From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] news links for march 30-31, 2002 @ drugwar.com
Date: March 31, 2002 at 4:16:28 PM EST
To: “spynews” <spynews@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: “rootsofteror” <rootsofterror@yahoogroups.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <FreedomNewsNet@aol.com>, “CRRH” <restore@crrh.org>, “cia-drugs” <cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Greetings all,
Happy Easter, joyous Passover, good Spring Solstice, and to all who
practice either no religion or those frowned upon by normal types, Happy
Day.
Here is the list of links for March 30-31, 2002, at
http://www.drugwar.com/index.shtm
If anyone has anything they’d care to submit for publishing, or has
press notices dealing with any aspect of the War on Drugs and it’s
repercussions, please feel free to contact me at either ptpeet@nyc.rr.com,
or ptpeet@drugwar.com
Thanks for your time, and as always, may you find some interesting
information you may have been unaware of.
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
editor www.drugwar.com
cont. High Times mag/.com
Peru Clears Aero Continente Founder of Drug Links (March 31, 2002)
”’The court concluded there was insufficient proof on the charges that
(Aero Continente founder Fernando Zevallos) laundered drug money,’ a court
official, who requested anonymity, told Reuters,” fop this report, but the
prosecutor is going to appeal. Prohibition of drugs leads to exactly the
problems of creating criminal cartels as did alcohol prohibition but drugs
are so astronomically great in profit potential that cartels are not only
buying up politicians at local levels, they are buy corporations and entire
national governments. It is not mystery why prohibition continues, and why
the War on Drugs is a “failure,” because it is an extremely lucrative policy
for Drug Warriors and their criminal drug trafficking compatriots,
Probe Into Cuba’s Possible “Sunken city” Advances (March 31, 2002)
Most mainstream researchers and scientists scoff at any suggestion that
there could be a basis in reality for the Atlantis myth, but strange
underwater formations resembling pyramids, roads, and buildings off the
coast of Cuba are leading many serious researchers to at least entertain the
idea that there lies a previously unknown civilization of undetermined age
lying in the shallow waters of the Caribbean. History isle full of romantic
unsolved mysteries that await only the intrepid explorers and dreamers to
bring them to light.
Colombia- The Paramilitary Effect (March 31, 2002)
Despite being a wanted man and recently convicted in absentia for organizing
illegal vigilante groups, and sentenced to 11 years in prison, Salvatore
Mancusio continues to operate with impunity, as an untouchable warlord no
one dares cross. Read more about how these right-wing murderous paramilitary
groups rampage through the Colombian countryside, adding yet more terror to
an already terrorized civilian population.
US Drugged Policy (March 31, 2002)
It is the precursor chemicals that enable the cocaine trade to flourish, and
it is a powerful, rich, American-beloved Colombian candidate that controls
that trade.
Meeting with Akha, Heroin Production (March 31, 2002)
Although Meth production is and will remain a factor in the region, it
appears to Matt McDaniel that heroin production is taking the front seat,
and that the Americans have no interest in trying to help curb this Akha
culture killing trade.
Enron and Bush- The Mystery Deepens (March 31, 2002)
“While 11,000 pages of documents were released on court orders this week,
most were heavily edited to blank out any useful information, particularly
e-mails. The government continues to hold back an additional 15,000
documents, citing privacy and security concerns, as well as the mysterious
Cheney logs,” notes this CBSMarket Watch article. Government by the people
seems a foreign idea to the Bush crew.
Texas- Snow Job (March 30, 2002)
The outstanding arrest records of these cops seemed too good to be true, and
sure enough, they were. Prohibition engenders corruption and flat out evil,
even on the part of the so-called Drug Warriors, hell, for that matter,
especially amongst the Drug Warriors
Forced Drugging OK’d By Federal Court (March 30, 2002)
The Federal Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit in the case of United
States vs. Charles Thomas Sell ruled March 27, 2002, that “defendants can be
forcibly drugged even though they haven’t been convicted of any charges and
pose no danger to themselves or others.” Somehow this just seems sort of
un-American. Isn’t this what the US accused the Soviets and Chinese
‘commies’ of doing to dissidents, whether they actually were or not? How can
we Americans really stand for this, and judges honestly justify this kind of
behavior?
Germany Begins Heroin Research Maintenance Research (March 30, 2002)
With an estimated 120,000 heroin addicts, German is ready to try what to US
prohibitionists is a radical approach- supply the addicts with their drugs,
thereby removing all incentives to commit crimes to supply their habits.
Gee, such common sense. When will the US populace begin to force their
prohibitionist politicians to come to their senses in similar manner?
Mexico Nabs Suspected Drug Kingpin (March 30, 2002)
Mexico gets ahold of yet another suspected drug kingpin, opening up yet
another slot for ambitious up-and-coming cutthroat entrepreneurs to move in
and take over the arrested boss’s little bit of the trade. Pick ’em off one
by one, and one by one, more step into to fill their shoes. Each arrest of
these kingpins usually leads to a spate of more extreme violence as
differing factions vie for control of the now headless cartel, knocking off
their competitors in flashy and bloody assassinations. Meanwhile there’s
never a diminishment in the flow of drugs into the US, ever.
FDA Urged To Ban Arthritis Drug (March 30, 2002)
Ah, here’s yet another legally produced, advertised, and mass marketed
killer pharmaceutical drug, this one billed as a cure for arthritis. Again,
the editor of drugwar.com feels it imperative to note the pot, which can
land a person in jail merely for possessing, much less producing, has never
killed even one person ever in thousands of years of human use both
medicinally and recreationally, but this company will get away with
marketing their killer drug, most probably suffering no more sanctions than
possibly a fine that would be hefty were it not for the astronomical prices
these companies charge US citizens and others around the world for their
drugs, ensuring mass profits a fine won’t even dent.
CIA’s Death Squad Body Count Continues to Pile Up (March 30, 2002)
Here’s more on those defenders of the American way, CIA death squads and
cold blooded killers.
J’Accuse- Bush’s Death Squads (March 30, 2002)
Remember, US death squads, these officially sanctioned assassins and
murders, these are not terrorists, they are defenders of freedom, liberty,
and the American way.
From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] M Is For Methadone- (methadone, withdrawls, and ibogaine…)
Date: March 30, 2002 at 10:25:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You write a really thoughtful and intelligent message and then apoligize for how long it was? 😉
I wanted to say that this is one of the most interesting collection of strange people who are articulate that I’ve ever found on the same list before!
The ibogaine information isn’t bad either 😉
A lot of you are probably gone for the holiday but I hope everyone has a great easter!
-carrie
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Please be sure to click the URL at top of this note to see and read the
numerous links to this topic.
Thanks for your time, and again, please excuse the length of this, my first
post to the Ibogaine list.
Peace,
Preston
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings – send greetings for Easter, Passover
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] M Is For Methadone- (methadone, withdrawls, and ibogaine…)
Date: March 31, 2002 at 12:34:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah, but if you’d done the Ibogaine, you could have written it up
for High Times (they’re not supportive of Ibogaine;…<
LOL, well Dana, you’ve answered that point pretty conclusively: I, even had
I pitched the darn thing, probably couldn’t have gotten it into HT, eh?
From an interestingly outoffocusedshroomland,
Peace,
Preston
O no. They woulda done it if it was you.
Gabe says it’s personal animus.
Dana/cnw
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] M Is For Methadone- (methadone, withdrawls, and ibogaine…)
Date: March 30, 2002 at 7:13:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah, but if you’d done the Ibogaine, you could have written it up
for High Times (they’re not supportive of Ibogaine;…<
LOL, well Dana, you’ve answered that point pretty conclusively: I, even had
I pitched the darn thing, probably couldn’t have gotten it into HT, eh?
From an interestingly outoffocusedshroomland,
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] M Is For Methadone- (methadone, withdrawls, and
ibogaine…)
Hello all,
This is my first posting to the ibogaine list, so please excuse the
length of this post.
Patrick Kroupa invited me to subscribe, and I must say I’m glad I
did.
What interesting exchanges I’ve already read in the last week or two.
Great
list folks.
Anyway, Patrick Kroupa made a point last week, which I unfortunately
can’t find the email of, in which he pointed out that he wasn’t sure what
folks meant by clean or getting clean, (sorry, I’m paraphrasing), as he
himself did dope until it didn’t do anymore what he wanted it to, he
tried,
through various trials and efforts, to quite, and finally did. (I guess
he
used ibogaine to kick off the kicking, but I’m not really sure of that.).
I
tend to agree with him in that we all use our own methods to “kick,” and
to
me, as unexperienced as I am on the use of ibogaine, it just seems yet
one
more tool among countless tools, and still, as powerful as it may be,
needs
to have that inner drive to quit already in place to work. If anyone has
another/more than one view on this, please give me
counterarguments/points
please
When I wrote the following article last year, (just about this time,
about 13 months or so ago, someone else on this list, (though I wasn’t
subscribed, I do know some of the participants here outside of this list)
suggested to me, “why force yourself to go through the pain of
withdrawls,
you are only giving in to the god of dope, try ibogaine,”
That would be me.
to which I
replied, I didn’t feel I need ibogaine to quit, (and as it turned out I
was
right), as I’d already made the decision to quit, (after COUNTLESS
TIMES),
first dope, by utilizing methadone, then kicking methadoneby suffering,
videogames, lots of pot, and hot baths listening to my favorite music.
Hot bath results can be improved by taking melatonin to stop spasming.
The
pretty horrid withrawls were bad, but I treated them as my trial by fire,
to
use an old, tired cliche. To me, though I personally haven’t tried
ibogaine,
(thought I’m tempted to help me kick my horrendous tobacco habit),
ibogaine
seems to be A catalyst, a tool for those who’ve already made the decision
they want to quit dope, but most certainly is NOT a magic postion that
works
with everyone.
Yeah, but if you’d done the Ibogaine, you could have written it up
for High Times (they’re not supportive of Ibogaine; in fact, Steve
Bloom demanded that we remove Ibogaine lit from the packages we send
out for Million Marijuana March supporters as the condition of any
grant to help with the postage, knowing I’d refuse and they wouldn’t
have to cough up.
To me, I feel the key is having a genuine desire to kick,
then finding the tool most conducisve to each individual’s individual
case.
High Times does give money to NORML, who spend it badmouthing the MMM
(“They only have ten people at most of them,” according to Keith
Stroup) and saying the Ibogaine advocacy proves I’m crazy.
Dana/cnw
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [LSRmail] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Date: March 30, 2002 at 8:02:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good to see there’s enough people on this list that some good old fashioned flaming is going on.
Dana/cnw
Hi Richard:
I quote from your post on January 06, 2002, “…One thing I welcome about LSR is that we don’t have to check our brains at the door”; however, on March 28, 2002, you mention “in a jail in Whitefish… smuggling in 5 OZ tubes of pure chap inside a tampon… it’s normal to have trouble with speech your first ninety days, while your lips are still drying out”. Now I know what Kierkegaard meant when he described The Concept of Irony (1841).
Regards,
Les
—– Original Message —–
From: <mailto:RichCBT@aol.com>RichCBT@aol.com
To: <mailto:leesmithjr@prodigy.net>leesmithjr@prodigy.net
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [LSRmail] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Les,
Isn’t it bad enough that you’ve invaded our list for the purpose of promoting your “holistic” recovery center? Now you have to let us in on your pseudo-philosophical posturings? Were we bad in some other life? Didn’t you read Kant’s Critique of Pure Bullshit? Is there a Hegelian antithesis that will come along to negate you, or at least synthesize you into something different? Now I know what Kierkegaard meant when he described The Sickness Unto Death. I am sick to death of you.
Regards,
Richard
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] M Is For Methadone- (methadone, withdrawls, and ibogaine…)
Date: March 30, 2002 at 8:00:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello all,
This is my first posting to the ibogaine list, so please excuse the
length of this post.
Patrick Kroupa invited me to subscribe, and I must say I’m glad I did.
What interesting exchanges I’ve already read in the last week or two. Great
list folks.
Anyway, Patrick Kroupa made a point last week, which I unfortunately
can’t find the email of, in which he pointed out that he wasn’t sure what
folks meant by clean or getting clean, (sorry, I’m paraphrasing), as he
himself did dope until it didn’t do anymore what he wanted it to, he tried,
through various trials and efforts, to quite, and finally did. (I guess he
used ibogaine to kick off the kicking, but I’m not really sure of that.). I
tend to agree with him in that we all use our own methods to “kick,” and to
me, as unexperienced as I am on the use of ibogaine, it just seems yet one
more tool among countless tools, and still, as powerful as it may be, needs
to have that inner drive to quit already in place to work. If anyone has
another/more than one view on this, please give me counterarguments/points
please
When I wrote the following article last year, (just about this time,
about 13 months or so ago, someone else on this list, (though I wasn’t
subscribed, I do know some of the participants here outside of this list)
suggested to me, “why force yourself to go through the pain of withdrawls,
you are only giving in to the god of dope, try ibogaine,”
That would be me.
to which I
replied, I didn’t feel I need ibogaine to quit, (and as it turned out I was
right), as I’d already made the decision to quit, (after COUNTLESS TIMES),
first dope, by utilizing methadone, then kicking methadoneby suffering,
videogames, lots of pot, and hot baths listening to my favorite music.
Hot bath results can be improved by taking melatonin to stop spasming.
The
pretty horrid withrawls were bad, but I treated them as my trial by fire, to
use an old, tired cliche. To me, though I personally haven’t tried ibogaine,
(thought I’m tempted to help me kick my horrendous tobacco habit), ibogaine
seems to be A catalyst, a tool for those who’ve already made the decision
they want to quit dope, but most certainly is NOT a magic postion that works
with everyone.
Yeah, but if you’d done the Ibogaine, you could have written it up
for High Times (they’re not supportive of Ibogaine; in fact, Steve
Bloom demanded that we remove Ibogaine lit from the packages we send
out for Million Marijuana March supporters as the condition of any
grant to help with the postage, knowing I’d refuse and they wouldn’t
have to cough up.
To me, I feel the key is having a genuine desire to kick,
then finding the tool most conducisve to each individual’s individual case.
High Times does give money to NORML, who spend it badmouthing the MMM
(“They only have ten people at most of them,” according to Keith
Stroup) and saying the Ibogaine advocacy proves I’m crazy.
Dana/cnw
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] M Is For Methadone- (methadone, withdrawls, and ibogaine…)
Date: March 30, 2002 at 10:50:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello all,
This is my first posting to the ibogaine list, so please excuse the
length of this post.
Patrick Kroupa invited me to subscribe, and I must say I’m glad I did.
What interesting exchanges I’ve already read in the last week or two. Great
list folks.
Anyway, Patrick Kroupa made a point last week, which I unfortunately
can’t find the email of, in which he pointed out that he wasn’t sure what
folks meant by clean or getting clean, (sorry, I’m paraphrasing), as he
himself did dope until it didn’t do anymore what he wanted it to, he tried,
through various trials and efforts, to quite, and finally did. (I guess he
used ibogaine to kick off the kicking, but I’m not really sure of that.). I
tend to agree with him in that we all use our own methods to “kick,” and to
me, as unexperienced as I am on the use of ibogaine, it just seems yet one
more tool among countless tools, and still, as powerful as it may be, needs
to have that inner drive to quit already in place to work. If anyone has
another/more than one view on this, please give me counterarguments/points
please
When I wrote the following article last year, (just about this time,
about 13 months or so ago, someone else on this list, (though I wasn’t
subscribed, I do know some of the participants here outside of this list)
suggested to me, “why force yourself to go through the pain of withdrawls,
you are only giving in to the god of dope, try ibogaine,” to which I
replied, I didn’t feel I need ibogaine to quit, (and as it turned out I was
right), as I’d already made the decision to quit, (after COUNTLESS TIMES),
first dope, by utilizing methadone, then kicking methadoneby suffering,
videogames, lots of pot, and hot baths listening to my favorite music. The
pretty horrid withrawls were bad, but I treated them as my trial by fire, to
use an old, tired cliche. To me, though I personally haven’t tried ibogaine,
(thought I’m tempted to help me kick my horrendous tobacco habit), ibogaine
seems to be A catalyst, a tool for those who’ve already made the decision
they want to quit dope, but most certainly is NOT a magic postion that works
with everyone. To me, I feel the key is having a genuine desire to kick,
then finding the tool most conducisve to each individual’s individual case.
Anyway, I’d love feedback on this.
After this article, at the above URl, there are TONS of links to
methadone and treatment. (after the technical stuff in the beginning page, I
turn to my own personal experiences and thoughts on the matter) (and by the
way, I’ve been off opiates for over a year now, and stick to the more
natural herbal type stress relieving medication, such as, uh, herb, and for
more religious communing with the natural world as a whole, fungus.;-))
Peace, and thanks for including me in this list, and Patrick, thanks again
for the invite to subscribe.
Preston Peet
editor www.drugwar.com
cont. High Times Mag/.com
(also, for your entertainment, here are some illustrated chapters from my
book Something in the Way, misadventure stories of a junky punkrockers
living in the streets of NYC, previously published in slightly different
form in other places, like the New York Waste in NYC- (the M is for
Methadone follow below)
Central Park Schizo- http://www.drugwar.com/pcentral_park_schizo.shtm
Haircut- http://www.drugwar.com/phaircut.shtm
Winterhold- http://www.drugwar.com/pwinterhole.shtm
http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id838/pg1/
m is for methadone
by Preston Peet (ptpeet@nyc.rr.com) – January 14, 2001
Temperature’s rising, fever is high, can’t see no future, can’t see no sky.
My feet are so heavy, so is my head. I wish I was a baby. I wish I was dead.
Cold turkey has got me on the run. Body is aching, goose-pimple bone. Can’t
see nobody. Leave me alone. My eyes are wide open, I can’t get to sleep.
One thing I’m sure of, I’m in at the deep freeze.
Cold Turkey has got me on the run. 36 hours rolling in pain, praying to
someone, free me again. Oh, I’ll be a good boy, so please make me well. I’ll
promise you anything, get me out of this hell!
Cold turkey has got me, oh, oh, oh, Cold turkey has got me on the run.
~ ~Cold Turkey, John Lennon/Yoko Ono (October 20, 1969)
Methadone (meth’e don’)-n.[< it’s chemical name] a synthetic drug, less
habit-forming than morphine, used in treating morphine addicts.
~ ~ Webster’s New World Compact School and Office Dictionary, 1982 [revised
edition]
This is pure unadulterated bullshit. Ask any methadone patient which drug is
easier to kick – Heroin, or Methadone – and they will tell you, quite
rightly, that Methadone is the more hellish “drug” of the two.
While Methadone has no discernible high, and affects the body for longer
(keeping withdrawals at bay for longer than heroin), once a person is
feeling the lack of Methadone, the difference is clear. Detoxing from
Methadone takes more time, a month or more at minimum, as compared to the
week or two maximum for Heroin.
Patients in Methadone Maintenance Treatment (MMT) must take their medication
every single day, or they get sick. Clearly, Methadone is habit-forming,
although admittedly in every case, heroin habits are already formed, or a
person cannot (or will not) be placed into MMT. So, ‘less habit-forming’ is
semantic in the above definition, and blatantly untrue.
In 1939 two scientists working for I.G. Farben, Otto Eisleb, and O.
Schaumann, at Hoechst-Am-Main, Germany, discovered an opioid analgesic which
after numbering compound 8909, they named Dolantin (Pethidine). Hopes that
it would be a new, non-addictive pain reliever, to take the place of
Morphine, just like Diamorphine (heroin), before it, came to naught.
However, because it was an extremely effective analgesic, the Germans used
the drug extensively throughout War World II.
(Unless otherwise noted, facts are taken from The Methadone Briefing, edited
by Andrew Preston, London: Waterbridge House, 1996).
From 1937 through the Spring and Summer of 1938, two other scientists
working for I.G. Farben, Max Bockmuhl, and Gustav Ehrart, were working with
similar compounds to Dolantin. Bockmuhl and Ehrart were searching for drugs
with certain characteristics, such as “water soluble hypnotics (sleep
inducing) substances, effective drugs to slow the gastrointestinal tract to
make surgery easier, effective analgesics that were structurally dissimilar
to Morphine-in the hopes that they would be non-addictive, and escape the
strict controls on opiates.”
On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820 (Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.
In the Autumn of 1942, I.G. Farben handed over the drug, codenamed “Amidon”,
to the German military for further testing.
The Nazis did not make any attempt to mass produce the drug, unlike
Pethidine, which by 1944 was being produced at an annual rate of 1600 kg.
One reason for this was given by Dr. K K Chen, an early American researcher,
after the war. He said that a former employee of the I. G. Farben factory
had written him, saying that the Germans had discontinued Polamidon use due
to its side effects. Chen decided that the Nazis had been giving their test
subject doses that were too high, causing nausea, overdose, etc.
After the war ended, the Allies divided up the spoils. I. G. Farben was in
an US-occupied zone so all its “intellectual capital” (patent, trade names,
and the like) came under US management. Along with the formula for Zyklon B,
a nerve gas that the Nazis used in some of their extermination programs,
Methadone was now an American possession.
One very common misconception is that Dolophine, one of the very first trade
names given to the drug, was derived from “Adolph”, in honor of the dictator
himself by the Nazis, and that in Germany it was called “Adolophine.” The
fact of the matter seems to be this name was not given the drug until after
the war, by the Eli-Lilly pharmaceutical company in America, which was given
control of the drug.
If there was any honoring of Hitler going on, it was by the Americans who
invented this urban legend. Dolophine most likely derives from the French
words “dolor” (pain), and “fin” (end).
Eli-Lilly, along with other companies in the US and Great Britain, began
clinical trials of Dolophine, marketing the drug as a pain killer and cough
suppressant. In 1947, Isabel et al, published their findings after
experimenting on both animals and humans. After giving doses of up to
200mg., four times a day, they found that there was rapid tolerance, and
euphoria. They also discovered that there were a bevy of adverse side
effects, such as, “signs of toxicity . . . inflammation of the skin . . .
deep narcosis and . . . a general clinical appearance of illness.” Once
again, just like the Nazis, the scientists were giving doses that were far
too high.
Morphine addicts responded well to Dolophine, but authorities decided that
it was potentially highly addictive. As reports of Dolophine addicts started
coming in, thedrug was taken of the market, only to resurface in the 1960s,
now known as Methadone.
Promoted by Drs. Marie Nyswynder, and Vincent Dole in the mid-1960s as the
most promising method of treating heroin addiction, MMT began to receive
more attention from the medical community, and gradually limited tests were
begun to gauge MMT’s efficacy in treating hardcore heroin addicts. Reading
through the National Institute of Health’s Consensus Development Statement,
titled “Effective Medical Treatment Of Opiate Addiction”, not much, it
seems, has changed. US scientists and doctors still have a lack of
compassion for their “test subjects” that echoes the Nazi doctors. In the
Diagnosis of Opioid Addiction section, the report states that if an addict
has failed after all tests to convince the doctor he/she is really a heroin
addict, the doctor can obtain further evidence by administering a “Naloxone
(Narcan) challenge test to induce withdrawal symptoms.” This instantly
induces withdrawals, and is what paramedics give overdose victims when
trying to resuscitate them dead on the sidewalk. I’ve seen it given to a
friend, and he was definitely not happy when jerking awake, sick as a dog.
It is sadistic torture giving Naloxone to someone simply, to prove that
they’re are an addict.
(end pg1)
There have also been allegations of pharmaceutical companies using mentally
ill patients in drug experiments, as reported in the New York Post (January
19, 1998). Alexander Cockburn made a comparison between Methadone and Prozac
in the New York Press (January 27-February 2, 1998), where he likened
Methadone patients to “compliant slaves.” He contended that Methadone is one
long running experiment at the sake of the addict, and his/her freedoms.
If there is one thing that I am not, it’s a compliant slave. But what I am
is someone who was always at risk of going out and banging a bag or three of
heroin (maybe, somewhere deep inside even still am, but I don’t buy that
“I’ve got a disease” 12-step rap, no offense to 12-steppers. Whatever it
takes).
Every time I would quit, eventually the urge to score would be overwhelming
and irresistible. I have seen reports, heard anecdotal evidence, and
personally experienced the incessant relapsing, the days of sickness, pain,
and cold, utter hell of having been clean and doing well, to only on a whim
go out and throw it all away. Again and again I had seen it and done it. I
know that it can be impossible for some people to stop and objectively look
at what they are doing, to have that be enough to arrest their habit. Like
the idea or not, Methadone can and has saved a lot of lives.
Of course, one has to already have the “high motivation for change” that has
been recently reported to be associated with successful MMT. Otherwise the
patient can and often does continue to use anything and everything else,
including dope, and I see it all the time. Some may take this to mean that
after all is said and done, it’s a person’s will power keeping them in line,
so why should they need the Methadone, except as a crutch?
Take a look at TV some time, at all the ads being run for new allergy pills,
new diet pills, new hair-grow pills, new all kinds of pills. Most, if not
all come with long drawn out warnings of adverse side effects, such as head
aches, nausea, stomach cramping, and fetal deformity in unborn children. Yet
these are all for medications that are most certainly not needed by anyone,
for any reason, except to make life a little easier, if one can believe that
from the purported side-effects the ads warn of.
Methadone is pushed the same way: “Why suffer kicking dope and getting
arrested when you can have our drug, cheap, supplied you, that will allow
you a ‘normal’ life? Never mind the awful kicking you may someday face, but
why quit? Stay on it for life if need be, you are an addict!” This is the
message.
It should be obvious that if Methadone does what it is advertised, then of
course folks should actively support it’s dissemination. But to me, a person
currently dealing with the realization that methadone only put off the hell
of kicking, with a much harder kick awaiting me when the decision to end its
use was recently reached, it isn’t obvious. Who is making the money from the
production and sales of Methadone? Why is Methadone more preferable than
simple Heroin maintenance?
(Other than for the blatant advantage of no longer taking the drug,
(herion), made illegal by the same folks who made MMT legal, that initiated
the addiction in the first place.)
There is also the fact that people who do drugs, illegal drugs, are by
definition, law-breakers. Law-breakers are in turn potential subversives, as
they are not inclined to toe the official line. What better way to get
control of a whole block of possible terrorists, rabble-rousers and
plain-old troublemakers than to arrange to supply their highly-addictive
drugs to them directly, through established clinics where they must come to
get their “fix”, where it is easy to keep records of all kinds, medical,
psychological, and otherwise on them all? Eli-Lilly is renowned for their
concentrating on the psycho-active drug market, like Prozac, so mightn’t
that be a worrying sign in regards to the control factors inherent in giving
out their addictive Methadone to addicts?
These are valid points, and they indeed worry me, giving me much pause for
thought. Especially in light of all the evidence of CIA, and other
intelligence agencies being involved with the smuggling of drugs over the
last thirty or forty years into the US, thereby contributing to the cause
and effect cycle that is evident in the whole War Against Some Drug
scenario, including the drug treatment industry. Methadone can and does
improve the “quality of life” of both the addict and those around him/her.
Yet it is a synthetic creation, and certainly not as clean as heroin could
be were it legal and under regulative control like alcohol, rather than in
the hands of hoodlums on street corners cutting it with poison and shit,
creating fodder for the private-prison/law enforcement/military-industrial
complex.
I spent a good number of years strung out. I make no bones about it, and
accept the responsibility. I swore many times that when I was ready to quit,
there would be no way I’d allow myself to go on MMT. But in 1996, after
years of hell, going cold turkey over and over only to use again,
consistently failing to quit on my own, MMT seemed the only way out, to get
away from the authorities butting into my life, and to avoid the sickness I’
d have to face kicking yet again. Now I’m finding that I’ve only put off the
kicking, and what I’m now going through is only the beginning.
The only good thing I can personally say about Methadone is that I was able
to use it to break old habits and change my perspective, and stop getting
arrested by asshole cops who made the stupidest jokes I’ve ever heard, and
who locked me up in filthier, more dangerous places than even I’d imagined
existed.
I certainly never, ever got ‘high’ nor dopey from Methadone, regardless of
how it affects some folk. There was no fun to it at all, it just helped me
keep away from heroin. But for the War Against Some Drugs and modern
prohibition, maybe it wouldn’t have had to be. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone
using it in the same fashion that I did, and it can do what it is supposed
to if the user wishes it to. I certainly wouldn’t advise it except that for
now, there are not all that many alternatives, except abstinence, which is
not for everyone.
I was a model patient, only going to the clinic once a week to pick up a
week’s supply. But I refuse to be a statistic for the system, nor their
fodder any longer.
(end pg 2)
Please be sure to click the URL at top of this note to see and read the
numerous links to this topic.
Thanks for your time, and again, please excuse the length of this, my first
post to the Ibogaine list.
Peace,
Preston
From: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [LSRmail] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Date: March 29, 2002 at 11:30:46 PM EST
To: <RichCBT@aol.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <ADDICT-L@listserv.kent.edu>, <12-Step_Coercion_Watch@yahoogroups.com>, <12-step-free@yahoogroups.com>, <apadiv50-forum@csd.uwm.edu>, <LISTSERV@listserv.kent.edu>, <lsrmail@yahoogroups.com>, <SRMail1@aol.com>, <sossaveourselves@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Richard:
I quote from your post on January 06, 2002, “…One thing I welcome about LSR is that we don’t have to check our brains at the door”; however, on March 28, 2002, you mention “in a jail in Whitefish… smuggling in 5 OZ tubes of pure chap inside a tampon… it’s normal to have trouble with speech your first ninety days, while your lips are still drying out”. Now I know what Kierkegaard meant when he described The Concept of Irony (1841).
Regards,
Les
—– Original Message —–
From: RichCBT@aol.com
To: leesmithjr@prodigy.net
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [LSRmail] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Les,
Isn’t it bad enough that you’ve invaded our list for the purpose of promoting your “holistic” recovery center? Now you have to let us in on your pseudo-philosophical posturings? Were we bad in some other life? Didn’t you read Kant’s Critique of Pure Bullshit? Is there a Hegelian antithesis that will come along to negate you, or at least synthesize you into something different? Now I know what Kierkegaard meant when he described The Sickness Unto Death. I am sick to death of you.
Regards,
Richard
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [LSRmail] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Date: March 29, 2002 at 6:59:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, RichCBT@aol.com, leesmithjr@prodigy.net
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, addict-l@listserv.kent.edu, 12-step_coercion_watch@yahoogroups.com, 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com, apadiv50-forum@csd.uwm.edu, listserv@listserv.kent.edu, lsrmail@yahoogroups.com, srmail1@aol.com, sossaveourselves@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi, why am I receiving all this junk? I signed on to the ibogaine list at mindvox, who is Lee Smith and what does any of this have to do with ibogaine?
I know some of the conversations drift all over the place but at least they’re written by people who did ibogaine and are at worst interesting, even when they are a little crazy.
But this is the third message full of junk from 10 other lists being sent to me. I don’t want to keep getting this please.
Carla B
MonaHolland1@aol.com wrote:
>>>Were we bad in some other life? Didn’t you read Kant’s Critique of Pure
Bullshit? Is there a Hegelian antithesis that will come along to negate you,
or at least synthesize you into something different? Now I know what
Kierkegaard meant when he described The Sickness Unto Death. I am sick to
death of you.<<
We were very bad…and we looked into the Abyss, and looking back at us, was Lee Smith, Jr.
–Mona–
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings – send greetings for Easter, Passover
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] . . .
Date: March 29, 2002 at 6:18:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello, to the people sending me all the personal mail, I can’t answer all
of it. Yeah, vitamin C may do something for you, you can go look it up:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ascorbic+acid+opiate+opioid
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ascorbic+acid+opiate
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ascorbic+acid+heroin
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ascorbic+acid+methadone
You can also go buy some and TRY IT.
Patrick
From: MonaHolland1@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [LSRmail] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Date: March 29, 2002 at 3:08:13 PM EST
To: <RichCBT@aol.com>, <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <addict-l@listserv.kent.edu>, <12-step_coercion_watch@yahoogroups.com>, <12-step-free@yahoogroups.com>, <apadiv50-forum@csd.uwm.edu>, <listserv@listserv.kent.edu>, <lsrmail@yahoogroups.com>, <srmail1@aol.com>, <sossaveourselves@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Were we bad in some other life? Didn’t you read Kant’s Critique of Pure
Bullshit? Is there a Hegelian antithesis that will come along to negate you,
or at least synthesize you into something different? Now I know what
Kierkegaard meant when he described The Sickness Unto Death. I am sick to
death of you.<<
We were very bad…and we looked into the Abyss, and looking back at us, was Lee Smith, Jr.
–Mona–
From: RichCBT@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [LSRmail] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Date: March 29, 2002 at 2:47:14 PM EST
To: leesmithjr@prodigy.net
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, ADDICT-L@listserv.kent.edu, 12-Step_Coercion_Watch@yahoogroups.com, 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com, apadiv50-forum@csd.uwm.edu, LISTSERV@listserv.kent.edu, lsrmail@yahoogroups.com, SRMail1@aol.com, sossaveourselves@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/29/2002 2:33:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, leesmithjr@prodigy.net writes:
His recent book hypothesizes the theory of a presumed “emergence” as a neurological basis with respect to the premise of a Cartesian duality and supports this with case histories of asomatognosia, capgras syndrome, Fregoli syndrome, confabulation, and other severe mental conditions. He eventually contrasts an ephemeral “nested hierarchy of meaning” vs. simply a “purpose for existence” as a sort of higher consciousness, and then later deduces that the brain creates the self as a “sum greater than the parts”.
This concept seems to have some valuable merit; however, from a philosophical perspective, this viewpoint may simply be another attempt to translate the Kantian “I” to the Hegelian dialectical synthesis that was dispelled by Kierkegaard in the 1800s (and again much later by the existentialists, some post-modernists, de-constructionists, and the “process thought” psychologists). I look forward to your comments.
Les Smith, CFO
“OM” / WNCREF
Les,
Isn’t it bad enough that you’ve invaded our list for the purpose of promoting your “holistic” recovery center? Now you have to let us in on your pseudo-philosophical posturings?
Were we bad in some other life? Didn’t you read Kant’s Critique of Pure Bullshit? Is there a Hegelian antithesis that will come along to negate you, or at least synthesize you into something different? Now I know what Kierkegaard meant when he described The Sickness Unto Death. I am sick to death of you.
Regards,
Richard
From: fuak <fuak@nirvanet.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] no need for a big budget film aronofsky
Date: March 29, 2002 at 2:40:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
requiem must understand the powers of iboga
– colton
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ascorbate
Date: March 29, 2002 at 1:57:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 01:27:33PM -0500], [Rop Halvor] wrote:
| Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) effects on withdrawal
| syndrome of heroin abusers
| by
| Evangelou A, Kalfakakou V, Georgakas P, Koutras V,
| Vezyraki P, Iliopoulou L, Vadalouka A Laboratory of Experimental
| Physiology,
|
| Faculty of Medicine,
<etc…>
Dude, whatcha got there appears to be an abstract, followed by pieces of
monographs which are much older and not related to the abstract wedged
into the start-part of your post type thing…
It’s interesting … but, subjectively, it doesn’t work. I’ve been
interested in life extension stuff for about as long as I’ve been
interested in drugs — which is to say, forever n ever… Among all the
detoxes I ever tried, I tried that one too. They had some study going in
the 70’s, I read it, I was already on 25gms a day of oral ascorbic acid,
plus ascorbyl palmitate (fat soluble C) plus… and obtained injectible
C. Went up to 100gms or so of IV’ing it…
My habit was not that insane yet, I was on, lessee, roughly 4grams a day
of heroin — stepped on, but one step before what landed in the glassine
bags on street corners, and 6mg Xanax, and couldn’t sleep anymore …
possibly ‘cuz I was IV’ing way too much cocaine as well.
It helped me sleep. That was about it. There are various other papers
linking C’s positive effects on people doing MMTP and shit like that, and
a warehouse full, linking C’s positive effects on just being alive and
stuff…
All of this IS very interesting, and it appears in a variety of places
aside from scientific literature. Scott Frank mentions this in his war
stories book, “Tales from the Geronimo” (which I think is outta print, and
sold maybe 5,000 copies… Though he’s now a screenwriter, selling
presumably many more copies of his movieZ), John Rechy also mentions it
someplace in his works… (It’s not Cities of Night… sumplace else…)
For what it’s worth, I’m on roughly 10-50,000 times the RDA of all water
solubale vitamins, lower doses of fat sol, 2-3 times the RDA of minerals,
and along with Dana, believe in that whole entire melatonin thing…
Roughly 20 warehouses full of literature demonstrate why this is positive;
and for all the stupid shit I’ve ever done to myself — and still do, I
smoke 2 packs a day, eat basically salt, grease, red meat and coffee …
all my readings are somewhere between excellent and super-good.
On the flipside, my mother is hitting 65 or so, has chain smoked since 17,
takes absolutely no care of herself, and is doing Just Fine. So perhaps
it’s just genetics. Everyone in my family appears to beat the shit out of
themselves physically, and all have lived long, miserable lives, dying in
their 70’s to 90’s, or committed suicide.
Whatever the case, swallowing 50 pills a day makes me Feel Happy Inside,
and if I think it’s doin’ sumthin’ positive, then I make it so.
However… It ain’t gonna unspring you. Or, it certainly didn’t do it
for me. Try it and lemme know.
Patrick
From: “Rop Halvor” <rophalvor@alloymail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ascorbate
Date: March 29, 2002 at 1:27:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) effects on withdrawal
syndrome of heroin abusers
by
Evangelou A, Kalfakakou V, Georgakas P, Koutras V,
Vezyraki P, Iliopoulou L, Vadalouka A Laboratory of Experimental
Physiology,
Faculty of Medicine,
University of Ioannina, Greece.
aevaggel@uoi.gr
In Vivo 2000 Mar-Apr; 14(2):363-6
ABSTRACT
BACKGROUND: Ascorbic acid (vitamin C), administered orally in high doses
has been observed to relieve pain and reduce opioid use in cancer
patients. In vitro studies have also shown that antioxidants, such as
vitamin C, may, at high concentrations, inhibit the endogenous opioid
degrading metalloenzyme and increase endorphin levels. In the present
study the effects of oral administration of high doses of vitamin C on
withdrawal syndrome of heroin abusers were investigated. MATERIALS AND
PATIENTS: Ascorbic acid at doses of 300 mg/kg b.w/day, supplemented with
vitamin E (5 mg/kg b.w/day), was orally administered in two groups of
heroin addict subjects consisting of in-patients (Group A, 30 males) and
one of out-patients (Group B, 10 males), for a minimum of 4 weeks. The
group A in-patients were also administered the conventional (diazepam +
analgesic) medication. The results on the intensity of withdrawal
syndrome (WS), estimated according to DMS-III criteria, were compared to a
third group of heroin addict in-patients (group C, 30 males-control group),
treated only by conventional medication. RESULTS: The patients of the
vitamin C-treated groups (in-patients and out-patients) experienced mild
WS (in 46.6% to 50% of the subjects) in contrast to the control group
patients, who experienced mild WS in 6.6% of the cases.
The vitamin C-treated subjects expressed major WS ranging from 10% to
16.6%, in contrast to the untreated subjects (control group), who
expressed a major WS in 56.6% of the cases.
CONCLUSIONS: The results indicate that high doses of ascorbic acid
administered orally, may ameliorate the withdrawal syndrome of
heroin addicts. Further studies are needed in order to estimate the dose-
and time-dependent effects of ascorbic acid treatment, and to clarify its
mechanisms of action in the withdrawal syndrome.
Ascorbate injected into
rats at the rate of 100 mg per kg body weight attenuated and abolished
the narcotic effects of morphine (Ghione, 1958). Ascorbate’s
detoxification of a wide variety of inorganic and organic poisons was
reviewed (Stone, 1972) and included Klenner’s study on the successful
megascorbic treatment of barbiturate poisoning, snakebite, and Black
Widow spider bites. It was also suggested in this review that
megasdoses of ascorbate be used in drug addiction (Stone, pp. 157-158,
l972). Two interesting papers appeared in 1976, one from Thailand which
showed that the sleeping time induced in rabbits by 15 mg of
pentobarbital could be progressively reduced by increasing amounts of
ascorbate injected five minutes prior to the pentobarbital. The sleeping
times in minutes for ascorbate dosages of 0, 250 mg, 500 mg, 750 mg were
50, 29 27, 23, and at 1,000 mg ascorbate the rabbits did not fall asleep
at all (Bejrablaya and Laumjansook, 1976). The other paper (Scher et
al., 1976) was originally presented in 1974 to the North American
Congress on Alcohol and Drug Problems, by these authors from the National
Council on Drug Abuse and the Methadone Maintenance Institute, and was
entitled, “Massive Vitamin C as an Adjunct in Methadone Maintenance and
Detoxification.” These authors realized that scurvy played a large part
in the drug abuse problem, but they only saw ascorbate as a means to
reduce some of the side effects of methadone administration like
constipation, loss of libido, and restless sleep. For this they used
about 5 g of ascorbic acid a day. It apparently never occurred to them
that by switching to sodium ascorbate and increasing their dosage by a
factor of 10, they could completely eliminate the ill-conceived Methadone
Program with all its problems and at the same time have a simple,
nontoxic, and elegant solution to the drug abuse problem.
The total amount of
ascorbate given a day will vary with the extent of the drug addiction.
It is never less than 25 g a day in spaced doses and can go to 85 g or
more per day. As a rough rule-of-thumb means of judging dosage:
a $50/day habit needs 25 to 40 g sodium ascorbate, $150 to $200/day about
60 to 75 grams. Judging dosage comes with experience, and any errors
should be on the high-dosage side because of ascorbate’s extremely low
toxicity and lack of side effects. The megadoses are continued for four
to six days. During this time no withdrawl symptoms should be encountered
(if any appear, increase the soldium ascorbate intake.) Generally, in two
or three days appetite returns and most patients begin to eat well and have
restful sleep for the first time since the chronic addiction began. One
of the first observations to be made of the patient on this
orthomolecular therapy is the rapid change in well-being: they feel
good. The mega doses are then gradually reduced to holding dose levels
of about 10 g per day of sodium ascorbate
The research of S.H. Snyder et al on the binding of morphine-like
substances to brain opiate receptor sites was recently reviewed (Snyder,
1977). They have shown that the largest amount of binding occurs in
cells from the very primitive limbic system deep within the brain. They
also showed that the very primitive hagfishes and sharks have as much
opiate receptor binding sites as the most advanced of the mammals,
monkeys, and man. They found that the properties of these receptor sites
in these early and most recent vertebrates were similar, indicating that
few changes have been made during the course of about 400 million years
of evolution. It is states that, “This suggested that the opiate
receptor is normally concerned with receiving some molecule that has
remained the same throughout evolution….possibly a neurotransmitter
which acts at these sites.” Also the presence of high levels of sodium
helps dislodge the narcotic from the receptor sites.
We speculate that these binding sites were evolved in the early
vertebrates to concentrate and localize, from the very low concentrations
existing in these animals, the electronically labile ascorbate molecules,
which aid in neurotransmission. The fact that these sites bind narcotics
is purely happenstance, because of a possible similarity in molecular
shape. There does not seem to be any obvious physiological evolutionary
reason for concentrating narcotics in the nerve endings of this newly
developing control system, whereas there may have been a great need to
concentrate and obtain high levels of ascorbate at synpases to aid is
efficient nerve impulse transmission. Ascorbate is a molecule that
appears to have changed little in the last 400 million years and was
present on the evolutionary scene long before the fishes appeared (Sone,
1977a). If this hypothesis is valid, then the receptor sites should be
renamed “ascorbate receptors” instead of “opiate receptors.” It should
not be difficult to experimentally test the validity of these theoretical
considerations.
—
_______________________________________________
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Should have read: effects of chronic fatigue/REM depletion on cannabis users
Date: March 29, 2002 at 11:29:15 AM EST
To: Kenneth Alper <kra1@nyu.edu>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, actupny@panix.com, “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>, GroveDS@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
How do we know the effect is not just damage from chronic fatigue?
that it might not just be erased by regular use of melatonin?
Dana/cnw
Below is a critique by Harrison Pope in the Journal of the American
Medical Association of a recent high profile article (attached here as a
PDF) on cannabis and cognitive functioning.
Vol. 287 No. 9,
March 6, 2002
Editorial
Cannabis, Cognition, and Residual Confounding
Harrison G. Pope, Jr, MD
In this issue of THE JOURNAL, Solowij and colleagues1 report a variety of
neuropsychological deficits in long-term cannabis users who were
tested a median of
17 hours after their last reported cannabis intake. Their findings of
impairments in
memory and attention are not surprising since several large and
well-controlled studies
have found similar deficits on neuropsychological tests administered
to long-term
cannabis users after 12 to 72 hours of abstinence.2-5 If these
deficits are brief and
reversible (ie, due to a residue of cannabinoids lingering in the
brain or to withdrawal
effects from abruptly stopping the drug), they might not be a serious
threat. However, if
these deficits are prolonged or irreversible (ie, due to
neurotoxicity from years of
cumulative cannabis exposure), they become a matter of grave concern.
The findings
of Solowij and colleagues favor the latter possibility in that
longer-term cannabis users
in the study often showed significantly greater deficits than
shorter-term users, and
neuropsychological performance measures were often negatively correlated with
lifetime duration of use. Furthermore, these correlations could not
be explained by
greater withdrawal symptoms or heavier recent cannabis consumption among the
longer-term users. Solowij and colleagues1 conclude that “our results
confirm that
cognitive impairments develop as a result of prolonged cannabis use .
. . and [that]
they worsen with increasing years of use.”
The findings reported by these leading researchers must be evaluated
carefully. First,
Solowij et al report only an association between lifetime duration of
cannabis use and
impairment at 17 hours since last cannabis use and therefore cannot
extrapolate from
this finding to infer whether impairment persists for longer periods.
Second, the
strength of the evidence for an association, even at the 17-hour mark, must be
evaluated in context with other reports. Previous data from Solowij
favor the possibility
of persistent deficits associated with lifetime duration of cannabis
exposure.6 However,
the weight of evidence from other studies seems tilted in the
opposite direction. For
example, a recent meta-analysis of neuropsychological studies of
long-term marijuana
users found no significant evidence for deficits in 7 of 8
neuropsychological ability
areas and only a small effect size (ie, 0.23 SD units; 99% confidence interval,
0.03-0.43) for the remaining area of learning.7 Another recent study5 from our
laboratory, published subsequent to this meta-analysis, found
virtually no significant
differences between 108 heavy cannabis users and 72 controlsscreened to
exclude those with current psychiatric disorders, medication use, or
any history of
significant use of other drugs or alcoholon a battery of 10
neuropsychological tests
after 28 days of supervised abstinence from the drug. In addition, no
significant
associations were found between the number of episodes of lifetime
cannabis use and
any of the test scores at day 28 even though the heavy users had
smoked a median
of about 15 000 times over periods ranging from 10 to 33 years.5
Further analysis of
these data for associations between lifetime use and performance at
day 0 and day 1
of abstinence revealed trends that were almost always in the same
direction as those
reported by Solowij et al,1 but the effect sizes were much smaller
(unpublished data).
We also analyzed the possible reasons for the difference between our
study5 and that
of Solowij et al in the strength of association between duration of
use and performance
after 1 day of abstinence. The participants in the 2 studies reported
very similar
degrees of cannabis exposure, and the neuropsychological tests
administered were
generally similar or even identical. Both studies had similar sample
sizes and thus
similar statistical power. Therefore, the most likely remaining
explanation would seem to
be lack of comparability between the exposed and nonexposed groups
within one or
both studies with respect to factors associated with the outcomes of
interest (ie,
residual confounding).
For example, cannabis users in the study by Solowij et al were
seeking treatment for
cannabis dependence, whereas controls were recruited from the general
population by
advertisement. Individuals seeking clinical treatment for cannabis
dependence might
exhibit higher levels of depression, anxiety, or
attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder
than other cannabis users, and all of these psychiatric syndromes
produce deficits on
neuropsychological testing.8-10 Some cannabis users seek treatment because they
have gotten into trouble with the law and so might have higher levels
of antisocial
behavior than other users. Antisocial behavior is also linked to
neuropsychological
deficits.11
Although Solowij and colleagues excluded subjects with psychotic
disorders or current
drug or alcohol dependence (other than cannabis), subjects with
depression, anxiety
disorders, or other psychiatric conditions were not excluded. Also,
subjects receiving
prescription psychiatric medications, such as benzodiazepines or
antidepressants, that
can impair cognitive function were also not excluded.12, 13 In our
study,5 subjects
exhibiting any current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders, Fourth
Edition Axis I disorder (other than simple phobia or social phobia)
or taking any
psychoactive prescription medication were excluded. Thus, confounding factors
associated with treatment seeking are possible explanations for the
larger effect sizes
in the study by Solowij et al. However, for this to be correct,
cannabis users in the study
by Solowij et al would have to have had more psychopathology or
medication use than
the controls, and the longer-term users, in turn must have had a
higher prevalence of
these features than the shorter-term users.
However, confounding can bias results in both directions. For
instance, one might
argue that excluding cannabis users with current psychiatric
disorders or currently using
medications would select in favor of unusually healthy long-term
users who performed
better on testing than the average of the overall population from
which they were
drawn. Moreover, cannabis use might cause or exacerbate anxiety or depressive
disorders and hence be indirectly to blame for any neuropsychological
impairment that
these disorders create. This is a slightly different assertion,
however, from the claim that
cannabis impairs cognitive function directly.
Confounders associated with treatment seeking represent only 1 of the
many problems
that threaten naturalistic studies of substance abusers. Another is
the problem of
adjustment for premorbid differences between groups. Lacking a
historical measure of
cognitive function, which is based on testing subjects before they
were first exposed to
cannabis, leads to the question of whether current differences observed between
groups are due to cannabis use or to some difference in premorbid
cognitive ability for
which adjustment was not made. By matching groups on measures of intellectual
functioning that are relatively resilient to brain injury, Solowij
and colleagues have done
their best to equalize the groups on premorbid cognitive abilities.
But since the 33
controls were recruited at 1 site and the 102 cannabis users at 3
sites in different
geographic settings, the possibility of residual confounding due to subtle
sociodemographic differences between groups cannot be entirely dismissed.
Two of these sociodemographic differences in the group of longer-term
cannabis users,
namely the larger proportion of men and the significantly greater age
of these subjects,
are particularly important. Yet comparisons between the groups were
performed without
adjustment for sex, and some comparisons were also performed without
adjustment for
age, except in specific cases in which age correlated significantly
with a particular
outcome variable. However, it is hazardous to use significance
testing instead of
change-in-estimate criteria to exclude a potential confounding variable from
adjustment. Such variables may still change the estimate of the
effect considerably,
even if they are not statistically significant, yielding residual
confounding once again.14,
15 This is particularly worrisome with the age variable, because age
differed to a
significant degree between study groups and is also highly associated
with cognitive
function. For example, on the Rey Auditory Verbal Learning Test,
where Solowij et al
demonstrated the largest cannabis-associated deficits, both increased
age and male
sex have been shown to be associated with poorer performance,16 but
the effect sizes
shown in Table 3 of the study were not adjusted for either age or sex.
Solowij and colleagues are aware of these limitations, and show (in
Table 4 of their
article) that even after adjusting for age (but not for sex), longer
duration of cannabis
use is associated with deficits on several key performance measures,
although at a
more modest level of significance. However, 47% of the long-term
cannabis users also
had a history of regular use of, dependence on, or treatment for
alcohol or other drugs
besides cannabis, introducing another possible confounder.
Given the minefield of possible confounding, should naturalistic
studies of drug users
be presumed untrustworthy or be abandoned entirely? As Solowij and
colleagues point
out, retrospective designs are the most efficient way to assess the
long-term cognitive
effects of cannabis consumption. Prospective designs would be
extremely expensive,
time-consuming, and in some cases unethical. Thus, despite all of
their limitations,
retrospective studies remain an important tool for answering these
important questions.
In conclusion, currently available scientific evidence shows that
almost certainly, some
cognitive deficits persist for hours or days after acute intoxication
with cannabis has
subsided. The consensus across studies is strong enough to discount
the likelihood
that this finding can be explained by any combination of confounders.
But whether
these deficits increase with increasing years of cannabis exposure
remains uncertain.
On this question, the numerous potential confounding variables make
it difficult to
determine whether cognitive impairments are attributable to cannabis
use or due to
other factors. Even if lifetime duration of cannabis use is
associated with greater
impairment after 17 hours of abstinence, the data are insufficient to
know whether
greater impairment would be present a week or a month later. Despite
the important
contributions of this new study, we must still live with uncertainty.
Author/Article Information
Author Affiliation: Biological Psychiatry Laboratory, McLean
Hospital, Harvard Medical
School, Belmont, Mass.
Corresponding Author and Reprints: Harrison G. Pope, Jr, MD,
Biological Psychiatry
Laboratory, McLean Hospital, 115 Mill St, Belmont, MA 02478 (e-mail:
pope@mclean.harvard.edu).
Editorials represent the opinions of the authors and THE JOURNAL and
not those of
the American Medical Association.
Financial Disclosure: This work was supported in part by grant DA10346 from the
National Institute on Drug Abuse.
REFERENCES
1.
Solowij N, Stephens RS, Roffman RA, et al.
Cognitive functioning of long-term heavy cannabis users seeking treatment.
JAMA. 2002;287:1123-1131.
ABSTRACT | FULL TEXT | PDF | MEDLINE
2.
Block RI, Ghoneim MM.
Effects of chronic marijuana use on human cognition.
Psychopharmacology. 1993;110:219-228.
MEDLINE
3.
Pope HG Jr, Yurgelun-Todd D.
The residual cognitive effects of heavy marijuana use in college students.
JAMA. 1996;275:521-527.
MEDLINE
4.
Fletcher JM, Page B, Francis DJ, et al.
Cognitive correlates of long-term cannabis use in Costa Rican men.
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1996;53:1051-1057.
MEDLINE
5.
Pope HG Jr, Gruber AJ, Hudson JI, Huestis MA, Yurgelun-Todd D.
Neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users.
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001;58:909-915.
ABSTRACT | FULL TEXT | PDF | MEDLINE
6.
Solowij N. Cannabis and Cognitive Functioning. Cambridge, England: Cambridge
University Press; 1998.
7.
Grant I, Gonzalez R, Carey C, Natarajan L.
Long-term neurocognitive consequences of marijuana: a meta-analytic study.
In: National Institute on Drug Abuse Workshop on Clinical
Consequences of Marijuana;
August 13, 2001; Rockville, Md. Available at:
http://www.nida.nih.gov/MeetSum/marijuanaabstracts.html. Accessibility
verified February 5, 2001.
8.
Mialet JP, Pope HG Jr, Yurgelun-Todd D.
Impaired attention in depressive states: a non-specific deficit?
Psychol Med. 1996;26:1009-1020.
MEDLINE
9.
Eysenck MW.
Anxiety and cognitive functioning.
In: Burrows GD, Roth M, Noyes R, eds.
Handbook of Anxiety. Vol 3. Amsterdam, theNetherlands: Elsevier;
1990:419-435.
10.
Barkley R.
Behavioral inhibition, sustained attention, and executive functions:
constructing a
unifying theory of ADHD.
Psychol Bull. 1997;121:65-94.
MEDLINE
11.
Morgan AB, Lilienfeld SO.
A meta-analytic review of the relation between antisocial behavior and
neuropsychological measures of executive function.
Clin Psychol Rev. 2000;20:113-136.
MEDLINE
12.
Lucki I, Rickels K, Geller AM.
Chronic use of benzodiazepines and psychomotor and cognitive test performance.
Psychopharmacology.1986;88:426-433.
MEDLINE
13.
Amado-Boccara I, Gougoulis N, Poirier Littre MF, Galinowski A, Loo H.
Effects of antidepressants on cognitive functions: a review.
Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 1995;19:479-493.
MEDLINE
14.
Greenland S.
Modeling and variable selection in epidemiologic analysis.
Am J Public Health. 1989;79:340-349.
MEDLINE
15.
Rothman KJ, ed, Greenland S, ed.
Modern Epidemiology, 2nd ed. Philadelphia, Pa:
Lippincott-Raven; 1998:256-257.
16.
Bleecker ML, Bolla-Wilson K, Agnew J, Meyers DA.
Age-related sex differences in verbal memory.
J Clin Psychol. 1988;44:403-411.
MEDLINE
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Brazilian Ibogaine Treatments
Date: March 29, 2002 at 1:03:05 AM EST
To: Kenneth Alper <kra1@nyu.edu>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, actupny@panix.com, “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>, GroveDS@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
How do we know the effect is not just damage from chronic fatigue?
that it might not just be erased by regular use of melatonin?
Dana/cnw
Below is a critique by Harrison Pope in the Journal of the American
Medical Association of a recent high profile article (attached here as a
PDF) on cannabis and cognitive functioning.
Vol. 287 No. 9,
March 6, 2002
Editorial
Cannabis, Cognition, and Residual Confounding
Harrison G. Pope, Jr, MD
In this issue of THE JOURNAL, Solowij and colleagues1 report a variety of
neuropsychological deficits in long-term cannabis users who were
tested a median of
17 hours after their last reported cannabis intake. Their findings of
impairments in
memory and attention are not surprising since several large and
well-controlled studies
have found similar deficits on neuropsychological tests administered
to long-term
cannabis users after 12 to 72 hours of abstinence.2-5 If these
deficits are brief and
reversible (ie, due to a residue of cannabinoids lingering in the
brain or to withdrawal
effects from abruptly stopping the drug), they might not be a serious
threat. However, if
these deficits are prolonged or irreversible (ie, due to
neurotoxicity from years of
cumulative cannabis exposure), they become a matter of grave concern.
The findings
of Solowij and colleagues favor the latter possibility in that
longer-term cannabis users
in the study often showed significantly greater deficits than
shorter-term users, and
neuropsychological performance measures were often negatively correlated with
lifetime duration of use. Furthermore, these correlations could not
be explained by
greater withdrawal symptoms or heavier recent cannabis consumption among the
longer-term users. Solowij and colleagues1 conclude that “our results
confirm that
cognitive impairments develop as a result of prolonged cannabis use .
. . and [that]
they worsen with increasing years of use.”
The findings reported by these leading researchers must be evaluated
carefully. First,
Solowij et al report only an association between lifetime duration of
cannabis use and
impairment at 17 hours since last cannabis use and therefore cannot
extrapolate from
this finding to infer whether impairment persists for longer periods.
Second, the
strength of the evidence for an association, even at the 17-hour mark, must be
evaluated in context with other reports. Previous data from Solowij
favor the possibility
of persistent deficits associated with lifetime duration of cannabis
exposure.6 However,
the weight of evidence from other studies seems tilted in the
opposite direction. For
example, a recent meta-analysis of neuropsychological studies of
long-term marijuana
users found no significant evidence for deficits in 7 of 8
neuropsychological ability
areas and only a small effect size (ie, 0.23 SD units; 99% confidence interval,
0.03-0.43) for the remaining area of learning.7 Another recent study5 from our
laboratory, published subsequent to this meta-analysis, found
virtually no significant
differences between 108 heavy cannabis users and 72 controlsscreened to
exclude those with current psychiatric disorders, medication use, or
any history of
significant use of other drugs or alcoholon a battery of 10
neuropsychological tests
after 28 days of supervised abstinence from the drug. In addition, no
significant
associations were found between the number of episodes of lifetime
cannabis use and
any of the test scores at day 28 even though the heavy users had
smoked a median
of about 15 000 times over periods ranging from 10 to 33 years.5
Further analysis of
these data for associations between lifetime use and performance at
day 0 and day 1
of abstinence revealed trends that were almost always in the same
direction as those
reported by Solowij et al,1 but the effect sizes were much smaller
(unpublished data).
We also analyzed the possible reasons for the difference between our
study5 and that
of Solowij et al in the strength of association between duration of
use and performance
after 1 day of abstinence. The participants in the 2 studies reported
very similar
degrees of cannabis exposure, and the neuropsychological tests
administered were
generally similar or even identical. Both studies had similar sample
sizes and thus
similar statistical power. Therefore, the most likely remaining
explanation would seem to
be lack of comparability between the exposed and nonexposed groups
within one or
both studies with respect to factors associated with the outcomes of
interest (ie,
residual confounding).
For example, cannabis users in the study by Solowij et al were
seeking treatment for
cannabis dependence, whereas controls were recruited from the general
population by
advertisement. Individuals seeking clinical treatment for cannabis
dependence might
exhibit higher levels of depression, anxiety, or
attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder
than other cannabis users, and all of these psychiatric syndromes
produce deficits on
neuropsychological testing.8-10 Some cannabis users seek treatment because they
have gotten into trouble with the law and so might have higher levels
of antisocial
behavior than other users. Antisocial behavior is also linked to
neuropsychological
deficits.11
Although Solowij and colleagues excluded subjects with psychotic
disorders or current
drug or alcohol dependence (other than cannabis), subjects with
depression, anxiety
disorders, or other psychiatric conditions were not excluded. Also,
subjects receiving
prescription psychiatric medications, such as benzodiazepines or
antidepressants, that
can impair cognitive function were also not excluded.12, 13 In our
study,5 subjects
exhibiting any current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders, Fourth
Edition Axis I disorder (other than simple phobia or social phobia)
or taking any
psychoactive prescription medication were excluded. Thus, confounding factors
associated with treatment seeking are possible explanations for the
larger effect sizes
in the study by Solowij et al. However, for this to be correct,
cannabis users in the study
by Solowij et al would have to have had more psychopathology or
medication use than
the controls, and the longer-term users, in turn must have had a
higher prevalence of
these features than the shorter-term users.
However, confounding can bias results in both directions. For
instance, one might
argue that excluding cannabis users with current psychiatric
disorders or currently using
medications would select in favor of unusually healthy long-term
users who performed
better on testing than the average of the overall population from
which they were
drawn. Moreover, cannabis use might cause or exacerbate anxiety or depressive
disorders and hence be indirectly to blame for any neuropsychological
impairment that
these disorders create. This is a slightly different assertion,
however, from the claim that
cannabis impairs cognitive function directly.
Confounders associated with treatment seeking represent only 1 of the
many problems
that threaten naturalistic studies of substance abusers. Another is
the problem of
adjustment for premorbid differences between groups. Lacking a
historical measure of
cognitive function, which is based on testing subjects before they
were first exposed to
cannabis, leads to the question of whether current differences observed between
groups are due to cannabis use or to some difference in premorbid
cognitive ability for
which adjustment was not made. By matching groups on measures of intellectual
functioning that are relatively resilient to brain injury, Solowij
and colleagues have done
their best to equalize the groups on premorbid cognitive abilities.
But since the 33
controls were recruited at 1 site and the 102 cannabis users at 3
sites in different
geographic settings, the possibility of residual confounding due to subtle
sociodemographic differences between groups cannot be entirely dismissed.
Two of these sociodemographic differences in the group of longer-term
cannabis users,
namely the larger proportion of men and the significantly greater age
of these subjects,
are particularly important. Yet comparisons between the groups were
performed without
adjustment for sex, and some comparisons were also performed without
adjustment for
age, except in specific cases in which age correlated significantly
with a particular
outcome variable. However, it is hazardous to use significance
testing instead of
change-in-estimate criteria to exclude a potential confounding variable from
adjustment. Such variables may still change the estimate of the
effect considerably,
even if they are not statistically significant, yielding residual
confounding once again.14,
15 This is particularly worrisome with the age variable, because age
differed to a
significant degree between study groups and is also highly associated
with cognitive
function. For example, on the Rey Auditory Verbal Learning Test,
where Solowij et al
demonstrated the largest cannabis-associated deficits, both increased
age and male
sex have been shown to be associated with poorer performance,16 but
the effect sizes
shown in Table 3 of the study were not adjusted for either age or sex.
Solowij and colleagues are aware of these limitations, and show (in
Table 4 of their
article) that even after adjusting for age (but not for sex), longer
duration of cannabis
use is associated with deficits on several key performance measures,
although at a
more modest level of significance. However, 47% of the long-term
cannabis users also
had a history of regular use of, dependence on, or treatment for
alcohol or other drugs
besides cannabis, introducing another possible confounder.
Given the minefield of possible confounding, should naturalistic
studies of drug users
be presumed untrustworthy or be abandoned entirely? As Solowij and
colleagues point
out, retrospective designs are the most efficient way to assess the
long-term cognitive
effects of cannabis consumption. Prospective designs would be
extremely expensive,
time-consuming, and in some cases unethical. Thus, despite all of
their limitations,
retrospective studies remain an important tool for answering these
important questions.
In conclusion, currently available scientific evidence shows that
almost certainly, some
cognitive deficits persist for hours or days after acute intoxication
with cannabis has
subsided. The consensus across studies is strong enough to discount
the likelihood
that this finding can be explained by any combination of confounders.
But whether
these deficits increase with increasing years of cannabis exposure
remains uncertain.
On this question, the numerous potential confounding variables make
it difficult to
determine whether cognitive impairments are attributable to cannabis
use or due to
other factors. Even if lifetime duration of cannabis use is
associated with greater
impairment after 17 hours of abstinence, the data are insufficient to
know whether
greater impairment would be present a week or a month later. Despite
the important
contributions of this new study, we must still live with uncertainty.
Author/Article Information
Author Affiliation: Biological Psychiatry Laboratory, McLean
Hospital, Harvard Medical
School, Belmont, Mass.
Corresponding Author and Reprints: Harrison G. Pope, Jr, MD,
Biological Psychiatry
Laboratory, McLean Hospital, 115 Mill St, Belmont, MA 02478 (e-mail:
pope@mclean.harvard.edu).
Editorials represent the opinions of the authors and THE JOURNAL and
not those of
the American Medical Association.
Financial Disclosure: This work was supported in part by grant DA10346 from the
National Institute on Drug Abuse.
REFERENCES
1.
Solowij N, Stephens RS, Roffman RA, et al.
Cognitive functioning of long-term heavy cannabis users seeking treatment.
JAMA. 2002;287:1123-1131.
ABSTRACT | FULL TEXT | PDF | MEDLINE
2.
Block RI, Ghoneim MM.
Effects of chronic marijuana use on human cognition.
Psychopharmacology. 1993;110:219-228.
MEDLINE
3.
Pope HG Jr, Yurgelun-Todd D.
The residual cognitive effects of heavy marijuana use in college students.
JAMA. 1996;275:521-527.
MEDLINE
4.
Fletcher JM, Page B, Francis DJ, et al.
Cognitive correlates of long-term cannabis use in Costa Rican men.
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1996;53:1051-1057.
MEDLINE
5.
Pope HG Jr, Gruber AJ, Hudson JI, Huestis MA, Yurgelun-Todd D.
Neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users.
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001;58:909-915.
ABSTRACT | FULL TEXT | PDF | MEDLINE
6.
Solowij N. Cannabis and Cognitive Functioning. Cambridge, England: Cambridge
University Press; 1998.
7.
Grant I, Gonzalez R, Carey C, Natarajan L.
Long-term neurocognitive consequences of marijuana: a meta-analytic study.
In: National Institute on Drug Abuse Workshop on Clinical
Consequences of Marijuana;
August 13, 2001; Rockville, Md. Available at:
http://www.nida.nih.gov/MeetSum/marijuanaabstracts.html. Accessibility
verified February 5, 2001.
8.
Mialet JP, Pope HG Jr, Yurgelun-Todd D.
Impaired attention in depressive states: a non-specific deficit?
Psychol Med. 1996;26:1009-1020.
MEDLINE
9.
Eysenck MW.
Anxiety and cognitive functioning.
In: Burrows GD, Roth M, Noyes R, eds.
Handbook of Anxiety. Vol 3. Amsterdam, theNetherlands: Elsevier;
1990:419-435.
10.
Barkley R.
Behavioral inhibition, sustained attention, and executive functions:
constructing a
unifying theory of ADHD.
Psychol Bull. 1997;121:65-94.
MEDLINE
11.
Morgan AB, Lilienfeld SO.
A meta-analytic review of the relation between antisocial behavior and
neuropsychological measures of executive function.
Clin Psychol Rev. 2000;20:113-136.
MEDLINE
12.
Lucki I, Rickels K, Geller AM.
Chronic use of benzodiazepines and psychomotor and cognitive test performance.
Psychopharmacology.1986;88:426-433.
MEDLINE
13.
Amado-Boccara I, Gougoulis N, Poirier Littre MF, Galinowski A, Loo H.
Effects of antidepressants on cognitive functions: a review.
Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 1995;19:479-493.
MEDLINE
14.
Greenland S.
Modeling and variable selection in epidemiologic analysis.
Am J Public Health. 1989;79:340-349.
MEDLINE
15.
Rothman KJ, ed, Greenland S, ed.
Modern Epidemiology, 2nd ed. Philadelphia, Pa:
Lippincott-Raven; 1998:256-257.
16.
Bleecker ML, Bolla-Wilson K, Agnew J, Meyers DA.
Age-related sex differences in verbal memory.
J Clin Psychol. 1988;44:403-411.
MEDLINE
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 28, 2002 at 12:29:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Is the name of the supplier/manufaturer in Gabon mentioned?
Howard
In a message dated 3/28/02 12:04:19 PM, sandberg@onetel.net.uk writes:
The low dose root (not rootbark) capsules are interesting, and come,
pre-packaged and looking v. professional, from Gabon. It’s pricey, weight
for weight, but not too expensive if you get a result, I guess. I’ve
e-mailed with the guy who sells it, called Chiel Coenen, and HE did seem
a
little eccentric. He came over to the UK to visit me, but said he got too
drunk to meet up.
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 28, 2002 at 8:02:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
On [Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 07:55:04PM -0500], [Rop Halvor] wrote:
| Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
|
| I order here www.iboga.nl
|
| Any recomend please email or post.
|
| Thanks
To the best of my knowledge, the materials this dude is selling are
neither extract (Indra) nor HCl. He is selling the actual root bark —
although, in highly pretty, nicely printed, vitamin-style labelled
bottles.
I know exactly one anecdotal report of a guy who detoxed using it. He did
so by purchasing sumthin’ like 20 bottles of the materials, started
tossing the rootbark into his daily heroin intake; tapered downwards with
the heroin/upwards with the root bark; until he was doing only rootbark,
sumthin’ like 15 days out — and stepped off and had been clean for
sumthin’ like 2 months when I met him in London.
Nick may have more information — the dude was that headbanging, Crowley
deck readin’ Mohawk wearing, guy who sat next to us for like 45 minutes.
I think Dana was there too. He had the Pretty Bottle with him, and was
Radiating Joy and Happiness.
Whether what he did is common, or just Completely Fucking Crazy; who
knows. It seems to have worked for him.
Patrick
The guy’s name was Iain Williamson, a Tarot consultant, if we’ve got the
same person, and he seemed pretty OK despite looking pretty weird. I think
he used the low dose regime for a non-major alcohol problem and it worked
very well, though it could have been for drugs, can’t recall.
The low dose root (not rootbark) capsules are interesting, and come,
pre-packaged and looking v. professional, from Gabon. It’s pricey, weight
for weight, but not too expensive if you get a result, I guess. I’ve
e-mailed with the guy who sells it, called Chiel Coenen, and HE did seem a
little eccentric. He came over to the UK to visit me, but said he got too
drunk to meet up.
As possibly mentioned b4, it’s interesting the kind of people the drug gets
to represent it in these early stages of its emergence. Gave me a few
insights into myself, anyway!
Nick
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 28, 2002 at 11:52:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/28/02 11:30:12 AM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:
My advice now would be never to treat a couple together – or back to back-
which is what I did. He should have gone home but she wanted him to stay
for her experience and this has been too hard for him really.
Sometimes couples work well. Sometimes they Don’t. A key issue is who is in
charge. You or they?? If I had to make a decision I would say separately
works best and is easiest. Read my description of the treatment of a couple
at <www.ibogaine.org/clin-perspectives.html> example one under Long-Term
Effects. Talk about problematic situations?
Anyway all an experience. I have learnt a lot.
The valium doesn’t tend to work. I need some good sleeping pills, can anyone
recommend any?
In Panama and the Netherlands we found fluintrizepam the most effective
benzodiazepine. In the 1960s we used seconal. Most likely no longer
available. This information is provided for report purposes and not as
advice. However, the use of any sedative requires observation of the patient
so they don’t injure themselves. And, this all comes back to the advantages
of medical oversight. Working in hospitals is much easier than not.
Howard
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 28, 2002 at 12:05:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
on 3/28/02 10:47 PM, Nick Sandberg at sandberg@onetel.net.uk wrote:
Hi nick,
Interesting idea – think there could be something in your theory.
For everyones interest she is still here with me, still clucking but bearing
up. She has been very sick today physically but is prepared to stay here adn
see this thing through. It wasn’t idea as we had the couples two year old
here as well, adn the boyfriend who was doing really well is now suffering,
even though we have a whole community ehre who have really helped with the
child.
My advice now would be never to treat a couple together – or back to back-
which is what I did. He should have gone home but she wanted him to stay for
her experience and this has been too hard for him really.
Anyway all an experience. I have learnt a lot.
The valium doesn’t tend to work. I need some good sleeping pills, can anyone
recommend any?
Incidentally I gave a half an hour talk on ibogaine at a gathering about
archaic knowledge to about 300 people. It went down really well, lots of
interest, so the word is definately spreading here. A journalist from the
Guardian wants to do something on the treatments I am carrying out.
Give us a call sometime Nick.
Love hattie
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
on 3/26/02 6:15 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com at HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Well the situation has worsened. She is now throwing herself off the bed and
pacing around. Just says she cannot get warm, and the movements are
involuntary. The room is of course warm and she has plenty of blankets etc.
All extremely typical of withdrawal – how does one really tell?
Decided not to redose and let it run its course.
How soon can valium be administered?
Thanks for everyones replies, it is a help to have you all out there.
Guess you have to be prepared for everything, right?
Will keep you updated
Hi Hats,
See others have spoken about valium, etc, so won’t just repeat. Hope things
work out for her. Please let us know.
My experience, from listening to a lot of ibogaine stories, and trying to do
so without any desire to believe or disbelieve in the drug’s effectiveness,
is that there are simply quite a few people that the drug just doesn’t seem
to work for. Especially brits! My belief is also that a lot of people very
rapidly relapse, ie. 24 – 48 hours, but are unwilling to mention this to the
treatment provider for fear of getting hassle. I’ve had a regular supply of
ibo-users confide this to me.
If someone wants to go for re-treatment – great. But, personally, I think
it’s very important not to get caught up in results with the stuff. If it
works, great. If it doesn’t, oh well. It’s a bummer, but maybe there’s a
deeper thing going on that is blocking the drug’s effectiveness for someone.
I guess, theoretically, anyone receiving sufficient ibogaine should
experience considerably diminished withdrawal, possibly affected, over the
next few days, by how well their liver creates the metabolite, noribogaine.
Yet, clearly, this simply isn’t the case. Some people clearly DO experience
considerable withdrawal.
It’s guesswork, but my opinion is that there is a strong mind-body thing
going on here. The symptomology of withdrawal will be triggered by drug
abstinence but it’s also, imo, quite valid to also consider that it could
occur simply as a defensive response mediated by the mid-brain to avoid
intense anxiety. Meaning, that although the receptor sites associated with
drug withdrawal are sated by ibogaine’s agonist activity, the psychological
effect of the substance induces such fear at a subconscious level,
withdrawal symptoms are triggered simply because they represent the easiest
means to escape the situation – to get out, to withdraw. Put simply, the
body goes into withdrawal for psychological reasons, not neurological.
Certain patients may be highly susceptible to this effect for, as I believe
research has shown, the amygdala is “formatted” by our early experience to
react defensively to certain types of stimuli, and so, as the ibo enters the
system, the material it begins to release induces defensive responses,
subconsciously, because it simply isn’t capable of dealing with the
situation any other way. Certain types of cultural conditioning and early
trauma would leave people more susceptible here, hence a possible reason why
brits seem to do worse with ibo than other nation groups.
If this is happening, I doubt re-treatment will work, though you never know
with these things. There might be something that can be added to the ibo to
sedate the patient a little during the opening phase of the session, but
I’ve no idea here, I’m afraid.
don’t know if this helps
Nick
PS – though I couldn’t go, I heard the Release conference went well and much
ibo info was distributed
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 28, 2002 at 5:47:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
on 3/26/02 6:15 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com at HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Well the situation has worsened. She is now throwing herself off the bed and
pacing around. Just says she cannot get warm, and the movements are
involuntary. The room is of course warm and she has plenty of blankets etc.
All extremely typical of withdrawal – how does one really tell?
Decided not to redose and let it run its course.
How soon can valium be administered?
Thanks for everyones replies, it is a help to have you all out there.
Guess you have to be prepared for everything, right?
Will keep you updated
Hi Hats,
See others have spoken about valium, etc, so won’t just repeat. Hope things
work out for her. Please let us know.
My experience, from listening to a lot of ibogaine stories, and trying to do
so without any desire to believe or disbelieve in the drug’s effectiveness,
is that there are simply quite a few people that the drug just doesn’t seem
to work for. Especially brits! My belief is also that a lot of people very
rapidly relapse, ie. 24 – 48 hours, but are unwilling to mention this to the
treatment provider for fear of getting hassle. I’ve had a regular supply of
ibo-users confide this to me.
If someone wants to go for re-treatment – great. But, personally, I think
it’s very important not to get caught up in results with the stuff. If it
works, great. If it doesn’t, oh well. It’s a bummer, but maybe there’s a
deeper thing going on that is blocking the drug’s effectiveness for someone.
I guess, theoretically, anyone receiving sufficient ibogaine should
experience considerably diminished withdrawal, possibly affected, over the
next few days, by how well their liver creates the metabolite, noribogaine.
Yet, clearly, this simply isn’t the case. Some people clearly DO experience
considerable withdrawal.
It’s guesswork, but my opinion is that there is a strong mind-body thing
going on here. The symptomology of withdrawal will be triggered by drug
abstinence but it’s also, imo, quite valid to also consider that it could
occur simply as a defensive response mediated by the mid-brain to avoid
intense anxiety. Meaning, that although the receptor sites associated with
drug withdrawal are sated by ibogaine’s agonist activity, the psychological
effect of the substance induces such fear at a subconscious level,
withdrawal symptoms are triggered simply because they represent the easiest
means to escape the situation – to get out, to withdraw. Put simply, the
body goes into withdrawal for psychological reasons, not neurological.
Certain patients may be highly susceptible to this effect for, as I believe
research has shown, the amygdala is “formatted” by our early experience to
react defensively to certain types of stimuli, and so, as the ibo enters the
system, the material it begins to release induces defensive responses,
subconsciously, because it simply isn’t capable of dealing with the
situation any other way. Certain types of cultural conditioning and early
trauma would leave people more susceptible here, hence a possible reason why
brits seem to do worse with ibo than other nation groups.
If this is happening, I doubt re-treatment will work, though you never know
with these things. There might be something that can be added to the ibo to
sedate the patient a little during the opening phase of the session, but
I’ve no idea here, I’m afraid.
don’t know if this helps
Nick
PS – though I couldn’t go, I heard the Release conference went well and much
ibo info was distributed
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: was [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 11:52:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks! I have a lot to read. This is not directly ibogaine related by it’s one of the craziest things I’ve ever read which is so cool at the same time. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5926 .:vector:. On Wed, 27 March 2002, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote > > If you want to begin to investigate the complexities of why ibogaine works > goto: > > > > > > ogaine.html> > > If that isn’t enough try, > > And then do a full medline search for ibogaine < > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/>
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From: “Sascha Goldman” <sgoldman@email.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 27, 2002 at 8:53:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick thank you! Thank you, thank you. If you were here right now I’d kiss you. You have no idea what this means to me. You have no idea how many hours I’ve spent thinking of people who do ibogaine and what happens.
It is all you! You were crazy 10 years ago! You were crazy long before you ever did ibogaine. Whatever broke your mind it wasn’t ibogaine. Thank god. I’ve read it, I don’t understand it. It’s about heroin addiction, lust, computers, being arrested, mental illness, paranoia? I don’t know but right now it’s the most beautiful thing I have ever read. It’s dated 1992. Thank god.
I know you posted it as a joke but thank you.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:15:26 -0500
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
On [Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 04:40:32PM -0800], [Carla Barnes] wrote:
| That is one of the best things I’ve read about recovery and ibogaine.
S’okay. Highly smooshed and very fluffy, but danke schoen.
| I never knew it existed, why don’t you put it on Mindvox so its
| accessible to so many more people and can be found?
We will, it’s somewhere on some list of Things to Do; right now we’re
working on the Inside Parts so it can, uh, oh yeah, OPEN. Besides, there
are far more important works to restore to their proper place, such as,
fer instance, this!
http://www.eff.org/Publications/William_Gibson/agr1ppa.parody
Patrick
—
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From: Brian Mariano <brianmariano70@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 27, 2002 at 8:37:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Hattie,
I`m sorry to be able to reply only now,I`ve been
traveling and got online only now.How`s the present
situation?Getting better?
The feeling of not getting warm enough is definitely a
withdrawal symptom.Does her legs and lower back still
hurt?
How soon can valium be administered?
I guess you already administered the valium,so the
issue will be not to administer too much of that,even
in case she should feel partly uncomfortable.
Definitely not twice the recomended dosage.How soon
can it be administered nobody can really tell,unless
there have already been done studies on the
interaction of ibo and valium.I administer it if and
when withdrawals come and that is usually not earlier
than 8 to 12 hours post administration.It usually
helps them a lot,but beware,it could lead you to
subjectively feel the need to give the client more and
more of it.
Decided not to redose and let it run its course.
The redosing has been put in bad light in literature
and I think that it has to do with the death of a
female that has been given 23 mg/kg and additional
6 mg/kg just 3 hours afterwards! 29 mg/kg TOTAL!!
I used to administer my “erly victims” dosages ranging
from 13 to 22 mg/kg and I think now that the proper
dose is 15 mg/kg,regardless the sex.In similar cases
as you`re having right now I add 500 to 600 mg of IBO
Hcl about 24 to 36 hours after administration.Of
course not blidly – if one keeps on vomiting and is
physically exhausted from the ibo`s overstimulating
effect `n stuff then no additional dose of
course.Better if the client would eat a little bit few
hours before,rice or other light meals.Make sure she
drinks time to time!Water,not coffie of course.
As I have been lying there in silence it suddenly
struck me that of all
the
people I have treated there is always more of a
problem with women in that
they just don’t seem to feel it as much. Now this
goes against everything
written which says take more care with women,
they metabolise more
noribogaine ad keep it in the blood plasma for
longer etc.
Now maybe it is because I give a slightly lower
dose to women – 17mg/kg
rather than 18/19mg per kg – this is done because
of all the warnings and
even exclusion of females from human studies.
You see,I didn`t find significant sex-related
differences in the way people cope with ibo either.For
many of my female clients,both addicted and
not,ibogaine was a piece of cake and many male
clients were pretty done.Same dosage.
I have found that the men treated have been
nearly 100% success ad the
women
about 30%!!! this is quite a difference.
What do you mean with “success”? This may not be
ibo-related.
Brian
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 27, 2002 at 8:15:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 04:40:32PM -0800], [Carla Barnes] wrote:
| That is one of the best things I’ve read about recovery and ibogaine.
S’okay. Highly smooshed and very fluffy, but danke schoen.
| I never knew it existed, why don’t you put it on Mindvox so its
| accessible to so many more people and can be found?
We will, it’s somewhere on some list of Things to Do; right now we’re
working on the Inside Parts so it can, uh, oh yeah, OPEN. Besides, there
are far more important works to restore to their proper place, such as,
fer instance, this!
http://www.eff.org/Publications/William_Gibson/agr1ppa.parody
Patrick
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 27, 2002 at 7:40:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That is one of the best things I’ve read about recovery and ibogaine.
I never knew it existed, why don’t you put it on Mindvox so its accessible to so many more people and can be found?
Carla B
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 04:07:39PM -0000], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
| PK
|
| I thought folk were asking you to tell your Iboga story; what happened? Why
| u think it helped U
| How u now stay off and so on, no?
Andria,
I’ve done this, several times. The highly edited version came out nearly
two years ago, and appeared in a few places; the first one wuz here:
http://www.herointimes.com/feb01/detox.html
The same article is up in un-fucked, de-splattered format, on Nick’s site:
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
From: “Rop Halvor” <rophalvor@alloymail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 27, 2002 at 6:47:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi, I fill out form and order.
May order indra too, not taken it yet.
I don’t know states i am not in USA!
rop
—– Original Message —–
Rop,How can I order it in the states?Does it really work?Please let me know
what you thoughts are on it.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Rop Halvor” <rophalvor@alloymail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 7:55 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
I order here www.iboga.nl
Any recomend please email or post.
Thanks
rop
—
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 6:08:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
But I don’t get it? Why does it work.
What is it doing to stop addiction?
If you look at how the Bwiti tribe use it: in a coming of age ritual. They also
refer to the practice of eating Iboga root as “meeting your ancestors”. A
coming of age ritual has all but been lost in western society. It signifies
taking responsibility for oneself, and I believe this is integral to how
Ibogaine works with addicts, I know it did for me. It was about me finally
making some rational choices (which I had no previous experience with when it
came to drugs.. lemme see, If I shoot that black tar in my arm I might OD like
Jimmy? fuckit, bring it on).
which boiled down to: Do I want to live, or want to die? hum, well I tried the
dying thing and haven’t lived to my fullest a whole lot and dying sucks because
then I gotta come back and do all this shit all over again (i believe) so maybe
this living thing ain’t so bad after all.
“meeting your ancestors” could mean a variety of things. When I first read that
quote, I thought wow, I finally get to meet my great-great step uncle. well
that wasn’t the case for me… I believe this means glimpsing into past
experiences in this lifetime as well as other lifetimes. I “did” travel back in
time into my childhood and re-witnessed key events that were of signifigance to
my tendency to want to get loaded. Years of therapy couldn’t unravel my memory
quite the way Ibo did in about 18 short hours.
one thing is for sure:
physiologically Ibogaine eliminates withdrawal symptoms up to 95% (in my
experience as well as others). Psychologically it unlocks suppressed traumas in
what I experienced as a nurturing and safe place. Set and Setting mean a whole
lot in this puzzle as well.
Why does electricity work? I don’t know, it just does. I use it all the time
without questioning it.
In reference to the coming of age ritual thing, this was a common event in most
cultures before the Christian Inquisitions/Crusades came and ruined things
throughout Europe and beyond. I strongly feel that was when things took a turn
for the worse in society/civilization. Still remaining today are fragments of
this cultural practice, the most common practiced in western society is the
barmitzma (spelling?)
-dh
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 4:36:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Vector,
If you want to begin to investigate the complexities of why ibogaine works
goto:
<www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html>
<http://www.med.nyu.edu/Psych/ibogaineconf/
<http://www.ibogaine-research.org/Ibogaine-Research-Project/Areas/Abstracts/Ib
ogaine.html>
If that isn’t enough try, <http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/review-dotf.html>
And then do a full medline search for ibogaine <
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/>
After you read all of this material you will be at the same point of most of
the researchers in realizing the matter is not fully understood and as many
of them conclude in their papers, “further research is needed”.
Have fun.
Howard
In a message dated 3/27/02 3:58:50 PM, vector6@space.com writes:
On Wed, 27 March 2002, Gamma wrote
Ibogaine is an indole alkaloid.
I think Shulgin has it listed in Pihkal? or Tihkal? one of those two.
anyone
have either as reference?
It’s in Tihkal.
But I don’t get it? Why does it work.
What is it doing to stop addiction?
What I’m reading for example says the following.
Iboga alkaloids
Iboga alkaloids, from Tabernanthe iboga, Apocynaceae, are used to combat
fatigue, sleep and hunger, as well as being associated with secret societies
and religious practice in West and Central Africa. In larger quantities
the drug is hallucinogenic. Extracts of the plant also are used while
stalking
game. The principal alkaloid is ibogaine. Some of these are central nervous
system stimulants, some are cholineesterase inhibitors, others cause
hypotension
and bradycardia. These alkaloids are found in a number of other genera
in the family Apocynaceae.
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 3:57:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Wed, 27 March 2002, Gamma wrote > > Ibogaine is an indole alkaloid. > > I think Shulgin has it listed in Pihkal? or Tihkal? one of those two. anyone > have either as reference? > It’s in Tihkal. But I don’t get it? Why does it work. What is it doing to stop addiction? What I’m reading for example says the following. Iboga alkaloids Iboga alkaloids, from Tabernanthe iboga, Apocynaceae, are used to combat fatigue, sleep and hunger, as well as being associated with secret societies and religious practice in West and Central Africa. In larger quantities the drug is hallucinogenic. Extracts of the plant also are used while stalking game. The principal alkaloid is ibogaine. Some of these are central nervous system stimulants, some are cholineesterase inhibitors, others cause hypotension and bradycardia. These alkaloids are found in a number of other genera in the family Apocynaceae. This is taken from Indole Alkaloids from Secologanin Precursors, Plant Biology, 1998 .:vector:.
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 3:01:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ibogaine is an indole alkaloid.
I think Shulgin has it listed in Pihkal? or Tihkal? one of those two. anyone
have either as reference?
Ibo gave me a liquid real experience in a waking dream state. visions
proliferated with my eyes shut, yet I could open my eyes and see “reality” as
it were and with some difficulty, carry on a conversation, yet the closed eye
state was much more preferable.
I believe what I experienced during the Ibogaine is what people experience when
they die. It was extremely profound and for the most part beyond words. I’ve
attempted to describe it a few different times yet the complete essence of what
I experienced continues indescribable.
-Gamma
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 1:55:58 PM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My experience of Ibogaine was not dissociative (as my K was.)
It was highly body-sedating with the kinda pleasant side-effect of deep
thinking.alert mind
Best way I can describe it
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG [mailto:jonarmst@du.edu]
Sent: 27 March 2002 18:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
What exactly is ibogaine? Everything I’ve read says tryptamine like
structure, but it’s not. Is it a tryptamine, betacarboline,
phenethylamine, what? Thanks .:vector:.
Along these same lines, I have heard that Ibogaine exhibits a strongly
disassociative effect a la ketamine. Is there anyone out there that has
tried both and what are the similarities? (Don’t worry, I’m not lining up
to do “recreational” Ibogaine use, as what I’ve read about it suggests
that it’s somewhat dangerous and not at all recreational at any rate.)
I’m wondering if it is the disassociative effect that leads to the
“working out” of problems with heroin addicts. Surely it is somewhat
disassociative – giving a corporeal psychedelic like LSD to someone in the
throes of opiate addiction could surely not be productive. Since ketamine
has been used fairly successfully to combat opiate addiction and
alcoholism by Evgeny Krupitsky in Russia, perhaps it is this
‘externalizing’ of problems which makes Ibogaine so successful in
addition to its ability to apparently reset opiate cravings?
Jonathan
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From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 1:26:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What exactly is ibogaine? Everything I’ve read says tryptamine like
structure, but it’s not. Is it a tryptamine, betacarboline,
phenethylamine, what? Thanks .:vector:.
Along these same lines, I have heard that Ibogaine exhibits a strongly
disassociative effect a la ketamine. Is there anyone out there that has
tried both and what are the similarities? (Don’t worry, I’m not lining up
to do “recreational” Ibogaine use, as what I’ve read about it suggests
that it’s somewhat dangerous and not at all recreational at any rate.)
I’m wondering if it is the disassociative effect that leads to the
“working out” of problems with heroin addicts. Surely it is somewhat
disassociative – giving a corporeal psychedelic like LSD to someone in the
throes of opiate addiction could surely not be productive. Since ketamine
has been used fairly successfully to combat opiate addiction and
alcoholism by Evgeny Krupitsky in Russia, perhaps it is this
‘externalizing’ of problems which makes Ibogaine so successful in
addition to its ability to apparently reset opiate cravings?
Jonathan
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From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine structure
Date: March 27, 2002 at 12:51:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What exactly is ibogaine? Everything I’ve read says tryptamine like structure, but it’s not. Is it a tryptamine, betacarboline, phenethylamine, what? Thanks .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 27, 2002 at 9:39:55 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
PK
Excellent stuff; had no idea
What’s ICM?
I’ll never harass u again..
Giant hug of strength
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 26 March 2002 20:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
On [Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 04:07:39PM -0000], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt]
wrote:
| PK
|
| I thought folk were asking you to tell your Iboga story; what happened?
Why
| u think it helped U
| How u now stay off and so on, no?
Andria,
I’ve done this, several times. The highly edited version came out nearly
two years ago, and appeared in a few places; the first one wuz here:
http://www.herointimes.com/feb01/detox.html
The same article is up in un-fucked, de-splattered format, on Nick’s site:
It’s translated into German on Karl’s site:
http://www.ibogainetreatment.com/deutsch/experiences/herointimes.html
I think I’m at roughly article 15 for Heroin Times at this point, and have
various other stuff forthcoming in HeroinHelper. The only reason I write
for these “publications,” is so people who are reading about heroin, might
become aware of ibogaine. The hit rate of HT in contrast to MindVox, is
absolutely negligible. I have roughly 1200 times as many people reading
anything I toss on Vox, as read all of HT. The difference is; most of
them are not on MindVox to read about heroin or ibogaine.
I have nearly 500k words to edit into a book. I speak, I write, I express
things — for the most part, these do not consist of stream of
consciousness rants; that’s sumthin’ I do to entertain myself. But ya
know what … I’m signed with ICM. ICM likes the stream of consciousness
rants. They love Naked Lunch meets Altered States; nobody — at my
agency, at any “real” magazine — appears to give a fuck about “recovery,”
— “look, just give us all the brutal, disgusting, sordid details! I’ve
led a boring life, share the war!”
I just did an addiction piece like I said I would, it’s in the next HT.
There are 2 more parts, at least one will sync with Dave and working the
12-step stuff into post-ibogaine.
I do an awful lot, because I believe in ibogaine. I am unclear on what
else it is that you — and various other people — believe that I should
be doing…? I am paid NOTHING for any of this; the stuff that sells is
the blood, sweat, pain, destruction –> leading up to pretty lights =)
Aside from all that I have a full time job, which really amounts to 3.5
jobs and growing; am the entire strung-out artist having a nervous
breakdown, experiencing suicidal ideation hotline; everyone I know is in
“recovery” and has a billion of their own problems; there’s this MindVox
thing rising from the ashes again, which is another 10,000 problems or so;
and oh yeah, occasionally, I attempt to have a life, and maintain some
level of sanity — whatever that means — so all of this doesn’t drive me
to the nearest shooting gallery, where all my problems can be solved with
one bag.
Patrick
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 26, 2002 at 9:30:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/26/02 9:13:04 PM, bdoyle2@neo.rr.com writes:
Rop,How can I order it in the states?Does it really work?Please let me
know
what you thoughts are on it.
You cannot legally order it in the states. Anyone that ships it to the
states post 9/11 is not thinking. Same for those ordering it.
Howard
From: “betty doyle” <bdoyle2@neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 26, 2002 at 9:15:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Rop,How can I order it in the states?Does it really work?Please let me know
what you thoughts are on it.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Rop Halvor” <rophalvor@alloymail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 7:55 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
I order here www.iboga.nl
Any recomend please email or post.
Thanks
rop
—
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 26, 2002 at 6:01:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
whatever you do, don’t let her do any dope. The ibogaine in her system will
potentiate the dope and overdose is more than likely. If after 48 hours she
must have dope, insist upon her doing a TINY AMOUNT. like 1/20th the amount of
a usual fix.
-Gamma
— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
on 3/26/02 6:15 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com at HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Well the situation has worsened. She is now throwing herself off the bed and
pacing around. Just says she cannot get warm, and the movements are
involuntary. The room is of course warm and she has plenty of blankets etc.
All extremely typical of withdrawal – how does one really tell?
Decided not to redose and let it run its course.
How soon can valium be administered?
Thanks for everyones replies, it is a help to have you all out there.
Guess you have to be prepared for everything, right?
Will keep you updated
Hattie,
You do seem to be having patient responses that are diverse from what is
historically seen. I had anticipated women may have had better results
because they are generally smarter in some basic way than men as well as,
the
issue of their higher plasma levels for ibogaine and metabolites.
There are two views on the matter (at least). In the ibogaine manual
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html>as a general safety protocol the proposed
way to go is to let the treatment run its course and then retreat a week or
so later. However, there are some providers who observe their patients and
dose accordingly. It always seems to come down to time and money on one
end
and/or dedication and personal protocol on the other. I don’t think the
success of any particular treatment should override the safety issues. It
doesn’t matter if ibogaine doesn’t work on every patient every time.
Nothing
works on every patient every time.
Concerning female metabolic issues, this matter is now reviewed in an
article
in The Scientist newsletter, available on the web at <
http://www.the-scientist.com/yr2002/mar/research_020318.html>. You may
have
to register to get the article but, registration is free. For everyone’s
convenience I will copy the text to the end of Hattie’s original message
below.
Once again, my opinion would be to let the treatment run its course, make
observations and have discussions with the subject. Efficacy is secondary
to
safety and gaining an understanding of what is happening. If you were in a
hospital environment I would not hesitate to suggest dose increase but, you
are not. Please keep us informed of the patient response and your
decision.
Howard
In a message dated 3/26/02 12:33:43 PM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:
I am in the middle of a treatment with a female heroin user – half a gram
a
day smoked. I have just treated her boyfriend successfully, no problems
ad
he has come away feeling ‘reborn’.
However she doesn’t seem to be feeling it, four/five hours after ingesting
she said she wanted to go to sleep ie don’t think she is really having
a
full on experience anymore. She is already getting restless, something
that
doesn’t normally happen until 12 hours later.
As I have been lying there in silence it suddenly struck me that of all
the
people I have treated there is always more of a problem with women in that
they just don’t seem to feel it as much. Now this goes against everything
written which says take more care with women, they metabolise more
noribogaine ad keep it in the blood plasma for longer etc.
I have found that the men treated have been nearly 100% success ad the
women
about 30%!!! this is quite a difference.
Now maybe it is because I give a slightly lower dose to women – 17mg/kg
rather than 18/19mg per kg – this is done because of all the warnings and
even exclusion of females from human studies.
Maybe it has something to do with bodyfat – the skinnier the women the
less
they feel it – in my experience.
Anyway I am puzzled, at a loss of what to do. Avoiding stepped dosing,
only
done that once and the subject didn’t feel the booster.
Can anyone shed light, and does anyone do stepped dosing.
This is such unchartered territory, and I thought this was really the type
of thing that would be discussed on this list rather than a lot of the
inane
ramblings that seem to pop up.
Help appreciated,
Hattie
*************
The Inequality of Drug Metabolism
The same medicines, same dosage, often have different outcomes for men and
women
E-mail
articleBy Karen Young Kreeger
Editor’s Note: This is the fifth article in a series on sex-based
differences
in the biology of males and females. The final article in the series will
cover sex-based differences in life expectancy.
Lisa Damiani
More than 30 years ago, researchers noted for the first time the
pharmacokinetic differences between men and women. They found that women
pass
antipyrine, a drug used to study liver metabolism, more quickly than men;
this occurred around ovulation and during the luteal phase of their
menstrual
cycles. But, says Mary J. Berg, professor of pharmacy, University of Iowa,
this initial difference was “just a scientific notation;” the researchers
didn’t set out to look for dissimilarities. Since then, just a few common
drugs have been studied exclusively for sex differences.1 “We still have a
long way to go,” says Berg. “There aren’t that many studies done on drugs
in
the market.” In fact, it was only in 1999 that the National Institutes of
Health held a scientific meeting on the subject.2 Investigation in this
area
is not merely academic; the issue of different metabolism rates has proven
deadly for some women.
One reason these studies have not been done, according to Michael
Smolensky,
professor of environmental physiology, University of Texas School of Public
Health at Houston, is funding is hard to come by. Also, the studies are
complicated and require many subjects in many categories to conduct them
properly. Susan Wood, the Food and Drug Administration’s director of the
Office of Women’s Health, counters that the issue was, and still is, a
question of clinical relevance. The historic assumption, she explains, was
that variability in the population in both men and women would mask any
sex-based differences. It has only been in the past decade, as more
knowledge
was accumulated about women’s health, that sex-based differences were
deemed
important questions to ask.
Courtesy of the University of Iowa
Mary J. Berg
————————————————————————
While hormones do play a part in explaining some sex-based differences in
drug metabolism, other confounding factors such as diet, body weight,
cigarette and alcohol consumption, other medications, time of day, and age
also play a role. In general, premenopausal women metabolize many types of
drugs faster than men such as the asthma drug theophylline, the antibiotic
erythromycin, the anti-inflammatory methyl prednisolone, and
anticonvulsants
used to treat epilepsy such as phenytoin derivatives. By contrast, women
seem
to be slower at metabolizing select antidepressants. Raymond Woosley, vice
president of the Arizona Health Sciences Center in Tucson, notes that some
researchers believe that drugs which block the iKr potassium channel are
more
potent in women than in men.
Case in Point
One of the more far-reaching instances of sex-based differences in
responses
to drugs is a life-threatening condition called torsades de pointes, a
cardiac arrhythmia that has a greater risk of developing in women.3 This
problem only started to draw attention when a small percentage of young
women
who were taking the antihistamine Seldane died unexpectedly. The drug was
then taken off the market. Drugs that cause this disorder lengthen the
distance between depolarization and repolarization activity in the heart,
called the QT interval (the time period needed for the heart to recharge
between beats). “We should have known that [Seldane] was causing harm to
women because we’ve known for decades that women have a longer QT interval
than men,” says Woosley, who has extensively studied drug effects on QT.
(See
www.torsades.org or www.qtdrugs.org for a list of all drugs that can cause
these arrhythmias.) “It’s not really a difference in drug metabolism but a
difference in responsiveness,” he explains. “Women’s hearts are in fact
twice
as sensitive.”
Researchers think that sex hormones cause the difference in the interval
length. The QT interval is the same in children until puberty, at which
time
it shortens in boys. It’s also known that sex hormones, which are obviously
changing by the time puberty hits, affect the activity of the cells’
potassium channels, which in turn govern the interval.
Nearly 40 drugs in use can lengthen the QT interval in some patients, a
handful of which have been taken off the market. (See
www.fda.gov/medwatch/safety.htm) “It’s a common problem in every drug class
that’s on the market today and in every drug class being developed,” says
Woosley.
Breaking it Down
Investigators who study the liver are trying to understand basic mechanisms
in an effort to explain sex-based differences. Bernard Shapiro, professor
of
biochemistry, University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine,
uses
rats to study how liver enzymes called cytochrome P450s (or CYPs)
metabolize
drugs differently. Shapiro’s work found that male and female rats express
P450 isoforms differently; he is currently looking at this relationship in
cultured human hepatocytes. Humans probably have 40 to 50 different
isoforms,
with each person expressing differing amounts, combinations of which
metabolize each drug. In general, women and men may express a different
suite
of P450s or many of the same ones at different levels. Growth hormone
determines which P450s are expressed, and Shapiro’s group found that male
and
female rats secrete different profiles of growth hormone over a 24-hour
period.4 Females secrete more pulses over the circadian cycle which the
P450s
detect, but males and females still secrete the same amount over 24 hours.
Females secrete more pulses that are smaller and in a continuous pattern,
while males secrete larger pulses that are interrupted by periods devoid of
growth hormone.
It’s not the hormone’s presence or absence, but its pulse profile, to which
cells respond. Shapiro says there is good, but not yet conclusive, evidence
that this scenario is also true in humans. And it is this contrasting suite
of liver enzymes between males and females that may explain why some drugs
are broken down differently between the sexes.
Leslie Benet, professor of biopharmaceutical sciences, University of
California, San Francisco, studies drug substrates for the liver and gut
enzyme, cytochrome P450 3A and the transporter, P-glycoprotein. These
proteins work together to metabolize drugs. More than half of human drugs,
such as cancer-fighting drugs, immune suppressants, protease inhibitors,
and
cardiovascular disease medications, are broken down by cytochrome P450 3A.
Transporters shunt drugs out of certain cells where they are not needed.
The current thinking among pharmaceutical re-searchers, says Benet, is that
the transporter is responsible for the sex-based differences in metabolism;
the transporter ultimately controls access to the liver and gut enzymes.
His
group surmises that this action is related to fluctuating progestins and
estrogens during a woman’s menstrual cycle. In ongoing studies, they have
found that P-glycoproteins present in vaginal and endometrial tissue, and
perhaps other tissues, oscillate with a woman’s menstrual cycle. Their
levels
are high in the mid-luteal phase and low in the follicular phase. It is
because of oscillations like these that Smolensky stresses the importance
of
including chronopharmacological studies on circadian as well as menstrual
cycles in pharmacokinetics and pharma-codynamics, to better understand
differences in a drug’s efficacy and metabolism.5
An example of varied metabolism is the response of female epileptics to
phenytoin. This anticonvulsant is used to treat seizures, but because it is
cleared faster in the days prior to the onset of menses, seizures are more
likely to occur at that time. Thus, some women take carbamazepine instead.
Courtesy of William Jusko, University of Buffalo
William Jusko
————————————————————————
The reason behind the differences could also be the drugs themselves. In
1993, William J. Jusko, professor of pharmaceutical sciences, State
University of New York, Buffalo, found that women metabolize the
corticosteroid methylprednisolone more quickly than men and that women were
more sensitive to the steroid’s effects as measured by the cortisol
concentrations and the lymphocyte count in their blood.6 Then, last year,
his
group found that prednisolone did not show a marked difference in the
metabolism rate between men and women.7 The two compounds are similar in
structure except for the addition of a methyl group, which most likely
accounts for the difference in activity.
What’s Ahead
Last summer, the General Accounting Office reported that the FDA was not
effectively monitoring drug data for analysis of sex differences in safety
and efficacy. In general, the FDA has no quarrel with the GAO’s report.
According to Wood, mechanisms were in place prior to the report to improve
analysis by sex, such as developing a demographics worksheet and
standardized
reviewer templates. The agency has outlined a way to look for differences
during the development of medicines (Gender studies in product development:
Scientific issues and approaches. Executive Summary, U.S. FDA, 1999,
www.fda.gov/womens/executive.html).
“We don’t want to alarm people; there’s no smoking gun,” says Wood. “But
there is enough evidence to raise questions and to push for more research.”
The FDA is moving toward developing a database that will ultimately track
the
demographics of clinical trials by sex, race/ethnicity and age, among other
variables.
Karen Young Kreeger (kykreeger@aol.com) is a contributing editor.
References
1. M.J. Berg, “Pharmacological differences between men and women,” In:
Principles of Clinical Pharmacology, A.J. Atkinson, Jr., et al., eds., New
York: Academic Press, 2001.
2. Conference on Biologic and Molecular Mechanisms for Sex Differences in
Pharmacokinetics, Pharmacodynamics, and Pharmacogenetics (
www4.od.nih.gov/orwh/pharmacology/abstract1.html).
3. S.N. Ebert et al., “Female gender as a risk factor for drug-induced
cardiac arrhythmias: evaluation of clinical and experimental evidence,”
Journal of Women’s Health, 7:547-57, 1998.
4. B.H. Shapiro et al., “Gender Differences in Drug Metabolism Regulated by
Growth Hormone,” International Journal of Biochemistry and Cell Biology,
27:9-20, 1995.
5. M. Smolensky and L. Lamberg, The Body Clock Guide to Better Health: How
to
Use Your Body’s Natural Clock to Fight Illnesses and Achieve Maximum
Health,
New York: Henry Holt & Co., 2001.
6. K.H. Lew et al., “Gender-based effects on methylprednisolone
pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics,” Clinical Pharmacology and
Therapeutics
, 54: 402-14, 1993.
7. M.H. Magee et al., “Prednisolone pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics
in
relation to sex and race,” Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 41:1180-94,
2001.
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 26, 2002 at 5:44:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hattie,
I am not going to respond personally but, author submissions to the ibogaine
manual indicate that benzodiazepines have been administered before, during
and after ibogaine therapy. Questions you have to ask yourself is if the
patient has any prior benzo experience so that you are working with known
patient responses rather than not.
If you had a cuff and stethoscope or an auto blood pressure unit you could
check pulse and blood pressure. Always useful.
On an other issue concerning possible use by opiates of the patient, ibogaine
potentiates both opiate effects and toxicity. There may also be an effect of
lowered concurrent tolerance. Therefore the patient should be warned as to
both fatal ibogaine/opiate interaction and the fact that if opiates are used,
use should start at 20% – 25% of prior use. These numbers are proposed from
early self-help discussions. But, these are patient decisions and I do not
believe that outside of a medical environment anyone should administer
opiates.
Hope you saw my other post on opiate withdrawal scales.
Howard
In a message dated 3/26/02 5:36:04 PM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:
Well the situation has worsened. She is now throwing herself off the bed
and
pacing around. Just says she cannot get warm, and the movements are
involuntary. The room is of course warm and she has plenty of blankets
etc.
All extremely typical of withdrawal – how does one really tell?
Decided not to redose and let it run its course.
How soon can valium be administered?
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 26, 2002 at 6:10:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
on 3/26/02 6:15 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com at HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Well the situation has worsened. She is now throwing herself off the bed and
pacing around. Just says she cannot get warm, and the movements are
involuntary. The room is of course warm and she has plenty of blankets etc.
All extremely typical of withdrawal – how does one really tell?
Decided not to redose and let it run its course.
How soon can valium be administered?
Thanks for everyones replies, it is a help to have you all out there.
Guess you have to be prepared for everything, right?
Will keep you updated
Hattie,
You do seem to be having patient responses that are diverse from what is
historically seen. I had anticipated women may have had better results
because they are generally smarter in some basic way than men as well as, the
issue of their higher plasma levels for ibogaine and metabolites.
There are two views on the matter (at least). In the ibogaine manual
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html>as a general safety protocol the proposed
way to go is to let the treatment run its course and then retreat a week or
so later. However, there are some providers who observe their patients and
dose accordingly. It always seems to come down to time and money on one end
and/or dedication and personal protocol on the other. I don’t think the
success of any particular treatment should override the safety issues. It
doesn’t matter if ibogaine doesn’t work on every patient every time. Nothing
works on every patient every time.
Concerning female metabolic issues, this matter is now reviewed in an article
in The Scientist newsletter, available on the web at <
http://www.the-scientist.com/yr2002/mar/research_020318.html>. You may have
to register to get the article but, registration is free. For everyone’s
convenience I will copy the text to the end of Hattie’s original message
below.
Once again, my opinion would be to let the treatment run its course, make
observations and have discussions with the subject. Efficacy is secondary to
safety and gaining an understanding of what is happening. If you were in a
hospital environment I would not hesitate to suggest dose increase but, you
are not. Please keep us informed of the patient response and your decision.
Howard
In a message dated 3/26/02 12:33:43 PM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:
I am in the middle of a treatment with a female heroin user – half a gram
a
day smoked. I have just treated her boyfriend successfully, no problems
ad
he has come away feeling ‘reborn’.
However she doesn’t seem to be feeling it, four/five hours after ingesting
she said she wanted to go to sleep ie don’t think she is really having
a
full on experience anymore. She is already getting restless, something
that
doesn’t normally happen until 12 hours later.
As I have been lying there in silence it suddenly struck me that of all
the
people I have treated there is always more of a problem with women in that
they just don’t seem to feel it as much. Now this goes against everything
written which says take more care with women, they metabolise more
noribogaine ad keep it in the blood plasma for longer etc.
I have found that the men treated have been nearly 100% success ad the
women
about 30%!!! this is quite a difference.
Now maybe it is because I give a slightly lower dose to women – 17mg/kg
rather than 18/19mg per kg – this is done because of all the warnings and
even exclusion of females from human studies.
Maybe it has something to do with bodyfat – the skinnier the women the
less
they feel it – in my experience.
Anyway I am puzzled, at a loss of what to do. Avoiding stepped dosing,
only
done that once and the subject didn’t feel the booster.
Can anyone shed light, and does anyone do stepped dosing.
This is such unchartered territory, and I thought this was really the type
of thing that would be discussed on this list rather than a lot of the
inane
ramblings that seem to pop up.
Help appreciated,
Hattie
*************
The Inequality of Drug Metabolism
The same medicines, same dosage, often have different outcomes for men and
women
E-mail
articleBy Karen Young Kreeger
Editor’s Note: This is the fifth article in a series on sex-based differences
in the biology of males and females. The final article in the series will
cover sex-based differences in life expectancy.
Lisa Damiani
More than 30 years ago, researchers noted for the first time the
pharmacokinetic differences between men and women. They found that women pass
antipyrine, a drug used to study liver metabolism, more quickly than men;
this occurred around ovulation and during the luteal phase of their menstrual
cycles. But, says Mary J. Berg, professor of pharmacy, University of Iowa,
this initial difference was “just a scientific notation;” the researchers
didn’t set out to look for dissimilarities. Since then, just a few common
drugs have been studied exclusively for sex differences.1 “We still have a
long way to go,” says Berg. “There aren’t that many studies done on drugs in
the market.” In fact, it was only in 1999 that the National Institutes of
Health held a scientific meeting on the subject.2 Investigation in this area
is not merely academic; the issue of different metabolism rates has proven
deadly for some women.
One reason these studies have not been done, according to Michael Smolensky,
professor of environmental physiology, University of Texas School of Public
Health at Houston, is funding is hard to come by. Also, the studies are
complicated and require many subjects in many categories to conduct them
properly. Susan Wood, the Food and Drug Administration’s director of the
Office of Women’s Health, counters that the issue was, and still is, a
question of clinical relevance. The historic assumption, she explains, was
that variability in the population in both men and women would mask any
sex-based differences. It has only been in the past decade, as more knowledge
was accumulated about women’s health, that sex-based differences were deemed
important questions to ask.
Courtesy of the University of Iowa
Mary J. Berg
————————————————————————
While hormones do play a part in explaining some sex-based differences in
drug metabolism, other confounding factors such as diet, body weight,
cigarette and alcohol consumption, other medications, time of day, and age
also play a role. In general, premenopausal women metabolize many types of
drugs faster than men such as the asthma drug theophylline, the antibiotic
erythromycin, the anti-inflammatory methyl prednisolone, and anticonvulsants
used to treat epilepsy such as phenytoin derivatives. By contrast, women seem
to be slower at metabolizing select antidepressants. Raymond Woosley, vice
president of the Arizona Health Sciences Center in Tucson, notes that some
researchers believe that drugs which block the iKr potassium channel are more
potent in women than in men.
Case in Point
One of the more far-reaching instances of sex-based differences in responses
to drugs is a life-threatening condition called torsades de pointes, a
cardiac arrhythmia that has a greater risk of developing in women.3 This
problem only started to draw attention when a small percentage of young women
who were taking the antihistamine Seldane died unexpectedly. The drug was
then taken off the market. Drugs that cause this disorder lengthen the
distance between depolarization and repolarization activity in the heart,
called the QT interval (the time period needed for the heart to recharge
between beats). “We should have known that [Seldane] was causing harm to
women because we’ve known for decades that women have a longer QT interval
than men,” says Woosley, who has extensively studied drug effects on QT. (See
www.torsades.org or www.qtdrugs.org for a list of all drugs that can cause
these arrhythmias.) “It’s not really a difference in drug metabolism but a
difference in responsiveness,” he explains. “Women’s hearts are in fact twice
as sensitive.”
Researchers think that sex hormones cause the difference in the interval
length. The QT interval is the same in children until puberty, at which time
it shortens in boys. It’s also known that sex hormones, which are obviously
changing by the time puberty hits, affect the activity of the cells’
potassium channels, which in turn govern the interval.
Nearly 40 drugs in use can lengthen the QT interval in some patients, a
handful of which have been taken off the market. (See
www.fda.gov/medwatch/safety.htm) “It’s a common problem in every drug class
that’s on the market today and in every drug class being developed,” says
Woosley.
Breaking it Down
Investigators who study the liver are trying to understand basic mechanisms
in an effort to explain sex-based differences. Bernard Shapiro, professor of
biochemistry, University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, uses
rats to study how liver enzymes called cytochrome P450s (or CYPs) metabolize
drugs differently. Shapiro’s work found that male and female rats express
P450 isoforms differently; he is currently looking at this relationship in
cultured human hepatocytes. Humans probably have 40 to 50 different isoforms,
with each person expressing differing amounts, combinations of which
metabolize each drug. In general, women and men may express a different suite
of P450s or many of the same ones at different levels. Growth hormone
determines which P450s are expressed, and Shapiro’s group found that male and
female rats secrete different profiles of growth hormone over a 24-hour
period.4 Females secrete more pulses over the circadian cycle which the P450s
detect, but males and females still secrete the same amount over 24 hours.
Females secrete more pulses that are smaller and in a continuous pattern,
while males secrete larger pulses that are interrupted by periods devoid of
growth hormone.
It’s not the hormone’s presence or absence, but its pulse profile, to which
cells respond. Shapiro says there is good, but not yet conclusive, evidence
that this scenario is also true in humans. And it is this contrasting suite
of liver enzymes between males and females that may explain why some drugs
are broken down differently between the sexes.
Leslie Benet, professor of biopharmaceutical sciences, University of
California, San Francisco, studies drug substrates for the liver and gut
enzyme, cytochrome P450 3A and the transporter, P-glycoprotein. These
proteins work together to metabolize drugs. More than half of human drugs,
such as cancer-fighting drugs, immune suppressants, protease inhibitors, and
cardiovascular disease medications, are broken down by cytochrome P450 3A.
Transporters shunt drugs out of certain cells where they are not needed.
The current thinking among pharmaceutical re-searchers, says Benet, is that
the transporter is responsible for the sex-based differences in metabolism;
the transporter ultimately controls access to the liver and gut enzymes. His
group surmises that this action is related to fluctuating progestins and
estrogens during a woman’s menstrual cycle. In ongoing studies, they have
found that P-glycoproteins present in vaginal and endometrial tissue, and
perhaps other tissues, oscillate with a woman’s menstrual cycle. Their levels
are high in the mid-luteal phase and low in the follicular phase. It is
because of oscillations like these that Smolensky stresses the importance of
including chronopharmacological studies on circadian as well as menstrual
cycles in pharmacokinetics and pharma-codynamics, to better understand
differences in a drug’s efficacy and metabolism.5
An example of varied metabolism is the response of female epileptics to
phenytoin. This anticonvulsant is used to treat seizures, but because it is
cleared faster in the days prior to the onset of menses, seizures are more
likely to occur at that time. Thus, some women take carbamazepine instead.
Courtesy of William Jusko, University of Buffalo
William Jusko
————————————————————————
The reason behind the differences could also be the drugs themselves. In
1993, William J. Jusko, professor of pharmaceutical sciences, State
University of New York, Buffalo, found that women metabolize the
corticosteroid methylprednisolone more quickly than men and that women were
more sensitive to the steroid’s effects as measured by the cortisol
concentrations and the lymphocyte count in their blood.6 Then, last year, his
group found that prednisolone did not show a marked difference in the
metabolism rate between men and women.7 The two compounds are similar in
structure except for the addition of a methyl group, which most likely
accounts for the difference in activity.
What’s Ahead
Last summer, the General Accounting Office reported that the FDA was not
effectively monitoring drug data for analysis of sex differences in safety
and efficacy. In general, the FDA has no quarrel with the GAO’s report.
According to Wood, mechanisms were in place prior to the report to improve
analysis by sex, such as developing a demographics worksheet and standardized
reviewer templates. The agency has outlined a way to look for differences
during the development of medicines (Gender studies in product development:
Scientific issues and approaches. Executive Summary, U.S. FDA, 1999,
www.fda.gov/womens/executive.html).
“We don’t want to alarm people; there’s no smoking gun,” says Wood. “But
there is enough evidence to raise questions and to push for more research.”
The FDA is moving toward developing a database that will ultimately track the
demographics of clinical trials by sex, race/ethnicity and age, among other
variables.
Karen Young Kreeger (kykreeger@aol.com) is a contributing editor.
References
1. M.J. Berg, “Pharmacological differences between men and women,” In:
Principles of Clinical Pharmacology, A.J. Atkinson, Jr., et al., eds., New
York: Academic Press, 2001.
2. Conference on Biologic and Molecular Mechanisms for Sex Differences in
Pharmacokinetics, Pharmacodynamics, and Pharmacogenetics (
www4.od.nih.gov/orwh/pharmacology/abstract1.html).
3. S.N. Ebert et al., “Female gender as a risk factor for drug-induced
cardiac arrhythmias: evaluation of clinical and experimental evidence,”
Journal of Women’s Health, 7:547-57, 1998.
4. B.H. Shapiro et al., “Gender Differences in Drug Metabolism Regulated by
Growth Hormone,” International Journal of Biochemistry and Cell Biology,
27:9-20, 1995.
5. M. Smolensky and L. Lamberg, The Body Clock Guide to Better Health: How to
Use Your Body’s Natural Clock to Fight Illnesses and Achieve Maximum Health,
New York: Henry Holt & Co., 2001.
6. K.H. Lew et al., “Gender-based effects on methylprednisolone
pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics,” Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics
, 54: 402-14, 1993.
7. M.H. Magee et al., “Prednisolone pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics in
relation to sex and race,” Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 41:1180-94,
2001.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 26, 2002 at 5:27:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Hattie,
Whether it works out or not observing opiate withdrawal signs is useful. You
can find both objective opiate withdrawal sign tables and subjective opiate
withdrawal sign tables in the ibogaine manual. Goto
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html> scroll down to right after the
introduction to the first revision to the table of contents and click on
opiate withdrawal tables. You should do the objective signs table first and
then the subjective signs. Do these every four hours if possible. It is
also very useful when interviewing patients prior to treatment to ask them to
list their usual opiate withdrawal signs from prior experiences. That way
you can compare past and current signs.
Howard
In a message dated 3/26/02 12:33:43 PM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:
I am in the middle of a treatment with a female heroin user – half a gram
a
day smoked. I have just treated her boyfriend successfully, no problems
ad
he has come away feeling ‘reborn’.
However she doesn’t seem to be feeling it, four/five hours after ingesting
she said she wanted to go to sleep ie don’t think she is really having
a
full on experience anymore. She is already getting restless, something
that
doesn’t normally happen until 12 hours later.
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: I have OCD and need help
Date: March 26, 2002 at 6:24:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Delivered-To: cnw@mojo.calyx.net
From: “John P. Clarke” <ocdhelp4me@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:07:54
To:cnw@mojo.calyx.net
Subject: I have OCD and need help
Status:
I’ve read books, done therapy, and consulted with many for over 16
years without any substantial progress. Among other problems, I
need to deal with a mental compulsion to break apart words and
phrases into symmetrical groups, the continual counting and sorting
of everything I see, and the uncontrollable parade of ideas in my
head competing for attention. This interferes with concentration,
impairs decision-making, and leads to frustration and depression.
I would welcome suggestions, possible solutions, reference
materials, referrals, anything you might recommend. Please email me
at ocdhelp4me@earthlink.net
Thank you for your help.
Sincerely,
John P. Clarke
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 26, 2002 at 3:17:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 04:07:39PM -0000], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
| PK
|
| I thought folk were asking you to tell your Iboga story; what happened? Why
| u think it helped U
| How u now stay off and so on, no?
Andria,
I’ve done this, several times. The highly edited version came out nearly
two years ago, and appeared in a few places; the first one wuz here:
http://www.herointimes.com/feb01/detox.html
The same article is up in un-fucked, de-splattered format, on Nick’s site:
It’s translated into German on Karl’s site:
http://www.ibogainetreatment.com/deutsch/experiences/herointimes.html
I think I’m at roughly article 15 for Heroin Times at this point, and have
various other stuff forthcoming in HeroinHelper. The only reason I write
for these “publications,” is so people who are reading about heroin, might
become aware of ibogaine. The hit rate of HT in contrast to MindVox, is
absolutely negligible. I have roughly 1200 times as many people reading
anything I toss on Vox, as read all of HT. The difference is; most of
them are not on MindVox to read about heroin or ibogaine.
I have nearly 500k words to edit into a book. I speak, I write, I express
things — for the most part, these do not consist of stream of
consciousness rants; that’s sumthin’ I do to entertain myself. But ya
know what … I’m signed with ICM. ICM likes the stream of consciousness
rants. They love Naked Lunch meets Altered States; nobody — at my
agency, at any “real” magazine — appears to give a fuck about “recovery,”
— “look, just give us all the brutal, disgusting, sordid details! I’ve
led a boring life, share the war!”
I just did an addiction piece like I said I would, it’s in the next HT.
There are 2 more parts, at least one will sync with Dave and working the
12-step stuff into post-ibogaine.
I do an awful lot, because I believe in ibogaine. I am unclear on what
else it is that you — and various other people — believe that I should
be doing…? I am paid NOTHING for any of this; the stuff that sells is
the blood, sweat, pain, destruction –> leading up to pretty lights =)
Aside from all that I have a full time job, which really amounts to 3.5
jobs and growing; am the entire strung-out artist having a nervous
breakdown, experiencing suicidal ideation hotline; everyone I know is in
“recovery” and has a billion of their own problems; there’s this MindVox
thing rising from the ashes again, which is another 10,000 problems or so;
and oh yeah, occasionally, I attempt to have a life, and maintain some
level of sanity — whatever that means — so all of this doesn’t drive me
to the nearest shooting gallery, where all my problems can be solved with
one bag.
Patrick
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 26, 2002 at 3:06:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Hattie,
do you remember when I asked for help with the man who didn’t come back for days? (He’s great now, his wife can’t recognise him and is delighted ;.)) His friend saw the change in him, and he took HCl, too. And nothing happened. He didn’t even feel it! He was walking around as he didn’t take anything…
Nobody knows why this happens… but my opinion is: Ibogaine can work in any way… some ways more, and some less usually. Sometimes it even appears that it doesn’t work, but I believe that SOMETHING must be going on.
I might be wrong
Marko
At 19:08 26.3.2002, you wrote:
Realised I didn;t title the email which means people may have missed it.
Also left something from an old email at the top. So here it is again.
I am in the middle of a treatment with a female heroin user – half a gram a
day smoked. I have just treated her boyfriend successfully, no problems ad
he has come away feeling ‘reborn’.
However she doesn’t seem to be feeling it, four/five hours after ingesting
she said she wanted to go to sleep ie don’t think she is really having a
full on experience anymore. She is already getting restless, something that
doesn’t normally happen until 12 hours later.
As I have been lying there in silence it suddenly struck me that of all the
people I have treated there is always more of a problem with women in that
they just don’t seem to feel it as much. Now this goes against everything
written which says take more care with women, they metabolise more
noribogaine ad keep it in the blood plasma for longer etc.
I have found that the men treated have been nearly 100% success ad the women
about 30%!!! this is quite a difference.
Now maybe it is because I give a slightly lower dose to women – 17mg/kg
rather than 18/19mg per kg – this is done because of all the warnings and
even exclusion of females from human studies.
Maybe it has something to do with bodyfat – the skinnier the women the less
they feel it – in my experience.
Anyway I am puzzled, at a loss of what to do. Avoiding stepped dosing, only
done that once and the subject didn’t feel the booster.
Can anyone shed light, and does anyone do stepped dosing.
This is such unchartered territory, and I thought this was really the type
of thing that would be discussed on this list rather than a lot of the inane
ramblings that seem to pop up.
Help appreciated,
Hattie
>
> In a message dated 3/25/02 7:55:42 PM, rophalvor@alloymail.com writes:
>
>> Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
>>
>> I order here www.iboga.nl
>>
>> Any recomend please email or post.
>
> I would suggest you ask the supplier to provide that information. Then, let
> the list know what response you received.
>
> Howard
>
>
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 26, 2002 at 1:15:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hattie,
You do seem to be having patient responses that are diverse from what is
historically seen. I had anticipated women may have had better results
because they are generally smarter in some basic way than men as well as, the
issue of their higher plasma levels for ibogaine and metabolites.
There are two views on the matter (at least). In the ibogaine manual
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html>as a general safety protocol the proposed
way to go is to let the treatment run its course and then retreat a week or
so later. However, there are some providers who observe their patients and
dose accordingly. It always seems to come down to time and money on one end
and/or dedication and personal protocol on the other. I don’t think the
success of any particular treatment should override the safety issues. It
doesn’t matter if ibogaine doesn’t work on every patient every time. Nothing
works on every patient every time.
Concerning female metabolic issues, this matter is now reviewed in an article
in The Scientist newsletter, available on the web at <
http://www.the-scientist.com/yr2002/mar/research_020318.html>. You may have
to register to get the article but, registration is free. For everyone’s
convenience I will copy the text to the end of Hattie’s original message
below.
Once again, my opinion would be to let the treatment run its course, make
observations and have discussions with the subject. Efficacy is secondary to
safety and gaining an understanding of what is happening. If you were in a
hospital environment I would not hesitate to suggest dose increase but, you
are not. Please keep us informed of the patient response and your decision.
Howard
In a message dated 3/26/02 12:33:43 PM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:
I am in the middle of a treatment with a female heroin user – half a gram
a
day smoked. I have just treated her boyfriend successfully, no problems
ad
he has come away feeling ‘reborn’.
However she doesn’t seem to be feeling it, four/five hours after ingesting
she said she wanted to go to sleep ie don’t think she is really having
a
full on experience anymore. She is already getting restless, something
that
doesn’t normally happen until 12 hours later.
As I have been lying there in silence it suddenly struck me that of all
the
people I have treated there is always more of a problem with women in that
they just don’t seem to feel it as much. Now this goes against everything
written which says take more care with women, they metabolise more
noribogaine ad keep it in the blood plasma for longer etc.
I have found that the men treated have been nearly 100% success ad the
women
about 30%!!! this is quite a difference.
Now maybe it is because I give a slightly lower dose to women – 17mg/kg
rather than 18/19mg per kg – this is done because of all the warnings and
even exclusion of females from human studies.
Maybe it has something to do with bodyfat – the skinnier the women the
less
they feel it – in my experience.
Anyway I am puzzled, at a loss of what to do. Avoiding stepped dosing,
only
done that once and the subject didn’t feel the booster.
Can anyone shed light, and does anyone do stepped dosing.
This is such unchartered territory, and I thought this was really the type
of thing that would be discussed on this list rather than a lot of the
inane
ramblings that seem to pop up.
Help appreciated,
Hattie
*************
The Inequality of Drug Metabolism
The same medicines, same dosage, often have different outcomes for men and
women
E-mail
articleBy Karen Young Kreeger
Editor’s Note: This is the fifth article in a series on sex-based differences
in the biology of males and females. The final article in the series will
cover sex-based differences in life expectancy.
Lisa Damiani
More than 30 years ago, researchers noted for the first time the
pharmacokinetic differences between men and women. They found that women pass
antipyrine, a drug used to study liver metabolism, more quickly than men;
this occurred around ovulation and during the luteal phase of their menstrual
cycles. But, says Mary J. Berg, professor of pharmacy, University of Iowa,
this initial difference was “just a scientific notation;” the researchers
didn’t set out to look for dissimilarities. Since then, just a few common
drugs have been studied exclusively for sex differences.1 “We still have a
long way to go,” says Berg. “There aren’t that many studies done on drugs in
the market.” In fact, it was only in 1999 that the National Institutes of
Health held a scientific meeting on the subject.2 Investigation in this area
is not merely academic; the issue of different metabolism rates has proven
deadly for some women.
One reason these studies have not been done, according to Michael Smolensky,
professor of environmental physiology, University of Texas School of Public
Health at Houston, is funding is hard to come by. Also, the studies are
complicated and require many subjects in many categories to conduct them
properly. Susan Wood, the Food and Drug Administration’s director of the
Office of Women’s Health, counters that the issue was, and still is, a
question of clinical relevance. The historic assumption, she explains, was
that variability in the population in both men and women would mask any
sex-based differences. It has only been in the past decade, as more knowledge
was accumulated about women’s health, that sex-based differences were deemed
important questions to ask.
Courtesy of the University of Iowa
Mary J. Berg
————————————————————————
While hormones do play a part in explaining some sex-based differences in
drug metabolism, other confounding factors such as diet, body weight,
cigarette and alcohol consumption, other medications, time of day, and age
also play a role. In general, premenopausal women metabolize many types of
drugs faster than men such as the asthma drug theophylline, the antibiotic
erythromycin, the anti-inflammatory methyl prednisolone, and anticonvulsants
used to treat epilepsy such as phenytoin derivatives. By contrast, women seem
to be slower at metabolizing select antidepressants. Raymond Woosley, vice
president of the Arizona Health Sciences Center in Tucson, notes that some
researchers believe that drugs which block the iKr potassium channel are more
potent in women than in men.
Case in Point
One of the more far-reaching instances of sex-based differences in responses
to drugs is a life-threatening condition called torsades de pointes, a
cardiac arrhythmia that has a greater risk of developing in women.3 This
problem only started to draw attention when a small percentage of young women
who were taking the antihistamine Seldane died unexpectedly. The drug was
then taken off the market. Drugs that cause this disorder lengthen the
distance between depolarization and repolarization activity in the heart,
called the QT interval (the time period needed for the heart to recharge
between beats). “We should have known that [Seldane] was causing harm to
women because we’ve known for decades that women have a longer QT interval
than men,” says Woosley, who has extensively studied drug effects on QT. (See
www.torsades.org or www.qtdrugs.org for a list of all drugs that can cause
these arrhythmias.) “It’s not really a difference in drug metabolism but a
difference in responsiveness,” he explains. “Women’s hearts are in fact twice
as sensitive.”
Researchers think that sex hormones cause the difference in the interval
length. The QT interval is the same in children until puberty, at which time
it shortens in boys. It’s also known that sex hormones, which are obviously
changing by the time puberty hits, affect the activity of the cells’
potassium channels, which in turn govern the interval.
Nearly 40 drugs in use can lengthen the QT interval in some patients, a
handful of which have been taken off the market. (See
www.fda.gov/medwatch/safety.htm) “It’s a common problem in every drug class
that’s on the market today and in every drug class being developed,” says
Woosley.
Breaking it Down
Investigators who study the liver are trying to understand basic mechanisms
in an effort to explain sex-based differences. Bernard Shapiro, professor of
biochemistry, University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, uses
rats to study how liver enzymes called cytochrome P450s (or CYPs) metabolize
drugs differently. Shapiro’s work found that male and female rats express
P450 isoforms differently; he is currently looking at this relationship in
cultured human hepatocytes. Humans probably have 40 to 50 different isoforms,
with each person expressing differing amounts, combinations of which
metabolize each drug. In general, women and men may express a different suite
of P450s or many of the same ones at different levels. Growth hormone
determines which P450s are expressed, and Shapiro’s group found that male and
female rats secrete different profiles of growth hormone over a 24-hour
period.4 Females secrete more pulses over the circadian cycle which the P450s
detect, but males and females still secrete the same amount over 24 hours.
Females secrete more pulses that are smaller and in a continuous pattern,
while males secrete larger pulses that are interrupted by periods devoid of
growth hormone.
It’s not the hormone’s presence or absence, but its pulse profile, to which
cells respond. Shapiro says there is good, but not yet conclusive, evidence
that this scenario is also true in humans. And it is this contrasting suite
of liver enzymes between males and females that may explain why some drugs
are broken down differently between the sexes.
Leslie Benet, professor of biopharmaceutical sciences, University of
California, San Francisco, studies drug substrates for the liver and gut
enzyme, cytochrome P450 3A and the transporter, P-glycoprotein. These
proteins work together to metabolize drugs. More than half of human drugs,
such as cancer-fighting drugs, immune suppressants, protease inhibitors, and
cardiovascular disease medications, are broken down by cytochrome P450 3A.
Transporters shunt drugs out of certain cells where they are not needed.
The current thinking among pharmaceutical re-searchers, says Benet, is that
the transporter is responsible for the sex-based differences in metabolism;
the transporter ultimately controls access to the liver and gut enzymes. His
group surmises that this action is related to fluctuating progestins and
estrogens during a woman’s menstrual cycle. In ongoing studies, they have
found that P-glycoproteins present in vaginal and endometrial tissue, and
perhaps other tissues, oscillate with a woman’s menstrual cycle. Their levels
are high in the mid-luteal phase and low in the follicular phase. It is
because of oscillations like these that Smolensky stresses the importance of
including chronopharmacological studies on circadian as well as menstrual
cycles in pharmacokinetics and pharma-codynamics, to better understand
differences in a drug’s efficacy and metabolism.5
An example of varied metabolism is the response of female epileptics to
phenytoin. This anticonvulsant is used to treat seizures, but because it is
cleared faster in the days prior to the onset of menses, seizures are more
likely to occur at that time. Thus, some women take carbamazepine instead.
Courtesy of William Jusko, University of Buffalo
William Jusko
————————————————————————
The reason behind the differences could also be the drugs themselves. In
1993, William J. Jusko, professor of pharmaceutical sciences, State
University of New York, Buffalo, found that women metabolize the
corticosteroid methylprednisolone more quickly than men and that women were
more sensitive to the steroid’s effects as measured by the cortisol
concentrations and the lymphocyte count in their blood.6 Then, last year, his
group found that prednisolone did not show a marked difference in the
metabolism rate between men and women.7 The two compounds are similar in
structure except for the addition of a methyl group, which most likely
accounts for the difference in activity.
What’s Ahead
Last summer, the General Accounting Office reported that the FDA was not
effectively monitoring drug data for analysis of sex differences in safety
and efficacy. In general, the FDA has no quarrel with the GAO’s report.
According to Wood, mechanisms were in place prior to the report to improve
analysis by sex, such as developing a demographics worksheet and standardized
reviewer templates. The agency has outlined a way to look for differences
during the development of medicines (Gender studies in product development:
Scientific issues and approaches. Executive Summary, U.S. FDA, 1999,
www.fda.gov/womens/executive.html).
“We don’t want to alarm people; there’s no smoking gun,” says Wood. “But
there is enough evidence to raise questions and to push for more research.”
The FDA is moving toward developing a database that will ultimately track the
demographics of clinical trials by sex, race/ethnicity and age, among other
variables.
Karen Young Kreeger (kykreeger@aol.com) is a contributing editor.
References
1. M.J. Berg, “Pharmacological differences between men and women,” In:
Principles of Clinical Pharmacology, A.J. Atkinson, Jr., et al., eds., New
York: Academic Press, 2001.
2. Conference on Biologic and Molecular Mechanisms for Sex Differences in
Pharmacokinetics, Pharmacodynamics, and Pharmacogenetics (
www4.od.nih.gov/orwh/pharmacology/abstract1.html).
3. S.N. Ebert et al., “Female gender as a risk factor for drug-induced
cardiac arrhythmias: evaluation of clinical and experimental evidence,”
Journal of Women’s Health, 7:547-57, 1998.
4. B.H. Shapiro et al., “Gender Differences in Drug Metabolism Regulated by
Growth Hormone,” International Journal of Biochemistry and Cell Biology,
27:9-20, 1995.
5. M. Smolensky and L. Lamberg, The Body Clock Guide to Better Health: How to
Use Your Body’s Natural Clock to Fight Illnesses and Achieve Maximum Health,
New York: Henry Holt & Co., 2001.
6. K.H. Lew et al., “Gender-based effects on methylprednisolone
pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics,” Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics
, 54: 402-14, 1993.
7. M.H. Magee et al., “Prednisolone pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics in
relation to sex and race,” Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 41:1180-94,
2001.
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and women
Date: March 26, 2002 at 1:08:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Realised I didn;t title the email which means people may have missed it.
Also left something from an old email at the top. So here it is again.
I am in the middle of a treatment with a female heroin user – half a gram a
day smoked. I have just treated her boyfriend successfully, no problems ad
he has come away feeling ‘reborn’.
However she doesn’t seem to be feeling it, four/five hours after ingesting
she said she wanted to go to sleep ie don’t think she is really having a
full on experience anymore. She is already getting restless, something that
doesn’t normally happen until 12 hours later.
As I have been lying there in silence it suddenly struck me that of all the
people I have treated there is always more of a problem with women in that
they just don’t seem to feel it as much. Now this goes against everything
written which says take more care with women, they metabolise more
noribogaine ad keep it in the blood plasma for longer etc.
I have found that the men treated have been nearly 100% success ad the women
about 30%!!! this is quite a difference.
Now maybe it is because I give a slightly lower dose to women – 17mg/kg
rather than 18/19mg per kg – this is done because of all the warnings and
even exclusion of females from human studies.
Maybe it has something to do with bodyfat – the skinnier the women the less
they feel it – in my experience.
Anyway I am puzzled, at a loss of what to do. Avoiding stepped dosing, only
done that once and the subject didn’t feel the booster.
Can anyone shed light, and does anyone do stepped dosing.
This is such unchartered territory, and I thought this was really the type
of thing that would be discussed on this list rather than a lot of the inane
ramblings that seem to pop up.
Help appreciated,
Hattie
In a message dated 3/25/02 7:55:42 PM, rophalvor@alloymail.com writes:
Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
I order here www.iboga.nl
Any recomend please email or post.
I would suggest you ask the supplier to provide that information. Then, let
the list know what response you received.
Howard
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 26, 2002 at 1:06:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
on 3/26/02 2:30 AM, HSLotsof@aol.com at HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
I am in the middle of a treatment with a female heroin user – half a gram a
day smoked. I have just treated her boyfriend successfully, no problems ad
he has come away feeling reborn.
However she doesn’t seem to be feeling it, four/five hours after ingesting
she said she wanted to go to sleep ie don’t think she is really having a
full on experience anymore. She is already getting restless, something that
doesn’t normally happen until 12 hours later.
As I have been lying there in silence it suddenly struck me that of all the
people I have treated there is always more of a problem with women in that
they just don’t seem to feel it as much. Now this goes against everything
written which says take more care with women, they metabolise more
noribogaine ad keep it in the blood plasma for longer etc.
I have found that the men treated have been nearly 100% success ad the women
about 30%!!! this is quite a difference.
Now maybe it is because I give a slightly lower dose to women – 17mg/kg
rather than 18/19mg per kg – this is done because of all the warnings and
even exclusion of females from human studies.
Maybe it has something to do with bodyfat – the skinnier the women the less
they feel it – in my experience.
Anyway I am puzzled, at a loss of what to do. Avoiding stepped dosing, only
done that once and the subject didn’t feel the booster.
Can anyone shed light, ad does anyone do stepped dosing.
This is such unchartered territory, and I thought this was really the type
of thing that would be discussed on this list rather than a lot of the inane
ramblings that seem to pop up.
Help appreciated,
Hattie
In a message dated 3/25/02 7:55:42 PM, rophalvor@alloymail.com writes:
Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
I order here www.iboga.nl
Any recomend please email or post.
I would suggest you ask the supplier to provide that information. Then, let
the list know what response you received.
Howard
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 26, 2002 at 11:07:39 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
PK
I thought folk were asking you to tell your Iboga story; what happened? Why
u think it helped U
How u now stay off and so on, no?
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 24 March 2002 19:59
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
On [Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 02:21:18PM -0500], [Alex Zelchenko] wrote:
| Patrick I think the point that some people are
| trying to get across to you is you are very
| eloquent, you’re charismatic, you promote
| ibogaine. But you say nothing about what
| >you< did to get from where you were to where
| you are. Never.
<lotsa stuff cut…>
Dude, yeah, I wrote all that. How ‘zactly it pertains to “recovery” I am
unsure.
I am me. I was me even while strung out on heroin and unable to step off.
The molecules which allowed me to [1] get unsprung, and [2] reintegrate,
are both currently schedule 1 substances (those molecules being ibogaine,
and LSD, respectively).
The fact that ibogaine will unspring you, is very clear — to me anyway,
so I have no qualms whatsoever stating exactly that. The fact that LSD
will reintegrate you . . . well, that’s not so very clear. At least not
without some external support, for most people. It works for me, this not
not mean it’ll work for everyone else.
After the last ibogaine I went to an ashram. It was filled with people
who did not tell me what to do, or have any great advice. “Well, you can
do this, that, or the other thing. But really, it’s not like you hafta do
anything.”
What they did was leave me alone, and NOT get in my face, telling me what
I had to do. I asked them questions, “Does this actually work?” To which
they gave honest answers, “Well, no. It USED TO work, but with the
current generation, it doesn’t seem to do much of anything. The kids no
longer believe in any of this, your society has pervaded all cultures, and
their belief is dead.”
What works is having FAITH, in yourself, and having BELIEF. Whatcha
believe in is irrelevent, so long as you do. Without belief, intellect
and willpower are not enough; because without belief, everything else will
fall apart in the onslaught of day to day consensual reality, which will
attempt to break you down . . . and eventually overwhelm you . . . if you
do not have belief.
I will put together an addiction thing, sync some of the 12 step stuff
which has worked for Dave, etc. In fact I gotta do that within the next
12 hours or so. But I am unclear — still — what alla “you” people
want…? I don’t even classify myself as being in “recovery.” I shot
dope, after a while it no longer did what I wanted it to do, thus, after
some trial and error I stopped shooting dope. The end.
Patrick
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Patrick and Dave
Date: March 26, 2002 at 9:35:33 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick
Enuff already!!
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 23 March 2002 20:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Patrick and Dave
On [Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:36:15AM -0800], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:
| I know you’re all lovable weirdos and freaks but I must say, I don’t
| mind pornography, I believe in freedom of speech but if rotten.com were
| shut down tomorrow I’d say thank god. Saying that site makes me sick is
| a understatement. I feel like washing off my mouse and windexing the
| screen after I’ve seen it.
I’m not a freak and/or weirdo. I’m totally normal, everyone else is off
on some other channel, this is not my fault.
| So why do I keep clicking it to shock myself?
The above is a very healthy sentence. It displays self-awareness, and a
lack of denial. It is important — as you make your Healing Journey off
Drugs — to understand that this is NOT your fault. This is your DISEASE,
underlying psychopathology, and/or ID. But it’s definitely not you.
It is important to take absolutely no responsibility for any of your
actions. This is a sign of growth and maturity. “Yo, that wuzzn’t me.
It wuz’ a Mysterious Disease!” Is always the correct answer. Most
especially in court.
Dr. Kroupa
p.s., Check out the nun masturbating with a cross, I thought that wuz
pretty tasteful. Plus, also, the Fuck of the Month Club, is always very
inspirational.
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 26, 2002 at 9:34:18 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
1 word at a time honey!
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 23 March 2002 19:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
And yes, Patrick and Dave wake up and write something. I know its a cliche
but its true, nobody listens to drug addiction ‘experts’ unless they’ve
been
drug addicts, because what do they know.
OK, I just did but I could elaborate highly. But first can I dump on the
list?
You see, cravings happen. even after ibogaine and a few years “clean”. um, I
do
consider a booster dose of Ibo from time to time, to “clean out the tubes”.
anyways I been in a major funk, wanted a thousand times to slam some dope,
drink some hycodeine (remember that shit?), drop some oxy’s ANYTHING to not
feel. couldn’t write, couldn’t create, couldn’t surf, couldn’t barely talk.
Really didn’t want to go to a meeting so I just rode the fucker out.
But hey, now that I’m feeling better I might type some shit up. But I don’t
know about them “thousand words”. I’m scared. Maybe I better drop 789mgs of
HCL
and get back to you.
-dh
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
http://movies.yahoo.com/
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Date: March 26, 2002 at 3:07:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I sincerely hope that you can join us at the XXX on the 6th to discuss the
merits of the legal remedies available to our “XX” clients as a supplement to
the primary goal of addiction therapy modalities. I feel that XXXXXX XXXX,
Attorney at Law, can assist us in providing a seamless “cure” for the
participants in order to cast off their resentment and negative energy
through a transformation into their new healthy, non-addictive and productive
lifestyles.
Cure is a mighty strong word when it comes to drug addiction…
I have also just completed my first reading of a new release called “Altered
Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self” by Todd E. Feinburg, M.D. and I see
that some conclusions have been drawn that might be relevant to our holistic
approach for substance abuse treatment. Feinburg is the Professor of
Neurology and Psychiatry at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and
Chief of the Betty and Morton Yarmon Division of Neurobehavioral and
Alzheimer’s Disease at the Beth Israel Medical Center in New York.
His recent book hypothesizes the theory of a presumed “emergence” as a
neurological basis with respect to the premise of a Cartesian duality and
supports this with case histories of asomatognosia, capgras syndrome, Fregoli
syndrome, confabulation, and other severe mental conditions. He eventually
contrasts an ephemeral “nested hierarchy of meaning” vs. simply a “purpose
for existence” as a sort of higher consciousness, and then later deduces that
the brain creates the self as a “sum greater than the parts”.
This concept seems to have some valuable merit; however, from a philosophical
perspective, this viewpoint may simply be another attempt to translate the
Kantian “I” to the Hegelian dialectical synthesis that was dispelled by
Kierkegaard in the 1800s (and again much later by the existentialists, some
post-modernists, de-constructionists, and the “process thought”
psychologists). I look forward to your comments.
Can you put this in laymans terms?
I dig alternative approaches to addiction, what is your “holistic approach”?
in what ways do you approach the three aspects (physical, emotional &
spiritual) of addiction?
I may have a couple candidates for you.
-gamma
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
http://movies.yahoo.com/
From: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self
Date: March 25, 2002 at 11:57:23 PM EST
To: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “Academic and Scholarly Discussion of Addiction Related Topics.” <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>, <12-Step_Coercion_Watch@yahoogroups.com>, <12-step-free@yahoogroups.com>, <apadiv50-forum@csd.uwm.edu>, “L-Soft list server at Kent State University \(1.8d\)” <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>, “LSRMail” <lsrmail@yahoogroups.com>, “SMART Recovery” <SRMail1@aol.com>, “SOS” <sossaveourselves@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Greetings:
The following is my inquiry to an integrative and complimetary Psychiatrist that is the proposed medical director for our new rehab facility. Some of our staff have requested to remain “off the record” at this juncture; therefore, I have respected their wishes for confidentiality and delted their names. I am; however, interested in some additional feedback from others with respect to this post. Thank you for your valuable time and consideration…
Greetings XXX:
I sincerely hope that you can join us at the XXX on the 6th to discuss the merits of the legal remedies available to our “XX” clients as a supplement to the primary goal of addiction therapy modalities. I feel that XXXXXX XXXX, Attorney at Law, can assist us in providing a seamless “cure” for the participants in order to cast off their resentment and negative energy through a transformation into their new healthy, non-addictive and productive lifestyles.
I have also just completed my first reading of a new release called “Altered Egos: How the Brain Creates the Self” by Todd E. Feinburg, M.D. and I see that some conclusions have been drawn that might be relevant to our holistic approach for substance abuse treatment. Feinburg is the Professor of Neurology and Psychiatry at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and Chief of the Betty and Morton Yarmon Division of Neurobehavioral and Alzheimer’s Disease at the Beth Israel Medical Center in New York.
His recent book hypothesizes the theory of a presumed “emergence” as a neurological basis with respect to the premise of a Cartesian duality and supports this with case histories of asomatognosia, capgras syndrome, Fregoli syndrome, confabulation, and other severe mental conditions. He eventually contrasts an ephemeral “nested hierarchy of meaning” vs. simply a “purpose for existence” as a sort of higher consciousness, and then later deduces that the brain creates the self as a “sum greater than the parts”.
This concept seems to have some valuable merit; however, from a philosophical perspective, this viewpoint may simply be another attempt to translate the Kantian “I” to the Hegelian dialectical synthesis that was dispelled by Kierkegaard in the 1800s (and again much later by the existentialists, some post-modernists, de-constructionists, and the “process thought” psychologists). I look forward to your comments.
Les Smith, CFO
“OM” / WNCREF
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Hum . . .
Date: March 25, 2002 at 11:23:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Do0d, try to be more sensitive to persons of the male gender who are
attempting to Free their Inner Bitch. We are nothing if not politicallY
correcT here.
Not me.
— and I write back —
PC is dead. anything goes. besides all that, I am wearing my wifes bra at the
moment. it is “quite” liberating. I should try this more often.
now what was the topic?
-Dave still not hear.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
http://movies.yahoo.com/
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Hum . . .
Date: March 25, 2002 at 11:14:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 07:17:40PM -0800], [Gamma] wrote:
| — “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
| > On [Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 01:52:54PM -0800], [vector6@space.com] wrote:
| >
| > Look, first of all, just shut up and stop cross-posting crazy nonsense
| > from one list to the other. Dave understands why there are two lists, why
| > don’t you…? Saying, “but I’m 14” is no excuse.
|
| who the hell is Dave?
|
| logical conclusion: “Daves not here, man.”
|
| -gamma
|
| p.s. I wonder if cross posters are also cross dressers, oh shit maybe I opened
| yet another kan of werms.
Do0d, try to be more sensitive to persons of the male gender who are
attempting to Free their Inner Bitch. We are nothing if not politicallY
correcT here.
Not me.
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 25, 2002 at 11:01:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 07:55:04PM -0500], [Rop Halvor] wrote:
| Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
|
| I order here www.iboga.nl
|
| Any recomend please email or post.
|
| Thanks
To the best of my knowledge, the materials this dude is selling are
neither extract (Indra) nor HCl. He is selling the actual root bark —
although, in highly pretty, nicely printed, vitamin-style labelled
bottles.
I know exactly one anecdotal report of a guy who detoxed using it. He did
so by purchasing sumthin’ like 20 bottles of the materials, started
tossing the rootbark into his daily heroin intake; tapered downwards with
the heroin/upwards with the root bark; until he was doing only rootbark,
sumthin’ like 15 days out — and stepped off and had been clean for
sumthin’ like 2 months when I met him in London.
Nick may have more information — the dude was that headbanging, Crowley
deck readin’ Mohawk wearing, guy who sat next to us for like 45 minutes.
I think Dana was there too. He had the Pretty Bottle with him, and was
Radiating Joy and Happiness.
Whether what he did is common, or just Completely Fucking Crazy; who
knows. It seems to have worked for him.
Patrick
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Hum . . .
Date: March 25, 2002 at 10:17:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 01:52:54PM -0800], [vector6@space.com] wrote:
Look, first of all, just shut up and stop cross-posting crazy nonsense
from one list to the other. Dave understands why there are two lists, why
don’t you…? Saying, “but I’m 14” is no excuse.
who the hell is Dave?
logical conclusion: “Daves not here, man.”
-gamma
p.s. I wonder if cross posters are also cross dressers, oh shit maybe I opened
yet another kan of werms.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
http://movies.yahoo.com/
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 25, 2002 at 9:30:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/25/02 7:55:42 PM, rophalvor@alloymail.com writes:
Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
I order here www.iboga.nl
Any recomend please email or post.
I would suggest you ask the supplier to provide that information. Then, let
the list know what response you received.
Howard
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 25, 2002 at 9:24:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hcl is the pure, unadulterated form of the ibogaine molecule (in a perfect
world)
ibogaine extract (aka indra) is a crude extraction which as a whole lot of
other stuff including plant material and related alkaloids.
like, hcl is pure china white and indra is black tar heroin.
ok?
ok.
-gamma
— Rop Halvor <rophalvor@alloymail.com> wrote:
Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
I order here www.iboga.nl
Any recomend please email or post.
Thanks
rop
—
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From: “Rop Halvor” <rophalvor@alloymail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine and extract?
Date: March 25, 2002 at 7:55:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please what difference between ibogaine, extract and hcl?
I order here www.iboga.nl
Any recomend please email or post.
Thanks
rop
—
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Hum . . .
Date: March 25, 2002 at 5:11:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 01:52:54PM -0800], [vector6@space.com] wrote:
Look, first of all, just shut up and stop cross-posting crazy nonsense
from one list to the other. Dave understands why there are two lists, why
don’t you…? Saying, “but I’m 14” is no excuse.
We are aware of all your observations, we know all this, ACTIONS are being
considered, SOMETHING will probably be done, at some point or another.
| I did have a ibogaine related question 😎 What the hell is
| ibogaine.net? Why are you running 30 different melting banners for it.
| It doesn’t go anywhere except from 3.5 millionth, to 1 millionth or so,
| without even existing as anything but a page which goes to ibogaine
| research or heavling whatever
Obviously it’s this THING. It is Yet Another THING which is on my top 500
list of THINGS to finish in the next 22.5 minutes, which I haven’t gotten
around to doing yet. It will be the Very Greatest THING that has ever
existed. At which point it will be THROWN to SLAVERING JACKALS; I meant
to say, lawyers; who will RIP IT TO PIECES, and roughly 12% of my THING
will survive to see the Light of Night. 6 months later — after further
consideration — they will ask me to REMOVE 52% of the remaining 12% of my
THING, resulting in, Something Completely Different.
There, are you happy now?
Patrick
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Hum . . .
Date: March 25, 2002 at 4:52:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Looked at google translating the tag lines, so far I’ve got: Hawkwind, King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Sisters of Mercy, Shakespeare, Nietsche, Lewis Carrol and the Clash. My favorite is one of yours: “DSM-IV Simplified: (Please Select) [1] Completely Fucking Crazy, or [2] Full of Shit.” Perfect My advice is to start taking paying banners from hustler, penthouse and amazon.com. You guys just jumped to 24,000. Another few weeks and you’ll break the top 10,000 without being open. You’re going to need money to buy more hardware. god help you if you ever open this thing, goodbye slashdot hello freakshow. I did have a ibogaine related question 😎 What the hell is ibogaine.net? Why are you running 30 different melting banners for it. It doesn’t go anywhere except from 3.5 millionth, to 1 millionth or so, without even existing as anything but a page which goes to ibogaine research or heavling whatever. What a great morning on the vox list 😎 .:vector:. On Mon, 25 March 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote > > On [Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 01:35:39PM -0500], [NeuroSkull@aol.com] wrote: > > | I don’t remember signing up for the list either. (It was probably during an > | upswing of manic depression for which I currently take Effexor) however, I > | like being on the list. As soon as I finish my Alien/Dinosaur/Genesis > | Creation website I will post here. > > Looking forward to it. Incidentally, Effexor is the #1 rated med amongst > doctors who are their own best patients, and have tried all other meds — > often all at once. Thumbs uP dood. > > Perhaps there should be like a SURVEY: “Do you remember how you got here, > and how stoned/altered were you, when it seemed like a good idea to sign > up!” > > [1]: huh? > [2]: i have no idea. > [3]: where is this? > [4]: i fucked who? > > Okay, after this, no more secret origins. > > Patrick > > THIS is why YOU are here: > > – – – – – – – – – > > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:33:41 EST > From: NeuroSkull@aol.com > Subject: A moment in time > To: accounts@mindvox.com > X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10556 > > Please allow me this brief moment in time toshare the Good News with you. The > Good News is that there is no condemnationfor those that trust in Jesus. > Turnaway from sin and unfaithfulness and put your trust and faith in > JesusChrist. When He died on the cross, Hetook the punishment for all our > sins. Then He rose from the dead, defeatingdeath. Confess your sins to God, > putyour faith in Jesus, and you will pass from death into eternal life.
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From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] …and now for something completelt different!
Date: March 24, 2002 at 7:40:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“Charmed life” huh?
well Nevik Ogre (Skinny Puppy) said: “Comfort is
Treachery”
…and so it goes…
Patrick, what happened? Call my cell, I’m in
Austin/Houston.
-Bob-
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] this list
Date: March 24, 2002 at 5:05:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:53:34PM -0800], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:
| On a completely different topic, this is one of the lines on mindvox
| that rotate, where is this from????
|
| “I believe it’s neither wrong nor right, to cross the line from
| darkness into light.”
|
| Who said that or sings that??
That’s Mike Ness, “Charmed Life” offa “Cheating at Solitaire.” Mike Ness
has gone solo after sumthin’ like 20+ years with Social Distortion —
timewise, not work-wise, since I think he spent quite a few years in
prison, or just bouncing around being strung out — he just got off tour
with Eddie Veder and Beck (go figure). Dopefiend Blues is pretty neat0
too.
SD is sumthin’ like the Sex Pistols/Ramones, him solo, is more blues,
rock, with way too much Johnny Cash thrown in <shrug>.
All the lines that appear in quotes, are not attributed, ‘cuz we’re trying
for an 800×600 interface, and the names wouldn’t fit. But you can toss
any of ’em into google, and 99% of the time, if you include the quotation
marks, it’ll find it, and tell you what it is.
Patrick
From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] this list
Date: March 24, 2002 at 4:53:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wow, this list has been great today!
Patrick I want to be really clear that I wasn’t picking on you in any way, reading some of this I see that maybe I had no reason to request anything else.
You’re very irreverent sometimes 😉
On a completely different topic, this is one of the lines on mindvox that rotate, where is this from????
“I believe it’s neither wrong nor right, to cross the line from darkness into light.”
Who said that or sings that??
thanks!
-carrie
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 24, 2002 at 7:16:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: barlow@eff.org
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To give my input. I won’t be wordy or take up
many paragraphs without saying anything.
Patrick I think the point that some people are
trying to get across to you is you are very
eloquent, you’re charismatic, you promote
ibogaine. But you say nothing about what
you< did to get from where you were to where
you are. Never.
I know some of Dr. Mash’s “iboganauts” you’re
this legend that is somewhere off in the
distance, you got thrown out of 3 or 4 rehabs
within days of entering them, you left
treatment to go on a 6 week heroin and cocaine
run and took 3 other former clients with you.
You were voted most likely to die within 24
hours and never clean up.
After ibogaine 2 or 3 for you, everything went
in the opposite direction. You still haven’t
taken a word of anyone’s advice, but you’ve
outlasted almost everyone. Certainly the
clients, most of the counselors and some of the
owners.
I’ve seen videotape of you speaking to NIDA, I
haven’t seen the London conference, Mindvox is
stunning, it’s beautiful. But it could be said
that you could offer a lot more by sharing at
least some of what you did, besides ibogaine.
You did ibogaine 2 or 3 times to stay clean,
but all this energy you give to ibogaine and I
don’t mean Dr. Mash, you say nice things about
her but you promote all ibogaine, everywhere. I
think that’s very worthy of you. And I think
you’d have a lot more to share.
I don’t think this is your duty or obligation,
but there are an awful lot of people who are
the “freaks” and hardcore, who don’t take
advice, who would listen to you, for the same
reason ibogaine people like to put you up on a
stage. You promote ibogaine effectively and you
scare the crap out of doctors and treatment
professionals, because you’re very smart and
understand what they’re saying. Dr. Mash cannot
go up on stage and say, “your treatment sucks
and doesn’t work” and then follow it up with
why it sucks, why it doesn’t work and how many
times she’s tried it. You can. You do.
Howard says that you don’t have to be in a group– you just have to
be working on something like Ibogaine, and in any aspect of it.
Do a little for recovery instead of just detox.
There is more to life then ibogaine.
Working for Ibogine access for all can be an organizing principle of
a lifetime.
Dana/cnw
Enclosed are some of my favorite words about a
few topics, neither one directly related to
recovery. They should look familiar. You wrote
them, about 10 years ago. Not bad for someone
who was 21 or 22. You should read them
sometime, they’re online the system that you
fellows never seem to get around to re opening.
With gratitude,
Alex
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and methadone
Date: March 24, 2002 at 3:57:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/24/02 3:55:08 PM, vector6@space.com writes:
Did DXM stop tolerance to methadone? And does that mean that junkies who
take DXM would get higher off of smaller doses?
Theoretically!
Howard
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Brazilian Ibogaine Treatments
Date: March 24, 2002 at 3:55:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sun, 24 March 2002, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote > > Very interesting url. Possibly a dumb question as you are on an ibogaine > list but, do you have experience with ibogaine treated patients? > > Thanks > > Howard Nice URL. Looking at the prices for 12 days, I’m sure Dr. Mash’s clients land there 🙂 .:vector:.
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From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and methadone
Date: March 24, 2002 at 3:54:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sat, 23 March 2002, Dana Beal wrote > No–with methadone. Ibogaine already works like DXM, only DXM is > 1/1700th as strong as ibo in this respect. Anyway, you don’t have to > add the effect of modulate that of 18MC. > > > Why? > > They administered DXM to see if it would stop buildup of tolerance to > methadone. Ok I got it. Tnx for clarifying. Did DXM stop tolerence to methadone? And does that mean that junkies who take DXM would get higher off of smaller doses? .:vector:.
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 24, 2002 at 2:58:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 02:21:18PM -0500], [Alex Zelchenko] wrote:
| Patrick I think the point that some people are
| trying to get across to you is you are very
| eloquent, you’re charismatic, you promote
| ibogaine. But you say nothing about what
| >you< did to get from where you were to where
| you are. Never.
<lotsa stuff cut…>
Dude, yeah, I wrote all that. How ‘zactly it pertains to “recovery” I am
unsure.
I am me. I was me even while strung out on heroin and unable to step off.
The molecules which allowed me to [1] get unsprung, and [2] reintegrate,
are both currently schedule 1 substances (those molecules being ibogaine,
and LSD, respectively).
The fact that ibogaine will unspring you, is very clear — to me anyway,
so I have no qualms whatsoever stating exactly that. The fact that LSD
will reintegrate you . . . well, that’s not so very clear. At least not
without some external support, for most people. It works for me, this not
not mean it’ll work for everyone else.
After the last ibogaine I went to an ashram. It was filled with people
who did not tell me what to do, or have any great advice. “Well, you can
do this, that, or the other thing. But really, it’s not like you hafta do
anything.”
What they did was leave me alone, and NOT get in my face, telling me what
I had to do. I asked them questions, “Does this actually work?” To which
they gave honest answers, “Well, no. It USED TO work, but with the
current generation, it doesn’t seem to do much of anything. The kids no
longer believe in any of this, your society has pervaded all cultures, and
their belief is dead.”
What works is having FAITH, in yourself, and having BELIEF. Whatcha
believe in is irrelevent, so long as you do. Without belief, intellect
and willpower are not enough; because without belief, everything else will
fall apart in the onslaught of day to day consensual reality, which will
attempt to break you down . . . and eventually overwhelm you . . . if you
do not have belief.
I will put together an addiction thing, sync some of the 12 step stuff
which has worked for Dave, etc. In fact I gotta do that within the next
12 hours or so. But I am unclear — still — what alla “you” people
want…? I don’t even classify myself as being in “recovery.” I shot
dope, after a while it no longer did what I wanted it to do, thus, after
some trial and error I stopped shooting dope. The end.
Patrick
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 24, 2002 at 2:53:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/24/02 2:23:15 PM, alexzel@wildmail.com writes:
<< Do a little for recovery instead of just detox.
There is more to life then ibogaine. >>
Choosing to become an ibogaine zealot is a form of recovery. It is something
really great and fulfilling and empowering to do. It places so much
responsibility on you that you want not to go back to being drug dependent
just so you can continue to promote ibogaine. It is a belief system in
itself.
Take ibogaine. Promote ibogaine. Do it all the time and chances are you
will manage your drug use. The word “manage” is self defined.
Howard
From: “Alex Zelchenko” <alexzel@wildmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] enclosure 2
Date: March 24, 2002 at 2:24:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Your words once more Patrick (why don’t >you<
read them):
***
From: digital@phantom.com (Patrick K. Kroupa)
It can be really fucking hard to get a grip on
the veil of reality, and start the momentum
going wherein actual change is effected.
Because you have to do a *LOT* of junk you
really don’t care about in order to make things
happen — a tremendous amount of “information”
people pass along, tends to be silly, bordering
on ridiculous, and will survive the harsh glare
of “meat reality” for about 5 seconds. In
order to make things happen IN HERE, it is
currently necessary to make things happen OUT
THERE; and all the wishful thinking in the
world, isn’t gonna change that for some time to
come. If you want shit to happen, then first,
you need to have absolute belief in your
vision, and you need to be able to effectively
and coherently impart not only the facts, but
also the zeal behind what you are saying, to
people who are in a position to help you. You
have to filter that information in such a
manner that it connects to something within
THEM and suddenly you are working from within
the same paradigm and they BELIEVE, at first,
one by one, then ten by ten, then . . . But you
gotta DO IT and in order to do it you have to
believe it yourself and when you speak, then
the fucking heavens had better open and your
absolute faith and confidence in this vision
needs to spill out and reach those around you.
And then heaven and earth will move.
PrAISE G0[> and pass the TeleVisI0n
All the philosophy and intellectual
discussion concerning the relative merits of
anything, will NEVER lead anywhere.
Masturbation is fine if you’re writing a book
or sitting in a bar shooting the shit and
working glimmers of thoughts or ideas, into
something greater. But when it comes down to
it none of it will ever happen if at some point
you do not take the advice of the magical
glowing box and JUST DO IT. If it isn’t
broken, break it, disconnect it, reconnect it,
everything is an endlessly interlocking series
of systems within systems, and within the
spirals of fragments, run the currents of
understanding, and understanding is control,
control is power, and power is the knowledge
that ultimately all of it is worthless . . .
Information is, in and of
itself . . . rather worthless. All information
can ever be, is disembodied smaller fragments
of a greater whole, pieces of something that
you have been conditioned to react to in some
manner. The beautiful paradox of it all is,
you need to learn and experience enough, to
reach the stage at which you can realize that
everything you know and understand, is just
this game you’re playing with yourself and has
no real meaning . . .
And I’m tired. I’m so fucking
tired . . . If I was a hundred years old at 8,
what does that make me now . . . 3,000, and I
am completely surrounded, there is nothing,
nowhere, never, never, shrinks, lawyers, people
who want to prosecute me, institionalize her,
people who want more energy from me, how am I
supposed to transmit belief and give energy to
yet another reporter, yet another group of
people who want something, when I have not
slept, in days . . . I can’t do this, I just
want to sleep for a month, I have nothing left,
running on empty is a fantasy, I am a black
hole. How long have I been saying I can’t do
this anymore for another minute . . . half my
life.
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From: “Alex Zelchenko” <alexzel@wildmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] enclosures
Date: March 24, 2002 at 2:23:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Your words (Patrick) from 1992 or 1993
***
From: digital@phantom.com (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Uhmmmmm . . .
Okay, like, <waiting for my train of
thought . . . <choo> CHOO <chug
<chug> . . . guess its not coming, maybe they
lied to me and phenobarbital
isn’t really a SmArt_DruG>
From my personal, carefully cultivated
observations, being a person and
being alive and stuff; people are pretty
fucked up and in pain. To be alive,
tends to mean you hurt . . . when you’re in
pain, it’s also human nature, to
kinda pass that along to others around you, and
if you’re not too happy,
well then FUCK THEM, because they’re blind, and
just don’t see how fucking
ripping life can be.
Sometimes, after feeling that way for a
long time, you take some drugs,
read some books, think for a while, fall in
love, have a cast off piece of a
UFO hit you in the head and make you SEE TRUTH,
or occasionally all of these
things happen, all at once, while you’re
walking down this road made out of
yellow bricks on your way to see the_therapist,
and ya realize that you’re not
required to hurt all the time, and life is
actually, exactly how you perceive
it to be.
Of course, its hard to live within that
state, and really easy to fall
from “people who are attacking me for no
particular reason are just ignorant,
or experiencing a lot of inner turmoil” and
move right along to “that
fuckhead needs his/her head caved in with a
sledgehammer.” And that’s okay,
the only question is, what are you trying to
get across to someone else . . .
what’s the purpose of your communication …
I don’t think that THINGS really change
much by indoctrination, force,
politics, or any external stimulus. All that
tends to do is make whoever has
the short end of the new deal, start plotting
how to TAKE SHIT OVER, and do
onto others, what’s being done onto them.
Positive change happens when people change
themselves, when you can take
the armour off at least once in a while and
become open to yourself, and what
you are . . . and see that within other people,
which makes them something
positive or beautiful, regardless how many
layers of pain and fear its hidden
beneath … and perhaps bring that out in them,
so they too can at least have
an experience of that state where the armour is
off for a while.
So far as communication goes . . . its
often, or even usually, not “fair.”
If you want to get your point across, a
conversation usually works the same
way as a seduction. Debates are ehhhhh . . .
its easy to “win” a debate, if
you’re strong on facts, pump them and dismiss
your opponent’s weak logic, if
you lack facts, play to the audience and get an
emotional response from them,
regardless what the “judges” say, you’ve won —
‘cuz, the judges never really
judge, the media that goes home and writes
about is what you’re aiming at.
If you want to “win” then everything you need
to know about how human beings
have always worked and pretty much still work
is in two books, one’s by
Machiavelli and it’s called THE PRINCE, the
other is by Sun Tzu and its called
Unix System Administration System-V— err, I
meant; THE ART OF WAR. It’s all
pretty paint by the numbers and once you
practice a bit, anybody can get the
hang of it and become President of Intel, or
failing that, The United States,
or at least get a radio show. “Winning” has
nothing to do with the concept
of “truth” — whatever that means to you.
If you want to communicate — as opposed
to “win,” then the only way to
do that is to put the other person into a state
that is receptive to hearing
what you’re saying. And the only time that
happens is when you get your ego,
your armour, out of the way, and if the other
person steps on you, or hits you,
then relax, because if you have taken off the
armour, they can’t “hit” you,
there isn’t anything to strike at except your
ego … if you can have empathy
for another person, then pretty soon, they will
in turn be open to you and
whatever you have to say, and you will be
communicating.
Anyway, try not to bite people’s heads
off, digesting all that can make
your stomach hurt.
Okay well, my work here is done, for a
alpha copy of my thoughts held in
time its ok, because the constructs of form and
diction have held enough
continuity to paste paragraphs of HEAVY PETTING
into this and that, which is
like the textual equivalent of reaching through
the monitor, patting you on
the head and saying “there there, it’ll be ok”
which would be followed by some
nice words about why stock is up and the des
moines plant is 17% more
productive in mexico (wouldn’t you be?)
Dr. Seuss
<Losing the Jesus Christ Pose>
[ Area: MindVox /
Forum: Vox ]
[Return] 3-7052, [Q]uit:
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From: “Alex Zelchenko” <alexzel@wildmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Thoughts on recovery
Date: March 24, 2002 at 2:21:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To give my input. I won’t be wordy or take up
many paragraphs without saying anything.
Patrick I think the point that some people are
trying to get across to you is you are very
eloquent, you’re charismatic, you promote
ibogaine. But you say nothing about what
you< did to get from where you were to where
you are. Never.
I know some of Dr. Mash’s “iboganauts” you’re
this legend that is somewhere off in the
distance, you got thrown out of 3 or 4 rehabs
within days of entering them, you left
treatment to go on a 6 week heroin and cocaine
run and took 3 other former clients with you.
You were voted most likely to die within 24
hours and never clean up.
After ibogaine 2 or 3 for you, everything went
in the opposite direction. You still haven’t
taken a word of anyone’s advice, but you’ve
outlasted almost everyone. Certainly the
clients, most of the counselors and some of the
owners.
I’ve seen videotape of you speaking to NIDA, I
haven’t seen the London conference, Mindvox is
stunning, it’s beautiful. But it could be said
that you could offer a lot more by sharing at
least some of what you did, besides ibogaine.
You did ibogaine 2 or 3 times to stay clean,
but all this energy you give to ibogaine and I
don’t mean Dr. Mash, you say nice things about
her but you promote all ibogaine, everywhere. I
think that’s very worthy of you. And I think
you’d have a lot more to share.
I don’t think this is your duty or obligation,
but there are an awful lot of people who are
the “freaks” and hardcore, who don’t take
advice, who would listen to you, for the same
reason ibogaine people like to put you up on a
stage. You promote ibogaine effectively and you
scare the crap out of doctors and treatment
professionals, because you’re very smart and
understand what they’re saying. Dr. Mash cannot
go up on stage and say, “your treatment sucks
and doesn’t work” and then follow it up with
why it sucks, why it doesn’t work and how many
times she’s tried it. You can. You do.
Do a little for recovery instead of just detox.
There is more to life then ibogaine.
Enclosed are some of my favorite words about a
few topics, neither one directly related to
recovery. They should look familiar. You wrote
them, about 10 years ago. Not bad for someone
who was 21 or 22. You should read them
sometime, they’re online the system that you
fellows never seem to get around to re opening.
With gratitude,
Alex
http://www.care2.com – Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Brazilian Ibogaine Treatments
Date: March 24, 2002 at 2:05:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/24/02 1:16:43 PM, leesmithjr@prodigy.net writes:
<< A very interesting concept… I have attached some files about our new
holistic substance abuse treatment program to open in the mountains of
Western North Carolina. The website is http://newfrontier.com/om
I look forward to your questions and comments. >>
Very interesting url. Possibly a dumb question as you are on an ibogaine
list but, do you have experience with ibogaine treated patients?
Thanks
Howard
From: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Brazilian Ibogaine Treatments
Date: March 24, 2002 at 1:04:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Cc: <chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk>, <biuro_69@csk.pl>, “Hattie” <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, <actupny@panix.com>, “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>, <GroveDS@aol.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Dana:
A very interesting concept… I have attached some files about our new holistic substance abuse treatment program to open in the mountains of Western North Carolina. The website is http://newfrontier.com/om
I look forward to your questions and comments.
Sincerely,
Les Smith, CFO
“OM” / WNCREF
—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk ; biuro_69@csk.pl ; Hattie ; tony conte ; Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt ; Gregory Lake ; actupny@panix.com ; Allan clear ; GroveDS@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 1:08 AM
Subject: Brazilian Ibogaine Treatments
Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:08:14 -0800 (PST)
From: “… …” <ibogaine2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Ibogaine Treatment in Brazil
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Status:
IBOGAINE TREATMENT
Contacts
SuZana
Ph.: 0055 21 9885 9162
ibogaine2002@yahoo.com
Duration & Local
The seven day treatment takes place at a home-based clinic in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Required information about the client/patient
– How old are you?
– To which substances are you addicted? Heroin, Cocaine, Methadone, others?
– For how long have you been addicted?
– How would you describe your physical health?
– How would you describe your mental health? Do you have any psychological disorders?
– Are you currently taking any medications?
– Do you have any dietary restrictions?
– What are your expectations about the Ibogaine treatment?
Procedure guidelines
– Good general health is a necessity for undergoing treatment. Therefore, a complete medical evaluation is required prior to acceptance into the program.
– You must sign a responsibility waiver before entering the program. This is a document stating that you are voluntarily and willingly undergoing treatment and accept all conditions and guidelines.
– No additional persons may accompany you during treatment.
– You are not allowed to leave the home-based clinic unaccompanied.
– You may not consume any alcohol or narcotics within 10 hours of starting the treatment (mixing iboga with any kind of opiate is very dangerous, often deadly)
Treatment Phases
– Evaluation of your life history, substance abuse history, psychosocial review, psychological evaluation
– Ibogaine Administration
– Individual therapy sessions and establishment of a relapse prevention program
After Care
– Personal support via e-mail when requested
– Follow-up: Periodic contact (at three months, six months and one year) via e-mail to receive updated information on your recovery progress.
Treatment conceptual framework
Relapse occurs in a significantly smaller percentage of treatments when administration is followed by therapy; this is a very important component of the recovery .
The kind of therapy offered after the initial ibogaine experience is based on a postmodern constructivist model, Depth Oriented Brief Therapy (for more information, check out www.dobt.com).
You will undergo Ibogaine administration under strict supervision and after this you will be closely monitored for the next days, remaining in residential treatment. Our main goals in terms of therapy are:
– to develop insights into the patterns of personal behavior which resulted in substance abuse
– to develop insights into how your thoughts, feelings and attitudes affect behavior
– to develop coping and decision-making skills, while increasing your self-esteem
– to learn the necessary coping skills to prevent relapse, while developing a personalized relapse prevention plan
Payment
The price (500 dollars) includes the Ibogaine extract, treatment, room and board.
Payment in full is required in order to confirm your reservation.
Please contact Indra for more information regarding payment.
Final notes
Be aware that Brazil requires a tourist visa of all American citizens, so if you are considering coming you must arrange this paper work in advance.
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Brazilian Ibogaine Treatments
Date: March 24, 2002 at 1:08:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, actupny@panix.com, “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>, GroveDS@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:08:14 -0800 (PST)
From: “… …” <ibogaine2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Ibogaine Treatment in Brazil
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Status:
IBOGAINE TREATMENT
Contacts
SuZana
Ph.: 0055 21 9885 9162
ibogaine2002@yahoo.com
Duration & Local
The seven day treatment takes place at a home-based clinic in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Required information about the client/patient
– How old are you?
– To which substances are you addicted? Heroin, Cocaine, Methadone, others?
– For how long have you been addicted?
– How would you describe your physical health?
– How would you describe your mental health? Do you have any psychological disorders?
– Are you currently taking any medications?
– Do you have any dietary restrictions?
– What are your expectations about the Ibogaine treatment?
Procedure guidelines
– Good general health is a necessity for undergoing treatment. Therefore, a complete medical evaluation is required prior to acceptance into the program.
– You must sign a responsibility waiver before entering the program. This is a document stating that you are voluntarily and willingly undergoing treatment and accept all conditions and guidelines.
– No additional persons may accompany you during treatment.
– You are not allowed to leave the home-based clinic unaccompanied.
– You may not consume any alcohol or narcotics within 10 hours of starting the treatment (mixing iboga with any kind of opiate is very dangerous, often deadly)
Treatment Phases
– Evaluation of your life history, substance abuse history, psychosocial review, psychological evaluation
– Ibogaine Administration
– Individual therapy sessions and establishment of a relapse prevention program
After Care
– Personal support via e-mail when requested
– Follow-up: Periodic contact (at three months, six months and one year) via e-mail to receive updated information on your recovery progress.
Treatment conceptual framework
Relapse occurs in a significantly smaller percentage of treatments when administration is followed by therapy; this is a very important component of the recovery .
The kind of therapy offered after the initial ibogaine experience is based on a postmodern constructivist model, Depth Oriented Brief Therapy (for more information, check out www.dobt.com).
You will undergo Ibogaine administration under strict supervision and after this you will be closely monitored for the next days, remaining in residential treatment. Our main goals in terms of therapy are:
– to develop insights into the patterns of personal behavior which resulted in substance abuse
– to develop insights into how your thoughts, feelings and attitudes affect behavior
– to develop coping and decision-making skills, while increasing your self-esteem
– to learn the necessary coping skills to prevent relapse, while developing a personalized relapse prevention plan
Payment
The price (500 dollars) includes the Ibogaine extract, treatment, room and board.
Payment in full is required in order to confirm your reservation.
Please contact Indra for more information regarding payment.
Final notes
Be aware that Brazil requires a tourist visa of all American citizens, so if you are considering coming you must arrange this paper work in advance.
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and methadone
Date: March 23, 2002 at 9:11:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well what that guy Dana Beal sent a day ago said they’re using dextro whatever, to cause you to feel your drugs more. That’s my understanding. What I’m really interested in knowing is what happens to all the people who ask all the questions about what to do after detoxing. Do any of them ever follow up and do it? I’m not a drug addict so I’ll stop now, but I am wondering if anybody ever goes and does anything or just sits and talks about it forever. You can go look up rehabs and whatnot on google and get half a million hits of output. ..:vector:. carlambarnes: >Hi, stupid question maybe. Ive read whats online and >understand a lot of it I hope 😉 > >You posted that Dr. Mash now has a patent on >noribogaine, someone named Glick has a patent on >mc18. noribogaine is the metabolite of ibogaine >while mc18 is a synthetic? Which does not actually >come from ibogaine. > >I would guess both of them are hoping that either one >of these things will work against addiction without >the hallucinations part of ibogaine? But nobody knows >that yey for sure. Am I right so far? > >What is it that this thing that was posted actually >says. I’m a little lost, they’re mixing mc18 with >that stuff that’s in nyquil? dextromethorphen or >whatever?
No–with methadone. Ibogaine already works like DXM, only DXM is 1/1700th as strong as ibo in this respect. Anyway, you don’t have to add the effect of modulate that of 18MC.
Why?
They administered DXM to see if it would stop buildup of tolerance to methadone.
> >If I said anything wrong please tell me. > >Thanks! > >Carla B HSLotsof@aol.com wrote: Eur J Pharmacol 2002 Mar 1;438(1-2):99-105 Antagonism of alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors as a strategy to reduce opioid and stimulant self-administration. Glick SD, Maisonneuve IM, Kitchen BA, Fleck MW. Center for Neuropharmacology and Neuroscience, Albany Medical College (MC-136), 47 New Scotland Avenue, 12208, Albany, NY, USA The iboga alkaloid ibogaine and the novel iboga alkaloid congener 18-methoxycoronaridine are putative anti-addictive agents. Using patch-clamp methodology, the actions of ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine at various neurotransmitter receptor ion-channel subtypes were determined. Both ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine were antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors and both agents were more potent at this site than at alpha4beta2 nicotinic receptors or at NMDA or 5-HT(3) receptors; 18-methoxycoronaridine was more selective in this regard than ibogaine. In studies of morphine and methamphetamine self-administration, the effects of low dose combinations of 18-methoxycoronaridine with mecamylamine or dextromethorphan and of mecamylamine with dextromethorphan were assessed. Mecamylamine and dextromethorphan have also been shown to be antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors. All three drug combinations decreased both morphine and methamphetamine self-administration at doses that were ineffective if administered alone. The data are consistent with the hypothesis that antagonism at alpha3beta4 receptors is a potential mechanism to modulate drug seeking behavior. 18-Methoxycoronaridine apparently has greater selectivity for this site than other agents and may be the first of a new class of synthetic agents acting via this novel mechanism to produce a broad spectrum of anti-addictive activity. *************************************************************************** ——————————————————————————– Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Patrick and Dave
Date: March 23, 2002 at 2:59:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:36:15AM -0800], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:
| I know you’re all lovable weirdos and freaks but I must say, I don’t
| mind pornography, I believe in freedom of speech but if rotten.com were
| shut down tomorrow I’d say thank god. Saying that site makes me sick is
| a understatement. I feel like washing off my mouse and windexing the
| screen after I’ve seen it.
I’m not a freak and/or weirdo. I’m totally normal, everyone else is off
on some other channel, this is not my fault.
| So why do I keep clicking it to shock myself?
The above is a very healthy sentence. It displays self-awareness, and a
lack of denial. It is important — as you make your Healing Journey off
Drugs — to understand that this is NOT your fault. This is your DISEASE,
underlying psychopathology, and/or ID. But it’s definitely not you.
It is important to take absolutely no responsibility for any of your
actions. This is a sign of growth and maturity. “Yo, that wuzzn’t me.
It wuz’ a Mysterious Disease!” Is always the correct answer. Most
especially in court.
Dr. Kroupa
p.s., Check out the nun masturbating with a cross, I thought that wuz
pretty tasteful. Plus, also, the Fuck of the Month Club, is always very
inspirational.
From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Patrick and Dave
Date: March 23, 2002 at 2:36:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
All right guys, it took only 3 or 4 sets of people to ask?
I know you’re all lovable weirdos and freaks but I must say, I don’t mind pornography, I believe in freedom of speech but if rotten.com were shut down tomorrow I’d say thank god. Saying that site makes me sick is a understatement. I feel like washing off my mouse and windexing the screen after I’ve seen it.
So why do I keep clicking it to shock myself?
-carrie
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 23, 2002 at 2:17:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And yes, Patrick and Dave wake up and write something. I know its a cliche
but its true, nobody listens to drug addiction ‘experts’ unless they’ve been
drug addicts, because what do they know.
OK, I just did but I could elaborate highly. But first can I dump on the list?
You see, cravings happen. even after ibogaine and a few years “clean”. um, I do
consider a booster dose of Ibo from time to time, to “clean out the tubes”.
anyways I been in a major funk, wanted a thousand times to slam some dope,
drink some hycodeine (remember that shit?), drop some oxy’s ANYTHING to not
feel. couldn’t write, couldn’t create, couldn’t surf, couldn’t barely talk.
Really didn’t want to go to a meeting so I just rode the fucker out.
But hey, now that I’m feeling better I might type some shit up. But I don’t
know about them “thousand words”. I’m scared. Maybe I better drop 789mgs of HCL
and get back to you.
-dh
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
http://movies.yahoo.com/
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 23, 2002 at 2:15:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:02:53AM -0800], [Gamma] wrote:
| > Dave sez’ “Yo, surfin’ rox dood! It’s highly spiritual n shit!”
| >
| > woo hoo
|
| Thats right, Billy.
|
| but seriously, find a killer fun thing to fill that void that the drugs fit so
| nicely into. macrame’, origame’, Bingo, knitting, bridge club, talent scout for
| Rotten.com, the possibilities are endless! 😉 <– didn’t know these symbols
| actually had a name untill PK came along…
|
| but in all seriousness, getting out into some fresh air and sunlight does
| wonders. make some changes. don’t go down to the local shooting gallery to show
| all your using friends how you’re squeeky clean and stuff. this usually
| backfires horribly (OK, I admit it, this is from first hand experience).
|
| I’d have to heartily agree with St. Nick… Give yourself PLEASURE (details to
| be filled in by the client side)
|
| jeez, now what was the topic???
Don’t worry, all is well. Dave and I will write an abbreviated, 4 page
long, manual, filled with more than one paragraph, some letters, and
occasional punctuation; which will Save All Humanity. And we’ll finish it
by Monday… Which coincides with HT’s deadline.
Uhm… I think, therefore I’m gonna drink some coffee and look at the
pretty pictures on rotten.com.
I have complete faith, okay Dave, email me something brilliant! And
that’ll be a good starting point.
Patrick
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 23, 2002 at 2:02:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
<large snip>
Dave sez’ “Yo, surfin’ rox dood! It’s highly spiritual n shit!”
woo hoo
Thats right, Billy.
but seriously, find a killer fun thing to fill that void that the drugs fit so
nicely into. macrame’, origame’, Bingo, knitting, bridge club, talent scout for
Rotten.com, the possibilities are endless! 😉 <– didn’t know these symbols
actually had a name untill PK came along…
but in all seriousness, getting out into some fresh air and sunlight does
wonders. make some changes. don’t go down to the local shooting gallery to show
all your using friends how you’re squeeky clean and stuff. this usually
backfires horribly (OK, I admit it, this is from first hand experience).
I’d have to heartily agree with St. Nick… Give yourself PLEASURE (details to
be filled in by the client side)
jeez, now what was the topic???
-dh
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and methadone
Date: March 23, 2002 at 11:52:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well what that guy Dana Beal sent a day ago said they’re using dextro whatever, to cause you to feel your drugs more. That’s my understanding. What I’m really interested in knowing is what happens to all the people who ask all the questions about what to do after detoxing. Do any of them ever follow up and do it? I’m not a drug addict so I’ll stop now, but I am wondering if anybody ever goes and does anything or just sits and talks about it forever. You can go look up rehabs and whatnot on google and get half a million hits of output. .:vector:. carlambarnes: >Hi, stupid question maybe. Ive read whats online and >understand a lot of it I hope 😉 > >You posted that Dr. Mash now has a patent on >noribogaine, someone named Glick has a patent on >mc18. noribogaine is the metabolite of ibogaine >while mc18 is a synthetic? Which does not actually >come from ibogaine. > >I would guess both of them are hoping that either one >of these things will work against addiction without >the hallucinations part of ibogaine? But nobody knows >that yey for sure. Am I right so far? > >What is it that this thing that was posted actually >says. I’m a little lost, they’re mixing mc18 with >that stuff that’s in nyquil? dextromethorphen or >whatever? Why? > >If I said anything wrong please tell me. > >Thanks! > >Carla B HSLotsof@aol.com wrote: Eur J Pharmacol 2002 Mar 1;438(1-2):99-105 Antagonism of alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors as a strategy to reduce opioid and stimulant self-administration. Glick SD, Maisonneuve IM, Kitchen BA, Fleck MW. Center for Neuropharmacology and Neuroscience, Albany Medical College (MC-136), 47 New Scotland Avenue, 12208, Albany, NY, USA The iboga alkaloid ibogaine and the novel iboga alkaloid congener 18-methoxycoronaridine are putative anti-addictive agents. Using patch-clamp methodology, the actions of ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine at various neurotransmitter receptor ion-channel subtypes were determined. Both ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine were antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors and both agents were more potent at this site than at alpha4beta2 nicotinic receptors or at NMDA or 5-HT(3) receptors; 18-methoxycoronaridine was more selective in this regard than ibogaine. In studies of morphine and methamphetamine self-administration, the effects of low dose combinations of 18-methoxycoronaridine with mecamylamine or dextromethorphan and of mecamylamine with dextromethorphan were assessed. Mecamylamine and dextromethorphan have also been shown to be antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors. All three drug combinations decreased both morphine and methamphetamine self-administration at doses that were ineffective if administered alone. The data are consistent with the hypothesis that antagonism at alpha3beta4 receptors is a potential mechanism to modulate drug seeking behavior. 18-Methoxycoronaridine apparently has greater selectivity for this site than other agents and may be the first of a new class of synthetic agents acting via this novel mechanism to produce a broad spectrum of anti-addictive activity. *************************************************************************** ——————————————————————————– Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Tragic News…
Date: March 23, 2002 at 4:47:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cafepress does not seem in tune with selling the MindVox syringe and
crackpipe set… Perhaps we should contact B-D medical products and the
Secret Hidden Network of Iranian Gas Station Owners directly.
Major bummer.
Perhaps they’d do a bong, or sheets of blotter art paper…
Other than the fact that most of their products suck and are the wrong
color(s), this is sorta entertaining at nearly 5am.
Patrick
Whole Entire Everything by Drew Ross (SM)(TM)(R)(C)
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine and methadone
Date: March 23, 2002 at 12:35:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi, stupid question maybe. Ive read whats online and understand a lot of it I hope 😉
You posted that Dr. Mash now has a patent on noribogaine, someone named Glick has a patent on mc18. noribogaine is the metabolite of ibogaine while mc18 is a synthetic? Which does not actually come from ibogaine.
I would guess both of them are hoping that either one of these things will work against addiction without the hallucinations part of ibogaine? But nobody knows that yey for sure. Am I right so far?
What is it that this thing that was posted actually says. I’m a little lost, they’re mixing mc18 with that stuff that’s in nyquil? dextromethorphen or whatever? Why?
If I said anything wrong please tell me.
Thanks!
Carla B
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Eur J Pharmacol 2002 Mar 1;438(1-2):99-105
Antagonism of alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors as a strategy to reduce opioid
and stimulant self-administration.
Glick SD, Maisonneuve IM, Kitchen BA, Fleck MW.
Center for Neuropharmacology and Neuroscience, Albany Medical College
(MC-136), 47 New Scotland Avenue, 12208, Albany, NY, USA
The iboga alkaloid ibogaine and the novel iboga alkaloid congener
18-methoxycoronaridine are putative anti-addictive agents. Using patch-clamp
methodology, the actions of ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine at various
neurotransmitter receptor ion-channel subtypes were determined. Both ibogaine
and 18-methoxycoronaridine were antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic
receptors and both agents were more potent at this site than at alpha4beta2
nicotinic receptors or at NMDA or 5-HT(3) receptors; 18-methoxycoronaridine
was more selective in this regard than ibogaine. In studies of morphine and
methamphetamine self-administration, the effects of low dose combinations of
18-methoxycoronaridine with mecamylamine or dextromethorphan and of
mecamylamine with dextromethorphan were assessed. Mecamylamine and
dextromethorphan have also been shown to be antagonists at alpha3beta4
nicotinic receptors. All three drug combinations decreased both morphine and
methamphetamine self-administration at doses that were ineffective if
administered alone. The data are consistent with the hypothesis that
antagonism at alpha3beta4 receptors is a potential mechanism to modulate drug
seeking behavior. 18-Methoxycoronaridine apparently has greater selectivity
for this site than other agents and may be the first of a new class of
synthetic agents acting via this novel mechanism to produce a broad spectrum
of anti-addictive activity.
***************************************************************************
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine and methadone
Date: March 22, 2002 at 7:35:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Eur J Pharmacol 2002 Mar 1;438(1-2):99-105
Antagonism of alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors as a strategy to reduce opioid
and stimulant self-administration.
Glick SD, Maisonneuve IM, Kitchen BA, Fleck MW.
Center for Neuropharmacology and Neuroscience, Albany Medical College
(MC-136), 47 New Scotland Avenue, 12208, Albany, NY, USA
The iboga alkaloid ibogaine and the novel iboga alkaloid congener
18-methoxycoronaridine are putative anti-addictive agents. Using patch-clamp
methodology, the actions of ibogaine and 18-methoxycoronaridine at various
neurotransmitter receptor ion-channel subtypes were determined. Both ibogaine
and 18-methoxycoronaridine were antagonists at alpha3beta4 nicotinic
receptors and both agents were more potent at this site than at alpha4beta2
nicotinic receptors or at NMDA or 5-HT(3) receptors; 18-methoxycoronaridine
was more selective in this regard than ibogaine. In studies of morphine and
methamphetamine self-administration, the effects of low dose combinations of
18-methoxycoronaridine with mecamylamine or dextromethorphan and of
mecamylamine with dextromethorphan were assessed. Mecamylamine and
dextromethorphan have also been shown to be antagonists at alpha3beta4
nicotinic receptors. All three drug combinations decreased both morphine and
methamphetamine self-administration at doses that were ineffective if
administered alone. The data are consistent with the hypothesis that
antagonism at alpha3beta4 receptors is a potential mechanism to modulate drug
seeking behavior. 18-Methoxycoronaridine apparently has greater selectivity
for this site than other agents and may be the first of a new class of
synthetic agents acting via this novel mechanism to produce a broad spectrum
of anti-addictive activity.
***************************************************************************
There is an interesting citation also indicating alpha3beta4 nicotinic
receptor.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther 2001 Oct;299(1):366-71
Blockade of rat alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptor function by methadone, its
metabolites, and structural analogs.
Xiao Y, Smith RD, Caruso FS, Kellar KJ.
Department of Pharmacology, Georgetown University School of Medicine,
Washington, DC 20007, USA.
The opioid agonist properties of (+/-)-methadone are ascribed almost entirely
to the (-)-methadone enantiomer. To extend our knowledge of the
pharmacological actions of methadone at ligand-gated ion channels, we
investigated the effects of the two enantiomers of methadone and its
metabolites R-(+)-2-ethyl-1,5-dimethyl-3,3-diphenylpyrrolinium perchlorate
(EDDP) and R-(+)-2-ethyl-5-methyl-3,3-diphenyl-1-pyrroline hydrochloride
(EMDP), as well as structural analogs of methadone, including
(-)-alpha-acetylmethadol hydrochloride (LAAM) and (+)-alpha-propoxyphene, on
rat alpha3beta4 neuronal nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs) stably
expressed in a human embryonic kidney 293 cell line, designated
KXalpha3beta4R2. (+/-)-methadone inhibited nicotine-stimulated 86Rb+ efflux
from the cells in a concentration-dependent manner with an IC50 value of 1.9
+/- 0.2 microM, indicating that it is a potent nAChR antagonist. The (-)- and
(+)-enantiomers of methadone have similar inhibitory potencies on
nicotine-stimulated 86Rb+ efflux, with IC50 values of approximately 2 microM.
EDDP, the major metabolite of methadone, is even more potent, with an IC50
value of approximately 0.5 microM, making it one of the most potent nicotinic
receptor blockers reported. In the presence of (+/-)-methadone, EDDP, or
LAAM, the maximum nicotine-stimulated 86Rb+ efflux was markedly decreased,
but the EC50 value for nicotine stimulation was altered only slightly, if at
all, indicating that these compounds block alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptor
function by a noncompetitive mechanism. Consistent with a noncompetitive
mechanism, (+/-)-methadone, its metabolites, and structural analogs have very
low affinity for nicotinic receptor agonist binding sites in membrane
homogenates from KXalpha3beta4R2 cells. We conclude that both enantiomers of
methadone and its metabolites as well as LAAM and (+)-alpha-propoxyphene are
potent noncompetitive antagonists of alpha3beta4 nAChRs.
PMID: 11561100 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 22, 2002 at 4:00:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 06:35:25PM +0000], [sabrina valez] wrote:
| >On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Carla Barnes wrote:
| >
| >> The rest of the manual is great, the after care part is more
| >> confusing then helpful.
| >
| >Hi Carla –
| >
| >You might want to check out www.healthrecoverycenter.com
| >
| >Mary
| >
| Thanks that’s a really interesting site I’ve never seen it before.
|
| And yes, Patrick and Dave wake up and write something. I know its a cliche
| but its true, nobody listens to drug addiction ‘experts’ unless they’ve
| been drug addicts, because what do they know.
|
| Both of you could easily say something helpful from just what you have
| already posted here. Nick did it! Come on, I asked this in December, it’s 4
| months later and Nick finally did it, you can do it.
|
| You could also answer your email once in a while patrick
Hullo, sorry, I’m busy, answering my email in a timely manner is not part
of my job, it’s scrolling off into the vent horizon at the moment, I will
read it all by the weekend and catch up.
With regards to addiction; yeah, sure, why not. But it’s like, what… I
don’t have a religion for you to join (yet), haven’t started a cult (yet),
don’t own an aftercare facility (yet); therefore my advice in the iterim
is: if you don’t wanna shoot dope — don’t insert syringes into your
veins. If ya wanna detox, that ibogaine thing is pretty groovy. If you
want great advice, well . . . <shrug> take whatcha find useful, and toss
the rest out <insert emoticon>.
Dave sez’ “Yo, surfin’ rox dood! It’s highly spiritual n shit!”
woo hoo
Patrick
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] one on one with post treatment therapy people and others
Date: March 22, 2002 at 3:26:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear list,
There is a list called Addict-L theoretically made up of addiction treatment
professionals and others. If you wish one on one discussion re post ibogaine
or any other therapy join that list.
For information on addict-L
http://www.lsoft.com/SCRIPTS/WL.EXE?SL1=ADDICT-L&H=LISTSERV.KENT.EDU
Howard
PS That does not mean to leave this list 😉
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] addiction treatment therapy
Date: March 22, 2002 at 3:19:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/22/02 1:35:31 PM, svalez@hotmail.com writes:
You might want to check out www.healthrecoverycenter.com
Mary
Thanks that’s a really interesting site I’ve never seen it before.
Google.com is a pretty good search engine. Any search under addiction
treatment and addiction treatment therapy or addiction therapy will turn up
interesting hits.
Howard
From: “sabrina valez” <svalez@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 22, 2002 at 1:35:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: *selah* <soma@dorsai.org>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:48:11 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Carla Barnes wrote:
> The rest of the manual is great, the after care part is more
> confusing then helpful.
Hi Carla –
You might want to check out www.healthrecoverycenter.com
Mary
Thanks that’s a really interesting site I’ve never seen it before.
And yes, Patrick and Dave wake up and write something. I know its a cliche but its true, nobody listens to drug addiction ‘experts’ unless they’ve been drug addicts, because what do they know.
Both of you could easily say something helpful from just what you have already posted here. Nick did it! Come on, I asked this in December, it’s 4 months later and Nick finally did it, you can do it.
You could also answer your email once in a while patrick
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 22, 2002 at 11:46:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
We’re sorry, that’s not good enough. Mr. kroupa, Mr. hunter, we want 1,000 words from the freakshow by this monday or both of you will receive 20 days detention. Coherent words. .:vector:. — HSLotsof@aol.com — But, don’t be too hard on Patrick. There are a world full of experts who have all kinds of aftercare theories and write very significant books and it makes little difference in the scheme of things.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 10:20:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Carrie,
Thanks for your response. Right now I’m a bit too close to the revised
manual to make changes but, I am filing your email for a reminder to the next
revision…probably about three or more months.
The reason the aftercare section is so diverse and possibly confusing is that
it doesn’t apply to everyone and no one really agrees except to say that
there should be some aftercare. And, there are some people who would have no
interest in that.
But, don’t be too hard on Patrick. There are a world full of experts who
have all kinds of aftercare theories and write very significant books and it
makes little difference in the scheme of things.
It is eventually the drug user in post ibo or anything else therapy who has
to sort the matter out. And, just as there is a world full of people, there
is a world full of different answers.
Howard
In a message dated 3/21/02 10:06:10 PM, carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:
Neat manual.
A few comments from someone who isn’t exactly a ibogaine expert but only
what I’m reading and looking at.
I would make it boldface or really clear that there’s a big difference
between all the dose suggestions you’re making and what the difference
is between ibogaine hcl and the indra? extract. If my understanding is
right and the hcl is much stronger, then someone who casually reads this
and applies the suggestions for the extract after they buy hcl somewhere
is going to have a serious problem!
I know its in there but make it more obvious that the hcl and extract are
different things!
I don’t think it’s possible to give a aftercare section which applies to
everyone. It might be a good idea to list off some possible choices and
alternatives which worked for people. I think maybe listing them might
be a good idea, the different opinions from contributing writers _are_
confusing right now in the way they’re presented.
Patrick get up off your ass and write something about recovery 🙂 Yes
you’re funny and charming and cute, make the effort to stop being a smartass
for a few paragraphs and say something real.
From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 10:05:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Neat manual.
A few comments from someone who isn’t exactly a ibogaine expert but only what I’m reading and looking at.
I would make it boldface or really clear that there’s a big difference between all the dose suggestions you’re making and what the difference is between ibogaine hcl and the indra? extract. If my understanding is right and the hcl is much stronger, then someone who casually reads this and applies the suggestions for the extract after they buy hcl somewhere is going to have a serious problem!
I know its in there but make it more obvious that the hcl and extract are different things!
I don’t think it’s possible to give a aftercare section which applies to everyone. It might be a good idea to list off some possible choices and alternatives which worked for people. I think maybe listing them might be a good idea, the different opinions from contributing writers _are_ confusing right now in the way they’re presented.
Patrick get up off your ass and write something about recovery 🙂 Yes you’re funny and charming and cute, make the effort to stop being a smartass for a few paragraphs and say something real.
-carrie
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] FWD from DrugText
Date: March 21, 2002 at 7:57:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/21/02 7:43:49 PM, ucj@vcn.bc.ca writes:
<< pls fwd to ibogaine and assoc. lists if appropriate and convenient,
TIA!
———- Forwarded message ———-
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:29:14 +0000
From: Peter Webster <vignes@monaco.mc>
Reply-To: cmap@mapinc.org
To: drugnews@yahoogroups.com, drugnews@psychedelic-library.org
Subject: CMAP: More New Drugtext Files Available
From: “mario lap” <mario@lap.nl
To: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc
Subject: drugtext update 19.03.2002
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 01:21:20 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
CAUSES OF DEATH AMONG INSTITUTIONALIZED NARCOTIC ADDICTS
Joseph D. Sapira, John C. Ball, and Harry Penn
http://www.drugtext.org/books/epidemiology/chapter15.htm
DEATH DUE TO WITHDRAWAL FROM NARCOTICS
Frederick B. Glaser and John C. Ball
http://www.drugtext.org/books/epidemiology/chapter16.htm
SUICIDE AMONG HOSPITALIZED OPIATE ADDICTS
Carl D. Chambers and John C. Ball
http://www.drugtext.org/books/epidemiology/chapter17.htm
ABSENCE OF MAJOR MEDICAL COMPLICATIONS AMONG CHRONIC OPIATE ADDICTS
John C. Ball and John Chapman Urbaitis
http://www.drugtext.org/books/epidemiology/chapter18.htm
CONCLUSION
John C. Ball and Carl D. Chambers
http://www.drugtext.org/books/epidemiology/chapter19.htm
http://www.drugtext.org/
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 7:41:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/21/02 4:25:44 PM, carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:
<< I’m not sure if that’s discussion or just a mess or just a early revision
and you’re trying to lead to some kind of more consistent advice.
The rest of the manual is great, the after care part is more confusing then
helpful. >>
Hi Carla,
Yes it is a discussion rather than a conclusion and you are right the after
care part is confusing but, not alone to ibogaine. The confusion is sort of
systemic to addiction treatment. The reality is, whatever works! There is
no one answer. Take care
Howard
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
Date: March 21, 2002 at 10:30:53 PM EST
To: GroveDS@aol.com
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, actupny@panix.com, “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Dana,
The email you posted to Allan and others was not mine. Some words of mine were used in it, but what you read was the handiwork of others, with my name attached without my awareness or consent. James Wentzy told me that he had taken responsibility for doing this and had told you. If he has not then I am sorry he didn’t. I suggest that you take the matter up with him. But I can’t apologize for a denunciation I did not make. The only time that I denounced you was in 1994, quite openly in front of everyone at ACT UP.
I don’t care what you do now. The damage is done. De-credentialing us while we were in negotiations with NIDA re ibogaine was certainly noticed by NIDA.
The actions I took regarding Cures Not Wars were done specifically in relation to ACT UP, and no other organization. I have no desire to block your efforts in any other venue, and as Allan can attest, I don’t resist your participation in any event sponsored by HRC.
Do you think the finality of that judgement isn’t sufficient, as far as Kevin Frost is concerned, for instance? Come on, why do you think Wentzy re-acted that way, if people weren’t extremely threatened by any legitimation, in any form? To say the ban is limited only to ACT UP is dis-ingenuous.
I support the decriminalization of marijuana, and I think most of your activism on this issue is terrific. Based on the email you sent Allan, our disagreement sounds like it is still the same as it was in 1994.
The brunt of the War on Drugs in America is already borne by people using hard drugs, primarily in communities of color. This statement doesn’t belittle or downplay people like yourself, who have done time on pot charges. Marijuana laws should not be changed at the expense of people who already suffer dire legal consequences for using “hard drugs”. Heroin, speed and crack users are not “more criminal” than pot smokers.
That’s the ONLY way they’re being changed, and once again, you have a double standard here. Why don’t you take the same line vis-a-vis NORML’s re-scheduling petition:
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 02:23:54 -0800
From: “D. Paul Stanford” <stanford@crrh.org>
Subject: Marijuana Rescheduling Hearing – Press Release Text
From: Jon Gettman <Gettman_J@mediasoft.net>
MEDIA ADVISORY
For Tuesday, March 19
Is Marijuana Really As Addictive As Heroin?
A Challenge to Federal Law Regarding Marijuana Scheduling to be
Heard by the District of Columbia Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals on
Tuesday, March 19th, at 9:30 am
Marijuana is considered equal to heroin and worse than cocaine — in terms
of abuse potential and lack of medicinal value, according to current
federal law. It is a “Schedule I” drug, meaning it has a “high potential
for abuse” and “no accepted medical use”. This classification is
preventing many AIDS, cancer and other patients from legal access to
marijuana as medicine.
On Tuesday March 19 this scheduling will be challenged in the D.C. Circuit
of the U.S. Court of Appeals. The Court is being asked to order the Drug
Enforcement Administration (DEA) and the Department of Health and Human
Services (HHS) to consider additional research and testimony in their
scientific and medical evaluation of marijuana. This challenge is being
brought to the Court by Jon Gettman, Ph.D., and High Times magazine, who
argue that marijuana does not have a “high potential for abuse” and does
have accepted medical use for people with certain illnesses.
Specifically, Gettman and High Times are asking the Court to order DEA and
HHS to hold public hearings to consider the testimony of patients, doctors,
and state health officials from jurisdictions that have accepted medical
marijuana use under state law.
According to petition researcher Gettman: “Eight states and the District
of Columbia have recognized the medicinal value of marijuana and almost
every state distinguishes marijuana from narcotics; but the federal
government still classifies this drug as equal in danger to cocaine and
heroin, thus prohibiting potential beneficiaries from access and
obstructing its development.. High Times and I are asking the court to put
an end to this charade.”
Marijuana is presently a schedule I controlled substance. Under the
Controlled Substances Act (CSA) schedule I drugs and substances can only
be used for research under the most restrictive and expensive
conditions. Schedule I drugs must have a high potential for abuse relative
to other drugs regulated by the CSA and must also lack accepted medical use
in the United States. In this case the federal government argues that
marijuana has a similar abuse potential to heroin and cocaine, lacks
accepted medical use, and therefore must be maintained in Schedule I.
With the backing of High Times magazine, Gettman filed the original
petition for this case in July, 1995. The DEA referred the petition to HHS
for a formal scientific and medical evaluation in December, 1997. DEA
formally rejected the petition in March, 2001; the current case subjects
DEA’s decision to judicial review.
Jon Gettman and High Times are represented by the Law Offices of Michael
Kennedy.
More background information is available upon request.
# # #
Background Questions and Answers
What is rescheduling?
The federal law that regulates marijuana is the Controlled Substances Act
(CSA). The CSA has five schedules that provide different levels of
regulatory control. Schedule I drugs, such as heroin, must have a high
potential for abuse relative to all scheduled drugs, lack accepted medical
use in the United States, and be unsafe for use even under medical
supervision. Schedule II drugs, such as cocaine, also have a high
potential for abuse, but differ from schedule I drugs in that schedule II
drugs have an accepted medical use. Schedule III drugs have a lower abuse
potential than schedule I or II drugs, and include Marinol, which contains
a synthetic version of marijuana’s active ingredient. Schedule IV drugs,
such as valium, have a lower abuse potential than schedule III drugs.
What is the argument for rescheduling marijuana?
Petitioners argue that it is widely recognized that marijuana has a lower
abuse potential than heroin and cocaine. Furthermore, when all the factors
specified by law are considered it is also clear that marijuana presently
has an accepted medical use in the United States and is safe for use under
medical supervision. Federal law requires that marijuana be rescheduled
because it does not satisfy the criteria for Schedule I classification.
Who are the petitioners?
Jon Gettman received his Ph.D. in public policy and regional economic
development from George Mason University in 2000. Gettman is a former
National Director of NORML (the National Organization for the Reform of
Marijuana Laws) and is currently a marketing and public policy consultant
interested in the study and economic development of the cannabis
plant. High Times has published numerous articles by Gettman dating back
to 1986, including two articles on “Marijuana and the Brain” in early 1995
describing recent scientific advances and their implications on marijuana’s
scheduling under the federal CSA.
What is the history of this challenge?
When DEA invited Gettman in April 1995 to submit documented evidence
supporting marijuana’s rescheduling, High Times joined with him in a formal
administrative petition that would provide a basis to submit DEA’s
consideration of marijuana’s rescheduling to judicial review. The petition
was accepted for filing by DEA on July 27, 1995. After completing their
own review of the petition DEA referred the petition to HHS on December 17,
1997. The CSA requires HHS to conduct a complete scientific and medical
evaluation according to a wide range of specific criteria. HHS completed
this evaluation on January 17, 2001 and returned the petition to DEA, which
formally rejected the rescheduling request for marijuana on March 20, 2001
without providing the opportunity for a hearing. Gettman and High Times
then filed their appeal with the District of Columbia Circuit of the US
Court of Appeals on April 19, 2001. This case is scheduled for oral
argument on March 19, 2002.
What is the government’s argument?
The government argues that because all use of an illegal drug is drug
abuse, the extensive illegal use of marijuana is sufficient evidence to
establish that it has a high potential for abuse suitable for schedule I
status. Also, because the Food and Drug Administration has not approved
marijuana for medical use DEA argues that the substance does not have an
accepted medical use in the United States. Furthermore, DEA argues that
even if marijuana did not have a high potential for abuse it must be kept
in schedule I because it does not have an accepted medical use. DEA is
also challenging the standing of Gettman and High Times to seek judicial
review in the federal courts.
What is being asked of the Court?
The Court is being asked to instruct DEA and HHS to compile a new
scientific and medical evaluation of marijuana that heeds the plain
language of the statute that requires assessment of marijuana’s relative
abuse potential to other scheduled drugs and the impact of scheduling in
the individuals most affected by it. Gettman and High Times are asking the
Court to order DEA and HHS to hold a public hearing to hear testimony >from
patients, doctors, and state health officials from California, and other
states that have enacted legislation accepting and recognizing medical
marijuana use under state law. (Petitioner’s brief cites legislation >from
Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.)
How would rescheduling affect the medical use of marijuana?
Contrary to popular belief marijuana’s rescheduling would not in of itself
provide a legal basis for the medical use of marijuana under federal
law. However rescheduling would substantially reduce the research and
development costs of getting medical cannabis approved by the Food and Drug
Administration. Furthermore rescheduling would make it easier for state
governments to set up and maintain large scale research projects providing
medical marijuana to individual patients.
When it comes to ibogaine as drug treatment for people with AIDS, you and I talked quite a bit about this in 1994. At that time, most people in the organization were really ignorant about the needs of IDUs with AIDS, and only understood drug treatment advocacy as a prevention issue. Unfortunately, the public mindset is still that you aren’t a person with AIDS until you stop using drugs. A junky is just a junky, not a person, let alone a person with AIDS. Just like in 1994, drug treatment is needed by people living with AIDS, and just like in 1994, ibogaine should be an option.
Finally, I think portraying heroin users as a class of people in need of a “cure” is condescending and junkyphobic. I said so then and I say so now. Yes, I realize that lots of people we BOTH know would desparately like to stop shooting dope. I still don’t think that makes it right to capitulate to standard hostile stereotypes of junkies as “sick”. Heroin, speed and crack users are not “more sick” than pot smokers.
Then why is NIDA trying out Dextro-methorphan with methadone? Ans: just as cannabidiol NMDA antagonism blocks buildup of tolerance to THC, DXM NMDA activity blocks build-up of tolerance tp methadone, enabling the client to make do with less. What you’re missing is the difference between the dose-response curve of a pure agonist and that of a mixed, agonist/antagonist.
No one I know who works with ibogaine considers it a cure in itself. Ibogaine opens a window of plasticity where the person is freed to cure themselves.
Yes, I KNOW people disagree.
In the meantime, framing drug treatment as prevention places emphasis on drug use as a cause of AIDS, rather than a virus as the cause of AIDS. US cities still pass laws against talking about SEXUAL transmission of the virus, let alone syringe transmission, so I think we need to focus a lot less on “unhealthy behavior” and a LOT more on viral transmission. In Britain, they don’t have ibogaine, and they ALSO don’t have an epidemic among IDUs.
The cheapest ibo treatment I know of is available right now in Britain.
Why? Because you can’t get HIV from a sterile syringe, and people can get them, even if they can’t get (or don’t need) drug treatment. Drug treatment, while vital healthcare for millions of people, is not ever going to stop people from re-using infected syringes if they don’t have new ones.
Yeah, and Ilah knew all about clean needles, had one one, and some one with the virus used it on the sly when she wasn’t looking. I support clean needles, but taking a vacation from injecting is more foolproof.
I am not opposed to your presenting on ibogaine at our conference in Seattle, you can even talk about it as the answer to HIV prevention if you want. As Allan mentioned, the conference in San Francisco on March 19 was planned by others. It’s a conference intended to highlight African American leadership in harm reduction in the Bay Area. It would not have been appropriate for me to be involved in it’s planning, or for you to present at it.
If ibogaine hadn’t been sidelined by your faction, some one in that local leadership would be presenting on it. I really doubt anyone is.
As for NORML using our space, I wasn’t involved in that, although I don’t oppose it.
I wish I were as influential as you say.
Sincerely,
Donald Grove
ps. I don’t know any of the other people you sent your email to, so I only cc’d this reply to Allan, Andria and James. Hi Andria!
What I’m upset about is that no forward motion is possible because ACT UP infiltrators are sabotaging the medical marijuana cause, to wit:
However, there are members in ACT UP that would advise The
Floor
> >to avoid working with you until it has developed its own agenda for
medical
> >marijuana access, it’s statement of principles on that issue, and it’s
> >boundaries around that issue.
And at that point the boundaries will exclude working with Cures not Wars and ANYONE who supports the Dutch Model, on account of supposed “hostility to heroin and cocaine users.”
And that’s where we are now. No progress possible.
Dana/cnw
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 6:18:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
At 22:39 21.3.2002, you wrote:
the after care part is more confusing then helpful.
The first paragraph stresses:
There is no clarity that any form of adjunct therapy administered
during the post ibogaine period following acute ibogaine effects is
more efficacious than any other form of adjunct therapy in prolonging
periods of abstinence and freedom from drug craving. This is also in
keeping with the findings in chemical dependence treatment of non-
ibogaine patients. …
To which might be added, “therefore this section is presented as a
grab-bag for each person to consider and find what might be of value
to them.”
Bill Ross
I’d rather say that anything is possible when Ibogaine is involved…
Marko
From: *selah* <soma@dorsai.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 5:48:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Carla Barnes wrote:
The rest of the manual is great, the after care part is more
confusing then helpful.
Hi Carla –
You might want to check out www.healthrecoverycenter.com
Mary
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 4:39:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
the after care part is more confusing then helpful.
The first paragraph stresses:
There is no clarity that any form of adjunct therapy administered
during the post ibogaine period following acute ibogaine effects is
more efficacious than any other form of adjunct therapy in prolonging
periods of abstinence and freedom from drug craving. This is also in
keeping with the findings in chemical dependence treatment of non-
ibogaine patients. …
To which might be added, “therefore this section is presented as a
grab-bag for each person to consider and find what might be of value
to them.”
Bill Ross
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 4:24:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I wanted to say first that I thank everyone who took so much time to reply to me with their different perspectives. You’re a very interesting group of people. Different to say the least 😉
I would like to read this listing, the ibogaine list but for some reason because I posted here someone is starting to subscribe me to some enron conspiracy mailing list? I don’t want to read that please.
My last comment is that this looks like a great introductory manual that collects together a lot of ibogaine information into one place except the post ibogaine treatment part, which really says nothing except most people should do something afterwards and then you have quotes from people most of which all contradict each other.
I’m not sure if that’s discussion or just a mess or just a early revision and you’re trying to lead to some kind of more consistent advice.
The rest of the manual is great, the after care part is more confusing then helpful.
Carla B
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
The first revision of the ibogaine manual is now completed. Four new authors
add their opinions and expertise to this edition providing new perspectives
and information.
The manual is available at either of the ibogaine dossier mirrors:
http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html
or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies – coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŪ
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 3:11:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Congrats to Howard and all the contributors – the multiple points
of view that are quoted work together very well.
Bill Ross
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Manual – First Revision
Date: March 21, 2002 at 10:51:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The first revision of the ibogaine manual is now completed. Four new authors
add their opinions and expertise to this edition providing new perspectives
and information.
The manual is available at either of the ibogaine dossier mirrors:
http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html
or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html
Opinions of the authors are sometimes in agreement, often diverse,
The Table of contents follow:
Preface
Treatment
Intake and Safety Issues
Dose and Effect
Opioid Withdrawal
Opioid withdrawal tables
Post Ibogaine Treatment Therapy
Discussion
Invitation to Contributing Authors
Appendices
Selections NIDA Draft Ibogaine Protocol
Related Protocol Bibliography
Additional Document links
Thanks and enjoy.
Howard
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Great idea
Date: March 21, 2002 at 10:45:22 AM EST
To: “‘digital@phantom.com'” <digital@phantom.com>
You’re totally mental!
Love,
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 20 March 2002 22:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Great idea
On [Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:52:59PM -0800], [Pinky White] wrote:
| Don’t mean to interrupt but I need to share my thoughts.
Thank you.
| I’m sure you have a top 100 list of things to do in order to open
| Mindvox, important things like making sure each and every button has 256
| levels of transparency, is fully rendered, ray cast and in 24 bit color
| and nicely displayed. Or maybe having Drew Ross draw 20 more pictures of
| crackwhores.
No, no, no. That’s already finished, and we switched to a more
reality-based plan of only 18 pictures of crackwhores. What’s holding
things up right at this moment are the round windows and spiral
scrollbars.
| In all these details I feel you have overlooked one small thing.
|
| WHY DON’T YOU OPEN THE FUCKING THING ALREADY.
Oh snap! See, I Just Knew we forgot something!
| OPEN IT
This was an excellent focal point for your message, but you’re diluting
its strength by repeating the same concept too many times.
| WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU?
I don’t have the time to respond to this question; the answer would fill a
20 volume boxed set.
| Thank you. You can all return to talking about drugs now.
Appreciate it.
Patrick / http://www.jesusthemonstertruck.com/
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Journalist in Need
Date: March 20, 2002 at 7:49:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 07:44:47PM -0800], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| >| Are you related to Bruce Fancher?
| >
| >Emily was seperated from Bruce at birth, and raised in a series of
| >communes located in a parellel dimension. She’s only ever met Bruce’s 3rd
| >clone; and that was just recently (in celebration of Bruce’s total
| >acceptance of the Dark Side of the Force, at a pro-Bush rally).
| >
| >Bruce is not her fault.
| >
| >Just saying.
| >
| >Patrick
|
| Just wondered if it was a family interest. You know this happens at
| times: look at Aivia.
Yup, exactly =) About as much as you and she have in common, is what
Bruce and Emily share <insert several emoticons>.
Actually, I dunno, I haven’t hung out with Emily too much, ibogaine is
just a topic that prolly arises several thousand times, with relation to,
“hey, all your junkie friends are rising from the dead. What happened? —
Okay, well, see, there’s this psychedelic, I meant to say entheogenic,
THING, that, uh… well, it’s a very long story.”
So, uhm, hey, I mean, you could ask her and stuff, she just asked to speak
with NYC area ibogaine people. You certainly b a NYC ibogaine person.
me
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Journalist in Need
Date: March 20, 2002 at 10:44:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 06:49:44PM -0800], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| >I’m interested in interviewing individuals in the New York City area
| >who’ve taken ibogaine. Please email me if you’d like to share your
| >story.
| >
| >Thanks,
| >
| >Emily Fancher
| >
| Are you related to Bruce Fancher?
Emily was seperated from Bruce at birth, and raised in a series of
communes located in a parellel dimension. She’s only ever met Bruce’s 3rd
clone; and that was just recently (in celebration of Bruce’s total
acceptance of the Dark Side of the Force, at a pro-Bush rally).
Bruce is not her fault.
Just saying.
Patrick
Just wondered if it was a family interest. You know this happens at
times: look at Aivia.
Dana/cnw
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Journalist in Need
Date: March 20, 2002 at 7:21:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 06:49:44PM -0800], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| >I’m interested in interviewing individuals in the New York City area
| >who’ve taken ibogaine. Please email me if you’d like to share your
| >story.
| >
| >Thanks,
| >
| >Emily Fancher
| >
| Are you related to Bruce Fancher?
Emily was seperated from Bruce at birth, and raised in a series of
communes located in a parellel dimension. She’s only ever met Bruce’s 3rd
clone; and that was just recently (in celebration of Bruce’s total
acceptance of the Dark Side of the Force, at a pro-Bush rally).
Bruce is not her fault.
Just saying.
Patrick
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Journalist in Need
Date: March 20, 2002 at 9:49:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m a graduate student at Columbia University Graduate School of
Journalism and I’m writing an article about ibogaine–its long-term
effectiveness, the experience of taking it, and the politics
surrounding it.
I’m interested in interviewing individuals in the New York City area
who’ve taken ibogaine. Please email me if you’d like to share your
story.
Thanks,
Emily Fancher
Are you related to Bruce Fancher?
Dana/cnw
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Great idea
Date: March 20, 2002 at 5:06:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:52:59PM -0800], [Pinky White] wrote:
| Don’t mean to interrupt but I need to share my thoughts.
Thank you.
| I’m sure you have a top 100 list of things to do in order to open
| Mindvox, important things like making sure each and every button has 256
| levels of transparency, is fully rendered, ray cast and in 24 bit color
| and nicely displayed. Or maybe having Drew Ross draw 20 more pictures of
| crackwhores.
No, no, no. That’s already finished, and we switched to a more
reality-based plan of only 18 pictures of crackwhores. What’s holding
things up right at this moment are the round windows and spiral
scrollbars.
| In all these details I feel you have overlooked one small thing.
|
| WHY DON’T YOU OPEN THE FUCKING THING ALREADY.
Oh snap! See, I Just Knew we forgot something!
| OPEN IT
This was an excellent focal point for your message, but you’re diluting
its strength by repeating the same concept too many times.
| WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU?
I don’t have the time to respond to this question; the answer would fill a
20 volume boxed set.
| Thank you. You can all return to talking about drugs now.
Appreciate it.
Patrick / http://www.jesusthemonstertruck.com/
From: Pinky White <uselessaccount22@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Great idea
Date: March 20, 2002 at 3:52:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Don’t mean to interrupt but I need to share my thoughts.
Dear Mindvox people,
Since you do not ever answer email why don’t I dump it into this list, which is the only Mindvox list any of you ever post on.
I’m sure you have a top 100 list of things to do in order to open Mindvox, important things like making sure each and every button has 256 levels of transparency, is fully rendered, ray cast and in 24 bit color and nicely displayed. Or maybe having Drew Ross draw 20 more pictures of crackwhores.
In all these details I feel you have overlooked one small thing.
WHY DON’T YOU OPEN THE FUCKING THING ALREADY.
OPEN IT
WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU?
The stupid wayback machine shows Mindvox on the web and running when the stupid wayback machine started in 1996. What the hell are you doing? All of you are so dysfunctional it amazes me.
$cp -pri /usr/local/bin/mindvox1996 /usr/local/bin/mindvox
YOU’RE DONE. IT RUNS. IT’S THERE.
OPEN IT. DAMMIT.
Thank you. You can all return to talking about drugs now.
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
From: “Emily Fancher” <fancheremily@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Journalist in Need
Date: March 20, 2002 at 12:32:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m a graduate student at Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism and I’m writing an article about ibogaine–its long-term effectiveness, the experience of taking it, and the politics surrounding it.
I’m interested in interviewing individuals in the New York City area who’ve taken ibogaine. Please email me if you’d like to share your story.
Thanks,
Emily Fancher
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 20, 2002 at 6:03:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: sabrina valez <svalez@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
At the risk of having both of you tell me to shut up, which is what both
of
you did in a nice way in December when I suggested it, Patrick, Nick, why
don’t you at least write a very short after ibogaine staying clean and
what
works booklet with maybe Dave Hunter?
You’ve already written almost the whole thing anyway in just the messages
here.
You told me to stuff it, nicely but just the same and made jokes. That’s
you
Patrick and Nick 😉 And yes Patrick everything is always a joke but if
you
read through the jokes you have a profound understanding of addiction and
you should, you’re clean, you know more after ibogaine people then
probably
anyone why don’t you and Nick put something together, I don’t see anything
else out there which takes ibogaine into account.
-sabrina
Hi Sabrina, Good point and thanks for bringing it up again. Have written the
following and stuck it in my Introduction to Ibogaine, online at
www.ibogaine.co.uk/ibogaine6.htm (section on ibogaine treatment). Hope you
approve
all the best
Nick
POST IBOGAINE REHAB AND THERAPY – A single dose or multiple doses, given
over a period, of ibogaine will occasionally be enough to keep someone off
drugs permanently. But for most the truth is that, unless suitable
post-ibogaine work is undertaken, a fairly rapid relapse to old ways is
likely.
It is simply not possible to give guidelines that will be valid for
everyone, for we are all different. However, for many, the addict should
ideally enter rehabilitation as soon as possible after the treatment. In the
writer’s opinion, the best rehab program, and likely the one most suitable
for those who have just taken ibogaine, is the Residential Addiction
Foundation (RAF) program run by the Humaniversity in Egmont-aan-Zee,
Holland, see www.humaniversity.nl for further details.
Other alternatives include any long-term (six months and up) residential
rehab program available locally. Where residential rehab is not desirous, or
not an option, suitable therapy should be seriously considered. Observations
of the ethnic, religious use of the drug and first and second hand
experience indicate to the writer that the most suitable types of therapy
will be body-based and work around catharsis, confrontation and emotional
release. “Talking only” type therapy, such as counselling may be effective
in some cases but usually less so. Encounter therapy is often highly
suitable for recovering addicts, as is primal therapy, bioenergetics, and
indeed anything that sets out to assist the individual contact and release
repressed emotions, frequently the root cause of addiction. More gentle,
integrative work may also be useful. Dance structures such as 5 Rhythms or
Biodanza may be helpful, either as a back-up to deeper work or on their own.
Attention should also be given to pleasure. Long term drug use will have
likely had the effect of causing the addict’s dopamine system to have been
“hard-wired” to associate pleasure with drug use. This is the reason why
many who have beaten addiction in the short term frequently relapse. A brief
period of exposure to drug-using stimuli, especially at a time when a former
addict feels vulnerable, often results in a return to addiction. Everyone
needs pleasure and so the recovering addict must take steps to ensure they
can get enjoyment out of life without using drugs. For the majority this
will mean work on their sex lives. Sexual stimulation, and particularly
orgasm, is the principle means by which the healthy body gains pleasure and
releases tension. Work to increase the former user’s ability to be intimate,
both socially and sexually, is very important. Tantra workshops, touch
therapy, or other intimacy-focussed processes are an excellent idea.
From: “sabrina valez” <svalez@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 19, 2002 at 7:14:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
At the risk of having both of you tell me to shut up, which is what both of you did in a nice way in December when I suggested it, Patrick, Nick, why don’t you at least write a very short after ibogaine staying clean and what works booklet with maybe Dave Hunter?
You’ve already written almost the whole thing anyway in just the messages here.
You told me to stuff it, nicely but just the same and made jokes. That’s you Patrick and Nick 😉 And yes Patrick everything is always a joke but if you read through the jokes you have a profound understanding of addiction and you should, you’re clean, you know more after ibogaine people then probably anyone why don’t you and Nick put something together, I don’t see anything else out there which takes ibogaine into account.
-sabrina
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine in the UK
Date: March 19, 2002 at 7:41:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
on 3/17/02 10:05 AM, fuak at fuak@nirvanet.net wrote:
Just so that people know, treatments are available in the UK countryside.
Just contact me for more info.
Hattie
PS Still looking for interested people to be filmed during their experience
– know its a wierd concept but it is only for a four minute slot, and means
the treamtent will be paid for.
where did you seek treatment in europe? im going to see sara in holland.
suffering pharmacutical addition – but not abuse.
– colton
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 19, 2002 at 2:47:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I MUST HAVE instant gratification or I WILL DIE!
I think it was on the other ibo list that I saw the junkie
serenity prayer: God, give me patience – NOW!!
Bill Ross
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 19, 2002 at 2:40:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 08:50:54AM -0800], [Bill Ross] wrote:
| > I guess the problem with 12 step is that, to help it work, you just have to
| > be bombarded with the concept that “Only 12 step will work for you and if
| > you don’t get with the program it’s because you’re just weak and copping
| > out.” This isn’t because this statement is objectively true. It isn’t. It’s
| > because it’s subjectively what a person who is suitable for 12 step needs to
| > hear.
Completely true. I do not dispute this in any way whatsoever. I suspect
as time passes I’ll simply mellow out, having put some distance between
being harassed by idiots, and being able to step back and find it all
amusing. See, I didn’t “seek out” the groups, hoping for a solution to my
problems; I was dumped in ’em by various third parties, and at the time it
was an alternative to, uhm, more negative places, little rooms with bars
n’ stuff.
Had this not been the case, I wouldn’t get so bent out of shape over it.
I’m not Southern Baptist, but hey, I got no issues with them, “fuck yeah
mahn, Handling Live Snakes! Damnation! Hellfire! THAT is what good
religion is ALL ABOUT! Beats the circus, or even the streets, for
entertainment value.”
| I experienced a 12-step program once where the motto was “take what
| you like, and leave the rest” – apparently it’s not common to every
| 12-step program, or maybe there is regional variation? If the latter,
| hopefully reports such as this won’t put off people from trying a
| wonderfully inexpensive means of support. On the other hand,
| as suggested dogma may be a useful replacement for addiction.
Immediately post-detox, the groups provide a positive sort of
brainwashing, for a particular niche of people who appear to thrive on
that, and need to get beaten over the head with a bible, and indoctrinated
into some simplified belief system, which does not incorporate drugs.
Additionally, for roughly, let’s say 6-10 months out, after stepping off
of any serious, long-term addiction, you’re gonna FEEL LIKE SHIT. No
matter how much noribogaine you got on board, or how nice your life is,
your dopamine d1, d2’s are in the process of repopulating themselves, and
well, everything’s sorta a mess — it’ll take some time for your
neurochemistry to hit homeostasis again.
Subjecting “normal” people around you to a constant barrage of how
miserable you are, will shortly fill all of them with the urge to strangle
you. “uhm, I wasn’t all that happy to begin with. Would you please shut
up and go away, you’re harshing up my headspace and making me share your
misery. Just like, uh, keep all that away from me.” In short, it’s a
group-whine session. “Hello, my life sucks and I’m miserable.” “Gosh,
you are? ME TOO! What’re the odds!?!!?!? Let’s be miserable together!
Say, you’re kinda hot, maybe we could FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO which
releases endorphins, besides drugs!”
After this space of time, which again, I wouldn’t say really lasts past 12
months for ANYBODY. If you’ve held it together, you’re pretty much good
to go. Most of the relatively sane people I know who continue going to
the groups after that point, are doing it mostly for social purposes.
“Okay, I’m sober now. I don’t know anyone who’s sober… It’s not like
going to a bar is gonna make me relapse. But ya know… It’s really not
that exciting hanging around with a bunch of drunk or stoned people, when
I’m not. It loses its charm real fast… So what else am I gonna do? I
mean, what is it people even do when they’re not doing drugs?”
Oddly enough, some of the most hardcore 12-steppy people who spent like a
year and a half running around attempting to SAVE ME, have moved onwards
to more interesting addictions.
So, still going to meetings?
“Nah, I don’t do that anymore. I have COMPUTER!”
What kind is it?
“I dunno. It’s COMPUTER! It has…. GAMES!!!!!”
Oh…
“Do you play games?”
Uhm… No… I try to stay away from video games for the same reason I
don’t keep a carton of dilaudid in my house, just in case… Either one
is liable to turn into a Black Hole which sucks years of my life down the
drain.
“Huh? COMPUTER is GOOD! It has… G A M E S! It provides, INSTANT
GRATIFICATION! I MUST HAVE instant gratification or I WILL DIE!
Although, I am starting to develop some PROBLEMS. My girlfriend… She
always wants something, like to talk? What the hell is that all about.
Also, having a job is interfering with time I could be spending with
COMPUTER. I am thinking perhaps I will dump girlfriend, live off trust
fund, and spend 100% of my time with COMPUTER! It MAKES ME HAPPY! Excuse
me, I must go now, I just realized I am wasting valuable time talking with
you, when I could be with COMPUTER instead!”
Okay then…
Addiction is just energy. Ride the lightning.
Apply intellect, reinforce with willpower, and direct it where you want
it, instead of always having it just take you for a ride. Although, it’s
important to be CAREFUL or SOMETHING TERRIBLE might happen; you could, for
instance, turn into a sucessful bid’ness person, an Activist, or even
attain Enlightenment.
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine detox
Date: March 19, 2002 at 2:11:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 03:44:11PM +0100], [Ustanova Iboga] wrote:
| We don’t have waiting lists in Slovenia, but we don’t have accredited
| hospital either… We are using 20 mg/kg for initiation to Sacrament of
| Transition, a state-approved religion ;-))
Yo, Marko. I’d like to join. I’m deeply spiritual n’ shit, and have this
need to be in church at least twice a month. I really dig your sacrament;
I meant to say, outlook on life and dogma.
Patrick
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 19, 2002 at 12:59:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Bill,
I think what most of us like to do is define our own dogma, find one that is
comfortable for us. For some people, however, dogma appears to have a
requirement of being imposed upon them. This of course is not out of keeping
with my first statement above.
Howard
In a message dated 3/19/02 11:51:21 AM, ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU writes:
<< I experienced a 12-step program once where the motto was “take what
you like, and leave the rest” – apparently it’s not common to every
12-step program, or maybe there is regional variation? If the latter,
hopefully reports such as this won’t put off people from trying a
wonderfully inexpensive means of support. On the other hand,
as suggested dogma may be a useful replacement for addiction.
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 19, 2002 at 11:50:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I guess the problem with 12 step is that, to help it work, you just have to
be bombarded with the concept that “Only 12 step will work for you and if
you don’t get with the program it’s because you’re just weak and copping
out.” This isn’t because this statement is objectively true. It isn’t. It’s
because it’s subjectively what a person who is suitable for 12 step needs to
hear.
I experienced a 12-step program once where the motto was “take what
you like, and leave the rest” – apparently it’s not common to every
12-step program, or maybe there is regional variation? If the latter,
hopefully reports such as this won’t put off people from trying a
wonderfully inexpensive means of support. On the other hand,
as suggested dogma may be a useful replacement for addiction.
Bill Ross
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] review
Date: March 19, 2002 at 7:03:11 PM EST
To: <HSL123@aol.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Howard, from your piece at
http://www.geocities.com/bwitiroots/manual.html, comments as requested –
” The third fatality of record occurred in 2000, in the UK. The patient was
a 38 year old male who was administered a total of 5 or 6 grams of a 15%
total iboga alkaloid extract over a period of six hours. The patient
appeared fully recovered, had eaten breakfast, gone to the toilet and
suddenly died approximately 38 hours after the administration of the plant
extract. The patient had hepatitis C but, exact data on the state of the
disease is not available. The subject had been using heroin for 15 years.
The most troubling issue relating to this fatality is that it occurred after
the apparent recovery of the subject and quite suddenly. The extract has
been widely used and there appears to be no greater fatality-related issues
associated to it than to purified ibogaine. ”
My understanding is, and this should be checked, that the patient died
through choking on his vomit whilst using the bathroom unattended. The
treatment had been marked by excessive vomitting. If so, and I believe it
is, to my mind this empasizes the importance of monitoring patients
absolutely constantly and being familiar with basic resuscitation procedure.
With regard to the question of suitable post-ibogaine therapy, my opinion,
from personal experience and reading Bwiti literature, is that
bio-energetics or other body-based psychotherapies are most useful. The
Bwiti dance constantly on iboga in the regular group sessions at the temple
(not during the high dose “initiatory” session, you can’t move as I’m sure
you’re aware!) and I’m sure this is for a reason.
My personal opinion, based on my experience of doing ibogaine, doing quite a
bit of therapy afterward, and observing others who’ve done ibo with or
without therapy afterward, is that there IS sometimes a real problem with
integrating the ibogaine experience properly and not simply at an ego-level.
The tendency towards developing a “need” for alternative belief systems to
avoid bodily integration of the experience is, imo, particularly marked in
ibogaine users. (ie the individual NEEDS to believe something is true as
opposed to being able to simply take or leave an idea)
Therefore body-based and emotional release therapies like primal,
bio-energetics and encounter are probably highly synergistic with the
ibogaine experience, in my opinion. My personal recommendation would be
Humaniversity therapy, available at the Humaniversity up on the Dutch coast
(www.humaniversity.nl), and available to addicts as the Residential
Addiction Foundation Program (RAF Program) – 3-6 months or longer @ around
US$2k per month fully incl.
Hope this is of use, cc’ing it to the new ibolist thing in case anyone there
is interested.
all the best
Nick www.ibogaine.co.uk
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine detox
Date: March 19, 2002 at 6:35:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Sascha Goldman <sgoldman@email.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 5:07 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine detox
Thanks for replying to me. I did not mean to say what I said exactly the
way I did. it was not a judgement against any of you. Since I don’t know any
of you personally why don’t I talk about myself instead.
I am a ‘conservative’ person who has a good job, a family and a great deal
to lose. I do not like psychedelic drugs, my few experiences with LSD in
high school disturbed and frightened me. I have tried to taper from
methodone to no avail. I have read about ultra rapid detox and heard few
positive outcomes. I am very interested in ibogaine and it’s apparent
ability to detox or ‘reset’ addiction.
I have read about noribogaine and mc-18 but see nothing being done with
either one what is in any way accessible to someone who wants to use them to
detox. They don’t look to exist or be available to anyone except lab animals
at this time, or if they are then it is not being admitted. I have spoken
with Healing Visions and will likely try ibogaine there, but the waiting
list is a little off putting and ibogaine itself is still something that
makes me very nervous.
If anyone knows of ibogaine treatment being given in an accredited
hospital and they could email me in private or on the list I would
appreciate it. if it is available without a waiting list that is 3 or 4
months long. Money is not the issue I have much more to lose then money,
which at this stage I can still afford.
Thank you for your attention and time
Hi Sascha,
Ibogaine’s dream-creating effect is unfortunately an integral component in
its effectiveness as an addiction interrupter. And the non-dream-creating
versions aren’t yet available, legally or otherwise, as far as I’m aware.
The things to remember here are:
– although it is a tryptamine, the ibogaine molecule is importantly
different from other tryps like psilocin, dmt and lsd. You don’t usually get
the “unitive” experiences common to these drugs. Things are more personal
and ego-centered. Frequently, it’s just similar to having regular nightly
dreams. There’s no possibility you’re going to turn on, tune in, whatever
and suffer a compulsion to grow an afro and wear particular grim shirts.
Unless of course this is secretly what you truly wish to do, in which case
you’ll be ok with it.
– the dreamy part of the experience is beneficial, although it might not
always feel like it at the time, or even later. The drug is intrinsically
benign and simply attempts to bring repressed material to light in a format
that the person can safely handle. Some people see scenes from their
childhood pretty much as it happened, like watching a movie. Others, with
deeper issues, only get symbols. Abused kids see flowers being crushed, this
kind of thing. Ibogaine visions lend themselves well to the techniques of
dream analysis derived from mainstream Western psychology – Freud, Jung,
etc.
– the act of really focussing on what you do and do not want to get out of
the experience will help. Direct a lot of attention to the issue you want to
deal with and the drug will likely operate specifically there.
– a lot of opiate users get zero visuals. I’d go 30% + personally, others
might disagree. Aural stuff is more common and feeling stuff too, but I
imagine this is less of an issue for most.
Hope this helps
Nick www.ibogaine.co.uk
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 19, 2002 at 6:17:07 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
On [Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 02:12:24PM -0800], [Carla Barnes] wrote:
| Assuming it gets your clean, how long does it last? No disrespect but
| Patrick does not act like any grateful recovering addict that I have
| ever known, his entire attitude is “go fuck yourself” stated in those
| exact words on numerous occasions in heroin times. With a attitude like
| this I have never known a single former heroin addict who has not
| relapsed, yet you’ve made it nearly three years. I understand you are
| whatever it is that you are, but whatever that is exactly it’s not a
| “typical” drug addict and I’m not sure I understand what you are, what
What’s a “typical” drug addict…? I’m unsure I have ever met such a
person. Inasmuch as gratitude goes, I have a great deal of it towards
Deborah, who was instrumental in helping me help myself; towards ibogaine
for existing; towards Howard for discovering that neat side effect it has,
other than just making you trip out; towards my friends, who are mostly a
collection of total freaks, who are also managing to hold things together,
and provide, uhm, I’m not sure “support system” is accurate, but sumthin’
like consistent reinforcement that what we’re doin’ is possible, ‘cuz I
mean if Dave, Robert, Drew, any number of other total nutcases I have
complete resonance with — can do this; then so can I.
I have hostility and anger towards subnormal, low IQ idiots who attempted
to ram the One True Answer to everything — the 12 steps — down my
throat, while I was extremely weak and falling apart. The feelings I have
towards them, are the same I would have for anyone who attempted to
inflict emotional damages upon me while I’m totally fucked, and brainwash
me into some paradigm of eternal powerlessness. Fuck that noise mahn, I’m
very grateful none of that crap worked out, and simply had no resonance
for me.
As I think I’ve said maybe 50 times, I have no problem with the 12 steps
— they simply amount to, greatly simplified, very old eastern concepts
for dismantling ego, specifically rewritten for drug-dependent individuals
who are acclimated to western culture. Not much new there. Nothing wrong
with that. And quite a few of my friends have at least partial
involvement with all this.
What I have a problem with are people who SELL this shit as the ONLY
ANSWER to Everything; you are either with us, or one of the Unsaved
Sinners, who is Already In a State of Relapse; and it’s like… ya know,
I don’t need this shit, shut the fuck up, sit and spin with your
eternal classification of yourself as “powerless” and “addicted” and go
catch some meetings and share; you’d feel better.
Patrick
I guess the problem with 12 step is that, to help it work, you just have to
be bombarded with the concept that “Only 12 step will work for you and if
you don’t get with the program it’s because you’re just weak and copping
out.” This isn’t because this statement is objectively true. It isn’t. It’s
because it’s subjectively what a person who is suitable for 12 step needs to
hear.
HOWEVER, if the 12 step concept bugs a person a whole lot, then there will
be something for them here. At a deeper level, a feeling of powerlessness or
similar will be trying to come up and be experienced. It’s a bugger for the
ego when this starts to happen, because the underlying feeling struggling to
be experienced will tend to bring the scenario again and again into a
person’s mind, pissing them off no end.
Life’s a bitch sometimes.
Nick
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine detox
Date: March 19, 2002 at 9:44:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
We don’t have waiting lists in Slovenia, but we don’t have accredited hospital either… We are using 20 mg/kg for initiation to Sacrament of Transition, a state-approved religion ;-))
Let me know if you find this interesting!
Marko
At 02:07 19.3.2002, you wrote:
If anyone knows of ibogaine treatment being given in an accredited hospital and they could email me in private or on the list I would appreciate it. if it is available without a waiting list that is 3 or 4 months long. Money is not the issue I have much more to lose then money, which at this stage I can still afford.
Thank you for your attention and time
—
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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine detox
Date: March 19, 2002 at 1:57:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I am a ‘conservative’ person who has a good job, a family and
a great deal to lose. I do not like psychedelic drugs, my few
experiences with LSD in high school disturbed and frightened me.
I have tried to taper from methodone to no avail.
…
I have spoken with Healing Visions and will likely try ibogaine
there, but the waiting list is a little off putting and ibogaine
itself is still something that makes me very nervous.
If anyone knows of ibogaine treatment being given in an accredited
hospital and they could email me in private or on the list I would
appreciate it. if it is available without a waiting list that is 3
or 4 months long. Money is not the issue I have much more to lose
then money, which at this stage I can still afford.
Given your reactions to LSD and trepidatation about ibogaine, I suggest
that in addition to a hospital you look into getting the sort of post-
experience therapy that Healing Visions apparently offers. In particular,
especially since it sounds like you can afford it, I suggest starting
ongoing therapy localy now, and waiting the 3-4 months for a Healing
Visions session with its concomitant therapy on the spot, then returning
to the therapy at home. If you have already been in therapy for some time
(ideally at least 2 sessions a week), then a sooner hospital experience
might be practicable, except allow for the possibility of needing 2 weeks
off work with as many as 10 sessions a week of therapy for that period.
Feel free to contact me offline for more discussion if you like.
Bill Ross
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] noribogaine patent awarded
Date: March 19, 2002 at 12:37:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/19/02 12:01:43 AM, sgoldman@email.com writes:
<< > Go to the US Patent Office web page http://www.uspto.gov/patft/
Search for patent # 6,348,456
What does this mean please?
Is Dr. Mash now testing with noribogaine for detox?
What is means is Mash et al. owns the invention described in the patent.
What she is doing you will have to ask her?
Howard
From: “Sascha Goldman” <sgoldman@email.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] noribogaine patent awarded
Date: March 19, 2002 at 12:01:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:42:56 EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] noribogaine patent awarded
Mash et al. appear to have received the patent for noribogaine.
Go to the US Patent Office web page http://www.uspto.gov/patft/
Search for patent # 6,348,456
What does this mean please?
Is Dr. Mash now testing with noribogaine for detox?
—
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] noribogaine patent awarded
Date: March 18, 2002 at 10:42:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Mash et al. appear to have received the patent for noribogaine.
Go to the US Patent Office web page http://www.uspto.gov/patft/
Search for patent # 6,348,456
From: wentzy <actupny@panix.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] with abject apology Re: Donald Grove’s Response; Kroupa’s comment
Date: March 18, 2002 at 9:41:55 PM EST
To: <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Cc: <lakeg@hotmail.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <contetony@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I had replied to a few people that Dana had email…you few are the ones
left. I don’t have any t-cells to spare for anymore group email regarding
Dana Beal after this. But i _did_ want to confirm my fuckhead complicity
for all this fiasco and apologize once again.
Two months ago I had apologized to Dana Beal; to Donald Grove–who I wrongly
put in the middle of this; and to Gregory, who’d sent the original email. I
have kowtowed plenty and remain miserable over my wrongful actions. THANK
YOU DANA for continuing to make my life miserable–as if living with AIDS
and poverty isn’t miserable enough. As I had explained to Dana Beal
months ago, Donald Grove was NOT responsible for this email…I WAS THE
FUCKHEAD. I had admitted my responsibility AND admitted that I was totally
wrong for my mistakenly-written email reply. (I was fearful of Dana’s
retribution as a medical marijuana’s buyer’s club “provider”…but I was
totally wrong in my actions, ashamed, and I quickly admitted it…and I
happened to have been sick, feverish and more fragile than usual at the time
of my original reply.) AND i didn’t know why “Dana” was writing to ask to
come to ACT UP. (Have I not apologized numerous times and sincerely tried
to make-up for my mistake to you, Gregory?) I had telephoned Dana Beal (and
all parties involved at the time) to take responsibility AND kowtow with
sheepish apologies for MY action, Dana had SEEMED to accept my apology at
the time. (I had groveled at Dana’s feet with abject apology!) This was TWO
MONTHS AGO! For Dana to continually bring my regretful action over and over
again is dastardly, compassionless and conniving. I apologize once again
for MY actions and regret others are brought into this. I apologize to ALL
OF YOU, having to suffer this subject based upon MY mistake and Dana’s
scheming. For anyone to blame me for MY mistakes would be appropriate. For
Dana or anyone to blame ACT UP/NY for my comments would be naive and wrong.
It’s little wonder why Dana Beal was the ONLY person in ACT UP’s history to
have been “eighty-sixed” because of his divisive personality–something only
NOW that I fully comprehend. And I’m afraid I will now have to resign as
an officer from a NYC Medical Marijuana Buyers Club because of Dana’s
harangue…hopefully to stave off harming others in need because of Dana’s
retribution for my mistake. I regret letting my club members down. I
especially regret the harm I’ve done to my respected friends. And I regret
that my actions have caused Dana’s conniving to involve all of you.
With sheepish regrets,
James Wentzy
P.S. Dana Beal: it was NOT proper for you to cc Kroupa’s email comments to
us when he asked you not to send it to the list.
I’m forwarding this because as you all can see, this guy still has
got important details just WRONG (i.e., they don’t have Ibogaine or
an AIDS problem among IDU’s in Britain–both wrong). The statements
regarding the difference between cannabis and hard drugs reveal a
profound ignorance of neuro-chemistry. Also, the reason more wasn’t
done by the ACT UP NIDA working group re NIDA and IDU PWA’s was that
those who denounced me in 1994 never sent any reps to the meetings
with NIDA. We were struggling just to keep the NIDA protocol moving
forward DESPITE the feds refusal to consider treating PWA’s with ibo
in their very first trial for efficacy for treatment of cocaine
dependency. With 5 more people like Donald at those meetings we could
have pushed the issue. But instead we lost use of the ACT UP name,
and within a year NIDA felt they could dump the Ibogaine project with
no major repercussions.
I want to make it clear that the alternative I offered then, as now,
was for ACT UP to come to the May 4th rally to RECRUIT and replenish
their depleted ranks. I mean, 1/6 of our crowd (or more) are gay–
and consequently more sensitive to AIDS concerns. Instead once again
this year ACT UP will shun the event, and HRC also.
So I hope that a few people will take the time to reply to Donald
Grove. I don’t have Deagle’s email. Maybe the letter was 90% his
work. The actual person who edited the letter is at actupny@panix.com
. That’s James Wentzy. Wentzy has some real conflicts of interest on
this one.
Dana/cnw
At 6:01 PM -0500 3/18/02, GroveDS@aol.com wrote:
From: GroveDS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 18:01:13 EST
Subject: Re: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
CC: actupny@panix.com, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk
Status:
Dear Dana,
The email you posted to Allan and others was not mine. Some words
of mine were used in it, but what you read was the handiwork of
others, with my name attached without my awareness or consent.
James Wentzy told me that he had taken responsibility for doing this
and had told you. If he has not then I am sorry he didn’t. I
suggest that you take the matter up with him. But I can’t apologize
for a denunciation I did not make. The only time that I denounced
you was in 1994, quite openly in front of everyone at ACT UP.
The actions I took regarding Cures Not Wars were done specifically
in relation to ACT UP, and no other organization. I have no desire
to block your efforts in any other venue, and as Allan can attest, I
don’t resist your participation in any event sponsored by HRC.
I support the decriminalization of marijuana, and I think most of
your activism on this issue is terrific. Based on the email you
sent Allan, our disagreement sounds like it is still the same as it
was in 1994.
The brunt of the War on Drugs in America is already borne by people
using hard drugs, primarily in communities of color. This statement
doesn’t belittle or downplay people like yourself, who have done
time on pot charges. Marijuana laws should not be changed at the
expense of people who already suffer dire legal consequences for
using “hard drugs”. Heroin, speed and crack users are not “more
criminal” than pot smokers.
When it comes to ibogaine as drug treatment for people with AIDS,
you and I talked quite a bit about this in 1994. At that time, most
people in the organization were really ignorant about the needs of
IDUs with AIDS, and only understood drug treatment advocacy as a
prevention issue. Unfortunately, the public mindset is still that
you aren’t a person with AIDS until you stop using drugs. A junky
is just a junky, not a person, let alone a person with AIDS. Just
like in 1994, drug treatment is needed by people living with AIDS,
and just like in 1994, ibogaine should be an option.
Finally, I think portraying heroin users as a class of people in
need of a “cure” is condescending and junkyphobic. I said so then
and I say so now. Yes, I realize that lots of people we BOTH know
would desparately like to stop shooting dope. I still don’t think
that makes it right to capitulate to standard hostile stereotypes of
junkies as “sick”. Heroin, speed and crack users are not “more
sick” than pot smokers.
Yes, I KNOW people disagree.
In the meantime, framing drug treatment as prevention places
emphasis on drug use as a cause of AIDS, rather than a virus as the
cause of AIDS. US cities still pass laws against talking about
SEXUAL transmission of the virus, let alone syringe transmission, so
I think we need to focus a lot less on “unhealthy behavior” and a
LOT more on viral transmission. In Britain, they don’t have
ibogaine, and they ALSO don’t have an epidemic among IDUs. Why?
Because you can’t get HIV from a sterile syringe, and people can get
them, even if they can’t get (or don’t need) drug treatment. Drug
treatment, while vital healthcare for millions of people, is not
ever going to stop people from re-using infected syringes if they
don’t have new ones.
I am not opposed to your presenting on ibogaine at our conference in
Seattle, you can even talk about it as the answer to HIV prevention
if you want. As Allan mentioned, the conference in San Francisco on
March 19 was planned by others. It’s a conference intended to
highlight African American leadership in harm reduction in the Bay
Area. It would not have been appropriate for me to be involved in
it’s planning, or for you to present at it.
As for NORML using our space, I wasn’t involved in that, although I
don’t oppose it.
I wish I were as influential as you say.
Sincerely,
Donald Grove
ps. I don’t know any of the other people you sent your email to, so
I only cc’d this reply to Allan, Andria and James. Hi Andria!
At 5:56 PM -0500 3/18/02, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
Just like a brief thing to mention. I have no idea who deagle or grove
are, but if Allan is the same dude who started up the LES, then I think
he’s a pretty cool person and does a lotta good.
If I take a conservative estimate, uhm… 8 shots a day on average, times
365, times 8 years, divided by half or so… I’d say roughly 6,000
syringes landed in my veins thanks to Allan. So, uhm, I still have arms,
and a few useable veins, and walked from that whole scenario without Hep,
or HIV, or anything else, at least partially thanks to him, and the whole
harm reduction movement.
I’m sure my experience is not dissimilar to that of many others, thus
Allan has also gained quite a few karmic points.
I really have no idea whut I’m talking about regarding the rest of what’s
up, so I didn’t send this to the list.
Just saying.
Allan is pretty cool people, for what he does accomplish, despite whomever
is working for him/under him/with him, perhaps being fuckheads (which that
dude who wrote ya the letter, appears to be).
Patrick
From: “Sascha Goldman” <sgoldman@email.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine detox
Date: March 18, 2002 at 8:07:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for replying to me. I did not mean to say what I said exactly the way I did. it was not a judgement against any of you. Since I don’t know any of you personally why don’t I talk about myself instead.
I am a ‘conservative’ person who has a good job, a family and a great deal to lose. I do not like psychedelic drugs, my few experiences with LSD in high school disturbed and frightened me. I have tried to taper from methodone to no avail. I have read about ultra rapid detox and heard few positive outcomes. I am very interested in ibogaine and it’s apparent ability to detox or ‘reset’ addiction.
I have read about noribogaine and mc-18 but see nothing being done with either one what is in any way accessible to someone who wants to use them to detox. They don’t look to exist or be available to anyone except lab animals at this time, or if they are then it is not being admitted. I have spoken with Healing Visions and will likely try ibogaine there, but the waiting list is a little off putting and ibogaine itself is still something that makes me very nervous.
If anyone knows of ibogaine treatment being given in an accredited hospital and they could email me in private or on the list I would appreciate it. if it is available without a waiting list that is 3 or 4 months long. Money is not the issue I have much more to lose then money, which at this stage I can still afford.
Thank you for your attention and time
—
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Donald Grove’s Response; Kroupa’s comment
Date: March 18, 2002 at 11:03:26 PM EST
To: “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, actupny@panix.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m forwarding this because as you all can see, this guy still has got important details just WRONG (i.e., they don’t have Ibogaine or an AIDS problem among IDU’s in Britain–both wrong). The statements regarding the difference between cannabis and hard drugs reveal a profound ignorance of neuro-chemistry. Also, the reason more wasn’t done by the ACT UP NIDA working group re NIDA and IDU PWA’s was that those who denounced me in 1994 never sent any reps to the meetings with NIDA. We were struggling just to keep the NIDA protocol moving forward DESPITE the feds refusal to consider treating PWA’s with ibo in their very first trial for efficacy for treatment of cocaine dependency. With 5 more people like Donald at those meetings we could have pushed the issue. But instead we lost use of the ACT UP name, and within a year NIDA felt they could dump the Ibogaine project with no major repercussions.
I want to make it clear that the alternative I offered then, as now, was for ACT UP to come to the May 4th rally to RECRUIT and replenish their depleted ranks. I mean, 1/6 of our crowd (or more) are gay– and consequently more sensitive to AIDS concerns. Instead once again this year ACT UP will shun the event, and HRC also.
So I hope that a few people will take the time to reply to Donald Grove. I don’t have Deagle’s email. Maybe the letter was 90% his work. The actual person who edited the letter is at actupny@panix.com . That’s James Wentzy. Wentzy has some real conflicts of interest on this one.
Dana/cnw
At 6:01 PM -0500 3/18/02, GroveDS@aol.com wrote:
From: GroveDS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 18:01:13 EST
Subject: Re: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
CC: actupny@panix.com, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk
Status:
Dear Dana,
The email you posted to Allan and others was not mine. Some words of mine were used in it, but what you read was the handiwork of others, with my name attached without my awareness or consent. James Wentzy told me that he had taken responsibility for doing this and had told you. If he has not then I am sorry he didn’t. I suggest that you take the matter up with him. But I can’t apologize for a denunciation I did not make. The only time that I denounced you was in 1994, quite openly in front of everyone at ACT UP.
The actions I took regarding Cures Not Wars were done specifically in relation to ACT UP, and no other organization. I have no desire to block your efforts in any other venue, and as Allan can attest, I don’t resist your participation in any event sponsored by HRC.
I support the decriminalization of marijuana, and I think most of your activism on this issue is terrific. Based on the email you sent Allan, our disagreement sounds like it is still the same as it was in 1994.
The brunt of the War on Drugs in America is already borne by people using hard drugs, primarily in communities of color. This statement doesn’t belittle or downplay people like yourself, who have done time on pot charges. Marijuana laws should not be changed at the expense of people who already suffer dire legal consequences for using “hard drugs”. Heroin, speed and crack users are not “more criminal” than pot smokers.
When it comes to ibogaine as drug treatment for people with AIDS, you and I talked quite a bit about this in 1994. At that time, most people in the organization were really ignorant about the needs of IDUs with AIDS, and only understood drug treatment advocacy as a prevention issue. Unfortunately, the public mindset is still that you aren’t a person with AIDS until you stop using drugs. A junky is just a junky, not a person, let alone a person with AIDS. Just like in 1994, drug treatment is needed by people living with AIDS, and just like in 1994, ibogaine should be an option.
Finally, I think portraying heroin users as a class of people in need of a “cure” is condescending and junkyphobic. I said so then and I say so now. Yes, I realize that lots of people we BOTH know would desparately like to stop shooting dope. I still don’t think that makes it right to capitulate to standard hostile stereotypes of junkies as “sick”. Heroin, speed and crack users are not “more sick” than pot smokers.
Yes, I KNOW people disagree.
In the meantime, framing drug treatment as prevention places emphasis on drug use as a cause of AIDS, rather than a virus as the cause of AIDS. US cities still pass laws against talking about SEXUAL transmission of the virus, let alone syringe transmission, so I think we need to focus a lot less on “unhealthy behavior” and a LOT more on viral transmission. In Britain, they don’t have ibogaine, and they ALSO don’t have an epidemic among IDUs. Why? Because you can’t get HIV from a sterile syringe, and people can get them, even if they can’t get (or don’t need) drug treatment. Drug treatment, while vital healthcare for millions of people, is not ever going to stop people >from re-using infected syringes if they don’t have new ones.
I am not opposed to your presenting on ibogaine at our conference in Seattle, you can even talk about it as the answer to HIV prevention if you want. As Allan mentioned, the conference in San Francisco on March 19 was planned by others. It’s a conference intended to highlight African American leadership in harm reduction in the Bay Area. It would not have been appropriate for me to be involved in it’s planning, or for you to present at it.
As for NORML using our space, I wasn’t involved in that, although I don’t oppose it.
I wish I were as influential as you say.
Sincerely,
Donald Grove
ps. I don’t know any of the other people you sent your email to, so I only cc’d this reply to Allan, Andria and James. Hi Andria!
At 5:56 PM -0500 3/18/02, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
Just like a brief thing to mention. I have no idea who deagle or grove
are, but if Allan is the same dude who started up the LES, then I think
he’s a pretty cool person and does a lotta good.
If I take a conservative estimate, uhm… 8 shots a day on average, times
365, times 8 years, divided by half or so… I’d say roughly 6,000
syringes landed in my veins thanks to Allan. So, uhm, I still have arms,
and a few useable veins, and walked from that whole scenario without Hep,
or HIV, or anything else, at least partially thanks to him, and the whole
harm reduction movement.
I’m sure my experience is not dissimilar to that of many others, thus
Allan has also gained quite a few karmic points.
I really have no idea whut I’m talking about regarding the rest of what’s
up, so I didn’t send this to the list.
Just saying.
Allan is pretty cool people, for what he does accomplish, despite whomever
is working for him/under him/with him, perhaps being fuckheads (which that
dude who wrote ya the letter, appears to be).
Patrick
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] same quetions
Date: March 19, 2002 at 2:43:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Carla Barnes
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:02 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] same quetions
Thanks for the replies guys 🙂
But I still have exactly the same questions I asked in the first place.
I’ve now read I think at least half of Mindvox, it’s beautiful, it’s funny, it’s one of the weirdest collisions of drugs and technology and demented people I have ever seen in my life. I like the whole feel of the place. But, back to ibogaine.
Maybe I am wrong, I haven’t seen the videotape of the London ibogaine conference which Patrick said would be available some time this year, but from what I see most of the people promoting ibogaine have never been heroin addicts. Nobody has answered what happens after ibogaine dose 2 or 3, what difference it makes on a neurological level? Patrick has mostly glossed it, but has not yet once answered how someone who is on 200mg of methadone + 2 grams of heroin a day + 12mg xanax (and I am quoting out of Heroin Times the exact sentence) and has been an addict for most of their life, manages to turn everything around and s t a y clean. The closest answer I have is his psychological makeup is different then almost everyone else in the world, or he fell into a swimming pool of LSD afterwards. Note that I am not questioning what you accomplished, I am only completely confused about h o w, yes ibogaine detoxed you and then what? How did you stay clean.
Hi Carla, I’m not an ex heroin addict either, but my opinion about heroin addiction is that you can get long term cleaness if you can cover 3 basic issues:
– the problem of immediate withdrawal – acute negative physical feelings the person undergoing withdrawal naturally would like to disown through a return to use.
– underlying trauma or conditioning – bad stuff that happened in childhood (abuse etc) or repeated blocking of natural desire (sexual expression etc) through conditioning.
– learned behaviour and resultant inadequate pleasure tolerance – once a person has conditioned themselves (or been conditioned) to experience pleasure through drug use for a long period it’s hard to decondition them. They can deal with withdrawal and clear the underlying issues, but they still need pleasure and if the mind has been conditioned by years of drug abuse it’s inevitable they will relapse because everyone needs pleasure.
Ibogaine has some level of effect in each of these areas viz:
– its activity (and the activity of its metabolites) at the opiate receptor sites reduce the symptoms of drug withdrawal massively for most people
– its dream-inducing nature tends to assist the user understand the underlying issues beneath their addiction.
– its effect on the dopamine system temporarily disables the crippling effect of learned behaviour on the individual’s pleasure tolerance. Life, post ibogaine, for a week or so, can become a near orgasmic experience as a person’s natural barriers to enjoying the sheer pleasure of just being alive are temporarily disabled. Whilst this will likely soon evaporate the addict may still be given a taste of the person they could be if they just applied themselves to dealing with their shit.
This is how I would explain ibogaine to someone who wanted to know. The drug can’t get you off drugs, because the nature of addiction is that only the addict can get themselves off drugs, but if this is recognized it certainly can help a great deal.
Which was my last question, also unanswered. What are the results for long term sobriety post ibogaine? 50%, 20%, 5%, Patrick and 5 other people? Who’s left still standing a year, 2 years, 3 years later. Where are all these people who have detoxed with it and what happens to them.
It’s really very, very hard to assess these things. People wander all over the place and there’s no finance in place in our society to even assess ibogaine’s immediate effects, let alone long term results. However, I think most people familiar with the drug would agree that long term sobriety depends on the person. If you just need to “get” one little thing then ibogaine can show you this and you say “aha, that’s why I’ve been a junkie all my life” and it’s over. If the drug shows you that you’re very scared of other people and this is why you use and your attitude is “Hey, I’m not scared of anything” then I think it’s safe to say you’ll be back using pretty soon.
Ibogaine will always try and rip the mask off a person’s face. If they’re not willing to let it go, then they will go straight back to whatever is holding it up.
I don’t mean to be confrontational, I’m only curious. HT said this was the original London conference speakers list, which means the some of the most experienced ibogaine experts in the world are reading this. Not one has replied to me with anything that answers what I asked. I am not asking for published reports, I know there aren’t any or they would appear on medline, any experiences are fine, any opinions, results, anything. Nothing that even comes close to answering what I’ve asked is on a n y of the ibogaine web sites, at least none that Mindvox links and I’m guessing its linking all the major ones.
I don’t think anyone has done much in terms of follow up studies. Pretty much every society that ever existed has believed they knew it all to some degree, and they’ve all been proved wrong. Ours is no different. I don’t think there’s a meaningful level of desire to understand or treat addiction at a government level, and this results in a total lack of meaningful finance for potentially effective treatments.
It’s also important to appreciate that the mind’s desire to create an objective world rises essentially through an innate fear of simply being alive. Life is a subjective experience and what each person gets is a totally unique experience. We move together through instinct but we only desire to collate experience and create objective maps of those experiences through fear. Such is the nature of our existence.
I’m not knocking what you’re asking, just pointing out that objective assessment never healed anyone, the best it can do is alleviate the fear of trying something. And at some point you just have to trust what you feel.
Hope this helps
Nick www.ibogaine.co.uk
Thank you
Carla B
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
From: “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
Date: March 18, 2002 at 5:33:43 PM EST
To: <HSLotsof@aol.com>, <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Cc: <chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk>, <biuro_69@csk.pl>, <epoptica@freeuk.com>, <contetony@hotmail.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard/Dana,
Please take this up with d.grove and R. Deagle. They’re not on this list.
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <dana@cures-not-wars.org>; <clear@harmreduction.org>
Cc: <chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk>; <biuro_69@csk.pl>; <epoptica@freeuk.com>;
<contetony@hotmail.com>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
Dear r.deagle and d.grove,
Your response to Dana is inappropriate. Your failure to recognize the
value
of ibogaine as HIV intervention is not in keeping with good science.
During the period I administrated ibogaine treatments in The Netherlands
and
Panama we accepted HIV positive patients dispite NIDA protocol designs
that
would have rejected such patients.
Nico Adriaans, one of the founders of the Dutch Junkie Bond (Junkies
Union)
and the primary director of Dutch addict self-help administered ibogaine
treatments died of AIDS. He worked until the last three months of his
life
to make ibogaine available.
Your dismissal of ibogaine because of personality disputes with Dana Beal
does not meet the ethical criteria of AIDS activism.
Howard Lotsof
http://www.ibogaine.org
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl
In a message dated 3/18/02 12:54:10 PM, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:
<< >Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:28:56 -0500
Subject: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
From: ACTUPNY <actupny@panix.com>
To: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
X-Priority: 4
Status:
May we join you there?
WHY and for WHAT PURPOSE?
Dana Beal, your most offensive work in ACT UP was the promotion of
Ibogaine
as HIV prevention. In 1994, the majority of new infections were
occurring among drug injectors, creating large numbers of people with
AIDS,
for whom drug treatment can be a life-saving intervention. Despite
repeated
advice to raise this issue, never once did you include drug treatment for
PWAs in your promotion of Ibogaine. And in spite of repeated requests
from
harm reduction supporters within ACT UP, you never ceased to frame the
need
for ibogaine in a way which was very hostile to drug injectors, i.e.,
people
with AIDS.
While you may experience a deep personal sympathy for people living with
AIDS, your actions do not indicate a sincere willingness to understand
the
principles of PWA self-empowerment principles which drive ACT UP New
York.
YOU were essentially barred from bringing issues to the floor of ACT UP,
and
your working group was disbanded. This motion was passed by ACT UP New
York
back in 1994, for explicit reasons having to do with:
1. Your lack of cooperation with other parts of ACT UP
2. The inordinate amount of time which was spent on your issues at each
meeting
3. A consensus was passed by the floor that your agenda was hostile to
virtually all IDUs living with AIDS.
Medical marijuana is a very appropriate issue for the floor of ACT UP, at
all times. However, there are members in ACT UP that would advise The
Floor
to avoid working with you until it has developed its own agenda for
medical
marijuana access, it’s statement of principles on that issue, and it’s
boundaries around that issue.
———-
This reply reads more brutal than you might deserve, and for that, you
have
some of our apologizes. We know you are NOT a bad person and do some
good
work.
for that… regards,
r.deagle
d.grove
edited by webmaster
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
Date: March 18, 2002 at 5:14:51 PM EST
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org, clear@harmreduction.org
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, epoptica@freeuk.com, contetony@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear r.deagle and d.grove,
Your response to Dana is inappropriate. Your failure to recognize the value
of ibogaine as HIV intervention is not in keeping with good science.
During the period I administrated ibogaine treatments in The Netherlands and
Panama we accepted HIV positive patients dispite NIDA protocol designs that
would have rejected such patients.
Nico Adriaans, one of the founders of the Dutch Junkie Bond (Junkies Union)
and the primary director of Dutch addict self-help administered ibogaine
treatments died of AIDS. He worked until the last three months of his life
to make ibogaine available.
Your dismissal of ibogaine because of personality disputes with Dana Beal
does not meet the ethical criteria of AIDS activism.
Howard Lotsof
http://www.ibogaine.org
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl
In a message dated 3/18/02 12:54:10 PM, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:
<< >Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:28:56 -0500
Subject: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
From: ACTUPNY <actupny@panix.com>
To: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
X-Priority: 4
Status:
May we join you there?
WHY and for WHAT PURPOSE?
Dana Beal, your most offensive work in ACT UP was the promotion of Ibogaine
as HIV prevention. In 1994, the majority of new infections were
occurring among drug injectors, creating large numbers of people with AIDS,
for whom drug treatment can be a life-saving intervention. Despite repeated
advice to raise this issue, never once did you include drug treatment for
PWAs in your promotion of Ibogaine. And in spite of repeated requests from
harm reduction supporters within ACT UP, you never ceased to frame the need
for ibogaine in a way which was very hostile to drug injectors, i.e., people
with AIDS.
While you may experience a deep personal sympathy for people living with
AIDS, your actions do not indicate a sincere willingness to understand the
principles of PWA self-empowerment principles which drive ACT UP New York.
YOU were essentially barred from bringing issues to the floor of ACT UP, and
your working group was disbanded. This motion was passed by ACT UP New York
back in 1994, for explicit reasons having to do with:
1. Your lack of cooperation with other parts of ACT UP
2. The inordinate amount of time which was spent on your issues at each
meeting
3. A consensus was passed by the floor that your agenda was hostile to
virtually all IDUs living with AIDS.
Medical marijuana is a very appropriate issue for the floor of ACT UP, at
all times. However, there are members in ACT UP that would advise The Floor
to avoid working with you until it has developed its own agenda for medical
marijuana access, it’s statement of principles on that issue, and it’s
boundaries around that issue.
———-
This reply reads more brutal than you might deserve, and for that, you have
some of our apologizes. We know you are NOT a bad person and do some good
work.
for that… regards,
r.deagle
d.grove
edited by webmaster
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
Date: March 18, 2002 at 7:34:44 PM EST
To: “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Dana,
I will discipline Donald. He likes being disciplined. The Act-Up/Cures Not
Wars drama really doesn’t belong to me or to HRC’s world and you guys will
have to sort it out yourselves. Just for the record, it’s an
African-American event in California and Donald didn’t organize it. I think
he exists somewhere in the Fifth Dimension not the third world.
Allan
An African-American event sans Ibogaine, no doubt.
You can say it’s just a drama, but the terrible lies being propagated
are still taken seriously by the Donald Grove camp. I think the
charge that separating marijuana from hard drugs in the market place
is innately anti-IDU is especially offensive, inasmuch as you
sanction NORML’s message by letting them meet at yr office. What do
we have to do, picket?
This is serious, Alan. Even aside from Ibogaine, Philly ACT UP won’t
work on medical marijuana as long as New York ACT UP and Donald Grove
veto cooperation with Cures not Wars, so patients on the East Coast
can’t make any progress on this med-mar. Attempting to exclude us
from the medical marijuana equation just won’t work.
I suggest you meet with Greg Lake, the person whose innocent inquiry
triggered Grove’s letter.
Dana/cnw
From: “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
Date: March 18, 2002 at 3:45:56 PM EST
To: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Cc: <chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk>, <biuro_69@csk.pl>, “Hattie” <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Dana,
I will discipline Donald. He likes being disciplined. The Act-Up/Cures Not
Wars drama really doesn’t belong to me or to HRC’s world and you guys will
have to sort it out yourselves. Just for the record, it’s an
African-American event in California and Donald didn’t organize it. I think
he exists somewhere in the Fifth Dimension not the third world.
Allan
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>
Cc: <chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk>; <biuro_69@csk.pl>; “Hattie”
<epoptica@freeuk.com>; “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>;
<ibogaine@mindvox.com>; “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt”
<AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:49 PM
Subject: Fwd: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
I finally determined that I had to forward this to your attention
inasmuch as Donald Grove works for you, in a position of particular
authority vis-a-vis Ibogaine, since he is coordinating, I believe, a
third world add-on conference to the AMFAR conf. in S.F. We could not
expect Ibogaine to get a fair reception there, or even a place on the
agenda at your Seattle meeting, if the sentiments expressed below
have any influence in the HRC.
Donald Grove obviously has influence. That is why his signature on
the following pack of distortions and outright calumny is profoundly
disturbing to all sincere people, including hundreds of IDU’s who
worked tirelessly for Ibogaine since the ’94 meeting where ACT UP, by
a 23/21 vote, pulled the plug on Ibogaine research at NIDA and tried
to force Cures not Wars to disband.
That decision was genocidal. Hundreds of thousands have needlessly
contracted the virus because Ibogaine was not pushed through and
approved in ’97 or ’98. This over supposed hostility to IDU’s with
AIDS! The reason we didn’t claim any special benefit of Ibogaine for
people with AIDS was that data showing incompatibility of methadone
and protease did not yet exist–for the simple reason that protease
inhibiters hadn’t yet been released, whereas that benefits of a
treatment that interrupted injection were as clear as the argument
for needle exchange.
What is especially disturbing is that the attack on cures not wars
was based largely on our espousal of market separation of cannabis
and hard drugs– a standard tenet of the Dutch Model and harm
reductionists everywhere. This was made out to be hostile to IDU’s
and in excess of the need for medical marijuana, when it is obviously
better never to have people start injection drugs to begin with than
to treat them once they’re addicted! Letting NORML, which has the
same, identical position, meet in your offices when Cures not Wars is
excoriated and banned from the movement and various conferences is
the height of hypocrisy.
The authors’ true purpose, which is to sideline medical marijuana in
NYC forever, is evident in the fact that they rule out working with
anyone who’s actually working on it.
BTW, I didn’t send ANY emails to ACT UP before I got this. Some one
else used my computer without realizing my name would come up on the
header. But it tells you a lot, and I think it really behooves you,
as Donald Grove’s superior, to call him on the carpet for the lies
and misrepresentations here below. NO ONE lobbying for medical
marijuana in New York will go to an ACT UP meeting after reading this.
Dana/cny
Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:28:56 -0500
Subject: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
From: ACTUPNY <actupny@panix.com>
To: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
X-Priority: 4
Status:
May we join you there?
WHY and for WHAT PURPOSE?
Dana Beal, your most offensive work in ACT UP was the promotion of
Ibogaine
as HIV prevention. In 1994, the majority of new infections were
occurring among drug injectors, creating large numbers of people with
AIDS,
for whom drug treatment can be a life-saving intervention. Despite
repeated
advice to raise this issue, never once did you include drug treatment for
PWAs in your promotion of Ibogaine. And in spite of repeated requests
from
harm reduction supporters within ACT UP, you never ceased to frame the
need
for ibogaine in a way which was very hostile to drug injectors, i.e.,
people
with AIDS.
While you may experience a deep personal sympathy for people living with
AIDS, your actions do not indicate a sincere willingness to understand
the
principles of PWA self-empowerment principles which drive ACT UP New
York.
YOU were essentially barred from bringing issues to the floor of ACT UP,
and
your working group was disbanded. This motion was passed by ACT UP New
York
back in 1994, for explicit reasons having to do with:
1. Your lack of cooperation with other parts of ACT UP
2. The inordinate amount of time which was spent on your issues at each
meeting
3. A consensus was passed by the floor that your agenda was hostile to
virtually all IDUs living with AIDS.
Medical marijuana is a very appropriate issue for the floor of ACT UP, at
all times. However, there are members in ACT UP that would advise The
Floor
to avoid working with you until it has developed its own agenda for
medical
marijuana access, it’s statement of principles on that issue, and it’s
boundaries around that issue.
———-
This reply reads more brutal than you might deserve, and for that, you
have
some of our apologizes. We know you are NOT a bad person and do some
good
work.
for that… regards,
r.deagle
d.grove
edited by webmaster
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] They havn’t killed me yet!!!
Date: March 18, 2002 at 1:25:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 03:02:18PM -0000], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
| Do all American’s ‘relapse’ over lack of money? oR TOO MUCH, OT WHATEVER IT
| IS
| Can’t u all move OVER to England then? We could set up our own community!
| Then I could see u all more often too – yeh!
No, no, no. Obviously you Just Don’t Understand. It merely symbolizes
how far I’ve come.
I am less than one week away from having my license de-suspended, and
then, then I’ll be driving around with a loaded gun, and it’ll all be
Perfectly Legal, because I’ll have an actual, geniune, driver’s license
and concealed weapons permit — and that is what Recovery is All About.
<wiping tears from eyes>.
This is just one, small example, of why America is the Very Greatest
nation in the United States.
| Oh, BTW, PaTRICK, your response to Betty(?) re 12 steppy issues I’ve kept
| and am considering quoting in a future Users Voice article IF that is ok
| with u. Let me know
Sure, no worries. I think it wuz Carla, Betty is a person who wanted to
know about ibogaine in Ireland … though, I forget if she asked me that
in mail, or on this list. Either way..
| Solidarity to my ‘family’-in-arms
| x
Like rock out n stuff.
Patrick
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
Date: March 18, 2002 at 3:49:49 PM EST
To: “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I finally determined that I had to forward this to your attention
inasmuch as Donald Grove works for you, in a position of particular
authority vis-a-vis Ibogaine, since he is coordinating, I believe, a
third world add-on conference to the AMFAR conf. in S.F. We could not
expect Ibogaine to get a fair reception there, or even a place on the
agenda at your Seattle meeting, if the sentiments expressed below
have any influence in the HRC.
Donald Grove obviously has influence. That is why his signature on
the following pack of distortions and outright calumny is profoundly
disturbing to all sincere people, including hundreds of IDU’s who
worked tirelessly for Ibogaine since the ’94 meeting where ACT UP, by
a 23/21 vote, pulled the plug on Ibogaine research at NIDA and tried
to force Cures not Wars to disband.
That decision was genocidal. Hundreds of thousands have needlessly
contracted the virus because Ibogaine was not pushed through and
approved in ’97 or ’98. This over supposed hostility to IDU’s with
AIDS! The reason we didn’t claim any special benefit of Ibogaine for
people with AIDS was that data showing incompatibility of methadone
and protease did not yet exist–for the simple reason that protease
inhibiters hadn’t yet been released, whereas that benefits of a
treatment that interrupted injection were as clear as the argument
for needle exchange.
What is especially disturbing is that the attack on cures not wars
was based largely on our espousal of market separation of cannabis
and hard drugs– a standard tenet of the Dutch Model and harm
reductionists everywhere. This was made out to be hostile to IDU’s
and in excess of the need for medical marijuana, when it is obviously
better never to have people start injection drugs to begin with than
to treat them once they’re addicted! Letting NORML, which has the
same, identical position, meet in your offices when Cures not Wars is
excoriated and banned from the movement and various conferences is
the height of hypocrisy.
The authors’ true purpose, which is to sideline medical marijuana in
NYC forever, is evident in the fact that they rule out working with
anyone who’s actually working on it.
BTW, I didn’t send ANY emails to ACT UP before I got this. Some one
else used my computer without realizing my name would come up on the
header. But it tells you a lot, and I think it really behooves you,
as Donald Grove’s superior, to call him on the carpet for the lies
and misrepresentations here below. NO ONE lobbying for medical
marijuana in New York will go to an ACT UP meeting after reading this.
Dana/cny
Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:28:56 -0500
Subject: WHY?? Re: Next Act up Meeting?
From: ACTUPNY <actupny@panix.com>
To: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
X-Priority: 4
Status:
May we join you there?
WHY and for WHAT PURPOSE?
Dana Beal, your most offensive work in ACT UP was the promotion of Ibogaine
as HIV prevention. In 1994, the majority of new infections were
occurring among drug injectors, creating large numbers of people with AIDS,
for whom drug treatment can be a life-saving intervention. Despite repeated
advice to raise this issue, never once did you include drug treatment for
PWAs in your promotion of Ibogaine. And in spite of repeated requests from
harm reduction supporters within ACT UP, you never ceased to frame the need
for ibogaine in a way which was very hostile to drug injectors, i.e., people
with AIDS.
While you may experience a deep personal sympathy for people living with
AIDS, your actions do not indicate a sincere willingness to understand the
principles of PWA self-empowerment principles which drive ACT UP New York.
YOU were essentially barred from bringing issues to the floor of ACT UP, and
your working group was disbanded. This motion was passed by ACT UP New York
back in 1994, for explicit reasons having to do with:
1. Your lack of cooperation with other parts of ACT UP
2. The inordinate amount of time which was spent on your issues at each
meeting
3. A consensus was passed by the floor that your agenda was hostile to
virtually all IDUs living with AIDS.
Medical marijuana is a very appropriate issue for the floor of ACT UP, at
all times. However, there are members in ACT UP that would advise The Floor
to avoid working with you until it has developed its own agenda for medical
marijuana access, it’s statement of principles on that issue, and it’s
boundaries around that issue.
———-
This reply reads more brutal than you might deserve, and for that, you have
some of our apologizes. We know you are NOT a bad person and do some good
work.
for that… regards,
r.deagle
d.grove
edited by webmaster
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 18, 2002 at 12:25:18 PM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I took it almost 2 yrs ago in Glastonbury; I was assisting 2 others and so I
took a very low dose, (about 2.5grms of the root-powder.)
Of significance, inner-experientially was: saw what appeared to be many
faces of me thought the ages or (just thought they were) seemingly depicting
the incredible changes I’ve undergone. It seems that either in the past or
deep down inside, there is a very strict matriarch – boys beware! –
Otherwise, visions were all about babies, wanting one (which addiction/lack
of good opportunity has successfully prevented..) and of course, being one
and all the problems that went along with it. I became a very vulnerable
asthmatic as a baby: i think the Iboga was just saying, Andria u need to
treat yourself with a little more kindness, as all psychedelics have always
taught me.
Some folk just take ages to learn!!
Anyway, great to hear from you Howard. Hopefully see u again at one of those
DPA conferences again, in the not too distant future
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 18 March 2002 16:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Andria,
Excellent response. Long time since we met at DPF conferences, I think.
Didn’t realize you tried ibogaine. What was your experience like? What
dose
if you recall?
Howard
In a message dated 3/18/02 10:02:57 AM, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:
<< So Sasha, perhaps Ibogaine isn’t for you. There are of course other ways
to
come off Methadone but they can be more difficult; why not come off it ml by
ml. A friend of mine did that in England who was on a HUGE script and he’s
doing great.
Having taken Ibogaine once in my life, I would suggest that it’s probably
almost impossible to take it without some kind of soul-searching but ‘coming
down and becoming a Leary-ite’ or whatever really isn’t compulsory. Indeed,
none of that is. It’s all down to u honey, and I think that is what’s tuff
about detoxing right?
I’m almost 9 yrs away from my last detox – grateful and only too pleased to
encourage and support others with same trial. Go for it Sasha; there is
always light at the end of the methadone tunnel; indeed, usually a lot more.
One more thing: O gotta a hunch that you are curious about Ibogaine,
otherwise u may have ignored us all. Am I wrong? Right? Whatever, go with
your inner voice; if it says essentially ‘fear of Ibogaine’ then try another
way. Ibogaine – like every other process isn’t the only way
Tons of strength and solidarity from England/London >>
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 18, 2002 at 11:31:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Andria,
Excellent response. Long time since we met at DPF conferences, I think.
Didn’t realize you tried ibogaine. What was your experience like? What dose
if you recall?
Howard
In a message dated 3/18/02 10:02:57 AM, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:
<< So Sasha, perhaps Ibogaine isn’t for you. There are of course other ways to
come off Methadone but they can be more difficult; why not come off it ml by
ml. A friend of mine did that in England who was on a HUGE script and he’s
doing great.
Having taken Ibogaine once in my life, I would suggest that it’s probably
almost impossible to take it without some kind of soul-searching but ‘coming
down and becoming a Leary-ite’ or whatever really isn’t compulsory. Indeed,
none of that is. It’s all down to u honey, and I think that is what’s tuff
about detoxing right?
I’m almost 9 yrs away from my last detox – grateful and only too pleased to
encourage and support others with same trial. Go for it Sasha; there is
always light at the end of the methadone tunnel; indeed, usually a lot more.
One more thing: O gotta a hunch that you are curious about Ibogaine,
otherwise u may have ignored us all. Am I wrong? Right? Whatever, go with
your inner voice; if it says essentially ‘fear of Ibogaine’ then try another
way. Ibogaine – like every other process isn’t the only way
Tons of strength and solidarity from England/London >>
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 18, 2002 at 10:12:28 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
So Sasha, perhaps Ibogaine isn’t for you. There are of course other ways to
come off Methadone but they can be more difficult; why not come off it ml by
ml. A friend of mine did that in England who was on a HUGE script and he’s
doing great.
Having taken Ibogaine once in my life, I would suggest that it’s probably
almost impossible to take it without some kind of soul-searching but ‘coming
down and becoming a Leary-ite’ or whatever really isn’t compulsory. Indeed,
none of that is. It’s all down to u honey, and I think that is what’s tuff
about detoxing right?
I’m almost 9 yrs away from my last detox – grateful and only too pleased to
encourage and support others with same trial. Go for it Sasha; there is
always light at the end of the methadone tunnel; indeed, usually a lot more.
One more thing: O gotta a hunch that you are curious about Ibogaine,
otherwise u may have ignored us all. Am I wrong? Right? Whatever, go with
your inner voice; if it says essentially ‘fear of Ibogaine’ then try another
way. Ibogaine – like every other process isn’t the only way
Tons of strength and solidarity from England/London
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Sascha Goldman [mailto:sgoldman@email.com]
Sent: 16 March 2002 21:29
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] hallucinating
I’ve read this list now for 2 days I think and I’ve read the ibogaine sites
and I’ve read Mindvox and I have a very simple question.
Will ibogaine get me off 80mg of methodone?
What makes me extremely queesy is looking at all this and not just Mindvox
which is like a slickly produced version of it, but all the rest too. It
doesn’t look so much like a medicine for curing addiction as it looks like a
psychedelic cult.
There is small difference between what most of you present and nearly any
psychedelic site online. I do not want to trip, I do not want to talk with
spirit beings, I do not want to become god, I do not want to come down and
turn into a born again Timothy Leary follower. I do not want to joint
meetings or groups. I would like to detoxify from methadone, that is all.
Will ibogaine do that without all the craziness? How do I take it and avoid
hallucinating?
I don’t want to offend and you can all do what you like but I find most of
the trappings very weird and not appealing to me.
Thanks
—
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] They havn’t killed me yet!!!
Date: March 18, 2002 at 10:02:18 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Do all American’s ‘relapse’ over lack of money? oR TOO MUCH, OT WHATEVER IT
IS
Can’t u all move OVER to England then? We could set up our own community!
Then I could see u all more often too – yeh!
Oh, BTW, PaTRICK, your response to Betty(?) re 12 steppy issues I’ve kept
and am considering quoting in a future Users Voice article IF that is ok
with u. Let me know
Solidarity to my ‘family’-in-arms
x
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 16 March 2002 19:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] They havn’t killed me yet!!!
On [Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:07:50PM -0800], [Robert Parker II] wrote:
| I need a wizard for a computer man and you agree the
| first that comes to mind. To give you an idea, I made
| 175,000 dollars last week. I also have hardware
| connections that may even beat your prices.
|
| Call me tomorrow so we can get together as we must
| talk in person about other information that unsafe
| even here regarding a business plan for music that
| cuts out even the distribution company and stands to
| make me ten million in the next seven years.
Hey, sounds good to me. Lessee, my current salary lacks another “0”
behind it, that whole entire .dot.bomb thing has tanked, which leaves the
backup bid’ness plan of waiting for my dad to drop dead… Alas, this may
take 20 more years, plus another 10 — give or take — for probate, since
I’m sure all his ex-wives are gonna have a whole lot to say ’bout things.
So, uhm, who am I to say no, I need a 2002 AMG Hammer or I will surely
relapse.
Patrick
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Afghan Heroin Floods Iran
Date: March 18, 2002 at 12:08:49 AM EST
To: IBOGA Foundation <iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pubdate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002
Source: Economist, The (UK)
Copyright: 2002 The Economist Newspaper Limited
Contact: letters@economist.com
Website: http://www.economist.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/132
WHAT THE TALIBAN BANNED
With the Taliban Toppled, Afghan Opium is Flooding Iran
FROM the point of view of their Iranian neighbours, the Taliban did two
good things. Their leader, Mullah Omar, banned the cultivation of opium
poppies, and he enforced that ban brutally. Iran’s leaders much prefer
Afghanistan’s new interim prime minister, Hamid Karzai, to his iron-fisted
predecessor, but wish he was tougher on drugs. Although Mr Karzai has
banned both poppy-growing and drug-trafficking, he cannot stop the trade.
What the Afghans grow, Iranians smoke or inject. At least 2m Iranians are
addicted to opium and its derivatives, morphine and heroin. Mr Omar’s ban
may have been a cynical ploy to win diplomatic recognition, but it caused
production to plummet and the price of opium to quadruple in a few months.
Impoverished Iranian addicts suddenly applied in record numbers for help in
kicking the habit. Overcoming its revulsion for the Taliban, Iran sent
experts to Helmand, Afghanistan’s main poppy-producing province, to
encourage farmers to grow other crops.
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n468.a07.html
——————————
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 17, 2002 at 3:49:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
To whom it may concern,
I can wholesale roses and the like but airports are
far to sophisticated for the likes of us Ibogaine
occultists, we need the street corner to properly
disseminate our religion.
hear hear!!!
To the rest of you who actually care and to those who
saved my life, thank you. I have been clean for
almost two years now. My daughter and wife are
eternally greatful for the treatment as am I.
Killer. congrats.
-dh
__________________________________________________
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From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 17, 2002 at 2:17:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To whom it may concern,
I can wholesale roses and the like but airports are
far to sophisticated for the likes of us Ibogaine
occultists, we need the street corner to properly
disseminate our religion.
Ahhhh, yes, we aspire to stand on the corner of the
wards and projects and sell you our flowers and
hallucinations. No science here.
To the rest of you who actually care and to those who
saved my life, thank you. I have been clean for
almost two years now. My daughter and wife are
eternally greatful for the treatment as am I.
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 17, 2002 at 1:52:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
doesn’t look so much like a medicine for curing addiction as it looks like a
psychedelic cult.
We don’t sell flowers at airports. not yet anyway – Say Patrick, know any good
perrenial wholesalers? or maybe we could sell holographic stickers of the ibo
molecule. NO, we are just ex-addicts who were blessed to have found a (pretty
cool) way to arrest the destructive cycle of consuming mass quantities of
drugs.
Will ibogaine do that without all the craziness? How do I take it and avoid
hallucinating?
Personally, I wouldn’t call it “Hallucinating” in the sense of “seeing what is
not there” I would term it visionary. Like for me, and just speaking from my
experience, the shit I saw was my own experiences in life, with some pretty
cool cosmic geometry thrown in for kicks. It was nothing like “tripping out” on
acid or shrooms. It was more of a DNA enhanced life review.
Then there’s the cases Howard points out, 10% don’t experience any visions. I
personally know someone who had just that. And he didn’t neccesarily look
forward to the visions, yet was disapointed afterwards.
But hey, Ibo isn’t the cure. Its your job to get/keep it together after the
Ibo. It just provides you with a clean slate to draw on, kinda like clearing
the etch-a-sketch screen. which usually calls for making some healthy changes
and finding something cool and interesting and generally positive that will
fill the hole left by the dope.
Of course you could wait indefinately for 18-MC to be tested/approved/marketed.
http://www.ibogaine.org/18-mc/index.html
-dh
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 17, 2002 at 12:41:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah, there’s your answer to your sub-conscience.
Focus on Patrick’s attitude rather than a possible
solution to your problem. Apply an antiquated value
system to an individual who has maintained sobriety
without, obviously, knowing the individual.
If you knew him you would know he says it with a smile
man.
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 17, 2002 at 12:29:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have personally seen the results on Methadone doses
considerably higher (120-160 mg.) doses of Methadone,
so I would not think you would have any problems
assuming you followed the corresct procedure.
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: fuak <fuak@nirvanet.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine..
Date: March 17, 2002 at 5:05:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
where did you seek treatment in europe? im going to see sara in holland.
suffering pharmacutical addition – but not abuse.
– colton
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 16, 2002 at 7:43:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/16/02 4:29:54 PM, sgoldman@email.com writes:
I’ve read this list now for 2 days I think and I’ve read the ibogaine sites
and I’ve read Mindvox and I have a very simple question.
Will ibogaine get me off 80mg of methodone?
You can pretty much count on it but, there are no guarantees.
<cut>
I do not want to trip, I do not want to talk with
spirit beings, I do not want to become god, I do not want to come down
and turn into a born again Timothy Leary follower. I do not want to joint
meetings or groups. I would like to detoxify from methadone, that is all.
Will ibogaine do that without all the craziness? How do I take it and avoid
hallucinating?
I would say there is a 10% chance that you will not experience extensive
visualization, that is, a waking dreamlike state. If you don’t like how
ibogaine effects are described, I would suggest you don’t take it. This is
not said to offend you. If you are not comfortable with it, don’t take it.
Howard
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 16, 2002 at 6:38:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:28:41PM -0500], [Sascha Goldman] wrote:
| Will ibogaine get me off 80mg of methodone?
Yes.
| There is small difference between what most of you present and nearly
| any psychedelic site online. I do not want to trip, I do not want to
| talk with spirit beings, I do not want to become god, I do not want to
| come down and turn into a born again Timothy Leary follower. I do not
| want to joint meetings or groups. I would like to detoxify from
| methadone, that is all.
|
| Will ibogaine do that without all the craziness? How do I take it and
| avoid hallucinating?
Look, this is why it’s extremely important to have the necessary TESTS and
things done prior to dosing. All you need to do is make sure you CHECK
THE BOX marked [x] “I do not wish to be Born Again onto the Church of
Timothy Leary.” And you’re good to go!
For Extra Added Assurance, have your counseler, caseworker, paper filling
out person, write in large blocky letters, atop the form “CLIENT DOES NOT
WISH TO TRIP THE FUCK OUT.”
Either alla that, or just go on an extended crack binge a week or two
prior to dosing; that should get rid of all those unwanted HaLlUCinaSHunZ,
or oneiric states, replete with hypnagogic imagery, if ya prefer.
Dr. Kroupa
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 16, 2002 at 5:20:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
How do I take it and avoid hallucinating?
The meaning of ‘hallucinating’ varies from drug to drug. However, it
appears that there is no way to avoid possible psychotropic effects
with ibogaine – and no way to guarantee them, either. It seems they
are less likely for active addicts.
As far as I know, no one has reported long-term statistics for getting
off methadone with ibogaine, although it seems there are plenty of
anecdotal reports and a few clinical studies showing success at the
initial task of detoxing from opiates in general (I haven’t paid
attention to the categories of opiates involved).
It is commonly stressed that the long-term result depends on you, not
the ibogaine, and that the work may not be easy in any case.
Bill Ross
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] same quetions
Date: March 16, 2002 at 4:46:42 PM EST
To: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for replying, I am very curious how it worked for you!
Carla,
As everyones experience in life with 0r without drugs is unique, so is the
Ibogaine experience. Howard summed it up pretty good, it all depends on where
you’re at with your life and what you do with yourself after treatment.
My experience: Used drugs for 20 years. started at age 11 smoking weed and
progressed steadily from there. fast forward to the 90’s. broken back. great
gobs of all kinds of pills, no limit on refills. pills finally run out. enter
heroin. lots of it. various forms of cocaine. attempts at various forms of
recovery. multiple. treatment. peyote. shamans. pills. methadone. methadone.
methadone. and a few hundred cold turkeys thrown just for kicks or due to
insufficient funds. did I mention chanting to the sacred spirit of shiva,
walking backwards counter clockwise around the room while holding a giant
burning bundle of white sage? well none of this stuff really worked, save for a
14 month period where I went to meetings but was pretty damn miserable and when
I inevitably went back to using it was worse than ever, just like “they” told
me. (must i explain “them”? I think not.) I was really just going thru the
motions and the 12 steps work for a lot of people but I wasn’t really believing
in it 4 myself.
1998. february. somewhere above the Atlantic ocean. driking my 3rd dose of
Methadone of the day. 18 more doses safely tucked in my carry-on baggage.
heading for a location somewhere in Europe, to try this thing called methadone.
I mean Ibogaine (doh!). I arrive and promptly dose. 1.5 grams dissolved in
water (kids don’t try this at home). WOW. unreal. I got really sick and threw
up 1/2 the dose (which was collected and verified by the resident chemist who
extracted the ibo out of my !ick!) But I had a pretty interesting experience.
the visuals, the introspective wandering, although somewhat attenuated because
I never got to digest the full issue. but amazingly enough my withdrawal
symptoms are reduced like by 75%. I was doing like 60-80 mgs of methadone prior
to dosing, which generally leaves you feeling not so great if you miss a dose
or two. slept 4 hours a night for the next 5 nights, but not feeling so great.
So I dose again, this time with the Ibo neatly tucked away in gelcaps, thank
you very much. Zoom. lubricated catapult into the cosmos. Extrodinary visions.
Liquid real. complete peace.
“There was no doubt, confusion or fear, only an awareness of light and
transcendence. I became aware of the pain, suffering, doubt, confusion and fear
that I hold as an addict is a spiritual matter, that I had lost touch with my
soul.”
I was “shown” a few things that really made sense in the months to come. Like
when I, as a young child, said fuckit. Things weren’t all shiny and happy for
me and my family situation, So at 5 years I surveyed the situation and begain
to check out. it was just a matter of time for the drugs to enter the picture.
I was a junkie waiting to happen. I severed any meaningfull conection with my
parents, “god” (and I use the term loosely here). I didn’t feel safe so I found
ways to get safe. man drugs really worked well for that. for a long time.
withdrawal symptoms all but gone save for an occasional leg cramp and the
inevitable fatigue.
anyways I had these great re-entry plans post ibogaine. like therapy, maybe
some meetings, get my career going, family, etc etc. Thing was the Ibo left me
feeling so empowered, I figgered I could things on my own. which led to a few
bong rips, which led to some drinks, which led to a few “innocent” vicodin
tabs, which led me right back to copping on 16th & Mission. that was a one
nighter. phew. OK, we won’t do that again (but lemme tell you, it was a
glorious high. I mean I got RIPPPPPPPED) couple months pass. a few hundred bong
rips and woops, there I am again in the city, no plans, pocket full of cash.
This time I cop a 1/2 g for the price of a 1/4. this shit never happens to me?
“I’ll just use 1/2 of it, and throw the other 1/2 out… I can handle that.”
fast forward 30 hours later. sitting in a corner in the basement. scraping the
last little smear off the plastic. pounding the cotton. get the fever. complete
degradation. bruises up and down my arm. same shit all over again. Then that
voice speaks up. “you don’t have to do this.” “you know there’s another way” so
I lay in bed a couple days and lick my wounds. start unraveling the mess with
some help from a few folks who’d been there. Even got to a place where I could
go to meetings and get something out of it. slowly pull my life back together.
therapy. 9 months of pretty much hell: homeless. jobless. But somewhere inside
I clung onto the glimmer of hope the Ibogaine showed me. Something was
different. The Ibo changed my relapse pattern. instead of a hellish period of
1-4 years, I narrowed it down to exactly two one nighters. give or take a few
hours. It bacame painfully apparent I had to either get busy dying or get busy
living. done the dying thing, figgered I’d try living for once.
That was almost 4 years ago. Lost a lot of friends in the meantime. Mom drank
herself to death. Jimmy OD’d and so did Spiros, Damien, James and Ziggy. Bless
& Rest their souls. I like living. Its cool. I get to do neat things I never
understood before. I do hit a few meetings. I do spend alot of time in nature.
I do eat pretty healthy food. I had to make a lot of changes. And I try to be
there for folks who have been there or are trying to get away from there, that
dis-ease of “addcition”.
-dh
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
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From: “Sascha Goldman” <sgoldman@email.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] hallucinating
Date: March 16, 2002 at 4:28:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’ve read this list now for 2 days I think and I’ve read the ibogaine sites and I’ve read Mindvox and I have a very simple question.
Will ibogaine get me off 80mg of methodone?
What makes me extremely queesy is looking at all this and not just Mindvox which is like a slickly produced version of it, but all the rest too. It doesn’t look so much like a medicine for curing addiction as it looks like a psychedelic cult.
There is small difference between what most of you present and nearly any psychedelic site online. I do not want to trip, I do not want to talk with spirit beings, I do not want to become god, I do not want to come down and turn into a born again Timothy Leary follower. I do not want to joint meetings or groups. I would like to detoxify from methadone, that is all.
Will ibogaine do that without all the craziness? How do I take it and avoid hallucinating?
I don’t want to offend and you can all do what you like but I find most of the trappings very weird and not appealing to me.
Thanks
—
_______________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Email.com
http://www.email.com/?sr=signup
Travelocity.com is giving away two million travel miles.
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;3969773;6991039;g?http://svc.travelocity.com/promos/millionmiles_main/0,,TRAVELOCITY,00.html
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] They havn’t killed me yet!!!
Date: March 16, 2002 at 2:04:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:07:50PM -0800], [Robert Parker II] wrote:
| I need a wizard for a computer man and you agree the
| first that comes to mind. To give you an idea, I made
| 175,000 dollars last week. I also have hardware
| connections that may even beat your prices.
|
| Call me tomorrow so we can get together as we must
| talk in person about other information that unsafe
| even here regarding a business plan for music that
| cuts out even the distribution company and stands to
| make me ten million in the next seven years.
Hey, sounds good to me. Lessee, my current salary lacks another “0”
behind it, that whole entire .dot.bomb thing has tanked, which leaves the
backup bid’ness plan of waiting for my dad to drop dead… Alas, this may
take 20 more years, plus another 10 — give or take — for probate, since
I’m sure all his ex-wives are gonna have a whole lot to say ’bout things.
So, uhm, who am I to say no, I need a 2002 AMG Hammer or I will surely
relapse.
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] psychedelic republicans
Date: March 16, 2002 at 2:00:25 PM EST
To: AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk
On [Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 06:54:39PM -0000], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
| Patrick, what’s your job?
|
| Love
|
| Andria E-Mordaunt
| Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
Andria, hey, hullo again.
Well, lessee, I write stuff — my stuff, and re-english a variety of
scientific materials, which oftimes looks as if the author has a 4th grade
command of language — I am the entire IT department for the brain bank,
and I do that neuroscience type thing, wherein I saw off people’s skulls,
slice n dice brains, do neuropaths, and occasionally remove spinal cords
when we need those.
Doing all this has caused me to lose any respect I may have had for
neurosurgeons — “we, uh, make very small holes in the skull, not unlike
whatcha might see in surgery books circa 1850 or so, we just, now know,
that the evil spirits do not leave through the hole… We think
anyway… And, uh, mostly we hope they wake up, and then, don’t sue us!”
— while gaining a tremendous amount of respect for the people who have to
make this pile of roadkill look presentable for an open casket viewing,
when I’m done with it.
love ya too,
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 16, 2002 at 1:31:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 02:12:24PM -0800], [Carla Barnes] wrote:
| Assuming it gets your clean, how long does it last? No disrespect but
| Patrick does not act like any grateful recovering addict that I have
| ever known, his entire attitude is “go fuck yourself” stated in those
| exact words on numerous occasions in heroin times. With a attitude like
| this I have never known a single former heroin addict who has not
| relapsed, yet you’ve made it nearly three years. I understand you are
| whatever it is that you are, but whatever that is exactly it’s not a
| “typical” drug addict and I’m not sure I understand what you are, what
What’s a “typical” drug addict…? I’m unsure I have ever met such a
person. Inasmuch as gratitude goes, I have a great deal of it towards
Deborah, who was instrumental in helping me help myself; towards ibogaine
for existing; towards Howard for discovering that neat side effect it has,
other than just making you trip out; towards my friends, who are mostly a
collection of total freaks, who are also managing to hold things together,
and provide, uhm, I’m not sure “support system” is accurate, but sumthin’
like consistent reinforcement that what we’re doin’ is possible, ‘cuz I
mean if Dave, Robert, Drew, any number of other total nutcases I have
complete resonance with — can do this; then so can I.
I have hostility and anger towards subnormal, low IQ idiots who attempted
to ram the One True Answer to everything — the 12 steps — down my
throat, while I was extremely weak and falling apart. The feelings I have
towards them, are the same I would have for anyone who attempted to
inflict emotional damages upon me while I’m totally fucked, and brainwash
me into some paradigm of eternal powerlessness. Fuck that noise mahn, I’m
very grateful none of that crap worked out, and simply had no resonance
for me.
As I think I’ve said maybe 50 times, I have no problem with the 12 steps
— they simply amount to, greatly simplified, very old eastern concepts
for dismantling ego, specifically rewritten for drug-dependent individuals
who are acclimated to western culture. Not much new there. Nothing wrong
with that. And quite a few of my friends have at least partial
involvement with all this.
What I have a problem with are people who SELL this shit as the ONLY
ANSWER to Everything; you are either with us, or one of the Unsaved
Sinners, who is Already In a State of Relapse; and it’s like… ya know,
I don’t need this shit, shut the fuck up, sit and spin with your
eternal classification of yourself as “powerless” and “addicted” and go
catch some meetings and share; you’d feel better.
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] a brief recap
Date: March 16, 2002 at 1:12:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:35:18AM -0800], [Bill Ross] wrote:
| People seem to complain either way <shrug>
|
| In principle, it could be both ways, configured by user (fun to
| program), or possibly having 2 lists configured either way
| cross-posting (users join whichever they desire) <cough, shuffle>.
<Walking up, handing you a SHINY GOLD STAR, Officially Designating you a
Customer Service Representative in charge of de-confusing the easily
confused.>
This is true, but kinda overkill… We’re not gonna start our own fork of
ezmlm. This is mostly here, just, cuz, it sorta gained momentum and
turned into an open list. The Holy Crusade here is to reopen MindVox,
which contains Forums; where you can subscribe, read them in your browser,
have the contents emailed to you and read them in your mail agent, Set the
Settings, Change all kinds of Controls, and make the messages display
upside down and sideways, in a rainbow spectrum of colors, superimposed
over this month’s edition of Sluts in Heat with Barnyard Animals, or
whatever else makes you Feel Happy inside.
We’re doing all this because We’re Americans, and Being an American is
all about dropping out of high school, doing a lot of drugs, committing
crimes, carrying concealed weapons, and Enforcing Democracy Throughout the
World — I meant to say; Freedom of Choice. Yeah, that wuz it.
By which I mean to say: all this and more will be doable within the
Forums, which will contain at least two ibogaine conferences, prolly more.
This list will prolly stay here anyway, just because people should have
options, choices and things, and something to read in case they can’t
figure out how to use the Forums (but this is where YOU will step in as an
Official Customer Service Rep).
– – – – – – – – –
I’m just gonna leave it set Reply-To; up until such a time when one “day”
at 5am, I am very tired and do something which causes it to Turn Around
and Bite Me In The Ass; at which point it’ll stop being funny, become
very serious, and we’ll hafta Make Changes for the Betterment of All
Mankind (and women too).
– – – – – – – – –
Patrick
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] a brief recap
Date: March 16, 2002 at 3:35:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
People seem to complain either way <shrug>
In principle, it could be both ways, configured by user (fun to
program), or possibly having 2 lists configured either way
cross-posting (users join whichever they desire) <cough, shuffle>.
Bill Ross
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
Date: March 16, 2002 at 3:08:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
For my part in this, you are welcome.
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] a brief recap
Date: March 15, 2002 at 2:55:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/15/02 1:02:30 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:
<<
This list now has Reply-To set. This means you will respond to the entire
list, not the individual sender. A few days ago it was set exactly the
opposite way. People seem to complain either way <shrug>.
Lemme know whatcha want (reply set to individual posting, or reply set to
list), and I will change it.
I prefer a list response rather than a respond to individual.
Howard
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 2:53:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I just wanted to say this is great! I’m going to take a wild guess here and hypothesise out loud that there are a lot of Dr. Mash’s extremely rich and addicted crazy people here in addition to the usual extremely broke and addicted crazy people to be found elsewhere. All this and the inside dope on behind the scenes music industry happenings and what looks like the Julie scans which just crashed my mailbox and I need to download. Thank you Jon if that’s what it is! .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 2:13:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanx man,
I truly appreciate everyone not taking advantage of my
fuck up. I apologize that my personal mail got sent
to all of you and am greatful that you guys have the
professionalism to keep such things outside the real
of drama hounds.
Cheers to all,
-Bob-
(Robert F. PArker II)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] psychedelic republicans
Date: March 15, 2002 at 1:54:39 PM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, what’s your job?
Love
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 14 March 2002 20:26
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] psychedelic republicans
On [Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:27:10PM -0800], [Robert Parker II] wrote:
| To all you insane entheogen freaks and to the one who
| sez we are insane:
|
| -b0B-
|
| P.P.S. Anyone else who takes advantage of the above
| information does so at their own risk (the phone
| number I mean). And the other above rant is
| copyrighted, so no one else has permission to use
| aside from Patrick who is a brother and true nut-case,
| yet also a true friend.
|
| Kind Regards to those of you who are on the path
| enough to understand what I’m saying and who I’m
| talking to.
Sir b0B!
You’re alive! In Florida! And not in prison or locked down in the
Phantom Zone . . . Fully excellent!
Hey, will call ya later today, wacked out morning, yet another homie has
gone to gangbanger heaven, woo hoo, point blank chest shot, to cop a line
from Trent Reznor, “so much blood from such a tiny little hole…” Which
it wuz, for a .45, who woulda thunk it meng. I love my job.
Patrick
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] same quetions
Date: March 15, 2002 at 1:33:15 PM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Carla
I am not an Ibogaine expert. I am an ex-addict, and AIDS widow, (not that that is particularly relevant here..). I have taken Ibogaine
Mostly, I’m a long term user activist and drug policy reformer based in the U.K. (though I’ve visited u guys a lot.
You ask a very important question, which before u get hopeful, I assure you I cannot answer BUT, the same is true for almost ALL treatment programs that assist addicts to come off drugs; the data on success rates after 1, 2 and 3 yrs (as you ask) is paltry indeed all over the world, but many of the protocols still get funding..
Perhaps, a more significant question(s) might be: why are rehabs not obliged to do follow ups; show their statistical rates in data?
And given that very few do, how come more is put into certain treatment protocols and not others
If the Treatment status quo were up front about these questions: I think it would give more credence to very important questions u ask, not to mention challenge them for what they cannot, or will not do
Warm regards
from chilly, wet London/U.K
Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 14 March 2002 18:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] same quetions
Thanks for the replies guys 🙂
But I still have exactly the same questions I asked in the first place.
I’ve now read I think at least half of Mindvox, it’s beautiful, it’s funny, it’s one of the weirdest collisions of drugs and technology and demented people I have ever seen in my life. I like the whole feel of the place. But, back to ibogaine.
Maybe I am wrong, I haven’t seen the videotape of the London ibogaine conference which Patrick said would be available some time this year, but from what I see most of the people promoting ibogaine have never been heroin addicts. Nobody has answered what happens after ibogaine dose 2 or 3, what difference it makes on a neurological level? Patrick has mostly glossed it, but has not yet once answered how someone who is on 200mg of methadone + 2 grams of heroin a day + 12mg xanax (and I am quoting out of Heroin Times the exact sentence) and has been an addict for most of their life, manages to turn everything around and s t a y clean. The closest answer I have is his psychological makeup is different then almost everyone else in the world, or he fell into a swimming pool of LSD afterwards. Note that I am not questioning what you accomplished, I am only completely confused about h o w, yes ibogaine detoxed you and then what? How did you stay clean.
Which was my last question, also unanswered. What are the results for long term sobriety post ibogaine? 50%, 20%, 5%, Patrick and 5 other people? Who’s left still standing a year, 2 years, 3 years later. Where are all these people who have detoxed with it and what happens to them.
I don’t mean to be confrontational, I’m only curious. HT said this was the original London conference speakers list, which means the some of the most experienced ibogaine experts in the world are reading this. Not one has replied to me with anything that answers what I asked. I am not asking for published reports, I know there aren’t any or they would appear on medline, any experiences are fine, any opinions, results, anything. Nothing that even comes close to answering what I’ve asked is on a n y of the ibogaine web sites, at least none that Mindvox links and I’m guessing its linking all the major ones.
Thank you
Carla B
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 1:02:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What happened with Sara?
Did something happen? in AMS?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] a brief recap
Date: March 15, 2002 at 1:00:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have like 3 mins right now.
This list now has Reply-To set. This means you will respond to the entire
list, not the individual sender. A few days ago it was set exactly the
opposite way. People seem to complain either way <shrug>.
Lemme know whatcha want (reply set to individual posting, or reply set to
list), and I will change it.
This list was a private mail reflector for the London ibogaine conference
speakers. As time weny by it accumulated a few other persons, and as of
roughly 48 hours ago, it simply became an open list.
If you wish to be removed from this list, mail to:
ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
If you know someone you feel should be on here, they can mail to:
ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com
The complete archives of what went on here prior to your arrival exist,
and the list software will mail them to you if you request it. For list
commands, mail to:
ibogaine-help@mindvox.com
As of right now, tha l1st has not been publicized anywhere except one
message which is buried someplace admist some other exchange. As of right
now there are roughly 85 people here. If you wanna let other people know
it exists, go ahead.
Patrick
p.s., replying to my mail in the very near future.
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 1:00:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Phuck!!!!!
I just gave you all my cell number thinking I was
emailing an individual. Please be kind and don’t
abuse the number. I would appreciate some respect
regarding this issue.
heh heh.
but we all want to fullfill your wet dreams.
-Gamma
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: “Rhodes, Kim” <krhodes@kisd.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 12:44:31 PM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please take me off this list. thanks, Kim Rhodes
—–Original Message—–
From: fuak [mailto:fuak@nirvanet.net]
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:42 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
could i have more info?
From: “Rhodes, Kim” <krhodes@kisd.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 12:43:58 PM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please take me off this list. thanks, Kim Rhodes
—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@cures-not-wars.org]
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 2:07 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
could i have more info?
What happened with Sara?
Dana/cnw
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 3:07:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
could i have more info?
What happened with Sara?
Dana/cnw
From: fuak <fuak@nirvanet.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine mailing list?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 10:41:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
could i have more info?
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 12:32:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Phuck!!!!!
I just gave you all my cell number thinking I was
emailing an individual. Please be kind and don’t
abuse the number. I would appreciate some respect
regarding this issue.
Thank you,
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 15, 2002 at 12:26:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My cell # is:
512.507.6990
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] They havn’t killed me yet!!!
Date: March 15, 2002 at 12:07:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pat!
Finally a personal email so I give you my phone #
(Cellular, call anytime, I keep it on vibrate and in
my underwear at night hoping someone will call and
fulfill the wet dream I always have about that girl in
the Bahamas a few years ago. 🙂 ).
512. 507.6990
Call anytime as I do most of my business at night.
Star Industry is signed to my label now and I talk
almost weekly to the god of music, Andrew Eldritch,
who, between you and me (seriously) is working with
Star Industry on the side and silently, I mean
silently with a capital S so really keep that info
btw. you and me). If you want in on the music action,
I need a wizard for a computer man and you agree the
first that comes to mind. To give you an idea, I made
175,000 dollars last week. I also have hardware
connections that may even beat your prices.
Call me tomorrow so we can get together as we must
talk in person about other information that unsafe
even here regarding a business plan for music that
cuts out even the distribution company and stands to
make me ten million in the next seven years.
Call me man, seriously, call me.
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] popular science runs ibogaine article
Date: March 14, 2002 at 9:44:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
For those of you with interest, the March Popular Science magazine has an
ibogaine article titled, “How To Get The Monkey Off Your Brain”.
Howard
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Exclusive to ya’ll on this list
Date: March 14, 2002 at 9:05:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The guy from nirvanet who mailed me: i agree totally, for some reason your email from me bounces though. I’d love to see the Operation Julie scans. Could you email them? Or get them to put it up on MindVox? Sorry more on psychedelic or entheogen topic related then directly on ibogaine. Got to say this beats the crap out of the main lists, open Mindvox already! I do not want to read voidmstr talking about alien UFO parts for the 40th time I am so filled with the urge to say just please shut up on the main list. As soon as Vox opens you must make the ignore option work right away. .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] same quetions
Date: March 14, 2002 at 4:44:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
from what I see most of the people promoting ibogaine have never been heroin
addicts. Nobody has answered what happens after ibogaine dose 2 or 3, what
difference it makes on a neurological level? Patrick has mostly glossed it,
but has not yet once answered how someone who is on 200mg of methadone + 2
grams of heroin a day + 12mg xanax (and I am quoting out of Heroin Times the
exact sentence) and has been an addict for most of their life, manages to
turn everything around and s t a y clean.
I did Ibo like about 4 years ago and used dope twice since then, yes, only
twice, whereas before ibo my ‘lapses’ into the opiate realm lasted anywhere
from 1-4 years. july 23 1998 i broke the syringe for the umpteenth jillion
time, threw out the cooker (not untill after i scraped every last speck of
black tar off the wrapper and pounded to cotton till i had the fever) and have
managed to s t a y clean since. it ain’t been easy but sure beats standing in
line “with all my heros at the methadone clinic” (thanks to PK for that
wonderful quote) with purple bloated arms, swollen hands and black sunken eyes.
but email me private and i’ll tell yah how it werked for me. everyonez story is
dif’rent, but kinda the same afterall.
-gamma
p.s. I did ibo the only way that was available to me; underground in a foreign country.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] psychedelic republicans
Date: March 14, 2002 at 4:32:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yet another homie has
gone to gangbanger heaven, woo hoo, point blank chest shot, to cop a line
from Trent Reznor, “so much blood from such a tiny little hole…” Which
it wuz, for a .45, who woulda thunk it meng. I love my job.
Patrick
you are truely a sick and twisted individual. and thats why we love you.
gamma
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] same quetions
Date: March 14, 2002 at 3:47:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:55:37PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:
| In a message dated 3/14/02 1:03:38 PM, carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:
|
| << Maybe I am wrong, I haven’t seen the videotape of the London ibogaine
| conference which Patrick said would be available some time this year, but
| from what I see most of the people promoting ibogaine have never been heroin
| addicts. Nobody has answered what happens after ibogaine dose 2 or 3, what
| difference it makes on a neurological level? Patrick has mostly glossed it,
| but has not yet once answered how someone who is on 200mg of methadone + 2
| grams of heroin a day + 12mg xanax (and I am quoting out of Heroin Times the
| exact sentence) and has been an addict for most of their life, manages to
| turn everything around and s t a y clean. The closest answer I have is his
| psychological makeup is different then almost everyone else in the world, or
| he fell into a swimming pool of LSD afterwards. Note that I am not
| questioning what you accomplished, I am only completely confused about h o w,
| yes ibogaine detoxed you and then what? How did you stay clean. >>
|
| Hi Carla,
|
| I can’t speak for Patrick but, you can get as good and as free a review of
| how ibogaine works on a pharmacological and neurological level by reviewing
| <www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html> and <
| http://www.med.nyu.edu/Psych/ibogaineconf/objectives.html>. You might want
| to purchase a copy of Academic Press’s “Ibogaine – Proceedings of the First
| International Conference” that actually contains papers written after the
| conference and containing more current information. It is available from
| Amazon.com or Academic Press.
|
| As to how long and how you stay clean…well it’s all over the map. First
| some people stay clean for as long as it takes to get to some dope. Others
| manage for 6 months or years depending how many doses of ibogaine they have
| had and who they are and where they are in their life. Most use something
| adjunct to ibogaine to keep themselves directed away from drug dependence.
| That can be anything from psychoanalysis to groups such as AA, NA etc. or
| even adjunct medications, rx or not. And, yes, I was really surprised to see
| ibogaine veterans making decisions to go to NA meetings that they would never
| have done before ibogaine and making the meetings work for them. But, in my
| opinion, the most important thing for a post ibogaine drug user to do IS to
| have something to do that fills their life and gives them satisfaction. No
| magic bullet here, just direction and work.
|
| Getting back to the issue of efficacy, sometimes you will see better results
| on a first or later dose of ibogaine than you will see on interim doses. It
| all comes down on a pragmatic level to who you are and where you are in your
| life. Ibogaine just lets you figure it out real fast and gives you the
| opportunity to use that information.
|
| If you want better answers than that, get on the ibogaine trail and you tell
| us.
Yeah, Howard just gave a pretty excellent summary… When I write shit
that doesn’t specifically go into what exactly I did, or do, it’s because
odds are it will not work for you, milage may vary, some settling of
contents does occur during shipping.
That tagline of Lilly’s “addiction is a lousy concept,” is pretty true.
People go through their lives with an endlessly interlocking series of
“addictions,” which they would not necessarily define as such… Without
taking an endless detour here which I don’t have the time to go into right
now — uhm… lessee, I have 8 minutes, okay… — at some point, for
whatever reason you have, you decide to cut loose heroin, or some other
drug, and okay, fine, you’ve made this choice… Except, there’s this one
little tiny problem remaining… I’m strung out, have a killer habit, and
no matter what “detox” I do, I cannot seem to get fucking unsprung… I’m
locked in a cell, I’ve lost the keys, and seem to be wrapped in a strait
jacket and 3 sets of handcuffs… The fact that I did this to myself,
doesn’t appear to be helping me GET THE FUCK OUT…
Ibogaine gets you the fuck out… Subjectively, it is unlike anything
else I have ever experienced, and I’ve done every opiate/opioid detox that
exists on the planet. None of them worked, ibogaine did.
At this stage there is nothing to prevent you from putting yourself right
back into the space you were in, prior to dosing with ibogaine. It takes
some people a few doses to realize, ahhh, okay, this is what ibogaine will
do for me, and then this here is the part where I have to get up off my
ass and make the rest happen.
I got my head together in an ashram just outside of Bangkok, roughly 50
yards down the road from 25,000 Hmoung who are in the process of
cultivating opium, and breaking it down into some of the cheapest, highest
quality heroin on the planet… It’s a weird place to get clean, but like
almost anywhere, what you find there depends a lot on what you’re looking
for.
What happens to people post-ibogaine… Is pretty much what Howard said,
it’s all over the map. And depends a great deal on who and what you are,
OTHER THAN drug-dependent. People do a large variety of things to stay
clean afterwards. What the exact statistics are… It’s hard to say,
people — unlike rats — are not locked down someplace for years and years
of time, for study… Is this guy clean… <shrug> Who the hell knows,
he says he is, does that make it so… Is someone who has “relapsed” a
few times, still a success… Is someone who is on legal narcotic
analgesics for pain, a drug addict, is … it’s a very large spectrum of
possibility.
To conclude and like wrap up, ‘cuz I gotta bounce right now; people have a
complex series of reasons for self-medicating with drugs. These issues n
things have to be dealt with, IN SOME MANNER post-ibogaine, or it prolly
won’t work out. Despite the fact that we can demonstrate that specific
strains of rats bred to be juNkIe raTz, can be dosed with a molecule, and
suddenly just decide they no longer wanna hit the lever — which is
interesting, ‘cuz, I mean, did the rat go to rat therapy, work out its
lousy childhood, gain insight into its self-destructive behaviour, and
connect itself to a higher power of its understanding…? Prolly not,
something else happened, which doesn’t have a whole lot to do with
psychology — but this is where it all spins back in the opposite
direction …
… Because, if the rat had a higher level of cognitive function, it would
take it a very short space of time to move right along to, “ya know
what… I’m a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp objects.
In fact… My life sucks… And all I have to look forward to is pretty
soon they’re gonna kill me and throw me in the garbage… Ya know what,
fuck this, why don’t I hit that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not
like it can possibly get any worse.”
outta here,
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] psychedelic republicans
Date: March 14, 2002 at 3:26:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:27:10PM -0800], [Robert Parker II] wrote:
| To all you insane entheogen freaks and to the one who
| sez we are insane:
|
| -b0B-
|
| P.P.S. Anyone else who takes advantage of the above
| information does so at their own risk (the phone
| number I mean). And the other above rant is
| copyrighted, so no one else has permission to use
| aside from Patrick who is a brother and true nut-case,
| yet also a true friend.
|
| Kind Regards to those of you who are on the path
| enough to understand what I’m saying and who I’m
| talking to.
Sir b0B!
You’re alive! In Florida! And not in prison or locked down in the
Phantom Zone . . . Fully excellent!
Hey, will call ya later today, wacked out morning, yet another homie has
gone to gangbanger heaven, woo hoo, point blank chest shot, to cop a line
from Trent Reznor, “so much blood from such a tiny little hole…” Which
it wuz, for a .45, who woulda thunk it meng. I love my job.
Patrick
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] same quetions
Date: March 14, 2002 at 1:55:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 3/14/02 1:03:38 PM, carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:
<< Maybe I am wrong, I haven’t seen the videotape of the London ibogaine
conference which Patrick said would be available some time this year, but
from what I see most of the people promoting ibogaine have never been heroin
addicts. Nobody has answered what happens after ibogaine dose 2 or 3, what
difference it makes on a neurological level? Patrick has mostly glossed it,
but has not yet once answered how someone who is on 200mg of methadone + 2
grams of heroin a day + 12mg xanax (and I am quoting out of Heroin Times the
exact sentence) and has been an addict for most of their life, manages to
turn everything around and s t a y clean. The closest answer I have is his
psychological makeup is different then almost everyone else in the world, or
he fell into a swimming pool of LSD afterwards. Note that I am not
questioning what you accomplished, I am only completely confused about h o w,
yes ibogaine detoxed you and then what? How did you stay clean. >>
Hi Carla,
I can’t speak for Patrick but, you can get as good and as free a review of
how ibogaine works on a pharmacological and neurological level by reviewing
<www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html> and <
http://www.med.nyu.edu/Psych/ibogaineconf/objectives.html>. You might want
to purchase a copy of Academic Press’s “Ibogaine – Proceedings of the First
International Conference” that actually contains papers written after the
conference and containing more current information. It is available from
Amazon.com or Academic Press.
As to how long and how you stay clean…well it’s all over the map. First
some people stay clean for as long as it takes to get to some dope. Others
manage for 6 months or years depending how many doses of ibogaine they have
had and who they are and where they are in their life. Most use something
adjunct to ibogaine to keep themselves directed away from drug dependence.
That can be anything from psychoanalysis to groups such as AA, NA etc. or
even adjunct medications, rx or not. And, yes, I was really surprised to see
ibogaine veterans making decisions to go to NA meetings that they would never
have done before ibogaine and making the meetings work for them. But, in my
opinion, the most important thing for a post ibogaine drug user to do IS to
have something to do that fills their life and gives them satisfaction. No
magic bullet here, just direction and work.
Getting back to the issue of efficacy, sometimes you will see better results
on a first or later dose of ibogaine than you will see on interim doses. It
all comes down on a pragmatic level to who you are and where you are in your
life. Ibogaine just lets you figure it out real fast and gives you the
opportunity to use that information.
If you want better answers than that, get on the ibogaine trail and you tell
us.
Howard
From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: [ibogaine] Exclusive to ya’ll on this list
Date: March 14, 2002 at 1:07:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I just did some scans of a beyond-obscure psychedelic text, the existence
of which had only been hinted at through some obscure mid 90’s Usenet FAQ
(I believe it was the _Clandestine Chemistry FAQ_ by one Yogi Shan.)
The book is called “Operation Julie” and details the police investigation
and subsequent bust of an acid cooking operation in the UK circa 1977. I
scanned in the cover and the pictures, which include some nice shots of
the microdot making equipment, lab gear, and the “gang’s” leader, Richard
Kemp. I also wrote a short bit of commentary about the ripple it had on
popular culture, etc. after it occurred. I sent it to Erowid, but thus
far they have not posted it – go figure. Figured there might be pepole on
this list interested in this sorta thing, so let me know if you want to
see this.
I also came a hair’s length away from acquiring a book that is probably
even rarer than this one – “The Brotherhood of Eternal Love.” I just so
happened to check my “ABEbooks Want List” after not checking it for a year
and I noticed that someone had a copy for sale on 3/13/02, but it was gone
within two days! Damn it! Has anyone out there actually seen this book?
Is it worth picking up?
I also have just xeroxed another essential work, “Journeys into the Bright
World” by Marcia Moore. I’ll try to get this converted into PDF format in
the next couple of months. This is another one of those “cold day in
hell” sorta books (only 5000 copies ever made, of which I have two) but is
absolutely essential reading for anyone interested in psychedelics. It’s
actually my all-time favorite book, which might be sayin’ something, I
don’t know – but if anyone else out there has been wanting to track this
down but has been unable, give me a shout out and I’ll try to get moving
on this. (I don’t think Erowid would publish the PDF of an entire book as
much as they might want to, but it deserves a much wider audience than
what it currently has – the author, Marcia Moore, has a gift with prose
the likes of which I’ve only seen a handful of other times.)
Anyway, a little off-subject I know – but I’ll refrain from posting much
that’s off-subject unless it’s somethin’ that might actually DO something
for someone. I’ve got about two posts’ worth of interesting stuph, the
culmination of about a year of research, so whatevah.
Cheers,
Jonathan
——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu
“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] same quetions
Date: March 14, 2002 at 1:02:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for the replies guys 🙂
But I still have exactly the same questions I asked in the first place.
I’ve now read I think at least half of Mindvox, it’s beautiful, it’s funny, it’s one of the weirdest collisions of drugs and technology and demented people I have ever seen in my life. I like the whole feel of the place. But, back to ibogaine.
Maybe I am wrong, I haven’t seen the videotape of the London ibogaine conference which Patrick said would be available some time this year, but from what I see most of the people promoting ibogaine have never been heroin addicts. Nobody has answered what happens after ibogaine dose 2 or 3, what difference it makes on a neurological level? Patrick has mostly glossed it, but has not yet once answered how someone who is on 200mg of methadone + 2 grams of heroin a day + 12mg xanax (and I am quoting out of Heroin Times the exact sentence) and has been an addict for most of their life, manages to turn everything around and s t a y clean. The closest answer I have is his psychological makeup is different then almost everyone else in the world, or he fell into a swimming pool of LSD afterwards. Note that I am not questioning what you accomplished, I am only completely confused about h o w, yes ibogaine detoxed you and then what? How did you stay clean.
Which was my last question, also unanswered. What are the results for long term sobriety post ibogaine? 50%, 20%, 5%, Patrick and 5 other people? Who’s left still standing a year, 2 years, 3 years later. Where are all these people who have detoxed with it and what happens to them.
I don’t mean to be confrontational, I’m only curious. HT said this was the original London conference speakers list, which means the some of the most experienced ibogaine experts in the world are reading this. Not one has replied to me with anything that answers what I asked. I am not asking for published reports, I know there aren’t any or they would appear on medline, any experiences are fine, any opinions, results, anything. Nothing that even comes close to answering what I’ve asked is on a n y of the ibogaine web sites, at least none that Mindvox links and I’m guessing its linking all the major ones.
Thank you
Carla B
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
From: “betty doyle” <bdoyle2@neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 13, 2002 at 11:34:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Robert,I would be thankfull for any info you can give and look forward to
talking with you soon.Betty
—– Original Message —–
From: “Robert Parker II” <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
I have taken Ibogaine the right way and will be ahppy
to provide you with the proper info but am presently
too busy, email me privately and I’ll give you my cell
# and talk to you. Even though I am a “hacker” I hate
typing.
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 13, 2002 at 11:01:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have taken Ibogaine the right way and will be ahppy
to provide you with the proper info but am presently
too busy, email me privately and I’ll give you my cell
# and talk to you. Even though I am a “hacker” I hate
typing.
-Bob-
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibo ibo
Date: March 13, 2002 at 10:44:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To whom it may concern,
I too have taken Ibogaine through Dr., Mash and am a
personal friend of both her and Patrick. Any
information I may be able to supply you with I am am
happy to do so, just email me. The experience was the
most profound of my life aside from watching my
daughter being born. But your intentions must not be
to “trip.” If this is the case, don’t even return my
mail. You must also follow the right LEGAL channels
and Dr. Mash has the right program, she is a gem and a
gift to those who seek waht we seek.
Kind Regards,
-Bob-
(Robert F. Parker II)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Robert Parker II <giving_ground2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] psychedelic republicans
Date: March 13, 2002 at 10:27:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To all you insane entheogen freaks and to the one who
sez we are insane:
If you were driving down the highway in a four door
canoe and all three doors fell of you would find
yerself unable to fry to bake or even come close to
broiling any pancakes and their eleitest (sp?)
brethren the waffles and the biscuit brothers. The
reason for this being the undeniable fact that snakes
have no armpits and oranges grow no hair when they
roll amble or even try to mosey across the desert of
Britaney Spier’s (or however one spells that fucking
media default so called icon of American capitalist
pop).
Besides, there’s far to much plastic in the world to
substantiate psychedelic republicans anyway, that is
aside from those who use the term “psychedelic
republican.”
-b0B-
P.S. Patrick, I need to talk to you, call me at the
Extended Stay America on 17th. St. Causeway.
ext.7684.
P.P.S. Anyone else who takes advantage of the above
information does so at their own risk (the phone
number I mean). And the other above rant is
copyrighted, so no one else has permission to use
aside from Patrick who is a brother and true nut-case,
yet also a true friend.
Kind Regards to those of you who are on the path
enough to understand what I’m saying and who I’m
talking to.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/
From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] psychedelic republicans
Date: March 13, 2002 at 10:01:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I still don’t know what Mindvox is you people a very very ill 🙂
Out of all the banners you’re running this is the greatest thing I’ve seen in a long time. OMG
http://www.psychedelicrepublicans.com/
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports – live college hoops coverage
From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibo ibo
Date: March 13, 2002 at 7:24:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I don’t care about all that, I just want to trip on it! Cool Beans alcoholic truck driver issue is out! Awesome cd with Nirvana boots before Butch Vig remastered and destroyed them, William Burroughs and Heroin, Ibogaine and Patrick Kroupa. You got a phat interview, 14 pages dog. Funny as shit. What I don’t get is how come you and Bill burroughs are in the alcoholic truck drivers issue. OTOH who cares. What I also don’t get is who is the guy who publishes that thing? I thought everybody from cDc/L0pht turned into Burnt AtStake.com, put on the 3 piece suits and started making half a mil a year for black hat work. Whatev, time for my next search [reliable package remailer services mexico canada] .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine efficacy?
Date: March 13, 2002 at 5:12:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’ve been reading the ibogaine material in heroin times for a few months, I’ve read the back issues, I’ve read the web sites, I’ve read Mindvox and so I have these questions which I hope someone can at least share some information about please.
I’ve read in some places on the net that ibogaine doesn’t work, the writers were very upset and sound like they genuinely feel they were lied to or betrayed somehow. In heroin times Patrick writes that he has no knowledge of ibogaine ever not working on someone who is detoxing from heroin, but he also says it sometimes takes 2 or 3 doses to work and then writes that he personally relapsed 20 minutes after getting off a plane after his first dose of ibogaine.
What is the difference between ibogaine 1 and ibogaine 2 or 3, what is it that is happening after 2 or more doses, what changes?
Assuming it gets your clean, how long does it last? No disrespect but Patrick does not act like any grateful recovering addict that I have ever known, his entire attitude is “go fuck yourself” stated in those exact words on numerous occasions in heroin times. With a attitude like this I have never known a single former heroin addict who has not relapsed, yet you’ve made it nearly three years. I understand you are whatever it is that you are, but whatever that is exactly it’s not a “typical” drug addict and I’m not sure I understand what you are, what your psychological makeup is, what keeps you clean, really anything at all about you except you are either a very talented writer or in severe need of medication 😉
My question is, what are the long term results of detoxing with ibogaine. If after dose 2 or 3 someone gets clean, how long do they stay that way. Out of 100 people how many are still clean 1 year later, 2 years, 3 years?
Thank you very much.
Carla B
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Mic check, one, one, one…
Date: March 11, 2002 at 12:44:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is the ibogaine list on MindVox. It started roughly two months ago
as a private list for the speakers at the London ibogaine conference.
Since that time a few individuals were added, and as of yesterday, it
simply became an open ibogaine list where anyone who wants, can subscribe.
It hasn’t been published anywhere except one message, and despite the fact
that there are a variety of interesting people on the main Vox “talk”
list, I have not posted it there, because it’d draw a lotta individuals
who just create static without contributing anything positive — and the
random flybys from the I HATE ALL OF YOU crowd who read Heroin Times, is
prolly sufficient unfocused rage.
As of right now there are roughly 75 people on this list, maybe 15 of you
didn’t subscribe, but were just added by me, because you are someone with
whom I converse in private about entheogens; you’re one of the people who
wrote me email with many questions, regarding something in Heroin Times,
or your name pops up in my mailbox when searching for “ibogaine” despite
the fact that I have no clue who you are.
If you know someone who wants to be added to the list, the address is:
ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com
To send mail to the entire list, you need to place the address into the
To: or Cc: field:
ibogaine@mindvox.com
(Or, if people want, I can set Reply-To, so it automatically responds to
the entire list.)
To remove yourself from the list, send email to:
ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [IBOGAINE] ibogaine lists
Date: March 10, 2002 at 9:24:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
On [Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:50:24AM +0000], [sabrina valez] wrote:
| <Extremely long, emotional message was [here].>
< <Extremely detailed response omitted.>
Fine, it’s open:
ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com
You may cross-post, cc across both lists, do whatever makes you feel happy
inside.
<Various responses, facts, opinions, rants, sentences, words, letters of
the English alphabet — and many others — would go [in this space] if I
had time to type them right now.>
!Oom yas tsuJ
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Uhm… Okay then…
Date: March 10, 2002 at 9:14:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
-=/[ INSERT FLASHING RED LIGHTS HERE / SIREN SOUND / BUZZING / NOISE ]/=-
Please DO NOT reprint, repost, or resend this message.
Fuck it, I guess I am gonna just open this list, and restart an intranet
ibogaine list in the near future. The point of all this ain’t running
lists, which are just bandaids, but to have the lists within the Forums,
which you can access through a browser or any email client.
Again, DO NOT repost this, DO NOT give out the URLs… We are really
nearly open. Oracle is running, it’s talking with EOF, Direct to Web and
WebObjects, it is running through a secure socket layer, behind a
firewall, and allowing port 80 access (http, the browser port).
Much of what we have left to do is simply de-splattering the controls, all
this shit does not just materialize, it takes a lotta time… But at this
rate, if we wait to open when All Things are Perfect, it’ll be 2004, so
fuck it, we will hit open on MindVox very soon, and make it look pretty
sideways.
These are the test forums; they contain crap from 1992 onwards, most of
the cool stuff is not loaded, these are just being used as a test of
Oracle/EOF/Direct to Web/WebObjects:
http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVox
This is the beta attempt to de-splatter the controls, again it is not
done, but will work in a few days:
http://www.mindvox.com/forums.html
The above DOES NOT WORK with anything except internet explorer right
now…
Please DO NOT repost these, or we will have to move all this shit.
– – – – – – – – –
Two simple questions:
ibogaine@mindvox.com will now be open to whomever wants to subscribe to
it, anyone can cc to it, cross-post, do whatever they want, it runs,
doesn’t fall down go boom hurt itself.
[1]: Do you wish Reply-To set to the list…? This simply means that
hitting [Reply] replies to the ibogaine list, NOT the individual who
posted it. I am guessing YES.
[2]: Do you want me to set Archive on…? This means that no messages are
ever lost, and anyone who joins at a later time may obtain all prior
messages by simply sending a request… Again I am guessing yes.
I won’t set either one of these until somebody responds to me with what
they would like. It’s not a biggee, it takes 30 seconds of editing a
.config file.
Thanks,
Patrick
From: “sabrina valez” <svalez@hotmail.com>
Subject: ibogaine lists
Date: March 10, 2002 at 7:55:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: digital@phantom.com, hsl123@aol.com, sandberg@onetel.net.uk, dana@cures-not-wars.org
Hi, I know this is a tense time here and I’m not criticizing I’m really not I’m even going to read my message back to myself again after I write it to make sure I don’t appear to be going off on anyone because that is not what I intend with this message at all.
First of all is Patrick’s ibogaine list. I just read this Heroin Times where he covers your conference in London with the photos and things and I read an issue I think two issues ago where he also posted it. He posted ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’ is a mail list to reach all speakers at the ibogaine conference. *not* a ‘open’ ibogaine list.
I can accept that, but it’s not fair, because that isn’t what it is. No offense but Howard wasn’t a speaker, he just said he’s on it, Dave Hunter wasn’t a speaker yet he posts to it, Dana Beal edits the hilights of that list and sends them out all over the place in his mailing list and I see a lot of traffic there including important things like that person who was dying or having a problem after dosing with ibogaine. There are the media people shooting more ibogaine footage, it’s on Patrick’s list and in Dana’s reprints of it, none of that is ever seen by anyone except those same people who are now deciding who reads what and never bother to send anything out to the rest of us.
None of that ever reaches anyone else. It looks like a private clique where 15 or 20 people have decided to talk among each other and not let anyone else read it, but that’s not even true because Dana Beal reposts pieces of it everywhere, so people are allowed to read some parts of it, days or weeks after they happened.
What is the deal with that? I don’t think that’s fair. If you’re going to run a ibogaine list then at least let us subscribe to it if we want to read it, please. It is *not not not not not* a list for the conference speakers like you stated, it’s a list where anything that’s happening is now being posted and we’re not allowed to subscribe to it. I tried to subscribe, I was ignored.
Please, Patrick, change it so that we can at least sign up to it, Dana reposts parts of it so its not like it’s private anyway. Come on!!!!
Second, from what Dana Beal reprints out, you (patrick) said all these things as jokes I think, ‘there are more people reading my stream of consciousness rants and looking at Drew’s art then there are reading Drug Policy.org and the burningman site’ and you think it’s funny but it’s not, it’s true. I don’t know how those nielsen netratings work or how accurate alexa is, but all of them list Mindvox way way way up there, there are more people reading that then have read all the ibogaine sites combined in their entire time online. That’s crazy. Ibogaine Research Project which again again again, was pointed out on your ibogaine list which Dana Beal reprinted, has more then double the hit rate of ibogaine.org or ibogaine.co.uk and you’ve removed almost all the content from it (why I don’t know), you list it nowhere except Mindvox and everyone is landing on it.
I would have thought ok that’s your business, you’re promoting Dr. Mash, except *you’re not!!!!!!* you run banners for Nick’s site, you link Howard! You link everything, you have everyone you people have decided counts on your lists and there isn’t anyone being left out. *except for us!* We’re not allowed to sign up to the list.
Come on, please change that, let us at least subscribe to it and take part!!!
Last of all is the reliability issue. I know all of you do this for free and I am not bitching, but when all these things are happening, the mindvox ibogaine list is always up, it doesn’t just go into space for days or weeks and I don’t know if that’s happened here because nobody has anything to say or because it’s down so often but that list runs a lot better then this one. And that’s only based on the fact that Dana Beal appears to be reprinting all this stuff off it on a regular basis. And while all that is happening, what’s being said here. Zero, nothing.
Please consider opening the ibogaine@mindvox.com list to anyone who wants to sign up. Thank you, I am not bitching, I’m trying not to complain I am only pointing out that it is *not* a list for the conference speakers like you said it was, so if it’s changed from that, please open it!
Thank you for listening
I am also sending this message through email and to the ibogaine@mindvox.com list seperately in case it doesn’t post to the ibogaine@calyx.com list or it doesn’t allow cc’s or I don’t know what, I just want it to be heard not vanish somewhere.
-sabrina
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Treatment is immediate in London: who will go talk to these mothers?
Date: March 10, 2002 at 1:22:45 AM EST
To: IBOGA Foundation <iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pubdate: Fri, 08 Mar 2002
Source: BBC News (UK Web)
Copyright: 2002 BBC
Contact: http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/forum/
Website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/558
HEROIN ADDICTS ‘FAILED’ BY DETOX
Drug addicts’ families have warned their children could die while waiting
for live-saving detox treatment due to a lack of public cash.
Parents in the south Wales Valleys have come forward to warn the system to
end heroin addiction is under funded by the Welsh Assembly and failing.
The assembly’s health department has admitted statistics underestimate the
number of drug-related deaths.
And Rhondda AM Geraint Davies has pleaded in the assembly for an urgent
change in anti-drug programmes, with some addicts waiting 18 months.
Meanwhile, the Welsh Council on Alcohol and Drugs is saying the assembly
lacks both the cash and necessary strategic vision to tackle the problem.
The latest salvo in the drug debate was fired when Plaid Cymru’s Mr Davies
took a constituent’s case to the assembly chamber.
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n421.a07.html
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] shoulda tried ibogaine
Date: March 9, 2002 at 8:41:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pubdate: Wed, 03 Jul 2002
Source: Daily Telegraph (UK)
Copyright: 2002 Telegraph Group Limited
Contact: dtletters@telegraph.co.uk
Website: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/114
Author: Richard Alleyne
COCAINE-DEATH BILLIONAIRE’S MISTRESS DIED OF OVERDOSE
THE former mistress of a billionaire Greek shipping magnate
“devastated” by his death from cocaine abuse was
discovered dead from a drug overdose in her west London flat,
an inquest heard yesterday.
Baroness Michelle de Massy, a former fashion model who was
once married to the nephew of Prince Rainier of
Monaco, was at the centre of an international jet set in which
the recreational use of drugs was commonplace.
She was the lover of Vitas Gerulaitis, the flamboyant tennis
star who died in 1994, aged 40, of carbon monoxide
poisoning in a beach cottage at Long Island, New York. He had
admitted using cocaine while at the peak of his
career.
The engineer who installed the cottage’s heating system was
charged with criminally negligent murder.
Baroness de Massy’s dinner parties in her Kensington flat,
which had Marc Chagall paintings on the wall, were
notorious with guests often being presented with half a gram
of cocaine for dessert.
But her circle’s hedonistic lifestyle, which had led to her
husband leaving her in 1985, turned sour with the death
of one of its chief proponents, Constantine Niarchos, in 1999.
The heir to a Greek shipping fortune had taken enough cocaine
to kill 25 people. Such had been his appetite for
the drug that he had eaten it.
His death hit Baroness de Massy particularly hard. She had
been his lover and it was she who discovered his
body in his Mayfair flat.
Friends said Baroness de Massy, who was born in Norway, never
recovered from the shock and her use of
drugs and alcohol became much more serious.
Despite numerous attempts to clean up – she underwent
treatment in 13 rehabilitation centres – her health
deteriorated.
She suffered 11 seizures brought on by the drugs and her liver
was badly damaged. She eventually died from a
cocktail of heroin and diazepam at her Kensington home in
November. She was 41.
The inquest in Westminster, central London, heard she was
surrounded by the paraphernalia of a serious drug
abuser including syringes and wraps of heroin.
After the hearing, Nanzee Soin, her best friend, said:
“Michelle was beautiful and intelligent, but despite that she
had very little self-esteem.
“She did not believe anybody would like her for herself so she
chose to disguise herself by taking drugs.
“When Constantine died that had a devastating effect on her.
Love-wise, she was not happy after he died. She
was having an affair with him. He was married at the time,
but they were really happy together.”
Another friend, Eva Harold, of Chelsea, said she regularly
accompanied Baroness de Massy to Royal Ascot, polo
matches at the Guards Club and Tramps and Raffles nightclubs.
A report presented to the hearing from Monaco, where she had
been receiving treatment at the Princess Grace
Hospital shortly before her death, said she had a heavy past
of multi-addictions, including opiates, cocaine and
alcohol.
Prof Colin Berry, a pathologist, told the inquest that she had
taken heroin combined with diazepam and her liver
showed signs of sclerosis.
He said: “She would be a slow metaboliser of these drugs. It
is probable she died of mixed drug intoxication.”
Her friend George Crump, who discovered her body, said he had
found her unconscious the day before after
taking too many drugs. But she had recovered and promised
“not to take anything”.
But when he returned the next day she was collapsed in her
bedroom. He called an ambulance, but paramedics
could not resuscitate her.
Dr Paul Knapman, the coroner, recorded a verdict of death by
misadventure.
He said: “It’s a tragedy that her lifestyle finally caused her
death at the age of only 41.”
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] magic drug
Date: March 8, 2002 at 9:03:37 PM EST
To: Night Stalker <nightstalker1962@hotmail.com>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 01:24:29AM +0000], [Night Stalker] wrote:
| Give me a break a magic drug that cures heroin addiction. Yeah right. Would
| all of you shut the fuck up. Kroupa you’re a loudmouthed asshole send me
| your address and I’ll mail you heroin inject it and shut the fuck up
| already. Just what everyone needed another drug cult as if the NA meetings
| weren’t bad enough.
|
| I’m unsubscribing from the new issue notify list from HT as of right now.
| Fuck all of you.
Thank you for your focused energy. It has been added to my collection.
My psyche runs equally well on either flavor. I do not want to let
anything as silly as facts get in the way of things, but I am unsure how
you derive “cures heroin addiction” from my statement, which is reproduced
below for your convenience:
– – – – – – – – –
Ibogaine is NOT a “cure” for drug addiction. It will not fix everything
and somehow make it different. It does not work for everyone, and it can
take multiple doses of ibogaine for even a highly motivated individual to
break out of their cycle of drug dependence.
– – – – – – – – –
That is my closing paragraph. At any rate, Kali loves and blesses you my
child, may you walk the rest of your days in her benevolent shadow.
p.s., sure, send me some dope. My address is enclosed in a private
letter. Every little bit helps. I’m kinda broke n stuff, and could use
some COMMODITIES to resell.
Patrick
p.s.,/2 (not to be confused with OS/2) I understand you are in pain and
suffering, enclosed is an Ode, a Homage, a Work of Great Art, which has
uplifted me when things were at their darkest…
– – – – – – – – –
(an Ode to SuperGreat (#1 Forever!))
how i miss greg – a poem, by “Sara”
how i miss greg, let me count the ways…
the flitter of his uni-brow,
it’s texture rich with unspoken angst & power
-how elegantly it framed his seductive eyes
those eyes, yes, eyes…
like puddles of slightly used motor oil
deep in gaze, soft yet liquidy hard
-they stare, not unlike the wing-ed harpie
with an amazement – in awe of his own infinite
skillz (echo – echo)
[only darkness now – silence]
what’s that? a torn and ragged red warm-up suit?
i hold it to my breast and shudder to think
how…
[pause – can i get a shout out?]
OH HOW! this polyester still has a scent to remind me
of his crossfade akshun, his rocking of the mic
-his numba one
[pause, a moment of reflection… then a breath]
if only I could have been his numba one baby for gravy!!!
[i bow, and walk away sullen; drowning in a sea of subdued applause]
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] london ibogaine
Date: March 8, 2002 at 8:56:10 PM EST
To: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 04:24:32PM -0800], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:
| I wanted to write before but didn’t know what to say so after this
| issue of heroin times I finally am. I have never done ibogaine but I
| think what all of you are doing is great and giving as many alternatives
| as people can get is very important. Heroin addition sucks!
|
| I also wanted to say I think your a weird combination of very smart,
| totally psychotic and really cute, if you ever relapse Patrick you can
| come live on my couch. The same goes for Nick Sandburg 🙂
|
| Keep it going, even if it’s not the choice for everyone your letting
| people know they have choices at least!
Yo baby, yo baby, yo baby, yo… Thanks a bunch, I love you too, lots and
lots, forever and ever. Can I borrow $50 bucks…?
| Mindvox is beautiful, what is it????????????/
It’s a Church / Escort Agency.
Patrick
p.s., I dunno, last time I saw him Nick was totally out of control and
close to the edge yo. Perhaps YOU can be THE ONE who Saves Him from
himself. It will take lots of time, money, and personal attention, but I
feel you may be Up To It. (Are you a hottie? Please enclose nude photos
in your next correspondence.)
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] magic drug
Date: March 8, 2002 at 8:37:49 PM EST
To: Night Stalker <nightstalker1962@hotmail.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com
I wouldn’t say “cure” in the same sentance as Ibogaine, but yeah: Ibo Works.
elimnates withdrawal. gives you a fresh start. no shit.
— Night Stalker <nightstalker1962@hotmail.com> wrote:
Give me a break a magic drug that cures heroin addiction. Yeah right. Would
all of you shut the fuck up. Kroupa you’re a loudmouthed asshole send me
your address and I’ll mail you heroin inject it and shut the fuck up
already. Just what everyone needed another drug cult as if the NA meetings
weren’t bad enough.
I’m unsubscribing from the new issue notify list from HT as of right now.
Fuck all of you.
_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Night Stalker” <nightstalker1962@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] magic drug
Date: March 8, 2002 at 8:24:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Give me a break a magic drug that cures heroin addiction. Yeah right. Would all of you shut the fuck up. Kroupa you’re a loudmouthed asshole send me your address and I’ll mail you heroin inject it and shut the fuck up already. Just what everyone needed another drug cult as if the NA meetings weren’t bad enough.
I’m unsubscribing from the new issue notify list from HT as of right now. Fuck all of you.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] london ibogaine
Date: March 8, 2002 at 7:24:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: publisher@herointimes.com
I wanted to write before but didn’t know what to say so after this issue of heroin times I finally am. I have never done ibogaine but I think what all of you are doing is great and giving as many alternatives as people can get is very important. Heroin addition sucks!
I also wanted to say I think your a weird combination of very smart, totally psychotic and really cute, if you ever relapse Patrick you can come live on my couch. The same goes for Nick Sandburg 🙂
Keep it going, even if it’s not the choice for everyone your letting people know they have choices at least!
Mindvox is beautiful, what is it????????????/
-carrie
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: unusual Ibogaine experience
Date: March 8, 2002 at 7:54:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@ibogaine.org, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
thank everyone for on and off line comments and instructions. The man came back and it seems that everything will be OK ;-))
And we have learned a valuable lesson!
Marko
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] unusual Ibogaine experience
Date: March 8, 2002 at 1:59:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@ibogaine.org>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] unusual Ibogaine experience
I hope that someone can comment this…
Male, 36, 90 kg, heavy heroine user (5g/day sniffing and smoking) took
1,8g
of Ibogaine HCl 4 days ago. He has no pain, no withdrawal – everything
would be perfect IF he was back. His wife says that he knows his name,
age,
children, etc. only 10% of time; 90% of time he’s with Robin Hood (and his
mother), fishing, sailing, gathering food (everything is in his mind, of
course). His wife says that he drinks and eats and goes to the toilet by
himself; but everything he eats he either throws out or has dhiarrea. His
urine is dark and smells bad, and his wife noticed tiny red spots in it
(today).
Does anyone knows what’s going on with him? His wife is having enough of
this (and I understand her!), and the woman who gave him HCl is getting
more and more nervous…
Thanks for your help,
Marko
Hi Marko,
After a large dose of the rootbark in the Cameroun I had no clue whatsoever
of who I was or where I was for about 6 and a half days. About half the time
I was in a REM state apparently downloading vast amounts of weird material
from God knows where and the other half babbling incoherently (so I’m told).
After that, stuff came back fairly quickly. I couldn’t eat or drink barely
anything in that time, lost about 7kg in weight and looked totally
dehydrated.
I don’t know if this helps any, but at least it shows this kind of thing has
happened before. When the guy comes back down I’d be happy to talk to him or
mail him, if that’s any use. My opinion is that there are personal
psychological and psychic reasons why this kind of thing can happen, and
also issues to do with astrology and the phase our planet is currently going
through, but this whole area is kind of hazy so I won’t just speculate.
Hope things work out and you can give them my number if you think it would
be of any use
Nick +44 20 7287 4656
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] unusual Ibogaine experience
Date: March 8, 2002 at 1:57:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@ibogaine.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@ibogaine.org>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] unusual Ibogaine experience
I hope that someone can comment this…
Male, 36, 90 kg, heavy heroine user (5g/day sniffing and smoking) took
1,8g
of Ibogaine HCl 4 days ago. He has no pain, no withdrawal – everything
would be perfect IF he was back. His wife says that he knows his name,
age,
children, etc. only 10% of time; 90% of time he’s with Robin Hood (and his
mother), fishing, sailing, gathering food (everything is in his mind, of
course). His wife says that he drinks and eats and goes to the toilet by
himself; but everything he eats he either throws out or has dhiarrea. His
urine is dark and smells bad, and his wife noticed tiny red spots in it
(today).
Does anyone knows what’s going on with him? His wife is having enough of
this (and I understand her!), and the woman who gave him HCl is getting
more and more nervous…
Thanks for your help,
Marko
Hi Marko,
After a large dose of the rootbark in the Cameroun I had no clue whatsoever
of who I was or where I was for about 6 and a half days. About half the time
I was in a REM state apparently downloading vast amounts of weird material
from God knows where and the other half babbling incoherently (so I’m told).
After that, stuff came back fairly quickly. I couldn’t eat or drink barely
anything in that time, lost about 7kg in weight and looked totally
dehydrated.
I don’t know if this helps any, but at least it shows this kind of thing has
happened before. When the guy comes back down I’d be happy to talk to him or
mail him, if that’s any use. My opinion is that there are personal
psychological and psychic reasons why this kind of thing can happen, and
also issues to do with astrology and the phase our planet is currently going
through, but this whole area is kind of hazy so I won’t just speculate.
Hope things work out and you can give them my number if you think it would
be of any use
Nick +44 20 7287 4656
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] unusual Ibogaine experience
Date: March 7, 2002 at 4:40:37 PM EST
To: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:20:34PM +0100], [Ustanova Iboga] wrote:
Plus. also, slow metabolizer or not, if he’s still going 4 days later,
there may have been something wrong with his liver or kidney function to
begin with…
To reiterate (strongly) make him drink, replenish electrolytes; by
tomorrow, call Deb, and/or take him to a hospital and find out if he’s
experiencing renal failure, or something else is seriously wrong…
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] unusual Ibogaine experience
Date: March 7, 2002 at 4:36:40 PM EST
To: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:20:34PM +0100], [Ustanova Iboga] wrote:
| I hope that someone can comment this…
|
| Male, 36, 90 kg, heavy heroine user (5g/day sniffing and smoking) took 1,8g
| of Ibogaine HCl 4 days ago. He has no pain, no withdrawal – everything
| would be perfect IF he was back. His wife says that he knows his name, age,
| children, etc. only 10% of time; 90% of time he’s with Robin Hood (and his
| mother), fishing, sailing, gathering food (everything is in his mind, of
| course). His wife says that he drinks and eats and goes to the toilet by
| himself; but everything he eats he either throws out or has dhiarrea. His
| urine is dark and smells bad, and his wife noticed tiny red spots in it
| (today).
|
| Does anyone knows what’s going on with him? His wife is having enough of
| this (and I understand her!), and the woman who gave him HCl is getting
| more and more nervous…
He’s an EXTREMELY slow metabolizer… You HAVE TO hydrate him, make him
take fluids, do you guys have gatoraide…? Give him that, if not, ANY
fluids, salt, calcium, MINERALS, he needs to replenish electrolytes or the
dude will drop dead.
MAKE HIM drink, he will eventually piss it out.
If he’s still going by tomorrow, call Deborah, 305/243.5888 She will give
ya further advice.
MAKE the guy drink, or he will die.
Patrick
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: [ibogaine] unusual Ibogaine experience
Date: March 7, 2002 at 4:20:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@ibogaine.org, ibogaine@mindvox.com
I hope that someone can comment this…
Male, 36, 90 kg, heavy heroine user (5g/day sniffing and smoking) took 1,8g of Ibogaine HCl 4 days ago. He has no pain, no withdrawal – everything would be perfect IF he was back. His wife says that he knows his name, age, children, etc. only 10% of time; 90% of time he’s with Robin Hood (and his mother), fishing, sailing, gathering food (everything is in his mind, of course). His wife says that he drinks and eats and goes to the toilet by himself; but everything he eats he either throws out or has dhiarrea. His urine is dark and smells bad, and his wife noticed tiny red spots in it (today).
Does anyone knows what’s going on with him? His wife is having enough of this (and I understand her!), and the woman who gave him HCl is getting more and more nervous…
Thanks for your help,
Marko
From: “mallendi@voila.fr” <mallendi@voila.fr>
Subject: [ibogaine] Tr:[ibogaine] Tr:Réponse pour lettre BBC
Date: March 5, 2002 at 10:01:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
———- Début du message initial ———–
De : “mallendi@voila.fr” <mallendi@voila.fr>
A : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Copies :
Date : Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:10:55 +0100
Objet : [ibogaine] Tr:Réponse pour lettre BBC
———- Début du message initial ———–
De : Phisalice@aol.com
A : mallendi@voila.fr
Copies :
Date : Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:35:39 EST
Objet : Réponse pour lettre BBC
Mallendi,
Tu peux envoyer cette lettre à Hattie en réponse directe.
En fait je lui demande plus de précisions.
Philippe
Dear Hattie,
I’m a young Gabonese therapeut.I just finished a documentary for a french
channel (France 5) in Gabon about Iboga. We shooted during one month with a
camera crew. We have men and women sessions. Can you explain more precisely
what you want. You can have a contact with the french company ARTLINE Films –
00 33 1 45 55 14 19 or by mail artline@wanadoo.fr if you want to buy some
footage.
Best regards
Mallendi
____________________________________________________________
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____________________________________________________________
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From: “mallendi@voila.fr” <mallendi@voila.fr>
Subject: [ibogaine] Tr:Réponse pour lettre BBC
Date: March 5, 2002 at 5:10:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
———- Début du message initial ———–
De : Phisalice@aol.com
A : mallendi@voila.fr
Copies :
Date : Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:35:39 EST
Objet : Réponse pour lettre BBC
Mallendi,
Tu peux envoyer cette lettre à Hattie en réponse directe.
En fait je lui demande plus de précisions.
Philippe
Dear Hattie,
I’m a young Gabonese therapeut.I just finished a documentary for a french
channel (France 5) in Gabon about Iboga. We shooted during one month with a
camera crew. We have men and women sessions. Can you explain more precisely
what you want. You can have a contact with the french company ARTLINE Films –
00 33 1 45 55 14 19 or by mail artline@wanadoo.fr if you want to buy some
footage.
Best regards
Mallendi
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From: “Sir BloodThrone” <crystaldomains@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [crystaldomains@hotmail.com: A Friend…..]
Date: March 4, 2002 at 9:34:47 AM EST
To: digital@phantom.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, dross@phantom.com, jonarmst@du.edu
Yeap,coffe does the trick for me…
On your question on K and smart drugs i think i have a small piece of the puzzle.I read on Erowid,in experience vaults that a guy who tried K with hydergine and piracetam said that the combination was unsuccesful.He said that they canceled out.Hard to believe that smart drugs could oppose to such a powerful drug…but….Since nootropics are a kind of “uupers” for the brain it could negate some of the effects of ketamine…
On the other hand reading piracetam manufacturer’s insert i found something very interesting…”Piracetam should not be taken with amphetamines because it increases their effects”…Hint ,Hint.I guees it could work well with speed but what about E,this peculiar sweet amphetamine?Could it enhance the speedy effect,the “empathogenic” effect or both of them?hmmmm……Or even why not throw in the combination some 4 methyaminorex known as Intellex?
Hydergine can protect from hypoxic contitions so if you take it with E and you plan on doing nitrous for the rushes it could help you.The way that nitrous gives you “Onleys lessions” in the brain through frequent use is because of hypoxia……Hmmm,interesting isnt it?
Any ideas,thoughs,comments,screams or incoherent drug-induced mumble is welcome!
Sir bloodthrone
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From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re:BBC documentary
Date: March 3, 2002 at 2:29:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <digital@phantom.com>
Hello everyone,
I have had a call from the BBC who want to film an ibogaine session. I am
currently treating quite a few people but not any so far who are willing to
be filmed doing it. I am still unsure as to whether this is a good move as
yet, but wanted some feedback and thought that someone out there might know
of someone who would be willing to do the session filmed, with a small
discreet camera, not camera crew.
The program is part of a 10 part series on health, and addiction is one of
the episodes. The woman is very enthusiastic and seems on our side – but
then I guess they would wouldn’t they. I will meet with her to make a better
judgement, but in the mean time if you could pass the word around to see if
there are any volunteers. Obviously it would be in the UK, but the session
price of aprox 400 pounds will be covered.
Thanks
Hattie