Ibogaine List Archives – 2002-05

From: “Ashley” <ashley1980@iamwasted.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] hi!
Date: May 31, 2002 at 10:56:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi nobody answers any of my emails so far. Please reply! This place is so
dope! Awesome awesome! But I am totally lost. Where is this? I saw the
logos up at Level. They have no url!!!!! Also I know so many people who are
here but how does anyone find anyone unless you know beforehand? Is there a
local areas section plz? I would like SoBe Miami plz. And do you have
physical meets again or I’m confused, I read the articles online and don’t
get it. I’m not dumb I understand its meant to be like that but where do I
find the South Beach sections plz. Nobody can answer that!

And where do I get the logos?? I can’t find the stickers for sale anywhere.
thanks

ash

_____________________________________________
Free email with personality! Over 200 domains!
http://www.MyOwnEmail.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 31, 2002 at 7:14:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/

Is a good place to find statistics relating to
criminal activity – not specifically addiction

Brett
— “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu> wrote:
The figures I always see thrown around are something
like this

~5 million regular users of cannabis (whatever
regular means) in the U.S.
~1 million cocaine addicts (whatever “addict” means)
~300,000 heroin addicts (addict is probably pretty
easy to define in this
case)

I read contradictory statistics all of the time,
like this or that will go
up or down, but the general gist I have seen from
the zillions of stats I
have read is that drug use in general reached a low
in 1992, and climbed a
bit thereafter, but that there has pretty much been
an unchanging base of
hardcore narcotics addicts.  Remember the big heroin
scare in the early
90’s, that is was going to invade suburban bedrooms?
I’ve never seen any
statistics that point to more than half a percent of
18 year olds ever
trying dope.

It is doubtful that recreational drug use will ever
be as prevalent as it
was in the 70’s and early 80’s, although I was
seeing some scattered
evidence to the contrary just a year or two ago.  We
have a restaurant
here, one “Sacre Bleu” (aka “Sacre Blow”) that had a
mirrored bar and
people would just sit there and sniff coke at the
bar with impunity (the
greatest danger would probably be that the owner,
who managed to look
incredible despite being in her late 30’s and having
3 kids, would come
over and want some)  Felt like I was in a time
machine when I saw that,
and head shops sell little spoons and vials and
stuff like that around
here now too, which I never thought I’d see again in
my adult lifetime.

I’d like to see some “real” statistcs; these are
just vague figures that
are averages floating around in my head based on
tabulations I’ve been
keeping about this stuff since I’ve been interested
in it, which has been
for over a decade now.

At the end of the day, it seems like only a
single-digit percentage of
teenagers and young adults will ever try anything
besides marijuana,
although anyone living in a major metropolitan area
probably is baffled by
this statistic – but just remember how big the
suburbs are.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Thu, 30 May 2002, tgoodson7 wrote:

Carla:  I would love to have my Grandson detoxed
again.   However, he is in
jail right now and is slated to be sent over
to state prison about mid-summer.  However, the
Ibogaine treatment he got
has put him good position to endure his next
5 years.  He has been in and out of jail 6 or 8
times in the last 7 years
and his last 2 incarcerations were considerably
less
difficult than previously when he had to quit
“cold turkey”  because,
obviously, they certainly would not serve him his
daily
dose of Methadone.  But he had no withdrawel
symptems the last 2 times.  He
has a 5 year term but with about a year credit
for time served and probably gain time credit;  he
will still serve 3 to 3
1/2 years.  I would say he has reached the
bottom!!

It used to be that every time he was picked up and
jailed he had to quit
“Cold Turkey”.  The Sheriff had absolutely no
compasion for a “Junkey”;
nobody does!!!  And I think we have somewhere
between 5 and 15 million
addicts walking
around begging for usefull trearment.  And these
are hard core addicts.

Some one asked how do we know how many addicts
there are????   I dont know
but the government does not know either!!
My figures are at least as reliable as any figures
from the government.  And
less than 10% of the Drug Enforcement Agency
budget is used for education and rehabilitation.
They get somewhere between
50 billion dollars and 70 billion dollars for
fighting this insidious DRUG WAR!!!!  They have a
federal budget of about 20
billion dollars and the states has another
20 billion dollars to waste on this god-blessed,
glorious DRUG WAR.  And
about 75 % of their budgets are wasted on
the erradication and control of Marijuana, that
virtually harmless, inocuous
LITTLE WEED.  Never has so much been spent on
something so harmless with
less positive results in the history of man.

When you consider the contribution by F.B.I.,
I.N.S. the Customs Service,
Border Patrol, The Office of Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms, The Internal Revenue Service, and
other agencies the
government probably shells out in excess of 80
Billion
Dollars annually for The Great And Hallowed
Loosing DRUG WAR. It has lost
ground since the day it was born!!!!
And 75% of that total goes for erradicating and
controlling Marijuana.  WW
II cost less than we have wasted on Marijuana
alone!!

Pontificating is my favorite hobby; but that is
pretty obvious, isn’t it???
I hadn’t intended to write a desertation!!!!
Tommy Goodson

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for
Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

Hi Tommy.

Knowing what you do now, why not try to detox
him
another time and hope for better results and
some kind
of lessons learned?

From the stories I’ve heard from the people on
this
list, a lot of people here who have made it fell
on
their faces after their first ibogaine and it
took
them some time to manage what they’re doing now.

I’m sorry you’re going through all that. But it
doesn’t sound unusual or that different from the
story
of so many people who did finally learn enough
to keep
off heroin.

Carla B

— tgoodson7 <tgoodson7@cox.net> wrote:
Hi Carla:  Yes, my Grandson did get clean but
he
didn’t stay clean.  He is
Manic-Depressive as well
Obsessive-Compulsivewhich
is a difficult
combination to contend with.  He is also very
impulsive;  when an idea pops
into he is so
impulsive that he acts almost
instantainiously.  He
almost never analizes a
potential situation before acting!!  As you
probably
know that is a sure path to trouble.
Consequences
are always things that
his Mother has to explain to him after the
fact and
that’s a deadly habit.

I thought several times that he had crossed
the line
one too many times and
he finally did pull the final transgression.
He is
almost a little kid in
his reactions to his apprehension.

He took the Ibogaine over a period of  about 4
hours
and did very well.  He
had his last dose of Methadone about 24 hours
before he ingested the Ibogaine. He first took
a
test dose very light, (
about 100 mg.) to test for any alergic
reaction.
He took about 1000 mg. at
about 8:00 AM, about half an hour after his
test
dose.  He tolerated this
first dose very well.  Then
at about 12 noon he took his 2nd dose of about
1000
mg.  He seemed to
tolerate this fairly well and held it for more
then
4 hours.

He held it for  2 hours and  another 2 hours
before
he began to throw up.
However, since he passed the first
2 hours it was considered sufficient.  He had
retained the complete doses of
Ibogaine.  But we were able to get two
reefers (MArijuana) and they really settled
him down
and he was O.K. from
then on.  He had the typical aftermath for
several
days.  He went for 6 days
without any sign of withdrawel symptems.
However,
every day he kept talking
about getting to
the Methadone Clinic for his morning dose.
This
became an obsession with
him almost to point of desperation!!

So oan the 7th day he sneaked off and went to
the
clinic and got re-instated
and got his dose.  He had been told that if he
missed 3 days he would be automatically
cut-off from
his Methadone.  This
had become an obsession with him while
enduring the treatment period.  Well, he got
his
Methadone and was
re-instated.  But he never did have any
withdrawel
sickness.  After a couple of months he screwed
up
again and was put back in
jail.  This time he was forced to go cold-
turkey and abstain totally from anything.  He
was
very shocked to have no
withdrawel symptems while in jail.  He had
always had withdrawel sickness every time he
was
back in jail.  He has been
jailed about 6 or 7 times in the last 10
years so he has had to go cold-turkey every
time.
This was the first time
he had no withdrawel sickness..

Anyway, he got into drugs at the age of 12 and
he is
24 now.  He started on
Marijuana for a couple of years.  He heard all
the
government propanga about
the horrors of Marujuana and when he found out
that
the propaganda was all
lies he tried
some hard stuff, (Morphine) and of course, he
got
hooked right away and has
been on something ever since!!!

If the government would be honest about drugs
there
would a lot fewer people
to experiment with them.  One thing you
cant do and that is try to fool kids!!  My
Grandson
has a genius I.Q. and
was making straight A’s in the 10th grade when
he switched over and started using hard drugs.
He
simply dropped out of
school about half through the 10th grade.
Then
he started stealing anything he could get his
hands
on to get his drugs.  It
has been a wide-awake, screaming night-mare
ever since!!!!

Hope this gives you and Andrea a good
explanation.
Tommy Goodson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 31, 2002 at 1:55:00 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The figures I always see thrown around are something like this

~5 million regular users of cannabis (whatever regular means) in the U.S.
~1 million cocaine addicts (whatever “addict” means)
~300,000 heroin addicts (addict is probably pretty easy to define in this
case)

I read contradictory statistics all of the time, like this or that will go
up or down, but the general gist I have seen from the zillions of stats I
have read is that drug use in general reached a low in 1992, and climbed a
bit thereafter, but that there has pretty much been an unchanging base of
hardcore narcotics addicts.  Remember the big heroin scare in the early
90’s, that is was going to invade suburban bedrooms?  I’ve never seen any
statistics that point to more than half a percent of 18 year olds ever
trying dope.

It is doubtful that recreational drug use will ever be as prevalent as it
was in the 70’s and early 80’s, although I was seeing some scattered
evidence to the contrary just a year or two ago.  We have a restaurant
here, one “Sacre Bleu” (aka “Sacre Blow”) that had a mirrored bar and
people would just sit there and sniff coke at the bar with impunity (the
greatest danger would probably be that the owner, who managed to look
incredible despite being in her late 30’s and having 3 kids, would come
over and want some)  Felt like I was in a time machine when I saw that,
and head shops sell little spoons and vials and stuff like that around
here now too, which I never thought I’d see again in my adult lifetime.

I’d like to see some “real” statistcs; these are just vague figures that
are averages floating around in my head based on tabulations I’ve been
keeping about this stuff since I’ve been interested in it, which has been
for over a decade now.

At the end of the day, it seems like only a single-digit percentage of
teenagers and young adults will ever try anything besides marijuana,
although anyone living in a major metropolitan area probably is baffled by
this statistic – but just remember how big the suburbs are.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Thu, 30 May 2002, tgoodson7 wrote:

Carla:  I would love to have my Grandson detoxed again.   However, he is in
jail right now and is slated to be sent over
to state prison about mid-summer.  However, the Ibogaine treatment he got
has put him good position to endure his next
5 years.  He has been in and out of jail 6 or 8 times in the last 7 years
and his last 2 incarcerations were considerably less
difficult than previously when he had to quit “cold turkey”  because,
obviously, they certainly would not serve him his daily
dose of Methadone.  But he had no withdrawel symptems the last 2 times.  He
has a 5 year term but with about a year credit
for time served and probably gain time credit;  he will still serve 3 to 3
1/2 years.  I would say he has reached the bottom!!

It used to be that every time he was picked up and jailed he had to quit
“Cold Turkey”.  The Sheriff had absolutely no compasion for a “Junkey”;
nobody does!!!  And I think we have somewhere between 5 and 15 million
addicts walking
around begging for usefull trearment.  And these are hard core addicts.

Some one asked how do we know how many addicts there are????   I dont know
but the government does not know either!!
My figures are at least as reliable as any figures from the government.  And
less than 10% of the Drug Enforcement Agency
budget is used for education and rehabilitation.  They get somewhere between
50 billion dollars and 70 billion dollars for
fighting this insidious DRUG WAR!!!!  They have a federal budget of about 20
billion dollars and the states has another
20 billion dollars to waste on this god-blessed, glorious DRUG WAR.  And
about 75 % of their budgets are wasted on
the erradication and control of Marijuana, that virtually harmless, inocuous
LITTLE WEED.  Never has so much been spent on something so harmless with
less positive results in the history of man.

When you consider the contribution by F.B.I., I.N.S. the Customs Service,
Border Patrol, The Office of Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms, The Internal Revenue Service, and other agencies the
government probably shells out in excess of 80 Billion
Dollars annually for The Great And Hallowed Loosing DRUG WAR. It has lost
ground since the day it was born!!!!
And 75% of that total goes for erradicating and controlling Marijuana.  WW
II cost less than we have wasted on Marijuana
alone!!

Pontificating is my favorite hobby; but that is pretty obvious, isn’t it???
I hadn’t intended to write a desertation!!!!
Tommy Goodson

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

Hi Tommy.

Knowing what you do now, why not try to detox him
another time and hope for better results and some kind
of lessons learned?

From the stories I’ve heard from the people on this
list, a lot of people here who have made it fell on
their faces after their first ibogaine and it took
them some time to manage what they’re doing now.

I’m sorry you’re going through all that. But it
doesn’t sound unusual or that different from the story
of so many people who did finally learn enough to keep
off heroin.

Carla B

— tgoodson7 <tgoodson7@cox.net> wrote:
Hi Carla:  Yes, my Grandson did get clean but he
didn’t stay clean.  He is
Manic-Depressive as well Obsessive-Compulsivewhich
is a difficult
combination to contend with.  He is also very
impulsive;  when an idea pops
into he is so
impulsive that he acts almost instantainiously.  He
almost never analizes a
potential situation before acting!!  As you probably
know that is a sure path to trouble.  Consequences
are always things that
his Mother has to explain to him after the fact and
that’s a deadly habit.

I thought several times that he had crossed the line
one too many times and
he finally did pull the final transgression.  He is
almost a little kid in
his reactions to his apprehension.

He took the Ibogaine over a period of  about 4 hours
and did very well.  He
had his last dose of Methadone about 24 hours
before he ingested the Ibogaine. He first took a
test dose very light, (
about 100 mg.) to test for any alergic reaction.
He took about 1000 mg. at
about 8:00 AM, about half an hour after his test
dose.  He tolerated this
first dose very well.  Then
at about 12 noon he took his 2nd dose of about 1000
mg.  He seemed to
tolerate this fairly well and held it for more then
4 hours.

He held it for  2 hours and  another 2 hours before
he began to throw up.
However, since he passed the first
2 hours it was considered sufficient.  He had
retained the complete doses of
Ibogaine.  But we were able to get two
reefers (MArijuana) and they really settled him down
and he was O.K. from
then on.  He had the typical aftermath for several
days.  He went for 6 days
without any sign of withdrawel symptems.  However,
every day he kept talking
about getting to
the Methadone Clinic for his morning dose.   This
became an obsession with
him almost to point of desperation!!

So oan the 7th day he sneaked off and went to the
clinic and got re-instated
and got his dose.  He had been told that if he
missed 3 days he would be automatically cut-off from
his Methadone.  This
had become an obsession with him while
enduring the treatment period.  Well, he got his
Methadone and was
re-instated.  But he never did have any withdrawel
sickness.  After a couple of months he screwed up
again and was put back in
jail.  This time he was forced to go cold-
turkey and abstain totally from anything.  He was
very shocked to have no
withdrawel symptems while in jail.  He had
always had withdrawel sickness every time he was
back in jail.  He has been
jailed about 6 or 7 times in the last 10
years so he has had to go cold-turkey every time.
This was the first time
he had no withdrawel sickness..

Anyway, he got into drugs at the age of 12 and he is
24 now.  He started on
Marijuana for a couple of years.  He heard all the
government propanga about
the horrors of Marujuana and when he found out that
the propaganda was all
lies he tried
some hard stuff, (Morphine) and of course, he got
hooked right away and has
been on something ever since!!!

If the government would be honest about drugs there
would a lot fewer people
to experiment with them.  One thing you
cant do and that is try to fool kids!!  My Grandson
has a genius I.Q. and
was making straight A’s in the 10th grade when
he switched over and started using hard drugs.  He
simply dropped out of
school about half through the 10th grade.  Then
he started stealing anything he could get his hands
on to get his drugs.  It
has been a wide-awake, screaming night-mare
ever since!!!!

Hope this gives you and Andrea a good explanation.
Tommy Goodson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: A Brief Message Type Thing…
Date: May 31, 2002 at 1:47:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I realize a lot of you have signed up here who are specifically interested
in psychedelics/entheogens, more as spiritual reintegration tools; and
don’t wanna get 35 messages a day of Junkie War Stories, or in-depth
analysis of what ibogaine does for heroin addiction.

If Vox is still not open within a week or so — and I mean, it really
COULD be . . . but . . . — I will just start an entheogens list, which
focuses more on that, than the ever-elusive quest to stop bangin’ dope or
smoking crack; which I fully understand is of little interest to many
people.

If you would like to get OFF this list, the instructions are contained in
the headers of every single message which is sent out.  Or, to phrase it
another way:  ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com

If you want to get OFF this list AND have your name saved into a file,
which is automagically added to the entheogen list once it lights up,
lemme know (send email), and I will do that.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] nakills
Date: May 31, 2002 at 1:40:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Fri, May 31, 2002 at 09:52:46AM -0700], [vector6@space.com] wrote:

| Not to ask a dumb question but what happened to the NA Kills banner? I
| thought it looked cool and now it’s gone. Did people hassle you?

No, if anybody did hassle me about it, then it prolly would still be
there…  I was just cranky, that dude was a fuckhead — who in all
probability will go right back to sending out email to people explaining
how I am One of The Lost, on methadone, and probably bangin’ dope.  But…
it really isn’t my goal to harass anyone.  If someone looks at mINDvOX and
freaks, oh well…  It’s All You meng, and whatever you’re projecting or
repressing.

However, many of my friends ARE in some 12-step program or another,
various people on this list are having positive results with it; and
basically if someone who is working the steps — or trying to — clicks on
Vox, they’re interested in ibogaine, and that pops up in their face…  It
might make them feel less than good.  I have no desire to alienate anyone,
nor challenge whatever is working for them, so…  all I’m doing is the
same thing THEY, THEM and THOSE PEOPLE do, thus…  why bother, let it go.

I just threw it into Links under Harm Reduction <shrug>.

Patrick

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] nakills
Date: May 31, 2002 at 12:52:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Not to ask a dumb question but what happened to the NA Kills banner? I thought it looked cool and now it’s gone. Did people hassle you? .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 31, 2002 at 12:11:31 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Rick,

it seems to me that you’re in a great position to MAKE Ibogaine a bit more mainstream! Get your co-workers interested, all of you should demand Ibogaine instead of Meth, and (if nothing else) you’ll hit main news ;-))

No, really, print some Ibogaine experiences from the net and give them to your co-workers, or just leave them somewhere people can read them…

It’s pitty you live in a such beautiful country where only your government knows what is the best for people, so it puts Ibogaine on Schedule1 :-((
(this is in correlation with recent discussion about people who know what is the best for other people)

Marko

At 15:16 31.5.2002, you wrote:
Read about it in some newsletter about 2-3 years ago.  Read some more on
erowid. Then had a client who wanted to know what I’d heard, so I
started looking into it at greater  length.  I haven’t really discussed
it with my co-workers since it’s just not a realistic treatment option
at this point for most patients here.  Maybe if it ever gets a bit more
mainstream.  I think most of my co-workers would look upon it favorably.

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] reccomendations
Date: May 31, 2002 at 11:06:09 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Christina,

Good of you to ask. 2 things you need to know about
the “really crazy stuff” is that every addict is
different and everyone responds to ibogaine
differently – even the same person on a different day
will.  My personal opinion is to have treatment (or
guide) by someone who has taken ibogaine themselves. I
am pretty sure Dr. Mash hasn’t (and if she did
wouldn’t tell you) and while it is not my style (I
hate hospitals) I am sure she would give good
treatment, certainly from a medical end, Her treatment
would be better (IMO of course) and more needed for
someone who needs TREATMENT. She treats with ibogaine
as a detox plus 2 weeks inpatient (as I remember) in a
treatment program. People (addicts) who are in more
need of this kind of treatment would be patients who
have never been through treatment, never gotten clean.
In my case it would have been unnecessary, I knew
exactly what to do and how to do it once I broke the
addiction cycle. So I think one kind of treatment for
one kind of person/patient is better than another.
There is someone in the Netherlands (HI SARA) who is
the very compassionate, knowlegable, sure but from
what perspective? Mash knows more about medicine for
sure as do other MD’s doing treatment, on the other
hand she  (Sara) knows more about herbal treatment and
how to get into ones self/spirit. People do it in
hotel rooms across (inside) and around (outside) and
it works out fine for some, some “do it themselves”
and that works too. If I were to need treatment I
would seek out an experienced guide who as you say is
“most comapssionate knowledgable, ethical, etc.”,
there are certainly those who lack in those abilities
doing treatments”. MY pick would be Sara unless I
found someone I trusted closer to the US and I don’t
like medical environments (or the expense, especially
considering it may take more than one shot). Eric Taub
does treatments (or arranges them) and is quite
experienced, will spend the time and can arrange
treatment in a medical environment – far as I know, we
have not had much contact lately. It depends on you
largely, if you are very modest (hey, I go get naked
on a public beach and it bothers me about as much as
it would a 2 year old)it may be better to have a woman
treat you (or a medical environment) as being on
ibogaine is not a modest situation by its nature.
Someone has to change you if/when you puke on
yourself, help you to the bathroom (almost certainly
if you need to go) or talk to you when you have an
“emotional upheaval” (as my Finacee calls it)…
MY other option would be to go off somewhere, say the
Bahamas, take my Fiancee and just do it – which in
reality would be my absolute first pick since it is
viable option for me, she knows what to do, has taken
ibogaine, so have I, she sat me, I sat her (not for
addiction)… but that is me. If you choose a guide
you may not be able to meet the person ahead of time
(or even speak), you need to feel comfortable meeting
someone somewhere and they do need to be trustworthy.

And then sometimes there is just not getting through.
Addicts are difficult folks, I hear stories all the
time about what that nasty guide did or the ibogaine
didn’t work (cause it ain’t no magic bullet honey, you
gotta do your part), that they were in full blown
withdrawal, as if they didn’t take any ibo except they
were being drug through hell the whole time… Some of
it may be true, most of it is created in their heads
(so they can get high, it is the guides fault, the
ibogaine’s fault…). Be ready to GIVE IT UP, if you
ain’t ready, don’t do the work, your chances are poor
with any treatment method, ibogaine included. Oh, and
that post-ibogaine period (I call the IBO-Glow) when
the world is wonderful, the butterflys are glorious,
you are all ahhhh, fresh air and sunshine and you feel
several levels above the spirituality of Buddah (if
that is what happens), it passes, do the work when you
have the chance and don’t take it for granted that all
is well. Be ready to take a 2nd treatment if needed,
or maybe if not needed… I personally would (did).

Then you can get into Indra vs ibogaine HCL and that
is another story. If I had my choice of one over the
other for addiction it would be HCL (not that indra
doesn’t work, it certainly does), if it was for some
kind of spiritual experimentation, it would be Indra,
if I could mix the 2 I would for either. They are
somewhat different creatures.  But then, I know too
much and people who know too much make bad patients…

Luck,
Brett

— Christina Kester <poppy_1974@hotmail.com> wrote:
for those of you who have detoxed thru someone in
the US, who did you detox
with and who do you reccommend? what kind of
reputations do the various
providers of this service have?(i don’t want to name
any specific names)
i’ve heard some really crazy stuff about some of the
people and just want to
know who’s the best, most comapssionate,
knowledgable, ethical, etc.
thanks so much
christina

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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 31, 2002 at 9:21:20 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

pleased to meet you.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs

Read about it in some newsletter about 2-3 years ago.  Read some more on
erowid. Then had a client who wanted to know what I’d heard, so I
started looking into it at greater  length.  I haven’t really discussed
it with my co-workers since it’s just not a realistic treatment option
at this point for most patients here.  Maybe if it ever gets a bit more
mainstream.  I think most of my co-workers would look upon it favorably.
They’ve been in the field for a long enough time to see that there’s
more than one way to skin cats.  I usually bring it up every few months
in one of my groups, or in individual sessions.  I’ll often discuss it
with individuals who just don’t seem to be able to make it work with
methadone or the cold turkey and NA approach.  Unfortunately, many, if
not most, counselors are victims of group-think and are fairly well
indoctrinated into any number of biases.  I’m still shocked at SA
counselors and other medical professionals who are so down on methadone.
One thing I’ve learned is that most people tend to be sheep and really
don’t think for themselves.  Reading, researching, questioning, and
thinking are all hard work…you have to be willing to question your own
sacred cows and even get rid of long-standing beliefs, opinions, and
ideas…and, dare I say, be able to admit, hey, I was wrong.  I guess
I’m just one of those good-hearted, compassionate counselors that wants
to see people get better, however that can be accomplished.  The more
educated I have become, the more I have realized how little I know.  It
is a great arrogance to hold forth and say “this is the only way,”
because it worked for me, and everybody else I listen to says so.
…and sometimes, I’m wrong, and I need to listen to what the other
people say.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

>>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 05/31/02 08:25AM >>>
How’d you hear about ibogaine? Have you discussed it with your
coworkers? Any of your clients? What’ve the reaction been if you have?
I’ve a friend here in NYC who works as a methadone counselor. (Hi Laura,
receiving a closed copy of this) She doesn’t seem to like it a heck of a
lot, (as near as I can tell) but I’m now going to have to ask her what
she thinks about this, if she’s heard of ibogaine and what her thoughts
are on this kind of thing. I imagine that many methadone counselors
would not be adverse to something like ibogaine as they are already on
the harm reduction trip, and already utilize alternative substances to
interrupt dope abuse. The meth clinic owners might not be so thrilled,
but the counselors who are in their line of work for what I consider
constructive reasons, i.e. compassion, caring for others, simple good
heartedness, that kind of thing, I would think they’d at least be open
to the possibilities of ibogaine.

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 31, 2002 at 9:16:01 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Read about it in some newsletter about 2-3 years ago.  Read some more on
erowid. Then had a client who wanted to know what I’d heard, so I
started looking into it at greater  length.  I haven’t really discussed
it with my co-workers since it’s just not a realistic treatment option
at this point for most patients here.  Maybe if it ever gets a bit more
mainstream.  I think most of my co-workers would look upon it favorably.
They’ve been in the field for a long enough time to see that there’s
more than one way to skin cats.  I usually bring it up every few months
in one of my groups, or in individual sessions.  I’ll often discuss it
with individuals who just don’t seem to be able to make it work with
methadone or the cold turkey and NA approach.  Unfortunately, many, if
not most, counselors are victims of group-think and are fairly well
indoctrinated into any number of biases.  I’m still shocked at SA
counselors and other medical professionals who are so down on methadone.
One thing I’ve learned is that most people tend to be sheep and really
don’t think for themselves.  Reading, researching, questioning, and
thinking are all hard work…you have to be willing to question your own
sacred cows and even get rid of long-standing beliefs, opinions, and
ideas…and, dare I say, be able to admit, hey, I was wrong.  I guess
I’m just one of those good-hearted, compassionate counselors that wants
to see people get better, however that can be accomplished.  The more
educated I have become, the more I have realized how little I know.  It
is a great arrogance to hold forth and say “this is the only way,”
because it worked for me, and everybody else I listen to says so.
…and sometimes, I’m wrong, and I need to listen to what the other
people say.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 05/31/02 08:25AM >>>
How’d you hear about ibogaine? Have you discussed it with your
coworkers? Any of your clients? What’ve the reaction been if you have?
I’ve a friend here in NYC who works as a methadone counselor. (Hi Laura,
receiving a closed copy of this) She doesn’t seem to like it a heck of a
lot, (as near as I can tell) but I’m now going to have to ask her what
she thinks about this, if she’s heard of ibogaine and what her thoughts
are on this kind of thing. I imagine that many methadone counselors
would not be adverse to something like ibogaine as they are already on
the harm reduction trip, and already utilize alternative substances to
interrupt dope abuse. The meth clinic owners might not be so thrilled,
but the counselors who are in their line of work for what I consider
constructive reasons, i.e. compassion, caring for others, simple good
heartedness, that kind of thing, I would think they’d at least be open
to the possibilities of ibogaine.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 31, 2002 at 8:25:59 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>For the most part, I just think
that drug abuse is a big waste of time…like sitting on one screen on
PS2 and refusing to move forward, then your time runs out…game over. <

Hey Rick,
What a great analogy. Of course, I personally differentiate between drug use and drug abuse, (and play PC games rather than PS2) but still, the above is such a good comparison in this day and age.
How’d you hear about ibogaine? Have you discussed it with your coworkers? Any of your clients? What’ve the reaction been if you have? I’ve a friend here in NYC who works as a methadone counselor. (Hi Laura, receiving a closed copy of this) She doesn’t seem to like it a heck of a lot, (as near as I can tell) but I’m now going to have to ask her what she thinks about this, if she’s heard of ibogaine and what her thoughts are on this kind of thing. I imagine that many methadone counselors would not be adverse to something like ibogaine as they are already on the harm reduction trip, and already utilize alternative substances to interrupt dope abuse. The meth clinic owners might not be so thrilled, but the counselors who are in their line of work for what I consider constructive reasons, i.e. compassion, caring for others, simple good heartedness, that kind of thing, I would think they’d at least be open to the possibilities of ibogaine.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs

All my business:
Various and assorted drugs for about 10 years.  Definitely addicted and
tried to quit for a couple of years.  Mainly pot, alcohol,
hallucinogens, and a plethora of “I’ll take whatever I can get my hands
on because I don’t have anything else.”  Thankfully, no opiate
addiction, but of course there was the occasional abuse of RX opiates.
Once I was “sick and tired…” I “got saved,” then got a real life.
This coincided with completing college.  Got a job as a drug counselor.
Got sick of that, went back to school and got my Master’s degree.
Strangely, I actually wanted to get back into the SA field. I was just
burnt out after my first tour of duty.  Got a job at a methadone clinic
where I’ve been for the past 5-6 years.  Working with opiate addiction
is definitely the most stressful job I’ve ever had, but I found that I
thrive on chaos and change.  I started getting really interested in
ibogaine about a year or so ago in terms of its possibilities for
treating opiate dependence.

My philosophy is, “whatever it is, if it works, work it,” and keep
growing emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, etc.  One answer
doesn’t necessarily fit all, but there are some answers that tend to be
better answers for the most people.  For the most part, I just think
that drug abuse is a big waste of time…like sitting on one screen on
PS2 and refusing to move forward, then your time runs out…game over.
A number of personal experiences and positive relationships, as well as
the daily reminder by the patients I work with, reminds me that the game
costs everything to play, you’ve got one life, and no replays, so it’s
up to me to decide what is truly most important and to make the smart
choices to rack up the “points” that, to me, equals winning.  After 14
years of working “a program,” so to speak, I’m real comfortable in my
own skin and life is much more interesting without using drugs.  I guess
that’s about it.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 31, 2002 at 6:51:56 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All my business:
Various and assorted drugs for about 10 years.  Definitely addicted and
tried to quit for a couple of years.  Mainly pot, alcohol,
hallucinogens, and a plethora of “I’ll take whatever I can get my hands
on because I don’t have anything else.”  Thankfully, no opiate
addiction, but of course there was the occasional abuse of RX opiates.
Once I was “sick and tired…” I “got saved,” then got a real life.
This coincided with completing college.  Got a job as a drug counselor.
Got sick of that, went back to school and got my Master’s degree.
Strangely, I actually wanted to get back into the SA field. I was just
burnt out after my first tour of duty.  Got a job at a methadone clinic
where I’ve been for the past 5-6 years.  Working with opiate addiction
is definitely the most stressful job I’ve ever had, but I found that I
thrive on chaos and change.  I started getting really interested in
ibogaine about a year or so ago in terms of its possibilities for
treating opiate dependence.

My philosophy is, “whatever it is, if it works, work it,” and keep
growing emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, etc.  One answer
doesn’t necessarily fit all, but there are some answers that tend to be
better answers for the most people.  For the most part, I just think
that drug abuse is a big waste of time…like sitting on one screen on
PS2 and refusing to move forward, then your time runs out…game over.
A number of personal experiences and positive relationships, as well as
the daily reminder by the patients I work with, reminds me that the game
costs everything to play, you’ve got one life, and no replays, so it’s
up to me to decide what is truly most important and to make the smart
choices to rack up the “points” that, to me, equals winning.  After 14
years of working “a program,” so to speak, I’m real comfortable in my
own skin and life is much more interesting without using drugs.  I guess
that’s about it.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “Christina Kester” <poppy_1974@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] reccomendations
Date: May 31, 2002 at 12:29:43 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

for those of you who have detoxed thru someone in the US, who did you detox with and who do you reccommend? what kind of reputations do the various providers of this service have?(i don’t want to name any specific names)
i’ve heard some really crazy stuff about some of the people and just want to know who’s the best, most comapssionate, knowledgable, ethical, etc.
thanks so much
christina

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] For What Its Worth
Date: May 30, 2002 at 7:47:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In light of the on-going thread regarding 12 steps, the “disease” (oooh,
scary!) and other related topics including but not limited to Entheogens,
personal opinions and experiences….

I have developed a Non-Belief in the whole “Disease” concept.

I prefer to refer

to it

as

Dis-Ease

That unmistakable feeling of not being comfortable in my own skin that
propelled me [for one reason or another] into hArD cOrE drug consumption.

NOR is any addict powerless. while actively using, yeah… you are powerless.
But once you stop using and make a choice not to use, you have gained power.
the context of that first step is PAST TENSE (“we admitted we WERE powerless
over our addiction and our lives HAD become unmanagable”)

futhermore [lest i digress into rambling] in my most humble of opinions, I do
NOT view the sacramental use of entheogens [by the ex-addict] to be a RELAPSE.
[besides its your own karma if you use sacred medicines as recreational highs]
Mr. Bill (as in Bill W.) used LSD while he was “in recovery” and it was never
classified as a “relapse”. Quite the contrare. Now this is a “dodgy” [thanks
Nick for that term, first heard in on Radio EXP!?&%] subject for 12 steppers,
and working with the 12 steps myself the whole entheogen concept can be a
mindfuck if I buy into the whole “complete and total abstinence except
caffeine, nicotine and sugar” routine. But I don’t. I believe in healing.
Especially in Divine Healing Plant Medicines. Most especially them, for without
them I’d be still standing in line at the Methadone clinic, convincing myself
of god knows what, pissing in a bottle at random so I can qualify to take home
a few doses for the weekend. Word.

12 steps are a great resource but there are MANY things aside from them that
are highly helpful to folks like us.

shit. I rambled. Apologies. Jeez, as a good friend sez its all in your head.

you may go now.

-Gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Matt O’Connor <rosetti3@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 30, 2002 at 7:34:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Peptol Bismol binge? Egad, that sounds like loads
of fun. Whatever possessed
you? Pepto Bismal does not get one high, to the
best of my knowledge. ;-)))
Peace,
Preston

Shhh its a secret. if you mix it with the correct
mdma uptake inhibitor and
read 20 pages of that science fiction type guy Mr.
Dick while sitting in the
lotus position and channeling the golden light thru
your third eye you will
feel something.

pass the pepto!

_______________________________________Dude!

That was wicked funny!

Matt O’Connor

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “tgoodson7” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 30, 2002 at 7:31:53 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla:  I would love to have my Grandson detoxed again.   However, he is in
jail right now and is slated to be sent over
to state prison about mid-summer.  However, the Ibogaine treatment he got
has put him good position to endure his next
5 years.  He has been in and out of jail 6 or 8 times in the last 7 years
and his last 2 incarcerations were considerably less
difficult than previously when he had to quit “cold turkey”  because,
obviously, they certainly would not serve him his daily
dose of Methadone.  But he had no withdrawel symptems the last 2 times.  He
has a 5 year term but with about a year credit
for time served and probably gain time credit;  he will still serve 3 to 3
1/2 years.  I would say he has reached the bottom!!

It used to be that every time he was picked up and jailed he had to quit
“Cold Turkey”.  The Sheriff had absolutely no compasion for a “Junkey”;
nobody does!!!  And I think we have somewhere between 5 and 15 million
addicts walking
around begging for usefull trearment.  And these are hard core addicts.

Some one asked how do we know how many addicts there are????   I dont know
but the government does not know either!!
My figures are at least as reliable as any figures from the government.  And
less than 10% of the Drug Enforcement Agency
budget is used for education and rehabilitation.  They get somewhere between
50 billion dollars and 70 billion dollars for
fighting this insidious DRUG WAR!!!!  They have a federal budget of about 20
billion dollars and the states has another
20 billion dollars to waste on this god-blessed, glorious DRUG WAR.  And
about 75 % of their budgets are wasted on
the erradication and control of Marijuana, that virtually harmless, inocuous
LITTLE WEED.  Never has so much been spent on something so harmless with
less positive results in the history of man.

When you consider the contribution by F.B.I., I.N.S. the Customs Service,
Border Patrol, The Office of Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms, The Internal Revenue Service, and other agencies the
government probably shells out in excess of 80 Billion
Dollars annually for The Great And Hallowed Loosing DRUG WAR. It has lost
ground since the day it was born!!!!
And 75% of that total goes for erradicating and controlling Marijuana.  WW
II cost less than we have wasted on Marijuana
alone!!

Pontificating is my favorite hobby; but that is pretty obvious, isn’t it???
I hadn’t intended to write a desertation!!!!
Tommy Goodson

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

Hi Tommy.

Knowing what you do now, why not try to detox him
another time and hope for better results and some kind
of lessons learned?

From the stories I’ve heard from the people on this
list, a lot of people here who have made it fell on
their faces after their first ibogaine and it took
them some time to manage what they’re doing now.

I’m sorry you’re going through all that. But it
doesn’t sound unusual or that different from the story
of so many people who did finally learn enough to keep
off heroin.

Carla B

— tgoodson7 <tgoodson7@cox.net> wrote:
Hi Carla:  Yes, my Grandson did get clean but he
didn’t stay clean.  He is
Manic-Depressive as well Obsessive-Compulsivewhich
is a difficult
combination to contend with.  He is also very
impulsive;  when an idea pops
into he is so
impulsive that he acts almost instantainiously.  He
almost never analizes a
potential situation before acting!!  As you probably
know that is a sure path to trouble.  Consequences
are always things that
his Mother has to explain to him after the fact and
that’s a deadly habit.

I thought several times that he had crossed the line
one too many times and
he finally did pull the final transgression.  He is
almost a little kid in
his reactions to his apprehension.

He took the Ibogaine over a period of  about 4 hours
and did very well.  He
had his last dose of Methadone about 24 hours
before he ingested the Ibogaine. He first took a
test dose very light, (
about 100 mg.) to test for any alergic reaction.
He took about 1000 mg. at
about 8:00 AM, about half an hour after his test
dose.  He tolerated this
first dose very well.  Then
at about 12 noon he took his 2nd dose of about 1000
mg.  He seemed to
tolerate this fairly well and held it for more then
4 hours.

He held it for  2 hours and  another 2 hours before
he began to throw up.
However, since he passed the first
2 hours it was considered sufficient.  He had
retained the complete doses of
Ibogaine.  But we were able to get two
reefers (MArijuana) and they really settled him down
and he was O.K. from
then on.  He had the typical aftermath for several
days.  He went for 6 days
without any sign of withdrawel symptems.  However,
every day he kept talking
about getting to
the Methadone Clinic for his morning dose.   This
became an obsession with
him almost to point of desperation!!

So oan the 7th day he sneaked off and went to the
clinic and got re-instated
and got his dose.  He had been told that if he
missed 3 days he would be automatically cut-off from
his Methadone.  This
had become an obsession with him while
enduring the treatment period.  Well, he got his
Methadone and was
re-instated.  But he never did have any withdrawel
sickness.  After a couple of months he screwed up
again and was put back in
jail.  This time he was forced to go cold-
turkey and abstain totally from anything.  He was
very shocked to have no
withdrawel symptems while in jail.  He had
always had withdrawel sickness every time he was
back in jail.  He has been
jailed about 6 or 7 times in the last 10
years so he has had to go cold-turkey every time.
This was the first time
he had no withdrawel sickness..

Anyway, he got into drugs at the age of 12 and he is
24 now.  He started on
Marijuana for a couple of years.  He heard all the
government propanga about
the horrors of Marujuana and when he found out that
the propaganda was all
lies he tried
some hard stuff, (Morphine) and of course, he got
hooked right away and has
been on something ever since!!!

If the government would be honest about drugs there
would a lot fewer people
to experiment with them.  One thing you
cant do and that is try to fool kids!!  My Grandson
has a genius I.Q. and
was making straight A’s in the 10th grade when
he switched over and started using hard drugs.  He
simply dropped out of
school about half through the 10th grade.  Then
he started stealing anything he could get his hands
on to get his drugs.  It
has been a wide-awake, screaming night-mare
ever since!!!!

Hope this gives you and Andrea a good explanation.
Tommy Goodson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] thanks
Date: May 30, 2002 at 7:13:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
<AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Yep, there’s some truth in what you say, but if
Patrick did lapse, what
difference would it make to Ibogaine REALLY?
Most of us f lapse for crying out loud; (and I’m
sure all, or most of us)
would not party if anyone of us lapsed, let alone
PK.

I think it meant the NA and AA people. That person who
wrote the hate mail sure would.

Carrie, I get the feeling yu hold some folk up in
such high esteem, it would
be awful 4 u and them if they fell.

Hi, I didn’t write that message!

But I agree with a lot of it. It is all really simple
when I think about it. It is exactly what the NA and
AA people say attraction not promotion.

I liked what Patrick wrote, I loved mindvox, I signed
up to this list and am happy I did. What’s attractive
about it the most is freedom. Patrick is ok a little
crazy maybe a lot crazy but he told everyone to stick
it and did it his way. I don’t think I could ever deal
with the kind of pressure he has even if he doesn’t
see it that way. But it’s more like that he exists and
can do that and go from almost dead to all this and
hold it together. That’s awesome. And this list is the
same thing, there are soooooooooooo many cool people
here who have gotten clean in all kinds of ways or
have done more things which the NA and AA people say
are impossible and stepped back from hard drug
addiction to smoking pot and enjoying life.

What’s so attractive about all of it is freedom! And
everyone is doing things in their own way somehow even
if they do some of the same things and they have lives
again, not some series of only going to meetings and
therapy and working the steps and I’m sorry, but I
have not once yet found a group that would ever let me
take what I found useful and leave the rest. It has
always been do exactly what we do or you will die.
Said exactly that way too.

That never helped me at all. It only made me feel bad
and I was already feeling bad in the first place.

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 30, 2002 at 7:09:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

Yo, that’s wrong too.  The REAL first step is to immediately establish a
strong codependence on someone else of the opposite sex.  No worries, yo
baby, yo baby, yo baby, yo…  I will SAVE YOU from yourself!  I’ve got
whatchoo want!

Unfortunately, there’s a little problem with that…  2 weeks later, once
the eXciting newness of the situation has faded a little, it spins right
around to, “Look, that wasn’t me, that was my dick…  The problem is,
you’re Completely Fucking Crazy, Annoying beyond belief, and I am FILLED
with the URGE to STRANGLE you…  So, like, go to a meeting and share.”

and then the best part is you can justify all your devious mal-intent on the
DIS-EASE!!!

moohahahahahah!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 30, 2002 at 6:39:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rick

Good points.

“.  So for the the past 10 years or so, I have
drank on occasion.  Most often, this amounts to 1-2
beers, or glasses…”

And I can’t drink (or else…), I can take pain meds
with no problem (except I HATE THEM!!!!) and I could
smoke pot (if I were to do such a thing, but that
would be illegal) without it being the morning, noon
and  nighty-night-night pot head I once was – too bad,
I hear it is great for nausea (from the headaches I
get…).  And there in lies the issue. Addicts IN
ADDICTION (not that I am not an addict) usually have
no clue what they can and cannot do – except for what
their addiction tells them and what the recovery
community tells them… I know people who are (more or
less recovered) addicts that toke now and again or
even daily, drink or do other things, so what if they
are leading normal lives (well, so what anyway it but
that is another story). I also know addicts DEEP in
addiction without the use of drugs or alcohol. I want
to scream at some of them to go use already, you are
better off (they are in misery). One part about NA (or
whatever A) I don’t care for is that something is
wrong with me if I don’t follow their program the way
they approve of (even if it isn’t in the Big Book and
they made it up…), and here I am far healthier than
many “living the program”. What matters is what
matters. It don’t matter to you if you had a drink or
not, if they disappeared (except oh, well shucks) from
the face of the earth it would be fine. Same with me
with non-alcoholic beer  which is a real “no-no” in
recovery according to NA/AA and with the exception of
use for pain, couldn’t care less if all the dope (pain
killers, vali-yum-yum’s or whatever) disappeared  –
truth, even with the pain I could do without them but
it does get dangerous as I start to want to shut the
world off with alcohol… No, many can’t tinker around
with any drugs and I am pretty sure the NA type
indoctrination that says “oops, you used, RELAPSE,
start ALLLLllllll over again…” kind of means, “well,
s..t! I did it, may as well do it right while I am
here, after all I am back at being a ZERO…” has made
it worse for the addict who “slipped”. Problem is it
is their club and unless you go by their rules you
can’t be a member or you have to keep certain things
to yourself. This is unfortunate for many needing
support or have real-life issues (can you imagine me
bring up IBOGAINE in an NA meeting??? – RELAPSE,
RELAPSE, IT IS A DRUG, ACID, you are trading one drug
for another, yadda yadda yadda). It threatens them
that I can take pain meds, or you can drink, therefore
something is wrong with me, I am in relapse according
to them. At best all they can say is “it is prescribed
so take it that way and you are OK” – which if I took
meds as “prescribed” I would be in serious trouble,
one every 6 hours for pain, uh huh. These poor kids
who have some medical procedure do just that (as
prescribed) and wind up swallowing the whole bottle, 1
every 6 hours till they wack out their systems and
then really relapse. I see it all the time.

Does anyone know how to turn ibogaine OFF (or down) so
I can take pain meds (opiates) again without feeling
so awfully disgusting??? It is way too much of a good
thing. Maybe a few hundred mg’s of methadone for 6
months or so will do the trick, bet I can find a doc
who will do just that…

OOps, HI, glad you can join us – been having some
issues thrown up and am venting.

Question, why are you here on the ibo list, didn’t see
any ibo or current drug use in your bio. Obviously ibo
curiosity of some sort… Friend, family,
professionally, come on the requirement for membership
to the ibo list is you have to tell us your personal
business!

Brett

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Been lurking for a while…first time poster here,
so Howdy!

I didn’t do the 12-step thing.  After a 10 year
career of using I
“pretty much” quit everything completely.  My
primary “program” was that
I “got saved,” and then cut off old relationships
and developed new
ones.  A few months clean and I had 2-3 beers and
knew for myself that I
was starting to cross the line and could easily tip
right on over into
another whacky adventure, so I completely swore off.
No drugs. No
alcohol.  But I did have to replace them with a
number of things.  Got
heavy into movies, video games, playing chess,
reading, computers,
running, and was heavily into the Christian
religion…still am, sort
of.   It’s all worked really well and I’ve been
clean since 1988.  After
a few years of swearing off of alcohol, I decided
that there were
actually people out there that drank “socially” in a
different fashion
than I understood “socially” (getting together with
a bunch of friends
and getting blitzed up and going crazy).  I decided
that it was largely
a matter of perspective.  So for the the past 10
years or so, I have
drank on occasion.  Most often, this amounts to 1-2
beers, or glasses of
wine, or a mixed drink or two, rarely resulting in
any kind of buzz.  I
know that any more than “a couple” is foolishness
for me.  That’s not to
say that I haven’t been “intoxicated” at all over
that period of
time…perhaps 5 or so times, and never to the point
where I lose
control.  I agree that it isn’t always a black and
white issue, but I
think that in many cases, if not most, any kind of
drug or alcohol use
is a foolish decision.  In my own life, I haven’t
seen any kind of
steady progression toward a real bender or relapse
or anything.
sometimes I won’t even have a drink for months at a
time and I don’t
even think about it…nor is it because I’m laying
off or anything…I
just don’t think about it or I simply feel like a
soda instead of a
beer.  Some are capable of handling this to some
degree, but I think
most people are not.  Am I special?  Hell no.  I
just never gave it much
thought after I decided I could drink safely and I
never bought into the
indoctrination and standard point of view in the SA
counseling field.
NA works very well. So does Church. So does exercise
and other healthier
forms of obsession.  In my personal life, I know
lots of people who had
some heavy addictions that have done it without NA
or working the steps.
Most of them will throw down an occasional beer or
glass of wine.  I
don’t know of any who smoke pot or abuse any other
substances.  That’s
my two cents.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

jonarmst@du.edu 05/30/02 03:54PM >>>

But for others out there that had any sort of
dependencies
that did not go the 12 step route, did you stop
using drugs
completely?
It seems as though if the 12 step programs could
teach (especially in
the
case of alcohol, which is very hard to get away
from) some sort of
reduction, or a less black and white way of looking
at things, they
would
be more successful.  But this would entail a lack of
clear Black and
White, something mysteriously inconceivable to a lot
of folks.

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END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 30, 2002 at 4:26:45 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Been lurking for a while…first time poster here, so Howdy!

I didn’t do the 12-step thing.  After a 10 year career of using I
“pretty much” quit everything completely.  My primary “program” was that
I “got saved,” and then cut off old relationships and developed new
ones.  A few months clean and I had 2-3 beers and knew for myself that I
was starting to cross the line and could easily tip right on over into
another whacky adventure, so I completely swore off.  No drugs. No
alcohol.  But I did have to replace them with a number of things.  Got
heavy into movies, video games, playing chess, reading, computers,
running, and was heavily into the Christian religion…still am, sort
of.   It’s all worked really well and I’ve been clean since 1988.  After
a few years of swearing off of alcohol, I decided that there were
actually people out there that drank “socially” in a different fashion
than I understood “socially” (getting together with a bunch of friends
and getting blitzed up and going crazy).  I decided that it was largely
a matter of perspective.  So for the the past 10 years or so, I have
drank on occasion.  Most often, this amounts to 1-2 beers, or glasses of
wine, or a mixed drink or two, rarely resulting in any kind of buzz.  I
know that any more than “a couple” is foolishness for me.  That’s not to
say that I haven’t been “intoxicated” at all over that period of
time…perhaps 5 or so times, and never to the point where I lose
control.  I agree that it isn’t always a black and white issue, but I
think that in many cases, if not most, any kind of drug or alcohol use
is a foolish decision.  In my own life, I haven’t seen any kind of
steady progression toward a real bender or relapse or anything.
sometimes I won’t even have a drink for months at a time and I don’t
even think about it…nor is it because I’m laying off or anything…I
just don’t think about it or I simply feel like a soda instead of a
beer.  Some are capable of handling this to some degree, but I think
most people are not.  Am I special?  Hell no.  I just never gave it much
thought after I decided I could drink safely and I never bought into the
indoctrination and standard point of view in the SA counseling field.
NA works very well. So does Church. So does exercise and other healthier
forms of obsession.  In my personal life, I know lots of people who had
some heavy addictions that have done it without NA or working the steps.
Most of them will throw down an occasional beer or glass of wine.  I
don’t know of any who smoke pot or abuse any other substances.  That’s
my two cents.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

jonarmst@du.edu 05/30/02 03:54PM >>>

But for others out there that had any sort of dependencies
that did not go the 12 step route, did you stop using drugs
completely?
It seems as though if the 12 step programs could teach (especially in
the
case of alcohol, which is very hard to get away from) some sort of
reduction, or a less black and white way of looking at things, they
would
be more successful.  But this would entail a lack of clear Black and
White, something mysteriously inconceivable to a lot of folks.

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: [ibogaine] ? for you all on this list – 12 step programs
Date: May 30, 2002 at 3:54:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have a question for all of you on this list.  I thought I had a
“problem” at one point until I read some of ya’lls descriptions 😉  I just
had your run-of-the-mill $1000/week blow/crank habit, punctuated with the
usual half-dozen ‘pams a day and occasional smoked chiva, maybe some E and
burgled K, Wild Turkey, etc.

There was also a female involved in all of this.  Whatever.  Point being,
I went to a counselor, was referred to a 12 step group, and was told I
needed to stop using everything, which would’ve entailed
completely cutting off contact with everyone I knew at that time.  I
realized I didn’t WANT to stop totally, and this usage was just a symptom
of underlying problems.  I also have this thing though, where if someone
tells me I can’t do something I go out of my way to prove to them that I
can.

So basically, I just quit.  I know the whole physical dependence thing
must be a totally different ballpark, but basically, I just left town and
made a pledge to start improving myself.

I can’t say I understand what it is like to be a heroin addict, but I
would imagine that heroin is something you would have to stop using
completely.  But for others out there that had any sort of dependencies
that did not go the 12 step route, did you stop using drugs completely?
It seems as though if the 12 step programs could teach (especially in the
case of alcohol, which is very hard to get away from) some sort of
reduction, or a less black and white way of looking at things, they would
be more successful.  But this would entail a lack of clear Black and
White, something mysteriously inconceivable to a lot of folks.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 30, 2002 at 3:32:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, May 30, 2002 at 12:19:04PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:
|
| — Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
| > No, no! Powerlessness over the gorgeous newcomer(!) is the 13th step..!!
|
| Thats putting it nicely!  :^)

Yo, that’s wrong too.  The REAL first step is to immediately establish a
strong codependence on someone else of the opposite sex.  No worries, yo
baby, yo baby, yo baby, yo…  I will SAVE YOU from yourself!  I’ve got
whatchoo want!

Unfortunately, there’s a little problem with that…  2 weeks later, once
the eXciting newness of the situation has faded a little, it spins right
around to, “Look, that wasn’t me, that was my dick…  The problem is,
you’re Completely Fucking Crazy, Annoying beyond belief, and I am FILLED
with the URGE to STRANGLE you…  So, like, go to a meeting and share.”

That’s a slight exaggeration, if she’s a total hottie, it can take nearly
3 weeks to reach that stage.

Just sayin,

Patrick

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Not for potheads
Date: May 30, 2002 at 3:35:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Speaking of being too stupid to know history, which you do, excuse me, “decades”?  Believe both “culture,” if what we have can be called that, AND use of weed in various ways is a BIT (try maybe 20,000 years) older than that.  What IS STUPID about this culture is the short-sighted belief that a win-or-bust attitude towards the planet, and all its creatures including the plant variety, and our relationship with all and such, is a negotiable commodity that we can sell out in order to keep our precious “individuality” intact.  Now, I’m an individual and believe in my rights to remain so, but that doesn’t mean I don’t see the benefits of community.  Balance.  Embrace the peace pipe and fill it with buds……or ayahuasca, or iboka, or whatever “soothes the savage breast” and also initiates us into the tribe of planetary consciousness.  (sorry if the latter term sounds “new age”; I don’t know a better phrase for it).  You are clever, but are you wise?  Just wondering.  Jellking

There’s quite a bit of difference between whatever-ritual-use-of-hemp and
aforementioned “fetish culture”, the tacky artifacts of which are quite
evident in any head shop.

This unnecessarily cranky rant (which I didn’t write, and was only meant
to be humorous, I used to smoke daily for years on end and didn’t mean to
offend) still touched on the chief reason why I think weed should be
legal: it’ll remove its taboo-ness and reveal itself for what it is –
something that has sapped the potential of countless people I know
(including myself) and it will relegate itself to something associated
with the lower classes.  It’ll take its rightful place amongst something
generally associated with “Blunt” hats, Cherry 2000 comics, and skull
bongs.

I once read that the supposed difference between the American philosophy
and the Social Democratic-esque philosophy of the Western European
countries (at least until recently) is that “if you are not free to fail,
then you are not really free.”  Given that, America should’ve been the
first place to legalize something as banal as marijuana.  I think people
who have failed at things are generally a lot more interesting anyway…
but let’s start calling pot for what it is, generally a distraction for
the lower classes (and aspiring lower classes) that coupled with
electronic entertainment diversions serves as a giant pacifier but
disguises itself as “rebellion” in today’s social climate.

Unfortunately, in America today, the only real way to curb the use of
something is to make it the cultural equivalent of a mullet haircut.  I
don’t think this is right, and I’ll spare ya some freshman
Marxist-analogy-bullsh1t, but I think if you legalized weed you’d make it
about as attractive to middle-class youth (which are the only youth that
really exist, right?) as a grey-primered ’73 Nova and 3/4 length sleeve
AC/DC shirt.  (On the corollary tip, aspiring poor kids would draw the
same distinction.)  Legalizing it would therefore enhance the class stigma
associated with it, but (paradoxically) remove it as an excuse to
prosecute the lower classes.  Everyone would be better off.

I could draw an almost clean line between everyone I know who stopped
smoking the “herb” after a certain age of expected youthful indiscretion
and those who didn’t as to who is accomplishing something with their life,
not depressed, and somewhat self-satisfied.  And unfortunately, it takes
so little money to maintain a habit that it allows so many to reach an
equilibrium where they don’t need to pimp themselves on the street.  It’s
just day after day of depression, insomnia, and cable TV, but they can’t
stop because they “need it to relax” or they’ll “get depressed” if they
stop smoking it.

I guess this is just personal to me because it has affected so many
friends that I know.  I don’t buy into the notion that there is some
objective “success” that must be attained with life, I’m talking more
along the lines of what Erich Fromm would call the process of becoming
human.

Just my $.02 and apologies to all,
jonathan

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]
Date: May 30, 2002 at 3:23:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Chris,

Let me introduce myself. I’m Dave, also known as Gamma on the Ibo list.

Ex Addict. Been thru many different detoxes, every kind I can think of but not
much worked until I Dosed on Ibogaine. Ibogaine opened doors I never knew
existed and the gilded door that opened for me with Ibo is a conscious contact
with the Great Spirit. I don’t think Ibogaine would work for anyone just
because it worked for me, It really takes a certain mind-set to deal with and
Ibo experience, and use that to get off drugs.

Kind of Like NA. It works for Lots and Lots of people, I know this first hand.
I go to meetings, have a sponsor and try to “live the spiritual principles” set
forth from the steps. But I also do many other things in my life that are
equally as important. Right now, I’d rank surfing right up there if not even
more important than meetings, for the satisfaction and spiritual connection I
get while in the water. Thats me.

There’s a fine line between attraction and promotion with the 12 step groups.
There are lots of people who stop using drugs and go on to lead happy,
relatively healthy lives without “the program”. I know many of them, including
Patrick. This can be hard for staunch 12 steppers to accept because they are so
wrapped up in HAVING to go to meetings that it totally flips their belief
system upside down and inside out.

But it really comes back to the individual given freedom of choice. Getting
clean is a choice (one many of us didn’t even know existed). Going to meetings
is a choice we make. Following a spiritual path is a choice we make. These are
all choices we make for ourselves. As soon as someone else starts making
choices for us things start to disinigrate. Telling an addict that they HAVE to
go to NA (and i’m not pointing fingers) is like saying there is no choice.
Saying NA works for me so it will work for you too is taking the choice out of
the recieving addicts hand.

I’ve referred many people to meetings. Mainly I tell them, it might seem really
weird, and it might seem really cool. check it out, see what YOU think.

Mainly, meetings are filled with people trying to make the best out of a fucked
up situation. Lots of people who end up in meetings early on are highly
vulnerable and are in a highly suggestive state and are easily led or mis-led.
Its really really really important to respect this and really really really
watch how we deal with that. Narcotics Anonymous MAY NOT be the best place for
them. Or it may be. Let them decide. The idea that NA is a catch all for all
addicts is not a realistic view. People who promote NA as “THE SOLUTION” give
NA
a bad name.

all the best,
-Dave aka Gamma

— “C h r i s ~ K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW” <addict@starpower.net> wrote:

Pat
I admit fault about talking trash
about someone I dont know
However the hell
and fire stuff
700 club
Cult
thats YOU
as far as addicts finding a new way to LIVE
I know NA works
because its working for me
people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie
any addict can get clean
and any way they choose to live is fine by me
what ever floats your boat
however when someone suffering asks me for help
and they are addicts
I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I know thats the best
place
for them
I have no complaints  with life today
Chris K


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

http://intervention.org/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 30, 2002 at 3:19:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
No, no! Powerlessness over the gorgeous newcomer(!) is the 13th step..!!

Thats putting it nicely!  :^)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] thanks
Date: May 30, 2002 at 3:10:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, May 29, 2002 at 04:53:13PM -0700], [Carla Barnes] wrote:

Thanks, your message was very dramatic.  I give it 5ive Shiny Gold Stars
and an A+.

| I’m very sorry. That’s a lot of pressure. What that NA
| person did wasn’t very nice. I always thought you and
| some of the others on this list were paranoid. I guess
| you’re not. People sure are talking shit without any
| reason to do that and it doesn’t have anything to do
| with recovery or the 12 steps exactly like Jon and
| Kerry said. But they veil it in that as some excuse.
| That’s messed up.

Yeah well, yah know.  Fortunately for me I didn’t stick around rehab long
enough to catch a Mysterious Disease — I figure I had enough problems —
and not being in recovery in the first place, it is difficult to relapse.

I’ve simply made the choice to stop bangin’ dope.

This is not perpetual, but at least another coupla years.  When the time
comes to make another series of choices, I like to believe I will make
brand new ones.  <shrug>.

As far as anythin’ else goes…  If I viewed reality from within the
paradigm you have described, I would be crushed under all that within 5
minutes.  But see, I don’t.  I cannot “relapse.”  Which is to say shoot
dope.  ‘Cuz basically, it’s not about “recovery” it’s about various
people’s media kits not going down in flames when EXHIBIT A who is their
example of what that Miracle Product Ibogaine does, suddenly decides to go
bang up.  While I would not be standing on a street corner, I am
relatively certain that I would no longer be on call, and dismantling
human brains either.  “Oh well, you made the choice to go do heroin, so
then, do that, and deal.  You can’t do any of this while sprung.”

It’s all pretty cool, ‘cuz basically, I am not required to kiss ass, I can
be moody, I can do nearly anything I want … except shoot heroin.  Not a
bad job description, and a very interesting life.  But, right now — and
for a few years — with regards to that dope thing, I do hafta be
superman, I do not have the safety net of “my disease” or the option of
relapsing.

Freedom rocks.  With freedom comes responsibility.  A job done really well
is rewarded with far more responsibility, until one day you are sitting in
your office, where the phones ring 24hours a day with PEOPLE wanting
things, and realize perhaps that wasn’t the best choice.

Right now it’s all-good though.

But thanks,

Patrick

p.s., “people throwing a party.”  Fuck yeah, I know that.  Every 12-steppy
kinda fuckhead that ever got in my face while I was disintegrating, would
be thrilled.  “You SEE!  WE TOLD YOU you couldn’t do things your way!”
Despite the fact that I have outlasted all their clients, most of their
counselers and quite a few of the owners, who had all this crap to say to
me.  It’s not about wellness or “recovery,” or much of anythin’ ‘cept ego.

Which is alright too, because it works both ways.  When I’m in a really
negative and hateful space, those same people help me maintain…  I can’t
relapse, every single day I’m clear of heroin, is another day I give a
great big FUCK YOU to every asshole who ever attempted to disempower me,
when I was already falling apart and half dead.

It is never more important to be right, then when everyone sez you’re wrong.

So hah!

From: “G. Ratte'” <z3kpw@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] life
Date: May 30, 2002 at 1:46:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Can’t decide if it’s all the word in ‘the news’ the last few days about how
we NY’ers are supposed to be drinking, (NOT), smoking cigs, (Definitely),
and smoking pot (not really, about the same), more since Sept. 11 due to
our post-traumatic stress, or depression resulting from those falling
towers. Or if it’s rather simply the incredibly blatant criminality of our
criminal government, and tons of depressing news I read all day, day after
freakin day.

Hm. I’m feeling pretty cheerful too, especially since 9/11.
(BTW: hi, I’m new here, from NYC).  Definitely reaching new heights of
laid-backness, ‘cuz petty stuff’s been put into perspective in a hurry.
Especially with the thought that some asshole could nuke the city at any
second with an airburst from a helicopter or something.  I like it here;
don’t nuke my city, please.  Been cleaning up my diet in the past few months,
getting nutrition together, working out hard, reading tons & learning all
kindsa stuff.  New girlie’s coming in from Dallas this weekend to visit.
Looking forward to lotsa boogie boarding this summer at Rockaway Beach.
Enjoying the crazy woods up in Inwood Hill Park.  Getting music done with
some good people, it’s fun.
r0kk on, good luck-

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 30, 2002 at 1:08:42 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No, no! Powerlessness over the gorgeous newcomer(!) is the 13th step..!!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 30 May 2002 10:42
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: addict@intervention.org
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

[13]: Talk shit about people you don’t know.

Wait a minute… the 13th step is when you lure the unsuspecting newcomer
into
lustfull sin under the guise of “here honey, let me HELP you”

wooo hooo! skip 1-12, go right to step 13!!!!

Kids, don’t try this at home.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] life
Date: May 30, 2002 at 12:51:42 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HEY Preston

Giant respect, affection, empathy and solidarity all the way across the pond!

Just >from 1 editor to another; stop reading for a minute/hour – f the world; it’ll still be there when u get back.

Can’t u and the gal just wonder around central park and eat ice-cream for a few hrs; did you know Ben & Jerry’s are DP reformers. There u go! eat their Ice-Cream!!!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 30 May 2002 01:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] life

Marko wrote> Life is SOOOOOO beautiful !!!!!!!!!
(just in case someone forgot this!);-))<

Wow, like hey, glad to see someone is cheerful.;-((
I’ve been struggling under this incredibly black mood for days now. Can’t decide if it’s all the word in ‘the news’ the last few days about how we NY’ers are supposed to be drinking, (NOT), smoking cigs, (Definitely), and smoking pot (not really, about the same), more since Sept. 11 due to our post-traumatic stress, or depression resulting from those falling towers. Or if it’s rather simply the incredibly blatant criminality of our criminal government, and tons of depressing news I read all day, day after freakin day.
Whichever, it sucks, and it’s been unshakable. I’ve been A Number One Bitch since the weekend, much to the chagrin of my loving girlfriend.
It’s interesting that Carla noted something about support groups, and Brett, (I think, but seem to have deleted his message), mentioned being lured to a meeting, as I was both asked today if I were going to a meeting, (no, thanks), and thought soon after about how this list almost qualifies, but not really.
Ah well, it’s good to know there’s still some cheerful person or two out there finding life beautiful today.
Just checking in, saying hello to all. (Carla, I’m not listening…I’m attentively reading.;-)))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:06 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] life

Hi everybody,

Life is SOOOOOO beautiful !!!!!!!!!

(just in case someone forgot this!)

;-))

Marko

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] thanks
Date: May 30, 2002 at 12:47:49 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yep, there’s some truth in what you say, but if Patrick did lapse, what
difference would it make to Ibogaine REALLY?
Most of us f lapse for crying out loud; (and I’m sure all, or most of us)
would not party if anyone of us lapsed, let alone PK.

Carrie, I get the feeling yu hold some folk up in such high esteem, it would
be awful 4 u and them if they fell.

FACT: this list is FULL of very HUMAN/HUMANE people, like u infact.
Vulnerable even (in some cases – better start speaking 4 myself. I am)
FACT: most – all? – of us have been addicted to junk (whatever) at some
point
FACT: Most of us have probably cleaned up/mesed up many times; have rarely
met a dope-fiend who didn’t.
FACT: some of our fellows on this list still are into whatever, and? Indeed,
my own expereince of them generally, is that they are OFTEN (not always) the
most radical politically for which they have my utmost respect. In short,
they are activists and they are great!

In short, PK, nor anyone else can carry the Ibogaine flame forever; as u
say, it is too much of a responsibility. All treatment regimes ‘fail’ for us
sometimes. This is life, and it is not necessarily anybody, or anythings
fault; it just is.

but yes it is important to get the treatment as appropriate to the
individual as possible.

Thanx to all of you for flying another treatment flame out there for any of
us to go for when/if we need to

Respect

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 30 May 2002 00:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] thanks

I wanted to say that I found all this through heroin
times and at first I thought it was interesting and a
lot of fun and Patrick, my first impression was that
ok you’re really smart, you’re cute, you’re yet
another guy who thinks he’s all that and is god’s gift
to the world.

Mindvox is very strange it’s a complicated and weird
combination of really beautiful and petty and ugly and
funny and then goes back to beautiful. When I look at
it I see a group of people who are very messed up but
very talented. That’s a big plus, most people are only
very messed up without the talent.

What I’m trying to say is I never thought before what
it must be like to represent ibogaine, to be you.
You’re not obnoxious or funny just because. I guess
there are a lot of people who attack you just because
you are you. I know you don’t believe in the disease
of addiction, but even only addiction is so hard to
handle. You have a lot of pressure. If you ever fall
it’s not only like a relapse it’s like the whole
idealogy you represent is suddenly washed away because
you as a person did heroin so everything you said
isn’t true anymore. If you ever relapse you’re not
going to have a home group to help lift you back on
your feet, you’re going to have people all over the
world throwing a party and being able to say they knew
you were wrong all along.

I’m very sorry. That’s a lot of pressure. What that NA
person did wasn’t very nice. I always thought you and
some of the others on this list were paranoid. I guess
you’re not. People sure are talking shit without any
reason to do that and it doesn’t have anything to do
with recovery or the 12 steps exactly like Jon and
Kerry said. But they veil it in that as some excuse.
That’s messed up.

I only wanted to say that I think you’re a really
amazing person and so many of the people on this list
are in that category. Hi Preston and Gamma and
everyone else.

Thanks for making this place. I’m not so sure all the
advice is why I’m here, most of all I feel like I have
somewhere to go where I can say anything and have it
accepted and listened to. And I’m grateful for that.
It feels like someone is always out there and
listening to at least some of what I have to say.

Even if they’re not 🙂

Carla B

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]
Date: May 30, 2002 at 12:32:47 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“..people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie”
No Chris-whomever-u-r, they are living fullstop?
Whatever happened to LIVE AND LET LIVE in NA then?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: C h r i s ~ K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW [mailto:addict@starpower.net]
Sent: 29 May 2002 23:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]

Pat
I admit fault about talking trash
about someone I dont know
However the hell
and fire stuff
700 club
Cult
thats YOU
as far as addicts finding a new way to LIVE
I know NA works
because its working for me
people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie
any addict can get clean
and any way they choose to live is fine by me
what ever floats your boat
however when someone suffering asks me for help
and they are addicts
I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I know thats the best
place
for them
I have no complaints  with life today
Chris K


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

http://intervention.org/

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 30, 2002 at 5:41:36 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: addict@intervention.org
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

[13]: Talk shit about people you don’t know.

Wait a minute… the 13th step is when you lure the unsuspecting newcomer into
lustfull sin under the guise of “here honey, let me HELP you”

wooo hooo! skip 1-12, go right to step 13!!!!

Kids, don’t try this at home.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] life
Date: May 30, 2002 at 2:27:04 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve been struggling under this incredibly black mood for days now. Can’t decide if it’s all the word in ‘the news’ the last few days about how we NY’ers are supposed to be drinking, (NOT), smoking cigs, (Definitely), and smoking pot (not really, about the same), more since Sept. 11 due to our post-traumatic stress, or depression resulting from those falling towers. Or if it’s rather simply the incredibly blatant criminality of our criminal government, and tons of depressing news I read all day, day after freakin day.
Maybe it’s saturn opposite Pluto, like before….nevertheless, sorry  you feel this way, Preston.  And I do too.  It sucks, eh?  Take care of yourself, Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Not for potheads
Date: May 29, 2002 at 10:14:29 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jon wrote, “Once pot is legal, the decades-old fetish culture that has sprung up
around weed will last about as long as a community joint on the 20th of
April. This is an excellent thing, since pot culture has contributed
exactly two positive things to the world: Reggae music and Ben & Jerry’s
Cherry Garcia ice cream.”
Speaking of being too stupid to know history, which you do, excuse me, “decades”?  Believe both “culture,” if what we have can be called that, AND use of weed in various ways is a BIT (try maybe 20,000 years) older than that.  What IS STUPID about this culture is the short-sighted belief that a win-or-bust attitude towards the planet, and all its creatures including the plant variety, and our relationship with all and such, is a negotiable commodity that we can sell out in order to keep our precious “individuality” intact.  Now, I’m an individual and believe in my rights to remain so, but that doesn’t mean I don’t see the benefits of community.  Balance.  Embrace the peace pipe and fill it with buds……or ayahuasca, or iboka, or whatever “soothes the savage breast” and also initiates us into the tribe of planetary consciousness.  (sorry if the latter term sounds “new age”; I don’t know a better phrase for it).  You are clever, but are you wise?  Just wondering.  Jellking
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: US: Court OKs Use Of Religious Pot On Federal Lands
Date: May 29, 2002 at 9:41:16 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

more on religious uses of ‘drugs’, that don’t involve addiction.
Stick that in an NA pipe and smoke it.;-))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: ARON KAY
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@bestweb.net;
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: Fw: US: Court OKs Use Of Religious Pot On Federal Lands

> —– Original Message —–
> From: “MAPNews” <owner-mapnews@mapinc.org>
> To: <mapnews@mapinc.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 12:32 PM
> Subject: MN: US: Court OKs Use Of Religious Pot On Federal Lands
>
>
> > Newshawk: Dale Gieringer
> > Pubdate: Wed, 29 May 2002
> > Source: San Francisco Chronicle (CA)
> > Webpage:
> >
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/05/29/MN161789.DTL
> > Copyright: 2002 Hearst Communications Inc.
> > Contact: letters@sfchronicle.com
> > Website: http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/
> > Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/388
> > Author: Bob Egelko
> > Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/spirit.htm (Spiritual or Sacramental)
> >
> > COURT OKS USE OF RELIGIOUS POT ON FEDERAL LANDS
> >
> > Appellate Ruling Applies To 9 Western States, Territories
> >
> > If you’re a Rastafarian who considers marijuana holy, it’s legal to
light
> up
> > in Guam — and maybe in any national park on the West Coast.
> >
> > At least that seemed to be the conclusion of a federal appeals court in
> San
> > Francisco, which said Tuesday that a 1993 religious-freedom law puts
> limits
> > on prosecutions in the “federal realm” — specifically in a U.S.
territory
> > like Guam, or potentially within any other federal property.
> >
> > A conservative three-judge panel said a Rastafarian — whose
Jamaica-based
> > religion regards marijuana as a sacrament that brings believers closer
to
> > divinity — could not be federally prosecuted for merely possessing
> > marijuana, a decision that upheld a portion of the 1993 Religious
Freedom
> > Restoration Act.
> >
> > The same reasoning would apply to drug prosecutions on other federal
> > property, such as national parks, said Barry Portman, the federal public
> > defender in San Francisco. He said marijuana possession for personal use
> is
> > prohibited by federal law but is rarely prosecuted.
> >
> > The ruling did not help the defendant in the Guam case, however, as the
> > court said he could be prosecuted for importing marijuana.
> >
> > “Rastafarianism does not require importation of a controlled substance,
> > which increases (its) availability,” the court said.
> >
> > That distinction doesn’t make sense, said Graham Boyd, the American
Civil
> > Liberties Union lawyer who argued the case and plans to seek review by a
> > larger appellate panel.
> >
> > “It’s equivalent to saying wine is a necessary sacrament for some
> Christians
> > but you have to grow your own grapes,” he said.
> >
> > The religious freedom law protects religious practices from legal
> > interference unless the government can show a compelling need for
> > enforcement. It was prompted by a 1990 U.S. Supreme Court ruling
allowing
> > Oregon to enforce an anti-drug law against a Native American who used
> peyote
> > for religious purposes.
> >
> > In 1997, the Supreme Court ruled that the federal statute was an
> > unconstitutional interference with states’ authority to enforce their
own
> > religiously neutral laws — but that ruling applied only to state
> > prosecutions.
> >
> > On Tuesday the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco said
> the
> > 1993 law was a valid restriction on the federal government, reasoning
that
> > Congress had the power to create religious exemptions to laws it had
> > originally passed.
> >
> > The ruling, which follows decisions by two other appeals courts, applies
> to
> > California, eight other Western states, and the Pacific territories of
> Guam
> > — where the case originated — and the Northern Mariana islands.
> >
> > If it became a nationwide standard, it would also cover such federal
> > enclaves as Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico, defense lawyers said.
> >
> > The case involved Benny Toves Guerrero, a Rastafarian arrested at the
Guam
> > airport with five ounces of marijuana and 10 ounces of seeds. He was
> charged
> > with importing the drugs from Hawaii.
> >
> > Guam’s Supreme Court ordered the charges dismissed, saying Guerrero’s
> > religious practices were protected by Guam’s “fundamental law.” The
> appeals
> > court disagreed, saying the fundamental law was passed by the U.S.
> Congress
> > and contained no religious rights beyond those of federal law — and
that
> > importing drugs wasn’t a protected religious practice.
> >
__________________________________________________________________________
> > Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest
in
> > receiving the included information for research and educational
purposes.
> > —
> > MAP posted-by: Doc-Hawk
> >
>

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]
Date: May 29, 2002 at 9:15:30 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Chris wrote-
>I know NA works
because its working for me<

Ok, this is rich.
I honestly cannot count the number of people on all my fingers and toes that I know here in NYC who spent time, often years, in NA, CA, AA, blank-A meetings, and are out using now. So it’s really cool (I suppose) to hear meetings work for you, and I wish you the best of luck.
But I count myself in the group that found myself continuously choosing to reuse dope and coke until I stopped going to those meetings, and stopped listening to others tell me I was helpless, had no control, and that my best thinking had gotten me where I was, as that had to be the stupidest thing anyone anywhere ever said to me, and they said it to me repeatedly.

>people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie<

Which lie is that, if I may be so bold?

>any addict can get clean<

Perhaps, though that’s an awfully sweeping statement. Is it really so hard to imagine that not everyone wants to get ‘clean’? Oh, hold on, maybe that’s the lie. Or somebody’s denial.

>and any way they choose to live is fine by me
what ever floats your boat<

Whew, glad that’s settled. I was just looking to get your number, so as to make sure my lifestyle was ok with you, but now that won’t be necessary.

>however when someone suffering asks me for help
and they are addicts
I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I know thats the best
place
for them<
How in the hell do you know what the best place for any addict other than yourself is? How haughty, condescending, and not all that surprising to me, particularly coming from a happy meetings goer, as in those meetings this was one of the most common attitudes I ever found proponents for, I guess unsurprisingly.

>I have no complaints  with life today<

I do, regardless if I can do anything about them or not. My back hurts, my stomach hurts, my mood is black, I’m behind on work, and I’m struggling to not be an asshole.
I guess I have to keep in mind to practice, not preach. Hard to remember sometimes.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: C h r i s ~ K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 6:19 PM
Subject: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]

Pat
I admit fault about talking trash
about someone I dont know
However the hell
and fire stuff
700 club
Cult
thats YOU
as far as addicts finding a new way to LIVE
I know NA works
because its working for me
people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie
any addict can get clean
and any way they choose to live is fine by me
what ever floats your boat
however when someone suffering asks me for help
and they are addicts
I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I know thats the best
place
for them
I have no complaints  with life today
Chris K


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

http://intervention.org/

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] life
Date: May 29, 2002 at 8:50:09 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko wrote> Life is SOOOOOO beautiful !!!!!!!!!
(just in case someone forgot this!);-))<

Wow, like hey, glad to see someone is cheerful.;-((
I’ve been struggling under this incredibly black mood for days now. Can’t decide if it’s all the word in ‘the news’ the last few days about how we NY’ers are supposed to be drinking, (NOT), smoking cigs, (Definitely), and smoking pot (not really, about the same), more since Sept. 11 due to our post-traumatic stress, or depression resulting from those falling towers. Or if it’s rather simply the incredibly blatant criminality of our criminal government, and tons of depressing news I read all day, day after freakin day.
Whichever, it sucks, and it’s been unshakable. I’ve been A Number One Bitch since the weekend, much to the chagrin of my loving girlfriend.
It’s interesting that Carla noted something about support groups, and Brett, (I think, but seem to have deleted his message), mentioned being lured to a meeting, as I was both asked today if I were going to a meeting, (no, thanks), and thought soon after about how this list almost qualifies, but not really.
Ah well, it’s good to know there’s still some cheerful person or two out there finding life beautiful today.
Just checking in, saying hello to all. (Carla, I’m not listening…I’m attentively reading.;-)))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:06 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] life

Hi everybody,

Life is SOOOOOO beautiful !!!!!!!!!

(just in case someone forgot this!)

;-))

Marko

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]
Date: May 29, 2002 at 8:09:16 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Brett.

Is that person on this list? I think they are only
cc’ing to here?

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris,

A couple comments which are just IMO. In “the rooms”
they tend to like it when one speaks for themselves,
sharing their “experience, strength and hope” and
all
that jazz.

I know NA works
because its working for me

You know NA works FOR you because it works FOR YOU.
You DO NOT know NA works for me because it works for
you.

I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I
know thats the best place for them

No offense but you think you know. Ever try
RELIGION?
That is where people tell you what is best for you
to
do because they know what is best. Nothing wrong
with
steering someone to NA (I do), as in TRY IT, maybe
it
will work, maybe it will do some good, maybe it just
ain’t your thing – or are addicts suppose to not be
unique, different and go with the program. It has
always been a problem for me in recovery, people
telling me what is good for me, what I should do,
what
will work for me… and they don’t listen. It wasn’t
till I did for me, was responsable to myself, did
what
worked and didn’t do what didn’t work (contrary to
the
religious fanatics at NA meetings say I
should/should
not do). I personally liked AA much better and still
go to an occasional meeting, that sort of worked for
me but NA, really didn’t. In fact I was just at an
NA
meeting (mistake taking that “suggestion” from
someone
in AA about drugs in recovery) where I was treated
like I was talking blasphemy because I have an issue
that came up about pain meds – fyi, I take pain
meds,
as in narcotics, works for me sort of. The problem
part is I can’t stand them since the ibo and have
not
abused them in something like 15 years. Hummm, lets
see, get a sponsor, I know that part, it is where I
am
suppose to trust someone and they violate that
trust.
No, not always but it did happen BIG TIME (super
big)
and can you imagine I knew him for 5 years, we were
suppose to be friends. That is the place they tell
you
stuff like NA is the only way. That eating right,
ZEN,
spirituality and YOGA stuff, what is that, you need
MEETINGS, coffee, cigarettes, candy and lots of bad
food (you know after the first couple thousand they
kind of lose their charm) – god forbid I mention
nutrition in an NA meeting. Anyway, most often I
don’t
think about drugs, cept after one of those, my life
is
hell, look what drugs did to me, I relapsed (again),
lost my wife, the job, the kids, what I have been
sober for 15years and “this is it”… meetings.
Know what, sure if it works then do it but they are
just as full of shit as anyone out there telling
someone else what they should do (come on in, the
water is fine…) AND they have just as good a
method
of recovery (maybe better than some) as anyone else

to shoehorn someone into a treatment that does not
work for them id doomed to failure. I know MANY
people
who are quite sober/clean/happy without NA (or AA or
whatever A), some did it for a time, some never did
(except to try it), some do the GOD thing, some into
new age stuff, some brute force it. However you get
happy, however you need to look at yourself is great
but there are an awful lot of sober people out there
that have no clue about themselves either, live
their
own lie, why are addicts not allowed to do the
same?IBOGAINE does in fact work but just like any
med/treatment it is not for everyone and it ain’t a
cure (though for some that may be all they need –
seriously). If that was all I did, I may still be
using.

So, my suggestion to you is (well do what you want)
that there may be better ways than telling people
what
THEY should do, the second you say this, I don’t
hear
a thing – yes, it is my addiction talking… Uh huh.

Enough rant but you hit a nerve

I have no complaints  with life today

And I am happy with life today. Complaints I have
though but those are due to external forces I have
no
control over (that is what I get for that trust
thing).

Brett

Chris K

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] thanks
Date: May 29, 2002 at 7:53:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wanted to say that I found all this through heroin
times and at first I thought it was interesting and a
lot of fun and Patrick, my first impression was that
ok you’re really smart, you’re cute, you’re yet
another guy who thinks he’s all that and is god’s gift
to the world.

Mindvox is very strange it’s a complicated and weird
combination of really beautiful and petty and ugly and
funny and then goes back to beautiful. When I look at
it I see a group of people who are very messed up but
very talented. That’s a big plus, most people are only
very messed up without the talent.

What I’m trying to say is I never thought before what
it must be like to represent ibogaine, to be you.
You’re not obnoxious or funny just because. I guess
there are a lot of people who attack you just because
you are you. I know you don’t believe in the disease
of addiction, but even only addiction is so hard to
handle. You have a lot of pressure. If you ever fall
it’s not only like a relapse it’s like the whole
idealogy you represent is suddenly washed away because
you as a person did heroin so everything you said
isn’t true anymore. If you ever relapse you’re not
going to have a home group to help lift you back on
your feet, you’re going to have people all over the
world throwing a party and being able to say they knew
you were wrong all along.

I’m very sorry. That’s a lot of pressure. What that NA
person did wasn’t very nice. I always thought you and
some of the others on this list were paranoid. I guess
you’re not. People sure are talking shit without any
reason to do that and it doesn’t have anything to do
with recovery or the 12 steps exactly like Jon and
Kerry said. But they veil it in that as some excuse.
That’s messed up.

I only wanted to say that I think you’re a really
amazing person and so many of the people on this list
are in that category. Hi Preston and Gamma and
everyone else.

Thanks for making this place. I’m not so sure all the
advice is why I’m here, most of all I feel like I have
somewhere to go where I can say anything and have it
accepted and listened to. And I’m grateful for that.
It feels like someone is always out there and
listening to at least some of what I have to say.

Even if they’re not 🙂

Carla B

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]
Date: May 29, 2002 at 7:48:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Chris,

A couple comments which are just IMO. In “the rooms”
they tend to like it when one speaks for themselves,
sharing their “experience, strength and hope” and all
that jazz.

I know NA works
because its working for me

You know NA works FOR you because it works FOR YOU.
You DO NOT know NA works for me because it works for
you.

I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I
know thats the best place for them

No offense but you think you know. Ever try RELIGION?
That is where people tell you what is best for you to
do because they know what is best. Nothing wrong with
steering someone to NA (I do), as in TRY IT, maybe it
will work, maybe it will do some good, maybe it just
ain’t your thing – or are addicts suppose to not be
unique, different and go with the program. It has
always been a problem for me in recovery, people
telling me what is good for me, what I should do, what
will work for me… and they don’t listen. It wasn’t
till I did for me, was responsable to myself, did what
worked and didn’t do what didn’t work (contrary to the
religious fanatics at NA meetings say I should/should
not do). I personally liked AA much better and still
go to an occasional meeting, that sort of worked for
me but NA, really didn’t. In fact I was just at an NA
meeting (mistake taking that “suggestion” from someone
in AA about drugs in recovery) where I was treated
like I was talking blasphemy because I have an issue
that came up about pain meds – fyi, I take pain meds,
as in narcotics, works for me sort of. The problem
part is I can’t stand them since the ibo and have not
abused them in something like 15 years. Hummm, lets
see, get a sponsor, I know that part, it is where I am
suppose to trust someone and they violate that trust.
No, not always but it did happen BIG TIME (super big)
and can you imagine I knew him for 5 years, we were
suppose to be friends. That is the place they tell you
stuff like NA is the only way. That eating right, ZEN,
spirituality and YOGA stuff, what is that, you need
MEETINGS, coffee, cigarettes, candy and lots of bad
food (you know after the first couple thousand they
kind of lose their charm) – god forbid I mention
nutrition in an NA meeting. Anyway, most often I don’t
think about drugs, cept after one of those, my life is
hell, look what drugs did to me, I relapsed (again),
lost my wife, the job, the kids, what I have been
sober for 15years and “this is it”… meetings.
Know what, sure if it works then do it but they are
just as full of shit as anyone out there telling
someone else what they should do (come on in, the
water is fine…) AND they have just as good a method
of recovery (maybe better than some) as anyone else –
to shoehorn someone into a treatment that does not
work for them id doomed to failure. I know MANY people
who are quite sober/clean/happy without NA (or AA or
whatever A), some did it for a time, some never did
(except to try it), some do the GOD thing, some into
new age stuff, some brute force it. However you get
happy, however you need to look at yourself is great
but there are an awful lot of sober people out there
that have no clue about themselves either, live their
own lie, why are addicts not allowed to do the
same?IBOGAINE does in fact work but just like any
med/treatment it is not for everyone and it ain’t a
cure (though for some that may be all they need –
seriously). If that was all I did, I may still be
using.

So, my suggestion to you is (well do what you want)
that there may be better ways than telling people what
THEY should do, the second you say this, I don’t hear
a thing – yes, it is my addiction talking… Uh huh.

Enough rant but you hit a nerve

I have no complaints  with life today

And I am happy with life today. Complaints I have
though but those are due to external forces I have no
control over (that is what I get for that trust
thing).

Brett

Chris K


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

http://intervention.org/

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual
or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received this
email
in error, please notify the sender by email and
delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 18:16:29 -0400
From: “C h r i s ~ K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW”
<addict@starpower.net>
Reply-to: addict@intervention.org
Organization: The Intervention Organization
To: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox

Pat
I admit fault about talking trash
about someone I dont know
However the hell
and fire stuff
700 club
Cult
thats YOU
as far as addicts finding a new way to LIVE
I know NA works
because its working for me
people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie
any addict can get clean
and any way they choose to live is fine by me
what ever floats your boat
however when someone suffering asks me for help
and they are addicts
I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I
know thats the best place
for them
I have no complaints  with life today
Chris K

“Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote:

On [Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:13:19PM -0700],
[Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Reading this one more time, I don’t want to go
on
| about this forever and I know we have this
| conversation not 2 weeks ago with the hate mail
that
| arrives here. But this person’s web site
| intervention.org isn’t all crazy and negative.
It’s a
| nice collection of links and art. Why does
someone who
| looks like they are not some fundamentalist
loonie and
| fills up his web site with love, love, recovery.
Have
| such extremely negative things to say and gives
off so
| much hate?
|
| Unless I missed something and there is some kind
of
| major argument going on I would have thought
better of
| this person.
|
| -carrie
|
|
| — Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
| > So much for support and compassion for your
fellow
| > addict!
| >
| > — lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:
| > >
| > > Wow that’s cold!
| > >
| > > I don’t understand i found mindvox through
your
| > links i thought it was
| > > beautiful then i read the writing and liked
it
| > more. why do you link them if
| > > you don’t like them??? i’m lost.
| > >
| > > ls
| > >
| > > > Lauren
| > > >he’ll be back in the spoon
| > > >or dead
| > > >or in Jail
| > > >From what I have read he seems depressed
| > > >and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
| > methadone
| > > >anyway
| > > >have fun enjoy life
| > > >and recovery can be beyond
| > > >thats right beyond our wildest dreams
| > > >the more we give the more we get
| > > >love
| > > >chris k

<… cut …>

I’ve never met Chris, I’ve never spoken with
Chris, I have never
interacted with Chris in any way whatsoever.
Although I do appreciate the
good wishes and positive vibes.  Giving is a
wonderful thing, just be
careful when it spins around to that Getting
part…

He’s simply working the 13th and 14th steps.

[13]: Talk shit about people you don’t know.

[14]: Everybody not of The Cult, is a Godless,
heathen sinner, sure to
burn in the fires of hell for all eternity (this
last part may be replaced
with the ever popular “jails, institutions and
death” rant).

The tragedy is…  People who are attempting to
end their drug dependence,
have to deal with this entire second tier of
bullshit, disinformation, and
nonsense, when attempting to get “help.”  And
that’s one helluva minefield
to navigate.  Welcome to the dark ages.

In conclusion, please do not cc this crap here.  I
have more than enough
of it filling my mailbox as it is.  Thanks a
bunch.

Chris: I have nothing negative to wish upon you.
You are already living
within the headspace you’ve created for yourself,
which appears to be
cruel and unusual punishment.  If you have 2
minutes, and what that person
cc’d here, is not cut up in some way…  Read it
back to yourself, and try
to make sense of it…  It’s about as reasonable
as any given 5 minutes on
the 700 club, or <insert your favorite Hellfire
and Damnation program
[Here]>.

| > > >he’ll be back in the spoon
| > > >or dead
| > > >or in Jail
| > > >From what I have read he seems depressed
| > > >and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
| > methadone
| > > >anyway
| > > >have fun enjoy life
| > > >and recovery can be beyond
| > > >thats right beyond our wildest dreams
| > > >the more we give the more we get
| > > >love
| > > >chris k

z00m,

Patrick


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

http://intervention.org/

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual
or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received this
email
in error, please notify the sender by email and
delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 29, 2002 at 7:18:29 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Tommy.

Knowing what you do now, why not try to detox him
another time and hope for better results and some kind
of lessons learned?

From the stories I’ve heard from the people on this
list, a lot of people here who have made it fell on
their faces after their first ibogaine and it took
them some time to manage what they’re doing now.

I’m sorry you’re going through all that. But it
doesn’t sound unusual or that different from the story
of so many people who did finally learn enough to keep
off heroin.

Carla B

— tgoodson7 <tgoodson7@cox.net> wrote:
Hi Carla:  Yes, my Grandson did get clean but he
didn’t stay clean.  He is
Manic-Depressive as well Obsessive-Compulsivewhich
is a difficult
combination to contend with.  He is also very
impulsive;  when an idea pops
into he is so
impulsive that he acts almost instantainiously.  He
almost never analizes a
potential situation before acting!!  As you probably
know that is a sure path to trouble.  Consequences
are always things that
his Mother has to explain to him after the fact and
that’s a deadly habit.

I thought several times that he had crossed the line
one too many times and
he finally did pull the final transgression.  He is
almost a little kid in
his reactions to his apprehension.

He took the Ibogaine over a period of  about 4 hours
and did very well.  He
had his last dose of Methadone about 24 hours
before he ingested the Ibogaine. He first took a
test dose very light, (
about 100 mg.) to test for any alergic reaction.
He took about 1000 mg. at
about 8:00 AM, about half an hour after his test
dose.  He tolerated this
first dose very well.  Then
at about 12 noon he took his 2nd dose of about 1000
mg.  He seemed to
tolerate this fairly well and held it for more then
4 hours.

He held it for  2 hours and  another 2 hours before
he began to throw up.
However, since he passed the first
2 hours it was considered sufficient.  He had
retained the complete doses of
Ibogaine.  But we were able to get two
reefers (MArijuana) and they really settled him down
and he was O.K. from
then on.  He had the typical aftermath for several
days.  He went for 6 days
without any sign of withdrawel symptems.  However,
every day he kept talking
about getting to
the Methadone Clinic for his morning dose.   This
became an obsession with
him almost to point of desperation!!

So oan the 7th day he sneaked off and went to the
clinic and got re-instated
and got his dose.  He had been told that if he
missed 3 days he would be automatically cut-off from
his Methadone.  This
had become an obsession with him while
enduring the treatment period.  Well, he got his
Methadone and was
re-instated.  But he never did have any withdrawel
sickness.  After a couple of months he screwed up
again and was put back in
jail.  This time he was forced to go cold-
turkey and abstain totally from anything.  He was
very shocked to have no
withdrawel symptems while in jail.  He had
always had withdrawel sickness every time he was
back in jail.  He has been
jailed about 6 or 7 times in the last 10
years so he has had to go cold-turkey every time.
This was the first time
he had no withdrawel sickness..

Anyway, he got into drugs at the age of 12 and he is
24 now.  He started on
Marijuana for a couple of years.  He heard all the
government propanga about
the horrors of Marujuana and when he found out that
the propaganda was all
lies he tried
some hard stuff, (Morphine) and of course, he got
hooked right away and has
been on something ever since!!!

If the government would be honest about drugs there
would a lot fewer people
to experiment with them.  One thing you
cant do and that is try to fool kids!!  My Grandson
has a genius I.Q. and
was making straight A’s in the 10th grade when
he switched over and started using hard drugs.  He
simply dropped out of
school about half through the 10th grade.  Then
he started stealing anything he could get his hands
on to get his drugs.  It
has been a wide-awake, screaming night-mare
ever since!!!!

Hope this gives you and Andrea a good explanation.
Tommy Goodson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]
Date: May 29, 2002 at 6:22:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: addict@starpower.net
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, May 29, 2002 at 06:19:38PM -0400], [C h r i s ~ K e e l e y ,
|  MSW, LICSW] wrote:

| I admit fault about talking trash
| about someone I dont know
| However the hell
| and fire stuff
| 700 club
| Cult
| thats YOU
| as far as addicts finding a new way to LIVE
| I know NA works
| because its working for me
| people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie
| any addict can get clean
| and any way they choose to live is fine by me
| what ever floats your boat
| however when someone suffering asks me for help
| and they are addicts
| I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I know thats the best
| place
| for them

Otay . . .

That’s all super-fine and highly groovy.  I responded to you in private
already, but, having said alla whatchoo just wrote . . . I am absolutely
unclear how any of what you expressed has anything whatsoever to do with
your comments about me…  A person you do not know.

Again, perhaps the email exchange was cut up in some way, but if that was
it…  Basically . . . you went off.  Period.  Somebody said they liked
Vox, which they apparently found through your links, and . . .

Patrick

From: “C h r i s ~ K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW” <addict@starpower.net>
Subject: [Fwd: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox]
Date: May 29, 2002 at 6:19:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pat
I admit fault about talking trash
about someone I dont know
However the hell
and fire stuff
700 club
Cult
thats YOU
as far as addicts finding a new way to LIVE
I know NA works
because its working for me
people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie
any addict can get clean
and any way they choose to live is fine by me
what ever floats your boat
however when someone suffering asks me for help
and they are addicts
I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I know thats the best
place
for them
I have no complaints  with life today
Chris K


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

http://intervention.org/

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

From: “C h r i s ~ K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW” <addict@starpower.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 6:16:29 PM EDT
To: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Reply-To: addict@intervention.org

Pat
I admit fault about talking trash
about someone I dont know
However the hell
and fire stuff
700 club
Cult
thats YOU
as far as addicts finding a new way to LIVE
I know NA works
because its working for me
people who are addicted to drugs are living a lie
any addict can get clean
and any way they choose to live is fine by me
what ever floats your boat
however when someone suffering asks me for help
and they are addicts
I steer them towards Narcotics anonymous because I know thats the best place
for them
I have no complaints  with life today
Chris K

“Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote:

On [Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:13:19PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Reading this one more time, I don’t want to go on
| about this forever and I know we have this
| conversation not 2 weeks ago with the hate mail that
| arrives here. But this person’s web site
| intervention.org isn’t all crazy and negative. It’s a
| nice collection of links and art. Why does someone who
| looks like they are not some fundamentalist loonie and
| fills up his web site with love, love, recovery. Have
| such extremely negative things to say and gives off so
| much hate?
|
| Unless I missed something and there is some kind of
| major argument going on I would have thought better of
| this person.
|
| -carrie
|
|
| — Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
| > So much for support and compassion for your fellow
| > addict!
| >
| > — lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:
| > >
| > > Wow that’s cold!
| > >
| > > I don’t understand i found mindvox through your
| > links i thought it was
| > > beautiful then i read the writing and liked it
| > more. why do you link them if
| > > you don’t like them??? i’m lost.
| > >
| > > ls
| > >
| > > > Lauren
| > > >he’ll be back in the spoon
| > > >or dead
| > > >or in Jail
| > > >From what I have read he seems depressed
| > > >and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
| > methadone
| > > >anyway
| > > >have fun enjoy life
| > > >and recovery can be beyond
| > > >thats right beyond our wildest dreams
| > > >the more we give the more we get
| > > >love
| > > >chris k

<… cut …>

I’ve never met Chris, I’ve never spoken with Chris, I have never
interacted with Chris in any way whatsoever.  Although I do appreciate the
good wishes and positive vibes.  Giving is a wonderful thing, just be
careful when it spins around to that Getting part…

He’s simply working the 13th and 14th steps.

[13]: Talk shit about people you don’t know.

[14]: Everybody not of The Cult, is a Godless, heathen sinner, sure to
burn in the fires of hell for all eternity (this last part may be replaced
with the ever popular “jails, institutions and death” rant).

The tragedy is…  People who are attempting to end their drug dependence,
have to deal with this entire second tier of bullshit, disinformation, and
nonsense, when attempting to get “help.”  And that’s one helluva minefield
to navigate.  Welcome to the dark ages.

In conclusion, please do not cc this crap here.  I have more than enough
of it filling my mailbox as it is.  Thanks a bunch.

Chris: I have nothing negative to wish upon you.  You are already living
within the headspace you’ve created for yourself, which appears to be
cruel and unusual punishment.  If you have 2 minutes, and what that person
cc’d here, is not cut up in some way…  Read it back to yourself, and try
to make sense of it…  It’s about as reasonable as any given 5 minutes on
the 700 club, or <insert your favorite Hellfire and Damnation program
[Here]>.

| > > >he’ll be back in the spoon
| > > >or dead
| > > >or in Jail
| > > >From what I have read he seems depressed
| > > >and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
| > methadone
| > > >anyway
| > > >have fun enjoy life
| > > >and recovery can be beyond
| > > >thats right beyond our wildest dreams
| > > >the more we give the more we get
| > > >love
| > > >chris k

z00m,

Patrick


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

http://intervention.org/

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 5:57:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is a very astute observation.
To begin with, he links Mindvox. Obviously having seen it and the content. Lord knows why. Were I fresh out of psych 101 I would be more willing to open my mouth and insert my foot, but let’s let it go at he has his reasons that make sense to him.
Somebody finds Mindvox through his links and writes him a short positive note saying they enjoyed it and thought it was beautiful.
He responds the reason for this is because “Mindvox” is still on drugs.
They reply back another positive note saying the same thing and making a joke about where do they get those drugs.
He replies that Patrick will die soon or go to jail and is probably on methadone anyway.
This exchange has nothing to do with the 12 steps or recovery. It’s all ego. He doesn’t like you because he feels you are getting too much attention and this threatens him. And based on the credentials this person attaches to their name, that’s too bad for anyone in recovery he may come in contact with.
It’s a less then perfect world. Not everyone involved with stepwork, groups or therapy is like this. I am from a very different world and background then most of you and have found nothing but interesting information and a interesting group of people here.
Thanks to all of you. Peace and strength.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu> wrote:
> Unless I missed something and there is some kind of
> major argument going on I would have thought better of
> this person.

You obviously haven’t spent too much time around artists. Oh, I can see
the ecological fallacies lining themselves up right now, but a good chunk
of “artists” out there basically cannot stand for Another Person to get
more attention than they are getting at any given moment. One of my good
friends was co-chair of an art museum for a while, and I thought it was
going to be some window of opportunity to meet a bunch of “interesting”
people. Jesus Christ, was I wrong. The bulk of this scene consisted of a
bunch of no-talents who’d chosen the artistic route not through any
inherent talent; I found the Art School Student Archetype to replace
sarcasm as the last refuge of the witless. My favorite was this guy who
wore these Mr. Magoo glasses and wacky dime-store suits who was in his
mid-40’s, who only hung out with 18-20 year old art school students that
he was trying to screw (sad thing was that he had an 18 year old son of
his own)

My girlfriend liked to f*&k with him by just going up to him and start
talking about how someone else in the “scene” was so great, “oh, have you
met so-and-so yet, so-and-so is so interesting/talented” and just watch
him get visibly uncomfortable and agitated as someone else got more
attention than him. It was such a hilarious Pavlovian reaction; I’d stand
a few feet away and to an unaware passerby it would look like I was
laughing uncontrollably to myself.

If this guy is the one in the picture I clicked on I’m getting a pretty
good image – the “sensitive” New Age hairdo, et al. doesn’t fool me for a
second, buddy.

Art is borne out of some sort of neurosis, but interestingly enough, my
experience has generally been that the more mediocre the artist, the more
“artistic” (in a negative way) the individual in question chooses to act.
There was an _Onion_ article about this one time: “Mediocre Artist Very
Good At Acting Like An Artist.”

I would imagine that a lot of the prevalence of heroin addiction among
artists is in addition to a lot of them being very insufferable, insecure,
f#*&ed up individuals, they’ve bought into the Heroin Archetype. You
know, I must do the Ultimately Supreme Destructive Act to myself because
this Ultimate Parallel must exist in order to destroy the Supreme Artistic
Beauty That Is Myself. There can be no Light without Darkness, but a lot
of this “light” was little more than a small candle’s worth to begin with;
you’re really just strumming power chords in your parents’ garage, even if
it is Seattle and it’s 1991.

Jonathan

>
> -carrie
>
>
> — Gamma wrote:
> > So much for support and compassion for your fellow
> > addict!
> >
> > — lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Wow that’s cold!
> > >
> > > I don’t understand i found mindvox through your
> > links i thought it was
> > > beautiful then i read the writing and liked it
> > more. why do you link them if
> > > you don’t like them??? i’m lost.
> > >
> > > ls
> > >
> > > > Lauren
> > > >he’ll be back in the spoon
> > > >or dead
> > > >or in Jail
> > > >From what I have read he seems depressed
> > > >and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
> > methadone
> > > >anyway
> > > >have fun enjoy life
> > > >and recovery can be beyond
> > > >thats right beyond our wildest dreams
> > > >the more we give the more we get
> > > >love
> > > >chris k
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ? That one guy is at psychedelics conferences
> > and neuroscience conferences
> > > all over the place talking about ibogaine. I don’t
> > think he’s on heroin
> > > anyway.
> > > >
> > > > All I can say is what drugs is he on and WHERE
> > do I get them!? 🙂
> > > >
> > > > All drugs ever did for me was make me do things
> > I didn’t want to do and end
> > > up miserable. I never got any of what he’s
> > getting, unless he’s doing all
> > > that despite the drugs, which is amazing.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks either way! Have a great day.
> > > >
> > > > ls
> > > >
> > > > > Mindvox is still on drugs
> > > > >which is probably why its so mind blowing
> > > > >best
> > > > >chris k
> > > > >
> > > > >lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, I found your site through some NA listings
> > and through your sites
> > > surrealism links found Mindvox. Wow! That thing is
> > one of the weirdest, most
> > > beautiful and confusing things I have ever seen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you! That was mind blowing! 🙂
> > > >
> > > > ——————–
> > > > talk21 your FREE portable and private address on
> > the net at
> > > Target=’_new’
> > >
> >
> Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.talk21.com’>http://www.talk21.com
> > > >
> > > >–
> > > >Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>
> > > >
> > > >C h r i s K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
> > > >I n t e r v e n t i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n
> > > >4000 Tunlaw Road NW # 1119
> > > >Washington D.C. 20007-4838 U . S . A .
> > > >
> > > >Phone : ( 202 ) 3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
> > > >F A X : ( 202 ) 3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
> > > >C E L L : ( 202 ) 6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6
> > > >
> > > >mailto:addict@earthlink.net
> > > >work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://intervention.org/’>http://intervention.org/
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >**********************************************************************
> > > >
> > > >This email and any files transmitted with it are
> > confidential
> > > > and intended solely for the use of the
> > individual or entity to
> > > > whom they are addressed. If you have received
> > this email
> > > > in error, please notify the sender by email and
> > delete and
> > > > destroy this message and its attachments.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >**********************************************************************
> > >
> > > ——————–
> > > talk21 your FREE portable and private address on
> > the net at
> > > http://www.talk21.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 5:08:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Unless I missed something and there is some kind of
major argument going on I would have thought better of
this person.

You obviously haven’t spent too much time around artists.  Oh, I can see
the ecological fallacies lining themselves up right now, but a good chunk
of “artists” out there basically cannot stand for Another Person to get
more attention than they are getting at any given moment.  One of my good
friends was co-chair of an art museum for a while, and I thought it was
going to be some window of opportunity to meet a bunch of “interesting”
people.  Jesus Christ, was I wrong.  The bulk of this scene consisted of a
bunch of no-talents who’d chosen the artistic route not through any
inherent talent; I found the Art School Student Archetype to replace
sarcasm as the last refuge of the witless.  My favorite was this guy who
wore these Mr.  Magoo glasses and wacky dime-store suits who was in his
mid-40’s, who only hung out with 18-20 year old art school students that
he was trying to screw (sad thing was that he had an 18 year old son of
his own)

My girlfriend liked to f*&k with him by just going up to him and start
talking about how someone else in the “scene” was so great, “oh, have you
met so-and-so yet, so-and-so is so interesting/talented” and just watch
him get visibly uncomfortable and agitated as someone else got more
attention than him.  It was such a hilarious Pavlovian reaction; I’d stand
a few feet away and to an unaware passerby it would look like I was
laughing uncontrollably to myself.

If this guy is the one in the picture I clicked on I’m getting a pretty
good image – the “sensitive” New Age hairdo, et al. doesn’t fool me for a
second, buddy.

Art is borne out of some sort of neurosis, but interestingly enough, my
experience has generally been that the more mediocre the artist, the more
“artistic” (in a negative way) the individual in question chooses to act.
There was an _Onion_ article about this one time: “Mediocre Artist Very
Good At Acting Like An Artist.”

I would imagine that a lot of the prevalence of heroin addiction among
artists is in addition to a lot of them being very insufferable, insecure,
f#*&ed up individuals, they’ve bought into the Heroin Archetype.  You
know, I must do the Ultimately Supreme Destructive Act to myself because
this Ultimate Parallel must exist in order to destroy the Supreme Artistic
Beauty That Is Myself.  There can be no Light without Darkness, but a lot
of this “light” was little more than a small candle’s worth to begin with;
you’re really just strumming power chords in your parents’ garage, even if
it is Seattle and it’s 1991.

Jonathan

-carrie

— Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
So much for support and compassion for your fellow
addict!

— lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Wow that’s cold!

I don’t understand i found mindvox through your
links i thought it was
beautiful then i read the writing and liked it
more. why do you link them if
you don’t like them??? i’m lost.

ls

Lauren
he’ll be back in the spoon
or dead
or in Jail
From what I have read he seems depressed
and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
methadone
anyway
have fun enjoy life
and recovery can be beyond
thats right beyond our wildest dreams
the more we give the more we get
love
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

? That one guy is at psychedelics conferences
and neuroscience conferences
all over the place talking about ibogaine. I don’t
think he’s on heroin
anyway.

All I can say is what drugs is he on and WHERE
do I get them!? 🙂

All drugs ever did for me was make me do things
I didn’t want to do and end
up miserable. I never got any of what he’s
getting, unless he’s doing all
that despite the drugs, which is amazing.

Thanks either way! Have a great day.

ls

Mindvox is still on drugs
which is probably why its so mind blowing
best
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Hi, I found your site through some NA listings
and through your sites
surrealism links found Mindvox. Wow! That thing is
one of the weirdest, most
beautiful and confusing things I have ever seen.

Thank you! That was mind blowing! 🙂

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on
the net at <a
Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.talk21.com’>http://www.talk21.com</a>


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

<a Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://intervention.org/’>http://intervention.org/</a>

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential
and intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received
this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and
delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on
the net at
http://www.talk21.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] There we go…
Date: May 29, 2002 at 5:04:17 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Art, pretty, melty, true.

http://www.phantom.com/banners/aakills.jpg

I feel much better,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] map of the ibogaine world
Date: May 29, 2002 at 4:53:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, May 29, 2002 at 01:32:32PM -0700], [Brett Calabrese] wrote:

| Really, who needs drugs with a search engine like
| that??? Very VERY strange (not quite Patrick strange
| though), I like it.
|

Hey Brett, I’ll give them HELPFUL INPUT and INSIGHTS…

It is highly neat0.

Patrick

p.s., Yo Marko! =)

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 4:48:44 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: addict@intervention.org
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:13:19PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Reading this one more time, I don’t want to go on
| about this forever and I know we have this
| conversation not 2 weeks ago with the hate mail that
| arrives here. But this person’s web site
| intervention.org isn’t all crazy and negative. It’s a
| nice collection of links and art. Why does someone who
| looks like they are not some fundamentalist loonie and
| fills up his web site with love, love, recovery. Have
| such extremely negative things to say and gives off so
| much hate?
|
| Unless I missed something and there is some kind of
| major argument going on I would have thought better of
| this person.
|
| -carrie
|
|
| — Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
| > So much for support and compassion for your fellow
| > addict!
| >
| > — lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:
| > >
| > > Wow that’s cold!
| > >
| > > I don’t understand i found mindvox through your
| > links i thought it was
| > > beautiful then i read the writing and liked it
| > more. why do you link them if
| > > you don’t like them??? i’m lost.
| > >
| > > ls
| > >
| > > > Lauren
| > > >he’ll be back in the spoon
| > > >or dead
| > > >or in Jail
| > > >From what I have read he seems depressed
| > > >and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
| > methadone
| > > >anyway
| > > >have fun enjoy life
| > > >and recovery can be beyond
| > > >thats right beyond our wildest dreams
| > > >the more we give the more we get
| > > >love
| > > >chris k

<… cut …>

I’ve never met Chris, I’ve never spoken with Chris, I have never
interacted with Chris in any way whatsoever.  Although I do appreciate the
good wishes and positive vibes.  Giving is a wonderful thing, just be
careful when it spins around to that Getting part…

He’s simply working the 13th and 14th steps.

[13]: Talk shit about people you don’t know.

[14]: Everybody not of The Cult, is a Godless, heathen sinner, sure to
burn in the fires of hell for all eternity (this last part may be replaced
with the ever popular “jails, institutions and death” rant).

The tragedy is…  People who are attempting to end their drug dependence,
have to deal with this entire second tier of bullshit, disinformation, and
nonsense, when attempting to get “help.”  And that’s one helluva minefield
to navigate.  Welcome to the dark ages.

In conclusion, please do not cc this crap here.  I have more than enough
of it filling my mailbox as it is.  Thanks a bunch.

Chris: I have nothing negative to wish upon you.  You are already living
within the headspace you’ve created for yourself, which appears to be
cruel and unusual punishment.  If you have 2 minutes, and what that person
cc’d here, is not cut up in some way…  Read it back to yourself, and try
to make sense of it…  It’s about as reasonable as any given 5 minutes on
the 700 club, or <insert your favorite Hellfire and Damnation program
[Here]>.

| > > >he’ll be back in the spoon
| > > >or dead
| > > >or in Jail
| > > >From what I have read he seems depressed
| > > >and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
| > methadone
| > > >anyway
| > > >have fun enjoy life
| > > >and recovery can be beyond
| > > >thats right beyond our wildest dreams
| > > >the more we give the more we get
| > > >love
| > > >chris k

z00m,

Patrick

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] map of the ibogaine world
Date: May 29, 2002 at 4:32:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Really, who needs drugs with a search engine like
that??? Very VERY strange (not quite Patrick strange
though), I like it.

Brett

:
— Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is too neat! Thanks!

-carrie

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/28/02 11:48:58 PM,
ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU writes:

<< Try a search for ibogaine on

http://www.kartoo.com

Bill Ross

Fantastic!  I’m going to pass it to the calyx
ibogaine list and a few others.

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 3:13:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Reading this one more time, I don’t want to go on
about this forever and I know we have this
conversation not 2 weeks ago with the hate mail that
arrives here. But this person’s web site
intervention.org isn’t all crazy and negative. It’s a
nice collection of links and art. Why does someone who
looks like they are not some fundamentalist loonie and
fills up his web site with love, love, recovery. Have
such extremely negative things to say and gives off so
much hate?

Unless I missed something and there is some kind of
major argument going on I would have thought better of
this person.

-carrie

— Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
So much for support and compassion for your fellow
addict!

— lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Wow that’s cold!

I don’t understand i found mindvox through your
links i thought it was
beautiful then i read the writing and liked it
more. why do you link them if
you don’t like them??? i’m lost.

ls

Lauren
he’ll be back in the spoon
or dead
or in Jail
From what I have read he seems depressed
and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
methadone
anyway
have fun enjoy life
and recovery can be beyond
thats right beyond our wildest dreams
the more we give the more we get
love
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

? That one guy is at psychedelics conferences
and neuroscience conferences
all over the place talking about ibogaine. I don’t
think he’s on heroin
anyway.

All I can say is what drugs is he on and WHERE
do I get them!? 🙂

All drugs ever did for me was make me do things
I didn’t want to do and end
up miserable. I never got any of what he’s
getting, unless he’s doing all
that despite the drugs, which is amazing.

Thanks either way! Have a great day.

ls

Mindvox is still on drugs
which is probably why its so mind blowing
best
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Hi, I found your site through some NA listings
and through your sites
surrealism links found Mindvox. Wow! That thing is
one of the weirdest, most
beautiful and confusing things I have ever seen.

Thank you! That was mind blowing! 🙂

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on
the net at <a
Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.talk21.com’>http://www.talk21.com</a>


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

<a Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://intervention.org/’>http://intervention.org/</a>

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential
and intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received
this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and
delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

——————–
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the net at
http://www.talk21.com

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: [ibogaine] life
Date: May 29, 2002 at 3:06:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi everybody,

Life is SOOOOOO beautiful !!!!!!!!!

(just in case someone forgot this!)

;-))

Marko

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] map of the ibogaine world
Date: May 29, 2002 at 3:04:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is too neat! Thanks!

-carrie

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/28/02 11:48:58 PM,
ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU writes:

<< Try a search for ibogaine on

http://www.kartoo.com

Bill Ross

Fantastic!  I’m going to pass it to the calyx
ibogaine list and a few others.

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 2:40:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I go to groups off and on and think they help me. One
of the main reasons I never stay long at any of them
is people like this.

That was really cold. And I just looked, he does link
Mindvox under his surrealism links from
intervention.org

Patrick no offense, I love ya, but sometimes you are
very agressive and obnoxious. That could be fun in
person 😉 But if this is what the 12 step people act
like to you, then all I can say is you are very
restrained. For being you you’re very very very very
very restrained. To say it again and repeat what
lauren said wow. That was cold.

Do you know this person at intervention.org?

-carrie

— Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
So much for support and compassion for your fellow
addict!

— lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Wow that’s cold!

I don’t understand i found mindvox through your
links i thought it was
beautiful then i read the writing and liked it
more. why do you link them if
you don’t like them??? i’m lost.

ls

Lauren
he’ll be back in the spoon
or dead
or in Jail
From what I have read he seems depressed
and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on
methadone
anyway
have fun enjoy life
and recovery can be beyond
thats right beyond our wildest dreams
the more we give the more we get
love
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

? That one guy is at psychedelics conferences
and neuroscience conferences
all over the place talking about ibogaine. I don’t
think he’s on heroin
anyway.

All I can say is what drugs is he on and WHERE
do I get them!? 🙂

All drugs ever did for me was make me do things
I didn’t want to do and end
up miserable. I never got any of what he’s
getting, unless he’s doing all
that despite the drugs, which is amazing.

Thanks either way! Have a great day.

ls

Mindvox is still on drugs
which is probably why its so mind blowing
best
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Hi, I found your site through some NA listings
and through your sites
surrealism links found Mindvox. Wow! That thing is
one of the weirdest, most
beautiful and confusing things I have ever seen.

Thank you! That was mind blowing! 🙂

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on
the net at <a
Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.talk21.com’>http://www.talk21.com</a>


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

<a Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://intervention.org/’>http://intervention.org/</a>

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential
and intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received
this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and
delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on
the net at
http://www.talk21.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 2:24:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, addict@intervention.org
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So much for support and compassion for your fellow addict!

— lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Wow that’s cold!

I don’t understand i found mindvox through your links i thought it was
beautiful then i read the writing and liked it more. why do you link them if
you don’t like them??? i’m lost.

ls

Lauren
he’ll be back in the spoon
or dead
or in Jail
From what I have read he seems depressed
and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on methadone
anyway
have fun enjoy life
and recovery can be beyond
thats right beyond our wildest dreams
the more we give the more we get
love
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

? That one guy is at psychedelics conferences and neuroscience conferences
all over the place talking about ibogaine. I don’t think he’s on heroin
anyway.

All I can say is what drugs is he on and WHERE do I get them!? 🙂

All drugs ever did for me was make me do things I didn’t want to do and end
up miserable. I never got any of what he’s getting, unless he’s doing all
that despite the drugs, which is amazing.

Thanks either way! Have a great day.

ls

Mindvox is still on drugs
which is probably why its so mind blowing
best
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Hi, I found your site through some NA listings and through your sites
surrealism links found Mindvox. Wow! That thing is one of the weirdest, most
beautiful and confusing things I have ever seen.

Thank you! That was mind blowing! 🙂

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at <a
Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.talk21.com’>http://www.talk21.com</a>


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

<a Target=’_new’

Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://intervention.org/’>http://intervention.org/</a>

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at
http://www.talk21.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: lauren_saunders@talk21.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: May 29, 2002 at 2:08:33 PM EDT
To: addict@intervention.org
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow that’s cold!

I don’t understand i found mindvox through your links i thought it was beautiful then i read the writing and liked it more. why do you link them if you don’t like them??? i’m lost.

ls

Lauren
he’ll be back in the spoon
or dead
or in Jail
From what I have read he seems depressed
and I wwouldnt be suprized if he isnt on methadone
anyway
have fun enjoy life
and recovery can be beyond
thats right beyond our wildest dreams
the more we give the more we get
love
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

? That one guy is at psychedelics conferences and neuroscience conferences all over the place talking about ibogaine. I don’t think he’s on heroin anyway.

All I can say is what drugs is he on and WHERE do I get them!? 🙂

All drugs ever did for me was make me do things I didn’t want to do and end up miserable. I never got any of what he’s getting, unless he’s doing all that despite the drugs, which is amazing.

Thanks either way! Have a great day.

ls

Mindvox is still on drugs
which is probably why its so mind blowing
best
chris k

lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

Hi, I found your site through some NA listings and through your sites surrealism links found Mindvox. Wow! That thing is one of the weirdest, most beautiful and confusing things I have ever seen.

Thank you! That was mind blowing! 🙂

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at <a Target=’_new’ Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.talk21.com’>http://www.talk21.com</a>


Have a Wonderful Day , Keep in Touch [:-)>

C h r i s   K e e l e y , MSW, LICSW
I n t e r v e n t i o n   O r g a n i z a t i o n
4000  Tunlaw Road   NW  # 1119
Washington  D.C.  20007-4838 U . S . A .

Phone  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 0 0 2 2
F A X  :  ( 202 )  3 3 7 . 4 4 4 1
C E L L : ( 202 )  6 0 7 . 4 4 6 6

mailto:addict@earthlink.net
work-email mailto:ckeeley@cfsa-dc.org

<a Target=’_new’ Href=’https://www.orangatango.com/rw/http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://intervention.org/’>http://intervention.org/</a>

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email
in error, please notify the sender by email and delete and
destroy this message and its attachments.

**********************************************************************

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] map of the ibogaine world
Date: May 29, 2002 at 1:10:40 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 5/28/02 11:48:58 PM, ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU writes:

<< Try a search for ibogaine on

http://www.kartoo.com

Bill Ross

Fantastic!  I’m going to pass it to the calyx ibogaine list and a few others.

Howard

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: [ibogaine] map of the ibogaine world
Date: May 28, 2002 at 11:48:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Try a search for ibogaine on

http://www.kartoo.com

Bill Ross

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 28, 2002 at 6:18:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know. The people here who usually answer that
question haven’t said anything. I think it might be a
good idea to have a physical or a heart stress test
too.

I think it’d be hard for any of the people who usually
answer that question 🙂 to give a yes or no answer
based only on what information you gave.

-carrie

— Christina Kester <poppy_1974@hotmail.com> wrote:

I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using
ibogaine this summer. i’ve had
hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable
viral load, and my liver
enzymes have remained in the normal range for the
past year. Do you think i
have anything to worry about?
Poppy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 28, 2002 at 6:01:40 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks kindly.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carrie Rollins” <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House

This was the message about the ice halo. I found it.

-carrie

— vector6@space.com wrote:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/3284810.htm

It’s armageddon or some impressive ice halo 30,000
feet in the air.

.:vector:.

On Fri, 17 May 2002, “preston peet” wrote

ok, I’ll bite, what’s this about something floating
in front of the sun?
That’s twice now.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored
by Samaritan House

On [Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:18:44PM -0600],
[JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG] wrote:

| Miami is the one major city in N. America that
I’ve never been to,

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 28, 2002 at 6:01:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Peptol Bismol binge? Egad, that sounds like loads of fun. Whatever possessed
you? Pepto Bismal does not get one high, to the best of my knowledge. ;-)))
Peace,
Preston

Shhh its a secret. if you mix it with the correct mdma uptake inhibitor and
read 20 pages of that science fiction type guy Mr. Dick while sitting in the
lotus position and channeling the golden light thru your third eye you will
feel something.

pass the pepto!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 28, 2002 at 6:00:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks to you and DB for the answer 🙂

Everyone I’ve shown it to for the first time trips
out. It takes going back and forth a few times to
understand what it’s doing.

Thanks!

-carrie

— fuak <fuak@nirvanet.net> wrote:
instead of removing just your card they replace them
all
===== Original Message From HSLotsof@aol.com =====
In a message dated 5/26/02 8:22:28 AM,
carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp2.html

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for the tip on an interesting page.

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 28, 2002 at 5:59:00 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This was the message about the ice halo. I found it.

-carrie

— vector6@space.com wrote:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/3284810.htm

It’s armageddon or some impressive ice halo 30,000
feet in the air.

.:vector:.

On Fri, 17 May 2002, “preston peet” wrote

ok, I’ll bite, what’s this about something floating
in front of the sun?
That’s twice now.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored
by Samaritan House

On [Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:18:44PM -0600],
[JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG] wrote:

| Miami is the one major city in N. America that
I’ve never been to,

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] when?
Date: May 28, 2002 at 4:18:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sat, May 25, 2002 at 04:55:28PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=Sacred/Resurrection.htm
|
| What is the real deal, is Mindvox opening soon? Things

Yes.

| keep changing and being added but none of ya ever
| announce anything. Please? I’m asking nicely 😉
|
| Agrippa won’t load for me 🙁

Write a complaint to William Gibson.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Brief Update Type Thing
Date: May 28, 2002 at 1:06:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To all the people who have landed here in the last week or so:

This is not MindVox, this is the ibogaine list.  When Vox relights, the
list will be accessible from within the interface, or you can continue
using it exactly as you are right now — from whatever mail client or web
mail service you make use of.  The main difference between the two, is
that the Vox interface offers a much greater range of commands, options,
features, bugs, pretty graphics, threading based on name, date, topic,
whatever, and filters to nonexist people you never want to hear from
again.

If you want a general list of options and features, send to:

ibogaine-help@mindvox.com

To get OFF this list:
ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com

To obtain previous messages from the archive, you need to request them in
groups of 100.  So, for instance, to get messages 1 to 99, you’d send mail
like this:

ibogaine-get.1_99@mindvox.com

It’ll send 1 through 99 in one large digest.

To repeat that, for instance for 100 to 199, you’d do:

ibogaine-get.100_199@mindvox.com

We’re around message 900 sumthin’ right now.

A complete list of all the commands exists in help, which, to repeat:

ibogaine-help@mindvox.com

– – – – – – – – –

I haven’t read this list in a few days, and my mailbox has roughly 450
letters, which I am sifting through RIGHT NOW.  So if ya sent me email,
I’m getting there, I’m gettin’ there, I’m… gettin’ some coffee and
hitting “D”elete a lot.

God bless us all, everyone.  Or did sumbody already say that…

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (explaination for halo in Miami last week?) Fw: [CIA-DRUGS] Sundog
Date: May 28, 2002 at 12:01:03 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think vector posted the url? It was
some newspaper in florida, I don’t remember which.
I’ll try to find it in my mail, I have a ibogaine
mailbox folder.<

Can’t remember who posted the url, but yes, it was a florida paper, and I
still can’t find it.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carrie Rollins” <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (explaination for halo in Miami last week?) Fw:
[CIA-DRUGS] Sundog

I remember that, I think vector posted the url? It was
some newspaper in florida, I don’t remember which.
I’ll try to find it in my mail, I have a ibogaine
mailbox folder.

The world is a weird place right now. One of the
reasons I feel at home here 🙂

-carrie

— Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Hi all,
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ibogaine,
but what with the photos
and wonder out of Miami last week, (Sun Halo/UFO),
I know, natural reaction to these chem-trail
stories is usually to say,
at least for me, “Oh yeah, sure, right” but lately
I’m finding myself
wondering which is up, which is down, and just
what the US government really
is up to. Not that this is exactly new wonder, but
I am not as skeptical
suddenly of some of the seemingly kookier ideas.

Pretty Freaky.

begin twilight zone soundtrack…

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: [ibogaine] Not for potheads
Date: May 28, 2002 at 12:05:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Potheads are a running joke between me and my fiancee here; this just
about hit the nail on the head.

from
http://www.wweek.com/flatfiles/allstories.lasso?xxin=2799
I want America to legalize the use of marijuana. The sooner the better.

It’s not because I smoke pot. I don’t, for the same reason I don’t
repeatedly beat myself in the head with a shovel: As a general rule, I try
not to make myself verifiably more stupid.

It’s also not because I think other people should smoke pot; I really
don’t, especially when it comes to teenagers. We live in a country where
only 11 percent of high-school seniors are ranked proficient in U.S.
history; they don’t need to get any more stupid, either.

My desire to make marijuana free and legal is also not because of my
concern about draconian mandatory-drug-sentencing laws, which can throw
pot smokers into the joint to become the quivering fresh luncheon meat in
a prison shower sandwich.

There’s only one reason that I want adults to be able to toke up in the
U.S., anywhere, any time:

If pot’s legal, it’ll kill pot culture.

Once pot is legal, the decades-old fetish culture that has sprung up
around weed will last about as long as a community joint on the 20th of
April. This is an excellent thing, since pot culture has contributed
exactly two positive things to the world: Reggae music and Ben & Jerry’s
Cherry Garcia ice cream.

This is in opposition to all the hateful things it has unleashed: Jam
bands. Floppy knitted hats. Rusted-out Volkwagen vans. Scraggly beards.
White men with dreadlocks. Hacky Sack. Multicolored vests from Guatemala.
High Times magazine. Radio ads with vague references to “smokables.”
Synching up Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon with The Wizard of Oz. “I
didn’t inhale.” Deadheads. Parrotheads. Phish-heads. The Spin Doctors.
Cypress Hill. The Black Crowes. The HORDE Tours. Rap songs about blunts.
Dude, Where’s My Car? Cheech & Chong’s The Corsican Brothers. Half Baked.
Woody Harrelson. For God’s sake, Woody friggin’ Harrelson.

All of these go away the day pot becomes legal. And so we must free
marijuana from the resin-stained wretches who are currently its
keepers–and make it so mainstream that nobody ever finds a reason to talk
about it again.

That’s the problem, you see. Pot fans are mind-numbing fanatics. Talking
to a pot aficionado is like playing a drug-related version of “Six Degrees
of Kevin Bacon,” minus five degrees. Sooner than later, everything comes
back to pot.

Well, here’s a news flash for stoners (read slowly, now): Talking about
pot bores the shit out of the rest of us. Oh, sure, you think it’s
interesting. But, look, you’re fucking stoned.

Legalizing pot takes it all off the table. Pot decriminalization? Who
cares? It’ll be legal. Closet horticulture? Useless information when you
can grow pot next to the azaleas. Hemp, the supercrop? Well, aside from
the discussion about whether America actually needs another major
agricultural crop (Congress just spent $180 billion to prop up the
overproducing farmers we already have), talking about hemp will be like
talking about soybeans. No one talks about soybeans.

Even medical marijuana–the one argument pot smokers make that’s not
transparently about their own desire to toke up–stops being an issue.
You’ll be able to take two hits and call your doctor in the morning. The
stoners will have to find something else to talk about.

Good luck with that.

You may think it’s asinine to legalize pot simply to squash stoner culture
and make potheads change the subject. But just think–if it works, we can
use this strategy in other ways to make life more pleasant for the rest of
us. Today the tokers, tomorrow PETA. Hell, I’d happily go vegetarian to
have the lot of them drowned in a sack.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 28, 2002 at 11:56:45 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu> wrote:
FYI, I think these drugs (modafinil/adafinil [sp])
are not legal in the
U.S, or at least the former was according to
antiaging-systems.com.

They are (generally) not legal to prescribe, they are
legal to import for personal use. So, no you will not
find a doctor or pharmacy in the USA
selling/prescribing piracetam (or most nootropics) but
it is perfectly legal to purchase overseas and use in
the USA. modafinil is controlled in the USA (schedule
IV if I recall correctly), that does not make it
“illegal”. Where on antiaging-systems.com does it say
this? I can order modafinil from them but “they”
require a prescription from “my” doctor, it can be
ordered elsewhere without one being sent though some
companies may issue a prescription on their side – I
don’t know the details/fine print/ways around, I do
know it can be done legally.
Brett

Personally, as someone with borderline ADD, I find
that the occasional
Phentermine capsule substitutes for any sort of
amphetamine VERY nicely.
(I can’t get Dexies unfortunately, or fortunately,
depending on the way
you look at it.)  You build up a tolerance VERY
quickly to these though;
you almost have to double your dose every day to get
the same effect, but
watch out for that dizziness.  My girlfriend, who is
non-ADD prone, finds
they make her jittery, at least on the first couple
of days.

I can’t find much bad to say about these, other than
that they are
potentially habit forming and they’re supposedly
(read contradictory
things) an MAOI, which I would confirm.  I have an
acute caffeine
toxicity, and if I take one within 48 hours of
having a Carmel Macchiato
at Starbucks the effects are very intense & not
terribly pleasurable –
streaming pits, dizziness, etc.  Of course, after
three or so days on an
L.A. celebrity diet (baby carrots, bottled water,
Phentermine and valerian
root) it’s more than likely I’m just malnourished.
(Hey, my weight always
shows up on my face first, and I gotta look good for
my 10 year reunion
here in a couple of weeks) 😉

If anyone has any refs for this, please pass ’em
along.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Mon, 27 May 2002, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
wrote:

Tried to get Provigil but you need a credit card
that I don’t have so that
was the end of that
Thanx for the Info anyway, perhaps one of my
buddies over here can help, I’m
sure getting to the point where I need my brain
enhanced
This Social Policy stuff can get tres complicated

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese
[mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 19:14
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among
other things

What’s Nootropic Brett?

Short version, brain enhancing drugs, Also called
smart-drugs. Generally they increase one or more
of
the following; memory, attention, cognitive
ability,
clearity and may enhance mood and have anti-aging
properties. They are usually pretty tame stuff,
some
such as deprenyl are tame in and of themselves but
are
MAOI-B (I think, they are OK with cheese/wine but
conflict with some drugs) and will in fact give
you a
positive for SPEED as the prime metabolite is
methamphetamine (might be some other kind of speed
but
don’t think so) – not that I ever felt any “speed”
from it. Many of them mix very well and many
people
wind up mixing them without knowledge and get some
strange reactions, usually pretty harmless. They
usually (and some may require it) mix well with
choline products (eg lecithin), better read-up
before
trying any.

These are usually over the counter stuff,
non-controlled drugs, drugs available legally from
overseas. Some products are natural, many are not.

see

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml

brett

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St,
London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese
[mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 14:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among
other things

You could say that. Phenylalanine for instance
helps
calm the nerves, ginsing helps with fatigue and
when
I
am in physical pain, a pain reliever sure
changes
how
I feel/state of mind. Not all of it for the good
if
it
is a narcotic pain reliever or other drug with a
negative side effect, they are however intert
addiction-wise. What matters is the
thought/reason
behind why I do things and not so much the thing
itself. There is (for instance) no druggie type
“seeking” behind taking a pain med, nootropic or
Yoga.
Once upon a time I chased anything, drugs, women
(that
was fun), job, hobbie… the chase is over.

or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re
always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Anything we do alters the state of mind. I abuse
Yoga
regularly, it alters my state of mind, so does
coffee,
nicotine, the ever popular SEX, an apple, a
sunny or
dreary day affects how how I feel but I am not
consumed by them. The difference is if I do
things
addictively (and the thought behind it) or not
and
the
effect it has on me that (to me) is important.

I remember being at an AA meeting and the
subject of
non-alcoholic beer came up. The hard core AA’ers
go
with the theme non-alcoholic beer if for
non-alcoholics. If one is going into a bar to
sit
with
“friends” and think they can get away with only
drinking non-alcoholic beer they are fooling
themselves and exercising/toying with their
addiction.
If it “matters” to have it, if it is important,
if
it
is saying “NO” to drinking alcohol (and feeling
of
lacking), it ain’t a good thing. I drink it
because
I
like it, couldn’t care less one way or the other
if
I
had it, wouldn’t want to sit in a bar drinking
near-beer (and trying not to want a real
one…).
Last
one was a few months ago, before that, lets see,
2,
no
3 years ago. It matters if it matters, the trick
is
to
see that and not do things that do.

Brett

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying.
Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 28, 2002 at 11:33:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanx Bill, that Q-10 Coenzyme sounds like just the ticket, not too
psychoactive but a bit of a lift during this stressful time

The Amazonian herbal Maca might also be useful in this way.

Bill

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: [ibogaine] [stormwatch] Fwd: Grandma Beats Up Airport Security Guards (fwd)
Date: May 28, 2002 at 11:32:29 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Again, off topic, but if this is true, this is the funniest goddamn thing
I have read all year, and gives me some hope for the future.

———————-

All indications point to this article being legit – I sure hope it’s true.

<http://www.lewrockwell.com/wallace/wallace42.html>http://www.lewrockwell.com/wallace/wallace42.html

May 27, 2002

Grandma Beats Up Airport Security Guards
by Bob Wallace
bob.wallace@att.net

Charges were dropped yesterday against Ruth “Grammy” Gordon, an 83-year-old
wheelchair-bound grandmother, who was originally charged with assault and
battery, and assault with a deadly weapon, because an altercation she had
last week with six airport security guards, that left all six hospitalized.

“Justice has been served,” said the 95-pound mother of three and
grandmother
of six, as she sat in her wheelchair, aided in her breathing by an oxygen
bottle. “Now I知 going to sue every fool in the federal government for
ignorance, stupidity, and just plain general incompetence. I知 an American,
and I won稚 be treated like this.”

The problem began last month as Gordon was attempting to board an airplane.
“These guys are supposed to be some kind of professionals,” she said, “but
they池e dumber than rocks. Here they were letting guys who looked just like
terrorists walk through without searching them, and then they pull me aside
and tell me they池e going to search me? I don稚 think so.”

According to one witness, Bud Cort of Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, one guard, “who
weighed about 300 pounds, looked like he was drunk, and had his shirt out,
told this woman she couldn稚 board the plane unless they searched her. He
was really rude. That痴 when the trouble started.”

Videotapes showed that Gordon ran the guard down with her motorized
wheelchair, then sat on top of the screaming man while spinning her
chair in
circles. “Doofus was so fat he couldn稚 get up,” said Gordon with a giggle.

One guard who attempted to pull Gordon痴 wheelchair off of the
screaming man
from behind was hit over the head with an oxygen bottle and knocked
unconscious. A third guard, who approached Gordon from the front, was also
left dazed on the floor. Witnesses said she was cackling, “Put your
hands on
an old lady, will you?” as she bashed both guards.

The tape also showed a fourth guard attempting to grab Gordon痴 wheelchair.
Gordon removed a knitting needle from her purse and stabbed him in his left
buttock. “What a wimp,” she told reporters. “He started screaming and
grabbing his butt and running like a puppy that someone kicked.”

“It was amazing,” said another witness, a Scott Ryan. “The whole crowd just
stood there cheering and clapping. I mean, she was whupping butt.”

A fifth guard that attempted to grab Gordon had the seat of his pants
set on
fire with a cigarette lighter than had escaped detection. “He just went
whoosh across the concourse, screaming and slapping at all these flames
flying out of his rear,” said Ryan.

A sixth guard did finally manage to get Gordon in a body hug. “I think that
was the wrong thing to do,” said another witness, who declined to be
identified. “She just grabbed him by his greasy hair with one hand and
cracked him across the jaw with her skinny fist. And down and out he went.”

After all this, Gordon痴 chair was still sitting on top of the first guard.
The tapes clearly showed her leaning over and yelling, “Apologize to
me, you
fat sumbitch, or when I知 done with you you値l just be a greasy spot on the
floor!”

As the crowd roared, the guard cried, “I知 sorry, I知 sorry! Uncle! I won稚
do it again!”

Finally, Gordon surrendered without further incident, and was taken to jail
and released on her own recognizance. “We didn稚 have any choice,” said an
unidentified officer of the court. “Over 200 people showed up to support
her. I think if we had demanded bail, there would have been a riot.”

Over 20 lawyers offered to defend her for free. However, realizing the
precariousness of the case, Gordon was not charged with anything. “I doubt
there痴 a jury in the whole country that would have found her guilty of
anything,” said one of the lawyers.

“I知 flying again tomorrow,” Gordon told reporters. “And I suggest no
one at
the airport so much as look at me wrong.”

Bob Wallace, a former newspaper reporter and editor, and an incurable lover
of puns, lives in St. Louis.

Copyright ゥ 2002 LewRockwell.com

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 28, 2002 at 11:18:59 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

FYI, I think these drugs (modafinil/adafinil [sp]) are not legal in the
U.S, or at least the former was according to antiaging-systems.com.  This
is very strange, since the U.S. is usually the most liberal about these
sorta “nootropics”, all of which are mainly snake oil IMHO.

Personally, as someone with borderline ADD, I find that the occasional
Phentermine capsule substitutes for any sort of amphetamine VERY nicely.
(I can’t get Dexies unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on the way
you look at it.)  You build up a tolerance VERY quickly to these though;
you almost have to double your dose every day to get the same effect, but
watch out for that dizziness.  My girlfriend, who is non-ADD prone, finds
they make her jittery, at least on the first couple of days.

I can’t find much bad to say about these, other than that they are
potentially habit forming and they’re supposedly (read contradictory
things) an MAOI, which I would confirm.  I have an acute caffeine
toxicity, and if I take one within 48 hours of having a Carmel Macchiato
at Starbucks the effects are very intense & not terribly pleasurable –
streaming pits, dizziness, etc.  Of course, after three or so days on an
L.A. celebrity diet (baby carrots, bottled water, Phentermine and valerian
root) it’s more than likely I’m just malnourished.  (Hey, my weight always
shows up on my face first, and I gotta look good for my 10 year reunion
here in a couple of weeks) 😉

If anyone has any refs for this, please pass ’em along.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Mon, 27 May 2002, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt wrote:

Tried to get Provigil but you need a credit card that I don’t have so that
was the end of that
Thanx for the Info anyway, perhaps one of my buddies over here can help, I’m
sure getting to the point where I need my brain enhanced
This Social Policy stuff can get tres complicated

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 19:14
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things

What’s Nootropic Brett?

Short version, brain enhancing drugs, Also called
smart-drugs. Generally they increase one or more of
the following; memory, attention, cognitive ability,
clearity and may enhance mood and have anti-aging
properties. They are usually pretty tame stuff, some
such as deprenyl are tame in and of themselves but are
MAOI-B (I think, they are OK with cheese/wine but
conflict with some drugs) and will in fact give you a
positive for SPEED as the prime metabolite is
methamphetamine (might be some other kind of speed but
don’t think so) – not that I ever felt any “speed”
from it. Many of them mix very well and many people
wind up mixing them without knowledge and get some
strange reactions, usually pretty harmless. They
usually (and some may require it) mix well with
choline products (eg lecithin), better read-up before
trying any.

These are usually over the counter stuff,
non-controlled drugs, drugs available legally from
overseas. Some products are natural, many are not.

see

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml

brett

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 14:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among
other things

You could say that. Phenylalanine for instance helps
calm the nerves, ginsing helps with fatigue and when
I
am in physical pain, a pain reliever sure changes
how
I feel/state of mind. Not all of it for the good if
it
is a narcotic pain reliever or other drug with a
negative side effect, they are however intert
addiction-wise. What matters is the thought/reason
behind why I do things and not so much the thing
itself. There is (for instance) no druggie type
“seeking” behind taking a pain med, nootropic or
Yoga.
Once upon a time I chased anything, drugs, women
(that
was fun), job, hobbie… the chase is over.

or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Anything we do alters the state of mind. I abuse
Yoga
regularly, it alters my state of mind, so does
coffee,
nicotine, the ever popular SEX, an apple, a sunny or
dreary day affects how how I feel but I am not
consumed by them. The difference is if I do things
addictively (and the thought behind it) or not and
the
effect it has on me that (to me) is important.

I remember being at an AA meeting and the subject of
non-alcoholic beer came up. The hard core AA’ers go
with the theme non-alcoholic beer if for
non-alcoholics. If one is going into a bar to sit
with
“friends” and think they can get away with only
drinking non-alcoholic beer they are fooling
themselves and exercising/toying with their
addiction.
If it “matters” to have it, if it is important, if
it
is saying “NO” to drinking alcohol (and feeling of
lacking), it ain’t a good thing. I drink it because
I
like it, couldn’t care less one way or the other if
I
had it, wouldn’t want to sit in a bar drinking
near-beer (and trying not to want a real one…).
Last
one was a few months ago, before that, lets see, 2,
no
3 years ago. It matters if it matters, the trick is
to
see that and not do things that do.

Brett

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying.
Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 28, 2002 at 9:58:20 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

a pink, nasty tasting anti-indigestion ‘medicine’.
and I misspelled it. It’s Pepto Bismol.
Andria, I have yet read your mag, which is why I’ve not written with a
comment. Been a bit busy lately.
I will, no worries.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hello

What;s peptol bismol?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 28 May 2002 01:13
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Hey,
Anyone else see this site yet?
http://www.drugworkshop.net/
Pretty pictures. Interesting aim and message.

wow. that page color reminds me of my last peptol bismol binge. ugh.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] (explaination for halo in Miami last week?) Fw: [C IA-DRUGS] Sundog
Date: May 28, 2002 at 9:45:34 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I know exactly what u mean Prestron, and I fear u are probably damned right

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 28 May 2002 02:42
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] (explaination for halo in Miami last week?) Fw:
[CIA-DRUGS] Sundog

Hi all,
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ibogaine, but what with the photos
and wonder out of Miami last week, (Sun Halo/UFO),
I know, natural reaction to these chem-trail stories is usually to say,
at least for me, “Oh yeah, sure, right” but lately I’m finding myself
wondering which is up, which is down, and just what the US government really
is up to. Not that this is exactly new wonder, but I am not as skeptical
suddenly of some of the seemingly kookier ideas.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Steve McAlexander” <invictus@sbcglobal.net>
To: <invictus@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] Sundog

Now I know what it’s called…

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/db-search.cgi?template=img-detai
l
<http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/db-search.cgi?template=img-deta
il&dbname=img&key2=1569&action=searchdbdisplay>
&dbname=img&key2=1569&action=searchdbdisplay

This pic was taken yesterday in Seattle.  It shows exactly what I’m
seeing here in Kenosha today.  The only difference is that I’m not
seeing puffy little cloud formations here, it’s more diffused, like
gauze all over the sky.  The sunlight is also very weak-looking and
kinda milky.  The rainbow halo is a perfect circle, the one over my head
lasted over 4 hours, cloud cover has increased in the last half hour to
finally put the halo away…  First time I’ve ever seen this phenomena,
surprised at how long it lasted too.  Posted temp is 71, yet I’m
freezing.  It just doesn’t feel like 71 to me.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 28, 2002 at 9:44:44 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What;s peptol bismol?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 28 May 2002 01:13
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Hey,
Anyone else see this site yet?
http://www.drugworkshop.net/
Pretty pictures. Interesting aim and message.

wow. that page color reminds me of my last peptol bismol binge. ugh.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Christina Kester” <poppy_1974@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 28, 2002 at 8:43:21 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i’ve had hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i have anything to worry about?
Poppy

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)

On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.

I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal. Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted. When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that says volumes.

On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.

I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating reading. Thanks to all of you!

Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Jon
|
| Which country are you in?

John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.

| You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts) but
| as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state of
| ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
| wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on HCV)
| cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or so

Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
pretty simple:

Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
then you are more or less — probably — okay.

This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.

Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
Q-T prolongation and torsades.

And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
Presto, you gots a dead body.

In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.

None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
already.

– – – – – – – – –

To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
wacked the fuck out.)

– – – – – – – – –

Now… Here’s the great big grey area…

What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.

Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
living.

To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).

All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
done to myself.

However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.

What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
want or don’t want.

And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
something similar.

This is called desperation.

To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.

Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
intentions were.

– – – – – – – – –

Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
rapidly.”

Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.

Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.

Patrick

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (explaination for halo in Miami last week?) Fw: [CIA-DRUGS] Sundog
Date: May 27, 2002 at 11:16:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I remember that, I think vector posted the url? It was
some newspaper in florida, I don’t remember which.
I’ll try to find it in my mail, I have a ibogaine
mailbox folder.

The world is a weird place right now. One of the
reasons I feel at home here 🙂

-carrie

— Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Hi all,
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ibogaine,
but what with the photos
and wonder out of Miami last week, (Sun Halo/UFO),
I know, natural reaction to these chem-trail
stories is usually to say,
at least for me, “Oh yeah, sure, right” but lately
I’m finding myself
wondering which is up, which is down, and just
what the US government really
is up to. Not that this is exactly new wonder, but
I am not as skeptical
suddenly of some of the seemingly kookier ideas.

Pretty Freaky.

begin twilight zone soundtrack…

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 27, 2002 at 10:57:58 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peptol Bismol binge? Egad, that sounds like loads of fun. Whatever possessed
you? Pepto Bismal does not get one high, to the best of my knowledge. ;-)))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Gamma” <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Hey,
Anyone else see this site yet?
http://www.drugworkshop.net/
Pretty pictures. Interesting aim and message.

wow. that page color reminds me of my last peptol bismol binge. ugh.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (explaination for halo in Miami last week?) Fw: [CIA-DRUGS] Sundog
Date: May 27, 2002 at 10:53:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Hi all,
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ibogaine, but what with the photos
and wonder out of Miami last week, (Sun Halo/UFO),
I know, natural reaction to these chem-trail stories is usually to say,
at least for me, “Oh yeah, sure, right” but lately I’m finding myself
wondering which is up, which is down, and just what the US government really
is up to. Not that this is exactly new wonder, but I am not as skeptical
suddenly of some of the seemingly kookier ideas.

Pretty Freaky.

begin twilight zone soundtrack…

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] help with sun halo url
Date: May 27, 2002 at 10:27:09 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey all,
Again, nothing to do with Ibogaine, but someone forwarded a URL leading to
that photo from Miami of the sun halo. Could that person please resend it,
as I cannot after fruitless, irritating searching figure out where I put it,
and now that I need it, or course it’s nowhere to be found.
Thanks in advance.
Peace,
Preston

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (explaination for halo in Miami last week?) Fw: [CIA-DRUGS] Sundog
Date: May 27, 2002 at 9:41:47 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ibogaine, but what with the photos
and wonder out of Miami last week, (Sun Halo/UFO),
I know, natural reaction to these chem-trail stories is usually to say,
at least for me, “Oh yeah, sure, right” but lately I’m finding myself
wondering which is up, which is down, and just what the US government really
is up to. Not that this is exactly new wonder, but I am not as skeptical
suddenly of some of the seemingly kookier ideas.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Steve McAlexander” <invictus@sbcglobal.net>
To: <invictus@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] Sundog

Now I know what it’s called…

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/db-search.cgi?template=img-detai
l
<http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/db-search.cgi?template=img-deta
il&dbname=img&key2=1569&action=searchdbdisplay>
&dbname=img&key2=1569&action=searchdbdisplay

This pic was taken yesterday in Seattle.  It shows exactly what I’m
seeing here in Kenosha today.  The only difference is that I’m not
seeing puffy little cloud formations here, it’s more diffused, like
gauze all over the sky.  The sunlight is also very weak-looking and
kinda milky.  The rainbow halo is a perfect circle, the one over my head
lasted over 4 hours, cloud cover has increased in the last half hour to
finally put the halo away…  First time I’ve ever seen this phenomena,
surprised at how long it lasted too.  Posted temp is 71, yet I’m
freezing.  It just doesn’t feel like 71 to me.

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 27, 2002 at 8:14:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: <lauren_saunders@talk21.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 4:17 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] hello

i’m going on, only wanted to say hi and i’m happy i found here.

ls

And we are happy to have you here as well.

Welcome.

-Gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 27, 2002 at 8:12:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Hey,
Anyone else see this site yet?
http://www.drugworkshop.net/
Pretty pictures. Interesting aim and message.

wow. that page color reminds me of my last peptol bismol binge. ugh.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 27, 2002 at 12:36:31 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We published their 12 steps of Harm Reduction in the Users Voice, we liked
it/them so much! They are on this site

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 May 2002 14:21
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello

Hey,
Anyone else see this site yet?
http://www.drugworkshop.net/
Pretty pictures. Interesting aim and message.
And greetings btw.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: <lauren_saunders@talk21.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 4:17 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] hello

hello!

i was very surprised to find here exists! beautiful beautiful place!

i am new to knowing what ibogaine is but i love the feel of here.

first place i ever see which is not depressing me so much to just even
look at!

very strange blend of psychedelic light and dark and heroin and crack and
everything.

i’m going on, only wanted to say hi and i’m happy i found here.

ls

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at
http://www.talk21.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 27, 2002 at 12:31:42 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Very scary. They can not only read our e-mail but also read our minds
online!
Nah, they are just monitoring my eye-ball movement. Presumably that wouldn’t
be too difficult, not that I would have a clue how to do it!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 26 May 2002 14:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello

In a message dated 5/26/02 8:22:28 AM, carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp2.html

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for the tip on an interesting page.

Howard

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 27, 2002 at 12:16:08 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Welcome Lauren
Which bit of the planet do u live on?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: lauren_saunders@talk21.com [mailto:lauren_saunders@talk21.com]
Sent: 26 May 2002 09:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] hello

hello!

i was very surprised to find here exists! beautiful beautiful place!

i am new to knowing what ibogaine is but i love the feel of here.

first place i ever see which is not depressing me so much to just even look
at!

very strange blend of psychedelic light and dark and heroin and crack and
everything.

i’m going on, only wanted to say hi and i’m happy i found here.

ls

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at
http://www.talk21.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 27, 2002 at 12:04:33 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanx Bill, that Q-10 Coenzyme sounds like just the ticket, not too
psychoactive but a bit of a lift during this stressful time
Cheers a lot!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Bill Ross [mailto:ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU]
Sent: 24 May 2002 22:52
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things

Take … and whatever the name of that brain-supplement is.
(Ginko Biloba maybe)

Reminds me of another posting, don’t remember where:

I’ve been doing ginkgo for about 6 months now, and in my totally-
anecdotal, non-double-blind-studied, possibly-placebo-effect-induced
opinion, it seems to help memory.   It also seems to help memory.

not alter my state of mind, although I wish they would!

Especially if you’re getting on in years (40+) you might
want to try He Shou Wu or Coenzyme Q-10 – subtle mind-alteration
through enhancement of well-being.

I was sold something for my asthma, which gives me a slight feeling
of
lightness and a h more energy which is better than a slap in the
face
with a wet flannel!

That the sort of thing you needed to know?

I definitely feel younger for it 🙂

Bill Ross

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 27, 2002 at 11:53:05 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Tried to get Provigil but you need a credit card that I don’t have so that
was the end of that
Thanx for the Info anyway, perhaps one of my buddies over here can help, I’m
sure getting to the point where I need my brain enhanced
This Social Policy stuff can get tres complicated

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 19:14
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things

What’s Nootropic Brett?

Short version, brain enhancing drugs, Also called
smart-drugs. Generally they increase one or more of
the following; memory, attention, cognitive ability,
clearity and may enhance mood and have anti-aging
properties. They are usually pretty tame stuff, some
such as deprenyl are tame in and of themselves but are
MAOI-B (I think, they are OK with cheese/wine but
conflict with some drugs) and will in fact give you a
positive for SPEED as the prime metabolite is
methamphetamine (might be some other kind of speed but
don’t think so) – not that I ever felt any “speed”
from it. Many of them mix very well and many people
wind up mixing them without knowledge and get some
strange reactions, usually pretty harmless. They
usually (and some may require it) mix well with
choline products (eg lecithin), better read-up before
trying any.

These are usually over the counter stuff,
non-controlled drugs, drugs available legally from
overseas. Some products are natural, many are not.

see

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml

brett

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 14:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among
other things

You could say that. Phenylalanine for instance helps
calm the nerves, ginsing helps with fatigue and when
I
am in physical pain, a pain reliever sure changes
how
I feel/state of mind. Not all of it for the good if
it
is a narcotic pain reliever or other drug with a
negative side effect, they are however intert
addiction-wise. What matters is the thought/reason
behind why I do things and not so much the thing
itself. There is (for instance) no druggie type
“seeking” behind taking a pain med, nootropic or
Yoga.
Once upon a time I chased anything, drugs, women
(that
was fun), job, hobbie… the chase is over.

or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Anything we do alters the state of mind. I abuse
Yoga
regularly, it alters my state of mind, so does
coffee,
nicotine, the ever popular SEX, an apple, a sunny or
dreary day affects how how I feel but I am not
consumed by them. The difference is if I do things
addictively (and the thought behind it) or not and
the
effect it has on me that (to me) is important.

I remember being at an AA meeting and the subject of
non-alcoholic beer came up. The hard core AA’ers go
with the theme non-alcoholic beer if for
non-alcoholics. If one is going into a bar to sit
with
“friends” and think they can get away with only
drinking non-alcoholic beer they are fooling
themselves and exercising/toying with their
addiction.
If it “matters” to have it, if it is important, if
it
is saying “NO” to drinking alcohol (and feeling of
lacking), it ain’t a good thing. I drink it because
I
like it, couldn’t care less one way or the other if
I
had it, wouldn’t want to sit in a bar drinking
near-beer (and trying not to want a real one…).
Last
one was a few months ago, before that, lets see, 2,
no
3 years ago. It matters if it matters, the trick is
to
see that and not do things that do.

Brett

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying.
Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

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From: fuak <fuak@nirvanet.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 27, 2002 at 12:08:02 AM EDT
To: ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

instead of removing just your card they replace them all
===== Original Message From HSLotsof@aol.com =====
In a message dated 5/26/02 8:22:28 AM, carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp2.html

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for the tip on an interesting page.

Howard

From: “D B” <facobly@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 26, 2002 at 9:58:26 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi, Carrie, very simple:
None of the first cards is present on the second page when you click on the eye, so you believe your card have been removed but in fact all the cards have been removes and changed by another one! 😉
DB

Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l’adresse http://explorer.msn.com.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 26, 2002 at 9:21:04 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey,
Anyone else see this site yet?
http://www.drugworkshop.net/
Pretty pictures. Interesting aim and message.
And greetings btw.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: <lauren_saunders@talk21.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 4:17 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] hello

hello!

i was very surprised to find here exists! beautiful beautiful place!

i am new to knowing what ibogaine is but i love the feel of here.

first place i ever see which is not depressing me so much to just even
look at!

very strange blend of psychedelic light and dark and heroin and crack and
everything.

i’m going on, only wanted to say hi and i’m happy i found here.

ls

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at
http://www.talk21.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 26, 2002 at 9:03:46 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 5/26/02 8:22:28 AM, carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp2.html

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for the tip on an interesting page.

Howard

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 26, 2002 at 8:22:10 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lauren!

I’m starting to feel like a welcoming committee, so
many new people who say hi instead of drop hate mail
and leave. Must be the phase of the moon or something
😉

I know it’s stupid. I know it’s not really doing what
it says it’s doing. I know this is off topic here (I
made a joke 🙂 But I have to ask this. How does this
thing work? It’s freaky, try it. And then one of you
geniuses who knows something about everything tell me
what is it really doing.

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp2.html

-carrie

— lauren_saunders@talk21.com wrote:

hello!

i was very surprised to find here exists! beautiful
beautiful place!

i am new to knowing what ibogaine is but i love the
feel of here.

first place i ever see which is not depressing me so
much to just even look at!

very strange blend of psychedelic light and dark and
heroin and crack and everything.

i’m going on, only wanted to say hi and i’m happy i
found here.

ls

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: lauren_saunders@talk21.com
Subject: [ibogaine] hello
Date: May 26, 2002 at 3:17:33 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hello!

i was very surprised to find here exists! beautiful beautiful place!

i am new to knowing what ibogaine is but i love the feel of here.

first place i ever see which is not depressing me so much to just even look at!

very strange blend of psychedelic light and dark and heroin and crack and everything.

i’m going on, only wanted to say hi and i’m happy i found here.

ls

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] when?
Date: May 25, 2002 at 8:46:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

2nd day of answering you! Patrick? Wake up. On Sat, 25 May 2002, Carrie Rollins wrote > > Patrick you’re so very sick sick sick and funny 😉 > I’m lol so much I’m close to having a accident. > > http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=Sacred/Resurrection.htm > Awesome shit! Funny. Not sure it’s funny funny, or funny sick, because it’s all so true. Know yourself I guess. > What is the real deal, is Mindvox opening soon? Things > keep changing and being added but none of ya ever > announce anything. Please? I’m asking nicely 😉 > > Agrippa won’t load for me 🙁 > I don’t think it’s there yet. http://www.eff.org/Publications/William_Gibson/agr1ppa.parody I can’t answer when mail will work, because it does work and is all set up. the question is when will anybody at phantom.com wake up and realize they could at least make a few thousand selling email accounts that don’t suck @mindvox.com The site changes, the css file is gargantuan and if you read it it is making calls to all kinds of things which don’t exist in the site and are inside somewhere. You can also step up the directory listings like http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/ But only the UI is running from that, the rest goes to Application: MindVox Error: NSInvalidArgumentException exception Reason: Exception while executing method init: Exception while executing statement : eventTypes = [logEditingContext objectsForEntityNamed:@”IDLogEventType”] Exception while evaluating WebScript expression [logEditingContext objectsForEntityNamed:@”IDLogEventType”]: ORA-12541: TNS:no listener ORA is Oracle, it’s trying to talk to that but it’s not up or has no permissions from the general account. .:vector:. @mindvox.com (this century please)
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] when?
Date: May 25, 2002 at 7:55:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick you’re so very sick sick sick and funny 😉
I’m lol so much I’m close to having a accident.

http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=Sacred/Resurrection.htm

What is the real deal, is Mindvox opening soon? Things
keep changing and being added but none of ya ever
announce anything. Please? I’m asking nicely 😉

Agrippa won’t load for me 🙁

-carrie

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW: Psychoactivity conference on ayahuasca, Amsterdam, November 22 – 24, 2002
Date: May 25, 2002 at 7:49:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Hattie, what is ayahuasca like for addiction? You
said you stopped doing cocaine after using it, what
did it do for you? I’m guessing it doesn’t have any
detox properties like ibogaine does and wouldn’t do
much for heroin addiction?

-carrie

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:

———-
From: “Psychoactivity” <info@psychoactivity.org>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:48:50 +0200
To: <info@psychoactivity.org>
Subject: Psychoactivity conference on ayahuasca,
Amsterdam, November 22 –
24, 2002

You might all want to check this out. I got over my
cocaine addiction using
this plant medicine. Did me the world of good, There
has been some very
interesting work with ayahuasca and addiction in
Holland that some of you
may know about.

.. www.psychoactivity.org
<http://www.psychoactivity.org>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “tgoodson7” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 25, 2002 at 4:17:21 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Carla:  Yes, my Grandson did get clean but he didn’t stay clean.  He is
Manic-Depressive as well Obsessive-Compulsivewhich is a difficult
combination to contend with.  He is also very impulsive;  when an idea pops
into he is so
impulsive that he acts almost instantainiously.  He almost never analizes a
potential situation before acting!!  As you probably
know that is a sure path to trouble.  Consequences are always things that
his Mother has to explain to him after the fact and that’s a deadly habit.

I thought several times that he had crossed the line one too many times and
he finally did pull the final transgression.  He is almost a little kid in
his reactions to his apprehension.

He took the Ibogaine over a period of  about 4 hours and did very well.  He
had his last dose of Methadone about 24 hours
before he ingested the Ibogaine. He first took a test dose very light, (
about 100 mg.) to test for any alergic reaction.   He took about 1000 mg. at
about 8:00 AM, about half an hour after his test dose.  He tolerated this
first dose very well.  Then
at about 12 noon he took his 2nd dose of about 1000 mg.  He seemed to
tolerate this fairly well and held it for more then 4 hours.

He held it for  2 hours and  another 2 hours before he began to throw up.
However, since he passed the first
2 hours it was considered sufficient.  He had retained the complete doses of
Ibogaine.  But we were able to get two
reefers (MArijuana) and they really settled him down and he was O.K. from
then on.  He had the typical aftermath for several days.  He went for 6 days
without any sign of withdrawel symptems.  However, every day he kept talking
about getting to
the Methadone Clinic for his morning dose.   This became an obsession with
him almost to point of desperation!!

So oan the 7th day he sneaked off and went to the clinic and got re-instated
and got his dose.  He had been told that if he
missed 3 days he would be automatically cut-off from his Methadone.  This
had become an obsession with him while
enduring the treatment period.  Well, he got his Methadone and was
re-instated.  But he never did have any withdrawel
sickness.  After a couple of months he screwed up again and was put back in
jail.  This time he was forced to go cold-
turkey and abstain totally from anything.  He was very shocked to have no
withdrawel symptems while in jail.  He had
always had withdrawel sickness every time he was back in jail.  He has been
jailed about 6 or 7 times in the last 10
years so he has had to go cold-turkey every time.  This was the first time
he had no withdrawel sickness..

Anyway, he got into drugs at the age of 12 and he is 24 now.  He started on
Marijuana for a couple of years.  He heard all the government propanga about
the horrors of Marujuana and when he found out that the propaganda was all
lies he tried
some hard stuff, (Morphine) and of course, he got hooked right away and has
been on something ever since!!!

If the government would be honest about drugs there would a lot fewer people
to experiment with them.  One thing you
cant do and that is try to fool kids!!  My Grandson has a genius I.Q. and
was making straight A’s in the 10th grade when
he switched over and started using hard drugs.  He simply dropped out of
school about half through the 10th grade.  Then
he started stealing anything he could get his hands on to get his drugs.  It
has been a wide-awake, screaming night-mare
ever since!!!!

Hope this gives you and Andrea a good explanation.    Tommy Goodson

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

Hi Tommy, I didn’t really understand what happened.
Did your grandson get clean with ibogaine and stay
clean or are you talking about his legal problems
because of his drug use and the insane war on drugs?

Carla B

— tgoodson7 <tgoodson7@cox.net> wrote:
Nick;  I appreciate the information on Methadone.  I
have never read nor
heard the complete story you related to us.  And
I certainly appreciate the soft touch in your
corrections.  Some of the
people on this list are a little more abrasive in
their
rebutals or disagreements;  not that I am all that
sensitive.. You did a
marvelous job of informing me about something that I
have more experience with than education.  I know
that dont make much sense
but it is with my Grandson.

He has been into drugs since age 12 and he is 24
years old.  Methadone is
insidious when it comes to breaking away.  I was
able to get Ibogaine treatment for him and he really
believes in Ibogaine.
It works.  In fact, one day I am going to take the
short course of therapy myself.  My daughter and I
have been living with
this nightmare for 12 years.  He has a genius I.Q.

For my Grandson, it came kinda late.  He is going to
do some hard time time
for transgressions committed along the way in
his desperate attempts to get drugs.  It is indeed a
pitifull thing to live
with this kind of plague.

I am sure you can guess my feelings considering this
god-awfull, grotesque,
monstrosity they call the “DRUG WAR”!!!!
Americans have been slow to pick up on political
indignities but never so
slow
as they are to get wise to this loathsome,
national BETRAYAL!!!!  What other country in this
whole wide world would let
a national treacherous institutionalized
PARADOX continue for nearly one hundred years;  it
started in 1914 with
passage of the Harrison Act.  It could sarcastically
be called the “One Hundred Years War”  a total
disasterous failure at a cost
of at least $1 Trillion Dollars and no end
visiable??

I guess pontificating is my  calling.

Tommy Goodson

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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 25, 2002 at 11:47:04 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

One more thing.

Drug addiction, especially alcoholism increases age
related memory loss/disorders. Cognitive enhancement
medications used in the treatment of memory
loss/impaired cognitive abilities can be used to treat
addicts with the same/similar problems. Hydergine
(mixes quite well with lucidril – add a choline
containing product such as lecithin) will usually work
quite well in improving memory loss/cognitive
impairment due to drug abuse. Do a  few searches on
the net, eg; “hydergine alcoholism”, “Cognitive
enhancement drug abuse”, just “hydergine” or
“lucidril”, “senile dementia”, Alzheimer’s” (with
other search strings such as “cognitive enhancement”
or “lucidril”, “Hydergine” (careful with it – it is an
MAOI-B and will give a positive tox screen for
methamphetamine), “Piracetam” (there is a whole class
of similar drugs – piracetam is an old stand-buy and
relatively cheap) and find some sites that have
descriptions of these medications. Add a choline
product such as lecithin – B complex will also help
brain function and metabolism of proteins to
neurotransmitters. Other cognitive enhancement drugs
will also work – everyone is different, Once you find
sites with the meds I listed you will have found all
the others. Lucidril in particular will dissolve the
protein that makes bodies “stiff” with age, makes
“liver spots” (gals, it takes about 6 months), forms
in the brain with age (lipofuscin) and used to treat
Alzheimer’s patients. Other; Bromocriptine is also
used to normalize brain function in coke addicts,
dilantin (careful with it, not more than 1 pill) is
good for “dancing legs” in prolonged withdrawal
symptoms (they can last a year or more). Piracetam,
dilantin, bromocriptine… are symptomatic drugs where
lucidril actually treats the problem, I don’t remember
about hydergine but it can take anywhere from 1 day to
6 months. Generally, Piracetam and similar drugs (eg
Oxiracetam)  work rather instantly, some other
palative drugs take a bit longer and drugs that
actually repair take quite a while. Hydergine is an
ergot derivative (careful with circulation problems –
eg Raynards) and hard on the stomach, get the FAS
(coated) version and start slow with it. The
“American” standard of dosage with Hydergine (what is
approved) is rather worthless, 1-3mg, in Europe they
use 4.5-9 quite safely.

In early recovery cognitive enhancement medications
and other drugs can make it a bit easier, help with
some of the fuzziness and confusion, as I said
bromocriptine will help with coke/crack addicts to
unscramble their brains. Care must be taken with any
medication in treating addiction, for instance
script/pill heads can have problems with using them
(more isn’t always better). Careful mixing them, eg;
vinpocetine (I believe ibogaine is made from a
byproduct), ginko and other meds should only be mixed
with other cognitive enhancement drugs if you know
what you are doing and then slowly, I have heard some
strange stories – you are tinkering with how the brain
works, the object of the game is to make it work in a
more normal fashion, not a normal addict fashion, not
MORE BETTER. Some do (piracetam) cause some kind of a
buzz, the world certainly looks brighter. Note on
Piracetam, GENERALLY (with all of these meds try a
very low dose first) a high first dose or 2 is
required then it can be cut down, after some time it
doesn’t work as well (or so it seems) and the dose can
be increased a bit. Most of these are very safe even
at high dosages, at least as stand-alone meds but read
the product literature very carefully, please. All
medications have side effects for some people,
contraindications, adverse reactions, warnings, drugs
they cannot be mixed with…

If anyone is really interested and needs help, let me
know. Legally, most of these medications can be
purchased from overseas without a prescription (well
all of the above can), the rules are; no controlled
substances (actually I think you are allowed to carry
in 50, don’t know about mail-order) only a 90 day
supply, for yourself only. qhi.co.uk is reliable, slow
(it can take a month or more to get) and have poor
communication, but you will get your order and they
have very good prices and selection as well as
extensive info on products (see also
giampapainstitute.com and Life Extensions institute).
Be warned, even if it is legal, some Customs agents
will get this wild hair up their butts about importing
DRUGS, they may try to hold/confiscate them – it is
ILLEGAL for them to do so and they must release them
to you UNLESS they can substantiate that they are
illegal – in practice, you are dealing with a
government agency which means they are not
responsible, which means they are allowed to be
irresponsible, which means your package can go into
black hole and never be seen again. IF you travel out
of the country and wish to return with these meds
BRING THE FDA AND CUSTOMS rulings with you printed in
large, easy to read print and be ready to read it to
them… The package insert or product description may
also be a good idea.

Warning, I may have made an error or 2, been a while
since I tinkered much with these products.

FDA ruling on importation of drugs

http://www.fda.gov/ora/import/pipinfo.htm

http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/rpm_new2/ch9pers.html

Brett

— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Take … and whatever the name of that
brain-supplement is.
(Ginko Biloba maybe)

Reminds me of another posting, don’t remember where:

I’ve been doing ginkgo for about 6 months now, and
in my totally-
anecdotal, non-double-blind-studied,
possibly-placebo-effect-induced
opinion, it seems to help memory.   It also seems
to help memory.

not alter my state of mind, although I wish they
would!

Especially if you’re getting on in years (40+) you
might
want to try He Shou Wu or Coenzyme Q-10 – subtle
mind-alteration
through enhancement of well-being.

I was sold something for my asthma, which gives me
a slight feeling of
lightness and a h more energy which is better than
a slap in the face
with a wet flannel!

That the sort of thing you needed to know?

I definitely feel younger for it 🙂

Bill Ross

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] How do i download this?
Date: May 25, 2002 at 1:39:09 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Carrie Rollins wrote > > > Patrick, I was searching through your life 😉 What is > this and how do I read it? It’s in your media kit but > it isn’t there like some other stuff and I can’t click > this. They want to fax me this? How do I get them to > email? > > http://www.pir.org/sources/aP.html > http://www.pir.org/xd/xkri/Patrick_Kroupa.html > > How do I download please? > > -carrie It looks like they are selling pages out of books. What’s in those URLs is a Kevin Mitnick book where it looks like half the Legion of Doom is in it. Send then $1.05 and get a fax. They don’t look like they have email options. Patrick man come on, you’re ignoring the other list, you’re ignoring your email I understand you have a lot of it. I will pay for a @mindvox.com account. I want vector@mindvox.com. I will paypal you for a year of the account. Pick a price.You have POP going you are all using it, it takes 15 seconds to configure. You have hundreds of the castaways from phantom going with email. What’s the big deal? I want @mindvox.com already! Come on come on, what are you guys doing? If Mindvox isn’t open yet ok we can use the lists for right now but you have mail going, you have no reason not to start opening mailboxes to people who want them and are willing to pay for them. Are you or are you people not in business? .:vector:. (not vector6, fuck the 5 other vectors).
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] How do i download this?
Date: May 25, 2002 at 12:27:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, I was searching through your life 😉 What is
this and how do I read it? It’s in your media kit but
it isn’t there like some other stuff and I can’t click
this. They want to fax me this? How do I get them to
email?

http://www.pir.org/sources/aP.html
http://www.pir.org/xd/xkri/Patrick_Kroupa.html

How do I download please?

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Newcomer
Date: May 24, 2002 at 11:21:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi DB, I’m not sure how you define insane or not, some
people here are sure different but it’s a very neat
place 😉

Welcome

-carrie

— Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
<AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Welcome to the virtually-insane society DB!

(Just kidding) sorta…!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: D B [mailto:facobly@hotmail.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 16:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Newcomer

Hi everybody,

I’m a newcomer on this list, thank you all for the
information you share,
it’s very precious for people interrested by
ibogaine and that are new with
psychedelics to see that such a virtual community
exists and that people are
not insane. (One would think that people using
psychedelics have to be
somehow a little bit crazy). Excuse my poor english
but my first language is
french.

DB

_____

Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l’adresse
http://explorer.msn.com
<http://g.msn.com/1HM308101/37> .

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 24, 2002 at 5:52:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Take … and whatever the name of that brain-supplement is.
(Ginko Biloba maybe)

Reminds me of another posting, don’t remember where:

I’ve been doing ginkgo for about 6 months now, and in my totally-
anecdotal, non-double-blind-studied, possibly-placebo-effect-induced
opinion, it seems to help memory.   It also seems to help memory.

not alter my state of mind, although I wish they would!

Especially if you’re getting on in years (40+) you might
want to try He Shou Wu or Coenzyme Q-10 – subtle mind-alteration
through enhancement of well-being.

I was sold something for my asthma, which gives me a slight feeling of
lightness and a h more energy which is better than a slap in the face
with a wet flannel!

That the sort of thing you needed to know?

I definitely feel younger for it 🙂

Bill Ross

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 24, 2002 at 2:14:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What’s Nootropic Brett?

Short version, brain enhancing drugs, Also called
smart-drugs. Generally they increase one or more of
the following; memory, attention, cognitive ability,
clearity and may enhance mood and have anti-aging
properties. They are usually pretty tame stuff, some
such as deprenyl are tame in and of themselves but are
MAOI-B (I think, they are OK with cheese/wine but
conflict with some drugs) and will in fact give you a
positive for SPEED as the prime metabolite is
methamphetamine (might be some other kind of speed but
don’t think so) – not that I ever felt any “speed”
from it. Many of them mix very well and many people
wind up mixing them without knowledge and get some
strange reactions, usually pretty harmless. They
usually (and some may require it) mix well with
choline products (eg lecithin), better read-up before
trying any.

These are usually over the counter stuff,
non-controlled drugs, drugs available legally from
overseas. Some products are natural, many are not.

see

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml

brett

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 14:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among
other things

You could say that. Phenylalanine for instance helps
calm the nerves, ginsing helps with fatigue and when
I
am in physical pain, a pain reliever sure changes
how
I feel/state of mind. Not all of it for the good if
it
is a narcotic pain reliever or other drug with a
negative side effect, they are however intert
addiction-wise. What matters is the thought/reason
behind why I do things and not so much the thing
itself. There is (for instance) no druggie type
“seeking” behind taking a pain med, nootropic or
Yoga.
Once upon a time I chased anything, drugs, women
(that
was fun), job, hobbie… the chase is over.

or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Anything we do alters the state of mind. I abuse
Yoga
regularly, it alters my state of mind, so does
coffee,
nicotine, the ever popular SEX, an apple, a sunny or
dreary day affects how how I feel but I am not
consumed by them. The difference is if I do things
addictively (and the thought behind it) or not and
the
effect it has on me that (to me) is important.

I remember being at an AA meeting and the subject of
non-alcoholic beer came up. The hard core AA’ers go
with the theme non-alcoholic beer if for
non-alcoholics. If one is going into a bar to sit
with
“friends” and think they can get away with only
drinking non-alcoholic beer they are fooling
themselves and exercising/toying with their
addiction.
If it “matters” to have it, if it is important, if
it
is saying “NO” to drinking alcohol (and feeling of
lacking), it ain’t a good thing. I drink it because
I
like it, couldn’t care less one way or the other if
I
had it, wouldn’t want to sit in a bar drinking
near-beer (and trying not to want a real one…).
Last
one was a few months ago, before that, lets see, 2,
no
3 years ago. It matters if it matters, the trick is
to
see that and not do things that do.

Brett

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying.
Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 24, 2002 at 11:18:53 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hear, hear! Preston Thomas Peet for President!
Or barring that, at least someone, anyone, give me a contact for selling my
book so I can be a best selling author! ;-)))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Hi Preston Thomas Peet – blimey that does sound like the sort-of name that
should be given to a pres or something!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 04:46
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Thomas
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Yes you!

You said you got to pick your middle name too, then
never said what you picked.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Newcomer
Date: May 24, 2002 at 11:21:33 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Welcome to the virtually-insane society DB!

(Just kidding) sorta…!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: D B [mailto:facobly@hotmail.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 16:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Newcomer

Hi everybody,
I’m a newcomer on this list, thank you all for the information you share, it’s very precious for people interrested by ibogaine and that are new with psychedelics to see that such a virtual community exists and that people are not insane. (One would think that people using psychedelics have to be somehow a little bit crazy). Excuse my poor english but my first language is french.
DB

Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l’adresse http://explorer.msn.com.

From: “D B” <facobly@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Newcomer
Date: May 24, 2002 at 11:04:09 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi everybody,
I’m a newcomer on this list, thank you all for the information you share, it’s very precious for people interrested by ibogaine and that are new with psychedelics to see that such a virtual community exists and that people are not insane. (One would think that people using psychedelics have to be somehow a little bit crazy). Excuse my poor english but my first language is french.
DB

Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l’adresse http://explorer.msn.com.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 24, 2002 at 10:38:44 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What’s Nootropic Brett?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 14:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things

You could say that. Phenylalanine for instance helps
calm the nerves, ginsing helps with fatigue and when I
am in physical pain, a pain reliever sure changes how
I feel/state of mind. Not all of it for the good if it
is a narcotic pain reliever or other drug with a
negative side effect, they are however intert
addiction-wise. What matters is the thought/reason
behind why I do things and not so much the thing
itself. There is (for instance) no druggie type
“seeking” behind taking a pain med, nootropic or Yoga.
Once upon a time I chased anything, drugs, women (that
was fun), job, hobbie… the chase is over.

or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Anything we do alters the state of mind. I abuse Yoga
regularly, it alters my state of mind, so does coffee,
nicotine, the ever popular SEX, an apple, a sunny or
dreary day affects how how I feel but I am not
consumed by them. The difference is if I do things
addictively (and the thought behind it) or not and the
effect it has on me that (to me) is important.

I remember being at an AA meeting and the subject of
non-alcoholic beer came up. The hard core AA’ers go
with the theme non-alcoholic beer if for
non-alcoholics. If one is going into a bar to sit with
“friends” and think they can get away with only
drinking non-alcoholic beer they are fooling
themselves and exercising/toying with their addiction.
If it “matters” to have it, if it is important, if it
is saying “NO” to drinking alcohol (and feeling of
lacking), it ain’t a good thing. I drink it because I
like it, couldn’t care less one way or the other if I
had it, wouldn’t want to sit in a bar drinking
near-beer (and trying not to want a real one…). Last
one was a few months ago, before that, lets see, 2, no
3 years ago. It matters if it matters, the trick is to
see that and not do things that do.

Brett

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying. Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 24, 2002 at 10:35:13 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana

Is Thoma Didymos your middle name(s)?!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@cures-not-wars.org]
Sent: 24 May 2002 08:26
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Thomas

Ah– all is revealed!

Thomas Didymos

cnw

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Yes you!

You said you got to pick your middle name too, then
never said what you picked.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 24, 2002 at 10:34:36 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston Thomas Peet – blimey that does sound like the sort-of name that
should be given to a pres or something!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 04:46
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Thomas
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Yes you!

You said you got to pick your middle name too, then
never said what you picked.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 24, 2002 at 10:32:56 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Megadose, not exactly. Take multi-vits, codliveroil, Bilberry, and whatever
the name of that brain-supplement is. (Ginko Biloba maybe) They certainly do
not alter my state of mind, although I wish they would!

But I was sold something for my asthma, which gives me a slight feeling of
lightness and a h more energy which is better than a slap in the face with a
wet flannel!

That the sort of thing you needed to know?

What about u gal?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 May 2002 02:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things

Cool website Brett, thanks!

I’m curious sorry I always know I say that but I am. I
read the archives here finally, somewhere in the first
100 messages when this opened I think, I don’t know,
but it’s in the first 100 messages with Patrick, the
church of the inner light people some others, about
psychedelics and nootropics.

Then there was a second series of messages about
megadosing vitamins or something around 300 or so.

Do a lot of you now megadose vitamins or do smart
drugs? Do you find it helps in any way with staying
clean or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying. Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 24, 2002 at 9:31:54 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You could say that. Phenylalanine for instance helps
calm the nerves, ginsing helps with fatigue and when I
am in physical pain, a pain reliever sure changes how
I feel/state of mind. Not all of it for the good if it
is a narcotic pain reliever or other drug with a
negative side effect, they are however intert
addiction-wise. What matters is the thought/reason
behind why I do things and not so much the thing
itself. There is (for instance) no druggie type
“seeking” behind taking a pain med, nootropic or Yoga.
Once upon a time I chased anything, drugs, women (that
was fun), job, hobbie… the chase is over.

or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Anything we do alters the state of mind. I abuse Yoga
regularly, it alters my state of mind, so does coffee,
nicotine, the ever popular SEX, an apple, a sunny or
dreary day affects how how I feel but I am not
consumed by them. The difference is if I do things
addictively (and the thought behind it) or not and the
effect it has on me that (to me) is important.

I remember being at an AA meeting and the subject of
non-alcoholic beer came up. The hard core AA’ers go
with the theme non-alcoholic beer if for
non-alcoholics. If one is going into a bar to sit with
“friends” and think they can get away with only
drinking non-alcoholic beer they are fooling
themselves and exercising/toying with their addiction.
If it “matters” to have it, if it is important, if it
is saying “NO” to drinking alcohol (and feeling of
lacking), it ain’t a good thing. I drink it because I
like it, couldn’t care less one way or the other if I
had it, wouldn’t want to sit in a bar drinking
near-beer (and trying not to want a real one…). Last
one was a few months ago, before that, lets see, 2, no
3 years ago. It matters if it matters, the trick is to
see that and not do things that do.

Brett

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying. Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] 18-mc metabolite identified
Date: May 24, 2002 at 8:31:02 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Drug Metab Dispos 2002 Jun 1;30(6):663-669

Metabolism of 18-Methoxycoronaridine, an Ibogaine Analog, to
18-Hydroxycoronaridine by Genetically Variable CYP2C19.

Zhang W, Ramamoorthy Y, Tyndale RF, Glick SD, Maisonneuve IM, Kuehne ME,
Sellers EM.

Center for Addiction and Mental Health, University of Toronto, Toronto,
Canada.

18-Methoxycoronaridine, a newly developed ibogaine analog, has been reported
to decrease the self-administration of morphine, cocaine, ethanol, and
nicotine. It has also been reported to attenuate naltrexone-precipitated
signs of morphine withdrawal. In this study, three metabolites of
18-methoxycoronaridine (18-MC) were separated and identified by
high-performance liquid chromatography-electrospray ionization-mass
spectrometry-mass spectrometry (HPLC-ESI-MS-MS); the major metabolite was
18-hydroxycoronaridine (18-HC). The other two metabolites were elucidated as
hydroxylated metabolites on the basis of their MS-MS spectra. Catalytic
studies of 18-MC O-demethylase activity in human liver microsomes indicate
that one high affinity enzyme is involved in this reaction (K(m) from 2.81 to
7.9 &mgr;M; V(max) from 0.045 to 0.29 nmol/mg/min). In cDNA-expressing
microsomes, only CYP2C19 displayed significant 18-MC O-demethylase activity (
K(m) 1.34 &mgr;M; V(max) 0.21 nmol/mg/min). S-Mephenytoin, a selective
CYP2C19 inhibitor, inhibited 18-MC O-demethylation by 65% at a concentration
of 2 times its K(I), and antibodies against rat 2C (human CYP2C8, 2C9, 2C19)
inhibited 18-HC formation by 70%. Studies with other cytochrome P450
(P450)-selective chemical inhibitors and antibodies failed to demonstrate an
appreciable role for other P450s in this reaction. In addition, in microsomes
from five different human livers, 18-MC O-demethylation correlated with
S-mephenytoin 4’hydroxylase activity but not with other P450 probe reactions.
These data indicate that 18-HC formation is the predominant pathway of 18-MC
metabolism in vitro in human liver microsomes and that this metabolic pathway
is primarily catalyzed by the polymorphic CYP2C19. The apparent selectivity
of this pathway for CYP2C19 suggests 18-MC as a potentially useful probe of
CYP2C19 activity in vitro and in vivo.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 24, 2002 at 1:07:44 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thomas Didymos<

Eh? I always thought it was after Thomas the doubting apostle. Is this the
same guy?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Thomas

Ah– all is revealed!

Thomas Didymos

cnw

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Yes you!

You said you got to pick your middle name too, then
never said what you picked.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 24, 2002 at 3:26:15 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thomas

Ah– all is revealed!

Thomas Didymos

cnw

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Yes you!

You said you got to pick your middle name too, then
never said what you picked.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 23, 2002 at 11:46:15 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thomas
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

Yes you!

You said you got to pick your middle name too, then
never said what you picked.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 23, 2002 at 9:18:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Tommy, I didn’t really understand what happened.
Did your grandson get clean with ibogaine and stay
clean or are you talking about his legal problems
because of his drug use and the insane war on drugs?

Carla B

— tgoodson7 <tgoodson7@cox.net> wrote:
Nick;  I appreciate the information on Methadone.  I
have never read nor
heard the complete story you related to us.  And
I certainly appreciate the soft touch in your
corrections.  Some of the
people on this list are a little more abrasive in
their
rebutals or disagreements;  not that I am all that
sensitive.. You did a
marvelous job of informing me about something that I
have more experience with than education.  I know
that dont make much sense
but it is with my Grandson.

He has been into drugs since age 12 and he is 24
years old.  Methadone is
insidious when it comes to breaking away.  I was
able to get Ibogaine treatment for him and he really
believes in Ibogaine.
It works.  In fact, one day I am going to take the
short course of therapy myself.  My daughter and I
have been living with
this nightmare for 12 years.  He has a genius I.Q.

For my Grandson, it came kinda late.  He is going to
do some hard time time
for transgressions committed along the way in
his desperate attempts to get drugs.  It is indeed a
pitifull thing to live
with this kind of plague.

I am sure you can guess my feelings considering this
god-awfull, grotesque,
monstrosity they call the “DRUG WAR”!!!!
Americans have been slow to pick up on political
indignities but never so
slow
as they are to get wise to this loathsome,
national BETRAYAL!!!!  What other country in this
whole wide world would let
a national treacherous institutionalized
PARADOX continue for nearly one hundred years;  it
started in 1914 with
passage of the Harrison Act.  It could sarcastically
be called the “One Hundred Years War”  a total
disasterous failure at a cost
of at least $1 Trillion Dollars and no end
visiable??

I guess pontificating is my  calling.

Tommy Goodson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 23, 2002 at 9:15:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Cool website Brett, thanks!

I’m curious sorry I always know I say that but I am. I
read the archives here finally, somewhere in the first
100 messages when this opened I think, I don’t know,
but it’s in the first 100 messages with Patrick, the
church of the inner light people some others, about
psychedelics and nootropics.

Then there was a second series of messages about
megadosing vitamins or something around 300 or so.

Do a lot of you now megadose vitamins or do smart
drugs? Do you find it helps in any way with staying
clean or is it more like something to do to keep
altering your state of mind because we’re always
wanting to do that? 🙂

Carla B

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying. Where
do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 23, 2002 at 9:10:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes you!

You said you got to pick your middle name too, then
never said what you picked.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 23, 2002 at 11:53:45 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying. Where do
you suggest I start
looking?!

qhi.co.uk

Brett

Dozing student in London

Best to u

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@cures-not-wars.org]
Sent: 23 May 2002 03:47
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other
things

Pubdate: Tue, 21 May 2002
Source: San Jose Mercury News (CA)
Copyright: 2002 San Jose Mercury News
Contact: letters@sjmercury.com
Website: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/390
Author: Lisa M. Krieger, Mercury News

RESEARCH OFFERS NEW WAYS TO STUDY, ALTER BRAIN
FUNCTION BUT BENEFITS COME
WITH SOCIAL POLICY QUESTIONS

It’s another sleepless night at Stanford University.

But unlike the legions of students dozing over
textbooks, volunteers at the
Stanford Sleep Disorders Lab have pharmaceutical
help: a controversial new
drug called Provigil.

The medication, whose name is an abbreviation of the
words “promotes
vigilance,” keeps the mind fully awake and
attentive without the euphoric
“buzz” or jittery nerves of amphetamines and
caffeine. It could prevent
deadly mistakes by sleep-deprived truck drivers,
doctors and other
nighttime workers — but also poses the risk of
misuse in a culture fueled
by a 24/7 ethos.

Provigil is but one of many provocative new tools to
come out of the
growing field of brain research.

URL:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n959.a07.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 23, 2002 at 8:24:07 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana, I need some Provigil – I’m studying. Where do you suggest I start
looking?!

Dozing student in London

Best to u

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@cures-not-wars.org]
Sent: 23 May 2002 03:47
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things

Pubdate: Tue, 21 May 2002
Source: San Jose Mercury News (CA)
Copyright: 2002 San Jose Mercury News
Contact: letters@sjmercury.com
Website: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/390
Author: Lisa M. Krieger, Mercury News

RESEARCH OFFERS NEW WAYS TO STUDY, ALTER BRAIN FUNCTION BUT BENEFITS COME
WITH SOCIAL POLICY QUESTIONS

It’s another sleepless night at Stanford University.

But unlike the legions of students dozing over textbooks, volunteers at the
Stanford Sleep Disorders Lab have pharmaceutical help: a controversial new
drug called Provigil.

The medication, whose name is an abbreviation of the words “promotes
vigilance,” keeps the mind fully awake and attentive without the euphoric
“buzz” or jittery nerves of amphetamines and caffeine. It could prevent
deadly mistakes by sleep-deprived truck drivers, doctors and other
nighttime workers — but also poses the risk of misuse in a culture fueled
by a 24/7 ethos.

Provigil is but one of many provocative new tools to come out of the
growing field of brain research.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n959.a07.html

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 23, 2002 at 12:22:13 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

who, me?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

Carla B

— Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com> wrote:

“btw, just for the future, and in a very friendly
reminder, my name is
Preston Peet, (Peet, not Pete being my last name. I
can stand right in front
of someone spell my last name slowly clearly,
enunciating each letter one at
a time, and still 19 out of 20 will read it back to
me as P-E-T-E. Sigh.
Some people just don’t listen, eh?)so please feel
free to call me Preston.”

Sorry, Preston.  I had a friend whose last name was
Raftery.  She would tell it to people, and they
would say, “You mean Rafferty?”  And she wd reply,
NO, I KNOW what my name is!  I’ll try to be sharper
in the future.  Jane

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 22, 2002 at 10:40:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That reminded me, what middle name did you pick?

Carla B

— Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com> wrote:

“btw, just for the future, and in a very friendly
reminder, my name is
Preston Peet, (Peet, not Pete being my last name. I
can stand right in front
of someone spell my last name slowly clearly,
enunciating each letter one at
a time, and still 19 out of 20 will read it back to
me as P-E-T-E. Sigh.
Some people just don’t listen, eh?)so please feel
free to call me Preston.”

Sorry, Preston.  I had a friend whose last name was
Raftery.  She would tell it to people, and they
would say, “You mean Rafferty?”  And she wd reply,
NO, I KNOW what my name is!  I’ll try to be sharper
in the future.  Jane

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 22, 2002 at 8:43:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“btw, just for the future, and in a very friendly reminder, my name is
Preston Peet, (Peet, not Pete being my last name. I can stand right in front
of someone spell my last name slowly clearly, enunciating each letter one at
a time, and still 19 out of 20 will read it back to me as P-E-T-E. Sigh.
Some people just don’t listen, eh?)so please feel free to call me Preston.”
Sorry, Preston.  I had a friend whose last name was Raftery.  She would tell it to people, and they would say, “You mean Rafferty?”  And she wd reply, NO, I KNOW what my name is!  I’ll try to be sharper in the future.  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] A perfect speed,. among other things
Date: May 22, 2002 at 10:47:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Tue, 21 May 2002
Source: San Jose Mercury News (CA)
Copyright: 2002 San Jose Mercury News
Contact: letters@sjmercury.com
Website: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/390
Author: Lisa M. Krieger, Mercury News

RESEARCH OFFERS NEW WAYS TO STUDY, ALTER BRAIN FUNCTION BUT BENEFITS COME
WITH SOCIAL POLICY QUESTIONS

It’s another sleepless night at Stanford University.

But unlike the legions of students dozing over textbooks, volunteers at the
Stanford Sleep Disorders Lab have pharmaceutical help: a controversial new
drug called Provigil.

The medication, whose name is an abbreviation of the words “promotes
vigilance,” keeps the mind fully awake and attentive without the euphoric
“buzz” or jittery nerves of amphetamines and caffeine. It could prevent
deadly mistakes by sleep-deprived truck drivers, doctors and other
nighttime workers — but also poses the risk of misuse in a culture fueled
by a 24/7 ethos.

Provigil is but one of many provocative new tools to come out of the
growing field of brain research.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n959.a07.html

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 8:07:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal. Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted. When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that says volumes.
On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating reading. Thanks to all of you!
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Jon
|
| Which country are you in?

John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.

| You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts) but
| as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state of
| ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
| wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on HCV)
| cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or so

Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
pretty simple:

Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
then you are more or less — probably — okay.

This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.

Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
Q-T prolongation and torsades.

And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
Presto, you gots a dead body.

In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.

None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
already.

– – – – – – – – –

To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
wacked the fuck out.)

– – – – – – – – –

Now… Here’s the great big grey area…

What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.

Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
living.

To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).

All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
done to myself.

However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.

What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
want or don’t want.

And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
something similar.

This is called desperation.

To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.

Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
intentions were.

– – – – – – – – –

Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
rapidly.”

Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.

Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.

Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [bruce@iterative.com: FW: The Eternal Drug War]
Date: May 22, 2002 at 2:16:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Bruce Fancher” <bruce@iterative.com>
Subject: FW: The Eternal Drug War
Date: May 21, 2002 at 10:12:02 PM EDT
To: <digital@mindvox.com>,

Good article about drug war insanity . . .
—–Original Message—–
From: Mises Daily Article [mailto:article@mises.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:08 PM
To: article@mises.biglist.com
Subject: The Eternal Drug War

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=959

The Eternal Drug War

by William L. Anderson
[Post May 21, 2002]

It is a truism in U.S. political economy that whenever a government agency fails miserably, Congress invariably will reward it with more money, power, and discretion.
The horror of September 11, for example, came in large part because all of the major players, from the terrorists to the security agents to the pilots, were operating under Federal Aviation Administration guidelines for airline hijackings. Since the FAA prohibited anyone on board from fighting back, three groups of hijackers had near carte blanche in flying airliners into the World Trade Center Towers and the Pentagon.
The fourth “civilian missile” did not make it to its intended target because passengers and crew on board decided to break FAA rules. While they all died in their efforts, the airliner crashed into a deserted Pennsylvania field, not a public building. In the aftermath of this horrible fiasco, Congress has granted the FAA even more powers, along with an enlarged budget, to mismanage airline security.
As Murray Rothbard has eloquently demonstrated in his book America’s Great Depression (complete text), the Federal Reserve System engaged in an orgy of money creation during the 1920s, something that led to an inevitable crash and helped trigger the Great Depression. More than five decades later, in 1982, the Fed gave this nation some of its highest inflation rates ever and led us into a severe recession.
Not to be outdone, the Fed once again gave us oceans of new money and credit during the 1990s, leading to the current economic downturn. In the 1930s, Congress gave the Fed new powers, and the central bank also centralized its operations in Washington, D.C., building for itself an extravagant new Greek temple for its headquarters. During the 1980s and early 1990s, the Fed received new authority from Congress that basically gave the agency near absolute power in deciding U.S. banking policies. Even this latest Fed fiasco has not cost Chairman Alan Greenspan any loss of his undeserved prestige.
The latest federal agency to fall into this category has been the Office of National Drug Control Policy, which has actually admitted that its series of anti-drug advertisements has not worked to discourage young people >from experimenting with illegal drugs such as marijuana. Undeterred from reality checks, however, the agency is asking for another cash infusion of $180 million–which its director, John P. Walters, promises will be “better spent” than before–to produce more advertisements.
This is an election year, which means that few members of Congress will be willing to subject themselves to negative advertising accusing them of supporting “drug kingpins” and other such social undesirables. Thus, we can expect to see even more ridiculous “public service” advertisements that tell us that anyone who puffs marijuana is actually “supporting terrorism.”  (For that matter, since a portion of the revenues from Middle East oil invariably funds “terrorist” groups, can one then claim that anyone who purchases gasoline or diesel fuel is “supporting terrorism”?)
According to Walters, who wears the title of “Drug Czar,” his office will “test” the commercials to see whether they actually do deter youngsters from experimenting with drugs. However, even if a group of 13-year-olds who view the commercial insist on the spot they will never take drugs, what is to stop them when they are 19? For that matter, have any of the hundreds of anti-drug ads we have seen on television or on billboards ever deterred anyone from taking drugs?
When it comes to the two-decades-old “War on Drugs,” more needs to be scrutinized than just the advertisements the government has dumped upon us. In my present home county in Maryland (Allegany County), the local census has been bolstered the past decade by the growing prison population here. At least half of the prisoners in this county and the United States–a nation that imprisons two million people, a fourth of those who are incarcerated in the world–are in jail for drug-related offenses.
The costs that this drug war imposes upon people cannot be underestimated. Not only do we bear the costs of building and maintaining prisons, but we also bear the burdens of creating vast new classes of people who are called criminals because they have engaged in mutually agreeable exchanges with other people. Governments at all levels gobble up vast amounts of resources to pay for this drug war, and there’s no end in sight.
Furthermore, as Paul Craig Roberts and Lawrence W. Stratton have eloquently pointed out in their book The Tyranny of Good Intentions, the drug war means that the police have been given new powers that they invariably misuse.[i]  Roberts and Stratton write:
Most Americans are unaware of the police state that is creeping up on us from many directions. The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) maintains confiscation squads at major airports and has turned airline and airport employees into informers by awarding them 10 percent of the confiscated assets (p. 3).
The authors point out the case of landscaper Willie Jones, who was carrying about $9,000 in cash to purchase nursery items in Houston, Texas. Police at the Nashville airport confiscated his money on the pretense that he might have been planning to purchase drugs. As Roberts and Stratton and many others have pointed out, law enforcement at all levels has used these “asset forfeiture” laws to seize people’s property on the flimsiest of accusations that someone “might” be contemplating the purchase of contraband.[ii]
Not only does government use lax drug laws to seize property, it also kills innocent citizens with absolutely no prospect of justice being done to the killers. Roberts and Stratton document the case of California landowner Donald Scott, who was shot dead by Los Angeles County police as they raided his home in search of drugs. Investigators found no drugs, of course.
Police documents later obtained by the Los Angeles Times show unequivocally that LA authorities were hoping to find drugs on Scott’s property so the government could confiscate his property and turn it over to the National Park Service, which for years had been demanding that the recalcitrant Scott sell the agency his scenic property. Despite the adverse publicity, the perpetrators of this crime went unpunished.
Time and again, we find situations in which law enforcement authorities and lawmakers have abused their powers, all in the name of fighting illegal drugs. People who advocate the legalization of drugs like to point out that the “war on drugs” really is a “war on people.”
That war, as I have noted, takes shape in many forms. There is the violent war that government wages on whoever might be in the way, as Donald Scott’s family found out. Then, there is the war on the senses that so much anti-drug advertising turns out to be. Ultimately, we find that government wages a war on freedom itself. And for doing those things, Congress rewards the perpetrators of these crimes by giving them more money and power. Like the Federal Reserve and the FAA, anti-drug agencies are destined to suck up resources and spit back tyranny.

William Anderson, an adjunct scholar of the Mises Institute, teaches economics at Frostburg State University.  Send him MAIL.  See his Mises.org Articles Archive.

[i] Roberts, Paul Crain and Lawrence, W. Stratton, The Tyranny of Good Intentions.  Roseville, California: Forum, 2000.
[ii] See William L. Anderson and Gene Callahan, “The Roots of Racial Profiling,” Reason Magazine, August 2001.
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 2:12:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Jon
|
| Which country are you in?

John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
insanity.  Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
am.  Or Miami even, to put it another way.

| You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts) but
| as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state of
| ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
| wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on HCV)
| cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or so

Look…  Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
dust, then sift through it sideways searching for <whatever>.  But it’s
pretty simple:

Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy.  However,
this is going off on a tangent.  If you run the standard, simple blood
tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
then you are more or less — probably — okay.

This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine.  There is a certain percentage
of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.

Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
dose.  However.  If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
the world, I do not know…  I just know what happens here.  It should not
be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
Q-T prolongation and torsades.

And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
Presto, you gots a dead body.

In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.

None of these are Great Secrets.  All this shit has been published
already.

– – – – – – – – –

To summarize:  You need roughly half your liver still going.  (presuming
this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
wacked the fuck out.)

– – – – – – – – –

Now…  Here’s the great big grey area…

What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.

Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
living.  <shrug>

To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).

All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
done to myself.

However…  Were my tests NOT normal.  Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment?  FUCK
NO.  Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED.  I do not give
a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go.  Oh well.

What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
or out of those offices, will go to ME instead.  You’re not gonna stop me,
I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
want or don’t want.

And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
something similar.

This is called desperation.  <see also: drug dependence>

To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
lives back.  However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
with…  I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
fits this criteria…  If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.

Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
in your next life.  But yours have just begun.  You now have a dead body,
and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
intentions were.

– – – – – – – – –

Having said all that, what would I personally do…  I would have at the
very least a basic emergency kit onhand.  I would hope for the best, and I
wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe…  This may be
stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
feelings…  I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
rapidly.”

Beyond that, it’s very hard to say…  Is this person all fucked up and
acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
or because there’s something seriously wrong with them…  Getting that
answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.

Because, as I may have mentioned…  People who are desperate, tend to lie
an awful lot.  Especially when they have very little left to lose.

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 12:04:16 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeh John Those trest I mention, and the Liver Biopsy are b2 different
things, and the latter is the one that will give you most of the info u need
about the state of the Liver

Sorry this is short; gotta work more

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: John Pablo [mailto:jpp71@hotmail.com]
Sent: 22 May 2002 16:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Yes, those are the tests I am refering to, but short of a biopsy, I am not
aware of any other methods to measure the liver’s condition?  If there are
others, I would certainly be interested in learning about them?  Also, those

aforementioned tests are what the consulting physicians here use to at least

roughly guage an individuals liver fitness.  Oh, I am in the US.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:13:25 +0100

Jon

Which country are you in?

You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts) but
as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state of
ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on HCV)
cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
so

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: John Pablo [mailto:jpp71@hotmail.com]
Sent: 22 May 2002 14:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Hatie,
Well, I don’t know about the medicine being practiced where your doctor
friend is, but here, there are simple blood tests that are considered
reliable as to measuring liver function.  In fact, it a whole series of
tests commonly called the liver panel function group of tests.  Considering
I am at a main International reknown medical facility, maybe it is a unique
thing, but I’m pretty sure the liver function panel of tests have been
around for some time.  Your idea of lifestyle checklist is also a great
one.

Certainly if they presently have an illness or continuing behaviors that
would be stressing their liver, then it would be best to hold off or go
real

slow.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:45:26 +0100

Hats, just to repeat what I was ‘saying’ earlier. Anybody who is
particularly ill with anything, whether it be HIV, Liver damage due to
whichever Hep viruses etc, caution always. It is certainly true that
until
you have a Liver biopsy, the full extent of any liver damage (or not) is
very hard if not impossible to see/know

Prob with Liver Biopsies though: we are told at the hospital that there
is
a
1/1000 chance of you bleeding to death, which doesn’t exactly encourage u
to
go for it (even though the danger is low) but it is very painful, AND if
you
are loud about needing painkillers/opiates (gotta be in this case as pain
is
that intense) they are unlikely to give you them!!! I was very demure
about
it AT FIRST. Eventually, I did get rather angry, give my life-story (non
of
their bizz, but since I had been ‘clean’ for 4 yrs,) they stopped
resisting
and gave me something (Yum!)

Anyway, you just asked for comments: bottom line/can be issues with
biopsies. Actually, I’m almost certain that the damage they did to my
liver
at biopsy is/was greater than the damage I actually have as a result of
HCV!! (oh well, we live and learn…)

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 21 May 2002 18:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/21/02 2:24 PM, Brett Calabrese at bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:

Brett,

Thanks very much for taking the time out to help with some of my queries.

I
really appreciate it. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is a doctor
and
she said that it is hard without carrying out a biopsy to see to what
extent
the liver is damaged. liver function tests actually don’t tell you that
much
nor do the Hep C tests. I have just had someone here who had hepC and had
had Hep B and A. So I got on the phone to check out dangers etc. I was
told
to enquire into lifestyle, how much he is abusing his liver and how
frequently. She said that in her understanding of ibogaine, a liver that
cannot metabolise the ibogaine quickly enough or sufficiently leads to
toxic
levels of ibogaine in the blood which then in turn will stress the heart,
and therefore to ensure that they have had an ECG. So I asked the guy
about
his heart and he had had heart problems several years earlier, “a slow
retard on the left side” he said, whatever that means. But he was also a
binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker etc. There seemed to
be
too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t treat until he had had a
heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a 10mg/kg dose.
Anyone got any comments…….

Hattie,

This is my understanding, get others.

The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability to
metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow metabolizers
(some people do not have the ability to metabolize
ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1) can
cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without metabolizing
(quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic), ibogaine
blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the blood.
Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high to
start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason for
test doses and extra care must be taken with patients
with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone who
does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to give a
test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in give
it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion never
to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient in
England (most recent) who died and Liver damage (Hep C
I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
with Hep C or liver damage can and have successfully
been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of having
been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in the
way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine unless
there is liver damage/impaired ability to metabolize
ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk from
Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
anything else – in normal healthy people using normal
healthy doses.

IMO, any health problems should be looked into
carefully before administration of ibogaine, not just
liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which are
meaningless in relation to administration of ibogaine.
I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance –
it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that is
particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be (and
this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller dose
(eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a full
dose rather than stress them out too much. This might
have been a good idea for the English patient who died
who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all
the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who
treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under
control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines
on this.

Thanks

__________________________________________________
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LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Boje Renee” <evesmagicgarden@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 22, 2002 at 11:57:53 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

please remove me from this list!!!

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm  Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:38:18 +0200

September 11? Seems like a bad day for americans…. I wonder what else
happened on September 11 in 50 years between!

Marko

At 15:40 20.5.2002, you wrote:

On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820 (Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “John Pablo” <jpp71@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 11:50:06 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, those are the tests I am refering to, but short of a biopsy, I am not aware of any other methods to measure the liver’s condition?  If there are others, I would certainly be interested in learning about them?  Also, those aforementioned tests are what the consulting physicians here use to at least roughly guage an individuals liver fitness.  Oh, I am in the US.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:13:25 +0100

Jon

Which country are you in?

You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts) but
as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state of
ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on HCV)
cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or so

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: John Pablo [mailto:jpp71@hotmail.com]
Sent: 22 May 2002 14:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Hatie,
Well, I don’t know about the medicine being practiced where your doctor
friend is, but here, there are simple blood tests that are considered
reliable as to measuring liver function.  In fact, it a whole series of
tests commonly called the liver panel function group of tests.  Considering
I am at a main International reknown medical facility, maybe it is a unique
thing, but I’m pretty sure the liver function panel of tests have been
around for some time.  Your idea of lifestyle checklist is also a great one.

Certainly if they presently have an illness or continuing behaviors that
would be stressing their liver, then it would be best to hold off or go real

slow.

>From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:45:26 +0100
>
>Hats, just to repeat what I was ‘saying’ earlier. Anybody who is
>particularly ill with anything, whether it be HIV, Liver damage due to
>whichever Hep viruses etc, caution always. It is certainly true that until
>you have a Liver biopsy, the full extent of any liver damage (or not) is
>very hard if not impossible to see/know
>
>Prob with Liver Biopsies though: we are told at the hospital that there is
>a
>1/1000 chance of you bleeding to death, which doesn’t exactly encourage u
>to
>go for it (even though the danger is low) but it is very painful, AND if
>you
>are loud about needing painkillers/opiates (gotta be in this case as pain
>is
>that intense) they are unlikely to give you them!!! I was very demure about
>it AT FIRST. Eventually, I did get rather angry, give my life-story (non of
>their bizz, but since I had been ‘clean’ for 4 yrs,) they stopped resisting
>and gave me something (Yum!)
>
>Anyway, you just asked for comments: bottom line/can be issues with
>biopsies. Actually, I’m almost certain that the damage they did to my liver
>at biopsy is/was greater than the damage I actually have as a result of
>HCV!! (oh well, we live and learn…)
>
>Andria E-Mordaunt
>Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
>
>MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
>0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
>0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
>
>andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
>or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
>
>
>
>—–Original Message—–
>From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
>Sent: 21 May 2002 18:48
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>
>
>on 5/21/02 2:24 PM, Brett Calabrese at bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>Brett,
>
>Thanks very much for taking the time out to help with some of my queries. I
>really appreciate it. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is a doctor
>and
>she said that it is hard without carrying out a biopsy to see to what
>extent
>the liver is damaged. liver function tests actually don’t tell you that
>much
>nor do the Hep C tests. I have just had someone here who had hepC and had
>had Hep B and A. So I got on the phone to check out dangers etc. I was told
>to enquire into lifestyle, how much he is abusing his liver and how
>frequently. She said that in her understanding of ibogaine, a liver that
>cannot metabolise the ibogaine quickly enough or sufficiently leads to
>toxic
>levels of ibogaine in the blood which then in turn will stress the heart,
>and therefore to ensure that they have had an ECG. So I asked the guy about
>his heart and he had had heart problems several years earlier, “a slow
>retard on the left side” he said, whatever that means. But he was also a
>binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker etc. There seemed to
>be
>too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t treat until he had had a
>heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a 10mg/kg dose.
>Anyone got any comments…….
>
> > Hattie,
> >
> > This is my understanding, get others.
> >
> > The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability to
> > metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
> > damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow metabolizers
> > (some people do not have the ability to metabolize
> > ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1) can
> > cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
> > absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without metabolizing
> > (quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic), ibogaine
> > blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the blood.
> > Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
> > times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high to
> > start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason for
> > test doses and extra care must be taken with patients
> > with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone who
> > does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to give a
> > test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in give
> > it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
> > handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion never
> > to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
> > stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient in
> > England (most recent) who died and Liver damage (Hep C
> > I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
> > blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
> > with Hep C or liver damage can and have successfully
> > been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of having
> > been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in the
> > way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine unless
> > there is liver damage/impaired ability to metabolize
> > ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk from
> > Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
> > anything else – in normal healthy people using normal
> > healthy doses.
> >
> > IMO, any health problems should be looked into
> > carefully before administration of ibogaine, not just
> > liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which are
> > meaningless in relation to administration of ibogaine.
> > I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance –
> > it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that is
> > particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be (and
> > this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller dose
> > (eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a full
> > dose rather than stress them out too much. This might
> > have been a good idea for the English patient who died
> > who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.
> >
> > Brett
> >
> >
> > — Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
> >> Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
> >> dangers are with ibogaine
> >> consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all
> >> the time and I have never
> >> been very clear. I know treatment providers who
> >> treat people with Hep C, and
> >> I have done once with someone whose count was under
> >> control and low.
> >> But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines
> >> on this.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
> > http://launch.yahoo.com
> >
> >

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 11:46:56 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 5/21/02 1:17:09 PM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:

But he was also a binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker etc.
There >seemed to be too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t treat
until he had had
a heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a 10mg/kg dose.
Anyone got any comments…….

Sometimes if the patient does not provide a good health profile and you have
a gut instinct not to treat, it may be best not to treat that patient.  That
is not to say that your apparently healthy patient will not surprise you and
wind up in the Emergency ward.

In many of the research protocols HCV and AIDS patients were excluded but,
many patients with HCV and some with AIDS have been treated.  All of the
patients who I am aware of with HCV and AIDS who were treated were not
symptomatic.  Setting HCV and AIDS aside, the National Institute on Drug
Abuse (NIDA) in their draft ibogaine protocol stipulated the rejection of
patient’s whose liver enzymes were greater than 400%    of normal lab
readings.

While it is an involved reading, the ibogaine manual
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html> provides specific links in the additional
documents section to in depth information on blood tests, ekgs and the merck
manual, a handbook of diagnostic disorders in case you want to review
conditions exhibited by prospective patients.

Are you using a medical health questionnaire in your patient intake?  It is
the kind most doctors use when first accepting a patient.  It can easily
point out red flags and allow you to then ask further questions.

If you have medical concerns about a patient don’t treat them.  Ibogaine is
experimental.  The practice of medicine itself consists of endless
experiments on patients.  Adverse events and fatalities are common to the
practice of medicine.   Be prepared to call on credentialed medical doctors
should your patient require it.  Those who are providing ibogaine outside of
approved medical facilities are on a narrow ledge of social responsibility.
Nothing you don’t know.

Howard

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 9:13:25 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jon

Which country are you in?

You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts) but
as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state of
ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on HCV)
cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or so

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: John Pablo [mailto:jpp71@hotmail.com]
Sent: 22 May 2002 14:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Hatie,
Well, I don’t know about the medicine being practiced where your doctor
friend is, but here, there are simple blood tests that are considered
reliable as to measuring liver function.  In fact, it a whole series of
tests commonly called the liver panel function group of tests.  Considering
I am at a main International reknown medical facility, maybe it is a unique
thing, but I’m pretty sure the liver function panel of tests have been
around for some time.  Your idea of lifestyle checklist is also a great one.

Certainly if they presently have an illness or continuing behaviors that
would be stressing their liver, then it would be best to hold off or go real

slow.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:45:26 +0100

Hats, just to repeat what I was ‘saying’ earlier. Anybody who is
particularly ill with anything, whether it be HIV, Liver damage due to
whichever Hep viruses etc, caution always. It is certainly true that until
you have a Liver biopsy, the full extent of any liver damage (or not) is
very hard if not impossible to see/know

Prob with Liver Biopsies though: we are told at the hospital that there is
a
1/1000 chance of you bleeding to death, which doesn’t exactly encourage u
to
go for it (even though the danger is low) but it is very painful, AND if
you
are loud about needing painkillers/opiates (gotta be in this case as pain
is
that intense) they are unlikely to give you them!!! I was very demure about
it AT FIRST. Eventually, I did get rather angry, give my life-story (non of
their bizz, but since I had been ‘clean’ for 4 yrs,) they stopped resisting
and gave me something (Yum!)

Anyway, you just asked for comments: bottom line/can be issues with
biopsies. Actually, I’m almost certain that the damage they did to my liver
at biopsy is/was greater than the damage I actually have as a result of
HCV!! (oh well, we live and learn…)

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 21 May 2002 18:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/21/02 2:24 PM, Brett Calabrese at bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:

Brett,

Thanks very much for taking the time out to help with some of my queries. I
really appreciate it. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is a doctor
and
she said that it is hard without carrying out a biopsy to see to what
extent
the liver is damaged. liver function tests actually don’t tell you that
much
nor do the Hep C tests. I have just had someone here who had hepC and had
had Hep B and A. So I got on the phone to check out dangers etc. I was told
to enquire into lifestyle, how much he is abusing his liver and how
frequently. She said that in her understanding of ibogaine, a liver that
cannot metabolise the ibogaine quickly enough or sufficiently leads to
toxic
levels of ibogaine in the blood which then in turn will stress the heart,
and therefore to ensure that they have had an ECG. So I asked the guy about
his heart and he had had heart problems several years earlier, “a slow
retard on the left side” he said, whatever that means. But he was also a
binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker etc. There seemed to
be
too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t treat until he had had a
heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a 10mg/kg dose.
Anyone got any comments…….

Hattie,

This is my understanding, get others.

The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability to
metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow metabolizers
(some people do not have the ability to metabolize
ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1) can
cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without metabolizing
(quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic), ibogaine
blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the blood.
Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high to
start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason for
test doses and extra care must be taken with patients
with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone who
does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to give a
test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in give
it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion never
to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient in
England (most recent) who died and Liver damage (Hep C
I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
with Hep C or liver damage can and have successfully
been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of having
been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in the
way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine unless
there is liver damage/impaired ability to metabolize
ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk from
Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
anything else – in normal healthy people using normal
healthy doses.

IMO, any health problems should be looked into
carefully before administration of ibogaine, not just
liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which are
meaningless in relation to administration of ibogaine.
I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance –
it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that is
particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be (and
this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller dose
(eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a full
dose rather than stress them out too much. This might
have been a good idea for the English patient who died
who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all
the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who
treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under
control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines
on this.

Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “John Pablo” <jpp71@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 9:09:45 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hatie,
Well, I don’t know about the medicine being practiced where your doctor friend is, but here, there are simple blood tests that are considered reliable as to measuring liver function.  In fact, it a whole series of tests commonly called the liver panel function group of tests.  Considering I am at a main International reknown medical facility, maybe it is a unique thing, but I’m pretty sure the liver function panel of tests have been around for some time.  Your idea of lifestyle checklist is also a great one.  Certainly if they presently have an illness or continuing behaviors that would be stressing their liver, then it would be best to hold off or go real slow.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:45:26 +0100

Hats, just to repeat what I was ‘saying’ earlier. Anybody who is
particularly ill with anything, whether it be HIV, Liver damage due to
whichever Hep viruses etc, caution always. It is certainly true that until
you have a Liver biopsy, the full extent of any liver damage (or not) is
very hard if not impossible to see/know

Prob with Liver Biopsies though: we are told at the hospital that there is a
1/1000 chance of you bleeding to death, which doesn’t exactly encourage u to
go for it (even though the danger is low) but it is very painful, AND if you
are loud about needing painkillers/opiates (gotta be in this case as pain is
that intense) they are unlikely to give you them!!! I was very demure about
it AT FIRST. Eventually, I did get rather angry, give my life-story (non of
their bizz, but since I had been ‘clean’ for 4 yrs,) they stopped resisting
and gave me something (Yum!)

Anyway, you just asked for comments: bottom line/can be issues with
biopsies. Actually, I’m almost certain that the damage they did to my liver
at biopsy is/was greater than the damage I actually have as a result of
HCV!! (oh well, we live and learn…)

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 21 May 2002 18:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/21/02 2:24 PM, Brett Calabrese at bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:

Brett,

Thanks very much for taking the time out to help with some of my queries. I
really appreciate it. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is a doctor and
she said that it is hard without carrying out a biopsy to see to what extent
the liver is damaged. liver function tests actually don’t tell you that much
nor do the Hep C tests. I have just had someone here who had hepC and had
had Hep B and A. So I got on the phone to check out dangers etc. I was told
to enquire into lifestyle, how much he is abusing his liver and how
frequently. She said that in her understanding of ibogaine, a liver that
cannot metabolise the ibogaine quickly enough or sufficiently leads to toxic
levels of ibogaine in the blood which then in turn will stress the heart,
and therefore to ensure that they have had an ECG. So I asked the guy about
his heart and he had had heart problems several years earlier, “a slow
retard on the left side” he said, whatever that means. But he was also a
binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker etc. There seemed to be
too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t treat until he had had a
heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a 10mg/kg dose.
Anyone got any comments…….

> Hattie,
>
> This is my understanding, get others.
>
> The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability to
> metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
> damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow metabolizers
> (some people do not have the ability to metabolize
> ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1) can
> cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
> absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without metabolizing
> (quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic), ibogaine
> blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the blood.
> Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
> times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high to
> start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason for
> test doses and extra care must be taken with patients
> with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone who
> does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to give a
> test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in give
> it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
> handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion never
> to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
> stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient in
> England (most recent) who died and Liver damage (Hep C
> I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
> blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
> with Hep C or liver damage can and have successfully
> been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of having
> been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in the
> way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine unless
> there is liver damage/impaired ability to metabolize
> ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk from
> Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
> anything else – in normal healthy people using normal
> healthy doses.
>
> IMO, any health problems should be looked into
> carefully before administration of ibogaine, not just
> liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which are
> meaningless in relation to administration of ibogaine.
> I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance –
> it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that is
> particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be (and
> this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller dose
> (eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a full
> dose rather than stress them out too much. This might
> have been a good idea for the English patient who died
> who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.
>
> Brett
>
>
> — Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
>> Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
>> dangers are with ibogaine
>> consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all
>> the time and I have never
>> been very clear. I know treatment providers who
>> treat people with Hep C, and
>> I have done once with someone whose count was under
>> control and low.
>> But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines
>> on this.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
> http://launch.yahoo.com
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 8:45:26 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hats, just to repeat what I was ‘saying’ earlier. Anybody who is
particularly ill with anything, whether it be HIV, Liver damage due to
whichever Hep viruses etc, caution always. It is certainly true that until
you have a Liver biopsy, the full extent of any liver damage (or not) is
very hard if not impossible to see/know

Prob with Liver Biopsies though: we are told at the hospital that there is a
1/1000 chance of you bleeding to death, which doesn’t exactly encourage u to
go for it (even though the danger is low) but it is very painful, AND if you
are loud about needing painkillers/opiates (gotta be in this case as pain is
that intense) they are unlikely to give you them!!! I was very demure about
it AT FIRST. Eventually, I did get rather angry, give my life-story (non of
their bizz, but since I had been ‘clean’ for 4 yrs,) they stopped resisting
and gave me something (Yum!)

Anyway, you just asked for comments: bottom line/can be issues with
biopsies. Actually, I’m almost certain that the damage they did to my liver
at biopsy is/was greater than the damage I actually have as a result of
HCV!! (oh well, we live and learn…)

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 21 May 2002 18:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/21/02 2:24 PM, Brett Calabrese at bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:

Brett,

Thanks very much for taking the time out to help with some of my queries. I
really appreciate it. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is a doctor and
she said that it is hard without carrying out a biopsy to see to what extent
the liver is damaged. liver function tests actually don’t tell you that much
nor do the Hep C tests. I have just had someone here who had hepC and had
had Hep B and A. So I got on the phone to check out dangers etc. I was told
to enquire into lifestyle, how much he is abusing his liver and how
frequently. She said that in her understanding of ibogaine, a liver that
cannot metabolise the ibogaine quickly enough or sufficiently leads to toxic
levels of ibogaine in the blood which then in turn will stress the heart,
and therefore to ensure that they have had an ECG. So I asked the guy about
his heart and he had had heart problems several years earlier, “a slow
retard on the left side” he said, whatever that means. But he was also a
binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker etc. There seemed to be
too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t treat until he had had a
heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a 10mg/kg dose.
Anyone got any comments…….

Hattie,

This is my understanding, get others.

The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability to
metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow metabolizers
(some people do not have the ability to metabolize
ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1) can
cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without metabolizing
(quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic), ibogaine
blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the blood.
Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high to
start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason for
test doses and extra care must be taken with patients
with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone who
does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to give a
test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in give
it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion never
to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient in
England (most recent) who died and Liver damage (Hep C
I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
with Hep C or liver damage can and have successfully
been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of having
been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in the
way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine unless
there is liver damage/impaired ability to metabolize
ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk from
Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
anything else – in normal healthy people using normal
healthy doses.

IMO, any health problems should be looked into
carefully before administration of ibogaine, not just
liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which are
meaningless in relation to administration of ibogaine.
I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance –
it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that is
particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be (and
this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller dose
(eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a full
dose rather than stress them out too much. This might
have been a good idea for the English patient who died
who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all
the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who
treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under
control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines
on this.

Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 22, 2002 at 8:36:24 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Until Ibogaine can be scientifically, and rigorously investigated, this
would be a difficult question to answer

However, my sense of it all, is that if somebody’s HCV is that advanced, it
may not be a good thing for the liver to have to metabolise. On the other
hand, if somebody is desperate to get off drugs and the HCV is only
partially hurting their Liver, why not go for it? I would, given the not too
seriou-state of ma liver

My guess though, is that people like Dr Mash and others are more likely to
err on the side of caution as a result of their answerability; besides, she
may well have a reason to be concerned: unitl it’s effectively researched,
we’ll never really know unless we learn from ‘patients’ who are willing to
risk it…

Speaking for myself, I don’t think Ibogaine hurt my Liver that much (if at
all)

Sorry to not be more conclusive Darlin’ Hat; where’s my diet sheet btw!?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 21 May 2002 11:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines on this.

Thanks

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] Recall: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroi n an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 22, 2002 at 8:10:48 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt would like to recall the message, “[ibogaine]
FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master
plan}”.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 22, 2002 at 8:03:52 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ali G – mmh; methinks it’s too close to racism for me to accept

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 20 May 2002 23:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin
an d afghanistan: the master plan}

On [Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:48:33PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| Andria,
|
| Lucy = The I love Lucy show. Classic American Television show.
|
| Dezi Arnez’s famous quote from the series :”Oh Lucy!  You Gotta Lotta
‘Splainin
| To Do”

Yeah, it was this, uhm, very dated — but amusing in retrospect — series
from the 50’s or 60’s or something, I dunno; I’ve only ever seen reruns of
it on Nick at Night.

But her husband would come home, the plot of the entire episode would be
her (Lucy) doing something crazy/wacky, like leaving the iron laying on
his favorite shirt or something, and then her trying to hide this from
him.

They had a slightly updated for our times, parody of it, on some comedy
station or another (possibly SNL), where the episodes were like “Gangsta
Bitches on Heroin.”  Where Lucy and her friend Ethel would get into drug
dealing and gang wars and things.  Luccccccccccccccccccy, the crips just
wacked out Ethel in a drive-by, you got some ‘splainin’ to do, what am I
gonna tell Fred?

I wouldn’t worry about it, you people have Ali G, whom nobody in America
has ever heard of.

Patrick

| — Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
| > Gamma
| >
| > Who/What is Lucy: U American’s confusing me – the poor little Brit(!)
all
| > the time.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 22, 2002 at 8:02:29 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oh, well maybe it shouldn’t be a sanints day then, unless we can call it St.
Peetmoby!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 20 May 2002 22:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

oh, and alleged columbine shooter Dylan Klebold was also born on sept. 11
—– Original Message —–
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

my birthday, the Chilean overthrow, um, Harry konic jr. and moby, all
September 11 birthday/disaster days.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

September 11? Seems like a bad day for americans…. I wonder what else
happened on September 11 in 50 years between!

Marko

At 15:40 20.5.2002, you wrote:

On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application
for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820
(Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 22, 2002 at 7:56:55 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow Preston – your birthday and my fave American popstars (moby) – Amazing.
I think these should days should now make Sept 11th a Saintrs day, or at
least auspicious – blessed-day somehow

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 20 May 2002 21:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

my birthday, the Chilean overthrow, um, Harry konic jr. and moby, all
September 11 birthday/disaster days.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

September 11? Seems like a bad day for americans…. I wonder what else
happened on September 11 in 50 years between!

Marko

At 15:40 20.5.2002, you wrote:

On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application
for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820
(Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] FW: Psychoactivity conference on ayahuasca, Amsterdam, November 22 – 24, 2002
Date: May 22, 2002 at 6:45:16 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

———-
From: “Psychoactivity” <info@psychoactivity.org>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:48:50 +0200
To: <info@psychoactivity.org>
Subject: Psychoactivity conference on ayahuasca, Amsterdam, November 22 – 24, 2002

You might all want to check this out. I got over my cocaine addiction using this plant medicine. Did me the world of good, There has been some very interesting work with ayahuasca and addiction in Holland that some of you may know about.

.. www.psychoactivity.org <http://www.psychoactivity.org>

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 21, 2002 at 2:07:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hattie,

You are covering bases quite well.

I was speaking to a friend of
mine who is a doctor and
she said that it is hard without carrying out a
biopsy to see to what extent
the liver is damaged. liver function tests actually
don’t tell you that much
nor do the Hep C tests.

Hep C tell you only if someone was exposed, not if
there is liver damage and there can be liver damage
without Hep C – it is just an indicator. Liver
function tests tell you more but true a liver biopsy
is best to assess damage. That said it would be a bit
extreme to have everyone exposed to Hep C have a
biopsy (not that they shouldn’t, it just may not be
doable for an addict in addiction and is more or less
necessary in each patient). It is always playing and
weighing the odds. To rule out EVERYTHING or rule out
treatment because of anything makes the odds of
dying/more damage from the disease far greater than
the risk of treatment. In other words one can be so
safe it does more damage than taking the risk, and
then there will always be some risk with tx (any
treatment for anything)

I have just had someone here
who had hepC and had
had Hep B and A. So I got on the phone to check out
dangers etc. I was told
to enquire into lifestyle, how much he is abusing
his liver and how
frequently. She said that in her understanding of
ibogaine, a liver that
cannot metabolize the ibogaine quickly enough or
sufficiently leads to toxic
levels of ibogaine in the blood which then in turn
will stress the heart,
and therefore to ensure that they have had an ECG.

IMO, EVERYONE (!!!) should have an ECG (EKG) before
being treated with ibogaine for addiction. Is it less
necessary/risky for a 22 year old strong man who wants
a low dose initiatory dose, of course and personally
if I were going to take a few grams of Indra I
wouldn’t think twice about the need for an EKG. On the
other hand if I needed a full blown dose (in a
depleted condition!) for the treatment of addiction,
sure I would have another if needed (just had one
though – all normal, except for that delay thingie
which is normal for me and quite harmless).

So I asked the guy about
his heart and he had had heart problems several
years earlier, “a slow
retard on the left side” he said, whatever that
means.

If you have the exact problem you could look it up
just to get an idea of what it is and if it is a
potential problem – but get the final answer from a
Doctor. Also, years ago isn’t good enough IMO,
especially for someone living a hard lifestyle.

But he was also a
binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker
etc.

Add in age, weight, diet, how much exercise/type of
work… helps.

There seemed to be
too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t
treat until he had had a
heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a
10mg/kg dose.

Lower doses do well enough for the physical addiction
(for most), though not as good as higher doses. It is
the post treatment success, the altered response to
drugs, the nor-ibogaine levels in adipose tissue that
offer prophalaxysis, the reduced/eliminated cravings,
the pound that RESET button… that the lower doses
don’t do (as) well with. I do not believe 2 10mg/kg
doses are as good as 1 20mg dose for treating
addiction but may be a better/safer bet. The 2nd dose
will also bump up nor-ibo levels to a more protective
level than the single 10mg/kg dose.

Anyone got any comments…….

Nah, not me. OH, got one.

IF your patient is starting to get drunk on less, this
is a VERY CLEAR danger sign (of liver damage).
Tolerance to drugs/alcohol in general is a bit of an
indicator as to how well they will do with ibo (not an
exact science). So, if they have a high tolerance to
drugs/alcohol, they are more likely to be OK than if
it is low or especially if it has diminished (bad,
very bad).  They should also be in better shape with
some clean time (after ibo #1) for a somewhat larger
dose – maybe you want to go to 12.5mg/kg (or whatever)
if they did really well on dose #1. You also might
find that patients who did a lot of tylenol containing
drugs (vicodin, tylenol #3, percocet… and especially
mixed with alcohol) will have more liver problems than
those who don’t/didn’t.  Tylenol has been linked to
1/3rd of all liver failure.

brett

Hattie,

This is my understanding, get others.

The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability
to
metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow
metabolizers
(some people do not have the ability to metabolize
ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1)
can
cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without
metabolizing
(quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic),
ibogaine
blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the
blood.
Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high
to
start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason
for
test doses and extra care must be taken with
patients
with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone
who
does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to
give a
test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in
give
it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion
never
to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient
in
England (most recent) who died and Liver damage
(Hep C
I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
with Hep C or liver damage can and have
successfully
been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of
having
been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in
the
way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine
unless
there is liver damage/impaired ability to
metabolize
ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk
from
Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
anything else – in normal healthy people using
normal
healthy doses.

IMO, any health problems should be looked into
carefully before administration of ibogaine, not
just
liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which
are
meaningless in relation to administration of
ibogaine.
I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance

it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that
is
particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be
(and
this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller
dose
(eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a
full
dose rather than stress them out too much. This
might
have been a good idea for the English patient who
died
who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me
all
the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who
treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was
under
control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety
guidelines
on this.

Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 21, 2002 at 2:01:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:00:14PM -0400], [John Pablo] wrote:

John!  You posted!  Big *kiss* big guy =)

Patrick

p.s., What the hell are you doing reading this crazy list, aren’t you
supposed to be working? =)

| As we all are aware, Hep C when active is a virus that attacks the liver,
| the filter/detoxifier of the body.  The main enzymes that are responsible
| for metabolizing a great percentage of the drugs we ingest are located in
| this organ.  Hence, if your liver was damaged from having been exposed to
| hepatitis C, then there is a good chance that the normal level of the
| enzyme that is required (i.e. cytochrome P450-2D6) to properly metabolize a
| typical oral dose of  ibogaine would not be present.  However, being tested
| positive for Hep C does not necessarily mean that your liver has been
| effected beyond recovery.  In fact, one’s immune system could concievably
| have succesfully combated the virus without ever having had symptoms, but
| of course they would still test positive for exposure.  So, to say someone
| is positive for Hep C simply means that their immune system has reacted to
| it and they have an antibody coded for the virus.  It does not state
| whether the person’s liver has been damaged by the exposure.  However, the
| “fitness” of their liver needs to be determined because there is a
| possibility that it could have been significantly effected.  I will depict
| the potential for potential problem with a simple analogy: Direct treatment
| of a Hep C positive person without further determination of their liver’s
| health is like playing russian roulette where you have anywhere from 1-3
| bullet(s) in a cylinder that holds 6 statistically depending on the overall
| population.  Hence there is a distinct possibility that an OD on ibogaine
| can occur and if the person has background respiratory or heart problems
| then it lead to very serious consequences.  Also, lack of the ability to
| metabolize ibogaine to noribogaine may significantly deter the opiate
| detoxifying as well as serotonergic component of the treatment…Oh well,
| just a thought!
|
|
|
| >From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
| >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
| >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
| >Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
| >Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:50:54 +0100
| >
| >Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the dangers are with ibogaine
| >consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all the time and I have
| >never
| >been very clear. I know treatment providers who treat people with Hep C,
| >and
| >I have done once with someone whose count was under control and low.
| >But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines on this.
| >
| >Thanks
| >
|
|
|
|
| _________________________________________________________________
| MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
| http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
|

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 21, 2002 at 1:59:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:30:53PM -0700], [vector6@space.com] wrote:

| You guys are nuts. You run banners for this?
|
| http://www.kenkappel.com/

It’s, uhm, a very long story.  You’d hafta ask Bruce, I didn’t have any
problems with Ken, although, in retrospect, he did sue me…  Bummer…
“Look Mr. Kappel, I am an attorney, not an editor, why do you keep writing
me a novel?”  <giggle>.

| What’s even more interesting is the domains you registered on Sep 18th!
| Hmmmmmmmmm…

| Domain Name: BUSHKNEW.COM
| Created on…………..: Tue, Sep 18, 2001
| Expires on…………..: Wed, Sep 18, 2002
| Record last updated on..: Tue, Sep 18, 2001

| And what is this???
|
| http://www.redcrossblues.com

It’s another long story, it’s just this THING (different from the THING
with green glowing headlights).

| You guys own some strange shit.

Look, you should stop searching for people’s names in the NIC.  I
absolutely, positively, and without a doubt, swear I do not own any of
that crazy nonsense.

| Are you into the idea of doing anything with bushknew? That’d be cool!

Yeah, sure, why not…  It’s just that we have 1001 other things to do,
and never got around to it.  Perhaps this would be an auspicious time to
start…  If anybody reading this wants to start Filling It Up with THE
TRUTH <yeah mahn!> Lemme know, and we’ll do sumthin’ entertaining.

Patrick

From: “John Pablo” <jpp71@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 21, 2002 at 2:00:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As we all are aware, Hep C when active is a virus that attacks the liver, the filter/detoxifier of the body.  The main enzymes that are responsible for metabolizing a great percentage of the drugs we ingest are located in this organ.  Hence, if your liver was damaged from having been exposed to hepatitis C, then there is a good chance that the normal level of the enzyme that is required (i.e. cytochrome P450-2D6) to properly metabolize a typical oral dose of  ibogaine would not be present.  However, being tested positive for Hep C does not necessarily mean that your liver has been effected beyond recovery.  In fact, one’s immune system could concievably have succesfully combated the virus without ever having had symptoms, but of course they would still test positive for exposure.  So, to say someone is positive for Hep C simply means that their immune system has reacted to it and they have an antibody coded for the virus.  It does not state whether the person’s liver has been damaged by the exposure.  However, the “fitness” of their liver needs to be determined because there is a possibility that it could have been significantly effected.  I will depict the potential for potential problem with a simple analogy: Direct treatment of a Hep C positive person without further determination of their liver’s health is like playing russian roulette where you have anywhere from 1-3 bullet(s) in a cylinder that holds 6 statistically depending on the overall population.  Hence there is a distinct possibility that an OD on ibogaine can occur and if the person has background respiratory or heart problems then it lead to very serious consequences.  Also, lack of the ability to metabolize ibogaine to noribogaine may significantly deter the opiate detoxifying as well as serotonergic component of the treatment…Oh well, just a thought!

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:50:54 +0100

Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines on this.

Thanks

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 21, 2002 at 1:35:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, May 21, 2002 at 06:20:30PM +0100], [Nick Sandberg] wrote:
|
| —– Original Message —–
| From: “Gamma” <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
| To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
| Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 2:18 AM
| Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d
| afghanistan: the master plan}
|
|
| >
| > — “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
| >
| > > I wouldn’t worry about it, you people have Ali G, whom nobody in America
| > > has ever heard of.
| > >
| > > Patrick
| >
| > Now who the heck is Ali G? I feel as tho I am missing out on some great
| peice
| > of English Culture.
| >
| > -Gamma
| >
|
| booyakasha!! Check dis, me iz hactually got me own web sight. Da hadress off
| it iz www.alig.com

Zactly!

Ali G i brilliant yo!  I iz rede!

Nevermind, I’ll send ya email, and <file share> some Ali G with you, or if
you have DSL finally goin’ you could, fer instance, enter “Ali G” into the
Search field on Morpheus (KaZaA is EVIL!), and obtain a large variety of
DVD’s which aren’t even for fucking sale in the US in the first place.

Patrick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 21, 2002 at 1:20:30 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Gamma” <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d
afghanistan: the master plan}

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

I wouldn’t worry about it, you people have Ali G, whom nobody in America
has ever heard of.

Patrick

Now who the heck is Ali G? I feel as tho I am missing out on some great
peice
of English Culture.

-Gamma

booyakasha!! Check dis, me iz hactually got me own web sight. Da hadress off
it iz www.alig.com

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 21, 2002 at 1:47:56 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 5/21/02 2:24 PM, Brett Calabrese at bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:

Brett,

Thanks very much for taking the time out to help with some of my queries. I
really appreciate it. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is a doctor and
she said that it is hard without carrying out a biopsy to see to what extent
the liver is damaged. liver function tests actually don’t tell you that much
nor do the Hep C tests. I have just had someone here who had hepC and had
had Hep B and A. So I got on the phone to check out dangers etc. I was told
to enquire into lifestyle, how much he is abusing his liver and how
frequently. She said that in her understanding of ibogaine, a liver that
cannot metabolise the ibogaine quickly enough or sufficiently leads to toxic
levels of ibogaine in the blood which then in turn will stress the heart,
and therefore to ensure that they have had an ECG. So I asked the guy about
his heart and he had had heart problems several years earlier, “a slow
retard on the left side” he said, whatever that means. But he was also a
binge drinker, a user of 30 years plus, heavy smoker etc. There seemed to be
too many warning signs and so I said I wouldn’t treat until he had had a
heart test, and then I would go cautiously, a 10mg/kg dose.
Anyone got any comments…….

Hattie,

This is my understanding, get others.

The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability to
metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow metabolizers
(some people do not have the ability to metabolize
ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1) can
cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without metabolizing
(quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic), ibogaine
blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the blood.
Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high to
start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason for
test doses and extra care must be taken with patients
with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone who
does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to give a
test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in give
it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion never
to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient in
England (most recent) who died and Liver damage (Hep C
I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
with Hep C or liver damage can and have successfully
been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of having
been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in the
way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine unless
there is liver damage/impaired ability to metabolize
ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk from
Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
anything else – in normal healthy people using normal
healthy doses.

IMO, any health problems should be looked into
carefully before administration of ibogaine, not just
liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which are
meaningless in relation to administration of ibogaine.
I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance –
it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that is
particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be (and
this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller dose
(eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a full
dose rather than stress them out too much. This might
have been a good idea for the English patient who died
who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all
the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who
treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under
control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines
on this.

Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 21, 2002 at 9:24:34 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hattie,

This is my understanding, get others.

The “dangers” have to do with any impaired ability to
metabolize ibogaine into nor-ibogaine. Any liver
damage (Hep C, cerosis) OR so-called slow metabolizers
(some people do not have the ability to metabolize
ibogaine via the normal 2 channels and only use 1) can
cause problems. Ibogaine itself is toxic, rapidly
absorbed and rapidly metabolized. Without metabolizing
(quick enough) into nor-ibogaine (non-toxic), ibogaine
blood levels can reach dangerous levels in the blood.
Some numbers I came across were liver enzymes of 3
times normal is a danger sign – seems a bit high to
start being extra cautious to me. This is a reason for
test doses and extra care must be taken with patients
with liver damage. One method (I heard by someone who
does a lot of treatments) to deal with it is to give a
test dose (standard) and stepping doses – as in give
it a little at a time to judge how the patient is
handling the ibogaine.  NOTE, it is MY opinion never
to exceed maximum recommended doses when using
stepping doses – IN TOTAL. There was one patient in
England (most recent) who died and Liver damage (Hep C
I believe) was a contributing factor, from memory
blood ibogaine levels were unusually high.  People
with Hep C or liver damage can and have successfully
been treated with ibogaine. The simple fact of having
been infected with Hep C does absolutely zero in the
way of increasing any danger to taking ibogaine unless
there is liver damage/impaired ability to metabolize
ibogaine – no liver damage = no increased risk from
Hep C. Ibogaine itself will not harm the liver or
anything else – in normal healthy people using normal
healthy doses.

IMO, any health problems should be looked into
carefully before administration of ibogaine, not just
liver damage or heart abnormalities (some of which are
meaningless in relation to administration of ibogaine.
I have a benign abnormality in my EKG for instance –
it is meaningless and harmless). In an addict that is
particularly “beat up” (by addiction) it may be (and
this has been done) a good idea to give a smaller dose
(eg 10mg/kg) till they recouperate enough to do a full
dose rather than stress them out too much. This might
have been a good idea for the English patient who died
who I understood to be in pretty bad shape.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the
dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all
the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who
treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under
control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines
on this.

Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: May 21, 2002 at 6:50:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Can anyone clarify for everyone what exactly the dangers are with ibogaine
consumption by those with Hep C? People ask me all the time and I have never
been very clear. I know treatment providers who treat people with Hep C, and
I have done once with someone whose count was under control and low.
But does anyone have any serious safety guidelines on this.

Thanks

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 20, 2002 at 11:30:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You guys are nuts. You run banners for this? http://www.kenkappel.com/ What’s even more interesting is the domains you registered on Sep 18th! Hmmmmmmmmm… http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=bushknew.com&SearchType=do Organization: Iterative Development Bruce Fancher 50 Lexington Ave, Suite 102 New York, NY 10010 US Phone: 212-473-4365 Email: bruce@iterative.com Registrar Name….: Register.com Registrar Whois…: whois.register.com Registrar Homepage: http://www.register.com Domain Name: BUSHKNEW.COM Created on…………..: Tue, Sep 18, 2001 Expires on…………..: Wed, Sep 18, 2002 Record last updated on..: Tue, Sep 18, 2001 And what is this??? http://www.redcrossblues.com You guys own some strange shit. Are you into the idea of doing anything with bushknew? That’d be cool! .:vector:. On Mon, 20 May 2002, “preston peet” wrote > > >Oh Lucy! You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do” > > > > A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH – IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T > > INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?< > > > Sorry all, > Whlie this has nothing at all that I can see with ibogaine, for a > contantly updated list of links, (including a few by my friend Mike Ruppert, > cited above) photos taken from my LES rooftop on my birthday Sept 11, lead > in by my own personal view of this latest round of revelations and spin, > PLEASE check out my page: > > http://www.drugwar.com/pprewtcwarnings.shtm
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 20, 2002 at 9:24:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:52:11PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

Look, that’s all crazy talk.  Probably it was just some THING which
escaped from all the experimental labs they have in this building.

Doubtlessly, it’s completely harmless and after finding some other
THING to reproduce with, will integrate just super-fine with the rest of
the ecosystem, and everything will live in perfect harmony.  Forever and
ever.  Unless it doesn’t.

I’m telling you MAN, those green headlights are calibrated to detect motion in
the millionths of an inch, and spectro-analisized to be cognizent of all levels
of beings, in this dimension that we call reality, and the layers above and
below it.

They are simalar to the metalic bugs that plagued my hotel room down on Hyde
and Ellis Street in S.F.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 20, 2002 at 9:18:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

I wouldn’t worry about it, you people have Ali G, whom nobody in America
has ever heard of.

Patrick

Now who the heck is Ali G? I feel as tho I am missing out on some great peice
of English Culture.

-Gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] NIDA neurotox data found fraudulent
Date: May 20, 2002 at 10:54:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Sun, 19 May 2002
Source: Daily Telegraph (Australia)
Copyright: 2002 News Limited
Contact: dtmletr@matp.newsltd.com.au
Website: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/113
Author: Robert Uhlig

ECSTASY FEARS BASED ON ‘FLAWED TESTS’

MUCH of the scientific evidence showing that ecstasy damages the brain is
fundamentally flawed and has been mistakenly used by politicians to warn
the public of the dangers of the drug, a report said yesterday.

The inquiry by New Scientist found that many of the findings on ecstasy
published in respected journals could not be trusted. It said it was an
“open secret” that some researchers who failed to find impairment in
ecstasy users had trouble getting their findings published.

“Our investigation suggests the experiments are so irretrievably flawed
that the scientific community risks haemorrhaging credibility if it
continues to let them inform public policy,” the report said.

It found there were serious flaws in brain scans which allegedly show that
ecstasy destroys nerve cells involved in the production and transport of
serotonin, a vital brain chemical involved in a range of functions
including memory, sleep, sex, appetite and mood.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n947.a06.html
———-

From: “tgoodson7” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 20, 2002 at 7:44:35 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick;  I appreciate the information on Methadone.  I have never read nor
heard the complete story you related to us.  And
I certainly appreciate the soft touch in your corrections.  Some of the
people on this list are a little more abrasive in their
rebutals or disagreements;  not that I am all that sensitive.. You did a
marvelous job of informing me about something that I
have more experience with than education.  I know that dont make much sense
but it is with my Grandson.

He has been into drugs since age 12 and he is 24 years old.  Methadone is
insidious when it comes to breaking away.  I was
able to get Ibogaine treatment for him and he really believes in Ibogaine.
It works.  In fact, one day I am going to take the
short course of therapy myself.  My daughter and I have been living with
this nightmare for 12 years.  He has a genius I.Q.

For my Grandson, it came kinda late.  He is going to do some hard time time
for transgressions committed along the way in
his desperate attempts to get drugs.  It is indeed a pitifull thing to live
with this kind of plague.

I am sure you can guess my feelings considering this god-awfull, grotesque,
monstrosity they call the “DRUG WAR”!!!!
Americans have been slow to pick up on political indignities but never so
slow
as they are to get wise to this loathsome,
national BETRAYAL!!!!  What other country in this whole wide world would let
a national treacherous institutionalized
PARADOX continue for nearly one hundred years;  it started in 1914 with
passage of the Harrison Act.  It could sarcastically
be called the “One Hundred Years War”  a total disasterous failure at a cost
of at least $1 Trillion Dollars and no end visiable??

I guess pontificating is my  calling.

Tommy Goodson

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

—– Original Message —–
From: “tgoodson7” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 2:59 AM
Subject: Fw: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

As I understand it the Rockafellers bought the exclusive license to
manufacture and distribute Methadone from Germany after
WW II.  If you will remember, Hitler had his medical geniuses invent
Methadone as a substitute for opiates because Germany
was cut off from their supplies of Opiates for wounded battle field
soldiers.

So, with a Billion Dollar campaign fund you would find an awfull lot of
opposition to any kind of competition for Methadone!!
This monopoly on Methadone probably financially sustains the Rockafeller
University in New York.  At least I understand
the license is in trust to the University or some kind financial
arrangement
for the benefit for the University.  I am sure you guys
remember that Methadone as originally compounded was called “Adolfine”
for
Adolf Hitler; however, can you imagine anyone
in this US adapting to anything named after its worste enemy so the name
Methadone was probably born from such
sentiments.  Just a suggestion from an ‘ol Man, a surviving relic of WW
II.

Tommy Goodson    No, I was not in the European Theater of war; I was in
the
South Pacific!!!

Seem to recall some people debating the origin of the word “adolfine” a
couple of years ago on one of these lists. The “hitler” argument is a
great
story but there seemed to be a bit of dispute as to how accurate it really
is. Can’t recall if any conclusions were reached. Whatever, the patent
rights for the drug will be long expired by now, so anyone can make and
market the stuff, the Rockefellas or anyone else won’t have exclusive
rights. I’m pretty sure that if you check it out in a pharm company’s
lists
you’ll find it really is very cheap (certainly a lot cheaper than ibogaine
which Sigma list at US$150/g, if I remember right). So, I don’t think
there
is so much of an argument that Corporate America is sticking with
methadone
for the money.

I get to talk to quite a few people about ibogaine and, personally, I
think
it’s more of a fear thing. People are afraid of the unknown and iboga is a
big unknown. To be suddenly confronted with the idea of a drug that can
potentially not only eliminate drug withdrawal, but also reduce/eliminate
craving and address psychological issues underpinning drug use seems to be
scarey stuff for a lot of people in the drug business. Usually quite sane
scientists and drug commentators are known to come out with some of the
most
ridiculous pronouncements when confronted with ibo and, personally, I’m
convinced it’s a fear thing. Dr Colin Brewer, head of the UK’s Stapleton
Clinic, and reputedly well regarded by the Home Office drugs unit, is
normally a fairly stable and sober kind of guy. But ask him for a quote
about ibogaine and he sees red and starts spouting off the most
ludicrously
unscientific pronouncements about the drug, resisting any attempts by
anyone, qualified or otherwise, to point out to him the obvious error of
his
ways, and he’s not the only one. Government spokesmen, like I believe,
Luke
Robinson of the HO drugs unit, are also content to just make things up,
again resisting any attempt at meaningful dialogue, all of which appear to
come down to the statement “Ibogaine is outside our existing paradigm for
the treatment of drug dependency [apparently because it’s not a substitute
medication {!!}] and so we have no plans to research it.”

And so it goes.

Nick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 20, 2002 at 6:09:56 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:52:11PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

Look, that’s all crazy talk.  Probably it was just some THING which
escaped from all the experimental labs they have in this building.

Doubtlessly, it’s completely harmless and after finding some other
THING to reproduce with, will integrate just super-fine with the rest of
the ecosystem, and everything will live in perfect harmony.  Forever and
ever.  Unless it doesn’t.

Patrick

| taking up bandwidth here, but I’d just like to add a “yeah” and another
| “yeah” to second these notes Patrick.;-))”/
| Peace,
| Preston
| —– Original Message —–
| From: <vector6@space.com>
| To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
| Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:57 PM
| Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
|
|
| > I am surprised someone as smart as you didn’t notice this obvious
| connection with the ufo and the “bugs” arriving. .:vector:. On Sun, 19 May
| 2002, Gamma wrote > > > > Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted
| Green Glowing > > Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in
| Florida, why have > > I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until
| Just Now… > > They are the products of bionano-technology. these bugs are
| actually > mechanicaly engineered biological spy devices, deploying cutting
| edge nano-tech > eavesdropping and information gathering devices coupled
| with biological cloning > techniques discovered in secret manuscripts
| burried 666 feet below the sphinx > in Egypt. > > The “Halo” you saw around
| the sun was a diversion tactic as these spys were > released enmasse above
| florida as stage one of operation headlight. > > The fact that there was one
| anywhere near you means you are currently under > surveilance and should
| exit Miami in a vacuum sealed container, preferably > imediately. These bugs
| with green headlights discharge parasites which enter > your body thru
| mucous membranes and make their way into your cerebral vortex > and transmit
| all of your thoughts to the great central database located under a >
| mountain in Virginia, known to many as Mt. Weather. > > more info
| forthcoming… > > -gamma > > >
| __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? >
| LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience > http://launch.yahoo.com
| > ___________________________________________________________________
| > Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.
| >
| >
|

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 20, 2002 at 6:02:45 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:48:33PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| Andria,
|
| Lucy = The I love Lucy show. Classic American Television show.
|
| Dezi Arnez’s famous quote from the series :”Oh Lucy!  You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin
| To Do”

Yeah, it was this, uhm, very dated — but amusing in retrospect — series
from the 50’s or 60’s or something, I dunno; I’ve only ever seen reruns of
it on Nick at Night.

But her husband would come home, the plot of the entire episode would be
her (Lucy) doing something crazy/wacky, like leaving the iron laying on
his favorite shirt or something, and then her trying to hide this from
him.

They had a slightly updated for our times, parody of it, on some comedy
station or another (possibly SNL), where the episodes were like “Gangsta
Bitches on Heroin.”  Where Lucy and her friend Ethel would get into drug
dealing and gang wars and things.  Luccccccccccccccccccy, the crips just
wacked out Ethel in a drive-by, you got some ‘splainin’ to do, what am I
gonna tell Fred?

I wouldn’t worry about it, you people have Ali G, whom nobody in America
has ever heard of.

Patrick

| — Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
| > Gamma
| >
| > Who/What is Lucy: U American’s confusing me – the poor little Brit(!) all
| > the time.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 20, 2002 at 5:07:21 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

oh, and alleged columbine shooter Dylan Klebold was also born on sept. 11
—– Original Message —–
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

my birthday, the Chilean overthrow, um, Harry konic jr. and moby, all
September 11 birthday/disaster days.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

September 11? Seems like a bad day for americans…. I wonder what else
happened on September 11 in 50 years between!

Marko

At 15:40 20.5.2002, you wrote:

On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application
for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820
(Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 20, 2002 at 4:48:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria,

Lucy = The I love Lucy show. Classic American Television show.

Dezi Arnez’s famous quote from the series :”Oh Lucy!  You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin
To Do”

— Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Gamma

Who/What is Lucy: U American’s confusing me – the poor little Brit(!) all
the time.

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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 20, 2002 at 4:25:19 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

my birthday, the Chilean overthrow, um, Harry konic jr. and moby, all
September 11 birthday/disaster days.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

September 11? Seems like a bad day for americans…. I wonder what else
happened on September 11 in 50 years between!

Marko

At 15:40 20.5.2002, you wrote:

On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application
for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820
(Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 20, 2002 at 2:57:43 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “tgoodson7” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 2:59 AM
Subject: Fw: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

As I understand it the Rockafellers bought the exclusive license to
manufacture and distribute Methadone from Germany after
WW II.  If you will remember, Hitler had his medical geniuses invent
Methadone as a substitute for opiates because Germany
was cut off from their supplies of Opiates for wounded battle field
soldiers.

So, with a Billion Dollar campaign fund you would find an awfull lot of
opposition to any kind of competition for Methadone!!
This monopoly on Methadone probably financially sustains the Rockafeller
University in New York.  At least I understand
the license is in trust to the University or some kind financial
arrangement
for the benefit for the University.  I am sure you guys
remember that Methadone as originally compounded was called “Adolfine” for
Adolf Hitler; however, can you imagine anyone
in this US adapting to anything named after its worste enemy so the name
Methadone was probably born from such
sentiments.  Just a suggestion from an ‘ol Man, a surviving relic of WW
II.

Tommy Goodson    No, I was not in the European Theater of war; I was in
the
South Pacific!!!

Seem to recall some people debating the origin of the word “adolfine” a
couple of years ago on one of these lists. The “hitler” argument is a great
story but there seemed to be a bit of dispute as to how accurate it really
is. Can’t recall if any conclusions were reached. Whatever, the patent
rights for the drug will be long expired by now, so anyone can make and
market the stuff, the Rockefellas or anyone else won’t have exclusive
rights. I’m pretty sure that if you check it out in a pharm company’s lists
you’ll find it really is very cheap (certainly a lot cheaper than ibogaine
which Sigma list at US$150/g, if I remember right). So, I don’t think there
is so much of an argument that Corporate America is sticking with methadone
for the money.

I get to talk to quite a few people about ibogaine and, personally, I think
it’s more of a fear thing. People are afraid of the unknown and iboga is a
big unknown. To be suddenly confronted with the idea of a drug that can
potentially not only eliminate drug withdrawal, but also reduce/eliminate
craving and address psychological issues underpinning drug use seems to be
scarey stuff for a lot of people in the drug business. Usually quite sane
scientists and drug commentators are known to come out with some of the most
ridiculous pronouncements when confronted with ibo and, personally, I’m
convinced it’s a fear thing. Dr Colin Brewer, head of the UK’s Stapleton
Clinic, and reputedly well regarded by the Home Office drugs unit, is
normally a fairly stable and sober kind of guy. But ask him for a quote
about ibogaine and he sees red and starts spouting off the most ludicrously
unscientific pronouncements about the drug, resisting any attempts by
anyone, qualified or otherwise, to point out to him the obvious error of his
ways, and he’s not the only one. Government spokesmen, like I believe, Luke
Robinson of the HO drugs unit, are also content to just make things up,
again resisting any attempt at meaningful dialogue, all of which appear to
come down to the statement “Ibogaine is outside our existing paradigm for
the treatment of drug dependency [apparently because it’s not a substitute
medication {!!}] and so we have no plans to research it.”

And so it goes.

Nick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin an d afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 20, 2002 at 1:10:48 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Gamma

Who/What is Lucy: U American’s confusing me – the poor little Brit(!) all
the time.

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 20 May 2002 07:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and
afghanistan: the master plan}

Reply-to: vox@mindvox.com
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 22:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: SNF <the_panty_sniffer@yahoo.com>
To: vox@mindvox.com
Subject: [vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and afghanistan: the
master plan}

“Oh Lucy!  You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do”

A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH – IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T
INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away

by

Michael C. Ruppert

[© COPYRIGHT 2001, All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The
Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be copied and distributed for
non-profit purposes only.]
[Expanded and Revised April 18, 2002]

FTW, November 2, 2001 – 1200 PST — On October 31, the French daily Le
Figaro
dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a
chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA
official
– presumably the Chief of Station. The meeting, held in bin Laden’s private
suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a
wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and this year’s
attack
on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000
intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office
in
January. Yet on July 14th he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet and
there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.

In 1985 Oliver North – the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who doesn’t
appear to have a hand in the current war – sent the Navy and commandos after
terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography
“Under
Fire,” while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, “I used to wonder:
how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?” One could look
at
the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before
September 11 and ask the same question.

It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events
both
before and after the September 11th suicide attacks, which have been blamed
on
bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that
there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their
execution. It also makes clear that the events which have taken place since
September 11th are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the
attacks.

One wonders how these events could have been ignored by the major media or
treated as isolated incidents. Failing that, how could skilled news agencies
avoid being outraged, or at least even just a little suspicious?

1. 1991-1997 – Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco,
Unocal,
BP Amoco, Shell and Enron directly invest billions in cash bribing heads of
state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in
these
regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in
Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to
Russia
to use Russian pipelines the major oil companies have no way to recoup their
investments. [“The Price of Oil,” by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July 9,
2001 – The Asia Times, “The Roving Eye Part I Jan. 26, 2002.]

2. December 4, 1997 – Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to
the
Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline.
Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly
because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

3. February 12, 1998 – Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca – later to
become
a Special Ambassador to Afghanistan – testifies before the House that until
a
single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan the
trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built.
[Source:
Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

4. 1998 – The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi
Arabia was harboring an al-Q’aeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more
detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August
2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times 1/12/01; See No Evil by a book by
Robert Baer (release date Feb. 2002).

5. April, 1999 – Enron with a $3 billion investment to build an electrical
generating plant at Dabhol India loses access to plentiful LNG supplies from
Qatar to fuel the plant. Its only remaining option to make the investment
profitable is a trans-Afghani gas pipeline to be built by Unocal from
Turkmenistan that would terminate near the Indian border at the city of
Multan.
[Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002.]

6. 1998 and 2000 – Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia
on
behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense
contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal
family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27,
2001.
See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 – “The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,” –
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/carlyle.html. ]

7. January, 2001 – The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence
agencies to “back off” investigations involving the bin Laden family,
including
two of Osama bin Laden’s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in
Falls
Church, VA – right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders
dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden
family.
[Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast – Nov 7, 2001].

8. Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while covering
a
trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers – reports that the National
Security
Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this
indicates
that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact
that
the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

9. May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to
the
Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since
the
destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime.
[Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].

10. May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert
operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while
CIA
Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani
leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani
intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil
decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while
in
Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,” also
met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the
ISI.
[Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]

11. June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that
Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use
as
weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.”
[Source:
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]

12. July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S.
Ambassador
to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South
Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South
Asia),
meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell
them
that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A
French book released in November, “Bin Laden – La Verite´ Interdite,”
discloses
that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers
confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source:
The
Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press
Service, Nov 16, 2001]

[Doug Note:  This book also has an interview with the FBI Anti-terrorist
head
who resigned in protest of the Bush administration telling the FBI to hold
off
their of pursuit of obvious terrorist operations in the US if they were
Saudi
or Afghan related.]

13. Summer, 2001 – The National Security Council convenes a Dabhol working
group as revealed in a series of government e-mails obtained by The
Washington
Post and the New York Daily News. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28,
2002]

14. Summer 2001 – According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain’s The Guardian,
correspondent David Leigh reported that, “U.S. department of defense
official,
Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian’s Felicity
Lawrence established that US Rangers were also training special troops in
Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special
troops
were training in Alaska and Montana.”

15. Summer 2001 (est.) – Pakistani ISI Chief General Ahmad (see above)
orders
an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, who was according to the
FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned
after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI. [Source:
The Times of India, October 11, 2001.]

16. Summer 2001 – An Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an
imminent attack on the World Trade Center in the week of September 9th.
German
police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not
reveal any further information. [Source: German news agency “online.de”,
September 14, 2001, translation retrieved from online.ie in Ireland.]

17. June 26, 2001 – The magazine indiareacts.com states that “India and Iran
will ‘facilitate’ US and Russian plans for ‘limited military action’ against
the Taliban.” The story indicates that the fighting will be done by US and
Russian troops with the help of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. [Source:
indiareacts.com, June 26, 2001.]

18. August 2001 – The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in
Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of
bin
Laden’s network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons.
At
the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on
Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, September 13.]

19. August 11 or 12 – US Navy Lt. Delmart “Mike” Vreeland, jailed in Toronto
on
U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence,
writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope
which
he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001;
Toronto Superior Court Records]

20. Summer 2001 – Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist
pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions. This is
reported
in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired
CIA
officer.

21. July 4-14, 2001 – Osama bin Laden receives treatments for kidney disease
at
the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official who returns to
CIA
headquarters on July 15th. [Source: Le Figaro, October 31st, 2001.]

22. August 2001 – Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian
intelligence
to warn the U.S. government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent
attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MS-NBC interview with
Putin, September 15.]

23. August/September, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly
900
points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is
imminent.

24. Sept. 3-10, 2001 – MS-NBC reports on September 16 that a caller to a
Cayman
Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the
U.S.
by bin Laden in the week prior to 9/11.

25. September 1-10, 2001 – In an exercise, Operation “Swift Sword” planned
for
four years, 23, 000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the
9/11
attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment the massive operation was
implemented
as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on
station
in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time,
some
17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation
“Bright Star.” All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits
the
World Trade Center. [Sources: The Guardian, CNN, FOX, The Observer,
International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]

26. September 7, 2001 – Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency
executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National
Guard
to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of
large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of
Florida web site listing of Governor’s Executive Orders.]

27. September 6-7, 2001 – 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock
will
go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call
options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and
abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the UAL puts are
purchased
through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current
Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya
International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism, http://www.ict.org.il/,
September 21; The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal.]

28. September 10, 2001 – 4,516 put options are purchased on American
Airlines
as compared to 748 call options. [Source: ICT – above]

29. September 6-11, 2001 – No other airlines show any similar trading
patterns
to those experienced by UAL and American. The put option purchases on both
airlines were 600% above normal. This at a time when Reuters (September 10)
issues a business report stating, “Airline stocks may be poised to take
off.”

30. September 6-10, 2001 – Highly abnormal levels of put options are
purchased
in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25% of
American
Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the
September 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above; FTW, Vol. IV, No.7, October 18,
2001, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/oct152001.html. ]

31. It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and many other
intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly
advanced
programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert
national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was
reported, as recently as June, 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden’s possession
and,
as a result of recent stories by FOX, both the FBI and the Justice
Department
have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least this
summer. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of
imminent
attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; FOX News, October
16,
2001; FTW, October 26, 2001, – http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/magic_carpet.html; FTW, Vol. IV, No.6, Sept. 18, 2001 –
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/sept1801.html; FTW, Vol. 3, No 7, 9/30/00 –
www.fromthewilderness.com/
free/pandora/052401_promis.html.

32. September 11, 2001 – Gen Mahmud of the ISI (see above), friend of
Mohammed
Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban. He is meeting with
the
Chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Porter Goss (R),
FL
and Bob Graham (D), Fl [Sources: MS-NBC, Oct. 7, The New York Times, Feb.
17,
2002.]

33. September 11, 2001 – Employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the
world’s
largest instant messaging companies, with offices in New York, receive
threat
warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC less than two hours before the
first
plane hits the WTC. Law enforcement authorities have gone silent about any
investigation of this. The Odigo Research and Development offices in Israel
are
located in the city of Herzliyya, a ritzy suburb of Tel Aviv which is the
same
location as the Institute for Counter Terrorism which breaks early details
of
insider trading on 9-11. [Source: CNN’s Daniel Sieberg, 9/28/01; Newsbytes,
Brian McWilliams, 9/27/01; Ha’aretz, 9/26/01.].

34. September 11, 2001, For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it
widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been
simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President
of
the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are
scrambled
to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National
Command
Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it
was
known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred – an event that has
never
happened in history. [Sources: CNN, ABC, MS-NBC, The Los Angeles Times, The
New
York Times.]

35. September 13, 2001 – China is admitted to the World Trade Organization
quickly, after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts. [Source: The New York
Times,
Sept. 30, 2001.]

36. September 14, 2001 – Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from Mike
Vreeland in Toronto and see that is describes attacks against the WTC and
Pentagon. The U.S. Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged as
a
seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in
intelligence. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior
Court
records]

37. September 15, 2001 – The New York Times reports that Mayo Shattuck III
has
resigned, effective immediately, as head of the Alex (A.B) Brown unit of
Deutschebank.

38. September 29, 2001 – The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5
million
in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines are unclaimed. This
is
likely the result of the suspension in trading on the NYSE after the attacks
which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when
the
owners showed up to redeem their put options.

39. October 10, 2001 – The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports
that
U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil
minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across
Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and gas
to
China, is now back on the table “in view of recent geopolitical
developments.”

40. October 11, 2001 – The Ashcroft Justice Department takes over all
terrorist
prosecutions from the U.S. Attorneys office in New York which has had a
highly
successful track record in prosecuting terrorist cases connected to Osama
bin
Laden. [Source: The New York Times, Oct. 11, 2002.]

41. Mid October, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having
suffered
a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although
still
weak, and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been averted
by
a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies for
“affected” industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.

42. November 21, 2001 – The British paper The Independent runs a story
headlined, “Opium Farmers Rejoice at the Defeat of the Taliban.” The story
reports that massive opium planting is underway all over the country.

43. November 25, 2001 – The Observer runs a story headlined “Victorious
Warlords Set To Open the Opium Floodgates.” It states that farmers are being
encouraged by warlords allied with the victorious Americans are “being
encouraged to plant “as much opium as possible.”

44. December 4, 2001 – Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi is
recruited by the US government to help establish control in Afghanistan by
unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one of
the
CIA’s leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from prison
in
order to do this. [Source: The Asia Times Online, 12/4/01].

45. December 25, 2001 – Newly appointed afghani Prime Minister Hamid Karzai
is
revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal. [Source: Le Monde.]

46. January 3, 2002 – President Bush appoints Zalamy Khalilzad as a special
envoy to Afghanistan. Khalilzad, a former employee of Unocal, also wrote
op-eds
in the Washington Post in 1997 supporting the Taliban regime. [Source:
Pravda,
1/9/02]

47. January 4, 2002 – Florida drug trafficking explodes after 9-11. In a
surge
of trafficking reminiscent of the 1980s the diversion of resources away from
drug enforcement has opened the floodgates for a new surge of cocaine and
heroin from South America. [The Christian Science Monitor, January 4, 2002.

48. January 10, 2002 – In a call from a speaker phone in open court,
attorneys
for “Mike” Vreeland call the Pentagon’s switchboard operator who confirms
that
Vreeland is indeed a Naval Lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office
number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon.
[Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; court records Toronto Superior Court.]

49. January 10, 2002 – Attorney General John Ashcroft recuses himself from
the
Enron investigation because Enron had been a major campaign donor in his
2000
Senate race. He fails to recuse himself from involvement in two sitting
Federal
grand juries investigating bribery and corruption charges against ExxonMobil
and BP-Amoco who have massive oil interests in Central Asia. Both were major
Ashcroft donors in 2000. [Source: CNN, Jan. 10, 2002 – FTW original
investigation, The Elephant in the Living Room, Part I, Apr 4, 2002.]

50. February 9, 2002 – Pakistani leader General Musharraf and Afghan leader
Hamid Karzai announce their agreement to “cooperate in all spheres of
activity”
including the proposed Central Asian pipeline. Pakistan will give $10
million
to Afghanistan to help pay Afghani government workers. [Source: The Irish
Times, 2/9/02]

51. Feb 18, 2002 – The Financial Times reports that the estimated opium
harvest
in Afghanistan in the late Spring of 2002 will reach a world record 4500
metric
tons.

Now, let’s go back to the October 31 story by Le Figaro – the one that has
Osama bin Laden meeting with a CIA officer in Dubai this June.

The story says that, “Throughout his stay in the hospital, Osama Bin Laden
received visits from many family members [There goes the story that he’s a
black sheep!] and Saudi Arabian Emirate personalities of status. During this
time the local representative of the CIA was seen by many people taking the
elevator and going to bin Laden’s room.

“Several days later the CIA officer bragged to his friends about having
visited
the Saudi millionaire. From authoritative sources, this CIA agent visited
CIA
headquarters on July 15th, the day after bin Laden’s departure for Quetta÷

“According to various Arab diplomatic sources and French intelligence
itself,
precise information was communicated to the CIA concerning terrorist attacks
aimed at American interests in the world, including its own territory.”÷

“Extremely bothered, they [American intelligence officers in a meeting with
French intelligence officers] requested from their French peers exact
details
about the Algerian activists [connected to bin Laden through Dubai banking
institutions], without explaining the exact nature of their inquiry. When
asked
the question, “What do you fear in the coming days?’ the Americans responded
with incomprehensible silence.”÷

“On further investigation, the FBI discovered certain plans that had been
put
together between the CIA and its “Islamic friends” over the years. The
meeting
in Dubai is, so it would seem, consistent with ‘a certain American policy.'”

Even though Le Figaro reported that it had confirmed with hospital staff
that
bin Laden had been there as reported, stories printed on November 1
contained
quotes from hospital staff that these reports were untrue. On November 1, as
reported by the Ananova press agency, the CIA flatly denied that any meeting
between any CIA personnel and Osama bin Laden at any time.

Who do you believe?

WATCH THIS PAGE FOR CONTINUING ADDITIONS TO THIS TIMELINE
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 20, 2002 at 1:07:24 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

D’you reckin that’s why the Rockefellor Laws are so harsh? I mean, why would
they wanna make it easier to get illegal drugs when the ‘legal’ ones are
making them so much money? Or have I got this all confused?!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: tgoodson7 [mailto:tgoodson7@cox.net]
Sent: 20 May 2002 03:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Fw: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

As I understand it the Rockafellers bought the exclusive license to
manufacture and distribute Methadone from Germany after
WW II.  If you will remember, Hitler had his medical geniuses invent
Methadone as a substitute for opiates because Germany
was cut off from their supplies of Opiates for wounded battle field
soldiers.

So, with a Billion Dollar campaign fund you would find an awfull lot of
opposition to any kind of competition for Methadone!!
This monopoly on Methadone probably financially sustains the Rockafeller
University in New York.  At least I understand
the license is in trust to the University or some kind financial arrangement
for the benefit for the University.  I am sure you guys
remember that Methadone as originally compounded was called “Adolfine” for
Adolf Hitler; however, can you imagine anyone
in this US adapting to anything named after its worste enemy so the name
Methadone was probably born from such
sentiments.  Just a suggestion from an ‘ol Man, a surviving relic of WW II.

Tommy Goodson    No, I was not in the European Theater of war; I was in the
South Pacific!!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

I don’t know that it’s all money. For sure methadone is a big industry,
though as you mention it’s the peripherals, not the drug itself, that is
where the spending goes. You’ve also got to remember that, at a deep
level,
iboga and opiates are fundamentally opposite concepts. The action of an
opiate is always to diminish awareness, to cause pain to recede and with
it
all the feelings and ideas that are bringing pain up. The action of iboga
is
the opposite, the drug always seeks to raise awareness to bring painful,
repressed ideas and feelings to light.

I have iboga-esque images come to me where I can see the two – iboga and
opiate – both operating at opposite ends of the daily, diurnal clock, the
iboga pushing the material held in the darkness to light at dawn and the
opiate shovelling it all back again at dusk.

The methadone programme can be justified by many means, it can be a great
stepping stone to drug freedom. It can validly be portrayed in a totally
useful social light. But, at the end of the day, it is still an opiate,
still a drug whose fundamental action is the complete opposite of
ibogaine.
And its advocates will therefore be people whose fundamental orientation,
beneath the shared veneer of opposing heroin addiction, is quite
antithetic
to ibogaine.

Personally, I really wouldn’t bother getting into long debates or
arguments
with the methadone pushing fraternity. I doubt many will ever root for
ibogaine in a meaningful way because they will have a core orientation
antithetical to the whole iboga concept, (and this same orientation will
mean they will be opposed to appreciating this). At the end of the day, I
figure you gotta expect hassle from anyone who is, for whatever reason,
pushing an opiate. Maybe I’m being too harsh.

Nick

PS – Great to hear how Hattie’s vomitting experience worked out. A great
example for us all.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

Hi Carrie,

I’ll tell you why Methadone people don’t like (to put it mildly)
Ibogaine:

In my country there are a bit over 2 million people (less than a modest
city in your country, I guess), and we spend over 10 million US$ per
year
for Methadone program. This is not for Methadone alone, you have to add
salary for doctors and nurses and cleaners, and rents, and all other
expenses connected to this buissiness. How much money would that be in
Germany or USA?

Then there’s that Methadone is proven to do whatever it does, and
doctors
don’t have any trouble at work; they know exactly how things are
running.
With Ibogaine (being “dirty drug”) you never know how a “patient” will
respond.

And Ibogaine conferences are not so often and in so many beautiful
places
of the world as Methadone conferences are!

Don’t forget that Ibogaine isn’t patented (at least not by
pharmaceutical
companies), so they can’t make any money on it. And, Methadone must be
taken daily, and Ibogaine once or twice in a lifetime… there’s
absolutly
no profit from it!

The bottom line is MONEY!! Pharmaceutical companies must make profits to
keep their owners happy and wealthy. And they (pharmaceutical companies)
run medicine as they wish; they are the ones with money. They push
expensive medicaments to increase their profits. MDs don’t have enough
time
to learn about new medicaments they could use anymore, so salespersons
of
pharmaceutical companies educate them, and they even give them BIG free
samples which can be tried on patients; and these companies invite MDs
to
“study travels” (or whatever you call this in english – In my language
this
could be called a brib.) on their expenses, and MDs supposedly study
there
;-))

There’s another thing you shouldn’t forget: there are very few people
that
have bolls to introduce something new into medicine, especially if they
are
already part of the established system. And MDs don’t listen to non-MDs,
because we don’t belong among them!! Here you shouldn’t forget that ONLY
MDs have licenses to heal people, if anyone else does it it’s against
the
law!!!

I hope that you have enough to think about (for the beginning). You can
find plenty of support data (for what I wrote) all over Internet, and
with
a bit of sane thinking you can draw conclusions of your own.

Hope this answered your question,

Marko

At 11:22 18.5.2002, you wrote:
Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:52:30 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

btw, just for the future, and in a very friendly reminder, my name is
Preston Peet, (Peet, not Pete being my last name. I can stand right in front
of someone spell my last name slowly clearly, enunciating each letter one at
a time, and still 19 out of 20 will read it back to me as P-E-T-E. Sigh.
Some people just don’t listen, eh?)so please feel free to call me Preston.
For a short interesting story, I moved in with a redneck, hunting type
Florida family at 3 years of age, who were supposedly adopting me. The first
night the mother of the family sat me down in their living room, and recited
a long list of names, from which I picked Preston. They thought Tracy, my
given at birth name by god knows who, just wasn’t manly enough. I like
Preston, (Preston Peet seems a god writing name, easy to recognize) and have
always felt that as a 3 year old being offered a choice of names by
true-blood rednecks in South Florida, I coulda done much, MUCH worse.
(Picked my middle name too at 6, which I was finally really adopted by
another family, the one that eventually raised me until booting me out at
17.) The rednecks decided to tell me the night before I was leaving that
they could no longer keep me, although they’d already adopted me, and so I
had one of those really young, traumatic experiences whereby the social
worker arrived the next day, had to chase me around the house, eventually
prying my desperate grip to the toilet paper roll in the bathroom and carry
me kicking and screaming to where she could throw me in the car.
Hope you all don’t mind the rambling self history. I’m trying to get
warmed up to get to my real working, writing a review today that I’ve not
yet started world one of.
Peace,
and thanks for all your patients with my long, somewhat off-topic posting.
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jellking” <jellking@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

P Pete writes, “It is not enough
for me to post simple drugwar news, but I feel it also very necessary to
point out the many uses, of all drugs, that are not necessarily drugwar
related, but rather demonstrate the many religious and other reasons for
drug use in all cultures.
Any ideas, or posts, please don’t hesitate to send ’em my way.
I think I’m beginning to repeat myself.”

Good work, Pete!  The fact that we even say “drug” (as in drug down? drug
around, the past tense of drag) kind of disses the “religious” use in all
cultures.  I mean there, the word is “sacrament” (i.e; sacredness) or
something like, yes?  In Roman Catholocism, the faithful are taught that the
priest, via the agency of God, actually changes the little wafers into the
body of Christ.  They insist it is true, not a a metaphor.  Of course, it IS
true, as “borrowed” from the Eleusian mysteries, that such things can
happen, but what went on in the church of my childhood definitely did not
include any such transformation.  they left out more than the yeast, so to
speak.  But the fact that “bread” CAN include (even without yeast) the
essence of God, that is real.  As I’m sure all on this list pretty much
attest to all the time.  I mean we don’t have to say “God,” it’s just easier
than all those other ways of trying to eff the ineff.

I know none of the above is “news,” much less the “good news” that the
xtians sometimes rant on about,  but the fact is, it IS good news that the
plants and we and something like a god can still commune, cocreate, and BE
together, don’t ya think? Here’s an old-fashioned anthroplogical insight –
that the ritual of any group basically constitutes and reconstitutes the
prevailing power structure of that group. In a group whose ritual says,
“fly,” etc…..The Bwiti seem to say “meet your tribe past and and future.”
I found it weird that me, a non-Bwit, met them and their ancestors as well.
Still, for me, I have to assimilate the convergence with the ineff into a
process so I can eff!  Yabadabbadoo, Jane

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:54:06 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, all, I don’t have to much time for this, but just wanted to have it
noted that one can be both for Ibogaine, and for Ibogaine

As I said in an earlier e-mail, the fact is that people are different, at
different stages of their using-careers, and have a varied plethora of
desires/needs around their recovery or not.

My guess is, you may be a little more curious, and or imaginative, and/or
desperate and/ir cosmically/spiritually-oriented, and/or brave to take a
substance like Ibogaine which the ‘system’ hasn’t embraced yet..

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:sandberg@onetel.net.uk]
Sent: 19 May 2002 18:26
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

I don’t know that it’s all money. For sure methadone is a big industry,
though as you mention it’s the peripherals, not the drug itself, that is
where the spending goes. You’ve also got to remember that, at a deep level,
iboga and opiates are fundamentally opposite concepts. The action of an
opiate is always to diminish awareness, to cause pain to recede and with it
all the feelings and ideas that are bringing pain up. The action of iboga is
the opposite, the drug always seeks to raise awareness to bring painful,
repressed ideas and feelings to light.

I have iboga-esque images come to me where I can see the two – iboga and
opiate – both operating at opposite ends of the daily, diurnal clock, the
iboga pushing the material held in the darkness to light at dawn and the
opiate shovelling it all back again at dusk.

The methadone programme can be justified by many means, it can be a great
stepping stone to drug freedom. It can validly be portrayed in a totally
useful social light. But, at the end of the day, it is still an opiate,
still a drug whose fundamental action is the complete opposite of ibogaine.
And its advocates will therefore be people whose fundamental orientation,
beneath the shared veneer of opposing heroin addiction, is quite antithetic
to ibogaine.

Personally, I really wouldn’t bother getting into long debates or arguments
with the methadone pushing fraternity. I doubt many will ever root for
ibogaine in a meaningful way because they will have a core orientation
antithetical to the whole iboga concept, (and this same orientation will
mean they will be opposed to appreciating this). At the end of the day, I
figure you gotta expect hassle from anyone who is, for whatever reason,
pushing an opiate. Maybe I’m being too harsh.

Nick

PS – Great to hear how Hattie’s vomitting experience worked out. A great
example for us all.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

Hi Carrie,

I’ll tell you why Methadone people don’t like (to put it mildly) Ibogaine:

In my country there are a bit over 2 million people (less than a modest
city in your country, I guess), and we spend over 10 million US$ per year
for Methadone program. This is not for Methadone alone, you have to add
salary for doctors and nurses and cleaners, and rents, and all other
expenses connected to this buissiness. How much money would that be in
Germany or USA?

Then there’s that Methadone is proven to do whatever it does, and doctors
don’t have any trouble at work; they know exactly how things are running.
With Ibogaine (being “dirty drug”) you never know how a “patient” will
respond.

And Ibogaine conferences are not so often and in so many beautiful places
of the world as Methadone conferences are!

Don’t forget that Ibogaine isn’t patented (at least not by pharmaceutical
companies), so they can’t make any money on it. And, Methadone must be
taken daily, and Ibogaine once or twice in a lifetime… there’s absolutly
no profit from it!

The bottom line is MONEY!! Pharmaceutical companies must make profits to
keep their owners happy and wealthy. And they (pharmaceutical companies)
run medicine as they wish; they are the ones with money. They push
expensive medicaments to increase their profits. MDs don’t have enough
time
to learn about new medicaments they could use anymore, so salespersons of
pharmaceutical companies educate them, and they even give them BIG free
samples which can be tried on patients; and these companies invite MDs to
“study travels” (or whatever you call this in english – In my language
this
could be called a brib.) on their expenses, and MDs supposedly study there
;-))

There’s another thing you shouldn’t forget: there are very few people that
have bolls to introduce something new into medicine, especially if they
are
already part of the established system. And MDs don’t listen to non-MDs,
because we don’t belong among them!! Here you shouldn’t forget that ONLY
MDs have licenses to heal people, if anyone else does it it’s against the
law!!!

I hope that you have enough to think about (for the beginning). You can
find plenty of support data (for what I wrote) all over Internet, and with
a bit of sane thinking you can draw conclusions of your own.

Hope this answered your question,

Marko

At 11:22 18.5.2002, you wrote:
Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:39:20 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oh Lucy!  You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do”

A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH – IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T
INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?<

Sorry all,
Whlie this has nothing at all that I can see with ibogaine, for a
contantly updated list of links, (including a few by my friend Mike Ruppert,
cited above) photos taken from my LES rooftop on my birthday Sept 11, lead
in by my own personal view of this latest round of revelations and spin,
PLEASE check out my page:

http://www.drugwar.com/pprewtcwarnings.shtm
Pre-September 11 Reports of Terrorist Threats, Including References to World
Trade Center-
Why Did it Take 8 Months?

text and photos by Preston Peet- special to Drugwar.com

May 17, 2002

Waking September 11, 2001, felt like one of those nightmares where I think
I’ve woken up until the monster leaps out to grab me. It took weeks for me
to grasp that the two 110 story tall towers I used to be able to see through
my window as I typed were really gone, taking nearly 3,000 lives with them.
The smoke, the stink, and the shock lingered, and the crews have still
90,000 tons of debris to remove from the site. Since last night, May 15,
2002, I’ve been feeling as though the towers have fallen again.

The Bush administration knew of terrorist threats before September 11, had
been warned by both the FBI and the CIA that some sort of attack or attacks
were imminent, that there were men connected to Osama bin Laden training at
US flight schools, that an FBI agent in Minneapolis thought Moussaoui, the
so-called 2oth hijacker was capable of flying a plane into the World Trade
Center, and yet have spent the last 8 months denying anything more than the
vaguest of warnings.

snip-
AS noted, there are about 60 links and a whole series of photos of the
burning then falling second tower. When are we the people converging on the
DC Mall to demand an enitrely new government? It coulnd’ be too soon, and I
find it altogether utterl depressing that there doesn’t seem to be more
outcry, or at none th emainstream news channels are giving attention to. I’m
one pissd off individual about these latest revelations, though as I note in
my essay, I can’t believe I’m even a little bit surprised.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Gamma” <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 2:06 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and
afghanistan: the master plan}

Reply-to: vox@mindvox.com
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 22:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: SNF <the_panty_sniffer@yahoo.com>
To: vox@mindvox.com
Subject: [vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and afghanistan:
the
master plan}

“Oh Lucy!  You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do”

A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH – IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T
INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away

by

Michael C. Ruppert

[© COPYRIGHT 2001, All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The
Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be copied and distributed
for
non-profit purposes only.]
[Expanded and Revised April 18, 2002]

FTW, November 2, 2001 – 1200 PST — On October 31, the French daily Le
Figaro
dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a
chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA
official
– presumably the Chief of Station. The meeting, held in bin Laden’s
private
suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was
a
wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and this year’s
attack
on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a
2000
intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving
office in
January. Yet on July 14th he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet
and
there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.

In 1985 Oliver North – the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who
doesn’t
appear to have a hand in the current war – sent the Navy and commandos
after
terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography
“Under
Fire,” while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, “I used to
wonder:
how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?” One could
look at
the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before
September 11 and ask the same question.

It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events
both
before and after the September 11th suicide attacks, which have been
blamed on
bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests
that
there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their
execution. It also makes clear that the events which have taken place
since
September 11th are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the
attacks.

One wonders how these events could have been ignored by the major media or
treated as isolated incidents. Failing that, how could skilled news
agencies
avoid being outraged, or at least even just a little suspicious?

1. 1991-1997 – Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco,
Unocal,
BP Amoco, Shell and Enron directly invest billions in cash bribing heads
of
state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in
these
regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in
Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to
Russia
to use Russian pipelines the major oil companies have no way to recoup
their
investments. [“The Price of Oil,” by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July
9,
2001 – The Asia Times, “The Roving Eye Part I Jan. 26, 2002.]

2. December 4, 1997 – Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to
the
Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline.
Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly
because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

3. February 12, 1998 – Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca – later to
become
a Special Ambassador to Afghanistan – testifies before the House that
until a
single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan the
trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built.
[Source:
Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

4. 1998 – The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that
Saudi
Arabia was harboring an al-Q’aeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more
detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in
August
2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times 1/12/01; See No Evil by a book
by
Robert Baer (release date Feb. 2002).

5. April, 1999 – Enron with a $3 billion investment to build an electrical
generating plant at Dabhol India loses access to plentiful LNG supplies
from
Qatar to fuel the plant. Its only remaining option to make the investment
profitable is a trans-Afghani gas pipeline to be built by Unocal from
Turkmenistan that would terminate near the Indian border at the city of
Multan.
[Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002.]

6. 1998 and 2000 – Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi
Arabia on
behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense
contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal
family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27,
2001.
See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 – “The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,” –
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/carlyle.html. ]

7. January, 2001 – The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence
agencies to “back off” investigations involving the bin Laden family,
including
two of Osama bin Laden’s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in
Falls
Church, VA – right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders
dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden
family.
[Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast – Nov 7, 2001].

8. Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while
covering a
trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers – reports that the National
Security
Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this
indicates
that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact
that
the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

9. May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to
the
Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving
since the
destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban
regime.
[Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].

10. May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career
covert
operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour
while CIA
Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with
Pakistani
leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani
intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil
decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that
while in
Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,”
also
met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the
ISI.
[Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]

11. June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel
that
Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to
use as
weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.”
[Source:
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]

12. July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S.
Ambassador
to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for
South
Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South
Asia),
meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell
them
that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October.
A
French book released in November, “Bin Laden – La Verite´ Interdite,”
discloses
that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers
confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban.
[Source: The
Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press
Service, Nov 16, 2001]

[Doug Note:  This book also has an interview with the FBI Anti-terrorist
head
who resigned in protest of the Bush administration telling the FBI to hold
off
their of pursuit of obvious terrorist operations in the US if they were
Saudi
or Afghan related.]

13. Summer, 2001 – The National Security Council convenes a Dabhol working
group as revealed in a series of government e-mails obtained by The
Washington
Post and the New York Daily News. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28,
2002]

14. Summer 2001 – According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain’s The Guardian,
correspondent David Leigh reported that, “U.S. department of defense
official,
Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian’s Felicity
Lawrence established that US Rangers were also training special troops in
Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special
troops
were training in Alaska and Montana.”

15. Summer 2001 (est.) – Pakistani ISI Chief General Ahmad (see above)
orders
an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, who was according to
the
FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned
after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI.
[Source:
The Times of India, October 11, 2001.]

16. Summer 2001 – An Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an
imminent attack on the World Trade Center in the week of September 9th.
German
police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not
reveal any further information. [Source: German news agency “online.de”,
September 14, 2001, translation retrieved from online.ie in Ireland.]

17. June 26, 2001 – The magazine indiareacts.com states that “India and
Iran
will ‘facilitate’ US and Russian plans for ‘limited military action’
against
the Taliban.” The story indicates that the fighting will be done by US and
Russian troops with the help of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. [Source:
indiareacts.com, June 26, 2001.]

18. August 2001 – The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden
in
Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member
of bin
Laden’s network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons.
At
the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information
on
Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, September 13.]

19. August 11 or 12 – US Navy Lt. Delmart “Mike” Vreeland, jailed in
Toronto on
U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval
intelligence,
writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope
which
he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23,
2001;
Toronto Superior Court Records]

20. Summer 2001 – Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist
pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions. This is
reported
in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired
CIA
officer.

21. July 4-14, 2001 – Osama bin Laden receives treatments for kidney
disease at
the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official who returns
to CIA
headquarters on July 15th. [Source: Le Figaro, October 31st, 2001.]

22. August 2001 – Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian
intelligence
to warn the U.S. government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent
attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MS-NBC interview
with
Putin, September 15.]

23. August/September, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly
900
points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash
is
imminent.

24. Sept. 3-10, 2001 – MS-NBC reports on September 16 that a caller to a
Cayman
Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the
U.S.
by bin Laden in the week prior to 9/11.

25. September 1-10, 2001 – In an exercise, Operation “Swift Sword” planned
for
four years, 23, 000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the
9/11
attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment the massive operation was
implemented
as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on
station
in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time,
some
17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for
Operation
“Bright Star.” All of these forces are in place before the first plane
hits the
World Trade Center. [Sources: The Guardian, CNN, FOX, The Observer,
International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]

26. September 7, 2001 – Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year
emergency
executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National
Guard
to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event
of
large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of
Florida web site listing of Governor’s Executive Orders.]

27. September 6-7, 2001 – 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock
will
go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396
call
options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and
abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the UAL puts are
purchased
through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current
Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. [Source: The
Herzliyya
International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism,
http://www.ict.org.il/,
September 21; The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal.]

28. September 10, 2001 – 4,516 put options are purchased on American
Airlines
as compared to 748 call options. [Source: ICT – above]

29. September 6-11, 2001 – No other airlines show any similar trading
patterns
to those experienced by UAL and American. The put option purchases on both
airlines were 600% above normal. This at a time when Reuters (September
10)
issues a business report stating, “Airline stocks may be poised to take
off.”

30. September 6-10, 2001 – Highly abnormal levels of put options are
purchased
in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25% of
American
Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by
the
September 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above; FTW, Vol. IV, No.7, October 18,
2001, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/oct152001.html. ]

31. It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and many other
intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly
advanced
programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert
national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was
reported, as recently as June, 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden’s possession
and,
as a result of recent stories by FOX, both the FBI and the Justice
Department
have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least
this
summer. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of
imminent
attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; FOX News, October
16,
2001; FTW, October 26, 2001, – http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/magic_carpet.html; FTW, Vol. IV, No.6, Sept. 18, 2001 –
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/sept1801.html; FTW, Vol. 3, No 7, 9/30/00 –
www.fromthewilderness.com/
free/pandora/052401_promis.html.

32. September 11, 2001 – Gen Mahmud of the ISI (see above), friend of
Mohammed
Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban. He is meeting with
the
Chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Porter Goss (R),
FL
and Bob Graham (D), Fl [Sources: MS-NBC, Oct. 7, The New York Times, Feb.
17,
2002.]

33. September 11, 2001 – Employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the
world’s
largest instant messaging companies, with offices in New York, receive
threat
warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC less than two hours before the
first
plane hits the WTC. Law enforcement authorities have gone silent about any
investigation of this. The Odigo Research and Development offices in
Israel are
located in the city of Herzliyya, a ritzy suburb of Tel Aviv which is the
same
location as the Institute for Counter Terrorism which breaks early details
of
insider trading on 9-11. [Source: CNN’s Daniel Sieberg, 9/28/01;
Newsbytes,
Brian McWilliams, 9/27/01; Ha’aretz, 9/26/01.].

34. September 11, 2001, For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with
it
widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been
simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the
President of
the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are
scrambled
to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National
Command
Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it
was
known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred – an event that has
never
happened in history. [Sources: CNN, ABC, MS-NBC, The Los Angeles Times,
The New
York Times.]

35. September 13, 2001 – China is admitted to the World Trade Organization
quickly, after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts. [Source: The New York
Times,
Sept. 30, 2001.]

36. September 14, 2001 – Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from
Mike
Vreeland in Toronto and see that is describes attacks against the WTC and
Pentagon. The U.S. Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged
as a
seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in
intelligence. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior
Court
records]

37. September 15, 2001 – The New York Times reports that Mayo Shattuck III
has
resigned, effective immediately, as head of the Alex (A.B) Brown unit of
Deutschebank.

38. September 29, 2001 – The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5
million
in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines are unclaimed.
This is
likely the result of the suspension in trading on the NYSE after the
attacks
which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when
the
owners showed up to redeem their put options.

39. October 10, 2001 – The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports
that
U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil
minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across
Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and
gas to
China, is now back on the table “in view of recent geopolitical
developments.”

40. October 11, 2001 – The Ashcroft Justice Department takes over all
terrorist
prosecutions from the U.S. Attorneys office in New York which has had a
highly
successful track record in prosecuting terrorist cases connected to Osama
bin
Laden. [Source: The New York Times, Oct. 11, 2002.]

41. Mid October, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having
suffered
a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although
still
weak, and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been
averted by
a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies
for
“affected” industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.

42. November 21, 2001 – The British paper The Independent runs a story
headlined, “Opium Farmers Rejoice at the Defeat of the Taliban.” The story
reports that massive opium planting is underway all over the country.

43. November 25, 2001 – The Observer runs a story headlined “Victorious
Warlords Set To Open the Opium Floodgates.” It states that farmers are
being
encouraged by warlords allied with the victorious Americans are “being
encouraged to plant “as much opium as possible.”

44. December 4, 2001 – Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi
is
recruited by the US government to help establish control in Afghanistan by
unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one
of the
CIA’s leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from
prison in
order to do this. [Source: The Asia Times Online, 12/4/01].

45. December 25, 2001 – Newly appointed afghani Prime Minister Hamid
Karzai is
revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal. [Source: Le Monde.]

46. January 3, 2002 – President Bush appoints Zalamy Khalilzad as a
special
envoy to Afghanistan. Khalilzad, a former employee of Unocal, also wrote
op-eds
in the Washington Post in 1997 supporting the Taliban regime. [Source:
Pravda,
1/9/02]

47. January 4, 2002 – Florida drug trafficking explodes after 9-11. In a
surge
of trafficking reminiscent of the 1980s the diversion of resources away
from
drug enforcement has opened the floodgates for a new surge of cocaine and
heroin from South America. [The Christian Science Monitor, January 4,
2002.

48. January 10, 2002 – In a call from a speaker phone in open court,
attorneys
for “Mike” Vreeland call the Pentagon’s switchboard operator who confirms
that
Vreeland is indeed a Naval Lieutenant on active duty. She provides an
office
number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon.
[Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; court records Toronto Superior Court.]

49. January 10, 2002 – Attorney General John Ashcroft recuses himself from
the
Enron investigation because Enron had been a major campaign donor in his
2000
Senate race. He fails to recuse himself from involvement in two sitting
Federal
grand juries investigating bribery and corruption charges against
ExxonMobil
and BP-Amoco who have massive oil interests in Central Asia. Both were
major
Ashcroft donors in 2000. [Source: CNN, Jan. 10, 2002 – FTW original
investigation, The Elephant in the Living Room, Part I, Apr 4, 2002.]

50. February 9, 2002 – Pakistani leader General Musharraf and Afghan
leader
Hamid Karzai announce their agreement to “cooperate in all spheres of
activity”
including the proposed Central Asian pipeline. Pakistan will give $10
million
to Afghanistan to help pay Afghani government workers. [Source: The Irish
Times, 2/9/02]

51. Feb 18, 2002 – The Financial Times reports that the estimated opium
harvest
in Afghanistan in the late Spring of 2002 will reach a world record 4500
metric
tons.

Now, let’s go back to the October 31 story by Le Figaro – the one that has
Osama bin Laden meeting with a CIA officer in Dubai this June.

The story says that, “Throughout his stay in the hospital, Osama Bin Laden
received visits from many family members [There goes the story that he’s a
black sheep!] and Saudi Arabian Emirate personalities of status. During
this
time the local representative of the CIA was seen by many people taking
the
elevator and going to bin Laden’s room.

“Several days later the CIA officer bragged to his friends about having
visited
the Saudi millionaire. From authoritative sources, this CIA agent visited
CIA
headquarters on July 15th, the day after bin Laden’s departure for Quetta÷

“According to various Arab diplomatic sources and French intelligence
itself,
precise information was communicated to the CIA concerning terrorist
attacks
aimed at American interests in the world, including its own territory.”÷

“Extremely bothered, they [American intelligence officers in a meeting wit
h
French intelligence officers] requested from their French peers exact
details
about the Algerian activists [connected to bin Laden through Dubai banking
institutions], without explaining the exact nature of their inquiry. When
asked
the question, “What do you fear in the coming days?’ the Americans
responded
with incomprehensible silence.”÷

“On further investigation, the FBI discovered certain plans that had been
put
together between the CIA and its “Islamic friends” over the years. The
meeting
in Dubai is, so it would seem, consistent with ‘a certain American
policy.'”

Even though Le Figaro reported that it had confirmed with hospital staff
that
bin Laden had been there as reported, stories printed on November 1
contained
quotes from hospital staff that these reports were untrue. On November 1,
as
reported by the Ananova press agency, the CIA flatly denied that any
meeting
between any CIA personnel and Osama bin Laden at any time.

Who do you believe?

WATCH THIS PAGE FOR CONTINUING ADDITIONS TO THIS TIMELINE
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html

__________________________________________________
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:41:04 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carrie

ALL causes eventually get hijacked by monied interests: it’s just the way
the world is. Very painful but also very real (Unless you’re rich that is)
and pumping all the money is and thus have all the power

Come on gal: surely this is all obvious no?

Yes, even the Harm Reduction movement is becoming a bit of a business: for
crying out loud, it has one of the richest men in the world behind it..

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 19 May 2002 10:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine

I read your reply to Carrie and I read Marko’s about
methadone being a big business. I don’t disagree
either way, what I wouldn’t understand either is what
it has to do with harm reduction. Or does it have more
to do with who is sponsering whatever the event is?

I didn’t know harm reduction was selling anything, why
care who does methadone or whether ibogaine will make
anyone a lot of money.

Carla B

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
We would love to get some
seeds or clones of Iboga as well. Do you have
a good supplier? Would
you mind putting us in touch with them? We
would love to make
Ibogaine available to people here in
Vancouver. There seems to be a
real interest!

It would be difficult to grow iboga in Vancouver.

Comments should be addressed to “Boje Renee”
<evesmagicgarden@hotmail.com>

a very interesting person who is a refugee from the
U.S. married to
Chris Bennet, who wrote an interesting book
debunking the Bible with
a lot of stuff on entheogens.  I don’t know that
they understand that
you can’t just sell iboga, that you have to supply a
guide or
experienced caretaker with every dose.

But this is a positive development, since I
personally have received
calls from addicts in Vancouver and the N.W. U.S.
desparate for
treatment, and heretofore have not been able to get
anyone interested
in actually doing a clinic there.

Well…there was a little interest on the part of
one person
connected to Hilary Black’s Compassion Club, but she
wanted to have
it done by another group, a Wellness Centre, that I
could never
actually get thru to.

Maybe just having some people there on the group
will  make a difference.

Dana/cnw

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] Recall: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:40:27 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt would like to recall the message, “[ibogaine] Fwd:
Ibogaine”.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:40:13 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carrie

ALL causes eventually get hijacked by monied interests: it’s just the way
the world is. Very painful but also very real (Unless you’re rich that is)
and pumping all the money is and thus have all the power

Come on gal: surely this is all obvious no?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 19 May 2002 10:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine

I read your reply to Carrie and I read Marko’s about
methadone being a big business. I don’t disagree
either way, what I wouldn’t understand either is what
it has to do with harm reduction. Or does it have more
to do with who is sponsering whatever the event is?

I didn’t know harm reduction was selling anything, why
care who does methadone or whether ibogaine will make
anyone a lot of money.

Carla B

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
We would love to get some
seeds or clones of Iboga as well. Do you have
a good supplier? Would
you mind putting us in touch with them? We
would love to make
Ibogaine available to people here in
Vancouver. There seems to be a
real interest!

It would be difficult to grow iboga in Vancouver.

Comments should be addressed to “Boje Renee”
<evesmagicgarden@hotmail.com>

a very interesting person who is a refugee from the
U.S. married to
Chris Bennet, who wrote an interesting book
debunking the Bible with
a lot of stuff on entheogens.  I don’t know that
they understand that
you can’t just sell iboga, that you have to supply a
guide or
experienced caretaker with every dose.

But this is a positive development, since I
personally have received
calls from addicts in Vancouver and the N.W. U.S.
desparate for
treatment, and heretofore have not been able to get
anyone interested
in actually doing a clinic there.

Well…there was a little interest on the part of
one person
connected to Hilary Black’s Compassion Club, but she
wanted to have
it done by another group, a Wellness Centre, that I
could never
actually get thru to.

Maybe just having some people there on the group
will  make a difference.

Dana/cnw

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:37:34 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Perhaps Fl is the beginning of Armegeddon! Or at least the environmental
bit; Palestin looks like the terretorial bit – right now anyway

sorry; just trying to help PK!

xoxox

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 19 May 2002 05:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: vox@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times

Probably this is not the IDEAL place to ponder this question, but really,
who cares…  There APPEAR to be a variety of people here who are
physically located in Florida — wherever they may spend most of their
time, Inside the Mind…

And…  See, I’m leaving — the office — which is a process that can
sometimes take hours, days, years it seems, as a Variety of Things that
Require my Immediate Attention, rise before me, barring my exit…

So while standing outside smoking a cigarette, I have experienced a
First…  While not as interesting as the semi-visible UFO which hovered
over Miami on Friday — Ha, is anyone really going to believe those
Blatant Lies about some sort of atmospheric phenomena?  Where was I, oh
yes, leaving the office, but see, as I was doing that, or smoking in
between sessions of getting ready to do that…

There’s THIS BUG … crawling up the wall…  It looks like a fat
cockroach, except it has headlights…  Now, I mean, I realize that
whatever it thinks it’s doing is prolly incredibly attractive and
irresistable to bugs of the opposite sex, or Scary to its’ enemies, or a
homing signal contacting Other Bugs with Headlights in other dimensions,
but…  What the fuck IS IT?  I’ve been around the world, I’ve seen some
things, slept in dumpsters, got high with Kings, <wham> woops, the
soundtrack inside my mind is very loud this evening, but still, I
wonder…

Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted Green Glowing
Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in Florida, why have
I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until Just Now…

Thanks in advance for all misinformation,

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:29:22 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “cia-drugs” <cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ON the ibogaine list, Jellking (Jane) wrote >In Roman Catholocism, the
faithful are taught that the priest, via the agency of God, actually changes
the little wafers into the body of Christ.  They insist it is true, not a a
metaphor.  Of course, it IS true, as “borrowed” from the Eleusian mysteries,
that such things can happen, but what went on in the church of my childhood
definitely did not include any such transformation.  they left out more than
the yeast, so to speak.  But the fact that “bread” CAN include (even without
yeast) the essence of God, that is real.  As I’m sure all on this list
pretty much attest to all the time.  I mean we don’t have to say “God,” it’s
just easier than all those other ways of t! rying to eff the ineff.  <

Thanks Jane,

Chris Bennett and Neil MQueen just wrote a book called “Sex, Drug, Violence
and the Bible”. While I’m sure it covers much already reported stuff, it
compiles a fantastic amount of information that is well worth reading.
Here’s my soon to be published short review for HT mag. PLEASE do not pass
this on until it’s published, (Dana;-))

(actually, I just realized that it is published already in slightly edited
form, [thanks god for editors…taking the part of one and editing my own
work can be most difficult I’m finding sometimes], in the June 2002 issue- I
fall behind sometimes on just what I’ve written that’s out. so I guess it’s
ok to pass on, but please supply credit to it being first published in HT,
if anyone does find themselves with an uncontrollable urge to hare this with
others.)

Sex, Drugs, and Violence in the Bible- A Review by Preston Peet (March 1,
2002)
Sex, Drug, and Violence have not only been with humanity for eternity, but
are all heavily documented in the Bible. Authors Chris Bennett and Neil
McQueen have created an exhaustive study of both the Old and New Testaments
in their new book, “Sex, Drugs, Violence, and the Bible”, (Forbidden Fruit
Publishing), laying out in detail not only how entwined in both the Judaic
and Christian faiths these subjects are, but also just how responsible they
are in the formation of the religions themselves.

This book will disturb most devout followers of the Jewish and Christian
faiths as portrayed in the modern Bible. Starting with the Old Testament
tale of the Garden of Eden, asserting that the Tree of Life was
cannabis-sativa, and that the Cain and Abel story “may in fact have been a
contrived piece of propaganda against certain sacrificial rites of Near
Eastern fertility cults,” the authors move merrily along, documenting
various respected religious figures who partake in the smoke of
cannabis-laden incense and other psychedelic substances, fornicate, and
commit slaughter before, during and after communing with their God.

The authors then dissect the New Testament, giving evidence that not only
may Jesus have been married, and/or gay, but that to attain his
Messiah-hood, he was anointed by John the Baptist with an oil that contained
large amounts of cannabis. Most alarmingly to the devout, Jesus and his
disciples may have pulled off an elaborate hoax utilizing drugs to feign
death in the crucifixion and resurrection incident.

The authors rely not only on the tracts the modern Bible contains, but also
on many early Jewish and Christian texts, like those of the Gnostics, that
were excluded as heretical by early Church fathers. Bennett and McQueen
assert that religion, as portrayed in the Bible today, is basically a tool
used in a conspiracy to further isolate humanity “from the natural world –
Eden, which continually finds itself buried beneath cites and asphalt – The
Highway to Hell is indeed paved. The rediscovery of the entheogens [plant
hallucinogens] may offer us a means of reacquaintance with the natural
order, and a way to return back to the garden. For if there is one thing
that can break through the pavement encasing our earthly paradise, it’s a
weed.”

Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Jellking” <jellking@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

P Pete writes, “It is not enough
for me to post simple drugwar news, but I feel it also very necessary to
point out the many uses, of all drugs, that are not necessarily drugwar
related, but rather demonstrate the many religious and other reasons for
drug use in all cultures.
Any ideas, or posts, please don’t hesitate to send ’em my way.
I think I’m beginning to repeat myself.”

Good work, Pete!  The fact that we even say “drug” (as in drug down? drug
around, the past tense of drag) kind of disses the “religious” use in all
cultures.  I mean there, the word is “sacrament” (i.e; sacredness) or
something like, yes?  In Roman Catholocism, the faithful are taught that the
priest, via the agency of God, actually changes the little wafers into the
body of Christ.  They insist it is true, not a a metaphor.  Of course, it IS
true, as “borrowed” from the Eleusian mysteries, that such things can
happen, but what went on in the church of my childhood definitely did not
include any such transformation.  they left out more than the yeast, so to
speak.  But the fact that “bread” CAN include (even without yeast) the
essence of God, that is real.  As I’m sure all on this list pretty much
attest to all the time.  I mean we don’t have to say “God,” it’s just easier
than all those other ways of trying to eff the ineff.

I know none of the above is “news,” much less the “good news” that the
xtians sometimes rant on about,  but the fact is, it IS good news that the
plants and we and something like a god can still commune, cocreate, and BE
together, don’t ya think? Here’s an old-fashioned anthroplogical insight –
that the ritual of any group basically constitutes and reconstitutes the
prevailing power structure of that group. In a group whose ritual says,
“fly,” etc…..The Bwiti seem to say “meet your tribe past and and future.”
I found it weird that me, a non-Bwit, met them and their ancestors as well.
Still, for me, I have to assimilate the convergence with the ineff into a
process so I can eff!  Yabadabbadoo, Jane

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] re: vomiting blood
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:29:22 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As I said Hatts; I can help after these goddam exams!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 18 May 2002 13:36
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] re: vomiting blood

on 5/18/02 11:39 AM, Nick Sandberg at sandberg@onetel.net.uk wrote:

OK, just so that everyone knows whats going on here I will debrief those who
have been kind enough to offer their support.
I decided after much deliberation and discussions with a number of both
laypersons involved and doctors not to take him to hospital. After talking
to Nick I made up my mind to go, but then got on the phone the NHS help line
(National Health Service), who said try and take him to the doctors if he
really doesn’t want to go to hospital. So I rung my local doctor and surgery
and he very kindly talked me through what could be happening. By this stage
the guy hadn’t puked any more blood for about 9-10 hours ad had had only
clean vomit.
The doctor seemed convinced that this was a good sign, that if there was any
internal bleeding he would still be vomiting as the body has to reject it.
He also said that bright red, or blood clots were the worrying signs. So I
said well the last vomit at about 6am had had dark brown blood clots in it.
He said that had I rung then he would have said go to hospital, but the fact
that there had been no more most probably meant that the bleeding had
healed. He assured me that there seemed no imminent danger from everything I
had described and gave me his emergency number adn said he would come out on
call at any time of the night. I was very lucky to have such an
understanding and helpful doctor. Due to this phone call and another doctor
I rung who said the same thing I decided to leave him at home ad sat with
him through another night. I was sure to keep him well hydrated, making sure
that he was urinating and checking all vital signs constantly.
He now seems in a relatively stable state. He is still sweating mildly and
complaining of mild leg cramps and doesn’t seem to remember much of the
actual trip, but says he has no cravings.

I am still monitoring him and have suggested he go to the doctor when he is
feeling more together just to check everything out. Hopefully he will go.
What this experience has taught me is that I will from now on have a doctor
I can call and ask advice and one that will help in an emergency.

I hope this info is helpful for others doing this work. More often than not
it is smooth riding, but every so often something like this comes up ad one
realises quite what a responsibility this is – especially doing it without a
support team. If there is anyone in the UK or europe who would be interested
in helping me, share shifts and being there as support, please get in touch.

Thanks everyone

Hattie
Think I’ve deleted the post but personally I’d have to disagree with the
idea of taking no action.

If I were doing the treatment I’d be thinking, basically, here I have
someone vomiting significant blood, yet telling me he’s feeling fine –
someone whose mind is saying one thing yet whose body is saying something
quite different.

On one hand, my main issue, personally, would be – do I really want to
drag
this unwilling addict down to the local A&E unit and tell a load of people
in white coats what I’ve been doing? I’d be fearful of a load of judgment
from people who know a great deal more than me about medicine? I’d be
worried of exposing what I’m up to to the authorities. I’d be thinking –
basically the chance of this guy dying is pretty miniscule and he says he
feeling fine, so why bother? Besides – how is it going to help him to have
the “iboga experience” if he’s sitting in an A&E ward waiting in line
beside
a load of Sat night casualties waiting to have someone check him out?

On the other hand, this guy’s body is saying – I want to be checked out,
something is going on here. And I also know that to offer someone
treatment,
on a professional basis, without formal medical qualifications, means I
have
to be prepared to do something like drag this guy down the hospital, even
when he doesn’t want to go. And that I couldn’t realistically be
criticized
for doing something like this, I’d be doing precisely what any concerned
individual would do. I’d also be worried that, if I don’t take him, for
whatever reason, I could get into a habit of doing things like this and
that
one day I could regret walking down this road big time. Then there would
be
the biggie – What if this guy did actually die, and I could have done
something about it? Do I really need something like this to happen in my
life?

Just a few random thoughts, without prejudice (because it’s very easy for
me
to pontificate when I’m not in this situation), plus remembering that the
Bwiti “Christ” is Michael, archangel of Temperance, he who tests us in our
lives us, to find out what’s really going on inside of us. Don’t know how
much of a test I’d pass myself.

Nick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction C onference
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:26:55 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes carrie, it is, as long as the option ‘reduces harm’ to users
Might be that some users actually don’t respond very well to methadone, or
ibogaine or whatever

Horses for courses and all that

Everybody needs assessing according to their own life circumstances

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carrie Rollins [mailto:carrierollins@yahoo.com]
Sent: 18 May 2002 10:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

-carrie

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference
Cc: clear@harmreduction.org, kra1@nyu.edu,
barlow@eff.org,
ibogaine@mindvox.org
Status:

Ibogaine is a substance derived from the bark of the
root of iboga
tabernanthe, an African rainforest shrub. It is the
principal alkaloid of
twelve active beta-carbolines, and is now available
both as purified
Ibogaine HCl, and in a whole plant extract that
contains all the active
alkaloids.

This presentation traces the discovery and development
of Ibogaine as the
first treatment for polydrug dependency that is
neither a blocker nor a
maintenance drug, but an “addiction interrupter.”
Since the first
verification of addicts’ anecdotal claims of efficacy
in the animal model
the late ’80’s, a number of different neuro-chemical
paradigms have been
advanced to explain the novel mechanism at work.

Previously, in the ’50’s and ’60’s  these were a)
psychoto-mimesis
(Gottlieb, MK-Ultra), b) de-conditioning (Leary,
Alpert), c) reversal of
addiction to a pre-addictive state (Lotsof).

Animal research of the 80’s focused on the dopamine
model–ie, dopamine as
“reward” (Glick, Broderick).
But at the beginning of the ’90’s two diametrically
opposed explanations of
ibogaine mechanism grabbed the limelight– the work of
Gouterel ,
Golnhoffer & Jouvet likening the ibogaine effect to
the deprogramming that
occurs during REM sleep, and the finding of Molliver
and O’Hearn of
high-dose cerebellar neuro-toxicity and their
consequent suggestion that
Ibogaine might be eliminating addicted cells.

In the mid-’90’s  new explanations emerged involving
down-regulation of
tolerance to opiates and supersensitivity to
stimulants at the NMDA
receptor (Poppik, Skolnick), and a serotonergic
long-acting metabolite
(Mash, et al) with weak opioid agonist properties that
would make Ibogaine
much more like a long-acting depo-narcotic.

“The Ibogaine Story” (Beal, DeRienzo) correlated NMDA
regulation of calcium
influx with an underlying anatomy of calceous
microtubules thought
according to the hypothesis of Hameroff et al to
generate consciousness
from coherent photons.  This explained certain quantum
phenomena observed
during Ibogaine experiences while allowing for a
window of neuro-plasticity
that accounted for long-lasting changes observed after
treatment –a notion
that was confirmed by recent work on Ibogaine’s
interior effects in neurons
by Emmanuel Onaivi, who found tell-tale traces
microtubulin-associated
protein.

More recent findings, however, have thrown all of
these explanations in
doubt, starting with revision of the dopamine
hypothesis based on the
findings of Alper, et al–to wit, that dopamine acts
primarily to attach
salience to things in the environment rather than
being pure “reward” that
Ibogaine is somehow downregulating.

Likewise, where Molliver et al cited activation of
glial cells (scavenger
cells) as equivocal evidence of neural damage, Parpura
and Hayden found
that glia signal via glutamate discharge, so that glia
are turned on by any
major glutaminergic event such as the
super-stimulation cerebellum on
Ibogaine.

On the other hand, Conquet, et al found that removal
of the metabotropic
glutamate receptor mGluR5 made it impossible to addict
mice to cocaine,
even though their dopaminergic systems respond to
cocaine as usual.

Finally, development of 18-Methoxycorinaridine by
Glick, et al presents the
paradox of an Ibogaine congener that is effective in
stopping
self-administration of opiates and stimulants in
animals, but is not
particularly active at either serotonin or NMDA
receptors.

In sum, though thousands of people continue to take
Ibogaine to tackle
their addictions, and Ibogaine has given a whole
generation of researchers
new insights into the brainchemistry of addiction, no
one knows exactly how
this stuff works.

NOTE: this presentation is intended to be paired with
one by Patrick
Kroupa, an addict’s eye-view of addiction treatments,
from UROD to
methadone. I am not optimistic that it will be
accepted into the program
for November, because of the usual countervailing
forces affecting anything
having to do with Ibogaine. Your feedback is welcome.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 20, 2002 at 12:17:54 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow guys, this really makes me want to dump my life in London and Live in Ft
Lauderdale, or wherever in FL. And I have met such wonderful young/ol/not so
old-young men and women Harm Reductionists/DP Reformers from there;

I didn’t like Miami though – gotta be honest, and it wasn’t cos I was
gang-raped or broken hearted there; It was just too concrete,
materially-oriented and a little in need of a bloody good clean up

(But hey, there’s bound to be somewhere wonderful in Florida, right?!)

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 17 May 2002 23:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House

Miami is the one major city in N. America that I’ve

Miami is an island off of South America in the Banana
Republic of Dade County.

never been to, because
everyone I know who knows me and has been there has
basically told me that
“if you had a personal Hell, that’d be it.”

No, more like pergetory. It is a cultural wasteland.

Supposedly more silicone than

Yup.

a Mattel factory, tons of beautiful women

Yup.

if you’ve
got a Rolex (even your

That too BUT there are lots of other women that are
not like that. Lets just say that the problem of too
many can come up if you are halfway good looking,
under 70, not gay and have an IQ of over 90 – which
excludes about 90% of the men in Florida.

Tag won’t get you anything here), weather that would
kill yours truly
who’s most comfortable physically or socially in San
Francisco or Denver,
“Pioneers in Carjacking”, and solidly Republican
suburbs.  (Sounds like my
least favorite place on earth, Los Angeles.)

Exactly, LA, Miami and places like that are not what I
call real cities, SF, Paris, Denver, Boston, NY,
Chicago, those are real cities, the others are
plasterboard.

My co-worker here tells me that the reason
carjackers favored rental cars
and Eurotourists is because so many native Miamians
carry guns in their
cars because the crime is so terrible.

We also carry guns because we can (legally). I had a
permit only because of the strange gun laws. Like if I
happened to drive by a school on my way to the gun
range, well I just comitted a FELONY. With a carry
permit it is legal to be within 1000 feet of a school.
But then a few things happened and I decided I would
feel really stupid if I got shot and didn’t carry – I
am a very good shot.

It doesn’t matter where you are. Some particular group
of people have taken to riding around in vans and
asking girls for directions, then they haul her in and
gang rape her several times and toss her out
somewhere, usually alive  – in GOOD neighborhoods.
There are other stories but yes it is pretty bad here
(I live in Ft. Lauderdale)

Yup, I carry a gun and not only in my car, to the
bathroom! (they do home invasions too, stay there for
days terrorizing people). It is not that I am so
afraid of people (I am not), just that you never know
when and where. IMO, if you are going to carry a gun,
carry it always.

Here in
Denver, I could walk
through the “worst” parts of town without a whole
lot of fear of getting
my ass kicked.

I can do that in Harlem, lower east side of Manhattan,
places most people really shouldn’t be wandering
around – but I am not a tourist in NY.

Is the crime really that bad?  How
does it compare to say,
Chicago or Manhattan?  (I can’t imagine worse crime
than Manhattan, but
whatever.)

It isn’t that it is worse, it is that they are crazy.
This kid in the neighborhood has taken to breaking
into peoples houses and cars, everyone knows him, he
gets caught, goes to jail, comes out, does it again –
and he is just getting started! Here, they will shoot
you, just because they feel like it. A friend with a
liquor store had this guy come in, all ready but he
fingered him (I had just arrived) and stood right next
to him “helping” him in the store (he is 300+lbs). I
didn’t have my gun for some stupid reason, went home
and got it to hang around but by the time I got back,
the kid came back and took a shot (as in BANG and miss
but took out a bottle of Red Label) at my friend
because he was pissed he got fingered and didn’t get
to rob the place. Then ran off real quick because my
buddy had his 38 pointed right at his head. Another
liquor store (GREAT NEIGHBORHOOD) closed down because
of robberies at gun point.

I don’t know if I could ever acclimate
to daily 100% humidity
and 95 degree temperatures.  Here, it seems

I have not in 7 years. Get use to AC.

unbearable if it gets above
80.

It seems as though some of you on this list live
around there, and I would
be curious to see what you think of it.

DON’T DO IT MAN!!!!!

I ask
because if I ever get into
school, my GF has agreed to support me, but needs to

Lots of schools right near me, some are actually good.

live somewhere hot in
exchange for four years of sponging, so I’ll be
looking southward…

off-topically,
j.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Thu, 16 May 2002, Carla Barnes wrote:

I saw this on TV. That’s so so disgusting. What’s
wrong with Miami? Why bother.
Carla B
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Pubdate: Wed, 15 May 2002
Source: New York Post (NY)
Section: Page 6
Website: http://www.nypost.com/
Feedback:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/letters/letters_editor.htm
Address: 1211 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY
10036-8790
Contact: letters@nypost.com
Copyright: 2002 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc.
Author: Richard Johnson with Paula Froelich and
Chris Wilson

POT PARADOX

DIONNE Warwick’s arrest for marijuana over the
weekend struck some
knowledgable types as more than a bit ironic.
“Dionne was the guest of
honor at the Samaritan Village’s benefit awards
dinner last month at the
New York Hilton,” a source recalled. The Village,
a well-known drug rehab
center with live-in communities all over New York,
honored Warwick for her
work in fighting drugs. “What a joke!” the dinner
spy sneered.
– —
MAP posted-by: Beth

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 20, 2002 at 11:38:18 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

September 11? Seems like a bad day for americans…. I wonder what else happened on September 11 in 50 years between!

Marko

At 15:40 20.5.2002, you wrote:

On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820 (Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 20, 2002 at 9:40:17 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As I understand it the Rockafellers bought the exclusive license to
manufacture and distribute Methadone from Germany after
WW II.  If you will remember, Hitler had his medical geniuses invent
Methadone as a substitute for opiates because Germany
was cut off from their supplies of Opiates for wounded battle field
soldiers.<

excerpt from my first ibogaine list post-

http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id838/pg1/
M is for Methadone
snip-
In 1939 two scientists working for I.G. Farben, Otto Eisleb, and O.
Schaumann, at Hoechst-Am-Main, Germany, discovered an opioid analgesic which
after numbering compound 8909, they named Dolantin (Pethidine). Hopes that
it would be a new, non-addictive pain reliever, to take the place of
Morphine, just like Diamorphine (heroin), before it, came to naught.
However, because it was an extremely effective analgesic, the Germans used
the drug extensively throughout War World II.

(Unless otherwise noted, facts are taken from The Methadone Briefing, edited
by Andrew Preston, London: Waterbridge House, 1996).

From 1937 through the Spring and Summer of 1938, two other scientists
working for I.G. Farben, Max Bockmuhl, and Gustav Ehrart, were working with
similar compounds to Dolantin. Bockmuhl and Ehrart were searching for drugs
with certain characteristics, such as “water soluble hypnotics (sleep
inducing) substances, effective drugs to slow the gastrointestinal tract to
make surgery easier, effective analgesics that were structurally dissimilar
to Morphine-in the hopes that they would be non-addictive, and escape the
strict controls on opiates.”

On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application for,
and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820 (Polamidon),
which eventually became known as Methadone.

In the Autumn of 1942, I.G. Farben handed over the drug, codenamed “Amidon”,
to the German military for further testing.

The Nazis did not make any attempt to mass produce the drug, unlike
Pethidine, which by 1944 was being produced at an annual rate of 1600 kg.
One reason for this was given by Dr. K K Chen, an early American researcher,
after the war. He said that a former employee of the I. G. Farben factory
had written him, saying that the Germans had discontinued Polamidon use due
to its side effects. Chen decided that the Nazis had been giving their test
subject doses that were too high, causing nausea, overdose, etc.

After the war ended, the Allies divided up the spoils. I. G. Farben was in
an US-occupied zone so all its “intellectual capital” (patent, trade names,
and the like) came under US management. Along with the formula for Zyklon B,
a nerve gas that the Nazis used in some of their extermination programs,
Methadone was now an American possession.

One very common misconception is that Dolophine, one of the very first trade
names given to the drug, was derived from “Adolph”, in honor of the dictator
himself by the Nazis, and that in Germany it was called “Adolophine.” The
fact of the matter seems to be this name was not given the drug until after
the war, by the Eli-Lilly pharmaceutical company in America, which was given
control of the drug.

If there was any honoring of Hitler going on, it was by the Americans who
invented this urban legend. Dolophine most likely derives from the French
words “dolor” (pain), and “fin” (end).

Eli-Lilly, along with other companies in the US and Great Britain, began
clinical trials of Dolophine, marketing the drug as a pain killer and cough
suppressant. In 1947, Isabel et al, published their findings after
experimenting on both animals and humans. After giving doses of up to
200mg., four times a day, they found that there was rapid tolerance, and
euphoria. They also discovered that there were a bevy of adverse side
effects, such as, “signs of toxicity . . . inflammation of the skin . . .
deep narcosis and . . . a general clinical appearance of illness.” Once
again, just like the Nazis, the scientists were giving doses that were far
too high.

snip-
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “tgoodson7” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 9:59 PM
Subject: Fw: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone

As I understand it the Rockafellers bought the exclusive license to
manufacture and distribute Methadone from Germany after
WW II.  If you will remember, Hitler had his medical geniuses invent
Methadone as a substitute for opiates because Germany
was cut off from their supplies of Opiates for wounded battle field
soldiers.

So, with a Billion Dollar campaign fund you would find an awfull lot of
opposition to any kind of competition for Methadone!!
This monopoly on Methadone probably financially sustains the Rockafeller
University in New York.  At least I understand
the license is in trust to the University or some kind financial
arrangement
for the benefit for the University.  I am sure you guys
remember that Methadone as originally compounded was called “Adolfine” for
Adolf Hitler; however, can you imagine anyone
in this US adapting to anything named after its worste enemy so the name
Methadone was probably born from such
sentiments.  Just a suggestion from an ‘ol Man, a surviving relic of WW
II.

Tommy Goodson    No, I was not in the European Theater of war; I was in
the
South Pacific!!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

I don’t know that it’s all money. For sure methadone is a big industry,
though as you mention it’s the peripherals, not the drug itself, that is
where the spending goes. You’ve also got to remember that, at a deep
level,
iboga and opiates are fundamentally opposite concepts. The action of an
opiate is always to diminish awareness, to cause pain to recede and with
it
all the feelings and ideas that are bringing pain up. The action of
iboga
is
the opposite, the drug always seeks to raise awareness to bring painful,
repressed ideas and feelings to light.

I have iboga-esque images come to me where I can see the two – iboga and
opiate – both operating at opposite ends of the daily, diurnal clock,
the
iboga pushing the material held in the darkness to light at dawn and the
opiate shovelling it all back again at dusk.

The methadone programme can be justified by many means, it can be a
great
stepping stone to drug freedom. It can validly be portrayed in a totally
useful social light. But, at the end of the day, it is still an opiate,
still a drug whose fundamental action is the complete opposite of
ibogaine.
And its advocates will therefore be people whose fundamental
orientation,
beneath the shared veneer of opposing heroin addiction, is quite
antithetic
to ibogaine.

Personally, I really wouldn’t bother getting into long debates or
arguments
with the methadone pushing fraternity. I doubt many will ever root for
ibogaine in a meaningful way because they will have a core orientation
antithetical to the whole iboga concept, (and this same orientation will
mean they will be opposed to appreciating this). At the end of the day,
I
figure you gotta expect hassle from anyone who is, for whatever reason,
pushing an opiate. Maybe I’m being too harsh.

Nick

PS – Great to hear how Hattie’s vomitting experience worked out. A great
example for us all.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

Hi Carrie,

I’ll tell you why Methadone people don’t like (to put it mildly)
Ibogaine:

In my country there are a bit over 2 million people (less than a
modest
city in your country, I guess), and we spend over 10 million US$ per
year
for Methadone program. This is not for Methadone alone, you have to
add
salary for doctors and nurses and cleaners, and rents, and all other
expenses connected to this buissiness. How much money would that be in
Germany or USA?

Then there’s that Methadone is proven to do whatever it does, and
doctors
don’t have any trouble at work; they know exactly how things are
running.
With Ibogaine (being “dirty drug”) you never know how a “patient” will
respond.

And Ibogaine conferences are not so often and in so many beautiful
places
of the world as Methadone conferences are!

Don’t forget that Ibogaine isn’t patented (at least not by
pharmaceutical
companies), so they can’t make any money on it. And, Methadone must be
taken daily, and Ibogaine once or twice in a lifetime… there’s
absolutly
no profit from it!

The bottom line is MONEY!! Pharmaceutical companies must make profits
to
keep their owners happy and wealthy. And they (pharmaceutical
companies)
run medicine as they wish; they are the ones with money. They push
expensive medicaments to increase their profits. MDs don’t have enough
time
to learn about new medicaments they could use anymore, so salespersons
of
pharmaceutical companies educate them, and they even give them BIG
free
samples which can be tried on patients; and these companies invite MDs
to
“study travels” (or whatever you call this in english – In my language
this
could be called a brib.) on their expenses, and MDs supposedly study
there
;-))

There’s another thing you shouldn’t forget: there are very few people
that
have bolls to introduce something new into medicine, especially if
they
are
already part of the established system. And MDs don’t listen to
non-MDs,
because we don’t belong among them!! Here you shouldn’t forget that
ONLY
MDs have licenses to heal people, if anyone else does it it’s against
the
law!!!

I hope that you have enough to think about (for the beginning). You
can
find plenty of support data (for what I wrote) all over Internet, and
with
a bit of sane thinking you can draw conclusions of your own.

Hope this answered your question,

Marko

At 11:22 18.5.2002, you wrote:
Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] FW:[vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and afghanistan: the master plan}
Date: May 20, 2002 at 2:06:29 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Reply-to: vox@mindvox.com
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 22:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: SNF <the_panty_sniffer@yahoo.com>
To: vox@mindvox.com
Subject: [vox] Lucy {conspiracy in truth? oil, heroin and afghanistan: the
master plan}

“Oh Lucy!  You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do”

A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH – IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T
INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away

by

Michael C. Ruppert

[© COPYRIGHT 2001, All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The
Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be copied and distributed for
non-profit purposes only.]
[Expanded and Revised April 18, 2002]

FTW, November 2, 2001 – 1200 PST — On October 31, the French daily Le Figaro
dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a
chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official
– presumably the Chief of Station. The meeting, held in bin Laden’s private
suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a
wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and this year’s attack
on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000
intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office in
January. Yet on July 14th he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet and
there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.

In 1985 Oliver North – the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who doesn’t
appear to have a hand in the current war – sent the Navy and commandos after
terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography “Under
Fire,” while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, “I used to wonder:
how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?” One could look at
the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before
September 11 and ask the same question.

It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events both
before and after the September 11th suicide attacks, which have been blamed on
bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that
there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their
execution. It also makes clear that the events which have taken place since
September 11th are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the attacks.

One wonders how these events could have been ignored by the major media or
treated as isolated incidents. Failing that, how could skilled news agencies
avoid being outraged, or at least even just a little suspicious?

1. 1991-1997 – Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco, Unocal,
BP Amoco, Shell and Enron directly invest billions in cash bribing heads of
state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in these
regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in
Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to Russia
to use Russian pipelines the major oil companies have no way to recoup their
investments. [“The Price of Oil,” by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July 9,
2001 – The Asia Times, “The Roving Eye Part I Jan. 26, 2002.]

2. December 4, 1997 – Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the
Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline.
Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly
because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

3. February 12, 1998 – Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca – later to become
a Special Ambassador to Afghanistan – testifies before the House that until a
single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan the
trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built. [Source:
Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

4. 1998 – The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi
Arabia was harboring an al-Q’aeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more
detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August
2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times 1/12/01; See No Evil by a book by
Robert Baer (release date Feb. 2002).

5. April, 1999 – Enron with a $3 billion investment to build an electrical
generating plant at Dabhol India loses access to plentiful LNG supplies from
Qatar to fuel the plant. Its only remaining option to make the investment
profitable is a trans-Afghani gas pipeline to be built by Unocal from
Turkmenistan that would terminate near the Indian border at the city of Multan.
[Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002.]

6. 1998 and 2000 – Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on
behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense
contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal
family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001.
See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 – “The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,” –
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/carlyle.html. ]

7. January, 2001 – The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence
agencies to “back off” investigations involving the bin Laden family, including
two of Osama bin Laden’s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls
Church, VA – right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders
dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden family.
[Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast – Nov 7, 2001].

8. Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while covering a
trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers – reports that the National Security
Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this indicates
that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that
the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

9. May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the
Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the
destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime.
[Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].

10. May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert
operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while CIA
Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani
leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani
intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil
decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while in
Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,” also
met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI.
[Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]

11. June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that
Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as
weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.” [Source:
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]

12. July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador
to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South
Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia),
meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them
that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A
French book released in November, “Bin Laden – La Verite´ Interdite,” discloses
that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers
confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The
Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press
Service, Nov 16, 2001]

[Doug Note:  This book also has an interview with the FBI Anti-terrorist head
who resigned in protest of the Bush administration telling the FBI to hold off
their of pursuit of obvious terrorist operations in the US if they were Saudi
or Afghan related.]

13. Summer, 2001 – The National Security Council convenes a Dabhol working
group as revealed in a series of government e-mails obtained by The Washington
Post and the New York Daily News. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002]

14. Summer 2001 – According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain’s The Guardian,
correspondent David Leigh reported that, “U.S. department of defense official,
Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian’s Felicity
Lawrence established that US Rangers were also training special troops in
Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special troops
were training in Alaska and Montana.”

15. Summer 2001 (est.) – Pakistani ISI Chief General Ahmad (see above) orders
an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, who was according to the
FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned
after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI. [Source:
The Times of India, October 11, 2001.]

16. Summer 2001 – An Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an
imminent attack on the World Trade Center in the week of September 9th. German
police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not
reveal any further information. [Source: German news agency “online.de”,
September 14, 2001, translation retrieved from online.ie in Ireland.]

17. June 26, 2001 – The magazine indiareacts.com states that “India and Iran
will ‘facilitate’ US and Russian plans for ‘limited military action’ against
the Taliban.” The story indicates that the fighting will be done by US and
Russian troops with the help of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. [Source:
indiareacts.com, June 26, 2001.]

18. August 2001 – The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in
Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of bin
Laden’s network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons. At
the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on
Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, September 13.]

19. August 11 or 12 – US Navy Lt. Delmart “Mike” Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on
U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence,
writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope which
he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001;
Toronto Superior Court Records]

20. Summer 2001 – Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist
pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions. This is reported
in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired CIA
officer.

21. July 4-14, 2001 – Osama bin Laden receives treatments for kidney disease at
the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official who returns to CIA
headquarters on July 15th. [Source: Le Figaro, October 31st, 2001.]

22. August 2001 – Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence
to warn the U.S. government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent
attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MS-NBC interview with
Putin, September 15.]

23. August/September, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900
points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is
imminent.

24. Sept. 3-10, 2001 – MS-NBC reports on September 16 that a caller to a Cayman
Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S.
by bin Laden in the week prior to 9/11.

25. September 1-10, 2001 – In an exercise, Operation “Swift Sword” planned for
four years, 23, 000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the 9/11
attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment the massive operation was implemented
as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station
in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some
17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation
“Bright Star.” All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the
World Trade Center. [Sources: The Guardian, CNN, FOX, The Observer,
International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]

26. September 7, 2001 – Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency
executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National Guard
to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of
large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of
Florida web site listing of Governor’s Executive Orders.]

27. September 6-7, 2001 – 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will
go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call
options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and
abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the UAL puts are purchased
through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current
Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya
International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism, http://www.ict.org.il/,
September 21; The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal.]

28. September 10, 2001 – 4,516 put options are purchased on American Airlines
as compared to 748 call options. [Source: ICT – above]

29. September 6-11, 2001 – No other airlines show any similar trading patterns
to those experienced by UAL and American. The put option purchases on both
airlines were 600% above normal. This at a time when Reuters (September 10)
issues a business report stating, “Airline stocks may be poised to take off.”

30. September 6-10, 2001 – Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased
in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25% of American
Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the
September 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above; FTW, Vol. IV, No.7, October 18,
2001, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/oct152001.html. ]

31. It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and many other
intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced
programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert
national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was
reported, as recently as June, 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden’s possession and,
as a result of recent stories by FOX, both the FBI and the Justice Department
have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least this
summer. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent
attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; FOX News, October 16,
2001; FTW, October 26, 2001, – http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/magic_carpet.html; FTW, Vol. IV, No.6, Sept. 18, 2001 –
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
members/sept1801.html; FTW, Vol. 3, No 7, 9/30/00 – www.fromthewilderness.com/
free/pandora/052401_promis.html.

32. September 11, 2001 – Gen Mahmud of the ISI (see above), friend of Mohammed
Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban. He is meeting with the
Chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Porter Goss (R), FL
and Bob Graham (D), Fl [Sources: MS-NBC, Oct. 7, The New York Times, Feb. 17,
2002.]

33. September 11, 2001 – Employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the world’s
largest instant messaging companies, with offices in New York, receive threat
warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC less than two hours before the first
plane hits the WTC. Law enforcement authorities have gone silent about any
investigation of this. The Odigo Research and Development offices in Israel are
located in the city of Herzliyya, a ritzy suburb of Tel Aviv which is the same
location as the Institute for Counter Terrorism which breaks early details of
insider trading on 9-11. [Source: CNN’s Daniel Sieberg, 9/28/01; Newsbytes,
Brian McWilliams, 9/27/01; Ha’aretz, 9/26/01.].

34. September 11, 2001, For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it
widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been
simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of
the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled
to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command
Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was
known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred – an event that has never
happened in history. [Sources: CNN, ABC, MS-NBC, The Los Angeles Times, The New
York Times.]

35. September 13, 2001 – China is admitted to the World Trade Organization
quickly, after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts. [Source: The New York Times,
Sept. 30, 2001.]

36. September 14, 2001 – Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from Mike
Vreeland in Toronto and see that is describes attacks against the WTC and
Pentagon. The U.S. Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged as a
seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in
intelligence. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court
records]

37. September 15, 2001 – The New York Times reports that Mayo Shattuck III has
resigned, effective immediately, as head of the Alex (A.B) Brown unit of
Deutschebank.

38. September 29, 2001 – The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5 million
in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines are unclaimed. This is
likely the result of the suspension in trading on the NYSE after the attacks
which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when the
owners showed up to redeem their put options.

39. October 10, 2001 – The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that
U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil
minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across
Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and gas to
China, is now back on the table “in view of recent geopolitical developments.”

40. October 11, 2001 – The Ashcroft Justice Department takes over all terrorist
prosecutions from the U.S. Attorneys office in New York which has had a highly
successful track record in prosecuting terrorist cases connected to Osama bin
Laden. [Source: The New York Times, Oct. 11, 2002.]

41. Mid October, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having suffered
a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although still
weak, and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been averted by
a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies for
“affected” industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.

42. November 21, 2001 – The British paper The Independent runs a story
headlined, “Opium Farmers Rejoice at the Defeat of the Taliban.” The story
reports that massive opium planting is underway all over the country.

43. November 25, 2001 – The Observer runs a story headlined “Victorious
Warlords Set To Open the Opium Floodgates.” It states that farmers are being
encouraged by warlords allied with the victorious Americans are “being
encouraged to plant “as much opium as possible.”

44. December 4, 2001 – Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi is
recruited by the US government to help establish control in Afghanistan by
unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one of the
CIA’s leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from prison in
order to do this. [Source: The Asia Times Online, 12/4/01].

45. December 25, 2001 – Newly appointed afghani Prime Minister Hamid Karzai is
revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal. [Source: Le Monde.]

46. January 3, 2002 – President Bush appoints Zalamy Khalilzad as a special
envoy to Afghanistan. Khalilzad, a former employee of Unocal, also wrote op-eds
in the Washington Post in 1997 supporting the Taliban regime. [Source: Pravda,
1/9/02]

47. January 4, 2002 – Florida drug trafficking explodes after 9-11. In a surge
of trafficking reminiscent of the 1980s the diversion of resources away from
drug enforcement has opened the floodgates for a new surge of cocaine and
heroin from South America. [The Christian Science Monitor, January 4, 2002.

48. January 10, 2002 – In a call from a speaker phone in open court, attorneys
for “Mike” Vreeland call the Pentagon’s switchboard operator who confirms that
Vreeland is indeed a Naval Lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office
number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon.
[Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; court records Toronto Superior Court.]

49. January 10, 2002 – Attorney General John Ashcroft recuses himself from the
Enron investigation because Enron had been a major campaign donor in his 2000
Senate race. He fails to recuse himself from involvement in two sitting Federal
grand juries investigating bribery and corruption charges against ExxonMobil
and BP-Amoco who have massive oil interests in Central Asia. Both were major
Ashcroft donors in 2000. [Source: CNN, Jan. 10, 2002 – FTW original
investigation, The Elephant in the Living Room, Part I, Apr 4, 2002.]

50. February 9, 2002 – Pakistani leader General Musharraf and Afghan leader
Hamid Karzai announce their agreement to “cooperate in all spheres of activity”
including the proposed Central Asian pipeline. Pakistan will give $10 million
to Afghanistan to help pay Afghani government workers. [Source: The Irish
Times, 2/9/02]

51. Feb 18, 2002 – The Financial Times reports that the estimated opium harvest
in Afghanistan in the late Spring of 2002 will reach a world record 4500 metric
tons.

Now, let’s go back to the October 31 story by Le Figaro – the one that has
Osama bin Laden meeting with a CIA officer in Dubai this June.

The story says that, “Throughout his stay in the hospital, Osama Bin Laden
received visits from many family members [There goes the story that he’s a
black sheep!] and Saudi Arabian Emirate personalities of status. During this
time the local representative of the CIA was seen by many people taking the
elevator and going to bin Laden’s room.

“Several days later the CIA officer bragged to his friends about having visited
the Saudi millionaire. From authoritative sources, this CIA agent visited CIA
headquarters on July 15th, the day after bin Laden’s departure for Quettaק

“According to various Arab diplomatic sources and French intelligence itself,
precise information was communicated to the CIA concerning terrorist attacks
aimed at American interests in the world, including its own territory.”ק

“Extremely bothered, they [American intelligence officers in a meeting with
French intelligence officers] requested from their French peers exact details
about the Algerian activists [connected to bin Laden through Dubai banking
institutions], without explaining the exact nature of their inquiry. When asked
the question, “What do you fear in the coming days?’ the Americans responded
with incomprehensible silence.”ק

“On further investigation, the FBI discovered certain plans that had been put
together between the CIA and its “Islamic friends” over the years. The meeting
in Dubai is, so it would seem, consistent with ‘a certain American policy.'”

Even though Le Figaro reported that it had confirmed with hospital staff that
bin Laden had been there as reported, stories printed on November 1 contained
quotes from hospital staff that these reports were untrue. On November 1, as
reported by the Ananova press agency, the CIA flatly denied that any meeting
between any CIA personnel and Osama bin Laden at any time.

Who do you believe?

WATCH THIS PAGE FOR CONTINUING ADDITIONS TO THIS TIMELINE
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html

__________________________________________________
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LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 20, 2002 at 1:56:34 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

P Pete writes, “It is not enough
for me to post simple drugwar news, but I feel it also very necessary to
point out the many uses, of all drugs, that are not necessarily drugwar
related, but rather demonstrate the many religious and other reasons for
drug use in all cultures.
Any ideas, or posts, please don’t hesitate to send ’em my way.
    I think I’m beginning to repeat myself.”
Good work, Pete!  The fact that we even say “drug” (as in drug down? drug around, the past tense of drag) kind of disses the “religious” use in all cultures.  I mean there, the word is “sacrament” (i.e; sacredness) or something like, yes?  In Roman Catholocism, the faithful are taught that the priest, via the agency of God, actually changes the little wafers into the body of Christ.  They insist it is true, not a a metaphor.  Of course, it IS true, as “borrowed” from the Eleusian mysteries, that such things can happen, but what went on in the church of my childhood definitely did not include any such transformation.  they left out more than the yeast, so to speak.  But the fact that “bread” CAN include (even without yeast) the essence of God, that is real.  As I’m sure all on this list pretty much attest to all the time.  I mean we don’t have to say “God,” it’s just easier than all those other ways of trying to eff the ineff.
I know none of the above is “news,” much less the “good news” that the xtians sometimes rant on about,  but the fact is, it IS good news that the plants and we and something like a god can still commune, cocreate, and BE together, don’t ya think? Here’s an old-fashioned anthroplogical insight – that the ritual of any group basically constitutes and reconstitutes the prevailing power structure of that group. In a group whose ritual says, “fly,” etc…..The Bwiti seem to say “meet your tribe past and and future.”  I found it weird that me, a non-Bwit, met them and their ancestors as well.  Still, for me, I have to assimilate the convergence with the ineff into a process so I can eff!  Yabadabbadoo, Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: “tgoodson7” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
Subject: Fw: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference; Ibogaine and Methadone
Date: May 19, 2002 at 9:59:57 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As I understand it the Rockafellers bought the exclusive license to
manufacture and distribute Methadone from Germany after
WW II.  If you will remember, Hitler had his medical geniuses invent
Methadone as a substitute for opiates because Germany
was cut off from their supplies of Opiates for wounded battle field
soldiers.

So, with a Billion Dollar campaign fund you would find an awfull lot of
opposition to any kind of competition for Methadone!!
This monopoly on Methadone probably financially sustains the Rockafeller
University in New York.  At least I understand
the license is in trust to the University or some kind financial arrangement
for the benefit for the University.  I am sure you guys
remember that Methadone as originally compounded was called “Adolfine” for
Adolf Hitler; however, can you imagine anyone
in this US adapting to anything named after its worste enemy so the name
Methadone was probably born from such
sentiments.  Just a suggestion from an ‘ol Man, a surviving relic of WW II.

Tommy Goodson    No, I was not in the European Theater of war; I was in the
South Pacific!!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

I don’t know that it’s all money. For sure methadone is a big industry,
though as you mention it’s the peripherals, not the drug itself, that is
where the spending goes. You’ve also got to remember that, at a deep
level,
iboga and opiates are fundamentally opposite concepts. The action of an
opiate is always to diminish awareness, to cause pain to recede and with
it
all the feelings and ideas that are bringing pain up. The action of iboga
is
the opposite, the drug always seeks to raise awareness to bring painful,
repressed ideas and feelings to light.

I have iboga-esque images come to me where I can see the two – iboga and
opiate – both operating at opposite ends of the daily, diurnal clock, the
iboga pushing the material held in the darkness to light at dawn and the
opiate shovelling it all back again at dusk.

The methadone programme can be justified by many means, it can be a great
stepping stone to drug freedom. It can validly be portrayed in a totally
useful social light. But, at the end of the day, it is still an opiate,
still a drug whose fundamental action is the complete opposite of
ibogaine.
And its advocates will therefore be people whose fundamental orientation,
beneath the shared veneer of opposing heroin addiction, is quite
antithetic
to ibogaine.

Personally, I really wouldn’t bother getting into long debates or
arguments
with the methadone pushing fraternity. I doubt many will ever root for
ibogaine in a meaningful way because they will have a core orientation
antithetical to the whole iboga concept, (and this same orientation will
mean they will be opposed to appreciating this). At the end of the day, I
figure you gotta expect hassle from anyone who is, for whatever reason,
pushing an opiate. Maybe I’m being too harsh.

Nick

PS – Great to hear how Hattie’s vomitting experience worked out. A great
example for us all.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

Hi Carrie,

I’ll tell you why Methadone people don’t like (to put it mildly)
Ibogaine:

In my country there are a bit over 2 million people (less than a modest
city in your country, I guess), and we spend over 10 million US$ per
year
for Methadone program. This is not for Methadone alone, you have to add
salary for doctors and nurses and cleaners, and rents, and all other
expenses connected to this buissiness. How much money would that be in
Germany or USA?

Then there’s that Methadone is proven to do whatever it does, and
doctors
don’t have any trouble at work; they know exactly how things are
running.
With Ibogaine (being “dirty drug”) you never know how a “patient” will
respond.

And Ibogaine conferences are not so often and in so many beautiful
places
of the world as Methadone conferences are!

Don’t forget that Ibogaine isn’t patented (at least not by
pharmaceutical
companies), so they can’t make any money on it. And, Methadone must be
taken daily, and Ibogaine once or twice in a lifetime… there’s
absolutly
no profit from it!

The bottom line is MONEY!! Pharmaceutical companies must make profits to
keep their owners happy and wealthy. And they (pharmaceutical companies)
run medicine as they wish; they are the ones with money. They push
expensive medicaments to increase their profits. MDs don’t have enough
time
to learn about new medicaments they could use anymore, so salespersons
of
pharmaceutical companies educate them, and they even give them BIG free
samples which can be tried on patients; and these companies invite MDs
to
“study travels” (or whatever you call this in english – In my language
this
could be called a brib.) on their expenses, and MDs supposedly study
there
;-))

There’s another thing you shouldn’t forget: there are very few people
that
have bolls to introduce something new into medicine, especially if they
are
already part of the established system. And MDs don’t listen to non-MDs,
because we don’t belong among them!! Here you shouldn’t forget that ONLY
MDs have licenses to heal people, if anyone else does it it’s against
the
law!!!

I hope that you have enough to think about (for the beginning). You can
find plenty of support data (for what I wrote) all over Internet, and
with
a bit of sane thinking you can draw conclusions of your own.

Hope this answered your question,

Marko

At 11:22 18.5.2002, you wrote:
Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

From: “John Beck” <jbeck@archangel.zzn.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] hard to find this place
Date: May 19, 2002 at 8:11:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wanted to say this is fucking great man! Work of art.

“MindVox Transcendental Enlightenment Temple / Heroin Maintenance Clinic”

Where do I sign up?

Wanted to also say that its hard to find this place! Union Square is
plastered with your logos on everything but you did not add any URL!
Then when I find the site I have to follow 40 links and wind up on
heroin times somewhere to get the info for this list man.

Get your Free E-mail at Archangel Design http://come.to/archangel
____________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE Web and POP E-mail Service in 14 languages at http://www.zzn.com.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 19, 2002 at 6:58:50 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Howard, I used your note in the email for the bwiti photos, linked in
the leftbar at drugwar.com, as this type of thing goes right along with the
overall general message I am trying to portray about the wide range of
“drugs’ and uses of the multitude that are out there. I especially like the
references to what many might consider the more archaic, naturalistic,
shamanic, and hate to use the word, as I don’t personally feel it describes
what’s really happening, among the more ‘primitive’, close to nature
cultures.
If you got any other interesting links like this;

Recent Additions to The Ibogaine Dossier (May 19, 2002)
“An expanded collection of photographs of Mitsogo Bwiti initiation rites
from the Gollnhofer Collection are now available. The photographs depict
initiation rites in Gabon Africa during the 1970s. Most likely these scenes
of an orthodox Bwiti sect will never be repeated. Images now take you from
preparation of Tabernanthe iboga through the administration of an antidote.”
So writes Howard S. Lotsof in a recent email.

This is currently the top leftnewsbar link. I think this is very important
for me and my personal mission at drugwar.com that there are so many
different uses for different currently illegal drugs and use, particularly
in the fashion such substance as ibogaine are use, that I am always amenable
to posting similar information. So to anyone else who has links, or
writings, or these type of subject, please feel free to forward to me, I’ll
take a look, and if I feel, using my editorship prerogative, that they are
suitable and “on -topic” to borrow the Madison Ave/ ONDCP Media campaign
terminology, I’d be glad to post it/them.
Thanks, and I look forward to any feedback on this idea. It is not enough
for me to post simple drugwar news, but I feel it also very necessary to
point out the many uses, of all drugs, that are not necessarily drugwar
related, but rather demonstrate the many religious and other reasons for
drug use in all cultures.
Any ideas, or posts, please don’t hesitate to send ’em my way.
I think I’m beginning to repeat myself.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

In a message dated 5/19/02 2:01:55 PM, sandberg@onetel.net.uk writes:

http://www.iboga.org/us/etable_m.htm

Thanks on the site Nick.

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 19, 2002 at 4:42:00 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 5/19/02 2:01:55 PM, sandberg@onetel.net.uk writes:

http://www.iboga.org/us/etable_m.htm

Thanks on the site Nick.

Howard

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 19, 2002 at 3:52:11 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

taking up bandwidth here, but I’d just like to add a “yeah” and another
“yeah” to second these notes Patrick.;-))”/
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: <vector6@space.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times

I am surprised someone as smart as you didn’t notice this obvious
connection with the ufo and the “bugs” arriving. .:vector:. On Sun, 19 May
2002, Gamma wrote > > > > Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted
Green Glowing > > Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in
Florida, why have > > I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until
Just Now… > > They are the products of bionano-technology. these bugs are
actually > mechanicaly engineered biological spy devices, deploying cutting
edge nano-tech > eavesdropping and information gathering devices coupled
with biological cloning > techniques discovered in secret manuscripts
burried 666 feet below the sphinx > in Egypt. > > The “Halo” you saw around
the sun was a diversion tactic as these spys were > released enmasse above
florida as stage one of operation headlight. > > The fact that there was one
anywhere near you means you are currently under > surveilance and should
exit Miami in a vacuum sealed container, preferably > imediately. These bugs
with green headlights discharge parasites which enter > your body thru
mucous membranes and make their way into your cerebral vortex > and transmit
all of your thoughts to the great central database located under a >
mountain in Virginia, known to many as Mt. Weather. > > more info
forthcoming… > > -gamma > > >
__________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? >
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience > http://launch.yahoo.com
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 19, 2002 at 2:57:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I am surprised someone as smart as you didn’t notice this obvious connection with the ufo and the “bugs” arriving. .:vector:. On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gamma wrote > > > > Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted Green Glowing > > Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in Florida, why have > > I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until Just Now… > > They are the products of bionano-technology. these bugs are actually > mechanicaly engineered biological spy devices, deploying cutting edge nano-tech > eavesdropping and information gathering devices coupled with biological cloning > techniques discovered in secret manuscripts burried 666 feet below the sphinx > in Egypt. > > The “Halo” you saw around the sun was a diversion tactic as these spys were > released enmasse above florida as stage one of operation headlight. > > The fact that there was one anywhere near you means you are currently under > surveilance and should exit Miami in a vacuum sealed container, preferably > imediately. These bugs with green headlights discharge parasites which enter > your body thru mucous membranes and make their way into your cerebral vortex > and transmit all of your thoughts to the great central database located under a > mountain in Virginia, known to many as Mt. Weather. > > more info forthcoming… > > -gamma > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience > http://launch.yahoo.com
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 19, 2002 at 1:55:43 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:53 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images

<www.ibogaine.org/whatsnew.html>
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/whatsnew.html>

Recent Additions to The Ibogaine Dossier

An expanded collection of photographs of Mitsogo Bwiti initiation rites
from
the Gollnhofer Collection are now available. The photographs depict
initiation rites in Gabon Africa during the 1970s. Most likely these
scenes
of an orthodox Bwiti sect will never be repeated.  Images now take you
from
preparation of Tabernanthe iboga through the administration of an
antidote.

Any similarity to your initiation Nick?

Howard

Hi Howard, nice to see the images up. A lot of the scenes and characters
look familiar, though during the actual ‘ngoze’ or three-night ceremony I
was too out of it to recall much. People in my initiation seemed to wear
more costumes, though maybe that was just for rehearsals. The images and
writings up at Gerard Sestier’s site, at
http://www.iboga.org/us/etable_m.htm, seemed pretty accurate as I recall.
The extracts from the work of French author Andre Marie, are particularly
helpful for people trying to make sense of the symbolism.

all the best.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference
Date: May 19, 2002 at 1:26:07 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know that it’s all money. For sure methadone is a big industry,
though as you mention it’s the peripherals, not the drug itself, that is
where the spending goes. You’ve also got to remember that, at a deep level,
iboga and opiates are fundamentally opposite concepts. The action of an
opiate is always to diminish awareness, to cause pain to recede and with it
all the feelings and ideas that are bringing pain up. The action of iboga is
the opposite, the drug always seeks to raise awareness to bring painful,
repressed ideas and feelings to light.

I have iboga-esque images come to me where I can see the two – iboga and
opiate – both operating at opposite ends of the daily, diurnal clock, the
iboga pushing the material held in the darkness to light at dawn and the
opiate shovelling it all back again at dusk.

The methadone programme can be justified by many means, it can be a great
stepping stone to drug freedom. It can validly be portrayed in a totally
useful social light. But, at the end of the day, it is still an opiate,
still a drug whose fundamental action is the complete opposite of ibogaine.
And its advocates will therefore be people whose fundamental orientation,
beneath the shared veneer of opposing heroin addiction, is quite antithetic
to ibogaine.

Personally, I really wouldn’t bother getting into long debates or arguments
with the methadone pushing fraternity. I doubt many will ever root for
ibogaine in a meaningful way because they will have a core orientation
antithetical to the whole iboga concept, (and this same orientation will
mean they will be opposed to appreciating this). At the end of the day, I
figure you gotta expect hassle from anyone who is, for whatever reason,
pushing an opiate. Maybe I’m being too harsh.

Nick

PS – Great to hear how Hattie’s vomitting experience worked out. A great
example for us all.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference

Hi Carrie,

I’ll tell you why Methadone people don’t like (to put it mildly) Ibogaine:

In my country there are a bit over 2 million people (less than a modest
city in your country, I guess), and we spend over 10 million US$ per year
for Methadone program. This is not for Methadone alone, you have to add
salary for doctors and nurses and cleaners, and rents, and all other
expenses connected to this buissiness. How much money would that be in
Germany or USA?

Then there’s that Methadone is proven to do whatever it does, and doctors
don’t have any trouble at work; they know exactly how things are running.
With Ibogaine (being “dirty drug”) you never know how a “patient” will
respond.

And Ibogaine conferences are not so often and in so many beautiful places
of the world as Methadone conferences are!

Don’t forget that Ibogaine isn’t patented (at least not by pharmaceutical
companies), so they can’t make any money on it. And, Methadone must be
taken daily, and Ibogaine once or twice in a lifetime… there’s absolutly
no profit from it!

The bottom line is MONEY!! Pharmaceutical companies must make profits to
keep their owners happy and wealthy. And they (pharmaceutical companies)
run medicine as they wish; they are the ones with money. They push
expensive medicaments to increase their profits. MDs don’t have enough
time
to learn about new medicaments they could use anymore, so salespersons of
pharmaceutical companies educate them, and they even give them BIG free
samples which can be tried on patients; and these companies invite MDs to
“study travels” (or whatever you call this in english – In my language
this
could be called a brib.) on their expenses, and MDs supposedly study there
;-))

There’s another thing you shouldn’t forget: there are very few people that
have bolls to introduce something new into medicine, especially if they
are
already part of the established system. And MDs don’t listen to non-MDs,
because we don’t belong among them!! Here you shouldn’t forget that ONLY
MDs have licenses to heal people, if anyone else does it it’s against the
law!!!

I hope that you have enough to think about (for the beginning). You can
find plenty of support data (for what I wrote) all over Internet, and with
a bit of sane thinking you can draw conclusions of your own.

Hope this answered your question,

Marko

At 11:22 18.5.2002, you wrote:
Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

From: Florian <indigo@13th-floor.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 19, 2002 at 1:35:55 PM EDT
To: vox@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

when i was nineteen the neighborhood i lived in was caught up i na swarm
of really odd bugs. they were black, made entirely of angles and planes
(not a single curve) so they loocked like robots, and all the joinst where
the planes came together were red lines. they completely covered my
appartment building, and on my way to the village center we’d have to walk
through clouds of these things, nebulous fuckfests more like…we called
em appocalypse bugs… maybe they’re different in florida than they are in
maryland…

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

»»»[Probably this is not the IDEAL place to ponder this question, but really,
»»»[who cares…  There APPEAR to be a variety of people here who are
»»»[physically located in Florida — wherever they may spend most of their
»»»[time, Inside the Mind…
»»»[
»»»[And…  See, I’m leaving — the office — which is a process that can
»»»[sometimes take hours, days, years it seems, as a Variety of Things that
»»»[Require my Immediate Attention, rise before me, barring my exit…
»»»[
»»»[So while standing outside smoking a cigarette, I have experienced a
»»»[First…  While not as interesting as the semi-visible UFO which hovered
»»»[over Miami on Friday — Ha, is anyone really going to believe those
»»»[Blatant Lies about some sort of atmospheric phenomena?  Where was I, oh
»»»[yes, leaving the office, but see, as I was doing that, or smoking in
»»»[between sessions of getting ready to do that…
»»»[
»»»[There’s THIS BUG … crawling up the wall…  It looks like a fat
»»»[cockroach, except it has headlights…  Now, I mean, I realize that
»»»[whatever it thinks it’s doing is prolly incredibly attractive and
»»»[irresistable to bugs of the opposite sex, or Scary to its’ enemies, or a
»»»[homing signal contacting Other Bugs with Headlights in other dimensions,
»»»[but…  What the fuck IS IT?  I’ve been around the world, I’ve seen some
»»»[things, slept in dumpsters, got high with Kings, <wham> woops, the
»»»[soundtrack inside my mind is very loud this evening, but still, I
»»»[wonder…
»»»[
»»»[Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted Green Glowing
»»»[Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in Florida, why have
»»»[I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until Just Now…
»»»[
»»»[Thanks in advance for all misinformation,
»»»[
»»»[Patrick
»»»[

\\!//
`8′
/T\
‘O^0`
\|/
IoI

|florian m?|

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 19, 2002 at 12:46:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted Green Glowing
Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in Florida, why have
I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until Just Now…

They are the products of bionano-technology. these bugs are actually
mechanicaly engineered biological spy devices, deploying cutting edge nano-tech
eavesdropping and information gathering devices coupled with biological cloning
techniques discovered in secret manuscripts burried 666 feet below the sphinx
in Egypt.

The “Halo” you saw around the sun was a diversion tactic as these spys were
released enmasse above florida as stage one of operation headlight.

The fact that there was one anywhere near you means you are currently under
surveilance and should exit Miami in a vacuum sealed container, preferably
imediately. These bugs with green headlights discharge parasites which enter
your body thru mucous membranes and make their way into your cerebral vortex
and transmit all of your thoughts to the great central database located under a
mountain in Virginia, known to many as Mt. Weather.

more info forthcoming…

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine
Date: May 19, 2002 at 5:10:43 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I read your reply to Carrie and I read Marko’s about
methadone being a big business. I don’t disagree
either way, what I wouldn’t understand either is what
it has to do with harm reduction. Or does it have more
to do with who is sponsering whatever the event is?

I didn’t know harm reduction was selling anything, why
care who does methadone or whether ibogaine will make
anyone a lot of money.

Carla B

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
We would love to get some
seeds or clones of Iboga as well. Do you have
a good supplier? Would
you mind putting us in touch with them? We
would love to make
Ibogaine available to people here in
Vancouver. There seems to be a
real interest!

It would be difficult to grow iboga in Vancouver.

Comments should be addressed to “Boje Renee”
<evesmagicgarden@hotmail.com>

a very interesting person who is a refugee from the
U.S. married to
Chris Bennet, who wrote an interesting book
debunking the Bible with
a lot of stuff on entheogens.  I don’t know that
they understand that
you can’t just sell iboga, that you have to supply a
guide or
experienced caretaker with every dose.

But this is a positive development, since I
personally have received
calls from addicts in Vancouver and the N.W. U.S.
desparate for
treatment, and heretofore have not been able to get
anyone interested
in actually doing a clinic there.

Well…there was a little interest on the part of
one person
connected to Hilary Black’s Compassion Club, but she
wanted to have
it done by another group, a Wellness Centre, that I
could never
actually get thru to.

Maybe just having some people there on the group
will  make a difference.

Dana/cnw

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 19, 2002 at 5:06:54 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The bug with glowing green headlights means you’ve done too much lsd and should have stopped years ago.
Carla B
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Probably this is not the IDEAL place to ponder this question, but really,
who cares… There APPEAR to be a variety of people here who are
physically located in Florida — wherever they may spend most of their
time, Inside the Mind…

And… See, I’m leaving — the office — which is a process that can
sometimes take hours, days, years it seems, as a Variety of Things that
Require my Immediate Attention, rise before me, barring my exit…

So while standing outside smoking a cigarette, I have experienced a
First… While not as interesting as the semi-visible UFO which hovered
over Miami on Friday — Ha, is anyone really going to believe those
Blatant Lies about some sort of atmospheric phenomena? Where was I, oh
yes, leaving the office, but see, as I was doing that, or smoking in
between sessions of getting ready to do that…

There’s THIS BUG … crawling up the wall… It looks like a fat
cockroach, except it has headlights… Now, I mean, I realize that
whatever it thinks it’s doing is prolly incredibly attractive and
irresistable to bugs of the opposite sex, or Scary to its’ enemies, or a
homing signal contacting Other Bugs with Headlights in other dimensions,
but… What the fuck IS IT? I’ve been around the world, I’ve seen some
things, slept in dumpsters, got high with Kings, woops, the
soundtrack inside my mind is very loud this evening, but still, I
wonder…

Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted Green Glowing
Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in Florida, why have
I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until Just Now…

Thanks in advance for all misinformation,

Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Signs of the End Times
Date: May 19, 2002 at 12:53:51 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Probably this is not the IDEAL place to ponder this question, but really,
who cares…  There APPEAR to be a variety of people here who are
physically located in Florida — wherever they may spend most of their
time, Inside the Mind…

And…  See, I’m leaving — the office — which is a process that can
sometimes take hours, days, years it seems, as a Variety of Things that
Require my Immediate Attention, rise before me, barring my exit…

So while standing outside smoking a cigarette, I have experienced a
First…  While not as interesting as the semi-visible UFO which hovered
over Miami on Friday — Ha, is anyone really going to believe those
Blatant Lies about some sort of atmospheric phenomena?  Where was I, oh
yes, leaving the office, but see, as I was doing that, or smoking in
between sessions of getting ready to do that…

There’s THIS BUG … crawling up the wall…  It looks like a fat
cockroach, except it has headlights…  Now, I mean, I realize that
whatever it thinks it’s doing is prolly incredibly attractive and
irresistable to bugs of the opposite sex, or Scary to its’ enemies, or a
homing signal contacting Other Bugs with Headlights in other dimensions,
but…  What the fuck IS IT?  I’ve been around the world, I’ve seen some
things, slept in dumpsters, got high with Kings, <wham> woops, the
soundtrack inside my mind is very loud this evening, but still, I
wonder…

Wuz’ the deal with bugs that Evolution has granted Green Glowing
Headlights to… What the hell are they, why are they in Florida, why have
I been here over 2 years, and never seen one until Just Now…

Thanks in advance for all misinformation,

Patrick

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference
Date: May 18, 2002 at 5:31:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Carrie,

I’ll tell you why Methadone people don’t like (to put it mildly) Ibogaine:

In my country there are a bit over 2 million people (less than a modest city in your country, I guess), and we spend over 10 million US$ per year for Methadone program. This is not for Methadone alone, you have to add salary for doctors and nurses and cleaners, and rents, and all other expenses connected to this buissiness. How much money would that be in Germany or USA?

Then there’s that Methadone is proven to do whatever it does, and doctors don’t have any trouble at work; they know exactly how things are running. With Ibogaine (being “dirty drug”) you never know how a “patient” will respond.

And Ibogaine conferences are not so often and in so many beautiful places of the world as Methadone conferences are!

Don’t forget that Ibogaine isn’t patented (at least not by pharmaceutical companies), so they can’t make any money on it. And, Methadone must be taken daily, and Ibogaine once or twice in a lifetime… there’s absolutly no profit from it!

The bottom line is MONEY!! Pharmaceutical companies must make profits to keep their owners happy and wealthy. And they (pharmaceutical companies) run medicine as they wish; they are the ones with money. They push expensive medicaments to increase their profits. MDs don’t have enough time to learn about new medicaments they could use anymore, so salespersons of pharmaceutical companies educate them, and they even give them BIG free samples which can be tried on patients; and these companies invite MDs to “study travels” (or whatever you call this in english – In my language this could be called a brib.) on their expenses, and MDs supposedly study there ;-))

There’s another thing you shouldn’t forget: there are very few people that have bolls to introduce something new into medicine, especially if they are already part of the established system. And MDs don’t listen to non-MDs, because we don’t belong among them!! Here you shouldn’t forget that ONLY MDs have licenses to heal people, if anyone else does it it’s against the law!!!

I hope that you have enough to think about (for the beginning). You can find plenty of support data (for what I wrote) all over Internet, and with a bit of sane thinking you can draw conclusions of your own.

Hope this answered your question,

Marko

At 11:22 18.5.2002, you wrote:
Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

-carrie

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference
Cc: clear@harmreduction.org, kra1@nyu.edu,
barlow@eff.org,
ibogaine@mindvox.org
Status:

Ibogaine is a substance derived from the bark of the
root of iboga
tabernanthe, an African rainforest shrub. It is the
principal alkaloid of
twelve active beta-carbolines, and is now available
both as purified
Ibogaine HCl, and in a whole plant extract that
contains all the active
alkaloids.

This presentation traces the discovery and development
of Ibogaine as the
first treatment for polydrug dependency that is
neither a blocker nor a
maintenance drug, but an “addiction interrupter.”
Since the first
verification of addicts’ anecdotal claims of efficacy
in the animal model
the late ’80’s, a number of different neuro-chemical
paradigms have been
advanced to explain the novel mechanism at work.

Previously, in the ’50’s and ’60’s  these were a)
psychoto-mimesis
(Gottlieb, MK-Ultra), b) de-conditioning (Leary,
Alpert), c) reversal of
addiction to a pre-addictive state (Lotsof).

Animal research of the 80’s focused on the dopamine
model–ie, dopamine as
“reward” (Glick, Broderick).
But at the beginning of the ’90’s two diametrically
opposed explanations of
ibogaine mechanism grabbed the limelight– the work of
Gouterel ,
Golnhoffer & Jouvet likening the ibogaine effect to
the deprogramming that
occurs during REM sleep, and the finding of Molliver
and O’Hearn of
high-dose cerebellar neuro-toxicity and their
consequent suggestion that
Ibogaine might be eliminating addicted cells.

In the mid-’90’s  new explanations emerged involving
down-regulation of
tolerance to opiates and supersensitivity to
stimulants at the NMDA
receptor (Poppik, Skolnick), and a serotonergic
long-acting metabolite
(Mash, et al) with weak opioid agonist properties that
would make Ibogaine
much more like a long-acting depo-narcotic.

“The Ibogaine Story” (Beal, DeRienzo) correlated NMDA
regulation of calcium
influx with an underlying anatomy of calceous
microtubules thought
according to the hypothesis of Hameroff et al to
generate consciousness
from coherent photons.  This explained certain quantum
phenomena observed
during Ibogaine experiences while allowing for a
window of neuro-plasticity
that accounted for long-lasting changes observed after
treatment –a notion
that was confirmed by recent work on Ibogaine’s
interior effects in neurons
by Emmanuel Onaivi, who found tell-tale traces
microtubulin-associated
protein.

More recent findings, however, have thrown all of
these explanations in
doubt, starting with revision of the dopamine
hypothesis based on the
findings of Alper, et al–to wit, that dopamine acts
primarily to attach
salience to things in the environment rather than
being pure “reward” that
Ibogaine is somehow downregulating.

Likewise, where Molliver et al cited activation of
glial cells (scavenger
cells) as equivocal evidence of neural damage, Parpura
and Hayden found
that glia signal via glutamate discharge, so that glia
are turned on by any
major glutaminergic event such as the
super-stimulation cerebellum on
Ibogaine.

On the other hand, Conquet, et al found that removal
of the metabotropic
glutamate receptor mGluR5 made it impossible to addict
mice to cocaine,
even though their dopaminergic systems respond to
cocaine as usual.

Finally, development of 18-Methoxycorinaridine by
Glick, et al presents the
paradox of an Ibogaine congener that is effective in
stopping
self-administration of opiates and stimulants in
animals, but is not
particularly active at either serotonin or NMDA
receptors.

In sum, though thousands of people continue to take
Ibogaine to tackle
their addictions, and Ibogaine has given a whole
generation of researchers
new insights into the brainchemistry of addiction, no
one knows exactly how
this stuff works.

NOTE: this presentation is intended to be paired with
one by Patrick
Kroupa, an addict’s eye-view of addiction treatments,
from UROD to
methadone. I am not optimistic that it will be
accepted into the program
for November, because of the usual countervailing
forces affecting anything
having to do with Ibogaine. Your feedback is welcome.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine
Date: May 18, 2002 at 6:09:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: “Boje Renee” <evesmagicgarden@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We would love to get some
seeds or clones of Iboga as well. Do you have a good supplier? Would
you mind putting us in touch with them? We would love to make
Ibogaine available to people here in Vancouver. There seems to be a
real interest!

It would be difficult to grow iboga in Vancouver.

Comments should be addressed to “Boje Renee” <evesmagicgarden@hotmail.com>

a very interesting person who is a refugee from the U.S. married to
Chris Bennet, who wrote an interesting book debunking the Bible with
a lot of stuff on entheogens.  I don’t know that they understand that
you can’t just sell iboga, that you have to supply a guide or
experienced caretaker with every dose.

But this is a positive development, since I personally have received
calls from addicts in Vancouver and the N.W. U.S. desparate for
treatment, and heretofore have not been able to get anyone interested
in actually doing a clinic there.

Well…there was a little interest on the part of one person
connected to Hilary Black’s Compassion Club, but she wanted to have
it done by another group, a Wellness Centre, that I could never
actually get thru to.

Maybe just having some people there on the group will  make a difference.

Dana/cnw

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine
Date: May 18, 2002 at 2:12:36 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We would love to get some
seeds or clones of Iboga as well. Do you have a good supplier? Would
you mind putting us in touch with them? We would love to make
Ibogaine available to people here in Vancouver. There seems to be a
real interest!

It would be difficult to grow iboga in Vancouver.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Mitsogo Bwiti images
Date: May 18, 2002 at 10:53:45 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

<www.ibogaine.org/whatsnew.html>
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/whatsnew.html>

Recent Additions to The Ibogaine Dossier

An expanded collection of photographs of Mitsogo Bwiti initiation rites from
the Gollnhofer Collection are now available. The photographs depict
initiation rites in Gabon Africa during the 1970s. Most likely these scenes
of an orthodox Bwiti sect will never be repeated.  Images now take you from
preparation of Tabernanthe iboga through the administration of an antidote.

Any similarity to your initiation Nick?

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] re: vomiting blood
Date: May 18, 2002 at 10:52:21 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 5/18/02 7:59:11 AM, epoptica@freeuk.com writes:
<snip>
I am still monitoring him and have suggested he go to the doctor when he
is feeling more together just to check everything out. Hopefully he will go.
What this experience has taught me is that I will from now on have a doctor
I can call and ask advice and one that will help in an emergency.

I hope this info is helpful for others doing this work. More often than
not it is smooth riding, but every so often something like this comes up ad
one realises quite what a responsibility this is – especially doing it
without
a support team. If there is anyone in the UK or europe who would be
interested
in helping me, share shifts and being there as support, please get in touch.
<snip>

Hi Hattie,

It is amazing how fast reality creeps up on you when you face adverse events.
Good thinking on your part.

Increased safety by ibogaine providers for ibogaine patients appears to be a
matter that will only be driven by an understanding that adverse events do
occur during ibogaine therapy as they do in all areas of medicine whether
western, eastern or traditional african.

Howard

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference
Date: May 18, 2002 at 1:27:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

-carrie

Oddly enough, I just discussed this with Romel Washington yesterday.

The last time it came up, at a harm reduction conference in Oakland,
out of 3 people scheduled to present on Ibogaine (who were told they
would have their own panel), only Geerte Frenke was allowed to speak,
and for just 15 minutes, due to overwhelming jeers and catcalls from
the methadone bloc, who mostly walked out as she gave her truncated
presentation.

Lots of people have lots of theories as to why this is so, but there
is no doubt that a lot of people in the methadone camp flip out when
Ibogaine is brought up. Look at Ann Ardolino.

Dana/cnw

From: Jack Honeycutt <jhoneycutt@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Which Vancouver?
Date: May 18, 2002 at 10:25:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 11:11 PM 5/17/2002 -0700, you wrote:

I am opening up a Smart Shop in Vancouver next month

Is this Vancouver Canada?

jack

I’m down river from you in Portland Oregon.  Don’t forget to post a message when the shop is open and give us your address.

your friends in the Pacific North West….

jack in Portland Oregon

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] re: vomiting blood
Date: May 18, 2002 at 8:36:22 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 5/18/02 11:39 AM, Nick Sandberg at sandberg@onetel.net.uk wrote:

OK, just so that everyone knows whats going on here I will debrief those who
have been kind enough to offer their support.
I decided after much deliberation and discussions with a number of both
laypersons involved and doctors not to take him to hospital. After talking
to Nick I made up my mind to go, but then got on the phone the NHS help line
(National Health Service), who said try and take him to the doctors if he
really doesn’t want to go to hospital. So I rung my local doctor and surgery
and he very kindly talked me through what could be happening. By this stage
the guy hadn’t puked any more blood for about 9-10 hours ad had had only
clean vomit.
The doctor seemed convinced that this was a good sign, that if there was any
internal bleeding he would still be vomiting as the body has to reject it.
He also said that bright red, or blood clots were the worrying signs. So I
said well the last vomit at about 6am had had dark brown blood clots in it.
He said that had I rung then he would have said go to hospital, but the fact
that there had been no more most probably meant that the bleeding had
healed. He assured me that there seemed no imminent danger from everything I
had described and gave me his emergency number adn said he would come out on
call at any time of the night. I was very lucky to have such an
understanding and helpful doctor. Due to this phone call and another doctor
I rung who said the same thing I decided to leave him at home ad sat with
him through another night. I was sure to keep him well hydrated, making sure
that he was urinating and checking all vital signs constantly.
He now seems in a relatively stable state. He is still sweating mildly and
complaining of mild leg cramps and doesn’t seem to remember much of the
actual trip, but says he has no cravings.

I am still monitoring him and have suggested he go to the doctor when he is
feeling more together just to check everything out. Hopefully he will go.
What this experience has taught me is that I will from now on have a doctor
I can call and ask advice and one that will help in an emergency.

I hope this info is helpful for others doing this work. More often than not
it is smooth riding, but every so often something like this comes up ad one
realises quite what a responsibility this is – especially doing it without a
support team. If there is anyone in the UK or europe who would be interested
in helping me, share shifts and being there as support, please get in touch.

Thanks everyone

Hattie
Think I’ve deleted the post but personally I’d have to disagree with the
idea of taking no action.

If I were doing the treatment I’d be thinking, basically, here I have
someone vomiting significant blood, yet telling me he’s feeling fine –
someone whose mind is saying one thing yet whose body is saying something
quite different.

On one hand, my main issue, personally, would be – do I really want to drag
this unwilling addict down to the local A&E unit and tell a load of people
in white coats what I’ve been doing? I’d be fearful of a load of judgment
from people who know a great deal more than me about medicine? I’d be
worried of exposing what I’m up to to the authorities. I’d be thinking –
basically the chance of this guy dying is pretty miniscule and he says he
feeling fine, so why bother? Besides – how is it going to help him to have
the “iboga experience” if he’s sitting in an A&E ward waiting in line beside
a load of Sat night casualties waiting to have someone check him out?

On the other hand, this guy’s body is saying – I want to be checked out,
something is going on here. And I also know that to offer someone treatment,
on a professional basis, without formal medical qualifications, means I have
to be prepared to do something like drag this guy down the hospital, even
when he doesn’t want to go. And that I couldn’t realistically be criticized
for doing something like this, I’d be doing precisely what any concerned
individual would do. I’d also be worried that, if I don’t take him, for
whatever reason, I could get into a habit of doing things like this and that
one day I could regret walking down this road big time. Then there would be
the biggie – What if this guy did actually die, and I could have done
something about it? Do I really need something like this to happen in my
life?

Just a few random thoughts, without prejudice (because it’s very easy for me
to pontificate when I’m not in this situation), plus remembering that the
Bwiti “Christ” is Michael, archangel of Temperance, he who tests us in our
lives us, to find out what’s really going on inside of us. Don’t know how
much of a test I’d pass myself.

Nick

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 18, 2002 at 6:20:37 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OMG are the two of you grumpy old men!

South Florida is a fun and wonderful place!

-carrie

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

Miami is the one major city in N. America that
I’ve

Miami is an island off of South America in the
Banana
Republic of Dade County.

never been to, because
everyone I know who knows me and has been there
has
basically told me that
“if you had a personal Hell, that’d be it.”

No, more like pergetory. It is a cultural wasteland.

Supposedly more silicone than

Yup.

a Mattel factory, tons of beautiful women

Yup.

if you’ve
got a Rolex (even your

That too BUT there are lots of other women that are
not like that. Lets just say that the problem of too
many can come up if you are halfway good looking,
under 70, not gay and have an IQ of over 90 – which
excludes about 90% of the men in Florida.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction Conference
Date: May 18, 2002 at 5:22:35 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Who exactly wants to ban ibogaine or not promote it
because they prefer methadone? You’ve said this
before, how does this effect presenting about ibogaine
at harm reduction conferences or workshops? Isn’t harm
reduction about presenting all options?

-carrie

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Ibogaine abstract for Seattle Harm Reduction
Conference
Cc: clear@harmreduction.org, kra1@nyu.edu,
barlow@eff.org,
ibogaine@mindvox.org
Status:

Ibogaine is a substance derived from the bark of the
root of iboga
tabernanthe, an African rainforest shrub. It is the
principal alkaloid of
twelve active beta-carbolines, and is now available
both as purified
Ibogaine HCl, and in a whole plant extract that
contains all the active
alkaloids.

This presentation traces the discovery and development
of Ibogaine as the
first treatment for polydrug dependency that is
neither a blocker nor a
maintenance drug, but an “addiction interrupter.”
Since the first
verification of addicts’ anecdotal claims of efficacy
in the animal model
the late ’80’s, a number of different neuro-chemical
paradigms have been
advanced to explain the novel mechanism at work.

Previously, in the ’50’s and ’60’s  these were a)
psychoto-mimesis
(Gottlieb, MK-Ultra), b) de-conditioning (Leary,
Alpert), c) reversal of
addiction to a pre-addictive state (Lotsof).

Animal research of the 80’s focused on the dopamine
model–ie, dopamine as
“reward” (Glick, Broderick).
But at the beginning of the ’90’s two diametrically
opposed explanations of
ibogaine mechanism grabbed the limelight– the work of
Gouterel ,
Golnhoffer & Jouvet likening the ibogaine effect to
the deprogramming that
occurs during REM sleep, and the finding of Molliver
and O’Hearn of
high-dose cerebellar neuro-toxicity and their
consequent suggestion that
Ibogaine might be eliminating addicted cells.

In the mid-’90’s  new explanations emerged involving
down-regulation of
tolerance to opiates and supersensitivity to
stimulants at the NMDA
receptor (Poppik, Skolnick), and a serotonergic
long-acting metabolite
(Mash, et al) with weak opioid agonist properties that
would make Ibogaine
much more like a long-acting depo-narcotic.

“The Ibogaine Story” (Beal, DeRienzo) correlated NMDA
regulation of calcium
influx with an underlying anatomy of calceous
microtubules thought
according to the hypothesis of Hameroff et al to
generate consciousness
from coherent photons.  This explained certain quantum
phenomena observed
during Ibogaine experiences while allowing for a
window of neuro-plasticity
that accounted for long-lasting changes observed after
treatment –a notion
that was confirmed by recent work on Ibogaine’s
interior effects in neurons
by Emmanuel Onaivi, who found tell-tale traces
microtubulin-associated
protein.

More recent findings, however, have thrown all of
these explanations in
doubt, starting with revision of the dopamine
hypothesis based on the
findings of Alper, et al–to wit, that dopamine acts
primarily to attach
salience to things in the environment rather than
being pure “reward” that
Ibogaine is somehow downregulating.

Likewise, where Molliver et al cited activation of
glial cells (scavenger
cells) as equivocal evidence of neural damage, Parpura
and Hayden found
that glia signal via glutamate discharge, so that glia
are turned on by any
major glutaminergic event such as the
super-stimulation cerebellum on
Ibogaine.

On the other hand, Conquet, et al found that removal
of the metabotropic
glutamate receptor mGluR5 made it impossible to addict
mice to cocaine,
even though their dopaminergic systems respond to
cocaine as usual.

Finally, development of 18-Methoxycorinaridine by
Glick, et al presents the
paradox of an Ibogaine congener that is effective in
stopping
self-administration of opiates and stimulants in
animals, but is not
particularly active at either serotonin or NMDA
receptors.

In sum, though thousands of people continue to take
Ibogaine to tackle
their addictions, and Ibogaine has given a whole
generation of researchers
new insights into the brainchemistry of addiction, no
one knows exactly how
this stuff works.

NOTE: this presentation is intended to be paired with
one by Patrick
Kroupa, an addict’s eye-view of addiction treatments,
from UROD to
methadone. I am not optimistic that it will be
accepted into the program
for November, because of the usual countervailing
forces affecting anything
having to do with Ibogaine. Your feedback is welcome.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 18, 2002 at 2:13:51 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks, very interesting.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: <vector6@space.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/3284810.htm It’s armageddon or some
impressive ice halo 30,000 feet in the air. .:vector:. On Fri, 17 May 2002,
“preston peet” wrote > > ok, I’ll bite, what’s this about something floating
in front of the sun? > That’s twice now. > Peace, > Preston > —– Original
Message —– > From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” > To: > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002
3:31 PM > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan
House > > > > On [Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:18:44PM -0600], [JONATHAN R.
ARMSTRONG] wrote: > > > > | Miami is the one major city in N. America that
I’ve never been to,
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 17, 2002 at 11:13:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

Plus, also, right now, there’s this THING hovering in front of the sun
here.

its the Nefilium, come to harvest their crop. us.

-g

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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Which Vancouver?
Date: May 18, 2002 at 2:11:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 07:27 PM 5/17/2002 -0700, you wrote:

I am opening up a Smart Shop in Vancouver next month

Is this Vancouver Canada?

jack

Yup.

dana

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] re: vomiting blood
Date: May 17, 2002 at 11:04:36 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick,

That’s a very fine analysis.  If everything just goes to hell in terms of
medical adverse events there is only one thing to do and that is call
emergency medical assistance.  The problem is for non-medical ibogaine
providers to know when that crisis has occurred.  Whether such a crisis has
or has not occurred, if you perceive it to have occurred you are required to
act.  However, planning can incorporate an intermediary step as long as the
medical event/emergency provides some response time and that is to have a
medical doctor who has previously agreed to be on call to come and
immediately examine the patient and then make an informed medical decision
and institute that decision,

Treating chemically dependent physically compromised patients is not without
risk and certainly a medical doctor adjunct to the procedure should be
available for diagnosis and to arrange hospitalization or other care as
required.  Doctors know how to work the system.

Howard

In a message dated 5/17/02 10:33:45 PM, sandberg@onetel.net.uk writes:

Think I’ve deleted the post but personally I’d have to disagree with the
idea of taking no action.

If I were doing the treatment I’d be thinking, basically, here I have
someone vomiting significant blood, yet telling me he’s feeling fine –
someone whose mind is saying one thing yet whose body is saying something
quite different.

On one hand, my main issue, personally, would be – do I really want to
drag this unwilling addict down to the local A&E unit and tell a load of
people
in white coats what I’ve been doing? I’d be fearful of a load of judgment
from people who know a great deal more than me about medicine? I’d be
worried of exposing what I’m up to to the authorities. I’d be thinking
basically the chance of this guy dying is pretty miniscule and he says
he feeling fine, so why bother? Besides – how is it going to help him to have
the “iboga experience” if he’s sitting in an A&E ward waiting in line beside
a load of Sat night casualties waiting to have someone check him out?

On the other hand, this guy’s body is saying – I want to be checked out,
something is going on here. And I also know that to offer someone treatment,
on a professional basis, without formal medical qualifications, means I
have to be prepared to do something like drag this guy down the hospital,
even
when he doesn’t want to go. And that I couldn’t realistically be criticized
for doing something like this, I’d be doing precisely what any concerned
individual would do. I’d also be worried that, if I don’t take him, for
whatever reason, I could get into a habit of doing things like this and
that one day I could regret walking down this road big time. Then there would
be the biggie – What if this guy did actually die, and I could have done
something about it? Do I really need something like this to happen in my
life?

Just a few random thoughts, without prejudice (because it’s very easy for
me to pontificate when I’m not in this situation), plus remembering that the
Bwiti “Christ” is Michael, archangel of Temperance, he who tests us in
our lives us, to find out what’s really going on inside of us. Don’t know how
much of a test I’d pass myself.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] re: vomiting blood
Date: May 18, 2002 at 6:39:02 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Think I’ve deleted the post but personally I’d have to disagree with the
idea of taking no action.

If I were doing the treatment I’d be thinking, basically, here I have
someone vomiting significant blood, yet telling me he’s feeling fine –
someone whose mind is saying one thing yet whose body is saying something
quite different.

On one hand, my main issue, personally, would be – do I really want to drag
this unwilling addict down to the local A&E unit and tell a load of people
in white coats what I’ve been doing? I’d be fearful of a load of judgment
from people who know a great deal more than me about medicine? I’d be
worried of exposing what I’m up to to the authorities. I’d be thinking –
basically the chance of this guy dying is pretty miniscule and he says he
feeling fine, so why bother? Besides – how is it going to help him to have
the “iboga experience” if he’s sitting in an A&E ward waiting in line beside
a load of Sat night casualties waiting to have someone check him out?

On the other hand, this guy’s body is saying – I want to be checked out,
something is going on here. And I also know that to offer someone treatment,
on a professional basis, without formal medical qualifications, means I have
to be prepared to do something like drag this guy down the hospital, even
when he doesn’t want to go. And that I couldn’t realistically be criticized
for doing something like this, I’d be doing precisely what any concerned
individual would do. I’d also be worried that, if I don’t take him, for
whatever reason, I could get into a habit of doing things like this and that
one day I could regret walking down this road big time. Then there would be
the biggie – What if this guy did actually die, and I could have done
something about it? Do I really need something like this to happen in my
life?

Just a few random thoughts, without prejudice (because it’s very easy for me
to pontificate when I’m not in this situation), plus remembering that the
Bwiti “Christ” is Michael, archangel of Temperance, he who tests us in our
lives us, to find out what’s really going on inside of us. Don’t know how
much of a test I’d pass myself.

Nick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] OH LUCY!
Date: May 17, 2002 at 10:06:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

some related drug content but mostly very interesting in terms of recent world
events:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html

__________________________________________________
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LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] nmda receptor poisoining via aspartame
Date: May 17, 2002 at 11:06:49 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “James D. Bowen, MD” <bowendrjim@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [yippies] And now its time to say good bye…for a while!
To: yippies@yahoogroups.com, “HempTalk” *3 <hemp-talk@hemp.net>,
MUTANEX *FutureWorks <mutanex@aloha.net>,
Paul Standford *Restore <restore@crrh.org>
Cc: Dana *Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>,
*Maryjane’s Retreat <maryjanesretreat@yahoogroups.com>,
*MitW <Marijuanaintheworld@yahoogroups.com>,
Alchemind *Society <info@alchemind.org>
Status:

Hemp doesn’t do even a small part the damage that
Aspartame does.
Pervasive Developmental Disorders

Apraxia, lack of ability for speech, is only one of
many Pervasive Developmental Disorders from Aspartame
ingestion. Autism, Low energy obesity, and Childhood
Diabetes are amongst many others.  They are
îpervasiveî because once afflicted, by even one of
them, they pervade every area of your life or being.
You are thereby rendered functionally inadequate in a
manner that invalidates your human capacities in some
remarkable way. They are almost always Mt DNA
deficiency diseases. Aspartame has been on the market
for twenty years. I now frequently encounter these
blighted children whose functional capacities are
usually notably limited.

The most notable disorder in a given case is seldom
present by itself. There are a wide range of Mt DNA
disease states that can and usually do coexist in a
given individual. This Mt DNA, and mitochondrial
damage are passed on to infants via the maternal line.
A mother who has had one child so afflicted because
she ingested Aspartame, is highly likely to ever
after, (Even if she no longer ingests Asp.), to
continue to pass the defective genes (from her Asp
ìfriedî Mt DNA), on to all her future offspring. They
are highly likely to have varied and dissimilar
patterns of pervasive developmental disorders, because
the damage to Mt DNA from Aspartame is usually
extensive, and genetically transmitted in a random
fashion. The massive epidemic of suddenly gray haired
males from Asp use is mute testimony to how
extensively, and universally damaged the Mt DNA in a
given individual quickly becomes if Aspartame is
ingested.

All pervasive disorders are tragic wastes of human
potential. The chemical potential for this kind of
damage was well known to those who fraudulently pushed
Aspartame unto the market, using organized crime
manipulation of our government, because it is just
basic biochemistry inherent to the Asp molecule.
Aspartame is in fact not even sweet, and thus not even
a candidate to be used as a sweetener. It is bitter
and foul flavored. Your body would warn you, if it
were allowed to! They actually secretly stick other
chemicals in with it to provide the sweetness, and
mask out Aspartameís awful taste! Aspartame is present
only for its capacity to poison! The only remedy for
this problem is to immediately have all manufacturing
of Aspartame, and like chemicals shut down all around
the world by whatever means necessary, even should
that involve acts of civil disobedience, AND to have
Donald Rummsfeld, the organized crime godfather who
did this to our children immediately prosecuted as the
mass murderer he is!

Further information about the biochemistry, and
pathophysiology of these problems are in my articles,
posted on www.dorway.com, such as ìSperm Warfareî,
ìPunditry and Palsiesî, ìAspartame murders infantsî,
ìSteato Hepatitisî, Billions of Victimsî, and several
others.
You may choose to independently research these
disorders by researching topics like ìMitochondrial
disordersî, ìMitochondrial diseasesî, ìmethanol: fetal
damageî, ìmethanol:  mitochondrial disordersî
ìmethanol: pervasive developmental dz,.î ì Fetal
alcohol syndromeî, Etc.  As well as many related
topics like formate, (formic acid) and DNA damage,
formaldehyde and DNA damage, etc.
Sincerely, Dr Jim Bowen

From: Jack Honeycutt <jhoneycutt@qwest.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Which Vancouver?
Date: May 17, 2002 at 7:45:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 07:27 PM 5/17/2002 -0700, you wrote:

I am opening up a Smart Shop in Vancouver next month

Is this Vancouver Canada?

jack

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: Ibogaine
Date: May 17, 2002 at 10:27:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Delivered-To: cnw@cures-not-wars.org
X-Originating-IP: [24.69.255.205]
From: “Boje Renee” <evesmagicgarden@hotmail.com>
To: cnw@cures-not-wars.org
Bcc:
Subject: Ibogaine
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:05:08 -0700
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2002 22:05:09.0203 (UTC)
FILETIME=[E8C01230:01C1FDEE]
Status:

Hi Dana,

I am opening up a Smart Shop in Vancouver next month and my partner
and I are planning to carry harm reduction products. We would love
to carry Ibogaine! We are looking for a good connection and have
only found a source in Amsterdam so far. We would love to get some
seeds or clones of Iboga as well. Do you have a good supplier? Would
you mind putting us in touch with them? We would love to make
Ibogaine available to people here in Vancouver. There seems to be a
real interest!

Thanks!
Love,
Renee

_________________________________________________________________
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 17, 2002 at 6:50:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Miami is the one major city in N. America that I’ve

Miami is an island off of South America in the Banana
Republic of Dade County.

never been to, because
everyone I know who knows me and has been there has
basically told me that
“if you had a personal Hell, that’d be it.”

No, more like pergetory. It is a cultural wasteland.

Supposedly more silicone than

Yup.

a Mattel factory, tons of beautiful women

Yup.

if you’ve
got a Rolex (even your

That too BUT there are lots of other women that are
not like that. Lets just say that the problem of too
many can come up if you are halfway good looking,
under 70, not gay and have an IQ of over 90 – which
excludes about 90% of the men in Florida.

Tag won’t get you anything here), weather that would
kill yours truly
who’s most comfortable physically or socially in San
Francisco or Denver,
“Pioneers in Carjacking”, and solidly Republican
suburbs.  (Sounds like my
least favorite place on earth, Los Angeles.)

Exactly, LA, Miami and places like that are not what I
call real cities, SF, Paris, Denver, Boston, NY,
Chicago, those are real cities, the others are
plasterboard.

My co-worker here tells me that the reason
carjackers favored rental cars
and Eurotourists is because so many native Miamians
carry guns in their
cars because the crime is so terrible.

We also carry guns because we can (legally). I had a
permit only because of the strange gun laws. Like if I
happened to drive by a school on my way to the gun
range, well I just comitted a FELONY. With a carry
permit it is legal to be within 1000 feet of a school.
But then a few things happened and I decided I would
feel really stupid if I got shot and didn’t carry – I
am a very good shot.

It doesn’t matter where you are. Some particular group
of people have taken to riding around in vans and
asking girls for directions, then they haul her in and
gang rape her several times and toss her out
somewhere, usually alive  – in GOOD neighborhoods.
There are other stories but yes it is pretty bad here
(I live in Ft. Lauderdale)

Yup, I carry a gun and not only in my car, to the
bathroom! (they do home invasions too, stay there for
days terrorizing people). It is not that I am so
afraid of people (I am not), just that you never know
when and where. IMO, if you are going to carry a gun,
carry it always.

Here in
Denver, I could walk
through the “worst” parts of town without a whole
lot of fear of getting
my ass kicked.

I can do that in Harlem, lower east side of Manhattan,
places most people really shouldn’t be wandering
around – but I am not a tourist in NY.

Is the crime really that bad?  How
does it compare to say,
Chicago or Manhattan?  (I can’t imagine worse crime
than Manhattan, but
whatever.)

It isn’t that it is worse, it is that they are crazy.
This kid in the neighborhood has taken to breaking
into peoples houses and cars, everyone knows him, he
gets caught, goes to jail, comes out, does it again –
and he is just getting started! Here, they will shoot
you, just because they feel like it. A friend with a
liquor store had this guy come in, all ready but he
fingered him (I had just arrived) and stood right next
to him “helping” him in the store (he is 300+lbs). I
didn’t have my gun for some stupid reason, went home
and got it to hang around but by the time I got back,
the kid came back and took a shot (as in BANG and miss
but took out a bottle of Red Label) at my friend
because he was pissed he got fingered and didn’t get
to rob the place. Then ran off real quick because my
buddy had his 38 pointed right at his head. Another
liquor store (GREAT NEIGHBORHOOD) closed down because
of robberies at gun point.

I don’t know if I could ever acclimate
to daily 100% humidity
and 95 degree temperatures.  Here, it seems

I have not in 7 years. Get use to AC.

unbearable if it gets above
80.

It seems as though some of you on this list live
around there, and I would
be curious to see what you think of it.

DON’T DO IT MAN!!!!!

I ask
because if I ever get into
school, my GF has agreed to support me, but needs to

Lots of schools right near me, some are actually good.

live somewhere hot in
exchange for four years of sponging, so I’ll be
looking southward…

off-topically,
j.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Thu, 16 May 2002, Carla Barnes wrote:

I saw this on TV. That’s so so disgusting. What’s
wrong with Miami? Why bother.
Carla B
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Pubdate: Wed, 15 May 2002
Source: New York Post (NY)
Section: Page 6
Website: http://www.nypost.com/
Feedback:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/letters/letters_editor.htm
Address: 1211 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY
10036-8790
Contact: letters@nypost.com
Copyright: 2002 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc.
Author: Richard Johnson with Paula Froelich and
Chris Wilson

POT PARADOX

DIONNE Warwick’s arrest for marijuana over the
weekend struck some
knowledgable types as more than a bit ironic.
“Dionne was the guest of
honor at the Samaritan Village’s benefit awards
dinner last month at the
New York Hilton,” a source recalled. The Village,
a well-known drug rehab
center with live-in communities all over New York,
honored Warwick for her
work in fighting drugs. “What a joke!” the dinner
spy sneered.
– —
MAP posted-by: Beth

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

__________________________________________________
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LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
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From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] drug test
Date: May 17, 2002 at 5:42:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I feel inadequete. I am 79% pure. Much damage left to do yet. .:vector:. On Thu, 16 May 2002, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote > > came in from another list. > > http://www.perilith.com/~coolio/drugpurity.html > > Howard
___________________________________________________________________
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From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 17, 2002 at 5:40:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/3284810.htm It’s armageddon or some impressive ice halo 30,000 feet in the air. .:vector:. On Fri, 17 May 2002, “preston peet” wrote > > ok, I’ll bite, what’s this about something floating in front of the sun? > That’s twice now. > Peace, > Preston > —– Original Message —– > From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” > To: > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:31 PM > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House > > > > On [Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:18:44PM -0600], [JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG] wrote: > > > > | Miami is the one major city in N. America that I’ve never been to,
___________________________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 17, 2002 at 4:24:27 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ok, I’ll bite, what’s this about something floating in front of the sun?
That’s twice now.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House

On [Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:18:44PM -0600], [JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG] wrote:

| Miami is the one major city in N. America that I’ve never been to,
because
| everyone I know who knows me and has been there has basically told me
that
| “if you had a personal Hell, that’d be it.”  Supposedly more silicone
than
| a Mattel factory, tons of beautiful women if you’ve got a Rolex (even
your
| Tag won’t get you anything here), weather that would kill yours truly
| who’s most comfortable physically or socially in San Francisco or
Denver,
| “Pioneers in Carjacking”, and solidly Republican suburbs.  (Sounds like
my
| least favorite place on earth, Los Angeles.)

Uhm…  I was born in LA, grew up in NYC, and I like London and Prague a
lot…  I live in Miami…  I am told it used to be different, but after
Miami Vice EMITTED all those pretty pastel colored visuals of what it
should be like, everybody started believing this to be The Truth, and
things were rebuilt, relit, and re-designed accordingly.  South Beach
looks like a very large Miami Vice set.  Which can be good or bad,
depending on your point of view.

Miami is either really tacky or very pretty and glowy at night, depending
on what sort of mood you’re in.  That “culture” thing doesn’t exist here,
but who needs that anyway.  There’s THE INTERNET!  And Telebishun!

| My co-worker here tells me that the reason carjackers favored rental
cars
| and Eurotourists is because so many native Miamians carry guns in their
| cars because the crime is so terrible.  Here in Denver, I could walk

They carry guns because RAMPANT FASCISM has not overwhelmed Florida in
that regard.  So it’s okay to buy a lot of guns, splurge $50 bucks on a
concealed weapons permit, and then be allowed to legally carry your loaded
gun around with you.  GOD BLESS AMERICA!

On the flipside, every fucking thing related to the most minute possession
of scheduled substances — and being caught with same — is a felony here.
While it’d take you roughly 10 hits in a row, in the space of one very
poor year, to actually land in prison for that in NY; in Miami you can
accomplish that with a few joints, or coupla bags of dope.

I would suspect carjackers favor tourists for the same reason anyone does:
they’re easy targets, prolly have some cash or travellers checks, and
dunno what’s up or where they’re goin’

| through the “worst” parts of town without a whole lot of fear of getting
| my ass kicked.  Is the crime really that bad?  How does it compare to
say,
| Chicago or Manhattan?  (I can’t imagine worse crime than Manhattan, but
| whatever.)  I don’t know if I could ever acclimate to daily 100%
humidity
| and 95 degree temperatures.  Here, it seems unbearable if it gets above
| 80.

This is why that A/C thing exists.  Crime is like, I dunno, never really
noticed.  People don’t bother me.  Except for cops, who will hit the
brakes and go into reverse every time they see a white guy walking through
Overtown.  Overtown is highly unintegrated.  Nothing like it exists in
NYC.  It apparently has a high murder rate.  <shrug>  Go figure.

Miami is just like, whatever.  I don’t actually know anyone who planned to
come here, they all sorta just arrived for one reason or another; kinda
like me.

Patrick

Plus, also, right now, there’s this THING hovering in front of the sun
here.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 17, 2002 at 3:31:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:18:44PM -0600], [JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG] wrote:

| Miami is the one major city in N. America that I’ve never been to, because
| everyone I know who knows me and has been there has basically told me that
| “if you had a personal Hell, that’d be it.”  Supposedly more silicone than
| a Mattel factory, tons of beautiful women if you’ve got a Rolex (even your
| Tag won’t get you anything here), weather that would kill yours truly
| who’s most comfortable physically or socially in San Francisco or Denver,
| “Pioneers in Carjacking”, and solidly Republican suburbs.  (Sounds like my
| least favorite place on earth, Los Angeles.)

Uhm…  I was born in LA, grew up in NYC, and I like London and Prague a
lot…  I live in Miami…  I am told it used to be different, but after
Miami Vice EMITTED all those pretty pastel colored visuals of what it
should be like, everybody started believing this to be The Truth, and
things were rebuilt, relit, and re-designed accordingly.  South Beach
looks like a very large Miami Vice set.  Which can be good or bad,
depending on your point of view.

Miami is either really tacky or very pretty and glowy at night, depending
on what sort of mood you’re in.  That “culture” thing doesn’t exist here,
but who needs that anyway.  There’s THE INTERNET!  And Telebishun!

| My co-worker here tells me that the reason carjackers favored rental cars
| and Eurotourists is because so many native Miamians carry guns in their
| cars because the crime is so terrible.  Here in Denver, I could walk

They carry guns because RAMPANT FASCISM has not overwhelmed Florida in
that regard.  So it’s okay to buy a lot of guns, splurge $50 bucks on a
concealed weapons permit, and then be allowed to legally carry your loaded
gun around with you.  GOD BLESS AMERICA!

On the flipside, every fucking thing related to the most minute possession
of scheduled substances — and being caught with same — is a felony here.
While it’d take you roughly 10 hits in a row, in the space of one very
poor year, to actually land in prison for that in NY; in Miami you can
accomplish that with a few joints, or coupla bags of dope.

I would suspect carjackers favor tourists for the same reason anyone does:
they’re easy targets, prolly have some cash or travellers checks, and
dunno what’s up or where they’re goin’

| through the “worst” parts of town without a whole lot of fear of getting
| my ass kicked.  Is the crime really that bad?  How does it compare to say,
| Chicago or Manhattan?  (I can’t imagine worse crime than Manhattan, but
| whatever.)  I don’t know if I could ever acclimate to daily 100% humidity
| and 95 degree temperatures.  Here, it seems unbearable if it gets above
| 80.

This is why that A/C thing exists.  Crime is like, I dunno, never really
noticed.  People don’t bother me.  Except for cops, who will hit the
brakes and go into reverse every time they see a white guy walking through
Overtown.  Overtown is highly unintegrated.  Nothing like it exists in
NYC.  It apparently has a high murder rate.  <shrug>  Go figure.

Miami is just like, whatever.  I don’t actually know anyone who planned to
come here, they all sorta just arrived for one reason or another; kinda
like me.

Patrick

Plus, also, right now, there’s this THING hovering in front of the sun
here.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] any news sources where to look this up
Date: May 17, 2002 at 3:18:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Fri, May 17, 2002 at 06:50:46PM +0000], [eric seitz] wrote:

| Not on topic very much and I think watching the news will give the answer
| soon I hope. For those in Florida, what is that thing blotting out the sun
| right now?
|
| It looks like a scene from independence day. Large semi opaque semi
| transparent saucer shaped object covering the sun, it is not a eclipse.

Eric,

I remember you said HARSH WORDS to me last year, but I forgive you, since
you appear to be the Only Human Being sending out of hotmail, who has ever
figured out how to successfully click the “send as Text” button.

It is a mothership, with its’ cloaking device failing, thus making it
semi-visible.  However, the side effect is: all those people standing
around in parking lots and street corners, STARING up at it, pointing, and
going, “whut the fuck is that?”  Will have their eyeballs melt within the
next 12 hours.

Enjoy your afternoon,

Patrick

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 17, 2002 at 3:18:44 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Miami is the one major city in N. America that I’ve never been to, because
everyone I know who knows me and has been there has basically told me that
“if you had a personal Hell, that’d be it.”  Supposedly more silicone than
a Mattel factory, tons of beautiful women if you’ve got a Rolex (even your
Tag won’t get you anything here), weather that would kill yours truly
who’s most comfortable physically or socially in San Francisco or Denver,
“Pioneers in Carjacking”, and solidly Republican suburbs.  (Sounds like my
least favorite place on earth, Los Angeles.)

My co-worker here tells me that the reason carjackers favored rental cars
and Eurotourists is because so many native Miamians carry guns in their
cars because the crime is so terrible.  Here in Denver, I could walk
through the “worst” parts of town without a whole lot of fear of getting
my ass kicked.  Is the crime really that bad?  How does it compare to say,
Chicago or Manhattan?  (I can’t imagine worse crime than Manhattan, but
whatever.)  I don’t know if I could ever acclimate to daily 100% humidity
and 95 degree temperatures.  Here, it seems unbearable if it gets above
80.

It seems as though some of you on this list live around there, and I would
be curious to see what you think of it.  I ask because if I ever get into
school, my GF has agreed to support me, but needs to live somewhere hot in
exchange for four years of sponging, so I’ll be looking southward…

off-topically,
j.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Thu, 16 May 2002, Carla Barnes wrote:

I saw this on TV. That’s so so disgusting. What’s wrong with Miami? Why bother.
Carla B
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote: Pubdate: Wed, 15 May 2002
Source: New York Post (NY)
Section: Page 6
Website: http://www.nypost.com/
Feedback: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/letters/letters_editor.htm
Address: 1211 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY 10036-8790
Contact: letters@nypost.com
Copyright: 2002 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc.
Author: Richard Johnson with Paula Froelich and Chris Wilson

POT PARADOX

DIONNE Warwick’s arrest for marijuana over the weekend struck some
knowledgable types as more than a bit ironic. “Dionne was the guest of
honor at the Samaritan Village’s benefit awards dinner last month at the
New York Hilton,” a source recalled. The Village, a well-known drug rehab
center with live-in communities all over New York, honored Warwick for her
work in fighting drugs. “What a joke!” the dinner spy sneered.
– —
MAP posted-by: Beth

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: “eric seitz” <erictseitz@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] any news sources where to look this up
Date: May 17, 2002 at 2:50:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Not on topic very much and I think watching the news will give the answer soon I hope. For those in Florida, what is that thing blotting out the sun right now?

It looks like a scene from independence day. Large semi opaque semi transparent saucer shaped object covering the sun, it is not a eclipse.

-ETS-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: vomiting blood
Date: May 17, 2002 at 1:34:43 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hattie,

IMO a total of a teaspoon of blood (and generally
blood looks like more than what it is), that has
stopped (and some clots after are not bad, no new
blood) is NOT enough reason to take someone on
ibogaine to the hospital. Could it be something, while
I HIGHLY doubt it, sure ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. THe
object of the game is NOT to do more harm in going to
a hospital than the problem. If there is no problem
there sure could be one if you take him to a hospital
while on ibogaine… I have had blood in my vomit, I
have seen others with a bit of blood in vomit (or from
caughing/sneezing/shitting – I even pissed some once
or twice but that was a problem and it HURT). I  have
heard of people with some blood in vomit from ibogaine
(due to vomiting?), vomiting black stuff, diarrhea,
repeated vomiting, nausea, dizzyness, ataxia, chest
palpitations, paralysis (or inability to move),
profound fear, going off to never never land for a
while, “hallucinations”, having out of body
experiences, time travel – any one of which could
cause a trip to the hospital/doctor for some people…
Yes, check the “other end” for black stools, that
would indicate bleeding (unless you gave him
pepto-bismol). You are there, I am not. My advice is
if it looks like an “EMERGENCY”, then take him to the
“EMERGENCY ROOM”, but from your description I don’t
think it is even remotely an “emergency”.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
on 5/17/02 4:49 PM, Brett Calabrese at
bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:

Kind of a relief to hear except the last vomit with
blood in it about 8
hours ago now had clots in, dark red streaks, small
but definately clots. I
thought this was a positive sign as something was
obviously trying to heal.
There has been no bright red blood and like I said
none for actually 10
hours now, but I have had such mixed responses. I
wanted to take him to
hospital but he is adamant and now pretending (i
think) to be asleep. So
there is no communication.

What I want to know is if there is no more blood
externally could something
be going on internally that I should be worried
about and what would be the
signs except serious shock.

Thanks for the help.

Hattie

Hattie,

Vomiting “specs” of blood is nothing, is quite
normal
(heaving can cause it) and not likely an
indication of
something bad. It is bright red that you really
have
to worry about and not just “specs”. If you see
this
(lots of bright red blood or even darker red but a
lot
of it and it will look like “blood” w/wo clots),
GET
THEM TO A HOSPITAL ASAP if not sooner. This will
most
often happen in alcoholics and can be very
dangerous
as in fatal.

Advice, leave it alone, don’t worry, tell him not
to
worry. He can’t eat and would likely vomit up
anything
you gave him anyway or it would likely make him
sick.
If it makes you/him feel better a little ice would
constrict blood vescles and slow/stop bleeding.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
on 5/17/02 3:25 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at
digital@phantom.com wrote:

Hi everyone,

On a more serious note, doing a treatment at the
moment and the guy has been
vomiting blood most of the night. He seems fine,
in
mild withdrawal but says
no extreme pain anywhere, thinks he must have
ruptured a blood vessel in his
throat or something but has anyone had experience
of
this.

The last vomit was blood free but he must have
had
at least ten which had
specks and clots of blood in them. Not that much,
probably at the most a
teaspoon, even only half but definately a
concern.

Any advice.

Of course I have thought about going to hospital
with him but he doesn’t
want to go.

Would appreciate some help as this is the first
time
I have seen anything
like this.

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:14:09PM -0700],
[Gamma] wrote:

| — Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
wrote:
| > if you love to melt pretty things (or just
things) then you should
| > definitely try
| >
| >
http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html
| >
| > Marko
|
| ahhh yes, now that makes me feel all warm and
fuzzy inside! great fun!
|
| -gamma

Violence Rulz!  YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!  I meant to
say, what pretty graphics.

The actual implementation of this, sorta
blows…
The potential of this,
utterly rocks:

http://www.randommedia.co.uk/

Though “utterly rocks” is not the phrase I’m
thinking of if you lack DSL,
a convenient drop-in replacement would be:
“sucks
beyond belief, god is
this piece of shit slow, what idiot told me to
click this crap?”

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: vomiting blood
Date: May 17, 2002 at 1:29:51 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 5/17/02 4:49 PM, Brett Calabrese at bcalabrese@yahoo.com wrote:

Kind of a relief to hear except the last vomit with blood in it about 8
hours ago now had clots in, dark red streaks, small but definately clots. I
thought this was a positive sign as something was obviously trying to heal.
There has been no bright red blood and like I said none for actually 10
hours now, but I have had such mixed responses. I wanted to take him to
hospital but he is adamant and now pretending (i think) to be asleep. So
there is no communication.

What I want to know is if there is no more blood externally could something
be going on internally that I should be worried about and what would be the
signs except serious shock.

Thanks for the help.

Hattie

Hattie,

Vomiting “specs” of blood is nothing, is quite normal
(heaving can cause it) and not likely an indication of
something bad. It is bright red that you really have
to worry about and not just “specs”. If you see this
(lots of bright red blood or even darker red but a lot
of it and it will look like “blood” w/wo clots), GET
THEM TO A HOSPITAL ASAP if not sooner. This will most
often happen in alcoholics and can be very dangerous
as in fatal.

Advice, leave it alone, don’t worry, tell him not to
worry. He can’t eat and would likely vomit up anything
you gave him anyway or it would likely make him sick.
If it makes you/him feel better a little ice would
constrict blood vescles and slow/stop bleeding.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
on 5/17/02 3:25 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at
digital@phantom.com wrote:

Hi everyone,

On a more serious note, doing a treatment at the
moment and the guy has been
vomiting blood most of the night. He seems fine, in
mild withdrawal but says
no extreme pain anywhere, thinks he must have
ruptured a blood vessel in his
throat or something but has anyone had experience of
this.

The last vomit was blood free but he must have had
at least ten which had
specks and clots of blood in them. Not that much,
probably at the most a
teaspoon, even only half but definately a concern.

Any advice.

Of course I have thought about going to hospital
with him but he doesn’t
want to go.

Would appreciate some help as this is the first time
I have seen anything
like this.

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:14:09PM -0700],
[Gamma] wrote:

| — Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si> wrote:
| > if you love to melt pretty things (or just
things) then you should
| > definitely try
| >
| > http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html
| >
| > Marko
|
| ahhh yes, now that makes me feel all warm and
fuzzy inside! great fun!
|
| -gamma

Violence Rulz!  YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!  I meant to
say, what pretty graphics.

The actual implementation of this, sorta blows…
The potential of this,
utterly rocks:

http://www.randommedia.co.uk/

Though “utterly rocks” is not the phrase I’m
thinking of if you lack DSL,
a convenient drop-in replacement would be: “sucks
beyond belief, god is
this piece of shit slow, what idiot told me to
click this crap?”

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: vomiting blood
Date: May 17, 2002 at 11:49:38 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hattie,

Vomiting “specs” of blood is nothing, is quite normal
(heaving can cause it) and not likely an indication of
something bad. It is bright red that you really have
to worry about and not just “specs”. If you see this
(lots of bright red blood or even darker red but a lot
of it and it will look like “blood” w/wo clots), GET
THEM TO A HOSPITAL ASAP if not sooner. This will most
often happen in alcoholics and can be very dangerous
as in fatal.

Advice, leave it alone, don’t worry, tell him not to
worry. He can’t eat and would likely vomit up anything
you gave him anyway or it would likely make him sick.
If it makes you/him feel better a little ice would
constrict blood vescles and slow/stop bleeding.

Brett

— Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
on 5/17/02 3:25 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at
digital@phantom.com wrote:

Hi everyone,

On a more serious note, doing a treatment at the
moment and the guy has been
vomiting blood most of the night. He seems fine, in
mild withdrawal but says
no extreme pain anywhere, thinks he must have
ruptured a blood vessel in his
throat or something but has anyone had experience of
this.

The last vomit was blood free but he must have had
at least ten which had
specks and clots of blood in them. Not that much,
probably at the most a
teaspoon, even only half but definately a concern.

Any advice.

Of course I have thought about going to hospital
with him but he doesn’t
want to go.

Would appreciate some help as this is the first time
I have seen anything
like this.

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:14:09PM -0700],
[Gamma] wrote:

| — Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si> wrote:
| > if you love to melt pretty things (or just
things) then you should
| > definitely try
| >
| > http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html
| >
| > Marko
|
| ahhh yes, now that makes me feel all warm and
fuzzy inside! great fun!
|
| -gamma

Violence Rulz!  YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!  I meant to
say, what pretty graphics.

The actual implementation of this, sorta blows…
The potential of this,
utterly rocks:

http://www.randommedia.co.uk/

Though “utterly rocks” is not the phrase I’m
thinking of if you lack DSL,
a convenient drop-in replacement would be: “sucks
beyond belief, god is
this piece of shit slow, what idiot told me to
click this crap?”

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc
Date: May 17, 2002 at 9:08:14 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick elucidated: >He’s THIS GUY, who apparently likes to share his
monthly insights and
observations, every two weeks or so.  His problem is
peaking Too Soon.<

To which I reply, LOL. I was beginning to think I was suffering either brain
damage or time warping. Whew, feel much better now. I gotta admit, I enjoy
his bi-weekly monthly notes. Not sure why he is bothering, but some of need
prodding, and other need to prod.;-))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brian Matterson” <brianmatterson@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 09:04:34PM -0400], [preston
peet] wrote:

| wHo is Pinky White?
| Peace,
| Preston

He’s THIS GUY, who apparently likes to share his
monthly insights and
observations, every two weeks or so.  His problem is
peaking Too Soon.

There is however excellent news.  As those of you
who read the other lists
are aware, we were searching for the perfect new
MindVox World HQ.  And
while it was a close call between the abandoned
prisons and former lunatic
asylums…  We have found THE WINNER.  Call me a
hopeless romantic, but it
just has a beautiful vibe…  Some new curtains
maybe, and it’ll be
PERFECT!

http://www.midnightsociety.com/web/Abandoned/Purgatory/purgatory.html

Good choice. Reminds me of the last days of apartments
I’ve lived in right before they finally evicted me.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Henk van Vliet <knehnav@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: vomiting blood
Date: May 17, 2002 at 9:05:15 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

A stomach ulcer might also cause a little blood.
Might also cause more fomitting,
Good to check the feaces: dark/black indicates blood.
Too be shure a check at the hospital is needed.

Henk

Hattie wrote:
on 5/17/02 3:25 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Hi everyone,

On a more serious note, doing a treatment at the moment and the guy has been
vomiting blood most of the night. He seems fine, in mild withdrawal but says
no extreme pain anywhere, thinks he must have ruptured a blood vessel in his
throat or something but has anyone had experience of this.

The last vomit was blood free but he must have had at least ten which had
specks and clots of blood in them. Not that much, probably at the most a
teaspoon, even only half but definately a concern.

Any advice.

Of course I have thought about going to hospital with him but he doesn’t
want to go.

Would appreciate some help as this is the first time I have seen anything
like this.

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:14:09PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| — Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si> wrote:
| > if you love to melt pretty things (or just things) then you should
| > definitely try
| >
| > http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html
| >
| > Marko
|
| ahhh yes, now that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside! great fun!
|
| -gamma

Violence Rulz! YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!! I meant to say, what pretty graphics.

The actual implementation of this, sorta blows… The potential of this,
utterly rocks:

http://www.randommedia.co.uk/

Though “utterly rocks” is not the phrase I’m thinking of if you lack DSL,
a convenient dr
op-in replacement would be: “sucks beyond belief, god is
this piece of shit slow, what idiot told me to click this crap?”

Patrick


http://www.xs4all.nl/~knehnav/

From: “Dr. Bruno Daniel Rasmussen Chaves” <daniras@argon.com.br>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: vomiting blood
Date: May 17, 2002 at 8:09:17 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As a gastroenterologist and experienced with treatment with ibogaine, I
would suggest that you go with him to a hospital and perform a upper
endoscopy to see where is the bleeding source, probably esophagus.

Bruno

Dr. Bruno Daniel Rasmussen Chaves, M.D.

bruno@rasmussen.org
daniras@argon.com.br

www.argon.com.br/usuarios/dr.Bruno

—– Original Message —–
From: “Hattie” <epoptica@freeuk.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 6:42 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: vomiting blood

on 5/17/02 3:25 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Hi everyone,

On a more serious note, doing a treatment at the moment and the guy has
been
vomiting blood most of the night. He seems fine, in mild withdrawal but
says
no extreme pain anywhere, thinks he must have ruptured a blood vessel in
his
throat or something but has anyone had experience of this.

The last vomit was blood free but he must have had at least ten which had
specks and clots of blood in them. Not that much, probably at the most a
teaspoon, even only half but definately a concern.

Any advice.

Of course I have thought about going to hospital with him but he doesn’t
want to go.

Would appreciate some help as this is the first time I have seen anything
like this.

************************************************************************
* Tracking #: D0D4A6672E2E4E4EB7DE3047FA8BF518610AF9B0
*
************************************************************************

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: vomiting blood
Date: May 17, 2002 at 5:42:47 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 5/17/02 3:25 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Hi everyone,

On a more serious note, doing a treatment at the moment and the guy has been
vomiting blood most of the night. He seems fine, in mild withdrawal but says
no extreme pain anywhere, thinks he must have ruptured a blood vessel in his
throat or something but has anyone had experience of this.

The last vomit was blood free but he must have had at least ten which had
specks and clots of blood in them. Not that much, probably at the most a
teaspoon, even only half but definately a concern.

Any advice.

Of course I have thought about going to hospital with him but he doesn’t
want to go.

Would appreciate some help as this is the first time I have seen anything
like this.

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:14:09PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| — Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si> wrote:
| > if you love to melt pretty things (or just things) then you should
| > definitely try
| >
| > http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html
| >
| > Marko
|
| ahhh yes, now that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside! great fun!
|
| -gamma

Violence Rulz!  YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!  I meant to say, what pretty graphics.

The actual implementation of this, sorta blows…  The potential of this,
utterly rocks:

http://www.randommedia.co.uk/

Though “utterly rocks” is not the phrase I’m thinking of if you lack DSL,
a convenient drop-in replacement would be: “sucks beyond belief, god is
this piece of shit slow, what idiot told me to click this crap?”

Patrick

From: Brian Matterson <brianmatterson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc
Date: May 17, 2002 at 12:05:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 09:04:34PM -0400], [preston
peet] wrote:

| wHo is Pinky White?
| Peace,
| Preston

He’s THIS GUY, who apparently likes to share his
monthly insights and
observations, every two weeks or so.  His problem is
peaking Too Soon.

There is however excellent news.  As those of you
who read the other lists
are aware, we were searching for the perfect new
MindVox World HQ.  And
while it was a close call between the abandoned
prisons and former lunatic
asylums…  We have found THE WINNER.  Call me a
hopeless romantic, but it
just has a beautiful vibe…  Some new curtains
maybe, and it’ll be
PERFECT!

http://www.midnightsociety.com/web/Abandoned/Purgatory/purgatory.html

Good choice. Reminds me of the last days of apartments
I’ve lived in right before they finally evicted me.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:53:16 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:

Depeche Mode, Violator
Carla B

for all the bliss-ninnies out there:

run out and buy OM MANI PADME HUM by master charles.

“synchronicity contemporary meditation soundtracks encompass subtle
considerations of meter, tonation, reverbation and harmonics which act as a
tuning fork to decelerate brain wave frequencies. This precise and efficient
technology (called Holodynamics) enhances balancing of the left and right brain
hemispheres to deliver deep, equlibrating meditation with far less time and
effort than traditional techniques.”

in other words, pop the disc in, put on the headphones and become a zen master
from the comfort of your sofa.

Its actually quite ripping, and my brain is feeling balanced. The perfect
antidote for Red Bull.

with transcendental drool descending from chin…
-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] drug test
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:47:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

came in from another list.

http://www.perilith.com/~coolio/drugpurity.html

Howard

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:25:49 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:14:09PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| — Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si> wrote:
| > if you love to melt pretty things (or just things) then you should
| > definitely try
| >
| > http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html
| >
| > Marko
|
| ahhh yes, now that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside! great fun!
|
| -gamma

Violence Rulz!  YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!  I meant to say, what pretty graphics.

The actual implementation of this, sorta blows…  The potential of this,
utterly rocks:

http://www.randommedia.co.uk/

Though “utterly rocks” is not the phrase I’m thinking of if you lack DSL,
a convenient drop-in replacement would be: “sucks beyond belief, god is
this piece of shit slow, what idiot told me to click this crap?”

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:14:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 09:04:34PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| wHo is Pinky White?
| Peace,
| Preston

He’s THIS GUY, who apparently likes to share his monthly insights and
observations, every two weeks or so.  His problem is peaking Too Soon.

There is however excellent news.  As those of you who read the other lists
are aware, we were searching for the perfect new MindVox World HQ.  And
while it was a close call between the abandoned prisons and former lunatic
asylums…  We have found THE WINNER.  Call me a hopeless romantic, but it
just has a beautiful vibe…  Some new curtains maybe, and it’ll be
PERFECT!

http://www.midnightsociety.com/web/Abandoned/Purgatory/purgatory.html

Thanks to the advice of Mr. Zappa, we even have a new Receptionist,
Spiritual Reintegration Specialist / Helpful Guide Type Being / Coffee
Getting Person in mind:

http://www.midnightsociety.com/web/Legends/Amanda/amanda.html

This is gonna be so great, I can Just Feel It Throb, and it’s all for you.

Woo hoo,

Patrick

– – – – – – – – –

| —– Original Message —–
| From: “Pinky White” <uselessaccount25@yahoo.com>

| > I know 30 days have not passed but I’m ahead of
| > schedule with my monthly insights.

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc
Date: May 17, 2002 at 1:11:01 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wHo is Pinky White?
Peace,
Preston

call me back re tomorrow’s mtg.

d

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 16, 2002 at 9:29:29 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I saw this on TV. That’s so so disgusting. What’s wrong with Miami? Why bother.
Carla B
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Pubdate: Wed, 15 May 2002
Source: New York Post (NY)
Section: Page 6
Website: http://www.nypost.com/
Feedback: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/letters/letters_editor.htm
Address: 1211 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY 10036-8790
Contact: letters@nypost.com
Copyright: 2002 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc.
Author: Richard Johnson with Paula Froelich and Chris Wilson

POT PARADOX

DIONNE Warwick’s arrest for marijuana over the weekend struck some
knowledgable types as more than a bit ironic. “Dionne was the guest of
honor at the Samaritan Village’s benefit awards dinner last month at the
New York Hilton,” a source recalled. The Village, a well-known drug rehab
center with live-in communities all over New York, honored Warwick for her
work in fighting drugs. “What a joke!” the dinner spy sneered.
– —
MAP posted-by: Beth
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 9:26:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Depeche Mode, Violator
Carla B
Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Hey good question Carrie!

And yes, I really do listen to different stuff off of heroin; rarely listen to Rock n Roll Animal/Lou R, often listen to Van the man cos hs just inspires me IF makes me cry sometimes too! (but
y’know without smack, we just gotta let those tears out..)

Also listen to SOME Gospel Miusic, cos itr’s so uplifting. What/Who else? Moby, Janis (I know she’s dead but she’s also irresistable sometimes!) and many others. Depends what mood I’m in

%&^%^」”??!!!!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Carrie Rollins [mailto:carrierollins@yahoo.com]
Sent: 15 May 2002 05:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] changes in music

Don’t beat up on Patrick, he’s in a thoughtful and interesting phase. Bother him when he’s just being obnoxious 😉
Sometimes this feels like a broken recording or robot, because reading all the replies to the last person who was angrier at everyone, I’m almost willing to bet a conversation won’t happen, nothing will change and they will go away again after maybe another message at most.
Though I’m not asking why do people do that anymore. I have learned something!
Reading the velvet underground jokes reminded me of something. Have most of you changed what you listen to drastically after getting clean or is it still the same? What 5 cd’s are essential for continuing life without drugs? 😉
-carrie

Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc
Date: May 16, 2002 at 9:04:34 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wHo is Pinky White?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Pinky White” <uselessaccount25@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 8:59 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc

I know 30 days have not passed but I’m ahead of
schedule with my monthly insights.

ABC news says

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/dotcoms020516.html

grep of article:

We’ve all gone broke, we’re sitting around being drunk
a lot and feeling sorry for ourselves, Bruce Fancher
doesn’t expect MindVox to make you guys millions.   If
you never manage to   O P E N  T H E  F U C K I N G
T H I N G  then I’d have to agree.

See you next month.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Pinky White <uselessaccount25@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Startling news from abc
Date: May 16, 2002 at 8:59:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I know 30 days have not passed but I’m ahead of
schedule with my monthly insights.

ABC news says

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/dotcoms020516.html

grep of article:

We’ve all gone broke, we’re sitting around being drunk
a lot and feeling sorry for ourselves, Bruce Fancher
doesn’t expect MindVox to make you guys millions.   If
you never manage to   O P E N  T H E  F U C K I N G
T H I N G  then I’d have to agree.

See you next month.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 6:14:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si> wrote:
if you love to melt pretty things (or just things) then you should
definitely try

http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html

Marko

ahhh yes, now that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside! great fun!

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 5:19:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 23:05 16.5.2002, you wrote:

I meant to say: thanks.  Making pretty things melty makes me feel Happy
inside.

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

if you love to melt pretty things (or just things) then you should definitely try

http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html

Marko

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 5:05:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, May 16, 2002 at 01:46:39PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Why did I know everyone would have a different answer 🙂 (not the
| music itself but the changing or not changed).

Look, haven’t your noticed a PATTERN by now…  Every question has as many
different answers are there are participants.  Go ask <any given question>
to 5 different consultants in <any given field> or 5 different doctors or
“addictionologists” (giggle), and I absolutely promise you will receive
similar responses.

Which is ta say: many different points of view.  Which is all any of it
ever amounts to.  There is no single, one, “correct” answer to <almost
anything>.

| ibogaine.net is very pretty Patrick, I love the melting banners for
| Healing Visions on Mindvox, I think those, the glock logo which still
| makes me break down and laugh are great. Now you’re rotating ibogaine
| dossier logos too, how long before Dr. Mash has you killed? 🙂

Thanks.  Though, I fully expect Glock will THANK US by threatening to sue
us sometime in the future whenever they take note of these improvements.
<Shrug>  Who knows, the Libertarian Party was highly okay with our, uhm,
slight departure with their usual logo…

Inasmuch as HV goes.  I’ve said it I think many times.  So one mo’ time.
Now, then forever:  I am not employed by HV — I work for a Brain Bank —
I am not a shareholder in HV; I love Deb, and if you actually look at it,
if there is a SINGLE UNIT comprising all Ibogaine banners that I rotate,
66% of them are ALL HERS.  33% are Nick and now Howard.  <shrug>  MindVox
belongs to my friends and I.  We can link, rotate, promote, whatever the
fuck we feel like promoting.

What I feel like promoting is this thing called ibogaine.  You’ve prolly
heard of it.  HV is super-groovy and Just Great.  You will get the
absolute finest of <everything>.  If ya lack the cash to detox there
though, I would still posit it might be Just Fabulous to go someplace
else and get ibogaine.  I’ve always linked Nick, who lists these <other
locations>  Howard does not.  If there were PrObLeMs in the past, oh well,
the past is gone, it went by like dusk to dawn, or did somebody already
say that…  Where was I, ahh yes, working on sumthin’ else.

To Conclude:  <throwing tantrum>  I can do whatever the fuck I want to do.
The more anybody tells me to do <anything> the more I will push back and
do the exact opposite <unless you’re trying to play me, in which case I
will pick Option 342.9, which is Not On The List At All> So fuck you all,
all ya all’s.

I meant to say: thanks.  Making pretty things melty makes me feel Happy
inside.

Patrick

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 4:46:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Why did I know everyone would have a different answer 🙂 (not the music itself but the changing or not changed).
ibogaine.net is very pretty Patrick, I love the melting banners for Healing Visions on Mindvox, I think those, the glock logo which still makes me break down and laugh are great. Now you’re rotating ibogaine dossier logos too, how long before Dr. Mash has you killed? 🙂
-carrie
Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Hey good question Carrie!

And yes, I really do listen to different stuff off of heroin; rarely listen to Rock n Roll Animal/Lou R, often listen to Van the man cos hs just inspires me IF makes me cry sometimes too! (but
y’know without smack, we just gotta let those tears out..)

Also listen to SOME Gospel Miusic, cos itr’s so uplifting. What/Who else? Moby, Janis (I know she’s dead but she’s also irresistable sometimes!) and many others. Depends what mood I’m in

%&^%^」”??!!!!

Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:36:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What’s P & M?!

Prayer and Meditation

One thing struck me about using is that eventually
people grow up (most) and there just isn’t time for a
hit of acid and being a junkie is hard work. Once upon
a time I could use and abuse to my hearts content and
go to work the next day. Then addiction came upon me
and I abused more and recuperated less, it effected my
life. Then I got old (yeah, I know I am a baby at 44)
and getting up some days is hard enough with a good
nights sleep, good diet and exercise. A lot of it (not
using) is plain it got old and so did I, time to move
on and no time or desire to keep beating the s..t out
of myself. It took more out of me with each relapse
and what was once an instant bounce back started
taking months and months – of course I was hitting the
stuff harder and harder.  There is a amount of simply
growing out of it (addiction/abuse) that happened.
Some however get stuck there, one is a brother of
mine, in his 50’s, still using (and would you believe
a drug treatment counselor) and starting to have
serious medical problems. He is far too angry and sees
no way out, just the same cycle of trying to get
clean, brief periods of non-use always with failure to
change and then back to using. His life is that of a
junkie, drugs or no drugs he doesn’t know any other
way and won’t accept any other way. He strongly puts
straight people down as if he likes what he is doing
and we are all lower forms of life… (add the twisted
addict logic here) – really HUGE amounts of
resentments. So while he rejects leading a normal
(relatively speaking) life, puts it down and chooses
the life of a junkie, he doesn’t like what he is
doing.

Brett

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 15 May 2002 02:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be
a junkie?

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

just spiritual I was a spirit. Now, lately a bunch
of
crap has been eating at me. Why the hell am I
having
these (bad) reactions to pain meds and a lot of
lifes
review going through my head with all the regrets
and
questions of WHY, WHY, WHY did I do what I did
when I
did it. It didn’t even sound like a “good idea” at
the
time (taken from a sane perspective) and I did it,
did
it again and did it over again or switched to
something else once I got my fill of getting
beaten up
that way. So, a couple days ago I had this
spiritual
thingie going on, somewhat ibo-like, that I have
been
going around the circle (of life) kicking and
screaming, doing everything but look at the path
in
front of me, looking at all the have-nots and
lost-thats, the waste (lately anyway) of time,
effort,
loved ones, to the side, standing on the side
looking
at everyone else going around the circle… I was
fighting life, not living it and my head was
singing
tunes of disharmony, this problem, that noise and
god
forbid I was actually alone with myself.

</snip>

dood! you too? hell it must be in the air, like
getting close to the 4 year
blues? I had been spending way too much time in the
head playing out the
what-ifs and the color of the grass OVER THERE until
like, on Sunday when I
decided to maybe try that stuff that was working for
me before, like
starting
out the day quiet, a little P&M in the AM, and maybe
not eating so many
cheeseburgers and Twix Bars.

But would I go back to using if it would be all
kosher with deputy dawg &
friends? welllll, I don’t think so, mainly because
its that obsession that
someone else was talkin about, where the H becomes
my single purpose because
nothing seems the same or tolerable without it. And
I like the way I feel
these
days, in general. It would be nice to have a monthly
hit, and AMEN! god
forbid
if I mix some cocaine into it. Then it all goes to
hell in like 30 seconds.
But
I do long for that blissful euphoria, oh yes I do.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:35:11 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You young ones! What the funk is Lounge Music?!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 15 May 2002 07:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] changes in music

— Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com> wrote:

Reading the velvet underground jokes reminded me of something. Have most
of
you changed what you listen to drastically after getting clean or is it
still
the same? What 5 cd’s are essential for continuing life without drugs? 😉

well, I needed to change a lot of stuff and music initially was one of them
things. If you like Lounge Music then Check out Tosca: Suzuki in Dub. and
also
check “Peace Orchestra” (both by Peter Kruder) (ignore the long extended
bong
rip dub on trak 5 or 6 or 7. then again if that sorta thing bothers you, get
over it)

The Partridge Family’s Greatest Hits is always good for positive influence
as
well as Captain & Tenille (ok, sorry, that was out of line). or not.

But I seem to have lapsed back into my older tastes of music which jog the
memory banks but there’s some distance now and my first thought isn’t
[always]
“ahhhh… Freddie Freeloader! Its time to cop!” “I’m waiting for my man” But
let me tell you the Grateful Dead will never sound the same again, no matter
what disc I play. (My name is Dave, I’m a recovering Dead-Head) zoink!

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:33:06 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey good question Carrie!

And yes, I really do listen to different stuff off of heroin; rarely listen to Rock n Roll Animal/Lou R, often listen to Van the man cos hs just inspires me IF makes me cry sometimes too! (but
y’know without smack, we just gotta let those tears out..)

Also listen to SOME Gospel Miusic, cos itr’s so uplifting. What/Who else? Moby, Janis (I know she’s dead but she’s also irresistable sometimes!) and many others. Depends what mood I’m in

%&^%^£”??!!!!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Carrie Rollins [mailto:carrierollins@yahoo.com]
Sent: 15 May 2002 05:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] changes in music

Don’t beat up on Patrick, he’s in a thoughtful and interesting phase. Bother him when he’s just being obnoxious 😉
Sometimes this feels like a broken recording or robot, because reading all the replies to the last person who was angrier at everyone, I’m almost willing to bet a conversation won’t happen, nothing will change and they will go away again after maybe another message at most.
Though I’m not asking why do people do that anymore. I have learned something!
Reading the velvet underground jokes reminded me of something. Have most of you changed what you listen to drastically after getting clean or is it still the same? What 5 cd’s are essential for continuing life without drugs? 😉
-carrie

Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 16, 2002 at 10:00:22 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Gamma

What’s P & M?!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 15 May 2002 02:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

just spiritual I was a spirit. Now, lately a bunch of
crap has been eating at me. Why the hell am I having
these (bad) reactions to pain meds and a lot of lifes
review going through my head with all the regrets and
questions of WHY, WHY, WHY did I do what I did when I
did it. It didn’t even sound like a “good idea” at the
time (taken from a sane perspective) and I did it, did
it again and did it over again or switched to
something else once I got my fill of getting beaten up
that way. So, a couple days ago I had this spiritual
thingie going on, somewhat ibo-like, that I have been
going around the circle (of life) kicking and
screaming, doing everything but look at the path in
front of me, looking at all the have-nots and
lost-thats, the waste (lately anyway) of time, effort,
loved ones, to the side, standing on the side looking
at everyone else going around the circle… I was
fighting life, not living it and my head was singing
tunes of disharmony, this problem, that noise and god
forbid I was actually alone with myself.

</snip>

dood! you too? hell it must be in the air, like getting close to the 4 year
blues? I had been spending way too much time in the head playing out the
what-ifs and the color of the grass OVER THERE until like, on Sunday when I
decided to maybe try that stuff that was working for me before, like
starting
out the day quiet, a little P&M in the AM, and maybe not eating so many
cheeseburgers and Twix Bars.

But would I go back to using if it would be all kosher with deputy dawg &
friends? welllll, I don’t think so, mainly because its that obsession that
someone else was talkin about, where the H becomes my single purpose because
nothing seems the same or tolerable without it. And I like the way I feel
these
days, in general. It would be nice to have a monthly hit, and AMEN! god
forbid
if I mix some cocaine into it. Then it all goes to hell in like 30 seconds.
But
I do long for that blissful euphoria, oh yes I do.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 16, 2002 at 8:57:43 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Johnathan

I appreciated the sentiment of this e-mail, and I’m afraid I kinda take it
for granted that psychoactives are partly to do with placating the
unsatisfied masses of humans who need/want to survive this earthly (and
oftentimes painful, boring and empty existence.)

On the other hand, there could be something in here about taking on that
many of the psychedelics, even MDMA (which isn’t strictly speaking a
psychedelic at all in fact!) are NOT for daily, or even that
regular/frequent use, no? ( I’ve sometimes wondered if Shulgin-type folk go
into the closet about discovering an experience like you describe for
themselves) Not something I would like to imagine could really be happening,
but how, after years of advocating the use of some substances for
soul-revealing purposes in a safe environment etc etc, could you suddenly
turn around and admit that something awful had happened to you? It would be
like drug warriors actually admitting that the drug war is a complete fiasco
that needs to be dumped ASAP. VERY hard indeed

I have been prescribed a medication which I describe as having 1/8 of an e
each day, and my emotions are often down… it worries me like f if/when I
finally come off this thing what my serotonin levels are going to be like..

Sadly, it might just be that we are in that minority who really suffer
easily as a result of ‘playing’ with our brain chemistry

Take care, and i hope you feel MUCH better soon

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG [mailto:jonarmst@du.edu]
Sent: 14 May 2002 17:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?

Since we’re already way off-topic in terms of the usual
where-are-YOUR-collapsed-veins? smack-talk, I must briefly vent on what I
feel is a completely overrated garbage drug, MDMA:

(Oh, don’t get me wrong – the first ten times or so are completely nifty,
but after that, I’d just as soon see a vaccination that prevents you from
feelings its effects in order to save a lot of heartache.)

To wit: for the past 48 hours, I have been unable to move.  I missed work
yesterday, so weak because I cannot eat, and I could not sleep despite
administering something like 80 mg of diazepam over a 24 hour period.

I feel spaced out in a manner that has absolutely no parallel.  Something
about the serotonin depletion mixed with amphetamine overstimulation
causes a drain on the body and mind that could only be remotely compared
to 48 hour meth binge.  DUH.  I’d like to think about what is actually
going on my brain right now, but I couldn’t remember what an axon
terminal, neuron, or axon hillock is to save my life.

This drug has got to be the greatest deceiver of any known drug.  I can’t
imagine what it was like during those first harrowing weeks of known
heroin addiction, but I’d guess that most of you knew what you were
getting into to some degree.  MDMA is like this “Oh this is so great,
there’s no parallel between this and any other hard drugs.”  The worst is
that there’s a class of very intelligent people out there who seem
oblivious to its negative effects; I’d like to have the Shulgins
experience some of the things I’ve experienced and conjecture about what
legalized psychedelics would really do for the soul of consumerized
America.  It’s just one more escape mechanism, a
way for working-class stiffs to be “entertained” and put their heart and
soul into what is inherently a fruitless, worthless endeavor while they
cannot see the forest for the trees.

Let me also ‘fess up and say this was a particularly bad experience.  I am
a very social person, but I cannot have a conversation about some “Xbox”
game where “dude, you like have all these spells, and these armies of
monsters, then you let them loose and it causes, like, TOTAL HAVOC, man, I
spent a year doing nothing but playing this game” (hence, the reason
you’re such a DUMB-ASS)… oh, I also got to hear about how his MIDI
studio is so “dope”, “so I like take five sounds, and layer ’em over one
another, and it makes like this boom-tsh-boom-tsh-booooom-tsh-wikka-wikka
like sweeping noise, you know”

Evidently me reclining on an La-Z-Boy with eyes closed wasn’t enough to
deter this fellow, who kept TALKING MY FUCKING EAR OFF for no less than
two hours, following me around to three discrete locations in the house.
Some “empathogen”; give this fucker 10 mg of Xanax and 6-pack of Coors,
please.

I know psychedelics have done a lot of good for me personally, but I have
finally come to the awful realization that all they are – and this goes
for all drugs – is really a false panacea for the masses, another
consumer-oriented form of entertainment a la professional sports, summer
blockbusters, etc.  Just work your shitty job, don’t question the
overarching power structure and authority, pour your hopes and dreams into
some ridiculous fantasy of making it big as an (actor, DJ, etc.).  In the
meantime, you can get baked and play your PS2.  It was particularly
depressing to have to hear my friend’s beautiful wife spill her guts about
how she doesn’t want to move back East, but feels the need to be the
diligent wife while her husband tries to make it big in the music
industry.  Later that night, I found her passed out on the floor in the
bathroom; she insisted she was “all right” and I helped her upstairs, and
then she started sobbing uncontrollably – what a nice, “chill” psychedelic
vibe, huh?  “Just smoke another bowl dude, that’ll mellow you out.”

Jonathan
——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Sun, 12 May 2002, preston peet wrote:

Hey all, one more thing-
I forgot to include marijuana and shroom-type stuff in my list of
preferred
substances over alcohol and pharmaceuticals.
Pot particularly helped me mightily to realign my thinking on drug use
and abuse, and stabilize. The others, well, they help me occasionally
realign in general.
I also suspect I wouldn’t do heroin, but rather might occasionally
like
a bowl of opium. Even on that I’m not entirely sure. I don’t have a lot of
time to get wiped out, and I would get wiped out trying to get to a point
where I could do heroin and be sociable and functional due to lack of
tolerance now. Difficult question to answer firmly in the current
environment of prohibition. Hard to imagine a different way occurring at
this time of treating people and drugs than how we do now.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?

If heroin were legal and you could do it without any legal
consequences.
Would you want to be on heroin? I mean with a clear cut choice, you can
use
it if you want to and it’s ok, do you want to be a junkie? <

Hmmm, hi Rob, (for those with limited patience or bandwidth, this one is
a
little long.)
Good question.
(think, think, tapping head, think, think)
What’s a junkie?
Are people junkies because we tell them they are, because we treat
them
as such, because they are cut off from the rest of society at this time?
Or
does heroin alone turn them into junkies?
Since it isn’t legal now, I’m not sure how I’d feel if it were, nor
how
I would react if it became so. It’s been a while, and the last time I
tried
some, I wasn’t all that impressed with the resulting headache and
throwing
up. Of course, I did it alone, (trying to hide it for the evening, LOL,
like
that was even remotely possible with my billboard eyes, which would have
given me away had I not been passed out naked and sick, already giving
away
the fact that I was messed up when V got home long before I opened my
pinned, glazed eyes), bought it from some person I’d never met, much
less
ever seen before so had no idea what it was cut with, and already felt
guilt
(bad junkie!) for even buying it, much less shooting it.
I can’t remember his name right now, but who was that very famous
American surgeon who shot morphine all his life? I think he’s known as
the
father of American surgery, but I could be mistaken. Ahhh, here is is-

http://www.addictinthefamily.org/chapsix.html
Dr William Stewart Halsted (1852 – 1922) is known as the father of
American
surgery. He pioneered the cancer saving operation, the mastectomy, at a
time
when cure from the disease was unknown. He popularised the use of rubber
gloves in the operating theatres and introduced several other important
advances in surgical technique including improved blood transfusion. He
used
daily morphine for most of his long life.<

Again, hmmm, more thinking.
Looking at the medical evidence, were it legal, I’d pick heroin, (or
opiates
of any kind) over any other drug, ANY, the pharmaceutical companies
offer
me, any alcohol the booze pushers push at me, and over strict sobriety.
If
I
were guarenteed it wouldn’t become illegal again, I just might use
heroin.
Of course, I am only speaking for myself, and I am not one hundred
percent
sure if I would definitely use it. Unfortunately, I do not see that
becoming
a choice in the near, or even far future, in this country anyway.
Maybe I have a chemical imbalance. Maybe I’d be self-medicating.
Maybe
I’d be using a substance that if not sold by unlicensed dealers who cut
it
with shit I’d be using one of the safest, cleanest, most effective drugs
humanity has ever known, that nature ever provided us. I certainly
wouldn’t
think of myself as a junkie. I’d be a human being who takes heroin
regularly. Sorta like insulin, except it’d get me somewhat higher.

From “Animals and Psychedelics”, by Giorgio Samorini-
“If we think of drugging oneself in terms of dependence and addiction,
we
might define a drug as something that creates in its user a strong
behavioral dependence, the deprevation of which brings on an obvious
crisis
of withdrawal. But then food too would conform to such a definition,
since
it something upon which we are continually dependent, the deprivation of
which induces the most evident and critical withdrawal of all- hunger
leading to eventual starvation….
[then he points out cultures, such as various tribes in the Amazonia who
use
drugs illegal here, yet consider what we’ve given them, cigarettes and
tobacco, as drugs, but not the substances they already use of their own,
like coca and native tobaccos, and ayhuasca- forgive my inability to
spell
that spontaneously- P.]
“…From all this we can deduce that the definition of what constitues a
drug is dependent on its encompassing culture. Even the effects of drugs
are
influenced by the cultural environment in which they are experienced.
For
this reason it is extremely difficult to formulate a scientific and
general
definition of the concepts ‘drug’ and ‘drugged’. It is also probable
that
some of these difficulties are reinforced by an excess of generalization
regarding the ‘drug phenomenon’; that is to say, many behavioral
phenomena
are forced together under this umbrella concept, when in reality they
are
sharply distinct from it…
“Returning to the human arena, we must take into account the fact that
all
human behaviors, including the primary functions of nutrition and
reproduction, are mediated by culture.
Having identified a natural component in the human impulse to take
drugs- by observing the same impulses made manifest in the animal
kingdom,
[as if humans are seperate from the animal world-P], the problems linked
to
human drug use must be found in the cultural component that mediates
this
behavior. In other words, the ‘drug phenomenon’ is a natural phenomenon,
while the ‘drug problem’ is a cultural problem.
The drug problem in modern society is not so much due to the
existence
of drugs, or the natural impulse to take them as to the deculturization
of
the human approach to them. To ensure that human drug use does not
debase
itself and become ‘bestial’, it is important that it, like all other
human
behaviors, be mediated by appropriate cultural understanding and
knowledge.
DEPRIVING THE INDIVIDUAL AND HIS OR HER SOCIETY OF THIS KNOWLEDGE- AN
UNDERSTANDING, ABOVE ALL, OF HOW TO USE DRUGS AND IN WHICH CONTEXTS
THEIR
USE IS APPROPRIATE- PAVES THE WAY FOR IMPROPER APPROACH AND USE, AND
CONSEQUENTLY, FOR THE DRUG PROBLEM.” [my emphasis- P]

So, to answer your question, if the society I live in didn’t ostacize
me,
(at least, any more than already, LOL), think me evil and treat me so
for
doing so, I MIGHT do heroin. I still wonder how much of my ‘junkie’
behavior
stemmed from me acting how I was told all my life I was supposed to act
on
heroin. I seriously doubt I’d be out committing crime, and selling
myself,
and all those other abhorent things one sometimes must do to obtain
their
drugs of choice today, were it legal. It wasn’t ever the drug itself
that
I
wanted away from, (I’ve recently firmly decided, and have always
suspected),
but rather the Armies of Darkness, to borrow Patrick’s borrowed phrase.
Of
course, for me, and I speak for myself only, cocaine, that other
boogiedrug
of today, is a no-no, and I have absolutely no desire for that one. But
then, I don’t descriminate against those who do use it, I merely keep an
eye
on my money, and my back when they’re around, and personally try to
avoid
their company. Even were it legal, I’d stay away from that one.
Hope this wasn’t too long, or non-commital.
Peace, and no judgements,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <robertbosch@softhome.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 3:54 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?

If heroin were legal and you could do it without any legal
consequences.
Would you want to be on heroin? I mean with a clear cut choice, you
can
use
it if you want to and it’s ok, do you want to be a junkie?

I’m not asking because I’m taking a survey, I’m asking because these
are
some of the questions I am asking myself right at this moment and
wonder
what others on this list may have to say.

I know this is similar to what has been asked but I think there is a
crucial
difference. I am not asking if you should have the right to do heroin
or
not, I agree with most of the sentiment on this list that it should be
everyone’s own choice. I’m not even asking why you quit. I’m asking if
that’s how you’d like to live?

Thank you

Rob

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Dionne Warwick was Honored by Samaritan House
Date: May 15, 2002 at 9:27:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Wed, 15 May 2002
Source: New York Post (NY)
Section: Page 6
Website: http://www.nypost.com/
Feedback: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/letters/letters_editor.htm
Address: 1211 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY 10036-8790
Contact: letters@nypost.com
Copyright: 2002 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc.
Author: Richard Johnson with Paula Froelich and Chris Wilson

POT PARADOX

DIONNE Warwick’s arrest for marijuana over the weekend struck some
knowledgable types as more than a bit ironic. “Dionne was the guest of
honor at the Samaritan Village’s benefit awards dinner last month at the
New York Hilton,” a source recalled. The Village, a well-known drug rehab
center with live-in communities all over New York, honored Warwick for her
work in fighting drugs. “What a joke!” the dinner spy sneered.
– —
MAP posted-by: Beth

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 15, 2002 at 3:41:05 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?

Whether addiction is a lousy concept or not, what you have described
sounds like you are well on your way to developing one.

Aforementioned Dr. Lilly quote refers to the fact that it is often
indistinguishable between environmental factors (“society” or what have
you) and the individual in question.  I always view the Internet with no
reliance on the true intention of the message trying to be conveyed by the
author due to its impersonal, generic feel to it – I’m the sort of
person who relies heavily on facial contact and gesticulations – but I
don’t really like the implication that because I had one bad experience
that I need to “seek help” or something of that nature.  But then again, I
have a serious problem with being a Discontent in some sort of
Civilization.

Let me clarify.  It’s a big, mean, nasty world out there.  I could insert
standard anti-capitalist, consumerist critique, breakdown of the family,
suburban nightmare gang-rape stories, in here and end up sounding part
Newt Gingrich and part Noam Chomsky.  The fact remains that whatever drug
you insert out into “The World” is going to be a reflection of that world.
And that world, from my vantage point, is one fueled by nihilistic
hedonism, devoid of spirituality, and a constant attempt by its members to
compensate for their perceived powerlessness in the face of dark,
overwhelming forces.

You may have a different opinion.  I worked very hard to develop myself
and avoid this malaise.  There are certainly people out there who view
human beings as atomistic units making Individualistic Choices and dealing
with Consequent Ramifications, with Big Societal Penalties for Overstating
Environmental Factors.  However, my point of that message (which
was evidently lost) is that in a psychedelic mindstate, the topography of
the alienation and decline is laid out for me in a manner that is highly
disturbing if I’m not in the correct Set and Setting.  Not as bad as the
zoophilia video that I ended up watching on a couple of sugar cubes one
night, but more disturbing in its indication of a widespread malaise and
decline.

What’s on some people on all sides of the “drug war debate” is that
these drugs – whether they be coke, smack, E, cannabis, or what have you –
are not static entities with static effects introduced into a static
world.  More specifically, MDMA, despite its potential, is not a great
Spiritual Healer in this time and place.  Just look at the logos –
Ferraris, Rolls Royces, Mercedes… there’s a connection to be made here.
And there’s not anything wrong with a little mindless hedonism on
occasion, either.  But when there’s this stipulation that there’s some
great connective spiritual experience being had, that we’re all
Connecting, and my Observer says something very different that sets off a
domino effect related to years upon years of prior observations of creepy
Dominator Culture – that’s what causes me to not sleep for days.  Not
MDMA.

Yo Jonathan, speak away about the world YOU inhabit, no problem. But when
you go around implying it’s the same kind of experience for everyone and
this is why we NEED DRUGS you’re on dodgy terrain, imo. I’ve seen a lot of
people who are either into drugs or into treating druggies go down this road
and neither group is going anywhere fast, again imo.

The world is simply what you make it. The mind in normal consciousness HAS
TO decide what is good and what is bad and from this proceeds a whole mass
of judgments and, in the case of druggies, excuses. I’m on heroin because
I’m really a Celt and the evil, dominator culture has so destroyed my
heritage and way of life I’ve no choice but to stick drugs in my arm – yeah,
right, like what a fucking joke! That’s just prison cell consciousness and a
good excuse to stay fucked up. Consider that, as a junkie, you’re addicted
to one of the most powerful painkillers in the world, and that this is
because you’re scared of expressing emotions and, in a year or so’s time,
you’re no longer going to be using. It’s all a question of perspective. One
addict doesn’t want to look in the mirror and so makes the world into an
evil place. Another is willing to do so and so the world becomes interesting
and a challenge.

http://www.mycathatesyou.com/ Now here’s something worth getting worried
about. The Cats are coming, man, it’s scarey!

Nick

So, sorry I didn’t make that clear, but I wish people wouldn’t just state
that there’s a “drug problem” at the drop of a hat like that – believe me,
I *WANT* a drug problem, but those vials of Demerol and Ketalar just
aren’t falling from the sky around here like they used to.  😉

Peace,
Jonathan

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 15, 2002 at 1:47:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Whether addiction is a lousy concept or not, what you have described sounds like you are well on your way to developing one.

Aforementioned Dr. Lilly quote refers to the fact that it is often
indistinguishable between environmental factors (“society” or what have
you) and the individual in question.  I always view the Internet with no
reliance on the true intention of the message trying to be conveyed by the
author due to its impersonal, generic feel to it – I’m the sort of
person who relies heavily on facial contact and gesticulations – but I
don’t really like the implication that because I had one bad experience
that I need to “seek help” or something of that nature.  But then again, I
have a serious problem with being a Discontent in some sort of
Civilization.

Let me clarify.  It’s a big, mean, nasty world out there.  I could insert
standard anti-capitalist, consumerist critique, breakdown of the family,
suburban nightmare gang-rape stories, in here and end up sounding part
Newt Gingrich and part Noam Chomsky.  The fact remains that whatever drug
you insert out into “The World” is going to be a reflection of that world.
And that world, from my vantage point, is one fueled by nihilistic
hedonism, devoid of spirituality, and a constant attempt by its members to
compensate for their perceived powerlessness in the face of dark,
overwhelming forces.

You may have a different opinion.  I worked very hard to develop myself
and avoid this malaise.  There are certainly people out there who view
human beings as atomistic units making Individualistic Choices and dealing
with Consequent Ramifications, with Big Societal Penalties for Overstating
Environmental Factors.  However, my point of that message (which
was evidently lost) is that in a psychedelic mindstate, the topography of
the alienation and decline is laid out for me in a manner that is highly
disturbing if I’m not in the correct Set and Setting.  Not as bad as the
zoophilia video that I ended up watching on a couple of sugar cubes one
night, but more disturbing in its indication of a widespread malaise and
decline.

What’s on some people on all sides of the “drug war debate” is that
these drugs – whether they be coke, smack, E, cannabis, or what have you –
are not static entities with static effects introduced into a static
world.  More specifically, MDMA, despite its potential, is not a great
Spiritual Healer in this time and place.  Just look at the logos –
Ferraris, Rolls Royces, Mercedes… there’s a connection to be made here.
And there’s not anything wrong with a little mindless hedonism on
occasion, either.  But when there’s this stipulation that there’s some
great connective spiritual experience being had, that we’re all
Connecting, and my Observer says something very different that sets off a
domino effect related to years upon years of prior observations of creepy
Dominator Culture – that’s what causes me to not sleep for days.  Not
MDMA.

So, sorry I didn’t make that clear, but I wish people wouldn’t just state
that there’s a “drug problem” at the drop of a hat like that – believe me,
I *WANT* a drug problem, but those vials of Demerol and Ketalar just
aren’t falling from the sky around here like they used to.  😉

Peace,
Jonathan

You may want to get some help for it. Whatever help means to you. if only realising that what you’re doing to yourself may not be what you want to be doing or are trying for.

MDMA after some days strait is the same as doing low grade speed. Stop go to sleep or something and then don’t repeat it. You have obviously not made yourself happy. Repeating the cycle again when it brings you to the level of despair you describe sounds suspiciously close like “addiction” to me, whatever you want to call it.

————————————————————
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 15, 2002 at 12:46:56 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 11:02:22PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| — Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| > Reading the velvet underground jokes reminded me of something. Have most of
| > you changed what you listen to drastically after getting clean or is it still
| > the same? What 5 cd’s are essential for continuing life without drugs? 😉
|
| well, I needed to change a lot of stuff and music initially was one of them
| things. If you like Lounge Music then Check out Tosca: Suzuki in Dub. and also
| check “Peace Orchestra” (both by Peter Kruder) (ignore the long extended bong
| rip dub on trak 5 or 6 or 7. then again if that sorta thing bothers you, get
| over it)

5…  Dunno…  I can list three, and fill up the rest of the other two
with a large variety of tracks ranging from GnR Do0D(ette), all the way to
the classics from Richard Hell, Lords of the New Church, Hawkwind, Sex
Pistols, White Zombie (yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhHH!), but, hum, here’s 3:

Jane’s Addiction: Jane’s Addiction (the live CD before Nothing’s Shocking).
Soundgarden: Badmotorfinger
Sisters of Mercy: Floodland

| The Partridge Family’s Greatest Hits is always good for positive influence as
| well as Captain & Tenille (ok, sorry, that was out of line). or not.

I agree, lots and lots.  This is very speshul.  Also special is the Type O
Negative cover of “Summer Breeze” which is simply magical.  Most
especially the (Suicide as Self Expression) alt. lyrics.  Very pretty.

| But I seem to have lapsed back into my older tastes of music which jog the
| memory banks but there’s some distance now and my first thought isn’t [always]
| “ahhhh… Freddie Freeloader! Its time to cop!” “I’m waiting for my man” But
| let me tell you the Grateful Dead will never sound the same again, no matter
| what disc I play. (My name is Dave, I’m a recovering Dead-Head) zoink!

I dunno, I never switched music…  VARIOUS ENTITIES attempted to try an
re-imprint me with that <BwInG> <bWiNg> <bwong> <BWONG> new age shit…
But it just didn’t work out.  Sorry, nope, no resonance there…  Yeahhhh
mahnnn, rock the fuck out, woo hoo.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 🙂
Date: May 15, 2002 at 12:32:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 09:37:15PM -0700], [vector6@space.com] wrote:

| From: alexis@panix.com (Alexis Rosen)
| Newsgroups: panix.chat
| Subject: A last dying gasp from the anklebiters (more history)
| Date: 6 Nov 2000 00:25:43 -0500
| Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
|
| [This will mostly be amusing to old-timers from 1992-1994]
|
| This evening I called AT&T, the company that services my Visa card, to
| refuse a charge (for a broken toy I sent back, details not important).
|
| The last time I spoke to them was, it appears, seven or eight years ago.
| How do I know this? Because, when they asked me what my mother’s maiden
| name was, and I answered, the woman very politely said “No, that’s not
| it. It begins with an ‘M'”.
|
| This was more than a little startling to me, since my mother has not
| changed her name, and even if she were to do so, I don’t see how she
| could change her *maiden* name.
|
| How bad is their security? The AT&T rep asked for my Social Security number
| and date of birth. As soon as I did so she was able to change the maiden
| name info (which, she said, can also be any password you like). I picked
| something new, and deleted the DOB info so this couldn’t be done again.
|
| Obviously, someone else had called in, provided my SSID and DOB, and
| changed that password. So how do I know when this was done? Because she
| told me that the password was… “Mindvox”!
|
| Gee. What an awesome “hack”. I’d grovel before the 7331 dudes, if only I
| could find them, but they’ve all dried up and blown away, and their
| spritiual heirs are all trading warez in IRC, which I don’t use…
|
| /a

I replied to that like 2 years ago.  I still don’t understand what the
hell his problem is.  A funny joke fell through a hole in time, and
emerged on the other side of the statute of limitations.  Aside from
which, I have no idea who would have done such a thing; probably some
immature person who was really wasted at 3am, sitting in a room with other
immature people and giggling a lot.

Still, I fail to see the inspiration for this complaint.  Did THOSE PEOPLE
— whomever they are — steal anything from him?  Did they take his credit
cards, call an escort service, and order a hooker to his house while his
wife is home…?  No, they just changed his mom’s name to MindVox…  I
don’t see the problem.  MindVox is a GREAT name, if I met a chick named
MindVox, I would exert great effort to make her my next ex-wife.

Patrick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 15, 2002 at 2:02:22 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com> wrote:

Reading the velvet underground jokes reminded me of something. Have most of
you changed what you listen to drastically after getting clean or is it still
the same? What 5 cd’s are essential for continuing life without drugs? 😉

well, I needed to change a lot of stuff and music initially was one of them
things. If you like Lounge Music then Check out Tosca: Suzuki in Dub. and also
check “Peace Orchestra” (both by Peter Kruder) (ignore the long extended bong
rip dub on trak 5 or 6 or 7. then again if that sorta thing bothers you, get
over it)

The Partridge Family’s Greatest Hits is always good for positive influence as
well as Captain & Tenille (ok, sorry, that was out of line). or not.

But I seem to have lapsed back into my older tastes of music which jog the
memory banks but there’s some distance now and my first thought isn’t [always]
“ahhhh… Freddie Freeloader! Its time to cop!” “I’m waiting for my man” But
let me tell you the Grateful Dead will never sound the same again, no matter
what disc I play. (My name is Dave, I’m a recovering Dead-Head) zoink!

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 15, 2002 at 1:27:04 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“What I didn’t feel is frightened.  And, 
| that was the first time in my life that I recalled not feeling frightened.  I 
| didn’t even realize I was frightened all my life till I was no longer 
| frightened.  I mean, if you don’t know another place you can never look back. ”
Thank you for saying this.  It’s absolutely what made ibogaine amazing for me, and not only while on it, 48 hours of deep insight etc but no fear, but during the decision-making process to do it, slightly edgy, but not afraid.
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] 🙂
Date: May 15, 2002 at 12:37:15 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is off topic but what here isn’t. This is from best of the weird internet reprinting mindvox (alt.talk.bizarre) 🙂 .:vector:. From: alexis@panix.com (Alexis Rosen) Newsgroups: panix.chat Subject: A last dying gasp from the anklebiters (more history) Date: 6 Nov 2000 00:25:43 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC [This will mostly be amusing to old-timers from 1992-1994] This evening I called AT&T, the company that services my Visa card, to refuse a charge (for a broken toy I sent back, details not important). The last time I spoke to them was, it appears, seven or eight years ago. How do I know this? Because, when they asked me what my mother’s maiden name was, and I answered, the woman very politely said “No, that’s not it. It begins with an ‘M'”. This was more than a little startling to me, since my mother has not changed her name, and even if she were to do so, I don’t see how she could change her *maiden* name. How bad is their security? The AT&T rep asked for my Social Security number and date of birth. As soon as I did so she was able to change the maiden name info (which, she said, can also be any password you like). I picked something new, and deleted the DOB info so this couldn’t be done again. Obviously, someone else had called in, provided my SSID and DOB, and changed that password. So how do I know when this was done? Because she told me that the password was… “Mindvox”! Gee. What an awesome “hack”. I’d grovel before the 7331 dudes, if only I could find them, but they’ve all dried up and blown away, and their spritiual heirs are all trading warez in IRC, which I don’t use… /a
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] changes in music
Date: May 15, 2002 at 12:17:40 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Don’t beat up on Patrick, he’s in a thoughtful and interesting phase. Bother him when he’s just being obnoxious 😉
Sometimes this feels like a broken recording or robot, because reading all the replies to the last person who was angrier at everyone, I’m almost willing to bet a conversation won’t happen, nothing will change and they will go away again after maybe another message at most.
Though I’m not asking why do people do that anymore. I have learned something!
Reading the velvet underground jokes reminded me of something. Have most of you changed what you listen to drastically after getting clean or is it still the same? What 5 cd’s are essential for continuing life without drugs? 😉
-carrie

Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 10:52:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 10:14:14AM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| Part of me actually feels that a bit but when i sit here and really think about
| it its like, DAMN I LOVE HEROIN! It works quite well for stuffing all the
| unpleasantries that living in this society has to offer, not to mention THAT
| NOISE in my head. And of course best of all that warm creeping EUPHORIA,
| pleasant drifting and nodding with cigarette and listening to groovy sounds of
| Miles Davis. Coming out of a nod trying to figure out what that conversation I
| just had with myself was all about.

Oh gosh, not me, ignore everything I said before, heroin is Super-Bad, I
hated every moment of the terrible slavery I put myself in, and thank all
my Higher Powers, I clawed my way out of that awful hell.

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant to say.

| But given the nature of prohibition I had to gravitate to all the cool and
| exciting methods of finding ways and means to get more, then there was the
| occasional overdose and watching people die and lets see… destroying my veins
| from shooting the only available dope Black Tar… and the constipation. I mean
| fucking BOULDERS, I don’t miss that. Purple swollen hands and arms, cold bones,
| cockroaches, violence, unsanitary conditions, l-o-n-g waiting at the clinic,
| discrimination in the emergency room – jeez the list goes on regarding the
| places we go to maintain a habit. And oh yeah did I forget that in the end it
| was just about getting well and the warm fuzzy feeling was far and few in
| between?

Yeah, see, there, that ending part, is sorta annoying, because no matter
how much money you have, you don’t feel it anymore, unless you shoot some
coke, but that won’t help, so you need to shoot a LOT of coke, and then by
day two or three, you’re tweaking the fuck out, no matter how much heroin
you shot, which you stopped feeling again on day two, except now you have
MANY THINGS inside your mind to occupy your time, and….

And if you’re not broke and go to cop, then reality will have rearranged
itself to 180 degrees in the opposite direction, since the last time you
were at this spot — oh, say, 15 minutes ago — when every hot stamp on
the planet was drifting by, but see, now that you can cop perhaps a few
bundles even, there isn’t anything TO cop, and you seem to be getting
really fucking dopesick, despite having cash in your pocket, and every
minute you spend sitting in yet another bodega, bar, hovel, porch, parking
lot, seems like 100 years, and time is moving backwards, but the fact that
TNT just drove up the street and then STOPPED at the corner, has killed
everything, and 2 corners up there still isn’t anything, and realtime,
outside of your head, where you have been wandering here for centuries,
has actually moved forward by 4 hours, and you said you’d be back in 20
minutes, but obviously you’re a complete fucking disaster who is always
late, absent, or totally dysfunctional because the WAR ON DRUGS, I meant
to say, being a lowlife junkie; fucks eveything up.

I meant to say, whatchoo talkin’ ’bout?

| Doing all sorts of drugs from the age of 11 on, I was mostly fond of
| psychedelics. Mainly because of my visual artist orientation. the occasional
| bottle of demerol, percodan, etc was ALWAYS enjoyed to the fullest. But when I
| tried dope, it was like WOW. I’d seen enough of the funnels filled with eyes,
| multicolored tubes and watching gawd write my name in the stars. I just wanted
| to GET DOWN with this dark seductress. Not to mention that just about every
| artist/musician/writer that I really dug was into dope… so there had been
| this long awaited fascination with dope.

You know what’s totally fucking cool, is when you’re in an altered state
— however you get there — and the tampestry of lights unwinds itself and
spins out and you’re suspended in all this, it’s really easy to visualize
all this falling into like infinite darkness, blackness, numbness, and
just let yourself unravel into that…  I sometimes do it like that,
sometimes I visualize/feel/experience/re-exist like thousands of needles
injecting into veins. and all the beautiful blood music, molecules, and
receptors, colliding with one another…    this is truly cool… it’s the
total upside of everything great about heroin, with none of the down…
who woulda thunk…   on the flipside it is much less effective than that
bangin’ up thing; on a daily basis…  especially when you’re really
miserable, pissed, or feeling fully fucking psychotic and in severe need
of downhead =)

| So its really no surprise that to escape/pause/arrest this narcotic HELL I had
| gotten myself into that the answer would come from the root bark of a plant
| with “psychedelic” qualities. – Oh child of the stars open your eyes to the
| light, lets drift down memory lane and sift thru the wreckage and connect the
| dots. I clearly remember in the middle of the ibo experience a STRONG craving
| for a hit of dope. not that I was in acute withdrawal, but the longing for that
| WOMB-LIKE environment.

Huh…?  I just took a wrong turn on my way to the methadone clinic one
day and would up in the West Indies.  <shrug>  These things happen.

| sort of follow up plan, I just feel IMMORTAL right now. The sun was very
| fucking huge, the clouds were extremely fluffy and I had this feeling I could
| reach out and touch them all.

So YOU’RE the one who took all that positive energy I didn’t get right
afterwards!

| But in reference to the subject of this thread I never woke up one day
| and said I want to be a junkie when I grow up. It just sort of happened
| and there were…

No, but I do admit that ever since I was a little kid, the first time I
heard Heroin, I always wondered what it would be like to feel that numb,
unattached, free from the pain associated with existing…  It didn’t
take me very long to find out =)  Lou Reed managed to convey a very
beautiful, mystical upside to that whole entire trip…  Amazing piece of
art, the greatest gospel music ever written for the major diety named
heroin…  It’s too bad it’s mostly about the honeymoon.  Honeymoon’s are
good though…  it’s such an amazing state when you first discover the
greatest thing in the world…  Wow!  Everybody should be on heroin all
the time!  Wars would end, love — or at least total apathy — would sweep
the world, and a healing wave of numbess would wash across the land…
Wooooshhhh.

I meant to say, THE VELVET UNDERGROUND ruined my life.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] possible minor corrections 🙂
Date: May 14, 2002 at 9:48:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 05:38:34PM -0700], [L. Gordon] wrote:
| I will say this without rancor and with little ranting as I can because
| I do realise going off is a symptom of my own problems.

That’s excellent, progress can be a wonderful thing.

| Patrick yes Dr. Mash is a wonderful, beautiful amazing human being.
| _for you_.

Okay, well, you summed it up…  Therefore my problem is…?

| You talk shit about people you don’t like not behind her back but to
| her face, she smiles and accepts it. You yell and smash things and throw
| tantrums, she thinks it’s cute “throwing a Patrick”. You are running a
| ibogaine list which doesn’t promote her detox and is filled with people
| who were all on her enemy list less then 2 years ago, now she’s ok with
| it because you’re doing it. Any “normal” person who looks at Mindvox is
| concerned about your head, she thinks it’s pretty and mentions it all
| the time. You were some mess she met 3 years ago and detoxed two or
| three times off heroin, now you do brains for her.

I am less than perfect.  I will try harder to live up to your expectations.

| Patrick what I am trying to get across is your Dr. Mash is not the same
| one everyone else gets. I don’t know enough about either one of you to
| say anything about your relationship but let me explain is really
| easily: she _loves_ you. She doesn’t even _like_ most other people.

To reiterate: okay, what’s my problem…?  I’m not seeing it.

Dude, you have some issues n’ things.  Usually all of this derives from
the feeling that life is less than perfect, and somebody else didn’t
do everything for you, wave a magic wand, and make it all different.  Even
if you wrote a really big check.

In other words after your 12th relapse in 14 days, somebody finally
stopped taking the phone calls, and attempting to get you into yet another
place, which has not thrown you out.

This could not possibly be your own choice, example of cause and effect,
or very own personal problem in general.

Patrick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 9:50:56 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

just spiritual I was a spirit. Now, lately a bunch of
crap has been eating at me. Why the hell am I having
these (bad) reactions to pain meds and a lot of lifes
review going through my head with all the regrets and
questions of WHY, WHY, WHY did I do what I did when I
did it. It didn’t even sound like a “good idea” at the
time (taken from a sane perspective) and I did it, did
it again and did it over again or switched to
something else once I got my fill of getting beaten up
that way. So, a couple days ago I had this spiritual
thingie going on, somewhat ibo-like, that I have been
going around the circle (of life) kicking and
screaming, doing everything but look at the path in
front of me, looking at all the have-nots and
lost-thats, the waste (lately anyway) of time, effort,
loved ones, to the side, standing on the side looking
at everyone else going around the circle… I was
fighting life, not living it and my head was singing
tunes of disharmony, this problem, that noise and god
forbid I was actually alone with myself.

</snip>

dood! you too? hell it must be in the air, like getting close to the 4 year
blues? I had been spending way too much time in the head playing out the
what-ifs and the color of the grass OVER THERE until like, on Sunday when I
decided to maybe try that stuff that was working for me before, like starting
out the day quiet, a little P&M in the AM, and maybe not eating so many
cheeseburgers and Twix Bars.

But would I go back to using if it would be all kosher with deputy dawg &
friends? welllll, I don’t think so, mainly because its that obsession that
someone else was talkin about, where the H becomes my single purpose because
nothing seems the same or tolerable without it. And I like the way I feel these
days, in general. It would be nice to have a monthly hit, and AMEN! god forbid
if I mix some cocaine into it. Then it all goes to hell in like 30 seconds. But
I do long for that blissful euphoria, oh yes I do.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “L. Gordon” <lgordon@anonymous.to>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 8:43:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jonathan
——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

Whether addiction is a lousy concept or not, what you have described sounds like you are well on your way to developing one.

You may want to get some help for it. Whatever help means to you. if only realising that what you’re doing to yourself may not be what you want to be doing or are trying for.

MDMA after some days strait is the same as doing low grade speed. Stop go to sleep or something and then don’t repeat it. You have obviously not made yourself happy. Repeating the cycle again when it brings you to the level of despair you describe sounds suspiciously close like “addiction” to me, whatever you want to call it.

————————————————————
This email was sent through the free email service at http://www.anonymous.to/
To report abuse, please visit our website and click ‘Contact Us.’

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From: “L. Gordon” <lgordon@anonymous.to>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] possible minor corrections 🙂
Date: May 14, 2002 at 8:38:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I will say this without rancor and with little ranting as I can because I do realise going off is a symptom of my own problems.

Patrick yes Dr. Mash is a wonderful, beautiful amazing human being.  _for you_.

I’m sure you do a lot for her, I don’t doubt that at all, no matter what her feelings I don’t think Dr. Mash has 5 seconds of time for anyone who is not very useful to her. But when she goes around introducing you as her son and all, I realised she isn’t kidding. Whatever emotional needs you fulfill for her and she fulfills for you, you have your own very weird relationship that let’s you get away with things that someone else doing that and she’d have them fired in a second.

You talk shit about people you don’t like not behind her back but to her face, she smiles and accepts it. You yell and smash things and throw tantrums, she thinks it’s cute “throwing a Patrick”. You are running a ibogaine list which doesn’t promote her detox and is filled with people who were all on her enemy list less then 2 years ago, now she’s ok with it because you’re doing it. Any “normal” person who looks at Mindvox is concerned about your head, she thinks it’s pretty and mentions it all the time. You were some mess she met 3 years ago and detoxed two or three times off heroin, now you do brains for her.

Patrick what I am trying to get across is your Dr. Mash is not the same one everyone else gets. I don’t know enough about either one of you to say anything about your relationship but let me explain is really easily: she _loves_ you. She doesn’t even _like_ most other people.

————————————————————
This email was sent through the free email service at http://www.anonymous.to/
To report abuse, please visit our website and click ‘Contact Us.’

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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] possible minor corrections 🙂
Date: May 14, 2002 at 4:48:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 01:32:22PM -0700], [vector6@space.com] wrote:

| Patrick, yo!

.:vEcToR:. yo!

| Sweet, sweet, sweet. Nice eye candy. Ibogaine.net rocks dog!

Thank you, I am just That Gifted.

| Some comments.

Some replies.

| It’s impossible to read the link text its so dark.

It’s not finding the .css, which is linked @ *.ibogaine.net.  This was
only changed an hour ago, therefore: wait for your DNS to refresh.  The
.css isn’t really done anyway, I just ripped 10 lines for the scrollbar
and the hovers, offa mINDvOX, which I hafta unrip before Drew FLIES out of
everything.  (Sorry Drew, this NEVER happened, at all.)

| www.ibogaine.net is still going to that lame thing healingvisions.com

See above.  You DNS has to refresh.

| Love the science section and the treatment section. Especially the photo
| captions. my fave are
|
| “getting unsprung”
| “caring staff listening to deranged junkie”

Whoopsie!

| And the daring statement in the science section
|
| “Space Ghost is not a beta carboline” Who wrote that monograph?

He’s NOT!  He’s a Sppppppppppaaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccccccccccccceeeeee
Ghooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooost.  The WORLD needs to be AWARE.

| Dude, you are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo totally baked when you do
| web design aren’t you? 🙂

Those are vicious LIES being spread by my ENEMIES.  Your observations are
completely untrue, and without any merit.  Do you have proof?

| You may want to fix some of that before Dr. Mash has a siezure.

She’s seen it all, and much much, uhm, MORE CREATIVE even.  Deb KNOWS what
time it is, she UNDERSTANDS.

‘Scuse me, gotta fix some stuff.

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 4:41:25 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Robert

I wouldn’t mind it, IF I could afford, but I definitely cannot, AND I hate
constipation
Sorry I don’t have time to say much more, but these are truly my bottom
lines. I don’t get scared of cops; i love a man in uniform! Not scared of
disease – been ill all my life. Not scared of muggers, rapists – been there,
done that. What can I say

I’m not hard, I just did love my dope back then, but I ain’t got time for
Nostaligia huni. If you are thinking so hard on this one, maybe your
body/spirit needs a break from it all. Just a thought

Solidarity from London/U.K

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: robertbosch@softhome.net [mailto:robertbosch@softhome.net]
Sent: 12 May 2002 08:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?

If heroin were legal and you could do it without any legal consequences.
Would you want to be on heroin? I mean with a clear cut choice, you can use
it if you want to and it’s ok, do you want to be a junkie?

I’m not asking because I’m taking a survey, I’m asking because these are
some of the questions I am asking myself right at this moment and wonder
what others on this list may have to say.

I know this is similar to what has been asked but I think there is a crucial

difference. I am not asking if you should have the right to do heroin or
not, I agree with most of the sentiment on this list that it should be
everyone’s own choice. I’m not even asking why you quit. I’m asking if
that’s how you’d like to live?

Thank you

Rob

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] BRAIN DAMAGE TIED TO BAD DRUGS
Date: May 14, 2002 at 4:31:45 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston

I don’t think this was any heavier than most others, but u wouldn’t be the
1st person to infer I can get a bit too serious!!

And Carla B – great name BTW – yeh good point re anybody feel they are
delighted not to be ‘out there’ anymore. (Did I get that right) I think the
truth is, hand on heart, ‘glad I’m not out there, BUT i do miss my ‘dope’
sometimes.’ That’s allowed isn’t it
And thanx for the way you handled the 12-stepping lecturer; I also don’t
understand, but I think what happens is those 1 off shots at (whomever) are
more about ‘unmanageability’ and flipped-outness on one day rather than
vindictive, or deliberate pot-shots (been the victim of such stuff SO many
times; can’t be bothered to address it anymore

Since I left NA, and use a few things now and then, there are a small no of
members who simply do not speak to me when they see me. It does hurt but
(judging by MANY share I heard on this subject in the past) I assume that
means I could pose a threat to them cos my drug use is not a prob 4 me
anymore, and they don’t wanna hear that. Fine. Who knows, I coulda got it
all wrong in the final analysis, but ok just 4 2day, so..

Glad to be able to commune with y’all again; my machine has been so
overloaded 4 the last week, it hasn’t let me send any e’s out!!

bye 4 now

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 11 May 2002 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] BRAIN DAMAGE TIED TO BAD DRUGS

Whew,
This was a heavy reply Andria-
Most of the things you mention in the first paragraph coulda probably been
avoided had heroin actually been sold at the cost of making the durned
stuff, wihtout prohibition tarrifs and penalites driving up the cost
necessitating that never ending search for more.
The second paragraph, yeah, constipation is a bitch. Collapsing veins
too, although it wasn’t until I was banging really dirty cocaine that mine
stopped cooperating, leaving me with those hour long sessions in the park
trying to find a vein and not let everyone know what I was doing. (bleeding
profusely all over the place, I imagine I sorta stuck out a bit). How much
of that sort of consequence could be avoided if people weren’t afraid to
consult their doctors, didn’t have to hide out of sight while getting high?
Speaking for myself, I like to get high, plain and simple. I’ve managed
to focus myself now on those substance that come with the fewest strings
attached. While I wanted to stop the cycle of self-destruction I’d put
myself in, I can’t say I’ve ever wanted to stop getting high, in some way or
other.

Patrick wrote- >What I was living was entirely caused by the “War on Drugs”
not heroin.
Inasmuch as being functional while strung out…  It’s like anything else
I guess.  I function very well on heroin.  I do not function so well
anymore once I’ve started bangin’ speedballs, have been awake for a few
days and am tweaking out.  At that stage I am usually far to pre-occupied
by the Secret Service and their surveillance teams, the FBI planting
microphones under and THEY, THEM, and THOSE PEOPLE, who
are all following me…<

LOL. Hear, hear. Those damned phantom surveillance operations did have a way
of ruining the fun, cramping the buzz.

Patrick wrote this too->Those insects and things that burrow under your skin
and crawl all around
INSIDE your mind, get to be kinda annoying though.<

yep, hence my own not doing cocaine anymore. Yuch.

And this-> The tragedy and beauty of drugs is the fact
that, uhm, they work.  However ya wanna define “work.”  To respin that,
they sure do solve a lot of problems; most of the negative side-effects
tend to be the Armies of Darkness in that War on Drugs movie.  It’s
gettin’ very old, time to switch the channel.<

Again, hear, hear!

And lastly, but certainly not leastly, Brett wrote- >I wanted to quit, many
times, very many times. Why?
Rather simple, drugs were a lot of fun, till they
weren’t and they weren’t a lot longer than they were
fun. In the end all I was getting was a mountain of
sorrows. The hassled by cops, arrested and sold bad
dope (drug war) only made things worse. Jails (hate,
anger, fear) are free and easy to find, help (love,
compassion, acceptance) isn’t. In a lot of ways
society was and still is more broken than I ever was
but I needed to be fixed.<

Hear you on the help, love, compassion, acceptance things. I’m extremely
lucky that way, KNOCK ON WOOD.;-))
I am the first to admit that love and acceptance and the rest were key in my
own stablization. And on the obverse, the ostracization, hate, fear, bad
dope and the rest of the negative side were key in my driving myself so far
under. I needed fixing too, but can’t say that in my own case drugs stopped
being fun, only certain drugs and their prohibitionist side effects for the
most part, (other than for those durned uncooperative veins) stopped being
fun.
Thanks for the feedback.
Now excuse me, I gotta go make another cup of coffee, have a cigerette,
smoke a bowl, and think some more about this.
Happy Saturday.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 12:34 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] BRAIN DAMAGE TIED TO BAD DRUGS

Good question Preston, and one which is a little complicated to answer

If I hadn’t felt compelled to sell sex to men I really didn’t (even) wanna
look at sometimes (not to mention be intimate with), sold dope to a few
teenagers, shot up with very dysfunctional needles, been arrested and
abused
by cops, then further humiliated in rehab, would I still have wanted to
give
up? Not to mention the suffering it caused those that loved me..

Mmh, here’s the rub: how do I know, I was never in that position.

I can say that I would prefer not to have to experience constipation for
my
whole life, so MAYBE the answer is yes I wanted to quit, but it’s a tough
one. Let me put it this way, I’m glad today that I don’t wake up and
immediately have to prepare a shot into veins that no longer work. Blimey
Larmey! – you’ve really knocked me out asking this question: I feel like I
could be hiding a painful truth, like, WHO THE F WANTS TO STOP ANYWAY?
Ouch!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 09 May 2002 11:52
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] BRAIN DAMAGE TIED TO BAD DRUGS

Legalization might solve this problem.
Out of curiosity, how many former addicts, (junkies, hard core users,
whatever you want to call it) here actually wanted to quit drugs, or
rather
wanted to quit getting hassled by cops, and arrested, and sold bad dope?
I’m very interested in feedback on this one.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] BRAIN DAMAGE TIED TO BAD DRUGS

Pubdate: Tue, 07 May 2002
Source: Province, The (CN BC)
Webpage:

http://canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=DFBA9897-F4F1-4B66-BA13-A79FEAFB2
B1E
Copyright: 2002 The Province
Contact: provletters@pacpress.southam.ca
Website: http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/476
Author: Don Harrison

DEATHS, BRAIN DAMAGE TIED TO BAD DRUGS

Two people have died and two more will be mentally damaged for life
after
smoking a bad batch of heroin or cocaine.

The four, all Vancouver males, were struck in the past few months by an
often-fatal condition called heroin-induced toxic leukoencephalopathy.
The
condition, easily confirmed by a CT scan, is untreatable and causes
death
or permanent brain damage.

“The public should know about this,” Dr. John Blatherwick, chief medical
health officer of the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority, said
yesterday.

The initial symptoms are often difficulty in speaking or walking. Family
members or friends who notice such behaviour should advise any user to
seek
immediate medical attention, said Blatherwick.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n878.a04.html
Webpage:
http://canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=DFBA9897-F4F1-4B66-BA13-A79
FEAFB2B1E

——————————

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] possible minor corrections 🙂
Date: May 14, 2002 at 4:32:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, yo! Sweet, sweet, sweet. Nice eye candy. Ibogaine.net rocks dog! Some comments. It’s impossible to read the link text its so dark. www.ibogaine.net is still going to that lame thing healingvisions.com Love the science section and the treatment section. Especially the photo captions. my fave are “getting unsprung” “caring staff listening to deranged junkie” And the daring statement in the science section “Space Ghost is not a beta carboline” Who wrote that monograph? Dude, you are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo totally baked when you do web design aren’t you? 🙂 You may want to fix some of that before Dr. Mash has a siezure. .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 2:52:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Looks like andriol is some kind of steroid but what
the hell is deca?

Anaboline Deca-Durabolin (I think)

steroidinformation.com/profiles.htm

The only negative I have to say about all these
conversations is nobody has
yet said they didn’t like heroin and quit because
it stopped working for
them. Dammit, give me more black and white
answers. 🙂

OK, I quit heroin because it stopped working for me.
Actually I never was a big junk user, it pretty much
went with the coke and I didn’t use it extensively
otherwise. I don’t think it would make much difference
if H was legal or not, it wouldn’t change my use (or
non-use) of it these days. I have had it with drugs,
it is old and tired, burned up, done with, over. Does
that mean I will never try some again, of course not –
as they say in those xA meetings, one day at a time.
Would I become addicted to H even if I tried it,
ABSOLUTELY NOT and I can say that because I never
managed to get myself addicted to the stuff. Fact is
though I doubt I would like it much if at all. But, I
am an addict and to keep things in perspective I don’t
remember when I liked alcohol last but that didn’t
stop me from drinking the stuff or relapsing once I
was sober.

Post Ibo for me initially was like: I feel so
empowered I think I’ll skip any
sort of follow up plan, I just feel IMMORTAL right
now. The sun was very
fucking huge, the clouds were extremely fluffy and I
had this feeling I could
reach out and touch them all. Then all that faded, I
felt very depressed
because I had just gotten as intimate as one
possibly can with Gawd and it all
just faded away. Or became less “there” in the
forefront of my perception.

A pretty text-book post ibo experience. That IBO-GLOW
was far better than any H I ever did – to me.

Funny thing happened to me and in part I am sure it is
the ibo – but without the ibo. There are so many
sayings and concepts I have come across that are deep
with meaning, all those AA phrases, ZEN, Veda,
Kabbala, the meaning of life and all that. Sure I
understood them and post ibogaine, geez I knew more
about what LIFE is all about than anyone, I was not
just spiritual I was a spirit. Now, lately a bunch of
crap has been eating at me. Why the hell am I having
these (bad) reactions to pain meds and a lot of lifes
review going through my head with all the regrets and
questions of WHY, WHY, WHY did I do what I did when I
did it. It didn’t even sound like a “good idea” at the
time (taken from a sane perspective) and I did it, did
it again and did it over again or switched to
something else once I got my fill of getting beaten up
that way. So, a couple days ago I had this spiritual
thingie going on, somewhat ibo-like, that I have been
going around the circle (of life) kicking and
screaming, doing everything but look at the path in
front of me, looking at all the have-nots and
lost-thats, the waste (lately anyway) of time, effort,
loved ones, to the side, standing on the side looking
at everyone else going around the circle… I was
fighting life, not living it and my head was singing
tunes of disharmony, this problem, that noise and god
forbid I was actually alone with myself. Suddenly I
became aware to the point I started rejecting certain
thoughts and actions (as in taking ACTION, doing
things, not NOT doing bad things) that were contrary
to peace of mind, as in WHY THE HELL AM I WASTING THAT
ENERGY ON FOCUSING ON THAT (whatever THAT happened to
be) when I have all these good things in front of me.
What it seems to be is a picking up of where I left
off (in relapse) about 4 years ago when I was doing a
6/7th step. As with ibo it is very hard to describe, a
single thought that can fill volumes with meaning and
not come close. The next day I woke up with this
(mild) ibo-like-glow and keep getting these messages
about what I am doing, keep correcting myself, seeing
things a bit differently, more positive. See, even
though I was clean/sober I stopped and was not moving
forward (fast enough, not with all the right things)
and now it seems like I am (again).  Another thing
that happened was my physical pain level went down – I
was not one to feed into it or “create” it, wallow in
it… so I didn’t think I was doing it (allowing it?).
It is more a sense of being more acutely aware of what
is going on, what effect it has on me and where I am
going. Cool!

One more thing about using H. IF I were to use (and
actually like it) I would not become a “junkie” but
might do a bit several times a year (it is a great
pain killer!). I really couldn’t see myself doing any
more, getting back into the lifestyle or anything like
that. This does of course assume that while on the way
to the dope dealer I didn’t pick up some coke (hummm,
speed balls… maybe just this once…). It would be a
set-up and no matter how you twist it, some way,
somehow it is going to get you and for me it ain’t the
H but the H that will bring me to the C.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 1:14:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Talk about images with words. Repeating what’s already been said wow!
Dumb questions, what is mitraginine, deca, andriol?

Looks like andriol is some kind of steroid but what the hell is deca?

mitragynine: http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_info1.shtml

The only negative I have to say about all these conversations is nobody has
yet said they didn’t like heroin and quit because it stopped working for
them. Dammit, give me more black and white answers. 🙂

Part of me actually feels that a bit but when i sit here and really think about
it its like, DAMN I LOVE HEROIN! It works quite well for stuffing all the
unpleasantries that living in this society has to offer, not to mention THAT
NOISE in my head. And of course best of all that warm creeping EUPHORIA,
pleasant drifting and nodding with cigarette and listening to groovy sounds of
Miles Davis. Coming out of a nod trying to figure out what that conversation I
just had with myself was all about.

But given the nature of prohibition I had to gravitate to all the cool and
exciting methods of finding ways and means to get more, then there was the
occasional overdose and watching people die and lets see… destroying my veins
from shooting the only available dope Black Tar… and the constipation. I mean
fucking BOULDERS, I don’t miss that. Purple swollen hands and arms, cold bones,
cockroaches, violence, unsanitary conditions, l-o-n-g waiting at the clinic,
discrimination in the emergency room – jeez the list goes on regarding the
places we go to maintain a habit. And oh yeah did I forget that in the end it
was just about getting well and the warm fuzzy feeling was far and few in
between?

Doing all sorts of drugs from the age of 11 on, I was mostly fond of
psychedelics. Mainly because of my visual artist orientation. the occasional
bottle of demerol, percodan, etc was ALWAYS enjoyed to the fullest. But when I
tried dope, it was like WOW. I’d seen enough of the funnels filled with eyes,
multicolored tubes and watching gawd write my name in the stars. I just wanted
to GET DOWN with this dark seductress. Not to mention that just about every
artist/musician/writer that I really dug was into dope… so there had been
this long awaited fascination with dope.

So its really no surprise that to escape/pause/arrest this narcotic HELL I had
gotten myself into that the answer would come from the root bark of a plant
with “psychedelic” qualities. – Oh child of the stars open your eyes to the
light, lets drift down memory lane and sift thru the wreckage and connect the
dots. I clearly remember in the middle of the ibo experience a STRONG craving
for a hit of dope. not that I was in acute withdrawal, but the longing for that
WOMB-LIKE environment.

Post Ibo for me initially was like: I feel so empowered I think I’ll skip any
sort of follow up plan, I just feel IMMORTAL right now. The sun was very
fucking huge, the clouds were extremely fluffy and I had this feeling I could
reach out and touch them all. Then all that faded, I felt very depressed
because I had just gotten as intimate as one possibly can with Gawd and it all
just faded away. Or became less “there” in the forefront of my perception.

Lets see, they say my brain has been set to a pre-addictive state? I wonder
what its like to take a vicodin. oops, there’s only half of one left. hey, WOW,
feeling 1/2 a vicodin? this is AMAZING. Lets experiment with some weed.
zshrooom wowowowowowowow vsroink. phew, man am I WASTED! which inevitably led
me to copping and I’ve told that story before but at 4 months out the Ibo was
still working on a spiritual level because I KNEW that it was over, it was time
to get on living instead of flirting with this DEATH type thing.

But in reference to the subject of this thread I never woke up one day and said
I want to be a junkie when I grow up. It just sort of happened and there were
times when I loved it with all the trappings of the underground, and then there
was the cold reality of where it all had taken me and I guess there was another
path waiting for me because here i am rambling in ascii text.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 12:30:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Since we’re already way off-topic in terms of the usual
where-are-YOUR-collapsed-veins? smack-talk, I must briefly vent on what I
feel is a completely overrated garbage drug, MDMA:

(Oh, don’t get me wrong – the first ten times or so are completely nifty,
but after that, I’d just as soon see a vaccination that prevents you from
feelings its effects in order to save a lot of heartache.)

To wit: for the past 48 hours, I have been unable to move.  I missed work
yesterday, so weak because I cannot eat, and I could not sleep despite
administering something like 80 mg of diazepam over a 24 hour period.

I feel spaced out in a manner that has absolutely no parallel.  Something
about the serotonin depletion mixed with amphetamine overstimulation
causes a drain on the body and mind that could only be remotely compared
to 48 hour meth binge.  DUH.  I’d like to think about what is actually
going on my brain right now, but I couldn’t remember what an axon
terminal, neuron, or axon hillock is to save my life.

This drug has got to be the greatest deceiver of any known drug.  I can’t
imagine what it was like during those first harrowing weeks of known
heroin addiction, but I’d guess that most of you knew what you were
getting into to some degree.  MDMA is like this “Oh this is so great,
there’s no parallel between this and any other hard drugs.”  The worst is
that there’s a class of very intelligent people out there who seem
oblivious to its negative effects; I’d like to have the Shulgins
experience some of the things I’ve experienced and conjecture about what
legalized psychedelics would really do for the soul of consumerized
America.  It’s just one more escape mechanism, a
way for working-class stiffs to be “entertained” and put their heart and
soul into what is inherently a fruitless, worthless endeavor while they
cannot see the forest for the trees.

Let me also ‘fess up and say this was a particularly bad experience.  I am
a very social person, but I cannot have a conversation about some “Xbox”
game where “dude, you like have all these spells, and these armies of
monsters, then you let them loose and it causes, like, TOTAL HAVOC, man, I
spent a year doing nothing but playing this game” (hence, the reason
you’re such a DUMB-ASS)… oh, I also got to hear about how his MIDI
studio is so “dope”, “so I like take five sounds, and layer ’em over one
another, and it makes like this boom-tsh-boom-tsh-booooom-tsh-wikka-wikka
like sweeping noise, you know”

Evidently me reclining on an La-Z-Boy with eyes closed wasn’t enough to
deter this fellow, who kept TALKING MY FUCKING EAR OFF for no less than
two hours, following me around to three discrete locations in the house.
Some “empathogen”; give this fucker 10 mg of Xanax and 6-pack of Coors,
please.

I know psychedelics have done a lot of good for me personally, but I have
finally come to the awful realization that all they are – and this goes
for all drugs – is really a false panacea for the masses, another
consumer-oriented form of entertainment a la professional sports, summer
blockbusters, etc.  Just work your shitty job, don’t question the
overarching power structure and authority, pour your hopes and dreams into
some ridiculous fantasy of making it big as an (actor, DJ, etc.).  In the
meantime, you can get baked and play your PS2.  It was particularly
depressing to have to hear my friend’s beautiful wife spill her guts about
how she doesn’t want to move back East, but feels the need to be the
diligent wife while her husband tries to make it big in the music
industry.  Later that night, I found her passed out on the floor in the
bathroom; she insisted she was “all right” and I helped her upstairs, and
then she started sobbing uncontrollably – what a nice, “chill” psychedelic
vibe, huh?  “Just smoke another bowl dude, that’ll mellow you out.”

Jonathan
——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“Addiction is a lousy concept.”
-John C. Lilly
——————————————-

On Sun, 12 May 2002, preston peet wrote:

Hey all, one more thing-
I forgot to include marijuana and shroom-type stuff in my list of preferred
substances over alcohol and pharmaceuticals.
Pot particularly helped me mightily to realign my thinking on drug use
and abuse, and stabilize. The others, well, they help me occasionally
realign in general.
I also suspect I wouldn’t do heroin, but rather might occasionally like
a bowl of opium. Even on that I’m not entirely sure. I don’t have a lot of
time to get wiped out, and I would get wiped out trying to get to a point
where I could do heroin and be sociable and functional due to lack of
tolerance now. Difficult question to answer firmly in the current
environment of prohibition. Hard to imagine a different way occurring at
this time of treating people and drugs than how we do now.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?

If heroin were legal and you could do it without any legal consequences.
Would you want to be on heroin? I mean with a clear cut choice, you can
use
it if you want to and it’s ok, do you want to be a junkie? <

Hmmm, hi Rob, (for those with limited patience or bandwidth, this one is a
little long.)
Good question.
(think, think, tapping head, think, think)
What’s a junkie?
Are people junkies because we tell them they are, because we treat
them
as such, because they are cut off from the rest of society at this time?
Or
does heroin alone turn them into junkies?
Since it isn’t legal now, I’m not sure how I’d feel if it were, nor
how
I would react if it became so. It’s been a while, and the last time I
tried
some, I wasn’t all that impressed with the resulting headache and throwing
up. Of course, I did it alone, (trying to hide it for the evening, LOL,
like
that was even remotely possible with my billboard eyes, which would have
given me away had I not been passed out naked and sick, already giving
away
the fact that I was messed up when V got home long before I opened my
pinned, glazed eyes), bought it from some person I’d never met, much less
ever seen before so had no idea what it was cut with, and already felt
guilt
(bad junkie!) for even buying it, much less shooting it.
I can’t remember his name right now, but who was that very famous
American surgeon who shot morphine all his life? I think he’s known as the
father of American surgery, but I could be mistaken. Ahhh, here is is-

http://www.addictinthefamily.org/chapsix.html
Dr William Stewart Halsted (1852 – 1922) is known as the father of
American
surgery. He pioneered the cancer saving operation, the mastectomy, at a
time
when cure from the disease was unknown. He popularised the use of rubber
gloves in the operating theatres and introduced several other important
advances in surgical technique including improved blood transfusion. He
used
daily morphine for most of his long life.<

Again, hmmm, more thinking.
Looking at the medical evidence, were it legal, I’d pick heroin, (or
opiates
of any kind) over any other drug, ANY, the pharmaceutical companies offer
me, any alcohol the booze pushers push at me, and over strict sobriety. If
I
were guarenteed it wouldn’t become illegal again, I just might use heroin.
Of course, I am only speaking for myself, and I am not one hundred percent
sure if I would definitely use it. Unfortunately, I do not see that
becoming
a choice in the near, or even far future, in this country anyway.
Maybe I have a chemical imbalance. Maybe I’d be self-medicating. Maybe
I’d be using a substance that if not sold by unlicensed dealers who cut it
with shit I’d be using one of the safest, cleanest, most effective drugs
humanity has ever known, that nature ever provided us. I certainly
wouldn’t
think of myself as a junkie. I’d be a human being who takes heroin
regularly. Sorta like insulin, except it’d get me somewhat higher.

From “Animals and Psychedelics”, by Giorgio Samorini-
“If we think of drugging oneself in terms of dependence and addiction, we
might define a drug as something that creates in its user a strong
behavioral dependence, the deprevation of which brings on an obvious
crisis
of withdrawal. But then food too would conform to such a definition, since
it something upon which we are continually dependent, the deprivation of
which induces the most evident and critical withdrawal of all- hunger
leading to eventual starvation….
[then he points out cultures, such as various tribes in the Amazonia who
use
drugs illegal here, yet consider what we’ve given them, cigarettes and
tobacco, as drugs, but not the substances they already use of their own,
like coca and native tobaccos, and ayhuasca- forgive my inability to spell
that spontaneously- P.]
“…From all this we can deduce that the definition of what constitues a
drug is dependent on its encompassing culture. Even the effects of drugs
are
influenced by the cultural environment in which they are experienced. For
this reason it is extremely difficult to formulate a scientific and
general
definition of the concepts ‘drug’ and ‘drugged’. It is also probable that
some of these difficulties are reinforced by an excess of generalization
regarding the ‘drug phenomenon’; that is to say, many behavioral phenomena
are forced together under this umbrella concept, when in reality they are
sharply distinct from it…
“Returning to the human arena, we must take into account the fact that all
human behaviors, including the primary functions of nutrition and
reproduction, are mediated by culture.
Having identified a natural component in the human impulse to take
drugs- by observing the same impulses made manifest in the animal kingdom,
[as if humans are seperate from the animal world-P], the problems linked
to
human drug use must be found in the cultural component that mediates this
behavior. In other words, the ‘drug phenomenon’ is a natural phenomenon,
while the ‘drug problem’ is a cultural problem.
The drug problem in modern society is not so much due to the existence
of drugs, or the natural impulse to take them as to the deculturization of
the human approach to them. To ensure that human drug use does not debase
itself and become ‘bestial’, it is important that it, like all other human
behaviors, be mediated by appropriate cultural understanding and
knowledge.
DEPRIVING THE INDIVIDUAL AND HIS OR HER SOCIETY OF THIS KNOWLEDGE- AN
UNDERSTANDING, ABOVE ALL, OF HOW TO USE DRUGS AND IN WHICH CONTEXTS THEIR
USE IS APPROPRIATE- PAVES THE WAY FOR IMPROPER APPROACH AND USE, AND
CONSEQUENTLY, FOR THE DRUG PROBLEM.” [my emphasis- P]

So, to answer your question, if the society I live in didn’t ostacize me,
(at least, any more than already, LOL), think me evil and treat me so for
doing so, I MIGHT do heroin. I still wonder how much of my ‘junkie’
behavior
stemmed from me acting how I was told all my life I was supposed to act on
heroin. I seriously doubt I’d be out committing crime, and selling myself,
and all those other abhorent things one sometimes must do to obtain their
drugs of choice today, were it legal. It wasn’t ever the drug itself that
I
wanted away from, (I’ve recently firmly decided, and have always
suspected),
but rather the Armies of Darkness, to borrow Patrick’s borrowed phrase. Of
course, for me, and I speak for myself only, cocaine, that other
boogiedrug
of today, is a no-no, and I have absolutely no desire for that one. But
then, I don’t descriminate against those who do use it, I merely keep an
eye
on my money, and my back when they’re around, and personally try to avoid
their company. Even were it legal, I’d stay away from that one.
Hope this wasn’t too long, or non-commital.
Peace, and no judgements,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <robertbosch@softhome.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 3:54 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?

If heroin were legal and you could do it without any legal consequences.
Would you want to be on heroin? I mean with a clear cut choice, you can
use
it if you want to and it’s ok, do you want to be a junkie?

I’m not asking because I’m taking a survey, I’m asking because these are
some of the questions I am asking myself right at this moment and wonder
what others on this list may have to say.

I know this is similar to what has been asked but I think there is a
crucial
difference. I am not asking if you should have the right to do heroin or
not, I agree with most of the sentiment on this list that it should be
everyone’s own choice. I’m not even asking why you quit. I’m asking if
that’s how you’d like to live?

Thank you

Rob

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 14, 2002 at 1:42:31 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Have to throw in my two cents again… If I could do opiates and retain the power of choice, I would gladly indulge for the rest of my life.  I agree with some others’ sentiments that no experience that I’ve ever encountered beats an opiate high. Opiates have always been my only drug of choice, even tho I’ve tried most others.  I’ve never experienced any better feeling than my own batch of opium tea gave me.  It’s just that at some point, (and it doesn’t take very long anymore)  I don’t get to choose when I get high and maybe because it IS such a great feeling that everything else pales in comparison,  so that the “feeling” becomes the obsession and nothing else is much fun anymore without it.  Then I start feeling like a whore to it and I don’t like that a bit.  If I were a slave but was treated in the best manner possible, I would still choose freedom.  Ibogaine has never taken away my desire to use opiates, but it somehow cracked open the “choice” door, and with some effort I can seem to keep it open at least so far.  So for me it’s just a decision to choose freedom over being a high-class slave.  I agree that it’s not a right or wrong issue, just what works for you…
Best wishes to you folks out there,   Sandy                     

>From: robertbosch@softhome.net

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Subject: [ibogaine] who wants to be a junkie?

>Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 01:54:01 -0600

>

>

>If heroin were legal and you could do it without any legal

>consequences. Would you want to be on heroin? I mean with a clear

>cut choice, you can use it if you want to and it’s ok, do you want

>to be a junkie?

>

>I’m not asking because I’m taking a survey, I’m asking because these

>are some of the questions I am asking myself right at this moment

>and wonder what others on this list may have to say.

>

>I know this is similar to what has been asked but I think there is a

>crucial difference. I am not asking if you should have the right to

>do heroin or not, I agree with most of the sentiment on this list

>that it should be everyone’s own choice. I’m not even asking why you

>quit. I’m asking if that’s how you’d like to live?

>

>Thank you

>

>Rob

Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Now this is cool.
Date: May 13, 2002 at 11:31:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Highly neato:

http://www.christiansforcannabis.com/

Yeah mahn, YOU TELL THEM.  The J man was a long-haired stoner freak mahn.
Woo hoo!

All kidding aside, this is a pretty sane, semi-informative, non-ranting
site.  What’re the odds.

Patrick

These guys are pushing Methadone. Tell <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au> about Ibogaine.

Real Christians (as we all know) are inspired by the religious
implications of the current restoration of our lost knowledge of the
Tree of Life in this regard, and recognize it as a Sign and a Portent.

Dana/cnw

At 2:34 PM -0500 1/31/99, D.H. wrote:
Nick Sandberg wrote:

My experience with the root bark extract was so rooted in Christian
mythology, it’s hard for me to disregard a connection. I experienced,
first hand, my immortal self, [not the same as achieving Physical
Immortality]. I became aware that Iboga might be the sacred substance
alluded to in many fundamental Christian works. And often referred to as
the Blood of Christ [perhaps the Host is better], Holy Grail, etc.

What’s particularly interesting is that I was previously unaware of any
religious connection. And, prior to ingestion, regarded Ibogaine as
merely an interesting drug with potential for “trauma release”, and
addiction control. The mystical awakening I recieved was a bolt from the
blue!

Likewise in my experience. it was actually the last thing I was
expecting, since I had turned my back on religion long ago. I did have
some preconcieved notions about Ibogaine experiences, which did play a
small part. Like the Bwiti notion of “Meeting your ancestors”; what that
became for me was to “see” my past lives: the actual faces of them. And
the constant companionship of a Dis-embodied voice of whom I choose to
call God.

Having done many psychedelics, I am convinced that Ibogaine is a sacred
substance, that it IS a sacrament. no hit of lsd or mushroom or cactus
came close to where Ibogaine took me. Period. Everything I experienced
during the Ibogaine I had already experienced, the Ibogaine “trip” was
just what I call the “remembering”. It seemed to me that I was eating
from the “tree of knowledge”. The whole enchilada: reincarnation,
transformation from physical to soul, unity with the universe,
cosmic/sacred geometry, light versus darkness and the list goes on.

which leads me to chant: IBOGA IBOGA IBOGA I WILL BEGIN AGAIN!!!

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Now this is cool.
Date: May 13, 2002 at 6:29:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Highly neato:

http://www.christiansforcannabis.com/

Yeah mahn, YOU TELL THEM.  The J man was a long-haired stoner freak mahn.
Woo hoo!

All kidding aside, this is a pretty sane, semi-informative, non-ranting
site.  What’re the odds.

Patrick

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 13, 2002 at 12:06:46 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have one question which I forgot to ask. I’m guessing the place you went to in Thailand is thamkrabok, which is what that photograph on mindvox says. Looking up thamkrabok there are a few nice pages of healing heroin addicts and great success and all this, but there are nearly all surrounded by news reports of that place as “drug infested hellhole” “army sent to thamkrabok again” “thamkrabok closed by government” It is drug dealer central, that’s somewhere near the air america heroin factory inside the pepsi plant, that entire area is heroin central. It’s not my business so you don’t have to answer me directly, but did you have other plans when you went there, which changed when you did manage to do what you did? I don’t understand why anyone would go there of all places to clean up. Sounds crazier then most things. What do I know .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 12, 2002 at 11:41:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Somebody needs to fix yahoo. All I have from their servers are double or triple copies of all messages sent to anywhere. For almost a week now. From all accounts that aren’t popping mail. .:vector:. On Sun, 12 May 2002, Carla Barnes wrote
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 12, 2002 at 11:37:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This was beautiful.
Talk about images with words. Repeating what’s already been said wow!
Dumb questions, what is mitraginine, deca, andriol?
The only negative I have to say about all these conversations is nobody has yet said they didn’t like heroin and quit because it stopped working for them. Dammit, give me more black and white answers. 🙂
I’m not being serious, this was one that left my ibogaine mailbox and went to my printer.
Carla B

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Sun, May 12, 2002 at 01:35:40PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| Hey all, one more thing-
| I forgot to include marijuana and shroom-type stuff in my list of preferred
| substances over alcohol and pharmaceuticals.
| Pot particularly helped me mightily to realign my thinking on drug use
| and abuse, and stabilize. The others, well, they help me occasionally
| realign in general.

Yeah, this is why I go to church every 4-6 weeks max… I need to realign
and re-tune myself. No matter where I think I am, if it’s been more than
a couple of weeks between doses of sacrament from Saint Hofmann, then I
find that I’ve drifted out a lot further and need to have the cosmic
sledgehammer shatter all the armor and ego and other crap which has built
up; and left to my own devices I would apparently keep building, each
layer taking me further and further away from what I really am, and what I
want to flow through me.

There are much more gentle and consistent ways to accomplish this I would
suspect; rather than holding a chemical howitzer to your head — to a cop
a line from that Popular Science guy, which I found amusing, though he was
talking ’bout ibogaine, not LSD — 5-10mg, complete and utter annihilation
here we go! z000m…

| I also suspect I wouldn’t do heroin, but rather might occasionally like
| a bowl of opium. Even on that I’m not entirely sure. I don’t have a lot of
| time to get wiped out, and I would get wiped out trying to get to a point
| where I could do heroin and be sociable and functional due to lack of
| tolerance now. Difficult question to answer firmly in the current
| environment of prohibition. Hard to imagine a different way occurring at
| this time of treating people and drugs than how we do now.

Yeah I think that too… I’ve only done opium a few times, and haven’t
really felt it in probably over a decade, ‘cuz when some well-intentioned
hash dealing kinda guy would come up with, “do0d! I’ve got Opium! It’s
so great!” I would try it and never feel anything, because duh, I’m
strung-out; but that didn’t stop me from TRYING — after all everybody
likes to hold up charts and graphs and things, and EXPLAIN why you can’t
get high if you’re on enough methadone: booshit…

I think what it all comes down to is… If I am — at that particular
moment — trapped within that consensual reality hallucination we’re
sharing, and sunk into darwinism; then if it comes down to a choice
between all kinds of Pretty ShinY th!ngs, money, props, status, cars, all
that hit and miss shit which barely tweaks the right receptors before
doing a fade: i’ll just as soon hit the fast-forward button to the part
where I INJECT. Thank you, I’ll pass on all that and go directly to
heroin please.

Now if I was stuck in that headspace all, or even most of the time, I
wouldn’t be clean right now… It just wouldn’t work; because in that
scenario heroin pretty much beats everything, what are we even talking
about? I mean many things release tension… But even on that score, the
greatest release of tension I have ever felt in my life on a purely
physical basis, is bangin’ up when you’re dopesick… Whoah… Talk
about a religious experience; hell to heaven in ’bout 7 seconds. Sex has
got nothin’ on that. Nothing in reality has anything on that…

The thing is… entheogens, whatever you wanna call ’em, from the most
gentle and mild ones like marijuana, to what I’d call the middleground:
that being ibogaine, to LSD, which for me is IT… There is no other
substance that exists, where you can dose yourself to such intense levels
of amplification, without killing yourself out on a physical basis. It is
simply completely impossible to attain anything approaching what you hit
on let’s say 8-10mg of LSD… Doing enough ibogaine to even begin
touching that, and you’d be dead, a few hundred times over… And even
that in itself is another mind-trip, because amplification and intensity
don’t necessarily have much of anything to do with anything, but it’s
taking me years of real-time to re-arrive at that realization… numbness
and absolute amplification, both lead to eventual self-annihilation using
different routes to get there…

One extreme would be simply OD’ing, and slowly unravelling into warm dark
waves of oblivion… Which has always seemed like a great way to die…
The other being dosing yourself with let’s say 100mg (not mcg) of LSD, and
being at ground zero when an atomic bomb hits… “Just go into the
light!” Uhm, is there anything else?

Anywhere short of those two extreme polar opposites, which paradoxically,
of course, and like everything else, wind up in the same place; and you’re
eventually going to fall from that state, back into consensual reality…

And therein is one helluva difference… Falling out of Godhead, what I
can be, what I really am, into what I am on a day to day basis, hurts…
A lot… Because reaching that level, maintaining it, living within it,
is not some insurmountable goal… It’s just like being awake to the fact
that you’re half-asleep — at best — most of the time… It sorta sucks
to fall from that back into consensual reality… But usually all that
happens is I have a lot of new toys to play with inside my mind, and
cross-connect in different ways, and have a beautiful afterglow which
lasts for days, or sometimes weeks…

Whereas coming back to consensual reality from heroin, is a lot more like
crawling out of a sewer that’s filled with shit and blood and razor
blades, and just trying to make it to daylight one more time…

To summarize it in as simple and un-existential manner as I can right at
this moment anyway… Entheogens strip away the magical curtain and
eventually land you in that place called truth… Giving you very
different insights into who and WHAT you are, and what “reality” is…

Heroin serves as an extremely strong reminder, that there simply is
nothing in consensual reality, that gets as good as heroin.

I don’t think either is right nor wrong, only right or wrong for a given
person, at a given moment in time. It’s just a question of which game you
want to play.

Would you like the Red Pill or the Blue Pill…?

Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] List Commands and Options
Date: May 12, 2002 at 11:30:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Looks good to me 😉
Carla B
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Sat, May 11, 2002 at 07:45:12PM -0700], [Carla Barnes] wrote:

| Patrick thanks,
| One comment, you haven’t filled out any of the faq, info, about,
| headers, footers, anything files.
| You could do that you know 😉
| Carla B

Okay, here it is: the headers/footers/faq/info/about file(s) all smooshed
together into one informative piece:

– – – – – – – – –

List Hosted by the Scientist in Outer Space, on XNEON (which is an
asteroid orbiting Mars, it’s just that type of thing). For Customer
Support, please contact: Buenos Aires, Argentina (planet Earth), and give
information the code phrase, “RedBull.”

You will be summoned at 3:33am by a Spirit Guide in the form of your
Power Animal, who will pass out loose joints, provide thoughtful insights,
and hand you an autographed copy of Valis, with a SekreT Treasure Map inside
it. (Do the Right Thing, don’t look at the map — this is merely a trick
to fool the uninitiated — just digest it.)

– – – – – – – – –

Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: robertbosch@softhome.net
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 12, 2002 at 11:23:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick and Preston, Gamma, I wanted to say thank you.
I am surprised at the responses from all of you. Not so much the sentiments but the way you present it. This is a very strange list, it goes from some combination of name calling and fighting between people I don’t know and issues I don’t understand to extremely high content.
Patrick thanks. What you wrote here is the first thing I have ever read from any of the ‘love and light’ psychedelic people which I have ever related to. Whenever I read any of these materials I am always struck by how both the author and myself are human but live in different worlds which don’t look like they have any common ground.
What you wrote just connected my reality, to the ones you and they are talking about.
That was excellent.
Thanks again
Rob

Carrie Rollins writes:
Patrick all I have to say is wow! This list is great, that person who wrote that long sarcastic letter with some of the greatest thoughts being on here with dysfunctional people may have been mean but that part was right. I love all the different people on here, I always see something that’s new or unexpected.  I really enjoy yours and Preston’s conversations because you are conversing and it’s great! I almost never see that, when people type 20 long paragraphs, they are almost always talking at each other, not to each other. Big difference. Many of the people who write in here are awesome.  This was amazing. You left the planet as you guys so often do, but then you connected all of it and came back down to the planet. I am still trying to hold everything you described in my head right now and have a big smile on my face, that is what’s it’s all about isn’t it. Red pill or blue pill. Whatever you’re on or wherever you are in your head, go there more often! 🙂 -carrie   “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Sun, May 12, 2002 at 01:35:40PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote: | Hey all, one more thing-
| I forgot to include marijuana and shroom-type stuff in my list of preferred
| substances over alcohol and pharmaceuticals.
| Pot particularly helped me mightily to realign my thinking on drug use
| and abuse, and stabilize. The others, well, they help me occasionally
| realign in general. Yeah, this is why I go to church every 4-6 weeks max… I need to realign
and re-tune myself. No matter where I think I am, if it’s been more than
a couple of weeks between doses of sacrament from Saint Hofmann, then I
find that I’ve drifted out a lot further and need to have the cosmic
sledgehammer shatter all the armor and ego and other crap which has built
up; and left to my own devices I would apparently keep building, each
layer taking me further and further away from what I really am, and what I
want to flow through me.  There are much more gentle and consistent ways to accomplish this I would
suspect; rather than holding a chemical howitzer to your head — to a cop
a line from that Popular Science guy, which I found amusing, though he was
talking ’bout ibogaine, not LSD — 5-10mg, complete and utter annihilation
here we go! z000m… | I also suspect I wouldn’t do heroin, but rather might occasionally like
| a bowl of opium. Even on that I’m not entirely sure. I don’t have a lot of
| time to get wiped out, and I would get wiped out trying to get to a point
| where I could do heroin and be sociable and functional due to lack of
| tolerance now. Difficult question to answer firmly in the current
| environment of prohibition. Hard to imagine a different way occurring at
| this time of treating people and drugs than how we do now. Yeah I think that too… I’ve only done opium a few times, and haven’t
really felt it in probably over a decade, ‘cuz when some well-intentioned
hash dealing kinda guy would come up with, “do0d! I’ve got Opium! It’s
so great!” I would try it and never feel anything, because duh, I’m
strung-out; but that didn’t stop me from TRYING — after all everybody
likes to hold up charts and graphs and things, and EXPLAIN why you can’t
get high if you’re on enough methadone: booshit…  I think what it all comes down to is… If I am — at that particular
moment — trapped within that consensual reality hallucination we’re
sharing, and sunk into darwinism; then if it comes down to a choice
between all kinds of Pretty ShinY th!ngs, money, props, status, cars, all
that hit and miss shit which barely tweaks the right receptors before
doing a fade: i’ll just as soon hit the fast-forward button to the part
where I INJECT. Thank you, I’ll pass on all that and go directly to
heroin please. Now if I was stuck in that headspace all, or even most of the time, I
wouldn’t be clean right now… It just wouldn’t work; because in that
scenario heroin pretty much beats everything, what are we even talking
about? I mean many things release tension… But even on that score, the
greatest release of tension I have ever felt in my life on a purely
physical basis, is bangin’ up when you’re dopesick… Whoah… Talk
about a religious experience; hell to heaven in ’bout 7 seconds. Sex has
got nothin’ on that. Nothing in reality has anything on that… The thing is… entheogens, whatever you wanna call ’em, from the most
gentle and mild ones like marijuana, to what I’d call the middleground:
that being ibogaine, to LSD, which for me is IT… There is no other
substance that exists, where you can dose yourself to such intense levels
of amplification, without killing yourself out on a physical basis. It is
simply completely impossible to attain anything approaching what you hit
on let’s say 8-10mg of LSD… Doing enough ibogaine to even begin
touching that, and you’d be dead, a few hundred times over… And even
that in itself is another mind-trip, because amplification and intensity
don’t necessarily have much of anything to do with anything, but it’s
taking me years of real-time to re-arrive at that realization… numbness
and absolute amplification, both lead to eventual self-annihilation using
different routes to get there…  One extreme would be simply OD’ing, and slowly unravelling into warm dark
waves of oblivion… Which has always seemed like a great way to die…
The other being dosing yourself with let’s say 100mg (not mcg) of LSD, and
being at ground zero when an atomic bomb hits… “Just go into the
light!” Uhm, is there anything else? Anywhere short of those two extreme polar opposites, which paradoxically,
of course, and like everything else, wind up in the same place; and you’re
eventually going to fall from that state, back into consensual reality… And therein is one helluva difference… Falling out of Godhead, what I
can be, what I really am, into what I am on a day to day basis, hurts…
A lot… Because reaching that level, maintaining it, living within it,
is not some insurmountable goal… It’s just like being awake to the fact
that you’re half-asleep — at best — most of the time… It sorta sucks
to fall from that back into consensual reality… But usually all that
happens is I have a lot of new toys to play with inside my mind, and
cross-connect in different ways, and have a beautiful afterglow which
lasts for days, or sometimes weeks… Whereas coming back to consensual reality from heroin, is a lot more like
crawling out of a sewer that’s filled with shit and blood and razor
blades, and just trying to make it to daylight one more time… To summarize it in as simple and un-existential manner as I can right at
this moment anyway… Entheogens strip away the magical curtain and
eventually land you in that place called truth… Giving you very
different insights into who and WHAT you are, and what “reality” is… Heroin serves as an extremely strong reminder, that there simply is
nothing in consensual reality, that gets as good as heroin. I don’t think either is right nor wrong, only right or wrong for a given
person, at a given moment in time. It’s just a question of which game you
want to play. Would you like the Red Pill or the Blue Pill…? Patrick ———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 12, 2002 at 10:59:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dog that was amazing. Talk about painting pictures with words. You, Preston, Howard, Gamma, all you guys make for intense reading. Patrick that dude who dissed you was in some places half right. You wrote something like 3 or 4 thousand words to this list in the last hour or two. They were excellent. Get a editor, you should be able to finish a book in about a day and a half. No joke. Rock on! .:vector:. Can I have the red and blue pills? On Sun, 12 May 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote > > On [Sun, May 12, 2002 at 01:35:40PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote: > > | Hey all, one more thing- > | I forgot to include marijuana and shroom-type stuff in my list of preferred > | substances over alcohol and pharmaceuticals. > | Pot particularly helped me mightily to realign my thinking on drug use > | and abuse, and stabilize. The others, well, they help me occasionally > | realign in general. > > Yeah, this is why I go to church every 4-6 weeks max… I need to realign > and re-tune myself. No matter where I think I am, if it’s been more than > a couple of weeks between doses of sacrament from Saint Hofmann, then I > find that I’ve drifted out a lot further and need to have the cosmic > sledgehammer shatter all the armor and ego and other crap which has built > up; and left to my own devices I would apparently keep building, each > layer taking me further and further away from what I really am, and what I > want to flow through me. > > There are much more gentle and consistent ways to accomplish this I would > suspect; rather than holding a chemical howitzer to your head — to a cop > a line from that Popular Science guy, which I found amusing, though he was > talking ’bout ibogaine, not LSD — 5-10mg, complete and utter annihilation > here we go! z000m… > > | I also suspect I wouldn’t do heroin, but rather might occasionally like > | a bowl of opium. Even on that I’m not entirely sure. I don’t have a lot of > | time to get wiped out, and I would get wiped out trying to get to a point > | where I could do heroin and be sociable and functional due to lack of > | tolerance now. Difficult question to answer firmly in the current > | environment of prohibition. Hard to imagine a different way occurring at > | this time of treating people and drugs than how we do now. > > Yeah I think that too… I’ve only done opium a few times, and haven’t > really felt it in probably over a decade, ‘cuz when some well-intentioned > hash dealing kinda guy would come up with, “do0d! I’ve got Opium! It’s > so great!” I would try it and never feel anything, because duh, I’m > strung-out; but that didn’t stop me from TRYING — after all everybody > likes to hold up charts and graphs and things, and EXPLAIN why you can’t > get high if you’re on enough methadone: booshit… > > I think what it all comes down to is… If I am — at that particular > moment — trapped within that consensual reality hallucination we’re > sharing, and sunk into darwinism; then if it comes down to a choice > between all kinds of Pretty ShinY th!ngs, money, props, status, cars, all > that hit and miss shit which barely tweaks the right receptors before > doing a fade: i’ll just as soon hit the fast-forward button to the part > where I INJECT. Thank you, I’ll pass on all that and go directly to > heroin please. > > Now if I was stuck in that headspace all, or even most of the time, I > wouldn’t be clean right now… It just wouldn’t work; because in that > scenario heroin pretty much beats everything, what are we even talking > about? I mean many things release tension… But even on that score, the > greatest release of tension I have ever felt in my life on a purely > physical basis, is bangin’ up when you’re dopesick… Whoah… Talk > about a religious experience; hell to heaven in ’bout 7 seconds. Sex has > got nothin’ on that. Nothing in reality has anything on that… > > The thing is… entheogens, whatever you wanna call ’em, from the most > gentle and mild ones like marijuana, to what I’d call the middleground: > that being ibogaine, to LSD, which for me is IT… There is no other > substance that exists, where you can dose yourself to such intense levels > of amplification, without killing yourself out on a physical basis. It is > simply completely impossible to attain anything approaching what you hit > on let’s say 8-10mg of LSD… Doing enough ibogaine to even begin > touching that, and you’d be dead, a few hundred times over… And even > that in itself is another mind-trip, because amplification and intensity > don’t necessarily have much of anything to do with anything, but it’s > taking me years of real-time to re-arrive at that realization… numbness > and absolute amplification, both lead to eventual self-annihilation using > different routes to get there… > > One extreme would be simply OD’ing, and slowly unravelling into warm dark > waves of oblivion… Which has always seemed like a great way to die… > The other being dosing yourself with let’s say 100mg (not mcg) of LSD, and > being at ground zero when an atomic bomb hits… “Just go into the > light!” Uhm, is there anything else? > > Anywhere short of those two extreme polar opposites, which paradoxically, > of course, and like everything else, wind up in the same place; and you’re > eventually going to fall from that state, back into consensual reality… > > And therein is one helluva difference… Falling out of Godhead, what I > can be, what I really am, into what I am on a day to day basis, hurts… > A lot… Because reaching that level, maintaining it, living within it, > is not some insurmountable goal… It’s just like being awake to the fact > that you’re half-asleep — at best — most of the time… It sorta sucks > to fall from that back into consensual reality… But usually all that > happens is I have a lot of new toys to play with inside my mind, and > cross-connect in different ways, and have a beautiful afterglow which > lasts for days, or sometimes weeks… > > Whereas coming back to consensual reality from heroin, is a lot more like > crawling out of a sewer that’s filled with shit and blood and razor > blades, and just trying to make it to daylight one more time… > > To summarize it in as simple and un-existential manner as I can right at > this moment anyway… Entheogens strip away the magical curtain and > eventually land you in that place called truth… Giving you very > different insights into who and WHAT you are, and what “reality” is… > > Heroin serves as an extremely strong reminder, that there simply is > nothing in consensual reality, that gets as good as heroin. > > I don’t think either is right nor wrong, only right or wrong for a given > person, at a given moment in time. It’s just a question of which game you > want to play. > > Would you like the Red Pill or the Blue Pill…? > > Patrick
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 12, 2002 at 10:17:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:18:27PM -0400], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| That was a great story Patrick, but let me just respond to this snippet
| above.  In my case there was no “food tastes great, the sky is blue, the
| clouds are fluffy, I’m so happy.”  What I didn’t feel is frightened.  And,
| that was the first time in my life that I recalled not feeling frightened.  I
| didn’t even realize I was frightened all my life till I was no longer
| frightened.  I mean, if you don’t know another place you can never look back.

Very valid point, and yes…  On this I would agree 100%  And it’s very
likely this was probably something else, random, or not so random, which
greatly contributed to my ability to hold things together afterwards.

|  As to heroin, the switch just got turned off.  Of course, my decision to

This part, was not the case for me…  That happened over in Thailand.

| perform a complete dose escalation study of ibogaine most likely helped and
| as with you, the right woman, the right place and the right time.

Yup…  All these combinations…  Which, oddly enough, appear to be
relative constants in the cases of MANY people who have held it
together…  Not that exact combination necessarily, perhaps a slightly
different blend of love, acceptance, compassion…  But yeah…  Without
all that, it’s unlikely it would have happened.

Patrick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 12, 2002 at 10:18:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 5/12/02 9:33:25 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:

<< I had no, “food tastes great, the sky is blue, the clouds are fluffy, I’m
so happy!” stage.  And i’ve seen my bloodwork, I had a whole lotta nor
onboard, I tripped my ass off, I got hit with the highest levels of
ibogaine HCl within reasonable bounds for my size… >>

That was a great story Patrick, but let me just respond to this snippet
above.  In my case there was no “food tastes great, the sky is blue, the
clouds are fluffy, I’m so happy.”  What I didn’t feel is frightened.  And,
that was the first time in my life that I recalled not feeling frightened.  I
didn’t even realize I was frightened all my life till I was no longer
frightened.  I mean, if you don’t know another place you can never look back.
As to heroin, the switch just got turned off.  Of course, my decision to
perform a complete dose escalation study of ibogaine most likely helped and
as with you, the right woman, the right place and the right time.

Howard

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: (again) who wants to be a junkie?
Date: May 12, 2002 at 9:28:16 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sun, May 12, 2002 at 08:26:36PM -0400], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| << Heroin serves as an extremely strong reminder, that there simply is
| nothing in consensual reality, that gets as good as heroin. >>
|
| How about after ibogaine? Not ibogaine itself though that is sure as hell
| interesting but, some days later when there is no real action but, a general
| level of comfort.

Uhm, see here is where I personally totally diverge from the “and I just
didn’t feel like doing heroin anymore after ibogaine,” crowd…  The
answer would be a resounding: nope.

When I came back down, what utterly amazed me and just blew my mind, was
the fact that I wasn’t sick, my habit was gone, IT WORKED!  This gave me
enough willpower to continue with my original plans (i.e., NOT shooting up
afterwards).

But me, coming off heroin, with ibogaine, amounts to: okay, I’m clean, and
right now I have a VERY vivid recollection of just why I shoot dope in the
first place.  I can’t withstand all this shit that’s coming down inside my
head, I cannot sustain this, I need heroin, I hafta get numb or I will go
crazy.  To cop a line from Trent Reznor, “I’m broken, it wants me dead,
goddamn this noise inside my head.”

I had no, “food tastes great, the sky is blue, the clouds are fluffy, I’m
so happy!” stage.  And i’ve seen my bloodwork, I had a whole lotta nor
onboard, I tripped my ass off, I got hit with the highest levels of
ibogaine HCl within reasonable bounds for my size…

What helped me hold it together through a very hard time after my last
shot of dope, last dose of ibogaine; was a combination of things.  First
of all, I met this chick on the island while we were there.  And she hung
out with me, and we dosed together sorta by mutual choice…  And going in
she had a really shit time — which is pretty common for chicks — and was
literally yelling, screaming, crying, and I was just gliding in and
watching her and waiting for her head to start spinning around — which
didn’t happen, but mahn did she ever throw up a lot…  But anyway, so we
sorta touched base at the start, then went off, and coming down, it was
the exact reverse: I was getting killed, wandering through hell, and
dying, yet again…  And she was giggling and bouncing around, and, “look!
Little toy spaceships!  Wheeeeee, let’s go rush down the tubes again….
I love the tubes, aren’t they fun!”  And I just got pulled into her
headspace, and started laughing, and it was all-good.

After getting off the island, I was totally freaking out, asked for
naltrexone, because I knew myself, and was pretty sure exactly where I’d
end up given 24 hours at most.  And I ate the shit…  triple the 50mg a
day which was suggested, so I absolutely knew that if I shot enough dope
to overload the receptor blockade, I would also OD and simply die, since I
had just done ibogaine and was pretty much reset…

And…  So that’s what I did…  But in addition to that, as so often
seems to happen to me, I just fell into some parallel universe, wound up
bouncing out of some rehab within 6 hours — where Deborah wanted to park
me for 2 weeks before I went to Thailand, and into this chick’s house…
“Hi mommy! Look what I found in detox!  Isn’t it great?!?!?!?  He’s coming
to live in my room!”

And that was hysterical…  I was busy having a very good time, hanging
out with this girl, living in a really beautiful condo, getting driven
around wherever I wanted to go, and then her mom — who was a total
sweetheart and uhm, dealt with things I think better than most saints
would have — used to make us breakfast, bring it into her room while we
were in bed, and then hand us a bible attempting to save us both; pulling
me aside and asking me to be a positive influence on her daughter….

Uhm… otay.  Sure, why yes.  I’ll do my very best!

And uhm, so I was busy…  Then I went to Thailand — which is a whole
other story, but amounts to: nobody was left who knew what the hell to do
with me anymore, so it was like: bon voyage!  We give up, have a nice OD!
‘Cept for Deb, who was crazy enough to believe in me and used to run
around and protect me from myself even when I didn’t want that…

To fast-forward: I got to the ashram, which is just outside of Bangkok,
and it’s like, No Fucking Way…  There is HEROIN everywhere, I feel
heroin vibrating to me from all directions…  There are 25,000 fucking
hmoung breaking opium down into heroin, 50 yards down the road from this
place, this is like drug-distributor central, ya know…  God is funny, I
am NEVER leaving here…

And I was eating naltrexone like crazy, and started basically working out
8 hours a day, ‘cuz there isn’t much else to do there; and there were
these monks, some of whome were like hitting 70 — from the neck up —
from the neck down, it’s like whoah…  very healthy 20 sumthin’  ‘Cuz of
course, in Thai