Ibogaine List Archives - 2006-03

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Opiates
Date: March 31, 2006 at 11:09:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Nick,

I’ve been having some strangeness with my ibogaine posts, so just in case you didn’t get my letter–which I don’t have the patience to re-write in its entirety–but here’s the real reason opiates produce pleasure, which has nothing to do with ‘repressed emotions’–although opiates, by causing euphoria, can be said to be mood enhancers. The following is from a medical site, written by an actual Doctor who studies such things:

HOW DRUGS AFFECT NEUROTRANSMITTERS

Dopamine appeared very early in the course of evolution and is involved in many functions that are essential for survival of the organism, such as motricity, attentiveness, motivation, learning, and memorization. But most of all, dopamine is a key element in identifying natural rewards for the organism. These natural stimuli such as food and water cause individuals to engage in approach behaviours. Dopamine is also involved in unconscious memorization of signs associated with these rewards.   It has now been established that all substances that trigger dependencies in human beings increase the release of a neuromediator, dopamine, in a specific area of the brain: the nucleus accumbens.   But not all drugs increase dopamine levels in the brain in the same way.
• Some substances imitate natural neuromediators and take their place on their receptors. Morphine, for example, binds to the receptors for endorphin (a natural “morphine” produced by the brain), while nicotine binds to the receptors for acetylcholine.
• Other substances increase the secretion of natural neuromediators. Cocaine, for example, mainly increases the amount of dopamine in the synapses, while ecstasy mainly increases the amount of serotonin.
• Still other substances block a natural neuromediator. Alcohol, for example, blocks the NMDA receptors.
Click on the names of each of the following drugs to read about how they work and what effects they have.
Alcohol —– Opiates (heroin, morphine, etc.) —– Cocaןne —– Nicotine
Caffeine —– Amphetamines —– Cannabis —– Ecstasy —– Benzodiazepines

•
Opiates (heroin, morphine, etc.)
The human body naturally produces its own opiate-like substances and uses them as neurotransmitters. These substances include endorphins, enkephalins, and dynorphin, often collectively known as endogenous opioids. Endogenous opioids modulate our reactions to painful stimuli. They also regulate vital functions such as hunger and thirst and are involved in mood control, immune response, and other processes.   The reason that opiates such as heroin and morphine affect us so powerfully is that these exogenous substances bind to the same receptors as our endogenous opioids. There are three kinds of receptors widely distributed throughout the brain: mu, delta, and kappa receptors.   These receptors, through second messengers, influence the likelihood that ion channels will open, which in certain cases reduces the excitability of neurons. This reduced excitability is the likely source of the euphoric effect of opiates and appears to be mediated by the mu and delta receptors.   This euphoric effect also appears to involve another mechanism in which the GABA-inhibitory interneurons of the ventral tegmental area come into play. By attaching to their mu receptors, exogenous opioids reduce the amount of GABA released (see animation). Normally, GABA reduces the amount of dopamine released in the nucleus accumbens. By inhibiting this inhibitor, the opiates ultimately increase the amount of dopamine produced and the amount of pleasure felt.   Chronic consumption of opiates inhibits the production of cAMP, but this inhibition is offset in the long run by other cAMP production mechanisms. When no opiates are available, this increased cAMP production capacity comes to the fore and results in neural hyperactivity and the sensation of craving the drug.
General links about opiates:

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From: Run Drugs Out of Town Run <rundrugsoutoftownrun@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [DrugWar] US Embassy recommends coca tea…
Date: March 29, 2006 at 6:36:17 AM EST
To: drugwar@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Coca-cola is still the worlds largest consumer of coca leaves. Granted they use denatured leaves and sell the cocaine derived from them to pharmaceutical companies but they still use the leaves in their “soft drink”.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=51732
Published: Sunday, March 26, 2006
Bylined to: Niko Kyriakou
US embassy in Bolivia recommends coca tea to help alleviate altitude
sickness
The (Caracas) Daily Journal (Niko Kyriakou): The war against coca … the
plant used to make cocaine … has become a defining issue for U.S. policy
in South America, yet many people outside South America know little about
the plant the US. is fighting against.
In a meeting with newly elected Bolivian President Evo Morales earlier this
month, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice sought renewed cooperation
between the two countries to counter drug trafficking, but it was the coca
leaf that captured headlines.
Morales, a former coca farmer who calls himself pro-coca but anti-cocaine,
ended his half-hour meeting with Rice by giving her a guitar decorated with
real coca leaves sealed under lacquer.
While the gesture bears a mark of humor, in the context of Morales’ wider
stance on coca, the message seems designed to point out the importance of
the plant to South American culture, and not — as it is often perceived in
the United States — to illicit markets.
Morales still serves as head of the coca farmers’ union that lifted him to
power. He has increased the allowed level of coca cultivation to about 1,600
square meters per family since taking office last December. At his inaugural
dinner, Morales served coca wine, coca cake, and coca cookies.
In Bolivia’s Andean neighbor Peru, presidential candidate and retired Lt.
Col. Ollanta Humala announced in mid-March that if the left-wing Humala wins
Peru’s presidency in April, he plans to serve poor children bread made from
flour containing five percent coca.
While coca gains top-level approval in various parts of Latin America, in
the US coca remains taboo. If a US politician were to suggest giving
children coca it would be seen not just as political suicide, but as a
criminal act.
And that difference in perspective reflects a vast gap between US and South
American experience of a substance with a known history stretching back long
before Christopher Columbus’s landfall, times when the Incas controlled much
of the continent.
For thousands of years, coca has been a rich source of nutrients for poor
South Americans.
snip-

Read Complete Article at Above URL

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

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Dr. Bill Gallagher, DC
Executive Director
Run Drugs Out of Town Run, Inc.
PO Box 25152
Scottsdale, AZ 85255
480-513-3909
http://rundrugsoutoftownrun.org

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates.

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: WWF featuring Preston n Nick.
Date: March 31, 2006 at 5:59:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was right! You truly are funny! And oh how that is needed in this so serious business! Though I have to admit that I launched another attack myself…it just seems to be taking a long time to register. Nick will not be happy! rotf and lol!

From:  Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject:  [Ibogaine] Re: WWF featuring Preston n Nick.
Date:  Sat, 01 Apr 2006 09:54:03 +1200
>Um, what Round is this??? I’ve lost count………
>”round n round the therapy bush, the therapy bush….”
>(cant remember the words…..)
>Carry on, generalmen.
>
>
>
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: WWF featuring Preston n Nick.
Date: March 31, 2006 at 4:54:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Um, what Round is this??? I’ve lost count………
“round n round the therapy bush, the therapy bush….”
(cant remember the words…..)
Carry on, generalmen.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 3:27:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Addicts are no different from anybody else. But suddenly this is the moment for them to be “different”, when the pressure is on a little suddenly it’s “I don’t have to listen to you because you’re not ‘like me.'” I mean, shit, did you ever hear such a manipulative load of old bollocks in your life? I’d be embarrassed to come out with that crap.<

Why is it non-addicts seem to so often come out with this total canard “oh, that darned druggie/junkie is being manipulative”? Talk about complete and utter bullshit, particularly in this case.
Hasn’t a single thing to do with the question. It appears to me that you don’t know much about, much less about dealing with “the human condition” period, hence your willingly locking yourself into a tc; using “abusive” and “theraputic” in the same sentence as though they fit together; “yelling at others is healing for me” (what a selfish outlook on life it seems to me).
Sigh.

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

—–Original Message—–
From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68@hotmail.com]
Sent: 30 March 2006 23:56
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Hey everyone. Nick, what is your deal? I bet you subscribe to that whole “tough love” theory too, eh?
Hey Alan,
I believe that if you see someone you care about doing shit you don’t think is good for them then you should call them on it, yes. Is this what you mean?
And how, pray tell, is abusive language going to make a difference on the “supposed” reptilian brain, since that part of the brain –the reptilian part–is much older than the part that deals with language.
It attracts attention.
I wonder if you’re not just trying to stir up controversy. And why don’t you answer Preston’s question as to whether you’ve ever been an addict, or experienced withdrawal, or–especially–the stigma that comes with using or abusing any drugs–and in the minds of many, there is no difference.
I’m not a drug addict and I never have been. I work as a therapist assisting with Humaniversity therapy groups here at the Leela Centre where I live and in Holland at the Humaniversity. Leela is not a TC, does not primarily deal with addiction issues, Humaniversity is. This is my experiential background. However, if you care to actually read what I am saying, as opposed to simply reacting, you will see that this has little to do with anything of it.
If you do not like what I write, then why not simply say so? You want to engage in discussion, then you imply that somehow, because I’m not an addict, I don’t know anything about the human condition as it is for addicts. That’s just bollocks. Addicts are no different from anybody else. But suddenly this is the moment for them to be “different”, when the pressure is on a little suddenly it’s “I don’t have to listen to you because you’re not ‘like me.'” I mean, shit, did you ever hear such a manipulative load of old bollocks in your life? I’d be embarrassed to come out with that crap.
I do not see addicts as addicts first but as people first, with addiction issues.

LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and
“therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick.
You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a
“fucking junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas
about what serves “junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for
“junkies”?
Peace and love.
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
stigma and methadone

Hey Alberto,

It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP
is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the
latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you
feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying
to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m
saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor
baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in
the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the
place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever.
This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.

Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen
are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that
is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic
pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it
that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with
the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to
be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen
experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased
awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most
this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago@hotmail.com]
Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
stigma and methadone

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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT-quakes in Iran
Date: March 31, 2006 at 3:27:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Anyone heard from pascal? I am kind of worried about him and his family.
Callie

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Tired
Date: March 31, 2006 at 1:59:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Bill, Welcome to the list.
Can you please share more about yourself…how old you are, location, drugs of choice, previous attempts at a clean way of life,etc., etc……..
Hope to hear more about you! So far, it sounds like you have found something that might change your life!!
Callie

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] encounter
Date: March 31, 2006 at 3:38:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When I first did it, I was so scared, then afterwards so liberated I was an instant convert<

The word “cult” comes leaping to mind.

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] encounter

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 31 March 2006 17:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

In a message dated 3/31/06 9:12:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 30 March 2006 18:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Nick,

It is not a matter of resolving addiction. It is a matter of respect, Yes brain washing and torture work. There is also the adage, you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. I just think people should be treated decently and that is more important than whether they are using drugs or not. Just to be clear, though you did not say it, I don’t consider myself a mindy academic. I’ve been in the trenches.

Howard

Howard,

I do not regard you as a mindy academic. I also don’t regard you as above misunderstanding, or getting caught in reaction. I would appreciate it if you could explain to me just how brain-washing and torture relate to encounter therapy? I have not stated or inferred that I don’t think people should be treated without respect, simply that there are two sides to the coin, with the positive there also comes the negative – What I like about you is…..; What I don’t like about you is… This is how it goes, share both sides. That is what I’m saying. With the whole pc trip, there’s a danger you start to use only one side. And this doesn’t usually work.

I have to say that it seems to me that even discussing encounter therapy trips so many people out they are just reacting all over the place. Perhaps there is another explanation or I am wrong.

Hi Nick,

In my opinion encounter therapy is brain washing and torture in that it uses actions that will cause discomfort and pain in an attempt to change behavior. While verbal abuse is not the cutting off of a finger it is painful. I will acknowledge that there are matters of degree but that encounter therapy and torture are similar in concept.

Howard

Hi Howard,

The intention of encounter is not to change behaviour but to release judgments and come closer to people. There maybe behavioural changes as a result but this is not the focus of the intention. Thus I couldn’t see it as brainwashing. Using affirmations or NLP, perhaps, both great therapeutic techniques, I would agree could be termed “brainwashing” as both are direct attempts to change thinking and behaviour.

With encounter you simply sit down and make public, face-to-face, judgments you have about people, positive and negative. Usually negative first, then emotional release, then positive. When I first did it, I was so scared, then afterwards so liberated I was an instant convert. I mean, to no longer have to live with a load of mindfucks about what other people might think about you, I find it such a freedom. I spent a long time being busy with “what if…..this” or “what if….that.” Then my mind no longer needed to bother with that stuff. I’m not an expert but I couldn’t really see much residential rehab or TC working without a decent sized element of encounter. And for anyone with fears around judging or being judged then encounter is really an absolute must.

Nick

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hello list…
Date: March 31, 2006 at 1:56:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

good vibes coming your way right NOW!! also said a little prayer! that never hurts, huh?
asking for blessings on you too Mark, bless all who help us addicts try to better ourselves!
good vibes to all!
callie

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] encounter
Date: March 31, 2006 at 12:18:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/31/06 9:12:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Nick,

Howard

Howard,

I have to say that it seems to me that even discussing encounter therapy trips so many people out they are just reacting all over the place. Perhaps there is another explanation or I am wrong.

Hi Nick,

Howard

Hi Howard,

Nick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 11:35:14 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/31/06 9:12:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Nick,

Howard

Howard,

I have to say that it seems to me that even discussing encounter therapy trips so many people out they are just reacting all over the place. Perhaps there is another explanation or I am wrong.

Hi Nick,

Howard

From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 10:22:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How’s this for abusive, you bunch of bickering ninnies?!?!?!

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

Well, there certainly is, I can tell you that. Through-out my life I’ve experimented with many drugs, for varying lengths of time…and always, I would eventually tire of whatever chemical I was using (with the exception of marijuana, which I view as a medicine and sacrament..although even my use of this has been prevented by the worms who have nothing better to do than tell others what THEY can and cannot do) and leave it behind. The same would be true of my use of opiates, were it not for my inability to withstand the withdrawal…and let me tell you, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND EITHER THE BLISS OF POWERFUL OPIATES, OR THE HELL WITHDRAWALING FROM THEM!. Personally, I’m tired of this whole subject; if you truly are an addict, I’m sure you can find someone to abuse you night and day with offensive language. Let me know when it starts to work. I don’t mean to be rude, but addicts–a term that I hate–go thru enough abuse without any extra. Peace!
Opiates I don’t take and have only taken a little in my life. Opiate is an analgesic, it stops you feeling. If you experience bliss from an analgesic it is because your body is struggling to hold down a lot of feelings your ego has decided it doesn’t want to have. I don’t see another reason for it, happy to hear one if you have it. And I’m not just being a judgmental mf. It can happen to anyone. If your ego orientation is strongly away from feeling, you want to look cool, but you actually have a lot of feelings then opiates will give bliss for sure. Some people need opiates just to keep feelings down enough to function. It’s common.
Nick
From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:36:13 -0500
>>I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>>process.<
>
>LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and
>”therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick.
>You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a
>”fucking junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas
>about what serves “junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for
>”junkies”?
>Peace and love.
>—–
>”If God dropped acid, would he see people?”  ~Steven Wright
>
>Peace and love.
>Preston
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor Underground
>Editor Under the Influence
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hey Alberto,
>
>It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP
>is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the
>latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you
>feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying
>to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m
>saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor
>baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in
>the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the
>place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever.
>This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.
>
>Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen
>are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that
>is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic
>pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it
>that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with
>the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to
>be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen
>experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased
>awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most
>this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.
>
>Nick
>
>
>—–Original Message—–
>From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago@hotmail.com]
>Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hola:
>Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang
>terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those
>terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more
>difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not
>scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical
>journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language.
>Slowly will change the attitudes, it’s called neurolinguistic
>programing.
>Saludos
>Alberto
>
>
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Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] hello list…
Date: March 31, 2006 at 10:17:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello List. – Please send good vibes for a very good freind of ours whose going to be on his way in an hour or so. Thanks. -Mark

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 9:17:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston,

Sure we’ve been through this before, on at least several occasions, but I’m
happy to do it again. Here we go, once and for all, I HAVE NEVER BEEN A DRUG
ADDICT. Never ever ever ever. Ok, that’s it. This now means that if ever I
should say or write something that you don’t like, you don’t have to listen
to it. Ever! Is this good for you?

Addiction to an analgesic means you don’t like to feel, or you’re just so
overloaded with feelings you can’t function. It does not, imo, opinion
separate you from the rest of the human race, most of whom suffer from a
similar problem but have just learned different (not better) ways of dealing
with it. Though there’s more social stigma with addiction, that’s for sure.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 30 March 2006 19:36
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
and methadone

I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
process.<

LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and
“therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick.
You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a “fucking
junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas about
what serves
“junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for “junkies”?
Peace and love.
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and
methadone

Hey Alberto,

It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real.
NLP is fine
and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the latter
you can use
more abusive language if it expresses what you feel. I am not suggesting
that you should start a session by saying to the client, “Yo
fuckwit you’re
in a right fucking state!” I’m saying there is a place for
abusive language
in the therapeutic process. I’m also saying that you have to
watch a little
the “poor baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the
easiest thing
in the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them
the place
where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever. This
is what I
see Peter Cohen doing.

Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen are
trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that
is, to me, a
few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic pronouncements without
awareness or experience. It’s this side of it that I also bring up. You
cannot so easily resolve addiction with the higher mind, imo. It’s more
reptilian brain stuff. There need to be deep rooted changes at
this level.
Stuff needs to happen experientially – maturation, resolution of
conflict,
increased awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy –
for most
this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.

Nick

/]=—————————————————————
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[%]
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 9:04:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick,

Howard

Howard,

I have to say that it seems to me that even discussing encounter therapy trips so many people out they are just reacting all over the place. Perhaps there is another explanation or I am wrong.

Nick
In a message dated 3/30/06 8:21:08 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Hey Alberto,

It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever. This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.

Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.

Nick

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] the term junky
Date: March 31, 2006 at 9:06:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bookaye

I dont see a reason for this hubub. To me the term junky adequetly describes people who dont care about anything but their next fix. These are people who will shake your hand with their right hand and stab you with their left. This doesnt have anything to do with prohabition or the war on drugs. I belive that if opiates were regulated and legal we would still have a high number of people living on skid row, existing just to get high. Naturaly you can not label every heroin addict a junky since some managed to retain their human traits.

Don’t just Search. Find! Try MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 8:24:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Callie,

Yes, the strongest thing is when the peers get involved. This is the most confrontational, whether you’ve been into drugs or not, when you experience the people you identify with pulling you up on your behaviour. That is why it is so good when former addicts become drug rehab therapists. They are the best.

Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: 31 March 2006 06:22
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

This entire discussion is/has been very interesting and thought provoking.
Don’t know if I have ever mentioned this but I worked in the addiction field about 10 years before I ever admitted I was an addict/junkie, whatever you want to label me.
The first treatment setting was the ‘Care Unit’ back in the 80’s. It was hospital based and patients were treated respectfully and labeled and called addicts, alcoholics. It was 12 step based and ‘group therapy’ with addiction psychologist was confrontational using each persons prior actions (fuck ups) as the basis for the confrontation.
The success rate of patients followed up in one year were that about 15 % remained clean and sober for the first year.
I then worked for a treatment center Buffalo Valley. It was state funded. Patients were alcoholic and addicts. It was non medical. Patients were required to be drug and alcohol free for 72 hours prior to admission. Therapy was 12 step based. Group therapy was very confrontational and was lead by recovering staff members and patients instead of an addiction psychologist. Patients prior actions (fuck ups) were used as basis of confrontation just as before at Care Unit.
The big difference here is that peers and recovering staff did the confronting and was accepted more than it was by the psychologist, non recovering psychologist.
The success rate of this treatment center after a year was double the Care Unit….33%.
I think the reason for this is that peers did the confronting and labeling. The term junky was used freely but only by those who also considered themselves junkies.
Does this make sense to y’all?
Of course the patients at the hospital based Care Unit were ‘high bottom’ drunks and addicts. They had insurance to cover their treatment, meaning most still had employment. The patients at state facility were on their own…..’low bottom’ addicts and alcoholics, well seasoned to the consequences of their behaviors.
I really hope you all can get what I am saying. I used to be a lot more eloquent in my descriptions. A result of many years using and abusing!
Callie

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 8:42:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “BILL JOHNSON” <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Tired
Date: March 31, 2006 at 1:38:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello guess what. I have just discovered that if you just drill a small hole in the back left side of your head and let some of the pressure of this world run out , then everything is O.K.
Well aside from the ride to the Emergency, everything is going to be Alright. Well in my opinion anyways, the Doctors say that I can’t have my carries anymore but, Maybe I don;t need them now.
Only time will tell I guess.

Oh no I have just noticed it is only March 31st. April fools day is tomorrow.

Have a good day Peoples of Understanding.

I have just been reading for a couple of days seeing as how I really was not up to much Because , Well I didn’t(nor would I) drill a whole in my head, but When you (I) overdrink and then go without and then do it all over again and keep somehow doing the same thing over aand over and — .
It will be different next week, 2 witness prior to my carries.
Hey wheres that magic wand,?

Ibogaine, Can somebody talk more on the program – I know the first thing is to be serious, well I am more than serious, if you knew who sleeps in my home you could see how serious I really am, I just cannot seem to be trusted with myself medicating.(to proud to tell the doc and then there is who else? Your It.

God Bless this place and you
Bill

P.S.Please Keep an open mind, be kind, Its Free and remember that if I do not write so good or ?? that is cause this be my 1st experiance talking, and even this is scary.

Hey again Kirsty—

You’re funny. I think you’re one of the ones I’m going to like on this list.

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:43:34 +1200

Alan, Meet Nick.

From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 10:56 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Hey everyone. Nick, what is your deal? I bet you subscribe to that whole “tough love” theory too, eh? And how, pray tell, is abusive language going to make a difference on the “supposed” reptilian brain, since that part of the brain –the reptilian part–is much older than the part that deals with language. I wonder if you’re not just trying to stir up controversy. And why don’t you answer Preston’s question as to whether you’ve ever been an addict, or experienced withdrawal, or–especially–the stigma that comes with using or abusing any drugs–and in the minds of many, there is no difference. Well, there certainly is, I can tell you that. Through-out my life I’ve experimented with many drugs, for varying lengths of time…and always, I would
eventually tire of whatever chemical I was using (with the exception of marijuana, which I view as a medicine and sacrament..although even my use of this has been prevented by the worms who have nothing better to do than tell others what THEY can and cannot do) and leave it behind. The same would be true of my use of opiates, were it not for my inability to withstand the withdrawal…and let me tell you, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND EITHER THE BLISS OF POWERFUL OPIATES, OR THE HELL WITHDRAWALING FROM THEM!. Personally, I’m tired of this whole subject; if you truly are an addict, I’m sure you can find someone to abuse you night and day with offensive language. Let me know when it starts to work. I don’t mean to be rude, but addicts–a term that I hate–go thru enough abuse without any extra. Peace!

From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:36:13 -0500
>>I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>>process.<
>
>LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and
>”therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick.
>You never actually
answered my question- have you ever been a
>”fucking junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas
>about what serves “junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for
>”junkies”?
>Peace and love.
>—–
>”If God dropped acid, would he see people?”  ~Steven Wright
>
>Peace and love.
>Preston
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor Underground
>Editor Under the Influence
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hey
Alberto,
>
>It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP
>is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the
>latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you
>feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying
>to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m
>saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor
>baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in
>the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the
>place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever.
>This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.
>
>Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen
>are
trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that
>is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic
>pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it
>that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with
>the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to
>be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen
>experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased
>awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most
>this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.
>
>Nick
>
>
>—–Original Message—–
>From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago@hotmail.com]
>Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on

>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hola:
>Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang
>terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those
>terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more
>difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not
>scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical
>journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language.
>Slowly will change the attitudes, it’s called neurolinguistic
>programing.
>Saludos
>Alberto
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
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>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

Find just what you’re after with the new, more precise MSN Search – try it now!

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 12:22:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 31, 2006 at 12:25:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey again Kirsty—
You’re funny. I think you’re one of the ones I’m going to like on this list.

Alan, Meet Nick.
From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68@hotmail.com]  Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 10:56 a.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Hey everyone. Nick, what is your deal? I bet you subscribe to that whole “tough love” theory too, eh? And how, pray tell, is abusive language going to make a difference on the “supposed” reptilian brain, since that part of the brain –the reptilian part–is much older than the part that deals with language. I wonder if you’re not just trying to stir up controversy. And why don’t you answer Preston’s question as to whether you’ve ever been an addict, or experienced withdrawal, or–especially–the stigma that comes with using or abusing any drugs–and in the minds of many, there is no difference. Well, there certainly is, I can tell you that. Through-out my life I’ve experimented with many drugs, for varying lengths of time…and always, I would eventually tire of whatever chemical I was using (with the exception of marijuana, which I view as a medicine and sacrament..although even my use of this has been prevented by the worms who have nothing better to do than tell others what THEY can and cannot do) and leave it behind. The same would be true of my use of opiates, were it not for my inability to withstand the withdrawal…and let me tell you, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND EITHER THE BLISS OF POWERFUL OPIATES, OR THE HELL WITHDRAWALING FROM THEM!. Personally, I’m tired of this whole subject; if you truly are an addict, I’m sure you can find someone to abuse you night and day with offensive language. Let me know when it starts to work. I don’t mean to be rude, but addicts–a term that I hate–go thru enough abuse without any extra. Peace!

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:36:13 -0500 >>I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic  >>process.< > >LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and  >”therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick. >You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a  >”fucking junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas  >about what serves “junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for  >”junkies”? >Peace and love. >—– >”If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright > >Peace and love. >Preston >ptpeet@nyc.rr.com >Editor Underground >Editor Under the Influence >Editor http://www.drugwar.com >Cont. HighTimes mag/.com >Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com >Columnist New York Waste >Etc. > >—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on  >stigma and methadone > > >Hey Alberto, > >It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP  >is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the  >latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you  >feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying  >to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m  >saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic  >process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor  >baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in  >the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the  >place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever.  >This is what I see Peter Cohen doing. > >Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen  >are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that  >is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic  >pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it  >that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with  >the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to  >be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen  >experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased  >awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most  >this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody. > >Nick > > >—–Original Message—– >From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago@hotmail.com] >Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50 >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on  >stigma and methadone > > >Hola: >Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang  >terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those  >terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more  >difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not  >scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical  >journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language.  >Slowly will change the attitudes, it’s called neurolinguistic  >programing. >Saludos >Alberto > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\  >[%] Ibogaine List Commands:  >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > > > >  >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands:  >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] >  >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > >
Find just what you’re after with the new, more precise MSN Search – try it now!
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 30, 2006 at 10:43:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey everyone. Nick, what is your deal? I bet you subscribe to that whole “tough love” theory too, eh? And how, pray tell, is abusive language going to make a difference on the “supposed” reptilian brain, since that part of the brain –the reptilian part–is much older than the part that deals with language. I wonder if you’re not just trying to stir up controversy. And why don’t you answer Preston’s question as to whether you’ve ever been an addict, or experienced withdrawal, or–especially–the stigma that comes with using or abusing any drugs–and in the minds of many, there is no difference. Well, there certainly is, I can tell you that. Through-out my life I’ve experimented with many drugs, for varying lengths of time…and always, I would eventually tire of whatever chemical I was using (with the exception of marijuana, which I view as a medicine and sacrament..although even my use of this has been prevented by the worms who have nothing better to do than tell others what THEY can and cannot do) and leave it behind. The same would be true of my use of opiates, were it not for my inability to withstand the withdrawal…and let me tell you, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND EITHER THE BLISS OF POWERFUL OPIATES, OR THE HELL WITHDRAWALING FROM THEM!. Personally, I’m tired of this whole subject; if you truly are an addict, I’m sure you can find someone to abuse you night and day with offensive language. Let me know when it starts to work. I don’t mean to be rude, but addicts–a term that I hate–go thru enough abuse without any extra. Peace!

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:36:13 -0500 >>I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic  >>process.< > >LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and  >”therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick. >You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a  >”fucking junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas  >about what serves “junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for  >”junkies”? >Peace and love. >—– >”If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright > >Peace and love. >Preston >ptpeet@nyc.rr.com >Editor Underground >Editor Under the Influence >Editor http://www.drugwar.com >Cont. HighTimes mag/.com >Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com >Columnist New York Waste >Etc. > >—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on  >stigma and methadone > > >Hey Alberto, > >It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP  >is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the  >latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you  >feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying  >to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m  >saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic  >process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor  >baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in  >the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the  >place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever.  >This is what I see Peter Cohen doing. > >Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen  >are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that  >is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic  >pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it  >that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with  >the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to  >be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen  >experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased  >awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most  >this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody. > >Nick > > >—–Original Message—– >From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago@hotmail.com] >Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50 >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on  >stigma and methadone > > >Hola: >Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang  >terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those  >terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more  >difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not  >scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical  >journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language.  >Slowly will change the attitudes, it’s called neurolinguistic  >programing. >Saludos >Alberto > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\  >[%] Ibogaine List Commands:  >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > > > >  >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands:  >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] >  >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > >
Find just what you’re after with the new, more precise MSN Search – try it now!
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 30, 2006 at 5:55:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey everyone. Nick, what is your deal? I bet you subscribe to that whole “tough love” theory too, eh? And how, pray tell, is abusive language going to make a difference on the “supposed” reptilian brain, since that part of the brain –the reptilian part–is much older than the part that deals with language. I wonder if you’re not just trying to stir up controversy. And why don’t you answer Preston’s question as to whether you’ve ever been an addict, or experienced withdrawal, or–especially–the stigma that comes with using or abusing any drugs–and in the minds of many, there is no difference. Well, there certainly is, I can tell you that. Through-out my life I’ve experimented with many drugs, for varying lengths of time…and always, I would eventually tire of whatever chemical I was using (with the exception of marijuana, which I view as a medicine and sacrament..although even my use of this has been prevented by the worms who have nothing better to do than tell others what THEY can and cannot do) and leave it behind. The same would be true of my use of opiates, were it not for my inability to withstand the withdrawal…and let me tell you, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND EITHER THE BLISS OF POWERFUL OPIATES, OR THE HELL WITHDRAWALING FROM THEM!. Personally, I’m tired of this whole subject; if you truly are an addict, I’m sure you can find someone to abuse you night and day with offensive language. Let me know when it starts to work. I don’t mean to be rude, but addicts–a term that I hate–go thru enough abuse without any extra. Peace!

From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:36:13 -0500
>>I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>>process.<
>
>LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and
>”therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick.
>You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a
>”fucking junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas
>about what serves “junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for
>”junkies”?
>Peace and love.
>—–
>”If God dropped acid, would he see people?”  ~Steven Wright
>
>Peace and love.
>Preston
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor Underground
>Editor Under the Influence
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hey Alberto,
>
>It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP
>is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the
>latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you
>feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying
>to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m
>saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor
>baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in
>the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the
>place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever.
>This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.
>
>Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen
>are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that
>is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic
>pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it
>that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with
>the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to
>be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen
>experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased
>awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most
>this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.
>
>Nick
>
>
>—–Original Message—–
>From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago@hotmail.com]
>Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hola:
>Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang
>terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those
>terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more
>difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not
>scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical
>journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language.
>Slowly will change the attitudes, it’s called neurolinguistic
>programing.
>Saludos
>Alberto
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 30, 2006 at 1:36:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic process.<

LOL, somehow I’m having a LOT of trouble equating “abusive” and “therapeutic” in any process whatsoever Nick.
You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a “fucking junkie” Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas about what serves “junkies” best and what is most “therapeutic” for “junkies”?
Peace and love.
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

Hey Alberto,

It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever. This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.

Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 30, 2006 at 2:20:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t think treating anybody with a “poor you” attitude is helpful, addict or no addict it just keeps people in a victim state. Abuse is just that, abuse lol.
Aint that right you fucking winjing fucking pom???? (;o))))))))))))))
Hugs n kisses n touchy feely crap
Oi fucking oi, Liverpool Kisses ALL ROUND

It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever. This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: amazingly gorgeous, out of this world….
Date: March 30, 2006 at 2:07:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Cheers Lisa, I love fractals really awesome these ones though I must say!!!!!
Hope all is good wit cha!!!
Kirk J
From: Tiger Lisa [mailto:tigerlisa@gmail.com]  Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 12:13 a.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: amazingly gorgeous, out of this world….

Three-D fractals–WOW! I’ve never seen anything like this!  http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?Form.SortOrder=UserName&Start=1&Artist=josleys&ByArtist=Yes   (This person’s actual website, www.josleys.com, is impossible to reach–apparently it is overcome with visitors right now–but this page has some AMAZINGLY gorgeous images!)  Love, Lisa The time has come… My mind has been….psychedelicized! 😉

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 30, 2006 at 12:18:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick,

Howard

In a message dated 3/30/06 8:21:08 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Hey Alberto,

It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever. This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.

Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.

Nick

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: Alan/meth…
Date: March 29, 2006 at 6:02:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Jane Kirk,
I do apologize for the gender mixup! Don’t feel bad; as a rather long-haired blue-eyed blond (though strictly hetero..not that it matters) I have often be accidentaly called ma’am many, many times! Also, thanks for all the encouragement. I used to love hallucinogens, and did more than my share, and never once had a bad trip until I turned 25..after that, my body chemistry seemed to change and I started to have bad trips, which was a real ‘bummer’ (haha) for me…I also even started having panick attacks from as little as smoking alot of good weed. Eventually, I read a good book on anxiety, and my panick attacks went away, at least as far as smoking went. I still have very bad nerves, inherited from my mother, who is the biggest pessimist/worry-ridden person you would ever care not to meet….But I’m still a little hesitant about taking the big dose of ibogaine, though it sounds exciting as well…I started taking hallucinogens for the very purpose of trying to plumb the depths of my psyche, and this sounds like the ideal drug to do it…Also, since it slows the heartbeat, I think any panick attacks would be less likely, as rapid heartbeat from the speed element of street acid is usually what set me off (I have high cholesterol, plus heart disease runs in my family..). As for obtaining ibogaine in the US..well, I don’t think I could trust anyone that I didn’t know with that, and I absolutely cannot end up in prison doing a cold turkey after 7 years of meth! But I thought that, if it were available in Mexico, without the treatment plan (or one that would work with me) I could get a two-week supply of meth and give it a shot, if I could come up with the cash. My methadone program, after not doing it for years and years, has recently started testing and punishing for THC, also, which makes my clinic experience sheer hell. I already lost my takeouts due to a THC U.A….it’s so absurd, and obviously political, since canabis has zero reaction with opiates…and igf they’re going to start testing for hallucinogens, why the weakest one of all? Why not LSD or MDMA? I tell you, the US is becoming a truly fascist country under Bush and all the Republicans..not that the Democrats are much better (not to mention that they can’t debate worth shit). They are stripping our Civil Rights left and right!
Well..sorry. I do get carried away sometimes. You seem like a very intelligent and nice lady, and I appreciate your advice and support. Thanks again………..Sincerely…..A.

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: Alan/meth…
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:37:52 +1200

HI Alan,
That would be, thanks for the info, Maam lol (Captain Jane Kirk things got messed up in the transporter, stay tuned for episode of Star Trek, The Search for Jims Genitals).
There is information on Mindvox about what you wish to do, as well as far more qualified people than myself to give you what you need to know. I am in New Zealand and thank the Dogs that be its not illegal here..my advice to you is research research ask many questions, they will be answered.
As for myself, I did what is called Step Dosing of ibogaine in which I had my last drink of done (came off 30 mgs) then pretty much waited for the w/ds to set in, then started taking small amounts of Ibogaine HCL. I am most happy to inform you that the symptoms went away! On the third day, not due to any major discomfort, more a time frame had to be kept as my Ibo provider couldnt stay for long, so the Flood dose (large dose) was administered. Ive been, um, debating the importance of this flood dose with a friend (actually Ex of 8 years lol) who also wishes to just take small amounts to stop the w/ds. He feels he knows how and why hes addicted and doesnt like any form of tripping type substances. Anyway.if anyone has any suggestions or experience with low dosing (was interesting to read about long term pain patients using ibo to reduce tolerance on a regular basis..,) be interested to read.
All the best Alan, I hope the chance to take Ibogaine comes your way in some way or other.as far as detoxes go it was a picnic.
Kirk (aka kirsty)

From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68@hotmail.com]  Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 8:12 a.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses

Hey Kirk,
Thanks for the info, man. I totally believe you! Actually, I would like to use small amounts of ibogaine in combination with a relatively rapid taper-off…My problems are two, though:one, I can’t afford the 5 day program at any of the detox places, and second, I live in the U.S. (Orlando, Florida) and have no way to get ahold of ibogaine. I totally believe that if I had the ibogaine, and some basic idea of usage, I could use small amounts to taper-off rather quickly…I’m almost forty and not in the greatest shape, so I would rather do it this way, than the all-out, all at once method, anyway. My problem is getting ahold of the ibogaine, and someone to give me a basic idea of how to use small doses to stave off the withdrawal from dropping…actually, as far as the last, I would even take my chances with experimentation…but the other problem is more difficult. Do you know if you can obtain ibogaine from a doctor’s office in Mexico? I’ve heard many clinics there just ask you what’s wrong, and then give you a sheet listing drugs, and you just circle the ones you want…I’ve also heard that for white (and I could make myself look conservative) don’t get hassled too much coming back across. Any ideas? ………………………………..Sincerely, Alan.

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:28:23 +1200
Whats up with the internet??? Or are people just feeling repetitive??? Lol
Alan I have to say that coming off Methadone using Ibogaine was NOT hell in the least. Compared to regular detox. And with methadone, it doesnt seem to matter how small the dose when you come off, its still a bitch. Not with ibogaine. Hallelooooyah bless th Boga!!!!!!! (I have also thought that using Ibogaine to come off an IV habit would be easier than methadone, or other stuff that is absorbed thru the stomach lining instead of blood stream? )
Kirk J
From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500

I totally agree with Preston on this; I think being called a “fucking junkie” would have more to do with low self-esteem than anything…I don’t know if changing terminology will make a big difference as far as a person’s behavior goes, but we all certainly have the right to be addressed in a respectful manner. I think many “junkies” may have chemical imbalances in their brain, and opiates correct this. So, the determination to keep using may have more to do with the person finally feeling ‘complete’–and not the ever-pounded-in idea that ‘once a junkie always a junkie’. Also, most of the problems that arrise from heroin use have more to do with its prohibition, which causes it to be so expensive. I did heroin for years, but I never stole or anything–I continued to work my ass off at my job. But it did take all my money, and alot of my possessions ended up in the pawn shop. It did not change who I was basically as a person. Furthermore, if the doctors I went to see before I had ever started opiates, had given me the benzodiazepines that I requested (for I have very bad nerves and panic attacks) there’s a good chance that I never would have gotten hooked on heroin…although, I must admit, that opiates did what benzos did for me plus alot more. It’s very darkly funny and ironic that doctors have no problem with putting someone on prozac or some tricyclic anti-depressant for the rest of the patients lives, but act as though one is insane to request the same thing for other more controversial drugs.
Also, as far as methadone goes–and I do have experience with this drug, both through research and the fact that I’ve been a patient for 7 years–I think very, very few people truly need a dose over 50 milligrams…Now, if they’ve been really heavy users of heroin, yes, they might not be immediately comfortable at 50 milligrams..but if they gave it a little time, I believe it would soon ‘hold’ them just fine. Of course, there are exceptions. But let me say this: clinics are very frustrating; they are all different, some better than others…Profit making clinics will start someone on methadone before they even get back the results showing opiates..a person could take a couple Tylenol 3’s (with codeine) and then start on a very powerful painkiller. I was very skeptical myself when I first started on methadone–it hard to believe that what looks like a few drops of red liquid, or one small wafer, could possibly replace the half gram a day of mexican brown that I was shooting…But at 30 mgs, what they start one at, it held me most of the day; and by fifity, I was ready to stop…unfortunately, I still hadn’t gotten over the whole outlaw and needle fixation and continued to use, which gave them the excuse to keep raising my dose..I tried to explain to them that I wasn’t using because I was withdrawaling, but they wouldn’t listen. Profit making clinics–at least the one I went to–do everything in their power to get you totally addicted…And once they have you, forget about it! And if they don’t like ANYTHING that you’re doing, they hold the prospect of a rapid (10 day) detox over your head!
There will come a time, in most addicts lives, when they decide that they either want to be free of opiates–maybe, maybe not–but it won’t take long for the person to become totally fed up with jumping thru the hoops of a clinic–depending on how bad or good the clinic is. My opinion is this–if you want to get off heroin, methadone is a great way–but don’t stay on it longer than 6 months, and don’t go over, at the very highest, 100 milligrams. That way, getting off won’t be too hard…and if you re-lapse, you can always try again. But if you stay on methadone, at any dose really, but esp. a high one, for over two years, it will change your body chemistry and get into every part of your body–stored in your liver, bones, etc. And if you ever decide to get off..well, your chances are very slim, unless you are able to handle withdrawal very well, or can get to a treatment program, like one of the ibogaine ones–and even then, you are still going to have to go thru hell to be free. Methadone makes kicking Heroin seem easy…and it’s not the intensity…in fact, Heroin, for the worse period, is more intense–it’s the duration of the withdrawal that does one in…At the VERY least, you will withdrawal for a solid month. But most people experience pretty intense withdrawal for about two months, and lingering withdrawal for up to a year. And unlike Heroin withdrawal, where you occasionaly wear yourself out enough to sleep, YOU WILL NOT SLEEP A WINK during methadone withdrawal. I once missed just two days (and real withdrawal doesn’t even begin till the 3rd or 4th day). I took about 15 milligrams of Xanax, in desperation for sleep. And I did sleep–for about one hour. Then I was wide awake again! And the Xanax were good, because I had a helluva time walking..but no sleep. You get like a slingshot effect…from being sedated for so long, when it wears off, everything is painfully intense. This is party due to the fact that when you withdrawal, your body releases adrenaline. Methadone can be an angel of mercy–it can also be your worse nightmare. So, I would be very carefull in advocating to anyone larger doses…unless they don’t mind staying on it for the rest of their lives….and there’s also always the possibility that one of these many over-due catastrophes (earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, asteroids, birdflu, hurricanes, etc) may strike, destroying the infrastructure of your town or a larger area. Image, on top of all the other hell, the suffering that methadone patients went thru in New Orleans after Katrina?
Well, I tent to be long-winded, and I apologize if I’ve rambled on for too long. I just feel very strongly about these issues. I wish you all well! We need to get ibogaine approved for use in the U.S.! I’ve finally found something that could help, and once again it’s blocked by the crazy legislations of this country!

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST
In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix
That is quite a mix! Do you even feel the oxycontins? I would guess not since you report doing 15-25 a day.
I have found that Methadone blocks any euphoria or other desired actions from opiates. Honestly, if you double dose and are a dose short you would probably feel the same if you take the oxys or not.
I think that is your psychological obsession to ‘need’ those 15-25 oxys on a day without your Methadone. Physically you should not feel withdrawals if you go a day without dosing. I say that because Methadone is such a long acting substance.
I always think I feel like shit if I miss a day and don’t have my 115 mg of Methadone but it is psychological and not physical.
Peace out, Callie

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] anti-snitching campaign riles police
Date: March 30, 2006 at 4:24:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-28-stop-snitching_x.htm

Anti-snitch campaign riles police, prosecutors
By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY
PITTSBURGH – It was not the first time prosecutor Lisa Pellegrini had been enraged by the sight of the T-shirt with the traffic-sign message: STOP SNITCHING. But this guy was about to wear one into court, with matching baseball cap.
snip-

Interesting article folks.
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 30, 2006 at 4:31:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In such a demanding area that evokes such intense feeling it is highly
unlikely that everyone will ever agree on one sole solution or approach. Nor
will there ever be an approach that will fit all. At least i hope not!<

Hear hear!!! Words of wisdom, thanks Edward.

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —– From: “edward conn” <wardconn@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

I’d like to comment on this,

I feel that the desire to change language and the language of description appropriated to others is namely from a source of desire to reframe an already existing position, view point or address. In such the opportunity is given for the recipient to move out of a previous framework within which they had forund themselves placed by others.

The effect of which may not immediately go to change behavior, but the opportunity taken to experiment has intentioned to allow a new form of access to that individual, a new form of inter communicative exchange, a chance at being listened to maybe.

The result of which can allow for and create a momentary window of opportunity, for however long that lasts, both personally and historically, and no doubt will require to change with the times…that in turn creates a moment of freedom. Freedom from the usual, repetitive, boring, hypnotic, relentless drone of life…the one which at times we all need to switch off from.

So language can access a Self by a change from the norm, the ‘what I’ve got used to and automatically tune out from’, it can also express a desire to reach out, to include and therefore to heal. What is done after that is the following stages, requirements and demands of furthering deepening relationships of trust and growth.

Challenge can therefore crop up and be experienced as healthy, rather than alientating. Challenge having to come after trust has been established. And always challenge and language will carry both risk aswell as rewards. The relative value and potency of their usage will be engendered in the ability, skill, sensitivity and quality of relationship that is present.

In such a demanding area that evokes such intense feeling it is highly unlikely that everyone will ever agree on one sole solution or approach. Nor will there ever be an approach that will fit all. At least i hope not!

Our demands, dynamics and ideas are always changing, and so are those of others, its therefore important that as providers of healing and social inclusion we learn how to adapt and tolerate and also how to change.

I really understand the repulsion at PC language, but in context, it atleast allows someone to be included and recognise the attempt to include, how they react to that will change afterward, as it will atleast now allow them to release some of the hatred, pain and torture they have endured for so long, atleast now they have an audience, and therefore somewhere for the pain within to fall on and be heard. With out that first door openeing, one is still in the circle, and like we all know, when someone asks us how we feel and we don’t say “OK”, at least I know I do…I tell them about the crock of feelings and shit that is swilling around my gut and head. If I had’nt been invited in the first place, I might just have taken it to a Bar.!

Ed.

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:19:47 +0200 (CEST)

>
>   —–Original Message—–
>   From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
>   Sent: 28 March 2006 20:17
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>   Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
> and methadone
>
>
>
>   In a message dated 3/28/06 12:57:21 PM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
>   Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>   Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
> and methadone
>
>
>
>   In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>   Hi Howard,
>
>   Personally, I still feel that itâ?Ts a bit of a fantasy to suggest
that
> changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence will have
> a significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has been using a
> narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a period of years, then
> itâ?Ts pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks of their psyche will
> have been hard-wired to respond to many daily stimuli simply by using
> drugs. Itâ?Ts reptilian brain stuff and it takes a lot of will power to
> overcome, a lot of awareness. It can go on for years, way after
> recovery, as a lot of people will testify. Changing the way we refer to
> â?oaddictsâ?ť sounds nice and takes away some of the patient/doctor
> bullshit but stigmatizing language does also have its uses. Being > called
> â?oa fucking junkieâ?ť focuses your awareness on yourself and can draw
> someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so than some > of
> the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.
>
>   I donâ?Tt think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of
how
> society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present > and
> heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it for a
> while. In actuality, the adoption of the posture of having low
> self-esteem is, like the drug, merely another protection. And the
> stigmatization can always be removed. No one who takes full
> responsibility for their life gets to be called a junkie, regardless of
> their drug-using history.
>
>   Nick
>
>
>   Hi Nick,
>
>   I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people
> are treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they > act
> and respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in
> both long and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as
> other environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but,
> having another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it
> easier to gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing
> moderating or stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to
> change or moderate in your life.
>
>   Howard
>
>   Hi Howard,
>
>   I totally agree. Negative feedback or the use of stigmatizing > language
> does not serve all situations well, and for many would be completely
> counter-productive. But it is a very useful tool at times, and I think
> that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc
> terminology only the user would suffer. Finally, you are responsible > for
> your self-esteem, it has nothing to do with what the other is saying to
> you. Yes, we need compassion and help along the way but in the end how
> we view ourselves is down to us. For me, to ascribe such a level of
> potential benefit to the use of more gentle language, as Herman does, > is
> quite counter-productive to treating dependence, and furthermore
> irresponsible.
>
>   Nick
>
>
>   Hi Nick,
>
>   How we view ourselves is ultimately “down to us,” however we are all
the
> products of our environments in part. If we were not defined > negatively
> we would not perceive ourselves as negative. I would opt for your
> recognition that it is damaging to many and have to weight that heavily
> than it being rather beneficial to a few and I would add, very few. So
> I guess we will just have to disagree on whether treating people kindly
> and with respect precipitates a better return than treating them > cruelly
> and with disrespect. On the issue “that if the treatment of chemical
> dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would
> suffer” I have to disagree. At the time I passed Herman Joseph’s post
> to this list I had, with permission, also provided a post from the
> addict-L list to the methadone list. Maybe that would add useful
> discussion here and so I will present it as well. See below.
>
>   Howard
>
>
>     To the List:
>
>     But really, being ambivalent about treatment is not unique to
> addiction. Who hasn’t put off getting an annual physical? It’s
> common to dread surgery, mammograms, prostate evaluations. Cancer
> patients become almost phobic about receiving courses of cancer
> chemotherapy. Schizophrenics often can’t stand taking their
> medications because of the way the agents make them feel. Even blood
> pressure medication compliance is poor. Most diabetics do a terrible
> job with giving themselves insulin shots. And diet and exercise
> instructions are more typically ignored than adopted.
>
>     For all conditions other than addiction, such reluctance and
> half-hearted compliance is managed primarily by encouragment,
> patience, and empathy. Only with addiction is this same phenomenon
> pathologized and turned into a blame game. Approaching an addict’s
> reluctance the same way a clinician would approach a sufferer of any
> other disease becomes labelled as “co-dependent” or “enabling.”
>
>     That’s all hogwash. Having any disease sucks. Having to have
> treatment for any disease sucks. Being reluctant and ambivalent about
> receiving treatment for any disease is simply normal human behavior,
> not “addict behavior.” People with addictions are entitled to the
> same level of respect, professionalism, tolerance, and patience as
> those who suffer other diseases.
>
>     Best wishes,
>
>     Steve
>     Steve Coulter, MD
>
>
>
>
>
>   Howard,
>
>   I am not advocating an inhumane approach. This is not what it is > about
> at all. I am saying that, for me, empowerment of the individual is the
> core means by which dependence can be broken long-term. And the > absolute
> core of this approach is to adopt the position “I am 100% responsible
> for everything that happens to me.” It takes time, often a lot of time,
> and a lot of work is needed before someone can take this position. If a
> therapist starts from the position that addiction is the result of
> societal conditioning, I think it greatly weakens the process. That’s > my
> opinion.
>
>   Working with people, some with addiction issues, others with > different
> issues, it’s clear to me that treating addiction does have specific
> angles to it that make it distinct from other conditions. Again and
> again in addicts I do see this absolutely resolute desire not to
> self-examine, not to look at their behaviour. A lot of addicts are
> fucking great people, frankly, imo. But this issue is present, this
> incredible capacity to avoid. When treatment starts to go more down the
> pc road, I think you also have to check in that you’re not simply
> patronizing the whole “poor baby” routine. It is a very easy thing to > be
> popular with addicts, the easiest thing in the world, actually. You > just
> adopt a position that enables them to continue avoiding. It is easy to
> take a humane approach. What’s tougher is to stand up and say it like > it
> is.
>
>   Nick

In a way I wouldn’t like to do to others what I would not want to be done
to me,
if I were in the same position.

Sara

From: “Charles Rossouw” <kabel@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report
Date: March 30, 2006 at 8:59:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sara

Thanks. Being called a good friend by you is a great compliment.
And Guy – I know you’re doing good. Speak with you soon.

Love, respect

Charles

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 30 March 2006 01:04 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report

hi Guy
Charles is a good friend, I would love to come and visit SA and meet with
you too.

be well,

Sara

Hi Sara, sounds like you are doing good work! Keep it up. Do you know that
there is now a team of people in South Africa doing Ibogaine treatment. I
did it with them(IBO) and they were fantastic. Are you in touch with
Charles
in SA.

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 30 March 2006 10:09
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report

Howard,

thanks, I have already a contact with a Clinic that will do the after
care,
they were very positive with an ex client of mijn,and will accept
people directly after the detox. with Ibo.
thanks to Frank Leenders we will pick up the research again here in the
Netherlands.

Sara

In a message dated 3/25/06 11:40:15 AM, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:

this is on tonight here about the Iboga treatment.

best wishes,

Sara

http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=videoaudio.details&
reportage_id=4220

I asked one of my Dutch speaking friends to monitor the program and I
received a glowing report that follows. It would be very positive if the
Dutch were
to pick up the research. Very good work Sara.

Howard
*******************
This is a very positive pro-Ibogaine documentary. Nova also holds high
regard in terms of scientific reporting – it’s excellent – you can be
really
stoked about this.

Leenders and Fromberg simply explain that yes Ibogaine really works,
there
is no doubt about it and Fromberg says it even has been proven in
pharmacological research done in Rotterdam (not sure which research he’s
referring to). When asked about the “shady treatment settings” like the
ones
with Sara, Leenders says these settings are not shady at all. Where
there
is
demand there is supply, and if the government doesn’t provide it other
people will. He also says that Ibogaine is not a recreational substance,
that the experience is really intense and should be done under prop

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[%]
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/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 30, 2006 at 8:20:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Alberto,

It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying to the client, “Yo fuckwit you’re in a right fucking state!” I’m saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic process. I’m also saying that you have to watch a little the “poor baby” routine with this nice guy approach. It’s the easiest thing in the world to be the addict’s friend. You just don’t show them the place where they don’t want to go and they will love you forever. This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.

Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic pronouncements without awareness or experience. It’s this side of it that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with the higher mind, imo. It’s more reptilian brain stuff. There need to be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen experientially – maturation, resolution of conflict, increased awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy – for most this is the case. I don’t make pronouncements for everybody.

Nick

Hola:
Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language. Slowly will change the attitudes, it’s called neurolinguistic programing.
Saludos
Alberto
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Alberto Sola” <plago@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 8:50:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Tiger Lisa” <tigerlisa@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: amazingly gorgeous, out of this world….
Date: March 30, 2006 at 7:12:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Three-D fractals–WOW!
I’ve never seen anything like this!

http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?Form.SortOrder=UserName&Start=1&Artist=josleys&ByArtist=Yes

(This person’s actual website, www.josleys.com, is impossible to reach–apparently it is overcome with visitors right now–but this page has some AMAZINGLY gorgeous images!)

Love,
Lisa
The time has come… My mind has been….psychedelicized! 😉

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report
Date: March 30, 2006 at 6:04:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi Guy
Charles is a good friend, I would love to come and visit SA and meet with
you too.

be well,

Sara

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 30 March 2006 10:09
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report

Howard,

Sara

In a message dated 3/25/06 11:40:15 AM, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:

this is on tonight here about the Iboga treatment.

best wishes,

Sara

http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=videoaudio.details&
reportage_id=4220

I asked one of my Dutch speaking friends to monitor the program and I
received a glowing report that follows. It would be very positive if the
Dutch were
to pick up the research. Very good work Sara.

Howard
*******************
This is a very positive pro-Ibogaine documentary. Nova also holds high
regard in terms of scientific reporting – it’s excellent – you can be
really
stoked about this.

From: “Guy Bragge” <guybragge@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report
Date: March 30, 2006 at 5:25:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 30 March 2006 10:09
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report

Howard,

thanks, I have already a contact with a Clinic that will do the after care,
they were very positive with an ex client of mijn,and will accept
people directly after the detox. with Ibo.
thanks to Frank Leenders we will pick up the research again here in the
Netherlands.

Sara

In a message dated 3/25/06 11:40:15 AM, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:

this is on tonight here about the Iboga treatment.

best wishes,

Sara

http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=videoaudio.details&
reportage_id=4220

I asked one of my Dutch speaking friends to monitor the program and I
received a glowing report that follows. It would be very positive if the
Dutch were
to pick up the research. Very good work Sara.

Howard
*******************
This is a very positive pro-Ibogaine documentary. Nova also holds high
regard in terms of scientific reporting – it’s excellent – you can be
really
stoked about this.

Leenders and Fromberg simply explain that yes Ibogaine really works, there
is no doubt about it and Fromberg says it even has been proven in
pharmacological research done in Rotterdam (not sure which research he’s
referring to). When asked about the “shady treatment settings” like the
ones
with Sara, Leenders says these settings are not shady at all. Where there
is
demand there is supply, and if the government doesn’t provide it other
people will. He also says that Ibogaine is not a recreational substance,
that the experience is really intense and should be done under proper
guidance.

It is the Ministry of Health that come out as the bad guys for not
studying
Ibogaine. The Ministry admits comparing Ibogaine to
Naltrexone-under-narcosis and they are saying that since Naltrexone didn’t
work with cravings then Ibogaine would be doubtable in this department as
well. They are somewhat vaguely saying that this now might be a wrong
assumption.

The documentary ends on the note saying that Ibogaine is not being
research
in Holland (and it really is making the Dutch government look like idiots
because they mention this) and that it IS being researched in other
countries, like the USA and that conclusive, positive information is
expected within the next few years as to how/why it works.

Wow! Very, very cool documentary. Be stoked, very stoked! Leenders and
Fromberg are 100+% behind Ibogaine, nothing but super-positive stuff from
them; they are your allies.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report
Date: March 30, 2006 at 3:08:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard,

thanks, I have already a contact with a Clinic that will do the after care,
they were very positive with an ex client of mijn,and will accept
people directly after the detox. with Ibo.
thanks to Frank Leenders we will pick up the research again here in the
Netherlands.

Sara

In a message dated 3/25/06 11:40:15 AM, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:

this is on tonight here about the Iboga treatment.

best wishes,

Sara

http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=videoaudio.details&
reportage_id=4220

I asked one of my Dutch speaking friends to monitor the program and I
received a glowing report that follows. It would be very positive if the
Dutch were
to pick up the research. Very good work Sara.

Howard
*******************
This is a very positive pro-Ibogaine documentary. Nova also holds high
regard in terms of scientific reporting – it’s excellent – you can be
really
stoked about this.

Leenders and Fromberg simply explain that yes Ibogaine really works, there
is no doubt about it and Fromberg says it even has been proven in
pharmacological research done in Rotterdam (not sure which research he’s
referring to). When asked about the “shady treatment settings” like the
ones
with Sara, Leenders says these settings are not shady at all. Where there
is
demand there is supply, and if the government doesn’t provide it other
people will. He also says that Ibogaine is not a recreational substance,
that the experience is really intense and should be done under proper
guidance.

Wow! Very, very cool documentary. Be stoked, very stoked! Leenders and
Fromberg are 100+% behind Ibogaine, nothing but super-positive stuff from
them; they are your allies.

From: captkirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: OT Capt Kirk..
Date: March 29, 2006 at 11:36:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have seen just this on American tv – it’s called Boston
Legal, and he/Shatner plays a theorizing alpha
establishment male bandit confronting senility. Humping
his own image with lusty abandon.

Ohhh yehhh I haven’t seen much of Boston Legal, but what I
have seen cracks me up, loved the one where they boys were
going to a cabin to “touch themselves…. urhhh GET in touch
with themselves” then he gets pissed off trying to catch
fish with a rod so storms off and comes back with a shotgun
to blow the fish outta the water.
A very funny documentary is “How Trekkies Changed the World”
I am still blown away by how much technology was invented by
geeks who watched Star Trek when they were kids (um, or
adults..)!!!! Shatner takes the mickey out of himself and
Star Trek on a regular basis. How could he not?
Gotta love the captain….(also like the story told my a
friend of his, of when they were all out playing Paint Ball,
Shatner was losing so he feigned a heart attack and when the
players came to his aid he shot them all. Excellent Star
Trek tactics!! Play possum. WE COME IN PEACE, SHOOT TO
KILL.)
Capt Kirsty Koiky Kirk

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Sara on Dutch TV – NOVA ibogaine report
Date: March 30, 2006 at 1:06:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/25/06 11:40:15 AM, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:

this is on tonight here about the Iboga treatment.

best wishes,

Sara

http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=videoaudio.details&reportage_id=4220

I asked one of my Dutch speaking friends to monitor the program and I received a glowing report that follows. It would be very positive if the Dutch were to pick up the research. Very good work Sara.

Howard
*******************
This is a very positive pro-Ibogaine documentary. Nova also holds high
regard in terms of scientific reporting – it’s excellent – you can be really
stoked about this.

Leenders and Fromberg simply explain that yes Ibogaine really works, there
is no doubt about it and Fromberg says it even has been proven in
pharmacological research done in Rotterdam (not sure which research he’s
referring to). When asked about the “shady treatment settings” like the ones
with Sara, Leenders says these settings are not shady at all. Where there is
demand there is supply, and if the government doesn’t provide it other
people will. He also says that Ibogaine is not a recreational substance,
that the experience is really intense and should be done under proper
guidance.

It is the Ministry of Health that come out as the bad guys for not studying
Ibogaine. The Ministry admits comparing Ibogaine to
Naltrexone-under-narcosis and they are saying that since Naltrexone didn’t
work with cravings then Ibogaine would be doubtable in this department as
well. They are somewhat vaguely saying that this now might be a wrong
assumption.

The documentary ends on the note saying that Ibogaine is not being research
in Holland (and it really is making the Dutch government look like idiots
because they mention this) and that it IS being researched in other
countries, like the USA and that conclusive, positive information is
expected within the next few years as to how/why it works.

Wow! Very, very cool documentary. Be stoked, very stoked! Leenders and
Fromberg are 100+% behind Ibogaine, nothing but super-positive stuff from
them; they are your allies.

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Alan/meth…
Date: March 29, 2006 at 11:18:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The
Search for Jim’s Genitals..).

I have seen just this on American tv – it’s called Boston Legal,
and he/Shatner plays a theorizing alpha establishment male bandit
confronting senility. Humping his own image with lusty abandon.

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:37:52 -0800 Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
wrote:
HI Alan,

That would be, thanks for the info, Ma’am lol (Captain Jane Kirk.
things got
messed up in the transporter, stay tuned for episode of Star Trek,

The
Search for Jim’s Genitals..).

There is information on Mindvox about what you wish to do, as well

as far
more qualified people than myself to give you what you need to
know. I am
in New Zealand and thank the Dog’s that be it’s not illegal
here…my advice
to you is research research ask many questions, they will be
answered..

As for myself, I did what is called Step Dosing of ibogaine. in
which I had
my last drink of done (came off 30 mg’s) then pretty much waited
for the
w/d’s to set in, then started taking small amounts of Ibogaine
HCL. I am
most happy to inform you that the symptoms went away! On the
third day,
not due to any major discomfort, more a time frame had to be kept
as my Ibo
provider couldn’t stay for long, so the Flood dose (large dose)
was
administered. I’ve been, um, debating the importance of this
flood dose
with a friend (actually Ex of 8 years lol) who also wishes to just

take
small amounts to stop the w/d’s. He feels he knows how and why
he’s
addicted and doesn’t like any form of tripping type substances.
Anyway..if
anyone has any suggestions or experience with low dosing (was
interesting to
read about long term pain patients using ibo to reduce tolerance
on a
regular basis..,.) be interested to read.

All the best Alan, I hope the chance to take Ibogaine comes your
way in
some way or other..as far as detoxes go it was a picnic.

Kirk (aka kirsty)

_____

From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 8:12 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses

Hey Kirk,

(Orlando,
Florida) and have no way to get ahold of ibogaine. I totally
believe that if
I had the ibogaine, and some basic idea of usage, I could use
small amounts
to taper-off rather quickly…I’m almost forty and not in the
greatest
shape, so I would rather do it this way, than the all-out, all at
once
method, anyway. My problem is getting ahold of the ibogaine, and
someone to
give me a basic idea of how to use small doses to stave off the
withdrawal
from dropping…actually, as far as the last, I would even take my

chances
with experimentation…but the other problem is more difficult. Do

you know
if you can obtain ibogaine from a doctor’s office in Mexico? I’ve
heard many
clinics there just ask you what’s wrong, and then give you a sheet

listing
drugs, and you just circle the ones you want…I’ve also heard
that for
white (and I could make myself look conservative) don’t get
hassled too much
coming back across. Any ideas?
………………………………..Sincerely, Alan.

_____

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:28:23 +1200

What’s up with the internet??? Or are people just feeling
repetitive??? Lol

Alan I have to say that coming off Methadone using Ibogaine was
NOT hell in
the least. Compared to regular detox. And with methadone, it
doesn’t seem
to matter how small the dose when you come off, it’s still a
bitch. Not
with ibogaine. Hallelooooyah bless th’ ‘Boga!!!!!!! (I have
also thought
that using Ibogaine to come off an IV habit would be easier than
methadone,
or other stuff that is absorbed thru the stomach lining instead of

blood
stream? )

Kirk 🙂

_____

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500

in a
respectful manner. I think many “junkies” may have chemical
imbalances in
their brain, and opiates correct this. So, the determination to
keep using
may have more to do with the person finally feeling ‘complete’–
and not the
ever-pounded-in idea that ‘once a junkie always a junkie’. Also,
most of the
problems that arrise from heroin use have more to do with its
prohibition,
which causes it to be so expensive. I did heroin for years, but I
never
stole or anything–I continued to work my ass off at my job. But
it did take
all my money, and alot of my possessions ended up in the pawn
shop. It did
not change who I was basically as a person. Furthermore, if the
doctors I
went to see before I had ever started opiates, had given me the
benzodiazepines that I requested (for I have very bad nerves and
panic
attacks) there’s a good chance that I never would have gotten
hooked on
heroin…although, I must admit, that opiates did what benzos did
for me
plus alot more. It’s very darkly funny and ironic that doctors
have no
problem with putting someone on prozac or some tricyclic anti-
depressant for
the rest of the patients lives, but act as though one is insane to

request
the same thing for other more controversial drugs.

Also, as far as methadone goes–and I do have experience with

this
drug, both through research and the fact that I’ve been a patient
for 7
years–I think very, very few people truly need a dose over 50
milligrams…Now, if they’ve been really heavy users of heroin,
yes, they
might not be immediately comfortable at 50 milligrams..but if they

gave it a
little time, I believe it would soon ‘hold’ them just fine. Of
course, there
are exceptions. But let me say this: clinics are very frustrating;

they are
all different, some better than others…Profit making clinics
will start
someone on methadone before they even get back the results showing
opiates..a person could take a couple Tylenol 3’s (with codeine)
and then
start on a very powerful painkiller. I was very skeptical myself
when I
first started on methadone–it hard to believe that what looks
like a few
drops of red liquid, or one small wafer, could possibly replace
the half
gram a day of mexican brown that I was shooting…But at 30 mgs,
what they
start one at, it held me most of the day; and by fifity, I was
ready to
stop…unfortunately, I still hadn’t gotten over the whole outlaw
and needle
fixation and continued to use, which gave them the excuse to keep
raising my
dose..I tried to explain to them that I wasn’t using because I was
withdrawaling, but they wouldn’t listen. Profit making clinics–at

least the
one I went to–do everything in their power to get you totally
addicted…And once they have you, forget about it! And if they
don’t like
ANYTHING that you’re doing, they hold the prospect of a rapid (10
day) detox
over your head!

hoops of
a clinic–depending on how bad or good the clinic is. My opinion
is this–if
you want to get off heroin, methadone is a great way–but don’t
stay on it
longer than 6 months, and don’t go over, at the very highest, 100
milligrams. That way, getting off won’t be too hard…and if you
re-lapse,
you can always try again. But if you stay on methadone, at any
dose really,
but esp. a high one, for over two years, it will change your body
chemistry
and get into every part of your body–stored in your liver, bones,

etc. And
if you ever decide to get off..well, your chances are very slim,
unless you
are able to handle withdrawal very well, or can get to a treatment

program,
like one of the ibogaine ones–and even then, you are still going
to have to
go thru hell to be free. Methadone makes kicking Heroin seem
easy…and it’s
not the intensity…in fact, Heroin, for the worse period, is more
intense–it’s the duration of the withdrawal that does one in…At

the VERY
least, you will withdrawal for a solid month. But most people
experience
pretty intense withdrawal for about two months, and lingering
withdrawal for
up to a year. And unlike Heroin withdrawal, where you occasionaly
wear
yourself out enough to sleep, YOU WILL NOT SLEEP A WINK during
methadone
withdrawal. I once missed just two days (and real withdrawal
doesn’t even
begin till the 3rd or 4th day). I took about 15 milligrams of
Xanax, in
desperation for sleep. And I did sleep–for about one hour. Then I

was wide
awake again! And the Xanax were good, because I had a helluva time
walking..but no sleep. You get like a slingshot effect…from
being sedated
for so long, when it wears off, everything is painfully intense.
This is
party due to the fact that when you withdrawal, your body releases
adrenaline. Methadone can be an angel of mercy–it can also be
your worse
nightmare. So, I would be very carefull in advocating to anyone
larger
doses…unless they don’t mind staying on it for the rest of their
lives….and there’s also always the possibility that one of these

many
over-due catastrophes (earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis,
asteroids, birdflu,
hurricanes, etc) may strike, destroying the infrastructure of your

town or a
larger area. Image, on top of all the other hell, the suffering
that
methadone patients went thru in New Orleans after Katrina?

Well, I tent to be long-winded, and I apologize if I’ve
rambled on for
too long. I just feel very strongly about these issues. I wish you

all well!
We need to get ibogaine approved for use in the U.S.! I’ve finally

found
something that could help, and once again it’s blocked by the
crazy
legislations of this country!

_____

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time,
HSLotsof@aol.com writes:

you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is
quite a mix

That is quite a mix! Do you even feel the oxycontins? I would
guess not
since you report doing 15-25 a day.

I have found that Methadone blocks any euphoria or other desired
actions
from opiates. Honestly, if you double dose and are a dose short
you would
probably feel the same if you take the oxys or not.

I think that is your psychological obsession to ‘need’ those 15-25

oxys on a
day without your Methadone. Physically you should not feel
withdrawals if
you go a day without dosing. I say that because Methadone is such
a long
acting substance.

I always think I feel like shit if I miss a day and don’t have my
115 mg of
Methadone but it is psychological and not physical.

Peace out, Callie

_____

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From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: March 29, 2006 at 6:11:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for the link, biscuitboy, I will check those sites out. They just always seem to cost so much money, though! But perhaps I’m speaking too soon. At any rate, I appreciate it! And I love Parliament Funkadelic!

From:  biscuitboy714@aol.com
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:52:05 -0500
>Alan, do a google on Ibeginagain. I think that is how you spell it.
>Check it out.        Free your mind and your ass will follow.
>(George Clinton)           Randy
>
>—–Original Message—–
>From: Alan Hehe <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Sent: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:12:24 -0500
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
>
>
>
>
>
>    Hey Kirk,
>
>     Thanks for the info, man. I totally believe you! Actually, I
>would like to use small amounts of ibogaine in combination with a
>relatively rapid taper-off…My problems are two, though:one, I
>can’t afford the 5 day program at any of the detox places, and
>second, I live in the U.S. (Orlando, Florida) and have no way to get
>ahold of ibogaine. I totally believe that if I had the ibogaine, and
>some basic idea of usage, I could use small amounts to taper-off
>rather quickly…I’m almost forty and not in the greatest shape, so
>I would rather do it this way, than the all-out, all at once method,
>anyway. My problem is getting ahold of the ibogaine, and someone to
>give me a basic idea of how to use small doses to stave off the
>withdrawal from dropping…actually, as far as the last, I would
>even take my chances with experimentation…but the other problem is
>more difficult. Do you know if you can obtain ibogaine from a
>doctor’s office in Mexico? I’ve heard many clinics there just ask
>you what’s wrong, and then give you a sheet listing drugs, and you
>just circle the ones you want…I’ve also heard that for white (and
>I could make myself look conservative) don’t get hassled too much
>coming back across. Any ideas?
>………………………………..Sincerely, Alan.
>
>
>
>  ——–
>From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:28:23 +1200
>
>       What’s up with the internet??? Or are people just feeling
>repetitive??? Lol
>
>  Alan I have to say that coming off Methadone using Ibogaine was
>NOT hell in the least. Compared to regular detox. And with
>methadone, it doesn’t seem to matter how small the dose when you
>come off, it’s still a bitch.   Not with ibogaine. Hallelooooyah
>bless th’ ‘Boga!!!!!!!   (I have also thought that using Ibogaine to
>come off an IV habit would be easier than methadone, or other stuff
>that is absorbed thru the stomach lining instead of blood stream? )
>
>Kirk J
>
>
>
>   ——–
>
>From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500
>
>
>
>
>
>   I totally agree with Preston on this; I think being called a
>”fucking junkie” would have more to do with low self-esteem than
>anything…I don’t know if changing terminology will make a big
>difference as far as a person’s behavior goes, but we all certainly
>have the right to be addressed in a respectful manner. I think many
>”junkies” may have chemical imbalances in their brain, and opiates
>correct this. So, the determination to keep using may have more to
>do with the person finally feeling ‘complete’–and not the
>ever-pounded-in idea that ‘once a junkie always a junkie’. Also,
>most of the problems that arrise from heroin use have more to do
>with its prohibition, which causes it to be so expensive. I did
>heroin for years, but I never stole or anything–I continued to work
>my ass off at my job. But it did take all my money, and alot of my
>possessions ended up in the pawn shop. It did not change who I was
>basically as a person. Furthermore, if the doctors I went to see
>before I had ever started opiates, had given me the benzodiazepines
>that I requested (for I have very bad nerves and panic attacks)
>there’s a good chance that I never would have gotten hooked on
>heroin…although, I must admit, that opiates did what benzos did
>for me plus alot more. It’s very darkly funny and ironic that
>doctors have no problem with putting someone on prozac or some
>tricyclic anti-depressant for the rest of the patients lives, but
>act as though one is insane to request the same thing for other more
>controversial drugs.
>
>       Also, as far as methadone goes–and I do have experience with
>this drug, both through research and the fact that I’ve been a
>patient for 7 years–I think very, very few people truly need a dose
>over 50 milligrams…Now, if they’ve been really heavy users of
>heroin, yes, they might not be immediately comfortable at 50
>milligrams..but if they gave it a little time, I believe it would
>soon ‘hold’ them just fine. Of course, there are exceptions. But let
>me say this: clinics are very frustrating; they are all different,
>some better than others…Profit making clinics will start someone
>on methadone before they even get back the results showing
>opiates..a person could take a couple Tylenol 3’s (with codeine) and
>then start on a very powerful painkiller. I was very skeptical
>myself when I first started on methadone–it hard to believe that
>what looks like a few drops of red liquid, or one small wafer, could
>possibly replace the half gram a day of mexican brown that I was
>shooting…But at 30 mgs, what they start one at, it held me most of
>the day; and by fifity, I was ready to stop…unfortunately, I still
>hadn’t gotten over the whole outlaw and needle fixation and
>continued to use, which gave them the excuse to keep raising my
>dose..I tried to explain to them that I wasn’t using because I was
>withdrawaling, but they wouldn’t listen. Profit making clinics–at
>least the one I went to–do everything in their power to get you
>totally addicted…And once they have you, forget about it! And if
>they don’t like ANYTHING that you’re doing, they hold the prospect
>of a rapid (10 day) detox over your head!
>
>        There will come a time, in most addicts lives, when they
>decide that they either want to be free of opiates–maybe, maybe
>not–but it won’t take long for the person to become totally fed up
>with jumping thru the hoops of a clinic–depending on how bad or
>good the clinic is. My opinion is this–if you want to get off
>heroin, methadone is a great way–but don’t stay on it longer than 6
>months, and don’t go over, at the very highest, 100 milligrams. That
>way, getting off won’t be too hard…and if you re-lapse, you can
>always try again. But if you stay on methadone, at any dose really,
>but esp. a high one, for over two years, it will change your body
>chemistry and get into every part of your body–stored in your
>liver, bones, etc. And if you ever decide to get off..well, your
>chances are very slim, unless you are able to handle withdrawal very
>well, or can get to a treatment program, like one of the ibogaine
>ones–and even then, you are still going to have to go thru hell to
>be free. Methadone makes kicking Heroin seem easy…and it’s not the
>intensity…in fact, Heroin, for the worse period, is more
>intense–it’s the duration of the withdrawal that does one in…At
>the VERY least, you will withdrawal for a solid month. But most
>people experience pretty intense withdrawal for about two months,
>and lingering withdrawal for up to a year. And unlike Heroin
>withdrawal, where you occasionaly wear yourself out enough to sleep,
>YOU WILL NOT SLEEP A WINK during methadone withdrawal. I once missed
>just two days (and real withdrawal doesn’t even begin till the 3rd
>or 4th day). I took about 15 milligrams of Xanax, in desperation for
>sleep. And I did sleep–for about one hour. Then I was wide awake
>again! And the Xanax were good, because I had a helluva time
>walking..but no sleep. You get like a slingshot effect…from being
>sedated for so long, when it wears off, everything is painfully
>intense. This is party due to the fact that when you withdrawal,
>your body releases adrenaline. Methadone can be an angel of
>mercy–it can also be your worse nightmare. So, I would be very
>carefull in advocating to anyone larger doses…unless they don’t
>mind staying on it for the rest of their lives….and there’s also
>always the possibility that one of these many over-due catastrophes
>(earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, asteroids, birdflu, hurricanes,
>etc) may strike, destroying the infrastructure of your town or a
>larger area. Image, on top of all the other hell, the suffering that
>methadone patients went thru in New Orleans after Katrina?
>
>      Well, I tent to be long-winded, and I apologize if I’ve
>rambled on for too long. I just feel very strongly about these
>issues. I wish you all well! We need to get ibogaine approved for
>use in the U.S.! I’ve finally found something that could help, and
>once again it’s blocked by the crazy legislations of this country!
>
>
>   ——–
>
>
>
>   ——–
>
>From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST
>
>
>
>
>    In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard
>Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
>
>
>   you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is
>quite a mix
>
>
>   That is quite a mix! Do you even feel the oxycontins? I would
>guess not since you report doing 15-25 a day.
>
>
>   I have found that Methadone blocks any euphoria or other desired
>actions from opiates. Honestly, if you double dose and are a dose
>short you would probably feel the same if you take the oxys or not.
>
>
>   I think that is your psychological obsession to ‘need’ those
>15-25 oxys on a day without your Methadone. Physically you should
>not feel withdrawals if you go a day without dosing. I say that
>because Methadone is such a long acting substance.
>
>
>   I always think I feel like shit if I miss a day and don’t have my
>115 mg of Methadone but it is psychological and not physical.
>
>
>  Peace out, Callie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ——–
>
>  Make FREE PC-to-PC calls with MSN Messenger. Get it now!
>/]=———————————————————————=
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>\]=———————————————————————=
>[/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ——–
>
>  Find flowers, candy and directions to a romantic restaurant with
>Windows Live Local
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=
>[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>\]=———————————————————————=
>[/
>
>
>
>——–
>  Get MSN Messenger with FREE Video Conversation – the next best
>thing to being there!
>/]=———————————————————————=
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>[/
>
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

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From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: March 29, 2006 at 5:52:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Alan, do a google on Ibeginagain. I think that is how you spell it. Check it out. Free your mind and your ass will follow. (George Clinton) Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Alan Hehe <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:12:24 -0500
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses

Hey Kirk,

Thanks for the info, man. I totally believe you! Actually, I would like to use small amounts of ibogaine in combination with a relatively rapid taper-off…My problems are two, though:one, I can’t afford the 5 day program at any of the detox places, and second, I live in the U.S. (Orlando, Florida) and have no way to get ahold of ibogaine. I totally believe that if I had the ibogaine, and some basic idea of usage, I could use small amounts to taper-off rather quickly…I’m almost forty and not in the greatest shape, so I would rather do it this way, than the all-out, all at once method, anyway. My problem is getting ahold of the ibogaine, and someone to give me a basic idea of how to use small doses to stave off the withdrawal from dropping…actually, as far as the last, I would even take my chances with experimentation…but the other problem is more difficult. Do you know if you can obtain ibogaine from a doctor’s office in Mexico? I’ve heard many clinics there just ask you what’s wrong, and then give you a sheet listing drugs, and you just circle the ones you want…I’ve also heard that for white (and I could make myself look conservative) don’t get hassled too much coming back across. Any ideas? ………………………………..Sincerely, Alan.

——–
From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:28:23 +1200

What’s up with the internet??? Or are people just feeling repetitive??? Lol

Alan I have to say that coming off Methadone using Ibogaine was NOT hell in the least. Compared to regular detox. And with methadone, it doesn’t seem to matter how small the dose when you come off, it’s still a bitch. Not with ibogaine. Hallelooooyah bless th’ ‘Boga!!!!!!! (I have also thought that using Ibogaine to come off an IV habit would be easier than methadone, or other stuff that is absorbed thru the stomach lining instead of blood stream? )

Kirk J

——–

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500

Also, as far as methadone goes–and I do have experience with this drug, both through research and the fact that I’ve been a patient for 7 years–I think very, very few people truly need a dose over 50 milligrams…Now, if they’ve been really heavy users of heroin, yes, they might not be immediately comfortable at 50 milligrams..but if they gave it a little time, I believe it would soon ‘hold’ them just fine. Of course, there are exceptions. But let me say this: clinics are very frustrating; they are all different, some better than others…Profit making clinics will start someone on methadone before they even get back the results showing opiates..a person could take a couple Tylenol 3’s (with codeine) and then start on a very powerful painkiller. I was very skeptical myself when I first started on methadone–it hard to believe that what looks like a few drops of red liquid, or one small wafer, could possibly replace the half gram a day of mexican brown that I was shooting…But at 30 mgs, what they start one at, it held me most of the day; and by fifity, I was ready to stop…unfortunately, I still hadn’t gotten over the whole outlaw and needle fixation and continued to use, which gave them the excuse to keep raising my dose..I tried to explain to them that I wasn’t using because I was withdrawaling, but they wouldn’t listen. Profit making clinics–at least the one I went to–do everything in their power to get you totally addicted…And once they have you, forget about it! And if they don’t like ANYTHING that you’re doing, they hold the prospect of a rapid (10 day) detox over your head!

There will come a time, in most addicts lives, when they decide that they either want to be free of opiates–maybe, maybe not–but it won’t take long for the person to become totally fed up with jumping thru the hoops of a clinic–depending on how bad or good the clinic is. My opinion is this–if you want to get off heroin, methadone is a great way–but don’t stay on it longer than 6 months, and don’t go over, at the very highest, 100 milligrams. That way, getting off won’t be too hard…and if you re-lapse, you can always try again. But if you stay on methadone, at any dose really, but esp. a high one, for over two years, it will change your body chemistry and get into every part of your body–stored in your liver, bones, etc. And if you ever decide to get off..well, your chances are very slim, unless you are able to handle withdrawal very well, or can get to a treatment program, like one of the ibogaine ones–and even then, you are still going to have to go thru hell to be free. Methadone makes kicking Heroin seem easy…and it’s not the intensity…in fact, Heroin, for the worse period, is more intense–it’s the duration of the withdrawal that does one in…At the VERY least, you will withdrawal for a solid month. But most people experience pretty intense withdrawal for about two months, and lingering withdrawal for up to a year. And unlike Heroin withdrawal, where you occasionaly wear yourself out enough to sleep, YOU WILL NOT SLEEP A WINK during methadone withdrawal. I once missed just two days (and real withdrawal doesn’t even begin till the 3rd or 4th day). I took about 15 milligrams of Xanax, in desperation for sleep. And I did sleep–for about one hour. Then I was wide awake again! And the Xanax were good, because I had a helluva time walking..but no sleep. You get like a slingshot effect…from being sedated for so long, when it wears off, everything is painfully intense. This is party due to the fact that when you withdrawal, your body releases adrenaline. Methadone can be an angel of mercy–it can also be your worse nightmare. So, I would be very carefull in advocating to anyone larger doses…unless they don’t mind staying on it for the rest of their lives….and there’s also always the possibility that one of these many over-due catastrophes (earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, asteroids, birdflu, hurricanes, etc) may strike, destroying the infrastructure of your town or a larger area. Image, on top of all the other hell, the suffering that methadone patients went thru in New Orleans after Katrina?

Well, I tent to be long-winded, and I apologize if I’ve rambled on for too long. I just feel very strongly about these issues. I wish you all well! We need to get ibogaine approved for use in the U.S.! I’ve finally found something that could help, and once again it’s blocked by the crazy legislations of this country!

——–

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:

you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix

That is quite a mix! Do you even feel the oxycontins? I would guess not since you report doing 15-25 a day.

I have found that Methadone blocks any euphoria or other desired actions from opiates. Honestly, if you double dose and are a dose short you would probably feel the same if you take the oxys or not.

I think that is your psychological obsession to ‘need’ those 15-25 oxys on a day without your Methadone. Physically you should not feel withdrawals if you go a day without dosing. I say that because Methadone is such a long acting substance.

I always think I feel like shit if I miss a day and don’t have my 115 mg of Methadone but it is psychological and not physical.

Peace out, Callie

——–

Find flowers, candy and directions to a romantic restaurant with Windows Live Local

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From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Junkie self-esteem and Methadone doses
Date: March 29, 2006 at 11:36:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Planning a trip for Spring Break? See the area before you go /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: Alan/meth…
Date: March 29, 2006 at 5:37:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Alan,
That would be, thanks for the info, Ma’am lol (Captain Jane Kirk… things got messed up in the transporter, stay tuned for episode of Star Trek, The Search for Jim’s Genitals……).
There is information on Mindvox about what you wish to do, as well as far more qualified people than myself to give you what you need to know. I am in New Zealand and thank the Dog’s that be it’s not illegal here…..my advice to you is research research ask many questions, they will be answered….
As for myself, I did what is called Step Dosing of ibogaine… in which I had my last drink of done (came off 30 mg’s) then pretty much waited for the w/d’s to set in, then started taking small amounts of Ibogaine HCL. I am most happy to inform you that the symptoms went away! On the third day, not due to any major discomfort, more a time frame had to be kept as my Ibo provider couldn’t stay for long, so the Flood dose (large dose) was administered. I’ve been, um, debating the importance of this flood dose with a friend (actually Ex of 8 years lol) who also wishes to just take small amounts to stop the w/d’s. He feels he knows how and why he’s addicted and doesn’t like any form of tripping type substances. Anyway….if anyone has any suggestions or experience with low dosing (was interesting to read about long term pain patients using ibo to reduce tolerance on a regular basis..,…) be interested to read.
All the best Alan, I hope the chance to take Ibogaine comes your way in some way or other….as far as detoxes go it was a picnic.
Kirk (aka kirsty)

From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68@hotmail.com]  Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 8:12 a.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:28:23 +1200
What’s up with the internet??? Or are people just feeling repetitive??? Lol
Alan I have to say that coming off Methadone using Ibogaine was NOT hell in the least. Compared to regular detox. And with methadone, it doesn’t seem to matter how small the dose when you come off, it’s still a bitch. Not with ibogaine. Hallelooooyah bless th’ ‘Boga!!!!!!! (I have also thought that using Ibogaine to come off an IV habit would be easier than methadone, or other stuff that is absorbed thru the stomach lining instead of blood stream? )
Kirk J
From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: March 29, 2006 at 3:12:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:28:23 +1200

Whats up with the internet??? Or are people just feeling repetitive??? Lol
Alan I have to say that coming off Methadone using Ibogaine was NOT hell in the least. Compared to regular detox. And with methadone, it doesnt seem to matter how small the dose when you come off, its still a bitch. Not with ibogaine. Hallelooooyah bless th Boga!!!!!!! (I have also thought that using Ibogaine to come off an IV habit would be easier than methadone, or other stuff that is absorbed thru the stomach lining instead of blood stream? )
Kirk J
From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500

Get MSN Messenger with FREE Video Conversation – the next best thing to being there! /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “edward conn” <wardconn@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 2:41:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’d like to comment on this,

In such a demanding area that evokes such intense feeling it is highly unlikely that everyone will ever agree on one sole solution or approach. Nor will there ever be an approach that will fit all. At least i hope not!

Ed.

>
>   —–Original Message—–
>   From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
>   Sent: 28 March 2006 20:17
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>   Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
> and methadone
>
>
>
>   In a message dated 3/28/06 12:57:21 PM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
>   Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>   Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
> and methadone
>
>
>
>   In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>   Hi Howard,
>
>   Personally, I still feel that it’s a bit of a fantasy to suggest that
> changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence will have
> a significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has been using a
> narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a period of years, then
> it’s pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks of their psyche will
> have been hard-wired to respond to many daily stimuli simply by using
> drugs. It’s reptilian brain stuff and it takes a lot of will power to
> overcome, a lot of awareness. It can go on for years, way after
> recovery, as a lot of people will testify. Changing the way we refer to
> “addicts” sounds nice and takes away some of the patient/doctor
> bullshit but stigmatizing language does also have its uses. Being called
> “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on yourself and can draw
> someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so than some of
> the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.
>
>   I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of how
> society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present and
> heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it for a
> while. In actuality, the adoption of the posture of having low
> self-esteem is, like the drug, merely another protection. And the
> stigmatization can always be removed. No one who takes full
> responsibility for their life gets to be called a junkie, regardless of
> their drug-using history.
>
>   Nick
>
>
>   Hi Nick,
>
>   I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people
> are treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act
> and respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in
> both long and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as
> other environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but,
> having another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it
> easier to gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing
> moderating or stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to
> change or moderate in your life.
>
>   Howard
>
>   Hi Howard,
>
>   I totally agree. Negative feedback or the use of stigmatizing language
> does not serve all situations well, and for many would be completely
> counter-productive. But it is a very useful tool at times, and I think
> that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc
> terminology only the user would suffer. Finally, you are responsible for
> your self-esteem, it has nothing to do with what the other is saying to
> you. Yes, we need compassion and help along the way but in the end how
> we view ourselves is down to us. For me, to ascribe such a level of
> potential benefit to the use of more gentle language, as Herman does, is
> quite counter-productive to treating dependence, and furthermore
> irresponsible.
>
>   Nick
>
>
>   Hi Nick,
>
>   How we view ourselves is ultimately “down to us,” however we are all the
> products of our environments in part. If we were not defined negatively
> we would not perceive ourselves as negative. I would opt for your
> recognition that it is damaging to many and have to weight that heavily
> than it being rather beneficial to a few and I would add, very few. So
> I guess we will just have to disagree on whether treating people kindly
> and with respect precipitates a better return than treating them cruelly
> and with disrespect. On the issue “that if the treatment of chemical
> dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would
> suffer” I have to disagree. At the time I passed Herman Joseph’s post
> to this list I had, with permission, also provided a post from the
> addict-L list to the methadone list. Maybe that would add useful
> discussion here and so I will present it as well. See below.
>
>   Howard
>
>
>     To the List:
>
>     But really, being ambivalent about treatment is not unique to
> addiction. Who hasn’t put off getting an annual physical? It’s
> common to dread surgery, mammograms, prostate evaluations. Cancer
> patients become almost phobic about receiving courses of cancer
> chemotherapy. Schizophrenics often can’t stand taking their
> medications because of the way the agents make them feel. Even blood
> pressure medication compliance is poor. Most diabetics do a terrible
> job with giving themselves insulin shots. And diet and exercise
> instructions are more typically ignored than adopted.
>
>     For all conditions other than addiction, such reluctance and
> half-hearted compliance is managed primarily by encouragment,
> patience, and empathy. Only with addiction is this same phenomenon
> pathologized and turned into a blame game. Approaching an addict’s
> reluctance the same way a clinician would approach a sufferer of any
> other disease becomes labelled as “co-dependent” or “enabling.”
>
>     That’s all hogwash. Having any disease sucks. Having to have
> treatment for any disease sucks. Being reluctant and ambivalent about
> receiving treatment for any disease is simply normal human behavior,
> not “addict behavior.” People with addictions are entitled to the
> same level of respect, professionalism, tolerance, and patience as
> those who suffer other diseases.
>
>     Best wishes,
>
>     Steve
>     Steve Coulter, MD
>
>
>
>
>
>   Howard,
>
>   I am not advocating an inhumane approach. This is not what it is about
> at all. I am saying that, for me, empowerment of the individual is the
> core means by which dependence can be broken long-term. And the absolute
> core of this approach is to adopt the position “I am 100% responsible
> for everything that happens to me.” It takes time, often a lot of time,
> and a lot of work is needed before someone can take this position. If a
> therapist starts from the position that addiction is the result of
> societal conditioning, I think it greatly weakens the process. That’s my
> opinion.
>
>   Working with people, some with addiction issues, others with different
> issues, it’s clear to me that treating addiction does have specific
> angles to it that make it distinct from other conditions. Again and
> again in addicts I do see this absolutely resolute desire not to
> self-examine, not to look at their behaviour. A lot of addicts are
> fucking great people, frankly, imo. But this issue is present, this
> incredible capacity to avoid. When treatment starts to go more down the
> pc road, I think you also have to check in that you’re not simply
> patronizing the whole “poor baby” routine. It is a very easy thing to be
> popular with addicts, the easiest thing in the world, actually. You just
> adopt a position that enables them to continue avoiding. It is easy to
> take a humane approach. What’s tougher is to stand up and say it like it
> is.
>
>   Nick

In a way I wouldn’t like to do to others what I would not want to be done
to me,
if I were in the same position.

Sara

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: March 29, 2006 at 2:28:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What’s up with the internet??? Or are people just feeling repetitive??? Lol
Alan I have to say that coming off Methadone using Ibogaine was NOT hell in the least. Compared to regular detox. And with methadone, it doesn’t seem to matter how small the dose when you come off, it’s still a bitch. Not with ibogaine. Hallelooooyah bless th’ ‘Boga!!!!!!! (I have also thought that using Ibogaine to come off an IV habit would be easier than methadone, or other stuff that is absorbed thru the stomach lining instead of blood stream? )
Kirk J
From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] junkies and self esteem and meth doses
Date: March 29, 2006 at 12:09:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:38:01 -0500

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix

That is quite a mix! Do you even feel the oxycontins? I would guess not since you report doing 15-25 a day.
I have found that Methadone blocks any euphoria or other desired actions from opiates. Honestly, if you double dose and are a dose short you would probably feel the same if you take the oxys or not.
I think that is your psychological obsession to ‘need’ those 15-25 oxys on a day without your Methadone. Physically you should not feel withdrawals if you go a day without dosing. I say that because Methadone is such a long acting substance.
I always think I feel like shit if I miss a day and don’t have my 115 mg of Methadone but it is psychological and not physical.
Peace out, Callie

Find flowers, candy and directions to a romantic restaurant with Windows Live Local /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: March 29, 2006 at 9:30:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi..Alan here. I’m a methadone patient, and have also done a bit of research on it as well. Methadone doesn’t start to completely block opiates until you get up to around 50 milligrams a day. I know this from experience. Be careful with those oxy’s, though–you know that only the name-brand ones work, right? The generic ones have naltrexone mixed in with them–or so I’ve heard–and if this is true, and you shot one, it would of course put you into immediate withdrawal. Personally, as an opiate high, I don’t understand why so many people like oxycontins…I mean, sure, I’ve done them–but they’re just as expensive as heroin, if not more, and not nearly as strong…plus, they last a very short time.

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: March 29, 2006 at 12:34:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Ann—Thanks.

From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:51:50 -0500

I like this post very much (for what that’s worth). Partly because you support a lot of my beliefs and biases
on this whole subject. I want to learn and understand as much as I can. It is obvious to me that you have
thought about this in a logical way and have not left out the psychological/physiological parts. Please keep
on contributing.

Ann
think@francomm.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Alan Hehe
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix

From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: March 29, 2006 at 11:51:50 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ann
think@francomm.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Alan Hehe
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix

From: brenda brewer <shakti@photon.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Preston OT (Music)
Date: March 29, 2006 at 12:19:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No regrets, sweetie! I’ll let you know when I’m in NYC. Until then, you can hear some Italy remixes (DATURA, Space Noah) at myspace.com/sweetfeetmusic Our website is not done yet because our webmistress was just competing for a shoot with Vanity Fair – oh, what problems to have!

But where my real heart lies concerning music is my mid-tempo organic house with full on lyrics – coming soon 🙂

Love ya,

brenda

On 3/28/06 10:02 PM, “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

> Re: [Ibogaine] To Callie>Guess what? We got a record deal via Sleaze Sisters
> in London! Promos coming out next month. Being released on Universal
> Records.<
>
> I’ve regretted not hooking up for coffee/whathaveyou when you wrote me Brenda
> (but hopefully you’ll understand that I wasn’t in exactly a decent state for
> meeting new people at that point), but I’m hoping too that you’ll let us know
> when this promo is being released and that we’ll get to have a listen.
> Peace, love and lotsof respect.
>

From: marko <marko@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] bright future…
Date: March 29, 2006 at 9:03:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

… for Big Brother…

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE320060327033840&Page=3&Title=Features+%2D+Health+%26+Science&Topic=166&

Marko

… — … … — … … — …

BEIJING: Chinese scientists have invented a device that can detect a drug user simply from the way his pupils react to certain rays.

The technology, developed by scientists in South-western Yunnan province, bordering the ill-famed ‘golden triangle’, has proved successful in six pilot projects in local villages, and have passed the assessment of the ministry of public security, the state media reported on Monday.

In the tests, 891 cannabis smokers were mixed with 826 non-drug takers. The device was able to catch 93.94 per cent of the addicts if they smoked the drug the day before the test, and 88.52 per cent of them if they did it six days before.

No non-drug takers were mistaken for smoking the drug in the tests, scientists with the department of science and technology said.

For addicts to opium or its related drugs, lights of certain wavelength and intensity make their pupils expand and contract, they said, adding that the new device can find out “how much a person is addicted to drugs.”

The technology is obviously more advanced than similar detection techniques applied by police across the country, and it will be a good help if promoted nationwide, the scientists said.

From: tink <tinkerbell.sarah@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] way ot: Bush and Cheney in drag
Date: March 29, 2006 at 10:00:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just thought i’d send you all a bit of a giggle..
love tink

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: March 29, 2006 at 9:38:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:43 EST

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix

From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 9:46:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here’s my call on this. To use the term junky is like any other slur. If you are a junky it is OK to use the term amongst other junkies. Same as a lot of racial slurs among those races. Personaly I think the big issue here is low self esteme and what is the best way to work on it on a personal level. I would think it depends on the person and how they were raised. I know this is a big issue for me and a lot of other addicts I know. Self realazation is a bitch. I’m working on it. Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:38:55 +0100
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 29 March 2006 06:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
and methadone

>Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on
yourself and can
>draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so
than some
>of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.<

Calling someone a “fucking junky” (have you ever been a “fucking
junkie”
Nick? And why are you talking about “you” again? How do you know what
it
does for other people, to be called a “fucking junkie” anyway?) is
just
plain meanspirited, rude, not to mention prejudiced and completely
unconstructive, and to top it off, perpetuates the prohibitionist
mind-set
that all junkies are scum and not as human as non-users and junkies,
and
therefore don’t deserve love, compassion and understanding. And it’s
pathetic.

>I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of
how
>society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present
and
>heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it
for a
>while.<

You have a point Nick, in that I too feel that much heroin use is due
to
some self-esteem issues in SOME folk. But I’m completely at a loss as
to
your last sentence, about how those who take full responsibility
for their
life don’t get to be called a “junkie,” as it appears to me that you
feel
all heroin users are “fucking junkies” anyway Nick.

Hey Preston,

“No one who takes full responsibility for their life gets to be called a
junkie, regardless of their drug-using history” – means exactly what it says
on the tin to me. I stand by that statement as it’s my experience this is
so.

As to being prejudiced against addicts, I’m not, except when they’re being a
real pain in the arse in the group room, and even then I’m just complaining,
as I do about other people without addiction issues, and other people do
about me when I’m being a pain. Frankly, I don’t even label people as
“addicts” in a therapy situation, they’re just more participants. This has
nothing to do with prejudice, it’s about the reality of taking people who
want to move away from addiction to that space. I’m putting out my opinion,
and you can read into it what you like, create from it what you like, read
into it whatever you like, rearrange bits and manipulate from it whatever
you like. Or you can accept it as my truth.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=
[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=
[/

From: “Alan Hehe” <a.h.veil68@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 9:03:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:25:18 -0500
>>Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on yourself
>>and can draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far
>>more so than some of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these
>>guys.<
>
>Calling someone a “fucking junky” (have you ever been a “fucking
>junkie” Nick? And why are you talking about “you” again? How do you
>know what it does for other people, to be called a “fucking junkie”
>anyway?) is just plain meanspirited, rude, not to mention prejudiced
>and completely unconstructive, and to top it off, perpetuates the
>prohibitionist mind-set that all junkies are scum and not as human
>as non-users and junkies, and therefore don’t deserve love,
>compassion and understanding. And it’s pathetic.
>
>>I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of
>>how society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already
>>present and heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to
>>anaesthetize it for a while.<
>
>You have a point Nick, in that I too feel that much heroin use is
>due to some self-esteem issues in SOME folk. But I’m completely at a
>loss as to your last sentence, about how those who take full
>responsibility for their life don’t get to be called a “junkie,” as
>it appears to me that you feel all heroin users are “fucking
>junkies” anyway Nick.
>
>
>—–
>”If God dropped acid, would he see people?”  ~Steven Wright
>
>Peace and love.
>Preston
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor Underground
>Editor Under the Influence
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:57 AM
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hi Howard,
>
>Personally, I still feel that it’s a bit of a fantasy to suggest
>that changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence
>will have a significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has
>been using a narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a
>period of years, then it’s pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks
>of their psyche will have been hard-wired to respond to many daily
>stimuli simply by using drugs. It’s reptilian brain stuff and it
>takes a lot of will power to overcome, a lot of awareness. It can go
>on for years, way after recovery, as a lot of people will testify.
>Changing the way we refer to “addicts” sounds nice and takes away
>some of the patient/doctor bullshit but stigmatizing language does
>also have its uses. Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your
>awareness on yourself and can draw someone into deeper levels of
>self-examination, far more so than some of the touchy-feely pc terms
>put out by these guys.
>
>I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of
>how society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already
>present and heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to
>anaesthetize it for a while. In actuality, the adoption of the
>posture of having low self-esteem is, like the drug, merely another
>protection. And the stigmatization can always be removed. No one who
>takes full responsibility for their life gets to be called a junkie,
>regardless of their drug-using history.
>
>Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
>Sent: 27 March 2006 18:30
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
>and methadone
>
>There have seen some posts to lists that I thought interesting to
>cross post with the permission of the author.  Here is one from
>Herman Joseph who worked on early methadone research with Dole and
>Nyswander.
>
>Howard
>
>
>
>Subj: Re: [namaadvocate] Vancouver
>Date: Monday, March 27, 2006 12:49:51 AM
>From: urherman@earthlink.net
>To: namaadvocate@yahoogroups.com
>
>I met the wonderful insightful Bill Nelles  at the last harm
>reduction
>conference in Belfast as well as others including the Dutch harm
>reduction
>people who are responsible for this vocabulary and they are
>stubborn. Only
>the patients can confront them being identified as patients
>—However,
>they will tell you that 75% of the patients in Holland accept the
>substitution concept–in my opinion  because that is what they have
>been
>told either overtly or covertly and by professional attitudes. While
>Holland has good accessibility to programs and has pioneered the use
>of
>methadone buses and needle exchange they have a distorted
>understanding of
>what methadone really does and initially they have been a low dose
>country
>never prescribing above 80 mg/dy with many patients receiving sub
>therapeutic doses of 40 and below –In recent  years this has
>changed
>somewhat but the old concepts remain: patients now receive higher
>doses
>but substitution is the word and methadone user/client.  The harm
>reduction
>language and English slang expressions have really contributed to
>the
>stigmatization of the medication, the treatment and the patients.
>Dr. Dole
>is on our side-he realizes the full power of language to induce
>stigma.
>Stigmatizing language is not semantics, it reduces ones status. Dole
>and
>Nyswander never used the words substitution and user–They and I
>feel that
>patients should be uplifted with the vocabulary to express what
>methadone
>and now buprenorphine are -long acting agonist medications to treat
>the
>physiological impairments of opioid addiction.  Medication and
>patients
>-not substitution and user/ clients
>Lastly and this is my old refrain –it is the patients who must
>define how
>they and their treatment are to be regarded –not the nurses, not
>the
>social workers, not the doctors, not the world Health Organization,
>not the
>researchers, not the sociologists, not the psychologists, not the
>harm
>reduction workers. not the administrators.  The quality of patient
>lives is
>at stake with the stigma issue and it must be resolved. Lastly the
>professionals can always earn a living–the stigmatized patients may
>not.
>I will be at both the AATOD and Harm Reduction conferences
>Herman
>
>
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 7:38:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on
yourself and can
draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so
than some
of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.<

Calling someone a “fucking junky” (have you ever been a “fucking junkie”
Nick? And why are you talking about “you” again? How do you know what it
does for other people, to be called a “fucking junkie” anyway?) is just
plain meanspirited, rude, not to mention prejudiced and completely
unconstructive, and to top it off, perpetuates the prohibitionist
mind-set
that all junkies are scum and not as human as non-users and junkies, and
therefore don’t deserve love, compassion and understanding. And it’s
pathetic.

You have a point Nick, in that I too feel that much heroin use is due to
some self-esteem issues in SOME folk. But I’m completely at a loss as to
your last sentence, about how those who take full responsibility
for their
life don’t get to be called a “junkie,” as it appears to me that you feel
all heroin users are “fucking junkies” anyway Nick.

Hey Preston,

Nick

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 12:25:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on yourself and can draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so than some of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.<

Calling someone a “fucking junky” (have you ever been a “fucking junkie” Nick? And why are you talking about “you” again? How do you know what it does for other people, to be called a “fucking junkie” anyway?) is just plain meanspirited, rude, not to mention prejudiced and completely unconstructive, and to top it off, perpetuates the prohibitionist mind-set that all junkies are scum and not as human as non-users and junkies, and therefore don’t deserve love, compassion and understanding. And it’s pathetic.

You have a point Nick, in that I too feel that much heroin use is due to some self-esteem issues in SOME folk. But I’m completely at a loss as to your last sentence, about how those who take full responsibility for their life don’t get to be called a “junkie,” as it appears to me that you feel all heroin users are “fucking junkies” anyway Nick.

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Hi Howard,

Personally, I still feel that it’s a bit of a fantasy to suggest that changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence will have a significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has been using a narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a period of years, then it’s pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks of their psyche will have been hard-wired to respond to many daily stimuli simply by using drugs. It’s reptilian brain stuff and it takes a lot of will power to overcome, a lot of awareness. It can go on for years, way after recovery, as a lot of people will testify. Changing the way we refer to “addicts” sounds nice and takes away some of the patient/doctor bullshit but stigmatizing language does also have its uses. Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on yourself and can draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so than some of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.

I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of how society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present and heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it for a while. In actuality, the adoption of the posture of having low self-esteem is, like the drug, merely another protection. And the stigmatization can always be removed. No one who takes full responsibility for their life gets to be called a junkie, regardless of their drug-using history.

Nick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 27 March 2006 18:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Howard

Subj: Re: [namaadvocate] Vancouver
Date: Monday, March 27, 2006 12:49:51 AM
From: urherman@earthlink.net
To: namaadvocate@yahoogroups.com

I met the wonderful insightful Bill Nelles at the last harm reduction
conference in Belfast as well as others including the Dutch harm reduction
people who are responsible for this vocabulary and they are stubborn. Only
the patients can confront them being identified as patients —However,
they will tell you that 75% of the patients in Holland accept the
substitution concept–in my opinion because that is what they have been
told either overtly or covertly and by professional attitudes. While
Holland has good accessibility to programs and has pioneered the use of
methadone buses and needle exchange they have a distorted understanding of
what methadone really does and initially they have been a low dose country
never prescribing above 80 mg/dy with many patients receiving sub
therapeutic doses of 40 and below –In recent years this has changed
somewhat but the old concepts remain: patients now receive higher doses
but substitution is the word and methadone user/client. The harm reduction
language and English slang expressions have really contributed to the
stigmatization of the medication, the treatment and the patients. Dr. Dole
is on our side-he realizes the full power of language to induce stigma.
Stigmatizing language is not semantics, it reduces ones status. Dole and
Nyswander never used the words substitution and user–They and I feel that
patients should be uplifted with the vocabulary to express what methadone
and now buprenorphine are -long acting agonist medications to treat the
physiological impairments of opioid addiction. Medication and patients
-not substitution and user/ clients
Lastly and this is my old refrain –it is the patients who must define how
they and their treatment are to be regarded –not the nurses, not the
social workers, not the doctors, not the world Health Organization, not the
researchers, not the sociologists, not the psychologists, not the harm
reduction workers. not the administrators. The quality of patient lives is
at stake with the stigma issue and it must be resolved. Lastly the
professionals can always earn a living–the stigmatized patients may not.
I will be at both the AATOD and Harm Reduction conferences
Herman

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Callie
Date: March 29, 2006 at 1:02:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Guess what? We got a record deal via Sleaze Sisters in London! Promos coming out next month. Being released on Universal Records.<

I’ve regretted not hooking up for coffee/whathaveyou when you wrote me Brenda (but hopefully you’ll understand that I wasn’t in exactly a decent state for meeting new people at that point), but I’m hoping too that you’ll let us know when this promo is being released and that we’ll get to have a listen.
Peace, love and lotsof respect.
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

Peace and love.
Preston
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor Underground
Editor Under the Influence
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: brenda brewer
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Callie

Callie,

If you could entertain this thought for a moment: the part of you that is addicted is only one small part and does not have to run your life with all the physical and emotional side effects that comes with it. Ill speak to this more specifically in a moment.

When I took my final drink, I was on my 3rd drink. All of a sudden I had a transcendental experience where I looked at my hand and felt I was looking at someone else holding the drink (very common in the process of spiritual inquiry). I recognized that I was the one watching but it was not *really* I who was doing the drinking not the real me anyway. It was my real first separation of myself and my addictive voice or addicted self (false self).

Now, at the secular recovery meetings I attend we talk about that addictive voice and the many ways it shows up and we speak from our truer selves, the part of us not addicted it is in there! In this way, we make the true part stronger, or bring it back to the forefront, and the addicted part weaker and it fades from our consciousness so we no longer identify with it. It may always be there, locked away, may try to re-emerge in times of stress, but we learn how to deal when and if it does.

Not knowing this kept me away from recovery for years and I hated the word recovery! But, I am recovering and I will and I dont have to go to AA! Yee ha! And Ibogaine helps unravel the underlying causes so getting to therapy/aftercare asap is critical but not all is lost if one doesnt as long as your alive theres hope 🙂

Oh. The financial part yes, I was a mess. I was so desperate that I took one of those payday loans and paid like 400% interest when I returned. It was SO worth it though! But, I was ready to quit my music career last October that how the alcohol had screwed up my brain. Guess what? We got a record deal via Sleaze Sisters in London! Promos coming out next month. Being released on Universal Records.

I almost lost all of that.

Love ya,

brenda

On 3/28/06 6:32 AM, “CallieMimosa@aol.com” <CallieMimosa@aol.com> wrote:

> Brenda, I am so happy for you.The information you offer is so very important
> to others who have not had the Ibogaine experience. Deciding to interrupt
> addictive behavior is a HUGE step. It is financially a big step too, so to go
> into the experience without a complete plan is a mistake. BUT, it is typical
> addict/alcoholic behavior to not have a plan for the months after.
> Being an addict I can say that desiring to get rid of addiction is probably
> number one on my ‘wish list’. If I am honest though I will acknowledge that I
> can never be entirely rid of addiction. It is a part of who I am whether I
> like it or not.
> It is wonderful that you say you feel ‘part of it all’. I know the feeling
> of alienating myself and feeling I am different from everyone. I usually blame
> that on other people thinking they are better than me but really it is I who
> feels I am not as good as everyone else.
> You keep on keeping on Brenda! Share your accomplishments and mistakes. To
> hear those things help me.
> toodles, Callie
>

—
Shakti
Vocalist/Lyricist
House, Soul, Background vocals
650-906-2543

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] US Embassy recommends coca tea…
Date: March 29, 2006 at 3:04:08 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=51732
Published: Sunday, March 26, 2006
Bylined to: Niko Kyriakou
US embassy in Bolivia recommends coca tea to help alleviate altitude sickness
The (Caracas) Daily Journal (Niko Kyriakou): The war against coca … the plant used to make cocaine … has become a defining issue for U.S. policy in South America, yet many people outside South America know little about the plant the US. is fighting against.
In a meeting with newly elected Bolivian President Evo Morales earlier this month, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice sought renewed cooperation between the two countries to counter drug trafficking, but it was the coca leaf that captured headlines.
Morales, a former coca farmer who calls himself pro-coca but anti-cocaine, ended his half-hour meeting with Rice by giving her a guitar decorated with real coca leaves sealed under lacquer.
While the gesture bears a mark of humor, in the context of Morales’ wider stance on coca, the message seems designed to point out the importance of the plant to South American culture, and not — as it is often perceived in the United States — to illicit markets.
Morales still serves as head of the coca farmers’ union that lifted him to power. He has increased the allowed level of coca cultivation to about 1,600 square meters per family since taking office last December. At his inaugural dinner, Morales served coca wine, coca cake, and coca cookies.
In Bolivia’s Andean neighbor Peru, presidential candidate and retired Lt. Col. Ollanta Humala announced in mid-March that if the left-wing Humala wins Peru’s presidency in April, he plans to serve poor children bread made from flour containing five percent coca.
While coca gains top-level approval in various parts of Latin America, in the US coca remains taboo. If a US politician were to suggest giving children coca it would be seen not just as political suicide, but as a criminal act.
And that difference in perspective reflects a vast gap between US and South American experience of a substance with a known history stretching back long before Christopher Columbus’s landfall, times when the Incas controlled much of the continent.
For thousands of years, coca has been a rich source of nutrients for poor South Americans.
snip-

Read Complete Article at Above URL

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 2:19:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 28 March 2006 20:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
and methadone

In a message dated 3/28/06 12:57:21 PM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma
and methadone

In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Hi Howard,

Personally, I still feel that itâs a bit of a fantasy to suggest that
changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence will have
a significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has been using a
narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a period of years, then
itâs pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks of their psyche will
have been hard-wired to respond to many daily stimuli simply by using
drugs. Itâs reptilian brain stuff and it takes a lot of will power to
overcome, a lot of awareness. It can go on for years, way after
recovery, as a lot of people will testify. Changing the way we refer to
âaddictsâ sounds nice and takes away some of the patient/doctor
bullshit but stigmatizing language does also have its uses. Being called
âa fucking junkieâ focuses your awareness on yourself and can draw
someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so than some of
the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.

I donât think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of how
society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present and
heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it for a
while. In actuality, the adoption of the posture of having low
self-esteem is, like the drug, merely another protection. And the
stigmatization can always be removed. No one who takes full
responsibility for their life gets to be called a junkie, regardless of
their drug-using history.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people
are treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act
and respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in
both long and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as
other environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but,
having another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it
easier to gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing
moderating or stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to
change or moderate in your life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

I totally agree. Negative feedback or the use of stigmatizing language
does not serve all situations well, and for many would be completely
counter-productive. But it is a very useful tool at times, and I think
that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc
terminology only the user would suffer. Finally, you are responsible for
your self-esteem, it has nothing to do with what the other is saying to
you. Yes, we need compassion and help along the way but in the end how
we view ourselves is down to us. For me, to ascribe such a level of
potential benefit to the use of more gentle language, as Herman does, is
quite counter-productive to treating dependence, and furthermore
irresponsible.

Nick

Hi Nick,

How we view ourselves is ultimately “down to us,” however we are all the
products of our environments in part. If we were not defined negatively
we would not perceive ourselves as negative. I would opt for your
recognition that it is damaging to many and have to weight that heavily
than it being rather beneficial to a few and I would add, very few. So
I guess we will just have to disagree on whether treating people kindly
and with respect precipitates a better return than treating them cruelly
and with disrespect. On the issue “that if the treatment of chemical
dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would
suffer” I have to disagree. At the time I passed Herman Joseph’s post
to this list I had, with permission, also provided a post from the
addict-L list to the methadone list. Maybe that would add useful
discussion here and so I will present it as well. See below.

Howard

To the List:

But really, being ambivalent about treatment is not unique to
addiction. Who hasn’t put off getting an annual physical? It’s
common to dread surgery, mammograms, prostate evaluations. Cancer
patients become almost phobic about receiving courses of cancer
chemotherapy. Schizophrenics often can’t stand taking their
medications because of the way the agents make them feel. Even blood
pressure medication compliance is poor. Most diabetics do a terrible
job with giving themselves insulin shots. And diet and exercise
instructions are more typically ignored than adopted.

For all conditions other than addiction, such reluctance and
half-hearted compliance is managed primarily by encouragment,
patience, and empathy. Only with addiction is this same phenomenon
pathologized and turned into a blame game. Approaching an addict’s
reluctance the same way a clinician would approach a sufferer of any
other disease becomes labelled as “co-dependent” or “enabling.”

That’s all hogwash. Having any disease sucks. Having to have
treatment for any disease sucks. Being reluctant and ambivalent about
receiving treatment for any disease is simply normal human behavior,
not “addict behavior.” People with addictions are entitled to the
same level of respect, professionalism, tolerance, and patience as
those who suffer other diseases.

Best wishes,

Steve
Steve Coulter, MD

Howard,

I am not advocating an inhumane approach. This is not what it is about
at all. I am saying that, for me, empowerment of the individual is the
core means by which dependence can be broken long-term. And the absolute
core of this approach is to adopt the position “I am 100% responsible
for everything that happens to me.” It takes time, often a lot of time,
and a lot of work is needed before someone can take this position. If a
therapist starts from the position that addiction is the result of
societal conditioning, I think it greatly weakens the process. That’s my
opinion.

Working with people, some with addiction issues, others with different
issues, it’s clear to me that treating addiction does have specific
angles to it that make it distinct from other conditions. Again and
again in addicts I do see this absolutely resolute desire not to
self-examine, not to look at their behaviour. A lot of addicts are
fucking great people, frankly, imo. But this issue is present, this
incredible capacity to avoid. When treatment starts to go more down the
pc road, I think you also have to check in that you’re not simply
patronizing the whole “poor baby” routine. It is a very easy thing to be
popular with addicts, the easiest thing in the world, actually. You just
adopt a position that enables them to continue avoiding. It is easy to
take a humane approach. What’s tougher is to stand up and say it like it
is.

Nick

In a way I wouldn’t like to do to others what I would not want to be done
to me,
if I were in the same position.

Sara

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 29, 2006 at 1:58:14 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/28/06 12:57:21 PM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Hi Howard,

Nick

Hi Nick,

I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people are treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act and respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in both long and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as other environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but, having another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it easier to gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing moderating or stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to change or moderate in your life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

I totally agree. Negative feedback or the use of stigmatizing language does not serve all situations well, and for many would be completely counter-productive. But it is a very useful tool at times, and I think that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would suffer. Finally, you are responsible for your self-esteem, it has nothing to do with what the other is saying to you. Yes, we need compassion and help along the way but in the end how we view ourselves is down to us. For me, to ascribe such a level of potential benefit to the use of more gentle language, as Herman does, is quite counter-productive to treating dependence, and furthermore irresponsible.

Nick

Hi Nick,

How we view ourselves is ultimately “down to us,” however we are all the products of our environments in part. If we were not defined negatively we would not perceive ourselves as negative. I would opt for your recognition that it is damaging to many and have to weight that heavily than it being rather beneficial to a few and I would add, very few. So I guess we will just have to disagree on whether treating people kindly and with respect precipitates a better return than treating them cruelly and with disrespect. On the issue “that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would suffer” I have to disagree. At the time I passed Herman Joseph’s post to this list I had, with permission, also provided a post from the addict-L list to the methadone list. Maybe that would add useful discussion here and so I will present it as well. See below.

Howard

To the List:

But really, being ambivalent about treatment is not unique to addiction. Who hasn’t put off getting an annual physical? It’s common to dread surgery, mammograms, prostate evaluations. Cancer patients become almost phobic about receiving courses of cancer chemotherapy. Schizophrenics often can’t stand taking their medications because of the way the agents make them feel. Even blood pressure medication compliance is poor. Most diabetics do a terrible job with giving themselves insulin shots. And diet and exercise instructions are more typically ignored than adopted.

For all conditions other than addiction, such reluctance and half-hearted compliance is managed primarily by encouragment, patience, and empathy. Only with addiction is this same phenomenon pathologized and turned into a blame game. Approaching an addict’s reluctance the same way a clinician would approach a sufferer of any other disease becomes labelled as “co-dependent” or “enabling.”

That’s all hogwash. Having any disease sucks. Having to have treatment for any disease sucks. Being reluctant and ambivalent about receiving treatment for any disease is simply normal human behavior, not “addict behavior.” People with addictions are entitled to the same level of respect, professionalism, tolerance, and patience as those who suffer other diseases.

Best wishes,

Steve
Steve Coulter, MD

Howard,

I am not advocating an inhumane approach. This is not what it is about at all. I am saying that, for me, empowerment of the individual is the core means by which dependence can be broken long-term. And the absolute core of this approach is to adopt the position “I am 100% responsible for everything that happens to me.” It takes time, often a lot of time, and a lot of work is needed before someone can take this position. If a therapist starts from the position that addiction is the result of societal conditioning, I think it greatly weakens the process. That’s my opinion.

Working with people, some with addiction issues, others with different issues, it’s clear to me that treating addiction does have specific angles to it that make it distinct from other conditions. Again and again in addicts I do see this absolutely resolute desire not to self-examine, not to look at their behaviour. A lot of addicts are fucking great people, frankly, imo. But this issue is present, this incredible capacity to avoid. When treatment starts to go more down the pc road, I think you also have to check in that you’re not simply patronizing the whole “poor baby” routine. It is a very easy thing to be popular with addicts, the easiest thing in the world, actually. You just adopt a position that enables them to continue avoiding. It is easy to take a humane approach. What’s tougher is to stand up and say it like it is.

Nick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 28, 2006 at 7:32:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m the one in agreement with you Krista.

Howard

In a message dated 3/28/06 5:06:48 PM, krista.vaughan@gmail.com writes:

I’m sure that both of you can phrase things better than I can, but in
my experience and that of being around people who are “junkies” or
“crackheads” the low level of self esteem is horrible and usually one
of the major problems that pushes people over the edge back into
relapse.

People have loads of problems from all over, abuse, dual diagnosis,
you name it, but what does not help at all are the years or decades of
abuse that the medical establishment and police state has heaped on to
of all that, until people don’t even consider themselves human
anymore, because they’ve been told for so long they’re not.

Being stigmatized is a huge problem, it’s not about being politically
correct, how about treating someone like a human being! I don’t think
anybody has the right to get self righteous at drug addicts, anymore
then someone getting self righteous at a diabetic with their insulin
or someone who needs heart medication. If drug addiction is a disease,
then why are those who suffer from this disease treated so much worse
then everybody else? Is it ok to do that?

On 3/28/06, HSLotsof@aol.com <HSLotsof@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 3/28/06 12:57:21 PM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
> From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
> Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and
> methadone
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
> Hi Howard,
>
> Personally, I still feel that it’s a bit of a fantasy to suggest that
> changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence will have a
> significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has been using a
> narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a period of years, then it’s
> pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks of their psyche will have been
> hard-wired to respond to many daily stimuli simply by using drugs. It’s
> reptilian brain stuff and it takes a lot of will power to overcome, a lot of
> awareness. It can go on for years, way after recovery, as a lot of people
> will testify. Changing the way we refer to “addicts” sounds nice and takes
> away some of the patient/doctor bullshit but stigmatizing language does also
> have its uses. Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on
> yourself and can draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far
> more so than some of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.
>
> I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of how
> society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present and
> heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it for a
> while. In actuality, the adoption of the posture of having low self-esteem
> is, like the drug, merely another protection. And the stigmatization can
> always be removed. No one who takes full responsibility for their life gets
> to be called a junkie, regardless of their drug-using history.
>
> Nick
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people are
> treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act and
> respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in both long
> and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as other
> environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but, having
> another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it easier to
> gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing moderating or
> stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to change or moderate
> in your life.
>
> Howard

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Way OT…but beautiful!Check out Perpetual Ocean ~ Peter Miller
Date: March 28, 2006 at 7:29:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Perpetual Ocean ~ Peter Miller

These are absolutely beautiful! Hope you enjoy!
Callie

From: tink <tinkerbell.sarah@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Callie
Date: March 28, 2006 at 6:01:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s so good to hear you that positive, Brenda!! Keep up the good
work. My life is changing very quickly, but I think in a very
positive direction, for once, as well. I’m sending you tons of love-
tink

On 3/28/06, brenda brewer <shakti@photon.net> wrote:
Callie,

My decision to do Ibogaine saved my life in many ways – my health, my
relationships, my career – everything. My relapse was a very important
learning experience for me that helped my process along.

My follow through with aftercare is what is rounding out the whole
experience and make each part work – I think anyone doing Ibogaine for
addiction interruption without an aftercare plan is wasting their time.

I’m beginning the experience of thriving now. I’m sitting next to a
sizzling fireplace in a seaside resort home in Monterey, CA wind howling
outside. I’m vacationing here with my boyfriend’s family sipping on a cup
of chamomile tea and I feel a part of it all.

And I’m going for everything I have ever dreamed of – I almost gave up
those dreams before Ibogaine.

brenda

From: tink <tinkerbell.sarah@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Solar Eclipse
Date: March 28, 2006 at 5:57:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

———- Forwarded message ———-
From: SpaceWeather. com <swlist@spaceweather.com>
Date: Mar 28, 2006 1:15 AM
Subject: Solar Eclipse
To: “SpaceWeather. com” <swlist@spaceweather.com>

Space Weather News for March 28, 2006
http://spaceweather.com

Parts of Brazil, Africa, Turkey, central Asia and Mongolia: These are
places where people can see a total eclipse of the sun on Wednesday,
March 29th. A partial eclipse will be visible over a much wider area,
including all of Europe. Astronauts onboard the International Space
Station will have the rarest view of all. The station is due to pass
over Turkey while the eclipse is in progress there, giving astronauts
a magnificent view—not of the sun, but of the moon’s cool shadow.

Visit spaceweather.com for full coverage, including an animated
eclipse map, links to live webcasts, and a simulated view from the
International Space Station.

You are currently subscribed to spaceweather as: tinkerbell.sarah@gmail.com.

To unsubscribe click here:
http://www.spaceweather2.com/u?id=665828G&n=T&l=spaceweather
or send a blank email to leave-spaceweather-665828G@www.spaceweather2.com

From: “Krista Vaughan” <krista.vaughan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 28, 2006 at 5:04:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On 3/28/06, HSLotsof@aol.com <HSLotsof@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 3/28/06 12:57:21 PM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and
methadone

In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Hi Howard,

Personally, I still feel that it’s a bit of a fantasy to suggest that
changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence will have a
significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has been using a
narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a period of years, then it’s
pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks of their psyche will have been
hard-wired to respond to many daily stimuli simply by using drugs. It’s
reptilian brain stuff and it takes a lot of will power to overcome, a lot of
awareness. It can go on for years, way after recovery, as a lot of people
will testify. Changing the way we refer to “addicts” sounds nice and takes
away some of the patient/doctor bullshit but stigmatizing language does also
have its uses. Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on
yourself and can draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far
more so than some of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.

I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of how
society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present and
heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it for a
while. In actuality, the adoption of the posture of having low self-esteem
is, like the drug, merely another protection. And the stigmatization can
always be removed. No one who takes full responsibility for their life gets
to be called a junkie, regardless of their drug-using history.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people are
treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act and
respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in both long
and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as other
environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but, having
another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it easier to
gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing moderating or
stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to change or moderate
in your life.

Howard

From: tink <tinkerbell.sarah@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What’s up wih Stanley?
Date: March 28, 2006 at 3:32:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s the one with Hane’s No Way Panties… LOLOLOLOLOL
Hi Everyone!!!
love tink

On 3/28/06, biscuitboy714@aol.com <biscuitboy714@aol.com> wrote:

News flash from Albany Med…………………. Severe morphine
shortage at Albany Med. Heroin going for a premeum price amogst Glick’s
untreated rat’s. I wonder how his research is going.
Randy
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: drugwar@mindvox.com; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 06:20:06 -0500
Subject: [Ibogaine] Study: High Times Not A Gateway Magazine To Harder
Readings

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46452

Study: High Times Not A Gateway Magazine To Harder Readings

gotta go to the URL above to read this.
GO Onion.

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

/]=———————————————————————
=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]

\]=———————————————————————
=[/

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: OT southern versus northern hemisphere…
Date: March 28, 2006 at 2:24:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

…

you know, I didn’t realize how far away you are from my computer Kirk!! You and your keyboard are a LLLLLOOOOONNNNGGGG way from Tennessee, USA!!!
I think Autumn is my favorite season here. Beautiful colors. What kind of trees do y’all have ‘down under’?
Callie

Um, we got big ones n small ones wif trunks n branches n leafs n stuff…….

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 28, 2006 at 2:16:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/28/06 12:57:21 PM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Hi Howard,

Nick

Hi Nick,

I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people are treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act and respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in both long and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as other environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but, having another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it easier to gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing moderating or stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to change or moderate in your life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

I totally agree. Negative feedback or the use of stigmatizing language does not serve all situations well, and for many would be completely counter-productive. But it is a very useful tool at times, and I think that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would suffer. Finally, you are responsible for your self-esteem, it has nothing to do with what the other is saying to you. Yes, we need compassion and help along the way but in the end how we view ourselves is down to us. For me, to ascribe such a level of potential benefit to the use of more gentle language, as Herman does, is quite counter-productive to treating dependence, and furthermore irresponsible.

Nick

Hi Nick,

How we view ourselves is ultimately “down to us,” however we are all the products of our environments in part. If we were not defined negatively we would not perceive ourselves as negative. I would opt for your recognition that it is damaging to many and have to weight that heavily than it being rather beneficial to a few and I would add, very few. So I guess we will just have to disagree on whether treating people kindly and with respect precipitates a better return than treating them cruelly and with disrespect. On the issue “that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would suffer” I have to disagree. At the time I passed Herman Joseph’s post to this list I had, with permission, also provided a post from the addict-L list to the methadone list. Maybe that would add useful discussion here and so I will present it as well. See below.

Howard

To the List:

But really, being ambivalent about treatment is not unique to addiction. Who hasn’t put off getting an annual physical? It’s common to dread surgery, mammograms, prostate evaluations. Cancer patients become almost phobic about receiving courses of cancer chemotherapy. Schizophrenics often can’t stand taking their medications because of the way the agents make them feel. Even blood pressure medication compliance is poor. Most diabetics do a terrible job with giving themselves insulin shots. And diet and exercise instructions are more typically ignored than adopted.

For all conditions other than addiction, such reluctance and half-hearted compliance is managed primarily by encouragment, patience, and empathy. Only with addiction is this same phenomenon pathologized and turned into a blame game. Approaching an addict’s reluctance the same way a clinician would approach a sufferer of any other disease becomes labelled as “co-dependent” or “enabling.”

That’s all hogwash. Having any disease sucks. Having to have treatment for any disease sucks. Being reluctant and ambivalent about receiving treatment for any disease is simply normal human behavior, not “addict behavior.” People with addictions are entitled to the same level of respect, professionalism, tolerance, and patience as those who suffer other diseases.

Best wishes,

Steve
Steve Coulter, MD

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT for Chi
Date: March 28, 2006 at 2:26:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s all good, panic not dear aussie one, was when your emails were coming
in twice….seems Jasen having a bit of trubble with it too, you got a Koala
bear stuck in the lines somewhere??
Heheh ;o)

Kirsty……huh???? im lost, wots the huh for??? (dont forget, me stoopid
australian)
—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Chi….. huh????

—–Original Message—–
From: cm [mailto:cm67@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Saturday, 25 March 2006 8:33 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

anything i wrote about the pharmaceutical companies was something id asked

sheep loving australian lad over coffee
last year and that was the answer he gave me : )
—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Kirk yells “I’M NOT OUTSPOKEN AND I REALLY WANTED TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT
THAT”.
..
After watching the rite of passage dvd and being a long term snarler at
Pharamaceuticals, a point was made that it’s not just the
pharmaceuticals,
it’s the SHAREHOLDERS, social stigma blah blah who won’t have a bar of
it,
so us born again iboganutz need to start our own pharmaceutical, own all
the
shares et voila!!
Yeh well, that’s from a fried brain, gimmee a break LOL
Koikywoiky going mad.

—–Original Message—–
From: cm [mailto:cm67@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Friday, 24 March 2006 11:52 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

to be affiliated with drug/herion addicts.
and furthermore, if im not wrong the nazis came up with methadone in the
1st

place for one of hitlers generals who was an opium addict so he could go
to
battle. they ended up giving it to their soldiers to get them addicted
and
wouldnt give them more (leave them hanging out) till they made it to the
next town they were to strike.
so if there was no one left on methadone, there would be no more little
hitler soldiers running around, how would the government keep such an
outspoken bunch of people quiet?????
—– Original Message —–
From: “František Hrdý” <fanyz@seznam.cz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

This forum is running so fast now, that I really can’t catch up reading
it

all. Most of posts seem to me either empty talk or people trying to
express their lives misery. Maybe I’m just lazy to read though. I like
humour and I like to say that life sucks just as everyone else does, but
are we not missing the main point here?

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything,
but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

First of all, I heard this hundred times, but it’s never enough for me,
since I was never addicted.
1. ARE YOU SURE IBOGAINE WORKS?
And I don’t want you to understand this question wrong. Can you try to
express what may be stated about Ibogaine with no doubt? (Please, do not
say ‘fuck yeah!’ or tell me, it’s extract of root of some African
plant –
I learned that already!)

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to
provide
Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

3. WHAT EXACTLY HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY?
What communication has been done with different governments, drug
centres,

hospitals, and rich people?
How far did it come in scientific researches?
Were there any courses done in public places, schools or churches?
What about posters and so?
I found endless sources on Internet, but what about TV shows?
Was Ibogaine ever mentioned in any mass-movie?
Can you estimate, how many people has already heard about Ibogaine and
how

many are positive about it?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even
idea
that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

There is .eu domain registration open now. (Did anyone of you try domain
Ibogaine.com or Ibogaine.info – what does this content have to do with
Ibogaine? Well, .com probably expires next year and .info at september.
There are no pages on .org, which is registered to NDA.) I would like to
register Ibogaine.eu and Detox.eu domains and make very general web
pages
with tons of links, explanations, statistics and so. What do you people
think about it, is there someone here interested in helping me?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African
lady
in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx
and publish it on Internet?

I’m pretty certain that I would get more replies if I needed some
personal

help. Well that’s cool too. You are nice people and love and personal
help

is sure most important. But I still believe that this fucked-up world
may
be made better by good people joining together and doing something big.
Please participate in improving in what all people agree is good – hope,
help, faith, freedom … any ideas?

With love and devotion

fanyz

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 28, 2006 at 12:33:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]  Sent: 28 March 2006 16:58 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Hi Howard,   Personally, I still feel that it’s a bit of a fantasy to suggest that changing the terminology used in treating chemical dependence will have a significant effect in changing behaviour. If someone has been using a narcotic analgesic like heroin or methadone for a period of years, then it’s pretty inevitable, imo, that large chunks of their psyche will have been hard-wired to respond to many daily stimuli simply by using drugs. It’s reptilian brain stuff and it takes a lot of will power to overcome, a lot of awareness. It can go on for years, way after recovery, as a lot of people will testify. Changing the way we refer to “addicts” sounds nice and takes away some of the patient/doctor bullshit but stigmatizing language does also have its uses. Being called “a fucking junkie” focuses your awareness on yourself and can draw someone into deeper levels of self-examination, far more so than some of the touchy-feely pc terms put out by these guys.   I don’t think that using heroin induces low self esteem because of how society regards users, rather the low self-esteem is already present and heroin is the learned way the psyche has found to anaesthetize it for a while. In actuality, the adoption of the posture of having low self-esteem is, like the drug, merely another protection. And the stigmatization can always be removed. No one who takes full responsibility for their life gets to be called a junkie, regardless of their drug-using history.   Nick
Hi Nick,  I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people are treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act and respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in both long and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as other environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but, having another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it easier to gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing moderating or stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to change or moderate in your life.  Howard

Hi Howard,

I totally agree. Negative feedback or the use of stigmatizing language does not serve all situations well, and for many would be completely counter-productive. But it is a very useful tool at times, and I think that if the treatment of chemical dependence became embroiled in pc terminology only the user would suffer. Finally, you are responsible for your self-esteem, it has nothing to do with what the other is saying to you. Yes, we need compassion and help along the way but in the end how we view ourselves is down to us. For me, to ascribe such a level of potential benefit to the use of more gentle language, as Herman does, is quite counter-productive to treating dependence, and furthermore irresponsible.

Nick

From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ] (OT?) Re: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..
Date: March 28, 2006 at 10:19:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

SHHHHH your interupting the jazz 😮
😉

On 3/27/06, Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> wrote:
Lol who you callin a snob ya freak? (im seriously kidding here….)
Actually that was a line off the movie “the commitments” I couldn’t resist
throwing it in.,.. shoulda quoted it didn’t neva mind.
Im maybe one of the least snobby music lovers on the planet….i listen to
just about every genre of music there is. Bar a couple, I think you’d probly
guess what they are…. (“We got both kainds of music, Country AND Western”
Blues Brothers. In saying that I love Johnny Cash…)
Ok,
S’all gewd.
CK

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 11:47 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT?) Re: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..

to each their own. I spent a long time being a “music snob” but as noted
just one or two posts back, music is therapy, and while I might not
appreciate jazz so much, it’s Music still, and moves many in ways that
Kyuss/Queens of the Stone
Age/IronMaiden/Bauhaus/Cure/BasementJaxx/FreelanceHellraiser move me (btw,
if anyone has FH’s mashup of BasementJaxx/Clash, I’d LOVE to have the MP3,
so write me off list, please if so and can help- I can’t find it, not even
here in Manhattan- AND, if anyone down in Oz can find and burn me a copy of
Bady Doll’s first album, I’d be eternally grateful as NO ONE here as EVER
heard of them, and I LOVE their first album, having heard it in Amsterdam
but as noted cannot at all find it here).

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..

How funny, I’ve always looked at Jazz as a form of Musical Wanking……..
hmm

—–Original Message—–
From: Luke Christoffersen [mailto:luke.christoffersen@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 4:36 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

I wonder is there anything in that idea of Jazz creating effects
similar to cannibis. I painted my room while listening to Miles Davis
album Bitches Brew, really trippy, and I felt in an altered state. I
want to paint some pictures under the influence of Jazz 🙂

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

hi ‘Preston’, i went to your link and from what i read the germans
did invent it. i got my info, not a reliable source i know, from
the movie sid & nancy years ago.
when they are being dosed they get this big lecture about the
germans having made the shit and he didnt like seeing american kids
chugging it.
so i then asked someone more on the subject and the told me it did
come from the germans cos one of hitlers generals was an addict. im
pretty sure the person i asked all those years ago is now sleeping
upstairs. i’ll go and prod him later and find out.

The truth is more interesting. ReichsMarshall Goering was addicted to
opiates–and so squandered the military/ industrial complex the Nazis
had seized from the Jews, Czechs and others — equivalent to the
entire military/idustrial complex of the Soviet Union, which Goering
had Hitler put him in charge of — that the Nazis literally lost the
war while he was on the nod.

When he was put on trial at Nuremberg and the Allies cut off his
opiates, he lost a lot of weight, came to his senses and led the
defense of the Regime-members on the dock. Prosecutors said he was by
far the smartest of the defendents; but it was a little late, since
as head of the Luftwaffe he could have developed the jet 4 years
earlier and won the war. But he wasted his years in power plundering
Europe for art for his collection.

As for the Adolphine controversy, Preston, I think you will find that
it WAS first developed in Germany out of concern that their
battlefield supply of opiates might be blockaded, as it had been in
WW I. But Goering probably got good heroin up to the end, corpulent
from high living rather than methadone. I find the scenario of
Hitler’s quack doctor Morel being forced to substitute
methamphetamine for the cocaine in the cocktail of drugs he was
injected der Fuhrer with much more likely, since there was a sudden
deterioration in Hitler’s performance in 1943, when the cocaine
blockade really kicked in. I think those injections also may have
included belladonna.

But it was crystal meth, not methadone, that the Germans gave their
soldiers. That’s nothing– in some of those recent investigation of
the U.S. Air Force bombing the wrong wedding party, the fact once
again surfaced that they routinely put their pilots on ten milligrams
of speed “to improve performance” (i.e, bomb more wedding parties
because they’re seeing insects, snakes and rats… ).

Frankly, I’m a lot more concerned with the issue of AIDS patients
here in New York being forced on to methadone for their peripheral
neuropathy, because it’s so much more toxic than the medical
marijuana the whole system is set up to detect and penalize, and
because med-mar just WORKS so much better for neuropathy and phantom
pain.

This bizarre pro-opiate, anti-cannabis attitude perpetuates a Nazi
vendetta against cannabis that dates back to Eugenics Movement Judge
Emily Murphy of Alberta who led the campaign to criminalize weed in
Canada in 1923, predating Henry Anslinger, and who is cited by
Hitler in Mein Kampf as one of his inspirations. Of course Anslinger
teamed up with Joseph Goebbels in 1937 to pass identical legislation
against cannabis in August in the US., and September in the Third
Reich. And Anslinger had a plan promote German-American cooperation
thru a mass roundup of jazz musicians and fans who smoke pot. You
can check with Larry Sloman. I think it was 6,000 people on a Bureau
of Narcotics list. It was stopped only because they needed many of
these people to make war films like Casablanca in 1942. (Imagine them
barging onto the set and grabbing Sam the piano player in the middle
of the move!) Everyone knew the Nazis hated jazz, so they had had to
have an obligatory jazz scene in most war movies. The Nazis
considered to jazz to be a Jewish plot to promote sex between black
men and white women. And Anslinger believed that because syncopation
meant you could put in extra beats, jazz replicated pot’s time-
distorting effect, making jazz a form of AURAL cannabis vapor, or
hash smoke in sonic form.

Banning Cannabis everywhere was definitely part of Hitler’s plan of
World Conquest. So it’s highly ironic that his erstwhile supporters
such as Anslinger, who spent the war making movies claiming that all
the heroin was coming from Japan, went on to acheive just that result
in 1962 thru the U.N, an organization originally set up to defeat
Nazism. And Goebbel’s Drug Czar, Stringaris became the mentor of
Gabriel Nahas, whose faked experiments for the U.N. Narcotics Bureau
were later used to stop the decrim tide in the ’70’s

Dana/cnw

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From: brenda brewer <shakti@photon.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Callie
Date: March 28, 2006 at 11:41:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Callie,

If you could entertain this thought for a moment: the “part of you that is addicted” is only one small part and does not have to run your life with all the physical and emotional side effects that comes with it. I’ll speak to this more specifically in a moment.

When I took my final drink, I was on my 3rd drink. All of a sudden I had a transcendental experience where I looked at my hand and felt I was looking at someone else holding the drink (very common in the process of spiritual inquiry). I recognized that “I” was the one watching but it was not *really* I who was doing the drinking – not the real me anyway. It was my real first separation of myself and my addictive voice or addicted self (false self).

Now, at the secular recovery meetings I attend we talk about that addictive voice and the many ways it shows up – and we speak from our truer selves, the part of us not addicted – it is in there! In this way, we make the true part stronger, or bring it back to the forefront, and the addicted part weaker and it fades from our consciousness so we no longer identify with it. It may always be there, locked away, may try to re-emerge in times of stress, but we learn how to deal when and if it does.

Not knowing this kept me away from recovery for years – and I hated the word recovery! But, I am recovering and I will and I don’t have to go to AA! Yee ha! And Ibogaine helps unravel the underlying causes so getting to therapy/aftercare asap is critical but not all is lost if one doesn’t – as long as your alive there’s hope 🙂

Oh. The financial part – yes, I was a mess. I was so desperate that I took one of those payday loans and paid like 400% interest when I returned. It was SO worth it though! But, I was ready to quit my music career last October – that how the alcohol had screwed up my brain. Guess what? We got a record deal via Sleaze Sisters in London! Promos coming out next month. Being released on Universal Records.

I almost lost all of that.

Love ya,

brenda

On 3/28/06 6:32 AM, “CallieMimosa@aol.com” <CallieMimosa@aol.com> wrote:

—
Shakti
Vocalist/Lyricist
House, Soul, Background vocals
650-906-2543

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 28, 2006 at 10:58:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/28/06 10:01:11 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Hi Howard,

Nick

Hi Nick,

I think it is all part and parcel of one big ball of wax. How people are treated including how they are verbally treated effects how they act and respond. Changes are not instantaneous and Herman means them in both long and short term and within a methadone maintenance as well as other environments. And certainly people lay it all on themselves but, having another pushing it down your mouth all the time does not make it easier to gain your self-esteem, an important element in accomplishing moderating or stopping drug use or just about anything else you want to change or moderate in your life.

Howard

From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ] (OT?) Re: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..
Date: March 28, 2006 at 10:22:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ha ha the blues brothers LOL

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 11:47 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT?) Re: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..

How funny, I’ve always looked at Jazz as a form of Musical Wanking……..
hmm

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

Dana/cnw

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From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 28, 2006 at 10:18:14 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Music sounded much faster to me after ibogaine, as if it had increased
in tempo but that effect didn’t seem to last. I find my hearing
changed at times though and I hear parts of music that I never noticed
particularly base parts.

Rock n roll makes me feel high and energised, I needed to listen to
something more chilled while at work or I felt like exploding.

Luke

On 3/27/06, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
music definitely puts me in a “buzzed” state, and I’ve used music I can’t
count how many times to get through the worst of withdrawals- it seriously
helped me through weeks of methadone withdrawal years ago, combined with
pot.
Post ibogaine, I find I’m much more adventerous musically too.
Peace, love and respect.
Preston
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —–
From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

Dana/cnw

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From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What’s up wih Stanley?
Date: March 28, 2006 at 10:13:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

News flash from Albany Med…………………. Severe morphine shortage at Albany Med. Heroin going for a premeum price amogst Glick’s untreated rat’s. I wonder how his research is going. Randy
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: drugwar@mindvox.com; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 06:20:06 -0500
Subject: [Ibogaine] Study: High Times Not A Gateway Magazine To Harder Readings

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46452

Study: High Times Not A Gateway Magazine To Harder Readings

gotta go to the URL above to read this.
GO Onion.

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Desire
Date: March 26, 2006 at 8:25:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Original Message —–
From: “BILL JOHNSON” <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 10:34 AM

I hope to find out some other things via this forum. Things like our Methadone program and the loss of any sexual desire, and if anything can be done to help it, also with Ibogaine, does that desire come back?

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

Hey Bill,

Welcome mate,.I for one can say that sexual desire definitely comes back after
treatment.

When I was on methadone my sexual desire was diminished especially when I
was not exercising. Whenever I had a reduction, my sexual desire would come back until
I stabilised again. I remember an ex saying,..well,..that’s definitely a bonus to reducing.

After having an Ibo’ session, the big fella down there,..ok ok,..the little teeny fella down
there wouldn’t leave me alone he was up every morning looking for the crack of Dawn,..
and Dawn always came.

I found when I was on the methadone and I was exercising often then the desire would
get stronger,..if I stopped exercising it would diminish.

love, Jasen

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 28, 2006 at 9:57:36 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Nick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]  Sent: 27 March 2006 18:30 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

There have seen some posts to lists that I thought interesting to cross post with the permission of the author. Here is one from Herman Joseph who worked on early methadone research with Dole and Nyswander.  Howard
Subj: Re: [namaadvocate] Vancouver  Date: Monday, March 27, 2006 12:49:51 AM From: urherman@earthlink.net To: namaadvocate@yahoogroups.com  I met the wonderful insightful Bill Nelles at the last harm reduction conference in Belfast as well as others including the Dutch harm reduction people who are responsible for this vocabulary and they are stubborn. Only the patients can confront them being identified as patients —However, they will tell you that 75% of the patients in Holland accept the substitution concept–in my opinion because that is what they have been told either overtly or covertly and by professional attitudes. While Holland has good accessibility to programs and has pioneered the use of methadone buses and needle exchange they have a distorted understanding of what methadone really does and initially they have been a low dose country never prescribing above 80 mg/dy with many patients receiving sub therapeutic doses of 40 and below –In recent years this has changed somewhat but the old concepts remain: patients now receive higher doses but substitution is the word and methadone user/client. The harm reduction language and English slang expressions have really contributed to the stigmatization of the medication, the treatment and the patients. Dr. Dole is on our side-he realizes the full power of language to induce stigma. Stigmatizing language is not semantics, it reduces ones status. Dole and Nyswander never used the words substitution and user–They and I feel that patients should be uplifted with the vocabulary to express what methadone and now buprenorphine are -long acting agonist medications to treat the physiological impairments of opioid addiction. Medication and patients -not substitution and user/ clients Lastly and this is my old refrain –it is the patients who must define how they and their treatment are to be regarded –not the nurses, not the social workers, not the doctors, not the world Health Organization, not the researchers, not the sociologists, not the psychologists, not the harm reduction workers. not the administrators. The quality of patient lives is at stake with the stigma issue and it must be resolved. Lastly the professionals can always earn a living–the stigmatized patients may not. I will be at both the AATOD and Harm Reduction conferences Herman
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Study: High Times Not A Gateway Magazine To Harder Readings
Date: March 28, 2006 at 9:44:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hahahahahahahaha!!! I love the Onion! Thanks Preston!
Callie

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: March 28, 2006 at 9:41:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/27/2006 11:43:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Callie
Date: March 28, 2006 at 9:32:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brenda, I am so happy for you.The information you offer is so very important to others who have not had the Ibogaine experience. Deciding to interrupt addictive behavior is a HUGE step. It is financially a big step too, so to go into the experience without a complete plan is a mistake. BUT, it is typical addict/alcoholic behavior to not have a plan for the months after.
Being an addict I can say that desiring to get rid of addiction is probably number one on my ‘wish list’. If I am honest though I will acknowledge that I can never be entirely rid of addiction. It is a part of who I am whether I like it or not.
It is wonderful that you say you feel ‘part of it all’. I know the feeling of alienating myself and feeling I am different from everyone. I usually blame that on other people thinking they are better than me but really it is I who feels I am not as good as everyone else.
You keep on keeping on Brenda! Share your accomplishments and mistakes. To hear those things help me.
toodles, Callie

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Study: High Times Not A Gateway Magazine To Harder Readings
Date: March 28, 2006 at 6:20:06 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46452

Study: High Times Not A Gateway Magazine To Harder Readings

gotta go to the URL above to read this.
GO Onion.

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Dana/Road to Eleusis
Date: March 28, 2006 at 2:34:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Dana,

I was surfing the web and came across a reference to The Road to Eleusis, Unveiling the Secrets of the Mysteries, by R. Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann and Carl Ruck. I really enjoyed Ruck’s presentation at the 2005 NYC Ibogaine Conference. I am not sure if the pdf is for the complete book as it is being offered on the web for close to $300.00 so take a look at the pdf that is downloadable from the url below. Howard

http://www.egodeath.com/eleusis.pdf

From: brenda brewer <shakti@photon.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Callie
Date: March 28, 2006 at 1:18:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Callie,

My decision to do Ibogaine saved my life in many ways – my health, my relationships, my career – everything. My relapse was a very important learning experience for me that helped my process along.

My follow through with aftercare is what is rounding out the whole experience and make each part work – I think anyone doing Ibogaine for addiction interruption without an aftercare plan is wasting their time.

I’m beginning the experience of thriving now. I’m sitting next to a sizzling fireplace in a seaside resort home in Monterey, CA wind howling outside. I’m vacationing here with my boyfriend’s family sipping on a cup of chamomile tea and I feel a part of it all.

And I’m going for everything I have ever dreamed of – I almost gave up those dreams before Ibogaine.

brenda

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: March 28, 2006 at 12:15:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/27/06 11:12:13 PM, billjohnson6@sympatico.ca writes:

Is that the way it goes? and happily ever after 130 ml drink
meth daily and or 15-25 x40mg of Oxys

Sometimes and sometimes not. Well, that is for the methadone part. I just caught that you say you are using additionally 15- 25 40mg oxys. That is quite a mix. I’d like to hear from anyone who can report on treating a mix as described. And certainly I think everyone here would like to know what it is like for you to do it. If you have cardiovascular disease of any type I would just say just forget it.

Whatever effect you can anticipate will be better than for any other pharmacotherapy I have ever heard of. The three, four or five key ibogaine web pages have a lot of information both technical and patient reports.

Howard

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 26, 2006 at 4:10:29 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Kirsty……huh???? im lost, wots the huh for??? (dont forget, me stoopid australian)
—– Original Message —– From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Chi….. huh????

—–Original Message—–
From: cm [mailto:cm67@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Saturday, 25 March 2006 8:33 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

anything i wrote about the pharmaceutical companies was something id asked a

sheep loving australian lad over coffee
last year and that was the answer he gave me : )
—– Original Message —– From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Kirk yells “I’M NOT OUTSPOKEN AND I REALLY WANTED TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT
THAT”.
..
After watching the rite of passage dvd and being a long term snarler at
Pharamaceuticals, a point was made that it’s not just the pharmaceuticals,
it’s the SHAREHOLDERS, social stigma blah blah who won’t have a bar of it,
so us born again iboganutz need to start our own pharmaceutical, own all
the
shares et voila!!
Yeh well, that’s from a fried brain, gimmee a break LOL
Koikywoiky going mad.

—–Original Message—–
From: cm [mailto:cm67@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Friday, 24 March 2006 11:52 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

to be affiliated with drug/herion addicts.
and furthermore, if im not wrong the nazis came up with methadone in the
1st

place for one of hitlers generals who was an opium addict so he could go
to
battle. they ended up giving it to their soldiers to get them addicted and
wouldnt give them more (leave them hanging out) till they made it to the
next town they were to strike.
so if there was no one left on methadone, there would be no more little
hitler soldiers running around, how would the government keep such an
outspoken bunch of people quiet?????
—– Original Message —– From: “František Hrdý” <fanyz@seznam.cz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

This forum is running so fast now, that I really can’t catch up reading
it

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything,
but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to provide
Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

3. WHAT EXACTLY HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY?
What communication has been done with different governments, drug
centres,

many are positive about it?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even idea
that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

There is .eu domain registration open now. (Did anyone of you try domain
Ibogaine.com or Ibogaine.info – what does this content have to do with
Ibogaine? Well, .com probably expires next year and .info at september.
There are no pages on .org, which is registered to NDA.) I would like to
register Ibogaine.eu and Detox.eu domains and make very general web pages
with tons of links, explanations, statistics and so. What do you people
think about it, is there someone here interested in helping me?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African lady
in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx
and publish it on Internet?

I’m pretty certain that I would get more replies if I needed some
personal

help. Well that’s cool too. You are nice people and love and personal
help

is sure most important. But I still believe that this fucked-up world may
be made better by good people joining together and doing something big.
Please participate in improving in what all people agree is good – hope,
help, faith, freedom … any ideas?

With love and devotion

fanyz

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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 27, 2006 at 11:37:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hey Bill, welcome to the Ibogaine list. A good list to be on.
Callie

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: OT southern versus northern hemisphere…
Date: March 27, 2006 at 11:41:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Guy & Bill
Date: March 27, 2006 at 11:29:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

brenda, of course i can only go by your posts and you seem a lot better since January! You may be doing better than you realize. I am not taking away from the ‘relapse’ but you were a MESS before your Ibogaine.
I hear a calmer, maybe saner brenda!
hug yourself!
callie

From: “BILL JOHNSON” <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth vs Ibogaine
Date: March 27, 2006 at 11:09:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ok I am just getting started and I have 2 computers that I use so I am getting things mixed up as far as trying to follow anything that yous are taliking about,

Thats OK though– I will still see if any person out there has really taken ibogaine after being on methadone for a year or 2?,. not to mention some inbetweens happenings, like when I over drink and am on empty/ like right now.

Couple of things to just get going here- so far I am very pleased with the good words that seem to be used here, Meaning it appears like this is a grownup site L.O.L. not a vulgar ,well you can imagane. OK so you may slip here and there never mind eh!

Alright now, I have a problem(s) Many, my obvious one of course is that I am contemplating making this BIG plan to get the $3,000.00 or so together (got some spare change?) and go on a 3-5 day or so layover somewhere and have Ibogaine administered, fly back home (across country) and carry on my marry way , working eating sleeping and who knows, maybe my wife and I will re-start some fire,After all I will be RE-SET or at least free from my physical addiction and have little or no cravings???
Is that the way it goes? and happily ever after 130 ml drink meth daily and or 15-25 x40mg of Oxys
Can a guy speak freely here? I do not expect much yet I have recieved a reply x2 and that was very uplifting and I felt good to know someone actually heard me!!

I’ll stop now (writing,rambling)

Good night New people

Bill J

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: OT southern versus northern hemisphere…
Date: March 27, 2006 at 2:23:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Those of us here in the southern hemisphere are now in autumn and heading into winter…. not sure what that means for them bloody aussie folk, but here in Dunedin it means ….brrr, but not too brrr just enough to be a pain lol.
So, embrace your spring and enjoy ya summer.
Koiky xx

oh, oops, never mind then.
;-))
I thought that seemed like I’d already answered it in some form, but thought you were just clarifying, so I too clarified.
So it’s all clear now.
Whew.
Hope you and everyone else is enjoying these first days of Spring- it’s gorgeous if still a bit cold here.
Lotsof respect.
—– ”If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

Peace and love. Preston ptpeet@nyc.rr.com Editor Underground Editor Under the Influence Editor http://www.drugwar.com Cont. HighTimes mag/.com Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com Columnist New York Waste Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: cm
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

hey Preston, that was the same msg that i sent like a week ago, the computer servers playing up
chi x
—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

Again Chi, he’s mistaken if that’s really what was said- if, as Howard made very clear, one goes back to using at the Same Levels one was using previous to taking ibogaine, the risk is high. If one takes decreased amounts, the risks are seriously decreased as well.
Peace, love and respect.
—– ”Bring us, oh Cardinal, three junkies. Give them the wine and the wafer, and sit with them for forty-eight hours. We’ll bring three junkies also, give them Ibogaine, and sit with them for forty-eight hours. At the end of the time, you have breakfast with your junkies, and we’ll have breakfast with ours.” Beal/Armentano-  The Ibogaine Story: Report on the Staten Island Project

Peace and love. Preston Peet ptpeet@nyc.rr.com Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”  Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs” Editor http://www.drugwar.com Cont. High Times mag/.com Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com Columnist New York Waste Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: cm
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

have you been treated with ibogaine callie??? i havent – but from what ive read and from what the kind young
man who has already had it done and will be treating me this is what it does. so if you go back to using after
theres a very high risk of od’ing
chi x
—– Original Message —–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time, iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:
and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by habit..
oh!!!oh!!!oh!!!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!!!
Is that really possible? I can’t imagine being that way as far as narcotic opiates are concerned!
Did the Ibogaine reset your receptors totally back to pre addiction state?
Sorry, but I just have the damndest time believing that is true!
Callie

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Desire
Date: March 27, 2006 at 2:25:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OK, it has to be said. WHO IS DAWN?
Luff n laughter
Capt Kirk (yeh that’s what I said, Capt KIRK) lol

After having an Ibo’ session, the big fella down there,..ok ok,..the
little teeny fella down
there wouldn’t leave me alone he was up every morning looking for the
crack of Dawn,..
and Dawn always came.

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 27, 2006 at 1:57:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LMAO, not just me then… although I guess it’s completely different for a woman!!!!
K

That’s a touchy subject!!!

—–Original Message—–
From: Kirk [mailto:captkirk@clear.net.nz]
Sent: 27 March 2006 08:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Guy, what was your, um….stamina like though?? Lol just curious….

—–Original Message—–
From: Guy Bragge [mailto:guybragge@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 5:27 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Hi Bill, sex drive come back? You better believe it!!!!
Guy

—–Original Message—–
From: BILL JOHNSON [mailto:billjohnson6@sympatico.ca]
Sent: 27 March 2006 02:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Losing Hope From Canada

Wow, and Finally hello Ibogaine@mindvox.com My name is Bill and I have
just by fluke came across the Word Ibogaine and it’s Possibilities very
recently, SO YES FANZ I WOULD LIKE TO BE A PART OF EDUCATING THE WORLD ABOUT
SUCH A PRODUCT SO AS TO MAKE THIS INFORMATION OR ALTURNATIVE CHOICE
AVAILABLE TO ALL.
I have not gotten to take Ibo yet but I hope to in the near future and
I also would like to be able to take some good time Out so as to get the
program down and be able to hurt and or grow and or ??? whatever, but I do
not do pain and suffering very good, so I am very scared.
I take 130mls of Methadone each day and when I go overboard with my carries
I end up searching and using the Oxys for a few days to help escape the
potential pain of withdrawl. It is very stupid, because I keep doing worse
every time I seem to get the drive to just stop the insanity.
Not feeling so well this moment but I wanted to say that after reading a
bunch of your posts I have been a little encouraged to find out again that I
am not alone and there still seems to be some good people kiking around this
$&%$@%$&^%$$* world of ours.
I will read more and stay conected, because I need people that are alive
and who carry hope and are not to judgemental.
I have been in touch with a clinic in Vancouver that I plan on attending
just as soon as I can pull things together. (Hopefully they are still there
and can take me when I have all the money).
I hope to find out some other things via this forum. Things like our
Methadone program and the loss of any sexual desire, and if anything can be
done to help it, also with Ibogaine, does that desire come back?

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:52:14 +1000

Q.3 WHAT HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY? i havent done ibogaine myself yet, still on
methadone, lowering my dose, going to counselling and getting the money
together to take 2 months off when i do. from what ive read about ibogaine,
and ive read alot, NIDA did studies on ibogaine using addicts in the early
90’s, there was a death and the trials stopped.
ive also been told that because ibogaine is largely a one off treatment no
pharmaceutical co. will put their name to it, no money to be made, dont
want to be affiliated with drug/herion addicts.
and furthermore, if im not wrong the nazis came up with methadone in the
1st place for one of hitlers generals who was an opium addict so he could
go to battle. they ended up giving it to their soldiers to get them
addicted and wouldnt give them more (leave them hanging out) till they made
it to the next town they were to strike.
so if there was no one left on methadone, there would be no more little
hitler soldiers running around, how would the government keep such an
outspoken bunch of people quiet?????
—– Original Message —– From: “FrantiÅ¡ek HrdÃ½” <fanyz@seznam.cz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

This forum is running so fast now, that I really can’t catch up reading it
all. Most of posts seem to me either empty talk or people trying to
express their lives misery. Maybe I’m just lazy to read though. I like
humour and I like to say that life sucks just as everyone else does, but
are we not missing the main point here?

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything,
but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to provide
Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

3. WHAT EXACTLY HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY?
What communication has been done with different governments, drug centres,
hospitals, and rich people?
How far did it come in scientific researches?
Were there any courses done in public places, schools or churches?
What about posters and so?
I found endless sources on Internet, but what about TV shows?
Was Ibogaine ever mentioned in any mass-movie?
Can you estimate, how many people has already heard about Ibogaine and how
many are positive about it?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even idea
that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

There is .eu domain registration open now. (Did anyone of you try domain
Ibogaine.com or Ibogaine.info â€“ what does this content have to do with
Ibogaine? Well, .com probably expires next year and .info at september.
There are no pages on .org, which is registered to NDA.) I would like to
register Ibogaine.eu and Detox.eu domains and make very general web pages
with tons of links, explanations, statistics and so. What do you people
think about it, is there someone here interested in helping me?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African lady
in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx
and publish it on Internet?

I’m pretty certain that I would get more replies if I needed some personal
help. Well that’s cool too. You are nice people and love and personal help
is sure most important. But I still believe that this fucked-up world may
be made better by good people joining together and doing something big.
Please participate in improving in what all people agree is good â€“ hope,
help, faith, freedom … any ideas?

With love and devotion

fanyz

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From: brenda brewer <shakti@photon.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] To Guy & Bill
Date: March 27, 2006 at 12:59:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi guys (and list),

Ii would err on the side of caution when it comes to aftercare. The wonderful experience of having no urges does not last. Mine was not so wonderful, I had no urges but I was very sick with the flu for a month – but that was just what it was.

I did my session at the end of Nov. – no aftercare set up. At Christmas got on a plane to Mexico and my documents were not in order. They put me back on the plane and that little addictive voice took over – free drinks! Alcohol with-drawl is not pretty.

I slipped and slided for a few months quitting and starting. Finally I went back to my doctor to get some substance abuse counseling, therapy, whatever. Now, I’m going to secular recovery meetings and I am REALLY enjoying them! I even have a friend close by in San Francisco who did Ibo that is going to be joining me sometime.

So, as they say, “relapses” can be very educational if you learn from them. What’s cool is that I am learning about urges and the many different ways they can show up. I may even do Ibo again 🙂

Did your Ibo providers suggest aftercare? Mine did over and over. I think I was really too much in a state of shock at the time because I had to fly right back to California. But, it’s all good. Thinking long-term, when you can, is really worth it. Life is SO much better now! I love myself more (even like myself!) and enjoying things again I had stopped enjoying a long tome ago – simple things.

Blessings and welcome to the list,

brenda

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] from methadone list – Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone
Date: March 27, 2006 at 12:30:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard

Subj: Re: [namaadvocate] Vancouver
Date: Monday, March 27, 2006 12:49:51 AM
From: urherman@earthlink.net
To: namaadvocate@yahoogroups.com

Hi Marko,

Thanks,;)

Sara

Hi Sara,

nice to meet you !!

Marko

Sara Glatt wrote:

look up the link then look up Ibogawortel then its easy.
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=archief.zoekopdatum&datum=24-3-2006

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From: marko <marko@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine short report from Dutch TV
Date: March 27, 2006 at 9:20:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sara,

nice to meet you !!

Marko

Sara Glatt wrote:

look up the link then look up Ibogawortel then its easy.
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=archief.zoekopdatum&datum=24-3-2006

From: “Guy Bragge” <guybragge@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 27, 2006 at 6:26:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Bill, my experience pre Ibo was that once a thought entered my brain that
thought became an uncontrollable urge and it was only a matter of time
before I relapsed.(from traditional re-hab) post iBo I can think about drugs
but it has not yet become an uncontrollable urge. IT is quite amazing. I
always used to imagine I had a switch in my brain and once it tripped, I was
a gonner. Now it feels like the switch has been removed. I am only 5 weeks
clean off H. I hope it stays this way.
Guy

—–Original Message—–
From: BILL JOHNSON [mailto:billjohnson6@sympatico.ca]
Sent: 27 March 2006 08:42
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

Bill here, I am new today, posted a couple of notes and got some great
people talking to me, I mean I don’t feel like no loser,even though I am not

post Ibo yet, but give me some time and I will be. In response to the
reseting of the recepters to a pre-addictive state,YES that sounds tooooo
goood to be true, yet I want to believe – If that is true or even remotelly
close please talk more about it, Thanks.

P.S. Is it O.K. to talk about other kinda stuff like hey I have fallen and
now I am short meds or else I have stayed on track for a change or stuff-
you know.

First time in such a place
B.J.

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:35:25 EST

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,
iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:

and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by habit..

oh!!!oh!!!oh!!!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!!!
Is that really possible? I can’t imagine being that way as far as narcotic
opiates are concerned!
Did the Ibogaine reset your receptors totally back to pre addiction state?
Sorry, but I just have the damndest time believing that is true!
Callie

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 27, 2006 at 7:37:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

oh, oops, never mind then.
;-))
I thought that seemed like I’d already answered it in some form, but thought you were just clarifying, so I too clarified.
So it’s all clear now.
Whew.
Hope you and everyone else is enjoying these first days of Spring- it’s gorgeous if still a bit cold here.
Lotsof respect.
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

Peace and love.
Preston
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor Underground
Editor Under the Influence
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: cm
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

Again Chi, he’s mistaken if that’s really what was said- if, as Howard made very clear, one goes back to using at the Same Levels one was using previous to taking ibogaine, the risk is high. If one takes decreased amounts, the risks are seriously decreased as well.
Peace, love and respect.
—–
“Bring us, oh Cardinal, three junkies.
Give them the wine and the wafer,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
We’ll bring three junkies also,
give them Ibogaine,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
At the end of the time,
you have breakfast with your junkies,
and we’ll have breakfast with ours.”
Beal/Armentano-
The Ibogaine Story:
Report on the Staten Island Project

Peace and love.
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: cm
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time, iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:
and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by habit..

oh!!!oh!!!oh!!!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!!!
Is that really possible? I can’t imagine being that way as far as narcotic opiates are concerned!
Did the Ibogaine reset your receptors totally back to pre addiction state?
Sorry, but I just have the damndest time believing that is true!
Callie

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 26, 2006 at 5:47:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Again Chi, he’s mistaken if that’s really what was said- if, as Howard made very clear, one goes back to using at the Same Levels one was using previous to taking ibogaine, the risk is high. If one takes decreased amounts, the risks are seriously decreased as well.
Peace, love and respect.
—–
“Bring us, oh Cardinal, three junkies.
Give them the wine and the wafer,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
We’ll bring three junkies also,
give them Ibogaine,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
At the end of the time,
you have breakfast with your junkies,
and we’ll have breakfast with ours.”
Beal/Armentano-
The Ibogaine Story:
Report on the Staten Island Project

Peace and love.
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: cm
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time, iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:
and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by habit..

oh!!!oh!!!oh!!!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!!!
Is that really possible? I can’t imagine being that way as far as narcotic opiates are concerned!
Did the Ibogaine reset your receptors totally back to pre addiction state?
Sorry, but I just have the damndest time believing that is true!
Callie

From: “Guy Bragge” <guybragge@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 27, 2006 at 6:21:45 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s a touchy subject!!!

Guy, what was your, um….stamina like though?? Lol just curious….

Hi Bill, sex drive come back? You better believe it!!!!
Guy

Losing Hope From Canada

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:52:14 +1000

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything,
but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to provide
Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even idea
that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African lady
in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx
and publish it on Internet?

With love and devotion

fanyz

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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 27, 2006 at 2:56:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine is just a little part of trying to change your life.

This could be the motto over the door of every iboga treatment.

I have issues … and Ibogaine brought them out for me to
promtly ignore.

I heard that a therapist trainer said, never settle on an answer,
and I would add here – good conclusion or bad one, don’t stop
thinking, don’t settle for mere eloquence. Especially watch out if
you find yourself putting yourself down.

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 07:18:51 -0800 biscuitboy714@aol.com wrote:
Preston, my car didn’t get put in the lot they just moved it
across the
street. 65 dollar parking ticket. You gotta love NYC. I didn’t
mean to
run you off with my drama. Fact is the project that you are
working on
is gonna be real cool when it is done. I was going to change the
header
on this post but looking at it it seems pertinet to where I am.
I’m in
the city helping Dana with the museam project and looking for a
good
therapist. I have a number to call tomorrow and I will call at 9
am.
when I ffigure the guy gets in to the office. I fucked up. I know
that.
I should have stopped to think long enough to know the outcome of
me
not following up with therapy my Ibogaine treatment. I saw a few
people
who hadn’t ever heard of Ibogaine and tried but since I was
smarter
than they were (I’m sick, I know) I didn’t think I could get
anything
from it. Well that’s bullshit, Ibogaine is just a little part of
trying
to change your life. It is the only way to go for interupting the
addiction but there is so much more to it than that. I have issues

(to
say the fuckin’ least) and Ibogaine brought them out for me to
promtly
ignore. I’m gonna work on them now. I have to. This is kind of
scary. I
don’t run from much but I have been running from this a long time.

Please forgive the typo’s, I’m on Dana’s hot rod……..I mean
computer
and can’t use it very well. In the meantime I have written a
really
cool blues tune and the music is in my head again in full force.
Clarity rules. Somebody put me in a studio. Thank God for my
friends
here. I love you all. You can’t stop me. Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 01:24:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

I recently picked up the book The Strength of
the Wolf-the Secret History of America’s War on Drugs<

by Douglas Valentine.

—–
“Bring us, oh Cardinal, three junkies.
Give them the wine and the wafer,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
We’ll bring three junkies also,
give them Ibogaine,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
At the end of the time,
you have breakfast with your junkies,
and we’ll have breakfast with ours.”
Beal/Armentano-
The Ibogaine Story:
Report on the Staten Island Project

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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Which came first???
Date: March 27, 2006 at 4:10:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wholeness emerging from who-o-ol-ness
wholeness sti-i-l-l remains

what happens if you suck on the straw?

The first time I had a Macdonald’s Milkshake???? Absolutely bloody
buggery-all bloody NOTHING!!! It was a MilkSolid!!! Worst milkshake
ever!!!
What was the question again?>??
Kirk

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Which came first???
Date: March 27, 2006 at 3:02:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wholeness emerging from who-o-ol-ness
wholeness sti-i-l-l remains

what happens if you suck on the straw?

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:39:56 -0800 Henk <knehnav@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Hi,

Interesting view, once explained to me in the following way:
Imagine a painting (creation), which depicts everything that was,
is and
will be (time). We, us, our limited consciousness look at this
picture
through a tiny straw, all we can conceive is what we see through
the straw.
The straw is moving, giving us the illusion of time and space.
Here we are, stuck with a tunnel vision of That What Is.
Forgotten that there is no coming or going, that we are All and
One.
Gracias a Dios

Henk

Kevin Brady wrote:

Time is an illusion. There is no such thing as motion, or heat,

or
energy. Each moment is a complete universe. The impression of
motion
is created by the viewpoint scanning through moments, much like
animation. The speed with which we compulsively scan through
the
moments fools us into “belief” in time, space, location, etc.

In other words, they both came first.

“Free Will is limited by repressed intention. There is no
knowledge
that is not self-knowledge.” – KGB

Facilitator, Applied Metapsychology International/Traumatic
Incident
Reduction Association
www.tir.org

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Which came first???
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:47:00 +1200

The Ego and the chicken or the Egg-o and the chicken?
This could get interesting…

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: Thursday, 23 March 2006 5:10 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Which came first???

The ego and the chicken are one.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:14:29 -0800 jon@mindvox.com wrote:
The real truth is that there is no chicken.

Well, actually Paul, I heard a different story…..
It was actually the egg which was the result of a couple of
horny birds of
different species (of wot I dunno mate….) getting’ it on
bro,
Chuckle.

—–Original Message—–
From: Paul Brookshaw [mailto:jiggy9@hotmail.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 March 2006 9:31 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Which came first???

Hello all,
Which came first. The Chicken or the egg? Well my
Son.

Of
course,
the Chicken, for, how else would they have babies. Thankyou
Father.
Bless you

my
Son!!!
Strength, Power and Honour, Respect

Bless
you
all Paul!!!

_________________________________________________________________
Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download
MSN
Messenger
7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview

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—
Om Shanti, Jai Mataji, Jai Gangama.

Lost and Free Enterprises

http://www.xs4all.nl/~knehnav

http://www.geocities.com/knehnav55/

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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 27, 2006 at 3:12:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeh, Bill, I was sceptical but extremely hopeful but it’s true…
As for what to talk about? If it wasn’t ok to talk about other stuff I
woulda been kicked out a long time ago!!!!
As would most of us…….
There’s people here at all sorts of stages, which is what makes this place
really interesting. I love hearing from people before, during and after a
session on ibo. The change can be incredible.
Yakkit Up!!
Koiky

—–Original Message—–
From: BILL JOHNSON [mailto:billjohnson6@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 6:42 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

Bill here, I am new today, posted a couple of notes and got some great
people talking to me, I mean I don’t feel like no loser,even though I am not

P.S. Is it O.K. to talk about other kinda stuff like hey I have fallen and
now I am short meds or else I have stayed on track for a change or stuff-
you know.

First time in such a place
B.J.

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:35:25 EST

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,
iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:

and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by habit..

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 27, 2006 at 3:12:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Read the intro – whatever you’ve got, you can put yourself out on
the list and see what happens. Try to be nice to others.

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 22:41:44 -0800 BILL JOHNSON
<billjohnson6@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Bill here, I am new today, posted a couple of notes and got some
great
people talking to me, I mean I don’t feel like no loser,even
though I am not
post Ibo yet, but give me some time and I will be. In response to
the
reseting of the recepters to a pre-addictive state,YES that sounds

tooooo
goood to be true, yet I want to believe – If that is true or even
remotelly
close please talk more about it, Thanks.

P.S. Is it O.K. to talk about other kinda stuff like hey I have
fallen and
now I am short meds or else I have stayed on track for a change or

stuff-
you know.

First time in such a place
B.J.

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:35:25 EST

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,
iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:

and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by

habit..

oh!!!oh!!!oh!!!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!!!
Is that really possible? I can’t imagine being that way as far as

narcotic
opiates are concerned!
Did the Ibogaine reset your receptors totally back to pre
addiction state?
Sorry, but I just have the damndest time believing that is true!
Callie

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From: “BILL JOHNSON” <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 27, 2006 at 1:41:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bill here, I am new today, posted a couple of notes and got some great people talking to me, I mean I don’t feel like no loser,even though I am not post Ibo yet, but give me some time and I will be. In response to the reseting of the recepters to a pre-addictive state,YES that sounds tooooo goood to be true, yet I want to believe – If that is true or even remotelly close please talk more about it, Thanks.

P.S. Is it O.K. to talk about other kinda stuff like hey I have fallen and now I am short meds or else I have stayed on track for a change or stuff- you know.

First time in such a place
B.J.

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:35:25 EST

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,
iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:

and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by habit..

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 27, 2006 at 1:03:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Guy, what was your, um….stamina like though?? Lol just curious….

Hi Bill, sex drive come back? You better believe it!!!!
Guy

Losing Hope From Canada

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:52:14 +1000

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything,
but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to provide
Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even idea
that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African lady
in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx
and publish it on Internet?

With love and devotion

fanyz

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Fw: [Ibogaine] Desire
Date: March 27, 2006 at 12:59:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Desire

— Original Message —–
From: “BILL JOHNSON” <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 10:34 AM

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

Hey Bill,

Welcome mate,.I for one can say that sexual desire definitely comes back after
treatment.

I found when I was on the methadone and I was exercising often then the desire would
get stronger,..if I stopped exercising it would diminish.

love, Jasen

From: Canela <canela@artcamp.com.mx>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Missing Person EMERGENCY
Date: March 27, 2006 at 1:27:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.artcamp.com.mx/Tourmaline/index.htm
Sorry to interrupt the always fascinating discussion

From: “Guy Bragge” <guybragge@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 27, 2006 at 12:26:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Bill, sex drive come back? You better believe it!!!!
Guy

Losing Hope From Canada

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:52:14 +1000

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything,
but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to provide
Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even idea
that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African lady
in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx
and publish it on Internet?

With love and devotion

fanyz

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]argumentative????
Date: March 26, 2006 at 4:15:21 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I appreciate your corrections and find them informative
chi x
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

>And it IS true that Anslinger was a nazi creep who
used his feds to run a regular police state against against
dissenters who questioned the basis of marijuana prohibition, such as
Lindesmith, the professor from Indiana who persecution finally moved
Kennedy to kick Anslinger upstairs to the U.N., where it was thought
he couldn’t do as much mischief.<

No trouble with this bit here. I recently picked up the book The Strength of the Wolf-the Secret History of America’s War on Drugs, which covers the history of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, Anslinger’s baby, which existed from 1930 to 1968. I haven’t actually started it yet (reading the ibogaine story still), but am looking forward to cracking this baby open.
Discovery Channel every so often runs a show about Hitler’s crazy doctors and the use of drugs in the Reich, so you’re on the money there too, I think.
Anyway, I’m not trying to be argumentative, I just like to correct misconceptions if I come across them and know they aren’t quite correct. It doesn’t help my side of the issue much if I or fellow drug users begin telling others false information- it can lead to prohibitionists belittling all our arguments and more easily getting away with it because of any proveably wrong info I or others might pass on.

—– Original Message —– From: “Dana Beal” <dana@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

I didn’t want people to misinterpret your refutation of the folk myth, is all. Surely you’ve heard the sub-variant where the inventor synthesizes it in 1934-5, names it Adolphine to cash in on Hitler- mania (which was real in the early Reich), and gets a big medal from the Nazis. Alas, it sounds great, but isn’t true. The website probably has it right, since it’s based on chemical company documents.

But all the stuff about Goering, Goebbels and Hitler is true–I have a book somewhere about Hitler’s crazy doctors. New Age medicine is not really a very good way to run a Reich (possible reflection on Ramtha there). And it IS true that Anslinger was a nazi creep who used his feds to run a regular police state against against dissenters who questioned the basis of marijuana prohibition, such as Lindesmith, the professor from Indiana who persecution finally moved Kennedy to kick Anslinger upstairs to the U.N., where it was thought he couldn’t do as much mischief.

I can attest that Allen Ginsberg was traumatized by his persecution at the hands of Anslinger until the day he died.

JFK himself was a medical marijuana user– for his bad back. I don’t think he really thought thru the implications of the U.N. Single Convention on Cannabis and other Psychotropic Drugs. This is an international treaty all the signatories can pretty much enforce as they please, so long as they don’t legalize outright. But DEA cited it against UDV and are trying to get all signatories to ban ibogaine under it.

Dana/cnw

On Mar 25, 2006, at 4:29 PM, Preston Peet wrote:

LOL, Where in the world are you getting the impression I said anything but that the Germans invented methadone Dana?
—–
“Bring us, oh Cardinal, three junkies.
Give them the wine and the wafer,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
We’ll bring three junkies also,
give them Ibogaine,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
At the end of the time,
you have breakfast with your junkies,
and we’ll have breakfast with ours.”
Beal/Armentano-
The Ibogaine Story:
Report on the Staten Island Project

—– Original Message —– From: “Dana Beal” <dana@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

hi ‘Preston’, i went to your link and from what i read the germans did invent it. i got my info, not a reliable source i know, from the movie sid & nancy years ago.
when they are being dosed they get this big lecture about the germans having made the shit and he didnt like seeing american kids chugging it.
so i then asked someone more on the subject and the told me it did come from the germans cos one of hitlers generals was an addict. im pretty sure the person i asked all those years ago is now sleeping upstairs. i’ll go and prod him later and find out.

The truth is more interesting. ReichsMarshall Goering was addicted to opiates–and so squandered the military/ industrial complex the Nazis had seized from the Jews, Czechs and others — equivalent to the entire military/idustrial complex of the Soviet Union, which Goering had Hitler put him in charge of — that the Nazis literally lost the war while he was on the nod.

When he was put on trial at Nuremberg and the Allies cut off his opiates, he lost a lot of weight, came to his senses and led the defense of the Regime-members on the dock. Prosecutors said he was by far the smartest of the defendents; but it was a little late, since as head of the Luftwaffe he could have developed the jet 4 years earlier and won the war. But he wasted his years in power plundering Europe for art for his collection.

As for the Adolphine controversy, Preston, I think you will find that it WAS first developed in Germany out of concern that their battlefield supply of opiates might be blockaded, as it had been in WW I. But Goering probably got good heroin up to the end, corpulent from high living rather than methadone. I find the scenario of Hitler’s quack doctor Morel being forced to substitute methamphetamine for the cocaine in the cocktail of drugs he was injected der Fuhrer with much more likely, since there was a sudden deterioration in Hitler’s performance in 1943, when the cocaine blockade really kicked in. I think those injections also may have included belladonna.

But it was crystal meth, not methadone, that the Germans gave their soldiers. That’s nothing– in some of those recent investigation of the U.S. Air Force bombing the wrong wedding party, the fact once again surfaced that they routinely put their pilots on ten milligrams of speed “to improve performance” (i.e, bomb more wedding parties because they’re seeing insects, snakes and rats… ).

Frankly, I’m a lot more concerned with the issue of AIDS patients here in New York being forced on to methadone for their peripheral neuropathy, because it’s so much more toxic than the medical marijuana the whole system is set up to detect and penalize, and because med-mar just WORKS so much better for neuropathy and phantom pain.

This bizarre pro-opiate, anti-cannabis attitude perpetuates a Nazi vendetta against cannabis that dates back to Eugenics Movement Judge Emily Murphy of Alberta who led the campaign to criminalize weed in Canada in 1923, predating Henry Anslinger, and who is cited by Hitler in Mein Kampf as one of his inspirations. Of course Anslinger teamed up with Joseph Goebbels in 1937 to pass identical legislation against cannabis in August in the US., and September in the Third Reich. And Anslinger had a plan promote German-American cooperation thru a mass roundup of jazz musicians and fans who smoke pot. You can check with Larry Sloman. I think it was 6,000 people on a Bureau of Narcotics list. It was stopped only because they needed many of these people to make war films like Casablanca in 1942. (Imagine them barging onto the set and grabbing Sam the piano player in the middle of the move!) Everyone knew the Nazis hated jazz, so they had had to have an obligatory jazz scene in most war movies. The Nazis considered to jazz to be a Jewish plot to promote sex between black men and white women. And Anslinger believed that because syncopation meant you could put in extra beats, jazz replicated pot’s time- distorting effect, making jazz a form of AURAL cannabis vapor, or hash smoke in sonic form.

Banning Cannabis everywhere was definitely part of Hitler’s plan of World Conquest. So it’s highly ironic that his erstwhile supporters such as Anslinger, who spent the war making movies claiming that all the heroin was coming from Japan, went on to acheive just that result in 1962 thru the U.N, an organization originally set up to defeat Nazism. And Goebbel’s Drug Czar, Stringaris became the mentor of Gabriel Nahas, whose faked experiments for the U.N. Narcotics Bureau were later used to stop the decrim tide in the ’70’s

Dana/cnw

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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ] (OT?) Re: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..
Date: March 26, 2006 at 8:21:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lol who you callin a snob ya freak? (im seriously kidding here….)
Actually that was a line off the movie “the commitments” I couldn’t resist
throwing it in.,.. shoulda quoted it didn’t neva mind.
Im maybe one of the least snobby music lovers on the planet….i listen to
just about every genre of music there is. Bar a couple, I think you’d probly
guess what they are…. (“We got both kainds of music, Country AND Western”
Blues Brothers. In saying that I love Johnny Cash…)
Ok,
S’all gewd.
CK

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 11:47 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT?) Re: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..

How funny, I’ve always looked at Jazz as a form of Musical Wanking……..
hmm

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

Dana/cnw

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT?) Re: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..
Date: March 26, 2006 at 6:46:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

to each their own. I spent a long time being a “music snob” but as noted just one or two posts back, music is therapy, and while I might not appreciate jazz so much, it’s Music still, and moves many in ways that Kyuss/Queens of the Stone Age/IronMaiden/Bauhaus/Cure/BasementJaxx/FreelanceHellraiser move me (btw, if anyone has FH’s mashup of BasementJaxx/Clash, I’d LOVE to have the MP3, so write me off list, please if so and can help- I can’t find it, not even here in Manhattan- AND, if anyone down in Oz can find and burn me a copy of Bady Doll’s first album, I’d be eternally grateful as NO ONE here as EVER heard of them, and I LOVE their first album, having heard it in Amsterdam but as noted cannot at all find it here).

—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —– From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..

How funny, I’ve always looked at Jazz as a form of Musical Wanking……..
hmm

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

> hi ‘Preston’, i went to your link and from what i read the germans
> did invent it. i got my info, not a reliable source i know, from
> the movie sid & nancy years ago.
> when they are being dosed they get this big lecture about the
> germans having made the shit and he didnt like seeing american kids
> chugging it.
> so i then asked someone more on the subject and the told me it did
> come from the germans cos one of hitlers generals was an addict. im
> pretty sure the person i asked all those years ago is now sleeping
> upstairs. i’ll go and prod him later and find out.

Dana/cnw

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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 26, 2006 at 8:05:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hiya Bill Johnson,
Welcome to the mad house ;o)
Guess what, it’s never a fluke when one comes across Ibogaine ;o)
Not sure about a Vancouver clinic but someone posted a link on here for a new one starting in Canada.,…. those more organised than me could kindly repost it for you perhaps? Tanks heeps.
I am now a month after treatment and apart from this darn cold and neck pain I am in good spirits and the world feels ok again.
This list is a great support system, it’s the best place to start.
Look forward to hearing more about you and watching you as you (hopefully soon) go thru treatment.
Kirsty 🙂

—–Original Message—–
From: BILL JOHNSON [mailto:billjohnson6@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 12:35 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Losing Hope From Canada

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:52:14 +1000

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything,
but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to provide
Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even idea
that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African lady
in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx
and publish it on Internet?

With love and devotion

fanyz

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From: “BILL JOHNSON” <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fanz <Lets Move On Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 26, 2006 at 7:34:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Losing Hope From Canada

Wow, and Finally hello Ibogaine@mindvox.com My name is Bill and I have just by fluke came across the Word Ibogaine and it’s Possibilities very recently, SO YES FANZ I WOULD LIKE TO BE A PART OF EDUCATING THE WORLD ABOUT SUCH A PRODUCT SO AS TO MAKE THIS INFORMATION OR ALTURNATIVE CHOICE AVAILABLE TO ALL.
I have not gotten to take Ibo yet but I hope to in the near future and I also would like to be able to take some good time Out so as to get the program down and be able to hurt and or grow and or ??? whatever, but I do not do pain and suffering very good, so I am very scared.
I take 130mls of Methadone each day and when I go overboard with my carries I end up searching and using the Oxys for a few days to help escape the potential pain of withdrawl. It is very stupid, because I keep doing worse every time I seem to get the drive to just stop the insanity.
Not feeling so well this moment but I wanted to say that after reading a bunch of your posts I have been a little encouraged to find out again that I am not alone and there still seems to be some good people kiking around this $&%$@%$&^%$$* world of ours.
I will read more and stay conected, because I need people that are alive and who carry hope and are not to judgemental.
I have been in touch with a clinic in Vancouver that I plan on attending just as soon as I can pull things together. (Hopefully they are still there and can take me when I have all the money).
I hope to find out some other things via this forum. Things like our Methadone program and the loss of any sexual desire, and if anything can be done to help it, also with Ibogaine, does that desire come back?

I’ll be back.
Thanks, I hope I am O.K.
Bill

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:52:14 +1000

Q.3 WHAT HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY? i havent done ibogaine myself yet, still on methadone, lowering my dose, going to counselling and getting the money together to take 2 months off when i do. from what ive read about ibogaine, and ive read alot, NIDA did studies on ibogaine using addicts in the early 90’s, there was a death and the trials stopped.
ive also been told that because ibogaine is largely a one off treatment no pharmaceutical co. will put their name to it, no money to be made, dont want to be affiliated with drug/herion addicts.
and furthermore, if im not wrong the nazis came up with methadone in the 1st place for one of hitlers generals who was an opium addict so he could go to battle. they ended up giving it to their soldiers to get them addicted and wouldnt give them more (leave them hanging out) till they made it to the next town they were to strike.
so if there was no one left on methadone, there would be no more little hitler soldiers running around, how would the government keep such an outspoken bunch of people quiet?????
—– Original Message —– From: “František Hrdý” <fanyz@seznam.cz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

This forum is running so fast now, that I really can’t catch up reading it all. Most of posts seem to me either empty talk or people trying to express their lives misery. Maybe I’m just lazy to read though. I like humour and I like to say that life sucks just as everyone else does, but are we not missing the main point here?

I really want to do something to bring Ibogaine closer to the light.
More specifically, I want all addicts to have hope.

Well, couple questions here!
Probably towards Mr. Howard, since he is most informed about everything, but if anyone of you feels you have something to comment, please do it!

First of all, I heard this hundred times, but it’s never enough for me, since I was never addicted.
1. ARE YOU SURE IBOGAINE WORKS?
And I don’t want you to understand this question wrong. Can you try to express what may be stated about Ibogaine with no doubt? (Please, do not say ‘fuck yeah!’ or tell me, it’s extract of root of some African plant – I learned that already!)

2. IS THERE ANY PLAN?
Is there a leader person or leader organisation with plan what to provide Ibogaine to everyone who needs it? What steps are missing?

3. WHAT EXACTLY HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY?
What communication has been done with different governments, drug centres, hospitals, and rich people?
How far did it come in scientific researches?
Were there any courses done in public places, schools or churches?
What about posters and so?
I found endless sources on Internet, but what about TV shows?
Was Ibogaine ever mentioned in any mass-movie?
Can you estimate, how many people has already heard about Ibogaine and how many are positive about it?

4. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTION HOW I COULD BE HELPFUL?
I agree here, that main problem is, that most people don’t have even idea that something like Ibogaine could exist. What can we do about it?

There is .eu domain registration open now. (Did anyone of you try domain Ibogaine.com or Ibogaine.info – what does this content have to do with Ibogaine? Well, .com probably expires next year and .info at september. There are no pages on .org, which is registered to NDA.) I would like to register Ibogaine.eu and Detox.eu domains and make very general web pages with tons of links, explanations, statistics and so. What do you people think about it, is there someone here interested in helping me?

I have two side questions: From what disease was treated the African lady in Rite of passage movie? Would you mind me to convert the movie to divx and publish it on Internet?

I’m pretty certain that I would get more replies if I needed some personal help. Well that’s cool too. You are nice people and love and personal help is sure most important. But I still believe that this fucked-up world may be made better by good people joining together and doing something big.
Please participate in improving in what all people agree is good – hope, help, faith, freedom … any ideas?

With love and devotion

fanyz

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 26, 2006 at 6:42:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

music definitely puts me in a “buzzed” state, and I’ve used music I can’t count how many times to get through the worst of withdrawals- it seriously helped me through weeks of methadone withdrawal years ago, combined with pot.
Post ibogaine, I find I’m much more adventerous musically too.
Peace, love and respect.
Preston
—–
“If God dropped acid, would he see people?” ~Steven Wright

—– Original Message —– From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

Dana/cnw

From: “Jeff G” <jeffgallop@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] go go randy
Date: March 26, 2006 at 3:04:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy!
Glad your in town .Lets get together ….D has my #’s
Freak Free…not out!
Jeff

On 3/26/06, Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> wrote:
Better late than…… really really late ay Randy!!!
Go for it!!
Why would anyone here wanna stop you!!! Keep us informed.
Love ya heaps
Koiky xxx
—–Original Message—–
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com [mailto:biscuitboy714@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 3:19 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

Preston, my car didn’t get put in the lot they just moved it across the
street. 65 dollar parking ticket. You gotta love NYC. I didn’t mean to
run you off with my drama. Fact is the project that you are working on
is gonna be real cool when it is done. I was going to change the header
on this post but looking at it it seems pertinet to where I am. I’m in
the city helping Dana with the museam project and looking for a good
therapist. I have a number to call tomorrow and I will call at 9 am.
when I ffigure the guy gets in to the office. I fucked up. I know that.
I should have stopped to think long enough to know the outcome of me
not following up with therapy my Ibogaine treatment. I saw a few people
who hadn’t ever heard of Ibogaine and tried but since I was smarter
than they were (I’m sick, I know) I didn’t think I could get anything
from it. Well that’s bullshit, Ibogaine is just a little part of trying
to change your life. It is the only way to go for interupting the
addiction but there is so much more to it than that. I have issues (to
say the fuckin’ least) and Ibogaine brought them out for me to promtly
ignore. I’m gonna work on them now. I have to. This is kind of scary. I
don’t run from much but I have been running from this a long time.
Please forgive the typo’s, I’m on Dana’s hot rod……..I mean computer
and can’t use it very well. In the meantime I have written a really
cool blues tune and the music is in my head again in full force.
Clarity rules. Somebody put me in a studio. Thank God for my friends
here. I love you all. You can’t stop me. Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 01:24:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

> I recently picked up the book The Strength of
the Wolf-the Secret History of America’s War on Drugs<

by Douglas Valentine.

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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] go go randy
Date: March 26, 2006 at 1:00:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Better late than…… really really late ay Randy!!!
Go for it!!
Why would anyone here wanna stop you!!! Keep us informed.
Love ya heaps
Koiky xxx
—–Original Message—–
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com [mailto:biscuitboy714@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 3:19 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 01:24:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

I recently picked up the book The Strength of
the Wolf-the Secret History of America’s War on Drugs<

by Douglas Valentine.

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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jazz…..
Date: March 26, 2006 at 1:01:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How funny, I’ve always looked at Jazz as a form of Musical Wanking……..
hmm

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

Dana/cnw

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From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 26, 2006 at 11:35:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Luke

On 3/25/06, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

On Mar 25, 2006, at 11:16 AM, cm wrote:

Dana/cnw

From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 26, 2006 at 10:18:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, my car didn’t get put in the lot they just moved it across the street. 65 dollar parking ticket. You gotta love NYC. I didn’t mean to run you off with my drama. Fact is the project that you are working on is gonna be real cool when it is done. I was going to change the header on this post but looking at it it seems pertinet to where I am. I’m in the city helping Dana with the museam project and looking for a good therapist. I have a number to call tomorrow and I will call at 9 am. when I ffigure the guy gets in to the office. I fucked up. I know that. I should have stopped to think long enough to know the outcome of me not following up with therapy my Ibogaine treatment. I saw a few people who hadn’t ever heard of Ibogaine and tried but since I was smarter than they were (I’m sick, I know) I didn’t think I could get anything from it. Well that’s bullshit, Ibogaine is just a little part of trying to change your life. It is the only way to go for interupting the addiction but there is so much more to it than that. I have issues (to say the fuckin’ least) and Ibogaine brought them out for me to promtly ignore. I’m gonna work on them now. I have to. This is kind of scary. I don’t run from much but I have been running from this a long time. Please forgive the typo’s, I’m on Dana’s hot rod……..I mean computer and can’t use it very well. In the meantime I have written a really cool blues tune and the music is in my head again in full force. Clarity rules. Somebody put me in a studio. Thank God for my friends here. I love you all. You can’t stop me. Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 01:24:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

> I recently picked up the book The Strength of
the Wolf-the Secret History of America’s War on Drugs<

by Douglas Valentine.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it
Date: March 26, 2006 at 3:56:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Again Chi, he’s mistaken if that’s really what was said- if, as Howard made very clear, one goes back to using at the Same Levels one was using previous to taking ibogaine, the risk is high. If one takes decreased amounts, the risks are seriously decreased as well.
Peace, love and respect.
—–
“Bring us, oh Cardinal, three junkies.
Give them the wine and the wafer,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
We’ll bring three junkies also,
give them Ibogaine,
and sit with them for forty-eight hours.
At the end of the time,
you have breakfast with your junkies,
and we’ll have breakfast with ours.”
Beal/Armentano-
The Ibogaine Story:
Report on the Staten Island Project

Peace and love.
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: cm
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I dont get it

In a message dated 3/23/2006 7:30:53 A.M. Central Standard Time, iboganaut420@yahoo.com writes:
and I can now decide what I want to do, rather than be guided by habit..

oh!!!oh!!!oh!!!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!!!
Is that really possible? I can’t imagine being that way as far as narcotic opiates are concerned!
Did the Ibogaine reset your receptors totally back to pre addiction state?
Sorry, but I just have the damndest time believing that is true!
Callie

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine short report from Dutch TV
Date: March 26, 2006 at 6:19:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

look up the link then look up Ibogawortel then its easy.
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=archief.zoekopdatum&datum=24-3-2006

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 26, 2006 at 4:09:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Oh yes that reminds me, I must post him back his Velcro Gloves and
Gumboots
;o)
Kxxx

Yeah,…..good secret keeper anyway

OHhhh Jasen, BTW, Dolly the Sheep says “Hi baaaaaaabyyyyyyyy”
;o)

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 25, 2006 at 4:59:47 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Oh yes that reminds me, I must post him back his Velcro Gloves and Gumboots
;o)
Kxxx

Yeah,…..good secret keeper anyway

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Fw: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine
Date: March 25, 2006 at 11:16:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

hi ‘Preston’, i went to your link and from what i read the germans did invent it. i got my info, not a reliable source i know, from the movie sid & nancy years ago.
when they are being dosed they get this big lecture about the germans having made the shit and he didnt like seeing american kids chugging it.
so i then asked someone more on the subject and the told me it did come from the germans cos one of hitlers generals was an addict. im pretty sure the person i asked all those years ago is now sleeping upstairs. i’ll go and prod him later and find out.
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine

>and furthermore, if im not wrong the nazis came up with methadone in the >1st
place for one of hitlers generals who was an opium addict so he could go to
battle. they ended up giving it to their soldiers to get them addicted and
wouldnt give them more (leave them hanging out) till they made it to the
next town they were to strike.<

No offense, as usual, but this is not true (there are a ton of links following this essay as well as imbedded in the text, at the URL here):

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id838/pg1/index.html

m is for methadone
by Preston Peet (ptpeet@cs.com) – January 14, 2002

Temperature’s rising, fever is high, can’t see no future, can’t see no sky. My feet are so heavy, so is my head. I wish I was a baby. I wish I was dead.
Cold turkey has got me on the run. Body is aching, goose-pimple bone. Can’t see nobody. Leave me alone. My eyes are wide open, I can’t get to sleep.
One thing I’m sure of, I’m in at the deep freeze.
Cold Turkey has got me on the run. 36 hours rolling in pain, praying to someone, free me again. Oh, I’ll be a good boy, so please make me well. I’ll promise you anything, get me out of this hell!
Cold turkey has got me, oh, oh, oh, Cold turkey has got me on the run.
~ ~Cold Turkey, John Lennon/Yoko Ono (October 20, 1969)

Methadone (meth’e don’)-n.[< it’s chemical name] a synthetic drug, less habit-forming than morphine, used in treating morphine addicts.
~ ~ Webster’s New World Compact School and Office Dictionary, 1982 [revised edition]

This is pure unadulterated bullshit. Ask any methadone patient which drug is easier to kick – Heroin or Methadone – and they will tell you, quite rightly, that Methadone is the more hellish “drug” of the two.
While Methadone has no discernible high, and affects the body for longer (keeping withdrawals at bay for longer than heroin), once a person is feeling the lack of Methadone, the difference is clear. Detoxing from Methadone takes more time, a month or more at minimum, as compared to the week or two maximum for Heroin.
Patients in Methadone Maintenance Treatment (MMT) must take their medication every single day, or they get sick. Clearly, Methadone is habit-forming, although admittedly in every case, heroin habits are already formed, or a person cannot (or will not) be placed into MMT. So, ‘less habit-forming’ is semantic in the above definition, and blatantly untrue.
In 1939 two scientists working for I.G. Farben, Otto Eisleb, and O. Schaumann, at Hoechst-Am-Main, Germany, discovered an opioid analgesic which after numbering compound 8909, they named Dolantin (Pethidine). Hopes that it would be a new, non-addictive pain reliever, to take the place of Morphine, just like Diamorphine (heroin), before it, came to naught. However, because it was an extremely effective analgesic, the Germans used the drug extensively throughout War World II.
(Unless otherwise noted, facts are taken from The Methadone Briefing, edited by Andrew Preston, London: Waterbridge House, 1996).
From 1937 through the Spring and Summer of 1938, two other scientists working for I.G. Farben, Max Bockmuhl, and Gustav Ehrart, were working with similar compounds to Dolantin. Bockmuhl and Ehrart were searching for drugs with certain characteristics, such as “water soluble hypnotics (sleep inducing) substances, effective drugs to slow the gastrointestinal tract to make surgery easier, effective analgesics that were structurally dissimilar to Morphine-in the hopes that they would be non-addictive, and escape the strict controls on opiates.”
On September 11, 1941, Bockmuhl and Ehrhart filed a patent application for, and were formally credited with, the discovery of Hoechst 10820 (Polamidon), which eventually became known as Methadone.
In the Autumn of 1942, I.G. Farben handed over the drug, codenamed “Amidon”, to the German military for further testing.
The Nazis did not make any attempt to mass produce the drug, unlike Pethidine, which by 1944 was being produced at an annual rate of 1600 kg. One reason for this was given by Dr. K K Chen, an early American researcher, after the war. He said that a former employee of the I. G. Farben factory had written him, saying that the Germans had discontinued Polamidon use due to its side effects. Chen decided that the Nazis had been giving their test subject doses that were too high, causing nausea, overdose, etc.
After the war ended, the Allies divided up the spoils. I. G. Farben was in an US-occupied zone so all its “intellectual capital” (patent, trade names, and the like) came under US management. Along with the formula for Zyklon B, a nerve gas that the Nazis used in some of their extermination programs, Methadone was now an American possession.
One very common misconception is that Dolophine, one of the very first trade names given to the drug, was derived from “Adolph”, in honor of the dictator himself by the Nazis, and that in Germany it was called “Adolophine.” The fact of the matter seems to be this name was not given the drug until after the war, by the Eli-Lilly pharmaceutical company in America, which was given control of the drug.
If there was any honoring of Hitler going on, it was by the Americans who invented this urban legend. Dolophine most likely derives from the French words “dolor” (pain), and “fin” (end).
Eli-Lilly, along with other companies in the US and Great Britain, began clinical trials of Dolophine, marketing the drug as a pain killer and cough suppressant. In 1947, Isabel et al, published their findings after experimenting on both animals and humans. After giving doses of up to 200mg., four times a day, they found that there was rapid tolerance, and euphoria. They also discovered that there were a bevy of adverse side effects, such as, “signs of toxicity . . . inflammation of the skin . . . deep narcosis and . . . a general clinical appearance of illness.” Once again, just like the Nazis, the scientists were giving doses that were far too high.
Morphine addicts responded well to Dolophine, but authorities decided that it was potentially highly addictive. As reports of Dolophine addicts started coming in, thedrug was taken of the market, only to resurface in the 1960s, now known as Methadone.
Promoted by Drs. Marie Nyswynder, and Vincent Dole in the mid-1960s as the most promising method of treating heroin addiction, MMT began to receive more attention from the medical community, and gradually limited tests were begun to gauge MMT’s efficacy in treating hardcore heroin addicts. Reading through the National Institute of Health’s Consensus Development Statement, titled “Effective Medical Treatment Of Opiate Addiction”, not much, it seems, has changed. US scientists and doctors still have a lack of compassion for their “test subjects” that echoes the Nazi doctors. In the Diagnosis of Opioid Addiction section, the report states that if an addict has failed after all tests to convince the doctor he/she is really a heroin addict, the doctor can obtain further evidence by administering a “Naloxone (Narcan) challenge test to induce withdrawal symptoms.” This instantly induces withdrawals, and is what paramedics give overdose victims when trying to resuscitate them dead on the sidewalk. I’ve seen it given to a friend, and he was definitely not happy when jerking awake, sick as a dog. It is sadistic torture giving Naloxone to someone simply, to prove that they’re are an addict.
snip-

—– Original Message —– From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Move on with Ibogaine