Ibogaine List Archives – 2002-04

From: robertbosch@softhome.net
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ssris
Date: April 30, 2002 at 5:50:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 4/25/02 10:52:09 PM, robertbosch@softhome.net writes: << Hello, I understand this is a tense time or something and do not want to be  rude, but if anyone could stop fighting long enough to please answer the  simple question of where I could look up ssri’s and what problem if any I  could expect using ibogaine while on them. Or anyone has any advice I would  appreciate it.  >> Rob, Go to the ibogaine manual <www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html>.  Go to the table of contents right below the introduction and click on the discussion link.  Once in the discussion section scroll down to right after the “exclusion criteria” and you will find some discussion of ssri’s. Howard

Thank you
Rob

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibopyrine-chemistry
Date: April 30, 2002 at 5:40:17 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Could someone please translate this into english. Does this mean that something which is 200 times stronger then morphine and  n o t  addictive, is coming? Does this mean you could get really high without getting a habit?
I tried that link it doesn’t load anything.
-carrie
Winfried Gerbracht <Winfried.Gerbracht@t-online.de> wrote:

By the way, it’s a receptor at which an alkaloid, called epibatidine,
reveals (agonistically) its very potent painkilling activity
(200times more potent than morphium).
This principle affords a revolutionary new mechanism of analgesia, since
it excludes most, if not all of the side-effects of opiate-analgesia:

http://www.phc.vcu.edu/feature/epi/index2.html

I’m quite sure that the ibopyrines will fit quite well into this
receptor. So I believe to be straight on the right track. As you know
me, I could endlessly talk about receptor interactions, … it’ll be
boring for the most.

I’ll keep you informed.

Salute,
Winnie
———–
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Yahoo! Health – your guide to health and wellness

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 30, 2002 at 5:36:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How do you get thrown out of London for being a witch? I thought london was witch friendly 😉
-carrie

Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: “Nick Sandberg”
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
>Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:33:12
> >
> > What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough problems
> > without fighting one another.
> >
> > Tboz
> >
>
>Hi Tboz,
>
>That not fighting leads to peace is a popular misconception, brought about,
>imo, through people just being too scared to just say what they think, and
>so just jumping on some kind of “peace is good” bandwagon. I’ve done a few
>years of therapy type stuff post ibogaine and can simply state, with hand
>on
>heart, that Encounter Therapy, where participants just vent everything they
>want on each other – genuine, projected, whatever – is the fastest route to
>deep healing and deeper relationships. Most people I know who’ve been in
>this kind of scene would back this up. When all you do is avoid conflict
>you
>just store up loads of crap inside, fuck that shit it’s not remotely
>healthy
>and one of the main reasons people get into using substances in the first
>place.
>
>There’s no need to present some kind of united front on this list. And
>whilst it’s not the Encounter group, it’s kind of hard to maintain a
>peaceful facade when deluded motherfuckers like Carl start spouting
>ridiculously antagonistic opinions, most of which seem to try and imply he
>has the slightest concept of what’s going on with him and iboga and making
>out like the chaos of his existence is actually some vast, prepared plan,
>or
>a battle against dark forces which threaten his enlightened world crusade.
>Not an opinion shared by anyone who’s met actually met him, imho, of
>course.
>
>Come to that, whaddya mean by
>
> > but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic may have a
> > lot to do with it. Some of you are straight out of
> > psychedelic experiments gone extremely wrong, which started
> > with science and have left that far behind a long time ago.
>
>ibogaine ISN’T hallucinogenic, retard, it just puts you in contact with
>your
>issues and if you don’t like what it shows you you just can project it all
>upon the world and start believing in any kind of crap you want to avoid
>your personal reality.
>
>Hope this clears some things up. I do love everyone on this list, by the
>way, especially Carl.
>
>Nick
>

Dear Nick
I have met you in London a few times under very foggy cicumstances,and while
under the influence of ad lib amounts of scotch whisky.
Surely taking a fragment like that and extrapolating it to be my entire
being is misleading,to say the least,and to some extent I do have some
chameleon traits making it difficult for anyone to really get to know me.I
guess being persecuted by diverse police and “intelligence” agencies for
some thirty years give a man some difficult character traits,throw in a few
assassination attempts and severe physical torture while on LSD-25 (it
remains…) and yes,you might end up with being a man having a battle with
dark forces.But,of course,my suffering wasn’t authentic,the prison time I
did for cannabis was purely imaginary and the concentration camps were of
my own design…according to Nick the great knower of human character.Walk a
mile in my shoes before calling me a motherfucker…
I make Space Medicine for Drug War victims.(And Iboga IS a plant
hallucinogen,a plant of the Gods.Maybe Ibogaine isn’t.When YOU eat it.)I
build Saucers&Free Energy devices.I try to take humankind out of the prison
planet scenario that you describe in your writings.And your bittersweet love
takes me down.It’s hip to criticize…from the cozy armchair perspective
that you enjoy…
But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the real true action comes
around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something like war,something
that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more difficult.And not even your
mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your harsh language is
precisely of that kind that makes the “good folks” burn men like me at the
stakes.Yes,I was indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a
“witch”…
C.

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From: Winfried.Gerbracht@t-online.de (Winfried Gerbracht)
Subject: [ibogaine] ibopyrine-chemistry
Date: April 30, 2002 at 3:51:21 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick. Hi ‘ibogainers’ [and ibogaine-sceptics],

I want to inform you briefly about the state of my research-project.
A year ago I got the opportunity to pursue my syntheses of ibopyrines at
the ETH in Switzerland. Due to the moving of the institute I was forced
to interrupt the project halfway down.
Nevertheless, I had been able to synthesize an azepano-acyloin, which is
the direct precursor of the corresponding ibopyrine-indoles (as novel
structural analogs of ibogaine). The synthesis turned out to be even
shorter, easier and more ingenious than expected.

Yesterday I rang up Mr. Borschberg from the ETH and he promised me to
finish the synthesis this summer. Unfortunately there will be no further
chance to perform it myself.

Howard recently posted the abstract of the latest Stan Glick-paper that
focuses the attention on a special (nicotinic) receptor, which was
discovered within the last years, that may play a major role in the
anti-craving mechanism:

>…The data are consistent with the hypothesis that
antagonism at alpha3beta4 receptors is a potential mechanism
to modulate drug seeking behavior. 18-Methoxycoronaridine
apparently has greater selectivity for this site than other
agents and may be the first of a new class of synthetic agents
acting via this novel mechanism to produce a broad spectrum of
anti-addictive activity.<

By the way, it’s a receptor at which an alkaloid, called epibatidine,
reveals (agonistically) its very potent painkilling activity
(200times more potent than morphium).
This principle affords a revolutionary new mechanism of analgesia, since
it excludes most, if not all of the side-effects of opiate-analgesia:

http://www.phc.vcu.edu/feature/epi/index2.html

I’m quite sure that the ibopyrines  will fit quite well into this
receptor. So I believe to be straight on the right track. As you know
me, I could endlessly talk about receptor interactions, … it’ll be
boring for the most.

I’ll keep you informed.

Salute,
Winnie
———–

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 30, 2002 at 3:40:07 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Hattie” <epoptica@freeuk.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

on 4/29/02 6:29 PM, Nick Sandberg at sandberg@onetel.net.uk wrote:

I would entirely disagree with you Nick, sorry. In my experience ibogaine
is
hallucinogenic. I for one had 3D hallucinations, something I have never
had
on any other psychedelic, 3D objects appearing and growing out of the wall
and then disjointing and floating through the room – as real and as solid
as
you or I. As well as shapes and animals I saw 2 people float through the
room followed by a lone figure, all caped but all solid looking. I would
guess that they were there, just in a different dimension/reality existing
side by side with ours. However a psychiatrist would have definately said
I
was hallucinating.

Yes, yes, but I was just talking about The Word “hallucinogen,” which i
figure is basically a misnomer because…….

………………………..it tends to imply, (though
this may not be its strict meaning entymologically), that you “see
something
that isn’t there.” As anyone with a meaningful understanding of the
universe
will hopefully confirm, it is simply not possible to see something that
isn’t there. If you see it, it’s there. Maybe your brain isn’t usually
trained to a certain frequency, maybe your subconscious isn’t usually
opened
up in a way that it currently is, but if you see it, it’s there.

…………meaning people simply don’t have “hallucinations” and there
simply isn’t
such a thing as a “hallucinogenic” – these words are just archaic terms
created by a culture that had trouble dealing with people who don’t see
things the way they did. Things can be different now.

Many people don’t hallucinate on it and have more of a psychoanalytical
journey, emotional discovery etc. However others clearly do. It really
depends on the individual and how visually oriented they are. I know
people
who don’t hallucinate on DMT, just the way their brain chemistry is, but
doesn’t mean DMT isn’t hallucinogenic.
In my experience ibogaine is, and was actually very tryptaminic.

Read
Shulgins short text on ibogaine and you will see that it is classified as
a
tryptamine.

God, I like totally SAID that. I mean please send me more emails telling me
what I just said as though I didn’t say it, it could really help my own
“deconditioning” process. What you’re saying is the drug is
“tryptamin-esque” in that you had an lsd-like experience. Maybe for people
who’ve done more acid and dmt and stuff, that is the case, like the doorways
have already been opened. I know that for me doing mushrooms a month after
ibogaine was about a thousand times more intense than the session i’d done a
month b4. Who knows with these things?

To me at least it was not that disimilar visually from
ayahuasca, LSD or psylocibe. Just thought to call someone a retard for the
use of the word hallucinogen was a bit harsh and also pretty unfounded.
Perhaps this will start a debate though which wouldn’t be a bad thing!

I know, but regular dialogue gets boring. Obeying rigid doctrines of how
people should interract does like nothing to free the soul. I mean, what
if you could receive random hatemail through the net, giving you the
personalized totally obscene abuse for no good reason and with nothing you
could possibly do about it, like ever. It could be like the most liberating
thing
anyone could experience. After a while your whole mid-brain (the personal
subconscious, which is iboga-esque symbolically) would become re-programmed
and vast chains of associated negative thinking loops relating to personal
self-worth uprooted.

With some people, I feel it’s like the jailer knocking on the door saying
“You can go now, actually” and them being too scared to even interpret what
he’s saying.

Nick

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 29, 2002 at 8:46:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Could anyone care to enlighten me please? I am
under the
impression that ibogaine is a hallucinogen, if it
is not,
then why do so many participants describe
“tripping” while
using it.

I’ll chime in.

If you call dreams hallucinations, then ibogaine
causes them – I don’t. Ibogaine is unlike (if you can
read brain waves) hallucinations and more like REM
sleep – only you are awake. You see things in dreams,
you see things while on ibogaine (you of course may
not see anything just as you may or may not dream
while you sleep). I personally have never experienced
any other hallucinogen that is even vaguely like
ibogaine. In any case, how does someone know that what
they are “seeing” is real or not. People have quite
accurately reported events in others peoples lives
(like parents) from an ibogaine session. The event was
obviously quite real since it actually happened (3rd
dimensionally speaking of course) but was not known to
the ibonaught till the ibo session. Was the (somehow)
seeing a real event that was not in the 3rd
dimension/time/space that you appear to be in an
hallucination??? I saw my father (twice – he is quite
dead), I don’t consider that an hallucination AND to
make a point he paid a visit to my step mother shortly
after his death. What happened was she was selling the
house and the toilet came lose (again, my dad had
fixed it in the past) and she was worried about how to
fix it. Sometime in the night she heard noises but
thought nothing of it. In the morning the toilet was
VERY FIXED or do you think someone broke in the house
and fixed the toilet or the toilet hallucinated itself
into being fixed or maybe my step-mom hallucinated
herself into knowing how to fix the toiled (which she
had no clue) and fix it in the middle of the night? I
also do something called REIKI and psychic healing.
There is no way to prove it works other than people
happen to hallucinate themselves into healing – and it
works amazingly well. There is absolutely no way it is
the power of suggestion working so what then?

IMO, there is other stuff out there than solid
objects, time and space.

I think it comes down to what you believe, If you are
the type that accepts other possabilities, then maybe
ibogaine does not cause hallucinations. If you are one
of those people who need double blind scientific
explainations and nothing less, well then to you, they
are hallucinations. In fact there is still literature
that calls ibogaine an amphetamine or like cocaine  –
of course nothing could be further from the truth and
I am sure these people who used these terms have not
only no understanding of ibogaine (scientifically or
otherwise) but simply have another agenda – the term
“hallucinations” is a term that feeds their agenda and
IMO is more incorrect than correct. Not that people
don’t see stuff. Ibo is also not dissimilar to deep
meditation (though I can go much deeper with ibo much
more easily – to say the least!), I don’t know anyone
calling meditation hallucinations either – and I DO
SEE stuff while meditating, I can float, many people
can leave their body…

“participants describe “tripping” while…

Maybe it is just their lingo but ibo is one hell of a
TRIP – as in journey. IBO however is similar to
hallucinogens in that STUFF happens (or can happen)
while on its effects that is different than just
getting HIGH.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 29, 2002 at 5:45:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>By ‘true’ I mean that the person taking
it has no ability to determine what is real and what is not.<

I should expand that ‘real’ could perhaps be defined as “apparent
to others present and not on the drug.”

Let me add cocaine to this very short list here, …

Yes, now that you mention it, there are probably numerous drugs
that in sufficient quantity over a long enough time can induce
true hallucinations, including alcohol.

Bill Ross

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 29, 2002 at 5:07:02 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

By ‘true’ I mean that the person taking
it has no ability to determine what is real and what is not.<

Let me add cocaine to this very short list here, as I can vouch for the fact
that I suffered numerous hallucinations (after serious long term repeated
injecting) where I could not tell they weren’t real. Bugs, cops, voices,
people watching me, all sorts of things that I couldn’t tell if they were
real or not while under the influence.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

I agree with Hattie – any sense in which ibogaine can be
declared not an hallucinogen is too fine a point and depends
on an idiosyncratic definition of the word. It may be
interesting to discuss how it differs from other substances,
but there are plenty of experiences that put ibogaine firmly
in the camp of hallucinogens as the word is ordinarily used.
E.g. from Howard’s site:

The plasma, waxing & waning in intensity, throbbing and
morphing in form, is random. I slowly begin to gain control
and I take on various shapes at will. My outer surface is a
complex network of energy forming an intricate grid of
geometry. Fiery red, green and blue pulses form the vertices,
a psychedelic grid. …

That said, I believe the only ‘true’ hallucinogen I have
heard of is Datura. By ‘true’ I mean that the person taking
it has no ability to determine what is real and what is not.
Contrast the above with this Datura report from Erowid:

I was inside my bathroom for more than half an hour talking
to someone. I did not know who he was but I saw him every
now and again. I did not like seeing him, because he was a
very irritating fellow. Anything I did, he would do; if I
rubbed my cheek, he would do the same in a horibly exact
replica of my actions.This really pissed me off. I was
however too fast for him on certain occasions. This morning
I realised that I had been talking to the mirror.

Bill Ross

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 29, 2002 at 4:08:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I agree with Hattie – any sense in which ibogaine can be
declared not an hallucinogen is too fine a point and depends
on an idiosyncratic definition of the word. It may be
interesting to discuss how it differs from other substances,
but there are plenty of experiences that put ibogaine firmly
in the camp of hallucinogens as the word is ordinarily used.
E.g. from Howard’s site:

The plasma, waxing & waning in intensity, throbbing and
morphing in form, is random. I slowly begin to gain control
and I take on various shapes at will. My outer surface is a
complex network of energy forming an intricate grid of
geometry. Fiery red, green and blue pulses form the vertices,
a psychedelic grid. …

That said, I believe the only ‘true’ hallucinogen I have
heard of is Datura. By ‘true’ I mean that the person taking
it has no ability to determine what is real and what is not.
Contrast the above with this Datura report from Erowid:

I was inside my bathroom for more than half an hour talking
to someone. I did not know who he was but I saw him every
now and again. I did not like seeing him, because he was a
very irritating fellow. Anything I did, he would do; if I
rubbed my cheek, he would do the same in a horibly exact
replica of my actions.This really pissed me off. I was
however too fast for him on certain occasions. This morning
I realised that I had been talking to the mirror.

Bill Ross

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 29, 2002 at 3:46:26 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 4/29/02 6:29 PM, Nick Sandberg at sandberg@onetel.net.uk wrote:

I would entirely disagree with you Nick, sorry. In my experience ibogaine is
hallucinogenic. I for one had 3D hallucinations, something I have never had
on any other psychedelic, 3D objects appearing and growing out of the wall
and then disjointing and floating through the room – as real and as solid as
you or I. As well as shapes and animals I saw 2 people float through the
room followed by a lone figure, all caped but all solid looking. I would
guess that they were there, just in a different dimension/reality existing
side by side with ours. However a psychiatrist would have definately said I
was hallucinating.
Many people don’t hallucinate on it and have more of a psychoanalytical
journey, emotional discovery etc. However others clearly do. It really
depends on the individual and how visually oriented they are. I know people
who don’t hallucinate on DMT, just the way their brain chemistry is, but
doesn’t mean DMT isn’t hallucinogenic.
In my experience ibogaine is, and was actually very tryptaminic. Read
Shulgins short text on ibogaine and you will see that it is classified as a
tryptamine. To me at least it was not that disimilar visually from
ayahuasca, LSD or psylocibe. Just thought to call someone a retard for the
use of the word hallucinogen was a bit harsh and also pretty unfounded.
Perhaps this will start a debate though which wouldn’t be a bad thing!

—– Original Message —–
From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

Mr. Sandberg I don’t know any of you so I won’t delve into
armchair psychology since there are more then enough folks
already doing that. I would only like to mention that I have
never treated anyone here with anything except respect. I
don’t see how calling me a “retard” for alluding to ibogaine
being hallucinogenic, is going to further my understanding.

I call it “deconditioning.” Our drives and instincts are inherited from our
animal past and are commonly considered as being localized in the lower, or
reptilian brain. Their application is primarily mediated by the mid, or
paleo-mammalian, brain and thus deconditioning this area of our
neuroanatomy, by repeated and unwarranted use of stimuli previously assigned
a certain status, thus potentially lowers stress. Any good? No offence
intended. Nick

ps – i could call you a dickhead if you feel it might help explain the
effect better. just let me know.

Could anyone care to enlighten me please? I am under the
impression that ibogaine is a hallucinogen, if it is not,
then why do so many participants describe “tripping” while
using it.

Thank you,

Tboz

I don’t like the word “hallucinogenic” because it tends to imply, (though
this may not be its strict meaning entymologically), that you “see something
that isn’t there.” As anyone with a meaningful understanding of the universe
will hopefully confirm, it is simply not possible to see something that
isn’t there. If you see it, it’s there. Maybe your brain isn’t usually
trained to a certain frequency, maybe your subconscious isn’t usually opened
up in a way that it currently is, but if you see, it’s there.

In addition, modern explorations into the operation of the psycho-active
tryptamines, has revealed that only those with a grouping on the 3 position
of the indole ring above a certain a certain molecular weight ( I think
hydroxy but could be wrong ) facilitate so-called hallucinogenesis. Ibogaine
has, I think, a methyl on this position which may well help to account for
the considerable difference between taking it and tryptamines like lsd, dmt,
psilocybin, etc. You don’t usually get such a degree of “unitive”
experiences with ibogaine (those where the coherent individuality of sensory
interpretations is marked diminished), the drug tends to hold one in the
astral, the layer of dreams, where all our issues hang out.

any good?

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 29, 2002 at 1:29:40 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

Mr. Sandberg I don’t know any of you so I won’t delve into
armchair psychology since there are more then enough folks
already doing that. I would only like to mention that I have
never treated anyone here with anything except respect. I
don’t see how calling me a “retard” for alluding to ibogaine
being hallucinogenic, is going to further my understanding.

I call it “deconditioning.” Our drives and instincts are inherited from our
animal past and are commonly considered as being localized in the lower, or
reptilian brain. Their application is primarily mediated by the mid, or
paleo-mammalian, brain and thus deconditioning this area of our
neuroanatomy, by repeated and unwarranted use of stimuli previously assigned
a certain status, thus potentially lowers stress. Any good? No offence
intended. Nick

ps – i could call you a dickhead if you feel it might help explain the
effect better. just let me know.

Could anyone care to enlighten me please? I am under the
impression that ibogaine is a hallucinogen, if it is not,
then why do so many participants describe “tripping” while
using it.

Thank you,

Tboz

I don’t like the word “hallucinogenic” because it tends to imply, (though
this may not be its strict meaning entymologically), that you “see something
that isn’t there.” As anyone with a meaningful understanding of the universe
will hopefully confirm, it is simply not possible to see something that
isn’t there. If you see it, it’s there. Maybe your brain isn’t usually
trained to a certain frequency, maybe your subconscious isn’t usually opened
up in a way that it currently is, but if you see, it’s there.

In addition, modern explorations into the operation of the psycho-active
tryptamines, has revealed that only those with a grouping on the 3 position
of the indole ring above a certain a certain molecular weight ( I think
hydroxy but could be wrong ) facilitate so-called hallucinogenesis. Ibogaine
has, I think, a methyl on this position which may well help to account for
the considerable difference between taking it and tryptamines like lsd, dmt,
psilocybin, etc. You don’t usually get such a degree of “unitive”
experiences with ibogaine (those where the coherent individuality of sensory
interpretations is marked diminished), the drug tends to hold one in the
astral, the layer of dreams, where all our issues hang out.

any good?

Nick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Legal heroin
Date: April 29, 2002 at 7:07:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 12:55:32AM -0700], [Carla Barnes] wrote:

| Wow this has been interesting reading lately 🙂
|
| Lot of jesus too, jokingly and otherwise.
|
| I have a question which has been brought up be a very hot debate
| tonight between some friends of mine where we were talking about how
| drugs should be legal or prohibition repealed or however you want to
| phrase it. I am for legalising everything but one of my friends brought

Hmmmm…  Okay, between you, Preston, and me [I even], we appear to be
having the same series of conversations…  Although where I always wind
up at a standstill isn’t heroin, but cocaine…  The scenario being
everybody should be allowed to do whatever they want in peace, provided
that you aren’t causing harm to anyone else.  Were prohibition repealed,
this pretty much removes that factor from drug use, period.

With the possible exception of cocaine.  So how do you work that…
Cocaine is okay, so long as you don’t inject it or freebase.  Injecting
and basing is okay, as long as you don’t stay awake for more than 3 days
doing this, thus becoming Fully Fucking Psychotic, walking around tweaking
out, filled with a tapestry of hallucinations, enemies, and invisible
entities which follow you around inside your mind, causing you to act out,
in all sorts of potentially violent ways…?

Dunno…  That’s the one where there don’t appear to be any solid answers,
except looping back to the general concept that everyone is responsible
for their own actions, and if you do crazy shit while tweaking out, oh
well, it has reprecussions and consequences, ‘cuz YOU did it, not the
drugZ.  “No, look, it was a Mysterious Disease!”

| If heroin were legal like most of you seem to think it should be and
| here I’m talking mostly to let’s say Patrick, Preston, Gamma I think,
| some of the people who were junkies. I like talking with all of you and
| think each of you is a special person in different ways.
|
| If heroin were legal, would a single one of you be here right now even
| having this conversation? Would Mindvox exist, would this list exist,
| would I even know ibogaine exists because Patrick writes about it. Or
| would each one of you be sitting in a dark dirty room somewhere filled
| with syringes and staring into space? If you weren’t dead that is.

Laughing, well, like Preston I already live in rooms which are a total
mess, and often lighted with lots of shadows, but lacking actual dirt…
The problem with heroin — for me anyway — is that it just solves so many
of my problems.  One of those being severe manic depression.  I do heroin,
and that “problem” goes away completely.

Which is good, because I feel better; but not so good, because 99% of
everything I have ever accomplished which turned out to be of any lasting
value, or approaching excellence, happens during my extremely manic phases
when I’m bouncing off the walls.

When I’m not manic depressive, I lose a tremendous amount of my drive —
because being real, that’s what it feels like; being driven or possessed,
it’s far beyond “motivated.”

With heroin, I just don’t care anymore.  I can even do work that I
absolutely hate in my normal headspace, and have it make no impression
upon me whatsoever … because really, nothing much does.

So would MindVox be here, and this list…  Quite probably, no…  Because
nothing that pertains to Vox is much of a realistic business plan, it’s
more this emotional thing that all of us hafta do, partially to obtain
closure on it, partially because it’s a Cool Thing, partially because it
NEEDS to be here and exist…

Were I on heroin I wouldn’t have any of these needs or impulses.  I simply
wouldn’t care.  Should I have to…?  <shrug>  It’s hard to say.

Which is another aspect of all this we sometimes talk about.  Had we not
taken everything down in flames in a spiral of self destruction, and had
walked from .dot.bomb holding $30 million each, would I be clean right
now…  Probably not.  It’s quite likely I’d be sitting in my house in
Amsterdam, bangin’ up dope, with a couple of kilos for personal use in my
basement.

Is this right, wrong, good, bad…  I dunno.  These are dualities that I
ultimately don’t believe in.

My life would be different.

That’s about as solid as I can get right now, it’s very early and I’m in
an existential and relativistic frame of mind.  Catch me this afternoon
when I’ve spun back to zealous true believer.

| I know I’m going to be sorry, but this flashed by on one of the Mindvox
| tag lines and I have to ask. What is this??????
|
| pr0n, mp3s, w4r3z: warez.phantom.com
|
| WHAT does that connect to? What’s on it?

You should try to GUESS the PASSWORD!  Prolly, you will attain success,
and find all kinds of things which look strangely familiar.

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 5:28:33 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I
don’t see how calling me a “retard” for alluding to ibogaine
being hallucinogenic, is going to further my understanding.

Could anyone care to enlighten me please? I am under the
impression that ibogaine is a hallucinogen, if it is not,
then why do so many participants describe “tripping” while
using it.<

Hey Nick,
gotta second this: Why do so many refer to ibogaine/iboga use as
hallucinogenic? Seems like that a pretty good description, although
“hallucinogenic” could imply that the visions or insights or what have you
while on ibogaine  are somehow “not real” by that hallucination appellation.
But simply using that term for lack of a better one for the layman seems
fairly reasonable, though I can’t speak from personal experience.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

Mr. Sandberg I don’t know any of you so I won’t delve into
armchair psychology since there are more then enough folks
already doing that. I would only like to mention that I have
never treated anyone here with anything except respect. I
don’t see how calling me a “retard” for alluding to ibogaine
being hallucinogenic, is going to further my understanding.

Could anyone care to enlighten me please? I am under the
impression that ibogaine is a hallucinogen, if it is not,
then why do so many participants describe “tripping” while
using it.

Thank you,

Tboz

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:33:12

What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough
problems without fighting one another.

Tboz

Hi Tboz,

That not fighting leads to peace is a popular
misconception, brought about,
imo, through people just being too scared to just say
what they think, and
so just jumping on some kind of “peace is good”
bandwagon. I’ve done a few
years of therapy type stuff post ibogaine and can
simply state, with hand >on
heart, that Encounter Therapy, where participants just
vent everything they
want on each other – genuine, projected, whatever – is
the fastest route to
deep healing and deeper relationships. Most people I
know who’ve been in >this kind of scene would back this
up. When all you do is avoid conflict >you
just store up loads of crap inside, fuck that shit it’s
not remotely >healthy
and one of the main reasons people get into using
substances in the first >place.

There’s no need to present some kind of united front on
this list. And >whilst it’s not the Encounter group,
it’s kind of hard to maintain a >peaceful facade when
deluded motherfuckers like Carl start spouting
ridiculously antagonistic opinions, most of which seem to
try and imply he
has the slightest concept of what’s going on with him
and iboga and making
out like the chaos of his existence is actually some
vast, prepared plan, >or
a battle against dark forces which threaten his
enlightened world crusade.
Not an opinion shared by anyone who’s met actually met
him, imho, of >course.

Come to that, whaddya mean by

but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic
may have a lot to do with it. Some of you are
straight out of psychedelic experiments gone
extremely wrong, which started with science and have
left that far behind a long time ago. >
ibogaine ISN’T hallucinogenic, retard, it just puts you
in contact with >your
issues and if you don’t like what it shows you you just
can project it all
upon the world and start believing in any kind of crap
you want to avoid >your personal reality.

Hope this clears some things up. I do love everyone on
this list, by the >way, especially Carl.

Nick

Dear Nick
I have met you in London a few times under very foggy
cicumstances,and while
under the influence of ad lib amounts of scotch whisky.
Surely taking a fragment like that and extrapolating it
to be my entire being is misleading,to say the least,and
to some extent I do have some chameleon traits making it
difficult for anyone to really get to know me.I guess
being persecuted by diverse police and “intelligence”
agencies for some thirty years give a man some difficult
character traits,throw in a few
assassination attempts and severe physical torture while
on LSD-25 (it remains…) and yes,you might end up with
being a man having a battle with dark forces.But,of
course,my suffering wasn’t authentic,the prison time I
did  for cannabis was purely imaginary and the
concentration camps were of my own design…according to
Nick the great knower of human character.Walk a
mile in my shoes before calling me a motherfucker…

Human character is just the sheath, Carl. You gotta be
able to drop that stuff. ANYTHING that happens to you [or
me] in life happens because YOU WILL IT. That’s a
fundamental law of personality, a fundamental law of
existence. The universe has total justice, ALWAYS and
forever, here and now. If you can’t see that, it’s because
your mind is not sufficiently open. You can write me more
reams of nonsense to try and avoid the reality of this
statement if you wish. Or you can look at it. You can let
go of who you think you are, or you can stay identified
with the whining voice inside. You’re not your past, Carl.
You need to let go of this shit. There will NEVER be an
excuse big enough for you to carry on the way you are.
Space and time weren’t created for excuse-makers, man. You
can argue away and stay where you are, or you can listen
and move on. Up to you.
Nick

I make Space Medicine for Drug War victims.(And Iboga IS
a plant hallucinogen,a plant of the Gods.Maybe Ibogaine
isn’t.When YOU eat it.)I build Saucers&Free Energy
devices.I try to take humankind out of the prison
planet scenario that you describe in your writings.And
your bittersweet love
takes me down.It’s hip to criticize…from the cozy
armchair perspective that you enjoy…
But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the
real true action comes
around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something
like war,something
that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more
difficult.And not even your
mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your
harsh language is precisely of that kind that makes the
“good folks” burn men like me at the stakes.Yes,I was
indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a

“witch”… C. >

_____________________________________________________________________
// free anonymous email || forums \\ subZINE || anonymous browsing
subDIMENSION — http://www.subdimension.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 5:02:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/28/02 4:52:56 PM, tboz@subdimension.com writes:

Could anyone care to enlighten me please? I am under the
impression that ibogaine is a hallucinogen, if it is not,
then why do so many participants describe “tripping” while
using it.

In most of the scientific literature ibogaine is described as an hallucinogen
though its effects are in the opinion of most persons quite distinct from the
common hallucinogens such as lsd, psilocybin or mescaline.

Setting aside ibogaine’s ability to eliminate narcotic withdrawal most
persons value its ability to release repressed memories during a waking
dreamlike state.  This effect may precipitate a state similar to one reached
after years of psychotherapy or analysis.

This is not to say that ibogaine may not cause open eyed hallucinations some
of which can be quite dramatic.

Howard

From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 6:03:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t mind all kinds of different views or opinions, but
if the two of you plan on generating another 50 messages of
personal insults, could you please just meet and punch each
other instead?

I know i don’t have to read the messages, I can unsubscribe,
but I enjoy this list and even the stranger messages are
fun. But I really don’t need to read 50 messages each of
which is a minimum of 10 paragraphs long about who is a
witch, who is a alcoholic, who should be burnt at the stake.

I could skip them, but then both of you usually say
something very interesting somewhere in the middle. I’d
prefer to read that something interesting without all the
rest.

Tboz

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the
real true action comes
around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something
like war,something
that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more
difficult.And not even your
mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your
harsh language is precisely of that kind that makes the
“good folks” burn men like me at the stakes.Yes,I was
indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a

“witch”… C. >

Look, Carl, this is too much. I don’t care what you say
about me but claiming to have been thrown out of London
for being a witch?! Like when, which century are we
talking about here? Are you sure it wasn’t just for
alcoholism and vagrancy? And what’s wrong with being burnt
anyway? What the body and mind revile the soul delights
in. Pretty rare for witches to be reincarnated in the
boring old physical, I can assure you. Being burnt alive
clears out so many issues there’s not likely to be enough
charge left in the emotional body for it to come back to
this dense, vibratory level. Burning’s fucking great, man.

Nick

PS – living in a commune in dorset, these days, just 4 the
record. london wasn’t bourgeois enough for me.

_____________________________________________________________________
// free anonymous email || forums \\ subZINE || anonymous browsing
subDIMENSION — http://www.subdimension.com

From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 5:54:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mr. Sandberg I don’t know any of you so I won’t delve into
armchair psychology since there are more then enough folks
already doing that. I would only like to mention that I have
never treated anyone here with anything except respect. I
don’t see how calling me a “retard” for alluding to ibogaine
being hallucinogenic, is going to further my understanding.

Could anyone care to enlighten me please? I am under the
impression that ibogaine is a hallucinogen, if it is not,
then why do so many participants describe “tripping” while
using it.

Thank you,

Tboz

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:33:12

What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough
problems without fighting one another.

Tboz

Hi Tboz,

That not fighting leads to peace is a popular
misconception, brought about,
imo, through people just being too scared to just say
what they think, and
so just jumping on some kind of “peace is good”
bandwagon. I’ve done a few
years of therapy type stuff post ibogaine and can
simply state, with hand >on
heart, that Encounter Therapy, where participants just
vent everything they
want on each other – genuine, projected, whatever – is
the fastest route to
deep healing and deeper relationships. Most people I
know who’ve been in >this kind of scene would back this
up. When all you do is avoid conflict >you
just store up loads of crap inside, fuck that shit it’s
not remotely >healthy
and one of the main reasons people get into using
substances in the first >place.

There’s no need to present some kind of united front on
this list. And >whilst it’s not the Encounter group,
it’s kind of hard to maintain a >peaceful facade when
deluded motherfuckers like Carl start spouting
ridiculously antagonistic opinions, most of which seem to
try and imply he
has the slightest concept of what’s going on with him
and iboga and making
out like the chaos of his existence is actually some
vast, prepared plan, >or
a battle against dark forces which threaten his
enlightened world crusade.
Not an opinion shared by anyone who’s met actually met
him, imho, of >course.

Come to that, whaddya mean by

but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic
may have a lot to do with it. Some of you are
straight out of psychedelic experiments gone
extremely wrong, which started with science and have
left that far behind a long time ago. >
ibogaine ISN’T hallucinogenic, retard, it just puts you
in contact with >your
issues and if you don’t like what it shows you you just
can project it all
upon the world and start believing in any kind of crap
you want to avoid >your personal reality.

Hope this clears some things up. I do love everyone on
this list, by the >way, especially Carl.

Nick

Dear Nick
I have met you in London a few times under very foggy
cicumstances,and while
under the influence of ad lib amounts of scotch whisky.
Surely taking a fragment like that and extrapolating it
to be my entire being is misleading,to say the least,and
to some extent I do have some chameleon traits making it
difficult for anyone to really get to know me.I guess
being persecuted by diverse police and “intelligence”
agencies for some thirty years give a man some difficult
character traits,throw in a few
assassination attempts and severe physical torture while
on LSD-25 (it remains…) and yes,you might end up with
being a man having a battle with dark forces.But,of
course,my suffering wasn’t authentic,the prison time I
did  for cannabis was purely imaginary and the
concentration camps were of my own design…according to
Nick the great knower of human character.Walk a
mile in my shoes before calling me a motherfucker…

Human character is just the sheath, Carl. You gotta be
able to drop that stuff. ANYTHING that happens to you [or
me] in life happens because YOU WILL IT. That’s a
fundamental law of personality, a fundamental law of
existence. The universe has total justice, ALWAYS and
forever, here and now. If you can’t see that, it’s because
your mind is not sufficiently open. You can write me more
reams of nonsense to try and avoid the reality of this
statement if you wish. Or you can look at it. You can let
go of who you think you are, or you can stay identified
with the whining voice inside. You’re not your past, Carl.
You need to let go of this shit. There will NEVER be an
excuse big enough for you to carry on the way you are.
Space and time weren’t created for excuse-makers, man. You
can argue away and stay where you are, or you can listen
and move on. Up to you.
Nick

I make Space Medicine for Drug War victims.(And Iboga IS
a plant hallucinogen,a plant of the Gods.Maybe Ibogaine
isn’t.When YOU eat it.)I build Saucers&Free Energy
devices.I try to take humankind out of the prison
planet scenario that you describe in your writings.And
your bittersweet love
takes me down.It’s hip to criticize…from the cozy
armchair perspective that you enjoy…
But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the
real true action comes
around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something
like war,something
that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more
difficult.And not even your
mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your
harsh language is precisely of that kind that makes the
“good folks” burn men like me at the stakes.Yes,I was
indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a

“witch”… C. >

_____________________________________________________________________
// free anonymous email || forums \\ subZINE || anonymous browsing
subDIMENSION — http://www.subdimension.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Legal heroin
Date: April 28, 2002 at 11:37:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If heroin were legal, would a single one of you be here right now even
having this conversation? Would Mindvox exist, would this list exist, would
I even know ibogaine exists because Patrick writes about it. Or would each
one of you be sitting in a dark dirty room somewhere filled with syringes
and staring into space? If you weren’t dead that is.<

Good golly Carla B! If heroin were legal, why in the heck would I, (as I can
only really speak for myself) be sitting in dark dirty rooms somewhere to do
my heroin? He-he, come to think of it, I sit here in a fairly messy, though
not really dirty, room almost all day every day WITHOUT doing heroin. While
doing heroin, I almost NEVER even got to go inside, unless it were a
McDonald’s bathroom, or the one at Tompkin’s Square, or that stairwell on
Ave. A and 2nd St.
Funny though you should mention having a debate with friends last night,
as I too, though the night before, seemed to have had a very similar
conversation with a doctor friend of my girlfriend’s, who could see my
points about removing power from the cartels and all that, but didn’t buy
the “most people if given the time and space grow out of their abuse
patterns.” I got a “come on Preston, do you really believe that?” reply,
which is most funny, as I say the same thing to people promoting the stupid
war. But actually, her main hangup over legalization was cocaine, not even
heroin.
She actually had me at a loss for an answer to the cocaine question,
(imagine that) beyond the “what right does someone have to tell others what
drugs they can/can’t do/we’ve got enough laws on the books to handle real
crimes” stock responce.
But, let’s say heroin were legal. (sigh, what a dream, lol). I hesitate
to use the word “relapse” as that brings up all sorts of horrid 12-step
connotations, but about a year ago, I went out and bought a couple bags, and
wound up flushing them down the toilet without opening them, (after taping
them inside my copy of Alfred McCoy’s “The Politics of Heroin” overnight to
do the next day). So, I tried again about a month later, poking those old
reflexes and buttons trying to see/remind/remember just what the allure was.
I bought a couple more bags, shot half of one sitting in an old spot I used
to shoot in over by the kid’s pool in Tomkin’s Square, then shot the other
half of that bag when I got home, and threw the other one, along with a
second unopened rig, out my window into the unenterable pit between my
building and the one next door. I still, even a year later, will catch
myself trying to see that rig, but I threw it into not only an unenterable
spot, I can’t even see the damn thing where it sits still I assume with a
full, unopened bag of dope taped to it. (Rained on now though, so I’m only
dreaming when looking out the window.)
It wasn’t a hell of a lot of fun, but then, I’d bought street dope. What
was in it? Did I give myself too much? Too little? I threw up, got that
killer headache, (cotton? Dope hangover? Don’t know), didn’t want to do
much. But, were I able to do it every day, at measured doses, I imagine it
would be a lot like, uh, confession time here I suppose- I do get and use a
prescription for dilaudid, (one that really isn’t ENOUGH-LOL, doesn’t THAT
sound familiar? but due to past history, my doctor is hesitant, no, she’s
adamant she won’t prescribe more, prefering I suffer the still present pain
like a man rather than risk….ADDICTION) due to serious pain I live with at
ALL TIMES, resulting from an old car accident that removed lots of insides,
which means….I still use opiates, though THESE ARE LEGAL, I don’t get
wasted, and I pump out work all day every day. I will even on occasion go
out and buy myself a bunch of those dried poppy bulbs, (though I’ll not say
where as I’d hate to have DEA show up at the flower shop to tell them they
can’t sell them anymore), and make myself some poppy/red zinger tea. Don’t
do a lot of staring off into space, unless it while trying to come up with
the next sentence while writing.;-)) I do get some pain relief, I do get a
teeny bit buzzed, (sometimes), I’m not strung out and acting like a skeevy
criminal, and I’m happy.
So, am I evil? Am I a waste of life? Is my thinking and writing any less
valid? Do my thoughts mean less than those of people who only drink alcohol,
or take nicotine, or Prozac for crying out loud? (This exasperation is in no
way directed towards you Carla, you’ve asked a great question-it’s directed
towards the whole prohibition/this drug bad/this drug good mind-set.)
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 3:55 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Legal heroin

Wow this has been interesting reading lately 🙂

Lot of jesus too, jokingly and otherwise.

I have a question which has been brought up be a very hot debate tonight
between some friends of mine where we were talking about how drugs should be
legal or prohibition repealed or however you want to phrase it. I am for
legalising everything but one of my friends brought up a interesting point,
she’s reading the list too, Hi Sabrina!

If heroin were legal like most of you seem to think it should be and here
I’m talking mostly to let’s say Patrick, Preston, Gamma I think, some of the
people who were junkies. I like talking with all of you and think each of
you is a special person in different ways.

If heroin were legal, would a single one of you be here right now even
having this conversation? Would Mindvox exist, would this list exist, would
I even know ibogaine exists because Patrick writes about it. Or would each
one of you be sitting in a dark dirty room somewhere filled with syringes
and staring into space? If you weren’t dead that is.

It makes me sad to think it would be the last part. Would it? This is
something I’m thinking about not a declaration I’m making. If heroin were
legal would any of you be doing anything except heroin?

I know I’m going to be sorry, but this flashed by on one of the Mindvox
tag lines and I have to ask. What is this??????

pr0n, mp3s, w4r3z: warez.phantom.com

WHAT does that connect to? What’s on it?

Carla B

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From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 6:39:23 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 09:48:20 +0100

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

>
>
>
> >From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
> >Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:33:12
> > >
> > > What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough problems
> > > without fighting one another.
> > >
> > > Tboz
> > >
> >
> >Hi Tboz,
> >
> >That not fighting leads to peace is a popular misconception, brought
about,
> >imo, through people just being too scared to just say what they think,
and
> >so just jumping on some kind of “peace is good” bandwagon. I’ve done a
few
> >years of therapy type stuff post ibogaine and can simply state, with hand
> >on
> >heart, that Encounter Therapy, where participants just vent everything
they
> >want on each other – genuine, projected, whatever – is the fastest route
to
> >deep healing and deeper relationships. Most people I know who’ve been in
> >this kind of scene would back this up. When all you do is avoid conflict
> >you
> >just store up loads of crap inside, fuck that shit it’s not remotely
> >healthy
> >and one of the main reasons people get into using substances in the first
> >place.
> >
> >There’s no need to present some kind of united front on this list. And
> >whilst it’s not the Encounter group, it’s kind of hard to maintain a
> >peaceful facade when deluded motherfuckers like Carl start spouting
> >ridiculously antagonistic opinions, most of which seem to try and imply
he
> >has the slightest concept of what’s going on with him and iboga and
making
> >out like the chaos of his existence is actually some vast, prepared plan,
> >or
> >a battle against dark forces which threaten his enlightened world
crusade.
> >Not an opinion shared by anyone who’s met actually met him, imho, of
> >course.
> >
> >Come to that, whaddya mean by
> >
> > > but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic may have a
> > > lot to do with it. Some of you are straight out of
> > > psychedelic experiments gone extremely wrong, which started
> > > with science and have left that far behind a long time ago.
> >
> >ibogaine ISN’T hallucinogenic, retard, it just puts you in contact with
> >your
> >issues and if you don’t like what it shows you you just can project it
all
> >upon the world and start believing in any kind of crap you want to avoid
> >your personal reality.
> >
> >Hope this clears some things up. I do love everyone on this list, by the
> >way, especially Carl.
> >
> >Nick
> >
>
> Dear Nick
> I have met you in London a few times under very foggy cicumstances,and
while
> under the influence of ad lib amounts of scotch whisky.
> Surely taking a fragment like that and extrapolating it to be my entire
> being is misleading,to say the least,and to some extent I do have some
> chameleon traits making it difficult for anyone to really get to know me.I
> guess being persecuted by diverse police and “intelligence” agencies for
> some thirty years give a man some difficult character traits,throw in a
few
> assassination attempts and severe physical torture while on LSD-25 (it
> remains…) and yes,you might end up with being a man having a battle with
> dark forces.But,of course,my suffering wasn’t authentic,the prison time I
> did  for cannabis was purely imaginary and the concentration camps were of
> my own design…according to Nick the great knower of human character.Walk
a
> mile in my shoes before calling me a motherfucker…

Human character is just the sheath, Carl. You gotta be able to drop that
stuff. ANYTHING that happens to you [or me] in life happens because YOU WILL
IT. That’s a fundamental law of personality, a fundamental law of existence.
The universe has total justice, ALWAYS and forever, here and now. If you
can’t see that, it’s because your mind is not sufficiently open. You can
write me more reams of nonsense to try and avoid the reality of this
statement if you wish. Or you can look at it. You can let go of who you
think you are, or you can stay identified with the whining voice inside.
You’re not your past, Carl. You need to let go of this shit. There will
NEVER be an excuse big enough for you to carry on the way you are. Space and
time weren’t created for excuse-makers, man. You can argue away and stay
where you are, or you can listen and move on. Up to you.

Nick

Dear Nick
Character is destiny.The universe is not geared towards justice or goodness.Anything can happen.The freedom that you enjoy has been forged by countless generations of courageous individuals who sacrificed their personal comforts because they knew that the decisive action  necessary for the survival of the many was far more important than the survival of their own.That is what is called altruism,and it is the antidote to egotism.And I am not whining and I am not the trembling kind.I stand up for what I do believe and I am prepared to be shot down.Anytime and any day,and I have absolutely nothing left to lose in this world.Therefore I can “afford” to speak the truth regardless of the consequences,and so I am an extremely priviliged man indeed,and my privilege is not based on or dependent upon taking anything away from my neighbour,and whatever I give away only makes me richer and richer every day.
Crusade…sure looks like Jerusalem could use a good crusade, considering the present mess,but the weapons needed would indeed involve something quite otherworldly,or at least something totally unpredictable and completely unexpected…Jesus saves,Moses invests
and Mohammed robs the bank to feed the masses.But who can eat gold?Hungry freaks,daddy…
The best nation is the resignation,and the bloodshed in the Holy Land
could only be annihilated by some mind-blowing event of the Spirit.
And the voice inside…I am not carried away by the affairs of this world to such an extent that I  muffle that little voice inside…
it is not whining,it is whispering to me not to use my escape route,but to stay around until everyone has that option,until everyone is free…
Just for raising a question about how to make Iboga work so that we don’t have disappointed clients I have earned the wrath of some self-styled psychopomps who grew up in the footsteps of the Great…
I’m off this list,but anyone may write to me at my e-mail address…
Blessed be,Carl W.

> I make Space Medicine for Drug War victims.(And Iboga IS a plant
> hallucinogen,a plant of the Gods.Maybe Ibogaine isn’t.When YOU eat it.)I
> build Saucers&Free Energy devices.I try to take humankind out of the
prison
> planet scenario that you describe in your writings.And your bittersweet
love
> takes me down.It’s hip to criticize…from the cozy armchair perspective
> that you enjoy…
> But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the real true action
comes
> around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something like
war,something
> that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more difficult.And not even
your
> mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your harsh language is
> precisely of that kind that makes the “good folks” burn men like me at the
> stakes.Yes,I was indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a
> “witch”…
>                                                     C.
>

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 5:59:15 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the real true action
comes
around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something like
war,something
that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more difficult.And not even
your
mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your harsh language is
precisely of that kind that makes the “good folks” burn men like me at the
stakes.Yes,I was indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a
“witch”…
C.

Look, Carl, this is too much. I don’t care what you say about me but
claiming to have been thrown out of London for being a witch?! Like when,
which century are we talking about here? Are you sure it wasn’t just for
alcoholism and vagrancy? And what’s wrong with being burnt anyway? What the
body and mind revile the soul delights in. Pretty rare for witches to be
reincarnated in the boring old physical, I can assure you. Being burnt alive
clears out so many issues there’s not likely to be enough charge left in the
emotional body for it to come back to this dense, vibratory level. Burning’s
fucking great, man.

Nick

PS – living in a commune in dorset, these days, just 4 the record. london
wasn’t bourgeois enough for me.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 4:48:20 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:33:12

What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough problems
without fighting one another.

Tboz

Hi Tboz,

That not fighting leads to peace is a popular misconception, brought
about,
imo, through people just being too scared to just say what they think,
and
so just jumping on some kind of “peace is good” bandwagon. I’ve done a
few
years of therapy type stuff post ibogaine and can simply state, with hand
on
heart, that Encounter Therapy, where participants just vent everything
they
want on each other – genuine, projected, whatever – is the fastest route
to
deep healing and deeper relationships. Most people I know who’ve been in
this kind of scene would back this up. When all you do is avoid conflict
you
just store up loads of crap inside, fuck that shit it’s not remotely
healthy
and one of the main reasons people get into using substances in the first
place.

There’s no need to present some kind of united front on this list. And
whilst it’s not the Encounter group, it’s kind of hard to maintain a
peaceful facade when deluded motherfuckers like Carl start spouting
ridiculously antagonistic opinions, most of which seem to try and imply
he
has the slightest concept of what’s going on with him and iboga and
making
out like the chaos of his existence is actually some vast, prepared plan,
or
a battle against dark forces which threaten his enlightened world
crusade.
Not an opinion shared by anyone who’s met actually met him, imho, of
course.

Come to that, whaddya mean by

but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic may have a
lot to do with it. Some of you are straight out of
psychedelic experiments gone extremely wrong, which started
with science and have left that far behind a long time ago.

ibogaine ISN’T hallucinogenic, retard, it just puts you in contact with
your
issues and if you don’t like what it shows you you just can project it
all
upon the world and start believing in any kind of crap you want to avoid
your personal reality.

Hope this clears some things up. I do love everyone on this list, by the
way, especially Carl.

Nick

Dear Nick
I have met you in London a few times under very foggy cicumstances,and
while
under the influence of ad lib amounts of scotch whisky.
Surely taking a fragment like that and extrapolating it to be my entire
being is misleading,to say the least,and to some extent I do have some
chameleon traits making it difficult for anyone to really get to know me.I
guess being persecuted by diverse police and “intelligence” agencies for
some thirty years give a man some difficult character traits,throw in a
few
assassination attempts and severe physical torture while on LSD-25 (it
remains…) and yes,you might end up with being a man having a battle with
dark forces.But,of course,my suffering wasn’t authentic,the prison time I
did  for cannabis was purely imaginary and the concentration camps were of
my own design…according to Nick the great knower of human character.Walk
a
mile in my shoes before calling me a motherfucker…

Human character is just the sheath, Carl. You gotta be able to drop that
stuff. ANYTHING that happens to you [or me] in life happens because YOU WILL
IT. That’s a fundamental law of personality, a fundamental law of existence.
The universe has total justice, ALWAYS and forever, here and now. If you
can’t see that, it’s because your mind is not sufficiently open. You can
write me more reams of nonsense to try and avoid the reality of this
statement if you wish. Or you can look at it. You can let go of who you
think you are, or you can stay identified with the whining voice inside.
You’re not your past, Carl. You need to let go of this shit. There will
NEVER be an excuse big enough for you to carry on the way you are. Space and
time weren’t created for excuse-makers, man. You can argue away and stay
where you are, or you can listen and move on. Up to you.

Nick

I make Space Medicine for Drug War victims.(And Iboga IS a plant
hallucinogen,a plant of the Gods.Maybe Ibogaine isn’t.When YOU eat it.)I
build Saucers&Free Energy devices.I try to take humankind out of the
prison
planet scenario that you describe in your writings.And your bittersweet
love
takes me down.It’s hip to criticize…from the cozy armchair perspective
that you enjoy…
But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the real true action
comes
around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something like
war,something
that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more difficult.And not even
your
mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your harsh language is
precisely of that kind that makes the “good folks” burn men like me at the
stakes.Yes,I was indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a
“witch”…
C.

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 28, 2002 at 4:03:28 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:33:12
>
> What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough problems
> without fighting one another.
>
> Tboz
>

Hi Tboz,

That not fighting leads to peace is a popular misconception, brought about,
imo, through people just being too scared to just say what they think, and
so just jumping on some kind of “peace is good” bandwagon. I’ve done a few
years of therapy type stuff post ibogaine and can simply state, with hand on
heart, that Encounter Therapy, where participants just vent everything they
want on each other – genuine, projected, whatever – is the fastest route to
deep healing and deeper relationships. Most people I know who’ve been in
this kind of scene would back this up. When all you do is avoid conflict you
just store up loads of crap inside, fuck that shit it’s not remotely healthy
and one of the main reasons people get into using substances in the first
place.

There’s no need to present some kind of united front on this list. And
whilst it’s not the Encounter group, it’s kind of hard to maintain a
peaceful facade when deluded motherfuckers like Carl start spouting
ridiculously antagonistic opinions, most of which seem to try and imply he
has the slightest concept of what’s going on with him and iboga and making
out like the chaos of his existence is actually some vast, prepared plan, or
a battle against dark forces which threaten his enlightened world crusade.
Not an opinion shared by anyone who’s met actually met him, imho, of course.

Come to that, whaddya mean by

> but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic may have a
> lot to do with it. Some of you are straight out of
> psychedelic experiments gone extremely wrong, which started
> with science and have left that far behind a long time ago.

ibogaine ISN’T hallucinogenic, retard, it just puts you in contact with your
issues and if you don’t like what it shows you you just can project it all
upon the world and start believing in any kind of crap you want to avoid
your personal reality.

Hope this clears some things up. I do love everyone on this list, by the
way, especially Carl.

Nick

Dear Nick
I have met you in London a few times under very foggy cicumstances,and while under the influence of ad lib amounts of scotch whisky.
Surely taking a fragment like that and extrapolating it to be my entire being is misleading,to say the least,and to some extent I do have some chameleon traits making it difficult for anyone to really get to know me.I guess being persecuted by diverse police and “intelligence” agencies for some thirty years give a man some difficult character traits,throw in a few assassination attempts and severe physical torture while on LSD-25 (it remains…) and yes,you might end up with being a man having a battle with dark forces.But,of course,my suffering wasn’t authentic,the prison time I did  for cannabis was purely imaginary and the concentration camps were of my own design…according to Nick the great knower of human character.Walk a mile in my shoes before calling me a motherfucker…
I make Space Medicine for Drug War victims.(And Iboga IS a plant hallucinogen,a plant of the Gods.Maybe Ibogaine isn’t.When YOU eat it.)I build Saucers&Free Energy devices.I try to take humankind out of the prison planet scenario that you describe in your writings.And your bittersweet love takes me down.It’s hip to criticize…from the cozy armchair perspective that you enjoy…
But you don’t have the balls to be on stage when the real true action comes around.Amateur!And peace IS good,but it is not something like war,something that any idiot can bring about.Peace is far more difficult.And not even your mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth.And your harsh language is precisely of that kind that makes the “good folks” burn men like me at the stakes.Yes,I was indeed thrown out of your bourgeois London for being a “witch”…
C.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Legal heroin
Date: April 28, 2002 at 3:55:32 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow this has been interesting reading lately 🙂
Lot of jesus too, jokingly and otherwise.
I have a question which has been brought up be a very hot debate tonight between some friends of mine where we were talking about how drugs should be legal or prohibition repealed or however you want to phrase it. I am for legalising everything but one of my friends brought up a interesting point, she’s reading the list too, Hi Sabrina!
If heroin were legal like most of you seem to think it should be and here I’m talking mostly to let’s say Patrick, Preston, Gamma I think, some of the people who were junkies. I like talking with all of you and think each of you is a special person in different ways.
If heroin were legal, would a single one of you be here right now even having this conversation? Would Mindvox exist, would this list exist, would I even know ibogaine exists because Patrick writes about it. Or would each one of you be sitting in a dark dirty room somewhere filled with syringes and staring into space? If you weren’t dead that is.
It makes me sad to think it would be the last part. Would it? This is something I’m thinking about not a declaration I’m making. If heroin were legal would any of you be doing anything except heroin?
I know I’m going to be sorry, but this flashed by on one of the Mindvox tag lines and I have to ask. What is this??????
pr0n, mp3s, w4r3z: warez.phantom.com
WHAT does that connect to? What’s on it?
Carla B
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – your guide to health and wellness

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts READ HERE IF YOU WANT THE REAL ANSWER!
Date: April 28, 2002 at 12:32:03 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The True and Lasting Answer to Addiction is belief in God/Jehovah/ Yaweh
aka Your Higher Power-and know that Jesus the Christ, died for our
sins-period. <

Glad this was what worked for you, and I thank whatever powers that be that
it wasn’t what worked for me.;-)))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “lhutcherson” <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts READ HERE IF YOU WANT THE REAL ANSWER!

Re: [ibogaine] FactsI can’t say this enough- The True and Lasting Answer
to Addiction is belief in God/Jehovah/ Yaweh aka Your Higher Power-and know
that Jesus the Christ, died for our sins-period.  Call me crazy, fanatical
or whatever, but I have many, years of experience, pain and struggle,
finally culminating in VICTORY through God the Creator of Us All!

May God Bless and Keep Us All…
Linda

—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher
success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one
another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us can
possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs on  clients
for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear the results of
those that have kept a record and communication with everyone that they have
worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still
clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into
rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see things
more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again full stop.
Many of these people have had mental health problems that needed a lot more
work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not
miraculous, doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as
men, but works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more
enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and
therapy is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs
sorting through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is
an ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get
over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the
alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person
undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is dealt
with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the individual
taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you as the
facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They changed it,
they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking otherwise, I
have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take
a defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please
get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie

who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support
your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will
work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts READ HERE IF YOU WANT THE REAL ANSWER!
Date: April 28, 2002 at 2:23:52 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I can’t say this enough- The True and Lasting Answer to Addiction is belief in God/Jehovah/ Yaweh aka Your Higher Power-and know that Jesus the Christ, died for our sins-period.  Call me crazy, fanatical or whatever, but I have many, years of experience, pain and struggle, finally culminating in VICTORY through God the Creator of Us All!

May God Bless and Keep Us All…
Linda

but Ibogaine IS jesus. in bwiti, the body, the blood, the holy grail and the tree of life are one.

dana/cures not wars

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts READ HERE IF YOU WANT THE REAL ANSWER!
Date: April 27, 2002 at 8:45:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I can’t say this enough- The True and Lasting Answer to Addiction is belief in God/Jehovah/ Yaweh aka Your Higher Power-and know that Jesus the Christ, died for our sins-period.  Call me crazy, fanatical or whatever, but I have many, years of experience, pain and struggle, finally culminating in VICTORY through God the Creator of Us All!

May God Bless and Keep Us All…
Linda

—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear the results of those that have kept a record and communication with everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous, doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie

who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Why Purkinje cells die?
Date: April 27, 2002 at 5:25:26 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 01:51:03PM +0100], [Nick Sandberg] wrote:

| On this subject, I remember asking Dr Molliver, at the 1999 Ibogaine
| conference, why I was still apparently capable of walking around when I had,
| earlier that year, consumed a large quantity of iboga rootbark in the
| Cameroun, certainly well in xs of the 20mg/k dose he claimed could be
| dangerous. He explained to me, as I recall, that my continued vertical state
| would almost certainly be only temporary and could therefore expect to be in
| a wheelchair pretty soon. 2 and a half years later I’m still upright.
|
| Basically, as far as I can tell, when the US government decides it doesn’t
| like
| a drug very much, ibogaine and E being good examples, but unfortunately
| can’t find any actual harm it does people, they call up Dr
| Molliver – he gives a rat more of the stuff than it could possibly consume
| in
| a decade of constant force feeding and then autopsies it and finds damage
| to……the Purkinje cells. He publishes the results of this
| “scientific enquiry” and the media, mysteriously, jump on this great
| exposition and proclaim on their front pages that there is now “scientific
| proof” that E, or whatever, is harmful.

Yeah, this isn’t exclusive to DrUGz by any means.  Apply exactly the same
methadology to anything you happen to want to get rid of for financial of
political reasons, for instance, that Exact Scenario works just as well
when applied to: cyclamates, saccharin, sweetNlow, whatever NEW THING the
sugar lobby hates –> Okay den, let’s dump roughly 3 metric tons of it
into a rat, and see if it becomes unhappy!  It did!  It did!  It burst
into flames and Died, therefore Conclusively Demonstrating that we Hate
You and Want to Eat Your Life!

I am going to go outside and enjoy the day, I can’t read my mail or answer
anything right now.  This is not my sentence at present.  Love ya all, but
far more importantly, You have a Friend in Jesus.

Conclusive, Fully Documented Proof:

http://www.catholicshopper.com/products/inspirational_sport_statues.html

z00m,

Patrick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Why Purkinje cells die?
Date: April 27, 2002 at 8:51:03 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Why Purkinje cells die?

Christ.In plain text,some purkinje cells die off after an ibogaine
session,yes,(but they do regenerate in two or three weeks).So where is the
problem?Now I have heard that this whole thing was used by Molliver et al
to
discourage the use of Ibogaine.Scaring people with “brain damage”…where
have I seen that before? In papers on LSD,MDMA,THC etc,etc,ad nauseam.If
things were that bad,Iboga had not been used for millennia in the
Kongo.Breathing exhaust fumes for one day in a crowded city probably kills
off more brain cells than a single exposure to Ibogaine,but those findings
would not get publishing space in prestigous medical journals…
Carl

On this subject, I remember asking Dr Molliver, at the 1999 Ibogaine
conference, why I was still apparently capable of walking around when I had,
earlier that year, consumed a large quantity of iboga rootbark in the
Cameroun, certainly well in xs of the 20mg/k dose he claimed could be
dangerous. He explained to me, as I recall, that my continued vertical state
would almost certainly be only temporary and could therefore expect to be in
a wheelchair pretty soon. 2 and a half years later I’m still upright.

Basically, as far as I can tell, when the US government decides it doesn’t
like
a drug very much, ibogaine and E being good examples, but unfortunately
can’t find any actual harm it does people, they call up Dr
Molliver – he gives a rat more of the stuff than it could possibly consume
in
a decade of constant force feeding and then autopsies it and finds damage
to……the Purkinje cells. He publishes the results of this
“scientific enquiry” and the media, mysteriously, jump on this great
exposition and proclaim on their front pages that there is now “scientific
proof” that E, or whatever, is harmful.

I seem to also remember asking Dr Molliver about the thousands of Bwiti
initiates who annually take stacks of the stuff, many of whom still appear
to be walking around a good deal more vertically than many americans, and
the fact that Dr Mash
had actually autopsied a HUMAN who’d taken ibogaine and could find no
Purkinje cell damage. As I remember, he declined to provide any meaningful
answer.

Long live science.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 27, 2002 at 8:33:12 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 1:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately

To throw in my 2 cents.

I’ve been reading the ibogaine series on Heroin Times.
Without taking anything else on the net or Mindvox into
account, based solely on what he has written for that
publication, Mr. Kroupa spans the range from childish acting
out “take the 12 steps and stick them up your ass” is not a
exact quote but it’s close. To bordering on brilliant. There
is some great stuff there.

I am here to learn not to drag my personal problems all over
a list using a account which is not very anonymous, so I’ll
just say he made me interested in ibogaine. This list had
very interesting informative material a few weeks ago,
lately there is whatever this all is.

I am more confused in some areas, less in others. What
fascinates me is that there clearly are many of you who are
completely off the board, which any treatment center would
not give any hope to, who are maintaining a clean state.

I do not get the feeling there is any active attempt to dis
inform. As someone who is outside whatever struggles you all
face with each other I would say that I don’t understand any
of what you’re fighting about. I won’t use the word crazy,
but let me say that most of you are not on the same page as
the rest of addiction treatment. I don’t think this is bad,
but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic may have a
lot to do with it. Some of you are straight out of
psychedelic experiments gone extremely wrong, which started
with science and have left that far behind a long time ago.

I also get the feeling that if all of you were in the same
room together, you’d have one big fist fight. I’m not sure I
can pinpoint why exactly but there is a lot of tension here
between some of you.

What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough problems
without fighting one another.

Tboz

Hi Tboz,

That not fighting leads to peace is a popular misconception, brought about,
imo, through people just being too scared to just say what they think, and
so just jumping on some kind of “peace is good” bandwagon. I’ve done a few
years of therapy type stuff post ibogaine and can simply state, with hand on
heart, that Encounter Therapy, where participants just vent everything they
want on each other – genuine, projected, whatever – is the fastest route to
deep healing and deeper relationships. Most people I know who’ve been in
this kind of scene would back this up. When all you do is avoid conflict you
just store up loads of crap inside, fuck that shit it’s not remotely healthy
and one of the main reasons people get into using substances in the first
place.

There’s no need to present some kind of united front on this list. And
whilst it’s not the Encounter group, it’s kind of hard to maintain a
peaceful facade when deluded motherfuckers like Carl start spouting
ridiculously antagonistic opinions, most of which seem to try and imply he
has the slightest concept of what’s going on with him and iboga and making
out like the chaos of his existence is actually some vast, prepared plan, or
a battle against dark forces which threaten his enlightened world crusade.
Not an opinion shared by anyone who’s met actually met him, imho, of course.

Come to that, whaddya mean by

but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic may have a
lot to do with it. Some of you are straight out of
psychedelic experiments gone extremely wrong, which started
with science and have left that far behind a long time ago.

ibogaine ISN’T hallucinogenic, retard, it just puts you in contact with your
issues and if you don’t like what it shows you you just can project it all
upon the world and start believing in any kind of crap you want to avoid
your personal reality.

Hope this clears some things up. I do love everyone on this list, by the
way, especially Carl.

Nick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 11:49:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

claiming 90-100% success rates, in my opinion/experience, is not very
realistic.

I mean, how is that determined? closely tracking those treated over a 2-3 year
span? I think the short term success “could” be that high, but what happens
after the 3-6 month Ibo grace period wears off? I relapsed 2x after Ibo, does
that still mean I’m a “success case”? only in that I eventually got clean
again?

I think that Ibo exceeds the going success rate of other modalities (10%) but
being that folks are getting treated underground there is no collective data
base regarding that info, and the data being compiled in St. Kitts certainly
isn’t available.

but hey, to borrow a phrase regarding the arguments that have been flying about
this list… take what you need and leave the rest.

-Gamma

— Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com> wrote:

I don’t want to get into your personal conversations but I think some of you
are being harder on each other then you need to be. You’re a big stranger
then most, but not any more argumentative then any other group of treatment
professionals I’ve ever met. I’ve been to board meetings where some
participants have in a literal sense punched each other out.
Try to talk with 15 treatment experts on methadone maintenance and you’d be
surprised!
The only advice I would draw your attention to are throwing out 90% and 100%
success rates with treatment. I think a few of you pointed that out and then
went off on one another, I don’t remember who is who, because honestly I
don’t understand what you’re fighting about. But claims like that will
instantly make people stop listening to any other claims you’re making.
Considering that some of your claims are already way out there to begin with,
I might think about that if I were you.
Best wishes to all,
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote: on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at
sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher
success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one
another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us can
possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs on  clients for
two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear the results of
those that have kept a record and communication with everyone that they have
worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still
clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into
rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see things
more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again full stop.
Many of these people have had mental health problems that needed a lot more
work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous,
doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but works
for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more enjoyable or so
they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy is
needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting through.
Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an
ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get over
the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the alkaloid/plant is
in conjunction with the inner healer of the person undergoing the potential
transformation. Once we get that clear ego is dealt with. To believe anything
else is really disempowering for the individual taking the substance. If they
walk out of there saying that you as the facilitator changed their life,
something is very wrong. They changed it, they took the step. I know it is
easy to fall into thinking otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a
defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please get
over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie

who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – your guide to health and wellness

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From: The Last Hippie Activist <godschosenprophet@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] FW: All Stoners Must See
Date: April 26, 2002 at 11:07:56 PM EDT
To: tuletters@jacksonville.com, info@schmoo.co.uk, editor@wpgsun.com, Imacomposr@aol.com, sandberg@onetel.net.uk, ibogaine@mindvox.com, hunneberg@telia.com, sara119@xs4all.nl, relsimoes@hotmail.com, HSLotsof@aol.com, lesneron@ntl.sympatico.ca, donnaclee@sprynet.com, natyjuan@hotmail.com, sinchaur@sede.unr.edu.ar, cosmocamello@vivecondrogas.com, ricsala@avantel.net, foigras2002@yahoo.com.br, carl@carl-olsen.com, MMM@virtual14.invite.net
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PASS IT ALONG ITS TOO EASY…
http://home.att.net/~cosmickitty/ace.htm
Important: Frosty The Snowman and Our International Constitution
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – your guide to health and wellness

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 10:01:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t want to get into your personal conversations but I think some of you are being harder on each other then you need to be. You’re a big stranger then most, but not any more argumentative then any other group of treatment professionals I’ve ever met. I’ve been to board meetings where some participants have in a literal sense punched each other out.
Try to talk with 15 treatment experts on methadone maintenance and you’d be surprised!
The only advice I would draw your attention to are throwing out 90% and 100% success rates with treatment. I think a few of you pointed that out and then went off on one another, I don’t remember who is who, because honestly I don’t understand what you’re fighting about. But claims like that will instantly make people stop listening to any other claims you’re making. Considering that some of your claims are already way out there to begin with, I might think about that if I were you.
Best wishes to all,
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com> wrote:
on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear the results of those that have kept a record and communication with everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous, doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie

who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – your guide to health and wellness

From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] what’s been on this list lately
Date: April 26, 2002 at 8:57:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To throw in my 2 cents.

I’ve been reading the ibogaine series on Heroin Times.
Without taking anything else on the net or Mindvox into
account, based solely on what he has written for that
publication, Mr. Kroupa spans the range from childish acting
out “take the 12 steps and stick them up your ass” is not a
exact quote but it’s close. To bordering on brilliant. There
is some great stuff there.

I am here to learn not to drag my personal problems all over
a list using a account which is not very anonymous, so I’ll
just say he made me interested in ibogaine. This list had
very interesting informative material a few weeks ago,
lately there is whatever this all is.

I am more confused in some areas, less in others. What
fascinates me is that there clearly are many of you who are
completely off the board, which any treatment center would
not give any hope to, who are maintaining a clean state.

I do not get the feeling there is any active attempt to dis
inform. As someone who is outside whatever struggles you all
face with each other I would say that I don’t understand any
of what you’re fighting about. I won’t use the word crazy,
but let me say that most of you are not on the same page as
the rest of addiction treatment. I don’t think this is bad,
but I do think that ibogaine being hallucinogenic may have a
lot to do with it. Some of you are straight out of
psychedelic experiments gone extremely wrong, which started
with science and have left that far behind a long time ago.

I also get the feeling that if all of you were in the same
room together, you’d have one big fist fight. I’m not sure I
can pinpoint why exactly but there is a lot of tension here
between some of you.

What’s the problem? It looks like you have enough problems
without fighting one another.

Tboz

_____________________________________________________________________
// free anonymous email || forums \\ subZINE || anonymous browsing
subDIMENSION — http://www.subdimension.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Vengeance ? that’s human
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:44:05 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: sara119
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 10:46 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Vengeance ? that’s human

Yeah, right! I mean, totally! And if anyone disagrees then the Vengeance of the L-rd will descend upon them.

Nick

I do respect everyone religion expression ,and can’t agree with Vengeance of the Lord, because I’m Jewish not christian, Our God
is about Chessed ,mercy and kabbalistic healing ,( healing in different levels which are in the tree of life )and not about Vengeance ,
which is only in the level of schinah or yesod , which is the lawest
level of being , Goes together with greed  and egotism .

Hi Sara,

I know this ain’t the Kabbalah list, but there’s something I feel like you need to SEE*

Ateh Malkuth,
ve GEBURAH,
ve Gedulah [Chessed],
Le Olahim,
AMN

Sure you know how it goes! Mercy without Severity unbalances the Tree of Life [for the healing of all nations]. Maybe I need more Chessed and you more Geburah! . love to you. Nick

* sight = raiyah = 216 = Geburah = sometimes junkies need someone to be tough on them too!

at least he is alive and singing taking care of himself and doesn’t talk shit,

Sara

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 26, 2002 at 1:31:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Ahhh, good point, I don’t know whether he did or not, but regardless, he
still did heroin one way or the other. And it’s a drag that he had to hide,
and die in a room alone and rot for 2 weeks because his apparent drug of
choice was unseemly to some.

amen.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 1:05:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Marko
Sara is using Ibogaine hydrochloride as well as the extract,and has been doing so all the time.I have no axe to grind with you or anyone else.Some came to her after visiting other therapeutical settings that were disappointing to them,and her setting just happened to be more benign to them.So that is why I poised the question in the first place.
Are you trying to put clothes on the devil?Some come to her,and some come to you.So what?Isn’t the world big enough?Do you want a shootout?Or are you simply too proud to learn from others how to improve the scene?No one gains anything from disappointed clients,so how do we avoid that?THAT*S WHY I RAISED THE QUESTION AND FOR NO OTHER REASON.
Maybe it IS because she has a marijuana patch in her back yard…
(or maybe it was the roses)Agreed.This is ridiculous.You have stared yourself blind upon one single sentence in a flood of information.
I for one know that I am only a conduit,a messenger,a catalyst.And I am not real.The tripper is not real.But the trip is real&indestructible.
It remains.Forever.As well as every single word you throw out there…
Exposed to the entire universe for all eternity…
there is no screen. C.

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:36:09 +0200

I agree: rubbish (meaning your answer).

And I’m returning to your statement: “Why is it that Sara in the
Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her clients and others are not so
successful?” Is this not glorifying of your extract Sara is using, and her
method? Without any proof?

I’m over with this debate, it’s just waste of time.

Period.

Marko

At 17:13 26.4.2002, you wrote:
Rubbish.I never glorified anyone or anything whatsoever.I wanted an open
debate about the way to handle the stuff and how to achieve optimal
results.And we all learn from each other.That we have found the extract to
work better than HCL when it comes to Methadone withdrawals is based on
empirical scientific direct experience.Personally I don’t care who pushes
what as I don’t sell anything or get anything from what anyone does with
the stuff I made with my own hands.I am retired.I took what I had and gave
it to those who did not have,and most people still consider me a complete
fool for doing so.The world is full of suffering and sick people and there
are not enough therapists working with these things .I just don’t like
overpriced amateur assembly-line clinical approaches to drug problems.Or
to any problems for that matter.My work with the Iboga alkaloids was not
originally related to the smack problem at all.It was one of the
psychoactive plants that landed on my desk in 1981 when I worked at the
funny drugs department.It took a lot of self-experimentation and
bioassaying that would scare the living piss out of most modern humans
before we came up with something manageable and foolproof enough to give
to people in the “outside world”
and the present extract IS foolproof.Period.No lab will ever be capable of
analyzing or replicating it either.That is how we protected ourselves from
copycats.My mistake was giving it out for distribution among those whose
only incentive is profit,but it did not harm anyone anyway and no one has
died from it,despite Nick Sandberg’s earlier claims about a case in London
that has been ironed out once and for all.
When it comes to Ibogaine,one of the alkaloids found in the Iboga plant,
and what has been done with it I find it disgusting the way Howard Lotsof
has been handled and how his discoveries and patents have been twisted out
of his hands and if someone deserves to get some money out of this entire
trip it is Howard.I think that in all human endeavour there is a sharp
demarcation line between the professional and the commercial way of doing
things and that it is high time to question the bogus authorities if any
improvement is to be made in the quality of life as we know it.Nearly all
innovations and improvements threaten some business-as-usual interests and
the history of the world is full of tragical episodes about good-hearted
pioneers starving to death in the face of the well-to-do same-as-usual
guardians of redundancy.
But fortune favours the brave,and we who live on the brink of total
annihilation have nothing to lose “and when we stop and think about it,
there is nothing that we need in a world of persecution that is burning in
its greed”.
onward through the fog,Carl

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:23:42 +0200

Hi Hattie,

it’s not about who is more successful; it was about why Carl glorifies Sara
and his product, and discartes everyone else. But that is solved – I
believe ;-))

Marko

At 13:06 26.4.2002, you wrote:
on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher
success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one
another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us
can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs
on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear
the results of those that have kept a record and communication with
everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still
clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into
rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see
things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again
full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that
needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous,
doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but
works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more
enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy
is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting
through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an
ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get
over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the
alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person
undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is
dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the
individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you
as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They
changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking
otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a
defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please
get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie
who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a
treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work
for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say
who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,
But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 12:16:26 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

… I wanted an open
debate about the way to handle the stuff and how to achieve optimal
results.And we all learn from each other.That we have found the
extract to work better than HCL when it comes to Methadone withdrawals

It took a lot of self-experimentation and bioassaying that would
scare the living piss out of most modern humans before we came up with
something manageable and foolproof enough to give to people in the
“outside world” and the present extract IS foolproof.Period.No lab
will ever be capable of analyzing or replicating it either.
That is how we protected ourselves from copycats.

Carl, why not share the preparation method? Based on what you say,
it would be a shame for the supply to end with that one batch, and
if you’re retired, others would have to make it. For that matter, I
bet there’s a lot of bioextraction wisdom in general that you could
pass on.

Bill Ross

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 12:03:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry, I hit “send” button a bit too soon. I agree with the part of your e-mail concerning Howard. But do you know why is he left empty-handed? As I understand, he run out of money to protect his patents in court agains Mash.

Did YOU help him then? Any way, not neccessary with money?

PERIOD.

Marko

At 17:36 26.4.2002, you wrote:
I agree: rubbish (meaning your answer).

And I’m returning to your statement: “Why is it that Sara in the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her clients and others are not so successful?” Is this not glorifying of your extract Sara is using, and her method? Without any proof?

I’m over with this debate, it’s just waste of time.

Period.

Marko

At 17:13 26.4.2002, you wrote:
Rubbish.I never glorified anyone or anything whatsoever.I wanted an open debate about the way to handle the stuff and how to achieve optimal results.And we all learn from each other.That we have found the extract to work better than HCL when it comes to Methadone withdrawals is based on empirical scientific direct experience.Personally I don’t care who pushes what as I don’t sell anything or get anything from what anyone does with the stuff I made with my own hands.I am retired.I took what I had and gave it to those who did not have,and most people still consider me a complete fool for doing so.The world is full of suffering and sick people and there are not enough therapists working with these things .I just don’t like overpriced amateur assembly-line clinical approaches to drug problems.Or to any problems for that matter.My work with the Iboga alkaloids was not originally related to the smack problem at all.It was one of the psychoactive plants that landed on my desk in 1981 when I worked at the funny drugs department.It took a lot of self-experimentation and bioassaying that would scare the living piss out of most modern humans before we came up with something manageable and foolproof enough to give to people in the “outside world”
and the present extract IS foolproof.Period.No lab will ever be capable of analyzing or replicating it either.That is how we protected ourselves from copycats.My mistake was giving it out for distribution among those whose only incentive is profit,but it did not harm anyone anyway and no one has died from it,despite Nick Sandberg’s earlier claims about a case in London that has been ironed out once and for all.
When it comes to Ibogaine,one of the alkaloids found in the Iboga plant,
and what has been done with it I find it disgusting the way Howard Lotsof has been handled and how his discoveries and patents have been twisted out of his hands and if someone deserves to get some money out of this entire trip it is Howard.I think that in all human endeavour there is a sharp demarcation line between the professional and the commercial way of doing things and that it is high time to question the bogus authorities if any improvement is to be made in the quality of life as we know it.Nearly all innovations and improvements threaten some business-as-usual interests and the history of the world is full of tragical episodes about good-hearted pioneers starving to death in the face of the well-to-do same-as-usual guardians of redundancy.
But fortune favours the brave,and we who live on the brink of total annihilation have nothing to lose “and when we stop and think about it, there is nothing that we need in a world of persecution that is burning in its greed”.
onward through the fog,Carl

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:23:42 +0200

Hi Hattie,

it’s not about who is more successful; it was about why Carl glorifies Sara
and his product, and discartes everyone else. But that is solved – I
believe ;-))

Marko

At 13:06 26.4.2002, you wrote:
on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher
success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one
another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us
can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs
on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear
the results of those that have kept a record and communication with
everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still
clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into
rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see
things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again
full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that
needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous,
doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but
works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more
enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy
is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting
through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an
ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get
over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the
alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person
undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is
dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the
individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you
as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They
changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking
otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a
defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please
get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie
who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a
treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work
for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say
who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,
But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: response to Andre Chavez
Date: April 26, 2002 at 2:43:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
X-Originating-IP: [194.65.14.75]
From: “Rui Simžes” <relsimoes@hotmail.com>
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Bcc:
Subject: response to Andre Chavez
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:04:15 +0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Apr 2002 13:04:15.0429 (UTC)
FILETIME=[DE1E6750:01C1ED22]
Status:

Dear Mr. Andre Chavez,

I am recipient of Dana Beal’s e-mail list, and was very surprised
with your critics towards ibogaine.

I have guided several treatments in Portugal. Not everyone breaks
their addiction, but most addicts do. I have personal proof of this.

However, I do have friends for whom ibogaine did not work. I guess
it happens with any drug, even with the ones given by doctors or
hospitals.

Ibogaine is not the ONLY way for a person to end addiction. But it
is one of the most efficient solutions to achieve this.

My own wife was a heroin addict for over 7 years. She took ibogaine
and cured herself in just 22 hours! But there are plenty more
testimonials around to prove that ibogaine does work… with the
majority of people. Exceptions to the rule should not put some
people against ibogaine.

Very truly yours,

Rui Eduardo Simoes

Lisbon, Portugal

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 11:36:09 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I agree: rubbish (meaning your answer).

And I’m returning to your statement: “Why is it that Sara in the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her clients and others are not so successful?” Is this not glorifying of your extract Sara is using, and her method? Without any proof?

I’m over with this debate, it’s just waste of time.

Period.

Marko

At 17:13 26.4.2002, you wrote:
Rubbish.I never glorified anyone or anything whatsoever.I wanted an open debate about the way to handle the stuff and how to achieve optimal results.And we all learn from each other.That we have found the extract to work better than HCL when it comes to Methadone withdrawals is based on empirical scientific direct experience.Personally I don’t care who pushes what as I don’t sell anything or get anything from what anyone does with the stuff I made with my own hands.I am retired.I took what I had and gave it to those who did not have,and most people still consider me a complete fool for doing so.The world is full of suffering and sick people and there are not enough therapists working with these things .I just don’t like overpriced amateur assembly-line clinical approaches to drug problems.Or to any problems for that matter.My work with the Iboga alkaloids was not originally related to the smack problem at all.It was one of the psychoactive plants that landed on my desk in 1981 when I worked at the funny drugs department.It took a lot of self-experimentation and bioassaying that would scare the living piss out of most modern humans before we came up with something manageable and foolproof enough to give to people in the “outside world”
and the present extract IS foolproof.Period.No lab will ever be capable of analyzing or replicating it either.That is how we protected ourselves from copycats.My mistake was giving it out for distribution among those whose only incentive is profit,but it did not harm anyone anyway and no one has died from it,despite Nick Sandberg’s earlier claims about a case in London that has been ironed out once and for all.
When it comes to Ibogaine,one of the alkaloids found in the Iboga plant,
and what has been done with it I find it disgusting the way Howard Lotsof has been handled and how his discoveries and patents have been twisted out of his hands and if someone deserves to get some money out of this entire trip it is Howard.I think that in all human endeavour there is a sharp demarcation line between the professional and the commercial way of doing things and that it is high time to question the bogus authorities if any improvement is to be made in the quality of life as we know it.Nearly all innovations and improvements threaten some business-as-usual interests and the history of the world is full of tragical episodes about good-hearted pioneers starving to death in the face of the well-to-do same-as-usual guardians of redundancy.
But fortune favours the brave,and we who live on the brink of total annihilation have nothing to lose “and when we stop and think about it, there is nothing that we need in a world of persecution that is burning in its greed”.
onward through the fog,Carl

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:23:42 +0200

Hi Hattie,

it’s not about who is more successful; it was about why Carl glorifies Sara
and his product, and discartes everyone else. But that is solved – I
believe ;-))

Marko

At 13:06 26.4.2002, you wrote:
on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher
success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one
another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us
can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs
on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear
the results of those that have kept a record and communication with
everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still
clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into
rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see
things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again
full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that
needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous,
doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but
works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more
enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy
is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting
through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an
ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get
over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the
alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person
undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is
dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the
individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you
as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They
changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking
otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a
defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please
get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie
who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a
treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work
for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say
who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,
But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 11:13:05 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rubbish.I never glorified anyone or anything whatsoever.I wanted an open debate about the way to handle the stuff and how to achieve optimal results.And we all learn from each other.That we have found the extract to work better than HCL when it comes to Methadone withdrawals is based on empirical scientific direct experience.Personally I don’t care who pushes what as I don’t sell anything or get anything from what anyone does with the stuff I made with my own hands.I am retired.I took what I had and gave it to those who did not have,and most people still consider me a complete fool for doing so.The world is full of suffering and sick people and there are not enough therapists working with these things .I just don’t like overpriced amateur assembly-line clinical approaches to drug problems.Or to any problems for that matter.My work with the Iboga alkaloids was not originally related to the smack problem at all.It was one of the psychoactive plants that landed on my desk in 1981 when I worked at the funny drugs department.It took a lot of self-experimentation and bioassaying that would scare the living piss out of most modern humans before we came up with something manageable and foolproof enough to give to people in the “outside world”
and the present extract IS foolproof.Period.No lab will ever be capable of analyzing or replicating it either.That is how we protected ourselves from copycats.My mistake was giving it out for distribution among those whose only incentive is profit,but it did not harm anyone anyway and no one has died from it,despite Nick Sandberg’s earlier claims about a case in London that has been ironed out once and for all.
When it comes to Ibogaine,one of the alkaloids found in the Iboga plant,
and what has been done with it I find it disgusting the way Howard Lotsof has been handled and how his discoveries and patents have been twisted out of his hands and if someone deserves to get some money out of this entire trip it is Howard.I think that in all human endeavour there is a sharp demarcation line between the professional and the commercial way of doing things and that it is high time to question the bogus authorities if any improvement is to be made in the quality of life as we know it.Nearly all innovations and improvements threaten some business-as-usual interests and the history of the world is full of tragical episodes about good-hearted pioneers starving to death in the face of the well-to-do same-as-usual guardians of redundancy.
But fortune favours the brave,and we who live on the brink of total annihilation have nothing to lose “and when we stop and think about it, there is nothing that we need in a world of persecution that is burning in its greed”.
onward through the fog,Carl

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:23:42 +0200

Hi Hattie,

it’s not about who is more successful; it was about why Carl glorifies Sara
and his product, and discartes everyone else. But that is solved – I
believe ;-))

Marko

At 13:06 26.4.2002, you wrote:
on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher
success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one
another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us
can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs
on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear
the results of those that have kept a record and communication with
everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still
clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into
rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see
things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again
full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that
needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous,
doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but
works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more
enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy
is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting
through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an
ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get
over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the
alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person
undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is
dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the
individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you
as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They
changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking
otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a
defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please
get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie
who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a
treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work
for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say
who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,
But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “sara119” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] %Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 5:28:01 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all ,

if you do or don’t or where and when I wish you all good luck ,

I’m off this list , thank you all for being so kind and full of understanding ,

Be well and blessed ,

Sara

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 9:23:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Hattie,

it’s not about who is more successful; it was about why Carl glorifies Sara and his product, and discartes everyone else. But that is solved – I believe ;-))

Marko

At 13:06 26.4.2002, you wrote:
on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear the results of those that have kept a record and communication with everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous, doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie
who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a
treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work
for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say
who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,
But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 26, 2002 at 9:31:24 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Andre,

do you think that all of us are stupid? I’m asking this because you keep repeating same things… again and again… And are you sure your friends took Ibogaine? There’s plenty of people who sell anything – just to get money! I know of someone who was selling “diluted” Ibogaine, and his customers broke his legs…

And if something else worked for you – that’s great!! The problem is that whatever they use in hospitals usually doesn’t work. And Ibogaine does. And my data isn’t based on “several friends who paid thousands $ for Ibogaine (but they were NOT in St.Kitts) and it didn’t work” (this is not a quotation!). So, where did they get “Ibogaine”? By mail?

Marko

At 10:57 26.4.2002, you wrote:
If you  feel it is a rant and rave it is because I had a few friends who have had negative results, it did nothing but hurt there pocket. I think there are alot of other alternatives that truly do work. I’ve been using heroin for 20 years’, I finally got clean with a medical detox at a hospitol in northern Illinois. Emotionally I’m not completly fixed, that takes much more time than detoxing, I just care about the people who took ibo with no results, and I’m sorry, that makes me mad. They were just looking for help and didnt find it in ibogaine. I find it hard to stomach all the pro-ibo rheteric. So as long as there are pro-ibogainers, there will be me and my opinion, and it is just my opinion.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:08 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

—– Original Message —–
From: Carrie Rollins
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a few messages and then leave.

Why do this?

Why post it to the ibogaine list?

I figure they usually want to talk about an experience with ibogaine but are still highly unsure as to whether they really want to “own it.” A drug like ibogaine will always attempt to integrate aspects of one’s being that the ego has “disowned” through fear that if they really “were” such-and-such a person they would be in some way unnacceptable to others. This is why they started using drugs – to avoid feelings that were felt to be unnacceptable, to disown feelings – and this is what ibogaine will try and show them.

When you come round after ibo, you can either “own” what happened and begin to accept who you actually are, (as opposed to continuing with the drug-maintained front you like to show to the world), or you can continue to reject yourself and go around saying ibogaine is shite and “doesn’t work.” Andre went for Option #2 – bad choice, guy.

Nick

If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure, which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me add that person to my blocking list in email?

I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages and what it should accomplish.

-carrie

Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick

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From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:57:32 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If you  feel it is a rant and rave it is because I had a few friends who have had negative results, it did nothing but hurt there pocket. I think there are alot of other alternatives that truly do work. I’ve been using heroin for 20 years’, I finally got clean with a medical detox at a hospitol in northern Illinois. Emotionally I’m not completly fixed, that takes much more time than detoxing, I just care about the people who took ibo with no results, and I’m sorry, that makes me mad. They were just looking for help and didnt find it in ibogaine. I find it hard to stomach all the pro-ibo rheteric. So as long as there are pro-ibogainers, there will be me and my opinion, and it is just my opinion.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:08 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

—– Original Message —–
From: Carrie Rollins
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a few messages and then leave.
Why do this?
Why post it to the ibogaine list?

I figure they usually want to talk about an experience with ibogaine but are still highly unsure as to whether they really want to “own it.” A drug like ibogaine will always attempt to integrate aspects of one’s being that the ego has “disowned” through fear that if they really “were” such-and-such a person they would be in some way unnacceptable to others. This is why they started using drugs – to avoid feelings that were felt to be unnacceptable, to disown feelings – and this is what ibogaine will try and show them.
When you come round after ibo, you can either “own” what happened and begin to accept who you actually are, (as opposed to continuing with the drug-maintained front you like to show to the world), or you can continue to reject yourself and go around saying ibogaine is shite and “doesn’t work.” Andre went for Option #2 – bad choice, guy.
Nick

If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure, which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me add that person to my blocking list in email?
I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages and what it should accomplish.
-carrie
Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 26, 2002 at 8:06:27 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ahhh, good point, I don’t know whether he did or not, but regardless, he
still did heroin one way or the other. And it’s a drag that he had to hide,
and die in a room alone and rot for 2 weeks because his apparent drug of
choice was unseemly to some.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Gamma” <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine

How do you know the lead singer of Alice and Chains didn’t do Ibogaine?

-Gamma

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
But Dana,
Maybe he was happy doing heroin. Just because a person is using
heroin,
or other opiate, doesn’t necessarily mean they need, nor for that
matter
even want, treatment of any kind, not even ibogaine. For some, even
when it
occasionally kills them, find heroin and other opiates, (or any drugs
for
that matter) are precisely the thing that makes them feel whole.
Was it the heroin that killed him? Whatever he shot most probably
did
kill him, but had he been able to buy heroin legally, under strict
quality
controls, he would have known how much to use, what was in it, not had
to be
alone when doing it, not had to hide, feel like a criminal, etc.
Ibogaine mighta been good for him, but if he liked doing heroin,
had
the
money to do it, why shouldn’t he have been allowed to do so without
fear of
being criminalized, or put down for being less than human, a “junkie.”
I
really get peeved at the attitude that some drugs are cool, and others
are
just plain bad. If been reading recently about how heroin itself, in
its
pure form does NOT have deleterious effects on the body, being
remarkably
clean and human body friendly, Under currently prohibition policies,
heroin
addicts are forced to pursue outrageously inflated priced dope, fear
cops,
deal with ruthless uncaring hoods who cut their heroin with all kinds
of
shit, none of which would be the case were if simply legalized. Heroin
is no
better or worse than any other drug, except for the added bullshit,
(can I
say bullshit here, or is that bad lingo?) harms prohibition create.
When I
had a good supply and way to make the money, I was able to maintain a
SERIOUS heroin habit, (1/4 grams shots 3-5 times a day of that dope in
England one had to cut with lemon or citric powder to break down under
heat,
plus all the teenths I could get my hands on), and be productive,
creative,
and even happy.
Of course, what with prohibition, it is nearly impossible to
continue
like that for any length as a good trusted dealer will eventually get
busted.
Do you really think that all heroin addicts or users should take
ibogaine simply because you don’t like heroin? And why don’t you like
heroin? Because you’ve had to deal with junkies who have to operate
under
prohibition, who’ve had it driven into their heads, (and everyone
else’s
too) that to use heroin, they have to be a criminal, and they will
steal,
like and cheat to get it, so they naturally live up those stereotypes?
Is
that because heroin automatically makes one evil, or it is because
current
prohibition policies and societal prejudices leave an addict with
little
option?
Peace,
Preston

He said it had turned into a nightmare, or the equivalent, in some of
the press I saw. Maybe I can dig it out of MAPinc, but I’m really
busy right now.

Dana/cnw

__________________________________________________
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From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 7:48:52 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: epoptica@freeuk.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Hattie
Please read my postings to this list in their entirety.The whole works.It may take a few minutes,but just do that.I hate business.
And I have learned to live without money.The hard way.My concern was that sacred substances should not be handled by people who have no firsthand expeience of their effects.I know that we share that view and that you would never give anyone something that you had not tried on yourself first.And I love you,for the one you are and for what you’re not.
Blessed be. Carlito

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:06:07 +0100

on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher
success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one
another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us can
possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs on  clients
for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear the results of
those that have kept a record and communication with everyone that they have
worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still
clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into
rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see things
more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again full stop.
Many of these people have had mental health problems that needed a lot more
work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous,
doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but works
for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more enjoyable or
so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy
is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting
through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an
ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get
over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the
alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person
undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is dealt
with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the individual
taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you as the
facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They changed it,
they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking otherwise, I
have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a
defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please get
over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie

who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] spooked
Date: April 26, 2002 at 6:58:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Bill
I will try to get access to the Indra archives as regards amounts distributed and customer feedback,I think they owe me that since they did not give me any money since 1999,and I could take them to court if they refuse.As to Sara’s work with both HCL and extract she has every client in her computer so there will be no problems in getting her statistics.I will recommend her from now on to videotape every single client and keep the record straight.I have nothing to lose from a truthful recollection of events.I will call Hattie in England later on today and ask her to take a similar approach.I think that Marko is quite capable of doing the same with his thing,and I urge all others to join in.Your proposal is the most constructive contribution that I have read on this list so far,and I would like to have a specific list of failures (what are their names and on what streets do they live?)from Mr.Chavez or else I suggest that his postings be moderated,unless he leaves the list by his own volition.These issues are deadly serious and it behooves us all to keep the debate decent and repectful.
Carl

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] spooked
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:45:45 -0700 (PDT)

Is it just me, or is a squabble going on? If so, I don’t understand why.

One of the most interesting things to get off the list would be these
simple numbers from people administering ibogaine:

————————————————————————-

Number of people administered ibogaine: ___
Number of people still in touch: ___

Number of people administered ibogaine for opiate addiction: ___
Number of those people still in touch: ___
Number of _those_ people believed still free of opiates: ___

Ditto for cocaine/speed: ___ ___ ___

Type of iboga used: _______

Definition of “in touch:” you expect to hear from them again.

————————————————————————-

Maybe Howard could gather reports from anyone who is minded to trust him,
and pass on the overall stats?

Call me a quantitative fool, a Cartesian, even a scientist 🙂
but there is something fascinating for me in the difficulty of
getting that small list of numbers. What force or forces is
keeping us ignorant? Wouldn’t each and every person on this
list, providers included, take some interest in knowing it?

Bill Ross

_________________________________________________________________
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From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 7:06:07 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 4/30/02 11:12 PM, sara119 at sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:

I honestly can’t believe that you are all arguing about who has higher success rates. We as faciltators should all be helping and supporting one another, not bitching and certainly not exaggerating claims. None of us can possibly give a success rate unless we have been keeping tabs on  clients for two years plus. Now I would be  really interested to hear the results of those that have kept a record and communication with everyone that they have worked with over that kind of time period.
I will be honest and say that about 60% of people that see me are still clean, the others have used again, but those that have have also gone into rehab or kept trying saying that ibogaine gave them the window to see things more clearly. Some haven’t and have simply decided to use again full stop. Many of these people have had mental health problems that needed a lot more work than ibogaine could possibly do.
I don’t kid anyone about ibogaine. In my experience it is not miraculous, doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t work as well for women as men, but works for a lot more people than rehabs seem to do. It is also more enjoyable or so they all say.
I see huge potential, but strongly believe that follow up care and therapy is needed. Pandoras box is opened and all sorts of stuff needs sorting through. Some have the staying power some don’t.

I would also like to say that quibbling about who has better success is an ego thing, something we as facilitators should really be working on! Get over the notion that it is us doing something. We are not, the alkaloid/plant is in conjunction with the inner healer of the person undergoing the potential transformation. Once we get that clear ego is dealt with. To believe anything else is really disempowering for the individual taking the substance. If they walk out of there saying that you as the facilitator changed their life, something is very wrong. They changed it, they took the step. I know it is easy to fall into thinking otherwise, I have been there myself!

So lets please all work together and help each other. Carl is your take a defensive reaction to possible criticism of your product ad if so please get over that.

Respect to all of you

Hattie

who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] spooked
Date: April 26, 2002 at 5:03:24 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Man,

this is a good idea. even the Ibo world needs some stats.

from those folk in Europe claiming VERY HIGH sucess rates to those of us who
have no idea who stayed clean or not.

— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Is it just me, or is a squabble going on? If so, I don’t understand why.

One of the most interesting things to get off the list would be these
simple numbers from people administering ibogaine:

————————————————————————-

Number of people administered ibogaine: ___
Number of people still in touch: ___

Number of people administered ibogaine for opiate addiction: ___
Number of those people still in touch: ___
Number of _those_ people believed still free of opiates: ___

Ditto for cocaine/speed: ___ ___ ___

Type of iboga used: _______

Definition of “in touch:” you expect to hear from them again.

————————————————————————-

Maybe Howard could gather reports from anyone who is minded to trust him,
and pass on the overall stats?

Call me a quantitative fool, a Cartesian, even a scientist 🙂
but there is something fascinating for me in the difficulty of
getting that small list of numbers. What force or forces is
keeping us ignorant? Wouldn’t each and every person on this
list, providers included, take some interest in knowing it?

Bill Ross

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:57:32 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If you  feel it is a rant and rave it is because I had a few friends who have had negative results, it did nothing but hurt there pocket. I think there are alot of other alternatives that truly do work. I’ve been using heroin for 20 years’, I finally got clean with a medical detox at a hospitol in northern Illinois. Emotionally I’m not completly fixed, that takes much more time than detoxing, I just care about the people who took ibo with no results, and I’m sorry, that makes me mad. They were just looking for help and didnt find it in ibogaine. I find it hard to stomach all the pro-ibo rheteric. So as long as there are pro-ibogainers, there will be me and my opinion, and it is just my opinion.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:08 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

—– Original Message —–
From: Carrie Rollins
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a few messages and then leave.
Why do this?
Why post it to the ibogaine list?

I figure they usually want to talk about an experience with ibogaine but are still highly unsure as to whether they really want to “own it.” A drug like ibogaine will always attempt to integrate aspects of one’s being that the ego has “disowned” through fear that if they really “were” such-and-such a person they would be in some way unnacceptable to others. This is why they started using drugs – to avoid feelings that were felt to be unnacceptable, to disown feelings – and this is what ibogaine will try and show them.
When you come round after ibo, you can either “own” what happened and begin to accept who you actually are, (as opposed to continuing with the drug-maintained front you like to show to the world), or you can continue to reject yourself and go around saying ibogaine is shite and “doesn’t work.” Andre went for Option #2 – bad choice, guy.
Nick

If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure, which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me add that person to my blocking list in email?
I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages and what it should accomplish.
-carrie
Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:55:38 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How do you know the lead singer of Alice and Chains didn’t do Ibogaine?

-Gamma

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
But Dana,
Maybe he was happy doing heroin. Just because a person is using heroin,
or other opiate, doesn’t necessarily mean they need, nor for that matter
even want, treatment of any kind, not even ibogaine. For some, even when it
occasionally kills them, find heroin and other opiates, (or any drugs for
that matter) are precisely the thing that makes them feel whole.
Was it the heroin that killed him? Whatever he shot most probably did
kill him, but had he been able to buy heroin legally, under strict quality
controls, he would have known how much to use, what was in it, not had to be
alone when doing it, not had to hide, feel like a criminal, etc.
Ibogaine mighta been good for him, but if he liked doing heroin, had
the
money to do it, why shouldn’t he have been allowed to do so without fear of
being criminalized, or put down for being less than human, a “junkie.” I
really get peeved at the attitude that some drugs are cool, and others are
just plain bad. If been reading recently about how heroin itself, in its
pure form does NOT have deleterious effects on the body, being remarkably
clean and human body friendly, Under currently prohibition policies, heroin
addicts are forced to pursue outrageously inflated priced dope, fear cops,
deal with ruthless uncaring hoods who cut their heroin with all kinds of
shit, none of which would be the case were if simply legalized. Heroin is no
better or worse than any other drug, except for the added bullshit, (can I
say bullshit here, or is that bad lingo?) harms prohibition create. When I
had a good supply and way to make the money, I was able to maintain a
SERIOUS heroin habit, (1/4 grams shots 3-5 times a day of that dope in
England one had to cut with lemon or citric powder to break down under heat,
plus all the teenths I could get my hands on), and be productive, creative,
and even happy.
Of course, what with prohibition, it is nearly impossible to continue
like that for any length as a good trusted dealer will eventually get
busted.
Do you really think that all heroin addicts or users should take
ibogaine simply because you don’t like heroin? And why don’t you like
heroin? Because you’ve had to deal with junkies who have to operate under
prohibition, who’ve had it driven into their heads, (and everyone else’s
too) that to use heroin, they have to be a criminal, and they will steal,
like and cheat to get it, so they naturally live up those stereotypes? Is
that because heroin automatically makes one evil, or it is because current
prohibition policies and societal prejudices leave an addict with little
option?
Peace,
Preston

He said it had turned into a nightmare, or the equivalent, in some of
the press I saw. Maybe I can dig it out of MAPinc, but I’m really
busy right now.

Dana/cnw

__________________________________________________
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From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:41:13 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla I just want to say for the record, I’ve never been treated with ibogaine, and my friends who have been, have not been to St. Kitts. or spent 12,000.00 They do not have mental problems, and have never been kicked out of any treatment facility. They are just mainly junkies, who tried to quit the vicious cycle of addiction with the help of ibogaine and were completely let down in every way. I’m not bitter or angry at anyone who (thinks) they recived help with the ibo treatment. I do feel angry at the people who try and push this lie, there are many alternatives to ibogaine that are by far superior, oh and free. Andre’ Chavez
p.s. I’m not selling any product.
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:29 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:37:12PM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
| that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who
| went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like
| shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written down
| before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory
| serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to

Carl …  There is one diatribe from some disgruntled alcoholic who feels
that magic has not taken place.  I am cogent and aware that you do not
like St. Kitts, for whatever reasons you have.  For the most part this is
completely irrelevent, as you do not know anything about St. Kitts.

While I do not represent them, I am aware that for various reasons there
are a variety of persons who are no longer welcome there, and thus need to
find somewhere else to keep dosing themselves with ibogaine.  Unlike
various locations, they will not keep accepting people who have obvious
and extreme psychological disturbances, who are unlikely to be helped by
ibogaine in this regard.

People who are not welcome back, are likely to talk shit, and express
negative commentary.  C’est la’vie.

However … in general, it’s been my observation that whatever our
differences, our central belief is that ibogaine works; however you choose
to define “works.”  And there are a variety of locations on planet earth,
where those who would choose to partake of it, may avail themselves.

In general I believe this to be a GOOD THING.

I am unclear how tossing out various petty problems, and restarting the
infighting which has mostly faded over the course of the past several
years, is going to assist “our” primary goals of at the very least
promoting awareness of ibogaine.

NONE of this is directed at Sara, whom I don’t know very well, but hear
positive things about and believe to be a nice person doing what she
believes is good, to the best of her ability to do so.

Were I to do what you just did — toss out various hearsay, under the
guise of facts, I might have a few salient questions…  The “indra”
materials and what’s in them…  Well, I don’t know all facts and details
of all materials on planet earth which were originally created by you, but
I do know the lab analysis of 5 seperate lots thus far…  It isn’t
exactly inspirational…  I might ask if you’ve had success in dealing
with your own substance abuse problems…  I could question the abilities
of a “guide” who appears to be suffering psychotic breaks on a regular
basis; and how this person is going to help anyone maintain any sort of
positive state, which they themselves are not in…

But I won’t.  Because it’s all just hearsay, so why bother.

Pardon me, I’m sorry, I’m probably wrong, and have simply forgotten that
the Inner People of the Outer Planes, dropped a Transdimensional Gate in
your living room — while they were storing some left over UFO parts in
the basement — allowing you All Knowledge of All Things, on This Plane,
and many others…

Which is a long way of saying: dude, chill out.  If you wanna promote
yourself, your materials, Sara, it’s all-good.  I don’t think anyone has
problems with that — I certainly don’t.  But restarting petty bullshit
based upon nonsense, isn’t exactly helpful.

Whatever you may say, or feel about St. Kitts…  Nobody has ever died
there, and no one ever will.  This claim cannot be made of people
self-dosing with your materials.

| keep in touch with former clients and,while they would like to remain
| anonymous,most of them stay clean.Of course it is one thing to eliminate
| acute withdrawal symptoms regarding opiates,and there we may all have a
| 100% success rate,quite another thing to inspire people to start a new
| life.As Sara has used Iboga for a wide variety of drug problems and not
| only as an opiod withdrawal eliminating remedy,and the 90% success rate
| that I referred to was not about the few days the clients stayed in her
| house,it is in my view not only due to the pharmacodynamics,and what I have
| tried to point out is that something more than the specific action of
| Ibogaine is needed to achieve lasting good results.The reason I wrote the

Well duh.  That’s the whole “aftercare” issue/question, and whether or not
any particular modality can prove more beneficial than others, when a
person is unsprung and in a non drug-dependent state.

The 90% success figures are nonsense.  Anybody who makes such claims is
engaged in wishful thinking.  I would rate the DETOX rate at 100%, what
happens afterwards is all over the map.  And the truth is, YOU have NO WAY
of knowing.  Because no one does.  You may or may not run into various
people a few years down the line, ask “hey, how’re you?”  And depending on
their mood the answer can be almost anything.  It also has absolutely
nothing to do with “reality” and whether or not they are drug free.

You dunno dude.  Nobody does.  The closest anyone comes IS at St. Kitts,
where there are resources to track what actually happens to various
people, and obtain data.  Not lines of bullshit.

Again, I apologize, perhaps you have Alien Technology, not available to
others, which allows you to do Remote Viewing and Gather Data, in which
case I am completely wrong.

| thing in the first place was because I wanted to see an overall improvement
| in the quality of the experienced content so that clients don’t relapse
| into addictive routine perception and that therapists handle the stuff in a
| truly enlightened manner,and,above all that people who give the stuff to
| others know how it feels to take it.We are not working in a gas station.

No we’re not…  I think the general goal IS improvement of long-term
effects for persons who no longer wish to be drug-dependent.

How what you’re doing is supposed to further these goals, I am unclear.

Patrick

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From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] How we used to do it in the Old School
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:35:20 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“The candidate was laid in the great stone coffin and for three days his spirit,freed from its mortal coil,wandered at the gateways of eternity:His KA,as a bird,flew through the spiritual spheres of space.He discovered that all the universe was life,progress and eternal growth.Realizing that his body was a house which he could slip out of and return to without death,he achieved actual immortality.At the end of three days,he returned to himself again,and having thus personally and actually experienced the great mystery,he was indeed an Initiate
-one who beheld and one to whom religion had fulfilled her duty,bringing
him to the Light of God.”
(Manly Palmer Hall)

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:31:14 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla Barnes, Andre’ Chavez. Look I don’t mean to GUSH or however you seem to interpet my view on ibogaine. I just had more than a few friends who tried ibo and were completely disguted with the product. If you read ht or the hh you will hear other stories about people who spent thousands of dollars on nothing, it just makes me mad to hear pro-ibogaine success stories that really have no merit. You might as well kick at any detox center (and many are free and relativley painless) save your money and try to live your life. For those who believe in ibogaine I question their addiction. Sincerly Andre’ Chavez

—– Original Message —–
From: Carla Barnes
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 7:32 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
I haven’t been reading ibogaine things long enough to have heard all that which Bill said, but from reading heroin times there’s that lady going off about people who dosed her in a hotel in NY, which is the same story that is now on heroinhelper now that I’ve started reading hh when I learned that it existed from the posts on this list, except it was rewritten without the names.
I’m getting the idea there are more then a few unhappy ibogaine users who are going off on almost everybody involved in the ibogaine scene. I’m still waiting for Andre Chavez to come back and gush some more 🙂
Patrick that was funny 🙂 I’m veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy curious, if St. Kitts didn’t exist and you didn’t know Dr. Mash and needed to do ibogaine. Where would you go? I’d really like to hear that, your a strange combination of qualities but you’re really smart, ibogaine worked for you and even if you are crazy you at least look like you know it and pull it all in and deal with reality. Whatever your problems you’re not having a pychotic break 🙂
Carla B
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:37:12PM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
| that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who
| went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like
| shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written down
| before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory
| serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to

Carl … There is one diatribe from some disgruntled alcoholic who feels
that magic has not taken place. I am cogent and aware that you do not
like St. Kitts, for whatever reasons you have. For the most part this is
completely irrelevent, as you do not know anything about St. Kitts.

While I do not represent them, I am aware that for various reasons there
are a variety of persons who are no longer welcome there, and thus need to
find somewhere else to keep dosing themselves with ibogaine. Unlike
various locations, they will not keep accepting people who have obvious
and extreme psychological disturbances, who are unlikely to be helped by
ibogaine in this regard.

People who are not welcome back, are likely to talk shit, and express
negative commentary. C’est la’vie.

 

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Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit ,
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:09:23 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

IBOGAINE IS THE WORLDS BIGGEST SCAM, IF ANYONE SAYS THEY GOT CURED OR EVE=
N DETOXED WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF IBOGAINE NEVER HAD A HABIT IN THE FIRST =
PLACE. ALL OF MY FRIENDS WHO TRIED TO USE IT TO KICK HEROIN WERE NOT ONLY=
SICKER WHILE DETOXING THEY WERE OUT THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, AND THEY ALL W=
ENT BACK TO USING BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT TAKE THE PAIN OF DETOXING (WHILE=
USING IBOGAINE), YOU MIGHT AS WELL TAKE TYLENOL, IT AT LEAST MIGHT HAVE =
SOME EFFECT !!!   ANDRE’

Andre, how many friends?

Bill Ross

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] REMOVE ME
Date: April 26, 2002 at 4:06:28 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ALL YOU SPREAD IN YOUR PRO-IBO VIEW=
POINT IS LIES.Get more from the Web.

Don’t mind if I do.

Bill

From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit ,
Date: April 26, 2002 at 3:59:27 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

IBOGAINE IS THE WORLDS BIGGEST SCAM, IF ANYONE SAYS THEY GOT CURED OR EVEN DETOXED WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF IBOGAINE NEVER HAD A HABIT IN THE FIRST PLACE. ALL OF MY FRIENDS WHO TRIED TO USE IT TO KICK HEROIN WERE NOT ONLY SICKER WHILE DETOXING THEY WERE OUT THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, AND THEY ALL WENT BACK TO USING BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT TAKE THE PAIN OF DETOXING (WHILE USING IBOGAINE), YOU MIGHT AS WELL TAKE TYLENOL, IT AT LEAST MIGHT HAVE SOME EFFECT !!!   ANDRE’

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:29 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit ,

—– Original Message —–
From: sara119
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] talk shit ,

We know quit a lot about St, Kidds ,those who don’t like D.M. superior
talk come here , and why should they pay 12,000$ IF everybody
have the same 100% detox rate ….if you go to slovenia pay only 1000$
England 600$ same same at the end you come out clean.
even if Carl would do the treatment for nothing the person will get clean ,
and I saw that happen many times , those who talk shit in the last conference in London must have had a good time ,I know Henk did
enjoy your company ,Horny for fame and excitement .

may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,

everyone’s day will come , only if it was after taking Carl’s Iboga

Look Sarah, it’s great that you treat people and it’s great to take care of people and give them love, for sure it’s an experience that a lot of addicts probably haven’t had much of before. So, if all this stuff you do is going like it should, why do you come out with this “may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,everyone’s day will come ” -stuff? Sounds like something out of the Old Testament. We had a ibogaine conference in London, it was great! People get treated in the UK, Holland, Slovenia, Czech Rep, St Kitts, etc, etc, it’s great! I just don’t understand where all this antagonism comes in from. Why does everything have to be resolved into this whole Good vs Evil debate? There are deeper levels of reality you know. I doubt Dr Mash makes a big fortune out of treating people, but so what if she does? If people wanna pay for a full clinical set-up they can get that there. What’s the problem? Reading your stuff, it’s like everyone’s wearing a “I am Good” or “I am Bad” t-shirt and woe betide anyone with the latter, like the Day of Judgment is gonna descend upon them.

And……another thing……if people started sending me letters like this………

As soon as i finish this e-mail i’m going to the Y.M.C.A. for my shower, and play on that side of town.  I love you Sara and my prayer i pray right now  is , ” Heavenly Father, i give you glory and praise , for one such as Sara, and dear L-rd, for the sake of Your promise to us as Your children, please bless Sara with so much Spiritual and Finical  blessing that she can’t even know he to give her excess to, for we Dearest L-rd know that , we are Your Hand and Your feet, and your eyes, For we as Your Eyes which look, compassion on this world, we are Your Feet to which walk to do good and Your Hands to which You bless all the earth.”  Love earl

……….I’d start getting a bit worried about where the treatment was going. OK, the guy’s just come off drugs but he’s projecting like crazy and it don’t sound too healthy to me.

that makes it bad , well they are more people who have a much better life after taking that Iboga extract , who might have died on the street othewise but then no body would care , just another junkie ,

I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure
I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard .
Talking shit about people isn’t my style

Yeah, right! I mean, totally! And if anyone disagrees then the Vengeance of the L-rd will descend upon them.

Nick

, it isn’t what healing is about sure doesn’t give anybody
a good Karma ,
talking about a price of a treatment is something else.

be well,

Sara

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From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] REMOVE ME
Date: April 26, 2002 at 3:52:14 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

REMOVE ME FROM YOUR BUNK ASS SITE !!! ALL YOU SPREAD IN YOUR PRO-IBO VIEWPOINT IS LIES.

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From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit
Date: April 26, 2002 at 3:51:03 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

DAVID YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT, IBOGAINE, THE MIRICLE CURE, DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR ANY OF MY FRIENDS WHO TOOK IT. THEY WERE DESPERATELY TRYING TO QUIT HEROIN, INSTED THEY TOOK THIS SHIT AND NOT ONLY WERE SICKER WHEN THEY TOOK IT THEY WERE OUT BOATLOADS OF MONEY, IBOGAINE IS ONE OF THE WORLDS BIGGEST SCAMS, YOU MIGHT AS WELL TAKE TWO ASPIRINS AND CALL ME IN THE MORNING. EVERYONE I KNOW WHO TOOK IT HAD NEGATIVE RESULTS. PRINT THIS YOU PRO-IBOGAINE LIERS. ANDRE’

—– Original Message —–
From: David Soriano
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:51 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com; Patrick K. Kroupa
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit
Please UNSUBSCRIBE

Thank you, Dave

> [Original Message]
> From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Date: 4/25/02 1:04:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit
>
> On [Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 02:57:46AM +0200], [sara119] wrote:
>
> | and I saw that happen many times , those who talk shit in the last
> | conference in London must have had a good time ,I know Henk did
> | enjoy your company ,Horny for fame and excitement .
> |
> |  may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,
> |
> | everyone’s day will come , only if it was after taking Carl’s Iboga
> |
> | that makes it bad , well they are more people who have a much better
life after taking that Iboga extract , who might have died on the street
othewise but then no body would care , just another junkie ,
> |
> |  I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure
> | I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard .
> | Talking shit about people isn’t my style , it isn’t what healing is
> | about sure doesn’t give anybody
> |  a good Karma ,
> |  talking about a price of a treatment is something else.
>
> Sara…  I think, based upon my careful observations, it is the nature of
> being human and alive and stuff, to talk shit sometimes…  Some people do
> so more often than others…
>
> Of course doing that, often leads to other people talking back at you…
>
> I don’t have a problem with anybody for the most part, and think everybody
> should go wherever the hell they want to go…  Whatever calls out to you,
> whatever works with your financial resources, headspace and legal issues,
> and brings you closer to where you’d like to be — wherever that is.
>
> It has been my experience though, that when attempting to take the moral
> higher ground, it’s a good idea to try not to trip, slip, and fall on your
> ass…  It’s a very slippery slope.
>
> peace,
>
> Patrick

— David Soriano
— soriano@penn.com
— EarthLink: It’s your Internet.

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From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 26, 2002 at 3:43:40 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I FOUND YOUR STATEMENT NOT ONLY TO BE TRUE BUT TO BE VERY INFORMATIVE, AND I AM A HEROIN USER(20 YEARS’), EVERYONE I KNOW WHO USED IBO, ARE STILL USING HEROIN, IT WAS NOT THE MIRICLE DRUG THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD BE, INSTED THEY SPENT THOUSANDS ON THIS SHIT WITH ABSOLUTELY NO RESULTS. KEEP SPREADING THE TRUTH, TRUTH IS CONTAGIOUS!!!

—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:04 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine

>But Dana,
>     Maybe he was happy doing heroin. Just because a person is using heroin,
>or other opiate, doesn’t necessarily mean they need, nor for that matter
>even want, treatment of any kind, not even ibogaine. For some, even when it
>occasionally kills them, find heroin and other opiates, (or any drugs for
>that matter) are precisely the thing that makes them feel whole.
>     Was it the heroin that killed him? Whatever he shot most probably did
>kill him, but had he been able to buy heroin legally, under strict quality
>controls, he would have known how much to use, what was in it, not had to be
>alone when doing it, not had to hide, feel like a criminal, etc.
>     Ibogaine mighta been good for him, but if he liked doing heroin, had the
>money to do it, why shouldn’t he have been allowed to do so without fear of
>being criminalized, or put down for being less than human, a “junkie.” I
>really get peeved at the attitude that some drugs are cool, and others are
>just plain bad. If been reading recently about how heroin itself, in its
>pure form does NOT have deleterious effects on the body, being remarkably
>clean and human body friendly, Under currently prohibition policies, heroin
>addicts are forced to pursue outrageously inflated priced dope, fear cops,
>deal with ruthless uncaring hoods who cut their heroin with all kinds of
>shit, none of which would be the case were if simply legalized. Heroin is no
>better or worse than any other drug, except for the added bullshit, (can I
>say bullshit here, or is that bad lingo?) harms prohibition create. When I
>had a good supply and way to make the money, I was able to maintain a
>SERIOUS heroin habit, (1/4 grams shots 3-5 times a day of that dope in
>England one had to cut with lemon or citric powder to break down under heat,
>plus all the teenths I could get my hands on), and be productive, creative,
>and even happy.
>     Of course, what with prohibition, it is nearly impossible to continue
>like that for any length as a good trusted dealer will eventually get
>busted.
>     Do you really think that all heroin addicts or users should take
>ibogaine simply because you don’t like heroin? And why don’t you like
>heroin? Because you’ve had to deal with junkies who have to operate under
>prohibition, who’ve had it driven into their heads, (and everyone else’s
>too) that to use heroin, they have to be a criminal, and they will steal,
>like and cheat to get it, so they naturally live up those stereotypes? Is
>that because heroin automatically makes one evil, or it is because current
>prohibition policies and societal prejudices leave an addict with little
>option?
>Peace,
>Preston
>

He said it had turned into a nightmare, or the equivalent, in some of
the press I saw. Maybe I can dig it out of MAPinc, but I’m really
busy right now.

Dana/cnw

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: [ibogaine] spooked
Date: April 26, 2002 at 1:45:45 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is it just me, or is a squabble going on? If so, I don’t understand why.

One of the most interesting things to get off the list would be these
simple numbers from people administering ibogaine:

————————————————————————-

Number of people administered ibogaine: ___
Number of people still in touch: ___

Number of people administered ibogaine for opiate addiction: ___
Number of those people still in touch: ___
Number of _those_ people believed still free of opiates: ___

Ditto for cocaine/speed: ___ ___ ___

Type of iboga used: _______

Definition of “in touch:” you expect to hear from them again.

————————————————————————-

Maybe Howard could gather reports from anyone who is minded to trust him,
and pass on the overall stats?

Call me a quantitative fool, a Cartesian, even a scientist 🙂
but there is something fascinating for me in the difficulty of
getting that small list of numbers. What force or forces is
keeping us ignorant? Wouldn’t each and every person on this
list, providers included, take some interest in knowing it?

Bill Ross

From: “sara119” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] Vengeance ? that’s human
Date: April 26, 2002 at 5:46:03 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeah, right! I mean, totally! And if anyone disagrees then the Vengeance of the L-rd will descend upon them.

Nick

I do respect everyone religion expression ,and can’t agree with Vengeance of the Lord, because I’m Jewish not christian, Our God
is about Chessed ,mercy and kabbalistic healing ,( healing in different levels which are in the tree of life )and not about Vengeance ,
which is only in the level of schinah or yesod , which is the lawest
level of being , Goes together with greed  and egotism .

at least he is alive and singing taking care of himself and doesn’t talk shit,

Sara

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] yet another military intelligence trip
Date: April 24, 2002 at 6:01:35 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: spacetech@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear friends
This one is almost too good to be true…but it is…
http://www.almartinraw.com/column56.html
Sink or swim in the alphabet soup…money talks!
Carlito

_________________________________________________________________
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ssris
Date: April 25, 2002 at 11:02:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/25/02 10:52:09 PM, robertbosch@softhome.net writes:

<< Hello, I understand this is a tense time or something and do not want to
be

rude, but if anyone could stop fighting long enough to please answer the

simple question of where I could look up ssri’s and what problem if any I

could expect using ibogaine while on them. Or anyone has any advice I would

appreciate it.  >>

Rob,

Go to the ibogaine manual <www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html>.  Go to the
table of contents right below the introduction and click on the discussion
link.  Once in the discussion section scroll down to right after the
“exclusion criteria” and you will find some discussion of ssri’s.

Howard

From: robertbosch@softhome.net
Subject: [ibogaine] ssris
Date: April 25, 2002 at 10:51:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello, I understand this is a tense time or something and do not want to be rude, but if anyone could stop fighting long enough to please answer the simple question of where I could look up ssri’s and what problem if any I could expect using ibogaine while on them. Or anyone has any advice I would appreciate it.
Thank you
Rob

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 26, 2002 at 1:22:44 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

He said it had turned into a nightmare, or the equivalent, in some of
the press I saw. <

Any idea if perhaps it turned into a nightmare because people wouldn’t leave
him alone and kept telling him he was a fuck up for doing heroin, even
though he had himself a successful band and all that? Perhaps because he was
always paranoid about arrest? Or getting bad dope? I mean, there’s tons of
reasons heroin use turns nightmarish, and addiction is only one of many
scenarios, and even then, not the worst if one can supply oneself, as he
probably could.
Peace,
Preston

Come on over. Let’s dig out the press. Of course they could be
distorting, but he said the drugs themselves did it.

He just got tired. And then the addiction turned against him.

Dana/cnw

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit ,
Date: April 25, 2002 at 10:17:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/25/02 11:19:58 AM, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:

<<  I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure

I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard . >>

Dear Sara,

Thank you for your kind words.  Needless to say, all of you know I support
ibogaine therapy in its many forms including religious, shamanic, self-help
and medical.  As I have indicated in the Ibogaine Manual
<www.ibogaine.org/manual.html> most of us, including myself when, I was
actively involved in ibogaine research and therapy, have been and are
influenced by time/cost constraints.  Sara is the only provider I know of who
completely dismisses her own time and money issues and basically cares for
patients until they leave, sometimes after eating everything in the house
leaving no food for Sara or her children.  And, I admit I always worry that
something may go wrong but, so far so good.

Concerning both forms of ibogaine, that is the purified HCl and the Indra
extract, arguments can be made for both products but, the key issue is
knowing your product.

I consider Sara the most hands on practitioner of ibogaine therapy.  She is
the only ibogaine provider who will dose as to the needs of her patient
basing the dosing regimen solely on their needs and her experience.  This is
one of the reasons I look forward to her possible participation in submitting
to the next revision of the Ibogaine Manual.  Were Sara a medical doctor her
method of using ibogaine would be most in keeping with the actual practice of
medicine rather that meeting research protocol needs or providing a religious
initiation rite.  This is not to say that each is not of equal value as
provided.

I do not anticipate that academic and medically credentialed individuals will
submit material to the manual but, I would certainly like to see publications
in the medical literature indicating practical dose regimen and safety
protocols, something that has not yet happened. Their submissions however,
would be welcome.

My own preference is a medical environment as it means the least amount of
work or concern for myself and the most work for the doctors, nurses and
other medical staff.  As for miracles, I think what has always driven
ibogaine providers is the apparent miracle that they see before their eyes of
a patient in a totally out of control addiction mode suddenly have that
addiction reversed and to be transformed into a non-addicted person
regardless of for how long.  And, yes there is a sense of power and
empowerment that influences most providers.  That is simply to be expected
with something as wondrous as ibogaine and there is nothing wrong with that.

On the issue of success of treatments I think most of us have fallen victim
to the prohibitionist requirements established by our societies to one extent
or another.  It is too bad we cannot simply provide ibogaine for its wonder
and its beneficial effects without meeting some formal requirement set by
prohibitionists who have brought such pain to so many with their world view.
One day free of addiction is amazing.  Anything after that is just more
amazing.

Just my brief comment.

Howard

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 25, 2002 at 9:14:17 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

He said it had turned into a nightmare, or the equivalent, in some of
the press I saw. <

Any idea if perhaps it turned into a nightmare because people wouldn’t leave
him alone and kept telling him he was a fuck up for doing heroin, even
though he had himself a successful band and all that? Perhaps because he was
always paranoid about arrest? Or getting bad dope? I mean, there’s tons of
reasons heroin use turns nightmarish, and addiction is only one of many
scenarios, and even then, not the worst if one can supply oneself, as he
probably could.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine

But Dana,
Maybe he was happy doing heroin. Just because a person is using
heroin,
or other opiate, doesn’t necessarily mean they need, nor for that matter
even want, treatment of any kind, not even ibogaine. For some, even when
it
occasionally kills them, find heroin and other opiates, (or any drugs for
that matter) are precisely the thing that makes them feel whole.
Was it the heroin that killed him? Whatever he shot most probably
did
kill him, but had he been able to buy heroin legally, under strict
quality
controls, he would have known how much to use, what was in it, not had to
be
alone when doing it, not had to hide, feel like a criminal, etc.
Ibogaine mighta been good for him, but if he liked doing heroin, had
the
money to do it, why shouldn’t he have been allowed to do so without fear
of
being criminalized, or put down for being less than human, a “junkie.” I
really get peeved at the attitude that some drugs are cool, and others
are
just plain bad. If been reading recently about how heroin itself, in its
pure form does NOT have deleterious effects on the body, being remarkably
clean and human body friendly, Under currently prohibition policies,
heroin
addicts are forced to pursue outrageously inflated priced dope, fear
cops,
deal with ruthless uncaring hoods who cut their heroin with all kinds of
shit, none of which would be the case were if simply legalized. Heroin is
no
better or worse than any other drug, except for the added bullshit, (can
I
say bullshit here, or is that bad lingo?) harms prohibition create. When
I
had a good supply and way to make the money, I was able to maintain a
SERIOUS heroin habit, (1/4 grams shots 3-5 times a day of that dope in
England one had to cut with lemon or citric powder to break down under
heat,
plus all the teenths I could get my hands on), and be productive,
creative,
and even happy.
Of course, what with prohibition, it is nearly impossible to
continue
like that for any length as a good trusted dealer will eventually get
busted.
Do you really think that all heroin addicts or users should take
ibogaine simply because you don’t like heroin? And why don’t you like
heroin? Because you’ve had to deal with junkies who have to operate under
prohibition, who’ve had it driven into their heads, (and everyone else’s
too) that to use heroin, they have to be a criminal, and they will steal,
like and cheat to get it, so they naturally live up those stereotypes? Is
that because heroin automatically makes one evil, or it is because
current
prohibition policies and societal prejudices leave an addict with little
option?
Peace,
Preston

He said it had turned into a nightmare, or the equivalent, in some of
the press I saw. Maybe I can dig it out of MAPinc, but I’m really
busy right now.

Dana/cnw

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 25, 2002 at 11:59:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But Dana,
Maybe he was happy doing heroin. Just because a person is using heroin,
or other opiate, doesn’t necessarily mean they need, nor for that matter
even want, treatment of any kind, not even ibogaine. For some, even when it
occasionally kills them, find heroin and other opiates, (or any drugs for
that matter) are precisely the thing that makes them feel whole.
Was it the heroin that killed him? Whatever he shot most probably did
kill him, but had he been able to buy heroin legally, under strict quality
controls, he would have known how much to use, what was in it, not had to be
alone when doing it, not had to hide, feel like a criminal, etc.
Ibogaine mighta been good for him, but if he liked doing heroin, had the
money to do it, why shouldn’t he have been allowed to do so without fear of
being criminalized, or put down for being less than human, a “junkie.” I
really get peeved at the attitude that some drugs are cool, and others are
just plain bad. If been reading recently about how heroin itself, in its
pure form does NOT have deleterious effects on the body, being remarkably
clean and human body friendly, Under currently prohibition policies, heroin
addicts are forced to pursue outrageously inflated priced dope, fear cops,
deal with ruthless uncaring hoods who cut their heroin with all kinds of
shit, none of which would be the case were if simply legalized. Heroin is no
better or worse than any other drug, except for the added bullshit, (can I
say bullshit here, or is that bad lingo?) harms prohibition create. When I
had a good supply and way to make the money, I was able to maintain a
SERIOUS heroin habit, (1/4 grams shots 3-5 times a day of that dope in
England one had to cut with lemon or citric powder to break down under heat,
plus all the teenths I could get my hands on), and be productive, creative,
and even happy.
Of course, what with prohibition, it is nearly impossible to continue
like that for any length as a good trusted dealer will eventually get
busted.
Do you really think that all heroin addicts or users should take
ibogaine simply because you don’t like heroin? And why don’t you like
heroin? Because you’ve had to deal with junkies who have to operate under
prohibition, who’ve had it driven into their heads, (and everyone else’s
too) that to use heroin, they have to be a criminal, and they will steal,
like and cheat to get it, so they naturally live up those stereotypes? Is
that because heroin automatically makes one evil, or it is because current
prohibition policies and societal prejudices leave an addict with little
option?
Peace,
Preston

He said it had turned into a nightmare, or the equivalent, in some of
the press I saw. Maybe I can dig it out of MAPinc, but I’m really
busy right now.

Dana/cnw

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Ibogaine HCl in yo’ bathtub
Date: April 25, 2002 at 6:19:18 PM EDT
To: vox@mindvox.com

woo hoo

EXTRACTION STUDIES OF TABERNANTHE IBOGA AND VOACANGA AFRICANA

CHRISTOPHER JENKS

Abstract: The root bark of Tabernanthe iboga contains ibogaine as its
predominant alkaloid and has been an important source of it. Ibogaine is
used experimentally to interrupt drug addiction and allow therapeutic
intervention, but is currently unaffordable to doctors in less economically
developed countries. To meet this need, an extraction of alkaloids from T.
iboga root bark was optimized and simplified to use only diluted vinegar
and ammonia, and was successfully applied to related alkaloids from
Voacanga africana bark also. The alkaloids were converted to their
hydrochlorides and purified, and the minor alkaloids were recovered.

Keywords: Addiction treatment, Drug addiction, Ibogaine, Ibogaline,
Voacangine, Tabernanthe iboga, Voacanga africana

INTRODUCTION

The root bark of the Tabernanthe iboga shrub has been used for centuries in
West African ceremonies by Bwiti initiation society members entering
adulthood (1). The Bwiti believe that the initiates meet their deceased
ancestors and thus form a more tangible link with their past and
traditions. The principle alkaloid in the root bark is ibogaine (2), which
itself possesses pharmacological effects similar to those of the root (3).
These effects, which last about 36 hours in human beings after a single
oral dose, may include nausea, incoordination, visual after images and
closed-eye imagery, introspectiveness, and many psychological experiences
which could be of psychotherapeutic value, such as the re-experiencing of
past memories in an unthreatening manner (4,5).

The ability of ibogaine to interrupt addiction was discovered in 1962 by
Howard Lotsof of New York (6). Howard was addicted to heroin and took an
extremely rare opportunity to ingest ibogaine due to his interest in
psychedelics. After the experience he realized that both his desire for
heroin and the expected symptoms of withdrawal were absent. This freedom
from addiction continued over the following months, and the ability of
ibogaine to interrupt addictions to heroin, methadone, cocaine,
methamphetamine, and nicotine has since been demonstrated in animals as
well as hundreds of human subjects5. Howard Lotsof began patenting the use
of ibogaine for treating drug addictions (7) in 1985 and campaigned between
1982 and 1994 to obtain FDA approval for this use. This campaign included
initiating research agreements with academic institutions in Canada,
Europe, the United States and Central America as well as the National
Institute on Drug Abuse (8). In spite of severe financial obstacles for
researchers in this area, ibogaine continues to be the focus of continued
research and experimental treatment in both animals and humans (5).

The most popular natural source of ibogaine has been the root bark of T.
iboga (2), but the shrub only grows naturally in Africa (3) and currently
requires professional training to extract. Existing procedures (2,9) use
haloalkanes or alcohols for the extraction and chromatography for the
purification of iboga alkaloids and are expensive and difficult because
their objective was only to identify the alkaloids present. Ibogaine can
also be prepared semisynthetically (10) or synthetically (11), and these
methods hold great promise for future development but are currently
expensive. Meanwhile affordable ibogaine is needed by researchers and
doctors exploring treatment options for addiction in less economically
developed countries. This article presents a convenient, inexpensive, and
efficient procedure to isolate and purify the alkaloids from T. iboga root
bark and enable affordable processing of the bark in Africa without
exportation.

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION

Analysis of T. iboga root bark using silica TLC, eluting twice with ethyl
acetate followed by staining with iodine vapor, showed ibogaine as a dark
brown spot (Rf = 0.16) with a trail (depending on concentration), a red
spot (Rf = 0.07) belonging to ibogaline below it, and a small brown spot
(Rf = 0.21), assumed to be ibogamine, slightly above it. The percentages of
ibogaine, ibogaline, and ibogamine appear to be 80%, 15%, and 5%
respectively judging by the size and density of the stained spots. The spot
for ibogaline gave a red stain using Keller’s reagent (12), confirming its
identity (9). Occasionally a batch of root would contain ibogaine and
ibogamine but little or no ibogaline, and perhaps this was a related
Tabernanthe species (9). TLC analysis of root wood, stem bark or leaves of
the T. iboga plant showed negligible ibogaine.

The optimized extraction method involved stirring powdered root bark with
vinegar and filtering. Boiling the bark made the vinegar impossible to
filter and was unnecessary. Although filter paper or coffee filters worked
on a small scale, a cloth sack was more appropriate for large scale
filtration. Either shredded or powdered root or root bark were efficiently
extracted using this method, although large shavings trapped some alkaloid
under the bark. The yield wasn’t improved by extracting for longer than an
hour, increasing the concentration of acetic acid, or using a larger volume
of acetic acid solution. Each extraction of shredded root bark removed
about half as much alkaloid as the previous one, so that three extractions
gave approximately 87% of the alkaloid potentially extractable from the
root. Further extractions were practical only for large batches or if the
extracts were then used to extract fresh root in a batch process.

Ammonia was convenient for basifying the filtered extracts, although other
inorganic bases should have worked also. The resulting solid precipitate of
total alkaloids (TA) was fortuitous since the expected oil would have
necessitated laborious extraction. The TA took fewer hours to filter if the
upper liquid was first siphoned off after the solid settled. The TA was
dried at room temperature or with gentle warming. Solutions left sitting
for more than a few days were contaminated by bacteria.

The TA solid showed no detectable change according to TLC even after months
of exposure to indirect sunlight and air. The solidity and stability of the
TA were unexpected because the evaporated acetone extract of it gives an
unstable oil.

The alkaloids in the TA solid were purified (2) by extraction with acetone,
leaving a significant amount (50-65%) of dark, insoluble material behind.
The dissolved alkaloids were precipitated as their hydrochlorides by adding
concentrated hydrochloric acid (HCl) and filtered. The solid was stable
during years of storage and being enriched in the major alkaloids is called
purified total alkaloid hydrochlorides (PTA HCl). The relative quantities
of TA and acetone were optimized for this procedure to maximize the yield
of PTA HCl, but the optimum volume of HCl depended on the moles of
extracted alkaloid determined by titration with Hcl.

A significant quantity of ibogaine and other alkaloid hydrochlorides
remained in the acetone after this procedure, and the solution darkened
over time. Evaporating the acetone gave an oil which was also too unstable
to store, but dissolving it in water and adding ammonia gave a solid of the
residual alkaloids (RA). This powder was stable during storage, and
together with the extracted TA residue and PTA HCl, weighed almost the same
as the original TA.

Recrystallization of PTA HCl from 95% ethanol gave ibogaine HCl with a
significant amount of ibogaline still present. Each successive
recrystallization removed about half of the remaining ibogaline, but at a
cost in yield. Ibogaine HCl crystals dissolved slowly in the boiling
ethanol while the solution darkened. Recrystallization from water or
mixtures of water and ethanol seemed to remove a larger proportion of
ibogaline but also darkened. Recrystallization from 95% ethanol gave
greater purification and yield for the base (2) than for the ibogaine HCl,
but the base was less stable for both handling in solution and storage,
unless melted and solidified into a solid chunk. Chromatography using
activity III basic alumina, eluting with cyclohexane followed by benzene or
toluene, separated ibogaine (490 mg) and ibogaline (109 mg) from TA, but
this method was costly and laborious on a large scale.

The yield (2.0-2.2%) of PTA HCl from the acetic acid extraction of root
bark shavings exceeded those of ethanol or chloroform extractions
(0.2-1.1%) and left relatively little alkaloid which could be extracted by
other means. The alkaloids which could be extracted using petroleum ether
from the acetic acid extract which had been basified and had the TA
filtered out amounted to only 1-2% of the weight of the TA.

Solutions and solid samples of TA, PTA base and PTA HCl were exposed to
direct sunlight and air for 10 days to assess their relative stabilities.
Only the solids remained intact in sunlight, and the hydrochloride was more
stable than the base in general. The rates of decomposition for the
alkaloids in different solvents were, from least to greatest: ethanol,
water, acetone, chloroform, and petroleum ether.

The most promising alternative source of ibogaine was its semisynthesis
from voacangine, obtained from the bark of the Voacanga africana tree. A
patent (10) by Janot and Goutarel claims that while T. iboga root bark
contains only 0.3% ibogaine, the more abundant and accessible trunk bark of
V. africana contains 0.5% voacangine, which can be easily converted into
ibogaine. Extraction of V. africana trunk bark using vinegar (see the
experimental section) was highly successful in isolating crude alkaloids.
However, extensive attempts to isolate or even identify voacangine in this
mixture, or to convert the mixture into ibogaine according to the patent,
were completely unsuccessful. A later publication (13) found only 0.14%
voacangine in the bark, and suggests that the concentration of voacangine
varies.

EXPERIMENTAL SECTION

Extraction of T. iboga root (TA). One kg (2.5 L) of powdered T. iboga root
and 5 L of 0.5% acetic acid were placed in a 6 L plastic bucket, stirred
occasionally for one hour, and filtered through a cloth sack. The sack was
wrung to expel all possible liquid from the root powder and the filtrate
(pH = 3-4) was basified using 60 mL of 30% ammonia. The resulting
flocculent, medium greenish-brown precipitate of TA was patiently gravity
filtered through 30 cm filter paper and thoroughly rinsed with distilled
water. This procedure was repeated twice more on the same root powder. The
filter papers bearing the TA were placed on paper towels on a wire rack and
left in a warm draft until successive weighings detected no more than 0.3%
loss per day. The hard, dark brown solid weighed 30.037 g (3.0%) and was
ground in a mortar and sifted to give a fine brown powder.

Conversion of alkaloids to the hydrochlorides (PTA HCl). 28.00 g of
powdered TA was placed on a filter paper in a funnel and 450 mL of acetone
was added in portions with gentle stirring. The funnel was removed and 2 mL
of concentrated HCl was slowly added dropwise to the flask with swirling,
occasionally adding a trace of PTA HCl from a previous batch to initiate
precipitation. After waiting a few minutes to allow precipitation to begin,
dropwise HCl (2.8 mL) was added with swirling until the liquid became
acidic according to pH paper. A final 0.4 mL of HCl was added dropwise and
the flask was placed in the refrigerator overnight. The yellow powder was
scraped from the sides of the flask, filtered, rinsed with 84 mL of
acetone, and dried at room temperature to give 9.493 g (33.9%) of PTA HCl.
The black, spent TA weighed 14.521 g (51.9%) after drying.

Ibogaine HCl. 9.712 g of PTA HCl was patiently dissolved in 150 mL of
boiling 95% ethanol, set overnight at room temperature, refrigerated for
two hours, and the mother liquor was decanted from the yellow crystals
(4.412 g). Recrystallizing again from 80 mL of 95% ethanol gave 3.666 g of
mostly pure ibogaine HCl.

Recovery of residual alkaloids (RA). Most of the acetone was distilled from
the filtrate from the preparation of PTA HCl and the remainder was
evaporated using a stream of air. The dark residue was dissolved in 400 mL
of distilled water, filtered, and basified to pH 9 using 3 mL of 30%
ammonia. The medium yellow suspension was filtered through a fresh coffee
filter paper and left on a warm surface to dry. The chunks of light,
chalky, off-white alkaloid residue weighed 4.750 g (17.0%).

Extraction of V. africana trunk bark (VTA). One kg of powdered trunk bark
was extracted in the same manner as the T. iboga root above, resulting in
59.723 g (6.0%) of crumbly brown voacanga total alkaloids (VTA).

Conversion of alkaloids to the hydrochlorides (VPTA HCl). 75.00 g of VTA
was treated in a manner similar to the PTA HCl above, resulting in 35.929 g
(43.6%) of medium brown VPTA HCl. The spent VTA weighed 31.534 g (42.0%).

Recovery of residual alkaloids. The filtrate from the preparation of VPTA
HCl was treated in a manner similar to the PTA HCl filtrate above,
resulting in 12.119 g (16.2%) of chalky, off-white solid.

Acknowledgment: I would like to thank my friends Karl Naeher and Eric Taub
for their encouragement and support in this research.

REFERENCES

1. J. W. Fernandez. Bwiti: An Ethnography of the Religious Imagination of
Africa. Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ, (1982).

2. D. F. Dickel; C. L. Holden; R. C. Maxfield; L. E. Paszek and W. I.
Taylor. “The alkaloids of Tabernanthe iboga. Part III. Isolation studies.”
Journal of the American Chemical Society, (1958), 80, 123-125.

3. R. E. Schultes and A. Hofmann. The Botany and Chemistry of
Hallucinogens, 2nd ed. C. C. Thomas, Springfield, IL, (1980), 233-240.

4. C. Naranjo. The Healing Journey. Pantheon Books, Div. Random House, NY,
(1973), 174-228.

5. P. Popik; R. T. Layer and P. Skolnick. “100 Years of ibogaine –
neurochemical and pharmacological actions of a putative anti-addictive
drug.” Pharmacological Reviews, (1995), 47(2), 235-253. S. G. Sheppard. “A
preliminary investigation of ibogaine: case reports and recommendations for
further study.” Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, (1994), 11(4), 379-385.

6. S. Nadis. “The mystery of ibogaine: can an African psychedelic cure
addiction?” Omni, (July 1993), 15(9), 14.

7. H. S. Lotsof. “Rapid method for interrupting the narcotic addiction
syndrome.” United States patent, (1985), 4,499,096; Cocaine and
amphetamine: US patent, (1986), 4,587,243; Alcohol: US patent, (1989),
4,857,523; Nicotine: US patent, (1991), 5,026,697; Poly-drug dependency: US
patent, (1992), 5,152,994.

8. Howard Lotsof, personal communication. Also see http://www.ibogaine.org

9. N. Neuss. “Alkaloids from Apocyanaceae. II. Ibogaline, a new alkaloid
from Tabernanthe iboga Baill.” Journal of Organic Chemistry, (1959), 24,
2047-2048.

10. M-M. Janot and R. Goutarel. “Derivatives of the ibogaine alkaloids.”
United States patent, (November 19, 1957), 2,813,873.

11. B. M. Trost; S. A. Godleski and J. P. Genet. “A total synthesis of
racemic and optically active ibogamine. Utilization and mechanism of a new
silver ion assisted palladium catalyzed cyclization.” Journal of the
American Chemical Society, (1978), 100(12), 3930-3931.

12. A. Hofmann and F. Troxler. “Esters of Indoles.” United States patent,
(January 29, 1963), 3,075,992. C. C. Keller. “Neue Studien uber Secale
Cornutum, Ergotinin, Cornutin, Spasmotin.” Schweizerische Wochenschrift fur
Chemie und Pharmacie, (1896), 34, 65-74.

13. D. W. Thomas and K. Biemann. “The alkaloids of Voacanga africana.”
Lloydia, (1968), 31(1), 1-8.

–Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z–

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 25, 2002 at 5:20:37 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But Dana,
Maybe he was happy doing heroin. Just because a person is using heroin,
or other opiate, doesn’t necessarily mean they need, nor for that matter
even want, treatment of any kind, not even ibogaine. For some, even when it
occasionally kills them, find heroin and other opiates, (or any drugs for
that matter) are precisely the thing that makes them feel whole.
Was it the heroin that killed him? Whatever he shot most probably did
kill him, but had he been able to buy heroin legally, under strict quality
controls, he would have known how much to use, what was in it, not had to be
alone when doing it, not had to hide, feel like a criminal, etc.
Ibogaine mighta been good for him, but if he liked doing heroin, had the
money to do it, why shouldn’t he have been allowed to do so without fear of
being criminalized, or put down for being less than human, a “junkie.” I
really get peeved at the attitude that some drugs are cool, and others are
just plain bad. If been reading recently about how heroin itself, in its
pure form does NOT have deleterious effects on the body, being remarkably
clean and human body friendly, Under currently prohibition policies, heroin
addicts are forced to pursue outrageously inflated priced dope, fear cops,
deal with ruthless uncaring hoods who cut their heroin with all kinds of
shit, none of which would be the case were if simply legalized. Heroin is no
better or worse than any other drug, except for the added bullshit, (can I
say bullshit here, or is that bad lingo?) harms prohibition create. When I
had a good supply and way to make the money, I was able to maintain a
SERIOUS heroin habit, (1/4 grams shots 3-5 times a day of that dope in
England one had to cut with lemon or citric powder to break down under heat,
plus all the teenths I could get my hands on), and be productive, creative,
and even happy.
Of course, what with prohibition, it is nearly impossible to continue
like that for any length as a good trusted dealer will eventually get
busted.
Do you really think that all heroin addicts or users should take
ibogaine simply because you don’t like heroin? And why don’t you like
heroin? Because you’ve had to deal with junkies who have to operate under
prohibition, who’ve had it driven into their heads, (and everyone else’s
too) that to use heroin, they have to be a criminal, and they will steal,
like and cheat to get it, so they naturally live up those stereotypes? Is
that because heroin automatically makes one evil, or it is because current
prohibition policies and societal prejudices leave an addict with little
option?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:56 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine

From: jvsilverman@yahoo.com
Reply-To: jvsilverman@yahoo.com
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Subject: Seattletimes.com: Fans gather to mourn troubled grunge
singer Layne Staley, dead at 34
Status:

This message was sent to you by jvsilverman@yahoo.com, as a service
of The Seattle Times (http://www.seattletimes.com).

From: “David Soriano” <soriano@penn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit
Date: April 25, 2002 at 4:52:00 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Reply-To: soriano@penn.com

Please UNSUBSCRIBE

Thank you, Dave

[Original Message]
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: 4/25/02 1:04:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit

On [Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 02:57:46AM +0200], [sara119] wrote:

| and I saw that happen many times , those who talk shit in the last
| conference in London must have had a good time ,I know Henk did
| enjoy your company ,Horny for fame and excitement .
|
|  may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,
|
| everyone’s day will come , only if it was after taking Carl’s Iboga
|
| that makes it bad , well they are more people who have a much better
life after taking that Iboga extract , who might have died on the street
othewise but then no body would care , just another junkie ,
|
|  I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure
| I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard .
| Talking shit about people isn’t my style , it isn’t what healing is
| about sure doesn’t give anybody
|  a good Karma ,
|  talking about a price of a treatment is something else.

Sara…  I think, based upon my careful observations, it is the nature of
being human and alive and stuff, to talk shit sometimes…  Some people do
so more often than others…

Of course doing that, often leads to other people talking back at you…

I don’t have a problem with anybody for the most part, and think everybody
should go wherever the hell they want to go…  Whatever calls out to you,
whatever works with your financial resources, headspace and legal issues,
and brings you closer to where you’d like to be — wherever that is.

It has been my experience though, that when attempting to take the moral
higher ground, it’s a good idea to try not to trip, slip, and fall on your
ass…  It’s a very slippery slope.

peace,

Patrick

— David Soriano
— soriano@penn.com
— EarthLink: It’s your Internet.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit ,
Date: April 25, 2002 at 3:30:56 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: sara119
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] talk shit ,

We know quit a lot about St, Kidds ,those who don’t like D.M. superior
talk come here , and why should they pay 12,000$ IF everybody
have the same 100% detox rate ….if you go to slovenia pay only 1000$
England 600$ same same at the end you come out clean.
even if Carl would do the treatment for nothing the person will get clean ,
and I saw that happen many times , those who talk shit in the last conference in London must have had a good time ,I know Henk did
enjoy your company ,Horny for fame and excitement .

may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,

everyone’s day will come , only if it was after taking Carl’s Iboga

Look Sarah, it’s great that you treat people and it’s great to take care of people and give them love, for sure it’s an experience that a lot of addicts probably haven’t had much of before. So, if all this stuff you do is going like it should, why do you come out with this “may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,everyone’s day will come ” -stuff? Sounds like something out of the Old Testament. We had a ibogaine conference in London, it was great! People get treated in the UK, Holland, Slovenia, Czech Rep, St Kitts, etc, etc, it’s great! I just don’t understand where all this antagonism comes in from. Why does everything have to be resolved into this whole Good vs Evil debate? There are deeper levels of reality you know. I doubt Dr Mash makes a big fortune out of treating people, but so what if she does? If people wanna pay for a full clinical set-up they can get that there. What’s the problem? Reading your stuff, it’s like everyone’s wearing a “I am Good” or “I am Bad” t-shirt and woe betide anyone with the latter, like the Day of Judgment is gonna descend upon them.

And……another thing……if people started sending me letters like this………

As soon as i finish this e-mail i’m going to the Y.M.C.A. for my shower, and play on that side of town.  I love you Sara and my prayer i pray right now  is , ” Heavenly Father, i give you glory and praise , for one such as Sara, and dear L-rd, for the sake of Your promise to us as Your children, please bless Sara with so much Spiritual and Finical  blessing that she can’t even know he to give her excess to, for we Dearest L-rd know that , we are Your Hand and Your feet, and your eyes, For we as Your Eyes which look, compassion on this world, we are Your Feet to which walk to do good and Your Hands to which You bless all the earth.”  Love earl

……….I’d start getting a bit worried about where the treatment was going. OK, the guy’s just come off drugs but he’s projecting like crazy and it don’t sound too healthy to me.

that makes it bad , well they are more people who have a much better life after taking that Iboga extract , who might have died on the street othewise but then no body would care , just another junkie ,

I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure
I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard .
Talking shit about people isn’t my style

Yeah, right! I mean, totally! And if anyone disagrees then the Vengeance of the L-rd will descend upon them.

Nick

, it isn’t what healing is about sure doesn’t give anybody
a good Karma ,
talking about a price of a treatment is something else.

be well,

Sara

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 3:10:07 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Although, your question was interesting…  My experiences while being
altered and around animals, are pretty much dogs appear to be highly in
sync with where you are at…  cats have been all over the spectrum for
me, ranging from throwing themselves down and purring, to hissing and
spitting and bailing…  Perhaps related to my states of mind at the
time… <

Whew, glad to know I’m not the only one who has experienced such reactions
among my pet, (7 cats currently, but I’ve seen it in rats and ferrets as
well). Guess I’m not crazy then.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:36:40PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| Well, were that there were more crazy people then, if my very short-term
| knowing Patrick is any indication of what to expect from crazies.;-))))
|     Thank goodness he’s not ‘normal’ either. Can’t say I actually know
too
| many of that type anyway.
|     Sorry all, I realize that once again, I’m posting completely off
topic
| of ibogaine.
|     And, btw, did anyone have any comments on my pet questions from
earlier
| today?
|     Peace, and joy,
|     Preston

Laughing…  Hey, thanks Preston, the feeling is very mutual…  I dunno,
I’ve heard that accusation pointed in my direction so many thousands of
times, that perhaps there is some truth to it; perhaps it’s all a point of
view, I dunno, but it’s no longer one of the things I worry about.

Although, your question was interesting…  My experiences while being
altered and around animals, are pretty much dogs appear to be highly in
sync with where you are at…  cats have been all over the spectrum for
me, ranging from throwing themselves down and purring, to hissing and
spitting and bailing…  Perhaps related to my states of mind at the
time…

too cool, I have a bright glow in the dark green lizard walking up my
wall…  This is one thing I like about Miami a lot, you open a door
or office at like 1am, and instead of the cockroach scene that greets you
in NYC, there is like a horde of little lizards which spin off in all
directions and scatter…

If St. Kitts mysteriously vanished, where would I dose…  Hum… well, I
absolutely, positively and without a doubt wouldn’t do it in the US, in
the comfort of my own place, because obviously this violates national
security, is super-naughty, highly bad, and very illegal…  So, uhm, my
primary interest would be knowing the origin of the materials, wanting
HCL, and selecting my own dose (within reason, I ain’t gonna kill myself,
but I wanna go buh-bye into neverland)…  The secondary concern would be
the set, setting, vibe, where and who, of the situation.  So what applies
for me personally would not necessarily matter to anyone else.  All this
means that me, myself, and I, would probably go and become a priest in
Marko’s cool religion, and/or hang with Hattie for a while…  Simply
because I know and like both of them, would feel comfortable and safe
there while tripping — I meant to say, experiencing spiritual
realignment, and getting a tuneup — and wouldn’t have my head filled with
thoughts like, “I am NOT tripping here, they’re gonna try to kill me while
i’m under and then just get rid of my body, fuck this, what was I
thinking, I gotta get out of here now…  Shit.. I can’t feel my body or
move and have severe ataxia…”

I guess it just amounts to being with people whose headspace I would not
mind sharing in that kinda way…  Perhaps we should gather Dave, Marko,
Nick, Dana, Howard, Preston, Francis =), Hattie, Drew, Bruce — who I will
kidnap for his own good, and Bill, and yes Carl, because Carl needs a
great big hug, and to set down the UFO repair manuals, and Sara, and b0b!,
and Andria, and Brian, because Brian desperately needs to DO some
ibogaine, and Jon, and the people from the east, the west, the north, the
south, those living inside the earth’s core, and in outer space, and
everybody who I forgot because I’m fried right now, like all the chicks
whose names start with the letter “C” and email from yahoo, and just have
a great big giant Be In, man, radiating good vibes and celestial harmony
in all directions.

Err, excuse me, I meant to say, ignore all that, it’s crazy talk.  But
everything prior to the last paragraph applies, except for that stuff
about dogs and cats, which I never said, at all.  Although John Lilly
tripped a lot while getting in touch with Dolphins.  And wrote quite a bit
about his experiences.

That’s it then.  And…  the lizard has stopped moving up my wall and is
either asleep, or just Being Zen.

g’night,

Patrick

p.s., wow, that was just Too Much positive energy, if the shooting range
were open I’d wake up Dr. Doom (who would be at the Be In as well) and go
fire automatic weapons into targets.

p.s., part II:  Plus, also, though, to mention: my relationship with
ibogaine and what it is, has changed considerably from where I started.
Were I strung out, all these questions would be totally pointless…
“Where do I want to dose and with who?  What’re you fucking kidding me?
Gimme the shit and I’ll dose in the mens room of a goddamn gas station, I
gotta get unsprung.”

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 2:51:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Patrick
Sure,man but landing in the U.S. is tricky since they started that Missile Defence Agency shooting-first-and-asking-questions-later trip.However,you may soon build your own through:

Home


Don’t forget to hoist the Jolly Roger…
Carlito

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:48:20 -0400

On [Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 06:17:14AM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| Dear Patrick
| Who told you about the saucer repairs manual?
| That’s supposed to be classified…
| and what happened to my posting about:
| http://www.almartinraw.com/column56.html
| Looking forward to your proposed gathering of heads…
| (if I’m not on Sirius B repairing some goddamn saucer)
|                                               peace,Carl W.

Look, that’s it.  I give up, if you are missing any spare parts, perhaps
something can be found here:

http://www.crashdebris.com/

If you ever get it working, please lemme know.  I’d like to go for a ride!

peace,

Patrick

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was Facts, now questions on finding, and the uses of ibogaine
Date: April 25, 2002 at 2:12:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 01:56:03PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| QUESTION- Is ibogaine ever used for other addictions, such at tobacco? I am
| REALLY having trouble kicking tobacco, even while I feel it clogging my
| veins and lungs. (gee, reminds me so much of when I was speedballing- I can
| feel the death drawing near, but what the hell, I CAN’T QUIT. I’d rather not
| go the patch/gum route, (patches skeeve me out, and I can’t chew gum.)

Every time I’ve dosed with ibogaine I have had to work REALLY HARD to
restart smoking.  I light a cigarette and literally would vomit, I had to
slowly work back up using menthols (blah).  I am proud to say that in
a triumpth of the human spirit, I now hover at roughly two packs a day
of Marlboros.  Woo hoo!

Basically, I didn’t WANT to stop smoking, I was cutting loose so many
other things at the time…  Right now I know I probably should stop, but
have suffered no ill effects from it yet — that I can tell — so being
real, and familiar with that whole “addiction,” scenario, means I am not
motivated enough to take action in this direction.

So yeah, I prolly should stop smoking, but I’m not quite at the stage
where I really want to.  Yet….

But uhm <drinking coffee, waking up brain> yeah, it sure appears to work
for that.  Furthermore, out of all the people I know who have dosed with
ibo, become health freaks, or whatever, as part of their recovery,
concluded that smoking was super-bad, and redosed with the INTENT of
stopping…  It appears to have a 100% success rate (out of the, lessee, 4
guys I personally know who have done this anyway).  It doesn’t seem to
be a major change, on par with cutting heroin loose; you’re just left with
this awkward urge to stick things in your mouth, and walk around with
lighters, which eventually passes.

z00m,

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] was Facts, now questions on finding, and the uses of ibogaine
Date: April 25, 2002 at 1:56:03 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

And something about being crazy: I might be crazy, but I’m not stupid. (I
usually say this when someone tells me that I’m crazy). And I prefer being
crazy to being sane, if “sane” means what majority of sheep (sorry, I mean
“people”) are.<

Good point- Which are the crazy ones- the sheeple, or those of us who
actually utilize our brains and freewill, refusing to buy into the endless
barrages of big-brother cogishness?
That’s a rhetorical questions by the way.
QUESTION- Is ibogaine ever used for other addictions, such at tobacco? I am
REALLY having trouble kicking tobacco, even while I feel it clogging my
veins and lungs. (gee, reminds me so much of when I was speedballing- I can
feel the death drawing near, but what the hell, I CAN’T QUIT. I’d rather not
go the patch/gum route, (patches skeeve me out, and I can’t chew gum.)
Granted, ibogaine appears to be illegal in my freedom loving country,
but I’ve not gotten a new passport, nor do I have $600-$800 plus ticket
price to get to London, much less $12,000 to get to this St. Kitts place.
Anyone know anyone who might be more underground but reputable in the
US, who while obviously not breaking any laws, might in some way be able to
help me, uh, find ibogaine and guide me?
Obviously, you can answer me off list, or on list, either way. PLEASE
give me feedback on this. As I also make my meager living, (such as it is)
by writing almost exclusively on the War on Drugs, and any and all subjects
I think to be even tangentially connected to the topic, I’d also be VERY
interested in writing up the experience, as Dana has suggested a few time to
me know to do.;-))
Again, feedback will be MOST appreciated.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ustanova Iboga” <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

Thank you, Patrick, you spared me a lot of typing…

I think it’s OK to “advertise” certain facility (and all of them!) in
mailing list (but not too often!! ;-)) – so people can find something that
suits them. An old pesant saying in my country says “I have five fingers
on
my hand, and each is different” meaning in our context that everyone
should
take that detox which suits him/her. If someone has a lot of money and
prefers medical setting then he/she can go to Panama or St. Kitts, others
can choose Sara or Carl or Brian or whoever or anyone else (I think that
Nick has quite a good site with treatment and other providers!). But I
think it’s NOT OK to say that someone is better than others, or that one
product is better than other without supporting that without a proof.

My wish is to have a place where people could stay at least for 2 months;
taking Ibogaine upon arrival and having intensive psychosocial
rehabilitation for the rest of staying. I’m quite sure that long-term
success rate would be over 90%!!

And something about being crazy: I might be crazy, but I’m not stupid. (I
usually say this when someone tells me that I’m crazy). And I prefer being
crazy to being sane, if “sane” means what majority of sheep (sorry, I mean
“people”) are.

😉
Marko

At 01:09 25.4.2002, you wrote:
On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:37:12PM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg]
wrote:

| All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
| that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people
who
| went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like
| shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written
down
| before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your
memory
| serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try
to

Carl …  There is one diatribe from some disgruntled alcoholic who feels
that magic has not taken place.  I am cogent and aware that you do not
like St. Kitts, for whatever reasons you have.  For the most part this is
completely irrelevent, as you do not know anything about St. Kitts.

While I do not represent them, I am aware that for various reasons there
are a variety of persons who are no longer welcome there, and thus need
to
find somewhere else to keep dosing themselves with ibogaine.  Unlike
various locations, they will not keep accepting people who have obvious
and extreme psychological disturbances, who are unlikely to be helped by
ibogaine in this regard.

People who are not welcome back, are likely to talk shit, and express
negative commentary.  C’est la’vie.

However … in general, it’s been my observation that whatever our
differences, our central belief is that ibogaine works; however you
choose
to define “works.”  And there are a variety of locations on planet earth,
where those who would choose to partake of it, may avail themselves.

In general I believe this to be a GOOD THING.

I am unclear how tossing out various petty problems, and restarting the
infighting which has mostly faded over the course of the past several
years, is going to assist “our” primary goals of at the very least
promoting awareness of ibogaine.

NONE of this is directed at Sara, whom I don’t know very well, but hear
positive things about and believe to be a nice person doing what she
believes is good, to the best of her ability to do so.

Were I to do what you just did — toss out various hearsay, under the
guise of facts, I might have a few salient questions…  The “indra”
materials and what’s in them…  Well, I don’t know all facts and details
of all materials on planet earth which were originally created by you,
but
I do know the lab analysis of 5 seperate lots thus far…  It isn’t
exactly inspirational…  I might ask if you’ve had success in dealing
with your own substance abuse problems…  I could question the abilities
of a “guide” who appears to be suffering psychotic breaks on a regular
basis; and how this person is going to help anyone maintain any sort of
positive state, which they themselves are not in…

But I won’t.  Because it’s all just hearsay, so why bother.

Pardon me, I’m sorry, I’m probably wrong, and have simply forgotten that
the Inner People of the Outer Planes, dropped a Transdimensional Gate in
your living room — while they were storing some left over UFO parts in
the basement — allowing you All Knowledge of All Things, on This Plane,
and many others…

Which is a long way of saying: dude, chill out.  If you wanna promote
yourself, your materials, Sara, it’s all-good.  I don’t think anyone has
problems with that — I certainly don’t.  But restarting petty bullshit
based upon nonsense, isn’t exactly helpful.

Whatever you may say, or feel about St. Kitts…  Nobody has ever died
there, and no one ever will.  This claim cannot be made of people
self-dosing with your materials.

| keep in touch with former clients and,while they would like to remain
| anonymous,most of them stay clean.Of course it is one thing to
eliminate
| acute withdrawal symptoms regarding opiates,and there we may all have a
| 100% success rate,quite another thing to inspire people to start a new
| life.As Sara has used Iboga for a wide variety of drug problems and not
| only as an opiod withdrawal eliminating remedy,and the 90% success rate
| that I referred to was not about the few days the clients stayed in her
| house,it is in my view not only due to the pharmacodynamics,and what I
have
| tried to point out is that something more than the specific action of
| Ibogaine is needed to achieve lasting good results.The reason I wrote
the

Well duh.  That’s the whole “aftercare” issue/question, and whether or
not
any particular modality can prove more beneficial than others, when a
person is unsprung and in a non drug-dependent state.

The 90% success figures are nonsense.  Anybody who makes such claims is
engaged in wishful thinking.  I would rate the DETOX rate at 100%, what
happens afterwards is all over the map.  And the truth is, YOU have NO
WAY
of knowing.  Because no one does.  You may or may not run into various
people a few years down the line, ask “hey, how’re you?”  And depending
on
their mood the answer can be almost anything.  It also has absolutely
nothing to do with “reality” and whether or not they are drug free.

You dunno dude.  Nobody does.  The closest anyone comes IS at St. Kitts,
where there are resources to track what actually happens to various
people, and obtain data.  Not lines of bullshit.

Again, I apologize, perhaps you have Alien Technology, not available to
others, which allows you to do Remote Viewing and Gather Data, in which
case I am completely wrong.

| thing in the first place was because I wanted to see an overall
improvement
| in the quality of the experienced content so that clients don’t relapse
| into addictive routine perception and that therapists handle the stuff
in a
| truly enlightened manner,and,above all that people who give the stuff
to
| others know how it feels to take it.We are not working in a gas
station.

No we’re not…  I think the general goal IS improvement of long-term
effects for persons who no longer wish to be drug-dependent.

How what you’re doing is supposed to further these goals, I am unclear.

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit ,
Date: April 25, 2002 at 1:37:02 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hey all,
Isn’t it possible that as with any method used to “kick” hard drugs, that
each of these different organizations/clinics that offer ibogaine can all
work from some people? Maybe some people respond well to St. Kitts, some to
Sara and Carl’s methods, others to whomever they find to help
administer/sit/guide? Wouldn’t a lot of the beneficial effects from ibogaine
result from the trust between sitter and “patient” for lack of a better
word?
Some people may feel that if they don’t pay $12,000 they aren’t getting
the real deal, and others may feel that if they have to pay anything, it
must be a scam, no? This is again a classic example of the variety of
methods used by folks to get “clean.”
IMOHO.
Just some thoughts on this rainy, explosion-stricken NYC this Thursday
morning…uh, I mean, early afternoon.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sara119” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 8:57 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] talk shit ,

We know quit a lot about St, Kidds ,those who don’t like D.M. superior
talk come here , and why should they pay 12,000$ IF everybody
have the same 100% detox rate ….if you go to slovenia pay only 1000$
England 600$ same same at the end you come out clean.
even if Carl would do the treatment for nothing the person will get clean ,
and I saw that happen many times , those who talk shit in the last
conference in London must have had a good time ,I know Henk did
enjoy your company ,Horny for fame and excitement .

may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,

everyone’s day will come , only if it was after taking Carl’s Iboga

that makes it bad , well they are more people who have a much better life
after taking that Iboga extract , who might have died on the street othewise
but then no body would care , just another junkie ,

I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure
I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard .
Talking shit about people isn’t my style , it isn’t what healing is about
sure doesn’t give anybody
a good Karma ,
talking about a price of a treatment is something else.

be well,

Sara

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Why Purkinje cells die?
Date: April 25, 2002 at 1:16:43 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Christ.In plain text,some purkinje cells die off after an ibogaine session,yes,(but they do regenerate in two or three weeks).So where is the problem?Now I have heard that this whole thing was used by Molliver et al to discourage the use of Ibogaine.Scaring people with “brain damage”…where have I seen that before? In papers on LSD,MDMA,THC etc,etc,ad nauseam.If things were that bad,Iboga had not been used for millennia in the Kongo.Breathing exhaust fumes for one day in a crowded city probably kills off more brain cells than a single exposure to Ibogaine,but those findings would not get publishing space in prestigous medical journals…
Carl

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Why Purkinje cells die?
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:51:41 EDT

Adv Neurol 2002;89:331-59

Why do Purkinje cells die so easily after global brain ischemia? Aldolase C,
EAAT4, and the cerebellar contribution to posthypoxic myoclonus.

Welsh JP, Yuen G, Placantonakis DG, Vu TQ, Haiss F, O’Hearn E, Molliver ME,
Aicher SA.

Neurological Sciences Institute, Oregon Health and Sciences University,
Beaverton, Oregon, USA.

The experiments strongly suggested that the reason why Purkinje cells die so
easily after global brain ischemia relates to deficiencies in aldolase C and
EAAT4 that allow them to survive pathologically intense synaptic input from
the inferior olive after the restoration of blood flow. This conclusion is
based on: (a) the remarkably tight correspondence between the regional
absence of aldolase C and EAAT4 in Purkinje cells and the patterned loss of
Purkinje cells after a bout of global brain ischemia; (b) the necessity of
the olivocerebellar pathway for the ischemic death of Purkinje cells; and (c)
the build-up of pathologically synchronous and high-frequency burst activity
within the inferior olive during recovery from ischemia. Indeed, the
correspondence between the absence of aldolase C and EAAT4 to sensitivity to
ischemia could be demonstrated for zones of Purkinje cells as small as two
neurons. A second finding was that Purkinje cells are not uniformly sensitive
to transient ischemia, since they die most frequently in zones where aldolase
C and EAAT4 are absent. One implication of the experiment is that factors
beyond the unique synaptic and membrane properties of Purkinje cells play an
important role in determining this neuron’s high sensitivity to ischemia. The
data strongly imply that two properties of Purkinje cells that make them
susceptible to ischemic death are their reduced capability to sequester
glutamate and reduced ability to generate energy during anoxia. The patterned
death of Purkinje cells is sufficient to induce a form of audiogenic
myoclonus, as determined with a neurotoxic dose of ibogaine. Ibogaine-induced
myoclonus is recognized behaviorally as a reduced ability to habituate to a
startle stimulus and resembles the myoclonic jerk of rats during recovery
from a prolonged bout of global brain ischemia. Commonalities of ischemia and
ibogaine-induced neurodegeneration are the intricately striped Purkinje cell
loss in the posterior lobe and a nearly complete deafferentation of the
lateral aspect of the fastigial nucleus from the cerebellar cortex, in
particular the dorsolateral protuberance. Thus, the data point strongly to a
cerebellar contribution to audiogenic myoclonus. Single-neuron
electrophysiology experiments in monkeys have demonstrated that the evoked
activity in the deep cerebellar nuclei occurs too late to initiate the
startle response (60) and electromyography of the postischemic myoclonus of
rats corroborates this view (see Chapter 31) (20). However, the nearly
complete loss of GABAergic terminals in the dorsolateral protuberance after
Purkinje cell death would be expected to dramatically increase its tonic
firing and the background excitation of the brain-stem structures that it
innervates. The fastigial nucleus innervates a large number of autonomic and
motor structures in the brainstem and diencephalon, including the
ventrolateral nucleus of the thalamus and the gigantocellular reticular
nucleus in the medulla–structures that have been implicated in human
posthypoxic myoclonus (6, 7). We propose that the posthypoxic myoclonic jerk
of rats is, at least in part, due to disinhibition of the fastigial nucleus
produced by patterned Purkinje cell death in the vermis. The argument is as
follows: the loss of GABAergic inhibition in the fastigial nucleus after
ischemia leads to diaschisis of the motor thalamus and reticular formation
which, in turn, is responsible for enhanced motor excitability and myoclonus.
That the audiogenic myoclonus after global brain ischemia in the rat
gradually resolves over a period of 2 to 3 weeks is consistent with this
view, as restoration of background excitability after CNS damage in rats has
been documented to occur within this time-frame (61). Our view brings
together the physiologic finding that posthypoxic myoclonus appears to
originate in the sensory-motor cortices and/or reticular formation with the
consistent anatomical finding of Purkinje cell loss after ischemia, and
explains the puzzle of Marsden’s unique cases of myoclonus associated with
coeliac disease (1). Moreover, our argument is consistent with findings both
in rats (62, 63) and humans (64) that damage to the vermis impairs the
long-term habituation of the startle reflex. It remains to be determined
whether the pathologically enhanced startle responses after vermal damage
resemble brain-stem reticular or cortical myoclonus at the electrophysiologic
level of analysis. What is the purpose of the regional expression of aldolase
C and EAAT4 in Purkinje cells? The close correspondence between the spatial
distribution of aldolase C and the parasagittal anatomy of the cerebellum
(48) has led to the view that aldolase C may help specify connectivity during
development. While the present experiments do not address this issue, they
underscore the fact that aldolase plays a fundamental role in metabolism.
Because Purkinje cells have a repressed expression of aldolase A (31),
whatever role the absence of aldolase C may play during development comes at
the price of metabolic frailty later in adulthood. From another point of
view, aldolase C and EAAT4 appear to confer upon Purkinje cells the ability
to survive their own climbing fiber. Indeed, climbing fibers form a
distributed synapse that synchronously releases glutamate (or aspartate) at
all levels of the dendritic tree simultaneously (65, 66). Such synchronous
activation triggers calcium influx throughout the Purkinje cell dendrites at
a magnitude that is unparalleled in the nervous system (12), and, thus,
places an extraordinarily high metabolic demand on the Purkinje cell. The
apparently reduced level of aldolase in a subpopulation of Purkinje cells
provides the condition for energy failure and death during anoxia so long as
the climbing fibers are intact or when climbing fiber activation is
pharmacologically enhanced under normoxic conditions, such as after ibogaine
(53-56). Lastly, the argument that diaschisis produced by patterned
cerebellar degeneration leads to thalamo-cortical and reticular
hyperexcitability agrees with C. David Marsden and his colleagues’ bold
demonstration of an inhibitory influence of cerebellar cortex on motor cortex
in humans (67). Our anatomic data indicate that the spatially distinct zones
of Purkinje cells, which are killed by global brain ischemia, may be the
origin of such inhibition.

PMID: 11968459 [PubMed – in process]

————————————————————————

 

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] talk shit ,
Date: April 25, 2002 at 1:00:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 02:57:46AM +0200], [sara119] wrote:

| and I saw that happen many times , those who talk shit in the last
| conference in London must have had a good time ,I know Henk did
| enjoy your company ,Horny for fame and excitement .
|
|  may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,
|
| everyone’s day will come , only if it was after taking Carl’s Iboga
|
| that makes it bad , well they are more people who have a much better life after taking that Iboga extract , who might have died on the street othewise but then no body would care , just another junkie ,
|
|  I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure
| I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard .
| Talking shit about people isn’t my style , it isn’t what healing is
| about sure doesn’t give anybody
|  a good Karma ,
|  talking about a price of a treatment is something else.

Sara…  I think, based upon my careful observations, it is the nature of
being human and alive and stuff, to talk shit sometimes…  Some people do
so more often than others…

Of course doing that, often leads to other people talking back at you…

I don’t have a problem with anybody for the most part, and think everybody
should go wherever the hell they want to go…  Whatever calls out to you,
whatever works with your financial resources, headspace and legal issues,
and brings you closer to where you’d like to be — wherever that is.

It has been my experience though, that when attempting to take the moral
higher ground, it’s a good idea to try not to trip, slip, and fall on your
ass…  It’s a very slippery slope.

peace,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 12:48:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 06:17:14AM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| Dear Patrick
| Who told you about the saucer repairs manual?
| That’s supposed to be classified…
| and what happened to my posting about:
| http://www.almartinraw.com/column56.html
| Looking forward to your proposed gathering of heads…
| (if I’m not on Sirius B repairing some goddamn saucer)
|                                               peace,Carl W.

Look, that’s it.  I give up, if you are missing any spare parts, perhaps
something can be found here:

http://www.crashdebris.com/

If you ever get it working, please lemme know.  I’d like to go for a ride!

peace,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 25, 2002 at 12:28:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 11:56:25AM -0700], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| From: jvsilverman@yahoo.com
| Reply-To: jvsilverman@yahoo.com
| To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
| Subject: Seattletimes.com: Fans gather to mourn troubled grunge
| singer Layne Staley, dead at 34
| Status:
|
| This message was sent to you by jvsilverman@yahoo.com, as a service
| of The Seattle Times (http://www.seattletimes.com).

I have not been paying attention, mahn…  That’s not exactly shocking
news, but still, truly sucks…  Alice in Chains rocked do0d…

bummer…

Patrick

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Shoulda Done Ibogaine
Date: April 25, 2002 at 2:56:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: jvsilverman@yahoo.com
Reply-To: jvsilverman@yahoo.com
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Subject: Seattletimes.com: Fans gather to mourn troubled grunge
singer Layne Staley, dead at 34
Status:

This message was sent to you by jvsilverman@yahoo.com, as a service
of The Seattle Times (http://www.seattletimes.com).

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 11:19:56 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Bill
Over and over again I have tried to make people understand that what I have been working with over the last eighteen years is an extract of the Iboga plant,NOT Ibogaine HCL,and that this extract differs from the HCL in its pharmacodynamic action.Using Ibogaine HCL for detox or addiction interruption is a procedure that requires rigorous clinical supervision by professional medical expertise and is,moreover a patented route and as such cannot be used without possible infringement of the rights of the patent holder(s),and therefore liable to arouse a lot of legal entanglements should it become more widespread.When I learned that this was so and that the clients had to come up with $12000 for a treatment I decided to make the said Iboga extract commercially available through an Internet shop named Indra so that the less wealthy could rig up some kind of alternative that would work on a large scale without earning the wrath of “authorities” or commercial interests etc.
(I also thought that I would make some money from the sales of the extract so that I could go on healing people gratis,as I have always done,but the boys who ran the Indra shop took it all for themselves,except five thousand dollars that I used for a trip to the U.S. and Mexico in 1999,and they have not given me anything but empty words since then,although they have no way of explaining to me where the four or five kiloes that they were given really went.I don’t think they gave it to rats,and as far as I know they are still selling the stuff and live in pleasant circumstances,while I have a very hard time indeed)
Then Sara in the Netherlands bought some of the stuff from me and found it easier to work with than the HCL & cheaper too and then we started to work together which we have done for some two years now but there were evil people who robbed her so now it is not so easy even if the clients get well,and the “authorities” give her no help or protection from criminals invading her house,and as most of the clients are broke she is now very worried because she has five kids to take care of as well as the clients and I am half dead from cancer in the pancreas and can not work anymore so much as I have before.My only concern now is to transmit to posterity what I have found in my life and I have five children of my own that I have not seen for years that would like to talk to before it is too late and I hope some one can help Sara to continue with her work.I don’t want to go into details about my clients and what happened in Cristiania Freetown in Denmark but it is true that I started with forty-four kiloes of this extract eighteen years ago and now I have about four kiloes left that I wish to work with on my own before I pass out.There may be some value in what I have written on the Internet over the years,I don’t know,but I have told the truth.
Carl W.

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:02:33 -0700 (PDT)

To be more specific, there were people who went to
S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like shit.

The only firsthand account I’ve seen (on the original ibogaine list)
said the St. Kitts operation was very caring but that the trust-fund
babies-of-all-ages who were the major amount of clients were such
hardcore cases that they returned to their superior (complaining)
attitudes shortly after treatment, in spite of good therapeutic
help being available.

I’ve got no axe to grind either way here, nor any experience with
junkies, but given what has been said about junkie psychology here,
I wonder if the people who claim they were treated like shit at
St. Kitts really were – Carl, is there any room for doubt? How many
are you talking about? Did they respond well to your treatment? If
you did better with them than St. Kitts, I wonder if the difference
is more due to conventional therapy vs. ?shamanistic? (or just
individualistic) approaches?

I recently got the Bwiti CD from the Library of Congress, and was
impressed by the notes by Fernandez and the amount of structure to
a Bwiti session that wasn’t obvious from other accounts that I’ve
read. So I’m considering the social aspects more, even though we
are somewhat used to considering the trip itself to be a unique
internal thing and ignoring the context.

Bill Ross

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “sara119” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] talk shit ,
Date: April 24, 2002 at 8:57:46 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We know quit a lot about St, Kidds ,those who don’t like D.M. superior
talk come here , and why should they pay 12,000$ IF everybody
have the same 100% detox rate ….if you go to slovenia pay only 1000$
England 600$ same same at the end you come out clean.
even if Carl would do the treatment for nothing the person will get clean ,
and I saw that happen many times , those who talk shit in the last conference in London must have had a good time ,I know Henk did
enjoy your company ,Horny for fame and excitement .

may be no one will die in st.kidds but sure they will die after ,

everyone’s day will come , only if it was after taking Carl’s Iboga

that makes it bad , well they are more people who have a much better life after taking that Iboga extract , who might have died on the street othewise but then no body would care , just another junkie ,

I know the vibes in this iboga “care taker community ” and sure
I’ll never come to a conference with you all ,Except for Howard .
Talking shit about people isn’t my style , it isn’t what healing is about sure doesn’t give anybody
a good Karma ,
talking about a price of a treatment is something else.

be well,

Sara

From: “sara119″ <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] Facilitator or miracle worker ,or both ?
Date: April 24, 2002 at 7:14:20 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi all ,

Nick wrote:
” If you do your best and people don’t get off, it’s no big deal,
you’re just a facilitator after all, not a miracle worker .”

If people don’t get off it is a big deal to me , I’ll try to help them anyway’s , I’ll help them only if they are open for it  , by giving them
my blessing and good energy share the pain and love with the purpose
of communication  and inspiration and maybe another treatment ,
It’s  Not about % or money but about their
well being , I’m not ” just a facilitator “and those who been here for
a longer treatment then 4 day’s will say that ,
those who just come for a 4 day’s treatment can say that ,
here are  just few letters ,

“Thank You & I cant believe my e-mail got through. Luv Ya
I will be in touch and if there is anything else I can do for you just ask.
Thank You for your friendship it’s one of few real things in life to be cherished and comforts me somehow. You are incredible women. I realize money isn’t everything but I have some things I am working on that will reap large dividends concerning my art and I will make the second donation to the cause.
PS. This site has all the info you will need”
http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/Psilocybin_Producer’s_Guide.10392.shtml

Dearest Sara,
you were telling me about this good times about to happen to me, well, excuse me for being a little cynical today but I’m getting pretty tired to all this shit, and completely sick of this, stuck up, pissy town, who only knows, to look down their nose at the struggling and homeless.
Here’s just the latest example.  I was playing song outside a mini-mall on thursday, when i noticed a lot of children playing on a play ground.  The Spirit of G-d impressed upon me to sing some children’s songs to em, well, i just finished the 2nd one when this police rolled up, and strip searched me, right there in front of all those kids.  Maybe it was good for them to see, to let them know where my nation and the world in general is headed.  Sara i’m just so tired and wish the our G-d would just take me home.  Pray for me ,, and think of something, as you do so often to lift me out of this dark cloud of depression i’m in right now.love earl   PS:  i’m sorry for being so selfish, how are you doing?

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
Dearest Sara,
Thank you for your words of hope and your prayers.  My spirit is much brighter today and our loving G-d has , as King David said, “created in me a clean heart, and renewed a right Spirit in me”, i prayed as he did, “cast me not away from your presence oh L-rd and take not Your Holy Spirit from me, restore in me the Joy of Your salvation, and renew a right Spirit with in me”!
I have to count my blessing more, isn’t our G-d good?  I am truely blessed with things money can’t buy.  My children, you as a good friend and all the poor and needy souls here, who if it wasn’t for my words of love and peace and hope to them, and other careing people with a real heart, might give up their hope and just jump off a bridge, to this towns shame!
As soon as i finish this e-mail i’m going to the Y.M.C.A. for my shower, and play on that side of town.  I love you Sara and my prayer i pray right now  is , ” Heavenly Father, i give you glory and praise , for one such as Sara, and dear L-rd, for the sake of Your promise to us as Your children, please bless Sara with so much Spiritual and Finical  blessing that she can’t even know he to give her excess to, for we Dearest L-rd know that , we are Your Hand and Your feet, and your eyes, For we as Your Eyes which look, compassion on this world, we are Your Feet to which walk to do good and Your Hands to which You bless all the earth.”  Love earl

It’s all about true love to humanity  to God creation and how we use
the tools He gave us for healing like pray ,herbs , peyote’s , knowledge and freedom to be, We all need healing all the time we all have to find out
our goals ,healing is a miracle that we are so used to ,that we don’t even look at it as miracle , But I see the miracle all the time .

the police took all my herb ,but today you can see new plants starting
to spruit , they will have to come everyday to weed my garden because from a seed will come a plant , That’s a miracle  .
Sara

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Why Purkinje cells die?
Date: April 25, 2002 at 8:51:41 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Adv Neurol 2002;89:331-59

Why do Purkinje cells die so easily after global brain ischemia? Aldolase C,
EAAT4, and the cerebellar contribution to posthypoxic myoclonus.

Welsh JP, Yuen G, Placantonakis DG, Vu TQ, Haiss F, O’Hearn E, Molliver ME,
Aicher SA.

Neurological Sciences Institute, Oregon Health and Sciences University,
Beaverton, Oregon, USA.

The experiments strongly suggested that the reason why Purkinje cells die so
easily after global brain ischemia relates to deficiencies in aldolase C and
EAAT4 that allow them to survive pathologically intense synaptic input from
the inferior olive after the restoration of blood flow. This conclusion is
based on: (a) the remarkably tight correspondence between the regional
absence of aldolase C and EAAT4 in Purkinje cells and the patterned loss of
Purkinje cells after a bout of global brain ischemia; (b) the necessity of
the olivocerebellar pathway for the ischemic death of Purkinje cells; and (c)
the build-up of pathologically synchronous and high-frequency burst activity
within the inferior olive during recovery from ischemia. Indeed, the
correspondence between the absence of aldolase C and EAAT4 to sensitivity to
ischemia could be demonstrated for zones of Purkinje cells as small as two
neurons. A second finding was that Purkinje cells are not uniformly sensitive
to transient ischemia, since they die most frequently in zones where aldolase
C and EAAT4 are absent. One implication of the experiment is that factors
beyond the unique synaptic and membrane properties of Purkinje cells play an
important role in determining this neuron’s high sensitivity to ischemia. The
data strongly imply that two properties of Purkinje cells that make them
susceptible to ischemic death are their reduced capability to sequester
glutamate and reduced ability to generate energy during anoxia. The patterned
death of Purkinje cells is sufficient to induce a form of audiogenic
myoclonus, as determined with a neurotoxic dose of ibogaine. Ibogaine-induced
myoclonus is recognized behaviorally as a reduced ability to habituate to a
startle stimulus and resembles the myoclonic jerk of rats during recovery
from a prolonged bout of global brain ischemia. Commonalities of ischemia and
ibogaine-induced neurodegeneration are the intricately striped Purkinje cell
loss in the posterior lobe and a nearly complete deafferentation of the
lateral aspect of the fastigial nucleus from the cerebellar cortex, in
particular the dorsolateral protuberance. Thus, the data point strongly to a
cerebellar contribution to audiogenic myoclonus. Single-neuron
electrophysiology experiments in monkeys have demonstrated that the evoked
activity in the deep cerebellar nuclei occurs too late to initiate the
startle response (60) and electromyography of the postischemic myoclonus of
rats corroborates this view (see Chapter 31) (20). However, the nearly
complete loss of GABAergic terminals in the dorsolateral protuberance after
Purkinje cell death would be expected to dramatically increase its tonic
firing and the background excitation of the brain-stem structures that it
innervates. The fastigial nucleus innervates a large number of autonomic and
motor structures in the brainstem and diencephalon, including the
ventrolateral nucleus of the thalamus and the gigantocellular reticular
nucleus in the medulla–structures that have been implicated in human
posthypoxic myoclonus (6, 7). We propose that the posthypoxic myoclonic jerk
of rats is, at least in part, due to disinhibition of the fastigial nucleus
produced by patterned Purkinje cell death in the vermis. The argument is as
follows: the loss of GABAergic inhibition in the fastigial nucleus after
ischemia leads to diaschisis of the motor thalamus and reticular formation
which, in turn, is responsible for enhanced motor excitability and myoclonus.
That the audiogenic myoclonus after global brain ischemia in the rat
gradually resolves over a period of 2 to 3 weeks is consistent with this
view, as restoration of background excitability after CNS damage in rats has
been documented to occur within this time-frame (61). Our view brings
together the physiologic finding that posthypoxic myoclonus appears to
originate in the sensory-motor cortices and/or reticular formation with the
consistent anatomical finding of Purkinje cell loss after ischemia, and
explains the puzzle of Marsden’s unique cases of myoclonus associated with
coeliac disease (1). Moreover, our argument is consistent with findings both
in rats (62, 63) and humans (64) that damage to the vermis impairs the
long-term habituation of the startle reflex. It remains to be determined
whether the pathologically enhanced startle responses after vermal damage
resemble brain-stem reticular or cortical myoclonus at the electrophysiologic
level of analysis. What is the purpose of the regional expression of aldolase
C and EAAT4 in Purkinje cells? The close correspondence between the spatial
distribution of aldolase C and the parasagittal anatomy of the cerebellum
(48) has led to the view that aldolase C may help specify connectivity during
development. While the present experiments do not address this issue, they
underscore the fact that aldolase plays a fundamental role in metabolism.
Because Purkinje cells have a repressed expression of aldolase A (31),
whatever role the absence of aldolase C may play during development comes at
the price of metabolic frailty later in adulthood. From another point of
view, aldolase C and EAAT4 appear to confer upon Purkinje cells the ability
to survive their own climbing fiber. Indeed, climbing fibers form a
distributed synapse that synchronously releases glutamate (or aspartate) at
all levels of the dendritic tree simultaneously (65, 66). Such synchronous
activation triggers calcium influx throughout the Purkinje cell dendrites at
a magnitude that is unparalleled in the nervous system (12), and, thus,
places an extraordinarily high metabolic demand on the Purkinje cell. The
apparently reduced level of aldolase in a subpopulation of Purkinje cells
provides the condition for energy failure and death during anoxia so long as
the climbing fibers are intact or when climbing fiber activation is
pharmacologically enhanced under normoxic conditions, such as after ibogaine
(53-56). Lastly, the argument that diaschisis produced by patterned
cerebellar degeneration leads to thalamo-cortical and reticular
hyperexcitability agrees with C. David Marsden and his colleagues’ bold
demonstration of an inhibitory influence of cerebellar cortex on motor cortex
in humans (67). Our anatomic data indicate that the spatially distinct zones
of Purkinje cells, which are killed by global brain ischemia, may be the
origin of such inhibition.

PMID: 11968459 [PubMed – in process]

————————————————————————

 

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 7:16:35 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you, Patrick, you spared me a lot of typing…

I think it’s OK to “advertise” certain facility (and all of them!) in mailing list (but not too often!! ;-)) – so people can find something that suits them. An old pesant saying in my country says “I have five fingers on my hand, and each is different” meaning in our context that everyone should take that detox which suits him/her. If someone has a lot of money and prefers medical setting then he/she can go to Panama or St. Kitts, others can choose Sara or Carl or Brian or whoever or anyone else (I think that Nick has quite a good site with treatment and other providers!). But I think it’s NOT OK to say that someone is better than others, or that one product is better than other without supporting that without a proof.

My wish is to have a place where people could stay at least for 2 months; taking Ibogaine upon arrival and having intensive psychosocial rehabilitation for the rest of staying. I’m quite sure that long-term success rate would be over 90%!!

And something about being crazy: I might be crazy, but I’m not stupid. (I usually say this when someone tells me that I’m crazy). And I prefer being crazy to being sane, if “sane” means what majority of sheep (sorry, I mean “people”) are.

😉
Marko

At 01:09 25.4.2002, you wrote:
On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:37:12PM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
| that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who
| went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like
| shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written down
| before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory
| serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to

Carl …  There is one diatribe from some disgruntled alcoholic who feels
that magic has not taken place.  I am cogent and aware that you do not
like St. Kitts, for whatever reasons you have.  For the most part this is
completely irrelevent, as you do not know anything about St. Kitts.

While I do not represent them, I am aware that for various reasons there
are a variety of persons who are no longer welcome there, and thus need to
find somewhere else to keep dosing themselves with ibogaine.  Unlike
various locations, they will not keep accepting people who have obvious
and extreme psychological disturbances, who are unlikely to be helped by
ibogaine in this regard.

People who are not welcome back, are likely to talk shit, and express
negative commentary.  C’est la’vie.

However … in general, it’s been my observation that whatever our
differences, our central belief is that ibogaine works; however you choose
to define “works.”  And there are a variety of locations on planet earth,
where those who would choose to partake of it, may avail themselves.

In general I believe this to be a GOOD THING.

I am unclear how tossing out various petty problems, and restarting the
infighting which has mostly faded over the course of the past several
years, is going to assist “our” primary goals of at the very least
promoting awareness of ibogaine.

NONE of this is directed at Sara, whom I don’t know very well, but hear
positive things about and believe to be a nice person doing what she
believes is good, to the best of her ability to do so.

Were I to do what you just did — toss out various hearsay, under the
guise of facts, I might have a few salient questions…  The “indra”
materials and what’s in them…  Well, I don’t know all facts and details
of all materials on planet earth which were originally created by you, but
I do know the lab analysis of 5 seperate lots thus far…  It isn’t
exactly inspirational…  I might ask if you’ve had success in dealing
with your own substance abuse problems…  I could question the abilities
of a “guide” who appears to be suffering psychotic breaks on a regular
basis; and how this person is going to help anyone maintain any sort of
positive state, which they themselves are not in…

But I won’t.  Because it’s all just hearsay, so why bother.

Pardon me, I’m sorry, I’m probably wrong, and have simply forgotten that
the Inner People of the Outer Planes, dropped a Transdimensional Gate in
your living room — while they were storing some left over UFO parts in
the basement — allowing you All Knowledge of All Things, on This Plane,
and many others…

Which is a long way of saying: dude, chill out.  If you wanna promote
yourself, your materials, Sara, it’s all-good.  I don’t think anyone has
problems with that — I certainly don’t.  But restarting petty bullshit
based upon nonsense, isn’t exactly helpful.

Whatever you may say, or feel about St. Kitts…  Nobody has ever died
there, and no one ever will.  This claim cannot be made of people
self-dosing with your materials.

| keep in touch with former clients and,while they would like to remain
| anonymous,most of them stay clean.Of course it is one thing to eliminate
| acute withdrawal symptoms regarding opiates,and there we may all have a
| 100% success rate,quite another thing to inspire people to start a new
| life.As Sara has used Iboga for a wide variety of drug problems and not
| only as an opiod withdrawal eliminating remedy,and the 90% success rate
| that I referred to was not about the few days the clients stayed in her
| house,it is in my view not only due to the pharmacodynamics,and what I have
| tried to point out is that something more than the specific action of
| Ibogaine is needed to achieve lasting good results.The reason I wrote the

Well duh.  That’s the whole “aftercare” issue/question, and whether or not
any particular modality can prove more beneficial than others, when a
person is unsprung and in a non drug-dependent state.

The 90% success figures are nonsense.  Anybody who makes such claims is
engaged in wishful thinking.  I would rate the DETOX rate at 100%, what
happens afterwards is all over the map.  And the truth is, YOU have NO WAY
of knowing.  Because no one does.  You may or may not run into various
people a few years down the line, ask “hey, how’re you?”  And depending on
their mood the answer can be almost anything.  It also has absolutely
nothing to do with “reality” and whether or not they are drug free.

You dunno dude.  Nobody does.  The closest anyone comes IS at St. Kitts,
where there are resources to track what actually happens to various
people, and obtain data.  Not lines of bullshit.

Again, I apologize, perhaps you have Alien Technology, not available to
others, which allows you to do Remote Viewing and Gather Data, in which
case I am completely wrong.

| thing in the first place was because I wanted to see an overall improvement
| in the quality of the experienced content so that clients don’t relapse
| into addictive routine perception and that therapists handle the stuff in a
| truly enlightened manner,and,above all that people who give the stuff to
| others know how it feels to take it.We are not working in a gas station.

No we’re not…  I think the general goal IS improvement of long-term
effects for persons who no longer wish to be drug-dependent.

How what you’re doing is supposed to further these goals, I am unclear.

Patrick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 6:26:20 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
that
there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who went
to
S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like shit.Yes I
have
the balls to stand up for that and it has been written down before in the
other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory serves you well
you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to keep in touch
with
former clients and,while they would like to remain anonymous,most of them
stay clean.Of course it is one thing to eliminate acute withdrawal
symptoms
regarding opiates,and there we may all have a 100% success rate,quite
another thing to inspire people to start a new life.As Sara has used Iboga
for a wide variety of drug problems and not only as an opiod withdrawal
eliminating remedy,and the 90% success rate that I referred to was not
about
the few days the clients stayed in her house,it is in my view not only due
to the pharmacodynamics,and what I have tried to point out is that
something
more than the specific action of Ibogaine is needed to achieve lasting
good
results.The reason I wrote the thing in the first place was because I
wanted
to see an overall improvement in the quality of the experienced content so
that clients don’t relapse into addictive routine perception and that
therapists handle the stuff in a truly enlightened manner,and,above all
that
people who give the stuff to others know how it feels to take it.We are
not
working in a gas station.
Carl

Personally, I’d be very skeptical of anyone claiming to get 90% results with
ibogaine over time. This based on my own limited personal use and limited
treating of others AND on the number of emails and other communications I
get back through my site from people who’ve been treated in Holland and all
over the world.

People making such claims might be well meaning, but I don’t think it
achieves much. Generally, I figure they have a psychological NEED to believe
they are the administrator of some kind of wondrous healing balm, they NEED
to believe ibogaine is a wonder cure. In short, they are exteriorizing THEIR
own need for healing and so constantly experience a need to heal OTHER
PEOPLE. The fear repressed within, the stuff of their own they don’t want to
look at, means they NEED to believe ibogaine works and so resist any
suggestion that things might not be quite as rosy as they make out.

Imo, it’s real good not to get CAUGHT UP IN RESULTS with something like
ibogaine. If you do your best and people don’t get off, it’s no big deal,
you’re just a facilitator after all, not a miracle worker. I’d say 40% at 6
months post treatment would be a great result. And you’d get to stay real
into the bargain.

Just my 2c

Nick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine history
Date: April 25, 2002 at 5:21:20 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Elsevier Science has authorized the publication of “A Contemporary History of
Ibogaine the United States and Europe” Chapter 14 , Volume 56, The Alkaloids:
Ibogaine: Proceedings of the first international Conference.  The Editors are
Cordell,   Alper and Glick.  The work is diverse and interesting.  Anyone”s
cup of tea or whatever you take in the morning to last you all day.

Since the article talks about just about everyone it should be good for
conversation.

Have fun.

<www.ibogaine.org/whatsnew.html>
or
<www.ibogaine.desk.nl/whatsnew.html>

Howard
_

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 2:17:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: digital@phantom.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Patrick
Who told you about the saucer repairs manual?
That’s supposed to be classified…
and what happened to my posting about:
http://www.almartinraw.com/column56.html
Looking forward to your proposed gathering of heads…
(if I’m not on Sirius B repairing some goddamn saucer)
peace,Carl W.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 01:35:28 -0400

On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:36:40PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| Well, were that there were more crazy people then, if my very short-term
| knowing Patrick is any indication of what to expect from crazies.;-))))
|     Thank goodness he’s not ‘normal’ either. Can’t say I actually know too
| many of that type anyway.
|     Sorry all, I realize that once again, I’m posting completely off topic
| of ibogaine.
|     And, btw, did anyone have any comments on my pet questions from earlier
| today?
|     Peace, and joy,
|     Preston

Laughing…  Hey, thanks Preston, the feeling is very mutual…  I dunno,
I’ve heard that accusation pointed in my direction so many thousands of
times, that perhaps there is some truth to it; perhaps it’s all a point of
view, I dunno, but it’s no longer one of the things I worry about.

Although, your question was interesting…  My experiences while being
altered and around animals, are pretty much dogs appear to be highly in
sync with where you are at…  cats have been all over the spectrum for
me, ranging from throwing themselves down and purring, to hissing and
spitting and bailing…  Perhaps related to my states of mind at the
time…

too cool, I have a bright glow in the dark green lizard walking up my
wall…  This is one thing I like about Miami a lot, you open a door
or office at like 1am, and instead of the cockroach scene that greets you
in NYC, there is like a horde of little lizards which spin off in all
directions and scatter…

If St. Kitts mysteriously vanished, where would I dose…  Hum… well, I
absolutely, positively and without a doubt wouldn’t do it in the US, in
the comfort of my own place, because obviously this violates national
security, is super-naughty, highly bad, and very illegal…  So, uhm, my
primary interest would be knowing the origin of the materials, wanting
HCL, and selecting my own dose (within reason, I ain’t gonna kill myself,
but I wanna go buh-bye into neverland)…  The secondary concern would be
the set, setting, vibe, where and who, of the situation.  So what applies
for me personally would not necessarily matter to anyone else.  All this
means that me, myself, and I, would probably go and become a priest in
Marko’s cool religion, and/or hang with Hattie for a while…  Simply
because I know and like both of them, would feel comfortable and safe
there while tripping — I meant to say, experiencing spiritual
realignment, and getting a tuneup — and wouldn’t have my head filled with
thoughts like, “I am NOT tripping here, they’re gonna try to kill me while
i’m under and then just get rid of my body, fuck this, what was I
thinking, I gotta get out of here now…  Shit.. I can’t feel my body or
move and have severe ataxia…”

I guess it just amounts to being with people whose headspace I would not
mind sharing in that kinda way…  Perhaps we should gather Dave, Marko,
Nick, Dana, Howard, Preston, Francis =), Hattie, Drew, Bruce — who I will
kidnap for his own good, and Bill, and yes Carl, because Carl needs a
great big hug, and to set down the UFO repair manuals, and Sara, and b0b!,
and Andria, and Brian, because Brian desperately needs to DO some
ibogaine, and Jon, and the people from the east, the west, the north, the
south, those living inside the earth’s core, and in outer space, and
everybody who I forgot because I’m fried right now, like all the chicks
whose names start with the letter “C” and email from yahoo, and just have
a great big giant Be In, man, radiating good vibes and celestial harmony
in all directions.

Err, excuse me, I meant to say, ignore all that, it’s crazy talk.  But
everything prior to the last paragraph applies, except for that stuff
about dogs and cats, which I never said, at all.  Although John Lilly
tripped a lot while getting in touch with Dolphins.  And wrote quite a bit
about his experiences.

That’s it then.  And…  the lizard has stopped moving up my wall and is
either asleep, or just Being Zen.

g’night,

Patrick

p.s., wow, that was just Too Much positive energy, if the shooting range
were open I’d wake up Dr. Doom (who would be at the Be In as well) and go
fire automatic weapons into targets.

p.s., part II:  Plus, also, though, to mention: my relationship with
ibogaine and what it is, has changed considerably from where I started.
Were I strung out, all these questions would be totally pointless…
“Where do I want to dose and with who?  What’re you fucking kidding me?
Gimme the shit and I’ll dose in the mens room of a goddamn gas station, I
gotta get unsprung.”

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 1:35:28 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 11:36:40PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| Well, were that there were more crazy people then, if my very short-term
| knowing Patrick is any indication of what to expect from crazies.;-))))
|     Thank goodness he’s not ‘normal’ either. Can’t say I actually know too
| many of that type anyway.
|     Sorry all, I realize that once again, I’m posting completely off topic
| of ibogaine.
|     And, btw, did anyone have any comments on my pet questions from earlier
| today?
|     Peace, and joy,
|     Preston

Laughing…  Hey, thanks Preston, the feeling is very mutual…  I dunno,
I’ve heard that accusation pointed in my direction so many thousands of
times, that perhaps there is some truth to it; perhaps it’s all a point of
view, I dunno, but it’s no longer one of the things I worry about.

Although, your question was interesting…  My experiences while being
altered and around animals, are pretty much dogs appear to be highly in
sync with where you are at…  cats have been all over the spectrum for
me, ranging from throwing themselves down and purring, to hissing and
spitting and bailing…  Perhaps related to my states of mind at the
time…

too cool, I have a bright glow in the dark green lizard walking up my
wall…  This is one thing I like about Miami a lot, you open a door
or office at like 1am, and instead of the cockroach scene that greets you
in NYC, there is like a horde of little lizards which spin off in all
directions and scatter…

If St. Kitts mysteriously vanished, where would I dose…  Hum… well, I
absolutely, positively and without a doubt wouldn’t do it in the US, in
the comfort of my own place, because obviously this violates national
security, is super-naughty, highly bad, and very illegal…  So, uhm, my
primary interest would be knowing the origin of the materials, wanting
HCL, and selecting my own dose (within reason, I ain’t gonna kill myself,
but I wanna go buh-bye into neverland)…  The secondary concern would be
the set, setting, vibe, where and who, of the situation.  So what applies
for me personally would not necessarily matter to anyone else.  All this
means that me, myself, and I, would probably go and become a priest in
Marko’s cool religion, and/or hang with Hattie for a while…  Simply
because I know and like both of them, would feel comfortable and safe
there while tripping — I meant to say, experiencing spiritual
realignment, and getting a tuneup — and wouldn’t have my head filled with
thoughts like, “I am NOT tripping here, they’re gonna try to kill me while
i’m under and then just get rid of my body, fuck this, what was I
thinking, I gotta get out of here now…  Shit.. I can’t feel my body or
move and have severe ataxia…”

I guess it just amounts to being with people whose headspace I would not
mind sharing in that kinda way…  Perhaps we should gather Dave, Marko,
Nick, Dana, Howard, Preston, Francis =), Hattie, Drew, Bruce — who I will
kidnap for his own good, and Bill, and yes Carl, because Carl needs a
great big hug, and to set down the UFO repair manuals, and Sara, and b0b!,
and Andria, and Brian, because Brian desperately needs to DO some
ibogaine, and Jon, and the people from the east, the west, the north, the
south, those living inside the earth’s core, and in outer space, and
everybody who I forgot because I’m fried right now, like all the chicks
whose names start with the letter “C” and email from yahoo, and just have
a great big giant Be In, man, radiating good vibes and celestial harmony
in all directions.

Err, excuse me, I meant to say, ignore all that, it’s crazy talk.  But
everything prior to the last paragraph applies, except for that stuff
about dogs and cats, which I never said, at all.  Although John Lilly
tripped a lot while getting in touch with Dolphins.  And wrote quite a bit
about his experiences.

That’s it then.  And…  the lizard has stopped moving up my wall and is
either asleep, or just Being Zen.

g’night,

Patrick

p.s., wow, that was just Too Much positive energy, if the shooting range
were open I’d wake up Dr. Doom (who would be at the Be In as well) and go
fire automatic weapons into targets.

p.s., part II:  Plus, also, though, to mention: my relationship with
ibogaine and what it is, has changed considerably from where I started.
Were I strung out, all these questions would be totally pointless…
“Where do I want to dose and with who?  What’re you fucking kidding me?
Gimme the shit and I’ll dose in the mens room of a goddamn gas station, I
gotta get unsprung.”

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 11:36:40 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well, were that there were more crazy people then, if my very short-term
knowing Patrick is any indication of what to expect from crazies.;-))))
Thank goodness he’s not ‘normal’ either. Can’t say I actually know too
many of that type anyway.
Sorry all, I realize that once again, I’m posting completely off topic
of ibogaine.
And, btw, did anyone have any comments on my pet questions from earlier
today?
Peace, and joy,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carrie Rollins” <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

I’m the one who said that a few weeks ago! I think i’m one of more then a
few.
http://www.mindvox.com should explain most of it 😉
Maybe not crazy but not normal either.
Whatever that means.
In relation to what’s on this particular list he’s very normal 😉
-carrie
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
why do so many people keep referring to Patrick as CRAZY? (I know this
isn’t
the first time I’ve seen this, but can’t specifically point to other
references at this time) I mean, I’ve only been corresponding with him a
short while, but while obviously very smart, funny and a real pleasure for
me to have made the acquaintance of, what exactly is it, besides his
weirdly
erratic capitalizing of letter, that makes him crazy?
Peace,

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Crazy?
Date: April 24, 2002 at 11:29:00 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In who’s institutions, and to what end? To keep society safe from us, or to
help us fit in as cog people?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Mattias Enzer” <mattias2002@lawyer.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:36 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Crazy?

FWIW nearly all of you need to be institutionalized.

Cheers,

Mattias

_______________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 11:26:37 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL Dana, oh, duh, of course. I thought perhaps there was some sort of REAL
craziness in Patrick, rather than ibogaine-affiliation slander and slurs. Ah
well.
Hagar says you’re crazy Dana? Uh-oh.
But come to think of it, it wasn’t Stroup, Hagar, Soros or Drug Policy
Alliance calling Patrick crazy, it’s been people participating in this
ibogaine list.
So I’m still wondering if there’s something about Patrick I’m missing.
Patrick? Any ideas?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

why do so many people keep referring to Patrick as CRAZY? (I know this
isn’t
the first time I’ve seen this, but can’t specifically point to other
references at this time) I mean, I’ve only been corresponding with him a
short while, but while obviously very smart, funny and a real pleasure
for
me to have made the acquaintance of, what exactly is it, besides his
weirdly
erratic capitalizing of letter, that makes him crazy?
Peace,
Preston

Come on Preston: NORML, Soros’s Drug Policy Alliance, and Steve Hagar
ALL say I’M crazy.

It’s obvious, according to Keith Stroup:

“The whole Ibogaine thing proves he’s crazy.”

–Keith Stroup, surreptitiously overheard berating Chris Sanders of
the International Cannabis Coalition (London) for working with Cures
not Wars in New York.

Obviously, the Ibogaine thing proves Kroupa’s crazy as well.

He agrees with me.

QED.

Dana/cnw

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 25, 2002 at 2:13:30 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

why do so many people keep referring to Patrick as CRAZY? (I know this isn’t
the first time I’ve seen this, but can’t specifically point to other
references at this time) I mean, I’ve only been corresponding with him a
short while, but while obviously very smart, funny and a real pleasure for
me to have made the acquaintance of, what exactly is it, besides his weirdly
erratic capitalizing of letter, that makes him crazy?
Peace,
Preston

Come on Preston: NORML, Soros’s Drug Policy Alliance, and Steve Hagar
ALL say I’M crazy.

It’s obvious, according to Keith Stroup:

“The whole Ibogaine thing proves he’s crazy.”

–Keith Stroup, surreptitiously overheard berating Chris Sanders of
the International Cannabis Coalition (London) for working with Cures
not Wars in New York.

Obviously, the Ibogaine thing proves Kroupa’s crazy as well.

He agrees with me.

QED.

Dana/cnw

From: “Mattias Enzer” <mattias2002@lawyer.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Crazy?
Date: April 24, 2002 at 10:36:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

FWIW nearly all of you need to be institutionalized.

Cheers,

Mattias

_______________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 10:12:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m the one who said that a few weeks ago! I think i’m one of more then a few.
http://www.mindvox.com should explain most of it 😉
Maybe not crazy but not normal either.
Whatever that means.
In relation to what’s on this particular list he’s very normal 😉
-carrie
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
why do so many people keep referring to Patrick as CRAZY? (I know this isn’t
the first time I’ve seen this, but can’t specifically point to other
references at this time) I mean, I’ve only been corresponding with him a
short while, but while obviously very smart, funny and a real pleasure for
me to have made the acquaintance of, what exactly is it, besides his weirdly
erratic capitalizing of letter, that makes him crazy?
Peace,
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 8:46:24 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

why do so many people keep referring to Patrick as CRAZY? (I know this isn’t
the first time I’ve seen this, but can’t specifically point to other
references at this time) I mean, I’ve only been corresponding with him a
short while, but while obviously very smart, funny and a real pleasure for
me to have made the acquaintance of, what exactly is it, besides his weirdly
erratic capitalizing of letter, that makes him crazy?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts

I haven’t been reading ibogaine things long enough to have heard all that
which Bill said, but from reading heroin times there’s that lady going off
about people who dosed her in a hotel in NY, which is the same story that is
now on heroinhelper now that I’ve started reading hh when I learned that it
existed from the posts on this list, except it was rewritten without the
names.

I’m getting the idea there are more then a few unhappy ibogaine users who
are going off on almost everybody involved in the ibogaine scene. I’m still
waiting for Andre Chavez to come back and gush some more 🙂

Patrick that was funny 🙂 I’m veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy curious, if St. Kitts
didn’t exist and you didn’t know Dr. Mash and needed to do ibogaine. Where
would you go? I’d really like to hear that, your a strange combination of
qualities but you’re really smart, ibogaine worked for you and even if you
are crazy you at least look like you know it and pull it all in and deal
with reality. Whatever your problems you’re not having a pychotic break 🙂

Carla B

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002
at 10:37:12PM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
| that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who
| went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like
| shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written
down
| before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory
| serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to

Carl … There is one diatribe from some disgruntled alcoholic who feels
that magic has not taken place. I am cogent and aware that you do not
like St. Kitts, for whatever reasons you have. For the most part this is
completely irrelevent, as you do not know anything about St. Kitts.

While I do not represent them, I am aware that for various reasons there
are a variety of persons who are no longer welcome there, and thus need to
find somewhere else to keep dosing themselves with ibogaine. Unlike
various locations, they will not keep accepting people who have obvious
and extreme psychological disturbances, who are unlikely to be helped by
ibogaine in this regard.

People who are not welcome back, are likely to talk shit, and express
negative commentary. C’est la’vie.

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 8:27:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I haven’t been reading ibogaine things long enough to have heard all that which Bill said, but from reading heroin times there’s that lady going off about people who dosed her in a hotel in NY, which is the same story that is now on heroinhelper now that I’ve started reading hh when I learned that it existed from the posts on this list, except it was rewritten without the names.
I’m getting the idea there are more then a few unhappy ibogaine users who are going off on almost everybody involved in the ibogaine scene. I’m still waiting for Andre Chavez to come back and gush some more 🙂
Patrick that was funny 🙂 I’m veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy curious, if St. Kitts didn’t exist and you didn’t know Dr. Mash and needed to do ibogaine. Where would you go? I’d really like to hear that, your a strange combination of qualities but you’re really smart, ibogaine worked for you and even if you are crazy you at least look like you know it and pull it all in and deal with reality. Whatever your problems you’re not having a pychotic break 🙂
Carla B
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:37:12PM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
| that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who
| went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like
| shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written down
| before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory
| serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to

Carl … There is one diatribe from some disgruntled alcoholic who feels
that magic has not taken place. I am cogent and aware that you do not
like St. Kitts, for whatever reasons you have. For the most part this is
completely irrelevent, as you do not know anything about St. Kitts.

While I do not represent them, I am aware that for various reasons there
are a variety of persons who are no longer welcome there, and thus need to
find somewhere else to keep dosing themselves with ibogaine. Unlike
various locations, they will not keep accepting people who have obvious
and extreme psychological disturbances, who are unlikely to be helped by
ibogaine in this regard.

People who are not welcome back, are likely to talk shit, and express
negative commentary. C’est la’vie.

 

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 7:09:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:37:12PM +0000], [Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg] wrote:

| All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is
| that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who
| went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like
| shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written down
| before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory
| serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to

Carl …  There is one diatribe from some disgruntled alcoholic who feels
that magic has not taken place.  I am cogent and aware that you do not
like St. Kitts, for whatever reasons you have.  For the most part this is
completely irrelevent, as you do not know anything about St. Kitts.

While I do not represent them, I am aware that for various reasons there
are a variety of persons who are no longer welcome there, and thus need to
find somewhere else to keep dosing themselves with ibogaine.  Unlike
various locations, they will not keep accepting people who have obvious
and extreme psychological disturbances, who are unlikely to be helped by
ibogaine in this regard.

People who are not welcome back, are likely to talk shit, and express
negative commentary.  C’est la’vie.

However … in general, it’s been my observation that whatever our
differences, our central belief is that ibogaine works; however you choose
to define “works.”  And there are a variety of locations on planet earth,
where those who would choose to partake of it, may avail themselves.

In general I believe this to be a GOOD THING.

I am unclear how tossing out various petty problems, and restarting the
infighting which has mostly faded over the course of the past several
years, is going to assist “our” primary goals of at the very least
promoting awareness of ibogaine.

NONE of this is directed at Sara, whom I don’t know very well, but hear
positive things about and believe to be a nice person doing what she
believes is good, to the best of her ability to do so.

Were I to do what you just did — toss out various hearsay, under the
guise of facts, I might have a few salient questions…  The “indra”
materials and what’s in them…  Well, I don’t know all facts and details
of all materials on planet earth which were originally created by you, but
I do know the lab analysis of 5 seperate lots thus far…  It isn’t
exactly inspirational…  I might ask if you’ve had success in dealing
with your own substance abuse problems…  I could question the abilities
of a “guide” who appears to be suffering psychotic breaks on a regular
basis; and how this person is going to help anyone maintain any sort of
positive state, which they themselves are not in…

But I won’t.  Because it’s all just hearsay, so why bother.

Pardon me, I’m sorry, I’m probably wrong, and have simply forgotten that
the Inner People of the Outer Planes, dropped a Transdimensional Gate in
your living room — while they were storing some left over UFO parts in
the basement — allowing you All Knowledge of All Things, on This Plane,
and many others…

Which is a long way of saying: dude, chill out.  If you wanna promote
yourself, your materials, Sara, it’s all-good.  I don’t think anyone has
problems with that — I certainly don’t.  But restarting petty bullshit
based upon nonsense, isn’t exactly helpful.

Whatever you may say, or feel about St. Kitts…  Nobody has ever died
there, and no one ever will.  This claim cannot be made of people
self-dosing with your materials.

| keep in touch with former clients and,while they would like to remain
| anonymous,most of them stay clean.Of course it is one thing to eliminate
| acute withdrawal symptoms regarding opiates,and there we may all have a
| 100% success rate,quite another thing to inspire people to start a new
| life.As Sara has used Iboga for a wide variety of drug problems and not
| only as an opiod withdrawal eliminating remedy,and the 90% success rate
| that I referred to was not about the few days the clients stayed in her
| house,it is in my view not only due to the pharmacodynamics,and what I have
| tried to point out is that something more than the specific action of
| Ibogaine is needed to achieve lasting good results.The reason I wrote the

Well duh.  That’s the whole “aftercare” issue/question, and whether or not
any particular modality can prove more beneficial than others, when a
person is unsprung and in a non drug-dependent state.

The 90% success figures are nonsense.  Anybody who makes such claims is
engaged in wishful thinking.  I would rate the DETOX rate at 100%, what
happens afterwards is all over the map.  And the truth is, YOU have NO WAY
of knowing.  Because no one does.  You may or may not run into various
people a few years down the line, ask “hey, how’re you?”  And depending on
their mood the answer can be almost anything.  It also has absolutely
nothing to do with “reality” and whether or not they are drug free.

You dunno dude.  Nobody does.  The closest anyone comes IS at St. Kitts,
where there are resources to track what actually happens to various
people, and obtain data.  Not lines of bullshit.

Again, I apologize, perhaps you have Alien Technology, not available to
others, which allows you to do Remote Viewing and Gather Data, in which
case I am completely wrong.

| thing in the first place was because I wanted to see an overall improvement
| in the quality of the experienced content so that clients don’t relapse
| into addictive routine perception and that therapists handle the stuff in a
| truly enlightened manner,and,above all that people who give the stuff to
| others know how it feels to take it.We are not working in a gas station.

No we’re not…  I think the general goal IS improvement of long-term
effects for persons who no longer wish to be drug-dependent.

How what you’re doing is supposed to further these goals, I am unclear.

Patrick

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 7:02:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To be more specific, there were people who went to
S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like shit.

The only firsthand account I’ve seen (on the original ibogaine list)
said the St. Kitts operation was very caring but that the trust-fund
babies-of-all-ages who were the major amount of clients were such
hardcore cases that they returned to their superior (complaining)
attitudes shortly after treatment, in spite of good therapeutic
help being available.

I’ve got no axe to grind either way here, nor any experience with
junkies, but given what has been said about junkie psychology here,
I wonder if the people who claim they were treated like shit at
St. Kitts really were – Carl, is there any room for doubt? How many
are you talking about? Did they respond well to your treatment? If
you did better with them than St. Kitts, I wonder if the difference
is more due to conventional therapy vs. ?shamanistic? (or just
individualistic) approaches?

I recently got the Bwiti CD from the Library of Congress, and was
impressed by the notes by Fernandez and the amount of structure to
a Bwiti session that wasn’t obvious from other accounts that I’ve
read. So I’m considering the social aspects more, even though we
are somewhat used to considering the trip itself to be a unique
internal thing and ignoring the context.

Bill Ross

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] questions about pets and perseption
Date: April 24, 2002 at 6:42:56 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI all,
I realize this is pretty off topic on a list about ibogaine, but I
couldn’t think of where else to ask such a question:

Has anyone else ever noticed that while tripping, (which of course I would
never do at this very moment-lol) their pets seem to react very oddly? That
they almost seem to be tripping too?
Please excuse this off the wall topic, but as noted, where else could I ask
such a question?
Do animals always trip? Are they in this same point all the time? Are they
really seeing the same thing I am, which it appears sometimes they do, as
they will suddenly be staring off at the same time I am, watching whatever
it is they see?
Just curious if anyone else has noticed this interesting side effect of
psychedelics.
Peace, and lots of joy,
Preston

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 6:37:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: sara119@xs4all.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All right Marko,as you can read in my previous statement what I mean is that there have been failures.To be more specific, there were people who went to S:t Kitts,paid twelve thousand dollars and were treated like shit.Yes I have the balls to stand up for that and it has been written down before in the other Ibogaine list now hosted by calyx and if your memory serves you well you know that I am speaking the truth.As for me I try to keep in touch with former clients and,while they would like to remain anonymous,most of them stay clean.Of course it is one thing to eliminate acute withdrawal symptoms regarding opiates,and there we may all have a 100% success rate,quite another thing to inspire people to start a new life.As Sara has used Iboga for a wide variety of drug problems and not only as an opiod withdrawal eliminating remedy,and the 90% success rate that I referred to was not about the few days the clients stayed in her house,it is in my view not only due to the pharmacodynamics,and what I have tried to point out is that something more than the specific action of Ibogaine is needed to achieve lasting good results.The reason I wrote the thing in the first place was because I wanted to see an overall improvement in the quality of the experienced content so that clients don’t relapse into addictive routine perception and that therapists handle the stuff in a truly enlightened manner,and,above all that people who give the stuff to others know how it feels to take it.We are not working in a gas station.
Carl

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:09:28 +0200

Hi Sara,

sorry, but I expect Carl to answer this question; “Why is it that Sara in
the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her clients and others are not
so successful? is his statement and I’m sure that he has enough bolls to
point to “them”.

Carl?

Marko

At 00:12 1.5.2002, you wrote:
who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] [sharon@TheAdvocates.org: New civil liberties crisis and what you can do about it]
Date: April 24, 2002 at 12:50:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: sharon@TheAdvocates.org
Subject: New civil liberties crisis and what you can do about it
Date: April 23, 2002 at 9:03:34 PM EDT
To: liberator@TheAdvocates.org
Reply-To: Advocates@self-gov.org

Hi!

PLEASE NOTE: This email is longer than I would like it to be. But
because I know you’re a friend of liberty, I think you’ll find it well
worth reading.

[If you prefer to read this online and typeset, please go here:
http://www.theadvocates.org/letter.php?afid=22363 .]

This letter contains some shocking news you need to know, and some
exciting good news as well.

It covers:

* An emerging — and alarming — major new civil liberties crisis in
America;
* Startling quotes from prominent Americans about the new civil
liberties crisis we are facing (one U.S. Congressman is warning
that America could become “a police state”);
* Details on an exciting new Advocates program designed to quickly
inform tens of thousands of Americans about the new threats to our
freedom — and to enlist them in fighting for liberty!
* An opportunity for YOU to take part in this new effort;
* Reasons for optimism (needed during these troubling times!);
* The latest figures on some major Advocates projects and programs;
* A chance for you to receive some great gifts;
* …and more news and opinion of great interest to friends of
liberty.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and consider it! — Sharon
________________________________________________________

Dear friend of liberty,

I won’t mince words.

I’m not being alarmist — but I AM sounding an alarm.

This is a dire time for civil liberties in America.

Voices from across the political spectrum are warning us that our
precious Bill of Rights liberties and other freedoms are facing the
gravest threat in generations.

A few prominent examples:

The ACLU says we’re facing: “…one of the most serious civil
liberties crises our nation has ever seen.”

NRA spokesman Wayne LaPierre says: “We’ve witnessed a fire sale of
American liberties at bargain basement prices, in return for the false
promise of more security…The America being designed right now won’t
resemble the America we’ve been defending…The danger isn’t that Big
Brother may storm the castle gates. The danger is that Americans don’t
realize that he is already inside the castle walls.”

The Electronic Frontier Foundation warns: “The civil liberties of
ordinary Americans have taken a tremendous blow…”

Congressman Ron Paul — the only libertarian in Congress — says: “Our
forefathers would think it’s time for a revolution. This is why they
revolted in the first place…They revolted against much more mild
oppression.” And: “A danger also exists that the United States is
becoming a police state.”

And that’s just a small sampling.

Let me add my voice to those above: I think right now we are facing
the gravest threats to American liberty I’ve seen in my three decades
of political activism.

A TIME FOR ACTION — AND HOPE

I’m going to tell you some more about these grave threats to our
liberty — including some shocking things you may not know about.

It’s not pretty. But if you love America, and love liberty, you need
to know these things.

But first, let me assure you: this is NOT a gloom-and-doom email.

I remain optimistic about the future for liberty in America and the
world. In just a few moments, I’ll tell you why.

I’ll also tell you what YOU can do RIGHT NOW to stay informed and take
action on these issues. I’ll tell you how you can join today’s Patrick
Henrys, Thomas Jeffersons and Paul Reveres in striking a powerful blow
for liberty.

So take heart — there’s hope and reasons for optimism.

But first — the Crisis.

THE EXPLOSION OF PHONY “ANTI-TERRORIST” LEGISLATION

Like every decent person, I was horrified and outraged by the events
of September 11.

But I’ve also been horrified at the response of many politicians.

To put it bluntly, too many of them are intent on doing to our Bill of
Rights and our Constitution what the terrorists did to the World Trade
Center.

Immediately after September 11, politicians rushed to propose
“solutions” to the terrorism crisis. Most of these “solutions” weren’t
new at all.

They were the same old tyrannical Big Brother / Big Government
proposals libertarians and other friends of freedom have been fighting
for years and years.

Now, they’ve been dusted off, renamed as “anti-terrorism” measures —
and pushed on a frightened American public.

And too many of our fellow Americans are falling for it. Too many are
all too eager to make the terrible bargain Ben Franklin warned us
about two centuries ago — trading essential liberty for false
promises of “security.”

Some examples:

* NATIONAL ID: The push is on greater than ever before for a
diabolical national ID “smart card” that will use “biometric
identification methods” like fingerprints, palm prints, iris scans,
face scans or even DNA samples to identify you. The card will be
loaded with intimate information about your health, your personal
life, your finances. The information will be stored in massive state
and federal databases.

Make no mistake: a national ID card will be a major step towards the
end of liberty in America.

* A REVVED-UP DRUG WAR: The War on Drugs is getting new impetus
from a new multi-million dollar White House / Drug Czar ad campaign
linking casual drug use to support for terrorism. Now you and I
know that the only reason terrorists sell drugs is because the
Drug War creates a massive black market that rewards them for
doing so. It’s the Drug War itself that’s to blame. But millions
of Americans DON’T know that — and they are falling for this
sinister new tactic to fan the flames of the Drug War that has
made large parts of our Bill of Rights almost meaningless.

* FEELING A DRAFT?: Discussion of a draft is back on the national
agenda — for the first time since Vietnam. The military
enslavement of young Americans is looming.

* THE USA PATRIOT ACT: If “truth in labeling” laws applied to
political bills, this awful post-Sept. 11 bill would be called
“The ANTI-Patriot Act.” It is nothing less than an all-out-assault
on our most basic liberties — and will do little or nothing to
protect Americans from terrorist attacks.

Think I’m exaggerating? Ask heroic Congressman Ron Paul (R-Texas)
— the only libertarian in Congress, and a fearless champion of
freedom. Paul was one of only three Republicans who had the
courage and wisdom to vote against the act.

Asked why he voted against the bill, Congressman Paul was
characteristically blunt:

“I thought it was undermining the Constitution,” he says.

“Undermining the Constitution.” And now it’s U.S. law.

Insight, a leading conservative magazine, asked Congressman Paul
what the Founding Fathers would think of this law.

Congressman Paul’s response should have been on the front page of
every newspaper in America:

“Our forefathers would think it’s time for a revolution. This is
why they revolted in the first place…They revolted against much
more mild oppression.”

Powerful words — and true!

The USA PATRIOT ACT has made dangerous institutional changes to
our form of government.

A few examples: The new law makes telephone and Internet spying on
innocent, non-suspect civilians by the government far easier.
Authorities can now spy on Web surfing of non-suspects, and have
broad access to highly sensitive business and personal records —
without showing “probable cause” to a judge.

The law greatly expands the ability of the government to conduct
secret searches. It also creates new definitions of “terrorism”
and “terrorist organization” that could easily include legitimate
political protestors and other innocents.

…and that’s just a very small sample. (I’ll tell you where you
can find everything you need to know about this horrendous bill in
just a moment!)

These new assaults on liberty will have to be challenged, fought,
and repealed if America is to remain free.

* STILL MORE AWFUL PLANS: They seem to be coming from all directions
— and almost daily. Calls for gutting our already-gravely-
weakened Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable
government searches and surveillance. Or weakening our basic
Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Amendment guarantees of
a right to a fair trial. (Can you believe you’re hearing mainstream
voices calling for the use of TORTURE in some trials?)

Further limiting our First Amendment rights to free speech and
free association. Stripping away what’s left of our financial
privacy and online privacy.

IS THIS YOUR AMERICA?

This isn’t MY vision of America. And I’m sure it’s not yours, either.

To me, America isn’t a place. It’s an IDEA. And that idea is LIBERTY
— the right of each individual to live in any peaceful way he or she
chooses.

The great men and women who formed this nation wanted America to serve
as the launching pad for a worldwide revolution for liberty. They knew
that America was the last great hope for liberty for all mankind.

I strongly believe that it still is. But it won’t remain that way unless
we can successfully challenge these new threats to that liberty
— and then go way beyond that to expand freedom in America to new
dimensions!

The good news: I believe we can!

This letter is calling on YOU to do GREAT THINGS for liberty — to
join in a grand and glorious cause that has inspired great men and
women for centuries.

Unlike our forefathers in American and elsewhere, you don’t have to
take up arms against a wicked and ruthless tyrant. You don’t have to
publish your views in secret under pain of imprisonment or death. You
don’t have to meet in dark basements at midnight to hatch desperate
plans. Or smuggle in at great personal danger the tools of liberty.

Others have done that in the past — so that YOU could advance their
dream of freedom still further.

IT’S UP TO US

And make no mistake about it: It’s up to us libertarians to do this.

Sure, I am delighted that many liberals, leftists, conservatives,
right-wingers, and middle-of-the-roaders are awakening to some of the
threats we’re faced with.

We need all the help we can get at this critical time.

But liberals and conservatives can’t — and won’t — restore and
rebuild liberty in America. That’s not on their agenda.

No, it will take a powerful movement for liberty — a fast-growing,
effective, public, consistent, principled libertarian movement — to
win freedom in America.

So where will this vastly larger, vastly more effective libertarian
movement come from?

How can lots of Americans quickly learn about libertarian ideas? How
will they learn about the libertarian movement? How will they learn
the most effective actions to take to reclaim — and expand! —
liberty in America?

That’s where you and I come in. That’s our job.

You’ll be asked in the coming months to help fight the battle for
civil liberties in America in many ways, by many worthy individuals
and organizations.

One key step I hope you will take is to support the Advocates for
Self-Government.

***** Your support for the Advocates in these crucial times is one of
the best investments you can make for insuring a powerful, effective
movement for liberty in the comings weeks, months, and years.*****

WHY THE ADVOCATES

The Advocates for Self-Government has been specializing in the
“libertarian-creating” business for over 16 years.

During that time, we’ve reached *millions* of people with
uncompromising libertarian ideas in the most persuasive ways.

We’ve helped untold thousands of these people become full-fledged,
knowledgeable libertarians eager to make our world a freer place —
and we’ve given them the tools, the information, the skills, the
training to do just that.

And we’ve introduced them to the libertarian movement — so they can
find their place for activism in the great task of winning the world
for liberty.

No other organization does all this.

And we do it well. So well that in 1999, Libertarian Party News
readers voted the Advocates as “most effective libertarian
organization.”

So well that scores of distinguished libertarian leaders and activists
from across America and around the world have praised our work.

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From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 24, 2002 at 11:09:28 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sara,

sorry, but I expect Carl to answer this question; “Why is it that Sara in the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her clients and others are not so successful? is his statement and I’m sure that he has enough bolls to point to “them”.

Carl?

Marko

At 00:12 1.5.2002, you wrote:
who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

From: “sara119” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] Facts
Date: April 30, 2002 at 6:12:42 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

who
are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your
answer with facts.

those whom their patients say “It doesn’t work “, where did they get a

treatment ? those who come to me and said I hope this time It will work

for me ,those had a treatment some where , I just don’t like to say

who because some people just need more then one treatment  ,

But can’t make the effort to pay so much money for it again ,

From: “sara119” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] %
Date: April 30, 2002 at 5:41:39 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Anyone who decides to use models as an analytical tool or a forecasting device runs the risk of seriously confusing himself.”

I can say that 100% of the people who came for a treatment left
my house clean , only 10% started using again after two weeks,some
repeat the treatment and then stayed clean for months and years ,
but not to confuse anyone I don’t choose the people who come
and I do give treatment to people who have hiv , mental disorders
hepatitice  c , b , and to people who don’t go to halfway house or to aa
people who use valium  anti-depressant ,anti-anxiety and Laam, I don’t dose each person the same ,The  purpose of a model is to provide an indication regarding the future.The experience with which the sciences of human action have to deal is always an experience of complex phenomena. No laboratory experiments can be performed with regard to human action.
The main characteristic or nature of human beings is that they are rational animals. They use their minds to sustain their lives and well-being. The usage of the mind, however, is not set to follow some kind of automatic procedure, but rather every individual employs his mind in accordance with his own circumstances. This makes it impossible to capture human nature by means of mathematical formulae, as is done in the natural sciences.

this is to correct Carl and Marko about the % .I said this before in other words ,I hope you can relate .

Sara

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 24, 2002 at 7:57:21 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Carl,

you have my blessing 😉
(though I’m no Master ;-))

Talking about success rate is tricky, you know that. Do Sara’s clients have 90% success rate a year after treatment? Or are we talking about that short time they stay with her?

While under supervision of my priests, our (whatever you want to call them) have more than 95% success rate; but when they leave for outer world – I don’t have any data about “the time after”; they have their own lives and they do whatever they want to – it’s not up to me (or up to Sacrament of Transition) to dictate them what to do or what not to do. They are certanly advised what would be good for them, but that’s all. I guess that Sara’s success rate is based on similar, short term data. I have realised that the vast majority of our (whatever you want to call them) doesn’t want to have contacts after the initiation. Initiation is deep in their minds somehow still connected with addictions, and they simply want to forget that part of their lives.

I’ve checked again and I have to admit that I don’t have feelling I took your sentence out of context. That brings me to an unanswere question again: can you please be more precise who are “others not so succesful”? You know all protagonists in Ibogaine “movement”, so please name those who are “not so successfull. And it would be great if you could support your answer with facts.

Thank you,

Marko

At 08:02 24.4.2002, you wrote:
Dear Marko
Read my entire posting once again and hopefully you will learn what I am talking about.It is not fair to cut one sentence out of its context like you did.If you have a success rate higher than Sara’s more modest 90%,congratulations,maybe you know something special that you wish to share with us other therapists so that we also may come to the peak of perfection that you claim to sit on.Do you mean that ALL of your clients remain free from addiction after you have given them Ibogaine?
If that is so you must be the Master of the Age.Please give me your blessing so that I may become like you,some of my clients could really use that kind of help!
best regards,Carl W.

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots
and lotS!
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:18:46 +0200

At 19:27 23.4.2002, you wrote:
Why is it that Sara in the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her
clients and others are not so successful?

Sorry, Carl, what are you talking about? We have more than 90% success rate
with out (whatever you wish to call them); can you be more precise who are
“others not so succesful”?

Marko

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 24, 2002 at 5:11:39 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Carrie Rollins
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a few messages and then leave.
Why do this?
Why post it to the ibogaine list?

I figure they usually want to talk about an experience with ibogaine but are still highly unsure as to whether they really want to “own it.” A drug like ibogaine will always attempt to integrate aspects of one’s being that the ego has “disowned” through fear that if they really “were” such-and-such a person they would be in some way unnacceptable to others. This is why they started using drugs – to avoid feelings that were felt to be unnacceptable, to disown feelings – and this is what ibogaine will try and show them.
When you come round after ibo, you can either “own” what happened and begin to accept who you actually are, (as opposed to continuing with the drug-maintained front you like to show to the world), or you can continue to reject yourself and go around saying ibogaine is shite and “doesn’t work.” Andre went for Option #2 – bad choice, guy.
Nick

If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure, which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me add that person to my blocking list in email?
I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages and what it should accomplish.
-carrie
Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 24, 2002 at 2:02:20 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: sara119@xs4all.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Marko
Read my entire posting once again and hopefully you will learn what I am talking about.It is not fair to cut one sentence out of its context like you did.If you have a success rate higher than Sara’s more modest 90%,congratulations,maybe you know something special that you wish to share with us other therapists so that we also may come to the peak of perfection that you claim to sit on.Do you mean that ALL of your clients remain free
from addiction after you have given them Ibogaine?
If that is so you must be the Master of the Age.Please give me your blessing so that I may become like you,some of my clients could really use that kind of help!
best regards,Carl W.

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots  and lotS!
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:18:46 +0200

At 19:27 23.4.2002, you wrote:
Why is it that Sara in the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her
clients and others are not so successful?

Sorry, Carl, what are you talking about? We have more than 90% success rate
with out (whatever you wish to call them); can you be more precise who are
“others not so succesful”?

Marko

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 9:15:39 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

self medicating, not self
—– Original Message —–
From: “lhutcherson” <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and
lotS!

Personally, I am just MORE CONFUSED about ibogaine, after reading many of
your emails…

All I can offer is this:  As an addict of more than 25 yrs., I have gone
through Live-In therapeutic communities, methadone treatment, counselling
etc!  What is WORKING for me, FINALLY, are two things.  My PERSONAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD and a good medical doctor who prescribed something for
my anxiety and pain.  (I have chronic osteomellitis (sp).
—– Original Message —–
From: Carrie Rollins
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots
and lotS!

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half
or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting
to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or
know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a
few messages and then leave.

Why do this?

Why post it to the ibogaine list?

If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure,
which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me
add that person to my blocking list in email?

I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m
lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages
and what it should accomplish.

-carrie

Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you
Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent
thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a
get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and
without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid
to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic.
Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the
lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you
want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on
for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this
fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine
doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually
get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or
most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else,
still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for
them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU
EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another
projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in
the first place?

Nick

————————————————————————–
—-
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 9:15:27 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All I can offer is this:  As an addict of more than 25 yrs., I have gone
through Live-In therapeutic communities, methadone treatment, counselling
etc!  What is WORKING for me, FINALLY, are two things.  My PERSONAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD and a good medical doctor who prescribed something for
my anxiety and pain.  (I have chronic osteomellitis (sp).<

Ibogaine for some, methadone for others, heroin for those well off and well
connected enough to maintain a habit, Religion, pot, complete abstinence,
there are so many ways that work for so many people. I completely agree that
often finding a doctor who is willing to prescribe medications that treat
pain and anxiety can be all that are needed to break a habit derived from
self a real problem.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “lhutcherson” <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and
lotS!

Personally, I am just MORE CONFUSED about ibogaine, after reading many of
your emails…

All I can offer is this:  As an addict of more than 25 yrs., I have gone
through Live-In therapeutic communities, methadone treatment, counselling
etc!  What is WORKING for me, FINALLY, are two things.  My PERSONAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD and a good medical doctor who prescribed something for
my anxiety and pain.  (I have chronic osteomellitis (sp).
—– Original Message —–
From: Carrie Rollins
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots
and lotS!

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half
or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting
to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or
know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a
few messages and then leave.

Why do this?

Why post it to the ibogaine list?

If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure,
which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me
add that person to my blocking list in email?

I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m
lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages
and what it should accomplish.

-carrie

Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you
Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent
thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a
get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and
without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid
to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic.
Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the
lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you
want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on
for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this
fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine
doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually
get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or
most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else,
still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for
them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU
EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another
projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in
the first place?

Nick

————————————————————————–
—-
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “Matt Eammons” <matteammons@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine
Date: April 23, 2002 at 8:31:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would have to echo this and agree.

I read heroin times and really like Patrick Kroupa’s writing. I’ve looked at Mindvox and the writing and art are beautiful, it’s like taking a acid trip without the acid. But this place at least for the week I’ve been subscribed is like coffee talk in the loony bin. I’ve understood nothing.

I apologize if this is some strange phase here but I’m saying, it doesn’t make any sense for someone who just signed on into the middle of it.

—– Original Message —–
From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:16:24 -0400

Personally, I am just MORE CONFUSED about ibogaine, after reading many of your emails…
All I can offer is this: As an addict of more than 25 yrs., I have gone through Live-In therapeutic communities, methadone treatment, counselling etc! What is WORKING for me, FINALLY, are two things. My PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD and a good medical doctor who prescribed something for my anxiety and pain. (I have chronic osteomellitis (sp).

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 7:16:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Personally, I am just MORE CONFUSED about ibogaine, after reading many of your emails…

All I can offer is this:  As an addict of more than 25 yrs., I have gone through Live-In therapeutic communities, methadone treatment, counselling etc!  What is WORKING for me, FINALLY, are two things.  My PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD and a good medical doctor who prescribed something for my anxiety and pain.  (I have chronic osteomellitis (sp).
—– Original Message —–
From: Carrie Rollins
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a few messages and then leave.
Why do this?
Why post it to the ibogaine list?
If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure, which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me add that person to my blocking list in email?
I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages and what it should accomplish.
-carrie
Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: robertbosch@softhome.net
Subject: [ibogaine] ssris and ibogaine
Date: April 23, 2002 at 7:02:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Could anyone tell me either their own experience or where I could look up information on how ibogaine interacts with opiate using persons who will use it to detox and are using ssri’s.
Is it important to stop use prior to ibogaine or does it not matter?
Thanks
Rob

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 5:18:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 19:27 23.4.2002, you wrote:
Why is it that Sara in the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her clients and others are not so successful?

Sorry, Carl, what are you talking about? We have more than 90% success rate with out (whatever you wish to call them); can you be more precise who are “others not so succesful”?

Marko

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 2:53:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I haven’t been here that long but lets say in the last month and a half or a little more there are always these people who pop up and I’m starting to see a pattern. They aren’t really clear on if they did ibogaine or not or know somebody who did or don’t like the idea or whatever, they rant for a few messages and then leave.
Why do this?
Why post it to the ibogaine list?
If I was ever hesitant about ibogaine, which I was, or wasn’t sure, which I’m not, then what is incoherent anger going to do to except make me add that person to my blocking list in email?
I know they’re angry about something, I don’t know what exactly but I’m lost as to what inside their mind they are doing by posting these messages and what it should accomplish.
-carrie
Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: Earthday2002
Date: April 23, 2002 at 1:33:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: spacetech@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “sara119” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:18:53 +0200

MATRIOTISM: WOMEN AND THE FATE OF THE EARTH

Elouise Bell, Earth Island Journal
‘Matriotism’ is yin to patriotism’s yang. It’s about loyalty to
Mother Earth, not just to individual countries.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12918

****************************************************************

LISTEN TO YOUR MOTHER!
Have you heard what Mother Earth has to say? She’s
got some advice for how you can help her out this Earth
Day. Click here to listen: http://www.environmentaldefense.org/earthday/?grp=2

**************************************************************

Dear George, Are you an Eco-Terrorist?
There are several issues this week that make me wonder if you are more
dangerous to the future of our planet than Osama Bin Laden ever could be.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.11D.SG.George.htm

***************************************************************

Changing Course — Earthday 2002
************************************   by Al Gore

On this Earth Day, and during the days and months ahead, all who care about the environment should speak out, because our environment is under siege. There is a movement afoot by polluters to dismantle America’s capacity to limit their releases of dangerous waste products and poisonous emissions, threatening to take us back to the days when America’s rivers and lakes were dying, when skylines were disappearing behind a shroud of smog, and when toxic waste threatened countless communities. America is only as healthy as the air our children breathe, the water they drink and the earth they will inherit. But instead of embracing the bi-partisan national consensus to improve our environment, the Bush Administration has chosen to serve the special interests instead of the public interests and subsidize the obsolete, failed approaches of the past, instead of the exciting new solutions of the future.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.23A.Gore.Earthday.htm

***********************************************************

APRIL 20 ANTI-WAR PROTESTS OVERWHELM EXPECTATIONS

Don Hazen, AlterNet
With 75,000 marchers in D.C., up to 50,000 in San Francisco
and thousands more across the country, this weekend’s
anti-war rallies surprised organizers and authorities alike.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12932

************************************************************

VICTORY FOR THE ARCTIC

Genevieve Roja, AlterNet
Thanks to dogged activism by environmental groups, President George
W. Bush’s dreams of drilling for oil and gas in the Arctic National
Wildlife Refuge will go unfulfilled.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12916

************************************************************

Federal Government vs The Last American Wild Buffalo Herd
04.18.2002

Right now there are more than 200 buffalo out of the park along the Madison River between the park boundary and the Horse Butte Peninsula. They are being captured and slaughtered on a weekly basis. I wish I could write more uplifting updates but the truth is the truth and needs to be told. Buffalo are being slaughtered systematically on a weekly basis and we are doing everything in our power to raise awareness of and stop the needless killing.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.19F.BFC.Update.htm

************************************************************

Healing Our World: Weekly Comment

By Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D.

Earth Day 2002 – No time for craft fairs and discussion groups

The list of events planned around the U.S. for Earth Day 2002 is chilling. While tens of thousands of people die from soil, air, and water poisoned with pesticides and scores of toxic chemicals, craft fairs, discussion groups, and lectures will be held. Lost is the passion and sense of urgency that heralded in the first Earth Day 32 years ago. The 32nd Earth Day this year will mark an unprecedented time of resource consumption and environmental violence against the Earth and our health.

For full text and graphics visit: http://ens-news.com/ens/apr2002/2002L-04-22g.html

**************************************************************

TAKE ACTION: LOBBY GOVERNMENT LEADERS TO PROTECT FOREST BIODIVERSITY

http://forests.org/emailaction/cbd/

* One email click sends to several dozen governments

The ultimate fate of the World’s forests may be determined this week at the
Convention on Biological Diversity meeting at The Hague. The convention
technical body has developed a strong, action driven work programme on
forest biodiversity conservation; which contains innovative action items on
ending deforestation, halting illegal logging, stopping biopiracy and
protecting and sustainably managing natural forests – including primary
forests. The programme is being undermined by countries profiting from the
trade in illegal or unsustainable logging and consumption patterns.

Ministerial delegates must be urged to support this programme. Please send
the email below, asking for bold commitments to end all forest loss,
protect primary forests from unsustainable commercial development, and
encourage community based eco-forestry management and protected areas.

TAKE ACTION:  http://forests.org/emailaction/cbd/

BACKGROUND: The World’s forests – home to 60% of the World’s biodiversity
and providing critical ecosystem functions – are dangerously threatened.
Over the past decade the estimated annual rate of deforestation was 14.6
million hectares. One-fifth of the Earth’s rainforests have disappeared
since 1960. Worldwide, large and fully intact ancient primary forests have
been reduced to 20% of their original pre-development extent.
**********************************************************************

World Tree Technologies Begins Shipping of Exclusive Empress Jewels

PHOENIX, AZ, Apr. 22 -/E-Wire/– World Tree Technologies Inc. is proud to announce the availability for shipment of its exclusive Empress Jewels(TM) variety of superior quality hardwood trees to locations worldwide, leading the international fight against Global Warming on Earth Day.

For full text:
http://www.ewire-news.com/wires/7911472F-D2D0-492B-B531C5AAB1188A93.htm

********************************************************************

THE ENVIRONMENT’S ‘NOBEL PRIZE’: 2002 GOLDMAN PRIZE WINNERS

Three North American tribal leaders, a Muslim woman from war-torn
Somalia and a Polish conservationist are among the eight recipients
of the 13th annual Goldman Environmental Prize.

Home Page

BROWER YOUTH AWARDS: HONORING SIX YOUNG ENVIRONMENTAL LEADERS

from TomPaine.com
The Brower Youth Awards honor young people who have demonstrated
outstanding environmental leadership in their communities.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5467

**************************************************************

WATSON LOSES CHAIR OF CLIMATE PANEL

GENEVA, Switzerland, April 19, 2002 (ENS) – Transatlantic divisions over climate change were reconfirmed today when Dr. Robert Watson, the outspoken chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPPC), was ousted with American support but against European wishes.

For full text and graphics visit: http://ens-news.com/ens/apr2002/2002L-04-19-03.html

***************************************************************

“What the caterpillar calls the end of the world the rest of the world
calls butterfly.”    –Richard Bach

Q: What did the agnostic flea say?
A: Sometimes I wonder if there really is a Dog.

งขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงข

“Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.”  — Daniel Webster

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it’s time to pause and reflect.”
–Mark Twain

“Governments arise either out of the people or over the people.” –Thomas Paine, “The Rights of Man”, 1791
“The will to be stupid is a very powerful force – ” Bujold

“Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.”
–H. G. Wells

จ๗จ๗จ๗จMจ๗จ๗จจ๗จ๗จTจ๗จ๗จรจ๗จ๗จNจ๗จ๗จสจ๗จ๗จXจ๗จ๗จ๗จ๗จ

FutureWorks MixFactory http://mixfactory.mirrorz.com

SAVE Big on DVD’s, Music, Books:
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http://futureworks.mirrorz.com

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 1:27:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: sara119@xs4all.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear friends
Why do you use such harsh language lined with obscene words?
There may well be a few who have paid some twelve thousand dollars for Ibogaine treatment on S:t Kitts that are disappointed with the results.I have indeed learned that the success rate there was not always optimal.I believe that being gentle and supportive towards clients and radiating loving kindness in the therapy is crucial for achieving optimal results.Why is it that Sara in the Netherlands has a 90% success rate with her clients and others are not so successful?
It cannot be solely because she has a small marijuana patch in her back yard and can provide her clients with an occasional joint to relieve the nausea and nervosity,but it certainly helps to have it that way.We must realize that the experienced content of the altered state of consciousness provided by the Iboga is enhanced by a supportive atmosphere and that the therapist should have a firstand experience of the state of mind triggered by the substance,and that the whole thing is an act of sharing in confidence the sacredness of human life.

“If we accept the working hypothesis that the kernel of man is a droplet of divinity,and therefore immortal,we will obtain a more profound understanding of William Blake’s dictum:
We are put on earth a little space
That we may learn to bear the beams of love”
(George Trevelyan)
Anyone wishing to become proficient in the healing arts must be prepared to meet the client on an equal footing,and the mentality of competition and commercial incentives must be subordinate in these matters… the true professional must be willing to take into his practice and equally treat his fellows regardless of the thickness of their wallets…
“without love in the dream it will never come true”
Carl W.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
CC: <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:17:57 +0100

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 1:07:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 01:17:56AM -0500], [ANDRE CHAVEZ] wrote:

| Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent
| thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a

Yup, I’m one of ’em.  Although I wound up with a considerably different
outcome then you.

| gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of
| addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your
| site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a

Hullo…  MindVox is my site.  I’m pretty much free to print whatever I
want on it.  This is a list, it’s one of several that run from the
servers; this one happens to be dedicated to ibogaine.

I don’t sell ibogaine and have never made .05 cents from it.  Moreover,
I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on it, getting unsprung.  ‘Course,
it worked out for me.  <shrug>

If you are unhappy with the content, you are always free to start your own
site, and see if you can find 10 people who give a shit.  <shrug>

| medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now
| !!!

Remove yourself, you signed yourself on to it, I ain’t your secretary
dude.  email: ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com and it all goes away like a
bad dream.

| I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of
| heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case,

Not particularily.  But, feel free.  Francis is on this list, and I
suppose the world is always searching for more instantiations of the Anne
Ardolino fanclub.

By the way, I don’t think “perpentrate” is a word, you may have meant
perpetrate, or possible perpetuate.

| E-ME, lying ass bitches.

Wow, somebody sure is super-cranky and lacking their wakeup shot.

Love,

Patrick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 9:17:57 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <hood_5@msn.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: ANDRE CHAVEZ
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–

Yo Andre, why don’t you just talk about what’s personally going on for you with ibogaine? Seems nearly every week we have to go through this fucking ritual with yet another whining junkie going on about “how ibogaine doesn’t work” – eventually, maybe, about 4 emails down the line we actually get to hear about what their personal issue with the drug actually is. Or most of the time not, they just go off, I guess, and wank on somewhere else, still to scared or fucked up to talk about what’s actually going on for them. WHAT ARE THE FUCKING ISSUES, MAN? WHAT IS GOING ON FOR YOU EMOTIONALLY? Do we get to hear about it? Or is it just going to be another projected rant, leaving everyone in no doubt about why you’re a junkie in the first place?

Nick

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
Date: April 23, 2002 at 8:01:17 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have never charged anyone anything,I have given freely to those in need.Iboga alkaloids can never become over-the-counter pharmaceuticals like Aspirin or Valium,and they should not be taken without proper supervision.I don’t know who has sold what to mr Chavez’s informants,but assuredly the stuff that I have been distributing over the last eighteen years has been,and still is,appreciated for its specific action on the human nervous system.Otherwise it would have been abandoned a long time ago.Would you please be more specific as to what substance(s) you refer to and from what source it has been obtained so that the community may learn what to avoid,or are you operating on sheer hearsay with a view to slander something that threatens the present pharmaceutical house/regulatory bureaucracy monopoly on drug abuse remedies and their elaborate neurochemical behaviour control cartel?I maintain that the Iboga plant and its active ingredients work admirably well,but this is not a field where any idiot can be successful.In fact it is not even desirable to try to create any social situation where any idiot can be successful.Your present posture does not further Humanity’s Quest one iota and I have had my fair share of gossip and slander long before you even learned about the existence of these matters,but then any rabble-rousing criticism can create a following in these confused times.Watch your vibes,man,for your pride of might will be your shame.Wine is strong,women are stronger,but truth conquers all.
Carl Olov Mattias Nyblom-Waltenburg
Chairman of the board,(Retired)
Materia Medica International

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:08:30 +0200

Hi Andre Chavez,

why don’t you take you from the list yourself? Haven’t you noticed
instructions to be removed at the header of every message? Why should
someone else work for you?

As for Ibogaine, I suggest that you change your sources; it seems they are
unreliable. I know (personally) more addicts that got off drugs with help
of Ibogaine (in one year) than our medical doctors claim to get them off
drugy (in one year). And a word about overpricing: are you sure that 800
EURO is overpriced?

Another thing I’d like to ask you while you’re still on the list: please
watch your language; minors are subscribed to this list, too!

Have a nice day (and life),

Marko

At 08:10 23.4.2002, you wrote:
Please remove me from your lame ass site !!! Your site says nothing, I
found out through other sources, that your miracle (whatever) ibogaine
does not work for shit. There is alot of people out there who took your
over, and I do mean over priced garbage and they are  still addicted and
in pain. Your site does nothing but mislead poor addicts who are trying to
find anything to break the chains of addiction. Shame on yourselves. Your
the motherfuckers who need help, help on telling the truth. Take me off
your e- list. Andre’ Chavez.

—– Original Message —–
From: Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 3:11 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved

AAhh,thanks Howard!
You’ve solved my identity crisis! In a corner of my mind I always knew
somehow that I was a retired Quasar…it feels so goooood to come out of the
closet…it’s great to be alive!Hope they don’t revoke my pension for being
so frank about it.
Carl W.

>From: HSLotsof@aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
>Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:50:48 EDT
>
>This came in via email among the subjects ( [antigrav] Cold Fusion,
>Awakening
>to the Fourth Dimension, et.)to my mindvox ibogaine list mail address and
>thought I would pass it on,
>
>Howard
>
>In a message dated 4/22/02 8:10:19 AM, newscientist@processrequest.com
>writes:
>
><< NEW SCIENTIST – NEWSFLASH
>
>————————————————————————
>
>Cosmic ray mystery solved
>
>Astronomers believe they have uncovered the source of the highest
>energy cosmic rays – retired quasars. Cosmic rays are tiny,
>energy-packed particles and, although very rare, are the only sample
>of matter from outside the Solar System.
>
>To read the full story go to:
><A
>HREF=”http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid
=Ucjj
>
>bCB”>
>http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=UcjjbCB
></A>
>
>
>Read more daily science and technology news at
>http://www.newscientist.com >>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

———-
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 6:21:14 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

someone got up on the wrong side of the bed today.
I never cease to be amazed at the anger from some people who find that
things that worked for someone else didn’t work for them. “It didn’t work
for me, so you are all liars.” How sad to face life expecting
cookiecutterness.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and
lotS!

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands,
upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich
scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any
help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real
detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez.
Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you
perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to
argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 2:52 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and
lotS!

At 20:27 22.4.2002, you wrote:

<Making Aum sounds>  Whatever else I’ve done, I have yet to start my very
own ibogaine religion.  You roOl dude =)

Patrick

Hurry up, you’re a step behind… I already have my own Ibogaine
religion… 31st official religion in Slovenija…
http://www.sigov.si/uvs/frames2.htm

;-))

MarkoGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
Date: April 23, 2002 at 6:08:30 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Andre Chavez,

why don’t you take you from the list yourself? Haven’t you noticed instructions to be removed at the header of every message? Why should someone else work for you?

As for Ibogaine, I suggest that you change your sources; it seems they are unreliable. I know (personally) more addicts that got off drugs with help of Ibogaine (in one year) than our medical doctors claim to get them off drugy (in one year). And a word about overpricing: are you sure that 800 EURO is overpriced?

Another thing I’d like to ask you while you’re still on the list: please watch your language; minors are subscribed to this list, too!

Have a nice day (and life),

Marko

At 08:10 23.4.2002, you wrote:
Please remove me from your lame ass site !!! Your site says nothing, I found out through other sources, that your miracle (whatever) ibogaine does not work for shit. There is alot of people out there who took your over, and I do mean over priced garbage and they are  still addicted and in pain. Your site does nothing but mislead poor addicts who are trying to find anything to break the chains of addiction. Shame on yourselves. Your the motherfuckers who need help, help on telling the truth. Take me off your e- list. Andre’ Chavez.

—– Original Message —–
From: Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 3:11 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved

AAhh,thanks Howard!
You’ve solved my identity crisis! In a corner of my mind I always knew
somehow that I was a retired Quasar…it feels so goooood to come out of the
closet…it’s great to be alive!Hope they don’t revoke my pension for being
so frank about it.
Carl W.

>From: HSLotsof@aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
>Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:50:48 EDT
>
>This came in via email among the subjects ( [antigrav] Cold Fusion,
>Awakening
>to the Fourth Dimension, et.)to my mindvox ibogaine list mail address and
>thought I would pass it on,
>
>Howard
>
>In a message dated 4/22/02 8:10:19 AM, newscientist@processrequest.com
>writes:
>
><< NEW SCIENTIST – NEWSFLASH
>
>————————————————————————
>
>Cosmic ray mystery solved
>
>Astronomers believe they have uncovered the source of the highest
>energy cosmic rays – retired quasars. Cosmic rays are tiny,
>energy-packed particles and, although very rare, are the only sample
>of matter from outside the Solar System.
>
>To read the full story go to:
><A
>HREF=”http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=Ucjj
>
>bCB”>
>http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=UcjjbCB
></A>
>
>
>Read more daily science and technology news at
>http://www.newscientist.com >>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 23, 2002 at 2:17:56 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine is a lie, I know more than a few people who have spent thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on this shit. It is just a gimmick, a get rich scheme, that only leaves the poor families of addicts broke and without any help what so ever. Print this on your site, or are you afraid to? For real detox go to the hospitol, or to a medicated detox clinic. Andre’ Chavez. Also remove me from your list now !!! I’m going to expose the lies you perpentrate, in the next issue of heroin helper, on line. If you want to argue your case, E-ME, lying ass bitches.

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 2:52 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

At 20:27 22.4.2002, you wrote:

><Making Aum sounds>  Whatever else I’ve done, I have yet to start my very
>own ibogaine religion.  You roOl dude =)
>
>Patrick

Hurry up, you’re a step behind… I already have my own Ibogaine
religion… 31st official religion in Slovenija…
http://www.sigov.si/uvs/frames2.htm

;-))

Marko

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From: “ANDRE CHAVEZ” <hood_5@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
Date: April 23, 2002 at 2:10:32 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please remove me from your lame ass site !!! Your site says nothing, I found out through other sources, that your miracle (whatever) ibogaine does not work for shit. There is alot of people out there who took your over, and I do mean over priced garbage and they are  still addicted and in pain. Your site does nothing but mislead poor addicts who are trying to find anything to break the chains of addiction. Shame on yourselves. Your the motherfuckers who need help, help on telling the truth. Take me off your e- list. Andre’ Chavez.

—– Original Message —–
From: Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 3:11 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved

AAhh,thanks Howard!
You’ve solved my identity crisis! In a corner of my mind I always knew
somehow that I was a retired Quasar…it feels so goooood to come out of the
closet…it’s great to be alive!Hope they don’t revoke my pension for being
so frank about it.
Carl W.

>From: HSLotsof@aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
>Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:50:48 EDT
>
>This came in via email among the subjects ( [antigrav] Cold Fusion,
>Awakening
>to the Fourth Dimension, et.)to my mindvox ibogaine list mail address and
>thought I would pass it on,
>
>Howard
>
>In a message dated 4/22/02 8:10:19 AM, newscientist@processrequest.com
>writes:
>
><< NEW SCIENTIST – NEWSFLASH
>
>————————————————————————
>
>Cosmic ray mystery solved
>
>Astronomers believe they have uncovered the source of the highest
>energy cosmic rays – retired quasars. Cosmic rays are tiny,
>energy-packed particles and, although very rare, are the only sample
>of matter from outside the Solar System.
>
>To read the full story go to:
><A
>HREF=”http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=Ucjj
>
>bCB”>
>http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=UcjjbCB
></A>
>
>
>Read more daily science and technology news at
>http://www.newscientist.com >>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
Date: April 22, 2002 at 4:06:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

AAhh,thanks Howard!
You’ve solved my identity crisis! In a corner of my mind I always knew somehow that I was a retired Quasar…it feels so goooood to come out of the closet…it’s great to be alive!Hope they don’t revoke my pension for being so frank about it.
Carl W.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:50:48 EDT

This came in via email among the subjects ( [antigrav] Cold Fusion, Awakening
to the Fourth Dimension, et.)to my mindvox ibogaine list mail address and
thought I would pass it on,

Howard

In a message dated 4/22/02 8:10:19 AM, newscientist@processrequest.com writes:

<< NEW SCIENTIST – NEWSFLASH

————————————————————————

Cosmic ray mystery solved

Astronomers believe they have uncovered the source of the highest
energy cosmic rays – retired quasars. Cosmic rays are tiny,
energy-packed particles and, although very rare, are the only sample
of matter from outside the Solar System.

To read the full story go to:
<A
HREF=”http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=Ucjj

bCB”>
http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=UcjjbCB
</A>

Read more daily science and technology news at
http://www.newscientist.com >>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 22, 2002 at 3:49:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 20:27 22.4.2002, you wrote:

<Making Aum sounds>  Whatever else I’ve done, I have yet to start my very
own ibogaine religion.  You roOl dude =)

Patrick

Hurry up, you’re a step behind… I already have my own Ibogaine religion… 31st official religion in Slovenija… http://www.sigov.si/uvs/frames2.htm

;-))

Marko

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 22, 2002 at 2:27:36 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 04:09:07PM +0200], [Ustanova Iboga] wrote:

| OK, I know (for sometime now ;-)) that Patrick is a genious (and I guess

Well yes, of course, exhibit A: my whole entire life!  Everything has gone
Exactly According to Plan!  Uhm, or not…

| that everyone around him is genious, too),

Well yes, of course, see above.

| don’t understand what is all this high-tech talk doing on this list, which
| is dedicated to Ibogaine.

Me neither, clearly he is DISRUPTING the Cold Fusion, Space War, Time
Travel, Conspiracy, Awakening, .mil/.gov IP, conversation.  Bad, bad, bad.

| Pinky White, why don’t you send Patrick private E-mails with topics not
| related to Ibogaine? I’m sure you know how to copy his addresse from the

I think, prolly, because he’s trying to be annoying =)

| Marko

<Making Aum sounds>  Whatever else I’ve done, I have yet to start my very
own ibogaine religion.  You roOl dude =)

Patrick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Cosmic ray mystery solved
Date: April 22, 2002 at 10:50:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This came in via email among the subjects ( [antigrav] Cold Fusion, Awakening
to the Fourth Dimension, et.)to my mindvox ibogaine list mail address and
thought I would pass it on,

Howard

In a message dated 4/22/02 8:10:19 AM, newscientist@processrequest.com writes:

<< NEW SCIENTIST – NEWSFLASH

————————————————————————

Cosmic ray mystery solved

Astronomers believe they have uncovered the source of the highest
energy cosmic rays – retired quasars. Cosmic rays are tiny,
energy-packed particles and, although very rare, are the only sample
of matter from outside the Solar System.

To read the full story go to:
<A
HREF=”http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=Ucjj

bCB”>
http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbddbefjCG,ZbccecggbbCF&oid=UcjjbCB
</A>

Read more daily science and technology news at
http://www.newscientist.com >>

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 22, 2002 at 9:19:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <hunneberg@telia.com>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:43 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back

Dear Carla
What I mean is that the entire Star Wars trip wielded by the newly formed
U.S. agency called “MDA” (Missile Defence Agency)is a blatant violation of
the 1967 Outer Space Treaty and,as such,is illegal according to
international law.There is also evidence filtering through for public
evaluation that the entire 911 fiasco was staged by renegades in the U.S.
Air Force in collaboration with the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad,and
that the airplanes were remote controlled or had rigged autopilot discs
disabling any human pilot from controlling the aircraft,and so the entire
shop window agenda is a farce laid upon the public in cold calculating
cruelty by forces using the “terrorist” rubberstamp to create a global
military dictature.Said forces will be exposed,as they do not operate in a
vacuum (and there still are human beings who have courage enough not to
pay
mere lip service to their ideals of chastity and virtue or throw their
lives
away in petty attempts to prevent truth from revealing how they actually
live).
Carl W.

The Two Towers Fall: Awakening to the Fourth Dimension, by Nick Sandberg. A
Qabalistic interpretation of symbols arising from the September 11th
tragedy, drawing on imagery from Tarot and Revelation, now online at
www.nick2211.yage.net/twotowers.htm

Thought I’d just stick this bit of impromptu self-promotion in, as the list
had moved in this direction! It does have a bit of iboga-esque relevance,
well just about! Nick

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 22, 2002 at 5:14:50 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

the entire Star Wars trip wielded by the newly formed
U.S. agency called “MDA” (Missile Defence Agency)is a blatant
violation of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty and,as such,is illegal
according to international law.

More interesting from a practical perspective is that the basic
strategy is flawed from a cost-benefit standpoint, a famous case
being the reknowned Maginot Line, which in spite of its formidable
reputation was of no value in defending France against Germany some
60 years ago.

Think of hardening a balloon against a pinprick – it is expensive to
harden the whole balloon, but cheap to make the one pin that much
more effective. The success in keeping drugs out of the US is another
case of useless perimeter defense that comes to mind. Star Wars is a
big show of tackling an interesting problem in order to avoid feeling
helpless about an insoluble one. Which helps security about as much as
state-sponsored gambling helps schools.

The moral/legal side is lamentable, the only comfort being that the
enterprise weakens the country that undertakes it. As a Bosnian
general once said of the Americans, “With friends like this, who needs
enemies?” <multiple levels of sarcasm on my part>

On a more positive note vis-a-vis the state providing security, I can
report that tonight firefighters saved the house I live in from burning,
when the abutting one went up completely (both made of wood and a good
breeze blowing in our direction).

Bill Ross

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 22, 2002 at 3:43:33 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: hunneberg@telia.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Carla
What I mean is that the entire Star Wars trip wielded by the newly formed U.S. agency called “MDA” (Missile Defence Agency)is a blatant violation of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty and,as such,is illegal according to international law.There is also evidence filtering through for public evaluation that the entire 911 fiasco was staged by renegades in the U.S. Air Force in collaboration with the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad,and that the airplanes were remote controlled or had rigged autopilot discs disabling any human pilot from controlling the aircraft,and so the entire shop window agenda is a farce laid upon the public in cold calculating cruelty by forces using the “terrorist” rubberstamp to create a global military dictature.Said forces will be exposed,as they do not operate in a vacuum (and there still are human beings who have courage enough not to pay mere lip service to their ideals of chastity and virtue or throw their lives away in petty attempts to prevent truth from revealing how they actually live).
Carl W.

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 16:37:27 -0700 (PDT)

I don’t know, I think it probably is legal the sites you posted I meant. I was wondering so I just looked on searches and there are thousands of those web stats and ftp stats all over the place and what patrick explained makes sense. I havent just ever seen so many gov and mil domains in one place before, usually there are a few listed, but i guess mindvox has a high hit rate and he just posted the mil and gov only.
It looks scary that’s all.
Carla B
Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Carla
Take a long good look at these sites:
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/news02/022702kadish.htm
http://www.globenet.free-online.co.uk/
Now,is THAT legal???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
A global military dictature violating every law of God and Man…
Carl W.

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 21, 2002 at 7:39:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I didn’t write that part!
That was vector or somebody who quoted me and left that on the end from some advertisement.
You jerk 🙂
What more did you want? 🙂
Carla B
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: 

| Carla B backgammon, pool and more

Sounds good to me, what’s the “more” part…?

Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 21, 2002 at 7:37:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know, I think it probably is legal the sites you posted I meant. I was wondering so I just looked on searches and there are thousands of those web stats and ftp stats all over the place and what patrick explained makes sense. I havent just ever seen so many gov and mil domains in one place before, usually there are a few listed, but i guess mindvox has a high hit rate and he just posted the mil and gov only.
It looks scary that’s all.
Carla B
Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Carla
Take a long good look at these sites:
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/news02/022702kadish.htm
http://www.globenet.free-online.co.uk/
Now,is THAT legal???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
A global military dictature violating every law of God and Man…
Carl W.
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 21, 2002 at 3:29:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Carla
Take a long good look at these sites:
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/news02/022702kadish.htm
http://www.globenet.free-online.co.uk/
Now,is THAT legal???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
A global military dictature violating every law of God and Man…
Carl W.

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT)

I don’t want to sound hopelessly dumb. But was that legal? patrick? you posted something like a thousand or more of military computer ip’s a day ago. This list is a interesting collection of a lot of things, but wasnt that a little much?
Carla B
Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote: a charming piece of “military intelligence”,now that we have such a
distinguished ibogaine fan club in the armed forces of the U.S.of A.
The End of the Oil Age?
cheers,Carlito

>From: “Carl Waltenburg”
>To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
>Subject: Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:16 +0200
>>
>>Forwarding a message from the newelectrogravity group. Article 5 (by
>>Chubb) of the first document mentioned (right at the end: tr1862-
>>vol1.pdf) is particularly interesting, as it analyses the deleterious
>>effects of “conventional thinking” on the whole Cold Fusion
>>discussion.
>>

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From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 20, 2002 at 10:09:07 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OK, I know (for sometime now ;-)) that Patrick is a genious (and I guess that everyone around him is genious, too), but I’m just a plain citizen <g> and don’t know nothing ’bout computers – except they usually do what I want them to do – and I don’t know nuthin bout internet – except I get a lot of info from “out there” and can communicate with my friends – So I really don’t understand what is all this high-tech talk doing on this list, which is dedicated to Ibogaine.

Pinky White, why don’t you send Patrick private E-mails with topics not related to Ibogaine? I’m sure you know how to copy his addresse from the list, and paste it to a new message… And I’m sure that Patrick will politely explain you it’s not your buissiness what he and his crew do with their property…

On the other hand, you can always break into the system (if nobody wants to open it for you); but then, you have to be better than Patrick if you want to do this…

Marko

At 10:02 20.4.2002, you wrote:

http://web.archive.org/web/19961111084653/phantom.com/release.html

.:vector:.

On Thu, 18 April 2002, Ustanova Iboga wrote

> Hey, am I the only one who doesn’t understand what’s
all this about? Which
> system isn’t opened and why? And HoWWW? (jeez, it
must be CONtageous, now
> even i STARted to write like mimicking someOn-e…
>
> Marko
>

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From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] whose children shall inherit the stars?
Date: April 21, 2002 at 9:27:12 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

> > > >Dear friends in the Divided States of America

The document below reflects VERY serious Space Law violations.
You must realize that there are unfathomable consequences to the posture taken by certain three-letter Alphabet Soup Conglomerate interests that will endanger the entire global community if this shit goes on.
The United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs also has real teeth…
It would be a grevious strategic mistake to challenge cosmic forces.
respectfully,Carl W.

> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Press Release ::: ATTN Editors, Activists, and
> Investigative
> >Journalists
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>
>>**************************************************************************
> >*
> > > >>*
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>MAUNA KEA CONFLICT HEATS UP IN HAWAI’I
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Mauna Kea is under seige again by NASA! The
> massive volcano, held as
> >the
> > > >>most sacred temple and burial ground for the
> Native Hawaiian people,
> >has
> > > >>been desecrated for decades by astronomical
> development at its summit,
> > > >>forever scarring the pristine and endangered
> high-altitude environment
> > > >>without any allowance for input or oversight
> by the Native Hawaiian
> > > >>community. This situation is even more
> outrageous given that Mauna Kea
> >is
> > > >>supposed to be held in “trust” by the State of
> Hawaii for the benefit
> >of
> > > >>Native Hawaiian people.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>By delegating the management of the sacred
> mountain to the University
> >of
> > > >>Hawai’i’s “Institute for Astronomy,” an
> obscure and unelected group of
> > > >>scientists, the State has avoided having to
> take responsibility for
> >the
> > > >>ongoing desecration of Mauna Kea and the
> resulting offense to Native
> > > >>Hawaiian culture. In this manner the
> scientific community has taken
> > > >>advantage of the non-existent oversight
> regarding environmental impact
> >in
> > > >>an endangered and unique volcanic environment,
> resulting in the
> > > >>near-extinction of some high-altitude insect
> species.
> > > >>
> > > >>Now NASA proposes to begin building up to 6
> more telescopes, under
> >protest
> > > >>by the cultural caretakers of the sacred
> volcano, the Royal Order of
> > > >>Kamehameha I, who have decreed that no more
> construction at the summit
> >of
> > > >>Mauna Kea will be allowed. The graves of their
> most esteemed ancestors
> > > >>have been desecrated, the metal “pimples”
> shine like a monument to
> > > >>imperial conquest from the very peak of their
> most sacred land, and
> >now
> > > >>NASA proposes to militarize the mountain as
> well. Will science ever be
> > > >>satisfied? At the beginning of the
> development, the University
> >promised
> > > >>only one telescope, then there were three, now
> there are 24! The
> >entire
> > > >>summit has been turned into an industrial
> park, without any
> >consideration
> > > >>or consultation with Native Hawaiian people,
> whose heritage is held in
> > > >>broken “trust” by the State of Hawaii,
> trampled on by opportunists and
> > > >>militarists, and at this time Native Hawaiians
> are not yet even
> >recognized
> > > >>by the U. S. government as a legitimate
> indigenous nation!
> > > >>
> > > >>See the devastation yourself, proudly
> displayed by the “Institute for
> > > >>Astronomy”! :::
> > > >>
> > >
>
>><http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/images/aerial-tour/west.html>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>For more information about the resistance to
> NASA’s “Space Science
> > > >>Initiative” in Hawai’i,
> > > >>and to read the testimony of Native Hawaiians,
> go to KAHEA :::
> > > >><http://www.kahea.org>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Send feedback to Institute for Astronomy
> feedback@ifa.hawaii.edu
> > > >>Please e-mail comments to Cynthia Chase at
> cchase@ostp.eop.gov
> > > >>
> > >
> >>งขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงข
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>MAUNA KEA CONSTRUCTION MORATORIUM IN EFFECT!!!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Dear Editors and Administrators
> > > >>
> > > >>************************
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Mauna Kea is the heart center of our living
> planet. Let’s begin with
> >that
> > > >>lofty premise. It is the most sacred mountain
> to the Native Hawaiian
> > > >>people, a temple, a shrine, a graveyard. It is
> the Vatican. It is
> > > >>Stonehenge. It is the blood-red cathedral of
> our Mother Earth.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>In the past 30 years the University of Hawai’i
> has allowed
> >uncontrolled
> > > >>industrial desecration at the summit of Mauna
> Kea, resulting in the
> >peak
> > > >>being now covered with ugly white “pimples” as
> prominent as the faces
> >at
> > > >>Mt. Rushmore, bulldozed over the protests of
> the inheritors of the
> >sacred
> > > >>mountain, the Native Hawaiian people. This is
> a criminal outrage, even
> > > >>though it has resulted in beautiful pictures
> of the edge of the
> >universe,
> > > >>and possible indications of planetary bodies
> around distant stars. The
> > > >>University must ask what is the hidden cost of
> this scientific
> > > >>exploration? America must ask why have Native
> Hawaiians been
> >marginalized,
> > > >>and paved-over for the past century?
> > > >>
> > > >>Now we have a thrust for “Space Command” by
> the U.S. military, and
> >NASA
> > > >>proposes building up to 6 more telescopes for
> its use on Mauna Kea.
> >How
> > > >>many Americans realize that the entire area in
> the “saddle” between
> >Mauna
> > > >>Kea and Mauna Loa, the two most massive
> volcanoes on the planet, is a
> > > >>”bombing range” used by the various U.S. (and
> NATO) forces for
> >military
> > > >>exercises and secret storage of weapons? This
> activity is hidden away
> > > >>behind the sacred temples of Hawai’i, in the
> heart of the most
> >endangered
> > > >>rainforest environements in the so-called
> United States! The Pohakuloa
> > > >>Military Range actually employs biologists to
> study native birds near
> > > >>extinction while dropping bombs and blowing
> off missiles around them!
> >This
> > > >>is madness, and the cancer can not be allowed
> to spread any further.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>In the year 2000, the U.S. Departments of
> Interior and Justice
> >released
> >an
> > > >>investigative report on “the reconciliation
> process between the
> >federal
> > > >>government and Native Hawaiians,” quite
> poetically entitled “From
> >Mauka
> >to
> > > >>Makai : The River of Justice Must Flow
> Freely.” Americans should know
> >that
> > > >>”from Mauka” means from the mountain, or in
> this case, from the summit
> >of
> > > >>Mauna Kea. We enclose the following
> declaration from this official
> >report,
> > > >>to clearly delineate the issue of violation of
> land “trust” by the
> >State
> > > >>of Hawaii:
> > > >>
> > > >>”In 1810, King Kamehameha I established the
> unified Kingdom of Hawai’i
> >to
> > > >>govern the Native Hawaiian people. Over the
> next 60 years, the United
> > > >>States entered into several treaties of peace,
> friendship and commerce
> > > >>with the Kingdom of Hawai’i, recognizing its
> status as an independent
> > > >>sovereign.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>”During the 1880’s, western influence over the
> Kingdom of Hawai’i
> > > >>increased, and in 1893, as Queen Lili’uokalani
> sought to restore full
> > > >>authority of the Native Hawaiian monarchy, the
> American and European
> > > >>plantation owners acting in concert with the
> U.S. Minister and
> >military
> > > >>forces OVERTHREW the Kingdom. The Provisional
> Republic of Hawai’i,
> >formed
> > > >>by the plantation owners, then seized the
> Crown and public lands of
> >the
> > > >>Kingdom of Hawai’i, including one-third of
> Hawai’i that was impressed
> >with
> > > >>a trust for the Native Hawaiian common people.
> Although President
> > > >>Cleveland initially opposed the overthrow,
> President McKinley
> >supported
> > > >>the call of the Republic of Hawai’i for
> annexation. Congress annexed
> > > >>Hawai’i in 1898, without the consent of the
> Native Hawaiian people. As
> >a
> > > >>result of the overthrow, laws suppressing
> Hawaiian culture and
> >language,
> > > >>and displacement from the land, the Native
> Hawaiian people suffered
> > > >>mortality, disease, economic deprivation,
> social distress, and
> >population
> > > >>decline.”
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>This startling admission by the Departments of
> Justice and Interior
> > > >>clearly points out the problem of
> marginalization and cultural
> >genocide
> > > >>which continues to this day. We recommend that
> every American agency,
> > > >>especially the University of Hawai’i, take
> this report to heart and
> >adjust
> > > >>their expectations and relationship with
> Native Hawaiian people and
> >their
> > > >>land accordingly. For NASA to propose to build
> 6 more telescopes on
> >the
> > > >>sacred summit of Mauna Kea, for example, is
> the equivalent of rubbing
> >salt
> > > >>into an open wound. Every American, and the
> ineternational community,
> > > >>should rise up in protest against this
> culturally offensive proposal!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>The “Mauka to Makai” report goes on to make
> recommendations which are
> >yet
> > > >>to be realized. For example:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>”To safeguard and enhance Native Hawaiian
> self-determination over
> >their
> > > >>lands, cultural resources, and internal
> affairs, the Departments
> >believe
> > > >>Congress should enact further legislation to
> clarify Native Hawaiians’
> > > >>political status and to create a framework for
> recognizing a
> > > >>governemnt-to-government relationship with a
> representative Native
> > > >>Hawaiian governing body.”
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Every agency currently active in Hawai’i
> should burn this passage into
> > > >>their brains, and adjust their plans
> accordingly. Until The U.S. has
> >fully
> > > >>come to terms with the cultural genocide
> perpetrated by the State of
> > > >>Hawai’i over the past century, acknowledging
> the admissions by its own
> > > >>institutional investigators, and given
> sufficient recognition,
> >protection,
> > > >>and compensation to Native Hawaiian people
> accordingly, proposals such
> >as
> > > >>those by NASA should be suspended or
> terminated.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>From a spiritual perspective, the Earth is
> very alive here on the Moku
> >O
> > > >>Keawe, the Big Island, in fact, more active
> than anywhere else on the
> > > >>planet. The scientific community has already
> taken advantage of the
> > > >>pristine and unique environment provided by
> these sacred volcanoes,
> >and
> > > >>has made extraordinary discoveries in deep
> space research. We ask that
> >the
> > > >>University of Hawai’i take responsibility for
> the cultural offense of
> >this
> > > >>NASA proposal, and that the State of Hawai’i
> turn the management of
> >the
> > > >>summit of Mauna Kea over to a Native Hawaiian
> agency, chaired by the
> >Royal
> > > >>Order of Kamehameha I, the traditional
> caretakers of the “Sacred
> >Temple.”
> > > >>
> > > >>Respectfully,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>B.Z. Evans
> > > >>
> > > >>Earth Rescue Corps Outpost 23
> > > >>
> > > >>planetary@wildmail.com
> > > >>POB 6271 Hilo, HAWAI’I 96720
> > > >>
> > > >>(808) 969-3765
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>”Yes, the planet is some kind of organized
> intelligence. It’s very
> > > >>different from us. It’s had 5- or 6- billion
> years to create a slow
> >moving
> > > >>mind which is made of rivers and rain, forests
> and glaciers. It’s
> >becoming
> > > >>aware of us, as we are becomeing aware of it,
> strangely enough. Two
> >less
> > > >>likely members of a relationship can hardly be
> imagined– the
> > > >>technological apes and the dreaming planet.
> And yet, because the life
> >of
> > > >>each depends on the other, there’s a feeling
> towards this immense,
> > > >>strange, wise, old, neutral, weird thing, and
> it is trying to figure
> >out
> > > >>why its dreams are so tormented and why
> everything is out of balance.”
> > > >>
> > > >>–Terence McKenna http://deoxy.org/omega.htm
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>cc:::
> > > >>
> > > >>Robert F. Kennedy, NRDC Senior Attorney
> nrdcaction@nrdc.org
> > > >>NASA Office of Space Science otpea@hq.nasa.gov
> > > >>DLNR State of Hawai’i dlnr@exec.state.hi.us
> (808)692-8015
> > > >>
> > > >>Institute for Astronomy
> feedback@ifa.hawaii.edu
> > > >>State of Hawaii Ombudsman
> complaints@ombudsman.state.hi.us
> > > >>President’s Council of Advisors on Science and
> Technology (PCAST)
> > > >>cchase@ostp.eop.gov
> > > >>Astronomy Magazine News@astronomy.com
> > > >>NASA Watch nasawatch@reston.com
> > > >>Department of Interior Inspector General :::
> > > >><http://www.oig.doi.gov/hotline.html>
> > > >>
> > > >>KAHEA kahea-alliance@hawaii.rr.com
> > >
> >>งขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงขงข
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>NASA & the Race for “Total Space Dominance”
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>9 January 2002: New NASA Chief Sees Closer
> Ties to Pentagon , Reuters,
> > > >>Yahoo “I don’t think we have a choice. I think
> it’s imperative that we
> > > >>have a more direct association” between the
> Defense Department and
> >NASA,
> > > >>O’Keefe told reporters at a breakfast on the
> sixth day of his tenure
> >at
> > > >>the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration.”
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>6 February 2002: STA Urges Bush Administration
> to Seek Centralized
> >Space
> > > >>Management
> http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=732
> Space
> > > >>Transportation Association “The Bush
> administration, thus, must match
> >this
> > > >>rhetoric about the importance of space to
> national security with more
> >than
> > > >>words. Therefore, the Space Transportation
> Association is today
> >calling
> > > >>for the administration to reestablish a
> central organizing body for
> >space
> > > >>within the Executive Office of the President
> modeled on the previous
> > > >>National Space Council. Space issues clearly
> need an emphasis and
> > > >>advocates in the White House beyond any one
> single agency or one
> >agency’s
> > > >>space agenda. Vice-President Cheney could
> chair such a group to give
> >it
> > > >>the attention and the visibility that space
> issues deserve.”
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>20 March 2002: Aerospace Daily: U.S. Space
> Dominance Faces Growing
> > > >>Threats, Officials Say “The U.S. faces growing
> threats to its space
> > > >>dominance, as potential adversaries are making
> significant progress in
> > > >>fielding their own space assets and developing
> tools to disrupt
> >American
> > > >>space systems, U.S. intelligence officials
> said March 19.”
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>US Space Command Doctrine
> > > >>
> > >
> >><http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usspac/>
> > > >>
> > > >>U.S. Space Command
> > > >>
> > > >>One of the nine Unified (multi-service)
> Combatant Commands in the
> > > >>Department of Defense, the U.S. Space Command
> coordinates the use of
> >Army,
> > > >>Naval and Air Force space forces to perform
> these missions:
> > > >>- Space Support
> > > >>- Force Enhancement
> > > >>- Space Control
> > > >>- Force Application
> > > >>- Computer Network Defense
> > > >>- Computer Network Attack
> > > >>- Information Operations
> > > >>
> > > >><http://www.spacecom.af.mil/usspacecom/>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Welcome to the Naval Space Command
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Naval Space Command uses the medium of space
> and its potential to
> >provide
> > > >>essential information and capabilities to
> ashore and afloat naval
> >forces.
> > > >>As a focal point of operational space support,
> Naval Space Command
> >enables
> > > >>naval forces to use space assets, expertise
> and technologies to
> >achieve
> > > >>and maintain knowledge superiority essential
> for dominating the battle
> > > >>space.
> > > >>
> > > >><http://www.navspace.navy.mil/>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
>
>>จ๗จ๗จ๗จMจ๗จ๗จจ๗จ๗จTจ๗จ๗จรจ๗จ๗จNจ๗จ๗จสจ๗จ๗จXจ๗จ๗จ๗จ๗จ
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>”Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only
> light can do that. Hate
> >cannot
> > > >>drive out hate; only love can do that.”
> > > >>– Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>”Power concedes nothing without a demand.
> > > >>It never did and never will.”
> > > >>Frederick Douglass
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Wealth heaped on wealth,
> > > >>nor truth nor safety buys,
> > > >>The dangers gather
> > > >>as the treasures rise.
> > > >>Samuel Johnson
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>”When the people fear the government you have
> tyranny…
> > > >>when the government fears the people you have
> liberty.”
> > > >>–Thomas Jefferson
> > > >>
> > > >>FutureWorks CrossRoads
> > > >><http://www.geocities.com/futuremagick>
> > > >>
> > > >>MUTANEX Books & Films
> > > >><http://mutanex.vstorebooks.com>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>===========
> > > >>ride a bike
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 21, 2002 at 7:27:43 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 11:04:08AM -0700], [vector6@space.com] wrote:

| It’s great !  Going to alt.2600 you’re lucky to get 15 or 20, you listed
| hundreds and the few i’ve tried are all there!
|
| .:vector:.

I uhm, wouldn’t do that if I were you.  Much — if not most — of that
stuff will be some guy’s personal machine, or an open-access internet
thing, where somebody is just SUrfiNG the nEt do0d.  But if you start
running port scans and probes on those IP’s … well, odds are nothing
will happen and nobody will notice.

On the flipside if some guy there is actually looking at what’s up, then
you have the opportunity to win the Scapegoat of the Month sweepstakes, and
have a lotta people kick in your door, take all your shit, and depending
on your age, either give you a Stern Reprimand, or life in prison for
being a TerrorisT.

I would, strongly suggest you find sumthin’ else ta do.  Unless of course
it is your goal to become an Interesting Anecdote on a buncha web sites
for a few weeks, before some other Interesting Anecdote replaces you.

– – – – – – – – –

On Sat, 20 April 2002, Carla Barnes wrote

| I don’t want to sound hopelessly dumb. But was that legal? patrick? you

Yeah, sure it is.  That wuz a partial list of IP’s these people used to
access our property.  We didn’t scan those, or look for them, they chose
to connect to our system, thus generating logs in the web server software.
<Shrug>.

However, see above.  I wouldn’t recommend eXploring ’em.  Were you to
actually ever attach to said machine, you’d prolly find a buncha mp3’s,
personal email, porno, whatever crap some guy has dumped on his machine.
Not GREAT SECRETS! <ShhhhH!>

| Carla B backgammon, pool and more

Sounds good to me, what’s the “more” part…?

Patrick

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] another military intelligence trip
Date: April 20, 2002 at 4:07:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I know it’s off topic,but…

http://www.truthout.com/docs_02/04.10E.Bernie.Alice.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: April 20, 2002 at 3:55:31 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] indra extract

From: Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:13:07 -0700 (PDT)

Testing. If this message goes through more then once I’m sorry but I am
having problems mailing from yahoo lately. I hit send and freezes or I
hit
send and it sends 5 or 10 copies. I think it is starting to fall apart
because millions of people moved from hotmail here when they started
asking
for money at hotmail, now they are starting the same thing on yahoo and
lycos. Maybe its time to move mail somewhere else again.

Indra you’re saying is extract from the root of taberanthe iboga which
has
many other active alkaloids which are not found in ibogaine hcl. What are
these alkaloids and do they make any difference? If I’m asking something
to
which there isn’t a exact answer, I understand that, but ibogaine hcl is
what all the experiments being written in the science journals are being
done with so I’m lost. What testing has been done with the extract. I’m
not
challenging you only trying to understand what basis your statement is
made
from.

The extract has a different pharmacodynamic action.It may be taken in
small
amounts over extended periods of time to relieve fatigue and/or
opiod withdrawal symptoms.Specifically,when it comes to Methadone
withdrawals,(which can be quite unbearable and long-lasting)the extract
has
been proven to be far superionr to Ibogaine HCL,(which to the best of my
knowledge is not advisable to use in repeated high dosages),and the inner
journey seems to feel more mellow and benign to the
clients,who,furthermore,can be treated in non-clinical settings without
the
use of electronic measuring devices and other fancy gadgets of the
“scientific” disciplines.The Pygmy and other tribes  have used this stuff
for millennia in the treatment of sleeping sickness and so it should be
quite safe and if you get too much you will throw it up.There was one
fatality reported in London where rumour has it that the man choked to
death
from his own vomit while the original coroner’s report wrote about an
inner
hemorrage due to Hepatitis C,

Just to set the record straight, the only rumor was that of the internal
hemorrhage. There was a gap of about a year between the death and the
inquest, and in this time for some reason, the idea got out that the
unfortunate deceased had died as a result of a stomach hemorrhage. However,
I was at the inquest, and the pathologist did not find any hemorrhaging at
all. Death was put down to “fatal reaction to t. iboga extract” with
secondary cause as liver disease. The “fatal reaction” took the form of
vomiting shortly after eating food about 38 hours after taking 6 g of the
Indra extract. The treatment was characterized by near constant vomiting
throughout. Basically, the tragic incident reinforces the need for constant
observation of clients, especially where there’s a lot of throwing up, and
for treatment providers to be familiar with resuscitation procedures.
Personally, I think the “fatal reaction” bit was overplayed and, had there
been any defence, iboga would not have been blamed for the death, at least
not primary cause. The researches I did indicated that the pathologist’s
testimony would not have been able to withstand expert cross-examination. T.
iboga and T. iboga extract are now on the list of about 50 substances the
UK’s medicines control agency wants to restrict as prescription only
medicines. Such is life.

Nick

but I have never ever heard of anyone else
having any problems with the stuff except the seasickness and the
sometimes
very intense long-lasting introspective mood of the journey in the high
dosage range,which usually can be alleviated by the skilled psychedelic
guide who has tried the stuff before giving it to someone else.This I
believe to be imperative for good results in its therapeutic use,and
that,I
believe, goes for the entire family of mind-revealing substances from the
plant kingdom,ancient & modern,in clinical as well as ritual settings.

Why is taking more then 1,000mg of ibogaine hcl toxic or dangerous?
Haven’t
people who detoxed with ibogaine taken amounts nearly twice that in order
to do it and come out ok?
To illustrate this let us take an example,coffee beans.Coffee can be
considered to be an extract of coffee beans.Drinking coffee is one
thing,downing caffeine tablets en masse is somewhat different…
I don’t know,man I never administered the HCL,but I have been giving away
some twenty-five kiloes of the extract since 1985 and my friends did not
give it to rats.

The ibogaine fatalities that have been recorded were all with hcl?

As far as I know,yes,with the exception of the above-mentioned case.

_Synergy_

I hope that this may bring some clarity.May virtue increase.Soon.

cordially,Carl W.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 20, 2002 at 2:04:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s great ! Going to alt.2600 you’re lucky to get 15 or 20, you listed hundreds and the few i’ve tried are all there! .:vector:. On Sat, 20 April 2002, Carla Barnes wrote I don’t want to sound hopelessly dumb. But was that legal? patrick? you posted something like a thousand or more of military computer ip’s a day ago. This list is a interesting collection of a lot of things, but wasnt that a little much? Carla B backgammon, pool and more
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 20, 2002 at 1:36:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t want to sound hopelessly dumb. But was that legal? patrick? you posted something like a thousand or more of military computer ip’s a day ago. This list is a interesting collection of a lot of things, but wasnt that a little much?
Carla B
Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:
a charming piece of “military intelligence”,now that we have such a
distinguished ibogaine fan club in the armed forces of the U.S.of A.
The End of the Oil Age?
cheers,Carlito

>From: “Carl Waltenburg”
>To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
>Subject: Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:16 +0200
>>
>>Forwarding a message from the newelectrogravity group. Article 5 (by
>>Chubb) of the first document mentioned (right at the end: tr1862-
>>vol1.pdf) is particularly interesting, as it analyses the deleterious
>>effects of “conventional thinking” on the whole Cold Fusion
>>discussion.
>>
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: April 20, 2002 at 1:09:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

a charming piece of “military intelligence”,now that we have such a distinguished ibogaine fan club in the armed forces of the U.S.of A.
The End of the Oil Age?
cheers,Carlito

From: “Carl Waltenburg” <saucertrips@hotmail.com>
To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: [antigrav] Cold Fusion is Back
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:16 +0200

Forwarding a message from the newelectrogravity group. Article 5 (by
Chubb) of the first document mentioned (right at the end: tr1862-
vol1.pdf) is particularly interesting, as it analyses the deleterious
effects of “conventional thinking” on the whole Cold Fusion
discussion.

John T.

________________________________________________
FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS ……………….

From:  “Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone” <iri@e…>
Date:  Sun Apr 14, 2002  7:37 am
Subject:  Navy Report Supports Cold Fusion
To:  “Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone” <iri@e…>

Future Energy
eNews
April 15, 2002

———————————————————————-
———-

—– Original Message —–
From: “Eugene F. Mallove” <editor@infinite-energy.com>
To: “Eugene Mallove” <editor@infinite-energy.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:28 PM
Subject: New Navy Report Supports Cold Fusion

All,

A new official report just out, prepared by the U.S. Navy, is strongly
supportive of cold fusion research:

TECHNICAL REPORT 1862, February 2002
Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System
(In two volumes)

It is a public document with unlimited distribution, so we are
posting below
some of the introductory material in each of the volumes.

Infinite Energy will be making copies of the full report — hard
copy, CD
version, and perhaps web site posting. We’ll keep you posted about the
availability of the full document.

I wish to highlight in particular this statement from the Foreword:

“As I write this Foreword, California is experiencing rolling
blackouts due
to power shortages. Conventional engineering, planned ahead, could
have
prevented these blackouts, but it has been politically expedient to
ignore
the inevitable. We do not know if Cold Fusion will be the answer to
future
energy needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion phenomenon
through repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It
is
time that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever
benefits accrue from additional scientific understanding. It is time
for
government funding organizations to invest in this research.

Dr. Frank E. Gordon
Head, Navigation and Applied Sciences Department
Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego”

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
editor@infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975

***********
TECHNICAL REPORT 1862, February 2002

Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System

Volume 1: A Decade of Research at Navy Laboratories

S. Szpak, P. A. Mosier-Boss, Editors

Approved for public release; distribution is unlimited

SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego

SSC San Diego
San Diego, CA 92152-5001

SSC SAN DIEGO
San Diego, California 92152-5001

P. A. Miller, CAPT, USN Commanding Officer

R. C. Kolb, Executive Director

ADMINISTRATIVE INFORMATION

The work described in this report was performed for the Office of
Naval
Research through the collaboration of Space and Naval Warfare Systems
Center, San Diego (SSC San Diego); the Naval Air Warfare Center,
Weapons
Division, China Lake; and the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL).

Released by
G. W. Anderson, Head
Applied Research & Technology Branch

Under authority of R. H. Moore, Head, Environmental Sciences Division

Contributing authors (in alphabetical order)

Dr. Pamela A. Mosier-Boss
Code D363
Spawar Systems Center San Diego
San Diego, CA 92152-5000
(619) 553-1603; FAX (619) 553-1269; e-mail bossp@spawar.navy.mil

Dr. Scott R. Chubb
Code 7252
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC 20375-5343
(202) 767-5270; FAX (202) 767-3303; e-mail scott.chubb@nrl.navy.mil

Professor Martin Fleischmann, F.R.S.
Bury Lodge, Duck Street
Tisbury, Salisbury, Wilts SP3 6LJ
United Kingdom
FAX (+44) 1747 870845

Dr. M. Ashraf Imam
Code 6320
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC 20375-5343
(202) 767-2185; FAX (202) 767-2623 e-mail imam@angil.nrl.navy,mil

Dr. Melvin H. Miles
Department of Chemistry
Middle Tennessee State University
Murfreeboro, TN 37132
(615) 904-8558; e-mail mmiles@mtsu.edu

Dr. Stanislaw Szpak
3498 Conrad Ave
San Diego, CA 92117
(858) 272-9401

FOREWORD

Twelve years have passed since the announcement on 23 March 1989 by
Professors Fleischmann and Pons that the generation of excess enthalpy
occurs in electrochemical cells when palladium electrodes, immersed
in D2O
+ LiOH electrolyte, are negatively polarized. The announcement, which
came
to be known as “Cold Fusion,” caused frenzied excitement. In both the
scientific and news communities, fax machines were used to pass along
fragments of rumor and “facts.” (Yes, this was before wide spread use
of
the internet. One can only imagine what would happen now.) Companies
and
individuals rushed to file patents on yet to be proven ideas in hopes
of
winning the grand prize. Unfortunately, the phenomenon described by
Fleischmann and Pons was far from being understood and even factors
necessary for repeatability of the experiments were unknown. Over the
next
few months, the scientific community became divided into
the “believers”
and the “skeptics.” The “believers” reported the results of their
work with
enthusiasm that at times overstated the significance of their
results. On
the other hand, many “skeptics” rejected the anomalous behavior of the
polarized Pd/D system as a matter of conviction, i.e., without
analyzing
the presented material and always asking “where are the neutrons?”
Funding
for research quickly dried up as anything related to “Cold Fusion” was
portrayed as a hoax and not worthy of funding. The term “Cold Fusion”
took
on a new definition much as the Ford Edsel had done years earlier.

By the Second International Conference on Cold Fusion, held at Villa
Olmo,
Como, Italy, in June/July 1991, the altitude toward Cold Fusion was
beginning to take on a more scientific basis. The number of
flash-in-the-pan “believers” had diminished, and the “skeptics” were
beginning to be faced with having to explain the anomalous phenomenon,
which by this time had been observed by many credible scientists
throughout
the world. Shortly after this conference, the Office of Naval Research
(ONR) proposed a collaborative effort involving the Naval Command,
Control
and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Division, which subsequently has
become the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego (SSC San
Diego); the Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake;
and the
Naval Research Laboratory (NRL). The effort’s basic premise was to
investigate the anomalous effects associated with the prolonged
charging of
the Pd/D system and “to contribute in collegial fashion to a
coordinated
trilaboratory experiment.”

Each laboratory took a different area of research. At San Diego, our
goal
was to understand the conditions that initiate the excess heat
generation
(the Fleischmann-Pons effect) and the search for evidence that
indicates
their nuclear origin. To eliminate the long incubation times (often
weeks),
Drs. Stan Szpak and Pam Boss decided to prepare the palladium
electrodes by
the co-deposition technique. Initially, they concentrated on tritium
production and the monitoring of emanating radiation. More recently,
they
extended their effort to monitoring surface temperature via IR imaging
technique and showed the existence of discrete heat sources randomly
distributed in time and space. This discovery may prove to be a
significant
contribution to the understanding of the phenomenon.

At China Lake, Dr. Miles and his collaborators showed that a
correlation
exists between the rate of the excess enthalpy generation and the
quantity
of helium in the gas stream. Such a correlation is the direct
evidence of
the nuclear origin of the Fleischmann-Pons effect.

The research at NRL was directed toward the metallurgy of palladium
and its
alloys and the theoretical aspects of the Fleischmann-Pons effect. In
particular, Dr. Imam prepared Pd/B alloys that Dr. Miles used in
calorimetric experiments. It was shown that these alloys yielded
reproducible excess enthalpy generation with minimal incubation times
(approximately 1 day). The theoretical work of Dr. Chubb contributed
much
to our understanding of the Fleischmann-Pons effect.

Although funding for Cold Fusion ended several years ago, progress in
understanding the phenomenon continues at a much slower pace, mostly
through the unpaid efforts of dedicated inquisitive scientists. In
preparation of this report the authors spent countless hours outside
of
their normal duties to jointly review their past and current
contributions,
including the “hidden” agenda that Professor Fleischmann pursued for
several years in the 1980s when he was partially funded by ONR.
Special
thanks are extended to all scientists who have worked under these
conditions, including those who contributed to this report and
especially
to Professor Fleischmann.

As I write this Foreword, California is experiencing rolling
blackouts due
to power shortages. Conventional engineering, planned ahead, could
have
prevented these blackouts, but it has been politically expedient to
ignore
the inevitable. We do not know if Cold Fusion will be the answer to
future
energy needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion phenomenon
through repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It
is
time that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever
benefits accrue from additional scientific understanding. It is time
for
government funding organizations to invest in this research.

Dr. Frank E. Gordon
Head, Navigation and Applied Sciences Department
Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego

TABLE OF CONTENTS

1. THE EMERGENCE OF COLD FUSION
S. Szpak and P. A. Mosier-Boss

2. EVENTS IN A POLARIZED Pd+D ELECTRODES PREPARED BY CO-DEPOSITION
TECHNIQUE
S. Szpak and P. A. Mosier-Boss

3. EXCESS HEAT AND HELIUM PRODUCTION IN PALLADIUM AND PALLADIUM ALLOYS
Melvin H. Miles

4. ANALYSIS OF EXPERIMENT MC-21: A CASE STUDY
Part I: Development of Diagnostic Criteria
Part II: Application of Diagnostic Criteria
S. Szpak, P. A. Mosier-Boss, M. H. Miles, M. A. Imam and M.
Fleischmann

5. AN OVERVIEW OF COLD FUSION THEORY
Scott Chubb

APPENDIX: LISTING OF PUBLICATIONS/PRESENTATIONS RELATED TO COLD
FUSION BY
NAVY LABORATORIES

STAFF

************
VOLUME #2

TECHNICAL REPORT 1862
February 2002

Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System
Volume 2: Simulation of the Electrochemical Cell (ICARUS) Calorimetry

S. Szpak
P. A. Mosier-Boss
Editors

Approved for public release; distribution is unlimited

SPAWAR
Systems Center San Diego

SSC San Diego
San Diego, CA 92152-5001

FOREWORD

The calorimetry of any electrochemical cell involves two type of
activities: data collection and data evaluation. The required data
are the
cell potential-time and cell temperature-time series. The evaluation
is
based on conservation laws subject to constraints dictated by cell
design
and the adapted experimental procedure.

Volume 2 of this report deals with the modeling and simulation of the
Dewar-type calorimeter. It was written by Professor Fleischmann to
provide
an authoritative discussion of the calorimetry of electrochemical
cells.
The emphasis is on the interpretation of data and the accuracy of the
determination of the excess enthalpy generation via the appropriate
selection of heat transfer coefficients. The discussion of the
calorimetry
of the Dewar-type cells is presented in the form of technical report
for a
number of reasons, among them: (I) its length would likely prohibit
publication in topical journals, (ii) to clarify misunderstandings
regarding the principles of calorimetry as applied to electrochemical
cell
in general and to the cell employed by Fleischmann and his
collaborators,
in particular.

S. Szpak and P.A. Mosier-Boss, eds.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

INTRODUCTION
SYMBOLS USED

1. THE EVOLUTION OF THE ICARUS DATA EVALUATION STRATEGIES
2. DEFINITION OF THE HEAT TRANSFER COEFFICIENTS
3. DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS GOVERNING THE BEHAVIOR OF THE CALORIMETERS:
SIMULATIONS OF THE TEMPERATURE-TIME SERIES
4. SPECIFICATION OF THE ICARUS-1 EXPERIMENTAL PROTOCOLS AND DATA
EVALUATION
PROCEDURES
5. EVALUATION OF THE “RAW DATA” GENERATED USING THE SIMULATION
DESCRIBED IN
SECTION 4
6. EVALUATION OF A MEASUREMENT CYCLE FOR    A “BLANK EXPERIMENT”
USING AN
ICARUS-2 SYSTEM
7. ASSESSMENT OF THE SPECIFICATION OF THE ICARUS-1 EXPERIMENTAL
PROTOCOLS
AND DATA

EVALUATION PROCEDURES

REFERENCES
FIGURES
TABLES

INTRODUCTION

Apart from some fragmentary investigations, primarily related to the
study
of the self-discharge of batteries, there exists no well defined set
of
studies in the field of the electrochemical calorimetry. We note that
such
studies would allow the investigation of the thermal behavior of a
wide
range of reactions, especially irreversible processes. Thus, the
establishment of an accurate model of an experiment is very important.
However, as this aspect is not generally understood, we felt it
necessary
to produce this document.

In spite of its length, this volume only covers the analysis of a
data set
generated by calculation and one measurement cycle for a “blank
experiment.” We believe that it is very important to produce a
detailed
analysis and account (as far as is possible at this stage) of the
methodology which we adopted. This is especially important in view of
the
misleading comments which have been made about the calorimetry of the
Pd/D
system. Taken at face value, one must believe that the workers
concerned do
not understand the difference between differential and integral
coefficients, the disadvantages of differentiating “noisy” data as
compared
to integrating such data, the differences between the precision and
accuracy of data evaluations, the recognition of “negative”
and “positive
feedback,” the analysis of cooling curves, etc. They do not understand
relaxation nor recognize the presence of strange attractors and the
way in
which the effects of such complications can be circumvented. [1]

It is relevant here to reflect on the precision and accuracy of the
experiments. Of course, if the precision is high, then there will be
no
difficulty in interpreting changes in the rates of excess enthalpy
generation as small as 1 mW at the 10-sigma level. [2]. Of course, the
question of the magnitude of the errors raises three further important
questions: (I) what error limits are required so as to be able to
detect
excess enthalpy generation at an adequate level of statistical
significance? (ii) what is the difference (if any) between the
experiments
carried out with ICARUS systems and ICARUS lookalikes and with other
types
of calorimetry? (iii) how can one assess the error limits of a given
piece
of instrumentation?

The answer is that one simply stops the development of the
methodology when
one is able to make an adequate set of measurements. We note here
that this
particular specification is itself dependent on the physical size of
the
systems being investigated as well as the chosen operating
conditions. In
our particular investigation the limit was certainly reached when the
errors had been reduced to the 0.01% level. Naturally, the first
question
impacts on the second and we note that it is the use of less precise
and
accurate calorimetric methods which has bedeviled so much of the
research
in this field. The reason is that with the use of less
precise/accurate
methods, it becomes impossible to monitor the build-up of excess
enthalpy
generation. This then brings us to the third question and the answer
to
this is exactly with the methods outlined in this document, at least
as far
as isoperibolic calorimetry is concerned (although it is not very
difficult
to specify improvements in those methods!). [3] It is relevant that
although errors had undoubtedly been made in setting up these
experiments,
the detailed data analyses had also shown the way in which such errors
could be allowed for. [4]

To reiterate, we considered it necessary to produce this document for
the
following reasons: Firstly, it is always essential to determine the
Instrument Function (or of a parameter or sets of parameters which
define
the Instrument Function) and to validate the methods of data
analysis. Such
validation is best done using simulated/calculated data. Secondly, one
needs to see the extent to which “blank” experiments conform to
expectations. Thirdly, one needs to investigate the ways in which
methods
of data analysis may fail.

Footnotes:

(l.) Of course, it is possible that the researchers concerned do not
understand any of these matters, but what is so remarkable is that
they
have failed to understand these topics even when they have been
described
to them.

(2) However, the high precision of the instrumentation (relative
errors
below 0.01%) has been converted into a 10% error by the group at NHE.
It is
hard to see how anybody can make such an assertion while still
keeping a
straight face. If the errors were as high as this, then it would be
impossible to say anything sensible about calorimetry – for that
matter, it
would remove one of the main planks of scientific methodology

(3) The answer to this question brings us to very interesting further
lines
of enquiry which can be summarized by the question: “why is it that
NHE
have never made any sets of raw data for blank experiments available
for
further analysis?” If one considers this question in a naive way,
then one
would say that there can hardly be any reason for not releasing data
sets
which do not show any generation of excess enthalpy!

(4) Instead of seeking to establish the correct way(s) of calibrating
the
systems, the group at NHE used the procedure leading to (k^’,0 R)362,
probably coupled to timing errors in the calibration pulse which they
did
not allow for. Needless to say, this produced nonsensical results
which
they used as a justification for substituting an invalid method of
data
analysis. Moreover, this invalid method of data analysis was applied
to
just two experiments, regarded as being typical, although the fact
that
there were malfunctions in these experiments has also been pointed
out.

These reports are available at:
Vol.I, 3.5 Meg   ~121 pages
http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/tr1862-
vol1.pdf

Vol. II, 178 pgs, 42,810 kbytes
http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/tr1862-
vol2.pdf

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: April 20, 2002 at 8:29:00 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:13:07 -0700 (PDT)

Testing. If this message goes through more then once I’m sorry but I am having problems mailing from yahoo lately. I hit send and freezes or I hit send and it sends 5 or 10 copies. I think it is starting to fall apart because millions of people moved from hotmail here when they started asking for money at hotmail, now they are starting the same thing on yahoo and lycos. Maybe its time to move mail somewhere else again.

Indra you’re saying is extract from the root of taberanthe iboga which has many other active alkaloids which are not found in ibogaine hcl. What are these alkaloids and do they make any difference? If I’m asking something to which there isn’t a exact answer, I understand that, but ibogaine hcl is what all the experiments being written in the science journals are being done with so I’m lost. What testing has been done with the extract. I’m not challenging you only trying to understand what basis your statement is made from.

The extract has a different pharmacodynamic action.It may be taken in small amounts over extended periods of time to relieve fatigue and/or
opiod withdrawal symptoms.Specifically,when it comes to Methadone withdrawals,(which can be quite unbearable and long-lasting)the extract has been proven to be far superionr to Ibogaine HCL,(which to the best of my knowledge is not advisable to use in repeated high dosages),and the inner journey seems to feel more mellow and benign to the clients,who,furthermore,can be treated in non-clinical settings without the use of electronic measuring devices and other fancy gadgets of the “scientific” disciplines.The Pygmy and other tribes  have used this stuff for millennia in the treatment of sleeping sickness and so it should be quite safe and if you get too much you will throw it up.There was one fatality reported in London where rumour has it that the man choked to death
from his own vomit while the original coroner’s report wrote about an inner
hemorrage due to Hepatitis C,but I have never ever heard of anyone else having any problems with the stuff except the seasickness and the sometimes very intense long-lasting introspective mood of the journey in the high dosage range,which usually can be alleviated by the skilled psychedelic guide who has tried the stuff before giving it to someone else.This I believe to be imperative for good results in its therapeutic use,and that,I believe, goes for the entire family of mind-revealing substances from the plant kingdom,ancient & modern,in clinical as well as ritual settings.

Why is taking more then 1,000mg of ibogaine hcl toxic or dangerous? Haven’t people who detoxed with ibogaine taken amounts nearly twice that in order to do it and come out ok?
To illustrate this let us take an example,coffee beans.Coffee can be considered to be an extract of coffee beans.Drinking coffee is one thing,downing caffeine tablets en masse is somewhat different…
I don’t know,man I never administered the HCL,but I have been giving away some twenty-five kiloes of the extract since 1985 and my friends did not give it to rats.

The ibogaine fatalities that have been recorded were all with hcl?

As far as I know,yes,with the exception of the above-mentioned case.

_Synergy_

I hope that this may bring some clarity.May virtue increase.Soon.

cordially,Carl W.

Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: Carl Waltenburg
>To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
>Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:42:24 +0100 (BST)
>
>Dear friends
>Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion on
>the Net as to what is what I would like to make a
>comment to the statement attached below.The book I
>came across when I returned from the Kilimanjaro was
>not Schultes’&Hofmann’s “Plants of the gods”.It was
>their “botany and chemistry of hallucinogens”.Apart
>from correcting that error the statement deserves some
>further clarification…
>What is “Indra”?
>”Indra” was the name chosen for an internet shop
>selling ethnobotanical specialties for shamanic use.
>I happened to know the guys who started the shop and
>gave them some of my Iboga extract so that they could
>make it commercially available.
>I am not so happy with the way that went down.Although
>they surely distributed substantial amounts of the
>stuff,I did not see much of any benign influence from
>their endeavour,(nor did I see any money coming my way
>from providing the stuff to them in the first place).
>It stands to reason,when I view the episode in
>retrospect,that entheogens and sacred plants and their
>congeners should not be handled by people whose only
>religion is money,whose only incentive is profit and
>who approach me with an intent to GET whateveritis
>from me to take personal advantage of the situation.
>The Iboga extract that was released to the world
>through this conduit was,however,remarkably safe and
>sort of tailor-made for the elimination of addictive
>demands and applicable over a wide variety of
>drug-related problematiques.Crystalline Ibogaine HCL
>is to this extract somewhat like taking ONE active
>ingredient out of a plant with at least EIGHTEEN
>different active ingredients.You end up with a
>different pharmacodynamic profile,and also something
>quite toxic in the dosages proposed (e.g.1000
>milligrams) and hence impossible to administer under
>any but highly supervised clinical settings.
>Considering the popularity of another historically
>known Iboga extract called “Lambarene” in the early
>days of the 20th century,experience shows that this is
>a promising field indeed,but only as good as the
>players in it…
> cordially,Carl W.
> >
> > >From: vector6@space.com
> > >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
> > >Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
> > Reply-to: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > From: vector6@space.com
> > Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
> >
>
>

>This doesn’t answer what indra is exactly, if it’s
>still any good after being stored for so long and what
>potency is left in it. But like almost everything at
>least some of the answers are on the internet and you
>can find them using google 🙂
>
>.:vector:.
>
>Reprinted from:
>http://www.ridgetelnet.com/~jenks/ibogaine/121299.html
>
>Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:24:43 EST
>From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg”
>Subject: Re: indra ibo(beginning)
>
>
>In a message dated 12/11/99 10:48:50 AM,
>ibogalab@hotmail.com (Carl) wrote:
>
> > I have been working with the Iboga alkaloids over
>the last sixteen years
>
>Carl,
>
>What precipitated your work with ibogaine? How did
>you come to it? Please
>be only as open as you feel comfortable in being.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Howard
>
>Well,Howard it is a very long story,I guess it started
>with being born into a family where visionary plants
>and drugs was part of the cultural heritage,and
>literature in that field was
>abundant.Huxley’s”Island”,Baudelaire’s”the artificial
>paradises”de Ropp’s “drugs and the mind” etc. was my
>childhood literature,my father was a book publisher
>and translator and a journalist with a strong
>revolutionary impact on contemporary society
>throughout the 1960’s and my school years in the late
>sixties were heavily laced with psychedelic drugs and
>social protest,the Vietnam war being what it was and
>youth culture being what it was…
>I first came across the Iboga plant when I returned
>from a soujourn with the medicine men of Tanzania
>,Kenya and Uganda in the Kilimanjaro area (doing some
>highly classified magic that was part of overthrowing
>the Idi Amin dictatorship),finding dr Hofmann’s and dr
>Schultes’ elegant volume “Plants of the Gods”.Then,as
>I stated earlier,I was working with numerous medicinal
>plants in a pharmaceutical house,and the Iboga plant
>was one of them.At that time,we considered it to be a
>rather wild and rough trip with a lot of undesirable
>side effects,so I set out to “tame” this wild spirit
>into something more manageable,as I intuitively felt
>that here was something with a tremendous healing
>potential.In the same time period Christiania Freetown
>had a severe problem with hard drug abuse,criminal
>biker gangs fighting over street level drug market
>control,heavily armed maniacs, and a lot of police
>brutality.The scene was disgusting,so the Psychedelic
>Movement decided to make the entire arsenal of
>visionary plants and drugs readily available at street
>level,on the principle that on a truly free market
>good drugs will drive out the bad,and the Iboga
>extract was one of the materials employed in this
>endeavour.It was a successful operation,and Chritiania
>Freetown has remained a zone entirely free from hard
>drugs like opiates,cocaine, speed etc.to this day, and
>violence is rare,although there are some problems with
>alcohol and tourism…
>To acheive consensus on “no hard drugs” in a community
>is no easy thing and our model may not be universally
>applicable,but the principles involved could indeed be
>applied worldwide in a more enlightened future.To some
>extent there are hopeful signs that visionary plants
>and drugs are becoming an accepted part of everyday
>reality in the western “civilization”,and that
>long-lost profession of being a psychedelic guide will
>be back in business, as was the case in the 1950’s and
>early60’s,with a new role to play in using the Iboga
>alkaloids in therapy and counseling.In this spirit,I
>will do what I can,as much as I can, as fast as I
>can…
>
>Cordially,Carl
>
>
>
>On Mon, 08 April 2002, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com wrote
>
> > Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is
>less dangerous
> > than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine.
>For people
> > who need codeine, why not prescribe really small
>amounts of
> > heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no
>sense and
> > doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics
>to pre-meds; it
> > was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my
>first student
> > becoming a license physician.)
> >
> > Francis
> >
> >
> > On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM,
>synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it
>answered my question.
> > > >What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and
>if they broke it down
> > > >from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that
>instead of turning it
> > > >into HCL? Is this some company making it right
>now or what. I’m lost. What
> > > >I mean is what is the reason, why make this when
>you can get HCL from it
> > > >and what am I buying if I buy indra?
> > >
> > > Without giving you a direct response… why does
>opium exist and morphine
> > > exist when the manufacturer could go on to make
>heroin? I think indra is the
> > > equivalent of a trade name. Indra can be reached
>at
> > > . You
>might ask them to explain
> > > themselves.
> > >
> > > Howard
> > >
>
>

>

___________________________________________________________________
>Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at
>http://www.space.com.

>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
>from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
>http://uk.my.yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Where is Ibogaine Treatment Legal?
Date: April 20, 2002 at 2:24:06 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would like to know where to find a list of countries in which Ibogaine Treatment is Legal… in particular, I am interested in the laws for Costa Rica. Please advise.

____________________________________________________
IncrediMail – Email has finally evolved – Click Here

From: Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: April 20, 2002 at 2:11:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Testing. If this message goes through more then once I’m sorry but I am having problems mailing from yahoo lately. I hit send and freezes or I hit send and it sends 5 or 10 copies. I think it is starting to fall apart because millions of people moved from hotmail here when they started asking for money at hotmail, now they are starting the same thing on yahoo and lycos. Maybe its time to move mail somewhere else again.
Indra you’re saying is extract from the root of taberanthe iboga which has many other active alkaloids which are not found in ibogaine hcl. What are these alkaloids and do they make any difference? If I’m asking something to which there isn’t a exact answer, I understand that, but ibogaine hcl is what all the experiments being written in the science journals are being done with so I’m lost. What testing has been done with the extract. I’m not challenging you only trying to understand what basis your statement is made from.
Why is taking more then 1,000mg of ibogaine hcl toxic or dangerous? Haven’t people who detoxed with ibogaine taken amounts nearly twice that in order to do it and come out ok?
The ibogaine fatalities that have been recorded were all with hcl?
_Synergy_
Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:
>From: Carl Waltenburg 
>To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
>Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:42:24 +0100 (BST)
>
>Dear friends
>Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion on
>the Net as to what is what I would like to make a
>comment to the statement attached below.The book I
>came across when I returned from the Kilimanjaro was
>not Schultes’&Hofmann’s “Plants of the gods”.It was
>their “botany and chemistry of hallucinogens”.Apart
>from correcting that error the statement deserves some
>further clarification…
>What is “Indra”?
>”Indra” was the name chosen for an internet shop
>selling ethnobotanical specialties for shamanic use.
>I happened to know the guys who started the shop and
>gave them some of my Iboga extract so that they could
>make it commercially available.
>I am not so happy with the way that went down.Although
>they surely distributed substantial amounts of the
>stuff,I did not see much of any benign influence from
>their endeavour,(nor did I see any money coming my way
>from providing the stuff to them in the first place).
>It stands to reason,when I view the episode in
>retrospect,that entheogens and sacred plants and their
>congeners should not be handled by people whose only
>religion is money,whose only incentive is profit and
>who approach me with an intent to GET whateveritis
>from me to take personal advantage of the situation.
>The Iboga extract that was released to the world
>through this conduit was,however,remarkably safe and
>sort of tailor-made for the elimination of addictive
>demands and applicable over a wide variety of
>drug-related problematiques.Crystalline Ibogaine HCL
>is to this extract somewhat like taking ONE active
>ingredient out of a plant with at least EIGHTEEN
>different active ingredients.You end up with a
>different pharmacodynamic profile,and also something
>quite toxic in the dosages proposed (e.g.1000
>milligrams) and hence impossible to administer under
>any but highly supervised clinical settings.
>Considering the popularity of another historically
>known Iboga extract called “Lambarene” in the early
>days of the 20th century,experience shows that this is
>a promising field indeed,but only as good as the
>players in it…
> cordially,Carl W.
> >
> > >From: vector6@space.com
> > >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
> > >Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
> > Reply-to: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > From: vector6@space.com
> > Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
> >
>
>

>This doesn’t answer what indra is exactly, if it’s
>still any good after being stored for so long and what
>potency is left in it. But like almost everything at
>least some of the answers are on the internet and you
>can find them using google :)
>
>.:vector:.
>
>Reprinted from:
>http://www.ridgetelnet.com/~jenks/ibogaine/121299.html
>
>Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:24:43 EST
>From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” 
>Subject: Re: indra ibo(beginning)
>
>
>In a message dated 12/11/99 10:48:50 AM,
>ibogalab@hotmail.com (Carl) wrote:
>
> > I have been working with the Iboga alkaloids over
>the last sixteen years
>
>Carl,
>
>What precipitated your work with ibogaine? How did
>you come to it? Please
>be only as open as you feel comfortable in being.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Howard
>
>Well,Howard it is a very long story,I guess it started
>with being born into a family where visionary plants
>and drugs was part of the cultural heritage,and
>literature in that field was
>abundant.Huxley’s”Island”,Baudelaire’s”the artificial
>paradises”de Ropp’s “drugs and the mind” etc. was my
>childhood literature,my father was a book publisher
>and translator and a journalist with a strong
>revolutionary impact on contemporary society
>throughout the 1960’s and my school years in the late
>sixties were heavily laced with psychedelic drugs and
>social protest,the Vietnam war being what it was and
>youth culture being what it was…
>I first came across the Iboga plant when I returned
>from a soujourn with the medicine men of Tanzania
>,Kenya and Uganda in the Kilimanjaro area (doing some
>highly classified magic that was part of overthrowing
>the Idi Amin dictatorship),finding dr Hofmann’s and dr
>Schultes’ elegant volume “Plants of the Gods”.Then,as
>I stated earlier,I was working with numerous medicinal
>plants in a pharmaceutical house,and the Iboga plant
>was one of them.At that time,we considered it to be a
>rather wild and rough trip with a lot of undesirable
>side effects,so I set out to “tame” this wild spirit
>into something more manageable,as I intuitively felt
>that here was something with a tremendous healing
>potential.In the same time period Christiania Freetown
>had a severe problem with hard drug abuse,criminal
>biker gangs fighting over street level drug market
>control,heavily armed maniacs, and a lot of police
>brutality.The scene was disgusting,so the Psychedelic
>Movement decided to make the entire arsenal of
>visionary plants and drugs readily available at street
>level,on the principle that on a truly free market
>good drugs will drive out the bad,and the Iboga
>extract was one of the materials employed in this
>endeavour.It was a successful operation,and Chritiania
>Freetown has remained a zone entirely free from hard
>drugs like opiates,cocaine, speed etc.to this day, and
>violence is rare,although there are some problems with
>alcohol and tourism…
>To acheive consensus on “no hard drugs” in a community
>is no easy thing and our model may not be universally
>applicable,but the principles involved could indeed be
>applied worldwide in a more enlightened future.To some
>extent there are hopeful signs that visionary plants
>and drugs are becoming an accepted part of everyday
>reality in the western “civilization”,and that
>long-lost profession of being a psychedelic guide will
>be back in business, as was the case in the 1950’s and
>early60’s,with a new role to play in using the Iboga
>alkaloids in therapy and counseling.In this spirit,I
>will do what I can,as much as I can, as fast as I
>can…
>
>Cordially,Carl
>
>
>
>On Mon, 08 April 2002, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com wrote
>
> > Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is
>less dangerous
> > than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine.
>For people
> > who need codeine, why not prescribe really small
>amounts of
> > heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no
>sense and
> > doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics
>to pre-meds; it
> > was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my
>first student
> > becoming a license physician.)
> >
> > Francis
> >
> >
> > On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM,
>synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it
>answered my question.
> > > >What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and
>if they broke it down
> > > >from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that
>instead of turning it
> > > >into HCL? Is this some company making it right
>now or what. I’m lost. What
> > > >I mean is what is the reason, why make this when
>you can get HCL from it
> > > >and what am I buying if I buy indra?
> > >
> > > Without giving you a direct response… why does
>opium exist and morphine
> > > exist when the manufacturer could go on to make
>heroin? I think indra is the
> > > equivalent of a trade name. Indra can be reached
>at
> > > . You
>might ask them to explain
> > > themselves.
> > >
> > > Howard
> > >
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________________
>Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at
>http://www.space.com.
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
>from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
>http://uk.my.yahoo.com


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cigarette Addiction drives you crazy
Date: April 19, 2002 at 2:02:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 08:49:38PM -0700], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| Cigarettes ‘can cause mental ills’

Is that what’s doing it…?

Who woulda thunK

PatricK

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] advertising
Date: April 18, 2002 at 7:47:01 PM EDT
To: digital@phantom.com

Do not dump all this drivel here.

Seemed like you were asking for help? Anyway, it was interesting
facts-o-life stuff for me.

Bill

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] advertising
Date: April 18, 2002 at 7:23:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 11:04:37PM +0000], [tboz] wrote:

| <Exciting opportunities Edited ouT>

Dude, that’s all terribly exciting.  All I wanna know is…  Can you get
BD Medical Devices to manufacture syringes with a MindVox logo on ’em…?

Seriously, please…  Do not dump all this drivel here.  I can lock down
the list and release messages by approval — meaning: they pertain to the
topic of ibogaine and/or addiction, however vaguely.  But that’s a pain in
the ass.

I realize I prolly should not have posted the gov/mil thing which filled
me with glee and paranoia all at once, but just send me email so that I
can add you to my filter and proceed to ignore you; or throw it into the
vox list, which is all about high volume noise on the topic of Nothing in
particulaR.

Thank you

Patrick

Okay…  I WILL read my email now.  I can do this.  Killing spam, chain
letters, and not reading the lists, there are only 450 messages to go.  I
CAN DO THIS…  Unless, I rationalize a way to put it off until tomorrow,
or an emergency takes place…  Emergencies are always taking place, it
prolly would not be my fault…  At all…

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Hep C May Kill More than AIDS
Date: April 18, 2002 at 10:15:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, actupny@panix.com, “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>, GroveDS@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Mon, 22 Apr 2002
Source: Newsweek (US)
Copyright: 2002 Newsweek, Inc.
Contact: letters@newsweek.com
Website: http://www.msnbc.com/news/NW-front_Front.asp
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/309
Section: Health, page 47
Author: Goeffrey Cowley

HEPATITIS C: THE INSIDIOUS SPREAD OF A KILLER VIRUS

This Stealthy Disease Can Incubate For Decades. Now Thousands Of People Are
Getting Sick. By 2010 It May Strike Down More Americans Each Year Than AIDS.

Merrily Anderson was an actuary’s dream when her life-insurance policy came
up for renewal three years ago. At 50 years old, she had enjoyed good
health and a happy marriage all her adult life. There was no illness in her
family.

Her job was stable, and her lovely twin daughters had just turned 21. When
the insurance agent suggested applying for a discounted rate, she supplied
urine and blood samples and figured she was a shoo-in. She wasn’t. When the
agent called back, he said the whole application had been nixed, and
suggested she write the company to ask why. Anderson dashed off a note
before leaving on a brief vacation with her husband, and the answer was
lodged in a stack of mail when they got home.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n746.a04.html

——————————

From: “tboz” <tboz@subdimension.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] advertising
Date: April 18, 2002 at 7:04:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m signed here to read the ibogaine list, I’ll keep it
short because I don’t really understand what you’re doing
but marketing and sales is something I know about more then
ibogaine.

Slashdot has no business model besides being purchased by
V.A. Linux and folded into OSDN. VA is under investigation
by the SEC and sliding into it’s grave. It makes no money.
It has never made any money except at the IPO. Standard dot
com business model. Not applicable.

High Times publishes a magazine and sells products and sells
their telephone support for beating drug tests. They
probably lose money on their web site. Not applicable.

Fucked Company was in the right place at the right time and
is about the destruction of dot com.

What is applicable is that you rate very high on a
verifiable third party ratings system which is owned by
Amazon. Alexa. Amazon pays for advertising on certain sites.
You rank high based on their own ranking system. It is
likely that people who use Mindvox would purchase products
related to drug culture and technolgy from Amazon.

If you are not making some kind of profit, which I don’t
understand because then what you have here is a hobby which
must be costing you thousands a month to maintain, you
certainly could be.

I’d be more then happy to assist you with finding sources of
revenue and writing contracts for points 🙂 You don’t
profit, I don’t make any money.

The first thing you need to do is place a Adult Content sign
somewhere on your site or in the html, or some civic group
will find a way to sue your advertisers when they get angry
with you. And they will, this will happen, believe me.

Sending you a attachment in private email

If anyone reading this is running a site with a traffic
ranking of 50,000 or higher as verifiable on Alexa and you’d
like the same offer, please email me. I want no money except
a percent of money that I make for you. There are no fees,
no costs, my references and work history available upon
request to qualified parties.

Tboz

_____________________________________________________________________
// free anonymous email || forums \\ subZINE || anonymous browsing
subDIMENSION — http://www.subdimension.com

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 5:47:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey, am I the only one who doesn’t understand what’s all this about? Which system isn’t opened and why? And HoWWW? (jeez, it must be CONtageous, now even i STARted to write like mimicking someOn-e…

Marko

At 23:22 18.4.2002, you wrote:

If you would just buy a small-mug everytime you had the urge to tell
patrick to open the system.. everything would be okay..

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/Store/

BUY NOW!

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Pinky White wrote:

>
> Hmmm. That’s a tough one Patrick.
> Why don’t you………………………………………………………………
>
> O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M
>
> You just broke 20,000 and passed Attrition. There are no “hacker” sites left which outrank you.
>
> Throw the links in the garbage, take P A Y I N G banners from real companies that can afford it. Beer goes great with mindvox, light a cigarette and surf Vox, click for porn, check out this headshop. Things like that.
>
> Then O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M
>
> Here’s what you’re competing with
>
> slashdot 1563
>
> fuckedcompany 3840
>
> hightimes 9346
>
> You know what they all have in common? They’re O P E N. You’re not. You are doing magic with little content, no registered users because there is nothing to login to. If you can do all that with some rants, your media kit and nothing but attitude. You’ll break the top 1000 nearly instantly if you O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M.
>
> None of that will make you wealthy overnight.
>
> Taking any of my advice will make you a few thousand a month and cause V.C.’s to at least look at you.
>
>
>
>   “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:23:23PM -0700], [Bill Ross] wrote:
>
> | It’s basically exactly whut Bill just sed’: dudes and dudettes at these
> | locations, hangin’ out and Surfing the Net! According to Statistics and
> | Other Lies, this is sumwhere well below .01%, so it’s really not out of
> | wack.
> |
> | (There are 528 total locations, about 400 with repeat visits.)
> |
> | 1261 total hits – “well below .01%” means that’s out of over 12610000
> | total hits. Now I’m more worried that that’s not _enough_ hits from the
> | gov’t. 🙂
>
> Look, there is really only one question here and one statement.
>
> Question: How do we become FABULOUSLY WEALTHY from this — overnight, if
> at all possible — now that .dot.bomb has melted down.
>
> Statement: Clearly none of us are of arabic descent. Clearly, THE ENEMY
> *destroyed* our office building! Fully Documented Conclusive Proof:
>
> http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/About/Photos.html
>
> (Scroll down to Trashed Building nExt to WTC).
>
> We are all on the Same Exact Page Bible> DRUGS, GUNS, and KILL FOR PEACE! Yeah mahn.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> ———————————
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: dross <dross@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 5:22:44 PM EDT
To: Pinky White <uselessaccount24@yahoo.com>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If you would just buy a small-mug everytime you had the urge to tell
patrick to open the system.. everything would be okay..

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/Store/

BUY NOW!

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Pinky White wrote:

Hmmm. That’s a tough one Patrick.
Why don’t you………………………………………………………………

O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M

You just broke 20,000 and passed Attrition. There are no “hacker” sites left which outrank you.

Throw the links in the garbage, take P A Y I N G banners from real companies that can afford it. Beer goes great with mindvox, light a cigarette and surf Vox, click for porn, check out this headshop. Things like that.

Then O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M

Here’s what you’re competing with

slashdot 1563

fuckedcompany 3840

hightimes 9346

You know what they all have in common? They’re O P E N. You’re not. You are doing magic with little content, no registered users because there is nothing to login to. If you can do all that with some rants, your media kit and nothing but attitude. You’ll break the top 1000 nearly instantly if you O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M.

None of that will make you wealthy overnight.

Taking any of my advice will make you a few thousand a month and cause V.C.’s to at least look at you.

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:23:23PM -0700], [Bill Ross] wrote:

| It’s basically exactly whut Bill just sed’: dudes and dudettes at these
| locations, hangin’ out and Surfing the Net! According to Statistics and
| Other Lies, this is sumwhere well below .01%, so it’s really not out of
| wack.
|
| (There are 528 total locations, about 400 with repeat visits.)
|
| 1261 total hits – “well below .01%” means that’s out of over 12610000
| total hits. Now I’m more worried that that’s not _enough_ hits from the
| gov’t. 🙂

Look, there is really only one question here and one statement.

Question: How do we become FABULOUSLY WEALTHY from this — overnight, if
at all possible — now that .dot.bomb has melted down.

Statement: Clearly none of us are of arabic descent. Clearly, THE ENEMY
*destroyed* our office building! Fully Documented Conclusive Proof:

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/About/Photos.html

(Scroll down to Trashed Building nExt to WTC).

We are all on the Same Exact Page Bible> DRUGS, GUNS, and KILL FOR PEACE! Yeah mahn.

Patrick

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: Pinky White <uselessaccount24@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 4:52:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hmmm. That’s a tough one Patrick.
Why don’t you………………………………………………………………
O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M
You just broke 20,000 and passed Attrition. There are no “hacker” sites left which outrank you.
Throw the links in the garbage, take P A Y I N G banners from real companies that can afford it. Beer goes great with mindvox, light a cigarette and surf Vox, click for porn, check out this headshop. Things like that.
Then O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M
Here’s what you’re competing with
slashdot 1563
fuckedcompany 3840
hightimes 9346
You know what they all have in common? They’re O P E N. You’re not. You are doing magic with little content, no registered users because there is nothing to login to. If you can do all that with some rants, your media kit and nothing but attitude. You’ll break the top 1000 nearly instantly if you O P E N T H E F U C K I N G S Y S T E M.
None of that will make you wealthy overnight.
Taking any of my advice will make you a few thousand a month and cause V.C.’s to at least look at you.

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:23:23PM -0700], [Bill Ross] wrote:

| It’s basically exactly whut Bill just sed’: dudes and dudettes at these
| locations, hangin’ out and Surfing the Net! According to Statistics and
| Other Lies, this is sumwhere well below .01%, so it’s really not out of
| wack.
|
| (There are 528 total locations, about 400 with repeat visits.)
|
| 1261 total hits – “well below .01%” means that’s out of over 12610000
| total hits. Now I’m more worried that that’s not _enough_ hits from the
| gov’t. 🙂

Look, there is really only one question here and one statement.

Question: How do we become FABULOUSLY WEALTHY from this — overnight, if
at all possible — now that .dot.bomb has melted down.

Statement: Clearly none of us are of arabic descent. Clearly, THE ENEMY
*destroyed* our office building! Fully Documented Conclusive Proof:

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/About/Photos.html

(Scroll down to Trashed Building nExt to WTC).

We are all on the Same Exact Page
Bible> DRUGS, GUNS, and KILL FOR PEACE! Yeah mahn.

Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [vox] Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 4:27:56 PM EDT
To: vox@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: vox@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:23:23PM -0700], [Bill Ross] wrote:

| It’s basically exactly whut Bill just sed’: dudes and dudettes at these
| locations, hangin’ out and Surfing the Net!  According to Statistics and
| Other Lies, this is sumwhere well below .01%, so it’s really not out of
| wack.
|
| (There are 528 total locations, about 400 with repeat visits.)
|
| 1261 total hits – “well below .01%” means that’s out of over 12610000
| total hits. Now I’m more worried that that’s not _enough_ hits from the
| gov’t. 🙂

Look, there is really only one question here and one statement.

Question: How do we become FABULOUSLY WEALTHY from this — overnight, if
at all possible — now that .dot.bomb has melted down.

Statement: Clearly none of us are of arabic descent.  Clearly, THE ENEMY
*destroyed* our office building!  Fully Documented Conclusive Proof:

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/About/Photos.html

(Scroll down to Trashed Building nExt to WTC).

We are all on the Same Exact Page <waving American Flag, reading from
Bible> DRUGS, GUNS, and KILL FOR PEACE!  Yeah mahn.

Patrick

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 4:23:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s basically exactly whut Bill just sed’: dudes and dudettes at these
locations, hangin’ out and Surfing the Net!  According to Statistics and
Other Lies, this is sumwhere well below .01%, so it’s really not out of
wack.

(There are 528 total locations, about 400 with repeat visits.)

1261 total hits – “well below .01%” means that’s out of over 12610000
total hits. Now I’m more worried that that’s not _enough_ hits from the
gov’t. 🙂

Bill Ross

From: dross <dross@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 4:13:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

did anybody else find this entry odd?

16824859 208.213.152.2 cox-smoker.thailand.navy.mil

wtf?

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

On [Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 03:58:23PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| what’s with all the what appears to my not-so-computer-literate self as
| military stopping by?
| Peace,
| Preston

It’s basically exactly whut Bill just sed’: dudes and dudettes at these
locations, hangin’ out and Surfing the Net!  According to Statistics and
Other Lies, this is sumwhere well below .01%, so it’s really not out of
wack.  95% is prolly people dicking around, 5% is someone doing research
on the coMputEr undergroUnd or security.

Anybody who is actually The Men in Grey, would fall under that mountain of
IP’s which do not reverse resolve, are behind proxies and firewalls
sumplace, and prolly coming out of a .dot.com address for that matter.

z00m,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 4:09:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 03:58:23PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| what’s with all the what appears to my not-so-computer-literate self as
| military stopping by?
| Peace,
| Preston

It’s basically exactly whut Bill just sed’: dudes and dudettes at these
locations, hangin’ out and Surfing the Net!  According to Statistics and
Other Lies, this is sumwhere well below .01%, so it’s really not out of
wack.  95% is prolly people dicking around, 5% is someone doing research
on the coMputEr undergroUnd or security.

Anybody who is actually The Men in Grey, would fall under that mountain of
IP’s which do not reverse resolve, are behind proxies and firewalls
sumplace, and prolly coming out of a .dot.com address for that matter.

z00m,

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 3:58:23 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

what’s with all the what appears to my not-so-computer-literate self as
military stopping by?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <vox@mindvox.com>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:52 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!

I wonder if we should put up like a WELCOME sign or sumthin’

This is a half-assed, incomplete, not finished pass through the logs for
the last 30 days … and this is just the shit that reverse resolves…
and just MindVox, it duz’ not include any of the other domains or ib0ga1ne
things.

woo hoo

– – – – – – – – –

16696054 140.183.236.174 computer174.belvoir.army.mil
16696054 132.30.199.1 charon.lajes.af.mil
16696054 132.18.128.3 BBF2.mcguire.af.mil
16696054 137.242.1.50 kelsatxp1.kelly.af.mil
16696054 158.38.0.201 fs.lksk.mil.no
16696054 195.116.133.212 tau.wp.mil.pl
16696054 155.88.4.124 swt004124.swt.usace.army.mil
16696054 131.10.254.22 foxtrot3.barksdale.af.mil
16696054 144.51.190.81 sizzlestick.ncsc.mil
16696054 128.63.55.70 mailrm1.arl.army.mil
16696054 155.78.162.253 anad91h.nad.usace.army.mil
16696054 204.5.65.62 spfwall.ssp.navy.mil
16696054 144.141.194.2 rnoc1.pacsw.navy.mil
16696054 206.39.111.20 rnoc3.cnrfe.navy.mil
16696054 206.39.111.18 rnoc1.cnrfe.navy.mil
16696054 206.39.111.19 rnoc2.cnrfe.navy.mil
16696054 137.247.2.6 zeus.clf.navy.mil
16696054 137.247.2.7 thor.clf.navy.mil
16696054 192.156.26.35 gate2.mfr.usmc.mil
16696054 138.50.80.2 bfce.wiesbaden.army.mil
16696054 151.166.15.122 shepherd2.hurlburt.af.mil
16696054 204.222.250.9 sspafwuser.peosnap.navy.mil
16696054 192.156.13.34 gate1.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.13.35 gate2.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.13.36 gate3.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16696054 132.51.163.1 ranger.rheinmain.af.mil
16696054 137.240.240.244 gargamel.tinker.af.mil
16696054 192.31.174.30 gatekeeper.corona.navy.mil
16696054 192.108.124.40 cerberus.tobyhanna.army.mil
16696054 137.240.240.243 buckalew.tinker.af.mil
16696054 144.51.40.168 conkshell.ncsc.mil
16696054 192.58.199.174 lisa.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.172 homer.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.178 maggie.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.180 patty.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.182 otto.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 131.67.129.144 gd067129144.dcmdw.dcma.mil
16696054 136.216.75.2 bst-bfce.areur.army.mil
16696054 136.207.11.130 bfce.wuerzburg.army.mil
16696054 137.240.135.111 daksha.okc.disa.mil
16696054 132.32.201.5 mib-cits-bh.minot.af.mil
16696054 131.62.15.254 nhpeas-fw.nhpeas.ang.af.mil
16696054 147.198.250.8 cache.drum.army.mil
16696054 199.124.14.6 csp-nat-1.cpf.navy.mil
16696054 132.16.115.10 pegasus.kunsan.af.mil
16696054 132.250.132.66 jake1.nrl.navy.mil
16696054 206.37.141.38 cc1.navysouthtx.navy.mil
16696054 140.155.28.2 bfce.baumholder.army.mil
16696054 147.39.62.2 bfce.shape.army.mil
16696054 198.250.180.194 gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil
16696054 131.10.254.60 papa1.barksdale.af.mil
16696054 128.49.72.1 galaxy.nosc.mil
16696054 132.25.0.205 Pandora.ramstein.af.mil
16696054 55.192.4.214 jp2012a.ang.af.mil
16696054 131.17.177.1 kandy.sheppard.af.mil
16696054 164.105.133.133 ws133133.cnrf.navy.mil
16696054 134.235.0.178 bfce1.tuzla.army.mil
16696054 131.36.117.33 cits-pr.yokota.af.mil
16696054 147.40.250.250 bfce.mannheim.army.mil
16696054 131.81.81.4 195210a4284.dscr.dla.mil
16696054 192.138.38.140 r3cacheflow.ddeamc.amedd.army.mil
16696054 200.37.163.130 ns.marina.mil.pe
16696054 131.51.128.2 lak-fw-2-ext.lakenheath.af.mil
16696054 137.128.100.251 sws1.tacom.army.mil
16696054 131.50.151.7 dmafb.dm.af.mil
16696054 137.80.91.59 kleeseb.hqisec.army.mil
16696054 132.60.7.2 maxproxy.maxwell.af.mil
16696054 140.140.58.5 diamondback.brooks.af.mil
16696054 152.121.33.65 gateway-alameda.uscg.mil
16696054 152.121.36.65 gateway-fincen.uscg.mil
16696054 164.230.99.2 ns2.nadepni.navy.mil
16696054 143.46.200.5 zam200005.jp.pac.army.mil
16696054 144.170.81.8 bfce.heidelberg.army.mil
16696054 205.56.145.34 pacfa.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.145.37 pacfc.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.145.36 pacfb.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.145.38 pacfd.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 137.128.100.252 sws2.tacom.army.mil
16696054 198.22.28.17 sniffer_c.pac.disa.mil
16696054 144.141.170.19 ws170-19.pacsw.navy.mil
16696054 192.5.27.135 FW1.dt.navy.mil
16696054 140.178.33.124 web_cache.kpt.nuwc.navy.mil
16696054 192.108.235.6 wwwgate.benning.army.mil
16696054 136.218.250.14 bfce.ansbach.army.mil
16696054 194.7.234.34 milbesrv034.mil.be
16696054 192.156.75.34 gate1.quantico.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.75.37 gate3.quantico.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.75.35 gate2.quantico.usmc.mil
16696054 155.83.104.253 gspl91h.spl.usace.army.mil
16696054 164.230.99.100 ns100.nadepni.navy.mil
16696054 131.10.254.61 papa2.barksdale.af.mil
16696054 209.22.217.229 ws217-229.nssfnl.navy.mil
16696054 128.63.105.99 pincher.arl.hpc.mil
16696054 160.145.100.120 pc100120.fmmc.army.mil
16696054 164.221.194.4 rnoc3.pacnw.navy.mil
16696054 132.79.8.10 hiacache01.ngb.army.mil
16696054 198.253.37.201 sc037ws201.chs.spawar.navy.mil
16696054 131.38.214.4 B-Kahuna.hickam.af.mil
16696054 205.66.87.2 www.nswstennis.navy.mil
16696054 55.192.4.242 jp2015b.ang.af.mil
16696054 205.56.162.40 noca.ecr.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.162.42 nocc.ecr.navy.mil
16696054 164.229.106.113 106-113.nasjrb.nola.navy.mil
16696054 155.252.254.250 pwc1.pwcnorva.navy.mil
16696054 144.141.194.4 rnoc3.pacsw.navy.mil
16696054 131.120.147.104 eos.gl.nps.navy.mil
16696054 132.79.9.10 hcacache01.ngb.army.mil
16696054 144.51.42.6 thecouch.ncsc.mil
16696054 192.211.98.130 hqhp18out.nexnet.navy.mil
16696054 137.246.53.212 212-53.jfcom.mil
16696054 136.207.249.250 bfce.giebelstadt.army.mil
16696054 198.97.67.59 px3o.wpafb.af.mil
16696054 136.216.80.2 bfce.areur.army.mil
16696054 164.105.232.51 sunproxy.cnrf.navy.mil
16696054 129.198.241.35 ext-enterprise.edwards.af.mil
16696054 147.71.1.3 fb999ce.bliss.army.mil
16696054 199.211.225.194 scully2.mugu.navy.mil
16696054 153.24.88.14 adh-cfproxy.dhafra.af.mil
16696054 132.5.72.5 dns3.holloman.af.mil
16696054 140.156.6.2 bfce.hanau.army.mil
16696054 199.208.201.67 cnefw2.nctams-london.navy.mil
16696054 141.190.250.6 shf250006.hi.pac.army.mil
16696054 134.164.184.211 dloppark.wes.army.mil
16696054 131.38.214.7 kaola.hickam.af.mil
16696054 136.215.199.3 bfce.grafenwoehr.army.mil
16696054 155.79.76.252 sta.ncb.usace.army.mil
16696054 131.120.177.203 M068425.met.nps.navy.mil
16696054 62.70.72.2 mail.hsbs.mil.no
16696054 192.156.37.35 gate2.lejeune.usmc.mil
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16824859 194.247.72.1 mail.dundeecity.gov.uk
16824859 137.78.112.139 dmair.jpl.nasa.gov
16824859 202.42.128.5 proxy5.ttsh.gov.sg
16824859 147.49.1.34 pcvensel.pw.usda.gov
16824859 62.254.240.228 mailhost.newport.gov.uk
16824859 198.81.129.194 relay2.ucia.gov
16824859 130.132.32.231 govdoc2.library.yale.edu
16824859 162.140.64.100 diamond.access.gpo.gov
16824859 212.74.31.130 mail.westsussex.gov.uk
16824859 194.247.83.16 hal.aberdeenshire.gov.uk
16824859 140.172.180.164 apex.ngdc.noaa.gov
16824859 128.149.223.148 alex-kim.jpl.nasa.gov
16824859 198.76.132.22 mhussey.nara.gov
16824859 63.105.37.5 fw1.cis.fed.gov
16824859 159.142.34.146 host.159-142-34-146.gsa.gov
16824859 207.123.131.142 host.207-123-131-142.gsa.gov
16824859 149.136.234.59 nat-234-59.nat.dot.ca.gov
16824859 209.26.188.3 ns.nlecc.gov
16824859 202.7.15.34 proxy34-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
16824859 148.184.176.32 igate2.nrc.gov
16824859 170.97.67.7 proxylm.hud.gov
16824859 131.225.39.175 LSS-54427.dhcp.fnal.gov
16824859 208.157.5.14 swmf.publicdebt.treas.gov
16824859 142.22.16.53 vance003.net.gov.bc.ca
16824859 134.253.26.4 sahp3977.sandia.gov
16824859 205.225.146.66 sco01.sco.ca.gov
16824859 193.123.213.9 scc9.suffolkcc.gov.uk
16824859 143.232.88.155 fml-355.arc.nasa.gov
16824859 129.6.48.7 aa1.ncsl.nist.gov
16824859 161.55.204.182 asmith.wasc.noaa.gov
16824859 128.183.31.119 italian.sewp.nasa.gov
16824859 169.253.4.7 acheson-a1.state.gov
16824859 142.32.208.231 vicce001.net.gov.bc.ca
16824859 208.202.75.99 gatekeeper2.denver.med.va.gov
16824859 207.41.18.3 gatekeeper.ce9.uscourts.gov
16824859 199.75.187.189 host.199-75-187-189.gsa.gov
16824859 149.136.210.221 nat-210-221.nat.dot.ca.gov
16824859 203.5.10.129 inet01.citec.qld.gov.au
16824859 132.200.32.33 fed2.frb.gov
16824859 140.90.161.163 siletz.nos.noaa.gov
16824859 142.32.208.233 vicce003.net.gov.bc.ca
16824859 131.225.226.229 whatever-clued0.fnal.gov
16824859 128.183.147.71 acs1100000526.gsfc.nasa.gov
16824859 134.167.74.50 piercerb.y12.doe.gov
16824859 202.7.15.31 nile-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
16824859 202.7.15.24 cascade-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
16824859 202.7.15.26 dorset-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
16824859 202.7.15.25 weld-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
16824859 4.17.160.241 deptvabed-bh.visn1.med.va.gov
16824859 128.183.111.42 amontoro.gsfc.nasa.gov
16824859 208.196.3.108 machine108.panynj.gov
16824859 163.189.7.36 gw.rta.nsw.gov.au
16824859 202.6.56.2 saturn.ausaid.gov.au
16824859 128.183.82.140 acs1100001995.gsfc.nasa.gov
16824859 170.222.128.6 obp-montpelier-0.govnet.state.vt.us
16824859 141.232.1.10 sgtpepper-qe0.sfwmd.gov
16824859 140.147.38.178 mmgb1026.loc.gov
16824859 165.187.1.98 phq1098.wapol.gov.au
16824859 142.22.16.54 vance004.net.gov.bc.ca
16824859 157.98.8.173 kohn.niehs.nih.gov
16824859 63.82.114.157 P8-157.senate.gov
16824859 199.149.174.131
ohcelinad101.ohcelina.fsc.usda.gov.174.149.199.in-addr.arpa
16824859 156.40.210.210 nscdhcp-156-40-210-210.nimh.nih.gov
16824859 200.50.92.212 bess-proxy.education.gov.bb
16824859 199.151.38.254 nrcs1.ilwatseka.fsc.usda.gov
16824859 199.75.225.204 p2-204.senate.gov
16824859 170.115.189.11 flp2.library.phila.gov
16824859 128.156.10.11 seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov
16824859 156.63.153.159 pix-n153-159.lnoca.ohio.gov
16824859 208.248.162.196 gwip2.vba.va.gov
16824859 205.225.192.66 bogus.dmv.ca.gov
16824859 209.210.72.2 ns1.ftb.ca.gov
16824859 203.11.118.129 proxy.commerce.wa.gov.au
16824859 159.142.34.152 host.159-142-34-152.gsa.gov
16824859 209.128.29.254 gov-2-254.gov.nf.ca
16824859 152.76.0.130 gw1.cs.nsw.gov.au

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 3:58:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lotsa duplicates (408 cases of same machine showing up 2 or 3 times):

% cat list |  awk ‘{print $NF}’ | sort | uniq -c | awk ‘$1 != “1”‘

But assuming you egrepped ‘mil|gov’ from the resolvable list, what
percentage are they of the total resolvables?

Looks like the .mil folk are enjoying the freedom they’re (potentially)
fighting for.

Bill Ross

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Hello we Love you Lots and lotS!
Date: April 18, 2002 at 2:52:34 PM EDT
To: vox@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wonder if we should put up like a WELCOME sign or sumthin’

This is a half-assed, incomplete, not finished pass through the logs for
the last 30 days … and this is just the shit that reverse resolves…
and just MindVox, it duz’ not include any of the other domains or ib0ga1ne
things.

woo hoo

– – – – – – – – –

16696054 140.183.236.174 computer174.belvoir.army.mil
16696054 132.30.199.1 charon.lajes.af.mil
16696054 132.18.128.3 BBF2.mcguire.af.mil
16696054 137.242.1.50 kelsatxp1.kelly.af.mil
16696054 158.38.0.201 fs.lksk.mil.no
16696054 195.116.133.212 tau.wp.mil.pl
16696054 155.88.4.124 swt004124.swt.usace.army.mil
16696054 131.10.254.22 foxtrot3.barksdale.af.mil
16696054 144.51.190.81 sizzlestick.ncsc.mil
16696054 128.63.55.70 mailrm1.arl.army.mil
16696054 155.78.162.253 anad91h.nad.usace.army.mil
16696054 204.5.65.62 spfwall.ssp.navy.mil
16696054 144.141.194.2 rnoc1.pacsw.navy.mil
16696054 206.39.111.20 rnoc3.cnrfe.navy.mil
16696054 206.39.111.18 rnoc1.cnrfe.navy.mil
16696054 206.39.111.19 rnoc2.cnrfe.navy.mil
16696054 137.247.2.6 zeus.clf.navy.mil
16696054 137.247.2.7 thor.clf.navy.mil
16696054 192.156.26.35 gate2.mfr.usmc.mil
16696054 138.50.80.2 bfce.wiesbaden.army.mil
16696054 151.166.15.122 shepherd2.hurlburt.af.mil
16696054 204.222.250.9 sspafwuser.peosnap.navy.mil
16696054 192.156.13.34 gate1.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.13.35 gate2.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.13.36 gate3.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16696054 132.51.163.1 ranger.rheinmain.af.mil
16696054 137.240.240.244 gargamel.tinker.af.mil
16696054 192.31.174.30 gatekeeper.corona.navy.mil
16696054 192.108.124.40 cerberus.tobyhanna.army.mil
16696054 137.240.240.243 buckalew.tinker.af.mil
16696054 144.51.40.168 conkshell.ncsc.mil
16696054 192.58.199.174 lisa.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.172 homer.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.178 maggie.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.180 patty.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 192.58.199.182 otto.nawcad.navy.mil
16696054 131.67.129.144 gd067129144.dcmdw.dcma.mil
16696054 136.216.75.2 bst-bfce.areur.army.mil
16696054 136.207.11.130 bfce.wuerzburg.army.mil
16696054 137.240.135.111 daksha.okc.disa.mil
16696054 132.32.201.5 mib-cits-bh.minot.af.mil
16696054 131.62.15.254 nhpeas-fw.nhpeas.ang.af.mil
16696054 147.198.250.8 cache.drum.army.mil
16696054 199.124.14.6 csp-nat-1.cpf.navy.mil
16696054 132.16.115.10 pegasus.kunsan.af.mil
16696054 132.250.132.66 jake1.nrl.navy.mil
16696054 206.37.141.38 cc1.navysouthtx.navy.mil
16696054 140.155.28.2 bfce.baumholder.army.mil
16696054 147.39.62.2 bfce.shape.army.mil
16696054 198.250.180.194 gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil
16696054 131.10.254.60 papa1.barksdale.af.mil
16696054 128.49.72.1 galaxy.nosc.mil
16696054 132.25.0.205 Pandora.ramstein.af.mil
16696054 55.192.4.214 jp2012a.ang.af.mil
16696054 131.17.177.1 kandy.sheppard.af.mil
16696054 164.105.133.133 ws133133.cnrf.navy.mil
16696054 134.235.0.178 bfce1.tuzla.army.mil
16696054 131.36.117.33 cits-pr.yokota.af.mil
16696054 147.40.250.250 bfce.mannheim.army.mil
16696054 131.81.81.4 195210a4284.dscr.dla.mil
16696054 192.138.38.140 r3cacheflow.ddeamc.amedd.army.mil
16696054 200.37.163.130 ns.marina.mil.pe
16696054 131.51.128.2 lak-fw-2-ext.lakenheath.af.mil
16696054 137.128.100.251 sws1.tacom.army.mil
16696054 131.50.151.7 dmafb.dm.af.mil
16696054 137.80.91.59 kleeseb.hqisec.army.mil
16696054 132.60.7.2 maxproxy.maxwell.af.mil
16696054 140.140.58.5 diamondback.brooks.af.mil
16696054 152.121.33.65 gateway-alameda.uscg.mil
16696054 152.121.36.65 gateway-fincen.uscg.mil
16696054 164.230.99.2 ns2.nadepni.navy.mil
16696054 143.46.200.5 zam200005.jp.pac.army.mil
16696054 144.170.81.8 bfce.heidelberg.army.mil
16696054 205.56.145.34 pacfa.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.145.37 pacfc.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.145.36 pacfb.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.145.38 pacfd.fleet.navy.mil
16696054 137.128.100.252 sws2.tacom.army.mil
16696054 198.22.28.17 sniffer_c.pac.disa.mil
16696054 144.141.170.19 ws170-19.pacsw.navy.mil
16696054 192.5.27.135 FW1.dt.navy.mil
16696054 140.178.33.124 web_cache.kpt.nuwc.navy.mil
16696054 192.108.235.6 wwwgate.benning.army.mil
16696054 136.218.250.14 bfce.ansbach.army.mil
16696054 194.7.234.34 milbesrv034.mil.be
16696054 192.156.75.34 gate1.quantico.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.75.37 gate3.quantico.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.75.35 gate2.quantico.usmc.mil
16696054 155.83.104.253 gspl91h.spl.usace.army.mil
16696054 164.230.99.100 ns100.nadepni.navy.mil
16696054 131.10.254.61 papa2.barksdale.af.mil
16696054 209.22.217.229 ws217-229.nssfnl.navy.mil
16696054 128.63.105.99 pincher.arl.hpc.mil
16696054 160.145.100.120 pc100120.fmmc.army.mil
16696054 164.221.194.4 rnoc3.pacnw.navy.mil
16696054 132.79.8.10 hiacache01.ngb.army.mil
16696054 198.253.37.201 sc037ws201.chs.spawar.navy.mil
16696054 131.38.214.4 B-Kahuna.hickam.af.mil
16696054 205.66.87.2 www.nswstennis.navy.mil
16696054 55.192.4.242 jp2015b.ang.af.mil
16696054 205.56.162.40 noca.ecr.navy.mil
16696054 205.56.162.42 nocc.ecr.navy.mil
16696054 164.229.106.113 106-113.nasjrb.nola.navy.mil
16696054 155.252.254.250 pwc1.pwcnorva.navy.mil
16696054 144.141.194.4 rnoc3.pacsw.navy.mil
16696054 131.120.147.104 eos.gl.nps.navy.mil
16696054 132.79.9.10 hcacache01.ngb.army.mil
16696054 144.51.42.6 thecouch.ncsc.mil
16696054 192.211.98.130 hqhp18out.nexnet.navy.mil
16696054 137.246.53.212 212-53.jfcom.mil
16696054 136.207.249.250 bfce.giebelstadt.army.mil
16696054 198.97.67.59 px3o.wpafb.af.mil
16696054 136.216.80.2 bfce.areur.army.mil
16696054 164.105.232.51 sunproxy.cnrf.navy.mil
16696054 129.198.241.35 ext-enterprise.edwards.af.mil
16696054 147.71.1.3 fb999ce.bliss.army.mil
16696054 199.211.225.194 scully2.mugu.navy.mil
16696054 153.24.88.14 adh-cfproxy.dhafra.af.mil
16696054 132.5.72.5 dns3.holloman.af.mil
16696054 140.156.6.2 bfce.hanau.army.mil
16696054 199.208.201.67 cnefw2.nctams-london.navy.mil
16696054 141.190.250.6 shf250006.hi.pac.army.mil
16696054 134.164.184.211 dloppark.wes.army.mil
16696054 131.38.214.7 kaola.hickam.af.mil
16696054 136.215.199.3 bfce.grafenwoehr.army.mil
16696054 155.79.76.252 sta.ncb.usace.army.mil
16696054 131.120.177.203 M068425.met.nps.navy.mil
16696054 62.70.72.2 mail.hsbs.mil.no
16696054 192.156.37.35 gate2.lejeune.usmc.mil
16696054 192.156.37.37 gate4.lejeune.usmc.mil
16696054 136.205.16.3 netcache2.redstone.army.mil
16696054 143.81.8.34 proxy.kuwait.army.mil
16696054 192.156.65.35 gate2.mcbh.usmc.mil
16696054 207.133.191.34 34.yongsan.af.mil
16696054 144.141.222.139 ws222-139.pacsw.navy.mil
16696054 198.97.67.57 px1o.wpafb.af.mil
16696054 139.139.250.10 bfce.giessen.army.mil
16696054 164.227.192.227 a192-227.crane.navy.mil
16696054 150.137.14.8 sch014008.hi.pac.army.mil
16696054 164.224.250.80 noca.hq.navy.mil
16696054 164.224.250.81 nocb.hq.navy.mil
16696054 132.52.154.50 trigger.vance.af.mil
16696054 209.207.51.115 dial-115.mil.mwci.net
16696054 208.213.152.2 nat-002.gwillness.osd.mil
16696054 144.141.187.179 ws187-179.navsoc.navy.mil
16699247 129.139.181.176 qedmath2.pica.army.mil
16699278 155.148.3.73 helstf.wsmr.army.mil
16764154 129.139.181.176 qedmath2.pica.army.mil
16764154 155.148.3.73 helstf.wsmr.army.mil
16764154 205.56.145.34 pacfa.fleet.navy.mil
16764154 205.56.145.36 pacfb.fleet.navy.mil
16764154 205.56.145.37 pacfc.fleet.navy.mil
16764154 205.56.145.38 pacfd.fleet.navy.mil
16764357 140.183.236.174 computer174.belvoir.army.mil
16764357 155.252.229.239 mer13.efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil
16764357 137.242.1.50 kelsatxp1.kelly.af.mil
16764357 158.38.0.201 fs.lksk.mil.no
16764357 159.121.133.230 or-proxy-02.mil.state.or.us
16764357 195.116.133.212 tau.wp.mil.pl
16764357 155.88.4.124 swt004124.swt.usace.army.mil
16764357 131.10.254.22 foxtrot3.barksdale.af.mil
16764357 144.51.190.81 sizzlestick.ncsc.mil
16764357 128.63.55.70 mailrm1.arl.army.mil
16764357 155.78.162.253 anad91h.nad.usace.army.mil
16764357 144.141.194.2 rnoc1.pacsw.navy.mil
16764357 206.39.111.20 rnoc3.cnrfe.navy.mil
16764357 206.39.111.18 rnoc1.cnrfe.navy.mil
16764357 206.39.111.19 rnoc2.cnrfe.navy.mil
16764357 137.247.2.6 zeus.clf.navy.mil
16764357 137.247.2.7 thor.clf.navy.mil
16764357 138.50.80.2 bfce.wiesbaden.army.mil
16764357 151.166.15.122 shepherd2.hurlburt.af.mil
16764357 204.222.250.9 sspafwuser.peosnap.navy.mil
16764357 192.156.13.34 gate1.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16764357 192.156.13.35 gate2.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16764357 192.156.13.36 gate3.mcbbutler.usmc.mil
16764357 132.51.163.1 ranger.rheinmain.af.mil
16764357 137.240.240.244 gargamel.tinker.af.mil
16764357 192.31.174.30 gatekeeper.corona.navy.mil
16764357 192.108.124.40 cerberus.tobyhanna.army.mil
16764357 137.240.240.243 buckalew.tinker.af.mil
16764357 144.51.40.168 conkshell.ncsc.mil
16764357 192.58.199.174 lisa.nawcad.navy.mil
16764357 192.58.199.172 homer.nawcad.navy.mil
16764357 192.58.199.178 maggie.nawcad.navy.mil
16764357 192.58.199.180 patty.nawcad.navy.mil
16764357 192.58.199.182 otto.nawcad.navy.mil
16764357 136.216.75.2 bst-bfce.areur.army.mil
16764357 136.207.11.130 bfce.wuerzburg.army.mil
16764357 131.62.15.254 nhpeas-fw.nhpeas.ang.af.mil
16764357 147.198.250.8 cache.drum.army.mil
16764357 199.124.14.6 csp-nat-1.cpf.navy.mil
16764357 132.16.115.10 pegasus.kunsan.af.mil
16764357 132.250.132.66 jake1.nrl.navy.mil
16764357 206.37.141.38 cc1.navysouthtx.navy.mil
16764357 140.155.28.2 bfce.baumholder.army.mil
16764357 147.39.62.2 bfce.shape.army.mil
16764357 198.250.180.194 gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil
16764357 131.10.254.60 papa1.barksdale.af.mil
16764357 128.49.72.1 galaxy.nosc.mil
16764357 132.25.0.205 Pandora.ramstein.af.mil
16764357 55.192.4.214 jp2012a.ang.af.mil
16764357 131.17.177.1 kandy.sheppard.af.mil
16764357 164.105.133.133 ws133133.cnrf.navy.mil
16764357 147.40.250.250 bfce.mannheim.army.mil
16764357 131.81.81.4 195210a4284.dscr.dla.mil
16764357 192.138.38.140 r3cacheflow.ddeamc.amedd.army.mil
16764357 200.37.163.130 ns.marina.mil.pe
16764357 131.51.128.2 lak-fw-1.lakenheath.af.mil
16764357 137.128.100.251 sws1.tacom.army.mil
16764357 131.50.151.7 dmafb.dm.af.mil
16764357 137.80.91.59 kleeseb.hqisec.army.mil
16764357 140.140.58.5 diamondback.brooks.af.mil
16764357 164.230.99.2 ns2.nadepni.navy.mil
16764357 143.46.200.5 zam200005.jp.pac.army.mil
16764357 144.170.81.8 bfce.heidelberg.army.mil
16764357 137.128.100.252 sws2.tacom.army.mil
16764357 198.22.28.17 sniffer_c.pac.disa.mil
16764357 144.141.170.19 ws170-19.pacsw.navy.mil
16764357 192.5.27.135 FW1.dt.navy.mil
16764357 140.178.33.124 web_cache.kpt.nuwc.navy.mil
16764357 192.108.235.6 wwwgate.benning.army.mil
16764357 136.218.250.14 bfce.ansbach.army.mil
16764357 194.7.234.34 milbesrv034.mil.be
16764357 155.83.104.253 gspl91h.spl.usace.army.mil
16764357 164.230.99.100 ns100.nadepni.navy.mil
16764357 131.10.254.61 papa2.barksdale.af.mil
16764357 209.22.217.229 ws217-229.nssfnl.navy.mil
16764357 128.63.105.99 pincher.arl.hpc.mil
16764357 160.145.100.120 pc100120.fmmc.army.mil
16764357 164.221.194.4 rnoc3.pacnw.navy.mil
16764357 132.79.8.10 hiacache01.ngb.army.mil
16764357 198.253.37.201 sc037ws201.chs.spawar.navy.mil
16764357 131.38.214.4 b-kahuna.hickam.af.mil
16764357 205.66.87.2 www.nswstennis.navy.mil
16764357 55.192.4.242 jp2015b.ang.af.mil
16764357 205.56.162.40 noca.ecr.navy.mil
16764357 205.56.162.42 nocc.ecr.navy.mil
16764357 164.229.106.113 106-113.nasjrb.nola.navy.mil
16764357 155.252.254.250 pwc1.pwcnorva.navy.mil
16764357 144.141.194.4 rnoc3.pacsw.navy.mil
16764357 131.120.147.104 eos.gl.nps.navy.mil
16764357 132.79.9.10 hcacache01.ngb.army.mil
16764357 144.51.42.6 thecouch.ncsc.mil
16764357 155.252.120.190 1236_102_01du.thirdncb.navy.mil
16764357 192.211.98.130 hqhp18out.nexnet.navy.mil
16764357 137.246.53.212 212-53.jfcom.mil
16764357 136.207.249.250 bfce.giebelstadt.army.mil
16764357 198.97.67.59 px3o.wpafb.af.mil
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16764357 194.247.83.16 hal.aberdeenshire.gov.uk
16764357 140.172.180.164 apex.ngdc.noaa.gov
16764357 128.149.223.148 alex-kim.jpl.nasa.gov
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16764357 149.136.234.59 nat-234-59.nat.dot.ca.gov
16764357 202.7.15.34 proxy34-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
16764357 148.184.176.32 igate2.nrc.gov
16764357 170.97.67.7 proxylm.hud.gov
16764357 131.225.39.175 LSS-54427.dhcp.fnal.gov
16764357 208.157.5.14 swmf.publicdebt.treas.gov
16764357 142.22.16.53 vance003.net.gov.bc.ca
16764357 134.253.26.4 sahp3977.sandia.gov
16764357 205.225.146.66 sco01.sco.ca.gov
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16824859 199.196.144.13 tias-gw3.treas.gov
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16824859 198.187.4.251 c1.dpa.ca.gov
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16824859 199.173.224.2 s3abab9.ssa.gov
16824859 159.145.140.181 DCA-140-181.dca.ca.gov
16824859 56.0.96.14 gk-east-4.usps.gov
16824859 128.231.4.188 cox.niddk.nih.gov
16824859 204.4.3.10 keymaster.dol-esa.gov
16824859 209.116.240.11 host3.fema.gov
16824859 128.154.1.201 ldun.wff.nasa.gov
16824859 209.49.118.18 tcs-gateway11.treas.gov
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16824859 169.253.4.1 acheson.state.gov
16824859 150.144.30.179 plume.nascom.nasa.gov
16824859 212.250.79.131 ip131.caerphilly.gov.uk
16824859 137.187.203.18 nidcr203-18.nidcr.nih.gov
16824859 128.183.173.71 breffni.gsfc.nasa.gov
16824859 128.231.230.228 d10-230-228.niaid.nih.gov
16824859 202.0.106.130 inside.slnsw.gov.au
16824859 195.11.221.226 mailgate.highland.gov.uk
16824859 196.3.12.75 196-003-012-075.dtop.gov.pr
16824859 143.232.202.56 ji202056.arc.nasa.gov
16824859 156.40.64.199 parachute1-156-40-64-199.net.nih.gov
16824859 203.20.98.67 fw.tourism.nsw.gov.au
16824859 163.195.1.52 proxy1.gov.za
16824859 145.229.156.40 Bouncer.nics.gov.uk
16824859 165.112.139.56 dhcp165112139056.cit.nih.gov
16824859 63.82.115.100 P9-100.senate.gov
16824859 137.78.90.73 rambam.jpl.nasa.gov
16824859 194.201.65.65 mailserv.wrekin.gov.uk
16824859 136.181.195.29 d29.michigan.gov
16824859 146.137.28.89 bschmidt.med.anl.gov
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16824859 199.214.45.2 is.aoc.gov.ab.ca
16824859 202.27.54.3 inetgate.dsw.govt.nz
16824859 140.147.129.65 mder.loc.gov
16824859 165.142.241.129 doj61825.justice.vic.gov.au
16824859 199.247.128.35 zeke.gov.yk.ca
16824859 203.13.13.69 top1pr1.centrelink.gov.au
16824859 156.40.211.46 nscdhcp-156-40-211-46.nimh.nih.gov
16824859 199.214.175.1 n175en1.resdev.gov.ab.ca
16824859 146.139.32.41 reyoda.re.anl.gov
16824859 137.157.8.253 tachyon.gw.ansto.gov.au
16824859 164.54.50.159 diag22a.aps.anl.gov
16824859 202.22.16.204 unknown.ooc.parliament.govt.nz
16824859 130.11.63.220 rnp820.er.usgs.gov
16824859 202.186.20.74 oldqsmp.mint.gov.my
16824859 203.3.64.254 sptmail2.goldcoast.qld.gov.au
16824859 193.132.237.1 internet.fsa.gov.uk
16824859 198.76.170.19 beaadmin.bea.doc.gov
16824859 204.124.92.235 Denver-235.blm.gov
16824859 209.202.90.41 p1-209-202-90-41.govital.net
16824859 212.122.161.102 msatmx.government.bg
16824859 194.247.72.1 mail.dundeecity.gov.uk
16824859 137.78.112.139 dmair.jpl.nasa.gov
16824859 202.42.128.5 proxy5.ttsh.gov.sg
16824859 147.49.1.34 pcvensel.pw.usda.gov
16824859 62.254.240.228 mailhost.newport.gov.uk
16824859 198.81.129.194 relay2.ucia.gov
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16824859 162.140.64.100 diamond.access.gpo.gov
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16824859 194.247.83.16 hal.aberdeenshire.gov.uk
16824859 140.172.180.164 apex.ngdc.noaa.gov
16824859 128.149.223.148 alex-kim.jpl.nasa.gov
16824859 198.76.132.22 mhussey.nara.gov
16824859 63.105.37.5 fw1.cis.fed.gov
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16824859 202.7.15.34 proxy34-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
16824859 148.184.176.32 igate2.nrc.gov
16824859 170.97.67.7 proxylm.hud.gov
16824859 131.225.39.175 LSS-54427.dhcp.fnal.gov
16824859 208.157.5.14 swmf.publicdebt.treas.gov
16824859 142.22.16.53 vance003.net.gov.bc.ca
16824859 134.253.26.4 sahp3977.sandia.gov
16824859 205.225.146.66 sco01.sco.ca.gov
16824859 193.123.213.9 scc9.suffolkcc.gov.uk
16824859 143.232.88.155 fml-355.arc.nasa.gov
16824859 129.6.48.7 aa1.ncsl.nist.gov
16824859 161.55.204.182 asmith.wasc.noaa.gov
16824859 128.183.31.119 italian.sewp.nasa.gov
16824859 169.253.4.7 acheson-a1.state.gov
16824859 142.32.208.231 vicce001.net.gov.bc.ca
16824859 208.202.75.99 gatekeeper2.denver.med.va.gov
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16824859 132.200.32.33 fed2.frb.gov
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16824859 131.225.226.229 whatever-clued0.fnal.gov
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16824859 202.7.15.26 dorset-ext.nt.tas.gov.au
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16824859 141.232.1.10 sgtpepper-qe0.sfwmd.gov
16824859 140.147.38.178 mmgb1026.loc.gov
16824859 165.187.1.98 phq1098.wapol.gov.au
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16824859 157.98.8.173 kohn.niehs.nih.gov
16824859 63.82.114.157 P8-157.senate.gov
16824859 199.149.174.131 ohcelinad101.ohcelina.fsc.usda.gov.174.149.199.in-addr.arpa
16824859 156.40.210.210 nscdhcp-156-40-210-210.nimh.nih.gov
16824859 200.50.92.212 bess-proxy.education.gov.bb
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16824859 199.75.225.204 p2-204.senate.gov
16824859 170.115.189.11 flp2.library.phila.gov
16824859 128.156.10.11 seraph2.lerc.nasa.gov
16824859 156.63.153.159 pix-n153-159.lnoca.ohio.gov
16824859 208.248.162.196 gwip2.vba.va.gov
16824859 205.225.192.66 bogus.dmv.ca.gov
16824859 209.210.72.2 ns1.ftb.ca.gov
16824859 203.11.118.129 proxy.commerce.wa.gov.au
16824859 159.142.34.152 host.159-142-34-152.gsa.gov
16824859 209.128.29.254 gov-2-254.gov.nf.ca
16824859 152.76.0.130 gw1.cs.nsw.gov.au

From: Pinky White <uselessaccount24@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] All access is a security violation
Date: April 17, 2002 at 11:16:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My work is never done.
Whatever you people did you made your servers so secure that nobody can access them.
Your machines have been sitting there all day, they ping, they are alive and on the net.
And you probably haven’t noticed that nobody except you and whatever you put into the tcp/ip wrappers or firewall rules, can get through.
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: April 17, 2002 at 12:46:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Carl Waltenburg <saucertrips@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:42:24 +0100 (BST)

Dear friends
Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion on
the Net as to what is what I would like to make a
comment to the statement attached below.The book I
came across when I returned from the Kilimanjaro was
not Schultes’&Hofmann’s “Plants of the gods”.It was
their “botany and chemistry of hallucinogens”.Apart
from correcting that error the statement deserves some
further clarification…
What is “Indra”?
“Indra” was the name chosen for an internet shop
selling ethnobotanical specialties for shamanic use.
I happened to know the guys who started the shop and
gave them some of my Iboga extract so that they could
make it commercially available.
I am not so happy with the way that went down.Although
they surely distributed substantial amounts of the
stuff,I did not see much of any benign influence from
their endeavour,(nor did I see any money coming my way
from providing the stuff to them in the first place).
It stands to reason,when I view the episode in
retrospect,that entheogens and sacred plants and their
congeners should not be handled by people whose only
religion is money,whose only incentive is profit and
who approach me with an intent to GET whateveritis
from me to take personal advantage of the situation.
The Iboga extract that was released to the world
through this conduit was,however,remarkably safe and
sort of tailor-made for the elimination of addictive
demands and applicable over a wide variety of
drug-related problematiques.Crystalline Ibogaine HCL
is to this extract somewhat like taking ONE active
ingredient out of a plant with at least EIGHTEEN
different active ingredients.You end up with a
different pharmacodynamic profile,and also something
quite toxic in the dosages proposed (e.g.1000
milligrams) and hence impossible to administer under
any but highly supervised clinical settings.
Considering the popularity of another historically
known Iboga extract called “Lambarene” in the early
days of the 20th century,experience shows that this is
a promising field indeed,but only as good as the
players in it…
cordially,Carl W.
>
> >From: vector6@space.com
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
> >Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)

>

> ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
> Reply-to: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> From: vector6@space.com
> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
>

<HR>
This doesn’t answer what indra is exactly, if it’s
still any good after being stored for so long and what
potency is left in it. But like almost everything at
least some of the answers are on the internet and you
can find them using google 🙂

.:vector:.

Reprinted from:
http://www.ridgetelnet.com/~jenks/ibogaine/121299.html

Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:24:43 EST
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: indra ibo(beginning)

In a message dated 12/11/99 10:48:50 AM,
ibogalab@hotmail.com (Carl) wrote:

> I have been working with the Iboga alkaloids over
the last sixteen years

Carl,

What precipitated your work with ibogaine?  How did
you come to it?  Please
be only as open as you feel comfortable in being.

Thanks.

Howard

Well,Howard it is a very long story,I guess it started
with being born into a family where visionary plants
and drugs was part of the cultural heritage,and
literature in that field was
abundant.Huxley’s”Island”,Baudelaire’s”the artificial
paradises”de Ropp’s “drugs and the mind” etc. was my
childhood literature,my father was a book publisher
and translator and a journalist with a strong
revolutionary impact on contemporary society
throughout the 1960’s and my school years in the late
sixties were heavily laced with psychedelic drugs and
social protest,the Vietnam war being what it was and
youth culture being what it was…
I first came across the Iboga plant when I returned
from a soujourn with the medicine men of Tanzania
,Kenya and Uganda in the Kilimanjaro area (doing some
highly classified magic that was part of overthrowing
the Idi Amin dictatorship),finding dr Hofmann’s and dr
Schultes’ elegant volume “Plants of the Gods”.Then,as
I stated earlier,I was working with numerous medicinal
plants in a pharmaceutical house,and the Iboga plant
was one of them.At that time,we considered it to be a
rather wild and rough trip with a lot of undesirable
side effects,so I set out to “tame” this wild spirit
into something more manageable,as I intuitively felt
that here was something with a tremendous healing
potential.In the same time period Christiania Freetown
had a severe problem with hard drug abuse,criminal
biker gangs fighting over street level drug market
control,heavily armed maniacs, and a lot of police
brutality.The scene was disgusting,so the Psychedelic
Movement decided to make the entire arsenal of
visionary plants and drugs readily available at street
level,on the principle that on a truly free market
good drugs will drive out the bad,and the Iboga
extract was one of the materials employed in this
endeavour.It was a successful operation,and Chritiania
Freetown has remained a zone entirely free from hard
drugs like opiates,cocaine, speed etc.to this day, and
violence is rare,although there are some problems with
alcohol and tourism…
To acheive consensus on “no hard drugs” in a community
is no easy thing and our model may not be universally
applicable,but the principles involved could indeed be
applied worldwide in a more enlightened future.To some
extent there are hopeful signs that visionary plants
and drugs are becoming an accepted part of everyday
reality in the western “civilization”,and that
long-lost profession of being a psychedelic guide will
be back in business, as was the case in the 1950’s and
early60’s,with a new role to play in using the Iboga
alkaloids in therapy and counseling.In this spirit,I
will do what I can,as much as I can, as fast as I
can…

Cordially,Carl

On Mon, 08 April 2002, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com wrote

> Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is
less dangerous
> than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine.
For people
> who need codeine, why not prescribe really small
amounts of
> heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no
sense and
> doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics
to pre-meds; it
> was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my
first student
> becoming a license physician.)
>
> Francis
>
>
> On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM,
synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:
> >
> > > Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it
answered my question.
> > >What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and
if they broke it down
> > >from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that
instead of turning it
> > >into HCL? Is this some company making it right
now or what. I’m lost. What
> > >I mean is what is the reason, why make this when
you can get HCL from it
> > >and what am I buying if I buy indra?
> >
> > Without giving you a direct response… why does
opium exist and morphine
> > exist when the manufacturer could go on to make
heroin? I think indra is the
> > equivalent of a trade name.  Indra can be reached
at
> > <http://www.indra.dk/ukversion/ukindex.htm>.  You
might ask them to explain
> > themselves.
> >
> > Howard
> >

<pre>
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From: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: Re: Nature’s own antidote to cocaine
Date: April 16, 2002 at 11:11:47 PM EDT
To: “ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “HSLotsof@aol.com” <HSLotsof@aol.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

——-Original Message——-

From: Academic and Scholarly Discussion of Addiction Related Topics.
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:09:38 PM
To: ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU
Subject: Re: Nature’s own antidote to cocaine

— Les Smith <leesmithjr@PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
> D.C., J.C., and Others:
>
> I am curious as to your opinions on Ibogaine
> treatment for chronic addiction

Quick Response (I had to leave ALL of my Ibo lit. in
my old computer and have not had a chance yet to get
back into such files with my new computer):

I’ve been impressed with what I’ve read, specifically
about the blend of Ibo + its metabolite (neither seems
as effective solo). The personal reports I’ve seen re
treated patients is typical, however: The DESIRE to
stay clean is paramount. With Ibo, as well as all
anti-addiction drugs, patients tend to believe that if
they “take the pill”, they can sit back and relax
while the pill does all the work. Instant sobriety,
as it were. Even with Ibo, the patient has to be
willing to do some work. Unfortunately, it hasn’t
been in use long enough to see what long-term effects
are on a large enough sample.

When used under rigid supervision, it appears that
Ibogaine + genuinely attenuates craving/withdrawal
symptoms for several weeks. But, if a doper thinks
it’ll take the edge off until they can get better
control of their usage, it can kill them. Therefore,
the patient has to want to stay sober *more* than they
want to get f**ked up.

IMO, Ibogaine + is a very good anti-addiction
alternative, but it is NOT for amateurs to do at
home…

— JC

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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Cigarette Addiction drives you crazy
Date: April 16, 2002 at 11:49:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: chrischmoo@yahoo.co.uk, biuro_69@csk.pl, Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>, “tony conte” <contetony@hotmail.com>, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>, “Gregory Lake” <lakeg@hotmail.com>, actupny@panix.com, “Allan clear” <clear@harmreduction.org>, GroveDS@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Return-path: <NYAPRS@aol.com>
From: NYAPRS@aol.com
Full-name: NYAPRS
Message-ID: <124.f05fd11.29e82a0d@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:16:13 EDT
Subject: Study: Smoking Potential Cause, Not Just Effect, of Mental
Health Problems
To: NYAPRS@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=”US-ASCII”
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

Cigarettes ‘can cause mental ills’
by Mark Henderson   The Times   April 11, 2002

SMOKING may be a major cause of mental illness as well as lung cancer and
heart disease, research has found.

Evidence in the US suggests that tobacco can contribute to panic attacks,
anxiety problems and schizophrenia. While it has long been known that
mentally ill people, such as those suffering from schizophrenia, are more
likely to smoke, this has usually been thought to be a consequence rather
than a cause of their condition.

Jeffrey Johnson, of New York Psychiatric Institute, found that people who
smoke a packet of cigarettes a day at the age of 16 are 16 times more likely
to develop panic disorders, seven times more likely to become agoraphobic and
five times more likely to develop generalised anxiety disorder than
non-smoking peers.

Source:   http://www.thetimes.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-263547,00.html

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mytragina, Kratom, etc
Date: April 16, 2002 at 4:23:45 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 12:23:50PM -0700], [Gamma] wrote:

| interesting…
|
| http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_info1.shtml

Whut they don’t mention is this stuff has a ph similar to battery acid.
Drink 50-80cc’s of it, and mahn do you need 20 tums.

z00m

Patrick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Mytragina, Kratom, etc
Date: April 16, 2002 at 3:23:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

interesting…

http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_info1.shtml

-gamma

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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Testing 1 . 1 . 1
Date: April 16, 2002 at 12:31:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 02:57:58AM -0700], [Carla Barnes] wrote:

| I know it was only for the weekend but I didn’t realize how much I’ve
| gotten used to reading all this and feeling like I’m starting to know
| some of you and I did go through withdrawl when it just vanished for 2
| days! Don’t do that again! 🙂

Not a problem, we’re STABLE and not FLYING out of anything for the next
year or so.  However, we are adding 24 hour a day customer support, being
handled by: Vic!  We’ll be providing all 5 cellphone numbers, and his home
number.  The best time to call is noonish; Vic loves receiving messages on
his answering machine!  The best kind to leave are these: “Hiiiiii,
Vicccc, We met at the Adult Video Convention!  It was suchhhhh goooooood
times.  You don’t write, you don’t call, by the way, I’m pregnant!”  His
wife really enjoys them.

– – – – – – – – –

Semi-serious part of message type thing:  To all the people who just
landed here.  Hullo.  Reading the logs many of you appear to be writing
very long and detailed messages to the listserver.  Nobody reads these —
until I just scanned them.  It isn’t a person, there isn’t anyone who can
reply to any of it.

If you have some particular question for me, I will do my best to answer
it.  It may take a while, and if you’re having a crisis I’m sorry — in
all honesty, no sarcasm.  There are a variety of people on this list, many
have done ibogaine, many have not, most have been drug dependent, and some
I s’pose are just curious.  But if it’s not extremely personal, you can
certainly ask it, and probably get at least a couple of people who have
been there — or are currently there, and trying to deal.

If anyone wants to get OFF the list, send mail to:

ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com

laters,

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 15, 2002 at 1:45:45 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

John Morgan doesn’t believe addiction exists??!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@cures-not-wars.org]
Sent: 13 April 2002 18:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply

Randy Kieser writes:

I could not read this message. Can you please resend?

I’ve read the ibogaine sites and materials. From these my general
understanding is that ibogaine is a medication which has hallucinogenic
properties and will detoxify you from heroin or longer acting narcotics
like methadone.

Does this include LAAM?

My secondary question is, what is preventing ibogaine from being tested in
clinical trials? It is schedule I, but MDMA appears to have made it past
that hurdle recently, at least in part because of the work of MAPS. What is
holding up ibogaine?

Thanks

Rob

MDMA is funded by people who want to legalize it for recreational
use. Unfortunately, there is no one who wants to use ibo
recreationally, and NIDA won’t because of the Joyce Nalepka’s of the
world, so it just isn’t happening.

A lot of legalizers are offended by ibogaine, like John Morgan or
Stanton Peele, because they don’t believe addictions exist.

Dana/cnw

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Testing 1 . 1 . 1
Date: April 16, 2002 at 5:57:58 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi and welcome back!
I wrote you this in email but I don’t know if you read your email or ever reply to it 😉 I do know you read this so I wanted to say thanks for I’m not sure what exactly. Being here! I’m not the best with words what I’m trying to say is addiction and yes I know you don’t even believe in it exactly but addiction or drug dependence or whatever you call it isn’t the easiest thing to deal with and having this here is really good. Not even so much as a source of information but knowing that there are a lot of people some of them who look like they have a lot of problems who are dealing with it somehow and knowing that this is here is like a great support system and I know you don’t do the 12 steps or believe in them either but it’s really nice when it feels like whenever I want to I can go here and there are a lot of very different people who I can talk to.
I know it was only for the weekend but I didn’t realize how much I’ve gotten used to reading all this and feeling like I’m starting to know some of you and I did go through withdrawl when it just vanished for 2 days! Don’t do that again! 🙂
I don’t understand any of it but Mindvox is very pretty and I do load it into the browser a lot like that other person made fun of. It’d be nice if you opened it, I want to see what’s inside 🙂
I have to ask, what is BSD? Those lines that rotate, when I loaded mindvox just now it said: lsd 25, bsd 4.4 What is bsd?
Thanks for being here!
Carla B
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
We’re Back…

I’m going to collapse now.

Buh-bye and laters,

Patrick

 

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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 13, 2002 at 9:34:45 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/13/02 10:15:48 AM, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

MDMA is funded by people who want to legalize it for recreational
use. Unfortunately, there is no one who wants to use ibo
recreationally, and NIDA won’t because of the Joyce Nalepka’s of the
world, so it just isn’t happening.

MAPS directed approximately $50,000.00 toward ibogaine clinical studies.

Howard

And then they stopped. Haven’t stopped pushing MDMA, though.

dana/cnw

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [vox] Final thotS
Date: April 15, 2002 at 6:47:26 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: vox@mindvox.com

You should be reading dese heah werds…  However, you will prolly not be
able to FIND US until your DNS refreshes (meaning anytime between RIGHT
NOW, and A WHILE LATER).

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Testing 1 . 1 . 1
Date: April 15, 2002 at 6:35:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We’re Back…

I’m going to collapse now.

Buh-bye and laters,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Very Last Final Update Type Thing
Date: April 13, 2002 at 4:39:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 04:39:47PM -0400], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

Howard!

Hey, it ain’t that bad, just the notice was SUDDEN “Okay, we’re closed
now!  Thanks for the bid’ness!”

We will apparently be back up within roughly 3 hours.

Even the slowest DNS which refreshes every 24hrs, should find us by Sunday
at roughly 3am.

z00m!

Gosh this is exciting!

Patrick

| Jesus! Patrick,
|
| Ibogaine list withdrawal!
|
| Howard
|
| In a message dated 4/13/02 4:31:59 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:
|
| >Okay, everything is FLYING in 8 different directions all at once, and
| >appears to be all-good.  We will have sumplace to relight over the weekend
| >prior to a final lurch mid-week.
| >
| >One thing to take note of is: DNS hasta propagate (our new IP has to reach
| >whatever nameservers you are using.  How fast it does this depends upon
| >your refresh rate).  Therefore, it may come back on in blips and spurts,
| >depending on where and how, you connect to the .NET (TM)
| >
| >To everybody writing my stacks of mail with, “We can host the sites!”
| >Thanks a bunch, no really, it’s appreciated, but it don’t work that way.
| >It’s not a site (or sites), it is a huge mountain of STUFF in the backend,
| >without which the front-end thatcha see will not run.  It isn’t a case
| >of,
| >”here’s the .tar.gz file.”  It’s more like, “here is a rack of machines
| >to
| >be plugged in.”  We aren’t “web hosted” we have servers which are ours,
| >which are plugged in sumplace.
| >
| >All’s — more or less — good.
| >
| >Patrick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Very Last Final Update Type Thing
Date: April 13, 2002 at 4:39:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jesus! Patrick,

Ibogaine list withdrawal!

Howard

In a message dated 4/13/02 4:31:59 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:

Okay, everything is FLYING in 8 different directions all at once, and
appears to be all-good.  We will have sumplace to relight over the weekend
prior to a final lurch mid-week.

One thing to take note of is: DNS hasta propagate (our new IP has to reach
whatever nameservers you are using.  How fast it does this depends upon
your refresh rate).  Therefore, it may come back on in blips and spurts,
depending on where and how, you connect to the .NET (TM)

To everybody writing my stacks of mail with, “We can host the sites!”
Thanks a bunch, no really, it’s appreciated, but it don’t work that way.
It’s not a site (or sites), it is a huge mountain of STUFF in the backend,
without which the front-end thatcha see will not run.  It isn’t a case
of,
“here’s the .tar.gz file.”  It’s more like, “here is a rack of machines
to
be plugged in.”  We aren’t “web hosted” we have servers which are ours,
which are plugged in sumplace.

All’s — more or less — good.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Very Last Final Update Type Thing
Date: April 13, 2002 at 4:27:48 PM EDT
To: vox@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Okay, everything is FLYING in 8 different directions all at once, and
appears to be all-good.  We will have sumplace to relight over the weekend
prior to a final lurch mid-week.

One thing to take note of is: DNS hasta propagate (our new IP has to reach
whatever nameservers you are using.  How fast it does this depends upon
your refresh rate).  Therefore, it may come back on in blips and spurts,
depending on where and how, you connect to the .NET (TM)

To everybody writing my stacks of mail with, “We can host the sites!”
Thanks a bunch, no really, it’s appreciated, but it don’t work that way.
It’s not a site (or sites), it is a huge mountain of STUFF in the backend,
without which the front-end thatcha see will not run.  It isn’t a case of,
“here’s the .tar.gz file.”  It’s more like, “here is a rack of machines to
be plugged in.”  We aren’t “web hosted” we have servers which are ours,
which are plugged in sumplace.

All’s — more or less — good.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Hey
Date: April 13, 2002 at 3:49:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I cannot answer all this mail, no fucking way peoples.  I am typing as
fast as I can in like 6 windows:  We’re moving from Verio NJ to Verio NYC,
latest relight is WED.  We may be back in a few hours as we mirror this
shit to another server living elsewhere.

This was expected.  What was unexpected is 15 mins notice instead of
several days.

DON’T PANIC, ALL IS WELL! (moving towards the door, running).  STAY CALM!

=)

Patrick

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 13, 2002 at 12:41:31 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 19:15 13.4.2002, you wrote:
Randy Kieser writes:

I could not read this message. Can you please resend?

I’ve read the ibogaine sites and materials. From these my general
understanding is that ibogaine is a medication which has hallucinogenic
properties and will detoxify you from heroin or longer acting narcotics
like methadone.

Does this include LAAM?

My secondary question is, what is preventing ibogaine from being tested in
clinical trials? It is schedule I, but MDMA appears to have made it past
that hurdle recently, at least in part because of the work of MAPS. What is
holding up ibogaine?

Thanks

Rob

MDMA is funded by people who want to legalize it for recreational use. Unfortunately, there is no one who wants to use ibo recreationally, and NIDA won’t because of the Joyce Nalepka’s of the world, so it just isn’t happening.

A lot of legalizers are offended by ibogaine, like John Morgan or Stanton Peele, because they don’t believe addictions exist.

Dana/cnw

he he he …
Nalepka in my language means “sticker”

Marko

From: Jack Honeycutt <jhoneycutt@qwest.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] botany sources?
Date: April 13, 2002 at 12:00:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I am an amateur botanist. My interest is in the plant, T. iboga, not so much the drug.  I am interested in taxonomic and culture information.

My understanding is that the plant is illegal in the US (where I am located).  I would enjoy exchanging information with folks who grow this plant (perhaps in other countries where it is legal).

If anyone could refer me to a mailing list, web site, or other botany type folks that would be great.

Thanks in advance.

James Honeycutt

 

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 13, 2002 at 10:43:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/13/02 10:15:48 AM, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

MDMA is funded by people who want to legalize it for recreational
use. Unfortunately, there is no one who wants to use ibo
recreationally, and NIDA won’t because of the Joyce Nalepka’s of the
world, so it just isn’t happening.

MAPS directed approximately $50,000.00 toward ibogaine clinical studies.

Howard

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 13, 2002 at 1:15:17 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy Kieser writes:

I could not read this message. Can you please resend?

I’ve read the ibogaine sites and materials. From these my general
understanding is that ibogaine is a medication which has hallucinogenic
properties and will detoxify you from heroin or longer acting narcotics
like methadone.

Does this include LAAM?

My secondary question is, what is preventing ibogaine from being tested in
clinical trials? It is schedule I, but MDMA appears to have made it past
that hurdle recently, at least in part because of the work of MAPS. What is
holding up ibogaine?

Thanks

Rob

MDMA is funded by people who want to legalize it for recreational
use. Unfortunately, there is no one who wants to use ibo
recreationally, and NIDA won’t because of the Joyce Nalepka’s of the
world, so it just isn’t happening.

A lot of legalizers are offended by ibogaine, like John Morgan or
Stanton Peele, because they don’t believe addictions exist.

Dana/cnw

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 12, 2002 at 9:20:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/12/02 9:05:24 PM, robertbosch@softhome.net writes:

I’ve read the ibogaine sites and materials. From these my general
understanding is that ibogaine is a medication which has hallucinogenic
properties and will detoxify you from heroin or longer acting narcotics
like methadone.

Does this include LAAM?

My secondary question is, what is preventing ibogaine from being tested
in clinical trials? It is schedule I, but MDMA appears to have made it past
that hurdle recently, at least in part because of the work of MAPS. What
is holding up ibogaine?

I don’t believe that anyone on LAAM has been treated so it is an unknown.
What is preventing ibogaine from being tested in clinical trials is money.
Lots of it.  The FDA did approve a clinical study for ibogaine but, it was
stipulated to be stopped for a lack of money.

Howard

From: robertbosch@softhome.net
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 12, 2002 at 9:05:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy Kieser writes:

I could not read this message. Can you please resend?

I’ve read the ibogaine sites and materials. From these my general
understanding is that ibogaine is a medication which has hallucinogenic
properties and will detoxify you from heroin or longer acting narcotics
like methadone.

Does this include LAAM?

My secondary question is, what is preventing ibogaine from being tested in
clinical trials? It is schedule I, but MDMA appears to have made it past
that hurdle recently, at least in part because of the work of MAPS. What is
holding up ibogaine?

Thanks

Rob

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Addiction Treatment
Date: April 12, 2002 at 5:06:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/12/02 4:36:05 PM, kdawsonais@yahoo.com writes:

Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

Hi Kerry,

Just figuring out your credentials I found a great page,

http://www.counselingseattle.com/initials.htm  (Dictionary of Initials
Acronyms and Abbreviations).

Howard

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Addiction Treatment
Date: April 12, 2002 at 4:35:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t have that much to say except you are some of the smartest and weirdest people I have ever encountered.
I’m not sure how to get a handle on all this yet or who I would recommend ibogaine treatment for. The fact that some of you are clean from heroin addiction amazes me.
I started reading this list because of the articles in Heroin Times. I am learning a lot and discovering I don’t know as much about addiction as I may have thought I did.
That was all and thanks!
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] great idea my second try
Date: April 12, 2002 at 2:52:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:12:02PM -0700], [Pinky White] wrote:

| I have returned with more insight because you have not heeded my last message.

Look dude, pick a response:

[> Nothing, at all, ever, is my fault.  I suffer from the Mysterious
Disease of Addiction and cannot be held accountable for any of my actions.

[> Gosh, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.  Why *are* we wasting our time with
this.  Fuck it, let’s dump the whole site and start selling porno.  Woo
hoo!

[> I am fully cogent and aware that you, Dennis and 3E, *must* post
extremely obnoxious and embarassing missives ’bout all your ENEMIES, and
it’s no good to do that unless it’s on a “live” forum being indexed out,
so that the next time any of these people are searching for themselves
under google, they may FIND IT, and read, while steam comes out of their
ears… — It’ll happen Any Minute Now.  Far be it from me to deprive you
of True Happiness.

[> Just because I never reply to my mail is No Reason to splatter stupid
shit all over the ibogaine list.  Get out.  Stop posting drivel.  Go get a
real problem, use a lot of drugs, then come back.

[> Ouch, that hurt.  Some of that splattered all over the place, but some
was a direct hit.  Go directly to The First Option.

Patrick / Brilliant Weirdos on Drugs

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 12, 2002 at 1:31:19 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Preston

Of course, u r totally right about us having the motivation to change first
– true 4 all, (or most) things, no?
The big difference with Iboga is the chemical composition that makes it
possible not to have to undergo unbearable withdrawal syndromes, if any at
all..

Also, I do remember for MONTHS after, feeling terribly serene and lamb-like;
sorta SF Hippy chick with big bootiful flower hanging out of my mouth – just
trying to give u a pic of what I find hard 2 describe in words.. u’ll c,
when/if u do try it.

Love

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 10 April 2002 23:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

Not significantly different.  (Although many people would disagree with
me.)  EXCEPT … speshul-K — while subjectively having its own
anti-addictive qualities — ain’t gonna be un-springing you, and making
much of a dent in your habit.  “dood mahn, wow, cool, I talked to g0d, all
creation was revealed to me, I went to heaven, hell, studio ’54 and
woodstock, uhmmm…  ‘scuse me, gotta go cop, I seem to be in withdrawal.”

Many hallucinogens/entheogens/psychedelics will take you on similar
journeys.  The one specific thing that appears to be absolutely unique to
ibogaine, is that skeleton key effect which unloX all LoX, unsprings you
and makes your opiate/opioid dependence fade out.<

Thanks Patrick.
I was actually asking from a slightly more personal viewpoint, rather
than relying on anything ala Lyttle, (I think that was the name mentioned by
Nick, but I seem to have deleted that message somehow), and I must say, you
make a good point Patrick, in that you pretty much quoted me during my own
major out-of-body/time experience with K. It was very special and something
I won’t ever forget entirely, but it did NOTHING to stop my banging, hell I
used the same rig to boot cocaine, dope and k, on the same bed on the same
night.
So this brings back the question of how it makes that dependence fade
out.
Are you really so confidant of the powers of ibogaine that you’d
advocate everyone taking it? I would think that not an entirely good idea.
Not to say banning it is a good idea, but on the obverse, mandating it for
everyone?
Is it the aftercare, (in whatever its form), or the ibogaine that keep a
person from going back to using? Magical as it might be, I continue to
question anything having the power to change a person without the desire for
change already being there, which doesn’t necessarily denigrate ibogaine as
it may, (or obviously does for some) allow a person seeking that way to
achieve change that will only work for them when nothing else will.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

On [Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:58:20PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| >Another issue is talking to the
| | dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| | visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported.
And
| | the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what
about
| | this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues
of
| | neurology and brain science.<
|
| So, how is this different than say, mainlining Ketamine? Other than for
| length of trip?
| Peace,
| Preston

Well, gah, I have like an entire chapter’s worth of material ’bout that
(the headspace properties of various hallucinogens, natural vs. synthetic,
LSD vs. ketamine vs. ibogaine vs…), but the compressed, highly short,
abridged if ya will; answer:

Not significantly different.  (Although many people would disagree with
me.)  EXCEPT … speshul-K — while subjectively having its own
anti-addictive qualities — ain’t gonna be un-springing you, and making
much of a dent in your habit.  “dood mahn, wow, cool, I talked to g0d, all
creation was revealed to me, I went to heaven, hell, studio ’54 and
woodstock, uhmmm…  ‘scuse me, gotta go cop, I seem to be in withdrawal.”

Many hallucinogens/entheogens/psychedelics will take you on similar
journeys.  The one specific thing that appears to be absolutely unique to
ibogaine, is that skeleton key effect which unloX all LoX, unsprings you
and makes your opiate/opioid dependence fade out.

There isn’t anything else which does this.  (That I know about anyway.)

Patrick

From: Randy Kieser <RKIESER@metastar.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox -Reply
Date: April 12, 2002 at 12:30:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] simplified extraction process published
Date: April 12, 2002 at 11:22:52 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Chris Jenk’s extraction process for ibogaine was cited on medline.

Howard

Nat Prod Lett 2002 Feb;16(1):71-6

Extraction studies of Tabernanthe iboga and Voacanga africana.

Jenks CW.

cwj@earthling.net

The root bark of Tabernanthe iboga contains ibogaine as its predominant
alkaloid and has been an important source of it. Ibogaine is used
experimentally to interrupt drug addiction and allow therapeutic
intervention, but is currently unaffordable to doctors in less economically
developed countries. To meet this need, an extraction of alkaloids from T.
iboga root bark was optimized and simplified to use only diluted vinegar and
ammonia, and was successfully applied to related alkaloids from Voacanga
africana bark also. The alkaloids were converted to their hydrochlorides and
purified, and the minor alkaloids were recovered.

From: dross <dross@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] great idea my second try
Date: April 12, 2002 at 2:29:15 AM EDT
To: Pinky White <uselessacount23@yahoo.com>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Did anybody mention to you that the MindVox >store< is open?

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/Store/

Cordially yours,

dross

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Pinky White wrote:

I have returned with more insight because you have not heeded my last message.

Patrick. Very profound. You are cooler then Morrison, brilliant, you’re all that.

But you proved that 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

Morisson was 27 when he died. You’re 33 aren’t you?

Here is more advice for you. That thing you have, what’s it called MindVox? Why don’t you

O P E N  T H E  F U C K I N G  T H I N G

You people are all so dysfunctional it never ceases to amaze me. It’s great that you’re back from the dead and seem to have at least most of your brain cells intact even if your sanity is gone. But.  OPEN MINDVOX.

What ibogaine list? You’re running some weird private club in cyberspace for the junkie intelligencia. I’ll give you that it’s one of the more interesting things I’ve ever read online but you can’t have more then a few hundred people reading this thing.

It’s interesting. Wow. Why don’t you stop writing all these messages, put all of that into your book which is only a decade late so far? You know what’s going to happen? Someone will finally kill you or you will OD and then Bruce will take your computers and throw them on your agent’s desk and there will be enough material for a 10 volume set. You will be rich, famous and dead.

You know there are conferences on slashdot, fark and metafilter devoted to discussing what Mindvox is and when it will open again. Your numbers are insane for a site  T H A T  I S  N O T  O P E N  What are you waiting for? I want to post messages and read thoughts I do not want to wait 2 minutes for 5 megabytes of flash and graphics to open each page. You do not need that. It gets in the way.

There. NOW OPEN IT.

Please.

While you’re at it did you know that jpegs can compress down? I know you know this so why don’t you do that. You have banners that are 80k large. They could be 18k.

I will be back again in another month. I know you still won’t be open in another month and I will have more advice then. I think it will be something like.  W H Y  D O N ‘ T  Y O U  O P E N  T H E  F U C K I N G  S Y S T E M ?  Someone will come along and dump money all over all of you and you’ll be rich again.

Rich, famous and alive is more fun then dead.

Tell that to Sartre.

Here’s my prediction. Within 6 months you will break the Top 100 sites on the entire net. Nielson Netratings will hold a week long conference trying to decide what this means and what Mindvox is. They will find no answers. Experts will be called in, the conference will last months, Mindvox will overtake Microsoft, it will be the greatest enigma that ever existed. Stonehende, the crop circles and Mindvox.

Meanwhile 5 million in venture capital will go to 10 losers who threw up crappy looking html but MANAGED TO  O P E N  T H E I R  F U C K I N G  S I T E S.

In 2004 Patrick will reply to a letter I wrote him in 1992.

In 2005 MindVox will be the #1 site on the entire internet.  It will STILL NOT BE OPEN. Nobody will ever understand it, but this won’t stop them from hitting load on their browser. Books will be written attempting to understand what it all means. The US will be nuked and everything will be gone.

Patrick will be vaporised on paragraph 50 of his response to a 300 paragraph long message from someone else in his new gang which has replaced the Legion of Doom: Brilliant Weirdos on Drugs. The ibogaine list will have grown to a 2,000 volume set by then containing the greatest thoughts mankind has ever seen. It will be read by 1,000 people because nobody else ever figured out how to subscribe to an old style email list and Mindvox never managed to open their browser interface. None of it will ever be published because nobody was functional enough to do that.

The End

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: Pinky White <uselessacount23@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] great idea my second try
Date: April 12, 2002 at 12:12:02 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have returned with more insight because you have not heeded my last message.

Patrick. Very profound. You are cooler then Morrison, brilliant, you’re all that. 

But you proved that 10 years ago, 15 years ago. 

Morisson was 27 when he died. You’re 33 aren’t you?

Here is more advice for you. That thing you have, what’s it called MindVox? Why don’t you

O P E N  T H E  F U C K I N G  T H I N G 

You people are all so dysfunctional it never ceases to amaze me. It’s great that you’re back from the dead and seem to have at least most of your brain cells intact even if your sanity is gone. But.  OPEN MINDVOX.

What ibogaine list? You’re running some weird private club in cyberspace for the junkie intelligencia. I’ll give you that it’s one of the more interesting things I’ve ever read online but you can’t have more then a few hundred people reading this thing.

It’s interesting. Wow. Why don’t you stop writing all these messages, put all of that into your book which is only a decade late so far? You know what’s going to happen? Someone will finally kill you or you will OD and then Bruce will take your computers and throw them on your agent’s desk and there will be enough material for a 10 volume set. You will be rich, famous and dead.

You know there are conferences on slashdot, fark and metafilter devoted to discussing what Mindvox is and when it will open again. Your numbers are insane for a site  T H A T  I S  N O T  O P E N  What are you waiting for? I want to post messages and read thoughts I do not want to wait 2 minutes for 5 megabytes of flash and graphics to open each page. You do not need that. It gets in the way. 

There. NOW OPEN IT.

Please.
While you’re at it did you know that jpegs can compress down? I know you know this so why don’t you do that. You have banners that are 80k large. They could be 18k.
I will be back again in another month. I know you still won’t be open in another month and I will have more advice then. I think it will be something like.  W H Y  D O N ‘ T  Y O U  O P E N  T H E  F U C K I N G  S Y S T E M ?  Someone will come along and dump money all over all of you and you’ll be rich again.

Rich, famous and alive is more fun then dead.

Tell that to Sartre.

Here’s my prediction. Within 6 months you will break the Top 100 sites on the entire net. Nielson Netratings will hold a week long conference trying to decide what this means and what Mindvox is. They will find no answers. Experts will be called in, the conference will last months, Mindvox will overtake Microsoft, it will be the greatest enigma that ever existed. Stonehende, the crop circles and Mindvox.

Meanwhile 5 million in venture capital will go to 10 losers who threw up crappy looking html but MANAGED TO  O P E N  T H E I R  F U C K I N G  S I T E S.

In 2004 Patrick will reply to a letter I wrote him in 1992.

In 2005 MindVox will be the #1 site on the entire internet.  It will STILL NOT BE OPEN. Nobody will ever understand it, but this won’t stop them from hitting load on their browser. Books will be written attempting to understand what it all means. The US will be nuked and everything will be gone.

Patrick will be vaporised on paragraph 50 of his response to a 300 paragraph long message from someone else in his new gang which has replaced the Legion of Doom: Brilliant Weirdos on Drugs. The ibogaine list will have grown to a 2,000 volume set by then containing the greatest thoughts mankind has ever seen. It will be read by 1,000 people because nobody else ever figured out how to subscribe to an old style email list and Mindvox never managed to open their browser interface. None of it will ever be published because nobody was functional enough to do that.

The End
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] sara arrested?
Date: April 11, 2002 at 8:27:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana received an incomplete communication indicating that Sara has been
arrested.  The charges are not known and Sara’s telephone appears to be out.

Does anyone have the ability to contact her or determine what the situation
may be.

Is anyone from the list in The Netherlands?

Howard

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 11, 2002 at 8:07:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:07:48PM -0700], [Bill Ross] wrote:

|   “I had never come across such an asocial monster before.”
|
|                                 A schoolmate of Carl Jung

LOOK, being a sociopath doesn’t make you a bad person.  And if one more
fucking shrink sez that ’bout me, I’m gonna go burn down his house, just
like I did to all the others.

|   lament the absence of strong leaders.” [1932] “Since this sentence
|   was written, Germany too has found its Fuhrer.” [1934]
|
|   “As Hitler said recently, the leader must be able to be alone and
|   must have the courage to go his own way.” [1933]
|
|   “…Hitler is a medicine man, a form of spiritual vessel, a demi-
|   deity or, even better, a myth.” [1939]

Well, Hitler sure wuz an archtype, and did accomplish a whole lot.   In
his next lives, that’ll TEACH THEM to try and keep HIM out of art school.

|                         Quotations from Richard Wolin, “Prometheus Unhinged,”
|                         a review of _The Aryan Christ: The Secret Life of
|                         Carl Jung_ by Richard Noll.

“I don’t believe in Goldman, his type like a curse, instant karma’s gonna
get him, if I don’t get him first.”  –Jesus Christ (woops, I meant Bono!)

Patrick

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 11, 2002 at 8:07:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s all the same rat in a cage trip.  And I mean, I don’t
think there is anything WRONG with it, it just ain’t my trip …
it’s the “officially approved” method of filling that black hole
inside, with SOMETHING in the hopes that it’ll work, and get you
through life.

Probably the first guy who specifically pointed this out with regards to
drug dependence was Jung, who was a pretty smart dude, and I like most
of what he had to say.

As a onetime admirer of Jung who hasn’t been able to focus on
his writing for a while, it was interesting to come across the
following (not to contradict any of the above). Surprising to
find that he had a hankering for a cagemaster:

“I had never come across such an asocial monster before.”

A schoolmate of Carl Jung

“The huzzahs of the Italian nation go forth to the personality
of the Duce [dictator Mussolini], and the dirges of other nations
lament the absence of strong leaders.” [1932] “Since this sentence
was written, Germany too has found its Fuhrer.” [1934]

“As Hitler said recently, the leader must be able to be alone and
must have the courage to go his own way.” [1933]

“…Hitler is a medicine man, a form of spiritual vessel, a demi-
deity or, even better, a myth.” [1939]

Carl Jung

Quotations from Richard Wolin, “Prometheus Unhinged,”
a review of _The Aryan Christ: The Secret Life of
Carl Jung_ by Richard Noll.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 11, 2002 at 7:45:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:15:06PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:
| >I doubt anyone would advocate that.<
|
| I realize the post may have been in jest, but as my companion V pointed out
| synchronistically enough just moments ago, “there’s truth in jest,” and
| Patrick did suggest recently dumping it (ibogaine) into the water supply.
| Granted, some people rely on bottled water nowadays, but I bet not all of
| us. To suggest such action would imply some pretty heavy faith in ibogaine.

Hey, your companion V is a wise person =)

And yeah, within jest there’s truth — although, dumping ibogaine into the
water supply would be just a lil’ different than doing so with LSD, which
has no taste or odor…  Perhaps these ISSUES n things could be overcome
if one were truly inspired, but that’s not exactly at the heart of it all.

I think what Francis said is pretty much true, to paraphrase, “drugs have
never brought me any closer to God, that’s what I use to escape,” this
wasn’t exactly what he said, but close … to which my reply was that
everything is “spiritual” because really, what isn’t…  And heroin and
cocaine and everything else, have their own lessons to teach you.  But,
again, this is much eaisier to see in retrospect, then when you’re right
in the middle of all this shit, because at that stage there is really
exactly one motivational force happening — at least for me — and that is
surviving today, and trying to make it into tomorrow.

All the concepts of right, wrong, positive, negative, self-awareness,
denial… are completely irrelevent in the face of REALITY, which is, I
need to get straight; after this, I’d like to get high.  And that, pretty
much, fills up 100% of my time and cognitive functioning.  There isn’t
too much gazing at the bigger picture, or pondering the fact that I should
not be forced to live and act this way, just because I do drugs…  Oh
well, shit happens, life’s a bitch, then you marry one, then you die,
s’cuse me, gotta go make mo’ money mo’ money mo’ money, ‘cuz dope ain’t
free, and no matter how much I have — dope or money — it’s never enough
anyway.

Not a very bright scenario.  But… taking away the drama and surreal, bad
b-movie quality vibe that surrounds this lifestyle due to that War on
Drugs thing, and transfer that same mindset, mode of living/existing to
the way MANY people get through their lives…  “I need to rise up in this
company, instead of hassling with distributors and dealers, I hassle with
middle management, I need to get a raise, get a bigger house, get a…”
whatever…  It’s all the same rat in a cage trip.  And I mean, I don’t
think there is anything WRONG with it, it just ain’t my trip … it’s the
“officially approved” method of filling that black hole inside, with
SOMETHING in the hopes that it’ll work, and get you through life.

Probably the first guy who specifically pointed this out with regards to
drug dependence was Jung, who was a pretty smart dude, and I like most of
what he had to say.

So, there’s this black hole inside…  and in MY experience anyway, no
matter whatcha try to fill it with, it doesn’t work, very well, or for too
long.

And “society” in general, western society in particular, appears to
largely be in denial of all this, and wants to condition you to respond to
the get more more more, and be happier happier happier, scene, which is
okay, but it’s never really worked out for me personally.

To sorta wind down my rant ‘cuz I gotta go inna minute, heroin is sort of
like Universal Duct Tape, and you can keep wrapping yourself in hundreds,
or thousands of layers of this stuff — much as X windows has done to
perfection!  (which is to say wrapped 10,000 layers of (non universal)
duct tape, around a broken 2×4 and declared it a window manager!)  But I
digress — the accumulating shit scenario is sort of a step down from
heroin, because I mean, if you’re gonna be a rat in a cage, then at least
I personally prefer the whole entire Attaching Soothing Molecules to
Receptors scenario, over buying a new Lexus…

However, entheogens/psychedelics/hallucinogens, have this neat effect of
strapping you to a rocket and shredding through all this conditioning.
You cannot sit and spin on psychedelics for 35 years — which you can
EASILY manage in therapy, provided you keep coughin up $185 – $275 an hour
for this privledge — and keep covering the same ground over, and over,
and over again…  You sooner or later — usually sooner if you are dosing
at a high enough range to get to that Over the Treetops level, where your
ego will get smashed with the cosmic sledgehammer — get a look behind
the magic curtain and cease to believe in all the bullshit that’s been
sold to you for so long…

And I don’t mean that in a NEGATIVE way, which I quite easily managed
without psychedelics all by myself, simply by virtue of having a mind and
filling it with things, and then contrasting what was being sold to me,
with what I saw all around me…  The difference is the entheogens have
the same stripping away the bullshit effect, but at the same time DO fill
it with something else…  They connect or reconnect you to whatever your
understanding of spirituality/God is, and allow you to experience and
actually live within that state — however briefly.  Usually, speaking for
myself, i fuck things up and throw it all outta aligment on a regular
basis…  <shrug>  Go figure, I have a lifetime of practice…

The black hole goes away and fills with pretty colors on that fucking
awesome ride upwards to Godhead…  Like rock the fuck out.

To shut up now…  if “all the bullshit being sold to you” is scotch tape
holding your psyche and soul together, and heroin is Universal Duct Tape,
which works a lot better; then entheogens amount to a Universal Toolkit to
actually fix what’s wrong in the first place.

Basically, yeah, I certainly believe that pretty much everyone would be
happier and better off, if they experienced at least pieces of the greater
whole, once in a while, in some context which is accepted by society,
instead of perpetually divorced from it, and relegated to the
aforementioned subcultures, where you basically have cast yourself adrift
from “mainstream society” simply by virtue of doing something which is
completely normal and human…  ‘Cuz to be human means to reach towards
being God…  Sartre sed’ that first I think, I thunk…  Although, he
also sed that hooking up with some particular chick you think is all-that,
has nothing to do with the chick, and everything to do with what you’re
projecting onto her and imagining her to mean to you; he then followed
this up by stating that she’s just a hole that needs to get filled…

In my experience Sartre changed his mind a lot — probably depending on
his swings through manic depresion, plus, also, his current blood levels
of testosterone, which can have a whole lot to do with things — and is
very hard to follow unless I’m extremely drunk.

Patrick

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 11, 2002 at 4:41:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick and someone else were offended by it seemingly.

Assuming the other person was me, since I corrected some
Bwiti facts – I’m always irritated by inaccuracies, particularly
when they seem a byproduct of lack of care about the subject.
(Next thing you know, people will be using that review to refute
the actual facts.) But it wasn’t completely wrong and was
amusingly naive – and a satire by an outsider does after all
show that one has arrived :-).

Bill Ross

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 11, 2002 at 1:22:50 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Carla Barnes
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

I’ve read this, it’s a little pompous maybe it reads like the author is more interested in being amusing then reporting the story. But I don’t know who this person is and if they are any kind of established name who has been writing about entheogens for years, then he’s no different from anyone else who does that and that’s ok I think.
My question was so far from the responses Patrick thought it was funny or liked it, Howard had nearly the same attitude, so did Gamma and then Nick and someone else were offended by it seemingly. Was he that far wrong and got so few facts right, or what is the reason for the unhapiness with what he wrote?
I haven’t read entheogen review before but I’ve read John Ott and in comparison to his writing that person was downright humble and listened to all sides 🙂
Carla B

Yeah, I think I was being pretty harsh, actually. I’m sure TL is a nice enough guy. Was back in London for the day from the countryside and just stressing mindlessly. It ain’t such a terrible review, and it does have a kind of endearing naivety to it. Plus it’s not like it’s in the NY Times or something. So, sorry Thomas Lyttle, on the off chance you get to read this collection of posts. all the best. Nick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ER article
Date: April 10, 2002 at 10:24:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/10/02 4:37:09 PM, flashbks@earthlink.net writes:

Please tell me in which issue of Entheogen Review the article on ibogaine
appears that is being discussed in email by Barnes and Sandberg.  I have
a
subscription but can’t find it–might be missing that issue.

Volume XI, Number 1, 2002, pages 37-38

Howard

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 9:18:41 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Would it be taking up too much bandwidth to simply say ditto to the first
three paragraphs, and I’m becoming more intrigued by the idea of ingesting
this stuff as each day goes by?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

On [Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:44:57PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

|     Are you really so confidant of the powers of ibogaine that you’d
| advocate everyone taking it? I would think that not an entirely good
idea.
| Not to say banning it is a good idea, but on the obverse, mandating it
for
| everyone?

Nah, no way.  I am sometimes a little too flippant and glib, perhaps even
facetious.  I believe in mandating nothing for nobody.  I fundamentally
think the people have the basic human right to be left alone, and should
be allowed to pursue their happiness and/or misery, however they see fit.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being drug dependent — unless
of course, you choose not to be; at which point you should be able to take
advantage of whatever modalities exist, and could provide you with help in
getting unsprung.

I think it’s basically disgusting that people who use drugs — whatever
drugs — are marginalized, and pushed into this endless series of
perpetually underground subcultures, because they are guilty of the crime
of altering their state of consciousness against the government’s wishes.

So, like, no…  I don’t think ANYBODY should “have” to take anything.  I
just feel that having undergone — literally — every single opiate/opioid
detox that presently exists, having a background of lifelong drug
addiction, and finally stepping off using ibogaine…  If your goal is
eventual termination of your dependence on opiates; taking ibogaine will
not in any way hinder or derail you, and even if it doesn’t work out the
first time, it can provide a push in whatever direction you wind up
travelling…  Hopefully a positive one.

So yeah: if you are sprung, and wanna get unsprung, I would strongly
suggest it.  But it is certainly not the ONLY solution.

|     Is it the aftercare, (in whatever its form), or the ibogaine that
keep a
| person from going back to using? Magical as it might be, I continue to
| question anything having the power to change a person without the desire
for
| change already being there, which doesn’t necessarily denigrate ibogaine
as
| it may, (or obviously does for some) allow a person seeking that way to
| achieve change that will only work for them when nothing else will.
| Peace,
| Preston

Again, on this point I am in absolute agreement with you.  I think that at
least the inceptions of the desire to change, need to be present for any
of this to work out.  I have not personally met anybody who just took
ibogaine and suddenly they spontaeneously dropped all their other drug
use, … just because…  Although I have HEARD of this happening, and
don’t necessarily doubt it…  I just haven’t witnessed it, and that’s
certainly not how it worked out for me.

z00m,

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 9:15:06 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I doubt anyone would advocate that.<

I realize the post may have been in jest, but as my companion V pointed out
synchronistically enough just moments ago, “there’s truth in jest,” and
Patrick did suggest recently dumping it (ibogaine) into the water supply.
Granted, some people rely on bottled water nowadays, but I bet not all of
us. To suggest such action would imply some pretty heavy faith in ibogaine.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

So this brings back the question of how it makes that dependence
fade out.

“Resetting habit-oriented neural pathways” is the simplest
description I’ve seen. The physical dependence apparently
disappears immediately rather than fades, while the psychological
one is apt to take a dent of some magnitude, but is equally
likely to fade back in and this is what the aftercare is for.

Are you really so confidant of the powers of ibogaine that you’d
advocate everyone taking it? I would think that not an entirely good
idea.  Not to say banning it is a good idea, but on the obverse,
mandating it for everyone?

I doubt anyone would advocate that.

Is it the aftercare, (in whatever its form), or the ibogaine that keep a
person from going back to using? Magical as it might be, I continue to
question anything having the power to change a person without the
desire for change already being there,

The theme of the ibogaine-for-addiction folks has been exactly
this for some time – it interrupts the craving, eliminates
withdrawal. And may lead to useful insights that could trigger
the desire to change and thus appear to give a magical recovery,
but this is relatively rare.

Bill Ross

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 7:12:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:44:57PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

|     Are you really so confidant of the powers of ibogaine that you’d
| advocate everyone taking it? I would think that not an entirely good idea.
| Not to say banning it is a good idea, but on the obverse, mandating it for
| everyone?

Nah, no way.  I am sometimes a little too flippant and glib, perhaps even
facetious.  I believe in mandating nothing for nobody.  I fundamentally
think the people have the basic human right to be left alone, and should
be allowed to pursue their happiness and/or misery, however they see fit.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being drug dependent — unless
of course, you choose not to be; at which point you should be able to take
advantage of whatever modalities exist, and could provide you with help in
getting unsprung.

I think it’s basically disgusting that people who use drugs — whatever
drugs — are marginalized, and pushed into this endless series of
perpetually underground subcultures, because they are guilty of the crime
of altering their state of consciousness against the government’s wishes.

So, like, no…  I don’t think ANYBODY should “have” to take anything.  I
just feel that having undergone — literally — every single opiate/opioid
detox that presently exists, having a background of lifelong drug
addiction, and finally stepping off using ibogaine…  If your goal is
eventual termination of your dependence on opiates; taking ibogaine will
not in any way hinder or derail you, and even if it doesn’t work out the
first time, it can provide a push in whatever direction you wind up
travelling…  Hopefully a positive one.

So yeah: if you are sprung, and wanna get unsprung, I would strongly
suggest it.  But it is certainly not the ONLY solution.

|     Is it the aftercare, (in whatever its form), or the ibogaine that keep a
| person from going back to using? Magical as it might be, I continue to
| question anything having the power to change a person without the desire for
| change already being there, which doesn’t necessarily denigrate ibogaine as
| it may, (or obviously does for some) allow a person seeking that way to
| achieve change that will only work for them when nothing else will.
| Peace,
| Preston

Again, on this point I am in absolute agreement with you.  I think that at
least the inceptions of the desire to change, need to be present for any
of this to work out.  I have not personally met anybody who just took
ibogaine and suddenly they spontaeneously dropped all their other drug
use, … just because…  Although I have HEARD of this happening, and
don’t necessarily doubt it…  I just haven’t witnessed it, and that’s
certainly not how it worked out for me.

z00m,

Patrick

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 7:07:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So this brings back the question of how it makes that dependence
fade out.

“Resetting habit-oriented neural pathways” is the simplest
description I’ve seen. The physical dependence apparently
disappears immediately rather than fades, while the psychological
one is apt to take a dent of some magnitude, but is equally
likely to fade back in and this is what the aftercare is for.

Are you really so confidant of the powers of ibogaine that you’d
advocate everyone taking it? I would think that not an entirely good
idea.  Not to say banning it is a good idea, but on the obverse,
mandating it for everyone?

I doubt anyone would advocate that.

Is it the aftercare, (in whatever its form), or the ibogaine that keep a
person from going back to using? Magical as it might be, I continue to
question anything having the power to change a person without the
desire for change already being there,

The theme of the ibogaine-for-addiction folks has been exactly
this for some time – it interrupts the craving, eliminates
withdrawal. And may lead to useful insights that could trigger
the desire to change and thus appear to give a magical recovery,
but this is relatively rare.

Bill Ross

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Sorry!
Date: April 10, 2002 at 6:57:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:37:23PM -0700], [Carla Barnes] wrote:

| I’m very sorry! I don’t know what I set in my email to make it send so
| many times.
|
| Sorry!

It’s not a problem.  If I ever lose my 8 other copies of this
classic document, I will now always have a ninth — presuming I have not
thrown them all into the same mailbox as I probably have.

Never let it be said we don’t blatantly rip copyrighted material and
retransmit it all over the whole entire planet — and into outer space
too.

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 6:44:57 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Not significantly different.  (Although many people would disagree with
me.)  EXCEPT … speshul-K — while subjectively having its own
anti-addictive qualities — ain’t gonna be un-springing you, and making
much of a dent in your habit.  “dood mahn, wow, cool, I talked to g0d, all
creation was revealed to me, I went to heaven, hell, studio ’54 and
woodstock, uhmmm…  ‘scuse me, gotta go cop, I seem to be in withdrawal.”

Many hallucinogens/entheogens/psychedelics will take you on similar
journeys.  The one specific thing that appears to be absolutely unique to
ibogaine, is that skeleton key effect which unloX all LoX, unsprings you
and makes your opiate/opioid dependence fade out.<

Thanks Patrick.
I was actually asking from a slightly more personal viewpoint, rather
than relying on anything ala Lyttle, (I think that was the name mentioned by
Nick, but I seem to have deleted that message somehow), and I must say, you
make a good point Patrick, in that you pretty much quoted me during my own
major out-of-body/time experience with K. It was very special and something
I won’t ever forget entirely, but it did NOTHING to stop my banging, hell I
used the same rig to boot cocaine, dope and k, on the same bed on the same
night.
So this brings back the question of how it makes that dependence fade
out.
Are you really so confidant of the powers of ibogaine that you’d
advocate everyone taking it? I would think that not an entirely good idea.
Not to say banning it is a good idea, but on the obverse, mandating it for
everyone?
Is it the aftercare, (in whatever its form), or the ibogaine that keep a
person from going back to using? Magical as it might be, I continue to
question anything having the power to change a person without the desire for
change already being there, which doesn’t necessarily denigrate ibogaine as
it may, (or obviously does for some) allow a person seeking that way to
achieve change that will only work for them when nothing else will.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

On [Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:58:20PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| >Another issue is talking to the
| | dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| | visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported.
And
| | the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what
about
| | this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues
of
| | neurology and brain science.<
|
| So, how is this different than say, mainlining Ketamine? Other than for
| length of trip?
| Peace,
| Preston

Well, gah, I have like an entire chapter’s worth of material ’bout that
(the headspace properties of various hallucinogens, natural vs. synthetic,
LSD vs. ketamine vs. ibogaine vs…), but the compressed, highly short,
abridged if ya will; answer:

Not significantly different.  (Although many people would disagree with
me.)  EXCEPT … speshul-K — while subjectively having its own
anti-addictive qualities — ain’t gonna be un-springing you, and making
much of a dent in your habit.  “dood mahn, wow, cool, I talked to g0d, all
creation was revealed to me, I went to heaven, hell, studio ’54 and
woodstock, uhmmm…  ‘scuse me, gotta go cop, I seem to be in withdrawal.”

Many hallucinogens/entheogens/psychedelics will take you on similar
journeys.  The one specific thing that appears to be absolutely unique to
ibogaine, is that skeleton key effect which unloX all LoX, unsprings you
and makes your opiate/opioid dependence fade out.

There isn’t anything else which does this.  (That I know about anyway.)

Patrick

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Sorry!
Date: April 10, 2002 at 6:37:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m very sorry! I don’t know what I set in my email to make it send so many times.
Sorry!
Carla B

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 6:33:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This was the article, it was posted to the list a day or two ago I think.
Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
Here’s a copy of the review from the latest Entheogen Review, on the
Proceedings from the Ibogaine Conference book. Many thanks to Howard for
sending me hard copy. Personally, I thought the review was OK, but rather
overly sensationalist, with some weak styling, and containing several
factual innaccuracies, especially in its description of the Indra iboga
extract

all the best

Nick

………………………………………………………………….
………………………

from The Entheogen Review, Vol XI, Number 1, Vernal Equinox

Ibogaine: Proceedings of the First International Conference, by KENNETH R.
ALPER and STANLEY D. GLICK (Eds) 2001. (ACADEMIC PRESS, 525 B Street, Suite
1900, San Diego, CA 92101-4495, www.academicpress.com), ISBN 0-12053-206-9
(6″ x 9″ softbound $79.95, 333 pp., alkaloid index and general index.

I’ve had a long-standing interest in Tabernanthe iboga and ibogaine studies
ever since I published the GOUTAREL, GOLLNOFER, and SILLANS summary,
“Pharmacodynamics and Therapeutic Applications of Iboga and Ibogaine,” in my
Psychedelic Monographs and Essays Vol. 6. This article collected everything
known in English in 1993 about ibogaine research. Dr GOUTAREL was the
scientist who originally helped isolate ibogaine alkaloids in the early
1950s. Soon after this article was published, several books appeared,
including The Ibogaine Project: Report on the Staten Island Project by PAUL
DE RIENZO and DANA BEAL (Autonomedia, 1997), and Iboga by AMON KNUT ML
(Maribor, 1994). And papers continue to appear in academic and medical
journals.

Along with this glut of publishing came many mystical and romantic notions
of ibogaine as an “addiction cure” (now called an “addiction interrupter”).
Ibogaine achieved – at least for a while – postmodern ‘soma’ status. Soap
opera camp – as publicized by the HOWARD LOTSOF/DEBORAH MASH “wars”
surrounding ibogaine patents – appeared as an aside. During this tug-of-war,
science continued onward. Research has been collected and serious science
has evolved regarding ibogaine. Ibogaine: The Proceedings celebrates 40
years of investigations and evolving therapy regimes.

As with soma, ibogaine is a subject which deserves the higher ground, and
this new book is written by the best minds available, with funding and
continued research as its goal. IBOGAINE: THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
was held in New York City in 1999, and this book collects the proceedings,
plus more. Adding to pharmaceutical and toxicology research is new
information regarding therapies that use ibogaine, including traditional
Bwiti therapies, various encounter and shock therapies, dream therapies –
even amateur therapies using ibogaine in uncontrolled doses, based on
self-help models.

What are the real issues here? One real issue is hard-core heroin and
cocaine addiction and the hard-core shamanic cure – a dramatic cure that
imparts psychic powers on the survivor. Another issue is talking to the
dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported. And
the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what about
this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
neurology and brain science.

Many of the chapters and papers in Ibogaine: The Proceedings are highly
technical, and deal with aspects of ibogaine’s pharmacological and
toxicological actions. Such include neurotransmitter activities, effects on
neuropeptides, metabolism, excretion, and locomotor activity. Of interest to
me however were the psychological papers studying ibogaine’s effects on
learning, memory, and EEG. EMMANUEL NAIVE’S chapter “Changes in Gene
Expression and Signal Transduction Following Ibogaine Treatment” presents
the startling fact that ibogaine can rewrite gene expression, which leads
directly to voltage and electrical regulation through intracellular
communication. Such cell cross-talk is connected to learning and the way
information is gated or processed into memory – something that is claimed to
be observable in real time by some ibogaine trippers.

The chapter “Returning to the Path: The Use of Iboga[ine] in Equatorial
African Ritual Context and the Binding of Time, Space, and Social
Relationship” by JAMES and RENATE FERNANDEZ is also important. JAMES wrote
the seminal study – Bwiti: An Ethnography of the Religious Imagination in
Africa (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PRESS, 1982). The Bwiti are the celebrated
African tribe that originally used the iboga plant in its occult ceremonies.
A cult within the Bwiti called the Fang is also mentioned. The Bwiti live
partly in this world, and partly in a mythical land contacted by iboga
initiates.

We also see reviews of LOTSOF’S NDA INTERNATIONAL AND ICASH (International
Coalition of Addiction Self-Help), a therapy based loosely on the work of
ALDOUS HUXLEY and DR TIMOTHY LEARY. DR DEBORAH MASH and her ibogaine clinics
in St Kitts in the Caribbean are described. Dr MASH is also famous at the
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI MEDICAL SCHOOL for performing a brain autopsy, seeking
clues to ibogaine’s inner workings.

ERIC TAUB’S ibogaine sessions are discussed. Here we see less therapy and
more shamanic ritual (similar to the ideals of the Bwiti). MYRON STOLAROFF
reports on west coast therapy scenes and regimens, and his book ‘The Secret
Chief’ is mentioned. From the Netherlands we hear about DASH/INTASH, THE
CENTER FOR ADDICTION RESEARCH AT ERASMUS UNIVERSITY and the work of NICO
ADRIAANS, a field researcher studying street addiction and therapeutic
communities. From Slovenia we hear about the work of MARKO RESINOVIC, who
founded the SLOVENIAN IBOGAINE FOUNDATION in 1995. Worth noting is the
pricing structure – $200.00 for a gram of ibogaine hydrochloride with
therapy, as opposed to several thousand dollars for the therapy of DR. MASH
or ERIC TAUB! Curious. The section on Denmark describes interesting scenes
alleged to have existed within CHRISTIANA, the anarchist “village” near
Copenhagen. A 44 kilogram supply of ibogaine hydrochloride connected to
CHRISTIANA was mentioned, circa 1981. This stash was code named “Indra” and
used to treat over 1000 advanced heroin junkies in CHRISTIANA village. We
hear of a gram of ibogaine hydrochloride going for $25 in CHRISTIANA….
Netherlands therapists worked with this same “Indra” supply for years,
pricing therapy at $600.00 to $1000.00. In the United Kingdom, thanks to
sales of The Ibogaine Story, and a video sponsored by the group CURES NOT
WARS and promoted by the GREEN political party, ibogaine therapy flourishes.
In Italy, GIORGIO SAMORINI’S work is mentioned, as are his forays into Bwiti
Initiations. In the Czech Republic, it costs $500 for treatment with
ibogaine. In France an actual ‘nganga’ – a Bwiti ritual guide – officiated
ibogaine therapy for $1000. (I published a photo of a Bwiti Nganga sorceror
in my PM&E journal, replete with loincloth and bone pointing, once upon a
time…)

In Africa, the home of the Bwiti and the iboga plant, we hear about DAN
LIEBERMAN, an ethnobotanist who was involved in arranging Bwiti ceremonies
in Gabon (before his death in 2000). This section of the book focusses on
medical and therapeutic subcultures – something of relevance to readers of
The Entheogen Review, because we are just that – a subculture.

Ibogaine: Proceedings also shows time lines of ibogaine-related discoveries,
and has a special index just for alkaloids titled “The Alkaloids, A
Cumulative Index of Titles, 1950 – 2001.” This includes references for
syntheses of the active compounds in ‘qat’, Ephedra, ergot, and even rare
amphibian spider-, and wasp-toxin alkaloids, as well as chemicals such as
piperidine and morphine. This special index is an interesting addition to
iboga alkaloid chemistry. A 10-page regular index rounds things off.

All in all, Ibogaine: Proceedings Of The First International Conference is a
solid addition to the literature. The book is a welcome return to ibogaine
science and resets ibogaine mythology with real world, modern practices –
both within the clinic and traditional Bwiti cults. This is a book that will
serve the ibogaine community and psychedelic researchers for years to come.
Unfortunately, the book is somewhat expensive, at about $80 soft-bound.
However, owing to the tremendous resources, networks, and histories pulled
together here, we have a winner worth the dough.

DR ALPER and DR GLICK, I toast you. The Bwiti thank you, the spirits of
iboga thank you, and patients thank you, Amen and peace – THOMAS LYTTLE

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: Flashback Books <flashbks@earthlink.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: ER article
Date: April 10, 2002 at 4:36:51 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please tell me in which issue of Entheogen Review the article on ibogaine
appears that is being discussed in email by Barnes and Sandberg.  I have a
subscription but can’t find it–might be missing that issue.

Thanks.

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 2:37:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve read this, it’s a little pompous maybe it reads like the author is more interested in being amusing then reporting the story. But I don’t know who this person is and if they are any kind of established name who has been writing about entheogens for years, then he’s no different from anyone else who does that and that’s ok I think.
My question was so far from the responses Patrick thought it was funny or liked it, Howard had nearly the same attitude, so did Gamma and then Nick and someone else were offended by it seemingly. Was he that far wrong and got so few facts right, or what is the reason for the unhapiness with what he wrote?
I haven’t read entheogen review before but I’ve read John Ott and in comparison to his writing that person was downright humble and listened to all sides 🙂
Carla B
Nick Sandberg <sandberg@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
> | >Another issue is talking to the
> | | dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
> | | visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported.
And
> | | the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what
about
> | | this?

All this stuff is astral stuff – angels, demons, heaven, hell. I AM the
Alpha and Omega, as a classic text on the subject commences, meaning in this
experience I AM beyond time, space and time being merely the dimensions that
facilitate the integration of repressed aspects of our being, a process
iboga naturally speeds up because its action is seated in the astral.

Iboga talks to the soul through dreams, and furthermore, initiates dreams
about itself in people who’ve only heard the word “i-bo-ga” or “ee-bo-ka”
without ever touching the stuff. (the word “iboga” is yod, beth, vav, gimel,
aleph in Chaldean or Hebrew, the mystical language of dreams, and has a
numerology [by gematria] of 22 = astral unity). The word is a syntatic
trigger which invokes dreams telling a person to use the drug – a study by
Fernandez found 40% of Bwiti initiates chose to start with iboga because a
dead relative appeared in a dream and told them to.

The land of the dead, the land of the ancestors, the world of dreams, the
astral realm, the seat of the emotions – it’s all the same. If one was to
analyse the REM fractals gathered by Carl Anderson in his animal ibogaine
studies, one would find high degrees of symmetry at higher dimensional
levels; the same if and when more time and effort is given to studying the
drug’s neurochemical effects – it’s principle seat of operation, the point
where it’s effects are mediated, is in a layer of consciousness (dimension)
directly above our own – the astral, ascertainable, I imagine, by
investigating any apparently random data acquired from neuronal firing,
whatever. And it’s therefore quite possible to place iboga squarely and
without problem into the metaphysical terrain of Eastern of Western
mysticism, whether expounded by Ken Wilbur, Patanjali, William Tiller or
whoever, not from a strictly 20th C science perspective, but certainly from
a modern mind-body-psychological lookout. You don’t need to create a load of
weird sounding, mystifying nonsense, a la Lyttle. The guy’s just a spaced
out idiot who doesn’t want to look behind his own mask.

rant over!

Nick
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Mayor Bloomberg’s Pot Smoking is NORML
Date: April 10, 2002 at 10:49:43 AM EDT
To: <FreedomNewsNet@aol.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “CRRH” <restore@crrh.org>, “cia-drugs” <cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
Here’s an article on the press conference held yesterday, (Tuesday,
April 9) by NORML to announce their new ad campaign in NYC.

http://www.drugwar.com/pnormlnycad.shtm

Does anyone at all suppose Mayor Bloomberg ever faced a choice between
treatment or jail for his pot use?
Peace,
Preston

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 10, 2002 at 5:17:42 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@ibogaine.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

On [Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:58:20PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| >Another issue is talking to the
| | dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| | visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported.
And
| | the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what
about
| | this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues
of
| | neurology and brain science.<
|
| So, how is this different than say, mainlining Ketamine? Other than for
| length of trip?
| Peace,
| Preston

Well, gah, I have like an entire chapter’s worth of material ’bout that
(the headspace properties of various hallucinogens, natural vs. synthetic,
LSD vs. ketamine vs. ibogaine vs…), but the compressed, highly short,
abridged if ya will; answer:

Not significantly different.  (Although many people would disagree with
me.)  EXCEPT … speshul-K — while subjectively having its own
anti-addictive qualities — ain’t gonna be un-springing you, and making
much of a dent in your habit.  “dood mahn, wow, cool, I talked to g0d, all
creation was revealed to me, I went to heaven, hell, studio ’54 and
woodstock, uhmmm…  ‘scuse me, gotta go cop, I seem to be in withdrawal.”

Many hallucinogens/entheogens/psychedelics will take you on similar
journeys.  The one specific thing that appears to be absolutely unique to
ibogaine, is that skeleton key effect which unloX all LoX, unsprings you
and makes your opiate/opioid dependence fade out.

There isn’t anything else which does this.  (That I know about anyway.)

Patrick

The THING with iboga, that to me makes it SPECIAL, is that it doesn’t take
you too far away. Other tryptamines pull a person off into the whole
unitive/God/look-no-more-ego terrain, but iboga usually just holds a person
in the astral, the layer of dreams, where all our issues and trips reside.

Thomas Lyttle, who wrote the article, seems to fail to comprehend this
point, (and thus gets himself totally lost in a mish-mash of spaced out
mumblings), I assume because he’s had too much experience with those
tryptamines that don’t load the 3 position on the indole ring – lsd,
psilocin, dmt, etc – and therefore DO have the potential send you off into
inner space too far for the undeveloped ego to deal with.

| >Another issue is talking to the
| | dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| | visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported.
And
| | the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what
about
| | this?

All this stuff is astral stuff – angels, demons, heaven, hell. I AM the
Alpha and Omega, as a classic text on the subject commences, meaning in this
experience I AM beyond time, space and time being merely the dimensions that
facilitate the integration of repressed aspects of our being, a process
iboga naturally speeds up because its action is seated in the astral.

Iboga talks to the soul through dreams, and furthermore, initiates dreams
about itself in people who’ve only heard the word “i-bo-ga” or “ee-bo-ka”
without ever touching the stuff. (the word “iboga” is yod, beth, vav, gimel,
aleph in Chaldean or Hebrew, the mystical language of dreams, and has a
numerology [by gematria] of 22 = astral unity). The word is a syntatic
trigger which invokes dreams telling a person to use the drug – a study by
Fernandez found 40% of Bwiti initiates chose to start with iboga because a
dead relative appeared in a dream and told them to.

The land of the dead, the land of the ancestors, the world of dreams, the
astral realm, the seat of the emotions – it’s all the same. If one was to
analyse the REM fractals gathered by Carl Anderson in his animal ibogaine
studies, one would find high degrees of symmetry at higher dimensional
levels; the same if and when more time and effort is given to studying the
drug’s neurochemical effects – it’s principle seat of operation, the point
where it’s effects are mediated, is in a layer of consciousness (dimension)
directly above our own – the astral, ascertainable, I imagine, by
investigating any apparently random data acquired from neuronal firing,
whatever. And it’s therefore quite possible to place iboga squarely and
without problem into the metaphysical terrain of Eastern of Western
mysticism, whether expounded by Ken Wilbur, Patanjali, William Tiller or
whoever, not from a strictly 20th C science perspective, but certainly from
a modern mind-body-psychological lookout. You don’t need to create a load of
weird sounding, mystifying nonsense, a la Lyttle. The guy’s just a spaced
out idiot who doesn’t want to look behind his own mask.

rant over!

Nick

From: “MUTANEX Communications” <mutanex@aloha.net>
Subject: Strange Time Capsule ::: CIA Seeds
Date: April 10, 2002 at 3:43:39 AM EDT
To: “VaticanTV” <ctv@ctv.va>

U.S. group makes cheap plastic solar-energy cells
Cheap, plastic solar cells that can be painted onto just about any surface could provide power for a range of portable and even wearable electronic devices, scientists said Thursday.
FULL STORY

THE TV-VIOLENCE CONNECTION
A new study may prove that watching TV leads to violent behavior.
But some scholars are not convinced.
http://www.mediachannel.org/front.shtml#violence

A Very Strange Time Capsule
Josie Appleton, Spiked Online
Museums are gathering everything to do with 9/11 — bits of rubble, dust masks, and even aspirins sent to relief workers. What explains this unprecedented rush to collect?

….

Bizarro
previous date | next date | send to a friend | buy a print

Copyright ©2001 Dan Piraro
Published Tuesday 03/26/02

 

 

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TOP TEN MOST EMBARRASSING MOMENTS IN THE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN TEXTBOOK

From Daughters of the American Revolution propaganda to utility
company PR, Stay Free! looks at the pressures on U.S. textbook
publishers, historically:
http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/archives/18/topten.html

In-Q-Tel

The Washington Times recently reported on the progress of
In-Q-Tel (formerly In-Q-It) the CIA’s private venture capital
company.   Over the past two years In-Q-Tel has invested
about $60 million in startup companies.   As expected (by
X-PPAC) the focus was on data mining and web browser
technologies.    So far no one in the Washington
political press has found anything concerning about the
Central Intelligence Agency having seed money/insider
capital positions in emerging companies, and thus being
in a position to quietly influence the structure, intent
and security aspects of new commercial technology.

www.in-q-tel.com/index.htm

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Other Breaking News
World Environmental Court to Come! :::
http://www.kauainews.net/Fallout.eml

Belgian Lawyers Suing Ariel Sharon for War Crimes:::
http://www.kauainews.net/Terrorism.eml

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Well Journal –
Can a fungus out-muscle meat?

By David MacFarlane

America is getting its first taste of Quorn, a meat alternative made from a
fungus that uncannily mimics the physical and nutritional properties of the
real thing – but with virtually none of the drawbacks.

“In some ways, it’s going to be the next soy,” says nutritionist and author
Susan Mitchell, M.D. “It’s an attractive alternative to people who want to
eat less meat. And, yes, it tastes good.” Quorn is high in protein and
fiber, low in cholesterol and saturated fats, and high in mono-unsaturated
and polyunsaturated fats. According to Marlow Foods, which markets Quorn, a
typical serving has two-thirds the fat of a skinless chicken breast, the
protein of an egg and the same amount of fiber as a baked potato. Quorn has
been a hit in Europe since it was introduced 17 years ago. Marlow, a
division of AstraZeneca, says one in five English households eats the
products, powering sales of more than $150 million in 2001.

Will it play in the States?

Americans have had to wait until now to try Quorn, because it first had to
be approved by the Food and Drug Administration. FDA approval, which was
granted in December 2001, was required because Quorn is made from
mycoprotein, a fungus grown in large vats that is processed and flavored to
produce a variety of products. Marlow describes mycoprotein as “an
all-natural vegetable protein from the mushroom family,” but at least one
consumer advocate has taken issue with the description. “Quorn’s
mycoprotein has nothing to do with mushrooms,” says Mark Jacobson, the
executive director of Center for Science in the Public Interest, a
non-profit watchdog group. “Quorn is a fungus and should be labeled as
such.”

Mitchell says there is merit to Jacobson’s assertion, “All mushrooms
are funguses but not all funguses are mushrooms,” she says. The
nomenclature issue does not detract from the evidence to date that the
product is nutritious and safe, says Mitchell. “If it’s successful it
wouldn’t surprise me,” she says. But most people aren’t likely to try it,
she says, until “they hear from a friend — or a friend of a friend — that
this is something they should eat.” Marlow hopes to build $50 million in
sales by selling Quorn next to such familiar frozen meat-alternatives such
as Gardenburger and Boca Burger. By comparison, Americans spent more than
$2.7 billion on soy food in 2000, according to Soyatec.

The first line of Quorn products includes ready-to-eat chicken-style
nuggets, patties, and cutlets, plus a variety of entrees such as lasagna
and fettuccine Alfredo. Quorn also will be available in ingredient form as
frozen beef-style grounds and frozen chicken-style tenders. Additional
products are planned.

Ferment, spin and separate

Fusarium venenatum, the fungus that produces mycoprotein (literally “fungus
protein”), was discovered in the soil west of London in the 1960. European
pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca developed mycoprotein into a product, and
began selling it through Marlow Foods in 1985 in England. Quorn debuted in
Western Europe six years later.

The fungus that produces mycoprotein is grown in large
temperature-controlled towers, continuously fermented and fed a steady
stream of oxygen, nitrogen, glucose, minerals and vitamins. After
harvesting, it is treated to reduce its ribonucleic acid content to World
Health Organization recommended levels. It’s then placed in a centrifuge,
which extracts water from the mixture. The resulting mass is mixed with
binders, flavorings and other ingredients. Afterwards, it can be shaped and
sized into burgers, sausages and cutlets.

Like soy, Quorn is tasteless before it is flavored, which makes it an
enormously versatile ingredient in foods. Where it may surpass soy, say
those who have tried Quorn, is in its semblance to real meats. Quorn has a
fibrousness that makes the sensory experience of chewing a Quorn chicken
cutlet seem remarkably like the real thing.
¨÷¨÷¨÷¨M¨÷¨÷¨Ü¨÷¨÷¨T¨÷¨÷¨Ã¨÷¨÷¨N¨÷¨÷¨Ê¨÷¨÷¨X¨÷¨÷¨÷¨÷¨

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
— Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

“Power concedes nothing without a demand.
It never did and never will.”
Frederick Douglass

Wealth heaped on wealth,
nor truth nor safety buys,
The dangers gather
as the treasures rise.
Samuel Johnson

“When the people fear the government you have tyranny…
when the government fears the people you have liberty.”
–Thomas Jefferson

FutureWorks CrossRoads
http://www.geocities.com/futuremagick

SAVE Big Bucks on DVD’s, Music, Books:::

FutureWorks MediaBank
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From: “MUTANEX Communications” <mutanex@aloha.net>
Subject: We are All Palestinians ::: Courage to Refuse Campaign
Date: April 10, 2002 at 12:54:48 AM EDT
To: “GulfNews” <edit@gulf-news.co.ae>

Dear Friends,

Please send a fax to Secretary of State Colin Powell, urging
immediate Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian areas and support
for the Saudi Peace Plan.

You can take action here:
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/palestine/fax040302.html
A Recipe For Making Peace
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.09I.Making.Peace.htm
BRINGING NON-VIOLENCE TO THE WEST BANK
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12784
Hundreds of civilian “internationalists” are arriving in the West Bank to
act as human shields for the Palestinians under siege by the Israeli Army.

CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE IN PROTEST OF US FAILURE TO INTERVENE in the Middle East
Demos are being organized in D.C., NYC, and SF on Thursday, April 11 – More
details at http://www.tikkun.org or contact Michael Lerner
RabbiLerner@tikkun.org

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THE MADNESS OF ARIEL SHARON

The bloody campaign against the Palestinians is in keeping with the Israeli
Prime Minister’s violent history. But why is the White House participating
in his vendetta?

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12783

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Tuesday, April 9, 2002
Where is the world to see this?
Dear friends everywhere,
Today is day 11 of the re-occupation of Ramallah. We hear less shootings but from time to time we hear explosions of forced entry into houses and I keep hearing the same stories over and over again. Ask everyone to gather in a room, they start their ‘searching’. It is supposed to be a search for people, but in many cases they were ‘searching’ for something else, money, jewels, laptops, mobile phones… etc.

http://www.electronicintifada.org/diaries/index.html

Media compilation #60: Ethnically Cleansing Palestine? (04/01/2002)
http://www.cybernaute.com/earthconcert2000/Archives2002/MediaCompilation60.htm

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ISRAEL:

Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister:
rohm@pmo.gov.il or
webmaster@pmo.gov.il
Fax: +972 2 651 2631

Benjamin Ben Eliezer, Israeli Minister of Defense
Email: sgansar@mod.gov.il

Shimon Peres, Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs
Fax: +972-2-5303367
Email: sar@mfa.gov.il

Here is the phone number of the IDF Commander for the Ramallah area
(from the US):

011-972-2-9970461
Mobile: 011-972-54-240-303
Voice your protest to him personally.

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We Are All Palestinians

 

The so-called terrorists that Sharon alleged to be after suddenly grew to be become the entire population of the camps. By the end of the fifth day of the killing campaign, 50 Palestinian deaths and 450 wounded later, we were told, oops, the “terrorists” managed to escape.

Home Page

International Volunteers Form ‘Human Shield’ for Palestinian Families
by Peter Beaumont and Martin Wainwright / Guardian of London
More than 200 international volunteers, including some 50 Britons, deployed themselves in Ramallah and two refugee camps at Bethlehem Sunday night in an attempt to form “human shields” for Palestinian families. The British contingent, ranging from a retired nurse from Kent to a group of students from Manchester, joined Americans and Europeans dispersed among houses close to Yasser Arafat’s headquarters and Israeli army tank formations near Bethlehem’s Azar and Aida refugee camps. Israel ordered all foreign volunteers and journalists to leave Ramallah Sunday, as another media worker was shot and wounded while covering the fighting in the city.

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Statement from U.S. Veterans to Israeli Troops

“What Israel is doing now is a war crime” – Israeli Refusenik

You are at war. You are being ordered to shoot on site anything that moves. Palestinian children, reporters, ambulance drivers and international observers are all in your rifle sites. There will be more blood flowing and much of it will be on your hands. As veterans of U.S. imperialism, we also know what it is like to be ordered into battle against a people fighting for their land and liberation. We learned the hard way that this is the wrong kind of fight to fight.

The situation in Palestine is at a dangerous flashpoint. What you are being asked to carry out is not Israeli self-defense but naked aggression and the massacre of Palestine. As a result of these actions the whole region may well erupt in all out war. Now there is even talk of Israeli’s using nuclear weapons–bigger bombs mean more deaths!

Today’s all out war was planned and provoked by the Israeli government. Sharon’s armed provocation, which started the fighting and brought him to power was a deliberate way to initiate and then legitimize this war. A war that now threatens the U.S. plans for Iraq. The Middle East region has always been important to the strategic interests of the U.S. and Israel has always had a free hand in “doing the dirty work”. Israel was created with and continues to receive the support of the U.S. government because Israel acts as a junior tner to the U.S in the Middle East. Like the U.S., Israel is an imperialist power, where “self-defense” means enforcing imperialist interests in the region. The U.S. is seeking to strengthen its political and military domination in the Middle East as the oil resources of this region and Central Asia are key lifelines of the world economy. The U.S. also seeks this to further its “interests” in all surrounding regions. Now Israel is waging a key t of the U.S.’s global “war on terrorism”emdash an open-ended campaign of terror against people in as many as 60 countries. At the top of the U.S. list is Iraq– where over ten years of sanctions, with the resulting deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent infants and children, have failed to force Iraq to capitulate to U.S. demands. After thousands of missile attacks and bombings of so-called military targets like dams, power stations, etc.; these criminals are now preing to escalate their war on Iraq with a full scale invasion, while threatening its neighbors Iran and Syria.

Sharon and the U.S. government claim that the central problem in Palestine is “violence”. The real “problem” is that the Palestinians refuse to lie down and abandon their just struggle against Israeli occupation of their land and domination of their lives. As soldiers you are taught to regard Palestinians as sub-human, but isn’t that exactly how the Nazis regarded the trapped and desperate Jews of the Warsaw ghetto in 1944? Now you are invading the Deheishe refugee camp on the West Bank in the middle of the night with tanks and Apache helicopter gun ships. Some 600 men from Deheishe were rounded up, blindfolded and handcuffed as Israeli soldiers wrote numbers on their arms and foreheads. None of us can miss the chilling allel to the Nazi’s tattooing ID numbers on prisoners in the concentration camps. What about you? The U.S. murders thousands of Iraqi’s each month. Will you do the same to the Palestinians? Will you be able to live with yourself afterward?

You have a choice to make: either stand with Sharon and the attempt to liquidate a people or stand with the people of the world and refuse to ticipate in acts of genocide.

Over one thousand of your comrades–refuseniks–have taken the heroic stand of refusing to serve in the occupied territories adding to the history of soldiers’ resistance, which spans countries and wars. VVAWAI stands with and salutes all those who resist while in uniform. We know the importance that resistance within a military has on its ability to wage war. Many of us faced similar decisions and, like the refuseniks, made the hard choices. That’s why we are anti-imperialists now. To us, the real heroes of any imperialist war are the GI resisters, those who refuse to “just follow orders”. The reasons why these refuseniks are taking this stand are as many and varied as the people involved, however the importance is the action itself. With their stand, the refuseniks join the proud legacy of the real heroes of imperialist wars. They along with people fighting for justice all over the world are your true sisters and brothers.

As veterans we know that imperialists never willingly grant freedom to the oppressed. We are calling upon you to refuse orders and stand with the Palestinian people–as we stand determined to stop the war-without-limits that the U.S. is waging on the people of the world. We know >from bitter experience that any “peace agreement” reached with the violence and might of imperialism is a false peace for the people subjected to it.

You should know that while you’re carrying out your orders, there will be veterans from previous wars leading and ticipating in demonstrations against your presence in Palestine. Like you, we were ordered to “do our duty” but many of us resisted, rejecting the feeble excuse of “just doing my job”. It’s never too late for you to follow your conscience. You are not without options. There are many creative ways to resist. If one of you refuses orders, we will support you. If ten of you refuse orders, we will back you. And we look forward to welcoming you into our ranks. The troops that we support are the troops who refuse to fight. There is no glory in murder, no excuse in obedience, and no future in patriotism. If we have to fight and die, let it be for the world, not for the warlords.

We salute the “internationalistas” — people >from all over the world, including Israel, who have come to stand with the Palestinian people as observers, human shields and protesters. They true heroes. We also salute the heroism and self-sacrifice of all the medical and relief workers who are carrying out their duties in the midst of this war.

Terri Allred
VVAW AI
Seattle, WA
vvawai@oz.net
www.oz.net/~vvawai

“The Courage to Refuse” – campaign   www.couragetorefuse.org

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CRUCIAL RESOURCES

The Palestine-Israeli Conflict
— by Dan Cohn-Sherbok, et al; Paperback
Our Price: $11.16

Israel and Palestine:
A list by raprieto, a follower of history

The Arab-Israeli Conflict Primer:
A list by Eric Gartman, IR/Middle East Grad Student

The Mideast Peace Process : An Autopsy
by Neal Kozodoy (Editor), Mark Helprin (Afterword) (Paperback – December 2001)

Zionism & Israel: A list by prb, informed observer

Before Their Diaspora : A Photographic History of the Palestinians, 1876-1948
by Walid Khalidi (Paperback )

All That Remains : The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948
by Walid Khalidi (Editor) (Hardcover)

FutureWorks MediaBank
http://www.futureworks.mirrorz.com

No Man’s Land (2001) — Branko Djuric, Rene Bitorajac; DVD Keep Case
Danis Tanovic’s savage satire of the war in the Balkans is an astounding balancing act, an acidic black comedy grounded in the brutality and horror of war. Stuck in an abandoned trench between enemy lines, a Serb and a Bosnian play the blame game in a comic tit-for-tat struggle while a wounded Serb soldier lies helplessly on a land mine. A French tank unit of the U.N.’s humanitarian force (known locally as “the Smurfs”), a scheming British TV reporter, a German mine defuser, and the U.N. high command (led by a bombastically ineffectual Simon Callow) all become tangled in the chaotic rescue as the tenuous cease-fire is only a spark away from detonation. Tanovic directs with a ferocious, angry eloquence and makes his points with vivid metaphors and a savage humor as harrowing as it is hilarious. Searing and smart, this satire carries an emotional recoil.
No Man’s Land

§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§¢§

“This is not a dress rehearsal for the apocalypse.
This is not a pseudo-millenium.
This is the real thing folks. This is not a test.
This is the last chance before things become
so dissipated that there is no chance for cohesiveness.”
–Terence McKenna

“It is in the inherent nature of human beings
to yearn for freedom, equality and dignity.
Brute force, no matter how strongly applied,
can never subdue the basic desire
for freedom and dignity.”
H. H. Dalai Lama

“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen
to set brush fires in people’s minds..”
–Samuel Adams

“We will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
— Martin Luther King Jr.
FutureWorks MixFactory
http://www.geocities.com/futuremagick
FutureWorks MediaBank
http://www.futureworks.mirrorz.com
===========
ride a bike

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 9, 2002 at 4:14:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:58:20PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| >Another issue is talking to the
| | dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| | visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported. And
| | the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what about
| | this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
| | neurology and brain science.<
|
| So, how is this different than say, mainlining Ketamine? Other than for
| length of trip?
| Peace,
| Preston

Well, gah, I have like an entire chapter’s worth of material ’bout that
(the headspace properties of various hallucinogens, natural vs. synthetic,
LSD vs. ketamine vs. ibogaine vs…), but the compressed, highly short,
abridged if ya will; answer:

Not significantly different.  (Although many people would disagree with
me.)  EXCEPT … speshul-K — while subjectively having its own
anti-addictive qualities — ain’t gonna be un-springing you, and making
much of a dent in your habit.  “dood mahn, wow, cool, I talked to g0d, all
creation was revealed to me, I went to heaven, hell, studio ’54 and
woodstock, uhmmm…  ‘scuse me, gotta go cop, I seem to be in withdrawal.”

Many hallucinogens/entheogens/psychedelics will take you on similar
journeys.  The one specific thing that appears to be absolutely unique to
ibogaine, is that skeleton key effect which unloX all LoX, unsprings you
and makes your opiate/opioid dependence fade out.

There isn’t anything else which does this.  (That I know about anyway.)

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] test message
Date: April 9, 2002 at 4:05:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:03:23PM -0400], [donny snuffaluffagus] wrote:

| I turned off the rich text format in hotmail… Did this remove the HTML
| coding?? Please let me know so that I can get this figured out and continue
| to use the mailing list.  Thanks a million.  Donny

YES.

Thanks a bunch.

Patrick

From: “donny snuffaluffagus” <loudon420@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] test message
Date: April 9, 2002 at 4:03:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I turned off the rich text format in hotmail… Did this remove the HTML coding?? Please let me know so that I can get this figured out and continue to use the mailing list.  Thanks a million.  Donny

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 9, 2002 at 3:58:20 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Another issue is talking to the
| dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported. And
| the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what about
| this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
| neurology and brain science.<

So, how is this different than say, mainlining Ketamine? Other than for
length of trip?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:32:07PM +0100], [Nick Sandberg] wrote:

| Here’s a copy of the review from the latest Entheogen Review, on the
| Proceedings from the Ibogaine Conference book. Many thanks to Howard for
| sending me hard copy. Personally, I thought the review was OK, but
rather
| overly sensationalist, with some weak styling, and containing several
| factual innaccuracies, especially in its description of the Indra iboga
| extract

Hey Nick…

I wouldn’t be that hard on him.  While there are a variety of factual
errors, facts only get in the way of things and can prevent an excellent
emotional catharsis from taking place.

I think he provides a wonderful summary of the whole entire situation in
its complete totality, in a single paragraph:

| What are the real issues here? One real issue is hard-core heroin and
| cocaine addiction and the hard-core shamanic cure – a dramatic cure that
| imparts psychic powers on the survivor. Another issue is talking to the
| dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported.
And
| the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what
about
| this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
| neurology and brain science.

What more need be said.  He has a HANDLE on THINGS and STUFF, and clearly
UNDERSTANDS.

Patrick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 9, 2002 at 2:32:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

| What are the real issues here? One real issue is hard-core heroin and
| cocaine addiction and the hard-core shamanic cure – a dramatic cure that
| imparts psychic powers on the survivor. Another issue is talking to the
| dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported. And
| the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what about
| this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
| neurology and brain science.

AMEN.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 9, 2002 at 2:30:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

| PS: I am *still* not mocking you.

Patrick Kroupa aLa John Malkovich sez:

“I WILL NAUGHT BE MOCKED!”

“I WILL NAUGHT BE MOCKED!”

<snicker>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 9, 2002 at 2:23:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:32:07PM +0100], [Nick Sandberg] wrote:

| Here’s a copy of the review from the latest Entheogen Review, on the
| Proceedings from the Ibogaine Conference book. Many thanks to Howard for
| sending me hard copy. Personally, I thought the review was OK, but rather
| overly sensationalist, with some weak styling, and containing several
| factual innaccuracies, especially in its description of the Indra iboga
| extract

Hey Nick…

I wouldn’t be that hard on him.  While there are a variety of factual
errors, facts only get in the way of things and can prevent an excellent
emotional catharsis from taking place.

I think he provides a wonderful summary of the whole entire situation in
its complete totality, in a single paragraph:

| What are the real issues here? One real issue is hard-core heroin and
| cocaine addiction and the hard-core shamanic cure – a dramatic cure that
| imparts psychic powers on the survivor. Another issue is talking to the
| dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
| visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported. And
| the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what about
| this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
| neurology and brain science.

What more need be said.  He has a HANDLE on THINGS and STUFF, and clearly
UNDERSTANDS.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 9, 2002 at 2:00:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:52:57PM -0700], [ibogaine@heroinhelper.com] wrote:

| PS: I am *still* not mocking you. Reading your email has a certain
| LSD aspect to it–and its legal–for a while anyway; I hear it may be
| scheduled soon–the e-mail will be schedule III, but the straight
| semicolons will be schedule II.

Look, (inside the mind) EVERYBODY is GUILTY, I meant to say totally
innocent.  Speaking of which…  Dana, dude, you prolly already know this,
but Yet Again, Philip K. Dick is being wedged further into the epicenter
of the zeitgeist spin type collective vision thing.  Minority Report is
COMING, and it’s a Speilberg movie.  Alas, Tom Cruise is innit, but it
still looks highly neato…

When all’s said and done, I’m sure it’ll have about as much to do with
Philip K. Dick as Total Recall, but on the other hand Blade Runner was one
of the greatest films ever made.

The End of Days begin in earnest, woo hoo!

Patrick

I am still waiting for the Elric movie.  Perhaps I should get up off my
ass and write the screenplay since nobody else appears to be doing so.
Michael Moorcock is sadly underappreciated as a drug addicted,
wacked out, fully fucking crazy science fiction writer — err, I
meant to say: GENIUS!  …or sumthin’ . . .

“Look, I obviously cannot go battle the forces of darkness right now, I’m
totally sprung and need my meds dood.  Well either all that, or
Stormbringer and a few thousand souls.”

;schedule . . . ][ i caN live with;

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] any advice???
Date: April 9, 2002 at 1:52:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

+p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
+;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

Just lOvE them Non breaking spaces. thought you would too, Patrick.

Cool punkchewayshun.

But Hey, Donny… you come to the right place. Chances are ‘someone’ might help
you. Their people will contact the other people who will contact your people.
hopefully.

Hey, it only took me a year of desperatly finding affordable ibogaine
treatment till I was helped. Of course you’ll have to be spirited away to the
land of no draconian drug laws and all that stuff cuz its illegal in GA, and
surrounding territories.

-g

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] any advice???
Date: April 9, 2002 at 1:32:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:02:46AM -0400], [donny snuffaluffagus] wrote:

My one immediate piece of advice that comes to mind is: please UNCLICK,
uncheck, un-whatever, the BOX on hotmail that sez (roughly) “Send as HTML?
Send as Rich Text?”  How ’bout SEND AS TEXT.

Unless I run it through metamail, what I see from your message is
reproduced below:

(Yes I get the gist of it, but it’d be much eaisier to read without all
this crap splattered throughout.  Since everybody and their grandmother
is using yahoo lately, or hotmail, and they post to this list — while I
do not know the specifics of the hotmail interface, I am 100% sure that
SOMEWHERE in your settings, the one I just mentioned exists.  PLEASE
click it.  Thank you.)

(Just bitching)

Patrick

– – – – – – – – –

<html><div style=’background-color:’><DIV>Hello all… Im a 24 year old
male in
+GA. Addicted to heroin on &amp; off since I was 17.&nbsp;
Logically,&nbsp;I
+know&nbsp;I dont wanna keep using, but when the opportunity arrises,
logic
+seems to go out the window.&nbsp; I guess maybe some of you&nbsp;know
what Im
+talking about, huh??&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Anyway…. I am very interested in ibogaine and have done as much
reading
+on the subject as Ive had time to do in the last 2 weeks.&nbsp; I would
love to
+experience the drug, and judging from opinions of those who have used the
drug,
+I think the possibility of ibogaine helping me is very good.&nbsp; Right
now I
+am on 30mg methadone per day, and I still use occasionally&nbsp;
(although I
+try not to, I usually end up using at least twice a week).&nbsp; My only
+problem is the cost situation.&nbsp; If anyone has any information on
options
+that might be available for me such as reduced cost or no cost treatment,
and
+who might provide such a favor to me, please contact me and let me
know.&nbsp;
+I can be emailed directly at <A
+href=”mailto:loudon420@hotmail.com”>loudon420@hotmail.com</A> and I
appreciate
+any help that anyone could offer.&nbsp; If anybody can point me in the
right
+direction I would be very
+grateful.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs
+p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp
+;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs

From: “donny snuffaluffagus” <loudon420@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] any advice???
Date: April 9, 2002 at 11:02:46 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello all… Im a 24 year old male in GA. Addicted to heroin on & off since I was 17.  Logically, I know I dont wanna keep using, but when the opportunity arrises, logic seems to go out the window.  I guess maybe some of you know what Im talking about, huh??

Anyway…. I am very interested in ibogaine and have done as much reading on the subject as Ive had time to do in the last 2 weeks.  I would love to experience the drug, and judging from opinions of those who have used the drug, I think the possibility of ibogaine helping me is very good.  Right now I am on 30mg methadone per day, and I still use occasionally  (although I try not to, I usually end up using at least twice a week).  My only problem is the cost situation.  If anyone has any information on options that might be available for me such as reduced cost or no cost treatment, and who might provide such a favor to me, please contact me and let me know.  I can be emailed directly at loudon420@hotmail.com and I appreciate any help that anyone could offer.  If anybody can point me in the right direction I would be very grateful.                                                            THANKS….  ^*^Donny^*^

Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 9, 2002 at 9:00:48 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know Howard. I had an interesting experience around Christmas time,
well, actually on Christmas, wherein I was SURE I had clued in (through
shrooms) to the ONEness of it all, and for a few days afterwards, I found it
more than a bit difficult to write. Not sure why, and it didn’t last, but it
was “. . . just . . . “: shrooms.
(http://www.drugwar.com/ptpeetmushrooms.shtm – note the brevity of this
description)
Wonder what effect ibogaine would have on me personally if this happened
with such a lite dose of something other than ibogaine.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox

In a message dated 4/8/02 9:35:08 PM, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com writes:

And what if Ibogaine worked and I never wrote
about drugs again? That would be too weird: “I stopped writing
about drugs because of this drug… But I don’t wanna talk about it.”

No! No! No!  You wouldn’t stop writing about drugs you would just write
about
ibogaine.

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] radio 100 police action
Date: April 9, 2002 at 6:24:10 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Radio 100 was the pirate radio station that first broke ibogaine news in The
Netherands, IN 1987.  It was at the heart of the dutch squatter movement.
The following post appeared on another list.  Check out the station.

Howard
**********
ORIGINAL MESSAGE

Some (delayed) news about the ‘professional’ police action against Radio 100

from Amsterdam – one of the last true free (strictly non-commercial) radio

stations of the Netherlands. Lots of bizarre experimental sounds & live audio

stream (16 Kbps) at:

http://www.radio100.nl/_eng/live_stream/index.html

enjoy while still possible!

News:

!! RADIO 100 Police Raid Attempt !!

Wednesday 20th March, some ten police officials attempted to raid the
building

where the antenna of Radio 100 is located, allegedly to look for the studio
and

transmitter. The police team included a cop acting as (assistant) public

prosecutor, some plain clothes officers and some in uniform.

Evidently there was a lot of confusion on the part of the police as they said

that they did not have “the right paperwork”! A search warrant was not shown
to

anyone. Residents and workers from the building peacefully resisted the
police

and finally persuaded them to leave empty-handed after more than an hour. The

(assistant) public prosecutor went on to fill in some paperwork in front of
the

door whilst Radio 100 sympathisers gathered around responding to the
city-wide

alarm. The police left and the alarm centre was informed. Our very warmest

thanks to all who came to our support and to residents and workers who stood
in

the way of the police.

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 11:40:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I could focus on my novel writing. Let’s see, novel
number one: “It’s about these junkies…” Novel number two: “It’s
about this junkie…” And what if Ibogaine worked and I never wrote
about drugs again? That would be too weird: “I stopped writing
about drugs because of this drug… But I don’t wanna talk about it.”

Now you’re beginning to get it.. so no need to take ibogaine 🙂

Bill Ross

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 9, 2002 at 2:31:37 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 06:25:33PM -0700], [ibogaine@heroinhelper.com] wrote:

| I just figured out what I like so much about you, Patrick: your
| spelling. “Fulchrum” is brilliant–no question. Of course, I learned to
| spell listening to Popeye, so what do I know?

Look, don’t mock me!  I’m working and cannot be mocked right now.  I am
also a Fully Certified Graduate of the Drew Ross Academy, and have passed
“Learn to Spell Reel Good, and Grammar Excellently!” class.  (Insider
secret: CLICK THE FUCKING SPELLCHECK BUTTON!  If that doesn’t solve
everything and you still see GREEN LINES, click the “Re-Wroten into
Englishing” button.)

It’s this; punctuation^ thing& I sometimes; find confusing.?  Mostly, I
just pick@ the symbols which look pretty.  Post-ibogaine, I find that
semi-colons REALLY call to me.  Perhaps I should write a monograph about
this eXperience;  The “. . .” thing is old, I’ve liked those ever since
LSD, not like the trailing dots all smooshed together, but the dot space
dot space dot combination, ellipsis to get all technical.  They make me
feel Happy Inside.

;patricK . . .

Check out my latest newsletter.

Also, progress is being made getting democrats and republicans to
compete to jump thru hoops for ibogaine.

Suddenly each is paranoid the other is on it.

Having a candidate drug like 18 MC doesn’t hurt.

Whether we can pull this out in time to affect anything soon remains
to be seen.

Dana/cnw

From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 10:55:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But that’s what I’m afraid of. Third novel: “It’s about this guy who
does Ibogaine. . .” <— Hey Patrick, note the spaces between the
dots!

Francis

On 8 Apr 2002, at 21:55, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/8/02 9:35:08 PM, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com writes:

And what if Ibogaine worked and I never wrote
about drugs again? That would be too weird: “I stopped writing
about drugs because of this drug… But I don’t wanna talk about it.”

No! No! No!  You wouldn’t stop writing about drugs you would just write about
ibogaine.

Howard

From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 10:52:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Look Bud! I was *not* mocking you. I get into this with my wife all
the time; it’s what I learned from William Carlos Williams (even
though he was already dead when I was born); we understand the
language so we can *play* with it. I realize I don’t do a lot of playing
myself, but I did once write, “Life is fleeting, like the navy”. I was
just 16 then, and had never read WCW (as his *close* friends knew
him).

Now I must leave the subject of mocking and writing and discuss a
very important point in the world of typesetting. An ellipsis is, as
you say, three dots. But in most fonts, three dots put together will
be too far apart, not too close together. This is especially true with
monospaced fonts. I share your love of punctuation, however. One
of my biggest complaints (shows the high level at which I operate)
is that the em-dash is not yet in the HTML standard. I *need* em-
dashes because one can hang sentence fragments from them.
Semicolons are great too; I over-use them with glee–the kind the
reindeer had at the end of that socialist’s stupid poem; you know
the one–or not.

I don’t think Mr. Shaw could have put it better.

Francis (GB Shaw and WC Williams all in one (plus a little Fowler–
pick one, but I mean HW–thrown in)) Moraes

PS: I am *still* not mocking you. Reading your email has a certain
LSD aspect to it–and its legal–for a while anyway; I hear it may be
scheduled soon–the e-mail will be schedule III, but the straight
semicolons will be schedule II.

On 8 Apr 2002, at 21:43, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 06:25:33PM -0700], [ibogaine@heroinhelper.com] wrote:

| I just figured out what I like so much about you, Patrick: your
| spelling. “Fulchrum” is brilliant–no question. Of course, I learned to
| spell listening to Popeye, so what do I know?

Look, don’t mock me!  I’m working and cannot be mocked right now.  I am
also a Fully Certified Graduate of the Drew Ross Academy, and have passed
“Learn to Spell Reel Good, and Grammar Excellently!” class.  (Insider
secret: CLICK THE FUCKING SPELLCHECK BUTTON!  If that doesn’t solve
everything and you still see GREEN LINES, click the “Re-Wroten into
Englishing” button.)

It’s this; punctuation^ thing& I sometimes; find confusing.?  Mostly, I
just pick@ the symbols which look pretty.  Post-ibogaine, I find that
semi-colons REALLY call to me.  Perhaps I should write a monograph about
this eXperience;  The “. . .” thing is old, I’ve liked those ever since
LSD, not like the trailing dots all smooshed together, but the dot space
dot space dot combination, ellipsis to get all technical.  They make me
feel Happy Inside.

;patricK . . .

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 9:55:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/8/02 9:35:08 PM, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com writes:

And what if Ibogaine worked and I never wrote
about drugs again? That would be too weird: “I stopped writing
about drugs because of this drug… But I don’t wanna talk about it.”

No! No! No!  You wouldn’t stop writing about drugs you would just write about
ibogaine.

Howard

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 9:43:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 06:25:33PM -0700], [ibogaine@heroinhelper.com] wrote:

| I just figured out what I like so much about you, Patrick: your
| spelling. “Fulchrum” is brilliant–no question. Of course, I learned to
| spell listening to Popeye, so what do I know?

Look, don’t mock me!  I’m working and cannot be mocked right now.  I am
also a Fully Certified Graduate of the Drew Ross Academy, and have passed
“Learn to Spell Reel Good, and Grammar Excellently!” class.  (Insider
secret: CLICK THE FUCKING SPELLCHECK BUTTON!  If that doesn’t solve
everything and you still see GREEN LINES, click the “Re-Wroten into
Englishing” button.)

It’s this; punctuation^ thing& I sometimes; find confusing.?  Mostly, I
just pick@ the symbols which look pretty.  Post-ibogaine, I find that
semi-colons REALLY call to me.  Perhaps I should write a monograph about
this eXperience;  The “. . .” thing is old, I’ve liked those ever since
LSD, not like the trailing dots all smooshed together, but the dot space
dot space dot combination, ellipsis to get all technical.  They make me
feel Happy Inside.

;patricK . . .

From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 9:35:56 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m not sure if you’re kidding or not. I wasn’t–not completely
anyway. It has been occurring to me that I am addicted to writing
about drugs. Can’t do heroin, so do HEROIN helper. And it doesn’t
help matters that I have these publisher pushers who will pay me to
write about drugs I don’t even respect (at least, not the next
morning). I could focus on my novel writing. Let’s see, novel
number one: “It’s about these junkies…” Novel number two: “It’s
about this junkie…” And what if Ibogaine worked and I never wrote
about drugs again? That would be too weird: “I stopped writing
about drugs because of this drug… But I don’t wanna talk about it.”

Francis

PS: If this is just too strange: ignore it; delete it; it never happened;
I don’t write about drugs.

On 8 Apr 2002, at 15:40, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/8/02 3:34:49 PM, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com writes:

Actually, Francis badly needs a detox–he’s just not sure for what.

That is the exact application that ibogaine is indicated for according to the
package insert.  “To be used when no one is sure of the indication for which
treatment is being requested or provided”.  Just kidding.  mmmm?

From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 9:25:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I just figured out what I like so much about you, Patrick: your
spelling. “Fulchrum” is brilliant–no question. Of course, I learned to
spell listening to Popeye, so what do I know?

But watch about about the water supply. You’re sounding a little
too much like Dead Tim–and you know what I think of him.

Francis

On 8 Apr 2002, at 15:01, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

Yeah, ibogaine is really cool as a headspace adjustment tool/spiritual
integrater.  It’s a highly versatile universal fulchrum kinda molecule.

All that being said, nothing quite beats taking it while totally sprung,
and then realizing a day later that HOLY FUCKING SHIT…  IT WORKED!  I
don’t believe this, but it worked, it worked!  It Worked!  There is a God!
Wow, too fucking cool, my habit is gone…

Patrick

EVERYONE should take ibogaine.  It should be dumped from helicopters onto
inner cities.  It should be mixed into children’s vitamins.  It should be
thrown into the water supply, it should…   Oh, sorry, wrong track inside
my mind, lemme adjust it.

Have I mentioned my feelings about LSD lately…?  Just checking.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: April 8, 2002 at 9:00:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This doesn’t answer what indra is exactly, if it’s still any good after being stored for so long and what potency is left in it. But like almost everything at least some of the answers are on the internet and you can find them using google 🙂 .:vector:. Reprinted from: http://www.ridgetelnet.com/~jenks/ibogaine/121299.html Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:24:43 EST From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” Subject: Re: indra ibo(beginning) In a message dated 12/11/99 10:48:50 AM, ibogalab@hotmail.com (Carl) wrote: > I have been working with the Iboga alkaloids over the last sixteen years Carl, What precipitated your work with ibogaine? How did you come to it? Please be only as open as you feel comfortable in being. Thanks. Howard Well,Howard it is a very long story,I guess it started with being born into a family where visionary plants and drugs was part of the cultural heritage,and literature in that field was abundant.Huxley’s”Island”,Baudelaire’s”the artificial paradises”de Ropp’s “drugs and the mind” etc. was my childhood literature,my father was a book publisher and translator and a journalist with a strong revolutionary impact on contemporary society throughout the 1960’s and my school years in the late sixties were heavily laced with psychedelic drugs and social protest,the Vietnam war being what it was and youth culture being what it was… I first came across the Iboga plant when I returned from a soujourn with the medicine men of Tanzania ,Kenya and Uganda in the Kilimanjaro area (doing some highly classified magic that was part of overthrowing the Idi Amin dictatorship),finding dr Hofmann’s and dr Schultes’ elegant volume “Plants of the Gods”.Then,as I stated earlier,I was working with numerous medicinal plants in a pharmaceutical house,and the Iboga plant was one of them.At that time,we considered it to be a rather wild and rough trip with a lot of undesirable side effects,so I set out to “tame” this wild spirit into something more manageable,as I intuitively felt that here was something with a tremendous healing potential.In the same time period Christiania Freetown had a severe problem with hard drug abuse,criminal biker gangs fighting over street level drug market control,heavily armed maniacs, and a lot of police brutality.The scene was disgusting,so the Psychedelic Movement decided to make the entire arsenal of visionary plants and drugs readily available at street level,on the principle that on a truly free market good drugs will drive out the bad,and the Iboga extract was one of the materials employed in this endeavour.It was a successful operation,and Chritiania Freetown has remained a zone entirely free from hard drugs like opiates,cocaine, speed etc.to this day, and violence is rare,although there are some problems with alcohol and tourism… To acheive consensus on “no hard drugs” in a community is no easy thing and our model may not be universally applicable,but the principles involved could indeed be applied worldwide in a more enlightened future.To some extent there are hopeful signs that visionary plants and drugs are becoming an accepted part of everyday reality in the western “civilization”,and that long-lost profession of being a psychedelic guide will be back in business, as was the case in the 1950’s and early60’s,with a new role to play in using the Iboga alkaloids in therapy and counseling.In this spirit,I will do what I can,as much as I can, as fast as I can… Cordially,Carl On Mon, 08 April 2002, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com wrote > Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is less dangerous > than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine. For people > who need codeine, why not prescribe really small amounts of > heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no sense and > doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics to pre-meds; it > was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my first student > becoming a license physician.) > > Francis > > > On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM, synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes: > > > > > Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it answered my question. > > >What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and if they broke it down > > >from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that instead of turning it > > >into HCL? Is this some company making it right now or what. I’m lost. What > > >I mean is what is the reason, why make this when you can get HCL from it > > >and what am I buying if I buy indra? > > > > Without giving you a direct response… why does opium exist and morphine > > exist when the manufacturer could go on to make heroin? I think indra is the > > equivalent of a trade name. Indra can be reached at > > . You might ask them to explain > > themselves. > > > > Howard > >
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 8, 2002 at 6:00:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

the hard-core shamanic cure – a dramatic cure that
imparts psychic powers on the survivor.

Interesting choice of words – ‘survivor’.

The Bwiti are the celebrated African tribe that originally
used the iboga plant in its occult ceremonies.

Leaving aside that the pygmies are the tribe credited with
first using eboka.

A cult within the Bwiti called the Fang is also mentioned.

And leaving aside that the Bwiti is a cult in the Fang tribe
(as well as Mitsogo).

Bill Ross

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I’d Love to Get High, Howard…
Date: April 8, 2002 at 4:40:41 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] I’d Love to Get High, Howard…

It’s legal here in England, but they are about to schedule it and
therefore
make it a ‘controlled drug’ as soon as they can…

Have to mention this is not strictly true, as I understand things. Tab iboga
rootbark and extract are due to be placed in Sch 3 later this year, along
with Ginkyo biloba and an assortment of herbs the medicines control people
have had negative reports of, meaning you’ll need to be a doc or a
registered herbalist to prescribe it. Iboga extract is there because someone
did die trying to detox with it in Jan 2000. nick

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com [mailto:ibogaine@heroinhelper.com]
Sent: 07 April 2002 01:08
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] I’d Love to Get High, Howard…

That sounds like a good idea, but I wouldn’t do it now because it’s
illegal. I don’t even forget to use my turn signal when driving, such
is the fear that I have of jail. Liberty or death–and I mean that.

Am I correct that ibogaine is a psychedelic? When I was 17 (like
the Sinatra songs but not so many girls who lived up the stairs) I
was *way* into LSD and any other drug that acted like that
(including marijuana, which to my surprise most people do not
perceive that way). All this is to say that I would *like* to try the
drug. Are there countries where it is legal? Even by a prescription?

Another question I have is about cost. What I have heard regarding
ibogaine detoxes is that they are about the same as Antagonist
Rapid Detoxs: $7000. Is the *drug* that expensive or is most of
that the *treatment*. Wow. It just occurred to me that that would
make a great addition to my site: detox costs (like I don’t have
about 100 “ideas” that I don’t have time to write).

Francis

On 6 Apr 2002, at 18:29, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

Hi Francis,

OK, to everything you say.  My suggestion is one of these days check out
ibogaine if you like.  I anticipate you will either think it is great or
not
or love it or hate it and I would be very interested to know how you
feel
about it at that then?  It doesn’t matter whether your addicted to
heroin
or
not.  That utility is just another aspect of ibogaine effects.

Howard

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] right up Nick’s alley
Date: April 8, 2002 at 4:37:12 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Don’t know about things being right up my alley……..ooh er missus.
Blueprint for a Prison Planet, by me is online at
www.nick2211.yage.net/chips.htm – written after an ibogaine experience in
december 99. all the best. nick

—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 10:27 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] right up Nick’s alley

From: Michael Novick <part2001@usa.net>
Subject: Verichip approved for human implantation
Status:

April 5, 2002 redpoet@swbell.net Volume 2002.59
The Oread Daily is a Peoples’ Paper and is Responsible Only to the People
(whoever they might be)
OREAD DAILY
VERICHIP: DON’T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT ONE
“I’m for the right to privacy but not necessarily the right to
anonymity.” – Bill Joy, Sun Microsystems’ chief scientist and
co-founder
Well, not to worry, Bill, that right is certainly on the way out. My
friends, you might want to remember April 4 as the day IT all began.
Someday you’ll look back and tell youngins that you remember a time
when the government didn’t know where you were. Yesterday, you see,
Applied Digital Solutions, Inc. announced that it had received
written guidance that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
does not consider VeriChip to be a regulated medical device. That
cleared the way for the company to begin sales, marketing and
distribution of VeriChipT in the United States. VeriChip, first
announced on December 19, 2001, is a miniaturized, implantable, radio
frequency identification device (RFID). About the size of a grain of
rice, each VeriChip is composed of FDA-accepted materials and
contains a unique verification number. That number is captured by
briefly passing a proprietary, external scanner over the VeriChip. A
small amount of radio frequency energy passes through the skin
energizing the dormant VeriChip, which then emits a radio frequency
signal transmitting the verification number. The chip can be
implanted under the skin and can store all kinds of information about
you. Mostly “people” are talking about that information storage
option. You know if you come into the ER unconscious, the nurses can
learn your allergic to penicillin (or you could just wear a medical
alert bracelet). The chip could carry, in fact, any other information
about you that the authorities might think would be useful, to, you
know, prevent terrorist incidents. Oh yeah, the company also says the
chip could be combined with a global positioning system (GPS) and
used for “security purposes by potential kidnap victims.” The
VeriChip is now touted as a device that would help you find your
missing loved who is suffering from Alzheimer’s disease, or that
kidnapped diplomat, or your lost dog. Course, it could also be used
to keep track of dissidents and other such troublemakers. The same
technology could certainly be used as part of a national ID system.
Sun Microsystems’ Joy says he expects that notions about civil
liberties may have to be revisited in the name of security and
freedom. He says, “We now have until another shoe drops to come up
with some practical way of creating mechanisms that govern privacy
while at the same time resetting expectations about civil liberties.”
Applied Digital Solutions, Inc. describes itself as,”. an advanced
technology development company that focuses on a range of early
warning alert, miniaturized power sources and security monitoring
systems combined with the comprehensive data management services
required to support them. Through its Advanced Wireless unit, the
Company specializes in security-related data collection, value-added
data intelligence and complex data delivery systems for a wide
variety of end users including commercial operations, government
agencies and consumers.”
Sources: Applied Digital Solutions, Inc., Information Week, WFMY-News
2 (Greensboro, NC), NewsFactor Network

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] The Entheogen Review
Date: April 8, 2002 at 4:32:07 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here’s a copy of the review from the latest Entheogen Review, on the
Proceedings from the Ibogaine Conference book. Many thanks to Howard for
sending me hard copy. Personally, I thought the review was OK, but rather
overly sensationalist, with some weak styling, and containing several
factual innaccuracies, especially in its description of the Indra iboga
extract

all the best

Nick

………………………………………………………………….
………………………

from The Entheogen Review, Vol XI, Number 1, Vernal Equinox

Ibogaine: Proceedings of the First International Conference, by KENNETH R.
ALPER and STANLEY D. GLICK (Eds) 2001. (ACADEMIC PRESS, 525 B Street, Suite
1900, San Diego, CA 92101-4495, www.academicpress.com), ISBN 0-12053-206-9
(6″ x 9″ softbound $79.95, 333 pp., alkaloid index and general index.

I’ve had a long-standing interest in Tabernanthe iboga and ibogaine studies
ever since I published the GOUTAREL, GOLLNOFER, and SILLANS summary,
“Pharmacodynamics and Therapeutic Applications of Iboga and Ibogaine,” in my
Psychedelic Monographs and Essays Vol. 6. This article collected everything
known in English in 1993 about ibogaine research. Dr GOUTAREL was the
scientist who originally helped isolate ibogaine alkaloids in the early
1950s. Soon after this article was published, several books appeared,
including The Ibogaine Project: Report on the Staten Island Project by PAUL
DE RIENZO and DANA BEAL (Autonomedia, 1997), and Iboga by AMON KNUT ML
(Maribor, 1994). And papers continue to appear in academic and medical
journals.

Along with this glut of publishing came many mystical and romantic notions
of ibogaine as an “addiction cure” (now called an “addiction interrupter”).
Ibogaine achieved – at least for a while – postmodern ‘soma’ status. Soap
opera camp – as publicized by the HOWARD LOTSOF/DEBORAH MASH “wars”
surrounding ibogaine patents – appeared as an aside. During this tug-of-war,
science continued onward. Research has been collected and serious science
has evolved regarding ibogaine. Ibogaine: The Proceedings celebrates 40
years of investigations and evolving therapy regimes.

As with soma, ibogaine is a subject which deserves the higher ground, and
this new book is written by the best minds available, with funding and
continued research as its goal. IBOGAINE: THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
was held in New York City in 1999, and this book collects the proceedings,
plus more. Adding to pharmaceutical and toxicology research is new
information regarding therapies that use ibogaine, including traditional
Bwiti therapies, various encounter and shock therapies, dream therapies –
even amateur therapies using ibogaine in uncontrolled doses, based on
self-help models.

What are the real issues here? One real issue is hard-core heroin and
cocaine addiction and the hard-core shamanic cure – a dramatic cure that
imparts psychic powers on the survivor. Another issue is talking to the
dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported. And
the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what about
this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
neurology and brain science.

Many of the chapters and papers in Ibogaine: The Proceedings are highly
technical, and deal with aspects of ibogaine’s pharmacological and
toxicological actions. Such include neurotransmitter activities, effects on
neuropeptides, metabolism, excretion, and locomotor activity. Of interest to
me however were the psychological papers studying ibogaine’s effects on
learning, memory, and EEG. EMMANUEL NAIVE’S chapter “Changes in Gene
Expression and Signal Transduction Following Ibogaine Treatment” presents
the startling fact that ibogaine can rewrite gene expression, which leads
directly to voltage and electrical regulation through intracellular
communication. Such cell cross-talk is connected to learning and the way
information is gated or processed into memory – something that is claimed to
be observable in real time by some ibogaine trippers.

The chapter “Returning to the Path: The Use of Iboga[ine] in Equatorial
African Ritual Context and the Binding of Time, Space, and Social
Relationship” by JAMES and RENATE FERNANDEZ is also important. JAMES wrote
the seminal study – Bwiti: An Ethnography of the Religious Imagination in
Africa (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PRESS, 1982). The Bwiti are the celebrated
African tribe that originally used the iboga plant in its occult ceremonies.
A cult within the Bwiti called the Fang is also mentioned. The Bwiti live
partly in this world, and partly in a mythical land contacted by iboga
initiates.

We also see reviews of LOTSOF’S NDA INTERNATIONAL AND ICASH (International
Coalition of Addiction Self-Help), a therapy based loosely on the work of
ALDOUS HUXLEY and DR TIMOTHY LEARY. DR DEBORAH MASH and her ibogaine clinics
in St Kitts in the Caribbean are described. Dr MASH is also famous at the
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI MEDICAL SCHOOL for performing a brain autopsy, seeking
clues to ibogaine’s inner workings.

ERIC TAUB’S ibogaine sessions are discussed. Here we see less therapy and
more shamanic ritual (similar to the ideals of the Bwiti). MYRON STOLAROFF
reports on west coast therapy scenes and regimens, and his book ‘The Secret
Chief’ is mentioned. From the Netherlands we hear about DASH/INTASH, THE
CENTER FOR ADDICTION RESEARCH AT ERASMUS UNIVERSITY and the work of NICO
ADRIAANS, a field researcher studying street addiction and therapeutic
communities. From Slovenia we hear about the work of MARKO RESINOVIC, who
founded the SLOVENIAN IBOGAINE FOUNDATION in 1995. Worth noting is the
pricing structure – $200.00 for a gram of ibogaine hydrochloride with
therapy, as opposed to several thousand dollars for the therapy of DR. MASH
or ERIC TAUB! Curious. The section on Denmark describes interesting scenes
alleged to have existed within CHRISTIANA, the anarchist “village” near
Copenhagen. A 44 kilogram supply of ibogaine hydrochloride connected to
CHRISTIANA was mentioned, circa 1981. This stash was code named “Indra” and
used to treat over 1000 advanced heroin junkies in CHRISTIANA village. We
hear of a gram of ibogaine hydrochloride going for $25 in CHRISTIANA….
Netherlands therapists worked with this same “Indra” supply for years,
pricing therapy at $600.00 to $1000.00. In the United Kingdom, thanks to
sales of The Ibogaine Story, and a video sponsored by the group CURES NOT
WARS and promoted by the GREEN political party, ibogaine therapy flourishes.
In Italy, GIORGIO SAMORINI’S work is mentioned, as are his forays into Bwiti
Initiations. In the Czech Republic, it costs $500 for treatment with
ibogaine. In France an actual ‘nganga’ – a Bwiti ritual guide – officiated
ibogaine therapy for $1000. (I published a photo of a Bwiti Nganga sorceror
in my PM&E journal, replete with loincloth and bone pointing, once upon a
time…)

In Africa, the home of the Bwiti and the iboga plant, we hear about DAN
LIEBERMAN, an ethnobotanist who was involved in arranging Bwiti ceremonies
in Gabon (before his death in 2000). This section of the book focusses on
medical and therapeutic subcultures – something of relevance to readers of
The Entheogen Review, because we are just that – a subculture.

Ibogaine: Proceedings also shows time lines of ibogaine-related discoveries,
and has a special index just for alkaloids titled “The Alkaloids, A
Cumulative Index of Titles, 1950 – 2001.” This includes references for
syntheses of the active compounds in ‘qat’, Ephedra, ergot, and even rare
amphibian spider-, and wasp-toxin alkaloids, as well as chemicals such as
piperidine and morphine. This special index is an interesting addition to
iboga alkaloid chemistry. A 10-page regular index rounds things off.

All in all, Ibogaine: Proceedings Of The First International Conference is a
solid addition to the literature. The book is a welcome return to ibogaine
science and resets ibogaine mythology with real world, modern practices –
both within the clinic and traditional Bwiti cults. This is a book that will
serve the ibogaine community and psychedelic researchers for years to come.
Unfortunately, the book is somewhat expensive, at about $80 soft-bound.
However, owing to the tremendous resources, networks, and histories pulled
together here, we have a winner worth the dough.

DR ALPER and DR GLICK, I toast you. The Bwiti thank you, the spirits of
iboga thank you, and patients thank you, Amen and peace – THOMAS LYTTLE

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 3:49:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/8/02 3:42:57 PM, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com writes:

BUT: I’m far more afraid of the medical supervision than I am the
ibogaine.

1)  Good medical supervision is non-intrusive.

2)  Don’t believe everything you read.

3)  I’m required to say that.

4)  The first time I tried ibogaine I was self-supervised.  But, that was
1962.  No one knew anything much about ibogaine and it was not a restricted
substance.  And, I was very hallucinogen experienced, young and healthy.

Howard

From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 3:43:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You’re probably right Howard–I’m obviously a “hands on” kind of
guy. Just the same, I *am* learning a few thing here.

BUT: I’m far more afraid of the medical supervision than I am the
ibogaine. I remember people telling me I needed a guide for my first
LSD trip. So I got one and the guy falls apart on me–I spend hours
and hours explaining that we really aren’t having a nuclear war. But
I let him fill up every glass in the house with water–what did it hurt?
I didn’t live there…

Francis

On 8 Apr 2002, at 10:58, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/8/02 10:16:06 AM, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

I don’t think Francis needs a detox – Ibogaine or otherwise?

I understand that.  Ibogaine is also proposed for its preventative
nature…I’m uptight because I’m about to use drugs or I’m uptight because
I’m not using drugs.  Or, for its significant psychotherapeutic aspects…or
well, out of curiosity as use is the only way Francis will understand what
ibogaine does, based on some of the questions I perceive him to be asking.
Of course he should only take ibogaine in a medically supervised environment.

If I were still in the ibogaine business I would consider treating francis at
a reduced or at zero rate provided he met medical safety intake criteria as
he represents a very good doorway to the heroin using community…the
marketplace.

If he comes back and raves about ibogaine, well Ibogaine is good stuff and if
he pans it, well ibogaine doesn’t work for everyone.

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 3:40:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/8/02 3:34:49 PM, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com writes:

Actually, Francis badly needs a detox–he’s just not sure for what.

That is the exact application that ibogaine is indicated for according to the
package insert.  “To be used when no one is sure of the indication for which
treatment is being requested or provided”.  Just kidding.  mmmm?

Howard

From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 3:34:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Actually, Francis badly needs a detox–he’s just not sure for what.

Francis

On 8 Apr 2002, at 15:26, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt wrote:

Howard

I don’t think Francis needs a detox – Ibogaine or otherwise?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 3:30:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/8/02 3:12:04 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:

All that being said, nothing quite beats taking it while totally sprung,
and then realizing a day later that HOLY FUCKING SHIT…  IT WORKED!  I
don’t believe this, but it worked, it worked!  It Worked!  There is a God!
Wow, too fucking cool, my habit is gone…

Well, that’s where the ibogaine miracle comes in Patrick.  Can’t beat that
experience!

Howard

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 3:01:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:58:48AM -0400], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:
|
| In a message dated 4/8/02 10:16:06 AM, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:
|
| >I don’t think Francis needs a detox – Ibogaine or otherwise?
|
| I understand that.  Ibogaine is also proposed for its preventative
| nature…I’m uptight because I’m about to use drugs or I’m uptight because
| I’m not using drugs.  Or, for its significant psychotherapeutic aspects…or
| well, out of curiosity as use is the only way Francis will understand what
| ibogaine does, based on some of the questions I perceive him to be asking.

Yeah, ibogaine is really cool as a headspace adjustment tool/spiritual
integrater.  It’s a highly versatile universal fulchrum kinda molecule.

All that being said, nothing quite beats taking it while totally sprung,
and then realizing a day later that HOLY FUCKING SHIT…  IT WORKED!  I
don’t believe this, but it worked, it worked!  It Worked!  There is a God!
Wow, too fucking cool, my habit is gone…

z00m,

Patrick

EVERYONE should take ibogaine.  It should be dumped from helicopters onto
inner cities.  It should be mixed into children’s vitamins.  It should be
thrown into the water supply, it should…   Oh, sorry, wrong track inside
my mind, lemme adjust it.

Have I mentioned my feelings about LSD lately…?  Just checking.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 2:42:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:13:03PM -0400], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| In a message dated 4/8/02 11:54:39 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
|
| >    What are the medical safety intake criteria?
|
| Hey Preston,
|
| In terms of st kitts, possibly Patrick can say.  If you go to
| www.ibogaine.org/manual.html and click on the discussion section, well you
| will get just that…discussion of safety issues.

Yeah, the manual is pretty neat, highly reasonable.  I don’t represent St.
Kitts, Healing Visions, or none of dat; but in general the main
prerequisite is that you have normal heart function (can pass a stress
test), most of the readings on an SMA-25 — or similar — are within the
normal ranges, and you have adequate liver function.  “Adequate” being
loosely defined as, ya need at least half your liver still alive and
kicking d00d.  Hep a, b, c, whatever, is more or less okay, provided that
it is not currently in an out of control state.

If you really give a shit what the HV screening is, you can always call
’em up, and request the info kit/forms.  And PRESTO!  You’ll find it looks
remarkably similar to the “intake forms” of half the ibogaine providers on
planet earth — who absolutely, positively, and without a doubt, did not
do what I just suggested and independently arrived at the same
methodology.  A STARTLING COINCIDENCE!

Not me

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 12:13:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/8/02 11:54:39 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

What are the medical safety intake criteria?

Hey Preston,

In terms of st kitts, possibly Patrick can say.  If you go to
www.ibogaine.org/manual.html and click on the discussion section, well you
will get just that…discussion of safety issues.

Howard

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 11:49:12 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If I were still in the ibogaine business I would consider treating francis
at
a reduced or at zero rate provided he met medical safety intake criteria as
he represents a very good doorway to the heroin using community…the
marketplace.<

Hey Howard,
What are the medical safety intake criteria?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox

In a message dated 4/8/02 10:16:06 AM, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

I don’t think Francis needs a detox – Ibogaine or otherwise?

I understand that.  Ibogaine is also proposed for its preventative
nature…I’m uptight because I’m about to use drugs or I’m uptight because
I’m not using drugs.  Or, for its significant psychotherapeutic
aspects…or
well, out of curiosity as use is the only way Francis will understand what
ibogaine does, based on some of the questions I perceive him to be asking.
Of course he should only take ibogaine in a medically supervised
environment.

If I were still in the ibogaine business I would consider treating francis
at
a reduced or at zero rate provided he met medical safety intake criteria
as
he represents a very good doorway to the heroin using community…the
marketplace.

If he comes back and raves about ibogaine, well Ibogaine is good stuff and
if
he pans it, well ibogaine doesn’t work for everyone.

Howard

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: April 8, 2002 at 11:47:53 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Congratulations Francis (whoever u are)!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com [mailto:ibogaine@heroinhelper.com]
Sent: 08 April 2002 08:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?

Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is less dangerous
than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine. For people
who need codeine, why not prescribe really small amounts of
heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no sense and
doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics to pre-meds; it
was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my first student
becoming a license physician.)

Francis

On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM, synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:

Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it answered my question.
What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and if they broke it down
from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that instead of turning it
into HCL? Is this some company making it right now or what. I’m lost.
What
I mean is what is the reason, why make this when you can get HCL from it
and what am I buying if I buy indra?

Without giving you a direct response… why does opium exist and morphine
exist when the manufacturer could go on to make heroin? I think indra is
the
equivalent of a trade name.  Indra can be reached at
<http://www.indra.dk/ukversion/ukindex.htm>.  You might ask them to
explain
themselves.

Howard

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Behold!
Date: April 8, 2002 at 11:32:02 AM EDT
To: “‘digital@phantom.com'” <digital@phantom.com>

PK, Hey

Tis great Art

How do you know those republican’s favourite albums etc??!!!

(Doing the coffee, or sumthin’ thing myslef right now – Good Luck huni

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 07 April 2002 18:52
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Behold!

I haven’t read my mail yet since yesterday, but I see a whole entire
Splatter of messages, which I will surely respond to as soon as I ingest a
buncha coffee and stuff.

In the interim, having a depressive, I cannot think, therefore I will
compile EVEN MORE Silicon Graphics libs under GIMP morning, witness what I
have done!  It’s Great Art…  or sumthin’

Scroll down to weapons:

http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpage
name=Links

Innit groovy!?!?!!?

PatricK

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 10:58:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/8/02 10:16:06 AM, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

I don’t think Francis needs a detox – Ibogaine or otherwise?

I understand that.  Ibogaine is also proposed for its preventative
nature…I’m uptight because I’m about to use drugs or I’m uptight because
I’m not using drugs.  Or, for its significant psychotherapeutic aspects…or
well, out of curiosity as use is the only way Francis will understand what
ibogaine does, based on some of the questions I perceive him to be asking.
Of course he should only take ibogaine in a medically supervised environment.

If I were still in the ibogaine business I would consider treating francis at
a reduced or at zero rate provided he met medical safety intake criteria as
he represents a very good doorway to the heroin using community…the
marketplace.

If he comes back and raves about ibogaine, well Ibogaine is good stuff and if
he pans it, well ibogaine doesn’t work for everyone.

Howard

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox
Date: April 8, 2002 at 10:26:52 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard

I don’t think Francis needs a detox – Ibogaine or otherwise?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 07 April 2002 00:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The Perfect Detox

Hi Francis,

OK, to everything you say.  My suggestion is one of these days check out
ibogaine if you like.  I anticipate you will either think it is great or not

or love it or hate it and I would be very interested to know how you feel
about it at that then?  It doesn’t matter whether your addicted to heroin or

not.  That utility is just another aspect of ibogaine effects.

Howard

In a message dated 4/6/02 5:26:36 PM, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com writes:

*You’re* perplexed?! I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Someone wrote asking if some treatments work better than others.
You wrote back saying that the answer is unknown and that
*possibly* (my emphasis) it depended upon the individual. E-mail is
an informal medium of communication and people dash off
answers. It sounds like we are in complete agreement and what
you *meant* to say was that the answer *did* depend upon the
individual. But there is a tendency among us, born in this modern
world with its philosophical relativism, to hold back and use
inaccurate words to be safe and non-offensive.

On the question of detox, you are making a mistake about my
opinions. I don’t see drug use as irrational, therefore, I don’t see a

need for detox. As Szasz puts it so well, “Drug addicts don’t want
drug treatment, they want drugs.” My interest in detox therapies is
based solely on the laws. The idea that heroin use destroys
peoples lives is anathema to me–I simply don’t understand it. It’s
like saying dirt kills people when they jump off tall buildings.

So my interest in detox methods is based on the lives that
*society* requires people to lead when their drug of choice is
heroin, and they use that drug to the point of addiction. If ibogaine
can allow *anyone* to happily walk about from heroin, that’s great.

I think you are *totally* wrong about “I am as addicted as I think I
am”. I do not define addiction in that way. Addiction is a *physical*
state. Kicking a large habit is *much* worse than kicking a small
habit. This is a key issue. I am *not* attacking ibogaine. I am trying

to *understand* ibogaine. As many people may know, I think that
rapid detox is fine for people with small habits but a *big* mistake
for people with large habits. In fact, so far, the only modality that I

have found that works well for people with large habits is
methadone.

When people write to me asking for detox advice, they almost
always tell me how much of what they are doing. I think this is
because they instinctively know what years of reading, listening,
and experiencing has taught me: the poison is in the dose. The
treatment for hearing loss is a hearing aid; the treatment for
deafness is sign-language. (I’m really on analogies today, huh?)

As to what I want to hear: I can’t answer that question and it even
seems to imply that I have some kind of negative agenda here–and
I don’t. I run a heroin site. I don’t give out information that I don’t
feel
comfortable about (at least not without going on and on about it). I
don’t feel comfortable about ibogaine because I’ve heard things that
are all over the board about it. Of course, I used to hear the worst
things in the world about methadone and now I’m one of it’s biggest
supporters. (BTW: I *still* hear terrible things about methadone.)

I’m sorry if I am coming off as hostile. I’m not. I’m not hostile
towards ibogaine or you (Lotso)–quite the contrary. I’m very
interested. But I’m not going to run out and get addicted to heroin
just so I can try ibogaine and see if it works. Jim Hogshire wrote a
great piece a long time back (in PAGG) about placebos. A valium
in your pocket is almost as good as one in your body. But stress
and intense heroin withdrawal are very different.

If this list is not meant to discuss these kinds of issues, I’m sorry
and I’ll go away quietly. You and everyone else have my best
wishes.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] I’d Love to Get High, Howard…
Date: April 8, 2002 at 10:26:49 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s legal here in England, but they are about to schedule it and therefore
make it a ‘controlled drug’ as soon as they can…

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com [mailto:ibogaine@heroinhelper.com]
Sent: 07 April 2002 01:08
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] I’d Love to Get High, Howard…

That sounds like a good idea, but I wouldn’t do it now because it’s
illegal. I don’t even forget to use my turn signal when driving, such
is the fear that I have of jail. Liberty or death–and I mean that.

Am I correct that ibogaine is a psychedelic? When I was 17 (like
the Sinatra songs but not so many girls who lived up the stairs) I
was *way* into LSD and any other drug that acted like that
(including marijuana, which to my surprise most people do not
perceive that way). All this is to say that I would *like* to try the
drug. Are there countries where it is legal? Even by a prescription?

Another question I have is about cost. What I have heard regarding
ibogaine detoxes is that they are about the same as Antagonist
Rapid Detoxs: $7000. Is the *drug* that expensive or is most of
that the *treatment*. Wow. It just occurred to me that that would
make a great addition to my site: detox costs (like I don’t have
about 100 “ideas” that I don’t have time to write).

Francis

On 6 Apr 2002, at 18:29, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

Hi Francis,

OK, to everything you say.  My suggestion is one of these days check out
ibogaine if you like.  I anticipate you will either think it is great or
not
or love it or hate it and I would be very interested to know how you feel
about it at that then?  It doesn’t matter whether your addicted to heroin
or
not.  That utility is just another aspect of ibogaine effects.

Howard

From: ibogaine@heroinhelper.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: April 8, 2002 at 3:19:24 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is less dangerous
than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine. For people
who need codeine, why not prescribe really small amounts of
heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no sense and
doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics to pre-meds; it
was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my first student
becoming a license physician.)

Francis

On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM, synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:

Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it answered my question.
What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and if they broke it down
from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that instead of turning it
into HCL? Is this some company making it right now or what. I’m lost. What
I mean is what is the reason, why make this when you can get HCL from it
and what am I buying if I buy indra?

Without giving you a direct response… why does opium exist and morphine
exist when the manufacturer could go on to make heroin? I think indra is the
equivalent of a trade name.  Indra can be reached at
<http://www.indra.dk/ukversion/ukindex.htm>.  You might ask them to explain
themselves.

Howard

From: *selah* <soma@dorsai.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] the Ibogaine experience
Date: April 8, 2002 at 1:04:09 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I deleted the post but I think it was Preston who was wondering
about why no withdrawal symptoms were felt (by some people) and if
the experience was a distraction.

It would seem that for some people that is basically what it amounts
to — a very long total distraction.

Others seem to go to a deeper level and experience the Spirit/Entity
that Gamma spoke of.  A spiritual renewal takes place and a person
walks away feeling no desire for [fill in the blank].

I’ve seen this happen with even one of the shortest-acting
Psychedelics.

But for people who don’t experience a spiritual renewal, the
distraction wears off.  The experience becomes foggy in the mind …
stress happens …. the body craves …  The “then what?” is the big
question.

There are reasons people want to do opiates, etc.  It seems to be a
combination of biochemical & social.  A person has to change the
situation that got him/her into it in the first place.

Mary

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: April 7, 2002 at 11:20:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM, synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:

Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it answered my question.
What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and if they broke it down
from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that instead of turning it
into HCL? Is this some company making it right now or what. I’m lost. What
I mean is what is the reason, why make this when you can get HCL from it
and what am I buying if I buy indra?

Without giving you a direct response… why does opium exist and morphine
exist when the manufacturer could go on to make heroin? I think indra is the
equivalent of a trade name.  Indra can be reached at
<http://www.indra.dk/ukversion/ukindex.htm>.  You might ask them to explain
themselves.

Howard

From: Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: April 7, 2002 at 10:34:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it answered my question. What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and if they broke it down from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that instead of turning it into HCL? Is this some company making it right now or what. I’m lost. What I mean is what is the reason, why make this when you can get HCL from it and what am I buying if I buy indra?
thank you
_Synergy_
ibogaine@heroinhelper.com wrote:
It sounds to me like Indra is like opium and the HCl is like
morphine. China white and black tar heroin are both the same
thing: heroin. One can have 80% pure black tar heroin and 3% pure
“china white power “heroin”. Does anyone with more (that is to
say, “any”) information (than I do) about this question. I think the
poster is confused about the tar/powder part of the question–not
necessarily ibogaine part. Please let me know. Thanks.

Francis.

On 6 Apr 2002, at 17:17, Gamma wrote:

> a rough comparison would be:
>
> Indra = Black Tar Heroin
>
> HCL = 99.9% pure China White
>
> from what I understand, the Indra potency varies from batch to batch, while
> pure HCL is consistant (should be).
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – online filing with TurboTax

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital>
Subject: Aha! The negative methadone rant type diatribe thing collection
Date: April 7, 2002 at 3:27:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Okay found it.  This was, “it’s 3am and I’m feeling cranky and gonna Let
it All Out” type material.  Before putting it anyplace, I should prolly
take a second pass through it.

Me

Okay . . .

It has never been my intent to disrespect people who are on methadone.  To
the best of my knowledge I haven’t done this; if somehow my opinion,
words, attitude, whatever, has been interpreted in this way — sorry.

To rephrase what I said before, and reiterate what Dave and Dana both
said: Methadone PROGRAMS blow dead goats.  They suck.  Period.

There are a lotta different sides to alla this, but to compress it down as
well as I can right now; methadone maintenance is extremely dehumanizing.

Where’s the methadone clinic?  Well, the one that used to be 5 blocks from
where I live is closed, because obviously junkies rape people, steal shit,
and prolly eat small children; even if they don’t, just the fact that
they’re on your block, is bringing down property values, so get ’em the
fuck outta there.  Next stop 125th & Park.  Where’s the methadone clinic?
Oh, you can’t miss it, just go up the street, make a right at the
condemned building, down the alley, it’s right between that mountain of
garbage and the morgue.  You get to come to this dump every fucking day,
from now until forever.

You have a disease, methadone is just like insulin for diabetics, you need
to take your medication forever and ever, in fact methadone is GOOD for
you, we have studies highly similar to the ones funded in the 40’s and
50’s by cigarette companies, that actually PROVE that methadone is good for
you, enhances your life, and should be one of the four basic food groups.

I just wanna be on like 30mg to stabilize.  Sorry, we START you on 70mg,
there use