Ibogaine List Archives – 2002-11

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 5:32:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston,

Sorry for the post, you missed my point entirely.

A couple comments; Yes I am feeling just fine, no I am
not “feeling irritable” and no-thanks, I don’t feel
like drugging myself (just for today <g>). Other than
that my comments had little to do with cats – oh and
FYI I have spent thousands on saving animals, my dog
is fixed, her sister unfortunately was also fixed by
the IN-Humane society while both of them were sick,
she died 36 hours after I got her (she “only” had a
little kennel cough… (sure she did). And then there
are my last 9 cats which were all rescues, all had
their working parts broken, and then there were birds,
snakes, whatever… You are talking to someone who
feels bad for yeast when I bake bread, who catches
bugs/lizards in the house to let them go, who has a
hard time weeding the garden, who thinks the practice
of having a “live” (which means dead) X-Mas tree is a
barbaric practice… Which also has nothing to do with
the point I was trying to make. OH, and I reserve the
right to do any thing I so choose including purchasing
a dog/cat/exotic… from a for-profit type
person/entity or to breed animals myself, if I so
choose and will do so without the slightest bit of
guilt that somewhere in NYC (or wherever) there is a
pet going to die all because I didn’t rescue it – all
my fault… And that right there is my point, or part
of it, lay your guilt somewhere else – and I don’t
give a rats ass what kind of guilt it is, if it is
“guilt” (or fear) and I should do whatever,
because…, well it puts me off whatever point you
were trying to make cause that is what I hear and it
is hard for me to get past that  – which is kind of my
point. The “finish your food, there are starving
children in Biafra” (my response, “here is a stamp,
send it to them”) just isn’t something I respond to
very well.

Brett
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Usually when I want to share differences of
opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when
they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell
then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are
and
how immoral they are acting. <

Writing here in lotsa fucking pain, I have zero
patience tonight. What the hell are you talking
about Brett? I never called Dana stupid, nor
immoral, not once. I did say he was using silly
reasoning by writing the cats “don’t mature right”
and still will point out that I personally think
that fixing the cats is the way to go.
I’ve apparently touched a nerve, but it wasn’t I
guess Dana’s. He’s a friend of mine. I figure I’m
able to talk to Dana as a friend, not pussyfoot
around with him.

I guess just take it a little personally when
people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it
is
about fixing a cat/dog. <

yaaaa, groovy, tell it to all the cats sitting in
the shelter here in NYC who are facinig death cause
some people don’t like to hear about how fixing the
cats might solve that problem. Can’t say I remember
that I told Dana to do anything, but did offer to
help him get his cats fixed if he wanted, and why he
might want to and suggested he call me IF HE DOES.

To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.<

Again, what the hell are you talking about, or are
you simply feeling as shitty as I this evening?

I would suggest that if you have something for Dana
or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they
are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es)
and
knowledge (according to you at least).<

again, did you even read my note, or simply decide
to rant at me cause yer feeling irritable? I did
explain why I think it would be better to get the
cats fixed in a rational tone, in both the note
“don’t mature right’ and the “cats and questions”
note. And after all yer run ins with other people
about yer animals, I guess I see why yer a bit
sensative to the issue.

Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an
ass-hole).<

again, what the hell are you talking about? I feel
like Dana wasn’t entire honest with me, and
explained why I asked him my original question. How
do you figure that’s “holier than thou?”

How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots
of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<

So yer suggesting that because “lots of ’em are
going to die,” I should shut the hell up and not
worry about those a friend of mine shares his home
with? Hmmmm. Nope, sorry, don’t think I’ll think
that way, thanks very much.
The final bit about Sara Lee crap is completely
irrelevent as people can make the choice to eat/not
eat- cats don’t get the choice to fix/mate or not,
but we as people can help keep more from that
shelter death row by promoting “fixing” them. I
don’t recall ever calling Dana any names. I also
noted that Dana told me something to my face that
was apparently not true, which pissed me off, and I
noted it publicly since he posted a notice offering
kittens to anyone who’d call I guess, which wasn’t
what he told me to my face. But I didn’t ever call
Dana any names, and I did offer help if and when he
wants it, so Brett, go smoke a fatty please and
chill out.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature
right?

Preston

Usually when I want to share differences of
opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when
they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell
then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than
they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are
and
how immoral they are acting.

I guess just take it a little personally when
people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it
is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed
(dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never
mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle
of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There
were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would
chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on
the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am
sure
you can find any number of other books out there
with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this
“animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet
outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to
have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage –
cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I
guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.

I would suggest that if you have something for
Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you
don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they
are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es)
and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction
of
course, not that you in particular are an
ass-hole).

I don’t know if there is something particular with
the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes,
there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs
later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured
before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it?
Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt
unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals
in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are
lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are
people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and
sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people
out
there who should get fixed and others who should
not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous
substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in
an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) –
but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a
condom?.

http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm

Has some info from one recient study.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they
don’t
mature right. <

This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is
he
serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what?
None
of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been?
How
many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a
loving
human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the
chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch
that
pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while
to
finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom
all
last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the
unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss
Dana,
and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But
that
said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no
trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the
other
cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering
to
people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather
after
status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none
of
those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living
breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo

I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if
it
would contribute to less
suffering?  How is that different than the
methadone
clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make
ibogaine
legal?  Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
ibogaine research?  I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
included.  That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500

Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in
a
way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
know
any more about computers, but I understand why
they’re
different.

Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just
a
guess.

Hey all of you who are going to all the
ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to
be
at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little
crazy.

Carla B

The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats
that
refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them
with
the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with
this
black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them
fixed.

Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got
a
response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites
are
more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they
don’t
mature right.

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

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From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 7:32:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This topic is probably getting way off track but I have to agree with
Preston.  There are far too many unwanted and neglected animals out there
and yes everyone can justify it by saying its part of life and what about
people and all the other bad things out there but surely we can all do a
little bit and protect those who can’t speak for themselves, namely animals.
They all have their own personalities, be it pedigree sold for lots of money
or the bitsa down the pound that loves you just for giving him a home??
Cats are well known for producing litter after litter of kittens that end up
with no homes and will live wild or get dumped etc which is so cruel.  If
all owners were more responsible and had their animals fixed it would
certainly cut down on the unwanted problem.  In some places you can even get
funding to get your cat or dog fixed and I know the SPCA make it a condition
and they pay for it.   Get real, the worlds got enough crap without creating
more.   Allison
PS Its been proved that the old wives tale of letting cats and dogs mature
or have young before they are fixed is a myth these days.  Progress has
taken over and that idea is well gone.    I’ve seen lots of both sides and
there is no difference.  Brett said a dog will get fat, which applies
usually to females and only if their diet is not watched or they don’t get
exercise and what if they do put on some weight, in my opinion thats better
than having a belly full of unwanted pups and then carrying excess weight.
—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 30 November 2002 11:06
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?

Preston

Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.

I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.

I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).

I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.

http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm

Has some info from one recient study.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right. <

This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been? How
many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the
chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the
unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no
trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living
breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo

I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
would contribute to less
suffering?  How is that different than the methadone
clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
legal?  Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
ibogaine research?  I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
included.  That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500

Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a
way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
know
any more about computers, but I understand why
they’re
different.

Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
guess.

Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little
crazy.

Carla B

The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.

Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right.

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 3:16:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My I.Q happens to be 204.

What fantastic luck!

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 1:50:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<

Really, thinking more about this Brett, this is ridiculous, or so I personally find. There’s tons of people sitting in jail for using currently illicit drugs. Lots more use who aren’t in jail but face the threat. Oh well, I guess some are simply going to go to jail and I should accept it, since that’s just the way it is, at least, by using the above reasoning. No need to voice an opinion about it, nor work to change the situation. Hell, for that matter, why push ibogaine on everyone? Just accept that there’s people who like using heroin, and will continue to do so. Why all the ibogaine instead of dope stuff? What’s the point? I mean, people are just going to use heroin anyway, so why bother?
Hmmm.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: preston peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 1:41 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?

>Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting. <

Writing here in lotsa fucking pain, I have zero patience tonight. What the hell are you talking about Brett? I never called Dana stupid, nor immoral, not once. I did say he was using silly reasoning by writing the cats “don’t mature right” and still will point out that I personally think that fixing the cats is the way to go.
I’ve apparently touched a nerve, but it wasn’t I guess Dana’s. He’s a friend of mine. I figure I’m able to talk to Dana as a friend, not pussyfoot around with him.

>I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. <

yaaaa, groovy, tell it to all the cats sitting in the shelter here in NYC who are facinig death cause some people don’t like to hear about how fixing the cats might solve that problem. Can’t say I remember that I told Dana to do anything, but did offer to help him get his cats fixed if he wanted, and why he might want to and suggested he call me IF HE DOES.

>To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.<

Again, what the hell are you talking about, or are you simply feeling as shitty as I this evening?

>I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least).<

again, did you even read my note, or simply decide to rant at me cause yer feeling irritable? I did explain why I think it would be better to get the cats fixed in a rational tone, in both the note “don’t mature right’ and the “cats and questions” note. And after all yer run ins with other people about yer animals, I guess I see why yer a bit sensative to the issue.

>Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).<

again, what the hell are you talking about? I feel like Dana wasn’t entire honest with me, and explained why I asked him my original question. How do you figure that’s “holier than thou?”

>How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<

So yer suggesting that because “lots of ’em are going to die,” I should shut the hell up and not worry about those a friend of mine shares his home with? Hmmmm. Nope, sorry, don’t think I’ll think that way, thanks very much.
The final bit about Sara Lee crap is completely irrelevent as people can make the choice to eat/not eat- cats don’t get the choice to fix/mate or not, but we as people can help keep more from that shelter death row by promoting “fixing” them. I don’t recall ever calling Dana any names. I also noted that Dana told me something to my face that was apparently not true, which pissed me off, and I noted it publicly since he posted a notice offering kittens to anyone who’d call I guess, which wasn’t what he told me to my face. But I didn’t ever call Dana any names, and I did offer help if and when he wants it, so Brett, go smoke a fatty please and chill out.
Peace,
Preston

 

 

—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?

Preston

Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.

I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.

I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).

I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.

http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm

Has some info from one recient study.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
> have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right. <
>
> This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
> recommending this, or is
> someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
> serious?”
>     “They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
> of my fixed cats seem to
> have had any problems maturing “right.”
> And how many litters have there already been? How
> many siamese kittens/cats
> are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
> human to take them home
> and share a place with them, but won’t get the
> chance because Dana thinks it
> too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
> making money off breeding
> yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
> pussy and put it in a box
> and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
> finally catch the one
> completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
> last winter, until I
> could finally get up the nerve to chase the
> unwilling cat around, but I did
> it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
>     Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
> and as Sandy notes, (and
> wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
> Sandy) I too can really
> only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
> said, V and I are still
> willing to come over and catch them for you, no
> trouble, no fees. We’ve
> gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
> cats that aren’t siamese
> cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
> people who don’t stike me
> as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
> status symbols. “Oh looook
> at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
> those boring other cats
> for meee.” How much do you sell these living
> breathing thinking creatures
> for Dana?
>     “Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
> Peace,
> Preston
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: booker w
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
>
>
> I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
> breeding pair of siamese is
> worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
> would contribute to less
> suffering?  How is that different than the methadone
> clinics who want to
> keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
> legal?  Or Ms. Mash
> wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
> ibogaine research?  I’m
> afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
> included.  That’s why we
> really can only work on ourselves first.
> Sandy Watson
> >From: Dana Beal
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
> >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
> >
> >>Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
> anyone
> >>who knows anything about computers said it in a
> way
> >>that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
> know
> >>any more about computers, but I understand why
> they’re
> >>different.
> >>
> >>Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
> guess.
> >>
> >>Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
> >>conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
> at
> >>Seattle, but the admission price is a little
> crazy.
> >>
> >>Carla B
> >>
> >
> >The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
> refuse to go. I
> >mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
> the box and try
> >to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
> black half-pint
> >called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
> breeding pair of
> >Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
> >
> >Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
> response from
> >Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
> never any problem
> >placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
> more of a
> >challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
> mature and have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right.
> >
> >Dana/cnw
> >
> >Dana/cnw
>
>
>
> Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com
> VirusScan Online
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 1:41:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting. <

Writing here in lotsa fucking pain, I have zero patience tonight. What the hell are you talking about Brett? I never called Dana stupid, nor immoral, not once. I did say he was using silly reasoning by writing the cats “don’t mature right” and still will point out that I personally think that fixing the cats is the way to go.
I’ve apparently touched a nerve, but it wasn’t I guess Dana’s. He’s a friend of mine. I figure I’m able to talk to Dana as a friend, not pussyfoot around with him.

>I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. <

yaaaa, groovy, tell it to all the cats sitting in the shelter here in NYC who are facinig death cause some people don’t like to hear about how fixing the cats might solve that problem. Can’t say I remember that I told Dana to do anything, but did offer to help him get his cats fixed if he wanted, and why he might want to and suggested he call me IF HE DOES.

>To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.<

Again, what the hell are you talking about, or are you simply feeling as shitty as I this evening?

>I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least).<

again, did you even read my note, or simply decide to rant at me cause yer feeling irritable? I did explain why I think it would be better to get the cats fixed in a rational tone, in both the note “don’t mature right’ and the “cats and questions” note. And after all yer run ins with other people about yer animals, I guess I see why yer a bit sensative to the issue.

>Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).<

again, what the hell are you talking about? I feel like Dana wasn’t entire honest with me, and explained why I asked him my original question. How do you figure that’s “holier than thou?”

>How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<

So yer suggesting that because “lots of ’em are going to die,” I should shut the hell up and not worry about those a friend of mine shares his home with? Hmmmm. Nope, sorry, don’t think I’ll think that way, thanks very much.
The final bit about Sara Lee crap is completely irrelevent as people can make the choice to eat/not eat- cats don’t get the choice to fix/mate or not, but we as people can help keep more from that shelter death row by promoting “fixing” them. I don’t recall ever calling Dana any names. I also noted that Dana told me something to my face that was apparently not true, which pissed me off, and I noted it publicly since he posted a notice offering kittens to anyone who’d call I guess, which wasn’t what he told me to my face. But I didn’t ever call Dana any names, and I did offer help if and when he wants it, so Brett, go smoke a fatty please and chill out.
Peace,
Preston

 

 

—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?

Preston

Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.

I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.

I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).

I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.

http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm

Has some info from one recient study.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
> have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right. <
>
> This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
> recommending this, or is
> someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
> serious?”
>     “They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
> of my fixed cats seem to
> have had any problems maturing “right.”
> And how many litters have there already been? How
> many siamese kittens/cats
> are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
> human to take them home
> and share a place with them, but won’t get the
> chance because Dana thinks it
> too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
> making money off breeding
> yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
> pussy and put it in a box
> and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
> finally catch the one
> completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
> last winter, until I
> could finally get up the nerve to chase the
> unwilling cat around, but I did
> it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
>     Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
> and as Sandy notes, (and
> wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
> Sandy) I too can really
> only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
> said, V and I are still
> willing to come over and catch them for you, no
> trouble, no fees. We’ve
> gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
> cats that aren’t siamese
> cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
> people who don’t stike me
> as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
> status symbols. “Oh looook
> at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
> those boring other cats
> for meee.” How much do you sell these living
> breathing thinking creatures
> for Dana?
>     “Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
> Peace,
> Preston
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: booker w
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
>
>
> I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
> breeding pair of siamese is
> worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
> would contribute to less
> suffering?  How is that different than the methadone
> clinics who want to
> keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
> legal?  Or Ms. Mash
> wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
> ibogaine research?  I’m
> afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
> included.  That’s why we
> really can only work on ourselves first.
> Sandy Watson
> >From: Dana Beal
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
> >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
> >
> >>Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
> anyone
> >>who knows anything about computers said it in a
> way
> >>that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
> know
> >>any more about computers, but I understand why
> they’re
> >>different.
> >>
> >>Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
> guess.
> >>
> >>Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
> >>conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
> at
> >>Seattle, but the admission price is a little
> crazy.
> >>
> >>Carla B
> >>
> >
> >The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
> refuse to go. I
> >mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
> the box and try
> >to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
> black half-pint
> >called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
> breeding pair of
> >Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
> >
> >Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
> response from
> >Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
> never any problem
> >placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
> more of a
> >challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
> mature and have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right.
> >
> >Dana/cnw
> >
> >Dana/cnw
>
>
>
> Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com
> VirusScan Online
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 1:20:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You sound like a burn-out,idoitic,moronic dolt that has an I.Q of my shoe size (11)
so if you want to intellectually spar sometime I will put you in your proper place.
My I.Q happens to be 204.

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 29, 2002 at 5:06:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston

Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.

I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.

I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).

I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.

http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm

Has some info from one recient study.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right. <

This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been? How
many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the
chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the
unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no
trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living
breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo

I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
would contribute to less
suffering?  How is that different than the methadone
clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
legal?  Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
ibogaine research?  I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
included.  That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500

Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a
way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
know
any more about computers, but I understand why
they’re
different.

Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
guess.

Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little
crazy.

Carla B

The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.

Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right.

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com
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Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] SF Conference Reception on the 29th?
Date: November 28, 2002 at 5:56:18 PM EST
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OK, I have watched and waited, and still no announcement has been made as to
when/where the reception for the SF conference is going to be. It’s still
listed as TBA at http://www.ibogaine.org/sfforum.html . Is the reception
going to happen or not?

– jt

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] happy thanksgiving
Date: November 28, 2002 at 1:30:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ALthough I think most are on planes by now and gone, I wanted to wish everyone a happy holiday and I will be at SF. So will a few more on this list who may not be using their handles 😉

Peace to all and ibogaine under everyone’s christmas tree. That may be premature, but next year it’s something to try for 🙂
Curtis

_______________________________________________________
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Enroll for NIIT SWIFT Jyoti till 2nd December for only Rs. 749
and get free Indian Languages Office software worth Rs. 2500.
For details contact your nearest NIIT centre, SWIFT Point
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Hallucinogens and redemption.
Date: November 28, 2002 at 10:39:12 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Howard, everybody,

We had an article in the Users Voice about 7 months ago, which documented a conversation we had with Rabbi Schacter, part of Jewish Renewal and also instrumental in setting up the Tikkun project. He spoke about REDEMPTION and psychedelics too; it was very good. Inspirational and deep and healing
Just said i’d mention it
Nadelmann told us about him
Hope all is well in your yard(s)
Hugs xox
Andria Mordaunt
Editor: Users Voice
C/O Drugscope, 32-36 Loman Street
London, SE1 OEE, U.K

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 14 November 2002 16:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Hallucinogens and redemption.


J Psychoactive Drugs 2002 Jul-Sep;34(3):239-48  Related Articles, Links

Hallucinogens and redemption.
de Rios MD, Grob CS, Baker JR.
Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Human Behavior, University of
Califomia, Irvine, USA.
This article examines drug substitution with regard to hallucinogens
(ayahuasca, ibogaine, peyote and LSD) set within the concept of redemption.
The model examines both religious and secular approaches to the contemporary
use of hallucinogens in drug substitution, both by scientists and in
religious settings worldwide. The redemptive model posits that the proper use
of one psychoactive substance within a spiritual or clinical context helps to
free an individual >from the adverse effects of their addiction to another
substance and thus restores them as functioning members of their community or
group. Data is drawn from the U.S., Brazil, Peru, and West Africa. Two
principle mechanisms for this are proposed: the psychological mechanism of
suggestibility is examined in terms of the individual reaching abstinence
goals from addictive substances such as alcohol and opiates.
Neurophysiological and neurochemical mechanisms to understand the efficacy of
such substitution are highlighted from ongoing research on hallucinogens.
Research by two of the authors with the Unaio do Vegetal (UDV) Church in
Brazil is examined in terms of the model.
NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in respect of viruses that may have been transmitted

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 28, 2002 at 10:29:16 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Co-Counselling if U can find the network in yr town: someone U call to share
with (however many times U both decide together) U talk for 15, then give
feedback for 5, and then U do the same for them.

Psychotherapy, if U can find someone willing to do it on cheap basis

Since U have access to the net, why not start a search there.

Randy, i think our prob is more of a case of having too many options (rather
than not enough) though, of course, waiting lists are a trip!!

I’m still waiting for ‘therapy’ from our ‘socialised’ system of medicine…
18 months later. London has become like NYC was, is? unless u have just slit
yr risks, or U say U r about to, forget getting the help U need! OR be
prepared to wait for a long time.

Good Luck; U might be far more blessed in this area than I; my nickname is
Ms Hugelyproud, (but I’m funked if I know what of!!)

Hugs

—–Original Message—–
From: Randy Hencken [mailto:randyhencken@hotmail.com]
Sent: 21 November 2002 20:49
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox

What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to
me?

I’ll chime in here, although I am starting to feel like some kind of SMART
recovery bible thumper, just kidding (check out their web site at
www.smartrecovery.org or burn in … oops, bible thumping).  I have been
clean
off methadone, heroin and cocaine for almost 1.5 years.  After I did the
ibogaine I attended Smart meetings once a week for about three months.  I
attended a few more meetings over the next couple months, and then I
“graduated” from the program.  I had made a change in my life and the urges
to use dope had subsided.  Recently I attended a smart recovery coordinators

conference and started a meeting here in San Diego on Tuesday nights.  I
volunteer my time there because I like SMART and I like helping people.

Most people who quit addictive behaviors simply quit, without going to
rehabs and 12-step meetings.  SMART, essentially, is a guideline teaching
skills that those other people discovered on their own.  As opposed to most
treatments, we do not try to force square pegs through circular holes. SMART

is an acronym for Self Management And Recovery Training.  This means it is a

program about taking care of you.  We do not have sponsors, we realize that
only you are responsible for you.  We don’t have arbitrary steps for you to
follow.  We do have a 4 point program: 1) Finding and maintaining the
motivation to change your addictive behavior. 2) Learning how to cope with
urges and cravings. 3) Problem solving and lastly 4) life style balance /
lifestyle change.

As you may have noticed I refer to addiction as addictive behavior and not
as a disease.  Smart recovery doesn’t buy into the disease theory.  We view
addiction as a maladaptive behavior.   You probably started using your
substance because it was fun or benefited you in some positive way; now
you’re stuck with a bad habit.  You learned your addiction and you can
unlearn it. SMART is about empowerment not powerlessness.

We discourage labeling yourself as an addict/alcoholic.  We believe that you

will follow your thoughts or you will act the way you think about yourself.

If you label yourself then you are setting yourself up for failure or
relapse.

We don’t count days, because we know how damaging it can be to lose all
those days when you have a lapse.  Instead if you lapse come to a meeting
and talk about it and hopefully you will lapse less frequently.  It is
better to have had two lapses in two years then to be back at step one
because of a little lapse.

SMART is based on rational thought and scientific study.  The program is
willing to change as science changes.  SMART is a non-profit organization,
so no one is trying to get rich off of your difficulties.

Some of the tools we work with in SMART are: rational emotive behavioral
therapy (REBT), cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), destructive self talk
awareness and refusal method (DISARM, which is our version of addictive
voice recognition technique (AVRT) which was coined and is owned by Rational

Recovery), disputing irrational beliefs (DIB’s) and there are many more.  We

try to do actual work at a meeting.

We don’t sit around being gloomy and telling war stories.  We don’t linger
in the past.  SMART is about creating a better future.

If there aren’t meetings near you, start one.  It doesn’t take a
professional.  All you need to do is educate yourself about the philosophies

of SMART.  You can find these ideas in their manual, on the web and in their

recommended readings.  We need more SMART meetings.  We need to create a
voice as loud as the twelve stepper’s voice.  People in the throws of
addiction don’t know that we exist.  They are busy learning harmful dogma
that keeps them wrapped up in their addiction.  If you have time and you are

tired of the twelve steps get involved in SMART.  Help out your neighbors.

Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the philosophies you

will be headed in the right direction.  There is a lot more to SMART than
what I’ve mentioned here.

Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone asks a
similar question.

Is ibogaine a proper noun?  Should I spell it with a capitol I?

Randy Hencken

_________________________________________________________________
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intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
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attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 27, 2002 at 8:52:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right. <

This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been? How many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana, and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But that said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the other cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering to people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather after status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo

I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it would contribute to less
suffering?  How is that different than the methadone clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine legal?  Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about ibogaine research?  I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me included.  That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500

Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know
any more about computers, but I understand why they’re
different.

Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.

Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.

Carla B

The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.

Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right.

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 27, 2002 at 2:29:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a breeding pair of siamese is worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it would contribute to less suffering?  How is that different than the methadone clinics who want to keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine legal?  Or Ms. Mash wanting to keep all the glory and patents about ibogaine research?  I’m afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me included.  That’s why we really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson

>From: Dana Beal

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo

>Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500

>

>>Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone

>>who knows anything about computers said it in a way

>>that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know

>>any more about computers, but I understand why they’re

>>different.

>>

>>Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.

>>

>>Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine

>>conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at

>>Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.

>>

>>Carla B

>>

>

>The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that refuse to go. I

>mean, cats that hide when you come after them with the box and try

>to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this black half-pint

>called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a breeding pair of

>Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.

>

>Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a response from

>Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s never any problem

>placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are more of a

>challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one

>litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right.

>

>Dana/cnw

>

>Dana/cnw

Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference PLUS
Date: November 27, 2002 at 11:14:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That sunk it, I’m stealing my dad’s credit card and going

The S.F. forum is a much better deal than Seattle (all my time at the
workshop is going to Patrick and Deborah, I’m just the moderator)
S.F. is a real Ibogaine forum, and there’s a van going straight to
Seattle. We’ll probably miss the very beginning of Seattle, but the
S.F. thing is 1/8th the price(!) and Seattle is not mostly about
Ibogaine anyway. We’re also doing something for locals at another
location at 6:30 pm –just after the HRC workshop– before I make the
mad dash back to S.F. to catch my flight to NYC, where I leave the
next day to Paris.

Here’s 2 emails, one about S.F., one about this separate meeting in Seattle:

At 3:32 PM -0800 11/23/02, steve e. wrote:
From: “steve e.” <brazilsteve@hotmail.com>
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
Bcc:
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Nov 2002 23:32:57.0025 (UTC)
FILETIME=[A71A6B10:01C29348]
Subject: [IBOGAINE] First San Francisco Ibogaine Forum
Sender: ibogaine-admin@lists.calyx.nl
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X-Original-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:32:56 -0800
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:32:56 -0800
Status:

Please forward to your interested contacts / appropriate forums and
email lists

San Francisco Ibogaine Forum:
New Directions in Treatment

This one-day event will gather experts and practitioners for a
unique opportunity to discuss the progress and promise of the use of
Ibogaine in the treatment of addiction.

The event is open to the general public, and is intended to be of
interest to a broad range of people, including harm reduction
advocates, addicts, students, teachers, therapists, healers,
parents, and those with loved ones who need help.

IBOGAINE is a powerful natural medicine derived from the West
African shrub T. iboga, which has been used by the Bwiti for
countless years as a sacred plant teacher. Extensively studied for
its pharmacological effects since the 1930’s, much more recently the
alkaloid was shown to be uniquely effective for addiction treatment:
not only does the user receive powerful visions and insights about
the nature and causes of their addiction but are also relieved of
the physical urge to use again, often after a single treatment! The
effect is best-studied in the case of opiates, and shows great
promise in the treatment of other addictions as well.

Many have experienced the pain of loss due to addiction. Hard drugs
disrupt and affect millions of lives daily in every part of the
world. Being an addict often means living without hope or support,
the things they most desperately need.

A plant-based medicine with extraordinary power works in a manner
which acts upon the spiritual, mental and physical being, breaking
the chains of addiction.

We welcome you to join this extraordinary panel of experts for one
day in San Francisco:

Saturday November 30, 2002
9AM to 6PM
Thomas Starr King Auditorium
First Unitarian Univeralist Church & Center
1187 Franklin St. at Geary
San Francisco

only $35 at the door ($25 advance)
For reservations, call 415-567-0873

Participants

Deborah C. Mash, Ph.D. (Professor, Univ. of Miami Med School)
Dana Beal (Cures-Not-Wars)
Patrick K. Kroupa (Lord Digital, Mindvox)
Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld, MD (Dr. Hip)
Ed Rosenthal (Author & Activist)
Chris Conrad (Author & Activist)
Nelson Comerci, L.Ac. (Acupuncturist, Iboga Practitioner)

Others to be announced

We welcome your participation and urge you to place this unique
event on your calendar

FOR MORE GENERAL INFORMATION ON IBOGAINE:

Links


http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ibogaine/ibogaine.shtml
http://www.cures-not-wars.org/links.html

At 9:51 PM -0800 11/26/02, Laurie Mischley wrote:
From: “Laurie Mischley” <lauriemischley@attbi.com>
To: “‘Dana Beal'” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: RE: Seattle trip
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:51:13 -0800
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Importance: Normal
Status:

Dana-
I’ll put it together for 6:30 Monday night.  The individuals I’d most
like to invite are my naturopathic colleagues (I am an ND), those that
only know of iboga via moi, and some of the local individuals in town
that may be interested, I’m sure you are probably used to a pretty
diverse crowd.  It’s short notice, but as long as you’re in, I’ll try to
put it together tomorrow.  Mon, Dec 2, 6:30 pm at the Kirstin Gallery,
next door to the University Health Clinic, 5312 Roosevelt Way NE.  A few
bldgs north of Dante’s, for those that know Seattle.
Feel free to invite the others you are traveling with- WE WANT TO LEARN
ABOUT OPTIONS AND POTENTIAL.

We have a small 2-bedroom house in Freemont, north-central Seattle. A
futon folds out in the living room, and there is a couch in the
basement, aka Jason’s office.

Let me know if you need a ride from the airport.  Have a good trip.

My home # 206-297-7297
Cell# 290-8322 (for patients and urgencies)

My partner’s name is Jason and knows you are coming.

Laurie

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@cures-not-wars.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:22 PM
To: lauriemischley@attbi.com
Subject: Re: Seattle trip

For clarification-
Will you be staying at our place at all?  Which nights?

The earliest we could do the lecture would be 6:30 or 7.  What time
does the van leave Seattle?  I’m afraid too many people will be gone
for the weekend if we do it over the weekend.  Also, we need to rent
chairs, etc.

Let me know so I can try to pull it together.

Laurie

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 27, 2002 at 11:03:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know
any more about computers, but I understand why they’re
different.

Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.

Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.

Carla B

The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with the box and try to
put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.

Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right.

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) cats and questions- and getting the creatures fixed
Date: November 27, 2002 at 6:58:21 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Dana, ( I’m posting this here on-list as your note went out on this list)-
Last week, I asked you in person if you were simply offering kittens to strangers or if you knew the people you were giving these kittens away to.
You told me, to my face, “oh yes, I know everyone I give kittens to, and they all come back and give me updates on how they are doing,” or words to this effect.
Why did you tell me that, if you are now sending out mass mailings offering kittens to random folk?
I suppose some are not going to agree with me here, and find me a bleeding heart animal lover, but I don’t really care. I’m always a bit puzzled at people who work so hard for drug reform/harm reduction/etc but do not seem to consider the other living breathing creatures who are facing lotsa travails and turmoils, primarily due to people who do not consider the results of cats mating repeatedly.
The CACC euthanasizes tons, (thousands upon thousands every year- something like 60,000 last year in Manhattan alone if I’m remembering correctly) of kittens, cats, puppies and dogs who need homes but never get them. The Humane Society has been known to do free fixing in situations in which there are multiple cats in need of said fixing.
The reason I asked you about whether you knew the people you give the kittens away to is because there are many, many inhuman types out there who specifically troll for people like you, who (repeatedly because they refuse to get their cats fixed- and why not I simply cannot understand) offer kittens willy nilly. These monsters collect said kittens from people like you, then sell the little furry fellows to animal testers, and worse, to people who use them for nasty past times like dog-fight training, to get the dogs used to blood and killing. In my own mind, this is really easy to not contribute to.
The solution would be to get the cats fixed. It’s very easy to do, and only takes a little time, probably less time even than that you are taking trying to find the ones on the way homes now. Granted you currently have some on the way who need homes, but do you really feel comfortable simply handing them out as you are offering to do? I’m not saying don’t give them away, I’m only wondering if it matters to you at all where they end up as long as it isn’t in 9 Bleecker. Taking care of an animal is a lot of work, work that many people might think is easy until they actually undertake it. Cats shit, meow, shed fur, scratch furniture, break things, and create havoc inside city apartments. Then the animals often end up neglected, abused, abandoned, and worse. Why continue contributing to this situation Dana? Kittens are cute and cuddly to most people. Spraying males or a dripping blood female in heat with scores of male cats howling and fighting outside the window for the chance to add to the overpopulation is not cute nor cuddly, and not something a lot of people want to deal with.
The homeless animal situation in NYC is out of control. The animals face horrors way above and beyond the worst that any junky ever does. (Will ibogaine take care of the homeless animal situation in NYC and the rest of the US?) 30 abandoned cats were recently found in an apartment in Queens who all need homes, (10 of which were found dead already) and probably won’t get them, because people don’t fix their cats. V just helped out at another home with 60 some animals who all needed homes because the owner/rescuer died and left all these animals in limbo in yet another overcrowded with rescued animals home until they too find permanent homes, if they are lucky. (Of which we personally took 2 and found another home for another ONE sole cat- bringing our own current total to 9 fixed animals living with us in our tiny LES hovel.) If you search “animal rescue” online, you will see just how many animals in NYC need homes now as it is.
I’m a little bothered that you told me one thing to my face, then within scant days sent out mass emailings seemingly saying the exact opposite to that which you said to my face, but the important thing is the cats, not what you said to me. They cannot fix themselves. They will continue to add to the overpopulation in the city until you take the initiative. They won’t be mad at you if you fix them. It even helps them with territorial issues, will keep them from adding more spray to 9 Bleecker, and will help keep any flea and litter situation there under control. It is not a difficult thing to help the animals out with this Dana. I understand you give a lot of cats a home at 9 Bleecker, but it doesn’t help much if they keep pumping out ever more kittens who need homes when people could be adopting from the death row at CACC and other “shelters” too.
V is willing to help take your cats one or two at a time to a vet to get fixed. Please let me/us know, and we’ll get cracking. In the mean time, please do not simply hand out your kittens to strangers. That would suck. Please make sure who it is you wind up giving them to and what they plan to do with them. Thanks.

Peace,
Preston
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:28:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Anyone on this list got too much time on their
hands? I do!
(have a cold), so can help you out:

Questions for Dr. Laura
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5465291.html

That one is hysterical 🙂

Carla B

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:26:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Steal two, I don’t want to miss this either 🙂

Carla B

— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

That sunk it, I’m stealing my dad’s credit card and
going

__________________________________________________
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From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:20:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That sunk it, I’m stealing my dad’s credit card and going

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:04:55 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:40:28PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| There is a good chance of methadone advocates dropping in on the
ibogaine
| session so it would appreciated if anti methadone positions are
carefully
| measured in terms of reality issues rather than non-applicable
nida promoted
| theology.
|
| The alliance of methadone and ibogaine advocates is as natural
as it gets and
| certainly beneficial to both groups.

I don’t understand.  Are you trying to say this would be a bad time
to
mention that methadone blows dead goats…?  What about marijuana
maintenance camps and the Philip K. Dick receptor complex…?  If
we do
not mention this critically important information, then WHO will
do so?
If not us, then who?  Have you thought about that Howard…?

Okay people, time for a Complete Fucking Riot!  Woo Hoo!!!!  Let’s
see
what we can do to push Allan’s insurance rates into the stratosphere.

Don’t worry, all is well.  You know how diplomatic I am; Dana has
promised
to be on his very best behavior — whatever that means exactly;
now if
only Deborah will chill out and not say any crazy shit, we’ll all
be Just
Fine.  EVERYTHING is in good hands.  I’m absolutely, positively,
and
without a doubt, sure of this.  I think.

Yo, anybody want sum cats?  Distance is not an issue, Fedex delivers
anything; even stuff other than drugs hidden in videotapes.  “Did
you MARK
the box that says [.] Highly Unstable Explosives? / You did? / Well
that’s
fine then.”

Patrick

p.s., Is it okay to mention the Book of Revelations clearly documents
that
junkie space aliens planted ibogaine in the Gabon?

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:20:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Anyone on this list got too much time on their hands? I do!
(have a cold), so can help you out:

Questions for Dr. Laura
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5465291.html

Re: yesterday’s knife fighting ad
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5288293.html

HELP ive been traumatized for life
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5975149.html

If only I could get everyone to agree….
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5098358.html

Bill

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 26, 2002 at 11:04:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:40:28PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| There is a good chance of methadone advocates dropping in on the ibogaine
| session so it would appreciated if anti methadone positions are carefully
| measured in terms of reality issues rather than non-applicable nida promoted
| theology.
|
| The alliance of methadone and ibogaine advocates is as natural as it gets and
| certainly beneficial to both groups.

I don’t understand.  Are you trying to say this would be a bad time to
mention that methadone blows dead goats…?  What about marijuana
maintenance camps and the Philip K. Dick receptor complex…?  If we do
not mention this critically important information, then WHO will do so?
If not us, then who?  Have you thought about that Howard…?

Okay people, time for a Complete Fucking Riot!  Woo Hoo!!!!  Let’s see
what we can do to push Allan’s insurance rates into the stratosphere.

Don’t worry, all is well.  You know how diplomatic I am; Dana has promised
to be on his very best behavior — whatever that means exactly; now if
only Deborah will chill out and not say any crazy shit, we’ll all be Just
Fine.  EVERYTHING is in good hands.  I’m absolutely, positively, and
without a doubt, sure of this.  I think.

Yo, anybody want sum cats?  Distance is not an issue, Fedex delivers
anything; even stuff other than drugs hidden in videotapes.  “Did you MARK
the box that says [.] Highly Unstable Explosives? / You did? / Well that’s
fine then.”

Patrick

p.s., Is it okay to mention the Book of Revelations clearly documents that
junkie space aliens planted ibogaine in the Gabon?

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 26, 2002 at 10:52:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mr. Genius, shut up and finish already 😉

Carla B

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:21:31AM -0000], [Curtis
Hersch] wrote:
|
| Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to
it, bro I have
| spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark
manuscript. This is a
| paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated
Dec 2001. It is
| Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all
bro but get
| real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were
nearly done end
| of 2001, get this out.

<… Cut …>

Curtis,

Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.

Listen, please do not do this.  By “this” I mean
start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list.  I
realize this is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a
timely manner.  The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with
filters throwing 90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s
still like, “holy fucking
shit.  No way.  No fucking way mahn…”

And the problem is, when people write one or two
line messages that ask a
question, they usually get a reply.  When someone
writes me 20 well
written paragraphs; it gets thrown into, “I should
write this person a
thoughtful response” mailbox, and then just scrolls
into oblivion because
I never have the time.  I apologize for that, and I
know you’re a positive
person who makes good contributions to things and
stuff.

Basically: yeah I know all that.  Please chill.
That was a piece of a
manuscript that went to Francis around the time he
was finishing his Opium
book I think, and we were exchanging stuff about the
imaginary
organization called TA.  Tits and Ass, whoopsie, I
meant to say, Thinking
Anonymous, sort of the anti-12-step drivel group.
‘Cept SMART appears to
already be that.  Anyway Lost Ark was one piece,
then there is Pieces of
Mind, Spirits, Two Primary Colors Having an
Argument, and some other shit.

It has all been reorganized and pulled and the
timeline is solid.  It goes
from roughly 1994 and the fall of MindVox, to the
very start of 2000, a
few months after I came back from Thailand.  Going
further back or
forward, and it is too much text.  It will come in
at roughly 125K words
after editing — mine — probably 100K after
whomever the editor is,
finishes slicing n’ dicing it.  I was trying to
compress all experience
covering ’bout a decade into one book, and there’s
just too much of it,
I’ve got enough for 3-5 books.  I just need to hit
the finish line on the
first one.

The main problem is that it’s just a huge amount of
work.  What is in Lost
Ark is solid, since it’s written in 1999 after I am
more or less halfway
together, and pulling data from laptop to Sun, to
OS/X; but basically
pulling data.  1994-96 is shit splattered all over
the place, and 96 –
early ’99 is… I have roughly 800 pages of
handwritten notebooks.  Which
are crumpled, have ashes, blood, dirt, coffee
stains, splattered all over
’em literally — not just figuratively.  This adds
character and works
wonders to pull me back into the spaces where it was
all written, just in
case the words weren’t enough, but attempting to
scan it in results in
’bout 1600 pages of this:

I’
–Jf~t ~~~f+~
;r ,1
~$ w~ w~nd on qown the +o~~( our shadows t~+~er t~~
ffปF ~p~ts…,
~~d ~eppelin ,
…time spins, as moments and fraQmenrs stream
throuqh my fietd
of perception, and I’m back once more in the place
tqat’s no longer here,
p~t
falling from there. Shapes and colors have yet to
r~q~in their solid,
ab$oluteness, lines reach out and keep going, nev~r
r~~~ly acknowledging
~h~ir
I
boundaries, as rainbow washes spray over the surface
9# monochrome walls,
burning their light and darkness across a slashed
and blurred tapestry of
perpetual motion.
Qft~~~P Q
f:j,n,t~~f~R~f A~ts, places, t:~,l+R~~’ ~+1;It+ft~g
time, fo~fii
s
nfeama Or! , ,!”‘, , ‘ :1’, “!
‘1,.~./f'”~TI;!.: ;’;”\;”:” Ii’ ;,
1 ” : ‘. ‘;i” , , , , \I 1 …~, \ 1, 1
, c –” I;. i
;’ , ! , , ‘ ~,,’ 1
“‘
l
.j’
, .’1\
I
i –
,

That’s a major fucking pain in the ass to sift
through, figure out what to
pull, and for the most part just copy by hand since
even the best OCR
software I have ever found, that will attempt to
scan in handwriting once
“taught” is not managing to do this with what I’ve
got.

Doan’ worry, it’s coming.

Patrick

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 26, 2002 at 10:40:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There is a good chance of methadone advocates dropping in on the ibogaine
session so it would appreciated if anti methadone positions are carefully
measured in terms of reality issues rather than non-applicable nida promoted
theology.

The alliance of methadone and ibogaine advocates is as natural as it gets and
certainly beneficial to both groups.

Howard

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 26, 2002 at 10:11:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know
any more about computers, but I understand why they’re
different.

Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.

Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.

Carla B

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

| >From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid
fetish tech. NeXT.
| Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No
support of open source or
| Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything
about computers it’s all
| this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your
mind and made all of you
| into losers.

Look, THAT’S IT.  THAT right there, is why I’m even
replying to your
message.  Allow me to ‘splain.  OS/X *is* NeXTSTEP
2002.  It’s the
Batmobile.  Solaris is a rusted, dented, atomic
powered tank, dragging 18
phone lines behind it, that JUST KEEPS GOING.
Windoze (all versions,
including eXtra Problems), is a Pinto held together
with superglue.  But
it has a life size photo of a Lexus hung in front of
it, and most people
never make it past that.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] good pain article
Date: November 26, 2002 at 7:30:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Mon, 21 Oct 2002
Source: Report Magazine (CN AB)
Copyright: 2002 Report Magazine, United Western Comm Ltd
Contact: ar@incentre.net
Website: http://www.report.ca/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/1327
Author: Candis McLean
Note: This is the BC Edition

MILLIONS SUFFER SEVERE, UNNECESSARY AGONY

Patients And Doctors Fight For Clear Rules On The Use Of Narcotics For
Long-Term, Unbearable Pain

THE trouble with pain is that it hurts.

Worse, severe long-term pain packs a double wallop: it also produces
permanent neurological damage. “Pain is a disease no different than
cancer,” explains internationally renowned pain therapist Dr. Frank Adams,
who left Canada in 2001 over his disagreement with the treatment of pain in
this country.

He now practises in Houston, Texas. “Pain is destructive to the body and
body systems.

It alters the immune system over the long term, gradually affects other
organ systems, and measurably changes the chemistry and electrical firing
system of the brain so that, if untreated, people end up with a range of
neuro-cognitive abnormalities which impair memory, language functions and
information-processing efficiency.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n2145.a01.html

——————————

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Chippewa Demands Peyote Rights…
Date: November 26, 2002 at 3:52:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Sat, 23 Nov 2002
Source: Traverse City Record-Eagle (MI)
Webpage: http://www.record-eagle.com/2002/nov/23pey.htm
Copyright: 2002 The Traverse City Record-Eagle
Contact: letters@record-eagle.com
Website: http://www.record-eagle.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/1336
Author: Associated Press
Bookmarks: http://www.mapinc.org/spirit.htm (Spiritual or Sacramental)
http://www.mapinc.org/area/Michigan

TC MAN WANTS SON TO USE PEYOTE

Gt Band Member Wants Son, 4, to Participate in His Church’s Peyote-Laden Rites

WHITE CLOUD (AP) – A Michigan man said Friday the court system is
restricting his religious freedom by prohibiting his 4-year-old son
from being given peyote during American Indian spiritual ceremonies.

“This burdens me,” said Jonathan Fowler, 35, a member of the Grand
Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians.

Fowler, of Traverse City, testified in Newaygo County Family Court
during a legal hearing stemming from a custody dispute with his
ex-wife, Kristin Hanslovsky, 31, of Montague.

Webpage: http://www.record-eagle.com/2002/nov/23pey.htm
——————————

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Philip Dick Liked Cats, so….
Date: November 26, 2002 at 3:19:34 PM EST
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Breeding pair of Siamese available now. Will have healthy, non-inbred
kitties…

Also a diminuative Bombay (Black Siamese) and Japanese Tuxedo-cat
pair (will have 50% Siamese, 50% Bombay).

Lots of Siamese and Bombay kittens available in December, for Christmas.

Contact Dana or Alice 212-677-4899.

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Having a cat or cats can help with recovery…
Date: November 26, 2002 at 3:32:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Breeding pair of Siamese available now. Will have healthy, non-inbred
kitties…

Also a diminuative Bombay (Black Siamese) and Japanese Tuxedo-cat
pair (will have 50% Siamese, 50% Bombay).

Lots of Siamese and Bombay kittens available in December, for Christmas.

Contact Dana or Alice 212-677-4899.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 26, 2002 at 1:23:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:57:27PM -0800], [resedit@hush.com] wrote:

| I would like to say that in studying the history of the computer
| underground and hacking you were one of my role models. Hacking sites
| still reprint articles you wrote when you were 11 years old. You were a
| prodigy. But you’re not a hacker anymore. In LOD you were the same as
| Kevin Mitnick, head social engineer. A glorified con man who was smart
| enough to learn everything and then corrupted it all to destroy systems
| and people’s lives. None of you were learning and contributing anything,
| all of you stole money and used your power to fuck over people you
| wanted to destroy.

Sorry, but I’ve done a lot of drugs, suffered extensive neurological
damage, and in fact it’s a miracle I’m as high-functioning as I am.  I
have no recollection of the events in question.

Here’s a rationalization: no action that “we” allegedly took, is any worse
than what our glorious Gub’mint is grabbing up for itself as we speak,
while it rewrites pretty much all laws that pertain to individual privacy,
and freedom.  “And we will stamp out freedom until there are no terrorists
left!  (Inside my mind).”  If anything, we were more ethical ’bout it.

Here’s another answer: “Power corrupts, absolute power is kinda neat.”
With thanks to Bill Ross for that quote.

| >From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid fetish tech. NeXT.
| Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No support of open source or
| Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s all
| this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your mind and made all of you
| into losers.

Look, THAT’S IT.  THAT right there, is why I’m even replying to your
message.  Allow me to ‘splain.  OS/X *is* NeXTSTEP 2002.  It’s the
Batmobile.  Solaris is a rusted, dented, atomic powered tank, dragging 18
phone lines behind it, that JUST KEEPS GOING.  Windoze (all versions,
including eXtra Problems), is a Pinto held together with superglue.  But
it has a life size photo of a Lexus hung in front of it, and most people
never make it past that.

What decade are you in…?  Solaris *IS* open source.  The source code was
released years ago.  OS/X is running Mach, with a BSD 4.4 kernel called
Darwin.  It is OPEN SOURCE.  In fact, here:

http://www.opendarwin.org/

Linux is … very interesting, if you’re a kid, who wants to learn about
unix.  God bless, play with it.  It becomes much less interesting if you
do not have infinite spare time and actually need to use the computer to
accomplish something useful RIGHT NOW, not 18 revisions later when 12 of
the libs which are at 0.6.2.1 become stable enough to not core dump every
10 clicks.

If you want a stable, bulletproof, open source server, then BSD kicks
Linux’s ass in.

| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.

Oh shaddup, go smoke some crack, and jack off to your Richard Stallman and
Linus Torvalds photo collection.

Patrick

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo For Resedit
Date: November 26, 2002 at 9:44:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: resedit@hush.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Resedit,

Gee, thanks for sharing, you know so much. Got a
couple questions for ya.

What OS, hardware and software do YOU THINK Mindvox
should be run on? This is really important to recovery
so get it right.

Make a detailed list of what Mindvox should be. Better
yet, design the entire site complete with all coding
and content and send it off to Patrick, I am sure he
will be tickled.

Please tell us what is wrong with ibogaine, you know,
challenge its anti-addictive properties, tell us how
it don’t work and didn’t work for us, how it is
nothing more than some kind of ACID (or whatever you
believe) – that I (for instance) am lying. Remember to
use citations with your claims.

Tell us what you think is better than ibogiane and
why, maybe UROD tickles you, or maybe you think
addicts should be simply lined up and shot, maybe
burned at the stake.

What religion should we all follow? What is your
religion?

What should we read, what shouldn’t we read? Do you
read, if so what?

What kind of sex can we have (if any)? Do you have
sex, if so with what?

Who should our friends be? Who are your friends?

What thoughts are evil and which ones are good? For
instance is getting you strung out and dropping you
off in Harlem (naked with a sign that says “I HATE
NIGGERS”) a good thought or a bad one? OK, skip the
Harlem bit, just get you strung out, take your dope
away and see if ibogaine works or not – I think that
is a good thought, what do you think? It is simple,
effective and straight forward, and VERY convincing…

What kinds of foods can we eat? What do you eat? How
much do you weigh/what is your height?

List all medications we can and cannot have as well as
when we are allowed and not allowed to take them.

What medications are you on? Do you drink? Do you
smoke? Do you use Sugar?

What kinds of activities should we report to the
authorities or should we just report everything and
let them sort it out?

What things can we say and what things can’t we say?

In fact, give us a list of everything we should do and
everything we should not do, be detailed and specific.

I need this list so I don’t sin any longer, it is up
to you to enlighten me, if not you are the sinner who
will burn in hell forever for not spreading the word.

Brett

— resedit@hush.com wrote:

I would like to say that in studying the history of
the computer underground and hacking you were one of
my role models. Hacking sites still reprint articles
you wrote when you were 11 years old. You were a
prodigy. But you’re not a hacker anymore. In LOD you
were the same as Kevin Mitnick, head social
engineer. A glorified con man who was smart enough
to learn everything and then corrupted it all to
destroy systems and people’s lives. None of you were
learning and contributing anything, all of you stole
money and used your power to fuck over people you
wanted to destroy.

From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid
fetish tech. NeXT. Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed
systems. No support of open source or Linux. You can
write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s
all this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your
mind and made all of you into losers.

Drugs are for losers.

I am disgusted that Mindvox is now some promotional
service for ibogaine and psychedelic drugs. Every
other banner is some drug site. The login now lists
psychedlic drugs conferences. Who cares about
ibogaine. I don’t think it’s fair that nearly
everyone who knows what Mindvox is comes here and
finds this junk instead. It’s like using a legend
that had great meaning to sell used cars.

Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to
get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate
Program:

https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 26, 2002 at 8:20:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 resedit@hush.com wrote:

From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid fetish tech. NeXT. Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No support of open source or Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s all this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your mind and made all of you into losers.

Drugs are for losers.

I am disgusted that Mindvox is now some promotional service for ibogaine and psychedelic drugs. Every other banner is some drug site. The login now lists psychedlic drugs conferences. Who cares about ibogaine. I don’t think it’s fair that nearly everyone who knows what Mindvox is comes here and finds this junk instead. It’s like using a legend that had great meaning to sell used cars.

it must be troll season! =)

__________________________________________________________________________
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.net |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: resedit@hush.com
Subject: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 25, 2002 at 10:57:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would like to say that in studying the history of the computer underground and hacking you were one of my role models. Hacking sites still reprint articles you wrote when you were 11 years old. You were a prodigy. But you’re not a hacker anymore. In LOD you were the same as Kevin Mitnick, head social engineer. A glorified con man who was smart enough to learn everything and then corrupted it all to destroy systems and people’s lives. None of you were learning and contributing anything, all of you stole money and used your power to fuck over people you wanted to destroy.

From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid fetish tech. NeXT. Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No support of open source or Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s all this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your mind and made all of you into losers.

Drugs are for losers.

I am disgusted that Mindvox is now some promotional service for ibogaine and psychedelic drugs. Every other banner is some drug site. The login now lists psychedlic drugs conferences. Who cares about ibogaine. I don’t think it’s fair that nearly everyone who knows what Mindvox is comes here and finds this junk instead. It’s like using a legend that had great meaning to sell used cars.

Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] glossy mag for female injectors
Date: November 25, 2002 at 3:26:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Tue, 19 Nov 2002
Source: Guardian, The (UK)
Copyright: 2002 Guardian Newspapers Limited
Contact: letters@guardian.co.uk
Website: http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/175
Author: Andrew Osborn in Amsterdam

POT SHOTS FIRED AT JUNKIES’ MAGAZINE

Outrage Over ‘Drug Chic’ Women’S Glossy Offering Recipes And Beauty
Tips To Heroin And Cocaine Users

A women’s magazine with a difference will appear in the Netherlands
next month. Its glossy pages are filled with beauty tips, horoscopes,
feature stories about sex and cooking and oodles of health advice –
but Sister Mainline is aimed at female cocaine and heroin addicts, and
its contents have infuriated anti-drugs campaigners across Europe.

Held up as a classic example of “drug chic” publishing, the magazine
is partly funded by the Dutch health ministry. Its controversial
message is not that hard drugs are intrinsically bad, but that they
can be used “sensibly”.

Its print run may be just 1,500, but its impact in an increasingly
conservative political climate is likely to be explosive.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n2124.a01.html

——————————

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] methadone & Australian prisons
Date: November 25, 2002 at 2:17:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Sun, 17 Nov 2002
Source: Sun-Herald (Australia)
Copyright: 2002 John Fairfax Holdings Ltd
Contact: shletters@mail.fairfax.com.au
Website: http://www.sunherald.com.au/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/431
Author: Alex Mitchell, State Political Editor
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?136 (Methadone)

PRISON DRUG POLICY ‘CREATING ADDICTS’

The State prison system is feeding the problem of drug addiction by turning
heroin users into methadone addicts, the NSW Opposition said yesterday.

Latest figures from the Department of Corrective Services show the average
daily number of inmates on methadone is 1,036 – one in seven of the prison
population.

The number entering jail while methadone-addicted in 2000-01 was 1,277 and
the number of methadone addicts who left the system was 1,828. The number of
prisoners who started using methadone in prison in the same year was 762.

Shadow Corrective Services Minister Michael Richardson criticised the
government policy on the drug, saying: “Methadone is known as liquid
handcuffs because it’s tougher to shake than heroin.”

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n2116.a11.html
————–

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] More Methadone Horror Stories
Date: November 25, 2002 at 10:28:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It turns out, due to someone’s ineptitude, that patients on a local
clinic were not being charged for their drug screens for a good number
of months.  So, they decided to rectify the situation, which means that
nearly every patient showed up and collected their nasty-gram that said
“You have a back-balance of____”  If you don’t pay up by <date>,
services will be suspended…

This would be bad enough, but it gets worse.  The person responsible
for writing up the letter gave them to the receptionist to hand
out…conveniently, she is out on leave for the time-frame provided to
pay up, returning the day after all of the fallout will have settled.

And the stink riseth even higher…while it is true that we haven’t
been charging for drug screens due to some sort of oversight, evidently
some billing genius decided that they weren’t charging patients enough
for drug screens, and they raised the price a few months ago without
bothering to advise ANYONE who actually works at the methadone clinic in
question…even the clinical director.

Too often, it feels like I’m just standing in line at the DMV.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] redirect to curtis hersch/try-do contrast
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:54:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oh, oops, you saw that already. And thanks Howard. I try. (see, some can try and even do. But this reminds me. Really brief, I’m not sure who wrote the thing about “don’t try, do” but I can’t say I necessarily agree in all cases. Ed Forchion would love to get out of jail, but can only try at this point. I’m sure there are even much better examples than this, but still, I wanted to say something about that in my quickly fashion.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:16 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] redirect to curtis hersch

In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

>  Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.
>Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated,
>about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS
>does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped
>ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not
>what I’m looking for.
>

Please provide name and citation of Alper paper?

Akso, great site Preston,  http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id348/pg1/

Thanks

Howard

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] preston peet / alper’s paper
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:51:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry Howard, I don’t know, I merely replied to a note that Curtis wrote. Perhaps he can direct us.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:06 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] preston peet / alper’s paper

In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

>  Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.

Which paper is that?

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] redirect to curtis hersch
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:16:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.
Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated,
about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS
does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped
ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not
what I’m looking for.

Please provide name and citation of Alper paper?

Akso, great site Preston,  http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id348/pg1/

Thanks

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] preston peet / alper’s paper
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:06:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.

Which paper is that?

Howard

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence
Date: November 25, 2002 at 8:34:57 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is a couple years old now, maybe even close to 3 years old now, (despite the date on the top of the page- a repost date when disinfo.com updated their site), but there are a rather large number of links gathered here that you may appreciate Curtis, and everyone else too looking for this sort of info.
Peace,
Preston
http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id348/pg1/
Marijuana is Good For You!
Marijuana is a killer, if you ingest 15,000 pounds of the stuff within 15 minutes, a recent figure seen accredited to the US Drug Enforcement Administration suggests. Regardless of this dubious ‘fact’, eight US States have passed Medical Marijuana laws allowing people with a variety of ailments and medical complaints to legally use marijuana.
snip-
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence

This is a really good article. Thanks for posting that Brett. I am so very tired of all the pseudoscience that is written up about the great dangers of cannabis. Apply even 5% of that to cigarettes or alcohol and see how it would hold up without all those kickbacks and lobbying groups to keep two of the most dangerous drugs legal.

Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive qualities. Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated, about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not what I’m looking for.

Thanks and peace out,
Curtis

On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 Brett Calabrese wrote :
>Forwarded from another list. Brett
>
>— Les Smith <leesmithjr@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: Maia Szalavitz <maia@ECHONYC.COM>
> > To: <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:31 PM
> > Subject: schizophrenia incidence
> >
> >
> > To those who think that pot can lead to
> > schizophrenia, how would you
> > explain the research which finds the incidence
> > stable over the last 50
> > years, in which time marijuana use in the U.S. and
> > Europe went from
> > negligible to some 60% trying it in 1980?
> >
> > The jury remains out on whether it can precipitate
> > onset in those who are
> > vulnerable or whether those who are vulnerable just
> > like to smoke pot more
> > than other people.  Also, in looking at the
> > schizophrenia and pot stuff, I
> > also saw that most studies found that schizophrenics
> > who smoke pot have
> > fewer “negative symptoms” (anhedonia, social
> > withdrawal) and more
> > “positive symptoms.” (hallucinations, etc.)
> >
> > Since it is the negative symptoms that are most
> > painful for people with
> > schizophrenia and they are the symptoms least
> > affected by traditional meds
> > (though newer ones can help some), it is not
> > surprising that they would
> > try to self-medicate with pot, and it seems that it
> > may actually help some
> > in some cases.
> >
> >
> > Epidemiology of schizophrenia.
> > Häfner H, an der Heiden W
> > Can J Psychiatry 1997 Mar 42:139-5
> >
> >
> > Abstract
> > OBJECTIVE: To characterize the epidemiology of
> > schizophrenia. METHOD:
> > Narrative literature review. RESULTS: Each year 1 in
> > 10,000 adults (12 to
> > 60 years of age) develops schizophrenia. Based on a
> > restrictive and
> > precise definition of the diagnosis and using
> > standardized assessment
> > methods and large, representative populations, the
> > incidence rates appear
> > stable across countries and cultures and over time,
> > at least for the last
> > 50 years. Schizophrenic patients are not born into
> > ecological and social
> > disadvantage. The uneven distribution of prevalence
> > rates is a result of
> > social selection: an early onset leads to social
> > stagnation, a late onset
> > to descent from a higher social status. The main age
> > range of risk for
> > schizophrenia is 20 to 35 years. It is still unclear
> > whether
> > schizophrenia-like late-onset psychoses (for
> > example, late paraphrenia)
> > after age 60 should be classified as schizophrenia
> > either
> > psychopathologically or etiologically. In 75% of
> > cases, first admission is
> > preceded by a prodromal phase with a mean length of
> > 5 years and a
> > psychotic prephase of one year’s duration. On
> > average, women fall ill 3 to
> > 4 years later than men and show a second peak of
> > onset around menopause.
> > Consequently, late-onset schizophrenias are more
> > frequent and more severe
> > in women than in men. The sex difference in age of
> > onset is smaller in
> > cases with a high genetic load and greater in cases
> > with a low genetic
> > load. Type of onset and core symptoms do not differ
> > between the sexes. The
> > most pronounced sex difference is the socially
> > negative illness behaviour
> > of young men. CONCLUSIONS: Among the factors
> > determining social course and
> > outcome are level of social development at onset,
> > the disorder itself (for
> > example, genetic liability, severity of symptoms,
> > and functional
> > deficits), general biological factors (for example,
> > estrogen), and sex-
> > and age-specific illness behaviour.
> >
> >
>———————————————————–
> > To unsubscribe put- unsubscribe Addict-L -in the
> > body of a
> > message to: listserv@listserv.kent.edu
> >
>———————————————————–
> > List archives and subscription options are at:
> > http://listserv.kent.edu/archives/Addict-L.html
> >
>———————————————————–
> > Send requests for help to
> > Addict-L-request@listserv.kent.edu
> >
>———————————————————–
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence
Date: November 25, 2002 at 1:19:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is a really good article. Thanks for posting that Brett. I am so very tired of all the pseudoscience that is written up about the great dangers of cannabis. Apply even 5% of that to cigarettes or alcohol and see how it would hold up without all those kickbacks and lobbying groups to keep two of the most dangerous drugs legal.

Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive qualities. Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated, about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not what I’m looking for.

Thanks and peace out,
Curtis

On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 Brett Calabrese wrote :
Forwarded from another list. Brett

— Les Smith <leesmithjr@prodigy.net> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: Maia Szalavitz <maia@ECHONYC.COM>
To: <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: schizophrenia incidence

To those who think that pot can lead to
schizophrenia, how would you
explain the research which finds the incidence
stable over the last 50
years, in which time marijuana use in the U.S. and
Europe went from
negligible to some 60% trying it in 1980?

The jury remains out on whether it can precipitate
onset in those who are
vulnerable or whether those who are vulnerable just
like to smoke pot more
than other people.  Also, in looking at the
schizophrenia and pot stuff, I
also saw that most studies found that schizophrenics
who smoke pot have
fewer “negative symptoms” (anhedonia, social
withdrawal) and more
“positive symptoms.” (hallucinations, etc.)

Since it is the negative symptoms that are most
painful for people with
schizophrenia and they are the symptoms least
affected by traditional meds
(though newer ones can help some), it is not
surprising that they would
try to self-medicate with pot, and it seems that it
may actually help some
in some cases.

Epidemiology of schizophrenia.
Häfner H, an der Heiden W
Can J Psychiatry 1997 Mar 42:139-5

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To characterize the epidemiology of
schizophrenia. METHOD:
Narrative literature review. RESULTS: Each year 1 in
10,000 adults (12 to
60 years of age) develops schizophrenia. Based on a
restrictive and
precise definition of the diagnosis and using
standardized assessment
methods and large, representative populations, the
incidence rates appear
stable across countries and cultures and over time,
at least for the last
50 years. Schizophrenic patients are not born into
ecological and social
disadvantage. The uneven distribution of prevalence
rates is a result of
social selection: an early onset leads to social
stagnation, a late onset
to descent from a higher social status. The main age
range of risk for
schizophrenia is 20 to 35 years. It is still unclear
whether
schizophrenia-like late-onset psychoses (for
example, late paraphrenia)
after age 60 should be classified as schizophrenia
either
psychopathologically or etiologically. In 75% of
cases, first admission is
preceded by a prodromal phase with a mean length of
5 years and a
psychotic prephase of one year’s duration. On
average, women fall ill 3 to
4 years later than men and show a second peak of
onset around menopause.
Consequently, late-onset schizophrenias are more
frequent and more severe
in women than in men. The sex difference in age of
onset is smaller in
cases with a high genetic load and greater in cases
with a low genetic
load. Type of onset and core symptoms do not differ
between the sexes. The
most pronounced sex difference is the socially
negative illness behaviour
of young men. CONCLUSIONS: Among the factors
determining social course and
outcome are level of social development at onset,
the disorder itself (for
example, genetic liability, severity of symptoms,
and functional
deficits), general biological factors (for example,
estrogen), and sex-
and age-specific illness behaviour.

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 25, 2002 at 12:57:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Understood bro, did not mean to wave my arms around to get your attention but it worked 😉

What I mean to say and I guess has been said enough times so you may have become aware of it 😉 is that you write “tens better” 😉 then neary anybody I’ve ever seen. You’ve gone way down the road that a lot of us have been on and it is not enough to say that addictionology is a bad joke or the 12 steps suck, it is important to say why and why some of these people should not even be allowed to treat human beings. It is important to write about ibogaine in the way you do.

You may be pissed off about your experiences with “treatment professionals” or should I say treatment pimps 🙂 and other idiots, but thank god you went through it, because you write about it so very well. I think maybe you think most of this is about you and you’re doing whatever your thing is, but people do not get all excited and kiss your ass because you write well, they do that because you are writing our truth. And there isn’t anyone else doing that. That is so important. I only want you to know that and take it seriously enough to get it out there, because bro you can write. You saying it gets heard by so many more people then someone else saying it in a way that makes nobody listen to them.

You have talent bro and you made a amazing journey through the darkness and back into light, but you are speaking the truth for many people. This is important. Try to know that. It’s not just your ego trip or whatever you think of it.

Peace out and finish,
Curtis

On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :

Curtis,

Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.

Listen, please do not do this.  By “this” I mean start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list.  I realize this is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a timely manner.  The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with filters throwing 90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s still like, “holy fucking
shit.  No way.  No fucking way mahn…”

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 24, 2002 at 6:49:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Jon Freedlander wrote:

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:

Why oh why do scatological discussions keep cropping up here?;-))

there is something inherently mystical about poop. maybe because its an
anagram.

duh, i mean a palindrome.

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.net |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 24, 2002 at 6:32:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:

Why oh why do scatological discussions keep cropping up here?;-))

there is something inherently mystical about poop. maybe because its an
anagram.

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.net |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence
Date: November 24, 2002 at 3:14:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Forwarded from another list. Brett

— Les Smith <leesmithjr@prodigy.net> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: Maia Szalavitz <maia@ECHONYC.COM>
To: <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: schizophrenia incidence

To those who think that pot can lead to
schizophrenia, how would you
explain the research which finds the incidence
stable over the last 50
years, in which time marijuana use in the U.S. and
Europe went from
negligible to some 60% trying it in 1980?

The jury remains out on whether it can precipitate
onset in those who are
vulnerable or whether those who are vulnerable just
like to smoke pot more
than other people.  Also, in looking at the
schizophrenia and pot stuff, I
also saw that most studies found that schizophrenics
who smoke pot have
fewer “negative symptoms” (anhedonia, social
withdrawal) and more
“positive symptoms.” (hallucinations, etc.)

Since it is the negative symptoms that are most
painful for people with
schizophrenia and they are the symptoms least
affected by traditional meds
(though newer ones can help some), it is not
surprising that they would
try to self-medicate with pot, and it seems that it
may actually help some
in some cases.

Epidemiology of schizophrenia.
Häfner H, an der Heiden W
Can J Psychiatry 1997 Mar 42:139-5

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To characterize the epidemiology of
schizophrenia. METHOD:
Narrative literature review. RESULTS: Each year 1 in
10,000 adults (12 to
60 years of age) develops schizophrenia. Based on a
restrictive and
precise definition of the diagnosis and using
standardized assessment
methods and large, representative populations, the
incidence rates appear
stable across countries and cultures and over time,
at least for the last
50 years. Schizophrenic patients are not born into
ecological and social
disadvantage. The uneven distribution of prevalence
rates is a result of
social selection: an early onset leads to social
stagnation, a late onset
to descent from a higher social status. The main age
range of risk for
schizophrenia is 20 to 35 years. It is still unclear
whether
schizophrenia-like late-onset psychoses (for
example, late paraphrenia)
after age 60 should be classified as schizophrenia
either
psychopathologically or etiologically. In 75% of
cases, first admission is
preceded by a prodromal phase with a mean length of
5 years and a
psychotic prephase of one year’s duration. On
average, women fall ill 3 to
4 years later than men and show a second peak of
onset around menopause.
Consequently, late-onset schizophrenias are more
frequent and more severe
in women than in men. The sex difference in age of
onset is smaller in
cases with a high genetic load and greater in cases
with a low genetic
load. Type of onset and core symptoms do not differ
between the sexes. The
most pronounced sex difference is the socially
negative illness behaviour
of young men. CONCLUSIONS: Among the factors
determining social course and
outcome are level of social development at onset,
the disorder itself (for
example, genetic liability, severity of symptoms,
and functional
deficits), general biological factors (for example,
estrogen), and sex-
and age-specific illness behaviour.

———————————————————–
To unsubscribe put- unsubscribe Addict-L -in the
body of a
message to: listserv@listserv.kent.edu

———————————————————–
List archives and subscription options are at:
http://listserv.kent.edu/archives/Addict-L.html

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———————————————————–

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From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Product Warning
Date: November 24, 2002 at 4:14:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Product Warnings

WARNING: This product warps space and time in its vicinity.

WARNING: This product attracts every other piece of matter in the universe, including the products of other manufacturers, with a force proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the distance between them.

CAUTION: The mass of this product contains the energy equivalent of 85 million tons of TNT per net ounce of weight.

HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This product contains minute electrically charged particles moving at velocities in excess of 500 million MPH.

CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the “Uncertainty Principle,” it is impossible for the consumer to find out at the same time both precisely where this product is and how fast it is moving.

ADVISORY: There is an extremely small but non-zero chance that, through a process known as “tunneling,” this product may spontaneously disappear from its present location and reappear at any random place in the universe, including your neighbor’s domicile. The manufacturer will not be responsible for any damages or inconvenience that may result.

READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to certain suggested versions of the Grand Unified Theory, the primary particles constituting this product may decay to nothingness within the next 400 million years.

THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the unlikely event that this merchandise should contact antimatter in any form, a catastrophic explosion will result.

PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any use of this product, in any manner whatsoever, will increase the amount of disorder in the universe. Although no liability is implied herein, the consumer is warned that this process will lead to the heat death of the universe.

NOTE: The most fundamental particles in this product are held together by a “gluing” force about which little is currently known, and whose adhesive power can therefore not be permanently guaranteed.

ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product contents found hereon, the consumer is advised that, in actuality, this product consists of 99.9999999% empty space.

NEW GRAND UNIFIED THEORY DISCLAIMER: The manufacturer may technically be entitled to claim that this product is 10-dimensional. However, the consumer is reminded that this confers no legal rights above and beyond those applicable to three-dimensional objects, since the seven new dimensions are “rolled up” into such a small “area” that they cannot be detected.

PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to exist, or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.

COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The subatomic particles (electrons, protons, etc.) comprising this product are exactly the same in every measurable respect as those used in the products of other manufacturers, and no claim to the contrary may legitimately be expressed or implied.

HEALTH WARNING: Care should be taken when lifting this product, since its mass, and thus its weight, is dependent on its velocity relative to the user.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The entire physical universe, including this product, may one day collapse back into an infinitesimally small space. Should another universe subsequently re-emerge, the existence of this product in that universe cannot be guaranteed.

_____________________________________________________________
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From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 24, 2002 at 1:33:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

g you are insane, you are also mad talented. fuck yeah

and what you say needs to be said. the deal is you say it tens better then anybody i ever heard of. speak it brother, you speak the truth.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:48:59 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:21:31AM -0000], [Curtis  Hersch] wrote:
|
| Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have

| spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This
is a
| paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is

| Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get

| real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end

| of 2001, get this out.

<… Cut …>

Curtis,

Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.

Listen, please do not do this.  By “this” I mean start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list.  I realize this
is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a timely manner.
The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with filters throwing
90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s still like, “holy
fucking
shit.  No way.  No fucking way mahn…”

And the problem is, when people write one or two line messages that
ask a
question, they usually get a reply.  When someone writes me 20 well
written paragraphs; it gets thrown into, “I should write this person
a
thoughtful response” mailbox, and then just scrolls into oblivion
because
I never have the time.  I apologize for that, and I know you’re
a positive
person who makes good contributions to things and stuff.

Basically: yeah I know all that.  Please chill.  That was a piece
of a
manuscript that went to Francis around the time he was finishing
his Opium
book I think, and we were exchanging stuff about the imaginary
organization called TA.  Tits and Ass, whoopsie, I meant to say,
Thinking
Anonymous, sort of the anti-12-step drivel group.  ‘Cept SMART appears
to
already be that.  Anyway Lost Ark was one piece, then there is Pieces
of
Mind, Spirits, Two Primary Colors Having an Argument, and some other
shit.

It has all been reorganized and pulled and the timeline is solid.
It goes
from roughly 1994 and the fall of MindVox, to the very start of
2000, a
few months after I came back from Thailand.  Going further back
or
forward, and it is too much text.  It will come in at roughly 125K
words
after editing — mine — probably 100K after whomever the editor
is,
finishes slicing n’ dicing it.  I was trying to compress all experience
covering ’bout a decade into one book, and there’s just too much
of it,
I’ve got enough for 3-5 books.  I just need to hit the finish line
on the
first one.

The main problem is that it’s just a huge amount of work.  What
is in Lost
Ark is solid, since it’s written in 1999 after I am more or less
halfway
together, and pulling data from laptop to Sun, to OS/X; but basically
pulling data.  1994-96 is shit splattered all over the place, and
96 –
early ’99 is… I have roughly 800 pages of handwritten notebooks.
Which
are crumpled, have ashes, blood, dirt, coffee stains, splattered
all over
’em literally — not just figuratively.  This adds character and
works
wonders to pull me back into the spaces where it was all written,
just in
case the words weren’t enough, but attempting to scan it in results
in
’bout 1600 pages of this:

I’
–Jf~t ~~~f+~
;r ,1
~$ w~ w~nd on qown the +o~~( our shadows t~+~er t~~ ffปF ~p~ts…,

~~d ~eppelin ,
…time spins, as moments and fraQmenrs stream throuqh my fietd
of perception, and I’m back once more in the place tqat’s no longer
here,
p~t
falling from there. Shapes and colors have yet to r~q~in their solid,

ab$oluteness, lines reach out and keep going, nev~r r~~~ly acknowledging
~h~ir
I
boundaries, as rainbow washes spray over the surface 9# monochrome
walls,
burning their light and darkness across a slashed and blurred tapestry
of
perpetual motion.
Qft~~~P Q
f:j,n,t~~f~R~f A~ts, places, t:~,l+R~~’ ~+1;It+ft~g time, fo~fii
s
nfeama Or! , ,!”‘, , ‘ :1’, “!
‘1,.~./f'”~TI;!.: ;’;”\;”:” Ii’ ;,
1 ” : ‘. ‘;i” , , , , \I 1 …~, \ 1, 1
, c –” I;. i
;’ , ! , , ‘ ~,,’ 1
“‘
l
.j’
, .’1\
I
i –
,

That’s a major fucking pain in the ass to sift through, figure out
what to
pull, and for the most part just copy by hand since even the best
OCR
software I have ever found, that will attempt to scan in handwriting
once
“taught” is not managing to do this with what I’ve got.

Doan’ worry, it’s coming.

Patrick

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—–
Version: Hush 2.2 (Java)
Note: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify

wlkEARECABkFAj3gctcSHGdib3lAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEFpIFsKkr4lNNZsAoLbF
1A42Y18GDIGsyv4CnY/Sgz6xAJ98PlyCqmY5P5GU6ONOwYUBAgAemA==
=HOEs
—–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 24, 2002 at 1:30:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

no shit

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:29:25 -0800 Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
I dunno. digging for boulders was a drag.

— Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good
vein”

__________________________________________________
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wlkEARECABkFAj3gciESHGdib3lAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEFpIFsKkr4lNeEgAnjuI
dGS0U3iwt9jaFMeQrRMU2/SuAJ9585c7f2FUpTco2KGG78I3n944Tg==
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Weinberg’s review of the Staten Island project,,
Date: November 23, 2002 at 9:14:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mentions unnamed “current” High Times big.

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:05:51 -0500
To: ibogaine@mindvox.om
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject:
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

http://shadow.mediafilter.org/shadow/S41/S41.IbogaineRev.html

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 8:48:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:21:31AM -0000], [Curtis  Hersch] wrote:
|
| Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
| spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
| paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
| Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
| real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
| of 2001, get this out.

<… Cut …>

Curtis,

Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.

Listen, please do not do this.  By “this” I mean start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list.  I realize this is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a timely manner.  The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with filters throwing 90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s still like, “holy fucking
shit.  No way.  No fucking way mahn…”

And the problem is, when people write one or two line messages that ask a
question, they usually get a reply.  When someone writes me 20 well
written paragraphs; it gets thrown into, “I should write this person a
thoughtful response” mailbox, and then just scrolls into oblivion because
I never have the time.  I apologize for that, and I know you’re a positive
person who makes good contributions to things and stuff.

Basically: yeah I know all that.  Please chill.  That was a piece of a
manuscript that went to Francis around the time he was finishing his Opium
book I think, and we were exchanging stuff about the imaginary
organization called TA.  Tits and Ass, whoopsie, I meant to say, Thinking
Anonymous, sort of the anti-12-step drivel group.  ‘Cept SMART appears to
already be that.  Anyway Lost Ark was one piece, then there is Pieces of
Mind, Spirits, Two Primary Colors Having an Argument, and some other shit.

It has all been reorganized and pulled and the timeline is solid.  It goes
from roughly 1994 and the fall of MindVox, to the very start of 2000, a
few months after I came back from Thailand.  Going further back or
forward, and it is too much text.  It will come in at roughly 125K words
after editing — mine — probably 100K after whomever the editor is,
finishes slicing n’ dicing it.  I was trying to compress all experience
covering ’bout a decade into one book, and there’s just too much of it,
I’ve got enough for 3-5 books.  I just need to hit the finish line on the
first one.

The main problem is that it’s just a huge amount of work.  What is in Lost
Ark is solid, since it’s written in 1999 after I am more or less halfway
together, and pulling data from laptop to Sun, to OS/X; but basically
pulling data.  1994-96 is shit splattered all over the place, and 96 –
early ’99 is… I have roughly 800 pages of handwritten notebooks.  Which
are crumpled, have ashes, blood, dirt, coffee stains, splattered all over
’em literally — not just figuratively.  This adds character and works
wonders to pull me back into the spaces where it was all written, just in
case the words weren’t enough, but attempting to scan it in results in
’bout 1600 pages of this:

I’
–Jf~t ~~~f+~
;r ,1
~$ w~ w~nd on qown the +o~~( our shadows t~+~er t~~ ffปF ~p~ts…,
~~d ~eppelin ,
…time spins, as moments and fraQmenrs stream throuqh my fietd
of perception, and I’m back once more in the place tqat’s no longer here,
p~t
falling from there. Shapes and colors have yet to r~q~in their solid,
ab$oluteness, lines reach out and keep going, nev~r r~~~ly acknowledging
~h~ir
I
boundaries, as rainbow washes spray over the surface 9# monochrome walls,
burning their light and darkness across a slashed and blurred tapestry of
perpetual motion.
Qft~~~P Q
f:j,n,t~~f~R~f A~ts, places, t:~,l+R~~’ ~+1;It+ft~g time, fo~fii
s
nfeama Or! , ,!”‘, , ‘ :1’, “!
‘1,.~./f'”~TI;!.: ;’;”\;”:” Ii’ ;,
1 ” : ‘. ‘;i” , , , , \I 1 …~, \ 1, 1
, c –” I;. i
;’ , ! , , ‘ ~,,’ 1
“‘
l
.j’
, .’1\
I
i –
,

That’s a major fucking pain in the ass to sift through, figure out what to
pull, and for the most part just copy by hand since even the best OCR
software I have ever found, that will attempt to scan in handwriting once
“taught” is not managing to do this with what I’ve got.

Doan’ worry, it’s coming.

Patrick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 4:10:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Watching the blood shoot up my rig’s neck just prior
to the bang was ALWAYS ever so much more exciting.

well in that perspective, who could argue?

while in this “vein” of discussion, the taste of a well balanced speedball
hitting the back of my throat and the resulting ebb & flow was The best part of
any given day, in “the life”.

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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 10:56:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Watching the blood shoot up my rig’s neck just prior
to the bang was ALWAYS ever so much more exciting.

Thanks for that “picture”, I remember it well… gives
me the shivers now (thankfully).

Brett

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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Yoga
Date: November 23, 2002 at 10:50:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nic

You certainly don’t have to preach to me about Yoga in
recovery, it is absolutely wonderful stuff – far
beyond just exercise. I don’t know much about Tai Chi
(startin to sniff at it though) but understand the
benefit is along similar lines. Because I have
physical issues the Yoga is a better fit for me.

This is the sort of thing I would like to
seesacramentacrement site – in the what else to do in
recovery list after doing iboga/ibogaine.

What you get with Yoga

Learn how to be quite, how to quiet the mind, body and
spirit – basically learn how to be at peace.

Meditation – I actually get high (shhhh, the Thought
Control police might be listening) on the stuff.
Basically how to SHUT IT UP and relax. NOTE, those who
have done ibogaine will notice a difference in their
meditation, yoga brings “it” back. Either Yoga or
Ibogaine can for instance get you to very same ether.

Learn how to breath properly – which relaxes the mind
and then the body. It is a very simple relaxation
technique that is highly effective and unfortunately
seldom used. You can often “break” any emotional
crisis/thought pattern by simply breathing in to the
count of 4, hold for 4, out to the count of 4, wait 4
and repeat 3 times – to me it is as effective as
Rescue Remedy.

The simple act of learning something new, learning
anything new and “healthy” for an addict is always a
+++.

“GYM” type yoga classes do not usually get into the
finer points of Yoga and are often far too short to do
much other than a good exercise/stretch.

If you are just starting out in Yoga a few pointers.

If you get one of those 22 year old “kids” as an
instructor (who thinks everyone else has a 22 year old
body) and they do not respect your body, leave. Yoga
done without respect can injure you. The instructor
should also warm you up before doing more intense
postures and include periods of relaxation.

Listen to your body, do not force it, gently nudge it,
let gravity pull you, breath into stretches. IF (like
me) you have had injuries/surgeries, there are spots
that are just going to hurt a bit and take some
convincing, just be a littpersistentrsistant.

Easy does it, sometimes in a couple weeks “THINGS”
start to move around causing some pain, just back off
a bit and continue on, it usually passes in a few more
weeks. This is NOT a signal to stop yoga, if there are
things you can’t do, then don’t do them.

Progress is slow and steady, it takes months to learn
and condition the body/mind. Do not try to compete
with anyone, even yourself, there are good days and
days you will be a little off, it is not a contest.

Maintain posture at all times, you are “doing it” as
long as you maintain posture and get into the pose as
best you can without straining – however far that is
does not matter. What matters is posture, posture,
posture and that you do whatever you can without
breaking posture. It does NOT matter if you can only
go 1/2 inch in the position doing it correctly – that
is far better than going 1 inch (or 10) incorrectly.

Some people should not do certain poses. For instance
I have a neck injury so I don’t do the plow (though I
can) but I will do shoulder-stands or head-stands
without it irritating the neck. What you can and
cannot do you have to find out for yourself, gently.

All movement should be slow, steady, graceful (well,
djerkyr best…), no jurky movements, no bouncing,
nothing is fast. Get into a posture and get out of the
posture, not just end it – it is a fluid thing, in and
out.

Balance, besides the mind yoga gets the body working
in balance, gets the organs moving. It also helps
physical balance. I have an upper spinal cord injury,
when I first started Yoga my balance wadisability(as
in a disablility for sure), now it is better than
before the injury.

Most people CANNOT do yoga by themselves – meaning,
even if you know it, it just comes out better when
there are others to do it with – like in a class or a
group of people in your living room on mats. You also
CANNOT learn posture very well without an instructor –
something that also gets lost in Gym Yoga. Note, I am
a bit of a yoga snob, been taught by some of the best,
private classes, Yogi Hari’s Ashram (Mario Van Peebles
father-in-law – that is whflexibleearned to be so
flexable)…

Now if you are into Yoga, it can also be a wonderful
spiritually enlightening kind of thing with many
different forms and flavors, not just poses/exercises.

I just rented the Bunns of Steel (don’t laugh) Yoga
tape, it is outstanding (the Yogini is amazing, very
easy to watch). It will go through my “tape enhancer”
so I can see the picture more clearly, that copy
protection really fuzzes up the pic…

A very nice Yoga site.

http://www.santosha.com/

Brett

— flash gordan <eyebegrowing@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi all

well ive not partaken of the
mysterious plant called iboga nor
been addicted to opiates but looking at my own
experiences in this strange
life i would reccommend to anyone to start yoga or
tai chi as part of an
aftercare package , both improve physical health ,
give a person stronger
willpower to break old patterns and prevent new
destructive ones from
developing , develop greater self awareness , help
in learning to control
the slippery bugger called mind , releive tension
and stress , improve
energy levels , yah di yah di yah  could go on but i
fell like i’m preaching
,

take it easy

nic

From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:12:42 -0800 (PST)

I’ve been reading this list for about a month now.
And every time I think
I’ve
seen everything it keeps getting weirder. I’ve
reached the stage where I
don’t
know what to think about any of it anymore. A few
weeks past I thought
there
are some exceptions and that is all. Now I don’t
know anymore.

Instead of saying what’s already been said so many
times, let me ask
something
from the people here who are staying clean and have
failed with every
normal
aftercare treatment.

For those of you here, I have the strong impression
that any kind of
aftercare
which is “normal” did more harm then good for you.
Was there anything that
you
feel helped you, any place you went to that had a
good effect on you? I’d
really like to hear, I’ve reached the stage where I
think that any one
person’s road map who is in the “exception”
category is useless to everyone
else.

After reading Art’s post I looked up where Patrick
went to clear his head.
Unless there is something I missed, there are some
promotional sites
advertising Thamkrabok and then there are the
mountain of news stories
which
say something completely different. However you
want to add it up, you are
a
junkie who had days or a week clean and went to
Bangkok, to the middle of a
large scale heroin distribution ring to clear your
head and get off heroin.
I
have to conclude that any specific advice you give
anyone has nothing at
all
to do with what you yourself did. I’m starting to
see there is good reason
for
this. I’m not disrespecting you, I have nothing but
a lot of respect for
you,
but you’re from another planet.

What did other people who have had success do? I
keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed
here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the
people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative
after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this
list would recommend to
me?

Thank you

-s

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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 9:36:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeah,
I can honestly say that having a bowel movement was never, ever even once exciting, even strung out. Painful once or twice, but never exciting. Watching the blood shoot up my rig’s neck just prior to the bang was ALWAYS ever so much more exciting.
Why oh why do scatological discussions keep cropping up here?;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day

I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
>”Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>

From: “flash gordan” <eyebegrowing@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 23, 2002 at 6:08:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all

well ive not partaken of the mysterious plant called iboga nor been addicted to opiates but looking at my own experiences in this strange life i would reccommend to anyone to start yoga or tai chi as part of an aftercare package , both improve physical health , give a person stronger willpower to break old patterns and prevent new destructive ones from developing , develop greater self awareness , help in learning to control the slippery bugger called mind , releive tension and stress , improve energy levels , yah di yah di yah  could go on but i fell like i’m preaching ,

take it easy

nic

From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:12:42 -0800 (PST)

I’ve been reading this list for about a month now. And every time I think I’ve
seen everything it keeps getting weirder. I’ve reached the stage where I don’t
know what to think about any of it anymore. A few weeks past I thought there
are some exceptions and that is all. Now I don’t know anymore.

Instead of saying what’s already been said so many times, let me ask something
from the people here who are staying clean and have failed with every normal
aftercare treatment.

For those of you here, I have the strong impression that any kind of aftercare
which is “normal” did more harm then good for you. Was there anything that you
feel helped you, any place you went to that had a good effect on you? I’d
really like to hear, I’ve reached the stage where I think that any one
person’s road map who is in the “exception” category is useless to everyone
else.

After reading Art’s post I looked up where Patrick went to clear his head.
Unless there is something I missed, there are some promotional sites
advertising Thamkrabok and then there are the mountain of news stories which
say something completely different. However you want to add it up, you are a
junkie who had days or a week clean and went to Bangkok, to the middle of a
large scale heroin distribution ring to clear your head and get off heroin. I
have to conclude that any specific advice you give anyone has nothing at all
to do with what you yourself did. I’m starting to see there is good reason for
this. I’m not disrespecting you, I have nothing but a lot of respect for you,
but you’re from another planet.

What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to me?

Thank you

-s

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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 4:29:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I dunno. digging for boulders was a drag.

— Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 2:18:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dogg I’ve never said anything to you before because I thought you were
either totally crazy or really smart all you ever post are
incomprehensible physics papers so I can’t tell. The fact that I just
now realize that more then half of everything I ever take which is not
pot, may be coming from your basement or UFO or for all I know military
hanger in middle america. Just scared the crap out of me.

.:vector:.

— Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com> wrote:
I’ll buy it and I only read reference books and PKD and some few
exceptions. You write excellently. I am willing to make exception.

Here are some sites that have been interesting a much longer then 15
minutes. All are good sources.

Open MindVox, I will have much input on synthesis and physics
section.

http://www.aitests.com/
http://www.laboratorydevices.com/index.cfm
http://solvdb.ncms.org/SOLV01.htm
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/
http://www.chem.com/
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/
http://balances.com/

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From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 2:03:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ll buy it and I only read reference books and PKD and some few exceptions. You write excellently. I am willing to make exception.

Here are some sites that have been interesting a much longer then 15 minutes. All are good sources.

Open MindVox, I will have much input on synthesis and physics section.

http://www.aitests.com/
http://www.laboratorydevices.com/index.cfm
http://solvdb.ncms.org/SOLV01.htm
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/
http://www.chem.com/
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/
http://balances.com/

— Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah but does it have a lot of dirt on people? 🙂

.:vector:.

Sites that have been interesting for the last 15 minutes. They are all
halfway decent and all rank somewhere below 2 million with me and
probably 2 other people having ever read them. I feel it my duty that
at least 5 people who are bored click the links.

http://home.thedrugsindex.org/
http://www.ambitiousaddict.com/
http://www.consciousdreams.nl/
http://www.intrepidtrips.com/
http://www.leary.com/

The last one is posted with my apology to Drew Ross who likes to post
really long rants about how 5 hash dealers and 20 hanger ons ruined his
site and took credit for it. Don’t pout your name is still in the
Webbies 50 times ina row 🙂

— Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
of 2001, get this out.

What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is
Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin
and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is
185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything
imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s
tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote,
the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece.  Your agent’s name is
on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the
biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL
MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest
fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people
were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen
if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw
in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.

The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will
steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of
why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and
addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it.
This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.

Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version
to publishers 😉

Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the
truth.
I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this
in person bro! 🙂
Curtis

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:43:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hella dirt. But no names attached to it. The only people named that I recognized are positive. Some from this list. The only exception is Deborah Mash who is close to walking on water in his book. Everyone else gets a shotgun blast to the face 😉

I often wondered why Tim Leary’s site was last updated in 1999. Now I know 😉 Good show Drew. He’s not cutting any checks from beyond the grave is he? 😉

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Vector Vector wrote :
Yeah but does it have a lot of dirt on people? 🙂

.:vector:.

Sites that have been interesting for the last 15 minutes. They are all
halfway decent and all rank somewhere below 2 million with me and
probably 2 other people having ever read them. I feel it my duty that
at least 5 people who are bored click the links.

http://home.thedrugsindex.org/
http://www.ambitiousaddict.com/
http://www.consciousdreams.nl/
http://www.intrepidtrips.com/
http://www.leary.com/

The last one is posted with my apology to Drew Ross who likes to post
really long rants about how 5 hash dealers and 20 hanger ons ruined his
site and took credit for it. Don’t pout your name is still in the
Webbies 50 times ina row 🙂

— Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
>
> Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
> spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
> paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
> Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
> real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
> of 2001, get this out.
>
> What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is
> Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin
> and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is
> 185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything
> imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s
> tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote,
> the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece.  Your agent’s name is
> on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the
> biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL
> MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest
> fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people
> were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen
> if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw
> in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.
>
> The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will
> steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of
> why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and
> addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it.
> This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.
>
> Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version
> to publishers 😉
>
> Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the
> truth.
> I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this
> in person bro! 🙂
> Curtis

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:36:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeah but does it have a lot of dirt on people? 🙂

.:vector:.

Sites that have been interesting for the last 15 minutes. They are all
halfway decent and all rank somewhere below 2 million with me and
probably 2 other people having ever read them. I feel it my duty that
at least 5 people who are bored click the links.

http://home.thedrugsindex.org/
http://www.ambitiousaddict.com/
http://www.consciousdreams.nl/
http://www.intrepidtrips.com/
http://www.leary.com/

The last one is posted with my apology to Drew Ross who likes to post
really long rants about how 5 hash dealers and 20 hanger ons ruined his
site and took credit for it. Don’t pout your name is still in the
Webbies 50 times ina row 🙂

— Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
of 2001, get this out.

What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is
Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin
and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is
185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything
imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s
tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote,
the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece.  Your agent’s name is
on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the
biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL
MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest
fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people
were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen
if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw
in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.

The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will
steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of
why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and
addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it.
This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.

Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version
to publishers 😉

Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the
truth.
I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this
in person bro! 🙂
Curtis

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:21:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end of 2001, get this out.

What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is 185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote, the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece.  Your agent’s name is on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.

The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it. This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.

Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version to publishers 😉

Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the truth.
I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this in person bro! 🙂
Curtis

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:18:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”

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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 22, 2002 at 8:23:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”

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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) Fw: Practical Logistics Re: Light Bulbs
Date: November 22, 2002 at 5:14:36 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is pretty funny, so in the interest of fun, I pass it on.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: CERJ@igc.org
To: CERJ@igc.org
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: Practical Logistics Re: Light Bulbs

Reading this might help one appreciate the CERJ list more.  Now believe it
or not, one of the Quaker lists did actually field an inquiry recently about
how to change light bulbs!  The energy-saving variety, of course! — John
Wilmerding

Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb?

A: 1,331:

1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb
has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently.

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.

53 to flame the spell checkers

156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb
discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list.

41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.

109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this
email exchange to alt.lite.bulb

203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.

111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are all use light
bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list.

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique, and what brands are faulty.

27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected
URLs.

3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.

33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
and footers, and then add “Me Too.”

12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy.

19 to quote the “Me Too’s” to say, “Me Three.”

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.

1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.

47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it
here.

143 votes for alt.lite.bulb.

==================================
CERJ@igc.org            wilmerding@earthlink.net
——————————————-
John Wilmerding, Convener and List Manager
Coalition for Equity-Restorative Justice (CERJ)
1 Chestnut Hill, Brattleboro, VT, ZIP: 05301-6073
Phone: 1-802-254-2826 | 1-802-380-0664 (cellular)
CERJ was founded in New York in May, 1997.
——————————————-
“Work together to reinvent justice using methods
that are fair; that conserve, restore, and even
create harmony, equity and good will in society.”
——————————————-
To join (or leave) the CERJ email list, kindly send
me an email message at wilmerding@earthlink.net
or at cerj@igc.org.  I’ll need your first & last name,
your email address, and your state, province or
country of residence.  Thank you!  — John W.
==================================

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [drugwar] ONDCP head makes fool of himself in front of Vancouver Board of Trade
Date: November 22, 2002 at 9:35:27 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for posting this Tim, this is really great stuff. Most of the Canadian press coverage, as I note in this morning’s link at drugwar.com, is not the typical, lap-dog style of coverage the prohibitionists have grown far too accustomed to here in the US.
Besides, Emory is genuinely funny in his intro piece, and the interview with the hash smoker in the cafe at the end of the pot-tv segment is classic.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Tim Meehan
To: cmap@mapinc.org ; mapster@coollist.com ; maptalk@mapinc.org ; drctalk@drcnet.org ; drugwar@mindvox.com
Cc: John_P._Walters@ondcp.eop.gov
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:52 PM
Subject: [drugwar] ONDCP head makes fool of himself in front of Vancouver Board of Trade

***PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY***

I say we should give Mr. Walters an education in logic and rhetoric
(hint: argument from authority does not convince people, Johnny, you
come of sounding like the bully you think you are) as well as
introducing ourselves. His email is John_P._Walters@ondcp.eop.gov, and
I encourage to make sure that the next time this happens — and
believe me, it will — he will have heard of us.

In the last two years, for the first time, we had more teenagers
seeking treatment for marijuana dependency than for alcohol, which
never used to be the case because of the greater availability of
alcohol–

(You’re lying!  You’re lying! *unintelligible[1]*)

You’re entitled to your own opinion–

(Yes!)

You’re entitled to do whatever you want, speak whenever you want, but
I don’t think you’re entitled to you own facts.

(*You* don’t have them.)

Shouting people down…shouting people down doesn’t make what you say
true.

(It doesn’t make what *you* say true.)

Well, let me just say one thing about that. I’m a public official.  I
am subject to scrutiny of the press, of the congress, of officials at
various levels. What I say, what I write, what I’m responsible for can
be questioned or debated.  I never heard of you.

— CBC News, Canada Now, “The Politics of Prohibition” November 20,
2002

[1] If you see the report
(http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-1640.html) you can
hear some applause — likely coming from prohibitionist troublemakers
Toby Hinton and Al Arsenault — trying to drown out what the BCMP
table was saying.  (Their words in brackets.)


“I am sitting here in the smallest room in my house, with your
letter of criticism before me.  Soon, it will be behind me.”
–Max Reger

<]=———————————————————————–=[>
[ Moderated by: Preston Peet | http://www.drugwar.com | Andria E-Mordaunt ]
|          -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=-          |
|             To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com             |
[   DrugWar List in Digest Format: drugwar-digest-subscribe@mindvox.com   ]
<]=———————————————————————–=[>

From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 22, 2002 at 1:21:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

And another list, to isolate people who write one sentence and quote 2000 lines of someone else’s messages. Twice in a row no less.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:15:56 -0800 “R. B. Gordon” <rblgordon@yahoo.com> wrote:

Maybe we need a list for those of us who are dealing
with having our children on drugs and how to cope.

RBL

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: “R. B. Gordon” <rblgordon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 22, 2002 at 1:15:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Maybe we need a list for those of us who are dealing
with having our children on drugs and how to cope.

RBL

— “jon r. ludlam” <seraphina@compuserve.com> wrote:
Dear Art  ( arthernandez1999@yahoo.com),
I have read and reread your post to Patrick. I am
VERY NEW on this web
site, and certainly claim NO EXPERTISE in the
matters, however I have
actively lurked on the predecessor board for 4-5
years. My knowledge was
limited to what I have read on this and other Web
Sites pertaining to this
form of treatment, until 2 weeks ago. In the
previous week I had been
through the low point of my Son’s ten year
addiction. He jumped out a
window 2 1/2 stories above ground level, had two
Grand Mal Seizures,
numerous Petit Mal seizures, drove me down
Interstate 95 at 110 MPH at
night in the driving rain and announced that he was
going to kill both of
us, (I had to remove the keys three times from the
ignition, but reinserted
them each time when it became evident that he had no
steering and very
limited brakes.) When I asked if he had been taking
his medicines he took a
handful of his antidepressant and swallowed them. I
could go on, but I
think you get the picture. I was ABSOLUTELY certain
that if something was
not done Quickly, I would loose him, as he
repeatedly told me he wanted to
die and intended to accomplish same.
I do not cut and paste in replys as the
redundancy seems to cloud
the response, I however shall attempt to reply to
the questions that I can
now answer.

Understand that being of exceptional
intelligence is a liability in
life, as much as an asset. (That is another
subject.)
I had spoken to my Son about Ibogaine many times and
he rejected the idea
summarily. When a friend of his mentioned it he
seemed responsive initially
and then NIXED the idea, saying that he was opposed
to mind altering drugs.
He was using 12-20 bags of heroin a day and was on
130 MG of methadone
daily, cocaine, Benzos, and had,  in the past, used
large quantitys of LSD.
The 130 MG of methadone a day is enough to preclude
him from most if not
all detox/rehab programs in this country. He has
been to 9 of them plus we
have done some home detoxes as well. He is diagnosed
as Bi-Polar,
Personality Disorder Antisocial and NOS, Panic
Disorder,
Obsesive/Compulsive and more from three different
Institutions, as well as
two additional court ordered evaluations.
Without getting into who did what, two pair
of handcuffs were
acquired and utilized, withdrawal set in and he
asked for the treatment, as
he was told that it would ameliorate the withdrawal
symptoms. He got the
treatment according to protocall and is NOT USING
illicit drugs, and claims
that he suffered NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS, says his
drug use is behind him
and is mad as hell at me.
I have never used illicit substances, my son
took his first college
classes when he was 10 years old at UVA Summer
session in Charlottsville
Va, and got nothing less than an A for a grade. The
State of Virginia
solicited and paid for this as part of an
experiment. I was opposed to
this, but my wife was not, and she accepted when it
was offered the second
time while I was on a trip, working away from home.

There are many compassionate people on this
Board, and they have
lived it instead of observed it, so I am just one
voice in the wilderness,
but I KNOW IT WORKS, and nothing in the past has. He
has used the first day
out of programs, and out of jail, hell, he has been
caught using in
programs. I have been told that this treatment
RESETS THE BRAIN and I
believe it.

IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are
protocalls for this
treatment that include EKG, and liver function, they
MUST be followed. Test
Dosing for tolerance is also IMPERATIVE. Get a Guide
to get through this.
This is not a walk in the park for the patient nor
the guide. My
observation is that there is no risk of addiction to
this treatment as it
is REVULSIVE as well as EFFECTIVE. I.E some
vomiting, numerous bowl
function misfires, a few days of musical bathrooms,
beds, bedrooms, stairs,
and sofas. There is a necessity for followthrough
after treatment. If
restraint is necessary to save your Son, use it,
however once the treatment
starts be as compassionate as can be and then some.
You do not want him so
angry that he will try to prove to you that the
treatment will not work,
and compassion helps people find the LIGHT I had to
decide if I was
concerned for my own consequences, or saving my sons
life, I chose the
latter with trepidation. HAVE PLENTY OF HELP AND
MAKE SURE THAT NO ONE
AROUND CAN MAKE ANY OUTSIDE CALLS (911) LIKE
GIRLFRIENDS of his. Do NOT
Quit on your Son, Jail only gives you a rest, it
does not heal your Son.
3X3=9X20=180
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this.
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
Respectfully Yours,
John Seraphina

__________________________________________________
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From: “R. B. Gordon” <rblgordon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 22, 2002 at 1:14:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I want to say amen to all that, you are not alone.

RBL

— Art Hernandez <arthernandez1999@yahoo.com> wrote:

Patrick, I’ve too sent you mail at least twice and
never receive any replies. It wasn’t sent to kiss up
to you or waste your time, I understand you’re very
busy but please reply to me, I will send one more
email after this to the list.

I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to
right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic
depression,
which I understand you are too. I’ve met many people
who are gifted at science, writing, speaking, etc
but
I’ve never met anyone who moves back and forth
through
all that, you’re not writing technical papers,
you’re
writing prose that somehow mixes all of that and
makes
it connect to people. That’s remarkable. I can read
you and get the same effect as taking LSD.

It took me a long time before I wrote you even once
because you’re someone I don’t know how to approach.
I
know you have a very colorful past and have applied
your mind in ways that have upset a lot of people.
But
in reading this list for months I’ve never seen you
attack anyone, I think you’re a really good person,
please take a little time to just reply to me.

I have a son, he’s 31 years old now. He finished
high
school at 15, he received his BS at 20, he is not
like
you but he is very smart. What I have now and have
had
for almost 5 years is someone who has to be told
that
he smells and needs to take a shower and change his
clothes. He does nothing but more heroin. I am
watching running sores on his arms get bigger and he
doesn’t stop. I don’t know what to do anymore, he
has
been to detox so many times, he has been to
treatment,
he always leaves treatment, I have taken him to
psychiatrists, counselors, everything. Nothing
works.
I don’t know how to help him anymore, looking at him
now you would never believe what he was 5 years ago.

I have noticed that many on this list have high
regard
for entheogenic drugs, but I don’t know how or if
that
would help because I don’t understand how he can
take
LSD, then do crack and heroin all in the same day. I
have done LSD and have great respect and thanks, but
he is not like that.

What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to
do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him? I’ve read
most of what you’re written about addiction and you
say almost the same things that he says, that it’s a
bad joke run my idiots. The problem is I don’t know
where to find anyone as smart as he is, or how to
help
him. The difference is you made it, he’s not going
to
make it. The best I can hope for right now is that
he’ll go to jail for a little while and that will
slow
down the phone call that my son is dead somewhere. I
keep waiting for that.

How do I help him?

I will attend the Seattle conference and would love
to
hear you speak, please I will pay for your time if
you
will talk with my son, or can do anything to help
him.
I don’t know what to do anymore and no matter who I
send him to he tells me they are stupid and they
tell
me that he is beyond therapy and don’t know what to
do
with him so send him to someone else.

I believe that conventional treatment will not work
for some people, but where do I send him for
unconventional treatment after ibogaine? I’ve even
read about where you went, but I don’t understand
that
either. Thamkrabok appears in every newspaper
listing
as being a temple that is a front for one of the
largest heroin smuggling operations by the tribe
people in Thailand and reading the latest reports
from
the Bangkok post the army and the drug smugglers
have
blown up parts of it and are vacating 30,000 people
from the area. Whatever it was, it isn’t there
anymore.

This is like saying you went to a crackhouse to
clear
your head after doing ibogaine. I don’t understand
how
that could have worked for you. Which is where I
started, I don’t understand how you do what you’ve
done, I don’t understand how to help my son and I
can’t find anyone else who does either.

Please reply to my email.
AH

— Alison Senepart <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
Poor rat..   I can relate to that whole thing.   I
havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for
a
while now.  Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about.  I can stay clean for months at a time but
every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back
to
reality, although it was
so good at the time.   Am pretty constant on 10mgs
methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and
hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future.  My partner is
on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down.
Guess
different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure
out
their own solution.??
Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body
weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox

Hi, I found this through reading the addiction
series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t
focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the
best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t
reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would
please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does
it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read
some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all
the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes
but
i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use
heroin
not very much crack.

thank you any information appreciated. I did try
to
send email but its never replied to :-((

laurie

<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com

Yo, that wasn’t me.  That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I

Addiction?

Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful,
mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and
operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.

But unstable and FLYING out of everything.

Or was that my universal remote…

The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.

People create theories in an attempt to
understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who
lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the
events
in question.

Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is
awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it
destroys
things.  I will never do fire again!  In fact I
will
gather together groups of other people who have
all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire
is
awful, to make myself feel better.

Yeah, well, okay.  If that works for you,
fabulous.
But ya know what?  It’s not the “correct”
solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally
wrong

or more specifically, incomplete.  Because when
you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from
death.

And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively
using
drugs…  it’s not all that different from the
one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives.  Most people are not all
that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most
of
the
time.  The only thing that separates you from
them,
is
you have partially learned something they don’t
know
about.  If you’re feeling like shit, or even if
you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high –
you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or
that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to
the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but
somehow
totally different.

Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.

What all this means is: congratulations, you’re
human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek
altered
states of consciousness.  Sex, drugs, rock n’
roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles
until
they get dizzy.  It’s all the same thing.

If you have the specific goal of moving away from
drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances,
the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for
you,
or
the consequences of continued use —  in current
society —  are too high a price to pay.  I can
offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.

To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related
systems;
psychology, biology and neurology.  We can for
example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular
molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.

Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…?  Did the rat go to rodent therapy
and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into
its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to
a
higher power of its understanding?  Uhm…
Probably
not.  The only higher power it has come into
contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be
found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.

However, this is the part where it all spins in
the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a
higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it
very
little time to arrive at the understanding,
“hmmm,
I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with
sharp
objects.  The only thing I have to look forward
to
is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw
me
in
the garbage.  Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t
I
hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not
like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>

__________________________________________________
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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 9:18:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Vector,

I was really just joshing with you.  ALthough I could use a secretary. hmmm…

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:44:33 -0800 (PST)

I’m not your secretery. Why don’t you save out your msg and repost it
yourself every time somebody asks that question every 2 weeks. I save
out the msgs I think are funny or I like to read, I’m not the list
mainetenence person.

Someone should just write a FAQ of the most frequenty asked questions
and answers on this list and add it to the list info, which would take
a hour at most. If patrick doesn’t have the time then there at least 20
people here who post huge many paragraph articulate msgs every week and
between some of them and patrick I’m sure it’d get done. Because alot
of it is repetitive and this is one of the highest traffic lists I am
on.

.:vector:.

— Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the
> philosophies you
> will be headed in the right direction.  There is a lot more to SMART
> than
> what I’ve mentioned here.
>
> Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone
> asks a
> similar question.
>
> Is ibogaine a proper noun?  Should I spell it with a capitol I?
>
> Randy Hencken

__________________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 7:44:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m not your secretery. Why don’t you save out your msg and repost it
yourself every time somebody asks that question every 2 weeks. I save
out the msgs I think are funny or I like to read, I’m not the list
mainetenence person.

Someone should just write a FAQ of the most frequenty asked questions
and answers on this list and add it to the list info, which would take
a hour at most. If patrick doesn’t have the time then there at least 20
people here who post huge many paragraph articulate msgs every week and
between some of them and patrick I’m sure it’d get done. Because alot
of it is repetitive and this is one of the highest traffic lists I am
on.

.:vector:.

— Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:

Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the
philosophies you
will be headed in the right direction.  There is a lot more to SMART
than
what I’ve mentioned here.

Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone
asks a
similar question.

Is ibogaine a proper noun?  Should I spell it with a capitol I?

Randy Hencken

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 3:48:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to me?

I’ll chime in here, although I am starting to feel like some kind of SMART recovery bible thumper, just kidding (check out their web site at www.smartrecovery.org or burn in oops, bible thumping).  I have been clean off methadone, heroin and cocaine for almost 1.5 years.  After I did the ibogaine I attended Smart meetings once a week for about three months.  I attended a few more meetings over the next couple months, and then I “graduated” from the program.  I had made a change in my life and the urges to use dope had subsided.  Recently I attended a smart recovery coordinators conference and started a meeting here in San Diego on Tuesday nights.  I volunteer my time there because I like SMART and I like helping people.

Most people who quit addictive behaviors simply quit, without going to rehabs and 12-step meetings.  SMART, essentially, is a guideline teaching skills that those other people discovered on their own.  As opposed to most treatments, we do not try to force square pegs through circular holes. SMART is an acronym for Self Management And Recovery Training.  This means it is a program about taking care of you.  We do not have sponsors, we realize that only you are responsible for you.  We don’t have arbitrary steps for you to follow.  We do have a 4 point program: 1) Finding and maintaining the motivation to change your addictive behavior. 2) Learning how to cope with urges and cravings. 3) Problem solving and lastly 4) life style balance / lifestyle change.

As you may have noticed I refer to addiction as addictive behavior and not as a disease.  Smart recovery doesn’t buy into the disease theory.  We view addiction as a maladaptive behavior.   You probably started using your substance because it was fun or benefited you in some positive way; now you’re stuck with a bad habit.  You learned your addiction and you can unlearn it. SMART is about empowerment not powerlessness.

We discourage labeling yourself as an addict/alcoholic.  We believe that you will follow your thoughts or you will act the way you think about yourself.  If you label yourself then you are setting yourself up for failure or relapse.

We don’t count days, because we know how damaging it can be to lose all those days when you have a lapse.  Instead if you lapse come to a meeting and talk about it and hopefully you will lapse less frequently.  It is better to have had two lapses in two years then to be back at step one because of a little lapse.

SMART is based on rational thought and scientific study.  The program is willing to change as science changes.  SMART is a non-profit organization, so no one is trying to get rich off of your difficulties.

Some of the tools we work with in SMART are: rational emotive behavioral therapy (REBT), cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), destructive self talk awareness and refusal method (DISARM, which is our version of addictive voice recognition technique (AVRT) which was coined and is owned by Rational Recovery), disputing irrational beliefs (DIB’s) and there are many more.  We try to do actual work at a meeting.

We don’t sit around being gloomy and telling war stories.  We don’t linger in the past.  SMART is about creating a better future.

If there aren’t meetings near you, start one.  It doesn’t take a professional.  All you need to do is educate yourself about the philosophies of SMART.  You can find these ideas in their manual, on the web and in their recommended readings.  We need more SMART meetings.  We need to create a voice as loud as the twelve stepper’s voice.  People in the throws of addiction don’t know that we exist.  They are busy learning harmful dogma that keeps them wrapped up in their addiction.  If you have time and you are tired of the twelve steps get involved in SMART.  Help out your neighbors.

Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the philosophies you will be headed in the right direction.  There is a lot more to SMART than what I’ve mentioned here.

Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone asks a similar question.

Is ibogaine a proper noun?  Should I spell it with a capitol I?

Randy Hencken

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Order Iboga from Indra, Marco & Ethnogarden
Date: November 21, 2002 at 2:28:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, it does work fine now.

By the way, I am getting 50 grams of Indra Extract from Indra.dk, I am
presuming no one has had any problems ordering, also am going to get
Ibogaine Hydrochloride also from Marco. Also reordered 50 grams of
ethnogarden also. Am interested in working with the three known formats of
iboga to see how patients respond to each.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html

Even with calendar spelled correctly, there is no
link.

http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html

Works just fine for me

Brett

By the way, our new Iboga Therapy House is doing
well, all our patients are
transformed!

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox

In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM,
stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:

What did other people who have had success do? I
keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed
here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only
the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any
alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on
this list would recommend
to me?

Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement
to help make ibogaine
available.  Petition your government, protest,
write letters and hope that
a
lot of people are also getting treated who can
join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will
keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having
nothing to do.  My
perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is
ibogaine.  No one has come
up
with anything significantly different on the
aftercare side that is more
or
less beneficial to some than to others.  So, if
nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do.
Regardless of what it
is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want
to avoid.

Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:29:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/21/02 1:17:55 PM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:

The calendar works fine.  It’s the NYC Intl conference link (7th/8th)
that doesn’t work. This is because nothing has been created for those
links. Howard is awaiting finalization of contracts.

It is going up bit by bit.

www.ibogaine.org/calendar.html

just click on the International conference set for NYC feb 7/8 (hopefully).
I will place some additions when I return from the Ibogaine Working Group
meeting late this evening.

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:26:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/21/02 12:45:43 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:

Hi mark,

Thanks for pointing out my spelling error for the url.

Goto:  www.ibogaine.org/calendar.html

It works for me.  Maybe it is sort of like ibogaine and works for some people
sometime.  Sometimes when I cut and past urls “%20” gets inserted into the
address.

Howard

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:16:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The calendar works fine.  It’s the NYC Intl conference link (7th/8th)
that doesn’t work. This is because nothing has been created for those
links. Howard is awaiting finalization of contracts.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:03:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Even with calendar spelled correctly, there is no
link.

http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html

Works just fine for me

Brett

By the way, our new Iboga Therapy House is doing
well, all our patients are
transformed!

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox

In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM,
stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:

What did other people who have had success do? I
keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed
here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only
the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any
alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on
this list would recommend
to me?

Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement
to help make ibogaine
available.  Petition your government, protest,
write letters and hope that
a
lot of people are also getting treated who can
join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will
keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having
nothing to do.  My
perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is
ibogaine.  No one has come
up
with anything significantly different on the
aftercare side that is more
or
less beneficial to some than to others.  So, if
nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do.
Regardless of what it
is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want
to avoid.

Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 12:27:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, that url is not functional (ibogaine.org/calender.html)

Even with calendar spelled correctly, there is no link.

By the way, our new Iboga Therapy House is doing well, all our patients are
transformed!

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox

In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM, stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:

What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend
to me?

Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement to help make ibogaine
available.  Petition your government, protest, write letters and hope that
a
lot of people are also getting treated who can join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having nothing to do.  My
perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is ibogaine.  No one has come
up
with anything significantly different on the aftercare side that is more
or
less beneficial to some than to others.  So, if nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do.  Regardless of what it
is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want to avoid.

Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 10:05:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM, stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:

What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend
to me?

Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement to help make ibogaine
available.  Petition your government, protest, write letters and hope that a
lot of people are also getting treated who can join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having nothing to do.  My perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is ibogaine.  No one has come up
with anything significantly different on the aftercare side that is more or
less beneficial to some than to others.  So, if nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do.  Regardless of what it is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want to avoid.

Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html

Howard

From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] For Steve. Re: Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:52:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

i don’t know about thailand and sheets of lsd and that crazy shit, but if you have $50 i know a house connect down the block who will let you drop acid on his couch and watch him deal heroin so you get a taste of the patrick experience.

lot cheaper.

all ya niggaz are hella mad

fuck yeah

whoever the g is who keeps posting the time travel physics papers, when you rev up your time machine go kill bill wilson and save the world a lot of pain. especially me. fuck the 12 step shit, 6 more months of this. what a joke

my tag line

“If you Experience Problems: Call your Dealer, Rent a Shrink, or go Buy a Gun”

solid advice

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:29:21 -0800 Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
To preface my message I’m not a drug addict and don’t do any drugs
I
want to stop doing. I don’t know anything about addiction except
what
I’ve read on this list, but just in reading this list and reposting
a
msg Patrick posted a few months ago this sounds pretty good to me
🙂
Most of the treatments people describe here sound really dismal.

Sorry Patrick they lost their saving throw as you probably know
by now.
And most of the temples and statues in the ashram are now back to
being
broken rocks on the ground.

.:vector:.

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

Hum . . .

THAILAND sez: Get The Hell Out!

I wonder if this will actually happen; possibly not, since it
has
been in
the perpetual process of happening since roughly the dawn of time,
or
40
years ago when a few hundred hmoung arrived and started to reproduce
a lot
— having not much else to do besides learn cultivation techniques
for
preTty PopPies in southern Thailand, and that birth control thing
not
having made a major inroads into the whole entire southeast Asia

which
by the way, prolly causes MOST of the AIDS splattered all over
those
countries, NOT bangin’ up, condoms not birth control pills I meant
to
say, I think, yeah that was it …  Where was I, oh yes, still
in
Miami,
but as I was saying, the army rolls in, LOOKS AROUND a lot, makes
a
Stern
Announcement in the Bangkok Post that SOME Sort of Severe Action
will
take
place, real soon now; and then goes back to sleep.  Since, mostly,

they
all arrived in this mountain range ‘cuz there’s an ashram there,
and
it’d
be Bad Karma to nuke an ashram in Thailand; although it might
be okay
if
it were located in Utah instead for instance.  Now then, as I
was
saying
Will the BAD PEOPLE destroy a perfect, beautiful, happy little
society for
tHe HeadLines, or will the whole entire Hmoung make their saving
throw,
thus avoiding CERTAIN DOOM!?!??!?

Who can say.  But I just felt strongly ALL OF YOU should be aware
of
this.

It’s a bummer all of them are so fixated on Buddha, if they looked
up
a
lil’ further, they’d find Shiva, who would just DESTROY the whole
entire
situation (inside his mind) and they could get back to resonating,

bangin’
up’, or buying shiny things, depending on what vibrational range
they
were
in at that particular time.  They’re very mellow and accepting
there,
which I appreciated a lot, I have never met any group of persons
who
were
so cheerfully corrupt before, it was neat, and made me feel good
about
myself, because everything was always all-good, unlike Mexico,
which
is
mostly not so cheerfully corrupt, it experiences a lot of guilt
about
all
that and HIDES the drugs inside Jesus statues and religious altars
and
things, but still firmly believes that chiva negra is one of the
Two
Great
Demons (the other being blanco of course, most especially when
you
SMOKE
the demon, much like crack, only non-culture centric…  Belize
is
very
professional in its corruption, it’s shiny and glossy and Right
Out
There,
whereas the Caribbean is more like Thailand, it’s mellow and
accepting and
easy-going mon, which I s’pose is not surprising.  America as
whole
is
completely inconsistent, and vibrations vary widely, sometimes
even
from
block to block, or time of day and phase of moon, when it is possible
to
absolutely resonate with your molecules and radiate within and
through
them, while at others no matter what you do, you seem to wind
up in
these
spirals made out of barbed wire which is shredding you as you
sink
through
bleeding quicksand, hmm, oh yeah, duh, i forgot to Go into The
Light.
But
I suppose that is just the Way of the World.  That is my opinion
at
this
very moment anyway, but it could change at any time.

Mostly, as a whole, this is THAILAND’s fault and the Hmoung cannot
be
held
responsible for the whole entire situation.  Since the laws there
change
every 3 hours or so, depending on how moody the King is feeling
that
day,
and the only part of the laws that ever remains consistent is
that it
is
okay for them to cultivate opium poppies and USE them, because
that
is
their cultural heritage, but they’re never, ever, at all, not
even
supposed to THINK ABOUT breaking it down into heroin and exporting
it.
That would be Very Naughty.

That’s it then,

Patrick

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—–
Version: Hush 2.2 (Java)
Note: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify

wlkEARECABkFAj3cgqMSHGdib3lAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEFpIFsKkr4lNMGUAmgN0
yHwsLp0BjGD363EvuQB+LHWGAKC7zS1erFSuXoWaLtSId7YrOuHHjA==
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—–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] For Steve. Re: Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:29:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To preface my message I’m not a drug addict and don’t do any drugs I
want to stop doing. I don’t know anything about addiction except what
I’ve read on this list, but just in reading this list and reposting a
msg Patrick posted a few months ago this sounds pretty good to me 🙂
Most of the treatments people describe here sound really dismal.

Sorry Patrick they lost their saving throw as you probably know by now.
And most of the temples and statues in the ashram are now back to being
broken rocks on the ground.

.:vector:.

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

Hum . . .

THAILAND sez: Get The Hell Out!

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:23jmCnJPXNcC:www.bangkokpost.net/110502_News/11May2002_news06.html+tham+krabok+thailand&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I wonder if this will actually happen; possibly not, since it has
been in
the perpetual process of happening since roughly the dawn of time, or
40
years ago when a few hundred hmoung arrived and started to reproduce
a lot
— having not much else to do besides learn cultivation techniques
for
preTty PopPies in southern Thailand, and that birth control thing not
having made a major inroads into the whole entire southeast Asia —
which
by the way, prolly causes MOST of the AIDS splattered all over those
countries, NOT bangin’ up, condoms not birth control pills I meant to
say, I think, yeah that was it …  Where was I, oh yes, still in
Miami,
but as I was saying, the army rolls in, LOOKS AROUND a lot, makes a
Stern
Announcement in the Bangkok Post that SOME Sort of Severe Action will
take
place, real soon now; and then goes back to sleep.  Since, mostly,
they
all arrived in this mountain range ‘cuz there’s an ashram there, and
it’d
be Bad Karma to nuke an ashram in Thailand; although it might be okay
if
it were located in Utah instead for instance.  Now then, as I was
saying
Will the BAD PEOPLE destroy a perfect, beautiful, happy little
society for
tHe HeadLines, or will the whole entire Hmoung make their saving
throw,
thus avoiding CERTAIN DOOM!?!??!?

Who can say.  But I just felt strongly ALL OF YOU should be aware of
this.

It’s a bummer all of them are so fixated on Buddha, if they looked up
a
lil’ further, they’d find Shiva, who would just DESTROY the whole
entire
situation (inside his mind) and they could get back to resonating,
bangin’
up’, or buying shiny things, depending on what vibrational range they
were
in at that particular time.  They’re very mellow and accepting there,
which I appreciated a lot, I have never met any group of persons who
were
so cheerfully corrupt before, it was neat, and made me feel good
about
myself, because everything was always all-good, unlike Mexico, which
is
mostly not so cheerfully corrupt, it experiences a lot of guilt about
all
that and HIDES the drugs inside Jesus statues and religious altars
and
things, but still firmly believes that chiva negra is one of the Two
Great
Demons (the other being blanco of course, most especially when you
SMOKE
the demon, much like crack, only non-culture centric…  Belize is
very
professional in its corruption, it’s shiny and glossy and Right Out
There,
whereas the Caribbean is more like Thailand, it’s mellow and
accepting and
easy-going mon, which I s’pose is not surprising.  America as whole
is
completely inconsistent, and vibrations vary widely, sometimes even
from
block to block, or time of day and phase of moon, when it is possible
to
absolutely resonate with your molecules and radiate within and
through
them, while at others no matter what you do, you seem to wind up in
these
spirals made out of barbed wire which is shredding you as you sink
through
bleeding quicksand, hmm, oh yeah, duh, i forgot to Go into The Light.
But
I suppose that is just the Way of the World.  That is my opinion at
this
very moment anyway, but it could change at any time.

Mostly, as a whole, this is THAILAND’s fault and the Hmoung cannot be
held
responsible for the whole entire situation.  Since the laws there
change
every 3 hours or so, depending on how moody the King is feeling that
day,
and the only part of the laws that ever remains consistent is that it
is
okay for them to cultivate opium poppies and USE them, because that
is
their cultural heritage, but they’re never, ever, at all, not even
supposed to THINK ABOUT breaking it down into heroin and exporting
it.
That would be Very Naughty.

That’s it then,

Patrick

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From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:12:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve been reading this list for about a month now. And every time I think I’ve
seen everything it keeps getting weirder. I’ve reached the stage where I don’t
know what to think about any of it anymore. A few weeks past I thought there
are some exceptions and that is all. Now I don’t know anymore.

Instead of saying what’s already been said so many times, let me ask something
from the people here who are staying clean and have failed with every normal
aftercare treatment.

For those of you here, I have the strong impression that any kind of aftercare
which is “normal” did more harm then good for you. Was there anything that you
feel helped you, any place you went to that had a good effect on you? I’d
really like to hear, I’ve reached the stage where I think that any one
person’s road map who is in the “exception” category is useless to everyone
else.

After reading Art’s post I looked up where Patrick went to clear his head.
Unless there is something I missed, there are some promotional sites
advertising Thamkrabok and then there are the mountain of news stories which
say something completely different. However you want to add it up, you are a
junkie who had days or a week clean and went to Bangkok, to the middle of a
large scale heroin distribution ring to clear your head and get off heroin. I
have to conclude that any specific advice you give anyone has nothing at all
to do with what you yourself did. I’m starting to see there is good reason for
this. I’m not disrespecting you, I have nothing but a lot of respect for you,
but you’re from another planet.

What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to me?

Thank you

-s

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From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] The ibogaine calendar links…
Date: November 19, 2002 at 11:32:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

She no work.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “jon r. ludlam” <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 20, 2002 at 5:34:03 AM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Art  ( arthernandez1999@yahoo.com),
I have read and reread your post to Patrick. I am VERY NEW on this web
site, and certainly claim NO EXPERTISE in the matters, however I have
actively lurked on the predecessor board for 4-5 years. My knowledge was
limited to what I have read on this and other Web Sites pertaining to this
form of treatment, until 2 weeks ago. In the previous week I had been
through the low point of my Son’s ten year addiction. He jumped out a
window 2 1/2 stories above ground level, had two Grand Mal Seizures,
numerous Petit Mal seizures, drove me down Interstate 95 at 110 MPH at
night in the driving rain and announced that he was going to kill both of
us, (I had to remove the keys three times from the ignition, but reinserted
them each time when it became evident that he had no steering and very
limited brakes.) When I asked if he had been taking his medicines he took a
handful of his antidepressant and swallowed them. I could go on, but I
think you get the picture. I was ABSOLUTELY certain that if something was
not done Quickly, I would loose him, as he repeatedly told me he wanted to
die and intended to accomplish same.
I do not cut and paste in replys as the redundancy seems to cloud
the response, I however shall attempt to reply to the questions that I can
now answer.

Understand that being of exceptional intelligence is a liability in
life, as much as an asset. (That is another subject.)
I had spoken to my Son about Ibogaine many times and he rejected the idea
summarily. When a friend of his mentioned it he seemed responsive initially
and then NIXED the idea, saying that he was opposed to mind altering drugs.
He was using 12-20 bags of heroin a day and was on 130 MG of methadone
daily, cocaine, Benzos, and had,  in the past, used large quantitys of LSD.
The 130 MG of methadone a day is enough to preclude him from most if not
all detox/rehab programs in this country. He has been to 9 of them plus we
have done some home detoxes as well. He is diagnosed as Bi-Polar,
Personality Disorder Antisocial and NOS, Panic Disorder,
Obsesive/Compulsive and more from three different Institutions, as well as
two additional court ordered evaluations.
Without getting into who did what, two pair of handcuffs were
acquired and utilized, withdrawal set in and he asked for the treatment, as
he was told that it would ameliorate the withdrawal symptoms. He got the
treatment according to protocall and is NOT USING illicit drugs, and claims
that he suffered NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS, says his drug use is behind him
and is mad as hell at me.
I have never used illicit substances, my son took his first college
classes when he was 10 years old at UVA Summer session in Charlottsville
Va, and got nothing less than an A for a grade. The State of Virginia
solicited and paid for this as part of an experiment. I was opposed to
this, but my wife was not, and she accepted when it was offered the second
time while I was on a trip, working away from home.

There are many compassionate people on this Board, and they have
lived it instead of observed it, so I am just one voice in the wilderness,
but I KNOW IT WORKS, and nothing in the past has. He has used the first day
out of programs, and out of jail, hell, he has been caught using in
programs. I have been told that this treatment RESETS THE BRAIN and I
believe it.

IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are protocalls for this
treatment that include EKG, and liver function, they MUST be followed. Test
Dosing for tolerance is also IMPERATIVE. Get a Guide to get through this.
This is not a walk in the park for the patient nor the guide. My
observation is that there is no risk of addiction to this treatment as it
is REVULSIVE as well as EFFECTIVE. I.E some vomiting, numerous bowl
function misfires, a few days of musical bathrooms, beds, bedrooms, stairs,
and sofas. There is a necessity for followthrough after treatment. If
restraint is necessary to save your Son, use it, however once the treatment
starts be as compassionate as can be and then some. You do not want him so
angry that he will try to prove to you that the treatment will not work,
and compassion helps people find the LIGHT I had to decide if I was
concerned for my own consequences, or saving my sons life, I chose the
latter with trepidation. HAVE PLENTY OF HELP AND MAKE SURE THAT NO ONE
AROUND CAN MAKE ANY OUTSIDE CALLS (911) LIKE GIRLFRIENDS of his. Do NOT
Quit on your Son, Jail only gives you a rest, it does not heal your Son.
3X3=9X20=180
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this.
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
Respectfully Yours,
John Seraphina

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Homeland Security Bill Passes into Law – Hackers are now Terrorists
Date: November 19, 2002 at 9:50:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=200211191121000150899

Tuesday, Nov. 19, 2002
GOP Wins Senate Homeland Bill Fight

WASHINGTON (AP) – The Senate defeated an attempt by Democrats to
kill what they called special interests measures in a homeland
security bill, bringing a lame-duck Congress close to granting
President Bush’s demand for a new Cabinet agency to protect
Americans from terrorists.

The Senate voted 52-47 to reject an amendment that would have
removed from the bill seven provisions that Democrats said were
favors to friends of Republicans. The president and his key
advisers actively lobbied wavering senators to defeat the
amendment, saying its approval could doom passage of the bill this
year.

With the amendment out of the way, the Senate was set to finish
work on the legislation Tuesday, ending five months of contentious
debate on how to carry out the most monumental reorganization of
the federal government in over half a century.

The House last week provisionally finished its work for the
year, and now can approve minor technical changes in the Senate
version without calling lawmakers back to Washington.

“The terrorists are not going to wait for a process that goes
on days, weeks or months,” said Senate GOP Leader Trent Lott of
Mississippi. “…We need to get this done and we need to do it
now.”

Had the Democratic amendment prevailed, House leaders would have
had to decide whether to accept that version or initiate new
negotiations.

Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, who will be the House majority leader
in January, said Monday he was willing to call the House back into
session to defend the president’s position.

Most Democrats, while supporting the homeland security bill,
balked at what they said were last-minute inclusions of special
interest favors unrelated to the nation’s security.

“It’s the Senate’s last chance to show the American people that
we are serious about placing some controls on this massive new
bureaucracy,” said Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., leading opponent of
the legislation.

The most controversial provision would have protected
pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits over the side effects of
vaccines they create. The protections would have been retroactive
to lawsuits already in court. Democrats said that among the
lawsuits that would have been thrown out were those involving
claims that mercury-based preservatives used in vaccines cause
autism in children.

The bill also includes liability protections for makers of
airport screening equipment and airport security firms and weakens
an amendment offered by the late Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., that
would have barred companies that set up offshore tax havens from
getting federal homeland security contracts.

Bush proposed the new department last June, saying the agency
that will combine 170,000 federal workers from 22 existing agencies
was needed to provide a united front against the terrorist threat
to the nation. It would be the biggest federal government
reorganization since Harry Truman created the Defense Department in
1947.

The House approved the legislation by a wide margin in July, but
Senate debate stalled for months, first over the labor rights of
employees in the new agency and now, over special interest
provisions.

The Senate, trying to wrap up its work for the year, could also
vote Tuesday on a bill that would have the government cover up to
$90 billion annually in insurance claims from any future terrorist
attacks.

The terrorism insurance bill has been one of the president’s top
priorities for more than a year. He says many new construction
projects have been slowed because builders must pay exorbitant
terrorism insurance premiums or find that such insurance is
unavailable.

Under the bill, approved by the House last week, for the next
three years taxpayers would cover up to 90 percent of insured
losses from major attacks, with the insurance industry covering up
to the first $15 billion in annual claims.

The Homeland Security bill is H.R. 5005.

The terrorism insurance bill is H.R. 3210

On the Net: Congress: http://thomas.loc.gov/

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From: “R. A. Venglarcik” <raven@sybercom.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 9:21:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just pump enough snow down there and I think we’ll have them iced 🙂

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:49 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art

In a message dated 11/19/02 4:24:36 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:

Do0D, you know cocaethylene is extremely dangerous and can keel you ded
meng.

“Really!?!?  Sounds excellent, where do I buy an ounce?”

A question might be does cocaethylene produce the cocaine/alcohol high
without the alcohol liver toxicity?  Possibly, it should be introduced
by
NIDA as a replacement/agonist therapy for cocaine as none exists.   As
for
ibogaine and NIDA well, NIDA and Ibogaine are a lot like that snow ball
in
hell.

Howard

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:26:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That was honest at least bro. Rick as usual had a good answer which is my own opinion too that I’ve said before. Don’t worry so much about what patrick is doing, worry more about what could work for you.

Do you drink every night and is that now a problem, do you do the weekend warrior thing that everyone does and then keep going into the middle of the week, do you have a real drinking problem yet or it sounds like you are more like getting worried that you might.

You’re on a ibogaine list and at least have been to the 12 steps to know that it isn’t something that draws you in, so you are at least at a stage that you know you are starting to have a problem and are looking for ways to solve it bro. So that is good.

There is a lot of good advice here and at least some of it has to apply to you. Brett gave a better sum up then I could, so the question is if you don’t want to do LSD then don’t, I don’t think anyone including Patrick has ever told anyone to do that and I don’t think your problem is anywhere near the level of that.

But as someone posted was it Jon? Ibogaine is supposed to have at least some effect on alcohol. You know where to get it, so what do you have to lose? Try and see what happens bro.

Thanks for being honest. I know that is hard sometimes. I did not want to dis you in any kind of way I only wanted to know what your deal was. Thanks bro.

And I just got the greatest tag line of all time, very nice 🙂

“The Lost Ark of the Covenant is Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head”

Peace out, sending you mail off list.
Curtis

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote :

My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school completely.

That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about it then.

That is my problem.

You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it was so funny then and you know it.

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.

Buying 8 balls.

My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate

“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”

That is my problem.

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:14:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It is very specialised and high end printing equipment. Our government is a big customer they use it to print different documents like bonds, stamps and money 😉 Its getting to the very basics of “let’s make some money” 😉

Their web site is one of the strangest things I’ve ever seen. I love their corporate news in engrish “company rates top human company. has not executed one worker yet in 2002” 😉

Haven’t been able to find Patrick clones so far, probably the world would not be able to handle that.

Peace out and print things 😉
Curtis

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 Richard Davis wrote :

What is a intaglio press? The only thing the internet finds is this, which doesn’t explain anything. it doesnt say what any of their equipment does and they are made in china.

http://www.beiren.com/english/products/intaglio.htm

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:27
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

>
>Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of myself and an Intaglio
>press (which would take care of that money thing in an hour or three).
>
>
>

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From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:58:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What is a intaglio press? The only thing the internet finds is this, which doesn’t explain anything. it doesnt say what any of their equipment does and they are made in china.

http://www.beiren.com/english/products/intaglio.htm

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:27
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of myself and an Intaglio
press (which would take care of that money thing in an hour or three).

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From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:58:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What can you expect from a guy with the last name Gooberman. Only something
truly evil would come from a name like that.

Chris

—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death

Lance Gooberman should have lost his license a long time ago. I know 2
people personally who have seen him and describe a person worse then the
worst drug dealer theyve ever dealt with.

My tag line for the day

“Post-human, Fully Deconstructed and Completely Incoherent”

I’ll have to think on that one.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:59:18
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.”  Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw

Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead.  Resnick and Gooberman
are —
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back.  Resnick is, well, whatever.  He’s okay.  He may or may not take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he
dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is attempting
to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.

Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt
paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED!  spin control,
and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and
Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit.  While Andre Waismann invented UROD, Lance
is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally sleazy.

Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox
him
using his own methodology.

I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.

Patrick

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From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:52:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lance Gooberman should have lost his license a long time ago. I know 2 people personally who have seen him and describe a person worse then the worst drug dealer theyve ever dealt with.

My tag line for the day

“Post-human, Fully Deconstructed and Completely Incoherent”

I’ll have to think on that one.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:59:18
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.”  Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw

Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead.  Resnick and Gooberman are —
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back.  Resnick is, well, whatever.  He’s okay.  He may or may not take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is attempting to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.

Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED!  spin control, and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit.  While Andre Waismann invented UROD, Lance is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally sleazy.

Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox him
using his own methodology.

I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.

Patrick

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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:54:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape  i bet
others will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me
goin back there  soon

Videotape exists. Can you come to the Ibogaine working group meeting
at 22 w. 27th, 5 th fl, on Thursday from 4 to 6 pm?

Dana/cnw

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 5:45:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 02:36:02PM -0800], [Carla Barnes] wrote:

| Thanks for posting that it made me feel a lot better.
| I always thought it was only me when you answer the
| phone in your house by yelling ‘what the hell do you
| want?’

I don’t do that.  Those are blatant lies and baseless allegations being
spread by my enemies.  Completely untrue and lacking merit.

| You know you can only stay high on stress for about 15
| more years before you start having heart attacks.
| Especially if you chain smoke and chug coffee 😉

Aha, yes, BUT.  I’m manic-depressive, thusly, for all the time I spend
bouncing off the walls and being superman, it is carefully BALANCED by all
the time I spend unable to form coherent thought and feeling like I want
to get into a fetal position and crawl under my bed.

Besides, I’ve hit the big 3-0, everything is downhill from here, and I’m
taking super-good care of myself.  I’ve cut back to only 3 packs a day of
cigarettes, and never drink more than 2 gallons of coffee in any one
sitting; unless I really need to or something.

Patrick

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine legal status?
Date: November 19, 2002 at 5:41:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think the legal status of ibogaine in the UK was
talked about no more then a week back? I’m not sure of
the details because I don’t live in the UK and it
doesn’t effect me.

Your question is really good though because I have the
same question more or less. Does anyone know where to
go to look up the scheduling of different drugs in
different countries? I can’t find any kind of central
source of this information and I guess I would have to
look up each specific country?

Any pointers in the right direction are appreciated.
Thanks!

Carla B

— marshall cohen <marshall.cohen@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
Enjoying the site very beautiful. Like the list has
a lot of different perspectives
from the day to day dreary recovery chatter.

Where can I look up the status of ibogaine in
different countries? Is it legal to
have it in the UK right now? Where is it against the
law? Don’t mean to be thick but
I am at a loss as to where I can look up this
information.

m.cohen

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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 5:36:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LMAO 😉

Thanks for posting that it made me feel a lot better.
I always thought it was only me when you answer the
phone in your house by yelling ‘what the hell do you
want?’

You know you can only stay high on stress for about 15
more years before you start having heart attacks.
Especially if you chain smoke and chug coffee 😉

Carla B

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 06:46:51AM -0800], [Brett
Calabrese] wrote:

| There is no magic formula, no ones secret path
that
| will work for someone else. Yes, it would be nice
if
| we all did straight line, went to detox, did some
| treatment, got spiritual, ate right, got exercise,
got
| a life, went back to college, had 2.3 children and
| lived happily ever after with our childhood
| sweetheart. But things don’t happen that way and
we
| are all in our various states of success and areas
in
| need of improvement – including the most mystical
| Patrick himself.

Brett, are you trying to imply that I’m not
perfect!??!?!!?  Just because
I am 500% overscheduled, live a life where my
interruptions have
interruptions, and everything is always an
emergency; doesn’t mean I need
to change anything.

It has become perfectly obvious to me, that the
whole entire world needs
to constantly rearrange itself around me.  If I
wanted to be mellow and
unstressed then why would I have stopped bangin’
heroin?  Heroin is very
relaxing.

Furthermore …nevermind… gotta go, being paged.

Patrick

| From a once pretty hopeless character, NEVER GIVE
UP
| HOPE, never project it, never think it, never give
in
| to it and don’t stop. “Do”, not “try”, you can get
| stuck in trying, for years.

Yeah, I strongly agree.  Try is bullshit, DO — and
make whatever
mistakes you need to along the way — or get a new
battery, fucking evil,
goddamn beeping ball and chain THING strapped to my
belt leeching my
lifeforce, screeching it’s awful wanting, needing,
shrill terrible
fucking annoying sound driving spikes into my head;
whoopsie, the battery
died, whoopsie, it fell down and was run over by a
garbage truck, whoopsie
I accidentally threw it out the fucking window.

I need to work on my relationship with my beeper,
laters,

Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of
myself and an Intaglio
press (which would take care of that money thing in
an hour or three).

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Zero Point Energy and the PKD Spectrum
Date: November 19, 2002 at 4:54:41 PM EST
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Zero Point Energy and the PKD Spectrum
Status:

http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/zpe.htm

http://www.ldolphin.org/zpe.html

http://www.dnai.com/~zap/

So What is it ?

Zero Point Energy, sometimes called Zero Point Fluctuations (ZPF) or
even Quantum Vacuum Fluctuation Energy, with or without the optional
quantum, is caused by the continual popping into existence of virtual
particles. These particles vanish almost as soon as they’ve popped
into existence.The particles, which arise as matter-antimatter twins,
can interact but must, disappear within an interval set by Planck’s
constant. They are a result of random electromagnetic oscillations,
they are whats left within a vacuum once you’ve extracted all the
energy.

One way to explain this apparent contradiction is Heisenbergs
Uncertainty Principle, this implies that it is impossible to have an
absolutely zero energy condition. The same condition holds for light
waves in space. For all wavelengths of light, there is a non-zero
amount of that light. Adding up the energy for all those different
wavelenghts, the amount of energy in a given space is enormous. Even
though this is a difficult concept for traditional phyicists to come
to terms with, the idea that all this vacuum energy exists is
becoming more widley accepted, and the quantum physicists have come
in from the cold.

So is there any evidence of all this free energy actually exists.
Well there have been a number of experimental results that would
suggest/show (depends on whether your a traditional physicist or not)
that such energy actually exists:

The Casimir Effect – The most straight-forward evidence
for vacuum energy

Van der Waal Forces
The Lamb-Retherford Shift – Refers to a slight frequency
alteration in the light emitted by an excited atom

Even for those of you who have read ‘A Brief History of Time’, by
Prof. Stephen Hawkins – Hawkins Radiation, should it exist relies on
the creation of virtual particles in matter/anti-matter pairs. One
particle spirals into the Hole, the other escapes, causing the
theoretical effect.
With such large amounts of energy bouncing around, why is it so hard to notice?

Imagine, for example, if you lived on a large plateau, so large that
you didn’t know you were 1000 ft up. From your point of view, your
ground is at zero height. As long as your not near the edge of your
1000 ft plateau, you won’t fall off, and you will never know that
your zero is really 1000. It’s kind of the same way with this vacuum
energy. It is essentially our zero reference point.

The energy of the vacuum is a puzzle in theories of quantum gravity
since it should act gravitationally and produce a large cosmological
constant that would cause space-time to curl up. The solution to the
inconsistency is expected to be found in a theory of quantum gravity.
There has been some interesting work, done in this field, by Haisch,
Rueda, and Puthoff , where vacuum fluctuations are used to explain
the effects of both gravity and inertia.
Can we extract any of this energy ?

Puthoff believes that atoms themselves offer a way to extract this
energy. This idea hinges on an unproved hypothesis: that zero-point
energy is what keeps electrons in an atom orbiting the nucleus. In
classical physics, circulating charges like an orbiting electron lose
energy through radiation. Putoff believes that zero-point energy
keeps the electron zipping around the nucleus (Quantum mechanics as
originally formulated simply states that an electron in an atom must
have some minimum, ground-state energy.)

Physicists have demonstrated that a small enough cavity can suppress
the natural inclination of a trapped, excited particle to give up
some energy and drop to a lower energy state [see “Cavity Quantum
Electrodynamics,” by Serge Haroche and Jean-Michel Raimond;
Scientific American, April 1993]. Basically, the cavity is so small
that it can exclude some of the lower-frequency vacuum fluctuations,
which the excited atom needs to emit light and drop to a lower energy
level. The cavity in effect controls the vacuum fluctuations.

Under the right circumstances, Puthoff reasons, one could effectively
manipulate the vacuum so that a new, lower ground state appears. The
electron would then drop to the lower ground state–in effect, the
atom would become smaller–and give up some energy in the process.

“It implies that hydrogen or deuterium injected into cavities might
produce excess energy,” Puthoff says.

This possibility might explain some of the cold-fusion experiments,
he notes–in other words, the occasional positive results reported in
cold-fusion tests might really be indicators of zero-point energy
(rather than, one would assume, wishful thinking). Work in cavity
quantum electrodynamics is experimentally challenging in its own
right, so it is not clear how practical an energy supply from
“shrinking atoms” could be. The Austin institute is testing a device
that could be interpreted as manipulating the vacuum. Puthoff,
however, declines to provide details, citing a proprietary
nondisclosure agreement with its designers.
Can this Energy take us to the Stars ?

Puthoff’s institute receives a little government money but gets most
of its funds from contracts with private firms. Others are backed
more explicitly by public money. This past August the National
Aeronautics and Space Administration sponsored a meeting called the
“Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop.” According to
participants, zero-point energy became a high priority among those
trying to figure out which “breakthroughs” should be pursued.

The propulsion application depends on a speculation put forth in 1994
by Puthoff, Bernhard Haisch of Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory
and Alfonso Rueda of California State University at Long Beach. They
suggested that inertia–the resistance that objects put up when they
are accelerated–stems from the drag effects of moving through the
zero-point field. Because the zero-point field can be manipulated in
quantum experiments, Puthoff reasons, it should be possible to lessen
an object’s inertia and hence, for a rocket, reduce the fuel burden.
Puthoff and his colleagues have been trying to prove this
inertia-origin hypothesis–a sensitive pendulum should be able to
detect a zero-point-energy “wake” left by a moving object–but
Puthoff says they have not managed to isolate their system well
enough to do so. More conventional scientists decried the channeling
of NASA funds to a meeting where real science was lacking. “We hardly
talked about the physics” of the proposals, complained Milonni,
adding that during one of the breakout sessions “there was a guy
talking about astral projection.” Certainly, there should be room for
far-out, potentially revolutionary ideas, but not at the expense of
solid science. “One has to keep an open mind, but the concepts I’ve
seen so far would violate energy conservation,” Milonni concludes. In
sizing up zero-point-energy schemes, it may be best to keep in mind
the old caveat emptor: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably
is.

References

Haisch in Feb 1994 Phys. Rev.A Science vol 263 p 612 Scientific
American vol 270, p 30 New Scientist 25 Feb 1995 p 30

“Gravity as a Zero-Point-Fluctuation Force,” H.E. Puthoff, Physical
Review A: General Physics. Mar 1 1989, Vol39 No 5

——-

From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] zero point gravity modifications
Status:

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2072733

brave new world
Feeling Antigravity’s Pull
Can NASA stop the apple from falling on Newton’s head?
By Adam Rogers
Posted Friday, October 18, 2002, at 8:30 AM PT

“Don’t call it antigravity research,” Ron Koczor pleads. He’s a
physicist at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala.,
and he’s talking about a project he’s been working on for almost a
decade. “Call it ‘gravity modification.’ ‘Gravity anomalies.’
Anything but antigravity. That’s a red flag.”

When people find out that the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration has researchers working on sci-fi stuff like
antigravity—or rather, “gravity modification”—the red flags do indeed
start waving. Reputable scientists like Koczor earn polite disdain
from colleagues (or worse, from funders of research). But truth’s
truth: NASA has been studying the manipulation of gravity for at
least 10 years, as have nongovernment researchers.

NASA began its work after a Russian physicist named Evgeny Podkletnov
published an article in the peer-reviewed journal Physica C in 1992.
Podkletnov claimed that a device built around a superconductor and a
magnet could shield an object from gravity. The trick, he said, was
to make a superconducting disc about a foot in diameter, chill it,
levitate it over magnets—a nifty property of superconductors is that
they repel magnetic fields—and set it revolving like a compact disc.
Podkletnov said an object placed above that contraption lost 0.3
percent of its weight. The object itself didn’t change. Rather,
gravity’s effect on it lessened.

If that effect could be harnessed and strengthened, the aerospace
industry would be upended. Vessels bound for space wouldn’t have to
ride atop massive, barely controlled explosions. All the energy human
beings expend moving things around, from cargo to cars, could be
reduced or eliminated. And post-Einsteinian physics would have to be
rewritten to explain what the hell was going on. Podkletnov called
the effect “gravitational force shielding,” and even in the absence
of a good theory to explain the phenomenon, other researchers took
notice. “Because his experiment and results were published in a
peer-reviewed, scientific journal, that gave it a level of
credibility,” Koczor says.

After Podkletnov published his article, it took NASA until 1999 to
figure out how to make a large, thin superconducting disc. Ceramic
high-temperature superconductors are brittle as cheap china, and the
discs kept shattering. Once they solved that problem, NASA paid
Columbus, Ohio-based SCI Engineered Materials $650,000 to build the
entire apparatus. But Podkletnov had called for a disc with two
layers, one superconducting and one not, and SCI didn’t solve that
engineering challenge until last year. Then they hit another
roadblock. The disc wouldn’t spin. SCI engineers stuck a rotor
through the disc’s center to turn it mechanically, but Podkletnov
specified 5,000 revolutions per minute. SCI’s device barely pulls 30
rpm.

Why not just ask Podkletnov how to build the thing? SCI brought him
over to consult a couple of years ago, to little avail. “His excuse
basically was that he was a ceramics physicist, not an electrical or
mechanical engineer, and other people built the device for him,”
Koczor says. “Draw your own conclusions. All I know is, if I were a
principal investigator on something like this, I would know the size
and thread-depth of every screw in the damn thing. But you know, the
Europeans and the Russians, they’re different. They’re much more,
‘this is your job and this is my job.’ So it’s plausible that he
didn’t know the details.” It might not matter. SCI’s contract is
ending, and Koczor’s budget to explore “way-out physics” is spent. He
hasn’t got the money to actually test the device even if it did meet
Podkletnov’s specs.

But researchers outside NASA are working on the problem, too. This
summer Nick Cook, a writer for Jane’s Defence Weekly, reported that
aerospace giant Boeing was pursuing antigravity research. Boeing
denied it. “We are aware of Podkletnov’s work on ‘anti-gravity’
devices and would be interested in seeing further development work
being done,” said a company statement. “However, Boeing is not
funding any activities in this area at this time.” Note Boeing’s use
of the Clintonian present tense. They never contacted Jane’s to ask
for a correction, Cook says. Meanwhile, British aerospace company BAE
Systems says it’s keeping an eye on the research, and that it had
once funded its own antigravity project, Greenglow.

Unfortunately, Cook strains his own credibility somewhat. A couple of
weeks after his Jane’s piece appeared, Cook’s book on antigravity
research, The Hunt for Zero Point, came out. In it, he claims that
the Nazis built an antigravity device during World War II. Its
absence from present-day science, Cook says, implies a vast “black”
world of secret antigravity aircraft that might explain the UFOs
people see over Area 51. He’s a careful investigative reporter, but
once you start talking about UFOs and Nazi antigravity you’re not far
from hidden tunnels under the White House full of lizard-men
disguised as Freemasons.

Even without Nazis, there are plenty of reasons to doubt Podkletnov.
My e-mails to the account listed on his recent articles (not
peer-reviewed) went unanswered. Even more problematic, I can’t find
the institution he lists as his affiliation in Moscow. “Eugene always
expressed his worries that others could copy his work, although as
far as I know he never applied for a patent,” Giovanni Modanese, a
collaborator of Podkletnov’s at the University of Bolzano in Italy,
wrote in an e-mail (using a Western version of Podkletnov’s first
name). “Nonetheless, at the scientific level if one wants a
confirmation by others and a successful replication, one must give
all the necessary elements.” Well, yeah. Modanese says that the
current version of the device, now called an “impulse gravity
generator,” is simpler and could be built “by a big-science team of
people expert in superconductivity.” A Boeing spokesperson didn’t
respond to follow-up questions. So, either there’s nothing going on
here, or it’s an X-File.

And the science? Ten years is a long time to go without replication.
Combine that with Podkletnov’s cagey behavior and it’s enough to make
even sci-fi geeks like me lose hope. But like the core of any good
conspiracy, antigravity research has the ring of plausibility. One of
the outstanding problems in physics and cosmology today involves the
existence of so-called dark matter and dark energy. They’re by far
the main constituents of matter in the universe, and nobody knows
what they’re made of—researchers have only inferred their existence
from gravitational effects. Coming up with a new theory of how
gravity works might explain that, though it’d be a scientific
revolution on a par with relativity. “Changing gravity is in the
cards,” says Paul Schechter, an astronomer at MIT. “But so far no
one’s been able to do better than Einstein.” Still, Einstein worked
in a lowly patent office. Ron Koczor works for NASA.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 4:49:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/19/02 4:24:36 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:

Do0D, you know cocaethylene is extremely dangerous and can keel you ded
meng.

“Really!?!?  Sounds excellent, where do I buy an ounce?”

A question might be does cocaethylene produce the cocaine/alcohol high
without the alcohol liver toxicity?  Possibly, it should be introduced by
NIDA as a replacement/agonist therapy for cocaine as none exists.   As for
ibogaine and NIDA well, NIDA and Ibogaine are a lot like that snow ball in
hell.

Howard

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 4:08:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 07:51:17AM -0800], [Mundo Real] wrote:

| Just a thought: cocaine when used in conjunction with alcohol becomes
| very toxic in the body due to cocaethylene production. Take care. Mundo.

I have conclusive, fully documented, anecdotal evidence that strongly
suggests cocaethylene doesn’t actually exist if you choose to disbelieve
innit.

Exhibit’s A-(X) are at least half a dozen people I know who have remained
functional for decades in the latter stages of alcoholism, ‘cuz they also
do cocaine.  By “do cocaine” I mean snort it, not freebase or bang it up
— I haven’t ever really met anyone whose made that combination work out.

Do0D, you know cocaethylene is extremely dangerous and can keel you ded
meng.

“Really!?!?  Sounds excellent, where do I buy an ounce?”

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 3:13:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 06:46:51AM -0800], [Brett Calabrese] wrote:

| There is no magic formula, no ones secret path that
| will work for someone else. Yes, it would be nice if
| we all did straight line, went to detox, did some
| treatment, got spiritual, ate right, got exercise, got
| a life, went back to college, had 2.3 children and
| lived happily ever after with our childhood
| sweetheart. But things don’t happen that way and we
| are all in our various states of success and areas in
| need of improvement – including the most mystical
| Patrick himself.

Brett, are you trying to imply that I’m not perfect!??!?!!?  Just because
I am 500% overscheduled, live a life where my interruptions have
interruptions, and everything is always an emergency; doesn’t mean I need
to change anything.

It has become perfectly obvious to me, that the whole entire world needs
to constantly rearrange itself around me.  If I wanted to be mellow and
unstressed then why would I have stopped bangin’ heroin?  Heroin is very
relaxing.

Furthermore …nevermind… gotta go, being paged.

Patrick

| From a once pretty hopeless character, NEVER GIVE UP
| HOPE, never project it, never think it, never give in
| to it and don’t stop. “Do”, not “try”, you can get
| stuck in trying, for years.

Yeah, I strongly agree.  Try is bullshit, DO — and make whatever
mistakes you need to along the way — or get a new battery, fucking evil,
goddamn beeping ball and chain THING strapped to my belt leeching my
lifeforce, screeching it’s awful wanting, needing, shrill terrible
fucking annoying sound driving spikes into my head; whoopsie, the battery
died, whoopsie, it fell down and was run over by a garbage truck, whoopsie
I accidentally threw it out the fucking window.

I need to work on my relationship with my beeper, laters,

Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of myself and an Intaglio
press (which would take care of that money thing in an hour or three).

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 1:59:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.”  Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw

Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead.  Resnick and Gooberman are —
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back.  Resnick is, well, whatever.  He’s okay.  He may or may not take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is attempting to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.

Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED!  spin control, and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit.  While Andre Waismann invented UROD, Lance is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally sleazy.

Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox him
using his own methodology.

I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.

Patrick

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 1:17:21 PM EST
To: Newagecitizen@aol.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

FYI:
Tangentially relevant? TOTALLY.

Detox Doctors Ruled Not Negligent

By LINDA A. JOHNSON
.c The Associated Press

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) – Two doctors who practiced a method of rapidly detoxifying narcotics addicts were not negligent in the deaths of seven patients, but their licenses should be briefly suspended, a state judge has ruled.

Prosecutors had charged Drs. Lance Gooberman and his assistant, David Bradway, with gross and repeated malpractice, negligence, incompetence and professional misconduct. Prosecutors were seeking to revoke their medical licenses.

The charges were filed after the deaths of seven of the more than 2,350 heroin and other addicts Gooberman and Bradway treated from May 1995 to September 1999 at U.S. Detox Inc. in Merchantville. The doctors denied any wrongdoing.

After a lengthy trial, Administrative Law Judge Jeff S. Masin ruled late Friday that the prosecution had not proved any serious charges, saying the doctors generally acted in good faith.

He recommended that each have his license suspended for six months for violations of several medical standards, followed by two years’ probation during which their records would be reviewed, particularly if they resumed the rapid detoxification treatments.

The violations include inadequate record keeping, in some cases encouraging some patients to allow their cases to be described in publicity materials for the business and not telling early patients that the procedure was considered experimental.

Gooberman said Monday he plans to challenge those findings.

“I’m really excited about the decision,” he said. “It vindicated rapid detoxification. It was important for me to hear that we didn’t hurt anybody and we acted in good faith.”

The state attorney general’s office is reviewing Masin’s ruling to determine whether to file any exceptions.

Masin also recommended that Gooberman pay a total of $11,500 in civil penalties, Bradway pay a total of $14,000 in civil penalties, and they together pay one-third of the costs for investigation of the case by the state Board of Medical Examiners.

The board polices doctors licensed in the state and must review Masin’s “initial judgment.” It can accept his findings, reject them or modify them.

In his ruling, Masin wrote that there was nothing intrinsically “inappropriate or especially dangerous” about the doctors’ rapid opiate detoxification procedure.

It uses medications to rapidly flush drugs out of addicts’ bodies while they are under anesthesia for about four hours, getting them over the worst of withdrawal symptoms such as diarrhea, cramps and tremors that normally would last for several days.

The method has been widely used in Europe and Israel, but is relatively new in the United States. Doctors in six states offer the treatment.

Gooberman and Bradway have been barred from performing the procedure since September 1999.

The trial began in January 2001 and continued through June 2002.

On the Net: http://lancegooberman.com/

11/18/02 20:02 EST

Professor Hemp
New Age Citizen
PO Box 419
Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
(313)563-3192

Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.”  Lance Gooberman, I mean. Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.

Dana/cnw

From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 10:51:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just a thought: cocaine when used in conjunction with alcohol becomes very toxic in the body due to cocaethylene production. Take care. Mundo.
brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school completely.

That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about it then.

That is my problem.

You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it was so funny then and you know it.

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.

Buying 8 balls.

My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate

“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”

That is my problem.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis Hersch wrote:

>
>Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I
>thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started
>reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You
>
>post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am
>
>being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet
>
>you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is
>
>you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are
>
>nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro,
>
>except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about
>people who you do not even know.
>
>Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in
>
>little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.
>
>I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but
>
>what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or
>
>what are you trying to solve?
>
>Peace out,
>Curtis

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Brendan22
Date: November 19, 2002 at 10:44:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/19/02 8:23:23 AM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:

My tag line for the day is: A Neverending Spree of too little time and
too much to do.

Let me add never enough money to do it with.

Howard

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 9:46:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Art,

There is no magic formula, no ones secret path that
will work for someone else. Yes, it would be nice if
we all did straight line, went to detox, did some
treatment, got spiritual, ate right, got exercise, got
a life, went back to college, had 2.3 children and
lived happily ever after with our childhood
sweetheart. But things don’t happen that way and we
are all in our various states of success and areas in
need of improvement – including the most mystical
Patrick himself. Whatever WE did, got us here, I can
honestly say that it it wasn’t for drugs I wouldn’t be
where I am today (hummm….) – and that includes some
of the pain I placed upon myself. One thing many of us
did on our path was ibogaine, it changes the
possibilities, suddenly the rules are different,
minimal effort is required where once stood a
seemingly impassable object. When once didn’t do it,
we did it again, some of us again… Whatever it
takes.

The other thing we did was (with some detours) stay on
the path – whatever it was, keep going, pick ones self
up and get back on it. Yes, I can see a visit to a
crack house on that path (as helping), sure thing,
makes perfect sense to me. Some of us have to re-visit
the Valley of the Shadow of Death one (or several)
more times before saying farewell for the last time –
of course some don’t make it back.

What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to
do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him?

Cut the umbilical cord. He could try something non-12
step, rational recovery, maybe a stay at Oasis
Mountain will help. Whatever it is, it is UNLIKELY it
will be one smooth succes story. I gotta say, there
just isn’t anything like ibo, it is like being
transported from deep in addiction to 6 months sober
(milage varies and depends on a number of factors).

Then there are a few things most of us use in our
recovery that seems to work. They are

Desire to change, observation of ones self and effort.
Some form of recovery, working on addiction/issues.
Some form of spirituality
Some form of exercise
Improve the diet, nutrition
Know thy self, what you can and cannot do safely
Get a life – this is one area where ibogaine really
gave me a great deal of help
Keep away from doctors who like to medicate
Unless it works for ya, keep away from fear based
“recovery”.
Learn to love and enjoy ones self – that was hard.
Oh, and don’t stand still for too long…

The difference is you made it, he’s not going
to
make it.

So why try, you already failed?

From a once pretty hopeless character, NEVER GIVE UP
HOPE, never project it, never think it, never give in
to it and don’t stop. “Do”, not “try”, you can get
stuck in trying, for years.

Brett

— Art Hernandez <arthernandez1999@yahoo.com> wrote:

Patrick, I’ve too sent you mail at least twice and
never receive any replies. It wasn’t sent to kiss up
to you or waste your time, I understand you’re very
busy but please reply to me, I will send one more
email after this to the list.

I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to
right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic
depression,
which I understand you are too. I’ve met many people
who are gifted at science, writing, speaking, etc
but
I’ve never met anyone who moves back and forth
through
all that, you’re not writing technical papers,
you’re
writing prose that somehow mixes all of that and
makes
it connect to people. That’s remarkable. I can read
you and get the same effect as taking LSD.

It took me a long time before I wrote you even once
because you’re someone I don’t know how to approach.
I
know you have a very colorful past and have applied
your mind in ways that have upset a lot of people.
But
in reading this list for months I’ve never seen you
attack anyone, I think you’re a really good person,
please take a little time to just reply to me.

I have a son, he’s 31 years old now. He finished
high
school at 15, he received his BS at 20, he is not
like
you but he is very smart. What I have now and have
had
for almost 5 years is someone who has to be told
that
he smells and needs to take a shower and change his
clothes. He does nothing but more heroin. I am
watching running sores on his arms get bigger and he
doesn’t stop. I don’t know what to do anymore, he
has
been to detox so many times, he has been to
treatment,
he always leaves treatment, I have taken him to
psychiatrists, counselors, everything. Nothing
works.
I don’t know how to help him anymore, looking at him
now you would never believe what he was 5 years ago.

I have noticed that many on this list have high
regard
for entheogenic drugs, but I don’t know how or if
that
would help because I don’t understand how he can
take
LSD, then do crack and heroin all in the same day. I
have done LSD and have great respect and thanks, but
he is not like that.

What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to
do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him? I’ve read
most of what you’re written about addiction and you
say almost the same things that he says, that it’s a
bad joke run my idiots. The problem is I don’t know
where to find anyone as smart as he is, or how to
help
him. The difference is you made it, he’s not going
to
make it. The best I can hope for right now is that
he’ll go to jail for a little while and that will
slow
down the phone call that my son is dead somewhere. I
keep waiting for that.

How do I help him?

I will attend the Seattle conference and would love
to
hear you speak, please I will pay for your time if
you
will talk with my son, or can do anything to help
him.
I don’t know what to do anymore and no matter who I
send him to he tells me they are stupid and they
tell
me that he is beyond therapy and don’t know what to
do
with him so send him to someone else.

I believe that conventional treatment will not work
for some people, but where do I send him for
unconventional treatment after ibogaine? I’ve even
read about where you went, but I don’t understand
that
either. Thamkrabok appears in every newspaper
listing
as being a temple that is a front for one of the
largest heroin smuggling operations by the tribe
people in Thailand and reading the latest reports
from
the Bangkok post the army and the drug smugglers
have
blown up parts of it and are vacating 30,000 people
from the area. Whatever it was, it isn’t there
anymore.

This is like saying you went to a crackhouse to
clear
your head after doing ibogaine. I don’t understand
how
that could have worked for you. Which is where I
started, I don’t understand how you do what you’ve
done, I don’t understand how to help my son and I
can’t find anyone else who does either.

Please reply to my email.
AH

— Alison Senepart <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
Poor rat..   I can relate to that whole thing.   I
havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for
a
while now.  Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about.  I can stay clean for months at a time but
every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back
to
reality, although it was
so good at the time.   Am pretty constant on 10mgs
methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and
hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future.  My partner is
on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down.
Guess
different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure
out
their own solution.??
Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body
weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox

Hi, I found this through reading the addiction
series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t
focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the
best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t
reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would
please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does
it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read
some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all
the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes
but
i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use
heroin
not very much crack.

thank you any information appreciated. I did try
to
send email but its never replied to :-((

laurie

<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com

Yo, that wasn’t me.  That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I

Addiction?

Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful,
mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and
operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.

But unstable and FLYING out of everything.

Or was that my universal remote…

The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.

People create theories in an attempt to
understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who
lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the
events
in question.

Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is
awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it
destroys
things.  I will never do fire again!  In fact I
will
gather together groups of other people who have
all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire
is
awful, to make myself feel better.

Yeah, well, okay.  If that works for you,
fabulous.
But ya know what?  It’s not the “correct”
solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally
wrong

or more specifically, incomplete.  Because when
you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from
death.

And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively
using
drugs…  it’s not all that different from the
one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives.  Most people are not all
that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most
of
the
time.  The only thing that separates you from
them,
is
you have partially learned something they don’t
know
about.  If you’re feeling like shit, or even if
you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high –
you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or
that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to
the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but
somehow
totally different.

Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.

What all this means is: congratulations, you’re
human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek
altered
states of consciousness.  Sex, drugs, rock n’
roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles
until
they get dizzy.  It’s all the same thing.

If you have the specific goal of moving away from
drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances,
the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for
you,
or
the consequences of continued use —  in current
society —  are too high a price to pay.  I can
offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.

To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related
systems;
psychology, biology and neurology.  We can for
example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular
molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.

Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…?  Did the rat go to rodent therapy
and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into
its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to
a
higher power of its understanding?  Uhm…
Probably
not.  The only higher power it has come into
contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be
found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.

However, this is the part where it all spins in
the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a
higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it
very
little time to arrive at the understanding,
“hmmm,
I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with
sharp
objects.  The only thing I have to look forward
to
is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw
me
in
the garbage.  Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t
I
hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not
like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>

__________________________________________________
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__________________________________________________
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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:57:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.

I don’t have any personal experience with this, but the research suggests
that ibogaine would work for alcohol addiction as well.

e.g.:

Rezvani, A., Overstreet, D., and Lee, Y. (1995). Attenuation of alcohol
intake by ibogaine in three strains of alcohol preferring rats.
Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behaviour, Vol. 52, 615  620.

Rezvani, A., Overstreet, D., Yang, Y., Maisonneuve, I., Bandarage, U.,
Kuehne, M., and Glick, S. (1997). Attenuation of alcohol consumption by a
novel non-toxic ibogaine analog (18methoxycoronaridine) in alcohol
preferring rats. Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behavior, Vol. 58, 615
619.

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
— Benjamin Franklin

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] To Brendan22
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:22:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My biggest problem is that I don’t drink. Sometimes it’s more of a
problem and sometimes less.  But when I look at the last 3 months, most
times they are better than the 3 before that.

Time is my problem. I don’t have enough of it to pursue everything I
enjoy and manage to get some sleep.  I don’t really care to restrict
myself to 4-5 hours of sleep per night, but if I want to pursue my
interests, I have to do so.  I don’t really like a lot of things, but
many of them I do anyway because they are good for me and I see the
benefits afterward.  Eventually, the cart begins to move in front of the
horse.

Perhaps you are overly concerned with trying to understand or follow
Patrick’s road map.  What’s the point of that? You’re driving. It’s your
vehicle. You’re the one traveling to your own destination.

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD either, but if that is what I
figured it  would take, I’d be dosing.  At this point in my life, it
just isn’t needed.  In addition, I just don’t have the time.

My tag line for the day is: A Neverending Spree of too little time and
too much to do.

That is my solution. That is my nightmare.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

brendan22@hushmail.com 11/19/02 12:40AM >>>

My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem,
sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3
before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no
longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of
days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school
completely.

That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if
ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the
mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about
it then.

That is my problem.

You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap
that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What
does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and
think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it
was so funny then and you know it.

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t
hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.

Buying 8 balls.

My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate

“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”

That is my problem.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis  Hersch
<crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You

post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am

being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet

you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is

you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are

nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro,

except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about
people who you do not even know.

Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in

little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.

I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but

what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or

what are you trying to solve?

Peace out,
Curtis

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:13:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brendan

Your “problem” is you want to get high and that seems
to be a problem for you. Maybe you see ibogaine as a
hallucinogen and are afraid, however it has been
pointed out by more than one on this board that it is
not/is not its primary function/is not like
hallucinogens/not like tripping out/is like REM sleep
– as in dreaming while awake and opening your eyes
will stop the big mean scary dreams… You don’t hear
the miracle when it comes to alcohol but I for one was
an alcoholic and stopped drinking (and everything
else) with the aid of ibogaine and have posted this
several times. But hey, better not to try, you might
actually succeed and we wouldn’t want that, maybe
better find something with a guarantee of success…
Have fun with your problems, I sure know I did.

Brett

— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is
more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the
last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that
and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3
months and no longer make it out of bed in the
morning that much a higher percent of days, it will
take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school
completely.

That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I
don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking
more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it
going for a few years and graduate and worry about
it then.

That is my problem.

You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person
but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as
the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that
mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and
think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you
really didn’t think it was so funny then and you
know it.

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps
are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine
for alcohol. Where does that leave me.

Buying 8 balls.

My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate

“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”

That is my problem.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis  Hersch
<crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is
your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids
who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are
that too. You

post messages that I know you don’t understand that
or maybe I am

being over sensitive and it is the internet and for
the internet

you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to
say to you is

you write things that are personal attacks on
people and they are

nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say
anything bro,

except you’re mad so you’re going to say something
nasty about
people who you do not even know.

Then you post kind messages and are helpful to
people, maybe in

little ways, but if you were always angry you
wouldn’t do that.

I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply
in private, but

what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s
your problem, or

what are you trying to solve?

Peace out,
Curtis

Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:12:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brendan

Your “problem” is you want to get high and that seems
to be a problem for you. Maybe you see ibogaine as a
hallucinogen and are afraid, however it has been
pointed out by more than one on this board that it is
not/is not its primary function/is not like
hallucinogens/not like tripping out/is like REM sleep
– as in dreaming while awake and opening your eyes
will stop the big mean scary dreams… You don’t hear
the miracle when it comes to alcohol but I for one was
an alcoholic and stopped drinking (and everything
else) with the aid of ibogaine and have posted this
several times. But hey, better not to try, you might
actually succeed and we wouldn’t want that, maybe
better find something with a guarantee of success…
Have fun with your problems, I sure know I did.

Brett

— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is
more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the
last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that
and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3
months and no longer make it out of bed in the
morning that much a higher percent of days, it will
take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school
completely.

That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I
don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking
more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it
going for a few years and graduate and worry about
it then.

That is my problem.

You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person
but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as
the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that
mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and
think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you
really didn’t think it was so funny then and you
know it.

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps
are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine
for alcohol. Where does that leave me.

Buying 8 balls.

My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate

“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”

That is my problem.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis  Hersch
<crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is
your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids
who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are
that too. You

post messages that I know you don’t understand that
or maybe I am

being over sensitive and it is the internet and for
the internet

you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to
say to you is

you write things that are personal attacks on
people and they are

nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say
anything bro,

except you’re mad so you’re going to say something
nasty about
people who you do not even know.

Then you post kind messages and are helpful to
people, maybe in

little ways, but if you were always angry you
wouldn’t do that.

I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply
in private, but

what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s
your problem, or

what are you trying to solve?

Peace out,
Curtis

Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 12:40:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school completely.

That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about it then.

That is my problem.

You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it was so funny then and you know it.

I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.

Buying 8 balls.

My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate

“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”

That is my problem.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You

post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am

being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet

you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is

you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are

nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro,

except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about
people who you do not even know.

Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in

little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.

I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but

what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or

what are you trying to solve?

Peace out,
Curtis

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC Ibogaine Forum Report
Date: November 18, 2002 at 7:18:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry for the delay in getting a requested report on the NYC Ibogaine Forum
of November 16 to the mindvox list.  So here goes.

The Ibogaine Working Group (IWG) acted as a coordinating committee for the
Nov 16 event and is also acting as to coordinate with the assistance of
others the anticipated International Ibogaine Conference scheduled for
February 7 and 8, 2003.  I am waiting for the venue contracts before inviting
presenters so please hang in for another week.  Once the contracts are signed
a substantial web page will be established to provide information and allow
registration and submission of abstracts.  Individuals wishing to present
should be prepared to submit abstracts.  Thanks on that.

The IWG’s intent for the NYC Ibogaine Forum in Harlem was not only to
continue to make ibogaine information available but, the hope that the Black
community would assume considerable control of moving information and
legitimate ibogaine availability into their communities.  The NYC Forum held
at the Dempsey Center was a dramatic event in that five of the six presenters
were Black:  Suzanne Bellamy, Awolowo Johnson, Emmanuel Onaivi, Playthell
Benjamin and Elombe Brath.  Everyone at the event was excited by the energy
of the presentations.  In fact, the one white guy who presented, Dr. Kenneth
R. Alper called me to let me know how keen he was on the energy and concept
of the forum and how very New York it was to hold the event in Harlem.
(Couldn’t resist that.  Sorry, Ken ;-).  Personally, I was blown away by the
presenters.  Now the key issues as I see it is keeping up the energy and
giving back Africa’s gift to the people of African decent in the United
States.  Two of the presenters recently returned from Europe where they
underwent iboga initiations for shamanic/healing/learning purposes.  This is
a new beginning for transforming the information on ibogaine into practical
experience which is what usually drives the explosions of ibogaine awareness
and development wherever they occur.

Check out the Ibogaine events Calendar <www.ibogaine.desk.nl/calendar.html>
or <http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/calendar.html>.  If you are in a city holding
a conference or forum be sure to attend.

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Conference Calendar
Date: November 18, 2002 at 6:56:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

For a list of upcoming ibogaine conferences and meetings please see:

http://www.ibogaine.org/calendar.html

or

http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/calendar.html

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Reposting Rick plus nicks questions
Date: November 18, 2002 at 3:52:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey i like what i hear here cuz what is said here stays here so i hear herehere! Anyways i am preparing to go for ibogaine treatment in middle january i am on  methadone 105 mgs down 5 today i am gonna try to switch back to heroin before the ibo T-ment. cuz i hear its easier to kick and i know it is. but i am going to mostly A.,A right now i used to go to 5 N.a meetings a week and 1 A.A. now i go to 4-5 A.A.meetings a week 1 heroin anonymous that uses the A.A big book stuff and 1 N.A. i found that there was alot more peple in A.A. with 4 or more years sober they claim and there i would say 7% with 10 years or more.But the ones with 10 or more almost never sign court signing papers cuz they hate the idea that someone is forced to go maybe to 1 or two meetings to check it out is alright but to be forced to go 3 times a week or more is nonsence it just hurts the meetings.I used heroin 30 mins.ago A.A. and N.A.  don’t really do that much to get me sober nor due they do more than a little to keep me sober i have found that its up to me but anyways I can say in all honesty A.A. has helped with the meeting of new people wich is key to the after care  of tratment.If i go back to the same places and same faces and paces of life i will go right back.and i do believe in complete abstinenece.cu “”! is too many and 1,000,000 is never enough” especially with a rock”: btu heroin has got me i live in Ann Arbor Michigan 25 mins. from the lovely wello kept city of Detroit.HAHA  Anyways i would like to find out as much info on as many after care things i can do and participate in aafter i get done  with the 6 meesly day detox wich i am scared is only half the amount of time that i need. What Works Really? what have you or you or you done after ibo treatment? I’m scared! I could take on two street fighters in an ally or a bull in a ring but opiate detox and sobriety scares me like i’m wearing a diaper in the fetal position. i have been to two in patient rehabs one for 9 days for H. then the other for 34 days wich i still thought wasn’t long enough. but the 34 days helped me so much i don’t know with ibo but cold turkey just heroin no methadone took me 3 weeks for my brain and body to detox and bye day 25 i was only sleeping 2 hours a night and thats not consecutive. So i am scared about getting down to about 25-30 mgs methadone then stopping switching to as little of heroin as possible maybe even try to skip a day and lock myself in a room or something.Help me! I know there is a better way. I know i will be happy if i can get through those first two moonths thats all i need then i can start some new good friendwwships.Oh sexual relationships inA.A are also Taboo for the first 9 months well i have been in A.A and N.A. for 4 years on and off and there was some pretty extensive breaks in there 9 months twice so whatever that means but there is not anything  magical at A.A. and when you do relapse there its hard to come back cuz you count everyday that you are sober{like a jail sentence might i add} so it sets you up for humiliation and despair when you use one day and you have to start at day one .but you go back and don’t tell anyone then now you are lying and keeping in lyes is one of the worst things for your psyche!so then you tell them a month later after they congradulate you on 6 months  and now your the sneaky lier whatever this sucks.I feel like this is my destiny sometimes.Me and some Heroin anonymou people call it junkie destiny which alot of us feel but i know that it can go away if you tell yourself the opposite when your sober. I have not had a taste of complete sobriety since january of last actually this year i went to rehab on 9/31 right after 9/11 which i remember getting woke up right after the first tower got hit i woke up in puddle of puke to see it. then rehab from9/31 till 11/3 then i stayed sober for 2 months it was so hard!soso hard the only thing keeping me from using was this girl i met i rehab then we went to A.A/N.A. meetings together and i think she could have been my wife but in JAN. i did 1 blow and told her a week later.Needless to say i had so much guilt. i wanted sobriety but i gave in spur of the moment. and i told her hey if i start using leave me alone i will rob you or get you to use i get very manipulative when full blown using so after i used once  she held the promise i made her keep in rehab cuz i did love her.I loved her so much i would rather have her sober without me than using with me so that depressed me and back to the addiction Nick goes and it was bad real bad!my using skyroketed to double i would do like  a gram a day and i had to sell drugs i knew i had to do something when i robbed one of my drug dealers right on the block and got in a high speed car chase. i prayed for a bullet in the head  and not in the stomach or anywere that would hurt cuz i was sick and tired but i got away with a couple of grams and swore i would stop i tryed to ween myself down but we all know how well self bargaining works. So i fgured it was death or methadone so i got on meth 8 or 9 months ago whatever it is.And shit i can’t knock meth totally cuz it does work for harm prevention.cuz 150mgs held me after a week or two enabling me to get a job. so here oi am strung out on metrhadone occasional heroin use. but still none the less stuck! Thats my story and i am sticking to it.i love and hate opiates so much!
The downward spiral of my life

Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Reposting Rick

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
>Erica,
> Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t
>much to
>add. Recovery is work. Increase your baseline Dopamine and
>Serotonin
>levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate
>to a
>completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand
>new
>adventure). Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as
>habits),
>and do whatever you find that works for you. The 12-steps work
>for some
>people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try
>SMART.
>Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to
>release
>endorphins and serotonin). Most “programs” are somewhat
>arbitrary and
>filled with dogma…but many people will require such an
>approach. Take
>what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU. If you are of a mindset
>that you
>don’t “buy in to,” someone telling you THIS IS THE WAY, THE
>ONLY
>WAY…WALK YE IN IT. bUT IF YOU ARE OF THAT MINDSET…WALK YE IN
>IT.
>
>_____________________________________
>Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
>Hampton Roads Clinic
>2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
>Hampton, VA 23666
>
>Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
>Fax: (757) 826-2772
>Cell: (757) 270-9839
>_____________________________________
>
>
> >>> randyhencken@hotmail.com 10/07/02 01:52PM >>>
>Erica,
>
>Congratulations on your preparation for a big change in your
>life. Hear
>
>this: It is not going to be easy. Ibogaine is the shit for
>opiate
>dependence and you are going to get off your habit without most
>of the
>
>nastiness and with dignity. What happens next is what is
>difficult.
>Don’t
>expect that you instantly won’t want to dope just because you had
>this
>crazy
>trip on iboga. You are going to have to work on yourself and
>be
>vigilant
>against picking up again. I watch a lot of people go through
>this
>treatment. The ones who succeed take a realistic approach. The
>ones
>who
>fall back into using expect that being clean, once they detox, is
>going
>to
>be easy. wrong. Doing dope is easy.
>
>The others have giving you some good advice. Check out SMART
>recovery
>it is
>a great program that is designed to be tailored to the
>individual. It
>is not
>a life long commitment either. The goal is you use their program
>for 3
>
>months to a year or so and then you put addiction behind you.
>Smart
>recovery is a not-for-profit entity as opposed to Rational
>Recovery.
>RR has
>a few great ideas and you can find them in Jack Trimpey’s “the
>small
>book”.
>But asides from that I wouldn’t shell out too much money in
>RR’s
>direction
>when you can gain equally good coaching through smart.
>
>And it’s true that 12-steps are garbage. They have been in
>existence
>for
>over 67 years and there has never been one scientific study that
>has
>proven
>their effectiveness. 12-steps are arbitrary and filled with
>dogma.
>You are
>probably a bright young women who can figure most things out
>for
>yourself.
>Don’t give up thinking just because your in recovery,instead
>learn how
>to be
>in charge of your own head.
>
>Don’t bother entering a residential treatment center either.
>The
>National
>Institute on Drug Abuse found that they are truly unnecessary and
>that
>is
>why outpatient treatment is on the rise.
>
>I really could go on and on about this subject, because I’m
>very
>involved in
>the recovery process. But I don’t want to be overwhelming.
>Visit the
>Smart
>web page www.smartrecovery.org
>
>Go to http://ibogaine-therapy.net/testimonials.htm and read my
>testimonial
>it will give you a good insight into my perspective on ibogaine
>and
>life
>there after.
>
>You can do it! Go get it!
>
>Randy H.
>
> >From: “Erica Theissen”
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: [ibogaine] what happens right after ibogaine?
> >Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 08:00:32 -1000
> >
> >Hi I’ve been reading this list for a while and think this is
> >a great place.
> >
> >I’m 25 and I’ve been doing heroin since I was 18 and lately
> >mostly oxy’s. I will be doing ibogaine in a month and I have
> >some questions for anyone who can answer please.
> >
> >I have never done any drug treatment or the aftercare before
> >but reading what’s online in places and in this group nearly
> >all of you have gone through some of that or a lot of that,
> >but mostly none of you are doing it now to stay clean and
> >had bad experiences with it.
> >
> >I was wondering what some of you do or did to stay clean
> >right after ibogaine? Should I expect it to be very hard or
> >does the desire to stop using just go away? I’ve read about
> >the last month and a half of this list and I’ve read
> >Patrick’s articles and writings which are like wow, do you
> >want to get some coffee and talk, are you single? 😉 What I
> >mean is you’re a really smart weirdo who’s cute and wow can
> >you write! I read some of it and it’s you’re writing a acid
> >trip, how the f**k do you do that? And where do I get
> >whatever drugs you’ve done! 😉
> >
> >But what I mean is I’m interested and attracted by what you
> >are and what you say but at the same time I have to be real
> >and admit I have not the slightest idea what you’re talking
> >about most of the time.
> >
> >I know some of you here are doing all that too but I’m much
> >more interested in knowing what happens a week after
> >ibogaine? a month? I’ve read enough here to believe it works
> >and cleans you up but then what do I do? I hate the groups,
> >are there any different or better groups or anything.
> >
> >What I mean to say is some of you have progressed a long way
> >from being on heroin and gone to much different places but
> >what were all of you who made it and are clean years later,
> >doing a week after you got off heroin and did ibogaine! And
> >a month after. That exactly is my question.
> >
> >Thank you!
> >
> >erica
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Reposting Rick plus nicks questions
Date: November 18, 2002 at 3:52:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey i like what i hear here cuz what is said here stays here so i hear herehere! Anyways i am preparing to go for ibogaine treatment in middle january i am on  methadone 105 mgs down 5 today i am gonna try to switch back to heroin before the ibo T-ment. cuz i hear its easier to kick and i know it is. but i am going to mostly A.,A right now i used to go to 5 N.a meetings a week and 1 A.A. now i go to 4-5 A.A.meetings a week 1 heroin anonymous that uses the A.A big book stuff and 1 N.A. i found that there was alot more peple in A.A. with 4 or more years sober they claim and there i would say 7% with 10 years or more.But the ones with 10 or more almost never sign court signing papers cuz they hate the idea that someone is forced to go maybe to 1 or two meetings to check it out is alright but to be forced to go 3 times a week or more is nonsence it just hurts the meetings.I used heroin 30 mins.ago A.A. and N.A.  don’t really do that much to get me sober nor due they do more than a little to keep me sober i have found that its up to me but anyways I can say in all honesty A.A. has helped with the meeting of new people wich is key to the after care  of tratment.If i go back to the same places and same faces and paces of life i will go right back.and i do believe in complete abstinenece.cu “”! is too many and 1,000,000 is never enough” especially with a rock”: btu heroin has got me i live in Ann Arbor Michigan 25 mins. from the lovely wello kept city of Detroit.HAHA  Anyways i would like to find out as much info on as many after care things i can do and participate in aafter i get done  with the 6 meesly day detox wich i am scared is only half the amount of time that i need. What Works Really? what have you or you or you done after ibo treatment? I’m scared! I could take on two street fighters in an ally or a bull in a ring but opiate detox and sobriety scares me like i’m wearing a diaper in the fetal position. i have been to two in patient rehabs one for 9 days for H. then the other for 34 days wich i still thought wasn’t long enough. but the 34 days helped me so much i don’t know with ibo but cold turkey just heroin no methadone took me 3 weeks for my brain and body to detox and bye day 25 i was only sleeping 2 hours a night and thats not consecutive. So i am scared about getting down to about 25-30 mgs methadone then stopping switching to as little of heroin as possible maybe even try to skip a day and lock myself in a room or something.Help me! I know there is a better way. I know i will be happy if i can get through those first two moonths thats all i need then i can start some new good friendwwships.Oh sexual relationships inA.A are also Taboo for the first 9 months well i have been in A.A and N.A. for 4 years on and off and there was some pretty extensive breaks in there 9 months twice so whatever that means but there is not anything  magical at A.A. and when you do relapse there its hard to come back cuz you count everyday that you are sober{like a jail sentence might i add} so it sets you up for humiliation and despair when you use one day and you have to start at day one .but you go back and don’t tell anyone then now you are lying and keeping in lyes is one of the worst things for your psyche!so then you tell them a month later after they congradulate you on 6 months  and now your the sneaky lier whatever this sucks.I feel like this is my destiny sometimes.Me and some Heroin anonymou people call it junkie destiny which alot of us feel but i know that it can go away if you tell yourself the opposite when your sober. I have not had a taste of complete sobriety since january of last actually this year i went to rehab on 9/31 right after 9/11 which i remember getting woke up right after the first tower got hit i woke up in puddle of puke to see it. then rehab from9/31 till 11/3 then i stayed sober for 2 months it was so hard!soso hard the only thing keeping me from using was this girl i met i rehab then we went to A.A/N.A. meetings together and i think she could have been my wife but in JAN. i did 1 blow and told her a week later.Needless to say i had so much guilt. i wanted sobriety but i gave in spur of the moment. and i told her hey if i start using leave me alone i will rob you or get you to use i get very manipulative when full blown using so after i used once  she held the promise i made her keep in rehab cuz i did love her.I loved her so much i would rather have her sober without me than using with me so that depressed me and back to the addiction Nick goes and it was bad real bad!my using skyroketed to double i would do like  a gram a day and i had to sell drugs i knew i had to do something when i robbed one of my drug dealers right on the block and got in a high speed car chase. i prayed for a bullet in the head  and not in the stomach or anywere that would hurt cuz i was sick and tired but i got away with a couple of grams and swore i would stop i tryed to ween myself down but we all know how well self bargaining works. So i fgured it was death or methadone so i got on meth 8 or 9 months ago whatever it is.And shit i can’t knock meth totally cuz it does work for harm prevention.cuz 150mgs held me after a week or two enabling me to get a job. so here oi am strung out on metrhadone occasional heroin use. but still none the less stuck! Thats my story and i am sticking to it.i love and hate opiates so much!
The downward spiral of my life

Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Reposting Rick

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
>Erica,
> Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t
>much to
>add. Recovery is work. Increase your baseline Dopamine and
>Serotonin
>levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate
>to a
>completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand
>new
>adventure). Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as
>habits),
>and do whatever you find that works for you. The 12-steps work
>for some
>people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try
>SMART.
>Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to
>release
>endorphins and serotonin). Most “programs” are somewhat
>arbitrary and
>filled with dogma…but many people will require such an
>approach. Take
>what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU. If you are of a mindset
>that you
>don’t “buy in to,” someone telling you THIS IS THE WAY, THE
>ONLY
>WAY…WALK YE IN IT. bUT IF YOU ARE OF THAT MINDSET…WALK YE IN
>IT.
>
>_____________________________________
>Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
>Hampton Roads Clinic
>2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
>Hampton, VA 23666
>
>Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
>Fax: (757) 826-2772
>Cell: (757) 270-9839
>_____________________________________
>
>
> >>> randyhencken@hotmail.com 10/07/02 01:52PM >>>
>Erica,
>
>Congratulations on your preparation for a big change in your
>life. Hear
>
>this: It is not going to be easy. Ibogaine is the shit for
>opiate
>dependence and you are going to get off your habit without most
>of the
>
>nastiness and with dignity. What happens next is what is
>difficult.
>Don’t
>expect that you instantly won’t want to dope just because you had
>this
>crazy
>trip on iboga. You are going to have to work on yourself and
>be
>vigilant
>against picking up again. I watch a lot of people go through
>this
>treatment. The ones who succeed take a realistic approach. The
>ones
>who
>fall back into using expect that being clean, once they detox, is
>going
>to
>be easy. wrong. Doing dope is easy.
>
>The others have giving you some good advice. Check out SMART
>recovery
>it is
>a great program that is designed to be tailored to the
>individual. It
>is not
>a life long commitment either. The goal is you use their program
>for 3
>
>months to a year or so and then you put addiction behind you.
>Smart
>recovery is a not-for-profit entity as opposed to Rational
>Recovery.
>RR has
>a few great ideas and you can find them in Jack Trimpey’s “the
>small
>book”.
>But asides from that I wouldn’t shell out too much money in
>RR’s
>direction
>when you can gain equally good coaching through smart.
>
>And it’s true that 12-steps are garbage. They have been in
>existence
>for
>over 67 years and there has never been one scientific study that
>has
>proven
>their effectiveness. 12-steps are arbitrary and filled with
>dogma.
>You are
>probably a bright young women who can figure most things out
>for
>yourself.
>Don’t give up thinking just because your in recovery,instead
>learn how
>to be
>in charge of your own head.
>
>Don’t bother entering a residential treatment center either.
>The
>National
>Institute on Drug Abuse found that they are truly unnecessary and
>that
>is
>why outpatient treatment is on the rise.
>
>I really could go on and on about this subject, because I’m
>very
>involved in
>the recovery process. But I don’t want to be overwhelming.
>Visit the
>Smart
>web page www.smartrecovery.org
>
>Go to http://ibogaine-therapy.net/testimonials.htm and read my
>testimonial
>it will give you a good insight into my perspective on ibogaine
>and
>life
>there after.
>
>You can do it! Go get it!
>
>Randy H.
>
> >From: “Erica Theissen”
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: [ibogaine] what happens right after ibogaine?
> >Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 08:00:32 -1000
> >
> >Hi I’ve been reading this list for a while and think this is
> >a great place.
> >
> >I’m 25 and I’ve been doing heroin since I was 18 and lately
> >mostly oxy’s. I will be doing ibogaine in a month and I have
> >some questions for anyone who can answer please.
> >
> >I have never done any drug treatment or the aftercare before
> >but reading what’s online in places and in this group nearly
> >all of you have gone through some of that or a lot of that,
> >but mostly none of you are doing it now to stay clean and
> >had bad experiences with it.
> >
> >I was wondering what some of you do or did to stay clean
> >right after ibogaine? Should I expect it to be very hard or
> >does the desire to stop using just go away? I’ve read about
> >the last month and a half of this list and I’ve read
> >Patrick’s articles and writings which are like wow, do you
> >want to get some coffee and talk, are you single? 😉 What I
> >mean is you’re a really smart weirdo who’s cute and wow can
> >you write! I read some of it and it’s you’re writing a acid
> >trip, how the f**k do you do that? And where do I get
> >whatever drugs you’ve done! 😉
> >
> >But what I mean is I’m interested and attracted by what you
> >are and what you say but at the same time I have to be real
> >and admit I have not the slightest idea what you’re talking
> >about most of the time.
> >
> >I know some of you here are doing all that too but I’m much
> >more interested in knowing what happens a week after
> >ibogaine? a month? I’ve read enough here to believe it works
> >and cleans you up but then what do I do? I hate the groups,
> >are there any different or better groups or anything.
> >
> >What I mean to say is some of you have progressed a long way
> >from being on heroin and gone to much different places but
> >what were all of you who made it and are clean years later,
> >doing a week after you got off heroin and did ibogaine! And
> >a month after. That exactly is my question.
> >
> >Thank you!
> >
> >erica
>
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From: marshall cohen <marshall.cohen@lycos.co.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine legal status?
Date: November 17, 2002 at 10:23:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Enjoying the site very beautiful. Like the list has a lot of different perspectives
from the day to day dreary recovery chatter.

Where can I look up the status of ibogaine in different countries? Is it legal to
have it in the UK right now? Where is it against the law? Don’t mean to be thick but
I am at a loss as to where I can look up this information.

m.cohen

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From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] reposting Patrick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 7:21:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

it needs to be said. he says it well. anybody who wants to go to the 12 steps should go there but that it is some accepted treatment for anything is sick. it isn’t a program of attraction, it’s punishment. part of my probation is going to this fucking cult and getting my papers stamped. that’s a choice?

whoever said shit about Francis Moraes should fuck off and die. Francis is brilliant and he is so right. If you have a choice between ‘treatment’ in the 12 steps and prison, do the time, it will be less damaging.

if you want to do the steps do them. it is not right that this fucking sick bullshit is accepted by any medical establishment as treatment for anything.

.g

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:50:41 -0800 Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

I got distracted then found them just now 🙂

I must say that this isn’t to hassle anyone, but for some reason
I
responded very much to what Brendan said, which is that Patrick

has a entire spiritual path based on “go fuck yourself” which is

not true.

I watch what he does and he is all over the place with the
treatment pimps, there are some articles where I’m almost quoting

directly, but not exactly and it’s “every single day I’m clean is

a great big fuck you to every piece of shit that ever got in my

face and told me I could not do it this way” and then I read the

addiction series which was most excellent bro and he has a entire

12 step article and how to make it work with ibogaine written with

Dave Hunter who I think was working the steps or still is, because

he wanted to present that it doesn’t work for him and works for
a
lot of people.

I think that very worthy and give much credit because I can almost

see him writing it “something reasonable and intelligent” the
fucking treatment pimps “the 12 steps can work for some people
because” kill the fucking treatment pimps “what the 12 steps
really are” is a lot of shit.  and I’m not sure if I want to laugh

or say right on bro.

The reason this hits home for me so hard is because I experienced

all of that too. I was psychologically abused by the recovery
salespeople who fucked mucho dollars not from me but from my
insurance companies and I never got well until I got away from
them too. I’m not a alpha male or real aggressive so what I have

from all of that is a bad feeling inside which hurts. With
Patrick I think that turns to rage in about a second, I watch
Brett do that too.

And if I am honest about what I feel, what I feel is right on bro,

right fucking on! Speak the truth about addiction treatment and

addictionology, because there are so many of us who have suffered

so much at the hands of these fools who are supposedly helping?

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] One more from Rick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:58:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

And here is one more from Rick.

Time to go ride my bike and enjoy the end of the day.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
Hey…go easy on us “treatment pimps.”  I like the disease
model…insofar as we’re talking about neurological changes, learning
(neurochemical encoding), up-regulation of Dopamine sensitivity, etc.  I
don’t buy into the “stuck with this for life” crap.  I know plenty of
people who are cured, who were straigh out banging dope every day in the
sixties and seventies.  They changed.  They no longer have cravings, any
problems with relapse, nor do they go to “the rooms.”  Some people will
respond better to the “disease” model.  Others will not.  Whatever it is
that enables your biological material to re-adapt, and for the required
neurophysiological changes to take place…is what the answer is.

Unfortunately, most “treatment pimps” (60%) are former users who “found
the one true God” of AA or NA.  It worked for them, and the thinking
goes just as Patrick indicated…I was once one of you…everyone is
basically like me (or should be)…so you need to meet my god as well.
It’s not so much that they “know everything about nothing,” but that
they know what worked for them and they tend to be as rigid in their
thinking as a new convert to the holy faith of whatever it is that geeks
them up.  The basis of their reality is in their personality…most
often the SJ, the Sensing Judger…these are your box-thinking grunts,
who will excel with programs of rigid structure.  Whichever approach
works is probably doing the same sorst of things neurologically.

…just a few words to let you know there really are some half-way
decent treatment pimps out there.  They’re hard to find.  Too often, it
all boils down to playing cops and robbers.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] One more from Patrick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:57:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is the one I was talking about, excuse me, it is hard to find anything, this list generates a huge amount of email 🙂

Peace out,
Curtis

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :
On [Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 05:03:07PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| Erica,
|    Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t much to
| add.   Recovery is work.  Increase your baseline Dopamine and Serotonin
| levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate to a
| completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand new
| adventure).  Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as habits),
| and do whatever you find that works for you.  The 12-steps work for some
| people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try SMART.
| Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to release
| endorphins and serotonin).  Most “programs” are somewhat arbitrary and
| filled with dogma…but many people will require such an approach.  Take
| what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU.  If you are of a mindset that you

Rick,

I’m very sorry to tell you this, but alas, you do NOT qualify for the
dented gold star of Treatment Pimp.  I’m afraid you’re one of the
exceptions.

As far as treatment and the 12-step material goes; I have a negative
reaction to all of it, which is mostly emotional.  When I write shit, I
usually try to at least partially balance it out in some way, in the
addiction series, I co-wrote a piece with Dave, who was at the time,
working the steps; and still might be, I dunno ‘zactly.

The 12-steps are extremely old, eastern concepts for dismantling ego,
re-written specifically for drug-dependant individuals who are acclimated
to western culture.

That’s the steps.  Where people in thA ro0mZ have taken all this; tends to
be way the fuck out there.

As far as both the steps and treatment goes, in my personal observations
and experiences, I have seen both work out for people.  It just depends on
the person.

There is no one answer that is correct for everyone.  And for some people
who would NEVER break the cycle of drug-dependance using the standard
treatment and stepwork paradigms — such as, fer instance, ME — I find it
absolutely fucking disgusting that an entire industry thrives on selling
this bullshit as the ONLY way that works.

That just ain’t true.  Stating this is at best, ignorance.  At worst;
total fucking hypocrisy.  And the bottom line is: IT KILLS PEOPLE who
don’t have the opportunity to break out of that, and find their own truth.

Having been at the receiving end of this shit, I uhm, have some problems
with the whole entire scenario.

In closing, I do not believe that treatment is always inappropriate and
the stepwork completely ineffective.  There are a lotta people with a
variety of reasons for entering treatment, that have more to do with legal
issues, and what others want from them; who DO make progress in spite of
themselves, when dumped into paradigms that would absolutely not work for
others.

Statistics and studies are…  WhateverTheFuck.  You can spin the data in
any direction you want, to support any theory imaginable.  From what I’ve
personally seen: sumtimes shit works out, sumtimes it don’t.  <shrug>
There are no absolutes, pro or con.

Pretty much I agree with what Paul said; different things, for different
people, at different times.  The only single variable which is NOT
interchangeable is that YOU *must* do the work; whatever it happens to be.

Patrick

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Reposting Rick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:53:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Reposting Rick

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
Erica,
Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t much to
add.   Recovery is work.  Increase your baseline Dopamine and Serotonin
levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate to a
completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand new
adventure).  Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as habits),
and do whatever you find that works for you.  The 12-steps work for some
people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try SMART.
Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to release
endorphins and serotonin).  Most “programs” are somewhat arbitrary and
filled with dogma…but many people will require such an approach.  Take
what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU.  If you are of a mindset that you
don’t  “buy in to,” someone telling you THIS IS THE WAY, THE ONLY
WAY…WALK YE IN IT. bUT IF YOU ARE OF THAT MINDSET…WALK YE IN IT.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

>>> randyhencken@hotmail.com 10/07/02 01:52PM >>>
Erica,

Congratulations on your preparation for a big change in your life. Hear

this:  It is not going to be easy.  Ibogaine is the shit for opiate
dependence and you are going to get off your habit without most of the

nastiness and with dignity.  What happens next is what is difficult.
Don’t
expect that you instantly won’t want to dope just because you had this
crazy
trip on iboga.  You are going to have to work on yourself and be
vigilant
against picking up again.  I watch a lot of people go through this
treatment.  The ones who succeed take a realistic approach.  The ones
who
fall back into using expect that being clean, once they detox, is going
to
be easy. wrong.  Doing dope is easy.

The others have giving you some good advice. Check out SMART recovery
it is
a great program that is designed to be tailored to the individual. It
is not
a life long commitment either.  The goal is you use their program for 3

months to a year or so and then you put addiction behind you.  Smart
recovery is a not-for-profit entity as opposed to Rational Recovery.
RR has
a few great ideas and you can find them in Jack Trimpey’s “the small
book”.
But asides from that I wouldn’t shell out too much money in RR’s
direction
when you can gain equally good coaching through smart.

And it’s true that 12-steps are garbage.  They have been in existence
for
over 67 years and there has never been one scientific study that has
proven
their effectiveness.  12-steps are arbitrary and filled with dogma.
You are
probably a bright young women who can figure most things out for
yourself.
Don’t give up thinking just because your in recovery,instead learn how
to be
in charge of your own head.

Don’t bother entering a residential treatment center either.  The
National
Institute on Drug Abuse found that they are truly unnecessary and that
is
why outpatient treatment is on the rise.

I really could go on and on about this subject, because I’m very
involved in
the recovery process.  But I don’t want to be overwhelming.  Visit the
Smart
web page www.smartrecovery.org

Go to http://ibogaine-therapy.net/testimonials.htm and read my
testimonial
it will give you a good insight into my perspective on ibogaine and
life
there after.

You can do it!  Go get it!

Randy H.

>From: “Erica Theissen” <ericat@subdimension.com>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [ibogaine] what happens right after ibogaine?
>Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 08:00:32 -1000
>
>Hi I’ve been reading this list for a while and think this is
>a great place.
>
>I’m 25 and I’ve been doing heroin since I was 18 and lately
>mostly oxy’s. I will be doing ibogaine in a month and I have
>some questions for anyone who can answer please.
>
>I have never done any drug treatment or the aftercare before
>but reading what’s online in places and in this group nearly
>all of you have gone through some of that or a lot of that,
>but mostly none of you are doing it now to stay clean and
>had bad experiences with it.
>
>I was wondering what some of you do or did to stay clean
>right after ibogaine? Should I expect it to be very hard or
>does the desire to stop using just go away? I’ve read about
>the last month and a half of this list and I’ve read
>Patrick’s articles and writings which are like wow, do you
>want to get some coffee and talk, are you single? 😉 What I
>mean is you’re a really smart weirdo who’s cute and wow can
>you write! I read some of it and it’s you’re writing a acid
>trip, how the f**k do you do that? And where do I get
>whatever drugs you’ve done! 😉
>
>But what I mean is I’m interested and attracted by what you
>are and what you say but at the same time I have to be real
>and admit I have not the slightest idea what you’re talking
>about most of the time.
>
>I know some of you here are doing all that too but I’m much
>more interested in knowing what happens a week after
>ibogaine? a month? I’ve read enough here to believe it works
>and cleans you up but then what do I do? I hate the groups,
>are there any different or better groups or anything.
>
>What I mean to say is some of you have progressed a long way
>from being on heroin and gone to much different places but
>what were all of you who made it and are clean years later,
>doing a week after you got off heroin and did ibogaine! And
>a month after. That exactly is my question.
>
>Thank you!
>
>erica

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] reposting Patrick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:50:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I got distracted then found them just now 🙂

I must say that this isn’t to hassle anyone, but for some reason I responded very much to what Brendan said, which is that Patrick has a entire spiritual path based on “go fuck yourself” which is not true.

I watch what he does and he is all over the place with the treatment pimps, there are some articles where I’m almost quoting directly, but not exactly and it’s “every single day I’m clean is a great big fuck you to every piece of shit that ever got in my face and told me I could not do it this way” and then I read the addiction series which was most excellent bro and he has a entire 12 step article and how to make it work with ibogaine written with Dave Hunter who I think was working the steps or still is, because he wanted to present that it doesn’t work for him and works for a lot of people.

I think that very worthy and give much credit because I can almost see him writing it “something reasonable and intelligent” the fucking treatment pimps “the 12 steps can work for some people because” kill the fucking treatment pimps “what the 12 steps really are” is a lot of shit.  and I’m not sure if I want to laugh or say right on bro.

The reason this hits home for me so hard is because I experienced all of that too. I was psychologically abused by the recovery salespeople who fucked mucho dollars not from me but from my insurance companies and I never got well until I got away from them too. I’m not a alpha male or real aggressive so what I have from all of that is a bad feeling inside which hurts. With Patrick I think that turns to rage in about a second, I watch Brett do that too.

And if I am honest about what I feel, what I feel is right on bro, right fucking on! Speak the truth about addiction treatment and addictionology, because there are so many of us who have suffered so much at the hands of these fools who are supposedly helping?

I’m reposting Patrick and Rick’s messages, because the two of them always have good conversations, because they are like mucho similar people who are at opposite ends of treating people and having been treated, but it is obvious they have respect for each other so conversation takes place. That does not happen often.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :

<You too…?  I always try to chill, and then it BURSTS OUT again.>

Hum . . . How do I say this…  Thinking . . . Okay, try to think of most
addictionologists as a Christian Missionary Zealots who run around trying
to convert the natives to the one true path, and sells trinkets and
things.  They are COMPLETELY FILLED with sumthin’ or another; and want to
spread it around.

Fortunately, if you actually have belief and faith, in almost anything;
it’s not contagious.  It’s just very confusing…  As to why anyone would
want to fill their head with all that.

And really that’s okay, because there’s nothing wrong with Christianity.
The point at which it becomes a problem is when people attempt to inflict
this shit on you and CasT out tha Dem0nZ!  Even if it kills you.  Or, you
made friends with your demons, because an entire pantheon spins through
your headspace.

Over the course of trying to get unsprung and move out of drug-dependence,
many of us have had these people arrive with all this noise, deliver
lectures such as, “you must do it this way, or you will die!”  And then
attempt to indoctrinate you into their belief system no matter what.

There’s nothing wrong with the 12-steps.  There’s nothing wrong with the
Flat Earth Society either; it just doesn’t suit my needs.  And if my
reason for even being in contact with these people was seeking help for
that problem I usta have with bangin’ up dope.  It’s not very funny
anymore.

Those of us who have managed to break the cycle and crawl out of hell on
our own, and were exposed to these idiots in our faces at one point or
another; tend to have a violent psychotic reaction to hearing their
cliches, slogans, and affirmations.  A reaction that would be lacking in
someone who has not suffered emotional abuse from them.

Addictionologists tend to be experts at this little fantasy world they
live in; which granted is JUST FINE, if you want to join them there.  A
program of attraction not promotion.  Take what you find useful and leave
the rest…  Except, the way things work out, it’s more of a program of
coercion and harassment.  And being dumped into this cult is what passes
for “drug treatment.”

Most “drug treatment professionals” — by which I mean to say Treatment
Pimps  — I’ve been in contact with don’t know a fucking thing about
addiction, and are unwilling to listen or learn, because they already know
everything about nothing; and their entire persona, identity, and means of
leeching cash offa drug dependent individuals, revolves around selling the
completely iatrogenic “mysterious disease” of addiction.  Anything that
conflicts with this belief system is perceived as threatening.

The exceptions to that rule tend to, uhm, have a life.  By which I mean
some sort of happiness, peace, contentment; as opposed to the rest who
have pretty much set fire to most of that repeatedly, and are left with…
a mysterious disease; which they want to sell you.

And okay, I understand, you’re acting this way because basically, your
life sucks.  Bummer n’ all, but I’m already an expert at completely
fucking up my life; I don’t really need any help with that.

Additionology Today, the complete summary: I used to smoke crack or bang
dope — I will now spend at least 20 minutes telling war stories of how
fucked up I used to be, and the depths I sunk to in my pursuit of drugs —
and then I joined a cult.  You can too.  The End.  That’ll be $450
dollars.  Try to catch some meetings and share, you’ll feel better.

That’s pretty much it.  Toss in, “I used to be just like you,” and/or “I
understand completely,” with extra-bonus points thrown in for faking
sincerity and giving a good delivery.

And this is NOT true of everybody.  It’s just that for every exception,
there are 1001 sub-normal, low IQ idiots, who inflict psychological
damages on people as part of their control and ego-trip.  None of this
shit has anything whatsoever to do with “helping” anyone.  Although they
DO help some people.  In the process of helping some, they do damage to at
least as many, by filling their heads with nonsense about how their
inability to get in tune with this cult, has anything whatsoever to do
with stepping out of drug-dependence.

Whatever, I’m done venting.  For now anyway.

As far as SMART goes, I dunno, I’ve never done it.  But many people appear
to have extremely positive things to say about it, and scanning their web
site, I don’t see any mention of an imaginary disease, mysterious forces
beyond human comprehension, or Joining a Cult 101 materials; so check it
out if ya don’t like the 12-step noise.

Patrick

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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:42:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Art Hernandez wrote:

I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic depression,

ehehe. seems to be a more common trend than i had thought….i have a BA
in psychology and i work in IT… =)

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.net |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:34:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????

you mean like a diet pill?

it wouldn’t surprise me if it had some effect on weight, its rare that
people feel like eating during treatment…

I think that if effective it would be by breaking the habit of
overeating, if it was on the order of an addiction (i.e. a coping
mechanism for something that could be dealt with in a healthier
way). I believe that people have reported positive changes along
these lines, but don’t remember any specific reports.

Bill Ross

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:05:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Alison Senepart wrote:

Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????

you mean like a diet pill?

it wouldn’t surprise me if it had some effect on weight, its rare that
people feel like eating during treatment…

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 17, 2002 at 5:59:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brendan, this is not in any way to attack you or anything. I’m going to repost 3 messages about that whole series of conversations, one is Patrick’s, one is Rick’s, one is what I replied. It was the discussion about treatment pimps about a month back maybe a little longer. I can’t find my own messages to the list since the way I am set up it doesn’t save the same message twice, so I only have my original and then Patrick and Rick’s exact messages, which I will repost.

What I mean is my message doesn’t have the ibogaine list headers on it and I am cutting and pasting it into this window, I don’t want to confuse anyone anymore then I just did 😉

Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro, except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about people who you do not even know.

Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.

I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or what are you trying to solve?

Peace out,
Curtis

—repost of my previous message—

I haven’t been here longer then a few months and I only found
ibogaine through this place and did it in the real recent past and
it made a big difference. But I got clean without it.

Patrick is somebody different. He’s really smart and talented and
everything and we’re all here because of Mindvox but it is what
Rick said in the reply, that’s his journey it may not be exactly
yours and it wasn’t mine. I some of the time try to think what it
must feel like not even drug addiction but to have the secret
service and fbi chasing me around since birth or something and no
matter how bad you think you are if you’ve got that many people
trying to throw you in prison and you’re a kid whose 18 or 20 or
something that has to do a lot of things to your head. None of
them too good.

I experience what he writes about too in different ways but mine
are not nearly as violent or intense in any direction bad or good
and I don’t see any of the lights or the eyes or those things. I
think mostly Dave sees that too and goes there but most people do
not. I have more like what Rick has which are moments that I would
say are so sublime bro. And I’m learning to appreciate them.

I tried to get clean so many times, I did the treatment pimps too
and detox and rehab and everything and I worked for computer
companies and had insurance so all I ever saw were these big
numbers going across on my policy but they were huge. And it was
all for nothing. I didn’t start to get better until I got away
from both drugs and drug treatment.

I’ve got nearly 2 years clean now, I did ibogaine about 2 months
ago and will probably do it again because it helps so much bro.
But what works for me is nature, I love the mountains I like
getting away from all the things that stress me. I don’t do any 12
step stuff either, except once in a while. Because the problem I
have is I don’t know where to go to party anymore. I don’t go to
bars or clubs because for me that would make me relapse so fast.
So what do I do? Going to a meeting is the one place I can arrive
and it’s like I’m king of the hill because I have 2 years and
there is always some hottie who needs to be saved.

Who am I to say no? 🙂

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote :

I’m sorry about your son, being smart doesn’t help. All I’ve noticed is that it makes things harder, if you’re stupid you believe all that bullshit they try to shove down your throat a lot faster. Unfortunately I’ve also noticed that telling them they’re stupid and then doing my own thing has never helped either. The only person I know who has ever made that work is Patrick. He’s managed to turn ‘go fuck yourself’ into an entire spiritual path.

There are alot of others on here who say things that are interesting but I don’t know how many of them have ever been addicted to anything in the first place, how many of them are clean right now and I don’t mean doing entheogens or smoking pot and I don’t know how useful their advice is to anybody else.

I read things that some people say and then months later its oh I’ve never done ibogaine in the first place, I still have a habit, or I’m some crazy person who writes things to this list because it’s full of other crazy people. Or they did ibogaine just to do it and never were addicted to anything to begin with. Hard to say who to listen to.

MindVox needs to officially recognize Day Brown. His writings have become a important part of my day. Patrick may be all that, but Day Brown is the only philosopher who lives in a matriarchal drug cult in the Ozarks that I’ve ever seen before. I think that needs to be recognized. Day Brown is very special.

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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Out of Action- chapter 14 of Something in the Way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 5:46:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston that was truly excellent. Thanks for posting that, I can relate in too many ways. I’ve never taken the art of self destruction to the levels that you and Patrick did, but I think it’s been mentioned that all people whose names begin with the letter “P” and are seven letters long, are in a different world that exists right next to ours, only different 🙂

I know both of you are probably very busy but when you posted the videogame review excerpt from HT, I must say that my experience in getting away from heroin was very close to what you and Patrick again both agreed about. Which is that videogames help a lot to get take your mind off things. I did the same, every time I felt like I would go insane I just started to play another game and in a couple of minutes my mind was occupied elsewhere. Videogames and music were both very important for me when I was going through all those months when I felt like I was going to go crazy, jumping out of my skin wasn’t even the start of it bro, those were very bad times.

I was going to mention that to Marc when he posted how he doesn’t want his patients playing videogames at his iboga house, but decided not to at the time because he was obviously going through a very tough time with his son bailing for the street somewhere. So I’m mentioning it now. Videogames are a really big help in the beginning. Sure you waste your time and may overdo it, but bro you are not doing heroin while you are so occupied.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 preston peet wrote :
Greetings and salutations all.
I’ve posted yet another chapter from my book “Something in the Way” at DrugWar.com, full of sketches and photos, even a couple of pictures from way back when of Thomas in the throes of hard core drug abuse.

If anyone would care to introduce me to an agent who would like to help me sell this book and make us both some money so I can continue writing even more stuff, but in slightly more comfortable settings, please, do not hesitate to let me know.;-)))
Otherwise, take a few minutes to read this chapter, to put any current troubles you may have into perspective, as there’s always someone somewhere in even worse shape or trouble.

(more chapters can be found here at: http://www.drugwar.com/somethingintheway.shtm )

http://www.drugwar.com/sitwoutofaction.shtm

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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: something in the way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 2:54:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Bill.
Yes, I’ve come to the realization that including some illustrations really adds to the writing, giving it a whole nuther dimension. Plus, it’s a lot of fun posting the pictures too.
I never cease to be a bit amazed that I could climb so far up from what felt at the time like a hopeless bottomless pit. I was convinced it could never be done, that I would never, ever move beyond this stage.
Ah well, I was wrong.;-)))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin

—– Original Message —–
From: Bill Ross
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:52 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: something in the way

Great writing, Preston. The photos help to smack it in one’s
face as well.

Bill Ross

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: something in the way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:52:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Great writing, Preston. The photos help to smack it in one’s
face as well.

Bill Ross

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Out of Action- chapter 14 of Something in the Way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:10:26 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Greetings and salutations all.
    I’ve posted yet another chapter from my book “Something in the Way” at DrugWar.com, full of sketches and photos, even a couple of pictures from way back when of Thomas in the throes of hard core drug abuse.
If anyone would care to introduce me to an agent who would like to help me sell this book and make us both some money so I can continue writing even more stuff, but in slightly more comfortable settings, please, do not hesitate to let me know.;-)))
    Otherwise, take a few minutes to read this chapter, to put any current troubles you may have into perspective, as there’s always someone somewhere in even worse shape or trouble.
(more chapters can be found here at: http://www.drugwar.com/somethingintheway.shtm )
http://www.drugwar.com/sitwoutofaction.shtm
Out of Action
(chapter 14 of “Something in the Way”
by Preston Peet- copyright 2001)
posted at DrugWar.com Nov. 17, 2002
“Damnit, missed.”
“Hey man, you gotta be careful with that shit, you’re gonna wind up with an abscess or something,” Dan says, watching Thomas bend and flex his right arm, rubbing his elbow, trying to get at least some of the drugs into his system….
“Are you crazy?” Thomas is belligerent, insisting he can’t go to the hospital. “I’m out of dope. There’s no way I’m going to sit for hours in the waiting room without any dope. Tell you what. Loan me ten or twenty bucks. I’ll go out, score some stuff to take with me, then I promise, I’ll go.” The fact that his arm looks like an incredibly ugly sausage isn’t enough, nor the intense pain. Only the loaning of drug money, bribing him to save his own arm will work. She looks at him like he’s the crazy one, which of course he is.
(photo)
Thomas in a haze of pain and drugs
She’s really worried about his arm, thinking he is going to loose it. He might appear nuts, but she’s pretty sure it’s the drug abuses and prohibition stresses that’ve made him so. The second time over to her place, he’d brought a guitar he’d bought cheap off another junkie, and had proceeded to play and sing for her. He’d sold it three days later, but still, the thought he might not ever get to play again makes her sad, and determined to get him to the hospital any way she can. There’s no one else who can or will help, not even Thomas himself.
snip-
Read Chapter at above URL
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
”Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] S.F. plus other conferences
Date: November 17, 2002 at 12:53:44 PM EST
To: julia@sacreddance.org
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Good News: The Dempsey Center forum resulted in articles in the DAILY
CHALLENGE & JAMA, plus new people to work on the Ibogaine Working
Group (meets Thursday 4 to 6 pm at the HRC, 22 w. 27th – 5th fl.).

—————————————————-

San Francisco: November 29, 30  (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123

Friday nite reception TBA

Saturday@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm (could be til 1:45 if you need the extra time)
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters:  5 to 6 pm

$25 in advance, $35 at the door. To send checks, call Nelson for
street address:
———

Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297

@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424

4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa

——–

Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22)  01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958  projetiboga@no-log.org

@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle  01133140373928

Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM

$60 Euro admission

———

NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003  (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!

Friday $60
Saturday $30

——

Italy, Bologna:  Around the time of the NYC. conference. Details
being obtained.

—–

Pittsburg, Cleveland, Detroit,  Chicago, Madison, Minneapolis:

Late Feb & the first weekend of March:

From: “Brian Mariano” <mariano@ibogainetreatment.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] False positive
Date: November 17, 2002 at 7:03:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi everybody,
a funny thing happened to me in Germany few days ago on my way to Italy. I
got caught at the border with some ibogaine, which is not scheduled over
there but nevertheless  it wasnīt pleasant at all. The funny thing is that
the drug test that they used showed that it was a methamphetamine, which was
an obvious “false positive” result to me but not obvious to them. The
officer looked at me and said : “Probleme.GROSSE probleme.”. I told him that
itīs not what they think it is and that if they want they can send it to a
forensic lab. Then they used another test set and this time it didnīt show
any presence of the drug and eventually they let me go. I suppose that I
wouldnīt have got caught if I wouldnīt have carried through the border two
slovak hitch-hikers. An italian passport with two slovak passports must have
been a suspicious combination. The slovaks were less lucky.They let them get
completely naked and searched also their ass hole if they indeed werenīt
smuggling anything. Poor guys.
On another occasion a shipment got stopped and showed a false positive for
opiates. I got it back to me a month later after forensic test had been
done, which showed that it was ibogaine with trace amounts of ibogamine.
The message is the following:
If anything like this would happen to any of you (outside the US), donīt
worry, the test sets are not accurate at all and the “misunderstanding” will
get eventually settled.

Brian

From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] does anyone know who does this?
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:18:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Godsmack, the song is called Voodoo.

http://godsmack.com/

On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:08:33 -0800 Richard Davis <rjd1966@lycos.com> wrote:
sorry to post this question here but I thought someone might know
and Patrick did the same thing across half the lists on Mindvox,
of course mindvox is his but don’t hate me.

I was at a club tonight and walking out with my wife and there is
song I have no idea who it is by or who does it or where I would
ask so I thought I’d ask here, it goes “I’m not the one, I’m so
far away, when I feel the snake bite into my veins, never did I
want to be here again and I don’t remember why I came” it’s very
slow and has tribal drums but I think it’s some kind of alternative
or heavy metal mixture. Does anyone know what this is?

sorry again to post this here

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] does anyone know who does this?
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:08:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry to post this question here but I thought someone might know and Patrick did the same thing across half the lists on Mindvox, of course mindvox is his but don’t hate me.

I was at a club tonight and walking out with my wife and there is song I have no idea who it is by or who does it or where I would ask so I thought I’d ask here, it goes “I’m not the one, I’m so far away, when I feel the snake bite into my veins, never did I want to be here again and I don’t remember why I came” it’s very slow and has tribal drums but I think it’s some kind of alternative or heavy metal mixture. Does anyone know what this is?

sorry again to post this here

__________________________________________________________
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] it keeps getting better and better
Date: November 17, 2002 at 12:26:16 AM EST
To: vox@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

House votes life sentences for hackers

By Declan McCullagh

Special to ZDNet News
November 14, 2002, 4:45 AM PT

URL: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-965779.html

WASHINGTON–A last-minute addition to a proposal for a Department of
Homeland Security could punish malicious computer hackers with life in
prison.

The U.S. House of Representatives on Wednesday evening voted 299 to 121
to approve the bill, which would reshape large portions of the federal
bureaucracy into a new department combining parts of 22 existing
federal agencies, including the Secret Service, the Coast Guard, and
the FBI’s National Infrastructure Protection Center.

During closed-door negotiations before the debate began, the House
Republican leadership inserted the 16-page Cyber Security Enhancement
Act (CSEA) into the Homeland Security bill. CSEA expands the ability of
police to conduct Internet or telephone eavesdropping without first
obtaining a court order, and offers Internet providers more latitude to
disclose information to police.

In July, the full House approved CSEA by a 385-to-3 vote, but it died
in the Senate. By inserting CSEA into the Homeland Security bill, the
measure’s backers are hoping for a second chance before Congress
adjourns for the holidays.

“Defending against terrorists who can strike any time with any method
requires a change in our approach to the problem,” CSEA sponsor Rep.
Lamar Smith said in a statement. “We need a new government structure
with a clear focus and clear mission to protect Americans and increase
public safety. The new Department of Homeland Security will fulfill
that vital role.”

Earlier this year, Smith said: “Until we secure our
cyberinfrastructure, a few keystrokes and an Internet connection is all
one needs to disable the economy and endanger lives. A mouse can be
just as dangerous as a bullet or a bomb.” Smith heads a subcommittee on
crime, which held hearings that drew endorsements of CSEA from a top
Justice Department official and executives from Microsoft and WorldCom.

Citing privacy concerns, civil liberties groups have objected to
portions of CSEA.

“There are a lot of different things to be concerned about, but
preserving Fourth Amendment and wiretap standards continues to be a
critical test of Congress’ commitment of civil liberties,” Marc
Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said
Wednesday.

Rotenberg said that CSEA makes “ISPs more closely aligned with law
enforcement interests than customer confidentiality interests. It may
not be surprising, but it’s not good news.”

Democratic members of Congress said during Wednesday evening’s floor
debate that the Department of Homeland Security bill had been rushed to
the floor without everyone having a chance to read it. They did not
complain specifically about CSEA, which has already been approved
near-unanimously by the House.

“We were given a massive new bill this morning that is being rushed
through the House with no opportunity for debate,” said Rep. Henry
Waxman, D-Calif. “I doubt more than 10 people in Congress know (what’s)
in the bill.”

House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-Texas, replied by saying: “There
seems to be a concern that the bill is being rushed to the floor…This
was not rushed to the floor. We worked hard on it. We worked together
on it.”

What CSEA does
If approved by the Senate and signed by the president, who has called
for a Department of Homeland Security, the law would:

• Promise up to life terms for computer intrusions that “recklessly”
put others’ lives at risk. A committee report accompanying the
legislation predicts: “A terrorist or criminal cyberattack could
further harm our economy and critical infrastructure. It is imperative
that the penalties and law enforcement capabilities are adequate to
prevent and deter such attacks.”

• Permit limited surveillance without a court order when there is an
“ongoing attack” on an Internet-connected computer or “an immediate
threat to a national security interest.” That kind of surveillance
would, however, be limited to obtaining a suspect’s telephone number,
IP address, URLs or e-mail header information–not the contents of
online communications or telephone calls. Under federal law, such taps
can take place when there’s a threat of “serious bodily injury to any
person” or activity involving organized crime.

• Change current law, which says it’s illegal for an Internet provider
to “knowingly divulge” what users do except in some specific
circumstances, such as when it’s troubleshooting glitches, receiving a
court order or tipping off police that a crime is in progress. CSEA
expands that list to include when “an emergency involving danger of
death or serious physical injury to any person requires disclosure of
the information without delay.”

• Specify that an existing ban on the “advertisement” of any device
that is used primarily for surreptitious electronic surveillance
applies to online ads. The prohibition now covers only a “newspaper,
magazine, handbill or other publication.”

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:54:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dude, I feel bad for Art, least of which he just wrote that whole huge
thing to the entire list not private email.

Day Brown is tolerable when left to himself, when that born again
christian guy neuroskull and him all talk at once, I feel like smashing
my computer. I don’t need 50 mile long pieces of email about obscure
theology from the two of them. Don’t start them up again. Margeruite is
cool, she’s from the siddha yoga ashram and the one who posted photos
of herself with Kurt Vonnegut wearing the fuck bush button and holding
her sign at the UN protest.

What’s not that funny is the homeland security act. Welcome to 1984.

.:vector:.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28107.html

US gov’s ‘ultimate database’ run by a felon
By Thomas C Greene in Washington
Posted: 14/11/2002 at 20:22 GMT

We all know that truth is stranger than fiction, and here we have an
apparently real item straight from the realm of Tom Clancy. Imagine a
huge, absolutely huge, central database containing both the official
and commercial data of every single citizen, run by the US military
ostensibly for anti-terror and Homeland Security purposes, and all of
it under the direction of a convicted felon.

Well the database is in development and coming soon, according to the
New York Times; and the felon who will run it is disgraced Reagan
administration liar, dirty-trickster and cover-uper Admiral John M.
Poindexter, who Dubya has taken out of mothballs to keep us all safe
from dreadful evildoers.

Poindexter got caught up in a little Federal crime spree called
Iran-Contra a decade ago, stood trial and was convicted, but managed to
escape responsibility on an odd technicality.

As told succinctly by FAS.org, Poindexter was “Indicted March 16, 1988,
on seven felony charges. After standing trial on five charges,
Poindexter was found guilty April 7, 1990, on all counts: conspiracy
(obstruction of inquiries and proceedings, false statements,
falsification, destruction and removal of documents); two counts of
obstruction of Congress and two counts of false statements.

District Judge Harold H. Greene sentenced Poindexter June 11, 1990, to
six months in prison on each count, to be served concurrently. A
three-judge appeals panel on November 15, 1991, reversed the
convictions on the ground that Poindexter’s immunized testimony may
have influenced the trial testimony of witnesses. The Supreme Court on
December 7, 1992, declined to review the case. In 1993, the indictment
was dismissed on the motion of Independent Counsel.”

Now he’s in charge of the newly-invented Information Awareness Office,
a part of that mixed bag of good and bad, the US Defense Advanced
Research Projects Agency (DARPA), and he’s got his eye on basically
every scrap of data about every single citizen. The system Poindy is
preparing to unleash on us “will provide intelligence analysts and law
enforcement officials with instant access to information from Internet
mail and calling records to credit card and banking transactions and
travel documents, without a search warrant,” the NYT article says.

And he’s in no way embarrassed by his role ensuring that the US
military and federal law enforcement and intelligence spooks can quite
conveniently spy on the populace. He’s said openly that the US
government “needs to ‘break down the stovepipes’ that separate
commercial and government databases,” the article says.

Poindexter joins a slew of Reagan-era retreads and Iran-Contra alumni
now operating brazenly in Dubya’s bureaucracy. No doubt he feels quite
comfortable among such familiar company, though I doubt I could say the
same for the rest of us. Ū

— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

I’m sorry about your son, being smart doesn’t help. All I’ve noticed
is that it makes things harder, if you’re stupid you believe all that
bullshit they try to shove down your throat a lot faster.
Unfortunately I’ve also noticed that telling them they’re stupid and
then doing my own thing has never helped either. The only person I
know who has ever made that work is Patrick. He’s managed to turn ‘go
fuck yourself’ into an entire spiritual path.

There are alot of others on here who say things that are interesting
but I don’t know how many of them have ever been addicted to anything
in the first place, how many of them are clean right now and I don’t
mean doing entheogens or smoking pot and I don’t know how useful
their advice is to anybody else.

I read things that some people say and then months later its oh I’ve
never done ibogaine in the first place, I still have a habit, or I’m
some crazy person who writes things to this list because it’s full of
other crazy people. Or they did ibogaine just to do it and never were
addicted to anything to begin with. Hard to say who to listen to.

MindVox needs to officially recognize Day Brown. His writings have
become a important part of my day. Patrick may be all that, but Day
Brown is the only philosopher who lives in a matriarchal drug cult in
the Ozarks that I’ve ever seen before. I think that needs to be
recognized. Day Brown is very special.

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From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:23:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m sorry about your son, being smart doesn’t help. All I’ve noticed is that it makes things harder, if you’re stupid you believe all that bullshit they try to shove down your throat a lot faster. Unfortunately I’ve also noticed that telling them they’re stupid and then doing my own thing has never helped either. The only person I know who has ever made that work is Patrick. He’s managed to turn ‘go fuck yourself’ into an entire spiritual path.

There are alot of others on here who say things that are interesting but I don’t know how many of them have ever been addicted to anything in the first place, how many of them are clean right now and I don’t mean doing entheogens or smoking pot and I don’t know how useful their advice is to anybody else.

I read things that some people say and then months later its oh I’ve never done ibogaine in the first place, I still have a habit, or I’m some crazy person who writes things to this list because it’s full of other crazy people. Or they did ibogaine just to do it and never were addicted to anything to begin with. Hard to say who to listen to.

MindVox needs to officially recognize Day Brown. His writings have become a important part of my day. Patrick may be all that, but Day Brown is the only philosopher who lives in a matriarchal drug cult in the Ozarks that I’ve ever seen before. I think that needs to be recognized. Day Brown is very special.

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:45:43 -0700 Day Brown <daybrown@ozarkisp.net> wrote:
Marguerite wrote:

At 12:26 AM 10/22/02 -0500, you wrote:
Vigilius Haufniensis wrote:

it is my understanding that buddhism was the result of a reformation
of
hinduism shortly before the time mentioned here.
That sounds like the conventional view; I do not think so. The
recent data that China received Buddhism from the Tocharians
is a
clue that it arose, not in India, but on the Silk Road, where
the
traditions of many cultures were available for analysis.

Perhaps you are talking about Buddhism as it is practiced in China?
Perhaps, but not limited to.

Buddist scripture and history have been doctored just as the Levantine
scripture and History has. Things have been put in the mouth of
Jesus
for political and social agendas, and they have been put in the
mouth of
the Buddha for the same reasons.

So, trying to sort out the original sources for various sections
of text
is fraght with large ambiguities. I attack the question from the
other
end, and ask what place on the planet had the greatest exposure
to other
cultures and the ideas current in them? And the answer I get is
the the
merchants on the Silk Road, who like interstate truckers now, developed
their own amalgam of other cultures.

I find it noteworthy that saffron dyed clerical robes, shaven heads
with
fetlocks on boy monks, the Lotus icon, and eidetic patterns of artwork,

are all seen in the Minoan
frescos 3500+ years ago. Knossus has a room they call ‘The meditation
hall’, ie, an ashram.

Another funny thing about the Minoans, was that they had a _mercantile_
empire, trading from the Black sea to the Egypt, from the Levant
to
Malta. So- as at Asklar, they had exposure to a rich diversity of
religious tradition. It is only natural for them to engage in some
effort at synthesis, and to realize how common altered states of
consciousness were across all of these early religious traditions.

The earliest caucasian mummies found in NW china are 4000 years
old; so
there was a period in the 2nd mil BCE when merchants were able to
travel
from China to India and to Minoan Troy, with lots of time to talk
about
what they’d seen and heard in these places. The Buddha travels from
place to place on roads that were already in use; and whether all
the
ideas he had were innately his, or a synthesis of those he ran into,
is
a damn moot point. But, wherever the texts are found, as we see
in the
Levantine tradition, there are attempts by various locations to
claim to
be the venues of important events. I take the claims by India with
a
grain of salt on that account.

The literary traditions of China, India, and the Levant remained
intact;
those on the Silk Road did not, mostly because the greed, arrogance,
and
ineptitude of the Sakyas (now known as warlords) of Central Asia
killed
the goose that laid the golden egg, trade… with bribes and robbery.

But central Asia is the next big thing in archaeology. It usta be
that
one needed stone monuments in order to have anything to study. But
now,
they realize that if you look at a satellite infra red, you can
see the
ancient routes. And if you fly over them closer, you can see the
circles
of rocks on the ground. The merchants used rocks to hold down the
edges
of their tents in the desert wind. When they pull their tents, they
leave the circles of rocks for the next guy who camps there.

And when you go there, you find potsherds and stuff. The Prussians
collected 4000 pages of ancient text left at desert shrines as
offerings. You can look at them online at the university of frankfurt.
There is just an incredible amount of stuff out there, preserved
by the
arid/alkaline conditions, and now that the political situation is
settling down, new expeditions are being organized.  I can hardly
wait.

Marija Gimbutas, ‘The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe’, shows several
figurines in postures we recognize as ‘mediation’. They’re 7000
years
old. Some of the ‘Buddhist’ traditions go waaaaaay back.

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: Art Hernandez <arthernandez1999@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 9:37:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, I’ve too sent you mail at least twice and
never receive any replies. It wasn’t sent to kiss up
to you or waste your time, I understand you’re very
busy but please reply to me, I will send one more
email after this to the list.

I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic depression,
which I understand you are too. I’ve met many people
who are gifted at science, writing, speaking, etc but
I’ve never met anyone who moves back and forth through
all that, you’re not writing technical papers, you’re
writing prose that somehow mixes all of that and makes
it connect to people. That’s remarkable. I can read
you and get the same effect as taking LSD.

It took me a long time before I wrote you even once
because you’re someone I don’t know how to approach. I
know you have a very colorful past and have applied
your mind in ways that have upset a lot of people. But
in reading this list for months I’ve never seen you
attack anyone, I think you’re a really good person,
please take a little time to just reply to me.

I have a son, he’s 31 years old now. He finished high
school at 15, he received his BS at 20, he is not like
you but he is very smart. What I have now and have had
for almost 5 years is someone who has to be told that
he smells and needs to take a shower and change his
clothes. He does nothing but more heroin. I am
watching running sores on his arms get bigger and he
doesn’t stop. I don’t know what to do anymore, he has
been to detox so many times, he has been to treatment,
he always leaves treatment, I have taken him to
psychiatrists, counselors, everything. Nothing works.
I don’t know how to help him anymore, looking at him
now you would never believe what he was 5 years ago.

I have noticed that many on this list have high regard
for entheogenic drugs, but I don’t know how or if that
would help because I don’t understand how he can take
LSD, then do crack and heroin all in the same day. I
have done LSD and have great respect and thanks, but
he is not like that.

What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him? I’ve read
most of what you’re written about addiction and you
say almost the same things that he says, that it’s a
bad joke run my idiots. The problem is I don’t know
where to find anyone as smart as he is, or how to help
him. The difference is you made it, he’s not going to
make it. The best I can hope for right now is that
he’ll go to jail for a little while and that will slow
down the phone call that my son is dead somewhere. I
keep waiting for that.

How do I help him?

I will attend the Seattle conference and would love to
hear you speak, please I will pay for your time if you
will talk with my son, or can do anything to help him.
I don’t know what to do anymore and no matter who I
send him to he tells me they are stupid and they tell
me that he is beyond therapy and don’t know what to do
with him so send him to someone else.

I believe that conventional treatment will not work
for some people, but where do I send him for
unconventional treatment after ibogaine? I’ve even
read about where you went, but I don’t understand that
either. Thamkrabok appears in every newspaper listing
as being a temple that is a front for one of the
largest heroin smuggling operations by the tribe
people in Thailand and reading the latest reports from
the Bangkok post the army and the drug smugglers have
blown up parts of it and are vacating 30,000 people
from the area. Whatever it was, it isn’t there
anymore.

This is like saying you went to a crackhouse to clear
your head after doing ibogaine. I don’t understand how
that could have worked for you. Which is where I
started, I don’t understand how you do what you’ve
done, I don’t understand how to help my son and I
can’t find anyone else who does either.

Please reply to my email.
AH

— Alison Senepart <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
Poor rat..   I can relate to that whole thing.   I
havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for a
while now.  Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about.  I can stay clean for months at a time but
every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back to
reality, although it was
so good at the time.   Am pretty constant on 10mgs
methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and
hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future.  My partner is
on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down.  Guess
different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure out
their own solution.??
Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox

Hi, I found this through reading the addiction
series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t
focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t
reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does
it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read
some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all
the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but
i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.

thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((

laurie

<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com

Yo, that wasn’t me.  That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I

Addiction?

Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful,
mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and
operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.

But unstable and FLYING out of everything.

Or was that my universal remote…

The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.

People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the
events
in question.

Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is
awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it
destroys
things.  I will never do fire again!  In fact I
will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.

Yeah, well, okay.  If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what?  It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong

or more specifically, incomplete.  Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.

And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively
using
drugs…  it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives.  Most people are not all
that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of
the
time.  The only thing that separates you from them,
is
you have partially learned something they don’t
know
about.  If you’re feeling like shit, or even if
you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to
the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but
somehow
totally different.

Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.

What all this means is: congratulations, you’re
human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness.  Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles
until
they get dizzy.  It’s all the same thing.

If you have the specific goal of moving away from
drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances,
the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for you,
or
the consequences of continued use —  in current
society —  are too high a price to pay.  I can
offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.

To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology.  We can for
example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular
molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.

Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…?  Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding?  Uhm…
Probably
not.  The only higher power it has come into
contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.

However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, “hmmm,
I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects.  The only thing I have to look forward to
is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me
in
the garbage.  Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I
hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
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From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 3:32:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Correct, the panel is on Saturday, Nov. 30th
Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
So then the panel is on saturday?

>From: Mundo Real
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
>Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>The reception on Friday Nov. 29th will be at a location TBA shortly.
>thanks.
> Randy Hencken wrote:Hi all,
>
>Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at
>the end of the month. I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th
>but only saw an itinerary for one day.
>
>Randy
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>
>
>
>———————————
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 3:14:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We move into our Iboga Therapy House tomorrow!

Our technique now has been refined to a first iboga session to cut the
physical addiction, then a follow up second seession 2 – 4 weeks later for
the visualizations, when there is little or no drug in the patient’s system.
Our patients are doing very well after the second session. The world opens
up for them after the visualization experience.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House
Vancouver, B.C.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox

Allison

I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about.

Simply blink and the image will change – instantly/as
quick as a blink. If you want to turn the images off,
open your eyes and turn up the lights a bit. It is
very much like a dream, eyes closed, ya dream, eyes
open ya don’t. Also, most opiate addicts have few or
no visions/dreams however because they are addicted to
an opiate, they get in a dark space for a while. Many
of those I have spoken to who have done ibogaine while
addicted to opiates and after, prefer the post
addiction ibogaine session with visions more than the
while addicted sessions.

Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????

Not sure of your question but you will likely lose
weight once you give up the meth. The ibogaine session
and recovery will very likely knock a few pounds off.
I am not a believer in diets but do believe in diet
(as in good ones), post ibo there is some tendency to
eat better by some, I didn’t like coffee or anything
sweet, some people won’t smoke… It is like your
habits are somewhat disconnected (well so is your
mind…) and you are given the opportunity to either
re-connect them as they were or culture them into
something new.

Laurie

I have done detoxes but I always feel like i will >
?> jump out of my skin afterwards. is ibogaine not
like > that? i use heroin not very much crack.

Typically, no, you are not going to jump out of your
skin – can it happen, sure. Ibogaine does a bunch of
things anywhere from 0-100%, like removal of physical
addiction from opiates would be in the 90% of the
people 90% of the withdrawal (removed) or better 90%
of the time (just a ballpark ), it can do the same
thing with cravings and usually does pretty well. Over
all most of the time it is going to knock 8 out of 10
notches (assuming getting clean without ibo is a 10 on
the scale of how hard it is to do), so you are on a 2.
You still have to do work, you may still have some
minor cravings/withdrawal symptoms, still have to
maintain some self-control – eg running to the good
doctors to medicated you to get rid of these symptoms
is NOT usually a positive thing, still have to want to
get a life and go out and do it – not just sit there
basking in the ibo-glow (which passes). Ibogaine
offers an opportunity, you still have to walk through
that door – and may have to do it several times…
Again, post-opiate addiction, the ibo is very
different. Do not fear it, that is what your addiction
wants you to be – afraid.

Excuse me if I am muddling some text, I did a number
on my cornea the other day and can’t see too well.
FWIW, it is pretty serious and very painful. I didn’t
take “drugs” (I do have em handy) cause I just didn’t
feel like it and was able to turn most of the pain off
without them. Taking drugs for pain makes me
less/unable to do that, I get cranky/edgy… I
actually got quite wacked from turning up the
endorphins, if drugs were that good I would still be
using them. Brett

__________________________________________________
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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 2:40:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So then the panel is on saturday?

From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)

The reception on Friday Nov. 29th will be at a location TBA shortly. thanks.
Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:Hi all,

Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at
the end of the month. I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th
but only saw an itinerary for one day.

Randy

_________________________________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Brian Mariano” <mariano@ibogainetreatment.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Exorcism
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:51:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Has anyone here experienced spirit possesion – or more to the point: the
removal of [or excorcising spirit possesion ]with the use of Ibogaine?

-gamma

Yes, it happened this summer when I was treated a non-addicted 30 years old
female. She was  suffering from an eating disorder (bulimia) and wanted to
try an ibogaine treatment with the hope of getting healthy again.
Fortunately this first treatment really took her bulimia again. About two
weeks later she expressed the desire to go through the treatment again. She
was administered the ibogaine at lunchtime.She got into a “bad trip” at
about 2 a.m. (about 12 hours later), I had to be at her bed and talk to her
all night long so that she wouldn`t get lost in the hellish realms that were
overwhelming her. At noon she started to process in a very structured way
all sorts of psychological and relationship related material in a very
emotional way. This two hours long processing ended with a sort of
auto-exsorcism when she was fighting with the devil inside of her. I can say
that it was pretty scary, never seen anything like this. Definitely not an
ordinary ibo-treatment. After the treatment she made changes in her life
like quitting an unfulfilling relationship where they used to quarrell all
the time and similar. According to what she says only now she really started
to live.
I don`t recall all the detailes now, many of the things she was screaming in
norvegian.
Do you now of a similar case, Gamma ?

Brian

From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 12:12:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The reception on Friday Nov. 29th will be at a location TBA shortly. thanks.
Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at
the end of the month. I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th
but only saw an itinerary for one day.

Randy

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 12:01:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,

Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at the end of the month.  I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th but only saw an itinerary for one day.

Randy

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

From: “R. A. Venglarcik” <raven@sybercom.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:48:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Alison,
Have you considered the occasional/regular use of entheogens
post-methadone?  You indicate that you can “stay clean for months at a
time.”  Perhaps you would benefit from such a psychoactive “booster” to
maintain long-term.

—–Original Message—–
From: Alison Senepart [mailto:aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:16 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox

Poor rat..   I can relate to that whole thing.   I havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for a while now.  Must
admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of stuff others have
talked
about.  I can stay clean for months at a time but every so often give in
to
the temptation and then have to try and get back to reality, although it
was
so good at the time.   Am pretty constant on 10mgs methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and hopefully I will be able
to
drop that again in the near future.  My partner is on 85mgs a day and is
not
interested at all in dropping his dose down.  Guess different things
work
for different people and everyone has to figure out their own
solution.??
Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox

Hi, I found this through reading the addiction series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.

thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((

laurie

<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com

Yo, that wasn’t me.  That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I

Addiction?

Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful, mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.

But unstable and FLYING out of everything.

Or was that my universal remote…

The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.

People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the events
in question.

Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it destroys
things.  I will never do fire again!  In fact I will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.

Yeah, well, okay.  If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what?  It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong –
or more specifically, incomplete.  Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.

And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively using
drugs…  it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives.  Most people are not all that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of the
time.  The only thing that separates you from them, is
you have partially learned something they don’t know
about.  If you’re feeling like shit, or even if you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but somehow
totally different.

Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.

What all this means is: congratulations, you’re human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness.  Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles until
they get dizzy.  It’s all the same thing.

If you have the specific goal of moving away from drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances, the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for you, or
the consequences of continued use —  in current
society —  are too high a price to pay.  I can offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.

To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology.  We can for example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.

Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…?  Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding?  Uhm…  Probably
not.  The only higher power it has come into contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.

However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, “hmmm, I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects.  The only thing I have to look forward to is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me in
the garbage.  Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 10:59:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Allison

I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about.

Simply blink and the image will change – instantly/as
quick as a blink. If you want to turn the images off,
open your eyes and turn up the lights a bit. It is
very much like a dream, eyes closed, ya dream, eyes
open ya don’t. Also, most opiate addicts have few or
no visions/dreams however because they are addicted to
an opiate, they get in a dark space for a while. Many
of those I have spoken to who have done ibogaine while
addicted to opiates and after, prefer the post
addiction ibogaine session with visions more than the
while addicted sessions.

Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????

Not sure of your question but you will likely lose
weight once you give up the meth. The ibogaine session
and recovery will very likely knock a few pounds off.
I am not a believer in diets but do believe in diet
(as in good ones), post ibo there is some tendency to
eat better by some, I didn’t like coffee or anything
sweet, some people won’t smoke… It is like your
habits are somewhat disconnected (well so is your
mind…) and you are given the opportunity to either
re-connect them as they were or culture them into
something new.

Laurie

I have done detoxes but I always feel like i will >
?> jump out of my skin afterwards. is ibogaine not
like > that? i use heroin not very much crack.

Typically, no, you are not going to jump out of your
skin – can it happen, sure. Ibogaine does a bunch of
things anywhere from 0-100%, like removal of physical
addiction from opiates would be in the 90% of the
people 90% of the withdrawal (removed) or better 90%
of the time (just a ballpark ), it can do the same
thing with cravings and usually does pretty well. Over
all most of the time it is going to knock 8 out of 10
notches (assuming getting clean without ibo is a 10 on
the scale of how hard it is to do), so you are on a 2.
You still have to do work, you may still have some
minor cravings/withdrawal symptoms, still have to
maintain some self-control – eg running to the good
doctors to medicated you to get rid of these symptoms
is NOT usually a positive thing, still have to want to
get a life and go out and do it – not just sit there
basking in the ibo-glow (which passes). Ibogaine
offers an opportunity, you still have to walk through
that door – and may have to do it several times…
Again, post-opiate addiction, the ibo is very
different. Do not fear it, that is what your addiction
wants you to be – afraid.

Excuse me if I am muddling some text, I did a number
on my cornea the other day and can’t see too well.
FWIW, it is pretty serious and very painful. I didn’t
take “drugs” (I do have em handy) cause I just didn’t
feel like it and was able to turn most of the pain off
without them. Taking drugs for pain makes me
less/unable to do that, I get cranky/edgy… I
actually got quite wacked from turning up the
endorphins, if drugs were that good I would still be
using them. Brett

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] nyc conference today- report?
Date: November 16, 2002 at 8:55:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey all,
If anyone made/makes it to any of the conferences/forums today, I would be more than happy to post a report(s) on the day at drugwar.com. (Howard L. perhaps could write up a short report?)
I made it to 14th St.’s 2 and 3 trains this morning before turning around and coming home. I’m not feeling too well at all today, and I must extend my apologies to Dana.

Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines

From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 5:15:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Poor rat..   I can relate to that whole thing.   I havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for a while now.  Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of stuff others have talked
about.  I can stay clean for months at a time but every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back to reality, although it was
so good at the time.   Am pretty constant on 10mgs methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future.  My partner is on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down.  Guess different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure out their own solution.??
Allison   PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox

Hi, I found this through reading the addiction series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.

thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((

laurie

<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com

Yo, that wasn’t me.  That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I

Addiction?

Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful, mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.

But unstable and FLYING out of everything.

Or was that my universal remote…

The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.

People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the events
in question.

Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it destroys
things.  I will never do fire again!  In fact I will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.

Yeah, well, okay.  If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what?  It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong –
or more specifically, incomplete.  Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.

And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively using
drugs…  it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives.  Most people are not all that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of the
time.  The only thing that separates you from them, is
you have partially learned something they don’t know
about.  If you’re feeling like shit, or even if you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but somehow
totally different.

Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.

What all this means is: congratulations, you’re human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness.  Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles until
they get dizzy.  It’s all the same thing.

If you have the specific goal of moving away from drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances, the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for you, or
the consequences of continued use —  in current
society —  are too high a price to pay.  I can offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.

To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology.  We can for example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.

Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…?  Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding?  Uhm…  Probably
not.  The only higher power it has come into contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.

However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, “hmmm, I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects.  The only thing I have to look forward to is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me in
the garbage.  Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] stoner interlude- videogame review
Date: November 16, 2002 at 4:49:38 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
Way back when, someone suggested I play videogames to counter the withdrawals from methadone.
LOL, I had to say then, and now, that I was way, way ahead of them.
So, in the interest of nothing but diversion and killing time, here’s my latest game review for HT, for any other stoner videogame freaks out there.

http://www.hightimes.com/htsite/lounge/content.php?page=lounge_02111211&tpage=1=

Soldier of Fortune II – Double Helix
(PC — Activision)

You are John Mullins, a soldier of fortune working for a super-secret mercenary organization known only as “The Shop.” You’ve been hired to track down an army of evil terrorists who are plotting to unleash a deadly biological plague, the Gemini Virus, upon the citizens of the world.

US politicians often bleat about how videogames can make children violent, conveniently forgetting that real live wars perpetrated by these same politicians may be even more suggestive to US children. That said, this is not a game for the blood-shy and faint of heart. Mullins is a killer. To accomplish his various missions on the way to eradicating the terrorists and their conspiracy, he must blow away hundreds of dastardly criminals all over the world, from Prague to the jungle of Colombia and beyond. Running on the Ghoul II technology coupled with the Quake II Team Arena engine, this game looks sharp. Shoot a bad guy in any of 36 different damage and 16 dismemberment zones, and watch blood spray and body parts disintegrate. If Mullins stays in place long enough, the bright red blood puddles under his victims then darkens as it dries.
snip-

Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Harm Reduction Coalition Seeking Articles and Artwork for “The Anonymous Issue”
Date: November 16, 2002 at 1:17:08 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>, “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <emdef@emdef.org>, <dsusa@dancesafe.org>, “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.drcnet.org/wol/263.html#anonymous

Harm Reduction Coalition Seeking Articles and Artwork for “The Anonymous
Issue”

The Harm Reduction Coalition is seeking article submissions for “The
Anonymous Issue” of HRC’s newsletter, “Harm Reduction Communication. The
Anonymous Issue is a forum for drug users to discuss issues of importance to
them in anonymity.

HRC is especially interested in topics related to user involvement in the
harm reduction movement, be it as paid employees, volunteers or
participants, including the contradictions that face a movement that seeks
the participation of active drug users, yet has a hard time engaging in a
public dialogue about what this means; the problems active use causes in the
workplace; the reluctance of funders to channel money to people who are
viewed as criminals by the larger society; the struggles coworkers and
administrators have in addressing issues that require a new language and way
of thinking. HRC seeks to generate a dialogue, not solely to criticize, but
to generate creative solutions and develop a vision where harm reduction can
live up to its promise.

Send commentary, personal accounts, “how to” pieces, interviews, research
reports, artwork and anything else that comes to mind (except poetry), up to
4000 words, by January 31, 2003, to pcherash@harmreduction.org, text
double-spaced in MS Word or Corel Word Perfect, artwork in Photoshop,
Illustrator EPS, Quark XPress or Adobe Pagemaker. Submissions can also be
sent by mail to: Paul Cherashore, Publications Coordinator, Harm Reduction
Coalition, 22 West 27th Street, 5th Floor, New York, NY 10001.

Call (202) 213-6376 ext. 16 or e-mail pcherash@harmreduction.org for further
information. Visit HRC and learn about their December 1-4 conference in
Seattle at http://www.harmreduction.org online.

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 15, 2002 at 10:58:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/15/02 7:09:38 PM, lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk writes:

I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((

All I can offer is my personal experience and that is: Ibogaine was the most
wonderful experience to happen in my life. I kicked methadone with it, and I
didn’t feel like jumping out of my skin afterwards. I didn’t feel all that
great physically, but I’d say 90% of the withdrawal sypmtoms were non-existant.
after 20 years of various drugs, the last six heroin/cocaine, and 4 years of
methadone my physical state wasn’t that great, I had the pallor of your local
concrete sidewalk. BUT: I had no desire to use. I was in Italy at the time and
the town I was staying in had quite a poulation of local street addicts.
everywhere i went I say people copping, fixing, hustling and s0-on. and not a
once did it draw me in.

in other words the obsession and compulsion were removed. For me, it was a very
spiritual experience and I drilled down to the core issues in 36 short hours.
-Years of 12 step or [psycho]therapy couldn’t come close to the revelations I
had. Other people I know didn’t experience anything of the sort but that is
their story, this is mine.

Post Ibogaine is a really important time to nurture yourself & do some
follow-up, things like eating healthy food, taking vitamins/supplements, get
some decent excercise, get out into nature if possible, lay off the old
habits/routines and find something really cool to do with your extra time, like
a long abandoned hobby or something entirely new and exciting and hopefully
legal. find a hip therapist, explore yourself. and check in here from time to
time. we’re all doing it, more or less.

Best of luck and feel free to ask questions,

-Gamma

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 15, 2002 at 8:01:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/15/02 7:09:38 PM, lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk writes:

I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((

The reports are all different because people are trying to provide true
accounts of what can be expected.  If you have been around other people
kicking dope you know people have different responses to anything they use to
kick.  In my opinion ibogaine when it works well will have you feeling better
after detoxing than you can possibly imagine, or not.  You are simply going
to have to do it to find out what it is like for you.  We may be promising
paradise but, it is conditional.

Howard

www.ibogaine.org/clin-perspectives.html
www.ibogaine.org/treatment.html
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/treatment.html

From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 15, 2002 at 7:07:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi, I found this through reading the addiction series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.

thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((

laurie

<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com

Yo, that wasn’t me.  That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I

Addiction?

Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful, mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.

But unstable and FLYING out of everything.

Or was that my universal remote…

The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.

People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the events
in question.

Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it destroys
things.  I will never do fire again!  In fact I will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.

Yeah, well, okay.  If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what?  It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong –
or more specifically, incomplete.  Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.

And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively using
drugs…  it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives.  Most people are not all that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of the
time.  The only thing that separates you from them, is
you have partially learned something they don’t know
about.  If you’re feeling like shit, or even if you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but somehow
totally different.

Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.

What all this means is: congratulations, you’re human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness.  Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles until
they get dizzy.  It’s all the same thing.

If you have the specific goal of moving away from drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances, the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for you, or
the consequences of continued use —  in current
society —  are too high a price to pay.  I can offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.

To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology.  We can for example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.

Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…?  Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding?  Uhm…  Probably
not.  The only higher power it has come into contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.

However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, “hmmm, I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects.  The only thing I have to look forward to is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me in
the garbage.  Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Purchasing 25 grams of iboga extract
Date: November 15, 2002 at 4:15:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What price can you give me if I buy 25 grams from you?

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂

http://ethnobotany.yage.net/ibogex.html
Here is an extraction and purification link

Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Nicholas Labus
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂

hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh and is there any other hallucinogenic roots that resemble ibogaine roots. Cuz friend said for fact he got mind hallucinatios and felt nauseios from just a little bit of the bark from 3 other roots i don’t know what to make of it he is not lying
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought  i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern  out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much

P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week.  i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)

MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox

.:vector:.

— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>

__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Still Raining, Still Dreaming: off the wall comments & coming out of lurk mode
Date: November 14, 2002 at 9:40:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours after ingestion…

I was still peaking long after the 18 hour mark as well. Luminescant DNA
ribbons, fractals of euphoria and the reflective bubbles…reflecting me back
at myself.

Glad to see the sys admin hasn’t shut us down yet. phew. Mr Wilson would be
proud of us, I think. Did that guy (Hal Lindsey) think ibo was a maintenence
drug or something? Now THAT would be exhuasting!

BTW, a great read: 12 step Horror Stories.

Has anyone here experienced spirit possesion – or more to the point: the
removal of [or excorcising spirit possesion ]with the use of Ibogaine?

-gamma

p.s. apologies to youz who may have contacted me off list (BC), I’ve been
laying off the computer, dealing with neck injury. some kind of weird pain
karma being worked out this year. I’ll be slowing getting back to you(z).

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 6:56:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Advanced admission for the SF forum is $25 ($35 at the door), lunch will not be provided but there are many restaurants nearby. Checks or money orders may be sent to Nelson Comerci at 1530 Gough St. #601, SF CA 94109. The reception on the 29th will take place from 6:00 pm to 10:00 pm at a location to be announced shortly. thanks.
Joshua Tinnin <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Thanks, Dana. Is there admission for the SF event, and which day will the
events listed be held? It says 29, 30, but there is only one day’s schedule.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal”

Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:

San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia
(707)987-8123

@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 6:53:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I believe that has been taken care for the SF forum, thanks.
Joshua Tinnin <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com> wrote:
I could probably find someone to film the one in SF, unless that has already
been taken care of.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nicholas Labus”

Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape i bet others
will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there
soon

Dana Beal wrote:”HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions

Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm

Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00

$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME

The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.

In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.

(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)

For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035

(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)

or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)

Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:

San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123

@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———

Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297

@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424

4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa

——–

Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org

@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928

Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM

———

NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!

For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Extremely Important and Urgent Question (the fate of universes hangs in the balance)
Date: November 14, 2002 at 6:28:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Very close. It’s David from Disturbed, Marilyn Manson and the Korn guy. It’s a outtake from the Queen of the Damned soundtrack. It’s on Kazaa, enter some combination of those names and it comes up.

Mindvox, will it be opening now that it works? Enquiring minds want to know.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:56:10 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
WHO is doing the cover of “Pressure” (the Billy Joel song,) that’s
hitting
rotation right now on alt-rock stations.  It is absolutely fucking
brilliant, and sounds like Disturbed (however, I don’t think it
is…
Unless it’s some random unlisted B-side that is noted nowhere).

I can’t find it.

Thanks, this was a brief intermission; you may go about your life
now.

Patrick

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Extremely Important and Urgent Question (the fate of universes hangs in the balance)
Date: November 14, 2002 at 5:56:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com, crashtestdummies@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

WHO is doing the cover of “Pressure” (the Billy Joel song,) that’s hitting
rotation right now on alt-rock stations.  It is absolutely fucking
brilliant, and sounds like Disturbed (however, I don’t think it is…
Unless it’s some random unlisted B-side that is noted nowhere).

I can’t find it.

Thanks, this was a brief intermission; you may go about your life now.

Patrick

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 3:29:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I could probably find someone to film the one in SF, unless that has already
been taken care of.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nicholas Labus” <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>

Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape  i bet others
will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there
soon

Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:”HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions

Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm

Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00

$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME

The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.

In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.

(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)

For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035

(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)

or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)

Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:

San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123

@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———

Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297

@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424

4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa

——–

Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org

@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928

Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM

———

NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!

For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 3:26:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks, Dana. Is there admission for the SF event, and which day will the
events listed be held? It says 29, 30, but there is only one day’s schedule.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>

<snip>

Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:

San Francisco: November 29, 30  (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia
(707)987-8123

@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters:  5 to 6 pm
———

<snip>

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:30:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape  i bet others will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there  soon
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions

Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm

Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00

$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME

The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.

In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.

(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)

For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035

(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)

or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)

Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:

San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123

@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———

Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297

@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424

4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa

——–

Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org

@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928

Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM

———

NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!

For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:30:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape  i bet others will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there  soon
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions

Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm

Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00

$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME

The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.

In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.

(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)

For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035

(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)

or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)

Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:

San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123

@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———

Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297

@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424

4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa

——–

Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org

@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928

Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM

———

NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!

For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:28:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

right on man I’m hip. i think this methadone is finally starting to truly take control of  my body i feel weak my muscles ache constantly i general i just feel unhealthy.fuck the bullshiti was on 130mgs now i am at 110 i am gonna start detoxing nex week like 5 mgs a week till i get down to 60mgs or unless the withdrawl insomnia w/muscle aches gets to be too much hey whats the tip on the buprenorphine around here is there docs or do you know more about it.yes i used to be hip to all that i had a friend that died of cancer and towards the end she would just give me her  whole boddle of Roxanol for 8ball of Rock Good deal huh! Cuz she couldn’t leave the house there ain’t nothing like a 800mg morphine sulphate + 3,000mg liguid morphine + valiums and xanax and they even gave her speed the real shit so she could stay awake. which i got some of.Fuck a speedball When you got prescription morphine and speed throw in a hit of exstacy every once in awhile.I think its a crime to  denie a dyings persons  wishes for some mdma. I seen that stuff bring her back to life i swear cuz she was on so many meds for pain.The opiates did as much damage as the cancer.It ate away the calcium in her legs then what bone was left the cancer attached itself too.Sue may you  rest in peace! i love you so much! i hope your in a good place now.  But thats my story
GM40JM98@aol.com wrote:
Yes, My name is jim,My # at Project Life is 776 I was the 776th person under
Dr.Wolfs control,I now go th the Parkview clinic on University Dr. bet.Opdyke&
MLK Blvd..Give me a tx so we can holler right,I am also trying to find a DR
th help me off this shit and to deal with my many pains using
Fentanyl,Duragesic TTS Patches…..
You hip to those? My hookup is 1-(248)333-3735 KEEP IN TOUCH OUR COMBINED
KNOWLEDGE AND RESOURCES ARE OUR SALVATION.peace

 

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Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] PLEASE unsubscribe
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:07:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/14/02 10:18:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

PLEASE unsubscribe andriaem@drugscope.org.uk

From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:04:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, My name is jim,My # at Project Life is 776 I was the 776th person under
Dr.Wolfs control,I now go th the Parkview clinic on University Dr. bet.Opdyke&
MLK Blvd..Give me a tx so we can holler right,I am also trying to find a DR
th help me off this shit and to deal with my many pains using
Fentanyl,Duragesic TTS Patches…..
You hip to those? My hookup is 1-(248)333-3735 KEEP IN TOUCH OUR COMBINED
KNOWLEDGE AND RESOURCES ARE OUR SALVATION.peace

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 1:34:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA  ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest  Plant  Medication  for Addictions

Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm

Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP)         8:45 –   9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist)                          9:05 –   9:30
Awolowo Johnson  (sociologist/ Nganga)                    9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi  (NIDA researcher)                      10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert)                    10:30  – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit)            11:10 –  11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker)                      11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro                               12:00 –   1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 –     2:00

$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME

The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.

In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.

(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)

For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035

(Benu Project  & Afrikan Wholistic Network)

or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)

Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:

San Francisco: November 29, 30  (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123

@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.

Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters:  5 to 6 pm
———

Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297

@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424

4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa

——–

Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22)  01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958  projetiboga@no-log.org

@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle  01133140373928

Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM

———

NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003  (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!

For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 11:13:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hey man i go to the clinic on 7  mile  which 1 do you go to but hey i made copys of  a poster that says anyony looking to get of  methadone for good by means of ibogaine please contact me it says  a little more than that but thats the jist. none has responded and everyother day i go in there and tell people about methadone alternatives and i don’t know if we should use the word CURE thats a very  very strong word. hey man i have been planning a trip over to windsor to pick up and sha bla bla over there maybe we could go in on it together i am just looking for people in the  MICHIGAN AREA to possibly converse with on the subject of sharing expenses let me know. Or atleast tell me to blow myself  just so i know .Thank you for reading this this means that you care enough  about yourself  to be looking for help or know this stuff helps. or its another big conspiracy i would not believe it myself if i hadnot had an addiction changing ethnogenic experience maybe 6 years ago then i seen in High T!*{$ a article on ibo. well thaats it 734 429 0659 NICK there now the cops know great fuck shit fuck i hope this is worth it.Thank  you and look DEA all i want is  help i’m not  waNTING TO SELL OR CONSPIRE ANYTHING WITH DRUGS I JUST WANT HELP!
GM40JM98@aol.com wrote:
I have been on the deadly dolophine since 12-12-1979. You are just not a
client at a MET clinic you MUST be there or you are sick…PERIOD. Teh MET
wont even allow you to go back to heroin…. because it blocks your opiate
receptors.
I have received hundrede of chat room tupe info. on ibogaine. I am on my last
hopes,people ect. to find a source of,a underground clinic, caring people od
just some seeds I may that will help me try to ger finally and once for all
free of met.
Sincerelt,James Alan Moser,Pontiac,MI 1-(248)333-3735

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 11:13:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hey man i go to the clinic on 7  mile  which 1 do you go to but hey i made copys of  a poster that says anyony looking to get of  methadone for good by means of ibogaine please contact me it says  a little more than that but thats the jist. none has responded and everyother day i go in there and tell people about methadone alternatives and i don’t know if we should use the word CURE thats a very  very strong word. hey man i have been planning a trip over to windsor to pick up and sha bla bla over there maybe we could go in on it together i am just looking for people in the  MICHIGAN AREA to possibly converse with on the subject of sharing expenses let me know. Or atleast tell me to blow myself  just so i know .Thank you for reading this this means that you care enough  about yourself  to be looking for help or know this stuff helps. or its another big conspiracy i would not believe it myself if i hadnot had an addiction changing ethnogenic experience maybe 6 years ago then i seen in High T!*{$ a article on ibo. well thaats it 734 429 0659 NICK there now the cops know great fuck shit fuck i hope this is worth it.Thank  you and look DEA all i want is  help i’m not  waNTING TO SELL OR CONSPIRE ANYTHING WITH DRUGS I JUST WANT HELP!
GM40JM98@aol.com wrote:
I have been on the deadly dolophine since 12-12-1979. You are just not a
client at a MET clinic you MUST be there or you are sick…PERIOD. Teh MET
wont even allow you to go back to heroin…. because it blocks your opiate
receptors.
I have received hundrede of chat room tupe info. on ibogaine. I am on my last
hopes,people ect. to find a source of,a underground clinic, caring people od
just some seeds I may that will help me try to ger finally and once for all
free of met.
Sincerelt,James Alan Moser,Pontiac,MI 1-(248)333-3735

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Hallucinogens and redemption.
Date: November 14, 2002 at 11:03:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

J Psychoactive Drugs 2002 Jul-Sep;34(3):239-48  Related Articles, Links

Hallucinogens and redemption.
de Rios MD, Grob CS, Baker JR.
Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Human Behavior, University of
Califomia, Irvine, USA.
This article examines drug substitution with regard to hallucinogens
(ayahuasca, ibogaine, peyote and LSD) set within the concept of redemption.
The model examines both religious and secular approaches to the contemporary
use of hallucinogens in drug substitution, both by scientists and in
religious settings worldwide. The redemptive model posits that the proper use
of one psychoactive substance within a spiritual or clinical context helps to
free an individual from the adverse effects of their addiction to another
substance and thus restores them as functioning members of their community or
group. Data is drawn from the U.S., Brazil, Peru, and West Africa. Two
principle mechanisms for this are proposed: the psychological mechanism of
suggestibility is examined in terms of the individual reaching abstinence
goals from addictive substances such as alcohol and opiates.
Neurophysiological and neurochemical mechanisms to understand the efficacy of
such substitution are highlighted from ongoing research on hallucinogens.
Research by two of the authors with the Unaio do Vegetal (UDV) Church in
Brazil is examined in terms of the model.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] PLEASE unsubscribe
Date: November 14, 2002 at 10:19:05 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PLEASE unsubscribe andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Nicholas Labus [mailto:goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 November 2002 20:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂

hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought  i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern  out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much

P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week.  i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)

MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox

.:vector:.

— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
! > desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising sec! tion for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you coul! d easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>

__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

 

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From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?
Date: November 14, 2002 at 10:08:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have been on the deadly dolophine since 12-12-1979. You are just not a
client at a MET clinic you MUST be there or you are sick…PERIOD. Teh MET
wont even allow you to go back to heroin…. because it blocks your opiate
receptors.
I have received hundrede of chat room tupe info. on ibogaine. I am on my last
hopes,people ect. to find a source of,a underground clinic, caring people od
just some seeds I may that will help me try to ger finally and once for all
free of met.
Sincerelt,James Alan Moser,Pontiac,MI 1-(248)333-3735

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] final notice
Date: November 13, 2002 at 8:57:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please forward this email announcement of the New York City, Saturday,
November 16, IBOGA & IBOGAINE FORUM to interested lists and individuals.
Thank you.

This forum brings together a unique combination of activists, traditional
healers, scientists and medical experts with experience in the use of iboga,
the plant used in African religion or ibogaine, its purified pharmaceutical
product in healing practices and in the treatment of addiction.

http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nycforum.html

“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE* & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW

*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addiction

SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm

Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP)———8:45
Elombe Brath (activist/ journalist/ PLC)————–9:05
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga)—————9:30
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher)——————10:00
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert)—————10:30
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit)—————11:10
Rommell Washington (social worker)—————–11:35
Gen Discussion——————————————12:00
Moderator Close——————————————1:30

$10 ADMISSION – ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME

No one will be turned away.

DEMPSEY CENTER AUDITORIUM 127 W. 127th St.

Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue

For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)

http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nycforum.html

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 4:08:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nicholas,

“drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K,
etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh ”

There is no HOME test for ibogaine, it is not tested
for in any standard drug screens – it would have to be
a specific test, that is if you can find a lab who
would do it, drug dogs wouldn’t have a clue what it
is, neither would pretty much anyone else.

It is the root bark part of the iboga root that has
most of the ibogaine in it and concentration can vary
quit a bit, if of course that is iboga root you are
talking about (I don’t know what they look like in
person…). It takes roughly an ounce of quality root
bark to equal 1 gm of ibogaine, or a “dose” (for lack
of better way to guestimate). I couldn’t tell you a
fair price, depends on what it is worth to you. Indra
for instance (check their site for prices) would be
about 5 gm (an anti-addictive dose) to (roughly) an
ounce of quality root bark – again in my guestimation.
Of course it could take 3 ounces or that particular
root bark to do the same thing (if it is not quality),
or it could be “beat”/worthless stuff. You could for
instance purchase ibogaine HCL for about $125 a gm,
but have to order it in quantity, send money, have it
shipped and hope it doesn’t get lost/detoured and
unless you lived in a country where it was legal you
would have travel out of the country to get it… so
that adds to the cost…

Iboga/ibogaine itself is not that expensive, getting
your body to it or it to your body can be.

Check ethnogardens web site or Indra

Also keep in mind that most people never get enough
ibogaine and wind up having to get more…

Brett

— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:

hi i was wondering if there was any test for
checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or
anything a person could do without a labratory i
heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K,
etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought  i know
the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you
think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a
wild thought ? but the first question is important.
i know this person on the internet who may have just
acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole
things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real
thick and if they tern  out to be real what is a
fair honest price for them from a friend to a
friend! i just would like to help a friend out that
doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so
there it is please take the first question seriously
and if someone does reply could someone else please
either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions!
thank you very much

P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week.
i have been typing while not being myself. and i
said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes
i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just
nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High
Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)

MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox

.:vector:.

— Curtis Hersch wrote:

Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve
done ibogaine I
can sign onto the sacrament listing?

Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a
ibogaine religion
🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and
wandered in the
desert. That little tv station called Mindvox
doesn’t hurt either
I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need
to post the
guidelines for this some time and let us mere
mortals know how we
can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂
🙂

Without bitching and moaning like many so like to
do, hey what is
up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow
up it looks to
be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂
All of you really
ought to set up sections for alternative docs who
are not
treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for
the bay area. Let
people who help others advertise, you know your
hit rate on a site
that is closed and has nothing but your writing
and Drew’s art and
some strange odds and ends, is higher than
Cannabis Culture and
Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought
to at least open
up a basic advertising section for people who are
likely to be
interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs,
technology.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com
19,528

http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com
21,466

On your traffic graph you have days when you spike
10,000. If you
open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about
a week bro.
Mindvox resurrected 🙂

Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion
too. You’ve got
ibogaine.net at 161,246
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org

I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing
this advice fly
by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it
works, put it online
and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be
millionaries in
a week, but you could easily make more then enough
money to at
least stop losing thousands every month hosting
Mindvox, break
even and go eat out or something 😉

I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching
and I have
never posted these dumb lists of statistics like
others like to
do. But I do have eyes and you have major major
interest here bro.
Even if you don’t want to spend your time running
a business
again, all of you could spend a very small amount
of time to just
set up a few basic things and start generating
flow. It has got to
get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down
the drain to
run Mindvox.

Peace out,
Curtis

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

———————————
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from
Greatest Hits CD

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: “Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.” <ethnogarden@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 3:49:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://ethnobotany.yage.net/ibogex.html
Here is an extraction and purification link

Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Nicholas Labus
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂

hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh and is there any other hallucinogenic roots that resemble ibogaine roots. Cuz friend said for fact he got mind hallucinatios and felt nauseios from just a little bit of the bark from 3 other roots i don’t know what to make of it he is not lying
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought  i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern  out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much

P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week.  i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)

MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox

.:vector:.

— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

 

Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 3:22:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh and is there any other hallucinogenic roots that resemble ibogaine roots. Cuz friend said for fact he got mind hallucinatios and felt nauseios from just a little bit of the bark from 3 other roots i don’t know what to make of it he is not lying
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought  i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern  out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much

P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week.  i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)

MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox

.:vector:.

— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

 

Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 3:18:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought  i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern  out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much

P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week.  i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)

MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox

.:vector:.

— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

 

Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 2:37:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)

MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox

.:vector:.

— Curtis  Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
can sign onto the sacrament listing?

Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂

Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466

On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
Mindvox resurrected 🙂

Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
ibogaine.net at 161,246
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org

I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
even and go eat out or something 😉

I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
run Mindvox.

Peace out,
Curtis

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 1:26:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I can sign onto the sacrament listing?

Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂

Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466

On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro. Mindvox resurrected 🙂

Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got ibogaine.net at 161,246
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org

I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break even and go eat out or something 😉

I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro. Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to run Mindvox.

Peace out,
Curtis

At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..

hattie
> Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of possible
> names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
> Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
> Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
> “sacrament.”
>
> To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High Priest —
> ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
> reverse.
>
> Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
> whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
> of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
> List.
>
> To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
> content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
>
> sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
>
> It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
> that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this listname
> anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
>
> This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest and
> Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
> Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
> of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
>
> ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
> struggle.  <Down, RelaX>
>
> “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________________
Give your Company an email address like
ravi @ ravi-exports.com.  Sign up for Rediffmail Pro today!
Know more. http://www.rediffmailpro.com/signup/

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 12, 2002 at 9:07:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

my point being is I don’t charge anything. If you comply with our health
info request, you could, theoretically, motorcycle here.

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond

Marc,

I am in the mid-atlantic area in the US and I was planning on driving the
Triumph again. I just got it running. It is a hard-core chopper that I
have
owned for 10 years. It is my last decent posession since my problem sucked
up all of my money and stuff.

I will be selling it soon to finance a trip to get ibo. Once I’m clean,
I’ll
get another bike.

Steve

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800

Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet

They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them
about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products
they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.

I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a
plane
ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
resembling a heart.

Steve Diamond

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000

re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple
of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed
me
the
following:

Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months
ago

it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was
harvested
right
before shipment.

Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the
saleslist
and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources –
we
prefer to trade with locals.

Regards
Claus

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 12, 2002 at 9:06:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Can you bike here then?

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond

Marc,

I am in the mid-atlantic area in the US and I was planning on driving the
Triumph again. I just got it running. It is a hard-core chopper that I
have
owned for 10 years. It is my last decent posession since my problem sucked
up all of my money and stuff.

I will be selling it soon to finance a trip to get ibo. Once I’m clean,
I’ll
get another bike.

Steve

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800

Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet

They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them
about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products
they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.

I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a
plane
ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
resembling a heart.

Steve Diamond

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000

re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple
of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed
me
the
following:

Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months
ago

it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was
harvested
right
before shipment.

Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the
saleslist
and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources –
we
prefer to trade with locals.

Regards
Claus

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:19:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marc,

I am in the mid-atlantic area in the US and I was planning on driving the Triumph again. I just got it running. It is a hard-core chopper that I have owned for 10 years. It is my last decent posession since my problem sucked up all of my money and stuff.

I will be selling it soon to finance a trip to get ibo. Once I’m clean, I’ll get another bike.

Steve

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800

Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet

> They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
> old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about
> Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they
> should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
> desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.
>
> I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a plane
> ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
> resembling a heart.
>
> Steve Diamond
>
>
>
>
> >From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> >Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
> >Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000
> >
> >re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple of
> >complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed me
the
> >following:
> >
> >Hi Nick,
> >We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months ago –
> >it
> >was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
> >I
> >have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was harvested
> >right
> >before shipment.
> >
> >Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
> >etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
> >Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the saleslist
and
> >have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources – we
> >prefer to trade with locals.
> >
> >
> >Regards
> >Claus
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:34:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know much about Acolytes… to be honest, I don’t know what they are <g>

Basically, one needst to ingest The Wafer of Sacrament (they are bitter!!!), and he/she gets all neccessary knowledge to become a priest. And, of course, one has to be nice to me, otherwise I won’t give him/her soooo desired Title!

;-)))

Marko

At 19:18 12.11.2002, you wrote:
So what does that make those who have not yet,but may well, who are in a
course of fervent religious study? Are they then Acolytes?

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

>>> Iboga@guest.arnes.si 11/12/02 12:22PM >>>
Dear Hattie,

no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder
and
TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet
;-))

Love,

Marko

At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
>on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
>
>
>Does that make me a high priestess!!!
>Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a
pre-requisite
>of having consumed the sacrament.
>Just wondering…..
>
>hattie
> > Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of
possible
> > names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
> > Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting
up Any
> > Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
> > “sacrament.”
> >
> > To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> > recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> > Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High
Priest —
> > ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
> > reverse.
> >
> > Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine
— for
> > whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?”
/ “All
> > of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
> > List.
> >
> > To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
> > content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
> >
> > sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
> >
> > It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond to
> > that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this
listname
> > anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
> >
> > This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest
and
> > Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being
a
> > Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the
Fires
> > of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
> >
> > ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
> > struggle.  <Down, RelaX>
> >
> > “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:29:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 19:17 12.11.2002, you wrote:
Marko,

I, too, would like to be ordained.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

Hey, hey, hey!!! So many people want to join “my” religion, that’s GREAT!!

I suggest this: when the Temple will be online, then I’ll start to deal with this, OK?

In the meantime, here’s something for all of you, those who want to join and those who don’t.

Marko
////////////////////
1) After the treatment, my body seemed more fragile and vulnerable than
usual. I’ve been more intensely aware of the traps and crystalizations of the
discursive mind, how one leaks energy constantly. This realization has made
me sensitive to socialized habits that feed negativity and threaten the
awareness that ‘everything is a dream’, waking and sleeping. Old karma has
manifested, old habits and addictions seem to be screaming for attention. And
yet I’m half way into another kind of intention that leaves me in a kind of
bardo stage of ‘becoming’. It isn’t particularly painful, as I recognize that
state, but its disorienting, as if a few wires have been pulled and placed
into sockets that I’m not particularly acquainted with.

2) I’ve felt the need to go on a semi-retreat, which is where I am now, in a
cabin overlooking the sea in Nova Scotia. My work has been slow (writing a
book) as the usual conceptual nature of this process seems unavailable, as if
I’m waiting for a further level of consciousness to proceed. So I wait. I
look at the sky. I drift. I sleep twelve hours a night and sometimes take
naps. It’s as if I’m in hibernation. Waiting to ‘be” rather than constantly
‘do’.

3) It would seem very beneficial if there was follow-up work to be done after
this extraordinary session: grounding work, certain exercises or meditations
that would allow one to contain and work with the released energy, methods of
working with the emotional, spiritual and physical implications. All the
subsequent addictions that are released in such a treatment create a body of
fear and apprehension that seek to protect one from taking a further step
into the realm or domain of freedom. How does one work with the fear of
expansion, the fear of surrender, the fear of, ultimately, death? It’s step
by step, of course, but without being too formal and certainly not
instituional, it would seem important to have a way to continue; a process
that would involve assimilation and faith. A proscribed ritual to summon
grace and sanctify the circle.

4) Iboga was unlike anything I’ve ever taken before, which includes San
Pedro, Peyote, Ayaquasca, LSD, mushrooms etc.. It contains a very big
energizing motor, a relentless surge that seems to mirror the maniacal
desperation of the cognitive mind. The result was a kind of initiation into a
pre-cognitive state, a brief window into a sense of unity that preceedes the
imprint of the ego, that shock that locks one into a cognitive pattern, into
believing thoughts are real, separate from the essence of mind. The ripples
of this insight continue. In a Buddhist sense, it afforded me a lucid
appreciation of suffering, of where suffering comes from, how one imparts it
and becomes inevitably addictive to it. The whole seductive dance of
clinging, thinking, judging etc.. all the strategies of separation and
dissonance.

5) The medicinal value seems to be one of releasing the nodules and infinite
endless separations of one’s energy flow that can, if not released, become
the cause of sickness and degeneration. When the mind is exhausted or even
for a moment relaxed, then healing can occur. Iboga stimulates this process
of circulation. It seems to unhinge the grip of cogntion so that there are
more gaps between words, more essential moments of silence, a deeper
continuity away from those agreements that cause suffering.. it points the
way towards the beginings of a field of grace, of the possibly of nourishment
which can only occur when the internal dialogue is extinguished or at least,
stilled. It seems very masculine, in a way, in its relentless process, but
the result is quite feminine in the subsequent exhaustion of thought. The
plant asks, even demands, that one surrender. I found the entire process
extremely powerful and radical in ways that I am only now begining to
appreciate.

6) I look forward to continuing this work which seems to call for nothing
less than a revolution of the psyche. It seems to have the power to push one
towards the ‘drop edge of yonder’, ready or not, without a parachute. Love
and grace are its wings, its eyes are intention, it’s heart the womb.So
everything has the possibilty of becoming a vision or a dream, even chopping
wood and carrying water. Because it is so powerful minimal teachings and
explanations would seem neccessary, or at least practical suggestions: a way
of relaxing the inevitable addictions of control, the waves of fear that
overcome one when approaching ‘that long passage that leads beyond the
beyond”

From: jon ludlam <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Test
Date: November 12, 2002 at 4:39:48 PM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It worked fine.
Thanks for everything you folks are great.
Seraphina

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 1:18:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So what does that make those who have not yet,but may well, who are in a
course of fervent religious study? Are they then Acolytes?

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

Iboga@guest.arnes.si 11/12/02 12:22PM >>>
Dear Hattie,

no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder
and
TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet
;-))

Love,

Marko

At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a
pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..

hattie
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting
up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the
Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”

Patrick

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 1:17:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko,

I, too, would like to be ordained.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:22:27 +0100

Dear Hattie,

no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder and TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet ;-))

Love,

Marko

At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..

hattie
> Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of possible
> names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
> Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
> Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
> “sacrament.”
>
> To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High Priest —
> ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
> reverse.
>
> Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
> whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
> of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
> List.
>
> To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
> content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
>
> sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
>
> It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
> that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this listname
> anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
>
> This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest and
> Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
> Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
> of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
>
> ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
> struggle.  <Down, RelaX>
>
> “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 12:22:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Hattie,

no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder and TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet ;-))

Love,

Marko

At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..

hattie
> Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of possible
> names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
> Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
> Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
> “sacrament.”
>
> To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High Priest —
> ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
> reverse.
>
> Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
> whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
> of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
> List.
>
> To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
> content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
>
> sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
>
> It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
> that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this listname
> anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
>
> This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest and
> Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
> Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
> of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
>
> ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
> struggle.  <Down, RelaX>
>
> “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 8:07:18 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OTOH, does the world need another Church?!
Just asking.. seriously, someone please inform andria-ignoramus why this new
list is being set up; I may have missed something

I certainly feel funny about the idea of preaching anything, including
Ibogaine..

Somebody help/explain!

andria

—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 12 November 2002 11:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List

on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..

hattie
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”

Patrick

NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any
attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in
respect of viruses that may have been transmitted

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:52:09 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanx for saying that Preston.

Everyone,
Maybe I’m weird; (correction, i am!)

BUT i tend to think that 1 line of defence is attack; what Hal did.
it’s easy for us to feel hurt and react; I do it all the funking time, esp. if stressed out, but I didn’t get the impression that Hal could really put this list out of bizz, which I think, is the ONLY bit of his e that should really concern any of us, yeh?

andria
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 09 November 2002 00:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

uh, actually, I was sorta kinda interested.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Vector Vector
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

That was really long and boring, resaid things that have been said 500
times about the CDA and Mindvox.

Patrick’s reply was better ‘please feel free to suck my dick’

This puts me to sleep and the CDA has been dead for at least 5 years.
Who cares.

.:vector:.

— ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small
> sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want
> to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions
> indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason
> they want to.
>
> If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening
> if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get
> a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are
> their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network
> which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in
> Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private
> network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in
> the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s
> over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States
> they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down
> since the A record isn’t in the US.
>
> Good luck.
>
> The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people
> like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in
> mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember
> right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA
> will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I
> can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox
> moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and
> was declared unconstitutional and struck down.
>
> That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would
> pass.
>
> The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing
> people who are not forcing you to view their content and think
> everyone should be accountable to you?
>
> On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
> wrote:
> >This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
> >that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
> nonsense
> >being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
> > k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
> >crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
>
> >from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
>
> >your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
> understand
> >if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
> psychedelic
> >cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
> >drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
> >are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
> >he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
> >Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
> >This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
> >denial.
> >
> >Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
> >the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
> contact
> >your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
>

__________________________________________________
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http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in respect of viruses that may have been transmitted

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:30:48 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hal

Perhaps U should know that some people on this list are not using anything,
and try to remember the spiritual principles, which NA tries to teach us:
Live and Let Live

Whatja think?

Take care;

Andria

—–Original Message—–
From: Hal Lindey [mailto:hlindsey1@lycos.com]
Sent: 08 November 2002 06:08
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d
hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all
banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming
addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should
be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of
you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics
like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have
done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This
is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
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Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus

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intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:23:37 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Can I just remind US that people got to NA cos they’re generally quite potty
in the 1st place, and our interpretation of things is, I think, largely what
causes the probs; there is no law that says we ought to believe ANY of what
is said in those rooms, or indeed stay if it’s useless to us: presumably the
reason why most on this list are ex-attenders, no?

Sadly people do tend to leave after an individual, or group has offended
them, and carry stuff (sometimes for years.)n Fortunately my memory don’t
work that long!

When I read Americans resent at NA, I recall the 20-or-so meetings i went to
over there..most of them were fine; i felt supported and loved for a little
while. (In Boston 1 time, the meeting closed with the Lords Prayer, which is
breaking traditions no? Weird!?)

Anyway, Preston’s attitude was right.
Whoever the angry-at-us person prolly just needs to know that his choice AS
WELL AS ours are ok. ;we’re alive and most of us thriving, one way or
t’other.

If the rain would just let up 4 five hrs in London, I’d thrive EVEN MORE!

andria

—–Original Message—–
From: Jon Freedlander [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
Sent: 08 November 2002 06:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:

It is not AA/12 steps that bother me so much as the
interpretation/people that I have a problem with in
the “rooms”, with their boogy-man disease is going to
get you if you don’t do these things or do those
things.  Yeah, yeah, take what you need… right, it
is just so depressing for me – BUT finally I can go to
meetings and not want to use when I come out. That is
NOT a joke and NOT funny and is the reason I stopped
going.

You’re definately not alone in that experience. Maybe it just goes to
prove that i’m a bastard, but after sitting through an NA meeting, i felt
so enraged at the group think, at the destruction of personality, the best
thing to do to get back at them (in my twisted junky mind) was to go out and
use, with a vengence

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”

NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally
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intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any
attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in
respect of viruses that may have been transmitted

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:54:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>The only buprenorphine drug diversion reported at the meeting was
in the prison system. <

Someone in Tompkins Square Park (not prison) gave me one of these a couple years back now, when I was kicking methadone and very, very, very sick. It felt like I’d done 2 or 3 bags of dope, and was very, very fucked up after letting just one of these pills, (no idea what the measurement of the dose was) disolve in my mouth. But it sure helped with the sick.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: Ibogaine
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:14 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>

Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 09:38:08 +1100
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!

Dear Colleagues,

The NSW Health Department’s Buprenorphine Forum in Kings
Cross on Wednesday 16th October was attended by about 40
professionals.  It was an excellent ‘talk-fest’ with a high degree of
agreement on the fundamental issues of a balanced and safe
introduction of buprenorphine now that the first two years have
passed almost without incident.  Delegates from general practice,
community pharmacy, specialist clinics, patient representatives,
nursing, prison medical and administration spoke of uniformly
positive experience with sub-lingual buprenorphine tablets for
addiction treatment.  Approximately 10% of around 15,000
approved maintenance patients in the state are currently prescribed
sublingual buprenorphine, the remainder being on methadone.

Dr Jennifer Gray PhD of NSW Health spoke on the introduction
process over the past 3 years.  She said that we should all be proud
of the smooth implementation of what is basically the first new
effective heroin addiction treatment in 30 years.  Dr Gray
mentioned the French model which allows unsupervised pharmacy
dispensing of buprenorphine.

Dr James Bell, medical adviser to the Drug Programs Bureau also
alluded to the possible benefits of an unsupervised supply of
buprenorphine as sometimes used in France, despite little
systematic research.  He also said that the current British system
can still lead to ‘wheel-barrows full’ of methadone to be dispensed
without supervision which must be avoided in our system.  He
rightly referred to the serious ‘indignities’ of being on closely
supervised agonist treatments and the possible benefits of wider
access to take-away doses to reduce the need for clinic visits in
future.  He also said that he strongly supported looking into the use
of a mixed drug containing naloxone which has been designed to
reduce diversion of the drug (naloxone is only 10% absorbed sub-
lingually but would cause immediate withdrawals if injected by a
person with a current opioid habit).

The only buprenorphine drug diversion reported at the meeting was
in the prison system.  In a coffee break I went with a number of
other delegates to the close-by Medically Supervised Injecting
Centre.  Apparently no buprenorphine has been reported by
attendees, all of whom are asked what drug they intend to inject.
The Kings Cross Police also told me that they have not had a
problem with buprenorphine on the street.

One delegate made the important point that it was not appropriate
to implement buprenorphine withdrawal treatment unless there
were maintenance ‘places’ available since short term reductions had
a low success rate, as with methadone.

There was virtually unanimous support for the gradual easing of
take-away restrictions for those patients who currently attend daily.
The proportion of patients who could move to second daily was
not as high as the 85% which had been shown in some research
trials.  Figures from 33% to 75% were reported from different
treatment services.  It was reported that for new patients and for
those on reduction regimens daily dosing was usually required.
Even for those on second daily dosing, it was suggested that one or
two doses each month may allow added flexibility such as for
public holidays, family commitments and/or emergencies, always
assuming that such subjects are stable and suitable clinically for
such doing privileges.  It was considered by most that even though
buprenorphine appeared to be fundamentally a safer drug than
methadone it was still premature to discuss making it more freely
available as dispensed doses at this time.

A number of negative aspects were mentioned.  There is more
paper-work as there are three entries in the drug register for the
three strengths of tablet.  The close similarity of the 0.4mg and 2mg
tablets and their packaging was noted by two delegates.  While
buprenorphine can be more time consuming, it could also save
time.  Some methadone patients have chronic nausea and vomiting
and a proportion of these may be happier with the newer drug.
There were complaints about the presentation and a request for
bulk supplies without the packaging.  But we were told by the
Reckitts representative that ‘bubble packs’ of 7 tablets were
probably here to stay, at least for now.  Tablets are individually
packed in a nitrogen atmosphere to preserve shelf life, thus loose
tablets were not acceptable.

There was much discussion about dosing practices.  It was
suggested by one delegate who had run extensive buprenorphine
trials that while we may need to move away >from a number of long-
held notions such as the ‘3-day rule’ and slow, careful inductions
based on experience with methadone.  Several delegates felt that
this drug may be better used by giving quite high initial doses and
cutting down later, which is quite the opposite of what we are
taught with methadone (although it IS a suggested alternative
protocol in some guidelines).  Being a safer drug in ‘single drug’
overdose, the gradual induction and dose increases to therapeutic
should probably be abandoned in favour of relatively rapid steps.
Some delegates suggested as high at 10-20mg daily if tolerated.  In
spite of its intrinsic safety, we were also reminded that
buprenorphine has been associated with numerous deaths in France,
nearly all when used with alcohol and/or other depressants.
However, overall overdose death rates have dropped markedly in
that country.

Australasian doctors, pharmacists and other health case workers
now have a responsibility to move with the various State and
Territory authorities, Colleges and colleagues to ‘normalise’ the use
of buprenorphine in medical practice to maximise its benefits.  This
will assist opioid dependent patients as well as improve safety and
amenity for the wider community.  All clinics offering treatment for
addiction should make this drug available for appropriate cases.

The forum proceedings were organised by Michelle Tjhin and
David McGrath.  It was agreed that the newly formed Chapter of
Addiction Medicine should play a major role at the next such
meeting and that both the drug company and Drug Programs
Bureau may have available funds for innovative education and
research projects on addiction treatments.

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:53:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..

hattie
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”

Patrick

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!
Date: November 12, 2002 at 3:14:02 AM EST
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>

Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 09:38:08 +1100
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!

Dear Colleagues,

The NSW Health Department’s Buprenorphine Forum in Kings
Cross on Wednesday 16th October was attended by about 40
professionals.  It was an excellent ‘talk-fest’ with a high degree of
agreement on the fundamental issues of a balanced and safe
introduction of buprenorphine now that the first two years have
passed almost without incident.  Delegates from general practice,
community pharmacy, specialist clinics, patient representatives,
nursing, prison medical and administration spoke of uniformly
positive experience with sub-lingual buprenorphine tablets for
addiction treatment.  Approximately 10% of around 15,000
approved maintenance patients in the state are currently prescribed
sublingual buprenorphine, the remainder being on methadone.

Dr Jennifer Gray PhD of NSW Health spoke on the introduction
process over the past 3 years.  She said that we should all be proud
of the smooth implementation of what is basically the first new
effective heroin addiction treatment in 30 years.  Dr Gray
mentioned the French model which allows unsupervised pharmacy
dispensing of buprenorphine.

Dr James Bell, medical adviser to the Drug Programs Bureau also
alluded to the possible benefits of an unsupervised supply of
buprenorphine as sometimes used in France, despite little
systematic research.  He also said that the current British system
can still lead to ‘wheel-barrows full’ of methadone to be dispensed
without supervision which must be avoided in our system.  He
rightly referred to the serious ‘indignities’ of being on closely
supervised agonist treatments and the possible benefits of wider
access to take-away doses to reduce the need for clinic visits in
future.  He also said that he strongly supported looking into the use
of a mixed drug containing naloxone which has been designed to
reduce diversion of the drug (naloxone is only 10% absorbed sub-
lingually but would cause immediate withdrawals if injected by a
person with a current opioid habit).

The only buprenorphine drug diversion reported at the meeting was
in the prison system.  In a coffee break I went with a number of
other delegates to the close-by Medically Supervised Injecting
Centre.  Apparently no buprenorphine has been reported by
attendees, all of whom are asked what drug they intend to inject.
The Kings Cross Police also told me that they have not had a
problem with buprenorphine on the street.

One delegate made the important point that it was not appropriate
to implement buprenorphine withdrawal treatment unless there
were maintenance ‘places’ available since short term reductions had
a low success rate, as with methadone.

There was virtually unanimous support for the gradual easing of
take-away restrictions for those patients who currently attend daily.
The proportion of patients who could move to second daily was
not as high as the 85% which had been shown in some research
trials.  Figures from 33% to 75% were reported from different
treatment services.  It was reported that for new patients and for
those on reduction regimens daily dosing was usually required.
Even for those on second daily dosing, it was suggested that one or
two doses each month may allow added flexibility such as for
public holidays, family commitments and/or emergencies, always
assuming that such subjects are stable and suitable clinically for
such doing privileges.  It was considered by most that even though
buprenorphine appeared to be fundamentally a safer drug than
methadone it was still premature to discuss making it more freely
available as dispensed doses at this time.

A number of negative aspects were mentioned.  There is more
paper-work as there are three entries in the drug register for the
three strengths of tablet.  The close similarity of the 0.4mg and 2mg
tablets and their packaging was noted by two delegates.  While
buprenorphine can be more time consuming, it could also save
time.  Some methadone patients have chronic nausea and vomiting
and a proportion of these may be happier with the newer drug.
There were complaints about the presentation and a request for
bulk supplies without the packaging.  But we were told by the
Reckitts representative that ‘bubble packs’ of 7 tablets were
probably here to stay, at least for now.  Tablets are individually
packed in a nitrogen atmosphere to preserve shelf life, thus loose
tablets were not acceptable.

There was much discussion about dosing practices.  It was
suggested by one delegate who had run extensive buprenorphine
trials that while we may need to move away from a number of long-
held notions such as the ‘3-day rule’ and slow, careful inductions
based on experience with methadone.  Several delegates felt that
this drug may be better used by giving quite high initial doses and
cutting down later, which is quite the opposite of what we are
taught with methadone (although it IS a suggested alternative
protocol in some guidelines).  Being a safer drug in ‘single drug’
overdose, the gradual induction and dose increases to therapeutic
should probably be abandoned in favour of relatively rapid steps.
Some delegates suggested as high at 10-20mg daily if tolerated.  In
spite of its intrinsic safety, we were also reminded that
buprenorphine has been associated with numerous deaths in France,
nearly all when used with alcohol and/or other depressants.
However, overall overdose death rates have dropped markedly in
that country.

Australasian doctors, pharmacists and other health case workers
now have a responsibility to move with the various State and
Territory authorities, Colleges and colleagues to ‘normalise’ the use
of buprenorphine in medical practice to maximise its benefits.  This
will assist opioid dependent patients as well as improve safety and
amenity for the wider community.  All clinics offering treatment for
addiction should make this drug available for appropriate cases.

The forum proceedings were organised by Michelle Tjhin and
David McGrath.  It was agreed that the newly formed Chapter of
Addiction Medicine should play a major role at the next such
meeting and that both the drug company and Drug Programs
Bureau may have available funds for innovative education and
research projects on addiction treatments.

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Rapid detox dangers sometimes due to poor practices
Date: November 12, 2002 at 3:11:54 AM EST
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:54:21 +1100
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Rapid detox dangers sometimes due to poor practices.

Dangers involved in rapid opioid detoxification while using opioid
antagonists: dehydration and renal failure. Roozen HG, de Kan R,
van den Brink W, Kerkhof AJFM, Geerlings PJ.  Addiction (2002)
97:1073-5

Dear Colleagues,

This single case history describes a patient who lost excess fluid (15
litres seems almost unbelievable) following a rapid detox
procedure, needing rehydration treatment in hospital.  The
‘Addiction’ journal depart from its usual policy of not publishing
individual case reports, as Editor Edwards has stated, due to the
limited scientific value of one-off cases.  Regarding naltrexone
assisted detoxification, this story seems to indicate little more than
poor quality treatment can lead to serious complications which is
no surpise.

The Dutch authors write briefly about this complex field – hardly
justifying the rather grandiose title used by the journal.  Though
they contend that octreotide is a ‘new development’ it was first used
in 1995 (Dr C. Brewer, London).  It is now considered routine by
most in the rapid detox field to avoid just this type of serious
complication (see Bell et al. 1999).

These authors neglect to say how many such procedures were
performed, nor whether it was a specialist agency doing them.
Thus the reader cannot judge the relative dangers of the treatment
as one might hope from the title.

There is an interesting description of ambulatory rapid detox from
Spain in Addiction’s sister publication ‘Addiction Biology’.  See my
separate posting following and citation below.

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

Bell J, Young MR, Masterman SC, Morris A, Mattick RP, Bammer
G. A pilot study of naltrexone-accelerated detoxification in opioid
dependence. Med Journ Aust (1999) 171: 26-30

Roozen HG, de Kan R, van den Brink W, Kerkhof AJFM,
Geerlings PJ.  Dangers involved in rapid opioid detoxification while
using opioid antagonists: dehydration and renal failure. Addiction
(2002) 97:1073-5

Carreno JE, Bobes J, Brewer C, Alvarez CE, San Naciso GI,
Bascaran, Sanchez del Rio J. 24-hour opiate detoxification and
antagonist induction at home – the ‘Asturian method’: a report on
1368 procedures. Addiction Biology (2002) 7:243-250

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Bright Light <thehealinglight@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Test
Date: November 11, 2002 at 9:35:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Testing to see if my confirm subscribe worked. Sorry
to interrupt.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 10, 2002 at 8:15:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Vector Vector wrote:

— Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)

wait; there’s a picture of a naked chick on the site, and i missed
it?

something is very wrong here, indeed!

I think Patrick was saying they’ve managed to get rated adult content
and banned everywhere without any porn 🙂

Oh crap. ahah. i read that as “with only one picture of a naked chick”
instead of “without…”

must be what i get for not having smoked any pot in a few weeks… =)

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.net |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Judge on leave for smoking joint at Stones Concert
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:58:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Vector Vector wrote:

“District Judge Thomas Gilbert has taken an indefinite voluntary leave
from his duties after he was spotted smoking marijuana at a Rolling
Stones concert at Ford Field in Detroit.” Why is this a crime, much
less a reason to suspend employment?

crikey…all that for two drags?!

i’d like to see every judge suspended who had two sips of scotch….

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.net |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:34:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)

wait; there’s a picture of a naked chick on the site, and i missed
it?

something is very wrong here, indeed!

I think Patrick was saying they’ve managed to get rated adult content
and banned everywhere without any porn 🙂

Drew has some nice drawings.

http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=Sacred/Gallery.html

When will the WackyCrackHeads score ibogaine be finished? Mr. High
Priest 🙂

Here’s a half naked chick, not sure it counts since it’s in drew’s home
directory and some site he’s working on.

http://www.mindvox.com/~dross/re.jpg

This one is cute too 🙂

http://www.mindvox.com/~digital/

.:vector:.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:26:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:

On [Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 07:07:47PM -1100], [Hal Lindey] wrote:

| This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
| I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being
| read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites
| have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and
| melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to
| becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it
| and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some
| joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for
| addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
| addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the
| truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his
| addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
| have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get
| help until you accept your denial.

Uhm, whut somebody said is correct.  We are blocked by every censorware
site on the planet, and have taken no particular action to get around
this.

All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)

wait; there’s a picture of a naked chick on the site, and i missed it?

something is very wrong here, indeed!

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.net |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:10:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wanted to echo this sentiment. I don’t type fast and don’t talk that much here but from every drug list I have ever read, this one has more hope and good energy on it then any of the others. You’re all a bit touched in the head, but I’m starting to think that’s a foundation for any kind of recovery not built on the 12 step slave model. Wouldn’t say one of you here is normal and I wouldn’t say that I know many in more traditional recovery who are anywhere near having a good time.

Keep the faith and thanks to each of you who all do things to make at least a little more light in the darkness.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:45:45
Carla Barnes wrote:
That’s not exactly what I was going to say 😉 But
this is great! When I see all of you on the covers of
magazines along with how many hundred years your
prison sentences will be, I’ll send you some money
into commisary.

LOL and happy all at the same time. “very fucking
cool” Patrick 😉

I have to say, that even with the very negative people
and those who are just plain a$$holes, there is a lot
of hope on here. Thanks for that 🙂 And thanks for
running Mindvox and all the lists 🙂

Carla B

— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER
FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT
SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT
NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX
BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>>    *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly
everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re
not kidding.

I love all of you! This whole place is like a
sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.

I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever
runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a
priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal
ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be
a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t
work.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire
collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into
our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple
will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it
out, I’ve just left

it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a
religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire
situation is
Absolutely,

Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.
I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences
long, so I went
with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have
already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does
it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or
“Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning
any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no
difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can
reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t
published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near
future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve
got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the
requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling,
damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is
all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic
complexes are having a
power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from
God.”

Patrick

Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com

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From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:48:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sEND MINE TO WASTENAW COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF MENTAL CORRECTIONS FOR
WHEN YOU WISH YOU HADN’T SAID THAT HEHE UMADALA IS WATCHING SO PRAY
TO YOU SAVIOUR GOOD OL J.C. OR MOSES OR WHATEVER THE FUCK CUZ HE
WASN’T THERE WHEN OTHERS GOT DISMEMBERED JUST KIDDING I WOULD NEVER
HARM A HAIR ON YOUR BODY

A ORgan is different though
— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
That’s not exactly what I was going to say 😉 But
this is great! When I see all of you on the covers of
magazines along with how many hundred years your
prison sentences will be, I’ll send you some money
into commisary.

LOL and happy all at the same time. “very fucking
cool” Patrick 😉

I have to say, that even with the very negative people
and those who are just plain a$$holes, there is a lot
of hope on here. Thanks for that 🙂 And thanks for
running Mindvox and all the lists 🙂

Carla B

— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER
FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT
SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT
NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX
BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>>    *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly
everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re
not kidding.

I love all of you! This whole place is like a
sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.

I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever
runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a
priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal
ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be
a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t
work.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire
collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into
our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple
will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it
out, I’ve just left

it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a
religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire
situation is
Absolutely,

Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.
I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences
long, so I went
with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have
already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does
it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or
“Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning
any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no
difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can
reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t
published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near
future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve
got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the
requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling,
damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is
all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic
complexes are having a
power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from
God.”

Patrick

Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:45:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s not exactly what I was going to say 😉 But
this is great! When I see all of you on the covers of
magazines along with how many hundred years your
prison sentences will be, I’ll send you some money
into commisary.

LOL and happy all at the same time. “very fucking
cool” Patrick 😉

I have to say, that even with the very negative people
and those who are just plain a$$holes, there is a lot
of hope on here. Thanks for that 🙂 And thanks for
running Mindvox and all the lists 🙂

Carla B

— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER
FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT
SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT
NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX
BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>>    *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly
everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re
not kidding.

I love all of you! This whole place is like a
sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.

I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever
runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a
priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal
ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be
a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t
work.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire
collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into
our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple
will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it
out, I’ve just left

it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a
religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire
situation is
Absolutely,

Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.
I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences
long, so I went
with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have
already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does
it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or
“Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning
any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no
difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can
reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t
published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near
future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve
got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the
requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling,
damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is
all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic
complexes are having a
power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from
God.”

Patrick

Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com

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From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:41:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>>    *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re not kidding.

I love all of you! This whole place is like a sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.

I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t work.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left

it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is
Absolutely,

Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”

Patrick

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:36:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:

You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re not kidding.

I love all of you! This whole place is like a sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.

I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t work.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left

it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is
Absolutely,

Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”

Patrick

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:23:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly everybody on this list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re not kidding.

I love all of you! This whole place is like a sanctuary for people who are really and truly crazy.

I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever runs this church of ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a priest in a church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal ground to be in possession of your sacrament when it happens to be a schedule I substance in the US? You have to know that can’t work.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting
up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,

Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”

Patrick

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] I’m reading my mail
Date: November 10, 2002 at 5:54:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Really, I am, I promise.  Sometime between RIGHT NOW and tomorrow, if I
haven’t replied to you since forever, I will do so.  It may not be a
really long response, but hey, I’ll read whatcha said, assimilate it,
reply to it.  I’m trying to desplatter my mail spool, I’m doing the very
best I can here without 5 secretaries.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 5:23:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Okay, it’s now online.  I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
Minute Now.  Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
“sacrament.”

To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia.  The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.  I’m just a High Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
reverse.

Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
whatever reason(s) they had.  It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.

To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:

sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
that message, and you’re on the list.  I haven’t published this listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.

This is so fully fucking excellent.  So now I’ve got High Priest and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
of Hell!  Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.

‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
struggle.  <Down, RelaX>

“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”

Patrick

From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Zero Point Energy and the PKD Spectrum
Date: November 10, 2002 at 1:55:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/zpe.htm

http://www.ldolphin.org/zpe.html

http://www.dnai.com/~zap/

So What is it ?

Zero Point Energy, sometimes called Zero Point Fluctuations (ZPF) or even Quantum Vacuum Fluctuation Energy, with or without the optional quantum, is caused by the continual popping into existence of virtual particles. These particles vanish almost as soon as they’ve popped into existence.The particles, which arise as matter-antimatter twins, can interact but must, disappear within an interval set by Planck’s constant. They are a result of random electromagnetic oscillations, they are whats left within a vacuum once you’ve extracted all the energy.

One way to explain this apparent contradiction is Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle, this implies that it is impossible to have an absolutely zero energy condition. The same condition holds for light waves in space. For all wavelengths of light, there is a non-zero amount of that light. Adding up the energy for all those different wavelenghts, the amount of energy in a given space is enormous. Even though this is a difficult concept for traditional phyicists to come to terms with, the idea that all this vacuum energy exists is becoming more widley accepted, and the quantum physicists have come in from the cold.

So is there any evidence of all this free energy actually exists. Well there have been a number of experimental results that would suggest/show (depends on whether your a traditional physicist or not) that such energy actually exists:

The Casimir Effect – The most straight-forward evidence for vacuum energy

Van der Waal Forces
The Lamb-Retherford Shift – Refers to a slight frequency alteration in the light emitted by an excited atom

Even for those of you who have read ‘A Brief History of Time’, by Prof. Stephen Hawkins – Hawkins Radiation, should it exist relies on the creation of virtual particles in matter/anti-matter pairs. One particle spirals into the Hole, the other escapes, causing the theoretical effect.
With such large amounts of energy bouncing around, why is it so hard to notice?

Imagine, for example, if you lived on a large plateau, so large that you didn’t know you were 1000 ft up. From your point of view, your ground is at zero height. As long as your not near the edge of your 1000 ft plateau, you won’t fall off, and you will never know that your zero is really 1000. It’s kind of the same way with this vacuum energy. It is essentially our zero reference point.

The energy of the vacuum is a puzzle in theories of quantum gravity since it should act gravitationally and produce a large cosmological constant that would cause space-time to curl up. The solution to the inconsistency is expected to be found in a theory of quantum gravity. There has been some interesting work, done in this field, by Haisch, Rueda, and Puthoff , where vacuum fluctuations are used to explain the effects of both gravity and inertia.
Can we extract any of this energy ?

Puthoff believes that atoms themselves offer a way to extract this energy. This idea hinges on an unproved hypothesis: that zero-point energy is what keeps electrons in an atom orbiting the nucleus. In classical physics, circulating charges like an orbiting electron lose energy through radiation. Putoff believes that zero-point energy keeps the electron zipping around the nucleus (Quantum mechanics as originally formulated simply states that an electron in an atom must have some minimum, ground-state energy.)

Physicists have demonstrated that a small enough cavity can suppress the natural inclination of a trapped, excited particle to give up some energy and drop to a lower energy state [see “Cavity Quantum Electrodynamics,” by Serge Haroche and Jean-Michel Raimond; Scientific American, April 1993]. Basically, the cavity is so small that it can exclude some of the lower-frequency vacuum fluctuations, which the excited atom needs to emit light and drop to a lower energy level. The cavity in effect controls the vacuum fluctuations.

Under the right circumstances, Puthoff reasons, one could effectively manipulate the vacuum so that a new, lower ground state appears. The electron would then drop to the lower ground state–in effect, the atom would become smaller–and give up some energy in the process.

“It implies that hydrogen or deuterium injected into cavities might produce excess energy,” Puthoff says.

This possibility might explain some of the cold-fusion experiments, he notes–in other words, the occasional positive results reported in cold-fusion tests might really be indicators of zero-point energy (rather than, one would assume, wishful thinking). Work in cavity quantum electrodynamics is experimentally challenging in its own right, so it is not clear how practical an energy supply from “shrinking atoms” could be. The Austin institute is testing a device that could be interpreted as manipulating the vacuum. Puthoff, however, declines to provide details, citing a proprietary nondisclosure agreement with its designers.
Can this Energy take us to the Stars ?

Puthoff’s institute receives a little government money but gets most of its funds from contracts with private firms. Others are backed more explicitly by public money. This past August the National Aeronautics and Space Administration sponsored a meeting called the “Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop.” According to participants, zero-point energy became a high priority among those trying to figure out which “breakthroughs” should be pursued.

The propulsion application depends on a speculation put forth in 1994 by Puthoff, Bernhard Haisch of Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory and Alfonso Rueda of California State University at Long Beach. They suggested that inertia–the resistance that objects put up when they are accelerated–stems from the drag effects of moving through the zero-point field. Because the zero-point field can be manipulated in quantum experiments, Puthoff reasons, it should be possible to lessen an object’s inertia and hence, for a rocket, reduce the fuel burden. Puthoff and his colleagues have been trying to prove this inertia-origin hypothesis–a sensitive pendulum should be able to detect a zero-point-energy “wake” left by a moving object–but Puthoff says they have not managed to isolate their system well enough to do so. More conventional scientists decried the channeling of NASA funds to a meeting where real science was lacking. “We hardly talked about the physics” of the proposals, complained Milonni, adding that during one of the breakout sessions “there was a guy talking about astral projection.” Certainly, there should be room for far-out, potentially revolutionary ideas, but not at the expense of solid science. “One has to keep an open mind, but the concepts I’ve seen so far would violate energy conservation,” Milonni concludes. In sizing up zero-point-energy schemes, it may be best to keep in mind the old caveat emptor: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

References

Haisch in Feb 1994 Phys. Rev.A Science vol 263 p 612 Scientific American vol 270, p 30 New Scientist 25 Feb 1995 p 30

“Gravity as a Zero-Point-Fluctuation Force,” H.E. Puthoff, Physical Review A: General Physics. Mar 1 1989, Vol39 No 5

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Judge on leave for smoking joint at Stones Concert
Date: November 10, 2002 at 12:10:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“District Judge Thomas Gilbert has taken an indefinite voluntary leave
from his duties after he was spotted smoking marijuana at a Rolling
Stones concert at Ford Field in Detroit.” Why is this a crime, much
less a reason to suspend employment?

http://www.record-eagle.com/2002/nov/08gilber.htm

November 8, 2002
Judge goes on leave for smoking joint at concert
– Thomas Gilbert admitted to smoking marijuana at a Rolling Stones
concert in Oct.
By PATRICK SULLIVAN
Record-Eagle staff writer

TRAVERSE CITY – District Judge Thomas Gilbert has taken an
indefinite voluntary leave from his duties after he was spotted smoking
marijuana at a Rolling Stones concert at Ford Field in Detroit.

Gilbert’s leave was effective Wednesday after he admitted the
drug use to Chief District Judge Michael Haley and District Judge
Thomas J. Phillips at a meeting earlier in the week.

“He’s full of shame and regret and it’s just a very sad day for
the district court,” Haley said Thursday.

Haley said he interviewed an unidentified Elk Rapids woman last
week who reported she witnessed Gilbert twice take a drag from a
marijuana cigarette as it was passed along a row of people at the
concert.

“She was concerned about it because she saw a judge smoking a
joint, and she was rightfully concerned,” Haley said.

Haley, Phillips and several other court staff members also
happened to be at the Rolling Stones concert on Oct. 12, but they were
seated in separate sections of the stadium and did not witness Gilbert
smoke marijuana.

Gilbert, a former Traverse City commissioner, was not available
for comment, but Haley provided the Record-Eagle with a written
statement from Gilbert.

“I broke the law by twice puffing on a marijuana cigarette during
a rock concert,” Gilbert wrote. “I deeply regret this error in
judgment, for I have let down my fellow judges, the court staff, my
family, and the community.”

Gilbert will be on voluntary leave until at least Nov. 15,
pending a professional assessment for substance abuse. Gilbert can
return to the bench upon the recommendation of a substance abuse
treatment provider, but he will be limited to hearing only civil cases
until further notice, Haley said.

“Based on what I know about Tom personally and professionally, I
cannot believe that this is just a gross judgment error or a character
flaw. I believe that this conduct is the result of substance abuse”
that also involved alcohol, Haley said.

Haley, who in an interview was clearly troubled by the
revelation, said he believes people, including judges, should get a
second chance.

“Judges come in all shapes and sizes, they have all kinds of
personal issues, problems, chemical dependency, and they’re human
beings,” he said. “Judge Phillips and I and the staff would like to see
him back on the bench, we’re behind him, we believe he’s a good man.”
But he also said his concern for Gilbert is secondary to his
concern for the integrity of the court.
“I will do everything I can do to ensure the integrity of the
court, which I believe is very good at this time,” he said.

Haley said he needs time to consider the implications of the
incident for the court. For example, as chief judge, Haley may bar
Gilbert from hearing certain criminal cases, such as marijuana cases.

Meanwhile, Gilbert, who is two years into a four-year term, has
submitted a misconduct disclosure to the Michigan Judicial Tenure
Commission.

According to Haley, after an investigation, the commission’s
options for Gilbert include a private censure, a public censure, a
suspension with or without pay, limiting his judicial duties, such as
precluding him from presiding over criminal cases, or removing him from
the bench.

While Gilbert is on leave, his docket will be handled by Haley
and Phillips. Haley said there should be no significant impact on the
court’s docket. The 86th District Court encompasses Grand Traverse,
Antrim and Leelanau counties.

__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] We rented our Iboga Therapy House
Date: November 8, 2002 at 8:14:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Do those odd Canadian laws allow you to grow iboga there? No, it’s not the
season. Still, I’m trying, with other things. Better to have a few leaves
before the frost hits than nothing at all.

—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:07 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] We rented our Iboga Therapy House

On a fabulous oceanfront, we rented our Iboga Therapy House today.

We take posession next weekend, move in furniture and get down to work.

Inspiring place. Going to make a rudimentary gym, there are gardening
plots
(though its not the season), beautiful hiking trails all around.

Marc Emery

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

This Bill Wilson thing reminded me of this:

Texas Governor James “Pa” Ferguson explained, in 1917, why he had
vetoed
a bill to finance the teaching of foreign languages in the public
school
system: “If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for
the
school children of Texas.”

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] We rented our Iboga Therapy House
Date: November 8, 2002 at 8:07:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On a fabulous oceanfront, we rented our Iboga Therapy House today.

We take posession next weekend, move in furniture and get down to work.

Inspiring place. Going to make a rudimentary gym, there are gardening plots
(though its not the season), beautiful hiking trails all around.

Marc Emery

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

This Bill Wilson thing reminded me of this:

Texas Governor James “Pa” Ferguson explained, in 1917, why he had vetoed
a bill to finance the teaching of foreign languages in the public school
system: “If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for the
school children of Texas.”

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:59:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This Bill Wilson thing reminded me of this:

Texas Governor James “Pa” Ferguson explained, in 1917, why he had vetoed
a bill to finance the teaching of foreign languages in the public school
system: “If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for the
school children of Texas.”

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:48:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

uh, actually, I was sorta kinda interested.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Vector Vector
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

That was really long and boring, resaid things that have been said 500
times about the CDA and Mindvox.

Patrick’s reply was better ‘please feel free to suck my dick’

This puts me to sleep and the CDA has been dead for at least 5 years.
Who cares.

.:vector:.

— ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small
> sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want
> to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions
> indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason
> they want to.
>
> If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening
> if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get
> a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are
> their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network
> which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in
> Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private
> network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in
> the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s
> over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States
> they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down
> since the A record isn’t in the US.
>
> Good luck.
>
> The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people
> like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in
> mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember
> right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA
> will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I
> can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox
> moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and
> was declared unconstitutional and struck down.
>
> That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would
> pass.
>
> The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing
> people who are not forcing you to view their content and think
> everyone should be accountable to you?
>
> On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
> wrote:
> >This site and all you here are like a bad party >from the sixties
> >that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
> nonsense
> >being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
> > k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
> >crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
>
> >from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
>
> >your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
> understand
> >if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
> psychedelic
> >cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
> >drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
> >are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
> >he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
> >Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
> >This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
> >denial.
> >
> >Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
> >the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
> contact
> >your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:13:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think you post things
like this because you want people to respond to you.

Such people are called trolls, named after the folkloric characters
who live under bridges and insult passers-by, trying to get them
to argue with them in order to capture them or something.

That was either a very naive and challenged person or a really
accomplished troll.

Here’s a link to what I imagine is an entertaining story that
likely as not illustrates the roots of the practice:

http://members.fortunecity.com/bookdepository/stories/pratchett/trollbridge/trollbridgetext.html

Bill

From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: quotes: Kurt Cobain’s Journals
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:53:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:30 AM
Subject: [drugwar] quotes: Kurt Cobain’s Journals

“I like to blame my parents generation for coming so close to social
change
then giving up after a few successful efforts by the media & Government
to
deface the movement by using Mansons and other Hippie representatives as
propaganda examples on how they were nothing but unpatriotic, communist,
satanic, inhuman diseases, and in turn the baby boomers become the
ultimate, conforming, Yuppie hypocrites a generation has ever produced.”

“People have been known to shoot booze, mouthwash, etc., drug use is
escapism whether you want to admit it or not…Every junkie I’ve ever met
has fought with it at least 5 years and most end up fighting for about
15-25 years, until finally they have to resort to becoming a slave to
another drug the 12 step program which is in itself another
drug/religion.
If it works for you do it. If your ego is too big start at square one and
go the psychological rehabilitative way. Either way you’ve got at least 5
to 10 years of battle ahead of you.”

Chris
————————–
“In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.”
————————–

<]=———————————————————————–=
[>
[ Moderated by: Preston Peet | http://www.drugwar.com | Andria
E-Mordaunt ]
|          -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=-
|
|             To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
|
[   DrugWar List in Digest Format:
ugwar-digest-subscribe@mindvox.com   ]

<]=———————————————————————–=
[>

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Kurt Cobain diaries
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:49:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bro, Mindvox does appear to be stable. Playing with it now. Is it open yet or not?

And this made me remember something since I just got this tag line

“…Things have Never been so Swell / And I have Never Felt so Well…” –Kurt Cobain

His diaries are being published this month. I’ve never read his bios because I mean to say what is it going to say, his life was bad, he was depressed and did a lot of heroin and then shot himself in the head. But his diaries are some funny funny shit. He was really smart and really funny, without even meaning to be a lot of the time 🙂

“Hope I die before I become Pete Townsend” Mission accomplished.

He didn’t care much for the 12 steps either. Of course his solution to his drug problem was a little extreme even for the do it yourselfers here 😉

Check out the diaries. They aren’t edited, they are plates of his actual journals without any editing. Courtney Love must have one big habit right now 😉 $4 million for his notebooks. Undisclosed settlement for settling out of court with Dave Grohl to release the remaining Nirvana material.

Very strange world seeing “new” Nirvana material at #1 almost ten years later.

Peace out,
Curtis

__________________________________________________________
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:25:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi, I don’t think you’re going to listen to anyone
either. None of the 70 or 80 people who did this
before you ever have before. But I’ll ask anyway. If
you don’t like people who are not following the rules
of whatever recovery you are doing, then why are you
here? That’s what I never understand. I don’t see
anyone from this list all over 12 step sites telling
them how lost they are, or going to meetings and
explaning how they’re wrong and they’re going to have
the meeting shut down.

They could be doing that I don’t have any way of
knowing, but somehow I don’t think so.

Why do you even think that way? If someone believes
something else they should be censored.

I don’t think you’ll reply, I think you post things
like this because you want people to respond to you.
You got your wish I guess.

Carla B

— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from
the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The
crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of
yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have
7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from
heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you
have broken your brain from it and should be
medicated. I was trying to understand if this is
some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is
clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted
to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now
changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd
while he was struggling with his addiction but never
after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
have trappings with the occult. This is lies and
denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help
instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved
millions of lives. I am going to contact your system
admin and get this site pulled off the internet
ASAP.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 5:52:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That was really long and boring, resaid things that have been said 500
times about the CDA and Mindvox.

Patrick’s reply was better ‘please feel free to suck my dick’

This puts me to sleep and the CDA has been dead for at least 5 years.
Who cares.

.:vector:.

— ascending@hushmail.com wrote:

Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small
sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want
to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions
indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason
they want to.

If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening
if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get
a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are
their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network
which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in
Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private
network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in
the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s
over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States
they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down
since the A record isn’t in the US.

Good luck.

The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people
like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in
mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember
right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA
will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I
can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox
moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and
was declared unconstitutional and struck down.

That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would
pass.

The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing
people who are not forcing you to view their content and think
everyone should be accountable to you?

On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
nonsense
being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs

from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken

your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
understand
if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
psychedelic
cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
contact
your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Broward reports wrong vote totals/ One party
Date: November 8, 2002 at 5:49:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From the Vox list.

.:vector:.

— Marguerite <mcc@berryhilllodge.com> wrote:

Diebold – The face of modern ballot tampering

http://www.bartcop.com/110702otter.htm

<http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4460196.htm>http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4460196.htm

Posted on Wed, Nov. 06, 2002
topstory_fromthe_txt.gifarchives_title.gif spacer.gif
spacer.gif

Broward reports wrong vote totals
By EVAN S. BENN
<mailto:ebenn@herald.com>ebenn@herald.com

More than 100,000 votes went missing on Tuesday between the time
they were
counted by electronic machines and the time they were reported on
cable-access television and on the Supervisor of Elections web site.

A glitch in the vote reporting system left a 104,000-vote difference

between Tuesday night’s totals and those reported late Wednesday.

Election officials said the error has no effect on the outcome of
any
races, though voter turnout jumped from 35 percent to 45 percent
after it
was corrected.

And it raises questions about how the supervisor’s office could have

missed that many votes.

”The initial reports didn’t include everything we tabulated,”
Deputy
Supervisor Joe Cotter said. “It was a minor software thing. Once we

realized it, we took the proper steps to fix it.”

Before the county canvassing board members went home early
Wednesday, they
saw a discrepancy in the vote reports, which showed 402,951 people
voted
in the governor’s race, but only 337,976 total ballots were cast.

”That was the red flag,” said Charles Lindsey, an election monitor
from
the state Division of Elections.

Supervisor of Elections Miriam Oliphant said the problem was
”small,”
but admitted she didn’t know what prompted it. ”That’s what the
technical
folks, the [Election Systems & Software] people, are trying to
figure
out,” she said.

The canvassing board plans to meet at 9:30 tonight to certify all
the
votes, except for about 3,000 provisional ballots. Those will be
certified
Thursday morning, before the canvassing board releases official
tallies to
the state.

__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 5:31:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason they want to.

If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down since the A record isn’t in the US.

Good luck.

The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and was declared unconstitutional and struck down.

That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would pass.

The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing people who are not forcing you to view their content and think everyone should be accountable to you?

On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense
being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand
if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic
cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact
your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 3:19:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Some info on Bill Wilson doing LSD – but then you
can’t trust thost drunks at AA to tell the truth.

Brett

http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/pass_it_on.html

Alcoholics Anonymous. (1984).
New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc

ISBN: 0-916856-12-7

Description: Hardcover, 429 pages.

Contents: Foreword, 25 chapters, afterword,
significant dates, Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous, Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous,
sources.

Excerpt(s): As he [Bill Wilson] observed the work
closely, he arrived at this conclusion: It was not
“the material itself [that] actually produces these
experiences. It seems to have the result of sharply
reducing the forces of the ego — temporarily, of
course. It is a generally acknowledged fact in
spiritual development that ego reduction makes the
influx of God’s grace possible. If, therefore, under
LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so that we can
better see what we are and where we are going — well,
that might be of some help. The goal might become
clearer. So I consider LSD to be of some value to some
people, and practically no damage to anyone. It will
never take the place of any of the existing means by
which we can reduce the ego, and keep it reduced.”
(page 370)

Nell continues her story: “Anyway, Bill wanted to see
what it was like. He was intrigued with the work that
Osmond and Hoffer were doing in Saskatoon with
alcoholics. And he thought: ‘Anything that helps the
alcoholics is good and shouldn’t be dismissed out of
hand. Techniques should be explored that would help
some guy or gal recover who could not do it through
A.A. or any other way.’ He gave his full enthusiasm
[to] what other people were doing along that line.
That’s why he took it himself. He had an experience
[that] was totally spiritual, [like] his initial
spiritual experience.”

Bill first took LSD in California, under the guidance
of Gerald Heard. Also present was Sidney Cohen,
psychiatrist at the Veterans Administration Hospital.
The date was August 29, 1956. Tom P. was there, and he
and Gerald Heard took notes about the events of the
afternoon.

Bill was enthusiastic about his experience; he felt it
helped him eliminate many barriers erected by the
self, or ego, that stand in the way of one’s direct
experience of the cosmos and of God. (pages 370-371).

Compilation copyright © 1995 – 2001 CSP

__________________________________________________
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:51:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 07:07:47PM -1100], [Hal Lindey] wrote:

| This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
| I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being
| read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites
| have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and
| melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to
| becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it
| and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some
| joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for
| addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
| addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the
| truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his
| addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
| have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get
| help until you accept your denial.

Uhm, whut somebody said is correct.  We are blocked by every censorware
site on the planet, and have taken no particular action to get around
this.

All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)

| Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
| fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
| system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

I also hafta admit I have had a truly shit day, but thank you.  I’ve just
spent ’bout 5 minutes laughing.  Wait, er, no, I meant to say, I was
SHOCKED, OUTRAGED, DISGUSTED!

Anywaze, on behalf of system administration: please feel free to suck my
dick.  If you have a problem with views expressed herein, please feel free
to contact our upstream provider.  You will be complaint #195,917.  Your
email will never be responded to; if you somehow manage to get a human
being, I’m sure they will be greatly concerned:  “And, THEY said something
which I didn’t agree with!!!!!!11@!!”

<Flipping through script>  <Handing you your next lines> This is the part
where you threaten to sue us, kill us with your love and goodwill, and/or
have us arrested.

Have a great life do0d,

Patrick

p.s., I will set up the after ibogaine list in a few hours and post
further infomayshun here.

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd in 1960 it was 1956
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:06:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Look i hate to say it but i was shocked when i heard the news i have
been going to n.a. for 4 years and A.A. the past 3 years and
predominently A.A. and i’ve personally seen people get alot of faith
there and now they have a defense against addiction.It’s not a cure
but it heps you interact with other people in a similar
sircumstance’s. But Bill W. is not God! Just cuz he did LSD-25 under
the aid of trained psycologists. and PROMOTED IT FROM 1956-1959
doesn’t mean he represents A.A. or the views of! He’s just a human.
Hate to break the news !!  Heres a site a friend showed me its some
of the truth about A.A. Oh and in A.A. they only deal with alcohol.
See when bill took acid that first time. And LOTS of other A.A’s
were upset and said he lost his sober time but he said it really
helps with opening your mind to a spiritual place.He first took
Belladonna in 1955 or 56 and he thinks it helped him get in contact
with his higher power! Anyways it states directly in i think the 5th
tradition that A.A. does not recognize drug addiction only
alcohol.So if you shoot heroin then go to A.A. you can say i shot
dope today but atleast i’m sober! from alcohol! dumn huh? and you
can shoot only heroin for 1 year strait and as long as you don’t
drink you still have a year sober.Witch i think is absolute horse
shit on a stick that’s been removed from a lepers anal wort yeast
infected herpied asshole thats been dipped in cum and pussy juice
from aids patients that had an orgy  right before one puked up her
hemaphrodidic veins mixed with brains of a suicide victim thats been
sitting in the hot sun with maggots crawling all threw it yep thats
what i think! SOOO THERE!!! Except for all the gross stuff at the
end i truly believe that Bill W. took LSD-25 and it DID help him
with his EGO breakdown and mind opening. I know for a fact that
Hallucinogens under the right SET and SETTING can have life changing
and Thought improving aspects to them. And i also know for a fact
that  MDMA can help psycalogically as well i did MDMA therapy 11
months ago and i had amazing breakthrews usually it takes me weeks
to get comfortable enough to mention i was sexually abused as a kid
and directly because of thatsesion i can openly talk about my uncle
M.A.H. and how he sexually abused me and i no longer carry the guilt
around.MDMA did for me what i could not do for myslf.Its unfortunate
that the goverment has to ruinit for everybody just cuz they want
people to vote for them it is discusting. But yes i think you can
here the anger in my voice i think i need to do some soul serching
but my ego always gets in the way Yours Truly EGODEATH.COM

YOURS TRULY NIK http://open-mind.org/News/AA/11.htm
— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud
of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th
graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have
done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to
psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be
medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction.
Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now
changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was
struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill
Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is
lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of
mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am
going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off
the internet ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3
Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.

http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 12:12:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Subject: Re:  [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

> You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
> Get me off this list.

E.g. don’t help him get off the list until he accepts his denial.

A beautiful letter – I wish I had the time to cook up stuff like
that.

Bill

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 12:02:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list.

Hilarious! But sad..

Bill

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 10:41:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lies and denial?  You are obviously ignorant of the facts.  Bill W.’s
biography…PUBLISHED BY AA WORLD SERVICES, by the way, clearly relates
that Bill used LSD and promoted the use of same between 1956-1959.  It
certainly isn’t denied by the AA authorities.  As far as doing it while
he struggled with his addiction, I don’t think so.  He stopped drinking
in 1935.  He didn’t use LSD until 1956.  Albert Hoffman didn’t even
discover it until 1943.

You state that we are “now changing the truth.”  I think you should
turn the mirror around and take a hard look at the FACT that for some
reason, you are unwilling and/or unable to cope with what the actual
truth is on the matter.

You further state “Not one of you is clean.”   What do you base this
assumption on?  I don’t smoke. I drink 2-3 glasses of wine per month.
Since 1988 I have used Salvia Divinorum on one occasion. I have also
used LA-111 one one occasion since 1988.  So yeah, I guess I’m just
“dirty.”  I run marathons for fun, study 1-2 hours per day, and work out
3x per week.  I go to Church every Sunday, have four kids and am happily
married for 11 years now.  I have an MA, and am also a MCSE, and will
likely pursue a PhD.  I can honestly say I’m not addicted to anything.
Not one bit of it came as a result of ‘sitting in the rooms.”

As far as your statmement “the fellowship that has saved millions of
lives,” all I can say is, it seems pretty clear that you don’t
understand the concept of doing research, as you’ve already made
up…closed…your mind.  Read the research sir.  AA/NA is only taking
credit for the cases of spontaneous remission.  I’m sure it works well
as a systematic approach for a number of people…but it isn’t
statistically relevant. I’m glad it works for you.  AA’s very own GAO
publishes admittedly dismal numbers.  Check your facts.

You have a small mind and I doubt the “system admin” will hear your
pleas, unless “the crazy boy” somehow finds your comments reasonable.

(I’m in a bad mood today, by the way)

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

hlindsey1@lycos.com 11/08/02 01:07AM >>>
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being
read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites
have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and
melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to
becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it
and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some
joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for
addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the
truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his
addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get
help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 8, 2002 at 9:45:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jon

Speaking of quitting smoking….does anyone know how
effective ibogaine is
with that?

Which one <g>.

Yes, ibo does work for quitting cigarettes. Several
times when I was “treated” as a side effect or some
deliberate thought behind it I stopped cigarettes for
a while (days/weeks) but at the time I had “other”
things more important on my mind – quitting smoking
was not primary importance. Then I ran out of
addictions and demons, till all I was left with was
cigarettes (well, sort of).

The last time I did ibo I did it without any “plan” to
quit, just went into it without any agenda and let it
do whatever it wanted to do. I DID NOT stop smoking,
smoked (but the thought was kind of there, it always
was…) throughout the experience and after. But I had
been kicking myself in the ass about wanting to quit
for a while, some thoughts about it were bouncing
around my head more than usual after the ibo session
and a week after I did the ibo – I tossed the
cigarettes. I did NOT try to quit, I was not
“quitting”, there was no stop smoking plan of action,
no I will do it in the morning cause I already smoked
– no games at all. From the very second (well, maybe a
minute or two) I made that decision, I was a
NON-SMOKER, no question, no doubt, none of those
little addiction games that are so much fun… I
picked up the pack and tossed em, never looked back –
but sure I had some special “moments” where it grabbed
me with a craving now and then. That made it quite
easy actually. That was 4 months ago, I still chew
some nicorette but will stop soon.

I quit heroin and cocaine 4 years ago (before i knew

Yeah, well I gave up all “that shit” and to think I
was now killing myself with cigarettes… I refused to
do it. I didn’t want yet another “regret” later on in
life for the things I did now…

what ibogaine was),
but i just can’t seem to quit smoking… cigarettes
that is, i don’t have
any desire to quit smoking pot… =)

Ummm, when I quit cigarettes, I found myself smoking
more of something else – this is not something I
usually do much of (mostly for nausea from headaches
and the pain itself). So, I just stopped – hear that,
just stopped smoking pot, simple, not a problem,
didn’t need ibogaine, no “treatment” or therapy, just
a little sleeplessness (on top of some sleeplessness
from quitting smoking AND I have found Nicorette
causes me problems sleeping) – and NO, I didn’t take
any sleeping pills or “something else”. NOT that I
would pass it up at a party but I can’t keep it around
like some people can’t keep ice cream in the freezer
or they will eat it. POOF, done with, it is just a
matter of doing some motions after that. Why did I
stop smoking “the other stuff”, cause I was not
comfortable smoking as much as I started to after
quitting cigarettes – pretty much.

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander
userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness

http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html

————————————————————————–
“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization
is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 8:23:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hal, whoever or whatever you are

Thanks for your post, that was one real sick piece of
work, very good.  What a GREAT way to start the day.
You have me in rolling in laughter, that was so funny,
absolutely hillarious!

Nice to see someone with a real sense of humor around
here for a change…

Brett

— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from
the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The
crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of
yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have
7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from
heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you
have broken your brain from it and should be
medicated. I was trying to understand if this is
some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is
clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted
to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now
changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd
while he was struggling with his addiction but never
after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
have trappings with the occult. This is lies and
denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help
instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved
millions of lives. I am going to contact your system
admin and get this site pulled off the internet
ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB
Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.

http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:19:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.<

Exactly why the War continues. “Can’t stand what yer saying so let me try and shut you down.”
What a sad way to live life.
Good luck and peace to you.
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hal Lindey
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:07 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] somethings run in the family ,
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:21:19 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just came across mention of Max Glatt in that “Pursuit of Oblivion” book I’m reading, more a quote about heroin addiction from someone being treated by him, not actually about Max Glatt himself.
Just thought I’d share that.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: sara glatt
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl ; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] somethings run in the family ,

Max Glatt
Pioneer in the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts
Silvio Benaim
Saturday May 25, 2002
The Guardian
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was one of the pioneers in the treatment and rehabilitation of alcoholics and drug addicts. Perhaps more than anyone else, he was responsible for a change in attitude – from one that regarded alcoholics as nuisances to one that saw them as patients requiring treatment.
Born in Berlin into a prosperous middle-class family (his father was an insurance broker), Max was destined for a prestigious academic career in medicine but the racial laws of the time made it practically impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment. Even so, in 1936, Max was awarded a doctorate in neurological medicine at Leipzig University. He should have left Germany then but he delayed his departure. When, after Kristallnacht in 1938, he tried to escape to Holland, he was captured by frontier guards and taken to Dachau. He later learned that, at the same time, his parents were taken to a concentration camp in Estonia where they were eventually killed. His sister, who had been smuggled across the border into Holland, was the only other member of his family to survive.
Max, the eternal optimist, the man who saw no evil in his fellow human beings, was forced to review his beliefs and his attitudes. But this did not lead to bitterness. He returned to Germany to lecture and to receive honours from various universities. He remained interested in his native country, particularly in the experiences of those who, like the Bielenbergs, had remained in Germany while in opposition to the Nazi regime.
Max arrived in England in 1940. He was soon classified as an enemy alien and was sent to Australia. By 1942, he was back in this country and his medical career, which was to stretch over 60 years, took off.
His work began – as it was to continue – in psychiatric hospitals. From early on he had decided to dedicate himself to the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts. He identified with them, seeing them as people who had been stigmatised and made to feel unwelcome.
In 1952, he set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism at Warlingham Park Hospital in Croydon. In 1962 he set up a unit for the treatment of both alcoholism and drug addiction at St Bernards Hospital, in Ealing, west London, a unit that is now called the Max Glatt Centre. Both units as well as further centres, private and NHS, in which he was involved were run on group lines on therapeutic community principles. He set up the first treatment unit in a prison – Wormwood Scrubs – which now also bears his name and where he continued to run groups until just before his death. There, his interest in football helped him to forge a close relationship with the inmates who named their football team “the Glatt Dynamos”.
Max was on the honorary staff of four London teaching hospitals and taught their students. He chaired or sat on countless committees and was an adviser on alcohol and drug addiction to the WHO. He advised the BMA, the Home Office, the royal colleges and many other interested bodies. He was the cofounder of the Medical Council on Alcoholism and of the National Council on Alcoholism. He edited journals on alcohol and drug addiction and wrote a full and comprehensive textbook, entitled Alcoholism, which was first published in the 1960s. He often gave it to his patients.
He received many honorary degrees in this country and abroad and was held in high esteem by his colleagues.
Max was universally liked and admired. He understood both alcohol and drug addicts, was never censorious and seldom gave up hope. This enabled patients to open up to him both in group and individual sessions. He used to say that he was addicted to addicts.
He was a quiet, modest and gentle person with a sharp sense of humour and an infectious smile. He was deeply religious, devoted to his wife and family and of course to his work. He ran his weekly group at the Florence Nightingale Hospital until he suffered a fall from which he never recovered.
Max Meier Glatt, doctor, born January 26 1912; died May 14 2002

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 3:02:41 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the
internet ASAP.”

Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!

Whew! Good one! Man, can we get him back? Some comic relief is always
welcome …

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Hal Lindey” <hlindsey1@lycos.com>

This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d
hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all
banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming
addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should
be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of
you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics
like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have
done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This
is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 2:11:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, ccadden wrote:

I did acid with Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, and then we worshipped satan
together. We asked him to send us a demon to amuse us, and we got him—it
was you.

man, you forgot the anal sex orgy.

you can’t forget the anal sex orgy!

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 2:09:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, Hal Lindey wrote:

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

ahaha. oh dear….please tell me this is patrick on a fake account fucking
with us!

=)

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: November 8, 2002 at 2:03:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, steve diamond wrote:

They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.

not that i’m defending them in any way, because this is none of my
business anyway and whatnot, but i was under the impression that ibogaine
and/or iboga extracts generally didn’t lose potency over time….is that
incorrect?

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”

From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:38:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I did acid with Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, and then we worshipped satan
together. We asked him to send us a demon to amuse us, and we got him—it
was you.

Chris

—– Original Message —–
From: “Hal Lindey” <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:07 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd

This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d
hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read
by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have
all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming
addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should
be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of
you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics
like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have
done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This
is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:31:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com

In reply who cares. You’re also the same asshole who posts 1000 stupid
messages on every entheogen web site on the internet how all of them
are being watched and will be shut down. I’m sure the system admin will
care deeply, since the system admin who owns all the computers that run
Mindvox is the same person who runs this list.

That’s you. Lindey and Lindsey, sometimes Hlind also. You had a bad
acid trip right?

And if Mindvox is banned on all k12 sites which it is, it’s also banned
on net nanny, net watch, all those censorship organizations. Then how
are 7th graders reading it from school? Derrr.

I don’t care what Bill Wilson did or didn’t do. He’s not my guide to
life. If he liked to do up LSD or not doesn’t make any difference to
anybody except 12 step cult members.

.:vector:.

— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense
being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies
this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You
have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and
ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done
lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the
occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept
your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet
ASAP.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:24:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You, my friend, must be smoking some good shit.    Mundo.
Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus

 

Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD

From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:15:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine is suppsed to help that too. The cigarette addiction.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Jon Freedlander” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][

On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:

Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.

Speaking of quitting smoking….does anyone know how effective ibogaine
is
with that?

I quit heroin and cocaine 4 years ago (before i knew what ibogaine was),
but i just can’t seem to quit smoking… cigarettes that is, i don’t have
any desire to quit smoking pot… =)

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander        userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html


————————————————————————-

“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:11:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:

Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.

Speaking of quitting smoking….does anyone know how effective ibogaine is
with that?

I quit heroin and cocaine 4 years ago (before i knew what ibogaine was),
but i just can’t seem to quit smoking… cigarettes that is, i don’t have
any desire to quit smoking pot… =)

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass

From: “Hal Lindey” <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:07:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.

Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.

__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:02:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:

It is not AA/12 steps that bother me so much as the
interpretation/people that I have a problem with in
the “rooms”, with their boogy-man disease is going to
get you if you don’t do these things or do those
things.  Yeah, yeah, take what you need… right, it
is just so depressing for me – BUT finally I can go to
meetings and not want to use when I come out. That is
NOT a joke and NOT funny and is the reason I stopped
going.

You’re definately not alone in that experience. Maybe it just goes to
prove that i’m a bastard, but after sitting through an NA meeting, i felt
so enraged at the group think, at the destruction of personality, the best
thing to do to get back at them (in my twisted junky mind) was to go out and
use, with a vengence

__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander       userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–                                                                        –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 7, 2002 at 8:54:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet

They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.

I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a plane
ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
resembling a heart.

Steve Diamond

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000

re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed me
the
following:

Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months ago –
it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was harvested
right
before shipment.

Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the saleslist
and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources – we
prefer to trade with locals.

Regards
Claus

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: November 7, 2002 at 5:54:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling year old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.

I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a plane ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything resembling a heart.

Steve Diamond

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000

re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed me the
following:

Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months ago – it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as medium. I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was harvested right
before shipment.

Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the saleslist and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources – we
prefer to trade with locals.

Regards
Claus

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 7, 2002 at 5:34:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To me, the main difference between opiates and pot is the physical addiction. Americans are proud of independence in every sense of the world. Heroin robs a person of independence because, once addicted, a person becomes impotent without it. Nothing can happen before an addict gets “fixed.” The fact of the matter is even the most ardent pot head can still go to work, go to the movies or get laid if he misses a much desired bong hit.

Another big difference is the amount of time wasted by the heroin addict copping. Most heroin addicts are incapable of keeping more than one day’s supply on hand without using it. Consequently, they must go out and buy dope on a daily basis. Even in the most regular purchasing environments, problems arise. Dealers sell out. Cops chase them off. Beat artists sell fake dope, requiring a second trip to cop. Nothing is worse to the heroin addict than getting home and using a beat bag of dope. Instantly, the addict becomes twice as sick as he was in the first place. His brain tricks him into being sick. At that point the desire to use, to fix, becomes overwhelming to many. Kids’ piggy banks are not safe. Items of value may go to the pawn shop. The rent, tax money, the money for a father’s grave stone – all of it is at immeidate risk. Jobs, relationships, virtually anything of value becomes secondary to fixing the problem. Life itself is without value to the dope sick heroin addict. What is the point of living if this is what life feels like? If life has little value, what is the value of a material object if it can be traded for not wanting to kill ones self? So what if it is the family silverware that has been in the family for generations? I would not miss it if I were dead.

The next thing is the money involved. As a habit grows so does the cost. Show me a pot head who can smoke $500 per day of weed and I’ll show you somebody who is smoking oregano.

Otherwise, people with a regular supply of consistent quality dope can be very productive. The chief of surgery at Johns Hopkins University in the early 1900’s was a morphine addict. He shot morphine on a daily basis and ran the surgical department very well. I know other dope fiends who are highly functional.

Is the answer abstinence or availability? I guess England is trying to answer that question now. I vote for both. Methadone addiction is far worse than heroin. Addicts not ready to try living clean should have access to a ready supply of clean dope at a cheap cost. It would make safe children’s piggy banks and empty many jail cells. The taxes made from selling dope could finance treatment centers offering ibogaine, bupe, 12 steps, electroshock therapy – what ever works.

still strung out and losing hope – steve

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:21:47 -0800

I won’t pretend to answer for Marc … but, for one thing, quitting heroin
after using for a while is a physically debilitating process, very much so –
it can even kill you, in severe cases. There is also tolerance. Most heroin
addicts are just trying to feel normal when they get a fix, to avoid
kicking, as their tolerance has developed for it, and the high is
diminished. This happens to an extent with mj, but save for the heaviest
smokers, even consistent, daily users get high – they aren’t trying to reach
up to baseline or avoid withdrawals. Here’s something to consider – if you
smoked pot every day for six months, you could quit easily. Of course some
people really do not want to, and there may be some psychological dependence
for some. But if you did heroin every day for six months, quitting cold
turkey wouldn’t be so pleasant. This becomes more and more difficult as time
goes by. For most pot smokers, it’s self-limiting. Many people reach an age
where they don’t want to smoke anymore, or maybe not as often. Such
transitions seem to be quite simple for them. Of course, there are people
who will develop dependence on many things, and pot may be a part of that,
but it’s surely not on the same level of addiction as tobacco. We are
hearing now about Snoop Dogg quitting smoking herb, but I haven’t heard
anything about him going in for detox or even rehab. Maybe he’s getting
counselling, not sure … but he’s not strapped to a bed.

All that said, I think that demonizing the user is ultimately destructive.
We see stoners on TV and movies and laugh, and see junkies and cringe. It’s
that fear, deep within ourselves, that this reveals: the fear of loss of
control. The junkie is the archetype of the individual who has lost control,
even if that may not entirely be true in individual situations. We fear
this, though, the unchecked Id, the Superego having been drowned out, to put
it in Freudian terms. This is the source of much guilt and shame, and is the
basis of 12-step programs, with even their meetings consisting of many
confessionals. So, we fear losing control, and we are loathe to see anyone
else in that situation – we fear that part of ourselves, the compulsive and
obsessive part. All entheogens and intoxicants are treated this way by many
societies with a Puritanical streak. Part of that shameful perspective, and
something that came up in the drugwar list, is that getting “high” is seen
as a “bad” thing. Ultimately, it’s very much a human thing, and sometimes
it’s a good thing, but of course that’s subjective. We see it as “escapism”
or “dependence,” even if the use is not at all that way. But each to his or
her own, and these things do have different effects. I feel no guilt about
my own marijuana use, though I can say positively that I would not want to
go through years of opioid use and/or addiction. Sounds like that road leads
to one of two places: sobriety from opioids or death. The same can be said
of alcoholics. And even then there will be people who buck the trend. But I
don’t see the same consequences with pot use. Some people lose motivation
and/or focus when smoking too much, but that’s a persoanl issue; it doesn’t
affect all people this way. OTOH, *anyone* who uses opioids for long enough
will become physically dependent on them.

For me, personally, marijuana is a miracle. It helped me get through chemo
due to cancer twelve years ago, and it helps me today in other ways. If it
weren’t illegal, I’d be a farmer, no joke. Depending on what happens, I may
yet get that chance.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>

> Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
>
> I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
>
> What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
>
> Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
> Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
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>
>

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Enquiry to the Medicines Control Agency RE: Tabernathe iboga
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:27:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: AndriaE@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Enquiry to the Medicines Control Agency RE: Tabernathe iboga

Nick thanx for the info from MCA

What would be the story then IF someone was known to be administering it to others? Or is that not written about?

It’s complicated legally, and too much to get into really. If you give it to people you just have to hope the Great Spirit is with you and they don’t die, basically. If they do, you need to be prepared to go through the whole legal process and all that stuff.

Nick
andria

Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:32:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:17 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours after ingestion of
4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or
so.

Marc

Hi Marc,

When he comes down, be great to hear what happened to him, if he feels like
writing stuff. This, like painting and other expressive stuff, can also be
very integrating.

all the best and it’s great work you’re doing

Nick

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&3rd^%#&eye&$69#$^%96%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:37:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Put your hands on PASS IT ON: The story of Bill Wilson and how the AA
message reached the world. Published by AA world Services, 1984.
Chapter 23 gives a good summary.

Brief mention is given of his Belladonna treatment in the AA Big Book.
It is barely noted in Pass it On.  Belladonna, as you may or may not
know, was the primary ingredient in “witches brew,” applied to
“broomsticks” and was inserted vaginally, thus enabling witches to
“fly.”

Here’s an interesting link: http://open-mind.org/News/AA/11.htm

I haven’t read the following yet, but see also:

Bill W. and Mr. Wilson — The Legend and Life of A.A.’s Cofounder
Matthew J. Raphael
University of Massachusetts Press, Amherst, Mass., 2000.
ISBN 1-55849-245-3
Library Call Number B W11r 2000
This book was written by another stepper — the name ‘Matthew Raphael’
is a pen name — and it generally praises Bill Wilson and recites the
party line about most things, but it also contains a bunch of surprises,
like detailing Bill’s sexual infidelities, his and Bob’s spook sessions
— talking to the ‘spirits’ in seances through the use of Ouija boards,
spirit rapping, clairvoyance, and levitation — LSD use, and
publicity-hound megalomania.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] somethings run in the family ,
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:37:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Max Glatt
Pioneer in the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts
Silvio Benaim
Saturday May 25, 2002
The Guardian
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was one of the pioneers in the treatment and rehabilitation of alcoholics and drug addicts. Perhaps more than anyone else, he was responsible for a change in attitude – from one that regarded alcoholics as nuisances to one that saw them as patients requiring treatment.
Born in Berlin into a prosperous middle-class family (his father was an insurance broker), Max was destined for a prestigious academic career in medicine but the racial laws of the time made it practically impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment. Even so, in 1936, Max was awarded a doctorate in neurological medicine at Leipzig University. He should have left Germany then but he delayed his departure. When, after Kristallnacht in 1938, he tried to escape to Holland, he was captured by frontier guards and taken to Dachau. He later learned that, at the same time, his parents were taken to a concentration camp in Estonia where they were eventually killed. His sister, who had been smuggled across the border into Holland, was the only other member of his family to survive.
Max, the eternal optimist, the man who saw no evil in his fellow human beings, was forced to review his beliefs and his attitudes. But this did not lead to bitterness. He returned to Germany to lecture and to receive honours >from various universities. He remained interested in his native country, particularly in the experiences of those who, like the Bielenbergs, had remained in Germany while in opposition to the Nazi regime.
Max arrived in England in 1940. He was soon classified as an enemy alien and was sent to Australia. By 1942, he was back in this country and his medical career, which was to stretch over 60 years, took off.
His work began – as it was to continue – in psychiatric hospitals. From early on he had decided to dedicate himself to the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts. He identified with them, seeing them as people who had been stigmatised and made to feel unwelcome.
In 1952, he set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism at Warlingham Park Hospital in Croydon. In 1962 he set up a unit for the treatment of both alcoholism and drug addiction at St Bernards Hospital, in Ealing, west London, a unit that is now called the Max Glatt Centre. Both units as well as further centres, private and NHS, in which he was involved were run on group lines on therapeutic community principles. He set up the first treatment unit in a prison – Wormwood Scrubs – which now also bears his name and where he continued to run groups until just before his death. There, his interest in football helped him to forge a close relationship with the inmates who named their football team “the Glatt Dynamos”.
Max was on the honorary staff of four London teaching hospitals and taught their students. He chaired or sat on countless committees and was an adviser on alcohol and drug addiction to the WHO. He advised the BMA, the Home Office, the royal colleges and many other interested bodies. He was the cofounder of the Medical Council on Alcoholism and of the National Council on Alcoholism. He edited journals on alcohol and drug addiction and wrote a full and comprehensive textbook, entitled Alcoholism, which was first published in the 1960s. He often gave it to his patients.
He received many honorary degrees in this country and abroad and was held in high esteem by his colleagues.
Max was universally liked and admired. He understood both alcohol and drug addicts, was never censorious and seldom gave up hope. This enabled patients to open up to him both in group and individual sessions. He used to say that he was addicted to addicts.
He was a quiet, modest and gentle person with a sharp sense of humour and an infectious smile. He was deeply religious, devoted to his wife and family and of course to his work. He ran his weekly group at the Florence Nightingale Hospital until he suffered a fall from which he never recovered.
Max Meier Glatt, doctor, born January 26 1912; died May 14 2002

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:30:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

By not charging people, I am also not breaking any laws, since ibogaine is
unscheduled and by not charging money I am not practicing medicine without
a
licence.

When there is no charge I am merely assisting a self-administering
friend, entirely legal.

Also, since I am an apprentice iboga practitioner, I
consider this my education period. Education costs. So my payment is a few
years of free service to the cause of assisting drug addicts to go clean,
and I learn plenty in the meantime. I see such impressive results already,
I
am not discouraged and I am happy to learn this way. My helpers are great,
and we are already looking at working a property as our therapy centre. If
wealthy people or  others want to donate so we can enlarge the outreach,
that will be great. And that will happen, but later as I refine our
practice
and our objectives.

None of these addicts have any money anyway, and their families offer to
pay
(we accept their meals and accommodation when its not in our facility),
but
I decline the money. I feel much better right now having no monetary
interests, besides, its good karma to know the cannabis community is
ultimately paying to treat hard core drug addicts, another blessing on my
people for their good sense in sending me alot of money.

Sara, I hope you weren’t upset I am doing it for free. And you know I have
been there to help you when no one else could, that money I advanced your
way earlier this year (or was it even last year?) was from the cannabis
community through me, the same way I am treating addicts is the same way I
saved you from ?disaster?

Which your friend Dana caused me by sending to me his friends to learn
about Iboga and to ripp me off .They damaged me and my family for more then
30,000 dollars and left the country ,when I asked Dana to help me
give me my own money back ,
then he asked me to call you cause his money was to provid Barbie with
her great coloring book ,instead of giving me back for many treatments
and help I gave him in 2000 .

By the way Sascha  has been  here   for a visit when Dana’s helping friends
were  here, that was in march 2002 and in April the police came .

You can better ask Dana for favours because I have nothing to offer ,
if I had my money back I could pay you back .then you  got enough
Iboga when you asked for it , so you can do two treatments for money
and get your money back .

I was hoping I could send Linette and Terry (my helpers) over to work with
you for a week or so as payback to me, so they could benefit by your
knowledge in exchange for the favour I extended to you.

I understand the idea of people appreciating what they pay for. I like the
freedom in choosing whom to treat (we have many applicants) without the
question of money. I choose the candidates that I want/can/seem likliest
to
help with based also on what we can learn from the experience, so its an
education for everyone involved.

That’s  for  sure and you have my blessings for it .there are millions of
addicts ,

Take care,

Sara

19@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find
all
you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,

treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are
treatment
providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
to get the knowledge and  reputation , but who cares if its done for
nothing
it must be good ,

—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that
one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.

That’s very righteous of you.

.:vector:.

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:

One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are
the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..

It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that
he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively.  ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)

The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon,
who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at
the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m.
,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.

Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.

The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix.
It
went
straight to his psyche.

Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.

Marc Emery

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂

Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?

Thank you,

Carla B

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient

24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.

It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?

cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.

That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.

later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that

Pretty typical IMO.

everything was normal throughout the experience.

Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.

When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My

The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.

coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.

Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.

I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.

For sure, IMO.

Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so

I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game.  What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.

He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t

It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).

My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent  hospice for iboga therapy.

You are doing amazing work! Thank You.

Brett

__________________________________________________
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__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&3rd^%#&eye&$69#$^%96%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:56:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you rick you really opened my eyes and also helped disolve the
thought that bill and other original A.A.s did it on there own.
OH well thats life it’s just so funny to hear peoples reactions at
A.A meetings when i tell them about the LSD-25 thing.It’s so
funny.Thank you so much hey is there anymore info you have on the
subject?
— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Yup.  think I posted something a few days ago about Bill’s LSD
experience.  In case you missed it, he was an active promoter of
LSD use
for destruction and recreation of the ego (1956-1959).  Approx. 1
year
prior to his “spiritual awakening,” he was treated with the
psychoactive
substance Belladonna (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME).  This begs the
question…what was the impetus for Bill’s Spiritual awakening?

Not sure I would say that he used LSD to help with his alcoholism,
however.   He’d been sober for 21 years prior to dosing.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&&$%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 11:00:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yup.  think I posted something a few days ago about Bill’s LSD
experience.  In case you missed it, he was an active promoter of LSD use
for destruction and recreation of the ego (1956-1959).  Approx. 1 year
prior to his “spiritual awakening,” he was treated with the psychoactive
substance Belladonna (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME).  This begs the
question…what was the impetus for Bill’s Spiritual awakening?

Not sure I would say that he used LSD to help with his alcoholism,
however.   He’d been sober for 21 years prior to dosing.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&&$%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 10:50:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I just found out yesterday that bill W. THE founder of the countrys
first A.A. used to use Lysergic acid Diethelamide#25 to help w/his
alcaholism i have been doing lots of studies on this subject.Last
night i brought that up and i said to the group so is it considered
Relapsing if you take a drug with the intents for using it as a
medical aid to help with addiction.Well some of the old timers got
pissed and they wanted to deny the facts but they couldn’t.And then
clear out of the blue my friend and Ex junkie friend says well ive
used this stuff called ibogaine and i didnt consider it a relapse!!
WOW i said and needless to say i gave him the 100 questions
afterward.He said its a good thing but they promote it as a cure
when realy all it is is an aid to help with addiction.Thats were
alot of the misconception is.He also said 3 people did it with him
and two are clean i assked what happened with the  1 guy he said it
was a girl and he said that she said  that she didn’t do any follow
up she just thought she was cured untill  a month later when she was
dancing with  the spike again oh well thats all folks!MEEPMEEP!

__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 7:39:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Actually, I think Eric Taub’s website is similar. I beginagain,

The name ibeganagain was intended as a reference thereto.
ibeganigan..

The reference of “I have eaten” is to traditional African
usage, as I believe Howard can attest.

Bill

From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 7:04:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Actually, I think Eric Taub’s website is similar. I beginagain, I believe is
his site.

Randy

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 6:46:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Show me your
tracks or I won’t sell to you. <

Hmmm, sounds like Rikers Island. The docs there were the same way with their methadone. No tracks? Tough shit.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][

On [Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 08:03:33PM -0500], [AndriaE@aol.com] wrote:

| U R not a leper! Several people on this list have used 12-steps to help
| through the roughest times, including myself.

They work out for sum people.  You’re not a leper.  If you are, I’m sure
they have a support group for that by now too.  <group hug> <serenity
prayer>

| As for a list: mmh, last night I almost completely unsubscribed to this one
| due to lack of sleep.. Why don’t U ask around and on this list again, and see
| if people think there is a need for  such a thing

Otay, name it.  postibogaine, afteribogaine, ibogaine2thesequel.  Whatcha
wannit called, I’ll make it tomorrow.  I seem to have roughly 20 letters
to that effect.  Sorta.  They’re more like, “you need to DELETE asshole
#1, #15, and #27, I hate them and they suck.  Why do they post to the
list??!?!?”

Basically, this is how DrugWar started in the first place.  Which is to
say this list getting overloaded, overlapped, and filled up with too much
material.

And…  Thusly, so, like…  The criteria for entry is what…?  Having
done ibogaine?  Having done ibogaine to get unsprung?  Show me your
tracks or I won’t sell to you.  Give me Complete Documented Proof and a
blood sample.  Or just like, take a lot of effort and lie in a convincing
manner…

Whatever.  I’ll set it up tomorrow…

Patrick

p.s., I am reading my mail spool, I promise, for real, right now, even as
I write this I’m already starting.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 5:25:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I gotta say that if you had been in operation when I was kicking, I most probably woulda tried my best to make it to Canada.;-))
Sounds like a much more interesting way to detox than any I went through.
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

By not charging people, I am also not breaking any laws, since ibogaine is
unscheduled and by not charging money I am not practicing medicine without a
licence. When there is no charge I am merely assisting a self-administering
friend, entirely legal. Also, since I am an apprentice iboga practitioner, I
consider this my education period. Education costs. So my payment is a few
years of free service to the cause of assisting drug addicts to go clean,
and I learn plenty in the meantime. I see such impressive results already, I
am not discouraged and I am happy to learn this way. My helpers are great,
and we are already looking at working a property as our therapy centre. If
wealthy people or  others want to donate so we can enlarge the outreach,
that will be great. And that will happen, but later as I refine our practice
and our objectives.

None of these addicts have any money anyway, and their families offer to pay
(we accept their meals and accommodation when its not in our facility), but
I decline the money. I feel much better right now having no monetary
interests, besides, its good karma to know the cannabis community is
ultimately paying to treat hard core drug addicts, another blessing on my
people for their good sense in sending me alot of money.

Sara, I hope you weren’t upset I am doing it for free. And you know I have
been there to help you when no one else could, that money I advanced your
way earlier this year (or was it even last year?) was from the cannabis
community through me, the same way I am treating addicts is the same way I
saved you from ?disaster?

I was hoping I could send Linette and Terry (my helpers) over to work with
you for a week or so as payback to me, so they could benefit by your
knowledge in exchange for the favour I extended to you.

I understand the idea of people appreciating what they pay for. I like the
freedom in choosing whom to treat (we have many applicants) without the
question of money. I choose the candidates that I want/can/seem likliest to
help with based also on what we can learn from the experience, so its an
education for everyone involved.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

> I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find all
> you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,
>
> treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
> Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are treatment
> providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
> to get the knowledge and  reputation , but who cares if its done for
nothing
> it must be good ,
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
>
>
> > Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
> > drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
> > out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
> > but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
> > with anyone else.
> >
> > That’s very righteous of you.
> >
> > .:vector:.
> >
> > — MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > > The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
> > >
> > > One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
> > > remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
> > > plant
> > > extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
> > > told by J.
> > > Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
> > > though I
> > > used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
> > >
> > > It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
> > > visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
> > > have a
> > > variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
> > > has
> > > two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
> > > mg
> > > respectively.  ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
> > >
> > > The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
> > > was
> > > detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
> > > low dose,
> > > 7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
> > > him 4,800
> > > grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
> > > said,
> > > without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
> > > continue
> > > for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
> > > 8- 10
> > > hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
> > > begins
> > > at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
> > > 4.30
> > > a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
> > > intial
> > > dose. THen up and active.
> > >
> > > Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
> > > course) by
> > > the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
> > > He will
> > > be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
> > > tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
> > > iboga
> > > therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
> > > the
> > > experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
> > >
> > > The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
> > > entheogarden
> > > extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
> > > without
> > > withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
> > > his
> > > system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
> > > not need
> > > to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
> > > went
> > > straight to his psyche.
> > >
> > > Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
> > > ‘smell it’
> > > or ‘feel it’ days later.
> > >
> > > Marc Emery
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
> > > > you from all of us! 🙂
> > > >
> > > > Since you are now using both indra and the new
> > > > extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
> > > > between the two? From giving it to people, do they
> > > > respond to it in different ways and does someone
> > > > prefer one over the other?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > >
> > > > Carla B
> > > >
> > > > — MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > > > > Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
> > > > > after ingestion of 4,800
> > > > > mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
> > > > > experiencing an epiphany or so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marc Emery
> > > > > —– Original Message —–
> > > > > From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
> > > > > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > 24 hours earlier he had fixed with
> > > > > > > meth-amphetamine and
> > > > > > > heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > realized.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
> > > > > course
> > > > > > CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
> > > > > Eg, if
> > > > > > the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
> > > > > before
> > > > > > tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
> > > > > and
> > > > > > of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
> > > > > the
> > > > > > “fault” of the iboga, eh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
> > > > > fixed.
> > > > > > > In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
> > > > > fixing
> > > > > > > only that once.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
> > > > > > other treatments almost always, once they start
> > > > > using,
> > > > > > they are back in the saddle/off to the races
> > > > > > (whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
> > > > > does
> > > > > > not mean failure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > later. He says it is totally different from two
> > > > > > > weeks ago, when he said that
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pretty typical IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > everything was normal throughout the experience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
> > > > > lack of
> > > > > > visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I left him (40 minutes
> > > > > > > ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > experiencing plenty. My
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
> > > > > > orally it would prove difficult to get more down
> > > > > them
> > > > > > (and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
> > > > > > Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > coworkers will be with him at all times but we
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > clearly impressed Sheldon
> > > > > > > is having quite a self-actualization.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
> > > > > after
> > > > > > being made. I hear people put it down for that
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > (it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
> > > > > they
> > > > > > are talking about. It does however seem more
> > > > > > unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
> > > > > > unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
> > > > > > Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
> > > > > to
> > > > > > me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
> > > > > > Ethnogardens extract.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think it helps that he is not being physically
> > > > > > > detoxed like last time, but
> > > > > > > psychologically detoxed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For sure, IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sheldon used to think
> > > > > > > counselling/analysis was a
> > > > > > > game, he liked to predict their next question,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > this self examination
> > > > > > > through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
> > > > > and so
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
> > > > > it
> > > > > > ain’t no game.  What some people do is fight it,
> > > > > which
> > > > > > seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
> > > > > or
> > > > > > somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > He told us he’s very
> > > > > > > happy, ‘though I can
> > > > > > > still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
> > > > > course
> > > > > > on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
> > > > > little
> > > > > > higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
> > > > > > “feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
> > > > > initial
> > > > > > shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > getting inquiries from
> > > > > > > all over for treatment. We are looking at a
> > > > > rural
> > > > > > > property on Friday to
> > > > > > > develop a permanent  hospice for iboga therapy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brett
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
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> > > > U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:57:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

By not charging people, I am also not breaking any laws, since ibogaine is
unscheduled and by not charging money I am not practicing medicine without a
licence. When there is no charge I am merely assisting a self-administering
friend, entirely legal. Also, since I am an apprentice iboga practitioner, I
consider this my education period. Education costs. So my payment is a few
years of free service to the cause of assisting drug addicts to go clean,
and I learn plenty in the meantime. I see such impressive results already, I
am not discouraged and I am happy to learn this way. My helpers are great,
and we are already looking at working a property as our therapy centre. If
wealthy people or  others want to donate so we can enlarge the outreach,
that will be great. And that will happen, but later as I refine our practice
and our objectives.

None of these addicts have any money anyway, and their families offer to pay
(we accept their meals and accommodation when its not in our facility), but
I decline the money. I feel much better right now having no monetary
interests, besides, its good karma to know the cannabis community is
ultimately paying to treat hard core drug addicts, another blessing on my
people for their good sense in sending me alot of money.

Sara, I hope you weren’t upset I am doing it for free. And you know I have
been there to help you when no one else could, that money I advanced your
way earlier this year (or was it even last year?) was from the cannabis
community through me, the same way I am treating addicts is the same way I
saved you from ?disaster?

I was hoping I could send Linette and Terry (my helpers) over to work with
you for a week or so as payback to me, so they could benefit by your
knowledge in exchange for the favour I extended to you.

I understand the idea of people appreciating what they pay for. I like the
freedom in choosing whom to treat (we have many applicants) without the
question of money. I choose the candidates that I want/can/seem likliest to
help with based also on what we can learn from the experience, so its an
education for everyone involved.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find all
you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,

treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are treatment
providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
to get the knowledge and  reputation , but who cares if its done for
nothing
it must be good ,

—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.

That’s very righteous of you.

.:vector:.

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:

One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..

It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively.  ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)

The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.

Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.

The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.

Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.

Marc Emery

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂

Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?

Thank you,

Carla B

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient

24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.

It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?

cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.

That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.

later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that

Pretty typical IMO.

everything was normal throughout the experience.

Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.

When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My

The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.

coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.

Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.

I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.

For sure, IMO.

Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so

I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game.  What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.

He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t

It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).

My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent  hospice for iboga therapy.

You are doing amazing work! Thank You.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:36:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find all
you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,

treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are treatment
providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
to get the knowledge and  reputation , but who cares if its done for nothing
it must be good ,

—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.

That’s very righteous of you.

.:vector:.

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:

One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..

It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively.  ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)

The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.

Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.

The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.

Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.

Marc Emery

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂

Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?

Thank you,

Carla B

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient

24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.

It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?

cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.

That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.

later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that

Pretty typical IMO.

everything was normal throughout the experience.

Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.

When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My

The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.

coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.

Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.

I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.

For sure, IMO.

Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so

I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game.  What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.

He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t

It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).

My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent  hospice for iboga therapy.

You are doing amazing work! Thank You.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:18:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I plan to post all my different experiences treating people. I have
benefitted greatly from contributions on this listserve and have learned
plenty from practioners and addicts (in recovery or otherwise) who post
here.

A very interesting one hour show is at POT-TV.net (Prince of Pot with
Sascha) with my first person I sent for Ibogaine therapy 30 months ago and
her history with addiction. It taught me plenty just doing that show with
her.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update

Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.

That’s very righteous of you.

.:vector:.

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:

One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..

It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively.  ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)

The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.

Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.

The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.

Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.

Marc Emery

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂

Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?

Thank you,

Carla B

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient

24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.

It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?

cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.

That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.

later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that

Pretty typical IMO.

everything was normal throughout the experience.

Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.

When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My

The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.

coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.

Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.

I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.

For sure, IMO.

Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so

I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game.  What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.

He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t

It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).

My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent  hospice for iboga therapy.

You are doing amazing work! Thank You.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:11:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s because Patrick is crazy and ate sheets instead of squares. Patrick’s wisdom from Cult of the Dead Cow

http://cultdeadcow.blogspot.com/2002_08_18_cultdeadcow_archive.html

Today’s Quote from Lord Digital

“Now obviously, if we study the works of Kid Rock, Ph.D., it becomes clear that, “I’m dead as shit, but I ain’t been kilt see,” points out the innate and inherent truth of Dzogchen’s spin control re-wroted into Englishing, to wit, “To transcend the self is to be enlightened by all things.” By which he means to say, “shut up bitch, dose with 10mgs, face yourself, then get back to me. If you want to exit the cycle in this incarnation, you must keep destroying yourself in order to nonexist and re-exist, and move beyond the illusions of duality.” ”
-LD, from the Mindvox list.

All BS aside. What is that like? 4 hits and it scares the crap out of me. Are you still there at 100? I mean do you know that you still exist or are you dead or past dead. I understand that is what you were trying to do, you did it. But what is it like? I don’t think I ever want to conduct that experiment in my life.

To repeat it I did say I was sorry for calling you a sociopath. And I didn’t mean to rag on you Curtis. Hippies have the right to live too. Even if you eat granola and wear sandals.

Marc what you’re doing is right on bro. I had to put that in Curtis.

Really, some of us act like assholes some of the time. But this is one of the two best lists I have ever read. It’s not as good as fd because it contains no information about how to root servers, but it’s nearly as good.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:44:55 -0800 Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
LOL 🙂

There are a lot of very mentally ill people on this list.

None of you seem to care.

It must be very liberating. I hope to be like some of you when I
get
old like all of you over 30 people are 🙂

Patrick I hate you by the way, he’s right. Tripping on demand is
not
fair. I see tracers, visions, come back down. How come you get to
stay
there. And dogg how the %&*@# do you write like that? I can’t even
think when I’m there.

.:vector:.

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Call it postibogaine maybe?

ibeganagain?

Eric would love it!

Ibelongagain, eh.

ibonaughts – ???

ibo-nuts, ya think?

eniagobi, to hard to say

Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.

inward bound, hummm

ibogaine support group, too traditional

anti-AA, that is another group.

iboga bombers, kind of has a ring to it but sounds
like
foot ball on ibogaine – gee, that would be fun.

The Way Out – or was that in.

The great escape, true

Escape into reality, or was it

I Be Over Great Addiction, it is getting late

Ended-abuse, sounds kind of familiar <g>

iboga-way, a street in Gabon or a new candy-bar
(yuck!)

ibo-who, ibo-us, there are folks I would like to
ibo-them.

Ibo-here, no, over there. It is getting late, humm, I
taped Star Trek… there’s a thought.

Just when you need divine inspiration I am so tired I
wouldn’t recognize it if it hit me on the head…

localhost and register it as 127.0.0.1, that should
make for lots of hits. They might get upset…

ibo-got-me-here, well it did.

IBO, just plain I B O.

Patrick, you figure it out, you are good at this
stuff. I don’t feel like eating a couple sheets of
acid to figure it out the way you can (you keep your
acid stored in your body and release it on demand,
that is not fair!).

IBO-WEBO, strange but ibo-web might do.

I Be Of God Again – there is that religion thing

Oh, well, good night.

B-

Bill

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:48:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.

That’s very righteous of you.

.:vector:.

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:

One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..

It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively.  ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)

The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.

Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.

The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.

Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.

Marc Emery

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂

Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?

Thank you,

Carla B

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient

24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.

It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?

cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.

That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.

later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that

Pretty typical IMO.

everything was normal throughout the experience.

Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.

When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My

The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.

coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.

Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.

I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.

For sure, IMO.

Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so

I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game.  What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.

He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t

It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).

My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent  hospice for iboga therapy.

You are doing amazing work! Thank You.

Brett

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:44:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL 🙂

There are a lot of very mentally ill people on this list.

None of you seem to care.

It must be very liberating. I hope to be like some of you when I get
old like all of you over 30 people are 🙂

Patrick I hate you by the way, he’s right. Tripping on demand is not
fair. I see tracers, visions, come back down. How come you get to stay
there. And dogg how the %&*@# do you write like that? I can’t even
think when I’m there.

.:vector:.

— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:

— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Call it postibogaine maybe?

ibeganagain?

Eric would love it!

Ibelongagain, eh.

ibonaughts – ???

ibo-nuts, ya think?

eniagobi, to hard to say

Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.

inward bound, hummm

ibogaine support group, too traditional

anti-AA, that is another group.

iboga bombers, kind of has a ring to it but sounds
like
foot ball on ibogaine – gee, that would be fun.

The Way Out – or was that in.

The great escape, true

Escape into reality, or was it

I Be Over Great Addiction, it is getting late

Ended-abuse, sounds kind of familiar <g>

iboga-way, a street in Gabon or a new candy-bar
(yuck!)

ibo-who, ibo-us, there are folks I would like to
ibo-them.

Ibo-here, no, over there. It is getting late, humm, I
taped Star Trek… there’s a thought.

Just when you need divine inspiration I am so tired I
wouldn’t recognize it if it hit me on the head…

localhost and register it as 127.0.0.1, that should
make for lots of hits. They might get upset…

ibo-got-me-here, well it did.

IBO, just plain I B O.

Patrick, you figure it out, you are good at this
stuff. I don’t feel like eating a couple sheets of
acid to figure it out the way you can (you keep your
acid stored in your body and release it on demand,
that is not fair!).

IBO-WEBO, strange but ibo-web might do.

I Be Of God Again – there is that religion thing

Oh, well, good night.

B-

Bill

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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] What WE’ve Done
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:31:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No one is permitted food for 12 hours previous to administration of iboga.
The brownies were given 15 hours before his test dose( to make him sleep 11
hours, which he did), 17 hours before the full dose, but they synergized
even at that late time.

Now we give Gravol suppository or gravol liquid 30 minutes before gel capped
iboga extract, prevents nausea in first 4 hours, after that, vomit away, I
say. People urinate alot on iboga, and generally the water comes up in the
later vomitting, but by hour 12 they are drinking fluids normally.

Our aftercare lectures include recommendations of banning TV, video games,
junk food, sugars, crap food, and we emphasize exercise, book reading,
activity, interaction with non-drug users only, avoidance of neighbourhoods
where drugs can be found readily and a whole pile more. We are hoping at the
Therapy House we can give them work (chopping wood, exercise programs,
building, gardening) and mind testing recreation (chess, pinnocle, etc.)
for 2 – 5 days to reinvent themselves, at least a little.

Marc Emery

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Marc

Comments

I don’t know if you used brownies but did want to
mention that any food in the stomach will have a big
effect on the iboga (negative). It slows absorption,
sort of lowers how high one would get, takes longer to
hit and spreads it out (to paint a picture). If it
were me, I wouldn’t have anything in my stomach or
anyones that just happened to do ibogaine in front of
me except an anti-emetic, maybe smoke something if
needed/wanted. I am also a little cautious/nervous
about having food in someones stomach who is wacked
out and highly prone vomiting… not a good recipe for
safty IMO. Funny, I use to do that all the time while
driving with no problems, must be getting old and lost
my sense of adventure.

Antiemetics will wear off long before the iboga does.
Once they get sick it is hard to get/keep anything
down them so you may wish to re-medicate them – eg if
they have notoriously weak tummies or find something
rectal/injection you can use if vomiting gets out of
hand – NOT COMPAZINE…

Yes, as Howard said keem em hydrated. Certainly
nothing for several hours after taking the iboga (till
the iboga is “down”). A little water, apple juice
(dilute – iboga does drop blood sugar a tad), ginger
tea… is fine after that.

I forgot who made the comment about urination. Yes,
fluids seem to flow even withoug drinking people can
vomit, increased voiding, phlegm (I had that the first
2 times for months, no longer – and that is before I
quit smoking so it wasn’t that). Ibo is a “detox” in a
very broad sense, cleans the entire body so it seems,
all that poison gotta go somewhere. I did use herbal
detox’s after my first couple treatments, they seemed
to help clean me up/out faster.

Easy with the food, slow at first, stuff like fruit,
REAL fruit juice, oatmeal, apple sauce, chicken soup
is great, anything clean/natural and easy to digest,
no junk (soda, coffee, candy…), nothing heavy/fast
food/greasy/red meat, no, not the KrispyKreem/Dunkin
Donuts either (addicts seem to think these are
health-foods)… But get em eating especially if they
don’t want to get out of bed, they will start to feel
better/recover faster after getting food in them.
Start with a T-spoon if needed, wait, do another…
Don’t take no for an answer.

“My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or
so.”

Yeah, well I have seen lots of em, had a few myself…
Yes they are great stuff,  at “the time” it is like
the whole world and life fell into place, everything
is understood, accepted, forgiven, loved, the path is
clear, lifes problems are all gone, addiction, what
addiction… Take advantage of it while he has it in
his grasp, much of it often passes in time (is
forgotten), some of it never will be forgotten –
depends, some people forget in a couple days… (where
did IT go?), ya never know. ALSO, I have had and known
people to have iboga experiences that they came out,
like “so what”, didn’t happen this time – and OH, were
they/we so very wrong. You cannot judge the results of
the iboga experience by how it seems to go, not
completely. AND, of course, they are all different –
just to make it fun. That said having an epiphany is
not a bad sign <g>.

OT, just went to my traditional AA meeting, gotta see
what I am missin, 2-3 times a year at least! Sorry,
these folks sound like they are holding on for dear
life (lots of fear) and that just ain’t me, I got a
life. Oh well, they were there when I needed them –
that is the good part, they are pretty much always
there no matter where you go. One poor guy with 23
days clean (doin the right stuff) had this hard ass
grab him after the meeting and chastize him for going
to a new-age style/fear-free Christian service on
Sundays  composed mainly of people in recovery – “YOU
NEED AA and NOTHING ELSE”. Like the 2 AA meetings he
is going to every day isn’t good enough, he might be
contaminated… 2 minutes later he is telling the
“newcomer” drinking/drugging war stories – 11 years
sober and just as mean as the day he stopped drinking
and still not knowing it.

It is not AA/12 steps that bother me so much as the
interpretation/people that I have a problem with in
the “rooms”, with their boogy-man disease is going to
get you if you don’t do these things or do those
things.  Yeah, yeah, take what you need… right, it
is just so depressing for me – BUT finally I can go to
meetings and not want to use when I come out. That is
NOT a joke and NOT funny and is the reason I stopped
going.

Brett

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon was throwing up hourly ( at about 9 hours
after iboga ingested) for
a while and any water he took in was coming up, but
he began to rest and
think about the experience about 5 hours ago, with
visualization
diminishing, and the nausea stopped after we gave
him gravol at 6.00 a.m.
this morning. He is up now walking and is going
outside to pet the horses.
Feels tired but good.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still
tripping

In a message dated 11/6/02 3:18:58 PM,
marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:

Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21
hours after ingestion of
4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or
so.

Make sure you get him to drink water.  You don’t
want him getting
dehydrated.
It may be something he doesn’t want to do (drink
water that is) but, it
could be important. I am sure you will receive
comments from various
providers on this matter.

Howard

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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:16:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The entheogarden extract is made up like this:

One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range, though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..

It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000 mg
respectively.  ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)

The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the 8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. , 4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after intial
dose. THen up and active.

Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around. He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.

The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It went
straight to his psyche.

Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’, ‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.

Marc Emery

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping

Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂

Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?

Thank you,

Carla B

— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient

24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.

It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?

cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.

That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.

later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that

Pretty typical IMO.

everything was normal throughout the experience.

Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.

When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My

The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.

coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.

Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.

I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.

For sure, IMO.

Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so

I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game.  What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.

He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t

It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).

My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent  hospice for iboga therapy.

You are doing amazing work! Thank You.

Brett

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:34:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Another name: iet

(short for “I have eaten”)

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:31:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Call it postibogaine maybe?

ibeganagain?

Eric would love it!

Ibelongagain, eh.

ibonaughts – ???

ibo-nuts, ya think?

enia