Ibogaine List Archives – 2003-11

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Philip K Dick spectrum – Physics of the Mysterious
Date: November 30, 2003 at 7:19:41 PM EST
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
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From: slipstream@hipplanet.com

Physics of the Mysterious

I. Introduction

I am going to talk about Time Travel. But, before I get to that most mysterious of subjects, there is some groundwork that must be dealt with first. This will be a series of notes that will appear at this place on the Web, one section at a time. I will add new stuff as often as I can, so that, little by little, there will be more and more until we get into the fun part, so please be patient. It is not a subject that can be rushed. The point is that I have little time. I have my work, I have my research, and also I am looking for avenues that will enable me to change from research in “recognized areas” to the “leading edge new problems” – and this involves seeking out those who are willing to finance the work necessary to develop completely new science and technologies. Thus, I simply cannot devote to these pages as much time as I would otherwise like. Nevertheless I feel it as a kind of an imperative, or duty, to work on this project – even if the tempo of new material arriving on the net will be slow and unequal….

The purpose of writing these notes and making them available through the Web is twofold:

1) I want to provide the non-expert Reader with first- hand information about the present state and possible future development of theoretical physics – mainly in relation to the material provided in the Cassiopaean sessions , but also to make comments on information >from other “mysterious” sources – all through the ages.

2) I want to get as much feed-back as possible concerning all kinds of problems and questions discussed in these notes. I will appreciate all kinds of information, sharing of ideas or just receiving questions concerning topics that are not sufficiently (or not at all) discussed here.

A little about myself: I am a theoretical/mathematical physicist. For those interested in credentials – my data , curriculum vitae and list of publications are available through the Internet, at this website and others.

This being said I owe you, dear Reader, a warning and an explanation. I am considered to be AN EXPERT, but many of my views are not shared by other experts. I believe that my mind is more open than the minds of many of my colleagues. On the other hand, some of these colleagues believe that my mind is TOO open. So I have to hide from them many of my beliefs and not speak to them about a lot of things that I know. In this way I can publish papers in mainstream journals, speak at conferences, organize conferences and have a pretty good reputation. But to preserve this reputation I need to be very careful – just making a hint here and there that what I do publish is not all that I would like to tell….

I think I really need to tell you these things so that you will NOT get an erroneous idea that all physicists are of the same opinion. They are not. University physics is pretty conservative – which is not a bad attitude at all. We do need to be conservative – this distinguishes science from poetry and daydreaming. But, being too conservative has, in the past, been a great barrier and hindrance to scientific revolutions. If being conservative and “scientific” was the only correct approach, then we would have solved all the mysteries of our existence in the past several hundred years of the “age of science!” The truth is: we are only at the beginning.

But, perhaps I AM too open minded…. Perhaps my colleagues are right in being skeptical about anything that is not “established science.” I try to keep an open mind about THAT, as well!

What I want do on these pages is be open-minded and yet conservative. That is, all I write here will be presented in a moderate and conservative mode. Moreover, as you can see for yourself on my other web pages, I am of the opinion that physics must be always based on mathematics – the only reliable tool and a truly universal language. Without math we can talk about many things – but we are just TALKING. It is not yet science! And even if I believe that the domain of physics needs to be essentially extended, that it has to connect with – or even embrace – biology and psychology – that it has to become much less “physical” – it does not mean it needs to become less precise!

But still, no amount of math can take the place of the right inspiration. The study of physics consists in peeling away the layers of the outside appearances of things to reveal their hidden nature and meaning, and very often this inner nature is so deep and hidden that only mathematics can describe it. But, if there is no inspiration as to what might be the objective of the search, the peeling away process might end up being rather like an onion – when the layers are all gone, there is no longer anything there!

The new physics needs to be based on math – to an even greater degree than the old physics. It will be a new math, sure, but it will a rigorous math – a math of equations and algorithms and probabilities – a nonlinear math of complex structures and of transitions between these structures. The math of today is difficult and abstract, and the math of tomorrow might be yet more difficult to grasp, even if our computers will be able to do more and more of the abstract work for us. On the other hand, the new math may be incredibly simple and elegant – this could be the reason it has eluded the understanding of physicists today – that the most abstract of ideas are concealed behind a veil of utter, simple logic. This is why professional training is so important: it gives us tools, it teaches us the rigor of abstract thinking, it teaches us the logic of proving assertions, and it shows us the limits and uncertainties of mathematics itself. As we know from Bertrand Russell and Kurt Goedel: math has its paradoxes too!

2. Physics today.

Let me, first of all, share with you my views on the state of physics today. More on this subject can be found in my lecture Bioelectronics As Seen by a Theoretical Physicist. Even though this lecture was given at a bioelectronics symposium more than ten years ago, nothing really has changed since that time, and part of the predictions given there have already come true, so I am only repeating here much of what I said then. (I plan to post this entire lecture as soon as the translation is complete.)

Physics is what physicists do. And physicists do what they are paid to do. This is one of the reasons why so many of the brightest minds work on a short-time-scale reward basis, doing what is fashionable at a given time. This is the main reason why there is no progress at all in the fundamental areas. The clash between Einstein’s relativity theories – which describe classical gravity at macro-scales, and Bohr-Dirac-Heisenberg-Schroedinger quantum theories, providing phenomenology of micro-phenomena, – this clash is today even more dark and scary than it was seventy years ago.

There is no real progress.

Quantum Theory is supposed to be the greatest invention in science since the beginning of the study of deeper realities. The greatest success of Quantum Theory is considered to be Quantum Field Theory, such as the theory of a quantized electromagnetic field (photons) in interaction with quantized charged matter (electrons). The problem is, this theory is mathematically inconsistent. It involves wishful thinking rather than rigorous science! The only quantum field theories (in four dimensional space-time) that ARE free of contradictions, are so-called trivial ones; that is theories that describe particles that do not interact at all. These theories are mathematical exercises involving particles that are “dead,” that will never form atoms. It seems to be that a universe that is governed by quantum field theories that are free of contradictions would be a dead universe, a universe of no interaction.

One can build a non-trivial quantum field theory, which may even describe something real or interesting, but then it would necessarily contradict Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity; it would be a non-relativistic one.

This is the dilemma. If you want to have both Quantum Field Theory AND Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, then you’ve got a problem.

Thus, nontrivial relativistic quantum field theories in four space-time dimensions are divergent – they lead to infinities, and are mathematically inconsistent. Searching for the cure in fancy formal math (supersymmetry, superstrings, quantum groups) just does not work. New – fundamentally new – ideas are needed. Quantum theory is not understood at all – everyone is trying to “cook” by “changing” the recipes to suit the ingredients they have on hand, and this very often results in “Rock Soup.”

Part of the present-day problem is that Niels Bohr succeeded in molding the minds of so many theoretical physicists into the “no need to understand” mode and this has done a great disservice to the science, the new generations of scientists, and most of all, to humanity. In this day and time, it could be said, that we more desperately need to understand the Order of the Universe than ever before!

Yet there is hope. There are areas, even in the “recognized physics” where NEW is still possible. And, it is possible because more and more physicists understand how little they understand about quantum theory. Physicists are realizing, little by little, that even in such established areas as macroscopic electrodynamics there are problems that need major new rethinking: railguns, exploding wire arcs, sonoluminescence, present us with problems that are not easily answered within the standard paradigm and need, perhaps, a major re-thinking of the foundations.

Some of the problems are that we do not really understand the physics of conductivity and superconductivity. We realize that macroscopic quantum effects are more common than we ever thought. Sure, it is evident to everyone who goes to Circuit City that technology is progressing pretty fast in these areas; but the same cannot be said about our understanding!

What about gravitational physics?

Many of the important questions are still unanswered. The old Mach principle is still a subject of serious debate and we do not know what to do with singularities like black holes. They badly need quantum physics, but, once again, quantum physics becomes inconsistent when married with gravity. So we really do not know where we are.

We do not know if gravity is a fundamental force or, perhaps, it is a collective and composite phenomenon. Some physicists want to explain electromagnetism in terms of gravity. Others want to derive gravity >from electromagnetism.

There is a lot of talk about antigravity or gravity shielding at the most fundamental levels and perhaps “antigravity” or gravity shielding is a real effect? No one can agree, and little progress is being made except to disagree. You would be amazed at the battles that rage in the ivory towers of academia!

We do not even know (at least not from textbooks or physics journals) if antimatter is attracted or repelled by matter. Perhaps tachyons – particles travelling faster than light – do exist? Perhaps space-time can have causal loops and telephoning into the past is possible? Perhaps quantum tunneling phenomena involves sending information faster than light? Perhaps magnetic monopoles exist and play an important role in biological systems? Or, perhaps, the fifth dimension is more than just a mathematical device of providing a unified description of gravity and electromagnetism?

Who knows?

All these topics ARE discussed in professional journals, but with no conclusion, no agreement, no cigar.

Too much research is in “safe” areas – producing nothing but “papers.” The truth is that, Physicists, to make their living, must produce papers, must be “quoted;” and so they quote each other; colleagues quote colleagues and produce graduate students who quote their masters, after which they become masters, quoting each other, and producing graduate students who quote them, in an endless cycle of life in the aforementioned ivory towers.

And this is not something unique in physics. Not at all! It is true in other fields of study, too. But in physics the results are really bad: there has been no apparent progress in our understanding of Nature for seventy long years…. And nature REALLY needs to be understood, because things are getting a little out of hand out there in the “real” world.

Well, perhaps it is not THAT bad!

We all know that there is a lot of progress in certain areas, especially in technology based on quantum physics. We also know that certain areas are so sensitive that any progress therein is so closely monitored that it hardly finds its way to journal pages. And also, it is the physicists who have more open minds than others that move to new, interdisciplinary, areas of research, putting pieces of the puzzle together, blazing some isolated new trails for others. So, perhaps, after all, it is not THAT bad?

Well, I think it is bad enough. But, as Bertrand Russell pointed out ,

“Meantime, the world in which we exist has other aims. But it will pass away, burned up in the fire of its hot passions: and from its ashes will spring a new and younger world, full of fresh hope, with the light of morning in its eyes.”

3. “We are you in the future”

This is what “they” declare : that “they” – The Cassiopaeans – 6th density Unified Thought Form Beings of Light – are us in the future. What a bizarre concept. Or is it?

Is that possible? Can such a statement find a place in accepted theories? Or it is in an evident contradiction with everything that we – that is, physicists – know about Nature and its laws?

Putting aside for the moment the issue of whether existence in a pure state of consciousness is possible, is travelling in time possible, even if only in theory? Is sending and receiving information from the future or sending information into the past allowed by our present theories of relativity and quantum mechanics? If information can be sent, does this also imply that physical matter can be “sent,” via some sort of TransDimensional Remolecularization? And if so what are the laws, what are the restrictions? What are the means?

Well, frankly speaking, we do not know, but we may have a clue. Kurt Goedel, after he became famous for his work on foundations of mathematics, went on to study the Einstein general theory of relativity and made an important contribution to physics: he discovered a class of otherwise reasonable cosmological solutions of Einstein equations – except for one point: they contained causal loops!

At first these Causal Loops were dismissed by relativists as being “too crazy”. The arguments against these model universes even became rather personal, commenting upon the state of mind of the inventor! (A not terribly unusual phenomenon in the heated debates within so-called “ivory towers” of academia.)

A “Causal Loop” means the same thing as “Time Loop.” It can be described as going into the future and ending up where you started at the original time and place. It is called “Causal” because, in Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, Time is a relative concept and different observers can experience Time differently, so the term “causal” is used to avoid using the term “time.”

But, little by little, it was realized that causal – or Time – loops CAN appear in other solutions of Einstein equations as well – usually they correspond to some kind of “rotation” of the universe.

Causal loops make time travel not only possible, but probable. But then, causal loops lead to unacceptable logical paradoxes, and physics does not like such paradoxes at all – they are a serious problem!

But, the subject of communicating with the past or receiving information from the future IS being discussed in physics even in terms of the flat, not-curved-at-all space-time of Lorentz and Minkowski. Hypothetical faster-than-light particles – tachyons – can serve as the communication means. They make an “anti-telephone” – a telephone into the past – possible.

But do tachyons exist? Or CAN they exist?

Well, that is still a question that has not been answered definitively for some.

And, the truth is that paradoxes must never be ignored. They always indicate that some important lesson is to be learned; that some essential improvement or change is necessary. The same holds true for the paradoxes involved in the idea of receiving information from the future. We cannot simply go back into Saturday and tell ourselves the winning lottery numbers of Sunday. If this were possible, then it should also be possible for some future, future, self to tell a future self NOT to tell! Thus we have a paradox: we, in the future, have intervened into the past making our communication from the future impossible!

A paradox: if we communicated, we have not communicated, and if we do not communicate, then we have communicated! Impossible in a linear, non-branching universe!

Is there a possible escape from the paradox, an escape that leaves a door open, even if only a little – for our anti-telephone?

Indeed, there is, and not just one, but several ways out.

First of all – the evident paradox disappears if we admit the possibility that the communication channels are inherently noisy; that is a normal situation when we deal with quantum phenomena. So, if the communication into the past is a quantum effect – we are saved from evident paradoxes. Quantum Theory can be useful!

Sending a signal into the past, we are never 100% sure if the message will be delivered without distortion. And conversely, receiving info >from the future we are never 100% sure if this comes from an authentic broadcast or is a spontaneous and random creation of the receiving end. If this is the case, and if certain quantitative, information – that is, theoretic relations between receiving and transmitting ends are secured to hold – then there are no more paradoxes even with reasonably efficient information channels.

In other words: there CAN be broadcasts from the future to the past, but there will be few “receivers,” and of those few, even fewer that are properly tuned. And even those that are properly tuned may be subject to “static.” Even if there is no static, those receivers that can receive pure information will experience the static of “non-belief” and distortion after the fact.

There is also another aspect of such an information transfer which is that the probabilities involved are connected with a CHOICE EVENT; with the choosing of one among many possible futures.

It may happen that branching of the universe corresponds to each such event. Branching of the universe into an infinite tree of decisions has been discussed within quantum measurement theory – it even has the name of “Many Worlds interpretation of quantum theory.”

Two of the well-known physicists who consider the many worlds interpretation more than just an exercise in theorizing are John Archibald Wheeler and David Deutsch and you may wish to obtain their books for a deeper understanding.

The Many Worlds Interpretation has one serious weakness: it has no built in algorithm for providing the timing of the branchings. Thus it is a certain framework rather than a complete theory.

There is, however, a theory that fills in this gap in the Many Worlds Interpretation – and this theory I know quite well, and in fact I know it better than most others for the simple reason that I developed it in collaboration with Philippe Blanchard (University of Bielefeld ) in the last six or so years as an integral part of the Quantum Future Project. It is called Event Enhanced Quantum Theory (EEQT for short notation). (A complete list of references and much more info on this subject can be found on my “Quantum Future ” project page).

The fact that our generally accepted theories of the present do not prevent us from thinking that time travel is, perhaps, possible, does not necessarily imply that we do know how to build the time machine!

On the other hand, it is perhaps possible that the time machine already exists and is in use, even if we do not understand the principle of its work, because it goes much too far beyond our present theoretical and conceptual framework. It is also possible that some of the machines we think are serving a totally different purpose do, in fact, act as time machines. Many things are possible…

Now, back to superluminal communication, or “channelling” in general and the Cassiopaeans in particular: the fact that sending information into the past is possible does not necessarily imply that any information that pretends to be sent from the future is such indeed!

But, if we generally accept that extraterrestrial life is possible, and we use all of our knowledge and resources to search for life beyond our Earth, then we also need to include the understanding that receiving information from the future is equally possible. With this perspective, science should search for any traces of such information.

But, what kind of information channels are to be monitored in search of such broadcasts? What kind of antenna arrays do we need? How must we direct them into a particular “future time”? Say, into the year 3000? Or 30,000? Or 300,001?

My answer is: nothing like that is necessary. All that we need we already have, namely OUR MINDS.

And indeed, assuming that the knowledge and technology of the future is (or CAN BE) much more advanced than ours, then it is only natural that any broadcast from the future will be addressed directly into the mind.

Even today there are techniques of acting directly on our minds. They are not always used for our benefit; nevertheless they do exist. But if communications from the future are possible, why don’t we receive these broadcasts on a daily basis? If our minds can serve as receivers, then why aren’t we all aware of the transmissions?

This is a legitimate question and we will address it somewhat later as there is a more urgent topic to be addressed first: what PHYSICS has to say about MIND?

If You, the Reader, have your own point of view that supports or contradicts the view presented below – please let me know it. I do welcome any comment or suggestion…. So, feel free and e-mail me at: ark@cassiopaea.org .

4. Mind and Physics

Isn’t “mind” a domain of philosophy, psychology and cognitive sciences?

Or, is mind just a function of a brain; and isn’t the brain just a computing device?

There is no easy answer. There are a lot of interesting theories; a lot of controversy; a lot of “true believers” in this or that idea. There are “new age” physics books, Penrose bestsellers, Sarfatti’s site on the internet, mail-lists and newsgroups discussing the subjects of MIND and CONSCIOUSNESS and so on.

I want to give here my own small perspective, based on my own research, my own experiences, my own conclusions.

First of all: why does it seem to me that I am qualified to discuss the subject?

The answer is pretty simple. The fact is, all my work on EEQT was directed toward one end: to make Quantum Theory as OBJECTIVE as possible; to eliminate any trace of “observer” from its (that is: Quantum Theory) dictionary; to formulate – reformulate – Quantum Theory in such a way that “observers” and “observables” and even “measurement” would be replaced by precise and totally objective concepts. I wanted to eliminate “Mind” entirely from the equation.

By doing this I was really pursuing John Bell’s programme – a programme that he did not have enough time to carry out to a conclusion due to his untimely death – a crusade to discover an exact mathematical formulation describing both micro and macro phenomena so as to produce either a real synthesis of quantum and relativity theories, or to be able to construct a viable alternative to one or both of them. You might want to have a look at his published book Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Theory, and also his papers Against Measurement and Towards exact quantum mechanics.

Our theory, EEQT, was presented at the conference “Quantum Theory Without Observers”, held in Bielefeld, Germany, in July 1995. (Those of you who wish to go deeper can read a review of this subject >from the point of view of Bohmian Mechanics: the recent paper by Sheldon Goldstein at Rutgers.) Our presentation was accompanied by a computer simulation of a run of a “measuring device” coupled to an individual quantum system. Our Event Generating Algorithm produced a sequence of “clicks” that were accompanying “quantum jumps” – without any intervention of an “observer”. Moreover, the standard “quantum measurement postulates” can be derived from EEQT’s “objective algorithm.” In our papers – see the bibliography – we have stressed repeatedly that “mind” and “consciousness” and “observer” are not needed by quantum theory. Quantum physics can do without these concepts!

So, you see, I AM qualified to discuss the problems of mind and consciousness and their importance to physics – because I spent years trying to get rid of them!

Did I succeed?

Yes and no. My views started to shift after having an extensive discussion with H.P. Stapp. (You can easily find links to some of his papers available through the internet via the Sarfatti link , but you can also try to read his other papers, especially his most recent paper – for the X-th Max Born Symposium “Quantum Future” that we (Philippe and myself) organized, in Wroclaw September, 1997 – the paper is available from his site at LBNL. Stapp has published a book Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics – a collection of his papers on the subject.)

In a long series of e-mails, I tried to convince him that quantum theory does not need “mind” or “observer” – at least not any more than any other branch of physics. He insisted that it is MIND that is responsible for all that HAPPENS. It is MIND that is responsible for each and every final act of reduction of the “wave packet,” for each and every “event,” for each and every “quantum jump.” And he pointed out the weakest place in our new quantum measurement theory (EEQT), namely: our theory worked well at the “phenomenological level” but could not aspire to become a “fundamental theory.” Indeed, our theory assumed that a part of the world is “non-quantum,” a part of the world had to remain “classical;” and it was this part that was surely related to the measuring device, to “perception,” to “mind.”

We could not find anything else in all of physics that would have to remain classical, unquantized.

So, willy-nilly, I started to study Stapp’s papers again – but now with a more positive attitude; namely, with the idea of applying the powerful mathematical machinery of EEQT to the Mind-Matter interface. But this is another story; it is part of the current Quantum Future Project.

Speaking of the “Mind,” we – physicists – do not know where or how to put it into our equations. Some of us deny that such a necessity exists. Klaus Hepp at ETH Zurich, for instance – one of the best mathematical physicists some twenty years ago – became totally engaged in brain research. He believes neurophysiology has a beautiful and promising future and, after we learn more and more about the functioning of the nervous system, the necessity of using the term “mind” will become less and less requisite – the understanding of the workings of the physical structure will obviate the necessity for looking outside physiology for an abstract, non-physical “entity.”

On the other hand, Nobel Laureate John Eccles believed that there is more than just one “physical world”. In Self and its Brain, co-authored by Karl Popper, we find an extensive discussion of three different WORLDS; only one of them being the physical world that is studied by physics. The idea of the three different worlds, World I, II and III – belongs to Popper rather than Eccles, but Eccles is sympathetic to the idea, and the title of his other little book, ” How the Self Controls its Brain ” is suggestive by itself. The book reproduces his paper, co-authored with a German physicist, F. Beck, Quantum Aspects of Brain Activity and the Role of Consciousness . Well, in my own opinion the paper is rather speculative and inconclusive, but its very existence gives us some idea about the debates in which physicists and neurologists (but also the artificial intelligence community) are engaged about “mind,” and whether it is a physical artifact or a pre-existent state of consciousness.

Much of this discussion can also be found on the internet – you may like to visit quantum-d archives . This list, VERY active at one time, has become quiet lately. But it has seen lot of hot discussions – especially concerning the Penrose-Hameroff ideas about making gravity and microtubules responsible for all the fantastic deeds of the consciousness.

A lot can be said about this Penrose-Hameroff theory. It has been criticized by many, and some of this critique is expected to appear in the proceedings of the “Quantum Future” symposium mentioned above . It is not my intention to discuss this topic here as it would become too ponderous and lengthy.

Let me just say this: I do believe that gravity is the most fundamental of all interactions; I do believe that it is related to consciousness and quantum phenomena, but I do not think that the Penrose-Hameroff theory is a step forward. Even so, I enjoy reading the books by Roger Penrose. I enjoy them and – at the same time – they induce sad feelings in my heart… How is it possible that having such bright minds, such nice ideas – we understand so little, the progress of our understanding is so slow – if there is any progress at all!

Summing up: even if we are not yet 100% sure that mind and consciousness must be included into a consistent scheme of quantum theory, my own work toward elimination of these concepts has shown me, at least, the limitations of “pure physical” theories.

Thus, at present, I am searching for ways to integrate mind and consciousness into physics – be it on the basis of an extended EEQT algorithm, or some other, more radical approach.

We need now to return to our question: if communications from the future are possible, why don’t we receive these broadcasts on a daily basis?

If our minds can serve as receivers, then why aren’t we all aware of the transmissions?

I think that the answer has to do with multiple realities and branching universes, and perhaps any civilization which would receive messages from the future on a daily basis has ceased to exist because communication through time is a very dangerous game. You produce paradoxes and these paradoxes remove the paradoxical universes from the repository of possible universes; if you create a universe with paradoxes, it destroys itself either completely or partially. Perhaps just intelligence is removed from this universe because it is intelligence that creates paradox. Perhaps we are very fortunate that even if we can receive some of these messages from the future, we still continue to exist.

Suppose our civilization were to advance to the point where everyone can communicate with themselves in the past; they have a computer with a special program and peripheral device that does this. It becomes the latest fad: everyone is communicating with themselves in the past to warn of dangers or upcoming calamities or bad choices, or to give lottery numbers or winning horses. But, what is seen as a “bad choice” or “calamity” for one, could be seen to be a “good event” or “benefit” to someone else!

So, the next step would be that “hackers” would begin to break into the systems and send false communications into the past to deliberately create bad choices and calamities for some in order to produce benefits for themselves or others.

Then, the first individual would see that false information has been sent and would go into their system and go back even earlier to warn themselves that false information was going to be sent back by an “imposter” and how to tell that it was false.

Then the hacker would see this, and go back in time to an even earlier moment and give false information that someone was going to send false information (that was really true) that false information (that was really false) was going to be sent, thereby confusing the issue.

This process could go on endlessly with constant and repeated communications into the past, one contradicting the other, one signal cancelling out the other, with the result that it would be exactly the same as if there were NO communication into the past!

There is, also, the very interesting possiblity that the above scenario IS exactly what is taking place in our world.

It is also possible that, whenever a civilization comes to the point that it can manipulate the past and thereby change the present, it would most probably destroy itself, and probably its “branch” of the universe, unless there comes a cataclysmic event before this happens which would act as a kind of “control system” or way of reducing the technological possibilities to zero again, thus obviating the potentials of universal chaos. In this way, cataclysmic events could be a sort of preventive or pre-emptive strike against such manipulations, and may, in fact, be the result of engineered actions of benevolent selves in the future who see the dangers of communicating with ourselves in the past!

So, the probability is this: if there IS communication from the future, it MAY, in fact, be constantly received by each and every one of us as an ongoing barrage of lies mixed with truth. Thus, the problem becomes more than just “tuning” to a narrow band signal, because clearly the hackers can imitate the signal and have become VERY clever in delivering their lies disguised as “warm and fuzzy” truths; the problem becomes an altogether different proposition of believing nothing and ACTING as though EVERYTHING is misleading, gathering data from all quarters, and then making the most INFORMED choice possible with full realization that it may be in error!

What is important here is this: we can’t prevent hackers from hacking. But, what we can do is make every effort to prevent them from hacking into OUR systems by erecting barriers of knowledge and awareness. Hackers are always looking for an “easy hack,” (except for those few who really LIKE a challenge), and will back away as you make your system more and more secure.

How do you make your computer (or yourself) immune to hackers?

It is never 100% secure, but if all preventative measures are taken, and we constantly observe for the signs of hackers – system disruption, loss of “memory,” or energy, damaged files, things that don’t “fit,” that are “out of context,” – we can reduce the possiblity of hacking. But, we can only do this if we are AWARE of hackers; if we KNOW that they will attempt to break into our system in the guise of a “normal” file, or even an operating system or program that promises to “organize” our data for greater efficiency and ease of function or “user friendliness,” while at the same time, acting as a massive drain on our energy and resources – RAM and hard drive.

As a humorous sidenote: we could think of Windows Operating system as the “ultimate hacker from the future” who, disguised as a sheep, is a wolf devouring our hard disk and RAM, and sending our files to God only knows where every time we connect via the internet!

And of course, there are viruses. Whenever we insert a floppy disk or CD into our computer, we risk infection by virii which can, slowly or rapidly, distort or destroy ALL the information on our computer, prevent ANY peripheral functions, and even “wipe” the hard disk of all files to replace them with endless replications of the viral nonsense.

The human analogy to this is the many religions and “belief” systems that have been “programmed” into our cultures, and our very lives, via endless “Prophet/God” programs, replacing, bit by bit, our own thinking with the “dogma and doctrines of the faith.”

Enough of the computer analogies. I think that the reader can imagine any number of variations on the theme and come to an understanding of how vulnerable we are to “disinformation” in the guise of truth from either the future, the past, or the present.

Before entering into the next subject – the Anthropic Principle and its ramification – let me first make some comments concerning some peculiar recent developments on my personal plane. I want to talk about these things, because they bear a direct relation to these pages.

In 1998 I removed all my web pages, mostly dealing with the Quantum Future project, from the web server at my home institution .

Why?

Because a colleague and director of the institute there decided that I must not link my Quantum Future pages to this particular subject that you are reading now.

For what reason?

Let me quote him: “You may have your personal views on quantum mechanics, but your personal views concerning the question of who or what are the Cassiopaeans should not be found on the Institute’s page, similar to your personal views concerning Snow White.”

He even forbade placing any – even indirect – link to related subjects!

I wrote him back that “my personal view on quantum theory is such that one must not ignore the question that, if transmissions from the future are possible, can the Cassiopaean transmissions be investigated >from this point of view?”

Apparently the very thought about time loops and their possible consequences scares SOME “serious scientists” to death; their brains start to shake like jelly; they simply refuse to even discuss the problem; they ban it without any discussion.

Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov, a Russian physicist who spent many years in the Siberian Gulag wrote: “Intellectual freedom is essential to human society… Freedom of thought is the only guarantee against an infection of people by mass myths, which, in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues, can be transformed into bloody dictatorships.” (Progress, Coexistence, and Intellectual Freedom; secretly circulated in Moscow, 1968, tr. N.Y. Times, July 22, 1968)

Fortunately SOME physicists are open-minded. John Bell, David Deutsch, Henry Stapp, John Archibald Wheeler, Brian Josephson, Roger Penrose, all of them have put forward, at some point in time, their brilliant ideas and have blazed the trail for others.

5. Anthropic Principle

A Physics News service to which I subscribe brought the following:

The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News

Number 360 February 25, 1998 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY. An anthropic argument is one which suggests that certain physical conditions, such as the oxygen content of the atmosphere or the Earth’s distance from the Sun, are not inadvertently beneficial to intelligent life, but might actually be especially fine-tuned for life. This viewpoint has been slow to gain acceptance among scientists because anthropic logic seems to defy the arrow of time: was not the universe here long before man evolved? Yes, but there may be more than one universe (as some theories predict), or the universe we are in may have many domains, each with different physical parameters. And we would, according to these arguments, find ourselves in that domain that had just the right physics ingredients, just as cold-blooded reptiles thrive only in warm climates. Physicists at the Bartol Research Institute at the University of Delaware (contact Stephen Barr, 302-831-6883) and the University of Massachusetts (John Donoghue, 413-545- 1940) consider what the anthropic principle has to say not about atmospheric oxygen and Earth orbit, but about parameters of even more fundamental importance: the mass of the Higgs boson (the hypothetical particle that endows all other particles with mass), the cosmological constant (essentially the energy density of the universal vacuum), and the Planck mass (the energy scale—thought to prevail in the very early universe—associated with gravity, and the energy at which all known physical forces would have been equivalent). (V. Agrawal et al., Physical Review Letters, 2 March 1998.)
So, you see, physicists are discussing seriously what is called the “anthropic principle”… At least some physicists. Some others, (like my colleague JL, mentioned above), try to use whatever power they still have to ban such discussions. History repeats itself … nihil novi under the sun.

But back to physics: we are on the Internet now, and we are free to discuss ALL implications of ALL things, (Well… up to a point, of course because, being responsible, we bear in mind that although “Knowledge Protects, Ignorance Endangers, ” knowledge can also be used for evil purposes.)

I am not quite sure who invented the “anthropic principle” or who coined the term. I suspect it all started with Wheeler and Dyson. If you are interested in the subject, there is a book by Barrow and Tippler, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle . There is also a book by a well known relativist and cosmologist George Ellis, Before the Beginning . George Ellis is a well known relativist and cosmologist, past president of the International Society for General Relativity and Gravitation, a well known co-author (with Stephen Hawking) of “The Large Scale Structure of Space Time, ” and Fellow of the University of Cape Town. You can also visit his home page at the Mathematics Department of UCT.

In Before the Beginning , Ellis discusses the “fine tuning” of the physical parameters of “our” universe, analyzes the apparent “coincidences” (if one of the several important parameters had a value even slightly different from the actual one, then life in such a universe would be impossible), and comes to the conclusion that there are five possible explanations for these parameters to be conducive to life: (for more about anthropic principle in general, and about George Ellis in particular see the files ellis.html , anthcoi.html , anthro8.html at Al Schroeder site.)

1: Pure chance.

2: Greater probability: despite the seeming unliklihood of such coincidences, for reasons unexplained, we would tend towards that state.

3. Logical necessity. Only one set of laws is consistent in nature.

4. An ensemble theory…which would have many universes, either in time, space, or different space-time continuums, most of them lifeless, and we are just the luck of the draw.

5. Or an intelligent Creator.

He feels he cannot a priori neglect that last as a possible explanation.

This material on the subject of the anthropic principle has been discussed at such length so that you will know that there IS a very deep issue in the study of physics which has not been solved no matter how many ways have been tried in approaching it. Now, once we know there IS some problem, once we know some physicists do feel somewhat uneasy without admitting it, let us see if we can add something new to all this discussion. Let us see how the problem relates to OUR problem, namely to the possible existence of – quoting from Cassiopaeans – “us in the future;” to the problems of time loops, time travel, branching universes and complexity of creation…

First of all I do not think that the “fine tuning” of physical parameters has anything to do with “an intelligent Creator.” I do know that there are some – even many – people trying to use the facts of physics to “prove the existence of God.” I do not think it is a good thing to do. It does no good – neither to Physics nor to God – the main reason being that, while Physics deals with, or at least tries to deal with, what is outside of us, the question of God is our internal question – to which the answer should be sought inside us. (If you are interested in my opinion on this subject, you can read the exchange that I had, on this subject, with Tom Elliot from Anchorage, Alaska).

Let us discuss the first four possibilities listed above.

“Pure chance” we can discard as being no explanation at all: the lazy way out. The “probabilities” in question are so small that we can safely discard the “pure chance” hypothesis.

The next in order: “greater probability despite the seeming unliklihood…”

Yes, indeed, there is such a possibility. Assigning probabilities is a tricky business. Thus it MAY happen that an event which, at present, seems to us be very unlikely, after the discovery of one new fact or relation that we were not aware of before, becomes not only likely, but also unavoidable.

Can it be the case with “fine tuning” of physical constants and parameters of our universe? In principle, YES, it can be so…. For instance if, and ONLY if, explanation 5 is the correct one! Thus, it is a circular argument.

Thus, let us move to the next possibility: “logical necessity.”

Again, this is no explanation all. Indeed, why there should be any “logic” in the universe? The very fact that there ARE any laws of nature, the very fact that there IS logic itself, is already a puzzle.

And so, what remains is the “ensemble theory” – there are many universes.

We are just in one of them. Some of them are lifeless, some others are short-lived ones; no one will ever wonder about them, because they will never create any form of intelligence. And there are also some endowed with life forms – all kinds of life, the possibilities being endless.

This does look like a good start for an “explanation”. Or better, as a good start for a path full of adventures and leading we-have-no-idea where.

And this is the path we have to travel. This path will force us to think in new categories; it will force us to open our minds to new ways of thinking – about ourselves, in particular, and about life in general.

Just to give a moderate example of where such a concept can lead, let me quote from ” Life in the universe ” by Peter Dunsby:

“[In a paper by Ellis and Brundrit (1979) they have developed] some of the consequences of spatially homogeneous universes with infinite spatial sections (as in the usual low density and critical density universe models). In any such universe, in a large enough volume not only is the probability of life unity, but the probability of existence of an identical being to each of us is also unity (because the genetic code is a finite code). But there are an infinity of such volumes in an infinite universe, so we should then each have an infinite set of identical twins – leading to the further implication that in this infinite set there should be some of our twins with arbitrarily close histories to ours …. and so on. The point here is that we often glibly talk about spatially infinite universe models, without really taking in the implications of that situation. This example makes clear how strange they can be.”

And this excerpt makes clear how strange the science of physics can be!

6. Extraterrestrial Life

So, is there extraterrestrial life in the Universe? Let us first quote from the “official sources.”

NASA declares:

(Note: as of August 11, 1999 this page is not accessible any longer, even if there is still a link.) “What is the U.S. government doing to investigate UFOs “; from NASA FAQ’s page

“No branch of the United States Government is currently involved with responsibility for investigations into the possibility of alien life on other planets or for investigating Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO’s). The U.S. Air Force (USAF) and NASA have had intermittent, independent investigations of the possibility of alien life on other planets; however, none of these has produced factual evidence that life exists on other planets, nor that UFO’s are related to aliens.

“Under Project Blue Book (1947 to 1969), the Air Force investigated UFO’s; then in 1977, NASA was asked to examine the possibility of resuming UFO investigations. After studying all of the facts available, it was determined that nothing would be gained by further investigation, since there was an absence of tangible evidence.

“In October 1992, NASA was directed by Congress to begin a detailed search for artificial radio signals from other civilizations under the NASA Towards Other Planetary Systems (TOPS)/High Resolution Microwave Survey (HRMS) program (also known as the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence project). Congress directed NASA to end this project in October 1993, citing pressures on the US Federal budget. The HRMS did not detect any confirmed signal before it was stopped. However, similar work will continue in a more limited manner through efforts of private groups and through academic institutions. The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Institute (SETI Institute) in Mountain View, CA, effectively replaced the Government project, borrowing the signal processing system from NASA. The SETI Institute is a nonprofit corporation conducting research in a number of fields including all science and technology aspects of astronomy and planetary sciences, chemical evolution, the origin of life, biological evolution, and cultural evolution.”

SETI states:

“Over the last half-century, scientists have developed a theory of cosmic evolution that predicts that life is a natural phenomenon likely to develop on planets with suitable environmental conditions. Scientific evidence shows that life arose on Earth relatively quickly, suggesting that life will occur on similar planets orbiting sun-like stars. With the recent discoveries of extra-solar planetary systems, and the suggestive evidence that life may once have existed on Mars, this scenario appears even more likely.

“Additionally, one should keep in mind that we are only one planet around a very ordinary star. There are roughly 400 billion other stars in our Galaxy, and nearly 100 billion other galaxies. It would be extraordinary if we were the only thinking beings in all these enormous realms.”(…)

“The Drake Equation , originally developed as an agenda for a 1961 scientific meeting, provides a way of estimating the number of intelligent civilizations existing in our galaxy that might be broadcasting signals. Among the factors considered are the number of sun-like stars in our galaxy, the fraction of habitable planets supporting communicating civilizations, etc. When these various factors are multiplied together, one can compute N, the number of transmitting civilizations. Unfortunately, many of the factors are only poorly known, so estimates of N range from one (we are alone in the Galaxy) to thousands or even millions.”

At the same time NASA lists ” Some Intriguing Emerging Physics “:

“Science and technology are continuing to evolve. In just the last few years, there have been new, intriguing developments in the scientific literature. Although it is still too soon to know whether any of these developments can lead to the desired propulsion breakthroughs, they do provide new clues that did not exist just a few short years ago. A snapshot of just some of the possibilities is listed below:

1988; Morris and Thorne: Theory and assessments for using wormholes for faster-than-light space travel.

1988; Herbert: Book outlining the loopholes in physics that suggest that faster-than-light travel may be possible.

1989; Puthoff: Theory extending Sakharov’s 1968 work to suggest that gravity is a consequential effect of the vacuum electromagnetic zero point fluctuations.

1992; Podkletnov and Nieminen: Report of superconductor experiments with anomalous results — evidence of a possible gravity shielding effect.

1994; Haisch, Rueda, and Puthoff: Theory suggesting that inertia is a consequential effect of the vacuum electromagnetic zero point fluctuations.

1994; Alcubierre: Theory for a faster-than-light “warp drive” consistent with general relativity.

1996; Eberlein: Theory suggesting that the laboratory observed effect of sonoluminescence is extraction of virtual photons from the electromagnetic zero point fluctuations.”

So, what we learn from these official sources is not much.

Perhaps extraterrestrial life exists, but it is not the business of NASA.

Perhaps time loops do exist, and NASA is even looking into the theories that deal with creating special space-time configurations (warp-drive, wormholes, tachyonic and negative matter generated gravity effects), but NASA is interested in these theories only from the point of view of building new efficient propulsion systems.

Is there anybody interested in other possible consequences of the new physics?

Perhaps. Perhaps these are privately funded organizations (like SETI). Perhaps, (and almost certainly), other government agencies that can finance more risky programs, with other goals in mind than just space travel.

And here we come to the point where I have to share with you my own position – position of an open-minded theoretical physicist. I consider myself open-minded enough to listen to everybody, but independent enough to make my own final judgements. After surfing through the net I have found that some of my views have already been spelled out by a somewhat kindred soul: the “theatrical physicist” (as he used to call himself), Jack Sarfatti. I share with him many of the same interests; we have some common friends and heroes whom we like to quote (David Bohm, David Deutsch, David Finkelstein, Henry Stapp), but apparently he is much more active in the business of public relations while I spend all my time on working and on active research.

So, what is my point of view?

First of all it seems to me, and in fact I am even pretty sure, that what we know, our present “science,” is not even the tip of the iceberg of what might be known or maybe even what IS known in certain circles. We know very little and we understand even less. We are so much constrained in our perception, our thinking abilities, that we can see and process only one side of a multi-faceted reality; and even so, with a lot of distortion. Some of our concepts are pretty good and objective, some others are of poor quality and subjective. But even those that are sound and objective (like atoms, light, energy), even these are grasped by us only partially, with much more veiled from us due, it seems, to our own genetic restriction.

So, I think that Reality is multi-faceted and multi-leveled and we are consciously experiencing only one (or a few) of the existing levels and/or facets. The multi-leveled and multi-faceted Realit includes: many worlds, many realms, parallel and perpendicular universes, higher dimensions, higher levels of intelligence and of perception, and very likely a consciousness of which we cannot even conceive.

Some of these concepts have already been integrated into theoretical physics (many worlds, parallel universes, higher dimensions), and can be studied – at least theoretically – with mathematical rigor; while those dealing with mind, consciousness, intelligence, are yet to be integrated. Once that is done, once we admit and realize that that material existence is not all that can be thought of and dealt with using mathematical rigor – new vistas, new hopes and new goals will appear on the horizon. And by doing this, WE will take charge of the evolutionary development of life. BY doing this we will choose to obey our own call from the future. By doing this we will make real what is now only virtual.

I believe that the Universe has Purpose, that it is much like a computer program of great complexity, and that “we” – the IGUS-es – have a role in its evolution. For a while our role can be described simply as “debugging units.” In short, my present answer to the question “why are we here?” reads: DEBUGGING THE UNIVERSE.

Universes without life, without feedback from the “observers” have only virtual existence, their future is closed; while “our” future, as well as the future of “our universe,” is in my opinion, to large extent, OPEN.

The question of existence of other forms of life is, in particular, one of these tricky questions whose answers are “open”. YOU, the Reader, can choose to live in a universe with a “no” answer, but you can also choose to live in a “yes” universe.

I am not saying the choice is going to be easy, or possible at all. Every choice needs an effort. The more important the choice, the more effort it needs. Without making this effort we are simply machines, and then the choices are being made for us – either by pure chance or by others.

So, what I am saying here relates, to some extent, to some of the ideas expanded in Jung’s ” Flying Saucers. A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies .” Let me quote from an article by John Fraim :

‘ Jung concluded that “news affirming the existence of UFOs is welcome, but that skepticism seems to be undesirable. . .to believe that UFOs are real suits the opinion, whereas disbelief is to be discouraged…. There is a tendency all over the world to believe in saucers and to want them to be real, unconsciously helped along by a press that otherwise has no sympathy with the phenomenon.” Jung then asked a most incisive question: “Why should it be more desirable for saucers to exist than not?”

‘For Jung, the “desirability” of UFO existence relates to a psychic need and is connected with signaling the end of one era and the beginning of another. It was not a new phenomenon but, rather, one that manifested the change of archetypes that constellate around the end of one age and the beginning of another. As he wrote in the introduction to Flying Saucers: “It is not presumption that drives me, but my conscience as a psychiatrist that bids spare those few who will fulfill my duty and prepare those few which are in accord with the end of an era.”

‘Jung found precedence for these archetypal harbingers of change in preceding periods of history that involved the collective psyche: As we know from ancient Egyptian history, there are manifestations of psychic changes which always appear at the end of one Platonic month and at the beginning of another. Apparently they are changes in the constellations of psychic dominants, of the archetypes, or “gods” as they used to be called, which bring about, or accompany, long-lasting transformation of the collective psyche.

‘The changes in archetypes seem to have a connection to major movements in astrological houses. “This transformation, ” noted Jung, “started in the historical era and left its traces first in the passing of the aeon of Taurus into that of Aries, and then of Aries into Pisces, whose beginning coincides with the rise of Christianity. We are now nearing that great change which may be expected when the spring-point enters Aquarius.”‘

References:

[Bell 87] Bell, J. “Speakable and unspeakable in quantum mechanics”, Cambridge University Press, 1987

[Bell 89] Bell, J. : “Towards an exact quantum mechanics”, in “Themes in Contemporary Physics II. Essays in honor of Julian Schwinger’s 70th birthday”, Deser, S. , and Finkelstein, R. J. Ed. , World Scientific, Singapore 1989

[Bell 90] Bell, J. : “Against measurement”, in “Sixty-Two Years of Uncertainty. Historical, Philosophical and Physical Inquiries into the Foundations of Quantum Mechanics”, Proceedings of a NATO Advanced Study Institute, August 5-15, Erice, Ed. Arthur I. Miller, NATO ASI Series B vol. 226 , Plenum Press, New York 1990

[Eccles 77] Eccles, J., Popper, K.: “Self and its Brain”, Springer , New York 1977

[Eccles 92] Beck, F. and Eccles, J.C.: “Quantum aspects of brain activity and the role of consciousness”, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci., USA, 89 (1992) pp. 11357-11361.

[Eccles 94] Eccles, J.C.: “How the Self Controls its Brain”, Springer, Berlin 1994

[Ellis 73] Ellis, G., Hawking, S.: “The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time”, Cambridge University Press, 1973

[Ellis 93] Ellis, G.: “Before the Beginning”, Bowerdean/Marion Boyars, 1993.

[Gold97] Goldstein, S. : “Quantum Theory without Observers”

[Jung64] Jung, C.G.: “Flying Saucers. A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies.” Vol. 10 & 18. The Collected Works of C.G. Jung., Translated by R.F.C. Hull. Bollingen Series XX. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1964

[Stapp 93] Stapp, H.P.: “Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics”, Springer Verlag, Berlin 1993
_____________________________________________________________

From: <crownofthorns@hushmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: GMfCL 2003 #48: Montreal Ibo-Clinic OPEN!;
Date: November 30, 2003 at 7:18:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bro I think what you said is right, everybody means well but has their
own agenda and interests and nobody is ever going to unite in some one
big movement.

I like what everyone does in their own way but I take it all with a grain
of salt and half a bowl ūüėČ or I start getting upset and have no need
for the negative energy until I ask myself why am I getting so overwrought
by something that doesn’t really matter and doesn’t have anything to
do with helping ibogaine.

Dana and Patrick have all these connections with each other besides ibogaine,
but you read the archives on google of the list from years ago and they
have 100 mile long messages calling each other assholes ūüėČ You read
the media that people post to this list and it’s all great, but do a
search on agood engine like mapinc and you find stories that nobody who
is involved ever reprints on here.

Here’s a not so positive Marc Emery story where his neghbors are complaining
that he has addicts tripping in a apartment building and then sets them
loose, continued with his plans to start for pay detox clinics and compete
with Mash. More power bro, the more the merrier ūüôā

Peace out, smoke out. ‘Organized’ is just another word for ‘follow me
and give me more credit and power’ ūüėČ Same old. To make sure I say what
I mean, I am not disprespecting anyone, I think what Marc does is great,
I think what Dana does is great, I think Patrick is great, I think Mash
is great, I think Howard is great, I think everyone involved with ibogaine
is doing the right thing in their own way.

I don’t think anyone has a lock on ‘being right’ or better, or having
some more pure intention.

Peace out,
Curtis

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03/n1779/a09.html?1746

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03/n1779/a09.html
Newshawk: Herb
Pubdate: Sat, 01 Nov 2003
Source: Vancouver Magazine (CN BC)
Contact: mail@vancouvermagazine.com
Website: http://www.vanmag.com/
Author: Ross Crockford
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?196 (Emery, Marc)

PROBLEM ROOT

A West End addiction clinic test-drives tries an African drug.

Residents of the West End live on top of each other, but they’re often
clueless about their neighbours.  Consider the tenants of a particular
condo tower near Stanley Park.  The retirees drifting back from breakfast,
the Japanese girl heading out for a run-they’d never guess that up in
one neighbor’s apartment this morning, a Seattle dominatrix is trying
to kick her addiction to heroin by undergoing a treatment rooted in African
shamanism.

Kelly, 34, pale and thin, her eyes flickering, is wrapped in sheets on
a bed, whispering of dragons and wolves. ¬†She’s 24 hours into a three-
day hallucinogenic trip induced by ibogaine, an extract of Tabernanthe
iboga, a shrub native to Gabon. ¬†In that region’s Bwiti religion, it’s
believed that chewing the plant’s root enables people to speak with the
dead. ¬†“She’s been speaking in tongues, too,” says Marc Emery, munching
on 7-Eleven crudites in the living room. ¬†“They don’t understand what
they’re seeing. ¬†It’s after, when they’re clean, that they reflect on
it.”

Emery’s no doctor. ¬†He is, of course, better known as Vancouver’s loudest
pot activist and the owner of a $3-million marijuana seed business.
Now some of that wealth funds his clandestine Iboga Therapy House, a
free clinic and the first of its kind in Canada.  Over the past year,
he’s dosed 28 hardcore addicts-including his own adopted son-with ibogaine,
which reportedly purges all cravings for drugs after its hallucinations
fog the trauma of withdrawal. ¬†“From our perspective, it’s going great,
” says Emery- although nearly all of his “patients” have relapsed into
drug use after a month or two clean, and he’s now getting them in for
week-long follow-up treatments.  ( His son, after a third treatment,
has stayed off heroin for six months.  ) Emery says the ibogaine and
round-the-clock “facilitators” trained in first aid cost him $2,000 per
patient. ¬†“But all education costs money.”

Ibogaine is illegal in the United States, but it isn’t in Canada, which
is why Emery’s clinic has recently been cited in publications ranging
from LA Weekly to the Journal of the American Medical Association. ¬†It’s
been applauded by U.S.  drugpolicy liberals, who claim it could complement
Vancouver’s new safe injection site by reducing the demand for hard drugs.

But Emery has also enraged addiction doctors in the States who accuse
him of running a dangerous, uncontrolled experiment: over the past 20
years, at least three patients at other clinics have died after taking
ibogaine.  ( Emery insists all of his patients have a full medical beforehand.
“Even though we’re dealing with vulnerable, healthimpacted individuals,
I never really see any serious health anomalies.  It seems very safe
to me.” ) Emery has also angered members of the Vancouver Area Network
of Drug Users, who say he refuses to treat addicts from the downtown
east side, and plans to create a “detox resort” like similar ibogaine
clinics in Panama and the Virgin Islands that charge up to $15,000 per
treatment. ¬†But Emery says he can’t waste his money on someone headed
straight back to a welfare hotel awash in smack. ¬†“I need these people
to have some ability to succeed,” he says. ¬†“And I’ve never asked anybody
for a cent.”

The real question, of course, is whether ibogaine really helps the people
who take it. ¬†Kevin, a Coquitlam car salesman, subjected himself to Emery’s
treatment to break a decade-long crack habit.  He suffered 19 hours of
vomiting and gruesome hallucinations, “like something out of Caligula,
” he says. ¬†Neurologists have found that ibogaine increases serotonin
levels, like an antidepressant, and simultaneously shuts off cocaine
and heroin receptors in the brain-but, Kevin says, “it had absolutely
no effect on me whatsoever.” He went back to using within a month. ¬†Still,
at least that was a month clean. ¬†A fresh start. ¬†And for that, he’s
grateful. ¬†“Whether or not I like Marc and his tactics, I have to respect
him. ¬†At least he gave me the opportunity to change my life.”

———————————————————————
———–
MAP posted-by: Josh

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:23:53 -0800 Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Go Dana! ūüôā

I’ll do everyone a favor and cut out half of the bulletin which
is
reprinting messages already posted to this list ūüôā

I found the after ibogaine list subscribe from the archives, it’s
sacrament@mindvox.com. sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

.:vector:.

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Ibogaine Treatment Now Accessible in Montreal–Call 212-677-7180!

For years now Cures not Wars has been referring addicts for treatment
in Holland, Mexico, Vancouver and the Caribbean. At last we are
doing
our own treatments for folks in the North Eastern U.S.–conveniently
close in Montreal! Treatment will not be free, but we are willing
to
work with anyone who genuinely desires to quit one or more substances
of abuse to arrange some kind of sliding scale that fits your
budget.

We are hoping that all of our affiliates, both within and without
the
Million Marijuana March, are ready to upgrade your message to
stress
the public health benefits of separating marijuana from hard drugs-


and the vital role ibogaine can have in repelling  hard drugs
from
the cannabis scene.

According to Dutch government factsheets, for instance, out of
the
total population of 727,000, Amsterdam has around 5,100 hard-drug
users. The primary thrust of policy is to discourage the use of
drugs, and to combat the trade in drugs. The authorities also
seek to
minimise the risks incurred by drug users and to reduce as far
as
possible the nuisance factor for the general public. In the context
of use, Amsterdam’s drug policy differentiates between hard and
soft
drugs, i.e.: cannabis is available, but at locations where no
other
illicit substances may be sold, and this “market separation” is
strictly enforced. Of some 5,100 hard-drug users, around 2000
are of
Dutch origin, with some 1,350 having roots in former colony of
Surinam, the Netherlands Antilles and Morocco. Around 1,750 users
come from other European countries, mainly Germany and Italy.
The
total number of hard-drug users is steadily decreasing, while
their
average age is rising, from 26.8 years in 1981 to 39 years in
1999.
In the same period the total number of drug users under 22 years
of
age dropped from 14.4 percent to 1.6%.

A ninety percent reduction! For harm reduction workers who seek
to
duplicate this feat in countries where the government is not (like
the Netherlands) cooperating, Ibogaine represents a medical
alternative to state involvement. That’s why we would like every
Million Marijuana March organization to become an outlet for ibogaine
information, and to this end we are asking you to join a new list,

where all the activists and treatment providers are waiting to
answer
your questions. To check out a typical thread from the ibogaine
list,
look under Ibogaine, below, after BUSHWHACKED.

Subscribe Mindvox

To join the Mindvox ibogaine list just send an email to
ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com if you please.

Nothing more to it. You don’t have to write anything in the subject
or text area.

———

So far, 86  Cities are Signed up for 2004 .

MAYDAY IS JAY-DAY!

(Next year, the first Saturday of May falls on May 1. We are
recommending Sunday, May 2 or Monday May 3 in cities where there
is
significant conflict with other local events–or as a rain date.
Of
course, we understand that some schools have to do it on 4/20
because
their school year is over by May, and that some northern cities
have
to do it a little later in May…)

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] RE: High Times [ibogaine] Saddam Emery?
Date: November 30, 2003 at 6:17:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s a nice wish but I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon.
I think that message carla posted said it all really well and the best
you’re going to get is people agreeing to disagree and being civil to
each other someof the time.

Everybody involved with ibogaine has their own opinions and ideas about
how things should go. If I’m wrong about this then I’m sure someone
will correct me but i’ve been here since this list started too and if
there is some single ibogaine ‘movement’ then I’ve never seen it. Just
like I’ve never seen any marijuana movement, counter culture ‘movement’
or any other movement.

Which is the reason it all lives here instead of anywhere else. Nobody
organises anything or tries to impose some order on people and everyone
can say anything they want. I like Marc Emery and think he’s a fun
maniac ūüôā I’m sure his ego is as big as Mash’s or bigger, that goes for
a lot of people on here too ūüôā But there isn’t anybody who is going to
unite behind anyone or anything.

But it’s something new to say to the camera when they’re interviewing
Marc again ūüėČ

Since this list also by coincidence has more mariuana activists reading
it and posting to it then any other single place I’ve seen ūüėČ What is
happening with High Times? I don’t get it. High Times is going to
become a coffee table magazine and stop promoting pot??? Why even
bother.

I’ve read this now online all over and I’m wondering what’s going on. I
know most of you don’t like High Times or have some constant war going
on between each other and hate each other behind the scenes, was I
talking about ibogaine or marijuana? ūüėČ What is happening, why is High
Times doing this? Did it change ownership and if it didn’t then why are
the owners letting the new management take over the magazine and
remaking it without pot?

I don’t get that one at all.

.:vector:.

— Sara Glatt <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
So, why marc doesn’t talk to Dana?why don’t you support the MMM this
year?
I don’t think that you or Marc would be where you are today without
Dana Beal.
Is this working on Global level?
Marc wants his name Bigger then Mash isn’t it?

You can change your mind when ever, it is free.

—–Original Message—–
From: sandra . [mailto:windforme@graffiti.net]
Sent: zaterdag 29 november 2003 5:37
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist …

Yipes! It’s been awhile since I’ve been able to read the list, it’s
amazing to see so many responses to this thread. It’s good. I guess
all
I really need to clarify is that I’m not really as ‘bent’ as it may
have
come across. My point was intended to be simple: basically, i took
the
description of the interaction between Kroupa and Pinchbeck at the
forum
to be a little bit more than what I had personally experienced or
perceived. I didn’t really think it was such a big deal…My second
response was ¬†just a reaction to the s.o.b/saddam emery thing…I
said I
wouldn’t post anymore ’cause I think it’s kinda silly really. Funny
too,
mind you. I meant that I wasn’t going to post on this topic anymore,
not
on the list entirely…As you can see I’ve changed my mind about
posting
on this thread. I felt like I should share my thoughts now that it’s
gone this deep and re-clarify…

Someone posted earlier that it would have been good to hear a
synopsis
of what was talked about, I think that’s a great idea as a lot of
great
information was shared. It was a totally worthwhile experience. The
forum was filmed, I’m just waiting to get a copy of it so that we can
post it on pot-tv for all to see. Stay tooned…

I’d love to see more co-operation between people in the ibo movement.
Please don’t take my comments to be more than that. My reasons for
wanting to see less focus on the nitty gritty is really directly
related
to my work. There’s so much to learn sometimes it seems slightly
overwhelming, and when the focus get’s switched to well,
whatever…it
get’s a bit frustrating for me, but i’m openminded regardless and
paying
attention whenever possible. So don’t go git’n yer knickers in a knot
over trivials…

On another note, perhaps now a new topic:

We’re in the process of creating a database of information for people
who have undergone Ibo therapy. At the therapy house this means
starting
in our own backyard in B.C. and contacting service providers,
therapists, counsellors, detox progs., insite, people working in all
sorts of treatment modalities such as md’s, naturopaths, homeopaths,
yoga instructors, nutrition counsellors, masseurs and others, as well
as
reps. from the compassion clubs, drug user advocacy groups etc…to
create a list of people who are informed about ibo therapy and
willing
to offer their support to those who have experienced it and need
support
in aftercare (like Jaden).

It’s quite a task to take on but we’re hoping to have our first
meeting
soon and I think there’s going to be a strong group there. Hopefully
we
can at least begin with a links page that provides some options to
check
out.

The plan is to expand it into a database of these options available
around the globe. Anyone interested in sending links/ideas/contact
info
please contact me off list at sandra@ibogatherapyhouse.org. It would
be
a useful tool for all of us I think.

thx and cheers out to all you freaks,

-madam madass saddam sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: <gboy@hush.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:15:12 -0800
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist …

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1

I agree with carla too, in 2 years i’ve posted to this list 3 times
and
keep on reading it because it doesn’t bore me. I now got a inbox full
of hate mail or peeps who are saying right on all the peeps who rep
ibo
are maniacs. I dont care about the hate i hit deleat, the peeps going
right on didnt understand anything I said because all their mail says
the same thing, everybody should be more like they are and theyre the
ones who should be doing all the talking except nobody cares to hear
it.
I liked the conf a lot, I loved dhoruba and I i love seeing patrick
and
pinchbeck because its like two sides of a different world, homeboy is
a drug monster who’s done more of everything then near anybody i ever
heard of, pinchbeck is a burning man entheo weenie, they got a lot of
tension and put on a great show i’d pay just to see the two of them
put
on a entheogen deathmatch ;-> no issues at all. if everybody did a
science
talk i’d fall asleep its dull, the whole show was dope, nice combo of
everything. if saundra is going to be all bent out of shape over one
msg then smoke another bowl and calm down because thats bullshit,
like
i say my opinion and i’m not allowed to? who elected you god. the
people
dissing marc emery is a joke too, lighten up and get a sense of
humor.

My exact issue is with dana beal dissing people as garbageheads.
nobody
needs to be hearing that shit when I paid money to get in their and
watch
this, if i’m a garbagehead then i would have taken my money and spent
it on another bag. that was not called for. that’s my issue. I do not
need to pay money to see a show and then have someone who put it on
diss
people for attending. especially stoners who are baked 24/7 saying
that
shit. who you talking to, say it to yourself.

.g

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:02:17 -0800 Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:
Well said Carla. Kudos 2 u

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: GMfCL 2003 #48: Montreal Ibo-Clinic OPEN!;
Date: November 30, 2003 at 6:23:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Go Dana! ūüôā

I’ll do everyone a favor and cut out half of the bulletin which is
reprinting messages already posted to this list ūüôā

I found the after ibogaine list subscribe from the archives, it’s
sacrament@mindvox.com. sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com

.:vector:.

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Ibogaine Treatment Now Accessible in Montreal–Call 212-677-7180!

For years now Cures not Wars has been referring addicts for treatment
in Holland, Mexico, Vancouver and the Caribbean. At last we are doing
our own treatments for folks in the North Eastern U.S.–conveniently
close in Montreal! Treatment will not be free, but we are willing to
work with anyone who genuinely desires to quit one or more substances
of abuse to arrange some kind of sliding scale that fits your budget.

We are hoping that all of our affiliates, both within and without the
Million Marijuana March, are ready to upgrade your message to stress
the public health benefits of separating marijuana from hard drugs–
and the vital role ibogaine can have in repelling  hard drugs from
the cannabis scene.

According to Dutch government factsheets, for instance, out of the
total population of 727,000, Amsterdam has around 5,100 hard-drug
users. The primary thrust of policy is to discourage the use of
drugs, and to combat the trade in drugs. The authorities also seek to
minimise the risks incurred by drug users and to reduce as far as
possible the nuisance factor for the general public. In the context
of use, Amsterdam’s drug policy differentiates between hard and soft
drugs, i.e.: cannabis is available, but at locations where no other
illicit substances may be sold, and this “market separation” is
strictly enforced. Of some 5,100 hard-drug users, around 2000 are of
Dutch origin, with some 1,350 having roots in former colony of
Surinam, the Netherlands Antilles and Morocco. Around 1,750 users
come from other European countries, mainly Germany and Italy. The
total number of hard-drug users is steadily decreasing, while their
average age is rising, from 26.8 years in 1981 to 39 years in 1999.
In the same period the total number of drug users under 22 years of
age dropped from 14.4 percent to 1.6%.

A ninety percent reduction! For harm reduction workers who seek to
duplicate this feat in countries where the government is not (like
the Netherlands) cooperating, Ibogaine represents a medical
alternative to state involvement. That’s why we would like every
Million Marijuana March organization to become an outlet for ibogaine
information, and to this end we are asking you to join a new list,
where all the activists and treatment providers are waiting to answer
your questions. To check out a typical thread from the ibogaine list,
look under Ibogaine, below, after BUSHWHACKED.

Subscribe Mindvox

To join the Mindvox ibogaine list just send an email to
ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com if you please.

Nothing more to it. You don’t have to write anything in the subject
or text area.

———

So far, 86  Cities are Signed up for 2004 .

MAYDAY IS JAY-DAY!

(Next year, the first Saturday of May falls on May 1. We are
recommending Sunday, May 2 or Monday May 3 in cities where there is
significant conflict with other local events–or as a rain date. Of
course, we understand that some schools have to do it on 4/20 because
their school year is over by May, and that some northern cities have
to do it a little later in May…)

albany
albuquerque
ashland
asheville
auckland
berlin
boone
bratislava
buenos aires
buffalo

burlington
capetown
christchurch
cincinnati
cleveland
cologne
columbia
dallas
darwin
dayton

des moines
detroit
dover
dublin
dunedin
eugene
fayetteville
flint
frankfurt
ft. lauderdale

halifax
hearst
helsinki
hilo
houston
hull
kansas city
las vegas
lansing
levin

mexico city
minneapolis
missoula
montpelier
napier
nashville
newark
new orleans
new york
nimbin

ogden
omaha
orlando
paducah
paris
parkersburg
philadelphia
phoenix
portland
prague

raleigh-durham
rapid city
richmond
roanoke
rosario
salt lake city
san diego
san francisco
san juan
san marcos

springfield
st. louis
sturgeon falls
tampa
tel aviv
toronto
tokyo
traverse city
tucson
tupelo

upper lake
vancouver
washington, d.c.
wellington
wichita
wilmington

Help us reach our goal of 300 cities worldwide!

To get on the poster for 2004–“Mayday is Jay Day”–check yr contact
info and email me back telling me to add yr city to the List at the
top of this email. Right now the last listing we have for you is as
follows:

Eaton: Andy Fudge fudgeie@bolt.com 210 eaton lewisburg rd apt#61
Rally 12 noon — lots of kick ass specialties

By the way, I lost about three weeks email not long after this year’s
event. Did anything happen on the first Saturday of May in yrour
area? Numbers? Arrests? Media? Anything of interest happen, etc?

You can also call me at 212-677-4899.

Dana/cnw

P.S.: We are also interested in adding to our list of prestigious
endorsers, which consists of pot activists well-known in their city
or country. We need a name and phone number for each. Any
suggestions?

P.P.S: We need on average $100 for each affiliate to print  and ship
this year’s poster. ¬†If you can’t send it, we have to raise it
somewhere else.

HELP RAISE MONEY FOR THE MILLION MARIJUANA MARCH–BOOK A YIPPIE
SPEAKER!

Recently we wrote you that we need on average $100 for each affiliate
to print ¬†and ship this year’s poster–and that if you can’t send it,
we have to raise it somewhere else.

You can help. Go to http://www.yippiespeakers.com ¬†Here’s the good
news: 20% of all speaker fees go to printing and operating expenses
for the MMM 2004. (If you can get me booked personally it’s 100%.)

Some of these speakers like Grace Slick and Hunter Thompson get
$25,000 just for appearing at yr local university! (Some like Dennis
Peron are available for a few thousand) Your local group gets 4%
finders’ fee.

What we need you to do is contact yr local on-campus activists and
have them agitate their student affairs folks in charge of outside
speakers ¬†(or equivalent) to book some of our speakers. It’s
important to clarify that we are NOT  asking them to get this from
the budget of their NORML or SSDP chapter, but from the campus office
that books outside speakers. (At Kent State they call it the Office
of Student Life, and they paid me $4,000 for a three hour appearance,
which went straight to the printer.)

It’s a good year for it. Things have come full-circle for Yippie! We
have all the elements–an illegitimate ¬†Republican President everyone
hates at home, a quagmire war abroad–for the first time ¬†since the
’70’s. And best of all, even though all our speakers support cannabis
and oppose the drug war, they are Yippie, not legalization speakers,
so you won’t have to deal with demands from the university
administration that you find some anti-drug speaker for “Balance” or
you don’t get the booking. (Since we are moving toward protests
against the Republican Convention in NYC next August, to be fair
they’d have to demand an opponent of protests, period, which is
absurd.)

If you have a hot prospect,  email me right back; but since  about
half of everything sent to this address “bounces”, be sure to also
put in a call to the speakers bureau at 212-529-3026, and leave a
message if no one picks up. Or call me at 212-677-7180.

Dana/cnw

*****!!! May 3, 2002/Mayday 2004 Cannabis Liberation Day: Updates,
Reports!!!*****

From: shane@gn.apc.org

Greetings,

Lambeth Council are taking the Cannabis Festival to Court. Wednesday
26th Nov 10.00 court 3 at Tower Bridge Magistrates Court, 211 Tooley
Street, SE1. Support welcome…..
Charges of contravening the entertainments licence. – The Council are
alleging people dancing 8 mins after the time of the licence and sale
in the bar 13 mins after time.

Festival Meeting
This Friday 28th Nov (last friday of the month) at Bonnington Sq
Cafe.
Meeting 7pm for a prompt 7.30pm start.
After the meeting we will eat. Bonnington Sq is a bring your own
booze cafe and a 3 course meal is about ŇĀ9 ( or ŇĀ4.50 one course).

Agenda

1. Reclassification (29th Jan) and our reply to it.

2. 6th Annual Cannabis March and Festival Sat 8th May

3. Sound System benefits. Report back from Tues 25th Meeting

4. Toilet hire court case. Report back.

4. aob

y>
—–

FROM: everyman@deism.org
DATE: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
SUBJECT: Re: M.  Digest Number 89

Dana, Add Roanoke,Va. same as last year only new phone # 540
776-4201
————–

Buffalo:  Philip L Beavers jr./B.A.C.H <BLocman420@aol.com> [This
number is for organizers only: 716-895-1987  Phil is looking for a
new person who can be the phone contact in Buffalo.]  600-700 people
over the course of the day in ’02; all 3 networks; no police problems

—————-

From: fdrlxmt@ntl.sympatico.ca

Hello Danna   .. Federal Exemptee  Robert Neron    From Hearst
Ontario    .Remember we were part of the groups that celebrated MMM
last year ..

i’m still planning a celebration for this year ( 2004 Saturday may
1st ).

As you know i had to battle with Hodgkin lymphoma all year and this
past saturday we lost the only brother we had at the age of 35 to the
same identical cancer ..

But i haven’t given-up ..just yet ..

I’m not too sure of How , Where ¬†¬†and ect… ¬†but we will have a
definite Pot Party up in deep northern Ontario May 1 st 2004 ( it may
end up at a private land to party ) so Hearst Million Marijuana March
wont have to spend lots of $$ to PARTY in town ..

please put HEARST , ONTARIO

and the contact make it   to my self

Robert Neron
Box: 1346 Hearst , Ontario
P0L 1N0

and   fdrlxmt@ntl.sympatico.ca    as e-mail conections

————-

Newshawk: Ben Masel
Pubdate: Fri, 21 Nov 2003
Source: Chicago Sun-Times (IL)
Copyright: 2003 The Sun-Times Co.
Contact: letters@suntimes.com
Website: http://www.suntimes.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/81
Author: Abdon M. Pallasch

ILLINOIS SUPREME COURT CURBS POLICE POWERS IN CAR SEARCHES

A traffic stop does not give police license to conduct a full-fledged
criminal investigation, the Illinois Supreme Court ruled Thursday in
two different cases.

The court reversed a marijuana conviction of Roy Caballes, who was
stopped for driving 71 mph in a 65 mph zone on Interstate 80.  While
a state trooper wrote him a warning ticket, another trooper walked a
drug-sniffing dog around his car.

The dog reacted, and the troopers found marijuana in the trunk.

Prosecutors argued that, under U.S.  Supreme Court rulings, letting
police dogs sniff outside the car does not violate the Fourth
Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure because
the dogs do not actually enter the car.

But Justice Thomas Kilbride wrote in a 4-3 opinion, “The police
impermissibly broadened the scope of a traffic stop in this case into
a drug investigation.”

The same lineup of justices also reversed a drug possession
conviction for Raymond Harris, a passenger in a car stopped in Will
County. ¬†A sheriff’s officer stopped the car for an illegal left
turn.  He requested identification from Harris because he was
considering letting Harris drive the vehicle back, he said.

The officer discovered an outstanding warrant for Harris’ failure to
appear in court and arrested him.  He found a pea-size rock of
cocaine.

“The warrant check was not supported by a reasonable, articulate
suspicion that [Harris] had committed or was about to commit a
crime,” Justice Charles Freeman wrote.

Attorney General Lisa Madigan is considering whether to appeal the
cases to the U.S.  Supreme Court, which has given police more leeway
to conduct searches during traffic stops, said Solicitor General Gary
Feinerman.

But Andrea Lyon, president of the Illinois Association of Criminal
Defense Lawyers and a professor at DePaul University College of Law,
calls the rulings “pretty unreviewable” because federal law allows
the states to grant more due process than federal case law requires,
she said.

“I have to say I’m pleasantly surprised because, over the last few
decades, we have been giving up so much of the Fourth Amendment,”
Lyons said. ¬†“What the Illinois Supreme Court is doing is saying, ‘We
take our citizens’ right to be free from unlawful searches and
seizures seriously.’ ”

Caballes’ attorney Ralph Meczyk said, “The Illinois Supreme Court was
not willing to chip away at Illinois citizens’ basic rights.”

In both cases, the court ruled that “motions to suppress” evidence
entered against the defendants — namely the drugs — should have
been granted.  In both cases, the same minority of three justices
argued that the searches were not “unreasonable.”

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03.n1828.a08.html
——-

From:gregorio_samsa@hotmail.com

Mr. Dana Beal:

Nice to write you again. This message is only to inform you that

amecamexico@hotmail.com

is no longer the address of our organisation (Asociación Mexicana de
Estudios sobre Cannabis: AMECA), please change by

ameca@amecamexico.org.

Thank You.

Leopoldo Rivera Rivera

Chairman.

********************
*****BUSHWHACKED!!*****
************************

http://bushflash.com/ma.html
——————–

From: rlake@mapinc.org

*** We’re going to fight this drug war bill!

*** Act NOW to protect medical marijuana patients, preserve the right
of
judges to show compassion for deserving defendants, and save taxpayer
money

You’ve been with us all year as we have fought for more compassionate
and
less expensive drug policies – from fighting the RAVE Act to working
to
pass medical marijuana legislation that protects HIV/AIDS and Cancer
patients. Now, just before Congress goes out of session, one of the
country’s harshest drug war extremists, Rep. Mark Souder (R-IN), is
about
to introduce some of the scariest legislation we’ve seen this year.

Rep. Souder’s bill increases penalties for many drug offenses and
takes
away the right of judges to show mercy when it’s appropriate. The
bill also
enacts new draconian penalties that could sentence compassionate
Americans
that grow and provide medical marijuana to decades in federal prison.

Although it’s titled the ‘Drug Sentencing Reform Act,’ this dangerous
bill
is all sentencing and no reform. It will destroy the lives of
thousands
more non-violent Americans.

We know that Rep. Souder wants to introduce his bill within the next
couple
of weeks and is asking for co-sponsorship from other Representatives.
Make
sure your Representative doesn’t support this bill. Call NOW and tell
your
Representative not to co-sponsor Rep. Souder’s Drug Sentencing Reform
Act
because it contains no reform and ties the hands of judges.

Actions to Take:

1) CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE NOW!

To reach your representative by phone, call the US Capitol
Switchboard at
1-800-839-5276 or call your representative’s office directly by
looking up
the phone number on
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/ctt.asp?u=1876&l=9389 .

Tell your Representative: “I’m a constituent and I’m calling to urge
Rep.
[Name] not to co-sponsor Rep. Souder’s Drug Sentencing Reform Act,
which he
is about to introduce. The Drug Sentencing Reform Act contains no
reform
and ties the hands of judges. It will punish nonviolent Americans and
compassionate citizens that provide patients with medical marijuana.
I
would like Rep. [Name] to tell me where s/he stands on this bill.
S/he can
send a letter to me at [Address] or an e-mail to [Address]. Thank you
for
your time.”

2) Tell us what your Representative says.  Email us at
ActionFeedback@drugpolicy.org.

3) Forward this alert to your friends, family, and co-workers.

More Information:

The so-called Drug Sentencing Reform Act has yet to be introduced,
but it
will do the following:

** Tie the hands of judges by making it harder for them to reduce
sentences
for non-violent drug offenders. (It does this by expanding the
so-called
‘Feeney Amendment’ to apply to drug offenses). This will mean longer
sentences for non-violent offenses, with taxpayers like you picking
up the
cost!

** Mandates that most people on parole, probation or supervised
release be
subjected to random drug testing, even if their original offense had
nothing to do with drugs. (If enacted, thousands of non-violent
Americans
could be sent to prison for years for smoking marijuana in the
privacy of
their own home and then failing a drug test.)

** Directs the U.S. Sentencing Commission to no longer allow lower
sentences for non-violent drug offenders that have certain mitigating
circumstances (such as being addicted to drugs) or for non-violent
drug
offenders that made a mistake and are otherwise good citizens.

** Enacts new draconian penalties for growing, distributing, and
providing
‘high-potency’ marijuana to others, including medical marijuana –
which
often has a higher potency to better relieve the suffering of AIDS,
Cancer,
and other patients. If enacted, this provision will allow the federal
government to send more medical marijuana patients and their
caregivers to
federal prison for years, in some cases decades.

** Read Rep. Souder’s explanation of his bill here:
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/ctt.asp?u=1876&l=9390. Our
analysis is
based on Souder’s explanation and our discussions with congressional
staffers.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+

[NOTE: I turned the .pdf of Rep. Souder’s explination of the bill
from the
above URL into the text below before forwarding this msg]

Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3: 16 PM

Subject: FW: Dear Colleague; Criminal Justice; Drug Sentencing Reform
Act

HELP IMPROVE FAIRNESS AND EFFECTIVENESS IN DRUG SENTENCING

CO-SPONSOR THE DRUG SENTENCING REFORM ACT

November 19, 2003

Dear Colleague:

Before we adjourn for the year, I would like to ask for your support
for
important legislation that will help ensure fairness and
effectiveness in
drug sentencing: the Drug Sentencing Reform Act (DSRA). A recent GAO
Report
has revealed problems with the judicial enforcement of
Congressionally
mandated penalties for drug trafficking; in addition, the changing
narcotics threat has exposed some gaps in our drug laws. Here is a
summary
of how this bill addresses these issues:

Regularizes the Use of “Downward Departures” in Sentencing

* Extends the “Feeney Amendment” sentencing reforms of the PROTECT
Act
(restricting the grounds of downward departures to those specifically
approved by Congress and the Sentencing Commission) to drug offenses
and
drug-and gang-related violence offenses.

Makes Additional Needed Improvements to Drug Crime Sentencing

* Ensures that drug testing will be mandatory to verify a no-drug-use
condition of parole or supervised release.

* Directs the Sentencing Commission to ensure that irrelevant
personal
characteristics are not used as grounds for modifying sentences in
drug
offenses and drug-and gang-related violence offenses.

* Amends certain parts of the Sentencing Guidelines to ensure their
compatibility with national policy on drug crimes, including the
prohibition on the use of dangerous weapons in connection with drug
offenses, and the requirement that defendants cooperate with
authorities to
obtain certain sentence reductions.

Deters Drug Traffickers From Taking Advantage of Expedited Entry
Programs

* Provides for enhanced penalties for persons convicted of smuggling
drugs
into the U. S. through special facilitated entry programs for
frequent
crossers (such as the SENTRI and NEXUS programs in use at land border
crossings, which allow participants to avoid most standard customs
inspections).

Modernizes Marijuana Sentences To Reflect the Rise in High-Potency
Marijuana

* Amends current law to apply tougher penalties to persons smuggling
high-potency marijuana (such as “B. C. Bud”). Our marijuana laws were
drafted in an era when the potency of marijuana, as measured by the
percentage of THC (the psychoactive component of the drug) was only 3
percent. Today, even low-grade marijuana is at 6 percent, while “B.
C. Bud”
is at levels of 25 percent and even higher.

I will be introducing this legislation before the end of this
session, and
I would very much appreciate your support. If you are interested in
co-sponsoring the DSRA, or have any questions about the bill, please
have a
member of your staff call Nick Coleman at 5-2577. A copy of the
legislation
and a more detailed explanation of its provisions will be provided to
you
upon request.

Thank you very much for your time and concern. I look forward to
working
with you to address the continuing problem of illegal drug
trafficking and
abuse in our communities.

Sincerely,
/s Mark Souder

Mark E. Souder
Chairman
Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy and Human Resources
Government Reform Committee
———

MMM-Cannabis Event NAVIGATORS, city lists.

Please send in MMM city info and updates to Dana Beal
dana@cures-not-wars.org and also use the web form and contact links
at the
Event Navigator page here:
http://www.millionmarijuanamarch.org/navigator.php

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist …
Date: November 29, 2003 at 4:19:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So, why marc doesn’t talk to Dana?why don’t you support the MMM this
year?
I don’t think that you or Marc would be where you are today without
Dana Beal.
Is this working on Global level?
Marc wants his name Bigger then Mash isn’t it?

You can change your mind when ever, it is free.

—–Original Message—–
From: sandra . [mailto:windforme@graffiti.net]
Sent: zaterdag 29 november 2003 5:37
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist …

Yipes! It’s been awhile since I’ve been able to read the list, it’s
amazing to see so many responses to this thread. It’s good. I guess all
I really need to clarify is that I’m not really as ‘bent’ as it may have
come across. My point was intended to be simple: basically, i took the
description of the interaction between Kroupa and Pinchbeck at the forum
to be a little bit more than what I had personally experienced or
perceived. I didn’t really think it was such a big deal…My second
response was ¬†just a reaction to the s.o.b/saddam emery thing…I said I
wouldn’t post anymore ’cause I think it’s kinda silly really. Funny too,
mind you. I meant that I wasn’t going to post on this topic anymore, not
on the list entirely…As you can see I’ve changed my mind about posting
on this thread. I felt like I should share my thoughts now that it’s
gone this deep and re-clarify…

Someone posted earlier that it would have been good to hear a synopsis
of what was talked about, I think that’s a great idea as a lot of great
information was shared. It was a totally worthwhile experience. The
forum was filmed, I’m just waiting to get a copy of it so that we can
post it on pot-tv for all to see. Stay tooned…

I’d love to see more co-operation between people in the ibo movement.
Please don’t take my comments to be more than that. My reasons for
wanting to see less focus on the nitty gritty is really directly related
to my work. There’s so much to learn sometimes it seems slightly
overwhelming, and when the focus get’s switched to well, whatever…it
get’s a bit frustrating for me, but i’m openminded regardless and paying
attention whenever possible. So don’t go git’n yer knickers in a knot
over trivials…

On another note, perhaps now a new topic:

We’re in the process of creating a database of information for people
who have undergone Ibo therapy. At the therapy house this means starting
in our own backyard in B.C. and contacting service providers,
therapists, counsellors, detox progs., insite, people working in all
sorts of treatment modalities such as md’s, naturopaths, homeopaths,
yoga instructors, nutrition counsellors, masseurs and others, as well as
reps. from the compassion clubs, drug user advocacy groups etc…to
create a list of people who are informed about ibo therapy and willing
to offer their support to those who have experienced it and need support
in aftercare (like Jaden).

It’s quite a task to take on but we’re hoping to have our first meeting
soon and I think there’s going to be a strong group there. Hopefully we
can at least begin with a links page that provides some options to check
out.

The plan is to expand it into a database of these options available
around the globe. Anyone interested in sending links/ideas/contact info
please contact me off list at sandra@ibogatherapyhouse.org. It would be
a useful tool for all of us I think.

thx and cheers out to all you freaks,

-madam madass saddam sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: <gboy@hush.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:15:12 -0800
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist …

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1

I agree with carla too, in 2 years i’ve posted to this list 3 times and
keep on reading it because it doesn’t bore me. I now got a inbox full
of hate mail or peeps who are saying right on all the peeps who rep ibo
are maniacs. I dont care about the hate i hit deleat, the peeps going
right on didnt understand anything I said because all their mail says
the same thing, everybody should be more like they are and theyre the
ones who should be doing all the talking except nobody cares to hear
it.
I liked the conf a lot, I loved dhoruba and I i love seeing patrick and
pinchbeck because its like two sides of a different world, homeboy is
a drug monster who’s done more of everything then near anybody i ever
heard of, pinchbeck is a burning man entheo weenie, they got a lot of
tension and put on a great show i’d pay just to see the two of them put
on a entheogen deathmatch ;-> no issues at all. if everybody did a
science
talk i’d fall asleep its dull, the whole show was dope, nice combo of
everything. if saundra is going to be all bent out of shape over one
msg then smoke another bowl and calm down because thats bullshit, like
i say my opinion and i’m not allowed to? who elected you god. the people
dissing marc emery is a joke too, lighten up and get a sense of humor.

My exact issue is with dana beal dissing people as garbageheads. nobody
needs to be hearing that shit when I paid money to get in their and
watch
this, if i’m a garbagehead then i would have taken my money and spent
it on another bag. that was not called for. that’s my issue. I do not
need to pay money to see a show and then have someone who put it on diss
people for attending. especially stoners who are baked 24/7 saying that
shit. who you talking to, say it to yourself.

.g

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:02:17 -0800 Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:
Well said Carla. Kudos 2 u

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From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ;-)[B happy]
Date: November 29, 2003 at 8:22:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wouldn’t worry about the fluent; The Frenchies have their allegiances.

From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ūüėČ
Date: November 29, 2003 at 8:23:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

say waaaht !

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Indra/Denmark
Date: November 29, 2003 at 4:51:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have received information that I have not verified that ibogaine will be
restricted in Denmark within the next two months.

Howard

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ūüėČ
Date: November 29, 2003 at 2:43:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hahaha! Yes, it was difficult for me to understand too but I got the general message. I couldn’t understand shit of the French version!
English is a very difficult language to learn if you are foreign.
I have always wanted to learn to speak Spanish and learn to sign (sign language) but have yet to attempt either. I procrastinate EVERYTHING!

From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ūüėČ
Date: November 29, 2003 at 2:36:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In the United States alone, someone checks their email every 3 seconds….

hahahaha!!! Yes, I used a translator! I guess I should’ve made that clear? I
just really wanted to know what the French post said and thought some other
folks on the list might want to know too.
I am fluent only in English……but I guess you could tell that! ūüėČ
Peace!

ehehe… I was wondering about that… I speak a little French, and the
English translation was almost as hard for me to read as the French =)

From: lisa steckler <alex05301@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Survey-please help!
Date: November 29, 2003 at 12:58:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard – thank you for the suggestion; I am a student
in a psychology/sub abuse masters program at Antioch
New England Grad School.  I am finishing up my program
this year and am realizing how narrow some of the
approaches to substance abuse treatment are and
thought this info could at least broaden some of the
options people consider.  Thank you for your support.
-lisa

Lisa,

Are you a student in the class or the teacher?  In
either case as you are
asking for information I think it is appropriate you
identify yourself including
any academic credentials you may have.  Thanks

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist …
Date: November 29, 2003 at 8:37:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yipes! It’s been awhile since I’ve been able to read the list, it’s amazing to see so many responses to this thread. It’s good. I guess all I really need to clarify is that I’m not really as ‘bent’ as it may have come across. My point was intended to be simple: basically, i took the description of the interaction between Kroupa and Pinchbeck at the forum to be a little bit more than what I had personally experienced or perceived. I didn’t really think it was such a big deal…My second response was ¬†just a reaction to the s.o.b/saddam emery thing…I said I wouldn’t post anymore ’cause I think it’s kinda silly really. Funny too, mind you. I meant that I wasn’t going to post on this topic anymore, not on the list entirely…As you can see I’ve changed my mind about posting on this thread. I felt like I should share my thoughts now that it’s gone this deep and re-clarify…

Someone posted earlier that it would have been good to hear a synopsis of what was talked about, I think that’s a great idea as a lot of great information was shared. It was a totally worthwhile experience. The forum was filmed, I’m just waiting to get a copy of it so that we can post it on pot-tv for all to see. Stay tooned…

I’d love to see more co-operation between people in the ibo movement. Please don’t take my comments to be more than that. My reasons for wanting to see less focus on the nitty gritty is really directly related to my work. There’s so much to learn sometimes it seems slightly overwhelming, and when the focus get’s switched to well, whatever…it get’s a bit frustrating for me, but i’m openminded regardless and paying attention whenever possible. So don’t go git’n yer knickers in a knot over trivials…

On another note, perhaps now a new topic:

We’re in the process of creating a database of information for people who have undergone Ibo therapy. At the therapy house this means starting in our own backyard in B.C. and contacting service providers, therapists, counsellors, detox progs., insite, people working in all sorts of treatment modalities such as md’s, naturopaths, homeopaths, yoga instructors, nutrition counsellors, masseurs and others, as well as reps. from the compassion clubs, drug user advocacy groups etc…to create a list of people who are informed about ibo therapy and willing to offer their support to those who have experienced it and need support in aftercare (like Jaden).

It’s quite a task to take on but we’re hoping to have our first meeting soon and I think there’s going to be a strong group there. Hopefully we can at least begin with a links page that provides some options to check out.

The plan is to expand it into a database of these options available around the globe. Anyone interested in sending links/ideas/contact info please contact me off list at sandra@ibogatherapyhouse.org. It would be a useful tool for all of us I think.

thx and cheers out to all you freaks,

-madam madass saddam sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: <gboy@hush.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:15:12 -0800
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the ¬†¬†¬†Ibo/Activist …

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1

I agree with carla too, in 2 years i’ve posted to this list 3 times and
keep on reading it because it doesn’t bore me. I now got a inbox full
of hate mail or peeps who are saying right on all the peeps who rep ibo
are maniacs. I dont care about the hate i hit deleat, the peeps going
right on didnt understand anything I said because all their mail says
the same thing, everybody should be more like they are and theyre the
ones who should be doing all the talking except nobody cares to hear
it.
I liked the conf a lot, I loved dhoruba and I i love seeing patrick and
pinchbeck because its like two sides of a different world, homeboy is
a drug monster who’s done more of everything then near anybody i ever
heard of, pinchbeck is a burning man entheo weenie, they got a lot of
tension and put on a great show i’d pay just to see the two of them put
on a entheogen deathmatch ;-> no issues at all. if everybody did a science
talk i’d fall asleep its dull, the whole show was dope, nice combo of
everything. if saundra is going to be all bent out of shape over one
msg then smoke another bowl and calm down because thats bullshit, like
i say my opinion and i’m not allowed to? who elected you god. the people
dissing marc emery is a joke too, lighten up and get a sense of humor.

My exact issue is with dana beal dissing people as garbageheads. nobody
needs to be hearing that shit when I paid money to get in their and watch
this, if i’m a garbagehead then i would have taken my money and spent
it on another bag. that was not called for. that’s my issue. I do not
need to pay money to see a show and then have someone who put it on diss
people for attending. especially stoners who are baked 24/7 saying that
shit. who you talking to, say it to yourself.

.g

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:02:17 -0800 Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:
Well said Carla. Kudos 2 u

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=2nGt
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From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Philip K Dick spectrum – Physics of the Mysterious
Date: November 29, 2003 at 5:46:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Physics of the Mysterious

I. Introduction

I am going to talk about Time Travel. But, before I get to that most mysterious of subjects, there is some groundwork that must be dealt with first. This will be a series of notes that will appear at this place on the Web, one section at a time. I will add new stuff as often as I can, so that, little by little, there will be more and more until we get into the fun part, so please be patient. It is not a subject that can be rushed. The point is that I have little time. I have my work, I have my research, and also I am looking for avenues that will enable me to change from research in “recognized areas” to the “leading edge new problems” – and this involves seeking out those who are willing to finance the work necessary to develop completely new science and technologies. Thus, I simply cannot devote to these pages as much time as I would otherwise like. Nevertheless I feel it as a kind of an imperative, or duty, to work on this project – even if the tempo of new material arriving on the net will be slow and unequal….

The purpose of writing these notes and making them available through the Web is twofold:

1) I want to provide the non-expert Reader with first- hand information about the present state and possible future development of theoretical physics – mainly in relation to the material provided in the Cassiopaean sessions , but also to make comments on information from other “mysterious” sources – all through the ages.

2) I want to get as much feed-back as possible concerning all kinds of problems and questions discussed in these notes. I will appreciate all kinds of information, sharing of ideas or just receiving questions concerning topics that are not sufficiently (or not at all) discussed here.

A little about myself: I am a theoretical/mathematical physicist. For those interested in credentials – my data , curriculum vitae and list of publications are available through the Internet, at this website and others.

This being said I owe you, dear Reader, a warning and an explanation. I am considered to be AN EXPERT, but many of my views are not shared by other experts. I believe that my mind is more open than the minds of many of my colleagues. On the other hand, some of these colleagues believe that my mind is TOO open. So I have to hide from them many of my beliefs and not speak to them about a lot of things that I know. In this way I can publish papers in mainstream journals, speak at conferences, organize conferences and have a pretty good reputation. But to preserve this reputation I need to be very careful – just making a hint here and there that what I do publish is not all that I would like to tell….

I think I really need to tell you these things so that you will NOT get an erroneous idea that all physicists are of the same opinion. They are not. University physics is pretty conservative – which is not a bad attitude at all. We do need to be conservative – this distinguishes science from poetry and daydreaming. But, being too conservative has, in the past, been a great barrier and hindrance to scientific revolutions. If being conservative and “scientific” was the only correct approach, then we would have solved all the mysteries of our existence in the past several hundred years of the “age of science!” The truth is: we are only at the beginning.

But, perhaps I AM too open minded…. Perhaps my colleagues are right in being skeptical about anything that is not “established science.” I try to keep an open mind about THAT, as well!

What I want do on these pages is be open-minded and yet conservative. That is, all I write here will be presented in a moderate and conservative mode. Moreover, as you can see for yourself on my other web pages, I am of the opinion that physics must be always based on mathematics – the only reliable tool and a truly universal language. Without math we can talk about many things – but we are just TALKING. It is not yet science! And even if I believe that the domain of physics needs to be essentially extended, that it has to connect with – or even embrace – biology and psychology – that it has to become much less “physical” – it does not mean it needs to become less precise!

But still, no amount of math can take the place of the right inspiration. The study of physics consists in peeling away the layers of the outside appearances of things to reveal their hidden nature and meaning, and very often this inner nature is so deep and hidden that only mathematics can describe it. But, if there is no inspiration as to what might be the objective of the search, the peeling away process might end up being rather like an onion – when the layers are all gone, there is no longer anything there!

The new physics needs to be based on math – to an even greater degree than the old physics. It will be a new math, sure, but it will a rigorous math – a math of equations and algorithms and probabilities – a nonlinear math of complex structures and of transitions between these structures. The math of today is difficult and abstract, and the math of tomorrow might be yet more difficult to grasp, even if our computers will be able to do more and more of the abstract work for us. On the other hand, the new math may be incredibly simple and elegant – this could be the reason it has eluded the understanding of physicists today – that the most abstract of ideas are concealed behind a veil of utter, simple logic. This is why professional training is so important: it gives us tools, it teaches us the rigor of abstract thinking, it teaches us the logic of proving assertions, and it shows us the limits and uncertainties of mathematics itself. As we know from Bertrand Russell and Kurt Goedel: math has its paradoxes too!

2. Physics today.

Let me, first of all, share with you my views on the state of physics today. More on this subject can be found in my lecture Bioelectronics As Seen by a Theoretical Physicist. Even though this lecture was given at a bioelectronics symposium more than ten years ago, nothing really has changed since that time, and part of the predictions given there have already come true, so I am only repeating here much of what I said then. (I plan to post this entire lecture as soon as the translation is complete.)

Physics is what physicists do. And physicists do what they are paid to do. This is one of the reasons why so many of the brightest minds work on a short-time-scale reward basis, doing what is fashionable at a given time. This is the main reason why there is no progress at all in the fundamental areas. The clash between Einstein’s relativity theories – which describe classical gravity at macro-scales, and Bohr-Dirac-Heisenberg-Schroedinger quantum theories, providing phenomenology of micro-phenomena, – this clash is today even more dark and scary than it was seventy years ago.

There is no real progress.

Quantum Theory is supposed to be the greatest invention in science since the beginning of the study of deeper realities. The greatest success of Quantum Theory is considered to be Quantum Field Theory, such as the theory of a quantized electromagnetic field (photons) in interaction with quantized charged matter (electrons). The problem is, this theory is mathematically inconsistent. It involves wishful thinking rather than rigorous science! The only quantum field theories (in four dimensional space-time) that ARE free of contradictions, are so-called trivial ones; that is theories that describe particles that do not interact at all. These theories are mathematical exercises involving particles that are “dead,” that will never form atoms. It seems to be that a universe that is governed by quantum field theories that are free of contradictions would be a dead universe, a universe of no interaction.

One can build a non-trivial quantum field theory, which may even describe something real or interesting, but then it would necessarily contradict Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity; it would be a non-relativistic one.

This is the dilemma. If you want to have both Quantum Field Theory AND Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, then you’ve got a problem.

Thus, nontrivial relativistic quantum field theories in four space-time dimensions are divergent – they lead to infinities, and are mathematically inconsistent. Searching for the cure in fancy formal math (supersymmetry, superstrings, quantum groups) just does not work. New – fundamentally new – ideas are needed. Quantum theory is not understood at all – everyone is trying to “cook” by “changing” the recipes to suit the ingredients they have on hand, and this very often results in “Rock Soup.”

Part of the present-day problem is that Niels Bohr succeeded in molding the minds of so many theoretical physicists into the “no need to understand” mode and this has done a great disservice to the science, the new generations of scientists, and most of all, to humanity. In this day and time, it could be said, that we more desperately need to understand the Order of the Universe than ever before!

Yet there is hope. There are areas, even in the “recognized physics” where NEW is still possible. And, it is possible because more and more physicists understand how little they understand about quantum theory. Physicists are realizing, little by little, that even in such established areas as macroscopic electrodynamics there are problems that need major new rethinking: railguns, exploding wire arcs, sonoluminescence, present us with problems that are not easily answered within the standard paradigm and need, perhaps, a major re-thinking of the foundations.

Some of the problems are that we do not really understand the physics of conductivity and superconductivity. We realize that macroscopic quantum effects are more common than we ever thought. Sure, it is evident to everyone who goes to Circuit City that technology is progressing pretty fast in these areas; but the same cannot be said about our understanding!

What about gravitational physics?

Many of the important questions are still unanswered. The old Mach principle is still a subject of serious debate and we do not know what to do with singularities like black holes. They badly need quantum physics, but, once again, quantum physics becomes inconsistent when married with gravity. So we really do not know where we are.

We do not know if gravity is a fundamental force or, perhaps, it is a collective and composite phenomenon. Some physicists want to explain electromagnetism in terms of gravity. Others want to derive gravity from electromagnetism.

There is a lot of talk about antigravity or gravity shielding at the most fundamental levels and perhaps “antigravity” or gravity shielding is a real effect? No one can agree, and little progress is being made except to disagree. You would be amazed at the battles that rage in the ivory towers of academia!

We do not even know (at least not from textbooks or physics journals) if antimatter is attracted or repelled by matter. Perhaps tachyons – particles travelling faster than light – do exist? Perhaps space-time can have causal loops and telephoning into the past is possible? Perhaps quantum tunneling phenomena involves sending information faster than light? Perhaps magnetic monopoles exist and play an important role in biological systems? Or, perhaps, the fifth dimension is more than just a mathematical device of providing a unified description of gravity and electromagnetism?

Who knows?

All these topics ARE discussed in professional journals, but with no conclusion, no agreement, no cigar.

Too much research is in “safe” areas – producing nothing but “papers.” The truth is that, Physicists, to make their living, must produce papers, must be “quoted;” and so they quote each other; colleagues quote colleagues and produce graduate students who quote their masters, after which they become masters, quoting each other, and producing graduate students who quote them, in an endless cycle of life in the aforementioned ivory towers.

And this is not something unique in physics. Not at all! It is true in other fields of study, too. But in physics the results are really bad: there has been no apparent progress in our understanding of Nature for seventy long years…. And nature REALLY needs to be understood, because things are getting a little out of hand out there in the “real” world.

Well, perhaps it is not THAT bad!

We all know that there is a lot of progress in certain areas, especially in technology based on quantum physics. We also know that certain areas are so sensitive that any progress therein is so closely monitored that it hardly finds its way to journal pages. And also, it is the physicists who have more open minds than others that move to new, interdisciplinary, areas of research, putting pieces of the puzzle together, blazing some isolated new trails for others. So, perhaps, after all, it is not THAT bad?

Well, I think it is bad enough. But, as Bertrand Russell pointed out ,

“Meantime, the world in which we exist has other aims. But it will pass away, burned up in the fire of its hot passions: and from its ashes will spring a new and younger world, full of fresh hope, with the light of morning in its eyes.”

3. “We are you in the future”

This is what “they” declare : that “they” – The Cassiopaeans – 6th density Unified Thought Form Beings of Light – are us in the future. What a bizarre concept. Or is it?

Is that possible? Can such a statement find a place in accepted theories? Or it is in an evident contradiction with everything that we – that is, physicists – know about Nature and its laws?

Putting aside for the moment the issue of whether existence in a pure state of consciousness is possible, is travelling in time possible, even if only in theory? Is sending and receiving information from the future or sending information into the past allowed by our present theories of relativity and quantum mechanics? If information can be sent, does this also imply that physical matter can be “sent,” via some sort of TransDimensional Remolecularization? And if so what are the laws, what are the restrictions? What are the means?

Well, frankly speaking, we do not know, but we may have a clue. Kurt Goedel, after he became famous for his work on foundations of mathematics, went on to study the Einstein general theory of relativity and made an important contribution to physics: he discovered a class of otherwise reasonable cosmological solutions of Einstein equations – except for one point: they contained causal loops!

At first these Causal Loops were dismissed by relativists as being “too crazy”. The arguments against these model universes even became rather personal, commenting upon the state of mind of the inventor! (A not terribly unusual phenomenon in the heated debates within so-called “ivory towers” of academia.)

A “Causal Loop” means the same thing as “Time Loop.” It can be described as going into the future and ending up where you started at the original time and place. It is called “Causal” because, in Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, Time is a relative concept and different observers can experience Time differently, so the term “causal” is used to avoid using the term “time.”

But, little by little, it was realized that causal – or Time – loops CAN appear in other solutions of Einstein equations as well – usually they correspond to some kind of “rotation” of the universe.

Causal loops make time travel not only possible, but probable. But then, causal loops lead to unacceptable logical paradoxes, and physics does not like such paradoxes at all – they are a serious problem!

But, the subject of communicating with the past or receiving information from the future IS being discussed in physics even in terms of the flat, not-curved-at-all space-time of Lorentz and Minkowski. Hypothetical faster-than-light particles – tachyons – can serve as the communication means. They make an “anti-telephone” – a telephone into the past – possible.

But do tachyons exist? Or CAN they exist?

Well, that is still a question that has not been answered definitively for some.

And, the truth is that paradoxes must never be ignored. They always indicate that some important lesson is to be learned; that some essential improvement or change is necessary. The same holds true for the paradoxes involved in the idea of receiving information from the future. We cannot simply go back into Saturday and tell ourselves the winning lottery numbers of Sunday. If this were possible, then it should also be possible for some future, future, self to tell a future self NOT to tell! Thus we have a paradox: we, in the future, have intervened into the past making our communication from the future impossible!

A paradox: if we communicated, we have not communicated, and if we do not communicate, then we have communicated! Impossible in a linear, non-branching universe!

Is there a possible escape from the paradox, an escape that leaves a door open, even if only a little – for our anti-telephone?

Indeed, there is, and not just one, but several ways out.

First of all – the evident paradox disappears if we admit the possibility that the communication channels are inherently noisy; that is a normal situation when we deal with quantum phenomena. So, if the communication into the past is a quantum effect – we are saved from evident paradoxes. Quantum Theory can be useful!

Sending a signal into the past, we are never 100% sure if the message will be delivered without distortion. And conversely, receiving info from the future we are never 100% sure if this comes from an authentic broadcast or is a spontaneous and random creation of the receiving end. If this is the case, and if certain quantitative, information – that is, theoretic relations between receiving and transmitting ends are secured to hold – then there are no more paradoxes even with reasonably efficient information channels.

In other words: there CAN be broadcasts from the future to the past, but there will be few “receivers,” and of those few, even fewer that are properly tuned. And even those that are properly tuned may be subject to “static.” Even if there is no static, those receivers that can receive pure information will experience the static of “non-belief” and distortion after the fact.

There is also another aspect of such an information transfer which is that the probabilities involved are connected with a CHOICE EVENT; with the choosing of one among many possible futures.

It may happen that branching of the universe corresponds to each such event. Branching of the universe into an infinite tree of decisions has been discussed within quantum measurement theory – it even has the name of “Many Worlds interpretation of quantum theory.”

Two of the well-known physicists who consider the many worlds interpretation more than just an exercise in theorizing are John Archibald Wheeler and David Deutsch and you may wish to obtain their books for a deeper understanding.

The Many Worlds Interpretation has one serious weakness: it has no built in algorithm for providing the timing of the branchings. Thus it is a certain framework rather than a complete theory.

There is, however, a theory that fills in this gap in the Many Worlds Interpretation – and this theory I know quite well, and in fact I know it better than most others for the simple reason that I developed it in collaboration with Philippe Blanchard (University of Bielefeld ) in the last six or so years as an integral part of the Quantum Future Project. It is called Event Enhanced Quantum Theory (EEQT for short notation). (A complete list of references and much more info on this subject can be found on my “Quantum Future ” project page).

The fact that our generally accepted theories of the present do not prevent us from thinking that time travel is, perhaps, possible, does not necessarily imply that we do know how to build the time machine!

On the other hand, it is perhaps possible that the time machine already exists and is in use, even if we do not understand the principle of its work, because it goes much too far beyond our present theoretical and conceptual framework. It is also possible that some of the machines we think are serving a totally different purpose do, in fact, act as time machines. Many things are possible…

Now, back to superluminal communication, or “channelling” in general and the Cassiopaeans in particular: the fact that sending information into the past is possible does not necessarily imply that any information that pretends to be sent from the future is such indeed!

But, if we generally accept that extraterrestrial life is possible, and we use all of our knowledge and resources to search for life beyond our Earth, then we also need to include the understanding that receiving information >from the future is equally possible. With this perspective, science should search for any traces of such information.

But, what kind of information channels are to be monitored in search of such broadcasts? What kind of antenna arrays do we need? How must we direct them into a particular “future time”? Say, into the year 3000? Or 30,000? Or 300,001?

My answer is: nothing like that is necessary. All that we need we already have, namely OUR MINDS.

And indeed, assuming that the knowledge and technology of the future is (or CAN BE) much more advanced than ours, then it is only natural that any broadcast from the future will be addressed directly into the mind.

Even today there are techniques of acting directly on our minds. They are not always used for our benefit; nevertheless they do exist. But if communications from the future are possible, why don’t we receive these broadcasts on a daily basis? If our minds can serve as receivers, then why aren’t we all aware of the transmissions?

This is a legitimate question and we will address it somewhat later as there is a more urgent topic to be addressed first: what PHYSICS has to say about MIND?

If You, the Reader, have your own point of view that supports or contradicts the view presented below – please let me know it. I do welcome any comment or suggestion…. So, feel free and e-mail me at: ark@cassiopaea.org .

4. Mind and Physics

Isn’t “mind” a domain of philosophy, psychology and cognitive sciences?

Or, is mind just a function of a brain; and isn’t the brain just a computing device?

There is no easy answer. There are a lot of interesting theories; a lot of controversy; a lot of “true believers” in this or that idea. There are “new age” physics books, Penrose bestsellers, Sarfatti’s site on the internet, mail-lists and newsgroups discussing the subjects of MIND and CONSCIOUSNESS and so on.

I want to give here my own small perspective, based on my own research, my own experiences, my own conclusions.

First of all: why does it seem to me that I am qualified to discuss the subject?

The answer is pretty simple. The fact is, all my work on EEQT was directed toward one end: to make Quantum Theory as OBJECTIVE as possible; to eliminate any trace of “observer” from its (that is: Quantum Theory) dictionary; to formulate – reformulate – Quantum Theory in such a way that “observers” and “observables” and even “measurement” would be replaced by precise and totally objective concepts. I wanted to eliminate “Mind” entirely from the equation.

By doing this I was really pursuing John Bell’s programme – a programme that he did not have enough time to carry out to a conclusion due to his untimely death – a crusade to discover an exact mathematical formulation describing both micro and macro phenomena so as to produce either a real synthesis of quantum and relativity theories, or to be able to construct a viable alternative to one or both of them. You might want to have a look at his published book Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Theory, and also his papers Against Measurement and Towards exact quantum mechanics.

Our theory, EEQT, was presented at the conference “Quantum Theory Without Observers”, held in Bielefeld, Germany, in July 1995. (Those of you who wish to go deeper can read a review of this subject from the point of view of Bohmian Mechanics: the recent paper by Sheldon Goldstein at Rutgers.) Our presentation was accompanied by a computer simulation of a run of a “measuring device” coupled to an individual quantum system. Our Event Generating Algorithm produced a sequence of “clicks” that were accompanying “quantum jumps” – without any intervention of an “observer”. Moreover, the standard “quantum measurement postulates” can be derived from EEQT’s “objective algorithm.” In our papers – see the bibliography – we have stressed repeatedly that “mind” and “consciousness” and “observer” are not needed by quantum theory. Quantum physics can do without these concepts!

So, you see, I AM qualified to discuss the problems of mind and consciousness and their importance to physics – because I spent years trying to get rid of them!

Did I succeed?

Yes and no. My views started to shift after having an extensive discussion with H.P. Stapp. (You can easily find links to some of his papers available through the internet via the Sarfatti link , but you can also try to read his other papers, especially his most recent paper – for the X-th Max Born Symposium “Quantum Future” that we (Philippe and myself) organized, in Wroclaw September, 1997 – the paper is available from his site at LBNL. Stapp has published a book Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics – a collection of his papers on the subject.)

In a long series of e-mails, I tried to convince him that quantum theory does not need “mind” or “observer” – at least not any more than any other branch of physics. He insisted that it is MIND that is responsible for all that HAPPENS. It is MIND that is responsible for each and every final act of reduction of the “wave packet,” for each and every “event,” for each and every “quantum jump.” And he pointed out the weakest place in our new quantum measurement theory (EEQT), namely: our theory worked well at the “phenomenological level” but could not aspire to become a “fundamental theory.” Indeed, our theory assumed that a part of the world is “non-quantum,” a part of the world had to remain “classical;” and it was this part that was surely related to the measuring device, to “perception,” to “mind.”

We could not find anything else in all of physics that would have to remain classical, unquantized.

So, willy-nilly, I started to study Stapp’s papers again – but now with a more positive attitude; namely, with the idea of applying the powerful mathematical machinery of EEQT to the Mind-Matter interface. But this is another story; it is part of the current Quantum Future Project.

Speaking of the “Mind,” we – physicists – do not know where or how to put it into our equations. Some of us deny that such a necessity exists. Klaus Hepp at ETH Zurich, for instance – one of the best mathematical physicists some twenty years ago – became totally engaged in brain research. He believes neurophysiology has a beautiful and promising future and, after we learn more and more about the functioning of the nervous system, the necessity of using the term “mind” will become less and less requisite – the understanding of the workings of the physical structure will obviate the necessity for looking outside physiology for an abstract, non-physical “entity.”

On the other hand, Nobel Laureate John Eccles believed that there is more than just one “physical world”. In Self and its Brain, co-authored by Karl Popper, we find an extensive discussion of three different WORLDS; only one of them being the physical world that is studied by physics. The idea of the three different worlds, World I, II and III – belongs to Popper rather than Eccles, but Eccles is sympathetic to the idea, and the title of his other little book, ” How the Self Controls its Brain ” is suggestive by itself. The book reproduces his paper, co-authored with a German physicist, F. Beck, Quantum Aspects of Brain Activity and the Role of Consciousness . Well, in my own opinion the paper is rather speculative and inconclusive, but its very existence gives us some idea about the debates in which physicists and neurologists (but also the artificial intelligence community) are engaged about “mind,” and whether it is a physical artifact or a pre-existent state of consciousness.

Much of this discussion can also be found on the internet – you may like to visit quantum-d archives . This list, VERY active at one time, has become quiet lately. But it has seen lot of hot discussions – especially concerning the Penrose-Hameroff ideas about making gravity and microtubules responsible for all the fantastic deeds of the consciousness.

A lot can be said about this Penrose-Hameroff theory. It has been criticized by many, and some of this critique is expected to appear in the proceedings of the “Quantum Future” symposium mentioned above . It is not my intention to discuss this topic here as it would become too ponderous and lengthy.

Let me just say this: I do believe that gravity is the most fundamental of all interactions; I do believe that it is related to consciousness and quantum phenomena, but I do not think that the Penrose-Hameroff theory is a step forward. Even so, I enjoy reading the books by Roger Penrose. I enjoy them and – at the same time – they induce sad feelings in my heart… How is it possible that having such bright minds, such nice ideas – we understand so little, the progress of our understanding is so slow – if there is any progress at all!

Summing up: even if we are not yet 100% sure that mind and consciousness must be included into a consistent scheme of quantum theory, my own work toward elimination of these concepts has shown me, at least, the limitations of “pure physical” theories.

Thus, at present, I am searching for ways to integrate mind and consciousness into physics – be it on the basis of an extended EEQT algorithm, or some other, more radical approach.

We need now to return to our question: if communications from the future are possible, why don’t we receive these broadcasts on a daily basis?

If our minds can serve as receivers, then why aren’t we all aware of the transmissions?

I think that the answer has to do with multiple realities and branching universes, and perhaps any civilization which would receive messages from the future on a daily basis has ceased to exist because communication through time is a very dangerous game. You produce paradoxes and these paradoxes remove the paradoxical universes from the repository of possible universes; if you create a universe with paradoxes, it destroys itself either completely or partially. Perhaps just intelligence is removed from this universe because it is intelligence that creates paradox. Perhaps we are very fortunate that even if we can receive some of these messages from the future, we still continue to exist.

Suppose our civilization were to advance to the point where everyone can communicate with themselves in the past; they have a computer with a special program and peripheral device that does this. It becomes the latest fad: everyone is communicating with themselves in the past to warn of dangers or upcoming calamities or bad choices, or to give lottery numbers or winning horses. But, what is seen as a “bad choice” or “calamity” for one, could be seen to be a “good event” or “benefit” to someone else!

So, the next step would be that “hackers” would begin to break into the systems and send false communications into the past to deliberately create bad choices and calamities for some in order to produce benefits for themselves or others.

Then, the first individual would see that false information has been sent and would go into their system and go back even earlier to warn themselves that false information was going to be sent back by an “imposter” and how to tell that it was false.

Then the hacker would see this, and go back in time to an even earlier moment and give false information that someone was going to send false information (that was really true) that false information (that was really false) was going to be sent, thereby confusing the issue.

This process could go on endlessly with constant and repeated communications into the past, one contradicting the other, one signal cancelling out the other, with the result that it would be exactly the same as if there were NO communication into the past!

There is, also, the very interesting possiblity that the above scenario IS exactly what is taking place in our world.

It is also possible that, whenever a civilization comes to the point that it can manipulate the past and thereby change the present, it would most probably destroy itself, and probably its “branch” of the universe, unless there comes a cataclysmic event before this happens which would act as a kind of “control system” or way of reducing the technological possibilities to zero again, thus obviating the potentials of universal chaos. In this way, cataclysmic events could be a sort of preventive or pre-emptive strike against such manipulations, and may, in fact, be the result of engineered actions of benevolent selves in the future who see the dangers of communicating with ourselves in the past!

So, the probability is this: if there IS communication from the future, it MAY, in fact, be constantly received by each and every one of us as an ongoing barrage of lies mixed with truth. Thus, the problem becomes more than just “tuning” to a narrow band signal, because clearly the hackers can imitate the signal and have become VERY clever in delivering their lies disguised as “warm and fuzzy” truths; the problem becomes an altogether different proposition of believing nothing and ACTING as though EVERYTHING is misleading, gathering data from all quarters, and then making the most INFORMED choice possible with full realization that it may be in error!

What is important here is this: we can’t prevent hackers from hacking. But, what we can do is make every effort to prevent them from hacking into OUR systems by erecting barriers of knowledge and awareness. Hackers are always looking for an “easy hack,” (except for those few who really LIKE a challenge), and will back away as you make your system more and more secure.

How do you make your computer (or yourself) immune to hackers?

It is never 100% secure, but if all preventative measures are taken, and we constantly observe for the signs of hackers – system disruption, loss of “memory,” or energy, damaged files, things that don’t “fit,” that are “out of context,” – we can reduce the possiblity of hacking. But, we can only do this if we are AWARE of hackers; if we KNOW that they will attempt to break into our system in the guise of a “normal” file, or even an operating system or program that promises to “organize” our data for greater efficiency and ease of function or “user friendliness,” while at the same time, acting as a massive drain on our energy and resources – RAM and hard drive.

As a humorous sidenote: we could think of Windows Operating system as the “ultimate hacker from the future” who, disguised as a sheep, is a wolf devouring our hard disk and RAM, and sending our files to God only knows where every time we connect via the internet!

And of course, there are viruses. Whenever we insert a floppy disk or CD into our computer, we risk infection by virii which can, slowly or rapidly, distort or destroy ALL the information on our computer, prevent ANY peripheral functions, and even “wipe” the hard disk of all files to replace them with endless replications of the viral nonsense.

The human analogy to this is the many religions and “belief” systems that have been “programmed” into our cultures, and our very lives, via endless “Prophet/God” programs, replacing, bit by bit, our own thinking with the “dogma and doctrines of the faith.”

Enough of the computer analogies. I think that the reader can imagine any number of variations on the theme and come to an understanding of how vulnerable we are to “disinformation” in the guise of truth from either the future, the past, or the present.

Before entering into the next subject – the Anthropic Principle and its ramification – let me first make some comments concerning some peculiar recent developments on my personal plane. I want to talk about these things, because they bear a direct relation to these pages.

In 1998 I removed all my web pages, mostly dealing with the Quantum Future project, from the web server at my home institution .

Why?

Because a colleague and director of the institute there decided that I must not link my Quantum Future pages to this particular subject that you are reading now.

For what reason?

Let me quote him: “You may have your personal views on quantum mechanics, but your personal views concerning the question of who or what are the Cassiopaeans should not be found on the Institute’s page, similar to your personal views concerning Snow White.”

He even forbade placing any – even indirect – link to related subjects!

I wrote him back that “my personal view on quantum theory is such that one must not ignore the question that, if transmissions from the future are possible, can the Cassiopaean transmissions be investigated from this point of view?”

Apparently the very thought about time loops and their possible consequences scares SOME “serious scientists” to death; their brains start to shake like jelly; they simply refuse to even discuss the problem; they ban it without any discussion.

Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov, a Russian physicist who spent many years in the Siberian Gulag wrote: “Intellectual freedom is essential to human society… Freedom of thought is the only guarantee against an infection of people by mass myths, which, in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues, can be transformed into bloody dictatorships.” (Progress, Coexistence, and Intellectual Freedom; secretly circulated in Moscow, 1968, tr. N.Y. Times, July 22, 1968)

Fortunately SOME physicists are open-minded. John Bell, David Deutsch, Henry Stapp, John Archibald Wheeler, Brian Josephson, Roger Penrose, all of them have put forward, at some point in time, their brilliant ideas and have blazed the trail for others.

5. Anthropic Principle

A Physics News service to which I subscribe brought the following:

The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News

Number 360 February 25, 1998 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY. An anthropic argument is one which suggests that certain physical conditions, such as the oxygen content of the atmosphere or the Earth’s distance from the Sun, are not inadvertently beneficial to intelligent life, but might actually be especially fine-tuned for life. This viewpoint has been slow to gain acceptance among scientists because anthropic logic seems to defy the arrow of time: was not the universe here long before man evolved? Yes, but there may be more than one universe (as some theories predict), or the universe we are in may have many domains, each with different physical parameters. And we would, according to these arguments, find ourselves in that domain that had just the right physics ingredients, just as cold-blooded reptiles thrive only in warm climates. Physicists at the Bartol Research Institute at the University of Delaware (contact Stephen Barr, 302-831-6883) and the University of Massachusetts (John Donoghue, 413-545- 1940) consider what the anthropic principle has to say not about atmospheric oxygen and Earth orbit, but about parameters of even more fundamental importance: the mass of the Higgs boson (the hypothetical particle that endows all other particles with mass), the cosmological constant (essentially the energy density of the universal vacuum), and the Planck mass (the energy scale—thought to prevail in the very early universe—associated with gravity, and the energy at which all known physical forces would have been equivalent). (V. Agrawal et al., Physical Review Letters, 2 March 1998.)
So, you see, physicists are discussing seriously what is called the “anthropic principle”… At least some physicists. Some others, (like my colleague JL, mentioned above), try to use whatever power they still have to ban such discussions. History repeats itself … nihil novi under the sun.

But back to physics: we are on the Internet now, and we are free to discuss ALL implications of ALL things, (Well… up to a point, of course because, being responsible, we bear in mind that although “Knowledge Protects, Ignorance Endangers, ” knowledge can also be used for evil purposes.)

I am not quite sure who invented the “anthropic principle” or who coined the term. I suspect it all started with Wheeler and Dyson. If you are interested in the subject, there is a book by Barrow and Tippler, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle . There is also a book by a well known relativist and cosmologist George Ellis, Before the Beginning . George Ellis is a well known relativist and cosmologist, past president of the International Society for General Relativity and Gravitation, a well known co-author (with Stephen Hawking) of “The Large Scale Structure of Space Time, ” and Fellow of the University of Cape Town. You can also visit his home page at the Mathematics Department of UCT.

In Before the Beginning , Ellis discusses the “fine tuning” of the physical parameters of “our” universe, analyzes the apparent “coincidences” (if one of the several important parameters had a value even slightly different from the actual one, then life in such a universe would be impossible), and comes to the conclusion that there are five possible explanations for these parameters to be conducive to life: (for more about anthropic principle in general, and about George Ellis in particular see the files ellis.html , anthcoi.html , anthro8.html at Al Schroeder site.)

1: Pure chance.

2: Greater probability: despite the seeming unliklihood of such coincidences, for reasons unexplained, we would tend towards that state.

3. Logical necessity. Only one set of laws is consistent in nature.

4. An ensemble theory…which would have many universes, either in time, space, or different space-time continuums, most of them lifeless, and we are just the luck of the draw.

5. Or an intelligent Creator.

He feels he cannot a priori neglect that last as a possible explanation.

This material on the subject of the anthropic principle has been discussed at such length so that you will know that there IS a very deep issue in the study of physics which has not been solved no matter how many ways have been tried in approaching it. Now, once we know there IS some problem, once we know some physicists do feel somewhat uneasy without admitting it, let us see if we can add something new to all this discussion. Let us see how the problem relates to OUR problem, namely to the possible existence of – quoting from Cassiopaeans – “us in the future;” to the problems of time loops, time travel, branching universes and complexity of creation…

First of all I do not think that the “fine tuning” of physical parameters has anything to do with “an intelligent Creator.” I do know that there are some – even many – people trying to use the facts of physics to “prove the existence of God.” I do not think it is a good thing to do. It does no good – neither to Physics nor to God – the main reason being that, while Physics deals with, or at least tries to deal with, what is outside of us, the question of God is our internal question – to which the answer should be sought inside us. (If you are interested in my opinion on this subject, you can read the exchange that I had, on this subject, with Tom Elliot from Anchorage, Alaska).

Let us discuss the first four possibilities listed above.

“Pure chance” we can discard as being no explanation at all: the lazy way out. The “probabilities” in question are so small that we can safely discard the “pure chance” hypothesis.

The next in order: “greater probability despite the seeming unliklihood…”

Yes, indeed, there is such a possibility. Assigning probabilities is a tricky business. Thus it MAY happen that an event which, at present, seems to us be very unlikely, after the discovery of one new fact or relation that we were not aware of before, becomes not only likely, but also unavoidable.

Can it be the case with “fine tuning” of physical constants and parameters of our universe? In principle, YES, it can be so…. For instance if, and ONLY if, explanation 5 is the correct one! Thus, it is a circular argument.

Thus, let us move to the next possibility: “logical necessity.”

Again, this is no explanation all. Indeed, why there should be any “logic” in the universe? The very fact that there ARE any laws of nature, the very fact that there IS logic itself, is already a puzzle.

And so, what remains is the “ensemble theory” – there are many universes.

We are just in one of them. Some of them are lifeless, some others are short-lived ones; no one will ever wonder about them, because they will never create any form of intelligence. And there are also some endowed with life forms – all kinds of life, the possibilities being endless.

This does look like a good start for an “explanation”. Or better, as a good start for a path full of adventures and leading we-have-no-idea where.

And this is the path we have to travel. This path will force us to think in new categories; it will force us to open our minds to new ways of thinking – about ourselves, in particular, and about life in general.

Just to give a moderate example of where such a concept can lead, let me quote from ” Life in the universe ” by Peter Dunsby:

“[In a paper by Ellis and Brundrit (1979) they have developed] some of the consequences of spatially homogeneous universes with infinite spatial sections (as in the usual low density and critical density universe models). In any such universe, in a large enough volume not only is the probability of life unity, but the probability of existence of an identical being to each of us is also unity (because the genetic code is a finite code). But there are an infinity of such volumes in an infinite universe, so we should then each have an infinite set of identical twins – leading to the further implication that in this infinite set there should be some of our twins with arbitrarily close histories to ours …. and so on. The point here is that we often glibly talk about spatially infinite universe models, without really taking in the implications of that situation. This example makes clear how strange they can be.”

And this excerpt makes clear how strange the science of physics can be!

6. Extraterrestrial Life

So, is there extraterrestrial life in the Universe? Let us first quote from the “official sources.”

NASA declares:

(Note: as of August 11, 1999 this page is not accessible any longer, even if there is still a link.) “What is the U.S. government doing to investigate UFOs “; from NASA FAQ’s page

“No branch of the United States Government is currently involved with responsibility for investigations into the possibility of alien life on other planets or for investigating Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO’s). The U.S. Air Force (USAF) and NASA have had intermittent, independent investigations of the possibility of alien life on other planets; however, none of these has produced factual evidence that life exists on other planets, nor that UFO’s are related to aliens.

“Under Project Blue Book (1947 to 1969), the Air Force investigated UFO’s; then in 1977, NASA was asked to examine the possibility of resuming UFO investigations. After studying all of the facts available, it was determined that nothing would be gained by further investigation, since there was an absence of tangible evidence.

“In October 1992, NASA was directed by Congress to begin a detailed search for artificial radio signals from other civilizations under the NASA Towards Other Planetary Systems (TOPS)/High Resolution Microwave Survey (HRMS) program (also known as the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence project). Congress directed NASA to end this project in October 1993, citing pressures on the US Federal budget. The HRMS did not detect any confirmed signal before it was stopped. However, similar work will continue in a more limited manner through efforts of private groups and through academic institutions. The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Institute (SETI Institute) in Mountain View, CA, effectively replaced the Government project, borrowing the signal processing system from NASA. The SETI Institute is a nonprofit corporation conducting research in a number of fields including all science and technology aspects of astronomy and planetary sciences, chemical evolution, the origin of life, biological evolution, and cultural evolution.”

SETI states:

“Over the last half-century, scientists have developed a theory of cosmic evolution that predicts that life is a natural phenomenon likely to develop on planets with suitable environmental conditions. Scientific evidence shows that life arose on Earth relatively quickly, suggesting that life will occur on similar planets orbiting sun-like stars. With the recent discoveries of extra-solar planetary systems, and the suggestive evidence that life may once have existed on Mars, this scenario appears even more likely.

“Additionally, one should keep in mind that we are only one planet around a very ordinary star. There are roughly 400 billion other stars in our Galaxy, and nearly 100 billion other galaxies. It would be extraordinary if we were the only thinking beings in all these enormous realms.”(…)

“The Drake Equation , originally developed as an agenda for a 1961 scientific meeting, provides a way of estimating the number of intelligent civilizations existing in our galaxy that might be broadcasting signals. Among the factors considered are the number of sun-like stars in our galaxy, the fraction of habitable planets supporting communicating civilizations, etc. When these various factors are multiplied together, one can compute N, the number of transmitting civilizations. Unfortunately, many of the factors are only poorly known, so estimates of N range from one (we are alone in the Galaxy) to thousands or even millions.”

At the same time NASA lists ” Some Intriguing Emerging Physics “:

“Science and technology are continuing to evolve. In just the last few years, there have been new, intriguing developments in the scientific literature. Although it is still too soon to know whether any of these developments can lead to the desired propulsion breakthroughs, they do provide new clues that did not exist just a few short years ago. A snapshot of just some of the possibilities is listed below:

1988; Morris and Thorne: Theory and assessments for using wormholes for faster-than-light space travel.

1988; Herbert: Book outlining the loopholes in physics that suggest that faster-than-light travel may be possible.

1989; Puthoff: Theory extending Sakharov’s 1968 work to suggest that gravity is a consequential effect of the vacuum electromagnetic zero point fluctuations.

1992; Podkletnov and Nieminen: Report of superconductor experiments with anomalous results — evidence of a possible gravity shielding effect.

1994; Haisch, Rueda, and Puthoff: Theory suggesting that inertia is a consequential effect of the vacuum electromagnetic zero point fluctuations.

1994; Alcubierre: Theory for a faster-than-light “warp drive” consistent with general relativity.

1996; Eberlein: Theory suggesting that the laboratory observed effect of sonoluminescence is extraction of virtual photons from the electromagnetic zero point fluctuations.”

So, what we learn from these official sources is not much.

Perhaps extraterrestrial life exists, but it is not the business of NASA.

Perhaps time loops do exist, and NASA is even looking into the theories that deal with creating special space-time configurations (warp-drive, wormholes, tachyonic and negative matter generated gravity effects), but NASA is interested in these theories only from the point of view of building new efficient propulsion systems.

Is there anybody interested in other possible consequences of the new physics?

Perhaps. Perhaps these are privately funded organizations (like SETI). Perhaps, (and almost certainly), other government agencies that can finance more risky programs, with other goals in mind than just space travel.

And here we come to the point where I have to share with you my own position – position of an open-minded theoretical physicist. I consider myself open-minded enough to listen to everybody, but independent enough to make my own final judgements. After surfing through the net I have found that some of my views have already been spelled out by a somewhat kindred soul: the “theatrical physicist” (as he used to call himself), Jack Sarfatti. I share with him many of the same interests; we have some common friends and heroes whom we like to quote (David Bohm, David Deutsch, David Finkelstein, Henry Stapp), but apparently he is much more active in the business of public relations while I spend all my time on working and on active research.

So, what is my point of view?

First of all it seems to me, and in fact I am even pretty sure, that what we know, our present “science,” is not even the tip of the iceberg of what might be known or maybe even what IS known in certain circles. We know very little and we understand even less. We are so much constrained in our perception, our thinking abilities, that we can see and process only one side of a multi-faceted reality; and even so, with a lot of distortion. Some of our concepts are pretty good and objective, some others are of poor quality and subjective. But even those that are sound and objective (like atoms, light, energy), even these are grasped by us only partially, with much more veiled from us due, it seems, to our own genetic restriction.

So, I think that Reality is multi-faceted and multi-leveled and we are consciously experiencing only one (or a few) of the existing levels and/or facets. The multi-leveled and multi-faceted Realit includes: many worlds, many realms, parallel and perpendicular universes, higher dimensions, higher levels of intelligence and of perception, and very likely a consciousness of which we cannot even conceive.

Some of these concepts have already been integrated into theoretical physics (many worlds, parallel universes, higher dimensions), and can be studied – at least theoretically – with mathematical rigor; while those dealing with mind, consciousness, intelligence, are yet to be integrated. Once that is done, once we admit and realize that that material existence is not all that can be thought of and dealt with using mathematical rigor – new vistas, new hopes and new goals will appear on the horizon. And by doing this, WE will take charge of the evolutionary development of life. BY doing this we will choose to obey our own call from the future. By doing this we will make real what is now only virtual.

I believe that the Universe has Purpose, that it is much like a computer program of great complexity, and that “we” – the IGUS-es – have a role in its evolution. For a while our role can be described simply as “debugging units.” In short, my present answer to the question “why are we here?” reads: DEBUGGING THE UNIVERSE.

Universes without life, without feedback from the “observers” have only virtual existence, their future is closed; while “our” future, as well as the future of “our universe,” is in my opinion, to large extent, OPEN.

The question of existence of other forms of life is, in particular, one of these tricky questions whose answers are “open”. YOU, the Reader, can choose to live in a universe with a “no” answer, but you can also choose to live in a “yes” universe.

I am not saying the choice is going to be easy, or possible at all. Every choice needs an effort. The more important the choice, the more effort it needs. Without making this effort we are simply machines, and then the choices are being made for us – either by pure chance or by others.

So, what I am saying here relates, to some extent, to some of the ideas expanded in Jung’s ” Flying Saucers. A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies .” Let me quote from an article by John Fraim :

‘ Jung concluded that “news affirming the existence of UFOs is welcome, but that skepticism seems to be undesirable. . .to believe that UFOs are real suits the opinion, whereas disbelief is to be discouraged…. There is a tendency all over the world to believe in saucers and to want them to be real, unconsciously helped along by a press that otherwise has no sympathy with the phenomenon.” Jung then asked a most incisive question: “Why should it be more desirable for saucers to exist than not?”

‘For Jung, the “desirability” of UFO existence relates to a psychic need and is connected with signaling the end of one era and the beginning of another. It was not a new phenomenon but, rather, one that manifested the change of archetypes that constellate around the end of one age and the beginning of another. As he wrote in the introduction to Flying Saucers: “It is not presumption that drives me, but my conscience as a psychiatrist that bids spare those few who will fulfill my duty and prepare those few which are in accord with the end of an era.”

‘Jung found precedence for these archetypal harbingers of change in preceding periods of history that involved the collective psyche: As we know from ancient Egyptian history, there are manifestations of psychic changes which always appear at the end of one Platonic month and at the beginning of another. Apparently they are changes in the constellations of psychic dominants, of the archetypes, or “gods” as they used to be called, which bring about, or accompany, long-lasting transformation of the collective psyche.

‘The changes in archetypes seem to have a connection to major movements in astrological houses. “This transformation, ” noted Jung, “started in the historical era and left its traces first in the passing of the aeon of Taurus into that of Aries, and then of Aries into Pisces, whose beginning coincides with the rise of Christianity. We are now nearing that great change which may be expected when the spring-point enters Aquarius.”‘

References:

[Bell 87] Bell, J. “Speakable and unspeakable in quantum mechanics”, Cambridge University Press, 1987

[Bell 89] Bell, J. : “Towards an exact quantum mechanics”, in “Themes in Contemporary Physics II. Essays in honor of Julian Schwinger’s 70th birthday”, Deser, S. , and Finkelstein, R. J. Ed. , World Scientific, Singapore 1989

[Bell 90] Bell, J. : “Against measurement”, in “Sixty-Two Years of Uncertainty. Historical, Philosophical and Physical Inquiries into the Foundations of Quantum Mechanics”, Proceedings of a NATO Advanced Study Institute, August 5-15, Erice, Ed. Arthur I. Miller, NATO ASI Series B vol. 226 , Plenum Press, New York 1990

[Eccles 77] Eccles, J., Popper, K.: “Self and its Brain”, Springer , New York 1977

[Eccles 92] Beck, F. and Eccles, J.C.: “Quantum aspects of brain activity and the role of consciousness”, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci., USA, 89 (1992) pp. 11357-11361.

[Eccles 94] Eccles, J.C.: “How the Self Controls its Brain”, Springer, Berlin 1994

[Ellis 73] Ellis, G., Hawking, S.: “The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time”, Cambridge University Press, 1973

[Ellis 93] Ellis, G.: “Before the Beginning”, Bowerdean/Marion Boyars, 1993.

[Gold97] Goldstein, S. : “Quantum Theory without Observers”

[Jung64] Jung, C.G.: “Flying Saucers. A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies.” Vol. 10 & 18. The Collected Works of C.G. Jung., Translated by R.F.C. Hull. Bollingen Series XX. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1964

[Stapp 93] Stapp, H.P.: “Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics”, Springer Verlag, Berlin 1993

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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ūüėČ
Date: November 29, 2003 at 12:39:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hahahaha!!! Yes, I used a translator! I guess I should’ve made that clear? I just really wanted to know what the French post said and thought some other folks on the list might want to know too.
I am fluent only in English……but I guess you could tell that! ūüėČ
Peace!
Callie

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Survey-please help!
Date: November 28, 2003 at 8:26:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/28/03 11:59:55 PM, alex05301@yahoo.com writes:

Ibogaine Survey
Please help – I am trying to put together some
information to present to my addiction class.  Your
imput would be much appreciated. Please email surveys
back to me by December 5th.  Thank you.

Lisa,

Are you a student in the class or the teacher?  In either case as you are
asking for information I think it is appropriate you identify yourself including
any academic credentials you may have.  Thanks

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ūüėČ
Date: November 28, 2003 at 12:40:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Callie, there is a french expression that says ” Without tail nor head ” ūüėČ that’s the feeling I get reading some sentences of the translated text, I guess you’ve probably used some¬†translator which or who¬†was up with Iboga ?

Le me give you some example : You wrote “Here for all my English speaking Ibogaine pals is a translation of the French post! Hope you don’t mind that I translated it for them!”
You’ve got : ” Ici pour tous mes copains de Ibogaine parlant anglaiss est une traduction de la poste fran√ßaise! Esp√©rer que vous n’a pas des objections que je l’ai traduit pour eux! ”
In french we translate this sentence¬†that way : Voil√† la traduction du texte fran√ßais pour tous mes copains Iboga√Įne parlant anglais.
J’esp√®re que vous ne verrez pas d’objection au fait que je l’ai traduit pour eux.
There are some differences as you can read ūüėČ
In french ” la poste ” is a Post Office and not ” the mail”. And we use three kinds of “you ”¬†which creates big grammatical variations.

Frenchy yours !

Martine

From: lisa steckler <alex05301@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Survey-please help!
Date: November 28, 2003 at 5:12:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine Survey
Please help – I am trying to put together some
information to present to my addiction class.  Your
imput would be much appreciated. Please email surveys
back to me by December 5th.  Thank you.

1) # of times you have taken ibogaine _______ since__
1b) If you have never taken it, your interest in this
mailing list is (please complete as many questions
that follow as possible)__________

2) Reasons you have taken it are (list as many as
possible)_____________

3) Your age now ______
4) Your drug use history (brief)______________________

5) Current use/recovery situation ____________

6) Longest abstinence following ibogaine treatment
____________
7) History of use of any psychopharmacuticals (anti
depressents, etc) _

8) During time when ibogaine was ¬Ďin effect¬í, any
steps you took to avoid relapse in the
future_______________

9) Ways ibogaine has affected your spiritual
perspectives/connections:____

10) Ways ibogaine has affected your long term
emotional/mental stability:_____

Thank you so much for taking the time to complete this
as fully as possible.  Your answers will aid my
process of introducing this treatment option to my
class. Again thank you so much.  -Lisa

__________________________________
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From: “Justin Thyme” <ibogaine@homosapiens.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 27, 2003 at 8:40:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i think x-junkies might make the best facilitators. but it’s definitely nothing to rush into. you’ve gotta put in your time. everything in good time. i just do what i feel to do. ideas are alot like fires i guess, they might just dwindle away if not fueled enough and left alone, and they might just burn yourself if you feed em too much and they get outta hand. watch out for burdens, do what feels comfortable. healing yourself IS “getting into the fight”. lots of love and strength to you, jaden, and everyOne. namaste

thyme
—– Original Message —–
From: Jaden Shaw
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the Ibo/Activist Movement

Hello Thyme.
I think what you are doing is really great. Its been about six weeks since I took Ibogaine and I havent put anything into my system since. But I still get physical and mental triggers. I get dreams. But I can fight them. Its just that when I go to my old stomping grounds Im afraid that it would be too overwhelming. I would love to help whether it be at the safe injection site, needle exchanges or anything to do with the people I know. Even people who never took Iboga find the strength to go back. I want to get into the fight. Just on the other side. Marc Emery, who treated me is very busy and believes that if you are a patient then you cant help in the treating of people. Im a guinea pig at best. I want to be more. I know I have it in me. Anyways I like what you are doing it helps me to hear about it. What people do after Iboga.

There is a after-ibo list or lists on mindvox already I just don’t know
their names, someone anyone?
I have been looking for this and cannot find it, so again, someone, anyone?
And Merci pour le message frencais. Out Ill y a des autres personnes qui parles cette langue ici.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] EmaiL
Date: November 27, 2003 at 1:55:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Over the last coupla weeks people who are connected to overloaded servers
like Hotmail, have been having problems receiving and sending email into
MindVox.

The mail system has been re-tuned to hang around and twiddle its thumbs
while patiently waiting for slow connections to actually CONNECT —
instead of timing out in 30 seconds.

If anybody is still experiencing problems, please lemme know.  Unless of
course you can’t read these words at all, in which case, just, like, go
about your life and stuff.

Laters, and for the people who live in the StateS; have a cool
Thanksgiving.

Patrick

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 26, 2003 at 3:30:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

GAmma wrote >Just a suggestion, give yourself some time to do more healing
before you try to
do outreach work, jumping into the fire too soon could be too much too
soon.<

Hi Jaden,
I’d like to second Gamma’s note above. Just speaking from personal
experience, I found it was a good idea for me to simply take it easy for a
while, get my head together and get used to being awake and not chasing bag
after bag or looking for ways to scam up some cash to cop those
aforementioned bags. After having spent years doing nothing but trying to
get high or getting high, it took some time to get those old habits out of
me, and hell, I still find myself at times looking at old get high spots and
thinking, “hey, I could get high right there and no one would know.” Give
youself some time to heal, and to figure out where and how you would feel
best in helping out other addicts. There’s no need to rush- as a matter of
fact, that impatience thing is often a traight of most addicts, which means
it is a good idea to force yourself to learn to relax, go slowly, don’t rush
in to things on the spur of the moment.
That said, do what you feel most comfortable doing- but in my own humble
opinion, you might want to take Gamma’s advice and just go slow, treat only
yourself for a while (though that might seem selfish, it’s not I don’t
think, as you won’t be doing anyone else any good if you wind up screwing
yourself over again), treat yourself as someone special, in need of special
attention. There will always be others to help out when you yourself are
stronger and have more “clean” time in you.
Peace and best of luck to you.
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Gamma” <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the Ibo/Activist Movement

— Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca> wrote:

I would love to help whether it be at the safe injection site,
needle exchanges or anything to do with the people I know. Even people
who
never took Iboga find the strength to go back. I want to get into the
fight.
Just on the other side. Marc Emery, who treated me is very busy and
believes
that if you are a patient then you cant help in the treating of people.
Im a
guinea pig at best. I want to be more. I know I have it in me. Anyways I
like
what you are doing it helps me to hear about it. What people do after
Iboga.

Hey Jaden,

Just a suggestion, give yourself some time to do more healing before you
try to
do outreach work, jumping into the fire too soon could be too much too
soon.
Investing into yourself at this point is a really good idea, that may
sound
selfish but it is really important, and in the long run you will have more
to
offer to others. I went thru the same urge to want to make a difference
and
give back to my addict peers, which backfired on me eventually and I ended
up
going back to using, because I thought I could handle the “old stomping
grounds”. Hell, I thought I was invinceable. But I’m not… Not that I
surrender to the 12 step modality of “Powerlessness”, personally that
doesn’t
work for me. But getting some time/healing under your belt is a good
thing, at
the very least ease yourself slowly into helping others.

Peace,
~DH

__________________________________
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 26, 2003 at 10:52:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Gamma,

Also it is about confusion and being hypocritical,
Money will not buy them love will not show them the way will not cure
them from greed.

On the other hand, there is no harm with being critical or having
freedom of speech or provoking, even when it doesn’t sound or look so
sweet.
A movment needs friction.

Groetjes
S.

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: dinsdag 25 november 2003 9:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why?

ego and the almighty dollar. it is a shame.

~gamma

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 26, 2003 at 1:03:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca> wrote:

I would love to help whether it be at the safe injection site,
needle exchanges or anything to do with the people I know. Even people who
never took Iboga find the strength to go back. I want to get into the fight.
Just on the other side. Marc Emery, who treated me is very busy and believes
that if you are a patient then you cant help in the treating of people. Im a
guinea pig at best. I want to be more. I know I have it in me. Anyways I like
what you are doing it helps me to hear about it. What people do after Iboga.

Hey Jaden,

Just a suggestion, give yourself some time to do more healing before you try to
do outreach work, jumping into the fire too soon could be too much too soon.
Investing into yourself at this point is a really good idea, that may sound
selfish but it is really important, and in the long run you will have more to
offer to others. I went thru the same urge to want to make a difference and
give back to my addict peers, which backfired on me eventually and I ended up
going back to using, because I thought I could handle the “old stomping
grounds”. Hell, I thought I was invinceable. But I’m not… Not that I
surrender to the 12 step modality of “Powerlessness”, personally that doesn’t
work for me. But getting some time/healing under your belt is a good thing, at
the very least ease yourself slowly into helping others.

Peace,
~DH

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

From: Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 25, 2003 at 3:49:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you for your responses. Tommy G. Im sorry to hear about your Grandson. I think its wonderfull that you take such an interest in Iboga and addiction itself. He is very lucky to have you. You are right, I am “chomping at the bit”. I cannot go to see my blood relatives, foster brothers and sisters or freinds because they are all of that lifestyle. Its tough. I send them care packages.
I have all this drive now that I didnt have before because its a selfless drive. I want to do something beneficial with these hands of mine.

Hello Thyme.
I think what you are doing is really great. Its been about six weeks since I took Ibogaine and I havent put anything into my system since. But I still get physical and mental triggers. I get dreams. But I can fight them. Its just that when I go to my old stomping grounds Im afraid that it would be too overwhelming. I would love to help whether it be at the safe injection site, needle exchanges or anything to do with the people I know. Even people who never took Iboga find the strength to go back. I want to get into the fight. Just on the other side. Marc Emery, who treated me is very busy and believes that if you are a patient then you cant help in the treating of people. Im a guinea pig at best. I want to be more. I know I have it in me. Anyways I like what you are doing it helps me to hear about it. What people do after Iboga.

There is a after-ibo list or lists on mindvox already I just don’t know
their names, someone anyone?
I have been looking for this and cannot find it, so again, someone, anyone?
And Merci pour le message frencais. Out Ill y a des autres personnes qui parles cette langue ici.
Tommy <tgoodson7@cox.net> wrote:
Jaden:¬† You bring up some very valuable points.¬† In some ways “After-Care” may be as important
if proper follow-up is secured, as the original IBOGAINE THERAPY.   Without it too many addicts
relapse or recidivate fail in their attempt to stay sober.  It is not a particular weakness so much
as it the very nature of ADDICTION.

I am 80 years old and I have never been addicted, fortunately, so I cannot speak from experience but as an interested observer and having a Grandson, 26 years old,who was addicted from the age of 12
and is serving a 5 year term now for transgressions committed after having a complete 6 day treatment with IBOGAINE, the absence of proper follow-up therapy was sorely missed.  With proper
“After-Care” I feel sure he would have made it.¬† No one is a stronger advocate¬†for IBOGAINE than he.

Even now, he says he must have a booster treatment of Ibogaine Therapy when he is free and he  now knows the value of follow-up therapy.   I remain committed to and am totally convinced that it
is the only existing affective treatment for “DRUG ADDICTION”

I am a convinced observer of Marc Emery’s authenticity and his dedication to serving his fellow men.¬† There are other individuals actively¬†involved in the service and treatment of “Drug Addicts”
who can help and give you valuable.

One thing you can do is start a “Group Therapy” following right in your own community.¬† Your active participation in such a group would probably benefit you to an unlimited extent.¬† And your message gives me the idea you are “Champing at Bit” to get into the action of the Drug Reform
movement and the clean-up after-math of the over-all experience.

Other than Marc Emery, there are other individuals around the country who can help you.  One of these people is the gentleman with whom I dealt for my Grandson for treatment is an Eric Taub.  He
is a fine person and has helped hundreds of ADDICTS.  He, as much as any one I know, can give
you more information.   He is located in Gainsville, Fl.  Marc Emery is in Vancouver, B. C., Canada.

First, though, there is tons of information on the internet about the treatment and “After-Care” of addicts.¬† Learn all you can from this source and especially the first person accounts of “Recovering Addicts” who have successfully taken the necessary “Ibogaine Therapy
Treatments” and the follow-up group therapy deemed so necessary and indispensable for
continued sobriety.

I understand Eric has treated more 450 addicts; he has a very special ambition to treat 5% of the world’s addicts.¬† There are many dedicated individuals in the activity of “Drug Problem Solving” and
more are getting into the action all the time.  One day I trust that there will be enough people in the
“FIGHT” to blow the lid off the cult of secrecy surrounding the “Drug and Ibogaine Movement”.

One day¬†politicians will acknowledge the efficacy of IBOGAINE and jump on the “band-wagon”.

I am not a philanthropist; just an old man sitting on the side lines adding a word here and there in
the hopes of helping some poor unfortunate “DRUG ADDICT”.¬† I am not religious, “But for the grace
of God it could be me”.

I am not an expert on Drug Addiction but I sure have learned a hell of a lot about addiction as an
interested observer.  I never really wanted to know anything about DRUGS AND DRUG ADDICTION.

Eric Taub’s¬† e-mail address is ibeginagaine@aol.com.¬† Marc Emery’s e-mail address is info@ibogainetherapyhouse.

Tommy Goodson

—– Original Message —–
From: Jaden Shaw
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

Bickering Schmickering. Thats my only comment on that. I just did a gram of HCL for a detox and interuptor. It did its work of course. It always seems to. Im doing many things differently this time. Its so easy to get cocky with the ibo-glow hey? Nice, Im cured.

Heres a question. After care. Where is it? What does it look like? Ive been looking into it for quite a while now. Ive been trying to write it all out. Everything I can find because I want to put it all together in case someone needs to read it. So far after every time Ive done Ibogaine the only support I can find is this list. Studying Ibogaine. All aspects of it. You guys are my unwitting teachers. I know there are other eager minds out there. I have vitality that I want to put to use.
I believe that there needs to be a list such as this for people who have done Iboga but with a focus of after care.
I know Ibogaine leaves a bad taste in all our mouths when we eat it but when you try to talk about it to people it leaves a bad taste in their mouths through lack of understanding. My dads a Dr so you can guess what talking to him is like. NA AA want honesty. What are you doing now? Conversation ends there. This Church Ive been going to with a program called Celebrate Recovery shunned me for the Ibogaine and the Chinese Herbs I followed up with. What a stab. Its enough getting it from the people in the world but thats why we need more banding together on the list.
So its a solo mission and this list and the information on Iboga like the Dossier and the books are all I have.
Im in Canada and cant leave the country to go to conferences so when they happen it would be nice to hear the meat of them not the “bickering”.¬†I just would like to do something and the only thing I can come up with is after care.

So, any links, suggestions, thoughts, opinions. I just need to be pointed in a direction.

And Martine, I appreciate your fresh and positive views. It encourages me very much. And I like reading your writings Preston. I like how almost everyone on this list have some other huge project that they take care of. Its such a huge fight for everything. The whole Methadone things sucks. So lets start NAMA. You all do something about something and I respect that because after reading up on everyone, most of you come from where I am right now.

Another thing, I know both Marc and Sandra and I can give you quality assurance. Marc is patient enough to deal with addicts like myself and the only thing I saw in those postings was his sense of humour.

And another-nother thing I was wondering is how many observers we have. Like me. I just sat back for a year. Because Im young and I really cant keep up with you guys. But for all the wallflowers hello and you should say something. Because I cant be the only one who needs to know that there are others out there who are fresh to the whole experience.

As much as things seem to be clearer, minds are easily moulded post Ibogaine I think. Because theres just so much you want to know. Its like getting your boyhood curiosity back but alas I ramble…

Jaden

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] FWD Jailed in Miami
Date: November 25, 2003 at 3:48:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

——– Original Message ——– Subject: A message from Democracy Now
Producer Jailed in Miami During FTAADate: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:29:21 -0800From:
Mona LaVine <monajl@earthlink.net>Reply-To:
To:

Your can help with just a phone call or email!>From:
list@democracynow.org>Subject: Democracy Now!: A Message from DN! Producer Jailed in Miami>During
FTAA>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 07:10:14 -0500 (EST)>>Protests>Content-type:
text/plain>>DEMOCRACY NOW! SPECIAL ALERT>>[The following is a message written by
Democracy Now! producer Ana>Nogueira  who was arrested Friday evening while covering
the FTAA protests>in Miami.  We thank the listeners and viewers who responded
to our action>alert  last night and called officials demanding her release.
She was>released  early Saturday morning. For full coverage on the FTAA
protests>tune into  Democracy Now!]>>Early this morning I was sitting in a jail cell
in Miami, cold, hungry and>trying to ignore the cockroaches crawling on the
floor of the cell. My>clothes had been taken away from me and thrown out because
they reeked of>pepper spray.>>I was arrested because I had not embedded
myself with the Police>Department before doing my job of co!
vering
the protests for the nationally>syndicated public radio and tv program
Democracy Now! Instead, I was swept>up late Friday afternoon with about 70 others
as we tried to obey an order>to disperse from an “unlawful” jail solidarity
rally.>>Mine is not an isolated case. Four other independent reporters
were>arrested with me and three of them remain in jail: Jeanette Lee and>Michael Medow,
both of Michigan Independent Media Center, as well as>an  IMC reporter who
goes by the name of Winter. Todd Price, a Madison,>WI, journalist who was
formerly the executive director of community>television  station WYOU, was arrested
with me but has been released.>>In addition, Justin Lipson of the NYC IMC Video
Team was arrested on>Thursday and is being held on a $10,000 bond. Police
smashed his camera>and have charged him with two felonies. Miami New Times staff
writer>Celeste Fraser Delgado was also arrested on Thursday while trying
to>interview protesters. Her purse and press credentials we!
re left
at the>scene of her arrest.>>I am out now thanks entirely to the pressure
that Democracy Now!>supporters and staff put on the jail to release me. If not
for all the>emails and phone calls the police received demanding my immediate
release,>I would still be there. However, I am still facing charges and will
most>likely have to return to Miami to appear in court.>>I thank everyone who
stood up for the right of independent media today and>contacted the jail urging
them to release me. But there is more we need to>do. Our colleagues in Miami
are receiving disturbing reports of ongoing>abuse of prisoners inside the jail,
including severe beatings, being held>in a cold room with no toilet, getting
cold-showered every two hours.>People of color and transgender people feel
that they were specifically>targeted. We must all act now to demand that the
torture stop and all>charges against the journalists be dropped.>>Please, tell
everyone you possibly can to call the numbers below to de!
mand>the
release of Jeanette Lee, Michael Medow, Winter, and Justin Lipson,
the>dropping of all charges against journalists, and the fair treatment of
all>prisoners.>>– Ana Nogueira, Democracy Now! producer>>= = = = = = = = =
=>ACTION:>>Call/Email These Authorities:>>Turner Guilford Knight Correctional Center
(TGK)>305-470-7636 or 305-470-7600 (Press 2 for TGK, then 7 for booking or 9
for>shift commander)>>The Joint Task Force on Law Enforcement>Major Role (cell):
305-216-6594>>FTAA Miami Unified Command Joint Information Center>Phone:
305-579-6420>>Miami-Dade County Mayor Alex Penelas>mayor@miamidade.gov>>City of Miami
Mayor Manuel A. Diaz>Telephone: 305-250-5300>E-mail:
mannydiaz@ci.miami.fl.us>Janet Lopez, Director Office of Communications>Phone:
305-416-1036>Pager:305-312-2981>>= = = = = = = = =>Tune in to Democracy Now! Radio & TV on Monday for a
complete report:>http://www.democracynow.org>And for more information visit
the FTAA IMC in Miami at http://www.ftaaimc.orgLet’s act!
when we
have the opportunity!>Mona LaVine-

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Viceland article pulled
Date: November 25, 2003 at 3:46:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/25/03 7:22:58 PM, nicks22@onetel.net.uk writes:

I heard that the “controversial” article about ibogaine in
Viceland a couple of months back has now been pulled, after a
few letters of complaint. Good to hear, I wonder if they’ll
put up a retraction?

Good riddance to bad writing.

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org

From: Nick Sandberg <nicks22@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] Viceland article pulled
Date: November 25, 2003 at 6:36:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I heard that the “controversial” article about ibogaine in
Viceland a couple of months back has now been pulled, after a
few letters of complaint. Good to hear, I wonder if they’ll
put up a retraction?

Nick

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 25, 2003 at 12:07:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why?

ego and the almighty dollar. it is a shame.

~gamma

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ūüėČ
Date: November 25, 2003 at 9:23:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here for all my English speaking Ibogaine pals is a translation of the French post!
Hope you don’t mind that I translated it for them!

Ici pour tous mes copains de Ibogaine parlant anglaiss est une traduction de la poste fran√ßaise! Esp√©rer que vous n’a pas des objections que je l’ai traduit pour eux!

THE CONTRACT TACITE of the people that sleep…¬† “That not said word, consents!”

Name: Subject Neurone: Continues to sleep small man… quietly…¬† Sun, Sep 28 2003 at 7:02 pm Source Internet: http:
//forum.onecenter.com

Message:

Anonymous text take on the net one that summarizes well my manner to think…

¬ę My dear friends, September 11 marks the sad birthday of a highly symbolic catastrophe for humanity.¬† Little imports our beliefs or our political ideas, the put system some places in our free world rests on the agreement tacite of a contract sort past with each of us, of which here in the big lines it contained:

1) I ACCEPT the competition as bases of our system, even if I am aware that this functioning generates frustration and anger for the immense majority of the losers, 2) I ACCEPT being humiliated or exploited has condition that one allows me has my turn to humiliate or to exploit someone occupying an inferior place in the social pyramide, 3) I ACCEPT the social exclusion of the marginal ones, of theThe corporation has its limits, 4) I ACCEPT paying the banks for that they invest my salaries to their convenience, and that they do not transfer me no dividend of their gigantic profits (that will serve has to rob the poor countries, this that I
implicitly accept).  I accept also as she remove a strong commission to lend to me money that is not other as the one of the other customers, 5) I ACCEPT as one freezes and as one throws food tons for not as the courses collapse, rather than to offer them to the needy one and to allow some hundreds of thousands of persons of notTo put an end to its days quickly, on the other hand I tolerate that one do it slowly while inhaling or ingesting toxic substances authorized by the states, 7) I ACCEPT that one do the war to do to reign peace.  I accept that in the name of peace, the first expenditure of the states be the budget of the defense.  I
accept therefore that of the conflicts are created artificially to flow the stocks of weapons and do to turn the world-wide economy, 8) I ACCEPT the domination of the oil in our economy, well that it is a matter of a costly energy and polluting, and I am in agreement to prevent all attempt from substitution, if it proved itself that one discovers a free and limitless means to produce ofhis next one, except if the states decree that it is a matter of an enemy and we encourage to kill it, 10) I ACCEPT that one divides the public opinion while creating on the part right and left that will spend their time to fight itself while giving me the
impression to do to advance the system. I accept besides all sorts of possible divisions, provided that they allow methe portrait in front of my eyes, 11) I ACCEPT that the strength to fashion the public opinion, formerly held by the religions, today to the hands of non wheeler-dealers democratically elected and totally free to check the states, for I am convinced good usage that they indeed, 12) I ACCEPT the idea that the happiness summarizes itself to the comfort, the love to the sex, and libertyAdvertising keeps repeating me all day long.  More I will be unfortunate and more I will consume: I will fill my role while contributing to the
good functioning of our economy, 13) I ACCEPT than the value of a person measures herself to the size of his bank account, than one appreciates his usefulness according to his productivité rather than of his quality, and than one excluded from it the system if she is not anymore rather productive, 14)soccer or actors, and a lot less the professors and the loaded doctors of the education and health of the future generations, 15) I ACCEPT that one puts to the bench of the corporation the elderly persons of which the experience could be for us useful, for being the civilization more evolved of the planet (and doubtless universe) let us know us
than the experience not itselfpresents me of the new negative one and terrifying world everyday, for that I can appreciate has which not at all our position is normal and how much I am lucky to live in west. I know that to maintain the fear in our spirits can be only beneficial for us, 17) I ACCEPT that the industrial, military officers and politicians uniformly meet to take without planning usLife and planet, 18) I ACCEPT consuming meat cattle treated to the hormones without that one explicitly signals it for me.  I accept that the culture of the GMO sheds itself in the entire world, allowing thus to the trusts of the food processing one to
patent the living one, to store consequent dividends and to hold under their joug world-wide farming, 19) I ACCEPT that the international banks lend money to the countries wishing to arm itself and to beat itself, and to choose thus those that will do the war and.  I am conscious that it is more better to finance the two edges in order to be sure to earn money, and do to last the conflicts more a long time possible in order totally to be able to pillage their resources themselves they cannot reimburse the loans, 20) I ACCEPT than the multinational corporations abstain from apply the social progresses of the west in the disadvantaged
countries.  Considering that this already an embellished to do them to work, I prefer that one uses the laws in force in these countries allowing doing to work children in inhuman and precarious conditions.  In the name of the human rights and citizen, we have not the right to do interference, 21) I ACCEPT that the politicians can be of a doubtful honesty and corrupt sometimes very. I think about elsewhere that this normal one to the saw strong pressures that they undergo.  For the majority on the other hand, the tolerance zero must be placement, 22) I ACCEPT that the pharmaceutical laboratories and the industrial ones of the food processing
one sell in the disadvantaged countries of the expired products or use carcinogenic substances forbidden in west, 23) I ACCEPT that the remainder of the planet, c’est-√†-dire four billion individuals, can think differently provided that it does not come to express its beliefs withOur History with its primitive philosophical notions, 24) I ACCEPT the idea that it exists only two possibilities in the nature, to know to hunt or to be hunted.¬† And if we are gifted with a conscience and of a language, this is not certainly to escape this dualit√©, but to justify why we are a question of go out it, 25) I ACCEPT considering our passed as a continuous
continuation of conflicts, of political conspiracies and of wills hégémoniques, but I know that today all this does not exist anymore for we are at the summum of our evolution, andAre the research of the happiness and liberty of all the peoples, as we hear it continually in our political speech, 26) I ACCEPT without discussing and I consider as truths all the proposed theories for the explanation of the mystery of our origins.  And I accept that the nature was able to put millions of years to create a human being of which it alone past time be the destruction of his own type in some instants, 27) I ACCEPT the research of the profit as supreme
goal of humanity, and the accumulation of the wealths as the accomplishment of human life, 28) I ACCEPT the destruction of the forests, the.  I accept the increase of industrial pollution and the dispersion of chemical poisons and of radioactive elements in the nature.  I accept the usage of all sorts of chemical additives in my nutrition, for I am convinced that if one the there puts, this is that they are useful and without danger, 29) I ACCEPT the economical war holding sway on the planet, even if I feel that she takes us towards an unprecedented catastrophe, 30) I accept this position, and I admit that I not nothing can do for theCattle,
for all things considered, I think that I do not be worth better, 32) I ACCEPT not to ask no question, to close the eyes on all this, and of not to formulate no true opposition for I am well too occupied by my life and my concerns.  I accept even to defend to the death this contract if you wonder it for me, 33) I ACCEPT therefore, in my soul and conscience and definitively, this sad matrice that you place in front of my eyes to prevent me from see the reality of the things.  I know that you act for my good and for the one of all, and I some thank you.

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: [ibogaine] Some french on the net ūüėČ
Date: November 24, 2003 at 2:59:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello, I don’t know how much amid the readers of that list speak or understand some french, let’s say that this message is for them only, sorry for¬† “All The Others”, and for sure I know you’re the big majority of us.
It’s about all what we ” accept” consciously or without knowledge, causing suffering for most of us or for “others” we don’t know, written in a sarcastic way.
E.g. : ” I accept competition even if I know that this system creates frustration, anger for most of the ” loosers”.
” I accept to be humiliated or exploited as long as I’m allowed to do the same to someone standing on an inferior stage of the social pyramid ” And so on.

I’m ok for translation anyway, if somebody demands it ūüėČ But you maybe already know it in english ?

Friendly To All,

Martine

LE CONTRAT TACITE
des gens qui dorment…¬† “Qui ne dit mot, consent !”

Nom: Neurone‚Ä®Sujet: Continue √† dormir petit d’homme … tranquillement …‚Ä®Sun, Sep 28 2003 at 7:02 pm‚Ä®Source Internet: http://forum.onecenter.com
Message:
Texte anonyme pris sur le net qui r√©sume bien ma fa√ßon de penser …
¬ę Mes chers amis,‚Ä®Le 11 septembre marque le triste anniversaire d’une catastrophe hautement symbolique pour l’humanit√©.‚Ä®Peu importe nos croyances ou nos id√©es politiques, le syst√®me mis en place dans notre monde libre repose sur l’accord tacite d’une sorte de contrat pass√© avec chacun d’entre nous, dont voici dans les grandes lignes le contenu :
1) J’accepte la comp√©tition comme base de notre syst√®me, m√™me si j’ai conscience que ce fonctionnement engendre frustration et col√®re pour l’immense majorit√© des perdants,‚Ä®2) J’accepte d’√™tre humili√© ou exploit√© a condition qu’on me permette a mon tour d’humilier ou d’exploiter quelqu’un occupant une place inf√©rieure dans la pyramide sociale,‚Ä®3) J’accepte l’exclusion sociale des marginaux, des inadapt√©s et des faibles car je consid√®re que le prise en charge de la soci√©t√© a ses limites,‚Ä®4) J’accepte de r√©mun√©rer les banques pour qu’elles investissent mes salaires √† leur convenance, et qu’elles ne me reversent aucun dividende de leurs gigantesques profits (qui serviront a d√©valiser les pays pauvres, ce que j’accepte implicitement). J’accepte aussi qu’elle pr√©l√®vent une forte commission pour me pr√™ter de l’argent qui n’est autre que celui des autres clients,‚Ä®5) J’accepte que l’on cong√®le et que l’on jette des tonnes de nourriture pour ne pas que les cours s’√©croulent, plut√īt que de les offrir aux n√©cessiteux et de permettre √† quelques centaines de milliers de personnes de ne pas mourir de faim chaque ann√©e,‚Ä®6) J’accepte qu’il soit interdit de mettre fin √† ses jours rapidement, en revanche je tol√®re qu’on le fasse lentement en inhalant ou ing√©rant des substances toxiques autoris√©es par les √©tats,‚Ä®7) J’accepte que l’on fasse la guerre pour faire r√©gner la paix. J’accepte qu’au nom de la paix, la premi√®re d√©pense des √©tats soit le budget de la d√©fense. J’accepte donc que des conflits soient cr√©√©s artificiellement pour √©couler les stocks d’armes et faire tourner l’√©conomie mondiale,‚Ä®8) J’accepte l’h√©g√©monie du p√©trole dans notre √©conomie, bien qu’il s’agisse d’une √©nergie co√Ľteuse et polluante, et je suis d’accord pour emp√™cher toute tentative de substitution, s’il s’av√©rait que l’on d√©couvre un moyen gratuit et illimit√© de produire de l’√©nergie, ce qui serait notre perte,‚Ä®9) J’accepte que l’on condamne le meurtre de son prochain, sauf si les √©tats d√©cr√®tent qu’il s’agit d’un ennemi et nous encouragent √† le tuer,‚Ä®10) J’accepte que l’on divise l’opinion publique en cr√©ant des partis de droite et de gauche qui passeront leur temps √† se combattre en me donnant l’impression de faire avancer le syst√®me. j’accepte d’ailleurs toutes sortes de divisions possibles, pourvu qu’elles me permettent de focaliser ma col√®re vers les ennemis d√©sign√©s dont on agitera le portrait devant mes yeux,‚Ä®11) J’accepte que le pouvoir de fa√ßonner l’opinion publique, jadis d√©tenu par les religions, soit aujourd’hui aux mains d’affairistes non √©lus d√©mocratiquement et totalement libres de contr√īler les √©tats, car je suis convaincu du bon usage qu’ils en feront,‚Ä®12) J’accepte l’id√©e que le bonheur se r√©sume au confort, l’amour au sexe, et la libert√© √† l’assouvissement de tous les d√©sirs, car c’est ce que la publicit√© me rab√Ęche toute la journ√©e. Plus je serai malheureux et plus je consommerai : je remplirai mon r√īle en contribuant au bon fonctionnement de notre √©conomie,‚Ä®13) J’accepte que la valeur d’une personne se mesure √† la taille de son compte bancaire, qu’on appr√©cie son utilit√© en fonction de sa productivit√© plut√īt que de sa qualit√©, et qu’on l’exclue du syst√®me si elle n’est plus assez productive,‚Ä®14) J’accepte que l’on paie grassement les joueurs de football ou des acteurs, et beaucoup moins les professeurs et les m√©decins charg√©s de l’√©ducation et de la sant√© des g√©n√©rations futures,‚Ä®15) J’accepte que l’on mette au banc de la soci√©t√© les personnes √Ęg√©es dont l’exp√©rience pourrait nous √™tre utile, car √©tant la civilisation la plus √©volu√©e de la plan√®te (et sans doute de l’univers) nous savons que l’exp√©rience ne se partage ni ne se transmet,‚Ä®16) J’accepte que l’on me pr√©sente des nouvelles n√©gatives et terrifiantes du monde tous les jours, pour que je puisse appr√©cier a quel point notre situation est normale et combien j’ai de la chance de vivre en occident. je sais qu’entretenir la peur dans nos esprits ne peut √™tre que b√©n√©fique pour nous,‚Ä®17) J’accepte que les industriels, militaires et politiciens se r√©unissent r√©guli√®rement pour prendre sans nous concerter des d√©cisions qui engagent l’avenir de la vie et de la plan√®te,‚Ä®18) J’accepte de consommer de la viande bovine trait√©e aux hormones sans qu’on me le signale explicitement. J’accepte que la culture des OGM se r√©pande dans le monde entier, permettant ainsi aux trusts de l’agroalimentaire de breveter le vivant, d’engranger des dividendes cons√©quents et de tenir sous leur joug l’agriculture mondiale,‚Ä®19) J’accepte que les banques internationales pr√™tent de l’argent aux pays souhaitant s’armer et se battre, et de choisir ainsi ceux qui feront la guerre et ceux qui ne la feront pas. Je suis conscient qu’il vaut mieux financer les deux bords afin d’√™tre s√Ľr de gagner de l’argent, et faire durer les conflits le plus longtemps possible afin de pouvoir totalement piller leurs ressources s’ils ne peuvent pas rembourser les emprunts,‚Ä®20) J’accepte que les multinationales s’abstiennent d’appliquer les progr√®s sociaux de l’occident dans les pays d√©favoris√©s. Consid√©rant que c’est d√©j√† une embellie de les faire travailler, je pr√©f√®re qu’on utilise les lois en vigueur dans ces pays permettant de faire travailler des enfants dans des conditions inhumaines et pr√©caires. Au nom des droits de l’homme et du citoyen, nous n’avons pas le droit de faire de l’ing√©rence,‚Ä®21) J’accepte que les hommes politiques puissent √™tre d’une honn√™tet√© douteuse et parfois m√™me corrompus. je pense d’ailleurs que c’est normal au vu des fortes pressions qu’ils subissent. Pour la majorit√© par contre, la tol√©rance z√©ro doit √™tre de mise,‚Ä®22) J’accepte que les laboratoires pharmaceutiques et les industriels de l’agroalimentaire vendent dans les pays d√©favoris√©s des produits p√©rim√©s ou utilisent des substances canc√©rig√®nes interdites en occident,‚Ä®23) J’accepte que le reste de la plan√®te, c’est-√†-dire quatre milliards d’individus, puisse penser diff√©remment √† condition qu’il ne vienne pas exprimer ses croyances chez nous, et encore moins de tenter d’expliquer notre Histoire avec ses notions philosophiques primitives,‚Ä®24) J’accepte l’id√©e qu’il n’existe que deux possibilit√©s dans la nature, √† savoir chasser ou √™tre chass√©. Et si nous sommes dou√©s d’une conscience et d’un langage, ce n’est certainement pas pour √©chapper √† cette dualit√©, mais pour justifier pourquoi nous agissons de la sorte,‚Ä®25) J’accepte de consid√©rer notre pass√© comme une suite ininterrompue de conflits, de conspirations politiques et de volont√©s h√©g√©moniques, mais je sais qu’aujourd’hui tout ceci n’existe plus car nous sommes au summum de notre √©volution, et que les seules r√®gles r√©gissant notre monde sont la recherche du bonheur et de la libert√© de tous les peuples, comme nous l’entendons sans cesse dans nos discours politiques,‚Ä®26) J’accepte sans discuter et je consid√®re comme v√©rit√©s toutes les th√©ories propos√©es pour l’explication du myst√®re de nos origines. Et j’accepte que la nature ait pu mettre des millions d’ann√©es pour cr√©er un √™tre humain dont le seul passe-temps soit la destruction de sa propre esp√®ce en quelques instants,‚Ä®27) J’accepte la recherche du profit comme but supr√™me de l’Humanit√©, et l’accumulation des richesses comme l’accomplissement de la vie humaine,‚Ä®28) J’accepte la destruction des for√™ts, la quasi-disparition des poissons de rivi√®res et de nos oc√©ans. J’accepte l’augmentation de la pollution industrielle et la dispersion de poisons chimiques et d’√©l√©ments radioactifs dans la nature. J’accepte l’utilisation de toutes sortes d’additifs chimiques dans mon alimentation, car je suis convaincu que si on les y met, c’est qu’ils sont utiles et sans danger,‚Ä®29) J’accepte la guerre √©conomique s√©vissant sur la plan√®te, m√™me si je sens qu’elle nous m√®ne vers une catastrophe sans pr√©c√©dent,‚Ä®30) j’accepte cette situation, et j’admets que je ne peux rien faire pour la changer ou l’am√©liorer,‚Ä®31) J’accepte d’√™tre trait√© comme du b√©tail, car tout compte fait, je pense que je ne vaux pas mieux,‚Ä®32) J’accepte de ne poser aucune question, de fermer les yeux sur tout ceci, et de ne formuler aucune v√©ritable opposition car je suis bien trop occup√© par ma vie et mes soucis. J’accepte m√™me de d√©fendre √† la mort ce contrat si vous me le demandez,‚Ä®33) J’accepte donc, en mon √Ęme et conscience et d√©finitivement, cette triste matrice que vous placez devant mes yeux pour m’emp√™cher de voir la r√©alit√© des choses. Je sais que vous agissez pour mon bien et pour celui de tous, et je vous en remercie.

 

 

 

From: <gboy@hush.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist …
Date: November 23, 2003 at 9:15:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1

I agree with carla too, in 2 years i’ve posted to this list 3 times and
keep on reading it because it doesn’t bore me. I now got a inbox full
of hate mail or peeps who are saying right on all the peeps who rep ibo
are maniacs. I dont care about the hate i hit deleat, the peeps going
right on didnt understand anything I said because all their mail says
the same thing, everybody should be more like they are and theyre the
ones who should be doing all the talking except nobody cares to hear
it.
I liked the conf a lot, I loved dhoruba and I i love seeing patrick and
pinchbeck because its like two sides of a different world, homeboy is
a drug monster who’s done more of everything then near anybody i ever
heard of, pinchbeck is a burning man entheo weenie, they got a lot of
tension and put on a great show i’d pay just to see the two of them put
on a entheogen deathmatch ;-> no issues at all. if everybody did a science
talk i’d fall asleep its dull, the whole show was dope, nice combo of
everything. if saundra is going to be all bent out of shape over one
msg then smoke another bowl and calm down because thats bullshit, like
i say my opinion and i’m not allowed to? who elected you god. the people
dissing marc emery is a joke too, lighten up and get a sense of humor.

My exact issue is with dana beal dissing people as garbageheads. nobody
needs to be hearing that shit when I paid money to get in their and watch
this, if i’m a garbagehead then i would have taken my money and spent
it on another bag. that was not called for. that’s my issue. I do not
need to pay money to see a show and then have someone who put it on diss
people for attending. especially stoners who are baked 24/7 saying that
shit. who you talking to, say it to yourself.

.g

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:02:17 -0800 Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:
Well said Carla. Kudos 2 u

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From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist …
Date: November 22, 2003 at 7:02:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well said Carla. Kudos 2 u

From: “Tommy” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 22, 2003 at 5:57:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “Eric Taub” <Ibeginagain@aol.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jaden:¬† You bring up some very valuable points.¬† In some ways “After-Care” may be as important
if proper follow-up is secured, as the original IBOGAINE THERAPY.   Without it too many addicts
relapse or recidivate fail in their attempt to stay sober.  It is not a particular weakness so much
as it the very nature of ADDICTION.

I am 80 years old and I have never been addicted, fortunately, so I cannot speak from experience but as an interested observer and having a Grandson, 26 years old,who was addicted from the age of 12
and is serving a 5 year term now for transgressions committed after having a complete 6 day treatment with IBOGAINE, the absence of proper follow-up therapy was sorely missed.  With proper
“After-Care” I feel sure he would have made it.¬† No one is a stronger advocate¬†for IBOGAINE than he.

Even now, he says he must have a booster treatment of Ibogaine Therapy when he is free and he  now knows the value of follow-up therapy.   I remain committed to and am totally convinced that it
is the only existing affective treatment for “DRUG ADDICTION”

I am a convinced observer of Marc Emery’s authenticity and his dedication to serving his fellow men.¬† There are other individuals actively¬†involved in the service and treatment of “Drug Addicts”
who can help and give you valuable.

One thing you can do is start a “Group Therapy” following right in your own community.¬† Your active participation in such a group would probably benefit you to an unlimited extent.¬† And your message gives me the idea you are “Champing at Bit” to get into the action of the Drug Reform
movement and the clean-up after-math of the over-all experience.

Other than Marc Emery, there are other individuals around the country who can help you.  One of these people is the gentleman with whom I dealt for my Grandson for treatment is an Eric Taub.  He
is a fine person and has helped hundreds of ADDICTS.  He, as much as any one I know, can give
you more information.   He is located in Gainsville, Fl.  Marc Emery is in Vancouver, B. C., Canada.

First, though, there is tons of information on the internet about the treatment and “After-Care” of addicts.¬† Learn all you can from this source and especially the first person accounts of “Recovering Addicts” who have successfully taken the necessary “Ibogaine Therapy
Treatments” and the follow-up group therapy deemed so necessary and indispensable for
continued sobriety.

I understand Eric has treated more 450 addicts; he has a very special ambition to treat 5% of the world’s addicts.¬† There are many dedicated individuals in the activity of “Drug Problem Solving” and
more are getting into the action all the time.  One day I trust that there will be enough people in the
“FIGHT” to blow the lid off the cult of secrecy surrounding the “Drug and Ibogaine Movement”.

One day¬†politicians will acknowledge the efficacy of IBOGAINE and jump on the “band-wagon”.

I am not a philanthropist; just an old man sitting on the side lines adding a word here and there in
the hopes of helping some poor unfortunate “DRUG ADDICT”.¬† I am not religious, “But for the grace
of God it could be me”.

I am not an expert on Drug Addiction but I sure have learned a hell of a lot about addiction as an
interested observer.  I never really wanted to know anything about DRUGS AND DRUG ADDICTION.

Eric Taub’s¬† e-mail address is ibeginagaine@aol.com.¬† Marc Emery’s e-mail address is info@ibogainetherapyhouse.

Tommy Goodson

—– Original Message —–
From: Jaden Shaw
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

Bickering Schmickering. Thats my only comment on that. I just did a gram of HCL for a detox and interuptor. It did its work of course. It always seems to. Im doing many things differently this time. Its so easy to get cocky with the ibo-glow hey? Nice, Im cured.

Heres a question. After care. Where is it? What does it look like? Ive been looking into it for quite a while now. Ive been trying to write it all out. Everything I can find because I want to put it all together in case someone needs to read it. So far after every time Ive done Ibogaine the only support I can find is this list. Studying Ibogaine. All aspects of it. You guys are my unwitting teachers. I know there are other eager minds out there. I have vitality that I want to put to use.
I believe that there needs to be a list such as this for people who have done Iboga but with a focus of after care.
I know Ibogaine leaves a bad taste in all our mouths when we eat it but when you try to talk about it to people it leaves a bad taste in their mouths through lack of understanding. My dads a Dr so you can guess what talking to him is like. NA AA want honesty. What are you doing now? Conversation ends there. This Church Ive been going to with a program called Celebrate Recovery shunned me for the Ibogaine and the Chinese Herbs I followed up with. What a stab. Its enough getting it from the people in the world but thats why we need more banding together on the list.
So its a solo mission and this list and the information on Iboga like the Dossier and the books are all I have.
Im in Canada and cant leave the country to go to conferences so when they happen it would be nice to hear the meat of them not the “bickering”.¬†I just would like to do something and the only thing I can come up with is after care.

So, any links, suggestions, thoughts, opinions. I just need to be pointed in a direction.

And Martine, I appreciate your fresh and positive views. It encourages me very much. And I like reading your writings Preston. I like how almost everyone on this list have some other huge project that they take care of. Its such a huge fight for everything. The whole Methadone things sucks. So lets start NAMA. You all do something about something and I respect that because after reading up on everyone, most of you come from where I am right now.

Another thing, I know both Marc and Sandra and I can give you quality assurance. Marc is patient enough to deal with addicts like myself and the only thing I saw in those postings was his sense of humour.

And another-nother thing I was wondering is how many observers we have. Like me. I just sat back for a year. Because Im young and I really cant keep up with you guys. But for all the wallflowers hello and you should say something. Because I cant be the only one who needs to know that there are others out there who are fresh to the whole experience.

As much as things seem to be clearer, minds are easily moulded post Ibogaine I think. Because theres just so much you want to know. Its like getting your boyhood curiosity back but alas I ramble…

Jaden

Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

From: “Justin Thyme” <ibogaine@homosapiens.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 22, 2003 at 1:46:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yo jaden,
concerning the aftercare part, i think it’s one of the best things you can do after the iboga. i ended up in mexico 48 hours after my journey and stayed there for 2 1/2 weeks. i felt it was very good for me to be able to have new environment for my new perspective. if money’s an issue perhaps visiting a good relative or friend outside of your normal routine for a coupla weeks. ibogaine was beautiful for me, but i don’t think of it as a miracle (it only makes sense that since we come from nature that nature also has everything to provide for us). i felt, i’m feeling, that i’ve gotta do my share, iboga pointed me in the direction i was looking for and NOW it’s up to me to take that path. now that i’m back in oregon, i feel inspired to talk about ibogaine with other junkies (and just about anyone else who’s receptive). i goto needle exchanges and drop of ibogaine info, i peruse the streets where i once used to score, talking to my brothers that feel like they’re at the end of a road. many people said i shouldn’t be going into my old junkie turf, but i feel to share not abandon and isolate. and this has actually reaffirmed the path i’m on. there was a deeply inter-related neural net in my mind that ibogaine helped to extract, so it feels like there’s a blank space in there that i should fill with things, like cleaning out an old drawer and then finding things to put back in it. it’s such a beautiful feeling, cultivate it, grow your garden.

in response to:

<“And another-nother thing I was wondering is how many observers we have. Like me. I just sat back for a year. Because Im young and I really cant keep up with you guys. But for all the wallflowers hello and you should say something. Because I cant be the only one who needs to know that there are others out there who are fresh to the whole experience.”>

i’ve had mixed feelings about this list. i joined it about 7 years ago, searching for the magic root. after two years i became disenchanted with the ibo list. i saw sooo much talk and sooo little action. i was down and out, i really wanted help finding ibogaine, but people seemed more interested in other things. i even called and talked with some of the big names here, which was a bummer at the time because i would’ve rather spent money on dope than dead-end phone calls. but hey, no body’s perfect, we all have our issues, and it’s just about being open with them and sharing our ideas. understanding and embracing eachothers ideas, embracing variety, the spice of life.

i wish you the best jaden, stay clear, lucid, and aware of your deep understanding.

i’m not sure if this was info your looking for, but oh well ūüėČ

namaste,
thyme
—– Original Message —–
From: Jaden Shaw
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

Bickering Schmickering. Thats my only comment on that. I just did a gram of HCL for a detox and interuptor. It did its work of course. It always seems to. Im doing many things differently this time. Its so easy to get cocky with the ibo-glow hey? Nice, Im cured.

Heres a question. After care. Where is it? What does it look like? Ive been looking into it for quite a while now. Ive been trying to write it all out. Everything I can find because I want to put it all together in case someone needs to read it. So far after every time Ive done Ibogaine the only support I can find is this list. Studying Ibogaine. All aspects of it. You guys are my unwitting teachers. I know there are other eager minds out there. I have vitality that I want to put to use.
I believe that there needs to be a list such as this for people who have done Iboga but with a focus of after care.
I know Ibogaine leaves a bad taste in all our mouths when we eat it but when you try to talk about it to people it leaves a bad taste in their mouths through lack of understanding. My dads a Dr so you can guess what talking to him is like. NA AA want honesty. What are you doing now? Conversation ends there. This Church Ive been going to with a program called Celebrate Recovery shunned me for the Ibogaine and the Chinese Herbs I followed up with. What a stab. Its enough getting it from the people in the world but thats why we need more banding together on the list.
So its a solo mission and this list and the information on Iboga like the Dossier and the books are all I have.
Im in Canada and cant leave the country to go to conferences so when they happen it would be nice to hear the meat of them not the “bickering”.¬†I just would like to do something and the only thing I can come up with is after care.

So, any links, suggestions, thoughts, opinions. I just need to be pointed in a direction.

And Martine, I appreciate your fresh and positive views. It encourages me very much. And I like reading your writings Preston. I like how almost everyone on this list have some other huge project that they take care of. Its such a huge fight for everything. The whole Methadone things sucks. So lets start NAMA. You all do something about something and I respect that because after reading up on everyone, most of you come from where I am right now.

Another thing, I know both Marc and Sandra and I can give you quality assurance. Marc is patient enough to deal with addicts like myself and the only thing I saw in those postings was his sense of humour.

And another-nother thing I was wondering is how many observers we have. Like me. I just sat back for a year. Because Im young and I really cant keep up with you guys. But for all the wallflowers hello and you should say something. Because I cant be the only one who needs to know that there are others out there who are fresh to the whole experience.

As much as things seem to be clearer, minds are easily moulded post Ibogaine I think. Because theres just so much you want to know. Its like getting your boyhood curiosity back but alas I ramble…

Jaden

GanjaCat <ganjacat@ganjacat.net> wrote:
You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

>All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

> Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
> in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.
>
> What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
> Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
> first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
> this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
> much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
> point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
> Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
> many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
> could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
> for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
> displays of ego battles could wait for another list…
>
> inflowe,
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “GanjaCat”
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
> To:
> Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
>
> > But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
> > something is learned from it.
> >
> > As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.
> >
> > >^..^<
> >
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
> >
> > wow! harsh review!
>
>
>

Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 22, 2003 at 9:35:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Preston , I thought it meant Slavery of Bullies but I wasn’t sure.

Sara

—–Original Message—–‚Ä®From: Martine Docin-Julien [mailto:jardin.dj@free.fr] ‚Ä®Sent: zaterdag 22 november 2003 7:29‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

Ah ah, I get it clearer now¬†! It’s good for my general knowledge ūüėČ Thanks a lot, Preston.

Martine
—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

SOB= Son Of a Bitch.‚Ä®Peace,‚Ä®Preston‚Ä®—– Original Message —– ‚Ä®From: Martine Docin-Julien‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 4:21 AM‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®Thanks for all your comments on that subject : Humour is such a gooooood‚Ä®vitamin !‚Ä®I first misunderstood the invisible funny mood, and I was glad to get it,‚Ä®thanks to “The One” who did make it clear.‚Ä®And yes, I think that the Ibo’s elders have to pay attention to avoid when‚Ä®possible those misunderstandings ;-)‚Ä®That list is really precious.‚Ä®I’ve checked in my dictionnary, and in my ” How to say it in english ” and‚Ä®in “Harraps’ idioms” and¬† I don’t get it, what does SOB mean ? I know now‚Ä®the word ” Bicker”, and I like it ;-)‚Ä®‚Ä®Nice day for all !‚Ä®‚Ä®Martine‚Ä®‚Ä®—– Original Message —– ‚Ä®From: Preston Peet‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:49 PM‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®oh, forget it then.‚Ä®;-))))‚Ä®Peace,‚Ä®Preston‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®—– Original Message —– ‚Ä®From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>‚Ä®To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>‚Ä®Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:27 AM‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®>‚Ä®> In a message dated 11/21/03 7:17:55 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:‚Ä®>‚Ä®> << >On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would‚Ä®dose‚Ä®>‚Ä®> up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to‚Ä®>‚Ä®> see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<‚Ä®>‚Ä®>‚Ä®> I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with‚Ä®>‚Ä®> pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands. >>‚Ä®>‚Ä®> Well, if they dosed about two hours before the meeting with full‚Ä®therapeutic‚Ä®> doses , I doubt there would be presentations and unless there were beds‚Ä®they‚Ä®> would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table.¬† As for a‚Ä®recorder you‚Ä®> might get room ambiance or the tone of the audience but, from the speakers‚Ä®> hardly a word unless you were aggressive and then you might get‚Ä®cooperation or,‚Ä®> an aggressive response in turn.¬† What you recorded on camera would also be‚Ä®> boring:¬† Motionless bodies though one might turn from side to side now or‚Ä®then.‚Ä®>‚Ä®> Howard‚Ä®>‚Ä®> Howard S. Lotsof‚Ä®> President‚Ä®> Dora Weiner Foundation‚Ä®> http://www.doraweiner.org‚Ä®>‚Ä®>

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 22, 2003 at 10:29:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ah ah, I get it clearer now¬†! It’s good for my general knowledge ūüėČ Thanks a lot, Preston.

Martine
—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

SOB= Son Of a Bitch.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Martine Docin-Julien
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

Thanks for all your comments on that subject : Humour is such a gooooood
vitamin !
I first misunderstood the invisible funny mood, and I was glad to get it,
thanks to “The One” who did make it clear.
And yes, I think that the Ibo’s elders have to pay attention to avoid when
possible those misunderstandings ūüėČ
That list is really precious.
I’ve checked in my dictionnary, and in my ” How to say it in english ” and
in “Harraps’ idioms” and¬† I don’t get it, what does SOB mean ? I know now
the word ” Bicker”, and I like it ūüėČ

Nice day for all !

Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

oh, forget it then.
;-))))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

>
> In a message dated 11/21/03 7:17:55 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
>
> << >On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would
dose
>
> up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to
>
> see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<
>
>
> I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with
>
> pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands. >>
>
> Well, if they dosed about two hours before the meeting with full
therapeutic
> doses , I doubt there would be presentations and unless there were beds
they
> would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table.  As for a
recorder you
> might get room ambiance or the tone of the audience but, from the speakers
> hardly a word unless you were aggressive and then you might get
cooperation or,
> an aggressive response in turn.  What you recorded on camera would also be
> boring:  Motionless bodies though one might turn from side to side now or
then.
>
> Howard
>
> Howard S. Lotsof
> President
> Dora Weiner Foundation
> http://www.doraweiner.org
>
>

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 22, 2003 at 9:51:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

SOB= Son Of a Bitch.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Martine Docin-Julien
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

Thanks for all your comments on that subject : Humour is such a gooooood
vitamin !
I first misunderstood the invisible funny mood, and I was glad to get it,
thanks to “The One” who did make it clear.
And yes, I think that the Ibo’s elders have to pay attention to avoid when
possible those misunderstandings ūüėČ
That list is really precious.
I’ve checked in my dictionnary, and in my ” How to say it in english ” and
in “Harraps’ idioms” and ¬†I don’t get it, what does SOB mean ? I know now
the word ” Bicker”, and I like it ūüėČ

Nice day for all !

Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

oh, forget it then.
;-))))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

In a message dated 11/21/03 7:17:55 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

<< >On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would
dose

up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to

see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<

I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with

pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands. >>

Well, if they dosed about two hours before the meeting with full
therapeutic
doses , I doubt there would be presentations and unless there were beds
they
would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table.  As for a
recorder you
might get room ambiance or the tone of the audience but, from the speakers
hardly a word unless you were aggressive and then you might get
cooperation or,
an aggressive response in turn.  What you recorded on camera would also be
boring:  Motionless bodies though one might turn from side to side now or
then.

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
http://www.doraweiner.org

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 22, 2003 at 4:51:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This conversation happened at least a few times already and after a lot
of people thought up names I think Mindvox ended up hosting at least
one or maybe two after ibogaine lists only for people who have done it.
I’m not on any of them but as far as I know they were like the old
calyx list which means they had 5 new messages in a month and then
trickled off to nothing. I could be wrong but someone who is on them or
moderates them here would know the answer better.

There is a after-ibo list or lists on mindvox already I just don’t know
their names, someone anyone?

The other talk about live conferences and personalities and all, I’m
sure that this list is more useful then all the conferences put
together because everyone in the entire ibogaine world at least reads
it and its a central place to make contact, but the personalities is
what makes it all come to life and makes it fun! ūüôā Otherwise you can
just go download the ibogaine science from ibogaine.org. I’ve never
been to a ibo conference but would love to go and if Patrick,
Pinchbeck, Doruba, Dana, Howard and all will be there, I’m going to
start saving up for tickets ūüôā I love the personality conflicts and
craziness ūüôā ūüôā ūüôā If I want science I can go read pubmed ūüôā ūüôā ūüôā I
dont want to pay to go to a conference and be bored, I want to have a
good time and be entertained! ūüôā

.:vector:.

— Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Bickering Schmickering. Thats my only comment on that. I just did a
gram of HCL for a detox and interuptor. It did its work of course. It
always seems to. Im doing many things differently this time. Its so
easy to get cocky with the ibo-glow hey? Nice, Im cured.

Heres a question. After care. Where is it? What does it look like?
Ive been looking into it for quite a while now. Ive been trying to
write it all out. Everything I can find because I want to put it all
together in case someone needs to read it. So far after every time
Ive done Ibogaine the only support I can find is this list. Studying
Ibogaine. All aspects of it. You guys are my unwitting teachers. I
know there are other eager minds out there. I have vitality that I
want to put to use.
I believe that there needs to be a list such as this for people who
have done Iboga but with a focus of after care.
I know Ibogaine leaves a bad taste in all our mouths when we eat it
but when you try to talk about it to people it leaves a bad taste in
their mouths through lack of understanding. My dads a Dr so you can
guess what talking to him is like. NA AA want honesty. What are you
doing now? Conversation ends there. This Church Ive been going to
with a program called Celebrate Recovery shunned me for the Ibogaine
and the Chinese Herbs I followed up with. What a stab. Its enough
getting it from the people in the world but thats why we need more
banding together on the list.
So its a solo mission and this list and the information on Iboga
like the Dossier and the books are all I have.
Im in Canada and cant leave the country to go to conferences so when
they happen it would be nice to hear the meat of them not the
“bickering”. I just would like to do something and the only thing I
can come up with is after care.

So, any links, suggestions, thoughts, opinions. I just need to be
pointed in a direction.

And Martine, I appreciate your fresh and positive views. It
encourages me very much. And I like reading your writings Preston. I
like how almost everyone on this list have some other huge project
that they take care of. Its such a huge fight for everything. The
whole Methadone things sucks. So lets start NAMA. You all do
something about something and I respect that because after reading up
on everyone, most of you come from where I am right now.

Another thing, I know both Marc and Sandra and I can give you
quality assurance. Marc is patient enough to deal with addicts like
myself and the only thing I saw in those postings was his sense of
humour.

And another-nother thing I was wondering is how many observers we
have. Like me. I just sat back for a year. Because Im young and I
really cant keep up with you guys. But for all the wallflowers hello
and you should say something. Because I cant be the only one who
needs to know that there are others out there who are fresh to the
whole experience.

As much as things seem to be clearer, minds are easily moulded post
Ibogaine I think. Because theres just so much you want to know. Its
like getting your boyhood curiosity back but alas I ramble…

Jaden

GanjaCat <ganjacat@ganjacat.net> wrote:You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of
story.

Marc Emery

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

From: peter moore <petermooremd@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering –
Date: November 22, 2003 at 4:11:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard wrote:
(snip)…and unless there were beds they would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table…

Howard,
You say that as though that’s a bad thing…
Ok, kidding aside, what about half a dose, or even a quarter? Because, as you know, that’s a whole other story.
First thing to go is one’s ego, it’s like hitting the ‘ejection-seat’ button…¬† And what, a good day or two before it reappears and at least 2 weeks on ‘best behavior’- but I digress…
The chakras, they kick into fourth gear and that takes a little getting use to, but then you settle on a pleasant, yet exhilarating, cruising altitude- make that; attitude…¬†¬† And the parlor tricks, like how you can hear thru walls and see people’s thoughts and vice versa.. Or how you suddenly gain ‘administrative privileges’ to your body and you just *know* everything there is to know about every single cell- heck you’re on a first name basis – except there’s no way of translating any of it into this primitive medium of communication (language)…
And yes, you get to glow; you glow like Saint Superman on a kundalini marathon on some tropical island. (I used to work in advertising, -sorry) Superlatives aside, it’s like running thru you’re usual checklist and coming up empty-handed insofar as desiring or requiring anything *whatsoever*. It’s this real and bottomless contentment that people seem to pick up on and under the right circumstances can even be contagious…
Of course at some point your glow will turn a tad greenish and if we’re talking “conference” here, this would be when the first few rows ought to skedaddle to the back…
Keep the cameras rolling, and you’ll catch some interdimensional/transgalactical/red-pill~blue-pill/REALLY REAL-TV! (really-really)
So I’m on a bit of a roll here, and besides a dash of hype, some of what I said pertains more to a full dose, nonetheless, as some of you ibo-vets can attest, it’s all true and then some….
But all this got me thinking, Howard, that while I have the utmost respect for you and for your work, AND without meaning to piss off anyone in particular, from where I stand, ‘ibo’ and ‘conference’ just don’t go together. You might as well have ibo business meetings..
For starters, in case no one noticed, until recently we had 2(!) 24/7, all year round, free for all, hyper-linked and multi-indexed conferences; calyx and mindvox. And best of all, you can attend in your underwear. It’s really that simple. All in favor, click your mouse.
Another point being; it’s not like we’re all pulling together, trying to get the current ibo ‘beta version’ to work- it works fine, it works great!! Whether it’s HCl or rootbark, Ethnogarden’s upcoming freebase extract or 15 year-old Indra- it works miraculously!!!¬† Moving on…
So how do you work with it?
My take, or insight, on it is that the primary objective in taking iboga ought to be; Integrity, call it inner-integrity or personal integrity, it’s really the reintegration thereof. It’s that first step. And when it clicks, you cherish and value that which you’ve regained above and beyond anything else. Get yourself there and everything else falls into place. (truth being, you can get there without taking ibo) It’s not about the cleansing, physical or otherwise, it’s not the alleviation of withdrawal symptoms nor eradicating cravings; it’s not about working thru childhood events nor about experiencing a rebirth as pleasant as that may be. All of these things are valid but secondary to that inner-integrity….¬† And you know what it feels like? Like this eagerness and willingness to pay all your dues, be they what they may be, it’s like this Rocky in you picking himself up and starts pummeling back (COME ON!!!) You suddenly know that you can rid yourself of all your demons; it’s like this glee in ya, it’s open season on personal demons and they know it… (COME ON!!!)
And down the road, one or a few may come into your life, seeking your assistance in this matter and you’ll find yourself in self-imposed servitude- and no less grateful for the opportunity to be of service than for having obtained the sacrament or the breakthru for yourself… but don’t tarry there, cuz that’s not cool either… This, imo, is how ibo will spread out, this is the new paradigm… ibo-vets being recruited by those in need, and not the other way around….
And my killer point; Why even bother trying to get iboga sanctioned or legitimatized by Uncle-Emperor Sam? While some of you may want him to switch his verdict from thumbs down to thumbs up, I’d rather see his entire arm applied as a self-administered rectal thermometer…¬† Besides, let’s imagine for a sec, no, not that,¬† that this ‘thumbs up’ came to pass, what then? Pharmaceutical giants sponsoring next year’s ibo conference in Las-Vegas or perhaps Hawaii? TV commercials for Ibo Patch҆? Judges sentencing offenders to ibo clinics…?
I’m way past giving a rat’s ass about all the lab coats, the blue uniforms, the black robes and the big wigs- they are collectively as irrelevant and as easily avoidable as dog shit on pavement; it’s just as ludicrous to ask their permission to move on past them, as it is to ask one’s ego to shrivel up and die voluntarily.
To sum things up, I do think that the best ibo conference would be where all the attendees would dose up, especially if that means not a peep for 3-4 days, because for them, like for the rest of us, what really matters, is where we go from there.

peace,
Pete

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/21/03 7:17:55 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

<< >On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would dose

up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to

see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<

I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with

pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands. >>

Well, if they dosed about two hours before the meeting with full therapeutic
doses , I doubt there would be presentations and unless there were beds they
would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table. As for a recorder you
might get room ambiance or the tone of the audience but, from the speakers
hardly a word unless you were aggressive and then you might get cooperation or,
an aggressive response in turn. What you recorded on camera would also be
boring: Motionless bodies though one might turn from side to side now or then.

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
http://www.doraweiner.org

 

Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 22, 2003 at 4:21:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for all your comments on that subject : Humour is such a gooooood vitamin !
I first misunderstood the invisible funny mood, and I was glad to get it, thanks to “The One” who did make it clear.
And yes, I think that the Ibo’s elders have to pay attention to avoid when possible those misunderstandings ūüėČ
That list is really precious.
I’ve checked in my dictionnary, and in my ” How to say it in english ” and in “Harraps’ idioms” and¬† I don’t get it, what does SOB mean ? I know now the word ” Bicker”, and I like it ūüėČ

Nice day for all !

Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

oh, forget it then.
;-))))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

>
> In a message dated 11/21/03 7:17:55 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
>
> << >On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would
dose
>
> up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to
>
> see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<
>
>
> I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with
>
> pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands. >>
>
> Well, if they dosed about two hours before the meeting with full
therapeutic
> doses , I doubt there would be presentations and unless there were beds
they
> would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table.  As for a
recorder you
> might get room ambiance or the tone of the audience but, from the speakers
> hardly a word unless you were aggressive and then you might get
cooperation or,
> an aggressive response in turn.  What you recorded on camera would also be
> boring:  Motionless bodies though one might turn from side to side now or
then.
>
> Howard
>
> Howard S. Lotsof
> President
> Dora Weiner Foundation
> http://www.doraweiner.org
>
>

From: Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 22, 2003 at 2:07:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bickering Schmickering. Thats my only comment on that. I just did a gram of HCL for a detox and interuptor. It did its work of course. It always seems to. Im doing many things differently this time. Its so easy to get cocky with the ibo-glow hey? Nice, Im cured.

Heres a question. After care. Where is it? What does it look like? Ive been looking into it for quite a while now. Ive been trying to write it all out. Everything I can find because I want to put it all together in case someone needs to read it. So far after every time Ive done Ibogaine the only support I can find is this list. Studying Ibogaine. All aspects of it. You guys are my unwitting teachers. I know there are other eager minds out there. I have vitality that I want to put to use.
I believe that there needs to be a list such as this for people who have done Iboga but with a focus of after care.
I know Ibogaine leaves a bad taste in all our mouths when we eat it but when you try to talk about it to people it leaves a bad taste in their mouths through lack of understanding. My dads a Dr so you can guess what talking to him is like. NA AA want honesty. What are you doing now? Conversation ends there. This Church Ive been going to with a program called Celebrate Recovery shunned me for the Ibogaine and the Chinese Herbs I followed up with. What a stab. Its enough getting it from the people in the world but thats why we need more banding together on the list.
So its a solo mission and this list and the information on Iboga like the Dossier and the books are all I have.
Im in Canada and cant leave the country to go to conferences so when they happen it would be nice to hear the meat of them not the “bickering”.¬†I just would like to do something and the only thing I can come up with is after care.

So, any links, suggestions, thoughts, opinions. I just need to be pointed in a direction.

And Martine, I appreciate your fresh and positive views. It encourages me very much. And I like reading your writings Preston. I like how almost everyone on this list have some other huge project that they take care of. Its such a huge fight for everything. The whole Methadone things sucks. So lets start NAMA. You all do something about something and I respect that because after reading up on everyone, most of you come from where I am right now.

Another thing, I know both Marc and Sandra and I can give you quality assurance. Marc is patient enough to deal with addicts like myself and the only thing I saw in those postings was his sense of humour.

And another-nother thing I was wondering is how many observers we have. Like me. I just sat back for a year. Because Im young and I really cant keep up with you guys. But for all the wallflowers hello and you should say something. Because I cant be the only one who needs to know that there are others out there who are fresh to the whole experience.

As much as things seem to be clearer, minds are easily moulded post Ibogaine I think. Because theres just so much you want to know. Its like getting your boyhood curiosity back but alas I ramble…

Jaden

GanjaCat <ganjacat@ganjacat.net> wrote:
You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

>All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

> Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
> in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.
>
> What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
> Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
> first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
> this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
> much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
> point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
> Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
> many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
> could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
> for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
> displays of ego battles could wait for another list…
>
> inflowe,
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “GanjaCat”
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
> To:
> Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
>
> > But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
> > something is learned from it.
> >
> > As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.
> >
> > >^..^<
> >
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
> >
> > wow! harsh review!
>
>
>

Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 21, 2003 at 4:49:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

oh, forget it then.
;-))))
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering

In a message dated 11/21/03 7:17:55 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

<< >On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would
dose

up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to

see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<

I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with

pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands. >>

Well, if they dosed about two hours before the meeting with full
therapeutic
doses , I doubt there would be presentations and unless there were beds
they
would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table.  As for a
recorder you
might get room ambiance or the tone of the audience but, from the speakers
hardly a word unless you were aggressive and then you might get
cooperation or,
an aggressive response in turn.  What you recorded on camera would also be
boring:  Motionless bodies though one might turn from side to side now or
then.

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
http://www.doraweiner.org

From: “arjen van den eerenbeemt” <aryen@aryenhart.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] please remove me from the list, thank you
Date: November 21, 2003 at 2:25:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

aryen@aryenhart.com

From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 21, 2003 at 2:11:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/20/2003 11:12:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
windforme@graffiti.net
So sorry to intrude, ……….
Thank you for being ‘cool’
Sincerely,
MonikaKumari  NeekaBhushan@aol.com

From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 21, 2003 at 2:07:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hewwo, my real name is Monika- pro-nounced like Mo’ -Neeka, so there’s my address, with my last/familly name Bhushan, it’s Indian… but me Mum is Eastern European,… generation gap be so misunderstood, but could we all just “get along?”
Sincerely,

Mo’-nika

From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering/HElLo, from Neeka
Date: November 21, 2003 at 1:58:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Greetings fellow emailers, Thank you so much for adding me to your list. I definitively-
ively hold all corespondences in the strictest of confidences… AND I do not have peoples’z going through my mail besides me… so, once again, THANX ! ( Thank You ).

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 21, 2003 at 10:27:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/21/03 7:17:55 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

<< >On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would dose

up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to

see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<

I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with

pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands. >>

Well, if they dosed about two hours before the meeting with full therapeutic
doses , I doubt there would be presentations and unless there were beds they
would probably be on the floor or thrown over the table.  As for a recorder you
might get room ambiance or the tone of the audience but, from the speakers
hardly a word unless you were aggressive and then you might get cooperation or,
an aggressive response in turn.  What you recorded on camera would also be
boring:  Motionless bodies though one might turn from side to side now or then.

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
http://www.doraweiner.org

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: a reminder of Friday’s reading event in NYC
Date: November 21, 2003 at 2:40:47 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:33 PM
Subject: a reminder of Friday’s reading event in NYC

HI all,
This is a reminder for all those who may find themselves in the
NYC/Lower East Side area tomorrow evening, Friday, November 21, 2003. From
8
to 10 PM there is going to be a reading event (that I’m participating in)
to draw attention to the War
on Some Drugs and Users and to benefit NY NORML at The Slipper Room, 167
Orchard Street, at the corner of Stanton Street.
All information is below.
Thanks and please excuse this repeated information. I sincerely hope to
see
many of you there.
Peace,
Preston (btw, while I believe the other readers are going to reading
poetry,
I myself will be reading a couple of stories about street life, hard
drugs,
and some who on occasion use those drugs.)

Poetry Reading to Benefit NORML (and End the War on Some Drugs and Users),
Features Sam Abrams, Bob Holman, Chi Chi Valenti and Preston Peet

On November 21, 2003, The Slipper Room will host a poetry reading from
8-10pm to benefit NORML. A suggested donation of $10 will be charged at
the
door.

Sam Abrams will begin the event by reading selections from his recently
published book, The Old Pothead Poems. Mr. Abrams is a professor of
language
and literature in the College of Liberal Arts at Rochester Institute of
Technology. At various times, he was Fulbright Professor of American
Literature in the University of Athens; Workshop Leader, St. Mark’s Poetry
Project; Member, Stone Academy, Organic Farming Commune, Enfield, New
Hampshire; Coordinator, Poets’ Caravan of Angry Arts Against the War in
Vietnam; Jailed (with Dr. Benjamin Spock, Grace Paley et al) for civil
disobedience. In addition to The Old Pothead Poems, Mr Abrams’ other books
include The Post American Cultural Congress, Bobbs-Merrill, 1974; The
Neglected Walt Whitman, Four Walls Eight Windows, 1993; The Old Pothead
Poems (chaplet), Backwoods Broadsides 1999. His most recent publication,
“We
Meet Today in Freedom’s Name,” can be read at
http://www.poetspath.com/napalm/nhs03/abrams.html.

Sharing the stage with Sam Abrams are:

Bob Holman (bobholman.com). Bob Holman is a firm believer in the “United
States of Poetry,” fronting poetry into daily life by all means. Holman
was
founding editor of the NYC Poetry Calendar in 1977, and has curated
reading
series at St. Marks Church (he worked at the Poetry Project for seven
years), the Whitney Museum, the Public Theater, and other locales. He won
three Emmys over six seasons producing Poetry Spots for WNYC-TV, received
a
Bessie Performance Award, has twice been Featured Artist at the Chicago
Poetry Video Festival and won International Public Television Awards for
USOP and Words in Your Face, a production of the PBS series “Alive TV.” He
produced the reading series rAP mEETS pOETRY with Bill Adler, which
resulted
in the “Fighting Wordz” intersticials on MTV. Holman is the proprietor of
The Bowery Poetry Club, chief curator of the Peoples’ Poetry Gathering
(peoplespoetry.org) in NYC, and guide for About.com’s poetry section
(poetry.about.com). Holman’s latest collection of poems, The Collect Call
of
the Wild, from Henry Holt is Holman’s fifth book. He is currently
collaborating on Praise Poems, a book of poems and photos with Chuck
Close.

Preston Peet. Preston Peet is a NYC writer, editor, musician, actor, dj,
activist and adventurer. A regular contributor to High Times magazine and
website, the editor of the controversial website DrugWar.com, and a
columnist for the New York Waste, he has published in a variety of
publications both in print and online, including “Media Bypass”, “Criminal
Justice 03/04”, “09/11 8:48AM- Documenting America’s Greatest Disaster”,
and
www.Alternet.org. Besides publishing over 60 articles at the popular
website
www.Disinfo.com, he has articles in the Disinformation Company’s first two
books, “You Are Being Lied To” and “Everything You Know Is Wrong”, and is
busy compiling and editing Disinformation’s upcoming “Under the Influence-
the Disinformation Guide to Drugs” slated for release in the Fall of 2004.
He lives in Manhattan with his other half and 9 rescued cats, and has been
known to smoke the occasional joint or three. “It’s time to end the War on
Some Drugs and Users.”

ChiChi Valenti. Chi Chi Valenti first emerged as a propagandist for New
York
nightclub utopias in the seminal DETAILS in 1988. Before and since, she’s
participated in alternative nightlife as a producer (Jackie 60 and Click +
Drag,) journalist (Village Voice, ID, Skin Two, Interview) doorperson (the
Mudd Club,) clubowner (MOTHER,) Mistress of Ceremonies and long-time
virtual
communitarian (motherboardsnyc.com). Her collected writings can be read at
http://www.mothernyc.com/empress/bibliography.html.

For more information, call The Slipper Room at 212-253-7246. The Slipper
Room is located at 167 Orchard Street, at the corner of Stanton Street in
New York City.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 21, 2003 at 2:10:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As a fellow canadian, I can vouch that Marc’s comment(s) pass for local
humor…He’s what we call a funny SOB….<

I thought it was funny what he wrote, but then I got up on the “right” side
of my bed today.
errr, yesterday.;-))

On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would dose
up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to
see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….<

I don’t think I’d pay, but I’d most certainly be there with
pad/recorder/pen/camera in hands.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: peter moore
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 11:54 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bickering

Sandra,
I for one hope you stick around and please do post, you sound great, and
with the possible exception of ‘b*llsheiza’, we do get your point…

GeeCee,
As a fellow canadian, I can vouch that Marc’s comment(s) pass for local
humor…He’s what we call a funny SOB….

Wrong side of bed kinda thing, eh?

On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would dose
up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to
see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….

peace,
Pete

“sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net> wrote:
what the????

i don’t get it…i’m not posting anymore, i guess my point wasn’t
understood. bye.

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat”
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:39:08 +0100
To:
Subject: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist Movement

You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 200! 3 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’! t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in! check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and! it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat”
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To:
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a littl! e more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 21, 2003 at 1:42:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve been reading this list nearly since it started,
which is a long time before marc emery ever dosed
anyone in canada with ibogaine. I’ve watched it grow
from a much smaller number of people to something that
keeps getting bigger and bigger and seen a lot of the
same problems come up and go away again at least a
dozen times.

I too have been upset about things that are said here,
taken them the wrong way and gotten sick of all of it
and stopped reading it for months before coming back.
Sometimes I’m not even sick of it I just become busy
and don’t pay as much attention and hit delete as
often as not unless I know who the poster is.

I could be wrong but I’ve seen nearly every person who
is attacked on this list also act like a really kind
and helpful person. I think that most of us believe in
ibogaine and do what we can to promote it in our own
ways. For me this just means talking to people I know
at 12 step meetings (ducking and hiding) or who knew
me when I was on methadone maintence and telling them
that this wonderful thing exists.

I think there have been a lot of attempts to get
everyone to agree or organize in one way or another
but everyone is a individual and has their own
opinions about how ibogaine should progress and as
I’ve also watched everyone here argue with one
another, I think that mostly people are friends and
nearly everything happens in the background off the
list anyway ūüėČ

I also think that a lot of people all have this idea
that they have the one right way to do things, but I
don’t think that’s true and I don’t think most people
want to be organized. Which as years have gone by has
made me appreciate a place that anyone can say
anything they want without fear of being censored or
told to stop. Sometimes there is a lot of noise and
anger here sometimes there are great people and good
information.

What I think I’m trying to say is if you want people
to act in a certain way, then you’re banging your head
against the wall and expecting people to do something
that they won’t do so it’s only going to lead to
making yourself unhappy. Don’t take it so seriously
and don’t take it personally, I don’t think half the
people who posted said anything except it was a good
show and they had a good time. Not exactly the same as
shit stirring but gossip is fun and people like a good
show ūüėČ The message gets across and everyone is
entertained I think that’s the general idea no?

Carla B

— Justin Thyme <ibogaine@homosapiens.net> wrote:
i understood

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine]
Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist Movement

what the????

i don’t get it…i’m not posting anymore, i guess
my point wasn’t
understood. bye.

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:39:08 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine]
Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist  Movement

You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament,
you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude,
leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery
[mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t
permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC
Ibogaine forum

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me
that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo
movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all
of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement
as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned
about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like
between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the
prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in
constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just
pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how
little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC
Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of
that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor
tangent you see, no big
deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on
this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my
style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all
of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to
me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo
movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be
all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems
counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it
seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues.
There are some on this
list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these
people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another
list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC
Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any
other review. Just hope
that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a
little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
[mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article,
NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

From: “Justin Thyme” <ibogaine@homosapiens.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 21, 2003 at 12:12:46 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i understood

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist Movement

what the????

i don’t get it…i’m not posting anymore, i guess my point wasn’t
understood. bye.

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:39:08 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist  Movement

You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: peter moore <petermooremd@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bickering
Date: November 20, 2003 at 11:54:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sandra,
I for one hope you stick around and please do post, you sound great, and with the possible exception of ‘b*llsheiza’, we do get your point…
GeeCee,
As a fellow canadian, I can vouch that Marc’s comment(s) pass for local humor…He’s what we call a funny SOB….

Wrong side of bed kinda thing, eh?

On the other hand, it’s not a bad idea if all them participants would dose up on ibo just before the next conference- now that’s something I’d pay to see…. imagine turning down the lights and the whole panel’s glowin’….

peace,
Pete

“sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net> wrote:
what the????

i don’t get it…i’m not posting anymore, i guess my point wasn’t understood. bye.

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat”
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:39:08 +0100
To:
Subject: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

> You arrogant S.O.B!
>
> Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?
>
> For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.
>
> Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
> those with the heart to do it from the heart.
>
> Fuming!
>
> GeeCee
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
>
> There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.
>
> Marc Emery
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
>
> >All I can say is that if
> this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
> seriously. There’s so
> much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
> Why? What’s the
> point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
> anywhere if this continues.<
>
> This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
> with a
> lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
> but
> would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
> opposed
> to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
> guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
> sometimes.
> This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
> the
> innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
> change in
> view is subsequently accomplished.
> Peace,
> Preston
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “sandra .”
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
>
>
> > Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
> Daniel
> trying to keep Patrick
> > in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
> deal.
> >
> > What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
> to be
> sh*t disturbers!
> > Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
> the
> point in it. This is the
> > first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
> forum.
> All I can say is that if
> > this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
> taken
> seriously. There’s so
> > much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
> sick.
> Why? What’s the
> > point? We ( and i do stress the “we” to be all of us) will never get
> anywhere if this continues.
> > Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
> productivity is a forte of
> > many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
> was
> created so that we
> > could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
> list
> who are looking
> > for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
> should come first. Cryptic
> > displays of ego battles could wait for another list…
> >
> > inflowe,
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: “GanjaCat”
> > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
> >
> > > But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
> that
> > > something is learned from it.
> > >
> > > As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.
> > >
> > > >^..^<
> > >
> > >
> > > —–Original Message—–
> > > From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
> > > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
> > >
> > > wow! harsh review!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 20, 2003 at 10:12:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

what the????

i don’t get it…i’m not posting anymore, i guess my point wasn’t understood. bye.

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:39:08 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist  Movement

You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: Marc Scott Emery <marc@cannabisculture.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 20, 2003 at 4:32:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dissent is permitted, just not unproductive bickering.

Marc Emery
Respected Elder

—–Original Message—–
From: GanjaCat [mailto:ganjacat@ganjacat.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 4:39 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the
Ibo/Activist Movement

You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Saddam Emery? RE: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 20, 2003 at 7:39:08 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You arrogant S.O.B!

Whatcha think you are, some kind of dictator?

For a dude who dare not even take the sacrament, you talk a big game.

Stick to conning dumb yankee potheads, dude, leave the dirty work to
those with the heart to do it from the heart.

Fuming!

GeeCee

—–Original Message—–
From: Marc Scott Emery [mailto:marc@cannabisculture.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: “Irvin” <jashley@manufree.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Trouble FINDING someone? (ksdw)
Date: November 18, 2003 at 7:48:29 PM EST
To: <iboga@guest.arnes.si>,<iboettcher@umagroup.com>,<ibogardus@reedexpo.com>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s what a new study is proposing: a “polypill” that could reduce cardiovascular disease by more than 80 percent.The authors of the study, published today in the British Medical Journal, claim that such an intervention would have a “greater impactThe implications for such a drug are enormous.The combination treatment would also have enormous potential for developing countries Oct. 1 √ŅFFFF97 Young adults who get mononucleosis, the √ŅFFFF93kissing disease,√ŅFFFF94 have more than double the risk of developing a rare type of cancer, a Danish study found.
Containing or based on a fallacy: a fallacious assumption.
Cli ck he re to st op fur ther mess ages WHITE HOUSE press secretary Scott McClellan came under intense pressure as reporters peppered him with questions about the investigation Wednesday afternoon. McClellan added little to his earlier reassurances that the White House would cooperate fully with the investigation. He did indicate, however, that the White House would consent, if asked, to have staff members submit to polygraph tests. √ŅFFFF93Full cooperation is full cooperation,√ŅFFFF94 he said. √ŅFFFF93I√ŅFFFF92ve seen news coverage like you have,√ŅFFFF94 he said at one point. √ŅFFFF93I√ŅFFFF92ve seen issues raised, and I think that√ŅFFFF92s best left for you in the media, not me from this podium.√ŅFFFF94

From: Marc Scott Emery <marc@cannabisculture.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bickering in the Ibo/Activist Movement
Date: November 19, 2003 at 1:40:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There is no bickering here in Canada. I don’t permit it. End of story.

Marc Emery

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell,
with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture
but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as
opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see
the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or
change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was
Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big
deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick
to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see
the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC
forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never
taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me
sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list
was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this
list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope
that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] FW: [UKCIA] Envisioning Uses For Hallucinogens
Date: November 19, 2003 at 2:04:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: owner-ukcia-l@sorted.org [mailto:owner-ukcia-l@sorted.org] On
Behalf Of Peter Webster
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:10 PM
To: drugnews@psychedelic-library.org
Subject: [UKCIA] Envisioning Uses For Hallucinogens

____________________________________________
Did you know that you could
earn money with Dot TK? It’s
simple. Become an affiliate
today and promote Dot TK on
your website!

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____________________________________________

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/living/health/7279890.htm

(c) 2003 Philadelphia Inquirer and wire service sources. All Rights
Reserved.

Posted on Mon, Nov. 17, 2003
Envisioning uses for hallucinogens
By Faye Flam
Inquirer Staff Writer

PETER T. FURST

At a March dwan in 1967, a shaman “raises” the sun into the sky with his

feather bundle.

Long before Timothy Leary and Ken Kesey and the counterculture
generation
discovered hallucinogenic drugs, the Indians of western Mexico were
using
peyote to commune with their gods.

Anthropologist Peter T. Furst, who spent 30 years among the Huichol
people,
says that Indian shamans have been using hallucinogenic plants as a
doorway
to the divine for thousands of years, likely following a tradition
carried
by their ancestors over the Bering Strait.

And now, some U.S. scientists are exploring how these substances might
be
used by doctors to battle anxiety, mental illness and alcoholism.

“These compounds hold tremendous potential for helping us understand how

the brain functions, and they have untapped potential for healing,” said

Charles Grob, a psychiatry professor at UCLA Medical School.

Some early studies suggest that LSD can ease the sense of dread that
people
feel when they are dying. “There were some very interesting and
promising
results,” said Grob. He recently secured approval from the Food and Drug

Administration to continue this line of inquiry using the milder drug
psilocybin, the active ingredient in hallucinogenic mushrooms.

“We’re really on the threshold of a new era of formal and very tightly
controlled sanctioned studies with hallucinogens to study their safety
and
efficacy,” Grob said.

In Philadelphia, a new show on peyote-inspired Huichol art opened this
month at the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Anthropology and
Archaeology. Furst, curator of the exhibition, said these are religious
images, created with the ritual use of the cactus plant.

“There’s a difference in nature between people who use this for religion

and those who are part of our counterculture,” said Furst, 81. A
German-born Jew, he moved to England and then the United States in the
1930s. A vaguely European accent gives him a serious, professorial air.

After writing for Stars and Stripes during World War II, Furst worked as
a
journalist for United Press before studying cultural anthropology. He
made
a specialty of studying shamanistic peoples and wrote numerous books,
including Hallucinogens and Culture.

He maintains that nearly all hunter-gatherer societies practiced
shamanistic religions, which often used hallucinogens or other
mind-altering techniques to see gods, the underworld, the meaning of
life.

Though he left the Penn museum a few years ago to live in Santa Fe,
Furst
returned this month for the opening of the exhibit, “Mythic Visions,” a
display of a Huichol artform known as yarn painting. In depicting
complex
arrays of dancing deer, snakes and other figures, the artist tries to
evoke
the visions he experiences with peyote.

Small bands of Huichol travel for 300 miles to a desolate spot deep in
the
Chihuahuan desert to hunt for the squat, round peyote cactus. Furst said
he
participated in Huichol peyote hunts and ceremonies and found the plant
extraordinarily unpalatable.

Furst suggests the Huichol once lived in the peyote-rich region but
moved
to avoid enemies or find more food.

Many other native North Americans used peyote as well as some more
potent
and dangerous drugs. An herb called datura has been used for
coming-of-age
ceremonies, Furst said. Archaeological finds in Texas show remnants of
peyote that date back around 7,000 years. Even earlier finds show a
hallucinogenic seed associated with remains of giant mastodons and other

Pleistocene animals that go back at least 10,000 years.

Furst said he believed it was likely the Huichol and other tribes
brought a
tradition of hallucinogen use from Siberia before they entered the
Americas
more than 15,000 years ago.

Others see evidence for shamanism in early Europe. “Shamanism emerged at

least 40,000 years ago and is reflected in Paleolithic rock art,” said
Michael Winkelman, an anthropologist from Arizona State University. “Not

all societies depended on hallucinogenic plants but where they found
them,
people built up institutions around these substances,” he said. “They
are
seen as a source of divine inspiration.”

When the Spanish invaded Mexico, they labeled peyote the “diabolic
root,”
Furst said, and tried to stamp out its use. In the 1960s, peyote
achieved a
cult following. After a long legal battle, Furst said, peyote was
legalized
in 1994 in the United States for members of certain American Indian
religions.

Arizona’s Winkelman said he believes there is something in human biology

that makes us want to reach for such altered states. And one infamous
incident known as the Good Friday Experiment seemed to show you didn’t
have
to practice shamanism to have a spiritual experience with hallucinogens.

On Good Friday 1962, some researchers at Harvard gave a small group of
divinity students either psilocybin or a placebo. Psilocybin, then
legal,
works much like peyote. “Eight of the nine people who got the drug
reported
they had had the most profound spiritual experiences of their lives,”
Winkelman said.

People use the term hallucinogen loosely to apply to many mind-altering
drugs, but peyote belongs to a small family that share similar modes of
action on the brain. They include psilocybin, LSD, and morning glory
seeds.

The chemical structure of these resembles a critical messenger molecule
in
the brain known as serotonin, said David Nichols, professor of medicinal

chemistry and pharmacology at Purdue University. When serotonin is
created
in the brain it works by attaching, lock-and-key fashion, to molecules
called serotonin receptors.

The brain has 14 different types of serotonin receptors, said Nichols,
and
the hallucinogenic substances dock in just one of these, called the
5HT2a
receptor. “You get the overstimulation of one receptor at the expense of

the others,” he said.

Hallucinogens act on receptors in the frontal cortex, sometimes called
the
executive part of the brain because it’s used for higher reasoning, he
said. They also act on a part of the brain called the thalamus, Nichols
said, which works to help us distinguish what’s novel and important.
That
may explain why people on LSD can become mesmerized by a flower or by
their
own hand.

Studies like the Good Friday Experiment ended after psilocybin and other

hallucinogens were made illegal in the late 1960s and early ’70s, but a
handful of scientists today are looking at ways these types of drugs
might
help people.

John Halpern, associate director of substance abuse research at Harvard
University and McLean Hospital, is investigating the possibility that
peyote prevents alcoholism in American Indians.

In a study he plans to publish within the next several months, he
compared
cognitive and psychological health measures among Indians who were
alcoholics, those who regularly used peyote, and those who used no drugs
or
alcohol.

Halpern said he can’t reveal his results yet, but he will say he sees no

evidence that peyote damages the brain. “There’s no history of it being
addictive, or trafficked or abused,” he said. Peyote can be dangerous if

people use it to get stoned and then do stupid things, he said, but
that’s
not what happens in religious ceremonies

“I’ve never seen any harm coming from this. In fact it’s just the
opposite
– it really brings families together,” he said.

Others, such as David Murray of the Office of National Drug Control
Policy
in Washington, see more serious risk. Working among the Navajo, he said,
he
found long-term peyote use was “counterproductive to education and
social
mobility.”

Because the peyote comes from a natural plant, he said, “you’re taking
in a
powerful chemical stew,” with some toxins in addition to the
psychoactive
ingredient. “It is, without question, a risky undertaking.”

Contact staff writer Faye Flam at 215-854-4977 or fflam@phillynews.com

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 18-MC
Date: November 19, 2003 at 3:22:19 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks a lot, wonderful !
Martine
—– Original Message —–
From: jenkster@resonance.org
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 18-MC

Dear Howard and List,

BTW, speaking of publications, there are now a good number of scanned,
old papers available on puzzlepiece.org. Enjoy!

Yours,

Chris

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 18-MC
Date: November 18, 2003 at 11:52:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/18/03 11:25:28 PM, jenkster@resonance.org writes:

BTW, speaking of publications, there are now a good number of scanned,
old papers available on puzzlepiece.org. Enjoy!

Exceptional work Chris.  Well done.

Howard

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] try again
Date: November 18, 2003 at 8:53:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

oops! sorry about that! I am not real puter savvy! If sending this out on the list is a problem let me know!
Callie

Subject: Breast Cancer Site needs your help

Please tell ten friends to tell ten today! The Breast Cancer site is
having trouble getting enough people to click on it daily to meet their
quota of donating at least one free mammogram a day to an
underprivileged woman.

It takes less than a minute to go to their site and click on “donating
a mammogram” for free (pink window in the middle). This doesn’t cost
you a thing. Their corporate sponsors/advertisers use the number of
daily visits to donate mammogram in exchange for advertising.

Here’s the web site! Pass it along to people you know

www.thebreastcancersite.com <http://www.thebreastcancersite.com>

PLEASE TELL 10 FRIENDS TO TELL 10 TODAY

From: “Tommy” <tgoodson7@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fwd: Fw: Breast Cancer Site needs your help
Date: November 18, 2003 at 8:11:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The attachment did not come through!!   Try again.

Tommy Goodson
—– Original Message —–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ccruze83@yahoo.com ; AmericanGirl1967@aol.com ; amy@golfstats.com ; Ginaamericangirl@cs.com ; caustin1961@netzero.net ; RAUSTIN72@aol.com ; teenabarker@yahoo.com ; IAMACOMPBABE@yahoo.com ; BobbieHallWood@aol.com ; BubbaBob0013@aol.com ; TPwebsite@aol.com ; ClarissaBurgess@aol.com ; GLASSHEARTNSOUL@COMCAST.NET ; Crazyhorse1961@msn.com ; eadietz@dandy.net ; jinxks@hotmail.com ; tplover2@yahoo.com ; elizabethulrich@msn.com ; halfbakedchick@hotmail.com ; tennvols00@hotmail.com ; thehinsons@hotmail.com ; Marlyn3@aol.com ; ibogaine@mindvox.com ; Klaudt@MCN.net ; LisaWench007@aol.com ; thomm81@hotmail.com ; mw44116@yahoo.com ; miriamplastow@yahoo.com ; Quilt4me@aol.com ; AinWW@aol.com ; SandersMawMaw@aol.com ; kcd5969@bellsouth.net ; tuck7837@bellsouth.net ; Hibthat@aol.com ; TinyOne57@aol.com ; sinkpo@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 3:29 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: Fw: Breast Cancer Site needs your help

I know most folks hate forwarded mail BUT……I hope you see this one as different. Please read!
Peace, Tammy

From: jenkster@resonance.org
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 18-MC
Date: November 18, 2003 at 6:22:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Howard and List,

BTW, speaking of publications, there are now a good number of scanned,
old papers available on puzzlepiece.org. Enjoy!

Yours,

Chris

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] 18-MC
Date: November 18, 2003 at 6:03:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2003 Jun;75(3):607-18.

Anti-addictive actions of an iboga alkaloid congener: a novel mechanism for a
novel treatment.
Maisonneuve IM, Glick SD.
Center for Neuropharmacology and Neuroscience, Albany Medical College,
MC-136, 47 New Scotland Avenue, Albany, NY 12208, USA. maisoni@mail.amc.edu
18-Methoxycoronaridine (18-MC), a novel iboga alkaloid congener that
decreases drug self-administration in several animal models, may be a potential
treatment for multiple forms of drug abuse. In animal models, 18-MC reduced
intravenous morphine, cocaine, methamphetamine and nicotine self-administration, oral
alcohol and nicotine intake, and attenuated signs of opioid withdrawal, but
had no effect on responding for a nondrug reinforcer (water) and produced no
apparent toxicity [Brain Res. 719 (1996) 29; NeuroReport 11 (2000) 2013;
Pharmacol. Biochem. Behav. 58 (1997) 615; Psychopharmacology (Berl.) 139 (1998) 274;
NeuroReport 9 (1998) 1283; Ann. N. Y. Acad. Sci. 914 (2000) 369]. Consistent
with a relationship among drug sensitization, mesolimbic dopamine, and
drug-seeking behavior, 18-MC also blocked the sensitized dopamine responses to morphine
and cocaine in the nucleus accumbens. An extensive series of receptor studies
showed that 18-MC was most potent and somewhat selective as an antagonist at
alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors. Low-dose combinations of 18-MC with other
drugs known to have this same action (e.g., mecamylamine, dextromethorphan,
bupropion) decreased morphine, methamphetamine, and nicotine self-administration in
rats at doses that were ineffective if administered alone. Together, the data
support the hypothesis that diencephalic pathways having high densities of
alpha3beta4 nicotinic receptors modulate mesocorticolimbic pathways more
directly involved in drug reinforcement. Antagonists of alpha3beta4 nicotinic
receptors may represent a totally novel approach to treating multiple addictive
disorders, and 18-MC might be the first of a new class of synthetic agents acting
via this novel mechanism and having a broad spectrum of activity.

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 18, 2003 at 5:48:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Why can’t we all just get along.”
-Rodney King

Say, why not work together? I do believe we are the minority fighting an oppressive majority.

On the bright side the Los Angeles CBS affiliate broadcast a very positive piece on ibo last night. As L.A. is the cultural center of the Universe and all trends start here, who knows? Celebrity junkies kicking via ibogaine (and going public) would certainly help in this star-fucker culture of ours.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:22:05 -0500

>All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell, with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

> Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
> in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big deal.
>
> What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick to be
sh*t disturbers!
> Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see the
point in it. This is the
> first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC forum.
All I can say is that if
> this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
> much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
> point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
> Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
> many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list was
created so that we
> could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this list
who are looking
> for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
> displays of ego battles could wait for another list…
>
> inflowe,
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
>
> > But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope that
> > something is learned from it.
> >
> > As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.
> >
> > >^..^<
> >
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
> >
> > wow! harsh review!
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Page a contact’s mobile phone with MSN Messenger.  Get it  FREE!  http://www.msnmessenger-download.com

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 18, 2003 at 5:22:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.<

This is the same in the entire reform movement as near as I can tell, with a
lot of folk out there who aren’t too concerned about the broader picture but
would rather indluge in squabbling and the like between ourselves as opposed
to ending the freakin’ war by opposing the prohibitionists themselves. I
guess it’s easier to bicker than really fight in constructive ways
sometimes.
This is by no means a diss to anyone, just pointing out that I see the
innermovement bickering all the time and how little real reform or change in
view is subsequently accomplished.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was Daniel
trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick to be
sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see the
point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC forum.
All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken
seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick.
Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get
anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that
productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list was
created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this list
who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that
should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: Fw: Breast Cancer Site needs your help
Date: November 18, 2003 at 4:29:54 PM EST
To: ccruze83@yahoo.com, AmericanGirl1967@aol.com, amy@golfstats.com, Ginaamericangirl@cs.com, caustin1961@netzero.net, RAUSTIN72@aol.com, teenabarker@yahoo.com, IAMACOMPBABE@yahoo.com, BobbieHallWood@aol.com, BubbaBob0013@aol.com, TPwebsite@aol.com, ClarissaBurgess@aol.com, GLASSHEARTNSOUL@COMCAST.NET, Crazyhorse1961@msn.com, eadietz@dandy.net, jinxks@hotmail.com, tplover2@yahoo.com, elizabethulrich@msn.com, halfbakedchick@hotmail.com, tennvols00@hotmail.com, thehinsons@hotmail.com, Marlyn3@aol.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Klaudt@MCN.net, LisaWench007@aol.com, thomm81@hotmail.com, mw44116@yahoo.com, miriamplastow@yahoo.com, Quilt4me@aol.com, AinWW@aol.com, SandersMawMaw@aol.com, kcd5969@bellsouth.net, tuck7837@bellsouth.net, Hibthat@aol.com, TinyOne57@aol.com, sinkpo@yahoo.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I know most folks hate forwarded mail BUT……I hope you see this one as different. Please read!
Peace, Tammy
From: “Wholistic Connections” <wconnect@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Fw: Breast Cancer Site needs your help
Date: November 18, 2003 at 1:42:57 PM EST
To: “Winnie Forrester” <wgforrester@comcast.net>, “Terri Guthrie” <tguthrie@nespower.com>, “Tanya Grabher” <grabhertm@aol.com>, “Tammy Nix” <CallieMimosa@aol.com>, “Susan DePue” <susan@susandepue.com>, “Steve Emigh” <vities@worldnet.att.net>, “Star Scoggin” <star111sc@yahoo.com>, “Sharon Milewski” <samilewski@yahoo.com>, “Sarah Leake” <Sarah.Leake@crosslinvaden.com>, “Sally Mule” <activesingles@hotmail.com>, “Rosalyn Tullos” <azalea@vzinet.com>, “Rick Anderson” <rickwayne1950@comcast.net>, “Pamela Alexis Moss” <alexis.moss@mindspring.com>, “Pam McCloud” <p1963mc@nctc.com>, “MSF” <farleyms@comcast.net>, <MissyBradley@aol.com>, <MISSUSCLAY@aol.com>, “Michelle/Arthur” <Wasiii7@cs.com>, “michelle lindsay” <mickymud@hotmail.com>, “Micheal Rigsby” <imok_2day@yahoo.com>, “Melanie Mayfield” <mmayfield@tnonc.com>, “Marti Kimerling” <cbr0521@kinkos.com>, “Margaret Dye” <margaretdye@comcast.net>, “Letha Edwards” <letha@bigmeankitty.com>, “Larissa Lentile” <findahome@larissalentile.com>, <Keeptouch@aol.com>, “Kaye Russell” <kayki7@yahoo.com>, “Kathy Demonbreun” <kddvolfan@yahoo.com>, <KathrynRigsby@jsmc.org>, “Karen Hall” <ktbs@bellsouth.net>, “Karen Christ” <puremajic@bellsouth.net>, “Jill Flatt” <FFSNashville@aol.com>, “Jayne Owens” <tjowens@usit.net>, “Janice Thomas” <tn3wrc@bellsouth.net>, “Jan Fox” <henryfox2@juno.com>, “Hailey, Martina” <martina.hailey@Vanderbilt.Edu>, <gloria@powercomsolutionsllc.com>, “Felicia Faye Brown” <feeefeee5@yahoo.com>, “Donna Calhoun” <finnygal@chatbits.org>, “Dixie Sherrill” <dixiesherrill@yahoo.com>, “Dianna Lee Sadler” <diannasadler@netzero.net>, “Deren Rothenberger” <drothenberger@kingballow.com>, “Deena Turner” <deena@womenm-powered.net>, “Dana Smith” <danasmith24@hotmail.com>, “Carolynn Remington” <carolynnremington@marykay.com>, “Candy McCampbell” <CMcCampbell@msn.com>, “Brittany Moss” <softballbritt931@hotmail.com>, “Beth & Bart Gilbert” <Ta2dDiva@aol.com>, “Annette Fletcher” <fletch61@nctc.com>, “Anna B. Webb” <thenashcal@aol.com>, “Angie Newman” <LLadyBluze@aol.com>, “Amy Mills” <AMills6708@comcast.net>, <a.enroth@att.net>

—– Original Message —–
From: The Women’s Resource Center, Inc.
To: Nashville NAWBO
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:50 PM
Subject: Breast Cancer Site needs your help

Please tell ten friends to tell ten today! The Breast Cancer site is
having trouble getting enough people to click on it daily to meet their
quota of donating at least one free mammogram a day to an
underprivileged woman.

It takes less than a minute to go to their site and click on “donating
a mammogram” for free (pink window in the middle). This doesn’t cost
you a thing. Their corporate sponsors/advertisers use the number of
daily visits to donate mammogram in exchange for advertising.

Here’s the web site! Pass it along to people you know

www.thebreastcancersite.com <http://www.thebreastcancersite.com>

PLEASE TELL 10 FRIENDS TO TELL 10 TODAY

From: “sandra .” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 18, 2003 at 4:09:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Whoa, I was right there and didn’t see any of that…all i saw was Daniel trying to keep Patrick
in check with his time, there was a minor tangent you see, no big deal.

What I don’t understand is why some of you on this list are so quick to be sh*t disturbers!
Blowing things way out of proportion is not my style and I don’t see the point in it. This is the
first opportunity I’ve had to respond to all of this since the NYC forum. All I can say is that if
this continues it would be of no surprise to me that Ibo is never taken seriously. There’s so
much infighting and b*llsheiza within the ibo movement it makes me sick. Why? What’s the
point? We ( and i do stress ¬†the “we” to be all of us) will never get anywhere if this continues.
Sometimes it’s funny, but mostly it seems counterproductive. Not that productivity is a forte of
many on this list, but it could be and it seems to me that this list was created so that we
could communicate on these important issues. There are some on this list who are looking
for information, help and support, it is these people’s concerns that should come first. Cryptic
displays of ego battles could wait for another list…

inflowe,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:40 +0100
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope that
something is learned from it.

As Elvis said “A little less conversation a little more action”.

^..^<

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Narcotics officers transferred on charges of overtime abuses
Date: November 17, 2003 at 12:27:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So what I want to know is when do criminal charges get filed against any of
these officers, and why are they still working in the NYPD at all?

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny–police-overtime1117nov17,0,4971794.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire
Narcotics officers transferred on charges of overtime abuses

NEW YORK (AP) _ Facing charges that they cheated the police department of
thousands of dollars in overtime pay, 24 detectives and six sergeants have
been transferred from the department’s Brooklyn South narcotics unit.

The transfers resulted from a yearlong investigation that also brought
administrative and departmental charges against other officers and
supervisors, according to published reports. In all, 69 NYPD employees face
charges ranging from falsifying records to failing to supervise.

Michael O’Looney, an NYPD spokesman, announced the transfers Sunday. He said
detectives from other narcotics offices would be transferred to Brooklyn
South to fill the new vacancies there.

The 30 transferred officers reported between $45,000 to $50,000 in false
overtime, O’Looney told The New York Times for the paper’s Monday editions.
snip-

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Sweet tooth, a marker for alcoholism
Date: November 15, 2003 at 12:24:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ahhhhh yes! Another thing for me to blame by dependency¬† on….my sweet tooth!¬† lol
Peace to all! callie

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC benefit to end WOSDU/assist NORML info
Date: November 15, 2003 at 12:15:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
I realize that some of you receiving this will probably not be able to make it to¬†the Apple¬†for this event, but those who can and do¬†will find themselves enjoying an honest to goodness rock n’ roll evening at one of NYC’s more exotic and interesting neighborhood boites, at this shindig dedicated to art, reading, music and an end to this stinkin’, corruptin’, asinine and wasteful¬†War on Some Drugs and Users.
Please feel free to forward this notice to all and sundry, and do not hesitate to make your presense known to me if you do show up at the event. I look forward to the pleasure of seeing all those I already know, and of finally meeting those I only know online to this point.
Peace,
Preston

Poetry Reading to Benefit NORML (and End the War on Some Drugs and Users), Features Sam Abrams, Bob Holman, Chi Chi Valenti and Preston Peet

On November 21, 2003, The Slipper Room will host a poetry reading from 8-10pm to benefit NORML. A suggested donation of $10 will be charged at the door.

Sam Abrams will begin the event by reading selections from his recently published book, The Old Pothead Poems. Mr. Abrams is a professor of language and literature in the College of Liberal Arts at Rochester Institute of Technology. At various times, he was Fulbright Professor of American Literature in the University of Athens; Workshop Leader, St. Mark’s Poetry Project; Member, Stone Academy, Organic Farming Commune, Enfield, New Hampshire; Coordinator, Poets’ Caravan of Angry Arts Against the War in Vietnam; Jailed (with Dr. Benjamin Spock, Grace Paley et al) for civil disobedience. In addition to The Old Pothead Poems, Mr Abrams¬í other books include The Post American Cultural Congress, Bobbs-Merrill, 1974; The Neglected Walt Whitman, Four Walls Eight Windows, 1993; The Old Pothead Poems (chaplet), Backwoods Broadsides 1999. His most recent publication, ¬ďWe Meet Today in Freedom¬ís Name,¬Ē can be read at http://www.poetspath.com/napalm/nhs03/abrams.html.

Sharing the stage with Sam Abrams are:

Bob Holman (bobholman.com). Bob Holman is a firm believer in the ¬ďUnited States of Poetry,¬Ē fronting poetry into daily life by all means. Holman was founding editor of the NYC Poetry Calendar in 1977, and has curated reading series at St. Marks Church (he worked at the Poetry Project for seven years), the Whitney Museum, the Public Theater, and other locales. He won three Emmys over six seasons producing Poetry Spots for WNYC-TV, received a Bessie Performance Award, has twice been Featured Artist at the Chicago Poetry Video Festival and won International Public Television Awards for USOP and Words in Your Face, a production of the PBS series “Alive TV.¬Ē He produced the reading series rAP mEETS pOETRY with Bill Adler, which resulted in the “Fighting Wordz” intersticials on MTV. Holman is the proprietor of The Bowery Poetry Club, chief curator of the Peoples¬í Poetry Gathering (peoplespoetry.org) in NYC, and guide for About.com¬ís poetry section (poetry.about.com). Holman¬ís latest collection of poems, The Collect Call of the Wild, from Henry Holt is Holman’s fifth book. He is currently collaborating on Praise Poems, a book of poems and photos with Chuck Close.

Preston Peet. Preston Peet is a NYC writer, editor, musician, actor, dj, activist and adventurer. A regular contributor to High Times magazine and website, the editor of the controversial website DrugWar.com, and a columnist for the New York Waste, he has published in a variety of publications both in print and online, including “Media Bypass”, “Criminal Justice 03/04”, “09/11 8:48AM- Documenting America’s Greatest Disaster”, and www.Alternet.org. Besides publishing over 60 articles at the popular website www.Disinfo.com, he has articles in the Disinformation Company’s first two books, “You Are Being Lied To” and “Everything You Know Is Wrong”, and is busy compiling and editing Disinformation’s upcoming “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs” slated for release in the Fall of 2004. He lives in Manhattan with his other half and 9 rescued cats, and has been known to smoke the occasional joint or three. “It’s time to end the War on Some Drugs and Users.”

ChiChi Valenti. Chi Chi Valenti first emerged as a propagandist for New York nightclub utopias in the seminal DETAILS in 1988. Before and since, she’s participated in alternative nightlife as a producer (Jackie 60 and Click + Drag,) journalist (Village Voice, ID, Skin Two, Interview) doorperson (the Mudd Club,) clubowner (MOTHER,) Mistress of Ceremonies and long-time virtual communitarian (motherboardsnyc.com). Her collected writings can be read at http://www.mothernyc.com/empress/bibliography.html.

For more information, call The Slipper Room at 212-253-7246. The Slipper Room is located at 167 Orchard Street, at the corner of Stanton Street in New York City.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC benefit to End WOSDU/assist NORML info
Date: November 15, 2003 at 12:04:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
I realize that some of you receiving this will probably not be able to make it to¬†the Apple¬†for this event, but those who can and do¬†will find themselves enjoying an honest to goodness rock n’ roll evening at one of NYC’s more exotic and interesting neighborhood boites, at this shindig dedicated to art, reading, music and an end to this stinkin’, corruptin’, asinine and wasteful¬†War on Some Drugs and Users.
Please feel free to forward this notice to all and sundry, and do not hesitate to make your presense known to me if you do show up at the event. I look forward to the pleasure of seeing all those I already know, and of finally meeting those I only know online to this point.
Peace,
Preston

Poetry Reading to Benefit NORML (and End the War on Some Drugs and Users), Features Sam Abrams, Bob Holman, Chi Chi Valenti and Preston Peet

On November 21, 2003, The Slipper Room will host a poetry reading from 8-10pm to benefit NORML. A suggested donation of $10 will be charged at the door.

Sam Abrams will begin the event by reading selections from his recently published book, The Old Pothead Poems. Mr. Abrams is a professor of language and literature in the College of Liberal Arts at Rochester Institute of Technology. At various times, he was Fulbright Professor of American Literature in the University of Athens; Workshop Leader, St. Mark’s Poetry Project; Member, Stone Academy, Organic Farming Commune, Enfield, New Hampshire; Coordinator, Poets’ Caravan of Angry Arts Against the War in Vietnam; Jailed (with Dr. Benjamin Spock, Grace Paley et al) for civil disobedience. In addition to The Old Pothead Poems, Mr Abrams¬í other books include The Post American Cultural Congress, Bobbs-Merrill, 1974; The Neglected Walt Whitman, Four Walls Eight Windows, 1993; The Old Pothead Poems (chaplet), Backwoods Broadsides 1999. His most recent publication, ¬ďWe Meet Today in Freedom¬ís Name,¬Ē can be read at http://www.poetspath.com/napalm/nhs03/abrams.html.

Sharing the stage with Sam Abrams are:

Bob Holman (bobholman.com). Bob Holman is a firm believer in the ¬ďUnited States of Poetry,¬Ē fronting poetry into daily life by all means. Holman was founding editor of the NYC Poetry Calendar in 1977, and has curated reading series at St. Marks Church (he worked at the Poetry Project for seven years), the Whitney Museum, the Public Theater, and other locales. He won three Emmys over six seasons producing Poetry Spots for WNYC-TV, received a Bessie Performance Award, has twice been Featured Artist at the Chicago Poetry Video Festival and won International Public Television Awards for USOP and Words in Your Face, a production of the PBS series “Alive TV.¬Ē He produced the reading series rAP mEETS pOETRY with Bill Adler, which resulted in the “Fighting Wordz” intersticials on MTV. Holman is the proprietor of The Bowery Poetry Club, chief curator of the Peoples¬í Poetry Gathering (peoplespoetry.org) in NYC, and guide for About.com¬ís poetry section (poetry.about.com). Holman¬ís latest collection of poems, The Collect Call of the Wild, from Henry Holt is Holman’s fifth book. He is currently collaborating on Praise Poems, a book of poems and photos with Chuck Close.

Preston Peet. Preston Peet is a NYC writer, editor, musician, actor, dj, activist and adventurer. A regular contributor to High Times magazine and website, the editor of the controversial website DrugWar.com, and a columnist for the New York Waste, he has published in a variety of publications both in print and online, including “Media Bypass”, “Criminal Justice 03/04”, “09/11 8:48AM- Documenting America’s Greatest Disaster”, and www.Alternet.org. Besides publishing over 60 articles at the popular website www.Disinfo.com, he has articles in the Disinformation Company’s first two books, “You Are Being Lied To” and “Everything You Know Is Wrong”, and is busy compiling and editing Disinformation’s upcoming “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs” slated for release in the Fall of 2004. He lives in Manhattan with his other half and 9 rescued cats, and has been known to smoke the occasional joint or three. “It’s time to end the War on Some Drugs and Users.”

ChiChi Valenti. Chi Chi Valenti first emerged as a propagandist for New York nightclub utopias in the seminal DETAILS in 1988. Before and since, she’s participated in alternative nightlife as a producer (Jackie 60 and Click + Drag,) journalist (Village Voice, ID, Skin Two, Interview) doorperson (the Mudd Club,) clubowner (MOTHER,) Mistress of Ceremonies and long-time virtual communitarian (motherboardsnyc.com). Her collected writings can be read at http://www.mothernyc.com/empress/bibliography.html.

For more information, call The Slipper Room at 212-253-7246. The Slipper Room is located at 167 Orchard Street, at the corner of Stanton Street in New York City.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Sweet tooth, a marker for alcoholism
Date: November 15, 2003 at 10:38:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=283343

Sweet tooth, a marker for alcoholism

ANI[ FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2003 06:24:19 PM ]

WASHINGTON: A liking for sweets precedes alcoholism and may in fact serve as
a “marker” for the genetic risk for developing alcoholism.

This is the conclusion of a U.S. study published in the November issue of
Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research.

“Previous research has established that in mammals, such as mice, rats and
monkeys, the preference for and consumption of sweet fluids are strongly
correlated with voluntary alcohol intake,” said the study’s first author
Alexei B. Kampov-Polevoy, assistant professor of psychiatry at Mt. Sinai
School of Medicine.

“It is thus possible to measure the amount of sweet solution that an animal
drinks per day and accurately predict how much alcohol it will drink if
given a chance,” he added.

snip-

From: marc420emery@shaw.ca
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece
Date: November 14, 2003 at 7:08:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You can actually get KTLA on digital cable here in British Columbia, but I will be in Newfoundland on Monday so I hope its all good. The scenes at ITH looked neat., I saw it on their monitors.

Marc Emery
Iboga House

—– Original Message —–
From: Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, November 14, 2003 7:04 am
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece

It’s the local 11 pm newscast, only in L.A. I helped the producer
out and
provided her with some footage. The producer seems sincere about
wanting to
give hope to addicts and provide information about ibo. She got
the idea
from reading the LA Weekly article and filmed treatment at the
Ibogaine
Therapy House in Vancouver.

Los Angeles CBS local news 11 PM Monday night. Check it out if you
can.

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:58:38 EST

What is the name of the program please?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more.
http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece
Date: November 14, 2003 at 3:06:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/14/03 10:16:06 AM, stevenanker@hotmail.com writes:

The Los Angeles CBS affiliate will be airing a piece on ibogaine Monday
at
11 PM.

Ibogaine makes sweeps week!

So who made it to the filming?

Howard

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] thank you
Date: November 14, 2003 at 10:31:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Justin,

Congradulations on getting your life back, enjoy.

Just FYI/FWIW. Some people require more than one
treatment, some don’t, I am sure I will do it again
though I don’t have any addictions to conquer – in
more moderate dosages. Some of “IT” (the
ibo/knowledge/understanding/nor-ibo plugged into
receptors…) fades in time, some of it doesn’t.
Meaning, a lot of goodness is still ahead but a lot of
the ibo-glow will fade, things tend to get more normal
– and often more challenging as time goes on. Get a
life, work on yourself, “enjoy” for sure, be true to
yourself (you know what to and what not to do…),
yadda, yadda.

What happened to me was that after my first 6 months
it was like “where did IT go”, and then things got
difficult (for me) and I needed re-treats/boosters. In
retrospect, 20/20 I really can’t say there isn’t some
kind of therapy or something I didn’t do that I should
have done – no. There are others who seem to do fine
with just 1 tx and never look back.

Anyway, just a heads-up, the glow fades, life comes
back, shit happens and no, you don’t have to get high
over it, what is the use anyway??? But now, you KNOW,
you can have freedom, you can have your life, you can
have a future, ABSOLUTELY without a doubt and it is
now;

“YOUR CHOICE”

You are very welcome BTW, it would be nice to hear
your story/experience, if you feel like sharing.

Brett

— Justin Thyme <ibogaine@homosapiens.net> wrote:
i took ibogaine 1 month ago, it was an amazing
experience. i’m feeling stronger everyday. it
feeeeeeels so good to be alive again after almost 10
grueling years as a junkie. thank you, everyone,
everything. thank you so much.

justin thyme

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece
Date: November 14, 2003 at 10:04:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s the local 11 pm newscast, only in L.A. I helped the producer out and provided her with some footage. The producer seems sincere about wanting to give hope to addicts and provide information about ibo. She got the idea
from reading the LA Weekly article and filmed treatment at the Ibogaine
Therapy House in Vancouver.

Los Angeles CBS local news 11 PM Monday night. Check it out if you can.

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:58:38 EST

What is the name of the program please?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece
Date: November 14, 2003 at 7:58:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What is the name of the program please?

From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Medical marijuana advocates
Date: November 14, 2003 at 5:32:17 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As someone who is in Holland for exactly the same reasons that the
Kubbys are in Canada (But without the resources and backing to try to
make the same legal points against the UK govt, although I tried – even
spending 36 hrs in an ‘asylum receiving centre’ last year) and also as
long-time follower of the pioneering work Steve & Michele have done for
medipot, I can do nothing but applaud their efforts and pray for a just
decision – although I fear that the same forces which caused Canada to
backtrack over it’s pot laws will come into effect again. (ie – the
AmeriKKKan Federal Govt)

“Closer to home”, someone I care about & respect a hell of a lot is next
month facing an appeal court hearing to try to overturn what is in
effect a ‘commercial cultivation’ charge because she is in fact a
medical user & grower, and a registered healer. On the say-so of 2 US
‘patients’ who had spent the last 6 weeks as part of her family, her
home was raided by 10 ‘tooled up’ officers and she was treated like a
common criminal. Her conviction was rubber-stamped at the lower courts
without any heed to the evidence.

Next month sees her only chance to ‘clear her name’.

Where is this taking place?

Here in Holland. Don’t think that because we’ve got liberal drug laws
here that everything is so hunky-dory the rest of the world can ignore
us.

If anyone can think of anything that would help, mail me off-list
please.

Blessings

Alan

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:15 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Medical marijuana advocates

ORIGINAL POST FOLLOWS
**************************

Medical marijuana advocates Michele and Steve Kubby are anticipating a
ruling

“any day

now” on their historic bid to become Canada’s first
officially-sanctioned

reefer

refugees.

The Kubbys fled to Canada from California three years ago, after Steve
was

found guilty

of minor drug law violations and was told that he would not be able to
use

life-saving

medical marijuana after his conviction.

Steve Kubby suffers from a rare form of cancer, and has long argued that

marijuana is

the only reason that the cancer has not killed him. A recent article in
the

prestigious

journal “Nature” agreed with Kubby, stating that marijuana killed cancer

tumors by

cutting off their blood supply.

The Kubbys worked for Marc Emery’s Pot-TV network when they first arrive
in

Canada,

anchoring the popular Pot-TV News. Steve Kubby also received a coveted
Health

Canada

medical marijuana possession and grow license. He grows dozens of
marijuana

plants in a

high-tech grow room provided to him by Canadian marijuana products
company

Advanced

Nutrients, which conducts pharmaceutical, genetic, and plant physiology

research on the

crops grown by Kubby.

Earlier this year, Michele Kubby acted as her own lawyer in hearings
before

an

immigration judge. The Kubbys are seeking official refugee status. They
argue

that

Steve would die in America if he was sent back to face incarceration or
other

actions

relating to his earlier conviction, because authorities will not
guarantee

him access

to medpot. They also claim they would be victims of political
persecution as

individuals, and as part of a persecuted minority – pot smokers – who
are

targets of a

“genocidal” US-government war. If the Kubbys win refugee status, it will
be

historic,

because the ruling will in effect mean that the Canadian government has

acknowledged

that the US is a country that routinely violates the human rights of its

citizens.

The refugee hearings were contentious and controversial, with government

lawyers

accused of lying by the Kubbys. Michele Kubby, who has no formal
training as

a lawyer,

won plaudits from attorneys for her skillful attacks on the government’s

attempts to

send her and her family back to the United States, and for her spirited

defense of the

Kubbys’ right to stay in Canada.

The Kubbys expected to know by October if they had won official refugee

status, but

events in California changed the decision date, when outgoing California

Governor Gray

Davis signed the aptly-named Senate Bill 420 (SB420) put forward by

California

legislator John Vasconcellos.

The legislation purported to clear up problems associated with the
state’s

landmark

Prop. 215 medical marijuana law, written by activists like Dennis Peron
and

passed by

voters in 1996. SB 420 set up an identity card system and a six plant
legal

minimum for

qualified medpot patients, but Kubby says SB420 is a clever attempt to
patch

over

problems caused by police, prosecutor and federal disdain for Prop. 215.

Canadian government lawyers argued that the passage of SB 420 meant that

Kubby was

guaranteed the right to medpot while in jail or on probation, and that

therefore his

claim that he would die if sent back to face punishment in California
was no

longer

relevant.

Kubby argues that the actual language of SB420 only says that medpot
patients

may ask

that they can use marijuana as defendants, probationers, or prisoners,
but

that their

requests can be turned down.

“There are no guarantees that I would be allowed to use the medicine
that

saves my

life,” Kubby says. “Nor does SB 420 prevent the feds from coming in to
attack

me and

other patients, as they have already done. It’s a sham.”

The Kubby saga will soon be documented in a book about the family,
called

“Reefer

Refugee.”

As the Kubbys await the immigration ruling, which is expected to be
announced

in the

next two weeks, they are busy with cultivation projects and media work.
Kubby

has made

an instructional interactive medpot grow CD, and is soon to release a
DVD

version of

it.

The Kubbys are also preparing to make a professional series of
television

shows that

will be aired by Advanced Nutrients. These shows will focus on marijuana

cultivation,

medical marijuana, marijuana news, and politics. Kubby says his
cultivation

show will

feature grow room footage, as well as specialty information about seed

breeding,

nutrients, grow room construction and design, and marijuana research.

“I’m blessed with a great wife, two fantastic kids, the support of
Advanced

Nutrients,

and medical marijuana, which keeps me alive,” Kubby said. “As long as
I’m

breathing,

I’m going to keep growing marijuana, and showing other people how to
grow

it.”

Note: Courageous couple grow medical marijuana on television.

For more information: http://www.kubby.org

URL: http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3178.html

Kubbys Await Refugee Ruling

http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread17775.shtml

Newshawk: E_Johnson

Source: Cannabis Culture

Author: Pete Brady

Published: November 10, 2003

Contact: ccmag@cannabisculture.com

Website: http://www.cannabisculture.com/

Related Articles & Web Site:

Pot TV News

http://www.pot-tv.net

The Kubby Files

http://www.kubby.org

Refugee Hearing for Pot Advocate

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread15906.shtml

The Drug War Refugees

http://freedomtoexhale.com/smk.htm

Medical Marijuana User Claims Persecution

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread15907.shtml

Pair Claims Win in Pot Case Mistrial

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread8095.shtml

CannabisNews Articles – Steve Kubby

http://cannabisnews.com/thcgi/search.pl?K=steve+kubby

**********************************************

The Drugsense Chat With Steve And Michele Kubby, which includes an
action

alert where

Michele requests assistance for her husband, who is facing prision,
which

would kill

him within days

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01.n1337.a03.html

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001

From: Richard Lake rlake@mapinc.org

Subject: Steve Kubby ordered jailed! More tonight in the DrugSense Chat

On Tuesday, July 17, the New York Times Drug Policy forum hosted medical

marijuana

activists Steve and Michele Kubby.  They were instrumental in passing
the

medical

marijuana initiative in California, Prop.  215.  His activism on the
behalf

of medical

marijuana patients, including a run for Governor, led directly to law

enforcement

raiding their home, and nearly causing Steve to die in a county jail.
The

rest of this

amazing story is on their website at http://www.kubby.com During this
forum

Michele

Kubby announces that she will run for Lt. Governor in 2002 Transcript

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1300/a09.html

Understanding The Cultural War Against Medical Marijuana

by Steve & Michele Kubby

http://www.marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=481

Prosecutor Demands That Kubby Be Jailed to Die Without Medical
Marijuana;

Judge Agrees,

But Jailer Refuses to Commit Murder. Just When You Thought They Couldn’t
Get

Any

Crazier…

http://marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=439

Lies Have Consequences. From Prohibitionist Venom to the Harsh Realities
of

Life and

Death for Patients. Swedish Prohibitionists, Canadian Bureaucracy and
DEAland

Medical

Murder.

http://marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=478

Kubby Refuses to Agree to Terms of Probation. Denying the Punishment
Culture

the

Consent of the Victim.

http://marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=423

Michele Kubby: Never give up! Never surrender!!

http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/libe134-20010813-01.html#letter1

Science And The End Of Marijuana Prohibition By Jon Gettman

http://makeashorterlink.com/?W22832286

Jon Gettman to Steve Kubby

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D23832286

Patient Touts Anti-Cancer Properties of Marijuana

http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread17719.shtml

Pot Shrinks Tumors – Government Knew in ’74:

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread9211.shtml

Spain: Cannabis Destroys Brain Tumours

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n296/a03.html?1983

Spain: Dope Ingredient May Fight Cancer

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n296/a01.html?1983

Investigate Cancer-Fighting Properties Of Pot

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1215/a03.html?1979

Marijuana” Can prevent Cancer

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I5D821286

UK Medicinal Cannabis Project

Welcome

High Hopes for Cannabis Medicine in Britain

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread14345.shtml

Cannabis Kills Pain in Medical Trials

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread14299.shtml

Medical Marijuana User Claims Persecution in US

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread15907.shtml

US Prosecutes Cancer Patient Over Marijuana

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P1EB65A16

Steve & Michelle Kubby

http://www.cannabisculture.com/cgi/article.cgi?num=1682

American Medical Marijuana Association Opposes SB420

http://www.marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=712

For information on future guests see

http://www.cultural-baggage.com/schedule.htm

The dope on the mayor’s race – Candidates all `experimented’ in younger
days:

http://www.friendlystranger.com/info/recreational_03/mayor.htm

The Kubby Family

http://boards.marihemp.com/boards/culture/media/4/4593.gif

=====

Safe Sacramental Cannabis, Food, Fuel, Fiber, FARM-aceuticals

Hardrug, Booze & Petro-Chem Alternative

Eliminated by Legislation and Administrated Education Depravation!

Welcome

http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/ddc/index.html

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] CBS news L.A. ibo piece
Date: November 14, 2003 at 5:13:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The Los Angeles CBS affiliate will be airing a piece on ibogaine Monday at 11 PM.

Ibogaine makes sweeps week!

_________________________________________________________________
Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.  https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] thank you
Date: November 13, 2003 at 2:50:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m glad for you ! ūüėČ Take good care.
Martine
—– Original Message —–
From: Justin Thyme
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:31 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] thank you

i took ibogaine 1 month ago, it was an amazing experience. i’m feeling stronger everyday. it feeeeeeels so good to be alive again after almost 10 grueling years as a junkie. thank you, everyone, everything. thank you so much.

justin thyme

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Medical marijuana advocates
Date: November 13, 2003 at 2:15:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ORIGINAL POST FOLLOWS
**************************

Medical marijuana advocates Michele and Steve Kubby are anticipating a ruling

“any day

now” on their historic bid to become Canada’s first officially-sanctioned

reefer

refugees.

The Kubbys fled to Canada from California three years ago, after Steve was

found guilty

of minor drug law violations and was told that he would not be able to use

life-saving

medical marijuana after his conviction.

Steve Kubby suffers from a rare form of cancer, and has long argued that

marijuana is

the only reason that the cancer has not killed him. A recent article in the

prestigious

journal “Nature” agreed with Kubby, stating that marijuana killed cancer

tumors by

cutting off their blood supply.

The Kubbys worked for Marc Emery’s Pot-TV network when they first arrive in

Canada,

anchoring the popular Pot-TV News. Steve Kubby also received a coveted Health

Canada

medical marijuana possession and grow license. He grows dozens of marijuana

plants in a

high-tech grow room provided to him by Canadian marijuana products company

Advanced

Nutrients, which conducts pharmaceutical, genetic, and plant physiology

research on the

crops grown by Kubby.

Earlier this year, Michele Kubby acted as her own lawyer in hearings before

an

immigration judge. The Kubbys are seeking official refugee status. They argue

that

Steve would die in America if he was sent back to face incarceration or other

actions

relating to his earlier conviction, because authorities will not guarantee

him access

to medpot. They also claim they would be victims of political persecution as

individuals, and as part of a persecuted minority – pot smokers – who are

targets of a

“genocidal” US-government war. If the Kubbys win refugee status, it will be

historic,

because the ruling will in effect mean that the Canadian government has

acknowledged

that the US is a country that routinely violates the human rights of its

citizens.

The refugee hearings were contentious and controversial, with government

lawyers

accused of lying by the Kubbys. Michele Kubby, who has no formal training as

a lawyer,

won plaudits from attorneys for her skillful attacks on the government’s

attempts to

send her and her family back to the United States, and for her spirited

defense of the

Kubbys’ right to stay in Canada.

The Kubbys expected to know by October if they had won official refugee

status, but

events in California changed the decision date, when outgoing California

Governor Gray

Davis signed the aptly-named Senate Bill 420 (SB420) put forward by

California

legislator John Vasconcellos.

The legislation purported to clear up problems associated with the state’s

landmark

Prop. 215 medical marijuana law, written by activists like Dennis Peron and

passed by

voters in 1996. SB 420 set up an identity card system and a six plant legal

minimum for

qualified medpot patients, but Kubby says SB420 is a clever attempt to patch

over

problems caused by police, prosecutor and federal disdain for Prop. 215.

Canadian government lawyers argued that the passage of SB 420 meant that

Kubby was

guaranteed the right to medpot while in jail or on probation, and that

therefore his

claim that he would die if sent back to face punishment in California was no

longer

relevant.

Kubby argues that the actual language of SB420 only says that medpot patients

may ask

that they can use marijuana as defendants, probationers, or prisoners, but

that their

requests can be turned down.

“There are no guarantees that I would be allowed to use the medicine that

saves my

life,” Kubby says. “Nor does SB 420 prevent the feds from coming in to attack

me and

other patients, as they have already done. It’s a sham.”

The Kubby saga will soon be documented in a book about the family, called

“Reefer

Refugee.”

As the Kubbys await the immigration ruling, which is expected to be announced

in the

next two weeks, they are busy with cultivation projects and media work. Kubby

has made

an instructional interactive medpot grow CD, and is soon to release a DVD

version of

it.

The Kubbys are also preparing to make a professional series of television

shows that

will be aired by Advanced Nutrients. These shows will focus on marijuana

cultivation,

medical marijuana, marijuana news, and politics. Kubby says his cultivation

show will

feature grow room footage, as well as specialty information about seed

breeding,

nutrients, grow room construction and design, and marijuana research.

“I’m blessed with a great wife, two fantastic kids, the support of Advanced

Nutrients,

and medical marijuana, which keeps me alive,” Kubby said. “As long as I’m

breathing,

I’m going to keep growing marijuana, and showing other people how to grow

it.”

Note: Courageous couple grow medical marijuana on television.

For more information: http://www.kubby.org

URL: http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3178.html

Kubbys Await Refugee Ruling

http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread17775.shtml

Newshawk: E_Johnson

Source: Cannabis Culture

Author: Pete Brady

Published: November 10, 2003

Contact: ccmag@cannabisculture.com

Website: http://www.cannabisculture.com/

Related Articles & Web Site:

Pot TV News

http://www.pot-tv.net

The Kubby Files

http://www.kubby.org

Refugee Hearing for Pot Advocate

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread15906.shtml

The Drug War Refugees

http://freedomtoexhale.com/smk.htm

Medical Marijuana User Claims Persecution

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread15907.shtml

Pair Claims Win in Pot Case Mistrial

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread8095.shtml

CannabisNews Articles – Steve Kubby

http://cannabisnews.com/thcgi/search.pl?K=steve+kubby

**********************************************

The Drugsense Chat With Steve And Michele Kubby, which includes an action

alert where

Michele requests assistance for her husband, who is facing prision, which

would kill

him within days

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01.n1337.a03.html

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001

From: Richard Lake rlake@mapinc.org

Subject: Steve Kubby ordered jailed! More tonight in the DrugSense Chat

On Tuesday, July 17, the New York Times Drug Policy forum hosted medical

marijuana

activists Steve and Michele Kubby.  They were instrumental in passing the

medical

marijuana initiative in California, Prop.  215.  His activism on the behalf

of medical

marijuana patients, including a run for Governor, led directly to law

enforcement

raiding their home, and nearly causing Steve to die in a county jail.  The

rest of this

amazing story is on their website at http://www.kubby.com During this forum

Michele

Kubby announces that she will run for Lt. Governor in 2002 Transcript

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1300/a09.html

Understanding The Cultural War Against Medical Marijuana

by Steve & Michele Kubby

http://www.marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=481

Prosecutor Demands That Kubby Be Jailed to Die Without Medical Marijuana;

Judge Agrees,

But Jailer Refuses to Commit Murder. Just When You Thought They Couldn’t Get

Any

Crazier…

http://marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=439

Lies Have Consequences. From Prohibitionist Venom to the Harsh Realities of

Life and

Death for Patients. Swedish Prohibitionists, Canadian Bureaucracy and DEAland

Medical

Murder.

http://marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=478

Kubby Refuses to Agree to Terms of Probation. Denying the Punishment Culture

the

Consent of the Victim.

http://marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=423

Michele Kubby: Never give up! Never surrender!!

http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/libe134-20010813-01.html#letter1

Science And The End Of Marijuana Prohibition By Jon Gettman

http://makeashorterlink.com/?W22832286

Jon Gettman to Steve Kubby

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D23832286

Patient Touts Anti-Cancer Properties of Marijuana

http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread17719.shtml

Pot Shrinks Tumors – Government Knew in ’74:

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread9211.shtml

Spain: Cannabis Destroys Brain Tumours

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n296/a03.html?1983

Spain: Dope Ingredient May Fight Cancer

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n296/a01.html?1983

Investigate Cancer-Fighting Properties Of Pot

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1215/a03.html?1979

Marijuana” Can prevent Cancer

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I5D821286

UK Medicinal Cannabis Project

Welcome

High Hopes for Cannabis Medicine in Britain

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread14345.shtml

Cannabis Kills Pain in Medical Trials

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread14299.shtml

Medical Marijuana User Claims Persecution in US

http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread15907.shtml

US Prosecutes Cancer Patient Over Marijuana

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P1EB65A16

Steve & Michelle Kubby

http://www.cannabisculture.com/cgi/article.cgi?num=1682

American Medical Marijuana Association Opposes SB420

http://www.marijuananews.com/news.php3?sid=712

For information on future guests see

http://www.cultural-baggage.com/schedule.htm

The dope on the mayor’s race – Candidates all `experimented’ in younger days:

http://www.friendlystranger.com/info/recreational_03/mayor.htm

The Kubby Family

http://boards.marihemp.com/boards/culture/media/4/4593.gif

=====

Safe Sacramental Cannabis, Food, Fuel, Fiber, FARM-aceuticals

Hardrug, Booze & Petro-Chem Alternative

Eliminated by Legislation and Administrated Education Depravation!

Welcome

http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/ddc/index.html

From: “Justin Thyme” <ibogaine@homosapiens.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] thank you
Date: November 13, 2003 at 2:31:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i took ibogaine 1 month ago, it was an amazing experience. i’m feeling stronger everyday. it feeeeeeels so good to be alive again after almost 10 grueling years as a junkie. thank you, everyone, everything. thank you so much.

justin thyme

From: “Justin Thyme” <ibogaine@homosapiens.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] excuse me, just testing
Date: November 13, 2003 at 6:06:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] NYC iboforum
Date: November 13, 2003 at 8:24:30 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well said Callie
bf

—–Original Message—–‚Ä®From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]‚Ä®Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:16 PM‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] NYC iboforum

I would have come if it was closer to my home in Nashville!‚Ä®Is there any way some of these forum could go on the road?‚Ä®I work in the medical field and I am an addict who has other addict friends who still use and addict friends in recovery, both 12 step and methadone maintenance. I have yet to meet anyone who has ever heard of Ibogaine!‚Ä®Education of the public and professionals is what Ibogaine needs now! If more people knew about it maybe it would be considered a treatment option here in the States faster.‚Ä®‚Ä®I want to know why at an Ibogaine forum would 12 step approach be debated?‚Ä®No one approach in treatment is going to work for 100% of the addicts. 12 steps programs are great! It is a wonderful outline to use to manage yourself and your demons or ‘shortcomings’ as they say in AA. ‚Ä®Can we not all work together so to speak?‚Ä®I know that I respect counselors or therapists who are well versed in all treatment models and can help an individual discover what will be best or work for them.‚Ä®‚Ä®I note so much anger and hostility on this list at times.‚Ä®It tickles me but more than that after the humor goes away it is sad that all you intelligent people can’t accept one another and pull together for the common goal of helping addicts clean up!‚Ä®‚Ä®Loving this list though!‚Ä®Callie

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] NYC iboforum
Date: November 12, 2003 at 10:16:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would have come if it was closer to my home in Nashville!
Is there any way some of these forum could go on the road?
I work in the medical field and I am an addict who has other addict friends who still use and addict friends in recovery, both 12 step and methadone maintenance. I have yet to meet anyone who has ever heard of Ibogaine!
Education of the public and professionals is what Ibogaine needs now! If more people knew about it maybe it would be considered a treatment option here in the States faster.

I want to know why at an Ibogaine forum would 12 step approach be debated?
No one approach in treatment is going to work for 100% of the addicts. 12 steps programs are great! It is a wonderful outline to use to manage yourself and your demons or ‘shortcomings’ as they say in AA.
Can we not all work together so to speak?
I know that I respect counselors or therapists who are well versed in all treatment models and can help an individual discover what will be best or work for them.

I note so much anger and hostility on this list at times.
It tickles me but more than that after the humor goes away it is sad that all you intelligent people can’t accept one another and pull together for the common goal of helping addicts clean up!

Loving this list though!
Callie

From: Loser25tn@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] NYC iboforum
Date: November 12, 2003 at 7:20:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i wouldve come

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC iboforum
Date: November 12, 2003 at 6:15:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

gboy@hush.com wrote:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1

As advertised and as all you set it up for. When all you have time youre
not putting on a conference your doing a show and you know it. As advertised
exactly. Patrick does theater and his whole art of self destruction speech
and entheogen insanity is going to set off Pinchbeck who doesn’t know
anything about drug addiction. Every space I ever go dan is pompous and
full of himself hes used to peeps bowing down to him as the wise drug
tourist, you know you put him next to Patrick and it’s going to blow.
That’s why you do it. And both of them played it. Pinchbeck starts to
talk patrick walks off the stage and Patrick talks pinchbeck get uptight
when he talks about entheogens, now you got patric talking. ‘want to
step up to the mic daniel’ don’t think homeboy was going to kiss daniel.
Enjoyed the show love seeing great theater, no solutions, all personality
clashes. The kicker being Dhoruba Bin Wahad giving another 12 steps suck
rant. The only part you forgot was to get anyone to debate pro 12 steps.
Usually there are two sides in a debate. I’d love to see anyone pro the
12 steps debate patrick and dhoruba. patrick can givea deranged rant,
then punch him and dhoruba can shoot him and throw the body in a car.

What it is that dhoruba bin wahad has done for addiction. All I know
about him is robbing and killing drug dealers with the black panthers,
to protect the community by spending their money and selling the drugs
themselves. all they started was the whole black preying on each other
mentality that hip hop promotes today. murdering officers in uniform
then getting away with it and suing the city of ny for a million and
winning. Nice person.

Dana no need to disrespect your audience nobody in it can be any sicker
then all of you on the stage.

Great show, where do I get the video? :->
.g

my personal opinion is that the tension between the speakers provided dynamic which was critical and frankly,made the conference more interesting, also i would like to add that Rommel Washingtom spoke about the pros and cons of 12-step programs. i was paying attention.

ps i thought Dana did a great job

next time we need more promotions to addicts, im not suprised how little of them came.

respectfully yours
Maya McCarthy

From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 11, 2003 at 9:19:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But I bet it contains more TRUTH than any other review. Just hope that something is learned >from it.

As Elvis said ‚ÄúA little less conversation a little more action‚ÄĚ.

>^..^<

—–Original Message—–‚Ä®From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com] ‚Ä®Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:10 PM‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum

wow! harsh review!

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 11, 2003 at 8:10:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wow! harsh review!

From: <gboy@hush.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 11, 2003 at 2:52:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1

As advertised and as all you set it up for. When all you have time youre
not putting on a conference your doing a show and you know it. As advertised
exactly. Patrick does theater and his whole art of self destruction speech
and entheogen insanity is going to set off Pinchbeck who doesn’t know
anything about drug addiction. Every space I ever go dan is pompous and
full of himself hes used to peeps bowing down to him as the wise drug
tourist, you know you put him next to Patrick and it’s going to blow.
That’s why you do it. And both of them played it. Pinchbeck starts to
talk patrick walks off the stage and Patrick talks pinchbeck get uptight
when he talks about entheogens, now you got patric talking. ‘want to
step up to the mic daniel’ don’t think homeboy was going to kiss daniel.
Enjoyed the show love seeing great theater, no solutions, all personality
clashes. The kicker being Dhoruba Bin Wahad giving another 12 steps suck
rant. The only part you forgot was to get anyone to debate pro 12 steps.
Usually there are two sides in a debate. I’d love to see anyone pro the
12 steps debate patrick and dhoruba. patrick can givea deranged rant,
then punch him and dhoruba can shoot him and throw the body in a car.

What it is that dhoruba bin wahad has done for addiction. All I know
about him is robbing and killing drug dealers with the black panthers,
to protect the community by spending their money and selling the drugs
themselves. all they started was the whole black preying on each other
mentality that hip hop promotes today. murdering officers in uniform
then getting away with it and suing the city of ny for a million and
winning. Nice person.

Dana no need to disrespect your audience nobody in it can be any sicker
then all of you on the stage.

Great show, where do I get the video? :->

.g

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:45:28 -0800 Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
wrote:
Was this posted to this list?

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/healthmindandbody/story/0,
6000,1045038,00.html

I seem to remember some one saying that it was an imporved version
of
the piece from the LA Weekly. Pinchbeck was at our forum on
Sunday–which went really well, about 40 participants taking in
an
expanded 5 hour versionof the panel at the DPA conf, which was kind

of rushed.

This was much better, amd as advertized there was debate in the
first
workshop–or at least a personality clash between Pincbeck and
Patrick. The best thing was when the youngest garbagehead present

averred that he would like to do ibogaine, of course–but that it

made sense to focus on the anti-addictive properties at present.

Sandra from Iboga Therapy House was there, along with Narda, Romell

and Jeff Gardiere, the radio host. But the first panel focused less

on the question of resistance to Ibogaine due to the abstinence-based

orientation of America at large, and more with what Ibogaine IS.

The second panel, with Dr. Ken, Howard, Boaz, Dhoruba and Dimitri

from Detroit dealt more with getting it to be  accessible to people

who find Vancouver to be to much of a Schlep. But ongoing
conversations made it clear that opening up in Windsor and Montreal

may be more complicated it seemed at first blush.

The forum would be a good model for events in other Northeastern

cities, though.

Dana/cnw
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From: admin@ethnogarden.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 10, 2003 at 7:03:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just a breif note,
We deal with shops in Windsor, Montreal and Toronto who are more then happy to receive orders for our customers for a small fee. Thus making it more accessible to those in need.
Our new freebase extract and hcl are in the final stages of completion and will be released once a second analysis and certificate of analysis are provided. Time frame 1-2 weeks. likewise we have high quality root bark ranging in alkaloid content from 3-6% which will also be posted and available by this Friday.
Howard and Brett please contact us as previously mentioned.
Ciao

—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: 10 Nov 03, 3:45 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Was this posted to this list?

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/healthmindandbody/story/0,6000,1045038,00.html

I seem to remember some one saying that it was an imporved version of the piece from the LA Weekly. Pinchbeck was at our forum on Sunday–which went really well, about 40 participants taking in an expanded 5 hour versionof the panel at the DPA conf, which was kind of rushed.

This was much better, amd as advertized there was debate in the first workshop–or at least a personality clash between Pincbeck and Patrick. The best thing was when the youngest garbagehead present averred that he would like to do ibogaine, of course–but that it made sense to focus on the anti-addictive properties at present.

Sandra from Iboga Therapy House was there, along with Narda, Romell and Jeff Gardiere, the radio host. But the first panel focused less on the question of resistance to Ibogaine due to the abstinence-based orientation of America at large, and more with what Ibogaine IS.

The second panel, with Dr. Ken, Howard, Boaz, Dhoruba and Dimitri from Detroit dealt more with getting it to be  accessible to people who find Vancouver to be to much of a Schlep. But ongoing conversations made it clear that opening up in Windsor and Montreal may be more complicated it seemed at first blush.

The forum would be a good model for events in other Northeastern cities, though.

Dana/cnw

Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
admin@ethnogarden.com
www.ethnogarden.com
TEL:(01) 705-735-0540
FAX:(01)705-735-4332

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 10, 2003 at 7:34:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 11/10/03 11:48:43 PM, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

The best thing was when the youngest garbagehead present
averred that he would like to do ibogaine, of course–but that it
made sense to focus on the anti-addictive properties at present.

Dana,

I don’t understand why you call that pleasant young man a “garbagehead”? ¬†All
he did was state he felt work should be prioritized towards ibogaine’s
antiaddictive effects.

On all other issues the Ibogaine Forum was well done.  Very glad to have an
extended version of our short meeting at the DPA and the opportunity to view
Dr. Kenneth Alper’s slide presentation.

Howard

Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
dir tel 718 442-2754
dir fax 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Guardian article, NYC Ibogaine forum
Date: November 10, 2003 at 6:45:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Was this posted to this list?

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/healthmindandbody/story/0,6000,1045038,00.html

I seem to remember some one saying that it was an imporved version of the piece from the LA Weekly. Pinchbeck was at our forum on Sunday–which went really well, about 40 participants taking in an expanded 5 hour versionof the panel at the DPA conf, which was kind of rushed.

This was much better, amd as advertized there was debate in the first workshop–or at least a personality clash between Pincbeck and Patrick. The best thing was when the youngest garbagehead present averred that he would like to do ibogaine, of course–but that it made sense to focus on the anti-addictive properties at present.

Sandra from Iboga Therapy House was there, along with Narda, Romell and Jeff Gardiere, the radio host. But the first panel focused less on the question of resistance to Ibogaine due to the abstinence-based orientation of America at large, and more with what Ibogaine IS.

The second panel, with Dr. Ken, Howard, Boaz, Dhoruba and Dimitri from Detroit dealt more with getting it to be  accessible to people who find Vancouver to be to much of a Schlep. But ongoing conversations made it clear that opening up in Windsor and Montreal may be more complicated it seemed at first blush.

The forum would be a good model for events in other Northeastern cities, though.

Dana/cnw

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] MAPLE LEAF MENACE
Date: November 10, 2003 at 11:40:30 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
This article is remarkably similar to the one I put up at DrugWar.com
for some reason.
;l-o)))
Peace,
Preston

http://www.hightimes.com/htsite/news/content.php?page=news_03103032&tpage=1

MAPLE LEAF MENACE
US and Canadian Officials Trade Barbs on Pot
Story by Preston Peet

After a peaceful summer of legalized pot smoking, on October 7, 2003, the
Ontario Appeals Court re-criminalized personal possession of marijuana. The
battle for recreational use continues with an upcoming “decrim” bill, C-38,
that is set to replace criminal sanctions for personal consumption with a
small fine.

Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien jokingly told reporters from the
Winnipeg Free Press on October 3 that although he hasn’t ever tried
marijuana, after he retires he might “try it when it will no longer be
criminal. I will have my money for my fine and a joint in the other hand.”

US Drug Czar John Walters said, “Canadians are ashamed” of their Prime
Minister and his government’s attitude towards marijuana.

Tim Meehan, Communications Director of Ontario Consumers for Safe Access to
Recreational Cannabis (OCSARC) told HT, “John Walters’ comments are seen in
Canada, like most foreign policy opinions coming from the Bush
Administration lately, as a product of arrogant self-delusion rather than
fact.”

Walters recently threatened in an interview with the Boston Globe that if
Canada moves towards more liberalized marijuana policies, the repercussions
will be felt in tightened, possibly even “semi-militarized” borders in
similar fashion to the current border control with Mexico.

Asa Hutchinson, former head of DEA and now senior official with the Office
of Homeland Security, has said that Canada would have to “face consequences”
were they to continue towards marijuana reform.

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@call south.net.nz>
Subject: [ibogaine] New e-mail address
Date: November 9, 2003 at 3:38:36 AM EST
To: <zaynebro@hotmail.com>, <news@tsbc.co.nz>, <WadeBeach@comcast.net>, <wewill@paradise.net.nz>, <littlemissmush@hotmail.com>, <michele.leeming@canterbury.ac.nz>, <kanadale@xtra.co.nz>, <feedback@fiberia.com>, <ElizabethAlice@msn.com>, <tkgb69r@hotmail.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <h.stevens@paradise.net.nz>, <paco@frankjanca.com>, <james@NextStepBS.co.nz>, “Alan Kerr” <southernlightsphotography@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi.   We have changed our e-mail and the new address is paradisepaint@callsouth.co.nz.
If anyone had trouble contacted us, Many appologies.  Everything should be up & running OK now.  Regards  Allison Senepart / Wayne Duckmanton

____________________________________________________
IncrediMail – Email has finally evolved – Click Here

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Other traditional enthogens?
Date: November 8, 2003 at 5:24:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 7/11/03 3:21 pm, GanjaCat at ganjacat@ganjacat.net wrote:

Hello there.

I have heard about these plants. If you read the more ethnobotanical literature on iboga these are often mentioned. See Giorgio Samorinis work…which is excellent.

Alan is particularly interesting!

Someone on an ‚Äėenthogen forum‚Äô I frequent posted this question, has anyone ever heard of / used these plants???

GeeCee

————————————————————————

Was browsing an old copy of Flesh of the Gods published in 1972 that my college library suprisingly had on the shelves and it had a section in it on iboga. It said, and I quote a chapter section:

The Narcotics Involved

There are four narcotics with hallucinogenic properties that are in use among the Fang and that enter into cult rituals:

T. iboga-eboka
Alchornea floribunda-alan (pl.malan)
Elaeophorbia drupifera-ayan beyem
Cannabis sativa-yama (beyama

All these plants have had important ritual uses, but by far the most important at the present time is T. iboga.

Alan(malan). The root of this bush, ground up, powdered, and dried, is consumed by those being initiated into the ancestral cult, Bieri. The object is to “break open the heat” (akwia nlo). Consumed in sufficient quantity, alan produces collapse and a vertiginous sense of excursion interpreted as passing over to the land of the ancestors. Initiates consume large quantities of this drug while siting in the village courtyard under the morning and midday sun. No doubt the effect of the sun is also important in their vertigo. The pattern of ingestion of this drug is followed in Bwiti. But the general opinion of Fang Bwiti is that malan has less power than eboka. Cults in southern Gabon which practice a version of Bwiti are known to mix malan with eboka.

Ayan beyem. Elaeophorbia drupifera has a number of uses in equatorial pharmacopoeia. The latex, typical of the euphorbiae, is mixed with oil to form eyedrops. It was employed in the ancestral cult among the Fang when the ingestion of malan was slow in showing effect. A parrot’s red tail feather dipped in the mixture was brushed acroll the eyeballs. The latex appears to affect the optical nerves, producing bizarre visual states and a generally daxed feeling. It is said that the latex was applied to the eyes of slaves and prisoners in the old days to baffle their sight, to daxe them, and to make them quiescent.

Yama. Hemp, also called knot alok (dry herb), is smoked in some branches of Bwiti after the ingestion of two or three teaspoons of eboka. The smoke is symbolic of the soul’s leaving the body and wending it’s way to mix with the ancestors at the roof of the chapel. But in most branches cannabis is rejected as a foriegn plant, distracting the members’ attention from ritual matters. In fact, hemp has long been smoked on the coast, and missionaries and admins developed an antagonism to it very early in the colonial enterprise. Cannabis tends to be nore widely used in s. Gabon; there the plant pollen is eaten, which is more potent than smoking the leaves.

…. the plant pollen. Ha!

….. did you dig the sub-chapter title…. the Narcotics involved.

….. of course this book also labled the peruvian torch’s used in peru, san pedros and cereus’s instead of trichocereus, but I was just curious if anybody had heard anything about those other two plants supposedly used by the Bwiti’s… mentioned via this book.

From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] gagging on ibo – thanx….. I AM So sorry, i’ve been added to
Date: November 7, 2003 at 8:35:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

UR mailing list for some inexplic reason, U don’t have to trust me, but i have been told that my BARK is worse than my bite and I only came uP on La Mission(PUNCTUATION XCLuDed. i AM Not a stooopid girlee thang, so please X’cuse but I am on Da list and ifg U think my ‘ren======ts R spying well they prO bably R so I will change my password.
<     thanks                    !   >

From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] gagging on ibo – thanks
Date: November 7, 2003 at 4:33:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hey thanks Chris, I’ll try it and thank-you Curtis for bringing that Hotmail bug¬†to my attention- it also appears as though an earlier attempt to post suddenly went thru- about a day later- so sorry about that..

here goes nothing and catch you all on the other side ūüėČ

Adam

From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] gagging on ibo
Date: November 6, 2003 at 9:30:11 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hiya all,

I recently obtained some rootbark and while I asked this on the calyx list a while ago, I’m going to ask again; anyone out there with a good recepy for ibo..? I tried about half a teaspoon of it, it’s tough as nails and I smashed it up and all, but it felt like shards of glass going down… So another question is, any chance that soaking it in water for 2-3 hours prior to taking it could be a bad idea…? I’m pretty sure that water won’t ruin it, but no harm in asking….

Grinding the root or the bark into powder is not a good idea- it coats the mouth and throat and can drive you nuts in that respect- but then again, that’s the fresh stuff we’re talking about….

Also, does anyone know anything about the brew used by the Bwiti, they call it ‘automatique’ – I’d like to try and brew some up, so any guidelines, as for brewing time, ratio, anything really, would be greatly appreciated…

I can say this about the rootbark- it’s nothing like what I had in Africa, which really is great news. You can chew on it for a while and nothing, it’s like chewing on wood. But then a friend of mine wanted to to taste it and he kept chewing this little piece, about the size of a chicklet, and after five minutes at it, it did go nasty on him and an hour later he was still trying to wash away the bitterness…. I believe that what I had in africa was rather fresh and I also know that they add some of the leaves to the mix, so it’s hard to tell what exactly was so aweful about it- the leafage or the fresh root or the combination, but this dry rootbark is a walk in the park… I’ll be posting more once I take a full dose…
Btw, about that half teaspoon I took, well, as expected I didn’t feel a thing, except that 2 days later a couple/friends of mine show up with a homegrown bud and next thing I know, the iboga kicked in. It was as though I could pick up on it because of the weed but it was also surprisingly strong, like my eyesight improved drastically, I felt this clearness in thought and in emotion, and besides this one moment where I was apprehensive as to how far this would go, everything was more than fine. — I’m not advocating combining the two, in fact, I had a horrible brain-like seizure 2-3 years ago (see?) this was a day after taking a small dose of indra (no puking, apparently laughed a lot) and about 2 minutes after lighting up a joint- I’m serious here, it was like a cold sizzling scan-like effect that started around my forehead and worked it’s way towards the back, lasting maybe 30 seconds or so, and when it was over I was dead sober and I swear I felt chided by iboga- so you won’t catch me doing that again….

cheers,
Adam

From: <crownofthorns@hushmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] gagging on ibo – 3rd attempt to post
Date: November 7, 2003 at 2:28:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Fwiw to add to adam’s message, I have two friends on hotmail who read
the ibogaine list, hotmail is blocking mindvox. There is no problem getting
email from mindvox but it won’t send into mindvox from hotmail. This
is strange bro because when they ban a site they ban incoming mail. Hotmail
did the reverse. Its a glitch in someone’s setup and it’s only hotmail.

Fwiw I am very happy with hush if anyone is looking for a better mailbox.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 07:55:57 -0800 adam gur <adamg@013.net.il> wrote:
(I can’t seem to post to the list, not thru my hotmail account nor
thru this one- sigh)

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
https://www.hushmail.com/services.php?subloc=messenger&l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: jenkster@resonance.org
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] gagging on ibo – 3rd attempt to post
Date: November 7, 2003 at 12:47:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, adam gur wrote:

I recently obtained some rootbark and while I asked this on the calyx
list a while ago, I’m going to ask again; anyone out there with a good
recepy for ibo..? I tried about half a teaspoon of it, it’s tough as
nails and I smashed it up and all, but it felt like shards of glass
going down… So another question is, any chance that soaking it in
water for 2-3 hours prior to taking it could be a bad idea…? I’m
pretty sure that water won’t ruin it, but no harm in asking….

Here is a delightful tea recipie that I “found”:

“Put two heaping tablespoons of ground whole root of Tabernanthe iboga
into a small pot. Add 1/2 cup of water and the juice from half a lemon and
simmer for five minutes. Pour the liquid into a cup, pressing the root
remaining in the pot to remove excess fluid, and repeat the extraction
twice more using 1/4 cup of water each time and a little more lemon juice.
The tea is quite bitter.”

Yours,

Chris

From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] gagging on ibo – 3rd attempt to post
Date: November 7, 2003 at 10:55:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

(I can’t seem to post¬†to the list, not thru my hotmail account nor thru this one- sigh)

Hiya all,

I recently obtained some rootbark and while I asked this on the calyx list a while ago, I’m going to ask again; anyone out there with a good recepy for ibo..? I tried about half a teaspoon of it, it’s tough as nails and I smashed it up and all, but it felt like shards of glass going down… So another question is, any chance that soaking it in water for 2-3 hours prior to taking it could be a bad idea…? I’m pretty sure that water won’t ruin it, but no harm in asking….

Grinding the root or the bark into powder is not a good idea- it coats the mouth and throat and can drive you nuts in that respect- but then again, that’s the fresh stuff we’re talking about….

Also, does anyone know anything about the brew used by the Bwiti, they call it ‘automatique’ – I’d like to try and brew some up, so any guidelines, as for brewing time, ratio, anything really, would be greatly appreciated…

I can say this about the rootbark- it’s nothing like what I had in Africa, which really is great news. You can chew on it for a while and nothing, it’s like chewing on wood. But then a friend of mine wanted to to taste it and he kept chewing this little piece, about the size of a chicklet, and after five minutes at it, it did go nasty on him and an hour later he was still trying to wash away the bitterness…. I believe that what I had in africa was rather fresh and I also know that they add some of the leaves to the mix, so it’s hard to tell what exactly was so aweful about it- the leafage or the fresh root or the combination, but this dry rootbark is a walk in the park… I’ll be posting more once I take a full dose…
Btw, about that half teaspoon I took, well, as expected I didn’t feel a thing, except that 2 days later a couple/friends of mine show up with a homegrown bud and next thing I know, the iboga kicked in. It was as though I could pick up on it because of the weed but it was also surprisingly strong, like my eyesight improved drastically, I felt this clearness in thought and in emotion, and besides this one moment where I was apprehensive as to how far this would go, everything was more than fine. — I’m not advocating combining the two, in fact, I had a horrible brain-like seizure 2-3 years ago (see?) this was a day after taking a small dose of indra (no puking, apparently laughed a lot) and about 2 minutes after lighting up a joint- I’m serious here, it was like a cold sizzling scan-like effect that started around my forehead and worked it’s way towards the back, lasting maybe 30 seconds or so, and when it was over I was dead sober and I swear I felt chided by iboga- so you won’t catch me doing that again….

cheers,
Adam

From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Other traditional enthogens?
Date: November 7, 2003 at 10:21:45 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Someone on an ‚Äėenthogen forum‚Äô I frequent posted this question, has anyone ever heard of / used these plants???

GeeCee

————————————————————————

Was browsing an old copy of Flesh of the Gods published in 1972 that my college library suprisingly had on the shelves and it had a section in it on iboga. It said, and I quote a chapter section:‚Ä®‚Ä®The Narcotics Involved ‚Ä®‚Ä®There are four narcotics with hallucinogenic properties that are in use among the Fang and that enter into cult rituals:‚Ä®‚Ä®T. iboga-eboka‚Ä®Alchornea floribunda-alan (pl.malan)‚Ä®Elaeophorbia drupifera-ayan beyem‚Ä®Cannabis sativa-yama (beyama‚Ä®‚Ä®All these plants have had important ritual uses, but by far the most important at the present time is T. iboga.‚Ä®‚Ä®Alan(malan). The root of this bush, ground up, powdered, and dried, is consumed by those being initiated into the ancestral cult, Bieri. The object is to “break open the heat” (akwia nlo). Consumed in sufficient quantity, alan produces collapse and a vertiginous sense of excursion interpreted as passing over to the land of the ancestors. Initiates consume large quantities of this drug while siting in the village courtyard under the morning and midday sun. No doubt the effect of the sun is also important in their vertigo. The pattern of ingestion of this drug is followed in Bwiti. But the general opinion of Fang Bwiti is that malan has less power than eboka. Cults in southern Gabon which practice a version of Bwiti are known to mix malan with eboka.‚Ä®‚Ä®Ayan beyem. Elaeophorbia drupifera has a number of uses in equatorial pharmacopoeia. The latex, typical of the euphorbiae, is mixed with oil to form eyedrops. It was employed in the ancestral cult among the Fang when the ingestion of malan was slow in showing effect. A parrot’s red tail feather dipped in the mixture was brushed acroll the eyeballs. The latex appears to affect the optical nerves, producing bizarre visual states and a generally daxed feeling. It is said that the latex was applied to the eyes of slaves and prisoners in the old days to baffle their sight, to daxe them, and to make them quiescent.
Yama. Hemp, also called knot alok (dry herb), is smoked in some branches of Bwiti after the ingestion of two or three teaspoons of eboka. The smoke is symbolic of the soul’s leaving the body and wending it’s way to mix with the ancestors at the roof of the chapel. But in most branches cannabis is rejected as a foriegn plant, distracting the members’ attention from ritual matters. In fact, hemp has long been smoked on the coast, and missionaries and admins developed an antagonism to it very early in the colonial enterprise. Cannabis tends to be nore widely used in s. Gabon; there the plant pollen is eaten, which is more potent than smoking the leaves. ‚Ä®‚Ä®…. the plant pollen. Ha!‚Ä®‚Ä®….. did you dig the sub-chapter title…. the Narcotics involved.‚Ä®‚Ä®….. of course this book also labled the peruvian torch’s used in peru, san pedros and cereus’s instead of trichocereus, but I was just curious if anybody had heard anything about those other two plants supposedly used by the Bwiti’s… mentioned via this book.

From: Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] looking for experience – please
Date: November 6, 2003 at 4:32:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Of course I would love to help the best I can. Your questions make for some long answers so I will try to contact you offline.

Jaden

lisa steckler <alex05301@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Jaden – thank you for writing back – I really
appreciate it. I guess I am interested in your whole
experience. If you are not comfortable answering
these questions just answer what you feel like. I am
a recovering addict myself and had never heard of
ibogaine until recently. Are you taking it to
“inturrupt” your addiction – as they say? Does the
clinic you got treatment in take care of you in a
special way? Are there adjunct therapies/alternative
things they recommend or require to complete the
program? You say this is your fourth ibogaine
experience – is that common? Does it often take many
treatments to be effective? Can you describe the
initial reactions you have to the drug? How does the
course of the first days go? What about after that?
How long did you stay clean after each try? –
Some basic info: your drug(s) of choice? past
treatment/recovery experience? age you first started
using? Age you are now? If these questions are too
personal don’t feel like you have to answer them.
Thank you for considering helping me. -lisa

— Jaden Shaw wrote:
> Hi Lisa
> In Canada I have just had my fourth Ibogaine
> experience (three weeks) so I am still feeling some
> of the nor ibogaine effects. I could talk to you
> about my personal experience and some facts I know
> from research on the net and this list. Tell me more
> about what you hope to write if you will.
> Jaden
>
>
>
>
> lisa steckler wrote:
> Hi – I am a grad student in a psych/addiction
> program
> in New Hampshire and I have recently heard about
> ibogaine as a current (non-american) treatment
> option
> for some people. I am very interested in talking to
> people who have used this option – successfully or
> not
> – and hearing about their experiences. I would like
> to talk to or even email with questions that could
> inform my research – that I would then present to my
> class. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you
> – Lisa
>
> __________________________________
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> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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>
>
>
>
> ———————————
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>

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From: lisa steckler <alex05301@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] looking for experience – please
Date: November 6, 2003 at 2:52:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, jadensheldon@yahoo.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jaden – thank you for writing back – I really
appreciate it. I guess I am interested in your whole
experience.  If you are not comfortable answering
these questions just answer what you feel like.  I am
a recovering addict myself and had never heard of
ibogaine until recently.  Are you taking it to
“inturrupt” your addiction – as they say? ¬†Does the
clinic you got treatment in take care of you in a
special way?  Are there adjunct therapies/alternative
things they recommend or require to complete the
program? You say this is your fourth ibogaine
experience Рis that common?  Does it often take many
treatments to be effective?  Can you describe the
initial reactions you have to the drug?  How does the
course of the first days go? What about after that?
How long did you stay clean after each try? –
Some basic info: your drug(s) of choice? past
treatment/recovery experience? age you first started
using? Age you are now?  If these questions are too
personal don’t feel like you have to answer them.
Thank you for considering helping me. -lisa

— Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi Lisa
In Canada I have just had my fourth Ibogaine
experience (three weeks) so I am still feeling some
of the nor ibogaine effects. I could talk to you
about my personal experience and some facts I know
from research on the net and this list. Tell me more
about what you hope to write if you will.
Jaden

lisa steckler <alex05301@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi – I am a grad student in a psych/addiction
program
in New Hampshire and I have recently heard about
ibogaine as a current (non-american) treatment
option
for some people. I am very interested in talking to
people who have used this option – successfully or
not
– and hearing about their experiences. I would like
to talk to or even email with questions that could
inform my research – that I would then present to my
class. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you
– Lisa

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

———————————
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

__________________________________
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From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Words are not enough RE: [ibogaine] The psychic process, part two ūüėČ
Date: November 6, 2003 at 9:43:23 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello, GanjaCat, thanks for your own answer, I’m really glad to read it, I felt a bit alone with my questions¬†on the net ūüėČ

I agree that it doesn’t be easy to write down that experience and for my part, I’ve begun with notes and then I’ve create some structure with those kind of chapters : About the¬†physical sensations,¬†perceptions¬†get during Iboga’s process, about¬†understandings I got, about memories I’ve recovered, about “those places” I went to¬†during that inner journey, about the ” meetings ” I’ve made, the presents¬†that I’ve received >from those let’s¬†say Archetypes or faces of my deeper self, about the healings, about¬†the way I’m understanding the development of the process itself, today.

Right now, I did’nt get further cause I’m searching the right way to structure and present it.

I’m very interested by a part of the process on the physical plan : I’ve experimented that my eyes did move in a very fast way, and the more the process went on, the more precise informations I’ve got from those movements my eyes were doing.
I had the feeling that something was “reput in order”, as if my eyes were optical tools, I mean of course they are, but I felt something like a meticulous program that allowed me to recover very fine “reopenings” of my physical look.
Like some camera that would be readjusted >from within, automatically.
I had no control of it, could only observe it.
I’ve heard of a method used by therapists, making relationship beetwen the eyes movements and integration of informations, and thus the following healing occuring when it was about some traumatism.
I’m thinking that it may have something to do with my experience.

About the visions : They have their content, and I noticed that it changed, I’m not speaking of¬†the first¬†“pictures”, running process: I was conscious that the themes changed during the night and from the first night to the other, as if pages were turned, and different chapters of¬†the glabal healing process was approached.
I’ve experimented that the process begun concerning what I will call the vision of my left eye, I remember pictures running from left to right in front of my left eye.
The right’s eye vision was sollicited and worked further in the night : I noticed that the pictures came from left to right and a complementary¬†movement was running from right to left at the same time.

So I’m wandering wether it has something to do with the brain, the two hemispheres ? Some kind of regulation ?

At the end of the first night, I noticed with surprise that the visualisations didn’t followed the same horizontal plan, they came from above, and slipped from top to bottom in a very smooth way, I was conscious it was a new part of the experience.
The theme of those very ” deep and slow ” visualisations had nothing more to do with¬†the other kinds of visualisations.

Those are parts of my researches and questions : I’m sure that the healing process is not a hazardous one, made of “bric and broc” as we say in french.( Hazardous pieces of lot of stuff).
I’m sure that the process follows a pattern, I’m sure that this pattern can be observed, recognized, that there is something to learn from it.
People can speak of hallucinations, they maybe lack to recognize psychic abilities, I mean natural ones.
Following what I’ve heard in one documentary about The Bwitis, one Nganga spoke about 12 psychic abilities we get as human beings, 7 major ones and 5 others.
He said nothing else, but I felt he knows a lot about what interests me now : natural potentiality, nothing else than that ;-).

Thanks one more time for sharing.

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: GanjaCat
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:49 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Words are not enough RE: [ibogaine] The psychic process, part two ūüėČ

Martine,

As one who recently did the Ibo for educational / psychological reasons, my reasons for not being comfortable attempting to write about those experiences is that I feel it is impossible in the time allocable to such an endeavour to even come close to being able to describe the deep, subtle, complex and intensely personal insights gained with tools as crude and clumsy as the words of the English Language.

I have even found it extremely hard to justify my confidence in the benefits of the experience to my some-time partner of 6 years without sounding like a babbling idiot or a convert to a new cult.

I feel it, I know it, but I just can¬ít explain it in a way that doesn¬ít over-simplify and devalue the personal journey. I undertook. All I can do now is show & feel genuine and total empathy, congruence & unconditional acceptance for others choosing to make a unique ¬Ďjourney into themselves¬í in my presence.

Maybe it’s just me. But no account I’ve ever read comes close to preparing one for the impact of the Ibo.

Blessings

>^..^<
GeeCee

—–Original Message—–‚Ä®From: Martine Docin-Julien [mailto:jardin.dj@free.fr] ‚Ä®Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:29 PM‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The psychic process, part two ūüėČ

Hello, as I’ve received no answers for the actual and present¬†questions I’ve about the psychic process induced by Iboga, I guess that the persons who could answer are on holidays ūüėČ

I fully understand that the anti addiction properties of the Iboga√Įne polarize lot of attention, and expectatives, and researches, but it’s a great pity¬†to neglect the rest of the potential.

As I’ve already said, I get through the Iboga process for self development, and emotionnal healing; not to get cured from an addiction.
Thus, I’ve found almost no informations concerning the experience I’ve made and I’ve the feeling that what I call the psychic process seems underestimated.
Are the western people that ignorant of this process, the doors it’s opening in the mind, the consciousness ?

Or are those possibilities really¬†incomprehensible for the persons who haven’t made that experience ?
It may be due to an unappropriate terminoloy used to explain things : I¬†would say that in right conditions of use,¬†Iboga allows to¬†do one healing and¬†shamanic travel, and some may speak of “hallucinations, visual illusions “. I’ve often read those words.
It may sounds quite subversive to read it,¬†but yes, I think¬†that Iboga allows to open “those doors”.

I’ve read that the psychic process crossed is often compared to NDE, near death experiency, and the Bwitis say that a human being does that travel two times : once during the ritual of the initiation, and the second one,¬†when one dies.

I don’t know how many persons from that list understand french language, I give them the advice to search for the documentaries made by Jean-Claude Cheyssial and especially those ones : La nuit du Bwiti and Le souffle de la for√™t, which means, ” The night of the Bwiti” and ” The forest’s breath “.
Both are testimonies of the Iboga’s ritual in Africa :Ngangas can be heard, explaining part of their deep knowledge.

But : I’m not encouraging people to follow Iboga’s path on their own. ¬†I doesn’t be a recreational trip.
They are risks due to the absorption of Iboga, the Ngangas know about it and they are trained to accompagny that special experience and to have people come back when they notice that something is going wrong or becomes dangerous.
During the ritual, the applicant for the initiation is supervised during three nights and days by a ” father and a mother”, persons already initiated, who pay close attention to all his/her reactions of any kind.
This being said, the dosage used¬†west doesn’t include same amount of Iboga.

That’s what I wanted to share now.
One more point : I’ve received the two Cd about traditional Bwiti’s music I’ve been talking of, it’s pure pleasure.

Friendly,
Martine

From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Words are not enough RE: [ibogaine] The psychic process, part two ūüėČ
Date: November 6, 2003 at 7:49:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martine,

As one who recently did the Ibo for educational / psychological reasons, my reasons for not being comfortable attempting to write about those experiences is that I feel it is impossible in the time allocable to such an endeavour to even come close to being able to describe the deep, subtle, complex and intensely personal insights gained with tools as crude and clumsy as the words of the English Language.

I have even found it extremely hard to justify my confidence in the benefits of the experience to my some-time partner of 6 years without sounding like a babbling idiot or a convert to a new cult.

I feel it, I know it, but I just can‚Äôt explain it in a way that doesn‚Äôt over-simplify and devalue the personal journey. I undertook. All I can do now is show & feel genuine and total empathy, congruence & unconditional acceptance for others choosing to make a unique ‚Äėjourney into themselves‚Äô in my presence.

Maybe it’s just me. But no account I’ve ever read comes close to preparing one for the impact of the Ibo.

Blessings

>^..^<
GeeCee

—–Original Message—–‚Ä®From: Martine Docin-Julien [mailto:jardin.dj@free.fr] ‚Ä®Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:29 PM‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The psychic process, part two ūüėČ

Hello, as I’ve received no answers for the actual and present¬†questions I’ve about the psychic process induced by Iboga, I guess that the persons who could answer are on holidays ūüėČ

I fully understand that the anti addiction properties of the Iboga√Įne polarize lot of attention, and expectatives, and researches, but it’s a great pity¬†to neglect the rest of the potential.

As I’ve already said, I get through the Iboga process for self development, and emotionnal healing; not to get cured from an addiction.
Thus, I’ve found almost no informations concerning the experience I’ve made and I’ve the feeling that what I call the psychic process seems underestimated.
Are the western people that ignorant of this process, the doors it’s opening in the mind, the consciousness ?

Or are those possibilities really¬†incomprehensible for the persons who haven’t made that experience ?
It may be due to an unappropriate terminoloy used to explain things : I¬†would say that in right conditions of use,¬†Iboga allows to¬†do one healing and¬†shamanic travel, and some may speak of “hallucinations, visual illusions “. I’ve often read those words.
It may sounds quite subversive to read it,¬†but yes, I think¬†that Iboga allows to open “those doors”.

I’ve read that the psychic process crossed is often compared to NDE, near death experiency, and the Bwitis say that a human being does that travel two times : once during the ritual of the initiation, and the second one,¬†when one dies.

I don’t know how many persons from that list understand french language, I give them the advice to search for the documentaries made by Jean-Claude Cheyssial and especially those ones : La nuit du Bwiti and Le souffle de la for√™t, which means, ” The night of the Bwiti” and ” The forest’s breath “.
Both are testimonies of the Iboga’s ritual in Africa :Ngangas can be heard, explaining part of their deep knowledge.

But : I’m not encouraging people to follow Iboga’s path on their own. ¬†I doesn’t be a recreational trip.
They are risks due to the absorption of Iboga, the Ngangas know about it and they are trained to accompagny that special experience and to have people come back when they notice that something is going wrong or becomes dangerous.
During the ritual, the applicant for the initiation is supervised during three nights and days by a ” father and a mother”, persons already initiated, who pay close attention to all his/her reactions of any kind.
This being said, the dosage used¬†west doesn’t include same amount of Iboga.

That’s what I wanted to share now.
One more point : I’ve received the two Cd about traditional Bwiti’s music I’ve been talking of, it’s pure pleasure.

Friendly,
Martine

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The psychic process, part two ūüėČ
Date: November 6, 2003 at 6:29:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello, as I’ve received no answers for the actual and present¬†questions I’ve about the psychic process induced by Iboga, I guess that the persons who could answer are on holidays ūüėČ

I fully understand that the anti addiction properties of the Iboga√Įne polarize lot of attention, and expectatives, and researches, but it’s a great pity¬†to neglect the rest of the potential.

As I’ve already said, I get through the Iboga process for self development, and emotionnal healing; not to get cured >from an addiction.
Thus, I’ve found almost no informations concerning the experience I’ve made and I’ve the feeling that what I call the psychic process seems underestimated.
Are the western people that ignorant of this process, the doors it’s opening in the mind, the consciousness ?

Or are those possibilities really¬†incomprehensible for the persons who haven’t made that experience ?
It may be due to an unappropriate terminoloy used to explain things : I¬†would say that in right conditions of use,¬†Iboga allows to¬†do one healing and¬†shamanic travel, and some may speak of “hallucinations, visual illusions “. I’ve often read those words.
It may sounds quite subversive to read it,¬†but yes, I think¬†that Iboga allows to open “those doors”.

I’ve read that the psychic process crossed is often compared to NDE, near death experiency, and the Bwitis say that a human being does that travel two times : once during the ritual of the initiation, and the second one,¬†when one dies.

I don’t know how many persons >from that list understand french language, I give them the advice to search for the documentaries made by Jean-Claude Cheyssial and especially those ones : La nuit du Bwiti and Le souffle de la for√™t, which means, ” The night of the Bwiti” and ” The forest’s breath “.
Both are testimonies of the Iboga’s ritual in Africa :Ngangas can be heard, explaining part of their deep knowledge.

But : I’m not encouraging people to follow Iboga’s path on their own. ¬†I doesn’t be a recreational trip.
They are risks due to the absorption of Iboga, the Ngangas know about it and they are trained to accompagny that special experience and to have people come back when they notice that something is going wrong or becomes dangerous.
During the ritual, the applicant for the initiation is supervised during three nights and days by a ” father and a mother”, persons already initiated, who pay close attention to all his/her reactions of any kind.
This being said, the dosage used¬†west doesn’t include same amount of Iboga.

That’s what I wanted to share now.
One more point : I’ve received the two Cd about traditional Bwiti’s music I’ve been talking of, it’s pure pleasure.

Friendly,
Martine

From: Jaden Shaw <jadensheldon@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] looking for experience – please
Date: November 5, 2003 at 1:28:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lisa
In Canada I have just had my fourth Ibogaine experience (three weeks) so I am still feeling some of the nor ibogaine effects. I could talk to you about my personal experience and some facts I know from research on the net and this list. Tell me more about what you hope to write if you will.
Jaden

lisa steckler <alex05301@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi – I am a grad student in a psych/addiction program
in New Hampshire and I have recently heard about
ibogaine as a current (non-american) treatment option
for some people. I am very interested in talking to
people who have used this option – successfully or not
– and hearing about their experiences. I would like
to talk to or even email with questions that could
inform my research – that I would then present to my
class. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you
– Lisa

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

 

Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

From: lisa steckler <alex05301@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] looking for experience – please
Date: November 5, 2003 at 12:10:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi – I am a grad student in a psych/addiction program
in New Hampshire and I have  recently heard about
ibogaine as a current (non-american) treatment option
for some people.  I am very interested in talking to
people who have used this option – successfully or not
Рand hearing about their experiences.  I would like
to talk to or even email with questions that could
inform my research – that I would then present to my
class.  Any help would be much appreciated.  Thank you
– Lisa

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The psychic process
Date: November 5, 2003 at 8:54:29 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ok d’ac ! ūüėČ
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The psychic process

On Tuesday, 04 November 2003 1:16 AM -0700,
Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj@free.fr> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>

“Not everyone’s experience with the Bwiti has been fruitful. Some people
have
had much better experiences with “Western” modes of therapy with ibo,
and
in fact some people have had very bad experiences with the Bwiti. Of
course, it depends in each case. The Bwiti have understood the spiritual
experience involved with ibo and concentrate on that, but they also have
realized the profit potential of this substance, and are not always
fair.
Nor are all therapists. An informed decision is the best sort to make.”

Hello Joshua, (The real one ), I partly agree with what you wrote cause
I’ve read testimony of one guy who met in Africa one healer ok to
accompagny him for the Iboga’s initiation but with apparently not the
moral values expected.
As you say, some western therapists lack that kind of ethic values too.

Yeah, being a healer (of any sort) does not necessarily mean that person
will be able to heal everyone, and some “healers” do more harm than good.

But I have lived a very pleasant and unexpected experience myself, with
a
Nganga, and that’s the reason why I’ve pleasure to share it.
Have you already did it ?

No, I have to admit. But I have had a similar, and possibly equally
powerful
entheogen experience which helped me overcome my addiction. One day I do
want to try ibo/gaine to see if I can work through its spiritual template
and possibly some more of my own issues, but there is no hurry as my
addiction is not an issue at this point – it is not active, and there is
no
temptation and hasn’t been for some time. I have had an invitation from a
therapist who is willing to administer an ibo session with me, to see how
it
might affect my situation, as it is somewhat unique or at least rare. But
again, there is no hurry and no immediate need. One day I will take this
therapist up on the offer, probably within the next year or two, and will
definitely let the list know about my experiences.

– jt

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support
Date: November 5, 2003 at 8:51:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks too for your answer¬†Gary ūüėČ
Martine
—– Original Message —–
From: gary thomas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Support

Thanks for your response for advice on supporting my friend.  The co-dependency hit it right on the head,  I have been co-dependant and have also sought counseling for just that. I do compare my friend to my teenage kids and ask myself how far I would go for them.  I would probably go insane over it.  Thank you !

From: “gary thomas” <thomaspi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Support
Date: November 4, 2003 at 7:18:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for your response for advice on supporting my friend.  The co-dependency hit it right on the head,  I have been co-dependant and have also sought counseling for just that. I do compare my friend to my teenage kids and ask myself how far I would go for them.  I would probably go insane over it.  Thank you !

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The psychic process
Date: November 4, 2003 at 12:08:55 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Tuesday, 04 November 2003 1:16 AM -0700,
Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj@free.fr> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>

“Not everyone’s experience with the Bwiti has been fruitful. Some people
have
had much better experiences with “Western” modes of therapy with ibo, and
in fact some people have had very bad experiences with the Bwiti. Of
course, it depends in each case. The Bwiti have understood the spiritual
experience involved with ibo and concentrate on that, but they also have
realized the profit potential of this substance, and are not always fair.
Nor are all therapists. An informed decision is the best sort to make.”

Hello Joshua, (The real one ), I partly agree with what you wrote cause
I’ve read testimony of one guy who met in Africa one healer ok to
accompagny him for the Iboga’s initiation but with apparently not the
moral values expected.
As you say, some western therapists lack that kind of ethic values too.

Yeah, being a healer (of any sort) does not necessarily mean that person
will be able to heal everyone, and some “healers” do more harm than good.

But I have lived a very pleasant and unexpected experience myself, with a
Nganga, and that’s the reason why I’ve pleasure to share it.
Have you already did it ?

No, I have to admit. But I have had a similar, and possibly equally powerful
entheogen experience which helped me overcome my addiction. One day I do
want to try ibo/gaine to see if I can work through its spiritual template
and possibly some more of my own issues, but there is no hurry as my
addiction is not an issue at this point – it is not active, and there is no
temptation and hasn’t been for some time. I have had an invitation from a
therapist who is willing to administer an ibo session with me, to see how it
might affect my situation, as it is somewhat unique or at least rare. But
again, there is no hurry and no immediate need. One day I will take this
therapist up on the offer, probably within the next year or two, and will
definitely let the list know about my experiences.

– jt

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support for Joshua
Date: November 4, 2003 at 12:00:28 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Monday, 03 November 2003 11:40 PM -0700,
Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj@free.fr> wrote:

Joshua, I went on thinking of what you’ve explained of the choice to be
made now, both concerning you and your friend.
And it remains me of the Archetypes, psychological symbols to whom we, as
human beings, seem to identify in our psychic process.
Are you clear, I mean at ease, ok, with the reasons that made you want to
help, and maybe tried to “save ” your friend ?

Um … it’s not my situation. I was responding to someone on the list who is
trying to help a friend who is an addict. I am not trying to “save” anyone.
In fact, I’d discourage anyone from trying to do that for anyone else.

– jt

It appears to me that the Archetyp of The-One-Who-Saves, and in some way
may sacrifizes him/herself, may interest you, and as a nurse, I know a
little about that process, believe me ūüėČ
I had to make a long way in my own life to discover how much I needed to
be helped myself and a paradoxal process is that one somethimes ” Does to
others what one needs for oneself “, see what I mean ? ūüėČ

One thing more, that point of view doesn’t mean at all that one acts
without compassion and good abilities to accompagny others for a certain
amount of time, in a certain way.
It means that one day, one may be obliged to face that others don’t react
the way one would have liked them to do and, that one may have to face
painful complexity, feeling down, exhausted : Time for ourselves has come
!

If we accept it : Time to go deeper searching what was in adequation with
our naturel ressources and what was far beyond, to heavy, which are the
feelings speaking in our background, culpability may be there in
relationship with shame, feelings of unworthyness, and deep loneliness.
I don’t say that it’s your story, but for experience and trainings I’ve
made, I know that the ones we help are often like mirrors of some distress
we may have deep inside too, from our own family’s story.

See, it may appears that by helping some persons, we might be asking
unconsciously ” Tell me that I’m able to give love, and that love is safe
“. It may sound too heavy for the ones who may receive that virtual
message, cause they already have to deal with their  pain and complexity.
That’s one of ¬†the reason why therapists need to go through supervision,
to be able to part what is their bargain and what is the story of the
people they are accompagning.

That’s all ūüėČ
I hope that you and your friend will feel free to go, each on it’s own
path; has your friend already met Iboga ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support

Hello Joshua, I’m wondering if you have yourself some kind of support, I
mean for you ? To express what I can imagine of the anxiety to let one’s
friend go her own way, with maybe some complex feelings, anger or
disappointment, frustration, doubt, sadness ?

I guess such a decision is not taken easily, and you seem to have
invested lot of energy and time and hope in this relationship.
Are you prepared to cross a transition period ?
How will you help yourself in that transition ? Have you planned
something new for yourself ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support

On Sunday, 02 November 2003 5:54 PM -0700,
gary thomas <thomaspi@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

I was writing for advice from those who have experienced the power
of addiction.  For the past couple of years I have tried to help a
close friend fight her addiction of crack.  It just seems I have
tried harder than she has. ¬†I have experience the “give me one more
chance” to many times. ¬†My questions would be, ¬†when should I let
her go,  and let happen what may.  Thanks Gary

It totally depends on you. I am speaking as an addict, though I have
not used my substance of choice for quite some time and I shun
traditional treatments, though I will not tell someone with similar
problems to necessarily choose my path. Different treatments work
better for different people, and for some people there is nothing
that will help but time, if even that. The best advice in a nutshell
I could give you is don’t let yourself be manipulated, and act out of
love, even if it means that you have to sever your relationship in
order to save it (or your own sanity). But the one thing you must
remember more than anything is that you cannot decide for this person
what to do next, but you can decide what you will do next. You can
set conditions where the relationship would work for you, and if the
conditions aren’t met within an agreed timeframe, then you have every
right to let this person go – some people would say at that point you
have the responsibility to let this person go, as continuing to make
agreements which are later broken isn’t helping, and you aren’t
sticking to your word. Stick to your word, no matter how much it
hurts, because she can’t stick to her words.

Good luck. It sucks, I know, though crack is something I always
avoided, but self-destructive behavior is common to many addicts.

– jt

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] The psychic process
Date: November 4, 2003 at 4:16:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>

“Not everyone’s experience with the Bwiti has been fruitful. Some people
have
had much better experiences with “Western” modes of therapy with ibo, and in
fact some people have had very bad experiences with the Bwiti. Of course, it
depends in each case. The Bwiti have understood the spiritual experience
involved with ibo and concentrate on that, but they also have realized the
profit potential of this substance, and are not always fair. Nor are all
therapists. An informed decision is the best sort to make.”

Hello Joshua, (The real one ), I partly agree with what you wrote cause I’ve
read testimony of one guy who met in Africa one healer ok to accompagny him
for the Iboga’s initiation but with apparently not the moral values
expected.
As you say, some western therapists lack that kind of ethic values too.

But I have lived a very pleasant and unexpected experience myself, with a
Nganga, and that’s the reason why I’ve pleasure to share it.
Have you already did it ?

A question I have already put in this list is : Who knows about the psychic
process crossed during the experience with Iboga ?
I mean, does someone know about studies made on that special point, with
analyses made on the informations ” brought back ” by the experiencers ?
I would like to share what I’ve experienced and confront it with other’s
experiences.

I’m quite sure that some individual, cultural and universal pattern acts at
the background of what is experienced, and the informations I’ve found on
the net sound rather poor for the moment.

Thanks a lot !

Martine

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Gary and Joshua
Date: November 4, 2003 at 2:57:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Soooorry, I’ve misunderstood your names in my two previous messages : Gary
is Gary, Joshua is Joshua ūüėČ

Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support for Joshua

Joshua, I went on thinking of what you’ve explained of the choice to be
made
now, both concerning you and your friend.
And it remains me of the Archetypes, psychological symbols to whom we, as
human beings, seem to identify in our psychic process.
Are you clear, I mean at ease, ok, with the reasons that made you want to
help, and maybe tried to “save ” your friend ?

It appears to me that the Archetyp of The-One-Who-Saves, and in some way
may
sacrifizes him/herself, may interest you, and as a nurse, I know a little
about that process, believe me ūüėČ
I had to make a long way in my own life to discover how much I needed to
be
helped myself and a paradoxal process is that one somethimes ” Does to
others what one needs for oneself “, see what I mean ? ūüėČ

One thing more, that point of view doesn’t mean at all that one acts
without
compassion and good abilities to accompagny others for a certain amount of
time, in a certain way.
It means that one day, one may be obliged to face that others don’t react
the way one would have liked them to do and, that one may have to face
painful complexity, feeling down, exhausted : Time for ourselves has come
!

If we accept it : Time to go deeper searching what was in adequation with
our naturel ressources and what was far beyond, to heavy, which are the
feelings speaking in our background, culpability may be there in
relationship with shame, feelings of unworthyness, and deep loneliness.
I don’t say that it’s your story, but for experience and trainings I’ve
made, I know that the ones we help are often like mirrors of some distress
we may have deep inside too, from our own family’s story.

See, it may appears that by helping some persons, we might be asking
unconsciously ” Tell me that I’m able to give love, and that love is safe
“.
It may sound too heavy for the ones who may receive that virtual message,
cause they already have to deal with their  pain and complexity.
That’s one of ¬†the reason why therapists need to go through supervision,
to
be able to part what is their bargain and what is the story of the people
they are accompagning.

That’s all ūüėČ
I hope that you and your friend will feel free to go, each on it’s own
path;
has your friend already met Iboga ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support

Hello Joshua, I’m wondering if you have yourself some kind of support, I
mean for you ? To express what I can imagine of the anxiety to let one’s
friend go her own way, with maybe some complex feelings, anger or
disappointment, frustration, doubt, sadness ?

I guess such a decision is not taken easily, and you seem to have
invested
lot of energy and time and hope in this relationship.
Are you prepared to cross a transition period ?
How will you help yourself in that transition ? Have you planned
something
new for yourself ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support

On Sunday, 02 November 2003 5:54 PM -0700,
gary thomas <thomaspi@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

I was writing for advice from those who have experienced the power
of
addiction.  For the past couple of years I have tried to help a
close
friend fight her addiction of crack.  It just seems I have tried
harder
than she has. ¬†I have experience the “give me one more chance” to
many
times.  My questions would be,  when should I let her go,  and let
happen
what may.  Thanks Gary

It totally depends on you. I am speaking as an addict, though I have
not
used my substance of choice for quite some time and I shun traditional
treatments, though I will not tell someone with similar problems to
necessarily choose my path. Different treatments work better for
different
people, and for some people there is nothing that will help but time,
if
even that. The best advice in a nutshell I could give you is don’t let
yourself be manipulated, and act out of love, even if it means that
you
have
to sever your relationship in order to save it (or your own sanity).
But
the
one thing you must remember more than anything is that you cannot
decide
for
this person what to do next, but you can decide what you will do next.
You
can set conditions where the relationship would work for you, and if
the
conditions aren’t met within an agreed timeframe, then you have every
right
to let this person go – some people would say at that point you have
the
responsibility to let this person go, as continuing to make agreements
which
are later broken isn’t helping, and you aren’t sticking to your word.
Stick
to your word, no matter how much it hurts, because she can’t stick to
her
words.

Good luck. It sucks, I know, though crack is something I always
avoided,
but
self-destructive behavior is common to many addicts.

– jt

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support for Joshua
Date: November 4, 2003 at 2:40:25 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Joshua, I went on thinking of what you’ve explained of the choice to be made
now, both concerning you and your friend.
And it remains me of the Archetypes, psychological symbols to whom we, as
human beings, seem to identify in our psychic process.
Are you clear, I mean at ease, ok, with the reasons that made you want to
help, and maybe tried to “save ” your friend ?

It appears to me that the Archetyp of The-One-Who-Saves, and in some way may
sacrifizes him/herself, may interest you, and as a nurse, I know a little
about that process, believe me ūüėČ
I had to make a long way in my own life to discover how much I needed to be
helped myself and a paradoxal process is that one somethimes ” Does to
others what one needs for oneself “, see what I mean ? ūüėČ

One thing more, that point of view doesn’t mean at all that one acts without
compassion and good abilities to accompagny others for a certain amount of
time, in a certain way.
It means that one day, one may be obliged to face that others don’t react
the way one would have liked them to do and, that one may have to face
painful complexity, feeling down, exhausted : Time for ourselves has come !

If we accept it : Time to go deeper searching what was in adequation with
our naturel ressources and what was far beyond, to heavy, which are the
feelings speaking in our background, culpability may be there in
relationship with shame, feelings of unworthyness, and deep loneliness.
I don’t say that it’s your story, but for experience and trainings I’ve
made, I know that the ones we help are often like mirrors of some distress
we may have deep inside too, from our own family’s story.

See, it may appears that by helping some persons, we might be asking
unconsciously ” Tell me that I’m able to give love, and that love is safe “.
It may sound too heavy for the ones who may receive that virtual message,
cause they already have to deal with their  pain and complexity.
That’s one of ¬†the reason why therapists need to go through supervision, to
be able to part what is their bargain and what is the story of the people
they are accompagning.

That’s all ūüėČ
I hope that you and your friend will feel free to go, each on it’s own path;
has your friend already met Iboga ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support

Hello Joshua, I’m wondering if you have yourself some kind of support, I
mean for you ? To express what I can imagine of the anxiety to let one’s
friend go her own way, with maybe some complex feelings, anger or
disappointment, frustration, doubt, sadness ?

I guess such a decision is not taken easily, and you seem to have invested
lot of energy and time and hope in this relationship.
Are you prepared to cross a transition period ?
How will you help yourself in that transition ? Have you planned something
new for yourself ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support

On Sunday, 02 November 2003 5:54 PM -0700,
gary thomas <thomaspi@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

I was writing for advice from those who have experienced the power of
addiction.  For the past couple of years I have tried to help a close
friend fight her addiction of crack.  It just seems I have tried
harder
than she has. ¬†I have experience the “give me one more chance” to many
times.  My questions would be,  when should I let her go,  and let
happen
what may.  Thanks Gary

It totally depends on you. I am speaking as an addict, though I have not
used my substance of choice for quite some time and I shun traditional
treatments, though I will not tell someone with similar problems to
necessarily choose my path. Different treatments work better for
different
people, and for some people there is nothing that will help but time, if
even that. The best advice in a nutshell I could give you is don’t let
yourself be manipulated, and act out of love, even if it means that you
have
to sever your relationship in order to save it (or your own sanity). But
the
one thing you must remember more than anything is that you cannot decide
for
this person what to do next, but you can decide what you will do next.
You
can set conditions where the relationship would work for you, and if the
conditions aren’t met within an agreed timeframe, then you have every
right
to let this person go – some people would say at that point you have the
responsibility to let this person go, as continuing to make agreements
which
are later broken isn’t helping, and you aren’t sticking to your word.
Stick
to your word, no matter how much it hurts, because she can’t stick to
her
words.

Good luck. It sucks, I know, though crack is something I always avoided,
but
self-destructive behavior is common to many addicts.

– jt

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support
Date: November 3, 2003 at 6:17:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This sounds a bit harsh – I meant that such a search would probably
lead to useful resources for dealing with one’s relationship with
another person’s addiction.

If you are unfamiliar with the term ‘codependency’, now would be
a good time to search for it on the web.

Bill Ross

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support
Date: November 3, 2003 at 5:59:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

For the past couple of years I have tried to help a close
friend fight her addiction of crack.  It just seems I have
tried harder than she has. ¬†I have experience the “give me
one more chance” to many times. ¬†My questions would be,
when should I let her go,  and let happen what may.

If you are unfamiliar with the term ‘codependency’, now would be
a good time to search for it on the web.

Bill Ross

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support
Date: November 3, 2003 at 4:53:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello Joshua, I’m wondering if you have yourself some kind of support, I
mean for you ? To express what I can imagine of the anxiety to let one’s
friend go her own way, with maybe some complex feelings, anger or
disappointment, frustration, doubt, sadness ?

I guess such a decision is not taken easily, and you seem to have invested
lot of energy and time and hope in this relationship.
Are you prepared to cross a transition period ?
How will you help yourself in that transition ? Have you planned something
new for yourself ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support

On Sunday, 02 November 2003 5:54 PM -0700,
gary thomas <thomaspi@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

I was writing for advice from those who have experienced the power of
addiction.  For the past couple of years I have tried to help a close
friend fight her addiction of crack.  It just seems I have tried harder
than she has. ¬†I have experience the “give me one more chance” to many
times.  My questions would be,  when should I let her go,  and let
happen
what may.  Thanks Gary

It totally depends on you. I am speaking as an addict, though I have not
used my substance of choice for quite some time and I shun traditional
treatments, though I will not tell someone with similar problems to
necessarily choose my path. Different treatments work better for different
people, and for some people there is nothing that will help but time, if
even that. The best advice in a nutshell I could give you is don’t let
yourself be manipulated, and act out of love, even if it means that you
have
to sever your relationship in order to save it (or your own sanity). But
the
one thing you must remember more than anything is that you cannot decide
for
this person what to do next, but you can decide what you will do next. You
can set conditions where the relationship would work for you, and if the
conditions aren’t met within an agreed timeframe, then you have every
right
to let this person go – some people would say at that point you have the
responsibility to let this person go, as continuing to make agreements
which
are later broken isn’t helping, and you aren’t sticking to your word.
Stick
to your word, no matter how much it hurts, because she can’t stick to her
words.

Good luck. It sucks, I know, though crack is something I always avoided,
but
self-destructive behavior is common to many addicts.

– jt

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Support
Date: November 3, 2003 at 2:56:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sunday, 02 November 2003 5:54 PM -0700,
gary thomas <thomaspi@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

I was writing for advice from those who have experienced the power of
addiction.  For the past couple of years I have tried to help a close
friend fight her addiction of crack.  It just seems I have tried harder
than she has. ¬†I have experience the “give me one more chance” to many
times.  My questions would be,  when should I let her go,  and let happen
what may.  Thanks Gary

It totally depends on you. I am speaking as an addict, though I have not
used my substance of choice for quite some time and I shun traditional
treatments, though I will not tell someone with similar problems to
necessarily choose my path. Different treatments work better for different
people, and for some people there is nothing that will help but time, if
even that. The best advice in a nutshell I could give you is don’t let
yourself be manipulated, and act out of love, even if it means that you have
to sever your relationship in order to save it (or your own sanity). But the
one thing you must remember more than anything is that you cannot decide for
this person what to do next, but you can decide what you will do next. You
can set conditions where the relationship would work for you, and if the
conditions aren’t met within an agreed timeframe, then you have every right
to let this person go – some people would say at that point you have the
responsibility to let this person go, as continuing to make agreements which
are later broken isn’t helping, and you aren’t sticking to your word. Stick
to your word, no matter how much it hurts, because she can’t stick to her
words.

Good luck. It sucks, I know, though crack is something I always avoided, but
self-destructive behavior is common to many addicts.

– jt

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] After Ibo Advice
Date: November 3, 2003 at 3:03:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well, I’m very interested by the messages completing the discussion about
cannabis.
I notice that there are very different points of view, pros and cons as is
said in english ..
Thanks for sharing.

Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] After Ibo Advice

On Friday, 31 October 2003 6:55 AM -0700,
Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj@free.fr> wrote:

As for the young son of that friend of mine, he was no more living with
her mother but she is sure that he was ” under cannabis effect ” with
his
friends when they prepared their meeting with the dealer.
And the desinhibition due to cannabis (as for alcohol) is well known
too,
isn’t ?
If I’ve get true informations, they did’nt pretend to kill the dealer,
they wanted to impress him cause the son of my friend was caught in a
spiral of violence for weeks, with blackmail, threats, agression and so
on.
And from my point of view it’s the use of cannabis which created the
beginning of that whole sad story.

Well, think about this. Would this have happened if they were able to buy
cannabis legally? BTW, alcohol and cannabis are two entirely different
substances, and their effects are vastly different. I would go through a
whole explanation of it, but suffice it to say you need to do some more
research. In the course of this research, make sure to check the results
of
scientific studies against the methodology used, and also find out who
paid
for the study in each case.

– jt

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] After Ibo Advice
Date: November 3, 2003 at 2:29:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Friday, 31 October 2003 6:55 AM -0700,
Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj@free.fr> wrote:

As for the young son of that friend of mine, he was no more living with
her mother but she is sure that he was ” under cannabis effect ” with his
friends when they prepared their meeting with the dealer.
And the desinhibition due to cannabis (as for alcohol) is well known too,
isn’t ?
If I’ve get true informations, they did’nt pretend to kill the dealer,
they wanted to impress him cause the son of my friend was caught in a
spiral of violence for weeks, with blackmail, threats, agression and so
on.
And from my point of view it’s the use of cannabis which created the
beginning of that whole sad story.

Well, think about this. Would this have happened if they were able to buy
cannabis legally? BTW, alcohol and cannabis are two entirely different
substances, and their effects are vastly different. I would go through a
whole explanation of it, but suffice it to say you need to do some more
research. In the course of this research, make sure to check the results of
scientific studies against the methodology used, and also find out who paid
for the study in each case.

– jt

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] After Ibo Advice
Date: November 3, 2003 at 2:24:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thursday, 30 October 2003 11:55 AM -0700,
Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj@free.fr> wrote:

Hello, I am not trying to bring any kind of propaganda about cannabis and
I’ve no interest about it.
As a nurse, I simply listen to informations given and I’ve heard that
some young people taking cannabis are now received in addiction centers,
that was not the case before, as long as I know.

No, it was not, but now there is the “conventional wisdom” in many courts
that cannabis use autmatically equals abuse. This is in direct contradiction
to most addiction therapy, including the 12-step method, although people in
AA will tell you that if you abuse alcohol you cannot use any substance
which causes euphoria without destroying your life. Well, I’m here to tell
you that isn’t true, and I base that on my own experiences. The law in many
places requires that small-time offenders are sent to treatment rather than
jail, and in many cases anyone who is under age is automatically sent to
treatment. This is regardless of whether or not they need treatment. The
courts don’t really care whether or not you have an addiction in determining
if you should go to treatment, all they care about is bringing a
legally-proscribed sentence, which is automatic treatment according to the
laws in many locations. Cannabis hasn’t changed and people certainly haven’t
(and cannabis use has fluctuated but remained relatively steady for the last
few decades), but the legal system has; although it’s moving in a better
direction than jailing everyone, the assumption that anyone who uses
cannabis is addicted to it is erroneous. Cannabis “addiction,” when it
occurs and if you can really call it that, is also not nearly as serious as
many other forms of addiction. Most people actually quit on their own after
reaching a certain age, which varies but use tends to drop considerably as
age increases, statistically speaking.

I’m not a specialist in that area, but I’ve heard of the research done
about the healing properties of the cannabis and I’m quite sure that
cannabis can be used in some case by people knowing how to deal with it
for healing purpose, as for all the plants on earth.
I’m in relationship with a Bwiti Nganga and I will ask him what he thinks
of joining Iboga and cannabis.

Not everyone’s experience with the Bwiti has been fruitful. Some people have
had much better experiences with “Western” modes of therapy with ibo, and in
fact some people have had very bad experiences with the Bwiti. Of course, it
depends in each case. The Bwiti have understood the spiritual experience
involved with ibo and concentrate on that, but they also have realized the
profit potential of this substance, and are not always fair. Nor are all
therapists. An informed decision is the best sort to make.

And to close the talk about it from my point of view, I’d like to say
that the son of one of my friend is in jail for years because he decided
to punish a dealer who didn’t give him right stuff, cannabis; the dealer
died, for teenagers are in jail.
There is too much violence around it, let’s say cannabis isn’t the
solution that I would propose to someone who works to free
himself/herself from chemical addiction of any kind.

None of that would be an issue if cannabis were legal. What you describe are
situations caused by cannabis being in the black market. Cannabis does not
incite violence. Alcohol certainly can, but there is no violence associated
with its legal sale. Liquor store owners don’t shoot each other in “turf
wars.”

– jt

From: “Allison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: [ibogaine] new e-mail address
Date: November 3, 2003 at 4:35:24 AM EST
To: <zaynebro@hotmail.com>, <WadeBeach@comcast.net>, <EDWARD.DAVIES@wanadoo.fr>, <littlemissmush@hotmail.com>, <michele.leeming@canterbury.ac.nz>, <kanadale@xtra.co.nz>, <feedback@fiberia.com>, <ElizabethAlice@msn.com>, <tkgb69r@hotmail.com>, <james@nextstep.biz>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <h.stevens@paradise.net.nz>, <kiyaara@msn.com>, <paco@frankjanca.com>, <james@NextStepBS.co.nz>, “Alan Kerr” <southernlightsphotography@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Our e-mail address has changed from aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz to call south and it is now paradisepaint@callsouth.co.nz.    Regards  Allison & Wayne

____________________________________________________
IncrediMail – Email has finally evolved – Click Here

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] After Ibo Advice
Date: November 3, 2003 at 12:00:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello, I’m quite surprised that taking marijuana can
be a good idea for someone wanting and fighting to
get free from addiction ?

Anything can be good (or bad), if that is how it is
used.

I believe that would depend on the purpose and intent
of use of anything and treatment should be arrived at
by the care giver and the patient. Many people do very
well with it, some people don’t or the idea of it
bothers them, some think it is bad and others that you
shouldn’t do it either… I certainly disagree that
marijuana is any kind of “substance known to create
addiction”, I wouldn’t know how a substance could
create anything.

It is easier for me as I fully understand that there
can be safe and non-addictive use of various
substances for medicinal means – that means with true
need and respect to the substance/plant and the user.
IMPOSSIBLE! Well, no, I do it daily, I take oxycontin,
sometimes benzo’s and various other substances. ¬†So?
There were various people who said the sky would come
crashing down (still do) when they hear the meds I am
on.

“no more need for
that kind of stuff.”

That come from the assumption of some evil use. Some
people have no “problem” with a little grass (or other
medication) and are sick and are having endless days
of nausea, headaches, pain, side effects to
prescription medications…

Recovered/recovering addicts can often safely use
“that kind of stuff”, be it prescription or
non-prescription, herbal or not, legal or not
(quite/yet). We suffer from the same illnesses
everyone else gets, get the same cancers and other
intractable painful conditions. I have pain from
something called TMJ syndrome from an injury and
surgery, that I can pretty much handle the pain, the
cluster headaches along with them are another story.
Witholding “that stuff” just isn’t a help, would hurt
(me) and there isn’t the slightest sign of addiction
in sight.

FWIW I just was put on topamax – working up and I see
“something”, that and other reasons I want OFF THE OXY
NOW, I am already chomping on the bit so to speak but
need to wait till Wed of this week I think and see the
doc first. I am doing something new and different, I
am actually asking neurologists and pain specialists
for advice first, then I will do what I want. I am a
pain patient, I do NOT react to drugs for pain like an
addict – at least any longer. So, tis OK, OK?

The substance only has as much magic as you give it
and the kind of magic it has. I use oxycontin for
pain, someone else gets high on it, the intent and use
is different behind “that kind of stuff” means it is
“different kind of stuff”. IMO. Not all “that stuff”,
be it whatever, drugs/herbs, religion, sex, power,
lawyers… is bad but is often evilized.

Brettcrea
— Martine Docin-Julien <jardin.dj@free.fr> wrote:
Hello, I’m quite surprised that taking marijuana can
be a good idea for someone wanting and fighting to
get free from addiction ?
Iboga is well known for it’s ability to stop the
craving for drugs by the way Ibogańľne in working on
the cells sensitive to addiction, so I really don’t
understand how a substance known to create addiction
can be of good help ?
I think it would made me feel crazy to take
marijuana when there is in fact no more need for
that kind of stuff.

I’ve been reading a lot on the net about the way
Iboga is given in Europe and I see a really big
difference beetwen that way and the way traditional
african healers, called Ngangas, do themselves.
They are rich of thousand of years of knowledge
through their healing tradition with Iboga and know
for sure that Iboga allows a very special work on
and I’d say in the spirit, opening doors and windows
for a new consciousness through the psychic process
crossed.
I don’t get the feeling through what I’ve been
reading now, that most of the persons to which Iboga
is given, benefit from that kind of deep knwoledge
due from the people they met ? And some take it
alone at home ..

I’ve read feed-back from persons left without
understanding of this process, the different phases
of symbolic “destruction and rebuilding”, what the
Ngangas call first the death and then the birth of
the new being.

The process I’ve followed lasted two whole nights;
as I’ve already said in my previous message, I’ve
followed the process guided by a Nganga and the use
of musics and rythms is totally part of the healing
tools that the Nganga is using.
A musicotherapist who was in Africa to perform the
complete Iboga’s initiation has created a pretty
interesting website about the music used in the
ritual, and propose pieces that can be downloaded.
Here it is :

http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articletoshow=63&language=en
I’ve tested the url, it’s working.
He is making research about the effects of that very
special kind on music on the brain, mind, spirit.
I think that it’s worthwhile to get informations
from the ones who first had to deal with Iboga, and
maybe time to welcome what Africans have to bring to
western people and culture.
I’ve get the feeling they know quite a lot about
psychic life, and Iboga’s journey is a psychic trip,
spiritual one too.
Friendly,
Martine

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere – Britney Spears
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From: “gary thomas” <thomaspi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Support
Date: November 2, 2003 at 8:54:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was writing for advice from those who have experienced the power of addiction.¬† For the past couple of years I have tried to help a close friend fight her addiction of crack.¬† It just seems I have tried harder than she has.¬† I have experience the “give me one more chance” to many times.¬† My questions would be,¬† when should I let her go,¬† and let happen what may.¬† Thanks Gary

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine forum next sunday, nov. 9
Date: November 2, 2003 at 1:51:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Richard Lake <rlake@mapinc.org>, dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Special 5 hour follow-on Forum, one day after the Ibogaine workshop
at the DPA Conference in E. Rutherford

At the Unitarian Church, 40 East 30th St (between Park and Madison
Aves), 3 to 8 pm:

“Can an Entheogen be Accepted as a De-tox in a predominantly 12 Step
Environment?”

Featuring Dr. Ken Alper, Dr. Jeff Gardere, Patrick Kroupa, Howard
Lotsof, Daniel Pinchbeck, Sandra Karpetas, Narda Narvaez, Boaz
Wachtel, Dana Beal, Rommel Washington, Dimitri Mugianis and other
special guests to be announced.

A workshop of treatment providers debating entheogen enthusiasts,
followed by a political roundtable devoted to getting Ibogaine access
through the New York State Legislature.

$20 for adults, $10 for students, $5 for the very poor.

Followed by a reception and afterparty at 9 Bleecker St, with buffet
at 8:30 PM.  Open to attendees of the forum ONLY (unless you pay the
full $20).

Contact Dana at 212-677-7180/4899.  (But my email is working again
for incoming messages also.)

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: [ibogaine] Iboga’s process Elimination phase.
Date: November 2, 2003 at 6:50:25 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’d like to share something about¬†Iboga’s process cause I’ve been¬†reading on the net testimonies >from persons having taken Iboga or Iboga’s extracts.
Some explain the way they did prepare it to avoid nauseas and vomiting and I wonder what¬†explanations they’ve get when bying Iboga cause as far as I¬†know, from what I’ve heard from the Nganga, the traditional healer from Gabon, nauseas and vomiting are part of the process, completly necessary.
I can understand that the idea of those part of the process, let’s call it elimination phase, is not pleasant to face, and as myself, and as the nurse I am, it did’nt pleased me at all to imagine it before I suscribed ūüėČ

I really had to accept that I would face something I really hated, and above all, endure it in a group, not only in a bathroom, for example … And ? I did it and I’ve survived and yes some moments weren’t pleasant and I’ve been fighting against nauseas, and I did vomit.
I remind that one time, hearing a person vomiting,¬†I said speaking to that guy for myself in my head ” You, silly one, stop vomiting or you’ll make me vomit too ” and as soon as I’d thought it, I laughed inside cause I realized that contrary to what I was thinking, the guy was helping me in my own elimination process, but I went on fighting.

Things can be really well prepared to avoid too much discomfort, but some discomfort is part of the process, as far as I know.
I was told to eat and to drink¬†” light” the days before the session and I’d receive instructions to be on an empty stomach the D Day; believe me, I’ve taken this very seriously, cause of my fear of vomiting ūüėČ
Let’s say I’ve eaten two pieces of rusks for breakfast with a warm green tea and then I was on my way by train to the P Place.
The travel beetwen subway, train, bus has lasted 7 hours and when I arrived, I’d had to wait for a couple of hours more.
During that whole time, I’ve eaten and drunk nothing, but my mind was exceptionnaly busy,¬†imaginating what I would eat if it was possible, and I was fearing I would make some kind of mental indigestion !
I’d been told that we would’nt be eating during the two days and¬†¬†nights of the process and I really needed to nourish me in some way, to fight¬†some kind of anxiety too, I guess.

What I’ve learnt is that for the Bwiti, the vomiting is the elimination phase of toxins, physical and psychical ones, and that’s why vomiting must not be avoided, of course. And it’s even more useful for persons having taken drugs, pills, alcohol and so on.

Something more about the elimination process, things were very well done by the place I was, and people were there to accompagny¬†: When someone had finished to eliminate and had put the plastic bowl on¬†the floor, they came with a fresh bowl and took silently the previous one to wash it outside. Things can be simple, I’ve discovered it that night.
And to finish with it, I did’nt vomit during the¬†whole night’s process. I felt shared beetwen two feelings, one of proud, ” see I don’t need to vomit anything ” and one of doubt ” maybe the process won’t be complete if¬†I don’t vomit “, and ?
When the night’s¬†process¬†was over, we were told to go to our rooms, or have a walk, so I stood up – and I felt dizzy – and nauseas came – and I was obliged to lay down again – and I did vomit ūüėČ Only iboga’s substance, nothings more.

I’ve the feeling that as western people, we may accept new things coming to us, but we¬†someway need to change the deal, some way saying : We know ways ” They ” don’t know and after all, vomiting is so unpleasant, we may change that part of the process.
For my part, today, I prefer to follow the path, following “Their” knowledge and instructions.

And what about the people helping, their own experience of the eliminating phase, how they can endure it ?
I asked that question to one man there, he explained me it’s sometimes unconfortable, but that doesn’t last.
He¬†knows it’s an important phase of the process,¬†the symbolical “death phase”,¬†and the second night is lighter, cause it’s another phase of the process, the birth of the new being.
He went on¬†saying, ” It’s so wonderful, I’ve the feeling to be in a¬†” pouponni√®re ” (place¬†where cares are giving to newborns),¬†seeing new beings coming to life “.
Things can be thus simple.

Friendly,
Martine
From: Eaquinet@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Fwd: Democracy Now!: Michael Moore on Why Bush & Cheney Should Be Arrested
Date: November 2, 2003 at 4:41:46 AM EST
To: alpha@pioneer.net, bob@fitrakis.org, butchgiusto@knology.net, bcalabrese@yahoo.com, jhallett@dispatch.com, carlambarnes@yahoo.com, chammon@columbus.rr.com, newsletter@cpanews.org, csinoregon@hotmail.com, cynthia.schwarm@co.lane.or.us, deartheo@ziplip.com, dana@cures-not-wars.org, dianne@lostvalley.org, dottibh@yahoo.com, dtextoris@acluohio.org, marc420emery@shaw.ca, Pinky6346@aol.com, gammalyte9000@yahoo.com, glp@globallivingproject.org, info@cerrogordo.net, ibogaine@mindvox.com, jillniemieccohen@hotmail.com, jomaha@sunset.net, jschroed@cwcog.cog.or.us, Vpk123@aol.com, kdfischer1@excite.com, kerry@pacificcoast.net, matt@kucinich.us, swanson@kucinich.us, seanluse@hotmail.com, mkw4820@yahoo.com, Mongoose83117@aol.com, anunez@drugpolicy.org, franklin@ohiodems.org, Samuels.39@osu.edu, phowison@peacehealth.org, gpinkham@rrohio.com, rhoecker@uua.org, ruthzupan@yahoo.com, shakti@shaktirising.org, stansbery.3@osu.edu, stevemanchester@hotmail.com, susangiusto@knology.net, tanner@uci.net, truth@freepress.org, Vimal315@aol.com, positive1@insight.rr.com, dennis@ohiodems.org
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: list@democracynow.org
Subject: Democracy Now!: Michael Moore on Why Bush & Cheney Should Be Arrested
Date: October 23, 2003 at 7:00:06 PM EDT
To: eaquinet@aol.com

DEMOCRACY NOW! DAILY EMAIL DIGEST
October 23, 2003
http://www.democracynow.org
Welcome to Democracy Now!’s new daily email digest. Please forward this to friends and family and encourage them to subscribe. (If you wish to unsubscribe see information below.)
= = = = = = = = =
TODAY’S SHOW: Thursday, October 23
* ¬ďMr. Wolfowitz, Mr. Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld, You Hate Our Troops and You’ve Sent Them Off To Die So Your Friends Can Get Rich¬Ē ¬Ė An Hour With Michael Moore *
Democracy Now! spends the hour hearing the words of Academy Award-winning documentary filmmaker, television producer and author Michael Moore speaking at part of his current nation-wide tour promoting his latest book Dude, Where’s My Country?
Listen/Watch/Read
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/23/1548201
* Headlines, October 23 *
– Leaked Rumsfeld Memo Questions Successes of War on Terror
– UN Faulted For Lack of Security at Baghdad HQ
– Army: 28 Soldiers on Leave Refuse to Return to Iraq
– Saudi Arabia To Try 83 Protesters
– EPA Rules Changes Will Lead to More Pollution
Listen/Watch/Read
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/23/1544245
= = = = = = = = =
COMING UP ON DEMOCRACY NOW!
Friday, Oct. 24
Arundhati Roy, acclaimed Indian activist and author of Power Politics, War Talk, and the novel The God of Small Things, gives a speech at Riverside Church in Harlem titled, “Instant-Mix Imperial Democracy, Buy One Get One Free.”
= = = = = = = = =
ABOUT DEMOCRACY NOW!
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Now real-time CLOSED CAPTIONED on TV!
You can also listen to and watch all Democracy Now! show online:
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To bring Democracy Now! to your community, go to:
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To Subscribe, go to http://www.democracynow.org/maillist.pl

To unsubscribe from this list click this link or paste the url into a web browser
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From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bwiti’s music
Date: November 2, 2003 at 4:47:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello, here is a copy¬†of the message I’ve received from the guy to whom I’ve commanded the 2 CD I’m waiting for. I’ve found his adress by surfing on the net : He has various activities about circus teaching and music.
He is in relationship with Ebando, an association about Bwiti. Here is the url of this association, they have a english website to : http://www.f-i-a.org/ebando/english_presentation.htm

Thanks for your interest about my experience ūüėČ For my part I’ve commanded the first two¬†CD.
I can tell you how they sound when I’ll receive them.

Friendly,
Martine

Do you understand french language ? I translate it ūüėČ

Bonjour, Hello

En effet nous avons des cd à vendre: Effectively, we have CD to sell.
– N’Donguy : Musique du BWITI Fang : harpe sacr√©e, chant et percussions √† 15 ‚ā¨
N’Donguy: Music of the Bwiti Fang : Sacred harp, song and drums for 15 ‚ā¨.
– Minanga : Musique du Bwiti Mitshogo: Arc √† bouche, chant, percussions, harpe (2 morceaux)√† 15 ‚ā¨.
Minanga : Music of the Bwiti Mitshogo : Mouth bow, song, drums and harp (2 pieces) for 15 ‚ā¨.

– Yvon Kassa Minanga: “La Source” d’inspiration de musique du Bwiti ,avec un panach√© de musiques traditionnelles, et de morceaux arrang√©s, modernis√©s par l’attribution de sons tels que Basse, batterie, fl√Ľte traversi√®re, synth√©tiseur, choeurs, saxophones; sur la base de la harpe, de l’arc √† bouche, de l’Obaka ( tige de bois frapp√©e), et tambours Gabonais.
Yvon Kassa Minanga : “The Source”, inspired from the Bwiti’s music, with a meltingpot of traditional musics, arranged pieces, modernised with integration of sounds like bass, drum set, flute, synthetizer, choirs, saxophones, on musicals bases played by harp, mouth bow, and Obaka (knocked piece of wood), and drums from Gabon.
Ce CD est √† 20‚ā¨. / This CD costs 20 ‚ā¨.
Les trois sont tr√®s bons…. The tree CD are very good …
Il nous suffit de recevoir un chèque du montant désiré à : / We just need to receive a cheque of the right amount at this place :
Jean-Luc R√ČMOND
le Grand Bideau
33430 Le NIZAN
Tél: 05 56 25 23 70
site: http://pageperso.aol.fr/mdeb1639  / Personal website
Le port √©tant en sus( compter 2‚ā¨ pour 2 CD….) et bien-sur votre adresse.
The postage is of 2 ‚ā¨ for 2 CD, and of course your adress. (This is worthy for french postage of course).

cordialement / cordially

Jean-Luc R√ČMOND

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Martine
> > and I’ve commanded two CD of that music
>
> Martine, where did you order from?
>
> Interesting how you used the music during the experience.
>
> Bill Ross
>
>

 

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal of Addicti…
Date: November 1, 2003 at 9:32:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I had it 9 years ago to get on the clinic I go to.<

This is how they decided you were in need of methadone, but giving you
Narcan? That is so sick, I am in awe. But then the whole stinkin’ war is
sick, so I don’t know why I should be anything but in awe, not to mention
nausea.
Where is your clinic Curt? What state/city are you in?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Curt Litzler
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal
of Addicti…

I had it 9 years ago to get on the clinic I go to. And it is pure torture,
that’s the truth.
Curt.

From: “Preston Peet”
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal
of Addicti…
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:20:34 -0500

The below snip is from M is for Methadone by Preston Peet- (long Google
cached URL, so cut and paste it to read the whole thing, for those like
Brad
who’ve probably not seen this, written, oh, about 3 or 4 years ago now,
even
though the date at the top says 2002 for some reason)-

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:lNrbPuTTovMJ:www.disinfo.com/archive/p
ages/dossier/id838/pg1/+M+is+for+methadone&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Promoted by Drs. Marie Nyswynder, and Vincent Dole in the mid-1960s as
the
most promising method of treating heroin addiction, MMT began to receive
more attention from the medical community, and gradually limited tests were
begun to gauge MMT’s efficacy in treating hardcore heroin addicts. Reading
through the National Institute of Health’s Consensus Development Statement,
titled “Effective Medical Treatment Of Opiate Addiction”, not much, it
seems, has changed. US scientists and doctors still have a lack of
compassion for their “test subjects” that echoes the Nazi doctors. In the
Diagnosis of Opioid Addiction section, the report states that if an addict
has failed after all tests to convince the doctor he/she is really a heroin
addict, the doctor can obtain further evidence by administering a “Naloxone
(Narcan) challenge test to induce withdrawal symptoms.” This instantly
induces withdrawals, and is what paramedics give overdose victims when
trying to resuscitate them dead on the sidewalk. I’ve seen it given to a
friend, and he was definitely not happy when jerking awake, sick as a dog.
It is sadistic torture giving Naloxone to someone simply, to prove that
they’re are an addict.<
Weird synchronicity, and there are a lot of links both in and after the
essay.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Brad Fisher
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal
of Addicti…

I have an idea there would be a lot less researching if we gave the
researchers a taste of what they want to do to others. Giving Opiate
addicted people doses of Naltreaxone or Nalaxone or Narcan is right out of
Hitler’s handbook. I maybe did not spell it correctly but I certainly know
what it does to an addict.
bf

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 1:40 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal
of Addicti…

I’ll third that! Why would they even want to do that?! Doesn’t take a study
to know that it could make someone want to die if they were continually
given Narcan injections! I really don’t see what they are researching for.

Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed
Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers.

From: “Curt Litzler” <cosmiccurt@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal of Addicti…
Date: November 1, 2003 at 6:18:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I had it 9 years ago to get on the clinic I go to. And it is pure torture, that’s the truth.
Curt.

>From: “Preston Peet”

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To:

>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal of Addicti…

>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:20:34 -0500

>

>The below snip is from M is for Methadone by Preston Peet- (long Google

>cached URL, so cut and paste it to read the whole thing, for those like Brad

>who’ve probably not seen this, written, oh, about 3 or 4 years ago now, even

>though the date at the top says 2002 for some reason)-

>

>http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:lNrbPuTTovMJ:www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id838/pg1/+M+is+for+methadone&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

>

> >Promoted by Drs. Marie Nyswynder, and Vincent Dole in the mid-1960s as the

>most promising method of treating heroin addiction, MMT began to receive

>more attention from the medical community, and gradually limited tests were

>begun to gauge MMT’s efficacy in treating hardcore heroin addicts. Reading

>through the National Institute of Health’s Consensus Development Statement,

>titled “Effective Medical Treatment Of Opiate Addiction”, not much, it

>seems, has changed. US scientists and doctors still have a lack of

>compassion for their “test subjects” that echoes the Nazi doctors. In the

>Diagnosis of Opioid Addiction section, the report states that if an addict

>has failed after all tests to convince the doctor he/she is really a heroin

>addict, the doctor can obtain further evidence by administering a “Naloxone

>(Narcan) challenge test to induce withdrawal symptoms.” This instantly

>induces withdrawals, and is what paramedics give overdose victims when

>trying to resuscitate them dead on the sidewalk. I’ve seen it given to a

>friend, and he was definitely not happy when jerking awake, sick as a dog.

>It is sadistic torture giving Naloxone to someone simply, to prove that

>they’re are an addict.<

>Weird synchronicity, and there are a lot of links both in and after the

>essay.

>Peace,

>Preston

>

>—– Original Message —–

>From: Brad Fisher

>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 6:21 PM

>Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal

>of Addicti…

>

>

>I have an idea there would be a lot less researching if we gave the

>researchers a taste of what they want to do to others. Giving Opiate

>addicted people doses of Naltreaxone or Nalaxone or Narcan is right out of

>Hitler’s handbook. I maybe did not spell it correctly but I certainly know

>what it does to an addict.

>bf

>

>—–Original Message—–

>From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com]

>Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 1:40 PM

>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Narcan injections for detox??? American Journal

>of Addicti…

>

>I’ll third that! Why would they even want to do that?! Doesn’t take a study

>to know that it could make someone want to die if they were continually

>given Narcan injections! I really don’t see what they are researching for.

>

>

>

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Martine
Date: November 1, 2003 at 12:43:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and I’ve commanded two CD of that music

Martine, where did you order from?

Interesting how you used the music during the experience.

Bill Ross

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Martine
Date: November 1, 2003 at 4:52:13 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello Callie I like your exercice, what a good idea, it makes me laugh !
It connects me to those kind of words : Relax, immensity inside, confidence, deep breathing and a little smile coming >from within, the kind of smile that comes with a feeling of ” at last ” “I was right to hope” , “I was right to¬†wait that long”.
With those words, I speak >from my own experience, the feelings I had the previous days of meeting Iboga process, the days of the process, and the ” after “.
It doesn’t mean that I did’nt had to cross some kind of fear¬†before I took the firm decision to subscribe to go there, and I¬†have listened carefully to what my sisters, brother, and friends said to me when I’ve talked to them about Iboga and my desire to test it.
I wanted to accept freely the risk of the unknown, and to accept it completly, it was a real mighty choice I’ve done for me.
And it doesn’t mean that I know feel free >from sadness, anger, impatience, simply those feelings are really less boring, less lasting, no more “vampires”, two weeks after my Iboga’s contact.

As a nurse, I’ve neither¬†never heard before about Ibogaine, the first informations came a couple of months ago, through my brother who met¬†on a train a guy who speaked to him ” of that very special plant from Africa, able to spare years of psychological work “.
I remember my septicism and the fear I had that my brother could get involved in ” something bad ” and would fly away >from reality, and so on, so I warned him to pay attention…
I forgot about it but I’d felt interested about the psychological possibilities presented, even if they were embellished ” >from mouth to ear ” as we say in France ;-).

This summer, during holidays, I’ve met two guys who had made that special experience a few months ago and one of them¬†explained what it was about. I was glad to have the possibility of first hand informations.

I’m not working in an Iboga center, but I would like it, for sure cause there are so many people who could benefit from Iboga, I’m thinking of people crossing depression, victims of child abuse, accidents, agressions, people wanting to push the wall away to feel really alive, etc.
As for the ” plant which spares years of psychological work “, every body interested has to make it’s own experiment ! ūüėČ
I believe for my part that someone trained for psychological work is a good ally on the way, depending from what wants to be achieved, probably.

As for your question, I have no magical answer ūüėČ But I’d say that soothing the rythms of the mind, calming it down can be of good help, and the exercice you’ve proposed is one good example of what I mean !
Have you get the message I’ve sent about the website created by the guy who recorded musics and songs used in Africa during the whole initiation ritual, that lasts three days and nights ?
Here it is, and I apologyze cause in fact it’s not ” one guy” but two who propose their wonderful study on the net, with pictures, musical explanations and little musical pieces that you can download and burn, to get an idea of the musicotherapy used by the Nganga during the process.
http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articletoshow=63&language=en

Download them following their order and then you could choose to listen¬†with the touch repeat ” on “, to get impregnation, while lying on your bed for example ūüėČ
For my part I deeply experimented the power of that music, those rythms during a process of two nigths and I’ve commanded two CD of that music, I’m eager to receive them !
I remember for example, when I got visualisations that sounded ” heavy”, I ” gave” them in some kind¬† to this “throbbing” music. I’m not sure of throbbing, I mean music going on and on and on and on, letting¬†me no peace, and always keeping my mind awake and alert ūüėČ
I sometimes had really enough, but I understood it was useful for the job going on in my spirit.
As I say previously, I gave the heavy or complex visualisations to the music, I mean I noticed that when I specially listened to a special part of the music going on and on and on, the picture¬†vanished away like it did with the ”¬†Who are you ” or special look in or on the picture.¬†So I created a mental connexion beetwen the pictures and those pics of music, in that sooo special state of mind induced by Iboga.

That’s all ūüėČ ! Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Martine

Hello Martine and thanks for the personal inquiry!
I live in Nashville, Tennessee so I will have to travel to experience Ibogaine. I have started an ‘Ibogaine savings jar’ to help financially. I live on a Practical Nurse salary which is enough for necessities but little left for anything extra.
I just joined the list in September. I was researching Methadone when I came across an Ibogaine link. It was the first I had ever heard of it. No one in my social or professional circle has heard of it either. In fact, all I have received back after I tell someone about Ibogaine is skepticism and a confused or worried look!! As soon as I said it is a hallucinogenic people turned completely off so now I just say it is an African plant with great ability to treat opiate addiction. I then encourage them to do their own research!
If you have any ideas on how I might speed up my ‘future’ please let me know.
Do you work in an Ibogaine Center?
Again, thanks for the inquiry!
Callie

From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Match
Date: November 1, 2003 at 3:44:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello, I’m Martine and not Jardine ūüėČ
In french ” jardine ” means he or she gardens ūüėČ I like it too.

You’re right, I did’nt answer to you on the right message, what I wrote for you was :
“Hello,¬†where is your friend living ?¬†What have¬†you already found on the net ?”.
I know personnaly nothing about the healing work that Iboga allows to achieve against addiction, cause I went for self development, emotionnal healing.

I’ve read a lot of testimonies about previous addicted persons who where pretty surprised and could hardly believe that one test with Iboga had free them >from withdrawal symtoms for weeks or months.
Nevertheless, for the whole healing process to get achieved, it sounds clear that the persons have to be ready, deeply ready for that whole change in their own life.

My personnal advice for your friend would be¬†: Imagine before going¬†what you really want¬†to change,¬†the difficult¬†periods of¬†your life you want to examine with another point of view,¬†the relations and relationships you want to understand better, really that kind of inner research, and get ready to know better your own responsability in your own life. And trust the process ūüôā ! Open your mind.
My point of view is the more is ready to be worked inside, the more will be worked inside, the more inner freedom and well being is recovered.

The work goes on after Iboga treatment, does your friend benefit from psychological work with a therapist ?
Following what I’ve been reading and what I’ve heard, that very special “window of time” has to be used for psychological help, to go to the roots of the addiction and “clean” what needs to be “restructured” in the psychogical construction of the person.
I use the word ” clean “, not meaning that the person fighting against addiction have something ” dirty “, that not what I think. I’ve experienced through my own work with Iboga, the vision and feeling of very pure water many times during the process, original water, and I felt washed, clean,¬†deeply relaxed¬†inside my self. That’s so goooooood ūüėČ

I was asking you about what you’ve already found cause there are¬†interesting websites on Iboga and I wondered wether you know them already ?
Here is one for example, have you already checked it before : http://www.ibogaine.net/ ?

What do the ” cons ” say about Iboga ? I’m really interested, if you’re ok to tell more about their arguments ?

Friendly,
Martine

—– Original Message —–
From: Match27552@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Match

I’m sorry Jardine but it seems you didn’t understand what I was asking. I’m not asking for info for myself I’m trying to help a friend.

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