Ibogaine List Archives – 2005-02-1

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] art imitating life…again
Date: February 28, 2005 at 11:53:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
To ask a favor, please keep your fingers crossed for me tomorrow. I have an audition for some tv pilot, a day player role, playing, get this…a junkie!
LOL!!!
Seriously, I don’t know the name of the show, but I got the sides today. I’ve got to memorize one line, and play the part of a “staring with wounded wet eyes” junkjem, and ask the “top narcotics officer in the city” one question- “can you help me out?”
This isn’t actually the first time this has happened, as I believe I’ve written here before. I played a junkie in that tv show Third Watch, back in an early season (is that show even still on?), in a scene in Tompkins Square Park. There I was with the lead “runaway” chick, leaning on my shoulder as the scene opened and the paramedics approached to question her about something or other, she and I and a few other junkie youth hanging out in the Lower East Side, sitting about 20 yards from the kids’ pool in TSP, right where I used to sit and shoot up speedballs on a regular basis, often greeting the sun, morning after morning at exactly the same time we were sitting there shooting this scene.
I’ve also played a busker in a remake of The Prince of Central Park, and was placed exactly where I had sat and played during my street bound, living in Central Park stage.
It’s very strange how life imitates art, or vice versa actually.
For more on Tompkins Square and me greeting the sun during those long ago real-life junkie days, along with a photo or two of said kids’ pool in the park, please visit:

http://www.drugwar.com/sitwoutofaction.shtm
(I’ve posted this before, so many if not most of you have probably seen it- but I think we have some newer subscribers who may enjoy the entertaining misadventure tale.)
Anyway, again, please keep your fingers crossed- if I don’t get the part playing a junkie with one sole line, darn it, I don’t know how I’m ever going to live that one down. (Come to think of it, I didn’t get a part once where I had to play the part of a store clerk explaining to some kid how to roll a joint- egad, that was also very embarrassing, as I am one of those very, very professional like joint rollers when I get the opportunity to actually roll one.)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine]reposte to Thanks for Steve
Date: February 28, 2005 at 11:54:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Steve

Hi Steve:

“What sort of Dr. are you? A good Dr. or a bad Dr.?”

When are we talking about?  I was worse as a newbie and I think I’m
lots better than that now. Learning from patients and their families
in private practice will educate you better than any medical school.
I’m a naturopathic physician, graduate of one of the older
naturopathic medical schools and in practice for almost 20 years.
Lots of morphing through those years into who and where I am now.
Compared to the product coming through allopathic medical schools, I
am a damn fine doctor, but that doesn’t really set the bar very
high.

“Schweitzer never took iboga, he was way too much of a Christian to
do so.”

I’m sure there was plenty of mythologising around him and I don’t
trust my own readings on him for accuracy, but aren’t the Bwiti
themselves Christian?  Or a Catholic, local hybrid, like voudon?
Probably he was too European white-boy anglo centric, and nailed
into carefully cultivated racist stereotypes to risk anything as
radical as ibo. Everyone works out to be imperfect and loaded with
inner conflicts, especially the productive genius types, ever notice
that? HST proves that point.

“There are so many myth’s about the ibo, eh? Pygmies… selfless
devotion to helping addicts… One day I’ll write them all out.”

That would be a treat. See if you can get with the videographer
who’s work is out now. Devolution has our society becoming less
literate and capable of abstract reasoning, despite what the
academic fan club likes to tell each other. A great visual story
with your words might get into people’s minds more effectively

“I read more of Peter’s work and I realized he will never think ibo
has any
worth. If “the addiction doctor [is] the voodoo priest of Western
man,” I
doubt he will find any value  in something that is ultimately a
combination
of both. Snowballs in hell. No sooner could I convince a priest of
the joy
of hot sex with a nubile boy. Uhhmm. Never mind.”

Personally, I would consider it a promotion to move from addiction
doctor to voodoo priest, as far as mastering the emotional and
spiritual conflicts in the minds of modern people, but I assume his
meaning is more derogatory. He seems to worship at the alter of
modern scientism and that cult is particularly opaque to most of the
history and wisdom of the human experience. Again devolution is
going on such that any truly educated person of several hundred
years ago would not even be understood or welcome in any modern
“scientific” institutions. (Too “new age” or “religious” to rate any
serious conversations involving tenure.)

“Yes, it’s wrong of me to give Peter kudos for making Dana scream.
But
please, elder statesman? Dana? Are you on drugs Tom?”

Yeah, well, evidently not good enough ones for this list.  Look, if
Dana has offended you and is impolite or not up to professional
standards in his behavior, that’s reason to think what you do.
However, in the past 30 years of social drama around drug use in the
USA, there are only a handful who have been on the front lines for
that time, on “our side”. At least who still live among us. For all
the colorful personalities in the belief systems that so texturize
our society, Dana holds his own for consistency and clarity among
many who don’t. If he wasn’t born and bread as a Southern Aristocrat
in the Age of Enlightenment, well then he wasn’t, and neither were
we.

I can appreciate a good scream at some of the pathetic whack job
“professionals” who support this fucking sick status quo with every
sarcastic statement on these subjects they are usually well paid to
make. Dana may be a lousy public advocate, if you have a comparative
to a good one, but at least he advocates and activates for the
public and not the drug cartels or the multinationals who so totally
control most of the public “knowledge” about all drugs and their
misunderstood effects.

I’d rather have some passion and life at my side than ten times as
much paralysed social decorum that will never change a damn thing.
The whole “unscientific” thing is a hot button for me because the
allopaths (MD’s) have worked the shit out of that on alternative
medicine for all my life.  Meanwhile they don’t read and understand
their own science worth a damn. And they sure aren’t permitted to
practice scientifically supported medicine in their clinics.
Estrogens were proven killers for decades before the expiring
patents were “discovered ” to suggest this is true.  The
implementation of the scientific method with an open mind is the
most subversive and punishable act imagined in most medical schools.
See where it gets you sometimes in a conversation with these
sacrosanct “authorities”.  “Science”, in this culture is the
ultimate crack whore for who it services.

“Randy, you wrote “And Keith Richards aint got shit on Hunter when
it comes
to doing drugs.” Why this slavish worship of drug use? If he had to
take
enema’s to make it through the day, I doubt there would be such
screaming
celebration of his enema use. He also made allot of it up. Keef was
once
asked whom his favorite fictional character was. Hunter S.
Thompson.”

Let’s get some legendizing going for us, Steve. I hope to view that
video soon, and see what they came up with. This worship of the
Heroin “lifestyle” sliding through the social construct we call
culture is a powerful mythology that deserves replacement by
something better. Picture a giant goddess Bwiti, holding open arms
to a few hundred thousand colorful chanting bouncing tall African
warriors. The words “drug use” doesn’t suffice to compare the
effects or experience of the poppy or iboga. What do you think would
communicate the flavor of iboga to modern “drug users”? I liked that
little Flash cartoon that went around last month on Dr. Hoffman.
Maybe we could design some macabre rat studies to share on Howard
Stern’s show, but even there, the rats don’t write very well, or lie
or pretend…

Anyway gotta go. I’ll look for some more of those really Good drugs,
;->!

Dr. Tom

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Waiting for a sdefinition
Date: February 28, 2005 at 11:47:08 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I ‘ve been surfing the net seeking a definition of addiction. I am growing
old , never found it…

—– Original Message —–
From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: RE: Thoughts for pc

Peter’s response, he’s off the list.

STEVEN, I NEVER SPOKE ABOUT A BEST WAY.JUST INTENDED TO SAY THAT CHANGING
AN OPIATE HABIT ACCORDING TO ME BRINGS THE LEAST HASSLE ONCE PEOPLE ARE
READSY AND TAPER OFF, IN THEIR OWN PACE, PROVIDED THEY REALLY WISH TO
CHANGE.
I DO NOT BELEIVE IN PEOPLE NOT CHANGING IF THEY WISH, BUT I DO BELEIVE IN
PEOPLE WANTING TO CHANGE TOO EARLY OR OUT OF TOO MUCH DESPAIR AND NOTHING
ELSE. A BAD POSITION BECAUSE THE FUNCTIONALITY OF THE DRUG USE  PATTERN
IS
STILL THERE. IN THOSE CASES PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTINUE.
CHANGING HABITS IS SO DIFFICULT BECAUSE AFTER SOME TIME AND SOME SURVIVAL
HABITS BECOMES PART OF THE SENSE OF IDENTITY.
OPTIONS ARE OKAY, OF COURSE!
MY PART OF THE DISCUSSION IS HIGHLY OPINIONATED AFTER 25 YRS IN THE
BUSINESS, AND EXTREMELY CYNICAL IN RELATION TO MOST CONVENTIONAL
THEORETICAL EXPLANATION TOOLS OF INTENSE DRUG USE, CERTAINLY THE
MECHANICAL
ONES( LIKE THE MODERN MEDICAL EXPLANATIONS)
I DO NOT AND NEVER DID DENY PEOPLE HAVE FELT HELPED BY IBO ( OR THE
SETTING, OR THE CARE, OR THE EMPATHY,ETC)
DEALING WITH UNDERLYING PAIN BY A ONE TIME EXPERIENCE IS ALSO POSSIBLE,
CALLED LEARNING, INSIGHT, ETC.

WE DO NOT NEED THE DISEASE CONCEPT FOR DISCUSSING INTENSE AND FREQUENT
DRUG
USE. DISEASE IS THE BUZZ WORD FOR MODERN PHARMACOLOGY AND CERTAINLY
PSYCHPHARMACOLOGY; THE MORE STATES OF MIND CAN BE MEDICALISED, THE
BETTER.

I DO NOT HAVE THE TALENT TO GET HOOKED TO ANYTHING. NOT FUNCTIONAL.I DO
NOT
APPRECIATE OPIATES, TRIED SOME OF THEIR VARIETIES BUT FOUND NO HEDONISTIC
OR OR OTHER USE FOR THEM. FOR THOSE WHO FEEL ‘NORMAL’ BY THEIR USE I CAN
NOT SPEAK AT ALL.BUT THEIR DESIRE TO CONTINUE THEIR USE SEEMS COMPLETELY
NORMAL TO ME.
IT IS GENERALLY TRUE THO THAT EXPERIENCING SOMETHING HELPS
‘UNDERSTANDING’
WHAT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT, BUT COULD NOT I HAVE AN OPINION ON THE
THEORETICAL
MERIT OF EXPLANATIONS FOR A PHENOMENON? IT HELPED ME REALISE THE
ATTRACTION
OF SOME DRUGS BY TRYING THEM, AND IT MAY HAVE INFLUENCED MY THEORETICAL
POSITIONS, BUT NOT MUCH.E.G. TRYING MDMA DID NOT INFLUENCE MY VIEW ON THE
THEORETICAL OR METHODOLOGICAL MODELS USED IN THE DESPERATE SEARCH FOR
TOXIC
ACTIVITY OF THE DRUG

Just for a minute, I would love for you to consider some of your
positions.
Never wrong?
TRUE, DRUG USE CAN BE HARMFUL TO ONES HEALTH.SO WHAT?
PROHIBITION MAKES THE USE OF SOME SO HARMFUL THAT IT CRUSHED PEOPLE.THAT
IS
WHAT I MEANT WITH THE CONTEXT THAT CREATES THE VENERATION FOR IBO.
IT IS THIS VENERATION THAT I STRUGGLED MOST WITH, AND THE LACK OF
UNDERSTANDING FOR THE SOCIAL CONTEXT THAT PROVOKES IT.

ABOUT TOURISM: I SEE YOUR POINTS.

A question for you: do you think there is a Darwinian reason for drug
use?
NO
Why do some humans like to get fucked up?

I DO NOT THINK PEOPLE WANT TO GET FUCKED UP.THEY WILL THO.

So, what’s your story? How did you become the semiotic drug expert who
hates
drug experts?

I SEE DRUG EXPERTS, MOST OF THEM, AS CLERKS IN A CHURCHY BUSINESS, NOT AS
SCIENTIST. MOSTLY MY INTEREST IN A HISTORY
ORIENTED VERSION OF SOCIOLOGY  BROUGHT ME THERE.

TAKE CARE STEVE, I AM OFF LIST NOW BUT IF YOU WISH WE CAN CONTINUE OUR
DISCUSSION.
PC

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FW: RE: Thoughts for pc
Date: February 28, 2005 at 3:00:50 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It isn’t surprising to me that Peter C. left this list,
I’m thinking about it myself.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Verzonden: maandag 28 februari 2005 20:11
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] FW: RE: Thoughts for pc

Peter’s response, he’s off the list.

STEVEN, I NEVER SPOKE ABOUT A BEST WAY.JUST INTENDED TO SAY THAT CHANGING
AN OPIATE HABIT ACCORDING TO ME BRINGS THE LEAST HASSLE ONCE PEOPLE ARE
READSY AND TAPER OFF, IN THEIR OWN PACE, PROVIDED THEY REALLY WISH TO
CHANGE.
I DO NOT BELEIVE IN PEOPLE NOT CHANGING IF THEY WISH, BUT I DO BELEIVE IN
PEOPLE WANTING TO CHANGE TOO EARLY OR OUT OF TOO MUCH DESPAIR AND NOTHING
ELSE. A BAD POSITION BECAUSE THE FUNCTIONALITY OF THE DRUG USE  PATTERN IS
STILL THERE. IN THOSE CASES PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTINUE.
CHANGING HABITS IS SO DIFFICULT BECAUSE AFTER SOME TIME AND SOME SURVIVAL
HABITS BECOMES PART OF THE SENSE OF IDENTITY.
OPTIONS ARE OKAY, OF COURSE!
MY PART OF THE DISCUSSION IS HIGHLY OPINIONATED AFTER 25 YRS IN THE
BUSINESS, AND EXTREMELY CYNICAL IN RELATION TO MOST CONVENTIONAL
THEORETICAL EXPLANATION TOOLS OF INTENSE DRUG USE, CERTAINLY THE MECHANICAL

ONES( LIKE THE MODERN MEDICAL EXPLANATIONS)
I DO NOT AND NEVER DID DENY PEOPLE HAVE FELT HELPED BY IBO ( OR THE
SETTING, OR THE CARE, OR THE EMPATHY,ETC)
DEALING WITH UNDERLYING PAIN BY A ONE TIME EXPERIENCE IS ALSO POSSIBLE,
CALLED LEARNING, INSIGHT, ETC.

WE DO NOT NEED THE DISEASE CONCEPT FOR DISCUSSING INTENSE AND FREQUENT DRUG

USE. DISEASE IS THE BUZZ WORD FOR MODERN PHARMACOLOGY AND CERTAINLY
PSYCHPHARMACOLOGY; THE MORE STATES OF MIND CAN BE MEDICALISED, THE BETTER.

I DO NOT HAVE THE TALENT TO GET HOOKED TO ANYTHING. NOT FUNCTIONAL.I DO NOT

APPRECIATE OPIATES, TRIED SOME OF THEIR VARIETIES BUT FOUND NO HEDONISTIC
OR OR OTHER USE FOR THEM. FOR THOSE WHO FEEL ‘NORMAL’ BY THEIR USE I CAN
NOT SPEAK AT ALL.BUT THEIR DESIRE TO CONTINUE THEIR USE SEEMS COMPLETELY
NORMAL TO ME.
IT IS GENERALLY TRUE THO THAT EXPERIENCING SOMETHING HELPS ‘UNDERSTANDING’
WHAT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT, BUT COULD NOT I HAVE AN OPINION ON THE THEORETICAL
MERIT OF EXPLANATIONS FOR A PHENOMENON? IT HELPED ME REALISE THE ATTRACTION

OF SOME DRUGS BY TRYING THEM, AND IT MAY HAVE INFLUENCED MY THEORETICAL
POSITIONS, BUT NOT MUCH.E.G. TRYING MDMA DID NOT INFLUENCE MY VIEW ON THE
THEORETICAL OR METHODOLOGICAL MODELS USED IN THE DESPERATE SEARCH FOR TOXIC

ACTIVITY OF THE DRUG

Just for a minute, I would love for you to consider some of your positions.
Never wrong?
TRUE, DRUG USE CAN BE HARMFUL TO ONES HEALTH.SO WHAT?
PROHIBITION MAKES THE USE OF SOME SO HARMFUL THAT IT CRUSHED PEOPLE.THAT IS

WHAT I MEANT WITH THE CONTEXT THAT CREATES THE VENERATION FOR IBO.
IT IS THIS VENERATION THAT I STRUGGLED MOST WITH, AND THE LACK OF
UNDERSTANDING FOR THE SOCIAL CONTEXT THAT PROVOKES IT.

ABOUT TOURISM: I SEE YOUR POINTS.

A question for you: do you think there is a Darwinian reason for drug use?
NO
Why do some humans like to get fucked up?

I DO NOT THINK PEOPLE WANT TO GET FUCKED UP.THEY WILL THO.

So, what’s your story? How did you become the semiotic drug expert who
hates
drug experts?

I SEE DRUG EXPERTS, MOST OF THEM, AS CLERKS IN A CHURCHY BUSINESS, NOT AS
SCIENTIST. MOSTLY MY INTEREST IN A HISTORY
ORIENTED VERSION OF SOCIOLOGY  BROUGHT ME THERE.

TAKE CARE STEVE, I AM OFF LIST NOW BUT IF YOU WISH WE CAN CONTINUE OUR
DISCUSSION.
PC

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From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: RE: Thoughts for pc
Date: February 28, 2005 at 2:11:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter’s response, he’s off the list.

STEVEN, I NEVER SPOKE ABOUT A BEST WAY.JUST INTENDED TO SAY THAT CHANGING  AN OPIATE HABIT ACCORDING TO ME BRINGS THE LEAST HASSLE ONCE PEOPLE ARE READSY AND TAPER OFF, IN THEIR OWN PACE, PROVIDED THEY REALLY WISH TO CHANGE.
I DO NOT BELEIVE IN PEOPLE NOT CHANGING IF THEY WISH, BUT I DO BELEIVE IN PEOPLE WANTING TO CHANGE TOO EARLY OR OUT OF TOO MUCH DESPAIR AND NOTHING ELSE. A BAD POSITION BECAUSE THE FUNCTIONALITY OF THE DRUG USE  PATTERN IS STILL THERE. IN THOSE CASES PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTINUE.
CHANGING HABITS IS SO DIFFICULT BECAUSE AFTER SOME TIME AND SOME SURVIVAL HABITS BECOMES PART OF THE SENSE OF IDENTITY.
OPTIONS ARE OKAY, OF COURSE!
MY PART OF THE DISCUSSION IS HIGHLY OPINIONATED AFTER 25 YRS IN THE BUSINESS, AND EXTREMELY CYNICAL IN RELATION TO MOST CONVENTIONAL THEORETICAL EXPLANATION TOOLS OF INTENSE DRUG USE, CERTAINLY THE MECHANICAL ONES( LIKE THE MODERN MEDICAL EXPLANATIONS)
I DO NOT AND NEVER DID DENY PEOPLE HAVE FELT HELPED BY IBO ( OR THE SETTING, OR THE CARE, OR THE EMPATHY,ETC)
DEALING WITH UNDERLYING PAIN BY A ONE TIME EXPERIENCE IS ALSO POSSIBLE, CALLED LEARNING, INSIGHT, ETC.

WE DO NOT NEED THE DISEASE CONCEPT FOR DISCUSSING INTENSE AND FREQUENT DRUG USE. DISEASE IS THE BUZZ WORD FOR MODERN PHARMACOLOGY AND CERTAINLY PSYCHPHARMACOLOGY; THE MORE STATES OF MIND CAN BE MEDICALISED, THE BETTER.

I DO NOT HAVE THE TALENT TO GET HOOKED TO ANYTHING. NOT FUNCTIONAL.I DO NOT APPRECIATE OPIATES, TRIED SOME OF THEIR VARIETIES BUT FOUND NO HEDONISTIC OR OR OTHER USE FOR THEM. FOR THOSE WHO FEEL ‘NORMAL’ BY THEIR USE I CAN NOT SPEAK AT ALL.BUT THEIR DESIRE TO CONTINUE THEIR USE SEEMS COMPLETELY NORMAL TO ME.
IT IS GENERALLY TRUE THO THAT EXPERIENCING SOMETHING HELPS ‘UNDERSTANDING’ WHAT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT, BUT COULD NOT I HAVE AN OPINION ON THE THEORETICAL MERIT OF EXPLANATIONS FOR A PHENOMENON? IT HELPED ME REALISE THE ATTRACTION OF SOME DRUGS BY TRYING THEM, AND IT MAY HAVE INFLUENCED MY THEORETICAL POSITIONS, BUT NOT MUCH.E.G. TRYING MDMA DID NOT INFLUENCE MY VIEW ON THE THEORETICAL OR METHODOLOGICAL MODELS USED IN THE DESPERATE SEARCH FOR TOXIC ACTIVITY OF THE DRUG

Just for a minute, I would love for you to consider some of your positions.
Never wrong?
TRUE, DRUG USE CAN BE HARMFUL TO ONES HEALTH.SO WHAT?
PROHIBITION MAKES THE USE OF SOME SO HARMFUL THAT IT CRUSHED PEOPLE.THAT IS WHAT I MEANT WITH THE CONTEXT THAT CREATES THE VENERATION FOR IBO.
IT IS THIS VENERATION THAT I STRUGGLED MOST WITH, AND THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING FOR THE SOCIAL CONTEXT THAT PROVOKES IT.

ABOUT TOURISM: I SEE YOUR POINTS.

A question for you: do you think there is a Darwinian reason for drug use? NO
Why do some humans like to get fucked up?

I DO NOT THINK PEOPLE WANT TO GET FUCKED UP.THEY WILL THO.

So, what’s your story? How did you become the semiotic drug expert who hates
drug experts?

I SEE DRUG EXPERTS, MOST OF THEM, AS CLERKS IN A CHURCHY BUSINESS, NOT AS SCIENTIST. MOSTLY MY INTEREST IN A HISTORY
ORIENTED VERSION OF SOCIOLOGY  BROUGHT ME THERE.

TAKE CARE STEVE, I AM OFF LIST NOW BUT IF YOU WISH WE CAN CONTINUE OUR DISCUSSION.
PC

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From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc
Date: February 28, 2005 at 2:04:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, Fear and Loathing on th Campaing Trail ’72. He was writing about Muskie crying  like a little girl at New Hampshire event in front of the tv cameras which destroyed any chance of his election.  Hunter said Muskies strange behavior could only be explained by a bellyful of ibogaine. I don’t think he really believed that Muskie was on a ‘bellyful of ibogaine.’  I actually hope you become a better writer than Hunter and fufill your potential which is something I think Hunter didn’t do. Our friend Adam Parfrey has to write about doing ether with him, I’ll pass it on when he is done.

Randy, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to piss you off that much. I was trying to be funny and yes I have a problem with sensoring myself. I don’t know if that is a West coast thing, so much as something about me as a person. It’s  a bad neurological condition with a rating in DSM IV, so I have an excuse. It has just been a long standing peeve with me that people celebrate the drug-use mythology of various artists over the art. Most people know Charlie Parker as a junkie over his music. It’s the glamorization of various addictions from Billie Holiday to Keef to Sid V. that have always bugged me as it gives the power to the drugs as opposed to the artist. In an odd way, yes I was trying to help you, it’s your power as a musician and an artist that make you rock out, not the drugs. Every artist you mentioned has been glamorized for drug use. One thing I’ve always wondered about is how was all that mellow 70’s So Cal soft rock of the Eagles and Fleetwood Mack created by some of the most coked out musicians in the world? Greg Allman said that one of life’s big mystery’s was why coke made him play slow and smack fast. The stooges vs. the eagles.

I guess I also reacted strongly because I’ve gone through a family member, my grandfather, blowing his brains out, it’s not fun for the people left behind. It didn’t surprise me, but it didn’t make it better. Right before he died he gave me his awesome gun and rifle collection. I saw a 38 James Bond pistol, “hey what about that one?” “You’ll only get that one from my dead hands.” Didn’t really think about it, thinking it was about self-protection. Having his bloody room to deal with was not fun. Cleaning up (the police don’t offer maid service.) sucked. He did it for what seems to be the same reason as Hunter, getting sick and old. Murder is murder,whether to yourself or someone else.

As a fan of Hunter check out his letters to Ralph Steadman giving parenting advice, it was in one of his recent collections. As a parent and fan, you will love it. Very funny. His recent work on ESPN I liked quiet a bit, even though I don’t like sports. The doc “Breakfast with Gonzo” is decent , you might like as well.

Hey, you lighten up Butthead. If blowing you is what it takes to be friends, then next time you are out West, please give a call, as that is what  us West Coast boys do to be polite. Joking. Ahhh, come on, I never make you smile or laugh? Buddy? I’ll never pick on you again. I’m sorry. And hey, being the fly in the soup isn’t fun for the fly. I’ll stop writing if it does harm, not good. We all want the same thing.

Francis, I know about Bill Wilson and acid. He was trip buddies with Aldus Huxley and we all know he came up with the 12 steps ripped to the tits on belladonna with a visitation of a great white light. I was just writing about Schweitzer, it was his strength of conviction in Christianity which would not allow him to partake in a local animistic religion. He is a hero to me and I was not writing about Christians as a group, merely Schweitzer’s own beliefs. We were not there, who know’s maybe he slipped off and played with the Bwiti. I like to think that if he did, he would have written about it.

Take care,
Steve

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:05:12 -0500

HST’s wife said in an LA Times article a couple days ago that “he used drugs to work, not as an excuse not to work,” which I was touched by.
He also wrote once in Campaign Trail that (Muskie?) one politician who broke down and cried over sleazy attacks on his wife by opponents (I think that was the gist of it, though I could be misremembering as it’s been a long time since I read that) had possibly been given ibogaine, right? Wasn’t that what he’d written? If I’m wrong, please do correct me, but until then I’m going to take the plunge and put this out there.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc

Tom,

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate the list as well, that ‘cosmic mind.’ What sort of Dr. are you? A good Dr. or a bad Dr.?

Dr. Schweitzer never took iboga, he was way too much of a Christian to do so. I’ve heard that he thought iboga to be as important as penicillin. It’s bullshit, another of the ibo myths. He did have some faith in the witch dr.’s around him. What impressed me about his hospital was how completely small and humble his living quarters where. I was hoping for at least a cool organ. There are so many myth’s about the ibo, eh? Pygmies. selfless devotion to helping addicts… One day I’ll write them all out.

I read more of Peter’s work and I realized he will never think ibo has any worth. If “the addiction doctor [is] the voodoo priest of Western man,” I doubt he will find any value  in something that is ultimately a combination of both. Snowballs in hell. No sooner could I convince a priest of the joy of hot sex with a nubile boy. Uhhmm. Never mind.

Peter’s ideas make complete sense, addiction is a creation to satisfy complex societal needs for an evil and quantifying the condition with DSM IV makes it nice. I think that’s it. The only argument I would make against it is to use an analogy of cooking garlic soup. More than garlic goes into the soup, even if it is the main flavor is garlic. Drug use and abuse are a combination of many ingredients.

Yes, it’s wrong of me to give Peter kudos for making Dana scream. But please, elder statesman? Dana? Are you on drugs Tom? Elder statesmen do not scream at differing opinions. Thomas Jefferson was an elder statesman. Howard, maybe. I will stop my venom against Dana as it pisses people off and on my part entirely personal. I do think it is great that he has helped many people and has a fan club. I think what he is best at is getting the word out to junkies. My opinion is that if you offer advice on whether to take ibo or not you should have taken it yourself, that’s all. I think he is a lousy public advocate. From protesting at the NIDA ibo hearings (scientists hate that sort of pressure) to plastering John Kerry with Sara’s thoughts of the importance of shrooms in ibo therapy, I do not see how these actions help. I’m a mean and vengeful fuck and have yet forgive him for distributing stuff I’ve written at protests without my permission. It was rude and I feel that manners are important. His actions reinforce the perception of ibo as a cult. “Science, not a cult.” Let’s talk about Jesus taking ibo now! Yes master.

People have been writing a bit about Hunter S. Thompson lately. Not that long ago the only knowledge people had of ibogaine came entirely from him. “Madness only explained by a bellyful of ibogaine.” I read a great remembrance by Paul Theroux in which he wrote about Hunter:

“He could also be an oblique and fearful man, less a drug addict than (as he sometimes called himself) a dope fiend. There is a peculiar sort of irritable and sober and timid Mr Hyde who is always attempting with the use of drugs to transform himself into a bolder and happier Dr Jekyll; to transform himself for the purposes of art and science from a cranky destructor into a student of human behaviour. It is the Stevenson story turned on its head. I saw this in Hunter. Released from his rages and his babbling, he acquired a much sunnier mood, and after the drugs had taken hold he was calmer, more rational, with a greater attention span; under the influence Hunter called himself “Doc”.

He was always stuffing something into his mouth, and his chain-smoking wasn’t even half of it. I wonder if I ever saw him sober? He wasn’t an alcoholic, but he was certainly a drunkard; and though he could be compulsive, I don’t think he was a drug addict – not an obsessed and needy user of addictive drugs, at any rate, but what is generally known as a stoner and a sniffer. An addict is helpless, but drug-taking was for him a decision.”

Seems to relate a bit to what we have been talking about. Drugs where a decision, did him no great harm, made him nicer and more focused. That suites Peter’s argument. But why do drugs make some people feel normal and sunny and others not? Maybe some brain chemistry? Just maybe?

Preston, I truly hope you don’t pick up Hunter’s mantle and blow your brains out after inviting your son and grandson over for a weekend. Hopefully you can be half as good a writer.

Randy, you wrote “And Keith Richards aint got shit on Hunter when it comes to doing drugs.” Why this slavish worship of drug use? If he had to take enema’s to make it through the day, I doubt there would be such screaming celebration of his enema use. He also made allot of it up. Keef was once asked whom his favorite fictional character was. Hunter S. Thompson.

Happy Monday all,
Steve.

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From: “Ben De Loenen” <daluna@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine-rite of passage documentary
Date: February 28, 2005 at 12:39:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,

Sorry I didn’t react on the orders sooner, but it’s been extremely busy
whith finishing the DVD and the website is being completely redone at
the moment.

Now the DVD’s are finished, I’m in New York at the moment, and as
Howard said, I will take care of everything later this week, when I get
back in Holland. (If it starts to snowstorm here, I might be stuck here
for some more days…you never know).

Thanks for the complements Randy,

Feel free to contact me if you have questions.

Ben

info@lunartproductions.com

Op 27/2/2005 schreef “BiscuitBoy714@aol.com” <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>:

In a message dated 2/27/2005 1:11:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
The producer/director, Ben de Loenen, is currently in the US and will be
returning to Europe later this week.  I anticipate he will respond to orders
then.
Additionally, there will be a paypal link on his page for payments soon.

http://www.lunartproductions.com/html/home.htm

Howard
I highly recommend this documentary. Ben is one of the good guys. He did a
phenomenal job of making this movie, and after talking to him I know that his
heart is in the right place about Ibogaine too. I think Ben should take his film
to Cannes, and Sundance as soon as possible.   Randy

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc
Date: February 28, 2005 at 12:05:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HST’s wife said in an LA Times article a couple days ago that “he used drugs to work, not as an excuse not to work,” which I was touched by.
He also wrote once in Campaign Trail that (Muskie?) one politician who broke down and cried over sleazy attacks on his wife by opponents (I think that was the gist of it, though I could be misremembering as it’s been a long time since I read that) had possibly been given ibogaine, right? Wasn’t that what he’d written? If I’m wrong, please do correct me, but until then I’m going to take the plunge and put this out there.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 2:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc

Tom,

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate the list as well, that ‘cosmic mind.’ What sort of Dr. are you? A good Dr. or a bad Dr.?

Dr. Schweitzer never took iboga, he was way too much of a Christian to do so. I’ve heard that he thought iboga to be as important as penicillin. It’s bullshit, another of the ibo myths. He did have some faith in the witch dr.’s around him. What impressed me about his hospital was how completely small and humble his living quarters where. I was hoping for at least a cool organ. There are so many myth’s about the ibo, eh? Pygmies. selfless devotion to helping addicts… One day I’ll write them all out.

I read more of Peter’s work and I realized he will never think ibo has any worth. If “the addiction doctor [is] the voodoo priest of Western man,” I doubt he will find any value  in something that is ultimately a combination of both. Snowballs in hell. No sooner could I convince a priest of the joy of hot sex with a nubile boy. Uhhmm. Never mind.

Peter’s ideas make complete sense, addiction is a creation to satisfy complex societal needs for an evil and quantifying the condition with DSM IV makes it nice. I think that’s it. The only argument I would make against it is to use an analogy of cooking garlic soup. More than garlic goes into the soup, even if it is the main flavor is garlic. Drug use and abuse are a combination of many ingredients.

Yes, it’s wrong of me to give Peter kudos for making Dana scream. But please, elder statesman? Dana? Are you on drugs Tom? Elder statesmen do not scream at differing opinions. Thomas Jefferson was an elder statesman. Howard, maybe. I will stop my venom against Dana as it pisses people off and on my part entirely personal. I do think it is great that he has helped many people and has a fan club. I think what he is best at is getting the word out to junkies. My opinion is that if you offer advice on whether to take ibo or not you should have taken it yourself, that’s all. I think he is a lousy public advocate. From protesting at the NIDA ibo hearings (scientists hate that sort of pressure) to plastering John Kerry with Sara’s thoughts of the importance of shrooms in ibo therapy, I do not see how these actions help. I’m a mean and vengeful fuck and have yet forgive him for distributing stuff I’ve written at protests without my permission. It was rude and I feel that manners are important. His actions reinforce the perception of ibo as a cult. “Science, not a cult.” Let’s talk about Jesus taking ibo now! Yes master.

People have been writing a bit about Hunter S. Thompson lately. Not that long ago the only knowledge people had of ibogaine came entirely from him. “Madness only explained by a bellyful of ibogaine.” I read a great remembrance by Paul Theroux in which he wrote about Hunter:

“He could also be an oblique and fearful man, less a drug addict than (as he sometimes called himself) a dope fiend. There is a peculiar sort of irritable and sober and timid Mr Hyde who is always attempting with the use of drugs to transform himself into a bolder and happier Dr Jekyll; to transform himself for the purposes of art and science from a cranky destructor into a student of human behaviour. It is the Stevenson story turned on its head. I saw this in Hunter. Released from his rages and his babbling, he acquired a much sunnier mood, and after the drugs had taken hold he was calmer, more rational, with a greater attention span; under the influence Hunter called himself “Doc”.

He was always stuffing something into his mouth, and his chain-smoking wasn’t even half of it. I wonder if I ever saw him sober? He wasn’t an alcoholic, but he was certainly a drunkard; and though he could be compulsive, I don’t think he was a drug addict – not an obsessed and needy user of addictive drugs, at any rate, but what is generally known as a stoner and a sniffer. An addict is helpless, but drug-taking was for him a decision.”

Seems to relate a bit to what we have been talking about. Drugs where a decision, did him no great harm, made him nicer and more focused. That suites Peter’s argument. But why do drugs make some people feel normal and sunny and others not? Maybe some brain chemistry? Just maybe?

Preston, I truly hope you don’t pick up Hunter’s mantle and blow your brains out after inviting your son and grandson over for a weekend. Hopefully you can be half as good a writer.

Randy, you wrote “And Keith Richards aint got shit on Hunter when it comes to doing drugs.” Why this slavish worship of drug use? If he had to take enema’s to make it through the day, I doubt there would be such screaming celebration of his enema use. He also made allot of it up. Keef was once asked whom his favorite fictional character was. Hunter S. Thompson.

Happy Monday all,
Steve.

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] AA fonder and LSD
Date: February 28, 2005 at 10:29:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In the late fifty Bill , one of the two founders of AA took LSD under the
supervision of his friend Gerald Heard .
Dr, Bob the second founder of AA use to shoot himself and his friends with B
complex  When it come to recovery and to find a cure for alcoholism they
where both ready to investigate any , new idea. That should be the attitude
of open minded researchers, christian or not.
love and peace
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 9:16 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc

Steve

Well said, Steve!  Your position was higher ground for our eloquent
mindvoxians. They do share more with each other than they care to
admit. Making Dana scream doesn’t rate a complement to Peter, IMHO,
Dana’s work on behalf of ibo and drug freedom puts him way up into
elder statesman territory for our side.  But, he can probably handle
a rhetorical jab more than Peter, so your comparative worked.

Also, you wildly understated Herr Docktor Schweitzer’s appreciation
of the witch doctors in Africa.  He often referred to them as his
primary referral to local medical professionals for their own
people, and far better qualified than European academics to treat
disease in Africa. I bet he tried Ibo, given a chance and with his
scientific attitude. But again, the central point you made was a
respect for the fascinating history of knowledge and psychological
understandings within the native cultures there. Right on!

I haven’t figured out addiction as disease or freewill use. I’m glad
my addiction tendencies didn’t hit me when the heavier opiates and
today’s designer drugs were a social option.  Just getting through
some phases of overappreciating weed and cigarettes was damn tough
for me. As a Cancer, I got good at various escapes, and lost a few
years back there, I think. I’m sure that all of the list members
have their own unique experiences and stories behind these complex
issues and mnd-food preferences. Beyond a love for the sheer
wizardry of the ibogaine experience, I love that it is a precious
tool for a person to see their deep inner self.  More options and
tools for that work are basically a Good Thing, in my view. The rest
of our discussions are entertaining expressions of everyone’s unique
story.  I appreciate this whole group.

Attaboy Steve. Thanks for keeping the bigger issues in focus for us.

Sincerely,  Dr. Tom, Ibo clan member #074968

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna
Date: February 28, 2005 at 10:06:29 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Im definitely interested though at the moment Im too skint to even pay my rent! 🙁  And I can’t afford to call him-does he have an email address?   A guy wrote to the list, Peter Haaf, saying he quit Subbies using Ibo but he didn’t give much detail.  I emailed him via the list but no reply so far.  I’ll try emailing him personally.  I’m going insane trying to sort out cash and keep up with my degree course so I’d have to plan for Ibo-I know you do too cuz of your kiddy.  Easter would’ve been good but I guess its too late now.  Anyway, I’m definitely interested n I have a friend who is too though he’s more skint than me so it would depend what we got the cost down to.  And where would we do it?

I’ve got to go cuz I’m really busy.  I’ll write properly when I have more time.  I’m thinking of you and hope you’re ok,

Lotsa luv Hannah x
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.

hi hannah

Yes this guy is from Prague its £600 plus expenses but if he gets a few people to treat this is split between the people.  I am not on the sub because everyone on list has said its easier and more affective if on heroin when treated with ibo, if you are interested in being treated maybe we can do this together and split the cost, what do you think?????? let me know and if you want i will give you his phone number.

love donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols
Date: February 28, 2005 at 8:26:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hannah

I rekon your ex is nuts you sound such a fantastic person, keep your chin up believe me it is his loss and i rekon he will be begging you to take him back, and if he does’nt you are better off without him
love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: February 28, 2005 at 7:38:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi hannah

Yes this guy is from Prague its £600 plus expenses but if he gets a few people to treat this is split between the people.  I am not on the sub because everyone on list has said its easier and more affective if on heroin when treated with ibo, if you are interested in being treated maybe we can do this together and split the cost, what do you think?????? let me know and if you want i will give you his phone number.

love donna

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ideal spectral data
Date: February 28, 2005 at 6:59:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

is there someone out there who knows about theoretical chemistry and about how to run academic software like turbomole?

you could be the very first person in the universe to calculate the exact idealized spectral data of the ibogaine-molecule! wouldn´t that be something? if you cannot do that, maybe you know someone who can. then we would have extact frequencies that could be translated into sound and colours.

-ekki

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts
Date: February 28, 2005 at 4:45:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/28/2005 2:57:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, stevenanker@hotmail.com writes:
Randy, you wrote “And Keith Richards aint got shit on Hunter when it comes
to doing drugs.” Why this slavish worship of drug use? If he had to take
enema’s to make it through the day, I doubt there would be such screaming
celebration of his enema use. He also made allot of it up. Keef was once
asked whom his favorite fictional character was. Hunter S. Thompson
It was a fucking joke dude, lighten up. If I had thought you were going to pick at me again, I would have been more on guard. Wait a minute, why the fuck should I be on guard. Just where do you get off putting labels on my intentions anyway. What do you mean slavish? Is this the part where I flip out and make you feel powerful? I’d say blow me, but you may not get the joke, what with your comments about sex with nubile little boys, and enema’s, I wouldn’t want you to take me serious or anything. Are you trying to help me, or just give me shit. OOH, I just thought of it. I’m cool with Dana, so now you hate me too. That’s sick dude. You don’t even know me. Us southern boys don’t say every word that pops in our head. We try and be polite. I guess on the West coast, when you think your opinion is more important than everyone else’s, you just “let er fly” huh? Hey Steve, I thought it was soooo cool the way Charles Bukowski got drunk too. Lighten up Beavis, or get a fuckin’ hobby, or something. I was trying to show respect, with a little humor. You ever read anything by Hunter? He did the same thing. Why do I keep defending my intentions with you? I’ve gone out of my way to show you some respect. I guess if you can’t see that, then I give up.    Randy

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc
Date: February 28, 2005 at 2:55:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Tom,

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate the list as well, that ‘cosmic mind.’ What sort of Dr. are you? A good Dr. or a bad Dr.?

Dr. Schweitzer never took iboga, he was way too much of a Christian to do so. I’ve heard that he thought iboga to be as important as penicillin. It’s bullshit, another of the ibo myths. He did have some faith in the witch dr.’s around him. What impressed me about his hospital was how completely small and humble his living quarters where. I was hoping for at least a cool organ. There are so many myth’s about the ibo, eh? Pygmies
selfless devotion to helping addicts… One day I’ll write them all out.

I read more of Peter’s work and I realized he will never think ibo has any worth. If “the addiction doctor [is] the voodoo priest of Western man,” I doubt he will find any value  in something that is ultimately a combination of both. Snowballs in hell. No sooner could I convince a priest of the joy of hot sex with a nubile boy. Uhhmm. Never mind.

Peter’s ideas make complete sense, addiction is a creation to satisfy complex societal needs for an evil and quantifying the condition with DSM IV makes it nice. I think that’s it. The only argument I would make against it is to use an analogy of cooking garlic soup. More than garlic goes into the soup, even if it is the main flavor is garlic. Drug use and abuse are a combination of many ingredients.

Yes, it’s wrong of me to give Peter kudos for making Dana scream. But please, elder statesman? Dana? Are you on drugs Tom? Elder statesmen do not scream at differing opinions. Thomas Jefferson was an elder statesman. Howard, maybe. I will stop my venom against Dana as it pisses people off and on my part entirely personal. I do think it is great that he has helped many people and has a fan club. I think what he is best at is getting the word out to junkies. My opinion is that if you offer advice on whether to take ibo or not you should have taken it yourself, that’s all. I think he is a lousy public advocate. From protesting at the NIDA ibo hearings (scientists hate that sort of pressure) to plastering John Kerry with Sara’s thoughts of the importance of shrooms in ibo therapy, I do not see how these actions help. I’m a mean and vengeful fuck and have yet forgive him for distributing stuff I’ve written at protests without my permission. It was rude and I feel that manners are important. His actions reinforce the perception of ibo as a cult. “Science, not a cult.” Let’s talk about Jesus taking ibo now! Yes master.

People have been writing a bit about Hunter S. Thompson lately. Not that long ago the only knowledge people had of ibogaine came entirely from him. “Madness only explained by a bellyful of ibogaine.” I read a great remembrance by Paul Theroux in which he wrote about Hunter:

“He could also be an oblique and fearful man, less a drug addict than (as he sometimes called himself) a dope fiend. There is a peculiar sort of irritable and sober and timid Mr Hyde who is always attempting with the use of drugs to transform himself into a bolder and happier Dr Jekyll; to transform himself for the purposes of art and science from a cranky destructor into a student of human behaviour. It is the Stevenson story turned on its head. I saw this in Hunter. Released from his rages and his babbling, he acquired a much sunnier mood, and after the drugs had taken hold he was calmer, more rational, with a greater attention span; under the influence Hunter called himself “Doc”.

He was always stuffing something into his mouth, and his chain-smoking wasn’t even half of it. I wonder if I ever saw him sober? He wasn’t an alcoholic, but he was certainly a drunkard; and though he could be compulsive, I don’t think he was a drug addict – not an obsessed and needy user of addictive drugs, at any rate, but what is generally known as a stoner and a sniffer. An addict is helpless, but drug-taking was for him a decision.”

Seems to relate a bit to what we have been talking about. Drugs where a decision, did him no great harm, made him nicer and more focused. That suites Peter’s argument. But why do drugs make some people feel normal and sunny and others not? Maybe some brain chemistry? Just maybe?

Preston, I truly hope you don’t pick up Hunter’s mantle and blow your brains out after inviting your son and grandson over for a weekend. Hopefully you can be half as good a writer.

Randy, you wrote “And Keith Richards aint got shit on Hunter when it comes to doing drugs.” Why this slavish worship of drug use? If he had to take enema’s to make it through the day, I doubt there would be such screaming celebration of his enema use. He also made allot of it up. Keef was once asked whom his favorite fictional character was. Hunter S. Thompson.

Happy Monday all,
Steve.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Please unsubscribe me from this list
Date: February 28, 2005 at 2:28:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Todd Morgan <sovntm@yahoo.com> wrote:

I’ve looked for an automated routine on ibogaine.org
to unsubscribe from this list but to no avail…..

[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]

Keep looking?

Sorry, I’m baked this made me laugh 🙂

Maybe the answers are hidden in what I received from the mindvox cosmic
eightball tonight.

Could help.

.:vector:.

“Blank Stare . Disrepair . There’s a Big Black Hole . Gonna Eat Me Up .
Someday”
“… When the Going gets Weird … the Weird turn Pro …”
“Nothing seems to kill me…  No matter how hard I try, nothing’s
closing my eyes.”
.. I Hate Grownups ..
“.. All the Words are Gonna Bleed from Me . And I Will Think no More
..”
“What Doesn’t Kill Me … Makes Me Stronger”
“Survived the Hate of this Fuckin’ Place . And, I’ll Kill You When I
Can”
“.. Run me in / I’ll do it all again / Motherfucker, I’m still alive
..”
“… .. . Think About . How many Times . I have Fallen . .. …”
“. Oh No… The Cops may Nail You / Yeah, so? I’ve been to Jail Too .”
This is NOT the Summer of Love
‘Scuse me, gotta go … I have my Parole Officer hanging on a Meathook
in the Basement
Kill For Peace
” . . How Much does one Have to Pay . To Fry a Peak and Melt Away . . ”
Do you Mind if I Move In Under your Sink…?
Dead Bodies Everywhere
MindVox: a Soap Opera on Crack
” Power Corrupts . Absolute Power is Kinda Neat ”
“In the hot red light of a black and white; roses grow.”
” Here She Comes, Salvation in the Night ”
Post Aeternitatem
pr0n, mp3s, w4r3z: warez.phantom.com
The Truth is In There
” … All my Kings have Fallen Down / Broken Heroes Feed the Ground …

I Will Not Fall
Aug 11 11:11:13 entropy mach: ttyscc0: receive error 2 (-902)
“I am the Crawling Dead, a Phantom in a Box Shadow in Your Head”
“.. .Into a Psychic War … I Tear my Soul Apart and Eat it Some More.
..”
“.. I will Swallow Poison until I Grow Immune ..”
Calling All Freaks
Active Ingredients: LSD25 / Crack / Heroin / Ibogaine
Now Featuring: Downloadable Opiate Plug-In!
Power Underneath Despair
Some Assembly Required
“So your sickness weighs a ton.  And God’s name is smack for some.”
Somebody Please Help Me … I’ve Lost All My Molecules
“. . . Ride the Spiral to The End . . .”
Bad Junkie! No Fix!
When All Else Fails: Try Crack!
” … I Hate to Bleed . But it Heals my Pain … ”
More Human than Human
“Purple Haze … All Around”
“. Lost … Like a Prayer .”
Dope Fiend Blues
” . . . Effect Without a Cause … Subatomic Laws … Scientific Pause
. . . ”
Nothing is What it Seems
Love Kills
. ..: Valis :.. .
“Half of Me … Believes in You”
“I Sold my Soul to the Devil … then I Stole it Back”
“Driving down your freeways, midnight alleys roam.”
” . .. I Close my Eyes and Walk a Thousand Years .. . ”
“The Needle and The Damage Done”
Truth, Beauty and Crack
Purity, Innocence and Heroin
Welcome to the MindVox Reform School for Wayward Supermodels
“I’m Broken … It Wants Me Dead — Goddamn this Noise Inside my Head”
2-(2-Chlorophenyl)-2-(Methylamino)-Cyclohexanone / Diacetylmorphine /
12-Methoxyibogamine
Salvation
“It’s Just a Shot Away…”
Rituals of the Reconstruction
“The Wind of Time is Blowing Through Me … Planets are Moving Relative
to Me”
“Everything is Poison / Nothing is Poison”
At War with The Whole Entire Universe
Straight Outta Detox
Welcome to: Tranquillity Acres, Therapeutic Community
Space Ghost is NOT a Beta Carboline
Felons & Revolutionaries
Now Includes: Fully Integrated Messiah Complex
Psychedelic Temple of The Apocalypse
Lost Somewhere in Time
DSM-IV Simplified: (Please Select) [1] Completely Fucking Crazy, or [2]
Full of Shit.
MindVox Theatre of the Absurd . Showtimes: Perpetual
“There is no pain, you are receding…”
“The Gangs and the Government are No Different”
The Last Gathering of The Usual Suspects
,.wE are Transmitting from the year 2012 -^~ .n order to alter _.is
urgEnt thaT y.%,.<$
“. . . I don’t believe in cocaine, got a speedball in MY head . . .”
Yes, but, was I Mature Enough at last night’s Lesbian Masquerade?
Reality is such a Malleable Concept
“Great Spirits have always encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre
Minds.”
I am your War Machine / I am your Ghetto Scene
“I let my mind wander freely, and it didn’t come back.”
“I want to know God’s thoughts…  All the rest are details.”
MindVox – Addiction (Remixed) [Version: LSD/Ibogaine/Heroin/Crack DJ
Flatline].mp3
” …I’m Paranoid of People and it’s Starting to Show… ”
[cDc] Information is Junk Mail / The Tedium is The Message [cDc]
“In the Church of my Heart, the Choir’s on Fire.”
The Cycle Spins it Begins Again
The Great and Secret Show
Erase Me Debase Me Freebase Me
You’d feel Much Better if you Injected some Porn
[-] Total Information Awareness [-]
. . . and Fools Shine on . . .
We Help People Hurt Themselves
Use Once and Destroy
Bringing the Universe: Peace, Harmony and Fucking Kill Them All
Live Long and Prosper / Fuck Off and Die
Now Includes: a Strange Fractal Quality that Self-Organizes across All
Planes
Why do you have to be Such a Bitch?
… Disappear Here …
Here to Save the Universe!
Heroin is Truth
MindVox Bail Bonds . Providing Services Nationwide
Love in Vein
Welcome to Hunt’s Point Industrial Park! Featuring: Coke, Dope & Ho’s
It’s all Spiritual n’ Shit
Spinning the Zeitgeist since Before you Knew the Internet Existed …
Beeyatch
Lost Boys
MindVox: a 52 Car Pileup Just Waiting to Happen!
MindVox: a Disaster of Epic Proportions
All Lit Up Again
Recent Scientific Studies Strongly Suggest that you’re Totally Fucked
“In Lexington they’re Going to Burn The Library of Congress for
Charity”
“. Reach Out and Touch Faith .”
“MindVox: it’s EVEN BETTER than Medication!
Fun With Drugs
“… I’m Near The End … I’m Wasted … and I Can’t Find My Way Home
…”
“I’m a GENIUS! I want to dispute sentence structure with SUSAN SONTAG!”
“. . . We’re Very Tolerant Around Here, Being Only Amateurs Ourselves .
. .”
“Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.”
” . . . I Adapt to The Unknown … Under Wandering Stars I Roam . . . ”
” … And you Look Like a Star .. but You’re Really Out on Parole … ”
Alchemists’ Lane
Are YOU a Psychoactive Substance…?
“You Will Come to a Place, Where the Only Thing you Feel are Loaded
Guns in Your Face”
The Dope Show
Welcome to my Nightmare
Suicide Kings & Trauma Queens
The Successful Application of Knowledge is Power
Welcome to MindVox Foreign Currency Exchange
“Peace Sells … But Who’s Buying”
MINDVOX MEAT PACKING INDUSTRIES AND WASTE DISPOSAL INTL., INC.
Please Xerox this Screen & Send It to 10,000 People or God will Kill
You. Thank You
I am The Future … How do You like What you See?
In Philip K. Dick We Trust
“What Consumes your Thoughts … Controls your Life”
Welcome to the First Church of MindVox / Escort Agency
Faith
Further
Cytochrome P4502D6 Catalyzes the O-Demethylation of 0-Day old WareZ
. .w.iLl wrItE woRdz 4 acId…
Heart of Darkness
Eye of the Cyclone
Temple of Pain
MindVox Syringe & Crackpipe Set . Coming Soon to a Gift Shop Near You!
[EXIT]
POLICE LINE: DO NOT CROSS
Alive
War is Peace / Slavery is Freedom / Ignorance is Strength : Vote Bush!
Yippie!
[NOW = Won] / [Not Now = Wonton (Soup at WO Hops)]
” . Open up your Hate . and Let it Flow into Me . ”
Mainlining God and Freebasing Spirit
“What we’ve got here is Failure to Communicate…”
” The Billions Shift from Side to Side . And the Wars go on with
Brainwashed Pride ”
Slipping into Darkness
I Love My Hate
Dear Mr. Fantasy … Fuck The Police State
Magic and Madness
Kundalini Express
Scary Monsters and Super-Freaks
Warning, Site Contains: Undead, Starving, Rabid, Electrified Attack
Dogs on Speed wid Gatz

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From: Todd Morgan <sovntm@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Please unsubscribe me from this list
Date: February 28, 2005 at 1:04:00 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve looked for an automated routine on ibogaine.org
to unsubscribe from this list but to no avail…..

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine-rite of passage documentary
Date: February 27, 2005 at 4:11:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/27/2005 1:11:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
The producer/director, Ben de Loenen, is currently in the US and will be
returning to Europe later this week.  I anticipate he will respond to orders then.
Additionally, there will be a paypal link on his page for payments soon.

http://www.lunartproductions.com/html/home.htm

Howard
I highly recommend this documentary. Ben is one of the good guys. He did a phenomenal job of making this movie, and after talking to him I know that his heart is in the right place about Ibogaine too. I think Ben should take his film to Cannes, and Sundance as soon as possible.   Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Afghans Accuse U.S. of Secret Spraying to Kill Poppies
Date: February 27, 2005 at 2:43:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Afghans Accuse U.S. of Secret Spraying to Kill Poppies

By CARLOTTA GALL

Published: February 27, 2005

ANAI, Afghanistan – Abdullah, a black-turbaned shepherd, said he was watching over his sheep one night in early February when he heard a plane pass low overhead three times. By morning his eyes were so swollen he could not open them and the sheep around him were dying in convulsions.
Although farmers had noticed a white powder on their crops, they cut grass and clover for their animals and picked spinach to eat anyway. Within hours the animals were severely ill, people here said, and the villagers complained of fevers, skin rashes and bloody diarrhea. The children were particularly affected. A week later, the crops – wheat, vegetables and poppies – were dying, and a dozen dead animals, including newborn lambs, lay tossed in a heap.
The incident on Feb. 3 has left the herders of sheep and goats in this remote mountain area in Helmand Province deeply angered and suspicious. They are convinced that someone is surreptitiously spraying their lands or dusting them with chemicals, presumably in a clandestine effort to eradicate Afghanistan’s bumper poppy crop, the world’s leading source of opium.
The incident in Kanai was not the first time that Afghan villagers – or Afghan government officials – had complained of what they suspected was nighttime spraying. In November, villagers in Nimla, in Nangarhar Province, said their fields, too, had been laced with chemicals when a plane passed overhead several times during the night.
Afterward, Afghan and foreign officials who investigated returned with samples of tiny gray granules that they said provided evidence that spraying had occurred. Two Western embassies sent samples abroad for analysis but have not yet received the results.
At that time, President Hamid Karzai publicly condemned the spraying. Though it was never clear who was responsible, members of his staff said they suspected the United States or Britain, which together have been leading the struggle to rein in Afghan poppy cultivation, which has reached record levels. Both countries finance outside security firms to train Afghan counternarcotics forces.
President Karzai said his government was not spraying fields and had no knowledge of such activity, and he called in the American and British ambassadors for an explanation. Then, as now, the American and British Embassies denied any involvement.
snip-
More at above url.
Damned poisoners- which is worse- opiates or the poisons sprayed upon the poppies to eradicate those opiates? It’s such an obvious answer too, but that doesn’t really matter much when it comes to the WOSDU.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine freebase/caution
Date: February 27, 2005 at 2:41:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I tried smoking the HCl, by accident actually.  I didn’t smoke a lot but a bowl or two full and it was mixed with cannabis, but I didn’t notice any effects.  I would give it a shot with the freebase in small amounts, if I had anymore.  Would be a neat experiment on a crazy guinea pig, like myself!!  😉
CE

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/27/05 5:36:17 AM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

>pure curiosity:
>is there a recipe of how to make freebase out of HCl? its easy to do
>with cocaine HCl . does ibogaine behaves similar ? can freebase be
>absorbed by the body as well as HCl, since its probably not water
>soluble? please donīt get upset anyone, i wonīt try to smoke it and i
>donīt plan to flood the ghettos with crack ibogaine (LOL). its trivial
>pursuit only. -ekki

Ekki and all,

Please note that ibogaine toxicity may be significantly increased by
administration other than oral. IV injection of ibogaine for instance is ten times
more toxic than that of oral administration. Additionally significant biphasic
blood pressure responses may occur. I believe that some research on smoked
ibogaine may have occurred in europe but, I do not have the results and suggest
that this may be an area of research dangerous to human subjects.

Any reports on smoked ibogaine would be appreciated.

Howard

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Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving
Date: February 27, 2005 at 2:06:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Vigilius Haufniensis” <thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <elite_sociopath@yahoogroups.com>; <Mr_Tracys_Corner@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 11:11 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving

—– Original Message —–
From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
To: “MTWT Of Interest” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 1:41 PM
Subject: [cia-drugs] Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving

Pubdate: 26 Feb 2005
Source:  New Scientist
Contact: onlinenews@newscientist.com
Website: http://www.newscientist.com/
Webpage:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524881.400
*****************************************************
Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving

26 February 2005
From New Scientist Print Edition.

John Horgan

John Horgan is a freelance science writer based in Garrison, New York. His
latest book, Rational Mysticism (Mariner Books), was published in paperback
last year

JOHN HALPERN clearly remembers what made him change his mind about
psychedelic drugs. It was the early 1990s and the young medical student at a
hospital in Brooklyn, New York, was getting frustrated that he could not do
more to help the alcoholics and addicts in his care. He sounded off to an
older psychiatrist, who mentioned that LSD and related drugs had once been
considered promising treatments for addiction.

“I was so fascinated that I did all this research,” Halpern recalls. “I was
reading all these papers from the 60s and going, whoa, wait a minute! How
come nobody’s talking about this?”

More than a decade later, Halpern is now an associate director of substance
abuse research at Harvard University’s McLean Hospital and is at the
forefront of a revival of research into psychedelic medicine. He recently
received approval from the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to give
late-stage cancer patients the psychedelic drug MDMA, also known as ecstasy.
He is also laying the groundwork for testing LSD as a treatment for dreaded
super-migraines known as cluster headaches.

And Halpern is not alone. Clinical trials of psychedelic drugs are planned
or under way at numerous centres around the world for conditions ranging
from anxiety to alcoholism. It may not be long before doctors are legally
prescribing hallucinogens for the first time in decades. “There are
medicines here that have been overlooked, that are fundamentally valuable,”
says Halpern.

These developments are a remarkable turnaround. Scientists first became
interested in psychedelic drugs – also called hallucinogens because of their
profound effect on perception – after Albert Hofmann, a chemist working for
the Swiss pharmaceutical firm Sandoz, accidentally swallowed LSD in 1943.

Hofmann’s description of his experience, which he found both enchanting and
terrifying, spurred scientific interest in LSD as well as naturally
occurring compounds with similar effects: mescaline, the active ingredient
of the peyote cactus; psilocybin, found in magic mushrooms; and DMT, from
the Amazonian shamans’ brew ayahuasca.

At first, many scientists called these drugs “psychotomimetics” because
their effects appeared to mimic the symptoms of schizophrenia and other
mental illnesses. However, many users rhapsodised about the life-changing
insights they achieved during their experiences, so much so that in 1957,
British psychiatrist Humphry Osmond proposed that the compounds be renamed
“psychedelic”, from the Greek for “mind-revealing”. The term caught on, and
psychiatrists started experimenting with the drugs as treatments for mental
illness.

By the mid-1960s, more than 1000 peer-reviewed papers had been published
describing the treatment of more than 40,000 patients for schizophrenia,
depression, alcoholism and other disorders.

A prominent member of this movement was Harvard psychologist Timothy Leary,
who among other things tested whether psilocybin and LSD could be used to
treat alcoholism and rehabilitate convicts.

Although his studies were initially well received, Leary eventually lost his
reputation – and his job – after he began touting psychedelics as a hotline
to spiritual enlightenment. Leary’s antics helped trigger a backlash, and by
the late 1960s psychedelics had been outlawed in the US, Canada and Europe.

Unsurprisingly, clinical research ground to a halt, partly because obtaining
the necessary permits became much more difficult, but also because few
researchers were willing to risk their reputations studying demonised
substances.

But to some brave souls, psychedelic medicine never lost its allure. One of
them is Rick Doblin, who in 1986 founded the Multidisciplinary Association
for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) in Sarasota, Florida, and who earned a
doctorate from Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government after writing a
dissertation on the federal regulation of psychedelics.

For nearly 20 years MAPS has lobbied the FDA and other government agencies
to allow research on psychedelics to resume. It has also persuaded
scientists to pursue the work and raised funds to support them.

A similar body, the Heffter Research Institute in Santa Fe, New Mexico, was
founded in 1993 by scientists with an interest in hallucinogens.

In the past couple of years their efforts have begun to pay off. Doblin is
optimistic that psychedelic research is back for good, and this time it will
do things right. “This gives us the chance to show that we have learned our
lessons,” he says. Halpern, too, is anxious to lay to rest the ghost of
Leary.

“That man screwed it up for so many people,” he says.

With this in mind, Halpern says the first task for him and others is to
evaluate the safety of psychedelics. And they are up against an entrenched
orthodoxy: a 1971 editorial in The Journal of the American Medical
Association warned that repeated ingestion of psychedelics causes
personality deterioration. “Only a few of those who experience more than 50
‘trips’ are spared,” it warned.

So Halpern’s first big foray into psychedelic research was aimed at
risk-assessment. In the late 1990s he launched a study of members of the
Native American Church, who are permitted by US law to consume peyote.

Halpern examined 210 residents of a Navajo reservation in the south-west US,
who fell into three categories: church members who had taken peyote at least
100 times but had had little exposure to other drugs or alcohol; non-church
members who abstained from alcohol or drugs; and former alcoholics who had
been sober for at least three months.

Halpern tested the subjects’ IQ, memory, reading ability and other
functions. His interim results showed that church members had no cognitive
impairment compared with the abstainers, and scored significantly better
than recovering alcoholics. Church members also reported no “flashbacks” –
sudden recurrences of a psychedelic’s effects long after the initial trip.

Halpern believes this study, which he expects will be published soon, shows
that contrary to the 1971 editorial, peyote at least can be taken repeatedly
without adverse effects.

He is now conducting a similar assessment of MDMA. This drug is sometimes
called an “empathogen” because it heightens feelings of compassion and
reduces anxiety. Anecdotal reports suggest it has therapeutic potential, and
some psychiatrists used it alongside psychotherapy before it was outlawed in
1985.

However, anecdotal and scientific evidence have also linked MDMA with brain
damage, though the research is controversial.

Ecstasy impact

Judging the true impact of MDMA is complicated by the fact that users often
combine it with other drugs and alcohol. To get around this, Halpern
recruited a group of American mid-westerners who admitted taking MDMA but
said they shunned other substances. He separated them into “moderate” users,
who had consumed MDMA 22 to 50 times, and “heavy” users, who had taken it
more than 50 times.

Halpern recently reported in the journal Drug and Alcohol Dependence that,
compared with controls, heavy users displayed “significant deficits” in
mental processing speed and impulsivity. Moderate users, however, had no
major problems. Halpern believes this shows that MDMA’s benefits may
outweigh its risks for certain patients. And apparently the FDA and the
McLean Hospital agree, since both have approved Halpern’s plan to test MDMA
as an anti-anxiety drug for a dozen late-stage cancer patients.

Halpern still needs permission from the Drug Enforcement Administration, but
he expects to begin recruiting patients soon.

He is also interested in the potential benefits of the true hallucinogens.
In 1996, he reviewed almost 100 substance abuse trials involving LSD,
psilocybin, DMT and ibogaine, an extract of the African shrub Tabernanthe
iboga. Halpern found tentative evidence that the drugs can reduce addicts’
cravings during a post-trip “afterglow” lasting for a month or two.

Exactly how this happens is something of a mystery. A popular theory is that
the benefits stem from the drugs’ psychological effects, which include
profound insights and cathartic emotions, but Halpern suspects that there
may be a biochemical explanation too.

For now, however, Halpern isn’t planning to pursue addiction therapy. He is
more interested in another medical use for LSD and psilocybin: treating a
debilitating condition known as cluster headaches. These attacks appear to
be caused by swelling of blood vessels in the brain and are worse than
migraines. Sufferers say the pain exceeds that of passing a kidney stone or
giving birth without anaesthetics. They affect about 3 in every 1000 people
sporadically, and 1 in 10,000 chronically. “There’s a tremendous potential
need for this,” says Halpern, who investigated the problem after being
approached by a patient group.

Many patients get little or no relief from painkillers, but some claim that
small doses of LSD or psilocybin can alleviate the headaches and even
prevent them from occurring.

Halpern was intrigued; LSD is chemically related to ergot, a naturally
occurring compound that constricts blood vessels, and the derivatives
ergotamine and methysergide are commonly prescribed for migraines.

Halpern and his Harvard colleague Andrew Sewell are now gathering evidence
to persuade licensing officials – and themselves – that LSD and psilocybin
merit a clinical trial. Sewell has gathered more than 60 testimonials from
cluster headache sufferers who have treated themselves with LSD or
psilocybin.

Another member of the vanguard in the psychedelic revival is Charles Grob, a
psychiatrist at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles, California,
and co-founder of the Heffter Institute.

After years struggling to get permits, Grob says he is slowly moving forward
with a study into using psilocybin to reduce distress in terminal cancer
patients. He points out that studies done in the 1960s suggested that
psychedelics can help patients come to terms with their impending death.

So far Grob has treated three patients, but he hopes to enrol more subjects
shortly.

Grob has also led several investigations like Halpern’s peyote study, but
looking at ayahuasca, the DMT-rich shamanic brew. Ayahuasca often causes
nausea and diarrhoea, and its psychedelic effects can be terrifying, but
Amazonian shamans nonetheless prize it for its visionary properties.

Since 1987 it has been a legal sacrament for several churches in Brazil, the
largest of which is União Do Vegetal. UDV combines elements of Christianity
with nature worship, and claims 8000 members.

In 1996 a team led by Grob reported in the Journal of Nervous And Mental
Disease that UDV members who regularly took ayahuasca were on average
physiologically and psychologically healthier than a control group of
non-worshippers. The UDV followers also had more receptors for the
neurotransmitter serotonin, which has been linked to lower rates of
depression and other disorders.

Many of the UDV members told the scientists that ayahuasca had helped them
overcome alcoholism, drug addiction and other self-destructive behaviours.

More recently, Grob has found that adolescents who grew up participating in
ayahuasca ceremonies showed no ill effects and were less likely to engage in
crime and substance abuse than members of a control group. Of course, Grob
acknowledges that they could be benefiting from the social effects of
membership in a church as well as the effects of ayahuasca itself. Grob
plans to publish these results this year.

Several other scientists are quietly pursuing psychedelic research. Since
2001, psychiatrist Francisco Moreno of the University of Arizona in Tucson
has been testing psilocybin as a treatment for obsessive-compulsive
disorder.

Psychotherapy and antidepressants such as Prozac help many patients, but
some have such severe symptoms and are so resistant to treatment that they
turn to electroshock therapy and even brain surgery.

As with the work on cluster headaches, Moreno’s study was motivated by
reports from people with OCD that psilocybin relieves their symptoms.

So far, Moreno has given both sub-psychedelic and psychedelic doses of pure
psilocybin to nine treatment-resistant OCD subjects, in a total of 29
therapy sessions. His preliminary findings suggest firstly that it is safe
to ingest psilocybin, which was a primary concern of the trial. Beyond that,
Moreno calls his results “promising”, but won’t discuss them further, since
he plans to submit a paper to a peer-reviewed journal this year.

Meanwhile in Charleston, South Carolina, physician Michael Mithoefer is
carrying out a MAPS-sponsored clinical trial of MDMA as a treatment for
post-traumatic stress disorder.

PTSD affects up to 20 per cent of people who experience a traumatic event,
and involves distressing symptoms such as nightmares and panic attacks.
Conventional treatments typically consist of cognitive therapy and
antidepressants, but many patients don’t respond to these.

In the past year Mithoefer has given “MDMA-assisted” psychotherapy to six
treatment-resistant patients, all traumatised by violent crimes; he plans to
treat 20 patients in all.

The longest-running psychedelic therapy programme started almost 20 years
ago in Russia. Evgeny Krupitsky, a psychiatrist who heads a substance-abuse
clinic in St Petersburg, has treated more than 300 alcoholics and about 200
heroin addicts with ketamine.

Used primarily in veterinary medicine, ketamine is an anaesthetic that can
trigger an extremely disorienting hallucinogenic episode lasting an hour or
so. Krupitsky’s subjects often emerge from their sessions filled with
revulsion for their past lives and determined to change.

The therapists encourage these feelings with tricks such as forcing the
subjects to sniff a bottle of vodka at the peak of their session; the
patients’ disgust often persists long after the ketamine’s effects have worn
off.

In one of Krupitsky’s studies, 73 out of 111 alcoholics stayed dry for at
least a year after their session, compared with 24 per cent of those in a
control group. Yet his programme, which was funded by MAPS and the Heffter
Institute, was recently shut down because the Russian government tightened
restrictions on ketamine. Although Krupitsky says he and his colleagues “are
in the process of getting permission to continue”, it may be several years
before research resumes.

Although disappointed by this setback, Doblin is encouraged by developments
elsewhere. He is lobbying officials in Spain and Israel to approve studies
of MDMA for PTSD, and is raising funds for a substance-abuse trial of
ibogaine outside the US together with the Heffter Institute.

MAPS has also supported Frans Vollenweider, a psychiatrist at the University
of Zurich in Switzerland, who has done basic research on the physiological
effects of psilocybin and MDMA, and hopes to begin clinical research soon.

Doblin’s primary goal is to see psychedelics legally recognised as
medicines. But he also hopes that someday healthy people may take these
substances for psychological or spiritual purposes, as members of the Native
American Church and União Do Vegetal do, and as he did in his youth.

After all, drugs such as Prozac and Viagra are already prescribed not just
to heal the ill but also to enhance the lives of the healthy.

It is still an uphill struggle. Government funds for psychedelic studies are
hard to come by, and drug companies have shown absolutely no interest in
supporting the research. But there are signs that the wind is changing.

Although psychedelics are still classified in the US as schedule-1 drugs,
and so are banned for all non-research purposes, in November a US Federal
Appeals Court in Colorado ruled that a branch of the UDV based in Santa Fe,
New Mexico, could import ayahuasca for use in ceremonies.

Among the research findings cited in the court decision were Grob’s studies
showing no ill effects from ayahuasca.

The Department of Justice is appealing the decision, but if the Supreme
Court denies the appeal, UDV members in the US will be able to ingest
ayahuasca legally.

Maybe, just maybe, after more than 30 years in the wilderness, this
powerful, misunderstood but potentially mind-healing class of drugs is ready
to be rehabilitated.

<]=———————————————————————–=[>
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone
Date: February 27, 2005 at 1:41:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Somebody needs to pick up where he left off. I think you’re elected dude.<

LOL, ok.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone

Preston, I was reading some old E mails I didn’t get to while I was gone, and came across yours about Hunter S. Thompson. Looks like he meant as much to you as he did to me. My older brother shoved Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas at me when I was 16 I think, and said, ” You have to read this, there’ll be a test later.” I was immediately hooked. I did the same thing you did, and found everything I could by Hunter, and read it. Twice. My son read all his stuff after seeing the movie. It never occurred to me to be a writer, but I sure used his philosophy about drugs in my quest to Rock out. His aura was with me every time I played a gig after I read his stuff. I saw the parallels between us, he’s from KY, I’m from KY, he’s into drugs, I’m into drugs, he’s into guns, I’m into guns, (I started hunting on the farm when I was 8), all before I knew who he was. I’ve never been the same since. Writers are a lot like musicians if you ask me. The great ones are just plain magical. Hunter S. Thompson is the Jimi Hendrix of writers. And Keith Richards aint got shit on Hunter when it comes to doing drugs. Yea, there have been other great writers, Bukowski, Burrows, Huxley, Hemmingway, I could go on, but nobody coined a phrase like Hunter S. Thompson. Nobody did it with as much finesse either. Somebody needs to pick up where he left off. I think you’re elected dude.                            Randy

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine-rite of passage documentary
Date: February 27, 2005 at 1:10:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/27/05 12:13:32 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:

Im trying to order the documentary but havent got a response back.
Anybody knows what is going on>?

The producer/director, Ben de Loenen, is currently in the US and will be
returning to Europe later this week.  I anticipate he will respond to orders then.
Additionally, there will be a paypal link on his page for payments soon.

http://www.lunartproductions.com/html/home.htm

Howard

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine freebase/caution
Date: February 27, 2005 at 1:05:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/27/05 5:36:17 AM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

pure curiosity:
is there a recipe of how to make freebase out of HCl? its easy to do
with cocaine HCl . does ibogaine behaves similar ? can freebase be
absorbed by the body as well as HCl, since its probably not water
soluble? please don´t get upset anyone, i won´t try to smoke it and i
don´t plan to flood the ghettos with crack ibogaine (LOL). its trivial
pursuit only. -ekki

Ekki and all,

Please note that ibogaine toxicity may be significantly increased by
administration other than oral. IV injection of ibogaine for instance is ten times
more toxic than that of oral administration.  Additionally significant biphasic
blood pressure responses may occur.  I believe that some research on smoked
ibogaine may have occurred in europe but, I do not have the results and suggest
that this may be an area of research dangerous to human subjects.

Any reports on smoked ibogaine would be appreciated.

Howard

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] new reports
Date: February 27, 2005 at 12:56:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Two new ibogaine reports are not available.

Udi Bastiaans thesis on the results of his study of long term ibogaine
patients and my own report on ibogaine forms, dose and dose regimens that was
originally presented at the NYC Ibogaine Forum earlier this month. Udi Bastiaans is
the grandson of Prof. doctor Jan Bastiaans who first conducted ibogaine
therapies in the Netherlands.  I want to also thank Eric Taub and Sara Glatt and
others for information they provided on dose regimens that are included in my
report. The Bastiaans’ report is in PDF format and my report is in PowerPoint.
Free readers for both PDF format and PowerPoint format are available as free
downloads from Microsoft and adobe.  If you need a free reader just go to
google.com and use the terms free adobe reader or free PowerPoint reader.

Both are available from either of the two web pages below.

http://www.ibogaine.org/whatsnew.html
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/whatsnew.html

Howard

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 27, 2005 at 12:51:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi donna
it is said that a bad or missing relationship with the same sex parent can cause peronality disorders, especially if happening in the age between the 16th and 32th month when the peronal i is said to develop. those disorders might lead to addictive behaviour (drugs, relationships, religion, sex etc.) later on.
i know some peoples life history that seem to proof this theory.

what is interesting to check out in this context is the psychology of human communication developed by watzlawick et al., especially the double-bind part between parents and children and treatment approaches like family- or behavioural therapie.

there are also some books that have a psychoanalytic perspective on borderline that focus on early childhood problems. the problem with this approach is that even if one knows why one has such problems it doesn´t mean they go away.

i actually believe ibogaine has some healing effects on personality disorders.
-ekki

Am 27.02.2005 um 13:55 schrieb AbbotAngel@aol.com:

In a message dated 19/02/2005 20:03:05 GMT Standard Time, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:

I have a friend who is a facilitator of Ibogaine and he told me that he found a relation beetwen addiction and a bad relation , at least for the male addict , with the father . What do you think ?

Hi Francis

Does your friend mean there could be a connection with male addicts who have had bad or abusive relationships with their fathers???? or maybe absent fathers????  I ask because a very good friend of mine addicted to heroin, his father walked out when he was very young and then he had an abusive step father, I have always said it has affected him deeply.

Love Donna

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine-rite of passage documentary
Date: February 27, 2005 at 12:12:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Im trying to order the documentary but havent got a response back.  Anybody knows what is going on>?
Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

Share a single photo or an entire slide show right inside your e-mail with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] I need your input, please
Date: February 27, 2005 at 9:47:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,

I’m doing a research, and need data, so I am asking all of you who had
Ibogaine experience to fill the questionnaire in the “Reserch” section
(Register your Ibogaine Experience with Sacrament of Transition) of the
Sacrament of Transition home page (http://sacrament.kibla.si/)

It only takes a couple of minutes for a single IBO experience, and some
more for multiple experiences ;-))

And, if you know someone with IBO experience who is not on this list,
please forward…

Thank you =)

Please don’t ask me what kind of research, because I can’t tell (not that
I don’t want, but knowing what I’m looking for could result in biased
answers..)

Marko

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 27, 2005 at 7:55:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 19/02/2005 20:03:05 GMT Standard Time, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:
I have a friend who is a facilitator of Ibogaine and he told me that he found a relation beetwen addiction and a bad relation , at least for the male addict , with the father . What do you think ?
Hi Francis

Does your friend mean there could be a connection with male addicts who have had bad or abusive relationships with their fathers???? or maybe absent fathers????  I ask because a very good friend of mine addicted to heroin, his father walked out when he was very young and then he had an abusive step father, I have always said it has affected him deeply.

Love Donna

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine freebase
Date: February 27, 2005 at 6:23:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki you have a good mind. That would solve the problem for people who become too sick to be able to eat the pills. Besides it would have to beat the shit outta having something stuck up your ass when your ripped on Ibogaine. Probably wouldn’t be good for people coming off of crack because it might be a trigger though.             Randy

From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re:[Ibogaine]Ibogaine freebase
Date: February 27, 2005 at 6:20:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dissolve HCl in water, then basify, then add np solvent to extract the
freebase, evap the solvent and you should have freebase.  I haven’t
tried it, but that works for basically all alkaloids…
Peace…
CE

pure curiosity:
is there a recipe of how to make freebase out of HCl? its easy to do
with cocaine HCl . does ibogaine behaves similar ? can freebase be
absorbed by the body as well as HCl, since its probably not water
soluble? please donīt get upset anyone, i wonīt try to smoke it and i
donīt plan to flood the ghettos with crack ibogaine (LOL). its trivial
pursuit only. -ekki
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone
Date: February 27, 2005 at 6:15:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, I was reading some old E mails I didn’t get to while I was gone, and came across yours about Hunter S. Thompson. Looks like he meant as much to you as he did to me. My older brother shoved Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas at me when I was 16 I think, and said, ” You have to read this, there’ll be a test later.” I was immediately hooked. I did the same thing you did, and found everything I could by Hunter, and read it. Twice. My son read all his stuff after seeing the movie. It never occurred to me to be a writer, but I sure used his philosophy about drugs in my quest to Rock out. His aura was with me every time I played a gig after I read his stuff. I saw the parallels between us, he’s from KY, I’m from KY, he’s into drugs, I’m into drugs, he’s into guns, I’m into guns, (I started hunting on the farm when I was 8), all before I knew who he was. I’ve never been the same since. Writers are a lot like musicians if you ask me. The great ones are just plain magical. Hunter S. Thompson is the Jimi Hendrix of writers. And Keith Richards aint got shit on Hunter when it comes to doing drugs. Yea, there have been other great writers, Bukowski, Burrows, Huxley, Hemmingway, I could go on, but nobody coined a phrase like Hunter S. Thompson. Nobody did it with as much finesse either. Somebody needs to pick up where he left off. I think you’re elected dude.                            Randy

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine freebase
Date: February 27, 2005 at 5:35:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

pure curiosity:
is there a recipe of how to make freebase out of HCl? its easy to do with cocaine HCl . does ibogaine behaves similar ? can freebase be absorbed by the body as well as HCl, since its probably not water soluble? please donīt get upset anyone, i wonīt try to smoke it and i donīt plan to flood the ghettos with crack ibogaine (LOL). its trivial pursuit only. -ekki

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] CHRONIC CANDY
Date: February 27, 2005 at 4:59:30 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

CHRONIC CANDYThey were at Lolapalooza and I hung out at the tent, being a writer for HT and all, I was told I should stop by and say hello, so V and I did. They’re nice guys, the Chronic folk, but I wasn’t personally overly fond of the lollipops that tasted like herb- I mean, they did taste like herb and I don’t particularly want my lollipops tasting like herb. Personally that is.
But more power to them.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Kay Lee
To: MTWT Of Interest
Cc: Drugwar Ibogaine List
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 6:49 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] CHRONIC CANDY

NEW AFRIKAN MILLENNIUM
23 FEBRUARY 2005

CHRONIC CANDY
By Admin., January 13, 2005

WILL IT EVER END?

http://www.guerrillafunk.com/thoughts/doc5482.html

Snoop Dog and reality-TV star Paris Hilton are endorsing a new weed-flavored candy that is stirring up controversy and generating criticism among New York City politicians.

Presently found in 43 stores across the Big Apple, CHRONIC CANDY, http://www.chroniccandy.com/main/index3.asp hemp-rooted lollipops and gumdrops promises that “Every lick is like taking a hit.” It’s quickly becoming top choice for local costumers with the munchies, while drawing criticism from politicians who feel the candy promotes drug use to the youth.

“How could we go into the market and create a product for children that encourages them to taste marijuana?” Councilwoman Margarita Lopez (D-Manhattan) exclaimed on WPIX-Channel 11, “What is the message? ‘Use drugs’, that is okay?”

While the weed sweets do not contain THC, the ingredient that intoxicates marijuana users, the candy comes in “nickel bags” and “20 sacks” like marijuana. It also provides flavors themed after its countless nicknames including “Chronic” and “Sticky Icky Skunk Buds.

Unlike the candy’s many protesters, Chronic Candy Founder Antonio Montana asserts that the sweets were never intended for kids.

“Give me a list of what we can do to keep these things out of kids’ hands, and I’ll do it,” Montana, 36, who began importing the candies from Switzerland four years ago, told Daily News. “I don’t think kids should be eating them. It’s an adult thing.”

Montana also suggested that retailers put an 18-and-older-only tag on the treats, but added that it’s to their discretion.

Queens store owner, David Abramowitz has already enforced an 18-and-older policy and shared that he isn’t shocked by the controversy surrounding the candy.

“Lopez is making all this noise. Look, I’m not out to corrupt kids,” Abramowitz, 62, claimed to Daily News. “It’s just for kicks.”

© 2005 Guerrilla Funk Recordings. All rights reserved.

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] love
Date: February 27, 2005 at 2:08:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Hannah,
Come here girl and give me a big hug.
Do you remember when Johnny Rotten was on Judge Judy?, it was a crack up.

I understand how your feeling,..I went through something very similar, breaking up
with a girl that was straight.I think I told you about it a few months ago.How does
that saying go?,

“This to shall pass”.

Jimi baby rocks. By the way Hannah,…your bigger than life.I can feel you
from way over here.

Shrooms,…I know that when I had them at Sara’s they did help big time,
however that was with the Iboga,..some days after. The shrooms seemed
to sweep up some of what the Iboga had left behind, and WOW what a great
trip,I laughed and laughed and laughed, it was very healing.They were
Columbian. Mmm  Mmm Mmm.

I am thinking of you and sending love your way.

love,
Jasen.
From: Hannah Clay
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 5:48 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols

Hi all!

Take my advice n listen to lotsa Sex Pistols n get rip roarin drunk!  Or am I showing my immaturity?  Or Britishness?  All I know is I’m still trying to get oevr being dumped for soemone else after 3yrs.  Its been 3 months now.  I reckon once he moves his stuff out this weekend I’ll just have to stay well away from him.  My bank balance says I have £200 but won’t let me have any and its Friday night, how craps that?!  I dunno why I’m writing this.  I read all your posts with love and they cheer me up and strengthen me but I feel just so bloody….human? next to you all.  My world is so tiny.  I’ve been doing the brown and the rock, I love snowballs, but now I have just have vodka and Sid to help me.  I’m sorry.  Dya think Shrooms can be used in any way like Ibo?  I have access to them!  Any advice on growing em would be greatly appreciated too.

I feel very small.

Keep tellin myself that ain’t nesseccarily a bad fing!

Love and saorry for babbling bollox.  I’m on a self-destruct streak!

Love Hannah xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I love Violent Femmes,  Blister in the sun-that cheers me up.

And ofcourse Jimi hendrix, Davidi Bowie in his Z.Stardust faze, erm…New Model army n Levellers but I guess they’re british.  Now listening to ’12 days of christmas punk’ by Sex pistols-werhay.

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] James
Date: February 26, 2005 at 10:01:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey James,

You go bro’, I loved the beach and still do.
The beach gave me energy,..it still does.

I felt like I wanted to drink it all up(ocean)
Actually I did drink quite a bit whilst being
dumped and pounded by the waves, I love
it.

Children,…wow,..the unconditional love
pure innocence,..to me they are mirrors
of who we truly are.

It reminds me of the Buddha with 10 babies
crawling all over him as he sits with his
most gorgeous smile.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: MrPure@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] James

dear randy,
your dead right, kids rock.(Chloe 6 and Mia 5)
my kids never appeared to me in my experience but when I came out of it I had a really guilty feeling about it.  It has been 4 weeks since I did the ibogaine and my life has just started feeling as if I’m back to normal.  that’s why I’m going to Aruba for a week to chill out and relax and swim in the ocean.
I will be back on line in a week.
peace to you all.
James

From: “Tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Thanks for Steve’s thoughts for pc
Date: February 26, 2005 at 9:16:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Steve

Well said, Steve!  Your position was higher ground for our eloquent
mindvoxians. They do share more with each other than they care to
admit. Making Dana scream doesn’t rate a complement to Peter, IMHO,
Dana’s work on behalf of ibo and drug freedom puts him way up into
elder statesman territory for our side.  But, he can probably handle
a rhetorical jab more than Peter, so your comparative worked.

Also, you wildly understated Herr Docktor Schweitzer’s appreciation
of the witch doctors in Africa.  He often referred to them as his
primary referral to local medical professionals for their own
people, and far better qualified than European academics to treat
disease in Africa. I bet he tried Ibo, given a chance and with his
scientific attitude. But again, the central point you made was a
respect for the fascinating history of knowledge and psychological
understandings within the native cultures there. Right on!

I haven’t figured out addiction as disease or freewill use. I’m glad
my addiction tendencies didn’t hit me when the heavier opiates and
today’s designer drugs were a social option.  Just getting through
some phases of overappreciating weed and cigarettes was damn tough
for me. As a Cancer, I got good at various escapes, and lost a few
years back there, I think. I’m sure that all of the list members
have their own unique experiences and stories behind these complex
issues and mnd-food preferences. Beyond a love for the sheer
wizardry of the ibogaine experience, I love that it is a precious
tool for a person to see their deep inner self.  More options and
tools for that work are basically a Good Thing, in my view. The rest
of our discussions are entertaining expressions of everyone’s unique
story.  I appreciate this whole group.

Attaboy Steve. Thanks for keeping the bigger issues in focus for us.

Sincerely,  Dr. Tom, Ibo clan member #074968

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From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] CHRONIC CANDY
Date: February 26, 2005 at 6:49:53 PM EST
To: “MTWT Of Interest” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Cc: “Drugwar Ibogaine List” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

NEW AFRIKAN MILLENNIUM
23 FEBRUARY 2005

CHRONIC CANDY
By Admin., January 13, 2005

WILL IT EVER END?

http://www.guerrillafunk.com/thoughts/doc5482.html

Snoop Dog and reality-TV star Paris Hilton are endorsing a new weed-flavored candy that is stirring up controversy and generating criticism among New York City politicians.

Presently found in 43 stores across the Big Apple, CHRONIC CANDY, http://www.chroniccandy.com/main/index3.asp hemp-rooted lollipops and gumdrops promises that “Every lick is like taking a hit.” It’s quickly becoming top choice for local costumers with the munchies, while drawing criticism from politicians who feel the candy promotes drug use to the youth.

“How could we go into the market and create a product for children that encourages them to taste marijuana?” Councilwoman Margarita Lopez (D-Manhattan) exclaimed on WPIX-Channel 11, “What is the message? ‘Use drugs’, that is okay?”

While the weed sweets do not contain THC, the ingredient that intoxicates marijuana users, the candy comes in “nickel bags” and “20 sacks” like marijuana. It also provides flavors themed after its countless nicknames including “Chronic” and “Sticky Icky Skunk Buds.

Unlike the candy’s many protesters, Chronic Candy Founder Antonio Montana asserts that the sweets were never intended for kids.

“Give me a list of what we can do to keep these things out of kids’ hands, and I’ll do it,” Montana, 36, who began importing the candies from Switzerland four years ago, told Daily News. “I don’t think kids should be eating them. It’s an adult thing.”

Montana also suggested that retailers put an 18-and-older-only tag on the treats, but added that it’s to their discretion.

Queens store owner, David Abramowitz has already enforced an 18-and-older policy and shared that he isn’t shocked by the controversy surrounding the candy.

“Lopez is making all this noise. Look, I’m not out to corrupt kids,” Abramowitz, 62, claimed to Daily News. “It’s just for kicks.”

© 2005 Guerrilla Funk Recordings. All rights reserved.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] sound of heroin
Date: February 26, 2005 at 6:18:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

kind of spooky.

only for nerds:
data derived from a photoacustic spectrum of heroin between 1100 and 900 cm^-1.
the formula is the same as used with the ibo sounds: lightspeed/wavelenght^-1/2^n where n is selected in a way to get it into the audible range, i think i took 35. i´m happy for other suggestions or correction.

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From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving
Date: February 26, 2005 at 5:17:07 PM EST
To: “Drugwar Ibogaine List” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: 26 Feb 2005
Source:  New Scientist
Contact: onlinenews@newscientist.com
Website: http://www.newscientist.com/
Webpage:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524881.400
*****************************************************
Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving

26 February 2005
From New Scientist Print Edition.

John Horgan

John Horgan is a freelance science writer based in Garrison, New York. His
latest book, Rational Mysticism (Mariner Books), was published in paperback
last year

JOHN HALPERN clearly remembers what made him change his mind about
psychedelic drugs. It was the early 1990s and the young medical student at a
hospital in Brooklyn, New York, was getting frustrated that he could not do
more to help the alcoholics and addicts in his care. He sounded off to an
older psychiatrist, who mentioned that LSD and related drugs had once been
considered promising treatments for addiction.

“I was so fascinated that I did all this research,” Halpern recalls. “I was
reading all these papers from the 60s and going, whoa, wait a minute! How
come nobody’s talking about this?”

More than a decade later, Halpern is now an associate director of substance
abuse research at Harvard University’s McLean Hospital and is at the
forefront of a revival of research into psychedelic medicine. He recently
received approval from the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to give
late-stage cancer patients the psychedelic drug MDMA, also known as ecstasy.
He is also laying the groundwork for testing LSD as a treatment for dreaded
super-migraines known as cluster headaches.

And Halpern is not alone. Clinical trials of psychedelic drugs are planned
or under way at numerous centres around the world for conditions ranging
from anxiety to alcoholism. It may not be long before doctors are legally
prescribing hallucinogens for the first time in decades. “There are
medicines here that have been overlooked, that are fundamentally valuable,”
says Halpern.

These developments are a remarkable turnaround. Scientists first became
interested in psychedelic drugs – also called hallucinogens because of their
profound effect on perception – after Albert Hofmann, a chemist working for
the Swiss pharmaceutical firm Sandoz, accidentally swallowed LSD in 1943.

Hofmann’s description of his experience, which he found both enchanting and
terrifying, spurred scientific interest in LSD as well as naturally
occurring compounds with similar effects: mescaline, the active ingredient
of the peyote cactus; psilocybin, found in magic mushrooms; and DMT, from
the Amazonian shamans’ brew ayahuasca.

At first, many scientists called these drugs “psychotomimetics” because
their effects appeared to mimic the symptoms of schizophrenia and other
mental illnesses. However, many users rhapsodised about the life-changing
insights they achieved during their experiences, so much so that in 1957,
British psychiatrist Humphry Osmond proposed that the compounds be renamed
“psychedelic”, from the Greek for “mind-revealing”. The term caught on, and
psychiatrists started experimenting with the drugs as treatments for mental
illness.

By the mid-1960s, more than 1000 peer-reviewed papers had been published
describing the treatment of more than 40,000 patients for schizophrenia,
depression, alcoholism and other disorders.

A prominent member of this movement was Harvard psychologist Timothy Leary,
who among other things tested whether psilocybin and LSD could be used to
treat alcoholism and rehabilitate convicts.

Although his studies were initially well received, Leary eventually lost his
reputation – and his job – after he began touting psychedelics as a hotline
to spiritual enlightenment. Leary’s antics helped trigger a backlash, and by
the late 1960s psychedelics had been outlawed in the US, Canada and Europe.

Unsurprisingly, clinical research ground to a halt, partly because obtaining
the necessary permits became much more difficult, but also because few
researchers were willing to risk their reputations studying demonised
substances.

But to some brave souls, psychedelic medicine never lost its allure. One of
them is Rick Doblin, who in 1986 founded the Multidisciplinary Association
for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) in Sarasota, Florida, and who earned a
doctorate from Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government after writing a
dissertation on the federal regulation of psychedelics.

For nearly 20 years MAPS has lobbied the FDA and other government agencies
to allow research on psychedelics to resume. It has also persuaded
scientists to pursue the work and raised funds to support them.

A similar body, the Heffter Research Institute in Santa Fe, New Mexico, was
founded in 1993 by scientists with an interest in hallucinogens.

In the past couple of years their efforts have begun to pay off. Doblin is
optimistic that psychedelic research is back for good, and this time it will
do things right. “This gives us the chance to show that we have learned our
lessons,” he says. Halpern, too, is anxious to lay to rest the ghost of
Leary.

“That man screwed it up for so many people,” he says.

With this in mind, Halpern says the first task for him and others is to
evaluate the safety of psychedelics. And they are up against an entrenched
orthodoxy: a 1971 editorial in The Journal of the American Medical
Association warned that repeated ingestion of psychedelics causes
personality deterioration. “Only a few of those who experience more than 50
‘trips’ are spared,” it warned.

So Halpern’s first big foray into psychedelic research was aimed at
risk-assessment. In the late 1990s he launched a study of members of the
Native American Church, who are permitted by US law to consume peyote.

Halpern examined 210 residents of a Navajo reservation in the south-west US,
who fell into three categories: church members who had taken peyote at least
100 times but had had little exposure to other drugs or alcohol; non-church
members who abstained from alcohol or drugs; and former alcoholics who had
been sober for at least three months.

Halpern tested the subjects’ IQ, memory, reading ability and other
functions. His interim results showed that church members had no cognitive
impairment compared with the abstainers, and scored significantly better
than recovering alcoholics. Church members also reported no “flashbacks” –
sudden recurrences of a psychedelic’s effects long after the initial trip.

Halpern believes this study, which he expects will be published soon, shows
that contrary to the 1971 editorial, peyote at least can be taken repeatedly
without adverse effects.

He is now conducting a similar assessment of MDMA. This drug is sometimes
called an “empathogen” because it heightens feelings of compassion and
reduces anxiety. Anecdotal reports suggest it has therapeutic potential, and
some psychiatrists used it alongside psychotherapy before it was outlawed in
1985.

However, anecdotal and scientific evidence have also linked MDMA with brain
damage, though the research is controversial.

Ecstasy impact

Judging the true impact of MDMA is complicated by the fact that users often
combine it with other drugs and alcohol. To get around this, Halpern
recruited a group of American mid-westerners who admitted taking MDMA but
said they shunned other substances. He separated them into “moderate” users,
who had consumed MDMA 22 to 50 times, and “heavy” users, who had taken it
more than 50 times.

Halpern recently reported in the journal Drug and Alcohol Dependence that,
compared with controls, heavy users displayed “significant deficits” in
mental processing speed and impulsivity. Moderate users, however, had no
major problems. Halpern believes this shows that MDMA’s benefits may
outweigh its risks for certain patients. And apparently the FDA and the
McLean Hospital agree, since both have approved Halpern’s plan to test MDMA
as an anti-anxiety drug for a dozen late-stage cancer patients.

Halpern still needs permission from the Drug Enforcement Administration, but
he expects to begin recruiting patients soon.

He is also interested in the potential benefits of the true hallucinogens.
In 1996, he reviewed almost 100 substance abuse trials involving LSD,
psilocybin, DMT and ibogaine, an extract of the African shrub Tabernanthe
iboga. Halpern found tentative evidence that the drugs can reduce addicts’
cravings during a post-trip “afterglow” lasting for a month or two.

Exactly how this happens is something of a mystery. A popular theory is that
the benefits stem from the drugs’ psychological effects, which include
profound insights and cathartic emotions, but Halpern suspects that there
may be a biochemical explanation too.

For now, however, Halpern isn’t planning to pursue addiction therapy. He is
more interested in another medical use for LSD and psilocybin: treating a
debilitating condition known as cluster headaches.

These attacks appear to be caused by swelling of blood vessels in the brain
and are worse than migraines. Sufferers say the pain exceeds that of passing
a kidney stone or giving birth without anaesthetics. They affect about 3 in
every 1000 people sporadically, and 1 in 10,000 chronically. “There’s a
tremendous potential need for this,” says Halpern, who investigated the
problem after being approached by a patient group.

Many patients get little or no relief from painkillers, but some claim that
small doses of LSD or psilocybin can alleviate the headaches and even
prevent them from occurring.

Halpern was intrigued; LSD is chemically related to ergot, a naturally
occurring compound that constricts blood vessels, and the derivatives
ergotamine and methysergide are commonly prescribed for migraines.

Halpern and his Harvard colleague Andrew Sewell are now gathering evidence
to persuade licensing officials – and themselves – that LSD and psilocybin
merit a clinical trial. Sewell has gathered more than 60 testimonials from
cluster headache sufferers who have treated themselves with LSD or
psilocybin.

Another member of the vanguard in the psychedelic revival is Charles Grob, a
psychiatrist at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles, California,
and co-founder of the Heffter Institute.

After years struggling to get permits, Grob says he is slowly moving forward
with a study into using psilocybin to reduce distress in terminal cancer
patients. He points out that studies done in the 1960s suggested that
psychedelics can help patients come to terms with their impending death.

So far Grob has treated three patients, but he hopes to enrol more subjects
shortly.

Grob has also led several investigations like Halpern’s peyote study, but
looking at ayahuasca, the DMT-rich shamanic brew. Ayahuasca often causes
nausea and diarrhoea, and its psychedelic effects can be terrifying, but
Amazonian shamans nonetheless prize it for its visionary properties.

Since 1987 it has been a legal sacrament for several churches in Brazil, the
largest of which is União Do Vegetal. UDV combines elements of Christianity
with nature worship, and claims 8000 members.

In 1996 a team led by Grob reported in the Journal of Nervous And Mental
Disease that UDV members who regularly took ayahuasca were on average
physiologically and psychologically healthier than a control group of
non-worshippers. The UDV followers also had more receptors for the
neurotransmitter serotonin, which has been linked to lower rates of
depression and other disorders.

Many of the UDV members told the scientists that ayahuasca had helped them
overcome alcoholism, drug addiction and other self-destructive behaviours.

More recently, Grob has found that adolescents who grew up participating in
ayahuasca ceremonies showed no ill effects and were less likely to engage in
crime and substance abuse than members of a control group. Of course, Grob
acknowledges that they could be benefiting from the social effects of
membership in a church as well as the effects of ayahuasca itself. Grob
plans to publish these results this year.

Several other scientists are quietly pursuing psychedelic research. Since
2001, psychiatrist Francisco Moreno of the University of Arizona in Tucson
has been testing psilocybin as a treatment for obsessive-compulsive
disorder.

Psychotherapy and antidepressants such as Prozac help many patients, but
some have such severe symptoms and are so resistant to treatment that they
turn to electroshock therapy and even brain surgery.

As with the work on cluster headaches, Moreno’s study was motivated by
reports from people with OCD that psilocybin relieves their symptoms.

So far, Moreno has given both sub-psychedelic and psychedelic doses of pure
psilocybin to nine treatment-resistant OCD subjects, in a total of 29
therapy sessions. His preliminary findings suggest firstly that it is safe
to ingest psilocybin, which was a primary concern of the trial. Beyond that,
Moreno calls his results “promising”, but won’t discuss them further, since
he plans to submit a paper to a peer-reviewed journal this year.

Meanwhile in Charleston, South Carolina, physician Michael Mithoefer is
carrying out a MAPS-sponsored clinical trial of MDMA as a treatment for
post-traumatic stress disorder.

PTSD affects up to 20 per cent of people who experience a traumatic event,
and involves distressing symptoms such as nightmares and panic attacks.
Conventional treatments typically consist of cognitive therapy and
antidepressants, but many patients don’t respond to these.

In the past year Mithoefer has given “MDMA-assisted” psychotherapy to six
treatment-resistant patients, all traumatised by violent crimes; he plans to
treat 20 patients in all.

The longest-running psychedelic therapy programme started almost 20 years
ago in Russia. Evgeny Krupitsky, a psychiatrist who heads a substance-abuse
clinic in St Petersburg, has treated more than 300 alcoholics and about 200
heroin addicts with ketamine.

Used primarily in veterinary medicine, ketamine is an anaesthetic that can
trigger an extremely disorienting hallucinogenic episode lasting an hour or
so. Krupitsky’s subjects often emerge from their sessions filled with
revulsion for their past lives and determined to change.

The therapists encourage these feelings with tricks such as forcing the
subjects to sniff a bottle of vodka at the peak of their session; the
patients’ disgust often persists long after the ketamine’s effects have worn
off.

In one of Krupitsky’s studies, 73 out of 111 alcoholics stayed dry for at
least a year after their session, compared with 24 per cent of those in a
control group. Yet his programme, which was funded by MAPS and the Heffter
Institute, was recently shut down because the Russian government tightened
restrictions on ketamine. Although Krupitsky says he and his colleagues “are
in the process of getting permission to continue”, it may be several years
before research resumes.

Although disappointed by this setback, Doblin is encouraged by developments
elsewhere. He is lobbying officials in Spain and Israel to approve studies
of MDMA for PTSD, and is raising funds for a substance-abuse trial of
ibogaine outside the US together with the Heffter Institute.

MAPS has also supported Frans Vollenweider, a psychiatrist at the University
of Zurich in Switzerland, who has done basic research on the physiological
effects of psilocybin and MDMA, and hopes to begin clinical research soon.

Doblin’s primary goal is to see psychedelics legally recognised as
medicines. But he also hopes that someday healthy people may take these
substances for psychological or spiritual purposes, as members of the Native
American Church and União Do Vegetal do, and as he did in his youth.

After all, drugs such as Prozac and Viagra are already prescribed not just
to heal the ill but also to enhance the lives of the healthy.

It is still an uphill struggle. Government funds for psychedelic studies are
hard to come by, and drug companies have shown absolutely no interest in
supporting the research. But there are signs that the wind is changing.

Although psychedelics are still classified in the US as schedule-1 drugs,
and so are banned for all non-research purposes, in November a US Federal
Appeals Court in Colorado ruled that a branch of the UDV based in Santa Fe,
New Mexico, could import ayahuasca for use in ceremonies.

Among the research findings cited in the court decision were Grob’s studies
showing no ill effects from ayahuasca.

The Department of Justice is appealing the decision, but if the Supreme
Court denies the appeal, UDV members in the US will be able to ingest
ayahuasca legally.

Maybe, just maybe, after more than 30 years in the wilderness, this
powerful, misunderstood but potentially mind-healing class of drugs is ready
to be rehabilitated.

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From: MrPure@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] James
Date: February 26, 2005 at 4:20:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dear randy,
your dead right, kids rock.(Chloe 6 and Mia 5)
my kids never appeared to me in my experience but when I came out of it I had a really guilty feeling about it.  It has been 4 weeks since I did the ibogaine and my life has just started feeling as if I’m back to normal.  that’s why I’m going to Aruba for a week to chill out and relax and swim in the ocean.
I will be back on line in a week.
peace to you all.
James

From: MrPure@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mr. Pure
Date: February 26, 2005 at 4:13:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi there Julie,
just a quick note, thanks for the reply.
off to Aruba in the morning, so I shall email you off list when I get home.
would love to hear about your experience.
peace
James.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: February 26, 2005 at 4:02:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Steven A. wrote:

Preston suggested that you become hooked, which I think is a stupid idea in
many ways. First off Preston, it’s not cool to get someone hooked on dope.<

LOL, no Steven, to get technical, what I wrote was:

Peter, I agree with you on so much, but on that one particular issue, I kinda agree
with those who’ve suggested you actually try out a habit- get yourself
“strung out” on some kind of opiate, and I don’t mean give yourself a chippy
but rather a full blown habit, and see what sort of effort it might take
even for you to break it. It’s not merely getting through a “few days of
flu” or however it was you phrased it, but rather a whole mess of physical
AND psychological issues involved.<

I’m not seriously suggesting that Peter get himself hooked on opiates, only trying to point out that it’s not just a black and white issue, that it’s not simply a matter of “tapering off” and quitting for many of us who found ourselves strung out. I wouldn’t wish nor seriously suggest being “strung out” on anyone under today’s prohibition policies.
I’m merely trying to make a point.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 1:17 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc

Peter,

First off thanks for spending your time on the list and sharing your ideas. I agree with much of what you say in regards to drug use, prohibition, and society’s demonization of drug users being harmful. Any man who can make Dana scream, I respect.

The funny thing is you guys have a little bit in common. I have a feeling neither of you are wrong much. You both see things in black and white. Peter has the advantage of having helped create some of the most amazingly beneficial drug policy in existence, being smarter and not crazy. With Peter, there is that old saying ‘too smart for your own pants.’ Dana wrote his book about the cure for addiction. and runs ‘cures-not-wars.’ Cure this, cure that.

Peter, you felt free to advise Preston on V’s difficulty with the law for serving liquor to a minor? You know the laws of the NY state alcohol and beverage commission? Wow.

Perhaps you need to paint your argument in such broad strokes in order to raise the discussion and get people to think outside of the constructed norms.

Just for a minute, I would love for you to consider some of your positions. Never wrong? Tapering off and going cold turkey is the best way to stop? It works for some but not all. Saying it’s the best way is no different than a twelve stepper or an ibo person saying their way is the best way. Finding reliable data on the efficacy of different treatment modalities is close to impossible. What’s wrong with a drug user having options in helping to quit? Ibo helps some. Cold turkey works for some. Stanton Peele and you are probably right in that highest efficacy in stopping use is for those who just plain stop, outgrow it. What about those who can’t stop no matter how much they want to? Rarely does someone try ibo as a the first option. Why can’t you at least acknowledge that some people have been helped by ibo?

Drug use is often times a reaction to underlying pain, for some ibo helps deal with that underlying pain and correct the brain chemistry in such a way that the need for use is diminished. Why not use it in conjunction with cognitive treatments and behavior change?

For years I’ve struggled with the disease concept of addiction. I generally don’t like it, but what if some of it is true? What if there is some something to what neurologists say with their fancy scans?

Science has never been close to addiction work, yet there is some good science with ibo. As much as we share with them as a species, rats don’t lie. The tests with rats had amazing results. The analogue 18-mc works excellent in rats and does not appear to have the psychedelic properties.

There might be truth that there is a placebo effect with ibo and specifically with people having visionary experiences showing them the way. That is not what gives ibo it’s anti-addictive properties. I think people overstate the psychedelic part of ibo. People think they are related because they happen at the same time. But hey, if it helps. The trip is all over the place. It is a harsh time. People have been looking for god in a plant for a long time. Just give me that old time religion. no new time affliction.

Preston suggested that you become hooked, which I think is a stupid idea in many ways. First off Preston, it’s not cool to get someone hooked on dope. More importantly, if someone like Nick or Peter hasn’t become an addict yet, then forget it. It would be forced and not representative of most addicts. Most people who take dope hate it and never want to take it again, others for the first time feel normal. Some like it, some don’t.

Why do some people become addicted and others not? It would suggest some brain chemistry at work.

I’ve noticed that many long term drug users use because it makes them feel normal, it’s a way of dealing. Many have ADD. Many suffered childhood abuse. If you where fucked (over) as a kid, the brain didn’t form right. Drugs make it feel right. Years of drug use does effect your dopamine levels. Stopping makes it really bad. No fun. I tried many times to stop before ibo, never with any lasting success. Ibo did help me. Ibo did change my neuro chemistry in such a way that I felt “normal.” What’s so fucking wrong with that?

If you want to talk about a cult, go to an AA meeting sometime in America. Here we have very little in choice in treatment.

Some drug users do grow out of use, some don’t. OK you’ve made up your mind to stop. What if tapering off does not work, yet you still want to stop? What’s wrong with a drug user having a few options in stopping? Choice is an awesome thing.

Some things you wrote I wanted to comment on:
“Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has created its usefulness: prohibition.

For me it is just another ‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and within a theoretical NIDA govererend dominance of pharmacological understanding of intense drug use.”

You are not impressed with long history of miracle cures? Morphine for alcoholism, heroin for morphine addiction don’t impress you?

Ibo has been around longer than prohibition as has harmful drug use. It is not only prohibition which causes some drug use to be harmful. Drugs are not evil, it’s some people’s use patterns that can be harmful. If ibo were around in the US before the opiate prohibition, I’m sure some people would have benefited then.

The African Nganga’s have been using ibo for a long time. Drug abuse is one of the conditions they treat. It’s a poor country with few hospitals. The ‘witch doctors’ use ibo and a plethora of other plants to treat sickness. Even Schweitzer had a toleration if not a slight respect for the witch doctors

It’s not a miracle compound, it’s a tool. NIDA didn’t like it, remember? 18-mc either. What’s wrong with wanting to fix or heel ones mind? What’s wrong with having a few tools at the disposal of a drug user wishing to stop? Slamming your hand with a hammer can be a learning experience, so can ibo be a learning experience.

As far as cultural tourism: What? Your favorite tanning spot in the Greek isles get spoiled? A bunched of pasty Northerners looking for sunshine ruined it all? The great city of Amsterdam, home of Rembrandt and the Dutch East Indies Co having turned into the Tijuana of Europe upsets you?

What are the options? The cat is out of the bag as far as globalization. In Gabon there was recently a National Park system created which is (as a %) the second largest in the world. If tourists do not go, it will not stay protected. A poor country will sell it’s resources. The oil companies, the Chinese searching for wood are better than a few people interested in studying local traditions? Poor countries need capital, as sad as it is. I’m less of an asshole than the oil companies and spread money out more equitably.

There is a long history of Europeans and Americans taking from Gabon and Africa and not giving back. Slaves, rubber, diamonds, oil, iboga. Why not go and spend money there on local traditions, helping feed some people? How many of the people making money off of ibo are giving any back?

If you want to stop the destruction of the world, stop using oil for heat, electricity, any fosil fuels for transportation, pay no taxes, make your own clothes and grow your own food. Tough to do.

What I learned in Gabon was not so much from the iboga as the people and watching the society at work. Society’s based on village model can teach us. Seeing how another culture deals with sickness was fascinating. They do not believe in microbes, that sickness is partly a result of trouble with social relations. What is also interesting is that they would not use what they consider a sacred root for a detox. The would make you clean up first, then do it.

I wish ibogaine, 18-mc and nor-ibogaine were available for addicts the world over and for people wanting a spiritual experience to go Gabon.

A question for you: do you think there is a Darwinian reason for drug use? Why do some humans like to get fucked up?

So, what’s your story? How did you become the semiotic drug expert who hates drug experts?

Thanks for the work you have done with drug use.

Take care,
Steve. Ibo clan member #341268.

Sara: Go for fucks sake.

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and Near Death Experience : NDE
Date: February 26, 2005 at 3:48:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When i had my experience i found my self in a place where there was no begening no end everything was dying and being reborn.  There were two tubes one going up the other down and millions of souls flowing in and out of them.  I must have made that leap thousands of times –it was fantastic–and whats more important i knew i was there before and now i know i will be there again –cant wait:]

Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and Near Death Experience : NDE Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:18:01 -0500 On this link on music and Ibogaine; http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articletoshow=63&language=en The author believe that he had a near death experience. The spiritual awakening and the beliefs change made by a lot of people who took Ibogaine is actualy, very similar to the changes, life review, made by people who went throught an NDE. For further reading see: http://www.nderf.org/purpose_lifereview.htm There is something out there ?/! Love and peace Francis —– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan/DONNA! You got support over here Angel. Thinking of ya. love, Jasen. HI Hannah Are you still around I plan to start my detox friday, and I was wondering (I know you are really busy) but it would really help if I could talk to you because you have been there, I dont have any support here really. I think i will email you off list…………

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Peter Haaf!
Date: February 26, 2005 at 1:48:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Peter,

I’m on Subutex too and hope to do Ibogaine soon.  When did you stop using
your Sub-did you have to leave a certain number of hours or days before you
ingested the Ibo?

Thanks in advance.

I’m also on Effexor XR 150mg a day, my antidepressant.  Does anyone know if
I’d have to stop that before too and if so how long before?  I get sick if
I’m without it more than 2days so I’d have to try and slowly reduce it in
advance if I need it out of my system before I ingested the Ibo.

Thanks again,
much love,
Hannah x

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Haaf” <peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.

Hi Steve,

just had my treeatment, at my home place in germany. It was done by
Brian, a remarkable man. Why don`t you
travel to Prague, book a hotel room and have your treatment done in
europe, where no legal problems can araise ?

I was on 4mg Subutex the last week before the treatment (8mg before) and
now i have no need, no wish to take anything
also i have very little body problems, feels like a floo, nothing
serious, nothing to worry about. My mind does not bring
the two things together. I simply feel wonderful, born again.

Peter

Jasen Chamoun schrieb:

Hey Steve,

Your excited are you,..I understand,.I am still excited. 🙂
I did my treatment in Holland, Amsterdam. All I can say
is  WOW.

I took Iboga which is the whole plant extract,..and took this
extract with a remarkable woman called Sara.

I hear Ibogaine is also great.

Sara is in Amsterdam,..her basic treatment is 1500 Euro.
It is done in a family environment, which for me was
wholesome and healing.

The price includes home cooked meals and accommodation.
Sara even picks you up from the airport,you are very well
looked after. Sara is a Shaman healer.

The Iboga took away a lot of the underlying reasons to
be anesthetised, it worked beautifully for me.

The first few days of taking iboga I had no withdrawals,
then I started to get up to 15% withdrawals,..however they
were shallow,..not annoying me on an emotional or soul
level. Like I had the flu and new it would pass.

As the saying goes,”this too shall pass”

I was also on Methadone,..which takes longer
to come off.

The Iboga filled me with love untill I overflowed, it
showed me many things,..confirmed things I felt
to be true,..and also showed me situations where I thought I
was so right,..when I was so so wrong.

There are many beautiful people on this list that will assist
you,..if they could they would reach inside you and pull out
all the hurt, blockages and clear your addiction.

Iboga did this for me,.allot of beautiful people put there
hands inside me and pulled out all the sh*t,..90% of it.

I believe the Iboga doesn’t take it all away for a reason,
it leaves a little behind,..I believe,..so you have something
strong to rise up from,..like the yin changing to the yang.

I don’t know about the treatment you speak off, however
I have tried many and this is the only one that has worked for me.

If we talk on the list,it may help others that are thinking of doing
this treatment.
I am excited Steve.
with love.Jasen.

—– Original Message —–
*From:* stowe01@comcast.net <mailto:stowe01@comcast.net>
*To:* ibogaine@mindvox.com <mailto:ibogaine@mindvox.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:28 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.

Jason,

Thanks so much!!! You have to know how excited that I am
getting right now with all this positive feedback. I really want
off this stuff. Even though I believe that I actually use for the
next year without trouble. I dont care. I can easily afford my
habit which is about $100 a day. I am not a veteran drug guy. I
never even tried a drug until 3 years ago and I was 37. Most
people that I read about has had this problrm for years. But I
recognize it has to stop NOW!!! Please tell me as much as you can
about where you did it? How was it? How much did it cost? Did you
have any Withdraws during it? After it? Are you Struggling
now? Jusy anything that you can help me. GOD will bless you for
helping people and I promise I am going to help people. I have
access to money to help promote this more if it helps me the way
that it has you. By the way is this definitely the best way .Is
the Anesthnesia Rapid detox better or worse or what. I know I am
asking alot but if you dont mind I would love your number so that
we could talk(I am not a stalker just very excited) or I can give
you mine.  Just let me know .

With Love,

Steve

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From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: February 26, 2005 at 1:17:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter,

First off thanks for spending your time on the list and sharing your ideas. I agree with much of what you say in regards to drug use, prohibition, and society’s demonization of drug users being harmful. Any man who can make Dana scream, I respect.

The funny thing is you guys have a little bit in common. I have a feeling neither of you are wrong much. You both see things in black and white. Peter has the advantage of having helped create some of the most amazingly beneficial drug policy in existence, being smarter and not crazy. With Peter, there is that old saying ‘too smart for your own pants.’ Dana wrote his book about the cure for addiction
and runs ‘cures-not-wars.’ Cure this, cure that.

Peter, you felt free to advise Preston on V’s difficulty with the law for serving liquor to a minor? You know the laws of the NY state alcohol and beverage commission? Wow.

Perhaps you need to paint your argument in such broad strokes in order to raise the discussion and get people to think outside of the constructed norms.

Just for a minute, I would love for you to consider some of your positions. Never wrong? Tapering off and going cold turkey is the best way to stop? It works for some but not all. Saying it’s the best way is no different than a twelve stepper or an ibo person saying their way is the best way. Finding reliable data on the efficacy of different treatment modalities is close to impossible. What’s wrong with a drug user having options in helping to quit? Ibo helps some. Cold turkey works for some. Stanton Peele and you are probably right in that highest efficacy in stopping use is for those who just plain stop, outgrow it. What about those who can’t stop no matter how much they want to? Rarely does someone try ibo as a the first option. Why can’t you at least acknowledge that some people have been helped by ibo?

Drug use is often times a reaction to underlying pain, for some ibo helps deal with that underlying pain and correct the brain chemistry in such a way that the need for use is diminished. Why not use it in conjunction with cognitive treatments and behavior change?

For years I’ve struggled with the disease concept of addiction. I generally don’t like it, but what if some of it is true? What if there is some something to what neurologists say with their fancy scans?

Science has never been close to addiction work, yet there is some good science with ibo. As much as we share with them as a species, rats don’t lie. The tests with rats had amazing results. The analogue 18-mc works excellent in rats and does not appear to have the psychedelic properties.

There might be truth that there is a placebo effect with ibo and specifically with people having visionary experiences showing them the way. That is not what gives ibo it’s anti-addictive properties. I think people overstate the psychedelic part of ibo. People think they are related because they happen at the same time. But hey, if it helps
The trip is all over the place. It is a harsh time. People have been looking for god in a plant for a long time. Just give me that old time religion
no new time affliction.

Preston suggested that you become hooked, which I think is a stupid idea in many ways. First off Preston, it’s not cool to get someone hooked on dope. More importantly, if someone like Nick or Peter hasn’t become an addict yet, then forget it. It would be forced and not representative of most addicts. Most people who take dope hate it and never want to take it again, others for the first time feel normal. Some like it, some don’t.

Why do some people become addicted and others not? It would suggest some brain chemistry at work.

I’ve noticed that many long term drug users use because it makes them feel normal, it’s a way of dealing. Many have ADD. Many suffered childhood abuse. If you where fucked (over) as a kid, the brain didn’t form right. Drugs make it feel right. Years of drug use does effect your dopamine levels. Stopping makes it really bad. No fun. I tried many times to stop before ibo, never with any lasting success. Ibo did help me. Ibo did change my neuro chemistry in such a way that I felt “normal.” What’s so fucking wrong with that?

If you want to talk about a cult, go to an AA meeting sometime in America. Here we have very little in choice in treatment.

Some drug users do grow out of use, some don’t. OK you’ve made up your mind to stop. What if tapering off does not work, yet you still want to stop? What’s wrong with a drug user having a few options in stopping? Choice is an awesome thing.

Some things you wrote I wanted to comment on:
“Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has created its usefulness: prohibition.

For me it is just another ‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and within a theoretical NIDA govererend dominance of pharmacological understanding of intense drug use.”

You are not impressed with long history of miracle cures? Morphine for alcoholism, heroin for morphine addiction don’t impress you?

Ibo has been around longer than prohibition as has harmful drug use. It is not only prohibition which causes some drug use to be harmful. Drugs are not evil, it’s some people’s use patterns that can be harmful. If ibo were around in the US before the opiate prohibition, I’m sure some people would have benefited then.

The African Nganga’s have been using ibo for a long time. Drug abuse is one of the conditions they treat. It’s a poor country with few hospitals. The ‘witch doctors’ use ibo and a plethora of other plants to treat sickness. Even Schweitzer had a toleration if not a slight respect for the witch doctors

It’s not a miracle compound, it’s a tool. NIDA didn’t like it, remember? 18-mc either. What’s wrong with wanting to fix or heel ones mind? What’s wrong with having a few tools at the disposal of a drug user wishing to stop? Slamming your hand with a hammer can be a learning experience, so can ibo be a learning experience.

As far as cultural tourism: What? Your favorite tanning spot in the Greek isles get spoiled? A bunched of pasty Northerners looking for sunshine ruined it all? The great city of Amsterdam, home of Rembrandt and the Dutch East Indies Co having turned into the Tijuana of Europe upsets you?

What are the options? The cat is out of the bag as far as globalization. In Gabon there was recently a National Park system created which is (as a %) the second largest in the world. If tourists do not go, it will not stay protected. A poor country will sell it’s resources. The oil companies, the Chinese searching for wood are better than a few people interested in studying local traditions? Poor countries need capital, as sad as it is. I’m less of an asshole than the oil companies and spread money out more equitably.

There is a long history of Europeans and Americans taking from Gabon and Africa and not giving back. Slaves, rubber, diamonds, oil, iboga. Why not go and spend money there on local traditions, helping feed some people? How many of the people making money off of ibo are giving any back?

If you want to stop the destruction of the world, stop using oil for heat, electricity, any fosil fuels for transportation, pay no taxes, make your own clothes and grow your own food. Tough to do.

What I learned in Gabon was not so much from the iboga as the people and watching the society at work. Society’s based on village model can teach us. Seeing how another culture deals with sickness was fascinating. They do not believe in microbes, that sickness is partly a result of trouble with social relations. What is also interesting is that they would not use what they consider a sacred root for a detox. The would make you clean up first, then do it.

I wish ibogaine, 18-mc and nor-ibogaine were available for addicts the world over and for people wanting a spiritual experience to go Gabon.

A question for you: do you think there is a Darwinian reason for drug use? Why do some humans like to get fucked up?

So, what’s your story? How did you become the semiotic drug expert who hates drug experts?

Thanks for the work you have done with drug use.

Take care,
Steve. Ibo clan member #341268.

Sara: Go for fucks sake.

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and Near Death Experience : NDE
Date: February 26, 2005 at 1:18:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On this link on music and Ibogaine;
http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articletoshow=63&language=en

The author  believe that he had a near death experience. The spiritual awakening and the beliefs change made by a lot of people who took Ibogaine is actualy, very similar to the changes, life review,  made by people who went throught an NDE.
For further reading see:
http://www.nderf.org/purpose_lifereview.htm

There is something out there ?/!

Love and peace
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: Jasen Chamoun
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan/DONNA!

You got support over here Angel.
Thinking of ya.
love,
Jasen.

 

HI Hannah
Are you still around I plan to start my detox friday, and I was wondering (I know you are really busy) but it would really help if I could talk to you because you have been there, I dont have any support here really.  I think i will email you off list…………

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] prayer to protect planet’s light workers
Date: February 26, 2005 at 1:07:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This meditation is from http://www.daykeeperjournal.com/crystal.shtml
and was for the lead-up to Wednesday’s full moon.  Still apropos.

Love from nyc, Rachel

Full Moon in Virgo, February 2005

by Crystal Pomeroy

These times are marked by the sharp contrast between the government’s
talk about security and the threats that those same powers make
against the security of life on this planet and of those who choose to
serve collective interests specifically.

Submerged in a global atmosphere and standing before a planetary
future that seem anything less than secure from an earthly angle, what
can we as individuals do to guarantee the well-being of future
generations and especially of those who are working for the common
good, in spite of an imperialist agenda to the contrary? The recent
court decision against reporters’ right to protect their sources
brings the issues related to this Full Moon to the fore. Whether or
not one agrees with the reporting style of the journalists involved,
this news underscores the neo-McCarthy climate prevailing in their
milieu.

The Sabian symbol relating to this Full Moon reminds us of the
importance of the emotional commitment of the “people at large” to
those individuals whose lives are committed to the good of all
concerned. As we direct our emotional support, catalyzing its
alchemical capacity in prayers of power, we build a bridge which
permits multiple crossings: sending activist leaders and other public
servers the support and protection they deserve, and opening to
receive the grace that is available to each of us as we strive to be
responsible, proactive members of global community during these
powerful times of change.
Call on the angel of protection

If you enjoy lighting candles to honor Luna, white and pale blue are
excellent to enforce protection. Bless the world and whomever you wish
to protect, especially those who work in service, by placing their
images, names, or even references within reach of the candlelight.

These may include anyone in any walk of life who is making an extra
effort to keep the flame of goodness burning during these crucial
times. Some examples: “all honest reporters”, “lawyers and judges
working to protect the planet”, “true spiritual leaders and seekers”,
“children who have come to heal”, “Red Cross workers”, “librarians”,
or other such groups or individuals that may seem to need special
support at this time. Call on the Angel of Protection to guard them,
to guard all of us, keeping us centered in true, spiritually based
security multiplying the force of our prayers at this lunation.
Meditation to bless and protect global light workers

Repeat the following affirmations and any compatible thoughts that
surface as you do so, aloud with calm and complete attention:

Those people who are working to serve the greater good are not
alone or without effective assistance and protection. The Divine
Helper is with them, supporting them in every way that’s necessary to
insure their success and complete well being. The Divine Helper
fortifies them, inspires them, facilitating connections, public
knowledge and support. The Divine Helper never leaves their side. No
circumstance or influence of the past or present can keep the Divine
Helper from implementing the divine design for good on this planet and
in the lives of those working on its behalf.

(Say the next words slowly, with your attention on the heart, as
you think of those brave and generous individuals who are making
important contributions to protect and increase Earth and her species
at this time. You may start by directing it towards someone in
particular who comes to mind, then extend it to all such light
workers:)

My love and gratitude for the efforts of all planetary servers
joins the love of many others around the world, the living lattice of
our affection for you is a protective, supportive web that encourages
and supports you to continue in your work successfully now.

If you do this prayer or make any conscious efforts on behalf of the
collective good, you are also a light worker, and it would be great
for you to repeat the entire meditation in the first person (for “us”,
instead of “you”).

Go through the above exercise at least five times, slowly and aloud,
before, during and after this Full Moon is exact on February 23. Those
who continue repeating it at least three times daily until the next
New Moon (on March 10) can be assured they are doing the planet a
great service, and expect to see encouraging outcomes in the news
and/or in other signs, as effective prayer always brings forth
results, all the more so when its done by the light of the Moon.

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I’m clean!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: February 26, 2005 at 1:04:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Congratulations, Shelley,

How was your experience?  Was it different than the
other times?

Cheers,
Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mr. Pure
Date: February 26, 2005 at 12:56:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie, I for one never get bored reading about the holideck. Gives me the feeling of being there again.            Randy

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m clean!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: February 26, 2005 at 12:55:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Welcome to the disfunctional family of eboga….wish you all the best….stay clean

Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m clean!!!!!!!!!!! Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:17:55 -0800 (PST) Hey there list! Thouhgt I had posted yesterday ,but I dont see it today, so if in fact it is a repeat, i aplogise. I did my (4th) ibogaine detox one week ago today. It was real neat, due to circumstance ,we began with the gradual protocol rahter than the so well known flood, me & my provider decided to experiment ,as ive had 3 aha experiences previously & just continued with the gradual approach. It still became pretty intense for a couple of hours ,with vomit & all the ibogaine glory. But basically He gave me more ibogaine when I had pain or other s/s of withdrawal. In truth I think it worked better for me this time. I am so thrilled to be clean again. I have decided to relocate, I have begun sessions with a therapist & a group ,and am ready to make the changes I need to stay clean this time!Well ,I’ll write more later,love shell Sara Glatt <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Hi Randy, Talk, Do what you got to do, some need after care and some just know that they want to stay alive and find their family worth it Some need someone to tell them when they are good or bad, just like kids, they need authority to tell them you must do and be like… Otherwise you are not …. and no Candy today. It is good that you can read between the lines. Take care, Sara ——————————— Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] Verzonden: donderdag 24 februari 2005 21:14 Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List Steve, you make some valid points, but at the risk of sounding defensive I have to respond to some of them. If you have been reading the list for so long you would know that I wouldn’t shut up about aftercare for a while. That was the biggest thing that was agreed upon at the conference. At least that’s my take on it. I don’t remember calling Ibogaine a one shot cure either. I apologize if I implied that. That is erroneous information. If I thought that you were really interested I would tell you the stats that were tossed about for Ibogaine and aftercare. The successes rate goes way up with aftercare. No one is saying it isn’t as important as the Ibogaine itself. Aftercare may well be more important. Whatever. Seems like I heard that about how long I’ve been clean at AA meetings too. You’ve been brainwashed by what AA/NA you checked out. Maybe a booster will help. Seems like that you were saying a lot of the same stuff that I am saying last year before you went to Africa. (Thanx for being nice to my mother by the way.) Yea, I’m the new kid so kick me for being enthusiastic. Maybe one day I’ll be an “old timer” like you. I’ll “stick with the winners” and “do the right thing” “meeting mak…………..see you got me thinkin’ I’m at an AA meeting again. I guess there are things about my personality that some people don’t like. That’s on them. I’m trying in my own way to help other people that want it, with addiction. I’m doing more than ranting on this list. Awareness is growing in Kentucky where there is a huge problem with Oxy’s. I’m seeing to it. Every where I go I talk to counselors and doctors who seem very interested because they see the change in me. Trust me, I know a lot of doctors and counselors. Right now all I can do is talk, and that is what I’m doing. Not very many addicts in KY are really into the new age twist on things that gets bantered about here. Some, but not very many. They are reading this list too. Who’s going to relate to people like that. You? I’ve played music loudly all of my life. I’ll do the same for Ibogaine. We all use the information that we have to get by in life. Lighten Up Beavis. Randy

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] James
Date: February 26, 2005 at 12:44:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

James, my son was in my journey the whole time. He would float by smiling with a halo around his head. I still get teary eyed thinking about it. Children make the world a better place to be in. Rock on dude.                     Randy

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mr. Pure
Date: February 26, 2005 at 12:38:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi James,

Howz it goin’?  My experience was nearly 4.5 months
ago, and overall I would say ‘YES’, it was positive.
I used it to come off methadone/morphine.

I don’t want to bore the other members by
recapitulating what I have already said, but if you
would like to chat, feel free to email me off list…

Julie  ms_iboga@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: MrPure@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mr. Pure
Date: February 26, 2005 at 12:06:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dear Julie,
thanks for your email, its very comforting to get emails from people that send positive karma, thank you.
to hear all the stories and read the list, is one of my daily activities but it is only recently that I have start talking in this forum of “the list.”
when was your experience?  was it positive?  hope I’m not being to intrusive!
I love to hear peoples experiences positive or negative, although it upsets me that this does not work for everyone.
must dash, the kids are pulling at my coattails to go ice skating.(they are my lifeline…!)
hope this email finds you well,
peace,
James.

From: MrPure@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] James
Date: February 26, 2005 at 11:57:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks for the email Randy, very comforting to read the list each day,  it urks me to read negative responses but I guess that just makes me all the more stronger.
for example today has been a bad day for me, but I’m hanging with my kids and they keep me in reality.  most important of all they put a smile on my face, and we all know smiles are contagious.
I will keep watching the list daily, feel good.
James
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] the sound of ibogaine
Date: February 26, 2005 at 11:27:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

this is an approximative sonification of the infrared spectrum of the ibogaine molecule between 4000 and 700 cm^-1taken out of markos jpg. the 20 peak values were transposed into the audible range and played back as sine waves with propositional amplitudes. since the octavation is arbitrary i send you different samples.

loop them for perpetual listening and enjoy your weekend.

-ekki

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From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I’m clean!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: February 26, 2005 at 8:56:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Shell!!!

I see the silhoute of the intense drummer banging away an african beat
on his drums in honor of your new freedom.  He’s proud, I’m proud and
the whole world is proud of your actions which lead to your freedom.  !!!

love
mama
think@francomm.com

—– Original Message —–
From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:17 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m clean!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey there list! Thouhgt I had posted yesterday ,but I dont see it today, so if in fact it is a repeat, i aplogise. I did my (4th) ibogaine detox one week ago today. It was real neat, due to circumstance ,we began with the gradual protocol rahter than the so well known flood, me & my provider decided to experiment ,as ive had 3 aha experiences previously & just continued with the gradual approach. It still became pretty intense for a couple of hours ,with vomit & all the ibogaine glory. But basically He gave me more ibogaine when I had pain or other s/s of withdrawal. In truth I think it worked better for me this time. I am so thrilled to be clean again. I have decided to relocate, I have begun sessions with a therapist & a group ,and am ready to make the changes I need to stay clean this time!Well ,I’ll write more later,love shell

Sara Glatt <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Hi Randy,

Talk,
Do what you got to do, some need after care and some just know that they want to stay  alive and find their family worth it
Some need someone to tell them when they are good or bad, just like kids, they need authority to tell them you must do and be like…
Otherwise you are not …. and no Candy today.

It is good that you can read between the lines.

Take care,

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: donderdag 24 februari 2005 21:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Steve, you make some valid points, but at the risk of sounding defensive I have to respond to some of them. If you have been reading the list for so long you would know that I wouldn’t shut up about aftercare for a while. That was the biggest thing that was agreed upon at the conference. At least that’s my take on it. I don’t remember calling Ibogaine a one shot cure either. I apologize if I implied that. That is erroneous information. If I thought that you were really interested I would tell you the stats that were tossed about for Ibogaine and aftercare. The successes rate goes way up with aftercare. No one is saying it isn’t as important as the Ibogaine itself. Aftercare may well be more important. Whatever. Seems like I heard that about how long I’ve been clean at AA meetings too. You’ve been brainwashed by what AA/NA you checked out. Maybe a booster will help. Seems like that you were saying a lot of the same stuff that I am saying last year before you went to Africa. (Thanx for being nice to my mother by the way.) Yea, I’m the new kid so kick me for being enthusiastic. Maybe one day I’ll be an “old timer” like you. I’ll “stick with the winners” and “do the right thing” “meeting mak…………..see you got me thinkin’ I’m at an AA meeting again. I guess there are things about my personality that some people don’t like. That’s on them. I’m trying in my own way to help other people that want it, with addiction. I’m doing more than ranting on this list. Awareness is growing in Kentucky where there is a huge problem with Oxy’s. I’m seeing to it. Every where I go I talk to counselors and doctors who seem very interested because they see the change in me. Trust me, I know a lot of doctors and counselors. Right now all I can do is talk, and that is what I’m doing. Not very many addicts in KY are really into the new age twist on things that gets bantered about here. Some, but not very many. They are reading this list too. Who’s going to relate to people like that. You? I’ve played music loudly all of my life. I’ll do the same for Ibogaine. We all use the information that we have to get by in life. Lighten Up Beavis.              Randy

From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 26, 2005 at 7:31:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry, no. I’m glad I have at leat what I have;-)

Marko

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005, ekki wrote:

has there ever been an NMR-spectrum of ibogaine been made? marko, do
you have data or text files for your spectrum-jpgs?

-ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 26, 2005 at 7:42:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki,
Thats cool information.
Can you keep me posted when you collect your data together? I would like to keep it on file.
Thanks
Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
does anyone know the spectrum analysis values of the ibogaine-molecule?
for the mdma molecule there is 234, 285 and 274nm but i cannot find any
on ibogaine
those data can be translated into audible frequencies in order to
program sythesizers
also to get relating bpm and delaytime values
it would also be interesting to compare it to other frequencies of
nature and universe
like one of the mdma-frequencies is exactly 1.5 times the daily
rotation of the earth frequency (194,18Hz)

could also be used for chillout ambient rooms(colors, lighteffects and
audio all relating to ibo, somehow)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m clean!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: February 26, 2005 at 7:17:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey there list! Thouhgt I had posted yesterday ,but I dont see it today, so if in fact it is a repeat, i aplogise. I did my (4th) ibogaine detox one week ago today. It was real neat, due to circumstance ,we began with the gradual protocol rahter than the so well known flood, me & my provider decided to experiment ,as ive had 3 aha experiences previously & just continued with the gradual approach. It still became pretty intense for a couple of hours ,with vomit & all the ibogaine glory. But basically He gave me more ibogaine when I had pain or other s/s of withdrawal. In truth I think it worked better for me this time. I am so thrilled to be clean again. I have decided to relocate, I have begun sessions with a therapist & a group ,and am ready to make the changes I need to stay clean this time!Well ,I’ll write more later,love shell

Sara Glatt <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Hi Randy,

Talk,
Do what you got to do, some need after care and some just know that they want to stay  alive and find their family worth it
Some need someone to tell them when they are good or bad, just like kids, they need authority to tell them you must do and be like…
Otherwise you are not …. and no Candy today.

It is good that you can read between the lines.

Take care,

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: donderdag 24 februari 2005 21:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Steve, you make some valid points, but at the risk of sounding defensive I have to respond to some of them. If you have been reading the list for so long you would know that I wouldn’t shut up about aftercare for a while. That was the biggest thing that was agreed upon at the conference. At least that’s my take on it. I don’t remember calling Ibogaine a one shot cure either. I apologize if I implied that. That is erroneous information. If I thought that you were really interested I would tell you the stats that were tossed about for Ibogaine and aftercare. The successes rate goes way up with aftercare. No one is saying it isn’t as important as the Ibogaine itself. Aftercare may well be more important. Whatever. Seems like I heard that about how long I’ve been clean at AA meetings too. You’ve been brainwashed by what AA/NA you checked out. Maybe a booster will help. Seems like that you were saying a lot of the same stuff that I am saying last year before you went to Africa. (Thanx for being nice to my mother by the way.) Yea, I’m the new kid so kick me for being enthusiastic. Maybe one day I’ll be an “old timer” like you. I’ll “stick with the winners” and “do the right thing” “meeting mak…………..see you got me thinkin’ I’m at an AA meeting again. I guess there are things about my personality that some people don’t like. That’s on them. I’m trying in my own way to help other people that want it, with addiction. I’m doing more than ranting on this list. Awareness is growing in Kentucky where there is a huge problem with Oxy’s. I’m seeing to it. Every where I go I talk to counselors and doctors who seem very interested because they see the change in me. Trust me, I know a lot of doctors and counselors. Right now all I can do is talk, and that is what I’m doing. Not very many addicts in KY are really into the new age twist on things that gets bantered about here. Some, but not very many. They are reading this list too. Who’s going to relate to people like that. You? I’ve played music loudly all of my life. I’ll do the same for Ibogaine. We all use the information that we have to get by in life. Lighten Up Beavis.              Randy

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 26, 2005 at 5:19:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

well the idea is not exactly mine since similar things have been done for mdma in berlin in the 90ties and the formulas and theory are downloadable, unfortunately only in german language.

what is interesting is that the brain as well as every molecule and every plant absorb and radiate waves, and different frequencies both in pitch and beat can be related to different states of mind. special frequencies are used in sound bowl therapie and i heard of a clinic where they use enormous gongs for drug-therapie. in classical east-indian music and maybe also in other indigenous music there are also numerous relationships between frequencies and earth rotation, sun etc. the use of 440Hz for ‘a’ as basic pitch it totally arbitrary and doesn´t make much sense.
any audible frequency can be translated into color, and i wonder how smells relate to it. i obtained some aromatherapie oils – thanks julie – and its fun to experiment with them.

randy, have you already checked this site ?
http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articletoshow=63&language=en

the problem with music is that a combination of a few frequencies itself is not that exciting, since sounds get their charakter and beauty usually by the way the formants behave over time.

has there ever been an NMR-spectrum of ibogaine been made? marko, do you have data or text files for your spectrum-jpgs?

-ekki

Am 25.02.2005 um 23:41 schrieb BiscuitBoy714@aol.com:

Ekki, only a keyboard player would think of something like that. That’s cool as shit man. You know I have to try something like that, right? I swear I’ll say it was your idea. Really, well, eventually, sometime before I die. I wonder what the numbers are for LSD?or Heroin? Unless the combination is just unbearable, it would be cool to try and write to set parameters, and to a drug theme like that.     Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols
Date: February 26, 2005 at 3:45:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hanna, try and find a copy of T Rex the Slider. I think you will like the mystical twist that Marc Bolan puts on things. He could rock too. Electric Warrior is pretty good too. David Bowie played sax and Elton John played piano on Bang a Gong. Keep your chin up, music helps me through tough times too.        Randy        PS I have the words and the chord structure for the song I wrote about you. It has turned out to be too intricate to play guitar and sing at the same time on it. At the end you take Ibogaine and sail away on a boat for Fiji, or where ever you would like to go.                 Randy

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols
Date: February 26, 2005 at 3:21:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Go Hannah.  I can really relate to all the music you listed.  Brilliant.  Hope things get better for you and wish you lots of best wishes.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Saturday, 26 February 2005 4:46:46 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols

still ot, but right on Hannah, yer musical tastes are just about perfect.
;-))

and yeah, breakups suck.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Hannah Clay
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols

Hi all!

Take my advice n listen to lotsa Sex Pistols n get rip roarin drunk! Or am
I showing my immaturity? Or Britishness? All I know is I’m still trying to
get oevr being dumped for soemone else after 3yrs. Its been 3 months now.
I reckon once he moves his stuff out this weekend I’ll just have to stay
well away from him. My bank balance says I have £200 but won’t let me have
any and its Friday night, how craps that?! I dunno why I’m writing this. I
read all your posts with love and they cheer me up and strengthen me but I
feel just so bloody….human? next to you all. My world is so tiny. I’ve
been doing the brown and the rock, I love snowballs, but now I have just
have vodka and Sid to help me. I’m sorry. Dya think Shrooms can be used in
any way like Ibo? I have access to them! Any advice on growing em would be
greatly appreciated too.

I feel very small.

Keep tellin myself that ain’t nesseccarily a bad fing!

Love and saorry for babbling bollox. I’m on a self-destruct streak!

Love Hannah xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I love Violent Femmes, Blister in the sun-that cheers me up.

And ofcourse Jimi hendrix, Davidi Bowie in his Z.Stardust faze, erm…New
Model army n Levellers but I guess they’re british. Now listening to ’12
days of christmas punk’ by Sex pistols-werhay.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols
Date: February 25, 2005 at 10:46:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

still ot, but right on Hannah, yer musical tastes are just about perfect.
;-))

and yeah, breakups suck.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Hannah Clay
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols

Hi all!

Take my advice n listen to lotsa Sex Pistols n get rip roarin drunk!  Or am I showing my immaturity?  Or Britishness?  All I know is I’m still trying to get oevr being dumped for soemone else after 3yrs.  Its been 3 months now. I reckon once he moves his stuff out this weekend I’ll just have to stay well away from him.  My bank balance says I have £200 but won’t let me have any and its Friday night, how craps that?!  I dunno why I’m writing this.  I read all your posts with love and they cheer me up and strengthen me but I feel just so bloody….human? next to you all.  My world is so tiny.  I’ve been doing the brown and the rock, I love snowballs, but now I have just have vodka and Sid to help me.  I’m sorry.  Dya think Shrooms can be used in any way like Ibo?  I have access to them!  Any advice on growing em would be greatly appreciated too.

I feel very small.

Keep tellin myself that ain’t nesseccarily a bad fing!

Love and saorry for babbling bollox.  I’m on a self-destruct streak!

Love Hannah xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I love Violent Femmes,  Blister in the sun-that cheers me up.

And ofcourse Jimi hendrix, Davidi Bowie in his Z.Stardust faze, erm…New Model army n Levellers but I guess they’re british.  Now listening to ’12 days of christmas punk’ by Sex pistols-werhay.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan/DONNA!
Date: February 25, 2005 at 9:22:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You got support over here Angel.
Thinking of ya.
love,
Jasen.

 

HI Hannah
Are you still around I plan to start my detox friday, and I was wondering (I know you are really busy) but it would really help if I could talk to you because you have been there, I dont have any support here really.  I think i will email you off list…………

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 25, 2005 at 6:52:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

its more red and bluish green , i´m afraid.
next time i´ll check twice before presenting my wannabe scientific discoveries to the public

Am 25.02.2005 um 23:58 schrieb ekki:

thank you marko
especially the ir-spectre looks interesting.

for the beginning:
if i take 2 peaks at 221 and 280 nm with relative amplitude 5:1 and double them for getting them into the visible spectrum, then devide the speed of light by them then i get about 678,3 * 10^12 sec^-1 and 535,4 * 10^12 sec^-1 which is orange and blue

THE COLORS OF IBOGAINE MAY LOOK LIKE THIS OR MAYBE I AM WRONG 🙂

cheers ekki

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] James
Date: February 25, 2005 at 5:58:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

James, it’s good to see you here dude. Dana helped steer me to Ibogaine too. I consider this list aftercare too, along with everything else you can possibly do to help get through the day. There are some very good books out for people like us too. I reread most of the big book of AA, and read a book called the 4 Agreements recently. It helped. Stick around, it helps me to read the list everyday.              Randy

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 25, 2005 at 5:58:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thank you marko
especially the ir-spectre looks interesting.

for the beginning:
if i take 2 peaks at 221 and 280 nm with relative amplitude 5:1 and double them for getting them into the visible spectrum, then devide the speed of light by them then i get about 678,3 * 10^12 sec^-1 and 535,4 * 10^12 sec^-1 which is orange and blue

THE COLORS OF IBOGAINE MAY LOOK LIKE THIS OR MAYBE I AM WRONG 🙂

cheers ekki

Am 25.02.2005 um 20:28 schrieb Marko:

Hi Ekki,

I’m trying to find/make the audible sound of the Ibogaine molecule for….
about 10 years now… and am not getting nowhere…

We have soem Ibogaine specters at http://sacrament.kibla.si/

Please help yourself, and hope you’ll send us THE sound when you make it
=)

Marko

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 25, 2005 at 5:41:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki, only a keyboard player would think of something like that. That’s cool as shit man. You know I have to try something like that, right? I swear I’ll say it was your idea. Really, well, eventually, sometime before I die. I wonder what the numbers are for LSD?or Heroin? Unless the combination is just unbearable, it would be cool to try and write to set parameters, and to a drug theme like that.     Randy

From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] *PROHIBITIVE ARREST: Mother Jailed for Smoking Tobacco Around Kids
Date: February 25, 2005 at 3:41:57 PM EST
To: “Drugwar Ibogaine List” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m not here to defend nor condone tobacco nor its users, but the wisdom in me says there’s so much hunger, corruption and injustice in our country right now that who uses tobacco should be a low priority non-issue at this critical time. What should be a major issue to us all is another prohibition.

Yes, I’m aware of all the currently publicized health risks of second hand smoke. I’m not guessing how much is exaggeration designed to gain support for another prohibition. But I do know that when a government is preparing to create a prohibition, many facts are distorted to increase fear/anger/negative responses; some segment of the population is demonized (it must be a large group or it’s not worth the effort because prohibition is designed to make some people a lot of money and give a lot more control to the people running things).

I also know that prohibition can be enacted with exorbitant taxes as easily as with actual laws and proclamations. The demonization is necessary to make sure the ‘good’ people are happy to see the ‘bad’ people punished in any way the elite find profitable.

After propaganda gains enough public support, and taxes on items to be prohibited are sky-high, a black market springs up, ill-thought-out laws are enacted, and punishment begins.

Give them a free Ibogaine treatment or send them to rehab or practice tolerance or give them some space, but please think carefully before you support the incarceration of anyone for tobacco. We can’t possible build enough prisons to lock all the users and sellers of tobacco away with the drug war criminals. And at an average of $20,000 to $40,000 a year to care for every person in prison, there’s simply not enough money to take on millions more. Yet we are sadly heading in that direction without a second thought.

In the 90 years of the prohibition on some drugs and plants and during the 60+ years since the drug war began, there’s not been a credible victory, despite the huge amount of money we’ve donated to it.  Why would we do it again?

What has happened in all those years, what ALWAYS happens with prohibition laws, is the establishment of the black market and its resulting crime we all fear so much, total destruction of millions of decent people’s lives (people who could have gotten over an addiction but will never recover from their brush with the law) and a severe loss of respect for authority when it can’t enforce its own laws.

I’ve watched drug war cops go bad, lawyers get rich, the appearance of new and more dangerous drugs, prisons overflow with criminals on both sides of the bars; innocent people slammed in a justice system that’s lost touch with honor; children growing up with substandard educations because so much of their budget is given to fight drug users; And still there’s been no major victory.

Drug use is not down, drug availability is no less, the age of experimentation has not changed, we are not spending less each year (rather more).  I say again, THERE HAS BEEN NO VICTORY!

EVERY prohibition in history (and there’s been many of them) has had the same depressing results and have never – NOT ONCE – even decreased the amount or use of the forbidden substance.  So what’s it all about?  Money for the few, misery for the many.  Why would we support such foolishness?

America is already teetering on the brink of destruction with its expensive internal and external wars and the loss of all the lives those policies bring. I just don’t want to watch another prohibition knock it over the edge.

Don’t give in to the desire to rule other people’s lives, to force them make the same choices you would make, to punish them severely for not doing so. Don’t help fuel another division in our beloved country.  Take the survey. Join the discussion.  Let your politicians know you resist using any policy that has such a long and clear history of failure and desolation as prohibition.

Don’t forget, the next substance they go after may make you a criminal too.

Kay Lee, Secretary
kaylee1@charter.net
2683 Rockcliff Rd. SE
Atlanta, GA 30316
404-212-0690
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Women’s Organization for National Prohibition Reform
WONPR – www.wonpr.org/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

News Headlines
Mother Arrested For Defying Order Not To Smoke Around Kids
A Virginia mother faced up to 10 days in jail after defying an order by a judge not to smoke around her two children.
More Details

Survey: Smoking Ban A Violation Of Rights?
Discussion: Mom Can’t Smoke Around Kids

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Mr. Pure
Date: February 25, 2005 at 3:16:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear James,

Your email was wonderful-thanx for making my day!  You
sound very positive and well, glowy!
Congratulations..

Not sure how long you have been on the forum, but
would like to extend a hearty welcome regardless…

cheers,
Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: MrPure@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 25, 2005 at 3:09:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Anybody who believes that ibogaine is the magic bullet has been misinformed.
the after care is the most important part of the cure.
It has been 1 month since I had my ibogaine experience, and I’m still clean and sober but it has not been a walk in the park!
But I was not lead to believe that the ibo would cure me, it was explained like this.
You take the ibogaine and when the experience is over you desire for drugs is not there.
Yes, there is a void left behind which has to be filled, but that is your job as the after treatment.
Go to a meeting or a therapist, don’t hangout with people who do dope or sell dope, try to change your everyday environment this is not easy when all you have done is drugs and alcohol for 17 yrs.
Everyday for me is a new start, I know that people don”t believe that ibogaine is some sort of cure, but out of the 7 people I know who have experienced the ibogaine. we are all clean, and all had positive experiences. I believed I was going to die if I did not get help and I’m lucky enough too have been given a second chance.
I’m 37 yrs old with a new lease on life. A free man.
thank you Dana Beal.
i hope this email can help people in some small way,
If anyone would like to mail me feel free, I will share my experience with anyone who wants to listen!
James

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT,Sex Pistols
Date: February 25, 2005 at 2:48:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all!

Take my advice n listen to lotsa Sex Pistols n get rip roarin drunk!  Or am I showing my immaturity?  Or Britishness?  All I know is I’m still trying to get oevr being dumped for soemone else after 3yrs.  Its been 3 months now.  I reckon once he moves his stuff out this weekend I’ll just have to stay well away from him.  My bank balance says I have £200 but won’t let me have any and its Friday night, how craps that?!  I dunno why I’m writing this.  I read all your posts with love and they cheer me up and strengthen me but I feel just so bloody….human? next to you all.  My world is so tiny.  I’ve been doing the brown and the rock, I love snowballs, but now I have just have vodka and Sid to help me.  I’m sorry.  Dya think Shrooms can be used in any way like Ibo?  I have access to them!  Any advice on growing em would be greatly appreciated too.

I feel very small.

Keep tellin myself that ain’t nesseccarily a bad fing!

Love and saorry for babbling bollox.  I’m on a self-destruct streak!

Love Hannah xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I love Violent Femmes,  Blister in the sun-that cheers me up.

And ofcourse Jimi hendrix, Davidi Bowie in his Z.Stardust faze, erm…New Model army n Levellers but I guess they’re british.  Now listening to ’12 days of christmas punk’ by Sex pistols-werhay.

From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 25, 2005 at 2:28:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki,

I’m trying to find/make the audible sound of the Ibogaine molecule for….
about 10 years now… and am not getting nowhere…

We have soem Ibogaine specters at http://sacrament.kibla.si/

Please help yourself, and hope you’ll send us THE sound when you make it
=)

Marko

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, ekki wrote:

does anyone know the spectrum analysis values of the ibogaine-molecule?
for the mdma molecule there is 234, 285 and 274nm but i cannot find any
on ibogaine
those data can be translated into audible frequencies in order to
program sythesizers
also to get relating bpm and delaytime values
it would also be interesting to compare it to other frequencies of
nature and universe
like one of the mdma-frequencies is exactly 1.5 times the daily
rotation of the earth frequency (194,18Hz)

could also be used for chillout ambient rooms(colors, lighteffects and
audio all relating to ibo, somehow)

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan/DONNA!
Date: February 25, 2005 at 1:48:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please email me offlist Donna but use

spaglet@hotmail.com

I’ll notice it more quickly!  I’m still catching up so dunno how you are now, let me know?  Thinking of you babe and my hands here if you need someone to help you get through this, just hold on tight! 😉

Loadsa love Hannah

—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

HI Hannah
Are you still around I plan to start my detox friday, and I was wondering (I know you are really busy) but it would really help if I could talk to you because you have been there, I dont have any support here really.  I think i will email you off list…………

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibo spectrum analysis
Date: February 25, 2005 at 1:42:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

does anyone know the spectrum analysis values of the ibogaine-molecule?
for the mdma molecule there is 234, 285 and 274nm but i cannot find any on ibogaine
those data can be translated into audible frequencies in order to program sythesizers
also to get relating bpm and delaytime values
it would also be interesting to compare it to other frequencies of nature and universe
like one of the mdma-frequencies is exactly 1.5 times the daily rotation of the earth frequency (194,18Hz)

could also be used for chillout ambient rooms(colors, lighteffects and audio all relating to ibo, somehow)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Randy,
Date: February 25, 2005 at 10:11:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston said the Bwiti told him, “you know what you know”.<

Hi all and Randy, I’m not sure it was me who was told that, unless you’re paraphrasing something I’ve written. I think it was someone else who wrote that specifically though.
Just to say in friendly fashion.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Randy,

Thank you Sara. I’ve got a feeling that you know what I’m tryin’ to get done. Don’t get me wrong, I respect everyone who has seen the light and offers advice and support. Before Ibogaine I took everything so personally that I couldn’t tell good advice from an outright slam. I was missing a lot of good stuff then. Preston said the Bwiti told him, “you know what you know”. I feel the same way. I know when to listen now too. I have peace now like I have never had before. I heard a lot of information last weekend, all of it good. Ibogaine is the most amazing thing I have ever been involved in. It’s almost like music to me because it soothes the soul and is ever evolving. I’ve never felt so passionate about anything except my family my whole life before, ohh maybe music, but music doesn’t need any help, Ibogaine does. I understand why Howard was so driven to get the word out now. I love everybody that shows up here, and there is nothing going to change that.      Randy

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 25, 2005 at 10:09:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Allison,
I go up and down pretty drastically, giving me the suspicion that I may very well be battling that ol’ manic depressive type thing in myself, as I do, when I stop to consider things, exhibit classic symptoms of it, with my drastic (and I mean really, really drastic) swings from happiness and can’t get enough done no matter how much work I cram in, to “oh my good I have to keep breathing? What? I can’t just lie here and not breath? How depressing” type feelings. It’s tough this life thing sometimes, and I’m having lots of trouble keeping myself up rather than down- sometimes. I did way too many pain killers this week, which helped the pain immencely, but also left me with no pain killers (well, that’s not quite right- it left me with 80 less than I had 3 days ago- and V won’t break open the new bottle for another couple days, “forcing me” to try and stick to the schedule with the other part of the prescription). I have to make due for the next couple days with just the mscontins, which don’t do much for the pain but they do wonders for keeping me from getting illish until I am able to open the next bottle of dilaudid.
For Peter and those who seem to think there’s not much more to addiction than an immaturity problem, or a socially constructed false issue- Peter, I agree with you on so much, but on that one particular issue, I kinda agree with those who’ve suggested you actually try out a habit- get yourself “strung out” on some kind of opiate, and I don’t mean give yourself a chippy but rather a full blown habit, and see what sort of effort it might take even for you to break it. It’s not merely getting through a “few days of flu” or however it was you phrased it, but rather a whole mess of physical AND psychological issues involved.
As I pretty much snapped at the substitute doc last week who told me how hesitant she was (rather, how if it were her she would give them to me but since my own doc does everymonth she couldn’t very well just cut me off) to give me my script as she feels docs “turn out addicts.” In my own case, I couldn’t believe what I was hearing, as I could care less about being “addicted” when my choices are that, or suffering in so much pain I cannot sit at my desk, and if I do manage to sit here concentration through the pain is terrible.
But now I’m finding I’m having trouble concentrating on the meds too, due to having to do so many to get on top of my pain that I sometimes (god damn I’m addmitting a lot here) have trouble just getting on top of the resulting sleepiness and fogginess than can and sometimes does result from the amounts I need to take to get the desired effect.
But as someone noted to me yesterday, the two meds I take for pain are the very cleanest, safest for a liver and most effective for pain I could possibly take, and I don’t plan on stopping their use at this time in my life.
But what I am very, very seriously considering is going throuugh another session at some point down the road, and hopefully not too far down the road (it all boils down to money damn it). Because I know from much personal experience that of anything I have personally ever tried to help me break an addiction to opiates, NOTHING works better than an ibogaine session- FOR ME that is. For other there very well might be other more effective routes, but for me they all sucked and never ever worked for any time at all, and ibogaine did not only help me drastically reduce my habit, it had a lot of other amazing “side” effects that made it very very very worthwhile for me, personally, to take.
I personally feel there is room for both and a lot of positions too Peter and all. In Peter C.’s case, we need a LOT more people like him, who are insisting that the entire WAR itself is causing way more problems than any drug abuse ever could no matter how we look at this issue and try to end the stinkin’ destructive evil war. But, legalization ain’t happening any time soon, and until we do achieve that status, we absolutely have to have as many tool as we can have available to us to break us away from the prohibitionist clutches, and ibogaine to me is one of the very best- particularly because it DOES NOT cop to the prohibtionist viewpoint about addiction- kick drugs with a psychedelic entheogen? What? Yep, and it’s beautiful.
So what I’m trying to say in this rant is that there really is room for both viewpoints and for both camps to wage their own fights against prohibition and drug descrimination. I don’t think we have to disagree with anything here, as I don’t think the two viewpoint are mutually exclusive, at least, they aren’t in my mind or in my active, (very active, even with addiction AND pain problems) life.
I hope I just made sense here and didn’t babble too unintelligibly.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Hope you are feeling a bit better Preston.  You sounded pretty miserable back there.  Just letting you know that we are thinking of you.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 25 February 2005 8:58:04 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Remember Preston talking about
how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while ago?<

Eeeeyeeah, I remember that, and it’s a little embarrassing- but hey, the
cookies crumble oddly sometimes, as do the nerves in my spine and leg.
;-)))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Randy,

It is pushing it to say ibogaine “has helped everyone who has taken it in
some fashion or another.” Irresponsible as well. It leads to the
impression that everyone should take it. Ask the people who have died from
it. On Howard’s site you can read negative experiences. I’m sorry, most
people who take it go back to dope, 5 months is not that long a time after
kicking. Of course it helps, but it is not the only way. To push it as
this magic cure in a pill doesn’t help anyone, addiction is complicated
and the more that is understood about it, the better.

The problem I have with the people who sell it as this cure in a pill is
that it makes it sound as if you don’t have to do anything else other than
take the ibo and WHAM! CURED! If you don’t do some other work, chances are
you will go back to the dark master. All you have to do is take it again?
And again? Yes, it has helped numerous people detox, but are you doing any
favors by not placing responsibility on the user? It’s only the individual
who can make the decision to stop, only you can not put a needle in your
arm, not an African root bark, not a higher power, not a loved one. Yes it
is powerful medicine, a tool. There is no one way, we are all different.
Look, I felt the same way three years ago… Remember Preston talking
about how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while
ago?

I’ve been trolling around this list for a while and there is always a new
crop of people claiming “Ibogaine is the shit, it saved me, everyone needs
to take it!” A few months later they disappear. It is an option and is not
for everyone. To say that it has an efficacy of %70 is false and
irresponsible. There are plenty of people who have had miserable
experiences with ibogaine, they are not on this list or going to a
conference. It has to be looked at in a balanced way. I think the efficacy
would improve if we figure out better systems for helping afterwards.
Plenty of addicts stop all on their own.

Ibogaine is spreading and it is easier to get and take than ever before.
Not that long ago it would cost you $30,000 to do it, now it’s allot
cheaper. It is spreading, even in America you no longer have to pay for a
round trip airfare to do it. I can’t see any way it will ever go off of
schedule 1… The way the system works here, it is an impossibility. I
wish I were wrong. Maybe the way it was meant to be is as an underground
sort of a thing. I guess my fear is that with the screaming dogma that
“Ibogaine is god in a pill and every addict MUST take it, it is the BEST”
ibogaine will be derailed and no one will get any help from it. A few high
profile deaths will put it back real quick. Think about the effect the New
York Times article had when Howard took the reporter to witness a
treatment and the patient died. Ibogaine has a strange energy that we do
not understand.

I can understand how Peter thinks that this veneration of a drug is
strange and I don’t know how helpful it is. It would easily appear to be
clanish and cult-like.

Talking with Patrick he said something like “ibogaine is a bunch of crazy
white guys.” True. I wish more of these crazy white guys would go to Gabon
and hang with the Bwiti. Why not go to the source? We don’t know
everything.

Cheers,
Steve

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.

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Randy,
Date: February 25, 2005 at 8:07:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy , it’s all good, be yourself and the rest will follow.

The Bwiti will not teach you how to take people off a  high dose of Methadone/ heroin& benzo’s.
If you have the time and Money to party then I will go with you to Gabon.

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: vrijdag 25 februari 2005 10:21
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Randy,

Thank you Sara. I’ve got a feeling that you know what I’m tryin’ to get done. Don’t get me wrong, I respect everyone who has seen the light and offers advice and support. Before Ibogaine I took everything so personally that I couldn’t tell good advice from an outright slam. I was missing a lot of good stuff then. Preston said the Bwiti told him, “you know what you know”. I feel the same way. I know when to listen now too. I have peace now like I have never had before. I heard a lot of information last weekend, all of it good. Ibogaine is the most amazing thing I have ever been involved in. It’s almost like music to me because it soothes the soul and is ever evolving. I’ve never felt so passionate about anything except my family my whole life before, ohh maybe music, but music doesn’t need any help, Ibogaine does. I understand why Howard was so driven to get the word out now. I love everybody that shows up here, and there is nothing going to change that.      Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cherry tomatoes will do – att. Peter C
Date: February 25, 2005 at 7:30:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee, that is the coolest thing I’ve ever seen you write dude. Ride On!. Ride The Fuck ON!!!     Randy

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cherry tomatoes will do – att. Peter C
Date: February 25, 2005 at 6:53:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry if my argument was somewhat pointed but I guess I was trying to engage you :-).

Reading what you have to say here leaves me with a lot more respect for your position. In the same way I would never dream of coaxing anyone to take ibogaine I would never deny another their point of view on something as profound as this.

Ibogaine is not about proselytising people or getting as many people “hooked” as possible. Its about FLOW. The kind of flow that lets everything move forward as a drop of water falls off a plate. As Steve very ascutely pointed out: eboga has its own energies. It happens how and when it is meant to happen and is not for everyone. Hence varied results and why I say that true intention is the basis of success in the use of this substance.

The only “fight” I want to join is the one that permits others the choice and in that we both share the same objective. Regarding your views on ibogaines intrinsic values I see no point to persuade you otherwise. Your argument is too well structure but unfortunately in this case lacks imho important experiential input. That said, lets agree to disagree.

Where I would like to leave the argument with you is on this note:

Whatever any of us do, let no one stand in the way of the progress of another and let each support one another but not impose our own needs or desires on another, i.e., let the ibo-clan help if it can in the lifting of the drug war and on the other side let the drug war recognise that it cannot hold the ibo-clan hostage in its own objectives by limiting the growth and direction of the pro-ibogaine lobby. Let us be free to pursue our own agenda driven by our own vision. Lets not play a United States of America power game on the individual parts that make up the world of drugs – lets not have an imperialism of the drug world but allow each part to contribute to the whole and develop seperately. Let the big players realise that in the same way that small countries have cultures different to the mainstream US and wish to hold onto their integrity, let the big players in the drug scene also have the humilty to see that we have good reason for our vision but also the fundamental human right to chose for ourselves leading to proper relationship based on the freedom of the individual parts. And if we chose differently to others let us all smile, have one big hug and get along. Give us the dignity and respect as a group of people mature enough to chose.

If we cannot chose what choice have we got?

Wishing you the very best,

Lee

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl> wrote:
Lee, the tool bit, I agree.Many drugs or theaters of whatever are learning tools for life sometimes, drugs are a special category.
Just as some drugs play BIG in these eternal drug scares, showing up like eartquakes all the time (the thirties/sixties marihuana,the seventies heroin, the eighties crack,just behind us xtc, now meth, the next one will be…….?)some drugs also play BIG as the incarnation of good. Both are quite ridiculous and only represent their symbolic meanings. Its interesting to analyse these meanings.They have really nothing to do with their varied chemical properties or varied types of use.
Crack used to ‘catalyse’ as all the other drug scare drugs the image of loss of individuality, our most holy western utopic characteristic. Ibo catalyses the ‘refinding’ of it.
People need no drugs to leave pattersn of drug use if they seriously wish to leave them.Easing the pain of coming off heroin happens by self regulated tapering of till a little and then sit out the flu. Or go to the Fidji Islands with your old mother and sweat out the illness, while scuba diving and munching cherry tomatoes. ( I am a bit sarcastic here, but not much!) But, if using a drug gives the feeling it helps, fine. But know that it is placebo that works ( exactly like nicorette).
So, I have a very distanced view on ‘medications’ to leave drug use patters, any way, thanks for reading closely/
pc

PS I sometimes use the image of crossing the street in London that kills so many people from the continent.They simply look the wrong way when they start crossing and get hit by cars coming from the wrong side of the street.Habits can kill, and changing habit is damn difficult sometimes.But some drug use patterns are nothing else but learned patterns of coping, and if people have not learned anything else, they may get killed in the Londontown of our lives.

Peter,

You unwillingness to look beyond the cliche of a drug is quite impressive. You also seem to avoid particular discussions. I guess if there were a line of doors which said cocaine, heroin, mdma and ibogaine, you would be able to explain to a panel why each door is philosophically the same. Useful ….

Ibogaine is nothing other than a TOOL that a person can use to rework their inner world with the help of “dare i say as it makes me out to be simpleminded or is it just that I am humbled by its benevolence” spiritual entities and ones own soul – assuming you care for that kind of thing? If not I can see how it would be in your vested interest to conjur levelling arguments to detract from this aspect. There is no veneration of ibogaine per see but there is veneration of what it catalyses.

Please, if you can make substantive comparisons between its effectiveness and the effectiveness of other “medications” to this end,  can you let the list know as it pisses me off to be so pathetic. You know what I mean. I simply think its a drag that I no longer want to kill myself or get out of this world but actually really feel deep and meaningful experiences. Hell fuck this ibogaine its a bunch of crap and you are right we should be under your banner and not stealing the show from the real issues.

Thank you for your enlightened discussion – well researched!

Lee

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl> wrote:
Okay. I agree. Most are no fools, but this
veneration of a drug ( by at least some of them)
is quite pathetic sometimes.

No, not curious at all
pc

>
>
>PS: Peter: “The ibo clan” isn’t all a bunch of
>blithering fools who just found god. It has
>every bit a place in helping heavy drug-users as
>does legalization. Are you curious to try it?
>


>————————————————-
>Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>University of Amsterdam
>
>Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
>mail address: postbox 94208
>1090 GE Amsterdam
>
>email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>fax +31-20-525 4317
>
>World Wide ! Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Randy,
Date: February 25, 2005 at 4:20:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Sara. I’ve got a feeling that you know what I’m tryin’ to get done. Don’t get me wrong, I respect everyone who has seen the light and offers advice and support. Before Ibogaine I took everything so personally that I couldn’t tell good advice from an outright slam. I was missing a lot of good stuff then. Preston said the Bwiti told him, “you know what you know”. I feel the same way. I know when to listen now too. I have peace now like I have never had before. I heard a lot of information last weekend, all of it good. Ibogaine is the most amazing thing I have ever been involved in. It’s almost like music to me because it soothes the soul and is ever evolving. I’ve never felt so passionate about anything except my family my whole life before, ohh maybe music, but music doesn’t need any help, Ibogaine does. I understand why Howard was so driven to get the word out now. I love everybody that shows up here, and there is nothing going to change that.      Randy

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 25, 2005 at 4:04:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hope you are feeling a bit better Preston.  You sounded pretty miserable back there.  Just letting you know that we are thinking of you.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 25 February 2005 8:58:04 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

> Remember Preston talking about
how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while ago?<

Eeeeyeeah, I remember that, and it’s a little embarrassing- but hey, the
cookies crumble oddly sometimes, as do the nerves in my spine and leg.
;-)))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

> Randy,
>
> It is pushing it to say ibogaine “has helped everyone who has taken it in
> some fashion or another.” Irresponsible as well. It leads to the
> impression that everyone should take it. Ask the people who have died from
> it. On Howard’s site you can read negative experiences. I’m sorry, most
> people who take it go back to dope, 5 months is not that long a time after
> kicking. Of course it helps, but it is not the only way. To push it as
> this magic cure in a pill doesn’t help anyone, addiction is complicated
> and the more that is understood about it, the better.
>
> The problem I have with the people who sell it as this cure in a pill is
> that it makes it sound as if you don’t have to do anything else other than
> take the ibo and WHAM! CURED! If you don’t do some other work, chances are
> you will go back to the dark master. All you have to do is take it again?
> And again? Yes, it has helped numerous people detox, but are you doing any
> favors by not placing responsibility on the user? It’s only the individual
> who can make the decision to stop, only you can not put a needle in your
> arm, not an African root bark, not a higher power, not a loved one. Yes it
> is powerful medicine, a tool. There is no one way, we are all different.
> Look, I felt the same way three years ago… Remember Preston talking
> about how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while
> ago?
>
> I’ve been trolling around this list for a while and there is always a new
> crop of people claiming “Ibogaine is the shit, it saved me, everyone needs
> to take it!” A few months later they disappear. It is an option and is not
> for everyone. To say that it has an efficacy of %70 is false and
> irresponsible. There are plenty of people who have had miserable
> experiences with ibogaine, they are not on this list or going to a
> conference. It has to be looked at in a balanced way. I think the efficacy
> would improve if we figure out better systems for helping afterwards.
> Plenty of addicts stop all on their own.
>
> Ibogaine is spreading and it is easier to get and take than ever before.
> Not that long ago it would cost you $30,000 to do it, now it’s allot
> cheaper. It is spreading, even in America you no longer have to pay for a
> round trip airfare to do it. I can’t see any way it will ever go off of
> schedule 1… The way the system works here, it is an impossibility. I
> wish I were wrong. Maybe the way it was meant to be is as an underground
> sort of a thing. I guess my fear is that with the screaming dogma that
> “Ibogaine is god in a pill and every addict MUST take it, it is the BEST”
> ibogaine will be derailed and no one will get any help from it. A few high
> profile deaths will put it back real quick. Think about the effect the New
> York Times article had when Howard took the reporter to witness a
> treatment and the patient died. Ibogaine has a strange energy that we do
> not understand.
>
> I can understand how Peter thinks that this veneration of a drug is
> strange and I don’t know how helpful it is. It would easily appear to be
> clanish and cult-like.
>
> Talking with Patrick he said something like “ibogaine is a bunch of crazy
> white guys.” True. I wish more of these crazy white guys would go to Gabon
> and hang with the Bwiti. Why not go to the source? We don’t know
> everything.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> [%]
>
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

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.

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Randy,
Date: February 24, 2005 at 9:56:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy,

Talk,
Do what you got to do, some need after care and some just know that they want to stay  alive and find their family worth it
Some need someone to tell them when they are good or bad, just like kids, they need authority to tell them you must do and be like…
Otherwise you are not …. and no Candy today.

It is good that you can read between the lines.

Take care,

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: donderdag 24 februari 2005 21:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Steve, you make some valid points, but at the risk of sounding defensive I have to respond to some of them. If you have been reading the list for so long you would know that I wouldn’t shut up about aftercare for a while. That was the biggest thing that was agreed upon at the conference. At least that’s my take on it. I don’t remember calling Ibogaine a one shot cure either. I apologize if I implied that. That is erroneous information. If I thought that you were really interested I would tell you the stats that were tossed about for Ibogaine and aftercare. The successes rate goes way up with aftercare. No one is saying it isn’t as important as the Ibogaine itself. Aftercare may well be more important. Whatever. Seems like I heard that about how long I’ve been clean at AA meetings too. You’ve been brainwashed by what AA/NA you checked out. Maybe a booster will help. Seems like that you were saying a lot of the same stuff that I am saying last year before you went to Africa. (Thanx for being nice to my mother by the way.) Yea, I’m the new kid so kick me for being enthusiastic. Maybe one day I’ll be an “old timer” like you. I’ll “stick with the winners” and “do the right thing” “meeting mak…………..see you got me thinkin’ I’m at an AA meeting again. I guess there are things about my personality that some people don’t like. That’s on them. I’m trying in my own way to help other people that want it, with addiction. I’m doing more than ranting on this list. Awareness is growing in Kentucky where there is a huge problem with Oxy’s. I’m seeing to it. Every where I go I talk to counselors and doctors who seem very interested because they see the change in me. Trust me, I know a lot of doctors and counselors. Right now all I can do is talk, and that is what I’m doing. Not very many addicts in KY are really into the new age twist on things that gets bantered about here. Some, but not very many. They are reading this list too. Who’s going to relate to people like that. You? I’ve played music loudly all of my life. I’ll do the same for Ibogaine. We all use the information that we have to get by in life. Lighten Up Beavis.              Randy

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 9:18:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 09:51 -0800 24-02-2005, Steven Anker wrote:

“ibogaine is a bunch of crazy white guys.” True. I wish more of
these crazy white guys would go to Gabon and hang with the Bwiti.

Please don’t!
pc

The forum *was* very male-ish, at the risk of sounding genderist.
Pissing contests?  Male bonding in the wilderness, like that scene in
The Doors movie… we’re a tribe, a tribe of warriors… uh, oh, wait,
wait a second… fire in the sky, planes burning ozone, privileged
folks mobilizing their resources to extract the indigenous capital, I
mean cultural property, I mean spiritual beings, but that’s not
politicized.  Oh no.  Not political at all.

Gesturing towards unity and trying to find the discipline to write
about earth gifts and the Mother.
love from fresh meadows, rachel

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter cherry tomatoes will do
Date: February 24, 2005 at 8:05:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

With all the du respect ….
I know that detachment is viewed by some scientist as a virtue, but I think Peter should addict himself to opium like Professor Tran Khuong Dan, then feel the effect of addiction and withdraw then ultimately invent his own cure and share the knowledge with the world

Just an idea 🙂
God Bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com ; my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cherry tomatoes will do

Peter, I must respectfully disagree with you about Ibogaine having a placebo effect. I have been through just about every withdrawal method there is, and I have to say that Ibogaine helped out in a big way. I’d do it for the introspection that it gave me anyway, even if it didn’t work for withdrawal, but it does. Or it did for me. It was well worth the effort. I never tried the scuba method, but I tried sex, alcohol, benzo’s, nothing, everything, hospitals, bars, home, hotel rooms, they all sucked while withdrawing way more than what I did with Ibogaine. I never felt well enough afterwards to stop for very long. I had to work to keep going. I had to use to keep going to work. It was a vicious circle. Call it what you will, but Ibogaine has given me freedom, I don’t have to spend all my money on dope anymore.       Randy

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 24, 2005 at 8:01:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,

May the force be with you brother.

You are empowered,  go bro’.

love,
Jasen Chamoun.

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:45:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello dear Sara,

I am thinking of you,…I remember.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: Sara Glatt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Using dreams

My client  who is a 10 years user , came off 80mg of methadone and a gram of heroin per day,
As he felt asleep last night ,
had a dream that he wasn’t sleeping just twisting and turning and he could here me sending my daugheter  to him with two sleeping pills,
after dreaming of taking them he  was sleeping until this morning without twisting and turning.

Sara

Van: Allison Senepart [mailto:paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz] 
Verzonden: donderdag 24 februari 2005 10:15
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams

I thought having dreams again was a healthy sign.  After disturbed sleep patterns and the dozing kind of out of it sleep having dreams was like sleep patterns re-adjusting and doing good things.  Something to do with REM or deep sleep.
If there is anyone else who can shed some light on this I too would be interested in the answer.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thursday, 24 February 2005 7:52:54 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams

i´ve been to two NA meetings lately (because of my drivers licence).
one of the guys shared that he had a dream about using the night
before. he is clean since years and has those dreams twice a year, but
thats not a problem.
i had a dream last night, too. i was dreaming to attend an NA meeting.
it took place in a big building with small rooms, bare masonry and
carpentry surrounded by barbed wire and i got into an argument with the
others. one guy wanted to beat me up. i decided not to run away or to
fight back and he let go of me. finally people dispersed into different
places in and around the building and i somehow got away.

matt, my suggestion: don´t worry about those dreams and don´t try to
deal with them. don´t make an issue out of it . dreaming is healing
from within and if things come up this is good. just watch and listen
inside, this is enough.
-ekki

Am 23.02.2005 um 18:56 schrieb matthew zielinski:

>
>
> Hi
>
> For the past two days ive been having very vivid dreams where ive been
> shooting down and up with all the effects these drugs produce, ie the
> warmth,energy etc..Its fucken frustrating becuase today being 5 weeks
> a few days clean im getting these overwhelming cravings which i know
> have been caused by those motherfucking nightmares..Although my will
> power is still unborken  and i feel strong;  i am worried if these
> continue i might succumb to the hellish temptetion –just to prove to
> my self its not worth it, but then i m uncertain what the consequence
> of my action would amount to….another ibogaine seesion is out of the
> question for now since i still suffer from chest pains from the last
> sesion…i know majority of recovering addicts experience these
> dreams..how have yyou dealt with them?
>
> Warmest Regards
>
> Love—-Matt—
>
>
>
> Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and
> get the first two months FREE*
> /]=——————————————————————–
> -=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=——————————————————————–
> -=[/

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.

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter/Gabon
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:32:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Steve !!
Nice E-Mail 🙂 !!
The good doctor Schweitzer, didn’t have the prejudices that another
Europeens doctors use to have and still have . He use to send some patient
to his colleages ” Medecine man of the Bush ” when he cound’nt cure them.
Not only he  was a great musician, a great doctor, a great christian but he
was  also very smart:-)).
God Bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:56 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Peter/Gabon

Please don’t! [go to the Bwiti]
pc

Peter,

Why not?  Corrupting the local culture? That’s a little condescending to
the
Bwiti. The tribes in Gabon are strong enough in their traditions to
withstand foreigners visiting. Plenty to choose from and the ones that
don’t
want the white man around will tell you so.

I went, learned allot, feel that it’s a good way for others to learn. It’s
a
world out of balance, why not get an exchange going? I feel that if people
want to learn about treating illness with this root the source is a good
place to go. It’s a very open religion and part of it is that anyone can
join. The one thing that all this interest in ibogaine has done is to
increase the cost of iboga for the locals, why not go and give back?
Interest in the local culture shows the locals that they have something of
worth, perhaps an aid in preserving the local traditions. Was it wrong of
Schweitzer to have a hospital there? He was a devout Christian, was it
wrong
for him to bring his beliefs there as well as Western medicine?

Whatever… the whole thing is a little silly and yes, the cult-like
veneration of a drug is annoying. Try and understand that many people have
found help when they thought none was available. For some who have tried
numerous ways to quit and ibo is the only thing which has worked, it is a
miracle, so a little enthusiasm is to be expected. It is not particularly
fun being a heavy drug user for 20 years, after a while it’s not that much
of a choice.

When I was doing the initiation one thing that struck me was how stupid
the
whole bit is, religious dogma is religious dogma, be it Catholic or Bwiti.
I
just don’t like religions. Still I felt that the experience was an awesome
learning experience and hanging in the jungle with a tribe is good fun.
The
locals found me amusing and I don’t think it hurt them or their culture
that
I was there. Good people. Amazing music, Randy, you would love it. We are
at
a point in history where this sort of exchange is possible, why not take
advantage of the opportunity? You will learn all there is about life in
Amsterdam?

You may find this interesting:
http://www.salon.com/travel/feature/1999/11/03/iboga/

Out of curiosity where did your interest in addiction/drug use come from?
Personal experience, loved ones, or just find the topic interesting?

Best,
Steve.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 3:14:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Steve, you make some valid points, but at the risk of sounding defensive I have to respond to some of them. If you have been reading the list for so long you would know that I wouldn’t shut up about aftercare for a while. That was the biggest thing that was agreed upon at the conference. At least that’s my take on it. I don’t remember calling Ibogaine a one shot cure either. I apologize if I implied that. That is erroneous information. If I thought that you were really interested I would tell you the stats that were tossed about for Ibogaine and aftercare. The successes rate goes way up with aftercare. No one is saying it isn’t as important as the Ibogaine itself. Aftercare may well be more important. Whatever. Seems like I heard that about how long I’ve been clean at AA meetings too. You’ve been brainwashed by what AA/NA you checked out. Maybe a booster will help. Seems like that you were saying a lot of the same stuff that I am saying last year before you went to Africa. (Thanx for being nice to my mother by the way.) Yea, I’m the new kid so kick me for being enthusiastic. Maybe one day I’ll be an “old timer” like you. I’ll “stick with the winners” and “do the right thing” “meeting mak…………..see you got me thinkin’ I’m at an AA meeting again. I guess there are things about my personality that some people don’t like. That’s on them. I’m trying in my own way to help other people that want it, with addiction. I’m doing more than ranting on this list. Awareness is growing in Kentucky where there is a huge problem with Oxy’s. I’m seeing to it. Every where I go I talk to counselors and doctors who seem very interested because they see the change in me. Trust me, I know a lot of doctors and counselors. Right now all I can do is talk, and that is what I’m doing. Not very many addicts in KY are really into the new age twist on things that gets bantered about here. Some, but not very many. They are reading this list too. Who’s going to relate to people like that. You? I’ve played music loudly all of my life. I’ll do the same for Ibogaine. We all use the information that we have to get by in life. Lighten Up Beavis.              Randy

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Peter/Gabon
Date: February 24, 2005 at 2:56:45 PM EST
To: cohen.cedro@uva.nl, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please don’t! [go to the Bwiti]
pc

Peter,

Why not?  Corrupting the local culture? That’s a little condescending to the Bwiti. The tribes in Gabon are strong enough in their traditions to withstand foreigners visiting. Plenty to choose from and the ones that don’t want the white man around will tell you so.

I went, learned allot, feel that it’s a good way for others to learn. It’s a world out of balance, why not get an exchange going? I feel that if people want to learn about treating illness with this root the source is a good place to go. It’s a very open religion and part of it is that anyone can join. The one thing that all this interest in ibogaine has done is to increase the cost of iboga for the locals, why not go and give back? Interest in the local culture shows the locals that they have something of worth, perhaps an aid in preserving the local traditions. Was it wrong of Schweitzer to have a hospital there? He was a devout Christian, was it wrong for him to bring his beliefs there as well as Western medicine?

Whatever… the whole thing is a little silly and yes, the cult-like veneration of a drug is annoying. Try and understand that many people have found help when they thought none was available. For some who have tried numerous ways to quit and ibo is the only thing which has worked, it is a miracle, so a little enthusiasm is to be expected. It is not particularly fun being a heavy drug user for 20 years, after a while it’s not that much of a choice.

When I was doing the initiation one thing that struck me was how stupid the whole bit is, religious dogma is religious dogma, be it Catholic or Bwiti. I just don’t like religions. Still I felt that the experience was an awesome learning experience and hanging in the jungle with a tribe is good fun. The locals found me amusing and I don’t think it hurt them or their culture that I was there. Good people. Amazing music, Randy, you would love it. We are at a point in history where this sort of exchange is possible, why not take advantage of the opportunity? You will learn all there is about life in Amsterdam?

You may find this interesting: http://www.salon.com/travel/feature/1999/11/03/iboga/

Out of curiosity where did your interest in addiction/drug use come from? Personal experience, loved ones, or just find the topic interesting?

Best,
Steve.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 2:57:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Remember Preston talking about
how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while ago?<

Eeeeyeeah, I remember that, and it’s a little embarrassing- but hey, the cookies crumble oddly sometimes, as do the nerves in my spine and leg.
;-)))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Randy,

It is pushing it to say ibogaine “has helped everyone who has taken it in some fashion or another.” Irresponsible as well. It leads to the impression that everyone should take it. Ask the people who have died from it. On Howard’s site you can read negative experiences. I’m sorry, most people who take it go back to dope, 5 months is not that long a time after kicking. Of course it helps, but it is not the only way. To push it as this magic cure in a pill doesn’t help anyone, addiction is complicated and the more that is understood about it, the better.

The problem I have with the people who sell it as this cure in a pill is that it makes it sound as if you don’t have to do anything else other than take the ibo and WHAM! CURED! If you don’t do some other work, chances are you will go back to the dark master. All you have to do is take it again? And again? Yes, it has helped numerous people detox, but are you doing any favors by not placing responsibility on the user? It’s only the individual who can make the decision to stop, only you can not put a needle in your arm, not an African root bark, not a higher power, not a loved one. Yes it is powerful medicine, a tool. There is no one way, we are all different. Look, I felt the same way three years ago… Remember Preston talking about how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while ago?

I’ve been trolling around this list for a while and there is always a new crop of people claiming “Ibogaine is the shit, it saved me, everyone needs to take it!” A few months later they disappear. It is an option and is not for everyone. To say that it has an efficacy of %70 is false and irresponsible. There are plenty of people who have had miserable experiences with ibogaine, they are not on this list or going to a conference. It has to be looked at in a balanced way. I think the efficacy would improve if we figure out better systems for helping afterwards. Plenty of addicts stop all on their own.

Ibogaine is spreading and it is easier to get and take than ever before. Not that long ago it would cost you $30,000 to do it, now it’s allot cheaper. It is spreading, even in America you no longer have to pay for a round trip airfare to do it. I can’t see any way it will ever go off of schedule 1… The way the system works here, it is an impossibility. I wish I were wrong. Maybe the way it was meant to be is as an underground sort of a thing. I guess my fear is that with the screaming dogma that “Ibogaine is god in a pill and every addict MUST take it, it is the BEST” ibogaine will be derailed and no one will get any help from it. A few high profile deaths will put it back real quick. Think about the effect the New York Times article had when Howard took the reporter to witness a treatment and the patient died. Ibogaine has a strange energy that we do not understand.

I can understand how Peter thinks that this veneration of a drug is strange and I don’t know how helpful it is. It would easily appear to be clanish and cult-like.

Talking with Patrick he said something like “ibogaine is a bunch of crazy white guys.” True. I wish more of these crazy white guys would go to Gabon and hang with the Bwiti. Why not go to the source? We don’t know everything.

Cheers,
Steve

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [DrugWar] Fw: FOCUS: Bush Gets Stoned by World Media
Date: February 24, 2005 at 2:37:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “med-marijuana list” <mmj4cp@lists.riseup.net>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: drugwar@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “t r u t h o u t” <messenger@truthout.org>
To: <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:28 AM
Subject: FOCUS: Bush Gets Stoned by World Media

FOCUS: Bush Gets Stoned by World Media
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/022405Z.shtml

Bush Gets Stoned by the World Media
By Jefferson Morley
The Washington Post
Thursday 24 February 2005
U.S. press less interested in drug remarks.
President Bush all but admits to illicit drug use for the first time.
Overseas it’s the stuff of headlines. At home, the U.S. press has generally downplayed the story.
The divergent coverage of Bush’s apparent drug use is a textbook study in the difference between the international online media and their American counterparts. On the issue of youthful illicit drug use, most U.S. news editors — liberal, conservative or other — defer to Bush in a way that their foreign counterparts do not.
The New York Times broke the Bush marijuana story Friday in a front-page report on Doug Wead, a Christian activist who has published a book based in part on conversations with Bush that Wead secretly recorded in 1998 and 1999. On Wead’s tapes, whose authenticity the White House does not dispute, Bush came close to admitting he had smoked marijuana and avoided answering a question about whether he had used cocaine.
“I wouldn’t answer the marijuana questions. You know why? Because I don’t want some little kid doing what I tried,” Bush said.
On a question about cocaine, Bush replied, “Rather than saying no … I think it’s time for someone to draw the line and look people in the eye and say, you know, ‘I’m not going to participate in ugly rumors about me and blame my opponents,’ and hold the line. Stand up for a system that will not allow this kind of crap to go on,'” according to a transcript excerpt posted on ABC’s “Good Morning America” Web site.
Since Bush has never acknowledged using drugs, the international media played up the marijuana angle.
The BBC emphasized Bush’s discretion in addressing the subject, saying “Bush hints he tried marijuana.” So did Aljazeera: “Tapes hint Bush smoked marijuana.” Swissinfo, a news site in Geneva, asked “Did Bush smoke pot?”
In Australia, the Sydney Morning Herald focused on Bush’s reasoning for not talking about the issue publicly. Bush worried young people would copy his cannabis use, the paper said.
From South America to the Middle East to Asia, other news sites concluded that Bush’s statements amounted to a confession.
“Bush confessed to having smoked marijuana in his youth,” declared Las Ultimas Noticias (in Spanish), a Chilean tabloid. “Bush’s Marijuana Confession on Television,” said Zaman, a leading Turkish daily. “Bush admits using marijuana,” said Rediff, a news portal in India. In Tokyo, Japan Today said, “Secret tapes indicate Bush used drugs as youth.”
A few foreign sites offered more light-hearted headlines. “Bush’s own ‘smoking gun’,” said the South Africa broadcast outlet, News24. The Economic Times of India sounded less than shocked: “Oh boy! George may have puffed on marijuana” was their headline.
In contrast, most of the traditional leaders of American journalism —  the New York Times, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times and the TV networks — made no mention of drugs in their headlines, although all reported the substance of what Bush said on the tapes.
The Times’ story carried the headline “In Secretly Taped Conversations, Glimpses of the Future President” and mentioned marijuana in the third paragraph. The Post followed up the next day with “Secret Tapes Not Meant to Harm, Writer Says.” Bush’s drug comments were mentioned in the fifth paragraph of The Post story. Among national U.S. news outlets, only ABCNews.com used the M-word in a headline declaring, “New Tapes Say Bush May Have Smoked Marijuana.”
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cherry tomatoes will do
Date: February 24, 2005 at 2:33:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter, I must respectfully disagree with you about Ibogaine having a placebo effect. I have been through just about every withdrawal method there is, and I have to say that Ibogaine helped out in a big way. I’d do it for the introspection that it gave me anyway, even if it didn’t work for withdrawal, but it does. Or it did for me. It was well worth the effort. I never tried the scuba method, but I tried sex, alcohol, benzo’s, nothing, everything, hospitals, bars, home, hotel rooms, they all sucked while withdrawing way more than what I did with Ibogaine. I never felt well enough afterwards to stop for very long. I had to work to keep going. I had to use to keep going to work. It was a vicious circle. Call it what you will, but Ibogaine has given me freedom, I don’t have to spend all my money on dope anymore.       Randy

From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: [Ibogaine] cherry tomatoes will do
Date: February 24, 2005 at 1:53:00 PM EST
To: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee, the tool bit, I agree.Many drugs or theaters of whatever are learning tools for life sometimes, drugs are a special category.
Just as some drugs play BIG in these eternal drug scares, showing up like eartquakes all the time (the thirties/sixties marihuana,the seventies heroin, the eighties crack,just behind us xtc, now meth, the next one will be…….?)some drugs also play BIG as the incarnation of good. Both are quite ridiculous and only represent their symbolic meanings. Its interesting to analyse these meanings.They have really nothing to do with their varied chemical properties or varied types of use.
Crack used to ‘catalyse’ as all the other drug scare drugs the image of loss of individuality, our most holy western utopic characteristic. Ibo catalyses the ‘refinding’ of it.
People need no drugs to leave pattersn of drug use if they seriously wish to leave them.Easing the pain of coming off heroin happens by self regulated tapering of till a little and then sit out the flu. Or go to the Fidji Islands with your old mother and sweat out the illness, while scuba diving and munching cherry tomatoes. ( I am a bit sarcastic here, but not much!) But, if using a drug gives the feeling it helps, fine. But know that it is placebo that works ( exactly like nicorette).
So, I have a very distanced view on ‘medications’ to leave drug use patters, any way, thanks for reading closely/
pc

PS I sometimes use the image of crossing the street in London that kills so many people from the continent.They simply look the wrong way when they start crossing and get hit by cars coming from the wrong side of the street.Habits can kill, and changing habit is damn difficult sometimes.But some drug use patterns are nothing else but learned patterns of coping, and if people have not learned anything else, they may get killed in the Londontown of our lives.

Peter,

You unwillingness to look beyond the cliche of a drug is quite impressive. You also seem to avoid particular discussions. I guess if there were a line of doors which said cocaine, heroin, mdma and ibogaine, you would be able to explain to a panel why each door is philosophically the same. Useful ….

Ibogaine is nothing other than a TOOL that a person can use to rework their inner world with the help of “dare i say as it makes me out to be simpleminded or is it just that I am humbled by its benevolence” spiritual entities and ones own soul – assuming you care for that kind of thing? If not I can see how it would be in your vested interest to conjur levelling arguments to detract from this aspect. There is no veneration of ibogaine per see but there is veneration of what it catalyses.

Please, if you can make substantive comparisons between its effectiveness and the effectiveness of other “medications” to this end,  can you let the list know as it pisses me off to be so pathetic. You know what I mean. I simply think its a drag that I no longer want to kill myself or get out of this world but actually really feel deep and meaningful experiences. Hell fuck this ibogaine its a bunch of crap and you are right we should be under your banner and not stealing the show from the real issues.

Thank you for your enlightened discussion – well researched!

Lee

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl> wrote:
Okay. I agree. Most are no fools, but this
veneration of a drug ( by at least some of them)
is quite pathetic sometimes.

No, not curious at all
pc

>
>
>PS: Peter: “The ibo clan” isn’t all a bunch of
>blithering fools who just found god. It has
>every bit a place in helping heavy drug-users as
>does legalization. Are you curious to try it?
>


>————————————————-
>Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>University of Amsterdam
>
>Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
>mail address: postbox 94208
>1090 GE Amsterdam
>
>email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>fax +31-20-525 4317
>
>World Wide ! Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 1:27:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please don’t!
pc

At 09:51 -0800 24-02-2005, Steven Anker wrote:

“ibogaine is a bunch of crazy white guys.” True. I wish more of
these crazy white guys would go to Gabon and hang with the Bwiti.
Cheers,
Steve

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 1:19:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Steve
Wouldnt you say that Ibogaine (talking only addcition interuption not spirtual enlightment) is one of the best substance out there to curtail addiction.  You are right 5 months is not a long time of being clean but do you realize that most people wouldnt have those 5 months if it wasnt for ibogaine.   You are corect in saying ‘only you cannot put a rig in your arm ‘however when you dont see that life can have a meaning ie through ibogaine– why even stop shooting up in the first place.  When i came on this list a week ago i wasnt astonished that majority of people had the same feelings/emotions/ideas about ibogaine….  It might seem like a cult or whatever but thats just labeling it again and limiting its full potential….the peyote religion in north america can be seen as a clan too but its all for the benefit of oneself/others….you say that if ibogaine was legal it would become a hazard —but with any powerfull medication resposiblity is the first key—-you are right many people would die but what does that tell you? it tells me they were not serious about its side effects …….many people die from methadone overdose etc its a fact of life —people who are irresponsible pay for their consequences===does that mean everybody should pay for other peoples stupidity —I really dont think that the reverence for ibogaine is strange i think not having respect for it is plain ignorance….just my thoughts

Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:51:44 -0800 Randy, It is pushing it to say ibogaine “has helped everyone who has taken it in some fashion or another.” Irresponsible as well. It leads to the impression that everyone should take it. Ask the people who have died from it. On Howard’s site you can read negative experiences. I’m sorry, most people who take it go back to dope, 5 months is not that long a time after kicking. Of course it helps, but it is not the only way. To push it as this magic cure in a pill doesn’t help anyone, addiction is complicated and the more that is understood about it, the better. The problem I have with the people who sell it as this cure in a pill is that it makes it sound as if you don’t have to do anything else other than take the ibo and WHAM! CURED! If you don’t do some other work, chances are you will go back to the dark master. All you have to do is take it again? And again? Yes, it has helped numerous people detox, but are you doing any favors by not placing responsibility on the user? It’s only the individual who can make the decision to stop, only you can not put a needle in your arm, not an African root bark, not a higher power, not a loved one. Yes it is powerful medicine, a tool. There is no one way, we are all different. Look, I felt the same way three years ago… Remember Preston talking about how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while ago? I’ve been trolling around this list for a while and there is always a new crop of people claiming “Ibogaine is the shit, it saved me, everyone needs to take it!” A few months later they disappear. It is an option and is not for everyone. To say that it has an efficacy of %70 is false and irresponsible. There are plenty of people who have had miserable experiences with ibogaine, they are not on this list or going to a conference. It has to be looked at in a balanced way. I think the efficacy would improve if we figure out better systems for helping afterwards. Plenty of addicts stop all on their own. Ibogaine is spreading and it is easier to get and take than ever before. Not that long ago it would cost you $30,000 to do it, now it’s allot cheaper. It is spreading, even in America you no longer have to pay for a round trip airfare to do it. I can’t see any way it will ever go off of schedule 1… The way the system works here, it is an impossibility. I wish I were wrong. Maybe the way it was meant to be is as an underground sort of a thing. I guess my fear is that with the screaming dogma that “Ibogaine is god in a pill and every addict MUST take it, it is the BEST” ibogaine will be derailed and no one will get any help from it. A few high profile deaths will put it back real quick. Think about the effect the New York Times article had when Howard took the reporter to witness a treatment and the patient died. Ibogaine has a strange energy that we do not understand. I can understand how Peter thinks that this veneration of a drug is strange and I don’t know how helpful it is. It would easily appear to be clanish and cult-like. Talking with Patrick he said something like “ibogaine is a bunch of crazy white guys.” True. I wish more of these crazy white guys would go to Gabon and hang with the Bwiti. Why not go to the source? We don’t know everything. Cheers, Steve /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 12:51:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy,

It is pushing it to say ibogaine “has helped everyone who has taken it in some fashion or another.” Irresponsible as well. It leads to the impression that everyone should take it. Ask the people who have died from it. On Howard’s site you can read negative experiences. I’m sorry, most people who take it go back to dope, 5 months is not that long a time after kicking. Of course it helps, but it is not the only way. To push it as this magic cure in a pill doesn’t help anyone, addiction is complicated and the more that is understood about it, the better.

The problem I have with the people who sell it as this cure in a pill is that it makes it sound as if you don’t have to do anything else other than take the ibo and WHAM! CURED! If you don’t do some other work, chances are you will go back to the dark master. All you have to do is take it again? And again? Yes, it has helped numerous people detox, but are you doing any favors by not placing responsibility on the user? It’s only the individual who can make the decision to stop, only you can not put a needle in your arm, not an African root bark, not a higher power, not a loved one. Yes it is powerful medicine, a tool. There is no one way, we are all different. Look, I felt the same way three years ago… Remember Preston talking about how wonderful ibogaine was in curing his opiate use a little while ago?

I’ve been trolling around this list for a while and there is always a new crop of people claiming “Ibogaine is the shit, it saved me, everyone needs to take it!” A few months later they disappear. It is an option and is not for everyone. To say that it has an efficacy of %70 is false and irresponsible. There are plenty of people who have had miserable experiences with ibogaine, they are not on this list or going to a conference. It has to be looked at in a balanced way. I think the efficacy would improve if we figure out better systems for helping afterwards. Plenty of addicts stop all on their own.

Ibogaine is spreading and it is easier to get and take than ever before. Not that long ago it would cost you $30,000 to do it, now it’s allot cheaper. It is spreading, even in America you no longer have to pay for a round trip airfare to do it. I can’t see any way it will ever go off of schedule 1… The way the system works here, it is an impossibility. I wish I were wrong. Maybe the way it was meant to be is as an underground sort of a thing. I guess my fear is that with the screaming dogma that “Ibogaine is god in a pill and every addict MUST take it, it is the BEST” ibogaine will be derailed and no one will get any help from it. A few high profile deaths will put it back real quick. Think about the effect the New York Times article had when Howard took the reporter to witness a treatment and the patient died. Ibogaine has a strange energy that we do not understand.

I can understand how Peter thinks that this veneration of a drug is strange and I don’t know how helpful it is. It would easily appear to be clanish and cult-like.

Talking with Patrick he said something like “ibogaine is a bunch of crazy white guys.” True. I wish more of these crazy white guys would go to Gabon and hang with the Bwiti. Why not go to the source? We don’t know everything.

Cheers,
Steve

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 12:50:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Ekki
I would agree that life is a big fucken mystery—-if you dont examine it —LOL :}

Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:52:32 +0100 Am 24.02.2005 um 16:02 schrieb matthew zielinski: >Dear Ekki > >You say problems occur now and can only be solved right now– what >im saying is if you dont solve them now they will will only grow on >you then after a period of time they become your past —wouldnt you >agree>? wouldnt you agree also that no one will teach you as much as >the book of life–looking for guidance to books/philosopers/etc is >an action that requires great cotemplation… > > > >Warmest Regards > >Matt > dear matt life, books, philosophers, yesterdays, teachers and emails oftentimes deceive us 🙂 wouldnīt you agree? yours ekki /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Open your e-mail without having to worry about viruses with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 11:16:11 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy !!
I love your E-Mail, You got balls, man. :-))
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Steve, Dana doesn’t smoke weed at all in the morning, but I do. This whole thing with Peter has been enlightening to say the least. After hearing all the info at the conference, and listening to what every junkie who talked to me had to say, I have come to a more resolute conclusion about Ibogaine, and what has to be done to make it available. Right now, I don’t give a fuck about weed and making it legal, we can all get weed when we want it. That can’t be said for Ibogaine. Ibogaine gave me some control over my drug use, and has helped everyone who has taken it in some fashion or another. It’s medicine. We need it. I don’t think anyone should piss on anything that will help another individual in a time when they feel the most desperate. I’ve been there. I hate that shit. It’s like walking around with a piano hanging over your head held up by a very thin string. You just know that that fucker is going to fall, and at the worst possible time. All this political wrangling over Ibogaine has gotten a bit stale if you ask me. There is no question that everyone who has used Ibogaine has gotten something positive out of it, whether they know it or not. Fuck, just trying to better your life is a positive step. You can go out and drink till you black out and die legally in the US, but you can’t use the best substance known to man to help get over an addiction if you so choose. That’s just plain fucked up. It ‘aint rite. It’s been 5 months for me now and this isn’t a noribogaine glow thing. I mean what the fuck I say. Legal or not, Ibogaine should be there for people who want to use it. Call it mind control, or the power of suggestion, or just call it tripping your ass off and getting over an addiction. Semantics doesn’t matter, this stuff works like nothing else. I challenge any mother fucker who says that Ibogaine is a party drug to take a 16 mg per kg dose and go to a rave. Better take a bucket and a mattress. Patrick or someone else may have more info than me, but I don’t think that anyone could take enough Ibogaine to have a psychoactive reaction and walk around and party. You can take a shit load of Dramamine and trip, big deal. Matter of fact some of the hardest tripping I ever did was on Dramamine. I saw big polka dot boxes rolling in the fields of KY, and I saw a man laying under a car that was on fire, working on the transmission. This was on legally obtained Dramamine. I think we should all try and help, or get the fuck outta the way.     Randy

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 10:52:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 24.02.2005 um 16:02 schrieb matthew zielinski:

Dear Ekki

You say problems occur now and can only be solved right now– what im saying is if you dont solve them now they will will only grow on you then after a period of time they become your past —wouldnt you agree>? wouldnt you agree also that no one will teach you as much as the book of life–looking for guidance to books/philosopers/etc is an action that requires great cotemplation…

Warmest Regards

Matt

dear matt
life, books, philosophers, yesterdays, teachers and emails oftentimes deceive us 🙂
wouldn´t you agree?
yours ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 10:08:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

” I challenge any mother fucker who says that Ibogaine is a party drug to take a 16 mg per kg dose and go to a rave. Better take a bucket and a mattress.”
LOL:}}
Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:32:57 EST Steve, Dana doesn’t smoke weed at all in the morning, but I do. This whole thing with Peter has been enlightening to say the least. After hearing all the info at the conference, and listening to what every junkie who talked to me had to say, I have come to a more resolute conclusion about Ibogaine, and what has to be done to make it available. Right now, I don’t give a fuck about weed and making it legal, we can all get weed when we want it. That can’t be said for Ibogaine. Ibogaine gave me some control over my drug use, and has helped everyone who has taken it in some fashion or another. It’s medicine. We need it. I don’t think anyone should piss on anything that will help another individual in a time when they feel the most desperate. I’ve been there. I hate that shit. It’s like walking around with a piano hanging over your head held up by a very thin string. You just know that that fucker is going to fall, and at the worst possible time. All this political wrangling over Ibogaine has gotten a bit stale if you ask me. There is no question that everyone who has used Ibogaine has gotten something positive out of it, whether they know it or not. Fuck, just trying to better your life is a positive step. You can go out and drink till you black out and die legally in the US, but you can’t use the best substance known to man to help get over an addiction if you so choose. That’s just plain fucked up. It ‘aint rite. It’s been 5 months for me now and this isn’t a noribogaine glow thing. I mean what the fuck I say. Legal or not, Ibogaine should be there for people who want to use it. Call it mind control, or the power of suggestion, or just call it tripping your ass off and getting over an addiction. Semantics doesn’t matter, this stuff works like nothing else. I challenge any mother fucker who says that Ibogaine is a party drug to take a 16 mg per kg dose and go to a rave. Better take a bucket and a mattress. Patrick or someone else may have more info than me, but I don’t think that anyone could take enough Ibogaine to have a psychoactive reaction and walk around and party. You can take a shit load of Dramamine and trip, big deal. Matter of fact some of the hardest tripping I ever did was on Dramamine. I saw big polka dot boxes rolling in the fields of KY, and I saw a man laying under a car that was on fire, working on the transmission. This was on legally obtained Dramamine. I think we should all try and help, or get the fuck outta the way. Randy

Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 10:02:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Ekki
You say problems occur now and can only be solved right now– what im saying is if you dont solve them now they will will only grow on you then after a period of time they become your past —wouldnt you agree>? wouldnt you agree also that no one will teach you as much as the book of life–looking for guidance to books/philosopers/etc is an action that requires great cotemplation…
Warmest Regards
Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:08:00 +0100 hi matt sorry to you and lee. i just donīt know how science can help spirituality. i donīt think its necessary for everyone to examin their past, since problems occcuring now can only be solved right now. also your past never ends, its kind of fiction anyway. trying to get all past issues solved is like drying out a river by scooping water out of it. thats just my opinion. fondest regards ekki Am 24.02.2005 um 01:38 schrieb matthew zielinski: > > >Hi > >Tell me whats funny about finding your way in this bewildred >universe by resolving your past…Do you not think that the MAJOR >problems that one has to deal with began as a small puerile >nothing….i think coming to grips with your past ie anylazying why >we did this –why we didnt do that etc is only going to make you a >better human being, one who is in totall balance with the >univere/self…What i think is funny is puting a label on it >calling it this and that ..it is what it is …..no offense man but >real change can only occur while reworking your past(especially if >you know you erred but are guilty/ashamed/scared to admit >it) —-how will you know not to repeat those same mistakes again >if you havent learned/examind them/ > > > > > > >Warmest Regards > >Love—-Matt— > >  >—-Original Message Follows—- From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: > [Ibogaine] technical questions Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:03:35 >+0100 lee, what you describe sounds just like scientology (no >offense, i just think itīs funny): reworking of past traumas, >combination of science and spirituality. then becoming ‘clear’ and >’OT’. Am 23.02.2005 um 12:21 schrieb Lee Albert: >LMAO >What I mean >on my web site is that my search for a way home is ended >because >after trying everything from: >1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary > >2. Primal therapy >3. Rebirthing etc >4. Counselling >5. Endless >travelling >6. Reading >7. Isolation >8. Vegetarianism >…… >I >finally found a way to enter my deepest self, examine my past, > >transform it and come out changed and forward moving via eboga. > >I use the terms seek, transform and expand somewhat cheek in >tongue >:-). What I am saying is that for me I have had to rebuild >my inner >and outer world by working through all the developmental >traumas >that have warped my ability to relate in all sorts of >ways. This >takes time but I find it a worthwhile exercise as I >grow deeper in >myself, my relationship to life and friends and my >understanding of >spirituality. Fortunately, I moved beyond the >scientific position >and had the humilty to reexamine much which is >dismissed by science >- spirituality. I do this scientifically. You >could say I practise >spiritual science. >My search for a way has >ended but the journey is not over! >Lee > >ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> >wrote: >lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting >communiques > from interzone.those signals grow more faint while >doctor > benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to >the >signal…. > >i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all >the time so that 6mg >is >always the best dose for you? >the other >thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that > your >search is complete like youīve been led home already. for >what > >purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and > > expand.”” ? >fondest regards ekki > > > Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now >and get the first two months FREE* >/]=——————————————————————– >-=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] >\]=——————————————————————– >-=[/ /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna
Date: February 24, 2005 at 8:03:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry, forgot to change the subject heading!
—– Original Message —–
From: Hannah Clay
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.

Hi Donna,

I’m still struggling financially and still wanting to do the Ibogaine (feels like forever).  You said Brian cost £600 plus his expenses.  Does this include your Ibogaine?  How much approx. would his ‘costs’ be?  Wouldn’t he be coming over from abroad so surely his costs would be pretty high?  Let me know anyway.  In an ideal world I’d go to Sara’s but I don’t think I’ll ever be able to afford that in the near future (btw how much does it cost to go over and be treated by Sara?) so I’m looking at trying to arrange a session in England even if I end up buying it over the Net.

And how are you doing?  Are you back on the Subutex yet?  I really hope you’re well.  I’m a bit crappy. It’s been nearly 3 months since my boyfriend dumped me and I’m still gutted by it and cry all the time.  Where as he moved on to a new girl in 2 weeks!  That’s what hurts the most.  I’m trying to understand myself but it’s so difficult.  I was clean (apart from the Sub) for a month but recently got back into it for about a month and it seems ten times harder to stop it now.  It doesn’t help that my dealer keeps ringing me!

I think now would be a really helpful time for me to do Ibogaine though I would like to have money for a booster dose after if necessary.  I could afford to just buy some over the Net but I’d rather do it properly than waste the experience.  And I’ve got a hell of alot of shit to work through!

Anyway, I hope you are well?  I still haven’t caught up on the list-I’m 1491 emails behind!

Love Hannah
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.

Hi Steve

I am looking to do the ibo in the new year there is a guy called Brian who comes to your home to treat you he charges £600 plus his expenses are you in the UK???  talk to Jasen about what he experienced he was so helpful.  I wish you all the luck in the world

:Love donna

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:43:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 24.02.2005 um 11:32 schrieb BiscuitBoy714@aol.com:

I challenge any mother fucker who says that Ibogaine is a party drug to take a 16 mg per kg dose and go to a rave. Better take a bucket and a mattress. Patrick or someone else may have more info than me, but I don’t think that anyone could take enough Ibogaine to have a psychoactive reaction and walk around and party.

music and dancing is a very spiritual thing to me, and if initated bwiti people can take little amounts of ibo and dance all night, we should be able to do so, too

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:35:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Now, if you feel that these things are a waste of time then I do humbly ask that you suffer my idiosyncracies in the hope that by making my life, and those I love around me, happier, I am helping in my own way to reduce the number of atomic bombs which will be dropped any day now by people who believe that theirs is the future, the present is simply a tool and the past is a foreign land they prefer to forget.

A big hug to you mate!!!

to you, too
i feel all of us here want to reduce suffering in this world and this direction is what is most important

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] f%#* your past
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:32:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

jason your mails are always so cool and uplifting!
-impersonation done by the Ghost of William Burroughs-
i found it this morning http://www.netherworld.com/~mgabrys/william/
contains lots of soundbites with wsb´s humor.

play it all back, pay it all back

now i´m using junk as a basic illustration. extend it. i am reality and i am hooked, on, reality

maybe the target is not to discover who we are but to refuse who we are(ups thats foucault)

Am 24.02.2005 um 11:52 schrieb knowone knowwhere:

Writer chooses Words.
Water Melon Sun Flower.
Haiku’s set framework.

I think the past is the framework for the present.
I agree ‘the Past’ is not an excuse to fail.  But I
feel, recognition and acceptance of the past are vital
to walk through it (this doesn’t mean relying on ‘a
sick ego’, using past as an excuse to fail is no
differnent then choosing to fail.  The trick is
Listening good enough to see clearly the Click(s) in
the situation.

Mp3 converter: who’s doing the Burroughs
impersonation??

Hope you’re doing good.

Cheers,
Jason

&#8238;&#1494;&#1512;&#1501;,
&#1490;&#1497;&#1488;&#1493;&#1514;,
&#1494;&#1512;&#1497;&#1502;&#1512;&#8236;

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:28:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
The situation is just so fucked up.

No doubt about that, for sure.  Your funny Randy;)
I won’t stay up nights wondering if I can blow you now
lol

I guess this is where I am coming from with that:
Some people who are so busy trying to maintain drug
habits in prohibition enviroment don’t really have
time to look up stuff unless cornered or rich.  So the
people that sometimes will read things (and to me
vital people if we wish to not preach to choir) are
the family.  Making the benifits seem out of context
by compairing it to this or that hallucinagen can
obscure ‘the message’ to someone not coming from a
drug background, and in fact hates all things drug
related because ‘that drug culture’ is what it started
with from their perspective.  So I wonder, if a
Trinity Broadcast Network member feel comfortable
suggesting ibogaine as an option for their strung out
kids.
Scientist and people exchanging information is good
for that.   That one of the many reasons it is awesome
to have Cohen posting here.  Saying he is an obsticle
doesn’t help widdat.  The iboYenta in me has really
been enjoying the exchanges between them.
So tell me about COSM, how was it??  Did anyone
record it?

Take care,
Jason

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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] -ot- Re: Happy Birthday from Howard Stern Vagina Corner
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:07:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Howard Stern Vagina Corner Mailer
<webmaster@howardstern.com> wrote:
Hello ibogaine,

We at Howard Stern Vagina Corner would like to wish
you a happy birthday today!

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:03:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy, keep up the Good work. Here’s one of the
first blooms of Spring I found in the Garden here.
It smells Good.

hey noone, sitting on the fence isn’t always an
option dood.
You do decent things in your nitch and nobody fucks
with you, so let them find their nitch.  Find the
Sim’s   or the secrete service will kick down your
door and fuck up your crystal arangement,  they tend
to like planting fake drugs in nowhere land.  So play
nice. Live and let live is your whole thing I thought.

— knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hey Randy,
I don’t think you’re dedicated enough to our
Sacred
Political Offensive.  Since obviouslly ‘the mission’
is more important then the individual, it is
essential
that you score some hcl, call every media outlet in
town and invite them to the school, the day D.A.R.E.
shows up for their ‘lesson’, then Dose Ibogaine in
from of them all.  If you aren’t willing to do this
then that means you aren’t fufilling your Sacred
Mission.

(Iboga is a Spiritual Being.  Not a political
agenda.)

…..

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
One more thing. All you DEA agents, FBI, or people
who are generally against
anything that will help an addict, let me say just
this, and I’ll try and be
objective and unemotional.    BLOW ME, Ibogaine
will
not be denied.
Randy

 

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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] NYT Book Review Advert Sunday 27st Feb
Date: February 24, 2005 at 7:02:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have had an offer to keep a copy for me. Thanks.

Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Dear List,

Just wanted to let you know that an ad will appear this coming Sunday 27th (according to my information!) in the New York Times Book Review Section for the book Amazing Grace.

Its not a big deal but if you are reading the paper you might like to catch it.

BTW anyone in the NY area that can save me a copy of the Review please do. I’ll send you my address off list.

Cheers,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 6:55:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jason, I guess you didn’t get anything from any conference you went to. That’s a shame. So what, I feel empowered today. You can blow me too. In a nice loving kind of way. With a humm going. Your right of course. I’ll try and keep my ego in check. Thanx for the reminder. The situation is just so fucked up.           Randy

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 6:46:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Good for you Randy!

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Steve, Dana doesn’t smoke weed at all in the morning, but I do. This whole thing with Peter has been enlightening to say the least. After hearing all the info at the conference, and listening to what every junkie who talked to me had to say, I have come to a more resolute conclusion about Ibogaine, and what has to be done to make it available. Right now, I don’t give a fuck about weed and making it legal, we can all get weed when we want it. That can’t be said for Ibogaine. Ibogaine gave me some control over my drug use, and has helped everyone who has taken it in some fashion or another. It’s medicine. We need it. I don’t think anyone should piss on anything that will help another individual in a time when they feel the most desperate. I’ve been there. I hate that shit. It’s like walking around with a piano hanging over your head held up by a very thin string. You just know that that fucker is going to fall, and at the worst possible time. All this political wrangling over Ibogaine has gotten a bit stale if you ask me. There is no question that everyone who has used Ibogaine has gotten something positive out of it, whether they know it or not. Fuck, just trying to better your life is a positive step. You can go out and drink till you black out and die legally in the US, but you can’t use the best substance known to man to help get over an addiction if you so choose. That’s just plain fucked up. It ‘aint rite. It’s been 5 months for me now and this isn’t a noribogaine glow thing. I mean what the fuck I say. Legal or not, Ibogaine should be there for people who want to use it. Call it mind control, or the power of suggestion, or just call it tripping your ass off and getting over an addiction. Semantics doesn’t matter, this stuff works like nothing else. I challenge any mother fucker who says that Ibogaine is a party drug to take a 16 mg per kg dose and go to a rave. Better take a bucket and a mattress. Patrick or someone else may have more info than me, but I don’t think that anyone could take enough Ibogaine to have a psychoactive reaction and walk around and party. You can take a shit load of Dramamine and trip, big deal. Matter of fact some of the hardest tripping I ever did was on Dramamine. I saw big polka dot boxes rolling in the fields of KY, and I saw a man laying under a car that was on fire, working on the transmission. This was on legally obtained Dramamine. I think we should all try and help, or get the fuck outta the way.     Randy

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 6:41:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter,

You unwillingness to look beyond the cliche of a drug is quite impressive. You also seem to avoid particular discussions. I guess if there were a line of doors which said cocaine, heroin, mdma and ibogaine, you would be able to explain to a panel why each door is philosophically the same. Useful ….

Ibogaine is nothing other than a TOOL that a person can use to rework their inner world with the help of “dare i say as it makes me out to be simpleminded or is it just that I am humbled by its benevolence” spiritual entities and ones own soul – assuming you care for that kind of thing? If not I can see how it would be in your vested interest to conjur levelling arguments to detract from this aspect. There is no veneration of ibogaine per see but there is veneration of what it catalyses.

Please, if you can make substantive comparisons between its effectiveness and the effectiveness of other “medications” to this end,  can you let the list know as it pisses me off to be so pathetic. You know what I mean. I simply think its a drag that I no longer want to kill myself or get out of this world but actually really feel deep and meaningful experiences. Hell fuck this ibogaine its a bunch of crap and you are right we should be under your banner and not stealing the show from the real issues.

Thank you for your enlightened discussion – well researched!

Lee

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl> wrote:
Okay. I agree. Most are no fools, but this
veneration of a drug ( by at least some of them)
is quite pathetic sometimes.

No, not curious at all
pc

>
>
>PS: Peter: “The ibo clan” isn’t all a bunch of
>blithering fools who just found god. It has
>every bit a place in helping heavy drug-users as
>does legalization. Are you curious to try it?
>


>————————————————-
>Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>University of Amsterdam
>
>Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
>mail address: postbox 94208
>1090 GE Amsterdam
>
>email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>fax +31-20-525 4317
>
>World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>languages)

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 6:24:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki,

Thanks for putting over your opinion.

Everyone has their own way and if you have found yours and it works I say good on ya.

In working through my shit I have healed a lifetime of hurt and pain between myself and others very close people to me. I have learned what my life was about and why I am the way I am. I have learned about the meaning of a path in life and I have connected to angels and saints – some of whom are on this list.

Now, if you feel that these things are a waste of time then I do humbly ask that you suffer my idiosyncracies in the hope that by making my life, and those I love around me, happier, I am helping in my own way to reduce the number of atomic bombs which will be dropped any day now by people who believe that theirs is the future, the present is simply a tool and the past is a foreign land they prefer to forget.

A big hug to you mate!!!

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
hi matt
sorry to you and lee. i just don´t know how science can help
spirituality. i don´t think its necessary for everyone to examin their
past, since problems occcuring now can only be solved right now. also
your past never ends, its kind of fiction anyway. trying to get all
past issues solved is like drying out a river by scooping water out of
it. thats just my opinion.
fondest regards ekki

Am 24.02.2005 um 01:38 schrieb matthew zielinski:

>
>
> Hi
>
> Tell me whats funny about finding your way in this bewildred universe
> by resolving your past…Do you not think that the MAJOR problems that
> one has to deal with began as a small puerile nothing….i think
> coming to grips with your past ie anylazying why we did this –why we
> didnt do that etc is only going to make you a better human being, one
> who is in totall balance with the univere/self…What i think is funny
> is puting a label on it calling it this and that ..it is what it is
> …..no offense man but real change can only occur while reworking
> your past(especially if you know you erred but are
> guilty/ashamed/scared to admit it) —-how will you know not to repeat
> those same mistakes again if you havent learned/examind them/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Warmest Regards
>
> Love—-Matt—
>
>
> —-Original Message Follows—- From: ekki
> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re:
> [Ibogaine] technical questions Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:03:35 +0100
> lee, what you describe sounds just like scientology (no offense, i
> just think it´s funny): reworking of past traumas, combination of
> science and spirituality. then becoming ‘clear’ and ‘OT’. Am
> 23.02.2005 um 12:21 schrieb Lee Albert: >LMAO >What I mean on my web
> site is that my search for a way home is ended >because after trying
> everything from: >1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary >2. Primal
> therapy >3. Rebirthing etc >4. Counselling >5. Endless travelling >6.
> Reading >7. Isolation >8. Vegetarianism >…… >I finally found a way
> to enter my deepest self, examine my past, >transform it and come out
> changed and forward moving via eboga. >I use the terms seek, transform
> and expand somewhat cheek in tongue >:-). What I am saying is that for
> me I have had to rebuild my inner >and outer world by working through
> all the developmental traumas >that have warped my ability to relate
> in all sorts of ways. This >takes time but I find it a worthwhile
> exercise as I grow deeper in >myself, my relationship to life and
> friends and my understanding of >spirituality. Fortunately, I moved
> beyond the scientific position >and had the humilty to reexamine much
> which is dismissed by science >- spirituality. I do this
> scientifically. You could say I practise >spiritual science. >My
> search for a way has ended but the journey is not over! >Lee > >ekki
> wrote: >lee, your name makes me think of agent lee
> transmitting communiques > from interzone.those signals grow more
> faint while doctor > benway gains more power and eddie the sponge
> tunes in to the >signal…. > >i wonder if your tolerance stays the
> same all the time so that 6mg >is >always the best dose for you? >the
> other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that > your
> search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for >what >
> purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and >
> expand.”” ? >fondest regards ekki >
>
> Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and
> get the first two months FREE*
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 6:17:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,
I don’t think you’re dedicated enough to our Sacred
Political Offensive.  Since obviouslly ‘the mission’
is more important then the individual, it is essential
that you score some hcl, call every media outlet in
town and invite them to the school, the day D.A.R.E.
shows up for their ‘lesson’, then Dose Ibogaine in
from of them all.  If you aren’t willing to do this
then that means you aren’t fufilling your Sacred
Mission.

(Iboga is a Spiritual Being.  Not a political
agenda.)

…..

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
One more thing. All you DEA agents, FBI, or people
who are generally against
anything that will help an addict, let me say just
this, and I’ll try and be
objective and unemotional.    BLOW ME, Ibogaine will
not be denied.
Randy

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] f%#* your past
Date: February 24, 2005 at 5:52:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Writer chooses Words.
Water Melon Sun Flower.
Haiku’s set framework.

I think the past is the framework for the present.
I agree ‘the Past’ is not an excuse to fail.  But I
feel, recognition and acceptance of the past are vital
to walk through it (this doesn’t mean relying on ‘a
sick ego’, using past as an excuse to fail is no
differnent then choosing to fail.  The trick is
Listening good enough to see clearly the Click(s) in
the situation.

Mp3 converter: who’s doing the Burroughs
impersonation??

Hope you’re doing good.

Cheers,
Jason

&#8238;&#1494;&#1512;&#1501;,
&#1490;&#1497;&#1488;&#1493;&#1514;,
&#1494;&#1512;&#1497;&#1502;&#1512;&#8236;

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 5:48:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki,
Dont worry about it. Its definitely not scientiolgy. Its about self knowledge and self (soul) direction. The labels do not do justice to what I am trying to describe which is basically spirituality based on experience that gives results.
We are in a time of awakening and ibogaine (eboga) is a major gateway.
Anyway, thank you for pointing that out as I think I will have to find another 3 sec soundbite label to put out there for people who dont think beyond the 2 words in front of them.
Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
lee, what you describe sounds just like scientology (no offense, i just
think it´s funny): reworking of past traumas, combination of science
and spirituality. then becoming ‘clear’ and ‘OT’.

Am 23.02.2005 um 12:21 schrieb Lee Albert:

> LMAO
> What I mean on my web site is that my search for a way home is ended
> because after trying everything from:
> 1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary
> 2. Primal therapy
> 3. Rebirthing etc
> 4. Counselling
> 5. Endless travelling
> 6. Reading
> 7. Isolation
> 8. Vegetarianism
> ……
> I finally found a way to enter my deepest self, examine my past,
> transform it and come out changed and forward moving via eboga.
> I use the terms seek, transform and expand somewhat cheek in tongue
> :-). What I am saying is that for me I have had to rebuild my inner
> and outer world by working through all the developmental traumas that
> have warped my ability to relate in all sorts of ways. This takes
> time but I find it a worthwhile exercise as I grow deeper in myself,
> my relationship to life and friends and my understanding of
> spirituality. Fortunately, I moved beyond the scientific position and
> had the humilty to reexamine much which is dismissed by science –
> spirituality. I do this scientifically. You could say I practise
> spiritual science.
> My search for a way has ended but the journey is not over!
> Lee
>
> ekki wrote:
> lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting communiques
> from interzone.those signals grow more faint while doctor
> benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to the
> signal….
>
> i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all the time so that 6mg is
> always the best dose for you?
> the other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that
> your search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for what
> purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and
> expand.”” ?
> fondest regards ekki
>

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 5:46:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

One more thing. All you DEA agents, FBI, or people who are generally against anything that will help an addict, let me say just this, and I’ll try and be objective and unemotional.    BLOW ME, Ibogaine will not be denied.             Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 5:32:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Steve, Dana doesn’t smoke weed at all in the morning, but I do. This whole thing with Peter has been enlightening to say the least. After hearing all the info at the conference, and listening to what every junkie who talked to me had to say, I have come to a more resolute conclusion about Ibogaine, and what has to be done to make it available. Right now, I don’t give a fuck about weed and making it legal, we can all get weed when we want it. That can’t be said for Ibogaine. Ibogaine gave me some control over my drug use, and has helped everyone who has taken it in some fashion or another. It’s medicine. We need it. I don’t think anyone should piss on anything that will help another individual in a time when they feel the most desperate. I’ve been there. I hate that shit. It’s like walking around with a piano hanging over your head held up by a very thin string. You just know that that fucker is going to fall, and at the worst possible time. All this political wrangling over Ibogaine has gotten a bit stale if you ask me. There is no question that everyone who has used Ibogaine has gotten something positive out of it, whether they know it or not. Fuck, just trying to better your life is a positive step. You can go out and drink till you black out and die legally in the US, but you can’t use the best substance known to man to help get over an addiction if you so choose. That’s just plain fucked up. It ‘aint rite. It’s been 5 months for me now and this isn’t a noribogaine glow thing. I mean what the fuck I say. Legal or not, Ibogaine should be there for people who want to use it. Call it mind control, or the power of suggestion, or just call it tripping your ass off and getting over an addiction. Semantics doesn’t matter, this stuff works like nothing else. I challenge any mother fucker who says that Ibogaine is a party drug to take a 16 mg per kg dose and go to a rave. Better take a bucket and a mattress. Patrick or someone else may have more info than me, but I don’t think that anyone could take enough Ibogaine to have a psychoactive reaction and walk around and party. You can take a shit load of Dramamine and trip, big deal. Matter of fact some of the hardest tripping I ever did was on Dramamine. I saw big polka dot boxes rolling in the fields of KY, and I saw a man laying under a car that was on fire, working on the transmission. This was on legally obtained Dramamine. I think we should all try and help, or get the fuck outta the way.     Randy

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 24, 2005 at 5:18:36 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I read an article last week about cocaine that cited the number of people in Colombia dying so that the 2 opposing factions could continue making money to fund their causes.  A lot of the deaths were innocent people caught in the middle of what amounted to a civil war for control of cocaine funds.  It questioned social responsibility of Europeans etc. whose life styles involved cocaine use around wealthy dinners & parties at the expense of lives in Colombia.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thursday, 24 February 2005 10:27:17 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id911/pg2/index.html

Disinformation: So then, what’s your definition of “addiction”?

Dan Russell: It’s a combination of different things. People are more prone
to neurotic inebriative behavior if they are frustrated in their own lives
and its directions, if they can’t do what they want to do with their lives.
I mean, there are addictions to sex, to gambling, to drugs, but when
addiction experts look at these things, they find they are all rooted in the
same kinds of psychological frustrations. They are not different, the
addictions, to sex, drugs, or gambling, they’re an escapist, neurotic thing
rooted in the same causes.
You don’t seperate them out psychologically. So when addiction experts try
to deal with addiction, what they find they are dealing with is not
pharmicological, but in root frustration. The inability to get work they
like, for instance, drives a lot of people completely crazy.

Disinformation: OK, define “pharmaco-phobic.”

Dan Russell: That’s a literal term. Pharmaco-phobia is quite like
ethno-phobia, which is how you define racism. It has a political purpose and
a political generation.
Cocaine is a perfect example. This culture is taught to hit the roof at the
mention of cocaine, taught to hate cocaine. But when you talk to your
average bourgeois twit, he doesn’t know a goddamned thing about cocaine.
Often he doesn’t even know where it comes from. What you’re dealing with
there is the phoney reason to make war on Native Colombians and take control
of the Upper-Putumayo, just as how we were taught to go crazy at the word
“Communism.”
Ho Chi Minh was a communist. Well, I was still only 20 in 1965 and very much
a part of this scene, but most of the people who went crazy and hated the
Vietcong didn’t know anything about the Vietcong.

Disinformation: They just listened to the propaganda.

Dan Russell: Right, it’s that kind of thing. It had a political purpose, to
make you support the War.
snip-
lots and lots more at above URL. It’s a 4 or 5 page interview.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge

> Hi Peter !
> Thank you for your E-mail 🙂
>
> You wrote :
>
>
>> Francis, what I mean is that certain types of explanation are
>> prescientific, because they use prinicples that can not be verified.
>> Certain terms imply forces of magic.For instance: If a gypsy passes
>> by and ‘bewitches’ a child ( knoweable because the child has panic
>> dreams each night) the ’cause ‘ of the childs behaviour is not a
>> psychological reaction of the child to a fearful event, but the
>> transport forem the gypsy towards the child of a ‘force’ that
>> necesarily changes the kid until the force has been ‘excorcised’.
>> Thye childs behaviour is not a reaction understandable in principles
>> of human behaviour, but understandable only in terms of magic.
>> The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
>> in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.
>
> #If I understood you don’t reject the existence of ” magical forces” that
> can affect our well-being and our thinking process ?/!
>
> You wrote :
>> The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
>> in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.
>
> # I agree with you, what is ” scientific” today could be considered
> quakery
> tomorrow. Science can’t explain everything like spontaneous remissions and
> phenomenon behind the actual knowledge and the limitation of the
> infinitely
> small to understand the infinitely Great
>
>
> You wrote :
>
>> Addiction is a concept from the times of magic, and concveys the
>> impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
>> for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
>> it does not apply e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
>> there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
>> the human individual powerless.
>
> You wrote :Addiction is a comcept from the time of magic.
>
> # You are probably right, but looking for one of he most ancient use of
> the
> word addiction. From the latin addicere ‘to devote’ “to allot” and “to
> adjudge or give over.” Thus, “addicere” meant “to give (oneself) over to
> “–i.e.,” to give in or surrender”*
> In the ancient Roman law “Addicere” is to adjudge a thing or the
> possession
> of a thing to one of the litigant parties.Addicere was used too to give a
> man to another man, one of the first judicial justification of ….
> slavery.
> Then in the 18 Th century addiction became a recognizable medical entry.
> This is in my humble definition of addiction : to devot, to give youself
> in
> slavery to a substance, another human being , a compulsive behavior or an
> entitie.
>
> You think the change happen only in the brain ?/! My belief system is a
> bit
> different….and will appear a bit magical for some, logical for
> others….
> Drugs open the door of perceptions but in the same time open the Soul to
> anyt Entitie that could possesse the powerless user..
> Give me only the name of an Exorcist or scholar of possession who will
> said the contrary .
>
> About the myth of the learning part and Spiritual research, self
> discovery
> in drug use. ?/!.
> All the great religions Pre Buddhism, Hindouism, Sumerians, Maya , Ancient
> Grecs ,and probably ancient Jews had flirted for a while with the use of
> drug . Then they all at one point dismiss and condemned it .Even the
> priest
> where forbidden of using Why ?/! ( side effects ?/! addiction ?/! social
> chaos ?/!)
>
> Tell me, only one thing, what exactly ,can I learnt by using drugs that I
> can’t learnt throught Meditation and Contemplation. What can I achieve
> spiritualy ?/!.As a free man , with only the tools that God gave me.
> Spirituality it’s a very simple thing and it’s only based on faith and
> lack
> of doubt.Then come the blessing, the peace, the joy, the strenght….ect
>
> What is the agenda of the drug pusher ? if not : control, greed or self
> justification for is own use and abuse ?/!
>
> About Ibogaine. I have been lurking for a while on this list. I have my
> answer : this product work .!! And I will use it ASAP :to free people from
> theirs chemical jails.You bet !! 🙂
>
> Francis
> God bless
>
> Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
>> change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
>> of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
>> to fit in this power game of drugs.
>> pc
>>
>> At 22:00 -0500 22-02-2005, The Garden wrote:
>> >Peter Cohen wrote ::
>> >
>> >I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
>> >bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
>> >primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
>> >still lingers on in the perception of many, the
>> >ibo clan included.
>> >
>> > * pre scientific ? When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??
>> >
>> >I went to see a definition of scientific :
>> >Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
>> >demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
>> >investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
>> >formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to
>> >demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion
> that
>> >validates or modifies the hypothesis.
>> >
>> >OR because you have the authority to do so:
>> >Proving an opinion to be correct
>> >Persuading someone to accept your proof.
>> >Persuading people that you detain the truth.
>> >Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ?
> Refering
>> >here to the psychiatrist industry
>> >Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t
> know
>> >, it at to be mental
>> >Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together with
>> >their traditional cultures
>> >
>> >Now show something that a scientist can see he will believe it !!. The
>> >Scientist mind is so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor
>> >Weisskopf
> ,
>> >physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and
> another
>> >atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”
>> >
>> >”I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT while
>> >I
>> >was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not
>> >explain
>> >this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
>> >quantum chromo dynamics”.
>> >Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New Scientist
>> >”
>> >Few magicians including your humble ” serviteur ” enjoy the pleasure
>> >of
>> >fooling very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
>> >Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is
> patient
>> >with ” animal magnetism
>> >
>> >Infornunately, theirs so called scientific approach and limitating
> beliefs
>> >system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost,
>> >soul
> ,
>> >Possession, God etc…
>> >I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.
>> >
>> >Francis
>> >God Bless
>> >
>> >”I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I
> write”
>> >” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
>> > Hunter S. Thompson
>> >
>>
>>
>> —
>> >————————————————-
>> >Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>> >University of Amsterdam
>> >
>> >Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>> >Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>> >1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>> >
>> >mail address: postbox 94208
>> >1090 GE Amsterdam
>> >
>> >email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>> >tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>> >fax +31-20-525 4317
>> >
>> >World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>> >original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>> >languages)
>>
>>
>>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
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> [%]
>>
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
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>

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.

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 4:56:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m sure there is a lot of history involved with peoples past but a good thing to remember is not to keep beating yourself up about it.  That may sound harsh but if you keep living it and not letting go theres a really good chance that the one person who ends up hurting is you.  Even if sometimes you don’t succeed then you can always try again.  I think it takes quite a few efforts to quit a drug addiction.  Definitely re-setting the mind which doesn’t just happen instantly although the ibogaine reports appear to do more than any other  treatment in that regard.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thursday, 24 February 2005 8:08:41 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions

hi matt
sorry to you and lee. i just don´t know how science can help
spirituality. i don´t think its necessary for everyone to examin their
past, since problems occcuring now can only be solved right now. also
your past never ends, its kind of fiction anyway. trying to get all
past issues solved is like drying out a river by scooping water out of
it. thats just my opinion.
fondest regards ekki

Am 24.02.2005 um 01:38 schrieb matthew zielinski:

>
>
> Hi
>
> Tell me whats funny about finding your way in this bewildred universe
> by resolving your past…Do you not think that the MAJOR problems that
> one has to deal with began as a small puerile nothing….i think
> coming to grips with your past ie anylazying why we did this –why we
> didnt do that etc is only going to make you a better human being, one
> who is in totall balance with the univere/self…What i think is funny
> is puting a label on it calling it this and that ..it is what it is
> …..no offense man but real change can only occur while reworking
> your past(especially if you know you erred but are
> guilty/ashamed/scared to admit it) —-how will you know not to repeat
> those same mistakes again if you havent learned/examind them/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Warmest Regards
>
> Love—-Matt—
>
>
> —-Original Message Follows—- From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re:
> [Ibogaine] technical questions Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:03:35 +0100
> lee, what you describe sounds just like scientology (no offense, i
> just think it´s funny): reworking of past traumas, combination of
> science and spirituality. then becoming ‘clear’ and ‘OT’. Am
> 23.02.2005 um 12:21 schrieb Lee Albert: >LMAO >What I mean on my web
> site is that my search for a way home is ended >because after trying
> everything from: >1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary >2. Primal
> therapy >3. Rebirthing etc >4. Counselling >5. Endless travelling >6.
> Reading >7. Isolation >8. Vegetarianism >…… >I finally found a way
> to enter my deepest self, examine my past, >transform it and come out
> changed and forward moving via eboga. >I use the terms seek, transform
> and expand somewhat cheek in tongue >:-). What I am saying is that for
> me I have had to rebuild my inner >and outer world by working through
> all the developmental traumas >that have warped my ability to relate
> in all sorts of ways. This >takes time but I find it a worthwhile
> exercise as I grow deeper in >myself, my relationship to life and
> friends and my understanding of >spirituality. Fortunately, I moved
> beyond the scientific position >and had the humilty to reexamine much
> which is dismissed by science >- spirituality. I do this
> scientifically. You could say I practise >spiritual science. >My
> search for a way has ended but the journey is not over! >Lee > >ekki
> <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote: >lee, your name makes me think of agent lee
> transmitting communiques > from interzone.those signals grow more
> faint while doctor > benway gains more power and eddie the sponge
> tunes in to the >signal…. > >i wonder if your tolerance stays the
> same all the time so that 6mg >is >always the best dose for you? >the
> other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that > your
> search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for >what >
> purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and >
> expand.”” ? >fondest regards ekki >
>
> Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and
> get the first two months FREE*
> /]=——————————————————————–
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/]=———————————————————————=[\
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.

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 24, 2005 at 4:55:29 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My client  who is a 10 years user , came off 80mg of methadone and a gram of heroin per day,
As he felt asleep last night ,
had a dream that he wasn’t sleeping just twisting and turning and he could here me sending my daugheter  to him with two sleeping pills,
after dreaming of taking them he  was sleeping until this morning without twisting and turning.

Sara

Van: Allison Senepart [mailto:paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz] 
Verzonden: donderdag 24 februari 2005 10:15
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams

I thought having dreams again was a healthy sign.  After disturbed sleep patterns and the dozing kind of out of it sleep having dreams was like sleep patterns re-adjusting and doing good things.  Something to do with REM or deep sleep.
If there is anyone else who can shed some light on this I too would be interested in the answer.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thursday, 24 February 2005 7:52:54 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams

i´ve been to two NA meetings lately (because of my drivers licence).
one of the guys shared that he had a dream about using the night
before. he is clean since years and has those dreams twice a year, but
thats not a problem.
i had a dream last night, too. i was dreaming to attend an NA meeting.
it took place in a big building with small rooms, bare masonry and
carpentry surrounded by barbed wire and i got into an argument with the
others. one guy wanted to beat me up. i decided not to run away or to
fight back and he let go of me. finally people dispersed into different
places in and around the building and i somehow got away.

matt, my suggestion: don´t worry about those dreams and don´t try to
deal with them. don´t make an issue out of it . dreaming is healing
from within and if things come up this is good. just watch and listen
inside, this is enough.
-ekki

Am 23.02.2005 um 18:56 schrieb matthew zielinski:

>
>
> Hi
>
> For the past two days ive been having very vivid dreams where ive been
> shooting down and up with all the effects these drugs produce, ie the
> warmth,energy etc..Its fucken frustrating becuase today being 5 weeks
> a few days clean im getting these overwhelming cravings which i know
> have been caused by those motherfucking nightmares..Although my will
> power is still unborken  and i feel strong;  i am worried if these
> continue i might succumb to the hellish temptetion –just to prove to
> my self its not worth it, but then i m uncertain what the consequence
> of my action would amount to….another ibogaine seesion is out of the
> question for now since i still suffer from chest pains from the last
> sesion…i know majority of recovering addicts experience these
> dreams..how have yyou dealt with them?
>
> Warmest Regards
>
> Love—-Matt—
>
>
>
> Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and
> get the first two months FREE*
> /]=——————————————————————–
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.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] f%#* your past
Date: February 24, 2005 at 4:45:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

the past is an illusion like everything else, you have to break through.
the problem is that even if you understand your past mistakes, this doesnīt mean that you donīt repeat them.
in all spiritual paths like zen, vipassana, sufi, christian mysticism, yoga, taoism and whatever you donīt deal with your past but rather try to stay in the moment. carlos castaneda somewhere writes that as a shaman you should get rid of your past, become a person without foretime.
the mind digests past by itself, you donīt have to do anything for it.

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From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 24, 2005 at 4:38:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Okay. I agree. Most are no fools, but this
veneration of a drug ( by at least some of them)
is quite pathetic sometimes.

No, not curious at all
pc

PS: Peter: “The ibo clan” isn’t all a bunch of
blithering fools who just found god. It has
every bit a place in helping heavy drug-users as
does legalization. Are you curious to try it?


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 24, 2005 at 4:14:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I thought having dreams again was a healthy sign.  After disturbed sleep patterns and the dozing kind of out of it sleep having dreams was like sleep patterns re-adjusting and doing good things.  Something to do with REM or deep sleep.
If there is anyone else who can shed some light on this I too would be interested in the answer.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thursday, 24 February 2005 7:52:54 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams

i´ve been to two NA meetings lately (because of my drivers licence).
one of the guys shared that he had a dream about using the night
before. he is clean since years and has those dreams twice a year, but
thats not a problem.
i had a dream last night, too. i was dreaming to attend an NA meeting.
it took place in a big building with small rooms, bare masonry and
carpentry surrounded by barbed wire and i got into an argument with the
others. one guy wanted to beat me up. i decided not to run away or to
fight back and he let go of me. finally people dispersed into different
places in and around the building and i somehow got away.

matt, my suggestion: don´t worry about those dreams and don´t try to
deal with them. don´t make an issue out of it . dreaming is healing
from within and if things come up this is good. just watch and listen
inside, this is enough.
-ekki

Am 23.02.2005 um 18:56 schrieb matthew zielinski:

>
>
> Hi
>
> For the past two days ive been having very vivid dreams where ive been
> shooting down and up with all the effects these drugs produce, ie the
> warmth,energy etc..Its fucken frustrating becuase today being 5 weeks
> a few days clean im getting these overwhelming cravings which i know
> have been caused by those motherfucking nightmares..Although my will
> power is still unborken  and i feel strong;  i am worried if these
> continue i might succumb to the hellish temptetion –just to prove to
> my self its not worth it, but then i m uncertain what the consequence
> of my action would amount to….another ibogaine seesion is out of the
> question for now since i still suffer from chest pains from the last
> sesion…i know majority of recovering addicts experience these
> dreams..how have yyou dealt with them?
>
> Warmest Regards
>
> Love—-Matt—
>
>
>
> Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and
> get the first two months FREE*
> /]=——————————————————————–
> -=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
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.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 24, 2005 at 2:08:00 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi matt
sorry to you and lee. i just don´t know how science can help spirituality. i don´t think its necessary for everyone to examin their past, since problems occcuring now can only be solved right now. also your past never ends, its kind of fiction anyway. trying to get all past issues solved is like drying out a river by scooping water out of it. thats just my opinion.
fondest regards ekki

Am 24.02.2005 um 01:38 schrieb matthew zielinski:

Hi

Tell me whats funny about finding your way in this bewildred universe by resolving your past…Do you not think that the MAJOR problems that one has to deal with began as a small puerile nothing….i think coming to grips with your past ie anylazying why we did this –why we didnt do that etc is only going to make you a better human being, one who is in totall balance with the univere/self…What i think is funny is puting a label on it calling it this and that ..it is what it is …..no offense man but real change can only occur while reworking your past(especially if you know you erred but are guilty/ashamed/scared to admit it) —-how will you know not to repeat those same mistakes again if you havent learned/examind them/

Warmest Regards

Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:03:35 +0100 lee, what you describe sounds just like scientology (no offense, i just think it´s funny): reworking of past traumas, combination of science and spirituality. then becoming ‘clear’ and ‘OT’. Am 23.02.2005 um 12:21 schrieb Lee Albert: >LMAO >What I mean on my web site is that my search for a way home is ended >because after trying everything from: >1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary >2. Primal therapy >3. Rebirthing etc >4. Counselling >5. Endless travelling >6. Reading >7. Isolation >8. Vegetarianism >…… >I finally found a way to enter my deepest self, examine my past, >transform it and come out changed and forward moving via eboga. >I use the terms seek, transform and expand somewhat cheek in tongue >:-). What I am saying is that for me I have had to rebuild my inner >and outer world by working through all the developmental traumas >that have warped my ability to relate in all sorts of ways. This >takes time but I find it a worthwhile exercise as I grow deeper in >myself, my relationship to life and friends and my understanding of >spirituality. Fortunately, I moved beyond the scientific position >and had the humilty to reexamine much which is dismissed by science >- spirituality. I do this scientifically. You could say I practise >spiritual science. >My search for a way has ended but the journey is not over! >Lee > >ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote: >lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting communiques > from interzone.those signals grow more faint while doctor > benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to the >signal…. > >i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all the time so that 6mg >is >always the best dose for you? >the other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that > your search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for >what > purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and > expand.”” ? >fondest regards ekki >

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from  MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*  /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman
Date: February 23, 2005 at 11:27:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What about the witdraw ?/!
I believe this amount will flush fast the opiates. In Acoholism the best
result 75% are obtain using a Ortomollecular protocol .too  See ” Seven
weeks to sobriety ” I have tried on me self 🙂 and that the one I use for
Alcohol detox on friends
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman

Julie,
I hadn’t read the other message re: using vit c to detox before I
answered yours.  However  The dose of c i was taking was more like 4 grams a
day .   His protocol is suggesting 25-85 grams which I would entirely
believe possible to do as stated.  A glass of juice has maybe 60 mg.  1
gram=1,000 mg.
Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman

Hey,

I thought Vitamin C somehow lowered plasma opiate
levels; at my meth clinic people always talked about
avoiding anything high in vitC (like grapefruit juice)
as it can render your opiates less effective.  Maybe
the Vitamin C speeds up the flushing of the opiates
from the body…?

I’ve also heard injections of B vitamins can
ameliorate withdrawal symptoms, but can’t comment as
I’ve never tried it.

Interesting…

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [IbogaineOT]
Date: February 23, 2005 at 11:09:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i think i will change the paranoid way in which  i open emails. me thinks i’m missing something– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Hi Allison,
I think people are scared of the subject as there is a lot of taboo around it, eg. needles and HIV, crime, destitution etc. Its hard for someone who is not a drug taker to approach the subject with a clear head and simply see the person as a human being who needs to take particular drugs to function or simply choses to use them. How one gets round that I am not sure. Public awareness campaigns? Perhaps like the war on drugs this also has huge obstacles. Maybe the pro-drug choice lobby would be better to spend their money on public awareness of the individuals who use rather than the drugs themselves?
Thing is there is a huge recreational drug scene, cocaine, MDMA, weed, pills.. the majority of whom would not consider themselves addicts by any means. Do they also share this prejudice? Where I live the kids in the villages all over Andalucia dive into the coke at the weekends. (Granada is like a mini-Amsterdam. You can smoke weed in a whole string of bars.)
What you write about the empathy between you and your ex-flat mate bears out my point completely about commonality. I enjoyed reading your old memories as it makes the point even clearer.
Lee

Allison Senepart <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> wrote:
Hi Lee.  I would be quite comfortable talking about my opiate addiction but found over the years that non-drug users were not comfortable talking to me.  Its great that people such as you want to understand but in my experience not a lot of others do want to know.  Closest I can come is with people who are depressed and they get told to pull themselves together,  sharpen up sort of thing which doesn’t help at all.  If they could do that they wouldn’t be depressed and if drug users could just turn around and solve all the issues surrounding their addiction they wouldn’t be users.  That probably sounds simplified but hope you can understand the general idea.  I lived with a friend who had been sexually abused and she was the only person I knew not in the drug scene that had the patience and care to offer to me when I was f***** up.  At least for us two we did feel empathy and lots of friendship and neither of us will forget that.  She had a lot harder life than me and has just married a lovely man who thinks the world of her so I’m very happy for her.  We have shared lots of things, looking after each other, our children and confidences and both of us seem to have come out the other side so long may it last and I hope others find happiness.  Sorry the old memories carried me away a bit.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sunday, 20 February 2005 8:49:42 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Lee, I realize you are not conversing with me, I can not help myself! I would say drug user’s as a group will be able to converse with non-drug user’s much easier and with less animosity than most non-drug user’s are able to converse with drug users’
bf
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Hi Preston,

There have been a number of discussions going on here. So dont think that I am trying to side swip you by another argument. Just putting some thoughts into the mix based on a sense that I have picked up from reading different peoples posts.

I think it is quite possible that drug users are more comfortable discussing among themselves as there is a culture around drug taking that maybe enjoys its own company more than others? (Like the guys who congregate for a cig outside the office during break.) I think it might be important to consider the self limiting aspects of this culture in how it feeds into the general debate.

I am not pointing fingers – just throwing out ideas for consideration.

IMHO I see you as very open and very willing to consider other viewpoints. I have never thought of you as being exclusive. In fact I think you are a very compassionate human being. I give you the benefit of the doubt on most issues. At the same time I can see how some arguments gall you and they would gall me too. Perhaps people mean well but don’t value the need to put their point across with tact. All this enlightenment stuff needs to be sensitive to peoples feelings. It’s not about being impervious. Thats not enlightenment. Thats just ignorance imo.

When a person is in pain let them chose what is right for them.

Lee

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>See, while I may not be aware of the exact issues relating to drug use I
>can learn from reading others experiences. Of course I wont have all the
>experiential knowledge that a drug user will have but I doubt all drug
>users have the same experiential knowledge either.<

Yeah Lee,
I’m trying to not give the impression that I think that ONLY junkies can
help other junkies or only this particular type can help similar types, etc,
because I do not believe that. I also do feel that even if I or someone else
haven’t been a junkie or addict or whatever the example, I can still be a
huge help to someone who is, if that’s what I wanted to do, or to all of
them in other ways too by working to end the descrimination and other stuff
like that. I might not completely understand where they might be coming
from, but I can certainly listen to them, be open minded and
non-descriminatory, and offer what help I can.

>It seems to me that there are similarities and differences and in fact many
>grey areas, that to emphasise the differences over the commonality is a bit
>like saying that a guy from NY has nothing in common with a guy from
>Johannesburg, so they should not do business together or learn from one
>anothers views or experiences. Can a guy from Johannesburg not see what a
>guy from New York is blind too and visa versa? Did not members of the ANC
>not travel to NI to help in the peace process?<

Again, I apologize for giving the impression ever that I was saying only
junkies can help junkies, etc. It might take one to KNOW one, but it doesn’t
take more than one to work together with others, etc.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Hey Preston,

Thanks for the detailed response. I want to read through it all before I get
back to you but what springs to mind is the time I was in Frankfurt waiting
for a train. I decided to take a walk along a public park which had very low
lying plants and scrubs so you could see right across to the other side.

The police turned up with sniffer dogs and I swear if I am not mistaken at
least a hundred people stood up out of nowhere with all their drug
paraphenalia and started to move on. I was blown away. Well, before this I
had the addi(c)tional experience of rushing for a train in Frankfurt having
to excuse myself while a girl sat on the stairwell leading to the
underground extracting blood into a syringe and shooting up along with
turniquet(?). She was one of a crowd of users. The image is as real today in
my mind as if it was yesterday.

So maybe those comments were somewhat personal and not the full story by any
means. You make a valid point about TV etc. which wasn’t even going through
my mind when I wrote that.

Jasen made an interesting point on the reason for drug use also and Brad
certainly hit a nail on the head.

See, while I may not be aware of the exact issues relating to drug use I can
learn from reading others experiences. Of course I wont have all the
experiential knowledge that a drug user will have but I doubt all drug users
have the same experiential knowledge either.

It seems to me that there are similarities and differences and in fact many
grey areas, that to emphasise the differences over the commonality is a bit
like saying that a guy from NY has nothing in common with a guy from
Johannesburg, so they should not do business together or learn from one
anothers views or experiences. Can a guy from Johannesburg not see what a
guy from New York is blind too and visa versa? Did not members of the ANC
not travel to NI to help in the peace process?

On top of all this the reasons for drug use (I imagine) are the same reasons
in many ways for why victimes of trauma act out in whatever way they chose,
sexually, binging on food, ……

So, if we break down the paradigm of drug use and dealing with the effects
of trauma in non-drug users, we may end up with a list which makes the
differences far less than the similarities. And it is the commonalities we
can draw from if we are not too proud to take from those outside our camp.

Anyway, I want to read your post and learn as I know that is something I
need to do to try and get in line with what the issues actually are here and
to try and figure out the common ground.

All the best to you.

Lee

Preston Peet wrote:
>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on
>illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant
>crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature.
>Not rocket science.<

On the Streets, or on COPS?
On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some horrific
behavior or other?
On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television propaganda (as
you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)?
How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how much do I
see face to face, and how much is described to me, or shown to me by others
in whose interest it is to portray drug users in the very worst light?
Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think we’re
shown such “criminal” figures:
—–

http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm

excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice?
by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the
Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”)

snip-

With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new business
and means of control that can be instituted without giving up the profits
currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs industries. When announcing his
resignation as head of the White House Office of National Drug Control
Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of
war terminology in the fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when
discussing the situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when
discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for such a
stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement involvement in waging
the War on Some Dru! gs, but McCaffrey “agreed” on July 24, 2001, to join
the
board of directors at DrugAbuse Sciences Inc., “the world’s first
pharmaceutical company worldwide devoted solely to developing medications
for the treatment of addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment
is now explained.

“DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference in the
health of Americans through its understanding of treatment and its broad
portfolio of new medications under development,” asserted the retired
general. “They have created a company consisting of the leading medical
researchers, clinicians and most exciting new product candidates. This
combination offers the promise of developing highly effective medical
treatment options for addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our
country over 100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is
odd, as McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000
Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal costs of
drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per year.”[11]

Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and profitable)
anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of prohibitionist Drug Warriors
since President Nixon first uttered his declaration of a War on Drugs in
1968. As related by author Dan Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson
Institute estimated that New York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were
responsible for a whopping $1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than
the total amount of crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are
inseparable companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a
speech on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals
to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in crime.’
Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and rai! sed him. ‘The
total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is around $10 billion to
$15 billion,’ he said.

“In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in the US
in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the previous year).
That includes everything except cars, which junkies don’t usually steal
because they can’t easily fence them, and embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie
crime. The combined value of everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and
muggings, everything shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted
from a warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s
War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as fifteen times
the value of everything stolen in the United States.”[12] As the original
fallacious numbers bandied about by prohibitionists convinced the nation to
support mass-jailing of druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced
treatme! nt today.

snip-

9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001

10. Ibid.

11. McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000.

12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics of
Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70.
snip-
—–

>Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to
>pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the
>comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of
>an addict?<

I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on anyone’s
nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree entirely here
either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime or assault, but can’t
really “know” what they’re going through or have gone through without
experiencin! g it. Having been assaulted in jail (and having gone through a
couple of other not-so-nice experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can
honestly say I don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and
drug use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use
certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to bet
TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no negative
consequences at all), they are different as day and night, to me- in most
ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am not quite so open about
having been sexually assaulted in most civil company, nor would I discuss my
shooting up drugs days in most civil company either. Yes, both are
descriminated against in many ways, but I’m not entirely sure it’s the same
sort of things. Similar I suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only
one I really know.

>When we start to see our commonality across t! he board (and look outside
>our
>politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts
>towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to
>do something for everyone involved.<

As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against anyone for
NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from them for any drug
use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my years. But I am not sure
I see the equation quite as clearly here as you Lee.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Dear List,

If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug
addiction it is this:

Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they see
themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to talk about
standing up for one rights in the face of endless propaganda which preaches
that the addiction condition is a reflection of the worthlessness of the
individual or that the sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for
instance). (Not to mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because
in this state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and
it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some level you
believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process of healing.
(Apart from that just getting through the day is hard enough. The idea of
politically active addicts is bordering on a luxury condition for most
addicts I would imagine.)

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction base! d on
illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime
due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not
rocket science.

What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of drug
addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the similarities between
what the addict suffers and what others such as the sexually abused have
suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, i.e., the idea that if you have
never been a drug addict you cannot make an important contribution based on
your own, albeit, other experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite
possible to perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through,
based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time to time
and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. Yet, as I am not a
member of the addict club in many ways my views are not so relevant. That
kind of n! arrow mindedness will get the drug addiction community nowhere
fast.

I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate pedestal to
the rest of us they will lack the collective support they need to advance
their position. It cannot be fought along the lines of: I am an addict and
I’ll
tell you how it is but you don’t tell me anything because you know jack
shit! So if you are going to help me do as I say, not as I do.

I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by little the
issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What has kept me hooked
(in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine suffering I can identify
with on this list. Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects
of sexual abuse to pass judgement that there is nothing in common or that it
is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the
experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking on! e example – there are
others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I am saying maybe I
can sit down and write about a day in the life of an addict beginning with:
Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I can’t get out of bed as it hurts
to be awake but I have no choice.. Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was
reminiscing.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our
politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts
towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do
something for everyone involved.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media /
librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media /
librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 23, 2005 at 11:07:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee !!
How do you do ?
I am curious how you do or practice your spiritual science. How do you investigate scientifically your spirituality ?
I am enthousiast about this 🙂 Actualy, I am investigating what was the modus operantis of the Saints.By reading theirs life, trying to find an invisible link , a sort of blue print of theirs belief system.it is just an hobby but I started to find few common denominator.I found at least one rule : the saint believe that he or she is realy one with his or her  Beloved  . It is very humbling for a man like me to spend time reading the life of  Men who went  “throught the small door .”

God bless
I have something for you Lee . You wrote I find it a worthwhile exercise as I grow deeper in myself.
To be one self. That the deal. 😉

Thomas Merton in his book ” New seeds of contemplation write :
“Many Poets are not Poets for the same reason that many religious men are not saints : They never succeed in being themselves.”

:

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions

LMAO
What I mean on my web site is that my search for a way home is ended because after trying everything from:
1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary
2. Primal therapy
3. Rebirthing etc
4. Counselling
5. Endless travelling
6. Reading
7. Isolation
8. Vegetarianism
……
I finally found a way to enter my deepest self, examine my past, transform it and come out changed and forward moving via eboga.
I use the terms seek, transform and expand somewhat cheek in tongue :-). What I am saying is that for me I have had to rebuild my inner and outer world by working through all the developmental traumas that have warped my ability to relate in all sorts of ways. This takes time but I find it a worthwhile exercise as I grow deeper in myself, my relationship to life and friends and my understanding of spirituality. Fortunately, I moved beyond the scientific position and had the humilty to reexamine much which is dismissed by science – spirituality. I do this scientifically. You could say I practise spiritual science.
My search for a way has ended but the journey is not over!
Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting communiques
from interzone.those signals grow more faint while doctor
benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to the signal….

i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all the time so that 6mg is
always the best dose for you?
the other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that
your search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for what
purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and
expand.”” ?
fondest regards ekki

Am 22.02.2005 um 20:37 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Ekki,
>
> Yes I am and it assists me in an ongoing program of “seek, transform
> and expand.”
>
> At 6mg approx. I have the optimum amount I can work with personally
> without bringing on rejection and also allowing me to relax and let
> the eboga entities be present and work with me from issue to issue.
>
> I have many different areas of personal development ongoing and I work
> from one to another as the occasion warrents. Its a program of
> overlapping resolution and expansion of my personal self.
>
> Once you find your own thread, hold onto it and it will lead you home.
>
> Lee
>
> ekki wrote:
>
> Am 22.02.2005 um 11:28 schrieb Lee Albert:
>
> > Hi Ekki,
> >
> > Lucky for you the rootbark came in around 5%. You must have done your
> > homework on the dose levels beforehand.
> >
> > So what are you hoping for with continued use?
> >
> > Lee
> >
>
> i don´t plan another full dose for myself in near future.
> maybe small booster doses.
> are you still taking small amounts yourself, and why or why not?
>
>
>
> /]=——————————————————————–
> -=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=——————————————————————–
> -=[/
>
>
>
>
> Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over
> a six year period.
> www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
> Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media /
> librarians etc:
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: mafinman@optonline.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman
Date: February 23, 2005 at 10:28:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie,
I hadn’t read the other message re: using vit c to detox before I answered yours.  However  The dose of c i was taking was more like 4 grams a day .   His protocol is suggesting 25-85 grams which I would entirely believe possible to do as stated.  A glass of juice has maybe 60 mg.  1 gram=1,000 mg.
Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman

Hey,

I thought Vitamin C somehow lowered plasma opiate
levels; at my meth clinic people always talked about
avoiding anything high in vitC (like grapefruit juice)
as it can render your opiates less effective.  Maybe
the Vitamin C speeds up the flushing of the opiates
from the body…?

I’ve also heard injections of B vitamins can
ameliorate withdrawal symptoms, but can’t comment as
I’ve never tried it.

Interesting…

J.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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From: mafinman@optonline.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman
Date: February 23, 2005 at 10:17:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have always used pretty high doses of vitamin c and never found it to interfere with the opiates that were in my system.  Vit C has a detoxing affect and I looked at it as damage control.  Vitamin B s to sum it up I look at as the stress vitamin and it  seems to help me heal from pretty much anything.  It’s all about immune support which is what  both those vitamins did for me.  Not to mention the same with the greens.
Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman

Hey,

I thought Vitamin C somehow lowered plasma opiate
levels; at my meth clinic people always talked about
avoiding anything high in vitC (like grapefruit juice)
as it can render your opiates less effective.  Maybe
the Vitamin C speeds up the flushing of the opiates
from the body…?

I’ve also heard injections of B vitamins can
ameliorate withdrawal symptoms, but can’t comment as
I’ve never tried it.

Interesting…

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman
Date: February 23, 2005 at 7:49:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I must say ive notices a big difference while being on methadone and taking large amount of vitamin C. —I would definetly get sick more quickly. When i was in British Columbia in a rehab centre they  would give vit B shots –didnt notice any difference though but as with any suplements/herbs you only feel the benefits as time passes by.

Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:06:12 -0800 (PST) Hey, I thought Vitamin C somehow lowered plasma opiate levels; at my meth clinic people always talked about avoiding anything high in vitC (like grapefruit juice) as it can render your opiates less effective. Maybe the Vitamin C speeds up the flushing of the opiates from the body…? I’ve also heard injections of B vitamins can ameliorate withdrawal symptoms, but can’t comment as I’ve never tried it. Interesting… J. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Take the effort out of being organized with MSNŪ Calendar. MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 23, 2005 at 7:40:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To flog a dead horse:

Dana wrote:
[What would I do?] Threaten that no one with any direct experience with ibogaine would take him [Peter] seriously?

Dana, Peter makes some very good arguments, try and read them sometime. Just for kicks, try not being stoned. Heroin, fine, but not weed. I mean it makes you so weak of mind… heroin is much better to study with. I have direct experience with both ibogaine and heroin and I find some of his ideas helpful with coming to a better understanding of drug use. What we have now doesn’t work, why not stir it up?

Hey! You have no direct experience with ibogaine either… Oh yeah, you had no medical reason until now and it’s always been your position that ibogaine only be used for medical reasons and you are going to do it ANY day now
. Tick tick tick…

Wait a sec. It doesn’t seem like you believe it’s only for medical uses only, witness how handy you think Jesus found it for helping with the pain of being crucified and resurrected. Oh wait, that’s medical. You don’t think the Bwiti have a right to use it without a medical reason? You would not take it without a medical reason? If you didn’t want to have that cyst removed you wouldn’t take it? Even though you made your son take it? Even though you constantly advise us poor stupid junkies to take it? Even though you have/had a large financial stake in it? Even though you wrote the book on it? Been immersed in it for the last 20 years? Strange I say. I’m sorry, it just seems like you are full of shit.

You have no time free until May 10? None? Such a busy man. Well then, May 10 it is. Let us know how it goes and what you learn. I’ll remind you if you want. Best with the hash bash.

Dana wrote:
The crowd represented by P. Cohen has argued the action of cannabis and opiates in the brain are really the same;  but the dose-response curve is totally different: every morning you do pot, you don’t have to keep escalating the dose.

For me it was the opposite, I liked a big wad of dope to start the day and would taper off. Better sleep, you know? You always smoke the most in the AM? Cool. Getting to know you
We know they are different; that weed is generally less harmful than smack. Junkies just get a little sick of the superiority complex of other addicts: “At least I’m not a junkie
” We are polite at least. And hey, we’re not base-heads. We even get sick of well intentioned folk telling us how much better we would be if we found god, ibo, or weed
Ibo perhaps works best with those who want to quit and think ibogaine may be the ticket. Same with AA. If someone feels they need dope or AA to get by, then who am I to say no?

What are your sources for your fascinating thoughts regarding iboga being so widespread among Pygmies in the Rift valley and the Pharaos of Egypt and the Rabbis of Palestine and Jesus? The Pygmies have using it for 20,000 years for a fact? Like many of your ideas, perhaps it’s something you want to believe in so you make facts up to suit the argument. I personally find Jesus having a few of Superman’s powers more compelling. As you say: Facts are stubborn things. How ironic, eh? Well, what are the sources for these facts? Are they theories or are they facts?

Sorry if I missed all the nuances regarding Jesus’ iboga munching in your confusing book. Why do you talk so little about ibogaine in it? Oh yeah, because you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.

You wrote something to the effect of “So now I’m a DEA agent

Hhhmmmm… it all makes sense now. What better way for ‘the man’ to keep ibo as a fringe treatment than to have you as the loudest advocate? It would explain your refusal to ever take it. As you can see, an idea doesn’t always mean fact. There is a difference between truth and honesty. I can honestly believe something, but that does not make it true.

I wasn’t there, the panel at the conference on lost sacraments, was that about ibogaine? If so, it’s only lost to you.

I think it is still open as to whether you have done more harm than good. You make some good arguments as well as some very kooky ones. Some of your advocacy is helpful, some not. Why not take this magic cure you talk up so much and see if you have insight into ibogaine and yourself. As Sara said, if you want to understand iboga, you must take it. An impression is given that what you are most interested in is personal glory. History pass you by, eh?

Just fucking with you Dana. Like I say, it’s fun. Wasn’t that the point of the yippies to fuck with the powerful money-interests of society?

Peace and love and hugs ya’ big bear,
Steve.

PS: Peter: “The ibo clan” isn’t all a bunch of blithering fools who just found god. It has every bit a place in helping heavy drug-users as does legalization. Are you curious to try it?

PPS: Very sad about HST, the pain and wreckage he left for his family is great. It wasn’t the drugs which made him a great writer. He was person medicating pain; the pain became too great. He did make drug use appear to be a great hobby. Which one of us was not a little empowered by Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? Hope he found his peace.

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 23, 2005 at 7:38:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Tell me whats funny about finding your way in this bewildred universe by resolving your past…Do you not think that the MAJOR problems that one has to deal with began as a small puerile nothing….i think coming to grips with your past ie anylazying why we did this –why we didnt do that etc is only going to make you a better human being, one who is in totall balance with the univere/self…What i think is funny is puting a label on it calling it this and that ..it is what it is …..no offense man but real change can only occur while reworking your past(especially if you know you erred but are guilty/ashamed/scared to admit it) —-how will you know not to repeat those same mistakes again if you havent learned/examind them/

Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

—-Original Message Follows—- From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:03:35 +0100 lee, what you describe sounds just like scientology (no offense, i just think itīs funny): reworking of past traumas, combination of science and spirituality. then becoming ‘clear’ and ‘OT’. Am 23.02.2005 um 12:21 schrieb Lee Albert: >LMAO >What I mean on my web site is that my search for a way home is ended >because after trying everything from: >1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary >2. Primal therapy >3. Rebirthing etc >4. Counselling >5. Endless travelling >6. Reading >7. Isolation >8. Vegetarianism >…… >I finally found a way to enter my deepest self, examine my past, >transform it and come out changed and forward moving via eboga. >I use the terms seek, transform and expand somewhat cheek in tongue >:-). What I am saying is that for me I have had to rebuild my inner >and outer world by working through all the developmental traumas >that have warped my ability to relate in all sorts of ways. This >takes time but I find it a worthwhile exercise as I grow deeper in >myself, my relationship to life and friends and my understanding of >spirituality. Fortunately, I moved beyond the scientific position >and had the humilty to reexamine much which is dismissed by science >- spirituality. I do this scientifically. You could say I practise >spiritual science. >My search for a way has ended but the journey is not over! >Lee > >ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote: >lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting communiques > from interzone.those signals grow more faint while doctor > benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to the >signal…. > >i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all the time so that 6mg >is >always the best dose for you? >the other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that > your search is complete like youīve been led home already. for >what > purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and > expand.”” ? >fondest regards ekki >

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 23, 2005 at 7:36:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/23/05 3:29:35 PM, synn1@hotmail.com writes:

post-withdrawal drug-dreams are just as ubiquitious as those “final exam”
dreams many adults still get.

you know: you suddenly remember you registered for a course at the beginning
of the semester, and now it’s final exam-time, and you don’t even know
where the exam is being given, but you have to take it, and you’re going to
fail
[or whatever your own version of that school-anxiety dream is].

residual anxiety, nothing more. and oh-so-common.

Hi synn,

I’d like to add something to what you have said.  It came up repeatedly
during the recent ibogaine forum last weekend.  Persons who have been chemically
dependent have extreme responses to any signs similar to withdrawal signs, and
those signs are ubiquitous: aches and pains, anxiety, sleeplessness and the
issue of dreams is just representative of the fear that is anticipated of any
withdrawal-like sign.  One of the benefits of ibogaine is that is allows the
separation of fear of those signs or symptoms from the normal experience of
withdrawal-like signs that are really just so common to human experience or to
withdrawal signs themselves from the fear of withdrawal.

Howard

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vitamin C- Pipetman
Date: February 23, 2005 at 7:06:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey,

I thought Vitamin C somehow lowered plasma opiate
levels; at my meth clinic people always talked about
avoiding anything high in vitC (like grapefruit juice)
as it can render your opiates less effective.  Maybe
the Vitamin C speeds up the flushing of the opiates
from the body…?

I’ve also heard injections of B vitamins can
ameliorate withdrawal symptoms, but can’t comment as
I’ve never tried it.

Interesting…

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: Pipetman9@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction Therapy Hypoascorbemia-Kwashiorkor Approach
Date: February 23, 2005 at 6:41:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine is not the only well documented effective addiction therapy ignored by established medicine
orthomolecular therapy i.e. mega dose vitamins like mega dose  i.v. sodiumascorbate can be useful to treat addiction and lots of other disease conditions.

here some references:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/197x/libby-af-orthomol_psych-1977-v6-n4-p300.htm

Orthomolecular Psychiatry, 1977, Volume 6, Number 4, pp. 300-308

The Hypoascorbemia-Kwashiorkor Approach to Drug Addiction Therapy: APilot Study
Alfred F. Libby 1 and Irwin Stone 2

summary

Chronic drug addiction produces in the victims severe subclinical scurvy, along withmultivitamin and mineral dysfunction and protein deficiencies. The widely used MethadoneProgram for “treating” these sick people merely substitutes a legal narcotic foran illicit one, which only continues the severe biochemical stresses contributing to theirillness. This pilot study regarded the addicts as suffering from a seriousHypoascorbemia-Kwashiorkor type of syndrome. Our procedure was designed to fully correctboth the genetic defect causing the Hypoascorbemia and also the multimalnutritionaldisturbances and protein deficiencies involved in the Kwashiorkor. The treatment isentirely orthomolecular and inexpensive, is nontoxic, and uses no drugs or narcotics. Itis rapidly effective in bringing good health to the addicts. In the initial phases of theprocedure, sodium ascorbate is administered at 25 to 85 g per day or more, along with highdoses of multivitamins, essential minerals, and protein hydrolysate. Under this treatment,the heroin or methadone is stopped and no withdrawal symptoms are encountered. Should a”fix” be taken, it is immediately detoxified and no “high” isproduced. It is like injecting plain water. There is a great improvement in well-being andmental alertness. In a few days appetite returns and they eat well, they have restfulsleep, and the “methadone-constipation” is relieved. After about four to sixdays the dosages are reduced to holding dose levels. In the 30 addicts tested in thispilot study, the results were excellent in all cases, and it would appear that this simplenontoxic procedure should serve as the basis for large-scale testing to develop a newprogram for freeing drug addicts of their addiction. In drug overdosage, sodium ascorbatecan be a lifesaving measure. Unconscious overdosed addicts are given the sodium ascorbateintravenously, 30 to 50 g while those able to swallow can be given the same quantitydissolved in a glass of milk. This antidote is nonspecific and works on all drugs, so notime need be wasted in identifying the drug. We speculate on ascorbate’s action asdue to the high levels of sodium ascorbate in the brain as competing for and displacingthe narcotic from the opiate receptor sites. If this be the case, then it might bepossible to use this phenomenon postoperatively on surgical patients to quickly bring themout of anesthesia.

REFERENCES
BEJRABLAYA, D. and LAUMJANSOOK, K.: Effect of Various Doses of Ascorbic Acid upon    Pentobarbital. J. Med. Assoc. Thailand 59: (4): 188-189, 1976.
CAMERON, E. and BAIRD, G.M.: Ascorbic Acid and Dependence on Opiates in Patients with    Advanced Disseminated Cancer. J. Internat. Res. Communic. 1: (6): 33, 1973.
CATHCART, R.F. Vitamin C and Viral Disease. Talk presented at the Annual Meeting of the    California Orthomolecular Medical Society. February 19, 1976. San Francisco.
GHIONE, R. Morphine Spasm and C-Hypervitaminosis. Vitaminologia (Turin) 16:131-136,    1958.
KLENNER, F.R.: Significance of High Daily Intake of Ascorbic Acid in Preventive    Medicine. J. Internat. Acad. Prev. Med. 1: 45-69, 1974.
SACCOMAN, W.J.: Personal Communication. 1976.
SCHER, J., RICE, H., SUCK-OO, KIM, DI-CAMELLI, A., O’CONNOR, H.: Massive Vitamin C    as an Adjunct in Methadone Maintenance and Detoxification. J. Orthomolecular Psychiatry 5:    (3): 191-198, 1976.
SNYDER, SH.: Opiate Receptors and Internal Opiates. Scientific American 236: (3): 44-56,    March, 1977.
STONE, I.: On the Genetic Etiology of Scurvy. Acta Genet. Med. Gemellol. 15: 345-350,    1966.
STONE, I.: Hypoascorbemia, the Genetic Disease Causing the Human Requirement for    Exogenous Ascorbic Acid. Perspect. Biol. Med. 10: 133-134. 1966a.
STONE, I. Hypoascorbemia: A Fresh Approach to an Ancient Disease and Some of its Medical    Implications. Acta Genet. Med. Gemellol. 16: 52-62, 1967.
STONE, I.: The Healing Factor. “Vitamin C” Against Disease. Grosset and Dunlap    Inc., New York, 1972.
STONE, I.: The Natural History of Ascorbic Acid in the Evolution of the Mammals and    Primates and Its Significance for Present-Day Man. J. Orthomolecular Psychiatry 1: (2-3):    82-89, 1972a.
STONE, I.: Hypoascorbemia. Our Most Widespread Disease. Bull. Nat. Health Fed. 18: (10):    6-9, 1972b.
STONE, I.: The Genetics of Scurvy and the Cancer Problem. J. Orthomolecular Psychiatry    5: (3): 183-190, 1976.
STONE, I.: The CSS Syndrome. A Medical Paradox. Northwest Acad. Prev. Med. 1: (1):    24-28, 1977.From

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) effects on
withdrawal syndrome of heroin abusers
by
Evangelou A, Kalfakakou V, Georgakas P, Koutras V,
Vezyraki P, Iliopoulou L, Vadalouka A
Laboratory of Experimental Physiology,
Faculty of Medicine,
University of Ioannina, Greece.
aevaggel@uoi.gr
In Vivo 2000 Mar-Apr; 14(2):363-6

ABSTRACT
BACKGROUND:Ascorbic acid (vitamin C), administered orally in high doses has beenobserved to relieve pain and reduce opioid use in cancer patients. Invitro studies have also shown that antioxidants, such as vitamin C,may, at high concentrations, inhibit the endogenous opioid degradingmetalloenzyme and increase endorphin levels. In the present study theeffects of oral administration of high doses of vitamin C on withdrawalsyndrome of heroin abusers were investigated. MATERIALS AND PATIENTS:Ascorbic acid at doses of 300 mg/kg b.w/day, supplemented with vitaminE (5 mg/kg b.w/day), was orally administered in two groups of heroinaddict subjects consisting of in-patients (Group A, 30 males) and oneof out-patients(Group B, 10 males), for a minimum of 4 weeks. The groupA in-patients were also administered the conventional (diazepam +analgesic) medication. The results on the intensity of withdrawalsyndrome (WS), estimated according to DMS-III criteria, were comparedto a third group of heroin addict in-patients (group C, 30males-control group), treated only by conventional medication. RESULTS:The patients of the vitamin C-treated groups (in-patients andout-patients) experienced mild WS (in 46.6% to 50% of the subjects) incontrast to the control group patients, who experienced mild WS in 6.6%of the cases. The vitamin C-treated subjects expressed major WS rangingfrom 10% to 16.6%, in contrast to the untreated subjects (controlgroup), who expressed a major WS in 56.6% of the cases. CONCLUSIONS:The results indicate that high doses of ascorbic acid administeredorally, may ameliorate the withdrawal syndrome of heroin addicts.Further studies are needed in order to estimate the dose- andtime-dependent effects of ascorbic acid treatment, and to clarify itsmechanisms of action in the withdrawal syndrome
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

useful vitamin links:

http://www.doctoryourself.com/vitaminc.html

http://www.orthomed.org/links/alcohol.htm

http://vitamincfoundation.org/stone/

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm

“For acute alcoholism Dr. Klenner has giving 1000 mg of thiamin intramuscularly every two hours until recovery. Pyridoxine, 500 mg is given every six hours. 40 grams of C intravenously will detoxify the patient.”
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

regards, Juergen

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 23, 2005 at 6:19:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston
You wrote or better Dan Russell said about addiction:

Dan Russell: It’s a combination of different things. People are more prone
to neurotic inebriative behavior if they are frustrated in their own lives
and its directions, if they can’t do what they want to do with their
lives.
I mean, there are addictions to sex, to gambling, to drugs, but when
addiction experts look at these things, they find they are all rooted in
the
same kinds of psychological frustrations. They are not different, the
addictions, to sex, drugs, or gambling, they’re an escapist, neurotic
thing
rooted in the same causes.
You don’t seperate them out psychologically. So when addiction experts try
to deal with addiction, what they find they are dealing with is not
pharmicological, but in root frustration. The inability to get work they
like, for instance, drives a lot of people completely crazy.

### if you look it with a  pychological approach Dan Russell is quite close
to the truth.

###If you look at it spiritualy, is different. The observer change the
object of his observation. Right ?
It Is like electricity, each scientist had a different definition following
his inclination and his field of study.

##The problem with addiction as a dis-ease is to
know at what point the user stop to exercise  HIS   free will ?
From my personal experience, we all started at a very different point than
when we quit on the lader of pleasure. We can start for different reasons
but generally we all quit because we are tired of being tired. What’s
happens in between, you tell me.
At what point we start to use more than we want, against our will? Where is
the invisible line ? Is that  invisible line the same for all of us? Some
have to die  to be abble to free themselves.
While I was writing this E-mail, I went outside to smoke a cig and I saw an
amazing thing. I have two Parrots in the garden and they where feeding
consenciously two wild Pigeon outside of their cage, trowing them seeds. So,
I thought, even Parrots are trying to help strangers !!

That the real nature of real human beings too, not to destroy themselves or
others or escaping in some artificial paradise. Lonely pleasure are
frustrating and get boring to death.

Francis
God bless

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id911/pg2/index.html

Disinformation: So then, what’s your definition of “addiction”?

Dan Russell: It’s a combination of different things. People are more prone
to neurotic inebriative behavior if they are frustrated in their own lives
and its directions, if they can’t do what they want to do with their
lives.
I mean, there are addictions to sex, to gambling, to drugs, but when
addiction experts look at these things, they find they are all rooted in
the
same kinds of psychological frustrations. They are not different, the
addictions, to sex, drugs, or gambling, they’re an escapist, neurotic
thing
rooted in the same causes.
You don’t seperate them out psychologically. So when addiction experts try
to deal with addiction, what they find they are dealing with is not
pharmicological, but in root frustration. The inability to get work they
like, for instance, drives a lot of people completely crazy.

Disinformation: OK, define “pharmaco-phobic.”

Dan Russell: That’s a literal term. Pharmaco-phobia is quite like
ethno-phobia, which is how you define racism. It has a political purpose
and
a political generation.
Cocaine is a perfect example. This culture is taught to hit the roof at
the
mention of cocaine, taught to hate cocaine. But when you talk to your
average bourgeois twit, he doesn’t know a goddamned thing about cocaine.
Often he doesn’t even know where it comes from. What you’re dealing with
there is the phoney reason to make war on Native Colombians and take
control
of the Upper-Putumayo, just as how we were taught to go crazy at the word
“Communism.”
Ho Chi Minh was a communist. Well, I was still only 20 in 1965 and very
much
a part of this scene, but most of the people who went crazy and hated the
Vietcong didn’t know anything about the Vietcong.

Disinformation: They just listened to the propaganda.

Dan Russell: Right, it’s that kind of thing. It had a political purpose,
to
make you support the War.
snip-
lots and lots more at above URL. It’s a 4 or 5 page interview.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge

Hi Peter !
Thank you for your E-mail 🙂

You wrote :

Francis, what I mean is that certain types of explanation are
prescientific, because they use prinicples that can not be verified.
Certain terms imply forces of magic.For instance: If a gypsy passes
by and ‘bewitches’ a child ( knoweable because the child has panic
dreams each night) the ’cause ‘ of the childs behaviour is not a
psychological reaction of the child to a fearful event, but the
transport forem the gypsy towards the child of a ‘force’ that
necesarily changes the kid until the force has been ‘excorcised’.
Thye childs behaviour is not a reaction understandable in principles
of human behaviour, but understandable only in terms of magic.
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

#If I understood you don’t reject the existence of  ” magical forces”
that
can affect our well-being and our thinking process ?/!

You wrote :
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

# I agree with you, what is ” scientific” today could be  considered
quakery
tomorrow. Science can’t explain everything like spontaneous remissions
and
phenomenon behind the actual knowledge and the limitation of  the
infinitely
small to understand the infinitely Great

You  wrote :

Addiction is a concept  from the times of magic, and concveys the
impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
it does not apply  e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
the human individual powerless.

You wrote :Addiction is a comcept from the time of magic.

# You are probably right, but looking for one of he most  ancient use of
the
word addiction. From the latin addicere ‘to devote’ “to allot” and “to
adjudge or give over.” Thus, “addicere” meant “to give (oneself) over to
“–i.e.,” to give in or surrender”*
In the ancient Roman law “Addicere” is to adjudge a thing or the
possession
of a thing to one of the litigant parties.Addicere was used too to give
a
man to another man, one of the first judicial justification of ….
slavery.
Then in the 18 Th century addiction became a recognizable medical entry.
This is in my humble definition of addiction : to devot, to give youself
in
slavery to a substance, another human being , a compulsive behavior or
an
entitie.

You think the change happen only in the brain ?/! My belief system is a
bit
different….and will appear a  bit magical for some, logical for
others….
Drugs open the door of perceptions but in the same time open the Soul to
anyt Entitie that could possesse the powerless user..
Give me only the name of an Exorcist or scholar of possession  who  will
said the contrary .

About the myth of the learning part and Spiritual research,  self
discovery
in  drug use.  ?/!.
All the great religions Pre Buddhism, Hindouism, Sumerians, Maya ,
Ancient
Grecs ,and probably ancient Jews had flirted for a while with the use of
drug  . Then they all at one point dismiss and condemned it .Even the
priest
where forbidden of using  Why ?/! ( side effects ?/! addiction ?/!
social
chaos ?/!)

Tell me, only one thing, what exactly ,can I learnt by using drugs that
I
can’t learnt throught Meditation and Contemplation. What can I achieve
spiritualy  ?/!.As a free man , with only the tools that God gave me.
Spirituality it’s a very simple thing and it’s only based on faith and
lack
of doubt.Then come the blessing, the peace, the joy, the strenght….ect

What is the agenda of the drug pusher ? if not : control, greed or self
justification for is own use and abuse ?/!

About Ibogaine. I have been lurking for a while on this list. I have my
answer : this product work .!! And I will use it ASAP :to free people
from
theirs chemical jails.You bet !!  🙂

Francis
God bless

Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
to fit in this power game of drugs.
pc

At 22:00 -0500 22-02-2005, The Garden wrote:
Peter Cohen wrote ::

I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.

* pre scientific ?  When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??

I went to see a definition of scientific :
Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation
to
demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion
that
validates or modifies the hypothesis.

OR because you have the authority to do so:
Proving an opinion to be correct
Persuading someone to accept your proof.
Persuading people that you detain the truth.
Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ?
Refering
here to the psychiatrist industry
Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t
know
, it at to be mental
Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together
with
their traditional cultures

Now show something that a scientist  can see he will believe it !!.
The
Scientist mind  is  so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor
Weisskopf
,
physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and
another
atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”

“I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT
while
I
was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not
explain
this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
quantum chromo dynamics”.
Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New
Scientist

Few magicians including your humble ”  serviteur ” enjoy  the pleasure
of
fooling  very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is
patient
with ” animal magnetism

Infornunately, theirs  so called scientific approach and  limitating
beliefs
system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost,
soul
,
Possession, God etc…
I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.

Francis
God Bless

“I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I
write”
” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
Hunter S. Thompson


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Effexor-Schmoolyboy
Date: February 23, 2005 at 5:28:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m on 150mg of Effexor XL per day.  I’m interested in what you said about it increasing anxiety as I suffer from that aswell as depression.  Sounds like Effexor may not be helping?  I’ve been on it probably a year and can’t say I’ve noticed much difference except that I can’t cope physically or emotionally if I miss more than one days worth.  I was going to ask my Doc if he would give me valium as I get so anxious and cry all the time and can’t cope with seeing people, even close friends, even though the isolation then makes my depression worse!  I used to be on Prozac and that made my anxiety worse.  I’ve used Cipramil too but didn’t notice much difference.  My ex says I should just stop them all together and sort my head out straight but he doesn’t know how scary depression can be.  Any info would be appreciated!

Love Hannah
—– Original Message —–
From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP

effexor increases serotonin initially and after 2 weeks also increase epinephrine thus increasing anxiety

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 23, 2005 at 4:27:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id911/pg2/index.html

Disinformation: So then, what’s your definition of “addiction”?

Dan Russell: It’s a combination of different things. People are more prone to neurotic inebriative behavior if they are frustrated in their own lives and its directions, if they can’t do what they want to do with their lives.
I mean, there are addictions to sex, to gambling, to drugs, but when addiction experts look at these things, they find they are all rooted in the same kinds of psychological frustrations. They are not different, the addictions, to sex, drugs, or gambling, they’re an escapist, neurotic thing rooted in the same causes.
You don’t seperate them out psychologically. So when addiction experts try to deal with addiction, what they find they are dealing with is not pharmicological, but in root frustration. The inability to get work they like, for instance, drives a lot of people completely crazy.

Disinformation: OK, define “pharmaco-phobic.”

Dan Russell: That’s a literal term. Pharmaco-phobia is quite like ethno-phobia, which is how you define racism. It has a political purpose and a political generation.
Cocaine is a perfect example. This culture is taught to hit the roof at the mention of cocaine, taught to hate cocaine. But when you talk to your average bourgeois twit, he doesn’t know a goddamned thing about cocaine. Often he doesn’t even know where it comes from. What you’re dealing with there is the phoney reason to make war on Native Colombians and take control of the Upper-Putumayo, just as how we were taught to go crazy at the word “Communism.”
Ho Chi Minh was a communist. Well, I was still only 20 in 1965 and very much a part of this scene, but most of the people who went crazy and hated the Vietcong didn’t know anything about the Vietcong.

Disinformation: They just listened to the propaganda.

Dan Russell: Right, it’s that kind of thing. It had a political purpose, to make you support the War.
snip-
lots and lots more at above URL. It’s a 4 or 5 page interview.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge

Hi Peter !
Thank you for your E-mail 🙂

You wrote :

Francis, what I mean is that certain types of explanation are
prescientific, because they use prinicples that can not be verified.
Certain terms imply forces of magic.For instance: If a gypsy passes
by and ‘bewitches’ a child ( knoweable because the child has panic
dreams each night) the ’cause ‘ of the childs behaviour is not a
psychological reaction of the child to a fearful event, but the
transport forem the gypsy towards the child of a ‘force’ that
necesarily changes the kid until the force has been ‘excorcised’.
Thye childs behaviour is not a reaction understandable in principles
of human behaviour, but understandable only in terms of magic.
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

#If I understood you don’t reject the existence of  ” magical forces” that
can affect our well-being and our thinking process ?/!

You wrote :
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

# I agree with you, what is ” scientific” today could be  considered quakery
tomorrow. Science can’t explain everything like spontaneous remissions and
phenomenon behind the actual knowledge and the limitation of  the infinitely
small to understand the infinitely Great

You  wrote :

Addiction is a concept  from the times of magic, and concveys the
impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
it does not apply  e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
the human individual powerless.

You wrote :Addiction is a comcept from the time of magic.

# You are probably right, but looking for one of he most  ancient use of the
word addiction. From the latin addicere ‘to devote’ “to allot” and “to
adjudge or give over.” Thus, “addicere” meant “to give (oneself) over to
“–i.e.,” to give in or surrender”*
In the ancient Roman law “Addicere” is to adjudge a thing or the possession
of a thing to one of the litigant parties.Addicere was used too to give a
man to another man, one of the first judicial justification of …. slavery.
Then in the 18 Th century addiction became a recognizable medical entry.
This is in my humble definition of addiction : to devot, to give youself in
slavery to a substance, another human being , a compulsive behavior or an
entitie.

You think the change happen only in the brain ?/! My belief system is a bit
different….and will appear a  bit magical for some, logical for others….
Drugs open the door of perceptions but in the same time open the Soul to
anyt Entitie that could possesse the powerless user..
Give me only the name of an Exorcist or scholar of possession  who  will
said the contrary .

About the myth of the learning part and Spiritual research,  self discovery
in  drug use.  ?/!.
All the great religions Pre Buddhism, Hindouism, Sumerians, Maya , Ancient
Grecs ,and probably ancient Jews had flirted for a while with the use of
drug  . Then they all at one point dismiss and condemned it .Even the priest
where forbidden of using  Why ?/! ( side effects ?/! addiction ?/!  social
chaos ?/!)

Tell me, only one thing, what exactly ,can I learnt by using drugs that I
can’t learnt throught Meditation and Contemplation. What can I achieve
spiritualy  ?/!.As a free man , with only the tools that God gave me.
Spirituality it’s a very simple thing and it’s only based on faith and lack
of doubt.Then come the blessing, the peace, the joy, the strenght….ect

What is the agenda of the drug pusher ? if not : control, greed or self
justification for is own use and abuse ?/!

About Ibogaine. I have been lurking for a while on this list. I have my
answer : this product work .!! And I will use it ASAP :to free people from
theirs chemical jails.You bet !!  🙂

Francis
God bless

Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
to fit in this power game of drugs.
pc

At 22:00 -0500 22-02-2005, The Garden wrote:
>Peter Cohen wrote ::
>
>I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
>bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
>primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
>still lingers on in the perception of many, the
>ibo clan included.
>
>   * pre scientific ?  When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??
>
>I went to see a definition of scientific :
>Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
>demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
>investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
>formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to
>demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion
that
>validates or modifies the hypothesis.
>
>OR because you have the authority to do so:
>Proving an opinion to be correct
>Persuading someone to accept your proof.
>Persuading people that you detain the truth.
>Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ?
Refering
>here to the psychiatrist industry
>Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t
know
>, it at to be mental
>Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together with
>their traditional cultures
>
>Now show something that a scientist  can see he will believe it !!.  The
>Scientist mind  is  so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor >Weisskopf
,
>physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and
another
>atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”
>
>”I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT while >I
>was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not >explain
>this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
>quantum chromo dynamics”.
>Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New Scientist >”
>Few magicians including your humble ”  serviteur ” enjoy  the pleasure >of
>fooling  very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
>Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is
patient
>with ” animal magnetism
>
>Infornunately, theirs  so called scientific approach and  limitating
beliefs
>system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost, >soul
,
>Possession, God etc…
>I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.
>
>Francis
>God Bless
>
>”I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I
write”
>” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
>     Hunter S. Thompson
>


>————————————————-
>Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>University of Amsterdam
>
>Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
>mail address: postbox  94208
>1090 GE Amsterdam
>
>email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>fax +31-20-525 4317
>
>World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 23, 2005 at 4:05:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Then they all at one point dismiss and condemned it .Even the priest
where forbidden of using  Why ?/! ( side effects ?/! addiction ?/!  social
chaos ?/!)<

Because it ain’t right that the commoners be able to commune with “god” by using sacraments- only the priest (or doctor these days) is allowed to talk directly to god.

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id911/pg1/

Disinformation (Preston Peet): Discuss the function of “inebriative behavior.” Do you think there is an actual mental function inbred into us from which inebriative behavior comes?

Dan Russell: Yes. People’s dreams, in whichever culture, don’t vary. In other words, the dreams of 3-year old Polynesian kids from the 18th Century are identical to the dreams of 3-year old American kids now. They don’t vary. You can go to China in the 16th Century and look at drawings of little children there, and they’ll be exactly the same as the drawings of modern European kids in France. Regardless of the era.
Carl Jung went and did it empirically. I mean, you could have 2000-year old drawings of children from Israel, and they are identical to modern 2 and 3 year-olds in Europe, or China.
What you are dealing with there is that in reality the bulk of the mind, like the body, is universal in Human Beings, and that is part of Jung’s empirical “proof” of the archetypes of the collective unconscious. There’s not a lot of physical difference between people, nor a significant mental difference. The overwhelming majority of your psyche is the “collective unconscious,” if you want to call it that.
Your personal experiences are unique and individual, but your needs for food, sleep, affection, all are pretty much universal and identical to everybody else. Those are the basic drives. The mental imagery that comes up in relation to that is also identical in people. This is empirically demonstrable.
So, when you talk about the archetypal inebriative function, it’s a case of talking about the archetypal function of eating. The dentition is millions of years old, and inherently omnivorous. So is the relationship to the plant world.
In other words, animal imagery comes up automatically to people in dreams. It can come out in urban people who have no experience of Paleolithic hunting. It has to do with the reality that in dreams you are contacting that part of your being which has an evolutionary existence, which exists way past your individual existence. When you talk about the archetypal, the evolutionary, automatic function of inebriative behavior, it is quite like talking about the automatic function of hunger, if you get sick, or want to go somewhere spiritually.
Images that are famous in human mythology as archetypal images–the Apple, the Tree, the Golden Flower–all mythologies are rooted in this imagery, archetypal, shamanic herbal imagery.
There are no mythologies that are not, just as there are no tribal cultures anywhere on Earth for whom an inebriative herb wasn’t the central sacrament and totem of the culture.
And just as psychologically, we’re all tribal.

Disinformation: So, we’re all still going after or chasing that?

Dan Russell: It is automatic, like hunger, and it’s visceral, an oral thing, again, quite like hunger.
Hunger is not volitional. Neither are inebriative instincts and urges. That’s why it is not controllable by law. It’s like trying to control sex by law. It can’t be done, and has never been done.

Disinformation: Which brings us to the criminalizing of culture.

Dan  Russell: It has to do with the process of enslavement. When you take a free tribe and enslave it, if you destroy the central sacrement of its culture, it’s how you commit cultural genocide, and how to domesticate them.

snip-
(lots more of this interview at the above link)
—–

http://www.drugwar.com/cure.shtm

snip-
The fixation on “sobriety” is as sick and manipulative as the fixation on celibacy or witchcraft. By “witchcraft” the medievals usually meant pharmaco-shamanism, the essence of the spiritual spontaneity of pre-industrial cultures. Tribal cultures have always valued occassional spiritual intercourse with the “parental hermaphrodite,” as the Greek Gnostics put it, that’s why they called it “sacred marriage.” When one is “in the spirit” in church, one is “drunk on God,” not sober. Because of the social support, there is nothing dangerous about this state, but one would be insane to get behind the wheel of car. Not everything we do is an industrial activity, Bismark to the contrary notwithstanding.

As alcohol Prohibition abundantly proved, Prohibition causes alienated inebriative behaviors. It also, unquestionably, institutionalizes organized crime, military fascism, the driving engine of both the medieval Inquisition and today’s Drug War. To allow the likes of the BIA, the WCTU, Wiley, Hoover, Anslinger, Bennett, Califano and McCaffrey to dictate medical and pharmakon law to our culture is precisely the equivalent of allowing the sadistic Kramer and Sprenger, authors of the Malleus Maleficarum, to control medical and pharmakon law in sixteenth-century Germany. It was done, but it triggered endemic bloodletting that drove the culture mad.

Jung: “Much, that is to say, that proves to be abysmally evil in its ultimate effects does not come from man’s wickedness but from his stupidity and unconsciousness. One has only to think of the devastating effects of Prohibition in America or of the hundred thousand autos-da-fé in Spain, which were all caused by a praiseworthy zeal to save people’s souls. One of the toughest roots of all evil is unconsciousness, and I could wish that the saying of Jesus, ‘Man, if thou knowest what thou doest, thou art blessed, but if thou knowest not, thou art accursed, and a transgressor of the law,’ were still in the gospels, even though it has only one authentic source. It might well be the motto for a new morality.”

That authentic source was Gnostic Christian, not Orthodox. Orthodox Christianity is too intentionally unconscious, building fascist political hysteria, a scapegoat, into its canon, as the Gnostics, who claimed descent from the Essenes, the Iassai, the “Healers,” Jesus’ Hebrew sect, did not. The difference between Christian gnosis, or for that matter any other kind of gnosis, and Orthodox Christianity is the difference between Joshua, an Israeli war shaman who abhorred Roman slavery as the very definition of evil, and Augustine, a Roman slaver, who extolled slavery as the height of divine wisdom.

It is the difference between Crazy Horse and Custer, between the Essene Dead Sea Scrolls and the Pauline New Testament. Although Paul’s Greek was based on the Essene Hebrew, a whole hell of a lot was lost in translation (see Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda). Paul was not Jesus, however hysterically he and his followers confuse eidolon with pharmakon. Iasius (“The Healer”) didn’t say he was the eidolon; he said he was the pharmakon, what the Essenes, the Iassai, the “Jesuses,” on Dead Sea scrolls we have, called “the plant of truth.”

(image)
Iasius, the healer, arises from Demeter’s sacramental cauldron, amidst floating mushrooms and vines; from a Greek sacramental vase, c.500 BC; Cook

Evangelical Protestantism, a Rennaissance German religion, changed the dogmatic Catholic image of Christ, which included a sacramental apprehension of the Mother of God. Mary was an image that Catholicism, the last great syncretism of the ancient world, was very careful to nurture.  Protestantism instituted a more patriarchal Jesus, who stressed community and business ethics, and abhorred all mysticism. It suppresses the ancient feminine imagery completely, burying the inherently pharmaco-shamanic, the inherently ecstatic and sacramental, image of the Holy Mother. But the psychic pull of the feminine can’t be so easily manipulated, since we are all born of the womb and first drink at the breast.

Holy Mother Churches are powerful political institutions precisely because that’s where many people, snug within the sanctioned confines of their adopted tribe, come closest to shamanic emotions. Shamanic analogues are the way inside the mind. Many churches, of course, are far more concerned with helping their communicants call up the Holy Spirit than with politics, and music is a fine substitute for pharmacology. Pan played the pipes. But it’s good to remember that Pan was a Goat, not a Lamb.

(image)
Inlay from the Soundbox Harp of Ur, c.3000 BC:
“On meeting Gilgamesh as he searched for the land of the magical fruit trees, the scorpion-man says to his wife, ‘The body of him who has come to us is flesh of the gods.'”

Music is obviously a genuine shamanic technique with which innumerable communicants call up, or attempt to call up, the Holy Spirit every week. It is the fascist extrapolation of this, that, since we do it one way, all other ways ought to be illegal, that is the problem. That extrapolation, unfortunately, is built into Orthodox Christian theology. The fascist error is political, not necessarily religious, if such a distinction can be made within the confines of Pauline theology.

Buzz-word disinformation – constant, effective association of the archetypal herbal imagery with social chaos and stress – can manipulate a culture like a puppet on a string. That is, sacramental herbal imagery – the Burning Bush, the Tree of Life, the Cross, the Blood of Christ, the contents of the Chalice – the Kalyx, the “Flower-Cup” – the Golden Apples, the Golden Flower – is instinctive. Like animal imagery, plant imagery comes up automatically in dreams.

The archetypal mammalian imagery is understood emotionally, unconsciously, leaving its recipients susceptible to authoritarian suggestion. Hitler used the wheel of life, the swastika, and the Star of David, both ancient shamanic images, to great effect with this technique. The Theban sacramental vase below dates to 700 BC. The swastikas have nothing to do with Hitler, but everything to do with the contents of the vase and the meaning of dreams. If Christ is the Fish, then He is in the right place.

(image)
Theban sacramental vase, c. 700 BC; Harrison:1

The body, and its automatic imagery, are the sea we swim in. In a climate of legal industrial terrorism, the prohibitionist argument that sacramental herbs must be equated with social chaos makes perfect emotional sense because the target assumes that the planted attitudes, rooted in its own dream imagery, are its own. It is the dream imagery that is sacred, not its demonization.

Marijuana is illegal, as Rasta shamans still insist, precisely because it is sacred to tribal peoples. The ancient Herb is a true sacrament capable of helping to call up the Holy Spirit of Jah. It is a connection to, real magic of, Holy Mother Earth – biological magic. But it simply is not legal anymore to be an Mbuti from the Ituri forest. It is no longer permissable to be part of the ecstatic forest, because that mitigates against industrial values. The forest, we are told, is no longer our awesome Holy Mother, but just so many board-feet of lumber, and the Mbuti, well, they can be made to haul the lumber. Slaver law – assembly line law – Suharto law – prevails.

Social chaos, conducive to the militarization of culture, is also created by the legal equation of the ancient sacramental herbs with refined alkaloids and poisons – sort of like legally equating Judaism with treason and pedophilia, a classic technique Hitler got from the medievals. Above, North Africa’s favorite sacramental herb, khat, with which untold generations of Yemenis have gone personally to sit with the Prophet.

(image)
Engraved Bone, France, c. 13,000 BC; Mainage

That stag, and the floating-eyed shaman who carved him into bone, lived in France, 15,000 years ago. Should the Inquisition end, values other than industrial will pervade the culture. The thoughts of the animals will once again become visible. Nektar will again flow from the breast. Flowers will again reveal the respiration of the Earth. The “demographics,” as they did in the 60’s, will go haywire for the promulgators of the Official Faith. That’s the peril the Bismark heads see in sophisticated adult shamanism. The assembly line would cease to be the official state religion. Mother Earth would be remembered.
snip-

—–

http://www.drugwar.com/inquisition.shtm

snip-

In 1873 Comstock engineered An Act for the Suppression of Trade in, and Circulation of, obscene Literature and Articles of immoral Use – “The Comstock Law”: “That whoever…shall sell…or in any manner exhibit…or shall have in his possession…any obscene book, pamphlet…or other representation…or any cast, instrument or otherarticle of an immoral nature, or any drug or medicine…for the prevention of conception, or for causing unlawful abortion, or shall advertise the same for sale…shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor…and on conviction thereof, he shall be imprisoned at hard labor in the penitentiary for not less than six months nor more than five years for each offense…” Comstock was made a special agent of the Post Office Department with the power to open the mail. His New York Society served as an army of private deputies.

Comstock’s language and asumptions can all be found in the Malleus Maleficarum, the official handbook of the medieval Inquisition. As Pope Innocent VIII put it, in 1484, in pharmaco-shamanic language, “…applying potent remedies to prevent the disease of heresy and other turpitudes diffusing their poison to the destruction of many innocent souls…” Does that sound like the Drug War to you? “Drug” “addiction” is a “plague,” an “epidemic,” a “scourge” of “poison”; all that comes straight out of the Malleus Maleficarum, which admits it’s all really a “turpitude.”

In 1878 Comstock went to Madame Restell, a famous Cockney midwife established at 52nd & 5th in Manhattan for years. Although she was 67 and retired, she took pity on Comstock, who entrapped her by posing as a distraught husband whose hysterical wife was unable to sustain yet another pregnancy. On receiving medication, Comstock made his drug bust and threw the old lady in the Tombs. Facing a certain five years at hard labor, the distraught old woman cut her own throat. Comstock proudly told the papers she was the fifteenth midwife he had driven to suicide.

Comstock’s last case was his most famous. In 1915 he arrested Margaret Sanger, below, for publishing her own magazine, Woman Rebel (“No Gods, No Masters”), which dealt explicitly with female medicine, sexual repression, labor organization and strike tactics. She was charged on nine counts of obscenity, a possible 45-year sentence.
snip-
—-

And this:

http://www.drugwar.com/euro.shtm

snip-

“Savages,” then, were children, our children, in need of “tough love,” just as our children, today, are “savages” in need of “tough love.” In fact, of course, it was the condescending paternalism of these pioneering anthropologists that was childlike. As both their art and material achievements indicate, Europe’s Upper Paleolithic hunters could outfight, outrun and outthink most moderns with ease, just just as Geronimo and Crazy Horse did against some very tough pony soldiers. Picasso was awestruck by the genius he found on the ancient cave walls of the Pyrenees.

We are not more intelligent and less mammalian than our forbears because we are more industrialized; mechanical evolution is a mechanical process. We eat, sleep, procreate, love our children, play, pray, sing, get sick and medicate ourselves, and our sophistication regarding these largely unconscious biological processes, the most important in our lives, is demonstrably inferior to that of many tribal cultures.

Herbal knowledge, like knowledge of animal ways, is instinctive, biological knowlege, knowledge that connects us to our identity, our roots in the Earth. There is no distinction between plant biochemistry and human biochemistry. This is our food. Many human neurotransmitters are chemically identical to herbal alkaloids. Most sacramental herbs actually work by triggering or repressing our own neurotransmitters. Since we share our evolution with these sacred foods, their identity is dream-knowledge, accessible in cultures that foster such knowledge.
snip-
—–

and this:

http://www.drugwar.com/mescal.shtm

snip-

An 1890 BIA directive continued the tradition of pharmacological lucidity so brilliantly established by agent Clark: “It is the duty of the government peremptorily to stop the use of this bean by the Indians. You will direct the police of your agency to seize and destroy the mescal bean, or any preparation or decoction thereof, wherever found on the reservation. The article itself, and those who use it are to to be treated exactly as if it were alcohol or whiskey, or a compound therof; in fact it may be classified for all practical purposes as an ‘intoxicating liquor.'”

Added the JAMA, no less: “Certain Sons of Belial, taking advantage of the tendency of the Indians to religious ceremonial, have been industriously spreading the word among the tribes that partaking of Peyote enables the addict to communicate with the Great Spirit. It is true that certain Mexican tribes have long had a superstitious reverence for mescal buttons and have used them on occassion in religious ceremonials; and this old superstition gave the commercial dope vendor a great opportunity among the Indians in the United States. This has been carried so far that the ‘Peyote Church’ has actually been incorporated, the members being devotees, who gather for an orgy of frenzy, far worse than the cocain parties held among the negroes.”

snip-
—–

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge

Hi Peter !
Thank you for your E-mail 🙂

You wrote :

Francis, what I mean is that certain types of explanation are
prescientific, because they use prinicples that can not be verified.
Certain terms imply forces of magic.For instance: If a gypsy passes
by and ‘bewitches’ a child ( knoweable because the child has panic
dreams each night) the ’cause ‘ of the childs behaviour is not a
psychological reaction of the child to a fearful event, but the
transport forem the gypsy towards the child of a ‘force’ that
necesarily changes the kid until the force has been ‘excorcised’.
Thye childs behaviour is not a reaction understandable in principles
of human behaviour, but understandable only in terms of magic.
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

#If I understood you don’t reject the existence of  ” magical forces” that
can affect our well-being and our thinking process ?/!

You wrote :
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

# I agree with you, what is ” scientific” today could be  considered quakery
tomorrow. Science can’t explain everything like spontaneous remissions and
phenomenon behind the actual knowledge and the limitation of  the infinitely
small to understand the infinitely Great

You  wrote :

Addiction is a concept  from the times of magic, and concveys the
impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
it does not apply  e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
the human individual powerless.

You wrote :Addiction is a comcept from the time of magic.

# You are probably right, but looking for one of he most  ancient use of the
word addiction. From the latin addicere ‘to devote’ “to allot” and “to
adjudge or give over.” Thus, “addicere” meant “to give (oneself) over to
“–i.e.,” to give in or surrender”*
In the ancient Roman law “Addicere” is to adjudge a thing or the possession
of a thing to one of the litigant parties.Addicere was used too to give a
man to another man, one of the first judicial justification of …. slavery.
Then in the 18 Th century addiction became a recognizable medical entry.
This is in my humble definition of addiction : to devot, to give youself in
slavery to a substance, another human being , a compulsive behavior or an
entitie.

You think the change happen only in the brain ?/! My belief system is a bit
different….and will appear a  bit magical for some, logical for others….
Drugs open the door of perceptions but in the same time open the Soul to
anyt Entitie that could possesse the powerless user..
Give me only the name of an Exorcist or scholar of possession  who  will
said the contrary .

About the myth of the learning part and Spiritual research,  self discovery
in  drug use.  ?/!.
All the great religions Pre Buddhism, Hindouism, Sumerians, Maya , Ancient
Grecs ,and probably ancient Jews had flirted for a while with the use of
drug  . Then they all at one point dismiss and condemned it .Even the priest
where forbidden of using  Why ?/! ( side effects ?/! addiction ?/!  social
chaos ?/!)

Tell me, only one thing, what exactly ,can I learnt by using drugs that I
can’t learnt throught Meditation and Contemplation. What can I achieve
spiritualy  ?/!.As a free man , with only the tools that God gave me.
Spirituality it’s a very simple thing and it’s only based on faith and lack
of doubt.Then come the blessing, the peace, the joy, the strenght….ect

What is the agenda of the drug pusher ? if not : control, greed or self
justification for is own use and abuse ?/!

About Ibogaine. I have been lurking for a while on this list. I have my
answer : this product work .!! And I will use it ASAP :to free people from
theirs chemical jails.You bet !!  🙂

Francis
God bless

Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
to fit in this power game of drugs.
pc

At 22:00 -0500 22-02-2005, The Garden wrote:
>Peter Cohen wrote ::
>
>I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
>bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
>primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
>still lingers on in the perception of many, the
>ibo clan included.
>
>   * pre scientific ?  When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??
>
>I went to see a definition of scientific :
>Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
>demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
>investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
>formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to
>demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion
that
>validates or modifies the hypothesis.
>
>OR because you have the authority to do so:
>Proving an opinion to be correct
>Persuading someone to accept your proof.
>Persuading people that you detain the truth.
>Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ?
Refering
>here to the psychiatrist industry
>Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t
know
>, it at to be mental
>Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together with
>their traditional cultures
>
>Now show something that a scientist  can see he will believe it !!.  The
>Scientist mind  is  so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor >Weisskopf
,
>physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and
another
>atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”
>
>”I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT while >I
>was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not >explain
>this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
>quantum chromo dynamics”.
>Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New Scientist >”
>Few magicians including your humble ”  serviteur ” enjoy  the pleasure >of
>fooling  very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
>Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is
patient
>with ” animal magnetism
>
>Infornunately, theirs  so called scientific approach and  limitating
beliefs
>system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost, >soul
,
>Possession, God etc…
>I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.
>
>Francis
>God Bless
>
>”I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I
write”
>” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
>     Hunter S. Thompson
>


>————————————————-
>Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>University of Amsterdam
>
>Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
>mail address: postbox  94208
>1090 GE Amsterdam
>
>email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>fax +31-20-525 4317
>
>World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>languages)

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 23, 2005 at 3:40:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt, I still have using dreams sometimes. I had one just before I went to the conference, probably because I knew that there are 10 dollar bags of Heroin in NYC. I can’t believe that I went there with money in my pocket and never even thought about Heroin. I realized that I had gotten through the weekend without it crossing my mind yesterday. I’ve used drugs for so long that I don’t think that I could change a dream pattern about it in 5 months. They scare me, but they are kinda cool. I need the reminders. Let me quote Patrick, ” FREEDOM FUCKING ROCKS!!               Randy

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: February 23, 2005 at 3:32:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Donna,

I’m still struggling financially and still wanting to do the Ibogaine (feels like forever).  You said he cost £600 plus his expenses.  Does this include your Ibogaine?  How much approx. would his costs be?  Wouldn’t he be coming over from abroad so surely his costs would be pretty high?  Let me know anyway.  In an ideal world I’d go to Sara’s but I don’t think I’ll ever be able to afford that in the near future (btw how much does it cost to go over and be treated by Sara?) so I’m looking at trying to arrange a session in England.

And how are you doing?  Are you back on the Subutex yet?  I really hope you’re well.  I’m a bit crappy. It’s been nearly 3 months since my boyfriend dumped me and I’m still gutted by it and cry all the time.  Where as he moved on to a new girl in 2 weeks!  That’s what hurts the most.  I’m trying to understand myself but it’s so difficult.  I was clean (apart from the Sub) for a month but recently got back into it for about a month and it seems ten times harder to stop it now.  It doesn’t help that my dealer keeps ringing me!

I think now would be a really helpful time for me to do Ibogaine though I would like to have money for a booster dose after if necessary.  I could afford to just buy some over the Net but I’d rather do it properly than waste the experience.  And I’ve got a hell of alot of shit to work through!

Anyway, I hope you are well?  I still haven’t caught up on the list-I’m 1491 emails behind!

Love Hannah
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.

Hi Steve

I am looking to do the ibo in the new year there is a guy called Brian who comes to your home to treat you he charges £600 plus his expenses are you in the UK???  talk to Jasen about what he experienced he was so helpful.  I wish you all the luck in the world

:Love donna

From: “synn stern” <synn1@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 23, 2005 at 3:21:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

post-withdrawal drug-dreams are just as ubiquitious as those “final exam” dreams many adults still get.

you know: you suddenly remember you registered for a course at the beginning of the semester, and now it’s final exam-time, and you don’t even know where the exam is being given, but you have to take it, and you’re going to fail [or whatever your own version of that school-anxiety dream is].

residual anxiety, nothing more. and oh-so-common.

Synn

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 23, 2005 at 2:55:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matthew,

Around week 4 I started getting those dreams
too…personally, I feel it’s your body cleaning
itself out and re-regulating all your systems.

I’m going on 4.5 months, and I haven’t had a drug
dream for quite some time.  Ironically enough, the
last drug dream I had involved snorting coke (which I
hate) with several exotic dancers while driving a semi
truck down a twisting highway covered in sheer black
ice!  Ha!

In what context were you using drugs in your dream-
ie. set and setting, outcomes?  I think you should
concentrate on those elements and forget about the
actual using part.  And remember- time heals all….

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 23, 2005 at 2:31:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Peter !
Thank you for your E-mail 🙂

You wrote :

Francis, what I mean is that certain types of explanation are
prescientific, because they use prinicples that can not be verified.
Certain terms imply forces of magic.For instance: If a gypsy passes
by and ‘bewitches’ a child ( knoweable because the child has panic
dreams each night) the ’cause ‘ of the childs behaviour is not a
psychological reaction of the child to a fearful event, but the
transport forem the gypsy towards the child of a ‘force’ that
necesarily changes the kid until the force has been ‘excorcised’.
Thye childs behaviour is not a reaction understandable in principles
of human behaviour, but understandable only in terms of magic.
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

#If I understood you don’t reject the existence of  ” magical forces” that
can affect our well-being and our thinking process ?/!

You wrote :
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.

# I agree with you, what is ” scientific” today could be  considered quakery
tomorrow. Science can’t explain everything like spontaneous remissions and
phenomenon behind the actual knowledge and the limitation of  the infinitely
small to understand the infinitely Great

You  wrote :

Addiction is a concept  from the times of magic, and concveys the
impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
it does not apply  e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
the human individual powerless.

You wrote :Addiction is a comcept from the time of magic.

# You are probably right, but looking for one of he most  ancient use of the
word addiction. From the latin addicere ‘to devote’ “to allot” and “to
adjudge or give over.” Thus, “addicere” meant “to give (oneself) over to
“–i.e.,” to give in or surrender”*
In the ancient Roman law “Addicere” is to adjudge a thing or the possession
of a thing to one of the litigant parties.Addicere was used too to give a
man to another man, one of the first judicial justification of …. slavery.
Then in the 18 Th century addiction became a recognizable medical entry.
This is in my humble definition of addiction : to devot, to give youself in
slavery to a substance, another human being , a compulsive behavior or an
entitie.

You think the change happen only in the brain ?/! My belief system is a bit
different….and will appear a  bit magical for some, logical for others….
Drugs open the door of perceptions but in the same time open the Soul to
anyt Entitie that could possesse the powerless user..
Give me only the name of an Exorcist or scholar of possession  who  will
said the contrary .

About the myth of the learning part and Spiritual research,  self discovery
in  drug use.  ?/!.
All the great religions Pre Buddhism, Hindouism, Sumerians, Maya , Ancient
Grecs ,and probably ancient Jews had flirted for a while with the use of
drug  . Then they all at one point dismiss and condemned it .Even the priest
where forbidden of using  Why ?/! ( side effects ?/! addiction ?/!  social
chaos ?/!)

Tell me, only one thing, what exactly ,can I learnt by using drugs that I
can’t learnt throught Meditation and Contemplation. What can I achieve
spiritualy  ?/!.As a free man , with only the tools that God gave me.
Spirituality it’s a very simple thing and it’s only based on faith and lack
of doubt.Then come the blessing, the peace, the joy, the strenght….ect

What is the agenda of the drug pusher ? if not : control, greed or self
justification for is own use and abuse ?/!

About Ibogaine. I have been lurking for a while on this list. I have my
answer : this product work .!! And I will use it ASAP :to free people from
theirs chemical jails.You bet !!  🙂

Francis
God bless

Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
to fit in this power game of drugs.
pc

At 22:00 -0500 22-02-2005, The Garden wrote:
Peter Cohen wrote ::

I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.

* pre scientific ?  When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??

I went to see a definition of scientific :
Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to
demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion
that
validates or modifies the hypothesis.

OR because you have the authority to do so:
Proving an opinion to be correct
Persuading someone to accept your proof.
Persuading people that you detain the truth.
Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ?
Refering
here to the psychiatrist industry
Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t
know
, it at to be mental
Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together with
their traditional cultures

Now show something that a scientist  can see he will believe it !!.  The
Scientist mind  is  so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor Weisskopf
,
physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and
another
atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”

“I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT while I
was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not explain
this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
quantum chromo dynamics”.
Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New Scientist ”
Few magicians including your humble ”  serviteur ” enjoy  the pleasure of
fooling  very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is
patient
with ” animal magnetism

Infornunately, theirs  so called scientific approach and  limitating
beliefs
system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost, soul
,
Possession, God etc…
I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.

Francis
God Bless

“I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I
write”
” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
Hunter S. Thompson


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 23, 2005 at 2:03:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

lee, what you describe sounds just like scientology (no offense, i just think it´s funny): reworking of past traumas, combination of science and spirituality. then becoming ‘clear’ and ‘OT’.

Am 23.02.2005 um 12:21 schrieb Lee Albert:

LMAO
What I mean on my web site is that my search for a way home is ended because after trying everything from:
1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary
2. Primal therapy
3. Rebirthing etc
4. Counselling
5. Endless travelling
6. Reading
7. Isolation
8. Vegetarianism
……
I finally found a way to enter my deepest self, examine my past, transform it and come out changed and forward moving via eboga.
I use the terms seek, transform and expand somewhat cheek in tongue :-). What I am saying is that for me I have had to rebuild my inner and outer world by working through all the developmental traumas that have warped my ability to relate in all sorts of ways. This takes time but I find it a worthwhile exercise as I grow deeper in myself, my relationship to life and friends and my understanding of spirituality. Fortunately, I moved beyond the scientific position and had the humilty to reexamine much which is dismissed by science – spirituality. I do this scientifically. You could say I practise spiritual science.
My search for a way has ended but the journey is not over!
Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting communiques
from interzone.those signals grow more faint while doctor
benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to the signal….

i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all the time so that 6mg is
always the best dose for you?
the other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that
your search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for what
purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and
expand.”” ?
fondest regards ekki

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 23, 2005 at 1:52:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i´ve been to two NA meetings lately (because of my drivers licence).
one of the guys shared that he had a dream about using the night before. he is clean since years and has those dreams twice a year, but thats not a problem.
i had a dream last night, too. i was dreaming to attend an NA meeting. it took place in a big building with small rooms, bare masonry and carpentry surrounded by barbed wire and i got into an argument with the others. one guy wanted to beat me up. i decided not to run away or to fight back and he let go of me. finally people dispersed into different places in and around the building and i somehow got away.

matt, my suggestion: don´t worry about those dreams and don´t try to deal with them. don´t make an issue out of it . dreaming is healing from within and if things come up this is good. just watch and listen inside, this is enough.
-ekki

Am 23.02.2005 um 18:56 schrieb matthew zielinski:

Hi

For the past two days ive been having very vivid dreams where ive been shooting down and up with all the effects these drugs produce, ie the warmth,energy etc..Its fucken frustrating becuase today being 5 weeks a few days clean im getting these overwhelming cravings which i know have been caused by those motherfucking nightmares..Although my will power is still unborken  and i feel strong;  i am worried if these continue i might succumb to the hellish temptetion –just to prove to my self its not worth it, but then i m uncertain what the consequence of my action would amount to….another ibogaine seesion is out of the question for now since i still suffer from chest pains from the last sesion…i know majority of recovering addicts experience these dreams..how have yyou dealt with them?

Warmest Regards

Love—-Matt—

 

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Using dreams
Date: February 23, 2005 at 12:56:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
For the past two days ive been having very vivid dreams where ive been shooting down and up with all the effects these drugs produce, ie the warmth,energy etc..Its fucken frustrating becuase today being 5 weeks a few days clean im getting these overwhelming cravings which i know have been caused by those motherfucking nightmares..Although my will power is still unborken  and i feel strong;  i am worried if these continue i might succumb to the hellish temptetion –just to prove to my self its not worth it, but then i m uncertain what the consequence of my action would amount to….another ibogaine seesion is out of the question for now since i still suffer from chest pains from the last sesion…i know majority of recovering addicts experience these dreams..how have yyou dealt with them?
Warmest Regards
Love—-Matt—

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] [ot] NYT Book Review Advert Sunday 27st Feb
Date: February 23, 2005 at 7:31:07 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear List,

Just wanted to let you know that an ad will appear this coming Sunday 27th (according to my information!) in the New York Times Book Review Section for the book Amazing Grace.

Its not a big deal but if you are reading the paper you might like to catch it.

BTW anyone in the NY area that can save me a copy of the Review please do. I’ll send you my address off list.

Cheers,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 23, 2005 at 7:15:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter,

I have been trying to avoid your argument because theres a lot of text that needs studying and I cannot give it the attention but I want to respond to some of what you are saying:

You write:

Addiction is a concept from the times of magic, and concveys the
impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
it does not apply e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
the human individual powerless. Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
to fit in this power game of drugs.
and

>I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
>bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
>primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
>still lingers on in the perception of many, the
>ibo clan included.
I respond:

Peter you have not taken ibogaine and so that limits your understanding without a doubt. You also seem to have little regard for the idea of “possession” or perhaps I misunderstand you and you are refering to the mis-appropriate use of the term possession. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. (BTW possession by and large is irrelevant to the results of ibogaine. Its just an interesting aside to know about.) Your argument appears to be very rational without regard for real living spirituality. Your argument is almost atheist one could say?

If i dissect what you say here I get two things:

1. You argue that there are very scientific reasons for the taking of the drug and so to discontinue use one should apply more science and reasoning and not put your faith in an external power or believe that the taking of the drug imposed some external force upon the will of the person, i.e., you don’t believe that the drug may have weakened the person spiritually thus allowing negative forces to prey off the weakness of the individuals body in order to underminine the soul.

2. Any reasoning which supports the idea of external powers intervening to help in the elimination of the desire to use drugs is quasi scientific and is applied quasi scientifically, i.e., It is an idea which fails to see that the problem boils down to a drug interacting with a persons body and nothing more.

To which I say:

There is a world of difference between superstition and spirituality. Superstition is based on fear and ignorance. Spirituality is based on experience and results. And in my mind this kind of spirituality is not quasi scientific but actually is very scientific. Its a science which is   understandable by those who practise spirituality with results (the proof of the pudding…). I am glad I had the humility to move beyond my scientific training … to reach out to the new.

One can kick drugs with a purely deterministic state of mind. It aint going to be nice and I imagine after, life will suck, or, one can recognise the mounting evidence that ibogaine (eboga) resets the brain chemistry and shows us the reasons why we become dependent on a substance in the first place via the help of a spiritual world.

I think until you properly appreciate what eboga is you should be careful not to undermine its cause by arguing that we should all be fighting for the right to take any drug as opposed to fighting for ibogaine. You are doing the ibo-camp no favours and actually undermining our cause. (if I understand your position correctly?) You are thus unwittingly damaging the cause of a very healing substance used for centuries in Africa where by the way it is not illegal.

My position re: supporting the legalisation of all drugs as opposed to working towards the legalisation of ibogaine is this. I am against it. Yes I support the legalisation of all drugs but I don’t support confusing this with the particular case of ibogaine (eboga). One should not depend on the other. There are not the same.

Why?

It undermines the effort to bring the benefits of ibogaine to public attention and makes the likelihood of ibogaine being legalised anytime soon very remote. It also splits the ibo-camp in its effort to legalise ibogaine. This camp is held together by the enormous benefits ibogaine offers. Not because the ibo-clan are drug loving users. But because they know the healing it brings. Imagine a senate hearing: sorry senator but I want to insist that all drugs are legalised, not just ibogaine and this is why……. smoke up my ass ….. homosexuality….. Now senator are we agreed you are going to legalise ibogaine? No! Why not, you ignorant bastard…by the way there’s smoke coming out your ass!

In a nutshell what are you asking of the ibogaine clan that justifies undermining the enormous good that ibogaine (eboga) is doing for people? I really would like to know. Because if there is something that justifies your position (in a nutshell & no more) please tell me and I will support it. It has to be utterly amazing!!!!!

BTW are you atheist?

Lee

P.S. I hope I understood you correctly!

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl> wrote:
Francis, what I mean is that certain types of explanation are
prescientific, because they use prinicples that can not be verified.
Certain terms imply forces of magic.For instance: If a gypsy passes
by and ‘bewitches’ a child ( knoweable because the child has panic
dreams each night) the ’cause ‘ of the childs behaviour is not a
psychological reaction of the child to a fearful event, but the
transport forem the gypsy towards the child of a ‘force’ that
necesarily changes the kid until the force has been ‘excorcised’.
Thye childs behaviour is not a reaction understandable in principles
of human behaviour, but understandable only in terms of magic.
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.
Addiction is a concept from the times of magic, and concveys the
impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
it does not apply e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
the human individual powerless. Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
to fit in this power game of drugs.
pc

At 22:00 -0500 22-02-2005, The Garden wrote:
>Peter Cohen wrote ::
>
>I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
>bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
>primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
>still lingers on in the perception of many, the
>ibo clan included.
>
> * pre scientific ? When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??
>
>I went to see a definition of scientific :
>Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
>demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
>investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
>formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to
>demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that
>validates or modifies the hypothesis.
>
>OR because you have the authority to do so:
>Proving an opinion to be correct
>Persuading someone to accept your proof.
>Persuading people that you detain the truth.
>Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ? Refering
>here to the psychiatrist industry
>Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t know
>, it at to be mental
>Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together with
>their traditional cultures
>
>Now show something that a scientist can see he will believe it !!. The
>Scientist mind is so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor Weisskopf ,
>physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and another
>atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”
>
>”I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT while I
>was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not explain
>this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
>quantum chromo dynamics”.
>Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New Scientist ”
>Few magicians including your humble ” serviteur ” enjoy the pleasure of
>fooling very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
>Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is patient
>with ” animal magnetism
>
>Infornunately, theirs so called scientific approach and limitating beliefs
>system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost, soul ,
>Possession, God etc…
>I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.
>
>Francis
>God Bless
>
>”I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I write”
>” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
> Hunter S. Thompson
>


>————————————————-
>Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>University of Amsterdam
>
>Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
>mail address: postbox 94208
>1090 GE Amsterdam
>
>email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>fax +31-20-525 4317
>
>World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 23, 2005 at 6:21:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LMAO
What I mean on my web site is that my search for a way home is ended because after trying everything from:
1. Catholicism/Christianity/Seminary
2. Primal therapy
3. Rebirthing etc
4. Counselling
5. Endless travelling
6. Reading
7. Isolation
8. Vegetarianism
……
I finally found a way to enter my deepest self, examine my past, transform it and come out changed and forward moving via eboga.
I use the terms seek, transform and expand somewhat cheek in tongue :-). What I am saying is that for me I have had to rebuild my inner and outer world by working through all the developmental traumas that have warped my ability to relate in all sorts of ways. This takes time but I find it a worthwhile exercise as I grow deeper in myself, my relationship to life and friends and my understanding of spirituality. Fortunately, I moved beyond the scientific position and had the humilty to reexamine much which is dismissed by science – spirituality. I do this scientifically. You could say I practise spiritual science.
My search for a way has ended but the journey is not over!
Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting communiques
from interzone.those signals grow more faint while doctor
benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to the signal….

i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all the time so that 6mg is
always the best dose for you?
the other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that
your search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for what
purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and
expand.”” ?
fondest regards ekki

Am 22.02.2005 um 20:37 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Ekki,
>
> Yes I am and it assists me in an ongoing program of “seek, transform
> and expand.”
>
> At 6mg approx. I have the optimum amount I can work with personally
> without bringing on rejection and also allowing me to relax and let
> the eboga entities be present and work with me from issue to issue.
>
> I have many different areas of personal development ongoing and I work
> from one to another as the occasion warrents. Its a program of
> overlapping resolution and expansion of my personal self.
>
> Once you find your own thread, hold onto it and it will lead you home.
>
> Lee
>
> ekki wrote:
>
> Am 22.02.2005 um 11:28 schrieb Lee Albert:
>
> > Hi Ekki,
> >
> > Lucky for you the rootbark came in around 5%. You must have done your
> > homework on the dose levels beforehand.
> >
> > So what are you hoping for with continued use?
> >
> > Lee
> >
>
> i don´t plan another full dose for myself in near future.
> maybe small booster doses.
> are you still taking small amounts yourself, and why or why not?
>
>
>
> /]=——————————————————————–
> -=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=——————————————————————–
> -=[/
>
>
>
>
> Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over
> a six year period.
> www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
> Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media /
> librarians etc:
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 23, 2005 at 5:19:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis, what I mean is that certain types of explanation are
prescientific, because they use prinicples that can not be verified.
Certain terms imply forces of magic.For instance: If a gypsy passes
by and ‘bewitches’ a child ( knoweable because the child has panic
dreams each night) the ’cause ‘ of the childs behaviour is not a
psychological reaction of the child to a fearful event, but the
transport forem the gypsy towards the child of a ‘force’ that
necesarily changes the kid until the force has been ‘excorcised’.
Thye childs behaviour is not a reaction understandable in principles
of human behaviour, but understandable only in terms of magic.
The decision about which terms are to be considered ‘scientific’ is
in iteslef an matter of dispuite and historic development.
Addiction is a concept  from the times of magic, and concveys the
impact of the drug on the behaviour. It does not study the reasons
for taking the drug and maintaining this behaviour in other terms ,
it does not apply  e.g.the prinicples of learning to the behaviour,
there is this magic change ( now located in the brain) that renders
the human individual powerless. Only another power ( a drug, ibo) can
change the behaviour. People really believe this and create all sorts
of quasi scientific reasons for this, because their explanation has
to fit in this power game of drugs.
pc

At 22:00 -0500 22-02-2005, The Garden wrote:
Peter Cohen wrote ::

I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.

* pre scientific ?  When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??

I went to see a definition of scientific :
Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to
demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that
validates or modifies the hypothesis.

OR because you have the authority to do so:
Proving an opinion to be correct
Persuading someone to accept your proof.
Persuading people that you detain the truth.
Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ? Refering
here to the psychiatrist industry
Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t know
, it at to be mental
Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together with
their traditional cultures

Now show something that a scientist  can see he will believe it !!.  The
Scientist mind  is  so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor Weisskopf ,
physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and another
atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”

“I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT while I
was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not explain
this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
quantum chromo dynamics”.
Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New Scientist ”
Few magicians including your humble ”  serviteur ” enjoy  the pleasure of
fooling  very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is patient
with ” animal magnetism

Infornunately, theirs  so called scientific approach and  limitating beliefs
system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost, soul ,
Possession, God etc…
I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.

Francis
God Bless

“I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I write”
” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
Hunter S. Thompson


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 23, 2005 at 4:06:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee,

to be honest – I really don’t know. I just wrote what is written in the
cited book, that’s all. I’m quite sure you can get this book in the local
library, because it’s that “family” kind of books, with lots of very good
reproductions…

I’m not an expert in angels, nor in the Bible; but one of these days I’ll
get the Septaguint translation, and read it according to the data
presented in The Great Lie.

Could be really enlightening 😉

Marko

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Lee Albert wrote:

Marko,
When you say Jesus is Lucifer’s twin brother in what sense are you refering to Lucifer: as angel of light or as devil? In other words are you talking Catholic folklore about Satan as devil or are you refering to the more historically correct (?) version of Lucifer as an angel of light where for reasons of translation he became equated with the devil.
Lee

marko@mindvox.com wrote:

Dana,

I wouldn’t agree with you on this (which doesn’t mean that I agree with
the rest of your e-mail 😉

I’ve read a great book, The Great Lie, by Michael Kalopoulos, and he
demistyfies the whole lineage of patriarchs, from Abraham to Moses; and
it seems (according to the author) that the Passover started with some
“magician” tricks, continued with some exagerration, and ended with
mass poisoning of everyone who ate bread made with yeast (Egiptyans, of
course)… very interesting, because Moses forbid all his people to eat
yeast-made bread during that specific time; even more, he explicitely
told them what to eat, and in what form, and what not to eat…

Whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, and David
Copperfield knows even better – so, it were just quite simple tricks…
I think that Iboga was not used in Egypt, but Mandragora surely was!

Another thing, about Jesus: he is Lucifer’s (Satan’s) twin brother
(Malcolm Godwin: Angels, An Endangered Species).

Don’t ask me how or why, I’m just stating what is written ;-))

Marko

On 2/22/2005, “Dana Beal” wrote:

Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus wasn’t just faster than
a speeding bullet, but had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with
the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say that whatever the
Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was
in Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to Palestine.

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 23, 2005 at 3:19:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

lee, your name makes me think of agent lee transmitting communiques from interzone<internet>.those signals grow more faint while doctor benway gains more power and eddie the sponge tunes in to the signal….

i wonder if your tolerance stays the same all the time so that 6mg is always the best dose for you?
the other thing that wonders me is that you write on your page that your search is complete like you´ve been led home already. for what purpose do you maintain a “ongoing program of “seek, transform and expand.”” ?
fondest regards ekki

Am 22.02.2005 um 20:37 schrieb Lee Albert:

Ekki,

Yes I am and it assists me in an ongoing program of “seek, transform and expand.”

At 6mg approx. I have the optimum amount I can work with personally without bringing on rejection and also allowing me to relax and let the eboga entities be present and work with me from issue to issue.

I have many different areas of personal development ongoing and I work from one to another as the occasion warrents. Its a program of overlapping resolution and expansion of my personal self.

Once you find your own thread, hold onto it and it will lead you home.

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 22.02.2005 um 11:28 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Ekki,
>
> Lucky for you the rootbark came in around 5%. You must have done your
> homework on the dose levels beforehand.
>
> So what are you hoping for with continued use?
>
> Lee
>

i don´t plan another full dose for myself in near future.
maybe small booster doses.
are you still taking small amounts yourself, and why or why not?

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 23, 2005 at 3:02:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

two days ago, after a touch of powder i went to a shopping mall to get a futon and a fax. it was snowing and everything outside white and everything inside had this glow. very beautiful.
i feel eboga makes one more sensible for peoples faces, while there is alot of suffering in some of them, others seem to have a unpersonal radiation , not good not bad, maybe i make this up.

Am 23.02.2005 um 08:01 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

Currently a touch of powder on the tongue seems to do the job for
ibogaine. For stronger effects, I rely on ayahuasca in a church
setting.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:46:14 -0800 Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
If your psyche is suppressing the dose then I would consider
lowering your dose to the point where you feel no suppression and
work from there with investigative intent.

Lee

slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Note that iboga may never give you this experience again, no
matter
what the dosage – as you change, its effect on you changes as
well.
Or maybe if you wait some years the chances would be better.

I wonder if anyone who has done multiple significant doses can
report on the dosages, the time between, and the comparable
effects?

In my own case, my psyche has learned how to suppress the effects
of large doses – there is no choice. I can feel the repression
start as iboga begins and fear rises, like a heavy iron door
shutting. I have never been able to release.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 04:31:51 -0800 ekki wrote:
i recently tried a mini-session and didn´t like it
that
much, i missed the being blown away to mystical africa and outer
space

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—–=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine
over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the
media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 23, 2005 at 2:01:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Currently a touch of powder on the tongue seems to do the job for
ibogaine. For stronger effects, I rely on ayahuasca in a church
setting.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:46:14 -0800 Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
If your psyche is suppressing the dose then I would consider
lowering your dose to the point where you feel no suppression and
work from there with investigative intent.

Lee

slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Note that iboga may never give you this experience again, no
matter
what the dosage – as you change, its effect on you changes as
well.
Or maybe if you wait some years the chances would be better.

I wonder if anyone who has done multiple significant doses can
report on the dosages, the time between, and the comparable
effects?

In my own case, my psyche has learned how to suppress the effects
of large doses – there is no choice. I can feel the repression
start as iboga begins and fear rises, like a heavy iron door
shutting. I have never been able to release.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 04:31:51 -0800 ekki wrote:
i recently tried a mini-session and didnīt like it
that
much, i missed the being blown away to mystical africa and outer
space

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate
Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

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[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
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\]=—————————————————————-

—–=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine
over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the
media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Possession and pre scientific knowledge
Date: February 22, 2005 at 10:00:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter Cohen wrote ::

I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.

* pre scientific ?  When started this amazing ” Scientific Era ” ??

I went to see a definition of scientific :
Definition : The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the
formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to
demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that
validates or modifies the hypothesis.

OR because you have the authority to do so:
Proving an opinion to be correct
Persuading someone to accept your proof.
Persuading people that you detain the truth.
Persuading people that if they don’t think like you they are sick ? Refering
here to the psychiatrist industry
Persuading people that if they suffer from an dis- ease that you don’t know
, it at to be mental
Persuading people that natural remedies had no values all together with
their traditional cultures

Now show something that a scientist  can see he will believe it !!.  The
Scientist mind  is  so gullible :-). See what Proffessor Victor Weisskopf ,
physicist who studied under Niels Bohrr and worked on the A Bomb and another
atom smasher ,said about Uri Geller “the metal bender:”

“I was shocked and amazed how Mr Geller bent my office key at MIT while I
was holding it. The sturdy key kept bending in my hand; I can not explain
this phenomenon I can only assume that it could relate could relate to
quantum chromo dynamics”.
Not so long ago… Uri geller at the covert page of the ” New Scientist ”
Few magicians including your humble ”  serviteur ” enjoy  the pleasure of
fooling  very rational minds regularly.Sometime we mesmerize them .
Mesmerize from Mesmer , famous, austrian medecin who use to treat is patient
with ” animal magnetism

Infornunately, theirs  so called scientific approach and  limitating beliefs
system stop them from investigating the Unseen. Like spirits, ghost, soul ,
Possession, God etc…
I am still looking for a scientific definition of good.

Francis
God Bless

“I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I write”
” I don’t believe in objectivity ”
Hunter S. Thompson

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Cohen” <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Preston, your summarizing of my views is quite
right.Dana is not able or willing to read my
stuff,nor understand it, let alone summarizing it.
About the physical side of intense and frequent
drug use, of course there is a biological
component.
But I do not see its relevance.
Thomas Szasz once wrote that the physical aspects
of an erection do not explain falling in love
with a particular woman, or men visiting
prostitutes. There is a lot of biology involved
in sexuality, but what types of sex are
criminalised , what types of bonding society
accepts or not, are totally different matters.
Of course people develop tolerance, or a longing
to repeat the most wanted effects of drugs(
untill they no longer count) but what does this
have to do with societies activity of prohibiting
some drug use behaviours?
I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.
pc

At 11:47 -0500 22-02-2005, Preston Peet wrote:
Dana wrote about Peter Cohen’s theories I take it:

Blasphemous for anyone who insists that
addiction isn’t really neurochemical, but a
matter of social construction– that society
constructs the user as addict. Since
tolerance/withdrawal/craving don’t really
exist, and are not deemed to vary from one
substance to another, Ibogaine can’t really be
doing anything special, so the effect must be
from mind-control by ibogaine@mindvox. Not only
that, since ibogaine is more dangerous than
heroin (in proper medical doses) if you chose
to exaggerate its dangerousness, this
particular cult is offering poison koolaid.<

Could someone please point me out a quote or
comment by Peter Cohen, and also forward this
note to him as I can’t find his email address in
my box for some reason, that says this? Is this
really what Cohen has been saying? If not, what
is he really saying about “addiction” in a
nutshell- does it really have a physical aspect
in his opinion, or is he really saying it’s
merely a “social construct” and that there isn’t
really anything to “addiction” in a physical
sense at all? I haven’t seen anything like this
out of him, what I’ve seen is him saying there
needs to be more focus, in his opinion, on doing
away with the illegality of narcotics and the
criminalizing of those who use narcotics to
self-medicate or simply have fun, that it’s the
criminalizing that’s causing so many if not most
of the problems associated with drugs. He seems
to me to be saying that in his opinion, focusing
on “getting people off drugs” is copping out to
the prohibitionist viewpoint, that it puts the
users into a catagory which can then be
ostrasized and attacked and locked up and
basically treated like “niggers.” If I’m getting
this wrong, please correct me, by including some
quotes of Peter Cohen’s that say one thing or
another about his opinions on addiction and it’s
“reality.”
Thanks. Again, please someone forward this to
Peter Cohen himself. Thanks kindly.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to
Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology
and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:13 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
That’s not true Dana, now your fibbing. I was at
the conference and you and Peter were screaming
at each other in the hallway so loud it was
louder than the back of the room which was the
only place left to stand.

I don’t think Mr. Clear cares what you all did
as long as you weren’t the ones who set the
hotel on fire, since he gave Patrick the opening
plenary to speak to 1200 people and talk about
the ibogaine panel but you are not telling the
truth.

Not to refute anything else in your message but
you and Peter were yelling and you were making
threats.

Heated words is not the same as yelling insults.
And Peter, even though he says I was angry,
absolves me of any threats. What would I
threaten him with? Threaten to eviscerate his
argument? Hold him up to ridicule on the list?
Threaten that no one with any direct experience
with ibogaine would take him seriously?

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
Being a chronic pothead is no healthier then
being a heroin addict and yes you can say pot
has all kinds of health benefits and so too does
heroin. Harm reduction objects to your belief
that all of us need to be cured and get healthy
like people smoking pot all day. Give it a rest.

The crowd represented by P. Cohen has argued the
action of cannabis and opiates in the brain are
really the same; but the dose-response curve is
totally different: every morning you do pot, you
don’t have to keep escalating the dose. The
cannabidiol in cannabis is a mild glutamate
antagonist–much weaker than ibo but it stops
build-up of tolerance.

I think ibogaine is a amazing thing but here’s
news for you, people using drugs are no sicker
then
you Dana, who is another person who uses drugs
all the time. What’s the message in that?

It’s stretching the point to equate vegetable
matter with injectable white powders, but you
missed the point of my post, which has to do
with a system of regulation of legalized drugs.
Putting in a coffee shop system (albeit one
where people are discouraged from mixing tobacco
and cannabis) is aimed mainly at replacing
alcohol and tobacco, which kill 150,000 and
450,000 people a year in the U.S. from accidents
and cancer respectively, with something that
kills no one.

I’ve never heard Dr. Cohen attack the use of any
drug or mandate that anyone has to take
anything. Dana Beal spent the whole 90’s doing
exactly that and suggesting forced marijuana
maintenance after ibogaine. Which are exact
quotes of what you used to say, you’ve given
that speech at Hash Bash dana.

Nothing forced about it. For some people it works.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I
smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of
herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me
the chair or nothin’. They might come over and
drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but
I’m willin’ to take that risk.

and

I’m on the marijuana maintenance plan. I am
jokin’ ya know. I don’t see herb as a problem
tho. Can you say Harm Reduction? Randy

Obviously for a marijuana-friendly crowd I’m
going to emphasize the pot-friendly aspect of
ibogaine. BTW, 4 people long-connected with the
management of the Hash Bash were just treated,
successfully, for their various opiate, etc.
addictions with Ibogaine. I don’t think they’re
going to stop toking up.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Nah, I don’t want to pay for any plane fares,
Dana. It’s just fun to give you shit. I just
can’t help myself. Those darn relapsing
junkies… sorry that it always goes that way.

Wasn’t asking you to pay for anything. It’s just
that I have to be relatively straight to put on
this forum, i.e: some people expect me to
reimburse them for their fares when they get
here, for instance. Can’t have people telling
them: “He’s off doing ibogaine today, you’ll
have to wait.”

What, the man who knows iboga to be the holy
Eucharist, the man who wrote the book, the man
who spread the word of ibogaine (according to
you) can’t hustle some up? In all these years
there has never been an opportunity? Strange. I
really can’t think of a better place than
surrounded by the art of Alex Grey. Unless you
have tidied up your house a bit, it’s better
there, no? Though your cats could be good
company.

Of course I’ve had it at times. It’s just that
I’ve always taken the position that you need a
legitimate medical reason to do it, which I now
have. Same as medical marijuana: you can smoke
all you want, but don’t claim it’s medical if
it’s not. #9 would be a fine place to do ibo, in
the slow season. Which is the reason I wanted to
do it in November. (At least Mark could have
helped with that mortgage). Between now and May
7 I’m busy as can be.

Another question that’s been burning a hole in
my head: How did Jesus get his hands on iboga?
How did he get it in the wine? The Romans had
trade routes to Gabon? Iboga grew in the Holy
land? Jesus could fly faster than a speeding
bullet? It’s just that you say it’s “Implicit.”
Curious, that’s all.

You know in my book I said it was peganum
harmala, which is abundant in Palestine, and
figured in the initiation rite for the Persian
Emperor, the King of Kings. Since the book was
published I’ve become aware of evidence that
iboga may have played a similar role in Egypt,
where friezes on walls of tombs, etc. show the
Pharaoh consorting with pygmies–symbols of
iboga due to their 20 thousand year association
with it throughout Africa. They’re about one per
cent of the population in Rwanda and Burundi,
and Iboga looks to be much more widespread than
Gabon, occurring throughout the Congo basin and
up into the Rift valley–just up the Nile from
Egypt, so to speak.

And since it’s a rootbark, it travels rather
well. A natural tradegood. If the Pharaohs had
cocaine and nicotine, why not Iboga? So I’ve
come to the conclusion that ibo could have been
substituted for ephedra in the particular soma
mixture prepared for the Grail. It would
certainly be more neuroprotective, since it’s
been patented by Olney for stroke and ischemia
(ischemia is a kind of stroke that killed the
victims of crucifixion). And it would have
incorporated the legitimacy of the Pharaonic
equivalent of harmala and of the Pharaohs
themselves into the mantle of the King of Kings.

Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus
wasn’t just faster than a speeding bullet, but
had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with
the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say
that whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew,
Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was in
Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to
Palestine.

The Romans? Well, if they knew about it, the
trick wouldn’t have worked, would it?

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
I noticed that remark about ibogaine being the
same as methadone or any other treatment and the
“cult” comment. My first thought was that
someone who did Ibogaine and CHOSE to remain
sober from everything got his ear and turned him
off, possibly. For someone trying to promote his
stance on all drugs it probably sounded like
blasphemy!

Blasphemous for anyone who insists that
addiction isn’t really neurochemical, but a
matter of social construction– that society
constructs the user as addict. Since
tolerance/withdrawal/craving don’t really exist,
and are not deemed to vary from one substance to
another, Ibogaine can’t really be doing anything
special, so the effect must be from mind-control
by ibogaine@mindvox. Not only that, since
ibogaine is more dangerous than heroin (in
proper medical doses) if you chose to exaggerate
its dangerousness, this particular cult is
offering poison koolaid.

If he is at the conference and would like to
have a short chat with someone who was on
methedone and heroin and cocaine for over 20
years and tried to stop hundereds of times and
only had success with ibogaine, I would be
willing. I also at this moment in time am
choosing to remain sober of everything but quite
possibly for different reasons than others.

It wouldn’t do any good, because Peter is not
particularly interested in talking to ibo-nauts.
Far from making threats, I was trying to
continue a conversation with him; but it was my
impression that he had stated his argument, and
was not particularly interested in any facts or
people that contradict it. Facts, as I told him
at the time, are stubborn things.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Sure, Dr. Cohen is a blathering fool for saying
iboga is the same as methadone, but his comments
on legalization are helpful. Why not have a
combination of harm-reduction,
de-criminalization and more and better treatment
options?

Sounds like my position.

Help from non-addicts as well as addicts? Fine,
if it is a disease, don’t arrest me and make me
pray to god to get better. Options and choice
are lovely things. Sure, we like iboga better
than methadone; I have friends who were really
helped by methadone.

But in New Orleans there was Joyce Woods from
NAMA, kind of smirking when Peter was giving his
rap. She was the one back in ’91 who got me in
trouble with John Morgan by sending him the memo
that Howard and Sisko wrote, which I was trying
to get her to get them to change before it was
released on the ACT UP floor, because it seemed
to put their comment on methadone in his mouth.
I’d just left the only copy with her aide, Tom
Ward (one of the squatters then on a jihad to
take over the annual pot parade, which WE had
started 25 years earlier) who urged her to send
it to Morgan before I had a chance to call her
back. “Putting words in Morgan’s mouth” got me
blackballed in NORML and the DPF for a decade.
And all it amounted to was careless writing
Howard and Bob would have changed if she’d
called them, instead of Morgan.

But the whole DPF crowd were just looking for an
excuse, because they really didn’t like ibo to
begin with. Tom Ward went on to become a
crackhead, and after 9/11, a Bush supporter.

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
Being an ‘addiction specialist’, yet having no prior
firsthand experience with chemical dependency is kinda
like trying to write a paper about the sensation of
skydiving without ever having jumped- it’s gonna be
dry, detached and only partially-informed, and
strongly influenced by personal convictions and biases
rather than first-hand knowledge and experience.

Not exactly an addiction specialist. That’s
Peele. More like a specialist in the sociology
of addiction and prohibition.

Even some of Dr. Cohen’s work/views have merit; I just
find some of his ideas a little angering, especially
seeing as though Ibogaine has helped so many people,
myself included. Almost 4 months of clean time behind
me- the longest in four years. Why did Cohen find it
necessary to compare Ibogaine with the ‘Nazi’s cure
for homosexuality'(god, that’s f*cking horrible.)?
That just seems like an under-the-belt type of shot.

Well, because the comparison has been out there
for a while, and it’s the most alienating thing
the ibo opponents (proponents of heroin trials
who feel threatened by another live option) can
tell the people who determine AIDS policy in
this country. The object is to marginalize, to
keep us out of the legalization program.

As an ‘addictions specialist’, he is pretty quick to
dismiss the neurochemical side of dependence. I’m not
saying it’s the entire explanation for addiction, but
it certainly plays a role.

The point is to blur the distinction between use
(all of us would like to be able to use) and the
build-up of tolerance/withdrawal (not being
really able to enjoy using any longer).

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
A cult….To be or not to be
Are you a good cult or a bad cult?
Do we have to be a cult? How about a club with a
secret handshake? No that won’t work…to many
rules. I know, how about a list where pretty
much the only thing most people have in common
is a curiosity(interest) in ibogaine or are pre
or post and looking for info and a place where
they can check out some issues they have or
thoughts or get practical info. No one smacks
your hand with a ruler when you go off topic.
People come and go with no regular contact at
all.  No rules. It actually sounds like the
anticult.

When something like Ibogaine can’t be
marginalized by cold-shouldering the original
proponents as nut-jobs, when it puts down roots
and starts growing on its own, “cult” is the
next label you go to, I guess. But as I told
David Guard from DRCnet, when he remarked that
we both knew “leading personalities of the
legalization movement” had all decided a
psychedelic treatment for addiction had no
chance of being approved, our time and resources
are too valuable to waste on Lindesmith or the
Drug Policy Alliance, since we’re on a mission
for ibogaine. Don’t expect us to contribute
money, come to your conferences, or pay any
attention to you.

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same
league as these weird addiction doctors that
need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group
of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF
YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of
cure was to inhale a mixture of some
gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine
how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about
homosexuality!)

Actually, given the recent findings on Ibogaine
and binge behavior, it wouldn’t instill
heterosexuality, but rather stop you from
binging on speed and cialis and fucking 20 guys
in one night without a condom. Ironically,
that’s what many of the same people who voted to
discontinue Ibo development in ACT UP ten years
ago are looking for now. In the meantime,
however, the binge behavior in question created
super-AIDS.

The Nazi’s indeed had a cure for homosexuals;
mostly they gassed them to death in
extermination camps ( many tens of thousands of
them) together with jews and gypsies. That is
why I made my remark on the 1948 book, as I did

pc

So now I’m not just a DEA agent, I’m advocating the ovens!

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
I have never accpeted the old theory about
addiction as disease, nor much else about the
concept of addiction. I consider the concept of
addiction as an outgrowth ( in the 18th century)
of the then already used concepts of
‘possession, and being’bewitched’. Concepts that
refer to the snatching of the soul, or the will,
by an evil alien force. These concepts reflect
our incapacity to understand particular
behaviour as very ‘human’ and therefore they are
‘extra human’, alien. Drugs are an alien force (
like the devil , or a witch), and in the alcohol
litterature from the mid 18th century the model
for alcohol as a soul snatcher is created. Later
this model was generalised to other drugs. All
these soul snatchers ( witches, drugs alcohol
included), have been prohibited in the USA at
some time or another since the mid 17th century.

In your New Orleans talk, you were much more
explicit in linking this attitude set to
Jesuitical exorcism of demonic or Satanic
possession. I think that you omit the factors
that differentiate the attitudes of secular
Europeans from Protestant Americans. You know
this history, but for people on the list, it is
important to understand that after the reign of
Charlemagne, the Low Countries and Burgundy were
left under one kingdom. They became incorporated
into what became known as the Holy Roman Empire,
which included elector princes from there,
Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and
northern Italy. The Austrian Habsburg family
provided the Holy Roman Emperor and Spain,
although not technically part of the HRE, was
Austria’s partner through royal intermarriage in
the Habsburg Empire. Emperor Charles V, although
nominally Austrian, was a grandson of Ferdinand
and Isabella of Spain. He was responsible for
the transfer of power over the Low Countries to
Spanish Prince Philip in 1555.

This was terrible news to those Netherlanders
who dared convert to Reformation faiths—which
were especially catching on in the north. Spain
had a policy of exporting its most terrible
Inquisitions to lands that became subject to it.
This meant genocide for many Dutch, and things
became particularly bloody when in 1567 Spain
sent Fernando Alvarez de Toledo, Duke of Alva,
with an army of 10,000. He was know as the “Iron
Duke” and his “Blood Council” was responsible
for at least 20,000 executions, including
Protestant leader Counts Egmont and Hoorn.
Bodies would be hung in public squares, at
gateways into cities, and even over public
fountains as a form of gruesome intimidation
(which no doubt helped fuel epidemics.)

Genocide was being carried out by Spanish,
Belgian, and Dutch Catholics, but most Dutch
Catholics stopped helping the Spanish when
Toledo demanded a 10% sales tax for the Spanish
crown. Protestant exiles and Catholic deserters
formed a privateering fleet that defeated the
Spanish in the north, with English, Hanseatic,
and Danish financial support. Toledo retired in
1573 and was replaced by Luís de Zúñiga y
Requesens, whose troops mutinied that year.
Independence for the United Provinces of the
Netherlands was won by the sword and cannon, but
it would take 75 more years of struggle >for
Spain to recognize it. This 18-year Holocaust of
Protestants was a foretaste of what awaited
Germany and the Czech regions 45 years later in
the Thirty Years War.

Where you err is in failing to understand that
America was largely settled by Protestants who
were trying to get away from Popes and Emperors.
It wasn’t until the Irish potato famine that
significant numbers of Catholics settled
here–but under conditions of enforced
tolerance, where they were just another
religion. In fact, when Willie Nelson showed an
early version of Jack Herer’s book with this
Dutch history (from Georg Behr’s original hemp
book) to Ann Richards, she asked why they were
bashing Catholics, and they took it out of the
next edition.

Therefore, Americans do not see religion, or
salvation, as a bad thing, but as a basic human
right, that belongs to every individual. And in
fact, prohibition in the U.S. didn’t get started
until the 20th Century.

Modern neurological theory that says addiction
is brain disease is a small permutation of the
original dogma, that alien forces can deregulate
(sicken) our inner self, our core self.
Neurology tries to understand now where this
happens, and it says: in the brain. And
neurologists make theory about this and create
images ( brain scans they call them) to
illustrate their ideas. In a nutshell they say
that drugs will incapacitate the brain’s centers
of ‘good’ decision making and then they locate
the cells where this happens.( They, of course,
define what ‘good’ decision making is, not I,
the head of which they made the scan)

The power of half-lies is that they are
half-truths. Brainscans only indicate where the
activity is taking place. A better way to
understand it is that every chemical we put into
the body sets off its own particular cascade of
effects. You don’t get narcotic effects from
stimulants, or psychedelic effects from
narcotics. All drugs are not equivalent, nor are
all drugs equally popular with druggies. Heroin
will never have the mass following of cannabis,
no matter how many experts on both side of the
legalization debate say that their action in the
brain is really the same.

If addiction is a way of learned adaptation, we
should no longer use the word addiction, but ‘ a
life style in which the intense and sometimes
frequent use of drugs is an adaptive tool”.

Aside from the question of build-up of
tolerance, which no user really wants because
they don’t want to spend more money to get the
same result, the longterm learning which results
in cues in the environment triggering intense
cravings simply may not be very “intelligent.”
Mice bio-engineered to knock out the mGLUR5
receptor could not be trained to self-inject
cocaine. All other mice self-inject in
preference to food and water until they die. But
not these mice. Their dopamine was spiking,
their serotonin was spiking–they were getting
plenty of reward. But without the glutamate to
hardwire in the self-injection, they soon lost
interest and drifted back to their food and
water.

For regular mice, their learned adaptation was
fatal. What ibogaine seems to do is scrub this
particular glutamate pathway, without
interfering in interest in real rewards like
food, water, shelter, etc.

Sometimes tools become obsolete, and the
explanation of why so many people leave
dysfunctional adaptations is exactly that: loss
of usefulness.

But some tools may also carry heavy stigma
.Religeons were forbidden, sexual behaviours
chosen by some were forbidden, types( patterns)
of drug use are forbidden because they all
conflict with general ideals about human
existence. This is a sort of legitimization of
prohibiting these behaviours.

If a user takes ibogaine because of family
pressures, etc., and doesn’t really want to
quit, let me assure you that they are perfectly
capable of going back to drugs. It happens all
the time. That’s why we only claim a certain
success rate in getting people clean with
ibogaine. After ibogaine, you can really FEEL
your drugs. But beware of overdosing on your
regular dose following a session.

I agree fully with Dana that methadone is not
only a chemical compound, but much more an
instrument of discipline in a world that
prohibits the self chosen use of opiates in
spite of the fact that some people like them,
and some even need them to survive. If I choose
to use opiates it is not okay, but if my doctor
makes that choice for me, it is. We prohibit not
so much the opiate, but the intention and
symbolical context of some types of use. The
doctor can give me methadone to help me live
with my type of adapatation, but not the type of
opiate I like better.

Methadone can help people, but only ( or mostly)
at the conditions of the doctor.

And here we reach the core of what I would like
to clarify: the doctor stands for society’s
choice to prohibit me the self chosen use of
opiates. He wants me to be either abstinent, or
use his opaites in ways he prescribes.If I fail,
hopla. to jail ,or at least no more assistence.

Overcoming use and reaching abstinence is
society’s goal with me if I use opiates.
Overcoming ‘addiction’ by means of ‘treatment’
is what is supposed to happen. The ibo people
say: use ibo to overcome addiction.The
whitecoats say: use my compounds or life rules
to overcome.

But Ibogaine’s effect was discovered by a drug
user, and promoted for addicts by drug users.
AND the U.S. government apparently is trying to
extend its prohibition of ibogaine worldwide. By
shunning it and downplaying its significance
because of your institutional commitment to
schemes of opiate maintenance, the legalization
camp is complicit in this prohibition. Which
leads to this big split between the academics
and policy wonks on the one hand, and the addict
advocates of ibogaine.

My mistake is that I approach these things in a
too theoretical fashion. I reason: the desire to
become abstinent is a solid by product of our
social ways of prohibiting opiates and other
drugs, and the idea of an ideal human being that
lurks behind these prohibitions.

But, as some of the ibo people told me, it may
not be a by product of social force alone; it
may be a genuine desire ,never mind the way this
desire developed in me.

Okay. That is true.

If I approach the ibo people with this Okay,
could they approach me with more understanding
of my problems with the self chosen use of ibo?
Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social
context in which it has created its usefulness:
prohibition. I see ibo as ‘just one of these
treatments’ in a very symbolical sense.I am not
talking about the pleasure of taking ibo, or its
high level of interestingness, I am not refering
to its subjective functionality, but to its
social symbolism.

What if ibogaine is just a much more interesting
experience than doing coke or dope for the
umpteenth time? Why be stuck in a rut? We don’t
pay much attention to what the prohibitionists
think anyway. What if it’s simply time to move
on?

I maintain that the illustration I used about
homosexuality could clarify this. People of
course have the right to not want to be gay. But
if society jails gays, marginalises them,
blackmails them and ultimately destroys their
identity, it is not fair to ask people to remain
gay, and true to their ‘inner self’.Of course I
understand their desire to ungay themselves, and
if they use ibo to do that ,be my guest.But the
social function of the ibo in that context is :
society’s soldier that chases the gayness out of
gays. And I do not accept that because of my
weird idea that gays have the right to be gays,
and similar, intense drug users have the right
to pursue that life style.

Like I said during my presentation in New
Orleans, which you missed, ibogaine is not about
elimination of all drugs, but self-determination
for drug users. Part of any effort to reduce
demand for the more addictive drugs, and force
the market to supply more psychedelic “soft”
drugs.

I once asked you to find the source of the
following, apparently taken from Dutch
government fact sheets:

“Out of the total population of 727,000,
Amsterdam has around 5,100 hard-drug users. The
primary thrust of policy is to discourage the
use of drugs, and to combat the trade in drugs.
The authorities also seek to minimize the risks
incurred by drug users and to reduce as far as
possible the nuisance factor for the general
public. In the context of use, Amsterdam’s drug
policy differentiates between hard and soft
drugs, i.e.: cannabis is available, but at
locations where no other illicit substances may
be sold, and this “market separation” is
strictly enforced. Of some 5,100 hard-drug
users, around 2000 are of Dutch origin, with
some 1350 having roots in the former colony of
Surinam, the Netherlands Antilles and Morocco.
Around 1750 users come from other European
countries, mainly Germany and Italy. The total
number of hard-drug users is steadily
decreasing, while their average age is rising,
from 26.8 years in 1981 to 39 years in 1999. In
the same period the total number of drug users
under 22 years of age dropped from from 14.4
percent to 1.6 %.”

At the time you informed me you were not really
interested in helping find the source of this,
because no matter how laudable the decline in
heroin use involved, you do not support market
separation because you do not believe in
differentiating between pot and heroin.
Subsequently, I came to understand that in
Holland, cannabis was until recently consumed as
hashish in tobacco cigarettes, while in America,
everyone smokes pot, which is ubiquitous,
including hard drug addicts. Junkies use pot to
get over their jones. So people view going back
to just smoking pot as returning to a more
innocent, more easily manageable existence.

I have used the word ibo CLAN because of the
special circle in which ibo is developing its
mythical status. For me it is just another
‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and
within a theoretical NIDA governed dominance of
pharmacological understanding of intense drug
use, not a psychological understanding or a
societal one. Its like ( not the same!) as these
compounds the industry now works on to block ALL
‘addictive’ behavior or ‘craving’, to be
injected from birth on.What a money maker ,this
ulimate pharmacological zombyiser.

Come on now. Those vaccines are not going to be
psycho-active like ibogaine. That zombie clan
image is just more horror movie stuff, which
will only impress folk already skeptical, or
opposed to ibogaine. And how can NIDA do
containment on a miracle?

To Sara, giving me ibo, and making me part of
the interesting experience, would not change my
ideas. My subjective reaction to ibo and my
discussion of the social function of ibo are
different levels of observation or analysis.

pc

Sara’s right. You should take it. I may not have
taken the big dose, but at least I’ve been
immersed in the subject for 20 years.

Your take on its social function can have no
insight until you better understand the drug
itself.

PS Dana shouted at me at the top of his voice in
the New Orleans hotel. I did not really mind.
Angry people do that.

But heated words are not insults, nor threats.
And I at least was trying to continue the
conversation, while you were keen to break it
off.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
For me, you have to take into account the effect of the drug upon the body
and the brain. The democracy you are speaking of seems to claim that there
is an absolute independence of will regardless of intoxication, that
someone
who has been using, say, heroin, for 5 years, has complete free will as to
whether he or she takes the next hit. Do you really believe that? “Uhm now,
well, what drug of choice shall I take today? How will I, with my free
will,
choose to alter my consciousness today? Hey, how about heroin?! Ok, so I’ve
made the same choice for the last 5 years, but well that’s my free will.”
Heroin is an analgesic, an industrial strength painkiller. If you’re
struggling in life and your body’s repression system is fighting to hold
down feelings then just one hit of heroin is going to give you such a
feeling of elation that you aren’t easily going to stop using, maybe not
ever, and certainly not until another emotional process comes along with
sufficient strength to shake you out of it, a crisis of some sort, or a
progressive maturation. And, even then, it isn’t going to be easy to stop.
You’re going to need all the help you can get.

The hells we make for ourselves are much more confining than any
government.

I submit that this whole thing you have of making ibogaine into the tool of
some regime to oppress those who seek freedom of choice is simply not
grounded in the reality of today’s world. I mean, no one, possibly bar
myself, is even suggesting this happen. No government agencies seem
remotely
interested in ibogaine, they don’t give a shit about addicts and mostly, in
the case of the US government, basically finance all sorts of suspicious
covert operations disrupting foreign governments with the money they gain
from the drug trade anyway. They’ve got no interest in stopping anyone
taking heroin, beyond paying lip service at voting time.

Just look at Afghanistan. Ibogaine, by
undermining the status quo, offers perhaps the
best chance of overthrowing it.

So I urge you to look again at ibogaine and perhaps see the liberation it
profers, frequently to those who had given up all hope. And maybe even to
take a dose. To say it will not change your ideas, now that sounds pretty
closed. How can you know?

Actually, Nick, since Peter is articulating the
doubts and objections of the “Heroin Solution”
camp as a whole, it is rather unlikely the ideas
will change that fast.

andria3a@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Some comments about this ‘resistance’ from Prof Cohen:

***A) PC is a brilliant man though using his
huge intellect to bad-rap a treatment for
addiction, which clearly has validity, use and
healing for our peers/community and family and
therefore our communities generally, annoys me A
LOT.

B) At the New Mexico Lindesmith Conference,
Marsha Rosenbaum, a woman I happen to admire a
lot otherwise, tried to stop Dana from speaking
and had I not intervened, would prolly have
succeeded. I called her weeks later, to ask why
she did that and she said she had forgotten even
doing it..

C)There clearly is something about Iboga that
upsets those with money and power in the
movement, but I am unclear as to what it
is…whatever it is, they are not articulating
with any convincing to me. I think it’s
personal, not theoretical, political or economic
actually. BUT y’know when people have such
fantastic brains, they can waste time with
arguments that some will find interesting if
unhelpful

D) PC is a star in some circles, so people like
to connect to him: I love his mischievious
childlike nature but I have had many one to ones
with him and I often end up feeling
unappreciated, so i keep a little distance from
him nowadays.

E) I have written a longish e-mail to him,
Nadelmann & Rosenbaum, saying in short, PLEASE
stop being so arrogant…”if addicts are saying
that Iboga improves their lives, nobody
(including y’all) should be throwing theoretcial
spanners in the works.”

So I’m not paranoid. It is not personal,
however. Anyone who kept pushing ibogaine in
Peter’s in-crowd would face the same ostracism
eventually, because they’re bucking the program.
Their group is excluding us, but almost
unconsciously, or automatically. Marsha
Rosenbaum doesn’t remember, you see….

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
Peter Cohen second letter is effectively more coherent than the first one
but I still believe that is position is stiff and incoherent.

The The Declaration of Geneva was adopted by the General Assembly of the
World MedicalAssociation at Genevra in 1948 and
amended bythe 22d World Medical
Assembly at Sydney in 1968 It is a declaration of physicians’ dedication to
the humanitarian goals of medicine, a declaration that was especially
importantin view of the medical crimes which had just been committed in
Nazi
germany.
The Declaration of Geneva reads “AT THE TIME OF BEING ADMITTED AS A MEMBER
OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

a.. I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE myself to consecrate my life to the service of
humanity;
b.. I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their
due;
c.. I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
d.. THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
e.. I WILL RESPECT the secrets which are confided in me, even after the
patient has died;
f.. I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble
traditions of the medical profession;
g.. MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
h.. I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed,
ethnic origin, gender, nationality, politicalaffiliation, race, sexual
orientation, or social standing to intervene between my duty and my
patient;
i.. I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life from its beginning
even under threat and I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the
laws of humanity;
j.. I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honor.”
Now if a dying addict is not sick, of course, you don’t have to help him .
Did I understood it , ?/!
You don’t have to help an alcoholic. What about a diabetic ? An obese ?
What if your country had 27 % of the men are addicted to opium, like after
the two Opium war in China ?
What if a superpower with the help of alcohol is destroying your people and
culture like in the “American Genocide” Europe versus Americas.? What if
goverments try to push addiction to their citizens?
To many questions for a busy specialist in addiction trying to reach his
quota of 10 % success rate.
God bless you
Francis
Sorry, nothing personal. Just few questions. Have you ever read ” brave new
world ” ?

With proper follow-up, our success rate is higher than 10%

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

Not in the context of the proponents of heroin
trials trying to influence gay AIDS bureaucrats
via the harm reduction movement. Their ace in
the hole is that there is no alternative to
heroin maintenance. It’s inevitable, so just
implement it. But the ibogaine makes that not
true. So there IS an alternative. And THAT’S a
big problem for Peter Cohen, Morgan, and Drucker.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either. Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone. However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage. As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

His arguments do give that difficulty short shrift.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian
stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and
I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism
rammed down their throats for generations and
it’s great to see them get up and move in the
opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna
stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being
childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any
connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy
argument that makes sense for libertarian
academics and wins adoration from a generation
of individuals that don’t want to look at their
drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising
my democratic right to use, struggling against
the Oppression of the State that wants to
control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In
fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter!

I actually have elicited this reaction. It’s not
as bad as it once was, because people have more
respect for ibogaine the longer it’s around. And
if they’re junkies, some day they might need it.

Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics
the action of an opiate. The drug will push down
feelings, it represses the influence of the
body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The
belief does the same, it’s the mental version of
an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You
Are, and that person is not a junkie, that
person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe
one in one million but no more! It is not
natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I
don’t care if people have been using opium or
other drugs of repression for aeons, that
doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards
holism is natural, the movement towards
mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take.
Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the
teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at
as better ways then other ways but each and
everyone of us has to follow a way in this
physical body,

So let’s just except that for what it is. and if
some of you have come across ibogaine that’s
cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness ” of
ibogaine cause

I donno. I just saw Ben DeLoenen’s film. It could make a believer out of
you.

It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way
, if you are supposed to live a sober life that
will happen to you no matter what, the awakening
will happen when it is suppose to happen with or
without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path
or way you have to follow/or not follow , and
not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a
way that you can see that you have a path but up
to your understanding/or not understanding of
the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you
sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in
control of any body’s state of consciousness.
Consciousness is a individual growing process
and not a forced Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and
became free of it think that it is a way that
everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,

But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that
way, and for sure that you get your act together
when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed
out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our
lives, if your life is better being clean then
so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any
change is in the hand of the higher self, the
connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

freedomroot@gmail.com wrote:
Peter said he thought even partaking of the Ibogaine Interesting
Experience wouldn’t alter his subjective position that anchors his
thinking on the matter.

I’m not sure that assumption will/would hold up in practice. It is
perhaps, how did the sandbagger put it?, a “mindy” approach to the
mystical.

And, for a counter-example, all of the social scientists who went and
“looked” at the hippie or commune or psychedelic cultural revolution
or whatever you wanna call it, were changed by the experiential
dimension of the participant-observation.

It would, I cerebrally offer, be likely to change something.

love from ny, rachel, ibo-wife

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy
driving such cures as the same as the philosophy
driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand
that for you is it is not clear at all.

But gay behavior stretches over a spectrum from
committed monogamy to binge sex with 6 guys a
night on levitra and crystal meth. No one on
this list is against using drugs, or for the
government prohibition. We just don’t want to be
ADDICTED, because it’s time-consuming,
inconvenient, and expensive.

I am trying to work with the theoretical
problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring
and that is also why I approach all this in a
theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the
concept of addiction played, and to what types
of social practice this has lead, it becomes
necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of
addiction and find out how exactly it was
constructed in the first place, by whom and on
what evidence. What behaviors were created into
‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions,
available at the time, inspired this? Thats what
I do.

As a matter of fact, the standard dopamine model
of 10 – 15 years ago has been rendered obsolete
by new findings–partially by ibogaine research
itself. Dopamine turns out not to be reward, but
craving. The mice without the mGLUR5 pathway,
remember?

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not
create even more confusion because no example is
really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill
of Rights was written in the America of the 18th
century by people who owned hundreds of slaves.
For them it was not clear as it is for us, that
there is a contradiction in their thinking. How
can you try to define a state system that would
ensure freedom for its civil population while
enslaving millions?

The answer is that there was never consensus on
slavery, and that contradiction lead to a civil
war.

These slave owners were of course part of their
times in which black people from Africa were not
seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did
not define human rights for these beings, they
were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would
support the version of human rights that
excluded them, I would have told them that, in
my view, they were seeing themselves thru the
eyes of their masters. making any form of what I
see as emancipation impossible.

To the contrary, each group that has since
attained its freedom did so by insisting that
those rights included them.

When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human
right’ these people used I can understand why
they did not include black Africans. And I could
fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of
democracy and its history in the USA, where a
blind horse can see that the USA has never had
even a remote diluted version of democracy and
now is further away from it even.

But we have a plan for dealing with that, which
I outlined at the end of my last post. I do not
believe your plan to end prohibition is
realistic. You would set up a kind of Weimar
situation where the Nazis would simply take over
again, really pissed, in about 10 years.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not
recognise this concept, one has a serious
conflict with the psychiatric class and their
notions that exist all around. If there is no
such thing as a pathology called addiction, why
would any one have any claim or desire to
‘curing’ it? Do you now see why I use the
example of homosexuality?

This would be news to purveyors of the
conventional wisdom that addicts are incurable,
and will always be in the system, either as a
social service client, or as a homeless junkie
sustaining the police state via petty crime that
converts middleclass surplus capital into
liquidity to prop up the banking system.

The social existence of the concept of addiction
legitimises a vast discriminatory system not
unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain
‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good
reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the
name of a deep social prejudice, will force you
to accept this cure”.

William Burroughs said that if you wish to alter
or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial
relation, you alter or remove the bottom number.
Take away addiction, the system collapses.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that
philosophy, an identification with the system
that severely discriminates against them, forces
them into miles deep of social misery and
marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about
the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I
do. I speak to the people that here in this
country are on the receiving end of a gram of
heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the
security of heroin each day slowly and
profoundly changes their lives and their
possibilities, altho the social prejudice
against them is not changed much.But because
they improve so much, both physicall and
spiritually, they are able to move freely into
social space they had not entered for a long
time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical
supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to
go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But
try to understand where I want to go.

I do not understand how we could be identifying
with the system, since the impulse to seek out
ibogaine is much more akin to rejecting the
supervision of methadone and going to the
blackmarket.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was
a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in
her heroin habit did not hurt her at all. The
drug war destroyed her, forcing her to leave her
ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.

I’m not going to apologize for the bunch of
little Nazis running the system, and I don’t
have to. We did this to free our own people. You
keep thinking that all drugs are equal, that
there are no entheogens, nothing more salvific
than good old smack.

This is exactly what I say all the time. The
drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users.
Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost
without limit in both quatity and time, if
proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so
non toxic it is hard to find anything better.
For those who like or need opiates, it is a
fabulous substance with in general less problems
than the average marriage.

This is where you become utopian. We have to
wait for ibogaine until you get legal heroin.
The tawdry reality is methadone, and methadone
up-regulates HIV production and trashes the
liver of anyone on AIDS meds. Ibogaine, on the
other hand, seems dramatically to improve Hep-C
status, and Glick’s synthetic 18 MC is a
potential treatment for HIV.

So once again, I do not have any personal
problems with any of you. Or with your liking
for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo
has become what it is that I try to combat, in a
rather radical way,thats true. But I consider
the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval
backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as
so terrible, that only a radical rethink can
open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my
accusations towards the system that ruins lives
of opiate users and forces them into this
imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days
Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(=
users of wrong drugs )

There you go again. Ibogaine is imaginary; the
effect is all mind control by mindvox.

The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive
or develop for themselves is a brutal and
terrible thing that has no other ground than
prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem
accepting the core validity of people’s claims
who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will
take a break or diminish or stop altogether when
they are not forced, if time has come.Or they
won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

You want to do something about the Drug War?
Organize or participate in some protest. Right
now we have 140 cities on 6 continents marching
on May 7th. I hope you will join us in
Amsterdam. When we hit enough cities with big
enough protests, the system will collapse, like
in the Ukraine. Then we must be prepared to
seize power ruthlessly and accord our enemies
unlawful combatant status. Bush has renounced
the protections of the Geneva Convention.as far
as all drugwar bureaucrats and law enforcement
personal are concerned.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see
what I see, but at least-for me- it is a
worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn
because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to
‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these
things from a purely theoretical position, as if
no real and very serious subjects are involved,
more than a ‘social construction’ that can be
dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

You say we can’t have ibogaine until we reach
utopia. Okay–at least our utopia is more
imaginative than your utopia.

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com wrote:
Well, while I tend to agree with you in most
ways Peter, I myself do know from experience
that under today’s system of prohibition, it is
a very hard road to toe while strung out (call
it what you will- addicted, habitual user,
self-absorbed, whatever), dodging prohibition’s
enforcers while trying to scrape enough money
together each and every day just to feel “not
sick,” and life really can be extremely
difficult to live like that- and yet as
difficult and outright hellish as it can get,
many of us still have trouble stopping. Again, I
fully agree with you that we should be allowed
to live and take any drug we so desire,
including opiates and everything else really,
and shouldn’t have to worry about stopping, but
we do unfortunately. With this in mind, I am
totally behind ibogaine, in that it sure was a
nifty, amazing, beautiful way to completely cut
my opiate use to miniscule levels (without my
stupid pain issues, I would not have continued
taking opiates actually).
This is why people might have a desire to have a
way to “cure” the situation when people find
themselves really prefering not to use drugs
rather than go to jail, lose their home, etc,
etc, and yet find themselves unable to find the
“will power” (which I’m not entirely convinced
is what’s needed anyway, having gone through
this stupid situation again and again my own
damned self) or whatever it is to quit taking
the drugs.

You know, you and Nick would do the whole list a
service by concentrating of getting Peter to
justify himself, instead of throwing brick-bats
at each other. We are so marginal compared to
the Ethan Nadelmans that letting go of this
focus was a big mistake.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Sara, I think you mean free will coming from an
addicts point of view when stopping the
addiction. For me, I used opiates most of my
life to make me feel better in some way or
other. Pain, depression, anger, love….., etc.,
made me feel uncomfortable. All I knew was when
I was opiated, I felt “better.” For a while. I
fell in love with the euphoria of ALL opiates.
Well, after years of eating, snorting, smoking,
shooting dope I became so tore down from conning
DR’s, being a middle man in dope deals,
generally spending all my cash, and putting all
my effort into keeping my jones at bay, that I
just didn’t want to be addicted anymore. My
choice. I have things that I want to accomplish
that I just couldn’t seem to get done addicted.
God knows that I gave it enough time to find out
if opiates were fucking me up or not. I love the
feeling of opiates, I just don’t want to have to
be a slave to the grind anymore. I have to admit
that the reaction that I got from my family as I
nodded out at the table in front of my nephews
and my Mom had something to do with it. I never
could find that fine line between being half
sick or nodding out. I never had enough dope. If
I’d have had 5 kilo’s of heroin, I would have
been wondering where to get more. I just
couldn’t take it any more. All I knew was I had
to find a way that actually worked at keeping me
from being so sick when I tried to stop. I tried
everything that came down the road to no avail
until I found Ibogaine. Somehow Ibogaine has
interrupted my addiction enough to let me think
for myself instead of thinking about my
addiction all the time. I’m loving my state of
mind now, besides I’m sure there will be plenty
of dope out there if I change my mind about it.
I really don’t think I will this time. Thanx for
asking Sara. Peace and love to you and your
family. Randy

Well said. There has to be more to life than the
rat-race. Heroin is just variant of rat race.
Ibogaine is something else.

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the
“bougeois”.

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs or
alcohol.
1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts referring to the social problems of
drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a
dead
body.

In China there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol.
Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can go back in
history.
God bless
Francis ( ex drunk 🙂 )

Societies are going to make some kind of efforts
to regulate substances. I think that we can
justifiably require them to replace alcohol and
cigarettes with cannabis.

Dana/cnw

P.S: This digest was prepared for the Global Marijuana March.

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Things of possible interest.
Date: February 22, 2005 at 7:57:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It was so good to put faces to names- especially with Martee, as it turned out I’ve met Martee already but hadn’t put the name to a face for some reason while reading her posts here.
Martee, you and everyone rocked my weekend. I was very sorry I couldn’t bring myself to get up to midtown yesterday (and felt kinda weird, as I know many traveled many more miles than I had to go to reach COSM), but that’s how pain drives my life sometimes.
Anyway, again, it was very nice to put names to faces and touch flesh and share a smoke and all the other things that may have taken place this weekend.
;-))
You all give me hope, as I know that with this sort of enthusiasm and sheer chutzpa, we might very well win this stinkin’ war in the end- it’s going to take a while, and I’ve always thought the war winnable, but it’s nice to get reconfirmation of those hopes and desires. Thank you all for being you and doing what you are doing, whether clean, dirty, using or not, you all are the best of humanity in my mind, and I love you.
(Yeah, I know, sticky as hell, but I mean it.)

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: “ibo” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:05 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Things of possible interest.

My brother who has been meditating for 40 years or so sent this to me. I thought it may be of interest to some as there is a scheduled event today.
For beginners and others he(brother) also offers a website to get started.
http://www.shambhudance.com
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: “Sigmund Finman” <sfinman@pulsenet.com>
To: “Martee” <mafinman@optonline.net>; Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:11 PM
Subject: Things of possible interest.

I’ve worked with this woman a couple of times during the last year. She’s the genuine item and I can unequivocally say that I’ve benefited immensely from her workshops and consultations.

Sigm.

—– Original Message —– From: “Mystress Angelique Serpent” <Mystress@fire-serpent.com>
To: <Kundalist@kundalini-gateway.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:58 PM
Subject: [Messenger] Meetings and Chat workshops Schedule.

———————————————————————

Last year I started offering Chat classes and workshops in my chatroom. Feedback and attendance at the chats was excellent, so I will be continuing as an ongoing series.

$50.usd donation requested and appreciated, but not required for attendance. (Those who donate make it worth my time, and those who come for free round out the numbers so we have a good size class. )
Donations: http://kundalini-teacher.com/donations.html

Chatroom: http://fire-serpent.org/chat/phpMyChat.php3
Register a username and password to get in, and wait in the main room. I will create a special room for the event and invite you to join.

Tues Feb 22, 6pm  PST.  Chat Workshop: A Trip to the Void.
The Void is classically defined in Western and Eastern Mysticism as “The infinite nothingness from which all things spring.”  It is a higher vibration of nonduality, a place of emptiness, yet consciousness… reverence and power.
Attainment gives specific spiritual gifts that manifest as a subtle but definite change in physical perceptions.  Nothing will ever be truly dark to you again… We will travel to The Void together, but we will each be alone when we get there… such is the nature of non-duality… you are always alone in The Void. No time, no space, no”other”.  If you astral travel to some place and it has critters.. it is not the Void.

Mon Feb 28, 6pm  PST.  Discernment, and the Heart Voice.

Some Fire Serpent Tantra students have reported having some difficulty with lesson # 13, Opening The Heart Chakra. I have decided to host a chat on the topic, and on the related subject of discernment. The body’s built in truth detector and navigation system. Participants will get heart chakra and entity clearing, to clear the way so the “still small voice within” may speak. The inner Guru.
Non FST members may attend, I suggest you read these pages first:
http://www.fire-serpent.com/1grnd.html
http://kundalini-teacher.com/guidance/heart.html
http://kundalini-teacher.com/guidance/discern.html

Tues March 4.  6pm  PST.  Chat Workshop: Karma Clearing 101.
Learning to surrender your karma and emotional junk is empowering. It makes the Kundalini process smoother, and it is really easy once you get the hang of it. We will explore several methods of surrender: including active surrender and passive surrender.
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Messenger mailing list
Messenger@kundalini-teacher.com
http://kundalini-teacher.com/mailman/listinfo/messenger_kundalini-teacher.com

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From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 5:02:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, your summarizing of my views is quite
right.Dana is not able or willing to read my
stuff,nor understand it, let alone summarizing it.
About the physical side of intense and frequent
drug use, of course there is a biological
component.
But I do not see its relevance.
Thomas Szasz once wrote that the physical aspects
of an erection do not explain falling in love
with a particular woman, or men visiting
prostitutes. There is a lot of biology involved
in sexuality, but what types of sex are
criminalised , what types of bonding society
accepts or not, are totally different matters.
Of course people develop tolerance, or a longing
to repeat the most wanted effects of drugs(
untill they no longer count) but what does this
have to do with societies activity of prohibiting
some drug use behaviours?
I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.
pc

At 11:47 -0500 22-02-2005, Preston Peet wrote:
Dana wrote about Peter Cohen’s theories I take it:

Blasphemous for anyone who insists that
addiction isn’t really neurochemical, but a
matter of social construction– that society
constructs the user as addict. Since
tolerance/withdrawal/craving don’t really
exist, and are not deemed to vary from one
substance to another, Ibogaine can’t really be
doing anything special, so the effect must be
from mind-control by ibogaine@mindvox. Not only
that, since ibogaine is more dangerous than
heroin (in proper medical doses) if you chose
to exaggerate its dangerousness, this
particular cult is offering poison koolaid.<

Could someone please point me out a quote or
comment by Peter Cohen, and also forward this
note to him as I can’t find his email address in
my box for some reason, that says this? Is this
really what Cohen has been saying? If not, what
is he really saying about “addiction” in a
nutshell- does it really have a physical aspect
in his opinion, or is he really saying it’s
merely a “social construct” and that there isn’t
really anything to “addiction” in a physical
sense at all? I haven’t seen anything like this
out of him, what I’ve seen is him saying there
needs to be more focus, in his opinion, on doing
away with the illegality of narcotics and the
criminalizing of those who use narcotics to
self-medicate or simply have fun, that it’s the
criminalizing that’s causing so many if not most
of the problems associated with drugs. He seems
to me to be saying that in his opinion, focusing
on “getting people off drugs” is copping out to
the prohibitionist viewpoint, that it puts the
users into a catagory which can then be
ostrasized and attacked and locked up and
basically treated like “niggers.” If I’m getting
this wrong, please correct me, by including some
quotes of Peter Cohen’s that say one thing or
another about his opinions on addiction and it’s
“reality.”
Thanks. Again, please someone forward this to
Peter Cohen himself. Thanks kindly.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to
Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology
and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:13 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
That’s not true Dana, now your fibbing. I was at
the conference and you and Peter were screaming
at each other in the hallway so loud it was
louder than the back of the room which was the
only place left to stand.

I don’t think Mr. Clear cares what you all did
as long as you weren’t the ones who set the
hotel on fire, since he gave Patrick the opening
plenary to speak to 1200 people and talk about
the ibogaine panel but you are not telling the
truth.

Not to refute anything else in your message but
you and Peter were yelling and you were making
threats.

Heated words is not the same as yelling insults.
And Peter, even though he says I was angry,
absolves me of any threats. What would I
threaten him with? Threaten to eviscerate his
argument? Hold him up to ridicule on the list?
Threaten that no one with any direct experience
with ibogaine would take him seriously?

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
Being a chronic pothead is no healthier then
being a heroin addict and yes you can say pot
has all kinds of health benefits and so too does
heroin. Harm reduction objects to your belief
that all of us need to be cured and get healthy
like people smoking pot all day. Give it a rest.

The crowd represented by P. Cohen has argued the
action of cannabis and opiates in the brain are
really the same; but the dose-response curve is
totally different: every morning you do pot, you
don’t have to keep escalating the dose. The
cannabidiol in cannabis is a mild glutamate
antagonist–much weaker than ibo but it stops
build-up of tolerance.

I think ibogaine is a amazing thing but here’s
news for you, people using drugs are no sicker
then
you Dana, who is another person who uses drugs
all the time. What’s the message in that?

It’s stretching the point to equate vegetable
matter with injectable white powders, but you
missed the point of my post, which has to do
with a system of regulation of legalized drugs.
Putting in a coffee shop system (albeit one
where people are discouraged from mixing tobacco
and cannabis) is aimed mainly at replacing
alcohol and tobacco, which kill 150,000 and
450,000 people a year in the U.S. from accidents
and cancer respectively, with something that
kills no one.

I’ve never heard Dr. Cohen attack the use of any
drug or mandate that anyone has to take
anything. Dana Beal spent the whole 90’s doing
exactly that and suggesting forced marijuana
maintenance after ibogaine. Which are exact
quotes of what you used to say, you’ve given
that speech at Hash Bash dana.

Nothing forced about it. For some people it works.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I
smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of
herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me
the chair or nothin’. They might come over and
drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but
I’m willin’ to take that risk.

and

I’m on the marijuana maintenance plan. I am
jokin’ ya know. I don’t see herb as a problem
tho. Can you say Harm Reduction? Randy

Obviously for a marijuana-friendly crowd I’m
going to emphasize the pot-friendly aspect of
ibogaine. BTW, 4 people long-connected with the
management of the Hash Bash were just treated,
successfully, for their various opiate, etc.
addictions with Ibogaine. I don’t think they’re
going to stop toking up.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Nah, I don’t want to pay for any plane fares,
Dana. It’s just fun to give you shit. I just
can’t help myself. Those darn relapsing
junkies… sorry that it always goes that way.

Wasn’t asking you to pay for anything. It’s just
that I have to be relatively straight to put on
this forum, i.e: some people expect me to
reimburse them for their fares when they get
here, for instance. Can’t have people telling
them: “He’s off doing ibogaine today, you’ll
have to wait.”

What, the man who knows iboga to be the holy
Eucharist, the man who wrote the book, the man
who spread the word of ibogaine (according to
you) can’t hustle some up? In all these years
there has never been an opportunity? Strange. I
really can’t think of a better place than
surrounded by the art of Alex Grey. Unless you
have tidied up your house a bit, it’s better
there, no? Though your cats could be good
company.

Of course I’ve had it at times. It’s just that
I’ve always taken the position that you need a
legitimate medical reason to do it, which I now
have. Same as medical marijuana: you can smoke
all you want, but don’t claim it’s medical if
it’s not. #9 would be a fine place to do ibo, in
the slow season. Which is the reason I wanted to
do it in November. (At least Mark could have
helped with that mortgage). Between now and May
7 I’m busy as can be.

Another question that’s been burning a hole in
my head: How did Jesus get his hands on iboga?
How did he get it in the wine? The Romans had
trade routes to Gabon? Iboga grew in the Holy
land? Jesus could fly faster than a speeding
bullet? It’s just that you say it’s “Implicit.”
Curious, that’s all.

You know in my book I said it was peganum
harmala, which is abundant in Palestine, and
figured in the initiation rite for the Persian
Emperor, the King of Kings. Since the book was
published I’ve become aware of evidence that
iboga may have played a similar role in Egypt,
where friezes on walls of tombs, etc. show the
Pharaoh consorting with pygmies–symbols of
iboga due to their 20 thousand year association
with it throughout Africa. They’re about one per
cent of the population in Rwanda and Burundi,
and Iboga looks to be much more widespread than
Gabon, occurring throughout the Congo basin and
up into the Rift valley–just up the Nile from
Egypt, so to speak.

And since it’s a rootbark, it travels rather
well. A natural tradegood. If the Pharaohs had
cocaine and nicotine, why not Iboga? So I’ve
come to the conclusion that ibo could have been
substituted for ephedra in the particular soma
mixture prepared for the Grail. It would
certainly be more neuroprotective, since it’s
been patented by Olney for stroke and ischemia
(ischemia is a kind of stroke that killed the
victims of crucifixion). And it would have
incorporated the legitimacy of the Pharaonic
equivalent of harmala and of the Pharaohs
themselves into the mantle of the King of Kings.

Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus
wasn’t just faster than a speeding bullet, but
had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with
the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say
that whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew,
Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was in
Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to
Palestine.

The Romans? Well, if they knew about it, the
trick wouldn’t have worked, would it?

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
I noticed that remark about ibogaine being the
same as methadone or any other treatment and the
“cult” comment. My first thought was that
someone who did Ibogaine and CHOSE to remain
sober from everything got his ear and turned him
off, possibly. For someone trying to promote his
stance on all drugs it probably sounded like
blasphemy!

Blasphemous for anyone who insists that
addiction isn’t really neurochemical, but a
matter of social construction– that society
constructs the user as addict. Since
tolerance/withdrawal/craving don’t really exist,
and are not deemed to vary from one substance to
another, Ibogaine can’t really be doing anything
special, so the effect must be from mind-control
by ibogaine@mindvox. Not only that, since
ibogaine is more dangerous than heroin (in
proper medical doses) if you chose to exaggerate
its dangerousness, this particular cult is
offering poison koolaid.

If he is at the conference and would like to
have a short chat with someone who was on
methedone and heroin and cocaine for over 20
years and tried to stop hundereds of times and
only had success with ibogaine, I would be
willing. I also at this moment in time am
choosing to remain sober of everything but quite
possibly for different reasons than others.

It wouldn’t do any good, because Peter is not
particularly interested in talking to ibo-nauts.
Far from making threats, I was trying to
continue a conversation with him; but it was my
impression that he had stated his argument, and
was not particularly interested in any facts or
people that contradict it. Facts, as I told him
at the time, are stubborn things.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Sure, Dr. Cohen is a blathering fool for saying
iboga is the same as methadone, but his comments
on legalization are helpful. Why not have a
combination of harm-reduction,
de-criminalization and more and better treatment
options?

Sounds like my position.

Help from non-addicts as well as addicts? Fine,
if it is a disease, don’t arrest me and make me
pray to god to get better. Options and choice
are lovely things. Sure, we like iboga better
than methadone; I have friends who were really
helped by methadone.

But in New Orleans there was Joyce Woods from
NAMA, kind of smirking when Peter was giving his
rap. She was the one back in ’91 who got me in
trouble with John Morgan by sending him the memo
that Howard and Sisko wrote, which I was trying
to get her to get them to change before it was
released on the ACT UP floor, because it seemed
to put their comment on methadone in his mouth.
I’d just left the only copy with her aide, Tom
Ward (one of the squatters then on a jihad to
take over the annual pot parade, which WE had
started 25 years earlier) who urged her to send
it to Morgan before I had a chance to call her
back. “Putting words in Morgan’s mouth” got me
blackballed in NORML and the DPF for a decade.
And all it amounted to was careless writing
Howard and Bob would have changed if she’d
called them, instead of Morgan.

But the whole DPF crowd were just looking for an
excuse, because they really didn’t like ibo to
begin with. Tom Ward went on to become a
crackhead, and after 9/11, a Bush supporter.

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
Being an ‘addiction specialist’, yet having no prior
firsthand experience with chemical dependency is kinda
like trying to write a paper about the sensation of
skydiving without ever having jumped- it’s gonna be
dry, detached and only partially-informed, and
strongly influenced by personal convictions and biases
rather than first-hand knowledge and experience.

Not exactly an addiction specialist. That’s
Peele. More like a specialist in the sociology
of addiction and prohibition.

Even some of Dr. Cohen’s work/views have merit; I just
find some of his ideas a little angering, especially
seeing as though Ibogaine has helped so many people,
myself included. Almost 4 months of clean time behind
me- the longest in four years. Why did Cohen find it
necessary to compare Ibogaine with the ‘Nazi’s cure
for homosexuality'(god, that’s f*cking horrible.)?
That just seems like an under-the-belt type of shot.

Well, because the comparison has been out there
for a while, and it’s the most alienating thing
the ibo opponents (proponents of heroin trials
who feel threatened by another live option) can
tell the people who determine AIDS policy in
this country. The object is to marginalize, to
keep us out of the legalization program.

As an ‘addictions specialist’, he is pretty quick to
dismiss the neurochemical side of dependence. I’m not
saying it’s the entire explanation for addiction, but
it certainly plays a role.

The point is to blur the distinction between use
(all of us would like to be able to use) and the
build-up of tolerance/withdrawal (not being
really able to enjoy using any longer).

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
A cult….To be or not to be
Are you a good cult or a bad cult?
Do we have to be a cult? How about a club with a
secret handshake? No that won’t work…to many
rules. I know, how about a list where pretty
much the only thing most people have in common
is a curiosity(interest) in ibogaine or are pre
or post and looking for info and a place where
they can check out some issues they have or
thoughts or get practical info. No one smacks
your hand with a ruler when you go off topic.
People come and go with no regular contact at
all.  No rules. It actually sounds like the
anticult.

When something like Ibogaine can’t be
marginalized by cold-shouldering the original
proponents as nut-jobs, when it puts down roots
and starts growing on its own, “cult” is the
next label you go to, I guess. But as I told
David Guard from DRCnet, when he remarked that
we both knew “leading personalities of the
legalization movement” had all decided a
psychedelic treatment for addiction had no
chance of being approved, our time and resources
are too valuable to waste on Lindesmith or the
Drug Policy Alliance, since we’re on a mission
for ibogaine. Don’t expect us to contribute
money, come to your conferences, or pay any
attention to you.

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same
league as these weird addiction doctors that
need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group
of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF
YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of
cure was to inhale a mixture of some
gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine
how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about
homosexuality!)

Actually, given the recent findings on Ibogaine
and binge behavior, it wouldn’t instill
heterosexuality, but rather stop you from
binging on speed and cialis and fucking 20 guys
in one night without a condom. Ironically,
that’s what many of the same people who voted to
discontinue Ibo development in ACT UP ten years
ago are looking for now. In the meantime,
however, the binge behavior in question created
super-AIDS.

The Nazi’s indeed had a cure for homosexuals;
mostly they gassed them to death in
extermination camps ( many tens of thousands of
them) together with jews and gypsies. That is
why I made my remark on the 1948 book, as I did

pc

So now I’m not just a DEA agent, I’m advocating the ovens!

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
I have never accpeted the old theory about
addiction as disease, nor much else about the
concept of addiction. I consider the concept of
addiction as an outgrowth ( in the 18th century)
of the then already used concepts of
‘possession, and being’bewitched’. Concepts that
refer to the snatching of the soul, or the will,
by an evil alien force. These concepts reflect
our incapacity to understand particular
behaviour as very ‘human’ and therefore they are
‘extra human’, alien. Drugs are an alien force (
like the devil , or a witch), and in the alcohol
litterature from the mid 18th century the model
for alcohol as a soul snatcher is created. Later
this model was generalised to other drugs. All
these soul snatchers ( witches, drugs alcohol
included), have been prohibited in the USA at
some time or another since the mid 17th century.

In your New Orleans talk, you were much more
explicit in linking this attitude set to
Jesuitical exorcism of demonic or Satanic
possession. I think that you omit the factors
that differentiate the attitudes of secular
Europeans from Protestant Americans. You know
this history, but for people on the list, it is
important to understand that after the reign of
Charlemagne, the Low Countries and Burgundy were
left under one kingdom. They became incorporated
into what became known as the Holy Roman Empire,
which included elector princes from there,
Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and
northern Italy. The Austrian Habsburg family
provided the Holy Roman Emperor and Spain,
although not technically part of the HRE, was
Austria’s partner through royal intermarriage in
the Habsburg Empire. Emperor Charles V, although
nominally Austrian, was a grandson of Ferdinand
and Isabella of Spain. He was responsible for
the transfer of power over the Low Countries to
Spanish Prince Philip in 1555.

This was terrible news to those Netherlanders
who dared convert to Reformation faiths—which
were especially catching on in the north. Spain
had a policy of exporting its most terrible
Inquisitions to lands that became subject to it.
This meant genocide for many Dutch, and things
became particularly bloody when in 1567 Spain
sent Fernando Alvarez de Toledo, Duke of Alva,
with an army of 10,000. He was know as the “Iron
Duke” and his “Blood Council” was responsible
for at least 20,000 executions, including
Protestant leader Counts Egmont and Hoorn.
Bodies would be hung in public squares, at
gateways into cities, and even over public
fountains as a form of gruesome intimidation
(which no doubt helped fuel epidemics.)

Genocide was being carried out by Spanish,
Belgian, and Dutch Catholics, but most Dutch
Catholics stopped helping the Spanish when
Toledo demanded a 10% sales tax for the Spanish
crown. Protestant exiles and Catholic deserters
formed a privateering fleet that defeated the
Spanish in the north, with English, Hanseatic,
and Danish financial support. Toledo retired in
1573 and was replaced by Luís de Zúñiga y
Requesens, whose troops mutinied that year.
Independence for the United Provinces of the
Netherlands was won by the sword and cannon, but
it would take 75 more years of struggle >for
Spain to recognize it. This 18-year Holocaust of
Protestants was a foretaste of what awaited
Germany and the Czech regions 45 years later in
the Thirty Years War.

Where you err is in failing to understand that
America was largely settled by Protestants who
were trying to get away from Popes and Emperors.
It wasn’t until the Irish potato famine that
significant numbers of Catholics settled
here–but under conditions of enforced
tolerance, where they were just another
religion. In fact, when Willie Nelson showed an
early version of Jack Herer’s book with this
Dutch history (from Georg Behr’s original hemp
book) to Ann Richards, she asked why they were
bashing Catholics, and they took it out of the
next edition.

Therefore, Americans do not see religion, or
salvation, as a bad thing, but as a basic human
right, that belongs to every individual. And in
fact, prohibition in the U.S. didn’t get started
until the 20th Century.

Modern neurological theory that says addiction
is brain disease is a small permutation of the
original dogma, that alien forces can deregulate
(sicken) our inner self, our core self.
Neurology tries to understand now where this
happens, and it says: in the brain. And
neurologists make theory about this and create
images ( brain scans they call them) to
illustrate their ideas. In a nutshell they say
that drugs will incapacitate the brain’s centers
of ‘good’ decision making and then they locate
the cells where this happens.( They, of course,
define what ‘good’ decision making is, not I,
the head of which they made the scan)

The power of half-lies is that they are
half-truths. Brainscans only indicate where the
activity is taking place. A better way to
understand it is that every chemical we put into
the body sets off its own particular cascade of
effects. You don’t get narcotic effects from
stimulants, or psychedelic effects from
narcotics. All drugs are not equivalent, nor are
all drugs equally popular with druggies. Heroin
will never have the mass following of cannabis,
no matter how many experts on both side of the
legalization debate say that their action in the
brain is really the same.

If addiction is a way of learned adaptation, we
should no longer use the word addiction, but ‘ a
life style in which the intense and sometimes
frequent use of drugs is an adaptive tool”.

Aside from the question of build-up of
tolerance, which no user really wants because
they don’t want to spend more money to get the
same result, the longterm learning which results
in cues in the environment triggering intense
cravings simply may not be very “intelligent.”
Mice bio-engineered to knock out the mGLUR5
receptor could not be trained to self-inject
cocaine. All other mice self-inject in
preference to food and water until they die. But
not these mice. Their dopamine was spiking,
their serotonin was spiking–they were getting
plenty of reward. But without the glutamate to
hardwire in the self-injection, they soon lost
interest and drifted back to their food and
water.

For regular mice, their learned adaptation was
fatal. What ibogaine seems to do is scrub this
particular glutamate pathway, without
interfering in interest in real rewards like
food, water, shelter, etc.

Sometimes tools become obsolete, and the
explanation of why so many people leave
dysfunctional adaptations is exactly that: loss
of usefulness.

But some tools may also carry heavy stigma
.Religeons were forbidden, sexual behaviours
chosen by some were forbidden, types( patterns)
of drug use are forbidden because they all
conflict with general ideals about human
existence. This is a sort of legitimization of
prohibiting these behaviours.

If a user takes ibogaine because of family
pressures, etc., and doesn’t really want to
quit, let me assure you that they are perfectly
capable of going back to drugs. It happens all
the time. That’s why we only claim a certain
success rate in getting people clean with
ibogaine. After ibogaine, you can really FEEL
your drugs. But beware of overdosing on your
regular dose following a session.

I agree fully with Dana that methadone is not
only a chemical compound, but much more an
instrument of discipline in a world that
prohibits the self chosen use of opiates in
spite of the fact that some people like them,
and some even need them to survive. If I choose
to use opiates it is not okay, but if my doctor
makes that choice for me, it is. We prohibit not
so much the opiate, but the intention and
symbolical context of some types of use. The
doctor can give me methadone to help me live
with my type of adapatation, but not the type of
opiate I like better.

Methadone can help people, but only ( or mostly)
at the conditions of the doctor.

And here we reach the core of what I would like
to clarify: the doctor stands for society’s
choice to prohibit me the self chosen use of
opiates. He wants me to be either abstinent, or
use his opaites in ways he prescribes.If I fail,
hopla. to jail ,or at least no more assistence.

Overcoming use and reaching abstinence is
society’s goal with me if I use opiates.
Overcoming ‘addiction’ by means of ‘treatment’
is what is supposed to happen. The ibo people
say: use ibo to overcome addiction.The
whitecoats say: use my compounds or life rules
to overcome.

But Ibogaine’s effect was discovered by a drug
user, and promoted for addicts by drug users.
AND the U.S. government apparently is trying to
extend its prohibition of ibogaine worldwide. By
shunning it and downplaying its significance
because of your institutional commitment to
schemes of opiate maintenance, the legalization
camp is complicit in this prohibition. Which
leads to this big split between the academics
and policy wonks on the one hand, and the addict
advocates of ibogaine.

My mistake is that I approach these things in a
too theoretical fashion. I reason: the desire to
become abstinent is a solid by product of our
social ways of prohibiting opiates and other
drugs, and the idea of an ideal human being that
lurks behind these prohibitions.

But, as some of the ibo people told me, it may
not be a by product of social force alone; it
may be a genuine desire ,never mind the way this
desire developed in me.

Okay. That is true.

If I approach the ibo people with this Okay,
could they approach me with more understanding
of my problems with the self chosen use of ibo?
Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social
context in which it has created its usefulness:
prohibition. I see ibo as ‘just one of these
treatments’ in a very symbolical sense.I am not
talking about the pleasure of taking ibo, or its
high level of interestingness, I am not refering
to its subjective functionality, but to its
social symbolism.

What if ibogaine is just a much more interesting
experience than doing coke or dope for the
umpteenth time? Why be stuck in a rut? We don’t
pay much attention to what the prohibitionists
think anyway. What if it’s simply time to move
on?

I maintain that the illustration I used about
homosexuality could clarify this. People of
course have the right to not want to be gay. But
if society jails gays, marginalises them,
blackmails them and ultimately destroys their
identity, it is not fair to ask people to remain
gay, and true to their ‘inner self’.Of course I
understand their desire to ungay themselves, and
if they use ibo to do that ,be my guest.But the
social function of the ibo in that context is :
society’s soldier that chases the gayness out of
gays. And I do not accept that because of my
weird idea that gays have the right to be gays,
and similar, intense drug users have the right
to pursue that life style.

Like I said during my presentation in New
Orleans, which you missed, ibogaine is not about
elimination of all drugs, but self-determination
for drug users. Part of any effort to reduce
demand for the more addictive drugs, and force
the market to supply more psychedelic “soft”
drugs.

I once asked you to find the source of the
following, apparently taken from Dutch
government fact sheets:

“Out of the total population of 727,000,
Amsterdam has around 5,100 hard-drug users. The
primary thrust of policy is to discourage the
use of drugs, and to combat the trade in drugs.
The authorities also seek to minimize the risks
incurred by drug users and to reduce as far as
possible the nuisance factor for the general
public. In the context of use, Amsterdam’s drug
policy differentiates between hard and soft
drugs, i.e.: cannabis is available, but at
locations where no other illicit substances may
be sold, and this “market separation” is
strictly enforced. Of some 5,100 hard-drug
users, around 2000 are of Dutch origin, with
some 1350 having roots in the former colony of
Surinam, the Netherlands Antilles and Morocco.
Around 1750 users come from other European
countries, mainly Germany and Italy. The total
number of hard-drug users is steadily
decreasing, while their average age is rising,
from 26.8 years in 1981 to 39 years in 1999. In
the same period the total number of drug users
under 22 years of age dropped from from 14.4
percent to 1.6 %.”

At the time you informed me you were not really
interested in helping find the source of this,
because no matter how laudable the decline in
heroin use involved, you do not support market
separation because you do not believe in
differentiating between pot and heroin.
Subsequently, I came to understand that in
Holland, cannabis was until recently consumed as
hashish in tobacco cigarettes, while in America,
everyone smokes pot, which is ubiquitous,
including hard drug addicts. Junkies use pot to
get over their jones. So people view going back
to just smoking pot as returning to a more
innocent, more easily manageable existence.

I have used the word ibo CLAN because of the
special circle in which ibo is developing its
mythical status. For me it is just another
‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and
within a theoretical NIDA governed dominance of
pharmacological understanding of intense drug
use, not a psychological understanding or a
societal one. Its like ( not the same!) as these
compounds the industry now works on to block ALL
‘addictive’ behavior or ‘craving’, to be
injected from birth on.What a money maker ,this
ulimate pharmacological zombyiser.

Come on now. Those vaccines are not going to be
psycho-active like ibogaine. That zombie clan
image is just more horror movie stuff, which
will only impress folk already skeptical, or
opposed to ibogaine. And how can NIDA do
containment on a miracle?

To Sara, giving me ibo, and making me part of
the interesting experience, would not change my
ideas. My subjective reaction to ibo and my
discussion of the social function of ibo are
different levels of observation or analysis.

pc

Sara’s right. You should take it. I may not have
taken the big dose, but at least I’ve been
immersed in the subject for 20 years.

Your take on its social function can have no
insight until you better understand the drug
itself.

PS Dana shouted at me at the top of his voice in
the New Orleans hotel. I did not really mind.
Angry people do that.

But heated words are not insults, nor threats.
And I at least was trying to continue the
conversation, while you were keen to break it
off.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
For me, you have to take into account the effect of the drug upon the body
and the brain. The democracy you are speaking of seems to claim that there
is an absolute independence of will regardless of intoxication, that someone
who has been using, say, heroin, for 5 years, has complete free will as to
whether he or she takes the next hit. Do you really believe that? “Uhm now,
well, what drug of choice shall I take today? How will I, with my free will,
choose to alter my consciousness today? Hey, how about heroin?! Ok, so I’ve
made the same choice for the last 5 years, but well that’s my free will.”
Heroin is an analgesic, an industrial strength painkiller. If you’re
struggling in life and your body’s repression system is fighting to hold
down feelings then just one hit of heroin is going to give you such a
feeling of elation that you aren’t easily going to stop using, maybe not
ever, and certainly not until another emotional process comes along with
sufficient strength to shake you out of it, a crisis of some sort, or a
progressive maturation. And, even then, it isn’t going to be easy to stop.
You’re going to need all the help you can get.

The hells we make for ourselves are much more confining than any government.

I submit that this whole thing you have of making ibogaine into the tool of
some regime to oppress those who seek freedom of choice is simply not
grounded in the reality of today’s world. I mean, no one, possibly bar
myself, is even suggesting this happen. No government agencies seem remotely
interested in ibogaine, they don’t give a shit about addicts and mostly, in
the case of the US government, basically finance all sorts of suspicious
covert operations disrupting foreign governments with the money they gain
from the drug trade anyway. They’ve got no interest in stopping anyone
taking heroin, beyond paying lip service at voting time.

Just look at Afghanistan. Ibogaine, by
undermining the status quo, offers perhaps the
best chance of overthrowing it.

So I urge you to look again at ibogaine and perhaps see the liberation it
profers, frequently to those who had given up all hope. And maybe even to
take a dose. To say it will not change your ideas, now that sounds pretty
closed. How can you know?

Actually, Nick, since Peter is articulating the
doubts and objections of the “Heroin Solution”
camp as a whole, it is rather unlikely the ideas
will change that fast.

andria3a@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Some comments about this ‘resistance’ from Prof Cohen:

***A) PC is a brilliant man though using his
huge intellect to bad-rap a treatment for
addiction, which clearly has validity, use and
healing for our peers/community and family and
therefore our communities generally, annoys me A
LOT.

B) At the New Mexico Lindesmith Conference,
Marsha Rosenbaum, a woman I happen to admire a
lot otherwise, tried to stop Dana from speaking
and had I not intervened, would prolly have
succeeded. I called her weeks later, to ask why
she did that and she said she had forgotten even
doing it..

C)There clearly is something about Iboga that
upsets those with money and power in the
movement, but I am unclear as to what it
is…whatever it is, they are not articulating
with any convincing to me. I think it’s
personal, not theoretical, political or economic
actually. BUT y’know when people have such
fantastic brains, they can waste time with
arguments that some will find interesting if
unhelpful

D) PC is a star in some circles, so people like
to connect to him: I love his mischievious
childlike nature but I have had many one to ones
with him and I often end up feeling
unappreciated, so i keep a little distance from
him nowadays.

E) I have written a longish e-mail to him,
Nadelmann & Rosenbaum, saying in short, PLEASE
stop being so arrogant…”if addicts are saying
that Iboga improves their lives, nobody
(including y’all) should be throwing theoretcial
spanners in the works.”

So I’m not paranoid. It is not personal,
however. Anyone who kept pushing ibogaine in
Peter’s in-crowd would face the same ostracism
eventually, because they’re bucking the program.
Their group is excluding us, but almost
unconsciously, or automatically. Marsha
Rosenbaum doesn’t remember, you see….

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
Peter Cohen second letter is effectively more coherent than the first one
but I still believe that is position is stiff and incoherent.

The The Declaration of Geneva was adopted by the General Assembly of the
World MedicalAssociation at Genevra in 1948 and
amended bythe 22d World Medical
Assembly at Sydney in 1968 It is a declaration of physicians’ dedication to
the humanitarian goals of medicine, a declaration that was especially
importantin view of the medical crimes which had just been committed in Nazi
germany.
The Declaration of Geneva reads “AT THE TIME OF BEING ADMITTED AS A MEMBER
OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

a.. I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE myself to consecrate my life to the service of
humanity;
b.. I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their
due;
c.. I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
d.. THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
e.. I WILL RESPECT the secrets which are confided in me, even after the
patient has died;
f.. I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble
traditions of the medical profession;
g.. MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
h.. I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed,
ethnic origin, gender, nationality, politicalaffiliation, race, sexual
orientation, or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;
i.. I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life from its beginning
even under threat and I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the
laws of humanity;
j.. I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honor.”
Now if a dying addict is not sick, of course, you don’t have to help him .
Did I understood it , ?/!
You don’t have to help an alcoholic. What about a diabetic ? An obese ?
What if your country had 27 % of the men are addicted to opium, like after
the two Opium war in China ?
What if a superpower with the help of alcohol is destroying your people and
culture like in the “American Genocide” Europe versus Americas.? What if
goverments try to push addiction to their citizens?
To many questions for a busy specialist in addiction trying to reach his
quota of 10 % success rate.
God bless you
Francis
Sorry, nothing personal. Just few questions. Have you ever read ” brave new
world ” ?

With proper follow-up, our success rate is higher than 10%

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

Not in the context of the proponents of heroin
trials trying to influence gay AIDS bureaucrats
via the harm reduction movement. Their ace in
the hole is that there is no alternative to
heroin maintenance. It’s inevitable, so just
implement it. But the ibogaine makes that not
true. So there IS an alternative. And THAT’S a
big problem for Peter Cohen, Morgan, and Drucker.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either. Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone. However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage. As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

His arguments do give that difficulty short shrift.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian
stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and
I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism
rammed down their throats for generations and
it’s great to see them get up and move in the
opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna
stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being
childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any
connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy
argument that makes sense for libertarian
academics and wins adoration from a generation
of individuals that don’t want to look at their
drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising
my democratic right to use, struggling against
the Oppression of the State that wants to
control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In
fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter!

I actually have elicited this reaction. It’s not
as bad as it once was, because people have more
respect for ibogaine the longer it’s around. And
if they’re junkies, some day they might need it.

Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics
the action of an opiate. The drug will push down
feelings, it represses the influence of the
body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The
belief does the same, it’s the mental version of
an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You
Are, and that person is not a junkie, that
person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe
one in one million but no more! It is not
natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I
don’t care if people have been using opium or
other drugs of repression for aeons, that
doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards
holism is natural, the movement towards
mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take.
Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the
teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at
as better ways then other ways but each and
everyone of us has to follow a way in this
physical body,

So let’s just except that for what it is. and if
some of you have come across ibogaine that’s
cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness ” of
ibogaine cause

I donno. I just saw Ben DeLoenen’s film. It could make a believer out of you.

It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way
, if you are supposed to live a sober life that
will happen to you no matter what, the awakening
will happen when it is suppose to happen with or
without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path
or way you have to follow/or not follow , and
not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a
way that you can see that you have a path but up
to your understanding/or not understanding of
the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you
sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in
control of any body’s state of consciousness.
Consciousness is a individual growing process
and not a forced Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and
became free of it think that it is a way that
everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,

But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that
way, and for sure that you get your act together
when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed
out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our
lives, if your life is better being clean then
so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any
change is in the hand of the higher self, the
connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

freedomroot@gmail.com wrote:
Peter said he thought even partaking of the Ibogaine Interesting
Experience wouldn’t alter his subjective position that anchors his
thinking on the matter.

I’m not sure that assumption will/would hold up in practice. It is
perhaps, how did the sandbagger put it?, a “mindy” approach to the
mystical.

And, for a counter-example, all of the social scientists who went and
“looked” at the hippie or commune or psychedelic cultural revolution
or whatever you wanna call it, were changed by the experiential
dimension of the participant-observation.

It would, I cerebrally offer, be likely to change something.

love from ny, rachel, ibo-wife

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy
driving such cures as the same as the philosophy
driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand
that for you is it is not clear at all.

But gay behavior stretches over a spectrum from
committed monogamy to binge sex with 6 guys a
night on levitra and crystal meth. No one on
this list is against using drugs, or for the
government prohibition. We just don’t want to be
ADDICTED, because it’s time-consuming,
inconvenient, and expensive.

I am trying to work with the theoretical
problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring
and that is also why I approach all this in a
theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the
concept of addiction played, and to what types
of social practice this has lead, it becomes
necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of
addiction and find out how exactly it was
constructed in the first place, by whom and on
what evidence. What behaviors were created into
‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions,
available at the time, inspired this? Thats what
I do.

As a matter of fact, the standard dopamine model
of 10 – 15 years ago has been rendered obsolete
by new findings–partially by ibogaine research
itself. Dopamine turns out not to be reward, but
craving. The mice without the mGLUR5 pathway,
remember?

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not
create even more confusion because no example is
really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill
of Rights was written in the America of the 18th
century by people who owned hundreds of slaves.
For them it was not clear as it is for us, that
there is a contradiction in their thinking. How
can you try to define a state system that would
ensure freedom for its civil population while
enslaving millions?

The answer is that there was never consensus on
slavery, and that contradiction lead to a civil
war.

These slave owners were of course part of their
times in which black people from Africa were not
seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did
not define human rights for these beings, they
were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would
support the version of human rights that
excluded them, I would have told them that, in
my view, they were seeing themselves thru the
eyes of their masters. making any form of what I
see as emancipation impossible.

To the contrary, each group that has since
attained its freedom did so by insisting that
those rights included them.

When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human
right’ these people used I can understand why
they did not include black Africans. And I could
fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of
democracy and its history in the USA, where a
blind horse can see that the USA has never had
even a remote diluted version of democracy and
now is further away from it even.

But we have a plan for dealing with that, which
I outlined at the end of my last post. I do not
believe your plan to end prohibition is
realistic. You would set up a kind of Weimar
situation where the Nazis would simply take over
again, really pissed, in about 10 years.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not
recognise this concept, one has a serious
conflict with the psychiatric class and their
notions that exist all around. If there is no
such thing as a pathology called addiction, why
would any one have any claim or desire to
‘curing’ it? Do you now see why I use the
example of homosexuality?

This would be news to purveyors of the
conventional wisdom that addicts are incurable,
and will always be in the system, either as a
social service client, or as a homeless junkie
sustaining the police state via petty crime that
converts middleclass surplus capital into
liquidity to prop up the banking system.

The social existence of the concept of addiction
legitimises a vast discriminatory system not
unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain
‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good
reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the
name of a deep social prejudice, will force you
to accept this cure”.

William Burroughs said that if you wish to alter
or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial
relation, you alter or remove the bottom number.
Take away addiction, the system collapses.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that
philosophy, an identification with the system
that severely discriminates against them, forces
them into miles deep of social misery and
marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about
the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I
do. I speak to the people that here in this
country are on the receiving end of a gram of
heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the
security of heroin each day slowly and
profoundly changes their lives and their
possibilities, altho the social prejudice
against them is not changed much.But because
they improve so much, both physicall and
spiritually, they are able to move freely into
social space they had not entered for a long
time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical
supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to
go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But
try to understand where I want to go.

I do not understand how we could be identifying
with the system, since the impulse to seek out
ibogaine is much more akin to rejecting the
supervision of methadone and going to the
blackmarket.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was
a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in
her heroin habit did not hurt her at all. The
drug war destroyed her, forcing her to leave her
ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.

I’m not going to apologize for the bunch of
little Nazis running the system, and I don’t
have to. We did this to free our own people. You
keep thinking that all drugs are equal, that
there are no entheogens, nothing more salvific
than good old smack.

This is exactly what I say all the time. The
drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users.
Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost
without limit in both quatity and time, if
proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so
non toxic it is hard to find anything better.
For those who like or need opiates, it is a
fabulous substance with in general less problems
than the average marriage.

This is where you become utopian. We have to
wait for ibogaine until you get legal heroin.
The tawdry reality is methadone, and methadone
up-regulates HIV production and trashes the
liver of anyone on AIDS meds. Ibogaine, on the
other hand, seems dramatically to improve Hep-C
status, and Glick’s synthetic 18 MC is a
potential treatment for HIV.

So once again, I do not have any personal
problems with any of you. Or with your liking
for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo
has become what it is that I try to combat, in a
rather radical way,thats true. But I consider
the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval
backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as
so terrible, that only a radical rethink can
open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my
accusations towards the system that ruins lives
of opiate users and forces them into this
imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days
Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(=
users of wrong drugs )

There you go again. Ibogaine is imaginary; the
effect is all mind control by mindvox.

The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive
or develop for themselves is a brutal and
terrible thing that has no other ground than
prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem
accepting the core validity of people’s claims
who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will
take a break or diminish or stop altogether when
they are not forced, if time has come.Or they
won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

You want to do something about the Drug War?
Organize or participate in some protest. Right
now we have 140 cities on 6 continents marching
on May 7th. I hope you will join us in
Amsterdam. When we hit enough cities with big
enough protests, the system will collapse, like
in the Ukraine. Then we must be prepared to
seize power ruthlessly and accord our enemies
unlawful combatant status. Bush has renounced
the protections of the Geneva Convention.as far
as all drugwar bureaucrats and law enforcement
personal are concerned.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see
what I see, but at least-for me- it is a
worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn
because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to
‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these
things from a purely theoretical position, as if
no real and very serious subjects are involved,
more than a ‘social construction’ that can be
dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

You say we can’t have ibogaine until we reach
utopia. Okay–at least our utopia is more
imaginative than your utopia.

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com wrote:
Well, while I tend to agree with you in most
ways Peter, I myself do know from experience
that under today’s system of prohibition, it is
a very hard road to toe while strung out (call
it what you will- addicted, habitual user,
self-absorbed, whatever), dodging prohibition’s
enforcers while trying to scrape enough money
together each and every day just to feel “not
sick,” and life really can be extremely
difficult to live like that- and yet as
difficult and outright hellish as it can get,
many of us still have trouble stopping. Again, I
fully agree with you that we should be allowed
to live and take any drug we so desire,
including opiates and everything else really,
and shouldn’t have to worry about stopping, but
we do unfortunately. With this in mind, I am
totally behind ibogaine, in that it sure was a
nifty, amazing, beautiful way to completely cut
my opiate use to miniscule levels (without my
stupid pain issues, I would not have continued
taking opiates actually).
This is why people might have a desire to have a
way to “cure” the situation when people find
themselves really prefering not to use drugs
rather than go to jail, lose their home, etc,
etc, and yet find themselves unable to find the
“will power” (which I’m not entirely convinced
is what’s needed anyway, having gone through
this stupid situation again and again my own
damned self) or whatever it is to quit taking
the drugs.

You know, you and Nick would do the whole list a
service by concentrating of getting Peter to
justify himself, instead of throwing brick-bats
at each other. We are so marginal compared to
the Ethan Nadelmans that letting go of this
focus was a big mistake.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Sara, I think you mean free will coming from an
addicts point of view when stopping the
addiction. For me, I used opiates most of my
life to make me feel better in some way or
other. Pain, depression, anger, love….., etc.,
made me feel uncomfortable. All I knew was when
I was opiated, I felt “better.” For a while. I
fell in love with the euphoria of ALL opiates.
Well, after years of eating, snorting, smoking,
shooting dope I became so tore down from conning
DR’s, being a middle man in dope deals,
generally spending all my cash, and putting all
my effort into keeping my jones at bay, that I
just didn’t want to be addicted anymore. My
choice. I have things that I want to accomplish
that I just couldn’t seem to get done addicted.
God knows that I gave it enough time to find out
if opiates were fucking me up or not. I love the
feeling of opiates, I just don’t want to have to
be a slave to the grind anymore. I have to admit
that the reaction that I got from my family as I
nodded out at the table in front of my nephews
and my Mom had something to do with it. I never
could find that fine line between being half
sick or nodding out. I never had enough dope. If
I’d have had 5 kilo’s of heroin, I would have
been wondering where to get more. I just
couldn’t take it any more. All I knew was I had
to find a way that actually worked at keeping me
from being so sick when I tried to stop. I tried
everything that came down the road to no avail
until I found Ibogaine. Somehow Ibogaine has
interrupted my addiction enough to let me think
for myself instead of thinking about my
addiction all the time. I’m loving my state of
mind now, besides I’m sure there will be plenty
of dope out there if I change my mind about it.
I really don’t think I will this time. Thanx for
asking Sara. Peace and love to you and your
family. Randy

Well said. There has to be more to life than the
rat-race. Heroin is just variant of rat race.
Ibogaine is something else.

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the “bougeois”.

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs or
alcohol.
1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts referring to the social problems of
drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a dead
body.

In China there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can go back in
history.
God bless
Francis ( ex drunk 🙂 )

Societies are going to make some kind of efforts
to regulate substances. I think that we can
justifiably require them to replace alcohol and
cigarettes with cannabis.

Dana/cnw

P.S: This digest was prepared for the Global Marijuana March.

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Origins of eboga – 20,000 years att. Dana
Date: February 22, 2005 at 4:52:57 PM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Dana,

Read this from you:

You know in my book I said it was peganum harmala, which is abundant in
Palestine, and figured in the initiation rite for the Persian Emperor,
the King of Kings. Since the book was published I’ve become aware of
evidence that iboga may have played a similar role in Egypt, where
friezes on walls of tombs, etc. show the Pharaoh consorting with
pygmies–symbols of iboga due to their 20 thousand year association
with it throughout Africa. They’re about one per cent of the population
in Rwanda and Burundi, and Iboga looks to be much more widespread than
Gabon, occurring throughout the Congo basin and up into the Rift
valley–just up the Nile from Egypt, so to speak.

Question: Can you point me to references which elaborate what you are saying here about the Rift valley, 20,000 years etc

Thanks

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 4:45:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko,
When you say Jesus is Lucifer’s twin brother in what sense are you refering to Lucifer: as angel of light or as devil? In other words are you talking Catholic folklore about Satan as devil or are you refering to the more historically correct (?) version of Lucifer as an angel of light where for reasons of translation he became equated with the devil.
Lee

marko@mindvox.com wrote:

Dana,

I wouldn’t agree with you on this (which doesn’t mean that I agree with
the rest of your e-mail 😉

I’ve read a great book, The Great Lie, by Michael Kalopoulos, and he
demistyfies the whole lineage of patriarchs, from Abraham to Moses; and
it seems (according to the author) that the Passover started with some
“magician” tricks, continued with some exagerration, and ended with
mass poisoning of everyone who ate bread made with yeast (Egiptyans, of
course)… very interesting, because Moses forbid all his people to eat
yeast-made bread during that specific time; even more, he explicitely
told them what to eat, and in what form, and what not to eat…

Whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, and David
Copperfield knows even better – so, it were just quite simple tricks…
I think that Iboga was not used in Egypt, but Mandragora surely was!

Another thing, about Jesus: he is Lucifer’s (Satan’s) twin brother
(Malcolm Godwin: Angels, An Endangered Species).

Don’t ask me how or why, I’m just stating what is written ;-))

Marko

On 2/22/2005, “Dana Beal” wrote:

>Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus wasn’t just faster than
>a speeding bullet, but had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with
>the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say that whatever the
>Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was
>in Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to Palestine.

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 22, 2005 at 2:37:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki,

Yes I am and it assists me in an ongoing program of “seek, transform and expand.”

At 6mg approx. I have the optimum amount I can work with personally without bringing on rejection and also allowing me to relax and let the eboga entities be present and work with me from issue to issue.

I have many different areas of personal development ongoing and I work from one to another as the occasion warrents. Its a program of overlapping resolution and expansion of my personal self.

Once you find your own thread, hold onto it and it will lead you home.

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 22.02.2005 um 11:28 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Ekki,
>
> Lucky for you the rootbark came in around 5%. You must have done your
> homework on the dose levels beforehand.
>
> So what are you hoping for with continued use?
>
> Lee
>

i don´t plan another full dose for myself in near future.
maybe small booster doses.
are you still taking small amounts yourself, and why or why not?

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 22, 2005 at 2:32:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Excellent. Thanks.

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/22/05 5:50:47 AM, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< Can you give a little more info on the syringes used and how the ibogaine
was transferred into the syringe? Problem with syringes is that the ibogaine
gets clogged in the pipe outlet. Any such problems and if so how were they
resolved?

Thanks, >>

The ibogaine is getting clogged because the diameter of the hole is smaller
than the diameter of the tube. Obtain a steel nail closer to the diameter of
the tube, warm it over the flame of a stove and then insert it in the hole,
melting the plastic and expanding the size of the hole. That should
significantly resolve the matter of clogging.

Howard

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Things of possible interest.
Date: February 22, 2005 at 1:05:26 PM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My brother who has been meditating for 40 years or so sent this to me.  I thought it may be of interest to some as there is a scheduled event today.
For beginners and others he(brother) also offers a website to get started.
http://www.shambhudance.com
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: “Sigmund Finman” <sfinman@pulsenet.com>
To: “Martee” <mafinman@optonline.net>; Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:11 PM
Subject: Things of possible interest.

I’ve worked with this woman a couple of times during the last year.  She’s the genuine item and I can unequivocally say that I’ve benefited immensely from her workshops and consultations.

Sigm.

—– Original Message —– From: “Mystress Angelique Serpent” <Mystress@fire-serpent.com>
To: <Kundalist@kundalini-gateway.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:58 PM
Subject: [Messenger] Meetings and Chat workshops Schedule.

———————————————————————

Last year I started offering Chat classes and workshops in my chatroom. Feedback and attendance at the chats was excellent, so I will be continuing as an ongoing series.

$50.usd donation requested and appreciated, but not required for attendance. (Those who donate make it worth my time, and those who come for free round out the numbers so we have a good size class. )
Donations: http://kundalini-teacher.com/donations.html

Chatroom: http://fire-serpent.org/chat/phpMyChat.php3
Register a username and password to get in, and wait in the main room. I will create a special room for the event and invite you to join.

Tues Feb 22, 6pm  PST.  Chat Workshop: A Trip to the Void.
The Void is classically defined in Western and Eastern Mysticism as “The infinite nothingness from which all things spring.”  It is a higher vibration of nonduality, a place of emptiness, yet consciousness… reverence and power.
Attainment gives specific spiritual gifts that manifest as a subtle but definite change in physical perceptions.  Nothing will ever be truly dark to you again… We will travel to The Void together, but we will each be alone when we get there… such is the nature of non-duality… you are always alone in The Void. No time, no space, no”other”.  If you astral travel to some place and it has critters.. it is not the Void.

Mon Feb 28, 6pm  PST.  Discernment, and the Heart Voice.

Some Fire Serpent Tantra students have reported having some difficulty with lesson # 13, Opening The Heart Chakra. I have decided to host a chat on the topic, and on the related subject of discernment. The body’s built in truth detector and navigation system. Participants will get heart chakra and entity clearing, to clear the way so the “still small voice within” may speak. The inner Guru.
Non FST members may attend, I suggest you read these pages first:
http://www.fire-serpent.com/1grnd.html
http://kundalini-teacher.com/guidance/heart.html
http://kundalini-teacher.com/guidance/discern.html

Tues March 4.  6pm  PST.  Chat Workshop: Karma Clearing 101.
Learning to surrender your karma and emotional junk is empowering. It makes the Kundalini process smoother, and it is really easy once you get the hang of it. We will explore several methods of surrender: including active surrender and passive surrender.
——————————————————————
_______________________________________________
Messenger mailing list
Messenger@kundalini-teacher.com
http://kundalini-teacher.com/mailman/listinfo/messenger_kundalini-teacher.com

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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 1:04:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OK, I’m ploughing through the omnibus reply.  And I think I’m about
two/thirds through.  So I have to keep going,and digest some… and
probably go re-read some stuff, because I DO get a sense there is a
misrepresentation of the ANALogy Cohen was making.  But I got to this
line, which triggered my real take-home message from the COSM FORUM,

DANA WROTE:
But heated words are not insults, nor threats. And I at least was
trying to continue the conversation, while you were keen to break it
off.

Let’s keep the conversations going.   I wish we had had a peace
meditation together to close down the forum.  I wish we had gotten
there a *little* bit earlier both days.  I wish I wish I wish…
witchy.

coalitonally yours from flushing,
rachel

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone
Date: February 22, 2005 at 12:43:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry Preston,

LOL I know for sure  “Madness is  not englihtment ” LOL
I love you man !
Francis

“I don’t like to write. I don’t care what the fucks happens after I write”

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone

Francis wrote in a thoughtful and kindly fashion:

In fact this is one off the dumbest thing I ever read. What a twisted
sentence !! Samuel Johnson should had said<

To which I reply, thanks for your opinion Francis.
I’ll put it immediately where I think it’s best suited.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone

Hi Preston

“He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.” –
Samuel Johnson

LOL  I don’t think  this statement realy works 🙂
In fact this is one off the dumbest thing I ever read. What a twisted
sentence !! Samuel Johnson should had said

“He who makes a beast of himself  IS TRYING to gets rid of the pain of
being
a man.”
No man can get rid of pain, the only way to end ” the being a man thing

is
to start   ” the being a dead.thing” :-))
Unless you can escape your destiny trought zombification….
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:10 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] dr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone

(there are a LOT of links at this url imbedded within the article, so
feel
free to visit online)

http://www.drugwar.com/pthompson.shtm

Dr. Hunter S. Thompson-
Another Inspiration Gone
A commentary by Preston Peet
Posted at DrugWar.com
Feb. 21, 2005
“I’d hate to advocate drug, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone,
but
they’ve always worked for me.” –
Dr. Hunter Stockton Thompson- born July 18, 1937; died Feb. 20, 2005

When eighteen years old, embodying the life of a bohemian druggie in
the
streets of Paris, I was living in the Hotel de’ Nesle, a cheap hotel
overrun
with hippies, heads and freaks in the center of the city, selling (and
using) lots and lots of LSD and hashish to supplement my meager cash
flow.
A
voracious reader, I would scour the hotel for books in English that
other
travelers may have finished reading or have forgotten when they’d
continued
on their roads. It was like this I found a tattered copy of Fear and
Loathing in Las Vegas by the man who would become my driving
inspiration,
the main, number one source for my desire to pick up a pen and write
and
publish, Dr. Hunter Stockton Thompson.
The first time I picked it up, I wasn’t sure what I’d found or what I
thought of it. So utterly different than anything I’d ever even
imagined
being published, much less my reading it, I was soon enrapt, in
complete
awe
that someone had managed to make a living doing what this man had been
doing. I soon discovered this wasn’t even the first book by Hunter S.
Thompson I’d read, as just the summer before moving to Europe, in 1984,
freshly kicked out of my parents’ home, I’d recovered a cover-less copy
of
Thompson’s first book, 1966’s Hell’s Angels, from the dumpster behind
Charlie’s Books on Main St. in my hometown of Sarasota, where it had
been
dumped as overstock. I didn’t immediately make the connection between
the
two books due to that missing cover but it didn’t take me long to not
only
make that connection but to search out and read every single thing by
Thompson I could get my hands on.

I went from Paris to Spain to live in the tiny mountain village of Las
Navos, outside Barcelona, for the month of August, 1985, carrying
Thompson’s
heavy but brilliant 1979 the 700 page anthology of articles and essays,
Great Shark Hunt with me as my bible, picking it up and reading, then
reading again and re-reading some more, paragraph by paragraph, essay
by
essay. It was on this trip that the bright white light bulb exploded in
my
mind: “If he can not only do this many drugs but get paid to travel and
report on the world’s inner and outer spaces too,” I thought to myself,
“then by god so can I!” I picked up an inexpensive little spiral
notebook
and began scribbling in it non-stop, soon filling it and moving on to
the
next, spending the next few years always carrying a spiral with me
everywhere I went. No matter if I was living easy and employed or
strung
out
homeless on the streets, I was writing.
Born July 18, 1937, in Louisville, Kentucky, Thompson went on to serve
two
years in the US Air Force, learning the basics of journalism while
covering
sports for a service paper at Eglin Air Force base in Florida in the
late
1950s. Once back in civilian life, he first took on a position with the
New
York Herald Tribune covering the Caribbean, then spent two years
traveling
and writing as the South American correspondent for the National
Observer,
where he once described a brief spell spent on an island with
bloodthirsty
bandits and smugglers, a foreshadowing of topics and stories to come.
Moving
to San Francisco in 1963, he began researching and writing his seminal
breakthrough book, Hell’s Angels, a Strange and Terrible Saga. Thompson
then
moved to Rolling Stone magazine in 1970, for which he turned two
articles
into the classic Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (published in 1972),
and
for
which he covered the 1972 Richard Nixon-George McGovern US Presidential
Race, which produced his Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail ’72
(published in 1973), thereby giving birth to Gonzo Journalism. And
inadvertently, without my ever getting the honor and privilege to tell
him
so unfortunately, to my own journalism too.

Years later, a working writer and editor, finally published and still
writing my skinny ass off, writing about those things that matter most
to
me, chronicling my own many drug-fueled misadventures and outraged
rantings
as often as possible in writing, I came across another connection I had
to
Thompson I hadn’t previously known about- serious back pain. Thompson
wrote
in 2003 about how he’d been replacing his spine with titanium, and how
it
was such a relief to be finished with the pain he’d been dealing with
for
so
long. A chronic pain patient myself, I could empathize completely with
what
he was saying, and now find myself wondering if his surgery was not
really
that successful after all, and whether he realized he wasn’t actually
finished with the surgery and never ending pain. It’s exhausting living
in
such unrelenting pain day in, night out, not to mention depressing and
extremely difficult to deal with. One can only take so many drugs until
the
tolerance to the drugs is so high nothing can really break through the
pain.
I wonder about Thompson’s drug tolerance levels, and his resistance to
never
ending pain. His friend and drinking buddy, George Stranahan, a former
owner
of the Woody Creek Tavern, Thompson’s old watering hole, was quoted in
the
Associated Press (Feb. 21, 2005) as saying he wasn’t surprised to hear
about
the suicide, making note of Thompson’s bad year medically, and how he
couldn’t imagine Thompson dying in a hospital bed with “tubes coming
out
of
him.” I guess I never did either really. Pain is a terrible thing and
doesn’t leave much room for negotiation, especially in this opiophobic,
prohibition-crazed world we inhabit today.

I tried contacting Thompson last year (2004) while putting together my
own
first book, Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs, but
couldn’t ever get anyone to pick up the phone at his Colorado home. It
would
have been a real honor to have published anything by him in a book I
put
together, but now it will never be. I can only hope I am one day
portrayed
by two brilliant film stars (Bill Murray in Where the Buffalo Roam and
Johnny Depp in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas) and have a comic
character
based on me (Uncle Duke in Doonesbury), not to mention found a new
school
of
journalism like Gonzo. Thompson was sharp, wicked, irreverent,
brilliant,
mad, self-absorbed, a drunk, a stoner, a head, a punk rocker, a sports
columnist (ESPN’s Hey Rube) a gun and motorcycle loving rebel without
peer
and genuine living legend who will be missed by many of those who love
freedom and the lure of something dangerous, out of bounds and
licentious,
by all who will gladly give the finger to a “treacherous little freak”
(to
quote the good doctor), like George W. Bush and all his ilk.
Thompson was found by his son Juan Thompson on Sunday, Feb. 20, 2005,
dead
of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, apparently committed with a .45
handgun,
in the kitchen of his Owl Farm ranch outside of Aspen, Colorado.

Dr. Thompson, I am sorry I never made your personal acquaintance, but I
want
to make clear that even more than Gary Webb, another hero and
inspiration
of
mine who shot himself to death this year, I will miss you and your
work,
and
more importantly, your play.

“He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a
man.” –
Samuel Johnson
.—–

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 12:14:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, The Garden wrote:

Francis,

I see you’ve got the point 😉

I always liked the Marx brothers, except Karl; we were proving his
theories in Yugoslavia, and it *seems* they are not correct!

Marko

LOL they are actualy four and they are in the srtaight lineage of the
Patriarch

They use use to call them The Marx Brothers :-))
God bless
Francis

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 12:15:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko :

You wrote :

Another thing, about Jesus: he is Lucifer’s (Satan’s) twin brother
(Malcolm Godwin: Angels, An Endangered Species).

LOL they are actualy four and they are in the srtaight lineage of the
Patriarch

They use use to call them The Marx Brothers :-))
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: <marko@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Dana,

I wouldn’t agree with you on this (which doesn’t mean that I agree with
the rest of your e-mail 😉

I’ve read a great book, The Great Lie, by Michael Kalopoulos, and he
demistyfies the whole lineage of patriarchs, from Abraham to Moses; and
it seems (according to the author) that the Passover started with some
“magician” tricks, continued with some exagerration, and ended with
mass poisoning of everyone who ate bread made with yeast (Egiptyans, of
course)… very interesting, because Moses forbid all his people to eat
yeast-made bread during that specific time; even more, he explicitely
told them what to eat, and in what form, and what not to eat…

Whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, and David
Copperfield knows even better – so, it were just quite simple tricks…
I think that Iboga was not used in Egypt, but Mandragora surely was!

Another thing, about Jesus: he is Lucifer’s (Satan’s) twin brother
(Malcolm Godwin: Angels, An Endangered Species).

Don’t ask me how or why, I’m just stating what is written ;-))

Marko

On 2/22/2005, “Dana Beal” <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus wasn’t just faster than
a speeding bullet, but had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with
the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say that whatever the
Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was
in Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to Palestine.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Magical Mystical Ibogaine Forum
Date: February 22, 2005 at 11:58:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Awesome description Rachel. I’m one who did take copious notes, but have to do another column of figures and boringness for HT before I even try to work out anything on the conference- if I do manage to do more than do it in my head.
‘-))
It was great to meet you and Jeff finally, as it was meeting everyone else, who I will not try to name as I would hate to leave anyone out.
Randy, twas cool hanging out with you and making up paranoiac theories about why those cops drove up the wrong way on a one way street, turned around and came into the building, following you and I up the elevator right after you and I had a cigarette/smoke break- that was fun.
;-))
Anyway, have a day all. Missed you all who didn’t make it. And I got a good laugh when someone, I forget who, came into #9 and when meeting me said, “And this is Nick I presume,” to me and Jon, who was sitting next to me on the sofa with a big happy grin on his face. Next time perhaps it’ll actually be Nick.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Eye of the Bhogi” <freedomroot@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:38 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Magical Mystical Ibogaine Forum

So we walk in the first day, and its intense.  The Bwiti auras
converging, as Howard put it early Sunday morning.

The space of the forum lent a whole special VIBE and I wish we had
more cash to kick down towards what was an expensive outlay in rent
for someone’s pocket.  But oh how worthwhile!! Alex Gray’s art is one
thing in little prints in my chiro’s space, or my favorite band’s
latest album cover.  But in COSM (the chapel of sacred mirrors) it is
giant canvases of incredible visionary energy, and that’s the first
thing that hits me when we walk in mid-panel.  The academic in me
wants to listen and be polite and attentive to the speaker.  The
mystic in me wants to prostrate to the Cosmic Christ “chapel” room
Jeff and I sat in, and I’m tripping out on a nuclear Holocaust
Crucifixion while the esteemed minds on the panel are rapping about
“lost sacraments.”   I tear my eyes from the paintings in front of me
to notice that over my right shoulder is the root of a giant tree in a
painting of GAIA, and serpents, and fruits, and all the animals that
move me:  an alligator, swan, lion, tiger, elephant, hawk, owl, etc.
And how did we end up sitting at the foot of this Tree and wondering
about the secrets of life?

Those who spoke, both on panels and in the audience, shared little
bits of the wisdom they hold of the state of the art of ibogaine
treatment, the politics of pharmaceutical development, and the
complexity of bridging diverse constituencies toward conscious action.
I know others took far better notes, or observed different aspects
of the interplay, and will have more thoughtful things to say about
the significance of some things reported.

One thing I found particularly interesting that I didn’t know five or
six months ago when we were anticipating Jeff’s treatment:   Dr.
Kamlet puts methadone patients on a shorter acting opiate before
treatment — say three days on Percocet? — which could be tricky  if
you’re not already in a protected environment, say for those in the
self-help network of providers,  because street dope is not such a
safe route to go.   But interesting to think about in terms of working
with sympathetic healthcare folks at “good” clinics.   Or if you have
health insurance.   Or if you have a friend or advocate who has health
insurance and pharm access and isn’t an addict and can help you on
that level.

Ben de Loenen’s film Rite of Passage is also marvelous — plus
extraordinaire!  I do hope it gets to PBS or something.

And, unsurprisingly, all the people doing this work and spreading the
word are incredible souls.  Such a pleasure to meet you all.   I
wished for name tags to the halos, and maybe break-out groups for
discussion between attendees (rather than lectures).  But hanging out
in the same place as Dana, Howard and Norma, Patrick, Kamlet, Alper,
Tatarsky, Freelander, Romell, Vic, Martee, Randy, Preston, Jamila,
Laura, Andrea, all the cures-not-wars crew, and dozens of others….
gratitude for your Beings.

love from flushing,
rachel

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone
Date: February 22, 2005 at 11:54:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis wrote in a thoughtful and kindly fashion:

In fact this is one off the dumbest thing I ever read. What a twisted
sentence !! Samuel Johnson should had said<

To which I reply, thanks for your opinion Francis.
I’ll put it immediately where I think it’s best suited.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone

Hi Preston

“He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.” –
Samuel Johnson

LOL  I don’t think  this statement realy works 🙂
In fact this is one off the dumbest thing I ever read. What a twisted
sentence !! Samuel Johnson should had said

“He who makes a beast of himself  IS TRYING to gets rid of the pain of being
a man.”
No man can get rid of pain, the only way to end ” the being a man thing ” is
to start   ” the being a dead.thing” :-))
Unless you can escape your destiny trought zombification….
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:10 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] dr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone

(there are a LOT of links at this url imbedded within the article, so feel
free to visit online)

http://www.drugwar.com/pthompson.shtm

Dr. Hunter S. Thompson-
Another Inspiration Gone
A commentary by Preston Peet
Posted at DrugWar.com
Feb. 21, 2005
“I’d hate to advocate drug, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but
they’ve always worked for me.” –
Dr. Hunter Stockton Thompson- born July 18, 1937; died Feb. 20, 2005

When eighteen years old, embodying the life of a bohemian druggie in the
streets of Paris, I was living in the Hotel de’ Nesle, a cheap hotel
overrun
with hippies, heads and freaks in the center of the city, selling (and
using) lots and lots of LSD and hashish to supplement my meager cash flow.
A
voracious reader, I would scour the hotel for books in English that other
travelers may have finished reading or have forgotten when they’d
continued
on their roads. It was like this I found a tattered copy of Fear and
Loathing in Las Vegas by the man who would become my driving inspiration,
the main, number one source for my desire to pick up a pen and write and
publish, Dr. Hunter Stockton Thompson.
The first time I picked it up, I wasn’t sure what I’d found or what I
thought of it. So utterly different than anything I’d ever even imagined
being published, much less my reading it, I was soon enrapt, in complete
awe
that someone had managed to make a living doing what this man had been
doing. I soon discovered this wasn’t even the first book by Hunter S.
Thompson I’d read, as just the summer before moving to Europe, in 1984,
freshly kicked out of my parents’ home, I’d recovered a cover-less copy of
Thompson’s first book, 1966’s Hell’s Angels, from the dumpster behind
Charlie’s Books on Main St. in my hometown of Sarasota, where it had been
dumped as overstock. I didn’t immediately make the connection between the
two books due to that missing cover but it didn’t take me long to not only
make that connection but to search out and read every single thing by
Thompson I could get my hands on.

I went from Paris to Spain to live in the tiny mountain village of Las
Navos, outside Barcelona, for the month of August, 1985, carrying
Thompson’s
heavy but brilliant 1979 the 700 page anthology of articles and essays,
Great Shark Hunt with me as my bible, picking it up and reading, then
reading again and re-reading some more, paragraph by paragraph, essay by
essay. It was on this trip that the bright white light bulb exploded in my
mind: “If he can not only do this many drugs but get paid to travel and
report on the world’s inner and outer spaces too,” I thought to myself,
“then by god so can I!” I picked up an inexpensive little spiral notebook
and began scribbling in it non-stop, soon filling it and moving on to the
next, spending the next few years always carrying a spiral with me
everywhere I went. No matter if I was living easy and employed or strung
out
homeless on the streets, I was writing.
Born July 18, 1937, in Louisville, Kentucky, Thompson went on to serve two
years in the US Air Force, learning the basics of journalism while
covering
sports for a service paper at Eglin Air Force base in Florida in the late
1950s. Once back in civilian life, he first took on a position with the
New
York Herald Tribune covering the Caribbean, then spent two years traveling
and writing as the South American correspondent for the National Observer,
where he once described a brief spell spent on an island with bloodthirsty
bandits and smugglers, a foreshadowing of topics and stories to come.
Moving
to San Francisco in 1963, he began researching and writing his seminal
breakthrough book, Hell’s Angels, a Strange and Terrible Saga. Thompson
then
moved to Rolling Stone magazine in 1970, for which he turned two articles
into the classic Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (published in 1972), and
for
which he covered the 1972 Richard Nixon-George McGovern US Presidential
Race, which produced his Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail ’72
(published in 1973), thereby giving birth to Gonzo Journalism. And
inadvertently, without my ever getting the honor and privilege to tell him
so unfortunately, to my own journalism too.

Years later, a working writer and editor, finally published and still
writing my skinny ass off, writing about those things that matter most to
me, chronicling my own many drug-fueled misadventures and outraged
rantings
as often as possible in writing, I came across another connection I had to
Thompson I hadn’t previously known about- serious back pain. Thompson
wrote
in 2003 about how he’d been replacing his spine with titanium, and how it
was such a relief to be finished with the pain he’d been dealing with for
so
long. A chronic pain patient myself, I could empathize completely with
what
he was saying, and now find myself wondering if his surgery was not really
that successful after all, and whether he realized he wasn’t actually
finished with the surgery and never ending pain. It’s exhausting living in
such unrelenting pain day in, night out, not to mention depressing and
extremely difficult to deal with. One can only take so many drugs until
the
tolerance to the drugs is so high nothing can really break through the
pain.
I wonder about Thompson’s drug tolerance levels, and his resistance to
never
ending pain. His friend and drinking buddy, George Stranahan, a former
owner
of the Woody Creek Tavern, Thompson’s old watering hole, was quoted in the
Associated Press (Feb. 21, 2005) as saying he wasn’t surprised to hear
about
the suicide, making note of Thompson’s bad year medically, and how he
couldn’t imagine Thompson dying in a hospital bed with “tubes coming out
of
him.” I guess I never did either really. Pain is a terrible thing and
doesn’t leave much room for negotiation, especially in this opiophobic,
prohibition-crazed world we inhabit today.

I tried contacting Thompson last year (2004) while putting together my own
first book, Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs, but
couldn’t ever get anyone to pick up the phone at his Colorado home. It
would
have been a real honor to have published anything by him in a book I put
together, but now it will never be. I can only hope I am one day portrayed
by two brilliant film stars (Bill Murray in Where the Buffalo Roam and
Johnny Depp in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas) and have a comic character
based on me (Uncle Duke in Doonesbury), not to mention found a new school
of
journalism like Gonzo. Thompson was sharp, wicked, irreverent, brilliant,
mad, self-absorbed, a drunk, a stoner, a head, a punk rocker, a sports
columnist (ESPN’s Hey Rube) a gun and motorcycle loving rebel without peer
and genuine living legend who will be missed by many of those who love
freedom and the lure of something dangerous, out of bounds and licentious,
by all who will gladly give the finger to a “treacherous little freak” (to
quote the good doctor), like George W. Bush and all his ilk.
Thompson was found by his son Juan Thompson on Sunday, Feb. 20, 2005, dead
of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, apparently committed with a .45
handgun,
in the kitchen of his Owl Farm ranch outside of Aspen, Colorado.

Dr. Thompson, I am sorry I never made your personal acquaintance, but I
want
to make clear that even more than Gary Webb, another hero and inspiration
of
mine who shot himself to death this year, I will miss you and your work,
and
more importantly, your play.

“He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.” –
Samuel Johnson
.—–

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 11:47:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana wrote about Peter Cohen’s theories I take it:

Blasphemous for anyone who insists that addiction isn’t really neurochemical, but a matter of social construction– that society constructs the user as addict. Since tolerance/withdrawal/craving don’t really exist, and are not deemed to vary from one substance to another, Ibogaine can’t really be doing anything special, so the effect must be from mind-control by ibogaine@mindvox. Not only that, since ibogaine is more dangerous than heroin (in proper medical doses) if you chose to exaggerate its dangerousness, this particular cult is offering poison koolaid.<

Could someone please point me out a quote or comment by Peter Cohen, and also forward this note to him as I can’t find his email address in my box for some reason, that says this? Is this really what Cohen has been saying? If not, what is he really saying about “addiction” in a nutshell- does it really have a physical aspect in his opinion, or is he really saying it’s merely a “social construct” and that there isn’t really anything to “addiction” in a physical sense at all? I haven’t seen anything like this out of him, what I’ve seen is him saying there needs to be more focus, in his opinion, on doing away with the illegality of narcotics and the criminalizing of those who use narcotics to self-medicate or simply have fun, that it’s the criminalizing that’s causing so many if not most of the problems associated with drugs. He seems to me to be saying that in his opinion, focusing on “getting people off drugs” is copping out to the prohibitionist viewpoint, that it puts the users into a catagory which can then be ostrasized and attacked and locked up and basically treated like “niggers.” If I’m getting this wrong, please correct me, by including some quotes of Peter Cohen’s that say one thing or another about his opinions on addiction and it’s “reality.”
Thanks. Again, please someone forward this to Peter Cohen himself. Thanks kindly.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:13 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
That’s not true Dana, now your fibbing. I was at the conference and you and Peter were screaming at each other in the hallway so loud it was louder than the back of the room which was the only place left to stand.

I don’t think Mr. Clear cares what you all did as long as you weren’t the ones who set the hotel on fire, since he gave Patrick the opening plenary to speak to 1200 people and talk about the ibogaine panel but you are not telling the truth.

Not to refute anything else in your message but you and Peter were yelling and you were making threats.

Heated words is not the same as yelling insults. And Peter, even though he says I was angry, absolves me of any threats. What would I threaten him with? Threaten to eviscerate his argument? Hold him up to ridicule on the list? Threaten that no one with any direct experience with ibogaine would take him seriously?

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
Being a chronic pothead is no healthier then being a heroin addict and yes you can say pot has all kinds of health benefits and so too does heroin. Harm reduction objects to your belief that all of us need to be cured and get healthy like people smoking pot all day. Give it a rest.

The crowd represented by P. Cohen has argued the action of cannabis and opiates in the brain are really the same; but the dose-response curve is totally different: every morning you do pot, you don’t have to keep escalating the dose. The cannabidiol in cannabis is a mild glutamate antagonist–much weaker than ibo but it stops build-up of tolerance.

I think ibogaine is a amazing thing but here’s news for you, people using drugs are no sicker then
you Dana, who is another person who uses drugs all the time. What’s the message in that?

It’s stretching the point to equate vegetable matter with injectable white powders, but you missed the point of my post, which has to do with a system of regulation of legalized drugs. Putting in a coffee shop system (albeit one where people are discouraged from mixing tobacco and cannabis) is aimed mainly at replacing alcohol and tobacco, which kill 150,000 and 450,000 people a year in the U.S. from accidents and cancer respectively, with something that kills no one.

I’ve never heard Dr. Cohen attack the use of any drug or mandate that anyone has to take anything. Dana Beal spent the whole 90’s doing exactly that and suggesting forced marijuana maintenance after ibogaine. Which are exact quotes of what you used to say, you’ve given that speech at Hash Bash dana.

Nothing forced about it. For some people it works.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me the chair or nothin’. They might come over and drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but I’m willin’ to take that risk.

and

I’m on the marijuana maintenance plan. I am jokin’ ya know. I don’t see herb as a problem tho. Can you say Harm Reduction? Randy

Obviously for a marijuana-friendly crowd I’m going to emphasize the pot-friendly aspect of ibogaine. BTW, 4 people long-connected with the management of the Hash Bash were just treated, successfully, for their various opiate, etc. addictions with Ibogaine. I don’t think they’re going to stop toking up.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Nah, I don’t want to pay for any plane fares, Dana. It’s just fun to give you shit. I just can’t help myself. Those darn relapsing junkies… sorry that it always goes that way.

Wasn’t asking you to pay for anything. It’s just that I have to be relatively straight to put on this forum, i.e: some people expect me to reimburse them for their fares when they get here, for instance. Can’t have people telling them: “He’s off doing ibogaine today, you’ll have to wait.”

What, the man who knows iboga to be the holy Eucharist, the man who wrote the book, the man who spread the word of ibogaine (according to you) can’t hustle some up? In all these years there has never been an opportunity? Strange. I really can’t think of a better place than surrounded by the art of Alex Grey. Unless you have tidied up your house a bit, it’s better there, no? Though your cats could be good company.

Of course I’ve had it at times. It’s just that I’ve always taken the position that you need a legitimate medical reason to do it, which I now have. Same as medical marijuana: you can smoke all you want, but don’t claim it’s medical if it’s not. #9 would be a fine place to do ibo, in the slow season. Which is the reason I wanted to do it in November. (At least Mark could have helped with that mortgage). Between now and May 7 I’m busy as can be.

Another question that’s been burning a hole in my head: How did Jesus get his hands on iboga? How did he get it in the wine? The Romans had trade routes to Gabon? Iboga grew in the Holy land? Jesus could fly faster than a speeding bullet? It’s just that you say it’s “Implicit.” Curious, that’s all.

You know in my book I said it was peganum harmala, which is abundant in Palestine, and figured in the initiation rite for the Persian Emperor, the King of Kings. Since the book was published I’ve become aware of evidence that iboga may have played a similar role in Egypt, where friezes on walls of tombs, etc. show the Pharaoh consorting with pygmies–symbols of iboga due to their 20 thousand year association with it throughout Africa. They’re about one per cent of the population in Rwanda and Burundi, and Iboga looks to be much more widespread than Gabon, occurring throughout the Congo basin and up into the Rift valley–just up the Nile from Egypt, so to speak.

And since it’s a rootbark, it travels rather well. A natural tradegood. If the Pharaohs had cocaine and nicotine, why not Iboga? So I’ve come to the conclusion that ibo could have been substituted for ephedra in the particular soma mixture prepared for the Grail. It would certainly be more neuroprotective, since it’s been patented by Olney for stroke and ischemia (ischemia is a kind of stroke that killed the victims of crucifixion). And it would have incorporated the legitimacy of the Pharaonic equivalent of harmala and of the Pharaohs themselves into the mantle of the King of Kings.

Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus wasn’t just faster than a speeding bullet, but had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say that whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was in Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to Palestine.

The Romans? Well, if they knew about it, the trick wouldn’t have worked, would it?

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
I noticed that remark about ibogaine being the same as methadone or any other treatment and the “cult” comment. My first thought was that someone who did Ibogaine and CHOSE to remain sober from everything got his ear and turned him off, possibly. For someone trying to promote his stance on all drugs it probably sounded like blasphemy!

Blasphemous for anyone who insists that addiction isn’t really neurochemical, but a matter of social construction– that society constructs the user as addict. Since tolerance/withdrawal/craving don’t really exist, and are not deemed to vary from one substance to another, Ibogaine can’t really be doing anything special, so the effect must be from mind-control by ibogaine@mindvox. Not only that, since ibogaine is more dangerous than heroin (in proper medical doses) if you chose to exaggerate its dangerousness, this particular cult is offering poison koolaid.

If he is at the conference and would like to have a short chat with someone who was on methedone and heroin and cocaine for over 20 years and tried to stop hundereds of times and only had success with ibogaine, I would be willing. I also at this moment in time am choosing to remain sober of everything but quite possibly for different reasons than others.

It wouldn’t do any good, because Peter is not particularly interested in talking to ibo-nauts. Far from making threats, I was trying to continue a conversation with him; but it was my impression that he had stated his argument, and was not particularly interested in any facts or people that contradict it. Facts, as I told him at the time, are stubborn things.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Sure, Dr. Cohen is a blathering fool for saying iboga is the same as methadone, but his comments on legalization are helpful. Why not have a combination of harm-reduction, de-criminalization and more and better treatment options?

Sounds like my position.

Help from non-addicts as well as addicts? Fine, if it is a disease, don’t arrest me and make me pray to god to get better. Options and choice are lovely things. Sure, we like iboga better than methadone; I have friends who were really helped by methadone.

But in New Orleans there was Joyce Woods from NAMA, kind of smirking when Peter was giving his rap. She was the one back in ’91 who got me in trouble with John Morgan by sending him the memo that Howard and Sisko wrote, which I was trying to get her to get them to change before it was released on the ACT UP floor, because it seemed to put their comment on methadone in his mouth. I’d just left the only copy with her aide, Tom Ward (one of the squatters then on a jihad to take over the annual pot parade, which WE had started 25 years earlier) who urged her to send it to Morgan before I had a chance to call her back. “Putting words in Morgan’s mouth” got me blackballed in NORML and the DPF for a decade. And all it amounted to was careless writing Howard and Bob would have changed if she’d called them, instead of Morgan.

But the whole DPF crowd were just looking for an excuse, because they really didn’t like ibo to begin with. Tom Ward went on to become a crackhead, and after 9/11, a Bush supporter.

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
Being an ‘addiction specialist’, yet having no prior
firsthand experience with chemical dependency is kinda
like trying to write a paper about the sensation of
skydiving without ever having jumped- it’s gonna be
dry, detached and only partially-informed, and
strongly influenced by personal convictions and biases
rather than first-hand knowledge and experience.

Not exactly an addiction specialist. That’s Peele. More like a specialist in the sociology of addiction and prohibition.

Even some of Dr. Cohen’s work/views have merit; I just
find some of his ideas a little angering, especially
seeing as though Ibogaine has helped so many people,
myself included. Almost 4 months of clean time behind
me- the longest in four years. Why did Cohen find it
necessary to compare Ibogaine with the ‘Nazi’s cure
for homosexuality'(god, that’s f*cking horrible.)?
That just seems like an under-the-belt type of shot.

Well, because the comparison has been out there for a while, and it’s the most alienating thing the ibo opponents (proponents of heroin trials who feel threatened by another live option) can tell the people who determine AIDS policy in this country. The object is to marginalize, to keep us out of the legalization program.

As an ‘addictions specialist’, he is pretty quick to
dismiss the neurochemical side of dependence. I’m not
saying it’s the entire explanation for addiction, but
it certainly plays a role.

The point is to blur the distinction between use (all of us would like to be able to use) and the build-up of tolerance/withdrawal (not being really able to enjoy using any longer).

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
A cult….To be or not to be
Are you a good cult or a bad cult?
Do we have to be a cult? How about a club with a secret handshake? No that won’t work…to many rules. I know, how about a list where pretty much the only thing most people have in common is a curiosity(interest) in ibogaine or are pre or post and looking for info and a place where they can check out some issues they have or thoughts or get practical info. No one smacks your hand with a ruler when you go off topic. People come and go with no regular contact at all.  No rules. It actually sounds like the anticult.

When something like Ibogaine can’t be marginalized by cold-shouldering the original proponents as nut-jobs, when it puts down roots and starts growing on its own, “cult” is the next label you go to, I guess. But as I told David Guard from DRCnet, when he remarked that we both knew “leading personalities of the legalization movement” had all decided a psychedelic treatment for addiction had no chance of being approved, our time and resources are too valuable to waste on Lindesmith or the Drug Policy Alliance, since we’re on a mission for ibogaine. Don’t expect us to contribute money, come to your conferences, or pay any attention to you.

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Actually, given the recent findings on Ibogaine and binge behavior, it wouldn’t instill heterosexuality, but rather stop you from binging on speed and cialis and fucking 20 guys in one night without a condom. Ironically, that’s what many of the same people who voted to discontinue Ibo development in ACT UP ten years ago are looking for now. In the meantime, however, the binge behavior in question created super-AIDS.

The Nazi’s indeed had a cure for homosexuals; mostly they gassed them to death in extermination camps ( many tens of thousands of them) together with jews and gypsies. That is why I made my remark on the 1948 book, as I did

pc

So now I’m not just a DEA agent, I’m advocating the ovens!

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
I have never accpeted the old theory about addiction as disease, nor much else about the concept of addiction. I consider the concept of addiction as an outgrowth ( in the 18th century) of the then already used concepts of ‘possession, and being’bewitched’. Concepts that refer to the snatching of the soul, or the will, by an evil alien force. These concepts reflect our incapacity to understand particular behaviour as very ‘human’ and therefore they are ‘extra human’, alien. Drugs are an alien force ( like the devil , or a witch), and in the alcohol litterature from the mid 18th century the model for alcohol as a soul snatcher is created. Later this model was generalised to other drugs. All these soul snatchers ( witches, drugs alcohol included), have been prohibited in the USA at some time or another since the mid 17th century.

In your New Orleans talk, you were much more explicit in linking this attitude set to Jesuitical exorcism of demonic or Satanic possession. I think that you omit the factors that differentiate the attitudes of secular Europeans from Protestant Americans. You know this history, but for people on the list, it is important to understand that after the reign of Charlemagne, the Low Countries and Burgundy were left under one kingdom. They became incorporated into what became known as the Holy Roman Empire, which included elector princes from there, Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and northern Italy. The Austrian Habsburg family provided the Holy Roman Emperor and Spain, although not technically part of the HRE, was Austria’s partner through royal intermarriage in the Habsburg Empire. Emperor Charles V, although nominally Austrian, was a grandson of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain. He was responsible for the transfer of power over the Low Countries to Spanish Prince Philip in 1555.

This was terrible news to those Netherlanders who dared convert to Reformation faiths—which were especially catching on in the north. Spain had a policy of exporting its most terrible Inquisitions to lands that became subject to it. This meant genocide for many Dutch, and things became particularly bloody when in 1567 Spain sent Fernando Alvarez de Toledo, Duke of Alva, with an army of 10,000. He was know as the “Iron Duke” and his “Blood Council” was responsible for at least 20,000 executions, including Protestant leader Counts Egmont and Hoorn. Bodies would be hung in public squares, at gateways into cities, and even over public fountains as a form of gruesome intimidation (which no doubt helped fuel epidemics.)

Genocide was being carried out by Spanish, Belgian, and Dutch Catholics, but most Dutch Catholics stopped helping the Spanish when Toledo demanded a 10% sales tax for the Spanish crown. Protestant exiles and Catholic deserters formed a privateering fleet that defeated the Spanish in the north, with English, Hanseatic, and Danish financial support. Toledo retired in 1573 and was replaced by Luís de Zúñiga y Requesens, whose troops mutinied that year. Independence for the United Provinces of the Netherlands was won by the sword and cannon, but it would take 75 more years of struggle >for Spain to recognize it. This 18-year Holocaust of Protestants was a foretaste of what awaited Germany and the Czech regions 45 years later in the Thirty Years War.

Where you err is in failing to understand that America was largely settled by Protestants who were trying to get away from Popes and Emperors. It wasn’t until the Irish potato famine that significant numbers of Catholics settled here–but under conditions of enforced tolerance, where they were just another religion. In fact, when Willie Nelson showed an early version of Jack Herer’s book with this Dutch history (from Georg Behr’s original hemp book) to Ann Richards, she asked why they were bashing Catholics, and they took it out of the next edition.

Therefore, Americans do not see religion, or salvation, as a bad thing, but as a basic human right, that belongs to every individual. And in fact, prohibition in the U.S. didn’t get started until the 20th Century.

Modern neurological theory that says addiction is brain disease is a small permutation of the original dogma, that alien forces can deregulate (sicken) our inner self, our core self. Neurology tries to understand now where this happens, and it says: in the brain. And neurologists make theory about this and create images ( brain scans they call them) to illustrate their ideas. In a nutshell they say that drugs will incapacitate the brain’s centers of ‘good’ decision making and then they locate the cells where this happens.( They, of course, define what ‘good’ decision making is, not I, the head of which they made the scan)

The power of half-lies is that they are half-truths. Brainscans only indicate where the activity is taking place. A better way to understand it is that every chemical we put into the body sets off its own particular cascade of effects. You don’t get narcotic effects from stimulants, or psychedelic effects from narcotics. All drugs are not equivalent, nor are all drugs equally popular with druggies. Heroin will never have the mass following of cannabis, no matter how many experts on both side of the legalization debate say that their action in the brain is really the same.

If addiction is a way of learned adaptation, we should no longer use the word addiction, but ‘ a life style in which the intense and sometimes frequent use of drugs is an adaptive tool”.

Aside from the question of build-up of tolerance, which no user really wants because they don’t want to spend more money to get the same result, the longterm learning which results in cues in the environment triggering intense cravings simply may not be very “intelligent.” Mice bio-engineered to knock out the mGLUR5 receptor could not be trained to self-inject cocaine. All other mice self-inject in preference to food and water until they die. But not these mice. Their dopamine was spiking, their serotonin was spiking–they were getting plenty of reward. But without the glutamate to hardwire in the self-injection, they soon lost interest and drifted back to their food and water.

For regular mice, their learned adaptation was fatal. What ibogaine seems to do is scrub this particular glutamate pathway, without interfering in interest in real rewards like food, water, shelter, etc.

Sometimes tools become obsolete, and the explanation of why so many people leave dysfunctional adaptations is exactly that: loss of usefulness.

But some tools may also carry heavy stigma .Religeons were forbidden, sexual behaviours chosen by some were forbidden, types( patterns) of drug use are forbidden because they all conflict with general ideals about human existence. This is a sort of legitimization of prohibiting these behaviours.

If a user takes ibogaine because of family pressures, etc., and doesn’t really want to quit, let me assure you that they are perfectly capable of going back to drugs. It happens all the time. That’s why we only claim a certain success rate in getting people clean with ibogaine. After ibogaine, you can really FEEL your drugs. But beware of overdosing on your regular dose following a session.

I agree fully with Dana that methadone is not only a chemical compound, but much more an instrument of discipline in a world that prohibits the self chosen use of opiates in spite of the fact that some people like them, and some even need them to survive. If I choose to use opiates it is not okay, but if my doctor makes that choice for me, it is. We prohibit not so much the opiate, but the intention and symbolical context of some types of use. The doctor can give me methadone to help me live with my type of adapatation, but not the type of opiate I like better.

Methadone can help people, but only ( or mostly) at the conditions of the doctor.

And here we reach the core of what I would like to clarify: the doctor stands for society’s choice to prohibit me the self chosen use of opiates. He wants me to be either abstinent, or use his opaites in ways he prescribes.If I fail, hopla. to jail ,or at least no more assistence.

Overcoming use and reaching abstinence is society’s goal with me if I use opiates. Overcoming ‘addiction’ by means of ‘treatment’ is what is supposed to happen. The ibo people say: use ibo to overcome addiction.The whitecoats say: use my compounds or life rules to overcome.

But Ibogaine’s effect was discovered by a drug user, and promoted for addicts by drug users. AND the U.S. government apparently is trying to extend its prohibition of ibogaine worldwide. By shunning it and downplaying its significance because of your institutional commitment to schemes of opiate maintenance, the legalization camp is complicit in this prohibition. Which leads to this big split between the academics and policy wonks on the one hand, and the addict advocates of ibogaine.

My mistake is that I approach these things in a too theoretical fashion. I reason: the desire to become abstinent is a solid by product of our social ways of prohibiting opiates and other drugs, and the idea of an ideal human being that lurks behind these prohibitions.

But, as some of the ibo people told me, it may not be a by product of social force alone; it may be a genuine desire ,never mind the way this desire developed in me.

Okay. That is true.

If I approach the ibo people with this Okay, could they approach me with more understanding of my problems with the self chosen use of ibo? Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has created its usefulness: prohibition. I see ibo as ‘just one of these treatments’ in a very symbolical sense.I am not talking about the pleasure of taking ibo, or its high level of interestingness, I am not refering to its subjective functionality, but to its social symbolism.

What if ibogaine is just a much more interesting experience than doing coke or dope for the umpteenth time? Why be stuck in a rut? We don’t pay much attention to what the prohibitionists think anyway. What if it’s simply time to move on?

I maintain that the illustration I used about homosexuality could clarify this. People of course have the right to not want to be gay. But if society jails gays, marginalises them, blackmails them and ultimately destroys their identity, it is not fair to ask people to remain gay, and true to their ‘inner self’.Of course I understand their desire to ungay themselves, and if they use ibo to do that ,be my guest.But the social function of the ibo in that context is : society’s soldier that chases the gayness out of gays. And I do not accept that because of my weird idea that gays have the right to be gays, and similar, intense drug users have the right to pursue that life style.

Like I said during my presentation in New Orleans, which you missed, ibogaine is not about elimination of all drugs, but self-determination for drug users. Part of any effort to reduce demand for the more addictive drugs, and force the market to supply more psychedelic “soft” drugs.

I once asked you to find the source of the following, apparently taken from Dutch government fact sheets:

“Out of the total population of 727,000, Amsterdam has around 5,100 hard-drug users. The primary thrust of policy is to discourage the use of drugs, and to combat the trade in drugs. The authorities also seek to minimize the risks incurred by drug users and to reduce as far as possible the nuisance factor for the general public. In the context of use, Amsterdam’s drug policy differentiates between hard and soft drugs, i.e.: cannabis is available, but at locations where no other illicit substances may be sold, and this “market separation” is strictly enforced. Of some 5,100 hard-drug users, around 2000 are of Dutch origin, with some 1350 having roots in the former colony of Surinam, the Netherlands Antilles and Morocco. Around 1750 users come from other European countries, mainly Germany and Italy. The total number of hard-drug users is steadily decreasing, while their average age is rising, from 26.8 years in 1981 to 39 years in 1999. In the same period the total number of drug users under 22 years of age dropped from from 14.4 percent to 1.6 %.”

At the time you informed me you were not really interested in helping find the source of this, because no matter how laudable the decline in heroin use involved, you do not support market separation because you do not believe in differentiating between pot and heroin. Subsequently, I came to understand that in Holland, cannabis was until recently consumed as hashish in tobacco cigarettes, while in America, everyone smokes pot, which is ubiquitous, including hard drug addicts. Junkies use pot to get over their jones. So people view going back to just smoking pot as returning to a more innocent, more easily manageable existence.

I have used the word ibo CLAN because of the special circle in which ibo is developing its mythical status. For me it is just another ‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and within a theoretical NIDA governed dominance of pharmacological understanding of intense drug use, not a psychological understanding or a societal one. Its like ( not the same!) as these compounds the industry now works on to block ALL ‘addictive’ behavior or ‘craving’, to be injected from birth on.What a money maker ,this ulimate pharmacological zombyiser.

Come on now. Those vaccines are not going to be psycho-active like ibogaine. That zombie clan image is just more horror movie stuff, which will only impress folk already skeptical, or opposed to ibogaine. And how can NIDA do containment on a miracle?

To Sara, giving me ibo, and making me part of the interesting experience, would not change my ideas. My subjective reaction to ibo and my discussion of the social function of ibo are different levels of observation or analysis.

pc

Sara’s right. You should take it. I may not have taken the big dose, but at least I’ve been immersed in the subject for 20 years.

Your take on its social function can have no insight until you better understand the drug itself.

PS Dana shouted at me at the top of his voice in the New Orleans hotel. I did not really mind. Angry people do that.

But heated words are not insults, nor threats. And I at least was trying to continue the conversation, while you were keen to break it off.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
For me, you have to take into account the effect of the drug upon the body
and the brain. The democracy you are speaking of seems to claim that there
is an absolute independence of will regardless of intoxication, that someone
who has been using, say, heroin, for 5 years, has complete free will as to
whether he or she takes the next hit. Do you really believe that? “Uhm now,
well, what drug of choice shall I take today? How will I, with my free will,
choose to alter my consciousness today? Hey, how about heroin?! Ok, so I’ve
made the same choice for the last 5 years, but well that’s my free will.”
Heroin is an analgesic, an industrial strength painkiller. If you’re
struggling in life and your body’s repression system is fighting to hold
down feelings then just one hit of heroin is going to give you such a
feeling of elation that you aren’t easily going to stop using, maybe not
ever, and certainly not until another emotional process comes along with
sufficient strength to shake you out of it, a crisis of some sort, or a
progressive maturation. And, even then, it isn’t going to be easy to stop.
You’re going to need all the help you can get.

The hells we make for ourselves are much more confining than any government.

I submit that this whole thing you have of making ibogaine into the tool of
some regime to oppress those who seek freedom of choice is simply not
grounded in the reality of today’s world. I mean, no one, possibly bar
myself, is even suggesting this happen. No government agencies seem remotely
interested in ibogaine, they don’t give a shit about addicts and mostly, in
the case of the US government, basically finance all sorts of suspicious
covert operations disrupting foreign governments with the money they gain
from the drug trade anyway. They’ve got no interest in stopping anyone
taking heroin, beyond paying lip service at voting time.

Just look at Afghanistan. Ibogaine, by undermining the status quo, offers perhaps the best chance of overthrowing it.

So I urge you to look again at ibogaine and perhaps see the liberation it
profers, frequently to those who had given up all hope. And maybe even to
take a dose. To say it will not change your ideas, now that sounds pretty
closed. How can you know?

Actually, Nick, since Peter is articulating the doubts and objections of the “Heroin Solution” camp as a whole, it is rather unlikely the ideas will change that fast.

andria3a@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Some comments about this ‘resistance’ from Prof Cohen:

***A) PC is a brilliant man though using his huge intellect to bad-rap a treatment for addiction, which clearly has validity, use and healing for our peers/community and family and therefore our communities generally, annoys me A LOT.

B) At the New Mexico Lindesmith Conference, Marsha Rosenbaum, a woman I happen to admire a lot otherwise, tried to stop Dana from speaking and had I not intervened, would prolly have succeeded. I called her weeks later, to ask why she did that and she said she had forgotten even doing it..

C)There clearly is something about Iboga that upsets those with money and power in the movement, but I am unclear as to what it is…whatever it is, they are not articulating with any convincing to me. I think it’s personal, not theoretical, political or economic actually. BUT y’know when people have such fantastic brains, they can waste time with arguments that some will find interesting if unhelpful

D) PC is a star in some circles, so people like to connect to him: I love his mischievious childlike nature but I have had many one to ones with him and I often end up feeling unappreciated, so i keep a little distance from him nowadays.

E) I have written a longish e-mail to him, Nadelmann & Rosenbaum, saying in short, PLEASE stop being so arrogant…”if addicts are saying that Iboga improves their lives, nobody (including y’all) should be throwing theoretcial spanners in the works.”

So I’m not paranoid. It is not personal, however. Anyone who kept pushing ibogaine in Peter’s in-crowd would face the same ostracism eventually, because they’re bucking the program. Their group is excluding us, but almost unconsciously, or automatically. Marsha Rosenbaum doesn’t remember, you see….

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
Peter Cohen second letter is effectively more coherent than the first one
but I still believe that is position is stiff and incoherent.

The The Declaration of Geneva was adopted by the General Assembly of the
World MedicalAssociation at Genevra in 1948 and amended bythe 22d World Medical
Assembly at Sydney in 1968 It is a declaration of physicians’ dedication to
the humanitarian goals of medicine, a declaration that was especially
importantin view of the medical crimes which had just been committed in Nazi
germany.
The Declaration of Geneva reads “AT THE TIME OF BEING ADMITTED AS A MEMBER
OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

a.. I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE myself to consecrate my life to the service of
humanity;
b.. I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their
due;
c.. I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
d.. THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
e.. I WILL RESPECT the secrets which are confided in me, even after the
patient has died;
f.. I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble
traditions of the medical profession;
g.. MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
h.. I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed,
ethnic origin, gender, nationality, politicalaffiliation, race, sexual
orientation, or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;
i.. I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life from its beginning
even under threat and I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the
laws of humanity;
j.. I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honor.”
Now if a dying addict is not sick, of course, you don’t have to help him .
Did I understood it , ?/!
You don’t have to help an alcoholic. What about a diabetic ? An obese ?
What if your country had 27 % of the men are addicted to opium, like after
the two Opium war in China ?
What if a superpower with the help of alcohol is destroying your people and
culture like in the “American Genocide” Europe versus Americas.? What if
goverments try to push addiction to their citizens?
To many questions for a busy specialist in addiction trying to reach his
quota of 10 % success rate.
God bless you
Francis
Sorry, nothing personal. Just few questions. Have you ever read ” brave new
world ” ?

With proper follow-up, our success rate is higher than 10%

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

Not in the context of the proponents of heroin trials trying to influence gay AIDS bureaucrats via the harm reduction movement. Their ace in the hole is that there is no alternative to heroin maintenance. It’s inevitable, so just implement it. But the ibogaine makes that not true. So there IS an alternative. And THAT’S a big problem for Peter Cohen, Morgan, and Drucker.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either. Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone. However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage. As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

His arguments do give that difficulty short shrift.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter!

I actually have elicited this reaction. It’s not as bad as it once was, because people have more respect for ibogaine the longer it’s around. And if they’re junkies, some day they might need it.

Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,

So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause

I donno. I just saw Ben DeLoenen’s film. It could make a believer out of you.

It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,

But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

freedomroot@gmail.com wrote:
Peter said he thought even partaking of the Ibogaine Interesting
Experience wouldn’t alter his subjective position that anchors his
thinking on the matter.

I’m not sure that assumption will/would hold up in practice. It is
perhaps, how did the sandbagger put it?, a “mindy” approach to the
mystical.

And, for a counter-example, all of the social scientists who went and
“looked” at the hippie or commune or psychedelic cultural revolution
or whatever you wanna call it, were changed by the experiential
dimension of the participant-observation.

It would, I cerebrally offer, be likely to change something.

love from ny, rachel, ibo-wife

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

But gay behavior stretches over a spectrum from committed monogamy to binge sex with 6 guys a night on levitra and crystal meth. No one on this list is against using drugs, or for the government prohibition. We just don’t want to be ADDICTED, because it’s time-consuming, inconvenient, and expensive.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

As a matter of fact, the standard dopamine model of 10 – 15 years ago has been rendered obsolete by new findings–partially by ibogaine research itself. Dopamine turns out not to be reward, but craving. The mice without the mGLUR5 pathway, remember?

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hundreds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a state system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?

The answer is that there was never consensus on slavery, and that contradiction lead to a civil war.

These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.

To the contrary, each group that has since attained its freedom did so by insisting that those rights included them.

When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

But we have a plan for dealing with that, which I outlined at the end of my last post. I do not believe your plan to end prohibition is realistic. You would set up a kind of Weimar situation where the Nazis would simply take over again, really pissed, in about 10 years.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see why I use the example of homosexuality?

This would be news to purveyors of the conventional wisdom that addicts are incurable, and will always be in the system, either as a social service client, or as a homeless junkie sustaining the police state via petty crime that converts middleclass surplus capital into liquidity to prop up the banking system.

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discriminatory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

William Burroughs said that if you wish to alter or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial relation, you alter or remove the bottom number. Take away addiction, the system collapses.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy, an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

I do not understand how we could be identifying with the system, since the impulse to seek out ibogaine is much more akin to rejecting the supervision of methadone and going to the blackmarket.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all. The drug war destroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.

I’m not going to apologize for the bunch of little Nazis running the system, and I don’t have to. We did this to free our own people. You keep thinking that all drugs are equal, that there are no entheogens, nothing more salvific than good old smack.

This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

This is where you become utopian. We have to wait for ibogaine until you get legal heroin. The tawdry reality is methadone, and methadone up-regulates HIV production and trashes the liver of anyone on AIDS meds. Ibogaine, on the other hand, seems dramatically to improve Hep-C status, and Glick’s synthetic 18 MC is a potential treatment for HIV.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )

There you go again. Ibogaine is imaginary; the effect is all mind control by mindvox.

The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

You want to do something about the Drug War? Organize or participate in some protest. Right now we have 140 cities on 6 continents marching on May 7th. I hope you will join us in Amsterdam. When we hit enough cities with big enough protests, the system will collapse, like in the Ukraine. Then we must be prepared to seize power ruthlessly and accord our enemies unlawful combatant status. Bush has renounced the protections of the Geneva Convention.as far as all drugwar bureaucrats and law enforcement personal are concerned.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

You say we can’t have ibogaine until we reach utopia. Okay–at least our utopia is more imaginative than your utopia.

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com wrote:
Well, while I tend to agree with you in most ways Peter, I myself do know from experience that under today’s system of prohibition, it is a very hard road to toe while strung out (call it what you will- addicted, habitual user, self-absorbed, whatever), dodging prohibition’s enforcers while trying to scrape enough money together each and every day just to feel “not sick,” and life really can be extremely difficult to live like that- and yet as difficult and outright hellish as it can get, many of us still have trouble stopping. Again, I fully agree with you that we should be allowed to live and take any drug we so desire, including opiates and everything else really, and shouldn’t have to worry about stopping, but we do unfortunately. With this in mind, I am totally behind ibogaine, in that it sure was a nifty, amazing, beautiful way to completely cut my opiate use to miniscule levels (without my stupid pain issues, I would not have continued taking opiates actually).
This is why people might have a desire to have a way to “cure” the situation when people find themselves really prefering not to use drugs rather than go to jail, lose their home, etc, etc, and yet find themselves unable to find the “will power” (which I’m not entirely convinced is what’s needed anyway, having gone through this stupid situation again and again my own damned self) or whatever it is to quit taking the drugs.

You know, you and Nick would do the whole list a service by concentrating of getting Peter to justify himself, instead of throwing brick-bats at each other. We are so marginal compared to the Ethan Nadelmans that letting go of this focus was a big mistake.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Sara, I think you mean free will coming from an addicts point of view when stopping the addiction. For me, I used opiates most of my life to make me feel better in some way or other. Pain, depression, anger, love….., etc., made me feel uncomfortable. All I knew was when I was opiated, I felt “better.” For a while. I fell in love with the euphoria of ALL opiates. Well, after years of eating, snorting, smoking, shooting dope I became so tore down from conning DR’s, being a middle man in dope deals, generally spending all my cash, and putting all my effort into keeping my jones at bay, that I just didn’t want to be addicted anymore. My choice. I have things that I want to accomplish that I just couldn’t seem to get done addicted. God knows that I gave it enough time to find out if opiates were fucking me up or not. I love the feeling of opiates, I just don’t want to have to be a slave to the grind anymore. I have to admit that the reaction that I got from my family as I nodded out at the table in front of my nephews and my Mom had something to do with it. I never could find that fine line between being half sick or nodding out. I never had enough dope. If I’d have had 5 kilo’s of heroin, I would have been wondering where to get more. I just couldn’t take it any more. All I knew was I had to find a way that actually worked at keeping me from being so sick when I tried to stop. I tried everything that came down the road to no avail until I found Ibogaine. Somehow Ibogaine has interrupted my addiction enough to let me think for myself instead of thinking about my addiction all the time. I’m loving my state of mind now, besides I’m sure there will be plenty of dope out there if I change my mind about it. I really don’t think I will this time. Thanx for asking Sara. Peace and love to you and your family. Randy

Well said. There has to be more to life than the rat-race. Heroin is just variant of rat race. Ibogaine is something else.

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the “bougeois”.

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs or
alcohol.
1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts referring to the social problems of
drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a dead
body.

In China there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can go back in
history.
God bless
Francis ( ex drunk 🙂 )

Societies are going to make some kind of efforts to regulate substances. I think that we can justifiably require them to replace alcohol and cigarettes with cannabis.

Dana/cnw

P.S: This digest was prepared for the Global Marijuana March.

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTdr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone
Date: February 22, 2005 at 11:43:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston

“He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.” –
Samuel Johnson

LOL  I don’t think  this statement realy works 🙂
In fact this is one off the dumbest thing I ever read. What a twisted
sentence !! Samuel Johnson should had said

“He who makes a beast of himself  IS TRYING to gets rid of the pain of being
a man.”
No man can get rid of pain, the only way to end ” the being a man thing ” is
to start   ” the being a dead.thing” :-))
Unless you can escape your destiny trought zombification….
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:10 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] dr. hunter s. thompson- another inspiration gone

(there are a LOT of links at this url imbedded within the article, so feel
free to visit online)

http://www.drugwar.com/pthompson.shtm

Dr. Hunter S. Thompson-
Another Inspiration Gone
A commentary by Preston Peet
Posted at DrugWar.com
Feb. 21, 2005
“I’d hate to advocate drug, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but
they’ve always worked for me.” –
Dr. Hunter Stockton Thompson- born July 18, 1937; died Feb. 20, 2005

When eighteen years old, embodying the life of a bohemian druggie in the
streets of Paris, I was living in the Hotel de’ Nesle, a cheap hotel
overrun
with hippies, heads and freaks in the center of the city, selling (and
using) lots and lots of LSD and hashish to supplement my meager cash flow.
A
voracious reader, I would scour the hotel for books in English that other
travelers may have finished reading or have forgotten when they’d
continued
on their roads. It was like this I found a tattered copy of Fear and
Loathing in Las Vegas by the man who would become my driving inspiration,
the main, number one source for my desire to pick up a pen and write and
publish, Dr. Hunter Stockton Thompson.
The first time I picked it up, I wasn’t sure what I’d found or what I
thought of it. So utterly different than anything I’d ever even imagined
being published, much less my reading it, I was soon enrapt, in complete
awe
that someone had managed to make a living doing what this man had been
doing. I soon discovered this wasn’t even the first book by Hunter S.
Thompson I’d read, as just the summer before moving to Europe, in 1984,
freshly kicked out of my parents’ home, I’d recovered a cover-less copy of
Thompson’s first book, 1966’s Hell’s Angels, from the dumpster behind
Charlie’s Books on Main St. in my hometown of Sarasota, where it had been
dumped as overstock. I didn’t immediately make the connection between the
two books due to that missing cover but it didn’t take me long to not only
make that connection but to search out and read every single thing by
Thompson I could get my hands on.

I went from Paris to Spain to live in the tiny mountain village of Las
Navos, outside Barcelona, for the month of August, 1985, carrying
Thompson’s
heavy but brilliant 1979 the 700 page anthology of articles and essays,
Great Shark Hunt with me as my bible, picking it up and reading, then
reading again and re-reading some more, paragraph by paragraph, essay by
essay. It was on this trip that the bright white light bulb exploded in my
mind: “If he can not only do this many drugs but get paid to travel and
report on the world’s inner and outer spaces too,” I thought to myself,
“then by god so can I!” I picked up an inexpensive little spiral notebook
and began scribbling in it non-stop, soon filling it and moving on to the
next, spending the next few years always carrying a spiral with me
everywhere I went. No matter if I was living easy and employed or strung
out
homeless on the streets, I was writing.
Born July 18, 1937, in Louisville, Kentucky, Thompson went on to serve two
years in the US Air Force, learning the basics of journalism while
covering
sports for a service paper at Eglin Air Force base in Florida in the late
1950s. Once back in civilian life, he first took on a position with the
New
York Herald Tribune covering the Caribbean, then spent two years traveling
and writing as the South American correspondent for the National Observer,
where he once described a brief spell spent on an island with bloodthirsty
bandits and smugglers, a foreshadowing of topics and stories to come.
Moving
to San Francisco in 1963, he began researching and writing his seminal
breakthrough book, Hell’s Angels, a Strange and Terrible Saga. Thompson
then
moved to Rolling Stone magazine in 1970, for which he turned two articles
into the classic Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (published in 1972), and
for
which he covered the 1972 Richard Nixon-George McGovern US Presidential
Race, which produced his Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail ’72
(published in 1973), thereby giving birth to Gonzo Journalism. And
inadvertently, without my ever getting the honor and privilege to tell him
so unfortunately, to my own journalism too.

Years later, a working writer and editor, finally published and still
writing my skinny ass off, writing about those things that matter most to
me, chronicling my own many drug-fueled misadventures and outraged
rantings
as often as possible in writing, I came across another connection I had to
Thompson I hadn’t previously known about- serious back pain. Thompson
wrote
in 2003 about how he’d been replacing his spine with titanium, and how it
was such a relief to be finished with the pain he’d been dealing with for
so
long. A chronic pain patient myself, I could empathize completely with
what
he was saying, and now find myself wondering if his surgery was not really
that successful after all, and whether he realized he wasn’t actually
finished with the surgery and never ending pain. It’s exhausting living in
such unrelenting pain day in, night out, not to mention depressing and
extremely difficult to deal with. One can only take so many drugs until
the
tolerance to the drugs is so high nothing can really break through the
pain.
I wonder about Thompson’s drug tolerance levels, and his resistance to
never
ending pain. His friend and drinking buddy, George Stranahan, a former
owner
of the Woody Creek Tavern, Thompson’s old watering hole, was quoted in the
Associated Press (Feb. 21, 2005) as saying he wasn’t surprised to hear
about
the suicide, making note of Thompson’s bad year medically, and how he
couldn’t imagine Thompson dying in a hospital bed with “tubes coming out
of
him.” I guess I never did either really. Pain is a terrible thing and
doesn’t leave much room for negotiation, especially in this opiophobic,
prohibition-crazed world we inhabit today.

I tried contacting Thompson last year (2004) while putting together my own
first book, Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs, but
couldn’t ever get anyone to pick up the phone at his Colorado home. It
would
have been a real honor to have published anything by him in a book I put
together, but now it will never be. I can only hope I am one day portrayed
by two brilliant film stars (Bill Murray in Where the Buffalo Roam and
Johnny Depp in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas) and have a comic character
based on me (Uncle Duke in Doonesbury), not to mention found a new school
of
journalism like Gonzo. Thompson was sharp, wicked, irreverent, brilliant,
mad, self-absorbed, a drunk, a stoner, a head, a punk rocker, a sports
columnist (ESPN’s Hey Rube) a gun and motorcycle loving rebel without peer
and genuine living legend who will be missed by many of those who love
freedom and the lure of something dangerous, out of bounds and licentious,
by all who will gladly give the finger to a “treacherous little freak” (to
quote the good doctor), like George W. Bush and all his ilk.
Thompson was found by his son Juan Thompson on Sunday, Feb. 20, 2005, dead
of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, apparently committed with a .45
handgun,
in the kitchen of his Owl Farm ranch outside of Aspen, Colorado.

Dr. Thompson, I am sorry I never made your personal acquaintance, but I
want
to make clear that even more than Gary Webb, another hero and inspiration
of
mine who shot himself to death this year, I will miss you and your work,
and
more importantly, your play.

“He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.” –
Samuel Johnson
.—–

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 11:06:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana,

I wouldn’t agree with you on this (which doesn’t mean that I agree with
the rest of your e-mail 😉

I’ve read a great book, The Great Lie, by Michael Kalopoulos, and he
demistyfies the whole lineage of patriarchs, from Abraham to Moses; and
it seems (according to the author) that the Passover started with some
“magician” tricks, continued with some exagerration, and ended with
mass poisoning of everyone who ate bread made with yeast (Egiptyans, of
course)… very interesting, because Moses forbid all his people to eat
yeast-made bread during that specific time; even more, he explicitely
told them what to eat, and in what form, and what not to eat…

Whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, and David
Copperfield knows even better – so, it were just quite simple tricks…
I think that Iboga was not used in Egypt, but Mandragora surely was!

Another thing, about Jesus: he is Lucifer’s (Satan’s) twin brother
(Malcolm Godwin: Angels, An Endangered Species).

Don’t ask me how or why, I’m just stating what is written ;-))

Marko

On 2/22/2005, “Dana Beal” <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus wasn’t just faster than
a speeding bullet, but had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with
the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say that whatever the
Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was
in Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to Palestine.

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: February 22, 2005 at 9:13:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
That’s not true Dana, now your fibbing. I was at the conference and you and Peter were screaming at each other in the hallway so loud it was louder than the back of the room which was the only place left to stand.

I don’t think Mr. Clear cares what you all did as long as you weren’t the ones who set the hotel on fire, since he gave Patrick  the opening plenary to speak to 1200 people and talk about the ibogaine panel but you are not telling the truth.

Not to refute anything else in your message but you and Peter were yelling and you were making threats.

Heated words is not the same as yelling insults. And Peter, even though he says I was angry, absolves me of any threats. What would I threaten him with? Threaten to eviscerate his argument? Hold him up to ridicule on the list? Threaten that no one with any direct experience with ibogaine would take him seriously?

cherylca@myway.com wrote:
Being a chronic pothead is no healthier then being a heroin addict and yes you can say pot has all kinds of health benefits and so too does heroin. Harm reduction objects to your belief that all of us need to be cured and get healthy like people smoking pot all day. Give it a rest.

The crowd represented by P. Cohen has argued the action of cannabis and opiates in the brain are really the same;  but the dose-response curve is totally different: every morning you do pot, you don’t have to keep escalating the dose. The cannabidiol in cannabis is a mild glutamate antagonist–much weaker than ibo but it stops build-up of tolerance.

I think ibogaine is a amazing thing but here’s news for you, people using drugs are no sicker then
you Dana, who is another person who uses drugs all the time. What’s the message in that?

It’s stretching the point to equate vegetable matter with injectable white powders, but you missed the point of my post, which has to do with a system of regulation of legalized drugs. Putting in a coffee shop system (albeit one where people are discouraged from mixing tobacco and cannabis) is aimed mainly at replacing alcohol and tobacco, which kill 150,000 and 450,000 people a year in the U.S. from accidents and cancer respectively, with something that kills no one.

I’ve never heard Dr. Cohen attack the use of any drug or mandate that anyone has to take anything. Dana Beal spent the whole 90’s doing exactly that and suggesting forced marijuana maintenance after ibogaine. Which are exact quotes of what you used to say, you’ve given that speech at Hash Bash dana.

Nothing forced about it. For some people it works.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me the chair or nothin’. They might come over and drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but I’m willin’ to take that risk.
and
I’m on the marijuana maintenance plan. I am jokin’ ya know. I don’t see herb as a problem tho. Can you say Harm Reduction?   Randy

Obviously for a marijuana-friendly crowd I’m going to emphasize the pot-friendly aspect of ibogaine. BTW, 4 people long-connected with the management of the Hash Bash were just treated, successfully, for their various opiate, etc. addictions with Ibogaine. I don’t think they’re going to stop toking up.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Nah, I don’t want to pay for any plane fares, Dana. It’s just fun to give you shit.  I just can’t help myself. Those darn relapsing junkies… sorry that it always goes that way.

Wasn’t asking you to pay for anything. It’s just that I have to be relatively straight to put on this forum, i.e: some people expect me to reimburse them for their fares when they get here, for instance. Can’t have people telling them: “He’s off doing ibogaine today, you’ll have to wait.”

What, the man who knows iboga to be the holy Eucharist, the man who wrote the book, the man who spread the word of ibogaine (according to you) can’t hustle some up? In all these years there has never been an opportunity? Strange. I really can’t think of a better place than surrounded by the art of Alex Grey. Unless you have tidied up your house a bit, it’s better there, no? Though your cats could be good company.

Of course I’ve had it at times. It’s just that I’ve always taken the position that you need a legitimate medical reason to do it, which I now have. Same as medical marijuana: you can smoke all you want, but don’t claim it’s medical if it’s not. #9 would be a fine place to do ibo, in the slow season. Which is the reason I wanted to do it in November. (At least Mark could have helped with that mortgage). Between now and May 7 I’m busy as can be.

Another question that’s been burning a hole in my head: How did Jesus get his hands on iboga? How did he get it in the wine? The Romans had trade routes to Gabon? Iboga grew in the Holy land? Jesus could fly faster than a speeding bullet? It’s just that you say it’s “Implicit.” Curious, that’s all.

You know in my book I said it was peganum harmala, which is abundant in Palestine, and figured in the initiation rite for the Persian Emperor, the King of Kings. Since the book was published I’ve become aware of evidence that iboga may have played a similar role in Egypt, where friezes on walls of tombs, etc. show the Pharaoh consorting with pygmies–symbols of iboga due to their 20 thousand year association with it throughout Africa. They’re about one per cent of the population in Rwanda and Burundi, and Iboga looks to be much more widespread than Gabon, occurring throughout the Congo basin and up into the Rift valley–just up the Nile from Egypt, so to speak.

And since it’s a rootbark, it travels rather well. A natural tradegood. If the Pharaohs had cocaine and nicotine, why not Iboga? So I’ve come to the conclusion that ibo could have been substituted for ephedra in the particular soma mixture prepared for the Grail. It would certainly be more neuroprotective, since it’s been patented by Olney for stroke and ischemia (ischemia is a kind of stroke that killed the victims of crucifixion). And it would have incorporated the legitimacy of the Pharaonic equivalent of harmala and of the Pharaohs themselves into the mantle of the King of Kings.

Since the alternative explanation is that Jesus wasn’t just faster than a speeding bullet, but had half his genes direct from God, I’d go with the Passover Plot hypothesis. The Rabbis say that whatever the Pharaoh’s magicians knew, Moses knew better, so if the iboga secret was in Egypt, the Jews took it with them back to Palestine.

The Romans? Well, if they knew about it, the trick wouldn’t have worked, would it?

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
I noticed that remark about ibogaine being the same as methadone or any other treatment and the “cult” comment.  My first thought was that someone who did Ibogaine and CHOSE to remain sober from everything got his ear and turned him off, possibly.  For someone trying to promote his stance on all drugs it probably sounded like blasphemy!

Blasphemous for anyone who insists that addiction isn’t really neurochemical, but a matter of social construction– that society constructs the user as addict. Since tolerance/withdrawal/craving don’t really exist, and are not deemed to vary from one substance to another, Ibogaine can’t really be doing anything special, so the effect must be from mind-control by ibogaine@mindvox. Not only that, since ibogaine is more dangerous than heroin (in proper medical doses) if you chose to exaggerate its dangerousness, this particular cult is offering poison koolaid.

If he is at the conference and would like to have a short chat with someone who was on methedone and heroin and cocaine for over 20 years and tried to stop hundereds of times and only had success with ibogaine, I would be willing.  I also at this moment in time am choosing to remain sober of everything but quite possibly for different reasons than others.

It wouldn’t do any good, because Peter is not particularly interested in talking to ibo-nauts. Far from making threats, I was trying to continue a conversation with him; but it was my impression that he had stated his argument, and was not particularly interested in any facts or people that contradict it. Facts, as I told him at the time, are stubborn things.

stevenanker@hotmail.com wrote:
Sure, Dr. Cohen is a blathering fool for saying iboga is the same as methadone, but his comments on legalization are helpful. Why not have a combination of harm-reduction, de-criminalization and more and better treatment options?

Sounds like my position.

Help from non-addicts as well as addicts? Fine, if it is a disease, don’t arrest me and make me pray to god to get better. Options and choice are lovely things. Sure, we like iboga better than methadone; I have friends who were really helped by methadone.

But in New Orleans there was Joyce Woods from NAMA, kind of smirking when Peter was giving his rap. She was the one back in ’91 who got me in trouble with John Morgan by sending him the memo that Howard and Sisko wrote, which I was trying to get her to get them to change before it was released on the ACT UP floor, because it seemed to put their comment on methadone in his mouth. I’d  just left the only copy with her aide, Tom Ward (one of the squatters then on a jihad to take over the annual pot parade, which WE had started 25 years earlier) who urged her to send it to Morgan before I had a chance to call her back. “Putting words in Morgan’s mouth” got me blackballed in NORML and the DPF for a decade. And all it amounted to was  careless writing Howard and Bob would have changed if she’d called them, instead of Morgan.

But the whole DPF crowd were just looking for an excuse, because they really didn’t like ibo to begin with. Tom Ward went on to become a crackhead, and after 9/11, a Bush supporter.

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
Being an ‘addiction specialist’, yet having no prior
firsthand experience with chemical dependency is kinda
like trying to write a paper about the sensation of
skydiving without ever having jumped- it’s gonna be
dry, detached and only partially-informed, and
strongly influenced by personal convictions and biases
rather than first-hand knowledge and experience.

Not exactly an addiction specialist. That’s Peele. More like a specialist in the sociology of addiction and prohibition.

Even some of Dr. Cohen’s work/views have merit; I just
find some of his ideas a little angering, especially
seeing as though Ibogaine has helped so many people,
myself included.  Almost 4 months of clean time behind
me- the longest in four years.  Why did Cohen find it
necessary to compare Ibogaine with the ‘Nazi’s cure
for homosexuality'(god, that’s f*cking horrible.)?
That just seems like an under-the-belt type of shot.

Well, because the comparison has been out there for a while, and it’s the most alienating thing the ibo opponents (proponents of heroin trials who feel threatened by another live option) can tell the people who determine AIDS policy in this country. The object is to marginalize, to keep us out of the legalization program.

As an ‘addictions specialist’, he is pretty quick to
dismiss the neurochemical side of dependence.  I’m not
saying it’s the entire explanation for addiction, but
it certainly plays a role.

The point is to blur the distinction between use (all of us would like to be able to use) and the build-up of tolerance/withdrawal (not being really able to enjoy using any longer).

mafinman@optonline.net wrote:
A cult….To be or not to be
Are you a good cult or a bad cult?
Do we have to be a cult? How about a club with a secret handshake? No that won’t work…to many rules.  I know, how about a list where pretty much the only thing most people have in common is a curiosity(interest) in ibogaine or are pre or post and looking for info and a place where they can check out some issues they have or thoughts or get practical info.  No one smacks your hand with a ruler when you go off topic. People come and go with no regular contact at all.  No rules.  It actually sounds like the anticult.

When something like Ibogaine can’t be marginalized by cold-shouldering the original proponents as nut-jobs, when it puts down roots and starts growing on its own, “cult” is the next label you go to, I guess. But as I told David Guard from DRCnet, when he remarked that we both knew “leading personalities of the legalization movement” had all decided a psychedelic treatment for addiction had no chance of being approved, our time and resources are too valuable to waste on Lindesmith or the Drug Policy Alliance, since we’re on a mission for ibogaine. Don’t expect us to contribute money, come to your conferences, or pay any attention to you.

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Actually, given the recent findings on Ibogaine and binge behavior, it wouldn’t instill heterosexuality, but rather stop you from binging on speed and cialis and fucking 20 guys in one night without a condom. Ironically, that’s what many of the same people who voted to discontinue Ibo development in ACT UP ten years ago are looking for now. In the meantime, however, the binge behavior in question created super-AIDS.

The Nazi’s indeed had a cure for homosexuals; mostly they gassed  them to death in extermination camps ( many tens of thousands of them) together with jews and gypsies. That is why I made my remark on the 1948 book, as I did

pc

So now I’m not just a DEA agent, I’m advocating the ovens!

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
I have never accpeted the old theory about addiction as disease, nor much else about the concept of addiction. I consider the concept of addiction as an outgrowth ( in the 18th century) of the then already used concepts of ‘possession, and being’bewitched’. Concepts that refer to the snatching of the soul, or the will, by an evil alien force. These concepts reflect our incapacity to understand particular behaviour as very ‘human’ and therefore they are ‘extra human’, alien. Drugs are  an alien force ( like the devil , or a witch), and in the alcohol litterature from the mid 18th century the model for alcohol as a soul snatcher is created. Later this model was generalised to other drugs. All these soul snatchers ( witches, drugs alcohol included), have been prohibited in the USA at some time or another since the mid 17th century.

In your New Orleans talk, you were much more explicit in linking this attitude set to Jesuitical exorcism of demonic or Satanic possession. I think that you omit the factors that differentiate the attitudes of secular Europeans from Protestant Americans. You know this history, but for people on the list, it is important to understand that after the reign of Charlemagne, the Low Countries and Burgundy were left under one kingdom.  They became incorporated into what became known as the Holy Roman Empire, which included elector princes from there, Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and northern Italy.  The Austrian Habsburg family provided the Holy Roman Emperor and Spain, although not technically part of the HRE, was Austria’s partner through royal intermarriage in the Habsburg Empire.  Emperor Charles V, although nominally Austrian, was a grandson of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain.  He was responsible for the transfer of power over the Low Countries to Spanish Prince Philip in 1555.

This was terrible news to those Netherlanders who dared convert to Reformation faiths—which were especially catching on in the north.  Spain had a policy of exporting its most terrible Inquisitions to lands that became subject to it.  This meant genocide for many Dutch, and things became particularly bloody when in 1567 Spain sent Fernando Alvarez de Toledo, Duke of Alva, with an army of 10,000.  He was know as the “Iron Duke” and his “Blood Council” was responsible for at least 20,000 executions, including Protestant leader Counts Egmont and Hoorn.  Bodies would be hung in public squares, at gateways into cities, and even over public fountains as a form of gruesome intimidation (which no doubt helped fuel epidemics.)

Genocide was being carried out by Spanish, Belgian, and Dutch Catholics, but most Dutch Catholics stopped helping the Spanish when Toledo demanded a 10% sales tax for the Spanish crown.  Protestant exiles and Catholic deserters formed a privateering fleet that defeated the Spanish in the north, with English, Hanseatic, and Danish financial support.  Toledo retired in 1573 and was replaced by Luís de Zúñiga y Requesens, whose troops mutinied that year.  Independence for the United Provinces of the Netherlands was won by the sword and cannon, but it would take 75 more years of struggle >for Spain to recognize it.  This 18-year Holocaust of Protestants was a foretaste of what awaited Germany and the Czech regions 45 years later in the Thirty Years War.

Where you err is in failing to understand that America was largely settled by Protestants who were trying to get away from Popes and Emperors. It wasn’t until the Irish potato famine that significant numbers of Catholics settled here–but under conditions of enforced tolerance, where they were just another religion. In fact, when Willie Nelson showed an early version of Jack Herer’s book with this Dutch history (from Georg Behr’s original hemp book) to Ann Richards, she asked why they were bashing Catholics, and they took it out of the next edition.

Therefore, Americans do not see religion, or salvation, as a bad thing, but as a basic human right, that belongs to every individual. And in fact, prohibition in the U.S. didn’t get started until the 20th Century.

Modern neurological theory that says addiction is  brain disease is a small permutation of the original dogma, that alien forces  can deregulate (sicken) our inner self, our core self. Neurology tries to understand now where this happens, and it says: in the brain. And neurologists make theory about this and create images ( brain scans they call them) to illustrate their ideas. In a nutshell they say that drugs will incapacitate the brain’s centers of ‘good’ decision making and then they locate the cells where this happens.( They, of course, define what ‘good’ decision making is, not I, the head of which they made the scan)

The power of half-lies is that they are half-truths. Brainscans only indicate where the activity is taking place. A better way to understand it is that every chemical we put into the body sets off its own particular cascade of effects. You don’t get narcotic effects from stimulants, or psychedelic effects from narcotics. All drugs are not equivalent, nor are all drugs equally popular with druggies. Heroin will never have the mass following of cannabis, no matter how many experts on both side of the legalization debate say that their action in the brain is really the same.

If addiction is a way of learned adaptation, we should no longer use the word addiction, but ‘ a life style in which the intense and sometimes frequent use of drugs is an adaptive tool”.

Aside from the question of build-up of tolerance, which no user really wants because they don’t want to spend more money to get the same result, the longterm learning which results in cues in the environment triggering intense cravings simply may not be very “intelligent.” Mice bio-engineered to knock out the mGLUR5 receptor could not be trained to self-inject cocaine. All other mice self-inject in preference to food and water until they die. But not these mice. Their dopamine was spiking, their serotonin was spiking–they were getting plenty of reward. But without the glutamate to hardwire in the self-injection, they soon lost interest and drifted back to their food and water.

For regular mice, their learned adaptation was fatal. What ibogaine seems to do is scrub this particular glutamate pathway, without interfering in interest in real rewards like food, water, shelter, etc.

Sometimes tools become obsolete, and the explanation of why so many people leave dysfunctional adaptations is exactly that: loss of usefulness.

But some tools may also carry heavy stigma .Religeons were forbidden, sexual behaviours chosen by some were forbidden, types( patterns) of drug use are forbidden because they all conflict with general ideals about human existence. This is a sort of legitimization of prohibiting these behaviours.

If a user takes ibogaine because of family pressures, etc., and doesn’t really want to quit, let me assure you that they are perfectly capable of going back to drugs. It happens all the time. That’s why we only claim a certain success rate in getting people clean with ibogaine. After ibogaine, you can really FEEL your drugs. But beware of overdosing on your regular dose following a session.

I agree fully with Dana that methadone is not only a chemical compound, but much more an instrument of discipline in a world that prohibits the self chosen use of opiates in spite of the fact that some people like them, and some even need them to survive. If I choose to use opiates it is not okay, but if my doctor makes that choice for me, it is. We prohibit not so much the opiate, but the intention and symbolical context of some types of use. The doctor can give me methadone to help me live with my type of adapatation, but not the type of opiate I like better.

Methadone can help people, but only ( or mostly) at the conditions of the doctor.

And here we reach the core of what I would like to clarify: the doctor stands for society’s choice to prohibit me the self chosen use of opiates. He wants me to be either abstinent, or use his opaites in ways he prescribes.If I fail, hopla. to jail ,or at least no more assistence.

Overcoming use and reaching abstinence is society’s goal with me if I use opiates. Overcoming ‘addiction’ by means of ‘treatment’ is what is supposed to happen. The ibo people say: use ibo to overcome addiction.The whitecoats say: use my compounds or life rules to overcome.

But Ibogaine’s effect was discovered by a drug user, and promoted for addicts by drug users. AND the U.S. government apparently is trying to extend its prohibition of ibogaine worldwide. By shunning it and downplaying its significance because of your institutional commitment to schemes of opiate maintenance, the legalization camp is complicit in this prohibition. Which leads to this big split between the academics and policy wonks on the one hand, and the addict advocates of ibogaine.

My mistake is that I approach these things in a too  theoretical fashion. I reason: the desire to become abstinent is a solid by product of our social ways of prohibiting opiates and other drugs, and the idea of an ideal human being that lurks behind these prohibitions.

But, as some of the ibo people told me, it may not be a by product of social force alone; it may be a genuine desire ,never mind the way this desire developed in me.

Okay. That is true.

If I approach the ibo people with this Okay, could they approach me with more understanding of my problems with the self chosen use of ibo? Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has created its usefulness: prohibition. I see ibo as ‘just one of these treatments’ in a very symbolical sense.I am not talking about the pleasure of taking ibo, or its high level of interestingness, I am not refering to its  subjective functionality, but to its social symbolism.

What if ibogaine is just a much more interesting experience than doing coke or dope for the umpteenth time? Why be stuck in a rut? We don’t pay much attention to what the prohibitionists think anyway. What if it’s simply time to move on?

I maintain that the illustration I used about homosexuality could clarify this. People of course have the right to not want to be gay. But if society jails gays, marginalises them, blackmails them and ultimately destroys their identity, it is not fair to  ask people to remain gay, and true to their ‘inner self’.Of course I understand their desire to ungay themselves, and if they use ibo to do that ,be my guest.But the social function of the ibo in that context is : society’s soldier that chases the gayness out of gays. And I do not accept that because of my weird idea that gays have the right to be gays, and similar, intense drug users have the right to pursue that life style.

Like I said during my presentation in New Orleans, which you missed, ibogaine is not about elimination of all drugs, but self-determination for drug users. Part of any effort to reduce demand for the more addictive drugs, and force the market to supply more psychedelic “soft” drugs.

I once asked you to find the source of the following, apparently taken from Dutch government fact sheets:

“Out of the total population of 727,000, Amsterdam has around 5,100 hard-drug users. The primary thrust of policy is to discourage the use of drugs, and to combat the trade in drugs. The authorities also seek to minimize the risks incurred by drug users and to reduce as far as possible the nuisance factor for the general public. In the context of use, Amsterdam’s drug policy differentiates between hard and soft drugs, i.e.: cannabis is available, but at locations where no other illicit substances may be sold, and this “market separation” is strictly enforced. Of some 5,100 hard-drug users, around 2000 are of Dutch origin, with some 1350 having roots in the former colony of Surinam, the Netherlands Antilles and Morocco. Around 1750 users come from other European countries, mainly Germany and Italy. The total number of hard-drug users is steadily decreasing, while their average age is rising, from 26.8 years in 1981 to 39 years in 1999. In the same period the total number of drug users under 22 years of age dropped from from 14.4 percent to 1.6 %.”

At the time you informed me you were not really interested in helping find the source of this, because no matter how laudable the decline in heroin use involved, you do not support market separation because you do not believe in differentiating between pot and heroin. Subsequently, I came to understand that in Holland, cannabis was until recently consumed as hashish in tobacco cigarettes, while in America, everyone smokes pot, which is ubiquitous, including hard drug addicts. Junkies use pot to get over their jones. So people view going back to just smoking pot as returning to a more innocent, more easily manageable existence.

I have used the word ibo CLAN because of the special circle in which ibo is developing its mythical status. For me it is just another ‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and within a theoretical NIDA governed dominance of pharmacological understanding of intense drug use, not a psychological understanding or a societal one. Its like ( not the same!) as these compounds the industry now works on to block ALL ‘addictive’ behavior or ‘craving’, to be injected  from birth on.What a money maker ,this ulimate pharmacological zombyiser.

Come on now. Those vaccines are not going to be psycho-active like ibogaine. That zombie clan image is just more horror movie stuff, which will only impress folk already skeptical, or opposed to ibogaine. And how can NIDA do containment on a miracle?

To Sara, giving me ibo, and making me part of the interesting experience, would not change my ideas. My subjective reaction to ibo and my discussion of the social function of ibo are different levels of observation or analysis.

pc

Sara’s right. You should take it. I may not have taken the big dose, but at least I’ve been immersed in the subject for 20 years.

Your take on its social function can have no insight until you better understand the drug itself.

PS Dana shouted at me at the top of his voice in the New Orleans hotel. I did not really mind. Angry people do that.

But heated words are not insults, nor threats. And I at least was trying to continue the conversation, while you were keen to break it off.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
For me, you have to take into account the effect of the drug upon the body
and the brain. The democracy you are speaking of seems to claim that there
is an absolute independence of will regardless of intoxication, that someone
who has been using, say, heroin, for 5 years, has complete free will as to
whether he or she takes the next hit. Do you really believe that? “Uhm now,
well, what drug of choice shall I take today? How will I, with my free will,
choose to alter my consciousness today? Hey, how about heroin?! Ok, so I’ve
made the same choice for the last 5 years, but well that’s my free will.”
Heroin is an analgesic, an industrial strength painkiller. If you’re
struggling in life and your body’s repression system is fighting to hold
down feelings then just one hit of heroin is going to give you such a
feeling of elation that you aren’t easily going to stop using, maybe not
ever, and certainly not until another emotional process comes along with
sufficient strength to shake you out of it, a crisis of some sort, or a
progressive maturation. And, even then, it isn’t going to be easy to stop.
You’re going to need all the help you can get.

The hells we make for ourselves are much more confining than any government.

I submit that this whole thing you have of making ibogaine into the tool of
some regime to oppress those who seek freedom of choice is simply not
grounded in the reality of today’s world. I mean, no one, possibly bar
myself, is even suggesting this happen. No government agencies seem remotely
interested in ibogaine, they don’t give a shit about addicts and mostly, in
the case of the US government, basically finance all sorts of suspicious
covert operations disrupting foreign governments with the money they gain
from the drug trade anyway. They’ve got no interest in stopping anyone
taking heroin, beyond paying lip service at voting time.

Just look at Afghanistan. Ibogaine, by undermining the status quo, offers perhaps the best chance of overthrowing it.

So I urge you to look again at ibogaine and perhaps see the liberation it
profers, frequently to those who had given up all hope. And maybe even to
take a dose. To say it will not change your ideas, now that sounds pretty
closed. How can you know?

Actually, Nick, since Peter is articulating the doubts and objections of the “Heroin Solution” camp as a whole, it is rather unlikely the ideas will change that fast.

andria3a@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Some comments about this ‘resistance’ from Prof Cohen:

***A) PC is a brilliant man though using his huge intellect to bad-rap a treatment for addiction, which clearly has validity, use and healing for our peers/community and family and therefore our communities generally, annoys me A LOT.

B) At the New Mexico Lindesmith Conference, Marsha Rosenbaum, a woman I happen to admire a lot otherwise, tried to stop Dana from speaking and had I not intervened, would prolly have succeeded. I called her weeks later, to ask why she did that and she said she had forgotten even doing it..

C)There clearly is something about Iboga that upsets those with money and power in the movement, but I am unclear as to what it is…whatever it is, they are not articulating with any convincing to me. I think it’s personal, not theoretical, political or economic actually. BUT y’know when people have such fantastic brains, they can waste time with arguments that some will find interesting if unhelpful

D) PC is a star in some circles, so people like to connect to him: I love his mischievious childlike nature but I have had many one to ones with him and I often end up feeling unappreciated, so i keep a little distance from him nowadays.

E) I have written a longish e-mail to him, Nadelmann & Rosenbaum, saying in short, PLEASE stop being so arrogant…”if addicts are saying that Iboga improves their lives, nobody (including y’all) should be throwing theoretcial spanners in the works.”

So I’m not paranoid. It is not personal, however. Anyone who kept pushing ibogaine in Peter’s in-crowd would face the same ostracism eventually, because they’re bucking the program. Their group is excluding us, but almost unconsciously, or automatically. Marsha Rosenbaum doesn’t remember, you see….

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
Peter Cohen second letter is effectively more coherent than the first one
but I still believe that is position is stiff and incoherent.

The The Declaration of Geneva was adopted by the General Assembly of the
World MedicalAssociation at Genevra  in 1948 and amended bythe 22d World Medical
Assembly at Sydney in 1968 It is a declaration of physicians’ dedication to
the humanitarian goals of medicine, a declaration that was especially
importantin view of the medical crimes which had just been committed in Nazi
germany.
The Declaration of Geneva reads “AT THE TIME OF BEING ADMITTED AS A MEMBER
OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

a.. I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE myself to consecrate my life to the service of
humanity;
b.. I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their
due;
c.. I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
d.. THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
e.. I WILL RESPECT the secrets which are confided in me, even after the
patient has died;
f.. I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble
traditions of the medical profession;
g.. MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
h.. I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed,
ethnic origin, gender, nationality, politicalaffiliation, race, sexual
orientation, or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;
i.. I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life from its beginning
even under threat and I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the
laws of humanity;
j.. I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honor.”
Now if a dying addict is not sick, of course, you don’t have to help him .
Did I understood it , ?/!
You don’t have to help an alcoholic. What about a diabetic ? An obese ?
What if your country had 27 % of the men are addicted to opium, like after
the two Opium war in China ?
What if a superpower with the help of alcohol is destroying your people and
culture like in the “American Genocide” Europe versus Americas.? What if
goverments try to push addiction to their citizens?
To many questions for a busy specialist in addiction trying to reach his
quota of 10 % success rate.
God bless you
Francis
Sorry, nothing personal. Just few questions. Have you ever read ” brave new
world ” ?

With proper follow-up, our success rate is higher than 10%

ms_iboga@yahoo.com wrote:
I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

Not in the context of the proponents of heroin trials trying to influence gay AIDS bureaucrats via the harm reduction movement. Their ace in the hole is that there is no alternative to heroin maintenance. It’s inevitable, so just implement it. But the ibogaine makes that not true. So there IS an alternative. And THAT’S a big problem for Peter Cohen, Morgan, and Drucker.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

His arguments do give that difficulty short shrift.

nick227@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter!

I actually have elicited this reaction. It’s not as bad as it once was, because people have more respect for ibogaine the longer it’s around. And if they’re junkies, some day they might need it.

Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

sara119@xs4all.nl wrote:
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,

So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause

I donno. I just saw Ben DeLoenen’s film. It could make a believer out of you.

It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,

But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

freedomroot@gmail.com wrote:
Peter said he thought even partaking of the Ibogaine Interesting
Experience wouldn’t alter his subjective position that anchors his
thinking on the matter.

I’m not sure that assumption will/would hold up in practice.  It is
perhaps, how did the sandbagger put it?, a “mindy” approach to the
mystical.

And, for a counter-example, all of the social scientists who went and
“looked” at the hippie or commune or psychedelic cultural revolution
or whatever you wanna call it, were changed by the experiential
dimension of the participant-observation.

It would, I cerebrally offer, be likely to change something.

love from ny, rachel, ibo-wife

cohen.cedro@uva.nl wrote:
Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

But gay behavior stretches over a spectrum from committed monogamy to binge sex with 6 guys a night on levitra and crystal meth. No one on this list is against using drugs, or for the government prohibition. We just don’t want to be ADDICTED, because it’s time-consuming, inconvenient, and expensive.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

As a matter of fact, the standard dopamine model of 10 – 15 years ago has been rendered obsolete by new findings–partially by ibogaine research itself. Dopamine turns out not to be reward, but craving. The mice without the mGLUR5 pathway, remember?

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hundreds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a state system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?

The answer is that there was never consensus on slavery, and that contradiction lead to a civil war.

These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.

To the contrary, each group that has since attained its freedom did so by insisting that those rights included them.

When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

But we have a plan for dealing with that, which I outlined at the end of my last post. I do not believe your plan to end prohibition is realistic. You would set up a kind of Weimar situation where the Nazis would simply take over again, really pissed, in about 10 years.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see  why I use the example of homosexuality?

This would be news to purveyors of the conventional wisdom that addicts are incurable, and will always be in the system, either as a social service client, or as a homeless junkie sustaining the police state via petty crime that converts middleclass surplus capital into liquidity to prop up the banking system.

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discriminatory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

William Burroughs said that if you wish to alter or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial relation, you alter or remove the bottom number. Take away addiction, the system collapses.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy, an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

I do not understand how we could be identifying with the system, since the impulse to seek out ibogaine is much more akin to rejecting the supervision of methadone and going to the blackmarket.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all. The drug war destroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.

I’m not going to apologize for the bunch of little Nazis running the system, and I don’t have to. We did this to free our own people. You keep thinking that all drugs are equal, that there are no entheogens, nothing more salvific than good old smack.

This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

This is where you become utopian. We have to wait for ibogaine until you get legal heroin. The tawdry reality is methadone, and methadone up-regulates HIV production and trashes the liver of anyone on AIDS meds. Ibogaine, on the other hand, seems dramatically to improve Hep-C status, and  Glick’s synthetic 18 MC is a potential treatment for HIV.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink  can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )

There you go again. Ibogaine is imaginary; the effect is all mind control by mindvox.

The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether  when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

You want to do something about the Drug War? Organize or participate in some protest. Right now we have 140 cities on 6 continents marching on May 7th. I hope you will join us in Amsterdam. When we hit enough cities with big enough protests, the system will collapse, like in the Ukraine. Then we must be prepared to seize power ruthlessly and accord our enemies unlawful combatant status. Bush has renounced the protections of the Geneva Convention.as far as all drugwar bureaucrats  and law enforcement personal are concerned.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

You say we can’t have ibogaine until we reach utopia. Okay–at least our utopia is more imaginative than your utopia.

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com wrote:
Well, while I tend to agree with you in most ways Peter, I myself do know from experience that under today’s system of prohibition, it is a very hard road to toe while strung out (call it what you will- addicted, habitual user, self-absorbed, whatever), dodging prohibition’s enforcers while trying to scrape enough money together each and every day just to feel “not sick,” and life really can be extremely difficult to live like that- and yet as difficult and outright hellish as it can get, many of us still have trouble stopping. Again, I fully agree with you that we should be allowed to live and take any drug we so desire, including opiates and everything else really, and shouldn’t have to worry about stopping, but we do unfortunately. With this in mind, I am totally behind ibogaine, in that it sure was a nifty, amazing, beautiful way to completely cut my opiate use to miniscule levels (without my stupid pain issues, I would not have continued taking opiates actually).
This is why people might have a desire to have a way to “cure” the situation when people find themselves really prefering not to use drugs rather than go to jail, lose their home, etc, etc, and yet find themselves unable to find the “will power” (which I’m not entirely convinced is what’s needed anyway, having gone through this stupid situation again and again my own damned self) or whatever it is to quit taking the drugs.

You know, you and Nick would do the whole list a service by concentrating of getting Peter to justify himself, instead of throwing brick-bats at each other. We are so marginal compared to the Ethan Nadelmans that letting go of this focus was a big mistake.

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Sara, I think you mean free will coming from an addicts point of view when stopping the addiction. For me, I used opiates most of my life to make me feel better in some way or other. Pain, depression, anger, love….., etc., made me feel uncomfortable. All I knew was when I was opiated, I felt “better.” For a while. I fell in love with the euphoria of ALL opiates. Well, after years of eating, snorting, smoking, shooting dope I became so tore down from conning DR’s, being a middle man in dope deals, generally spending all my cash, and putting all my effort into keeping my jones at bay, that I just didn’t want to be addicted anymore. My choice. I have things that I want to accomplish that I just couldn’t seem to get done addicted. God knows that I gave it enough time to find out if opiates were fucking me up or not. I love the feeling of opiates, I just don’t want to have to be a slave to the grind anymore. I have to admit that the reaction that I got from my family as I nodded out at the table in front of my nephews and my Mom had something to do with it. I never could find that fine line between being half sick or nodding out. I never had enough dope. If I’d have had 5 kilo’s of heroin, I would have been wondering where to get more. I just couldn’t take it any more. All I knew was I had to find a way that actually worked at keeping me from being so sick when I tried to stop. I tried everything that came down the road to no avail until I found Ibogaine. Somehow Ibogaine has interrupted my addiction enough to let me think for myself instead of thinking about my addiction all the time. I’m loving my state of mind now, besides I’m sure there will be plenty of dope out there if I change my mind about it. I really don’t think I will this time. Thanx for asking Sara.    Peace and love to you and your family.  Randy

Well said. There has to be more to life than the rat-race. Heroin is just variant of rat race. Ibogaine is something else.

GardenRestaurant@comcast.net wrote:
This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the “bougeois”.

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs or
alcohol.
1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts referring to the social problems of
drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled  offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a dead
body.

In China  there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go back in
history.
God bless
Francis  ( ex drunk 🙂 )

Societies are going to make some kind of efforts to regulate substances. I think that we can justifiably require them to replace alcohol and cigarettes with cannabis.

Dana/cnw

P.S: This digest was prepared for the Global Marijuana March.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Magical Mystical Ibogaine Forum
Date: February 22, 2005 at 9:03:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

News flash from number 9 Bleeker St. IBO CONFERENCE A GAS
25 JUNKIES IN ONE ROOM                       NOBODY NODS OUT          If you
weren’t there you missied it.                       Randy

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 22, 2005 at 7:07:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 22.02.2005 um 11:28 schrieb Lee Albert:

Hi Ekki,

Lucky for you the rootbark came in around 5%. You must have done your homework on the dose levels beforehand.

So what are you hoping for with continued use?

Lee

i don´t plan another full dose for myself in near future.
maybe small booster doses.
are you still taking small amounts yourself, and why or why not?

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 22, 2005 at 6:15:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/22/05 5:50:47 AM, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< Can you give a little more info on the syringes used and how the ibogaine
was transferred into the syringe? Problem with syringes is that the ibogaine
gets clogged in the pipe outlet. Any such problems and if so how were they
resolved?

Thanks, >>

The ibogaine is getting clogged because the diameter of the hole is smaller
than the diameter of the tube.  Obtain a steel nail closer to the diameter of
the tube, warm it over the flame of a stove and then insert it in the hole,
melting the plastic and expanding the size of the hole.  That should
significantly resolve the matter of clogging.

Howard

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 22, 2005 at 5:50:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Congratulations!
Can you give a little more info on the syringes used and how the ibogaine was transferred into the syringe? Problem with syringes is that the ibogaine gets clogged in the pipe outlet. Any such problems and if so how were they resolved?
Thanks,
Lee

MrPure@aol.com wrote:

wow,
Just recently, er…January 22nd, a day I will never forget in a hurry, I was lucky enough to be freed of my addiction.  I have been a drug user for over 17 yrs and an alcohol abuser for a lot longer.  I have been freed……
After taking the ibogaine test dose at about 6pm, it took only what seemed to me as moments before I could feel the huge weight of wanting dope lifted off of me.
Within the hour my ibogaine brother started to flood my system with doses every 15 mins, I’m not sure exactly how much, for an hour.
As far as I remember at this point I was starting to hallucinate very hard, but nothing scary in fact it was a very calming effect.  I also at this point started puking, and was unable to digest all the ibogaine.  In fact we ran out of the ibogaine and had to send out for more.  It was at this point that I started too feel withdrawal symptoms, and was starting to get dope sick. Unfortunately for me the back up did not arrive for 4 hrs, and during this time as any dope addict can tell you, theses were not happy times!!  I was still tripping hard but feeling sick, I must have puked what felt like a hundred times.  Because of all the puking I now could not ingest the ibogaine orally.  So using baby sringes(without needle duh) it had to go in the butt.  I was so relieved that the ibogaine had arrive I did not care which orifice it was going into, because I already knew it was going to relieve the pain.
It was within seconds that I was back on my journey, no more withdrawal, just intense hallucinations.  All the visions I had were very pleasant and I never experience any pain.
It did take 2 doses in the butt to finally detoxify me completely, but ever since I have had no cravings for drugs or drink.  Granted this is only week 3 of my new life, but I’m a free man.
Just a quick side note, no I did not see God and I did not see any tribesmen as far as I remember. But I did see some pretty freaky shit which would change the life of any dope fiend.
I hope my experience can help people out there that don’t believe their is a cure to their sickness, there is, and our government don’t want people to know.
Thank you Dana Beal, your preaching has change the lives of so many.
Thank you to everyone out there that is treating people, you know who you are!
peace to you all
mrpure@aol.com

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 22, 2005 at 5:46:14 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

There is no doubt that the longer the time difference between sessions the greater the impact of the dose. That said after a point in time one is able to repress the effects. Also, i was once of the opinion that the first session should be the heaviest dosed as it would ensure a breaking open of the head. I have since changed my opinion but I do think that dose levels for ongoing treatment need  to be thought about to take into account physical tolerance build up and ability to suppress emotionally.

I chose my dose based on what I can handle and these days its at 6mg. Eboga uses that in different ways. Its action is varied from physical healing, mental improvement, past lives, individual trauma etc When we take eboga imo we are entering a healing space filled with spiritual doctors who work with us as we are at that moment. Only our soul actually knows whats going on. The ego tries to grasp it and to learn little by little.

For mini-sessions after 6 years of use I leave a minimum of 2 weeks. However, depending on the material that has been released I may need anything up to 2 months or 3 before I am ready to shift certain material again. In this case other aspects of the healing can take place such as education about oneself, relationships etc. Its about intention in the moment and a move to ones whole self which embraces the goddess.

The dose which is taken can be absorbed in different ways and it also depends on the blocking power of the ego in that moment. I wouldn’t dream of a dose greater than 10mg these days unless I was told specifically by an eboga spirit to up my dose at a given moment in a session. I stay with 6mg and I am happy at that level.

Dose can be used up in imagery also. Its a myriad of possibilities.

If your psyche is suppressing the dose then I would consider lowering your dose to the point where you feel no suppression and work from there with investigative intent.

Lee

slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Note that iboga may never give you this experience again, no matter
what the dosage – as you change, its effect on you changes as well.
Or maybe if you wait some years the chances would be better.

I wonder if anyone who has done multiple significant doses can
report on the dosages, the time between, and the comparable
effects?

In my own case, my psyche has learned how to suppress the effects
of large doses – there is no choice. I can feel the repression
start as iboga begins and fear rises, like a heavy iron door
shutting. I have never been able to release.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 04:31:51 -0800 ekki wrote:
> i recently tried a mini-session and didn´t like it
>that
>much, i missed the being blown away to mystical africa and outer
>space

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] technical questions
Date: February 22, 2005 at 5:28:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki,

Lucky for you the rootbark came in around 5%. You must have done your homework on the dose levels beforehand.

So what are you hoping for with continued use?

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
hi lee
i wrote my story on this list while you were taking a vacation. i did
one full session and took first 25g and later maybe 8 g of rootbark
extract said to contain about 5% alkaloids. my motivation was to get
off drugs. i did it alone at home when i woke up one morning hungover
with no opiates or vodka around and remembered i still had 50g of
extract lying around since last spring and just ate it spoonwise. a
good sideeffect is that i also stopped smoking without really planing
it. it was hell of a trip. the inital glow kind of disappeared after 2
month, that is 10 days ago, but it is here now again, maybe an effect
of the minisession i did.

i also treated my xgirlfriend a month ago, she didn´t have visions and
went to score the same day, but felt much better 3 days later, doesn´t
threaten suicide anymore, stopped shooting c and also her smack habit
went down. initially i was disappointed during the session that she
didn´t have such a journey i had but after a comment from howard i
decided that i shouldn´t really demand a certain result but just let
the ibo do what it does. she is motivated to get clean now and wants to
do another session.

i asked were to get empty capsules. i´ll check at the pharmacist.

peace
ekki

Am 21.02.2005 um 20:11 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Ekki,
>
> I presume you mean capsules filled with ibogaine and
> not empty? 🙂
>
> You need a friendly source…
>
> By the way, how many sessions have you done? Did you
> have an original provider? What are your motives?
>
> On comment on your earlier post re: dose level of 10mg
> or other. By remaining within a certain dose level, up
> to 6 mg (?) depending, you keep the session on a
> different level – different mindset. At 10 mg you are
> quite possibly up for a full 36 hour session.
>
> Lee
>
> — ekki wrote:
>> great! i should have checked before asking. where do
>> you get capsules?
>>
>>
>> Am 21.02.2005 um 15:01 schrieb Lee Albert:
>>
>>> Check out:
>>>
>>> http://www.my-eboga.com/administration.html
>>>
>>>
>>> ekki wrote:
>>> another question:
>>> people take HCl in capsules, is this better than
>> just drinking it in a
>>> glas of water?