Ibogaine List Archives – 2002-07

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 31, 2002 at 10:00:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Joshua wrote, “The US
comprises 5% of the world’s population and uses 25% of its resources. Our
population in the US is not the problem – that is a red herring.

- jt
Yes, this has always fascinated me, that even though already having more, we humans want more again.  It’s not good for the psyche, or society, or other people, or the environment.  But I don’t think it’s peculiar to America, except that, of course, we’re high on the food chain of it all.  I recently read about a study that said that beyond basic water, food, and shelter, more stuff tends to make people more unhappy.  What a notion!  Is all of our addiction to “getting and spending” causing more pain, even individually, than if we had to work harder physically for our grub, for instance?  Is the pressure to strive for more a given of capitalism or an inherent human kind of thing?  Is it patriarchal?  Etc.  And in what way is an addiction to ONE substance  (the Ring) an acting out of the whole societal mess?  Well, sorry to give more questions than answers.  I’m sure there are those here who have MANY answers for me!  Blessings, Jane  P.S. In another sense, i would take this to romantic love, the craving for another to love, be with, and support ONLY ME!  Is this a part of it?  Does this nuclear family stuff, i.e. “family values” contribute to our anxiety and distress?  I think so.
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] [Fwd: Bishop Pike and the Transmigration]
Date: July 31, 2002 at 7:53:00 PM EDT
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Delivered-To: dana@cures-not-wars.org
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:10:43 -0600
From: “Gary G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>
Subject: [Fwd: Bishop Pike and the Transmigration]
Sender: ggford@prod.shaw.ca
To: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Cc: stephen@goodfelloweb.com, MT <mthorn@ix.netcom.com>,
Brad Smith <chair@thule.org>, tsmith@innerx.net, stephen@goodfelloweb.com,
greglunt@aol.com, arjan.stam@hccnet.nl, luxefaire@earthlink.net,
taoss@worldnet.att.net, bidoche@bluewin.ch, watcher@mt.net
Reply-to: swimp@shaw.ca
Organization: SWIMP
X-Accept-Language: en
Status:

Dana, for the Innocents amongst us …

Innocents! –

Context –  Pike was an Episcopol Bishop based in
San Francisco (ex-Buena Yerba) California, whose
Son suicided and who felt clocks and things in his
room were moved overnight by his Son’s ‘Spirit’.

What basis? – Time!
The Thing which creeps upon us
Crouched on all fours
And pounces at the Momenmt of Despair,
Sweeping all Purpose and Power aside
At one debilitating lunge!

What FATE!  I am done …

Great Green Frog swimp@shaw.ca
————————–
ps: Who says Dick didn’t get mind-link
done in, by the way – how swift and
how attributable his mortal fall?

Dana Beal wrote:

BTW, the one book that has surfaced at the Ibogaine working group
recently is TRANSMIGRATION– discussion of the anoke mushroom. That
brought up the subject of Bishop Pike, who was Phil’s friend and
perished in the Dead Sea desert looking for the anoke mushroom (flesh
of God)– thought to be the lost Gnostic sacrament and present in in
the tincture in the wine served at the last supper. This tincture is
also thought to have contained Syrian Rue, and possibly iboga
alkaloids.

One of the properties of flesh of God, presumably, was that it would
confer invulnerability to Death.

He could be crucified, but not killed while under the influence.

Arch-Bishop James Pike marched with Martin Luther King at Selma. Does
anyone on any of these lists have any good sources on Pike?

Dana/cnw


Gary Gene “Far Too Stupid to put Theory over Experience!” Ford
Iowan Idiot Extraordinaire – swimp@shaw.ca
http://www.goodfelloweb.com/poems/gford1.html
http://pw1.netcom.com/~mthorn/afogbank.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/kainwhitten/ggfhush.html
http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/kainwhitten/ggflook.html
http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/kainwhitten/ggftypos.html
http://members.shaw.ca/swimp/plasma.html
click links for poems/last for 1972 UAFx ArcJet photos

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bishop Pike and the Transmigration
Date: July 31, 2002 at 5:59:11 PM EDT
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: MagickMirr@aol.com, dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

BTW, the one book that has surfaced at the Ibogaine working group
recently is TRANSMIGRATION– discussion of the anoke mushroom. That
brought up the subject of Bishop Pike, who was Phil’s friend and
perished in the Dead Sea desert looking for the anoke mushroom (flesh
of God)– thought to be the lost Gnostic sacrament and present in in
the tincture in the wine served at the last supper. This tincture is
also thought to have contained Syrian Rue, and possibly iboga
alkaloids.

One of the properties of flesh of God, presumably, was that it would
confer invulnerability to Death.

He could be crucified, but not killed while under the influence.

Arch-Bishop James Pike marched with Martin Luther King at Selma. Does
anyone on any of these lists have any good sources on Pike?

Dana/cnw

From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Karina ??
Date: July 31, 2002 at 5:42:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i’m just takinng amben for sleep and clonopin for my nerves i allways have been hyper 19 days no  methadone i am gonna chex when i cam do the ibo again thanks for your advice karina

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Karina ??
Date: July 31, 2002 at 5:27:19 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi ,

The only thing I would give is another dose of Iboga instead of all that many medication ,

Sara
—– Original Message —–
From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Karina ??

hi this is kjarina i went to the ER 7/167/18 7/20 7/21 7/23   they gaveme toradilol.  valium,amben clonoddine mvicodin andphenagen for nauea
i feel better know the physaocal part is over thank god no more mthadone
……………..
….
.

ewr3
+

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] re: Washington Post error.
Date: July 31, 2002 at 5:16:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 11:13 AM -0700 7/31/02, vector6@space.com wrote:
A man wildly more popular postmortem, shaping
our visions of the future from his grave, is just the
kind of paradox Dick would have relished. (In
“Valis,” a character named Phil Dick is told that the
government plans to write and publish novels in
his name after his death.)

This is not actually in VALIS, but at the climax of RADIO FREE
ALBEMUTH, which may be thought of as the screenplay for the movie
“VALIS” in the book VALIS.

RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH was a first attempt that was turned down by
Dick’s publisher (too born-again Christian), and was published only
after he died and his fans were jonesing for new Dick books. VALIS
was his second attempt, and just made the cut–even though it’s
considered to be a very difficult read. But the story line for RADIO
FREE ALBEMUTH survived and made it into VALIS thru an author’s ruse.
In the book, the VALIS entity is first encountered as movie roughly
modeled on “The Man Who Fell to Earth”–but with the story line of
ALBEMUTH.

VALIS, THE DIVINE INVASION, & THE TRANS-MIGRATION OF TIMOTHY ARCHER
are often referred to as “the VALIS Trilogy”–but in reality it’s a
quartet, since you’re really missing something unless you read
ALBEMUTH. For one thing, it’s much closer in time to Phil’s religious
experience, and conveys the flavor of that.

Other must-reads in this connection are NOW WAIT FOR LAST YEAR, TIME
OUT OF JOINT, FLOW MY TEARS THE POLICEMAN SAID, and especially A MAZE
OF DEATH (1968), which foreshadows many themes of the quartet. This
was based on a story idea by Bill Sarrill, who lived with Phil in
1968 and is still alive in Boston. Best books written on VALIS are IN
PURSUIT OF VALIS & the “Report on the Staten Island Project”:
IBOGAINE STORY.

Interesting, drug abuse, addiction, the Grail myth and the lost
entheogen of the early Gnostics are an important sub-theme in VALIS.
Christ stopped at Eboga.

Dana/cnw

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 31, 2002 at 3:32:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

NeuroSkull:  Why are you arguing religion?  There are many kinds of religious sects.  What do you think about the Jehovah Witnesses?  Latter day saints?  Islamic and Jewish religions?
Don’t we pretty much all believe in the same higher power?  Why must there be off shoots of the Catholic Religion? But then again look where the priests have took that religion. Because each sect thinks that they have it right..when all of us who are kidding ourselves and hiding behind the Lord each Sunday will be the first to be sent to hell for their hypocrisy.  JUST WORSHIP WHO YOU WERE TAUGHT TO WORSHIP AND STOP PUTTING DOWN ALL OF GOD’S SEPARATE ENTITIES.

Renee Boudreaux

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Philip K. Dick’s Future Is Now
Date: July 31, 2002 at 2:13:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Philip K. Dick’s Future Is Now
Long After the Sci-Fi Writer’s
Death, Hollywood
Embraces His Dark World

By Vincent P. Bzdek
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, July 28, 2002; Page G01

If someone were to write a
history of the
future as it has been dreamed
up by
Hollywood over the years, the
chapter on
today’s tomorrow would belong
in large part to
Philip K. Dick.

The pulp sci-fi writer’s
mind-bending ideas
hold a commanding spot in popular culture. Half a
dozen movies have been made
from his affably
dystopian short stories and novels, including Steven
Spielberg’s well-received
“Minority Report,” in
theaters now; Ridley Scott’s landmark “Blade
Runner” in 1982; and the
big-budget Arnold
Schwarzenegger hit “Total Recall” in 1990.

Three more adaptations are in
the works,
according to Variety: “A Scanner Darkly,” which Richard
Linklater is directing for
executive producers
Steven Soderbergh and George Clooney; “Paycheck,”
in development at Paramount;
and “King of the
Elves,” which is in the budgeting stage at Disney.
“Paycheck” has lived up to its
title: The short
story Dick originally sold for $195 was optioned for
close to $2 million, his agent
confirmed. If he
were still alive, that would make Dick, word for word,
one of the highest-paid
authors in Hollywood.

Dick’s influence through
inspiration may be
even more pronounced. Several film critics have noted
that “The Matrix,” “Dark City”
and other
alternate-reality-gone-horribly-wrong films feel a lot
like
Dick’s novels, especially
“Ubik” (1969), which
envisions a world of nonstop, ubiquitous,
personalized advertising. (In
one of the book’s
more memorable scenes, the hero, Joe Chip, is
threatened with a lawsuit by
his door.)

The central conceit of “The
Truman Show” is the
same as Dick’s “Time Out of Joint” (1959): A
fake town has been constructed
around the hero
without his knowing it. The technological paranoia
at the heart of “The X-Files”
and “Enemy of the
State” are vintage Dick. Even 2000’s “Memento”
owes something to Dick, who
played around with
similar backward-traveling narratives more than
30 years ago.

Sundance has fallen in love
with Dick, too. Art
house film director Darren Aronofsky said his
off-kilter 1998 hit “Pi” was
inspired by Dick’s
novels, as was Linklater’s animated “Waking Life”
last year.

In literature, some scholars
have given Dick
credit for godfathering the cyberpunk movement, the
noirish wave of sci-fi writing
in the late ’80s
and early ’90s that anticipated and chronicled the
darker
crannies of cyberspace and
computing. “The Man
in the High Castle,” which won science fiction’s
top honor, the Hugo Award, in
1963, has been
called a classic of the genre. His novels are required
reading in many college lit
classes and Dick
has developed a cult following on campuses.

Seventeen of Dick’s books are
in print, some of
them for the first time. Vintage has accelerated
plans to put 13 others into
circulation, hoping
to have his entire oeuvre in bookstores within two
years. In the United States
alone, Dick’s books
sold 500,000 copies last year; worldwide, the
number is two to three times
that, his agent
says.

And to top it off, his
autobiographical novel
“Valis” has been made into an opera.

“What Franz Kafka was to the
first half of the
20th Century, Philip K. Dick is to the second half,”
wrote “Maus” author Art
Spiegelman.

Alas, such reverence and its
rewards utterly
eluded Dick while he was alive. He wrote 36 novels and
more than 100 short stories
without making much
money or gaining much notice. He liked to tell
people he survived on dog food
during one hard
stretch, and he often wrote at breakneck speed,
while chomping amphetamines,
just to stay ahead
of bill collectors. Dick succumbed to a stroke 20
years ago at the age of 53,
just before the
first of the films based on his work, “Blade Runner,”
was
released.

If you’ve read any of Dick’s
stories, though,
you have to assume that somewhere in an alternate
universe he’s wearing a
lopsided grin.

“Actually, I think he would be
amused by his
celebrity,” says Isa Hackett, one of his three children.

A man wildly more popular
postmortem, shaping
our visions of the future from his grave, is just the
kind of paradox Dick would
have relished. (In
“Valis,” a character named Phil Dick is told that the
government plans to write and
publish novels in
his name after his death.)

Though he wrote pulp fiction,
Dick was foremost
an intellectual puzzlemaker. Using a weird
algebra of shifting realities,
all-encompassing
paranoia and slam-bang plots, he constructed wildly
original mind games that call
into question the
nature of reality itself. Like all good puzzles, though,
Dick’s stories often have
elegant,
gasp-inducing solutions: Think O. Henry with a zap gun.

His own life story, however,
may have been the
most tangled brainteaser he ever concocted, with an
ending as surprising as any in
his books.

Philip Kindred Dick and his
twin sister, Jane,
were born Dec. 16, 1928, in Chicago. Jane, however,
survived only 40 days. It was
a loss that
haunted Dick and his work, leaving him with a lifelong
sense of culpability for the
death and
surfacing in his novels repeatedly as a fixation on
split
identities and a search for
wholeness.

In 1930, Dick and his mother
settled in
Berkeley, Calif., the city that was to shape his
anti-authoritarian world view.
He wrote his
first novel at 14 and never stopped. In one five-year
period, he wrote 16 novels,
churning out as
many as 68 pages a day.

He briefly attended
UC-Berkeley but dropped out
rather than fulfill the ROTC requirement. During
the ’60s, Dick became a bona
fide hippie,
immersing himself in the counterculture and in antiwar
activities, as well as drugs.
His house was
broken into during the period, and his belongings and
papers were destroyed by a
bomb planted inside,
feeding his already lush paranoia. He said Marin
County officials warned him to
leave the area
or he’d be shot in the back.

He moved to the burbs and
spent much of his
writing life exploring the rough edges of psychosis,
intoxication and hallucinated
worlds.

“He wasn’t remotely
schizophrenic,” says Dick’s
longtime friend and agent Russell Galen. “There
was never any diagnosis of
mental illness, no
medical evidence for that whatsoever.”

His life was certainly
troubled, though. He
burned through five marriages, lived with street people
for a time, wore threadbare
clothes most of his
life, wrote to the FBI about suspected neo-Nazi plots
and suffered what he thought
was a nervous
breakdown. Toward the end of his life, he claimed to
have had a vision in which he
was contacted by
an alien being he called Valis, for Vast Active Living
Intelligence System. He spent
the rest of his
life writing about the experience.

“He was very gifted
intellectually, and yet so
emotionally fragile,” says Hackett, who was a teenager
when her father died. “He was
often not
comfortable in his own skin, as he suffered from
terrible
bouts of anxiety and
depression.”

At the same time, Hackett
says, “he had a
fantastic sense of humor, and he could be very charming
and charismatic. His
sensitivities gave him
great empathy for the suffering of others.”

John Simons, professor of
literature at
Colorado College and an expert on Dick’s works, says
that
what made Dick’s writing
worthy made his life
difficult.

“Dick was a strange
wonderful/terrible man,”
Simons argues. “Crazy and compassionate, violent
and gentle, mesmerizing and
terrifying.”

He was his own puzzle, in
other words, and
remained so even in death. When his heart failed after a
stroke in 1982, Dick finally
fulfilled his
lifelong desire to be reunited with his twin sister. At
his
request, Dick was buried in a
cemetery plot in
Fort Morgan, Colo. — the state where his parents
courted — alongside the tiny
body of Jane.

Why, a rational metroplex-goer
must ask, has
mainstream Hollywood — Spielberg and Tom Cruise,
no less, the mainest of
streams — embraced
such a countercultural tributary of loopiness and
paranoia? It’s as if Frank
Capra had teamed up
with Hunter S. Thompson for a five-pic deal.

“You would have to kill me and
prop me up in
the seat of my car with a smile painted on my face to
get me to go near Hollywood,”
Dick once told an
interviewer.

“There is probably more than
one answer to this
question,” Hackett says. His “wow” factor is how
recognizable the future he
imagined is now, she
says, because he was one of the first writers to
focus on the many downsides of
technology.

Others agree. “Dick’s concerns
are in sync with
our times, with the real future we are facing, the one
dominated by media, computers
and virtual
reality, and by commerciality rather than by rocket
ships
and ray guns and Orwellian
totalitarianism,”
says Gary Goldman, who helped write the screenplay
for “Total Recall” and was one
of the first
writers on the “Minority Report” script, as well as the
movie’s executive producer.

Dick himself wrote: “We live
in a society in
which spurious realities are manufactured by the media,
by governments, by big
corporations. We are
bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by
very sophisticated people
using very
sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust
their
motives. I distrust their
power.”

“Minority Report” the movie,
which actually
taps several Dickian ideas, is Exhibit A for the case.
Omnipresent, electronic
billboards scan your
retinas for ID so they can personalize their spiel as
you pass by. Think
Amazon.com’s automatic lists
of book suggestions gone nuclear.

And the plot is, among many
other things, an
argument about safety vs. liberty, creepily relevant at
the moment as Washington
debates which civil
liberties it’s willing to surrender to crack down on
terrorism. The conundrum Dick
posits: In the
interest of a crime-free city, would you be willing to
arrest people before they
commit crimes if
psychics could predict accurately that they were going
to?

Spielberg’s ending sides with
the view of
Benjamin Franklin, who famously warned that those who
give up essential liberty to
obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither.

The short story is more
paradoxical. The system
of arresting people who haven’t done anything yet
remains intact in Dick’s
ending. And his last
sentence suggests that the flaw in the system — that
the
psychics are not infallible —
will probably
recur as well. In many of his stories, Dick concludes
that
new technology often creates
new problems of
its own rather than solving the ones it was designed
to fix.

But Galen doesn’t buy the
argument that Dick
was ahead of his time. Dick wrote about issues that
were just as relevant in the
’50s and ’60s, he
argues.

“The difference is that the
prejudice against
him during his life because he wrote science fiction
stories has slowly melted
away,” Galen says.
“Science fiction is more accepted now.”

Thanks, once again, to the
movies. “Star Wars,”
“Star Trek,” “E.T.,” “Close Encounters of the Third
Kind,” “2001: A Space Odyssey”
and “Blade
Runner” have broken through to mass audiences,
making the galaxy safe for
science fiction of
all sorts, even the outrageous books of Philip K. Dick.

Part of the reason that Dick’s
work — and
science fiction in general — translate so well to the
big
screen is that movies
themselves are a kind of
science fiction.

J.P. Telotte, professor of
literature,
communication and culture at Georgia Tech, calls cinema
“fundamentally a kind of time
machine, a device
that effectively freed both its audience and its early
users from a conventional
sense of place and
time.” You walk into a theater and you are essentially
transported, visually and
emotionally, to an
alternative reality. Such transportations are Dick’s
chief
subject.

Others say his appeal is
simpler, and more
crass.

“The Dick projects that have
become big-budget
movies all have a simple but fascinating premise
that gets expressed in a
chase,” says Goldman.

Hollywood loves Dick, the
argument goes,
because he was a master at creating “high concept”
hooks that grab your attention
in 10 seconds,
Galen said. These one-line ideas can be fully
developed in the very short
space that a movie
allows.

For example:

• An android hunter starts to
wonder if he’s an
android himself. (“Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep?,” aka “Blade Runner”)

• The Germans and the Japanese
have won World
War II and divided America in two. Or have
they? (“The Man in the High
Castle”)

• A detective whose two brain
hemispheres have
stopped talking to each other ends up spying on
himself. (“A Scanner Darkly”)

“Hollywood is interested in
Dick for all the
wrong reasons,” Galen says. “It’s as if a brain surgeon
who also happens to be a
gorgeous supermodel
walked into a party and everyone said, ‘Show us
your breasts!’ ”

“Dick is fearless in pursuing
the ramifications
of his ideas,” Goldman says. Hollywood is more
squeamish. Movies made from
his books miss most
of his searching and philosophizing, the real
art he made out of pulp.

But movies haven’t hurt Dick’s
career, or his
storytelling. Dick wrote so fast, sampling so many
ideas, it was more like
riffing, like jazz
solos with words. Directors have taken some of these
great
riffs and added bass and
drums, developing
ideas and characters that Dick dropped before they
were fully realized.

Dick acknowledged, sort of,
that a rough cut of
“Blade Runner” he saw just before he died had its
merits.

“It was terrific,” he wrote.
“It bore no
relation to the book. Oddly, in some ways it was
better. What
my story will become is one
titanic, lurid
collision of androids being blown up, androids killing
humans, general confusion and
murder, all very
exciting to watch.

“As a writer, though, I’d like
to see some of
my ideas, not just the special effects of my ideas,
used.”

Dick seems to be getting his
wish.

“Hollywood has embraced Dick’s
work because the
language of cinema is changing,” says Jason
Koornick, creator of
PhilipKDick.com. Goldman
concurs, arguing that an era of simplification in
the movies is over, and now,
as in the ’60s,
moviegoers are more open to unusual approaches to
storytelling and narrative
structure.

“It is no accident that a ’60s
writer like Dick
is part of a revival of ’60s cinema style,” Goldman
says.

Simons argues that Dick’s
lasting appeal is
similar to Alfred Hitchcock’s in that his heroes are
average Joes and Jolenes
confronting a
confusing, often incomprehensible world. “Dick’s basic
question is: What’s real or
not real? What is
human and what is not?” Those are questions that
resonate right now, Simons
says, and always
will.

Dick had some answers to his
questions, too, a
method behind the madnesses he spun. What is
most human is empathy, he
believed, and acts of
kindness, especially in worlds in which people
behave more like the machines
that surround
them than humans. The test to tell the difference
between a replicant and a
human in “Androids”
was a test for empathy.

“I like to build universes
that do fall apart,”
Dick wrote, because “objects, customs, habits, and ways
of life must perish so that
the authentic human
being can live. And it is the authentic human being
who matters most, the viable,
elastic organism
that can bounce back, absorb, and deal with the new.”

© 2002
The Washington
Post Company

___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Brain Receptor May Be Key to Non-Addictive Morphine
Date: July 31, 2002 at 2:11:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brain Receptor May Be Key to Non-Addictive Morphine
Tue Jul 30, 5:30 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – Blocking a particular brain
receptor may minimize the addictive nature of morphine
without diminishing the drug’s pain-killing effects,
new research suggests.

Morphine is widely used to treat severe pain, but one
of its drawbacks is that patients can become addicted
to the drug. A structure in the brain called the M5
muscarinic acetylcholine receptor is a component of the
brain system involved in the pleasurable effects of
morphine. Researchers set out to see whether blocking
the receptor would minimize the risk of morphine
addiction.

The investigators first genetically engineered mice to
deactivate the gene for the M5 receptor. Switching off
the M5 receptor substantially reduced the desire for
morphine in these mice.

When normal mice were given morphine, the animals,
presumably in search of another fix, spent extra time
hanging around the part of the cage where they had
received the drug. In contrast, mice that had the
receptor turned off did not linger in this part of the
cage unless they were given a very high dose of the
drug.

Dr. Anthony S. Basile, formerly of the National
Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases
in Bethesda, Maryland, is the lead author of a report
on the findings published in the Early Edition of the
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences ( news
– web sites). Basile is now at Alkermes, Inc. in
Cambridge, Massachusetts.

The researchers wanted to make sure that blocking the
receptor did not affect the pain-killing powers of
morphine. Even though switching off the receptor seemed
to make morphine less addictive, the engineered mice
experienced the same level of pain relief as normal
mice, the report indicates. And the investigators also
found that the genetically engineered mice experienced
fewer withdrawal symptoms after being taken off
morphine.

The findings suggest that a drug that blocks the M5
receptor may be an effective way to reduce the risk of
addiction to morphine without sacrificing pain relief,
according to Basile and his colleagues. They note that
the receptor is present mainly in the brain, so a drug
that blocks the receptor is unlikely to cause serious
side effects.

Because nicotine, alcohol, cocaine and other drugs all
affect similar brain circuitry as morphine, the M5
receptor may also be involved in other types of
addiction, the researchers report.

Eli Lilly Research Laboratories provided some of the
funding for the research.

SOURCE: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
2002;10.1073/pnas.162371899.

___________________________________________________________________
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From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Karina ??
Date: July 31, 2002 at 1:25:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i went to different hospital  and told them i wa s in withdrawl and they gave me prescriptios, i am taking amben clonopi, seraquil  the ibogaine was great the 1st day ihad taken my methadone so for 2 gays they gave me k morphine and valim or xanax then  i woke up sick and they gave me 2 ibogaine pill i loved it i don’t remember  everythinh i saw i had aq good trip i would do  it again karina

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Karina ??
Date: July 31, 2002 at 1:14:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/31/02 12:50:35 PM, Mzzthangg13@aol.com writes:

hi this is kjarina i went to the ER 7/16, 7/18,  7/20, 7/21,  7/23   they
gave me
toradol, valium, ambien, clonodine, vicodan and phenergan for nausea

Karina,

Where you given all of the drugs above each time you went to the ER or how
and when were they administered.

Also, are you currently taking any medications?

And, can you describe what you ibogaine experience was like during the peak
effects stages?

Thanks

Howard

From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Karina ??
Date: July 31, 2002 at 12:50:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi this is kjarina i went to the ER 7/167/18 7/20 7/21 7/23   they gaveme toradilol.  valium,amben clonoddine mvicodin andphenagen for nauea
i feel better know the physaocal part is over thank god no more mthadone
……………..
….
.

ewr3
+

From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Karina ??
Date: July 31, 2002 at 12:42:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Karina ??
Date: July 31, 2002 at 11:54:24 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/31/02 12:02:40 AM, Mzzthangg13@aol.com writes:

hi i just did ibogaine i loved it……..the only problem i did not stay
long
enough i felt fine the day i left but the 2nd day i went into methadone
withdrawals i wanted to cut my legs off the pain was so severe i went to
the  ER 6 times but now  i have no withdrawals jut insomnia      i  can
handle
it…………the people that are on crack, cocaine speed do not do through
physical withdrawal  and the have an easier time of OT  any more questions
email me Karin

Karina,

How far apart where you ER visits and what did they do for you.  If they gave
you any medications could you tell us what they were.  Anything you can tell
us will be valuable to anyone who is involved with ibogaine therapy.

Howard

From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the CRACK incentive
Date: August 31, 2002 at 6:23:49 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In reply to Rebecca I just wanted to say that women who chose to have
abortions do so for a variety of reasons known mainly only to themselves.
Hopefully they are making a responsible descision and have considered any
alternatives.  Its a bit harder for someone craving and at rock bottom to
make those sort of descisions.  Anyone who has been in that position, which
I think most of us would have seeing we are all reading this list, knows how
desperate you can get when needy.  I do agree that most would certainly find
an easier and quicker way to score if desperate but that doesn’t explain the
moral attitude of the people behind this sort of compaign.  And as I said in
my last posting why not target all sorts of other groups of women,   the
list could go on and on ;   alcoholics, depression sufferers, any women with
physciatric problems,   What about incentives for men as well if they have
problems with drugs, alcohol, anger management etc. etc. etc.
Also $200 in this day and age is a piffling amount for an operation such as
this.  It would be lucky to cover a weeks groceries which I see as a bit of
an insult really.
PS
When we talk about sterialisation do they mean tying tubes or a hysterectomy
or what.  ?????  I know there are a lot of people who reckon its no big deal
but I would like to hear them say that after they have had the operation cos
personally I don’t reckon its very pleasant at all.
—–Original Message—–
From: Rebecca Silverman <becca_vail@hotmail.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Wednesday, 31 July 2002 15:05
Subject: [ibogaine] the CRACK incentive

I’m just now reading my ibogaine folder so I don’t mean to restart a convo
that made so many people jump down each others throats but to give one more
woman’s opinion I don’t get the problem. Or yes I do, but not like why it’s
the end of the world.

Offering $200 to someone who has no money and is on drugs will probably
motivate them to get that money so they can do more drugs. I’m sure that
CRACK knows that and that’s the whole point of offering it.

I think patrick and preston agreed that it’s not a lot of money and for
someone to sit around and wait for that while they are sterilized, they
would find some other way to get money instead, which I also agree with.

Someone else brought up how what should happen is that person should be
offered treatment. Which made me laugh a little because when I was out
there
I think one thing I learned is that not all of them, but most of the people
who are out there, want to be. They don’t want treatment they want more
drugs. Should they be forcibly helped against their will??

To all the people who got so upset about the potential of killing babies
that don’t exist, how do you feel about abortion? I don’t get the problem
at
all. Sorry.

I don’t see the big problem with the incentive and I don’t see any simple
solution either because I don’t completely side with Patrick and all the
other legalise everything people because I think that would surely increase
drug use at the same time I do think everyone has the right to make their
own choices.

Have a great day all.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 31, 2002 at 1:38:02 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: <ascending@hushmail.com>

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if these future moms are
being herded into the sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug
problems I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids
being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want
to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know
your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it
shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that. <<

Paying for all what? How much of your tax money goes towards paying for “all
that,” whatever that means? Do you even know?

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read anything except drug
lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no
shortage of babies. None at all.<<

The world population was estimated at somewhere around 1-1.6 billion at the
beginning of the 20th century. At the end of the century, there were about 6
billion. Current projections estimate a 9 billion population in 2050. That
means that we are reaching the apex of the curve. US population would be
declining were it not for immigration.

Again, if you start with 2 people and give a 2% growth rate, then in 1500
years the population would be 16 billion.

Yes, smart growth and using resources wisely is key, but the number of
people on the earth is a small element in a complex problem. The US
comprises 5% of the world’s population and uses 25% of its resources. Our
population in the US is not the problem – that is a red herring.

– jt

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the CRACK incentive
Date: July 31, 2002 at 12:45:41 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Rebecca Silverman” <becca_vail@hotmail.com>

I’m just now reading my ibogaine folder so I don’t mean to restart a convo
that made so many people jump down each others throats but to give one
more
woman’s opinion I don’t get the problem. Or yes I do, but not like why
it’s
the end of the world.

Offering $200 to someone who has no money and is on drugs will probably
motivate them to get that money so they can do more drugs. I’m sure that
CRACK knows that and that’s the whole point of offering it.

Yes, which is exactly why they would make the rash decision of sterilizing
themselves for $200.

I think patrick and preston agreed that it’s not a lot of money and for
someone to sit around and wait for that while they are sterilized, they
would find some other way to get money instead, which I also agree with.

Someone else brought up how what should happen is that person should be
offered treatment. Which made me laugh a little because when I was out
there
I think one thing I learned is that not all of them, but most of the
people
who are out there, want to be. They don’t want treatment they want more
drugs. Should they be forcibly helped against their will??

Again, it would be a personal choice, not forced. Incidentally, CRACK does
offer treatment, or it does refer people to it who want it.

To all the people who got so upset about the potential of killing babies
that don’t exist, how do you feel about abortion? I don’t get the problem
at
all. Sorry.

Abortion != (does not equal) sterilization. Sterilization is a permanent
condition, whereas abortion terminates one pregnancy.

I don’t see the big problem with the incentive and I don’t see any simple
solution either because I don’t completely side with Patrick and all the
other legalise everything people because I think that would surely
increase
drug use at the same time I do think everyone has the right to make their
own choices.

I think the best option would be to legalize cannabis, period. And I would
also favor the legalization of LSD, MDMA, psilocybin, fly agaric, and most
other psychedelics, and with that to encourage responsibility and set and
setting in their use. Many of these substances can have benefits, especially
when used in therapeutic settings. The underground use and distribution of
psychedelics does anything but encourage responsible use, except when
friends give good advice and so forth.

But, as far as highly addictive substances, harm reduction should be the
key. Keeping heroin and cocaine in the black market isn’t helping anyone. If
pure and known quantities of these drugs were available to addicts free of
charge, in observed settings, with addicts encouraged, but not forced, to
get treatment (with options such as ibogaine available), then, at the very
least, the number of OD deaths would drop dramatically. The truth is that
most people won’t do heroin, period, even if it is legal, due to its stigma,
and because of the obvious vicious cycle it engenders. But think of the drop
in crime if addicts didn’t have to pay for their drugs anymore. Think of the
positive repercussions if addicts were treated under the umbrella of health
and social issues rather than as criminals. I’m not talking about
decriminalization of highly addictive drugs, as then those drugs would still
be in the balck market, and the problems with purity and money would still
exist. Pharmacologically, heroin is very safe – it’s when the unknowns in
purity and processing get involved that the real problems arise. I’m talking
about legalization for addicts, with the product supplied free of charge,
rather than allowing the service for those who are “just curious,” and who
want to try it for the first time. I suppose the black market would still
exist for those people, but it would be much, much smaller.

Anyway, just a thought. I tend to favor the most compassionate approach over
those which emphasize unrealistic fears, and also over those which
criminalize something which, at its core, is a health and social issue.

As an aside, cannabis use is lower in Amsterdam among residents than in the
US.

– jt

From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the CRACK incentive
Date: July 31, 2002 at 12:02:06 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi i just did obogaine i loved it……..the only problem i did not stay long enough i felt fine the day i left but the 2nd day i went into methadone withdrawals i wanted to cut my legs off the pain was so severe i went to the ER 6 times but now  i have no withdrawals jut insomnia      i  can handle it…………the people that are on crack, cocaine speed do not do through  physical withdrawal  and the have an easier time of OT  any more questions email me Karin

From: “Rebecca Silverman” <becca_vail@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] the CRACK incentive
Date: July 30, 2002 at 11:05:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m just now reading my ibogaine folder so I don’t mean to restart a convo that made so many people jump down each others throats but to give one more woman’s opinion I don’t get the problem. Or yes I do, but not like why it’s the end of the world.

Offering $200 to someone who has no money and is on drugs will probably motivate them to get that money so they can do more drugs. I’m sure that CRACK knows that and that’s the whole point of offering it.

I think patrick and preston agreed that it’s not a lot of money and for someone to sit around and wait for that while they are sterilized, they would find some other way to get money instead, which I also agree with.

Someone else brought up how what should happen is that person should be offered treatment. Which made me laugh a little because when I was out there I think one thing I learned is that not all of them, but most of the people who are out there, want to be. They don’t want treatment they want more drugs. Should they be forcibly helped against their will??

To all the people who got so upset about the potential of killing babies that don’t exist, how do you feel about abortion? I don’t get the problem at all. Sorry.

I don’t see the big problem with the incentive and I don’t see any simple solution either because I don’t completely side with Patrick and all the other legalise everything people because I think that would surely increase drug use at the same time I do think everyone has the right to make their own choices.

Have a great day all.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

From: “paul harvey” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] helping or killing, or going round in circles….
Date: July 30, 2002 at 9:58:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/29/2002 6:50:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

> Breeding addicts: as far as I am aware Brett, there is no gene that
>
>
> hold on there, are you really certain theres no `gene` or anything that
> addicts pass to their children?? I know an awful lot of families of
> smack-heads.
>
>                    regards,  larryt.

the ease at which we many of us invoke the “explanatory” principle, when faced with such a multi-dimensional and complex process as addiction, is incredible.
we seek answers that soothe: addiction has a genetic root /addiction is an effect of macro socio-economic forces/ addiction is a result of low
self-esteem and childhood imprint vulnerability …pick a card, any card…
its seems to be a throw back to the illusion that we somehow inhabit a clockwork universe of cause and effect, a newtonian-cartesian space that contains all the answers,(if only we knew how to ask the right questions…)
addiction, like the universe itself has at its heart a deeply irrational streak – ask any former or current addict.
i doubt if there is a “hidden variable” of addiction, a single cause that will magically “explain” the totality of process and phenomena
that label itself addiction.
most physicists have given up the grand narrative of a unified field theory of the universe that will explain everything. likewise, its
a pointless exercise debating the tired nature/nuture dichotomy of addiction.
its perhaps more helpful to understand addiction as a process where cause and effect are of a quantum nature : a causes b causes c, but also b causes a causes c….
yes it is genetic,but also cultural,also psychological, also behavioural..it is all these things and more..and each is both a cause and effect of the other.
the more interesting question is why we seek these answers in the first place…its easier to negate any responsibility for who we are, right here, right now..if we can somehow explain and justify our thoughts,
feelings and actions with reference to some external causal agent : our genes, our parents, society, the man who reads the news, is to blame for our addicted states of being…
where does it leave us, IF and WHEN we choose to seek freedom beyond
physical addiction and dependancy if we can say “yeah, i failed, but it wasn’t my fault, it was…(insert your object of blame), it wasn’t me”.
knowing WHY some of us became addicts is less important than knowing
HOW to live without the monkey on your back…knowing that a “gene” was responsible for me living on the streets,begging outside the tubestations in london to support a heavy opiate habit would not have made the slightest difference to my state of mind or behaviour at the time.
knowing however, that there was a way out, a doorway beyond my present self at the time, did make a difference, for me that difference was ibogaine, but anything that allows you to look beyond your present state of being, that doesn’t trap you in repeating closed loops of thought, feeling and action is worth it and ultimately, seeking a single cause that explains the totality of who you were, who you are and who you will be is not the answer, however seductive it seems at the time.
having said that, if it is genetic, will we get gene therapy to cure us of our addictions, behavioural pathologies and those weird thoughts i often have 😉

paul

_________________________________________________________________
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] show this to Aivia
Date: July 30, 2002 at 6:48:21 PM EDT
To: farid@no-log.org
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Sat, 27 Jul 2002
Source: Guardian, The (UK)
Copyright: 2002 Guardian Newspapers Limited
Contact: letters@guardian.co.uk
Website: http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/175
Author: Andrew Osborn of the Guardian

EXPENSIVE OSLO IS CHEAP FIX CAPITAL

In a Country Where Drugs Cost Less Than Alcohol, Heroin Addiction Is
Causing Growing Alarm To Norwegian Authorities

Oslo- Its standard of living was officially recognised this week as the
best money can buy but oil-rich Norway has a darker, less publicised claim
to fame: Oslo has become Europe’s drug overdose capital and is awash with
heroin.

The city is infamously expensive. A pint of beer will set you back UKP 5, a
pack of cigarettes UKP 5.50 and even a Big Mac costs close to UKP 3.
Heroin, however, is relatively cheap-one tenth of a gram costs about the
same as 20 Marlboro.

The drug’s relative affordability – it has halved in price in the last
decade – has seen thousands of ordinary Norwegians develop a habit with
fatal consequences.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1412.a05.html

——————————

From: outofprint <outofprint@barnesandnoble.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] A new website
Date: July 30, 2002 at 11:49:01 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] from another list
Date: July 29, 2002 at 10:57:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

original message below:
********************

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human
face–forever.”
– George Orwell (1903 – 1950

http://fyi.cnn.com/2002/fyi/teachers.ednews/07/26/school.drug.dog.ap/index.htm
l

SIOUX FALLS, South Dakota (AP) — Officials at a South Dakota school
confined students to their classrooms for several hours while a police dog
toured the rooms, sniffing children as young as 6 to check for drugs,
according to a lawsuit filed against the school.

The German shepherd got off its leash in a kindergarten classroom at the
Wagner Community School and chased students during the May search, the
court papers allege. They claim some students started crying and at least
one urinated involuntarily.

The lawsuit, filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Sioux Falls by the
parents of 17 elementary and high school students, wants such activity
declared a violation of the constitutional right against unreasonable
searches. It also seeks unspecified damages and an order stopping the
practice.

Repeated attempts by The Associated Press to reach Wagner Principal Neil
Goter and school board officials were unsuccessful Thursday. Kenneth
Cotton, the school district’s lawyer, told The New York Times he could not
comment on the allegations specifically, but he said he had talked to two
students who told him the dog visited their classrooms only briefly and “in
an orderly way.”

The American Civil Liberties Union, which is involved in the class-action
lawsuit, alleged that the Wagner School Board approved the search. The
school board is named as a defendant, along with former Wagner Police Chief
Richard Volk and Neil McCaleb, assistant secretary of Indian Affairs in the
Interior Department.

The lawsuit alleges that a similar drug-dog search was conducted a few days
after the first one.

Some students experienced physical discomfort when they were not allowed to
go to the bathroom for several hours during the searches, according to the
lawsuit. It says students were told not to pet the dog, not to look at it
or make any sudden movements, and some students feared the dog would bite
them.

In a news release, Jennifer Ring, executive director of the Dakotas chapter
of the ACLU, said, “The very notion of there being a drug problem in
kindergarten is ridiculous.”

The lawsuit is the latest episode in a dispute between the ACLU and the
school board in Wagner, 85 miles southwest of Sioux Falls. In March, the
ACLU sued the board, alleging the school system’s method of selecting board
members discriminates against American Indians.
The 17 students filing the latest lawsuit are Indian, the ACLU said.

From: “paul harvey” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] re : in valis we trust
Date: July 29, 2002 at 9:31:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dana – “in valis we trust” – i should explain – whilst on my last ibogaine trip, these words fell across the screen –
ive no idea who “don” is and whilst it may indeed be another version of his belief system, i am not qualified to comment.

as for all belief systems :

“in the province of the mind, what is believed true is true, or becomes true within limits to be learned by experience and experiment. In the province of the mind, there are no limits.”

j.c.lilly – “programming and meta-programming the human bio-computer”.

it was a throw away line and/or a message from our cosmic sponsers –
no offence meant.

other things – has anyone mapped the chapter in “the invisible landscape” by the late terrence mckenna and his brother dennis, on the ability of harmaline to transform our rna/dna into a transciever of hyperdimensional knowledge and entity contact – over the years i’ve
dipped into this particular text, but its only recently ive made any connection to ibogaine.
Its a pretty dense text so I’ll summarise its main points in the next few days and post it up for anyone whos interested – im new to the mailing list so i dont want to go over old ground if the text has already been discused.

paul

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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [digital@phantom.com: [vox] Test Subjects]
Date: July 29, 2002 at 9:05:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Not to leave anyone out.  Since it’s now been on all the other lists here.

Plus, also if anyone wants st1ckUrz:

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/Home/Stickers.html

Catch All:  I cannot read my mail right now.  The answer to everything is:
YES.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [vox] Test Subjects
Date: July 29, 2002 at 2:05:57 PM EDT
To: vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: vox@mindvox.com

We need ’bout 20 people — at most.  Spanning the range from 3l33t h3x0r
people, to Complete Idiots — I meant to say, those who are not uhm,
computer eXperts…

The beta is pretty much done, ’bout 500 bugs have been fixed, the mail is
no longer all going out from bruce or myself — which perhaps, is too bad.

We can’t open it, have 1,000 people all hit it at once and say, “it’s
broken!”

Message bases are, uhm, extremely full-featured, since they’ve been in
development for ’bout 7 years now.  It has all OldVox commands, plus a
buncha other stuff.  Webmail and POP is next.  Bios, Editors, Blogs,
publishing, etc, is all Right After That.

Most of this is not hard to do.  It takes some time to set it up so that
it LOOKS beautiful and automagically works with our interface, so, well,
it’ll take some time.  We will not turn Vox into Yet Another Ugly Piece of
Shit, littering up the internet.

I’m calm now.

Send male if you want to be an 3l33t b3t4 test type person/thing.

Thanks a bunch,

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 29, 2002 at 12:15:12 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

And what are these families social and economic circumstances as a matter of interest. AND as far as I’m aware, there is no PROVEN case for the genetic ‘transmission’ if u will of addiction, but it is an idea that I think Minnessotta Method treatmenters are fond of, not to mention a few wild biochemists and brain scientists

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Rhafner77@cs.com [mailto:Rhafner77@cs.com]
Sent: 29 July 2002 17:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing

In a message dated 7/29/2002 6:50:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

Breeding addicts: as far as I am aware Brett, there is no gene that

hold on there, are you really certain theres no `gene` or anything that addicts pass to their children?? I know an awful lot of families of smack-heads.
regards,  larryt.

From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 29, 2002 at 12:01:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/29/2002 6:50:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

Breeding addicts: as far as I am aware Brett, there is no gene that

hold on there, are you really certain theres no `gene` or anything that addicts pass to their children?? I know an awful lot of families of smack-heads.
regards,  larryt.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 29, 2002 at 9:47:56 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>PS  I’m an addict of about 20 years and my partner for way longer than me.  My daughter is now 21, a really good person working with children and doing very well in life.  She has seen a lot of bad things with our addicition and there has been a lot of guilt with the situation but she has also had loads of love and attention and honest discussions when old enough to do so, and seen what drugs can do to people.  It will probably be one thing she will not do with her life.  I know we love our daughter to bits and she loves us.  What can be so wrong with that???   We all make mistakes but I thought the idea of life was to learn from them and go forwards .     Allison<

THIS is what I was waiting to see posted. Beautiful Allison. Great points.
Of course, we aren’t talking about FORCED sterlization, but still, seems more than a bit extreme, even when voluntary, when the stated reason money is availible for said sterlization is over certain drugs use.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Alison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing

Thanks to Preston for putting words to so many thoughts.  I would like to know why its OK to focus on drug addicts for sterialisation etc.  Why not go a few steps forward and include alcoholics, mothers on pharmacy medications, athletes on steroids, women with depression or other mental conditions,  or perhaps any other people who are judged incompetent to have children, but by whose decision.??  Would be interesting to know who is going to be the judge and jury of the decision making in this sort of process.   Perhaps those in favour of this idea could explain to me how they think it would work.
PS  I’m an addict of about 20 years and my partner for way longer than me.  My daughter is now 21, a really good person working with children and doing very well in life.  She has seen a lot of bad things with our addicition and there has been a lot of guilt with the situation but she has also had loads of love and attention and honest discussions when old enough to do so, and seen what drugs can do to people.  It will probably be one thing she will not do with her life.  I know we love our daughter to bits and she loves us.  What can be so wrong with that???   We all make mistakes but I thought the idea of life was to learn from them and go forwards .     Allison
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Monday, 29 July 2002 01:32
Subject: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing

and my prior comments still stand, even though I do find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very recently, shaking my head when I see news clips of all these starving people around the world, people surrounded by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they thinking?
But personally, I’d rather help feed them and give them health care, (and myself too) than pay to subsidize Bush and friends’ drilling for oil, or building death machines, or killing off the parts of the environment that we humans need to survive.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if these future moms are being herded into the sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read anything except drug lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no shortage of babies. None at all.

>> Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?
>
>The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
>to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
>for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
>pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
>This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
>should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
>seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
>birth control.
>
>> When does simple drug use become reason enough to
>> sterilize mothers?
>
>I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
>no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
>personally think there are cases where a person should
>be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
>year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
>another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
>all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
>drug addiction and you are pregnant again…). But
>that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it like
>MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn’t be
>allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
>for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a problem
>with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
>specific birth control methods as some violation of
>morality.
>
>
>Brett

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 29, 2002 at 9:53:28 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Breeding addicts: as far as I am aware Brett, there is no gene that
indubitable causes drug/opiate addiction. But there is ample evidence that
people who se lives are socially, emotionally, economically and other which
ways resort to drugs, in order to fill the void/hole inside.
Brett, perhaps, u didn’t mean to use that expression, but if you did, can u
say exactly what u mean? Breeding addicts??

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 28 July 2002 17:59
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
and my prior comments still stand, even though I do
find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very recently,
shaking my head when I see news clips of all these
starving people around the world, people surrounded
by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they
thinking?
But personally, I’d rather help feed them and give
them health care, (and myself too) than pay to

But birth control isn’t health care??? The only
choices are birth control vs drilling for oil,
building death machines and killing the environment???

Problem with your theory (IMO) is more people use more
fuel/food/land/resources and strain the environment.
There is a simple fact we all live on the same petri
dish called earth, there is only so much to go around
and YES the death machines/killing environment (yadda,
yadda, yadda) need to stop. It might be a good idea to
help with the limited resources (not that they should
be limited, just that they are) to not breed new
addicts and focus those resources on the adults and
little ones that we already have.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT KILLING ANYONE (re the CRACK
rebate), no killing and you keep going off on KILLING
and sterilization as if it is being forced. You seem
to want to limit the choices addicts have in their
lives because of your beliefs – if someone wants an
abortion, birth control or sterilization, that is
their choice and CRACK is helping them with choices,
they are NOT making choices for the addict.

subsidize Bush and friends’ drilling for oil, or
building death machines, or killing off the parts of
the environment that we humans need to survive.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original
statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if
these future moms are being herded into the
sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had
their share of drug problems I don’t have any
interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read
anything except drug lists there is this over
population problem with the world, there is no
shortage of babies. None at all.

Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is
not?

The person getting sterilized, seems very
reasonable
to me. And for the money that they are likely to
use
for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
pay-check or any other check they get their hands
on.
This is not forced sterilization, it is $200
(rebate)
should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and
you
seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long
term
birth control.

When does simple drug use become reason enough
to
sterilize mothers?

I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such
thing,
no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
personally think there are cases where a person
should
be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS
17
year old but you had a child at 12, another at
14,
another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried,
had
all 4 children taken away because of abuse and
your
drug addiction and you are pregnant again…).
But
that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it
like
MOM made her decisions about her life and
shouldn’t be
allowed (at some point) to have her children
suffer
for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a
problem
with someone taking the choice to be sterilized
or use
specific birth control methods as some violation
of
morality.

Brett

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name?

http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 29, 2002 at 9:47:12 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yES bRETT, if THEY CHOOSE IT. I think a point PK made was that these women
are being offered a sizeable sum to agree to it, which is kinda immoral
given what we know about the craving needs of aCTIVE ADDICTS, NO?  In other
words, how much CHOICE is she making

When I was a21 yr old woman, strung-out to F, I suddenly found myself on the
street with the most monstrous man, giving a hand job for enough money to
buy a bag of dope. Is that the kind of CHOICE u r referring to?

Wouldn’t a better way to deal with this to persuade a young woman into some
kind of treatment by providing low-threshold care, thereby having the
opportunity to persuade her against having more kids given the state of her
health etc?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: ascending@hushmail.com [mailto:ascending@hushmail.com]
Sent: 28 July 2002 07:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more
comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if these future moms are
being herded into the sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems
I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being taken
care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids
and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess
that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my
tax dollars paying for all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read anything except drug
lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no
shortage of babies. None at all.

Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?

The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
birth control.

When does simple drug use become reason enough to
sterilize mothers?

I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
personally think there are cases where a person should
be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
drug addiction and you are pregnant again…). But
that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it like
MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn’t be
allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a problem
with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
specific birth control methods as some violation of
morality.

Brett

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name?
http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople

From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: August 29, 2002 at 6:45:32 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks to Preston for putting words to so many thoughts.  I would like to know why its OK to focus on drug addicts for sterialisation etc.  Why not go a few steps forward and include alcoholics, mothers on pharmacy medications, athletes on steroids, women with depression or other mental conditions,  or perhaps any other people who are judged incompetent to have children, but by whose decision.??  Would be interesting to know who is going to be the judge and jury of the decision making in this sort of process.   Perhaps those in favour of this idea could explain to me how they think it would work.
PS  I’m an addict of about 20 years and my partner for way longer than me.  My daughter is now 21, a really good person working with children and doing very well in life.  She has seen a lot of bad things with our addicition and there has been a lot of guilt with the situation but she has also had loads of love and attention and honest discussions when old enough to do so, and seen what drugs can do to people.  It will probably be one thing she will not do with her life.  I know we love our daughter to bits and she loves us.  What can be so wrong with that???   We all make mistakes but I thought the idea of life was to learn from them and go forwards .     Allison
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Monday, 29 July 2002 01:32
Subject: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing

and my prior comments still stand, even though I do find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very recently, shaking my head when I see news clips of all these starving people around the world, people surrounded by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they thinking?
But personally, I’d rather help feed them and give them health care, (and myself too) than pay to subsidize Bush and friends’ drilling for oil, or building death machines, or killing off the parts of the environment that we humans need to survive.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if these future moms are being herded into the sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read anything except drug lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no shortage of babies. None at all.

>> Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?
>
>The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
>to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
>for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
>pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
>This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
>should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
>seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
>birth control.
>
>> When does simple drug use become reason enough to
>> sterilize mothers?
>
>I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
>no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
>personally think there are cases where a person should
>be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
>year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
>another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
>all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
>drug addiction and you are pregnant again…). But
>that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it like
>MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn’t be
>allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
>for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a problem
>with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
>specific birth control methods as some violation of
>morality.
>
>
>Brett

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople

From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Date: August 29, 2002 at 6:18:03 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This might be a bit out of order & nought to do with ibogaine.  Your comments re Yahoo made me write.  I personally think Yahoo need to sort out their shit.  They don’t sound very efficient >from what your saying and I also know that they are responsible for a lot of pornographic and especially child pornography sites on their network which really gets up my nose.
It seems that even if you make a written complaint they don’t bother too much about the material on their network.  Not a good recommendation I reckon… Allison
—–Original Message—–
From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Monday, 29 July 2002 06:25
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I pay Yahoo $20 a year for storage, and I am about to go find another service.  Everytime I try to send emails I am told that my account is inaccessible, etc.  I have decided they are busy reading our mail for the feds! (Paranoid, I know, but really!).  It truly sucks, and there ya have it!  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 28, 2002 at 7:14:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m off this thread.

Brett
— Joshua Tinnin <jtinnin@pacbell.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
and my prior comments still stand, even though I
do
find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very
recently,
shaking my head when I see news clips of all
these
starving people around the world, people
surrounded
by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they
thinking?
But personally, I’d rather help feed them and
give
them health care, (and myself too) than pay to

But birth control isn’t health care??? The only
choices are birth control vs drilling for oil,
building death machines and killing the
environment???

Problem with your theory (IMO) is more people use
more
fuel/food/land/resources and strain the
environment.
There is a simple fact we all live on the same
petri
dish called earth, there is only so much to go
around
and YES the death machines/killing environment
(yadda,
yadda, yadda) need to stop. It might be a good
idea to
help with the limited resources (not that they
should
be limited, just that they are) to not breed new
addicts and focus those resources on the adults
and
little ones that we already have.

Well, with that in mind, let’s just round up all the
addicts and sterilize
every one of them.

BTW, starting with 2 people and assuming a 2% annual
growth rate over only a
1,500 year period the population of the planet shuld
be almost 16 billion.
The truth is that the fertility rate of men in the
US has dropped
dramatically since the 1950s. This petri dish is
rather like a fishbowl – we
only reproduce to the point of sustainability. The
“sky is falling”
population explosion theory is a fallacy. Moreover,
people in the US and
other highly developed nations have *far less*
children per capita than in
less developed nations. Barring growth due to
immigration, the US might even
soon begin to see a decline in population growth
very soon. Most predictions
allow about 9 billion people by 2050. That would
mean that the curve of the
hyperbola of population is starting to apex and from
there, fall.

Compassion must outweigh the “one less addict” or
“one less child of an
addict” thinking. It’s a half step away from
outright killing addicts.

Ridding the US of potential children of crack
addicted mothers is a *very*
small drop in the bucket. Sterilization for $200
seems to be an extreme way
to accomplish this goal.

Smart growth and fostering sustainability would
alleviate far more problems
due to limited resources than sterilizing
crack-addicted mothers. Finally
realizing and accepting our huge consumption rate in
the US and doing
something to change *that* will mean much, much more
than the CRACK program
could ever hope to accomplish, and nobody would have
to be sterilized.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT KILLING ANYONE (re the
CRACK
rebate), no killing and you keep going off on
KILLING
and sterilization as if it is being forced. You
seem
to want to limit the choices addicts have in their
lives because of your beliefs – if someone wants
an
abortion, birth control or sterilization, that is
their choice and CRACK is helping them with
choices,
they are NOT making choices for the addict.

Offering them $200 is ridiculous. How about a home
and a recovery program in
exchange? $200 is a carrot.

– jt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 28, 2002 at 3:05:07 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

never said I wanted to limit anyone’s choices.
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> and my prior comments still stand, even though I do
> find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very recently,
> shaking my head when I see news clips of all these
> starving people around the world, people surrounded
> by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they
> thinking?
> But personally, I’d rather help feed them and give
> them health care, (and myself too) than pay to

But birth control isn’t health care??? The only
choices are birth control vs drilling for oil,
building death machines and killing the environment???

Problem with your theory (IMO) is more people use more
fuel/food/land/resources and strain the environment.
There is a simple fact we all live on the same petri
dish called earth, there is only so much to go around
and YES the death machines/killing environment (yadda,
yadda, yadda) need to stop. It might be a good idea to
help with the limited resources (not that they should
be limited, just that they are) to not breed new
addicts and focus those resources on the adults and
little ones that we already have.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT KILLING ANYONE (re the CRACK
rebate), no killing and you keep going off on KILLING
and sterilization as if it is being forced. You seem
to want to limit the choices addicts have in their
lives because of your beliefs – if someone wants an
abortion, birth control or sterilization, that is
their choice and CRACK is helping them with choices,
they are NOT making choices for the addict.

> subsidize Bush and friends’ drilling for oil, or
> building death machines, or killing off the parts of
> the environment that we humans need to survive.
> Peace,
> Preston
>   —– Original Message —–
>   From: ascending@hushmail.com
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>   Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
>   Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original
> statement and more comments
>
>
>
>
>
>   I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if
> these future moms are being herded into the
> sterilization pens.
>
>   As somebody who works for a living and has had
> their share of drug problems I don’t have any
> interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
> taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
> that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
> and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
> mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
> kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
> all that.
>
>   Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read
> anything except drug lists there is this over
> population problem with the world, there is no
> shortage of babies. None at all.
>
>   >> Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is
> not?
>   >
>   >The person getting sterilized, seems very
> reasonable
>   >to me. And for the money that they are likely to
> use
>   >for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
>   >pay-check or any other check they get their hands
> on.
>   >This is not forced sterilization, it is $200
> (rebate)
>   >should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and
> you
>   >seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long
> term
>   >birth control.
>   >
>   >> When does simple drug use become reason enough
> to
>   >> sterilize mothers?
>   >
>   >I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such
> thing,
>   >no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
>   >personally think there are cases where a person
> should
>   >be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS
> 17
>   >year old but you had a child at 12, another at
> 14,
>   >another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried,
> had
>   >all 4 children taken away because of abuse and
> your
>   >drug addiction and you are pregnant again…).
> But
>   >that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it
> like
>   >MOM made her decisions about her life and
> shouldn’t be
>   >allowed (at some point) to have her children
> suffer
>   >for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a
> problem
>   >with someone taking the choice to be sterilized
> or use
>   >specific birth control methods as some violation
> of
>   >morality.
>   >
>   >
>   >Brett
>
>
>   Communicate in total privacy.
>   Get your free encrypted email at
> https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
>
>   Looking for a good deal on a domain name?
>
http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] health care for all or military killing machines…hmmm
Date: July 28, 2002 at 3:04:08 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brett,
My pissed-offedness was derived >from the “If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that” comment. And it’s fair enough actually, I suppose we should get to choose what our taxes are spent on, (except who’d pay for things like roads nstuff?). My ire is from hearing said view expressed over and over in the US, but rarely do I hear the same kind of comments about our taxes subsidizing the War machines. That’s all.
Birth control is great btw. And if some mother want to choose to sterilize themselves for $200 bucks after sitting in a rooms for hours, as Patrick pointed out is probably not going to be undertaken by many junkies anyway, more power to them. I wonder if the same group would be willing to give that same $200 bucks to the women who could then buy food for the kids they already have.
Peace
Preston
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] health care for all or military killing machines…hmmm

Preston  “!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, I’m actually a bit pissed off at this post. I
can’t stand this attitude. Where does this come from?
When did people become so dumbed down and willing to
pay for death, but not life?”

NO ONE was talking about killing anyone, not even an
abortion. What is this, we are going to mourn for
every sperm and egg that “got spilt” and never made a
baby, better put those people who use condoms in jail.
The issue was a rebate of sorts for those who wished
to get steralized OR (and some keep ignoring this)
long term birth control – you keep focusing on DEATH,
lost opportunities, the what-ifs (baby) that never
happened (not even a fertilized egg). It is (IMO) not
like someone killed a child, geez, what “killing” are
you talking about (NONE IMO). There is a difference
between being fruitful and multiplying and growing
like weeds.

No one is talking about forcing anyone into anything
or killing anything. Doesn’t it come down to some
religious belief that birth control is bad and this is
birth control? So, (specifically talking about the
CRACK $200 rebate for LT birth control/sterilization)
what death is it you are talking about that is being
offered – and yes, the Gov’t has their military
killing machines, the US imprisons more people than
any other country per capita and a zillion other
issues – those are OTHER ISSUES (IMO) and Yes there
should be treatment that is far better than it is
today, the DRUG wars are bad and there are a thousand
evils out there – we are talking about one tiny issue
and without solving all the other problems with drug
abuse, this is CRACK’s issue that they choose to deal
with, just like you or anyone else has their causes.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >As somebody who works for a living and has had
> their share of drug problems I don’t have any
> interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
> taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
> that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
> and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
> mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
> kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
> all that. <
>
> This is brilliant (stupidity), and as a former hard
> core drug abuser and works very hard for a living,
> I’m very glad you posted this opinion here.
> Out of curiosity, do you like, (or not resent), your
> tax dollars going to build nifty neato military
> killing machines? How about bombs dropped on
> innocent Afghans? Do support the outrageous military
> spending by the US, and the outrageous amounts
> already being spent to lock up the druggies in the
> name of a War on Drugs? If you are, but aren’t
> willing to help pay for health costs of drug addicts
> and other fellow Americans, I am stumped at this
> attitude.
>     Where does the attitude come from that “we don’t
> want to pay for druggies’ health costs” when that is
> already EXACTLY WHAT WE’RE DOING NOW by locking them
> all up, THEN paying their health costs. Why add that
> imprisonment cost to the total? Why is it better to
> pay taxes for killing people and imprisoning them,
> (and propping up foreign corrupt government growing
> drugs), but not for helping American citizens, real
> honest to goodness people, even druggies who “don’t
> have enough common sense to know” they’re a mess to
> use your phrase.
>     This simply strikes me as blindly following
> along behind prohibition hatered, ignorance, and
> dogma. Those Dirty Druggies (of whom you were one
> once apparently) don’t deserve my help….but by god
> we need a STRONG MILITARY so we can go in and prop
> up some more drug producing tin-pot didctators
> around the world so they can produce tons of drugs
> so the DEA can ship them across our borders by the
> TON in so-called “controlled” shippments they
> themselves cannot account for tons of RIGHT NOW!
>     Of course, I could be wrong and this might not
> be your position at all, as you haven’t actually
> mentioned the military spending, or for that matter,
> the incredibley shoddy accounting the government
> actually does to keep track of your, and my, taxes.
>     But I hear and read this king of thinking all
> the time in the US, and it drives me CRAZY! Who are
> these heartless people who are silent about the
> trillions spent by our military for NOTHING but
> killing, death, and propping up drug producing
> cartels, (KLA, Northern Alliance, Vladamir
> Montesinos to name but a few usual US-allies), but
> can’t find it in their hearts to pay taxes towards a
> universal health care system, as that would be
> SOCIALISM.
>     BAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>     God, I’m actually a bit pissed off at this post.
> I can’t stand this attitude. Where does this come
> from? When did people become so dumbed down and
> willing to pay for death, but not life?
> Peace,
> Preston
>
>
>   —– Original Message —–
>   From: ascending@hushmail.com
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>   Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
>   Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original
> statement and more comments
>
>
>
>
>
>   I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if
> these future moms are being herded into the
> sterilization pens.
>
>   As somebody who works for a living and has had
> their share of drug problems I don’t have any
> interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
> taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
> that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
> and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
> mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
> kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
> all that.
>
>   Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read
> anything except drug lists there is this over
> population problem with the world, there is no
> shortage of babies. None at all.
>
>   >> Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is
> not?
>   >
>   >The person getting sterilized, seems very
> reasonable
>   >to me. And for the money that they are likely to
> use
>   >for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
>   >pay-check or any other check they get their hands
> on.
>   >This is not forced sterilization, it is $200
> (rebate)
>   >should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and
> you
>   >seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long
> term
>   >birth control.
>   >
>   >> When does simple drug use become reason enough
> to
>   >> sterilize mothers?
>   >
>   >I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such
> thing,
>   >no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
>   >personally think there are cases where a person
> should
>   >be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS
> 17
>   >year old but you had a child at 12, another at
> 14,
>   >another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried,
> had
>   >all 4 children taken away because of abuse and
> your
>   >drug addiction and you are pregnant again…).
> But
>   >that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it
> like
>   >MOM made her decisions about her life and
> shouldn’t be
>   >allowed (at some point) to have her children
> suffer
>   >for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a
> problem
>   >with someone taking the choice to be sterilized
> or use
>   >specific birth control methods as some violation
> of
>   >morality.
>   >
>   >
>   >Brett
>
>
>   Communicate in total privacy.
>   Get your free encrypted email at
> https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
>
>   Looking for a good deal on a domain name?
>
http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Date: July 28, 2002 at 2:25:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I pay Yahoo $20 a year for storage, and I am about to go find another service.  Everytime I try to send emails I am told that my account is inaccessible, etc.  I have decided they are busy reading our mail for the feds! (Paranoid, I know, but really!).  It truly sucks, and there ya have it!  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better

From: Joshua Tinnin <jtinnin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 28, 2002 at 1:23:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
and my prior comments still stand, even though I do
find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very recently,
shaking my head when I see news clips of all these
starving people around the world, people surrounded
by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they
thinking?
But personally, I’d rather help feed them and give
them health care, (and myself too) than pay to

But birth control isn’t health care??? The only
choices are birth control vs drilling for oil,
building death machines and killing the environment???

Problem with your theory (IMO) is more people use more
fuel/food/land/resources and strain the environment.
There is a simple fact we all live on the same petri
dish called earth, there is only so much to go around
and YES the death machines/killing environment (yadda,
yadda, yadda) need to stop. It might be a good idea to
help with the limited resources (not that they should
be limited, just that they are) to not breed new
addicts and focus those resources on the adults and
little ones that we already have.

Well, with that in mind, let’s just round up all the addicts and sterilize
every one of them.

BTW, starting with 2 people and assuming a 2% annual growth rate over only a
1,500 year period the population of the planet shuld be almost 16 billion.
The truth is that the fertility rate of men in the US has dropped
dramatically since the 1950s. This petri dish is rather like a fishbowl – we
only reproduce to the point of sustainability. The “sky is falling”
population explosion theory is a fallacy. Moreover, people in the US and
other highly developed nations have *far less* children per capita than in
less developed nations. Barring growth due to immigration, the US might even
soon begin to see a decline in population growth very soon. Most predictions
allow about 9 billion people by 2050. That would mean that the curve of the
hyperbola of population is starting to apex and from there, fall.

Compassion must outweigh the “one less addict” or “one less child of an
addict” thinking. It’s a half step away from outright killing addicts.

Ridding the US of potential children of crack addicted mothers is a *very*
small drop in the bucket. Sterilization for $200 seems to be an extreme way
to accomplish this goal.

Smart growth and fostering sustainability would alleviate far more problems
due to limited resources than sterilizing crack-addicted mothers. Finally
realizing and accepting our huge consumption rate in the US and doing
something to change *that* will mean much, much more than the CRACK program
could ever hope to accomplish, and nobody would have to be sterilized.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT KILLING ANYONE (re the CRACK
rebate), no killing and you keep going off on KILLING
and sterilization as if it is being forced. You seem
to want to limit the choices addicts have in their
lives because of your beliefs – if someone wants an
abortion, birth control or sterilization, that is
their choice and CRACK is helping them with choices,
they are NOT making choices for the addict.

Offering them $200 is ridiculous. How about a home and a recovery program in
exchange? $200 is a carrot.

– jt

From: Joshua Tinnin <jtinnin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] health care for all or military killing machines…hmmm
Date: July 28, 2002 at 1:09:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

$200 is pathetic and insulting. It’s, what, less than one day’s worth of
drugs for many addicts? How can one trade a lifetime of sterility for $200?
That’s a week’s rent in a residential hotel in the bad part of town. It’s
been proven that the CIA moves addictive drugs into this country, and even
profits by it. This CRACK program smacks of eugenics with a stick and carrot
dangled in front of the undesirables for incentive not to reproduce ever
again. It does *nothing* to address the real problem of addiction – it
doesn’t even attempt to deal with the real problems. It’s a cry, once again,
for “the children.” The crack baby propaganda, btw, was just that –
propaganda. It was fabricated.

Yes, addicts, like everyone else, must be held responsible for their
decisions. So, in a sense, it can be said that it is the addict’s decision
to get sterilized for the small amount of fast cash. But how wise is that
decision when made by an active crack addict, one which will affect that
person for the rest of their lives? How will that $200 be seen later by a
recovering addict who can no longer have children? Do you think there will
be regret? Can you envision the lawsuits to come years later?

Will this program be available for alcoholics or smokers? How many children
of alcoholics are affected adversely compared to those with parents addicted
to crack? How severe are birth defects caused by those substances?

More than 140,000 people die in the US every year due to alcohol. How many
die due to crack cocaine? Take a guess …

Not to dwell too much on conspiracy theory, but I wouldn’t be at all
surprised if, 30 years from now, this program is revealed to be an
intelligence operation in eugenics. If MKULTRA, COINTELPRO, Project
MOCKINGBIRD, etc., revealed anything, it’s that the government has no moral
scruples whatsoever when dealing with covert operations.

However, to the program’s credit, it does offer cash (though a smaller
amount) to women who provide proof that they are using birth control.
Norplant is offered as one method, with a $100 incentive.

This is harm reduction to the wrong extreme, if anything.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Preston  “!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, I’m actually a bit pissed off at this post. I
can’t stand this attitude. Where does this come from?
When did people become so dumbed down and willing to
pay for death, but not life?”

NO ONE was talking about killing anyone, not even an
abortion. What is this, we are going to mourn for
every sperm and egg that “got spilt” and never made a
baby, better put those people who use condoms in jail.
The issue was a rebate of sorts for those who wished
to get steralized OR (and some keep ignoring this)
long term birth control – you keep focusing on DEATH,
lost opportunities, the what-ifs (baby) that never
happened (not even a fertilized egg). It is (IMO) not
like someone killed a child, geez, what “killing” are
you talking about (NONE IMO). There is a difference
between being fruitful and multiplying and growing
like weeds.

No one is talking about forcing anyone into anything
or killing anything. Doesn’t it come down to some
religious belief that birth control is bad and this is
birth control? So, (specifically talking about the
CRACK $200 rebate for LT birth control/sterilization)
what death is it you are talking about that is being
offered – and yes, the Gov’t has their military
killing machines, the US imprisons more people than
any other country per capita and a zillion other
issues – those are OTHER ISSUES (IMO) and Yes there
should be treatment that is far better than it is
today, the DRUG wars are bad and there are a thousand
evils out there – we are talking about one tiny issue
and without solving all the other problems with drug
abuse, this is CRACK’s issue that they choose to deal
with, just like you or anyone else has their causes.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
As somebody who works for a living and has had
their share of drug problems I don’t have any
interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
all that. <

This is brilliant (stupidity), and as a former hard
core drug abuser and works very hard for a living,
I’m very glad you posted this opinion here.
Out of curiosity, do you like, (or not resent), your
tax dollars going to build nifty neato military
killing machines? How about bombs dropped on
innocent Afghans? Do support the outrageous military
spending by the US, and the outrageous amounts
already being spent to lock up the druggies in the
name of a War on Drugs? If you are, but aren’t
willing to help pay for health costs of drug addicts
and other fellow Americans, I am stumped at this
attitude.
Where does the attitude come from that “we don’t
want to pay for druggies’ health costs” when that is
already EXACTLY WHAT WE’RE DOING NOW by locking them
all up, THEN paying their health costs. Why add that
imprisonment cost to the total? Why is it better to
pay taxes for killing people and imprisoning them,
(and propping up foreign corrupt government growing
drugs), but not for helping American citizens, real
honest to goodness people, even druggies who “don’t
have enough common sense to know” they’re a mess to
use your phrase.
This simply strikes me as blindly following
along behind prohibition hatered, ignorance, and
dogma. Those Dirty Druggies (of whom you were one
once apparently) don’t deserve my help….but by god
we need a STRONG MILITARY so we can go in and prop
up some more drug producing tin-pot didctators
around the world so they can produce tons of drugs
so the DEA can ship them across our borders by the
TON in so-called “controlled” shippments they
themselves cannot account for tons of RIGHT NOW!
Of course, I could be wrong and this might not
be your position at all, as you haven’t actually
mentioned the military spending, or for that matter,
the incredibley shoddy accounting the government
actually does to keep track of your, and my, taxes.
But I hear and read this king of thinking all
the time in the US, and it drives me CRAZY! Who are
these heartless people who are silent about the
trillions spent by our military for NOTHING but
killing, death, and propping up drug producing
cartels, (KLA, Northern Alliance, Vladamir
Montesinos to name but a few usual US-allies), but
can’t find it in their hearts to pay taxes towards a
universal health care system, as that would be
SOCIALISM.
BAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, I’m actually a bit pissed off at this post.
I can’t stand this attitude. Where does this come
from? When did people become so dumbed down and
willing to pay for death, but not life?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original
statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if
these future moms are being herded into the
sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had
their share of drug problems I don’t have any
interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read
anything except drug lists there is this over
population problem with the world, there is no
shortage of babies. None at all.

Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is
not?

The person getting sterilized, seems very
reasonable
to me. And for the money that they are likely to
use
for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
pay-check or any other check they get their hands
on.
This is not forced sterilization, it is $200
(rebate)
should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and
you
seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long
term
birth control.

When does simple drug use become reason enough
to
sterilize mothers?

I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such
thing,
no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
personally think there are cases where a person
should
be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS
17
year old but you had a child at 12, another at
14,
another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried,
had
all 4 children taken away because of abuse and
your
drug addiction and you are pregnant again…).
But
that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it
like
MOM made her decisions about her life and
shouldn’t be
allowed (at some point) to have her children
suffer
for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a
problem
with someone taking the choice to be sterilized
or use
specific birth control methods as some violation
of
morality.

Brett

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 28, 2002 at 12:59:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
and my prior comments still stand, even though I do
find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very recently,
shaking my head when I see news clips of all these
starving people around the world, people surrounded
by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they
thinking?
But personally, I’d rather help feed them and give
them health care, (and myself too) than pay to

But birth control isn’t health care??? The only
choices are birth control vs drilling for oil,
building death machines and killing the environment???

Problem with your theory (IMO) is more people use more
fuel/food/land/resources and strain the environment.
There is a simple fact we all live on the same petri
dish called earth, there is only so much to go around
and YES the death machines/killing environment (yadda,
yadda, yadda) need to stop. It might be a good idea to
help with the limited resources (not that they should
be limited, just that they are) to not breed new
addicts and focus those resources on the adults and
little ones that we already have.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT KILLING ANYONE (re the CRACK
rebate), no killing and you keep going off on KILLING
and sterilization as if it is being forced. You seem
to want to limit the choices addicts have in their
lives because of your beliefs – if someone wants an
abortion, birth control or sterilization, that is
their choice and CRACK is helping them with choices,
they are NOT making choices for the addict.

subsidize Bush and friends’ drilling for oil, or
building death machines, or killing off the parts of
the environment that we humans need to survive.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original
statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if
these future moms are being herded into the
sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had
their share of drug problems I don’t have any
interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read
anything except drug lists there is this over
population problem with the world, there is no
shortage of babies. None at all.

Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is
not?

The person getting sterilized, seems very
reasonable
to me. And for the money that they are likely to
use
for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
pay-check or any other check they get their hands
on.
This is not forced sterilization, it is $200
(rebate)
should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and
you
seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long
term
birth control.

When does simple drug use become reason enough
to
sterilize mothers?

I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such
thing,
no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
personally think there are cases where a person
should
be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS
17
year old but you had a child at 12, another at
14,
another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried,
had
all 4 children taken away because of abuse and
your
drug addiction and you are pregnant again…).
But
that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it
like
MOM made her decisions about her life and
shouldn’t be
allowed (at some point) to have her children
suffer
for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a
problem
with someone taking the choice to be sterilized
or use
specific birth control methods as some violation
of
morality.

Brett

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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] health care for all or military killing machines…hmmm
Date: July 28, 2002 at 12:40:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston  “!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, I’m actually a bit pissed off at this post. I
can’t stand this attitude. Where does this come from?
When did people become so dumbed down and willing to
pay for death, but not life?”

NO ONE was talking about killing anyone, not even an
abortion. What is this, we are going to mourn for
every sperm and egg that “got spilt” and never made a
baby, better put those people who use condoms in jail.
The issue was a rebate of sorts for those who wished
to get steralized OR (and some keep ignoring this)
long term birth control – you keep focusing on DEATH,
lost opportunities, the what-ifs (baby) that never
happened (not even a fertilized egg). It is (IMO) not
like someone killed a child, geez, what “killing” are
you talking about (NONE IMO). There is a difference
between being fruitful and multiplying and growing
like weeds.

No one is talking about forcing anyone into anything
or killing anything. Doesn’t it come down to some
religious belief that birth control is bad and this is
birth control? So, (specifically talking about the
CRACK $200 rebate for LT birth control/sterilization)
what death is it you are talking about that is being
offered – and yes, the Gov’t has their military
killing machines, the US imprisons more people than
any other country per capita and a zillion other
issues – those are OTHER ISSUES (IMO) and Yes there
should be treatment that is far better than it is
today, the DRUG wars are bad and there are a thousand
evils out there – we are talking about one tiny issue
and without solving all the other problems with drug
abuse, this is CRACK’s issue that they choose to deal
with, just like you or anyone else has their causes.

Brett

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
As somebody who works for a living and has had
their share of drug problems I don’t have any
interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
all that. <

This is brilliant (stupidity), and as a former hard
core drug abuser and works very hard for a living,
I’m very glad you posted this opinion here.
Out of curiosity, do you like, (or not resent), your
tax dollars going to build nifty neato military
killing machines? How about bombs dropped on
innocent Afghans? Do support the outrageous military
spending by the US, and the outrageous amounts
already being spent to lock up the druggies in the
name of a War on Drugs? If you are, but aren’t
willing to help pay for health costs of drug addicts
and other fellow Americans, I am stumped at this
attitude.
Where does the attitude come from that “we don’t
want to pay for druggies’ health costs” when that is
already EXACTLY WHAT WE’RE DOING NOW by locking them
all up, THEN paying their health costs. Why add that
imprisonment cost to the total? Why is it better to
pay taxes for killing people and imprisoning them,
(and propping up foreign corrupt government growing
drugs), but not for helping American citizens, real
honest to goodness people, even druggies who “don’t
have enough common sense to know” they’re a mess to
use your phrase.
This simply strikes me as blindly following
along behind prohibition hatered, ignorance, and
dogma. Those Dirty Druggies (of whom you were one
once apparently) don’t deserve my help….but by god
we need a STRONG MILITARY so we can go in and prop
up some more drug producing tin-pot didctators
around the world so they can produce tons of drugs
so the DEA can ship them across our borders by the
TON in so-called “controlled” shippments they
themselves cannot account for tons of RIGHT NOW!
Of course, I could be wrong and this might not
be your position at all, as you haven’t actually
mentioned the military spending, or for that matter,
the incredibley shoddy accounting the government
actually does to keep track of your, and my, taxes.
But I hear and read this king of thinking all
the time in the US, and it drives me CRAZY! Who are
these heartless people who are silent about the
trillions spent by our military for NOTHING but
killing, death, and propping up drug producing
cartels, (KLA, Northern Alliance, Vladamir
Montesinos to name but a few usual US-allies), but
can’t find it in their hearts to pay taxes towards a
universal health care system, as that would be
SOCIALISM.
BAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, I’m actually a bit pissed off at this post.
I can’t stand this attitude. Where does this come
from? When did people become so dumbed down and
willing to pay for death, but not life?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original
statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if
these future moms are being herded into the
sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had
their share of drug problems I don’t have any
interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being
taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent
that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives
and don’t have enough common sense to know your a
mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the
kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for
all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read
anything except drug lists there is this over
population problem with the world, there is no
shortage of babies. None at all.

Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is
not?

The person getting sterilized, seems very
reasonable
to me. And for the money that they are likely to
use
for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
pay-check or any other check they get their hands
on.
This is not forced sterilization, it is $200
(rebate)
should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and
you
seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long
term
birth control.

When does simple drug use become reason enough
to
sterilize mothers?

I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such
thing,
no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
personally think there are cases where a person
should
be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS
17
year old but you had a child at 12, another at
14,
another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried,
had
all 4 children taken away because of abuse and
your
drug addiction and you are pregnant again…).
But
that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it
like
MOM made her decisions about her life and
shouldn’t be
allowed (at some point) to have her children
suffer
for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a
problem
with someone taking the choice to be sterilized
or use
specific birth control methods as some violation
of
morality.

Brett

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https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: “Demir” <ddemir@telus.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] find it
Date: July 28, 2002 at 11:47:19 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The UK supplier for ibogaine hcl is no longer filling orders at this time.
You can order the herb extract 5X from Indra in Denmark . It costs about
$120 USD for 4 grams which will get you started . I’ve got some on order
now. Hope this helps. 3rd place  World Cup finish for the boys from
Galatasaray- jolly good!
—– Original Message —–
From: <stonedhead@popmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 7:37 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] find it

i need some help on finding some ibogaine somewhere for a fair price and
whom i can trust. thanks from turkey.

………………………………
Get your own free email account from
http://www.popmail.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine source to mexico
Date: July 28, 2002 at 10:26:19 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I live in southern california, I’ve read the list of ibogaine
sources on co.uk and wanted to know if anyone has experience with
the people who are selling it. I want to buy 5-10 grams of HCL for
my personal use, I can easily drive across the border and have
places where I could receive it.

I would do it in Mexico of course and not bring it into California.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

MZ

The extract (Indra) may be safer.

Dana/cnw

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] more on helping or killing
Date: July 28, 2002 at 9:24:02 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and my prior comments still stand, even though I do find myself, as I believe I’ve noted very recently, shaking my head when I see news clips of all these starving people around the world, people surrounded by 2, 5, 25 children, all theirs. What are they thinking?
But personally, I’d rather help feed them and give them health care, (and myself too) than pay to subsidize Bush and friends’ drilling for oil, or building death machines, or killing off the parts of the environment that we humans need to survive.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if these future moms are being herded into the sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read anything except drug lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no shortage of babies. None at all.

>> Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?
>
>The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
>to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
>for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
>pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
>This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
>should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
>seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
>birth control.
>
>> When does simple drug use become reason enough to
>> sterilize mothers?
>
>I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
>no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
>personally think there are cases where a person should
>be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
>year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
>another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
>all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
>drug addiction and you are pregnant again…). But
>that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it like
>MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn’t be
>allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
>for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a problem
>with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
>specific birth control methods as some violation of
>morality.
>
>
>Brett

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] health care for all or military killing machines…hmmm
Date: July 28, 2002 at 8:55:19 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that. <

This is brilliant (stupidity), and as a former hard core drug abuser and works very hard for a living, I’m very glad you posted this opinion here.
Out of curiosity, do you like, (or not resent), your tax dollars going to build nifty neato military killing machines? How about bombs dropped on innocent Afghans? Do support the outrageous military spending by the US, and the outrageous amounts already being spent to lock up the druggies in the name of a War on Drugs? If you are, but aren’t willing to help pay for health costs of drug addicts and other fellow Americans, I am stumped at this attitude.
Where does the attitude come >from that “we don’t want to pay for druggies’ health costs” when that is already EXACTLY WHAT WE’RE DOING NOW by locking them all up, THEN paying their health costs. Why add that imprisonment cost to the total? Why is it better to pay taxes for killing people and imprisoning them, (and propping up foreign corrupt government growing drugs), but not for helping American citizens, real honest to goodness people, even druggies who “don’t have enough common sense to know” they’re a mess to use your phrase.
This simply strikes me as blindly following along behind prohibition hatered, ignorance, and dogma. Those Dirty Druggies (of whom you were one once apparently) don’t deserve my help….but by god we need a STRONG MILITARY so we can go in and prop up some more drug producing tin-pot didctators around the world so they can produce tons of drugs so the DEA can ship them across our borders by the TON in so-called “controlled” shippments they themselves cannot account for tons of RIGHT NOW!
Of course, I could be wrong and this might not be your position at all, as you haven’t actually mentioned the military spending, or for that matter, the incredibley shoddy accounting the government actually does to keep track of your, and my, taxes.
But I hear and read this king of thinking all the time in the US, and it drives me CRAZY! Who are these heartless people who are silent about the trillions spent by our military for NOTHING but killing, death, and propping up drug producing cartels, (KLA, Northern Alliance, Vladamir Montesinos to name but a few usual US-allies), but can’t find it in their hearts to pay taxes towards a universal health care system, as that would be SOCIALISM.
BAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, I’m actually a bit pissed off at this post. I can’t stand this attitude. Where does this come from? When did people become so dumbed down and willing to pay for death, but not life?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: ascending@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if these future moms are being herded into the sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read anything except drug lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no shortage of babies. None at all.

>> Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?
>
>The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
>to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
>for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
>pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
>This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
>should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
>seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
>birth control.
>
>> When does simple drug use become reason enough to
>> sterilize mothers?
>
>I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
>no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
>personally think there are cases where a person should
>be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
>year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
>another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
>all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
>drug addiction and you are pregnant again…). But
>that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it like
>MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn’t be
>allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
>for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a problem
>with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
>specific birth control methods as some violation of
>morality.
>
>
>Brett

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: July 28, 2002 at 2:22:00 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dude you are really funny and really sick. You know both already I think.

Ibogaine or not I do not see how any person who was a junkie can go to that place right after detoxing and stay off heroin. That is heroin central there is nothing there except heroin. It’s junkieland. You’re crazy.

I mean that with the highest respect, you really are. Or as Curtis would say ‘right on man, right on!’

How’s the mother love bone link coming> 😉

Hum . . .

THAILAND sez: Get The Hell Out!

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:23jmCnJPXNcC:www.bangkokpost.net/110502_News/11May2002_news06.html+tham+krabok+thailand&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I wonder if this will actually happen; possibly not, since it has been in
the perpetual process of happening since roughly the dawn of time, or 40
years ago when a few hundred hmoung arrived and started to reproduce a lot
— having not much else to do besides learn cultivation techniques for
preTty PopPies in southern Thailand, and that birth control thing not
having made a major inroads into the whole entire southeast Asia — which
by the way, prolly causes MOST of the AIDS splattered all over those
countries, NOT bangin’ up, condoms not birth control pills I meant to
say, I think, yeah that was it …  Where was I, oh yes, still in Miami,
but as I was saying, the army rolls in, LOOKS AROUND a lot, makes a Stern
Announcement in the Bangkok Post that SOME Sort of Severe Action will take
place, real soon now; and then goes back to sleep.  Since, mostly, they
all arrived in this mountain range ‘cuz there’s an ashram there, and it’d
be Bad Karma to nuke an ashram in Thailand; although it might be okay if
it were located in Utah instead for instance.  Now then, as I was saying
Will the BAD PEOPLE destroy a perfect, beautiful, happy little society for
tHe HeadLines, or will the whole entire Hmoung make their saving throw,
thus avoiding CERTAIN DOOM!?!??!?

Who can say.  But I just felt strongly ALL OF YOU should be aware of this.

It’s a bummer all of them are so fixated on Buddha, if they looked up a
lil’ further, they’d find Shiva, who would just DESTROY the whole entire
situation (inside his mind) and they could get back to resonating, bangin’
up’, or buying shiny things, depending on what vibrational range they were
in at that particular time.  They’re very mellow and accepting there,
which I appreciated a lot, I have never met any group of persons who were
so cheerfully corrupt before, it was neat, and made me feel good about
myself, because everything was always all-good, unlike Mexico, which is
mostly not so cheerfully corrupt, it experiences a lot of guilt about all
that and HIDES the drugs inside Jesus statues and religious altars and
things, but still firmly believes that chiva negra is one of the Two Great
Demons (the other being blanco of course, most especially when you SMOKE
the demon, much like crack, only non-culture centric…  Belize is very
professional in its corruption, it’s shiny and glossy and Right Out There,
whereas the Caribbean is more like Thailand, it’s mellow and accepting and
easy-going mon, which I s’pose is not surprising.  America as whole is
completely inconsistent, and vibrations vary widely, sometimes even from
block to block, or time of day and phase of moon, when it is possible to
absolutely resonate with your molecules and radiate within and through
them, while at others no matter what you do, you seem to wind up in these
spirals made out of barbed wire which is shredding you as you sink through
bleeding quicksand, hmm, oh yeah, duh, i forgot to Go into The Light.  But
I suppose that is just the Way of the World.  That is my opinion at this
very moment anyway, but it could change at any time.

Mostly, as a whole, this is THAILAND’s fault and the Hmoung cannot be held
responsible for the whole entire situation.  Since the laws there change
every 3 hours or so, depending on how moody the King is feeling that day,
and the only part of the laws that ever remains consistent is that it is
okay for them to cultivate opium poppies and USE them, because that is
their cultural heritage, but they’re never, ever, at all, not even
supposed to THINK ABOUT breaking it down into heroin and exporting it.
That would be Very Naughty.

That’s it then,

Patrick

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From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 28, 2002 at 2:16:31 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I see no problem with this at all. It’s not as if these future moms are being herded into the sterilization pens.

As somebody who works for a living and has had their share of drug problems I don’t have any interest in paying for some crackwhore’s kids being taken care of when she keeps having them. I resent that. If you want to have kids and ruin their lives and don’t have enough common sense to know your a mess that’s your business and I feel sorry for the kids but it shouldn’t be my tax dollars paying for all that.

Sorry but that’s reality. In case none of you read anything except drug lists there is this over population problem with the world, there is no shortage of babies. None at all.

Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?

The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
birth control.

When does simple drug use become reason enough to
sterilize mothers?

I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
personally think there are cases where a person should
be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
drug addiction and you are pregnant again…). But
that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it like
MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn’t be
allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a problem
with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
specific birth control methods as some violation of
morality.

Brett

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Date: July 28, 2002 at 2:09:36 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The problem with yahoo is they want you to get so frustrated with their free service that you upgrade to paid. Same problem as hotmail.

You get what you pay for. How do you connect to the internet? That should come with some kind of inbox that works.

Most services that charge you something work and kill the ads and pop ups, you get what you pay for.

All the online heroin sites are real flaky this month or 6 weeks.

Calming down.

Does anyone know what is the problem with yahoo? My
mail is completely screwed up, my groups don’t work
anymore I have downloaded and deleted alllllll the
things in my inbox I go to trash and click delete and
it gives that stupid message that trash is
automatically deleted.

Great except every time I log in it tells me I am
using more then my storage quota and I have 5 msgs
left in my mailbox! All my folders are downloaded and
none of those 5 have attachments!!

Nothing works and nobody cares.

Sorry, this was going to be a ibogaine related msg.

What has happened with heroin everything, Patrick,
Francis, either one of you know? Your site is off line
almost always Francis, it keeps loading the front page
and doesn’t let you go into the magazine anymore, this
is heroinhelper or course and Heroin Times did not
manage to come out with a July issue at all and it’s
nearly August, Patrick you write for all the issues,
is it dead?

Is everything on the entire internet broken tonight?

Time to get off the computer 🙂

Carla B

Communicate in total privacy.
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From: “Mike Zeiss” <drfeelgood@chemist.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine source to mexico
Date: July 28, 2002 at 2:00:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I live in southern california, I’ve read the list of ibogaine sources on co.uk and wanted to know if anyone has experience with the people who are selling it. I want to buy 5-10 grams of HCL for my personal use, I can easily drive across the border and have places where I could receive it.

I would do it in Mexico of course and not bring it into California.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

MZ


__________________________________________________________
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Date: July 28, 2002 at 1:06:34 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Calming down.

Does anyone know what is the problem with yahoo? My
mail is completely screwed up, my groups don’t work
anymore I have downloaded and deleted alllllll the
things in my inbox I go to trash and click delete and
it gives that stupid message that trash is
automatically deleted.

Great except every time I log in it tells me I am
using more then my storage quota and I have 5 msgs
left in my mailbox! All my folders are downloaded and
none of those 5 have attachments!!

Nothing works and nobody cares.

Sorry, this was going to be a ibogaine related msg.

What has happened with heroin everything, Patrick,
Francis, either one of you know? Your site is off line
almost always Francis, it keeps loading the front page
and doesn’t let you go into the magazine anymore, this
is heroinhelper or course and Heroin Times did not
manage to come out with a July issue at all and it’s
nearly August, Patrick you write for all the issues,
is it dead?

Is everything on the entire internet broken tonight?

Time to get off the computer 🙂

Carla B

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: July 27, 2002 at 9:53:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Joatammmo23@aol.com wrote:
Why don’t we intelligently talk about the scurge of
Hep C and what ibogaine
MAY do to the liver?

Sure, Ibogaine will do absolutely nothing to the liver
in hep C or any other patient.

That is not the problem with giving ibogaine to
patients with liver damage (any liver damage), it is
that ibogaine levels can get too high if ibogaine
cannot be metabolized into nor-ibogaine. Some patients
without any liver damage are unable to process
ibogaine the way the rest of us do, they are slow
metabolizers. A test dose is one way to help determine
how someone will react to ibo and the dosage may be
adjusted or treatment terminated/put off.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 27, 2002 at 4:35:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There’s  supposed to be an Ibogaine forum in the fall in the Bay
area. Anyone want to work on it?

Who is organizing it? Is there a location yet? (I’m pretty
booked, but may be able to help in small ways.)

Bill

We need ideas for a location, I think. Lots of people in S.F. are
already in the loop. Steve at 415-752-7429. Nelson at 415567-0873. Or
Julia at 707-987-8315/8303.

Dana/cnw

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: July 27, 2002 at 4:32:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/27/02 3:46:38 PM, Joatammmo23@aol.com writes:

Why don’t we intelligently talk about the scourge of Hep C and what ibogaine
MAY do to the liver?

Jo,

Ibogaine is metabolized by the liver as are most drugs known to me.  I have
not read any reports on ibogaine injuring the liver but, then ibogaine is not
often used.  There have been a few undocumented reports of ibogaine placing
hep C in remission.  HOWEVER, both Mash in the case of ibogaine and
noribogaine and Glick et al. in the case of 18-mc and its meabolite 18-hc,
indicate concern for ibogaine and ibogaine like drugs having adverse affects
that may include toxicity due to existing liver damage or concurrent use of
drugs/medications making use of the same liver enzyme pathways as do the
iboga alkaloids.

Any person considering ibogaine therapy who is not in good health or has
perceived health concerns should consider taking ibogaine only on the
authorization of a medical doctor providing the drug.

Ibogaine is an experimental medication.  There are known fatalities.

Howard

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Denny Lane New Vermont contact
Date: July 27, 2002 at 3:54:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Will ibogaine take the need for benzodiazapenes away?  I have a 20 year habit on ativan use given to me after a complete hysterectomy.
I want this cure so bad for methadone, but if it doesn’t work for benzo’s would it be all for nothing?

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: July 27, 2002 at 3:37:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Why don’t we intelligently talk about the scurge of Hep C and what ibogaine MAY do to the liver?

From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] find it
Date: July 27, 2002 at 1:19:31 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

go to rosorito beach  mexico 2.800 but except payments

From: stonedhead@popmail.com
Subject: [ibogaine] find it
Date: July 27, 2002 at 10:37:36 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i need some help on finding some ibogaine somewhere for a fair price and whom i can trust. thanks from turkey.

………………………………
Get your own free email account from
http://www.popmail.com

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 6:38:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There’s  supposed to be an Ibogaine forum in the fall in the Bay
area. Anyone want to work on it?

Who is organizing it? Is there a location yet? (I’m pretty
booked, but may be able to help in small ways.)

Bill

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 5:07:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Wonderful place, especially San Francisco,”

“now live in the SF Bay.”

How about a get-together of SF/nearby members of this list?

Bill

There’s  supposed to be an Ibogaine forum in the fall in the Bay
area. Anyone want to work on it?

Dana/cnw

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 3:55:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Wonderful place, especially San Francisco,”

“now live in the SF Bay.”

How about a get-together of SF/nearby members of this list?

Bill

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Thanks!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 2:42:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana all right!!

If I was near NY I would be there, any events in CA?

I also wanted to say thanks! Patrick and whoever else
is doing all this I’ve just realised I take all the
lists and Mindvox for granted because they’ve become
part of my day and it’s all just worked ever since I
got here. It’s never gone down or broken and that’s a
lot I guess.

I’m realising all this because yahoo has started
driving me crazy, I moved to yahoo from hotmail when
they started turning everything into a mess and now
I’m wondering where to move to. If you people ever
open email accounts I’d pay $20 or $30 a year to you
instead of hotmail to have mail that works. This isn’t
pressuring you I know people have asked 50 times
already I’m just saying thank you!

Just as a question, when are you opening? useless
account and all the other people on the other list are
busy talking about whatever it is that is upsetting
hackers, but some of the people on the other list act
like they’re using it, is it open?

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 1:06:46 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey this is worth practising the art opf impulse (& flying over)
Dana – WELL Funking Done and not a moment too late

Love/appreciation andria

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 July 2002 16:43
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

Hey Howard,
Thanks for posting this. You are right, he should be CROWING, saying, Come on out and help me CELEBRATE! any excuse right?;-))
anyway, I put a little link to this news up, so again, thanks.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:21 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime Achievement Award for medical
marijuana activism and he is hardly telling anyone.  Beal really deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible entertainment) aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will present the award which is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 11:43:19 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Howard,
Thanks for posting this. You are right, he should be CROWING, saying, Come on out and help me CELEBRATE! any excuse right?;-))
anyway, I put a little link to this news up, so again, thanks.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:21 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime Achievement Award for medical
marijuana activism and he is hardly telling anyone.  Beal really deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible entertainment) aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will present the award which is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 26, 2002 at 11:21:01 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

or it means that you are a stickler for the “rules” (which got us all here for good or ill in the first place, didn’t they?) and has absolutely nothing to do with someone’s grammar skills. I take it you understood what was meant by “prolly” therefore why should it be spelled differently? Are you grading someone?
Why would you bother posting such drivel?
For that matter, why am I?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)

That word prolly instead of probably shows your grammar needs some work.

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 11:05:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Betty

Try unsubscribing (see message header snip – looks
like to unsubscribe you send mail to
ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com from the account)

Brett

<mailto:ibogaine@mindvox.com>
List-Help: <mailto:ibogaine-help@mindvox.com>
List-Unsubscribe:
<mailto:ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com>
List-Subscribe:
<mailto:ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com>
Delivered-To: mailing list ibogaine@mindvox.com

— betty doyle <bdoyle2@neo.rr.com> wrote:
I would like to be taken off of this list as soon as
possible.
—– Original Message —–
From: “ARON KAY” <pieman@pieman.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

howard already got an award….now its dana’s turn
which is long
overdue……
i can confirm this for sure since i am security
coordinator for
cures-not-wars which ridded the world of a nazi
blight named hank
nuesslein
(see http://mojo.calyx.net/~pieman/skank)

ARON KAY-http://www.pieman.org
http://www.pieman.org/pissonbush.html
http://www.pieman.org/fuckyouverymuchbush.htm
WHEN PIES ARE OUTLAWED!!!
ONLY OUTLAWS WILL THROW PIES!!!
—– Original Message —–
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

Congratulations Dana!!!  Wish I could be in
attendance in order to meet
you, Howard, and others.

The “HOWARD SHOULD GET AN AWARD” award is hereby
officially given by me
to Howard Lotsof for all of his work with
Ibogaine.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

HSLotsof@aol.com 07/25/02 10:21AM >>>
Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime
Achievement Award for medical

marijuana activism and he is hardly telling
anyone.  Beal really
deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the
notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.
(docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform
Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through
non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible
entertainment) aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will
present the award which
is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the
notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.
(docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 26, 2002 at 9:20:12 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Don

Nobody is rejecting YOU. But honey, it is a little selfish to carry on ignoring the needs of folk on this list who need/want to talk about drug treatment through Ibogaine.

Enjoy t’other list; I might just join it if I find the time

Take care of YOU, and take your meds regular (I say this to you, in order to reach both of us!!! If/when you decide to come off, I’d be delighted to hear how u didi it)

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 24 July 2002 22:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???

HOW DO I GET OFF THIS LIST!?   what IS THIS?  Bunch of weirdo pseudo intellectuals!

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist saying that before I go!

I’m no longer allowed to respond to such questions on this list.  I’m going to remove myself from this list ’cause it’s too much of a temptation for me to respond when you people ask me questions that are off topic from ibogaine.   And if I continue talking about the Lord on this list, MindVox has threatened me with a lawsuit and a butt kicking.  Since I’m tired of having my butt kicked, I’m going to go hang out on the kotas4christ list.  Also, Patrick is the closest I’ve got to an actual friend, and he’s starting to get upset with me.  Any religious questions should be posted over there, which is actually right here in reality, see, I know what reality is!

I’m going to go out onto USENET now and advertise the List.   Hey, usenet is right here as well… Ain’t it a trip!

Bye all, hope you all feel better.  As for me, I feel with my fingers.  If you want to write to me, send me email <neuroskull@aol.com>, or send it to the kotas4christ List, I’m not on this one anymore.

Don
I don’t have an addiction… I can quit any time I want, really.  😉

In a message dated 7/24/2002 1:56:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

Besides, Don, don’t you have some kind of pharmaceutical addiction
that renders your decision-making faculties kind of suspect as far as
determination of ultimate reality  is concerned? Standard issue
Christianity is a panacea for people with a weak reality sense. Would
you try Ibogaine instead?

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 26, 2002 at 5:51:41 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Jellking” <jellking@yahoo.com>

Andria wrote, “Nice one Jane Whomever you are!  Celebrate our diversity
and differences; that’s what I say sis. Which state are you in?”

Thanks for the kind words, Andria.  I’m in California. Born here, 4th
generation. Wonderful place, especially San Francisco,  But too many cars
and too much smog, and I adore London, really feel alive there.  Jane<<

Hey, Cali here, too! Born and raised in NM, but now live in the SF Bay. I
love London, too – been there twice, but it’s been a long time …

– jt

From: <nruhtra@dsskcorp.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Please unsubscribe me from your group. Thanks
Date: July 26, 2002 at 5:50:33 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <pmzeres@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ctrlaltdel the digital vortex

Please unsubscribe me from your group.  Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Philip mazieres <pmzeres@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Please unsubscribe me from your group. Thanks
Date: July 26, 2002 at 5:44:20 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please unsubscribe me from your group.  Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 25, 2002 at 10:28:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That word prolly instead of probably shows your grammar needs some work.

From: “betty doyle” <bdoyle2@neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 25, 2002 at 9:57:57 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would like to be taken off of this list as soon as possible.
—– Original Message —–
From: “ARON KAY” <pieman@pieman.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

howard already got an award….now its dana’s turn which is long
overdue……
i can confirm this for sure since i am security coordinator for
cures-not-wars which ridded the world of a nazi blight named hank
nuesslein
(see http://mojo.calyx.net/~pieman/skank)

ARON KAY-http://www.pieman.org
http://www.pieman.org/pissonbush.html
http://www.pieman.org/fuckyouverymuchbush.htm
WHEN PIES ARE OUTLAWED!!!
ONLY OUTLAWS WILL THROW PIES!!!
—– Original Message —–
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

Congratulations Dana!!!  Wish I could be in attendance in order to meet
you, Howard, and others.

The “HOWARD SHOULD GET AN AWARD” award is hereby officially given by me
to Howard Lotsof for all of his work with Ibogaine.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

HSLotsof@aol.com 07/25/02 10:21AM >>>
Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime Achievement Award for medical

marijuana activism and he is hardly telling anyone.  Beal really
deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible entertainment) aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will present the award which
is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 25, 2002 at 9:37:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria wrote, ”
Nice one Jane

Whomever you are!  Celebrate our diversity and differences; that’s what I say sis. Which state are you in?”

Thanks for the kind words, Andria.  I’m in California. Born here, 4th generation. Wonderful place, especially San Francisco,  But too many cars and too much smog, and I adore London, really feel alive there.  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, …
Date: July 25, 2002 at 9:21:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I suppose that the two are not a good mixture……higher power and a treatment.
Many don’t care to compromise their principles.

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 25, 2002 at 7:06:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Congrats Dana!

Carla B

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime Achievement
Award for medical
marijuana activism and he is hardly telling anyone.
Beal really deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the
notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked
behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform
Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through
non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible entertainment)
aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will
present the award which is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the
notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked
behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: “ARON KAY” <pieman@pieman.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 25, 2002 at 2:25:47 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

howard already got an award….now its dana’s turn which is long
overdue……
i can confirm this for sure since i am security coordinator for
cures-not-wars which ridded the world of a nazi blight named hank nuesslein
(see http://mojo.calyx.net/~pieman/skank)

ARON KAY-http://www.pieman.org
http://www.pieman.org/pissonbush.html
http://www.pieman.org/fuckyouverymuchbush.htm
WHEN PIES ARE OUTLAWED!!!
ONLY OUTLAWS WILL THROW PIES!!!
—– Original Message —–
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!

Congratulations Dana!!!  Wish I could be in attendance in order to meet
you, Howard, and others.

The “HOWARD SHOULD GET AN AWARD” award is hereby officially given by me
to Howard Lotsof for all of his work with Ibogaine.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

HSLotsof@aol.com 07/25/02 10:21AM >>>
Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime Achievement Award for medical

marijuana activism and he is hardly telling anyone.  Beal really
deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible entertainment) aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will present the award which
is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] movie review, news stories, links, photos, and more at drugwar.com
Date: July 25, 2002 at 1:10:50 PM EDT
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: “cia-drugs” <cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com>, “CRRH” <restore@crrh.org>, “DRCNet” <drcnet@drcnet.org>, “efficacy” <efficacy@email.msn.com>, <FreedomNewsNet@aol.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “rootsofteror” <rootsofterror@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
Long time since I’ve sent one of these notices out, but as everyone I’m sure is aware, life itself seems to be careening along at break-neck speed with all sorts of nefarious actions on the part of the US feds putting brainless fire to the coals inflaming the War, while so much of the rest of the world comes to its senses.
That all said, we have a few new stories headlined at our homepage at http://www.drugwar.com.

First, there’s a much needed, at least in the opinion of me, the editor, of a lighter (and to be quite honest a darker too) look at drug use as a simple and small fact of life as a whole in “A Smoking ‘Scarlet Diva” Storms NYC” by Preston Peet.
http://www.drugwar.com/pscarletdiva.shtm

Then we have a much more serious Op-Ed piece by Doug McVay of Common Sense for Drug Policy (http://www.csdp.org)

The Symbolism of Mandatory Drug Testing Teens in School
http://www.drugwar.com/pdmcvtesting.shtm

And we have a first hand report on the acquittal of James Souder by Anthony Lorenzo of the Florida Cannabis Action Network.

James Souder Found Not Guilty by Jury of His Peers
http://www.drugwar.com/psoudernotguilty.shtm

We also have some discussions about whether or not drug war reformers need to cut their hair and fit in with mainstream America to have real effects on change, or if this idea stems from the very fears and propaganda driving the whole entire War on Some Drugs and Users in the first place, beginning Way Back When.

Liquid Light- by Christopher Cadden
http://www.drugwar.com/pliquidlight.shtm

a reply/addiction to the thread of Liquid Light

Sex, Drugs and Rock ‘n Roll, 1000 BC – 200 AD – by Elmer Elevator
http://www.drugwar.com/psdrr.shtm
For more hard news, we have links to the now back online Akha journal by Matthew McDaniel in Thailand, the House giving a “stinging slap” by barring Ogilvy from getting paid for their work on the ONDCP Anti-Youth…Uh, that’s Anti-Drug National Media Campaign, not only because they committed fraud by overbilling the government and hence the taxpayers, but also seem have lead more kids to try out marijuana, NOT their stated goal by any means, leaving a very pissed off Appropriations committee. There are multiple news and press releases giving up-to-date commentary on various pro-marijuana, medical and non currently underway across the US, reports on San Francisco deciding to looking into growing their own medical marijuana since they’re sick of the feds coming in and raiding clubs, stories about Colorado police not destroying files they gathered by unusual means on “subversives’ and incidentally all sorts of other people, the blatant smear campaign by “someone” against Rev. Al Sharpton, (I mean, geez, how obvious can “they” get?)
We also have a new list to which you can subscribe at the top of the homepage at http://www.drugwar.com, and rant, rave, formulate good idea, post ad ones too, and generally try to figure out ways to educate others as to the damages caused by the War itself, and all kinds of other things too, pertaining to the War.

Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 25, 2002 at 11:39:18 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/25/02 11:03:56 AM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:

Congratulations Dana!!!  Wish I could be in attendance in order to meet
you, Howard, and others.

The “HOWARD SHOULD GET AN AWARD” award is hereby officially given by me
to Howard Lotsof for all of his work with Ibogaine.

Rick,

I received the first lifetime achievement award from the Big Apple Buyers’
Club for my ibogaine work two years ago.  This occurred while I was in the
hospital being treated for leukemia.  When my wife brought the award to the
hospital I was pleased to share it with the nursing staff and doctors.  It
was well received by all.

Howard

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 25, 2002 at 11:01:51 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Congratulations Dana!!!  Wish I could be in attendance in order to meet
you, Howard, and others.

The “HOWARD SHOULD GET AN AWARD” award is hereby officially given by me
to Howard Lotsof for all of his work with Ibogaine.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

HSLotsof@aol.com 07/25/02 10:21AM >>>
Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime Achievement Award for medical

marijuana activism and he is hardly telling anyone.  Beal really
deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible entertainment) aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will present the award which
is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge
restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball
city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Dana gets award!!!!
Date: July 25, 2002 at 10:21:51 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am I pissed.  Dana is getting a Lifetime Achievement Award for medical
marijuana activism and he is hardly telling anyone.  Beal really deserves
this award.

Along with the award comes a NYC party!!

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

This gathering will benefit the Marijuana Reform Party
$8$ bucks to get in.

PERFORMERS in addition to Beal 😉

TEAM ALLIANCE [hip-hop]
CHARITY [the flame within externalized through non-ordinary means]
MEDICAL MARIJUANA BARBIE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DANCERS

VEGAN AND NON-VEGAN PASTRIES (edible entertainment) aka food

Tom Leighton of MRP and/or Howard Lotsof will present the award which is the
2nd ANNUAL LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Sunday, July 28, 2002
8:00 PM – ?
The party/award celebration will be held at the notorious NY barge restaurant
whatever, better known as The Frying Pan.  (docked behind basketball city,
west 23rd St. and west side highway).

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 5:14:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HOW DO I GET OFF THIS LIST!?   what IS THIS?  Bunch of weirdo pseudo intellectuals!

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist saying that before I go!

I’m no longer allowed to respond to such questions on this list.  I’m going to remove myself from this list ’cause it’s too much of a temptation for me to respond when you people ask me questions that are off topic from ibogaine.   And if I continue talking about the Lord on this list, MindVox has threatened me with a lawsuit and a butt kicking.  Since I’m tired of having my butt kicked, I’m going to go hang out on the kotas4christ list.  Also, Patrick is the closest I’ve got to an actual friend, and he’s starting to get upset with me.  Any religious questions should be posted over there, which is actually right here in reality, see, I know what reality is!

I’m going to go out onto USENET now and advertise the List.   Hey, usenet is right here as well… Ain’t it a trip!

Bye all, hope you all feel better.  As for me, I feel with my fingers.  If you want to write to me, send me email <neuroskull@aol.com>, or send it to the kotas4christ List, I’m not on this one anymore.

Don
I don’t have an addiction… I can quit any time I want, really.  😉

In a message dated 7/24/2002 1:56:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

Besides, Don, don’t you have some kind of pharmaceutical addiction
that renders your decision-making faculties kind of suspect as far as
determination of ultimate reality  is concerned? Standard issue
Christianity is a panacea for people with a weak reality sense. Would
you try Ibogaine instead?

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 5:00:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 04:43:41PM -0400], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| But did you send it to Dave Michon? I never saw a reply. Interesting
| that you paired it to a response to Richard Lake.

Yeah, read the headers, it went to You, Howard, Richard, and Dave.  Dave
has replied to me several times, he does not CC you back into it, because
it apparently upsets him that you reprint his mail without his permission.

Basically, I get the feeling he does not want his email in your
newsletter.  This may be an incorrect assumption on my part, but you
should ask him that.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 4:57:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 04:56:14PM -0400], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| No I don’t want to join another list. I do, however, think some
| discussion of Bwiti is appropriate, Patrick, even as to its
| connection w. other religions. But I am not interested in receiving
| anyone’s finished Gospel– only in studying how it incorporates
| elements of older faiths, a la the Passover Plot.

Yes, absolutely.  The Bwiti and Ibogaine sure are related, no problem, my
intent was merely to cut down on the Find Jesus [HERE] messages.  Unless
you want all of them, which is equally okay with me.

Patrick

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 4:56:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 03:37:53PM -0400], [NeuroSkull@aol.com] wrote:

| If you come over to this List:  <kotas4christ-subscribe@mindvox.com> ÝI’m
| talking about something I know you’ll understand and I promise not
to get mad
| at you.  I talk about Jesus over there on that List.  Ummm…..  speaking of
| stabbings..  I was stabbed once, actually several times, but it happened on
| two or three different occassions.    Come learn about the Love and Light
| that is Jesus Christ, come to the kotas4christ List… Kotas, that’s me.
| It’s a name, it’s Greek, but I’m a mutt.  Sorta Greek, Czech mix..
Bohemian.
| But does that really matter?  Naaah.  COME ON OVER!  WHEW!

Don, just a gentle reminder.  Your World Ministries, are now Fully
Operational.  It might be a great idea to promote awareness of this in
Other Places.  Such as, fer instance, wherever it is that Persons who Wish
to Receive Christ, like to hang out.  You would know where that is, much
better than I.

This list in particular, prolly contains a large majority who are not —
right at this moment — interested in hearing The Gospel.  Which is one
of the reasons I gave you the list in the first place.  In the event
anyone feels the need to Be Saved, they *know* where to go.  You’ve told
them.

Please don’t keep reposting it, to THIS list.  It will not generate an
avalanche of new subscriptions.

Thanks,

Patrick

No I don’t want to join another list. I do, however, think some
discussion of Bwiti is appropriate, Patrick, even as to its
connection w. other religions. But I am not interested in receiving
anyone’s finished Gospel– only in studying how it incorporates
elements of older faiths, a la the Passover Plot.

Besides, Don, don’t you have some kind of pharmaceutical addiction
that renders your decision-making faculties kind of suspect as far as
determination of ultimate reality  is concerned? Standard issue
Christianity is a panacea for people with a weak reality sense. Would
you try Ibogaine instead?

Dana/cnw

Dana/cnw

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 4:43:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 12:29:01PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Who is this and where is this from? That attached is
| from greenparty groups I’m reading and I find this in
| the middle of it, which was never on this list in the
| first place. Did I miss it or what is this about?

That was private email between a couple of people, which Dana reprinted in
his MMM newsletter, since he was one of the people involved.

But did you send it to Dave Michon? I never saw a reply. Interesting
that you paired it to a response to Richard Lake.

Dana/cnw

From: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [12-step-free] Re: Cure for Alcoholism Suppressed / Ibogaine
Date: July 24, 2002 at 4:27:50 PM EDT
To: “ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

——-Original Message——-

From: 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 01:51:22 PM
To: 12-step-free@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [12-step-free] Re: Cure for Alcoholism Suppressed / Ibogaine

Hi again, Les.

Yes, now you’ve jogged my memory — I have read about this.

Here’s my take on this type of approach. I have no doubt it could work. I know firsthand how powerful psychic housecleaning can be.

I’m still convinced that drug use has a bio-chemical component. It’s a chicken and egg question. If you undergo an “enlightenment” experience that instantaneously removes a source of psychological stress, yup, that could do it, partly because it will cause a re-regulation of neurotransmitter levels.

Or you could rebalance your brain chemistry and suddenly find out that those old childhood traumas somehow don’t affect you quite like they used to.

Or better yet, do both.

What you’re saying about the battle to have a non-mainstream therapy accepted — that, I can relate to! Dr. Gant has the independently-conducted clinical outcome study showing success rates of up to 83 percent, and the mainstream media ignores it, because if you admit there’s some validity there you have to throw so much out of the window, including AA and an entire industry based on drugging people for psychological conditions.

I’m afraid the media, FDA and pharmacueticals wield so much institutional control that it takes miracles any more to get around them.

I will visit the website. Thanks.

Kirsten

<<
Hi Kirsten:  Ibogaine Therapy really helps people get to the “root” causes of substance
abuse (in fact, it is even made out of a “root”).
The client undergoes a self-reflective and introspective “vision quest”
(that often involves a vivid regression to childhood memories) and discovers
the underlying causes for otherwise  seemingly irrational behavior
(such as cravings for alcohol and other drugs)
The treatment is not “substituting one drug dependency for another”, because
once is usually enough. This is also why the pharmaceutical industry is not
interested in funding the clinical trials for FDA approval… the product is
inexpensive and there is no recurring income (such as with methadone
maintenance).  For additional information, please go to the Ibogaine Dossier website at
http://www.ibogaine.org/  We have connections to a M.D. in Brazil with
permission to conduct therapeutic research with Ibogaine under a controlled
clinical setting. I look forward to your comments and questions.  >>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
____________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 4:20:01 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks moderator helper elf.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???

On [Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 03:37:53PM -0400], [NeuroSkull@aol.com] wrote:

| If you come over to this List:  <kotas4christ-subscribe@mindvox.com> I’m
| talking about something I know you’ll understand and I promise not to get mad
| at you.  I talk about Jesus over there on that List.  Ummm…..  speaking of
| stabbings..  I was stabbed once, actually several times, but it happened on
| two or three different occassions.    Come learn about the Love and Light
| that is Jesus Christ, come to the kotas4christ List… Kotas, that’s me.
| It’s a name, it’s Greek, but I’m a mutt.  Sorta Greek, Czech mix.. Bohemian.
| But does that really matter?  Naaah.  COME ON OVER!  WHEW!

Don, just a gentle reminder.  Your World Ministries, are now Fully
Operational.  It might be a great idea to promote awareness of this in
Other Places.  Such as, fer instance, wherever it is that Persons who Wish
to Receive Christ, like to hang out.  You would know where that is, much
better than I.

This list in particular, prolly contains a large majority who are not —
right at this moment — interested in hearing The Gospel.  Which is one
of the reasons I gave you the list in the first place.  In the event
anyone feels the need to Be Saved, they *know* where to go.  You’ve told
them.

Please don’t keep reposting it, to THIS list.  It will not generate an
avalanche of new subscriptions.

Thanks,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 3:47:36 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 03:37:53PM -0400], [NeuroSkull@aol.com] wrote:

| If you come over to this List:  <kotas4christ-subscribe@mindvox.com> 營’m
| talking about something I know you’ll understand and I promise not to get mad
| at you.  I talk about Jesus over there on that List.  Ummm…..  speaking of
| stabbings..  I was stabbed once, actually several times, but it happened on
| two or three different occassions.    Come learn about the Love and Light
| that is Jesus Christ, come to the kotas4christ List… Kotas, that’s me.
| It’s a name, it’s Greek, but I’m a mutt.  Sorta Greek, Czech mix.. Bohemian.
| But does that really matter?  Naaah.  COME ON OVER!  WHEW!

Don, just a gentle reminder.  Your World Ministries, are now Fully
Operational.  It might be a great idea to promote awareness of this in
Other Places.  Such as, fer instance, wherever it is that Persons who Wish
to Receive Christ, like to hang out.  You would know where that is, much
better than I.

This list in particular, prolly contains a large majority who are not —
right at this moment — interested in hearing The Gospel.  Which is one
of the reasons I gave you the list in the first place.  In the event
anyone feels the need to Be Saved, they *know* where to go.  You’ve told
them.

Please don’t keep reposting it, to THIS list.  It will not generate an
avalanche of new subscriptions.

Thanks,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 3:43:36 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 12:29:01PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Who is this and where is this from? That attached is
| from greenparty groups I’m reading and I find this in
| the middle of it, which was never on this list in the
| first place. Did I miss it or what is this about?

That was private email between a couple of people, which Dana reprinted in
his MMM newsletter, since he was one of the people involved.

| The other question I have is what exactly is the deal
| on the other list with all of you, that british paper
| is now on 5 or 6 articles and that latest one says
| that guy who worked for Mindvox is some sociopath who
| has restraining orders on him and tried to kill his
| girlfriend with a knife. I know you made jokes about
| this but it’s for real? Who are all these people,
| gweeds, ruy, useless account, sir dystic, what is cdc,
| lopht, @stake? It also says that he is the reason you
| guys went offline in 1997?

Look, please keep all that on the other list, if you wanna know who they
all are, then ask them.  Mostly they are all Other People using an Alias.

All of it pertains to the 3l33t h3x0r world, and *not* ibogaine.

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 3:30:53 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You’re in Camden town? Great place. I saw Monster Magnet there once, (nod to Patrick here), at I think the Underworld, or the World, something like that. That was also the first place I ever experienced methadone, drinking about 80 mils after never having done it ever in my life, but having a slight dope chippy habit at that point figured that I’d just “get high” off the stuff, since I’d gotten it cheap.
BLECH!
I spent a good half an hour trying to make myself throw up into the canal in Camden Town.
Sorry, here I go again, diverging from ibogaine. hmmmm, how to tie it in here.
Ah well, I can’t so never mind.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!

Camden Town. When are you coming , what for, how long and how are u?!!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Philip mazieres [mailto:pmzeres@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 July 2002 17:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!

Hi
i am coming to london
at which metro station are you ?

>
>
> Andria E-Mordaunt
> Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
>
> MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
> SE1 OEE, U.K
> 0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
> 0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
>
> andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
> or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
> <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
> Sent: 23 July 2002 19:20
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
>
>
> Heck no!  The biggest struggle I’m having right now
> is to find a way to get
> off Effexor.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:12:26 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:
>
>
>
>
> You don’t experiment anymore right?
>
>
>
>
>
> NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH
> OF MINDVOX ESCORT
> AGENCY
>                            _,.——-.,_
>                        ,;-‘                    ‘-;,
>                      ,;
> ;,
>                    ,;
>   ;,
>                   ; ;          .           .
> ; ;
>                   | ;   ___          ____      ; |
>                   |  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
>                   |  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
>                    |  |              }:{
> |  |
>                    |  |              / | \
>   |  |
>                    .   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
>                    |          —;’ / | \ `;—
> |  .
>                     \__.          \/^\/       .__/
>
>                       | \                         /
> |
>                       | | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
>                       | |     `[][][][][][][] | |
>                       |  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
>                        \   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
>                          \        .       .      /
>
>                              ^~~~^~~~^
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 3:37:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If you come over to this List:  <kotas4christ-subscribe@mindvox.com>  I’m talking about something I know you’ll understand and I promise not to get mad at you.  I talk about Jesus over there on that List.  Ummm…..  speaking of stabbings..  I was stabbed once, actually several times, but it happened on two or three different occassions.    Come learn about the Love and Light that is Jesus Christ, come to the kotas4christ List… Kotas, that’s me.  It’s a name, it’s Greek, but I’m a mutt.  Sorta Greek, Czech mix.. Bohemian.  But does that really matter?  Naaah.  COME ON OVER!  WHEW!

Don

In a message dated 7/24/2002 12:29:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:

What I’m trying to ask is what is all this? I don’t
understand any of it, the people who post to the other
list are talking about nothing I understand, ever. The
only part I understand is that a lot of you are
getting madder and madder at each other and I don’t
get what it’s all about.

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Where is this from???
Date: July 24, 2002 at 3:29:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all, some questions which are not completely
ibogaine related 🙂

Who is this and where is this from? That attached is
from greenparty groups I’m reading and I find this in
the middle of it, which was never on this list in the
first place. Did I miss it or what is this about?

The other question I have is what exactly is the deal
on the other list with all of you, that british paper
is now on 5 or 6 articles and that latest one says
that guy who worked for Mindvox is some sociopath who
has restraining orders on him and tried to kill his
girlfriend with a knife. I know you made jokes about
this but it’s for real? Who are all these people,
gweeds, ruy, useless account, sir dystic, what is cdc,
lopht, @stake? It also says that he is the reason you
guys went offline in 1997?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/26341.html

What I’m trying to ask is what is all this? I don’t
understand any of it, the people who post to the other
list are talking about nothing I understand, ever. The
only part I understand is that a lot of you are
getting madder and madder at each other and I don’t
get what it’s all about.

-carrie

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:

_______

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: “Dave Michon” <dajalyn@charter.net>
Subject: [Response To]: Re: Fwd: Re: yr email

Hullo,

This is a somewhat brief, point-by-point response to
some of the topics
which were raised in a letter Dana cc’d to me, and
asked my input on.

Please try to bear in mind the following things.

[01]: I do not know who some of you are (I know Dana
and Howard); who and
what exactly you represent, what the goals of your
organization
happen to be, whether you like the Democrats,
Republicans, or
are guided by the Illuminanti.  Whatever.  I dunno.

[02]: Along those same lines, I have no way of
knowing what exactly all
your inter-organizational conflicts happen to be.
Or even if
you have these; but I’m gonna guess that’d be YES,
since every
group of people loves to disagree with some other
set of
individuals.  Life’s just like that.

[03]: Brief summary of ME: I don’t smoke pot, I’ve
done heroin since the age
of 14, I LOVE heroin, think it’s simply magical;
I’ve usually
had money, gone to every Dr. Feelgood who holds
This Week’s
Answers! to opiate/opioid detox; done all
maintenance (methadone
and burpinex, never had the chance to do heroin
maintenance,
total bummer).  Whatever.  When I got unsprung my
daily intake
to get straight was 200mg methadone + 2 grams of
heroin + 12mg
Xanax, a day.

Do I have the super-exciting “heroin gene” Ernest
Noble is all giddy and
excited ’bout?  You BET!  Have a variety of
interesting neuroadaptions
taken place due to chronic, long-term administration
of exogenous opiates?
Sure thing mahn!  Dope ro0lz!  It’s the only time I
ever felt “normal.”
What’s not to like?  It FIXES everything!

Brief Media Kit is here:  (Resume`  Criminal Record
& MANY Long Letters
from shrinks, addictionologists, and “treatment
professionals!” <giggle>
available upon request!)

http://www.mindvox.com/staticpage/Media/

And off we go!

(Please understand that I am replying to THIS.  I am
unclear WHO exactly
wrote this though…)

| >If you have had bad experience with addicts I can
understand your ideas a
| >bit better. This is, however, like painting any
group with a broad brush.
| >Opioid dependent people are not universally
predatory and those that were,
| >or are, were, or are, that way because of
Prohibition. Addicts without the
| >horrifying threat of withdrawal are generally
very good people.

I agree, absolutely.  The actions people take,
usually fall under that
very broad heading: “desperation.”  If drug
prohibition were repealed,
that’d be groovy.  It would no longer be necessary
to live like an animal
or a slave, in order to support your “habit” if you
happen to have made
the choice to be drug-dependent.

| >And all of this ignores the very real biological
factors involved. We all
| >know folks who, back in the day, experimented
with opiates and gave it up
| >fairly easily. Others couldn’t. They possess this
disorder – whatever it
| >is.

I am highly up on the latest science, specifically
as it pertains to
addiction.  All of which ain’t saying too much.  In
the last 10 years we
have learned more about how the brain functions,
then in all of recorded
history up to that date.  And…  We still don’t
know very much.

The entire concept of “addiction” for that matter is
very ambigious and
vague.

What appears to be relatively clear is that a
certain subset of the
population has a specific genetic predisposition for
becoming
drug-dependent; in this case I’m talking about
opiates in particular,
although alcoholism, and probably all “addictions,”
have a similar basis.

Essentially; positing that you have this genetic
predisposition to begin
with.  Then you experiment with opiates/opioids and
discover they do
something SIMPLY WONDERFUL for you.  Which is
usually followed by a period
of nurturing your newfound “solution,” into a
full-fledged problem, which
appears to be pseudoirreversible.

EXCEPT . . .

That isn’t exactly true (covered a little further
down, when I reply to
ibogaine).

I absolutely believe that everyone has the basic
human right to select
their own state of consciousness.  A government that
believes it should
imprison me — for my own good — because I have
made the choice to alter
my state of mind; amounts to fascism.

Even further, aside from concept of drug-dependence
itself, there are a
variety of other factors involved, such as; MANY
people who are strung
out, are self-medicating a variety of underlying
disorders.  And, God
bless, because opiates/opioids are a damn good
answer, which WORKS; as
opposed to garbage like neuroleptics.

– – – – – – – – –

This is a long way of saying: I absolutely believe
that each individual
has the right to select what works best for THEM.
People should have the
right to MAKE CHOICES; not be treated as children,
residents of a prison,
or cattle.

– – – – – – – – –

| >
| >But all this can get fairly boring and I’m sure
you have your own strong
| >ideas on the matter. All I ask is that you keep
an open mind. I will do the
| >same – to the best of my ability. It is my hope
we can thereby establish a
| >rapproachment. I am at your service…

I have no clue what you’re talking about, skipping
this…

| >Regarding ibogaine, and mj maintenance (which, I
must confess, I have not
| >heard mentioned before now) I would like to
clarify my position. It is the
| >same I gave to Howard Lotsof who contacted me
following the last time I
| >responded in this fashion to a similar post of
yours. My view is that the
| >options available to opioid addicts must be
expanded. I feel this very
| >strongly because 30 years of addiction have shown
me that individual
| >idiosyncrasy figures heavily . Some people do not
respond well at all to
| >methadone (I count myself among that number).
Stories of ibogaine’s effects

Okay, I agree with all of this — except I have no
clue what “mj
maintenance” is exactly…?  Methadone maintenance
never did a thing for
me, except drive my habit into the stratosphere.
Roughly 2 years of MMTP,
gave me perhaps 3 days “clean.”  Off heroin anyway.
Woo hoo!

Of course, much of that is due to who I am and my
own response to being
“treated” with methadone.  I have many friends who
thrive on MMTP, and
prolly an equal number who used it for a while, then
continued to use it
in smaller doses and eventually stepped off.

I think MMTP, buprenorphine, and heroin maintenance,
should all be
available as options.

If there is an argument here, I do not understand
it.

| >on some people but not others squares well with
this concept. Accordingly,
| >I
| >believe an addict, probably along with their
physician, should have easy
| >access to (have CSA and regulatory barriers to –
removed) whatever, within
| >reason, they feel may be most likely to help
them. It is crucial to
| >understand that the consensus in our community is
that there is currently
| >no
| >”cure” for opioid addiction and the simple
withdrawal from opioid drugs –
| >no
| >matter how painless it may be made to be – simply
leaves the chronic
| >condition behind – and now untreated. We can get
through a jones – most of
| >us have done it many times. Note how we see
opioid use as simple
| >medicating,
| >self or otherwise, of a painful condition that is
only dimly understood at
| >this time and that condition remains after
withdrawal is over. That is why
| >the pharmacoepia should be open.

– – – – – – – – –

-=/[The IBOGAINE Part — If you skim the
rest, READ THIS]/=-

This is the part where some of the statements you
are making are not
correct.  In particular as they apply to ibogaine.

After many years of heavy opiate addiction, I had
tried pretty much every
available detox on the planet, ranging from UROD
(Ultra Rapid Opiate
Detox), Dr. Richard Resnick’s “black box”
(electronic acupuncture),
methadone, buprinex, tapering down to clonidine and
valium, the home
version of UROD (naltrexone with a handful of Xanax
and clonidine), and of
course the various unplanned detox’s in hotel rooms
with Bacardi 151 and
whatever I could get my hands on at the time.

Any or all of these methods “work.”  In the final
analysis all you really
need in order to get off of opiates is an empty room
and some time. In the
end you wind up feeling the same anyway.  Which is
to say, physically
unwell – to put it mildly.  Personally, this is also
right around the time
I always remember that heroin addiction isn’t really
my problem, it’s my
solution.

Ibogaine is NOT a “cure” for drug addiction,
although it very well may be
the greatest solution for drug-dependence.  It will
NOT magically rewrite
everything inside your head, it will not hand you a
brand new life, and it
will never make all your memories of how great
heroin is; go away.

HOWEVER:  It *DOES* bring you back to the point
where you are making
CHOICES and NOT following compulsions.

Yeah, I’m way-fucked, I light up half the DSM, I’m
manic-depressive as
hell, dysfunctional, and I LOVE heroin…  However,
after a lifetime of
using the shit…  I have 3 years completely clear
off ALL
opiates/opioids.  If I ever make the CHOICE to use
heroin again, it will
be just that; a CHOICE that I make.

Heroin rocks.  I will always know that, I have
learned it, I cannot unlearn
it.  But it is no longer this force beyond my
control which is compelling
me to keep chasing the shit, no matter what the
consequences happen to be
(and with our wonderful “War on Drugs,” they can be
pretty fucking
insane).

I have done EVERY opiate detox that exists, tried
all the available
treatment modalities.  None of them worked.  Okay,
sure, MOST of them
“work,” inasmuch as when I finish them, I’m “clean.”
BIG FUCKING DEAL,
I’m also — usually — sick as fuck, and if not, I
am STILL overwhelmed
with the need to use heroin.  Big wow.  Why even
bother putting myself
through this crap, how much do I hate myself?

What ibogaine appears to do is his a <RESET> on your
brain.  Saying that
“addiction” (by which I mean drug-dependence.  I am
talking about the
changes that take place on a neurological basis, in
response to chronic,
long-term self-administration of dope) is
reversible, isn’t exactly
correct either.

What it appears to do is reset your brain to a point
BEFORE you ever
became drug-dependent in the first place.
Addiction, what addiction?

Your drug-dependence is non-existed.

It is far beyond a detoxification.  And far less
than a complete rewrite
of your psychology.  Although you DO enter a
headspace wherein you may
experience waking visions, in an oneiric state,
replete with hypnagogic
imagery, which is TOTALLY UNLIKE Tripping the Fuck
Out.

That part can be a tremendous boost with regards to
that whole
reintergation scenario.  It CAN make lasting and
profound psychological
changes take place as well…  But that part is…
Well, it’s all over
the map, and depends a lot upon the individual.  And
nope, it sure doesn’t
work for everyone.

– – – – – – – – –

Being drug-dependent is a CHOICE.  Drug dependence
is NOT an irreversible,
chronic, progressive disease (you’re thinking of the
12-steps, which ARE
a pseudoirreversible, chronic, progressive mindcult
that convinces you of
this).

Drug-dependence may well be the BEST possible
answer, to a variety of
questions and/or problems.

But it is NOT a life sentence.  It all amounts to
being a series of
choices.

And each individual who is in the position of being
strung out, should at
the very least have the OPTION of making those
choices.

– – – – – – – – –

| >As an example, I abhor the idea of UROD – the
“Ultrafast Detox”, but I
| >think

UROD blows dead goats dude.  Done it twice, same
results both times.  Lot
of dollars for a lot of pain, followed by a lot more
dollars to bang up
enough heroin to overload the receptor blockade of
those annoying
naltrexone implants designed to “help me.”  Which
was another annoying
detour of having to cut that shit out of myself.
What fun.

| >it should be available – same with Naltrex and
the like. Blowfish toxin? Go
| >for it. And, of course, ibogaine. Have you seen
the Chinese work done on
| >Etorphine (yes, that’s right, the most powerful
of the Bentley Compounds
| >and
| >the most powerful narcotic on Earth)? *No*
withdrawal symptoms!
| >Methocloccinamox, NMDA antagonists, proglumide,
and on and on. Most
| >important, and for disparate reasons, is that
heroin maintenance, and other
| >adjuvant opioid therapies like Palfium, should be
available with, or
| >without, cocurrent methadone. The Swiss and Dutch
studies speak for
| >themselves.

ABSOLUTELY!

|  One of my biggest concerns is that of all those
stupid kids out
| >there: heroin maintenance would get them “in”
from the cold. It would also
| >strike a real blow to the black market filth.

Fuck yeah mahn.  Agreed 100%

| >So that’s my position vis a` vis ibogaine and
where I think it should fit
| >in
| >our community’s spectrum. If marijuana
maintenance is what I think it is, I
| >would have no objection whatever to it,
naturally. But that wasn’t the crux
| >of my post, of course. I wrote out in response to
what I saw as a
| >patronizing tone in your writing concerning
opioid addicts in general.
| >If you’ve known one addict – or fifty – you don’t
know them all. More
| >importantly, consider that there are almost two
hundred thousand methadone
| >maintained people in the US and most have put
heroin and painkiller use
| >behind them to try to take their rightful place
in society – not an easy
| >task. Many of us are growing old and have a
lifetime of achievement we can
| >point to and I’m sure you know there are
professors, lawyers, engineers,
| >etc. on methadone continuing exemplary careers.

Yeah, that’s great.  How does this conflict with
anything…?

| >We are a developing community – developing thanks
mainly to the Internet.
| >We
| >are indistinguishable from others unless you know
we’re on methadone. We’re
| >proud we’ve been able to come back from active
addiction. We are “coming
| >out
| >of the closet”. We are beginning to speak up.
Imagine how we feel when we
| >are talked down to or lumped into a stereotype.
It is so much worse when it
| >comes from an activist of your credentials.
| >
| >I know who you are and admire your career. I’m
sure we agree on most other
| >issues. What you say has impact.

< — No idea what you’re talking/arguing(?) about
here.  Skipping –>

| >Perhaps you might even consider whether the
plight of American addicts –
| >what I consider the last great civil rights
battle to be fought – might not
| >be an excellent subject for your skills. Talk
about fighting for the
| >oppressed!

Yup.  Those who make the choice to use drugs, or are
drug-dependent, are
effectively the last tribe of niggers on the planet.
An entire strata of
society it is alright to hate, disrespect, imprison,
and strip of their
rights.  All because I am guilty of the “crime” of
choosing my state of
mind.

Bummer mahn.

| >I understand the cannabis cognoscenti does not
want to be herded onto the
| >same cattle cars as the addicts. Marijuana
shouldn’t be treated the same as
| >heroin. That is ridiculous. But I think the
public knows that already.

<The rest of this I have skipped, because it’s
reiterating many of the
same points again, and mentions others which I am
simply unaware of, so
what’s to say…>

– – – – – – – – –

On [Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 10:52:53PM -0400], [Richard
Lake] wrote:

| I was a little bothered by some of the other drugs
being tested. It is one
| thing for a person to seek treatment using some
drug with a full
| understanding.
|
| But I worry that some of these drugs could be used
against the will of
| folks in forced treatment, both here in the U.S.
and elsewhere around the
| world where the rights of folks are not respected.
|
| Richard

Yeah, no kidding…  Drugabusesciences and their
spin control in
particular…  Are, uhm, somewhat disturbing with
their vision of a
drug-free utopia just over yonder horizon…

“And next, by 2007 we will have inoculations that
prevent orgasm!”

Woo Hoo

Patrick

*****!!! May 4, 2002 Cannabis Liberation Day:
Updates,  Reports!!!******

Pubdate: Wed, 17 Jul 2002

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 3:25:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
is there somebody on this list based in paris, france
?

Philip

No but we have some one going to Paris in the next couple of days. My
daughter, who is working on an Ibogaine forum in Paris. Sorry she
missed you, Andrea.

Dana/cnw

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hcl availability
Date: July 24, 2002 at 3:17:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am I allowed to respond to this here?  Patrick was so kind to give me the use of a new List <kotas4christ-subscribe@mindvox.com>  so that I can share the Good News of Christ with all the world.  I can talk about this over on that list if you all are interested in hearing what I have to say about it.
Don

I got into some trouble on the original Ibogaine list (calyx) for talking about VALIS. I would think you could speculate about the role of lost gnostic sacraments in the Grail story. You would like these books, I think. Have you read the Ibogaine story?

Read Chapter 12, the part about Parsifal. http://www.cures-not-wars.org/ibogaine/iboga.html And tell me if it doesn’t remind you of Ibogaine.

Apologies from the errors of grammar in my original post.

Dana/cnw

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hcl availability
Date: July 24, 2002 at 2:54:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am I allowed to respond to this here?  Patrick was so kind to give me the use of a new List <kotas4christ-subscribe@mindvox.com>  so that I can share the Good News of Christ with all the world.  I can talk about this over on that list if you all are interested in hearing what I have to say about it.

Don

In a message dated 7/24/2002 11:43:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

Isn’t this another version of Don’s belief-system? Isn’t the original
bwiti religion of Egypt and the harmala religion of Persia behind the
Christian belief system? In fact, doesn’t the savior who dies and
comes back to life emulating the life cycle of the Tree of Life?

Dana/cnw

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;                            ;,
,;                                  ;,
; ;          .           .         ; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hcl availability
Date: July 24, 2002 at 2:42:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

in valis we trust

paul

Isn’t this another version of Don’s belief-system? Isn’t the original
bwiti religion of Egypt and the harmala religion of Persia behind the
Christian belief system? In fact, doesn’t the savior who dies and
comes back to life emulating the life cycle of the Tree of Life?

Dana/cnw

From: Philip mazieres <pmzeres@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 12:49:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dont’t worry i will call yu before !

— Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
<AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Camden Town. When are you coming , what for, how
long and how are u?!!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Philip mazieres [mailto:pmzeres@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 July 2002 17:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!

Hi
i am coming to london
at which metro station are you ?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
[mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 19:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Heck no!  The biggest struggle I’m having right
now
is to find a way to get
off Effexor.

Don

In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:12:26 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

You don’t experiment anymore right?

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST
CHURCH
OF MINDVOX ESCORT
AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘
‘-;,
,;
;,
,;

;,
; ;          .           .

; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |

|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’
|
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{

|  |
|  |              / | \

|  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—

|  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/

| \
/
|
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |

|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |

\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /

^~~~^~~~^

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 12:45:16 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Camden Town. When are you coming , what for, how long and how are u?!!

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Philip mazieres [mailto:pmzeres@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 July 2002 17:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!

Hi
i am coming to london
at which metro station are you ?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 19:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Heck no!  The biggest struggle I’m having right now
is to find a way to get
off Effexor.

Don

In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:12:26 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

You don’t experiment anymore right?

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH
OF MINDVOX ESCORT
AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;
;,
,;
;,
; ;          .           .
; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{
|  |
|  |              / | \
|  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—
|  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/

| \                         /
|
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /

^~~~^~~~^

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Philip mazieres <pmzeres@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 12:32:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
is there somebody on this list based in paris, france
?

Philip

— Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
<AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
dear Jane, Don, all

I was in Jerusalem in 1999 for a drug treatment
conference which i spoke at.
I won’t go to deeply into this one as it is the
IBOGAINE list but just to
say that I went to an NA meeting down there (back in
the days when I still
did) and there was a man there who had been born
into liberal Judaism, who
converted to Hassidism. He was kidding me about this
as I was expressing
fear of some of the Hassidic men (but hey I express
fear of most men; they
tend to have the ‘power’ that certainly has been
weilded against me since
childhood.) Anyway, he was a healing force; after
speaking to him for 5/10
mins about his decision to convert and what it all
meant for him, I felt
less fear of the guys at the wailing wall.

And I must admit, I have been HUMOUNGOUSLY impressed
with the way you’ve all
come to resolve the religious/spiritual debate on
this list. So big thanx,
and can I apologise if I’ve said anything untoward
in this discussion

Solidarity and love from warmer London

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Jellking [mailto:jellking@yahoo.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 04:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Funny that you should say that!  Earlier I toyed
with the idea of saying
that we should send Patrick over to negotiate
between the Palestinians and
the Jews..  Sure couldn’t hurt!  Jane, I LOVE YOU!
And I’m sorry for
mounting a mini-crusade yesterday.  Sometimes my
mouth gets ahead of my
brain.

In Christ,

Don

Thanks.  You know, on ibo2, as I call it, I SAW in
panoramic precognition
(many of you know about stuff like this) my visit to
the rainforest
(ayahuasca, yes, but mostly environmentalism for the
Bolivian rainforest)
AND Jerusalem.  I lived in the heart of the old city
for 3 weeks (awesome).
The Academy of Jerusalem, who graciously had me as a
guest in their Old City
apartment, had one window overlooking the
palestinian souks and the other
overlooking the Wailing Wall and Dome of the Rock.
Talk about a place where
people live their religions…..the chanting (in 3
religions, at least, and
don’t forget the Canaanite) begins at about 3:30 a.m
and goes on.  Of course
I was there during Ramadan and Christmas.  Bethlehem
was disgustingly
commercial, even while Yassar Arafat attended
midnight mass in the Church of
the Nativity (this was the millenium, and everyone
was trying hard, I guess,
to capitalize on the moment).  Anyway, I’m pretty
interested in peace, like
every sane person alive, and believe we have to
start with ourselves!  Jane

_____

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos <http://autos.yahoo.com/>  – Get free
new car price quotes

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Philip mazieres <pmzeres@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 12:30:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
i am coming to london
at which metro station are you ?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 19:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Heck no!  The biggest struggle I’m having right now
is to find a way to get
off Effexor.

Don

In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:12:26 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

You don’t experiment anymore right?

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH
OF MINDVOX ESCORT
AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;
;,
,;
;,
; ;          .           .
; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{
|  |
|  |              / | \
|  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—
|  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/

| \                         /
|
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /

^~~~^~~~^

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 12:04:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

when ever I see this question I always wish people had asked me so I can answer “Flux”.  ::pats self on back, rubs my crippled weiner dog’s belly::

Don

In a message dated 7/24/2002 6:32:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

Which state are you in?

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 12:00:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria,

Effexor is a new kind of serotonin reuptake inhibitor used to treat depression.  Taking it for too long causes me to have bad reactions but then also, when ever I decrease my dosage I get really bad reactions too.  So I have to play this little game of increase/decrease dosage in order to trick my body or I should probably say my brain ’cause that’s what it affects.  Take it for too long and my involuntary muscles start to contract spasmodically, it mimicks ALS “Lou Gehrigs disease”.   Go off from it and my brain starts to vibrate….  I don’t know how else to describe it, but it feels like my brain is rattling around inside my head.  I get nauseous, extremely dizzy to the point that I can’t stand without having to hold onto something, and also I experience extremem fatigued.

Some people have complained about their dreams being too intense when on Effexor, but this is one side-affect that I sort of like.  Last night I dreamt that some zombies with hypodermic needles were chasing me!  I guess that would be a nightmare, but it was interesting.  I watched Night of the Living Dead before I went to sleep last night so that’s probably why.

Don

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] to be more clear
Date: July 24, 2002 at 11:50:08 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The reason I’m stalling slightly is simply because I only personally know one person whose ongoing recovery process included Ibogaine.

I have taken Ibogaine in an effort to see if I could stop taking SSRI’s, nicotine +++ but truth is I was not commited or fearless enough to drop either for good, (even 1 day at a time!)
However, I had an extraordinary experience with it, where I learnt a lot more about crazy/amazing ol’ me! Sometyhing to do with the fact that I can b a f of a stern woman, and especially hard on myself. That in itself is good info. to try and use in life daily – that is to be more compassionate towards myself. Indeed that attitude (when I remember it) has stopped many a heroin lapse from occuring.

I was also involved with guiding two people who were coming off heroin and/or methadone. One since died from Anorexia (long time coming) and the other is doing well. Last thing I heard was that he was in a new relationship and stabilised on meth, which is a hellava improvement from where he was.

As for HCV and Ibogaine; this issue raised a huge discussion some time ago; in short, if your liver is very damaged it may not be a great idea. On the other hand, if you are DESPERATE to get off meth and your liver is averagely damaged, I would probably say Go for it!

My Liver isn’t the greatest, but I didn’t notice any probs after, certainly do when I dare to drink Whisky though!
Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 21:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to be more clear

Andria

I have been getting anecdotal testimonies from those that have taken igo.  I just feel driven to find out as much as I can of the experience.  I want to be able to stay off of methadone, is it too late in life for it (should I stay with methadone)???   Is it safe when you already are infected with HCV?….questions like that.
I received a very good testimony from B.Calabrese.  It has been the best so far as testonies go.
If you have any thoughts to add, please feel free to write.  It will be so appreciated.

Judith Ostergard…AMMO…

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] Recall: [ibogaine] to be more clear
Date: July 24, 2002 at 11:47:52 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt would like to recall the message, “[ibogaine] to
be more clear”.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] to be more clear
Date: July 24, 2002 at 11:39:36 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The reason I’m stalling slightly is simply because I only personally know one person whose ongoing recovery process included Ibogaine.

I have taken Ibogaine in an effort to see if I could stop taking SSRI’s, nicotine +++ but truth is I was not commited or fearless enough to drop either for good, (even 1 day at a time!)
However, I had an extraordinary experience with it, where I learnt a lot more about crazy/amazing ol’ me! Sometyhing to do with the fact that I can b a f of a stern woman, and especially hard on myself. That in itself is good info. to try and use in life daily – that is to be more compassionate towards myself. Indeed that attitude (when I remember it) has stopped many a heroin lapse from occuring.

I was also involved with guiding two people who were coming off heroin and/or methadone. One since died from Anorexia (long time coming) and the other is doing well. Last thing I heard was that he was in a new relationship and stabilised on meth, which is a hellava improvement from where he was.

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 21:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to be more clear

Andria

I have been getting anecdotal testimonies from those that have taken igo.  I just feel driven to find out as much as I can of the experience.  I want to be able to stay off of methadone, is it too late in life for it (should I stay with methadone)???   Is it safe when you already are infected with HCV?….questions like that.
I received a very good testimony from B.Calabrese.  It has been the best so far as testonies go.
If you have any thoughts to add, please feel free to write.  It will be so appreciated.

Judith Ostergard…AMMO…

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] war on drugs
Date: July 24, 2002 at 10:57:59 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The International Coalition is administrated through ENCOD in Antwerp/Belgium. I am on the steering group of an 8-person group organising some conferences; 1st one hopefully next March

If you wanna get involved, another reason to call me so we can chat properly about it.

I may be in the U.S in September, but certainly by World AIDS Day for the HRC Conference.

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 21:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] war on drugs

Andria

Yes, I feel that it’s time for a party.  When will you be in the US?
I’m still a learner on this site so what is , or who is PP, or PK?  How does a patient from the US join you with the international coalition of reformers?

Judith Ostergard…AMMO…

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] to be more clear
Date: July 24, 2002 at 10:46:09 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Have you got a phone I can call you on? send it me off line privately if u want, and I can call you from office

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 21:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to be more clear

Andria

I have been getting anecdotal testimonies from those that have taken igo.  I just feel driven to find out as much as I can of the experience.  I want to be able to stay off of methadone, is it too late in life for it (should I stay with methadone)???   Is it safe when you already are infected with HCV?….questions like that.
I received a very good testimony from B.Calabrese.  It has been the best so far as testonies go.
If you have any thoughts to add, please feel free to write.  It will be so appreciated.

Judith Ostergard…AMMO…

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] relaps ,
Date: July 24, 2002 at 10:40:58 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Judith

Come and see us in England if u can!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 19:49
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaps ,

Sara

So, you are saying that some will spend a couple of thousand just to get clean enough to start shooting dope again?  I’m sorry, but I don’t understand that.  How many treatments are necessary, or does it vary from person to person?
I’m getting closer and closer to possibly leaving the country for the real thing (too bad that we have to run circles around the FDA) to find our own treatment.
I really don’t think that the methadone clinics would appreciate ibogaine becoming legal.

Judith Ostergard

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 10:06:50 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What’s Effexor Don?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 19:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Heck no!  The biggest struggle I’m having right now is to find a way to get off Effexor.

Don

In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:12:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

You don’t experiment anymore right?

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;                            ;,
,;                                  ;,
; ;          .           .         ; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K.
Date: July 24, 2002 at 10:06:03 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So Randy,
would you also encourage Asthmatics, people living with mental illness, AIDS
and many other ‘dis-eases’ to go for sterilisation?

I am born and raised in London/U.K: we tend to have a very different
approach to the issue of addiction/addicts and the whole drug ‘problem’ –
children are taken into care, but as far as I’m aware, nobopdy over here yet
is advocating the sterilisation of addict women, and i pray/hope they never
will.

It is bold and possibly dangerous road to go down – I’m not ready to even
think about further marginalising one of society’s most hated, and
stigmatised groups, not to mention criminalised

I’d be interested in any thoughts/responses u have to this

Respect

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice Ed/John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Randy Hencken [mailto:randyhencken@hotmail.com]
Sent: 23 July 2002 17:28
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K.

Good morning everyone,

Geez, it seems I’ve stirred up some emotion with my last letter agreeing
with C.R.A.C.K.  Sometimes I find it hard to get across what I truly think
or fill in a little e-note like this.  I don’t blame those of you who
responded to me for thinking that I am “judging” “hating” “a pretentious
dork” etc.  I am only writing from my life experience and from what I’ve
seen in the 4 methadone clinics that I attended and the dozen or more that I

have gone to work at and the hundreds of people on methadone whom I’ve
spoken with.  And I still feel the same.  [Preston] I never said that I
would “tell someone else they can’t have a child”.  I simply said that I
agree with the monetary incentive to stop desperate people from having
children.  Can we agree that if someone is willing to trade in their ability

to have a child for two hundred bucks than at least for that moment in time
we (society) are better off without them having children.  Yes there would
be casualties from a program like this(as I admitted earlier I might have
had a vasectomy).  What would be better? – most people who are unfit to
raise children don’t or the few that become fit can’t.

Carla- in the dog eat dog world that we live in – “caring for someone” is
not always enough.  Parents need to be able to provide…

What experiences have I had that make me so “judging”?:
Girl #1 Ran away from her court ordered rehab to live with me and my
girlfriend in colorado 1n 1999.  She had been on and off with this asshole
junkie boyfriend.  While she was with us she had lots of unprotected sex
with one of our friend who we all knew had hep c. Eventually she returned to

her ex in michigan got back on methadone, got pregnant and got put in jail.

The ex-boyfriend is serving some 15 years in the penn.  I know this girl and

I really feel bad for her child.  He just is not going to have the shining
opportunities that a well-balanced mom could give him.

Girl #2.  this girl is brilliant, graduated valedictorian of her high
school.  Unfortunately that was her last great accomplishment.  Anorexia,
speed addiction, crack addiction, morphine addiction and now methadone
dependence have ruled her life for the last 10 years.  At 28 she just gave
birth to a beautiful baby girl.  The dad used to beat her so he is not
involved in her life.  Mom lives at home with her parents.  The babies first

week in this world was spent in withdrawal.  Girl #2 hasn’t been able to
make a good decision in 10 years. Do you think her having a child (she
really cares about) was a good decision?

Girl #3.  My ex-girlfriend.  We spent years shooting dope together.  I got
her pregnant twice.  Fortunately she had a miscarriage and an abortion.  She

spent last year living on the streets of denver stealing and shooting
cocaine and going to a methadone clinic.  she spent six weeks in the I.C.U.
from an infection in her arm that spread to her heart.  This did not stop
her from using. eventually the law caught up with her and she was sent to
the state hospital.  she only stayed there for three months, she was
supposed to stay for 6 months.  She got out moved into a YMCA, continues to
be on methadone and started dating Leroy.  Leroy is on parole for violent
behavior and already has two other children from two different women, now he

is about to have a third.  Maybe I shouldn’t judge who is smart and who is
dumb, BUT I was smart enough not to have a kid with this girl.  She has a
truck load of problems.

Girl #4.  32 years old been on methadone for over ten years.  she lives at
home with her parents. she can’t even raise her Pug properly.  Now she got
pregnant one drunk night by a guy who doesn’t even know she is pregnant.
But she is so selfish that she is going to keep the child.

None of these 4 babies are going to have the opportunities that the average
american child will have.  I’m sure all these moms will “care” about their
babies but none of them are fit to have one. THEY CAN’T EVEN TAKE CARE OF
THEMSELVES.

I never said that we should force sterilization on anyone, but what is wrong

with encouraging it?  Society will be better off with less children,
especially in america.  What did someone say an american use  %80(?) of the
worlds resources.

I believe that we should offer every living person the best quality of life
they can have.  For some people it is methadone for others it is crack. and
that is all fine with me I really want them to have a great life, just don’t

raise children.

Rick, I would really like to see the figures you refer to.

Until I get inspired to write more,
Randy

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Newbie Questions
Date: July 24, 2002 at 9:55:03 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Karina Hey, u heroine u!
As soon as do feel better, would love to hear how you are doing, and anything else u want to share on this list

Giant lorry-loads of strength in the meantime

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com [mailto:Mzzthangg13@aol.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 11:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Newbie Questions

hello i just did ibo  on 7/12/02  to get offf 100mgs of dfamm meth i hate methadon  i stayed at the center for 5 days  i fgeel better  now i got home on  7/16 i had to go yesterday to the hospotal cause of thr pain like kicking  in my legs but i slept all day weds sorry i can’y write anymore wehn i fell better i wil karina

1111111111111

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 9:51:00 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dear Jane, Don, all

I was in Jerusalem in 1999 for a drug treatment conference which i spoke at. I won’t go to deeply into this one as it is the IBOGAINE list but just to say that I went to an NA meeting down there (back in the days when I still did) and there was a man there who had been born into liberal Judaism, who converted to Hassidism. He was kidding me about this as I was expressing fear of some of the Hassidic men (but hey I express fear of most men; they tend to have the ‘power’ that certainly has been weilded against me since childhood.) Anyway, he was a healing force; after speaking to him for 5/10 mins about his decision to convert and what it all meant for him, I felt less fear of the guys at the wailing wall.

And I must admit, I have been HUMOUNGOUSLY impressed with the way you’ve all come to resolve the religious/spiritual debate on this list. So big thanx, and can I apologise if I’ve said anything untoward in this discussion

Solidarity and love from warmer London

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Jellking [mailto:jellking@yahoo.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 04:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Funny that you should say that!  Earlier I toyed with the idea of saying that we should send Patrick over to negotiate between the Palestinians and the Jews..  Sure couldn’t hurt!  Jane, I LOVE YOU!  And I’m sorry for mounting a mini-crusade yesterday.  Sometimes my mouth gets ahead of my brain. 

In Christ, 

Don
Thanks.  You know, on ibo2, as I call it, I SAW in panoramic precognition (many of you know about stuff like this) my visit to the rainforest (ayahuasca, yes, but mostly environmentalism for the Bolivian rainforest) AND Jerusalem.  I lived in the heart of the old city for 3 weeks (awesome).  The Academy of Jerusalem, who graciously had me as a guest in their Old City apartment, had one window overlooking the palestinian souks and the other overlooking the Wailing Wall and Dome of the Rock.  Talk about a place where people live their religions…..the chanting (in 3 religions, at least, and don’t forget the Canaanite) begins at about 3:30 a.m and goes on.  Of course I was there during Ramadan and Christmas.  Bethlehem was disgustingly commercial, even while Yassar Arafat attended midnight mass in the Church of the Nativity (this was the millenium, and everyone was trying hard, I guess, to capitalize on the moment).  Anyway, I’m pretty interested in peace, like every sane person alive, and believe we have to start with ourselves!  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?
Date: July 24, 2002 at 9:38:34 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick

I was wondering if you could tell us what u do to get out of the ‘superman
spiral’ when you get into it, as I have a girlfriend who lives with MD, and
I’m never sure how, if at all, I can help.

All ideas from you will be most welcomed. meanwhile, peace and tranquility
to ya

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 04:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?

On [Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 02:14:43AM -0000], [Curtis  Hersch] wrote:
|
| On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :

| I’m sending mail off list, need to ask you something. Will
| hushmail accept mail without PGP? It must if you’re writing to
| list right?
|
| Curtis

Curtis.  While you have wonderful taste in fine music, and seem to
generally be a thoughtful and interesting person.  There is this word you
should look up, it’s called: subtle.  Pronounced  Sub-Tul.  Meaning: Learn
to shut the fuck up and think about what you’re about to say, before doing
so (I paraphrase here from Webster’s New Edition).  This message will be
the EXACT OPPOSITE of subtle.

You couldn’t possibly have INTENT to SOLICIT the purchase of SCHEDULE 1
SUBSTANCES, and plans to CONSPIRE to commit a FELONY right…?  Gosh I
hope not.  It’s great that we don’t log any IP’s and delete all the logs
every 5 minutes or so, like right now for instance.  Because saying all
that at a list of several hundred people you don’t know, may not be the
most brilliant thing you could possibly do.  Even though I know all you’re
gonna talk about is the weather, or possibly some legal location to
experience the wonder of ibogaine.  Using PGP.

“Hello Occifer!  I have heard this is a drug-infested hellhole.  Sounds
great to me!  Could you please tell me the nearest street corner where I
may purchase some Heroin and an 8ball!?!?11!!@!”

Just like do whatever, but please don’t run an announcement.  I realize I
have just added flashing neon to your sign, but it’d be groovy if people
did not repeat whatcha just did.  We fully intend to start the WorldWide
Access Database, but in my old age I have grown wary of taking any action
whatsoever, without having at least 4 lawyers surround me in a huddle and
whisper sweet nothings into my ear.  And do a good job at the delivery
too, I mean I WANT them to work at making me truly BELIEVE what they say,
or it’s just No Good.

Possibly, this too may be — and prolly is — an overreaction to all the,
“Where do I buy DrugZ!?!!!!!” mail I keep getting.  How should I know…?
I’m not a drug dealer, go to your nearest NA meeting, and you’ll find
lots of helpful people there.  Or look up “escort” in the yellow pages;
find the ho’s, they’ll help you find DRugZ.  Plus, also, in the worst
case, you can go to any Greyhound station.  It is U.S. Federal Law that
all Greyhound stations must be located within 2 blocks of at least half a
dozen pitchers.  Failing all that just find the street called, “Martin
Luther King Jr. Blvd” in whatever city you live in, and at least one end
will contain many helpful youths who may give the illusion of
aimlessly loitering, but are in actuality working super hard, selling
DRUGS!

If the healing molecule you wanna locate is ibogaine, well then whut Carla
sed’ is absolutely correct:

Ibogaine Treatment Centres and supply options

| >Shout outs to Patrick and Dave, like yer recovery anti-recovery
| >rap in HT.

Thank ewe.

p.s., pardon me, I seem to have misplaced my tinfoil hat today, the
weather is extremely paranoid.  This usually indicates a SpiraL into the
depressive part of manic depression is about to begin, thus — checking
watch — I should be Superman again in about 48 hours.

Until then, I remain very truly yours, curled in a fetal position under my
bed.  Aha, I have just realized that this time I will BEAT the depressive
part, by simply NEVER GOING TO SLEEP AGAIN!  Why haven’t I thought of this
before, it’s brilliant!  No wait, I have thought of it, d’oh.

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 9:34:08 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nice one Jane

Whomever you are!  Celebrate our diversity and differences; that’s what I say sis. Which state are you in?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Jellking [mailto:jellking@yahoo.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 04:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Don (Neuroskull) writes, “I’ve stopped.  And I apologize if my postings created a bit of a stir.  That wasn’t my intention.  In my ignorance and enthusiasm I mistook the ibogaine list as being similar to the vox list.. And well, as they say in modern parlance “My bad”.  I’ve never been accused of brilliance”
No harm done, though lots of venting. I (remember me?  sorry, folks, I try hard not to debate about religion with people, makes me too crazy) was offering Eric a book suggestion, one that helps me a lot.  Especially with MY manic phases.  It worries me though when people seeking help end up signing off  an ibo list because they can’t deal with the judgmental ranting.  It’s nice to see a reconciliation of sorts.  And, I must say, its rather exciting to see the change from judgment (on both sides) to a kind of acceptance of difference.  Let’s take it to Jerusalem!  Love, Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 24, 2002 at 9:27:38 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What country are you in Hal? And what exactly do u mean by u are looking 4 a way to get back into yourself

I guided a couple of people through the Iboga experience in England, and took it myself once.

Anyway, let us know what u mean

Take care

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Hal5943@aol.com [mailto:Hal5943@aol.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 02:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Who are you misinformed people. I am looking for a way to ibogaine myself into myself once again as I was about ten years ago before those nasty drugs.

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] if you like to have a baby ?
Date: July 24, 2002 at 2:21:37 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all ,

There is a new opportunity to people who would like to have  babies drug users

but also women who can’t get pregnant because of a physical problems ,
to get clean (with Ibo) , Then go to a health resort  with wild life  ,water falls

herbal healing  , craft , yoga, walks with guides, organic food clean rivers and for the people who

like cannabis it grows outside in sunlight as well as magic shrooms therapy . in south africa fare from a city .

all is done by a great african herbal healer,  with ceramony and a lot of positive

energy .

if people would like to have a healthy baby I think they should think about getting off any drugs

before and think about their own health to create a better start to a new spirit  .

with love ,

Sara

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] sterilization thoughts
Date: July 23, 2002 at 11:03:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi, these remarks are a bit “off-topic” for ibogaine, but I want to say that sterilization is a whole different ballgame for women than for men (no pun intended).  Women have a huge biological “investment” in reproduction – an adult life of menstruation, pregnancy, giving birth….that men usually can’t fathom.  (No offense to fathers intended, whether “good” or “bad” fathers; just saying it’s a difference).  While the topic of C.R.A.C.K. was about voluntary sterilization (for an insulting and i think immoral $200), I can’t imagine that the solution to the problem of addiction need be so drastic.  The letter was signed by a multitude of doctors who were against this idea, because yikes,even.  In the 20’s black teenage girls were paid to be sterilized; it was an outrage.
And I admit I was sort of offended by the author who kept referring to the “girls” he knew, (apparently he doesn’t know any women)at least one of whom he’d “gotten pregnant,” and then was off on what bad moms they were/would be.  What kind of nightmare partner and father would, after all that, decide sterilizing the women was the solution?  Dr. Strangelove?  I wonder what people would say if the plan were to sterilize all parents who had a DUI or two?  Plus, just to be sort of feminist here, the equivalent for males of female sterilization is NOT a vasectomy, but some kind of major surgery or removal.  Hmmmmm……how many would go for that?
I concur that there is a problem when addicted parents (male and female) bring children here that they can’t care for.  This is also true of many kinds of parents. Preston wrote movingly about that, however, and I agree that such babies can still thrive.  I have a friend who adopted two children of an addicted mom, when they were 4 and 6, and they are lovely kids with a very troubled mom-of-birth, but a fair chance of a good life.
I guess my main point though is that fertility is the nature of the planet we live on, and to end it, either by chopping out rainforest old growth or by tying the tubes of “unhealthy” women is not really a very strong solution.  It IS judgmental, and the judgment is made by people who think they are “better.”  Just musing, IMHO, as Nick used to say, and my 2 cents.  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better

From: “paul harvey” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] methadone and ibogaine treatment (a few thoughts)
Date: July 23, 2002 at 10:16:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

just to add a few thoughts to bretts reply to judith,regarding ibogaine and methadone.
this is my personal experience and is in no way intended to offer any generalised account concerning treatment of methadone addiction with ibogaine.as brett said, before you consider ibogaine treatment,get checked out medically and research the literature:its all there on the net.
I was on methadone and heroin ten years.(80mg/methadone and 0.5-1.0gr heroin daily) in this period i quit twice.the first time took place in a specialist hospital detox wing:it took one month and at the end of that month i was discharged straight into a drug rehabilitation unit.
subjectively,i would say it took three months before i felt i was approaching any base line of <normality> both physically/mentally.
ffwd>relapse
the second time i quit was six months ago,from a similar ammount of methadone and opiates using ibogaine hcl at 14mg/kg. I quit methadone completely with moderate to mild withdrawals when compared to the three months of hell i experienced first time around.(i took the ibogaine saturday night and on the monday,two days later i was able to walk two miles to collect my methadone script, which i gave away to a friend and have not touched it since.(for long term methadonians, such action sounds unreal, believe me, at the time i found my actions hard to believe and i was the one engaged in those actions)
in the intervening months i got myself lightly readdicted to heroin but quit two weeks ago,old school style and i am waiting to undergo ibogaine retreatment.

things i have learnt :

1>ibogaine is not a “cure”,it is a door of opportunity, which greatly allieviates opiate/opioid withdrawals and reduces cravings(compare three months to several days) : whether one chooses post-ibogaine to walk through that door and never look back or chooses to return to those closed repeating loops of thought, feeling and action, is down to the individual.

2> with ibogaine, you always need more than you think.i wished to god during my initial treatment i had at least another 500mg, which would have tallied with the suggested range of 20-25mg/kg for methadone/opiate addiction in order to generate the required subjective phase shift.- or in the days/weeks/months ahead – keep some handy – i wont let myself be without it again if the desire to use re-emerges after the next re-treatment

3>ibogaine has a strange fractal quality that self organises across all planes.its not a one shot deal,hence my desire for retreatment,it has many more stories to tell

to paraphrase neitzche :

THE DEEPER YOU LOOK INTO THE IBOGA PLANT, THE DEEPER IT LOOKS INTO YOU

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: The Whole Sterilization Thing
Date: July 23, 2002 at 6:30:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just as a passing thought … thinking through what would happen.  I’m not
entirely sure that offering a cash incentive to people for not having
kids, appeals THAT STRONGLY to desperation.

Okay, it’s $200 bucks.  Which is nice, if you have say, nothing.  However,
they are not gonna hand you the cash the moment you walk through the door,
it will be a PROCESS that takes MANY HOURS before you have that money in
your hand.

Many Hours during which you could go do SOMETHING ELSE to generate some
bux a LOT faster; such as sell your ass, boost something, or do whatever
your hustle(s) are/is, and be nice and straight, quite a while before that
whole entire $200 dollar scenario pans out.

This is my opinion anyway.  The only times I’ve ever had the patience to
put up with lines, and waiting, and all that bullshit, while sprung, is
when I’m already nice to begin with.  Otherwise, it’s like fuck that
noise, I’m gonna generate some flow right away, if not sooner, I do not
have the time to be sitting in waiting rooms, I have a very full time
career being a junkie, and WAITING is simply not part of the day’s plan.

Patrick

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to be more clear
Date: July 23, 2002 at 6:36:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria

I have been getting anecdotal testimonies from those that have taken
igo.  I just feel driven to find out as much as I can of the
experience.  I want to be able to stay off of methadone, is it too
late in life for it (should I stay with methadone)???   Is it safe
when you already are infected with HCV?….questions like that.
I received a very good testimony from B.Calabrese.  It has been the
best so far as testonies go.
If you have any thoughts to add, please feel free to write.  It will
be so appreciated.

Judith Ostergard…AMMO…

Do you know anyone who would want to put on an Ibogaine forum in K.C. or Omaha?

Dana/cnw

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaps ,
Date: July 23, 2002 at 6:09:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:48:41PM -0400], [Joatammmo23@aol.com] wrote:

| Sara
|
| So, you are saying that some will spend a couple of thousand just to get
| clean enough to start shooting dope again?  I’m sorry, but I don’t understand
| that.  How many treatments are necessary, or does it vary from person to
| person?

I spent, lessee, roughly $17k total (when you add up airfare, extras, all
that shit), and blew it out as soon as I got to the airport at San Juan.

Which is to say, post ibogaine [1] for me, left to my own devices, I
lasted roughly 18 minutes.

It was beautiful too, fucking AWESOME.  Truly a religious experience.

Money doesn’t have a lot to do with bangin’ up.  I mean, who cares.  It’s
only money, drugz are much better.

Having said all that, in Oct I have 3 years clear off heroin, or any other
opioid.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] sterilization
Date: July 23, 2002 at 5:34:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 05:29:22PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

I just read this, ‘cuz Preston wrote it, I’m doing 25 things at once,
reading this list would be the 26th, and I’ll do that sometime soon, but
just to mention; you can pick up an awful lot of extra cash by Taking Part
in Bold Medical Experiments.

I myself have made hunnets of dollahs, chain smoking for science, being
interviewed about my sex life while strung out, taking AIDS and Hep tests,
and playing Connect the Dots on questionnaires.

Usually any decent sized needle exchange, in any city with a population
greater than a few million, will have all kinds of MONEY MAKING
OPPORTUNITIES available — other than just steering the patrons to the
latest Hot Stamp I mean.

You can work the system for quite a while before the need arises to sell
you imaginery kids.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] sterilization
Date: July 23, 2002 at 5:29:22 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

gosh, if my teenaged birth-mother (who I never met and have no idea if she did drugs or not- nor much of anything else about her either for that matter- including the father’s name) had been sterilized instead of giving me up for adoption, I’d not have gotten “screwed up” on drugs, nor would I have had the opportunity to make my little part of the world a little better place. At my most depressed stages, I curse her and wonder why she didn’t simply abort, but in my better moments, I am pretty happy she didn’t, even more happy she wasn’t sterilized to begin with.
Of course, as noted, no one is discussing forced sterilizations now are we? OF course not- we’re talking about offering desperate junkies money for drugs to help cull the populace of those pesky poor stupid people, right?
Well, personally, I can’t help but think- what a fucked up idea. Then of course it occurs to me, I’m not planning on having kids, nor am I a junky. Can I get $200 to sterilize myself?
How far is it from offering $200 bucks, and forced sterilization making a COMEBACK in the US?

Forced Sterilizations
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/sterilize.html

http://www.africana.com/Utilities/Content.html?&../cgi-bin/banner.pl?banner=Blackworld&../Articles/tt_650.htm
The philosophy behind the eugenics movement is that intelligence, health, and social behavior are determined solely by genetic makeup. Popular in the United States, Britain, and Germany from early in the 20th century until World War II (1939-1945), eugenics dismisses the influence of social and economic factors on human behavior and advocates policies aimed at maintaining the “fitness” of a “superior” racial stock—that of white Anglo-Saxons.
snip-

Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Randy Hencken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hi

No, It would be a better world if George senior had had a vasectomy many
many years ago…

Randy
>From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: [ibogaine] hi
>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:00:00 +0200
>
>randy wrote ; A child who doesn’t get screwed up on drugs, a
>child who is able to contribute to the betterment of humankind .
>
>
>do you mean like Mr. Bush and his daughters ?
>
>Sara

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] war on drugs
Date: July 23, 2002 at 4:44:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria

Yes, I feel that it’s time for a party.  When will you be in the US?
I’m still a learner on this site so what is , or who is PP, or PK?  How does a patient from the US join you with the international coalition of reformers?

Judith Ostergard…AMMO…

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to be more clear
Date: July 23, 2002 at 4:34:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria

I have been getting anecdotal testimonies from those that have taken igo.  I just feel driven to find out as much as I can of the experience.  I want to be able to stay off of methadone, is it too late in life for it (should I stay with methadone)???   Is it safe when you already are infected with HCV?….questions like that.
I received a very good testimony from B.Calabrese.  It has been the best so far as testonies go.
If you have any thoughts to add, please feel free to write.  It will be so appreciated.

Judith Ostergard…AMMO…

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaps , OFF LIST
Date: July 23, 2002 at 3:50:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Judith,

How many treatments are necessary, or does it
vary from person to
person?

Speaking for addiction usually the physical addiction
is done in a 1 shot deal, in some patients,
particularly high dose methadone patients a 2nd dose
is necessary for the physical addiction. Some people
(rats too) are resistant to ibogaine, that is just how
it is but even these people (rats, dogs, cats, mice,
monkeys…) with repeated doses the success increases.
I would however suggest (IMO of course) that EVERYONE
being treated with ibogaine consider that they may
need more than one treatment or a booster
(particularly for opiate addicts), don’t get caught
short, it takes what it takes and often enough it
takes more than once.

I’m getting closer and closer to possibly leaving
the country for the real
thing (too bad that we have to run circles around
the FDA) to find our own
treatment.

Good luck – any questions/suggestions on that feel
free to ask. Whatever you do, FOLLOW PROTOCOL (I can’t
say this enough), get a physical/EKG/blood
chemistry/liver enzymes. OH, and don’t “move”. If you
are doing it yourself, consider a small booster or
tapering doses (I think you said you were on meth)
over the next few days if you need it, if not, maybe
just 1g a week later. If you are on a high dose of
meth, you may be able to cut it down but not eliminate
it, just cut the dose of meth way down (way, WAY down)
and bring it up just enough so you don’t get sick for
a week or so and do it again, you won’t need as much
the 2nd time even though someone else on the same
amount of methadone would require more ibo. It is
because you already did  some ibo and have your body
somewhat repaired and nor-ibogaine has already
saturated your system. Sorry for the babble, thinking
out loud, if you have questions you can ask.

I really don’t think that the methadone clinics
would appreciate ibogaine
becoming legal.

No, that is one reason ibogaine was made illegal in
the first place (don’t know if you knew this). I think
it was some BS story in NY about some people getting
busted cutting heroin with ibogaine – in ’69/70, you
have to be kidding, ibogaine was so rare and expensive
why in the world would anyone cut H with it? – unless
of course you are Nelson Rockafeller, happen to be
Governor of NY at the time and the Rockafeller
foundation just happens to own the rights to – oh, you
guessed it METHADONE!, then maybe you make a bust
happen and help make ibo illegal…

Brett

Judith Ostergard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 23, 2002 at 3:28:20 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria,

We do know that exercise is usually good at
stabilsing moods. many of us
know what kinds of foods to eat, or not
Others of us know about meditation, sleeping enough,
writing journals,
having something meaningful in our lives and a
relationship with our HPower,
best friend or whatever

Maybe “we” do but most people still deep in addiction
do not (they may have snips here and there). It is
something I often bring up but even “addiction
treatment professionals” usually focus on THE PROBLEM
and THE TREATMENT while they miss some obvious (and
really easy) solutions like diet, natural products,
meditation, sleep, HP/Spirituality, exercise… These
are some things addicts simply do not know how and
don’t usually get help sometimes because they are too
busy with important stuff like getting clean,
sometimes because they just refuse. I have even had AA
members (who should know better) say “NO” when I
suggest to the newcomer to get some exercise to burn
off that “negative energy” or deep breathing
exercises, instead it’s “lets keep em busy with Step
1… then on to step 2, that meditation stuff isn’t
till step 11 you know”.

Brett

That should keep your mood together well beyond
Friday – moderation in all
things Yoh!

Solidarity

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Jellking [mailto:jellking@yahoo.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 05:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Carrie says, “It’s too bad but ditto.

Short of that I don’t see anything changing except
everything getting worse and worse.

-carrie”

I know, and it does seem, especially in the U.S.
that humanity grows more
ignorant day by day.  I think, however, that if we
all who felt this way
could find some basic kind of self-responsibility
and fellowship, we could
begin to make a difference.  Since the people on
this list all seem to be
trying, it’s hard to know what else to do, but bit
by bit, I think we can
collectively “get our act together.”  At least I
think that on Wednesdays,
by Friday I may be all weirded out again!  Jane

_____

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos <http://autos.yahoo.com/>  – Get free
new car price quotes

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaps ,
Date: July 23, 2002 at 3:02:02 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yes, because they are not ready to quite ,

it is all up to the person’s will , if you have a strong will to stop you will have it easy to stay clean , if not  you’ll fall back,

then the only thing is to try again when you are ripe for it ,I wish you well , just be strong try to find a nice hobby

or a study  , keep yourself focused on finding your balance , like accupunture or yoga or tai-chi  or

other methodes you can find around where you live .

take care , be  well .

sara
—– Original Message —–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaps ,

Sara

So, you are saying that some will spend a couple of thousand just to get clean enough to start shooting dope again?  I’m sorry, but I don’t understand that.  How many treatments are necessary, or does it vary from person to person?
I’m getting closer and closer to possibly leaving the country for the real thing (too bad that we have to run circles around the FDA) to find our own treatment.
I really don’t think that the methadone clinics would appreciate ibogaine becoming legal.

Judith Ostergard

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaps ,
Date: July 23, 2002 at 2:48:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sara

So, you are saying that some will spend a couple of thousand just to get clean enough to start shooting dope again?  I’m sorry, but I don’t understand that.  How many treatments are necessary, or does it vary from person to person?
I’m getting closer and closer to possibly leaving the country for the real thing (too bad that we have to run circles around the FDA) to find our own treatment.
I really don’t think that the methadone clinics would appreciate ibogaine becoming legal.

Judith Ostergard

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 23, 2002 at 2:19:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Heck no!  The biggest struggle I’m having right now is to find a way to get off Effexor.

Don

In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:12:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

You don’t experiment anymore right?

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;                            ;,
,;                                  ;,
; ;          .           .         ; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 23, 2002 at 2:20:56 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When I get depressed, I think of throwing myself down the well; you are probably more into yourself than thank God.

But LSD down a well I have to say is NOT a harm-reduction idea that I would support; for some it could be chaos and semi-psychosis, or did I take that too seriously

Ibogaine & chips PLEASE!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 05:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

What does throwing Mormons down wells got to do with anything?

In a message dated 7/17/2002 8:52:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jellking@yahoo.com writes:

That’s funny (or not)!  When I get really depressed about the world, I think, “LSD in the wells, only solution.”  Jane

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 23, 2002 at 2:18:56 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jane others

We do know that exercise is usually good at stabilsing moods. many of us know what kinds of foods to eat, or not
Others of us know about meditation, sleeping enough, writing journals, having something meaningful in our lives and a relationship with our HPower, best friend or whatever

That should keep your mood together well beyond Friday – moderation in all things Yoh!

Solidarity

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Jellking [mailto:jellking@yahoo.com]
Sent: 18 July 2002 05:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Carrie says, “It’s too bad but ditto.

Short of that I don’t see anything changing except
everything getting worse and worse.

-carrie”
I know, and it does seem, especially in the U.S. that humanity grows more ignorant day by day.  I think, however, that if we all who felt this way could find some basic kind of self-responsibility and fellowship, we could begin to make a difference.  Since the people on this list all seem to be trying, it’s hard to know what else to do, but bit by bit, I think we can collectively “get our act together.”  At least I think that on Wednesdays, by Friday I may be all weirded out again!  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 23, 2002 at 2:14:18 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mmh, c what happens DEon when we let gangsters take over the marketing of plants; very dangerous indeed. AND of course, we on this list (as far as I know) most of us ANYWAY ARE EX/CURRENT ADDICTS WHICH INDICATES (OFTEN) that we may be vulnerable in other ways too

Plus, setting/set of the way one uses a drug is crucial; but hey that’s irrelevant to you? You don’t experiment anymore right?

Glad you’re feeling calmer

LOVE

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 17 July 2002 20:41
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!

Thanks for the kind words.

Yeah, I was going through an aggressive stage (probably because of the medication I’m on) when I read the thing about…….  Oh the heck with it.  I’m in too good of a mood now to think about the last couple of days.  Man, it’s never my intention to anger anyone with the Good News of Christ….  Bottom line:  I love you guys (even the heathens) 😉  I want everyone to have the salvation that God has offered us through Christ… Okay, I won’t say any more about that since this is about ibogaine.  That’s some kind of a plant isn’t it?  I can tell you all a funny story about plants.

Back in 1980 a friend and I went to the drive in to watch the movies “Fiendish Plot of Doctor Fu Man Chu” along with “Close Encounters of the Third Kind, special edition”.  We bought some weed from some people we didn’t know…  Hooray, we didn’t know at the time, but it was laced with PCP!  We were parked up front and center.  Toking away.  About mid way through Close Encounters, the PCP began to take effect… My eyeballs cracked!  I began to see things as if I was looking through broken glass.  Red flashes of light were exploding in my head.  I got out of my truck and stared up at the big screen…. The ship was coming down to devils tower….  BAM!  Next thing I know, I’m flat on my back.  There is a group of people around me..  Their noses are acting weird.  I’m still seeing explosions and flashes of light, and their noses are moving around on their faces.  I stand up and stagger to the bed of my pickup.  I fall again, but gr ab hold of the side.  Now the horns are honking in the theater as I’ve become the center of attention!  Next thing I know, we’re on the freeway.. My friend is driving like mad..  I end up in the hospital, strapped down to a bed… They are pumping something into me?  I overhear the nurses laughing.. “That’s what he gets for smoking marijuana”…. Yeah, that’s what I get.  I don’t smoke grass any more.  That experience  kinda ruined it for me.

In a message dated 7/17/2002 11:39:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vector6@space.com writes:

He does go on usenet and talk about videogames a lot.
And sign his text with

Neuroskull
Minister of Disinformation at the First Church of
MindVox/Escort Agency

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 23, 2002 at 2:03:53 PM EDT
To: “‘digital@phantom.com'” <digital@phantom.com>

Patrick

Loved reading this e-mail but honey we must stay focused. This is the
Ibogaine list, no?

PLEASE get Don to set up his own thing.

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 17 July 2002 18:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)

On [Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:12:33AM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| Don wrote
| >I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I
| against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this
| list and that’s why you see me here….P.S.S To my friend that invited
| me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a nuisance, you
| can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but I leave it up
| to you. <

Hey Don,

That’d be me.  Fully guilty.  Don has been on some of the other lists for
quite a while, he appears to be similar to many of us — the US that I
know, I can’t speak for everybody — he has some issues n things, he’s
somewhat crazy, and he loves his understanding of God a great deal.

For what it’s worth, people are people, Don loves Jesus, but then, on the
flipside of all that, he also signed himself into MindVox and stuck
around.  While we get a tremendous volume of hate mail and death threats,
from those who want to share God’s love, and have problems with our
existence, thoughts, and those JesusCrackHead banners Drew has running;
most of them don’t stick around after venting and explaining how God will
kill us all.  <shrug>

Go figure.  I’m not sure I understand that, but prolly I don’t need to,
and I have no problem accepting it.

Don, you are certainly as welcome to hang out as anyone, my only request
would echo whut Carrie asked, which is PLEASE don’t turn this into a
Jesus Or Else discussion that never ends.  There are many people present
here, who have all found different paths that lead to God.  One of them
would be me.  I’m not a Christian, a long time ago, in a universe far, far
away, I was raised a Roman Catholic Atheist, “forgiv me fadduh, for eye
haz sinned.  Prolly I shall do so again, but ahm doinz my very best heah.”
I presently belong to no organized religious faith, but many of my beliefs
find expression and a lotta resonance with Buddhism.

I am not a Buddhist.  I am a member of no organized religion.

None of this changes the fact that I like you (Don), and you are more than
welcome to hang around.  I have absolutely no problem with Christian
Fundamentalists, or anybody really.  For that matter you seem to do just
super-fine on the Vox list, where the only organized religion present is
either paganism or full-blown psychosis.  And, the psychotic pagans were
completely accepting of your two Great Works: Pre-Adamic Star Wars and
Abominable Hybrid Offspring of the Nephilim.  So, whatsa mattuh wid ewe?

I know you are VERY prolific, and could argue faith back and forth all day
and every day, but the reason I thought you might find this list of
interest was, see, okay, here are a lot of people, many of them with
severe problems they are overcoming, these are some of the things that
ibogaine does, some it doesn’t do, etcetera…

If you like I am more than happy to give you a JESUS list!  You can make
MindVox start radiating Jesus, because, well, why not.  I like the J man.

So, to conclude.  You’re not the only one with your beliefs on this list,
there is some lhuterson or lhutcherson (?) person who also likes to pop up
every so often, express her faith that JESUS is the answer to everything.
‘Cept, then she goes away for a while.  She doesn’t keep up a constant
barrage of this, which completely defocuses the purpose of this list.
Which is to talk about ibogaine, addiction, and then, everything on the
whole entire planet, most especially GOSSIP!  But not constantly.

Thusly: please chill a bit.  If you have any questions ’bout what ibogaine
does, well hey, you can ask.  If you have any insights about maintaining,
I agree with ya ’bout the hittin’ the gym part; just please do not try to
convert everyone — even if it’s fun or provides one helluva emotional
rush — because prolly, it won’t work, and just annoys people.

Thank yooz,

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 23, 2002 at 1:40:43 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOOK JESUS IS A DUDE, BUT THIS IS THE IBOGAINE LIST
Come on guys; the only very vague connection between JC and Iboga is that there is a similar inner/deep/spiritual thing going on with both of them, but this is a drug treatment list

Moreover, I have been through the born-again thing; in deed, i can’t think of too many crutches, leads, potions, rehabs etc I haven’t tried. LIFE experience has shown me that my praying when I need to but NOT PROSELYTISING is the best way. Don, your knowledge of the bible is impressive, but PLEASE recognise that this is a drug treatment list: PLEASE go somewhere else to save lives the way you think is best.

This is the (foetal stage) stuff of what happened in NYC last september; a so-called religious war. PLEASE take some deep breaths and think on this

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 July 2002 05:13
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)

Don wrote
>I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this list and that’s why you see me here….P.S.S To my friend that invited me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a nuisance, you can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but I leave it up to you. <

Uh-oh. Was someone bored and decided to see what would happen if a totally off-topic thread to ibogaine, (certainly not the first here, I myself being pretty guilty of said sin myself on occasion) were introduced onto the list? I can’t help now but suspect this is a jest, a prank of some sick twisted (and funny if so, and heck if not as well to be honest) sort designed to push buttons and inspire a whole lot of replies from passionate people also faintly bored.;-))
Has anyone on this list who HAS done ibogaine feel the same “Jesus is the only way” vibes? Does anyone here know anyone who converted to fundamentalist Christianity AFTER taking ibogaine?
Oh shit, I’m up past my bedtime again.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was Eric…is now Jesus and Ibogaine.

I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this list and that’s why you see me here.  I wholeheartedly believe in the Lord Jesus and that salvation is found only through Him.  With my apologies to Carrie, it’s not my intention to “spam” this list, offend anyone just for kicks or argue with the sole purpose of “proving myself right and everyone else wrong”.  Sincerely I tell you, I weep over those that are lost without Christ.  God/Christ are my life.  I have no life outside of Christ.  To some that may seem dismal, maybe even a bit sad.  But I voluntarily left the “world” so that I can more readily live for Christ.  I strive daily to have a faith that is pro-active…  Well, so much so that the line is blurred between what I strive for and! what I have become.  So, what I see, what Christ tells me through His Word the Bible.  Is that there are two choices in life.  God’s way, through Christ which leads to eternal life with God.  Or death and destruction in Hell.  I’m not forcing this on anyone.  I simply point to the way that leads to eternal life.  The way is Jesus Christ.  Those are His words, I only speak them because He commanded us believers to do so.  I know this causes some angry responses, Jesus said that it would.  But it must be done for there are those that desire to be saved, but just don’t know the way of escape yet.

You all don’t have to refer to me as Neuroskull (but ain’t it cool…!)  My name is Don.

P.S.  Oh.. my views… I wasn’t brought up in a “religious” household or anything like that.  It was quite bohemian actually.  I’d love to tell you more.. but, that would just end up changing the WHOLE focus of this thread… Some other time perhaps.

P.S.S To my friend that invited me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a nuisance, you can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but I leave it up to you.

In a message dated 7/16/2002 8:12:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

NeuroSkull,
Have you actually done ibogaine? Did you hold your current religious view before you took ibogaine if you have actually taken ibogaine?
Peace,
Preston

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this thro ugh, have 1…
Date: July 23, 2002 at 12:48:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s because Jesus is the I-Ching, the sum of all knowledge.  😉  the way, the truth and the life.

Don
(Just itching for the opportunity to speak of the Lord again..  I was going to say “pipe up for the Lord” but in these circles that takes on an entirely new meaning and offers a plethora of visual images best left in a Cheech & Chong movie)

In a message dated 7/23/2002 9:19:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:

Can I ask u guys to remember that this is the IBOGAINE list, and get Jesus
discussed on a religion/spirituality site

I’m starting to notice a pattern here. No matter what
the question is the answer is jesus?

Carla B

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;                            ;,
,;                                  ;,
; ;          .           .         ; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K.
Date: July 23, 2002 at 12:27:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Good morning everyone,

Geez, it seems I’ve stirred up some emotion with my last letter agreeing with C.R.A.C.K.  Sometimes I find it hard to get across what I truly think or fill in a little e-note like this.  I don’t blame those of you who responded to me for thinking that I am “judging” “hating” “a pretentious dork” etc.  I am only writing from my life experience and from what I’ve seen in the 4 methadone clinics that I attended and the dozen or more that I have gone to work at and the hundreds of people on methadone whom I’ve spoken with.  And I still feel the same.  [Preston] I never said that I would “tell someone else they can’t have a child”.  I simply said that I agree with the monetary incentive to stop desperate people from having children.  Can we agree that if someone is willing to trade in their ability to have a child for two hundred bucks than at least for that moment in time we (society) are better off without them having children.  Yes there would be casualties from a program like this(as I admitted earlier I might have had a vasectomy).  What would be better? – most people who are unfit to raise children don’t or the few that become fit can’t.

Carla- in the dog eat dog world that we live in – “caring for someone” is not always enough.  Parents need to be able to provide…

What experiences have I had that make me so “judging”?:
Girl #1 Ran away from her court ordered rehab to live with me and my girlfriend in colorado 1n 1999.  She had been on and off with this asshole junkie boyfriend.  While she was with us she had lots of unprotected sex with one of our friend who we all knew had hep c. Eventually she returned to her ex in michigan got back on methadone, got pregnant and got put in jail.  The ex-boyfriend is serving some 15 years in the penn.  I know this girl and I really feel bad for her child.  He just is not going to have the shining opportunities that a well-balanced mom could give him.

Girl #2.  this girl is brilliant, graduated valedictorian of her high school.  Unfortunately that was her last great accomplishment.  Anorexia, speed addiction, crack addiction, morphine addiction and now methadone dependence have ruled her life for the last 10 years.  At 28 she just gave birth to a beautiful baby girl.  The dad used to beat her so he is not involved in her life.  Mom lives at home with her parents.  The babies first week in this world was spent in withdrawal.  Girl #2 hasn’t been able to make a good decision in 10 years. Do you think her having a child (she really cares about) was a good decision?

Girl #3.  My ex-girlfriend.  We spent years shooting dope together.  I got her pregnant twice.  Fortunately she had a miscarriage and an abortion.  She spent last year living on the streets of denver stealing and shooting cocaine and going to a methadone clinic.  she spent six weeks in the I.C.U.
from an infection in her arm that spread to her heart.  This did not stop
her from using. eventually the law caught up with her and she was sent to the state hospital.  she only stayed there for three months, she was supposed to stay for 6 months.  She got out moved into a YMCA, continues to be on methadone and started dating Leroy.  Leroy is on parole for violent behavior and already has two other children from two different women, now he is about to have a third.  Maybe I shouldn’t judge who is smart and who is dumb, BUT I was smart enough not to have a kid with this girl.  She has a truck load of problems.

Girl #4.  32 years old been on methadone for over ten years.  she lives at home with her parents. she can’t even raise her Pug properly.  Now she got pregnant one drunk night by a guy who doesn’t even know she is pregnant.  But she is so selfish that she is going to keep the child.

None of these 4 babies are going to have the opportunities that the average american child will have.  I’m sure all these moms will “care” about their babies but none of them are fit to have one. THEY CAN’T EVEN TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES.

I never said that we should force sterilization on anyone, but what is wrong with encouraging it?  Society will be better off with less children, especially in america.  What did someone say an american use  %80(?) of the worlds resources.

I believe that we should offer every living person the best quality of life they can have.  For some people it is methadone for others it is crack. and that is all fine with me I really want them to have a great life, just don’t raise children.

Rick, I would really like to see the figures you refer to.

Until I get inspired to write more,
Randy

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this thro ugh, have 10…
Date: July 23, 2002 at 12:21:29 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Can I ask u guys to remember that this is the IBOGAINE list, and get Jesus
discussed on a religion/spirituality site
I love u Americans; u have som many ideas, passions, feelings of generosity.
As soon as u’ve benefitted from something u wanna give it to somebody else
On this list, can we have more Ibogaine please?

(Back from Dublin/Ireland) and a conference about Drugs & Homelessness, with
a New Yorker key-speaker

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 16 July 2002 23:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

I’m starting to notice a pattern here. No matter what
the question is the answer is jesus?

Carla B

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
Then you my friend want Jesus Christ!  For Jesus
Christ said:

John 10:10
I have come that they may have life, and that they
may have it more
abundantly.

In a message dated 7/16/2002 1:22:06 PM Pacific
Daylight Time,
digital@phantom.com writes:

I personally found much
greater resonance with “I am a Nexus One, I want
more Life Fucker I ain’t
done,” which in actuality is a lyric by Rob
Zombie, and not authorized for
spiritual reintegration, religious use, and
repeating it without written

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hi
Date: July 23, 2002 at 11:06:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No, It would be a better world if George senior had had a vasectomy many many years ago…

Randy
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] hi
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:00:00 +0200

randy wrote ; A child who doesn’t get screwed up on drugs, a
child who is able to contribute to the betterment of humankind .

do you mean like Mr. Bush and his daughters ?

Sara

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 23, 2002 at 10:26:34 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not?

The person getting sterilized, seems very reasonable
to me. And for the money that they are likely to use
for drugs, well that goes for the welfare check,
pay-check or any other check they get their hands on.
This is not forced sterilization, it is $200 (rebate)
should someone choose to get sterilized OR (and you
seemed to focus on the sterilization part) long term
birth control.

When does simple drug use become reason enough to
sterilize mothers?

I don’t see anyone being forced to do any such thing,
no suggestion or hint of such – though really, I
personally think there are cases where a person should
be forcibly sterilized, at any age (eg, sorry MS 17
year old but you had a child at 12, another at 14,
another at 15, another at 17, you are unmarried, had
all 4 children taken away because of abuse and your
drug addiction and you are pregnant again…). But
that is my “opinion” but maybe I am looking at it like
MOM made her decisions about her life and shouldn’t be
allowed (at some point) to have her children suffer
for her disease. Sorry but I just don’t see a problem
with someone taking the choice to be sterilized or use
specific birth control methods as some violation of
morality.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: “G. Ratte'” <z3kpw@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 23, 2002 at 10:18:47 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Which is what that CRACK paper is all about,
controlling blacks and other minorities who are
already in trouble and offering the chance to go get
high with a quick $200 which they will take and then
never have the chance to have a child even if they
ever do get their lives together.

How is this controlling anybody, where are you guys coming up with that?
They’re offering 200 bucks to get sterilized.  Nobody’s forced to do
anything.  There’ve been times when I’m more broke than now that I’d jump at
that, sounds like a good deal.  There are plenty of kids to adopt anyways; no
shortage of orphan kids in the world if you wanna be a parent.

I’m looking at this as population control.  I think China’s birth policy is
ballsy, at least they’re willing to deal with their problem instead of the
west’s ‘plan’ of “Hmm, well, maybe you shouldn’t have sex!”  Duh.

Man.  The vast majority of white folks don’t live Lizzie Grubman existences,
no matter how you grew up.  I’ve spent a lot of my life as poor white
southern t… I don’t like to say it, anyhow- to paint this as “the rich
white people are trying to exterminate the poor blacks & other minorities” is
insulting.

take care-

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 23, 2002 at 6:49:26 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

With all due respect, you may feel as though you “understand” the
opposing viewpoint, but your position reflects no small amt. of
ignorance.  You are anot an exception.  The majority on methadone DO end
up clean and successful.  At least that’s what all the research
indicates.  Likewise, it seems to be reflected at this clinic as well.
85% of our patients are consistently drug-free and have jobs.

Those “godforsaken methadone clinics” save a lot of lives, decrease
crime, the spread of disease, etc.  In addition, those “godforsaken
addicts” are called people. People with mothers, fathers, wives,
husbands, and the same hopes and dreams as you.  I’m not sure how you
can call yourself an “advocate of methadone maintenance” and hold this
kind of perspective.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

randyhencken@hotmail.com 07/22/02 07:07PM >>>
Also I am an advocate of methadone maintenance and I
believe in many circumstances that methadone is a good program.

Also, I am the exception most people who get on methadone don’t end
up clean and successful.

They live the rest of their lives going to those godforsaken methadone
clinics
being surrounded by godforsaken addicts.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 23, 2002 at 5:47:07 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bottom line- who the hell is anyone to tell someone else they can’t have a child because they do drugs? (and NO, I myself do NOT have kids, and do not plan to either, ever.)
Yes, there are parents who I too think when I see them surrounded by kids, on welfare and struggling and complaining they can’t feed them all, “hey lady/man, ever heard of birth control?” but sterilizing these mothers? Jesus fucking christ, (excuse my plain english) what is wrong with people? Who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not? When does simple drug use become reason enough to sterilize mothers? I got an idea, let’s just sterilize all alcohol drinking and cigarette smoking mothers too, while we citizens gladly shell out tons of our money to fund wars, prisons, corporate criminality, but god forbid we take care of each other. Naw, forget that, let’s fucking sterilize those pesky lower-class druggies.
Does anyone really think someone in Noelle Bush’s social stratum would face sterilization?
Just my two cents. This is really truly fascist folks. I’m sure some are not going to like my saying that too, and I don’t fucking care. I am gobbsmacked that there are people seriously thinking and worse saying and writing, “hey, what a great idea! THOSE people aren’t fit to raise kids.”
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Randy Hencken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments

Well, I’m guessing that most of you won’t like what I’m about to say, but I
agree with what CRACK is doing.  I am not a racist nor do I wish to target
low income families.  Also I am an advocate of methadone maintenance and I
believe in many circumstances that methadone is a good program.  “Why do you
agree with Crack” you ask.  Because the other day I learned of another
female friend of mine who has been strung out on methadone for over 10 years
(she is only 32) is pregnant.  Bringing the grand total of my female friends
on methadone who get pregnant and keep their babies to four. Now I know each
one of these four girls very well and I assure you that none of them are fit
to raise a child.  You all know girls like this, so I don’t think I need to
go into the details as to how troubled these girls are.

Let’s look at the big picture.  What is more important protecting the few
women who someday might be responsible enough while on methadone to have a
child or protecting society from having children grow up in less then
adequate environments (protecting children from bad parents).  There are
over 6 billion people on the planet.  Over population is one of the biggest
threats to human existence.  Another great threat is stupid people.  Where
do stupid people come from? Stupid parents.

Before someone gives me a rebuttal, let me say that I fully understand the
opposing position.  I simply do not agree with it.  Yes, maybe a couple
years ago I may have had a vasectomy to get two hundred dollars to score
dope.  And now I wouldn’t be able to have my own child, even though I put
the past behind me and I am a responsible successful young man. Oh Well.  I
would have to adopt a kid if I really wanted one.  Also, I am the exception
most people who get on methadone don’t end up clean and successful.  They
live the rest of their lives going to those godforsaken methadone clinics
being surrounded by godforsaken addicts.

I have frequented many methadone clinics, and this is just a guess, but I
would think that less then %4 of the people in the clinics will be fit to
raise a child some day.  A child who doesn’t get screwed up on drugs, a
child who is able to contribute to the betterment of humankind.

I wish I had more time to try and articulate my thoughts on this, but I have
to much to do now.  Please take the time to really think if CRACK is a group
of villains or maybe they are a group that is moving one thing in the right
direction.  Maybe someday there won’t be kids raised by junkie-crackhead
parents.

Randy
>From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:35:43 -0700 (PDT)
>
>OOPS, sorry bout that, finger slipped.
>
>http://www.atwatchdog.org/opinion_crack.html
>
>C.R.A.C.K. targets Methadone Maintenance Patients
>An organization called C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
>patients on methadone maintenance with their offer of
>$200 to submit to sterilization or limited birth
>control methods. Form letters are being sent to
>clinics across the U.S.
>
>C.R.A.C.K.- Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity
>otherwise known as is mailing form letters to U.S.
>Opiate Treatment Programs. C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
>methadone maintenance patients for coercive
>sterilization or limited birth control options. Please
>help prevent this violation of human and civil rights
>that threatens reproduction freedom.
>
>
>——————————————————————————–
>
>The form letter being sent to clinic reads:
>
>To Whom It May Concern:
>
>Our organization offers cash incentives to both men
>and women that are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol to
>use long-term or permanent birth control.
>
>We are currently working with several methadone
>clinics that make our offer known, and available to
>the women and men who come through their program. I’m
>sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
>important for those using methadone or other drugs to
>refrain from getting pregnant.
>
>Please call (888) 30-CRACK if you would like more
>information, or more of the items that have been
>enclosed.
>
>Our program is currently in over 20 cities nationwide,
>and has paid over 600 men and women to obtain
>long-term birth control. Thank you for the time , and
>we hope to establish a working relationship with you,
>for both the benefit of the woman, and potential
>child.
>
>Sincerely
>
>Barbara Harris
>Founder and Director
>C.R.A.C.K.
>11642 Knott Ave. Suite 8
>Garden Grove, CA 92841
>Phone: 714-901-9862
>FAX: 714-901-9832
>
>
>
>——————————————————————————–
>
>By offering patients $200 to entice them to undergo
>sterilization or use selected birth control methods,
>C.R.A.C.K. is sending the message that methadone is
>’just another drug’ and patients are using it as a
>substitute for illicit opiates. By supporting
>C.R.A.C.K., programs are sending the same message to
>their patients.
>Please support and respect your patients and your
>program by mailing the form letters back to C.R.A.C.K.
>with a loud ‘NO!’.
>
>
>——————————————————————————–
>
>- CRACK’s Washington, DC Chapter placed ads in DC
>Metrobuses that targeted primarily low-income and
>predominately African-American communities in DC. Ads
>are targeting low-income, African -Americans. One of
>CRACK’s supporters and financial contributors is Chris
>Brand, a British psychologist – Brand, a
>self-proclaimed “race realist,” claims that blacks are
>intellectually inferior to whites, and advocates
>taking a “eugenic” approach to “wanton and criminal
>females.” see
>http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html
>
>
>- CRACK violates civil and human rights, and
>reproductive freedoms by targeting minorities and
>low-income people. This small amount of cash is
>offered for sterilization or birth control without
>regard to the individual’s circumstances or future.
>
>- CRACK limits birth control options. CRACK LIMITS
>BIRTH CONTROL OPTIONS. CRACK irresponsibly limits
>birth control options by compensating only for
>long-term, provider-controlled methods: tubal
>ligation, Norplant, Depo-Provera and IUDs. Barrier
>methods and methods which protect against HIV
>infection and other sexually transmitted diseases are
>not compensated. CRACK may actually increase a woman’s
>risk of contracting HIV or other STDs, since it
>exclusively advances birth control methods which
>provide no protection against these infections.
>
>- CRACK’s founder admits that the money given to these
>individuals is probably used to buy more drugs, and
>says that is their choice.
>
>- If CRACK was really concerned about infants born to
>drug-addicted parents, they should spend the $200 on
>treatment for the parents, not sterilization or birth
>control.
>
>- CRACK is offering a ‘bribe’ to drug addicted women.
>They are being coerced because of their desperate need
>for money to buy drugs. Their drug addiction is being
>used to exploit them. CRACK targets vulnerable women
>with few options.
>
>- Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a supporter. Need I say
>more?
>
>- Harris says. “People say it is a disease, fine. But
>it is a disease of choice — however they got there
>and whatever their background and however screwed up
>their life is….”
>http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html
>
>
>- “Harris’ critics also warn about the slippery slope.
>”Today it is targeting and criminalizing drug abuse,
>but what will it be tomorrow?” asks the ACLU’s
>Cordoba. “If you take it to its logical conclusion,
>you could have a program or policy that monitors the
>kind of food a woman eats while she is pregnant, or
>whether she exercises enough, or whether she has a
>glass of wine or a cup of coffee.” Blum voices similar
>concerns. “Where does it stop? Next do we start
>sterilizing people who don’t take their
>multivitamins?””
>http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html
>
>
>-CRACK’s disregard for the women it targets is
>evidenced in Barbara Harris’ statement: “We don’t
>allow dogs to breed. We spay them. We neuter them. We
>try to keep them from having unwanted puppies, and yet
>these women are literally having litters of
>children..”
>
>- CRACK denies poor, marginalized women with substance
>abuse problems their procreative ability, and this is
>a human rights violation.
>http://www.cwpe.org/old_website/pdf/crackfacts.pdf
>
>See Family Watch letter to CRACK
>http://www.familywatch.org/crack.htm
>
>Salon
>-
>http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html
>
>Mother Jones
>http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html
>
>
>Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
>http://www.cwpe.org/index1.html
>
>American Public Health Association
>http://www.apha.org/legislative/policy/policysearch/index.cfm?fuseaction=view&id=261
>
>
>Who’s next? Where will this end? Which group of people
>will be next on C.R.A.C.K.’s list of victims?
>
>
>
>
>— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM,
> > ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
> >
> > >Hey Howard,
> > >Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can
> > link to it at Drugwar.com?
> > >Thanks.
> > >peace,
> > >Preston
> >
> > Preston,
> >
> > The letter originated with
> > http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
> > didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that
> > Barbara Harris and
> > C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.
> >
> > Howard
> > *********
> >  —– Original Message —–
> >
> >   From: HSLotsof@aol.com
> >
> >   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >
> >   Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM
> >
> >   Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
> >
> >
> >
> >   Barbara Harris
> >
> >   Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s
> >
> >   “Project Prevention”
> >
> >   P.O. Box 74
> >
> >   Stanton, CA 90680
> >
> >
> >   Dear Ms. Harris:
> >
> >
> >   We are writing to express our strong objections to
> > your distribution of
> >
> >   highly misleading and completely inaccurate
> > information regarding pregnant
> >
> >   women and methadone treatment. In a letter date
> > February 22, 2002, you
> > state,
> >
> >   in part:
> >
> >
> >   “We are currently working with several methadone
> > clinics that make our
> > offer
> >
> >   known, and available, to the women and men who
> > come through their program.
> >
> >   I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
> > important for those
> > using
> >
> >   methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting
> > pregnant.”
> >
> >
> >   We most certainly do not agree. Your statement,
> > suggesting that it is
> >
> >   dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically
> > prescribed methadone
> >
> >   treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong.
> > Methadone is a highly
> >
> >   effective treatment for all opiate dependent
> > patients and, most
> > specifically,
> >
> >   for women – both before and after they may become
> > pregnant. In fact,
> > methadone
> >
> >    treatment during pregnancy has not been
> > associated with congenital
> >
> >   abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases
> > where neonatal withdrawal
> >
> >   symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these
> > symptoms can be treated
> >
> >   readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on
> > physical or cognitive
> >
> >   development. In short, there is simply no medical
> > basis for your suggestion
> >
> >   that methadone patients should “refrain from
> > getting pregnant.”
> >
> >
> >   For over 30 years, in countries throughout the
> > world, methadone maintenance
> >
> >   treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially
> > reduce illegal opiate use
> > and
> >
> >   the crime, illness, suffering, and death with
> > which it is associated. The
> >
> >   benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to
> > the individual patient, but
> >
> >   to his/her family and the community, as well. The
> > most credible and
> > objective
> >
> >   governmental and non-governmental organizations in
> > America and abroad have
> >
> >   recognized these positive results with MMT. For
> > example, the US Department
> > of
> >
> >   Health and Human Services joins the scientific
> > community in recognizing
> > that
> >
> >   MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the
> > general community. It is
> >
> >   specifically recommended for pregnant and
> > breast-feeding patients, which
> >
> >   further demonstrates the strong medical consensus
> > supporting methadone
> >
> >   treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.
> >
> >
> >   Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many
> > benefits, it is available
> >
> >   to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it.
> > Women, in particular,
> > face
> >
> >   numerous barriers to obtaining this important
> > medical intervention. Your
> >
> >   letter and activities, which spread false
> > information and stigmatize
> > current
> >
> >   and future mothers who receive this treatment,
> > will make it even more
> >
> >   difficult for women who need methadone treatment
> > to receive it.
> >
> >
> >   We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter
> > immediately and to advise
> > each
> >
> >   of those individuals and clinics who received it
> > that it was based on
> >
> >   misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that
> > you publicly repudiate
> > the
> >
> >   inaccurate message you conveyed on your
> > organization’s website and in other
> >
> >   public and media context. Not to do so would be
> > irresponsible and a great
> >
> >   disservice to those whose interests you claim to
> > have at heart.
> >
> >
> >   Signed,
> >
> >
> >
> >   Signatories
> >
> >
> >   1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and
> > Psychiatry, Case Western
> >
> >   Reserve University, School of Medicine
> >
> >   2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of
> > Pediatrics, Albert Einstein
> >
> >   College of Medicine
> >
> >   3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of
> > Pediatrics, Beth Israel
> >
> >   Medical Center
> >
> >   4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de
> > Rothschild Chemical
> >
> >   Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center
> >
> >
> >   5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant
> > Development Center, Women and
> >
> >   Infants’ Hospital
> >
> >   6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of
> > Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas
> >
> >   University Medical Center
> >
> >   7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston
> > University School of Social
> > Work,
> >
> >   Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research
> > and Training
> >
> >   8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training
> > Consultant, Former
> > Assistant
> >
> >   Director of Research, Chemical Dependency
> > Institute, Beth Israel Medical
> >
> >   Center
> >
> >   9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal
> > Medicine, Penn State Hershey
> >
> >   Medical Center
> >
> >   10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of
> > OB/GYN, University of Chicago
> >
> >   11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor,
> > Department of OB/GYN, NYU
> > School
> >
> >   of Medicine
> >
> >   12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of
> > Public Health and OB/GYN,
> >
> >   Columbia University, Mailman School of Public
> > Health
> >
> >   13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of
> > OB/GYN, University
> >
> >   Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve
> > University School of Medicine
> >
> >   14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health
> > Education Center, Dept. of
> > OB/GYN
> >
> >   15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of
> > Medicine, University of New
> > Mexico
> >
> >   16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary
> > Care, NYU School of Medicine
> >
> >   17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of
> > Epidemiology and Social Medicine,
> >
> >   Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School
> > of Medicine
> >
> >   18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the
> > Practice of Medical Ethics,
> >
> >   Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and
> > Humanities, Duke University
> >
> >   Medical Center
> >
> >   19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate
> > Professor, Department of
> >
> >   Psychiatry, University of Chicago
> >
> >   20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor,
> > Dept. of Sociology, UC
> > Santa
> >
> >   Cruz
> >
> >   21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
> > Washington University
> >
> >   22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor
> > of Sociology, UC Santa
> > Cruz
> >
> >   23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health
> > Policy and Management,
> >
> >   Wagner/NYU
> >
> >   24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor
> > of Nursing,
> > Women’s
> >
> >   Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction,
> > Dominican University of
> >
> >   California
> >
> >   25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director
> > of the Chemical
> > Dependency
> >
> >   Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center
> >
> >   26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild
> > Chemical Dependency Institute
> >
> >   of Beth Israel Medical Center
> >
> >   27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
> > Rensselaer Polytechnic
> >
> >   Institute
> >
> >   28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor,
> > University of Illinois at
> > Chicago
> >
> >   29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of
> > Public Health & Health
> >
> >   Services
> >
> >   30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate
> > Professor, Rutgers University
> >
> >   31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
> > Rutgers University
> >
> >   32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of
> > Sociology, Anthropology and
> > Criminal
> >
> >   Justice,
> >
> >   Rutgers University
> >
> >   33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant
> > Professor, Princeton University
> >
> >   34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor,
> > University of Iowa
> >
> >   35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
> > Fordham University
> >
> >   36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate
> > Professor, University of Chicago
> >
> >   37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College
> >
> >   38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor,
> > Evergreen State College
> >
> >   39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center
> > for Urban Epidemiologic
> >
> >   Studies, New York Academy of Medicine
> >
> >   40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for
> > Scientific Analysis
> >
> >   41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health
> > Partners
> >
> >   42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN,
> > Mountain Area Health Education
> >
> >   Center
> >
> >   43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants
> > Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,
> >
> >   Mountain Area Health Education Center
> >
> >   44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women’s Health,
> > Mountain Area Health Education
> >
> >   Center
> >
> >   45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator,
> > Mountain Area Perinatal
> >
> >   Substance Abuse Program
> >
> >   46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain
> > Area Perinatal Substance
> >
> >   Abuse Program
> >
> >   47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior
> > Medicine, Mountain Area
> >
> >   Health Education Center
> >
> >   48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area
> > Health Education Center
> >
> >   49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area
> > Health Education Center
> >
> >   50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction
> > Specialist, Mountain Area
> >
> >   Health Education Center
> >
> >   51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal
> > Substance Abuse Program
> >
> >   52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE
> >
> >   53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm
> > Reduction Project
> >
> >   54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D
> >
> >   55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.
> >
> >   56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian
> >
> >   57. National Women’s Health Network
> >
> >   58. National Black Women’s Health Project
> >
> >   59. National Association for Public Health Policy
> > Council on Illicit Drugs
> >
> >   60. Institute for Health and Recovery
> >
> >   61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
> >
> >   62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
> > of Arkansas & Oklahoma
> >
> >   63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
> > of DC
> >
> >   64. Connecticut Women’s Consortium
> >
> >   65. Casa Segura
> >
> >   66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center
> >
> >   67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog
> >
> >   68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic
> >
> >   69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates
> >
> >   70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
> >
> >   71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention
> > Project
> >
> >   72. AIDS Project New Haven
> >
> >   73. HIV Law Project
> >
> >   74. ASPIRE
> >
> >   75. Drug Policy Alliance
> >
> >   76. Urban Justice Center
> >
> >   77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute
> >
> >   78. Center for Human Rights Education
> >
> >   79. Family Watch
> >
> >   80. Committee on Women, Population, and the
> > Environment
> >
> >   81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS
> >
> >   82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners
> >
> >   83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children
> >
> >   84. NORML Foundation
> >
> >   85. Common Sense for Drug Policy
> >
> >   86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii
> >
> >   87. ReconsiDer
> >
> >   88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse
> >
> >   89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War
> >
> >   90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm
> > Reduction Coalition
> >
> >   91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense
> > for Drug Policy
> >
> >   92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML
> >
> >   93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont
> > Harm Reduction Coalition
> >
> >   94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care
> > Methadone Clinic
> >
> >   95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services
> > for Prisoners with
> >
> >   Children
> >
> >   96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction
> > Services, Cambridge Cares
> > About
> >
> >   AIDS
> >
> >   97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program
> > Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
> > About
> >
> >   AIDS
> >
> >   98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport
> > Health Department
> >
> >   99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and
> > Recovery
> >
> >   100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population,
> > and the Environment
> >
> >   101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside
> >
> >   102. Stephanie Manfre, Children’s Case
> > Manager, Riley Center
> >
> >   103. Ann Beck, Riley Center
> >
> >   104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center
> >
> >   105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center
> >
> >   106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House
> >
> >   107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center
> >
> >   108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center
> >
> >   109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center
> >
> >   110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center
> >
> >   111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center
> >
> >   112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center
> >
> >   113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of
> > Public Health
> >
> >   114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of
> > Public Health
> >
> >   115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of
> > Public Health
> >
> >   116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and
> > Abuse
> >
> >   117. Theryn Kigvamasud’Vashti, Communities
> > Against Rape and Abuse
> >
> >   118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator,
> > Communities Against Rape and Abuse
> >
> >   119. Shane Felles
> >
> >   120. Brion Roberts
> >
> >   121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access
> > Project
> >
> >   122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director,
> > NARAL – NH
> >
> >   123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund
> >
> >   124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety
> > First Project, Drug Policy
> >
> >   Alliance
> >
> >   125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical
> > Center
> >
> >   126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive
> > Director, Neighborhood Youth &
> >
> >   Family Services
> >
> >   127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System
> >
> >   128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico
> > Prenatal Care Network,
> >
> >   University of New Mexico
> >
> >   129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug
> > Dependence
> >
> >   130. Gloria Knighton
> >
> >   131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions
> >
> >   132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
> >
> >   133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 23, 2002 at 4:05:49 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Garden Grove!  Hey, that’s a nice part of town.  I drive through there on the 22 when going to the Block Shopping mall.

Don

In a message dated 7/22/2002 11:21:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:

> >Barbara Harris
> >Founder and Director
> >C.R.A.C.K.
> >11642 Knott Ave. Suite 8
> >Garden Grove, CA 92841
> >Phone: 714-901-9862
> >FAX: 714-901-9832

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
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| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] who is stupid ?
Date: July 23, 2002 at 3:41:38 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla wrote : “That’s such a great memory to have, when I was younger
I needed $200 so bad I sold any children I might ever
have.”
in India they got a small radio that was about 25 years ago in the time of Indira Gandi ,
that was a lot for an untouchables ,

so some men came twice for sterilization .
they didn’t care if they could get childeren or not they were happy to get a radio twice.

randy wrote:
There are
“over 6 billion people on the planet.  Over population is one of the biggest
threats to human existence.  Another great threat is stupid people.  Where
do stupid people come from? Stupid parents.”

the last news from Africa over population is that 70 million people will die

with in 20years from HIV  ,that only  Africe I don’t know what numbers they have got  about Asia ,

I think that if the U.S.A ( %5 of the world  population) wouldn’t be using 75% of the world energy and if they wouldn’t

spend so much money for wapens that money could be used for education and better homes and welfare for those

“STUPID ”  people .

Sara

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 23, 2002 at 2:20:55 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is so like a charged thing. And what you made is
the total guy response. It is not the best thing to
have children and bring them up into that. But what
does that have to do with caring for someone? You were
also totally offensive to people on methadone
maintence and just dismissed them all as drug addicts.
Patrick pulls that too but I let it go because either
he’s very diplomatic which in his case is so doubtful
or because he goes off about why it was awful for him
and admits it does work for people. You just dissed
out everyone who is on methadone and has gotten it
together. Methadone helps a lot of people and I know
so many women who say the most important thing in
their life is their baby and it makes it worth it to
try and keep it together.

I know there’s totally being negligent and there’s
being a bad parent, but even this place I mean looking
at it is awesome Mindvox is cool, but reading some of
what at least Patrick is writing it is full of sarcasm
and irony and a big fuck you to his parents, Bruce
does the same thing. And I am not dissing either one
of them ok? two smart guys who are all that and have
parents who are rich and they hate them. This is so
common with almost anyone I know who has any money
it’s like my parents, who are they these assholes who
hired other people to raise me and don’t want me to
embarrass them, so I’m going to do everything I can do
make their nightmares come true. You maybe should run
your theory by some of the people who detox at St.
Kitts and no offense I’m sure there are a lot of nice
ones but almost the only ones who ever say anything on
this list dump a huge list of problems insult people
and then leave.

I haven’t seen any kind of relation to what people are
like depending on whether or not people have money.
Which is what that CRACK paper is all about,
controlling blacks and other minorities who are
already in trouble and offering the chance to go get
high with a quick $200 which they will take and then
never have the chance to have a child even if they
ever do get their lives together.

That’s such a great memory to have, when I was younger
I needed $200 so bad I sold any children I might ever
have.

And that’s just the start, your message is so totally
aggravating in so many places I could keep going, you
dismiss stupid people which means what? You’re a smart
person to make all those judgments, what is it that
you’ve ever done which is so great, to look down on
everyone and judge them? Which is what your letter is
filled with.

Maybe you’re having a bad day and sure I can accept
that, but most of what came through in your message is
a lot of anger and resentment at people.

Maybe someday there won’t be kids raised
by junkie-crackhead
parents.

What is it that you were to make you hate so much? All
that you’ve got there is you’re a middle class white
guy and very proud of being a middle class white guy
who looks down on I could make a list but from what I
remember junkies, crackheads, people on methadone,
poor people, people who are not productive according
to whatever standard you have and people you judge as
stupid.

By the way I’m white, 28, had a few abortions, having
a fucked up life and really not interested in having
some pretentious dork map out his version of a future
for everyone.

Carla B

— Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well, I’m guessing that most of you won’t like what
I’m about to say, but I
agree with what CRACK is doing.  I am not a racist
nor do I wish to target
low income families.  Also I am an advocate of
methadone maintenance and I
believe in many circumstances that methadone is a
good program.  “Why do you
agree with Crack” you ask.  Because the other day I
learned of another
female friend of mine who has been strung out on
methadone for over 10 years
(she is only 32) is pregnant.  Bringing the grand
total of my female friends
on methadone who get pregnant and keep their babies
to four. Now I know each
one of these four girls very well and I assure you
that none of them are fit
to raise a child.  You all know girls like this, so
I don’t think I need to
go into the details as to how troubled these girls
are.

Let’s look at the big picture.  What is more
important protecting the few
women who someday might be responsible enough while
on methadone to have a
child or protecting society from having children
grow up in less then
adequate environments (protecting children from bad
parents).  There are
over 6 billion people on the planet.  Over
population is one of the biggest
threats to human existence.  Another great threat is
stupid people.  Where
do stupid people come from? Stupid parents.

Before someone gives me a rebuttal, let me say that
I fully understand the
opposing position.  I simply do not agree with it.
Yes, maybe a couple
years ago I may have had a vasectomy to get two
hundred dollars to score
dope.  And now I wouldn’t be able to have my own
child, even though I put
the past behind me and I am a responsible successful
young man. Oh Well.  I
would have to adopt a kid if I really wanted one.
Also, I am the exception
most people who get on methadone don’t end up clean
and successful.  They
live the rest of their lives going to those
godforsaken methadone clinics
being surrounded by godforsaken addicts.

I have frequented many methadone clinics, and this
is just a guess, but I
would think that less then %4 of the people in the
clinics will be fit to
raise a child some day.  A child who doesn’t get
screwed up on drugs, a
child who is able to contribute to the betterment of
humankind.

I wish I had more time to try and articulate my
thoughts on this, but I have
to much to do now.  Please take the time to really
think if CRACK is a group
of villains or maybe they are a group that is moving
one thing in the right
direction.  Maybe someday there won’t be kids raised
by junkie-crackhead
parents.

Randy
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original
statement and more comments
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:35:43 -0700 (PDT)

OOPS, sorry bout that, finger slipped.

http://www.atwatchdog.org/opinion_crack.html

C.R.A.C.K. targets Methadone Maintenance Patients
An organization called C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
patients on methadone maintenance with their offer
of
$200 to submit to sterilization or limited birth
control methods. Form letters are being sent to
clinics across the U.S.

C.R.A.C.K.- Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity
otherwise known as is mailing form letters to U.S.
Opiate Treatment Programs. C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
methadone maintenance patients for coercive
sterilization or limited birth control options.
Please
help prevent this violation of human and civil
rights
that threatens reproduction freedom.

——————————————————————————–

The form letter being sent to clinic reads:

To Whom It May Concern:

Our organization offers cash incentives to both men
and women that are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol
to
use long-term or permanent birth control.

We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our offer known, and available to
the women and men who come through their program.
I’m
sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those using methadone or other drugs
to
refrain from getting pregnant.

Please call (888) 30-CRACK if you would like more
information, or more of the items that have been
enclosed.

Our program is currently in over 20 cities
nationwide,
and has paid over 600 men and women to obtain
long-term birth control. Thank you for the time ,
and
we hope to establish a working relationship with
you,
for both the benefit of the woman, and potential
child.

Sincerely

Barbara Harris
Founder and Director
C.R.A.C.K.
11642 Knott Ave. Suite 8
Garden Grove, CA 92841
Phone: 714-901-9862
FAX: 714-901-9832

——————————————————————————–

By offering patients $200 to entice them to undergo
sterilization or use selected birth control
methods,
C.R.A.C.K. is sending the message that methadone is
‘just another drug’ and patients are using it as a
substitute for illicit opiates. By supporting
C.R.A.C.K., programs are sending the same message
to
their patients.
Please support and respect your patients and your
program by mailing the form letters back to
C.R.A.C.K.
with a loud ‘NO!’.

——————————————————————————–

– CRACK’s Washington, DC Chapter placed ads in DC
Metrobuses that targeted primarily low-income and
predominately African-American communities in DC.
Ads
are targeting low-income, African -Americans. One
of
CRACK’s supporters and financial contributors is
Chris
Brand, a British psychologist – Brand, a
self-proclaimed “race realist,” claims that blacks
are
intellectually inferior to whites, and advocates
taking a “eugenic” approach to “wanton and criminal
females.” see

http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html

– CRACK violates civil and human rights, and
reproductive freedoms by targeting minorities and
low-income people. This small amount of cash is
offered for sterilization or birth control without
regard to the individual’s circumstances or future.

– CRACK limits birth control options. CRACK LIMITS
BIRTH CONTROL OPTIONS. CRACK irresponsibly limits
birth control options by compensating only for
long-term, provider-controlled methods: tubal
ligation, Norplant, Depo-Provera and IUDs. Barrier
methods and methods which protect against HIV
infection and other sexually transmitted diseases
are

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eating the Patch…
Date: July 23, 2002 at 1:51:16 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is one of those things that happens to many
times, I know soooooooooooo many people who sell their
pain meds. Whatever happens is going to be so awful
for that lady. Her nephew is already dead and I’m sure
the media will have so much fun turning her into some
kind of evil drug dealing monster.

Carla B

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
So how can you expect some one on a fixed income NOT
to sell a bit of
their medicine?

Dana/cnw

Pubdate: Wed, 17 Jul 2002
Source: Baltimore Sun (MD)
Copyright: 2002 The Baltimore Sun, a Times Mirror
Newspaper.
Contact: letters@baltsun.com
Website: http://www.sunspot.net/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/37
Authors: Sheridan Lyons and Athima Chansanchai

WOMAN CHARGED IN DRUG DEATH OF NEPHEW

Man Overdosed Abusing Pain Patch Medication

A Carroll County woman has been charged with
involuntary manslaughter in
the death of her 27-year-old nephew, who overdosed
after eating the gel
from a pain medication patch that is sometimes
abused for its heroin-like high.

Regina Raye Kesselring, 47, of New Windsor also was
charged with drug
distribution and reckless endangerment in the death
Feb. 4 of Steven E.
Spivey, a heroin user who had been “begging” her for
one of the Duragesic
patches she had been prescribed, court records show.

Kesselring, who lives on disability payments of less
than $600 a month,
told police she sold her nephew the patch for $50 –
and also said she had
sold him patches two other times to supplement her
$545-a-month disability
income, according to the charging documents.

URL:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1344.a11.html

——————————

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] hi
Date: July 23, 2002 at 1:00:00 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

randy wrote ; A child who doesn’t get screwed up on drugs, a
child who is able to contribute to the betterment of humankind .

do you mean like Mr. Bush and his daughters ?

Sara

From: “Angelo Marotta” <marottaa@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 22, 2002 at 11:32:14 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Where do I sign?

—–Original Message—–
From: Randy Hencken [mailto:randyhencken@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:08 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and
more comments

Well, I’m guessing that most of you won’t like what I’m
about to say, but I
agree with what CRACK is doing.  I am not a racist nor do I
wish to target
low income families.  Also I am an advocate of methadone
maintenance and I
believe in many circumstances that methadone is a good
program.  “Why do you
agree with Crack” you ask.  Because the other day I learned
of another
female friend of mine who has been strung out on methadone
for over 10 years
(she is only 32) is pregnant.  Bringing the grand total of
my female friends
on methadone who get pregnant and keep their babies to four.
Now I know each
one of these four girls very well and I assure you that none
of them are fit
to raise a child.  You all know girls like this, so I don’t
think I need to
go into the details as to how troubled these girls are.

Let’s look at the big picture.  What is more important
protecting the few
women who someday might be responsible enough while on
methadone to have a
child or protecting society from having children grow up in
less then
adequate environments (protecting children from bad
parents).  There are
over 6 billion people on the planet.  Over population is one
of the biggest
threats to human existence.  Another great threat is stupid
people.  Where
do stupid people come from? Stupid parents.

Before someone gives me a rebuttal, let me say that I fully
understand the
opposing position.  I simply do not agree with it.  Yes,
maybe a couple
years ago I may have had a vasectomy to get two hundred
dollars to score
dope.  And now I wouldn’t be able to have my own child, even
though I put
the past behind me and I am a responsible successful young
man. Oh Well.  I
would have to adopt a kid if I really wanted one.  Also, I
am the exception
most people who get on methadone don’t end up clean and
successful.  They
live the rest of their lives going to those godforsaken
methadone clinics
being surrounded by godforsaken addicts.

I have frequented many methadone clinics, and this is just a
guess, but I
would think that less then %4 of the people in the clinics
will be fit to
raise a child some day.  A child who doesn’t get screwed up
on drugs, a
child who is able to contribute to the betterment of
humankind.

I wish I had more time to try and articulate my thoughts on
this, but I have
to much to do now.  Please take the time to really think if
CRACK is a group
of villains or maybe they are a group that is moving one
thing in the right
direction.  Maybe someday there won’t be kids raised by
junkie-crackhead
parents.

Randy
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and
more comments
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:35:43 -0700 (PDT)

OOPS, sorry bout that, finger slipped.

http://www.atwatchdog.org/opinion_crack.html

C.R.A.C.K. targets Methadone Maintenance Patients
An organization called C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
patients on methadone maintenance with their offer of
$200 to submit to sterilization or limited birth
control methods. Form letters are being sent to
clinics across the U.S.

C.R.A.C.K.- Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity
otherwise known as is mailing form letters to U.S.
Opiate Treatment Programs. C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
methadone maintenance patients for coercive
sterilization or limited birth control options. Please
help prevent this violation of human and civil rights
that threatens reproduction freedom.

———————————————————–
———————

The form letter being sent to clinic reads:

To Whom It May Concern:

Our organization offers cash incentives to both men
and women that are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol to
use long-term or permanent birth control.

We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our offer known, and available to
the women and men who come through their program. I’m
sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those using methadone or other drugs to
refrain from getting pregnant.

Please call (888) 30-CRACK if you would like more
information, or more of the items that have been
enclosed.

Our program is currently in over 20 cities nationwide,
and has paid over 600 men and women to obtain
long-term birth control. Thank you for the time , and
we hope to establish a working relationship with you,
for both the benefit of the woman, and potential
child.

Sincerely

Barbara Harris
Founder and Director
C.R.A.C.K.
11642 Knott Ave. Suite 8
Garden Grove, CA 92841
Phone: 714-901-9862
FAX: 714-901-9832

———————————————————–
———————

By offering patients $200 to entice them to undergo
sterilization or use selected birth control methods,
C.R.A.C.K. is sending the message that methadone is
‘just another drug’ and patients are using it as a
substitute for illicit opiates. By supporting
C.R.A.C.K., programs are sending the same message to
their patients.
Please support and respect your patients and your
program by mailing the form letters back to C.R.A.C.K.
with a loud ‘NO!’.

———————————————————–
———————

– CRACK’s Washington, DC Chapter placed ads in DC
Metrobuses that targeted primarily low-income and
predominately African-American communities in DC. Ads
are targeting low-income, African -Americans. One of
CRACK’s supporters and financial contributors is Chris
Brand, a British psychologist – Brand, a
self-proclaimed “race realist,” claims that blacks are
intellectually inferior to whites, and advocates
taking a “eugenic” approach to “wanton and criminal
females.” see
http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html

– CRACK violates civil and human rights, and
reproductive freedoms by targeting minorities and
low-income people. This small amount of cash is
offered for sterilization or birth control without
regard to the individual’s circumstances or future.

– CRACK limits birth control options. CRACK LIMITS
BIRTH CONTROL OPTIONS. CRACK irresponsibly limits
birth control options by compensating only for
long-term, provider-controlled methods: tubal
ligation, Norplant, Depo-Provera and IUDs. Barrier
methods and methods which protect against HIV
infection and other sexually transmitted diseases are
not compensated. CRACK may actually increase a woman’s
risk of contracting HIV or other STDs, since it
exclusively advances birth control methods which
provide no protection against these infections.

– CRACK’s founder admits that the money given to these
individuals is probably used to buy more drugs, and
says that is their choice.

– If CRACK was really concerned about infants born to
drug-addicted parents, they should spend the $200 on
treatment for the parents, not sterilization or birth
control.

– CRACK is offering a ‘bribe’ to drug addicted women.
They are being coerced because of their desperate need
for money to buy drugs. Their drug addiction is being
used to exploit them. CRACK targets vulnerable women
with few options.

– Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a supporter. Need I say
more?

– Harris says. “People say it is a disease, fine. But
it is a disease of choice — however they got there
and whatever their background and however screwed up
their life is….”
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.htm
l

– “Harris’ critics also warn about the slippery slope.
“Today it is targeting and criminalizing drug abuse,
but what will it be tomorrow?” asks the ACLU’s
Cordoba. “If you take it to its logical conclusion,
you could have a program or policy that monitors the
kind of food a woman eats while she is pregnant, or
whether she exercises enough, or whether she has a
glass of wine or a cup of coffee.” Blum voices similar
concerns. “Where does it stop? Next do we start
sterilizing people who don’t take their
multivitamins?””
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.htm
l

-CRACK’s disregard for the women it targets is
evidenced in Barbara Harris’ statement: “We don’t
allow dogs to breed. We spay them. We neuter them. We
try to keep them from having unwanted puppies, and yet
these women are literally having litters of
children….”

– CRACK denies poor, marginalized women with substance
abuse problems their procreative ability, and this is
a human rights violation.
http://www.cwpe.org/old_website/pdf/crackfacts.pdf

See Family Watch letter to CRACK
http://www.familywatch.org/crack.htm

Salon

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.htm
l

Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html

Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
http://www.cwpe.org/index1.html

American Public Health Association
http://www.apha.org/legislative/policy/policysearch/index.c
fm?fuseaction=view&id=261

Who’s next? Where will this end? Which group of people
will be next on C.R.A.C.K.’s list of victims?

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM,
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

Hey Howard,
Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can
link to it at Drugwar.com?
Thanks.
peace,
Preston

Preston,

The letter originated with
http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that
Barbara Harris and
C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.

Howard
*********
—– Original Message —–

From: HSLotsof@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM

Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

Barbara Harris

Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s

“Project Prevention”

P.O. Box 74

Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to
your distribution of

highly misleading and completely inaccurate
information regarding pregnant

women and methadone treatment. In a letter date
February 22, 2002, you
state,

in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our
offer

known, and available, to the women and men who
come through their program.

I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those
using

methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting
pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement,
suggesting that it is

dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically
prescribed methadone

treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong.
Methadone is a highly

effective treatment for all opiate dependent
patients and, most
specifically,

for women – both before and after they may become
pregnant. In fact,
methadone

treatment during pregnancy has not been
associated with congenital

abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases
where neonatal withdrawal

symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these
symptoms can be treated

readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on
physical or cognitive

development. In short, there is simply no medical
basis for your suggestion

that methadone patients should “refrain from
getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the
world, methadone maintenance

treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially
reduce illegal opiate use
and

the crime, illness, suffering, and death with
which it is associated. The

benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to
the individual patient, but

to his/her family and the community, as well. The
most credible and
objective

governmental and non-governmental organizations in
America and abroad have

recognized these positive results with MMT. For
example, the US Department
of

Health and Human Services joins the scientific
community in recognizing
that

MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the
general community. It is

specifically recommended for pregnant and
breast-feeding patients, which

further demonstrates the strong medical consensus
supporting methadone

treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many
benefits, it is available

to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it.
Women, in particular,
face

numerous barriers to obtaining this important
medical intervention. Your

letter and activities, which spread false
information and stigmatize
current

and future mothers who receive this treatment,
will make it even more

difficult for women who need methadone treatment
to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter
immediately and to advise
each

of those individuals and clinics who received it
that it was based on

misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that
you publicly repudiate
the

inaccurate message you conveyed on your
organization’s website and in other

public and media context. Not to do so would be
irresponsible and a great

disservice to those whose interests you claim to
have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and
Psychiatry, Case Western

Reserve University, School of Medicine

2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of
Pediatrics, Albert Einstein

College of Medicine

3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of
Pediatrics, Beth Israel

Medical Center

4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de
Rothschild Chemical

Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center

5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant
Development Center, Women and

Infants’ Hospital

6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of
Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas

University Medical Center

7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston
University School of Social
Work,

Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research
and Training

8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training
Consultant, Former
Assistant

Director of Research, Chemical Dependency
Institute, Beth Israel Medical

Center

9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal
Medicine, Penn State Hershey

Medical Center

10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of
OB/GYN, University of Chicago

11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor,
Department of OB/GYN, NYU
School

of Medicine

12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of
Public Health and OB/GYN,

Columbia University, Mailman School of Public
Health

13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of
OB/GYN, University

Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve
University School of Medicine

14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health
Education Center, Dept. of
OB/GYN

15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of
Medicine, University of New
Mexico

16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary
Care, NYU School of Medicine

17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of
Epidemiology and Social Medicine,

Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School
of Medicine

18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the
Practice of Medical Ethics,

Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and
Humanities, Duke University

Medical Center

19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate
Professor, Department of

Psychiatry, University of Chicago

20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor,
Dept. of Sociology, UC
Santa

Cruz

21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Washington University

22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor
of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz

23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health
Policy and Management,

Wagner/NYU

24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor
of Nursing,
Women’s

Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction,
Dominican University of

California

25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director
of the Chemical
Dependency

Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center

26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild
Chemical Dependency Institute

of Beth Israel Medical Center

27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Rensselaer Polytechnic

Institute

28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor,
University of Illinois at
Chicago

29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of
Public Health & Health

Services

30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, Rutgers University

31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Rutgers University

32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of
Sociology, Anthropology and
Criminal

Justice,

Rutgers University

33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant
Professor, Princeton University

34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor,
University of Iowa

35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Fordham University

36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, University of Chicago

37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College

38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor,
Evergreen State College

39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center
for Urban Epidemiologic

Studies, New York Academy of Medicine

40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for
Scientific Analysis

41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health
Partners

42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants
Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,

Mountain Area Health Education Center

44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women’s Health,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator,
Mountain Area Perinatal

Substance Abuse Program

46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain
Area Perinatal Substance

Abuse Program

47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior
Medicine, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction
Specialist, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal
Substance Abuse Program

52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE

53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm
Reduction Project

54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D

55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.

56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian

57. National Women’s Health Network

58. National Black Women’s Health Project

59. National Association for Public Health Policy
Council on Illicit Drugs

60. Institute for Health and Recovery

61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)

62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of Arkansas & Oklahoma

63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of DC

64. Connecticut Women’s Consortium

65. Casa Segura

66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center

67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog

68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates

70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention
Project

72. AIDS Project New Haven

73. HIV Law Project

74. ASPIRE

75. Drug Policy Alliance

76. Urban Justice Center

77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute

78. Center for Human Rights Education

79. Family Watch

80. Committee on Women, Population, and the
Environment

81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS

82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners

83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children

84. NORML Foundation

85. Common Sense for Drug Policy

86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii

87. ReconsiDer

88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse

89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War

90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm
Reduction Coalition

91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense
for Drug Policy

92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML

93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont
Harm Reduction Coalition

94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care
Methadone Clinic

95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services
for Prisoners with

Children

96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction
Services, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program
Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport
Health Department

99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and
Recovery

100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population,
and the Environment

101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside

102. Stephanie Manfre, Children’s Case
Manager, Riley Center

103. Ann Beck, Riley Center

104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center

105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center

106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House

107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center

108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center

109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center

110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center

111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center

112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center

113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and
Abuse

117. Theryn Kigvamasud’Vashti, Communities
Against Rape and Abuse

118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator,
Communities Against Rape and Abuse

119. Shane Felles

120. Brion Roberts

121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access
Project

122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director,
NARAL – NH

123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund

124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety
First Project, Drug Policy

Alliance

125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical
Center

126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive
Director, Neighborhood Youth &

Family Services

127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System

128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico
Prenatal Care Network,

University of New Mexico

129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug
Dependence

130. Gloria Knighton

131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions

132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates

133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

__________________________________________________
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Eating the Patch…
Date: July 22, 2002 at 7:08:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So how can you expect some one on a fixed income NOT to sell a bit of
their medicine?

Dana/cnw

Pubdate: Wed, 17 Jul 2002
Source: Baltimore Sun (MD)
Copyright: 2002 The Baltimore Sun, a Times Mirror Newspaper.
Contact: letters@baltsun.com
Website: http://www.sunspot.net/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/37
Authors: Sheridan Lyons and Athima Chansanchai

WOMAN CHARGED IN DRUG DEATH OF NEPHEW

Man Overdosed Abusing Pain Patch Medication

A Carroll County woman has been charged with involuntary manslaughter in
the death of her 27-year-old nephew, who overdosed after eating the gel
from a pain medication patch that is sometimes abused for its heroin-like high.

Regina Raye Kesselring, 47, of New Windsor also was charged with drug
distribution and reckless endangerment in the death Feb. 4 of Steven E.
Spivey, a heroin user who had been “begging” her for one of the Duragesic
patches she had been prescribed, court records show.

Kesselring, who lives on disability payments of less than $600 a month,
told police she sold her nephew the patch for $50 – and also said she had
sold him patches two other times to supplement her $545-a-month disability
income, according to the charging documents.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1344.a11.html

——————————

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 22, 2002 at 7:07:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well, I’m guessing that most of you won’t like what I’m about to say, but I agree with what CRACK is doing.  I am not a racist nor do I wish to target low income families.  Also I am an advocate of methadone maintenance and I believe in many circumstances that methadone is a good program.  “Why do you agree with Crack” you ask.  Because the other day I learned of another female friend of mine who has been strung out on methadone for over 10 years (she is only 32) is pregnant.  Bringing the grand total of my female friends on methadone who get pregnant and keep their babies to four. Now I know each one of these four girls very well and I assure you that none of them are fit to raise a child.  You all know girls like this, so I don’t think I need to go into the details as to how troubled these girls are.

Let’s look at the big picture.  What is more important protecting the few women who someday might be responsible enough while on methadone to have a child or protecting society from having children grow up in less then adequate environments (protecting children from bad parents).  There are over 6 billion people on the planet.  Over population is one of the biggest threats to human existence.  Another great threat is stupid people.  Where do stupid people come from? Stupid parents.

Before someone gives me a rebuttal, let me say that I fully understand the opposing position.  I simply do not agree with it.  Yes, maybe a couple years ago I may have had a vasectomy to get two hundred dollars to score dope.  And now I wouldn’t be able to have my own child, even though I put the past behind me and I am a responsible successful young man. Oh Well.  I would have to adopt a kid if I really wanted one.  Also, I am the exception most people who get on methadone don’t end up clean and successful.  They live the rest of their lives going to those godforsaken methadone clinics being surrounded by godforsaken addicts.

I have frequented many methadone clinics, and this is just a guess, but I would think that less then %4 of the people in the clinics will be fit to raise a child some day.  A child who doesn’t get screwed up on drugs, a child who is able to contribute to the betterment of humankind.

I wish I had more time to try and articulate my thoughts on this, but I have to much to do now.  Please take the time to really think if CRACK is a group of villains or maybe they are a group that is moving one thing in the right direction.  Maybe someday there won’t be kids raised by junkie-crackhead parents.

Randy
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:35:43 -0700 (PDT)

OOPS, sorry bout that, finger slipped.

http://www.atwatchdog.org/opinion_crack.html

C.R.A.C.K. targets Methadone Maintenance Patients
An organization called C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
patients on methadone maintenance with their offer of
$200 to submit to sterilization or limited birth
control methods. Form letters are being sent to
clinics across the U.S.

C.R.A.C.K.- Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity
otherwise known as is mailing form letters to U.S.
Opiate Treatment Programs. C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
methadone maintenance patients for coercive
sterilization or limited birth control options. Please
help prevent this violation of human and civil rights
that threatens reproduction freedom.

——————————————————————————–

The form letter being sent to clinic reads:

To Whom It May Concern:

Our organization offers cash incentives to both men
and women that are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol to
use long-term or permanent birth control.

We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our offer known, and available to
the women and men who come through their program. I’m
sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those using methadone or other drugs to
refrain from getting pregnant.

Please call (888) 30-CRACK if you would like more
information, or more of the items that have been
enclosed.

Our program is currently in over 20 cities nationwide,
and has paid over 600 men and women to obtain
long-term birth control. Thank you for the time , and
we hope to establish a working relationship with you,
for both the benefit of the woman, and potential
child.

Sincerely

Barbara Harris
Founder and Director
C.R.A.C.K.
11642 Knott Ave. Suite 8
Garden Grove, CA 92841
Phone: 714-901-9862
FAX: 714-901-9832

——————————————————————————–

By offering patients $200 to entice them to undergo
sterilization or use selected birth control methods,
C.R.A.C.K. is sending the message that methadone is
‘just another drug’ and patients are using it as a
substitute for illicit opiates. By supporting
C.R.A.C.K., programs are sending the same message to
their patients.
Please support and respect your patients and your
program by mailing the form letters back to C.R.A.C.K.
with a loud ‘NO!’.

——————————————————————————–

– CRACK’s Washington, DC Chapter placed ads in DC
Metrobuses that targeted primarily low-income and
predominately African-American communities in DC. Ads
are targeting low-income, African -Americans. One of
CRACK’s supporters and financial contributors is Chris
Brand, a British psychologist – Brand, a
self-proclaimed “race realist,” claims that blacks are
intellectually inferior to whites, and advocates
taking a “eugenic” approach to “wanton and criminal
females.” see
http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html

– CRACK violates civil and human rights, and
reproductive freedoms by targeting minorities and
low-income people. This small amount of cash is
offered for sterilization or birth control without
regard to the individual’s circumstances or future.

– CRACK limits birth control options. CRACK LIMITS
BIRTH CONTROL OPTIONS. CRACK irresponsibly limits
birth control options by compensating only for
long-term, provider-controlled methods: tubal
ligation, Norplant, Depo-Provera and IUDs. Barrier
methods and methods which protect against HIV
infection and other sexually transmitted diseases are
not compensated. CRACK may actually increase a woman’s
risk of contracting HIV or other STDs, since it
exclusively advances birth control methods which
provide no protection against these infections.

– CRACK’s founder admits that the money given to these
individuals is probably used to buy more drugs, and
says that is their choice.

– If CRACK was really concerned about infants born to
drug-addicted parents, they should spend the $200 on
treatment for the parents, not sterilization or birth
control.

– CRACK is offering a ‘bribe’ to drug addicted women.
They are being coerced because of their desperate need
for money to buy drugs. Their drug addiction is being
used to exploit them. CRACK targets vulnerable women
with few options.

– Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a supporter. Need I say
more?

– Harris says. “People say it is a disease, fine. But
it is a disease of choice — however they got there
and whatever their background and however screwed up
their life is….”
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html

– “Harris’ critics also warn about the slippery slope.
“Today it is targeting and criminalizing drug abuse,
but what will it be tomorrow?” asks the ACLU’s
Cordoba. “If you take it to its logical conclusion,
you could have a program or policy that monitors the
kind of food a woman eats while she is pregnant, or
whether she exercises enough, or whether she has a
glass of wine or a cup of coffee.” Blum voices similar
concerns. “Where does it stop? Next do we start
sterilizing people who don’t take their
multivitamins?””
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html

-CRACK’s disregard for the women it targets is
evidenced in Barbara Harris’ statement: “We don’t
allow dogs to breed. We spay them. We neuter them. We
try to keep them from having unwanted puppies, and yet
these women are literally having litters of
children

– CRACK denies poor, marginalized women with substance
abuse problems their procreative ability, and this is
a human rights violation.
http://www.cwpe.org/old_website/pdf/crackfacts.pdf

See Family Watch letter to CRACK
http://www.familywatch.org/crack.htm

Salon

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html

Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html

Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
http://www.cwpe.org/index1.html

American Public Health Association
http://www.apha.org/legislative/policy/policysearch/index.cfm?fuseaction=view&id=261

Who’s next? Where will this end? Which group of people
will be next on C.R.A.C.K.’s list of victims?

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM,
> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
>
> >Hey Howard,
> >Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can
> link to it at Drugwar.com?
> >Thanks.
> >peace,
> >Preston
>
> Preston,
>
> The letter originated with
> http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
> didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that
> Barbara Harris and
> C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.
>
> Howard
> *********
>  —– Original Message —–
>
>   From: HSLotsof@aol.com
>
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>
>   Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM
>
>   Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
>
>
>
>   Barbara Harris
>
>   Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s
>
>   “Project Prevention”
>
>   P.O. Box 74
>
>   Stanton, CA 90680
>
>
>   Dear Ms. Harris:
>
>
>   We are writing to express our strong objections to
> your distribution of
>
>   highly misleading and completely inaccurate
> information regarding pregnant
>
>   women and methadone treatment. In a letter date
> February 22, 2002, you
> state,
>
>   in part:
>
>
>   “We are currently working with several methadone
> clinics that make our
> offer
>
>   known, and available, to the women and men who
> come through their program.
>
>   I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
> important for those
> using
>
>   methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting
> pregnant.”
>
>
>   We most certainly do not agree. Your statement,
> suggesting that it is
>
>   dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically
> prescribed methadone
>
>   treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong.
> Methadone is a highly
>
>   effective treatment for all opiate dependent
> patients and, most
> specifically,
>
>   for women – both before and after they may become
> pregnant. In fact,
> methadone
>
>    treatment during pregnancy has not been
> associated with congenital
>
>   abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases
> where neonatal withdrawal
>
>   symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these
> symptoms can be treated
>
>   readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on
> physical or cognitive
>
>   development. In short, there is simply no medical
> basis for your suggestion
>
>   that methadone patients should “refrain from
> getting pregnant.”
>
>
>   For over 30 years, in countries throughout the
> world, methadone maintenance
>
>   treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially
> reduce illegal opiate use
> and
>
>   the crime, illness, suffering, and death with
> which it is associated. The
>
>   benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to
> the individual patient, but
>
>   to his/her family and the community, as well. The
> most credible and
> objective
>
>   governmental and non-governmental organizations in
> America and abroad have
>
>   recognized these positive results with MMT. For
> example, the US Department
> of
>
>   Health and Human Services joins the scientific
> community in recognizing
> that
>
>   MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the
> general community. It is
>
>   specifically recommended for pregnant and
> breast-feeding patients, which
>
>   further demonstrates the strong medical consensus
> supporting methadone
>
>   treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.
>
>
>   Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many
> benefits, it is available
>
>   to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it.
> Women, in particular,
> face
>
>   numerous barriers to obtaining this important
> medical intervention. Your
>
>   letter and activities, which spread false
> information and stigmatize
> current
>
>   and future mothers who receive this treatment,
> will make it even more
>
>   difficult for women who need methadone treatment
> to receive it.
>
>
>   We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter
> immediately and to advise
> each
>
>   of those individuals and clinics who received it
> that it was based on
>
>   misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that
> you publicly repudiate
> the
>
>   inaccurate message you conveyed on your
> organization’s website and in other
>
>   public and media context. Not to do so would be
> irresponsible and a great
>
>   disservice to those whose interests you claim to
> have at heart.
>
>
>   Signed,
>
>
>
>   Signatories
>
>
>   1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and
> Psychiatry, Case Western
>
>   Reserve University, School of Medicine
>
>   2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of
> Pediatrics, Albert Einstein
>
>   College of Medicine
>
>   3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of
> Pediatrics, Beth Israel
>
>   Medical Center
>
>   4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de
> Rothschild Chemical
>
>   Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center
>
>
>   5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant
> Development Center, Women and
>
>   Infants’ Hospital
>
>   6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of
> Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas
>
>   University Medical Center
>
>   7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston
> University School of Social
> Work,
>
>   Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research
> and Training
>
>   8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training
> Consultant, Former
> Assistant
>
>   Director of Research, Chemical Dependency
> Institute, Beth Israel Medical
>
>   Center
>
>   9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal
> Medicine, Penn State Hershey
>
>   Medical Center
>
>   10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of
> OB/GYN, University of Chicago
>
>   11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor,
> Department of OB/GYN, NYU
> School
>
>   of Medicine
>
>   12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of
> Public Health and OB/GYN,
>
>   Columbia University, Mailman School of Public
> Health
>
>   13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of
> OB/GYN, University
>
>   Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve
> University School of Medicine
>
>   14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health
> Education Center, Dept. of
> OB/GYN
>
>   15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of
> Medicine, University of New
> Mexico
>
>   16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary
> Care, NYU School of Medicine
>
>   17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of
> Epidemiology and Social Medicine,
>
>   Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School
> of Medicine
>
>   18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the
> Practice of Medical Ethics,
>
>   Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and
> Humanities, Duke University
>
>   Medical Center
>
>   19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate
> Professor, Department of
>
>   Psychiatry, University of Chicago
>
>   20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor,
> Dept. of Sociology, UC
> Santa
>
>   Cruz
>
>   21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
> Washington University
>
>   22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor
> of Sociology, UC Santa
> Cruz
>
>   23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health
> Policy and Management,
>
>   Wagner/NYU
>
>   24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor
> of Nursing,
> Women’s
>
>   Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction,
> Dominican University of
>
>   California
>
>   25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director
> of the Chemical
> Dependency
>
>   Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center
>
>   26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild
> Chemical Dependency Institute
>
>   of Beth Israel Medical Center
>
>   27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
> Rensselaer Polytechnic
>
>   Institute
>
>   28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor,
> University of Illinois at
> Chicago
>
>   29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of
> Public Health & Health
>
>   Services
>
>   30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate
> Professor, Rutgers University
>
>   31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
> Rutgers University
>
>   32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of
> Sociology, Anthropology and
> Criminal
>
>   Justice,
>
>   Rutgers University
>
>   33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant
> Professor, Princeton University
>
>   34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor,
> University of Iowa
>
>   35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
> Fordham University
>
>   36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate
> Professor, University of Chicago
>
>   37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College
>
>   38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor,
> Evergreen State College
>
>   39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center
> for Urban Epidemiologic
>
>   Studies, New York Academy of Medicine
>
>   40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for
> Scientific Analysis
>
>   41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health
> Partners
>
>   42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN,
> Mountain Area Health Education
>
>   Center
>
>   43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants
> Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,
>
>   Mountain Area Health Education Center
>
>   44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women’s Health,
> Mountain Area Health Education
>
>   Center
>
>   45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator,
> Mountain Area Perinatal
>
>   Substance Abuse Program
>
>   46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain
> Area Perinatal Substance
>
>   Abuse Program
>
>   47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior
> Medicine, Mountain Area
>
>   Health Education Center
>
>   48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area
> Health Education Center
>
>   49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area
> Health Education Center
>
>   50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction
> Specialist, Mountain Area
>
>   Health Education Center
>
>   51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal
> Substance Abuse Program
>
>   52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE
>
>   53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm
> Reduction Project
>
>   54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D
>
>   55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.
>
>   56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian
>
>   57. National Women’s Health Network
>
>   58. National Black Women’s Health Project
>
>   59. National Association for Public Health Policy
> Council on Illicit Drugs
>
>   60. Institute for Health and Recovery
>
>   61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
>
>   62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
> of Arkansas & Oklahoma
>
>   63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
> of DC
>
>   64. Connecticut Women’s Consortium
>
>   65. Casa Segura
>
>   66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center
>
>   67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog
>
>   68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic
>
>   69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates
>
>   70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
>
>   71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention
> Project
>
>   72. AIDS Project New Haven
>
>   73. HIV Law Project
>
>   74. ASPIRE
>
>   75. Drug Policy Alliance
>
>   76. Urban Justice Center
>
>   77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute
>
>   78. Center for Human Rights Education
>
>   79. Family Watch
>
>   80. Committee on Women, Population, and the
> Environment
>
>   81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS
>
>   82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners
>
>   83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children
>
>   84. NORML Foundation
>
>   85. Common Sense for Drug Policy
>
>   86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii
>
>   87. ReconsiDer
>
>   88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse
>
>   89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War
>
>   90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm
> Reduction Coalition
>
>   91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense
> for Drug Policy
>
>   92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML
>
>   93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont
> Harm Reduction Coalition
>
>   94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care
> Methadone Clinic
>
>   95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services
> for Prisoners with
>
>   Children
>
>   96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction
> Services, Cambridge Cares
> About
>
>   AIDS
>
>   97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program
> Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
> About
>
>   AIDS
>
>   98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport
> Health Department
>
>   99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and
> Recovery
>
>   100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population,
> and the Environment
>
>   101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside
>
>   102. Stephanie Manfre, Children’s Case
> Manager, Riley Center
>
>   103. Ann Beck, Riley Center
>
>   104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center
>
>   105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center
>
>   106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House
>
>   107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center
>
>   108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center
>
>   109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center
>
>   110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center
>
>   111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center
>
>   112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center
>
>   113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of
> Public Health
>
>   114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of
> Public Health
>
>   115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of
> Public Health
>
>   116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and
> Abuse
>
>   117. Theryn Kigvamasud’Vashti, Communities
> Against Rape and Abuse
>
>   118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator,
> Communities Against Rape and Abuse
>
>   119. Shane Felles
>
>   120. Brion Roberts
>
>   121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access
> Project
>
>   122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director,
> NARAL – NH
>
>   123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund
>
>   124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety
> First Project, Drug Policy
>
>   Alliance
>
>   125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical
> Center
>
>   126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive
> Director, Neighborhood Youth &
>
>   Family Services
>
>   127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System
>
>   128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico
> Prenatal Care Network,
>
>   University of New Mexico
>
>   129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug
> Dependence
>
>   130. Gloria Knighton
>
>   131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions
>
>   132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
>
>   133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 22, 2002 at 3:27:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mon, 22 July 2002, “G. Ratte'” wrote

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
very cool, good find.
hope no one minds my taking up bandwidth with my
list. IF so, use delete
button.;-))
Peace,
Me

Am I supposed to be angry about all this?  Why?

I didn’t want to offend anyone by asking the same
question. But

I care about this why?

They are offering women who are low income and drug
addicted money so they can go buy drugs with that in
exchange for no longer being able to have kids.

This damages society, the lucky kids who aren’t born
into that and the mothers in what way?

I’m not making declarations I’m asking questions, it
isn’t that my mind is made up it’s more like I don’t
understand why I’m supposed to care or what’s wrong
with this idea.

.:vector:.

___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Musings on the Pharmaceutical industry
Date: July 22, 2002 at 2:03:56 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Speaking of orgasms.  A few months, a year, or a lifetime ago, I recall
reading that doctors had found the “orgasm nerve” and can now implant a
small cigarette-pack sized device to enable a person to go-O at the
press of a button.  How long before such a device, and other related
technological innovations, are outlawed?

Interlude:
…Hey, I’ve shrunk this thing to the size of a dime, and for a few
grand you can turn your high on or off anytime you like; of course,
we’re having problems with people just keeping the things on all the
time…Authorities have siezed the holdings of Mindvox Intl., and
arrested its CEO for Wetware trafficking…I’m powerless over my
implanted disease…and in the airports, Beware of the Wetware sniffing
attack dogs…

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

digital@phantom.com 07/22/02 01:11PM >>>

“And by 2007 we will have an inoculation that prevents orgasm!  Unless
THE
STATE, your Parole Ossifah and The Government Approve!” <Applause>
<clapping> <woo hoo!  YEAH!>

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Musings on the Pharmaceutical industry
Date: July 22, 2002 at 1:11:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 11:50:12AM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| -It reportedly costs $500 million to bring a pharmaceutical product to
| market (other literature indicates this an exaggerated figure).

Ehhhhh…  Depends an awful lot.  From what I have actually seen anywaze.

| -Pharmaceutical companies are always looking to “knock it out of the
| ballpark;” they are very satisfied with a pharmacotherapy that brings in
| $1 million per day.
|
| -Pharmacological treatment of addiction, and numerous other
| statistically insignificant diseases, won’t result in an “out of the
| ballpark” product.
|
| -MAINTENANCE drugs for the treatment (alleviation of symptoms) of
| various diseases, are very profitable.
|
| The foregoing brings to mind this question:
| What possible motive would there be for any pharmaceutical company to
| research and develop medications that would actually “cure”
| insignificant diseases?  Or significant ones for that matter.  What if,

<drum roll>  None whatsoever.  Who cares!  Where’s the Money!!?@1!!!!?????

| as a result of unraveling the human genome, pharmaceutical companies
| could develop medications that would alleviate the need for any kind of
| maintenance drugs, but, instead, would cure the disease in only a few
| applications?   Would they be pursued?

Why sure.  Every time I read the spin control for drugabusesciences it
gets creepier and more out there…  It ChAnGeS a lot…  Not in a good
way either.

http://www.drugabusesciences.com/

“And by 2007 we will have an inoculation that prevents orgasm!  Unless THE
STATE, your Parole Ossifah and The Government Approve!” <Applause>
<clapping> <woo hoo!  YEAH!>

Hooray Science!

Patrick

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Musings on the Pharmaceutical industry
Date: July 22, 2002 at 11:50:12 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

-It reportedly costs $500 million to bring a pharmaceutical product to
market (other literature indicates this an exaggerated figure).

-Pharmaceutical companies are always looking to “knock it out of the
ballpark;” they are very satisfied with a pharmacotherapy that brings in
$1 million per day.

-Pharmacological treatment of addiction, and numerous other
statistically insignificant diseases, won’t result in an “out of the
ballpark” product.

-MAINTENANCE drugs for the treatment (alleviation of symptoms) of
various diseases, are very profitable.

The foregoing brings to mind this question:
What possible motive would there be for any pharmaceutical company to
research and develop medications that would actually “cure”
insignificant diseases?  Or significant ones for that matter.  What if,
as a result of unraveling the human genome, pharmaceutical companies
could develop medications that would alleviate the need for any kind of
maintenance drugs, but, instead, would cure the disease in only a few
applications?   Would they be pursued?

Just wondering.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “G. Ratte'” <z3kpw@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 22, 2002 at 11:10:20 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
very cool, good find.
hope no one minds my taking up bandwidth with my list. IF so, use delete
button.;-))
Peace,
Me

Am I supposed to be angry about all this?  Why?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Dutch banks fear to fund sex and drug businesses
Date: July 21, 2002 at 8:53:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dang!  I must say I consider amsterdam to be the most tolerant caucasian place on earth…..Not so clear re the prostitution, but the mushroom/weed tolerance seemed pretty universal to me.  Sittin in our little red British van outside a very posh restaurant, and just sort of phased from our evening’s fun, when several well-dressed, quite posh middle aged people (as am I, was 47 at the time) exiting the restaurant knocked on the window and did a “thumbs-up to me and Chris.  The straightest looking woman in the world, in a fur, for god’s sake, with a huge smile and wink said, “right on!  Enjoy yourselves.”
Chris and I said, “god, we’re so stoned even the straights notice.”
I thought, wow, I could live here.  Love, jane

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Dutch banks fear to fund sex and drug businesses
Date: July 21, 2002 at 8:25:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From another list.
***************

Dutch banks fear to fund sex and drug businesses

By Melanie Cheary

AMSTERDAM, July 18 (Reuters) – In the Netherlands prostitutes pay tax and
brothels are legal. Marijuana can be sold and you can smoke it in a trendy
coffee shop.

Sex and drug industries, banned and punished around the world, make millions
every year as tourists rush to savour the pleasures. Brothels and cannabis
coffee shops are an integral part of the Dutch small business sector.

Like every entrepreneur, prostitutes and soft drug retailers need financing.
The country’s big banks could reap healthy proceeds from these industries
that have a combined annual turnover of one billion euros ($1.01 billion).

But banks are still afraid of risking their reputations by associating with
businesses whose legal status is either still too new or too dubious, coffee
shop owners say.

Shaking his head in frustration, the proprietor of a popular coffee shop on
one of Amsterdam’s busy canals says: “No way. Not possible,” when asked if
his bank would give him a loan.

Asking to remain anonymous, he says business is flourishing and his shop is
certainly packed. An elderly man sits in the corner, flicking through a
newspaper, joint in hand. A crowd at a table erupt into laughter. The room is
heavy with the fragrant smoke from cannabis.

Regulars and dreadlocked backpackers alike enjoy his menu from Mother’s
Finest Marijuana that gives you a “silly, laughing feeling” to Sky High Hash
that is likely to put you to sleep.

HAZY BUSINESS

About 900 licensed coffee shops are regulated in the Netherlands and each
generates on average an annual turnover of about 400,000 euros. Those near
the borders with Germany and Belgium rake in as much in just a month.

But the status of the sector is complicated.

Cannabis is illegal but is tolerated and decriminalised. Coffee shops can
sell cannabis and you can buy it, smoke it or take it away without fear of
arrest or prosecution.

But there are certain limits. Coffee shops are not allowed to advertise, no
transaction is allowed to be more than five grammes and the drug cannot be
sold to minors.

It is punishable to produce cannabis in large quantities or supply coffee
shops, creating a double-standard.

These fuzzy areas are why banks say they don’t do business with cannabis
shops. On the other hand, banks are forced by law to offer the same financial
services to prostitutes and brothel owners as to any other small business
owner.

“Anyone can apply for a business account and we check whether they’re legal
or illegal. Prostitution is legal and at ABN AMRO prostitutes can get an
account. Where coffee shops are concerned, we’re entering an area where
nothing is black or white,” said ABN AMRO spokesman Geert Pielage.

“By law, coffee shops are tolerated but they are formally illegal. We just
don’t deal with coffee shops,” he added.

Coffee shop owners doubt banks’ reasons and say they are simply too afraid of
offending overseas clients in countries like the United States, which has
tough laws on soft drugs.

“Most of the banks don’t want anything to do with coffee shops. You get
absolutely no credit. You can be one euro in the red and they’re knocking at
your door,” said Nol van Schaik, founder and owner of numerous coffee shops.

“Banks like ING and ABN AMRO have such big business in the United States and
they don’t want to risk what people will think if they know they’re doing
business with coffee shops,” he said.

PROSTITUTES STRUGGLE

Nowhere is the sex industry more legal than in the Netherlands, where the
world’s oldest profession has been protected by law for almost 200 years.

In 1988 it was officially defined as a legal profession and prostitutes
joined the service sector union. They have paid income tax since 1996. But
brothels held the same status as coffee shops until they were legalised last
year.

Until recently prostitutes struggled to open business bank accounts which
they wanted in order to show that their income was not personal and that
expenses — like condoms and sex toys — could be tax-free and tax-deductible.

But last year the Rode Draad (Red Thread), which represents the 30,000 Dutch
prostitutes, challenged banks who wouldn’t give commercial accounts, on the
grounds of discrimination.

The group laid a charge against ING with the Office of Fair Treatment. ING,
which said at the time it didn’t want its name tied to sex because it might
offend other clients in the 65 countries it operates, capitulated before the
ruling.

The Rode Draad says that now prostitutes are entitled to all the commercial
services on offer to any other entrepreneur but prostitutes in Amsterdam’s
thriving Red Light district say the reality is far from fair.

“The women tell me that what banks are told they must do and what they do is
completely different. They say the banks are happy to take their money but
they won’t give them money for the things they must buy,” said a former
prostitute.

($1-.9906 Euro)

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 21, 2002 at 4:15:15 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

very cool, good find.
hope no one minds my taking up bandwidth with my list. IF so, use delete button.;-))
Peace,
Me
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

It is here with some additional text;

http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/issues/crackpetition.htm

I am looking for the original CRACK statement and
didn’t read it yet however this looks like sound
common sense;

Ms. Harris stated “I’m sure one thing most can agree
on is that it is important for those using methadone
or other drugs to refrain from getting pregnant.”

Brett

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM,
> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
>
> >Hey Howard,
> >Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can
> link to it at Drugwar.com?
> >Thanks.
> >peace,
> >Preston
>
> Preston,
>
> The letter originated with
> http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
> didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that
> Barbara Harris and
> C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.
>
> Howard
> *********
>  —– Original Message —–
>
>   From: HSLotsof@aol.com
>
>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>
>   Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM
>
>   Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
>
>
>
>   Barbara Harris
>
>   Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s
>
>   “Project Prevention”
>
>   P.O. Box 74
>
>   Stanton, CA 90680
>
>
>   Dear Ms. Harris:
>
>
>   We are writing to express our strong objections to
> your distribution of
>
>   highly misleading and completely inaccurate
> information regarding pregnant
>
>   women and methadone treatment. In a letter date
> February 22, 2002, you
> state,
>
>   in part:
>
>
>   “We are currently working with several methadone
> clinics that make our
> offer
>
>   known, and available, to the women and men who
> come through their program.
>
>   I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
> important for those
> using
>
>   methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting
> pregnant.”
>
>
>   We most certainly do not agree. Your statement,
> suggesting that it is
>
>   dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically
> prescribed methadone
>
>   treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong.
> Methadone is a highly
>
>   effective treatment for all opiate dependent
> patients and, most
> specifically,
>
>   for women – both before and after they may become
> pregnant. In fact,
> methadone
>
>    treatment during pregnancy has not been
> associated with congenital
>
>   abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases
> where neonatal withdrawal
>
>   symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these
> symptoms can be treated
>
>   readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on
> physical or cognitive
>
>   development. In short, there is simply no medical
> basis for your suggestion
>
>   that methadone patients should “refrain from
> getting pregnant.”
>
>
>   For over 30 years, in countries throughout the
> world, methadone maintenance
>
>   treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially
> reduce illegal opiate use
> and
>
>   the crime, illness, suffering, and death with
> which it is associated. The
>
>   benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to
> the individual patient, but
>
>   to his/her family and the community, as well. The
> most credible and
> objective
>
>   governmental and non-governmental organizations in
> America and abroad have
>
>   recognized these positive results with MMT. For
> example, the US Department
> of
>
>   Health and Human Services joins the scientific
> community in recognizing
> that
>
>   MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the
> general community. It is
>
>   specifically recommended for pregnant and
> breast-feeding patients, which
>
>   further demonstrates the strong medical consensus
> supporting methadone
>
>   treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.
>
>
>   Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many
> benefits, it is available
>
>   to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it.
> Women, in particular,
> face
>
>   numerous barriers to obtaining this important
> medical intervention. Your
>
>   letter and activities, which spread false
> information and stigmatize
> current
>
>   and future mothers who receive this treatment,
> will make it even more
>
>   difficult for women who need methadone treatment
> to receive it.
>
>
>   We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter
> immediately and to advise
> each
>
>   of those individuals and clinics who received it
> that it was based on
>
>   misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that
> you publicly repudiate
> the
>
>   inaccurate message you conveyed on your
> organization’s website and in other
>
>   public and media context. Not to do so would be
> irresponsible and a great
>
>   disservice to those whose interests you claim to
> have at heart.
>
>
>   Signed,
>
>
>
>   Signatories
>
>
>   1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and
> Psychiatry, Case Western
>
>   Reserve University, School of Medicine
>
>   2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of
> Pediatrics, Albert Einstein
>
>   College of Medicine
>
>   3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of
> Pediatrics, Beth Israel
>
>   Medical Center
>
>   4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de
> Rothschild Chemical
>
>   Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center
>
>
>   5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant
> Development Center, Women and
>
>   Infants’ Hospital
>
>   6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of
> Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas
>
>   University Medical Center
>
>   7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston
> University School of Social
> Work,
>
>   Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research
> and Training
>
>   8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training
> Consultant, Former
> Assistant
>
>   Director of Research, Chemical Dependency
> Institute, Beth Israel Medical
>
>   Center
>
>   9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal
> Medicine, Penn State Hershey
>
>   Medical Center
>
>   10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of
> OB/GYN, University of Chicago
>
>   11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor,
> Department of OB/GYN, NYU
> School
>
>   of Medicine
>
>   12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of
> Public Health and OB/GYN,
>
>   Columbia University, Mailman School of Public
> Health
>
>   13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of
> OB/GYN, University
>
>   Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve
> University School of Medicine
>
>   14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health
> Education Center, Dept. of
> OB/GYN
>
>   15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of
> Medicine, University of New
> Mexico
>
>   16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary
> Care, NYU School of Medicine
>
>   17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of
> Epidemiology and Social Medicine,
>
>   Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School
> of Medicine
>
>   18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the
> Practice of Medical Ethics,
>
>   Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and
> Humanities, Duke University
>
>   Medical Center
>
>   19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate
> Professor, Department of
>
>   Psychiatry, University of Chicago
>
>   20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor,
> Dept. of Sociology, UC
> Santa
>
>   Cruz
>
>   21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
> Washington University
>
>   22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor
> of Sociology, UC Santa
> Cruz
>
>   23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health
> Policy and Management,
>
>   Wagner/NYU
>
>   24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor
> of Nursing,
> Women’s
>
>   Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction,
> Dominican University of
>
>   California
>
>   25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director
> of the Chemical
> Dependency
>
>   Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center
>
>   26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild
> Chemical Dependency Institute
>
>   of Beth Israel Medical Center
>
>   27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
> Rensselaer Polytechnic
>
>   Institute
>
>   28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor,
> University of Illinois at
> Chicago
>
>   29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of
> Public Health & Health
>
>   Services
>
>   30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate
> Professor, Rutgers University
>
>   31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
> Rutgers University
>
>   32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of
> Sociology, Anthropology and
> Criminal
>
>   Justice,
>
>   Rutgers University
>
>   33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant
> Professor, Princeton University
>
>   34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor,
> University of Iowa
>
>   35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
> Fordham University
>
>   36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate
> Professor, University of Chicago
>
>   37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College
>
>   38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor,
> Evergreen State College
>
>   39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center
> for Urban Epidemiologic
>
>   Studies, New York Academy of Medicine
>
>   40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for
> Scientific Analysis
>
>   41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health
> Partners
>
>   42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN,
> Mountain Area Health Education
>
>   Center
>
>   43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants
> Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,
>
>   Mountain Area Health Education Center
>
>   44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women’s Health,
> Mountain Area Health Education
>
>   Center
>
>   45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator,
> Mountain Area Perinatal
>
>   Substance Abuse Program
>
>   46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain
> Area Perinatal Substance
>
>   Abuse Program
>
>   47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior
> Medicine, Mountain Area
>
>   Health Education Center
>
>   48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area
> Health Education Center
>
>   49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area
> Health Education Center
>
>   50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction
> Specialist, Mountain Area
>
>   Health Education Center
>
>   51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal
> Substance Abuse Program
>
>   52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE
>
>   53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm
> Reduction Project
>
>   54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D
>
>   55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.
>
>   56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian
>
>   57. National Women’s Health Network
>
>   58. National Black Women’s Health Project
>
>   59. National Association for Public Health Policy
> Council on Illicit Drugs
>
>   60. Institute for Health and Recovery
>
>   61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
>
>   62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
> of Arkansas & Oklahoma
>
>   63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
> of DC
>
>   64. Connecticut Women’s Consortium
>
>   65. Casa Segura
>
>   66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center
>
>   67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog
>
>   68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic
>
>   69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates
>
>   70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
>
>   71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention
> Project
>
>   72. AIDS Project New Haven
>
>   73. HIV Law Project
>
>   74. ASPIRE
>
>   75. Drug Policy Alliance
>
>   76. Urban Justice Center
>
>   77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute
>
>   78. Center for Human Rights Education
>
>   79. Family Watch
>
>   80. Committee on Women, Population, and the
> Environment
>
>   81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS
>
>   82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners
>
>   83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children
>
>   84. NORML Foundation
>
>   85. Common Sense for Drug Policy
>
>   86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii
>
>   87. ReconsiDer
>
>   88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse
>
>   89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War
>
>   90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm
> Reduction Coalition
>
>   91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense
> for Drug Policy
>
>   92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML
>
>   93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont
> Harm Reduction Coalition
>
>   94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care
> Methadone Clinic
>
>   95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services
> for Prisoners with
>
>   Children
>
>   96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction
> Services, Cambridge Cares
> About
>
>   AIDS
>
>   97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program
> Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
> About
>
>   AIDS
>
>   98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport
> Health Department
>
>   99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and
> Recovery
>
>   100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population,
> and the Environment
>
>   101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside
>
>   102. Stephanie Manfre, Children’s Case
> Manager, Riley Center
>
>   103. Ann Beck, Riley Center
>
>   104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center
>
>   105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center
>
>   106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House
>
>   107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center
>
>   108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center
>
>   109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center
>
>   110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center
>
>   111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center
>
>   112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center
>
>   113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of
> Public Health
>
>   114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of
> Public Health
>
>   115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of
> Public Health
>
>   116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and
> Abuse
>
>   117. Theryn Kigvamasud’Vashti, Communities
> Against Rape and Abuse
>
>   118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator,
> Communities Against Rape and Abuse
>
>   119. Shane Felles
>
>   120. Brion Roberts
>
>   121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access
> Project
>
>   122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director,
> NARAL – NH
>
>   123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund
>
>   124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety
> First Project, Drug Policy
>
>   Alliance
>
>   125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical
> Center
>
>   126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive
> Director, Neighborhood Youth &
>
>   Family Services
>
>   127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System
>
>   128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico
> Prenatal Care Network,
>
>   University of New Mexico
>
>   129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug
> Dependence
>
>   130. Gloria Knighton
>
>   131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions
>
>   132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
>
>   133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 21, 2002 at 3:35:43 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OOPS, sorry bout that, finger slipped.

http://www.atwatchdog.org/opinion_crack.html

C.R.A.C.K. targets Methadone Maintenance Patients
An organization called C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
patients on methadone maintenance with their offer of
$200 to submit to sterilization or limited birth
control methods. Form letters are being sent to
clinics across the U.S.

C.R.A.C.K.- Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity
otherwise known as is mailing form letters to U.S.
Opiate Treatment Programs. C.R.A.C.K. is targeting
methadone maintenance patients for coercive
sterilization or limited birth control options. Please
help prevent this violation of human and civil rights
that threatens reproduction freedom.

——————————————————————————–

The form letter being sent to clinic reads:

To Whom It May Concern:

Our organization offers cash incentives to both men
and women that are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol to
use long-term or permanent birth control.

We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our offer known, and available to
the women and men who come through their program. I’m
sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those using methadone or other drugs to
refrain from getting pregnant.

Please call (888) 30-CRACK if you would like more
information, or more of the items that have been
enclosed.

Our program is currently in over 20 cities nationwide,
and has paid over 600 men and women to obtain
long-term birth control. Thank you for the time , and
we hope to establish a working relationship with you,
for both the benefit of the woman, and potential
child.

Sincerely

Barbara Harris
Founder and Director
C.R.A.C.K.
11642 Knott Ave. Suite 8
Garden Grove, CA 92841
Phone: 714-901-9862
FAX: 714-901-9832

——————————————————————————–

By offering patients $200 to entice them to undergo
sterilization or use selected birth control methods,
C.R.A.C.K. is sending the message that methadone is
‘just another drug’ and patients are using it as a
substitute for illicit opiates. By supporting
C.R.A.C.K., programs are sending the same message to
their patients.
Please support and respect your patients and your
program by mailing the form letters back to C.R.A.C.K.
with a loud ‘NO!’.

——————————————————————————–

– CRACK’s Washington, DC Chapter placed ads in DC
Metrobuses that targeted primarily low-income and
predominately African-American communities in DC. Ads
are targeting low-income, African -Americans. One of
CRACK’s supporters and financial contributors is Chris
Brand, a British psychologist – Brand, a
self-proclaimed “race realist,” claims that blacks are
intellectually inferior to whites, and advocates
taking a “eugenic” approach to “wanton and criminal
females.” see
http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html

– CRACK violates civil and human rights, and
reproductive freedoms by targeting minorities and
low-income people. This small amount of cash is
offered for sterilization or birth control without
regard to the individual’s circumstances or future.

– CRACK limits birth control options. CRACK LIMITS
BIRTH CONTROL OPTIONS. CRACK irresponsibly limits
birth control options by compensating only for
long-term, provider-controlled methods: tubal
ligation, Norplant, Depo-Provera and IUDs. Barrier
methods and methods which protect against HIV
infection and other sexually transmitted diseases are
not compensated. CRACK may actually increase a woman’s
risk of contracting HIV or other STDs, since it
exclusively advances birth control methods which
provide no protection against these infections.

– CRACK’s founder admits that the money given to these
individuals is probably used to buy more drugs, and
says that is their choice.

– If CRACK was really concerned about infants born to
drug-addicted parents, they should spend the $200 on
treatment for the parents, not sterilization or birth
control.

– CRACK is offering a ‘bribe’ to drug addicted women.
They are being coerced because of their desperate need
for money to buy drugs. Their drug addiction is being
used to exploit them. CRACK targets vulnerable women
with few options.

– Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a supporter. Need I say
more?

– Harris says. “People say it is a disease, fine. But
it is a disease of choice — however they got there
and whatever their background and however screwed up
their life is….”
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html

– “Harris’ critics also warn about the slippery slope.
“Today it is targeting and criminalizing drug abuse,
but what will it be tomorrow?” asks the ACLU’s
Cordoba. “If you take it to its logical conclusion,
you could have a program or policy that monitors the
kind of food a woman eats while she is pregnant, or
whether she exercises enough, or whether she has a
glass of wine or a cup of coffee.” Blum voices similar
concerns. “Where does it stop? Next do we start
sterilizing people who don’t take their
multivitamins?””
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html

-CRACK’s disregard for the women it targets is
evidenced in Barbara Harris’ statement: “We don’t
allow dogs to breed. We spay them. We neuter them. We
try to keep them from having unwanted puppies, and yet
these women are literally having litters of
children

– CRACK denies poor, marginalized women with substance
abuse problems their procreative ability, and this is
a human rights violation.
http://www.cwpe.org/old_website/pdf/crackfacts.pdf

See Family Watch letter to CRACK
http://www.familywatch.org/crack.htm

Salon

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/07/cov_10feature2.html

Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/ND01/surgical.html

Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
http://www.cwpe.org/index1.html

American Public Health Association
http://www.apha.org/legislative/policy/policysearch/index.cfm?fuseaction=view&id=261

Who’s next? Where will this end? Which group of people
will be next on C.R.A.C.K.’s list of victims?

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM,
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

Hey Howard,
Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can
link to it at Drugwar.com?
Thanks.
peace,
Preston

Preston,

The letter originated with
http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that
Barbara Harris and
C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.

Howard
*********
—– Original Message —–

From: HSLotsof@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM

Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

Barbara Harris

Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s

“Project Prevention”

P.O. Box 74

Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to
your distribution of

highly misleading and completely inaccurate
information regarding pregnant

women and methadone treatment. In a letter date
February 22, 2002, you
state,

in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our
offer

known, and available, to the women and men who
come through their program.

I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those
using

methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting
pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement,
suggesting that it is

dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically
prescribed methadone

treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong.
Methadone is a highly

effective treatment for all opiate dependent
patients and, most
specifically,

for women – both before and after they may become
pregnant. In fact,
methadone

treatment during pregnancy has not been
associated with congenital

abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases
where neonatal withdrawal

symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these
symptoms can be treated

readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on
physical or cognitive

development. In short, there is simply no medical
basis for your suggestion

that methadone patients should “refrain from
getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the
world, methadone maintenance

treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially
reduce illegal opiate use
and

the crime, illness, suffering, and death with
which it is associated. The

benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to
the individual patient, but

to his/her family and the community, as well. The
most credible and
objective

governmental and non-governmental organizations in
America and abroad have

recognized these positive results with MMT. For
example, the US Department
of

Health and Human Services joins the scientific
community in recognizing
that

MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the
general community. It is

specifically recommended for pregnant and
breast-feeding patients, which

further demonstrates the strong medical consensus
supporting methadone

treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many
benefits, it is available

to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it.
Women, in particular,
face

numerous barriers to obtaining this important
medical intervention. Your

letter and activities, which spread false
information and stigmatize
current

and future mothers who receive this treatment,
will make it even more

difficult for women who need methadone treatment
to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter
immediately and to advise
each

of those individuals and clinics who received it
that it was based on

misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that
you publicly repudiate
the

inaccurate message you conveyed on your
organization’s website and in other

public and media context. Not to do so would be
irresponsible and a great

disservice to those whose interests you claim to
have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and
Psychiatry, Case Western

Reserve University, School of Medicine

2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of
Pediatrics, Albert Einstein

College of Medicine

3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of
Pediatrics, Beth Israel

Medical Center

4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de
Rothschild Chemical

Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center

5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant
Development Center, Women and

Infants’ Hospital

6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of
Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas

University Medical Center

7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston
University School of Social
Work,

Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research
and Training

8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training
Consultant, Former
Assistant

Director of Research, Chemical Dependency
Institute, Beth Israel Medical

Center

9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal
Medicine, Penn State Hershey

Medical Center

10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of
OB/GYN, University of Chicago

11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor,
Department of OB/GYN, NYU
School

of Medicine

12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of
Public Health and OB/GYN,

Columbia University, Mailman School of Public
Health

13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of
OB/GYN, University

Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve
University School of Medicine

14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health
Education Center, Dept. of
OB/GYN

15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of
Medicine, University of New
Mexico

16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary
Care, NYU School of Medicine

17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of
Epidemiology and Social Medicine,

Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School
of Medicine

18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the
Practice of Medical Ethics,

Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and
Humanities, Duke University

Medical Center

19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate
Professor, Department of

Psychiatry, University of Chicago

20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor,
Dept. of Sociology, UC
Santa

Cruz

21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Washington University

22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor
of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz

23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health
Policy and Management,

Wagner/NYU

24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor
of Nursing,
Women’s

Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction,
Dominican University of

California

25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director
of the Chemical
Dependency

Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center

26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild
Chemical Dependency Institute

of Beth Israel Medical Center

27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Rensselaer Polytechnic

Institute

28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor,
University of Illinois at
Chicago

29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of
Public Health & Health

Services

30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, Rutgers University

31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Rutgers University

32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of
Sociology, Anthropology and
Criminal

Justice,

Rutgers University

33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant
Professor, Princeton University

34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor,
University of Iowa

35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Fordham University

36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, University of Chicago

37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College

38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor,
Evergreen State College

39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center
for Urban Epidemiologic

Studies, New York Academy of Medicine

40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for
Scientific Analysis

41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health
Partners

42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants
Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,

Mountain Area Health Education Center

44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women’s Health,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator,
Mountain Area Perinatal

Substance Abuse Program

46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain
Area Perinatal Substance

Abuse Program

47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior
Medicine, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction
Specialist, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal
Substance Abuse Program

52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE

53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm
Reduction Project

54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D

55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.

56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian

57. National Women’s Health Network

58. National Black Women’s Health Project

59. National Association for Public Health Policy
Council on Illicit Drugs

60. Institute for Health and Recovery

61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)

62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of Arkansas & Oklahoma

63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of DC

64. Connecticut Women’s Consortium

65. Casa Segura

66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center

67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog

68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates

70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention
Project

72. AIDS Project New Haven

73. HIV Law Project

74. ASPIRE

75. Drug Policy Alliance

76. Urban Justice Center

77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute

78. Center for Human Rights Education

79. Family Watch

80. Committee on Women, Population, and the
Environment

81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS

82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners

83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children

84. NORML Foundation

85. Common Sense for Drug Policy

86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii

87. ReconsiDer

88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse

89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War

90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm
Reduction Coalition

91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense
for Drug Policy

92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML

93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont
Harm Reduction Coalition

94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care
Methadone Clinic

95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services
for Prisoners with

Children

96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction
Services, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program
Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport
Health Department

99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and
Recovery

100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population,
and the Environment

101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside

102. Stephanie Manfre, Children’s Case
Manager, Riley Center

103. Ann Beck, Riley Center

104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center

105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center

106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House

107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center

108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center

109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center

110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center

111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center

112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center

113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and
Abuse

117. Theryn Kigvamasud’Vashti, Communities
Against Rape and Abuse

118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator,
Communities Against Rape and Abuse

119. Shane Felles

120. Brion Roberts

121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access
Project

122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director,
NARAL – NH

123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund

124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety
First Project, Drug Policy

Alliance

125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical
Center

126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive
Director, Neighborhood Youth &

Family Services

127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System

128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico
Prenatal Care Network,

University of New Mexico

129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug
Dependence

130. Gloria Knighton

131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions

132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates

133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K Original statement and more comments
Date: July 21, 2002 at 3:33:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM,
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

Hey Howard,
Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can
link to it at Drugwar.com?
Thanks.
peace,
Preston

Preston,

The letter originated with
http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that
Barbara Harris and
C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.

Howard
*********
—– Original Message —–

From: HSLotsof@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM

Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

Barbara Harris

Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s

“Project Prevention”

P.O. Box 74

Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to
your distribution of

highly misleading and completely inaccurate
information regarding pregnant

women and methadone treatment. In a letter date
February 22, 2002, you
state,

in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our
offer

known, and available, to the women and men who
come through their program.

I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those
using

methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting
pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement,
suggesting that it is

dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically
prescribed methadone

treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong.
Methadone is a highly

effective treatment for all opiate dependent
patients and, most
specifically,

for women – both before and after they may become
pregnant. In fact,
methadone

treatment during pregnancy has not been
associated with congenital

abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases
where neonatal withdrawal

symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these
symptoms can be treated

readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on
physical or cognitive

development. In short, there is simply no medical
basis for your suggestion

that methadone patients should “refrain from
getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the
world, methadone maintenance

treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially
reduce illegal opiate use
and

the crime, illness, suffering, and death with
which it is associated. The

benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to
the individual patient, but

to his/her family and the community, as well. The
most credible and
objective

governmental and non-governmental organizations in
America and abroad have

recognized these positive results with MMT. For
example, the US Department
of

Health and Human Services joins the scientific
community in recognizing
that

MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the
general community. It is

specifically recommended for pregnant and
breast-feeding patients, which

further demonstrates the strong medical consensus
supporting methadone

treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many
benefits, it is available

to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it.
Women, in particular,
face

numerous barriers to obtaining this important
medical intervention. Your

letter and activities, which spread false
information and stigmatize
current

and future mothers who receive this treatment,
will make it even more

difficult for women who need methadone treatment
to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter
immediately and to advise
each

of those individuals and clinics who received it
that it was based on

misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that
you publicly repudiate
the

inaccurate message you conveyed on your
organization’s website and in other

public and media context. Not to do so would be
irresponsible and a great

disservice to those whose interests you claim to
have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and
Psychiatry, Case Western

Reserve University, School of Medicine

2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of
Pediatrics, Albert Einstein

College of Medicine

3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of
Pediatrics, Beth Israel

Medical Center

4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de
Rothschild Chemical

Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center

5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant
Development Center, Women and

Infants’ Hospital

6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of
Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas

University Medical Center

7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston
University School of Social
Work,

Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research
and Training

8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training
Consultant, Former
Assistant

Director of Research, Chemical Dependency
Institute, Beth Israel Medical

Center

9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal
Medicine, Penn State Hershey

Medical Center

10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of
OB/GYN, University of Chicago

11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor,
Department of OB/GYN, NYU
School

of Medicine

12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of
Public Health and OB/GYN,

Columbia University, Mailman School of Public
Health

13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of
OB/GYN, University

Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve
University School of Medicine

14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health
Education Center, Dept. of
OB/GYN

15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of
Medicine, University of New
Mexico

16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary
Care, NYU School of Medicine

17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of
Epidemiology and Social Medicine,

Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School
of Medicine

18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the
Practice of Medical Ethics,

Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and
Humanities, Duke University

Medical Center

19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate
Professor, Department of

Psychiatry, University of Chicago

20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor,
Dept. of Sociology, UC
Santa

Cruz

21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Washington University

22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor
of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz

23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health
Policy and Management,

Wagner/NYU

24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor
of Nursing,
Women’s

Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction,
Dominican University of

California

25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director
of the Chemical
Dependency

Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center

26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild
Chemical Dependency Institute

of Beth Israel Medical Center

27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Rensselaer Polytechnic

Institute

28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor,
University of Illinois at
Chicago

29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of
Public Health & Health

Services

30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, Rutgers University

31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Rutgers University

32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of
Sociology, Anthropology and
Criminal

Justice,

Rutgers University

33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant
Professor, Princeton University

34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor,
University of Iowa

35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Fordham University

36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, University of Chicago

37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College

38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor,
Evergreen State College

39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center
for Urban Epidemiologic

Studies, New York Academy of Medicine

40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for
Scientific Analysis

41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health
Partners

42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants
Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,

Mountain Area Health Education Center

44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women’s Health,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator,
Mountain Area Perinatal

Substance Abuse Program

46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain
Area Perinatal Substance

Abuse Program

47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior
Medicine, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction
Specialist, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal
Substance Abuse Program

52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE

53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm
Reduction Project

54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D

55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.

56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian

57. National Women’s Health Network

58. National Black Women’s Health Project

59. National Association for Public Health Policy
Council on Illicit Drugs

60. Institute for Health and Recovery

61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)

62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of Arkansas & Oklahoma

63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of DC

64. Connecticut Women’s Consortium

65. Casa Segura

66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center

67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog

68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates

70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention
Project

72. AIDS Project New Haven

73. HIV Law Project

74. ASPIRE

75. Drug Policy Alliance

76. Urban Justice Center

77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute

78. Center for Human Rights Education

79. Family Watch

80. Committee on Women, Population, and the
Environment

81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS

82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners

83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children

84. NORML Foundation

85. Common Sense for Drug Policy

86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii

87. ReconsiDer

88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse

89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War

90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm
Reduction Coalition

91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense
for Drug Policy

92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML

93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont
Harm Reduction Coalition

94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care
Methadone Clinic

95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services
for Prisoners with

Children

96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction
Services, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program
Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport
Health Department

99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and
Recovery

100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population,
and the Environment

101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside

102. Stephanie Manfre, Children’s Case
Manager, Riley Center

103. Ann Beck, Riley Center

104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center

105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center

106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House

107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center

108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center

109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center

110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center

111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center

112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center

113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and
Abuse

117. Theryn Kigvamasud’Vashti, Communities
Against Rape and Abuse

118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator,
Communities Against Rape and Abuse

119. Shane Felles

120. Brion Roberts

121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access
Project

122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director,
NARAL – NH

123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund

124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety
First Project, Drug Policy

Alliance

125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical
Center

126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive
Director, Neighborhood Youth &

Family Services

127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System

128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico
Prenatal Care Network,

University of New Mexico

129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug
Dependence

130. Gloria Knighton

131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions

132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates

133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: July 21, 2002 at 3:33:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My wife is from Thailand.  She got the hell out.

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;                            ;,
,;                                  ;,
; ;          .           .         ; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 21, 2002 at 3:10:49 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks howard
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

>Hey Howard,
>Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can link to it at Drugwar.com?
>Thanks.
>peace,
>Preston

Preston,

The letter originated with http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that Barbara Harris and
C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.

Howard
*********
—– Original Message —–

From: HSLotsof@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM

Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

Barbara Harris

Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s

“Project Prevention”

P.O. Box 74

Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to your distribution of

highly misleading and completely inaccurate information regarding pregnant

women and methadone treatment. In a letter date February 22, 2002, you
state,

in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone clinics that make our
offer

known, and available, to the women and men who come through their program.

I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is important for those
using

methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement, suggesting that it is

dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically prescribed methadone

treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong. Methadone is a highly

effective treatment for all opiate dependent patients and, most
specifically,

for women – both before and after they may become pregnant. In fact,
methadone

treatment during pregnancy has not been associated with congenital

abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases where neonatal withdrawal

symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these symptoms can be treated

readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on physical or cognitive

development. In short, there is simply no medical basis for your suggestion

that methadone patients should “refrain from getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the world, methadone maintenance

treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially reduce illegal opiate use
and

the crime, illness, suffering, and death with which it is associated. The

benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to the individual patient, but

to his/her family and the community, as well. The most credible and
objective

governmental and non-governmental organizations in America and abroad have

recognized these positive results with MMT. For example, the US Department
of

Health and Human Services joins the scientific community in recognizing
that

MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the general community. It is

specifically recommended for pregnant and breast-feeding patients, which

further demonstrates the strong medical consensus supporting methadone

treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many benefits, it is available

to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it. Women, in particular,
face

numerous barriers to obtaining this important medical intervention. Your

letter and activities, which spread false information and stigmatize
current

and future mothers who receive this treatment, will make it even more

difficult for women who need methadone treatment to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter immediately and to advise
each

of those individuals and clinics who received it that it was based on

misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that you publicly repudiate
the

inaccurate message you conveyed on your organization’s website and in other

public and media context. Not to do so would be irresponsible and a great

disservice to those whose interests you claim to have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and Psychiatry, Case Western

Reserve University, School of Medicine

2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of Pediatrics, Albert Einstein

College of Medicine

3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of Pediatrics, Beth Israel

Medical Center

4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical

Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center

5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant Development Center, Women and

Infants&#8217; Hospital

6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas

University Medical Center

7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston University School of Social
Work,

Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research and Training

8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training Consultant, Former
Assistant

Director of Research, Chemical Dependency Institute, Beth Israel Medical

Center

9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal Medicine, Penn State Hershey

Medical Center

10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of OB/GYN, University of Chicago

11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of OB/GYN, NYU
School

of Medicine

12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of Public Health and OB/GYN,

Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health

13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of OB/GYN, University

Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine

14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health Education Center, Dept. of
OB/GYN

15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of Medicine, University of New
Mexico

16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary Care, NYU School of Medicine

17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of Epidemiology and Social Medicine,

Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School of Medicine

18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the Practice of Medical Ethics,

Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and Humanities, Duke University

Medical Center

19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate Professor, Department of

Psychiatry, University of Chicago

20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor, Dept. of Sociology, UC
Santa

Cruz

21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Washington University

22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz

23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health Policy and Management,

Wagner/NYU

24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor of Nursing,
Women&#8217;s

Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction, Dominican University of

California

25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director of the Chemical
Dependency

Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center

26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical Dependency Institute

of Beth Israel Medical Center

27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Rensselaer Polytechnic

Institute

28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor, University of Illinois at
Chicago

29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of Public Health & Health

Services

30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University

31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University

32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of Sociology, Anthropology and
Criminal

Justice,

Rutgers University

33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Princeton University

34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor, University of Iowa

35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Fordham University

36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate Professor, University of Chicago

37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College

38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor, Evergreen State College

39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center for Urban Epidemiologic

Studies, New York Academy of Medicine

40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for Scientific Analysis

41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health Partners

42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education

Center

43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,

Mountain Area Health Education Center

44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women&#8217;s Health, Mountain Area Health Education

Center

45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator, Mountain Area Perinatal

Substance Abuse Program

46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance

Abuse Program

47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior Medicine, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area Health Education Center

49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education Center

50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction Specialist, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance Abuse Program

52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE

53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm Reduction Project

54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D

55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.

56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian

57. National Women’s Health Network

58. National Black Women&#8217;s Health Project

59. National Association for Public Health Policy Council on Illicit Drugs

60. Institute for Health and Recovery

61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)

62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of Arkansas & Oklahoma

63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of DC

64. Connecticut Women&#8217;s Consortium

65. Casa Segura

66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center

67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog

68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates

70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention Project

72. AIDS Project New Haven

73. HIV Law Project

74. ASPIRE

75. Drug Policy Alliance

76. Urban Justice Center

77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute

78. Center for Human Rights Education

79. Family Watch

80. Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment

81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS

82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners

83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children

84. NORML Foundation

85. Common Sense for Drug Policy

86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii

87. ReconsiDer

88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse

89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War

90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense for Drug Policy

92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML

93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services for Prisoners with

Children

96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction Services, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport Health Department

99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and Recovery

100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment

101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside

102. Stephanie Manfre, Children&#8217;s Case Manager, Riley Center

103. Ann Beck, Riley Center

104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center

105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center

106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House

107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center

108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center

109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center

110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center

111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center

112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center

113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of Public Health

114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of Public Health

115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of Public Health

116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and Abuse

117. Theryn Kigvamasud&#8217;Vashti, Communities Against Rape and Abuse

118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator, Communities Against Rape and Abuse

119. Shane Felles

120. Brion Roberts

121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access Project

122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director, NARAL &#8211; NH

123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund

124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety First Project, Drug Policy

Alliance

125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical Center

126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive Director, Neighborhood Youth &

Family Services

127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System

128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico Prenatal Care Network,

University of New Mexico

129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug Dependence

130. Gloria Knighton

131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions

132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates

133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

 

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 21, 2002 at 3:16:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It is here with some additional text;

http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/issues/crackpetition.htm

I am looking for the original CRACK statement and
didn’t read it yet however this looks like sound
common sense;

Ms. Harris stated “I’m sure one thing most can agree
on is that it is important for those using methadone
or other drugs to refrain from getting pregnant.”

Brett

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM,
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

Hey Howard,
Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can
link to it at Drugwar.com?
Thanks.
peace,
Preston

Preston,

The letter originated with
http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that
Barbara Harris and
C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.

Howard
*********
—– Original Message —–

From: HSLotsof@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM

Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

Barbara Harris

Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s

“Project Prevention”

P.O. Box 74

Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to
your distribution of

highly misleading and completely inaccurate
information regarding pregnant

women and methadone treatment. In a letter date
February 22, 2002, you
state,

in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone
clinics that make our
offer

known, and available, to the women and men who
come through their program.

I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is
important for those
using

methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting
pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement,
suggesting that it is

dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically
prescribed methadone

treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong.
Methadone is a highly

effective treatment for all opiate dependent
patients and, most
specifically,

for women – both before and after they may become
pregnant. In fact,
methadone

treatment during pregnancy has not been
associated with congenital

abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases
where neonatal withdrawal

symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these
symptoms can be treated

readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on
physical or cognitive

development. In short, there is simply no medical
basis for your suggestion

that methadone patients should “refrain from
getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the
world, methadone maintenance

treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially
reduce illegal opiate use
and

the crime, illness, suffering, and death with
which it is associated. The

benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to
the individual patient, but

to his/her family and the community, as well. The
most credible and
objective

governmental and non-governmental organizations in
America and abroad have

recognized these positive results with MMT. For
example, the US Department
of

Health and Human Services joins the scientific
community in recognizing
that

MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the
general community. It is

specifically recommended for pregnant and
breast-feeding patients, which

further demonstrates the strong medical consensus
supporting methadone

treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many
benefits, it is available

to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it.
Women, in particular,
face

numerous barriers to obtaining this important
medical intervention. Your

letter and activities, which spread false
information and stigmatize
current

and future mothers who receive this treatment,
will make it even more

difficult for women who need methadone treatment
to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter
immediately and to advise
each

of those individuals and clinics who received it
that it was based on

misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that
you publicly repudiate
the

inaccurate message you conveyed on your
organization’s website and in other

public and media context. Not to do so would be
irresponsible and a great

disservice to those whose interests you claim to
have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and
Psychiatry, Case Western

Reserve University, School of Medicine

2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of
Pediatrics, Albert Einstein

College of Medicine

3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of
Pediatrics, Beth Israel

Medical Center

4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de
Rothschild Chemical

Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center

5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant
Development Center, Women and

Infants’ Hospital

6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of
Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas

University Medical Center

7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston
University School of Social
Work,

Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research
and Training

8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training
Consultant, Former
Assistant

Director of Research, Chemical Dependency
Institute, Beth Israel Medical

Center

9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal
Medicine, Penn State Hershey

Medical Center

10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of
OB/GYN, University of Chicago

11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor,
Department of OB/GYN, NYU
School

of Medicine

12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of
Public Health and OB/GYN,

Columbia University, Mailman School of Public
Health

13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of
OB/GYN, University

Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve
University School of Medicine

14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health
Education Center, Dept. of
OB/GYN

15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of
Medicine, University of New
Mexico

16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary
Care, NYU School of Medicine

17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of
Epidemiology and Social Medicine,

Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School
of Medicine

18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the
Practice of Medical Ethics,

Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and
Humanities, Duke University

Medical Center

19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate
Professor, Department of

Psychiatry, University of Chicago

20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor,
Dept. of Sociology, UC
Santa

Cruz

21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Washington University

22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor
of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz

23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health
Policy and Management,

Wagner/NYU

24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor
of Nursing,
Women’s

Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction,
Dominican University of

California

25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director
of the Chemical
Dependency

Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center

26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild
Chemical Dependency Institute

of Beth Israel Medical Center

27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor,
Rensselaer Polytechnic

Institute

28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor,
University of Illinois at
Chicago

29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of
Public Health & Health

Services

30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, Rutgers University

31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Rutgers University

32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of
Sociology, Anthropology and
Criminal

Justice,

Rutgers University

33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant
Professor, Princeton University

34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor,
University of Iowa

35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor,
Fordham University

36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate
Professor, University of Chicago

37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College

38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor,
Evergreen State College

39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center
for Urban Epidemiologic

Studies, New York Academy of Medicine

40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for
Scientific Analysis

41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health
Partners

42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants
Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,

Mountain Area Health Education Center

44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women’s Health,
Mountain Area Health Education

Center

45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator,
Mountain Area Perinatal

Substance Abuse Program

46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain
Area Perinatal Substance

Abuse Program

47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior
Medicine, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area
Health Education Center

50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction
Specialist, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal
Substance Abuse Program

52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE

53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm
Reduction Project

54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D

55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.

56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian

57. National Women’s Health Network

58. National Black Women’s Health Project

59. National Association for Public Health Policy
Council on Illicit Drugs

60. Institute for Health and Recovery

61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)

62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of Arkansas & Oklahoma

63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
of DC

64. Connecticut Women’s Consortium

65. Casa Segura

66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center

67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog

68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates

70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention
Project

72. AIDS Project New Haven

73. HIV Law Project

74. ASPIRE

75. Drug Policy Alliance

76. Urban Justice Center

77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute

78. Center for Human Rights Education

79. Family Watch

80. Committee on Women, Population, and the
Environment

81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS

82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners

83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children

84. NORML Foundation

85. Common Sense for Drug Policy

86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii

87. ReconsiDer

88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse

89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War

90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm
Reduction Coalition

91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense
for Drug Policy

92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML

93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont
Harm Reduction Coalition

94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care
Methadone Clinic

95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services
for Prisoners with

Children

96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction
Services, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program
Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport
Health Department

99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and
Recovery

100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population,
and the Environment

101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside

102. Stephanie Manfre, Children’s Case
Manager, Riley Center

103. Ann Beck, Riley Center

104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center

105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center

106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House

107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center

108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center

109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center

110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center

111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center

112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center

113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of
Public Health

116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and
Abuse

117. Theryn Kigvamasud’Vashti, Communities
Against Rape and Abuse

118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator,
Communities Against Rape and Abuse

119. Shane Felles

120. Brion Roberts

121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access
Project

122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director,
NARAL – NH

123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund

124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety
First Project, Drug Policy

Alliance

125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical
Center

126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive
Director, Neighborhood Youth &

Family Services

127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System

128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico
Prenatal Care Network,

University of New Mexico

129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug
Dependence

130. Gloria Knighton

131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions

132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates

133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health – Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 21, 2002 at 2:02:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/21/02 1:38:23 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

Hey Howard,
Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can link to it at Drugwar.com?
Thanks.
peace,
Preston

Preston,

The letter originated with http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/  but, I
didn’t see it on their web page.  I just felt that Barbara Harris and
C.R.A.C.K were getting into dangerous areas.

Howard
*********
—– Original Message —–

From: HSLotsof@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM

Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

Barbara Harris

Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s

“Project Prevention”

P.O. Box 74

Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to your distribution of

highly misleading and completely inaccurate information regarding pregnant

women and methadone treatment. In a letter date February 22, 2002, you
state,

in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone clinics that make our
offer

known, and available, to the women and men who come through their program.

I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is important for those
using

methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement, suggesting that it is

dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically prescribed methadone

treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong. Methadone is a highly

effective treatment for all opiate dependent patients and, most
specifically,

for women – both before and after they may become pregnant. In fact,
methadone

treatment during pregnancy has not been associated with congenital

abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases where neonatal withdrawal

symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these symptoms can be treated

readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on physical or cognitive

development. In short, there is simply no medical basis for your suggestion

that methadone patients should “refrain from getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the world, methadone maintenance

treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially reduce illegal opiate use
and

the crime, illness, suffering, and death with which it is associated. The

benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to the individual patient, but

to his/her family and the community, as well. The most credible and
objective

governmental and non-governmental organizations in America and abroad have

recognized these positive results with MMT. For example, the US Department
of

Health and Human Services joins the scientific community in recognizing
that

MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the general community. It is

specifically recommended for pregnant and breast-feeding patients, which

further demonstrates the strong medical consensus supporting methadone

treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many benefits, it is available

to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it. Women, in particular,
face

numerous barriers to obtaining this important medical intervention. Your

letter and activities, which spread false information and stigmatize
current

and future mothers who receive this treatment, will make it even more

difficult for women who need methadone treatment to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter immediately and to advise
each

of those individuals and clinics who received it that it was based on

misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that you publicly repudiate
the

inaccurate message you conveyed on your organization’s website and in other

public and media context. Not to do so would be irresponsible and a great

disservice to those whose interests you claim to have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and Psychiatry, Case Western

Reserve University, School of Medicine

2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of Pediatrics, Albert Einstein

College of Medicine

3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of Pediatrics, Beth Israel

Medical Center

4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical

Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center

5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant Development Center, Women and

Infants&#8217; Hospital

6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas

University Medical Center

7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston University School of Social
Work,

Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research and Training

8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training Consultant, Former
Assistant

Director of Research, Chemical Dependency Institute, Beth Israel Medical

Center

9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal Medicine, Penn State Hershey

Medical Center

10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of OB/GYN, University of Chicago

11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of OB/GYN, NYU
School

of Medicine

12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of Public Health and OB/GYN,

Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health

13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of OB/GYN, University

Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine

14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health Education Center, Dept. of
OB/GYN

15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of Medicine, University of New
Mexico

16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary Care, NYU School of Medicine

17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of Epidemiology and Social Medicine,

Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School of Medicine

18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the Practice of Medical Ethics,

Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and Humanities, Duke University

Medical Center

19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate Professor, Department of

Psychiatry, University of Chicago

20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor, Dept. of Sociology, UC
Santa

Cruz

21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Washington University

22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz

23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health Policy and Management,

Wagner/NYU

24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor of Nursing,
Women&#8217;s

Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction, Dominican University of

California

25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director of the Chemical
Dependency

Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center

26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical Dependency Institute

of Beth Israel Medical Center

27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Rensselaer Polytechnic

Institute

28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor, University of Illinois at
Chicago

29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of Public Health & Health

Services

30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University

31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University

32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of Sociology, Anthropology and
Criminal

Justice,

Rutgers University

33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Princeton University

34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor, University of Iowa

35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Fordham University

36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate Professor, University of Chicago

37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College

38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor, Evergreen State College

39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center for Urban Epidemiologic

Studies, New York Academy of Medicine

40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for Scientific Analysis

41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health Partners

42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education

Center

43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,

Mountain Area Health Education Center

44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women&#8217;s Health, Mountain Area Health Education

Center

45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator, Mountain Area Perinatal

Substance Abuse Program

46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance

Abuse Program

47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior Medicine, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area Health Education Center

49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education Center

50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction Specialist, Mountain Area

Health Education Center

51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance Abuse Program

52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE

53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm Reduction Project

54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D

55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.

56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian

57. National Women’s Health Network

58. National Black Women&#8217;s Health Project

59. National Association for Public Health Policy Council on Illicit Drugs

60. Institute for Health and Recovery

61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)

62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of Arkansas & Oklahoma

63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of DC

64. Connecticut Women&#8217;s Consortium

65. Casa Segura

66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center

67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog

68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates

70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention Project

72. AIDS Project New Haven

73. HIV Law Project

74. ASPIRE

75. Drug Policy Alliance

76. Urban Justice Center

77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute

78. Center for Human Rights Education

79. Family Watch

80. Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment

81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS

82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners

83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children

84. NORML Foundation

85. Common Sense for Drug Policy

86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii

87. ReconsiDer

88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse

89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War

90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense for Drug Policy

92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML

93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition

94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic

95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services for Prisoners with

Children

96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction Services, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program Coordinator, Cambridge Cares
About

AIDS

98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport Health Department

99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and Recovery

100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment

101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside

102. Stephanie Manfre, Children&#8217;s Case Manager, Riley Center

103. Ann Beck, Riley Center

104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center

105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center

106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House

107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center

108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center

109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center

110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center

111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center

112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center

113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of Public Health

114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of Public Health

115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of Public Health

116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and Abuse

117. Theryn Kigvamasud&#8217;Vashti, Communities Against Rape and Abuse

118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator, Communities Against Rape and Abuse

119. Shane Felles

120. Brion Roberts

121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access Project

122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director, NARAL &#8211; NH

123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund

124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety First Project, Drug Policy

Alliance

125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical Center

126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive Director, Neighborhood Youth &

Family Services

127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System

128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico Prenatal Care Network,

University of New Mexico

129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug Dependence

130. Gloria Knighton

131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions

132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates

133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 21, 2002 at 1:30:11 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Howard,
Is this up online somewhere, with a link, so I can link to it at Drugwar.com?
Thanks.
peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:54 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K

Barbara Harris
Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s
“Project Prevention”
P.O. Box 74
Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to your distribution of
highly misleading and completely inaccurate information regarding pregnant
women and methadone treatment. In a letter date February 22, 2002, you state,
in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone clinics that make our offer
known, and available, to the women and men who come through their program.
I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is important for those using
methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement, suggesting that it is
dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically prescribed methadone
treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong. Methadone is a highly
effective treatment for all opiate dependent patients and, most specifically,
for women – both before and after they may become pregnant. In fact, methadone
treatment during pregnancy has not been associated with congenital
abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases where neonatal withdrawal
symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these symptoms can be treated
readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on physical or cognitive
development. In short, there is simply no medical basis for your suggestion
that methadone patients should “refrain from getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the world, methadone maintenance
treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially reduce illegal opiate use and
the crime, illness, suffering, and death with which it is associated. The
benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to the individual patient, but
to his/her family and the community, as well. The most credible and objective
governmental and non-governmental organizations in America and abroad have
recognized these positive results with MMT. For example, the US Department of
Health and Human Services joins the scientific community in recognizing that
MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the general community. It is
specifically recommended for pregnant and breast-feeding patients, which
further demonstrates the strong medical consensus supporting methadone
treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many benefits, it is available
to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it. Women, in particular, face
numerous barriers to obtaining this important medical intervention. Your
letter and activities, which spread false information and stigmatize current
and future mothers who receive this treatment, will make it even more
difficult for women who need methadone treatment to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter immediately and to advise each
of those individuals and clinics who received it that it was based on
misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that you publicly repudiate the
inaccurate message you conveyed on your organization’s website and in other
public and media context. Not to do so would be irresponsible and a great
disservice to those whose interests you claim to have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and Psychiatry, Case Western
Reserve University, School of Medicine
2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of Pediatrics, Albert Einstein
College of Medicine
3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of Pediatrics, Beth Israel
Medical Center
4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical
Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center
5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant Development Center, Women and
Infants&#8217; Hospital
6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas
University Medical Center
7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston University School of Social Work,
Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research and Training
8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training Consultant, Former Assistant
Director of Research, Chemical Dependency Institute, Beth Israel Medical
Center
9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal Medicine, Penn State Hershey
Medical Center
10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of OB/GYN, University of Chicago
11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of OB/GYN, NYU School
of Medicine
12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of Public Health and OB/GYN,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health
13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of OB/GYN, University
Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health Education Center, Dept. of OB/GYN
15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of Medicine, University of New Mexico
16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary Care, NYU School of Medicine
17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of Epidemiology and Social Medicine,
Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School of Medicine
18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the Practice of Medical Ethics,
Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and Humanities, Duke University
Medical Center
19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate Professor, Department of
Psychiatry, University of Chicago
20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor, Dept. of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz
21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Washington University
22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Sociology, UC Santa Cruz
23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health Policy and Management,
Wagner/NYU
24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor of Nursing, Women&#8217;s
Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction, Dominican University of
California
25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director of the Chemical Dependency
Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center
26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical Dependency Institute
of Beth Israel Medical Center
27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Rensselaer Polytechnic
Institute
28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor, University of Illinois at Chicago
29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of Public Health & Health
Services
30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University
31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University
32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of Sociology, Anthropology and Criminal
Justice,
Rutgers University
33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Princeton University
34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor, University of Iowa
35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Fordham University
36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate Professor, University of Chicago
37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College
38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor, Evergreen State College
39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center for Urban Epidemiologic
Studies, New York Academy of Medicine
40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for Scientific Analysis
41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health Partners
42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education
Center
43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,
Mountain Area Health Education Center
44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women&#8217;s Health, Mountain Area Health Education
Center
45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator, Mountain Area Perinatal
Substance Abuse Program
46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance
Abuse Program
47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior Medicine, Mountain Area
Health Education Center
48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area Health Education Center
49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education Center
50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction Specialist, Mountain Area
Health Education Center
51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance Abuse Program
52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE
53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm Reduction Project
54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D
55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.
56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian
57. National Women’s Health Network
58. National Black Women&#8217;s Health Project
59. National Association for Public Health Policy Council on Illicit Drugs
60. Institute for Health and Recovery
61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of Arkansas & Oklahoma
63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of DC
64. Connecticut Women&#8217;s Consortium
65. Casa Segura
66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center
67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog
68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic
69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates
70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention Project
72. AIDS Project New Haven
73. HIV Law Project
74. ASPIRE
75. Drug Policy Alliance
76. Urban Justice Center
77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute
78. Center for Human Rights Education
79. Family Watch
80. Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS
82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners
83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children
84. NORML Foundation
85. Common Sense for Drug Policy
86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii
87. ReconsiDer
88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse
89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War
90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense for Drug Policy
92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML
93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic
95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services for Prisoners with
Children
96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction Services, Cambridge Cares About
AIDS
97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program Coordinator, Cambridge Cares About
AIDS
98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport Health Department
99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and Recovery
100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside
102. Stephanie Manfre, Children&#8217;s Case Manager, Riley Center
103. Ann Beck, Riley Center
104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center
105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center
106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House
107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center
108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center
109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center
110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center
111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center
112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center
113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of Public Health
114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of Public Health
115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of Public Health
116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and Abuse
117. Theryn Kigvamasud&#8217;Vashti, Communities Against Rape and Abuse
118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator, Communities Against Rape and Abuse
119. Shane Felles
120. Brion Roberts
121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access Project
122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director, NARAL &#8211; NH
123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund
124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety First Project, Drug Policy
Alliance
125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical Center
126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive Director, Neighborhood Youth &
Family Services
127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System
128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico Prenatal Care Network,
University of New Mexico
129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug Dependence
130. Gloria Knighton
131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions
132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] this generation needs a vast active living information system
Date: July 21, 2002 at 12:36:58 PM EDT
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: MagickMirr@aol.com, dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, JhanDavis@aol.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “paul harvey” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Bcc:
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:34:45 +0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2002 18:34:46.0059 (UTC)
FILETIME=[1F3527B0:01C2301C]
Subject: [ibogaine] this generation needs a vast active living
information system
Status:

Everyone gets accepted into the academy eventually, even Burroughs in
his old age proudly wore his button badge of acceptance on his lapel.
Hollywood likes Philip K Dick because he is dead, plain and simple.
They can appropriate,distort and fuck with his message to its hearts
content.(check out PKD ‘s description of his treatment by Hollywood
over Bladerunner)

The one set of his books they will never turn into a screenplay is
the VALIS trilogy.(imagine: Tom Hanks as the intrepid Bishop Pike and
introducing Maddona’s brat Lourdes as the kid saviour St.Sophia 😉 )

However, you don’t need to wait to see if they do finally manage it,
all you have to do is take ibogaine and watch VALIS unfold all around
you in real time.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid
Date: July 21, 2002 at 12:28:18 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yer getting there nuero. At least it looks like a skull now, if just a bit…oh…odd? Ahhh, it’s a warped out skull, that’s the ticket!
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid

Paranoia and speed… Hey… That explains it.  Talking about myelf.  Actually that was Ephedrine… is that speed?  I lived on that stuff for like 3 years.

btw, i’m working on a skull signature, the people on vox seem reluctant to help. anyone here feel like helping me out with my skull?  Oh, and last night was rough.  Had the restless leg syndrome operating in high gear.. RLS… anyone here ever get that?  you feel like you have to move constantly.  Even if you’re dead tired, you just have to move move move.

In a message dated 7/20/2002 9:53:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

He became addicted to amphetamines, which lifted his depression but deepened his paranoia.

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;                            ;,
,;                                  ;,
; ;          .           .         ; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^
This skull just doesn’t look right… i want a cool looking skull for my permanent signature…

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: July 21, 2002 at 10:26:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t want to disturb your art or your rant but as I
think you said the hmong have been in the process of
being thrown out for 30 or 40 years. Every article you
look up is the army going there and killing some hmong,
americans and then saying it will be closed down.
Here’s one that says it from 2000

http://www.geocities.com/hmongvoice/DestroyHmongs.htm

There are no more recent stories from that newspaper
and they dont have the back issues.

.:vector:.

On Sun, 21 July 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote

Hum . . .

THAILAND sez: Get The Hell Out!

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:23jmCnJPXNcC:www.bangkokpost.net/110502_News/11May2002_news06.html+tham+krabok+thailand&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I wonder if this will actually happen; possibly not,
since it has been in
the perpetual process of happening since roughly the
dawn of time, or 40
years ago when a few hundred hmoung arrived and
started to reproduce a lot
— having not much else to do besides learn
cultivation techniques for
preTty PopPies in southern Thailand, and that birth
control thing not
having made a major inroads into the whole entire
southeast Asia — which
by the way, prolly causes MOST of the AIDS splattered
all over those
countries, NOT bangin’ up, condoms not birth control
pills I meant to
say, I think, yeah that was it …  Where was I, oh
yes, still in Miami,
but as I was saying, the army rolls in, LOOKS AROUND
a lot, makes a Stern
Announcement in the Bangkok Post that SOME Sort of
Severe Action will take
place, real soon now; and then goes back to sleep.
Since, mostly, they
all arrived in this mountain range ‘cuz there’s an
ashram there, and it’d
be Bad Karma to nuke an ashram in Thailand; although
it might be okay if
it were located in Utah instead for instance.  Now
then, as I was saying
Will the BAD PEOPLE destroy a perfect, beautiful,
happy little society for
tHe HeadLines, or will the whole entire Hmoung make
their saving throw,
thus avoiding CERTAIN DOOM!?!??!?

Who can say.  But I just felt strongly ALL OF YOU
should be aware of this.

It’s a bummer all of them are so fixated on Buddha,
if they looked up a
lil’ further, they’d find Shiva, who would just
DESTROY the whole entire
situation (inside his mind) and they could get back
to resonating, bangin’
up’, or buying shiny things, depending on what
vibrational range they were
in at that particular time.  They’re very mellow and
accepting there,
which I appreciated a lot, I have never met any group
of persons who were
so cheerfully corrupt before, it was neat, and made
me feel good about
myself, because everything was always all-good,
unlike Mexico, which is
mostly not so cheerfully corrupt, it experiences a
lot of guilt about all
that and HIDES the drugs inside Jesus statues and
religious altars and
things, but still firmly believes that chiva negra is
one of the Two Great
Demons (the other being blanco of course, most
especially when you SMOKE
the demon, much like crack, only non-culture
centric…  Belize is very
professional in its corruption, it’s shiny and glossy
and Right Out There,
whereas the Caribbean is more like Thailand, it’s
mellow and accepting and
easy-going mon, which I s’pose is not surprising.
America as whole is
completely inconsistent, and vibrations vary widely,
sometimes even from
block to block, or time of day and phase of moon,
when it is possible to
absolutely resonate with your molecules and radiate
within and through
them, while at others no matter what you do, you seem
to wind up in these
spirals made out of barbed wire which is shredding
you as you sink through
bleeding quicksand, hmm, oh yeah, duh, i forgot to Go
into The Light.  But
I suppose that is just the Way of the World.  That is
my opinion at this
very moment anyway, but it could change at any time.

Mostly, as a whole, this is THAILAND’s fault and the
Hmoung cannot be held
responsible for the whole entire situation.  Since
the laws there change
every 3 hours or so, depending on how moody the King
is feeling that day,
and the only part of the laws that ever remains
consistent is that it is
okay for them to cultivate opium poppies and USE
them, because that is
their cultural heritage, but they’re never, ever, at
all, not even
supposed to THINK ABOUT breaking it down into heroin
and exporting it.
That would be Very Naughty.

That’s it then,

Patrick

___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: July 21, 2002 at 5:30:22 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Cc: actupny@panix.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hum . . .

THAILAND sez: Get The Hell Out!

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:23jmCnJPXNcC:www.bangkokpost.net/110502_News/11May2002_news06.html+tham+krabok+thailand&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I wonder if this will actually happen; possibly not, since it has been in
the perpetual process of happening since roughly the dawn of time, or 40
years ago when a few hundred hmoung arrived and started to reproduce a lot
— having not much else to do besides learn cultivation techniques for
preTty PopPies in southern Thailand, and that birth control thing not
having made a major inroads into the whole entire southeast Asia — which
by the way, prolly causes MOST of the AIDS splattered all over those
countries, NOT bangin’ up, condoms not birth control pills I meant to
say, I think, yeah that was it …  Where was I, oh yes, still in Miami,
but as I was saying, the army rolls in, LOOKS AROUND a lot, makes a Stern
Announcement in the Bangkok Post that SOME Sort of Severe Action will take
place, real soon now; and then goes back to sleep.  Since, mostly, they
all arrived in this mountain range ‘cuz there’s an ashram there, and it’d
be Bad Karma to nuke an ashram in Thailand; although it might be okay if
it were located in Utah instead for instance.  Now then, as I was saying
Will the BAD PEOPLE destroy a perfect, beautiful, happy little society for
tHe HeadLines, or will the whole entire Hmoung make their saving throw,
thus avoiding CERTAIN DOOM!?!??!?

Who can say.  But I just felt strongly ALL OF YOU should be aware of this.

It’s a bummer all of them are so fixated on Buddha, if they looked up a
lil’ further, they’d find Shiva, who would just DESTROY the whole entire
situation (inside his mind) and they could get back to resonating, bangin’
up’, or buying shiny things, depending on what vibrational range they were
in at that particular time.  They’re very mellow and accepting there,
which I appreciated a lot, I have never met any group of persons who were
so cheerfully corrupt before, it was neat, and made me feel good about
myself, because everything was always all-good, unlike Mexico, which is
mostly not so cheerfully corrupt, it experiences a lot of guilt about all
that and HIDES the drugs inside Jesus statues and religious altars and
things, but still firmly believes that chiva negra is one of the Two Great
Demons (the other being blanco of course, most especially when you SMOKE
the demon, much like crack, only non-culture centric…  Belize is very
professional in its corruption, it’s shiny and glossy and Right Out There,
whereas the Caribbean is more like Thailand, it’s mellow and accepting and
easy-going mon, which I s’pose is not surprising.  America as whole is
completely inconsistent, and vibrations vary widely, sometimes even from
block to block, or time of day and phase of moon, when it is possible to
absolutely resonate with your molecules and radiate within and through
them, while at others no matter what you do, you seem to wind up in these
spirals made out of barbed wire which is shredding you as you sink through
bleeding quicksand, hmm, oh yeah, duh, i forgot to Go into The Light.  But
I suppose that is just the Way of the World.  That is my opinion at this
very moment anyway, but it could change at any time.

Mostly, as a whole, this is THAILAND’s fault and the Hmoung cannot be held
responsible for the whole entire situation.  Since the laws there change
every 3 hours or so, depending on how moody the King is feeling that day,
and the only part of the laws that ever remains consistent is that it is
okay for them to cultivate opium poppies and USE them, because that is
their cultural heritage, but they’re never, ever, at all, not even
supposed to THINK ABOUT breaking it down into heroin and exporting it.
That would be Very Naughty.

That’s it then,

Patrick

From: <nruhtra@dsskcorp.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] iboga on usenet
Date: July 20, 2002 at 11:46:52 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

being that google has archived like the
past 25 years of usenet postings, they
have a page of a bunch of “firsts” – like
the first mention of  microshaft, mtv and
even the first “me too” post.

well check this out for all you frizneaks – the first iboga mentioning –

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=iboga&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&scoring=d&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1989&selm=3544%40midway.cs.glasgow.ac.uk&rnum=1

boom for real

– nruhtra

ps – _kinda_ as of late there has been
some talk of ibogaine in the newsgroups.
not many people are informed and know
of its true powers.  i post about it every
once in a while but i was thinking you
fooliozz should check it out. get the
word out and shiz  –
alt.drugs — alt.drugs.psychedelics

peace

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] C.R.A.C.K
Date: July 20, 2002 at 10:54:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Barbara Harris
Children Requiring A Caring Kommunity’s
“Project Prevention”
P.O. Box 74
Stanton, CA 90680

Dear Ms. Harris:

We are writing to express our strong objections to your distribution of
highly misleading and completely inaccurate information regarding pregnant
women and methadone treatment. In a letter date February 22, 2002, you state,
in part:

“We are currently working with several methadone clinics that make our offer
known, and available, to the women and men who come through their program.
I’m sure one thing most can agree on is that it is important for those using
methadone or other drugs to refrain from getting pregnant.”

We most certainly do not agree. Your statement, suggesting that it is
dangerous for a woman who is receiving clinically prescribed methadone
treatment to become pregnant, is simply wrong. Methadone is a highly
effective treatment for all opiate dependent patients and, most specifically,
for women – both before and after they may become pregnant. In fact, methadone
treatment during pregnancy has not been associated with congenital
abnormalities or fetal demise. In those cases where neonatal withdrawal
symptoms occur (and they frequently do not), these symptoms can be treated
readily, with no evidence of any adverse impact on physical or cognitive
development. In short, there is simply no medical basis for your suggestion
that methadone patients should “refrain from getting pregnant.”

For over 30 years, in countries throughout the world, methadone maintenance
treatment (MMT) has been shown to substantially reduce illegal opiate use and
the crime, illness, suffering, and death with which it is associated. The
benefits have been shown to accrue, not only to the individual patient, but
to his/her family and the community, as well. The most credible and objective
governmental and non-governmental organizations in America and abroad have
recognized these positive results with MMT. For example, the US Department of
Health and Human Services joins the scientific community in recognizing that
MMT greatly benefits the patients as well as the general community. It is
specifically recommended for pregnant and breast-feeding patients, which
further demonstrates the strong medical consensus supporting methadone
treatment, both in general and during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, despite methadone treatment’s many benefits, it is available
to fewer than 20% of the people who most need it. Women, in particular, face
numerous barriers to obtaining this important medical intervention. Your
letter and activities, which spread false information and stigmatize current
and future mothers who receive this treatment, will make it even more
difficult for women who need methadone treatment to receive it.

We therefore urge you to withdraw this letter immediately and to advise each
of those individuals and clinics who received it that it was based on
misinformation. Furthermore, it is essential that you publicly repudiate the
inaccurate message you conveyed on your organization’s website and in other
public and media context. Not to do so would be irresponsible and a great
disservice to those whose interests you claim to have at heart.

Signed,

Signatories

1. Lynn Singer, Ph.D, Professor of Pediatrics and Psychiatry, Case Western
Reserve University, School of Medicine
2. Stephen Kandall, MD, Retired Professor of Pediatrics, Albert Einstein
College of Medicine
3. Daniel Neuspiel, MD, MPH, Associate Chairman of Pediatrics, Beth Israel
Medical Center
4. Robert Newman, MD, Director, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical
Dependency Institute of Beth Israel Medical Center
5. Barry Lester, Ph.D., Director, Infant Development Center, Women and
Infants&#8217; Hospital
6. Mary Faith Marshall, Ph.D., Professor of Medicine and Bioethics, Kansas
University Medical Center
7. Maryann Amodeo, Ph.D., Professor, Boston University School of Social Work,
Alcohol and Drug Institute for Policy, Research and Training
8. Denise Paone, Ph.D., Evaluation and Training Consultant, Former Assistant
Director of Research, Chemical Dependency Institute, Beth Israel Medical
Center
9. John J. Botti, MD, Director, Maternal Fetal Medicine, Penn State Hershey
Medical Center
10. Mary Mahowald, Ph.D., Professor, Dept. of OB/GYN, University of Chicago
11. Machelle Allen, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of OB/GYN, NYU School
of Medicine
12. Wendy Chavkin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of Public Health and OB/GYN,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health
13. Marjorie Greenfield MD, Associate Professor of OB/GYN, University
Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
14. Hytham Imseis, MD, Mountain Area Health Education Center, Dept. of OB/GYN
15. Dona Upson, MD, Associate Professor of Medicine, University of New Mexico
16. Mack Lipkin, Jr., MD, Director of Primary Care, NYU School of Medicine
17. Ernest Drucker, Ph.D., Professor of Epidemiology and Social Medicine,
Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein School of Medicine
18. Angela R. Holder, LLM, Professor of the Practice of Medical Ethics,
Center for the Study of Medical Ethics and Humanities, Duke University
Medical Center
19. Sydney L. Hans, Ph.D., Research Associate Professor, Department of
Psychiatry, University of Chicago
20. Craig Reinarman, Ph.D., Chair and Professor, Dept. of Sociology, UC Santa
Cruz
21. Rachel Roth, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Washington University
22. Monica J. Casper, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Sociology, UC Santa Cruz
23. Anthony R. Kovner, Ph.D., Professor of Health Policy and Management,
Wagner/NYU
24. Susan L. Adams, Ph.D., RN, Associate Professor of Nursing, Women&#8217;s
Health Nurse Practitioner, Perinatal Addiction, Dominican University of
California
25. Nina Peskoe Peyser, Former Executive Director of the Chemical Dependency
Institute at Beth Israel Medical Center
26. Holly Catania, Baron Edmond de Rothschild Chemical Dependency Institute
of Beth Israel Medical Center
27. Nancy D. Campbell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Rensselaer Polytechnic
Institute
28. Jerome Richardson, Assistant Professor, University of Illinois at Chicago
29. Karyn L. Pomerantz, MLS, MPH, GW School of Public Health & Health
Services
30. Janet Lynne Golden, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University
31. Cynthia Daniels, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Rutgers University
32. Drew Humphries, Ph.D., Department of Sociology, Anthropology and Criminal
Justice,
Rutgers University
33. Elizabeth M. Armstong, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, Princeton University
34. Jael Silliman, Ed.D., Associate Professor, University of Iowa
35. Jeanne Flavin, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Fordham University
36. Victor J. Bernstein, Ph.D., Associate Professor, University of Chicago
37. Grace Chang, Ph.D., Evergreen State College
38. Mario A. Caro, Ph.D. Candidate, Professor, Evergreen State College
39. Phillip Coffin, MIA, Project Director, Center for Urban Epidemiologic
Studies, New York Academy of Medicine
40. Sheigla Murphy, Ph.D., Institute for Scientific Analysis
41. Leslie D. McCrory, Clinical Supervisor, Health Partners
42. Ann D. Brown, CNM, MSN, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education
Center
43. Shelley Galvin, MA, Research & Grants Coordinator, Dept. of OB/GYN,
Mountain Area Health Education Center
44. Susan Shinn, RNC, Women&#8217;s Health, Mountain Area Health Education
Center
45. Melissa McClure, Medical Records Coordinator, Mountain Area Perinatal
Substance Abuse Program
46. Cheryl Timbs, Clinical Supervisor, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance
Abuse Program
47. Elizabeth Finger, LWW, Director of Behavior Medicine, Mountain Area
Health Education Center
48. Terry Sutton, Program Assistant, Mountain Area Health Education Center
49. Jean Cassidy, Dept. of OB/GYN, Mountain Area Health Education Center
50. Steve Allison, Certified Clinical Addiction Specialist, Mountain Area
Health Education Center
51. Gregory McCoy, Mountain Area Perinatal Substance Abuse Program
52. Michael Eisenberg, MD, MPH, President, ASPIRE
53. Luciano Colonna, Executive Director, Harm Reduction Project
54. Michael R. Aldrich, Ph.D
55. Ivan Zimmerman, J.D.
56. Rickie Solinger, Ph.D., Historian
57. National Women’s Health Network
58. National Black Women&#8217;s Health Project
59. National Association for Public Health Policy Council on Illicit Drugs
60. Institute for Health and Recovery
61. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM)
62. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of Arkansas & Oklahoma
63. Advocates for Recovery through Medicine (ARM) of DC
64. Connecticut Women&#8217;s Consortium
65. Casa Segura
66. Lower East Side Harm Reduction Center
67. Addiction Treatment Watchdog
68. CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic
69. Virginia Alliance of Methadone Advocates
70. Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
71. San Francisco AIDS Foundation HIV Prevention Project
72. AIDS Project New Haven
73. HIV Law Project
74. ASPIRE
75. Drug Policy Alliance
76. Urban Justice Center
77. Criminal Justice Policy Institute
78. Center for Human Rights Education
79. Family Watch
80. Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
81. Cambridge Cares About AIDS
82. California Coalition for Women Prisoners
83. Legal Services for Prisoners With Children
84. NORML Foundation
85. Common Sense for Drug Policy
86. Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii
87. ReconsiDer
88. Communities Against Rape and Abuse
89. Mikki Norris, Human Rights and the Drug War
90. Alice Diorio, President, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
91. Kevin Zeese, Executive Director, Common Sense for Drug Policy
92. Donna M. Shea, Legal Director, NORML
93. Mark Beresky, Secretary/Treasurer, Vermont Harm Reduction Coalition
94. Marc Shinderman, MD, CAP Quality Care Methadone Clinic
95. Cassie Pierson, Staff Attorney, Legal Services for Prisoners with
Children
96. Monique Tula, Director of Harm Reduction Services, Cambridge Cares About
AIDS
97. Eliza Wheeler, Needle Exchange Program Coordinator, Cambridge Cares About
AIDS
98. Robin Clark-Smith, AIDS Program, Bridgeport Health Department
99. Terri Bogage, Institute for Health and Recovery
100. Syd Lindsley, Committee on Women, Population, and the Environment
101. Jacqueline Robarge, Power Inside
102. Stephanie Manfre, Children&#8217;s Case Manager, Riley Center
103. Ann Beck, Riley Center
104. Jennifer Grant, Director, Riley Center
105. Teresa Martyny, Riley Center
106. Kylie Chow, Brennan House
107. JoAnn Yang, Riley Center
108. Michelle Rivera, Riley Center
109. Carolina Alaniz, Riley Center
110. Idoia Irastorza, Riley Center
111. Megan Koroshetz, Riley Center
112. Stacy Benedict, Riley Center
113. Liliana Diaz, San Francisco Department of Public Health
114. Ellenie Tuazon, San Francisco Department of Public Health
115. Elba Warner, San Francisco Department of Public Health
116. Ebone Colbert, Communities Against Rape and Abuse
117. Theryn Kigvamasud&#8217;Vashti, Communities Against Rape and Abuse
118. Alisa Bierria, Program Coordinator, Communities Against Rape and Abuse
119. Shane Felles
120. Brion Roberts
121. Susan Yanow, Director, Abortion Access Project
122. Shiela VanDerveer, Development Director, NARAL &#8211; NH
123. NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund
124. Marsha Rosenbaum, Ph.D., Director, Safety First Project, Drug Policy
Alliance
125. Ann M. Boyer, MD, MS, Mt. Sinai Medical Center
126. Nancy Mamis-King, Associate Executive Director, Neighborhood Youth &
Family Services
127. Maureen Denman, Atlantic Health System
128. Shelly Carter, Health Educator, New Mexico Prenatal Care Network,
University of New Mexico
129. National Council on Alcoholism & Drug Dependence
130. Gloria Knighton
131. Virginia Nurses Society on Addictions
132. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
133. National Advocates for Pregnant Women

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid
Date: July 20, 2002 at 6:59:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Paranoia and speed… Hey… That explains it.  Talking about myelf.  Actually that was Ephedrine… is that speed?  I lived on that stuff for like 3 years.

btw, i’m working on a skull signature, the people on vox seem reluctant to help. anyone here feel like helping me out with my skull?  Oh, and last night was rough.  Had the restless leg syndrome operating in high gear.. RLS… anyone here ever get that?  you feel like you have to move constantly.  Even if you’re dead tired, you just have to move move move.

In a message dated 7/20/2002 9:53:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

He became addicted to amphetamines, which lifted his depression but deepened his paranoia.

NEUROSKULL, MINISTER OF DISINFORMATION: FIRST CHURCH OF MINDVOX ESCORT AGENCY
_,.——-.,_
,;-‘                    ‘-;,
,;                            ;,
,;                                  ;,
; ;          .           .         ; ;
| ;   ___          ____      ; |
|  `/~”    ~” . “~    “~    \’  |
|  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-, ~|
|  |              }:{             |  |
|  |              / | \             |  |
.   (__,.– ” .^. “–.,___)  .
|          —;’ / | \ `;—     |  .
\__.          \/^\/       .__/
| \                         / |
| | ~\___|___|___/~ | |
| |     `[][][][][][][] | |
|  \,     [][][][][][] /  |
\   `~~~~~~~~~~’  /
\        .       .      /
^~~~^~~~^
This skull just doesn’t look right… i want a cool looking skull for my permanent signature…

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] not paranoid–synchronistic.
Date: July 20, 2002 at 6:34:43 PM EDT
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: MagickMirr@aol.com, dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, JhanDavis@aol.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

EDITORIAL OBSERVER
This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid
By BRENT STAPLES

The distance between the world we live in and the world depicted in
science fiction has narrowed dramatically in recent years. Novels
that once seemed futuristic because they featured pocket computers,
palm-sized phones and genetically enhanced people have become dated –
artifacts from a recent past. Minuscule by tradition, the science
fiction market has contracted further, making it even more difficult
for writers to find an audience.

The most dramatic exception is Philip K. Dick, a wildly original,
amphetamine-addled genius who was married five times and found time
to write 36 novels and 130 short stories in a 30-year career that,
despite his productivity, kept him nearly broke for most of his life.
Twenty years after his death, Mr. Dick has gained literary
respectability and is one of the hottest properties in Hollywood.

Mr. Dick’s books and stories were mainly out of print and seemed
destined for oblivion when he died in 1982. Now his short stories
have been collected in a five-volume set published by Citadel Press
that shows the evolution of his ideas. Vintage Books is embarked on a
mammoth effort that will bring more than 30 of his books into print,
slickly packaged to appeal to readers who would never be caught dead
with an old-fashioned pulp novel.

Mr. Dick’s fortunes began to change just after his death when one of
his more popular books appeared as the cult film “Blade Runner,” a
classically Dickian tale of a cold-blooded police state that enslaves
man-made human beings – called “replicants” – and murders them when
they attempt to go free. Since “Blade Runner,” Mr. Dick’s work has
been the basis of five movies, with three others in development.

His writing stands apart from much of science fiction because it is
driven more by characters and ideas than by technology. His best work
recalls the intellectual puzzles of Jorge Luis Borges, particularly
“The Circular Ruins,” in which Borges’s central character discovers
that he is a figment of someone’s imagination.

The engine that makes Mr. Dick’s stories go is a pervasive and finely
articulated paranoia about government, technology, personal
relationships – and the nature of reality itself. His books are often
based on the eerie premise that workaday reality is actually a
projection, produced by drug-induced hallucinations or manipulated by
omnipresent and sinister powers-that-be. It’s a generous,
all-encompassing paranoia for a post-“X-Files” America in which
institutions like the C.I.A. and F.B.I. seem too inept to oppose the
kind of threat we feel around us. In Philip Dick’s world, reality
itself can be the culprit, and his current popularity suggests a
willingness by readers to embrace the premise that nothing is ever
what it seems to be – and that free will matters little as we make
our way through life.

Mr. Dick’s paranoid style is displayed quite nicely in the two films
based on his work that were released this year. In “Minority Report,”
Tom Cruise plays a cop who works for a crooked “precrime” bureau that
uses clairvoyants to anticipate murders, then arrests the would-be
criminals before they commit them. The movie ends with the guilty
fingered and the innocent exonerated, and everyone living happily
ever after. In the Dick story, however, the corrupt precrime
enterprise grinds on and on with its wrongs undetected.

Hollywood is crazy for Mr. Dick’s plots, but much less fond of his
bleak conclusions. The most faithful film rendering of a Dick story
to date, which also appeared this year, is “Impostor,” which stars
Gary Sinise as a government scientist who is charged with being an
alien, replicant suicide bomber who has killed the real scientist and
taken his place. The good doctor is firmly convinced of his innocence
until reality undergoes a violent, Dickian shift, and the world comes
apart. The studio is said to have been quite upset about the dark
ending.

Philip K. Dick came by his paranoia and suspicion quite naturally.
His parents were an unhappy, mismatched couple who somehow allowed
his twin sister, Jane, to starve to death shortly after birth. Baby
Philip would clearly have followed suit had not a visiting doctor
rescued him at the last minute. The constant references to doubles in
Mr. Dick’s stories flow from his self-confessed fixation on his
missing twin, who wasted away in a “normal” middle-class home where
neither parent seemed to notice that something was terribly wrong
with the children.

The soulless androids that populate many of his stories are the
fictional replicants of his distant, government-issue parents – a
disengaged mother and a germ-phobic father whose fear of disease kept
young Philip imprisoned in his crib at a time when most small
children are crawling and learning to walk.

A bizarre childhood produced a peculiar adult. Mr. Dick suffered
depression and agoraphobia, a fear of public places. He became
addicted to amphetamines, which lifted his depression but deepened
his paranoia. Stoked up on drugs, he would write for days on end,
projecting his phobias and fixations onto paper.

The deepening interest in Mr. Dick makes it inevitable that there
will be a movie about his life – pitchmen are probably describing it
as “A Beautiful Mind on Speed.” He expected posthumous fame and was
suspicious of it. In one of his novels a character named Philip Dick
is imprisoned by a sinister government agency and told that his books
will be written and published under his name even in the event of his
death. Philip K. Dick craved literary recognition. But had fame
arrived in his lifetime, one gets the feeling that he would have seen
it, as he saw just about everything, as part of some sinister plot.

Forum: Join a Discussion on Today’s Editorials

So what do you think of that Stock Market? Are we re-living 1930, or
what? Gotta turn this Staples fella onto  VALIS, TRANSMIGRATION OF
TIMOTHY ARCHER– and the IBOGAINE STORY.

Dana/cnw

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Heroin Epidemic Fuels World AIDS Crisis
Date: July 20, 2002 at 5:23:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Anyone have Bill Clinton’s email?

Dana/cnw

Pubdate: Fri, 12 Jul 2002
Source: Honolulu Star-Bulletin (HI)
Copyright: 2002 Honolulu Star-Bulletin
Contact: letters@starbulletin.com
Website: http://www.starbulletin.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/196
Author: Sabin Russell
Note: Sabin Russell is the Medical Writer for the San Francisco Chronicle
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/heroin.htm (Heroin)

GLOBAL HEROIN USE FUELS AIDS EPIDEMIC

BARCELONA, Spain — From the jungles of southeast Asia to the streets of
Moscow, the AIDS virus is riding on the back of a global heroin epidemic
and taking root among the most populous nations on Earth.

The link between HIV infection and injection drug use was one of the
earliest discoveries of the epidemic. But it is only recently that disease
trackers have detected signs of a rapidly spreading drug-related outbreak
in Eastern Europe and Asia that threatens to reach into the general population.

“Central Asia is a bomb waiting to explode,” said Kasia
Malinowska-Sempruch, a native of Poland who directs a drug-related AIDS
program for the Open Society Institute, which urges that the world adopt
“harm reduction” tactics such as needle exchange programs that are credited
with rolling back an outbreak of HIV among drug users in San Francisco.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1304.a12.html

——————————

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid
Date: July 20, 2002 at 3:19:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/20/02 12:52:51 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

on=top

July 19, 2002
This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid
By BRENT STAPLES

he distance between the world we live in and the world depicted in
science fiction has narrowed dramatically in recent years. Novels that
once seemed futuristic because they featured pocket computers, palm-sized
phones and genetically enhanced people have become dated — artifacts from
a recent past. Minuscule by tradition, the science fiction market has
contracted
further, making it even more difficult for writers to find an audience.

The most dramatic exception is Philip K. Dick, a wildly original,
amphetamine-addled genius who was married five times and found time to
write 36 novels and 130 short stories in a 30-year career that, despite
his productivity, kept him nearly broke for most of his life. Twenty years
after his death, Mr. Dick has gained literary respectability and is one
of the hottest properties in Hollywood.

Mr. Dick’s books and stories were mainly out of print and seemed
destined for oblivion when he died in 1982. Now his short stories have
been collected in a five-volume set published by Citadel Press that shows
the evolution of his ideas. Vintage Books is embarked on a mammoth effort
that will bring more than 30 of his books into print, slickly packaged
to appeal to readers who would never be caught dead with an old-fashioned
pulp novel.

Mr. Dick’s fortunes began to change just after his death when one
of his more popular books appeared as the cult film “Blade Runner,” a
classically
Dickian tale of a cold-blooded police state that enslaves man-made human
beings — called “replicants” — and murders them when they attempt to go
free. Since “Blade Runner,” Mr. Dick’s work has been the basis of five
movies, with three others in development.

Hi Preston,

The following article came through on another list.

http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,754973,00.html

Howard

From: “paul harvey” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] this generation needs a vast active living information system
Date: July 20, 2002 at 2:34:45 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Everyone gets accepted into the academy eventually, even Burroughs in his old age proudly wore his button badge of acceptance on his lapel.
Hollywood likes Philip K Dick because he is dead, plain and simple. They can appropriate,distort and fuck with his message to its hearts
content.(check out PKD ‘s description of his treatment by Hollywood
over Bladerunner)

The one set of his books they will never turn into a screenplay is the VALIS trilogy.(imagine: Tom Hanks as the intrepid Bishop Pike and introducing Maddona’s brat Lourdes as the kid saviour St.Sophia 😉 )

However, you don’t need to wait to see if they do finally manage it,
all you have to do is take ibogaine and watch VALIS unfold all around you in real time.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid
Date: July 20, 2002 at 12:43:40 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Sean McBride
To: cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 9:01 PM
Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid


July 19, 2002
This Generation Needs a Paranoid’s Paranoid
By BRENT STAPLES

he distance between the world we live in and the world depicted in science fiction has narrowed dramatically in recent years. Novels that once seemed futuristic because they featured pocket computers, palm-sized phones and genetically enhanced people have become dated — artifacts from a recent past. Minuscule by tradition, the science fiction market has contracted further, making it even more difficult for writers to find an audience.
The most dramatic exception is Philip K. Dick, a wildly original, amphetamine-addled genius who was married five times and found time to write 36 novels and 130 short stories in a 30-year career that, despite his productivity, kept him nearly broke for most of his life. Twenty years after his death, Mr. Dick has gained literary respectability and is one of the hottest properties in Hollywood.
Mr. Dick’s books and stories were mainly out of print and seemed destined for oblivion when he died in 1982. Now his short stories have been collected in a five-volume set published by Citadel Press that shows the evolution of his ideas. Vintage Books is embarked on a mammoth effort that will bring more than 30 of his books into print, slickly packaged to appeal to readers who would never be caught dead with an old-fashioned pulp novel.
Mr. Dick’s fortunes began to change just after his death when one of his more popular books appeared as the cult film “Blade Runner,” a classically Dickian tale of a cold-blooded police state that enslaves man-made human beings — called “replicants” — and murders them when they attempt to go free. Since “Blade Runner,” Mr. Dick’s work has been the basis of five movies, with three others in development.
His writing stands apart from much of science fiction because it is driven more by characters and ideas than by technology. His best work recalls the intellectual puzzles of Jorge Luis Borges, particularly “The Circular Ruins,” in which Borges’s central character discovers that he is a figment of someone’s imagination.
The engine that makes Mr. Dick’s stories go is a pervasive and finely articulated paranoia about government, technology, personal relationships — and the nature of reality itself. His books are often based on the eerie premise that workaday reality is actually a projection, produced by drug-induced hallucinations or manipulated by omnipresent and sinister powers-that-be. It’s a generous, all-encompassing paranoia for a post-“X-Files” America in which institutions like the C.I.A. and F.B.I. seem too inept to oppose the kind of threat we feel around us. In Philip Dick’s world, reality itself can be the culprit, and his current popularity suggests a willingness by readers to embrace the premise that nothing is ever what it seems to be — and that free will matters little as we make our way through life.
Mr. Dick’s paranoid style is displayed quite nicely in the two films based on his work that were released this year. In “Minority Report,” Tom Cruise plays a cop who works for a crooked “precrime” bureau that uses clairvoyants to anticipate murders, then arrests the would-be criminals before they commit them. The movie ends with the guilty fingered and the innocent exonerated, and everyone living happily ever after. In the Dick story, however, the corrupt precrime enterprise grinds on and on with its wrongs undetected.
Hollywood is crazy for Mr. Dick’s plots, but much less fond of his bleak conclusions. The most faithful film rendering of a Dick story to date, which also appeared this year, is “Impostor,” which stars Gary Sinise as a government scientist who is charged with being an alien, replicant suicide bomber who has killed the real scientist and taken his place. The good doctor is firmly convinced of his innocence until reality undergoes a violent, Dickian shift, and the world comes apart. The studio is said to have been quite upset about the dark ending.
Philip K. Dick came by his paranoia and suspicion quite naturally. His parents were an unhappy, mismatched couple who somehow allowed his twin sister, Jane, to starve to death shortly after birth. Baby Philip would clearly have followed suit had not a visiting doctor rescued him at the last minute. The constant references to doubles in Mr. Dick’s stories flow from his self-confessed fixation on his missing twin, who wasted away in a “normal” middle-class home where neither parent seemed to notice that something was terribly wrong with the children.
The soulless androids that populate many of his stories are the fictional replicants of his distant, government-issue parents — a disengaged mother and a germ-phobic father whose fear of disease kept young Philip imprisoned in his crib at a time when most small children are crawling and learning to walk.
A bizarre childhood produced a peculiar adult. Mr. Dick suffered depression and agoraphobia, a fear of public places. He became addicted to amphetamines, which lifted his depression but deepened his paranoia. Stoked up on drugs, he would write for days on end, projecting his phobias and fixations onto paper.
The deepening interest in Mr. Dick makes it inevitable that there will be a movie about his life — pitchmen are probably describing it as “A Beautiful Mind on Speed.” He expected posthumous fame and was suspicious of it. In one of his novels a character named Philip Dick is imprisoned by a sinister government agency and told that his books will be written and published under his name even in the event of his death. Philip K. Dick craved literary recognition. But had fame arrived in his lifetime, one gets the feeling that he would have seen it, as he saw just about everything, as part of some sinister plot.

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] toxicological management of ibogaine
Date: July 20, 2002 at 11:22:54 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/20/02 11:19:35 AM, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:YwCuPtjziowC:www.micromedex.com/products
/

poisindex/updates/iboga.pdf+ibogaine+platelets&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Forwhaterverreason, the address above was split into separate lines.  That
was not correct.

It is a single url

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:YwCuPtjziowC:www.micromedex.com/products/

poisindex/updates/iboga.pdf+ibogaine+platelets&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Hope it works this time.

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] toxicological management of ibogaine
Date: July 20, 2002 at 11:19:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A recent google.com search found this review of toxicological management of
ibogaine.

Howard

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:YwCuPtjziowC:www.micromedex.com/products/

poisindex/updates/iboga.pdf+ibogaine+platelets&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Newbie Questions
Date: July 20, 2002 at 12:50:10 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Karina, congratulaitions 🙂

Carla B

— Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com> wrote:
Congrats, Karina, you brave woman!  HOpe you’re
feeling great soon.  Jane

———————————
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Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes

__________________________________________________
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http://health.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Newbie Questions
Date: July 19, 2002 at 8:17:29 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Congrats, Karina, you brave woman!  HOpe you’re feeling great soon.  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] SMART link
Date: July 19, 2002 at 9:39:16 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yer welcome.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rebecca Silverman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:56 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] SMART link

Preston thank you, it’s

Self-Help Addiction Recovery – SMART Recovery 4-Point Program – Alternative to AA

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “D B” <facobly@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] BWITI PICTURES
Date: July 19, 2002 at 5:39:53 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If one is interested with pictures of the Bwiti in Gabon one can visit :
http://fotosynthese.com/02_fr/03_iboga/base/1_bwitiiboga/index.html

Affichez, modifiez et partagez gratuitement vos photos en ligne: Cliquez ici.

From: Richard Lake <rlake@mapinc.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: wsj article
Date: July 18, 2002 at 10:52:53 PM EDT
To: Richard Lake <rlake@mapinc.org>
Cc: HSL123@aol.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, “Dave Michon” <dajalyn@charter.net>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Woops, just found that this had not gone out from my computer Monday evening, for some reason I am getting a bad address response from Dana’s address, so if someone could fwd it, thanks!

Hi, Dana and Friends

It got into the MAP archives at about 6:30 p.m. Pacific today, Monday and is at http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1322/a06.html

But thanks much anyway for the heads up.

To newshawk WSJ articles we have to have a hawk who has paid for the online WSJ subscription.

We have two, but from time to time they miss things so it is good to get a note so I can double check and let them know if one of them didn’t send it in.

I guess this is good news, for ibogaine, at least?

I was a little bothered by some of the other drugs being tested. It is one thing for a person to seek treatment using some drug with a full understanding.

But I worry that some of these drugs could be used against the will of folks in forced treatment, both here in the U.S. and elsewhere around the world where the rights of folks are not respected.

Richard

At 09:42 PM 7/15/02 -0400, Dana Beal wrote:
are you going to run the wsj article on new pharmacotherapies for addiction?

it’s top of the front page,  “b” section.

dana/cnw

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] H2K2
Date: July 18, 2002 at 6:56:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Vector that’s all interesting. And I mean that it is.
I see how it might relate to the war on drugs because
you’re people who are in everybodies computers but why
did you need to send it to every list on mindvox
except the one where the conversation is happening?

Please stop that, I am already signed on to nearly all
the lists here and don’t need to see the same message
4 times.

I don’t understand why all of you are having this hate
session all over the pages of some british magazine
which is reporting on events in NYC which nobody in
the US is covering.

-carrie

— vector6@space.com wrote:
This is excellent.

Go Gweeds!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/26247.html

.:vector:.

On Tue, 16 July 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote

On [Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 01:23:09AM -0700],
[Dennis
Wilen] wrote:

| apparently the biggest asshole ever to work at
mindvox,
| gweeds, made his typical ignorant and
loudmouthed
presence
| known – a crime unique in its flatulence
|
| >>>
|
| Gweeds gets killed
| By Thomas C Greene in Washington
| Posted: 16/07/2002 at 07:30 GMT

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis . . .

Gweeds is simply MISUNDERSTOOD.  He’s a beautiful
person inside, just
filled with pretty things he wants to radiate, and
share with the world.
I can think of no finer person to place in charge
of
the new Welcome
conference, when the planets align and MindVox
re-opens.

Everything Gweeds ever did, was meant with LOVE.
He
just wanted to share;
he needs to be around people — and if at all
possible, small children.
He’s doing GREAT!  Why he hasn’t been under
investigation by ANYONE in
over 3 months, and it’s been WEEKS, *many* long
weeks, since anybody filed
a restraining order against him.

Obviously you just don’t understand.   But please
don’t hurt his feelings,
Gweeds is a sensitive person.  All those minor
problems with his behavior
can be attributed to his parents, drugs; no wait,
he’s not an addict,
nevermind that; but SOCIETY as a WHOLE is at
fault.
Blaming Gweeds for
his own actions, is totally immature.

Thank you,  Love, Light, and God Bless,

Patrick

___________________________________________________________________
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http://www.space.com.

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http://autos.yahoo.com

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] H2K2
Date: July 18, 2002 at 6:39:10 PM EDT
To: drugwar@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is excellent.

Go Gweeds!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/26247.html

.:vector:.

On Tue, 16 July 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote

On [Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 01:23:09AM -0700], [Dennis
Wilen] wrote:

| apparently the biggest asshole ever to work at
mindvox,
| gweeds, made his typical ignorant and loudmouthed
presence
| known – a crime unique in its flatulence
|
| >>>
|
| Gweeds gets killed
| By Thomas C Greene in Washington
| Posted: 16/07/2002 at 07:30 GMT

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis . . .

Gweeds is simply MISUNDERSTOOD.  He’s a beautiful
person inside, just
filled with pretty things he wants to radiate, and
share with the world.
I can think of no finer person to place in charge of
the new Welcome
conference, when the planets align and MindVox
re-opens.

Everything Gweeds ever did, was meant with LOVE.  He
just wanted to share;
he needs to be around people — and if at all
possible, small children.
He’s doing GREAT!  Why he hasn’t been under
investigation by ANYONE in
over 3 months, and it’s been WEEKS, *many* long
weeks, since anybody filed
a restraining order against him.

Obviously you just don’t understand.   But please
don’t hurt his feelings,
Gweeds is a sensitive person.  All those minor
problems with his behavior
can be attributed to his parents, drugs; no wait,
he’s not an addict,
nevermind that; but SOCIETY as a WHOLE is at fault.
Blaming Gweeds for
his own actions, is totally immature.

Thank you,  Love, Light, and God Bless,

Patrick

___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Wake N Bake <wakeandbake02@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [drugwar] Apple ro0lz!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 5:28:32 PM EDT
To: drugwar@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t see the problem. They just needed to give her
a few bottles of visine so her eyes weren’t glowing in
the dark.

WnB

Brilliant ad. If I wasn’t already switched I’d give it
a lot more thought. I enjoyed Steve Jobs comments to
the press too.

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Do not repost this to Other Lists, places, or the
whole entire usenet.
Doing so will just make us take it offline.

This is a cute spot Apple made, which mysteriously
fell out of Akamai when
someone who works at Apple and isn’t baked 24/7,
noticed a Slight Problem
with the whole entire presentation.

It’s really cute tho =)

http://www.mindvox.com/~squirk/switch

This is also neat.  Steve Jobs answering a question
at a press conference
he didn’t particularily feel in the mood to deal
with … so he adjusted
his glasses a lot.

http://dross.mindvox.com/

Patrick

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “paul harvey” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] hcl availability
Date: July 18, 2002 at 4:44:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ive already posted a similar request on the calyx.list so apologies
to anyone who has to read it twice and a thankyou to brett and eric who have taken the trouble to correspond with me.
to get straight to the point,the supplier who i have used in the past for ibogaine hcl is no longer able to do so – so i need to look elsewhere, as do a number of friends who were hoping to get treated soon. (dont worry,we are based in the UK – where a legal window of opportunity still exists to treat people for opiate addiction) – so its not a thought crime to help .
so – can anyone help or at least point us in the right direction of someone willing to provide ibogaine hcl at reasonable prices ( we were paying 」85 per gram but that was an incredibly good rate)
If we had the economic resources then we would be straight on the plane
to a treatment centre in a sunny climate. The reality is we are at the bottom level of the junk pyramid, either on or just off the street.
Its a fucking joke really. a white paper has just been released by our government with no sense of irony, called “justice for all” where anyone arrested for “any” crime who happens to be a heroin/cocaine addict will only be released on bail on condition they receive mandatory treatment.
No agreement to treatment = No bail and no bail equals a grim withdrawal on the concrete floor, so who isn’t going to agree to treatment?. And heres a further irony,if you fuck up your attendance at a day centre or find the drug agencies/rehabilitation centre is not for you, you can then get taken back to court for the original prison sentence to be imposed because you have broken whats termed your “DTTO”
(drug testing and treatment order) – and at what cost ?
In terms of my own addiction to opiates/crack/methadone, it has cost the state a considerable ammount to keep me in between 40-80ml of methadone daily for all those years plus 」4000 to put me into a detox unit for a month plus 」15,000 for a six month stay in rehab where upon leaving I relapsed at the first opportunity.
Contrast that with my first self-administered ibogaine treatment six months ago which for 」85 (of my own money,not the state’s) i came off methadone in two days, not one month of expensive detox and havent touched it since. Yes, i did return to heroin eventually but kicked it myself 8 days ago.Which is why Im seeking retreatment with ibogaine as the cravings are still strong. That i could walk in tomorrow and get prescribed methadone and yet have to jump through hoops to find some ibogaine is so indicative of the fucked up UK drug policy its untrue.
Anyway – if you can help, please email me.

in valis we trust

paul

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: “janine andrews” <janineandrews@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] request for end to mail
Date: July 18, 2002 at 4:09:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please take me off this list.  I’ve already asked twice.  Please take my address off this mailing list now,  I don’t have the space for it.  Thank you
Janine

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Apple ro0lz!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 3:23:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com

Do not repost this to Other Lists, places, or the whole entire usenet.
Doing so will just make us take it offline.

This is a cute spot Apple made, which mysteriously fell out of Akamai when
someone who works at Apple and isn’t baked 24/7, noticed a Slight Problem
with the whole entire presentation.

It’s really cute tho =)

http://www.mindvox.com/~squirk/switch

This is also neat.  Steve Jobs answering a question at a press conference
he didn’t particularily feel in the mood to deal with … so he adjusted
his glasses a lot.

http://dross.mindvox.com/

Patrick

From: “Evan D. Baer” <evan@wiretap.com>
Subject: Re: [voxadm] Re: Stoned or not ? (fwd)
Date: July 18, 2002 at 10:28:20 AM EDT
To: voxadm@mindvox.com
Reply-To: voxadm@mindvox.com

they shouldn’t have pulled it – showing cute stoned girls with macs is a
bright spot in the latest ad campaign.

i like the ‘ba-de-po-de-pa-do” sound effect she makes when she talks about
the lost paper.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Steve Quirk (squirk@ieee.org) wrote:

Seems apple pulled this ad after it became apparant that there’s a massive
amount of underage drug taking involved (or so it seems).

Using my mad skillz (ok, I just looked inside the movie for the source
reference), I pulled the movie from akamai and stored it on mindvox.

http://www.mindvox.com/~squirk/switch

– sq

From: Hal5943@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Newbie Questions
Date: July 18, 2002 at 2:13:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That is what I have been trying to be like Karina like myself 5 years on90 Mg. Methadone it ws easier to cold turkey heroin

From: Hal5943@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Now I know who is Misinformed (ME)
Date: July 18, 2002 at 2:10:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It looks like I was searching the wrong place for the right answers Thanks.
I have learned lots of useless information for myself to keep in mind

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro! Misinformed
Date: July 18, 2002 at 11:00:24 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hal5943@aol.com

Who are you misinformed people.

What is it you think we are misinformed about? Maybe
you could enlighten us,

I am looking for a
way to ibogaine myself
into myself once again as I was about ten years ago
before those nasty drugs.

OK, how about a little more info, like who you are,
what kinds of “nasty drugs” you take/are addicted to,
your health (any health issues, HEP C, heart problems,
HIV, Other???).  How were you looking to ibogaine
yourself??? Do you know anything about ibogaine, did
you go to ibogaine.org and read the info and follow
the links to other sites??? At ibogaine.co.uk there
are is a list of treatment options.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugnews] !!! ADDICTION: Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs
Date: July 18, 2002 at 10:15:15 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t have a link – perhaps contact Peter Webster vignes@monaco.mc at
drugnews, or better, contact the sender Andrew Byrne –
ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au

I recommend the latter, as Peter is just a packet pusher in this sense, as I
am.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugnews] !!! ADDICTION: Informing America’s
policy on illegal drugs

Joshua,
Where’d you get this please? I’d love a link.
For that matter,
If at all possible, when people are posting stuff, could you all please
supply a link to go with the articles, commentary, etc, if one (or more)
exist? Thanks. I can always use more links to go up at drugwar.com and
HighTimes.com, so please, again, if at all possible, please post links with
articles etc.
Thank you.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: Ibogaine
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:42 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugnews] !!! ADDICTION: Informing America’s
policy on illegal drugs

Not *totally* on-topic (no specific ibo content), but worthy of note.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:50:20 +1000
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: “Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs: what we don’t know
keeps
hurting us”. US wisdom then commentaries in British journal.

For debate: Executive summary of the National Research Council’s
report “Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs: what we don’t
know keeps hurting us”.  Addiction (2002) 97: 647-652

Dear Colleagues,

Griffith Edwards, long-time editor-in-chief of the Addiction journal,
has written a lead piece explaining why he published this executive
report from the ‘US National Research Council’.  ‘Addiction’ and most
of its seven commentators seem to have missed the point that this is
an unscientific report of little relevance to the dependency field
beyond the US.  It represents the illogical and ineffective approach
taken by America for fifty years which is so clearly contrary to the
interests of its own citizens, not to mention some of its close
neighbours.

In short, Addiction seems to have found one of many American
reports saying that ‘we need more research on drug use in young
Americans before we dare make any changes to drugs policy”.  As
if to justify this, Edwards seeks comments from Reuter, Maynard,
Kandel, Weatherburn, Bammer, Kleber and Klingemann, mostly
prominent researchers!  It is hardly surprising that researchers
approve of more research!  But where are the comments from coal-
face clinicians, drug user representatives, administrators, police or
advocates for drug law reform, many of whom come from
impeccable conservative backgrounds.  Even a serious scientific
journal might consider such important interest groups occasionally.

Drug policy clearly should not remain frozen until more research is
done.  Even in England things are happening steadily, with cannabis
decriminalization, heroin prescription, improved methadone
treatment and needle services.  But the medical and research
experts seem to be the last to find out!  To Maynard’s credit, he
states in his commentary that research should be done AFTER
certain policy changes are made, to see if they are beneficial.  This
is ‘harm reduction’ by definition.  However, he seeks more ‘placebo
controlled studies’, especially in prisoners denied treatment.  This
curious view may be partly due to the poor standard of methadone
treatment in the UK and doubts by some whether it actually
‘works’.  He says that “UK reform cannot proceed without logic
and evidence . [changing the US] . current myopic and corrupting
policy framework”.  But US policy rarely follows ‘logic’, being
largely based on punishment or a ‘zero tolerance’ approach.

Reuter points out that measuring the true cost of drug use is more
complex than just estimating gross quantities of drugs used, as
seems to be the current US policy aim.  Indeed, he goes on, neither
quantities nor prevalence of drug use can account for the ‘violence,
corruption and disorder’ associated with drug use and drug control.

Weatherburn intriguingly straddles the fence, saying ‘it is
fashionable to decry America’s [punitive] drug policy’ but not
saying if he is part of the ‘fashion’.  And this is a field which he
knows much better than most, or than he chooses to reveal.  I
cannot fathom why he calls inadvertent collateral damage from
policing “iatrogenic” (doctor-induced).

Bammer, Kleber and Kandel make various astute observations,
comments and suggestions.  Kleber’s ‘kernel’ message is contained
in his final para, in a sentence with over eighty words and eight
commas!  To paraphrase his ‘de Quincey’-style: ‘nothing happens at
the top since so many still wrongly consider addiction self-inflicted’
(14 words!).  Only Klingemann, published last, points to the
profound myopia of the report and its lack of consideration of a
broader perspective beyond America such as heroin trials, criminal
nature of certain drugs and harm reduction as a policy.  These were
specifically excluded from consideration in this report.  The web
address is given as: www.nap.edu/catalog/10021.html  .

The reports authors are not given, nor its date.  However, three of
their number from the Department of Economics, Iowa University,
have replied to Reuter and Kleber while ignoring Klingemann and
Maynard.  Perhaps this is because the latter’s arguments were
cogent and ‘unanswerable’.

While the American government has resumed shooting down planes
suspected of being involved in drug importation, their own doctors
are prescribing amphetamine for children … and Swiss, English and
other doctors are using heroin successfully for addiction treatment.

Edwards states: “Although American in origin, we believe that this
thoughtful statement is likely to be of wide international interest”.
‘Thoughtful’?  Can he be serious?  Coming from the country with
such a poor record of drugs policy!  And a report which apparently
does not espouse one single ‘courageous’ departure from the
ubiquitous policy of ‘zero tolerance’ in that country!

This whole exercise seems to ignore the major advances many
countries have made in the area of drug related harm.  In some
cases these problems have almost been wiped out at very little cost
(eg. overdoses in Switzerland; HIV transmission in Australia;
cannabis prosecutions in Holland).  And the report’s’ exclusions’
remove any hope of useful ways to improve the current American
approach.  Maynard eloquently calls it a “welfare system for
present-day criminals” just as “alcohol prohibition in the 1920s was
a social security system which supported Capone and the US
Mafia”.

Editor Edwards asks readers to ‘take the debate further ‘ by
submitting letters.  But Addiction appears to publish very little
correspondence arising from previously published articles – this
June edition contains none.  But under heading of letters, there are
3 apparently solicited but ‘unannounced’ commentaries (on cannabis
withdrawal review of Smith) plus a letter “from” the editor!  This
rambling apologia does everything but actually apologise, as it
possibly should, for “un-publishing” (!) an item from a decade ago
due to supposed undeclared tobacco sponsorship involving a
conference air-fare for a respected (and now deceased) Danish
researcher.

Comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“What was it that did in reality make me an opium-eater?
…. Pain was it? No, but misery. Casual overcasting of sunshine
was it? No, but blank desolation. Gloom was it that might have
departed?  No, but settled and abiding darkness. Total eclipse,
Without all hope of day!”

Thomas De Quincey. Confessions of an English Opium Eater.
The London Magazine, 1821.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?
Date: July 18, 2002 at 9:25:11 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>I would suggest it might be great to start a psychonauts list and
maybe even some more lists. This is cool.<

Hey Curtis,
Even more weirdness, and some hard news, and debate, discussions, all dealing with drugs and the War, can be found here:

>On another note, in cooperation with Andria at Drug Scope UK, and publisher of Users Voice in London, and with a ton of help both spiritual and technical from the brilliant, and thus as expected crazy folk at Mindvox.com, Drugwar has a new email list. We’d like to invite you all, and all your friends, relatives, enemies, pets, politicians, and anyone else who might not fit one of these catagories, to join us as we discuss, plot, plan, ramble and more, attempting to figure out how we got this far into such a pointless and destructive war, how it’s possible that we remain embroiled in aforementioned war, and how in the heck do we get ourselves out.

As our calm, rational, and utterly brilliant tech design guy/friend Patrick put it last night:
“if you wanna subscribe to drugwar, the address is:
drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com
This just opened roughly 3 minutes ago, the list will go wherever whomever
takes it, but primarily it is being run by Preston & Andria, and/or Andria
and Preston.  Although I’m sure I’ll provide occasional thoughtful
insights, and brief introspective moments of reasonable discourse.

Its purpose is to provide you with an up to the minute hotlist of the
best spots to cop on planet earth.  No wait, that’s the Drug Database &
Beeper/Cellphone eXchange, coming Any Minute Now.
Mostly the purpose of the list is to move the more Drug War related
conversations and materials…”<

Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?

Understood, I am only writing with him because I’m interested in
how his experience was. That is all.

Whatever phase you’re in, you are truly bent and really funny.

This is the freakiest list I have ever read in my life and without
knowing a lot of you I like this space. I even liked Brett and
Neuroskull going at it, Brett obviously has some bad experiences
with having religion forced on him, I can relate to that bro.

Peace out,

I would suggest it might be great to start a psychonauts list and
maybe even some more lists. This is cool.

Curtis

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :
>On [Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 02:14:43AM -0000], [Curtis  Hersch]
>wrote:
>|
>| On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :
>
>| I’m sending mail off list, need to ask you something. Will
>| hushmail accept mail without PGP? It must if you’re writing
>to
>| list right?
>|
>| Curtis
>
>Curtis.  While you have wonderful taste in fine music, and seem
>to
>generally be a thoughtful and interesting person.  There is this
>word you
>should look up, it’s called: subtle.  Pronounced  Sub-Tul.
>Meaning: Learn
>to shut the fuck up and think about what you’re about to say,
>before doing
>so (I paraphrase here from Webster’s New Edition).  This message
>will be
>the EXACT OPPOSITE of subtle.
>

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugnews] !!! ADDICTION: Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs
Date: July 18, 2002 at 9:21:32 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Joshua,
Where’d you get this please? I’d love a link.
For that matter,
If at all possible, when people are posting stuff, could you all please supply a link to go with the articles, commentary, etc, if one (or more) exist? Thanks. I can always use more links to go up at drugwar.com and HighTimes.com, so please, again, if at all possible, please post links with articles etc.
Thank you.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: Ibogaine
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:42 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugnews] !!! ADDICTION: Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs

Not *totally* on-topic (no specific ibo content), but worthy of note.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:50:20 +1000
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: “Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs: what we don’t know
keeps
hurting us”. US wisdom then commentaries in British journal.

For debate: Executive summary of the National Research Council’s
report “Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs: what we don’t
know keeps hurting us”.  Addiction (2002) 97: 647-652

Dear Colleagues,

Griffith Edwards, long-time editor-in-chief of the Addiction journal,
has written a lead piece explaining why he published this executive
report from the ‘US National Research Council’.  ‘Addiction’ and most
of its seven commentators seem to have missed the point that this is
an unscientific report of little relevance to the dependency field
beyond the US.  It represents the illogical and ineffective approach
taken by America for fifty years which is so clearly contrary to the
interests of its own citizens, not to mention some of its close
neighbours.

In short, Addiction seems to have found one of many American
reports saying that ‘we need more research on drug use in young
Americans before we dare make any changes to drugs policy”.  As
if to justify this, Edwards seeks comments from Reuter, Maynard,
Kandel, Weatherburn, Bammer, Kleber and Klingemann, mostly
prominent researchers!  It is hardly surprising that researchers
approve of more research!  But where are the comments from coal-
face clinicians, drug user representatives, administrators, police or
advocates for drug law reform, many of whom come from
impeccable conservative backgrounds.  Even a serious scientific
journal might consider such important interest groups occasionally.

Drug policy clearly should not remain frozen until more research is
done.  Even in England things are happening steadily, with cannabis
decriminalization, heroin prescription, improved methadone
treatment and needle services.  But the medical and research
experts seem to be the last to find out!  To Maynard’s credit, he
states in his commentary that research should be done AFTER
certain policy changes are made, to see if they are beneficial.  This
is ‘harm reduction’ by definition.  However, he seeks more ‘placebo
controlled studies’, especially in prisoners denied treatment.  This
curious view may be partly due to the poor standard of methadone
treatment in the UK and doubts by some whether it actually
‘works’.  He says that “UK reform cannot proceed without logic
and evidence . [changing the US] . current myopic and corrupting
policy framework”.  But US policy rarely follows ‘logic’, being
largely based on punishment or a ‘zero tolerance’ approach.

Reuter points out that measuring the true cost of drug use is more
complex than just estimating gross quantities of drugs used, as
seems to be the current US policy aim.  Indeed, he goes on, neither
quantities nor prevalence of drug use can account for the ‘violence,
corruption and disorder’ associated with drug use and drug control.

Weatherburn intriguingly straddles the fence, saying ‘it is
fashionable to decry America’s [punitive] drug policy’ but not
saying if he is part of the ‘fashion’.  And this is a field which he
knows much better than most, or than he chooses to reveal.  I
cannot fathom why he calls inadvertent collateral damage from
policing “iatrogenic” (doctor-induced).

Bammer, Kleber and Kandel make various astute observations,
comments and suggestions.  Kleber’s ‘kernel’ message is contained
in his final para, in a sentence with over eighty words and eight
commas!  To paraphrase his ‘de Quincey’-style: ‘nothing happens at
the top since so many still wrongly consider addiction self-inflicted’
(14 words!).  Only Klingemann, published last, points to the
profound myopia of the report and its lack of consideration of a
broader perspective beyond America such as heroin trials, criminal
nature of certain drugs and harm reduction as a policy.  These were
specifically excluded from consideration in this report.  The web
address is given as: www.nap.edu/catalog/10021.html  .

The reports authors are not given, nor its date.  However, three of
their number from the Department of Economics, Iowa University,
have replied to Reuter and Kleber while ignoring Klingemann and
Maynard.  Perhaps this is because the latter’s arguments were
cogent and ‘unanswerable’.

While the American government has resumed shooting down planes
suspected of being involved in drug importation, their own doctors
are prescribing amphetamine for children … and Swiss, English and
other doctors are using heroin successfully for addiction treatment.

Edwards states: “Although American in origin, we believe that this
thoughtful statement is likely to be of wide international interest”.
‘Thoughtful’?  Can he be serious?  Coming from the country with
such a poor record of drugs policy!  And a report which apparently
does not espouse one single ‘courageous’ departure from the
ubiquitous policy of ‘zero tolerance’ in that country!

This whole exercise seems to ignore the major advances many
countries have made in the area of drug related harm.  In some
cases these problems have almost been wiped out at very little cost
(eg. overdoses in Switzerland; HIV transmission in Australia;
cannabis prosecutions in Holland).  And the report’s’ exclusions’
remove any hope of useful ways to improve the current American
approach.  Maynard eloquently calls it a “welfare system for
present-day criminals” just as “alcohol prohibition in the 1920s was
a social security system which supported Capone and the US
Mafia”.

Editor Edwards asks readers to ‘take the debate further ‘ by
submitting letters.  But Addiction appears to publish very little
correspondence arising from previously published articles – this
June edition contains none.  But under heading of letters, there are
3 apparently solicited but ‘unannounced’ commentaries (on cannabis
withdrawal review of Smith) plus a letter “from” the editor!  This
rambling apologia does everything but actually apologise, as it
possibly should, for “un-publishing” (!) an item from a decade ago
due to supposed undeclared tobacco sponsorship involving a
conference air-fare for a respected (and now deceased) Danish
researcher.

Comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“What was it that did in reality make me an opium-eater?
…. Pain was it? No, but misery. Casual overcasting of sunshine
was it? No, but blank desolation. Gloom was it that might have
departed?  No, but settled and abiding darkness. Total eclipse,
Without all hope of day!”

Thomas De Quincey. Confessions of an English Opium Eater.
The London Magazine, 1821.

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 8:33:37 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla,

My “stance” is simple and has nothing to do with JC vs
Buddah, it is nothing “like that”, there are no sides,
my belief is better than yours (yeah man my JC can
kick your Buddahs ass any day…. what is this the 3rd
grade?) THAT IS THE POINT and yes I am intolerant of
intolerant people, people who spread fear and hate,
that put people down for any reason,  there is no
“stance” on what side of religion I stand on – it
doesn’t matter, that is not the point. And I am NOT
anti-religious/against beliefs – unless those beliefs
are that I should believe in
whateverthefuckitisthatyoubelievein. I don’t care if
it is Amway, JC, women, cars, politics, religion, god,
not god, gardening, painting, training pets, sexuality
– ANYTHING. I hate it when people tell me what to do
and am very quick to throw it right back, and it don’t
matter what it is about – the operative word is
“tell”, as in command someone, as in I am stupid if I
do anything but what they tell me… not exchanging
ideas, giving advice or an observation, that is fine.

Brett
— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:

I think Brett and Neuroskull are having some sort of
most religious or anti religious contest to see who
can keep writing the most about their opposing views
on jesus over buddha or something like that, Brett
has
never been clear about his stance except he is
intolerant of intolerance.

They may have stopped I’m not sure.

Ibogaine treatment and supply is usually listed here

Ibogaine Treatment Centres and supply options

Carla B

— Hal5943@aol.com wrote:
Who are you misinformed people. I am looking for a
way to ibogaine myself
into myself once again as I was about ten years
ago
before those nasty drugs.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Newbie Questions
Date: July 18, 2002 at 6:29:43 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: <Mzzthangg13@aol.com>

hello i just did ibo  on 7/12/02  to get offf 100mgs of dfamm meth i hate
methadon  i stayed at the center for 5 days  i fgeel better  now i got
home
on  7/16 i had to go yesterday to the hospotal cause of thr pain like
kicking
in my legs but i slept all day weds sorry i can’y write anymore wehn i
fell
better i wil karina

Wow, now that’s what I call an answer – first good one so far. Thank you so
much, definitely, Karina. I hope you do well, sincerely, and I hope that you
get better. It’s probabhly too early right now for you to be fully down,
from what I understand. Please let me and/or the list know how things
progress, if you feel comfortable doing so.

– jt

From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Newbie Questions
Date: July 18, 2002 at 6:19:25 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hello i just did ibo  on 7/12/02  to get offf 100mgs of dfamm meth i hate methadon  i stayed at the center for 5 days  i fgeel better  now i got home on  7/16 i had to go yesterday to the hospotal cause of thr pain like kicking  in my legs but i slept all day weds sorry i can’y write anymore wehn i fell better i wil karina

1111111111111

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 2:39:26 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carrie,

You’re welcome, I sorta surprised myself too.  I guess after having to live with myself for nearly 40 years I’m finally starting to get a clue.. And people like you are a big help to that end as well.

God bless,

Don

In a message dated 7/17/2002 9:16:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:

That was different and thanks 🙂

-carrie

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugnews] !!! ADDICTION: Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs
Date: July 18, 2002 at 1:42:22 AM EDT
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Not *totally* on-topic (no specific ibo content), but worthy of note.

– jt

—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:50:20 +1000
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: “Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs: what we don’t know
keeps
hurting us”. US wisdom then commentaries in British journal.

For debate: Executive summary of the National Research Council’s
report “Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs: what we don’t
know keeps hurting us”.  Addiction (2002) 97: 647-652

Dear Colleagues,

Griffith Edwards, long-time editor-in-chief of the Addiction journal,
has written a lead piece explaining why he published this executive
report from the ‘US National Research Council’.  ‘Addiction’ and most
of its seven commentators seem to have missed the point that this is
an unscientific report of little relevance to the dependency field
beyond the US.  It represents the illogical and ineffective approach
taken by America for fifty years which is so clearly contrary to the
interests of its own citizens, not to mention some of its close
neighbours.

In short, Addiction seems to have found one of many American
reports saying that ‘we need more research on drug use in young
Americans before we dare make any changes to drugs policy”.  As
if to justify this, Edwards seeks comments from Reuter, Maynard,
Kandel, Weatherburn, Bammer, Kleber and Klingemann, mostly
prominent researchers!  It is hardly surprising that researchers
approve of more research!  But where are the comments from coal-
face clinicians, drug user representatives, administrators, police or
advocates for drug law reform, many of whom come from
impeccable conservative backgrounds.  Even a serious scientific
journal might consider such important interest groups occasionally.

Drug policy clearly should not remain frozen until more research is
done.  Even in England things are happening steadily, with cannabis
decriminalization, heroin prescription, improved methadone
treatment and needle services.  But the medical and research
experts seem to be the last to find out!  To Maynard’s credit, he
states in his commentary that research should be done AFTER
certain policy changes are made, to see if they are beneficial.  This
is ‘harm reduction’ by definition.  However, he seeks more ‘placebo
controlled studies’, especially in prisoners denied treatment.  This
curious view may be partly due to the poor standard of methadone
treatment in the UK and doubts by some whether it actually
‘works’.  He says that “UK reform cannot proceed without logic
and evidence . [changing the US] . current myopic and corrupting
policy framework”.  But US policy rarely follows ‘logic’, being
largely based on punishment or a ‘zero tolerance’ approach.

Reuter points out that measuring the true cost of drug use is more
complex than just estimating gross quantities of drugs used, as
seems to be the current US policy aim.  Indeed, he goes on, neither
quantities nor prevalence of drug use can account for the ‘violence,
corruption and disorder’ associated with drug use and drug control.

Weatherburn intriguingly straddles the fence, saying ‘it is
fashionable to decry America’s [punitive] drug policy’ but not
saying if he is part of the ‘fashion’.  And this is a field which he
knows much better than most, or than he chooses to reveal.  I
cannot fathom why he calls inadvertent collateral damage from
policing “iatrogenic” (doctor-induced).

Bammer, Kleber and Kandel make various astute observations,
comments and suggestions.  Kleber’s ‘kernel’ message is contained
in his final para, in a sentence with over eighty words and eight
commas!  To paraphrase his ‘de Quincey’-style: ‘nothing happens at
the top since so many still wrongly consider addiction self-inflicted’
(14 words!).  Only Klingemann, published last, points to the
profound myopia of the report and its lack of consideration of a
broader perspective beyond America such as heroin trials, criminal
nature of certain drugs and harm reduction as a policy.  These were
specifically excluded from consideration in this report.  The web
address is given as: www.nap.edu/catalog/10021.html  .

The reports authors are not given, nor its date.  However, three of
their number from the Department of Economics, Iowa University,
have replied to Reuter and Kleber while ignoring Klingemann and
Maynard.  Perhaps this is because the latter’s arguments were
cogent and ‘unanswerable’.

While the American government has resumed shooting down planes
suspected of being involved in drug importation, their own doctors
are prescribing amphetamine for children … and Swiss, English and
other doctors are using heroin successfully for addiction treatment.

Edwards states: “Although American in origin, we believe that this
thoughtful statement is likely to be of wide international interest”.
‘Thoughtful’?  Can he be serious?  Coming from the country with
such a poor record of drugs policy!  And a report which apparently
does not espouse one single ‘courageous’ departure from the
ubiquitous policy of ‘zero tolerance’ in that country!

This whole exercise seems to ignore the major advances many
countries have made in the area of drug related harm.  In some
cases these problems have almost been wiped out at very little cost
(eg. overdoses in Switzerland; HIV transmission in Australia;
cannabis prosecutions in Holland).  And the report’s’ exclusions’
remove any hope of useful ways to improve the current American
approach.  Maynard eloquently calls it a “welfare system for
present-day criminals” just as “alcohol prohibition in the 1920s was
a social security system which supported Capone and the US
Mafia”.

Editor Edwards asks readers to ‘take the debate further ‘ by
submitting letters.  But Addiction appears to publish very little
correspondence arising from previously published articles – this
June edition contains none.  But under heading of letters, there are
3 apparently solicited but ‘unannounced’ commentaries (on cannabis
withdrawal review of Smith) plus a letter “from” the editor!  This
rambling apologia does everything but actually apologise, as it
possibly should, for “un-publishing” (!) an item from a decade ago
due to supposed undeclared tobacco sponsorship involving a
conference air-fare for a respected (and now deceased) Danish
researcher.

Comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“What was it that did in reality make me an opium-eater?
…. Pain was it? No, but misery. Casual overcasting of sunshine
was it? No, but blank desolation. Gloom was it that might have
departed?  No, but settled and abiding darkness. Total eclipse,
Without all hope of day!”

Thomas De Quincey. Confessions of an English Opium Eater.
The London Magazine, 1821.

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?
Date: July 18, 2002 at 12:37:38 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Understood, I am only writing with him because I’m interested in how his experience was. That is all.

Whatever phase you’re in, you are truly bent and really funny.

This is the freakiest list I have ever read in my life and without knowing a lot of you I like this space. I even liked Brett and Neuroskull going at it, Brett obviously has some bad experiences with having religion forced on him, I can relate to that bro.

Peace out,

I would suggest it might be great to start a psychonauts list and maybe even some more lists. This is cool.

Curtis

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :
On [Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 02:14:43AM -0000], [Curtis  Hersch] wrote:
|
| On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :

| I’m sending mail off list, need to ask you something. Will
| hushmail accept mail without PGP? It must if you’re writing to
| list right?
|
| Curtis

Curtis.  While you have wonderful taste in fine music, and seem to
generally be a thoughtful and interesting person.  There is this word you
should look up, it’s called: subtle.  Pronounced  Sub-Tul.  Meaning: Learn
to shut the fuck up and think about what you’re about to say, before doing
so (I paraphrase here from Webster’s New Edition).  This message will be
the EXACT OPPOSITE of subtle.

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 12:25:10 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What does throwing Mormons down wells got to do with anything?

In a message dated 7/17/2002 8:52:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jellking@yahoo.com writes:

That’s funny (or not)!  When I get really depressed about the world, I think, “LSD in the wells, only solution.”  Jane

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 12:23:56 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey, Hal, (before I sign off here) you remind me of something Yoda said in “the Empire strkes back”: Don’t try, DO!  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes

From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 12:20:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/17/2002 7:17:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Hal5943@aol.com writes:

Who are you misinformed people. I am looking for a way to ibogaine myself into myself once again as I was about ten years ago before those nasty drugs.

Who are the mis-informed here??
not that I post here often myself, but from what I`ve seen <read> U seem to be either mis, or perhaps un informed. Its
getting a bit boring to keep hearing from those like you who want ibogaine, yet come here to babble   instead of just going & getting dosed.. & hey, I know it ain`t easy, either. I`ve been trying for some ibogaine for years, & some who I`ve told about it have been `unsprung` for some time now….too bad there aren`t  any Dr. Learys around anymore, to deal with ibogaine as he did w/ acid.  -mirror-

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 12:19:44 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carrie says, “It’s too bad but ditto.

Short of that I don’t see anything changing except
everything getting worse and worse.

-carrie”
I know, and it does seem, especially in the U.S. that humanity grows more ignorant day by day.  I think, however, that if we all who felt this way could find some basic kind of self-responsibility and fellowship, we could begin to make a difference.  Since the people on this list all seem to be trying, it’s hard to know what else to do, but bit by bit, I think we can collectively “get our act together.”  At least I think that on Wednesdays, by Friday I may be all weirded out again!  Jane
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From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 12:16:26 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Neuroskull I wanted to say I appreciate what you just
did. You are the first hardcore Christian person I
have ever met who has listened when anyone asked them
to calm down.

It makes me and I think others much more likely to
listen to what you might have to say in the future.

That was different and thanks 🙂

-carrie

On [Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 11:20:32PM -0400],
[NeuroSkull@aol.com] wrote:

| Jane, I LOVE YOU!  And I’m sorry for mounting a
mini-crusade
| yesterday.  Sometimes my mouth gets ahead of my
brain.
|
| In Christ,
|
| Don

See…?  Everything’s all-good and just super-fine.
<Group Hug>

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 18, 2002 at 12:12:36 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s too bad but ditto.

Short of that I don’t see anything changing except
everything getting worse and worse.

-carrie

— Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com> wrote:

Patrick: I’m glad you asked me that, because
personally I feel that everything
Over There — and Over Here for that matter — could
reach some sort of
settlement, agreement type of situation, several
hundred lifetimes faster,
if we simply sprayed LSD and MDMA over the whole
entire situation.”

That’s funny (or not)!  When I get really depressed
about the world, I think, “LSD in the wells, only
solution.”  Jane

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “Angelo Marotta” <marottaa@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:52:31 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I thought I signed onto an Ibogaine list.
I seemed to be lost.
Can anyone tell me the address of the Ibogaine list?

Thanks,
Angelo

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:30 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and
ibogaine too)

On [Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:12:33AM -0400], [preston peet]
wrote:

| Don wrote
| >I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never
will nor am I
| against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend
invited me onto this
| list and that’s why you see me here….P.S.S To my friend
that invited
| me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a
nuisance, you
| can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but
I leave it up
| to you. <

Hey Don,

That’d be me.  Fully guilty.  Don has been on some of the
other lists for
quite a while, he appears to be similar to many of us — the
US that I
know, I can’t speak for everybody — he has some issues n
things, he’s
somewhat crazy, and he loves his understanding of God a
great deal.

For what it’s worth, people are people, Don loves Jesus, but
then, on the
flipside of all that, he also signed himself into MindVox
and stuck
around.  While we get a tremendous volume of hate mail and
death threats,
from those who want to share God’s love, and have problems
with our
existence, thoughts, and those JesusCrackHead banners Drew
has running;
most of them don’t stick around after venting and explaining
how God will
kill us all.  <shrug>

Go figure.  I’m not sure I understand that, but prolly I
don’t need to,
and I have no problem accepting it.

Don, you are certainly as welcome to hang out as anyone, my
only request
would echo whut Carrie asked, which is PLEASE don’t turn
this into a
Jesus Or Else discussion that never ends.  There are many
people present
here, who have all found different paths that lead to God.
One of them
would be me.  I’m not a Christian, a long time ago, in a
universe far, far
away, I was raised a Roman Catholic Atheist, “forgiv me
fadduh, for eye
haz sinned.  Prolly I shall do so again, but ahm doinz my
very best heah.”
I presently belong to no organized religious faith, but many
of my beliefs
find expression and a lotta resonance with Buddhism.

I am not a Buddhist.  I am a member of no organized
religion.

None of this changes the fact that I like you (Don), and you
are more than
welcome to hang around.  I have absolutely no problem with
Christian
Fundamentalists, or anybody really.  For that matter you
seem to do just
super-fine on the Vox list, where the only organized
religion present is
either paganism or full-blown psychosis.  And, the psychotic
pagans were
completely accepting of your two Great Works: Pre-Adamic
Star Wars and
Abominable Hybrid Offspring of the Nephilim.  So, whatsa
mattuh wid ewe?

I know you are VERY prolific, and could argue faith back and
forth all day
and every day, but the reason I thought you might find this
list of
interest was, see, okay, here are a lot of people, many of
them with
severe problems they are overcoming, these are some of the
things that
ibogaine does, some it doesn’t do, etcetera…

If you like I am more than happy to give you a JESUS list!
You can make
MindVox start radiating Jesus, because, well, why not.  I
like the J man.

So, to conclude.  You’re not the only one with your beliefs
on this list,
there is some lhuterson or lhutcherson (?) person who also
likes to pop up
every so often, express her faith that JESUS is the answer
to everything.
‘Cept, then she goes away for a while.  She doesn’t keep up
a constant
barrage of this, which completely defocuses the purpose of
this list.
Which is to talk about ibogaine, addiction, and then,
everything on the
whole entire planet, most especially GOSSIP!  But not
constantly.

Thusly: please chill a bit.  If you have any questions ’bout
what ibogaine
does, well hey, you can ask.  If you have any insights about
maintaining,
I agree with ya ’bout the hittin’ the gym part; just please
do not try to
convert everyone — even if it’s fun or provides one helluva
emotional
rush — because prolly, it won’t work, and just annoys
people.

Thank yooz,

Patrick

——————————————-
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From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:52:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick: I’m glad you asked me that, because personally I feel that everything
Over There — and Over Here for that matter — could reach some sort of
settlement, agreement type of situation, several hundred lifetimes faster,
if we simply sprayed LSD and MDMA over the whole entire situation.”
That’s funny (or not)!  When I get really depressed about the world, I think, “LSD in the wells, only solution.”  Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:39:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Funny that you should say that!  Earlier I toyed with the idea of saying that we should send Patrick over to negotiate between the Palestinians and the Jews..  Sure couldn’t hurt!  Jane, I LOVE YOU!  And I’m sorry for mounting a mini-crusade yesterday.  Sometimes my mouth gets ahead of my brain. 

In Christ, 

Don
Thanks.  You know, on ibo2, as I call it, I SAW in panoramic precognition (many of you know about stuff like this) my visit to the rainforest (ayahuasca, yes, but mostly environmentalism for the Bolivian rainforest) AND Jerusalem.  I lived in the heart of the old city for 3 weeks (awesome).  The Academy of Jerusalem, who graciously had me as a guest in their Old City apartment, had one window overlooking the palestinian souks and the other overlooking the Wailing Wall and Dome of the Rock.  Talk about a place where people live their religions…..the chanting (in 3 religions, at least, and don’t forget the Canaanite) begins at about 3:30 a.m and goes on.  Of course I was there during Ramadan and Christmas.  Bethlehem was disgustingly commercial, even while Yassar Arafat attended midnight mass in the Church of the Nativity (this was the millenium, and everyone was trying hard, I guess, to capitalize on the moment).  Anyway, I’m pretty interested in peace, like every sane person alive, and believe we have to start with ourselves!  Jane
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:29:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 11:20:32PM -0400], [NeuroSkull@aol.com] wrote:

| Funny that you should say that!  Earlier I toyed with the idea of saying that
| we should send Patrick over to negotiate between the Palestinians and the
| Jews..  Sure couldn’t hurt!

I’m glad you asked me that, because personally I feel that everything
Over There — and Over Here for that matter — could reach some sort of
settlement, agreement type of situation, several hundred lifetimes faster,
if we simply sprayed LSD and MDMA over the whole entire situation.

Of course this is merely my opinion; others may disagree and possibly even
put forth DIFFERENT concepts and ideas.  Life’s just like that sometimes.

| Jane, I LOVE YOU!  And I’m sorry for mounting a  mini-crusade
| yesterday.  Sometimes my mouth gets ahead of my brain.
|
| In Christ,
|
| Don

See…?  Everything’s all-good and just super-fine.  <Group Hug>

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:24:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 02:14:43AM -0000], [Curtis  Hersch] wrote:
|
| On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :

| I’m sending mail off list, need to ask you something. Will
| hushmail accept mail without PGP? It must if you’re writing to
| list right?
|
| Curtis

Curtis.  While you have wonderful taste in fine music, and seem to
generally be a thoughtful and interesting person.  There is this word you
should look up, it’s called: subtle.  Pronounced  Sub-Tul.  Meaning: Learn
to shut the fuck up and think about what you’re about to say, before doing
so (I paraphrase here from Webster’s New Edition).  This message will be
the EXACT OPPOSITE of subtle.

You couldn’t possibly have INTENT to SOLICIT the purchase of SCHEDULE 1
SUBSTANCES, and plans to CONSPIRE to commit a FELONY right…?  Gosh I
hope not.  It’s great that we don’t log any IP’s and delete all the logs
every 5 minutes or so, like right now for instance.  Because saying all
that at a list of several hundred people you don’t know, may not be the
most brilliant thing you could possibly do.  Even though I know all you’re
gonna talk about is the weather, or possibly some legal location to
experience the wonder of ibogaine.  Using PGP.

“Hello Occifer!  I have heard this is a drug-infested hellhole.  Sounds
great to me!  Could you please tell me the nearest street corner where I
may purchase some Heroin and an 8ball!?!?11!!@!”

Just like do whatever, but please don’t run an announcement.  I realize I
have just added flashing neon to your sign, but it’d be groovy if people
did not repeat whatcha just did.  We fully intend to start the WorldWide
Access Database, but in my old age I have grown wary of taking any action
whatsoever, without having at least 4 lawyers surround me in a huddle and
whisper sweet nothings into my ear.  And do a good job at the delivery
too, I mean I WANT them to work at making me truly BELIEVE what they say,
or it’s just No Good.

Possibly, this too may be — and prolly is — an overreaction to all the,
“Where do I buy DrugZ!?!!!!!” mail I keep getting.  How should I know…?
I’m not a drug dealer, go to your nearest NA meeting, and you’ll find
lots of helpful people there.  Or look up “escort” in the yellow pages;
find the ho’s, they’ll help you find DRugZ.  Plus, also, in the worst
case, you can go to any Greyhound station.  It is U.S. Federal Law that
all Greyhound stations must be located within 2 blocks of at least half a
dozen pitchers.  Failing all that just find the street called, “Martin
Luther King Jr. Blvd” in whatever city you live in, and at least one end
will contain many helpful youths who may give the illusion of
aimlessly loitering, but are in actuality working super hard, selling
DRUGS!

If the healing molecule you wanna locate is ibogaine, well then whut Carla
sed’ is absolutely correct:

Ibogaine Treatment Centres and supply options

| >Shout outs to Patrick and Dave, like yer recovery anti-recovery
| >rap in HT.

Thank ewe.

p.s., pardon me, I seem to have misplaced my tinfoil hat today, the
weather is extremely paranoid.  This usually indicates a SpiraL into the
depressive part of manic depression is about to begin, thus — checking
watch — I should be Superman again in about 48 hours.

Until then, I remain very truly yours, curled in a fetal position under my
bed.  Aha, I have just realized that this time I will BEAT the depressive
part, by simply NEVER GOING TO SLEEP AGAIN!  Why haven’t I thought of this
before, it’s brilliant!  No wait, I have thought of it, d’oh.

Patrick

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:20:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Funny that you should say that!  Earlier I toyed with the idea of saying that we should send Patrick over to negotiate between the Palestinians and the Jews..  Sure couldn’t hurt!  Jane, I LOVE YOU!  And I’m sorry for mounting a mini-crusade yesterday.  Sometimes my mouth gets ahead of my brain.

In Christ,

Don

In a message dated 7/17/2002 8:16:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jellking@yahoo.com writes:

Let’s take it to Jerusalem!  Love, Jane

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:16:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Don (Neuroskull) writes, “I’ve stopped.  And I apologize if my postings created a bit of a stir.  That wasn’t my intention.  In my ignorance and enthusiasm I mistook the ibogaine list as being similar to the vox list.. And well, as they say in modern parlance “My bad”.  I’ve never been accused of brilliance”
No harm done, though lots of venting. I (remember me?  sorry, folks, I try hard not to debate about religion with people, makes me too crazy) was offering Eric a book suggestion, one that helps me a lot.  Especially with MY manic phases.  It worries me though when people seeking help end up signing off  an ibo list because they can’t deal with the judgmental ranting.  It’s nice to see a reconciliation of sorts.  And, I must say, its rather exciting to see the change from judgment (on both sides) to a kind of acceptance of difference.  Let’s take it to Jerusalem!  Love, Jane
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From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 10:21:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla,

I’ve stopped.  And I apologize if my postings created a bit of a stir.  That wasn’t my intention.  In my ignorance and enthusiasm I mistook the ibogaine list as being similar to the vox list.. And well, as they say in modern parlance “My bad”.  I’ve never been accused of brilliance.

God bless,

Don
(Always accepting emails regarding salvation through Christ)

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?
Date: July 17, 2002 at 10:14:43 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :

Out of the loop for a while. What’s happening with ibo and moving it off schedule I? I am guessing nothing.

Picked up the WSJ which is why I ask. Dr. Mash has some words but like so many of her words they don’t really say anything. I don’t see noribogaine or MC-18 or anything else out there. Same story, years later, no changes.

I don’t have any idea I just got here bro. But it looks like a fun soap opera.

I also don’t see ibogaine anywhere except out of the country.

I must ask you that.

I’ve read the sites, if there is any progress I must have missed it. ibogaine org, net, uk.

This thing kicks ass, whatever it is. Thought Mindvox was hackerland back in the day. Welcome back from the dead.

No shit man, that’s how I found this place except by just wondering where phantom went to, it went to dope and then psychedelics and it’s changed some. Too cool bro.

Clean off methadone for 9 months here. Treated by the wise in the beautiful city of San Francisco.

Life is good.

I’m sending mail off list, need to ask you something. Will hushmail accept mail without PGP? It must if you’re writing to list right?

Curtis

Shout outs to Patrick and Dave, like yer recovery anti-recovery rap in HT.

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 9:47:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think Brett and Neuroskull are having some sort of
most religious or anti religious contest to see who
can keep writing the most about their opposing views
on jesus over buddha or something like that, Brett has
never been clear about his stance except he is
intolerant of intolerance.

They may have stopped I’m not sure.

Ibogaine treatment and supply is usually listed here

Ibogaine Treatment Centres and supply options

Carla B

— Hal5943@aol.com wrote:
Who are you misinformed people. I am looking for a
way to ibogaine myself
into myself once again as I was about ten years ago
before those nasty drugs.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: Hal5943@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 9:16:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Who are you misinformed people. I am looking for a way to ibogaine myself into myself once again as I was about ten years ago before those nasty drugs.

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 9:05:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Minister of Disinformation at the First Church of MindVox/Escort Agency

That is an honorary title bestowed upon me by the Uber Doom Meister himself.  Words can’t express how honored and loved that simple gesture made me feel.  Really.  God bless his soul.

Don

In a message dated 7/17/2002 11:39:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vector6@space.com writes:

Neuroskull is ok. Like Patrick said he has been on the
vox list forever, he has some kind of christian thing
but he’s ok. This is the only place I’ve ever seen him
preach before, besides his web pages and books.

He does go on usenet and talk about videogames a lot.
And sign his text with

Neuroskull
Minister of Disinformation at the First Church of
MindVox/Escort Agency

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 17, 2002 at 8:57:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Carrie,

You saw my future self eh?  Made that page during one of my manic periods.  Yeah, I’m a real happy fella in that pic, a bit oblivious, yet happy.  Wonder if I’ll have any friends during that time in the future… Well, somebody had to take that pic.

Don

In a message dated 7/17/2002 2:13:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, carrierollins@yahoo.com writes:

Like the future you on your home page don 🙂

-carrie

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 17, 2002 at 6:21:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I messed up with my
effexor dosage 3 days ago…

Neuro

I have a feeling that ibogaine would do you a lot of
good, so would getting laid but that would be a topic
for another list. Right, have a nice long ibo trip,
you would not be the first to see “GOD” (JC or
whatever your diety of choice is – well, sometimes
“other” dieties…).

Brett

perhaps that’s why I went off on a rant.  My
apologies.  I like you too
Patrick!

Don

In a message dated 7/17/2002 10:38:44 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
digital@phantom.com writes:

Thusly: please chill a bit.  If you have any
questions ’bout what ibogaine
does, well hey, you can ask.  If you have any
insights about maintaining,
I agree with ya ’bout the hittin’ the gym part;
just please do not try to
convert everyone — even if it’s fun or provides
one helluva emotional
rush — because prolly, it won’t work, and just
annoys people.

Thank yooz,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 6:16:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

it’s never my intention to anger anyone with the
Good News of Christ….

Well, gee you might try a different tact. You know, do
unto others as you would have them do unto you… You
wouldn’t like to be told you are an ignorant, that JC
is evil (and I said I have my own “stories”…), that
you should cchange your religion, HI, I am NEURO and
YOU should change your beliefs cause I said so… From
your logic, maybe I should hate black people cause I
had an early bad experience when I was mugged or the
VERY MANY times people do stuff (like LITERALLY KILL
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE) in the name of GOD or JC – does
that make believing in JC/GOD of the bible bad??? No,
so I hear you had a bad experience, so what, we have
all had them, so YOU go be a Christian but don’t
expect me to be one because of YOUR experiences and I
don’t expect you to believe in what I believe in
because of mine. Maybe if I didn’t hear those
obnoxious statements (and a lot of other maybes) I
would take more interest. I have no problem with JC,
none at all, in fact it is part of truth. As for your
JC, YOUR god, YOUR church – the way it is put to me –
GO STICK THEM ALL UP YOUR ASS, cause I ain’t
listening. Want to chat about GOD, JC, being Muslum,
crystals (not my “thing” but may be someone elses),
Jewish teachings, Vidanta – (equally, you want to call
it differently fine but I will have nothing to do with
anyone selling me something that THEY just know I must
have…), you may be surprised at the similarities,
especially in some early (and not what they teach you
in Sunday School) text.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?
Date: July 17, 2002 at 5:18:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— ascending@hushmail.com wrote:

Out of the loop for a while. What’s happening with
ibo and moving it off schedule I? I am guessing
nothing.

Good guess!

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 17, 2002 at 5:13:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Don and thanks for stopping the spamming with jesus
🙂 Welcome to the list too.

The world gets even stranger. A satanic cult likes
mindvox, sure I can see that. The illuminanti are
online, of course they are where else would they be.
Fundementalist Christians like Mindvox. I would not
have seen that one coming.

Like the future you on your home page don 🙂

-carrie

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
Message received, understood, will comply.  The
Jesus list sounds great, I’d
really enjoy having something like that to post on.
I don’t mind hanging out
here on ibogaine either.  I messed up with my
effexor dosage 3 days ago…
perhaps that’s why I went off on a rant.  My
apologies.  I like you too
Patrick!

Don

In a message dated 7/17/2002 10:38:44 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
digital@phantom.com writes:

Thusly: please chill a bit.  If you have any
questions ’bout what ibogaine
does, well hey, you can ask.  If you have any
insights about maintaining,
I agree with ya ’bout the hittin’ the gym part;
just please do not try to
convert everyone — even if it’s fun or provides
one helluva emotional
rush — because prolly, it won’t work, and just
annoys people.

Thank yooz,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
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From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: [ibogaine] what’s changed since 2001?
Date: July 17, 2002 at 4:25:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Out of the loop for a while. What’s happening with ibo and moving it off schedule I? I am guessing nothing.

Picked up the WSJ which is why I ask. Dr. Mash has some words but like so many of her words they don’t really say anything. I don’t see noribogaine or MC-18 or anything else out there. Same story, years later, no changes.

I also don’t see ibogaine anywhere except out of the country.

I’ve read the sites, if there is any progress I must have missed it. ibogaine org, net, uk.

This thing kicks ass, whatever it is. Thought Mindvox was hackerland back in the day. Welcome back from the dead.

Clean off methadone for 9 months here. Treated by the wise in the beautiful city of San Francisco.

Life is good.

Shout outs to Patrick and Dave, like yer recovery anti-recovery rap in HT.

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 3:41:26 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for the kind words.

Yeah, I was going through an aggressive stage (probably because of the medication I’m on) when I read the thing about…….  Oh the heck with it.  I’m in too good of a mood now to think about the last couple of days.  Man, it’s never my intention to anger anyone with the Good News of Christ….  Bottom line:  I love you guys (even the heathens) 😉  I want everyone to have the salvation that God has offered us through Christ… Okay, I won’t say any more about that since this is about ibogaine.  That’s some kind of a plant isn’t it?  I can tell you all a funny story about plants.

Back in 1980 a friend and I went to the drive in to watch the movies “Fiendish Plot of Doctor Fu Man Chu” along with “Close Encounters of the Third Kind, special edition”.  We bought some weed from some people we didn’t know…  Hooray, we didn’t know at the time, but it was laced with PCP!  We were parked up front and center.  Toking away.  About mid way through Close Encounters, the PCP began to take effect… My eyeballs cracked!  I began to see things as if I was looking through broken glass.  Red flashes of light were exploding in my head.  I got out of my truck and stared up at the big screen…. The ship was coming down to devils tower….  BAM!  Next thing I know, I’m flat on my back.  There is a group of people around me..  Their noses are acting weird.  I’m still seeing explosions and flashes of light, and their noses are moving around on their faces.  I stand up and stagger to the bed of my pickup.  I fall again, but grab hold of the side.  Now the horns are honking in the theater as I’ve become the center of attention!  Next thing I know, we’re on the freeway.. My friend is driving like mad..  I end up in the hospital, strapped down to a bed… They are pumping something into me?  I overhear the nurses laughing.. “That’s what he gets for smoking marijuana”…. Yeah, that’s what I get.  I don’t smoke grass any more.  That experience  kinda ruined it for me.

In a message dated 7/17/2002 11:39:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vector6@space.com writes:

He does go on usenet and talk about videogames a lot.
And sign his text with

Neuroskull
Minister of Disinformation at the First Church of
MindVox/Escort Agency

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 17, 2002 at 3:18:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Message received, understood, will comply.  The Jesus list sounds great, I’d really enjoy having something like that to post on.  I don’t mind hanging out here on ibogaine either.  I messed up with my effexor dosage 3 days ago… perhaps that’s why I went off on a rant.  My apologies.  I like you too Patrick!

Don

In a message dated 7/17/2002 10:38:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, digital@phantom.com writes:

Thusly: please chill a bit.  If you have any questions ’bout what ibogaine
does, well hey, you can ask.  If you have any insights about maintaining,
I agree with ya ’bout the hittin’ the gym part; just please do not try to
convert everyone — even if it’s fun or provides one helluva emotional
rush — because prolly, it won’t work, and just annoys people.

Thank yooz,

Patrick

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] neuro!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 2:39:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Neuroskull is ok. Like Patrick said he has been on the
vox list forever, he has some kind of christian thing
but he’s ok. This is the only place I’ve ever seen him
preach before, besides his web pages and books.

He does go on usenet and talk about videogames a lot.
And sign his text with

Neuroskull
Minister of Disinformation at the First Church of
MindVox/Escort Agency

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=neuroskull%40aol&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=20020421015949.25222.00004697%40mb-ci.aol.com&rnum=4

He’s funny and has a sense of humor.

Maybe he’s just having a bad time and doing too much
crack, he sent photos of his crackpipe, his dog and
some of his guns to the Vox list a few months ago. His
novel too.

.:vector:.
Unsaved Pagan

___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 17, 2002 at 1:30:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:12:33AM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| Don wrote
| >I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I
| against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this
| list and that’s why you see me here….P.S.S To my friend that invited
| me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a nuisance, you
| can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but I leave it up
| to you. <

Hey Don,

That’d be me.  Fully guilty.  Don has been on some of the other lists for
quite a while, he appears to be similar to many of us — the US that I
know, I can’t speak for everybody — he has some issues n things, he’s
somewhat crazy, and he loves his understanding of God a great deal.

For what it’s worth, people are people, Don loves Jesus, but then, on the
flipside of all that, he also signed himself into MindVox and stuck
around.  While we get a tremendous volume of hate mail and death threats,
from those who want to share God’s love, and have problems with our
existence, thoughts, and those JesusCrackHead banners Drew has running;
most of them don’t stick around after venting and explaining how God will
kill us all.  <shrug>

Go figure.  I’m not sure I understand that, but prolly I don’t need to,
and I have no problem accepting it.

Don, you are certainly as welcome to hang out as anyone, my only request
would echo whut Carrie asked, which is PLEASE don’t turn this into a
Jesus Or Else discussion that never ends.  There are many people present
here, who have all found different paths that lead to God.  One of them
would be me.  I’m not a Christian, a long time ago, in a universe far, far
away, I was raised a Roman Catholic Atheist, “forgiv me fadduh, for eye
haz sinned.  Prolly I shall do so again, but ahm doinz my very best heah.”
I presently belong to no organized religious faith, but many of my beliefs
find expression and a lotta resonance with Buddhism.

I am not a Buddhist.  I am a member of no organized religion.

None of this changes the fact that I like you (Don), and you are more than
welcome to hang around.  I have absolutely no problem with Christian
Fundamentalists, or anybody really.  For that matter you seem to do just
super-fine on the Vox list, where the only organized religion present is
either paganism or full-blown psychosis.  And, the psychotic pagans were
completely accepting of your two Great Works: Pre-Adamic Star Wars and
Abominable Hybrid Offspring of the Nephilim.  So, whatsa mattuh wid ewe?

I know you are VERY prolific, and could argue faith back and forth all day
and every day, but the reason I thought you might find this list of
interest was, see, okay, here are a lot of people, many of them with
severe problems they are overcoming, these are some of the things that
ibogaine does, some it doesn’t do, etcetera…

If you like I am more than happy to give you a JESUS list!  You can make
MindVox start radiating Jesus, because, well, why not.  I like the J man.

So, to conclude.  You’re not the only one with your beliefs on this list,
there is some lhuterson or lhutcherson (?) person who also likes to pop up
every so often, express her faith that JESUS is the answer to everything.
‘Cept, then she goes away for a while.  She doesn’t keep up a constant
barrage of this, which completely defocuses the purpose of this list.
Which is to talk about ibogaine, addiction, and then, everything on the
whole entire planet, most especially GOSSIP!  But not constantly.

Thusly: please chill a bit.  If you have any questions ’bout what ibogaine
does, well hey, you can ask.  If you have any insights about maintaining,
I agree with ya ’bout the hittin’ the gym part; just please do not try to
convert everyone — even if it’s fun or provides one helluva emotional
rush — because prolly, it won’t work, and just annoys people.

Thank yooz,

Patrick

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] HELP!!!!!!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:55:05 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s all listed at the bottom of each email:

List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com>

In a message dated 7/17/2002 8:34:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Vittivatti@cs.com writes:

List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com>

From: Vittivatti@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] HELP!!!!!!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:33:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Me too. Can you remove me? I can’t handle all the mail. Alison

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] turned into a snarling animal
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:26:53 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wanted slimeskull but it was already taken.  Got the idea of using some sort of skull after reading the cyberpunk handbook.  Just thought anything with the word “skull” in it sounded really cool.

In a message dated 7/17/2002 1:48:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU writes:

> Would you like to hear this entire story from beginning to end?

I’m more curious why you picked ‘NeuroSkull’. To me it sounds
kind of pagan.

Bill Ross

From: “rbapark” <rbapark@netactive.co.za>
Subject: [ibogaine] HELP!!!!!!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 11:08:07 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Could someone, anyone please tell me how the hell to unsubscribe to this mailing list. I really appreciate all the stories, point of views and responses but my mail box has limited inbox space thus filling my inbox up and I am missing out on business orders emailed to me.
Please, I beg anyone to help me with this dilemma.
Thanking you in advance.
Pierre

From: “rbapark” <rbapark@netactive.co.za>
Subject: [ibogaine] Take me off this mailing list PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: July 17, 2002 at 10:48:01 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please take me of this mailing list seeing that it fills up my limited spaced inbox and thus I am missing out on orders being mailed to me. PLEASE, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THANKING YOU IN ADVANCE.
PIERRE
rbapark@netactive.co.za

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was Eric…is now Jesus and Ibogaine.
Date: July 17, 2002 at 10:39:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Don,

In “my opinion” ibogaine does not change a persons religious belief system
unless the person themself possibly considers their belief system as death
oriented and I am not sure it would even change it then.  Ibogaine appears to
support a philosophy of life regardless of the religious context it is taken
within.  It is sometimes called the tree of life. It is a powerful substance.
If you have to work out religious issues within your own belief system that
may prove to be arduous, or not, depending on you, your learning abilities
and your fears or your courage.

Howard

In a message dated 7/16/02 11:45:10 PM, NeuroSkull@aol.com writes:

I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I
against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this
list and that’s why you see me here.  I wholeheartedly believe in the Lord
Jesus
and that salvation is found only through Him.  With my apologies to Carrie,
it’s not my intention to “spam” this list, offend anyone just for kicks
or argue with the sole purpose of “proving myself right and everyone else
wrong”.  Sincerely I tell you, I weep over those that are lost without
Christ.  God/Christ are my life.  I have no life outside of Christ.  To
some that may seem dismal, maybe even a bit sad.  But I voluntarily left the
“world” so that I can more readily live for Christ.  I strive daily to
have a faith that is pro-active…  Well, so much so that the line is blurred
between what I strive for and what I have become.  So, what I see, what
Christ tells me through His Word the Bible.  Is that there are two choices
in life.  God’s way, through Christ which leads to eternal life with God.
Or death and destruction in Hell.  I’m not forcing this on anyone.  I simply
point to the way that leads to eternal life.  The way is Jesus Christ.
Those are His words, I only speak them because He commanded us believers to
do
so.  I know this causes some angry responses, Jesus said that it would.  But
it must be done for there are those that desire to be saved, but just don’t
know the way of escape yet.
You all don’t have to refer to me as Neuroskull (but ain’t it cool…!)
My name is Don.

P.S.  Oh.. my views… I wasn’t brought up in a “religious” household or
anything like that.  It was quite bohemian actually.  I’d love to tell
you more.. but, that would just end up changing the WHOLE focus of this
thread…
Some other time perhaps.
P.S.S To my friend that invited me onto this list.  If you think I’m being
too much of a nuisance, you can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like
to stay, but I leave it up to you.

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] turned into a snarling animal
Date: July 17, 2002 at 4:48:13 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Would you like to hear this entire story from beginning to end?

I’m more curious why you picked ‘NeuroSkull’. To me it sounds
kind of pagan.

Bill Ross

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] entire story?
Date: July 17, 2002 at 12:44:16 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Would you like to hear this entire story from beginning to end? <

NO, Please.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] turned into a snarling animal

Ha ha.. That’s a good question you ask.  But the way to tell the difference if it’s from God or not is by whether or not the words being spoken edify Christ.  She was saying things like “Christ is nothing”, “Buddha is much stronger” etc.

1 John 4:2-3
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Since it is the Holy Spirit which speaks through Christians when they speak in “Tongues” I could tell that this wasn’t the Holy Spirit speaking through her by the way she verbally attacked the person of Christ.  I was the only person that remained in the area once she began to bounce off the floor, everyone else fled outside in fear.  (It began in a restaurant and ended in a parking lot).

Would you like to hear this entire story from beginning to end?

Don

In a message dated 7/16/2002 8:22:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE WASN’T SPEAKING IN TONGUES? WHO INTERPRETED WHAT WAS GOING ON AND DECIDED IT WAS EVIL DEMONS? WHAT IF IT WAS GOD SPEAKING THROUGH HER AND YOU AND “FRIENDS” DECIDED IT WAS THE DEMONS? WHAT THEN? WOULDN’T YOU BE EMBARRASSED?
Peace,
Preston

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] jesus the prankster? (oh, and ibogaine too)
Date: July 17, 2002 at 12:12:33 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Don wrote
>I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this list and that’s why you see me here….P.S.S To my friend that invited me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a nuisance, you can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but I leave it up to you. <

Uh-oh. Was someone bored and decided to see what would happen if a totally off-topic thread to ibogaine, (certainly not the first here, I myself being pretty guilty of said sin myself on occasion) were introduced onto the list? I can’t help now but suspect this is a jest, a prank of some sick twisted (and funny if so, and heck if not as well to be honest) sort designed to push buttons and inspire a whole lot of replies from passionate people also faintly bored.;-))
Has anyone on this list who HAS done ibogaine feel the same “Jesus is the only way” vibes? Does anyone here know anyone who converted to fundamentalist Christianity AFTER taking ibogaine?
Oh shit, I’m up past my bedtime again.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was Eric…is now Jesus and Ibogaine.

I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this list and that’s why you see me here.  I wholeheartedly believe in the Lord Jesus and that salvation is found only through Him.  With my apologies to Carrie, it’s not my intention to “spam” this list, offend anyone just for kicks or argue with the sole purpose of “proving myself right and everyone else wrong”.  Sincerely I tell you, I weep over those that are lost without Christ.  God/Christ are my life.  I have no life outside of Christ.  To some that may seem dismal, maybe even a bit sad.  But I voluntarily left the “world” so that I can more readily live for Christ.  I strive daily to have a faith that is pro-active…  Well, so much so that the line is blurred between what I strive for and! what I have become.  So, what I see, what Christ tells me through His Word the Bible.  Is that there are two choices in life.  God’s way, through Christ which leads to eternal life with God.  Or death and destruction in Hell.  I’m not forcing this on anyone.  I simply point to the way that leads to eternal life.  The way is Jesus Christ.  Those are His words, I only speak them because He commanded us believers to do so.  I know this causes some angry responses, Jesus said that it would.  But it must be done for there are those that desire to be saved, but just don’t know the way of escape yet.

You all don’t have to refer to me as Neuroskull (but ain’t it cool…!)  My name is Don.

P.S.  Oh.. my views… I wasn’t brought up in a “religious” household or anything like that.  It was quite bohemian actually.  I’d love to tell you more.. but, that would just end up changing the WHOLE focus of this thread… Some other time perhaps.

P.S.S To my friend that invited me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a nuisance, you can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but I leave it up to you.

In a message dated 7/16/2002 8:12:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

NeuroSkull,
Have you actually done ibogaine? Did you hold your current religious view before you took ibogaine if you have actually taken ibogaine?
Peace,
Preston

From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Zappa on Christianity
Date: July 17, 2002 at 12:17:28 AM EDT
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Note – there are many Christians in my family. None of them are hateful, nor
do they preach at the drop of a hat, or the mention of another religion.

This is a good thing, because otherwise we’d have a difficult time getting
along.

– jt


“There is no Hell, there is only France” – Frank Zappa

Dumb All Over – Frank Zappa

Whoever we are
Wherever we’re from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It’s gonna take a lot more
Than tryin’ to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
‘Cause we behave the same . . .
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near ‘n far
Dumb all over,
Black ‘n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religious fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin’ the Bible
Tells the story
‘N makes the details
Sound real gory
‘Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don’t believe in the book
We got over here

You can’t run a race
Without no feet
‘N pretty soon
There won’t be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won’t blow up
‘N disappear
It’ll just look ugly
For a thousand years . . . )

You can’t run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That’s great
Two legs ain’t bad
Unless there’s a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get Down!)
Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
The Good Book says:
“It gotta be that way!”
But their book says:
“REVENGE THE CRUSADES . . .
With whips ‘n chains
‘N hand grenades . . . ”
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says:
“There ain’t no other!”
Our God says
“It’s all okay!”
Our God says
“This is the way!”

It says in the book:
“Burn ‘n destroy . . .
‘N repent, ‘n redeem
‘N revenge, ‘n deploy
‘N rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
‘Cause they don’t go for what’s in the book
‘N that makes ’em BAD
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise
OUR GOD
(“Cause he can really take care of business!”)

And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It’s okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
‘Cause if we don’t do it,
We ain’t gwine up to hebbin!
(Depending on which book you’re using at the time . . . Can’t use theirs . .
. it don’t work . . . it’s all lies . . . Gotta use mine . . . )
Ain’t that right?
That’s what they say
Every night . . .
Every day . . .
Hey, we can’t really be dumb
If we’re just following God’s Orders
Hey, Let’s get serious . . .
God knows what he’s doin’ . . .
He wrote this book here
An’ the book says:
“He made us all to be just like Him,” so . . .
If we’re dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An’ maybe even a little ugly on the side)

DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE …

Heavenly Bank Account – Frank Zappa

And if these words you do not heed
Your pocketbook just kinda might recede
When some man comes along and claims a godly need
He will clean you out right through your tweed

That’s right, you asked for it, remember there is a big difference between
kneeling down and bending over . . .

He’s got twenty million dollars
In his Heavenly Bank Account . . .
All from those chumps who was
Born again
Oh yeah, oh yeah

He’s got seven limousines
And a private plane . . .
All for the use of his
Special Friends
Oh yeah, oh yeah

He’s got thousand-dollar suits
And a Wembley Tie . . .
Girls love to stroke it
While he’s on the phone
Oh yeah, oh yeah

At the House of Representatives
He’s a groovy guy . . .
When he Gives Thanks
He is not alone . . .

He is dealin’
He is really dealin’
IRS can’t determine
Where The Hook is

It is easy with the Bible
To pretend that
You’re in Show Biz
(And a-one, and a-two, and a . . . )

They won’t get him
They will never get him
For the naughty stuff
That he did

It is best in cases like this
To pretend that
You are stupid
(DOH . . . )

He’s got Presidential Help
All along the way
He says the grace
While the lawyers chew
Oh yeah
They sure do

And the Governors agree to say:
“He’s a lovely man!”
He makes it easier for
Them to screw
All of you . . .
Yes, that’s true!

‘Cause he helps put The Fear of God
In the Common Man
Snatchin’ up money
Everywhere he can
Oh yeah
Oh yeah

He’s got twenty million dollars
In his Heavenly Bank Account
You ain’t got nothin’, people
You ain’t got nothin’, people
You ain’t got nothin’, people
Thank the man . . . oh yeah

The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing – Frank Zappa

Some take the bible
For what it’s worth
When it says that the meek
Shall inherit the Earth
Well, I heard that some sheik
Has bought New Jersey last week
‘N you suckers ain’t gettin’ nothin’

Is Hare Rama really wrong
If you wander around
With a napkin on
With a bell on a stick
An’ your hair is all gone . . .
(The geek shall inherit nothin’)

You say yer life’s a bum deal
‘N yer up against the wall . . .
Well, people, you ain’t even got no kinda
Deal at all
‘Cause what they do
In Washington
They just takes care of NUMBER ONE
An’ NUMBER ONE ain’t YOU
You ain’t even NUMBER TWO

Those Jesus Freaks
Well, they’re friendly but
The shit they believe
Has got their minds all shut
An’ they don’t even care
When the church takes a cut
Ain’t it bleak when you got so much nothin’
(So whaddya do? Hey!)
Eat that pork
Eat that ham
Laugh till ya choke
On Billy Graham
Moses, Aaron ‘n Abraham . . .
They’re all a waste of time
‘N it’s your ass that’s on the line
(IT’S YOUR ASS THAT’S ON THE LINE)

Do what you wanna
Do what you will
Just don’t mess up
Your neighbor’s thrill
‘N when you pay the bill
Kindly leave a little tip
And help the next poor sucker
On his one way trip . . .
SOME TAKE THE BIBLE . . .
(Aw gimme a half a dozen for the hotel room!)

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was Eric…is now Jesus and Ibogaine.
Date: July 17, 2002 at 12:10:45 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Neuro,

I hear you and I am so sorry I misunderstood you.
There is a person in need you may be able to help,
just call your local suicide hotline or crisis
intervention hotline and the person who picks up the
phone will need to be saved (make sure you do this at
a public payphone – this way all the non-belivers can
see a miracle at work). You just talk for a while and
someone will be there shortly to pick you up so you
can go save them. Be patient, you may have to preach a
little louder than usual but I have faith in you,
don’t forget to tell them they are evil heathens. If
you get a Christian, tell they you got the wrong
number (well, you did) call back and get another
person, keep calling, eventually you will get the
“right” one.

Let us know how it works out.

Brett

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I
never will nor am I
against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend
invited me onto this list
and that’s why you see me here.  I wholeheartedly
believe in the Lord Jesus
and that salvation is found only through Him.  With
my apologies to Carrie,
it’s not my intention to “spam” this list, offend
anyone just for kicks or
argue with the sole purpose of “proving myself right
and everyone else
wrong”.  Sincerely I tell you, I weep over those
that are lost without
Christ.  God/Christ are my life.  I have no life
outside of Christ.  To some
that may seem dismal, maybe even a bit sad.  But I
voluntarily left the
“world” so that I can more readily live for Christ.
I strive daily to have a
faith that is pro-active…  Well, so much so that
the line is blurred
between what I strive for and what I have become.
So, what I see, what
Christ tells me through His Word the Bible.  Is that
there are two choices in
life.  God’s way, through Christ which leads to
eternal life with God.  Or
death and destruction in Hell.  I’m not forcing this
on anyone.  I simply
point to the way that leads to eternal life.  The
way is Jesus Christ.  Those
are His words, I only speak them because He
commanded us believers to do so.
I know this causes some angry responses, Jesus said
that it would.  But it
must be done for there are those that desire to be
saved, but just don’t know
the way of escape yet.

You all don’t have to refer to me as Neuroskull (but
ain’t it cool…!)  My
name is Don.

P.S.  Oh.. my views… I wasn’t brought up in a
“religious” household or
anything like that.  It was quite bohemian actually.
I’d love to tell you
more.. but, that would just end up changing the
WHOLE focus of this thread…
Some other time perhaps.

P.S.S To my friend that invited me onto this list.
If you think I’m being
too much of a nuisance, you can zap me off of here
if you want.  I’d like to
stay, but I leave it up to you.

In a message dated 7/16/2002 8:12:20 PM Pacific
Daylight Time,
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

NeuroSkull,
Have you actually done ibogaine? Did you hold
your current religious
view before you took ibogaine if you have actually
taken ibogaine?
Peace,
Preston

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] turned into a snarling animal
Date: July 16, 2002 at 11:55:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ha ha.. That’s a good question you ask.  But the way to tell the difference if it’s from God or not is by whether or not the words being spoken edify Christ.  She was saying things like “Christ is nothing”, “Buddha is much stronger” etc.

1 John 4:2-3
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Since it is the Holy Spirit which speaks through Christians when they speak in “Tongues” I could tell that this wasn’t the Holy Spirit speaking through her by the way she verbally attacked the person of Christ.  I was the only person that remained in the area once she began to bounce off the floor, everyone else fled outside in fear.  (It began in a restaurant and ended in a parking lot).

Would you like to hear this entire story from beginning to end?

Don

In a message dated 7/16/2002 8:22:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE WASN’T SPEAKING IN TONGUES? WHO INTERPRETED WHAT WAS GOING ON AND DECIDED IT WAS EVIL DEMONS? WHAT IF IT WAS GOD SPEAKING THROUGH HER AND YOU AND “FRIENDS” DECIDED IT WAS THE DEMONS? WHAT THEN? WOULDN’T YOU BE EMBARRASSED?
Peace,
Preston

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was Eric…is now Jesus and Ibogaine.
Date: July 16, 2002 at 11:44:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve never taken ibogaine, but that doesn’t mean I never will nor am I against the use of it for rehabilitation.  A friend invited me onto this list and that’s why you see me here.  I wholeheartedly believe in the Lord Jesus and that salvation is found only through Him.  With my apologies to Carrie, it’s not my intention to “spam” this list, offend anyone just for kicks or argue with the sole purpose of “proving myself right and everyone else wrong”.  Sincerely I tell you, I weep over those that are lost without Christ.  God/Christ are my life.  I have no life outside of Christ.  To some that may seem dismal, maybe even a bit sad.  But I voluntarily left the “world” so that I can more readily live for Christ.  I strive daily to have a faith that is pro-active…  Well, so much so that the line is blurred between what I strive for and what I have become.  So, what I see, what Christ tells me through His Word the Bible.  Is that there are two choices in life.  God’s way, through Christ which leads to eternal life with God.  Or death and destruction in Hell.  I’m not forcing this on anyone.  I simply point to the way that leads to eternal life.  The way is Jesus Christ.  Those are His words, I only speak them because He commanded us believers to do so.  I know this causes some angry responses, Jesus said that it would.  But it must be done for there are those that desire to be saved, but just don’t know the way of escape yet.

You all don’t have to refer to me as Neuroskull (but ain’t it cool…!)  My name is Don.

P.S.  Oh.. my views… I wasn’t brought up in a “religious” household or anything like that.  It was quite bohemian actually.  I’d love to tell you more.. but, that would just end up changing the WHOLE focus of this thread… Some other time perhaps.

P.S.S To my friend that invited me onto this list.  If you think I’m being too much of a nuisance, you can zap me off of here if you want.  I’d like to stay, but I leave it up to you.

In a message dated 7/16/2002 8:12:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

NeuroSkull,
Have you actually done ibogaine? Did you hold your current religious view before you took ibogaine if you have actually taken ibogaine?
Peace,
Preston

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 11:40:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness, that the man
of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for
every good work.

All scripture? Or is Christian scripture the only
scripture that exists (to you)? If not there are many
thousands of scriptures/books about other religions,
and GOD SAID “all scripture is given by inspiration of
god”, so they are cool, huh? Scripture is scripture,
truth is truth, unless you are a fundamentalist then
you can twist it around any way you see fit.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens
me.

Philippians 4:6-7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer

But how come you are anxious about converting
heathens?

Why don’t you pray on it (for a very long time)?

and supplication, with
thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to
God; and the peace of God,
which surpasses all understanding, will guard your
hearts and minds through
Christ Jesus.

I am so confused, you gotta get to god through Jesus
but then you got to pray to god and Jesus returns the
message? What if I jump on one leg and juggle 3 balls,
does that count?

I should add:

2 Tim 3:15
…the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you
wise for salvation through
faith which is in Christ Jesus

Carla, I invite you to visit my web page
http://geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html

and learn more about our Great God and Savior, Jesus
Christ!

God bless you.

Don

In a message dated 7/16/2002 3:34:20 PM Pacific
Daylight Time,
carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:

I’m starting to notice a pattern here. No matter
what
the question is the answer is jesus?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) r. zombie
Date: July 16, 2002 at 11:23:36 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>I personally found much
greater resonance with “I am a Nexus One, I want more Life Fucker I ain’t
done,” which in actuality is a lyric by Rob Zombie, and not authorized for
spiritual reintegration, religious use, and repeating it without written
consent quite possibly violates the DMCA.<

Or, it violates the PMRC codes. Tres Cool.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…

On [Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:42:38PM -0700], [Brett Calabrese] wrote:

| thanks to Shiva and that funny Oooooohhhhhmmmmm noise
| they make, real ominous.

<Raising hand> I like Shiva.  “He” is one of the few role models I have
left.  That whole entire ohmmmm, aum, omm making scenario, plus, also,
even, om nama shivaya, never worked out for me.  I personally found much
greater resonance with “I am a Nexus One, I want more Life Fucker I ain’t
done,” which in actuality is a lyric by Rob Zombie, and not authorized for
spiritual reintegration, religious use, and repeating it without written
consent quite possibly violates the DMCA.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] turned into a snarling animal
Date: July 16, 2002 at 11:14:13 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

NeuroSkull wrote >Now as for Buddhist chanting, meditation etc.  (This
> could be a very long
> story, but I’m not going to get into the entire
> details here).  You weren’t
> there the night a friend of my family became
> possessed by an evil spirit by
> chanting to Buddha.  You weren’t there when she
> transformed into a growling
> animal.  You weren’t there when she began to speak
> English, a language she
> did not know how to speak prior to this night.
> (She’s from Thailand).  You
> weren’t there when she became violent, foaming at
> the mouth, cursing and
> swearing at the mention of the name Jesus.  You
> weren’t there when she became
> rigid and pounded her head repeatedly into the
> cement, bloody, writhing, the
> thing within her screaming out for Buddha to save it
> from Jesus.  You weren’t
> there, I was. <

Ok, this sound interesting, and entirely NOT related to ibogaine, (to the best of my knowledge), but that said:

HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE WASN’T SPEAKING IN TONGUES? WHO INTERPRETED WHAT WAS GOING ON AND DECIDED IT WAS EVIL DEMONS? WHAT IF IT WAS GOD SPEAKING THROUGH HER AND YOU AND “FRIENDS” DECIDED IT WAS THE DEMONS? WHAT THEN? WOULDN’T YOU BE EMBARRASSED?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
> Brett,
>
> You and I are talking about two different Jesus’s.
> The Jesus I preach is the
> Jesus of the Bible.   The Jesus of the Bible is not
> tolerant of other
> religions.  The Jesus of the Bible said:
>
> “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes
> to the Father except
> through Me.”  (John 14:6)

Funny how everyone takes the bible to mean something
different. And then there was the “editing” but we
won’t talk about things like reincarnation,
Constantine the Great removed that in 325 AD, shhhhh.

>
> No doubt, He would be viewed as an intolerant bigot
> in the eyes of today’s
> society.  The God of the Bible is adamant when it
> comes to saving men’s souls
> that there is only ONE way to be saved, ONE path
> that leads to salvation.
> For me to condone or preach any other would be a
> tremendous affront to a Holy
> and Righteous God who gave His only Son so that we
> might be saved.  In fact,

Personally I don’t think GOD gives a shit, might even
be “up there” laughing and saying “what are they
thinking?”.

> if I preached any other way, I would be calling the
> Jesus that I believe in a
> liar.  For the Jesus I believe in has said that He
> is the only way.

Then have at it, go for it but you have NO CLUE what
my beliefs are, just that they are not yours and
therefore wrong.

>
> If I don’t stand up for what I believe is
> righteousness (that being the

So, go find someone who is challenging your beliefs
and go after them, that is what everyone should do,
hunt down everyone that doesn’t believe the same way
they do and try to convert them, TELL THEM. I didn’t
challenge your beliefs, you threw them in my face and
I threw them back with comments.

> Christ of the Bible) then what a hypocrite I would
> be.  If I truly believe

Let me guess, a bigger one than you are now?

> that Jesus is the only way to eternal life in
> Heaven, why would I stand idle
> and mute as I watch others who don’t know Jesus

I stand idle and watch people destroy their lives all
the time or were the people on this list in particular
distress that it requires being told they are less
than you are? And who said I didn’t know Jesus? What I
don’t want to know is the BS people like you try to
feed me with a JC label on it.

> march off down a path that I
> know and believe leads them to hell?  I can’t in
> good conscience do that.  So
> I speak up for Christ.  When I see someone standing
> at a fork in the road,

And if they say “sorry, I don’t do JC” then they are
not worthy of saving, don’t send them to an NA meeting
or try ibogaine, or do Yoga or Buddhism or ZEN or kite
flying. Is ibogaine the work of the Devil, I am sure
there are good Christians who think it is, in fact
about anyone you ask that doesn’t know about ibogaine
(except that it were illegal) would tell you it is bad
– before they investigated it, called contempt before
investigation. I went to “your” bible studies to be
open minded, learn new things (ha!), exchange ideas
(double HA!).

> one way is broad and tolerant leading to hell, the
> other narrow, intolerant
> and leading to heaven.   Then I say just as Jesus
> did:
>
> “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and
> broad is the way that
> leads to destruction, and there are many who go in
> by it. Because narrow is
> the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
> life, and there are few who
> find it”.
>

See, I understand that perfectly but doubt it is
anything close to your understanding.

> Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are
> saved?” And He said to
> them,  “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for
> many, I say to you, will
> seek to enter and will not be able.
>
> Jesus is “The Gate”.
>
> Now as for Buddhist chanting, meditation etc.  (This
> could be a very long
> story, but I’m not going to get into the entire
> details here).  You weren’t
> there the night a friend of my family became
> possessed by an evil spirit by
> chanting to Buddha.  You weren’t there when she
> transformed into a growling
> animal.  You weren’t there when she began to speak
> English, a language she
> did not know how to speak prior to this night.
> (She’s from Thailand).  You
> weren’t there when she became violent, foaming at
> the mouth, cursing and
> swearing at the mention of the name Jesus.  You
> weren’t there when she became
> rigid and pounded her head repeatedly into the
> cement, bloody, writhing, the
> thing within her screaming out for Buddha to save it
> from Jesus.  You weren’t
> there, I was.

So believe in whatever the fuck you want to believe
in, I don’t care, it works for you, have at it. I have
my “stories” too, you care less about them than I do
of yours, yours is a one way street, your way and no
other way.

>
> Stay away from these heathen religions.  Yes, you

Then you had better stay away from me, evil might
spill upon you.

> may find “god”.  You may
> even become “spirit filled”.  But it won’t be the
> God of all creation that
> you find, and it won’t be His Holy Spirit that fills
> you.
>

Uh huh, it will be the fake god, the every god but
your god, not your exclusive god, for that I need to
join your club.

> Turn to Jesus, the one true way to the one true God.
>

How is this?

Go f..k yourself you obnoxious, arrogant bigot. That
is my effort at “spreading the word”, to see people at
the Y in the road, on that path and letting them know
it is the path to hell… Nothing personal, you just
don’t believe as I believe so therefore you are
unenlightened and I shouldn’t expect any more from an
ignorant non-believer as you – sound nice doesn’t it?
It is people like you who fuck up this place we call
earth, who spread fear and hate and it isn’t because
you are Christian, it is because you are you. By the
way, just spoke to GOD again, Kev is right, you will
meet up with us (when you grow up) down the road.

So, now every time you “preach” to me, I will go find
a good Christian board and go “Preach” to them, maybe
email their reaction to you, why should I react any
differently. Hummm, maybe I can plant a few “seeds”…
A little hedonism, some devil worship, maybe some
Muslum literature… I know (OH NO!) I will tell them
about YOGA, you got your meditation, your Sanscrit
thanks to Shiva and that funny Oooooohhhhhmmmmm noise
they make, real ominous.

B-

> Neuroskull
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2002 6:16:03 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> bcalabrese@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > Excuse me!
> >
> > — NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
> > > I will add, stay away from Buddhism and other
> such
> > > heathen religions.
> >
> > Just goes to show how ignorant, prejudice and
> bigoted
> > some “good Christians” can be.
> >
> > So, tell me (bigot), what do you know (besides
> > nothing) about these “other such heathen
> religions”?
> > The work of the devil, huh? Yeah, that Dali Lama,
> a
> > real heathen for sure… definitely an evil one.
> >
> > > Instead seek the true God through a relationship
> > > with Jesus Christ.  Not
> >
> > Then how come you have no seem to have no clue
> about
> > what Jesus was about? The love, the acceptance,
> > tolerance, forgot that part? What is this honor
> thy
> > neighbor as long as he believe what you tell him
> to
> > believe in?
> >
> > > religion, relationship.  For more information.
> > > Visit here:
> > > http://www.geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html
> >
> > Not in this lifetime. Been there, done that, gave
> it a
> > chance, been to bible study and don’t like hateful
> > people, people spreading fear and mistrust,
> gossip,
> > hate, anger.
> >
> > >
> > > Neuroskull
> > > (Have seen first hand those that have become
> > > possessed by evil spirits due to
> > > buddhist meditation & chanting).
> >
> > Ah, but the millions of people who have been
> killed by
> > good Christians “in the name of GOD”, that is OK
> but
> > meditation and chanting is evil, got it.
> >
> > Maybe if we all accepted each other and our
> beliefs,
> > respected each other and didn’t pull this “my
> religion
> > is better than your religion” crap people would
> get
> > along better, ya think? So, the YOGA I do is evil
> huh,
> > you know about that Shiva OR that I was born
> Jewish,
> > that must be bad too since we chant and don’t pray
> to
> > your JC, I even do some Jewish Mysticism
> (Kabbala),
> > light insense, do Reiki – or am I taking JC’s job
> by
> > healing (with the hands), must be the work of the
> > devil (been told that by good Christians), right?
> > Seems that to you Love is evil.
> >
> > I actually have nothing wrong with JC or any
> belief of
> > love and truth, I do have a problem with people
> who
> > tell me they have the one true belief and the way
> put
> > other people down.
> >
> > Have fun with your fear based beliefs (which IMO
> has
> > nothing to do with JC), watch out GOD is going to
> get
> > you, he is watching your every move, the devil is
> > waiting too, just for you so be careful, one slip
> and
> > it hell for sure.
> >
> > Brett
> >
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] was Eric…is now Jesus and Ibogaine.
Date: July 16, 2002 at 11:03:59 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brett wrote >Is ibogaine the work of the Devil, I am sure
there are good Christians who think it is, in fact
about anyone you ask that doesn’t know about ibogaine
(except that it were illegal) would tell you it is bad
– before they investigated it, called contempt before
investigation. I went to “your” bible studies to be
open minded, learn new things (ha!), exchange ideas
(double HA!).<

NeuroSkull,
Have you actually done ibogaine? Did you hold your current religious view before you took ibogaine if you have actually taken ibogaine?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
> Brett,
>
> You and I are talking about two different Jesus’s.
> The Jesus I preach is the
> Jesus of the Bible.   The Jesus of the Bible is not
> tolerant of other
> religions.  The Jesus of the Bible said:
>
> “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes
> to the Father except
> through Me.”  (John 14:6)

Funny how everyone takes the bible to mean something
different. And then there was the “editing” but we
won’t talk about things like reincarnation,
Constantine the Great removed that in 325 AD, shhhhh.

>
> No doubt, He would be viewed as an intolerant bigot
> in the eyes of today’s
> society.  The God of the Bible is adamant when it
> comes to saving men’s souls
> that there is only ONE way to be saved, ONE path
> that leads to salvation.
> For me to condone or preach any other would be a
> tremendous affront to a Holy
> and Righteous God who gave His only Son so that we
> might be saved.  In fact,

Personally I don’t think GOD gives a shit, might even
be “up there” laughing and saying “what are they
thinking?”.

> if I preached any other way, I would be calling the
> Jesus that I believe in a
> liar.  For the Jesus I believe in has said that He
> is the only way.

Then have at it, go for it but you have NO CLUE what
my beliefs are, just that they are not yours and
therefore wrong.

>
> If I don’t stand up for what I believe is
> righteousness (that being the

So, go find someone who is challenging your beliefs
and go after them, that is what everyone should do,
hunt down everyone that doesn’t believe the same way
they do and try to convert them, TELL THEM. I didn’t
challenge your beliefs, you threw them in my face and
I threw them back with comments.

> Christ of the Bible) then what a hypocrite I would
> be.  If I truly believe

Let me guess, a bigger one than you are now?

> that Jesus is the only way to eternal life in
> Heaven, why would I stand idle
> and mute as I watch others who don’t know Jesus

I stand idle and watch people destroy their lives all
the time or were the people on this list in particular
distress that it requires being told they are less
than you are? And who said I didn’t know Jesus? What I
don’t want to know is the BS people like you try to
feed me with a JC label on it.

> march off down a path that I
> know and believe leads them to hell?  I can’t in
> good conscience do that.  So
> I speak up for Christ.  When I see someone standing
> at a fork in the road,

And if they say “sorry, I don’t do JC” then they are
not worthy of saving, don’t send them to an NA meeting
or try ibogaine, or do Yoga or Buddhism or ZEN or kite
flying. Is ibogaine the work of the Devil, I am sure
there are good Christians who think it is, in fact
about anyone you ask that doesn’t know about ibogaine
(except that it were illegal) would tell you it is bad
– before they investigated it, called contempt before
investigation. I went to “your” bible studies to be
open minded, learn new things (ha!), exchange ideas
(double HA!).

> one way is broad and tolerant leading to hell, the
> other narrow, intolerant
> and leading to heaven.   Then I say just as Jesus
> did:
>
> “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and
> broad is the way that
> leads to destruction, and there are many who go in
> by it. Because narrow is
> the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
> life, and there are few who
> find it”.
>

See, I understand that perfectly but doubt it is
anything close to your understanding.

> Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are
> saved?” And He said to
> them,  “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for
> many, I say to you, will
> seek to enter and will not be able.
>
> Jesus is “The Gate”.
>
> Now as for Buddhist chanting, meditation etc.  (This
> could be a very long
> story, but I’m not going to get into the entire
> details here).  You weren’t
> there the night a friend of my family became
> possessed by an evil spirit by
> chanting to Buddha.  You weren’t there when she
> transformed into a growling
> animal.  You weren’t there when she began to speak
> English, a language she
> did not know how to speak prior to this night.
> (She’s from Thailand).  You
> weren’t there when she became violent, foaming at
> the mouth, cursing and
> swearing at the mention of the name Jesus.  You
> weren’t there when she became
> rigid and pounded her head repeatedly into the
> cement, bloody, writhing, the
> thing within her screaming out for Buddha to save it
> from Jesus.  You weren’t
> there, I was.

So believe in whatever the fuck you want to believe
in, I don’t care, it works for you, have at it. I have
my “stories” too, you care less about them than I do
of yours, yours is a one way street, your way and no
other way.

>
> Stay away from these heathen religions.  Yes, you

Then you had better stay away from me, evil might
spill upon you.

> may find “god”.  You may
> even become “spirit filled”.  But it won’t be the
> God of all creation that
> you find, and it won’t be His Holy Spirit that fills
> you.
>

Uh huh, it will be the fake god, the every god but
your god, not your exclusive god, for that I need to
join your club.

> Turn to Jesus, the one true way to the one true God.
>

How is this?

Go f..k yourself you obnoxious, arrogant bigot. That
is my effort at “spreading the word”, to see people at
the Y in the road, on that path and letting them know
it is the path to hell… Nothing personal, you just
don’t believe as I believe so therefore you are
unenlightened and I shouldn’t expect any more from an
ignorant non-believer as you – sound nice doesn’t it?
It is people like you who fuck up this place we call
earth, who spread fear and hate and it isn’t because
you are Christian, it is because you are you. By the
way, just spoke to GOD again, Kev is right, you will
meet up with us (when you grow up) down the road.

So, now every time you “preach” to me, I will go find
a good Christian board and go “Preach” to them, maybe
email their reaction to you, why should I react any
differently. Hummm, maybe I can plant a few “seeds”…
A little hedonism, some devil worship, maybe some
Muslum literature… I know (OH NO!) I will tell them
about YOGA, you got your meditation, your Sanscrit
thanks to Shiva and that funny Oooooohhhhhmmmmm noise
they make, real ominous.

B-

> Neuroskull
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2002 6:16:03 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> bcalabrese@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > Excuse me!
> >
> > — NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
> > > I will add, stay away from Buddhism and other
> such
> > > heathen religions.
> >
> > Just goes to show how ignorant, prejudice and
> bigoted
> > some “good Christians” can be.
> >
> > So, tell me (bigot), what do you know (besides
> > nothing) about these “other such heathen
> religions”?
> > The work of the devil, huh? Yeah, that Dali Lama,
> a
> > real heathen for sure… definitely an evil one.
> >
> > > Instead seek the true God through a relationship
> > > with Jesus Christ.  Not
> >
> > Then how come you have no seem to have no clue
> about
> > what Jesus was about? The love, the acceptance,
> > tolerance, forgot that part? What is this honor
> thy
> > neighbor as long as he believe what you tell him
> to
> > believe in?
> >
> > > religion, relationship.  For more information.
> > > Visit here:
> > > http://www.geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html
> >
> > Not in this lifetime. Been there, done that, gave
> it a
> > chance, been to bible study and don’t like hateful
> > people, people spreading fear and mistrust,
> gossip,
> > hate, anger.
> >
> > >
> > > Neuroskull
> > > (Have seen first hand those that have become
> > > possessed by evil spirits due to
> > > buddhist meditation & chanting).
> >
> > Ah, but the millions of people who have been
> killed by
> > good Christians “in the name of GOD”, that is OK
> but
> > meditation and chanting is evil, got it.
> >
> > Maybe if we all accepted each other and our
> beliefs,
> > respected each other and didn’t pull this “my
> religion
> > is better than your religion” crap people would
> get
> > along better, ya think? So, the YOGA I do is evil
> huh,
> > you know about that Shiva OR that I was born
> Jewish,
> > that must be bad too since we chant and don’t pray
> to
> > your JC, I even do some Jewish Mysticism
> (Kabbala),
> > light insense, do Reiki – or am I taking JC’s job
> by
> > healing (with the hands), must be the work of the
> > devil (been told that by good Christians), right?
> > Seems that to you Love is evil.
> >
> > I actually have nothing wrong with JC or any
> belief of
> > love and truth, I do have a problem with people
> who
> > tell me they have the one true belief and the way
> put
> > other people down.
> >
> > Have fun with your fear based beliefs (which IMO
> has
> > nothing to do with JC), watch out GOD is going to
> get
> > you, he is watching your every move, the devil is
> > waiting too, just for you so be careful, one slip
> and
> > it hell for sure.
> >
> > Brett
> >
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 7:44:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OMG 1000000000 msgs in a day and a half.

Neuroskull this is a polite request but could you
please stop doing that? This really isn’t the bible
study list, you have made everyone here aware that you
like jesus a whole lot and wish everyone would listen
to his words but no matter how off topic it gets here,
it usually relates to ibogaine or drug addiction or
people who are very involved with one or the other.
I’m sure jesus relates to everything too but please
stop spamming with bible quotes ok?

We have all heard your message, we can all go out on
the net and search for more jesus any time we feel the
need. If anyone ever needs any guidance on where to
start we know you are the one to ask.

-carrie

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
Carla,

Jesus is the answer to a great many questions!  And
since Jesus is the Word
of God, and the Word of God is found in the Bible:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness, that the man
of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for
every good work.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens
me.

Philippians 4:6-7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer
and supplication, with
thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to
God; and the peace of God,
which surpasses all understanding, will guard your
hearts and minds through
Christ Jesus.

I should add:

2 Tim 3:15
…the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you
wise for salvation through
faith which is in Christ Jesus

Carla, I invite you to visit my web page
http://geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html

and learn more about our Great God and Savior, Jesus
Christ!

God bless you.

Don

In a message dated 7/16/2002 3:34:20 PM Pacific
Daylight Time,
carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:

I’m starting to notice a pattern here. No matter
what
the question is the answer is jesus?

__________________________________________________
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From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 7:22:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla,

Jesus is the answer to a great many questions!  And since Jesus is the Word of God, and the Word of God is found in the Bible:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Philippians 4:6-7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I should add:

2 Tim 3:15
…the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus

Carla, I invite you to visit my web page http://geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html

and learn more about our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!

God bless you.

Don

In a message dated 7/16/2002 3:34:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:

I’m starting to notice a pattern here. No matter what
the question is the answer is jesus?

Carla B

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mash on Ibogaine in the Wall Street Journal
Date: July 16, 2002 at 6:45:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Dana I just read it. Cool, so ibogaine got
mentioned.

Carla B

Ibogaine got the last word.

Dana/cnw

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Mash on Ibogaine in the Wall Street Journal
Date: July 16, 2002 at 6:35:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Dana I just read it. Cool, so ibogaine got
mentioned.

Carla B

— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Dana? What are you talking about, what article,
what
does it say?

Carla B

The Ibogaine part is at the end of the article–

Pubdate: Mon, 15 Jul 2002
Source: Wall Street Journal (US)
Copyright: 2002 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
Contact: wsj.ltrs@wsj.com
Website: http://www.wsj.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/487
Author: Gautam Naik

AN ARRAY OF NEW DRUGS SHOWS PROMISE IN FIGHTING
ADDICTIONS

Could people be inoculated against drug addictions
the way they can against
some infectious diseases?

It may be possible. Despite disappointing past
efforts to treat addictions
with medicine, recent research indicates the
approach has merit. In one
study, about 50 smokers in Belgium were injected
with an unusual drug ,
code-named TA-NIC. After taking as many as five
doses in 10 weeks, two of
the study’s subjects quit smoking. Several others
reported less desire to
smoke, says Xenova PLC, the drug’s British maker.

The experimental drug is one of the first attempts
to design an antismoking
vaccine. By producing antibodies in the user’s
blood, it prevents nicotine
molecules from entering the brain and triggering a
“high.” Denied such
pleasure, a smoker theoretically has less incentive
to light up again.

Vaccines are just one of several new medical
approaches to fight the
escalating problem of addiction.

URL:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1322.a06.html

——————————

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 6:33:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m starting to notice a pattern here. No matter what
the question is the answer is jesus?

Carla B

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
Then you my friend want Jesus Christ!  For Jesus
Christ said:

John 10:10
I have come that they may have life, and that they
may have it more
abundantly.

In a message dated 7/16/2002 1:22:06 PM Pacific
Daylight Time,
digital@phantom.com writes:

I personally found much
greater resonance with “I am a Nexus One, I want
more Life Fucker I ain’t
done,” which in actuality is a lyric by Rob
Zombie, and not authorized for
spiritual reintegration, religious use, and
repeating it without written

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 4:30:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Then you my friend want Jesus Christ!  For Jesus Christ said:

John 10:10
I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

In a message dated 7/16/2002 1:22:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, digital@phantom.com writes:

I personally found much
greater resonance with “I am a Nexus One, I want more Life Fucker I ain’t
done,” which in actuality is a lyric by Rob Zombie, and not authorized for
spiritual reintegration, religious use, and repeating it without written
consent quite possibly violates the DMCA.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 4:13:43 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 12:42:38PM -0700], [Brett Calabrese] wrote:

| thanks to Shiva and that funny Oooooohhhhhmmmmm noise
| they make, real ominous.

<Raising hand> I like Shiva.  “He” is one of the few role models I have
left.  That whole entire ohmmmm, aum, omm making scenario, plus, also,
even, om nama shivaya, never worked out for me.  I personally found much
greater resonance with “I am a Nexus One, I want more Life Fucker I ain’t
done,” which in actuality is a lyric by Rob Zombie, and not authorized for
spiritual reintegration, religious use, and repeating it without written
consent quite possibly violates the DMCA.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] SMART Link on Mindvox please?
Date: July 16, 2002 at 3:53:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rebecca, you’re dyslexic, Mindvox is at 25,980. That is awesome man. I had no idea! I’ve never used alexa. What you need to do so bad is add a section under Links for music! I do not believe you’ve let that slide. In that section you must add a banner for MLB!

Awesome, you are past the 12 step groupies. Right on man, right on!

It’s not all good news, High Times is past you hanging at 15,000. Course they have a magazine, may be a few people reading that and all.

Curtis

On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 Rebecca Silverman wrote :

Hi Patrick,

A request to at least think about please? I know you never reply to mail but would you consider putting in a link for SMART? The program agrees with so many things that you have to say and it wouldn’t hurt you to add it to harm reduction.

Also if you are going to be adding the whole rave scene from South Beach, would you consider adding a happenings area where we can list meetings (not NA meetings!) please?

I know your reply is usually ‘it’s a free world, go start your own web site and see if you can find 10 people who care’ and probably I can’t! But I’d love to add the updates and at least the banner to mindvox please. You do run everything on ibogaine, which some people bitch about some of the time 🙂 Please add smart.

I know how to use alexa too, please do not tell me to throw it somewhere else, it’s just a little banner. Ok? Please? 🙂 You have more people hitting this crazy thing (meant in a good way!) and reading what you say, then nearly anything else I’ve ever used online, it would not hurt for some of them to find smart in your links.

Mindvox 29,508
Phantom I can’t get it to read anymore, but you have two domains hooked to mindvox both in the top 50,000

AA 50,201
NA 79,212
SMART 257,568
SMART Florida 975,211
DRCNET 171,235
Herointimes 171,600
MAPS 108,645

_________________________________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bush to set up shadow government
Date: July 16, 2002 at 3:46:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Have you spied on your neighbors lately? Maybe they’re communists too!

Curtis

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html

_________________________________________________________
There is always a better job for you at Monsterindia.com.
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 3:42:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
Brett,

You and I are talking about two different Jesus’s.
The Jesus I preach is the
Jesus of the Bible.   The Jesus of the Bible is not
tolerant of other
religions.  The Jesus of the Bible said:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes
to the Father except
through Me.”  (John 14:6)

Funny how everyone takes the bible to mean something
different. And then there was the “editing” but we
won’t talk about things like reincarnation,
Constantine the Great removed that in 325 AD, shhhhh.

No doubt, He would be viewed as an intolerant bigot
in the eyes of today’s
society.  The God of the Bible is adamant when it
comes to saving men’s souls
that there is only ONE way to be saved, ONE path
that leads to salvation.
For me to condone or preach any other would be a
tremendous affront to a Holy
and Righteous God who gave His only Son so that we
might be saved.  In fact,

Personally I don’t think GOD gives a shit, might even
be “up there” laughing and saying “what are they
thinking?”.

if I preached any other way, I would be calling the
Jesus that I believe in a
liar.  For the Jesus I believe in has said that He
is the only way.

Then have at it, go for it but you have NO CLUE what
my beliefs are, just that they are not yours and
therefore wrong.

If I don’t stand up for what I believe is
righteousness (that being the

So, go find someone who is challenging your beliefs
and go after them, that is what everyone should do,
hunt down everyone that doesn’t believe the same way
they do and try to convert them, TELL THEM. I didn’t
challenge your beliefs, you threw them in my face and
I threw them back with comments.

Christ of the Bible) then what a hypocrite I would
be.  If I truly believe

Let me guess, a bigger one than you are now?

that Jesus is the only way to eternal life in
Heaven, why would I stand idle
and mute as I watch others who don’t know Jesus

I stand idle and watch people destroy their lives all
the time or were the people on this list in particular
distress that it requires being told they are less
than you are? And who said I didn’t know Jesus? What I
don’t want to know is the BS people like you try to
feed me with a JC label on it.

march off down a path that I
know and believe leads them to hell?  I can’t in
good conscience do that.  So
I speak up for Christ.  When I see someone standing
at a fork in the road,

And if they say “sorry, I don’t do JC” then they are
not worthy of saving, don’t send them to an NA meeting
or try ibogaine, or do Yoga or Buddhism or ZEN or kite
flying. Is ibogaine the work of the Devil, I am sure
there are good Christians who think it is, in fact
about anyone you ask that doesn’t know about ibogaine
(except that it were illegal) would tell you it is bad
– before they investigated it, called contempt before
investigation. I went to “your” bible studies to be
open minded, learn new things (ha!), exchange ideas
(double HA!).

one way is broad and tolerant leading to hell, the
other narrow, intolerant
and leading to heaven.   Then I say just as Jesus
did:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and
broad is the way that
leads to destruction, and there are many who go in
by it. Because narrow is
the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
life, and there are few who
find it”.

See, I understand that perfectly but doubt it is
anything close to your understanding.

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are
saved?” And He said to
them,  “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for
many, I say to you, will
seek to enter and will not be able.

Jesus is “The Gate”.

Now as for Buddhist chanting, meditation etc.  (This
could be a very long
story, but I’m not going to get into the entire
details here).  You weren’t
there the night a friend of my family became
possessed by an evil spirit by
chanting to Buddha.  You weren’t there when she
transformed into a growling
animal.  You weren’t there when she began to speak
English, a language she
did not know how to speak prior to this night.
(She’s from Thailand).  You
weren’t there when she became violent, foaming at
the mouth, cursing and
swearing at the mention of the name Jesus.  You
weren’t there when she became
rigid and pounded her head repeatedly into the
cement, bloody, writhing, the
thing within her screaming out for Buddha to save it
from Jesus.  You weren’t
there, I was.

So believe in whatever the fuck you want to believe
in, I don’t care, it works for you, have at it. I have
my “stories” too, you care less about them than I do
of yours, yours is a one way street, your way and no
other way.

Stay away from these heathen religions.  Yes, you

Then you had better stay away from me, evil might
spill upon you.

may find “god”.  You may
even become “spirit filled”.  But it won’t be the
God of all creation that
you find, and it won’t be His Holy Spirit that fills
you.

Uh huh, it will be the fake god, the every god but
your god, not your exclusive god, for that I need to
join your club.

Turn to Jesus, the one true way to the one true God.

How is this?

Go f..k yourself you obnoxious, arrogant bigot. That
is my effort at “spreading the word”, to see people at
the Y in the road, on that path and letting them know
it is the path to hell… Nothing personal, you just
don’t believe as I believe so therefore you are
unenlightened and I shouldn’t expect any more from an
ignorant non-believer as you – sound nice doesn’t it?
It is people like you who fuck up this place we call
earth, who spread fear and hate and it isn’t because
you are Christian, it is because you are you. By the
way, just spoke to GOD again, Kev is right, you will
meet up with us (when you grow up) down the road.

So, now every time you “preach” to me, I will go find
a good Christian board and go “Preach” to them, maybe
email their reaction to you, why should I react any
differently. Hummm, maybe I can plant a few “seeds”…
A little hedonism, some devil worship, maybe some
Muslum literature… I know (OH NO!) I will tell them
about YOGA, you got your meditation, your Sanscrit
thanks to Shiva and that funny Oooooohhhhhmmmmm noise
they make, real ominous.

B-

Neuroskull

In a message dated 7/16/2002 6:16:03 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
bcalabrese@yahoo.com writes:

Excuse me!

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
I will add, stay away from Buddhism and other
such
heathen religions.

Just goes to show how ignorant, prejudice and
bigoted
some “good Christians” can be.

So, tell me (bigot), what do you know (besides
nothing) about these “other such heathen
religions”?
The work of the devil, huh? Yeah, that Dali Lama,
a
real heathen for sure… definitely an evil one.

Instead seek the true God through a relationship
with Jesus Christ.  Not

Then how come you have no seem to have no clue
about
what Jesus was about? The love, the acceptance,
tolerance, forgot that part? What is this honor
thy
neighbor as long as he believe what you tell him
to
believe in?

religion, relationship.  For more information.
Visit here:
http://www.geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html

Not in this lifetime. Been there, done that, gave
it a
chance, been to bible study and don’t like hateful
people, people spreading fear and mistrust,
gossip,
hate, anger.

Neuroskull
(Have seen first hand those that have become
possessed by evil spirits due to
buddhist meditation & chanting).

Ah, but the millions of people who have been
killed by
good Christians “in the name of GOD”, that is OK
but
meditation and chanting is evil, got it.

Maybe if we all accepted each other and our
beliefs,
respected each other and didn’t pull this “my
religion
is better than your religion” crap people would
get
along better, ya think? So, the YOGA I do is evil
huh,
you know about that Shiva OR that I was born
Jewish,
that must be bad too since we chant and don’t pray
to
your JC, I even do some Jewish Mysticism
(Kabbala),
light insense, do Reiki – or am I taking JC’s job
by
healing (with the hands), must be the work of the
devil (been told that by good Christians), right?
Seems that to you Love is evil.

I actually have nothing wrong with JC or any
belief of
love and truth, I do have a problem with people
who
tell me they have the one true belief and the way
put
other people down.

Have fun with your fear based beliefs (which IMO
has
nothing to do with JC), watch out GOD is going to
get
you, he is watching your every move, the devil is
waiting too, just for you so be careful, one slip
and
it hell for sure.

Brett

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this thro ugh, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 3:40:51 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What sort of Church is it? I mean what’s the denomination, (whatever)
called?

I was married in a United Reform Church by a gay preacher 13 yrs ago

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 16 July 2002 20:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

I do understand.  I attend a Church where I am…or so I have been told
by the Pastors…the only one they know in their congregation that holds
to the “liberal” beliefs that I do.  I have knocked heads so many times
with people that I’ve just learned not to take our differences so
seriously.  I just counter with data, fully expecting them to ignore the
facts.  The only thing that can counter their ignorance is information,
presented in such a way as to pique their interest.  Arguing is
fruitless.  They’re right, after all.  I think the whole drug war is
just a basic ignorance thing.  Most folks just don’t know much about
drugs and addiction.  It’s just a sin and it’s a crime…and those
people need to be put in jail.  that’s about as far as they think about
the whole issue.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 07/16/02 03:26PM >>>
Mmh, one of my brothers is a bit of a fundamentalist; we love each
other, so
over the years, we’ve learnt not to go too deeply into it – the bible
I
think I mean!

U got a great sense of humour

I’m not partial to people who say one thing and act another; Right
wing
fundamentalist (as u say) Christians have supported the drug war for
eons
and it has killed too many of our peers. And yes, they are responsible
for
their behaviour, but so is the state responsible 4 murder. Simple as
that –
ultimately. (Guess I can get pretty fundamentalist myself on days when
I’ve
had to bury junky friends) Sorry, some days are just 2222222 much

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 16 July 2002 20:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

Reminds me of an EXTREMELY fundamentalist friend of mine.  We had
lunch
and dropped into Starbucks (the devil’s brew for sure).  I talked
about
my spiritual journey over the period of a year or so, whereupon he
spent
an hour or two pleading for my damned soul, telling me how “the Bible
says…” and generally seeming unable to truly hear what I was saying
and the reasons for my changes in belief (and being defined by him as
“a
backslidden unbeliever”).  In the end, he remained true to his
FUNDAMENTALS.  He was driving, so after we finished our “chat”, I
climbed into the passenger side and he proceeded to pull straight into
oncoming traffic heading straight for my side. Almost got me KILLED.
“Damn!  …you gotta watch that shit!” I said.  “I’m the one going to
hell here.” 🙂  He laughed his ass off.  He’s still an extremely right
wing fundamentalist.  We still get along great.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 07/16/02 02:51PM >>>
Woh Brett

Wher do you get the timne to write such long articulate, informed
e-mails.

I’m afraid I only have one thing to say on this: FUNDAMENTALISM KILLS

ALL
FUNDAMENTALISM THAT IS ESTABLISED AND MONIED.
Let’s see the Islamic type, the drug war type – anyone wanna add
anymore?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 16 July 2002 19:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Perhaps it boils down to this…Brett is intolerant
with intolerant
people

Pretty much.

and Neuroskull has found a belief position
that works at this
particular time.

Everything “works”. When I was into religion, it
worked and when I did drugs, they worked too, depends
on at what.

Having walked a similar road, the
beliefs and opinions
stated by Neuroskull are pretty consistent with the
evangelical/fundamentalist Christian perspective.

That they are better than everyone else and you should
join their club so you can be special to, Jesus loves
you yes he does and if you don’t believe in him YOU
WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER. I got it, I got it.

Historical
Christianity holds to a certain unchanging system of
thought.

That they are right and you are wrong.

Encouraging others to “stay away from Buddhism and
other such heathen
religions” is consistent with the belief system.

It is also called “good marketing”. The more fear, the
more believers who need to be “saved”,  more believers
the more money and power I will have – got it, very
simple.

Likewise, the term
“heathen” refers to pretty much any “uncivilized”
religion that doesn’t
recognize the God of the Bible, so the term used is
appropriate.

You forgot “irreligous and unenlightened” in that
definition… Also, “the unconverted”, which means
everyone else but them. I could argue that a good
number of “good Christians” (or whoever) are
unenlightened  (uncivilized and a whole buch of other
words) and therfore heathens or is it that once you
got the “I believe in the God of the bible” you pass
GO, nothing else matters? Maybe we will grow past such
“appropriate” terms like we got past using the word
nigger.

Guess I just know too many heathens that believe it is
the same GOD that they believe in, they just call it
by another name, written another language and
culture/understanding and maybe have their own “GREAT
FLOOD” story and rules about how to behave… Many
people who I know practice various beliefs in
different ways but they don’t go around telling people
they practice evil because of their belief is
something non-Christian or Non-muslum or non-jewish
and there are people out there who think exactly the
opposite. I know people who think it is the be-all and
end-all to get into Amway and will toot and holler
Amway is the way and the only way. It is “those
people” that bother me, the ones that think I should
do it their way cause it is the only way and I am an
unlightened, irreligous, ignorant (or whatever) person
if I don’t… and don’t forget they are better than
me (cause I am too stupid to understand). Now you
don’t see me preaching to narrow minded, ignorant,
bigots we will call Christians (just for argument)
that they are unbelievers, heathens, going to hell
unless they believe as I believe, do as I do and that
their methods are the work of the Devil, now do you?
That wouldn’t be nice now would it? So why should I
“tolerate” listening to them without sharing my
opinion? Who knows, maybe at least they will become
“enlightened” to the fact that it really pisses some
people off (and chases prospective good Christians
away).

Expressing a belief or opinion that holds to
absolutes, does NOT
necessarily make a person intolerant.  If they made

Funny how I was just reading a post by a good
Christian who was talking about the Bible saying “Love
thy neighbor”, didn’t say anything about tolerate
him…

<necessarily make a person intolerant>

No, it doesn’t but the belief or opinion might.
In any case your definition of tolerate is somewhat
narrower than mine (and the one in the dictionary).

it a point to drown
you out and stifle YOUR expression, that would be

How about tolerate “To recognize and respect (the
rights, beliefs, or practices of others)”. Right, they
“recognize and respect” those heathen beliefs – that
is exactly how it sounds to me…

Intolerant

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions,
practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those
different from oneself, especially those of a
different racial, ethnic, or social background

It certainly sounds like they excluded me from their
GOD club (they have an exclusive).

When you call someones belief or religious practice
“evil” that isn’t tolerance. When you think they are
less than you are because where they are from, the
color of their skin or their beliefs, that is bigotry.
Most of the “tolerance” I have run across by
fundamentalists is they don’t want to hear it, there
is no “opinion” there is only their way.

intolerant.  Likewise,
if you were discriminated against due to your
religious beliefs, that
would be intolerant.  Jesus was tolerant, but he

Oh and you think I can go off and marry one of their
daughters without a squeel or take a job over a good
Christian (and I am specifically talking about people
who think they are better than other groups because of
their beliefs/color/whatever)

still called the
religious leaders of the day a brood of vipers.

Nothing changes…

He
was also willing to
wash feet and eat with the rabble.

Good judge of character.

Brett

In certain matters I hold to absolutes and will
express them as so, but
I’ll listen attentively to what you say.  I might
even argue against
what you believe.  You might actually help me change
some of my own
beliefs.  Whatever the case, we can still go down to
the deli and break
bread together.  Perhaps this is Neuroskull’s
position as well. Perhaps
not.  He’ll catch up somewhere down the road.
So
kiss and make up.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

BEGIN:VCARD
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N:Venglarcik;Rick
TITLE:Therapist I
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2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
Hampton, VA  23666
END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 3:34:27 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I do understand.  I attend a Church where I am…or so I have been told
by the Pastors…the only one they know in their congregation that holds
to the “liberal” beliefs that I do.  I have knocked heads so many times
with people that I’ve just learned not to take our differences so
seriously.  I just counter with data, fully expecting them to ignore the
facts.  The only thing that can counter their ignorance is information,
presented in such a way as to pique their interest.  Arguing is
fruitless.  They’re right, after all.  I think the whole drug war is
just a basic ignorance thing.  Most folks just don’t know much about
drugs and addiction.  It’s just a sin and it’s a crime…and those
people need to be put in jail.  that’s about as far as they think about
the whole issue.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 07/16/02 03:26PM >>>
Mmh, one of my brothers is a bit of a fundamentalist; we love each
other, so
over the years, we’ve learnt not to go too deeply into it – the bible
I
think I mean!

U got a great sense of humour

I’m not partial to people who say one thing and act another; Right
wing
fundamentalist (as u say) Christians have supported the drug war for
eons
and it has killed too many of our peers. And yes, they are responsible
for
their behaviour, but so is the state responsible 4 murder. Simple as
that –
ultimately. (Guess I can get pretty fundamentalist myself on days when
I’ve
had to bury junky friends) Sorry, some days are just 2222222 much

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 16 July 2002 20:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

Reminds me of an EXTREMELY fundamentalist friend of mine.  We had
lunch
and dropped into Starbucks (the devil’s brew for sure).  I talked
about
my spiritual journey over the period of a year or so, whereupon he
spent
an hour or two pleading for my damned soul, telling me how “the Bible
says…” and generally seeming unable to truly hear what I was saying
and the reasons for my changes in belief (and being defined by him as
“a
backslidden unbeliever”).  In the end, he remained true to his
FUNDAMENTALS.  He was driving, so after we finished our “chat”, I
climbed into the passenger side and he proceeded to pull straight into
oncoming traffic heading straight for my side. Almost got me KILLED.
“Damn!  …you gotta watch that shit!” I said.  “I’m the one going to
hell here.” 🙂  He laughed his ass off.  He’s still an extremely right
wing fundamentalist.  We still get along great.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 07/16/02 02:51PM >>>
Woh Brett

Wher do you get the timne to write such long articulate, informed
e-mails.

I’m afraid I only have one thing to say on this: FUNDAMENTALISM KILLS

ALL
FUNDAMENTALISM THAT IS ESTABLISED AND MONIED.
Let’s see the Islamic type, the drug war type – anyone wanna add
anymore?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 16 July 2002 19:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Perhaps it boils down to this…Brett is intolerant
with intolerant
people

Pretty much.

and Neuroskull has found a belief position
that works at this
particular time.

Everything “works”. When I was into religion, it
worked and when I did drugs, they worked too, depends
on at what.

Having walked a similar road, the
beliefs and opinions
stated by Neuroskull are pretty consistent with the
evangelical/fundamentalist Christian perspective.

That they are better than everyone else and you should
join their club so you can be special to, Jesus loves
you yes he does and if you don’t believe in him YOU
WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER. I got it, I got it.

Historical
Christianity holds to a certain unchanging system of
thought.

That they are right and you are wrong.

Encouraging others to “stay away from Buddhism and
other such heathen
religions” is consistent with the belief system.

It is also called “good marketing”. The more fear, the
more believers who need to be “saved”,  more believers
the more money and power I will have – got it, very
simple.

Likewise, the term
“heathen” refers to pretty much any “uncivilized”
religion that doesn’t
recognize the God of the Bible, so the term used is
appropriate.

You forgot “irreligous and unenlightened” in that
definition… Also, “the unconverted”, which means
everyone else but them. I could argue that a good
number of “good Christians” (or whoever) are
unenlightened  (uncivilized and a whole buch of other
words) and therfore heathens or is it that once you
got the “I believe in the God of the bible” you pass
GO, nothing else matters? Maybe we will grow past such
“appropriate” terms like we got past using the word
nigger.

Guess I just know too many heathens that believe it is
the same GOD that they believe in, they just call it
by another name, written another language and
culture/understanding and maybe have their own “GREAT
FLOOD” story and rules about how to behave… Many
people who I know practice various beliefs in
different ways but they don’t go around telling people
they practice evil because of their belief is
something non-Christian or Non-muslum or non-jewish
and there are people out there who think exactly the
opposite. I know people who think it is the be-all and
end-all to get into Amway and will toot and holler
Amway is the way and the only way. It is “those
people” that bother me, the ones that think I should
do it their way cause it is the only way and I am an
unlightened, irreligous, ignorant (or whatever) person
if I don’t… and don’t forget they are better than
me (cause I am too stupid to understand). Now you
don’t see me preaching to narrow minded, ignorant,
bigots we will call Christians (just for argument)
that they are unbelievers, heathens, going to hell
unless they believe as I believe, do as I do and that
their methods are the work of the Devil, now do you?
That wouldn’t be nice now would it? So why should I
“tolerate” listening to them without sharing my
opinion? Who knows, maybe at least they will become
“enlightened” to the fact that it really pisses some
people off (and chases prospective good Christians
away).

Expressing a belief or opinion that holds to
absolutes, does NOT
necessarily make a person intolerant.  If they made

Funny how I was just reading a post by a good
Christian who was talking about the Bible saying “Love
thy neighbor”, didn’t say anything about tolerate
him…

<necessarily make a person intolerant>

No, it doesn’t but the belief or opinion might.
In any case your definition of tolerate is somewhat
narrower than mine (and the one in the dictionary).

it a point to drown
you out and stifle YOUR expression, that would be

How about tolerate “To recognize and respect (the
rights, beliefs, or practices of others)”. Right, they
“recognize and respect” those heathen beliefs – that
is exactly how it sounds to me…

Intolerant

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions,
practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those
different from oneself, especially those of a
different racial, ethnic, or social background

It certainly sounds like they excluded me from their
GOD club (they have an exclusive).

When you call someones belief or religious practice
“evil” that isn’t tolerance. When you think they are
less than you are because where they are from, the
color of their skin or their beliefs, that is bigotry.
Most of the “tolerance” I have run across by
fundamentalists is they don’t want to hear it, there
is no “opinion” there is only their way.

intolerant.  Likewise,
if you were discriminated against due to your
religious beliefs, that
would be intolerant.  Jesus was tolerant, but he

Oh and you think I can go off and marry one of their
daughters without a squeel or take a job over a good
Christian (and I am specifically talking about people
who think they are better than other groups because of
their beliefs/color/whatever)

still called the
religious leaders of the day a brood of vipers.

Nothing changes…

He
was also willing to
wash feet and eat with the rabble.

Good judge of character.

Brett

In certain matters I hold to absolutes and will
express them as so, but
I’ll listen attentively to what you say.  I might
even argue against
what you believe.  You might actually help me change
some of my own
beliefs.  Whatever the case, we can still go down to
the deli and break
bread together.  Perhaps this is Neuroskull’s
position as well. Perhaps
not.  He’ll catch up somewhere down the road.
So
kiss and make up.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

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VERSION:2.1
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END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this thro ugh, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 3:26:39 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mmh, one of my brothers is a bit of a fundamentalist; we love each other, so
over the years, we’ve learnt not to go too deeply into it – the bible I
think I mean!

U got a great sense of humour

I’m not partial to people who say one thing and act another; Right wing
fundamentalist (as u say) Christians have supported the drug war for eons
and it has killed too many of our peers. And yes, they are responsible for
their behaviour, but so is the state responsible 4 murder. Simple as that –
ultimately. (Guess I can get pretty fundamentalist myself on days when I’ve
had to bury junky friends) Sorry, some days are just 2222222 much

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 16 July 2002 20:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

Reminds me of an EXTREMELY fundamentalist friend of mine.  We had lunch
and dropped into Starbucks (the devil’s brew for sure).  I talked about
my spiritual journey over the period of a year or so, whereupon he spent
an hour or two pleading for my damned soul, telling me how “the Bible
says…” and generally seeming unable to truly hear what I was saying
and the reasons for my changes in belief (and being defined by him as “a
backslidden unbeliever”).  In the end, he remained true to his
FUNDAMENTALS.  He was driving, so after we finished our “chat”, I
climbed into the passenger side and he proceeded to pull straight into
oncoming traffic heading straight for my side. Almost got me KILLED.
“Damn!  …you gotta watch that shit!” I said.  “I’m the one going to
hell here.” 🙂  He laughed his ass off.  He’s still an extremely right
wing fundamentalist.  We still get along great.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 07/16/02 02:51PM >>>
Woh Brett

Wher do you get the timne to write such long articulate, informed
e-mails.

I’m afraid I only have one thing to say on this: FUNDAMENTALISM KILLS –
ALL
FUNDAMENTALISM THAT IS ESTABLISED AND MONIED.
Let’s see the Islamic type, the drug war type – anyone wanna add
anymore?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 16 July 2002 19:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Perhaps it boils down to this…Brett is intolerant
with intolerant
people

Pretty much.

and Neuroskull has found a belief position
that works at this
particular time.

Everything “works”. When I was into religion, it
worked and when I did drugs, they worked too, depends
on at what.

Having walked a similar road, the
beliefs and opinions
stated by Neuroskull are pretty consistent with the
evangelical/fundamentalist Christian perspective.

That they are better than everyone else and you should
join their club so you can be special to, Jesus loves
you yes he does and if you don’t believe in him YOU
WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER. I got it, I got it.

Historical
Christianity holds to a certain unchanging system of
thought.

That they are right and you are wrong.

Encouraging others to “stay away from Buddhism and
other such heathen
religions” is consistent with the belief system.

It is also called “good marketing”. The more fear, the
more believers who need to be “saved”,  more believers
the more money and power I will have – got it, very
simple.

Likewise, the term
“heathen” refers to pretty much any “uncivilized”
religion that doesn’t
recognize the God of the Bible, so the term used is
appropriate.

You forgot “irreligous and unenlightened” in that
definition… Also, “the unconverted”, which means
everyone else but them. I could argue that a good
number of “good Christians” (or whoever) are
unenlightened  (uncivilized and a whole buch of other
words) and therfore heathens or is it that once you
got the “I believe in the God of the bible” you pass
GO, nothing else matters? Maybe we will grow past such
“appropriate” terms like we got past using the word
nigger.

Guess I just know too many heathens that believe it is
the same GOD that they believe in, they just call it
by another name, written another language and
culture/understanding and maybe have their own “GREAT
FLOOD” story and rules about how to behave… Many
people who I know practice various beliefs in
different ways but they don’t go around telling people
they practice evil because of their belief is
something non-Christian or Non-muslum or non-jewish
and there are people out there who think exactly the
opposite. I know people who think it is the be-all and
end-all to get into Amway and will toot and holler
Amway is the way and the only way. It is “those
people” that bother me, the ones that think I should
do it their way cause it is the only way and I am an
unlightened, irreligous, ignorant (or whatever) person
if I don’t… and don’t forget they are better than
me (cause I am too stupid to understand). Now you
don’t see me preaching to narrow minded, ignorant,
bigots we will call Christians (just for argument)
that they are unbelievers, heathens, going to hell
unless they believe as I believe, do as I do and that
their methods are the work of the Devil, now do you?
That wouldn’t be nice now would it? So why should I
“tolerate” listening to them without sharing my
opinion? Who knows, maybe at least they will become
“enlightened” to the fact that it really pisses some
people off (and chases prospective good Christians
away).

Expressing a belief or opinion that holds to
absolutes, does NOT
necessarily make a person intolerant.  If they made

Funny how I was just reading a post by a good
Christian who was talking about the Bible saying “Love
thy neighbor”, didn’t say anything about tolerate
him…

<necessarily make a person intolerant>

No, it doesn’t but the belief or opinion might.
In any case your definition of tolerate is somewhat
narrower than mine (and the one in the dictionary).

it a point to drown
you out and stifle YOUR expression, that would be

How about tolerate “To recognize and respect (the
rights, beliefs, or practices of others)”. Right, they
“recognize and respect” those heathen beliefs – that
is exactly how it sounds to me…

Intolerant

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions,
practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those
different from oneself, especially those of a
different racial, ethnic, or social background

It certainly sounds like they excluded me from their
GOD club (they have an exclusive).

When you call someones belief or religious practice
“evil” that isn’t tolerance. When you think they are
less than you are because where they are from, the
color of their skin or their beliefs, that is bigotry.
Most of the “tolerance” I have run across by
fundamentalists is they don’t want to hear it, there
is no “opinion” there is only their way.

intolerant.  Likewise,
if you were discriminated against due to your
religious beliefs, that
would be intolerant.  Jesus was tolerant, but he

Oh and you think I can go off and marry one of their
daughters without a squeel or take a job over a good
Christian (and I am specifically talking about people
who think they are better than other groups because of
their beliefs/color/whatever)

still called the
religious leaders of the day a brood of vipers.

Nothing changes…

He
was also willing to
wash feet and eat with the rabble.

Good judge of character.

Brett

In certain matters I hold to absolutes and will
express them as so, but
I’ll listen attentively to what you say.  I might
even argue against
what you believe.  You might actually help me change
some of my own
beliefs.  Whatever the case, we can still go down to
the deli and break
bread together.  Perhaps this is Neuroskull’s
position as well. Perhaps
not.  He’ll catch up somewhere down the road.
So
kiss and make up.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
X-GWTYPE:USER
FN:Rick Venglarcik
TEL;WORK:(757) 827-8430
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TITLE:Therapist I
ADR;INTL;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL:;;2236 W. Queen St.,
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LABEL;INTL;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:Rick
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2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
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2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
Hampton, VA  23666
END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 3:14:59 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Reminds me of an EXTREMELY fundamentalist friend of mine.  We had lunch
and dropped into Starbucks (the devil’s brew for sure).  I talked about
my spiritual journey over the period of a year or so, whereupon he spent
an hour or two pleading for my damned soul, telling me how “the Bible
says…” and generally seeming unable to truly hear what I was saying
and the reasons for my changes in belief (and being defined by him as “a
backslidden unbeliever”).  In the end, he remained true to his
FUNDAMENTALS.  He was driving, so after we finished our “chat”, I
climbed into the passenger side and he proceeded to pull straight into
oncoming traffic heading straight for my side. Almost got me KILLED.
“Damn!  …you gotta watch that shit!” I said.  “I’m the one going to
hell here.” 🙂  He laughed his ass off.  He’s still an extremely right
wing fundamentalist.  We still get along great.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 07/16/02 02:51PM >>>
Woh Brett

Wher do you get the timne to write such long articulate, informed
e-mails.

I’m afraid I only have one thing to say on this: FUNDAMENTALISM KILLS –
ALL
FUNDAMENTALISM THAT IS ESTABLISED AND MONIED.
Let’s see the Islamic type, the drug war type – anyone wanna add
anymore?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 16 July 2002 19:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Perhaps it boils down to this…Brett is intolerant
with intolerant
people

Pretty much.

and Neuroskull has found a belief position
that works at this
particular time.

Everything “works”. When I was into religion, it
worked and when I did drugs, they worked too, depends
on at what.

Having walked a similar road, the
beliefs and opinions
stated by Neuroskull are pretty consistent with the
evangelical/fundamentalist Christian perspective.

That they are better than everyone else and you should
join their club so you can be special to, Jesus loves
you yes he does and if you don’t believe in him YOU
WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER. I got it, I got it.

Historical
Christianity holds to a certain unchanging system of
thought.

That they are right and you are wrong.

Encouraging others to “stay away from Buddhism and
other such heathen
religions” is consistent with the belief system.

It is also called “good marketing”. The more fear, the
more believers who need to be “saved”,  more believers
the more money and power I will have – got it, very
simple.

Likewise, the term
“heathen” refers to pretty much any “uncivilized”
religion that doesn’t
recognize the God of the Bible, so the term used is
appropriate.

You forgot “irreligous and unenlightened” in that
definition… Also, “the unconverted”, which means
everyone else but them. I could argue that a good
number of “good Christians” (or whoever) are
unenlightened  (uncivilized and a whole buch of other
words) and therfore heathens or is it that once you
got the “I believe in the God of the bible” you pass
GO, nothing else matters? Maybe we will grow past such
“appropriate” terms like we got past using the word
nigger.

Guess I just know too many heathens that believe it is
the same GOD that they believe in, they just call it
by another name, written another language and
culture/understanding and maybe have their own “GREAT
FLOOD” story and rules about how to behave… Many
people who I know practice various beliefs in
different ways but they don’t go around telling people
they practice evil because of their belief is
something non-Christian or Non-muslum or non-jewish
and there are people out there who think exactly the
opposite. I know people who think it is the be-all and
end-all to get into Amway and will toot and holler
Amway is the way and the only way. It is “those
people” that bother me, the ones that think I should
do it their way cause it is the only way and I am an
unlightened, irreligous, ignorant (or whatever) person
if I don’t… and don’t forget they are better than
me (cause I am too stupid to understand). Now you
don’t see me preaching to narrow minded, ignorant,
bigots we will call Christians (just for argument)
that they are unbelievers, heathens, going to hell
unless they believe as I believe, do as I do and that
their methods are the work of the Devil, now do you?
That wouldn’t be nice now would it? So why should I
“tolerate” listening to them without sharing my
opinion? Who knows, maybe at least they will become
“enlightened” to the fact that it really pisses some
people off (and chases prospective good Christians
away).

Expressing a belief or opinion that holds to
absolutes, does NOT
necessarily make a person intolerant.  If they made

Funny how I was just reading a post by a good
Christian who was talking about the Bible saying “Love
thy neighbor”, didn’t say anything about tolerate
him…

<necessarily make a person intolerant>

No, it doesn’t but the belief or opinion might.
In any case your definition of tolerate is somewhat
narrower than mine (and the one in the dictionary).

it a point to drown
you out and stifle YOUR expression, that would be

How about tolerate “To recognize and respect (the
rights, beliefs, or practices of others)”. Right, they
“recognize and respect” those heathen beliefs – that
is exactly how it sounds to me…

Intolerant

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions,
practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those
different from oneself, especially those of a
different racial, ethnic, or social background

It certainly sounds like they excluded me from their
GOD club (they have an exclusive).

When you call someones belief or religious practice
“evil” that isn’t tolerance. When you think they are
less than you are because where they are from, the
color of their skin or their beliefs, that is bigotry.
Most of the “tolerance” I have run across by
fundamentalists is they don’t want to hear it, there
is no “opinion” there is only their way.

intolerant.  Likewise,
if you were discriminated against due to your
religious beliefs, that
would be intolerant.  Jesus was tolerant, but he

Oh and you think I can go off and marry one of their
daughters without a squeel or take a job over a good
Christian (and I am specifically talking about people
who think they are better than other groups because of
their beliefs/color/whatever)

still called the
religious leaders of the day a brood of vipers.

Nothing changes…

He
was also willing to
wash feet and eat with the rabble.

Good judge of character.

Brett

In certain matters I hold to absolutes and will
express them as so, but
I’ll listen attentively to what you say.  I might
even argue against
what you believe.  You might actually help me change
some of my own
beliefs.  Whatever the case, we can still go down to
the deli and break
bread together.  Perhaps this is Neuroskull’s
position as well. Perhaps
not.  He’ll catch up somewhere down the road.
So
kiss and make up.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
X-GWTYPE:USER
FN:Rick Venglarcik
TEL;WORK:(757) 827-8430
ORG:HNNCSB;Hampton Roads Clinic
EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:RickV@hnncsb.org
N:Venglarcik;Rick
TITLE:Therapist I
ADR;INTL;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL:;;2236 W. Queen St.,
Suite C;Hampton;VA;23666;US of A

LABEL;INTL;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:Rick
Venglarcik=0A=
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
Hampton, VA  23666=0A=
US of A

LABEL;DOM;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:Rick
Venglarcik=0A=
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
Hampton, VA  23666
END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Hi!
Date: July 16, 2002 at 2:49:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I just wanted to take a brief moment to inform everybody that I’m trying
to clean out my inbox, and thus, sadly, for me — and surely YOU the
reader — I am not available to make my usual witty comments and
informative remarks.

However, I would like to remind everyone that Jimi Hendrix loves you.
Conclusive, Fully Documented Proof:

http://www.markryden.com/gallery/previous2/hendrix.html

Plus, also, if you’re gonna have a War of Ideologies, bring a gun!

http://www.mkgallery.com/limited_editions/TSchorr/image1.html

God bless,

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this thro ugh, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 2:51:17 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Woh Brett

Wher do you get the timne to write such long articulate, informed e-mails.

I’m afraid I only have one thing to say on this: FUNDAMENTALISM KILLS – ALL
FUNDAMENTALISM THAT IS ESTABLISED AND MONIED.
Let’s see the Islamic type, the drug war type – anyone wanna add anymore?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese [mailto:bcalabrese@yahoo.com]
Sent: 16 July 2002 19:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this
through, have 10…

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Perhaps it boils down to this…Brett is intolerant
with intolerant
people

Pretty much.

and Neuroskull has found a belief position
that works at this
particular time.

Everything “works”. When I was into religion, it
worked and when I did drugs, they worked too, depends
on at what.

Having walked a similar road, the
beliefs and opinions
stated by Neuroskull are pretty consistent with the
evangelical/fundamentalist Christian perspective.

That they are better than everyone else and you should
join their club so you can be special to, Jesus loves
you yes he does and if you don’t believe in him YOU
WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER. I got it, I got it.

Historical
Christianity holds to a certain unchanging system of
thought.

That they are right and you are wrong.

Encouraging others to “stay away from Buddhism and
other such heathen
religions” is consistent with the belief system.

It is also called “good marketing”. The more fear, the
more believers who need to be “saved”,  more believers
the more money and power I will have – got it, very
simple.

Likewise, the term
“heathen” refers to pretty much any “uncivilized”
religion that doesn’t
recognize the God of the Bible, so the term used is
appropriate.

You forgot “irreligous and unenlightened” in that
definition… Also, “the unconverted”, which means
everyone else but them. I could argue that a good
number of “good Christians” (or whoever) are
unenlightened  (uncivilized and a whole buch of other
words) and therfore heathens or is it that once you
got the “I believe in the God of the bible” you pass
GO, nothing else matters? Maybe we will grow past such
“appropriate” terms like we got past using the word
nigger.

Guess I just know too many heathens that believe it is
the same GOD that they believe in, they just call it
by another name, written another language and
culture/understanding and maybe have their own “GREAT
FLOOD” story and rules about how to behave… Many
people who I know practice various beliefs in
different ways but they don’t go around telling people
they practice evil because of their belief is
something non-Christian or Non-muslum or non-jewish
and there are people out there who think exactly the
opposite. I know people who think it is the be-all and
end-all to get into Amway and will toot and holler
Amway is the way and the only way. It is “those
people” that bother me, the ones that think I should
do it their way cause it is the only way and I am an
unlightened, irreligous, ignorant (or whatever) person
if I don’t… and don’t forget they are better than
me (cause I am too stupid to understand). Now you
don’t see me preaching to narrow minded, ignorant,
bigots we will call Christians (just for argument)
that they are unbelievers, heathens, going to hell
unless they believe as I believe, do as I do and that
their methods are the work of the Devil, now do you?
That wouldn’t be nice now would it? So why should I
“tolerate” listening to them without sharing my
opinion? Who knows, maybe at least they will become
“enlightened” to the fact that it really pisses some
people off (and chases prospective good Christians
away).

Expressing a belief or opinion that holds to
absolutes, does NOT
necessarily make a person intolerant.  If they made

Funny how I was just reading a post by a good
Christian who was talking about the Bible saying “Love
thy neighbor”, didn’t say anything about tolerate
him…

<necessarily make a person intolerant>

No, it doesn’t but the belief or opinion might.
In any case your definition of tolerate is somewhat
narrower than mine (and the one in the dictionary).

it a point to drown
you out and stifle YOUR expression, that would be

How about tolerate “To recognize and respect (the
rights, beliefs, or practices of others)”. Right, they
“recognize and respect” those heathen beliefs – that
is exactly how it sounds to me…

Intolerant

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions,
practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those
different from oneself, especially those of a
different racial, ethnic, or social background

It certainly sounds like they excluded me from their
GOD club (they have an exclusive).

When you call someones belief or religious practice
“evil” that isn’t tolerance. When you think they are
less than you are because where they are from, the
color of their skin or their beliefs, that is bigotry.
Most of the “tolerance” I have run across by
fundamentalists is they don’t want to hear it, there
is no “opinion” there is only their way.

intolerant.  Likewise,
if you were discriminated against due to your
religious beliefs, that
would be intolerant.  Jesus was tolerant, but he

Oh and you think I can go off and marry one of their
daughters without a squeel or take a job over a good
Christian (and I am specifically talking about people
who think they are better than other groups because of
their beliefs/color/whatever)

still called the
religious leaders of the day a brood of vipers.

Nothing changes…

He
was also willing to
wash feet and eat with the rabble.

Good judge of character.

Brett

In certain matters I hold to absolutes and will
express them as so, but
I’ll listen attentively to what you say.  I might
even argue against
what you believe.  You might actually help me change
some of my own
beliefs.  Whatever the case, we can still go down to
the deli and break
bread together.  Perhaps this is Neuroskull’s
position as well. Perhaps
not.  He’ll catch up somewhere down the road.
So
kiss and make up.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

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2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
Hampton, VA  23666
END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 2:44:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Perhaps it boils down to this…Brett is intolerant
with intolerant
people

Pretty much.

and Neuroskull has found a belief position
that works at this
particular time.

Everything “works”. When I was into religion, it
worked and when I did drugs, they worked too, depends
on at what.

Having walked a similar road, the
beliefs and opinions
stated by Neuroskull are pretty consistent with the
evangelical/fundamentalist Christian perspective.

That they are better than everyone else and you should
join their club so you can be special to, Jesus loves
you yes he does and if you don’t believe in him YOU
WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER. I got it, I got it.

Historical
Christianity holds to a certain unchanging system of
thought.

That they are right and you are wrong.

Encouraging others to “stay away from Buddhism and
other such heathen
religions” is consistent with the belief system.

It is also called “good marketing”. The more fear, the
more believers who need to be “saved”,  more believers
the more money and power I will have – got it, very
simple.

Likewise, the term
“heathen” refers to pretty much any “uncivilized”
religion that doesn’t
recognize the God of the Bible, so the term used is
appropriate.

You forgot “irreligous and unenlightened” in that
definition… Also, “the unconverted”, which means
everyone else but them. I could argue that a good
number of “good Christians” (or whoever) are
unenlightened  (uncivilized and a whole buch of other
words) and therfore heathens or is it that once you
got the “I believe in the God of the bible” you pass
GO, nothing else matters? Maybe we will grow past such
“appropriate” terms like we got past using the word
nigger.

Guess I just know too many heathens that believe it is
the same GOD that they believe in, they just call it
by another name, written another language and
culture/understanding and maybe have their own “GREAT
FLOOD” story and rules about how to behave… Many
people who I know practice various beliefs in
different ways but they don’t go around telling people
they practice evil because of their belief is
something non-Christian or Non-muslum or non-jewish
and there are people out there who think exactly the
opposite. I know people who think it is the be-all and
end-all to get into Amway and will toot and holler
Amway is the way and the only way. It is “those
people” that bother me, the ones that think I should
do it their way cause it is the only way and I am an
unlightened, irreligous, ignorant (or whatever) person
if I don’t… and don’t forget they are better than
me (cause I am too stupid to understand). Now you
don’t see me preaching to narrow minded, ignorant,
bigots we will call Christians (just for argument)
that they are unbelievers, heathens, going to hell
unless they believe as I believe, do as I do and that
their methods are the work of the Devil, now do you?
That wouldn’t be nice now would it? So why should I
“tolerate” listening to them without sharing my
opinion? Who knows, maybe at least they will become
“enlightened” to the fact that it really pisses some
people off (and chases prospective good Christians
away).

Expressing a belief or opinion that holds to
absolutes, does NOT
necessarily make a person intolerant.  If they made

Funny how I was just reading a post by a good
Christian who was talking about the Bible saying “Love
thy neighbor”, didn’t say anything about tolerate
him…

<necessarily make a person intolerant>

No, it doesn’t but the belief or opinion might.
In any case your definition of tolerate is somewhat
narrower than mine (and the one in the dictionary).

it a point to drown
you out and stifle YOUR expression, that would be

How about tolerate “To recognize and respect (the
rights, beliefs, or practices of others)”. Right, they
“recognize and respect” those heathen beliefs – that
is exactly how it sounds to me…

Intolerant

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions,
practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those
different from oneself, especially those of a
different racial, ethnic, or social background

It certainly sounds like they excluded me from their
GOD club (they have an exclusive).

When you call someones belief or religious practice
“evil” that isn’t tolerance. When you think they are
less than you are because where they are from, the
color of their skin or their beliefs, that is bigotry.
Most of the “tolerance” I have run across by
fundamentalists is they don’t want to hear it, there
is no “opinion” there is only their way.

intolerant.  Likewise,
if you were discriminated against due to your
religious beliefs, that
would be intolerant.  Jesus was tolerant, but he

Oh and you think I can go off and marry one of their
daughters without a squeel or take a job over a good
Christian (and I am specifically talking about people
who think they are better than other groups because of
their beliefs/color/whatever)

still called the
religious leaders of the day a brood of vipers.

Nothing changes…

He
was also willing to
wash feet and eat with the rabble.

Good judge of character.

Brett

In certain matters I hold to absolutes and will
express them as so, but
I’ll listen attentively to what you say.  I might
even argue against
what you believe.  You might actually help me change
some of my own
beliefs.  Whatever the case, we can still go down to
the deli and break
bread together.  Perhaps this is Neuroskull’s
position as well. Perhaps
not.  He’ll catch up somewhere down the road.
So
kiss and make up.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

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2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
Hampton, VA  23666
END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this thro ugh, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 2:44:01 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Why would anyone want ETERNAL life?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: NeuroSkull@aol.com [mailto:NeuroSkull@aol.com]
Sent: 16 July 2002 19:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…

Brett,

You and I are talking about two different Jesus’s.  The Jesus I preach is the Jesus of the Bible.   The Jesus of the Bible is not tolerant of other religions.  The Jesus of the Bible said:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”  (John 14:6)

No doubt, He would be viewed as an intolerant bigot in the eyes of today’s society.  The God of the Bible is adamant when it comes to saving men’s souls that there is only ONE way to be saved, ONE path that leads to salvation.  For me to condone or preach any other would be a tremendous affront to a Holy and Righteous God who gave His only Son so that we might be saved.  In fact, if I preached any other way, I would be calling the Jesus that I believe in a liar.  For the Jesus I believe in has said that He is the only way.

If I don’t stand up for what I believe is righteousness (that being the Christ of the Bible) then what a hypocrite I would be.  If I truly believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life in Heaven, why would I stand idle and mute as I watch others who don’t know Jesus march off down a path that I know and believe leads them to hell?  I can’t in good conscience do that.  So I speak up for Christ.  When I see someone standing at a fork in the road, one way is broad and tolerant leading to hell, the other narrow, intolerant and leading to heaven.   Then I say just as Jesus did:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it”.

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them,  “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Jesus is “The Gate”.

Now as for Buddhist chanting, meditation etc.  (This could be a very long story, but I’m not going to get into the entire details here).  You weren’t there the night a friend of my family became possessed by an evil spirit by chanting to Buddha.  You weren’t there when she transformed into a growling animal.  You weren’t there when she began to speak English, a language she did not know how to speak prior to this night. (She’s from Thailand).  You weren’t there when she became violent, foaming at the mouth, cursing and swearing at the mention of the name Jesus.  You weren’t there when she became rigid and pounded her head repeatedly into the cement, bloody, writhing, the thing within her screaming out for Buddha to save it from Jesus.  You weren’t there, I was.

Stay away from these heathen religions.  Yes, you may find “god”.  You may even become “spirit filled”.  But it won’t be the God of all creation that you find, and it won’t be His Holy Spirit that fills you.

Turn to Jesus, the one true way to the one true God.

Neuroskull

In a message dated 7/16/2002 6:16:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bcalabrese@yahoo.com writes:

Excuse me!

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
> I will add, stay away from Buddhism and other such
> heathen religions.

Just goes to show how ignorant, prejudice and bigoted
some “good Christians” can be.

So, tell me (bigot), what do you know (besides
nothing) about these “other such heathen religions”?
The work of the devil, huh? Yeah, that Dali Lama, a
real heathen for sure… definitely an evil one.

> Instead seek the true God through a relationship
> with Jesus Christ.  Not

Then how come you have no seem to have no clue about
what Jesus was about? The love, the acceptance,
tolerance, forgot that part? What is this honor thy
neighbor as long as he believe what you tell him to
believe in?

> religion, relationship.  For more information.
> Visit here:
> http://www.geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html

Not in this lifetime. Been there, done that, gave it a
chance, been to bible study and don’t like hateful
people, people spreading fear and mistrust, gossip,
hate, anger.

>
> Neuroskull
> (Have seen first hand those that have become
> possessed by evil spirits due to
> buddhist meditation & chanting).

Ah, but the millions of people who have been killed by
good Christians “in the name of GOD”, that is OK but
meditation and chanting is evil, got it.

Maybe if we all accepted each other and our beliefs,
respected each other and didn’t pull this “my religion
is better than your religion” crap people would get
along better, ya think? So, the YOGA I do is evil huh,
you know about that Shiva OR that I was born Jewish,
that must be bad too since we chant and don’t pray to
your JC, I even do some Jewish Mysticism (Kabbala),
light insense, do Reiki – or am I taking JC’s job by
healing (with the hands), must be the work of the
devil (been told that by good Christians), right?
Seems that to you Love is evil.

I actually have nothing wrong with JC or any belief of
love and truth, I do have a problem with people who
tell me they have the one true belief and the way put
other people down.

Have fun with your fear based beliefs (which IMO has
nothing to do with JC), watch out GOD is going to get
you, he is watching your every move, the devil is
waiting too, just for you so be careful, one slip and
it hell for sure.

Brett

From: NeuroSkull@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 2:14:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brett,

You and I are talking about two different Jesus’s.  The Jesus I preach is the Jesus of the Bible.   The Jesus of the Bible is not tolerant of other religions.  The Jesus of the Bible said:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”  (John 14:6)

No doubt, He would be viewed as an intolerant bigot in the eyes of today’s society.  The God of the Bible is adamant when it comes to saving men’s souls that there is only ONE way to be saved, ONE path that leads to salvation.  For me to condone or preach any other would be a tremendous affront to a Holy and Righteous God who gave His only Son so that we might be saved.  In fact, if I preached any other way, I would be calling the Jesus that I believe in a liar.  For the Jesus I believe in has said that He is the only way.

If I don’t stand up for what I believe is righteousness (that being the Christ of the Bible) then what a hypocrite I would be.  If I truly believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life in Heaven, why would I stand idle and mute as I watch others who don’t know Jesus march off down a path that I know and believe leads them to hell?  I can’t in good conscience do that.  So I speak up for Christ.  When I see someone standing at a fork in the road, one way is broad and tolerant leading to hell, the other narrow, intolerant and leading to heaven.   Then I say just as Jesus did:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it”.

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them,  “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Jesus is “The Gate”.

Now as for Buddhist chanting, meditation etc.  (This could be a very long story, but I’m not going to get into the entire details here).  You weren’t there the night a friend of my family became possessed by an evil spirit by chanting to Buddha.  You weren’t there when she transformed into a growling animal.  You weren’t there when she began to speak English, a language she did not know how to speak prior to this night. (She’s from Thailand).  You weren’t there when she became violent, foaming at the mouth, cursing and swearing at the mention of the name Jesus.  You weren’t there when she became rigid and pounded her head repeatedly into the cement, bloody, writhing, the thing within her screaming out for Buddha to save it from Jesus.  You weren’t there, I was.

Stay away from these heathen religions.  Yes, you may find “god”.  You may even become “spirit filled”.  But it won’t be the God of all creation that you find, and it won’t be His Holy Spirit that fills you.

Turn to Jesus, the one true way to the one true God.

Neuroskull

In a message dated 7/16/2002 6:16:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bcalabrese@yahoo.com writes:

Excuse me!

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
> I will add, stay away from Buddhism and other such
> heathen religions.

Just goes to show how ignorant, prejudice and bigoted
some “good Christians” can be.

So, tell me (bigot), what do you know (besides
nothing) about these “other such heathen religions”?
The work of the devil, huh? Yeah, that Dali Lama, a
real heathen for sure… definitely an evil one.

> Instead seek the true God through a relationship
> with Jesus Christ.  Not

Then how come you have no seem to have no clue about
what Jesus was about? The love, the acceptance,
tolerance, forgot that part? What is this honor thy
neighbor as long as he believe what you tell him to
believe in?

> religion, relationship.  For more information.
> Visit here:
> http://www.geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html

Not in this lifetime. Been there, done that, gave it a
chance, been to bible study and don’t like hateful
people, people spreading fear and mistrust, gossip,
hate, anger.

>
> Neuroskull
> (Have seen first hand those that have become
> possessed by evil spirits due to
> buddhist meditation & chanting).

Ah, but the millions of people who have been killed by
good Christians “in the name of GOD”, that is OK but
meditation and chanting is evil, got it.

Maybe if we all accepted each other and our beliefs,
respected each other and didn’t pull this “my religion
is better than your religion” crap people would get
along better, ya think? So, the YOGA I do is evil huh,
you know about that Shiva OR that I was born Jewish,
that must be bad too since we chant and don’t pray to
your JC, I even do some Jewish Mysticism (Kabbala),
light insense, do Reiki – or am I taking JC’s job by
healing (with the hands), must be the work of the
devil (been told that by good Christians), right?
Seems that to you Love is evil.

I actually have nothing wrong with JC or any belief of
love and truth, I do have a problem with people who
tell me they have the one true belief and the way put
other people down.

Have fun with your fear based beliefs (which IMO has
nothing to do with JC), watch out GOD is going to get
you, he is watching your every move, the devil is
waiting too, just for you so be careful, one slip and
it hell for sure.

Brett

From: “Rebecca Silverman” <becca_vail@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] SMART link
Date: July 16, 2002 at 1:56:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston thank you, it’s

Self-Help Addiction Recovery – SMART Recovery 4-Point Program – Alternative to AA

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] SMART Link on Mindvox please?
Date: July 16, 2002 at 1:42:10 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rebecca,
Post the link, and I’ll put it up at Drugwar.com in our links list.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Rebecca Silverman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] SMART Link on Mindvox please?

Hi Patrick,

A request to at least think about please? I know you never reply to mail but
would you consider putting in a link for SMART? The program agrees with so
many things that you have to say and it wouldn’t hurt you to add it to harm
reduction.

Also if you are going to be adding the whole rave scene from South Beach,
would you consider adding a happenings area where we can list meetings (not
NA meetings!) please?

I know your reply is usually ‘it’s a free world, go start your own web site
and see if you can find 10 people who care’ and probably I can’t! But I’d
love to add the updates and at least the banner to mindvox please. You do
run everything on ibogaine, which some people bitch about some of the time
🙂 Please add smart.

I know how to use alexa too, please do not tell me to throw it somewhere
else, it’s just a little banner. Ok? Please? 🙂 You have more people
hitting this crazy thing (meant in a good way!) and reading what you say,
then nearly anything else I’ve ever used online, it would not hurt for some
of them to find smart in your links.

Mindvox 29,508
Phantom I can’t get it to read anymore, but you have two domains hooked to
mindvox both in the top 50,000

AA 50,201
NA 79,212
SMART 257,568
SMART Florida 975,211
DRCNET 171,235
Herointimes 171,600
MAPS 108,645

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: “Rebecca Silverman” <becca_vail@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] after ibogaine and SMART
Date: July 16, 2002 at 1:49:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Did you mean me? Alison wrote one line replying to my msg. I’m not bashing Patrick. He’s cute, really smart, articulate and has a lot of charisma. What’s not to like? So he’s crazy, so what. He’s one of my role models no joke. He’s also not a very private person his whole life is talked about by Dr. Mash, himself, he is not invisible or anonymous in south Florida. Patrick seriously was one of the main reasons I broke out of NA in the first place, there are all the Patrick stories and so what does this guy do to stay clean? I don’t know but it’s sure not sitting in these stupid meetings they keep throwing us into 🙂 A program of attraction 🙂

I didn’t write you personal email or say anything that Eric didn’t say. The rest of what I’ve read today is the jesus and not jesus debate between the two people having it. I think Rick and Alison agreed with what I said about Patrick saying nearly the same things as SMART about defining yourself and something besides being a addict.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From: “Rebecca Silverman” <becca_vail@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] SMART Link on Mindvox please?
Date: July 16, 2002 at 1:33:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Patrick,

A request to at least think about please? I know you never reply to mail but would you consider putting in a link for SMART? The program agrees with so many things that you have to say and it wouldn’t hurt you to add it to harm reduction.

Also if you are going to be adding the whole rave scene from South Beach, would you consider adding a happenings area where we can list meetings (not NA meetings!) please?

I know your reply is usually ‘it’s a free world, go start your own web site and see if you can find 10 people who care’ and probably I can’t! But I’d love to add the updates and at least the banner to mindvox please. You do run everything on ibogaine, which some people bitch about some of the time 🙂 Please add smart.

I know how to use alexa too, please do not tell me to throw it somewhere else, it’s just a little banner. Ok? Please? 🙂 You have more people hitting this crazy thing (meant in a good way!) and reading what you say, then nearly anything else I’ve ever used online, it would not hurt for some of them to find smart in your links.

Mindvox 29,508
Phantom I can’t get it to read anymore, but you have two domains hooked to mindvox both in the top 50,000

AA 50,201
NA 79,212
SMART 257,568
SMART Florida 975,211
DRCNET 171,235
Herointimes 171,600
MAPS 108,645

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] after ibogaine and SMART
Date: July 16, 2002 at 1:29:04 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Alison, and others

I’m sure u have your own reasons for informing me/us of your feelings about
Patrick etc
And this is the umpteenth time I’ve received an e-mail putting him down.
First of all, PLEASE resolve your issues
Second of all, none of this is my business, and I’d be healthier if not
exposed to it, OK?
Thirdly, he runs this lists for our benefit; i met him; seems like a good
person. Enough already

Let’s assess ourselves, and where we’re at before we dare to presume it’s ok
to trash others.

I don’t want a response to this; U r putting him down, and this HUGE ONGOING
F debate about who’s got the best/right/healthiest recovery DOESN@T HELP us.
PLEASE stop this

OR if you do want to discuss things that help us, do it in a way that
doesn’t offend, or hurt others.

Today, I buried another addict. I just don’t understand WHY we carry on
doing this. There is no ONE WAY; there are many ways that have helped. (TOO
MANY that haven’t) but if u r aware of those, then join us in changing this
crazy sysytem

Solidarity

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Alison Senepart [mailto:aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz]
Sent: 16 August 2002 14:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after ibogaine and SMART

Go Rebecca.  Thats about the most common sense I’ve sent posted here.
Allison
—–Original Message—–
From: Rebecca Silverman <becca_vail@hotmail.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Tuesday, 16 July 2002 23:07
Subject: [ibogaine] after ibogaine and SMART

Hi Eric,

I try to stay out of most of the more heated conversations here except I
wanted to say some things to you and I hope you hear at least a few of
them.

I know you might be going through a bad time because the last one of your
friends who you were spending time with has overdosed. That’s always so
hard
but you are not alone a lot of us have dealt with that and felt it before.

Patrick and Dr. Mash and all that has made the rounds so many times it’s
like why bother. Whatever her reasons or his reasons, it’s not all that
complicated. There is almost no difference between Patrick and DM, the only
person who has ever lasted being in her environment is him. Where they
actually work is a totally toxic and chaotic place where anyone even near
it
for more then a hour is nervous. The only people who thrive there are the
extremely smart and crazy.

I have heard all the Patrick stories before, there is nearly the main 10
reasons Patrick is Satan class at some of the rehabs he went through before
leaving for Thailand. What I’ve realized is that he and DM are exactly the
same in so many ways, they are manic depressive like crazy, really smart
except the difference is Patrick does get real because he was an addict, DM
can put that one off forever. And I have seen him before, if I didn’t know
him I’d say that guy is on speed and crack and about to sail off the
tracks.
But then 3 minutes later he pulls it together and acts like the nicest
person in the world. His brain chemistry is out there and whatever his
other
problems I’m sure he was self medicating with heroin.

Beside whatever the personal issues are, DM loves to power trip and Patrick
totally fulfills that. Hardcore life time drug addiction, clean three years
after taking only her advice. Does all her computer things, does all her
web
things, does huge amounts of PR for her, does her brain bank and does a job
people train 8 years for after 6 months of being around it. And he does all
that because Dr. Mash did all that 🙂 Or maybe not, but it’s nice to take
credit for 🙂

It’s easy to fill up pages with all the stories that make the rounds but it
won’t change anything or make any difference to you Eric. Patrick is
Patrick, DM is DM, Eric is you and your own problems aren’t the result of
any of them. There are at least 3 people in our group who are doing SMART
and think it’s great. If you want to or anyone from Miami does, join us at
Little River, someone is there every day but most of the after ibogaine
group who is not doing the steps exactly but something else and are staying
sober, meets on Wed at 7:30. You’re invited too Patrick! But we personally
invite you at least once a month and you never reply to the email.

Anyone who is in Miami or passing through and happens to be in town on a
Wednesday is invited. It’s the Little River club off Biscayne.

The difference between SMART and Rational Recovery is that SMART doesn’t
have $20,000 worth of videotapes and books to sell you. It was started by
that RR guy, but he’s interested in running a large business, SMART are
people who want to stop defining themselves as addicts.

And you know what else, everything Patrick ever writes or says is ‘I’m not
in recovery, I just stopped shooting heroin,’ Randy on this list wrote
nearly the same thing, most of us have grown into beliefs very close to
that. The only ones left defining themselves as addicts are the ones who
are
still sitting in rehab and relapsing because of a mysterious disease 🙂

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 12:55:23 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Perhaps it boils down to this…Brett is intolerant with intolerant
people and Neuroskull has found a belief position that works at this
particular time.  Having walked a similar road, the beliefs and opinions
stated by Neuroskull are pretty consistent with the
evangelical/fundamentalist Christian perspective.  Historical
Christianity holds to a certain unchanging system of thought.
Encouraging others to “stay away from Buddhism and other such heathen
religions” is consistent with the belief system.  Likewise, the term
“heathen” refers to pretty much any “uncivilized” religion that doesn’t
recognize the God of the Bible, so the term used is appropriate.

Expressing a belief or opinion that holds to absolutes, does NOT
necessarily make a person intolerant.  If they made it a point to drown
you out and stifle YOUR expression, that would be intolerant.  Likewise,
if you were discriminated against due to your religious beliefs, that
would be intolerant.  Jesus was tolerant, but he still called the
religious leaders of the day a brood of vipers.  He was also willing to
wash feet and eat with the rabble.

In certain matters I hold to absolutes and will express them as so, but
I’ll listen attentively to what you say.  I might even argue against
what you believe.  You might actually help me change some of my own
beliefs.  Whatever the case, we can still go down to the deli and break
bread together.  Perhaps this is Neuroskull’s position as well. Perhaps
not.  He’ll catch up somewhere down the road.  So kiss and make up.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: July 16, 2002 at 12:00:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just in case there was a misunderstanding…

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=bigot

bigṖot   Pronunciation Key  (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one’s own group,
religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those
who differ.

Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the
sense “a superstitious hypocrite.”

“superstitious hypocrite”, I like it, quite accurate.

http://www.hyperdic.net/dic/b/bigot.htm

A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions
differing from his own.

http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?PAGE=144

Bigoted
Big”ot*ed, a. Obstinately and blindly attached to some
creed, opinion practice, or ritual; unreasonably
devoted to a system or party, and illiberal toward the
opinions of others. Bigoted to strife.” Byron. Syn. —
Prejudiced; intolerant; narrow-minded.

Personally I thought this was more of what GOD MEANS
TO ME (in my personal relationship with the Lord)?

The Lord is close to all who call on him, yes, to all
who call on Him sincerely.
–Psalm 145:18

Guess that don’t count (to you) unless you are
Christian since no one can be sincere in their beliefs
except you.

I don’t want to get in the way of your selective
reading but you should really should consider the
following bible quotes, you are being far too
considerate;

“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones,
and kill every woman who has known man by lying with
him. But all the young girls who have not known man by
lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
Numbers 31:17 (Moses)

JC said

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on
earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a
daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law
against her mother- in-law….”
Matthew 10:34

Maybe that is where you get it from…

“Slay and utterly destroy after them, says the Lord,
and do all that I have commanded you.”
Jeremiah 50:21

“Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath
and fierce anger…Whoever is found will be thrust
through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their
eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives
ravished.”
Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

Man, no wonder… Personally I like that evil chanting
a lot better than good Christian killing people,
torture, burning them at the stake, crucifiction, but
that is my taste.

Brett

— NeuroSkull@aol.com wrote:
I will add, stay away from Buddhism and other such
heathen religions.
Instead seek the true God through a relationship
with Jesus Christ.  Not
religion, relationship.  For more information.
Visit here:
http://www.geocities.com/neuroskull/gift.html

Neuroskull
(Have seen first hand those that have become
possessed by evil spirits due to
buddhist meditation & chanting).

__________________________________________________
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Mash on Ibogaine in the Wall Street Journal
Date: July 16, 2002 at 11:07:11 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana? What are you talking about, what article, what
does it say?

Carla B

The Ibogaine part is at the end of the article–

Pubdate: Mon, 15 Jul 2002
Source: Wall Street Journal (US)
Copyright: 2002 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
Contact: wsj.ltrs@wsj.com
Website: http://www.wsj.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/487
Author: Gautam Naik

AN ARRAY OF NEW DRUGS SHOWS PROMISE IN FIGHTING ADDICTIONS

Could people be inoculated against drug addictions the way they can against
some infectious diseases?

It may be possible. Despite disappointing past efforts to treat addictions
with medicine, recent research indicates the approach has merit. In one
study, about 50 smokers in Belgium were injected with an unusual drug ,
code-named TA-NIC. After taking as many as five doses in 10 weeks, two of
the study’s subjects quit smoking. Several others reported less desire to
smoke, says Xenova PLC, the drug’s British maker.

The experimental drug is one of the first attempts to design an antismoking
vaccine. By producing antibodies in the user’s blood, it prevents nicotine
molecules from entering the brain and triggering a “high.” Denied such
pleasure, a smoker theoretically has less incentive to light up again.

Vaccines are just one of several new medical approaches to fight the
escalating problem of addiction.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1322.a06.html

——————————

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] wsj article
Date: July 16, 2002 at 10:57:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana? What are you talking about, what article, what
does it say?

Carla B

I can’t seem to access the article on my netscape. It was in yesterday’s WSJ.

Dana/cnw

From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Eric, whomever, if you do decide to read this through, have 10…
Date: August 16, 2002 at 9:54:25 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To put down peoples choice of religion is so unnecessary.  Religion, no
matter what shape or form it takes, gives a lot of people comfort and I
reckon thats great.  It shouldn’t matter if its buddisim, christianity or
jewish or whatever.  Live and let live.  I don’t care what religion you
follow or if you follow none at all.  A basic code of honesty and treating
people as you would like to be treated should help most people through life.
You don