Ibogaine List Archives – 2005-09

From: Dee <deemisfit@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: September 30, 2005 at 7:37:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

idiot
ahahah oops total fuck up

On 9/30/05, Dee <deemisfit@gmail.com> wrote:
who be the iodiot here. This shit is sooooo old!

Dee lite

On 9/30/05, Roslyn Mazzilli <rozmazz@hotmail.com> wrote:
Please go to urban legends.com and check you information, I have received
this email in the past and it is not true.

From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING
AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:07:03 +1200

Two points I would like to make

1.     There is noway for internet companies like Microsoft and AOL to
track emails, so any emails LIKE this are bullshit. Delete them immediately
or at least take five minutes to go to a hoax website to confirm validity.
PLEASE for the LOVE OF GOD.
2.     Is there nobody you know that understands the concept of BCC??????
It hides email addresses.

Kirk

_____

From: Faye, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Faye@NorthSafety.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:45 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: luke.christofersen@gmail.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING
AMERICA
TODAY SHOW …

_____

From: Wilson, Jared
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 10:44 AM
To: All North Users
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

—–Original Message—–
From: Eric Grilli [mailto:EGrilli@elitespice.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:19 AM
To: LEIF_CHRISTENSEN@patagonia.com; ERIC_AND_CHRISTINA@SBCGLOBAL.NET;
Wilson, Jared
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

_____

From: Barbara Mack
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:05 AM
To: Administrator; Andrea Duer; Andrew Wales; Annette Dill; Arnulfo Ruiz;
Balta Morales; Barbara Mack; Bill Henry; Brian Upton; Carlos Onofre; Ches
Wheeler; Chris Leo; Cliffton Johnson; Craig Bohle; Craig Riley; Dawn
Wykoff;
Dean Cook; Debbie Ingle; Debbie Whitcomb; Denise Tenney; Diane Townsend;
Drew Andrews; Earl Garrett; Ed Najera; Ed Upton; Eric Grilli; Erin
Carrington; Frank Appice; Galina Shkolnik; Gene Dickman; George Meyer;
Ginny
Kunkel; Holli Romero; Jennie Wykoff; Jennifer Latham; Jennifer MacDaniel;
Jerry Saiz; Joe Freiert; Joe McDiarmid; Joe Stickel; Joellen Busch; John
Brandt; Joyce Buck; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Keith Cook; Ken Wainwright;
Kevin McReynolds; Kris Schutz; Krissy Nieman; Larry Gonzalez; Larry
Whitlock; Laura Dyer; Linda Allen; Linda Yates; Liz Morris; Lupe Onofre;
Margie Singer; Maria Gomez; Maria Rain; Melinda Fernandez; Michelle McHale;
Nancy Marcus; Nichole Justice; Pam Mullan; Pete Gyening; Pete Walor;
Phillip
Peterson; Pia Barbarite; Ree Kem; Ricardo; Robb Stuller; Robert Canlas;
Sabrina Fiers; Scott MacAdams; Sheila Taylor; Stacy Straub; Steve McLaren;
Steve Toy; Susan Ward; Tamar Hernandez; Tanya Collazo; Tim Skreen; Tim
Walker; Tony Grenis; Tricia Guisasola; Valeri Mull; Angela Mandel
(AngelaMandel@hotmail.com); Celeste Bossle (Cbossle@comcast.net); Debbie
Pusateri (dpusateri@cms.hhs.gov); Ellen Prucha (pruchae@mac.com); Heather
Hollenbach (hmhbach@hotmail.com); Jean Brolund (jeanbrolund@comcast.net);
Julie Howard (julie.howard10@verizon.net); Kathy Brownley
(tkbrownley@comcast.net); Leslie Donohue (lesliedono@aol.com); Lisa Kokes
(kokes@comcast.net); Mark Doran; Mary Jean Mazzafro (mjdmaz@aol.com);
Meggin
Collins (Meggins@comcast.net); Melissa Bossle (mbzohdi@hotmail.com); Missy
Mack (mackm@RPCS.org); Nancy Wilson (springgarden@adelphia.net); Pam
Konetzni (PJKonetzni@aol.com); Pat Barnes (cddkh@allstate.com); roy bensen;
Teresa Bateman; Teresa Billet (Billetx4@comcast.net); Valerie Gagnon
(vmgagnon@hotmail.com)
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

Okay, this can’t hurt!!!!!

Barbara A. Mack

Accounts Receivable Manager

Elite Spice, Inc.

7151 Montevideo Road

Jessup, Maryland 20794

Phone: 410-796-1900

Fax: 410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Linda Allen
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: Andrea Duer; Barbara Mack; Brian Upton; Chris Leo; Debbie Ingle; Denise
Tenney; Ginny Kunkel; Holli Romero; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Ken
Wainwright;
Leslie Kremer; Melinda Fernandez; Nancy Marcus; Pam Mullan; Pia Barbarite;
Tanya Collazo
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

Linda Allen

Elite Spice Inc.

Phone: 410-796-1900

Fax:  410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Krissy Nieman
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:38 AM
To: ‘Brenda Royce’; ‘edonelan@frankparsons.com’; ‘Deborah Morris’; ‘Melissa
D. Lachman, MS, ATC’; ‘GLENN BIDGOOD’; Linda Allen
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

Thank You

Krissy Nieman

Elite Spice

410.796.1900 ext242

—–Original Message—–
From: Lorri Ericson [mailto:LAEricson@reachone.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 2:10 PM
To: laericson@aol.com
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

May be a scam, but really need the $$, so can’t hurt to give it a try.

THIS TOOK TWO PAGES OF THE TUESDAY USA TODAY – IT IS FOR REAL

Kathy South Alcoa – EHS Maintenance Coordinator, Phone: 765/771 – 3547

Pager : 765/420 – 6575

To all of my friends, I do not usually forward messages, But this

is

from my friend Pearlas Sandborn and she really is an attorney.

If she says that this will work – It will work. After all, What have

you  got to lose?

SORRY EVERYBODY.. JUST HAD TO TAKE THE CHANCE!!! I’m an attorney,

And I know the law. This thing is for real. Rest assured AOL and

&nbs p;  Intel will follow through with their promises for fear of
facing

a

multimillion-dollar class action suit similar to the one filed by

PepsiCo against General Electric not too long ago.

Dear Friends; Please do not take this for a junk letter. Bill

Gates

sharing his fortune. If you ignore this, You will repent later.

Microsoft and AOL are now the largest Internet companies and in

an

effort to make sure that Internet Explorer remains the most

widely

used program, Microsoft and AOL are running an e-mail beta test.

When you forward this e-mail to friends, Microsoft can and wi ll

track it (If you are a Microsoft Windows user) For a two weeks

time

period.

For every person that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft will pay

you  $245.00 For every person that you sent it to that forwards it on,

Microsoft will pay you $243.00 and for every third person that receives

it, You will be paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will contact

you  for your address and then send you a check.

Regards. Charles S Bailey General Manager Field Operations

1-800-842-2332 Ext. 1085 or 904-1085 or RNX

292-1085 Charles_Bailey@csx.com

Charles_bailey@csx.com

thought this was a scam myself, But two weeks after receiving this

e-mail  and forwarding it on. Microsoft contacted me for my address and

withindays, &! gt; receive a check for $24,800.00. You need to  respond

before the beta testing is over. If anyone can affoard this, Bill  gates

is the man.

It’s all marketing expense to him. Please forward this to as many

people  as possible. You are bound to get at least $10,000.00 We’re not

going to  help them out with their e-mail beta test without getting a

little  something for our time. My brother’s girlfriend got in on this a

few  months ago. When i went to visit him for the Baylor/UT game. She

showed me  her check. It was for the sum of $4,324.44 and was stamped

“Paid in full”

Like i said before, I know the law, and this is for real.

**************************************************************

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Dee <deemisfit@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: September 30, 2005 at 7:37:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

who be the iodiot here. This shit is sooooo old!

Dee lite

On 9/30/05, Roslyn Mazzilli <rozmazz@hotmail.com> wrote:
Please go to urban legends.com and check you information, I have received
this email in the past and it is not true.

From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING
AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:07:03 +1200

Two points I would like to make

1.     There is noway for internet companies like Microsoft and AOL to
track emails, so any emails LIKE this are bullshit. Delete them immediately
or at least take five minutes to go to a hoax website to confirm validity.
PLEASE for the LOVE OF GOD.
2.     Is there nobody you know that understands the concept of BCC??????
It hides email addresses.

Kirk

_____

From: Faye, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Faye@NorthSafety.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:45 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: luke.christofersen@gmail.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING
AMERICA
TODAY SHOW …

_____

From: Wilson, Jared
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 10:44 AM
To: All North Users
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

—–Original Message—–
From: Eric Grilli [mailto:EGrilli@elitespice.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:19 AM
To: LEIF_CHRISTENSEN@patagonia.com; ERIC_AND_CHRISTINA@SBCGLOBAL.NET;
Wilson, Jared
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

_____

From: Barbara Mack
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:05 AM
To: Administrator; Andrea Duer; Andrew Wales; Annette Dill; Arnulfo Ruiz;
Balta Morales; Barbara Mack; Bill Henry; Brian Upton; Carlos Onofre; Ches
Wheeler; Chris Leo; Cliffton Johnson; Craig Bohle; Craig Riley; Dawn
Wykoff;
Dean Cook; Debbie Ingle; Debbie Whitcomb; Denise Tenney; Diane Townsend;
Drew Andrews; Earl Garrett; Ed Najera; Ed Upton; Eric Grilli; Erin
Carrington; Frank Appice; Galina Shkolnik; Gene Dickman; George Meyer;
Ginny
Kunkel; Holli Romero; Jennie Wykoff; Jennifer Latham; Jennifer MacDaniel;
Jerry Saiz; Joe Freiert; Joe McDiarmid; Joe Stickel; Joellen Busch; John
Brandt; Joyce Buck; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Keith Cook; Ken Wainwright;
Kevin McReynolds; Kris Schutz; Krissy Nieman; Larry Gonzalez; Larry
Whitlock; Laura Dyer; Linda Allen; Linda Yates; Liz Morris; Lupe Onofre;
Margie Singer; Maria Gomez; Maria Rain; Melinda Fernandez; Michelle McHale;
Nancy Marcus; Nichole Justice; Pam Mullan; Pete Gyening; Pete Walor;
Phillip
Peterson; Pia Barbarite; Ree Kem; Ricardo; Robb Stuller; Robert Canlas;
Sabrina Fiers; Scott MacAdams; Sheila Taylor; Stacy Straub; Steve McLaren;
Steve Toy; Susan Ward; Tamar Hernandez; Tanya Collazo; Tim Skreen; Tim
Walker; Tony Grenis; Tricia Guisasola; Valeri Mull; Angela Mandel
(AngelaMandel@hotmail.com); Celeste Bossle (Cbossle@comcast.net); Debbie
Pusateri (dpusateri@cms.hhs.gov); Ellen Prucha (pruchae@mac.com); Heather
Hollenbach (hmhbach@hotmail.com); Jean Brolund (jeanbrolund@comcast.net);
Julie Howard (julie.howard10@verizon.net); Kathy Brownley
(tkbrownley@comcast.net); Leslie Donohue (lesliedono@aol.com); Lisa Kokes
(kokes@comcast.net); Mark Doran; Mary Jean Mazzafro (mjdmaz@aol.com);
Meggin
Collins (Meggins@comcast.net); Melissa Bossle (mbzohdi@hotmail.com); Missy
Mack (mackm@RPCS.org); Nancy Wilson (springgarden@adelphia.net); Pam
Konetzni (PJKonetzni@aol.com); Pat Barnes (cddkh@allstate.com); roy bensen;
Teresa Bateman; Teresa Billet (Billetx4@comcast.net); Valerie Gagnon
(vmgagnon@hotmail.com)
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

Okay, this can’t hurt!!!!!

Barbara A. Mack

Accounts Receivable Manager

Elite Spice, Inc.

7151 Montevideo Road

Jessup, Maryland 20794

Phone: 410-796-1900

Fax: 410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Linda Allen
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: Andrea Duer; Barbara Mack; Brian Upton; Chris Leo; Debbie Ingle; Denise
Tenney; Ginny Kunkel; Holli Romero; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Ken
Wainwright;
Leslie Kremer; Melinda Fernandez; Nancy Marcus; Pam Mullan; Pia Barbarite;
Tanya Collazo
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

Linda Allen

Elite Spice Inc.

Phone: 410-796-1900

Fax:  410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Krissy Nieman
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:38 AM
To: ‘Brenda Royce’; ‘edonelan@frankparsons.com’; ‘Deborah Morris’; ‘Melissa
D. Lachman, MS, ATC’; ‘GLENN BIDGOOD’; Linda Allen
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

Thank You

Krissy Nieman

Elite Spice

410.796.1900 ext242

—–Original Message—–
From: Lorri Ericson [mailto:LAEricson@reachone.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 2:10 PM
To: laericson@aol.com
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY
SHOW

May be a scam, but really need the $$, so can’t hurt to give it a try.

THIS TOOK TWO PAGES OF THE TUESDAY USA TODAY – IT IS FOR REAL

Kathy South Alcoa – EHS Maintenance Coordinator, Phone: 765/771 – 3547

Pager : 765/420 – 6575

To all of my friends, I do not usually forward messages, But this

is

from my friend Pearlas Sandborn and she really is an attorney.

If she says that this will work – It will work. After all, What have

you  got to lose?

SORRY EVERYBODY.. JUST HAD TO TAKE THE CHANCE!!! I’m an attorney,

And I know the law. This thing is for real. Rest assured AOL and

&nbs p;  Intel will follow through with their promises for fear of
facing

a

multimillion-dollar class action suit similar to the one filed by

PepsiCo against General Electric not too long ago.

Dear Friends; Please do not take this for a junk letter. Bill

Gates

sharing his fortune. If you ignore this, You will repent later.

Microsoft and AOL are now the largest Internet companies and in

an

effort to make sure that Internet Explorer remains the most

widely

used program, Microsoft and AOL are running an e-mail beta test.

When you forward this e-mail to friends, Microsoft can and wi ll

track it (If you are a Microsoft Windows user) For a two weeks

time

period.

For every person that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft will pay

you  $245.00 For every person that you sent it to that forwards it on,

Microsoft will pay you $243.00 and for every third person that receives

it, You will be paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will contact

you  for your address and then send you a check.

Regards. Charles S Bailey General Manager Field Operations

1-800-842-2332 Ext. 1085 or 904-1085 or RNX

292-1085 Charles_Bailey@csx.com

Charles_bailey@csx.com

thought this was a scam myself, But two weeks after receiving this

e-mail  and forwarding it on. Microsoft contacted me for my address and

withindays, &! gt; receive a check for $24,800.00. You need to  respond

before the beta testing is over. If anyone can affoard this, Bill  gates

is the man.

It’s all marketing expense to him. Please forward this to as many

people  as possible. You are bound to get at least $10,000.00 We’re not

going to  help them out with their e-mail beta test without getting a

little  something for our time. My brother’s girlfriend got in on this a

few  months ago. When i went to visit him for the Baylor/UT game. She

showed me  her check. It was for the sum of $4,324.44 and was stamped

“Paid in full”

Like i said before, I know the law, and this is for real.

**************************************************************

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Roslyn Mazzilli” <rozmazz@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: September 30, 2005 at 12:02:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please go to urban legends.com and check you information, I have received this email in the past and it is not true.

From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:07:03 +1200

Two points I would like to make

1. There is noway for internet companies like Microsoft and AOL to
track emails, so any emails LIKE this are bullshit. Delete them immediately
or at least take five minutes to go to a hoax website to confirm validity.
PLEASE for the LOVE OF GOD.
2. Is there nobody you know that understands the concept of BCC??????
It hides email addresses.

Kirk

_____

From: Faye, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Faye@NorthSafety.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:45 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: luke.christofersen@gmail.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA
TODAY SHOW …

_____

From: Wilson, Jared
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 10:44 AM
To: All North Users
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW

—–Original Message—–
From: Eric Grilli [mailto:EGrilli@elitespice.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:19 AM
To: LEIF_CHRISTENSEN@patagonia.com; ERIC_AND_CHRISTINA@SBCGLOBAL.NET;
Wilson, Jared
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW

_____

From: Barbara Mack
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:05 AM
To: Administrator; Andrea Duer; Andrew Wales; Annette Dill; Arnulfo Ruiz;
Balta Morales; Barbara Mack; Bill Henry; Brian Upton; Carlos Onofre; Ches
Wheeler; Chris Leo; Cliffton Johnson; Craig Bohle; Craig Riley; Dawn Wykoff;
Dean Cook; Debbie Ingle; Debbie Whitcomb; Denise Tenney; Diane Townsend;
Drew Andrews; Earl Garrett; Ed Najera; Ed Upton; Eric Grilli; Erin
Carrington; Frank Appice; Galina Shkolnik; Gene Dickman; George Meyer; Ginny
Kunkel; Holli Romero; Jennie Wykoff; Jennifer Latham; Jennifer MacDaniel;
Jerry Saiz; Joe Freiert; Joe McDiarmid; Joe Stickel; Joellen Busch; John
Brandt; Joyce Buck; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Keith Cook; Ken Wainwright;
Kevin McReynolds; Kris Schutz; Krissy Nieman; Larry Gonzalez; Larry
Whitlock; Laura Dyer; Linda Allen; Linda Yates; Liz Morris; Lupe Onofre;
Margie Singer; Maria Gomez; Maria Rain; Melinda Fernandez; Michelle McHale;
Nancy Marcus; Nichole Justice; Pam Mullan; Pete Gyening; Pete Walor; Phillip
Peterson; Pia Barbarite; Ree Kem; Ricardo; Robb Stuller; Robert Canlas;
Sabrina Fiers; Scott MacAdams; Sheila Taylor; Stacy Straub; Steve McLaren;
Steve Toy; Susan Ward; Tamar Hernandez; Tanya Collazo; Tim Skreen; Tim
Walker; Tony Grenis; Tricia Guisasola; Valeri Mull; Angela Mandel
(AngelaMandel@hotmail.com); Celeste Bossle (Cbossle@comcast.net); Debbie
Pusateri (dpusateri@cms.hhs.gov); Ellen Prucha (pruchae@mac.com); Heather
Hollenbach (hmhbach@hotmail.com); Jean Brolund (jeanbrolund@comcast.net);
Julie Howard (julie.howard10@verizon.net); Kathy Brownley
(tkbrownley@comcast.net); Leslie Donohue (lesliedono@aol.com); Lisa Kokes
(kokes@comcast.net); Mark Doran; Mary Jean Mazzafro (mjdmaz@aol.com); Meggin
Collins (Meggins@comcast.net); Melissa Bossle (mbzohdi@hotmail.com); Missy
Mack (mackm@RPCS.org); Nancy Wilson (springgarden@adelphia.net); Pam
Konetzni (PJKonetzni@aol.com); Pat Barnes (cddkh@allstate.com); roy bensen;
Teresa Bateman; Teresa Billet (Billetx4@comcast.net); Valerie Gagnon
(vmgagnon@hotmail.com)
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW

Okay, this can’t hurt!!!!!

Barbara A. Mack

Accounts Receivable Manager

Elite Spice, Inc.

7151 Montevideo Road

Jessup, Maryland 20794

Phone: 410-796-1900

Fax: 410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Linda Allen
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: Andrea Duer; Barbara Mack; Brian Upton; Chris Leo; Debbie Ingle; Denise
Tenney; Ginny Kunkel; Holli Romero; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Ken Wainwright;
Leslie Kremer; Melinda Fernandez; Nancy Marcus; Pam Mullan; Pia Barbarite;
Tanya Collazo
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW

Linda Allen

Elite Spice Inc.

Phone: 410-796-1900

Fax:  410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Krissy Nieman
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:38 AM
To: ‘Brenda Royce’; ‘edonelan@frankparsons.com’; ‘Deborah Morris’; ‘Melissa
D. Lachman, MS, ATC’; ‘GLENN BIDGOOD’; Linda Allen
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW

Thank You

Krissy Nieman

Elite Spice

410.796.1900 ext242

—–Original Message—–
From: Lorri Ericson [mailto:LAEricson@reachone.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 2:10 PM
To: laericson@aol.com
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW

May be a scam, but really need the $$, so can’t hurt to give it a try.

THIS TOOK TWO PAGES OF THE TUESDAY USA TODAY – IT IS FOR REAL

Kathy South Alcoa – EHS Maintenance Coordinator, Phone: 765/771 – 3547

Pager : 765/420 – 6575

To all of my friends, I do not usually forward messages, But this

is

from my friend Pearlas Sandborn and she really is an attorney.

If she says that this will work – It will work. After all, What have

you  got to lose?

SORRY EVERYBODY.. JUST HAD TO TAKE THE CHANCE!!! I’m an attorney,

And I know the law. This thing is for real. Rest assured AOL and

&nbs p;  Intel will follow through with their promises for fear of
facing

a

multimillion-dollar class action suit similar to the one filed by

PepsiCo against General Electric not too long ago.

Dear Friends; Please do not take this for a junk letter. Bill

Gates

sharing his fortune. If you ignore this, You will repent later.

Microsoft and AOL are now the largest Internet companies and in

an

effort to make sure that Internet Explorer remains the most

widely

used program, Microsoft and AOL are running an e-mail beta test.

When you forward this e-mail to friends, Microsoft can and wi ll

track it (If you are a Microsoft Windows user) For a two weeks

time

period.

For every person that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft will pay

you  $245.00 For every person that you sent it to that forwards it on,

Microsoft will pay you $243.00 and for every third person that receives

it, You will be paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will contact

you  for your address and then send you a check.

Regards. Charles S Bailey General Manager Field Operations

1-800-842-2332 Ext. 1085 or 904-1085 or RNX

292-1085 Charles_Bailey@csx.com

Charles_bailey@csx.com

thought this was a scam myself, But two weeks after receiving this

e-mail  and forwarding it on. Microsoft contacted me for my address and

withindays, &! gt; receive a check for $24,800.00. You need to  respond

before the beta testing is over. If anyone can affoard this, Bill  gates

is the man.

It’s all marketing expense to him. Please forward this to as many

people  as possible. You are bound to get at least $10,000.00 We’re not

going to  help them out with their e-mail beta test without getting a

little  something for our time. My brother’s girlfriend got in on this a

few  months ago. When i went to visit him for the Baylor/UT game. She

showed me  her check. It was for the sum of $4,324.44 and was stamped

“Paid in full”

Like i said before, I know the law, and this is for real.

**************************************************************

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Poise Consulting Ltd” <caroline@poiseconsulting.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] PHENYLPROPANOLAMINE ….. This was 5 yrs ago, no need to panic!
Date: September 30, 2005 at 12:10:04 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

See below… also if u check that link to FDA page http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/ppa/  its dated yr 2000.  This ingredient has since been removed from all products listed (according to FDA)

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blppa.htm

Search
Urban Legends and Folklore
Phenylpropanolamine (PPA) Recall

Netlore Archive:  Forwarded emails warning that non-prescription medicines containing phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride may have adverse health effects were accurate at the time they were issued but are now mostly outdated

Description:  Email rumor
Circulating since:  Nov 2000
Status:  True/Outdated
Analysis:  See below

Email example contributed by Nancy, 12/06/00:
You may have heard this, or noticed that these products have been removed from the shelves.
Discard these Medications
subject: Phenylpropanolamine
Stop taking anything containing this ingredient. It has been linked to increased hemorrhagic stroke (bleeding in brain) among women ages 18-49 in the three days after starting use of medication. Problems were not found in men, but the FDA recommended that everyone (even children) seek alternative medicine. The following medications contain Phenylpropanolamine:
Alka-Seltzer Plus Children’s Cold Medicine Effervescent 
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold medicine (cherry or orange) 
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold Medicine Original 
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Cough Medicine Effervescent 
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Flu Medicine Effervescent 
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Sinus Effervescent 
Alka Seltzer Plus Nighttime cold Medicine Effervescent 
BC Allergy Sinus Cold Powder 
BC Sinus Cold Powder 
Comtrex Deep Chest Cold & Congestion Relief 
Comtrex Flu Therapy & Fever Relief Day & Night 
Contac 12-Hour Cold Capsules 
Contac 12 Hour Caplets 
Coricidin D Cold, Flu & Sinus 
Dimetapp Cold & Allergy Chewable Tablets 
Dimetapp Cold & Cough Liqui-Gels 
Dimetapp DM cold & Cough Elixir 
Dimetapp Elixir 
Dimetapp 4 Hour Liqui Gels 
Dimetapp 4 Hour Tablets 
Dimetapp 12 Hour Extentabs Tablets 
Naldecon DX Pediatric Drops 
Permathene Mega-16 
Robitussin CF 
Tavist-D 12 Hour Relief of Sinus & Nasal Congestion 
Triaminic DM Cough Relief 
Triaminic Expectorant Chest & Head Congestion 
Triaminic Syrup Cold & Allergy 
Triaminic Triaminicol Cold & Cough 
Acutrim Diet Gum Appetite Suppressant Plus 
Dietary Supplements 
Acutrim Maximum Strength Appetite Control 
Dexatrim Caffeine Free 
Dexatrim Extended Duration 
Dexatrim Gelcaps 
Dexatrim Vitamin C/Caffeine Free
Please discard any of these medications as soon as possible
Update:  Most if not all of the products listed above which formerly contained phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride have been reformulated to eliminate the ingredient. Consumer questions about phenylpropanolamine and its potential health hazards may be directed to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration at 1-888-INFO-FDA.
Some manufacturers of over-the-counter medicines containing phenylpropanolamine have offered refunds to consumers who purchased the products before they were voluntarily recalled in late 2000. To inquire about the availability of such refunds, dial the 800-number for consumer questions listed on the product packaging.
Comments by Carla Homan:  This email has it mostly right. In November 2000, the FDA issued a public health advisory about phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride (PPA), the drug mentioned in the email. This drug is found in many over the counter (OTC) medicines, specifically in cold and flu remedies, as well as appetite suppressants. The drug will likely be banned, but because this process takes time, the FDA issued the health advisory in the meantime and manufacturers are voluntarily recalling and/or reformulating medicines containing PPA.
The main problem with this drug is that it elevates your risk of having a hemorrhagic stroke, especially with (but not limited to) first time use among women. Because the uses of PPA are not serious enough to warrant taking even that small chance, the FDA recommends that you stop taking any medications containing the drug.
Rather than looking at a limited list such as the one contained in the above email, you’d be better off checking the package of any cold, flu or appetite suppressant medication for the drug, which will appear in the list of active ingredients and may be listed as phenylpropanolamine, phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride, or phenylpropanolamine bitartrate. Many manufacturers offer several formulations of their cold and flu remedies, some of which do not contain PPA. Pseudoephedrine is an effective alternative to PPA for use in cold and flue preparations, but unfortunately, there is no approved alternative OTC drug for use in appetite suppressants. Therefore, if you are using any OTC medications to suppress your appetite for weight loss or other reasons, you should stop using the medicine and talk to your doctor about getting a prescription drug instead. Additionally, some prescription decongestants and cold and flu preparations contain PPA, so if you are using any prescription medicines for these purposes, talk to the prescribing doctor to see if you should continue using the medicine.
One word of caution: Though the email states your risk is for “increased hemorrhagic stroke (bleeding in brain) among women ages 18-49 in the three days after starting use of medication,” don’t think you are safe if you’ve used the drug for longer than three days. The three-day window was merely one of the guidelines used in the study that prompted the health advisory; for the study, they defined PPA exposure as having used PPA within three days prior to the stroke. Risk of stroke may be present after three days of use. For detailed information, see the final report of the Hemorrhagic Stroke Project, Web-published by the FDA.
As always, your best resources for reliable information on medicines and medical conditions are your own physician and pharmacist.

Email This Article
Sources and further reading:
Public Health Advisory: PPA
U.S. Food & Drug Administration
Phenylpropanolamine (PPA) Information Page
U.S. Food & Drug Administration
Carla Homan is a writer and researcher based in Washington, D.C.

(Last updated: 02/03/05)

Urban Legends and Folklore
 Phenylpropanolamine (PPA) Recall 

Netlore Archive:  Forwarded emails warning that non-prescription medicines containing phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride may have adverse health effects were accurate at the time they were issued but are now mostly outdated 

Description:  Email rumor
Circulating since:  Nov 2000
Status:  True/Outdated
Analysis:  See below  


Email example contributed by Nancy, 12/06/00:

You may have heard this, or noticed that these products have been removed from the shelves.

Discard these Medications

subject: Phenylpropanolamine

Stop taking anything containing this ingredient. It has been linked to increased hemorrhagic stroke (bleeding in brain) among women ages 18-49 in the three days after starting use of medication. Problems were not found in men, but the FDA recommended that everyone (even children) seek alternative medicine. The following medications contain Phenylpropanolamine:

Alka-Seltzer Plus Children’s Cold Medicine Effervescent
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold medicine (cherry or orange)
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold Medicine Original
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Cough Medicine Effervescent
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Flu Medicine Effervescent
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Sinus Effervescent
Alka Seltzer Plus Nighttime cold Medicine Effervescent
BC Allergy Sinus Cold Powder
BC Sinus Cold Powder
Comtrex Deep Chest Cold & Congestion Relief
Comtrex Flu Therapy & Fever Relief Day & Night
Contac 12-Hour Cold Capsules
Contac 12 Hour Caplets
Coricidin D Cold, Flu & Sinus
Dimetapp Cold & Allergy Chewable Tablets
Dimetapp Cold & Cough Liqui-Gels
Dimetapp DM cold & Cough Elixir
Dimetapp Elixir
Dimetapp 4 Hour Liqui Gels
Dimetapp 4 Hour Tablets
Dimetapp 12 Hour Extentabs Tablets
Naldecon DX Pediatric Drops
Permathene Mega-16
Robitussin CF
Tavist-D 12 Hour Relief of Sinus & Nasal Congestion
Triaminic DM Cough Relief
Triaminic Expectorant Chest & Head Congestion
Triaminic Syrup Cold & Allergy
Triaminic Triaminicol Cold & Cough
Acutrim Diet Gum Appetite Suppressant Plus
Dietary Supplements
Acutrim Maximum Strength Appetite Control
Dexatrim Caffeine Free
Dexatrim Extended Duration
Dexatrim Gelcaps
Dexatrim Vitamin C/Caffeine Free

Please discard any of these medications as soon as possible




Update:  Most if not all of the products listed above which formerly contained phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride have been reformulated to eliminate the ingredient. Consumer questions about phenylpropanolamine and its potential health hazards may be directed to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration at 1-888-INFO-FDA.

Some manufacturers of over-the-counter medicines containing phenylpropanolamine have offered refunds to consumers who purchased the products before they were voluntarily recalled in late 2000. To inquire about the availability of such refunds, dial the 800-number for consumer questions listed on the product packaging.

Comments by Carla Homan:  This email has it mostly right. In November 2000, the FDA issued a public health advisory about phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride (PPA), the drug mentioned in the email. This drug is found in many over the counter (OTC) medicines, specifically in cold and flu remedies, as well as appetite suppressants. The drug will likely be banned, but because this process takes time, the FDA issued the health advisory in the meantime and manufacturers are voluntarily recalling and/or reformulating medicines containing PPA.

The main problem with this drug is that it elevates your risk of having a hemorrhagic stroke, especially with (but not limited to) first time use among women. Because the uses of PPA are not serious enough to warrant taking even that small chance, the FDA recommends that you stop taking any medications containing the drug.

Rather than looking at a limited list such as the one contained in the above email, you’d be better off checking the package of any cold, flu or appetite suppressant medication for the drug, which will appear in the list of active ingredients and may be listed as phenylpropanolamine, phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride, or phenylpropanolamine bitartrate. Many manufacturers offer several formulations of their cold and flu remedies, some of which do not contain PPA. Pseudoephedrine is an effective alternative to PPA for use in cold and flue preparations, but unfortunately, there is no approved alternative OTC drug for use in appetite suppressants. Therefore, if you are using any OTC medications to suppress your appetite for weight loss or other reasons, you should stop using the medicine and talk to your doctor about getting a prescription drug instead. Additionally, some prescription decongestants and cold and flu preparations contain PPA, so if you are using any prescription medicines for these purposes, talk to the prescribing doctor to see if you should continue using the medicine.

One word of caution: Though the email states your risk is for “increased hemorrhagic stroke (bleeding in brain) among women ages 18-49 in the three days after starting use of medication,” don’t think you are safe if you’ve used the drug for longer than three days. The three-day window was merely one of the guidelines used in the study that prompted the health advisory; for the study, they defined PPA exposure as having used PPA within three days prior to the stroke. Risk of stroke may be present after three days of use. For detailed information, see the final report of the Hemorrhagic Stroke Project, Web-published by the FDA.

As always, your best resources for reliable information on medicines and medical conditions are your own physician and pharmacist.




Email This Article

Sources and further reading:

Public Health Advisory: PPA
U.S. Food & Drug Administration
Phenylpropanolamine (PPA) Information Page
U.S. Food & Drug Administration





——————————————————————————–

Carla Homan is a writer and researcher based in Washington, D.C.

——————————————————————————–


(Last updated: 02/03/05)


Current Netlore

From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 8:42:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt-

Please keep us informed on your package, (hehe!) and your progress and experience. Randy, Congrats, are you saying you’re not craving a year later??

Thanx–
Don

matthew zielinski wrote:
Same here brother
u must be proud of ur self…..keep it up
im still waiting for my package and hopefully by this time next year i will be able to say im clean 365 days
love
matt

 

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:23:29 -0400
Same here Randy, sorry I didn’t respond sooner.
Congrats on your happiness and everything else positive going for you right now.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

Hey Randy,

Happy anniversary brother. I love you.

love, Jasen
—– Original Message —– From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears. Love and laughter Randy

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 1:45:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Same here brother
u must be proud of ur self…..keep it up
im still waiting for my package and hopefully by this time next year i will be able to say im clean 365 days
love
matt

 

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:23:29 -0400
Same here Randy, sorry I didn’t respond sooner.
Congrats on your happiness and everything else positive going for you right now.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

Hey Randy,

Happy anniversary brother. I love you.

love, Jasen
—– Original Message —– From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears. Love and laughter Randy

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 12:23:29 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Same here Randy, sorry I didn’t respond sooner.
Congrats on your happiness and everything else positive going for you right now.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

Hey Randy,

Happy anniversary brother. I love you.

love, Jasen
—– Original Message —– From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears.    Love and laughter Randy

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 12:19:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Skeeter! We kinda started this journey together and I’m just so glad things have worked out for you the way they did. Especially from the begining with our insightful, wonderfully spacy, friend from out west going up to the catskills to faciluate your session. It couldn’t have worked out better and no one deserves it more than you. Your one of the most genuine people I’ve met. Glad our Bklyn sinicisim hasnt rubbed of on you that much.
I can’t belive a year went but this fast… Boy were you nuts a year ago!!! :o)
Love to your son and your mom and we’ll look forward to seeing you when your back this way. As long as you let me drive. -M.

From:  Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date:  Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:44:00 -0700
>Happy “bwiti”-birth dawn, Mister Biscuit.  You inspire us.  Love, Jeff
>and Rachel (escaped to California again to admire a new niece and look
>at the stars in Sonoma County)
>
>
>   /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>   \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

With MSN Spaces email straight to your blog. Upload jokes, photos and more. It’s free! /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 11:44:00 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Happy “bwiti”-birth dawn, Mister Biscuit.  You inspire us.  Love, Jeff
and Rachel (escaped to California again to admire a new niece and look
at the stars in Sonoma County)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 29, 2005 at 11:27:43 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 03:21:26 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]

In one of my early iboga experiences it seemed that I saw
components of my mind like a cutaway view of organs in the body,
making their contributions to what I experienced as thought. I
wish I could get another look at that 🙂

Yes, it sounds amazing. They say a lot of different emotions come
from different places in the body – liver-anger, kidneys-fear,
etc.
I often like to think I have really coherent thought patterns,
quite amusing to see it just as a collection of organs all just
rabbiting away!

Perfect description of what I saw. (I’m still trying to figure out
from what vantage point.)

This thing about masks presupposes that there is someone who
can pull them off, and finally there isn’t.

Who can say about ‘finally’.

No one!

That settles it 🙂

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 29, 2005 at 11:05:10 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:47:01 -0700 Jasen Chamoun
<jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
.

ok, then donīt make anything.

everything returns to the One.
where does the one return to?

The “one” also re turns to the one,which returns to the
one who returns. No end or beginning. Never ending.

It reminds me of a Santo Daime hymn:

this is the whole
that is the whole
wholeness emerges from wholeness

wholeness emerging from who-o-olness
wholeness still remains

Alternate answer to ekki’s question: the one returns to everything,
and probably to nothing along the way.. possibly there are no wrong
answers here.. and all answers are wrong.. eureka, I lost it! 🙂

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 10:38:15 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy, Has it been a year?!! My, My, MY!! Time flies!
I am so proud of and happy for you! Heres wishing your journey through this life will be wondrous and fascinating!
Hugs and hugs!
Callie

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 10:12:22 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy, you rock…..it’ll be a year for me mid-October….

Congratulations,

J.

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

From: “Boris” <bleshins@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Vigabatrin + ibogaine?
Date: September 29, 2005 at 7:51:19 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Would anyone know if this would be a safe combination?

Vigabatrin (sold as Sabril or Sabrilex) is a GABAergic anti-convulsant
medication usually taken by epileptics. Some studies have shown it is
effective for cravings. It’s in the same family of drugs as Neurontin.

People have said before benzodiazapines are quite safe to take with
ibogaine, right? Benzos being a subclass of GABAergic anti-convulsants
themselves, could this extend to drugs like Vigabatrin, Neurontin etc?

Thanks!
Boris

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 29, 2005 at 6:21:26 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 29 September 2005 02:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 06:05:35 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 25 September 2005 19:21
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] masks and void

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something
rather
than nothing.

I think it’s a universal truth for consciousness. If your mind is
reasonably
clear you can become aware that all the thoughts are just arising
out of
nowhere and going back there. The whole experience of having a
personality
is just constructed though identification with the process of
thought. No
parents, no god, no nothing even. Sounds quite liberating when I
think about
it, often quite scary when I’m going there.

In one of my early iboga experiences it seemed that I saw
components of my mind like a cutaway view of organs in the body,
making their contributions to what I experienced as thought. I wish
I could get another look at that 🙂

Yes, it sounds amazing. They say a lot of different emotions come from
different places in the body – liver-anger, kidneys-fear, etc. I often like
to think I have really coherent thought patterns, quite amusing to see it
just as a collection of organs all just rabbiting away!

This thing about masks presupposes that there is someone who can
pull them
off, and finally there isn’t.

Who can say about ‘finally’.

No one!

Nick

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

/]=—————————————————————
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\]=—————————————————————
——=[/

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 29, 2005 at 2:49:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,

Happy anniversary brother. I love you.

love, Jasen
—– Original Message —–
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears.    Love and laughter    Randy

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 29, 2005 at 2:47:01 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

.

ok, then don´t make anything.

everything returns to the One.
where does the one return to?

The “one” also re turns to the one,which returns to the
one who returns. No end or beginning. Never ending.

Just my opinion.

love, Jasen

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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 29, 2005 at 2:32:13 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wow! you guys are too deep for my head!
Callie 😉

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 29, 2005 at 2:16:58 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 29.09.2005 um 03:18 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:18:49 -0700 ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 25.09.2005 um 20:20 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something
rather than nothing.
make god and parents disappear & see what is behind.

I think if you make anything disappear you are just in your ego
playing a mind game.

ok, then don´t make anything.

everything returns to the One.
where does the one return to?

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Supernatural
Date: September 29, 2005 at 2:12:35 AM EDT
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
Graham Hancock’s newest book, due to be published Oct. 6 (not sure if that’s in England of both England AND the US, but I think both) STARTS with him taking ibogaine on a sofa in Bath, England.
He contributed a couple of chapters to my new book, coming out in late October, about lost civilizations. When I contacted him to possibly contribute, he told me then that he might be a little late with a contribution due to working on a new project- Supernatural, a book about drugs and the roots of religion. He’s one of my big inspirations in terms of reading/reasearching about lost civilizations and such (He wrote Fingerprints of the Gods, Heaven’s Mirror, and many others), and to find out he was working on a book about drugs, when I’d just put out a book about drugs, and now I was working on one about lost civilizations, semmed somehow like synchronicity.
So I said to him when he said “drugs” and “roots of religion” in the same sentence, “hey, if that’s the case, you might want to look into this very interesting African root called Ibogaine. He wrote back saying he’d not only heard of it but had just recently taken it, along with having traveled around the world taking all sorts of mind expanding plant substances. When I mentioned Supernatural to Daniel Pinchbeck a few nights ago, he said it sounded a lot like his book Breaking Open the Head, but I think Supernatural at least appears from my quick glimpses so far to be much more expansive and inclusive. I can’t wait to read, and hopefully review it for High Times. Keeps you eyes peeled, this is a good one. (It also reminds me of Dan Russell’s Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda” btw.)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Chapter One.., Sean
Date: September 29, 2005 at 1:59:58 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Recentlly, I  had a strong death Mushroom experience, which change
my life ,I have faced death more then few times,where there is no 911, and
not from drugs but very high fever, malaria…

Stephen wrote:
” do good every chance you get.., because
eventually, we will all get to know about Death…” yes, that’s the
insight I got  too,then all the masks will fall off by themselves.
the Ancestors asked me to come down of the tree in the rainforest,
they told me I was to live this life and “do good every chance you get”…
there is no end to life, there is only transformation and that process
takes time and is painful. the transformation starts already in this life
around 45 years old.

Sara

Dear people of the list.., and especially friends of Sean..,

I am sorry that I never had the opportunity to meet  Sean, because I
know, from the friends that loved and grieve for him, that he  was a
special
person…  I also know, that his death was a tragic accident,  and In no
way did I
mean to imply that it was anything else…

My purpose in writing here, is simply to take  this second opportunity
to
tell my story again, in the hope that it may not go  unnoticed by someone
who
may not have read it previously, and that it may be  instrumental in
saving
someone’s life…  May it be a tribute to  Sean…

I am sure that Sean had no intention of dying  (neither consciously,
sub-consciously, unconsciously, or whatever) when he took  just a little
too much
methadone.., no more than I did, when I over-dosed on  mushrooms… But
accidents do happen, and sometimes, accidents cause an  “encounter with
death”,
which, if you have a little “survival  information”, you can survive the
experience…

You get no feedback from the dead.., only from the  survivors…

The thing to know, is that drugs do not kill you  instantly!..  It is
a
gradual escalation to the “Brink of Death”.., and  death does not present
itself as something ugly, or terrifying!..  on the  contrary.., it is
seductive,
and intriguing, and mysterious, it is the most  ancient of riddles, which
you
may be tempted to explore, and it is the  ultimate seduction, because if
you
choose to know.., you die!..  And it all  seems so logical at the time!..

But you have a choice!  There is a brief  window of opportunity.., a
decision is made at this point.., to go .., or to  stay.., and if you
don’t know
about it.., you may be seduced into going.., just  to see.., and you will
die!..  But Now You  Know!., (from a survivor) about this window of
opportunity!.,
and  you can now recognize it, and it is at this point that you will call:
911, and  save your life, and put it to good use, and be the Hero of your
life,
to your  friends and family, and do good every chance you get.., because
eventually, we will all get to know about Death…

Survive and be well.., Stephen

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 28, 2005 at 9:18:45 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:18:49 -0700 ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 25.09.2005 um 20:20 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something
rather than nothing.
make god and parents disappear & see what is behind.

I think if you make anything disappear you are just in your ego
playing a mind game.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 28, 2005 at 9:16:51 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 06:05:35 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 25 September 2005 19:21
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] masks and void

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something
rather
than nothing.

I think it’s a universal truth for consciousness. If your mind is
reasonably
clear you can become aware that all the thoughts are just arising
out of
nowhere and going back there. The whole experience of having a
personality
is just constructed though identification with the process of
thought. No
parents, no god, no nothing even. Sounds quite liberating when I
think about
it, often quite scary when I’m going there.

In one of my early iboga experiences it seemed that I saw
components of my mind like a cutaway view of organs in the body,
making their contributions to what I experienced as thought. I wish
I could get another look at that 🙂

This thing about masks presupposes that there is someone who can
pull them
off, and finally there isn’t.

Who can say about ‘finally’.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT Indigo children link
Date: September 28, 2005 at 8:11:45 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

For anyone who may be interested in the Indigo children, a link to a site with interviews etc from a documentary coming up.
http://www.theindigoevolution.com/

From: Polecat256@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Chapter One.., Sean
Date: September 28, 2005 at 7:16:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Polecat256@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear people of the list.., and especially friends of Sean..,

I am sorry that I never had the opportunity to meet Sean, because I know, from the friends that loved and grieve for him, that he was a special person…  I also know, that his death was a tragic accident, and In no way did I mean to imply that it was anything else…

My purpose in writing here, is simply to take this second opportunity to tell my story again, in the hope that it may not go unnoticed by someone who may not have read it previously, and that it may be instrumental in saving someone’s life…  May it be a tribute to Sean…

I am sure that Sean had no intention of dying (neither consciously, sub-consciously, unconsciously, or whatever) when he took just a little too much methadone.., no more than I did, when I over-dosed on mushrooms… But accidents do happen, and sometimes, accidents cause an “encounter with death”, which, if you have a little “survival information”, you can survive the experience…

You get no feedback from the dead.., only from the survivors…

The thing to know, is that drugs do not kill you instantly!..  It is a gradual escalation to the “Brink of Death”.., and death does not present itself as something ugly, or terrifying!..  on the contrary.., it is seductive, and intriguing, and mysterious, it is the most ancient of riddles, which you may be tempted to explore, and it is the ultimate seduction, because if you choose to know.., you die!..  And it all seems so logical at the time!..

But you have a choice!  There is a brief window of opportunity.., a decision is made at this point.., to go .., or to stay.., and if you don’t know about it.., you may be seduced into going.., just to see.., and you will die!..  But Now You Know!., (from a survivor) about this window of opportunity!., and you can now recognize it, and it is at this point that you will call: 911, and save your life, and put it to good use, and be the Hero of your life, to your friends and family, and do good every chance you get.., because eventually, we will all get to know about Death…

Survive and be well.., Stephen
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 28, 2005 at 7:05:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 28.09.2005 um 21:27 schrieb biscuitboy714@aol.com:

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears.    Love and laughter    Randy

cooooool!

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 28, 2005 at 7:04:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 29.09.2005 um 00:07 schrieb Nick Sandberg:

Hi Ekki,

OK, sorry, must be confusing you with someone else. I thought someone wrote
recently about only having nice trips.
really? what a jerk!
Sorry about that. About repression,
well, I also have a love-hate relationship with the concept. Therapy
likewise. I agree that people get very locked into it, which maybe is
something they need to do for a while, but at some point it’s nice to come
out of that room.

I look forward to not struggling with all the issues of our teen years, btw!
Should have spent more time in the disco.

Nick

i didn´t know you could be that funny 😉
cheers ekki

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 28, 2005 at 6:50:19 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

:o) Sweet as Randy, feeling your joy with you.
And, I for one am also glad you didn’t have to go peeing on no Spark Plug wire!!!! (I aint got the tackle, and I can feel that LOL)
Living in hope
Kirk :o)
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com [mailto:biscuitboy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2005 7:27 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears.    Love and laughter    Randy
—–Original Message—–
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:12:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
I would like to see the difference myself for the same reqason that Jasen was stating here. I was wondering if maybe the extract would be better for Methadone withdrawal. My buddy Marc and I were talking about this the other day. Maybe use Hcl. for the initial test and flood and then use the extract for residual withdrawal. It’s worth looking at. I know for me the residuals were enough to make me want to use again, but of course I was pretty much a puss when it comes to that kind of thing. I’m glad that God, or chaos, or whatever, interveined and I snapped out of it. I always said that if pissing on a spark plug wire with the motor runnin’ would get me off the ‘done I would do it. I’m soooooooo glad that it didn’t come to me having to try that.        “Take a little dope, and walk out in the air, the stars are all conected to your brain”       The Who    (Daddy Pete)     Randy
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Oh, duh, I see. 
Thanks for the tip. I would like to see if there would be a difference. 
 
 
Peace and love, 
Preston 
”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness” 
Richard Davenport-Hines 
 
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 
Editor http://www.drugwar.com 
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs” 
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005) 
Cont. High Times mag/.com 
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com 
Columnist New York Waste 
Etc. 
 
—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au> 
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:19 AM 
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation 
 
> *Hey Preston, 
> 
> I mean I wonder if there would be a difference between Iboga extract 
> and Ibogaine for you. I have always been curious as to how different 
> the benefits for some people between Ibogaine and the Iboga extract. 
> 
> Maybe Iboga is better for one and Ibogaine better for another in some 
> cases,..just a thought. 
> 
> It would really be interesting if next time you decided to have a full > dose, 
> you tried the Iboga extract to see if there is any difference for you. 
> 
> > love, Jasen 
> 
> 
>> Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for 
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.< 
>> 
>> I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please put it in >> different wording for me, please? 
>> Thanks kindly. 
>> 
>> 
>> Peace and love, 
>> Preston 
>> 
>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often >> mistaken for madness” 
>> Richard Davenport-Hines 
>> 
>> 
>> —– Original Message —– >> From: Jasen Chamoun 
> 
>> Hey Preston, 
>> 
>> I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”. 
>> 
>> I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for 
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see. 
>> 
>> love, Jasen 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > /]=———————————————————————=[\ 
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> > \]=———————————————————————=[/ 
> 
>  
 
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 28, 2005 at 6:07:26 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Nick
i also find the Osho-approach cool. i met a number of nice former
sanyasins at zen groups. one woman, a cheerful american lesbian, had
been active full-time in poona and oregon for years before she became
the abbot of a zen school in berlin where i used to practice.

you are right some buddhists are locked up tight and can´t feel but i
also met totally different characters there.

about the whole thing with body, encounter, sexuality, emotional
release etc. it is nice if you can do that in a therapist setting but
you also can have that in another surrounding. that is basically what
youth/underground cultures are about. a lot of people live that stuff
intensly in their teens and early twens. somehow you never stop to
struggle with those things in life, don´t you?

do you seriously think all those non-repression-centered forms of
therapy like behavioural, systemic, paradox interventions, gestalt etc.
etc. do not work? practice proves they work very well.

where you did get the idea that buddhism is about letting your
conscious deepen until there is pure silence? it´s news to me. anyway i
don´t care about buddhism, i am not a buddhist. i only like to practice
zen. the formal part is sitting, bowing, chanting, koan.

the whole repression thing is a certain system (originally invented by
freud) to look at things. you can believe in it and work with it but to
label everyone “repressed & needs therapy” is not good for you. narrows
your perspective.

i wrote a number of times here that i saw very dark landscapes on
ibogaine and that the first 3 major trips were not easy fun all the
time. Nick, didn´t you have marvelous experiences and a really good
time on ibogaine, too? it´s really way beyond good and bad isn´t it?
anyway i am not the only one here who likes it.

Hi Ekki,

OK, sorry, must be confusing you with someone else. I thought someone wrote
recently about only having nice trips. Sorry about that. About repression,
well, I also have a love-hate relationship with the concept. Therapy
likewise. I agree that people get very locked into it, which maybe is
something they need to do for a while, but at some point it’s nice to come
out of that room.

I look forward to not struggling with all the issues of our teen years, btw!
Should have spent more time in the disco.

Nick

about heroin it was a dream from my early teens come true. i felt i
needed to do that and it was cool. especially the withdrawals were
quite an experience. i discovered new dimensions of suffering. and then
the desperation and self-doubt when you cannot stop even if you badly
want to. wow!  luckily there was a happy end with ibogaine.
i feel for everyone who goes through withdrawals and i also have deep
respect for everyone who stays clean after being hooked for a few
years. burroughs called the junky experience “the secret school”.

but anyway i wouldn´t do something so self-centered any more.

thank you for the discussion so far.

yours
ekki

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From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 28, 2005 at 5:25:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Find just what you’re after with the new, more precise MSN Search – try it now! /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 28, 2005 at 4:17:13 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow!!  What a day that was.  Exciting and somewhat scary at the same time.  What a year!  I wish as
great a year for everyone who seeks as it has been for us.  I am very pround of you and all your hard work
and determination .

love,
Mama
—– Original Message —–
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears.    Love and laughter    Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:12:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

I would like to see the difference myself for the same reqason that Jasen was stating here. I was wondering if maybe the extract would be better for Methadone withdrawal. My buddy Marc and I were talking about this the other day. Maybe use Hcl. for the initial test and flood and then use the extract for residual withdrawal. It’s worth looking at. I know for me the residuals were enough to make me want to use again, but of course I was pretty much a puss when it comes to that kind of thing. I’m glad that God, or chaos, or whatever, interveined and I snapped out of it. I always said that if pissing on a spark plug wire with the motor runnin’ would get me off the ‘done I would do it. I’m soooooooo glad that it didn’t come to me having to try that.        “Take a little dope, and walk out in the air, the stars are all conected to your brain”       The Who    (Daddy Pete)     Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Oh, duh, I see.
Thanks for the tip. I would like to see if there would be a difference.

Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

> *Hey Preston,
>
> I mean I wonder if there would be a difference between Iboga extract
> and Ibogaine for you. I have always been curious as to how different
> the benefits for some people between Ibogaine and the Iboga extract.
>
> Maybe Iboga is better for one and Ibogaine better for another in some
> cases,..just a thought.
>
> It would really be interesting if next time you decided to have a full > dose,
> you tried the Iboga extract to see if there is any difference for you.
>
> > love, Jasen
>
>
>> Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.<
>>
>> I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please put it in >> different wording for me, please?
>> Thanks kindly.
>>
>>
>> Peace and love,
>> Preston
>>
>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often >> mistaken for madness”
>> Richard Davenport-Hines
>>
>>
>> —– Original Message —– >> From: Jasen Chamoun
>
>> Hey Preston,
>>
>> I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.
>>
>> I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.
>>
>> love, Jasen
>
>
>
>
> > /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html > [%]
> > \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HELP I need to celebrate
Date: September 28, 2005 at 3:27:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I forgot to tell yall. On this day last year at 5:00 pm I took a test dose and started my journey. I can’t believe that I am doing all the things I am doing. I always made good plans I just couldn’t follow through on them. It’s different today and I’m grateful to the point of tears.    Love and laughter    Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:12:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

I would like to see the difference myself for the same reqason that Jasen was stating here. I was wondering if maybe the extract would be better for Methadone withdrawal. My buddy Marc and I were talking about this the other day. Maybe use Hcl. for the initial test and flood and then use the extract for residual withdrawal. It’s worth looking at. I know for me the residuals were enough to make me want to use again, but of course I was pretty much a puss when it comes to that kind of thing. I’m glad that God, or chaos, or whatever, interveined and I snapped out of it. I always said that if pissing on a spark plug wire with the motor runnin’ would get me off the ‘done I would do it. I’m soooooooo glad that it didn’t come to me having to try that.        “Take a little dope, and walk out in the air, the stars are all conected to your brain”       The Who    (Daddy Pete)     Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Oh, duh, I see.
Thanks for the tip. I would like to see if there would be a difference.

Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

> *Hey Preston,
>
> I mean I wonder if there would be a difference between Iboga extract
> and Ibogaine for you. I have always been curious as to how different
> the benefits for some people between Ibogaine and the Iboga extract.
>
> Maybe Iboga is better for one and Ibogaine better for another in some
> cases,..just a thought.
>
> It would really be interesting if next time you decided to have a full > dose,
> you tried the Iboga extract to see if there is any difference for you.
>
> > love, Jasen
>
>
>> Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.<
>>
>> I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please put it in >> different wording for me, please?
>> Thanks kindly.
>>
>>
>> Peace and love,
>> Preston
>>
>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often >> mistaken for madness”
>> Richard Davenport-Hines
>>
>>
>> —– Original Message —– >> From: Jasen Chamoun
>
>> Hey Preston,
>>
>> I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.
>>
>> I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.
>>
>> love, Jasen
>
>
>
>
> > /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html > [%]
> > \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 28, 2005 at 2:12:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would like to see the difference myself for the same reqason that Jasen was stating here. I was wondering if maybe the extract would be better for Methadone withdrawal. My buddy Marc and I were talking about this the other day. Maybe use Hcl. for the initial test and flood and then use the extract for residual withdrawal. It’s worth looking at. I know for me the residuals were enough to make me want to use again, but of course I was pretty much a puss when it comes to that kind of thing. I’m glad that God, or chaos, or whatever, interveined and I snapped out of it. I always said that if pissing on a spark plug wire with the motor runnin’ would get me off the ‘done I would do it. I’m soooooooo glad that it didn’t come to me having to try that.        “Take a little dope, and walk out in the air, the stars are all conected to your brain”       The Who    (Daddy Pete)     Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Oh, duh, I see.
Thanks for the tip. I would like to see if there would be a difference.

Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

> *Hey Preston,
>
> I mean I wonder if there would be a difference between Iboga extract
> and Ibogaine for you. I have always been curious as to how different
> the benefits for some people between Ibogaine and the Iboga extract.
>
> Maybe Iboga is better for one and Ibogaine better for another in some
> cases,..just a thought.
>
> It would really be interesting if next time you decided to have a full > dose,
> you tried the Iboga extract to see if there is any difference for you.
>
> > love, Jasen
>
>
>> Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.<
>>
>> I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please put it in >> different wording for me, please?
>> Thanks kindly.
>>
>>
>> Peace and love,
>> Preston
>>
>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often >> mistaken for madness”
>> Richard Davenport-Hines
>>
>>
>> —– Original Message —– >> From: Jasen Chamoun
>
>> Hey Preston,
>>
>> I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.
>>
>> I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>> you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.
>>
>> love, Jasen
>
>
>
>
> > /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html > [%]
> > \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 28, 2005 at 11:22:21 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was saying that if Preston didn’t feel he was benifiting from ibogaine as far as addiction interuption was concerned and his alternative was laying down and kicking (which he hasnt done in a long time) or checking himself into a hospital justing chilling out, reading and watching TV  and getting physically healthy for 10 days would be nothing short of a harm reduction method. Also as I told Preston, you are no longer required to attend metting because its now considered a religion based program or something.
Anyway I still say that if Ibogaine is not an option or not helping anymore maybe 10 days out of his envoirnment could be good. I know its what I’d probably do.
I took ibogaine because laying down and kicking wasnt working out too well for me. But thats just me. People do it all the time and are sucessful.
Good luck Preston. Hopefully we’ll talk later. -M.

From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date:  Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:36:30 -0400
>Oh, duh, I see.
>Thanks for the tip. I would like to see if there would be a
>difference.
>
>
>
>Peace and love,
>Preston
>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
>often mistaken for madness”
>Richard Davenport-Hines
>
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
>Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out
>Sept. 2005)
>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun”
><jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:19 AM
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
>
>
>>  *Hey Preston,
>>
>>   I mean I wonder if there would be a difference between Iboga
>>extract
>>   and Ibogaine for you. I have always been curious as to how
>>different
>>   the benefits for some people between Ibogaine and the Iboga
>>extract.
>>
>>  Maybe Iboga is better for one and Ibogaine better for another in
>>some
>>  cases,..just a thought.
>>
>>  It would really be interesting if next time you decided to have a
>>full dose,
>>  you tried the Iboga extract to see if there is any difference for
>>you.
>>
>>
>>love, Jasen
>>
>>
>>>Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>>>you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.<
>>>
>>>I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please
>>>put it in different wording for me, please?
>>>Thanks kindly.
>>>
>>>
>>>Peace and love,
>>>Preston
>>>
>>>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
>>>often mistaken for madness”
>>>Richard Davenport-Hines
>>>
>>>
>>>—– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun
>>
>>>Hey Preston,
>>>
>>>I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.
>>>
>>>I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
>>>you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.
>>>
>>>                                         love, Jasen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>/]=———————————————————————=[\
>>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
>>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>>
>>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

Find e-mail and documents on your PC instantly with the new MSN Search Toolbar–FREE! /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I want to…….
Date: September 28, 2005 at 10:57:54 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

were missing you in bklyn bubba. call skeeter when you get back. -m.

From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, ibogaine-owner@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I want to…….
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:44:03 -0400

Callie, I don’t know how to tell you to change that, but I do know it’s good to see you talking on the list about anything. Try and send a message to Mindvox or maybe even Patrick. I’m sure someone will hekp you. Does this mean you are going to post some? YEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAA southern girls rule.    Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine-owner@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:55:51 EDT
Subject: [Ibogaine] I want to…….

change from digest to individual e-mails. I am sorry but I do not remember how to do this. Will you please let me know by dropping me a line at
calliemimosa@aol.com.
Thanks in advance!
Callie

Get MSN Messenger with FREE Video Conversation – the next best thing to being there! /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I want to…….
Date: September 28, 2005 at 10:44:03 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, ibogaine-owner@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Callie, I don’t know how to tell you to change that, but I do know it’s good to see you talking on the list about anything. Try and send a message to Mindvox or maybe even Patrick. I’m sure someone will hekp you. Does this mean you are going to post some? YEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAA southern girls rule.    Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine-owner@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:55:51 EDT
Subject: [Ibogaine] I want to…….

change from digest to individual e-mails. I am sorry but I do not remember how to do this. Will you please let me know by dropping me a line at
calliemimosa@aol.com.
Thanks in advance!
Callie

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 28, 2005 at 9:36:52 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston,

I would guess you’d be looking at 3-5 days of physical discomfort, and possibly several weeks of psychological and sleep pattern re-adjustment.  Smoking pot and taking hot baths seemed to do wonders.   I don’t really know about MS Contin, but when I weened off methadone, I was taking 3-4 Morphine Sulphate 20mg tabs a day.  I took about 650 mg of Ibo(less than a therapeutic dose) to break the chemical dependency, and still experienced withdrawal symptoms, though they were largely minor and physical in nature (psychological withdrawal VASTLY reduced).  I don’t want to sound discouraging, but I still have sleeping problems, after nearly a year of opiate clean time.

You know what got me through it all?  Being sick and tired of being sick and tired- just like you said.  Ibo helped, but it was me who did the work….You can do it too, and I wish you well….

cheers,
Julie

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] PHENYLPROPANOLAMINE
Date: September 28, 2005 at 3:05:58 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All drugs containing PHENYLPROPANOLAMINE are being recalled.
You may want to try calling the 800 number listed on most drug boxes
and inquire
about a REFUND. Please read this
CAREFULLY. Also, please pass this on to everyone you know.

STOP TAKING anything containing this ingredient. It has been linked to
increased
hemorrhagic stroke (bleeding in brain)among women ages 18-49 in the
three days
after starting use of medication. Problems were not found in men, but
the FDA
recommended that everyone (even children) seek alternative medicine.

The following medications contain Phenylpropanolamine:

Acutrim Diet Gum Appetite Suppressant
Acutrim Plus Dietary Supplements
Acutrim Maximum Strength Appetite Control
Alka-Seltzer
Plus Children’s Cold Medicine Effervescent
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold medicine (cherry or orange)
Alka-Seltze! r Plus Cold Medicine Original
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Cough Medicine Effervescent
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Flu Medicine
Alka-Seltzer Plus Cold & Sinus Effervescent
Alka Seltzer Plus Night-Time Cold Medicine
BC Allergy Sinus Cold Powder
BC Sinus Cold Powder
Comtrex Flu Therapy & Fever Relief
Day & Night Contac 12-Hour Cold Capsules
Contac 12 Hour Caplets
Coricidin D Cold, Flu & Sinus
Dexatrim Caffeine Free
Dexatrim Extended Duration
Dexatrim Gelcaps
Dexatrim Vitamin C/Caffeine Free
Dimetapp Cold & Allergy Chewable Tablets
Dimetapp Cold & Cough Liqui-Gels
Dimetapp DM Cold & Cough Elixir
Dimetapp Elixir
Dimetapp 4 Hour Liquid Gels
Dimetapp 4 Hour Tablets
Dimetapp 12 Hour Extentabs
Tablets
Naldecon DX Pediatric Drops
Permathene Mega-16
Robitussin CF
Tavist-D 12 H! our Relief of Sinus & Nasal Congestion
Triaminic DM! Cough R el! ief
Triaminic Expectorant Chest & Head
Triaminic Syrup Cold & Allergy
Triaminic Triaminicol Cold & Cough …..

I just found out and called the 800# on the container for Triaminic
and they
informed me that they are voluntarily
recalling the following medicines because of a certain ingredient that
is
causing strokes and seizures in children:

Orange 3D Cold & Allergy Cherry (Pink)
3D Cold & Cough Berry
3D Cough Relief Yellow 3D Expectorant

They are asking you to call them at 800-548-3708 with the lot number
on the box
so they can send you postage for you
to send i t back to them, and they will also issue you a refund. If
you know of
anyone
else with small children, PLEASE PASS THIS ON. THIS IS SERIOUS
STUFF!

DO PASS ALONG TO ALL ON YOUR MAILING LIST so people are informed.
They>can then
pass it along to their families.

To confirm these findings please take time to check the following:
http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/ppa/ <
http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/ppa/>

PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO YOUR CHILDREN IN CASE THEY GIVE IT TO THEIR
CHILDREN OR
TO FRIENDS WHO HAVE CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.

_______________________________________

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 28, 2005 at 2:36:30 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oh, duh, I see.
Thanks for the tip. I would like to see if there would be a difference.

Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

*Hey Preston,

I mean I wonder if there would be a difference between Iboga extract
and Ibogaine for you. I have always been curious as to how different
the benefits for some people between Ibogaine and the Iboga extract.

Maybe Iboga is better for one and Ibogaine better for another in some
cases,..just a thought.

It would really be interesting if next time you decided to have a full dose,
you tried the Iboga extract to see if there is any difference for you.

love, Jasen

Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.<

I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please put it in different wording for me, please?
Thanks kindly.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun

Hey Preston,

I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.

I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.

love, Jasen

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 28, 2005 at 2:19:34 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

*Hey Preston,

I mean I wonder if there would be a difference between Iboga extract
and Ibogaine for you. I have always been curious as to how different
the benefits for some people between Ibogaine and the Iboga extract.

Maybe Iboga is better for one and Ibogaine better for another in some
cases,..just a thought.

It would really be interesting if next time you decided to have a full dose,
you tried the Iboga extract to see if there is any difference for you.

love, Jasen

Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.<

I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please put it in different wording for me, please?
Thanks kindly.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun

Hey Preston,

I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.

I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.

love, Jasen

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 28, 2005 at 12:53:20 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jason >I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.<

I’m not exactly sure what you mean here Jason. Could you please put it in different wording for me, please?
Thanks kindly.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: Jasen Chamoun
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Hey Preston,

I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.

I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.

love, Jasen
—– Original Message —– From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Hi Mark,
I haven’t considered typical “conventional detox” becauise I HATE the environment in those places, with a passion, and do not feel they have a single thing to offer me but THEIR version of what THEY think reality should be for EVERYONE and particularly me- or so I’ve ALWAYS found no matter which place I entered and tried out.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 11:58:11 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston,

I totaly agree with you about”conventional detox”.

I wonder,….if Iboga would be a better experience for
you in particular,..it would be interesting to see.

love, Jasen
—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Hi Mark,
I haven’t considered typical “conventional detox” becauise I HATE the environment in those places, with a passion, and do not feel they have a single thing to offer me but THEIR version of what THEY think reality should be for EVERYONE and particularly me- or so I’ve ALWAYS found no matter which place I entered and tried out.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean]
Date: September 27, 2005 at 9:19:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

last sept (one year) when i kicked heroin, besides patrick, sean was the
most helpful when it came to someone to talk to. it was amazing. i will
never forget him and his kind and thoughtful words.

its amazing how little pshycial distance effects the kindness people are
willing to share in desperate times.

btw.. this is the first time in forever since i posted on the list. just
wanted to let you guys know im here. just reading for now. sitting up in
the meta psychical corner of the bleachers known as the 1b0 list.
everything is well here and i hope all is well where you all might be.

rip sean. God bless.

nruhtra
www.dsskcorpc.com/ibidem

—————————- Original Message —————————-
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean
From:    “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Date:    Tue, September 27, 2005 3:00 pm
To:      ibogaine@mindvox.com
————————————————————————–

Sean was a friend of mine. He passed away seeming after drinking a bottle
of methadone and accidently overdosing which he had done several times
before. Sean had no intention of checking out when or where he did. I
don’t believe this was a matter of the subconcious either. He died because
he stopped breathing after drinking too much methadone. A tradgic mistake
that could have happened to any one of us when we are in the midst of
active addiction. He was planning on doing another treatment the week
after his untimely death. I don’t believe Sean wanted to die on any level
but he was unfortuatly living a life that wasn’t condusive to longevity.
Anyone who knew Sean was lucky to have known him. I wish we had have had
more time with him. He was one of the sweetest guys I’ve ever met. May he
rest in peace.   Welcome to the list Stephen. -M.
From:  ekki
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean (Chapter one)…
Date:  Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:39:11 +0200
hi Stephen
i take the freedom to welcome you to the list! Hello!
i like what you write.

best regards
ekki

Am 27.09.2005 um 21:47 schrieb Polecat256@aol.com:

To you ladies and gentlemen of the List.., my greetings and
salutations…

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Stephen (aka: Polecat,
&amp; other aliases).., and I have been hanging out here on the list
for about 4 or 5 months now, just reading and laughing and  crying  with
you as you go through your victories, defeats, and
tragedies.., but never contributing anything to the list.., until  now…

But now.., in the wake of the several deaths that have recently
occurred to members of the list, I am moved to write, and
hopefully, I have something to contribute that may be instrumental  in
the prevention of further deaths…  Hopefully…

By way of introduction, let me state that I have done (almost)
every drug on God’s green Earth in terms of Opium (every opium den  from
Afghanistan to Hong Kong), Heroin (snorting only, no needles)  smoked my
own body weight of Hashish (12 years in the Orient, 1 in  prison) Thai
Sticks  (Buddha Grass) 35 years smoking marijuana..,  LSD (approx. 35-40
trips)mushrooms, amphetamines, cocaine (copious  amounts), etc., and
etc…  And I am a two time veteran of
Ibogaine.., so I come to you with a little knowledge and
experience…  Take from it anything you find useful…

So the question is, why do people die?..  Without a suicide
note, and without evidence of organ failure, etc., why are they
dying?., and is it preventable?…

At the age of 59, I had a triple by-pass…  At the age of 63,
I had my first Ibogaine experience.., and at the age of 65 I had my
second Ibogaine experience…  I am now 67 years old, and looking
forward to my third  Ibogaine experience (If I can find a provider  who
doesn’t want to charge me a small fortune)…   Now obviously,  I am not
a good candidate for another Ibogaine experience, given  the
contra-indications of previous deaths from heart related
problems.., and indeed I was required to have in my possession a
suicide note, just in case I should die from the experience (lest  you
think that the “search for Truth” is just a walk in the
park)…  But my “brush with death” did not come from Ibogaine, but
from mushrooms!..  This experience may give you an insight that may
save your life…  Take heed…

This experience happened to me, and to no one else that had
ingested these mushrooms…   I  was alone at the time… About half
way through this trip, I began to get very sleepy.., extremely
sleepy.., and I was exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by
“yawning”.. these were exaggerated yawns, lasting for as long as 45  to
60 seconds at a time!..  I don’t know what the mechanisms were  that
were involved here, but only that I was very sleepy and
exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by yawning over and over  and
over again, and I knew instinctively, that if I went to
sleep— I would die!..  I was near “peaking”, and there was a
debate that was going on in my mind, as to whether or not I should  lay
down, and die…  And somehow.., it seemed the right thing to  do..,
like if I didn’t do it, maybe I was just a coward, and
perhaps there awaited a bigger reward “on the other side”, but on  the
other hand, maybe it was more courageous to stay alive, and  finish
projects I has started.., but on the other hand, maybe this  was the
bigger challenge, and perhaps a bigger accomplishment..,  just to lay
down and die!…  I went and changed my shirt,
preparing to die, with a clean shirt on, and yawning profusely the
whole time, and the scene was set.., yes, I will lie down here on  the
floor, and they will read the signs, and the obituary will
read: death from overdose due to ingestion of mushrooms…  And  then I
thought about my aged mother, age 87, and she would be very  sad, and it
would probably kill her, and my grandchildren, and they  would be so
sad.., and I  changed my mind…  I decided.., Not to  die!.,  and it
wasn’t easy!!..  I was soooo sleepy.., and I knew,  that if I so much as
sat down to rest, I would fall asleep, and not  wake up…  I walked
outside, and around my house, never
stopping…  If I stopped, I would rest, and if I rested, I would
sleep, and if I slept.., I would die…  So I walked for probably  about
4 hours, until I stopped yawning, until I came down from the  mushrooms,
until I wasn’t sleepy any more.., and I lived!..  But  still, the debate
went on in my mind… was I presented with a
test?., and did I fail it?., or.., did I pass!??..  I looked
Heavenward, and asked the question; did I pass?., or, did I
fail???  And my grandchildren came, and  they were so happy to see  me,
and my mother awoke from her slumber, and she was smiling, and  happy,
and I knew, that it was indeed a test.., and I had passed  it!..  I had
chosen: “Life”.., and I had purpose, and there
accomplishments, and a chance to do “good”, as much good as I can  do,
and every chance I get!..  Thank You, Lord.., Thank You, Thank  You,
Thank You, Thank You…

So.., children of the list, I caution you…  Whether it be
Ibogaine, mushrooms, heroin, or whatever.., you may be confronted  with
this same or a similar scenario, with the choice between life  and
death.., and the choice for death seems (at the time) to be  very
seductive, especially if you have no purpose in life.., but  it  is a
test.., and purpose is all around you.., in the good you can  do for
other people.., and this is the “key” to rising above your  addictions
and your purposelessness (without a purpose, your
addiction is your purpose) (how pathetic).., so forget about your
insignificant “self”, and find yourself in other people, in the  good
that you can do (it’s a Zen thing).., because you get no
feedback from the dead…  It is a very selfish thing to choose to  die,
when there is so much good that you can do, with Life…

To be forewarned is to be fore armed…  Choose Life!

Highest Regards..,   Stephen

Get the NEW version of MSN Messenger with Video Conversation – it’s FREE!

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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I want to…….
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:55:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine-owner@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

change from digest to individual e-mails. I am sorry but I do not remember how to do this. Will you please let me know by dropping me a line at
calliemimosa@aol.com.
Thanks in advance!
Callie

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:50:01 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You are a drug guru.  So what are the answers to your questions?<

LOL! Howard, I really, really like you.
I’ll let you know when and if i pull it off.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Preston,

You are a drug guru.  So what are the answers to your questions?

Howard

In a message dated 9/26/05 11:47:33 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

My question is: How long do people think withdrawals would last if I
just got up tomorrow and didn’t take the MS-Contin, and just stopped taking
it period? It couldn’t possibly be as bad as kicking cold turkey over a gram
a day of good brown London dope, now could it, or walking away with my last
week’s take home bottles of methadone in my fridge for almost three years
and going through the withdrawals, right? All done without ibogaine, right?
The Comment/Other Question: Could taking the ibogaine last time have
made me more reved up, causing me much more sleep problems (I also have a
few Valiums to help me sleep through the worst of it, I hope- although from
past experience they haven’t usually helped much) and caused me more trouble
with “withdrawals” than had I simply not panicked and taken the ibogaine?
Anyway, I plan on rising tomorrow and seeing if I can just fucking kick
this shit. I’m SO TIRED. (Where have we heard this before?) I have enough
drugs (barely) but that’s not the point. I don’t always, and I’m sick and
tired of being sick and tired- and ibogaine hasn’t done me anything else
that any other treatment modality has done for me really, except give me
access to magical realms and cut withdrawals, SOME OF THE TIMES I’ve taken
it.

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:25:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston,

You are a drug guru.  So what are the answers to your questions?

Howard

In a message dated 9/26/05 11:47:33 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

My question is: How long do people think withdrawals would last if I
just got up tomorrow and didn’t take the MS-Contin, and just stopped taking
it period? It couldn’t possibly be as bad as kicking cold turkey over a gram
a day of good brown London dope, now could it, or walking away with my last
week’s take home bottles of methadone in my fridge for almost three years
and going through the withdrawals, right? All done without ibogaine, right?
The Comment/Other Question: Could taking the ibogaine last time have
made me more reved up, causing me much more sleep problems (I also have a
few Valiums to help me sleep through the worst of it, I hope- although from
past experience they haven’t usually helped much) and caused me more trouble
with “withdrawals” than had I simply not panicked and taken the ibogaine?
Anyway, I plan on rising tomorrow and seeing if I can just fucking kick
this shit. I’m SO TIRED. (Where have we heard this before?) I have enough
drugs (barely) but that’s not the point. I don’t always, and I’m sick and
tired of being sick and tired- and ibogaine hasn’t done me anything else
that any other treatment modality has done for me really, except give me
access to magical realms and cut withdrawals, SOME OF THE TIMES I’ve taken
it.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:16:33 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mark,
I haven’t considered typical “conventional detox” becauise I HATE the environment in those places, with a passion, and do not feel they have a single thing to offer me but THEIR version of what THEY think reality should be for EVERYONE and particularly me- or so I’ve ALWAYS found no matter which place I entered and tried out.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Mark Corcoran
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Pretson,
Just out curiousity, why havent you considered checking yourself into a conventional detox?
If you don’t have insurance or medicaid you can always go to Metropolitan (Harlem), Far Rock (St. John’s) or (Intervail) in Bklyn. first thing in the morning.
At least that way you can do in a lot less discomfort, maybe even address the pain issues with someone while your there and get refered to some kind of alternative pain managment clinic.
Just a thought.
Hang in there bro. -M.
Also, you might be able to get your hands on a booster when you get out to take care of any residual withdrawl you might still have.

From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date:  Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:47:08 -0400
>Hi all, I’d appreciate a little feedback this evening if anyone
>cares to give some.
>    Almost or about a month ago exactly, I ate a fairly large amount
>of ibogaine, at least, I’ve been told it was more than Mash gives
>her “normal” patients.
>    I was miserable on 2 60 MS-Contins a day the entire week after
>taking that dose. Now, I’m taking 2 MS-Contin 60s a day because I’ve
>managed to leave myself too little, but I’ve also been taking
>Wellbutron (to help stop smoking, but didn’t take it today, planning
>on not taking it anymore since it does have serious sexual side
>effects and the tv commercials specifically warn against taking it
>with liver problems, which I have) and seem to be doing just fine on
>2 a day.
>    My question is: How long do people think withdrawals would last
>if I just got up tomorrow and didn’t take the MS-Contin, and just
>stopped taking it period? It couldn’t possibly be as bad as kicking
>cold turkey over a gram a day of good brown London dope, now could
>it, or walking away with my last week’s take home bottles of
>methadone in my fridge for almost three years and going through the
>withdrawals, right? All done without ibogaine, right?
>    The Comment/Other Question: Could taking the ibogaine last time
>have made me more reved up, causing me much more sleep problems (I
>also have a few Valiums to help me sleep through the worst of it, I
>hope- although from past experience they haven’t usually helped
>much) and caused me more trouble with “withdrawals” than had I
>simply not panicked and taken the ibogaine?
>    Anyway, I plan on rising tomorrow and seeing if I can just
>fucking kick this shit. I’m SO TIRED. (Where have we heard this
>before?) I have enough drugs (barely) but that’s not the point. I
>don’t always, and I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired- and
>ibogaine hasn’t done me anything else that any other treatment
>modality has done for me really, except give me access to magical
>realms and cut withdrawals, SOME OF THE TIMES I’ve taken it.
>
>
>Peace and love,
>Preston Peet
>
>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
>often mistaken for madness”
>Richard Davenport-Hines
>
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
>Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out
>Sept. 2005)
>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] speaking to NYC libertarian party and more stuff too
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:13:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Best of luck!!
love
matt

 

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:13:14 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I hope i get my package today and the spiriti of eboga will bequath to me her fiery gift~~!!<

Good luck and I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for.

Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Preston bro
when it comes to the wd u know exactly what to expect–u get my drift right…..i mean i remember i posted here once about oxys wd just hoping praying that people would say nah dont worry its not going to be as bad when deep down i knew exactly what it was going to be…..
im sick now and waiting for my order to arrive any day now, quite possibly today so im anxious as hell…..
in the end life is a game thats why so many people are so fuken diveresed cause we all want to experience all kinds of realities in different bodies yet in the end its only up to us to change what we dont like……but yah like thats fuken easy
i hope i get my package today and the spiriti of eboga will bequath to me her fiery gift~~!!
love
matt

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:11:28 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, I have thought of this, but after my last experience with ibogaine, I think I’m not at all interested in trying out ibogaine maintenence, no interest whatsoever. The occasional treatment-sized dose, wether for getting clean or for aligning my spirit, that I can see- but low dose mantainance, nope, no way.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Preston,
have you ever thought about experimenting with daily very low-dose ibogaine self-therapy? it is a big support when stopping/reducing cigarettes and also a mood uplifter. after detox it maybe could help to deal with pain/medication.

best wishes
ekki

Am 27.09.2005 um 05:47 schrieb Preston Peet:

Hi all, I’d appreciate a little feedback this evening if anyone cares to give some.
Almost or about a month ago exactly, I ate a fairly large amount of ibogaine, at least, I’ve been told it was more than Mash gives her “normal” patients.
I was miserable on 2 60 MS-Contins a day the entire week after taking that dose. Now, I’m taking 2 MS-Contin 60s a day because I’ve managed to leave myself too little, but I’ve also been taking Wellbutron (to help stop smoking, but didn’t take it today, planning on not taking it anymore since it does have serious sexual side effects and the tv commercials specifically warn against taking it with liver problems, which I have) and seem to be doing just fine on 2 a day.
My question is: How long do people think withdrawals would last if I just got up tomorrow and didn’t take the MS-Contin, and just stopped taking it period? It couldn’t possibly be as bad as kicking cold turkey over a gram a day of good brown London dope, now could it, or walking away with my last week’s take home bottles of methadone in my fridge for almost three years and going through the withdrawals, right? All done without ibogaine, right?
The Comment/Other Question: Could taking the ibogaine last time have made me more reved up, causing me much more sleep problems (I also have a few Valiums to help me sleep through the worst of it, I hope- although from past experience they haven’t usually helped much) and caused me more trouble with “withdrawals” than had I simply not panicked and taken the ibogaine?
Anyway, I plan on rising tomorrow and seeing if I can just fucking kick this shit. I’m SO TIRED. (Where have we heard this before?) I have enough drugs (barely) but that’s not the point. I don’t always, and I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired- and ibogaine hasn’t done me anything else that any other treatment modality has done for me really, except give me access to magical realms and cut withdrawals, SOME OF THE TIMES I’ve taken it.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] speaking to NYC libertarian party and more stuff too
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:09:46 PM EDT
To: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,

Jim Lesczynski, Chair of the Manhattan Libertarian Party wrote me to say:

“Thanks very much for agreeing to speak to the Manhattan Libertarian Party.
We’re looking forward to it. See you on the 10th (of October).

As our DrugWar.com list subscriber Bob Armstrong noted:

The meetings are conveniently at the , Ukrainian East Village
Restaurant , 140 Second Avenue . The date is Monday Oct 10 .
The speaker’s start around 7:30 . ( See http://manhattanlp.org/ )

I first suggested speaking about the effects of prohibition upon US young, then decided that perhaps it might be better to simply tell my own story, to which Bob replied that perhaps a mixture of both would be good.
Here’s the (shameless slef-promotion here, so ‘scuse…oh, what am I saying, this is “shameless” self promotion, so forget the apology) bio/blurb I sent them:

Blurb:
Preston Peet is a New York City-based writer, editor, musician, actor, and
DJ. Editor of “Under the Influence-the Disinformation Guide to Drugs,” and
the upcoming “Underground- the Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations, Astonishing Archaeology, and Hidden History” (due out in
October, 2005), Preston is a regular contributor to High Times magazine and
website, the editor of the controversial website DrugWar.com and moderator
of the DrugWar.com email list, a columnist for New York City’s premier punk
rock newspaper, The New York Waste, and has published in a variety of
publications both in print and on-line, including “Media Bypass”; “Criminal
Justice 03/04”; “09/11 8:48AM-Documenting America’s Greatest Disaster”; and
“Alternet.” Besides publishing over 60 articles at the popular
Disinformation website, most on some aspect of the War on Some Drugs and
Users (www.disinfo.com), he has articles in The Disinformation Company’s
anthologies, “You Are Being Lied To,” “Everything You Know Is Wrong,” and
the upcoming “Everything You Know About Sex is Wrong.” He lives in Manhattan
with Vanessa (his other half) and nine rescued cats, and has been known to
smoke the occasional joint or three. “It’s time to end the War on Some Drugs
and Users.”

I hope some of you can make it to the presentation.

Also, the date is lonot yet set but it will happen- there will be a reading event at the NY Sex Museum here in Manhattan, a book release party for Russ Kick’s new book Everything You Know About Sex is Wrong, in which I have two articles, one called “Sex…and Drugs,” a drier m more a journalik-stu[e sptulwjop te p and the other is called “Close Contact,” a first person story about what some people do to earn the bread they need to get straight when strung out and living on the streets of this or that big city (in this case, Manhattan, 1994). I’ll be reading, and I have no idea at this time what other contributors will be there to take part in the celebration, but I’m sure a good time will be had by all.

Also, I’m planning my own shindig/reading event sometime between November 20 and November 23, as those are the dates when Graham Hancock will be in town. He is planning on giving a 5 to 10 minutes slide presentation and discussion about his two contributions to “Underground- the Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archaeology and Hidden History,” due for rlease in late October 2005. I am unsure which other contributors may attend and take part, but the fact that I may very well be doing a presentation with Graham Hancock makes me more thrilled than I can aptly describe to you all here on these lists. Still, I can try- Hancock, to me, rocks, and I have found much inspiration and such in reading his works, and by carrrying on email correspondendes between us (He really liked UTI, and funny enough, my favorite writer on the topic of lost civilizations, Hancock, when I first contacted him, told me that he may have to turn in his contributions a little later than the date I was seeking, due to his currently working on his newest project- Supernatural- and it’s about drugs and the origins of religion. Oddly enough, my first book published was about drugs, and my second project was, and has been, about lost civilizations. My favorite write about lost civilizations is or was rather, writing a book about drugs and religion. Semed somehow like synchronicity or something. Anyway, that’s something else I’ll keep you all updated on.
Have a great evening, and I hope to see at least some of you at the High Times Stony Awards tomorrow night, at club Life, right downstairs from Alex Gray’s Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. How cool is that? LOL!
Anyway, have a gerat night all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:06:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I want to add a brief comment here
I belive everybody has some kind of represed thoughts/feelings
since we have millions of lives to live and are striving towards nirvana–not the budhist stagnant nirvana- because there wouldnt be anything more depreseing than that—but nirvana in the sense of sheding this body forever –then -from every life we lead we have to have memeries/feelings/emotions that have not been put to action because of fear or guilt or wheatever…….therefore with each new  life –we bring more represeion– even though every time we start a new life and we start all over— our whole entity still is the master and we then become our own puppets playing our own game which we dont relize we playing……oh this is crazy……im too sick…
ahh tomorow my package shall arive and bestow to me the gift of “seeing” once again
peace and love brothers and sisters
matt
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From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 27, 2005 at 6:47:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Shoot out at the old carral .

From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean
Date: September 27, 2005 at 6:00:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sean was a friend of mine. He passed away seeming after drinking a bottle of methadone and accidently overdosing which he had done several times before. Sean had no intention of checking out when or where he did. I don’t believe this was a matter of the subconcious either. He died because he stopped breathing after drinking too much methadone. A tradgic mistake that could have happened to any one of us when we are in the midst of active addiction. He was planning on doing another treatment the week after his untimely death. I don’t believe Sean wanted to die on any level  but he was unfortuatly living a life that wasn’t condusive to longevity.
Anyone who knew Sean was lucky to have known him. I wish we had have had more time with him. He was one of the sweetest guys I’ve ever met. May he rest in peace.
Welcome to the list Stephen. -M.

From:  ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean (Chapter one)…
Date:  Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:39:11 +0200
>hi Stephen
>i take the freedom to welcome you to the list! Hello!
>i like what you write.
>
>best regards
>ekki
>
>Am 27.09.2005 um 21:47 schrieb Polecat256@aol.com:
>
>>
>>To you ladies and gentlemen of the List.., my greetings and
>>salutations…
>>
>>    Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Stephen (aka: Polecat,
>>& other aliases).., and I have been hanging out here on the list
>>for about 4 or 5 months now, just reading and laughing and crying
>>with you as you go through your victories, defeats, and
>>tragedies.., but never contributing anything to the list.., until
>>now…
>>
>>    But now.., in the wake of the several deaths that have recently
>>occurred to members of the list, I am moved to write, and
>>hopefully, I have something to contribute that may be instrumental
>>in the prevention of further deaths…  Hopefully…
>>
>>    By way of introduction, let me state that I have done (almost)
>>every drug on God’s green Earth in terms of Opium (every opium den
>>from Afghanistan to Hong Kong), Heroin (snorting only, no needles)
>>smoked my own body weight of Hashish (12 years in the Orient, 1 in
>>prison) Thai Sticks (Buddha Grass) 35 years smoking marijuana..,
>>LSD (approx. 35-40 trips)mushrooms, amphetamines, cocaine (copious
>>amounts), etc., and etc…  And I am a two time veteran of
>>Ibogaine.., so I come to you with a little knowledge and
>>experience…  Take from it anything you find useful…
>>
>>    So the question is, why do people die?..  Without a suicide
>>note, and without evidence of organ failure, etc., why are they
>>dying?., and is it preventable?…
>>
>>    At the age of 59, I had a triple by-pass…  At the age of 63,
>>I had my first Ibogaine experience.., and at the age of 65 I had my
>>second Ibogaine experience…  I am now 67 years old, and looking
>>forward to my third Ibogaine experience (If I can find a provider
>>who doesn’t want to charge me a small fortune)…   Now obviously,
>>I am not a good candidate for another Ibogaine experience, given
>>the contra-indications of previous deaths from heart related
>>problems.., and indeed I was required to have in my possession a
>>suicide note, just in case I should die from the experience (lest
>>you think that the “search for Truth” is just a walk in the
>>park)…  But my “brush with death” did not come from Ibogaine, but
>>from mushrooms!..  This experience may give you an insight that may
>>save your life…  Take heed…
>>
>>    This experience happened to me, and to no one else that had
>>ingested these mushrooms…   I was alone at the time… About half
>>way through this trip, I began to get very sleepy.., extremely
>>sleepy.., and I was exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by
>>”yawning”.. these were exaggerated yawns, lasting for as long as 45
>>to 60 seconds at a time!..  I don’t know what the mechanisms were
>>that were involved here, but only that I was very sleepy and
>>exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by yawning over and over
>>and over again, and I knew instinctively, that if I went to
>>sleep— I would die!..  I was near “peaking”, and there was a
>>debate that was going on in my mind, as to whether or not I should
>>lay down, and die…  And somehow.., it seemed the right thing to
>>do.., like if I didn’t do it, maybe I was just a coward, and
>>perhaps there awaited a bigger reward “on the other side”, but on
>>the other hand, maybe it was more courageous to stay alive, and
>>finish projects I has started.., but on the other hand, maybe this
>>was the bigger challenge, and perhaps a bigger accomplishment..,
>>just to lay down and die!…  I went and changed my shirt,
>>preparing to die, with a clean shirt on, and yawning profusely the
>>whole time, and the scene was set.., yes, I will lie down here on
>>the floor, and they will read the signs, and the obituary will
>>read: death from overdose due to ingestion of mushrooms…  And
>>then I thought about my aged mother, age 87, and she would be very
>>sad, and it would probably kill her, and my grandchildren, and they
>>would be so sad.., and I changed my mind…  I decided.., Not to
>>die!.,  and it wasn’t easy!!..  I was soooo sleepy.., and I knew,
>>that if I so much as sat down to rest, I would fall asleep, and not
>>wake up…  I walked outside, and around my house, never
>>stopping…  If I stopped, I would rest, and if I rested, I would
>>sleep, and if I slept.., I would die…  So I walked for probably
>>about 4 hours, until I stopped yawning, until I came down from the
>>mushrooms, until I wasn’t sleepy any more.., and I lived!..  But
>>still, the debate went on in my mind… was I presented with a
>>test?., and did I fail it?., or.., did I pass!??..  I looked
>>Heavenward, and asked the question; did I pass?., or, did I
>>fail???  And my grandchildren came, and they were so happy to see
>>me, and my mother awoke from her slumber, and she was smiling, and
>>happy, and I knew, that it was indeed a test.., and I had passed
>>it!..  I had chosen: “Life”.., and I had purpose, and there
>>accomplishments, and a chance to do “good”, as much good as I can
>>do, and every chance I get!..  Thank You, Lord.., Thank You, Thank
>>You, Thank You, Thank You…
>>
>>    So.., children of the list, I caution you…  Whether it be
>>Ibogaine, mushrooms, heroin, or whatever.., you may be confronted
>>with this same or a similar scenario, with the choice between life
>>and death.., and the choice for death seems (at the time) to be
>>very seductive, especially if you have no purpose in life.., but it
>>is a test.., and purpose is all around you.., in the good you can
>>do for other people.., and this is the “key” to rising above your
>>addictions and your purposelessness (without a purpose, your
>>addiction is your purpose) (how pathetic).., so forget about your
>>insignificant “self”, and find yourself in other people, in the
>>good that you can do (it’s a Zen thing).., because you get no
>>feedback from the dead…  It is a very selfish thing to choose to
>>die, when there is so much good that you can do, with Life…
>>
>>    To be forewarned is to be fore armed…  Choose Life!
>>
>>    Highest Regards..,  Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean (Chapter one)…
Date: September 27, 2005 at 5:39:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi Stephen
i take the freedom to welcome you to the list! Hello!
i like what you write.

best regards
ekki

Am 27.09.2005 um 21:47 schrieb Polecat256@aol.com:

To you ladies and gentlemen of the List.., my greetings and salutations…

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Stephen (aka: Polecat, & other aliases).., and I have been hanging out here on the list for about 4 or 5 months now, just reading and laughing and crying with you as you go through your victories, defeats, and tragedies.., but never contributing anything to the list.., until now…

But now.., in the wake of the several deaths that have recently occurred to members of the list, I am moved to write, and hopefully, I have something to contribute that may be instrumental in the prevention of further deaths…  Hopefully…

By way of introduction, let me state that I have done (almost) every drug on God’s green Earth in terms of Opium (every opium den from Afghanistan to Hong Kong), Heroin (snorting only, no needles) smoked my own body weight of Hashish (12 years in the Orient, 1 in prison) Thai Sticks (Buddha Grass) 35 years smoking marijuana.., LSD (approx. 35-40 trips)mushrooms, amphetamines, cocaine (copious amounts), etc., and etc…  And I am a two time veteran of Ibogaine.., so I come to you with a little knowledge and experience…  Take from it anything you find useful…

So the question is, why do people die?..  Without a suicide note, and without evidence of organ failure, etc., why are they dying?., and is it preventable?…

At the age of 59, I had a triple by-pass…  At the age of 63, I had my first Ibogaine experience.., and at the age of 65 I had my second Ibogaine experience…  I am now 67 years old, and looking forward to my third Ibogaine experience (If I can find a provider who doesn’t want to charge me a small fortune)…   Now obviously, I am not a good candidate for another Ibogaine experience, given the contra-indications of previous deaths from heart related problems.., and indeed I was required to have in my possession a suicide note, just in case I should die from the experience (lest you think that the “search for Truth” is just a walk in the park)…  But my “brush with death” did not come from Ibogaine, but from mushrooms!..  This experience may give you an insight that may save your life…  Take heed…

This experience happened to me, and to no one else that had ingested these mushrooms…   I was alone at the time… About half way through this trip, I began to get very sleepy.., extremely sleepy.., and I was exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by “yawning”.. these were exaggerated yawns, lasting for as long as 45 to 60 seconds at a time!..  I don’t know what the mechanisms were that were involved here, but only that I was very sleepy and exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by yawning over and over and over again, and I knew instinctively, that if I went to sleep— I would die!..  I was near “peaking”, and there was a debate that was going on in my mind, as to whether or not I should lay down, and die…  And somehow.., it seemed the right thing to do.., like if I didn’t do it, maybe I was just a coward, and perhaps there awaited a bigger reward “on the other side”, but on the other hand, maybe it was more courageous to stay alive, and finish projects I has started.., but on the other hand, maybe this was the bigger challenge, and perhaps a bigger accomplishment.., just to lay down and die!…  I went and changed my shirt, preparing to die, with a clean shirt on, and yawning profusely the whole time, and the scene was set.., yes, I will lie down here on the floor, and they will read the signs, and the obituary will read: death from overdose due to ingestion of mushrooms…  And then I thought about my aged mother, age 87, and she would be very sad, and it would probably kill her, and my grandchildren, and they would be so sad.., and I changed my mind…  I decided.., Not to die!.,  and it wasn’t easy!!..  I was soooo sleepy.., and I knew, that if I so much as sat down to rest, I would fall asleep, and not wake up…  I walked outside, and around my house, never stopping…  If I stopped, I would rest, and if I rested, I would sleep, and if I slept.., I would die…  So I walked for probably about 4 hours, until I stopped yawning, until I came down from the mushrooms, until I wasn’t sleepy any more.., and I lived!..  But still, the debate went on in my mind… was I presented with a test?., and did I fail it?., or.., did I pass!??..  I looked Heavenward, and asked the question; did I pass?., or, did I fail???  And my grandchildren came, and they were so happy to see me, and my mother awoke from her slumber, and she was smiling, and happy, and I knew, that it was indeed a test.., and I had passed it!..  I had chosen: “Life”.., and I had purpose, and there accomplishments, and a chance to do “good”, as much good as I can do, and every chance I get!..  Thank You, Lord.., Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, Thank You…

So.., children of the list, I caution you…  Whether it be Ibogaine, mushrooms, heroin, or whatever.., you may be confronted with this same or a similar scenario, with the choice between life and death.., and the choice for death seems (at the time) to be very seductive, especially if you have no purpose in life.., but it is a test.., and purpose is all around you.., in the good you can do for other people.., and this is the “key” to rising above your addictions and your purposelessness (without a purpose, your addiction is your purpose) (how pathetic).., so forget about your insignificant “self”, and find yourself in other people, in the good that you can do (it’s a Zen thing).., because you get no feedback from the dead…  It is a very selfish thing to choose to die, when there is so much good that you can do, with Life…

To be forewarned is to be fore armed…  Choose Life!

Highest Regards..,  Stephen

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 27, 2005 at 5:25:43 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 27.09.2005 um 18:56 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Ekki,

It’s just that I’ve met so many people from a Buddhist background who just
can’t feel. They are so lost it’s almost beyond belief. And they have no
awareness of it. The therapist training I did was with Humaniversity in
Holland. It’s body-based and highly social – bioenergetics, encounter,
emotional release, sexuality, lots of group experience, very little talking,
even less analysing. I did a lot of marathon groups, groups where you go
night after night awake with a lot of emotional release and bioenergetics.
With this you can really see yourself and see others, because all the
bullshit of the mind is swept away and all the pain, fear, and love laid
bare. This process I basically trust because, like I say, it lets you really
see yourself and others.

You say you just want someone to fix a problem, and not become aware
yourself of what is going on. You can’t ever get that in therapy because,
ultimately nothing ever really changes. The issues, the reactivity of the
mind, never changes. You can scream and shout, you can talk about yourself
from now until the end of time and nothing will actually change. It is
merely that you become aware of the mind’s reactions and the stimuli behind
them. Then you have a choice where previously, in a situation, you would
just react choicelessly. Awareness rises through repeatedly experiencing
yourself in scary situations.

Now with the Buddhist approach, or other meditative approaches, there is
this whole belief that you can just sit and watch and your consciousness
will deepen and deepen until there is just pure silence. Well, it’s a nice
idea. But, I have seen countless Buddhists in therapy groups and these guys
are locked up tight. They are totally trapped in the mind. Underneath are
layers and layers of fear that all their meditative practices have simply
hammered down on to the point where they can barely feel anymore. They’re
sweet guys but they’re so disconnected from their bodies.

If you want to bring Osho in, he was a big Buddha fan (at some point before
he died I seem to recall he claimed the Buddha kept trying to incarnate into
his body but he found him too much a drag!), but he said there’s no way for
Westerners to practice meditation without emotional release. It’s pure
fantasy to try. This is why he brought so many active and social meditations
to the West, to allow the blocks to move and bring people to a place where
the mind would become more silent naturally. Everything I’ve personally seen
confirms his approach to be cool.

I don’t know you or your Zen master. But someone who says they’ve got no
repression, has used heroin, and says they only have nice experiences on
ibogaine, man, to a therapist that is one collosal red light going off.

Nick

Dear Nick
i also find the Osho-approach cool. i met a number of nice former sanyasins at zen groups. one woman, a cheerful american lesbian, had been active full-time in poona and oregon for years before she became the abbot of a zen school in berlin where i used to practice.

you are right some buddhists are locked up tight and can´t feel but i also met totally different characters there.

about the whole thing with body, encounter, sexuality, emotional release etc. it is nice if you can do that in a therapist setting but you also can have that in another surrounding. that is basically what youth/underground cultures are about. a lot of people live that stuff intensly in their teens and early twens. somehow you never stop to struggle with those things in life, don´t you?

do you seriously think all those non-repression-centered forms of therapy like behavioural, systemic, paradox interventions, gestalt etc. etc. do not work? practice proves they work very well.

where you did get the idea that buddhism is about letting your conscious deepen until there is pure silence? it´s news to me. anyway i don´t care about buddhism, i am not a buddhist. i only like to practice zen. the formal part is sitting, bowing, chanting, koan.

the whole repression thing is a certain system (originally invented by freud) to look at things. you can believe in it and work with it but to label everyone “repressed & needs therapy” is not good for you. narrows your perspective.

i wrote a number of times here that i saw very dark landscapes on ibogaine and that the first 3 major trips were not easy fun all the time. Nick, didn´t you have marvelous experiences and a really good time on ibogaine, too? it´s really way beyond good and bad isn´t it? anyway i am not the only one here who likes it.

about heroin it was a dream from my early teens come true. i felt i needed to do that and it was cool. especially the withdrawals were quite an experience. i discovered new dimensions of suffering. and then the desperation and self-doubt when you cannot stop even if you badly want to. wow!  luckily there was a happy end with ibogaine.
i feel for everyone who goes through withdrawals and i also have deep respect for everyone who stays clean after being hooked for a few years. burroughs called the junky experience “the secret school”.

but anyway i wouldn´t do something so self-centered any more.

thank you for the discussion so far.

yours
ekki

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From: “Weppler, Robert [VC]” <Robert.Weppler@vch.ca>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: September 27, 2005 at 4:38:19 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I saw this film Rite of Passage in Belfast March 05 at the international harm reduction conference. I thought that for what it was it made for a great introduction for novices just what Ibogaine and its possible applications are.
Robert

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 5:29 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING
AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

Messageone of the oldest scams I’ve ever come across online- the very first
week I was online. This IS a scam, please believe me.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Faye, Shawn
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: luke.christofersen@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 6:45 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA
TODAY SHOW …

scam snipped for lack of wanting to pass on the form letter yet again….

**************************************************************

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From: Polecat256@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean (Chapter one)…
Date: September 27, 2005 at 3:47:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Polecat256@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To you ladies and gentlemen of the List.., my greetings and salutations…

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Stephen (aka: Polecat, & other aliases).., and I have been hanging out here on the list for about 4 or 5 months now, just reading and laughing and crying with you as you go through your victories, defeats, and tragedies.., but never contributing anything to the list.., until now…

But now.., in the wake of the several deaths that have recently occurred to members of the list, I am moved to write, and hopefully, I have something to contribute that may be instrumental in the prevention of further deaths…  Hopefully…

By way of introduction, let me state that I have done (almost) every drug on God’s green Earth in terms of Opium (every opium den from Afghanistan to Hong Kong), Heroin (snorting only, no needles) smoked my own body weight of Hashish (12 years in the Orient, 1 in prison) Thai Sticks (Buddha Grass) 35 years smoking marijuana.., LSD (approx. 35-40 trips)mushrooms, amphetamines, cocaine (copious amounts), etc., and etc…  And I am a two time veteran of Ibogaine.., so I come to you with a little knowledge and experience…  Take from it anything you find useful…

So the question is, why do people die?..  Without a suicide note, and without evidence of organ failure, etc., why are they dying?., and is it preventable?…

At the age of 59, I had a triple by-pass…  At the age of 63, I had my first Ibogaine experience.., and at the age of 65 I had my second Ibogaine experience…  I am now 67 years old, and looking forward to my third Ibogaine experience (If I can find a provider who doesn’t want to charge me a small fortune)…   Now obviously, I am not a good candidate for another Ibogaine experience, given the contra-indications of previous deaths from heart related problems.., and indeed I was required to have in my possession a suicide note, just in case I should die from the experience (lest you think that the “search for Truth” is just a walk in the park)…  But my “brush with death” did not come from Ibogaine, but from mushrooms!..  This experience may give you an insight that may save your life…  Take heed…

This experience happened to me, and to no one else that had ingested these mushrooms…   I was alone at the time… About half way through this trip, I began to get very sleepy.., extremely sleepy.., and I was exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by “yawning”.. these were exaggerated yawns, lasting for as long as 45 to 60 seconds at a time!..  I don’t know what the mechanisms were that were involved here, but only that I was very sleepy and exhaling huge amounts of carbon dioxide by yawning over and over and over again, and I knew instinctively, that if I went to sleep— I would die!..  I was near “peaking”, and there was a debate that was going on in my mind, as to whether or not I should lay down, and die…  And somehow.., it seemed the right thing to do.., like if I didn’t do it, maybe I was just a coward, and perhaps there awaited a bigger reward “on the other side”, but on the other hand, maybe it was more courageous to stay alive, and finish projects I has started.., but on the other hand, maybe this was the bigger challenge, and perhaps a bigger accomplishment.., just to lay down and die!…  I went and changed my shirt, preparing to die, with a clean shirt on, and yawning profusely the whole time, and the scene was set.., yes, I will lie down here on the floor, and they will read the signs, and the obituary will read: death from overdose due to ingestion of mushrooms…  And then I thought about my aged mother, age 87, and she would be very sad, and it would probably kill her, and my grandchildren, and they would be so sad.., and I changed my mind…  I decided.., Not to die!.,  and it wasn’t easy!!..  I was soooo sleepy.., and I knew, that if I so much as sat down to rest, I would fall asleep, and not wake up…  I walked outside, and around my house, never stopping…  If I stopped, I would rest, and if I rested, I would sleep, and if I slept.., I would die…  So I walked for probably about 4 hours, until I stopped yawning, until I came down from the mushrooms, until I wasn’t sleepy any more.., and I lived!..  But still, the debate went on in my mind… was I presented with a test?., and did I fail it?., or.., did I pass!??..  I looked Heavenward, and asked the question; did I pass?., or, did I fail???  And my grandchildren came, and they were so happy to see me, and my mother awoke from her slumber, and she was smiling, and happy, and I knew, that it was indeed a test.., and I had passed it!..  I had chosen: “Life”.., and I had purpose, and there accomplishments, and a chance to do “good”, as much good as I can do, and every chance I get!..  Thank You, Lord.., Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, Thank You…

So.., children of the list, I caution you…  Whether it be Ibogaine, mushrooms, heroin, or whatever.., you may be confronted with this same or a similar scenario, with the choice between life and death.., and the choice for death seems (at the time) to be very seductive, especially if you have no purpose in life.., but it is a test.., and purpose is all around you.., in the good you can do for other people.., and this is the “key” to rising above your addictions and your purposelessness (without a purpose, your addiction is your purpose) (how pathetic).., so forget about your insignificant “self”, and find yourself in other people, in the good that you can do (it’s a Zen thing).., because you get no feedback from the dead…  It is a very selfish thing to choose to die, when there is so much good that you can do, with Life…

To be forewarned is to be fore armed…  Choose Life!

Highest Regards..,  Stephen

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void – ibogaine & false memory
Date: September 27, 2005 at 1:30:32 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee,

In case it’s of use, I seem to recall that the whole thing with “false memory syndrome” arose in the wake of a famous psychological paper published maybe 20 years ago which claimed that, if I’m recalling right, around one third of American women had been sexually abused as kids. The paper was circulated a lot, in the media, and of course provoked major outcry and chaos with stacks of people claiming to recall abuse. Out of this emerged “false memory syndrome,” seemingly as a kind of reaction.

This is just as I recall and may be lacking here and there. I agree with what you say below that if you’ve sufficiently resolved the issue then who cares whether the “memory” is true or not. You don’t care, basically.

Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 27 September 2005 13:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void – ibogaine & false memory

Hi,

If one unravels oneself to the point where there is no pain, no anger and also forgiveness for those who you understand as having being the perpetrators of whatever occured to you, then what difference does the science of your memories make? You aint gonna use them to trash anyone unless you are into the whole litigation thing which is quite possibly not the basis for healing …..

To get caught up in the need to prove ones memories or justify them, is for me a somewhat foreign and pointless exercise. The effort should go into the healing where the real truth lies. To do otherwise is to play the role of a victim or risk becoming confused and deluded. True knowing and accepting is part of the healing. Later comes forgiveness on some level.

If the recall involves someone in your life that you can confront without fear, one will soon know if there is any truth by the way in which matters evolve with that person … If you have doubts about your memories then you have not yet uncovered what has happened to you and you need to go back and do some more work on yourself.

Regarding Ibogaine & Memories of abuse:

I think the question is academic when it comes to ibogaine. In these matters what is uncovered in my experience resolves itself out of the symbolic into the actual – the symbolic being the opening scene in the unfolding of an issue which may take years to properly heal but takes much less time to know. Otherwise you have not yet uncovered the event. With this uncovering comes a lot of dark emotional energy and a knowing that has always been there but you have looked away from. (This I suppose is where the false memory theorists would say that this knowing is some self constructed fantasy to explain a set of unresolved early childhood emotions. Frankly I doubt that one would construct a fantasy on ibogaine which occurs at the age of 9 about being buggered complete with appropriate memories (before, after, during, trauma, complexes and changes in character, lifestyle etc post age 9). I think that “false memories” can only be supported by knowingly self-deluding oneself on some level and this is hardly a characteristic of ibogaine.

If this is not good enough as proof of what has happened for the outside observer (if one can be bothered to try and prove such things to help others who (some but not all) imo are struggling with their own repression and project onto you their own inner struggles) then the question perhaps should be:

Does the level of truth ibogaine exposes allow you to look at such false memories without realising that they don’t quite add up or are not true, i.e., does it support delf-delusion?

I am sure there are cases of false memory but my points are made in relation to ibogaine and not in relation to conventional therapy.

Regarding attributing other emotions to a particular abuse sceanario, with continued ibogaine/eboga treatment, all emotional baggage finds its rightful home.

Blaming others for pain instead of facing its true source is not kosha in ibogaine terms and imo is symptomatic of an unforgiving and unhealed state.

Regarding the symbolism of ibogaine. Yes, it does start out with a lot of symbolism but in the final stages of healing its clear up front reality you are watching. Yet, the supposed symbolism of the planet dying etc as somehow being a mirror of oneself I am not sure I buy into. The planet is dying and eboga in my experience cares a lot about these things.

Lee

slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something rather
than nothing.

Another thought: it is good to have a sense of healing as ongoing
work, be it 5 minutes of meditation a day, therapy, or whatever.
It’s like putting a little money in a savings account on a regular
basis – one gets used to it, and eventually there is something
substantial.

On the subject of false memory, there is certainly both true and
false memory. It may not always be possible to determine what
actually happened, but in any case there is always meaning to
painful memories. With all respect to people with true memories,
here are some thoughts on how false memories might arise:

Although true memory is only supposed to start around age 2 as I
understand it, I believe that some kind of memory extends previous
to that age, including the trauma of birth, diapering and the
reactions of the parents, and parental sex (maybe before birth as
well as after). As utterly dependant creatures, babies can be
completely caught up in parental feelings, and devastated by the
lack thereof. These experiences may have the same impact as overt
abuse at a later age. When one recovers some awareness of them, it
is from the perspective of a formed consciousness, thus it is
easier to translate them to overt abuse occurring after
consciousness was formed because this is more understandable than
the emotional interpenetration of the baby/parent state.

Also if one has concrete memories of abuse, it can be easier to
attribute less understood types of suffering such as emotional
neglect to these memories than to wade into a nightmare without the
guideposts of a detailed scene or story.

Another possible source of false memory is that it might be easier
to blame others for pain in the same way that some primitive
societies attribute disease to witchcraft. This can be a way of
psychically shifting suffering to something that can be understood
in simple terms.

Adding ibogaine to these dynamics, it is commonly understood that
much of what it shows us is translated to symbolic terms in order
to achieve some degree of palatability, that many take literally at
first and eventually come to different interpretations of. Nick
gives an excellent description of this phenomenom here:

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg

I have spent a lot of time with people who have all sorts of abuse
experience. These musings are not intended to cast doubt on
anyone’s memories. Rather I want to point out that in working with
this kind of material it can be useful to keep many possibilities
in mind and not settle on one thing. If you have specific memories,
look beyond them as well to see what is in the shadows. And don’t
try too hard to know everything at once.

Here’s a support group for adult survivors of child abuse that has
some further discussion of memory and general support information:

http://www.ascasupport.org/

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

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http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 27, 2005 at 12:56:08 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 27 September 2005 14:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void

Dear Nick

Am 27.09.2005 um 13:13 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
However, what you wrote was that you didn’t use heroin for repression
and
that you used it because you thought it was cool. I said this sounds
like
repression to me, and nothing you’ve put down here seems to change
that.
ok, then this sounds like repression to you.

if it is repression on the other hand it is by definition
something you do not know. some therapists like to trap their patients
in a classic catch-22: either you confirm you have repressed material
or you deny and that is even more the prove for repression =)

Well, yes, it’s their job to try and get you to look at yourself.
no. it´s their job to help you. there is a big difference. it is well
known that some systemic/behavioural approaches where you don´t look
“inside” oftentimes lead to better and faster results than the recovery
of repressed material and endless self-reflection which oftentimes
makes things even worse (then the therapist will say that more pain is
a sign of healing).

However,
therapy isn’t mandatory in society.
unfortunately some drug users and other misfits are pushed into therapy
although they don´want to. the whole psychatric system is problematic.
If you feel totally happy in life then I
doubt you’d go see a therapist. If you call in a plumber, it because
you
want to know what’s going on with your pipes. If you call in a
therapist,
it’s because you want to know what’s going on in your unconscious.
no. i think a therapist is most often called by people who want to get
rid of certain problems. when i call a plumber i want to have my pipes
functioning again but i don´t care about the shit in the pipes or where
it is stuck.

there are also people with a more intellectual and theoretical
interest, like artists. they use therapy like analysis to get more
motivation and ideas for their work and that is fine.

My experience is that everyone has repressed material.
if you search for it you will find it. personally i think it is a
special way to look at things, one way out of many.

do you think repression is a problem?

It’s in the nature of
being human. I never met anyone who I thought didn’t.
how about your guru, baghwan/osho?

Mostly I think it’s
quite exciting to find out what’s going on inside really.
exactly. it´s better to find out what´s really going on than to do
therapy. to look beyond all those games.
Why not surrender
to the therapists and see what happens?
why not surrender to a bunch of idiots and see what happens?

a zen master i practice with since 10 yrs is also a psychologist who
works as a therapist since 30 years. he never recommended me to do
therapy, even when i was on H, but encouraged me to practice more zen.
and i doubt he does the kind of therapy you have in mind, where people
have to surrender. Nick, do you work as a therapist? what methods do
you use?

Just for the experience.
i once did some psychoanalysis for a few weeks. was fun but i already
have friends to chat with and they don´t charge money.
After all,
if you have no repressed material, what is there to fear?
there is nothing to fear.

ekki

Ekki,

It’s just that I’ve met so many people from a Buddhist background who just
can’t feel. They are so lost it’s almost beyond belief. And they have no
awareness of it. The therapist training I did was with Humaniversity in
Holland. It’s body-based and highly social – bioenergetics, encounter,
emotional release, sexuality, lots of group experience, very little talking,
even less analysing. I did a lot of marathon groups, groups where you go
night after night awake with a lot of emotional release and bioenergetics.
With this you can really see yourself and see others, because all the
bullshit of the mind is swept away and all the pain, fear, and love laid
bare. This process I basically trust because, like I say, it lets you really
see yourself and others.

You say you just want someone to fix a problem, and not become aware
yourself of what is going on. You can’t ever get that in therapy because,
ultimately nothing ever really changes. The issues, the reactivity of the
mind, never changes. You can scream and shout, you can talk about yourself
from now until the end of time and nothing will actually change. It is
merely that you become aware of the mind’s reactions and the stimuli behind
them. Then you have a choice where previously, in a situation, you would
just react choicelessly. Awareness rises through repeatedly experiencing
yourself in scary situations.

Now with the Buddhist approach, or other meditative approaches, there is
this whole belief that you can just sit and watch and your consciousness
will deepen and deepen until there is just pure silence. Well, it’s a nice
idea. But, I have seen countless Buddhists in therapy groups and these guys
are locked up tight. They are totally trapped in the mind. Underneath are
layers and layers of fear that all their meditative practices have simply
hammered down on to the point where they can barely feel anymore. They’re
sweet guys but they’re so disconnected from their bodies.

If you want to bring Osho in, he was a big Buddha fan (at some point before
he died I seem to recall he claimed the Buddha kept trying to incarnate into
his body but he found him too much a drag!), but he said there’s no way for
Westerners to practice meditation without emotional release. It’s pure
fantasy to try. This is why he brought so many active and social meditations
to the West, to allow the blocks to move and bring people to a place where
the mind would become more silent naturally. Everything I’ve personally seen
confirms his approach to be cool.

I don’t know you or your Zen master. But someone who says they’ve got no
repression, has used heroin, and says they only have nice experiences on
ibogaine, man, to a therapist that is one collosal red light going off.

Nick

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From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean
Date: September 27, 2005 at 12:48:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i did not know this..

UUSEAN?

is this who we are talking about?

wtf

I was online this morning and a friend of Seans IMed me and informed me
that
Sean passed away Labor Day weekend of an overdose!
So very sad.
Just wanted to let you all know. You probably do already. I am subscribed
to
Digest so I get behind on news. In fact, I am going to change that right
now!
Hope you all are doing well. I am fine.
Will write more later!
Callie

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From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 10:31:30 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pretson,
Just out curiousity, why havent you considered checking yourself into a conventional detox?
If you don’t have insurance or medicaid you can always go to Metropolitan (Harlem), Far Rock (St. John’s) or (Intervail) in Bklyn. first thing in the morning.
At least that way you can do in a lot less discomfort, maybe even address the pain issues with someone while your there and get refered to some kind of alternative pain managment clinic.
Just a thought.
Hang in there bro. -M.
Also, you might be able to get your hands on a booster when you get out to take care of any residual withdrawl you might still have.

From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date:  Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:47:08 -0400
>Hi all, I’d appreciate a little feedback this evening if anyone
>cares to give some.
>    Almost or about a month ago exactly, I ate a fairly large amount
>of ibogaine, at least, I’ve been told it was more than Mash gives
>her “normal” patients.
>    I was miserable on 2 60 MS-Contins a day the entire week after
>taking that dose. Now, I’m taking 2 MS-Contin 60s a day because I’ve
>managed to leave myself too little, but I’ve also been taking
>Wellbutron (to help stop smoking, but didn’t take it today, planning
>on not taking it anymore since it does have serious sexual side
>effects and the tv commercials specifically warn against taking it
>with liver problems, which I have) and seem to be doing just fine on
>2 a day.
>    My question is: How long do people think withdrawals would last
>if I just got up tomorrow and didn’t take the MS-Contin, and just
>stopped taking it period? It couldn’t possibly be as bad as kicking
>cold turkey over a gram a day of good brown London dope, now could
>it, or walking away with my last week’s take home bottles of
>methadone in my fridge for almost three years and going through the
>withdrawals, right? All done without ibogaine, right?
>    The Comment/Other Question: Could taking the ibogaine last time
>have made me more reved up, causing me much more sleep problems (I
>also have a few Valiums to help me sleep through the worst of it, I
>hope- although from past experience they haven’t usually helped
>much) and caused me more trouble with “withdrawals” than had I
>simply not panicked and taken the ibogaine?
>    Anyway, I plan on rising tomorrow and seeing if I can just
>fucking kick this shit. I’m SO TIRED. (Where have we heard this
>before?) I have enough drugs (barely) but that’s not the point. I
>don’t always, and I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired- and
>ibogaine hasn’t done me anything else that any other treatment
>modality has done for me really, except give me access to magical
>realms and cut withdrawals, SOME OF THE TIMES I’ve taken it.
>
>
>Peace and love,
>Preston Peet
>
>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
>often mistaken for madness”
>Richard Davenport-Hines
>
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
>Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out
>Sept. 2005)
>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
>\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 27, 2005 at 9:45:02 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Nick

Am 27.09.2005 um 13:13 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
However, what you wrote was that you didn’t use heroin for repression and
that you used it because you thought it was cool. I said this sounds like
repression to me, and nothing you’ve put down here seems to change that.
ok, then this sounds like repression to you.

if it is repression on the other hand it is by definition
something you do not know. some therapists like to trap their patients
in a classic catch-22: either you confirm you have repressed material
or you deny and that is even more the prove for repression =)

Well, yes, it’s their job to try and get you to look at yourself.
no. it´s their job to help you. there is a big difference. it is well known that some systemic/behavioural approaches where you don´t look “inside” oftentimes lead to better and faster results than the recovery of repressed material and endless self-reflection which oftentimes makes things even worse (then the therapist will say that more pain is a sign of healing).

However,
therapy isn’t mandatory in society.
unfortunately some drug users and other misfits are pushed into therapy although they don´want to. the whole psychatric system is problematic.
If you feel totally happy in life then I
doubt you’d go see a therapist. If you call in a plumber, it because you
want to know what’s going on with your pipes. If you call in a therapist,
it’s because you want to know what’s going on in your unconscious.
no. i think a therapist is most often called by people who want to get rid of certain problems. when i call a plumber i want to have my pipes functioning again but i don´t care about the shit in the pipes or where it is stuck.

there are also people with a more intellectual and theoretical interest, like artists. they use therapy like analysis to get more motivation and ideas for their work and that is fine.

My experience is that everyone has repressed material.
if you search for it you will find it. personally i think it is a special way to look at things, one way out of many.

do you think repression is a problem?

It’s in the nature of
being human. I never met anyone who I thought didn’t.
how about your guru, baghwan/osho?

Mostly I think it’s
quite exciting to find out what’s going on inside really.
exactly. it´s better to find out what´s really going on than to do therapy. to look beyond all those games.
Why not surrender
to the therapists and see what happens?
why not surrender to a bunch of idiots and see what happens?

a zen master i practice with since 10 yrs is also a psychologist who works as a therapist since 30 years. he never recommended me to do therapy, even when i was on H, but encouraged me to practice more zen. and i doubt he does the kind of therapy you have in mind, where people have to surrender. Nick, do you work as a therapist? what methods do you use?

Just for the experience.
i once did some psychoanalysis for a few weeks. was fun but i already have friends to chat with and they don´t charge money.
After all,
if you have no repressed material, what is there to fear?
there is nothing to fear.

ekki

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 9:38:33 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt,
please don´t loose your body. you might be reborn as a ghost without any body. that sucks even more than having a body.
anyway, good luck

love
ekki

Am 27.09.2005 um 15:25 schrieb matthew zielinski:

Preston bro

when it comes to the wd u know exactly what to expect–u get my drift right…..i mean i remember i posted here once about oxys wd just hoping praying that people would say nah dont worry its not going to be as bad when deep down i knew exactly what it was going to be…..

im sick now and waiting for my order to arrive any day now, quite possibly today so im anxious as hell…..

in the end life is a game thats why so many people are so fuken diveresed cause we all want to experience all kinds of realities in different bodies yet in the end its only up to us to change what we dont like……but yah like thats fuken easy

i hope i get my package today and the spiriti of eboga will bequath to me her fiery gift~~!!

love

matt

 

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 9:25:31 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston bro
when it comes to the wd u know exactly what to expect–u get my drift right…..i mean i remember i posted here once about oxys wd just hoping praying that people would say nah dont worry its not going to be as bad when deep down i knew exactly what it was going to be…..
im sick now and waiting for my order to arrive any day now, quite possibly today so im anxious as hell…..
in the end life is a game thats why so many people are so fuken diveresed cause we all want to experience all kinds of realities in different bodies yet in the end its only up to us to change what we dont like……but yah like thats fuken easy
i hope i get my package today and the spiriti of eboga will bequath to me her fiery gift~~!!
love
matt

 

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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] passing of Sean
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:47:36 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was online this morning and a friend of Seans IMed me and informed me that Sean passed away Labor Day weekend of an overdose!
So very sad.
Just wanted to let you all know. You probably do already. I am subscribed to Digest so I get behind on news. In fact, I am going to change that right now!
Hope you all are doing well. I am fine.
Will write more later!
Callie

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void – ibogaine & false memory
Date: September 27, 2005 at 8:38:43 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

If one unravels oneself to the point where there is no pain, no anger and also forgiveness for those who you understand as having being the perpetrators of whatever occured to you, then what difference does the science of your memories make? You aint gonna use them to trash anyone unless you are into the whole litigation thing which is quite possibly not the basis for healing …..

To get caught up in the need to prove ones memories or justify them, is for me a somewhat foreign and pointless exercise. The effort should go into the healing where the real truth lies. To do otherwise is to play the role of a victim or risk becoming confused and deluded. True knowing and accepting is part of the healing. Later comes forgiveness on some level.

If the recall involves someone in your life that you can confront without fear, one will soon know if there is any truth by the way in which matters evolve with that person … If you have doubts about your memories then you have not yet uncovered what has happened to you and you need to go back and do some more work on yourself.

Regarding Ibogaine & Memories of abuse:

I think the question is academic when it comes to ibogaine. In these matters what is uncovered in my experience resolves itself out of the symbolic into the actual – the symbolic being the opening scene in the unfolding of an issue which may take years to properly heal but takes much less time to know. Otherwise you have not yet uncovered the event. With this uncovering comes a lot of dark emotional energy and a knowing that has always been there but you have looked away from. (This I suppose is where the false memory theorists would say that this knowing is some self constructed fantasy to explain a set of unresolved early childhood emotions. Frankly I doubt that one would construct a fantasy on ibogaine which occurs at the age of 9 about being buggered complete with appropriate memories (before, after, during, trauma, complexes and changes in character, lifestyle etc post age 9). I think that “false memories” can only be supported by knowingly self-deluding oneself on some level and this is hardly a characteristic of ibogaine.

If this is not good enough as proof of what has happened for the outside observer (if one can be bothered to try and prove such things to help others who (some but not all) imo are struggling with their own repression and project onto you their own inner struggles) then the question perhaps should be:

Does the level of truth ibogaine exposes allow you to look at such false memories without realising that they don’t quite add up or are not true, i.e., does it support delf-delusion?

I am sure there are cases of false memory but my points are made in relation to ibogaine and not in relation to conventional therapy.

Regarding attributing other emotions to a particular abuse sceanario, with continued ibogaine/eboga treatment, all emotional baggage finds its rightful home.

Blaming others for pain instead of facing its true source is not kosha in ibogaine terms and imo is symptomatic of an unforgiving and unhealed state.

Regarding the symbolism of ibogaine. Yes, it does start out with a lot of symbolism but in the final stages of healing its clear up front reality you are watching. Yet, the supposed symbolism of the planet dying etc as somehow being a mirror of oneself I am not sure I buy into. The planet is dying and eboga in my experience cares a lot about these things.

Lee

slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something rather
than nothing.

Another thought: it is good to have a sense of healing as ongoing
work, be it 5 minutes of meditation a day, therapy, or whatever.
It’s like putting a little money in a savings account on a regular
basis – one gets used to it, and eventually there is something
substantial.

On the subject of false memory, there is certainly both true and
false memory. It may not always be possible to determine what
actually happened, but in any case there is always meaning to
painful memories. With all respect to people with true memories,
here are some thoughts on how false memories might arise:

Although true memory is only supposed to start around age 2 as I
understand it, I believe that some kind of memory extends previous
to that age, including the trauma of birth, diapering and the
reactions of the parents, and parental sex (maybe before birth as
well as after). As utterly dependant creatures, babies can be
completely caught up in parental feelings, and devastated by the
lack thereof. These experiences may have the same impact as overt
abuse at a later age. When one recovers some awareness of them, it
is from the perspective of a formed consciousness, thus it is
easier to translate them to overt abuse occurring after
consciousness was formed because this is more understandable than
the emotional interpenetration of the baby/parent state.

Also if one has concrete memories of abuse, it can be easier to
attribute less understood types of suffering such as emotional
neglect to these memories than to wade into a nightmare without the
guideposts of a detailed scene or story.

Another possible source of false memory is that it might be easier
to blame others for pain in the same way that some primitive
societies attribute disease to witchcraft. This can be a way of
psychically shifting suffering to something that can be understood
in simple terms.

Adding ibogaine to these dynamics, it is commonly understood that
much of what it shows us is translated to symbolic terms in order
to achieve some degree of palatability, that many take literally at
first and eventually come to different interpretations of. Nick
gives an excellent description of this phenomenom here:

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg

I have spent a lot of time with people who have all sorts of abuse
experience. These musings are not intended to cast doubt on
anyone’s memories. Rather I want to point out that in working with
this kind of material it can be useful to keep many possibilities
in mind and not settle on one thing. If you have specific memories,
look beyond them as well to see what is in the shadows. And don’t
try too hard to know everything at once.

Here’s a support group for adult survivors of child abuse that has
some further discussion of memory and general support information:

http://www.ascasupport.org/

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 27, 2005 at 7:13:52 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 26 September 2005 23:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void

Am 26.09.2005 um 21:06 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Fair enough. I used to think junkies looked cool when I was in my
twenties.
They seemed kind of implacable in the face of all the lunacy of the
world,
all the sexuality, and all the control. Kind of like they were beating
the
system, invulnerable. Later I found out that heroin was a analgesic, a
drug
which stops you feeling, so actually all that was happening for them
was
that their emotional systems were being turned off. So, I wanted to ask
you – how do you know you weren’t taking the drug for repression?
Sounds to
me like seeking coolness is seeking repression.

Nick

Yo Nick!
“repression” in the psychological sense means unconscious avoidance of
facing certain issues.

Hi Ekki,

Yes, this sounds about right. Though what constitutes “conscious” is a grey
area, I’d say. Classically, repression is mediated by the limbic area of the
brain which is really on the border of conscious/unconscious. In a state of
heightened awareness you may catch yourself “switching off”, other times it
just happens.

when you use drugs to avoid feelings and you
know about it then it is a very conscious way of avoidance and thus not
repression.

Yes, if you are in physical or emotional pain and you use heroin to make it
stop then I would say that is certainly a consciously mediated act of
repression.

However, what you wrote was that you didn’t use heroin for repression and
that you used it because you thought it was cool. I said this sounds like
repression to me, and nothing you’ve put down here seems to change that.

if it is repression on the other hand it is by definition
something you do not know. some therapists like to trap their patients
in a classic catch-22: either you confirm you have repressed material
or you deny and that is even more the prove for repression =)

Well, yes, it’s their job to try and get you to look at yourself. However,
therapy isn’t mandatory in society. If you feel totally happy in life then I
doubt you’d go see a therapist. If you call in a plumber, it because you
want to know what’s going on with your pipes. If you call in a therapist,
it’s because you want to know what’s going on in your unconscious.

My experience is that everyone has repressed material. It’s in the nature of
being human. I never met anyone who I thought didn’t. Mostly I think it’s
quite exciting to find out what’s going on inside really. Why not surrender
to the therapists and see what happens? Just for the experience. After all,
if you have no repressed material, what is there to fear?

Nick

the day when i was deciding to use every day i was already on drugs and
an occasional consumer of H for years. i felt i needed a change and
heroin worked very well. glad i did it and glad i came across ibogaine.

here is a nice story from india, maybe you already know it. the buddha
liked to tell it when people came up with “why?”:

There was a man who had been hit by a poisoned arrow and was
suffering.  Although his kinsmen and friends urged him to promptly
see a physician, the one who really counted, the man himself, asked:
“Was the person who shot me with the poisoned arrow a Brahman, a
commoner or a manservant?  And what was his name?  Was the
person tall or short?  What was the hue of his skin?  Where does he
live?  I cannot have the arrow extracted until I know these things.”
The man furthered  questioned and argued: “As for the bow used for
this poisoned arrow, what kind was it?  What material was the
bowstring made from?  And what about the shaft of the arrow, what
kind of feathers were used?  What about the type of poison?”
While he went on in this way, it is said that the poison coursed
throughout his whole body and the man unfortunately died.

cheers
ekki

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 27, 2005 at 4:48:50 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

guess I sent this a little late in the day, eh?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] question and observation

Hi all, I’d appreciate a little feedback this evening if anyone cares to give some.
Almost or about a month ago exactly, I ate a fairly large amount of ibogaine, at least, I’ve been told it was more than Mash gives her “normal” patients.
I was miserable on 2 60 MS-Contins a day the entire week after taking that dose. Now, I’m taking 2 MS-Contin 60s a day because I’ve managed to leave myself too little, but I’ve also been taking Wellbutron (to help stop smoking, but didn’t take it today, planning on not taking it anymore since it does have serious sexual side effects and the tv commercials specifically warn against taking it with liver problems, which I have) and seem to be doing just fine on 2 a day.
My question is: How long do people think withdrawals would last if I just got up tomorrow and didn’t take the MS-Contin, and just stopped taking it period? It couldn’t possibly be as bad as kicking cold turkey over a gram a day of good brown London dope, now could it, or walking away with my last week’s take home bottles of methadone in my fridge for almost three years and going through the withdrawals, right? All done without ibogaine, right?
The Comment/Other Question: Could taking the ibogaine last time have made me more reved up, causing me much more sleep problems (I also have a few Valiums to help me sleep through the worst of it, I hope- although from past experience they haven’t usually helped much) and caused me more trouble with “withdrawals” than had I simply not panicked and taken the ibogaine?
Anyway, I plan on rising tomorrow and seeing if I can just fucking kick this shit. I’m SO TIRED. (Where have we heard this before?) I have enough drugs (barely) but that’s not the point. I don’t always, and I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired- and ibogaine hasn’t done me anything else that any other treatment modality has done for me really, except give me access to magical realms and cut withdrawals, SOME OF THE TIMES I’ve taken it.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] question and observation
Date: September 26, 2005 at 11:47:08 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all, I’d appreciate a little feedback this evening if anyone cares to give some.
Almost or about a month ago exactly, I ate a fairly large amount of ibogaine, at least, I’ve been told it was more than Mash gives her “normal” patients.
I was miserable on 2 60 MS-Contins a day the entire week after taking that dose. Now, I’m taking 2 MS-Contin 60s a day because I’ve managed to leave myself too little, but I’ve also been taking Wellbutron (to help stop smoking, but didn’t take it today, planning on not taking it anymore since it does have serious sexual side effects and the tv commercials specifically warn against taking it with liver problems, which I have) and seem to be doing just fine on 2 a day.
My question is: How long do people think withdrawals would last if I just got up tomorrow and didn’t take the MS-Contin, and just stopped taking it period? It couldn’t possibly be as bad as kicking cold turkey over a gram a day of good brown London dope, now could it, or walking away with my last week’s take home bottles of methadone in my fridge for almost three years and going through the withdrawals, right? All done without ibogaine, right?
The Comment/Other Question: Could taking the ibogaine last time have made me more reved up, causing me much more sleep problems (I also have a few Valiums to help me sleep through the worst of it, I hope- although from past experience they haven’t usually helped much) and caused me more trouble with “withdrawals” than had I simply not panicked and taken the ibogaine?
Anyway, I plan on rising tomorrow and seeing if I can just fucking kick this shit. I’m SO TIRED. (Where have we heard this before?) I have enough drugs (barely) but that’s not the point. I don’t always, and I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired- and ibogaine hasn’t done me anything else that any other treatment modality has done for me really, except give me access to magical realms and cut withdrawals, SOME OF THE TIMES I’ve taken it.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] as is
Date: September 26, 2005 at 8:37:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

=)
Antivenom
[edit]

Natural and acquired immunity

Although individuals can vary in their
physiopathological response and sensitivity to animal
venoms, (some animals, particularly the ophiophagic
ones, i.e., that feed on venomous snakes, are
genetically immune to some species, by the presence of
antihemorrhagic and antineurotoxic factors in their
blood).

glad
way
to promptly
see,

cheers   coursed
throughout fortunate friends

:\]

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.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: September 26, 2005 at 8:29:22 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Messageone of the oldest scams I’ve ever come across online- the very first week I was online. This IS a scam, please believe me.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Faye, Shawn
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: luke.christofersen@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 6:45 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

scam snipped for lack of wanting to pass on the form letter yet again….

**************************************************************

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From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine on radio
Date: September 26, 2005 at 7:28:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It sounds like an American toothpaste ad.

From:  Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine on radio
Date:  Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:16:18 -0700 (PDT)
>Fun report that says nothing new, best part is Patrick’s soundbites
>promoting Mexico (not Mash’s version 😉 How much did they pay you? 😉
>
>.:vector:.
>
>— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Two short radio segments on ibogaine are available at,
> >
> >  http://www.linder.com/ibogaine/
> >
> >
> > Howard
> >
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Yahoo! Mail – PC Magazine Editors’ Choice 2005
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>   /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
>
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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: September 26, 2005 at 7:07:03 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Two points I would like to make
1. There is noway for internet companies like Microsoft and AOL to track emails, so any emails LIKE this are bullshit. Delete them immediately or at least take five minutes to go to a hoax website to confirm validity.  PLEASE for the LOVE OF GOD.
2. Is there nobody you know that understands the concept of BCC??????  It hides email addresses.
Kirk
From: Faye, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Faye@NorthSafety.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:45 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: luke.christofersen@gmail.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

From: Wilson, Jared 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 10:44 AM
To: All North Users
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

—–Original Message—–
From: Eric Grilli [mailto:EGrilli@elitespice.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:19 AM
To: LEIF_CHRISTENSEN@patagonia.com; ERIC_AND_CHRISTINA@SBCGLOBAL.NET; Wilson, Jared
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

From: Barbara Mack 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:05 AM
To: Administrator; Andrea Duer; Andrew Wales; Annette Dill; Arnulfo Ruiz; Balta Morales; Barbara Mack; Bill Henry; Brian Upton; Carlos Onofre; Ches Wheeler; Chris Leo; Cliffton Johnson; Craig Bohle; Craig Riley; Dawn Wykoff; Dean Cook; Debbie Ingle; Debbie Whitcomb; Denise Tenney; Diane Townsend; Drew Andrews; Earl Garrett; Ed Najera; Ed Upton; Eric Grilli; Erin Carrington; Frank Appice; Galina Shkolnik; Gene Dickman; George Meyer; Ginny Kunkel; Holli Romero; Jennie Wykoff; Jennifer Latham; Jennifer MacDaniel; Jerry Saiz; Joe Freiert; Joe McDiarmid; Joe Stickel; Joellen Busch; John Brandt; Joyce Buck; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Keith Cook; Ken Wainwright; Kevin McReynolds; Kris Schutz; Krissy Nieman; Larry Gonzalez; Larry Whitlock; Laura Dyer; Linda Allen; Linda Yates; Liz Morris; Lupe Onofre; Margie Singer; Maria Gomez; Maria Rain; Melinda Fernandez; Michelle McHale; Nancy Marcus; Nichole Justice; Pam Mullan; Pete Gyening; Pete Walor; Phillip Peterson; Pia Barbarite; Ree Kem; Ricardo; Robb Stuller; Robert Canlas; Sabrina Fiers; Scott MacAdams; Sheila Taylor; Stacy Straub; Steve McLaren; Steve Toy; Susan Ward; Tamar Hernandez; Tanya Collazo; Tim Skreen; Tim Walker; Tony Grenis; Tricia Guisasola; Valeri Mull; Angela Mandel (AngelaMandel@hotmail.com); Celeste Bossle (Cbossle@comcast.net); Debbie Pusateri (dpusateri@cms.hhs.gov); Ellen Prucha (pruchae@mac.com); Heather Hollenbach (hmhbach@hotmail.com); Jean Brolund (jeanbrolund@comcast.net); Julie Howard (julie.howard10@verizon.net); Kathy Brownley (tkbrownley@comcast.net); Leslie Donohue (lesliedono@aol.com); Lisa Kokes (kokes@comcast.net); Mark Doran; Mary Jean Mazzafro (mjdmaz@aol.com); Meggin Collins (Meggins@comcast.net); Melissa Bossle (mbzohdi@hotmail.com); Missy Mack (mackm@RPCS.org); Nancy Wilson (springgarden@adelphia.net); Pam Konetzni (PJKonetzni@aol.com); Pat Barnes (cddkh@allstate.com); roy bensen; Teresa Bateman; Teresa Billet (Billetx4@comcast.net); Valerie Gagnon (vmgagnon@hotmail.com)
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

Okay, this can’t hurt!!!!!

Barbara A. Mack
Accounts Receivable Manager

Elite Spice, Inc.
7151 Montevideo Road
Jessup, Maryland 20794
Phone: 410-796-1900
Fax: 410-379-6933
—–Original Message—–
From: Linda Allen 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: Andrea Duer; Barbara Mack; Brian Upton; Chris Leo; Debbie Ingle; Denise Tenney; Ginny Kunkel; Holli Romero; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Ken Wainwright; Leslie Kremer; Melinda Fernandez; Nancy Marcus; Pam Mullan; Pia Barbarite; Tanya Collazo
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

Linda Allen
Elite Spice Inc.
Phone: 410-796-1900
Fax:  410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Krissy Nieman 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:38 AM
To: ‘Brenda Royce’; ‘edonelan@frankparsons.com’; ‘Deborah Morris’; ‘Melissa D. Lachman, MS, ATC’; ‘GLENN BIDGOOD’; Linda Allen
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

Thank You
Krissy Nieman
Elite Spice
410.796.1900 ext242

—–Original Message—–
From: Lorri Ericson [mailto:LAEricson@reachone.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 2:10 PM
To: laericson@aol.com
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

May be a scam, but really need the $$, so can’t hurt to give it a try.
THIS TOOK TWO PAGES OF THE TUESDAY USA TODAY – IT IS FOR REAL



 Kathy South Alcoa – EHS Maintenance Coordinator, Phone: 765/771 – 3547

Pager : 765/420 – 6575

       To all of my friends, I do not usually forward messages, But this

is

       from my friend Pearlas Sandborn and she really is an attorney.





 If she says that this will work – It will work. After all, What have

you  got to lose?

       SORRY EVERYBODY.. JUST HAD TO TAKE THE CHANCE!!! I’m an attorney,

       And I know the law. This thing is for real. Rest assured AOL and

    &nbs p;  Intel will follow through with their promises for fear of facing

a

       multimillion-dollar class action suit similar to the one filed by

       PepsiCo against General Electric not too long ago.





       Dear Friends; Please do not take this for a junk letter. Bill

Gates

       sharing his fortune. If you ignore this, You will repent later.

       Microsoft and AOL are now the largest Internet companies and in

an

       effort to make sure that Internet Explorer remains the most

widely

       used program, Microsoft and AOL are running an e-mail beta test.



       When you forward this e-mail to friends, Microsoft can and wi ll

       track it (If you are a Microsoft Windows user) For a two weeks

time

       period.





 For every person that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft will pay

you  $245.00 For every person that you sent it to that forwards it on,

Microsoft will pay you $243.00 and for every third person that receives

it, You will be paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will contact

you  for your address and then send you a check.



 Regards. Charles S Bailey General Manager Field Operations



 1-800-842-2332 Ext. 1085 or 904-1085 or RNX

 292-1085 Charles_Bailey@csx.com

 Charles_bailey@csx.com



 thought this was a scam myself, But two weeks after receiving this

e-mail  and forwarding it on. Microsoft contacted me for my address and

withindays, &! gt; receive a check for $24,800.00. You need to  respond

before the beta testing is over. If anyone can affoard this, Bill  gates

is the man.





 It’s all marketing expense to him. Please forward this to as many

people  as possible. You are bound to get at least $10,000.00 We’re not

going to  help them out with their e-mail beta test without getting a

little  something for our time. My brother’s girlfriend got in on this a

few  months ago. When i went to visit him for the Baylor/UT game. She

showed me  her check. It was for the sum of $4,324.44 and was stamped

”Paid in full”



 Like i said before, I know the law, and this is for real.




**************************************************************

From: “Faye, Shawn” <Shawn.Faye@NorthSafety.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …
Date: September 26, 2005 at 6:45:10 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <luke.christofersen@gmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

From: Wilson, Jared 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 10:44 AM
To: All North Users
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

—–Original Message—–
From: Eric Grilli [mailto:EGrilli@elitespice.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:19 AM
To: LEIF_CHRISTENSEN@patagonia.com; ERIC_AND_CHRISTINA@SBCGLOBAL.NET; Wilson, Jared
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

From: Barbara Mack 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:05 AM
To: Administrator; Andrea Duer; Andrew Wales; Annette Dill; Arnulfo Ruiz; Balta Morales; Barbara Mack; Bill Henry; Brian Upton; Carlos Onofre; Ches Wheeler; Chris Leo; Cliffton Johnson; Craig Bohle; Craig Riley; Dawn Wykoff; Dean Cook; Debbie Ingle; Debbie Whitcomb; Denise Tenney; Diane Townsend; Drew Andrews; Earl Garrett; Ed Najera; Ed Upton; Eric Grilli; Erin Carrington; Frank Appice; Galina Shkolnik; Gene Dickman; George Meyer; Ginny Kunkel; Holli Romero; Jennie Wykoff; Jennifer Latham; Jennifer MacDaniel; Jerry Saiz; Joe Freiert; Joe McDiarmid; Joe Stickel; Joellen Busch; John Brandt; Joyce Buck; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Keith Cook; Ken Wainwright; Kevin McReynolds; Kris Schutz; Krissy Nieman; Larry Gonzalez; Larry Whitlock; Laura Dyer; Linda Allen; Linda Yates; Liz Morris; Lupe Onofre; Margie Singer; Maria Gomez; Maria Rain; Melinda Fernandez; Michelle McHale; Nancy Marcus; Nichole Justice; Pam Mullan; Pete Gyening; Pete Walor; Phillip Peterson; Pia Barbarite; Ree Kem; Ricardo; Robb Stuller; Robert Canlas; Sabrina Fiers; Scott MacAdams; Sheila Taylor; Stacy Straub; Steve McLaren; Steve Toy; Susan Ward; Tamar Hernandez; Tanya Collazo; Tim Skreen; Tim Walker; Tony Grenis; Tricia Guisasola; Valeri Mull; Angela Mandel (AngelaMandel@hotmail.com); Celeste Bossle (Cbossle@comcast.net); Debbie Pusateri (dpusateri@cms.hhs.gov); Ellen Prucha (pruchae@mac.com); Heather Hollenbach (hmhbach@hotmail.com); Jean Brolund (jeanbrolund@comcast.net); Julie Howard (julie.howard10@verizon.net); Kathy Brownley (tkbrownley@comcast.net); Leslie Donohue (lesliedono@aol.com); Lisa Kokes (kokes@comcast.net); Mark Doran; Mary Jean Mazzafro (mjdmaz@aol.com); Meggin Collins (Meggins@comcast.net); Melissa Bossle (mbzohdi@hotmail.com); Missy Mack (mackm@RPCS.org); Nancy Wilson (springgarden@adelphia.net); Pam Konetzni (PJKonetzni@aol.com); Pat Barnes (cddkh@allstate.com); roy bensen; Teresa Bateman; Teresa Billet (Billetx4@comcast.net); Valerie Gagnon (vmgagnon@hotmail.com)
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

Okay, this can’t hurt!!!!!

Barbara A. Mack
Accounts Receivable Manager

Elite Spice, Inc.
7151 Montevideo Road
Jessup, Maryland 20794
Phone: 410-796-1900
Fax: 410-379-6933
—–Original Message—–
From: Linda Allen 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: Andrea Duer; Barbara Mack; Brian Upton; Chris Leo; Debbie Ingle; Denise Tenney; Ginny Kunkel; Holli Romero; Joyce Cole; Kathy Lyons; Ken Wainwright; Leslie Kremer; Melinda Fernandez; Nancy Marcus; Pam Mullan; Pia Barbarite; Tanya Collazo
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

Linda Allen
Elite Spice Inc.
Phone: 410-796-1900
Fax:  410-379-6933

—–Original Message—–
From: Krissy Nieman 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:38 AM
To: ‘Brenda Royce’; ‘edonelan@frankparsons.com’; ‘Deborah Morris’; ‘Melissa D. Lachman, MS, ATC’; ‘GLENN BIDGOOD’; Linda Allen
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

Thank You
Krissy Nieman
Elite Spice
410.796.1900 ext242

—–Original Message—–
From: Lorri Ericson [mailto:LAEricson@reachone.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 2:10 PM
To: laericson@aol.com
Subject: FW: PLEEEEEEASE REEEEEAD! IT WAS ON GOOD MORNING AMERICA TODAY SHOW …

May be a scam, but really need the $$, so can’t hurt to give it a try.
THIS TOOK TWO PAGES OF THE TUESDAY USA TODAY – IT IS FOR REAL



 Kathy South Alcoa – EHS Maintenance Coordinator, Phone: 765/771 – 3547

Pager : 765/420 – 6575

       To all of my friends, I do not usually forward messages, But this

is

       from my friend Pearlas Sandborn and she really is an attorney.





 If she says that this will work – It will work. After all, What have

you  got to lose?

       SORRY EVERYBODY.. JUST HAD TO TAKE THE CHANCE!!! I’m an attorney,

       And I know the law. This thing is for real. Rest assured AOL and

    &nbs p;  Intel will follow through with their promises for fear of facing

a

       multimillion-dollar class action suit similar to the one filed by

       PepsiCo against General Electric not too long ago.





       Dear Friends; Please do not take this for a junk letter. Bill

Gates

       sharing his fortune. If you ignore this, You will repent later.

       Microsoft and AOL are now the largest Internet companies and in

an

       effort to make sure that Internet Explorer remains the most

widely

       used program, Microsoft and AOL are running an e-mail beta test.



       When you forward this e-mail to friends, Microsoft can and wi ll

       track it (If you are a Microsoft Windows user) For a two weeks

time

       period.





 For every person that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft will pay

you  $245.00 For every person that you sent it to that forwards it on,

Microsoft will pay you $243.00 and for every third person that receives

it, You will be paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will contact

you  for your address and then send you a check.



 Regards. Charles S Bailey General Manager Field Operations



 1-800-842-2332 Ext. 1085 or 904-1085 or RNX

 292-1085 Charles_Bailey@csx.com

 Charles_bailey@csx.com



 thought this was a scam myself, But two weeks after receiving this

e-mail  and forwarding it on. Microsoft contacted me for my address and

withindays, &! gt; receive a check for $24,800.00. You need to  respond

before the beta testing is over. If anyone can affoard this, Bill  gates

is the man.





 It’s all marketing expense to him. Please forward this to as many

people  as possible. You are bound to get at least $10,000.00 We’re not

going to  help them out with their e-mail beta test without getting a

little  something for our time. My brother’s girlfriend got in on this a

few  months ago. When i went to visit him for the Baylor/UT game. She

showed me  her check. It was for the sum of $4,324.44 and was stamped

”Paid in full”



 Like i said before, I know the law, and this is for real.




**************************************************************

From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Expensive treatments…
Date: September 26, 2005 at 6:40:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve noticed over the past couple of weeks as I’ve been going through my Ibo list in box that there are a lot of people looking for inexpensive treatment alternatives in and around the US. They do exist. If you need more info please email me off the list. -M.

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Providers in Toronto
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:01:49 -0400

Hey K
I ordered it from ethnogarden
Love
Matt

 

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Get the NEW version of MSN Messenger with Video Conversation – it’s FREE! /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 26, 2005 at 6:40:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 26.09.2005 um 21:06 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Fair enough. I used to think junkies looked cool when I was in my twenties.
They seemed kind of implacable in the face of all the lunacy of the world,
all the sexuality, and all the control. Kind of like they were beating the
system, invulnerable. Later I found out that heroin was a analgesic, a drug
which stops you feeling, so actually all that was happening for them was
that their emotional systems were being turned off. So, I wanted to ask
you – how do you know you weren’t taking the drug for repression? Sounds to
me like seeking coolness is seeking repression.

Nick

Yo Nick!
“repression” in the psychological sense means unconscious avoidance of facing certain issues. when you use drugs to avoid feelings and you know about it then it is a very conscious way of avoidance and thus not repression. if it is repression on the other hand it is by definition something you do not know. some therapists like to trap their patients in a classic catch-22: either you confirm you have repressed material or you deny and that is even more the prove for repression =)

the day when i was deciding to use every day i was already on drugs and an occasional consumer of H for years. i felt i needed a change and heroin worked very well. glad i did it and glad i came across ibogaine.

here is a nice story from india, maybe you already know it. the buddha liked to tell it when people came up with “why?”:

There was a man who had been hit by a poisoned arrow and was
suffering.  Although his kinsmen and friends urged him to promptly
see a physician, the one who really counted, the man himself, asked:
“Was the person who shot me with the poisoned arrow a Brahman, a
commoner or a manservant?  And what was his name?  Was the
person tall or short?  What was the hue of his skin?  Where does he
live?  I cannot have the arrow extracted until I know these things.”
The man furthered  questioned and argued: “As for the bow used for
this poisoned arrow, what kind was it?  What material was the
bowstring made from?  And what about the shaft of the arrow, what
kind of feathers were used?  What about the type of poison?”
While he went on in this way, it is said that the poison coursed
throughout his whole body and the man unfortunately died.

cheers
ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Providers in Toronto
Date: September 26, 2005 at 6:01:49 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey K
I ordered it from ethnogarden
Love
Matt

 

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Providers in Toronto
Date: September 26, 2005 at 5:41:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt,

From  where did you order your ibo?
thanks,

Kiersten

On Sep 26, 2005, at 10:42 AM, matthew zielinski wrote:

Hi

Im actually looking for a sitter not a provider, somebody experienced in administering ibo–in and  around Toronto.

I m just waiting for my order to arrive and since i have  a few minor heart problems i thoughy it through and it would be wiser to come out on top of this expeirence rather than starting this journey again in another body.

Any help appreciated

Love

Matt

 

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*  /]=———————————————————————=[\  [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 26, 2005 at 3:06:16 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 26 September 2005 19:24
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void

Am 26.09.2005 um 15:11 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Hey Ekki,

Might I ask, why were you on heroin?

i found it cool

Fair enough. I used to think junkies looked cool when I was in my twenties.
They seemed kind of implacable in the face of all the lunacy of the world,
all the sexuality, and all the control. Kind of like they were beating the
system, invulnerable. Later I found out that heroin was a analgesic, a drug
which stops you feeling, so actually all that was happening for them was
that their emotional systems were being turned off. So, I wanted to ask
you – how do you know you weren’t taking the drug for repression? Sounds to
me like seeking coolness is seeking repression.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 26, 2005 at 2:24:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 26.09.2005 um 15:11 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Hey Ekki,

Might I ask, why were you on heroin?

i found it cool

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Providers in Toronto
Date: September 26, 2005 at 1:42:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Im actually looking for a sitter not a provider, somebody experienced in administering ibo–in and  around Toronto.
I m just waiting for my order to arrive and since i have  a few minor heart problems i thoughy it through and it would be wiser to come out on top of this expeirence rather than starting this journey again in another body.
Any help appreciated
Love
Matt

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ms Iboga(0t)
Date: September 26, 2005 at 1:03:58 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

would you email Ron off list?  rwd3@cox.net   many thanks
—– Original Message —–
From: Ms Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NA

dear sk,

I”m very happy NA works for you, but I’m quite surprised to hear you went to NA looking for ibogaine.  Seems like an exercise in futility, seeing as though NA condemns any and ALL drug use.

And btw, you don’t have to have $12,000 to get ibo treatment, so please stop spreading misinformation.  You can order ibogaine on the internet for $300/gm, as I’m sure you would have discovered if you had actually done some research, instead of just feeling sorry for yourself.  If you live in the US, get it sent to Canada or Mexico, and stop perpetuating this ‘powerless’ crap that is so prevalent in NA.  It’s truly nauseating.

smiles,

Julie

Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 26, 2005 at 9:11:05 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 26 September 2005 07:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void

Am 25.09.2005 um 20:20 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something rather
than nothing.
make god and parents disappear & see what is behind.

Adding ibogaine to these dynamics, it is commonly understood that
much of what it shows us is translated to symbolic terms in order
to achieve some degree of palatability, that many take literally at
first and eventually come to different interpretations of. Nick
gives an excellent description of this phenomenom here:
i came to the conclusion that there is no need to interpret anything
from my visions. the magic cannot be explained. knowledge and
understanding doesn´t help.

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg

quote:
“Psychologically, the action of ibogaine is always to attempt to bring
repressed material to light – to make conscious what is unconscious.”
while i consider this a legtimate view it should also be said that the
whole theory about repressed material is very controversial and much
debated among psychologists and neurologists. my own experiences with
ibogaine have been different, the visions were more like free play of
mind, but not my personal mind. nothing “repressed” came up and anyway
i was not on heroin because of repressed material.

Hey Ekki,

Might I ask, why were you on heroin?

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg


quote:
“With regard to concerns over ibogaine’s psychoactivity, it should be
noted that, unlike LSD, psilocybin, or DMT, ibogaine is not active at
the serotonin 2 receptor (5HT2), and thus may validly be regarded as
not being hallucinogenic.”

but ibogaine may be active at 5HT2:
http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html#_Toc444360986

Hofmann wrote more than 30 yrs ago:
“The disruption of natural functioning of serotonin by LSD was for some
time regarded as an explanation of its psychic effects. However, it was
soon shown that even certain derivatives of LSD (compounds in which the
chemical structure of LSD is slightly modified) that exhibit no
hallucinogenic properties, inhibit the effects of serotonin just as
strongly, or yet more strongly, than unaltered LSD. The
serotonin-blocking effect of LSD thus does not suffice to explain its
hallucinogenic properties.”

sorry if this is pedantic, but i thought it might be interesting.

Thanks for pointing that out. I’d better change the text. Haven’t read that
piece for a few years. If you find any more bits of wrong info please let me
know.

Nick

-ekki

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/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 26, 2005 at 9:05:35 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 25 September 2005 19:21
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] masks and void

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something rather
than nothing.

I think it’s a universal truth for consciousness. If your mind is reasonably
clear you can become aware that all the thoughts are just arising out of
nowhere and going back there. The whole experience of having a personality
is just constructed though identification with the process of thought. No
parents, no god, no nothing even. Sounds quite liberating when I think about
it, often quite scary when I’m going there.

This thing about masks presupposes that there is someone who can pull them
off, and finally there isn’t.

I like what you write about healing and false memory. I don’t think there
are any real answers, seems to be just the way things are.

Nick

Another thought: it is good to have a sense of healing as ongoing
work, be it 5 minutes of meditation a day, therapy, or whatever.
It’s like putting a little money in a savings account on a regular
basis – one gets used to it, and eventually there is something
substantial.

On the subject of false memory, there is certainly both true and
false memory. It may not always be possible to determine what
actually happened, but in any case there is always meaning to
painful memories. With all respect to people with true memories,
here are some thoughts on how false memories might arise:

Although true memory is only supposed to start around age 2 as I
understand it, I believe that some kind of memory extends previous
to that age, including the trauma of birth, diapering and the
reactions of the parents, and parental sex (maybe before birth as
well as after). As utterly dependant creatures, babies can be
completely caught up in parental feelings, and devastated by the
lack thereof. These experiences may have the same impact as overt
abuse at a later age. When one recovers some awareness of them, it
is from the perspective of a formed consciousness, thus it is
easier to translate them to overt abuse occurring after
consciousness was formed because this is more understandable than
the emotional interpenetration of the baby/parent state.

Also if one has concrete memories of abuse, it can be easier to
attribute less understood types of suffering such as emotional
neglect to these memories than to wade into a nightmare without the
guideposts of a detailed scene or story.

Another possible source of false memory is that it might be easier
to blame others for pain in the same way that some primitive
societies attribute disease to witchcraft. This can be a way of
psychically shifting suffering to something that can be understood
in simple terms.

Adding ibogaine to these dynamics, it is commonly understood that
much of what it shows us is translated to symbolic terms in order
to achieve some degree of palatability, that many take literally at
first and eventually come to different interpretations of. Nick
gives an excellent description of this phenomenom here:

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg

I have spent a lot of time with people who have all sorts of abuse
experience. These musings are not intended to cast doubt on
anyone’s memories. Rather I want to point out that in working with
this kind of material it can be useful to keep many possibilities
in mind and not settle on one thing. If you have specific memories,
look beyond them as well to see what is in the shadows. And don’t
try too hard to know everything at once.

Here’s a support group for adult survivors of child abuse that has
some further discussion of memory and general support information:

http://www.ascasupport.org/

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

/]=—————————————————————
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 26, 2005 at 2:18:49 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 25.09.2005 um 20:20 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something rather
than nothing.
make god and parents disappear & see what is behind.

Adding ibogaine to these dynamics, it is commonly understood that
much of what it shows us is translated to symbolic terms in order
to achieve some degree of palatability, that many take literally at
first and eventually come to different interpretations of. Nick
gives an excellent description of this phenomenom here:
i came to the conclusion that there is no need to interpret anything from my visions. the magic cannot be explained. knowledge and understanding doesn´t help.

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg

quote:
“Psychologically, the action of ibogaine is always to attempt to bring repressed material to light – to make conscious what is unconscious.”
while i consider this a legtimate view it should also be said that the whole theory about repressed material is very controversial and much debated among psychologists and neurologists. my own experiences with ibogaine have been different, the visions were more like free play of mind, but not my personal mind. nothing “repressed” came up and anyway i was not on heroin because of repressed material.

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg


quote:
“With regard to concerns over ibogaine’s psychoactivity, it should be noted that, unlike LSD, psilocybin, or DMT, ibogaine is not active at the serotonin 2 receptor (5HT2), and thus may validly be regarded as not being hallucinogenic.”

but ibogaine may be active at 5HT2: http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html#_Toc444360986

Hofmann wrote more than 30 yrs ago:
“The disruption of natural functioning of serotonin by LSD was for some time regarded as an explanation of its psychic effects. However, it was soon shown that even certain derivatives of LSD (compounds in which the chemical structure of LSD is slightly modified) that exhibit no hallucinogenic properties, inhibit the effects of serotonin just as strongly, or yet more strongly, than unaltered LSD. The serotonin-blocking effect of LSD thus does not suffice to explain its hallucinogenic properties.”

sorry if this is pedantic, but i thought it might be interesting.

-ekki

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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: [Ibogaine] masks and void
Date: September 25, 2005 at 2:20:35 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki said that after you peel off the masks, there is nothing. I
wonder if this is the truth experienced by people who had
inadequate parents. Maybe if parenting was adequate one finds
parents (or the same-sex parent) there, or God, or something rather
than nothing.

Another thought: it is good to have a sense of healing as ongoing
work, be it 5 minutes of meditation a day, therapy, or whatever.
It’s like putting a little money in a savings account on a regular
basis – one gets used to it, and eventually there is something
substantial.

On the subject of false memory, there is certainly both true and
false memory. It may not always be possible to determine what
actually happened, but in any case there is always meaning to
painful memories. With all respect to people with true memories,
here are some thoughts on how false memories might arise:

Although true memory is only supposed to start around age 2 as I
understand it, I believe that some kind of memory extends previous
to that age, including the trauma of birth, diapering and the
reactions of the parents, and parental sex (maybe before birth as
well as after). As utterly dependant creatures, babies can be
completely caught up in parental feelings, and devastated by the
lack thereof. These experiences may have the same impact as overt
abuse at a later age. When one recovers some awareness of them, it
is from the perspective of a formed consciousness, thus it is
easier to translate them to overt abuse occurring after
consciousness was formed because this is more understandable than
the emotional interpenetration of the baby/parent state.

Also if one has concrete memories of abuse, it can be easier to
attribute less understood types of suffering such as emotional
neglect to these memories than to wade into a nightmare without the
guideposts of a detailed scene or story.

Another possible source of false memory is that it might be easier
to blame others for pain in the same way that some primitive
societies attribute disease to witchcraft. This can be a way of
psychically shifting suffering to something that can be understood
in simple terms.

Adding ibogaine to these dynamics, it is commonly understood that
much of what it shows us is translated to symbolic terms in order
to achieve some degree of palatability, that many take literally at
first and eventually come to different interpretations of. Nick
gives an excellent description of this phenomenom here:

An Introduction to Ibogaine by: Nick Sandberg

I have spent a lot of time with people who have all sorts of abuse
experience. These musings are not intended to cast doubt on
anyone’s memories. Rather I want to point out that in working with
this kind of material it can be useful to keep many possibilities
in mind and not settle on one thing. If you have specific memories,
look beyond them as well to see what is in the shadows. And don’t
try too hard to know everything at once.

Here’s a support group for adult survivors of child abuse that has
some further discussion of memory and general support information:

http://www.ascasupport.org/

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity – Memory Recall
Date: September 25, 2005 at 12:36:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Luke,

I think the other thing to remember is this. When it comes to your partner the last thing you want is a dispute on what your own personal history is as that could lead to a lot of transferred anger on the subject.

Actually I have never sought confirmation on anything from my partner other than to maybe express some feelings and go through some emotional release. The journey itself I have always considered personal and that only I really know its truth. To expect someone else to be angry on your behalf based on a partial understanding at best is threading on dangerous, and possibly self delusional, ground.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee,
I normaly steer away from conversations about my childhood or my belief in the importance of healing repressed trauma with people as I get triggered to anger very easily by some people.   Some people would just say ‘that’s nonsense’ or something hurtfull.  It can be a bit alienating at times.

I had the same thought myself that a person who would go to such great lengths to dispute repression might have an agenda of there own reinforcing their denial of their own childhood. Perhaps there is also some concern that there are therapists or mental health practitioners that do steer people to imagining things that never happened. There are some areas of the mental health service that just remain in complete ignorance and border on abusive and barbaric towards people who are basically powerless and dependant on these services.  God knows what goes on behind the locked doors of mental institutes.  That’s not really related to false memories but maybe there is people who can create them.

I guess it is very hard for a person who hasn’t experienced recalling trauma to understand.

Luke

On 9/25/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Luke,

I feel some of what you do. There is a big difference between being mistaken about whether there was a green light or a red light at a junction based on sugggestion and the actual knowledge and deep knowing that one was buggered “for example” which can emerge with ibogaine. The exact details of such an event hardly matter, i.e. if your knickers were red or black.

The thought that went through my head when I started to look at the mentioned articles on false memory was this. Is it possible that this person (who wrote the article) was sexually abused and as an act of repression seeks to undermine other peoples recall of memories by creating an elaborate study on the subject? Thats probably OTT but it did occur to me as I have heard many discuss false memory as a way to dismiss people who claim to have been sexually abused.

Of course sexual abuse falls into many catagories and some would qualify for false memory perhaps. But certain types of abuse are clearly unmistakeable and discussion of false memory in such cases is quite possibly an affront to the person and an act of repression/denial on the part of the questioner imo.

What hurt me was when my ex would say to me was I sure those things happened to me. I didn’t argue with her as I felt it was undignified and I felt no need to prove anything. I just assured her I knew. However, I did feel a sense of lonliness and sadness at how difficult it was to simply state my own truth.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I haven’t read too much about the false memory thing but it angers me to see books like The Myth of Repression written.  I think repression is a fact of human nature.  I guess I’m very sensitive to this because I find it an insult to my own experiences when someone goes to such stong lengths to disput something that is very real.  I found I could verify much of the repressed memories that came back to me after ibogaine.  It is unfortunate that there maybe dangerous or manipulative therapists out there who may be able to implant things into the minds of vunerable people and thus making it more difficult for the genuine people and therapys to be accepted by mainstream psychology futher repressing peoples knowlege.

Luke

On 9/23/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
Ekki,

I appreciate the info and links. Based on what you have wrote I would have to say that the dose level I had in mind is well below the level you describe – way below what i have experienced in the past. I would call it a threashold dose where you are beginning to connect to the effects but are not quite there.

At the level I am interested in you can still connect somewhat to the bad feelings that you carry around but at the same time you can feel the warmth and the love that you can use to give yourself permission to look at these feelings.

Regarding false memory. My use of MDMA (if I were to use it) would be to work with material already known to the person based on insight gained via ibogaine or in some cases perhaps a focusing on difficult areas which have not been resolved to any particular event – I guess here it could be open to false memory. Again any new material which were to surface would need to be checked later in a follow up mini-session of ibogaine to verify it based on what you have said about the possibility of false memory.

The build up of unacknowledged shadow material via ibogaine can cause a form of emotional constipation which a very small slightly active dose of MDMA might help dislodge – as well as body work I imagine. I am refering to MDMA as a mini-tool alongside the main tool of ibogaine.

BTW these are all exploratory thoughts.

Best regards,

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
hi Lee
sorry if i did missunderstand you, but it sounded like you recommended
to drop a pill every fortnight. thanks for the links.
sure there will be no problems (except pimples and a hangover) for
nearly everybody when taking it only rarely. however i don´t find there
is much new stuff to experience or learn once you did it a few times
(same with most psychedelics) . anyway i´m not strictly anti-x.
here is a list from switzerland about purity of street xtc:
http://www.eve-rave.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3085

Am 23.09.2005 um 11:27 schrieb Lee Albert:
>
> BTW what do you consider the characteristics of a therapeutic dose to
> be? How would you describe them?
you love everything and everybody and yourself. sure i imagine too it
could be great for PTSD (postraumatic stuff) victims.

the way it changes perception of time and music is very interesting,
especially the 808 or 909 42thefloor bassdrum develops a magic that is
unmatched, you feel it right in your abdomen where your energy is
centered and it´s very warm and completely still and not moving as if
the music is a fixed sculpture.

once you realize with your heart that you only see yourself when
looking at others and that you only hear yourself when listening to
music you don´t need any X any more, but mdma can help you to get
there. opens the heart chakra.

E sometimes can leave a shallow aftertaste: you make friends or party
or have sex with strangers that you do not love without xtc or dance
euphorically to some cheap hardtrance eurodance music that you would
normally hate, and when it´s over you wake up like from a stupid dream.

when working with a psychotherapist who uses suggetive methods to
“unmask repressed material” chances are high that you unconsciously
invent fictional bad things that happend to you while you were are
child and in the long run this will make you miserable. this danger
always exists in therapy but it is much higher when hypnosis or drugs
are used.
this is not directly mdma related but psychologist prof. Elizabeth F.
Loftus did some interesting research about that phenomena, also giving
insight into the fragile way the memory works and how easily it can be
manipulated:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/

> What range do you believe they fall into and does it not depend on
> the person? Does weight have an effect? I would be interested in any
> answers you may have.

i already wrote 1-2mg/kg. of course there are individual differences in
sensibility etc, but from my experience i can say i had a better time
when dropping only one pill rather than when dropping 5 pills in one
night. i also had a better time when a few weeks had passed since the
last time of x-ing.

regards
ekki

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Finaly another session
Date: September 25, 2005 at 12:25:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

After a lot of soul searching and a few days in the can i have just placed an order for a gram of hcl.
It finally happened!!!
Now good people keep me in ur thoughts because wehn the package gets here its either rebirth again or temporary deaath in the literarl sense…..
peace and love my brohrs and sisters

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 25, 2005 at 11:55:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee,
I normaly steer away from conversations about my childhood or my belief in the importance of healing repressed trauma with people as I get triggered to anger very easily by some people.   Some people would just say ‘that’s nonsense’ or something hurtfull.  It can be a bit alienating at times.

I had the same thought myself that a person who would go to such great lengths to dispute repression might have an agenda of there own reinforcing their denial of their own childhood. Perhaps there is also some concern that there are therapists or mental health practitioners that do steer people to imagining things that never happened. There are some areas of the mental health service that just remain in complete ignorance and border on abusive and barbaric towards people who are basically powerless and dependant on these services.  God knows what goes on behind the locked doors of mental institutes.  That’s not really related to false memories but maybe there is people who can create them.

I guess it is very hard for a person who hasn’t experienced recalling trauma to understand.

Luke

On 9/25/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Luke,

I feel some of what you do. There is a big difference between being mistaken about whether there was a green light or a red light at a junction based on sugggestion and the actual knowledge and deep knowing that one was buggered “for example” which can emerge with ibogaine. The exact details of such an event hardly matter, i.e. if your knickers were red or black.

The thought that went through my head when I started to look at the mentioned articles on false memory was this. Is it possible that this person (who wrote the article) was sexually abused and as an act of repression seeks to undermine other peoples recall of memories by creating an elaborate study on the subject? Thats probably OTT but it did occur to me as I have heard many discuss false memory as a way to dismiss people who claim to have been sexually abused.

Of course sexual abuse falls into many catagories and some would qualify for false memory perhaps. But certain types of abuse are clearly unmistakeable and discussion of false memory in such cases is quite possibly an affront to the person and an act of repression/denial on the part of the questioner imo.

What hurt me was when my ex would say to me was I sure those things happened to me. I didn’t argue with her as I felt it was undignified and I felt no need to prove anything. I just assured her I knew. However, I did feel a sense of lonliness and sadness at how difficult it was to simply state my own truth.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I haven’t read too much about the false memory thing but it angers me to see books like The Myth of Repression written.  I think repression is a fact of human nature.  I guess I’m very sensitive to this because I find it an insult to my own experiences when someone goes to such stong lengths to disput something that is very real.  I found I could verify much of the repressed memories that came back to me after ibogaine.  It is unfortunate that there maybe dangerous or manipulative therapists out there who may be able to implant things into the minds of vunerable people and thus making it more difficult for the genuine people and therapys to be accepted by mainstream psychology futher repressing peoples knowlege.

Luke

On 9/23/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
Ekki,

I appreciate the info and links. Based on what you have wrote I would have to say that the dose level I had in mind is well below the level you describe – way below what i have experienced in the past. I would call it a threashold dose where you are beginning to connect to the effects but are not quite there.

At the level I am interested in you can still connect somewhat to the bad feelings that you carry around but at the same time you can feel the warmth and the love that you can use to give yourself permission to look at these feelings.

Regarding false memory. My use of MDMA (if I were to use it) would be to work with material already known to the person based on insight gained via ibogaine or in some cases perhaps a focusing on difficult areas which have not been resolved to any particular event – I guess here it could be open to false memory. Again any new material which were to surface would need to be checked later in a follow up mini-session of ibogaine to verify it based on what you have said about the possibility of false memory.

The build up of unacknowledged shadow material via ibogaine can cause a form of emotional constipation which a very small slightly active dose of MDMA might help dislodge – as well as body work I imagine. I am refering to MDMA as a mini-tool alongside the main tool of ibogaine.

BTW these are all exploratory thoughts.

Best regards,

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
hi Lee
sorry if i did missunderstand you, but it sounded like you recommended
to drop a pill every fortnight. thanks for the links.
sure there will be no problems (except pimples and a hangover) for
nearly everybody when taking it only rarely. however i don´t find there
is much new stuff to experience or learn once you did it a few times
(same with most psychedelics) . anyway i´m not strictly anti-x.
here is a list from switzerland about purity of street xtc:
http://www.eve-rave.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3085

Am 23.09.2005 um 11:27 schrieb Lee Albert:
>
> BTW what do you consider the characteristics of a therapeutic dose to
> be? How would you describe them?
you love everything and everybody and yourself. sure i imagine too it
could be great for PTSD (postraumatic stuff) victims.

the way it changes perception of time and music is very interesting,
especially the 808 or 909 42thefloor bassdrum develops a magic that is
unmatched, you feel it right in your abdomen where your energy is
centered and it´s very warm and completely still and not moving as if
the music is a fixed sculpture.

once you realize with your heart that you only see yourself when
looking at others and that you only hear yourself when listening to
music you don´t need any X any more, but mdma can help you to get
there. opens the heart chakra.

E sometimes can leave a shallow aftertaste: you make friends or party
or have sex with strangers that you do not love without xtc or dance
euphorically to some cheap hardtrance eurodance music that you would
normally hate, and when it´s over you wake up like from a stupid dream.

when working with a psychotherapist who uses suggetive methods to
“unmask repressed material” chances are high that you unconsciously
invent fictional bad things that happend to you while you were are
child and in the long run this will make you miserable. this danger
always exists in therapy but it is much higher when hypnosis or drugs
are used.
this is not directly mdma related but psychologist prof. Elizabeth F.
Loftus did some interesting research about that phenomena, also giving
insight into the fragile way the memory works and how easily it can be
manipulated:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/

> What range do you believe they fall into and does it not depend on
> the person? Does weight have an effect? I would be interested in any
> answers you may have.

i already wrote 1-2mg/kg. of course there are individual differences in
sensibility etc, but from my experience i can say i had a better time
when dropping only one pill rather than when dropping 5 pills in one
night. i also had a better time when a few weeks had passed since the
last time of x-ing.

regards
ekki

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] MDMA Book – Ecstasy:The Complete Guide
Date: September 25, 2005 at 10:54:14 AM EDT
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ecstasy: the Complete Guide
Edited by Julie Holland, M.D.

A comprehensive look at the risks and benefits of MDMA with contributions by Andrew Weil, Ralph Metzner, Rick Doblin, Douglas Rushkoff, Sasha and Ann Shulgin, Rabbi Zalman Schachter, and others.

24 chapters, 450+ pages. softback.
$19.95/copy

For those interested in this subject click on this link for 2 reviews, book and purchase info:

http://www.maps.org/xguide/

All proceeds from the sale of the book Ecstasy: the Complete Guide (Park Street Press 2001) will go towards funding clinical research with MDMA. n.b. It is possible to purchase this book at a lower price.

Some extracts from reviews:

“After reading The Complete Guide, one gets the impression that this “soul-penicillin” should be used intentionally and infrequently. Anne Shulgin suggests that one should use MDMA no more then four times a year.”

“The Complete Guide is packed with the confessions of 30 researchers who expertly opine on MDMA. In tandem they assert that “the judicious, supervised, and infrequent use of single oral does of MDMA as a psychiatric medicine may be a revolutionary tool to assist the fields of psychology and psychiatry.””

“Ecstasy provides the latest facts on MDMA Ð its history, pharmacology, chemistry, effects, side effects, risks, benefits, legal status, cultural and spiritual uses — and more.”

“Ecstasy largely focuses on the beneficial uses of the drug for ailments like post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression and schizophrenia. Psychedelics scholar Rick Doblin, PhD., (www.maps.org) presents a lucid argument for MDMA as a legal prescription medicine, and several clinical studies on humans performed worldwide indicate that there are few risks and possibly many benefits from using MDMA as a legitimate medicine.”

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 25, 2005 at 8:20:27 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Luke,

I feel some of what you do. There is a big difference between being mistaken about whether there was a green light or a red light at a junction based on sugggestion and the actual knowledge and deep knowing that one was buggered “for example” which can emerge with ibogaine. The exact details of such an event hardly matter, i.e. if your knickers were red or black.

The thought that went through my head when I started to look at the mentioned articles on false memory was this. Is it possible that this person (who wrote the article) was sexually abused and as an act of repression seeks to undermine other peoples recall of memories by creating an elaborate study on the subject? Thats probably OTT but it did occur to me as I have heard many discuss false memory as a way to dismiss people who claim to have been sexually abused.

Of course sexual abuse falls into many catagories and some would qualify for false memory perhaps. But certain types of abuse are clearly unmistakeable and discussion of false memory in such cases is quite possibly an affront to the person and an act of repression/denial on the part of the questioner imo.

What hurt me was when my ex would say to me was I sure those things happened to me. I didn’t argue with her as I felt it was undignified and I felt no need to prove anything. I just assured her I knew. However, I did feel a sense of lonliness and sadness at how difficult it was to simply state my own truth.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I haven’t read too much about the false memory thing but it angers me to see books like The Myth of Repression written.  I think repression is a fact of human nature.  I guess I’m very sensitive to this because I find it an insult to my own experiences when someone goes to such stong lengths to disput something that is very real.  I found I could verify much of the repressed memories that came back to me after ibogaine.  It is unfortunate that there maybe dangerous or manipulative therapists out there who may be able to implant things into the minds of vunerable people and thus making it more difficult for the genuine people and therapys to be accepted by mainstream psychology futher repressing peoples knowlege.

Luke

On 9/23/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ekki,

I appreciate the info and links. Based on what you have wrote I would have to say that the dose level I had in mind is well below the level you describe – way below what i have experienced in the past. I would call it a threashold dose where you are beginning to connect to the effects but are not quite there.

At the level I am interested in you can still connect somewhat to the bad feelings that you carry around but at the same time you can feel the warmth and the love that you can use to give yourself permission to look at these feelings.

Regarding false memory. My use of MDMA (if I were to use it) would be to work with material already known to the person based on insight gained via ibogaine or in some cases perhaps a focusing on difficult areas which have not been resolved to any particular event – I guess here it could be open to false memory. Again any new material which were to surface would need to be checked later in a follow up mini-session of ibogaine to verify it based on what you have said about the possibility of false memory.

The build up of unacknowledged shadow material via ibogaine can cause a form of emotional constipation which a very small slightly active dose of MDMA might help dislodge – as well as body work I imagine. I am refering to MDMA as a mini-tool alongside the main tool of ibogaine.

BTW these are all exploratory thoughts.

Best regards,

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
hi Lee
sorry if i did missunderstand you, but it sounded like you recommended
to drop a pill every fortnight. thanks for the links.
sure there will be no problems (except pimples and a hangover) for
nearly everybody when taking it only rarely. however i don´t find there
is much new stuff to experience or learn once you did it a few times
(same with most psychedelics) . anyway i´m not strictly anti-x.
here is a list from switzerland about purity of street xtc:
http://www.eve-rave.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3085

Am 23.09.2005 um 11:27 schrieb Lee Albert:
>
> BTW what do you consider the characteristics of a therapeutic dose to
> be? How would you describe them?
you love everything and everybody and yourself. sure i imagine too it
could be great for PTSD (postraumatic stuff) victims.

the way it changes perception of time and music is very interesting,
especially the 808 or 909 42thefloor bassdrum develops a magic that is
unmatched, you feel it right in your abdomen where your energy is
centered and it´s very warm and completely still and not moving as if
the music is a fixed sculpture.

once you realize with your heart that you only see yourself when
looking at others and that you only hear yourself when listening to
music you don´t need any X any more, but mdma can help you to get
there. opens the heart chakra.

E sometimes can leave a shallow aftertaste: you make friends or party
or have sex with strangers that you do not love without xtc or dance
euphorically to some cheap hardtrance eurodance music that you would
normally hate, and when it´s over you wake up like from a stupid dream.

when working with a psychotherapist who uses suggetive methods to
“unmask repressed material” chances are high that you unconsciously
invent fictional bad things that happend to you while you were are
child and in the long run this will make you miserable. this danger
always exists in therapy but it is much higher when hypnosis or drugs
are used.
this is not directly mdma related but psychologist prof. Elizabeth F.
Loftus did some interesting research about that phenomena, also giving
insight into the fragile way the memory works and how easily it can be
manipulated:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/

> What range do you believe they fall into and does it not depend on
> the person? Does weight have an effect? I would be interested in any
> answers you may have.

i already wrote 1-2mg/kg. of course there are individual differences in
sensibility etc, but from my experience i can say i had a better time
when dropping only one pill rather than when dropping 5 pills in one
night. i also had a better time when a few weeks had passed since the
last time of x-ing.

regards
ekki

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine on radio
Date: September 24, 2005 at 5:16:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Fun report that says nothing new, best part is Patrick’s soundbites
promoting Mexico (not Mash’s version 😉 How much did they pay you? 😉

.:vector:.

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

Two short radio segments on ibogaine are available at,

http://www.linder.com/ibogaine/

Howard

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail – PC Magazine Editors’ Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity Nick
Date: September 24, 2005 at 11:50:06 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Nick.  I had a look for Reichian therapy before and couldn’t find any in Ireland.  I’ll check out those other ones.

Luke

Hey Luke,

If you google Bio-energetics and Alexander Lowen you’ll find some good links. He and Wilhelm Reich are kind of the grandfathers of mind-body stuff.

N

ick

From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 24, 2005 at 11:47:10 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee, Ekki,
I haven’t read too much about the false memory thing but it angers me to see books like The Myth of Repression written.  I think repression is a fact of human nature.  I guess I’m very sensitive to this because I find it an insult to my own experiences when someone goes to such stong lengths to disput something that is very real.  I found I could verify much of the repressed memories that came back to me after ibogaine.  It is unfortunate that there maybe dangerous or manipulative therapists out there who may be able to implant things into the minds of vunerable people and thus making it more difficult for the genuine people and therapys to be accepted by mainstream psychology futher repressing peoples knowlege.

Luke

On 9/23/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ekki,

I appreciate the info and links. Based on what you have wrote I would have to say that the dose level I had in mind is well below the level you describe – way below what i have experienced in the past. I would call it a threashold dose where you are beginning to connect to the effects but are not quite there.

At the level I am interested in you can still connect somewhat to the bad feelings that you carry around but at the same time you can feel the warmth and the love that you can use to give yourself permission to look at these feelings.

Regarding false memory. My use of MDMA (if I were to use it) would be to work with material already known to the person based on insight gained via ibogaine or in some cases perhaps a focusing on difficult areas which have not been resolved to any particular event – I guess here it could be open to false memory. Again any new material which were to surface would need to be checked later in a follow up mini-session of ibogaine to verify it based on what you have said about the possibility of false memory.

The build up of unacknowledged shadow material via ibogaine can cause a form of emotional constipation which a very small slightly active dose of MDMA might help dislodge – as well as body work I imagine. I am refering to MDMA as a mini-tool alongside the main tool of ibogaine.

BTW these are all exploratory thoughts.

Best regards,

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
hi Lee
sorry if i did missunderstand you, but it sounded like you recommended
to drop a pill every fortnight. thanks for the links.
sure there will be no problems (except pimples and a hangover) for
nearly everybody when taking it only rarely. however i don´t find there
is much new stuff to experience or learn once you did it a few times
(same with most psychedelics) . anyway i´m not strictly anti-x.
here is a list from switzerland about purity of street xtc:
http://www.eve-rave.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3085

Am 23.09.2005 um 11:27 schrieb Lee Albert:
>
> BTW what do you consider the characteristics of a therapeutic dose to
> be? How would you describe them?
you love everything and everybody and yourself. sure i imagine too it
could be great for PTSD (postraumatic stuff) victims.

the way it changes perception of time and music is very interesting,
especially the 808 or 909 42thefloor bassdrum develops a magic that is
unmatched, you feel it right in your abdomen where your energy is
centered and it´s very warm and completely still and not moving as if
the music is a fixed sculpture.

once you realize with your heart that you only see yourself when
looking at others and that you only hear yourself when listening to
music you don´t need any X any more, but mdma can help you to get
there. opens the heart chakra.

E sometimes can leave a shallow aftertaste: you make friends or party
or have sex with strangers that you do not love without xtc or dance
euphorically to some cheap hardtrance eurodance music that you would
normally hate, and when it´s over you wake up like from a stupid dream.

when working with a psychotherapist who uses suggetive methods to
“unmask repressed material” chances are high that you unconsciously
invent fictional bad things that happend to you while you were are
child and in the long run this will make you miserable. this danger
always exists in therapy but it is much higher when hypnosis or drugs
are used.
this is not directly mdma related but psychologist prof. Elizabeth F.
Loftus did some interesting research about that phenomena, also giving
insight into the fragile way the memory works and how easily it can be
manipulated:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/

> What range do you believe they fall into and does it not depend on
> the person? Does weight have an effect? I would be interested in any
> answers you may have.

i already wrote 1-2mg/kg. of course there are individual differences in
sensibility etc, but from my experience i can say i had a better time
when dropping only one pill rather than when dropping 5 pills in one
night. i also had a better time when a few weeks had passed since the
last time of x-ing.

regards
ekki

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine on radio
Date: September 23, 2005 at 9:57:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Two short radio segments on ibogaine are available at,

http://www.linder.com/ibogaine/

Howard

From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] indications of Plan 9
Date: September 23, 2005 at 8:12:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Doctor

you are the finest,

most decent,

most  Deeply humaine man I have ever known”

;

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 23, 2005 at 3:50:41 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Luke Christoffersen [mailto:luke.christoffersen@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 September 2005 23:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity

Hi Lee,
I probably won’t try it.  If there was a therapist who did that thing here then I’d try it.

I’m generally living healthier myself most of the time but it’s the difficulties I have around socialising and just getting out there in general just make life crap.  I guess I don’t go out as much because I don’t feel at ease with myself yet.

I’m not actually sure what body work is?  I was going to try rolfing at one point.  I find just exercising in generel gets all sorts of things moving in my body. I actually find it hard to if I push myself it seems to trigger some very painfull stuff.

Luke

Hey Luke,

If you google Bio-energetics and Alexander Lowen you’ll find some good links. He and Wilhelm Reich are kind of the grandfathers of mind-body stuff.

Nick

On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Luke,

Thats all I am saying as a “possibility” to consider. “Limited” small & safe use amounts in the right context.

Maybe I should have more faith in eboga??? I am really not sure that MDMA is something that fits in with the whole eboga thing. Thats something I need to dwell upon. Maybe Nick’s suggestions regarding body work are a better way to move forward.

Personally I am moving away from smoking etc and getting more into a healthy lifestyle. So MDMA may not really be appropriate.

Normally, I would not touch anything off the street (as its mostly mixed crap, i.e., XTC) but I happened to know the guy.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee,
It sounds like it could be useful in the right context.  I have a lot of blockage in expressing feelings but I guess it needs to be used with a therapist too be effective and there doesn’t seem to be any around.  I’m not sure regular therapist would agree to an experiment with this.  Also I think there’s no way to know what’s in the street pills, there’s been some dodgy pills.  I know of some cases where pills contained a very potent hallucinogen which resulted in some very bad reactions so this could also be a problem.

Luke

On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
Hi Luke,Ekki,

MDMA should not be taken with ibogaine – I am stating that in case I gave a different impression. Ibogaine imo should be taken as neat as possible. My advice refered to:

1. Preparing for ibogaine in the months leading up.
2. Integration of material in the months after.
3. Breaking of viscous cycles of self hate and emotional deprivation.
4. Aid in facing anger and fear.

Regarding doses and effects. The kind of doses I have in mind are doses which might be described as slightly active. At this threashold level it is possible I believe to open up the emotional armour a little and explore emotions such as fear and anger and possibly release some of them. I have experienced release at this level where my body went into a kind of shaking tremor state when thinking on someone who I have a lot of anger towards but seem unable to forgive. I think the inability to process this anger is due in major part to fear as this person abused me at a very young age in a brutal way which traumatised me. The small dose of MDMA allowed me to break down some of the walls which were holding back my underlying feelings. So the tremors I had were perhaps a throwing off of fear laying the groundwork for anger release which eventually though compassion (for the stupid bastard) will lead to forgiveness I imagine. The goal of forgiveness being a kind of lamp to light the way.

Ibogaine on the other hand reveals but we are in an acute sense of self and thus may simply feel unable to face the anger/fear that emerges resulting from mini-sessions. We may get a build up of these unprocessed emotions. In mini sessions we can avoid quite a lot if we wish and have a situation where we are revealing and then all the time backing away. This is what I am concerned about. To complete the cycle of release.

The negative effects of MDMA you describe need to be put into context. These effects occur due to repeated and abusive use I imagine. There are many papers which describe the recovery time necessary after taking MDMA for the body to restore its normal serotonin function. I think 3 months. But that in the first place requires one to be using quite a bit I imagine. What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use. There are dangers to its abuse but used properly it can have positive effects.

I would also add that MDMA in the hands of an experienced ibogaine user on a healing journey is a very different thing than MDMA in the hands of a novice who considers set and setting something to worry about when having dinner and not as a way to explore oneself. Like ibogaine we need to put it into proper context.

The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

Regarding depression. I think that if one uses MDMA in large doses or repeatedly and one has a history of abuse the MDMA breaks down the defenses which have been acquired over a lifetime and subsequently the mind labors to restore defenses and this can quite possibly lead to depletion of natural endorphins and depression. In effect the anger and fear which was blocked away is now closer to the surface but the person is as yet unable to deal with the anger and fear. The healing journey can be horrendous.

Basically, you shouldn’t abuse drugs unless you are ready for the consequences. With MDMA it can quite possibly lead to very painful unmasking if overdone without proper therapeutic support.

Personally I don’t like synthetics but sometimes it may be all thats available and quite frankly God works in mysterious ways. Not every tool needs to be perfect as long as the job gets done.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.

Luke

On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 23, 2005 at 3:52:04 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 23 September 2005 16:36
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:50:45 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

It’s great you have someone you can trust to talk to and work
with. Chanting
and singing is also great, though it doesn’t quite work in the
same way as
face-to-face expressing anger. The latter is more therapy and
humanistic
than the former, and works more from the belly than the heart.
It’s more
social, and less spiritual. I think it’s good to work with body-
based
therapy if you’re looking for better social connections,
relationships, in
life. If you’re looking for spiritual things then I guess you go
with the
chanting.

Nick

Well put, Nick. However the connections made in the context of free-
form jamming (based on Pygmy music btw) and spiritually-oriented
singing are not trivial, and there is definitely individual and
group learning involved. Ritual provides a sense of safety to let
people connect afterward. Maybe I’ll get to face-to-face
expressions of anger someday as well – it sounds both thrilling and
beyond me for the moment.

Yes, you’re right. This is true. Both Bwiti and S.Daime put a lot of energy
into social connection in ritual.

Nick

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 23, 2005 at 1:18:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki,

I appreciate the info and links. Based on what you have wrote I would have to say that the dose level I had in mind is well below the level you describe – way below what i have experienced in the past. I would call it a threashold dose where you are beginning to connect to the effects but are not quite there.

At the level I am interested in you can still connect somewhat to the bad feelings that you carry around but at the same time you can feel the warmth and the love that you can use to give yourself permission to look at these feelings.

Regarding false memory. My use of MDMA (if I were to use it) would be to work with material already known to the person based on insight gained via ibogaine or in some cases perhaps a focusing on difficult areas which have not been resolved to any particular event – I guess here it could be open to false memory. Again any new material which were to surface would need to be checked later in a follow up mini-session of ibogaine to verify it based on what you have said about the possibility of false memory.

The build up of unacknowledged shadow material via ibogaine can cause a form of emotional constipation which a very small slightly active dose of MDMA might help dislodge – as well as body work I imagine. I am refering to MDMA as a mini-tool alongside the main tool of ibogaine.

BTW these are all exploratory thoughts.

Best regards,

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
hi Lee
sorry if i did missunderstand you, but it sounded like you recommended
to drop a pill every fortnight. thanks for the links.
sure there will be no problems (except pimples and a hangover) for
nearly everybody when taking it only rarely. however i don´t find there
is much new stuff to experience or learn once you did it a few times
(same with most psychedelics) . anyway i´m not strictly anti-x.
here is a list from switzerland about purity of street xtc:
http://www.eve-rave.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3085

Am 23.09.2005 um 11:27 schrieb Lee Albert:
>
> BTW what do you consider the characteristics of a therapeutic dose to
> be? How would you describe them?
you love everything and everybody and yourself. sure i imagine too it
could be great for PTSD (postraumatic stuff) victims.

the way it changes perception of time and music is very interesting,
especially the 808 or 909 42thefloor bassdrum develops a magic that is
unmatched, you feel it right in your abdomen where your energy is
centered and it´s very warm and completely still and not moving as if
the music is a fixed sculpture.

once you realize with your heart that you only see yourself when
looking at others and that you only hear yourself when listening to
music you don´t need any X any more, but mdma can help you to get
there. opens the heart chakra.

E sometimes can leave a shallow aftertaste: you make friends or party
or have sex with strangers that you do not love without xtc or dance
euphorically to some cheap hardtrance eurodance music that you would
normally hate, and when it´s over you wake up like from a stupid dream.

when working with a psychotherapist who uses suggetive methods to
“unmask repressed material” chances are high that you unconsciously
invent fictional bad things that happend to you while you were are
child and in the long run this will make you miserable. this danger
always exists in therapy but it is much higher when hypnosis or drugs
are used.
this is not directly mdma related but psychologist prof. Elizabeth F.
Loftus did some interesting research about that phenomena, also giving
insight into the fragile way the memory works and how easily it can be
manipulated:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/

> What range do you believe they fall into and does it not depend on
> the person? Does weight have an effect? I would be interested in any
> answers you may have.

i already wrote 1-2mg/kg. of course there are individual differences in
sensibility etc, but from my experience i can say i had a better time
when dropping only one pill rather than when dropping 5 pills in one
night. i also had a better time when a few weeks had passed since the
last time of x-ing.

regards
ekki

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 23, 2005 at 12:09:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/23/05 8:57:41 AM, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com writes:

Howard, after rereading this article I had an idea. Wouldn’t it be to the advantage of the government to relax the red tape forbidding DR’s to prescribe methadone for addiction in a disaster zone? I mean, you can treat the problem or deal with the sick addicts when they get tired of withdrawing. Do the clinics have any kind of a plan for disaster? My guess is not for more than a couple of days. You could give them emergency take homes but I think the limit is 5 and that is just the addicts on methadone, what about the others? I think that any DR who prescribes opiates has the moral obligation to stay abreast with how addiction affects his/her patient, and should in a perfect world help said addict when he/she becomes sick from the drugs they are taking or cannot get. Sympathetic DR’s are the only answer that I can see helping these people during any kind of disaster. I don’t think Uncle Sam ever had a jones going so I doubt that anything will ever get done, but we can hope.        Randy     PS I wonder what happened to all the opium the feds were hoarding during the 50’s and 60’s to use when the big nuke war was looming over us? The mind reels at the possibilities.

Methadone clinics are supposed to have emergency plans…..good luck.  Look at the Fed response to Katrina and to the Fed response that has left cars without gas in Texas where persons are trying to escape Rita.  These matters should be a wakeup for the Fed, State and local disaster planning agencies.  The Iranians got their research group together in days.  The Feds should have known to have gas in place for evacuees in Texas but, that is not what is happening.  I think in a disaster we are all cooked.  Particularly, the economically deprived like myself.  All I can say is that if you are opioid dependent, it would be best to have an emergency dose of ibogaine. “In case of disaster open bottle and take!”

Howard

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 23, 2005 at 11:36:06 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:50:45 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

It’s great you have someone you can trust to talk to and work
with. Chanting
and singing is also great, though it doesn’t quite work in the
same way as
face-to-face expressing anger. The latter is more therapy and
humanistic
than the former, and works more from the belly than the heart.
It’s more
social, and less spiritual. I think it’s good to work with body-
based
therapy if you’re looking for better social connections,
relationships, in
life. If you’re looking for spiritual things then I guess you go
with the
chanting.

Nick

Well put, Nick. However the connections made in the context of free-
form jamming (based on Pygmy music btw) and spiritually-oriented
singing are not trivial, and there is definitely individual and
group learning involved. Ritual provides a sense of safety to let
people connect afterward. Maybe I’ll get to face-to-face
expressions of anger someday as well – it sounds both thrilling and
beyond me for the moment.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 23, 2005 at 10:11:43 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi Lee
sorry if i did missunderstand you, but it sounded like you recommended to drop a pill every fortnight. thanks for the links.
sure there will be no problems (except pimples and a hangover) for nearly everybody when taking it only rarely. however i don´t find there is much new stuff to experience or learn once you did it a few times (same with most psychedelics) . anyway i´m not strictly anti-x.
here is a list from switzerland about purity of street xtc:
http://www.eve-rave.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3085

Am 23.09.2005 um 11:27 schrieb Lee Albert:

BTW what do you consider the characteristics of a therapeutic dose to be? How would you describe them?
you love everything and everybody and yourself. sure i imagine too it could be great for PTSD (postraumatic stuff) victims.

the way it changes perception of time and music is very interesting, especially the 808 or 909 42thefloor bassdrum develops a magic that is unmatched, you feel it right in your abdomen where your energy is centered and it´s very warm and completely still and not moving as if the music is a fixed sculpture.

once you realize with your heart that you only see yourself when looking at others and that you only hear yourself when listening to music you don´t need any X any more, but mdma can help you to get there. opens the heart chakra.

E sometimes can leave a shallow aftertaste: you make friends or party or have sex with strangers that you do not love without xtc or dance euphorically to some cheap hardtrance eurodance music that you would normally hate, and when it´s over you wake up like from a stupid dream.

when working with a psychotherapist who uses suggetive methods to “unmask repressed material” chances are high that you unconsciously invent fictional bad things that happend to you while you were are child and in the long run this will make you miserable. this danger always exists in therapy but it is much higher when hypnosis or drugs are used.
this is not directly mdma related but psychologist prof. Elizabeth F. Loftus did some interesting research about that phenomena, also giving insight into the fragile way the memory works and how easily it can be manipulated:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/

What range do you believe they fall into and does it not depend on the person? Does weight have an effect? I would be interested in any answers you may have.

i already wrote 1-2mg/kg. of course there are individual differences in sensibility etc, but from my experience i can say i had a better time when dropping only one pill rather than when dropping 5 pills in one night. i also had a better time when a few weeks had passed since the last time of x-ing.

regards
ekki

From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 23, 2005 at 9:05:59 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

An interesting related note is that to date, the biggest (regional) NA conventions in the world have been in Iran.  In the past few years NA has taken hold in Iran and, interestingly, received a lot of support from the government.  There are regional NA conventions annually in most places.  The region where I live for example stretches from Chihuahua Mexico to southern Colorado and we have attendees from both the US and Mexico and from many surrounding states at our conventions.  Our last convention attracted something like 900 people.  But the region where I live is large and not terribly populous.  California regions which tend to be smaller but more populous can have a couple thousand people at their conventions.  The World convention of NA which is held once every two years generally attracts around 20,000 attendees.  Iran which was just recently introduced to NA had a convention which attracted more than 10,000 people.  This is completely unheard of anywhere else in the world right now.  But I think this might point to a prevalence of drug use that is probably similar unparalleled.
Matt
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:45 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends

Howard, I read this and came to a couple of conclusons. One, most Americans are assholes, can you see people handing out heroin in NYC, after a disaster?……… Me either. Two, do you think our government would give a fuck enough to do a study about the effects of what happens to an addict during a disaster? Aint gonna happen. And three, am I the only one who thinks that Ibogaine could have been used here? Thank you so much for putting this out. At least someone is doing some real research on this, not that it will help anyone in the US or anything. It makes me think of all those addicts down south. I gotta do something. I put myself in their place and I don’t know what I would do. Yea I do. It aint pretty. Thank God I’m not addicted and in those shoes.       First one on the bus         Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 23, 2005 at 8:56:34 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, after rereading this article I had an idea. Wouldn’t it be to the advantage of the government to relax the red tape forbidding DR’s to prescribe methadone for addiction in a disaster zone? I mean, you can treat the problem or deal with the sick addicts when they get tired of withdrawing. Do the clinics have any kind of a plan for disaster? My guess is not for more than a couple of days. You could give them emergency take homes but I think the limit is 5 and that is just the addicts on methadone, what about the others? I think that any DR who prescribes opiates has the moral obligation to stay abreast with how addiction affects his/her patient, and should in a perfect world help said addict when he/she becomes sick from the drugs they are taking or cannot get. Sympathetic DR’s are the only answer that I can see helping these people during any kind of disaster. I don’t think Uncle Sam ever had a jones going so I doubt that anything will ever get done, but we can hope.        Randy     PS I wonder what happened to all the opium the feds were hoarding during the 50’s and 60’s to use when the big nuke war was looming over us? The mind reels at the possibilities.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Does anyone know who wrote this ibogaine experience: “Words Cannot Express”
Date: September 23, 2005 at 5:46:45 AM EDT
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

I found this experience to be quite interesting and would like to put a few questions to the person who had it. If you are reading this can you get in touch with me please?

http://www.ibeginagain.org/experiences/wordscannot.shtml

Thanks,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 23, 2005 at 5:27:43 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki,

I think you are misreading me. I suggested it as a possibility for discussion and have been putting forward some positives I can see as part of that discussion. Yet I remain to be convinced myself as it goes against the grain for me. I prefer to be clean of as much as is possible.

Regarding my own use. I did about 3 mega dose sessions about 6 years ago, 180-250mg, and have not touched it since except this one time which I found helpful. I took what was supposedly 100mg but based on my recollection of what I had before it looked like less.

If there was a place for it such as 1 small dose per annum, I doubt that would present any dangers.

In any case here are some reports for anyone who’s interested:

Previous Human Experience: Controlled Clinical Trials and Pharmacology:
http://www.maps.org/mdma/protocol/review2.pdf
Neurotoxicity Research in  Humans:
http://www.maps.org/mdma/protocol/review5.pdf
Also, a more off-beat view:
http://www.maps.org/pipermail/maps_forum/1998-October/001248.html

In fact here is a whole list of reports:
http://www.maps.org/mdma/protocol/litreview.html.

BTW what do you consider the characteristics of a therapeutic dose to be? How would you describe them? What range do you believe they fall into and does it not depend on the person? Does weight have an effect? I would be interested in any answers you may have.

All the best,

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 22.09.2005 um 13:48 schrieb Lee Albert:
> What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to
> read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use.
Lee, could you point me to a study where low-dose MDMA has been used
regularly? since you recommend it, how often did you take it yourself?


> The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose
> maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and
> while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

a dose for a full trip of MDMA is 1-2mg/kg so 100mg is already a full
trip. larger doses will not increase the xtc vibe but give you an
amphetamine-like feeling. on the other hand very low doses will give
not much effect at all. the therapeutic dose range is rather small.

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 23, 2005 at 12:14:14 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PDF files are notorious for getting corrupted via e-mail – I don’t know why……… .
The Bam assessment is incredibly rich  in detail and appetising facts. Without wanting to appear crass, this document is a really good read – tragedy aside……….. If that’s possible . Sjonny.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:24:14 EDT

In a message dated 9/22/05 9:10:12 PM, darkmattersfo@comcast.net writes:

I downloaded the .pdf file but got a message that it was damaged. I’m very interested in this, do you have a link to the site or can you repost the .pdf?

Here is the url http://www.opiateaddictionrx.info/Bamurbanhealth.pdf

Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 22, 2005 at 10:45:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, I read this and came to a couple of conclusons. One, most Americans are assholes, can you see people handing out heroin in NYC, after a disaster?……… Me either. Two, do you think our government would give a fuck enough to do a study about the effects of what happens to an addict during a disaster? Aint gonna happen. And three, am I the only one who thinks that Ibogaine could have been used here? Thank you so much for putting this out. At least someone is doing some real research on this, not that it will help anyone in the US or anything. It makes me think of all those addicts down south. I gotta do something. I put myself in their place and I don’t know what I would do. Yea I do. It aint pretty. Thank God I’m not addicted and in those shoes.       First one on the bus         Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 22, 2005 at 10:24:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/22/05 9:10:12 PM, darkmattersfo@comcast.net writes:

I downloaded the .pdf file but got a message that it was damaged. I’m very interested in this, do you have a link to the site or can you repost the .pdf?

Here is the url http://www.opiateaddictionrx.info/Bamurbanhealth.pdf

Howard

From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 22, 2005 at 9:09:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard,

I downloaded the .pdf file but got a message that it was damaged. I’m very interested in this, do you have a link to the site or can you repost the .pdf?

Thanks,

Darkmattersfo/Mark

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 22, 2005 at 8:54:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have attached an interesting journal article as a pdf file. Bam is a city in Iran were 35,000 people were killed during the earthquake.

The Impact of Bam Earthquake on Substance Users in the First 2 Weeks: A Rapid Assessment

Journal of Urban Health: Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, Vol. 82, No. 3:370-377.

Abstract (edited)

During the first 2 weeks after the earthquake, about half of drug-dependent interviewees
suffered from withdrawal symptoms. About half reported their problems to
health care providers and asked for morphine or other analgesics. Around one third
had used opium on the first day and two thirds in the course of the second day to the
end of the second week after the earthquake. Although smoking had been the most
common means of abuse before the earthquake, oral intake has become the most prevalent
route after the disaster. Almost all obtained their opium from inhabitants of other
cities as gifts.

Good reading.

Howard

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Bam indications re Katrina – opium with help from friends
Date: September 22, 2005 at 8:53:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have attached an interesting journal article as a pdf file. Bam is a city in Iran were 35,000 people were killed during the earthquake.

The Impact of Bam Earthquake on Substance Users in the First 2 Weeks: A Rapid Assessment

Journal of Urban Health: Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, Vol. 82, No. 3:370-377.

Abstract (edited)

During the first 2 weeks after the earthquake, about half of drug-dependent interviewees
suffered from withdrawal symptoms. About half reported their problems to
health care providers and asked for morphine or other analgesics. Around one third
had used opium on the first day and two thirds in the course of the second day to the
end of the second week after the earthquake. Although smoking had been the most
common means of abuse before the earthquake, oral intake has become the most prevalent
route after the disaster. Almost all obtained their opium from inhabitants of other
cities as gifts.

Good reading.

Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: mcorcoran <mcorcoran27@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: September 22, 2005 at 7:48:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I doubt you’d remember but thats one of the first things you ever told me almost two years ago now. No one could ever fault me for not seeking, its the finding part I had a little trouble with. Things are so much better now but boy does time fly.
Thanks Howard. -M.

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 9/22/05 1:34:21 PM, mcorcoran27@yahoo.com writes:

I’d like to resubscribe to the list from a different email account but I don’t remember how. Can someone remind me? Thanks.

Nothing like self-promotion.  http://www.ibogaine.org/mailinglist.html

Seek and you will find.

Howard

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT cool link.,
Date: September 22, 2005 at 7:48:13 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://drift.koert.com/   Interactive or let it run, play with the eyeball, enjoy the music and colours!
;o)

From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 22, 2005 at 6:51:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee,
I probably won’t try it.  If there was a therapist who did that thing here then I’d try it.

I’m generally living healthier myself most of the time but it’s the difficulties I have around socialising and just getting out there in general just make life crap.  I guess I don’t go out as much because I don’t feel at ease with myself yet.

I’m not actually sure what body work is?  I was going to try rolfing at one point.  I find just exercising in generel gets all sorts of things moving in my body. I actually find it hard to if I push myself it seems to trigger some very painfull stuff.

Luke

On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Luke,

Thats all I am saying as a “possibility” to consider. “Limited” small & safe use amounts in the right context.

Maybe I should have more faith in eboga??? I am really not sure that MDMA is something that fits in with the whole eboga thing. Thats something I need to dwell upon. Maybe Nick’s suggestions regarding body work are a better way to move forward.

Personally I am moving away from smoking etc and getting more into a healthy lifestyle. So MDMA may not really be appropriate.

Normally, I would not touch anything off the street (as its mostly mixed crap, i.e., XTC) but I happened to know the guy.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee,
It sounds like it could be useful in the right context.  I have a lot of blockage in expressing feelings but I guess it needs to be used with a therapist too be effective and there doesn’t seem to be any around.  I’m not sure regular therapist would agree to an experiment with this.  Also I think there’s no way to know what’s in the street pills, there’s been some dodgy pills.  I know of some cases where pills contained a very potent hallucinogen which resulted in some very bad reactions so this could also be a problem.

Luke

On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
Hi Luke,Ekki,

MDMA should not be taken with ibogaine – I am stating that in case I gave a different impression. Ibogaine imo should be taken as neat as possible. My advice refered to:

1. Preparing for ibogaine in the months leading up.
2. Integration of material in the months after.
3. Breaking of viscous cycles of self hate and emotional deprivation.
4. Aid in facing anger and fear.

Regarding doses and effects. The kind of doses I have in mind are doses which might be described as slightly active. At this threashold level it is possible I believe to open up the emotional armour a little and explore emotions such as fear and anger and possibly release some of them. I have experienced release at this level where my body went into a kind of shaking tremor state when thinking on someone who I have a lot of anger towards but seem unable to forgive. I think the inability to process this anger is due in major part to fear as this person abused me at a very young age in a brutal way which traumatised me. The small dose of MDMA allowed me to break down some of the walls which were holding back my underlying feelings. So the tremors I had were perhaps a throwing off of fear laying the groundwork for anger release which eventually though compassion (for the stupid bastard) will lead to forgiveness I imagine. The goal of forgiveness being a kind of lamp to light the way.

Ibogaine on the other hand reveals but we are in an acute sense of self and thus may simply feel unable to face the anger/fear that emerges resulting from mini-sessions. We may get a build up of these unprocessed emotions. In mini sessions we can avoid quite a lot if we wish and have a situation where we are revealing and then all the time backing away. This is what I am concerned about. To complete the cycle of release.

The negative effects of MDMA you describe need to be put into context. These effects occur due to repeated and abusive use I imagine. There are many papers which describe the recovery time necessary after taking MDMA for the body to restore its normal serotonin function. I think 3 months. But that in the first place requires one to be using quite a bit I imagine. What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use. There are dangers to its abuse but used properly it can have positive effects.

I would also add that MDMA in the hands of an experienced ibogaine user on a healing journey is a very different thing than MDMA in the hands of a novice who considers set and setting something to worry about when having dinner and not as a way to explore oneself. Like ibogaine we need to put it into proper context.

The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

Regarding depression. I think that if one uses MDMA in large doses or repeatedly and one has a history of abuse the MDMA breaks down the defenses which have been acquired over a lifetime and subsequently the mind labors to restore defenses and this can quite possibly lead to depletion of natural endorphins and depression. In effect the anger and fear which was blocked away is now closer to the surface but the person is as yet unable to deal with the anger and fear. The healing journey can be horrendous.

Basically, you shouldn’t abuse drugs unless you are ready for the consequences. With MDMA it can quite possibly lead to very painful unmasking if overdone without proper therapeutic support.

Personally I don’t like synthetics but sometimes it may be all thats available and quite frankly God works in mysterious ways. Not every tool needs to be perfect as long as the job gets done.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.

Luke

On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: September 22, 2005 at 5:04:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/22/05 1:34:21 PM, mcorcoran27@yahoo.com writes:

I’d like to resubscribe to the list from a different email account but I don’t remember how. Can someone remind me? Thanks.

Nothing like self-promotion.  http://www.ibogaine.org/mailinglist.html

Seek and you will find.

Howard

From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] alcoholism and cocaine addiction?
Date: September 22, 2005 at 4:51:54 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Kiersten
Well as a poly drug-addicted person I can honestly say I have.  I substituted heroin for alcohol when nothing else would work to help me quit drinking.  And then after being strung out for a number of years I couldn’t really get very high from the heroin so I was using a good bit of cocaine and crack.  When I used ibo the last time I had been on methadone for 4+ years and was using heroin and cocaine occasionally.  I haven’t used anything stronger than caffeine (pretty much daily) or nicotine (on three occasions) in over two years now, although I have all but decided to take ibogaine again (but that’s another story).
Matt

From: kiersten johnson [mailto:kiers10@mac.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:22 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] alcoholism and cocaine addiction?

Hi folks, 
Has anyone been effectively treated for alcoholism combined with cocaine addiction with ibogaine? If so, would someone please point me to the literature on this?
thanks,
Kiersten
On Sep 22, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Luke Christoffersen wrote:
Hi Lee,
         It sounds like it could be useful in the right context.  I have a lot of blockage in expressing feelings but I guess it needs to be used with a therapist too be effective and there doesn’t seem to be any around.  I’m not sure regular therapist would agree to an experiment with this.  Also I think there’s no way to know what’s in the street pills, there’s been some dodgy pills.  I know of some cases where pills contained a very potent hallucinogen which resulted in some very bad reactions so this could also be a problem.
 
Luke

 
On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hi Luke,Ekki,
MDMA should not be taken with ibogaine – I am stating that in case I gave a different impression. Ibogaine imo should be taken as neat as possible. My advice refered to:
 
1. Preparing for ibogaine in the months leading up.
2. Integration of material in the months after.
3. Breaking of viscous cycles of self hate and emotional deprivation.
4. Aid in facing anger and fear.
 
Regarding doses and effects. The kind of doses I have in mind are doses which might be described as slightly active. At this threashold level it is possible I believe to open up the emotional armour a little and explore emotions such as fear and anger and possibly release some of them. I have experienced release at this level where my body went into a kind of shaking tremor state when thinking on someone who I have a lot of anger towards but seem unable to forgive. I think the inability to process this anger is due in major part to fear as this person abused me at a very young age in a brutal way which traumatised me. The small dose of MDMA allowed me to break down some of the walls which were holding back my underlying feelings. So the tremors I had were perhaps a throwing off of fear laying the groundwork for anger release which eventually though compassion (for the stupid bastard) will lead to forgiveness I imagine. The goal of forgiveness being a kind of lamp to light the way.
 
Ibogaine on the other hand reveals but we are in an acute sense of self and thus may simply feel unable to face the anger/fear that emerges resulting from mini-sessions. We may get a build up of these unprocessed emotions. In mini sessions we can avoid quite a lot if we wish and have a situation where we are revealing and then all the time backing away. This is what I am concerned about. To complete the cycle of release.
 
The negative effects of MDMA you describe need to be put into context. These effects occur due to repeated and abusive use I imagine. There are many papers which describe the recovery time necessary after taking MDMA for the body to restore its normal serotonin function. I think 3 months. But that in the first place requires one to be using quite a bit I imagine. What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use. There are dangers to its abuse but used properly it can have positive effects.
 
I would also add that MDMA in the hands of an experienced ibogaine user on a healing journey is a very different thing than MDMA in the hands of a novice who considers set and setting something to worry about when having dinner and not as a way to explore oneself. Like ibogaine we need to put it into proper context.

The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.
 
Regarding depression. I think that if one uses MDMA in large doses or repeatedly and one has a history of abuse the MDMA breaks down the defenses which have been acquired over a lifetime and subsequently the mind labors to restore defenses and this can quite possibly lead to depletion of natural endorphins and depression. In effect the anger and fear which was blocked away is now closer to the surface but the person is as yet unable to deal with the anger and fear. The healing journey can be horrendous.
 
Basically, you shouldn’t abuse drugs unless you are ready for the consequences. With MDMA it can quite possibly lead to very painful unmasking if overdone without proper therapeutic support.
 
Personally I don’t like synthetics but sometimes it may be all thats available and quite frankly God works in mysterious ways. Not every tool needs to be perfect as long as the job gets done.
 
Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
                 I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.
 
Luke

 
On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>


MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
- it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
- gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
- in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
- can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki



/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 22, 2005 at 4:50:45 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 22 September 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:46:54 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Yes. Tho the mask is kind of stuck to my face 🙂

And now you’re aware of it. This is a big shift. Awareness rises
and it’s like….shit, what am i doing?! You’re on a positive
track, from
what I see. I would advise you more away from drug stuff and more
toward
bodywork – Reichian stuff or bioenergetics is very good for masks.

Good suggestions. I do a sort of primal scream thing in a musical
context, plus singing all-out for hours on end in an ayahuasca
church, and I believe these have helped – incidentally I was
thinking that these are somewhat analogous to the screaming at one
another in group that you enjoy. Also have tried breath work.
However the platform I have built over the years with my therapist
feels quite valuable, and jumping off to another mode of therapy
could be an escape. That said, I will be thinking of compatible
physical outlets based on your suggestions.

It’s great you have someone you can trust to talk to and work with. Chanting
and singing is also great, though it doesn’t quite work in the same way as
face-to-face expressing anger. The latter is more therapy and humanistic
than the former, and works more from the belly than the heart. It’s more
social, and less spiritual. I think it’s good to work with body-based
therapy if you’re looking for better social connections, relationships, in
life. If you’re looking for spiritual things then I guess you go with the
chanting.

Nick

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/]=—————————————————————
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\]=—————————————————————
——=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 22, 2005 at 4:41:42 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 22 September 2005 21:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity

Hi Luke,

Thats all I am saying as a “possibility” to consider. “Limited” small & safe use amounts in the right context.

Maybe I should have more faith in eboga??? I am really not sure that MDMA is something that fits in with the whole eboga thing. Thats something I need to dwell upon. Maybe Nick’s suggestions regarding body work are a better way to move forward.

Hi Lee,

Generally, I’ve found it’s pretty important you can love your body. I never did before, but I do now. Took a few years. The body is really your map back to your own happiness. All the “issues” we have also manifest as stuck energy in the body, so working with the body always moves things, frequently without anyone evening having to become aware of what the “issue” even was.

Nick

Personally I am moving away from smoking etc and getting more into a healthy lifestyle. So MDMA may not really be appropriate.

Normally, I would not touch anything off the street (as its mostly mixed crap, i.e., XTC) but I happened to know the guy.

Lee

From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] alcoholism and cocaine addiction?
Date: September 22, 2005 at 4:21:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi folks,
Has anyone been effectively treated for alcoholism combined with cocaine addiction with ibogaine? If so, would someone please point me to the literature on this?
thanks,
Kiersten
On Sep 22, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Luke Christoffersen wrote:

Hi Lee,
It sounds like it could be useful in the right context.  I have a lot of blockage in expressing feelings but I guess it needs to be used with a therapist too be effective and there doesn’t seem to be any around.  I’m not sure regular therapist would agree to an experiment with this.  Also I think there’s no way to know what’s in the street pills, there’s been some dodgy pills.  I know of some cases where pills contained a very potent hallucinogen which resulted in some very bad reactions so this could also be a problem.

Luke

On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hi Luke,Ekki,

MDMA should not be taken with ibogaine – I am stating that in case I gave a different impression. Ibogaine imo should be taken as neat as possible. My advice refered to:

1. Preparing for ibogaine in the months leading up.
2. Integration of material in the months after.
3. Breaking of viscous cycles of self hate and emotional deprivation.
4. Aid in facing anger and fear.

Regarding doses and effects. The kind of doses I have in mind are doses which might be described as slightly active. At this threashold level it is possible I believe to open up the emotional armour a little and explore emotions such as fear and anger and possibly release some of them. I have experienced release at this level where my body went into a kind of shaking tremor state when thinking on someone who I have a lot of anger towards but seem unable to forgive. I think the inability to process this anger is due in major part to fear as this person abused me at a very young age in a brutal way which traumatised me. The small dose of MDMA allowed me to break down some of the walls which were holding back my underlying feelings. So the tremors I had were perhaps a throwing off of fear laying the groundwork for anger release which eventually though compassion (for the stupid bastard) will lead to forgiveness I imagine. The goal of forgiveness being a kind of lamp to light the way.

Ibogaine on the other hand reveals but we are in an acute sense of self and thus may simply feel unable to face the anger/fear that emerges resulting from mini-sessions. We may get a build up of these unprocessed emotions. In mini sessions we can avoid quite a lot if we wish and have a situation where we are revealing and then all the time backing away. This is what I am concerned about. To complete the cycle of release.

The negative effects of MDMA you describe need to be put into context. These effects occur due to repeated and abusive use I imagine. There are many papers which describe the recovery time necessary after taking MDMA for the body to restore its normal serotonin function. I think 3 months. But that in the first place requires one to be using quite a bit I imagine. What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use. There are dangers to its abuse but used properly it can have positive effects.

I would also add that MDMA in the hands of an experienced ibogaine user on a healing journey is a very different thing than MDMA in the hands of a novice who considers set and setting something to worry about when having dinner and not as a way to explore oneself. Like ibogaine we need to put it into proper context.

The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

Regarding depression. I think that if one uses MDMA in large doses or repeatedly and one has a history of abuse the MDMA breaks down the defenses which have been acquired over a lifetime and subsequently the mind labors to restore defenses and this can quite possibly lead to depletion of natural endorphins and depression. In effect the anger and fear which was blocked away is now closer to the surface but the person is as yet unable to deal with the anger and fear. The healing journey can be horrendous.

Basically, you shouldn’t abuse drugs unless you are ready for the consequences. With MDMA it can quite possibly lead to very painful unmasking if overdone without proper therapeutic support.

Personally I don’t like synthetics but sometimes it may be all thats available and quite frankly God works in mysterious ways. Not every tool needs to be perfect as long as the job gets done.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.

Luke

On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 22, 2005 at 4:20:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Luke,

Thats all I am saying as a “possibility” to consider. “Limited” small & safe use amounts in the right context.

Maybe I should have more faith in eboga??? I am really not sure that MDMA is something that fits in with the whole eboga thing. Thats something I need to dwell upon. Maybe Nick’s suggestions regarding body work are a better way to move forward.

Personally I am moving away from smoking etc and getting more into a healthy lifestyle. So MDMA may not really be appropriate.

Normally, I would not touch anything off the street (as its mostly mixed crap, i.e., XTC) but I happened to know the guy.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee,
It sounds like it could be useful in the right context.  I have a lot of blockage in expressing feelings but I guess it needs to be used with a therapist too be effective and there doesn’t seem to be any around.  I’m not sure regular therapist would agree to an experiment with this.  Also I think there’s no way to know what’s in the street pills, there’s been some dodgy pills.  I know of some cases where pills contained a very potent hallucinogen which resulted in some very bad reactions so this could also be a problem.

Luke

On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Luke,Ekki,

MDMA should not be taken with ibogaine – I am stating that in case I gave a different impression. Ibogaine imo should be taken as neat as possible. My advice refered to:

1. Preparing for ibogaine in the months leading up.
2. Integration of material in the months after.
3. Breaking of viscous cycles of self hate and emotional deprivation.
4. Aid in facing anger and fear.

Regarding doses and effects. The kind of doses I have in mind are doses which might be described as slightly active. At this threashold level it is possible I believe to open up the emotional armour a little and explore emotions such as fear and anger and possibly release some of them. I have experienced release at this level where my body went into a kind of shaking tremor state when thinking on someone who I have a lot of anger towards but seem unable to forgive. I think the inability to process this anger is due in major part to fear as this person abused me at a very young age in a brutal way which traumatised me. The small dose of MDMA allowed me to break down some of the walls which were holding back my underlying feelings. So the tremors I had were perhaps a throwing off of fear laying the groundwork for anger release which eventually though compassion (for the stupid bastard) will lead to forgiveness I imagine. The goal of forgiveness being a kind of lamp to light the way.

Ibogaine on the other hand reveals but we are in an acute sense of self and thus may simply feel unable to face the anger/fear that emerges resulting from mini-sessions. We may get a build up of these unprocessed emotions. In mini sessions we can avoid quite a lot if we wish and have a situation where we are revealing and then all the time backing away. This is what I am concerned about. To complete the cycle of release.

The negative effects of MDMA you describe need to be put into context. These effects occur due to repeated and abusive use I imagine. There are many papers which describe the recovery time necessary after taking MDMA for the body to restore its normal serotonin function. I think 3 months. But that in the first place requires one to be using quite a bit I imagine. What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use. There are dangers to its abuse but used properly it can have positive effects.

I would also add that MDMA in the hands of an experienced ibogaine user on a healing journey is a very different thing than MDMA in the hands of a novice who considers set and setting something to worry about when having dinner and not as a way to explore oneself. Like ibogaine we need to put it into proper context.

The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

Regarding depression. I think that if one uses MDMA in large doses or repeatedly and one has a history of abuse the MDMA breaks down the defenses which have been acquired over a lifetime and subsequently the mind labors to restore defenses and this can quite possibly lead to depletion of natural endorphins and depression. In effect the anger and fear which was blocked away is now closer to the surface but the person is as yet unable to deal with the anger and fear. The healing journey can be horrendous.

Basically, you shouldn’t abuse drugs unless you are ready for the consequences. With MDMA it can quite possibly lead to very painful unmasking if overdone without proper therapeutic support.

Personally I don’t like synthetics but sometimes it may be all thats available and quite frankly God works in mysterious ways. Not every tool needs to be perfect as long as the job gets done.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.

Luke

On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 22, 2005 at 2:54:05 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee,
It sounds like it could be useful in the right context.  I have a lot of blockage in expressing feelings but I guess it needs to be used with a therapist too be effective and there doesn’t seem to be any around.  I’m not sure regular therapist would agree to an experiment with this.  Also I think there’s no way to know what’s in the street pills, there’s been some dodgy pills.  I know of some cases where pills contained a very potent hallucinogen which resulted in some very bad reactions so this could also be a problem.

Luke

On 9/22/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Luke,Ekki,

MDMA should not be taken with ibogaine – I am stating that in case I gave a different impression. Ibogaine imo should be taken as neat as possible. My advice refered to:

1. Preparing for ibogaine in the months leading up.
2. Integration of material in the months after.
3. Breaking of viscous cycles of self hate and emotional deprivation.
4. Aid in facing anger and fear.

Regarding doses and effects. The kind of doses I have in mind are doses which might be described as slightly active. At this threashold level it is possible I believe to open up the emotional armour a little and explore emotions such as fear and anger and possibly release some of them. I have experienced release at this level where my body went into a kind of shaking tremor state when thinking on someone who I have a lot of anger towards but seem unable to forgive. I think the inability to process this anger is due in major part to fear as this person abused me at a very young age in a brutal way which traumatised me. The small dose of MDMA allowed me to break down some of the walls which were holding back my underlying feelings. So the tremors I had were perhaps a throwing off of fear laying the groundwork for anger release which eventually though compassion (for the stupid bastard) will lead to forgiveness I imagine. The goal of forgiveness being a kind of lamp to light the way.

Ibogaine on the other hand reveals but we are in an acute sense of self and thus may simply feel unable to face the anger/fear that emerges resulting from mini-sessions. We may get a build up of these unprocessed emotions. In mini sessions we can avoid quite a lot if we wish and have a situation where we are revealing and then all the time backing away. This is what I am concerned about. To complete the cycle of release.

The negative effects of MDMA you describe need to be put into context. These effects occur due to repeated and abusive use I imagine. There are many papers which describe the recovery time necessary after taking MDMA for the body to restore its normal serotonin function. I think 3 months. But that in the first place requires one to be using quite a bit I imagine. What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use. There are dangers to its abuse but used properly it can have positive effects.

I would also add that MDMA in the hands of an experienced ibogaine user on a healing journey is a very different thing than MDMA in the hands of a novice who considers set and setting something to worry about when having dinner and not as a way to explore oneself. Like ibogaine we need to put it into proper context.

The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

Regarding depression. I think that if one uses MDMA in large doses or repeatedly and one has a history of abuse the MDMA breaks down the defenses which have been acquired over a lifetime and subsequently the mind labors to restore defenses and this can quite possibly lead to depletion of natural endorphins and depression. In effect the anger and fear which was blocked away is now closer to the surface but the person is as yet unable to deal with the anger and fear. The healing journey can be horrendous.

Basically, you shouldn’t abuse drugs unless you are ready for the consequences. With MDMA it can quite possibly lead to very painful unmasking if overdone without proper therapeutic support.

Personally I don’t like synthetics but sometimes it may be all thats available and quite frankly God works in mysterious ways. Not every tool needs to be perfect as long as the job gets done.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.

Luke

On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: September 22, 2005 at 1:38:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ibogaine-subscribe@mindvox.com

Am 22.09.2005 um 19:33 schrieb mcorcoran:

I’d like to resubscribe to the list from a different email account but I don’t remember how. Can someone remind me? Thanks.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: mcorcoran <mcorcoran27@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: September 22, 2005 at 1:33:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’d like to resubscribe to the list from a different email account but I don’t remember how. Can someone remind me? Thanks.

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 22.09.2005 um 13:48 schrieb Lee Albert:
> What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to
> read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use.
Lee, could you point me to a study where low-dose MDMA has been used
regularly? since you recommend it, how often did you take it yourself?


> The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose
> maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and
> while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

a dose for a full trip of MDMA is 1-2mg/kg so 100mg is already a full
trip. larger doses will not increase the xtc vibe but give you an
amphetamine-like feeling. on the other hand very low doses will give
not much effect at all. the therapeutic dose range is rather small.

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 22, 2005 at 12:58:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 22.09.2005 um 13:48 schrieb Lee Albert:
What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use.
Lee, could you point me to a study where low-dose MDMA has been used regularly? since you recommend it, how often did you take it yourself?


The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

a dose for a full trip of MDMA is 1-2mg/kg so 100mg is already a full trip. larger doses will not increase the xtc vibe but give you an amphetamine-like feeling. on the other hand very low doses will give not much effect at all. the therapeutic dose range is rather small.

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 22, 2005 at 11:09:43 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:17:41 -0700 ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 21.09.2005 um 06:56 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:
If you can mask pain this can be
useful. If you’re aware you’re doing this, this is even better.

Yes. Tho the mask is kind of stuck to my face 🙂

behind the mask is another mask then another mask and endless
series of masks and in the center:
nothing

just like onion peels

there is no “true” face beneath

I will settle for a face that has less scar tissue.

Thanks for the reminder though 🙂

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 22, 2005 at 11:06:29 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:46:54 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Yes. Tho the mask is kind of stuck to my face 🙂

And now you’re aware of it. This is a big shift. Awareness rises
and it’s like….shit, what am i doing?! You’re on a positive
track, from
what I see. I would advise you more away from drug stuff and more
toward
bodywork – Reichian stuff or bioenergetics is very good for masks.

Good suggestions. I do a sort of primal scream thing in a musical
context, plus singing all-out for hours on end in an ayahuasca
church, and I believe these have helped – incidentally I was
thinking that these are somewhat analogous to the screaming at one
another in group that you enjoy. Also have tried breath work.
However the platform I have built over the years with my therapist
feels quite valuable, and jumping off to another mode of therapy
could be an escape. That said, I will be thinking of compatible
physical outlets based on your suggestions.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 22, 2005 at 7:48:38 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Luke,Ekki,

MDMA should not be taken with ibogaine – I am stating that in case I gave a different impression. Ibogaine imo should be taken as neat as possible. My advice refered to:

1. Preparing for ibogaine in the months leading up.
2. Integration of material in the months after.
3. Breaking of viscous cycles of self hate and emotional deprivation.
4. Aid in facing anger and fear.

Regarding doses and effects. The kind of doses I have in mind are doses which might be described as slightly active. At this threashold level it is possible I believe to open up the emotional armour a little and explore emotions such as fear and anger and possibly release some of them. I have experienced release at this level where my body went into a kind of shaking tremor state when thinking on someone who I have a lot of anger towards but seem unable to forgive. I think the inability to process this anger is due in major part to fear as this person abused me at a very young age in a brutal way which traumatised me. The small dose of MDMA allowed me to break down some of the walls which were holding back my underlying feelings. So the tremors I had were perhaps a throwing off of fear laying the groundwork for anger release which eventually though compassion (for the stupid bastard) will lead to forgiveness I imagine. The goal of forgiveness being a kind of lamp to light the way.

Ibogaine on the other hand reveals but we are in an acute sense of self and thus may simply feel unable to face the anger/fear that emerges resulting from mini-sessions. We may get a build up of these unprocessed emotions. In mini sessions we can avoid quite a lot if we wish and have a situation where we are revealing and then all the time backing away. This is what I am concerned about. To complete the cycle of release.

The negative effects of MDMA you describe need to be put into context. These effects occur due to repeated and abusive use I imagine. There are many papers which describe the recovery time necessary after taking MDMA for the body to restore its normal serotonin function. I think 3 months. But that in the first place requires one to be using quite a bit I imagine. What I am recommending here are low levels. I think its important to read the studies before assigning so many dangers to its use. There are dangers to its abuse but used properly it can have positive effects.

I would also add that MDMA in the hands of an experienced ibogaine user on a healing journey is a very different thing than MDMA in the hands of a novice who considers set and setting something to worry about when having dinner and not as a way to explore oneself. Like ibogaine we need to put it into proper context.

The dose levels are different for everyone but I imagine a low dose maybe around 100mg but don’t quote me on that. I used street MDMA and while I think it was quite pure it probably was not 100%.

Regarding depression. I think that if one uses MDMA in large doses or repeatedly and one has a history of abuse the MDMA breaks down the defenses which have been acquired over a lifetime and subsequently the mind labors to restore defenses and this can quite possibly lead to depletion of natural endorphins and depression. In effect the anger and fear which was blocked away is now closer to the surface but the person is as yet unable to deal with the anger and fear. The healing journey can be horrendous.

Basically, you shouldn’t abuse drugs unless you are ready for the consequences. With MDMA it can quite possibly lead to very painful unmasking if overdone without proper therapeutic support.

Personally I don’t like synthetics but sometimes it may be all thats available and quite frankly God works in mysterious ways. Not every tool needs to be perfect as long as the job gets done.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee, Ekki,
I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.

Luke

On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT website
Date: September 21, 2005 at 5:37:41 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.opentopia.com/sunlightmaprect.html

From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 21, 2005 at 2:48:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee, Ekki,
I would also be interested in what the does are.   I know nothing about what dose would have what effect.  I was thinking about enought to ease defences to allow some emotional outpour as part of a theraputic context.    I tried E recreationally for a while around 10 years ago, no idea how much was in those pills though.

Luke

On 9/21/05, ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Hi Luke,
>
> I know of one therapist inEuropewho gives a full on dose which
> knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense
> of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.
>
> I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving
> ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine
> is actually giving you the insight you already need.
> If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be
> something to consider.
>
> As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody
> doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked
> there once about8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and
> suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.
>
> Which brings me to ……..
>
> Lee
>

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which
afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and
it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and
causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your
body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and
takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and
everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without
drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid-
90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and
this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely
ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move
around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience
with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a
lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the
drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you
feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for
chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i
wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being
given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe
depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 21, 2005 at 10:46:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 21 September 2005 05:57
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:12:53 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 20 September 2005 07:22
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical
antipsychotics’

Thanks for the response, Ekki.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:22:13 -0700 ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 18.09.2005 um 22:04 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

maybe your best judgement is right in telling you to forget and
you should rather go out and party and dance and meet people
but
again that is only a guess.

If I could party that would be great – but partying in my
metaphor
rather represents my self-intoxication to avoid the pain. I have
noticed quite an ability to unconsciously control brain
chemistry,
e.g. by releasing endorphins or some such to mask pain. Whatever

it
is, it is a handicap in dealing with the real world.

It could also be a useful tool for you for dealing with where
you’re at.
Personally, I think it’s a bit of a myth that we can just rip away

all
defences, face all pain/issues/fears/whatevers, and just be free.
For a lot
of people it’s a graduated process. They’re lugging around quite a

karmic
load (or however you want to see it) and, at some point they start

to want
to really take it on. It can take a while. If you can mask pain
this can be
useful. If you’re aware you’re doing this, this is even better.

Yes. Tho the mask is kind of stuck to my face 🙂

And now you’re aware of it. This is a big shift. Awareness rises and it’s
like….shit, what am i doing?! You’re on a positive track, from what I see.
I would advise you more away from drug stuff and more toward bodywork –
Reichian stuff or bioenergetics is very good for masks.

Nick

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From: “Poise Consulting” <caroline@poiseconsulting.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: September 21, 2005 at 7:27:15 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “‘Roslyn Mazzilli'” <rozmazz@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi

I know of someone in Italy. He charges about £1,000 – so prob not much
cheaper really – plus the added expense of flights etc…

I heard that there was somewhere in Canada that treated people for free.

Let me know if u want the bdetails of the Italian person…

All the best

C

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 21, 2005 at 7:26:41 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 21.09.2005 um 11:32 schrieb Lee Albert:

Hi Luke,

I know of one therapist in Europe who gives a full on dose which knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.

I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine is actually giving you the insight you already need.
If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be something to consider.

As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked there once about 8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.

Which brings me to ……..

Lee

MDMA
-empties your depots of neurotransmitters like serotonine which afterwards can cause depressions as well as lack of concentration and it can take intensity out of your life in the long run
-when you take it in short intervals it doesn´t work any more and causes a speedy feeling and confusion
– it is an amphetamin derivate and has negative side effects on your body (drains minerals, dehydration, causes bad skin and teeth) and takes away energy afterwards. it´s certainly NOT healthy!
– gives you a totally artifical bogus feeling of love for everyone and everything
– in the long run it prevents you to develop those feelings without drugs
– can become a bad habit

having said that i made very good experiences with xtc in the mid- 90ties techno rave berlin. the first time it really opend me up and this feeling stayed with me for weeks no it actually never entirely ceased but the drug itself became boring soon.

i wouldn´t recommend it in a “session” setting, it´s better to move around and hug each other. don´t take it alone but share the experience with others! it is important to be physically active and to drink a lot. that way you release the energy and emotions, you need less of the drug to get a good effect and you sweat out a lot of the poison so you feel better afterwards and don´t need long to recover. weed is good for chillout. i wouldn´t take it when having no weed around. actually i wouldn´t take xtc at all anymore.

btw there was this case in switzerland where a woman died after being given IBO+MDMA together.
personally i know people where MDMA caused psychosis, severe depression, failure at school and work, etc.

Lee, when you talk of small and big doses, what dose ranges to you mean?

ekki

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’ – MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 21, 2005 at 5:32:12 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Luke,

I know of one therapist in Europe who gives a full on dose which knocks you out to the next life but which comes with an amazing sense of ones own truth. However, thats not what I had in mind.

I think small doses to break down the armour rather than giving ‘major’ full on insights is what I had in mind assuming that ibogaine is actually giving you the insight you already need.
If that is not the case then maybe a full on MDMA session would be something to consider.

As for ongoing MDMA therapy on small doses I don’t know of anybody doing this but maybe you can go to the MAPS site. Actually I asked there once about 8 years ago and they told me it was illegal and suggested I look at ibogaine which I had never heard of.

Which brings me to ……..

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lee,
Does anybody do mdma therapy?  I thought about it myself a few times.

I found ghb also good for opening up the heart in the past.

Luke

On 9/20/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

Something which occurs to me and I would like to put it out there is this:

Ibogaine releases a lot of dark material and if we have difficulty in emotional release a lot of unacknowledged anger etc can build up. We can build up defenses to looking at the source and the nature of that anger. This in turn can create a viscous circle where normal relationships cease to function as we are blocked and put off at some level due to unacknowledged anger which we do not release and also which we are unable to forgive – this last part is vital to eventual healing imo.

This can mean that in the integration period we become blocked in moving forward (if we have difficulty with emotional release) and by being seperated from that which in fact we love at some level (because of anger), we cut ourselves off on many levels from the type of human contact we need for our well being due to projection of this anger. This then leads to self hate and an acute sense of pain.

I am not saying this is your case.

Anyway, it may be worth considering if one finds oneself in this position a guided low dose session of MDMA or if you feel up to it and are sufficiently conscious of where your blockages are, do it yourself.

Low dose MDMA can help you look at areas of anger etc and to see how destructive they are and how you need to deal with them such as in a further ibogaine session leading to eventual release and forgiveness. It also can reconnect one to the sense of love etc which helps in moving forward in ones resolution and perspective – it can take you out of a hole. This can quite possibly imo lead to a breakthrough and in subsequent days emotional release (work with an emotional therapist during this time if one is available) where before there was stagnation and pain.

Right now I am not entirely sure of the suitability of MDMA in conjunction with ibogaine. Its an idea which has only recently occured to me due to my own experiences. However there may exist some form of complementarity which can be of use and worth exploring. For example before one comes to an ibogaine session is it worth using MDMA to open up the heart a bit more?

Lee
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Does anyone have experience or theoretical considerations with
regard to taking ibogaine – or ayahuasca – when on any of atypical
antipsychotics? E.g. Quetiapine (Seroquel), Risperidone (Belivon,
Rispen, Risperdal), etc.

I’m thinking of trying an antipsychotic (at low dosage before bed)
because of the off-label use for autism. I don’t know how close to
autistic I am, but my inner pain seems overwhelming even on
ibogaine: it’s like I’ve stumbled from a cocktail party into an
operating room and the doctors are telling me to get out, go party
little ego while we keep your self alive, you would not survive
seeing what you really are, you are just a construct to cover the
damage and survive. If no doctors are there, my task is to not look
at the blood everywhere and to try not to understand what is
happening and to forget the details as soon as possible – every
time it seems like my best judgement is telling me to forget.
Logically it could be birth trauma.

It seems that very low-dose ibogaine helps a little for therapy
(touch finger to powder and lick), however it only gets me up to
assessing how powerless I am to go further. Higher doses and I’m
either like a spooked mule or working on other issues.

I don’t know if I’d want to take any ibogaine while on an
antipsychotic, but likely would want to keep taking ayahuasca.
There doesn’t seem to be a clear-cut serotonin problem, in that the
antipsychotics in question seem to work by limiting dopamine, but
I’m not sure about other aspects. Any info would be welcome.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members
Date: September 21, 2005 at 3:41:40 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oh, and great photo!!!  Your hair is bout the same length as my mop!! Heh.
And, gee, the space camp dude…. how long after did he fall over??? LOL.
Was there in spirit, will be there in dah flesh one of these years :o)
Yeehharr
Koiky krazy kiwi kchick

—–Original Message—–
From: Capt Kirk [mailto:captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 7:36 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members

Phew, thought I was going blind.  Or stupid. Or more stupid. Or had somehow
taken loads of drugs and forgotten all about it. Or something…
Phew.

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 5:52 p.m.
To: drugwar@mindvox.com; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members

oops, forgot to add the attachment last time ’round.
Silly me. Gosh darn short term memory.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members

Hi guys,
Thought I’d share a photo of a moment of good cheer and happiness,
since it’s kind of a rare thing these days for so many.
It’s a virus free attachment.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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\]=———————————————————————=[/

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

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___________________________________________________________
To help you stay safe and secure online, we’ve developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members
Date: September 21, 2005 at 3:35:48 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Phew, thought I was going blind.  Or stupid. Or more stupid. Or had somehow
taken loads of drugs and forgotten all about it. Or something…
Phew.

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 5:52 p.m.
To: drugwar@mindvox.com; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members

oops, forgot to add the attachment last time ’round.
Silly me. Gosh darn short term memory.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members

Hi guys,
Thought I’d share a photo of a moment of good cheer and happiness,
since it’s kind of a rare thing these days for so many.
It’s a virus free attachment.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 21, 2005 at 2:17:41 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 21.09.2005 um 06:56 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:
If you can mask pain
this can be
useful. If you’re aware you’re doing this, this is even better.

Yes. Tho the mask is kind of stuck to my face 🙂

behind the mask is another mask then another mask and endless series of masks and in the center:
nothing

just like onion peels

there is no “true” face beneath

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members
Date: September 21, 2005 at 1:52:22 AM EDT
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

oops, forgot to add the attachment last time ’round.
Silly me. Gosh darn short term memory.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members

Hi guys,
Thought I’d share a photo of a moment of good cheer and happiness, since it’s kind of a rare thing these days for so many.
It’s a virus free attachment.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 21, 2005 at 12:56:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:12:53 -0700 Nick Sandberg
<nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 20 September 2005 07:22
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical
antipsychotics’

Thanks for the response, Ekki.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:22:13 -0700 ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 18.09.2005 um 22:04 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

maybe your best judgement is right in telling you to forget and
you should rather go out and party and dance and meet people
but
again that is only a guess.

If I could party that would be great – but partying in my
metaphor
rather represents my self-intoxication to avoid the pain. I have
noticed quite an ability to unconsciously control brain
chemistry,
e.g. by releasing endorphins or some such to mask pain. Whatever

it
is, it is a handicap in dealing with the real world.

It could also be a useful tool for you for dealing with where
you’re at.
Personally, I think it’s a bit of a myth that we can just rip away

all
defences, face all pain/issues/fears/whatevers, and just be free.
For a lot
of people it’s a graduated process. They’re lugging around quite a

karmic
load (or however you want to see it) and, at some point they start

to want
to really take it on. It can take a while. If you can mask pain
this can be
useful. If you’re aware you’re doing this, this is even better.

Yes. Tho the mask is kind of stuck to my face 🙂

Nick

/]=————————————————————–

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——-=[/

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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’ – MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 21, 2005 at 12:54:07 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve held off on MDMA but now that you mention it that could be a
reasonable alternative.

Overall I seem to be progressing ok, just that this painful area
remains a handicap.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 05:43:25 -0700 Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi,

Something which occurs to me and I would like to put it out there
is this:

Ibogaine releases a lot of dark material and if we have difficulty

in emotional release a lot of unacknowledged anger etc can build
up. We can build up defenses to looking at the source and the
nature of that anger. This in turn can create a viscous circle
where normal relationships cease to function as we are blocked and

put off at some level due to unacknowledged anger which we do not
release and also which we are unable to forgive – this last part
is vital to eventual healing imo.

This can mean that in the integration period we become blocked in
moving forward (if we have difficulty with emotional release) and
by being seperated from that which in fact we love at some level
(because of anger), we cut ourselves off on many levels from the
type of human contact we need for our well being due to projection

of this anger. This then leads to self hate and an acute sense of
pain.

I am not saying this is your case.

Anyway, it may be worth considering if one finds oneself in this
position a guided low dose session of MDMA or if you feel up to it

and are sufficiently conscious of where your blockages are, do it
yourself.

Low dose MDMA can help you look at areas of anger etc and to see
how destructive they are and how you need to deal with them such
as in a further ibogaine session leading to eventual release and
forgiveness. It also can reconnect one to the sense of love etc
which helps in moving forward in ones resolution and perspective –

it can take you out of a hole. This can quite possibly imo lead to

a breakthrough and in subsequent days emotional release (work with

an emotional therapist during this time if one is available) where

before there was stagnation and pain.

Right now I am not entirely sure of the suitability of MDMA in
conjunction with ibogaine. Its an idea which has only recently
occured to me due to my own experiences. However there may exist
some form of complementarity which can be of use and worth
exploring. For example before one comes to an ibogaine session is
it worth using MDMA to open up the heart a bit more?

Lee

slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Does anyone have experience or theoretical considerations with
regard to taking ibogaine – or ayahuasca – when on any of atypical

antipsychotics? E.g. Quetiapine (Seroquel), Risperidone (Belivon,
Rispen, Risperdal), etc.

I’m thinking of trying an antipsychotic (at low dosage before bed)

because of the off-label use for autism. I don’t know how close to

autistic I am, but my inner pain seems overwhelming even on
ibogaine: it’s like I’ve stumbled from a cocktail party into an
operating room and the doctors are telling me to get out, go party

little ego while we keep your self alive, you would not survive
seeing what you really are, you are just a construct to cover the
damage and survive. If no doctors are there, my task is to not
look
at the blood everywhere and to try not to understand what is
happening and to forget the details as soon as possible – every
time it seems like my best judgement is telling me to forget.
Logically it could be birth trauma.

It seems that very low-dose ibogaine helps a little for therapy
(touch finger to powder and lick), however it only gets me up to
assessing how powerless I am to go further. Higher doses and I’m
either like a spooked mule or working on other issues.

I don’t know if I’d want to take any ibogaine while on an
antipsychotic, but likely would want to keep taking ayahuasca.
There doesn’t seem to be a clear-cut serotonin problem, in that
the
antipsychotics in question seem to work by limiting dopamine, but
I’m not sure about other aspects. Any info would be welcome.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine
over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing
Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.

My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list
for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] pharmaceuticals
Date: September 21, 2005 at 12:04:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.grab.com/fun/specials/licensetopill

video clip.  Hi speed connection most likely needed

Howard

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT- me with a couple 8-Bit members
Date: September 20, 2005 at 9:06:45 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi guys,
Thought I’d share a photo of a moment of good cheer and happiness, since it’s kind of a rare thing these days for so many.
It’s a virus free attachment.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’ – MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 20, 2005 at 2:11:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee,
Does anybody do mdma therapy?  I thought about it myself a few times.

I found ghb also good for opening up the heart in the past.

Luke

On 9/20/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

Something which occurs to me and I would like to put it out there is this:

Ibogaine releases a lot of dark material and if we have difficulty in emotional release a lot of unacknowledged anger etc can build up. We can build up defenses to looking at the source and the nature of that anger. This in turn can create a viscous circle where normal relationships cease to function as we are blocked and put off at some level due to unacknowledged anger which we do not release and also which we are unable to forgive – this last part is vital to eventual healing imo.

This can mean that in the integration period we become blocked in moving forward (if we have difficulty with emotional release) and by being seperated from that which in fact we love at some level (because of anger), we cut ourselves off on many levels from the type of human contact we need for our well being due to projection of this anger. This then leads to self hate and an acute sense of pain.

I am not saying this is your case.

Anyway, it may be worth considering if one finds oneself in this position a guided low dose session of MDMA or if you feel up to it and are sufficiently conscious of where your blockages are, do it yourself.

Low dose MDMA can help you look at areas of anger etc and to see how destructive they are and how you need to deal with them such as in a further ibogaine session leading to eventual release and forgiveness. It also can reconnect one to the sense of love etc which helps in moving forward in ones resolution and perspective – it can take you out of a hole. This can quite possibly imo lead to a breakthrough and in subsequent days emotional release (work with an emotional therapist during this time if one is available) where before there was stagnation and pain.

Right now I am not entirely sure of the suitability of MDMA in conjunction with ibogaine. Its an idea which has only recently occured to me due to my own experiences. However there may exist some form of complementarity which can be of use and worth exploring. For example before one comes to an ibogaine session is it worth using MDMA to open up the heart a bit more?

Lee
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Does anyone have experience or theoretical considerations with
regard to taking ibogaine – or ayahuasca – when on any of atypical
antipsychotics? E.g. Quetiapine (Seroquel), Risperidone (Belivon,
Rispen, Risperdal), etc.

I’m thinking of trying an antipsychotic (at low dosage before bed)
because of the off-label use for autism. I don’t know how close to
autistic I am, but my inner pain seems overwhelming even on
ibogaine: it’s like I’ve stumbled from a cocktail party into an
operating room and the doctors are telling me to get out, go party
little ego while we keep your self alive, you would not survive
seeing what you really are, you are just a construct to cover the
damage and survive. If no doctors are there, my task is to not look
at the blood everywhere and to try not to understand what is
happening and to forget the details as soon as possible – every
time it seems like my best judgement is telling me to forget.
Logically it could be birth trauma.

It seems that very low-dose ibogaine helps a little for therapy
(touch finger to powder and lick), however it only gets me up to
assessing how powerless I am to go further. Higher doses and I’m
either like a spooked mule or working on other issues.

I don’t know if I’d want to take any ibogaine while on an
antipsychotic, but likely would want to keep taking ayahuasca.
There doesn’t seem to be a clear-cut serotonin problem, in that the
antipsychotics in question seem to work by limiting dopamine, but
I’m not sure about other aspects. Any info would be welcome.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 20, 2005 at 12:12:53 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 20 September 2005 07:22
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’

Thanks for the response, Ekki.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:22:13 -0700 ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 18.09.2005 um 22:04 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

maybe your best judgement is right in telling you to forget and
you should rather go out and party and dance and meet people but
again that is only a guess.

If I could party that would be great – but partying in my metaphor
rather represents my self-intoxication to avoid the pain. I have
noticed quite an ability to unconsciously control brain chemistry,
e.g. by releasing endorphins or some such to mask pain. Whatever it
is, it is a handicap in dealing with the real world.

It could also be a useful tool for you for dealing with where you’re at.
Personally, I think it’s a bit of a myth that we can just rip away all
defences, face all pain/issues/fears/whatevers, and just be free. For a lot
of people it’s a graduated process. They’re lugging around quite a karmic
load (or however you want to see it) and, at some point they start to want
to really take it on. It can take a while. If you can mask pain this can be
useful. If you’re aware you’re doing this, this is even better.

Nick

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 20, 2005 at 11:17:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 20.09.2005 um 08:04 schrieb kiersten johnson:

I want to join Ekki’s ecstatic dance in Berlin!

kiersten, you are welcome!

i have to admit though that i donīt live in berlin any more and wasnīt out dancing for 2 month now :’-(

cheers ekki

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’ – MDMA Complementarity
Date: September 20, 2005 at 8:43:25 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

Something which occurs to me and I would like to put it out there is this:

Ibogaine releases a lot of dark material and if we have difficulty in emotional release a lot of unacknowledged anger etc can build up. We can build up defenses to looking at the source and the nature of that anger. This in turn can create a viscous circle where normal relationships cease to function as we are blocked and put off at some level due to unacknowledged anger which we do not release and also which we are unable to forgive – this last part is vital to eventual healing imo.

This can mean that in the integration period we become blocked in moving forward (if we have difficulty with emotional release) and by being seperated from that which in fact we love at some level (because of anger), we cut ourselves off on many levels from the type of human contact we need for our well being due to projection of this anger. This then leads to self hate and an acute sense of pain.

I am not saying this is your case.

Anyway, it may be worth considering if one finds oneself in this position a guided low dose session of MDMA or if you feel up to it and are sufficiently conscious of where your blockages are, do it yourself.

Low dose MDMA can help you look at areas of anger etc and to see how destructive they are and how you need to deal with them such as in a further ibogaine session leading to eventual release and forgiveness. It also can reconnect one to the sense of love etc which helps in moving forward in ones resolution and perspective – it can take you out of a hole. This can quite possibly imo lead to a breakthrough and in subsequent days emotional release (work with an emotional therapist during this time if one is available) where before there was stagnation and pain.

Right now I am not entirely sure of the suitability of MDMA in conjunction with ibogaine. Its an idea which has only recently occured to me due to my own experiences. However there may exist some form of complementarity which can be of use and worth exploring. For example before one comes to an ibogaine session is it worth using MDMA to open up the heart a bit more?

Lee
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Does anyone have experience or theoretical considerations with
regard to taking ibogaine – or ayahuasca – when on any of atypical
antipsychotics? E.g. Quetiapine (Seroquel), Risperidone (Belivon,
Rispen, Risperdal), etc.

I’m thinking of trying an antipsychotic (at low dosage before bed)
because of the off-label use for autism. I don’t know how close to
autistic I am, but my inner pain seems overwhelming even on
ibogaine: it’s like I’ve stumbled from a cocktail party into an
operating room and the doctors are telling me to get out, go party
little ego while we keep your self alive, you would not survive
seeing what you really are, you are just a construct to cover the
damage and survive. If no doctors are there, my task is to not look
at the blood everywhere and to try not to understand what is
happening and to forget the details as soon as possible – every
time it seems like my best judgement is telling me to forget.
Logically it could be birth trauma.

It seems that very low-dose ibogaine helps a little for therapy
(touch finger to powder and lick), however it only gets me up to
assessing how powerless I am to go further. Higher doses and I’m
either like a spooked mule or working on other issues.

I don’t know if I’d want to take any ibogaine while on an
antipsychotic, but likely would want to keep taking ayahuasca.
There doesn’t seem to be a clear-cut serotonin problem, in that the
antipsychotics in question seem to work by limiting dopamine, but
I’m not sure about other aspects. Any info would be welcome.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 20, 2005 at 2:21:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for the response, Ekki.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:22:13 -0700 ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 18.09.2005 um 22:04 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

maybe your best judgement is right in telling you to forget and
you should rather go out and party and dance and meet people but
again that is only a guess.

If I could party that would be great – but partying in my metaphor
rather represents my self-intoxication to avoid the pain. I have
noticed quite an ability to unconsciously control brain chemistry,
e.g. by releasing endorphins or some such to mask pain. Whatever it
is, it is a handicap in dealing with the real world.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

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From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 20, 2005 at 2:04:04 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I want to join Ekki’s ecstatic dance in Berlin!

On Sep 19, 2005, at 2:22 AM, ekki wrote:

Am 18.09.2005 um 22:04 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

Does anyone have experience or theoretical considerations with
regard to taking ibogaine – or ayahuasca – when on any of atypical
antipsychotics? E.g. Quetiapine (Seroquel), Risperidone (Belivon,
Rispen, Risperdal), etc.

I’m thinking of trying an antipsychotic (at low dosage before bed)
because of the off-label use for autism. I don’t know how close to
autistic I am, but my inner pain seems overwhelming even on
ibogaine: it’s like I’ve stumbled from a cocktail party into an
operating room and the doctors are telling me to get out, go party
little ego while we keep your self alive, you would not survive
seeing what you really are, you are just a construct to cover the
damage and survive. If no doctors are there, my task is to not look
at the blood everywhere and to try not to understand what is
happening and to forget the details as soon as possible – every
time it seems like my best judgement is telling me to forget.
Logically it could be birth trauma.

It seems that very low-dose ibogaine helps a little for therapy
(touch finger to powder and lick), however it only gets me up to
assessing how powerless I am to go further. Higher doses and I’m
either like a spooked mule or working on other issues.

I don’t know if I’d want to take any ibogaine while on an
antipsychotic, but likely would want to keep taking ayahuasca.
There doesn’t seem to be a clear-cut serotonin problem, in that the
antipsychotics in question seem to work by limiting dopamine, but
I’m not sure about other aspects. Any info would be welcome.

http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html#_Toc444360981
iboga influences dopaminergic systems as well and lots of other things in your brain.
noone really knows how those things work in detail.

personally i wouldn´t take any antipsychotics unless you really have to. there are lots of possible side effects and and i wouldn´t mix it with ibogaine no way but i am not the expert and that is just my opinion.

maybe your best judgement is right in telling you to forget and you should rather go out and party and dance and meet people but again that is only a guess.

good luck!
ekki

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT drugs/computers.
Date: September 20, 2005 at 1:05:35 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://flor.nl/text/softdrugs.html

___________________________________________________________
To help you stay safe and secure online, we’ve developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

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From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] diphenhydramine(benadryl) – vomiting
Date: September 19, 2005 at 2:02:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee, Charles
For me so far I think no. 1 is the case of vomiting for me.  There was always a point where something would rise up very quickly and I would vomit.  This happens in all my major sessions and in some mini sessions.  I’ve had the feeling that I never got into the full initiation effects of the full sessions because I vomited too soon.

I used motion sickness pills in the past and I’m not sure there was any difference.  I still vomited.

Luke

On 9/17/05, Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Luke,

I think there are different reasons for vomiting such as:

1. Deep down you have “suddenly” hit on something which you find emotionally upsetting or sickening. This is before it has actually come into consciousness. eg. sexual abuse, abandonment etc. and hence are taken by surprise.

2. After a certain point in a session when a certain amount of material has been covered it can act as a cleansing process as well as being an act of throwing off negative energy, i.e., spiritual cleansing.

3. Motion sickness where we move around too much and are not accustomed to ibogaine.

As far as taking a pill to stop vomiting I think that for an initial session aimed at breaking dependency it is probably a wise thing to try and keep the ibogaine in and thus anything which helps is desireable.

Personally I consider reason 1 and 3 something to be avoided if possible and reason 2 something worthwhile especially if it is some hours into the session thus ensuring that the ibogaine has been dissolved.

Unfortunately its impossible to take an anti sickness medication that avoids reason 2 unless you can take a short acting medication, 2-3 hours.

As far as affecting the material that is being released, I imagine suppressing vomiting via the use of an anti-vomiting medication does not matter that much.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Motion seems to make it worse but in my opinion the motion is loosening feelings in the body and because the body is much more sensitive under the influence of ibogaine deep feelings are being uprooted.  I think vomiting is a defence mechanism against painfull memories.

On 9/15/05, Nowwarat@aol.com < Nowwarat@aol.com> wrote:
I thought I read it was due to motion sickness.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “edward conn” <wardconn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] re: finding someone
Date: September 19, 2005 at 1:16:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would like to add something to this as I have had much experience of baby sitting someone as they move through the stages of trying to become clean while initially working with the idea of becomming clean. Its often not that someone does’nt want to get clean its often as much that they don’y have anyone who is’nt either using or is willing to talk to, listen to and work out along side them some of the issues that this might involve. All steps are initially made in the head not the body, and if someone is not willing to do that with someone and atleast give them the benefir of the doubt before thay get condemned once more for their behavior, theres little chance of getting to the starting blocks. Anyone who has had any experience with drug addiction knows this, and often those who do go back into the treatment services to offer the same point of contact that maybe initially worked for them. This is the problem with ibogaine ..it blinds people to the first steps…the crucial steps…gaining trust and walking with that person to the end. But if you don’t understand or know this you can’t offer it to others. If it was not for me doing this myself and doing it on a daily basis for many months on end, my partner would probably now be dead. I lost sleep, I lost teeth, I even lost blood, but you know what … I gained a life…and for what? For now I extend this to anyone who needs it and I extend it automatically as part of treatment….sometimes people just need to talk and talk to someone who understands and can empathise…no matter what they’r doing to themselves….after all they’re hurting someone else. But it will take a strong person to gain that trust, if your not up to it don’t do it.

Ed.

From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] re: finding someone
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:06:56 +0200 (CEST)

>Hi Dr.Tom

yes, that’s true, I do require a three pages long hand writen statement
from the person who wants to be treated for Methadone addiction, about
why would a person wants to spend 2500$ for a treatment ,
and what does a person want to change in their lifestyle and why?
what health condition they have? what do they do already do about it?
what education they have? if they can NOT show me their statement before
coming all the way to the Netherlands, I have no reason to spend my
valiuble time on bullshitting .this kind of treatment takes 10 days for
that much money, but I only do it for highly motivated people who are not
against the use of cannabis tea during treatment.

Sara

As the provider who declined to work with Andy, son of Roz, I wish her
> great success in finding a provider who is affordable and knowledgeable in
> using an Ibogaine therapy.  I facilitate this experience in situations
> where people are motivated to end their addictions or change their
> conscious emotional landscape if non-addicted.  If other issues than a
> desire to reach unaddicted health and mental peace are going on, I wish
> them the best and walk away.
>
> If parents, friends or significant others are compelling the client to
> enter Bwiti’s space the best reasons,but the client isn’t into it, I don’t
> choose to help connect it up, regardless of the fee involved.  Ibogaine is
> a transformative, possibly liberating experience when a person is
> conscious and intends to change their self destructive behavior.  This is
> what I know and appreciate as a unique tool for awareness and evolution of
> the personality.
>
> If someone hasn’t gotten to where they want to take on sobriety, where
> they haven’t  “hit bottom” and decided to get back into this sometimes
> painful and vivid soup of consensus reality, I don’t have time for
> babysitting their learning curve. Especially when they are manipulating
> everyone around them to stay “high”, or without pain. The consequences of
> stupid choices are often painful, and that’s OK with me.  The goal here is
> to become less stupid, not avoid all pain. But that is just my goal,
> people are free to come up with their own.
>
> Maybe Ibogaine would be a great coercive drug treatment, like the fear
> dust in “Batman Returns”.  You would have to ask the black ops, spook
> government shadow people who follow these lists.  But, gosh, they don’t
> always answer questions from their lab rats anymore do they?
>
> Facilitating an illegal plant medicine in the land of the least medical
> freedom in the world is an opportunity for the most entrepeneurial people
> who are among us. I hope those courageous people plan their prices and
> risks accordingly so that they can stay among us. I choose to work with
> some clients and others have some work ahead for themselves before I want
> to extend any energy to them. My call, not theirs.
>
> I would suggest a conversation with Sara in the Netherlands, but I suspect
> she requires a conscious motivation from her clients as well. Best of luck
> to all involved. Be safe.
>
> Dr. Tom
>
>
>
>
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>
>

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 19, 2005 at 5:22:13 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 18.09.2005 um 22:04 schrieb <slowone@hush.ai>:

Does anyone have experience or theoretical considerations with
regard to taking ibogaine – or ayahuasca – when on any of atypical
antipsychotics? E.g. Quetiapine (Seroquel), Risperidone (Belivon,
Rispen, Risperdal), etc.

I’m thinking of trying an antipsychotic (at low dosage before bed)
because of the off-label use for autism. I don’t know how close to
autistic I am, but my inner pain seems overwhelming even on
ibogaine: it’s like I’ve stumbled from a cocktail party into an
operating room and the doctors are telling me to get out, go party
little ego while we keep your self alive, you would not survive
seeing what you really are, you are just a construct to cover the
damage and survive. If no doctors are there, my task is to not look
at the blood everywhere and to try not to understand what is
happening and to forget the details as soon as possible – every
time it seems like my best judgement is telling me to forget.
Logically it could be birth trauma.

It seems that very low-dose ibogaine helps a little for therapy
(touch finger to powder and lick), however it only gets me up to
assessing how powerless I am to go further. Higher doses and I’m
either like a spooked mule or working on other issues.

I don’t know if I’d want to take any ibogaine while on an
antipsychotic, but likely would want to keep taking ayahuasca.
There doesn’t seem to be a clear-cut serotonin problem, in that the
antipsychotics in question seem to work by limiting dopamine, but
I’m not sure about other aspects. Any info would be welcome.

http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html#_Toc444360981
iboga influences dopaminergic systems as well and lots of other things in your brain.
noone really knows how those things work in detail.

personally i wouldn´t take any antipsychotics unless you really have to. there are lots of possible side effects and and i wouldn´t mix it with ibogaine no way but i am not the expert and that is just my opinion.

maybe your best judgement is right in telling you to forget and you should rather go out and party and dance and meet people but again that is only a guess.

good luck!
ekki

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From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] re: finding someone
Date: September 19, 2005 at 5:06:56 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Dr.Tom

yes, that’s true, I do require a three pages long hand writen statement
from the person who wants to be treated for Methadone addiction, about
why would a person wants to spend 2500$ for a treatment ,
and what does a person want to change in their lifestyle and why?
what health condition they have? what do they do already do about it?
what education they have? if they can NOT show me their statement before
coming all the way to the Netherlands, I have no reason to spend my
valiuble time on bullshitting .this kind of treatment takes 10 days for
that much money, but I only do it for highly motivated people who are not
against the use of cannabis tea during treatment.

Sara

As the provider who declined to work with Andy, son of Roz, I wish her
great success in finding a provider who is affordable and knowledgeable in
using an Ibogaine therapy.  I facilitate this experience in situations
where people are motivated to end their addictions or change their
conscious emotional landscape if non-addicted.  If other issues than a
desire to reach unaddicted health and mental peace are going on, I wish
them the best and walk away.

If parents, friends or significant others are compelling the client to
enter Bwiti’s space the best reasons,but the client isn’t into it, I don’t
choose to help connect it up, regardless of the fee involved.  Ibogaine is
a transformative, possibly liberating experience when a person is
conscious and intends to change their self destructive behavior.  This is
what I know and appreciate as a unique tool for awareness and evolution of
the personality.

If someone hasn’t gotten to where they want to take on sobriety, where
they haven’t  “hit bottom” and decided to get back into this sometimes
painful and vivid soup of consensus reality, I don’t have time for
babysitting their learning curve. Especially when they are manipulating
everyone around them to stay “high”, or without pain. The consequences of
stupid choices are often painful, and that’s OK with me.  The goal here is
to become less stupid, not avoid all pain. But that is just my goal,
people are free to come up with their own.

Maybe Ibogaine would be a great coercive drug treatment, like the fear
dust in “Batman Returns”.  You would have to ask the black ops, spook
government shadow people who follow these lists.  But, gosh, they don’t
always answer questions from their lab rats anymore do they?

Facilitating an illegal plant medicine in the land of the least medical
freedom in the world is an opportunity for the most entrepeneurial people
who are among us. I hope those courageous people plan their prices and
risks accordingly so that they can stay among us. I choose to work with
some clients and others have some work ahead for themselves before I want
to extend any energy to them. My call, not theirs.

I would suggest a conversation with Sara in the Netherlands, but I suspect
she requires a conscious motivation from her clients as well. Best of luck
to all involved. Be safe.

Dr. Tom

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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: September 19, 2005 at 2:05:31 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks sjonny.  I’ll check into the head shops around here.
Sandy

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:46:49 +0100
You need precision weighing balance scales or powder scales to do things properly – you can buy scales in head shops that are good enough or go to a medical supplies site if you want to be better equipped.   sjonny.

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:55:37 +0000

Hi.  Forgive my ignorance, but if a person had a whole gram of ibogaine HCL and wanted to measure out such small doses as 25 or 35 mgs., how is this done?
Thanks for any insights!
Sandy

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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: September 19, 2005 at 2:05:29 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks sjonny.  I’ll check into the head shops around here.
Sandy

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:46:49 +0100
You need precision weighing balance scales or powder scales to do things properly – you can buy scales in head shops that are good enough or go to a medical supplies site if you want to be better equipped.   sjonny.

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:55:37 +0000

Hi.  Forgive my ignorance, but if a person had a whole gram of ibogaine HCL and wanted to measure out such small doses as 25 or 35 mgs., how is this done?
Thanks for any insights!
Sandy

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot good site
Date: September 19, 2005 at 1:19:35 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://gneijsel.xs4all.nl/mailgein/Street%20paintings%20(THESE%20ARE%20ALL%20FLAT%20SIDEWALKS).htm
sorry bout long url.
Also, www.stumbleupon.com is a great surfing tool if you don’t really know what you are looking for..other people have been to and reviewed the sites already… it’s cool.
Kirk
From: “CHARLES” <kabel@mweb.co.za>
Subject: RE: Re: [Ibogaine] diphenhydramine(benadryl) – vomiting
Date: September 19, 2005 at 1:16:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have found that the following seems to work to prevent vomiting:

1.  I make up a pulped mixture of papaya, natural yoghurt and mango juice, in equal amounts and have my patient take at least a glass (200ml) before taking HCl.  This I keep feeding them in small sips throuhout the dosing regimen.

2.  Together with the test dose, I give two Metoclopramide tablets to prevent nausea.

3.  I split the treatment into four doses, a small test dose, a large initial dose and two lesser final doses.  These are given to the patient (if they feel up to it, otherwise I wait until they say they are ready) with at least 90 to 120 minute intervals, provided they don’t vomit it out.  This also ensures that they absorb most of the IBO before they choose to have more.

Also it leads them into the experience more gently so they get less anxious.  although difficult to assess, they are not deprived of any of the effects of the IBO, as I have found that duration and intensity of tripping are the same, given in one large dose, or split into smaller doses and given over a period of time.

Regards.

Charles
—– Original Message ——
 From: Lee Albert
 Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 11:15
 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com; 
 Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] diphenhydramine(benadryl) – vomiting
Hi Luke,

I think there are different reasons for vomiting such as:

1. Deep down you have “suddenly” hit on something which you find emotionally upsetting or sickening. This is before it has actually come into consciousness. eg. sexual abuse, abandonment etc. and hence are taken by surprise.

2. After a certain point in a session when a certain amount of material has been covered it can act as a cleansing process as well as being an act of throwing off negative energy, i.e., spiritual cleansing.

3. Motion sickness where we move around too much and are not accustomed to ibogaine.

As far as taking a pill to stop vomiting I think that for an initial session aimed at breaking dependency it is probably a wise thing to try and keep the ibogaine in and thus anything which helps is desireable.

Personally I consider reason 1 and 3 something to be avoided if possible and reason 2 something worthwhile especially if it is some hours into the session thus ensuring that the ibogaine has been dissolved.

Unfortunately its impossible to take an anti sickness medication that avoids reason 2 unless you can take a short acting medication, 2-3 hours.

As far as affecting the material that is being released, I imagine suppressing vomiting via the use of an anti-vomiting medication does not matter that much.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Motion seems to make it worse but in my opinion the motion is loosening feelings in the body and because the body is much more sensitive under the influence of ibogaine deep feelings are being uprooted.  I think vomiting is a defence mechanism against painfull memories.

On 9/15/05, Nowwarat@aol.com <Nowwarat@aol.com> wrote:
I thought I read it was due to motion sickness.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and the ‘atypical antipsychotics’
Date: September 18, 2005 at 4:04:22 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Does anyone have experience or theoretical considerations with
regard to taking ibogaine – or ayahuasca – when on any of atypical
antipsychotics? E.g. Quetiapine (Seroquel), Risperidone (Belivon,
Rispen, Risperdal), etc.

I’m thinking of trying an antipsychotic (at low dosage before bed)
because of the off-label use for autism. I don’t know how close to
autistic I am, but my inner pain seems overwhelming even on
ibogaine: it’s like I’ve stumbled from a cocktail party into an
operating room and the doctors are telling me to get out, go party
little ego while we keep your self alive, you would not survive
seeing what you really are, you are just a construct to cover the
damage and survive. If no doctors are there, my task is to not look
at the blood everywhere and to try not to understand what is
happening and to forget the details as soon as possible – every
time it seems like my best judgement is telling me to forget.
Logically it could be birth trauma.

It seems that very low-dose ibogaine helps a little for therapy
(touch finger to powder and lick), however it only gets me up to
assessing how powerless I am to go further. Higher doses and I’m
either like a spooked mule or working on other issues.

I don’t know if I’d want to take any ibogaine while on an
antipsychotic, but likely would want to keep taking ayahuasca.
There doesn’t seem to be a clear-cut serotonin problem, in that the
antipsychotics in question seem to work by limiting dopamine, but
I’m not sure about other aspects. Any info would be welcome.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] re: finding someone
Date: September 18, 2005 at 2:12:31 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <marko@mindvox.com>, <rozmazz@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As the provider who declined to work with Andy, son of Roz, I wish her
great success in finding a provider who is affordable and knowledgeable in
using an Ibogaine therapy.  I facilitate this experience in situations
where people are motivated to end their addictions or change their
conscious emotional landscape if non-addicted.  If other issues than a
desire to reach unaddicted health and mental peace are going on, I wish
them the best and walk away.

If parents, friends or significant others are compelling the client to
enter Bwiti’s space the best reasons,but the client isn’t into it, I don’t
choose to help connect it up, regardless of the fee involved.  Ibogaine is
a transformative, possibly liberating experience when a person is
conscious and intends to change their self destructive behavior.  This is
what I know and appreciate as a unique tool for awareness and evolution of
the personality.

If someone hasn’t gotten to where they want to take on sobriety, where
they haven’t  “hit bottom” and decided to get back into this sometimes
painful and vivid soup of consensus reality, I don’t have time for
babysitting their learning curve. Especially when they are manipulating
everyone around them to stay “high”, or without pain. The consequences of
stupid choices are often painful, and that’s OK with me.  The goal here is
to become less stupid, not avoid all pain. But that is just my goal,
people are free to come up with their own.

Maybe Ibogaine would be a great coercive drug treatment, like the fear
dust in “Batman Returns”.  You would have to ask the black ops, spook
government shadow people who follow these lists.  But, gosh, they don’t
always answer questions from their lab rats anymore do they?

Facilitating an illegal plant medicine in the land of the least medical
freedom in the world is an opportunity for the most entrepeneurial people
who are among us. I hope those courageous people plan their prices and
risks accordingly so that they can stay among us. I choose to work with
some clients and others have some work ahead for themselves before I want
to extend any energy to them. My call, not theirs.

I would suggest a conversation with Sara in the Netherlands, but I suspect
she requires a conscious motivation from her clients as well. Best of luck
to all involved. Be safe.

Dr. Tom

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From: “Rick Strcat” <rickstrcat@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: September 18, 2005 at 1:04:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If you were to provide some more information about your addiction – especially what you’re addicted to and the level of addiction – you’d probably get much better answers about alternatives.

From: “Roslyn Mazzilli” <rozmazz@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:57:13 -0400

How do I find a facilitator for ibogaine? I have been trying and was in contact with someone wanting to charge $2500. Is this the normal charge for someone trying to get clean and free of addiction? I am looking for someone in the San Francisco bay area or in New York. Can anyone help me out and send me in the right direction? Thanks,
Roz

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_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeź Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: September 18, 2005 at 9:39:44 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Czeck Republic, Croatia, Slovenia…

But first, you should look @
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/
http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/
http://www.ibogaine.org/

so you’ll have an idea of what you’re getting into ;-))

Marko

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Roslyn Mazzilli wrote:

Marko, where in europe should I look?
Roz

From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:36:51 -0400 (EDT)

HuH!

IBO is restricted substance in the US of A –> prices are high. $2500 for
treatment is quite cheap (considering you’re in US of A), even treatments
in Mexico are more expensive!

If you want an even cheaper treatment, find a cheap return flight to
Europe, and make arrangements in the old continent (Free World 😉
There are several people/organisations here, who know what they’re doing.

Marko

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Roslyn Mazzilli wrote:

How do I find a facilitator for ibogaine? I have been trying and was in
contact with someone wanting to charge $2500. Is this the normal charge
for
someone trying to get clean and free of addiction? I am looking for
someone
in the San Francisco bay area or in New York. Can anyone help me out and
send me in the right direction? Thanks,
Roz

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From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: September 18, 2005 at 8:46:49 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You need precision weighing balance scales or powder scales to do things properly – you can buy scales in head shops that are good enough or go to a medical supplies site if you want to be better equipped.   sjonny.

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:55:37 +0000

Hi.  Forgive my ignorance, but if a person had a whole gram of ibogaine HCL and wanted to measure out such small doses as 25 or 35 mgs., how is this done?
Thanks for any insights!
Sandy

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From: “Carlton B” <carltonb@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: September 17, 2005 at 9:13:47 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To get the mg/kg ratio that people seem to favor, just use math.  Divide the weight of the product in grams by your weight in kilograms.   A pound is 2.2 kg.  Multiply by 1,000.   So if you weigh about 176 pounds and you had 1 gram, that would to about 12.5 mg/kg.   So if you were looking for a dose of 25 mg/kg, you’d need another gram of product, or would need to lose 88 pounds.

(Note:  The latter is not a serious suggestion.   Just going on my gut feeling, but it might be dangerous to lose 88 pounds and then take a gram if ibo.)

—–Original Message—–
From: booker w [mailto:swbooker@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 2:56 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] A question

Hi.  Forgive my ignorance, but if a person had a whole gram of ibogaine HCL and wanted to measure out such small doses as 25 or 35 mgs., how is this done?
Thanks for any insights!
Sandy

/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] A question
Date: September 18, 2005 at 3:55:37 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi.  Forgive my ignorance, but if a person had a whole gram of ibogaine HCL and wanted to measure out such small doses as 25 or 35 mgs., how is this done?
Thanks for any insights!
Sandy

/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Roslyn Mazzilli” <rozmazz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: September 17, 2005 at 5:59:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko, where in europe should I look?
Roz

From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:36:51 -0400 (EDT)

HuH!

IBO is restricted substance in the US of A –> prices are high. $2500 for
treatment is quite cheap (considering you’re in US of A), even treatments
in Mexico are more expensive!

If you want an even cheaper treatment, find a cheap return flight to
Europe, and make arrangements in the old continent (Free World 😉
There are several people/organisations here, who know what they’re doing.

Marko

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Roslyn Mazzilli wrote:

> How do I find a facilitator for ibogaine? I have been trying and was in
> contact with someone wanting to charge $2500. Is this the normal charge for
> someone trying to get clean and free of addiction? I am looking for someone
> in the San Francisco bay area or in New York. Can anyone help me out and
> send me in the right direction? Thanks,
> Roz
>
>
>
>
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From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 17, 2005 at 3:11:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Schmoolyboy

“When pure HCl is taken (which should not be rough on the tummy”

It is “rough on the tummy”.

“The stomach upset is short lived and happens with most entheogens”

Wrong again (about short lived w/ ibo), it can last for days, so can the
vomiting.

“Usually it happens right before one gets off”

or gets up (move), if you lie still and don’t move there is less nausea.
Also, sometimes the ibo doesn’t hit one (hard) for a while, till one
moves, it “seems like the ibo may get locked-up/builds up (liver/portal
system?) and movement releases it. sometimes.

“A shot of 25 mgs of diphenhyramine, 1/2 -1hour pre ibo ingestion will
completely get rid of the nausea and vomiting”

You use a lot of absolutes, I disagree in your absolutes, absolutely
likely because I spend my life with doctors/medical folks that say how
things should be, and they aren’t… It depends on the response of the
patient to the medication (diphenhydramine, AKA benadry available OTC in
25mg tablets/capsules) pretty much like most medications.. On that note,
be careful of crap/generic benadryl (and any other med) , they are not
created equal either. I bought some cheap benadryl not long ago, it was
worthless even using 100mg  (4 tablets) where a good quality brand 25mg
tablet worked fine. Orally, it takes a good 50mg to be equal to 25mg
injected.

To the question about injecting ibo, don’t, it increases the toxicity of
ibo (even if some claim ibo is non-toxic…) and the chance you will kill
yourself.

BTW, Schmooly, have you dosed?

Brett

Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:

I believe that ibo will cause nausea and or vomiting via any route of
ingestion. When pure HCl is taken (which should not be rough on the tummy)
you still see the nausea. The stomach upset is short lived and happens
with most entheogens. Certainly, taking root bark is much worse and the
vomiting / sweating / peeing, is part of the cleansing experience. A shot
of 25 mgs of diphenhyramine, 1/2 -1hour pre ibo ingestion will completely
get rid of the nausea and vomiting. Ibogaine undergoes first pass
metabolism, meaning it is not in the liver and then back in the GI tract
over and over again. I believe the vomiting is CNS (central nervous
system) induced. I have seen many people vomit many hour into the ibo
experience. Usually it happens right before one gets off. The vomiting is
a metaphor- ” I’m sick to my stomach from that shit I’ve been doing”- Let
the demons be released

This is important because if you vomit you do not know if you vomited up
the dose or how much of the dose.

a toxic liver can dump many of its toxins into the bile and get rid of
them, vomiting releases
the bile contains poisons.
Iboga is not toxic, but can releas other toxins which are poison,
that’s why I advice to drink a lot of juices and mineral water, milk thistle,
before ibo. treatment,as well as coffee enema’s.

Sara

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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [NEWSROOM-L] Jeb Bush’s son arrested for public intoxication, resisting arrest
Date: September 17, 2005 at 11:26:29 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The kicker of this arrest is that Jebby (as the scion is known) apparently was being left off the hook, but drew attention to his inebriation by approaching the peace officers, maybe on behalf of his also-wasted friends.  Sounds just like something I would do!  Full moon dance tonight at COSM anyone? xo rachel

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] diphenhydramine(benadryl) – vomiting
Date: September 17, 2005 at 6:15:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Luke,

I think there are different reasons for vomiting such as:

1. Deep down you have “suddenly” hit on something which you find emotionally upsetting or sickening. This is before it has actually come into consciousness. eg. sexual abuse, abandonment etc. and hence are taken by surprise.

2. After a certain point in a session when a certain amount of material has been covered it can act as a cleansing process as well as being an act of throwing off negative energy, i.e., spiritual cleansing.

3. Motion sickness where we move around too much and are not accustomed to ibogaine.

As far as taking a pill to stop vomiting I think that for an initial session aimed at breaking dependency it is probably a wise thing to try and keep the ibogaine in and thus anything which helps is desireable.

Personally I consider reason 1 and 3 something to be avoided if possible and reason 2 something worthwhile especially if it is some hours into the session thus ensuring that the ibogaine has been dissolved.

Unfortunately its impossible to take an anti sickness medication that avoids reason 2 unless you can take a short acting medication, 2-3 hours.

As far as affecting the material that is being released, I imagine suppressing vomiting via the use of an anti-vomiting medication does not matter that much.

Lee

Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
Motion seems to make it worse but in my opinion the motion is loosening feelings in the body and because the body is much more sensitive under the influence of ibogaine deep feelings are being uprooted.  I think vomiting is a defence mechanism against painfull memories.

On 9/15/05, Nowwarat@aol.com <Nowwarat@aol.com> wrote:
I thought I read it was due to motion sickness.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [NEWSROOM-L] Jeb Bush’s son arrested for public intoxication, resisting arrest
Date: September 16, 2005 at 11:30:05 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Paul Wright” <pwright@PRISONLEGALNEWS.ORG>
To: <NEWSROOM-L@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 6:43 PM
Subject: [NEWSROOM-L] Jeb Bush’s son arrested for public intoxication, resisting arrest

All those family and conservative values seem to be for naught. Is Noel out
of rehab yet?

Paul Wright, Editor

Prison Legal News

972 Putney Rd. PMB 251

Brattleboro, VT 05301

(802) 257-1342

pwright@prisonlegalnews.org

www.prisonlegalnews.org

Seattle Office:

2400 NW 80th St. PMB 148

Seattle, WA 98117

(206) 246-1022

—–Original Message—–
From: Statesman.com [mailto:newsletters@letters.statesman.com]
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 6:02 PM
To: pwright@prisonlegalnews.org
Subject: Breaking News: Jeb Bush’s son arrested for public intoxication,
resisting arrest

<http://letters.statesman.com/W8RH0482D5499D311EE533D43DDA90> Austin
American-Statesman | statesman.com

<http://www.statesman.com/images/spacert.gif>
<http://letters.statesman.com/W8RH0482D5598D311EE533D43DDA90> Home |
<http://letters.statesman.com/W8RH0482D519BD311EE533D43DDA90> Classifieds |
<http://letters.statesman.com/W8RH0482D529AD311EE533D43DDA90> Austin360
<http://www.statesman.com/images/spacert.gif>

BREAKING NEWS
Friday, September 16, 2005

<http://letters.statesman.com/W8RH0482D5085D311EE533D43DDA90> Jeb Bush’s
son arrested for public intoxication, resisting arrest
John Ellis Bush, nephew of President Bush, picked up by TABC on corner of
Sixth Street early Friday.

<http://letters.statesman.com/W8GH0554C210CD311EE533D43DDA90>

NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc. http://www.lsoft.com

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From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 16, 2005 at 7:26:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Me, too! I met with some folks who wanted to charge around 2 grand. For that much dough it seems like I could fly to west Africa and hire the whole tribe to help out. This person seemed nice, but she was only a student (psychoanalysis or something like that) and I just didn’t feel that she was strong enough to hold me. And for the price….it seemed more like she would be using me as an experiment for her thesis because  I am not an addict and am interested in doing a session for psycho-spiritual reasons. Part of my personal  situation here is a big block of my ability to integrate and I am psychically frozen–stuck–and as a result, so broke I can barely pay attention. I am in the LA area. Any help or ideas? I have filmmaking skills and writing skills (screenwriting, fiction & academic/research) and would be willing to work together with a very strong,together urban shaman or shamanka. Please contact me off list if you have any ideas.

Cheers,

kiersten
On Sep 16, 2005, at 12:49 AM, Roslyn Mazzilli wrote:

How do I find a facilitator that does not cost thousands of dollars? I need to find someone in the San Francisco bay area or in New York. I have been in touch with people that were going to charge $2500, is this reasonable? Can’t afford so much, can anyone help me? I would appreciate some help in this.  Thanks,
rozmazz

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 04:12:27 +0100

Thanks Mark ,that’s good information , cheers buddy and best wishes………….. Sjonny.

 

From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:32:02 +0000
>I did a booster session 3 or 6 months (not sure) after my initial session because the zen like affects had worn off and I was afraid of slipping back into bad patterns.
>
>The booster session was pretty intense, but not as head cracking as the main session. The visions and insite was pretty much the same.
>
>I’m glad I did the booster session and at the same time I promised myself that I would do any other possible sessions judiciously because I don’t want to rely on a substance to get me to that happy place I went after both sessions.
>
>goodluck and bestwishes sjonny!
>
>Mark
>
>
>

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:12:09 +0000

Evenin’ all !
I thought about using Ibogaine again, I felt the need to push ahead once more,to strengthen
and refresh the new instinctual tools I acquired in my treatment  – I still have issues to iron out etc.etc. ……….- I know this appears naive and maybe pretentious in light of the recent controversy over using Ibogaine as a crutch – a druggies drug to cop and cope with all and anything, but it’s not something I would ever choose as an easy path to anywhere.
I think probably the only person I’m debating with here is myself but I’ve just begun to realise how practically therapeutic Ibogaine can be if ‘one’ arranges good cathartic aftercare and counselling.
I got so much out of this gift and now the euphoria has exhausted itself,  – the ultra-real beckons again – I may take advantage if I find the guts again………. Sjonny.

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibo movie in philly
Date: September 16, 2005 at 4:34:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: emlee_p@yahoo.com
Subject: Movie night, Wednesday, September 21  7:30PM

Ibogaine, Rite of Passage from Lunart Productions, directed by
Ben de Loenen. A 50 minute documentary exploring the possibilities of Ibogaine, a natural hallucinogenic substance used in healing ceremonies and sacrificial rites of passage in Gabon, Central Africa for centuries and discovered in the 1960’s by heroin addict Howard Lotsof to have beneficial properties as an “addiction interrupter.”

This film takes us through a Bwiti spiritual healing ceremony performed in the Village of Mitone in Gabon while simultaneously showing us the Ibogaine treatment of Cy, a San Franciscan heroin and speed addict seeking to break his addiction cycle without withdrawal symptoms and succeeding.

The film also interviews Lotsof, now the owner of a small pharma company, and others about the illegality of Ibogaine in the United States (why it is and remains illegal) and how addicts without monetary means are left aside while more privileged addicts can travel to Mexico and other destinations for Ibogaine treatments. A Bwiti Spiritual doctor also explains to us where Iboga comes from and beliefs surrounding its discovery.

One or two members of The Ibogaine Project in New York City may be in attendance. Printed info will be passed along regardless.

The A-Space
most events begin at 7:30
4722 Baltimore Ave, W. Philly
215-727-0882 leave msg
A-space@defenestrator.org
eventlist: a-space-subscribe@lists.riseup.net
http://defenestrator.org/aspace/

plenty of parking for bikes & cars
south side of Baltimore ave between 47th & 48th
on septa #34 green line surface trolley
most events free/we survive on donation
collective meets 3rd Sundays 11AM/new ideas welcome

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From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] diphenhydramine(benadryl)
Date: September 16, 2005 at 2:49:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Motion seems to make it worse but in my opinion the motion is loosening feelings in the body and because the body is much more sensitive under the influence of ibogaine deep feelings are being uprooted.  I think vomiting is a defence mechanism against painfull memories.

On 9/15/05, Nowwarat@aol.com <Nowwarat@aol.com> wrote:
I thought I read it was due to motion sickness.

From: “edward conn” <wardconn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 16, 2005 at 1:56:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If its any help to anyone to know, I find that now my brain will create mini ibogaine sessions itself, that will effectively be the result of working over prolonged periods of time and my brain through out that has not had the ability to file all that information away. I can feel it build up over a period of months adn then I will find my mood gradually changing and I start to fel uncomfortable or trapped. Eventually this will break and I will have what is exactly like an ibogaine session except smaller. I can feel my brain working and aldo the movement from right to left side of my brain through visual imagery. Now as out rageous as this might sound if you think about what ibogaine is doing, it is inducing a natural brain function. The need to integrate and include, similar to sleep  – thus the similar brain patterns to sleep patterns.  Only just two weeks ago I had one of these and it was the largest yet. I settled up on the sofa and lay with it through the night and fo,llowing morning. It was the longest yet and most definitively similar. Likewise the following days it took me a while to acclimitise and I had sunsequent insights and ‘impressions’ leave me. Usually this whole episode is prestated by an increase in anger and tension levels and then the explossion seems to shift me into the arousal and integrative state. as of the ibo.

Very interresting to watch and goes to show me more of the affinity that the ibogaine molecule has to create the arousal of natural and healthy brain functioning. Its what is refrred to as Gnosis and funnily enough drugs aswell as anger and sex etc etc can induce such trances. But whatever works for you is what is important, noting also that the more attuned to our natural state we become the less inebriants we need. But every once in a while we do, as I like a drink, I don’t binge to get out of it but I can swallow a few and enjoy it aswell as get something out of it. And again its sporadic and generally related to my mood/ patterns of change.

Tye whole sense of renewal afterward is because we feel more in touch with ourselves. The brain is constantly picking up and storing sensory material aswell as unconscious material, it has to integrate this and as a result we learn from it and grow, accumulated experience becomes knowledge. As the world accelerates we need more efficient ways of integrating as intelligence increases so ibogaine it would seem is part of that appropriate piece at an appropriate time. Similarly there is an increase in mind related technologies etc. in the same way that we have seen with nutrition in the last ten years. The internet has just taken off, we’re in the age of the brain…happy thoughts…

Ed.

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 04:28:26 +0100

we are all magicans cause we can change our reality right now if we change our beliefs like the days after ibo….and even though ibo gives u that glow and that extra push in the end it is u and ur beliefs that make u act and think the way u do…….. but of course its easeir said than done……..<

So simply put and so fucking profound – !!! ………………. Sjonny.

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:31:53 -0400

I know what u mean

Days after ibogaine i swore to my self and everybody i will never touch any chemical…the first days weeks i couldnt even think about heroin much less do it…….even the smoke of cigarates disgusted me and i couldnt be near anybody that smoked…..I remember i didnt sleep fuk all for over 13 days after ibo and even though i had fllurazepam clonezapam and synthetic thc pills i still wouldnt do it not because i was stuburn but i just couldnt do them…..i couldnt put anything shity in my body…..and the glow omg that was bliss……

and then as the days turned to weeks and the weeks into months everthing began to dissipate and my old behaviour returned……mostly because i associated my self with poeople that were still using and not doing anything creative/productive that i knew i must

that just reaffirms my statement that we create our reality with our beliefs…….we are all magicans cause we can change our reality right now if we change our beliefs like the days after ibo….and even though ibo gives u that glow and that extra push in the end it is u and ur beliefs that make u act and think the way u do…….. but ofcourse its easeir said than done……..

ahh i start to think its all pointless again……

but sjonngy if u can and have access to ibogaine and u feel ur old behaviour returning DO IT ASAP!!……and i personally would do more than a booster but depends on how ur cravings are and where u are in life in general

love

matt

yap…the ibo gave me the strengh to suffer through it

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*

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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 16, 2005 at 9:06:14 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There is no line of puke so to speak.  When I did the biggest dose I ever took (25 or so mg/kg, I forget exactly) I wasn’t nauseous but once on a lower dose (around 14 mg/kg) I did vomit.  Nausea (like other feelings and sensations) doesn’t suffer itself to be scientifically scrutinized.
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:24 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine

Thanx Howard. I guess I want somebody to tell me that there is a test we can run to find out approximately how much Ibogaine is the vomit. Some kind of litmus test would be nice. I wonder how much that would cost to develop? Anyway, this just leads me to believe that having someone experienced at these things is crucial during a treatment. Who knows what will come up so to speak. LOL            “Help, I’ve slipped in the vomit and hurt my back”     Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 16, 2005 at 6:24:04 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanx Howard. I guess I want somebody to tell me that there is a test we can run to find out approximately how much Ibogaine is the vomit. Some kind of litmus test would be nice. I wonder how much that would cost to develop? Anyway, this just leads me to believe that having someone experienced at these things is crucial during a treatment. Who knows what will come up so to speak. LOL            “Help, I’ve slipped in the vomit and hurt my back”     Randy

From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: September 16, 2005 at 3:36:51 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HuH!

IBO is restricted substance in the US of A –> prices are high. $2500 for
treatment is quite cheap (considering you’re in US of A), even treatments
in Mexico are more expensive!

If you want an even cheaper treatment, find a cheap return flight to
Europe, and make arrangements in the old continent (Free World 😉
There are several people/organisations here, who know what they’re doing.

Marko

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Roslyn Mazzilli wrote:

How do I find a facilitator for ibogaine? I have been trying and was in
contact with someone wanting to charge $2500. Is this the normal charge for
someone trying to get clean and free of addiction? I am looking for someone
in the San Francisco bay area or in New York. Can anyone help me out and
send me in the right direction? Thanks,
Roz

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From: “Roslyn Mazzilli” <rozmazz@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] finding someone
Date: September 16, 2005 at 3:57:13 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How do I find a facilitator for ibogaine? I have been trying and was in contact with someone wanting to charge $2500. Is this the normal charge for someone trying to get clean and free of addiction? I am looking for someone in the San Francisco bay area or in New York. Can anyone help me out and send me in the right direction? Thanks,
Roz

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From: “Roslyn Mazzilli” <rozmazz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 16, 2005 at 3:49:46 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How do I find a facilitator that does not cost thousands of dollars? I need to find someone in the San Francisco bay area or in New York. I have been in touch with people that were going to charge $2500, is this reasonable? Can’t afford so much, can anyone help me? I would appreciate some help in this.  Thanks,
rozmazz

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 04:12:27 +0100

Thanks Mark ,that’s good information , cheers buddy and best wishes………….. Sjonny.

 

From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:32:02 +0000
>I did a booster session 3 or 6 months (not sure) after my initial session because the zen like affects had worn off and I was afraid of slipping back into bad patterns.
>
>The booster session was pretty intense, but not as head cracking as the main session. The visions and insite was pretty much the same.
>
>I’m glad I did the booster session and at the same time I promised myself that I would do any other possible sessions judiciously because I don’t want to rely on a substance to get me to that happy place I went after both sessions.
>
>goodluck and bestwishes sjonny!
>
>Mark
>
>
>

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:12:09 +0000

Evenin’ all !
I thought about using Ibogaine again, I felt the need to push ahead once more,to strengthen
and refresh the new instinctual tools I acquired in my treatment  – I still have issues to iron out etc.etc. ……….- I know this appears naive and maybe pretentious in light of the recent controversy over using Ibogaine as a crutch – a druggies drug to cop and cope with all and anything, but it’s not something I would ever choose as an easy path to anywhere.
I think probably the only person I’m debating with here is myself but I’ve just begun to realise how practically therapeutic Ibogaine can be if ‘one’ arranges good cathartic aftercare and counselling.
I got so much out of this gift and now the euphoria has exhausted itself,  – the ultra-real beckons again – I may take advantage if I find the guts again………. Sjonny.

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From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 15, 2005 at 11:28:26 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

we are all magicans cause we can change our reality right now if we change our beliefs like the days after ibo….and even though ibo gives u that glow and that extra push in the end it is u and ur beliefs that make u act and think the way u do…….. but of course its easeir said than done……..<

So simply put and so fucking profound – !!! ………………. Sjonny.

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:31:53 -0400

I know what u mean

Days after ibogaine i swore to my self and everybody i will never touch any chemical…the first days weeks i couldnt even think about heroin much less do it…….even the smoke of cigarates disgusted me and i couldnt be near anybody that smoked…..I remember i didnt sleep fuk all for over 13 days after ibo and even though i had fllurazepam clonezapam and synthetic thc pills i still wouldnt do it not because i was stuburn but i just couldnt do them…..i couldnt put anything shity in my body…..and the glow omg that was bliss……

and then as the days turned to weeks and the weeks into months everthing began to dissipate and my old behaviour returned……mostly because i associated my self with poeople that were still using and not doing anything creative/productive that i knew i must

that just reaffirms my statement that we create our reality with our beliefs…….we are all magicans cause we can change our reality right now if we change our beliefs like the days after ibo….and even though ibo gives u that glow and that extra push in the end it is u and ur beliefs that make u act and think the way u do…….. but ofcourse its easeir said than done……..

ahh i start to think its all pointless again……

but sjonngy if u can and have access to ibogaine and u feel ur old behaviour returning DO IT ASAP!!……and i personally would do more than a booster but depends on how ur cravings are and where u are in life in general

love

matt

yap…the ibo gave me the strengh to suffer through it

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 11:23:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/15/05 8:49:36 AM, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com writes:

In a message dated 9/15/2005 7:39:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Schmoolyboy@aol.com writes:

This is important because if you vomit you do not know if you vomited up the dose or how much of the dose

Ok, so how do you accertain how much was lost when you throw up? Just wondering.       Randy

While not exact you can examine what was thrown up.  If there are undissolved capsules it is easy.  Partially dissolved capsules harder.  No capsules, more problems.  So you also have to consider time.  Two and a half hours out it probably makes no difference if the patient throws up.  Thirty minutes… give him back the capsules and suggest he try again.  Between the two points…..your guess.

Howard

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 15, 2005 at 11:12:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Mark ,that’s good information , cheers buddy and best wishes………….. Sjonny.
From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:32:02 +0000
>I did a booster session 3 or 6 months (not sure) after my initial session because the zen like affects had worn off and I was afraid of slipping back into bad patterns.
>
>The booster session was pretty intense, but not as head cracking as the main session. The visions and insite was pretty much the same.
>
>I’m glad I did the booster session and at the same time I promised myself that I would do any other possible sessions judiciously because I don’t want to rely on a substance to get me to that happy place I went after both sessions.
>
>goodluck and bestwishes sjonny!
>
>Mark
>
>
>

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:12:09 +0000

Evenin’ all !
I thought about using Ibogaine again, I felt the need to push ahead once more,to strengthen
and refresh the new instinctual tools I acquired in my treatment  – I still have issues to iron out etc.etc. ……….- I know this appears naive and maybe pretentious in light of the recent controversy over using Ibogaine as a crutch – a druggies drug to cop and cope with all and anything, but it’s not something I would ever choose as an easy path to anywhere.
I think probably the only person I’m debating with here is myself but I’ve just begun to realise how practically therapeutic Ibogaine can be if ‘one’ arranges good cathartic aftercare and counselling.
I got so much out of this gift and now the euphoria has exhausted itself,  – the ultra-real beckons again – I may take advantage if I find the guts again………. Sjonny.

/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 5:07:17 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Heh,I could count the capsules in the puke bowl lol
Mind u that was the shit Ibogaine and I was trying to eat 130 odd capsules!!!  Ugh.
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2005 12:49 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine

In a message dated 9/15/2005 7:39:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Schmoolyboy@aol.com writes:
This is important because if you vomit you do not know if you vomited up the dose or how much of the dose
Ok, so how do you accertain how much was lost when you throw up? Just wondering.       Randy

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT—THE WHOLE OF CREATION IS ONE BEING OF EQUALS
Date: September 15, 2005 at 4:38:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Cosmic Cookie

Soul of the Ages I Am
open the Channels of my Mind
and inform the Masters of the Universe
that I am on my way.
Remind them with Kindness and Gladness of Heart
that I am their Servant and their Equal.

Shower my Guides and Teachers
with Love and Kindness
and tell them to rejoice in the Knowledge
that we are… the Creator in Manifestation.

THE WHOLE OF CREATION IS ONE BEING OF EQUALS

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 15, 2005 at 4:31:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I know what u mean
Days after ibogaine i swore to my self and everybody i will never touch any chemical…the first days weeks i couldnt even think about heroin much less do it…….even the smoke of cigarates disgusted me and i couldnt be near anybody that smoked…..I remember i didnt sleep fuk all for over 13 days after ibo and even though i had fllurazepam clonezapam and synthetic thc pills i still wouldnt do it not because i was stuburn but i just couldnt do them…..i couldnt put anything shity in my body…..and the glow omg that was bliss……
and then as the days turned to weeks and the weeks into months everthing began to dissipate and my old behaviour returned……mostly because i associated my self with poeople that were still using and not doing anything creative/productive that i knew i must
that just reaffirms my statement that we create our reality with our beliefs…….we are all magicans cause we can change our reality right now if we change our beliefs like the days after ibo….and even though ibo gives u that glow and that extra push in the end it is u and ur beliefs that make u act and think the way u do…….. but ofcourse its easeir said than done……..
ahh i start to think its all pointless again……
but sjonngy if u can and have access to ibogaine and u feel ur old behaviour returning DO IT ASAP!!……and i personally would do more than a booster but depends on how ur cravings are and where u are in life in general
love
matt
yap…the ibo gave me the strengh to suffer through it

 

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] diphenhydramine(benadryl)
Date: September 15, 2005 at 3:50:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I thought I read it was due to motion sickness.

From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 15, 2005 at 3:32:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I did a booster session 3 or 6 months (not sure) after my initial session because the zen like affects had worn off and I was afraid of slipping back into bad patterns.

The booster session was pretty intense, but not as head cracking as the main session.  The visions and insite was pretty much the same.

I’m glad I did the booster session and at the same time I promised myself that I would do any other possible sessions judiciously because I don’t want to rely on a substance to get me to that happy place I went after both sessions.

goodluck and bestwishes sjonny!

Mark

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 15, 2005 at 3:12:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Evenin’ all !
I thought about using Ibogaine again, I felt the need to push ahead once more,to strengthen
and refresh the new instinctual tools I acquired in my treatment  – I still have issues to iron out etc.etc. ……….- I know this appears naive and maybe pretentious in light of the recent controversy over using Ibogaine as a crutch – a druggies drug to cop and cope with all and anything, but it’s not something I would ever choose as an easy path to anywhere.
I think probably the only person I’m debating with here is myself but I’ve just begun to realise how practically therapeutic Ibogaine can be if ‘one’ arranges good cathartic aftercare and counselling.
I got so much out of this gift and now the euphoria has exhausted itself,  – the ultra-real beckons again – I may take advantage if I find the guts again………. Sjonny.

/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Self Abuse
Date: September 15, 2005 at 3:11:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Evenin’ all !
I thought about using Ibogaine again, I felt the need to push ahead once more,to strengthen
and refresh the new instinctual tools I acquired in my treatment  – I still have issues to iron out etc.etc. ……….- I know this appears naive and maybe pretentious in light of the recent controversy over using Ibogaine as a crutch – a druggies drug to cop and cope with all and anything, but it’s not something I would ever choose as an easy path to anywhere.
I think probably the only person I’m debating with here is myself but I’ve just begun to realise how practically therapeutic Ibogaine can be if ‘one’ arranges good cathartic aftercare and counselling.
I got so much out of this gift and now the euphoria has exhausted itself,  – the ultra-real beckons again – I may take advantage if I find the guts again………. Sjonny.

/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] diphenhydramine(benadryl)
Date: September 15, 2005 at 1:50:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi All

Does anyone know if using diphenhydramine(benadryl) to prevent nausea has any effect on the success of an ibogaine session?  I am of the impression that nausea is caused by traumatic material rising to consiousness and am curious to know if the mechanisms by which this drug prevents nausea may prevent some of the healing mechanisms of ibogaine or if the effects are just the same.

Thanks
Luke

“A shot of 25 mgs of diphenhyramine, 1/2 -1hour pre ibo ingestion will completely get rid of the nausea and vomiting”

You use a lot of absolutes, I disagree in your absolutes, absolutely likely because I spend my life with doctors/medical folks that say how  things should be, and they aren’t… It depends on the response of the patient to the medication (diphenhydramine, AKA benadry available OTC in 25mg tablets/capsules) pretty much like most medications.. On that note, be careful of crap/generic benadryl (and any other med) , they are not created equal either. I bought some cheap benadryl not long ago, it was worthless even using 100mg  (4 tablets) where a good quality brand 25mg tablet worked fine. Orally, it takes a good 50mg to be equal to 25mg injected.

To the question about injecting ibo, don’t, it increases the toxicity of ibo (even if some claim ibo is non-toxic…) and the chance you will kill yourself.

BTW, Schmooly, have you dosed?

Brett
Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:

I believe that ibo will cause nausea and or vomiting via any route of ingestion. When pure HCl is taken (which should not be rough on the tummy) you still see the nausea. The stomach upset is short lived and happens with most entheogens. Certainly, taking root bark is much worse and the vomiting / sweating / peeing, is part of the cleansing experience. A shot of 25 mgs of diphenhyramine, 1/2 -1hour pre ibo ingestion will completely get rid of the nausea and vomiting. Ibogaine undergoes first pass metabolism, meaning it is not in the liver and then back in the GI tract over and over again. I believe the vomiting is CNS (central nervous system) induced. I have seen many people vomit many hour into the ibo experience. Usually it happens right before one gets off. The vomiting is a metaphor- ” I’m sick to my stomach from that shit I’ve been doing”- Let the demons be released

This is important because if you vomit you do not know if you vomited up the dose or how much of the dose.

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 12:07:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Schmoolyboy

“When pure HCl is taken (which should not be rough on the tummy”

It is “rough on the tummy”.

“The stomach upset is short lived and happens with most entheogens”

Wrong again (about short lived w/ ibo), it can last for days, so can the vomiting.

“Usually it happens right before one gets off”

or gets up (move), if you lie still and don’t move there is less nausea. Also, sometimes the ibo doesn’t hit one (hard) for a while, till one moves, it “seems like the ibo may get locked-up/builds up (liver/portal system?) and movement releases it. sometimes.

“A shot of 25 mgs of diphenhyramine, 1/2 -1hour pre ibo ingestion will completely get rid of the nausea and vomiting”

You use a lot of absolutes, I disagree in your absolutes, absolutely likely because I spend my life with doctors/medical folks that say how  things should be, and they aren’t… It depends on the response of the patient to the medication (diphenhydramine, AKA benadry available OTC in 25mg tablets/capsules) pretty much like most medications.. On that note, be careful of crap/generic benadryl (and any other med) , they are not created equal either. I bought some cheap benadryl not long ago, it was worthless even using 100mg  (4 tablets) where a good quality brand 25mg tablet worked fine. Orally, it takes a good 50mg to be equal to 25mg injected.

To the question about injecting ibo, don’t, it increases the toxicity of ibo (even if some claim ibo is non-toxic…) and the chance you will kill yourself.

BTW, Schmooly, have you dosed?

Brett
Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:

I believe that ibo will cause nausea and or vomiting via any route of ingestion. When pure HCl is taken (which should not be rough on the tummy) you still see the nausea. The stomach upset is short lived and happens with most entheogens. Certainly, taking root bark is much worse and the vomiting / sweating / peeing, is part of the cleansing experience. A shot of 25 mgs of diphenhyramine, 1/2 -1hour pre ibo ingestion will completely get rid of the nausea and vomiting. Ibogaine undergoes first pass metabolism, meaning it is not in the liver and then back in the GI tract over and over again. I believe the vomiting is CNS (central nervous system) induced. I have seen many people vomit many hour into the ibo experience. Usually it happens right before one gets off. The vomiting is a metaphor- ” I’m sick to my stomach from that shit I’ve been doing”- Let the demons be released

This is important because if you vomit you do not know if you vomited up the dose or how much of the dose.

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 8:48:40 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/15/2005 7:39:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Schmoolyboy@aol.com writes:
This is important because if you vomit you do not know if you vomited up the dose or how much of the dose
Ok, so how do you accertain how much was lost when you throw up? Just wondering.       Randy

From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 7:37:54 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I believe that ibo will cause nausea and or vomiting via any route of ingestion. When pure HCl is taken (which should not be rough on the tummy) you still see the nausea. The stomach upset is short lived and happens with most entheogens. Certainly, taking root bark is much worse and the vomiting / sweating / peeing, is part of the cleansing experience. A shot of 25 mgs of diphenhyramine, 1/2 -1hour pre ibo ingestion will completely get rid of the nausea and vomiting. Ibogaine undergoes first pass metabolism, meaning it is not in the liver and then back in the GI tract over and over again. I believe the vomiting is CNS (central nervous system) induced. I have seen many people vomit many hour into the ibo experience. Usually it happens right before one gets off. The vomiting is a metaphor- ” I’m sick to my stomach from that shit I’ve been doing”- Let the demons be released

This is important because if you vomit you do not know if you vomited up the dose or how much of the dose.

From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 5:50:53 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

there still be a stomach problem but you will not vomit the ibo.

no there is no real reason for or benefit in injecting it. it´an
entirely stupid idea!
i didn´t want to start a threat about needles but i was surprised about
the low solubility and didn´t find any data about it and so out of pure
curiousity i asked.

when one manages to inject a few mgs more at once then one feels it in
the circulation and has to lie down before feeling any psychedelic
effect. it seems to me that ibogaine needs a few minutes in the brain
to unfold.

when you don´t take it orally but use like an enema there will be no
stomach problems i believe.

-ekki

Am 15.09.2005 um 08:13 schrieb Krista Vaughan:

Besides just wanting to stick it in a needle and inject it, is there
any real reason to shoot up ibogaine? Does it have any benefit that
taking it orally doesn’t?

KV

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 4:38:20 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

no there is no real reason for or benefit in injecting it. it´an entirely stupid idea!
i didn´t want to start a threat about needles but i was surprised about the low solubility and didn´t find any data about it and so out of pure curiousity i asked.

when one manages to inject a few mgs more at once then one feels it in the circulation and has to lie down before feeling any psychedelic effect. it seems to me that ibogaine needs a few minutes in the brain to unfold.

when you don´t take it orally but use like an enema there will be no stomach problems i believe.

-ekki

Am 15.09.2005 um 08:13 schrieb Krista Vaughan:

Besides just wanting to stick it in a needle and inject it, is there
any real reason to shoot up ibogaine? Does it have any benefit that
taking it orally doesn’t?

KV

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From: Krista Vaughan <krista.vaughan@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] injecting ibogaine
Date: September 15, 2005 at 2:13:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Besides just wanting to stick it in a needle and inject it, is there
any real reason to shoot up ibogaine? Does it have any benefit that
taking it orally doesn’t?

KV

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 14, 2005 at 5:23:32 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Heh, well the only thing I’ve ever stuck up me bum was cactus juice, and
then spend the next 20-30 minutes waiting for it to be absorbed into your
system and resisting the urge to fart or go to the loo. Slight leakage
sometimes (finding “bright green smears” in yer undies whilst tripping is
pretty bizarre…) so I’d imagine a bit would come back out.  A mate of mine
forgot about the cactus enema and “let one rip” and oh boy you can imagine
what that did to his pants!!!
Ah the memories…
Kirk

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2005 1:33 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

soliubitity increases a bit when some acid like vit c is added.
that might be useful when using an enema since then you need less water
to shoot it anally. i´m not so experienced with enemas, does the water
sometimes run out again? i only know those diazepam one-way rectal
tubes that contain only a few ml.

about injecting i came to think that in addition to possible
heart/bloodpressure problems there is the danger of a possible allergic
shock even with minimal amounts, especially for bodies that didn´t know
iboga before.

a silly song (OT): http://www.rathergood.com/soluble/

ekki

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___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 14, 2005 at 4:33:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks for the song,  was nice ,
the professionals use these I think:

http://store.medicalresourceusa.com/infusion-pumps.html

http://store.medicalresourceusa.com/bl13chivst.html

: )

or visualization could be cheeper.

http://tarot.com/oracle/images/hexagrams/pict27.jpeg

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
soliubitity increases a bit when some acid like vit c is added.
that might be useful when using an enema since then you need less water
to shoot it anally. i´m not so experienced with enemas, does the water
sometimes run out again? i only know those diazepam one-way rectal
tubes that contain only a few ml.

about injecting i came to think that in addition to possible
heart/bloodpressure problems there is the danger of a possible allergic
shock even with minimal amounts, especially for bodies that didn´t know
iboga before.

a silly song (OT): http://www.rathergood.com/soluble/

ekki

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 14, 2005 at 9:32:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

soliubitity increases a bit when some acid like vit c is added.
that might be useful when using an enema since then you need less water to shoot it anally. i´m not so experienced with enemas, does the water sometimes run out again? i only know those diazepam one-way rectal tubes that contain only a few ml.

about injecting i came to think that in addition to possible heart/bloodpressure problems there is the danger of a possible allergic shock even with minimal amounts, especially for bodies that didn´t know iboga before.

a silly song (OT): http://www.rathergood.com/soluble/

ekki

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From: Frank Gillice <fpg@ureach.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 14, 2005 at 10:39:05 AM EDT
To: “shelley krupa” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I need to find a source for Iboba.  I was wondering if yu would
point me in the right direction?

—- On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, shelley krupa
(skrupa20022002@yahoo.com) wrote:

Hi All ,every time i did iboba I was very aware of my breathe
& how I breath habitually ,I learned
how my anxst created this constriction &how my approach to
life effects my breathe & there fore my
state of being. I have heard you learn how to breath from your
mother,that a person imitates what
they see/sense as infants from her, I would take these huge
breaths in on ibogaine & release them
with such a shudder, I breathed in the deepest ever,but much
more slowly,it was cool!-shell

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 12.09.2005 um 21:39 schrieb Nick Sandberg:

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 11 September 2005 20:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Good description, Matt. On the issue of finding oneself not
breathing,
I’ve wondered if it could be a defense mechanism against
difficult
feelings.

Could be birth trauma. They’re pretty common and usually
breathing
associated. In rebirthing it’s the main thing they try and
process.
Just a
thought.

Nick

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:49:10 -0700 Matthew Shriver
wrote:
But to speak more directly to the safety issue from my own
experience, I have to admit that 3 of the 5 times I have
taken it,

I had fears and anxiety about dying from it. The first two
times
I took it I did not have any fear or anxiety about death.
The
third time I had this weird sense that I was not breathing
as
often as I should, like I was taking only one or two
breaths a minute. Not on purpose but simply because my
body
wasn’t getting the message that it was necessary. I
remember
feeling like I could feel my brain winding down as the
oxygen
was depleted only to feel it hum back to life again after
taking
a breath. …

sounds just like a clear view of how it is with breathing
inhaling is coming to life, exhaling is letting go of life.

to see that on ibogaine doesn´t have to be defense or trauma.
i mean maybe could be but i rather would consider it as
something very
positive.

to focus on breathing while doing iboga is very recommendable
already small amounts of ibo can enable you to stay in the
moment with
your breath

of course one can make similar experiences with meditation or
yoga
without any drugs
expansion and contraction, yin yang etc., the whole dualistic
universe
already there in inhaling and exhaling
like a swinging door

-ekki

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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 14, 2005 at 10:09:46 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi All ,every time i did iboba I was very aware of my breathe & how I breath habitually ,I learned how my anxst created this constriction &how my approach to life effects my breathe & there fore my state of being. I have heard you learn how to breath from your mother,that a person imitates what they see/sense as infants from her, I would take these huge breaths in on ibogaine & release them with such a shudder, I breathed in the deepest ever,but much more slowly,it was cool!-shell

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 12.09.2005 um 21:39 schrieb Nick Sandberg:

>
>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
>> Sent: 11 September 2005 20:50
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
>>
>>
>> Good description, Matt. On the issue of finding oneself not
>> breathing,
>> I’ve wondered if it could be a defense mechanism against difficult
>> feelings.
>>
>
> Could be birth trauma. They’re pretty common and usually breathing
> associated. In rebirthing it’s the main thing they try and process.
> Just a
> thought.
>
> Nick
>
>
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:49:10 -0700 Matthew Shriver
>> wrote:
>>> But to speak more directly to the safety issue from my own
>>> experience, I have to admit that 3 of the 5 times I have taken it,
>>
>>> I had fears and anxiety about dying from it. The first two times
>>> I took it I did not have any fear or anxiety about death. The
>>> third time I had this weird sense that I was not breathing as
>>> often as I should, like I was taking only one or two
>>> breaths a minute. Not on purpose but simply because my body
>>> wasn’t getting the message that it was necessary. I remember
>>> feeling like I could feel my brain winding down as the oxygen
>>> was depleted only to feel it hum back to life again after taking
>>> a breath. …

sounds just like a clear view of how it is with breathing
inhaling is coming to life, exhaling is letting go of life.

to see that on ibogaine doesn´t have to be defense or trauma.
i mean maybe could be but i rather would consider it as something very
positive.

to focus on breathing while doing iboga is very recommendable
already small amounts of ibo can enable you to stay in the moment with
your breath

of course one can make similar experiences with meditation or yoga
without any drugs
expansion and contraction, yin yang etc., the whole dualistic universe
already there in inhaling and exhaling
like a swinging door

-ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 14, 2005 at 9:26:27 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 12.09.2005 um 21:39 schrieb Nick Sandberg:

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 11 September 2005 20:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Good description, Matt. On the issue of finding oneself not
breathing,
I’ve wondered if it could be a defense mechanism against difficult
feelings.

Could be birth trauma. They’re pretty common and usually breathing
associated. In rebirthing it’s the main thing they try and process. Just a
thought.

Nick

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:49:10 -0700 Matthew Shriver
<matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
But to speak more directly to the safety issue from my own
experience, I have to admit that 3 of the 5 times I have taken it,

I had fears and anxiety about dying from it.  The first two times
I took it I did not have any fear or anxiety about death.  The
third time I had this weird sense that I was not breathing as
often as I should, like I was taking only one or two
breaths a minute.  Not on purpose but simply because my body
wasn’t getting the message that it was necessary.  I remember
feeling like I could feel my brain winding down as the oxygen
was depleted only to feel it hum back to life again after taking
a breath. …

sounds just like a clear view of how it is with breathing
inhaling is coming to life, exhaling is letting go of life.

to see that on ibogaine doesn´t have to be defense or trauma.
i mean maybe could be but i rather would consider it as something very positive.

to focus on breathing while doing iboga is very recommendable
already small amounts of ibo can enable you to stay in the moment with your breath

of course one can make similar experiences with meditation or yoga without any drugs
expansion and contraction, yin yang etc., the whole dualistic universe already there in inhaling and exhaling
like a swinging door

-ekki

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bruce
Date: September 14, 2005 at 2:55:21 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Bruce,

You still around mate? I have been trying to reply to your email but your address seems to be out there in the twilight zone it keeps coming back
to me(the email I send to you).

So ah,..whats going on mate? Are you out there or what?

From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Roe vs Wade
Date: September 14, 2005 at 2:09:12 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Q: What is George W. Bush’s position on Roe vs. Wade?

 
  A: He really doesn’t care how people get out of New Orleans.

From: mcorcoran <mcorcoran27@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 13, 2005 at 7:04:45 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

:o)

biscuitboy714@aol.com wrote:
OK that’s enough. Are you really going to shoot Ibogaine? Dude I’m sorry but this just seems like somebody wanting to put something in a spoon and cook it. I’ll tell what, why don’t we all just sit in a hot bath and shoot ice water for the rush.    Love and needle dope     Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:12:49 EDT
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki

An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take a lot of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you interested in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 13, 2005 at 12:44:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>On second thought from what I’ve read it wouldn’t be too pleasant either with side effects.<
Whoah!  Yeah, you’re right there Bruce lol – having the police taking you in, searching and questioning while you’re bending and shaking with Ibogaine flooding through you. I don’t even want to think about it.               Sjonny

From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:37:04 EDT

Howard has a nice thought…. if only all the folks physically dependent down in New Orleans has an emergency ibo dose. There must have been terrible, terrible suffering for those who couldn’t get their meds.

On a lighter note, it would also be a good idea to have an emergency dose to take if you are going to get busted and spend any time in lockup. …On second thought from what I’ve read it wouldn’t be too pleasant either with side effects.

Bruce

/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 13, 2005 at 12:13:51 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yeah, gotta agree with my friend Randy (gosh it was great seeing you Saturday, as already noted) admit shooting ibogaine doesn’t sound all that, oh, constructive, but more like, “ah, a neat new drugs I MIGHT be able to fit in my rig and bang, like that Nyquil I shot when sick that time,” etc.
😉
Bad idea in my own humble opinion. Shove it up your bum, that was you still get to use a syringe but without having to find a vein or watch blood shoot up into the rig, etc.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

OK that’s enough. Are you really going to shoot Ibogaine? Dude I’m sorry but this just seems like somebody wanting to put something in a spoon and cook it. I’ll tell what, why don’t we all just sit in a hot bath and shoot ice water for the rush.    Love and needle dope     Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:12:49 EDT
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki

An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take a lot of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you interested in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard
</H

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 13, 2005 at 11:32:48 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 13.09.2005 um 16:37 schrieb Nowwarat@aol.com:

On a lighter note, it would also be a good idea to have an emergency dose to take if you are going to get busted and spend any time in lockup.
but what if you get busted for carrying around an emergency dose of ibogaine?

From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 13, 2005 at 10:37:04 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard has a nice thought…. if only all the folks physically dependent down in New Orleans has an emergency ibo dose. There must have been terrible, terrible suffering for those who couldn’t get their meds.

On a lighter note, it would also be a good idea to have an emergency dose to take if you are going to get busted and spend any time in lockup. …On second thought from what I’ve read it wouldn’t be too pleasant either with side effects.

Bruce

From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 13, 2005 at 10:26:13 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“s4cr3m3nt”
http://www.jungle-records.demon.co.uk/graphics/freudcd050.jpg

biscuitboy714@aol.com wrote:
OK that’s enough. Are you really going to shoot Ibogaine? Dude I’m sorry but this just seems like somebody wanting to put something in a spoon and cook it. I’ll tell what, why don’t we all just sit in a hot bath and shoot ice water for the rush.    Love and needle dope     Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:12:49 EDT
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki

An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take a lot of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you interested in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard
__________________________________________________
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From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 13, 2005 at 9:04:12 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I do not beleive that once Ibo is cleared and Nor is unboard, that there are any QT problems . ECG’s return to normal post Ibo Treatment. Its onlt during the day of treament that the QT stuff takes place

From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 13, 2005 at 5:24:46 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OK that’s enough. Are you really going to shoot Ibogaine? Dude I’m sorry but this just seems like somebody wanting to put something in a spoon and cook it. I’ll tell what, why don’t we all just sit in a hot bath and shoot ice water for the rush.    Love and needle dope     Randy

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:12:49 EDT
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki

An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take a lot of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you interested in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Saddam wasted money, Bush’s build homes
Date: September 12, 2005 at 10:09:23 PM EDT
To: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050906/cm_thenation/120080;_ylt=Ap7lOX.DLF6ltBEsLvoNvHms0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQBarbara
Bush: It’s Good Enough for the Poor(Sept. 12, 2005)
Just to recap how insensitive and completely out of touch the Bush clan really
are, here’s Grandmother Bush putting her foot in her mouth, again. Remember
all the US troops filmed inside &quot;opulent&quot; palaces of Saddam Hussein,
and expressed disgust at how he could spend such money on his own homes while
his own people where hungry, even starving? Well, what’s the freakin’ difference?
What sort of home does Barbara Bush live in? Oh yeah, it says right in this
article that she lives in a multi-million dollar home in Houston. The hypocricy
in this country amongst out powerful and rich is so blantant and disgusting
it’s amazing they’ve stayed in power as long as they have, and still show no
signs of relinquishing power at all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 9:57:19 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Heh, but then how many people thought I was a dude??
Well, those who don’t auto delete me that is….
Kirsty Dawn 110% fucked up female.

—–Original Message—–
From: Capt Kirk [mailto:captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, 13 September 2005 1:56 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility

I don’t think he’s planning on using an enema 😉 Unless I’m wrong which
could be the case, I think ekki plans to inject ibogaine.

Um, is Ekki a dude?  Far out, I get names really messed up on here…. so
far I have thought that Lee, Dana and Ekki were all women!!!!
[Capt Kirk]

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 9:56:00 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t think he’s planning on using an enema 😉 Unless I’m wrong which
could be the case, I think ekki plans to inject ibogaine.

Um, is Ekki a dude?  Far out, I get names really messed up on here…. so
far I have thought that Lee, Dana and Ekki were all women!!!!
[Capt Kirk]

___________________________________________________________
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] dose amounts
Date: September 12, 2005 at 9:30:38 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bruce
I’ll leave the dose ranges to someone else but start by converting your weight in pounds to kilos.  So at 200lbs you would be about 91kg.  (There are 2.2 lbs in 1 kg)   And one gram has 1000mg so by dividing 1000 by 91 you can figure the mg/kg dose for 1 gram to be about 11.  My opiate dependence treatment doses have been between about 13 or 14 and 22 or 23 mg/kg.  I apologize if the math part seemed obvious; I don’t mean it in any way condescendingly.
Matt

From: Nowwarat@aol.com [mailto:Nowwarat@aol.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 7:05 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] dose amounts

How much should a two hundred pound man do for test and for treatment?

I’ve heard it is also used for stimulant. How much should above do for that effect?

Bruce

From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] dose amounts
Date: September 12, 2005 at 9:05:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How much should a two hundred pound man do for test and for treatment?

I’ve heard it is also used for stimulant. How much should above do for that effect?

Bruce

From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 9:01:51 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

rectally it might kick in within minutes, too. might be harder on
body/heart when taking larger doses?, i´m not sure.

When I took it rectally I was pretty well fully in (not sure what word to
use here ibospace maybe) within 20 minutes.  That was part of why I was so
scared that time, there was no chance to ease into it.  I was literally
beginning to feel some effects after walking 30 feet or so down the hall
from the bathroom where I administered it to the bedroom.  Within 10 minutes
it was clearly coming on like a freight train.  I really don’t think it was
advantageous in terms of overall effect to do it that way, but on the bright
side, I wasn’t nauseous at all.

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From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 8:52:36 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think by saying injecting ibogaine is beyond present human experience is just too tempting.  I can just hear the thoughts of “Wow, I can go where no man has gone before!”

Bruce

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention
Date: September 12, 2005 at 8:36:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sarah
i like the idea as well although we both know that we create what we belive so the bwiti are a bit behind in their ideology but they still rok the fuk out with their reverence of ibogaine…ah i wish icould get that fernandez book on the bwiti …even checked the libary and wasnt there…….
love
matt

 

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 7:05:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 12.09.2005 um 23:54 schrieb Vector Vector:

I don’t think he’s planning on using an enema 😉 Unless I’m wrong which
could be the case, I think ekki plans to inject ibogaine.
actually i tried yesterday (purely scientific interest) with ca 0.7ml of a solution in warm (previously boiled) water. (the insulin syringe used can hold 1 ml. ) it didn´t hit or anthing, actually i didn´t feel anything at all but drank the rest of the prepared solution then i felt it a little bit.
so it could not have been more than 4,2mg of HCl but was probably less. i was not alone in case for anything to happen.
was just an experiment. ibo is not a kick drug so i think orally is better or maybe nasally, haven´t tried rectal. injecting doesn´t seem to be that dangerous though since you just don´t get enough into one hit at once for it to be fatal it seems to me. you would have to shoot up literally a hundred times before seeing any visions. but anyway any experiment with ibo might be dangerous. i wouldn´t recommed to shoot it, it´s just not the right stuff for doing that.

People are taking it orally, anally, snorting it. People have mentioned
smoking it before on this list in the freebase form, has anyone ever
injected it?
has anyone ever smoked ibo freebase? does not seem to be a good idea.

Is there any advantage to these other methods, will it work better if
you inject ibogaine? Ekki, how different is it to snort ibogaine
instead of taking it orally?
when snorting it takes hold faster than orally. you cannot snort to much at once. generally for treatments, visionary doses etc. orally is better i asume. i can imagine when you have taken some orally and feel you need some more and/or having stomach problems you could snort a line. generally HCl being a salt it can be absorbed very well through the mucosa.

rectally it might kick in within minutes, too. might be harder on body/heart when taking larger doses?, i´m not sure.
You’ve done both could you compare the
effects?
basically the effects are the same i think. apart from the visionary stuff which can make good stories, the magic of iboga hard to describe anyway.

.:vector:.

ekki

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 6:59:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/12/05 5:54:57 PM, vector620022002@yahoo.com writes:

I don’t think he’s planning on using an enema 😉 Unless I’m wrong which
could be the case, I think ekki plans to inject ibogaine.

People are taking it orally, anally, snorting it. People have mentioned
smoking it before on this list in the freebase form, has anyone ever
injected it?

Is there any advantage to these other methods, will it work better if
you inject ibogaine? Ekki, how different is it to snort ibogaine
instead of taking it orally? You’ve done both could you compare the
effects?

.:vector:.

Animal model studies show biphasic swings in blood pressure (up and down).  Lethality increases by ten fold over oral administration.  What ever is going to happen is going to happen faster and may give you less time to respond in a medical emergency.  To the best of my understanding there is no human experience with IV injection of ibogaine.

To be quite honest during the period when I was actively involved in ibogaine regulatory development, we stayed away from discussions of alternate means of administration to the oral route in the hope that no one would go there for safety reasons.

Howard

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: You should see this
Date: September 12, 2005 at 5:56:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks, LMAO over here too 🙂

His company is protecting him from ibogaine, probably porn too. Porn
and ibogaine can be very dangerous in the workplace. If he loaded porn,
ibogaine and the phantom.com site all at once, his building might
overload and explode 🙂

.:vector:.

— Matthew Shriver <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:

My friend tried to read about the list from work.

_____

LMFAO-WMAMDAR

_____

______________________________________________________
Yahoo! for Good
Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 5:54:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t think he’s planning on using an enema 😉 Unless I’m wrong which
could be the case, I think ekki plans to inject ibogaine.

People are taking it orally, anally, snorting it. People have mentioned
smoking it before on this list in the freebase form, has anyone ever
injected it?

Is there any advantage to these other methods, will it work better if
you inject ibogaine? Ekki, how different is it to snort ibogaine
instead of taking it orally? You’ve done both could you compare the
effects?

.:vector:.

— Matthew Shriver <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:

I too am interested in that answer as I too think I can guess.  I can
say
from my last experience with the whole enema deal that I tried to
dissolve
(I didn’t try too hard admittedly) 2 grams in about 1.5 cups (about
0.3
liters) and it clumped up and did not dissolve well at all.  I would
guess
from that experience that it would have taken several times more
water to
dissolve well.  Unless I am mistaken, Howard’s ratio would offer a
guess at
about 6grams/liter or 1.2 grams/cup for us backwards, non-metric
Americans.
But that alone would tell you it will take a little less than a cup
(0.1
liters) to dissolve a single gram.

_____

From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 3:13 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki

An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take
a lot
of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you
interested
in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail – PC Magazine Editors’ Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 5:54:04 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That last 0.1 liter should actually be 0.2 liters.
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 3:40 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility

I too am interested in that answer as I too think I can guess.  I can say from my last experience with the whole enema deal that I tried to dissolve (I didn’t try too hard admittedly) 2 grams in about 1.5 cups (about 0.3 liters) and it clumped up and did not dissolve well at all.  I would guess from that experience that it would have taken several times more water to dissolve well.  Unless I am mistaken, Howard’s ratio would offer a guess at about 6grams/liter or 1.2 grams/cup for us backwards, non-metric Americans.  But that alone would tell you it will take a little less than a cup (0.1 liters) to dissolve a single gram.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 3:13 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:
does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki
An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take a lot of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you interested in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard

From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention
Date: September 12, 2005 at 5:51:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

matt, Thanks  for sharing a wonderful point of view.

may I ask , where did you get the idea of “evil gods of the bwiti”?

you know, I like the idea of evil gods, because atleast they are not
pretending not to be evil and keep two agenda’s.

S.

Dear Lori and Mark
Unfortunetly there is no way to get out of this….u obviously have showed
interest in ibogaine and i gather u didnt read the fine print when signing
up……
the only way i can think of stoping these emails would be to write
“unsubscribe” in the subject area but i really dont think it will work
it seems the evil gods of the bwiti have broken through to this list and
seem to be holding everybody hostage
with deep regrets
matt

Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with  MSN Premium:     Join
now and get the first two months FREE*
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 5:40:21 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I too am interested in that answer as I too think I can guess.  I can say from my last experience with the whole enema deal that I tried to dissolve (I didn’t try too hard admittedly) 2 grams in about 1.5 cups (about 0.3 liters) and it clumped up and did not dissolve well at all.  I would guess from that experience that it would have taken several times more water to dissolve well.  Unless I am mistaken, Howard’s ratio would offer a guess at about 6grams/liter or 1.2 grams/cup for us backwards, non-metric Americans.  But that alone would tell you it will take a little less than a cup (0.1 liters) to dissolve a single gram.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 3:13 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:
does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki
An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take a lot of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you interested in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard

From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: You should see this
Date: September 12, 2005 at 5:28:07 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My friend tried to read about the list from work…

LMFAO-WMAMDAR

 

 

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 5:12:49 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/12/05 4:24:20 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated
solution?

thanks
ekki

An average would be somewhere in 6 mg/ml range.  And that could take a lot of stirring and would be influenced by temperature.  Why are you interested in solubility?  I could guess but I would rather have you say.

Howard

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] solubility
Date: September 12, 2005 at 4:22:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

does anyone know about the solubility of iboHCl?
how much water do you need to completely dissolve 1g?
how much HCl can one liter of water take up until it is a saturated solution?

thanks
ekki

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ayahuasca case news
Date: September 12, 2005 at 4:01:57 PM EDT
To: “Ibogaine Mindvox” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “Andrew Dunn” <support@luibh.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Got this good news from Darpan in Australia, who’d been up on charges of
trafficking ayahuasca for the last 9 months or so. They dropped everything
against him.

Nick

Beloved friends……

I want to express to
you my deep gratitude and heartfelt thanks for the
love, prayers, songs and uplifting thoughts that you
sent my way and that contributed to the best possible
outcome in my recent and final court hearing.
In my last letter I asked you to visualise me as a
free man walking away from this ordeal with a smile on
my face……..
well, I’m happy to report that’s exactly what
happened…….!
Isn’t that a wonderful testament to how powerful a
collective intention can be?
Thank you my dear friends and god bless you all!

The presiding judge had a conservative reputation but
as I faced him, he struck me as a compassionate and
intelligent man………he began by reading a large
stack of character references and testimonials in my
support which appeared to move him somewhat……while
he was busy, I invoked Tara and showered him and the
rest of the room in golden light……..its uncanny
but everything did go very calm and the rest of the
proceedings took place easily and effortlessly with
minimal resistance from the prosecution. My lawyer
made my case in a humble yet assertive manner and put
my interest in ayahuasca firmly within a context of
healing and transformation. The judge accepted this
context on the basis of what he termed “glowing”
character references and after considering the
evidence decided to set me free. There was no fine and
the charges were dismissed. As a token gesture, he
put me on a good behaviour bond for two years. He then
proceeded to apologise for the discomfort of my 3 days
in jail and for the inconvenience of having to endure
bail and numerous court appearances.
It is indeed the best possible result we could have
wished for and thank you so much for playing your part
in it!

This excellent news was followed by the sad and
untimely death of a very close friend, Disha the
following day. She is the wife of Bhakta who I
collaborated with to make “Temple of Glowing Sound”. I
dropped all my commitments to support Bhakta at this
time and that’s why this update comes to you almost a
week late…….
For those of you who are interested, you can order our
upcoming double CD. “The Temple of Glowing Sound” from
my website (www.globaldarpan.com) within the next few
weeks.
My site is down at the moment but will let you know
when it is up and running.

See you a little further down the road…….

In the meantime, I send you spirals of rainbow light
on the wings of a hummingbird…….

Darpan

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 3:39:48 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 11 September 2005 20:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Good description, Matt. On the issue of finding oneself not
breathing,
I’ve wondered if it could be a defense mechanism against difficult
feelings.

Could be birth trauma. They’re pretty common and usually breathing
associated. In rebirthing it’s the main thing they try and process. Just a
thought.

Nick

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:49:10 -0700 Matthew Shriver
<matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
But to speak more directly to the safety issue from my own
experience, I have to admit that 3 of the 5 times I have taken it,

I had fears and anxiety about dying from it.  The first two times
I took it I did not have any fear or anxiety about death.  The
third time I had this weird sense that I was not breathing as
often as I should, like I was taking only one or two
breaths a minute.  Not on purpose but simply because my body
wasn’t getting the message that it was necessary.  I remember
feeling like I could feel my brain winding down as the oxygen
was depleted only to feel it hum back to life again after taking
a breath. …

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention
Date: September 12, 2005 at 3:44:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Lori and Mark
Unfortunetly there is no way to get out of this….u obviously have showed interest in ibogaine and i gather u didnt read the fine print when signing up……
the only way i can think of stoping these emails would be to write “unsubscribe” in the subject area but i really dont think it will work
it seems the evil gods of the bwiti have broken through to this list and seem to be holding everybody hostage
with deep regrets
matt

 

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From: “Petit Hotel Mozart” <lorenzadp@cwpanama.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention
Date: September 12, 2005 at 10:17:56 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hello
how can we get out of this chat room ?we do not want to receive anymore
mails about ibogain.
lori and mark
—– Original Message —–
From: <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention

Happy Birthday Preston!

Take care,

Sara

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 12:30:48 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 12 September 2005 11:57
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Nick,

Thanks for the discussion. I am going to sit down and print off the emails on this topic now and prior and try and put something together on risks. I will send you a copy for your comments when I do. Regarding deaths its also quite possible that some people decide to die (i.e. have a fatal reaction to ibogaine) and that is something that can never be tested for beforehand.

BTW what do you mean by this:

It went down to fatal reaction to t. iboga extract. It would have been ibogaine, but Dr Mash stepped in. Had someone else stepped in it would have been different again. They didn’t know.

Regarding statistics, they can only really be applied when you agree beforehand the parameters to be applied to elements in the group such as risk according to previously identified health problems and risk according to non-identified health problems etc.

Lee

Hi Lee,

I also enjoy to discuss. Sometimes I charge at it a bit, very competitively, it’s a bit my way. I’ve been told it’s my Iranian side! Anyway, about the inquest in 2001. What happened in the first hearing was that the pathologist announced find ibogaine in the body and the coroner was happy to straight away close the case as “fatal reaction to ibogaine.” I stood up and said that I knew the guy had not taken pure ibogaine but the Danish iboga extract. I also said that there was a doc in the US who could give more information on ibogaine levels in blood as, at the time, there were no published papers. They agreed to adjourn and contact Dr Mash’s lab. This happened and at the next session it was decreed that the cause of death was “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” I was left with the distinct feeling that if a defence pathologist had been present, then verdict would have been changed again.

For your consideration I’d also raise a couple of other points re: deaths and the 1/100 stat. I put them down rhetorically….

Firstly, how many people do you think are out there, who don’t use drugs, but who do have an undiagnosed heart condition that wouldn’t be discovered from them sitting down and having one EKG? Would you say less than 1 in a 100? In the West? In the US, the unhealthy heart capital of the world? If you took a random cross section of 100 Western non-drug users, all of who were deemed healthy on liver count and EKG, and gave them ibogaine at 18mg/kilo bodyweight, do you think they’d all make it? I ‘m not at all convinced, and this with 3 exclusion criteria over the group for who I’m proposing 1/100 chance.

Secondly,  what about looking a little more at this whole “spiritual seeker” concept , which I appreciate is not your terminology. I have between 2 and 4 people ask me about ibogaine on an average week. I’d say 99+% are either drug users, relatives or friends of drug users, or people who basically believe they’re fucked up and want to find a solution (usually a quick-fix solution). I don’t recall anyone, not one person in 6+ years, who said “I want to find God” or “I want to take ibogaine to find myself” or “I want to take ibogaine to find out the meaning of life”. People don’t look to ibogaine to do this. That’s my experience. They’re into drugs, people they care about are into drugs, or they can’t get laid. This is pretty much what it comes down to.  Thus, people who are seeking ibogaine mostly either ARE fucked up or strongly believe themselves to be. This is why they do it. I’d say pretty much the whole group is at a reasonable risk level.

Nick

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 12:28:37 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I say read as little about the trips as possible so ur subcouncious wont be saturated with anything it has to simulate or top off…..u ll make it brother!!
love matt

 

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 12:24:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I agree with J —nothing to be afraid of—– plus besides isnt it better to face ur fears—–
u will be stronger for it and the symbolical dying in the trip is the best part of it….
the rebirth might be emotionly stronger and more love dovy but the dying is more fulfiling in the sense that u know that some of the cynical, skeptical etc etc part of u has just died
Best of luck Bruce!
Love matt

 

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From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 11:11:31 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bruce,
I agree with a lot of what Matt says. My experience (my first ever, a month ago)  has initiated a personal revolution, but it was frightening at times. Having my worst personal problems, worries and fears thrust into my open vulnerable mind was traumatic but believe me, it is so worth it – the catharsis is incredible!    
I have reduced my drug intake to an absolute minimum, a huge reduction in fact and I have also stopped drinking (alcohol was wrecking my life more than the other drugs) – nothing has ever worked for me before – I never believed anything would.
This is my experience though and as incredible as it was/is , the best advice I can give you is to visit the Ibogaine.org site and read some of the more negative stories so you can perhaps acquire a balance of opinions. Also in my opinion, an experienced sitter can help provide a more secure environment which I think helps the treatment. In fact I think to dose above a gram on your own is a bad idea – Ibogaine is not like acid or mushrooms, it has strong physical often debilitating properties. Once again these are just my feelings and opinions, the ultimate proof is as ever in the proverbial pudding . Good vibes……….. Sjonny.
From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:06:00 -0600
Bruce
I’ve never snorted ibogaine.  I took it orally with water or juice chaser the first four times.  The fifth time I took it in an enema to avoid nausea but got more than I bargained for as it was absorbed really freakin’ fast.  And as to it being scary, yes it has been to a greater or lesser degree pretty much every time.  Even the first time when I pretty well slept through most of the experience, I remember feeling like I wasn’t ready for the intensity with which it came on.  I could hear the cars and trucks on the highway that was about a quarter of a mile away and I remember thinking they sounded like some sort of demons or something.  The sound was so distorted it made me think of comets roaring through the atmosphere at ungodly speeds hurtling towards some sort of disintegration or cataclysmic collision.  Being in the US I had to have someone send it to me from over seas but after the first few times I took it, I was scared to take the full dose and I split it with a strung out friend and it turned out to be too small of a dose for either of us to get clean.  But as scary and painful as it can be, it can be hugely rewarding too.  Personally I think my biggest emotional and spiritual growth has emerged from soil made fertile by intense pain.
Matt
From: Nowwarat@aol.com [mailto:Nowwarat@aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:21 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Matt, your ibogaine remembrance makes it sound very scary. I think listening to  you scares me a bit. I don’t want to take a drug and have a life and death struggle in a dream world. It reminds me of a nightmare that has your trapped and powerless. Now if you told me y ou saw beautiful colors and the walls came alive and you could smell the music…that’s different.

SO what is the difference between snorting a line of ibogain HCL and ingesting it orally?

Bruce

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 6:56:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick,

Thanks for the discussion. I am going to sit down and print off the emails on this topic now and prior and try and put something together on risks. I will send you a copy for your comments when I do. Regarding deaths its also quite possible that some people decide to die (i.e. have a fatal reaction to ibogaine) and that is something that can never be tested for beforehand.

BTW what do you mean by this:

It went down to fatal reaction to t. iboga extract. It would have been ibogaine, but Dr Mash stepped in. Had someone else stepped in it would have been different again. They didn’t know.

Regarding statistics, they can only really be applied when you agree beforehand the parameters to be applied to elements in the group such as risk according to previously identified health problems and risk according to non-identified health problems etc.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 22:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Hi Nick,

I am trying to follow your argument so please forgive me if I am a bit slow on this.

1. I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body damage than for non drug users.

I agree when you add the words: “without significant body damage.” That is why at least 99 out of a hundred drug users are not dying from taking ibogaine. But the fact is within the drug using community individuals with perhaps 20 years of H or whatever use have weakened systems due to poor diet etc. You cannot seriously think that someone who has lived a reasonably healthy life and does not have body damage is in the same risk group?

Hi Lee,

Well, personally, I think the issue of dosage is bigger here. Those trying to overcome drug issues typically take up to twice the dose of those not. Personally, I see this as a big factor with relation to mortality. I agree that someone who’s body is in good shape has relatively little to fear with regard to ibogaine. But this brings up a secondary issue….which relates to whether one is really aware what shape your body’s in. Amongst those who died during or immediately after ibogaine sessions, I’m pretty sure there’s at least 1, possibly two or more who passed prior EKG. Cardiac problems were revealed in autopsy, a little late. (This is as I recall. I don’t have great notes and will happily be corrected by someone who has better.) This isn’t good. A lot of these tests are pretty superficial.

Ok. Lets rephrase matters then. Regardless of whether one is a drug user or not, one falls into the 1 in a 100 category if one has significant body damage. Do you agree with that or is your position that all deaths due to ibogaine are simply a matter of mystery?

I attended an inquest in London in Jan 2001. I actually knew personally the pathologist. These guys didn’t really have a clue why the guy died 38 hours after taking ibogaine. It went down to fatal reaction to t. iboga extract. It would have been ibogaine, but Dr Mash stepped in. Had someone else stepped in it would have been different again. They didn’t know. Not enough is known about the effects of ibogaine on the body to make authoratitive statements. Ibogaine has been cleared from blame in several inquests. With more information maybe it would have taken the rap. You can’t say.

The word I have from contacts is that we don’t know why people are sometimes dying.

As to your statement above, I agree with neither position. I say it’s a 1 in 100 shot because that fits my limited statistical analysis of the situation. I’m figuring 2000 treatments and 20 deaths. It’s guesswork.

You also state that noone knows why deaths occur exactly. Yet, whenever a case is raised and information comes through, as in the examples you put forward, out comes the info that either the person had congenital heart defects or was a long term drug user or whatever.

Or whatever??

For sure, having heart problems is identified as a factor.

How many cases do you know of that have been attributed to anything other than liver, vascular or heart disease? If the answer is zero in 20,000 or even 1 in 20,000 then I suggest you may not be representing matters in as fair a light as possible.

2. You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful context.
So what you are saying here is that the autopsy’s carried out are meaningless?

I’m saying they don’t know an actual mechanism of death in most cases. That’s my info. An autopsy is only a limited examination of the situation. Where there’s a lack of scientifically recorded data about a drug, things can get pretty open ended.
Nick don’t get me wrong. I think its great you take such an extreme position as it focuses the debate. I just want to be sure of exactly how extreme your position is as i am struggling to represent the dangers of ibogaine use in my book rewrite as accurately as is possible withouyt allowing my own bias in, i.e. I would be happy to include some of what you write if I believed it were presented fairly but as yet I am not convinced.

Then study statistics a little. You can do it for both of us! Statistically, I stand by 1 in 100.

3. This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users” against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

I am not sure you you are refering to here except to say that even you have to admit that the healing potential of ibogaine at times is startling and at other times lame. So its not about promoting false ideas of the dangers or safety of ibogaine. Its about saying: “hey, here is a potentially revolutionary drug which can work for some and not for others but be careful as it can be dangerous like all drugs. Look, here is a reasonable assessment of the risk.”

I’d say ibogaine is a lot more dangerous than the drugs of abuse, in the short term. The risk of death from a single administration of ibogaine is higher than that for heroin, cocaine, lsd, ecstasy. Some drugs of abuse are incredibly safe – ketamine is a children’s anaesthetic. They give it when they have to pull babies teeth out. I don’t think you can say “like all drugs” to guys who are highly familiar with drug usage. The risk factor associated with ibogaine is way higher.

Thats the position i am trying to move towards.

Me too.

I have no ajenda whatsoever in people taking ibogaine even if it appears to the contrary. (Maybe I came across more zealously before. I am becoming more detached now with experience.)

Fair enough. Me also.

My interest is to help with information so people can make an informed choice and know that one exists and also to record whatever observations I can that may be of use. If anyone decides to take it I consider that a matter between themselves and whatever form of God they ascribe too. I certainly hope that noone takes it who is not meant to as that only drags it down.

Well, I don’t take this position. People die, they die. Who’s to say this was actually a negative thing? Who the fuck actually knows? My position is that I inform people of the risks. I do so in a clear manner. It’s a 1/100 shot. Now you know. Now you’re informed. Go do what you will. Confront your destiny. Or not. Whatever.

Nick

BTW thanks for the discussion.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 11:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

HI Nick,

Thanks for your reply. Regarding low dose therapy my gut feeling is that for a normal healthy adult the risk is probably approaching zero. Personally I push the position to start low with ibogaine as the body grows accustomed to it and one can also judge ones reaction better. I also take the position that its an individual decision and nobody should push another towards it regardless of how positive an influence it may be in certain cases. It’s definitely not for everyone and should not be for everyone.

Yet having said all that i recognise the huge potential ibogaine has for healing in conjunction with other modalities. Like aspirin or penicillin, there will be those who will have negative reactions leading to death. Yet society depends on these drugs and its the absence of ignorance that allows them to flourish.

Hence the reporting of risk should be carried out imo in as impartial a manner as possible. Otherwise newspapers etc will pick up any bias that suits their reporting and individuals will be left confused or misinformed.

With all due respect but I think your bias is evident. What harm does it do to expand your assessment of the dangers by putting it into more context?

Hi Lee,

As I wrote in reply to Howard, the word “context” here is the same as “bias.” I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body damage than for non drug users. If you can point me to some I would be very happy to hear it.

This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users” against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

Is it that the lack of knowledge on these deaths that gives you the bumps?

Yes, it is. Absolutely! If someone can explain just why some of these guys died it would certainly make me feel a lot happier about promoting ibogaine. As it is, I’m happy with 1 in a 100.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

If so does anyone have any useful information to put these deaths into proper context?

You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful context. You can make guesses statistically through examining their backgrounds but to do this you finally also have to demonstrate that the context you come up with is equally valid for each side. In this case it means that you need the same or similar number of recorded treatments on both drug users and non drug users. You don’t have this. You don’t have anywhere near this. Thus, this whole “context” issue, I submit, is merely the mind trying to distance itself from the thought that…..actually, ibogaine is potentially really quite a dangerous drug.

Don’t get me wrong. Ibogaine deaths scare me also. I think its a huge responsibility to provide for people in a high risk group and I take my hat off to them. I am not sure I could do it.

Again, this “high risk group” of yours has no statistical validity to it. It’s a misapplied criteria.

Nick

Nick, clearly there are dangers with ibogaine in the same way that there are dangers with all manner of things. That is why a potential user of ibogaine will seek imo to have as full and as complete knowledge as they can in order to find the safest route possible and to weigh up the odds of taking ibogaine vs the odds of surviving in their present lifestyle. Then an individual, if determined, can find their own way through the dangers rather than take pot luck. In that sense I applaud your more realistic assessment where it applies.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will happily change the wording.
Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart.

Hi Howard,

If I recall there were deaths associated with cardiac disorders not diagnosed until autopsy, despite some prior testing. I’m not 100% sure about this but to me it puts a different slant upon things if so.

I’m also generally concerned that not enough is really known about why some of these guys died to say that prior drug use was even an issue. The non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population may be out of the fatality chart but, to me, this by no means implies that ibogaine is likely safe for non-addict non-cardiac people for the following reasons – (i) the majority of recorded studies were done on those with drug use issues, (ii) dosage levels for drug use issues are higher generally, and (iii) too little is known about why these guys died.

If we had a lot of recorded treatments for those who didn’t use ibogaine for drug issues I could move from this position, for sure.

Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have to sort out different patient populations.

Well, I find that you come from more of an “ibogaine proponent” position than myself. You can fiddle about with stats and get them to mean all sorts of things – to me this by no means implies that ibogaine is safe. Generally, I find that some list members, quite naturally, do have an emotional investment in believing ibogaine to be fundamentally safe. Whilst this is useful to counterbalance the negative vested interests of some medical establishment people, at a personal level I find I also have to really look and ask myself – Do I really believe this drug is safe? Is enough really known and aren’t there plenty of warning signs?

Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I am not.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Nick

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 4:09:36 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bruce,…maaaate,

Nothing to be scared of,..it’s all good. I believe this is an experience you need to go through. Experiencing death and rebirth for me was an integral part of my freedom.
Mmmmm freedom,..it is sooo tasty.

Just dive into it mate,..don’t worry about wether the water will be cold or not. I was scared shitless before taking Iboga only to realise there was nothing to be scared of.
The unknown can be a very scary experience. I thought also that I was dying,..actually when I think of it now it was quite funny. All it is, is a part of you that does not
serve what you now choose to experience that dies,…well,..it was for me.

Go for it dude,.. if you are really sick of being shackled then go for it. I was that sick of it that I wanted to go home back to the other side, now life has started all over
again.

The essence of who you are cannot ever die.

Listening to Supertramp,..He needs time, he needs time for living.

with love Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: Nowwarat@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Matt, your ibogaine remembrance makes it sound very scary. I think listening to  you scares me a bit. I don’t want to take a drug and have a life and death struggle in a dream world. It reminds me of a nightmare that has your trapped and powerless. Now if you told me y ou saw beautiful colors and the walls came alive and you could smell the music…that’s different.

SO what is the difference between snorting a line of ibogain HCL and ingesting it orally?

Bruce

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 12, 2005 at 3:43:58 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 12.09.2005 um 01:20 schrieb Nowwarat@aol.com:

SO what is the difference between snorting a line of ibogain HCL and ingesting it orally?

Bruce

snorting is not so good for larger doses i guess. to snort a whole gram may be difficult for the nose and the mucosa to absorb. i believe you need a full trip first before you can enjoy small doses.

on my first end addiction experience with ibogaine (est. 25mg/kg) i saw a lot of not so nice things and felt leaving my body and personality but it was not scary. tree top effect. there is just so much happening that you don´t have time to be scared or suffering. but i didn´t feel good afterwards, at first. was a strain on body and mind.
after a few times body and mind seem to learn how to handle it better and you don´t need high doses any more. well maybe you don´t need it at all anymore at a certain point.

From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 11, 2005 at 10:06:00 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bruce
I’ve never snorted ibogaine.  I took it orally with water or juice chaser the first four times.  The fifth time I took it in an enema to avoid nausea but got more than I bargained for as it was absorbed really freakin’ fast.  And as to it being scary, yes it has been to a greater or lesser degree pretty much every time.  Even the first time when I pretty well slept through most of the experience, I remember feeling like I wasn’t ready for the intensity with which it came on.  I could hear the cars and trucks on the highway that was about a quarter of a mile away and I remember thinking they sounded like some sort of demons or something.  The sound was so distorted it made me think of comets roaring through the atmosphere at ungodly speeds hurtling towards some sort of disintegration or cataclysmic collision.  Being in the US I had to have someone send it to me from over seas but after the first few times I took it, I was scared to take the full dose and I split it with a strung out friend and it turned out to be too small of a dose for either of us to get clean.  But as scary and painful as it can be, it can be hugely rewarding too.  Personally I think my biggest emotional and spiritual growth has emerged from soil made fertile by intense pain.
Matt
From: Nowwarat@aol.com [mailto:Nowwarat@aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:21 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Matt, your ibogaine remembrance makes it sound very scary. I think listening to  you scares me a bit. I don’t want to take a drug and have a life and death struggle in a dream world. It reminds me of a nightmare that has your trapped and powerless. Now if you told me y ou saw beautiful colors and the walls came alive and you could smell the music…that’s different.

SO what is the difference between snorting a line of ibogain HCL and ingesting it orally?

Bruce

From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 11, 2005 at 7:20:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt, your ibogaine remembrance makes it sound very scary. I think listening to  you scares me a bit. I don’t want to take a drug and have a life and death struggle in a dream world. It reminds me of a nightmare that has your trapped and powerless. Now if you told me y ou saw beautiful colors and the walls came alive and you could smell the music…that’s different.

SO what is the difference between snorting a line of ibogain HCL and ingesting it orally?

Bruce

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Bush re-edited to say what he really means
Date: September 11, 2005 at 7:19:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.squizzle.com/movieview.asp?id=712

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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Nowwarat@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 11, 2005 at 7:10:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What do you find different between ibogaine and tripping in general with psychedelic?

What is the difference between doing a line and an oral route? (oral route ?)

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] New Orleans NBC commentary
Date: September 11, 2005 at 6:58:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Live broadcast done by a reporter who probably doesn’t have a job
anymore.

http://www.wimp.com/administration/

more

beuracracy is murdering people

http://www.wimp.com/abandoned/

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Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/shelter

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From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention
Date: September 11, 2005 at 6:51:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey, Thanks a lot for the toast, I had some cool celebration too, with
John Sinclair and some other
high-times people.I lite one for you.

best wishes.
Sara

Same to you, again, my lovely friendly Amsterdamer.
;-))
Met with a kid to work on a comic book project yesterday, who then went
out
and sketched out a couple sketches to bring to show me at the party, and
WOW
am I excited about this new project. AND a friend of mine is best friends
with one of the top folk at DC/Vertigo Comix, so keep your fingers crossed
folks. This could turn into one of those REALLY cool projects.
Anyway, back to Sara- sorry we could come celebrate with you there,
but
I toasted you with more than one bowl last night.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention

Happy Birthday Preston!

Take care,

Sara

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention
Date: September 11, 2005 at 6:22:34 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Same to you, again, my lovely friendly Amsterdamer.
;-))
Met with a kid to work on a comic book project yesterday, who then went out and sketched out a couple sketches to bring to show me at the party, and WOW am I excited about this new project. AND a friend of mine is best friends with one of the top folk at DC/Vertigo Comix, so keep your fingers crossed folks. This could turn into one of those REALLY cool projects.
Anyway, back to Sara- sorry we could come celebrate with you there, but I toasted you with more than one bowl last night.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention

>
Happy Birthday Preston!

Take care,

Sara

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] thanks folks
Date: September 11, 2005 at 6:15:40 PM EDT
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
I’m really wiped out right now, just having gotten outta bed about half an hour ago, so I”m not sure if I’ve already written to thanks everyone who wrote with good birthday wishes- so I’m doing it again just in case I already did do so once already.
I’d also very much like to thank those who showed up last night to help me/us celebrate, Marc C and Randy, I was so happy to see you two there, and I hope you enjoyed yourselves as much as I did.
The flaming piles of donuts, covered with birthday candles had to be the best birthday “cake” I’ve ever had, and having over a hundred strangers singing “happy birthday,” following along with the mostly naked female friends on stage leading the singing was beautiful.
😉
So anyway, even though I have an “I slept too much” headache right now, I feel happy.
And to Sara in Amsterdam, I Hope your birthday went as nicely as mine did. We were all VERY high I think (lots of mushroom chocolates seemed to be floating around last night, as was some very, very good herb too), and had a ball.
So, NEXT year when I write and say, “hey all, come to LES to have a party, come.
Nuther big ;-))

Peace and love,
the now 39 year old Preston (how the hell I made it to 39 I’ll never figure out, but I did. Yaaaa! I think “yaaa” sometimes anyway.)

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 11, 2005 at 5:57:31 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 11.09.2005 um 20:49 schrieb Matthew Shriver:
The bottom line to me is that as human beings we cannot ever have a total understanding of life, death, and consciousness.  And hallucinogens in general, but especially ibogaine, lays bare our ignorance about our own true nature and what it means to be alive (in any non-biological sense) and aware and conscious.

very true.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 11, 2005 at 5:50:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 11.09.2005 um 00:25 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Ibogaine’s main safety feature is that it’s so unrecreational to take. It’s a fucking drag, basically. If ibogaine was fun to take, if it had abuse potential, people would be dropping like flies.

to take ibogaine can be wonderful, fun, marvelous beyond description and very recreational.
the first few times i took it it was not easy, since then it´s been really fantastic and profound(with doses ranging 2-12mg/kg). not even nausea.

i think the reason why one doesn´t want to take it incessantly is that body and mind need to rest from time to time. apart from that it just costs to much to take a gram every week.

btw sniffing just one line of HCl immediately increases mood, intensity of perception and focus.

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 11, 2005 at 3:49:41 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Good description, Matt. On the issue of finding oneself not
breathing,
I’ve wondered if it could be a defense mechanism against difficult
feelings.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:49:10 -0700 Matthew Shriver
<matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
But to speak more directly to the safety issue from my own
experience, I have to admit that 3 of the 5 times I have taken it,

I had fears and anxiety about dying from it.  The first two times
I took it I did not have any fear or anxiety about death.  The
third time I had this weird sense that I was not breathing as
often as I should, like I was taking only one or two
breaths a minute.  Not on purpose but simply because my body
wasn’t getting the message that it was necessary.  I remember
feeling like I could feel my brain winding down as the oxygen
was depleted only to feel it hum back to life again after taking
a breath. …

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 11, 2005 at 2:49:10 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello all
I think that because the majority of people who come to ibogaine do so as a result of hearing about it’s anti-addictive potential, a majority of those who take it are addicts.  I know there are those out there who take it for spiritual reasons, but outside of the Bwiti culture they are probably a small fraction compared to the addict population; although considering my own background and involvement in the form of this list, I may not be well positioned to hear much about purely “spiritual seeker” ibogaine users.  I also know that addicts in general will be attracted to the notion of an easy fix, and the fact that it comes in the form of a drug is even more attractive.  I know I wanted to believe in ibogaine very much simply because I couldn’t seem to find any other way out of the misery or my addiction, and taking a drug to “cure” my addiction appealed to me very much.  So probably, the majority of ibogaine users will be people who have a bias in the form of a strong motivation and desire to believe it is some sort of miracle “cure”.  I use the word cure because despite the fact that I was explicitly told it was not a cure, I sort of viewed it that way based on the remarkable stories I had heard from addicts who had taken it.

So of that group (using addicts) there will generally be one of three outcomes, they get clean, they don’t get clean, they die.  We are only inclined to hear from those in the first group, although we will occasionally hear from those in the second group and hear about those in the last group, the most vocal group will be those from the first group.  So the loudest voices will tend to be those who went in with a strong motivation to believe in ibogaine and then had an experience that seemed to confirm their belief.  I personally fall into that group.

But to speak more directly to the safety issue from my own experience, I have to admit that 3 of the 5 times I have taken it, I had fears and anxiety about dying from it.  The first two times I took it I did not have any fear or anxiety about death.  The third time I had this weird sense that I was not breathing as often as I should, like I was taking only one or two breaths a minute.  Not on purpose but simply because my body wasn’t getting the message that it was necessary.  I remember feeling like I could feel my brain winding down as the oxygen was depleted only to feel it hum back to life again after taking a breath.  The fourth time I took ibogaine it was worse because again I felt like I was not breathing often enough but this time I would find that I suddenly took a huge gasping breath every few minutes.  I would make this gasping noise as if I had been holding my breath and it alarmed me quite a lot.  I would try and remember to breathe only to find a few minutes later that I had been distracted by what was going on in my head and only be reminded again by another huge gasping breath.  After trying hard to remember and finding that I simply could not keep it in my mind several times, I was forced to accept that fact that I could not save myself by concentration and that if I was going to die as result of asphyxiation it was going to happen despite my best efforts.  After that I relaxed and it went away.

Now having said all of that I will point out that I was alone and had no-one to bounce ideas off of.  I know that ibogaine can have some pretty strong time dilation effects so it is entirely possible I was breathing normally both times and just didn’t know it.

The fifth time I took ibogaine was a little different though. By then it had been a number of years since my fourth experience and there had been more deaths including someone who was close to a friend of mine.  Some of the deaths seemed (and some still seem) unexplained.  So that time I was just flat out terrified.  I have already shared some of that story here but based on how I took the ibogaine and how fast it came on, (there was never any real story like that I would stop breathing or something) I just felt terror that I had done myself in and any second I was going to simply cease to live.  But one thing I felt that I haven’t exactly heard mentioned here is that I felt as though I could choose death very easily.  Like I could opt out of life and just die on the spot.  I remember thinking that I could literally choose not breath and for once in my life my body’s autonomic functions would not intervene to keep me alive.  I chose not to die but I still sometimes wonder what would really have happened had I chose otherwise, which of course provides a possible explanation for other unexplained deaths.  Maybe it was true that I could have chosen to die, maybe some people have done exactly that.

The truth is, I think, that if you take ibogaine without some wariness about the possibility of your own demise you are deluding yourself.  True as with all drugs, the health of the person who takes it is an important consideration, but I suspect that there may be other less obvious considerations too.  The bottom line to me is that as human beings we cannot ever have a total understanding of life, death, and consciousness.  And hallucinogens in general, but especially ibogaine, lays bare our ignorance about our own true nature and what it means to be alive (in any non-biological sense) and aware and conscious.  Considering that hallucinogens have their effect in the same organ that controls both our thinking and our biological functions, it’s not hard for me to believe that there could be some cross-over to the point where thoughts could actually over-ride biology.
Matt
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: September 11, 2005 at 10:49:24 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, thanks for the laughs…that website is/was very entertaining…

Julie

“Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com> wrote:
I don’t find it that good actually , I began to tire of it after 9 or so hours !  Sjonny.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:22:35 EDT

Talking of the big picture this came over from a reporters and journalists list.

http://www.boohbah.com/zone.html

If you keep trying to get it to do something eventually it will.

Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Yahoo! for Good
Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert

From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Howard, Patrick, Nick and Lee (was: risk, therapy)
Date: September 11, 2005 at 9:59:27 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Original Message —
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 03:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Howard, Patrick, Nick and Lee (was: risk, therapy)

At least from what I’ve seen of their writing, Howard and Patrick are
both a little too blase’ about human life (in my humble opinion) and
maybe they’ve both seen and done a lot more then me, so I don’t mean
any disrespect to either of you with that comment, both of you know
there are deaths and mostly you don’t seem to care too much, seen it
all, been there done that, whatever, <shrug> 😉

Your whole identity is vested in ibogaine, this is to Howard and you’ve
spent I don’t even know how many decades working with it so this is
your right. Patrick you’re more gifted at seeing all the sides,
presenting positive, negative and then ending up at do whatever you
want, those were the facts, I don’t care what you do <shrug> 😉 If
there was someone’s photo in the dictionary when you looked up the
yin-yang symbol, it’d be yours. The symbol of chaos does work for you,
that’s you. Nick Sandberg goes more out of his way to phrase what he
writes in a dramatic way but you’re also not anywhere near being
hysterical and only present facts and give opinions. In a weird way all
three of you have a lot of common ground, Howard is over with positive
more often, Nick with negative more often and Patrick is manic
depressive and goes through the entire spectrum in every message 😉 (no
disrespect either, you’re the only person I know who can drop academia
speak, medical terms, words I need to look up, then go into prose and
litter it up with shit and fuck all in a few paragraphs 🙂

If Patrick’s picture was under the yin-yang symbol, Lee if you looked
up the word “zealot” or added “ibogaine zealot” that’s where your
picture would go.

To give you alot of respect you have calmed down a lot, stopped
preaching, started talking and turned into someone who’s messages I
like to read during the last year. You’re a different person then the
messianic loonie who first came here 🙂 I don’t know you but I like
you, you are obviously changing a lot and alot of respect to you for
all that.

You sound reasonable sometimes, but honestly I don’t think it would
matter what facts or data anyone ever presented, that would make you
change your mind and stop dosing yourself with ibogaine 30 times a year
(or more for all I know). If there is a opposite of objective, that’s
you. You need only load up your web site to make that obvious. I don’t
see that as a problem, but just admit it, stop the denial and come out
and say “everyone should do ibogaine all the time! like me!” 😉

Just say it, it’ll set you free! 🙂 You obviously feel that way 🙂 and
maybe it’s working for you! “<shrug>” 😉

.:vector:.

Yo Vector,

Many thanks for my annual assessment. It feels great being packaged away
in your head somewhere, knowing that I’m labelled at least relatively fit
for consumption and with the exiting possibility of being upgraded should
I behave well. As to Lee and messaianic tendencies….man, at least he puts
them out. And can move on from that. That’s what it’s about. I’m still waiting
for you to leap out of the closet man and scream “I’m here to save the world!”
I know it’s in there. Come on, can’t you just give us a little taste of the
messiah within?#

Nick

___________________________________________________________

Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/

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From: sara119@xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] attention
Date: September 11, 2005 at 7:00:59 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Happy Birthday Preston!

Take care,

Sara

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Howard, Patrick, Nick and Lee (was: risk, therapy)
Date: September 11, 2005 at 6:34:40 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At least from what I’ve seen of their writing, Howard and Patrick are
both a little too blase’ about human life (in my humble opinion) and
maybe they’ve both seen and done a lot more then me, so I don’t mean
any disrespect to either of you with that comment, both of you know
there are deaths and mostly you don’t seem to care too much, seen it
all, been there done that, whatever, <shrug> 😉

Your whole identity is vested in ibogaine, this is to Howard and you’ve
spent I don’t even know how many decades working with it so this is
your right. Patrick you’re more gifted at seeing all the sides,
presenting positive, negative and then ending up at do whatever you
want, those were the facts, I don’t care what you do <shrug> 😉 If
there was someone’s photo in the dictionary when you looked up the
yin-yang symbol, it’d be yours. The symbol of chaos does work for you,
that’s you. Nick Sandberg goes more out of his way to phrase what he
writes in a dramatic way but you’re also not anywhere near being
hysterical and only present facts and give opinions. In a weird way all
three of you have a lot of common ground, Howard is over with positive
more often, Nick with negative more often and Patrick is manic
depressive and goes through the entire spectrum in every message 😉 (no
disrespect either, you’re the only person I know who can drop academia
speak, medical terms, words I need to look up, then go into prose and
litter it up with shit and fuck all in a few paragraphs 🙂

If Patrick’s picture was under the yin-yang symbol, Lee if you looked
up the word “zealot” or added “ibogaine zealot” that’s where your
picture would go.

To give you alot of respect you have calmed down a lot, stopped
preaching, started talking and turned into someone who’s messages I
like to read during the last year. You’re a different person then the
messianic loonie who first came here 🙂 I don’t know you but I like
you, you are obviously changing a lot and alot of respect to you for
all that.

You sound reasonable sometimes, but honestly I don’t think it would
matter what facts or data anyone ever presented, that would make you
change your mind and stop dosing yourself with ibogaine 30 times a year
(or more for all I know). If there is a opposite of objective, that’s
you. You need only load up your web site to make that obvious. I don’t
see that as a problem, but just admit it, stop the denial and come out
and say “everyone should do ibogaine all the time! like me!” 😉

Just say it, it’ll set you free! 🙂 You obviously feel that way 🙂 and
maybe it’s working for you! “<shrug>” 😉

.:vector:.

— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Nick,

I am trying to follow your argument so please forgive me if I am a
bit slow on this.

1. I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that
ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body
damage than for non drug users.

I agree when you add the words: “without significant body damage.”
That is why at least 99 out of a hundred drug users are not dying
from taking ibogaine. But the fact is within the drug using community
individuals with perhaps 20 years of H or whatever use have weakened
systems due to poor diet etc. You cannot seriously think that someone
who has lived a reasonably healthy life and does not have body damage
is in the same risk group?

Ok. Lets rephrase matters then. Regardless of whether one is a drug
user or not, one falls into the 1 in a 100 category if one has
significant body damage. Do you agree with that or is your position
that all deaths due to ibogaine are simply a matter of mystery?

You also state that noone knows why deaths occur exactly. Yet,
whenever a case is raised and information comes through, as in the
examples you put forward, out comes the info that either the person
had congenital heart defects or was a long term drug user or
whatever.

How many cases do you know of that have been attributed to anything
other than liver, vascular or heart disease? If the answer is zero in
20,000 or even 1 in 20,000 then I suggest you may not be representing
matters in as fair a light as possible.

2. You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in
statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you
don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful
context.

So what you are saying here is that the autopsy’s carried out are
meaningless?

Nick don’t get me wrong. I think its great you take such an extreme
position as it focuses the debate. I just want to be sure of exactly
how extreme your position is as i am struggling to represent the
dangers of ibogaine use in my book rewrite as accurately as is
possible withouyt allowing my own bias in, i.e. I would be happy to
include some of what you write if I believed it were presented fairly
but as yet I am not convinced.

3. This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users”
against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of
the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased
as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug
users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what
compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to
distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards
ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a
considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous
healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this
belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant
risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

I am not sure you you are refering to here except to say that even
you have to admit that the healing potential of ibogaine at times is
startling and at other times lame. So its not about promoting false
ideas of the dangers or safety of ibogaine. Its about saying: “hey,
here is a potentially revolutionary drug which can work for some and
not for others but be careful as it can be dangerous like all drugs.
Look, here is a reasonable assessment of the risk.” Thats the
position i am trying to move towards.

I have no ajenda whatsoever in people taking ibogaine even if it
appears to the contrary. (Maybe I came across more zealously before.
I am becoming more detached now with experience.)

My interest is to help with information so people can make an
informed choice and know that one exists and also to record whatever
observations I can that may be of use. If anyone decides to take it I
consider that a matter between themselves and whatever form of God
they ascribe too. I certainly hope that noone takes it who is not
meant to as that only drags it down.

BTW thanks for the discussion.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 11:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

HI Nick,

Thanks for your reply. Regarding low dose therapy my gut feeling is
that for a normal healthy adult the risk is probably approaching
zero. Personally I push the position to start low with ibogaine as
the body grows accustomed to it and one can also judge ones reaction
better. I also take the position that its an individual decision and
nobody should push another towards it regardless of how positive an
influence it may be in certain cases. It’s definitely not for
everyone and should not be for everyone.

Yet having said all that i recognise the huge potential ibogaine has
for healing in conjunction with other modalities. Like aspirin or
penicillin, there will be those who will have negative reactions
leading to death. Yet society depends on these drugs and its the
absence of ignorance that allows them to flourish.

Hence the reporting of risk should be carried out imo in as impartial
a manner as possible. Otherwise newspapers etc will pick up any bias
that suits their reporting and individuals will be left confused or
misinformed.

With all due respect but I think your bias is evident. What harm does
it do to expand your assessment of the dangers by putting it into
more context?

Hi Lee,

As I wrote in reply to Howard, the word “context” here is the same as
“bias.” I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state
that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant
body damage than for non drug users. If you can point me to some I
would be very happy to hear it.

This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users”
against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of
the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased
as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug
users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what
compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to
distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards
ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a
considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous
healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this
belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant
risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

Is it that the lack of knowledge on these deaths that gives you the
bumps?

Yes, it is. Absolutely! If someone can explain just why some of these
guys died it would certainly make me feel a lot happier about
promoting ibogaine. As it is, I’m happy with 1 in a 100.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required
hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were
using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get
specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the
latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also
still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear
off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose
“for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who
knows about these things.

If so does anyone have any useful information to put these deaths
into proper context?

You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in
statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you
don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful
context. You can make guesses statistically through examining their
backgrounds but to do this you finally also have to demonstrate that
the context you come up with is equally valid for each side. In this
case it means that you need the same or similar number of recorded
treatments on both drug users and non drug users. You don’t have
this. You don’t have anywhere near this. Thus, this whole “context”
issue, I submit, is merely the mind trying to distance itself from
the thought that…..actually, ibogaine is potentially really quite a
dangerous drug.

Don’t get me wrong. Ibogaine deaths scare me also. I think its a huge
responsibility to provide for people in a high risk group and I take
my hat off to them. I am not sure I could do it.

Again, this “high risk group” of yours has no statistical validity to
it. It’s a misapplied criteria.

Nick

Nick, clearly there are dangers with ibogaine in the same way that
there are dangers with all manner of things. That is why a potential
user of ibogaine will seek imo to have as full and as complete
knowledge as they can in order to find the safest route possible and
to weigh up the odds of taking ibogaine vs the odds of surviving in
their present lifestyle. Then an individual, if determined, can find
their own way through the dangers rather than take pot luck. In that
sense I applaud your more realistic assessment where it applies.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t
see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here
because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people
sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than
non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I
haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been
drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver
problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main
mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more
ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce
a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at
risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for
drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that
the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There
is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased
edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a
fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject,
one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased
perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense
of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording
something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either
predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I
will happily change the wording.

Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated
subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us
that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities
occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred
in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac
disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent,
non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart.

Hi Howard,

If I recall there were deaths associated with cardiac disorders not
diagnosed until autopsy, despite some prior testing. I’m not 100%
sure about this but to me it puts a different slant upon things if
so.

I’m also generally concerned that not enough is really known about
why some of these guys died to say that prior drug use was even an
issue. The non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population
may be out of the fatality chart but, to me, this by no means implies
that ibogaine is likely safe for non-addict non-cardiac people for
the following reasons – (i) the majority of recorded studies were
done on those with drug use issues, (ii) dosage levels for drug use
issues are higher generally, and (iii) too little is known about why
these guys died.

If we had a lot of recorded treatments for those who didn’t use
ibogaine for drug issues I could move from this position, for sure.

Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have
to sort out different patient populations.

Well, I find that you come from more of an “ibogaine proponent”
position than myself. You can fiddle about with stats and get them to
mean all sorts of things – to me this by no means implies that
ibogaine is safe. Generally, I find that some list members, quite
naturally, do have an emotional investment in believing ibogaine to
be fundamentally safe. Whilst this is useful to counterbalance the
negative vested interests of some medical establishment people, at a
personal level I find I also have to really look and ask myself – Do
I really believe this drug is safe? Is enough really known and aren’t
there plenty of warning signs?

Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I
am not.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required
hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were
using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get
specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the
latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also
still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear
off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose
“for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who
knows about these things.

Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients
have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding
any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug
proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well
as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical

study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers
might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched
clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly
excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly
question that.

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a
useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do
appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs
business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here –
Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider
responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information
available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any
other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a
legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality
rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Nick

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is
no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should
be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of
fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine
association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page
<ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related
fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000
(one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved
drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over
a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.

My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for
those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over
a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.

My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for
those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

______________________________________________________
Yahoo! for Good
Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/shelter

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From: “Capt Kirk” <captkirknz@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: [that awesme howard website
Date: September 11, 2005 at 4:09:06 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HOWARD, relax, I and thousands of my followers (urh, I mean unfortunate bastards what happen to be on my :”forward” list) are right now playing to their l’il hearts content.
Thanks mate
It truly is a work of funart
Kurky
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, 11 September 2005 1:31 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] the big picture

It took me about three minutes before I thought it interesting enough to send to the list.

H

In a message dated 9/10/05 7:56:26 PM, sjonnygee@msn.com writes:
I don’t find it that good actually , I began to tire of it after 9 or so hours !  Sjonny.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:22:35 EDT

Talking of the big picture this came over from a reporters and journalists list.

http://www.boohbah.com/zone.html

If you keep trying to get it to do something eventually it will.

From: Marc Emery <Marc420Emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Eugenics in my jail blog
Date: September 10, 2005 at 10:05:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A brief history of Emily Murphy, eugenics and its influence on Nazism. Emily Murphy is responsible for the marijuana prohibition in Canada.
From: Marc Emery <Marc420Emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Eugenics in my jail blog
Date: September 8, 2005 at 8:37:46 PM EDT
To: cnw@cures-not-wars.org

Dana,

Attached is the Eugencis part of my jail blog.

haw@nyc.rr.com is being bounced back

so could you forward this to your friend.

Marc Emery

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: September 10, 2005 at 9:30:41 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It took me about three minutes before I thought it interesting enough to send to the list.

H

In a message dated 9/10/05 7:56:26 PM, sjonnygee@msn.com writes:

I don’t find it that good actually , I began to tire of it after 9 or so hours !  Sjonny.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:22:35 EDT

Talking of the big picture this came over from a reporters and journalists list.

http://www.boohbah.com/zone.html

If you keep trying to get it to do something eventually it will.

From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] 50 Turn out @ Canadian UN Mission for Marc
Date: September 10, 2005 at 7:57:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We were pleasantly surprised by the turn-out at the noon rally at 47th St. & 2nd Ave today. By the tiime 2 pm rolled around, everyone had had their say, and we were massing at right around 40 people. The HIGH TIMES people had already come and gone. 5 people including Rick  Cusic (Editor in chief) and Steve Bloom. So there were about 50 people who passed thru. The Cures contingent (10 or so), 5 E. Village Anarchists (following Jerry the Peddler), kids from Long Island and Pennsylvania (another 7), a few women who’d found out about it on the internet, and 10 kids with their teacher who were probably there more for ibo than the pot issue.

A number of speakers brought up Ibogaine, including Dimitri.

Signs included:

FREE MARC EMERY (twice)

DON’T Surrender Canadian Sovereignty to So-Called U.S. “Justice!”

DON”T CAPITULATE TO U.S. IMPERIAL “JUSTICE!”

LEGALIZATION EFFORTS ARE NOT “MONEY LAUNDERING!”

EXTRADITE BUSH/CHENEY TO THE WORLD COURT!

SAVE POT TV!

NO EXTRADITION FOR RENE BOJE, MICHELLE RAINEY, OR OTHER MEDICAL MARIJUANA PATIENTS!

and my favorite:

CANNABIS PROHIBITION IS NAZI

It’s  my favorite because THE DAILY NEWS ran a column by Lloyd Grove yesterday in which they touted claims made in the Toronto GLOBE that Marc denigrated the Holocaust by comparing drug war victims to the victims of the Nazis. And of course that’s not what he said at all. Lloyd Grove and most Americans are ignorant of the role of Emily Murphy, a major figure of the Eugenics movment, in single-handedly fanning the flames of reefer madness so that Canada prohibited hemp in 1923– almost 15 years before the U.S. and Nazi Germany passed identical laws within a month of each other in 1937.

Hitler actually lauded Emily Murphy as one of his influences because she was seen aa a conservative freminist activist; as a result, marijuana prohibition entered into the toxic stew of Nazi war aims from 1923 onward. Harry Anslinger and Joseph Goebbels were developiong  a plan to round up 6,000 American jazz musicians and fans on the theory that jazz was an aural form of hash oil vapor because syncopation mimicks the time-dilation effects of pot in such a way that listeners are draw into the same neural pathways as cannabis– clearly threatening to foster miscegenation of black men with white women and the downfall of the Aryan race.

On the face of it, an obvious Jewish plot!

Only the advent of Pearl Harbor stopped the big round-up, since all war movies required an obligatory jazz scene (the hatred of Nazis for jazz being well-known due to forays by the Bund down from Milwaukee to beat up people waiting in line in Chicago for Benny Goodman tickets.

But Harry Anslinger went on, eventually to hook up with Gabriel Nahas, the protege of the Greek Stringaris, drug policy czar under Goebbels at the Nazi Ministry of Propaganda. Anslinger was not fired until JFK (a medical user himself) eased him out of the Treasury Dept and into the U.S. delegation to the U.N., where he did his final damag– passing the Single Convention, which is always cited by the DEA as the legal grounds to ban psychedelics and cannabis.

I’ll send more from Marc on Emily Murphy when my other email starts working. Or he can post it himself, if he reads this.

Dana/cnw

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From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: September 10, 2005 at 7:55:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t find it that good actually , I began to tire of it after 9 or so hours !  Sjonny.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:22:35 EDT

Talking of the big picture this came over from a reporters and journalists list.

http://www.boohbah.com/zone.html

If you keep trying to get it to do something eventually it will.

Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:25:27 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 23:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

 

I am not sure you you are refering to here except to say that even you have to admit that the healing potential of ibogaine at times is startling and at other times lame. So its not about promoting false ideas of the dangers or safety of ibogaine. Its about saying: “hey, here is a potentially revolutionary drug which can work for some and not for others but be careful as it can be dangerous like all drugs. Look, here is a reasonable assessment of the risk.”

I’d say ibogaine is a lot more dangerous than the drugs of abuse, in the short term. The risk of death from a single administration of ibogaine is higher than that for heroin, cocaine, lsd, ecstasy. Some drugs of abuse are incredibly safe – ketamine is a children’s anaesthetic. They give it when they have to pull babies teeth out. I don’t think you can say “like all drugs” to guys who are highly familiar with drug usage. The risk factor associated with ibogaine is way higher.

Maybe I should add that what makes so-called abuse drugs dangerous is that they can give pleasure. People tend to take them lots and lots until eventually long-term bodily degeneration takes place, or they get so strung out that they fuck up majorly and end up dead. They are not themselves so toxic as a rule. Ibogaine’s main safety feature is that it’s so unrecreational to take. It’s a fucking drag, basically. If ibogaine was fun to take, if it had abuse potential, people would be dropping like flies.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:16:14 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 22:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Hi Nick,

I am trying to follow your argument so please forgive me if I am a bit slow on this.

1. I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body damage than for non drug users.

I agree when you add the words: “without significant body damage.” That is why at least 99 out of a hundred drug users are not dying from taking ibogaine. But the fact is within the drug using community individuals with perhaps 20 years of H or whatever use have weakened systems due to poor diet etc. You cannot seriously think that someone who has lived a reasonably healthy life and does not have body damage is in the same risk group?

Hi Lee,

Well, personally, I think the issue of dosage is bigger here. Those trying to overcome drug issues typically take up to twice the dose of those not. Personally, I see this as a big factor with relation to mortality. I agree that someone who’s body is in good shape has relatively little to fear with regard to ibogaine. But this brings up a secondary issue….which relates to whether one is really aware what shape your body’s in. Amongst those who died during or immediately after ibogaine sessions, I’m pretty sure there’s at least 1, possibly two or more who passed prior EKG. Cardiac problems were revealed in autopsy, a little late. (This is as I recall. I don’t have great notes and will happily be corrected by someone who has better.) This isn’t good. A lot of these tests are pretty superficial.

Ok. Lets rephrase matters then. Regardless of whether one is a drug user or not, one falls into the 1 in a 100 category if one has significant body damage. Do you agree with that or is your position that all deaths due to ibogaine are simply a matter of mystery?

I attended an inquest in London in Jan 2001. I actually knew personally the pathologist. These guys didn’t really have a clue why the guy died 38 hours after taking ibogaine. It went down to fatal reaction to t. iboga extract. It would have been ibogaine, but Dr Mash stepped in. Had someone else stepped in it would have been different again. They didn’t know. Not enough is known about the effects of ibogaine on the body to make authoratitive statements. Ibogaine has been cleared from blame in several inquests. With more information maybe it would have taken the rap. You can’t say.

The word I have from contacts is that we don’t know why people are sometimes dying.

As to your statement above, I agree with neither position. I say it’s a 1 in 100 shot because that fits my limited statistical analysis of the situation. I’m figuring 2000 treatments and 20 deaths. It’s guesswork.

You also state that noone knows why deaths occur exactly. Yet, whenever a case is raised and information comes through, as in the examples you put forward, out comes the info that either the person had congenital heart defects or was a long term drug user or whatever.

Or whatever??

For sure, having heart problems is identified as a factor.

How many cases do you know of that have been attributed to anything other than liver, vascular or heart disease? If the answer is zero in 20,000 or even 1 in 20,000 then I suggest you may not be representing matters in as fair a light as possible.

2. You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful context.
So what you are saying here is that the autopsy’s carried out are meaningless?

I’m saying they don’t know an actual mechanism of death in most cases. That’s my info. An autopsy is only a limited examination of the situation. Where there’s a lack of scientifically recorded data about a drug, things can get pretty open ended.
Nick don’t get me wrong. I think its great you take such an extreme position as it focuses the debate. I just want to be sure of exactly how extreme your position is as i am struggling to represent the dangers of ibogaine use in my book rewrite as accurately as is possible withouyt allowing my own bias in, i.e. I would be happy to include some of what you write if I believed it were presented fairly but as yet I am not convinced.

Then study statistics a little. You can do it for both of us! Statistically, I stand by 1 in 100.

3. This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users” against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

I am not sure you you are refering to here except to say that even you have to admit that the healing potential of ibogaine at times is startling and at other times lame. So its not about promoting false ideas of the dangers or safety of ibogaine. Its about saying: “hey, here is a potentially revolutionary drug which can work for some and not for others but be careful as it can be dangerous like all drugs. Look, here is a reasonable assessment of the risk.”

I’d say ibogaine is a lot more dangerous than the drugs of abuse, in the short term. The risk of death from a single administration of ibogaine is higher than that for heroin, cocaine, lsd, ecstasy. Some drugs of abuse are incredibly safe – ketamine is a children’s anaesthetic. They give it when they have to pull babies teeth out. I don’t think you can say “like all drugs” to guys who are highly familiar with drug usage. The risk factor associated with ibogaine is way higher.

Thats the position i am trying to move towards.

Me too.

I have no ajenda whatsoever in people taking ibogaine even if it appears to the contrary. (Maybe I came across more zealously before. I am becoming more detached now with experience.)

Fair enough. Me also.

My interest is to help with information so people can make an informed choice and know that one exists and also to record whatever observations I can that may be of use. If anyone decides to take it I consider that a matter between themselves and whatever form of God they ascribe too. I certainly hope that noone takes it who is not meant to as that only drags it down.

Well, I don’t take this position. People die, they die. Who’s to say this was actually a negative thing? Who the fuck actually knows? My position is that I inform people of the risks. I do so in a clear manner. It’s a 1/100 shot. Now you know. Now you’re informed. Go do what you will. Confront your destiny. Or not. Whatever.

Nick

BTW thanks for the discussion.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 11:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

HI Nick,

Thanks for your reply. Regarding low dose therapy my gut feeling is that for a normal healthy adult the risk is probably approaching zero. Personally I push the position to start low with ibogaine as the body grows accustomed to it and one can also judge ones reaction better. I also take the position that its an individual decision and nobody should push another towards it regardless of how positive an influence it may be in certain cases. It’s definitely not for everyone and should not be for everyone.

Yet having said all that i recognise the huge potential ibogaine has for healing in conjunction with other modalities. Like aspirin or penicillin, there will be those who will have negative reactions leading to death. Yet society depends on these drugs and its the absence of ignorance that allows them to flourish.

Hence the reporting of risk should be carried out imo in as impartial a manner as possible. Otherwise newspapers etc will pick up any bias that suits their reporting and individuals will be left confused or misinformed.

With all due respect but I think your bias is evident. What harm does it do to expand your assessment of the dangers by putting it into more context?

Hi Lee,

As I wrote in reply to Howard, the word “context” here is the same as “bias.” I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body damage than for non drug users. If you can point me to some I would be very happy to hear it.

This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users” against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

Is it that the lack of knowledge on these deaths that gives you the bumps?

Yes, it is. Absolutely! If someone can explain just why some of these guys died it would certainly make me feel a lot happier about promoting ibogaine. As it is, I’m happy with 1 in a 100.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

If so does anyone have any useful information to put these deaths into proper context?

You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful context. You can make guesses statistically through examining their backgrounds but to do this you finally also have to demonstrate that the context you come up with is equally valid for each side. In this case it means that you need the same or similar number of recorded treatments on both drug users and non drug users. You don’t have this. You don’t have anywhere near this. Thus, this whole “context” issue, I submit, is merely the mind trying to distance itself from the thought that…..actually, ibogaine is potentially really quite a dangerous drug.

Don’t get me wrong. Ibogaine deaths scare me also. I think its a huge responsibility to provide for people in a high risk group and I take my hat off to them. I am not sure I could do it.

Again, this “high risk group” of yours has no statistical validity to it. It’s a misapplied criteria.

Nick

Nick, clearly there are dangers with ibogaine in the same way that there are dangers with all manner of things. That is why a potential user of ibogaine will seek imo to have as full and as complete knowledge as they can in order to find the safest route possible and to weigh up the odds of taking ibogaine vs the odds of surviving in their present lifestyle. Then an individual, if determined, can find their own way through the dangers rather than take pot luck. In that sense I applaud your more realistic assessment where it applies.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will happily change the wording.
Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart.

Hi Howard,

If I recall there were deaths associated with cardiac disorders not diagnosed until autopsy, despite some prior testing. I’m not 100% sure about this but to me it puts a different slant upon things if so.

I’m also generally concerned that not enough is really known about why some of these guys died to say that prior drug use was even an issue. The non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population may be out of the fatality chart but, to me, this by no means implies that ibogaine is likely safe for non-addict non-cardiac people for the following reasons – (i) the majority of recorded studies were done on those with drug use issues, (ii) dosage levels for drug use issues are higher generally, and (iii) too little is known about why these guys died.

If we had a lot of recorded treatments for those who didn’t use ibogaine for drug issues I could move from this position, for sure.

Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have to sort out different patient populations.

Well, I find that you come from more of an “ibogaine proponent” position than myself. You can fiddle about with stats and get them to mean all sorts of things – to me this by no means implies that ibogaine is safe. Generally, I find that some list members, quite naturally, do have an emotional investment in believing ibogaine to be fundamentally safe. Whilst this is useful to counterbalance the negative vested interests of some medical establishment people, at a personal level I find I also have to really look and ask myself – Do I really believe this drug is safe? Is enough really known and aren’t there plenty of warning signs?

Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I am not.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Nick

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 5:02:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick,

I am trying to follow your argument so please forgive me if I am a bit slow on this.

1. I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body damage than for non drug users.

I agree when you add the words: “without significant body damage.” That is why at least 99 out of a hundred drug users are not dying from taking ibogaine. But the fact is within the drug using community individuals with perhaps 20 years of H or whatever use have weakened systems due to poor diet etc. You cannot seriously think that someone who has lived a reasonably healthy life and does not have body damage is in the same risk group?

Ok. Lets rephrase matters then. Regardless of whether one is a drug user or not, one falls into the 1 in a 100 category if one has significant body damage. Do you agree with that or is your position that all deaths due to ibogaine are simply a matter of mystery?

You also state that noone knows why deaths occur exactly. Yet, whenever a case is raised and information comes through, as in the examples you put forward, out comes the info that either the person had congenital heart defects or was a long term drug user or whatever.

How many cases do you know of that have been attributed to anything other than liver, vascular or heart disease? If the answer is zero in 20,000 or even 1 in 20,000 then I suggest you may not be representing matters in as fair a light as possible.

2. You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful context.
So what you are saying here is that the autopsy’s carried out are meaningless?
Nick don’t get me wrong. I think its great you take such an extreme position as it focuses the debate. I just want to be sure of exactly how extreme your position is as i am struggling to represent the dangers of ibogaine use in my book rewrite as accurately as is possible withouyt allowing my own bias in, i.e. I would be happy to include some of what you write if I believed it were presented fairly but as yet I am not convinced.

3. This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users” against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

I am not sure you you are refering to here except to say that even you have to admit that the healing potential of ibogaine at times is startling and at other times lame. So its not about promoting false ideas of the dangers or safety of ibogaine. Its about saying: “hey, here is a potentially revolutionary drug which can work for some and not for others but be careful as it can be dangerous like all drugs. Look, here is a reasonable assessment of the risk.” Thats the position i am trying to move towards.

I have no ajenda whatsoever in people taking ibogaine even if it appears to the contrary. (Maybe I came across more zealously before. I am becoming more detached now with experience.)

My interest is to help with information so people can make an informed choice and know that one exists and also to record whatever observations I can that may be of use. If anyone decides to take it I consider that a matter between themselves and whatever form of God they ascribe too. I certainly hope that noone takes it who is not meant to as that only drags it down.

BTW thanks for the discussion.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 11:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

HI Nick,

Thanks for your reply. Regarding low dose therapy my gut feeling is that for a normal healthy adult the risk is probably approaching zero. Personally I push the position to start low with ibogaine as the body grows accustomed to it and one can also judge ones reaction better. I also take the position that its an individual decision and nobody should push another towards it regardless of how positive an influence it may be in certain cases. It’s definitely not for everyone and should not be for everyone.

Yet having said all that i recognise the huge potential ibogaine has for healing in conjunction with other modalities. Like aspirin or penicillin, there will be those who will have negative reactions leading to death. Yet society depends on these drugs and its the absence of ignorance that allows them to flourish.

Hence the reporting of risk should be carried out imo in as impartial a manner as possible. Otherwise newspapers etc will pick up any bias that suits their reporting and individuals will be left confused or misinformed.

With all due respect but I think your bias is evident. What harm does it do to expand your assessment of the dangers by putting it into more context?

Hi Lee,

As I wrote in reply to Howard, the word “context” here is the same as “bias.” I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body damage than for non drug users. If you can point me to some I would be very happy to hear it.

This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users” against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

Is it that the lack of knowledge on these deaths that gives you the bumps?

Yes, it is. Absolutely! If someone can explain just why some of these guys died it would certainly make me feel a lot happier about promoting ibogaine. As it is, I’m happy with 1 in a 100.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

If so does anyone have any useful information to put these deaths into proper context?

You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful context. You can make guesses statistically through examining their backgrounds but to do this you finally also have to demonstrate that the context you come up with is equally valid for each side. In this case it means that you need the same or similar number of recorded treatments on both drug users and non drug users. You don’t have this. You don’t have anywhere near this. Thus, this whole “context” issue, I submit, is merely the mind trying to distance itself from the thought that…..actually, ibogaine is potentially really quite a dangerous drug.

Don’t get me wrong. Ibogaine deaths scare me also. I think its a huge responsibility to provide for people in a high risk group and I take my hat off to them. I am not sure I could do it.

Again, this “high risk group” of yours has no statistical validity to it. It’s a misapplied criteria.

Nick

Nick, clearly there are dangers with ibogaine in the same way that there are dangers with all manner of things. That is why a potential user of ibogaine will seek imo to have as full and as complete knowledge as they can in order to find the safest route possible and to weigh up the odds of taking ibogaine vs the odds of surviving in their present lifestyle. Then an individual, if determined, can find their own way through the dangers rather than take pot luck. In that sense I applaud your more realistic assessment where it applies.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will happily change the wording.
Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart.

Hi Howard,

If I recall there were deaths associated with cardiac disorders not diagnosed until autopsy, despite some prior testing. I’m not 100% sure about this but to me it puts a different slant upon things if so.

I’m also generally concerned that not enough is really known about why some of these guys died to say that prior drug use was even an issue. The non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population may be out of the fatality chart but, to me, this by no means implies that ibogaine is likely safe for non-addict non-cardiac people for the following reasons – (i) the majority of recorded studies were done on those with drug use issues, (ii) dosage levels for drug use issues are higher generally, and (iii) too little is known about why these guys died.

If we had a lot of recorded treatments for those who didn’t use ibogaine for drug issues I could move from this position, for sure.

Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have to sort out different patient populations.

Well, I find that you come from more of an “ibogaine proponent” position than myself. You can fiddle about with stats and get them to mean all sorts of things – to me this by no means implies that ibogaine is safe. Generally, I find that some list members, quite naturally, do have an emotional investment in believing ibogaine to be fundamentally safe. Whilst this is useful to counterbalance the negative vested interests of some medical establishment people, at a personal level I find I also have to really look and ask myself – Do I really believe this drug is safe? Is enough really known and aren’t there plenty of warning signs?

Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I am not.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Nick

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: abeatty@mail2go.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 4:12:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is there any info/percentages on deaths in Bwiti initiaitions in Africa?
I wonder how many addicts take it once, successfully.
Many providers monitor this list. Maybe over time there could be unofficial
statistics put together through these peoples’ experience.
Andy

————————————————————
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Dr. Kamlet back from Houston
Date: September 10, 2005 at 3:19:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here is part of a Miami Herald article on Kamlet in Houston.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/12598501.htm

When a friend asked Jeff Kamlet, a Miami physician of internal medicine with more than 10 years of emergency room experience, if he could help organize an impromptu mission to help victims of Hurricane Katrina, he didn’t hesitate.

”I started making phone calls to other physicians, pharmacies in the area, sending e-mails and looking for donations,” said Kamlet, who worked with attorney and friend Herbert Cohen to put the mission together. “We needed to get all the necessary supplies and medicine in one day.”

By Saturday evening, a team was formed: Kamlet; his office manager Margo Kenyon; Harvey Frank, a chiropractor from Fort Lauderdale; David MacIvor, a former Special Forces medic with NATO from Orlando; and Richard Perlman, an emergency room physician at Hollywood Memorial. The group arranged for a private jet and two 18-wheeler trucks to transport more than $15,000 in prescription medicines, bandages, feminine hygiene products, antibiotics and water.

After arriving in Houston and maneuvering through checkpoints, the group met with disaster aid relief personnel, only to learn there were already enough physicians.

”We knew there were people who needed help out there,” Kamlet said.
A Red Cross representative said she knew of other places that needed medical assistance.
Their first stop was Iglesia de Dios, a little church 10 or 15 miles outside Houston. The team set up a triage area and began treating more than 200 people housed in the church. They saw people having heart problems who hadn’t taken their medicine in days, diabetics in need of insulin, pregnant mothers and children who needed first-aid care or antibiotics, Kamlet said.

Town by town, the ad hoc group made their way to about five or six different facilities. Kenyon and other team members said the 15-hour trip was emotionally and physically exhausting.
‘Two days felt like a week,’ she said. “I left there feeling like I wanted to do more.”

From: Beatrice Blue <beatriceblue@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] London
Date: September 10, 2005 at 2:21:46 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey everyone,

In London, just need a bit of help/support.  Any of you located here too?

Would really appreciate someone to talk to.

Thanks…
Beatrice

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: See Fu Wong <maomaofungow@AsiansRULE.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] removal
Date: September 10, 2005 at 12:36:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi can I be removed from the Ibogaine discussion group? too many emails computer explode.

Thanks.

 

Hundreds of Free Email Addresses
http://www.UltimateEmail.com

Free Email Greeting Cards
http://www.UltimateEcards.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 11:42:35 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt,

OK, thanks for that. What I was told about S was…. “She had previously complained of problems with her heart, breast, and uterus. Medical tests, conducted at the time, failed to reveal any problems.” If I recall, it was also refuted, by the same informant, that she had significant heart problems, but cannot recall for certain and have inadequate notes, I’m afraid. So, obviously something is not tying up, which is unfortunately often the case.

It’s really very hard with all this rumour stuff to establish just what is going on. I still hear the rumour that JW, who died during a session in London in early 2000, died from a stomach burst, which was not the case according to the inquest.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 10 September 2005 16:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

Nick
I know that H’s brother was a cocaine and heroin addict.  I also know that S had a congenital heart defect and had surgery as a child for that condition.
Matt
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:47 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Nick
From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 11:19:42 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick
I know that H’s brother was a cocaine and heroin addict.  I also know that S had a congenital heart defect and had surgery as a child for that condition.
Matt
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:47 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Nick
From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 11:03:18 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Are there any stats indicating how long norabogine/ibogaine remains in the body?  Maybe
Dr. Mash is basing the life of the patch on the answer to this?  Maybe she is testing to see whether
a small/large amount works best to subdue cravings after the initial ibogaine treatment?  Could be
that a constant source of ibogaine/noribogaine is the most effecient course of action to take?

ann
think@francomm.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Krista Vaughan” <krista.vaughan@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

I don’t understand much of anything Dr. Mash is doing, because what
she has said in the past is in direct conflict with the drug she is
trying to market, if noribogaine builds to toxic levels then how can
you sell noribogaine in a patch? More then that, Patrick has worked
for her for 6 years or something like that and I’m sure seen the data,
then went ahead and published ibogaine maintenance. I also don’t know
anyone but her using her doses on people or detoxing them before they
even take ibogaine. This is right back to everyone being off in their
own world and not agreeing on even the most basic things like science,
never mind aftercare or theories of how addiction works.

Question for Patrick is about maintenance, you are very good with
words, you don’t say it exactly but you make it sound like almost
everyone stops maintenance doses after 2 or 3 weeks and doesn’t do
anymore ibogaine for a while, is this the case?

KV

On 9/10/05, HSLotsof@aol.com <HSLotsof@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a
massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as
I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking
ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with
the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact
that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died.
Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using
groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend
to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t
introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more
at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug
issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is
inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of
data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge,
one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here
and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in
much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not
interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk
considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more
attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either
predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will
happily change the wording.

Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from
non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue
of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine
or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent
individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the
non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality
chart. Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have
to sort out different patient populations. Of course I may be missing a few
fatalities you are aware of that I am not.  Additionally, chemical dependent
substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the
general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed
for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an
anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might
be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical
study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis
and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no
way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be
informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on
Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it.
Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning
about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of
over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA
approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

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From: “Rick Strcat” <rickstrcat@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 10:49:07 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 00:39:35 EDT

In a message dated 9/9/05 11:29:27 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

> As I understand it, a big reason why low-dose treatments didn’t get looked
> at so much before was because of Dr Mash’s hypothesis, from the late 90s,
> that they could cause dangerous levels of nor-ibogaine to accumulate in the
> body. This was certainly her case against stepped dose administrations. From
> what I can gather, it seems it’s not regarded as much of an issue now.
> Perhaps someone else has more concrete information.
>

I don’t think that is the reality in any way.   First, in the early 1960s my
worked included dose studies of 10 mg – 750 mg (total doses) or 0.14 – 19
mg/kg. I believe this was published in my chapter in the Proceedings for the First
International Ibogaine Conference <
http://www.doraweiner.org/alexanderlotsof.html>.   In the lower dose range, total doses of 10 mg – 50 mg, doses were
administered for a many as seven continuous days.  I did not publicize these
doses as they were not effective in treating substance use disorders with
associated opioid dependence phenomena and were generally discontinued after five or
so days by the persons taking them do to the minor discomfort that Patrick
describes in his paper published in MAPS.

Thanks for posting this.  Still, it would have been interesting to see the results of continuing this dosage for 3 months, 6 months, 9 months … to get a better sense of whether the accumulation of noribogaine over prolonged periods could produce therapeutic results in these cases.  This also raises some questions about what exactly is meant by “low dosage” – are there metrics other than mg or mg/kg that might be more useful for defining low, intermediate or high doses?

As for Deborah Mash’s noribogaine runup theory, two things.   1) I don’t
believed she believed in it enough to publish it and 2) I don’t know any providers
who listen to what she says in terms of dosing.   The reason you have more
low dose therapy and publishing of it is because there are more providers, more
patients, more ibogaine, more discussion among ibogaine providers and the very
human attribute of experimentation. And, don’t forget, the Africans were
using low doses of T. iboga before anyone ever heard of Howard Lotsof or Deborah
Mash.   Also possibly one would have second thoughts about publishing material
indicating noribogaine toxicity when one hopes to develop the substance as a
medication.   All of which is understandable.   There have been oral reports
indicating that cardiac aberrations occur at the point when ibogaine is
converted to noribogaine.   However, it was unclear whether the prolonged QT waves
that were reported were due to the conversation of ibogaine to noribogaine or to
noribogaine itself.

Howard

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeź Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 8:07:14 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 10 September 2005 11:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

HI Nick,

Thanks for your reply. Regarding low dose therapy my gut feeling is that for a normal healthy adult the risk is probably approaching zero. Personally I push the position to start low with ibogaine as the body grows accustomed to it and one can also judge ones reaction better. I also take the position that its an individual decision and nobody should push another towards it regardless of how positive an influence it may be in certain cases. It’s definitely not for everyone and should not be for everyone.

Yet having said all that i recognise the huge potential ibogaine has for healing in conjunction with other modalities. Like aspirin or penicillin, there will be those who will have negative reactions leading to death. Yet society depends on these drugs and its the absence of ignorance that allows them to flourish.

Hence the reporting of risk should be carried out imo in as impartial a manner as possible. Otherwise newspapers etc will pick up any bias that suits their reporting and individuals will be left confused or misinformed.

With all due respect but I think your bias is evident. What harm does it do to expand your assessment of the dangers by putting it into more context?

Hi Lee,

As I wrote in reply to Howard, the word “context” here is the same as “bias.” I submit there is no valid basis on which to currently state that ibogaine is more dangerous for drug users without significant body damage than for non drug users. If you can point me to some I would be very happy to hear it.

This whole “context” issue, which I assume is that of “drug users” against “non drug users,” is purely an arbitrary mental division of the information available and one which is inevitably highly biased as the majority of recorded treatments have been carried out on drug users. Statistically, it is as weak as fuck. Thus, I ask, what compels individuals to assert that this is a valid criteria to distinguish ibogaine risk groups through? Inherent bias towards ibogaine, basically. OK, fair enough. Some people may have a considerable investment in believing ibogaine to be some wondrous healing balm, and will do pretty much anything to hold onto this belief in the face of rising evidence that there are significant risks involved. That’s their issue. I like to think that I don’t.

Is it that the lack of knowledge on these deaths that gives you the bumps?

Yes, it is. Absolutely! If someone can explain just why some of these guys died it would certainly make me feel a lot happier about promoting ibogaine. As it is, I’m happy with 1 in a 100.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

If so does anyone have any useful information to put these deaths into proper context?

You mean, create an arbitrary mental division with no basis in statistical reality through which they may be discounted? Lee, if you don’t know WHY people are dying you can’t create a meaningful context. You can make guesses statistically through examining their backgrounds but to do this you finally also have to demonstrate that the context you come up with is equally valid for each side. In this case it means that you need the same or similar number of recorded treatments on both drug users and non drug users. You don’t have this. You don’t have anywhere near this. Thus, this whole “context” issue, I submit, is merely the mind trying to distance itself from the thought that…..actually, ibogaine is potentially really quite a dangerous drug.

Don’t get me wrong. Ibogaine deaths scare me also. I think its a huge responsibility to provide for people in a high risk group and I take my hat off to them. I am not sure I could do it.

Again, this “high risk group” of yours has no statistical validity to it. It’s a misapplied criteria.

Nick

Nick, clearly there are dangers with ibogaine in the same way that there are dangers with all manner of things. That is why a potential user of ibogaine will seek imo to have as full and as complete knowledge as they can in order to find the safest route possible and to weigh up the odds of taking ibogaine vs the odds of surviving in their present lifestyle. Then an individual, if determined, can find their own way through the dangers rather than take pot luck. In that sense I applaud your more realistic assessment where it applies.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will happily change the wording.
Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart.

Hi Howard,

If I recall there were deaths associated with cardiac disorders not diagnosed until autopsy, despite some prior testing. I’m not 100% sure about this but to me it puts a different slant upon things if so.

I’m also generally concerned that not enough is really known about why some of these guys died to say that prior drug use was even an issue. The non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population may be out of the fatality chart but, to me, this by no means implies that ibogaine is likely safe for non-addict non-cardiac people for the following reasons – (i) the majority of recorded studies were done on those with drug use issues, (ii) dosage levels for drug use issues are higher generally, and (iii) too little is known about why these guys died.

If we had a lot of recorded treatments for those who didn’t use ibogaine for drug issues I could move from this position, for sure.

Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have to sort out different patient populations.

Well, I find that you come from more of an “ibogaine proponent” position than myself. You can fiddle about with stats and get them to mean all sorts of things – to me this by no means implies that ibogaine is safe. Generally, I find that some list members, quite naturally, do have an emotional investment in believing ibogaine to be fundamentally safe. Whilst this is useful to counterbalance the negative vested interests of some medical establishment people, at a personal level I find I also have to really look and ask myself – Do I really believe this drug is safe? Is enough really known and aren’t there plenty of warning signs?

Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I am not.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Nick

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 7:43:32 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 11:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/10/05 5:48:07 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Hi Nick,

Well I Always send persons asking about ibogaine to your site so they cannot deny being informed about ibogaine related adverse events.  While I do think you overstate the fatality issue a bit, when taken in comparison to most other sites it adds balance and provides important information.  When I say overstate I am not talking necessarily about the facts but only their presentation.  But, once again, you add balance.

Best regards and thanks.

Howard

Hi Howard,

Well, let’s hope you are right and I am overstating! Time, I guess, will tell.

Nick

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Rehnquist om drugs
Date: September 10, 2005 at 7:03:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There’s no sign that [Rehnquist] wasn’t keeping up with his work” over the period he was taking Placidyl.
Get the fuck outta here. I took a lot of Placidyl myself and I can tell you one thing right now. He might have kept up with his work but he sure as hell didn’t remember doing it. One green meanie and most people are out for the count. That’s 750 mg for those of you too young to remember these knock out pills. Red ones were 500, and the little orange ones were 200. I can still remember what they taste like when they start to hit you. I even shot one once. ……………And I shoudn’t have done that. I thought I was going to die. I even read in the PDR to not ever try and do that because they had some kind of oil in them. Did it anyway, didn’t have any Dilaudids or even any fuckin’ codiene that day. 1976 what a freakin’ year.   Randy

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy – low dose approach
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:54:17 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Rick,

My own belief is that starting with low doses allows the body to acclimatise to the presence of ibogaine in the system as well as helps establish dose levels of an individual. In that respect I think its much safer way to be introduced to ibogaine.

Your question is important and I would be curious if anyone can answer the question as to why treatment for dependency cannot be carried out starting on low doses? If it can then maybe the need for providers would be less?

Lee

Rick Strcat <rickstrcat@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: Lee Albert

>Quote from your site: As of the time of writing, it has to be said that
>there is simply a flat risk that you will die if you take a significant
>dose of ibogaine (15mg/kilo or above), possibly of the order of a one in a
>hundred chance.
>
>However, I would think that you would be painting a more accurate picture
>if you were to state clearly that this risk of 1 in a 100 applies to those
>within this high risk group and that as yet there is no real figure for
>those outside this group, i.e. an averagely healthy person who may be
>considering using ibogaine for spiritual purposes who does not have
>cardiac, vascular or liver problems.

Also, as far as I know, there have been no deaths recorded from a low-dose
ibogaine treatments (anyone with conflicting data, please correct this).
Given that, I don’t understand why low-dose therapy – or least therapies
starting out with low-doses haven’t become more widely used. There are only
2 reasons I can think of:

1] Ibogaine therapy has been done in a certain way that’s worked for many
people and that way has become a convention even though – or maybe because –
potentially safer variations on this convention remain untried.

2] The extra supervied time it would take to provide initial test &
acclimation doses would increase the cost of the therapy.

Are there other reasons?

>You could also add that within this high risk group had the 100 persons not
>been treated with ibogaine the death rate may have actually been higher.
>
>I am making this point as I don’t feel you are representing the situation
>fairly and perhaps unintentionally, or without realising, are introducing
>your own bias. In the same way Ekki’s new site may pass this bias on
>unintentionally. This actually harms the cause of ibogaine imo.
>
>Lee
>
>Nick Sandberg wrote:
>
>
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
> > Sent: 07 September 2005 09:06
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
> >
> >
> > hello list, hello Nick
> >
> >
> > quote from http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/info.htm
> > “As of the time of writing, it has to be said that there is simply a
> > flat risk that you will die if you take a significant dose of ibogaine
> > (15mg/kilo or above), possibly of the order of a one in a hundred
> > chance. ”
> >
> > is it really 1 in a hundred? is this number meant for addicts or anyone
> > looking for treatment and is this number true for people who did proper
> > medical testing before?
> > at the moment, are there 6 or 7 known ibogaine related deaths in the
> > western world?
> >
>
>Hi Ekki,
>
>I wanted to get across to people the very real risks of using ibogaine. I
>believe there are currently 7 or 8 documented deaths, I don’t want to list
>them all here or go into that stuff. From contacts, mostly in the US,
>(people who also want to remain private) I’m reckoning on at least the same
>again, maybe double, maybe even more, undocumented. This is totally
>hearsay,
>but that’s how it is. So, possibly we’re looking at 20+. At one in a
>hundred
>that means about 20 out of 2000, which I thought was maybe how many
>treatments might realistically have been done in the last 5-10 years.
>
>Basically, it’s an unbelievably unexact bit of calculating and anyone is
>welcome to tear it to shreds but, like I said, I wanted people to
>appreciate
>that (i) ibogaine is a lot more risky to take than better known
>psychoactives and (ii) it’s clear it’s more dangerous than we believed
>about
>5 years ago.
>
> >
> >
> > another quote (last § on http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/info.htm):
> >
> > “- If you are thinking of taking ibogaine for personal development and
> > haven’t yet been involved in proper therapy (therapy where there’s an
> > open admission by the individual of the presence of emotional issues),
> > be aware that you may be being attracted to a “quick fix” strategy that
> > avoids really dealing with deeper issues. If this is the case, ibogaine
> > could possibly make things worse. For some, using psychoactive
> > substances can invoke disturbing reactions as the mind’s defences
> > struggle to keep down rising repressed material. Drugs like ibogaine,
> > ketamine, LSD and MDMA (Ecstasy), have been used in the past by
> > therapists, but only as one component of an overall therapeutic
> > strategy. Using the drug out of this context could cause more harm than
> > good.”
> >
> > do we know of people who used ibogaine for self-development without
> > proper therapy and thus got harmed? are there any non-addicts on the
> > list who feel ibogaine did them more harm than good because of lack of
> > therapeutical embedding?
>
>I know at least one guy, for sure, here in the UK. He’s still pretty much
>convinced ibogaine fucked his mind up. I’ve had plenty of chats to guys
>who,
>it’s clear to me, failed to adequately process the experience and who I’m
>pretty sure would have been a lot better off with regular therapy. Usually
>twenty-something males.
>
> >
> > if someone wants to do ibogaine as a component of therapy, how do you
> > do that when hardly any therapist knows about ibogaine or incorporates
> > it?
> >
>
>Well, people trained in Transpersonal Psychology, of whom there are more
>and
>more in the UK, could be highly suitable. Also, to be honest, any therapist
>with a fairly open mind. Plenty have done plenty of drugs. I doubt if you’d
>find so easy someone who’d come out and say “Go take ibogaine” – it’s a big
>position to take, but you could still relate to a therapist what happened
>in
>the experience. Reading people’s experiences, half of it’s classic Jungian
>or Freudian stuff. I think a lot of therapists, particularly those familiar
>with dream interpretation, would be at home with it. Probably enjoy it.
>
>Again, this is not exact science, but I figure this is a reasonable
>accurate
>position, being myself in the therapy game.
>
>Nick
>
> >
> > thanks
> > ekki
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=—————————————————————
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>
>
>
>
>Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
>year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
>www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
>
>
>My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
>interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
>already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:44:58 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Nick,

Thanks for your reply. Regarding low dose therapy my gut feeling is that for a normal healthy adult the risk is probably approaching zero. Personally I push the position to start low with ibogaine as the body grows accustomed to it and one can also judge ones reaction better. I also take the position that its an individual decision and nobody should push another towards it regardless of how positive an influence it may be in certain cases. It’s definitely not for everyone and should not be for everyone.

Yet having said all that i recognise the huge potential ibogaine has for healing in conjunction with other modalities. Like aspirin or penicillin, there will be those who will have negative reactions leading to death. Yet society depends on these drugs and its the absence of ignorance that allows them to flourish.

Hence the reporting of risk should be carried out imo in as impartial a manner as possible. Otherwise newspapers etc will pick up any bias that suits their reporting and individuals will be left confused or misinformed.

With all due respect but I think your bias is evident. What harm does it do to expand your assessment of the dangers by putting it into more context?

Is it that the lack of knowledge on these deaths that gives you the bumps?

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

If so does anyone have any useful information to put these deaths into proper context?

Don’t get me wrong. Ibogaine deaths scare me also. I think its a huge responsibility to provide for people in a high risk group and I take my hat off to them. I am not sure I could do it.

Nick, clearly there are dangers with ibogaine in the same way that there are dangers with all manner of things. That is why a potential user of ibogaine will seek imo to have as full and as complete knowledge as they can in order to find the safest route possible and to weigh up the odds of taking ibogaine vs the odds of surviving in their present lifestyle. Then an individual, if determined, can find their own way through the dangers rather than take pot luck. In that sense I applaud your more realistic assessment where it applies.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will happily change the wording.
Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart.

Hi Howard,

If I recall there were deaths associated with cardiac disorders not diagnosed until autopsy, despite some prior testing. I’m not 100% sure about this but to me it puts a different slant upon things if so.

I’m also generally concerned that not enough is really known about why some of these guys died to say that prior drug use was even an issue. The non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population may be out of the fatality chart but, to me, this by no means implies that ibogaine is likely safe for non-addict non-cardiac people for the following reasons – (i) the majority of recorded studies were done on those with drug use issues, (ii) dosage levels for drug use issues are higher generally, and (iii) too little is known about why these guys died.

If we had a lot of recorded treatments for those who didn’t use ibogaine for drug issues I could move from this position, for sure.

Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have to sort out different patient populations.

Well, I find that you come from more of an “ibogaine proponent” position than myself. You can fiddle about with stats and get them to mean all sorts of things – to me this by no means implies that ibogaine is safe. Generally, I find that some list members, quite naturally, do have an emotional investment in believing ibogaine to be fundamentally safe. Whilst this is useful to counterbalance the negative vested interests of some medical establishment people, at a personal level I find I also have to really look and ask myself – Do I really believe this drug is safe? Is enough really known and aren’t there plenty of warning signs?

Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I am not.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Nick

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liberty
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:35:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/10/2005 3:13:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, digital@phantom.com writes:
also have an
exclusive preview of Eminem’s new CD, which is inspired entirely by
Bible verses.  Being based on our Lord’s Old Testament, of course, it
will present no discernable departure from his previous misogynistic
and bloodthirsty rants.”
–Betty Bowers
Wait a minute. How is Marshall going to put bible verses in rap mixed with lines like “how you going to breast feed me Mom, you aint got no tits?” I just had to say that, ‘couse I love that line so much. But I would think it’s a departure from what he was doing. SEEEEEEEE everybody grows and changes. Maybe he took Ibogaine for his addiction and saw God.   “I didn’t mean to give you mushrooms girl”    (Eminem)       Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] the big picture
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:22:35 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Talking of the big picture this came over from a reporters and journalists list.

http://www.boohbah.com/zone.html

If you keep trying to get it to do something eventually it will.

Howard

From: Vivienne Elanta <vivienneelanta@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liberty
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:15:06 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Patrick, that made me smile but no matter how I try to take a look at
the big picture, I am not as open minded or whatever it is that you, Dave
Hunter and everyone else who has started putting the symbol of chaos on
everything is.

Maybe laughing is the only thing that makes the darkness go away but I find
that what is happening in the states is frightening. More frightening is that
Tony Blair has his lips attached to Bush’s arse and with Marc Emery it almost
appears as if Canada has joined the UK in wanted to be a sovereign state under
America.

Your country is terrorizing the world and it doesn’t look as if anything will
get better before the states start world war 3, instead of the Jews this time
your country has the blacks and poor. Next in the camps will be the drug users,
except I think you’re used to that treatment already.

Blessed be
Vivienne Elanta

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

On Sep 10, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Sjonnygee . wrote:

I didn’t post these quotes frivolously – Beyond the disaster in New
Orleans there is rot and it will continue.

Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did
not vote for
him. Why is he there? And I tell you this morning that he’s in the
White House
because God put him there for a time such as this: Lt Gen William
Boykin,
speaking of G. W. Bush, New York Times, 17 October 2003

“Those who vote in elections decide nothing; those who count the
votes decide everything.”
–Joseph Stalin

God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and
unshakeable
faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany. Hermann
Goering, speaking
of Hitler

“Naturally the common people don’t want war.  But, after all, it is
the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always
a simple matter to drag the people along.  All you have to do is tell
them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack
of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.  It works the same
in any country.”
–Hermann Goering

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to
religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they
consider
god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move
against him,
believing that he has the gods on his side: Aristotle

“Anyone watching MTV will tell you that Marshall Mathers, also known
as Eminem, Slim Shady and ‘Defendant,’ has broken out like
psoriasis.  After listening to his angry tirades filled with juvenile
angst and contrived mayhem, I expected a rough man to saunter into my
suite at the Four Seasons for our interview.  I was not prepared for
the fey, timid little boy who has, no doubt, grown up under a barrage
of taunts and insults (those directed at his ‘look’ would certainly
fall comfortably under the expanding heading of ‘constructive
criticism’).  It is with guarded jubilation that I discovered that
this trailer-tenor has become a born-again Christian.  I also have an
exclusive preview of Eminem’s new CD, which is inspired entirely by
Bible verses.  Being based on our Lord’s Old Testament, of course, it
will present no discernable departure from his previous misogynistic
and bloodthirsty rants.”
–Betty Bowers

http://www.bettybowers.com/eminem.html

“Suppose you were an idiot … And suppose you were a member of
Congress… But I repeat myself.”
–Mark Twain

Patrick

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Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Rehnquist om drugs
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:16:05 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Chief Justice Rehnquist’s Drug Habit
The man in full.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Friday, Sept. 9, 2005, at 2:28 PM PT

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125906/

The very model of a chief justice
As we usher the 16th chief justice of the United States to his celestial reward, let us remember him in full. He labored successfully to return power to the states, treated colleagues with warmth and respect, was said to be a gregarious boss, and, inspired by a judge’s costume he saw in the performance of a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta, added four silly gold stripes to each sleeve of his judicial robe.
And for the nine years between 1972 and the end of 1981, William Rehnquist consumed great quantities of the potent sedative-hypnotic Placidyl. So great was Rehnquist’s Placidyl habit, dependency, or addiction—depending on how you regard long-term drug use—that by the last quarter of 1981 he began slurring his speech in public, became tongue-tied while pronouncing long words, and sometimes had trouble finishing his thoughts.
The parade of news stories and TV segments that followed Rehnquist’s death made little mention of his affair with Placidyl. New York Times Supreme Court reporter Linda Greenhouse offered more than any reporter, but still just 57 words near the end of a 6,100-word story. The Boston Globe made a two-sentence mention. The Washington Post story about his death ignored this chapter of his life, as did the Los Angeles Times.

(Slate can’t brag on this score. David Plotz’s 1998 “Assessment” and last week’s Rehnquist retrospective-obituaries by Dahlia Lithwick, Walter Dellinger, and Richard W. Garnett avoided the topic.)
Obviously the lede of the chief’s obituary should not have read, “William H. Rehnquist, a man with a jones for Placidyl, died yesterday. He also served as chief justice of the United States for 19 years.” But the reluctance to explore this part of Rehnquist’s life at any length illustrates a general rule of journalism: Most obituarists prefer the airbrush to the sharpened pen when it comes to the famous and powerful. In Rehnquist’s case, reporters can’t make the “I was on deadline” excuse. The chief justice gave generous advance notice of his impending death for months, and novella-length pieces like the Greenhouse obit were hardly banged out over Labor Day weekend.
Recounting Rehnquist’s Placidyl story isn’t just a bit of journalistic blood sport at the expense of a dead man. His unorthodox drug consumption first made headlines in 1982, when the Washington Post (owned by the same corporation that owns Slate) broke the story, when he entered the hospital to get off the stuff. The Placidyl episode was also news in 1986, when President Ronald Reagan upgraded Rehnquist from associate justice by nominating him as chief. A confidential report on Rehnquist’s medical history prepared for the Senate Judiciary Committee, which contained more details about his habit, was leaked to the press.
The Rehnquist story deserves a third airing today if only to illustrate the ugly double standards that excuse extreme drug use by the powerful, especially if their connection is a prescribing doctor, and condemns to draconian prison terms the guy who purchases his drugs on the street. Reviewing Rehnquist’s tale one more time also demonstrates the reluctance of the Senate—and some members of the press—to grade the mental competency of judges and judicial nominees.
The 1986 medical report on Rehnquist described him as seriously “dependent” on Placidyl from 1977 to 1981. He often consumed three month’s worth of the drug in one month before requesting more from Dr. Freeman H. Cary, the attending physician to Congress, who prescribed it. Anonymous sources told the Post that Cary first prescribed Placidyl to Rehnquist in 1971 to help him sleep through his severe back pains, but “Cary reportedly told the FBI that Rehnquist had taken it before.”
What is Placidyl? Some news clips, such as the Boston Globe obit, call it a painkiller. Yes, it’s a painkiller—in the sense that a fistfull of Ambien is a pain killer. You take it and it knocks you out. Placidyl is a “sedative-hypnotic” developed to help insomniacs sleep. See this period advertisement for Placidyl and this one, too. The abuse potential of Placidyl has always been rated as high: An associate professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University told the Post in 1986 that it was “a strong drug I would use only under very exceptional circumstance” and that he wouldn’t give it to people for more than one or two weeks. He added that it shouldn’t be given to patients who suffered both pain and insomnia.
The standard dose for adults is 500 milligrams, taken at bedtime. Rehnquist initially took 200 milligrams daily but by 1981 was taking 1,500 milligrams a day. Increasing dosage indicates drug dependency, the Johns Hopkins professor explained. For more about Placidyl’s potency, see this “product information” from 1971 distributed by the Abbott Laboratories, the manufacturer in the early 1970s, and reprinted in Licit and Illicit Drugs by Edward M. Brecher.
After the Post broke the story about Rehnquist’s drug habit, other news organizations reported that his “health problem” had been apparent to Supreme Court observers for three months before he was hospitalized on Dec. 27, 1981, (UPI) and that “reporters and lawyers at the Court” had notice Rehnquist’s speaking problem “in recent months” (New York Times).
According to a Jan. 4, 1982, New York Times account, Rehnquist sought help with the drug in December 1981 because it no longer relieved his pain. He entered George Washington University Hospital on Dec. 27. According to the physician spokesman for the hospital he suffered “disturbances in mental clarity, characterized by distorted perceptions,” as doctors weaned him off the drug. The spokesman added that after his Placidyl was cut off, Rehnquist began ”hearing things and seeing things that other people did not hear and see.” The doctors took his dose back up before re-weaning him. By mid-January, Rehnquist returned to the bench.
When Rehnquist’s drug problem became an issue during the 1986 confirmation hearings, Sen. Orrin G. Hatch, R-Utah, defended Rehnquist in a Post story, saying he got into trouble with Placidyl because he was “a very compliant patient” who “followed the advice” of his doctors. Ah, yes, one of the most brilliant jurists of his time was the victim of his rotten doctors for almost a decade! Are we to believe that one of the court’s sharpest minds never availed himself of a Physicians’ Desk Reference for independent medical information, or in any way tried to educate himself about the drug he was taking in larger and larger quantities? The Senate Judiciary Committee asked Rehnquist no questions about his drug use, and he was, of course, confirmed as chief justice. The debate over whether Rehnquist’s drug use might be relevant to his fitness to serve as chief never got started.
The Rehnquist narrative presented here owes much to legal scholar David J. Garrow’s “Mental Decrepitude on the U.S. Supreme Court: The Historical Case for a 28th Amendment,” a 50,000-word article in the fall 2000 issue of the University of Chicago Law Review. Garrow believes a constitutional amendment should be passed forcing judges to retire at 75, and he inquires about the mental competency of a number of Supreme Court justices, including Rehnquist and Thurgood Marshall. Most court observers now concede that Marshall had lost much of his hearing and half his bag of marbles by his final years of service on the court. Garrow blames the Supreme Court press corps for not aggressively covering either such mental slippage or Rehnquist’s “publicly visible struggle with deleterious overmedication.”
One fascinating aspect of Rehnquist’s drug habit is that nobody has ever demonstrated that his performance ever flagged during his decade-long binge. USA Today Supreme Court correspondent Joan Biskupic didn’t cover the court during Rehnquist’s drug days, but in examining the papers of justices Brennan, Powell, Marshall, and Blackmun, she says, “There’s no sign that [Rehnquist] wasn’t keeping up with his work” over the period he was taking Placidyl.
Tony Mauro, who covers the court for American Lawyer Media’s Legal Times, says Rehnquist’s speech problem manifested itself just as he joined the beat. “I do remember him speaking oddly,” he says, but he didn’t give it much thought. “In retrospect, I should have. A lot of us [reporters] felt that way.”
A defense can be made for not including the Placidyl saga in Rehnquist’s obituaries. As the Washington Post Supreme Court correspondent Charles Lane points out, his story was not intended to be “a complete biography.” Lane has written about Rehnquist’s drug use in the context of his thyroid cancer.
But am I unfair to link the reluctance of journalists to zoom in for a close-up on a dead person’s warts to a general deference to authority or, in the case of Rehnquist, a class bias that predisposes them to look past his drug habit as purely a medical problem? I think not. This was a watershed event in Rehnquist’s life. Did the experience—being dazed on drugs, humiliated in the press, getting off Placidyl—contribute to his jurisprudence? How could it not have? Supreme Court correspondents, start your word processors.
******
Before you send e-mail, don’t even think of accusing me of being a Rehnquist hata: If you were to Venn-diagram my judicial philosophy (such as it is) against that of Rehnquist’s and Justice Ruth Ginsburg’s, I’d overlap with Rehnquist. That e-mail is slate.pressbox@gmail.com.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 6:06:51 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/10/05 5:48:07 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Hi Nick,

Well I Always send persons asking about ibogaine to your site so they cannot deny being informed about ibogaine related adverse events.  While I do think you overstate the fatality issue a bit, when taken in comparison to most other sites it adds balance and provides important information.  When I say overstate I am not talking necessarily about the facts but only their presentation.  But, once again, you add balance.

Best regards and thanks.

Howard

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 5:46:39 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will happily change the wording.
Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart.

Hi Howard,

If I recall there were deaths associated with cardiac disorders not diagnosed until autopsy, despite some prior testing. I’m not 100% sure about this but to me it puts a different slant upon things if so.

I’m also generally concerned that not enough is really known about why some of these guys died to say that prior drug use was even an issue. The non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population may be out of the fatality chart but, to me, this by no means implies that ibogaine is likely safe for non-addict non-cardiac people for the following reasons – (i) the majority of recorded studies were done on those with drug use issues, (ii) dosage levels for drug use issues are higher generally, and (iii) too little is known about why these guys died.

If we had a lot of recorded treatments for those who didn’t use ibogaine for drug issues I could move from this position, for sure.

Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have to sort out different patient populations.

Well, I find that you come from more of an “ibogaine proponent” position than myself. You can fiddle about with stats and get them to mean all sorts of things – to me this by no means implies that ibogaine is safe. Generally, I find that some list members, quite naturally, do have an emotional investment in believing ibogaine to be fundamentally safe. Whilst this is useful to counterbalance the negative vested interests of some medical establishment people, at a personal level I find I also have to really look and ask myself – Do I really believe this drug is safe? Is enough really known and aren’t there plenty of warning signs?

Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I am not.

I recall the near death of H’s brother in Holland, who required hospitalization, and S, in Germany, who died. I believed neither were using ibogaine for drug problems, though I haven’t been able to get specific information here. There were rumours of health issues in the latter, as I recall, but I was told she cleared medical. I’m also still a little concerned about X in France, who seemed to disappear off the face of the internet earth after a second high ibogaine dose “for spiritual reasons.” There are more rumours but, of course, who knows about these things.

Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

Well, to be a little facetious, I wouldn’t consider the FDA to be a useful body from whom to draw statistics on drug safety though I do appreciate that they are the legally appointed one. The drugs business is a racket. There is however a deeper issue here – Fundamentally, I take a personal position and write what I consider responsible on the basis of how I personally weigh up the information available. Mine is a personal website, it does not represent any other body. Thus, I can’t really say that ibogaine is safe because a legally appointed body approves medications with similar fatality rates, if I don’t believe it myself. And I don’t.

Nick

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 4:59:54 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply. Thinking back, I recalled Dr Mash’s presentations in the UK in late 1999 only really attacked the stepped dose regimes. I don’t believe she mentioned low doses given over a longer period. She did do a presentation with a graph depicting noribogaine levels in the body over time of someone being treated with a single administration of ibogaine and with someone being treated with multiple smaller administrations over, I think, a 24 or 48 hour period. Her hypothesis was that in the latter case they could get to dangerous levels. I don’t know where she stands with this theory nowadays.

Anyway, with low dosage regimes I guess it’s not such an issue. Is there now any more data on noribogaine toxicity or retention in the body?

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 10 September 2005 05:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy

In a message dated 9/9/05 11:29:27 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

As I understand it, a big reason why low-dose treatments didn’t get looked
at so much before was because of Dr Mash’s hypothesis, from the late 90s,
that they could cause dangerous levels of nor-ibogaine to accumulate in the
body. This was certainly her case against stepped dose administrations. From
what I can gather, it seems it’s not regarded as much of an issue now.
Perhaps someone else has more concrete information.

I don’t think that is the reality in any way.  First, in the early 1960s my worked included dose studies of 10 mg – 750 mg (total doses) or 0.14 – 19 mg/kg. I believe this was published in my chapter in the Proceedings for the First International Ibogaine Conference <http://www.doraweiner.org/alexanderlotsof.html>.  In the lower dose range, total doses of 10 mg – 50 mg, doses were administered for a many as seven continuous days. I did not publicize these doses as they were not effective in treating substance use disorders with associated opioid dependence phenomena and were generally discontinued after five or so days by the persons taking them do to the minor discomfort that Patrick describes in his paper published in MAPS.

As for Deborah Mash’s noribogaine runup theory, two things.  1) I don’t believed she believed in it enough to publish it and 2) I don’t know any providers who listen to what she says in terms of dosing.  The reason you have more low dose therapy and publishing of it is because there are more providers, more patients, more ibogaine, more discussion among ibogaine providers and the very human attribute of experimentation. And, don’t forget, the Africans were using low doses of T. iboga before anyone ever heard of Howard Lotsof or Deborah Mash.  Also possibly one would have second thoughts about publishing material indicating noribogaine toxicity when one hopes to develop the substance as a medication.  All of which is understandable.  There have been oral reports indicating that cardiac aberrations occur at the point when ibogaine is converted to noribogaine.  However, it was unclear whether the prolonged QT waves that were reported were due to the conversation of ibogaine to noribogaine or to noribogaine itself.

Howard

From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liberty
Date: September 10, 2005 at 3:08:30 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sep 10, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Sjonnygee . wrote:

I didn’t post these quotes frivolously – Beyond the disaster in New Orleans there is rot and it will continue.

Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not vote for
him. Why is he there? And I tell you this morning that he’s in the White House
because God put him there for a time such as this: Lt Gen William Boykin,
speaking of G. W. Bush, New York Times, 17 October 2003

“Those who vote in elections decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything.”
–Joseph Stalin

God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable
faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany. Hermann Goering, speaking
of Hitler

“Naturally the common people don’t want war.  But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along.  All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.  It works the same in any country.”
–Hermann Goering

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him,
believing that he has the gods on his side: Aristotle

“Anyone watching MTV will tell you that Marshall Mathers, also known as Eminem, Slim Shady and ‘Defendant,’ has broken out like psoriasis.  After listening to his angry tirades filled with juvenile angst and contrived mayhem, I expected a rough man to saunter into my suite at the Four Seasons for our interview.  I was not prepared for the fey, timid little boy who has, no doubt, grown up under a barrage of taunts and insults (those directed at his ‘look’ would certainly fall comfortably under the expanding heading of ‘constructive criticism’).  It is with guarded jubilation that I discovered that this trailer-tenor has become a born-again Christian.  I also have an exclusive preview of Eminem’s new CD, which is inspired entirely by Bible verses.  Being based on our Lord’s Old Testament, of course, it will present no discernable departure from his previous misogynistic and bloodthirsty rants.”
–Betty Bowers

http://www.bettybowers.com/eminem.html

“Suppose you were an idiot … And suppose you were a member of Congress… But I repeat myself.”
–Mark Twain

Patrick

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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 2:41:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Sep 10, 2005, at 1:28 AM, Krista Vaughan wrote:

Question for Patrick is about maintenance, you are very good with
words, you don’t say it exactly but you make it sound like almost
everyone stops maintenance doses after 2 or 3 weeks and doesn’t do
anymore ibogaine for a while, is this the case?

No.  There are opiate/opioid dependent individuals who have been doing “ibogaine maintenance” concomitantly with narcotic analgesics for periods of time that are longer than 2 years at this point.  And … that’s only the people I’m aware of.  There are also “drug-free” persons who have been doing maintenance for longer than this.

For what it’s worth, the French marketed low-doses of ibogaine under the tradename “Lambarene” between 1939 until it was pulled in 1966.  They were administering it in very low doses as an anti-depressant/anti-fatigue agent (amongst a few other, less publicized uses).  It was NOT being marketed as a cure-all for junkies.  Although, I’d posit it is entirely possible various individuals at the time were aware of this neat side-effect.

People I have actual data on, appear to have liver enzymes within normal ranges; blood pressure and pulse are not abnormally elevated (i.e., everything is within 3-9% of where they were at prior to doing ibogaine maintenance).

There ARE side-effects.  Most people find them too uncomfortable to continue for extended periods.

Corollary: Most People is not equal to All People.

I do not have anything else to say about this topic at present, except: these are anecdotal results.  If you choose to self-experiment, understand that you are way the fuck out there, past where any published human research ends, and just because there are a handful of other individuals who are already doing this, with no apparent MAJOR side-effects — like, fer instance: death.  Keeling over, dropping dead, going buh-bye, would be considered an adverse event — doesn’t mean it’s safe or a good idea.

All any of it means is: yes, it’s possible.

Would I recommend it?  Fuck no.

It is also entirely possible that you will die.  Of course it’s possible you’ll walk out of your house and get run over by a garbage truck tomorrow, or shot in the head the next time you try to cop.  <Shrug>  Shit happens.  No matter how the race is run, it always ends the same; 6 feet under.

Alcohol, cigarettes, and half the shit you’ll find on the shelves of your local deli (or corner bodega if ya prefer) have a list of adverse side-effects 50 pages long.  This doesn’t seem to dissuade many people from using ’em.  For that matter, if ya want a real shock, open up a PDR.

Before you ask, at this time — beyond what has already been published — I have absolutely no opinions, suggestions, or advice regarding dosage levels and interactions with any other medications or street drugs you may be on.  Please do not ask me.  When I have further observations they’ll be published.

Nothing is absolutely safe, ‘cept medical marijuana … just ask Dana, he’ll tell you!

Patrick

From: “Sjonnygee .” <sjonnygee@msn.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Liberty
Date: September 10, 2005 at 1:38:26 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I didn’t post these quotes frivolously – Beyond the disaster in New Orleans there is rot and it will continue.

Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not vote for
him. Why is he there? And I tell you this morning that he’s in the White House
because God put him there for a time such as this: Lt Gen William Boykin,
speaking of G. W. Bush, New York Times, 17 October 2003

=
God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable
faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany. Hermann Goering, speaking
of Hitler

=
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him,
believing that he has the gods on his side: Aristotle
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

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From: Krista Vaughan <krista.vaughan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 1:28:29 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t understand much of anything Dr. Mash is doing, because what
she has said in the past is in direct conflict with the drug she is
trying to market, if noribogaine builds to toxic levels then how can
you sell noribogaine in a patch? More then that, Patrick has worked
for her for 6 years or something like that and I’m sure seen the data,
then went ahead and published ibogaine maintenance. I also don’t know
anyone but her using her doses on people or detoxing them before they
even take ibogaine. This is right back to everyone being off in their
own world and not agreeing on even the most basic things like science,
never mind aftercare or theories of how addiction works.

Question for Patrick is about maintenance, you are very good with
words, you don’t say it exactly but you make it sound like almost
everyone stops maintenance doses after 2 or 3 weeks and doesn’t do
anymore ibogaine for a while, is this the case?

KV

On 9/10/05, HSLotsof@aol.com <HSLotsof@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a
massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as
I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking
ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with
the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact
that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died.
Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using
groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend
to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t
introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more
at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug
issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is
inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of
data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge,
one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here
and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in
much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not
interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk
considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more
attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either
predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will
happily change the wording.

Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from
non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue
of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine
or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent
individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the
non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality
chart. Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have
to sort out different patient populations. Of course I may be missing a few
fatalities you are aware of that I am not.  Additionally, chemical dependent
substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the
general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed
for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an
anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might
be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical
study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis
and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no
way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be
informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on
Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it.
Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning
about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of
over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA
approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 12:39:37 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/9/05 7:27:12 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thanks for mailing. It’s nice to hear from you. Personally, I don’t see a massive need to segregate druggies from non-druggies here because, as far as I’m aware, no one really knows why people sometimes die after taking ibogaine. More addicts have taken it than non-addicts but, especially with the mysterious cardiac problems, I haven’t seen any evidence that the fact that they were or had been drug users was a factor in why they died. Tendencies towards liver problems for sure is higher among opiate-using groups but the main mysterious deaths were cardiac related. Drug users tend to take more ibogaine than “spiritual seekers” but, again, this doesn’t introduce a factor which would indicate that drug users are inherently more at risk.

As I see it, most of the data is from people that take ibogaine for drug issues. Liver problems aside, this does not indicate to me that the drug is inherently more dangerous for drug users than non. There is simply a lack of data.

Personally, I try throughout my site to retain a relatively unbiased edge, one that is neither pro nor anti ibogaine. Probably I fail a fair bit here and there, but my intention is to approach the subject, one surrounded in much emotional furore, from a relatively unbiased perspective. I’m not interested in promoting ibogaine at the expense of genuine risk considerations. I’m not interested in re-wording something to make it more attractive.

When there’s evidence that the cardiac related fatalities were either predictable in advance, or clearly related to someone’s drug usage, I will happily change the wording.
Hi Nick,

One reason for separating chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects from non-chemical dependent ibogaine treated subjects us that there is an issue of all of the ibogaine related fatalities occurring with purified ibogaine or purified extract having occurred in either chemically dependent individuals or persons with cardiac disorders.  This sort of leaves the non-chemical dependent, non-cardiac disorder population out of the fatality chart. Not that they should be excluded from being at risk but, you do have to sort out different patient populations. Of course I may be missing a few fatalities you are aware of that I am not.  Additionally, chemical dependent substance use disorder patients have a higher mortality rate than the general population excluding any issue of ibogaine administration.

I was recently looking at the package insert for Neurontin, a drug proposed for pain management and anxiety control (off label) as well as, as an anti-seizure medication.  The fatality rate from a clinical
study described on the package insert is 11 in 2500 but, my numbers might be off and you can check that. And these were in a very watched clinical study.  All drugs have fatality related effects possibly excluding cannabis and the war on drugs group would certainly question that.

I send persons seeking ibogaine therapy to your page because there is no way they can escape the fatality issue and I think patients should be informed of this issue.  You don’t find this discussion of fatalities on Mash’s treatment pages.  I DO think the ibogaine association deals with it. Anyway if anyone reads your page <ibogaine.co.uk> they have fair warning about ibogaine related fatalities.  Do remember that there are an average of over 100,000 (one hundred thousand) drug related fatalities from FDA approved drugs in US hospitals every year.

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] risk, therapy
Date: September 10, 2005 at 12:39:35 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 9/9/05 11:29:27 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

As I understand it, a big reason why low-dose treatments didn’t get looked
at so much before was because of Dr Mash’s hypothesis, from the late 90s,
that they could cause dangerous levels of nor-ibogaine to accumulate in the
body. This was certainly her case against stepped dose administrations. From
what I can gather, it seems it’s not regarded as much of an issue now.
Perhaps someone else has more concrete information.

I don’t think that is the reality in any way.  First, in the early 1960s my worked included dose studies of 10 mg – 750 mg (total doses) or 0.14 – 19 mg/kg. I believe this was published in my chapter in the Proceedings for the First International Ibogaine Conference <http://www.doraweiner.org/alexanderlotsof.html>.  In the lower dose range, total doses of 10 mg – 50 mg, doses were administered for a many as seven continuous days. I did not publicize these doses as they were not effective in treating substance use disorders with associated opioid dependence phenomena and were generally discontinued after five or so days by the persons taking them do to the minor discomfort that Patrick describes in his paper published in MAPS.

As for Deborah Mash’s noribogaine runup theory, two things.  1) I don’t believed she believed in it enough to publish it and 2) I don’t know any providers who listen to what she says in terms of dosing.  The reason you have more low dose therapy and publishing of it is because there are more providers, more patients, more ibogaine, more discussion among ibogaine providers and the very human attribute of experimentation. And, don’t forget, the Africans were using low doses of T. iboga before anyone ever heard of Howard Lotsof or Deborah Mash.  Also possibly one would have second thoughts about publishing material indicating noribogaine toxicity when one hopes to develop the substance as a medication.  All of which is understandable.  There have been oral reports indicating that cardiac aberrations occur at the point when ibogaine is converted to noribogaine.  However, it was unclear whether the prolonged QT waves that were reported were due to the conversation of ibogaine to noribogaine or to noribogaine itself.

Howard

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Republicans response to New Orleans
Date: September 9, 2005 at 9:57:00 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Are you sure this wasn’t written by the Klan or something? Sure sounds like it.    Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] attention Mark C.
Date: September 9, 2005 at 9:33:54 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI all,
WHO HAS MARK CORCORAN’S PHONE NUMBER? i NEED IT NOW PLEASE!
THANKS ALL.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Republicans response to New Orleans
Date: September 9, 2005 at 8:19:29 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is from my school’s news section. “It’s your own fault for being
poor and black”

.:vector:.

Subject: TELLING IT LIKE IT IS

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the
Welfare State

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026??by Robert
Tracinski?Sep 02, 2005
?It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure
out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can’t blame them,
because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going
on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you
think that we are confronting a natural disaster.
?If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials
is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send
transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send
engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city’s infrastructure.
For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the
heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work
and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being
taken to clean up and rebuild.
?Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have
to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if
they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists–myself
included–did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind,
and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.?But this is not a
natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.
?The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by
federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane
Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television
channel has gotten the story wrong.
?The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not
happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades.
Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.
?The man-made disaster is the welfare state.
?For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be
confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave
in an emergency–indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in
other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have
been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it
is not even what we expect from a Third World country.
?When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion.
They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously
organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in
America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own
initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care
of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small
town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens
to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing
cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response
of New Yorkers to September 11).
?So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?
?To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a
description from a Washington Times Story:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050902-122920-2415r.htm
?”Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists,
knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets;
and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.
?”The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen
poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and
gunfire….
?”Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened
Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with
shoot-to-kill orders.
?” ‘These troops are…under my orders to restore order in the
streets,’ she said. ‘They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded.
These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing
to do so if necessary and I expect they will.’ ”
?The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this
article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests,
riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a
rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling
at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.
?What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for
an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to
storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the
drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people
to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?
?Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further
destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help
them?
?My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a
sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News
Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She
studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is
located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert
Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in
America. “The projects,” as they were known, were infamous for
uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since,
mercifully, been demolished along with Cabrini Green.)
?What Sherri was getting from last night’s television coverage was a
whiff of the sense of life of “the projects.” Then the “crawl”–the
informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news
channels–gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the
residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane,
and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the
city’s public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an
additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that
the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city’s
jails–so they just let many of them loose.

There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two
populations–that is, a large number of people in the jails used to
live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

[Update: I have been searching for news reports on this last story, but
I have not been able to confirm it. Instead, I have found numerous
reports about the collapse of the corrupt and incompetent New Orleans
Police Department; see

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Aug/20050831News017.asp

and


.]