Ibogaine List Archives – 2005-02-2

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:44:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Lee,

Interesting post, I also had a lot of  shit happen during my life like most people., except I was sexually abused by teenage girls when I was 3,…crazy ay,..wish they would do it now.
Any teenage girls out there that are still interested. 🙂

They would strip down take my clothes of and put me in the bed between them,..I don’t really remember exactly what they did,..I just remember I did not like it.
I have always been ok with it,…because they were girls I suppose.

I am listening to Led Zeppelin,..people are telling me to get with the times,..hey I have a lot of catching up to do.

Then when I was 4 my mother died of womb cancer and I was told and heard through the whispers that it was my fault (what a crock of shit) they said that if she
hadn’t had me she would be ok,…I believed it till I got a bit older and realised it was just hurtful bullshit. We left Beirut after mum died and came to Australia,
the only female bonding I had was my beautiful sister,..all my aunties uncles cousins ect were in Beirut. Dad did not have a wife to help him so he was very hard on us. When I was belted my hands would be tied behind my back and legs also tied then belted with a doubled up rope, not as bad as what Francis copped, i was not ever knocked out however would have welts all over me.

My father would lock the lounge room door which lead into the kitchen before going to work, if I did not wake up in time,I would not be able to have breakfeast or make any lunch, so at school I would be very hungry,I would come home that weak with hunger that I would eat the white tip of grasses, raid the neibours mandarin tree (when in season) there were times I would be faint with hunger waiting for dad to get home.

I would sometimes get up to mischief on the school holidays, so dad used to lock me in the garage early in the morning before going to work with two sandwiches and a bucket to go to the toilet in. He would let me out when he got home at 5:45pm. My father was beautiful in many ways, however very old fashioned and understandably qui9ck to go of his head with 4 children to bring up and work full time. He was at his wits end with us,..I understand what he did now. I love him.

Dad also died of cancer,..I nursed him for 3 months and was there when he passed on,went home. I had a nasty break with a straight girl I went out with and lost 10’s of thousands in our business venture. My brother was then murdered whilst working,..two years ago, he was my best friend, I saw him die also.

(I saw my brother when I took the Iboga)

Many more things,…however I will not bore you. We all have our hurts and pains our injustices,..this is life. I have had it better than 90% of the world population,..My experiences have made me who I am today,..they gave me depth of character,..even being addicted to opiates from the age of 15,..I do not regret any of it. It has been part of my life experiences,..and Wow what a journey. I love it,…life. None of this gives me a reason to use,..I don’t know if it ever did.

What I am trying to say is there are many many people who have had much harder lives than this and they don’t use or have a crutch,..I feel personally that there is
something else behind it,..behing becoming an addict.  To me heroin would fill that gap inside me,that gap that told you something was missing,..I believe that gap is the feeling of seperation from the all,..our longing to be contected,.. loved without condition. Heroin gave me a feeling of full love, it filled me, made me feel whole.

I beleive that this is why most “other” treatments don’t work it leaves you with the “gap” a feeling of emptiness,..Iboga filled my heart with honey,..it filled the gap,..
I feel whole,..all man. Iboga is the only thing that haas worked worked for me.

love,
Jasen.

From: bm <bmali1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ecstacy 2
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:40:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1416073,00.html
Ecstasy trials for combat stress
David Adam, science correspondent
Thursday February 17, 2005
The Guardian

American soldiers traumatised by fighting in Iraq and
Afghanistan are to be offered the drug ecstasy to help
free them of flashbacks and recurring nightmares.
The US food and drug administration has given the
go-ahead for the soldiers to be included in an
experiment to see if MDMA, the active ingredient in
ecstasy, can treat post-traumatic stress disorder.

Scientists behind the trial in South Carolina think
the feelings of emotional closeness reported by those
taking the drug could help the soldiers talk about
their experiences to therapists. Several victims of
rape and sexual abuse with post-traumatic stress
disorder, for whom existing treatments are
ineffective, have been given MDMA since the research
began last year.

Michael Mithoefer, the psychiatrist leading the trial,
said: “It’s looking very promising. It’s too early to
draw any conclusions but in these treatment-resistant
people so far the results are encouraging.

“People are able to connect more deeply on an
emotional level with the fact they are safe now.”

He is about to advertise for war veterans who fought
in the last five years to join the study.

According to the US national centre for post-traumatic
stress disorder, up to 30% of combat veterans suffer
from the condition at some point in their lives.

Known as shell shock during the first world war and
combat fatigue in the second, the condition is
characterised by intrusive memories, panic attacks and
the avoidance of situations which might force
sufferers to relive their wartime experiences.

Dr Mithoefer said the MDMA helped people discuss
traumatic situations without triggering anxiety.

“It appears to act as a catalyst to help people move
through whatever’s been blocking their success in
therapy.”

The existing drug-assisted therapy sessions last up to
eight hours, during music is played. The patients
swallow a capsule containing a placebo or 125mg of
MDMA – about the same or a little more than a typical
ecstasy tablet.

Psychologists assess the patients before and after the
trial to judge whether the drug has helped.

The study has provoked controversy, because
significant doubts remain about the long-term risks of
ecstasy.

Animal studies suggest that it lowers levels of the
brain chemical serotonin, and some politicians and
anti-drug campaigners have argued that research into
possible medical benefits of illegal drugs presents a
falsely reassuring message.

The South Carolina study marks a resurgence of
interest in the use of controlled psychedelic and
hallucinogenic drugs. Several studies in the US are
planned or are under way to investigate whether MDMA,
LSD and psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic
mushrooms, can treat conditions ranging from obsessive
compulsive disorder to anxiety in terminal cancer
patients.

=====
” lord , make me chaste , but not yet ” St.Augstine of Hippo
Very bad isn’t dead (“Things can get worse.”)–Haitian Proverbs
“A truth that’s told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.” William Blake.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: bm <bmali1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ecstacy 1
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:38:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

linked are a comment and article on use of ecstacy by
the US GOVT .

http://blog.lewrockwell.com/

Drug War Hypocrisy
Posted by Anthony Gregory at 06:50 PM

For years, MDMA was used clinically for psychiatric
treatment, marital counseling, helping people get over
post-traumatic stress disorder, and dealing with
addiction problems. The drug was invented in the early
20th century and accepted by many scientists as having
some medical uses. Then the feds made it illegal,
along with other empathogens and hallucinogens. After
that – surprise! – it became wildly popular in
colleges and dance clubs. For a few years, there was
some hysteria over this “designer drug” – which, like
“assault weapon,” means something the feds don’t like
– and possession of it became punished through
increasingly draconian means and unconstitutional
mandatory minimum sentences. About five years ago,
there were some proposals to make it illegal to have
it in one’s bloodstream, unusual even for the drug
war, and the drug was seen as a menace that would
justify banning speech about it. Censorship was in the
original draft of Feinstein and Hatch’s
“Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act,” later
renamed the “Club-drug Anti-Proliferation Act,” and
once again renamed the warm and fuzzy “Children’s
Health and Safety Act.”

Yes, MDMA (or “ecstacy”) seems to cause long-term
problems in large doses, but there’s been junk science
on the issue as well, including a doctored photo of a
brain of a user that became famous. (BTW, I hope no
one reads this as an endorsement of the drug.) But
what of the original medical uses, before the feds
turned it into a forbidden fruit? Is it really, like
marijuana supposedly is, totally without any medicinal
value? And if so, why is it now being administered to
U.S. soldiers with shell shock from Afghanistan and
Iraq “to help free them of flashbacks and recurring
nightmares,” in the precise way it was used clinically
for years before it was made illegal? Of course, the
state typically exempts itself from its own laws, and
this is simply one more example. Either the drug has
some medical benefits, in which case it does not
belong under Schedule I, the most restricted federal
category, even under current federal guidelines, or it
doesn’t have such benefits and the state is doping its
troops up on so

=====
” lord , make me chaste , but not yet ” St.Augstine of Hippo
Very bad isn’t dead (“Things can get worse.”)–Haitian Proverbs
“A truth that’s told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.” William Blake.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:31:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee and Shelly,

A prayer of guidance has already been said.
Just sent some more.

Hoping your freind heals quickly.

I just lit a candle in Australia for you both.
love,
Jasen.

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From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:17:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, you said the Whole Story, the reason a junkie’s life is HELL is becauseof legislation determining the illegality, and the fact that we intimidated all other countries to change their laws to mimic the United States. Certainly we would have some overdoses, and certainly all would not be idyllic with legal oiates, however Hell is because of what we go thru to keep a job, a habit, a secret, and then what society and law enforcement does to us because of our use….!.

Brad Fisher
Your Wheel Estate Specialist
Guaranty RV
brad.fisher@guaranty.com
541-912-3215
800-283-9163 ext.3053
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

>Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i >use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only >relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up >only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few >lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next >shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as >rock/meth/blow etc –<

if drugs were legal, so many of those consequences, the resulting hell, would not exist for a user. I know what I’m talking about, please believe me. I do know what I’m talking about. I can assure you that if you took away the running the streets, the sneaking and coniving, the need to do anything to obtain a smidgen of the drug, it wouldn’t be always bad. It just wouldn’t be.

The key, the proof to this is so obvious: Otherwise, “they” would not be prescribing opiates for pain if all use was going to be bad, and having said that, as a chronic pain patient I do not have a “meager existance.” I’ve taken steps to make sure my existance is not meager by participating in my existance regardless of whether I need opiates to do it comfortably enough or not.
Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

(but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no
>negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >
Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc —
Drug addiction can very well be compared to sexual abuse.  Both have suffered extremely although in different ways ie the drug user by abondoing his soul/familly/self etc the victim of sexual abuse in loosing faith in others/in his own worth etc.  However to know what the other person feels like you have to experience it your self.  that said it is only feasible tht a victim of sexual abuse cannot fathom the pain in a drug addict but both tread on the same path–the only solution and by no means simple is to look back and resolve it
Regards
matt

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction &
Sexual Abuse >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:29:37 -0500 > >>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >>based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >>the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >>straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.< > >On the Streets, or on COPS? >On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some >horrific behavior or other? >On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television >propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)? >How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how >much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or >shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users >in the very worst light? >Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think >we’re shown such “criminal” figures: >—– > >http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm > >excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice? >by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the >Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”) > >snip- > >With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new >business and means of control that can be instituted without giving >up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs
>industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White >House
Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug >Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the >fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the >situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when >discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for >such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement >involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” >on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse
>Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide >devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of >addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now >explained. > > “DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference > >in
the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment >and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” >asserted the retired general. “They have created a company >consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most >exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise >of developing highly effective medical treatment options for >addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over >100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as >McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 >Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal
>costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per >year.”[11] > > Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and >profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of > >prohibitionist
Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his >declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan >Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New >York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping >$1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of >crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable >companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech >on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals >to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in >crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and >raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is >around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said. > > “In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in
>the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the >previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies > >don’t
usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and >embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of >everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything >shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a >warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s >War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as >fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United >States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by >prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of
>druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today. > > >snip-
> >9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001
><www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123> > >10. Ibid. > >11.
McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000. > >12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics >of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70. >snip- >—– > >>Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual >>abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it >>is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to >>comprehend the experience of an addict?< > >I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on >anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree >entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime
>or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or >have
gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in >jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice >experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I >don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug >use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am
>not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil >company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil >company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, >but >I’m
not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I >suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know. > >>When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >>outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >>(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >>will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.< > >As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against >anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from >them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my >years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as >you Lee. > > >Peace and love, >Preston > >”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is >often mistaken for madness” >Richard Davenport-Hines > > >—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert >To: Ibogaine List >Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM
>Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse > > >Dear List, > >If >I
were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug >addiction it is this: > >Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they >see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to
>talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless >propaganda
which preaches that the addiction condition is a >reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the >sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to >mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this >state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and >it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some >level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process >of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard >enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a >luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.) >
>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >based >on
illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >straightforward human nature. Not rocket science. > >What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of >drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the >similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as >the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, >i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot >make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other
>experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to >perceive
what addicts have been through, and are going through, >based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time >to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. >Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views >are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the >drug addiction community nowhere fast. > >I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate >pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support >they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the >lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t >tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to >help me do as I say, not as I do. > >I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by >little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What >has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine >suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this >list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement >that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the >comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the >experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – >there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I >am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of >an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I >can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. >Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing. > >When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved. > >Lee > > > > >Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine >over a six year period.
>www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html >Free copies of Amazing Grace >available
here for members of the media >/ librarians etc:
>www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: > >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 5:44:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc –<

if drugs were legal, so many of those consequences, the resulting hell, would not exist for a user. I know what I’m talking about, please believe me. I do know what I’m talking about. I can assure you that if you took away the running the streets, the sneaking and coniving, the need to do anything to obtain a smidgen of the drug, it wouldn’t be always bad. It just wouldn’t be.

The key, the proof to this is so obvious: Otherwise, “they” would not be prescribing opiates for pain if all use was going to be bad, and having said that, as a chronic pain patient I do not have a “meager existance.” I’ve taken steps to make sure my existance is not meager by participating in my existance regardless of whether I need opiates to do it comfortably enough or not.
Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

(but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >
Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc —
Drug addiction can very well be compared to sexual abuse.  Both have suffered extremely although in different ways ie the drug user by abondoing his soul/familly/self etc the victim of sexual abuse in loosing faith in others/in his own worth etc.  However to know what the other person feels like you have to experience it your self.  that said it is only feasible tht a victim of sexual abuse cannot fathom the pain in a drug addict but both tread on the same path–the only solution and by no means simple is to look back and resolve it
Regards
matt

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:29:37 -0500 > >>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >>based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >>the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >>straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.< > >On the Streets, or on COPS? >On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some >horrific behavior or other? >On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television >propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)? >How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how >much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or >shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users >in the very worst light? >Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think >we’re shown such “criminal” figures: >—– > >http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm > >excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice? >by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the >Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”) > >snip- > >With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new >business and means of control that can be instituted without giving >up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs >industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White >House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug >Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the >fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the >situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when >discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for >such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement >involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” >on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse >Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide >devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of >addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now >explained. > >”DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference >in the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment >and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” >asserted the retired general. “They have created a company >consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most >exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise >of developing highly effective medical treatment options for >addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over >100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as >McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 >Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal >costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per >year.”[11] > >Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and >profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of >prohibitionist Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his >declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan >Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New >York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping >$1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of >crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable >companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech >on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals >to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in >crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and >raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is >around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said. > > “In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in >the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the >previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies >don’t usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and >embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of >everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything >shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a >warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s >War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as >fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United >States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by >prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of >druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today. > >snip- > >9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001 ><www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123> > >10. Ibid. > >11. McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000. > >12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics >of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70. >snip- >—– > >>Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual >>abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it >>is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to >>comprehend the experience of an addict?< > >I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on >anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree >entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime >or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or >have gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in >jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice >experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I >don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug >use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am >not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil >company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil >company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, >but I’m not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I >suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know. > >>When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >>outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >>(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >>will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.< > >As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against >anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from >them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my >years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as >you Lee. > > >Peace and love, >Preston > >”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is >often mistaken for madness” >Richard Davenport-Hines > > >—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert >To: Ibogaine List >Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM >Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse > > >Dear List, > >If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug >addiction it is this: > >Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they >see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to >talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless >propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a >reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the >sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to >mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this >state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and >it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some >level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process >of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard >enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a >luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.) > >Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >straightforward human nature. Not rocket science. > >What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of >drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the >similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as >the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, >i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot >make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other >experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to >perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, >based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time >to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. >Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views >are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the >drug addiction community nowhere fast. > >I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate >pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support >they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the >lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t >tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to >help me do as I say, not as I do. > >I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by >little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What >has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine >suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this >list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement >that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the >comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the >experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – >there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I >am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of >an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I >can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. >Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing. > >When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved. > >Lee > > > > >Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine >over a six year period. >www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html >Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media >/ librarians etc: >www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 5:18:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

(but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >
Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc —
Drug addiction can very well be compared to sexual abuse.  Both have suffered extremely although in different ways ie the drug user by abondoing his soul/familly/self etc the victim of sexual abuse in loosing faith in others/in his own worth etc.  However to know what the other person feels like you have to experience it your self.  that said it is only feasible tht a victim of sexual abuse cannot fathom the pain in a drug addict but both tread on the same path–the only solution and by no means simple is to look back and resolve it
Regards
matt

>From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:29:37 -0500 > >>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >>based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >>the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >>straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.< > >On the Streets, or on COPS? >On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some >horrific behavior or other? >On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television >propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)? >How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how >much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or >shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users >in the very worst light? >Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think >we’re shown such “criminal” figures: >—– > >http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm > >excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice? >by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the >Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”) > >snip- > >With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new >business and means of control that can be instituted without giving >up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs >industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White >House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug >Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the >fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the >situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when >discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for >such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement >involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” >on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse >Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide >devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of >addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now >explained. > >”DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference >in the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment >and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” >asserted the retired general. “They have created a company >consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most >exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise >of developing highly effective medical treatment options for >addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over >100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as >McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 >Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal >costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per >year.”[11] > >Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and >profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of >prohibitionist Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his >declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan >Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New >York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping >$1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of >crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable >companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech >on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals >to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in >crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and >raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is >around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said. > > “In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in >the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the >previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies >don’t usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and >embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of >everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything >shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a >warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s >War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as >fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United >States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by >prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of >druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today. > >snip- > >9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001 ><www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123> > >10. Ibid. > >11. McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000. > >12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics >of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70. >snip- >—– > >>Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual >>abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it >>is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to >>comprehend the experience of an addict?< > >I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on >anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree >entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime >or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or >have gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in >jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice >experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I >don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug >use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am >not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil >company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil >company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, >but I’m not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I >suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know. > >>When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >>outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >>(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >>will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.< > >As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against >anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from >them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my >years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as >you Lee. > > >Peace and love, >Preston > >”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is >often mistaken for madness” >Richard Davenport-Hines > > >—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert >To: Ibogaine List >Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM >Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse > > >Dear List, > >If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug >addiction it is this: > >Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they >see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to >talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless >propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a >reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the >sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to >mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this >state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and >it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some >level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process >of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard >enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a >luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.) > >Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >straightforward human nature. Not rocket science. > >What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of >drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the >similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as >the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, >i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot >make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other >experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to >perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, >based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time >to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. >Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views >are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the >drug addiction community nowhere fast. > >I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate >pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support >they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the >lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t >tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to >help me do as I say, not as I do. > >I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by >little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What >has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine >suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this >list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement >that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the >comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the >experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – >there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I >am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of >an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I >can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. >Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing. > >When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved. > >Lee > > > > >Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine >over a six year period. >www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html >Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media >/ librarians etc: >www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [OT] question for new yorkers…
Date: February 18, 2005 at 4:28:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

having been living in Paris in 1984 when Christo wrapped the Pont Neuf, I was very skeptical when I first heard about it, but when I saw the finished product, I was enrapt, if you’ll excuse the pun.
I haven’t yet seen it, but I want to. I think it’s probably really cool in person, 23 miles of these things all over Central Park, in February? That’s gotta look pretty cool Jon.
Whether it’s “art” or not? Hmmm.
;-0))

(Plus, the artists paid for it themselves, not we the taxpayers- imagine that. and I myself liked many of their other projects too, like wrapping the islands off Florida, that one was neat too, in my own opinion.)

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] [OT] question for new yorkers…

ok, so i know a lot of you out there are from nyc, and i wanted to get yer
opinion on something before i get there in a couple days…

i wanna know what you think of that gates of ny thing in central park…

is it art, or is it stupid?

i’m curious what the natives think.

without having yet seen it, i have to say i’m leaning towards the latter…

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 4:00:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Best to you and may it go well for you and all involved.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer

Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg

— “m.finman” wrote:
Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any
who will. Someone near and very dear to me is
currently in session. I feel collective prayer is
like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.

Martee

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:57:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But you’re not talking about this so much, it seems,
you’re saying that no one else can speak for you so I can’t use the word
“You” in communications. Is this it?<

No Nick, what I’m saying is that YOU cannot speak for anyone but YOU really, in terms of what YOU feel and how YOU think- and that it’s something I try to keep in mind when I myself am speaking and writing (which is why I constantly add thinks like, “as I myself,” and “I think” and such things).

that you have to be
responsible for your belief systems, that you are not involved in
self-sabotage. To communicate this I need to use the word “You.”<

I’m just not convinced this is true Nick- it may be for you, and it may even be true for me, but I can’t know it’s true for everyone- but I just realized this is getting a bit silly and I’m starting to get really nit-picky.

Specifically, in this situation, YOU are putting out, it seems to me, that
the forces arrayed against addicts are so powerful, especially the legal
position of heroin, that it makes it effectively impossible for them to take
a useful stance THEMSELVES against the prejudice they experience from
government and society. And that, presumably, they thus have to wait for
OTHERS to improve the position for them. Essentially, that nothing can
change until non-addicts do something.<

WHAT? LOL, that’s so entirely opposite of what I preach and practice I can’t even believe you just wrote this Nick- my entire being these days is geared to towards illustrating that people who have been known to take drugs, like me, are not automatically to be considered subhuman or incapable of being loved or holding jobs and respectable positions in society and positions in their families, etc. I take what is basically legal heroin for my extremely serious physical pain Nick, and I sit here and work for hours upon hours every day, and go out and meet with friends and associates, I carry on intelligent and not-so-intelligent conversations and debates, I eat and sleep and make love and have a healthy relationship. What in the world do you think I’m doing with DrugWar.com and all my other writings Nick? Letting someone else write them for me?

What I am pointing out is that adopting this victim position is not
conducive to getting anything meaningful done. There are problems, yes; it
is difficult, yes; but the issues are most definitely NOT insurmountable, in
my opinion.<

Who is adopting a victim position? Could you point out where anyone did that please?
To reiterate quickly, because this is the “ibogaine at mindvox” list, I’ve taken ibogaine twice now, and got a lot out of it. I’d like to take it again, in the not-so-distant future. I may even want to again at some point in time in the future too. I think it is an extremely useful and beneficial tool to use in detoxing people, and for giving people insights about themselves and the universe around them that they might not obtain without taking it, or at least, might not think of without taking it. I would have it available upon request for those who desire to use it for whatever their reason- within some sensible limitations derived from strictly health reasons. Having put myself through hell more than once because I was unable to quit abusing myself by abusing hard drugs I am one hundred percent suportive of ibogaine being legalized, as it sure did make unspringing the most interesting learning experience I could have ever imagined- and I’da still fallen short had I tried to imagine it, and believe me, I did try beforehand, a lot more than once. But I am also entirely unable to find it in myself to force anyone to take ibogaine or any other “treatment” for drug “addiction” as I feel that in my case, nothing is effective without the desire for change, nor has coerced anything ever done anything for me that was beneficial at all, ever (weeeellllll, there are ALWAYS exceptions, as in “school” which sure did give me a lot of food for thought over the years, and there were many, many times I did not want to go, sooo…I’m going to simply stop here).
I think this is a great example of the fact that there are not simple answers in this or any area.
We are still so early in the whole “drugs causes evil and addiction” phase of our society, that one hundred years of a “war” is not nearly enough time to really learn many answers about what drives people to behave in addictive fashion, especially since there have been so very many lies and so much misinformation spread about drugs and users in the same time. I wish I knew why I felt so much better when using this or that drug Nick. I wish I knew why I react the way I do when others react differently. I wish I knew one hundred percent whether I have a disease or simply a brain imbalance or an immaturity or what (and this is completely beyond the whole pain thing- in this case, I do have such pain that when the substitute doctor sitting in for my own doc yesterday told me she’d hesitate to put me on opiates because she feels docs “create addicts” I wanted to laugh out loud and ask her- “so you’d rather I stretch and excercise and bite the bullet deal with the pain without opiates because you don’t want me addicted to the one thing that gives me relief and allows me to work all day every day? Get REAL!” But I didn’t). Because I do have trouble keeping my use down- it’s a daily struggle to not give in to the “I want MORE” feelings- but I do struggle with it and it’s builds character in me Nick, makes me stronger for it.
Ok I blah, blah blah here. I gotta do some real work now, geez.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 18 February 2005 04:57
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did
actually pick
up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program,
to try and
stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize
things. Sitting
in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the
others would
get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our
feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in
acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be
inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I,
I, not You.
I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every
single time I
read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME,
and what
is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the
person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually
realize it or
not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try
to take the
“but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you
haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against
YOU? What
do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn
about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about
ME and how
I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a
result of what
YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.

Hey Preston,

For sure, you’re sitting in a circle with a bunch of guys and girls and some
of them are reluctant of using the word “I” because it’s easier for them to
discuss their feelings more in the 3rd person. When they start to
personalize they start to feel and therapists like to make you do this, it’s
part of their job. But you’re not talking about this so much, it seems,
you’re saying that no one else can speak for you so I can’t use the word
“You” in communications. Is this it?

So….using this, let me rephrase

What pro-addiction forces want is for me to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against me
are too much to be overwhelmed. If I believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. I always have a choice. If I don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump my belief systems. I have the choice what I
believe.”

Well, that’s also fine with me. But what I’m trying to communicate is what I
believe to be a General truth to this situation – that you have to be
responsible for your belief systems, that you are not involved in
self-sabotage. To communicate this I need to use the word “You.”

Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices
Nick-

OK, I would be interested to hear what you have in terms of choices, if you
would like to tell me.

what do
YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Yes, I do. I align my beliefs with what I want. If I want something, I
recognize that it’s not helpful to believe that I can’t get it.
Specifically, in this situation, YOU are putting out, it seems to me, that
the forces arrayed against addicts are so powerful, especially the legal
position of heroin, that it makes it effectively impossible for them to take
a useful stance THEMSELVES against the prejudice they experience from
government and society. And that, presumably, they thus have to wait for
OTHERS to improve the position for them. Essentially, that nothing can
change until non-addicts do something.

What I am pointing out is that adopting this victim position is not
conducive to getting anything meaningful done. There are problems, yes; it
is difficult, yes; but the issues are most definitely NOT insurmountable, in
my opinion.

So, is this OK? I am using the word YOU because I want to address these
comments to you.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:31:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.<

LOL, well, that’s a good point Allison and well taken.

Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:24 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

I can’t agree with your statement about needing a form of sedation to be functional or being overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis.  I also don’t think there is any mystery involved with addicts other than all the usual life questions or the recovery solution.    Tis amazing what we can learn about drugs, how to get them, adapt them, use them even if we don’t want to learn other things.  Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.   Allison

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:29:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.<

On the Streets, or on COPS?
On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some horrific behavior or other?
On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)?
How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users in the very worst light?
Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think we’re shown such “criminal” figures:
—–

http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm

excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice?
by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”)

snip-

With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new business and means of control that can be instituted without giving up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now explained.

“DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference in the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” asserted the retired general. “They have created a company consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise of developing highly effective medical treatment options for addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over 100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per year.”[11]

Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of prohibitionist Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping $1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said.

“In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies don’t usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today.

snip-

9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001 <www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123>

10. Ibid.

11. McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000.

12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70.
snip-
—–

Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict?<

I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or have gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, but I’m not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.<

As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as you Lee.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Dear List,

If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug addiction it is this:

Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.)

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.

What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the drug addiction community nowhere fast.

I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to help me do as I say, not as I do.

I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 18, 2005 at 2:35:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Donna,

That’s fine,  take it easy until then and enjoy your family gathering.

Love,

Sara

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2005 19:44
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe

Hi Sara

I am not going to be able to come over to Holland this weekend, I was planning to come today, but I am going on a family holiday tomorrow and did not get everything done, I hope you are well and I look forward to meeting you soon.

Love Donnaxx

From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: [Ibogaine] [OT] question for new yorkers…
Date: February 18, 2005 at 2:04:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ok, so i know a lot of you out there are from nyc, and i wanted to get yer
opinion on something before i get there in a couple days…

i wanna know what you think of that gates of ny thing in central park…

is it art, or is it stupid?

i’m curious what the natives think.

without having yet seen it, i have to say i’m leaning towards the latter…

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From: <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Provider’s Charter- huzzah
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:55:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee and the list:

The provider’s charter is a great idea,and I would love to see what you
come up with. I have had problems getting to trust and honesty with my
opiate addicted clients. And tweakers are usually so mentally shredded
that the phrase “fully informed” becomes black humor. PCP victims can be
irretrievably brain damaged from their “free will” choices only days or
hours before. The dread of dope sickness and unassisted withdrawal makes
these wonderful people say whatever they think I would like to hear, and
save stashes nearby to re-medicate, “just in case”.

The downside of a fraudulent agreement for the provider here in the
States, or anywhere with a drug cartel owned judicial system, is way too
heavy to be worth the low income and long hours of attention. Charters,
Contracts, Rights, and other terms of conscious agreement between adults
imply a two way permissive verbal contract. At what point is any agreement
void due to one party to it being out of their heads in fear and pain?
Coercion, destraint, confession thru torture,etc., these are legal
concepts long established as invalidating contracts.

It’s great to be in favor of the user’s rights and respect their free
will, but we are discussing physical medicinal effects that push the
identity and will all over the map at different points in the journey.
What’s “free” and whose “will” is involved for this experience and
agreement to facilitate it? Things are a little different here than just
choosing a bistro menu item for the provider to provide.

Let’s see how you frame the charter, Lee. And thank you for your eloquence
and insight adding to these discussions, thus far.

Dr. Tom

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:44:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sara

I am not going to be able to come over to Holland this weekend, I was planning to come today, but I am going on a family holiday tomorrow and did not get everything done, I hope you are well and I look forward to meeting you soon.

Love Donnaxx

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:35:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To the topic of ibogaine,  I just was thinking about something
triggered in my mind by Cohen’s query re the magickal aura ascribed to
the plant.  That its process is akin to an exorcism.  Whatever that
means.

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:32:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee
Im sending calm soothing thoughts and praying for your friend, wish her love and light

love donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:24:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi allison

Thanks for that, I still want to do the ibo but doing this with the meth might be an option for me untill i can arrange a session with an experienced provider.

thanks once again for the advice love donna

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:03:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You Wrote :
“”todays satanists are people who have deep psycological problems that dont really have to do with the devil—that doesnt mean there are people who are possesd by evil forces but in genearal its all rebeliion etc””

#At least this is what they believe.  LOL
So satanists are just people with psycological problems ?? I wish it will be that easy.
God Bless
Francis

>From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:07:06 -0800 (PST) > >As far as I understand it, the occult and Satanism are >separate, distinct things. “Occult” means ‘hidden >knowledge’, not ‘devil worship’; Satanism is a >religion which chooses to deify Lucifer. > >That being said, I agree with the other poster who >said that if you deal with dark energies (either >external or internal, and quite possibly the same) >eventually you pay the piper… > >Julie > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:44:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Exactly its unreal you can go up as much as u want –i know a person who only used tylenol 3 and percocet and now hes on 220 mg —can u belive it —-and he started to go up because he was getting high and the ignorant doctor just kept going up and up….unreal
Regards
matt

>From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:58:01 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi Matt,. I think thats the general idea with Methadone. It goes on and on >like the never ending story. I was talking about doing over a few days to >ease withdrawals like Martee was talking about. Not the way the system >works which is to stick you on the program, hope you shut & cause no trouble >and then forget about you or if you do winge give you another few mgs. >Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Saturday, 19 February 2005 3:57:41 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >I was on methadone for a few years..jumping from a 100mg to 20 back to 50 >etc….Although i heard poistive reports of methadone patients i personaly >havent met any one who tapered themselves from it withou using other poisons > Without eboga i would never quit because the lowest i got was 5mg but that >was pure hell so i started using benzos to sleep and eventually relapsed to >heroin/opiates then back on meth and i repeated that process a thousand >times it seems…It really irrates me when meth doctors dont explain that >this process can and usully will last a lifetime >Regards >Matt > > > > > > > > >From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: >ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:41:40 >+1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi donna. I too used Methadone like >Martee talked about. I did 30-35mgs >first and then dropped over 3 days >which didn’t bother the system much but >found that the last few mgs were >the hardest and the longer you hang on to >the methadone the harder it is to >break. I can’t decided if the last bit >was a mental crutch or physical or a >bit of both. Perhaps Martee can >provide that info. It does help cleaning up >but doesn’t solve the problem >of staying clean which apparently ibogaine >can provide. At least it might >give you some space to think of alternatives >and get your head around >cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling >like shit which is what I >got used to doing. Good luck and best wishes. >Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com > >Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com > >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >Hi >Martee > >I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I >would >have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off >the >gear!!!!. I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that >way, >i’ll keep you posted > >love donna > > > > >Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now >and get the first two months FREE* >

Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:40:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Julie
Wow are you serious that long in your system eh–well that tells us everything…i would agree that heroin maintaince would be better although it still doesnt solve anyting…
Regards
Matt

>From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:13:05 -0800 (PST) > >Matthew, > >What you say is absolutely true- I also do not know >one single person who managed to kick methadone >without chipping either heroin or pills. detoxing >from methadone is simply too hard.. > >BTW, I used morphine sulphate for two weeks prior to >my second Ibo session, in an attempt to make the whole >process somewhat easier. Three weeks after my Ibo, >and 5 after my last methadone drink, my urinalysis >STIll tested positive for methadone! > >Heroin maintenance seems like such a better solution, >in my humble opinion… > >Julie > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:40:11 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Lee for your very good E-Mail.

You’ve made a very good point and I agree with all of it.
I was beated by my father almost on a daily base. When I said beated, I mean too.. knock out.I was living in his garden with the dog and feed in the same way .. and his   went on for a year. One day, I prepared myself to fight back and just try to  kill the son of  a bich , infortunately he was stronger than me 🙁

To make a long story short, the man was evil or very sick.I don’t know and I am not even realy interested in knowing. Does ‘ nt bother me. This is karma. This was my karma too.I survive is treatment, and when I finaly manage to escape I survive one year in madagascar bush  ( We where  living there )

” Here and everywhere , they said what dosent kill you make you stronger. ” I am a true believer in this.He make me very strong and I forgive him.
Now he is dead ( he died in one of his terrible rage ) and I am alive.

If you have to make a sword you have to put the metal throught fire, then you have do  the hardening process throught beating.
Then come the cold forging  :the ridge and the edge line are made straight before finishing the body of the sword.( that was my part ) Then come the curving ( the change I had to make ) Then come the polishing , that the final touch 🙂

Pain is pain no matter who own it. It what you do with pain that matter.
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Dear List,

If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug addiction it is this:

Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.)

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.

What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the drug addiction community nowhere fast.

I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to help me do as I say, not as I do.

I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – there are others, victims of war,…..). If you need proof of what I am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice…. Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:38:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Right Julie :}  And another thing those kids who say they worship the devil have no idea about deep esoteric knowledge ….they think that by dressing in black wearing upsidedown pentagrams and listening to black/death metal makes them satanists —it just makes them ignorant—-cause even though i belive that christianity is full of deceit and prejuduicehowver the symbol of the cross symbolises goodness love among other egyptian symbolic meanings but when u turn it upside down you are reaversing the whole energy so whats the point…..todays satanists are people who have deep psycological problems that dont really have to do with the devil—that doesnt mean there are people who are possesd by evil forces but in genearal its all rebeliion etc
Regards
matt

>From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:07:06 -0800 (PST) > >As far as I understand it, the occult and Satanism are >separate, distinct things. “Occult” means ‘hidden >knowledge’, not ‘devil worship’; Satanism is a >religion which chooses to deify Lucifer. > >That being said, I agree with the other poster who >said that if you deal with dark energies (either >external or internal, and quite possibly the same) >eventually you pay the piper… > >Julie > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:27:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee and Shelly,

Prayers for both you and yours and a vast, luminescent
purple energy field pulsating out from Toronto….

Julie

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:13:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matthew,

What you say is absolutely true- I also do not know
one single person who managed to kick methadone
without chipping either heroin or pills.   detoxing
from methadone is simply too hard..

BTW, I used morphine sulphate for two weeks prior to
my second Ibo session, in an attempt to make the whole
process somewhat easier.  Three weeks after my Ibo,
and 5 after my last methadone drink, my urinalysis
STIll tested positive for methadone!

Heroin maintenance seems like such a better solution,
in my humble opinion…

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:07:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As far as I understand it, the occult and Satanism are
separate, distinct things.  “Occult” means ‘hidden
knowledge’, not ‘devil worship’; Satanism is a
religion which chooses to deify Lucifer.

That being said, I agree with the other poster who
said that if you deal with dark energies (either
external or internal, and quite possibly the same)
eventually you pay the piper…

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:58:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt,.  I think thats the general idea with Methadone.  It goes on and on like the never ending story.  I was talking about doing over a few days to ease withdrawals like Martee was talking about.  Not the way the system works which is to stick you on the program, hope you shut & cause no trouble and then forget about you or if you do winge give you another few mgs.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Saturday, 19 February 2005 3:57:41 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

I was on methadone for a few years..jumping from a 100mg to 20 back to 50 etc….Although i heard poistive reports of methadone patients i personaly havent met any one who tapered themselves from it withou using other poisons.  Without eboga i would never quit because the lowest i got was 5mg but that was pure hell so i started using benzos to sleep and eventually relapsed to heroin/opiates then back on meth and i repeated that process a thousand times it seems…It really irrates me when meth doctors dont explain that this process can and usully will last a lifetime
Regards
Matt

>From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:41:40 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi donna. I too used Methadone like Martee talked about. I did 30-35mgs >first and then dropped over 3 days which didn’t bother the system much but >found that the last few mgs were the hardest and the longer you hang on to >the methadone the harder it is to break. I can’t decided if the last bit >was a mental crutch or physical or a bit of both. Perhaps Martee can >provide that info. It does help cleaning up but doesn’t solve the problem >of staying clean which apparently ibogaine can provide. At least it might >give you some space to think of alternatives and get your head around >cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling like shit which is what I >got used to doing. Good luck and best wishes. Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >Hi Martee > >I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would >have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the >gear!!!!. I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, >i’ll keep you posted > >love donna >

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Power of Love/just wanted to share
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:53:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee,

That was really lovely…thanks for sharing it!

Julie

__________________________________
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:31:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis
The reason i wrote that people who choose to play with fire will get burned is that u can use positive and negative energy to find your path…The occult presents you with a a wide path…it is up to you how u choose to use it….All im saying is you cannot lump esoteric arts into dangerous practises becasue there are people who use the hidden way to find happiness and love through love and light and goodness….ie mme blavatsky,dion  fortune
Respect
Matt

>From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:16:53 -0500 > >Hi Matt > >*In the article they wrote : > >”All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” > >*Why do you wrote ? : > >If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense > > > >God Bless >Francis > > —– Original Message —– > From: matthew zielinski > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:49 AM > Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course > > > When will people recognize that the occult does not signify evil! If anyone does a simple research on the occult they will undertand that its just another path to enlightment. If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense > > Regards > > matt > > > > > > > > > >From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:06:22 -0500 > >I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel >all right now…. > >The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL > ——————————————————————— >Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP) >Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes >By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer > > (02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) — > > In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly >stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a >lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism. > > Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a >Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests >and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class >is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by >exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist. > > The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up >misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do >not carry out. > > “An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was >told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari, >secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group, >co-sponsor of the class. > > Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of >driving the devil from someone’s body. > > Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are >merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on >people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get >carried away and invent mystical gestures. > > “Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an >exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and >prayer. > > In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades >of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right. >Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to >psychological problems. > > “All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” >Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars. > > The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed >to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual >killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of >Satan.” > > One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may >have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification >of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year >and buried alive. > > Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people >who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely >monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the >Internet. > > “It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness >and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of >Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the >devil’s lure to young people. > > The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a >conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher >Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request, >senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics. > > “In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even >theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'” > > The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an >Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories. > > Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the >1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and >demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when >the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out >devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in >deciding who should be exorcised. > > The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a >reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that >the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of >homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.” > > A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his >memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian >woman who was screaming and writhing. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report. > > ———————————————————————- >Copyright 2005 AP > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > > > > >—————————————————————————— > Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:28:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sarah I am with you !!
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

What if they are mass murderers? Are you still gone watch and do nothing?
Not saying anything is like hiding your had in the sand.
Saying you don’t like it is your right. I don’t think you should feel
That you need to apologize.
S.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2005 3:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:22:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We will pray, here.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer

All the best—may the loving energy of eboga guide you and heal you —-peace and love :}
Best Regards
Matt

>From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:37:10 -0800 (PST) > >Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell > >knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg > > >— “m.finman” wrote: > > Kindly, > > Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any > > who will. Someone near and very dear to me is > > currently in session. I feel collective prayer is > > like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light. > > > > Martee > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ >ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] >\]=———————————————————————=[/ >

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:16:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt

*In the article they wrote :

“All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,”

*Why do you wrote ? :

If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense

God Bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course

When will people recognize that the occult does not signify evil!  If anyone does a simple research on the occult they will undertand that its just another path to enlightment.  If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense
Regards
matt

>From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:06:22 -0500 > >I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel >all right now…. > >The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL > ——————————————————————— >Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP) >Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes >By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer > > (02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) — > > In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly >stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a >lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism. > > Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a >Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests >and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class >is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by >exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist. > > The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up >misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do >not carry out. > > “An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was >told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari, >secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group, >co-sponsor of the class. > > Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of >driving the devil from someone’s body. > > Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are >merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on >people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get >carried away and invent mystical gestures. > > “Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an >exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and >prayer. > > In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades >of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right. >Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to >psychological problems. > > “All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” >Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars. > > The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed >to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual >killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of >Satan.” > > One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may >have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification >of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year >and buried alive. > > Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people >who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely >monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the >Internet. > > “It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness >and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of >Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the >devil’s lure to young people. > > The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a >conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher >Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request, >senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics. > > “In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even >theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'” > > The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an >Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories. > > Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the >1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and >demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when >the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out >devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in >deciding who should be exorcised. > > The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a >reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that >the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of >homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.” > > A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his >memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian >woman who was screaming and writhing. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report. > > ———————————————————————- >Copyright 2005 AP > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:10:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jason, your the MAN. That sounds like the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. Esp. the step about the deranged post. Can I get an AMEN?        Randy

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:56:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was on methadone for a few years..jumping from a 100mg to 20 back to 50 etc….Although i heard poistive reports of methadone patients i personaly havent met any one who tapered themselves from it withou using other poisons.  Without eboga i would never quit because the lowest i got was 5mg but that was pure hell so i started using benzos to sleep and eventually relapsed to heroin/opiates then back on meth and i repeated that process a thousand times it seems…It really irrates me when meth doctors dont explain that this process can and usully will last a lifetime
Regards
Matt

>From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:41:40 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi donna. I too used Methadone like Martee talked about. I did 30-35mgs >first and then dropped over 3 days which didn’t bother the system much but >found that the last few mgs were the hardest and the longer you hang on to >the methadone the harder it is to break. I can’t decided if the last bit >was a mental crutch or physical or a bit of both. Perhaps Martee can >provide that info. It does help cleaning up but doesn’t solve the problem >of staying clean which apparently ibogaine can provide. At least it might >give you some space to think of alternatives and get your head around >cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling like shit which is what I >got used to doing. Good luck and best wishes. Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >Hi Martee > >I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would >have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the >gear!!!!. I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, >i’ll keep you posted > >love donna >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:49:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When will people recognize that the occult does not signify evil!  If anyone does a simple research on the occult they will undertand that its just another path to enlightment.  If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense
Regards
matt

>From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:06:22 -0500 > >I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel >all right now…. > >The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL > ——————————————————————— >Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP) >Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes >By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer > > (02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) — > > In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly >stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a >lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism. > > Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a >Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests >and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class >is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by >exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist. > > The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up >misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do >not carry out. > > “An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was >told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari, >secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group, >co-sponsor of the class. > > Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of >driving the devil from someone’s body. > > Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are >merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on >people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get >carried away and invent mystical gestures. > > “Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an >exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and >prayer. > > In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades >of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right. >Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to >psychological problems. > > “All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” >Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars. > > The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed >to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual >killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of >Satan.” > > One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may >have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification >of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year >and buried alive. > > Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people >who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely >monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the >Internet. > > “It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness >and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of >Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the >devil’s lure to young people. > > The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a >conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher >Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request, >senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics. > > “In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even >theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'” > > The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an >Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories. > > Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the >1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and >demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when >the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out >devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in >deciding who should be exorcised. > > The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a >reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that >the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of >homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.” > > A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his >memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian >woman who was screaming and writhing. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report. > > ———————————————————————- >Copyright 2005 AP > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:41:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All the best—may the loving energy of eboga guide you and heal you —-peace and love :}
Best Regards
Matt

>From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:37:10 -0800 (PST) > >Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell > >knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg > > >— “m.finman” wrote: > > Kindly, > > Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any > > who will. Someone near and very dear to me is > > currently in session. I feel collective prayer is > > like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light. > > > > Martee > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ >ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] >\]=———————————————————————=[/ >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:11:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee
All the best to your acquantiance….I hope eboga will heal and enlighten him/her in every way…all the best….one love:}
Best Regards
matt

>From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:37:20 -0500 > >Kindly, > Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any who will. Someone near and very dear to me is currently in session. I feel collective prayer is like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light. > Martee

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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:55:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ta for the reply Nick.  Perhaps I’m thinking in a narrow way but I really have problems accepting that most people don’t know what heroin is especially people addicted to it.  Even if your interested in nothing else most users make it their business to know what is in what pharmacy drugs, pills, what you can break down etc. etc.  Anything to work that high.   Plus there is so much information out there these days about heroin and drugs (even if a lot is mis-information) how could people not know.   Allison

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [Ibogaine] free chooice- not for under 18 years old.
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:42:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [Ibogaine] just not look under 18 (OT)
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:38:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:37:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg

— “m.finman” wrote:
> Kindly,
> Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any
> who will. Someone near and very dear to me is
> currently in session. I feel collective prayer is
> like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.
>
> Martee
>

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:20:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey there,

It’s not temazepam but this is what I try to do…
it works sometimes, sometimes not.

3 hours before bedtime Daily Kava and/or melaToeNIN

step 0.1/eXerrrSize (Long walk[with pet if possible],
dunce,    yoga or whatever)

step 0.2/when back from Walk, warm Shower, wash with
Good Soap, ‘let go’ when rinsing.  If problem with
that, visualize a good size Cup of Pure Relaxing
Liquid above head, when See it good, start rinsing
while visualizing the Pure Relaxing Liquid pouring
starting at the crown of “hEEd” (look at the size of
the melon..) down neck back, chest etc…

step 0.3/eat and drink good food and drink with some
more kava

step 0.4/grab 3 books, make bed with clean sheets,
lay down and start reading.  If 60-90min pass and
still awake, post an enlightened post here, followed
by a deranged one.  Open word doc and start writing
life story, or type random text from favorite books,
either way.

If still awake, Rinse then Repeat.

I hope things are well for you.  The severity of
the insomnia post ibo seems to lessen in a few days I
think.

Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:05:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Allison Senepart [mailto:paradisepaint@call south.net.nz]
Sent: 18 February 2005 11:24
To: ibogaine
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

I can’t agree with your statement about needing a form of sedation to be functional or being overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis.  I also don’t think there is any mystery involved with addicts other than all the usual life questions or the recovery solution.    Tis amazing what we can learn about drugs, how to get them, adapt them, use them even if we don’t want to learn other things.  Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.   Allison

Allison,

A lot of people in the UK have genuinely no idea what heroin actually is. To them it’s simply a word that conjures up all sorts of images of vast evil that could descend on themselves or their kids at any moment and their lives would just be interminably fucked up. Really. Some addicts too, in my experience. They don’t realize it’s just an analgesic, a painkiller.

Nick
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:58:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:47
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings
on a daily
basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be
functional. My
thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its
action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that
their drug
is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and
fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues
with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.<

Hey, what do you know, I somewhat agree with you here Nick!
;-)))

Hey Preston,

We did it! We found something we agree on! Yeah, I love you, it’s great man.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:56:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 18 February 2005 04:57
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did
actually pick
up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program,
to try and
stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize
things. Sitting
in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the
others would
get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our
feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in
acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be
inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I,
I, not You.
I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every
single time I
read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME,
and what
is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the
person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually
realize it or
not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try
to take the
“but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you
haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against
YOU? What
do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn
about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about
ME and how
I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a
result of what
YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.

Hey Preston,

For sure, you’re sitting in a circle with a bunch of guys and girls and some
of them are reluctant of using the word “I” because it’s easier for them to
discuss their feelings more in the 3rd person. When they start to
personalize they start to feel and therapists like to make you do this, it’s
part of their job. But you’re not talking about this so much, it seems,
you’re saying that no one else can speak for you so I can’t use the word
“You” in communications. Is this it?

So….using this, let me rephrase

What pro-addiction forces want is for me to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against me
are too much to be overwhelmed. If I believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. I always have a choice. If I don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump my belief systems. I have the choice what I
believe.”

Well, that’s also fine with me. But what I’m trying to communicate is what I
believe to be a General truth to this situation – that you have to be
responsible for your belief systems, that you are not involved in
self-sabotage. To communicate this I need to use the word “You.”

Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices
Nick-

OK, I would be interested to hear what you have in terms of choices, if you
would like to tell me.

what do
YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Yes, I do. I align my beliefs with what I want. If I want something, I
recognize that it’s not helpful to believe that I can’t get it.
Specifically, in this situation, YOU are putting out, it seems to me, that
the forces arrayed against addicts are so powerful, especially the legal
position of heroin, that it makes it effectively impossible for them to take
a useful stance THEMSELVES against the prejudice they experience from
government and society. And that, presumably, they thus have to wait for
OTHERS to improve the position for them. Essentially, that nothing can
change until non-addicts do something.

What I am pointing out is that adopting this victim position is not
conducive to getting anything meaningful done. There are problems, yes; it
is difficult, yes; but the issues are most definitely NOT insurmountable, in
my opinion.

So, is this OK? I am using the word YOU because I want to address these
comments to you.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston

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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:55:19 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sleep patterns.  What are they.  I can’t remember having any sort of normal sleep pattern since I was about 13.  Used to swim and do sports as a teenager & had trouble sleeping, got older worked night shifts through high school to make money and enjoyed working nights.  Did bar work, catering and that suited me fine but not such a good routine when you have children and a home.  When my daughter was young I used to do all my housework at night cuz thats what worked for me.  Poor kid probably thought the vacuum cleaner was something that happened after dark.  I just figured I was a night owl but then I have never seemed to slot into the so called appropriate slots.  Part of the personality and using drugs is all about pushing the boundries and so called rules and regulations (I hate being told what to do)   but it can be hard to turn back once you cross lines.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 11:00:25 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Matt, after Ibo my Doc gave me some kind of anti depressant that really helped. I can’t remember what it was so I’ll call him Friday and find out. It wasn’t Elavil. I’ve been meaning to call him and thank him for helping me anyway. 5 months later I still sleep sporadically. I always did though. I’ve never had “normal” sleep patterns and I think that is true with a lot of us. It is good to see more people using Ibogaine.         Randy

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:41:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi donna.  I too used Methadone like Martee talked about.  I did 30-35mgs first and then dropped over 3 days which didn’t bother the system much but found that the last few mgs were the hardest and the longer you hang on to the methadone the harder it is to break.  I can’t decided if the last bit was a mental crutch or physical or a bit of both.  Perhaps Martee can provide that info.  It does help cleaning up but doesn’t solve the problem of staying clean which apparently ibogaine can provide.  At least it might give you some space to think of alternatives and get your head around cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling like shit which is what I got used to doing.  Good luck and best wishes.   Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Martee

I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the gear!!!!.  I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, i’ll keep you posted

love donna

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga (long )
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:34:30 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I heard you could see a kinesthiologist( sorry, not sure of the spelling) that could tell you exactly what vitamins, minerals etc were lacking in the body and also let you know what toxins your body had that you had picked up.;  Do you know anything about that??  I thought your herbal medicine message was great although it helps to know what to take as in individual.  I was just thinking of all the different products on the market and sometimes its easy for people to get swamped with false claims and products.   Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 2:16:03 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga (long )

Hi Matt !

Here some help 🙂

Ayurvedic:

Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera)
Dr. Shailinder Sodhi, N.D., an expert in Ayurvedic medicine from Bellevue, Washington, says, “Ashwagandha provides a sense of wellbeing with a decrease in anxiety. Users feel mellow. It is also a good aphrodisiac.” Lise Alschuler, N.D., Chair of the Botanical Medicine Department at Bastyr University in Seattle, Washington, adds, “My clinical experience indicates that ashwagandha reduces anxiety and is helpful for insomnia. I recommend it for patients who are tense and need a calming herb. They can think more clearly after being relaxed.”
—————————————————————————————————-

Herbal medecine:
In this world, we all are faced with the effects of a stressful lifestyle. The “stress” symptoms most commonly seen by the health care practitioner are insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness. Fortunately, there are alternatives to the use of prescription medications– many herbal and nutritional remedies work quite well!
The western herbs that act as relaxants as well as nervine tonics are beneficial. These include Valerian, Passion Flower, Chamomile, Vervain, and Oatstraw. This category of herbs not only relaxes nervous tension, but also tones the nervous system. Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) is the most popular of this category, and has been shown in studies to enhance sleep quality with no side-effects the next morning.
Adaptogenic herbs such as Siberian Ginseng and American Ginseng are also useful. The symptoms of insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness are often signs of deep metabolic stress in the body. This category of herbs assist the body in adapting to stress, whether the stress be metabolic, physical, or psychological. Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus) is often taken one to two weeks a month to support the metabolism of the body and to reduce the effects of stress. It also enhances energy and overall health and resistance.
And finally, those under stress need nutritional support. The B Vitamins, Vitamin C, and Calcium are often depleted, and their supplementation is often beneficial. And since L-Tryptophan, the amino acid often used for alleviating insomnia, is no longer available on the market, one may need to choose among these other nutrients.
The following is an Herbal Program that may be useful in treating insomnia.

• As needed Valerian, or Valerian combined with other relaxants and
In addition, try the following program:

• Week 1
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 2
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg of B1,3,6), 3 times daily
• Week 3
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 4
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg B1,3,6), 3 times daily
Janet Zand, OMD, L. Ac., is a respected naturopathic physician who lives and practices in the Los Angeles area. She has developed a unique and effective method of combining herbal medicine with nutrition, homeopathy and acupuncture. Her credentials include a Doctor of Naturopathy, Doctor of Oriental Medicine, and Certified Acupuncturist. Dr. Zand has over fifteen years of clinical experience treating with natural medicine, as well as having formulated her own line of herbal supplements.
————————————————————————————————————————–
Mind body :
Findings from a recent Stanford University Medical School study may come as no surprise: older and middle-age people reported sleeping better when they added regular exercise to their routine. After 16 weeks in a moderate intensity exercise program, subjects were able to fall asleep about 15 minutes earlier and sleep about 45 minutes longer at night.
Researchers selected 29 women and 14 men with mild sleep complaints for a 16-week controlled study. All participants were age 50 to 74, lived sedentary lives, and suffered no cardiovascular disease, stroke or other clinically diagnosed disorder known to cause sleep disorders. All were non-smokers and moderate drinkers. None were seriously overweight or taking hormone replacement therapy, sleep medications or other medications known to affect sleep.
Participants exercised at least four times a week. Twice a week they participated in an organized aerobics class, which included 30 minutes of endurance training. The other two times they exercised on their own, doing 40 minutes of brisk walking or stationary bike riding. To assess impact on sleep, researchers looked at factors such as how long it takes to fall asleep, total hours of sleep per night, how often one wakes up, how one feels when waking up, and daytime function.
The link between aerobic exercise and sleep may seem obvious, but until this study, there has been very little controlled research to support this “conventional wisdom.” Researchers were especially concerned about the overemphasis on sedative hypnotic medications for older adults. Though they are only 20% of the population, older Americans receive almost half the medications prescribed to aid sleep. The potential side effects of these drugs-confusion, falls, extended drowsiness, agitation, and interactions with other medications-can be especially problematic for this age group. Until this study, there have been very few attempts to identify effective non-drug approaches to treating mild sleep disorders.
The study also provides further evidence of the interactions of mind and body. In this case improving physical health shows a positive impact on the mind.
RX: Self-Care Tips 
Try exercise to help your sleep. Here are some tips.
• A drop in body temperature aids sound sleep. So time your exercise five to six hours before bedtime.
• Make your exercise vigorous enough to make you sweat a little. Previous studies have shown that non-aerobic stretching and concentration exercises alone did not impart sleep.
• Stick with it! Participants in this study did not report improved sleep until they had been exercising for 16 weeks.
——————————————————————————————————————————-

—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@call south.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:24:08 AM EST
To: “ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

I can’t agree with your statement about needing a form of sedation to be functional or being overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis.  I also don’t think there is any mystery involved with addicts other than all the usual life questions or the recovery solution.    Tis amazing what we can learn about drugs, how to get them, adapt them, use them even if we don’t want to learn other things.  Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.   Allison

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:29:06 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear List,

If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug addiction it is this:

Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.)

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.

What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the drug addiction community nowhere fast.

I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to help me do as I say, not as I do.

I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – there are others, victims of war,…..). If you need proof of what I am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice…. Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:20:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PLEASE NEVER APOLOGIZE FOR BASHING BUSH AS HE’LL  SUCK THE PACIFIST RIGHT OUT OF YOUR SOUL,IMHO
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:11:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie, I was thinking the same thing.                  Randy

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:06:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel
all right now….

The original article can be found on SFGate.com here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL
———————————————————————
Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP)
Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes
By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer

(02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) —

In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly
stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a
lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism.

Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a
Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests
and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class
is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by
exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist.

The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up
misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do
not carry out.

“An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was
told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari,
secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group,
co-sponsor of the class.

Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of
driving the devil from someone’s body.

Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are
merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on
people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get
carried away and invent mystical gestures.

“Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an
exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and
prayer.

In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades
of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right.
Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to
psychological problems.

“All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,”
Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars.

The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed
to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual
killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of
Satan.”

One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may
have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification
of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year
and buried alive.

Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people
who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely
monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the
Internet.

“It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness
and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of
Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the
devil’s lure to young people.

The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a
conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher
Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request,
senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics.

“In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even
theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'”

The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an
Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories.

Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the
1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and
demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when
the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out
devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in
deciding who should be exorcised.

The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a
reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that
the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of
homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.”

A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his
memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian
woman who was screaming and writhing.

___

Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report.

———————————————————————-
Copyright 2005 AP

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:50:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What if they are mass murderers? Are you still gone watch and do nothing?
Not saying anything is like hiding your had in the sand.
Saying you don’t like it is your right. I don’t think you should feel
That you need to apologize.
S.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2005 3:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 12:19:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I and most of the others would
get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our
feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in
acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be
inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I, I, not You.
I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” <

Darn it, see what I went and did here? I wrote “we, and we,” not “I would get so frustrated,” but “we would get so…etc.” That’s silly. How do I know how they felt? I have no idea really. I can really only honestly speak for me. Right?
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did actually pick up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program, to try and stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize things. Sitting in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the others would get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I, I, not You. I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every single time I read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME, and what is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually realize it or not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try to take the “but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against YOU? What do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about ME and how I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a result of what YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.
Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices Nick- what do YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 12:15:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

you and your friend both got it from this direction martee.
best of thoughts and affections your ways.

Peace and love and lots of light, warmth and laughter,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: m.finman
To: ibo
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:37 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer

Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any who will.  Someone near and very dear to me is currently in session.  I feel collective prayer is like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.
Martee

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Methadone review article raises more questions than it answers!
Date: February 18, 2005 at 12:05:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: Methadone review article raises more questions than it answers!

Simoens S, Matheson C, Bond C, Inkster K, Ludbrook A. The effectiveness of community maintenance with methadone or buprenorphine for treating opiate dependence. British Journal of General Practice (2005) 139-146

Dear Colleagues,
It is always gratifying to see dependency subjects covered in mainstream journals.  This should raise awareness of effective opioid maintenance and other therapies for addictions amongst front line health workers.  However, this ‘Review Article’ would be more likely to turn interested GPs, nurses or pharmacists away from being involved in addiction treatments.

The authors quote comparative research which consistently shows buprenorphine to be slightly but significantly inferior to methadone in most outcome measures.  Yet their contradictory conclusion states: “. the evidence suggests that . buprenorphine may even be more effective than methadone, depending on dose”.

While comparisons between methadone and buprenorphine are worth mentioning, these authors seem to read the literature to find out which is ‘best’.  Few would spend time arguing the general ‘superiority’ of one antibiotic over another.  In doing so they miss the point that neither is used altogether appropriately in the UK (or most other countries).  A review article might be expected to address better ways of matching patient to treatment, yet this is largely ignored here despite some useful recent research on the subject, including those with HIV, pregnancy, fast metabolism, etc.

They write further: “There was some evidence that primary care could be an effective setting [for opioid maintenance treatment] but such evidence was sparse”.  This academic peccadillo also applies to insulin, warfarin or most other pharmacotherapies.  Although most research is performed clinics, few would doubt its extension to community practice.  It seems that these authors lack confidence in the Cochrane contributors on the subjects.  The lingering doubts expressed by the authors might deny treatment to most of the patient population while we wait for yet more research!

One of the most important messages of this review paper, UK treatment standards, is almost buried towards the end.  Exemplifying understatement (and some clumsy English) we are told: “With respect to community maintenance with methadone . higher doses of methadone are more effective. This is important because surveys of current prescribing practices of GPs in the UK suggest that methadone may still be underdosed.”  [In fact the mean dose in the UK is less than 40mg daily.  While this is a good starting level it is only half the ‘plateau’ dose needed for optimum results.]

Thus the authors (all but one from Aberdeen) avoid properly addressing the scandal of methadone treatment in the UK which continues unaddressed to this day.  Dependent citizens may thus drop out of inadequate treatment, relapse to heroin use, overdose or contract viral infections while the medical profession gets a bad name for gross mismanagement of opioid dependency.  A similar state of affairs for diabetics, hypertensives or arthritis patients could make an election issue.

After apparently searching the literature for negative items, our current authors also state: ‘higher doses of methadone may increase craving for heroin and decrease subjective wellbeing’.  This is based on one very small study which has never been replicated (Curran et al, Addiction 1999 94:665). The findings conflict with 2000 years of recorded experience where additional opioids are generally associated with reduced cravings and increased feelings of well being in the acute situation.  The Addiction editor wrote to me that there may indeed have been a statistical error in this study but he declined to allow any correspondence on the matter, leaving its rather outlandish sentiments uncontested in the literature.  One assumes that these ‘Review Article’ authors would have read the reference carefully before quoting its title.  John Strang wrote recently that methadone may yet have a ‘sting in the tail’.

After 40 years of clinical experience methadone is no longer “on trial”. The question is why people still express lingering yet unfounded doubts about its safety and effectiveness when used according to established practice guidelines.  It appears that buprenorphine is in the same category.

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:57:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did actually pick up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program, to try and stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize things. Sitting in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the others would get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I, I, not You. I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every single time I read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME, and what is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually realize it or not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try to take the “but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against YOU? What do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about ME and how I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a result of what YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.
Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices Nick- what do YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:46:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg

— “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net> wrote:
Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any
who will.  Someone near and very dear to me is
currently in session.  I feel collective prayer is
like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.

Martee

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Power of Love/just wanted to share
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:41:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HOpe you are well,
Thank you for real for sending this:

— “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net> wrote:
When a woman in a certain African tribe knows she
is pregnant, she goes out
into the wilderness with a few friends and
together they pray and meditate
until they hear the song of the child.  They
recognize that every soul has
its own vibration that expresses its unique flavor
and purpose.  When the
women attune to the song, they sing it out loud.
Then they return to the
tribe and teach it to everyone else.

When the child is born, the community gathers and
sings the child’s song to
him or her.  Later, when the child enters
education, the village gathers
and chants the child’s song.  When the child
passes through the initiation
to adulthood, the people again come together and
sing.  At the time of
marriage, the person hears his or her song.

Finally, when the soul is about to pass from this
world, the family and
friends gather at the person’s bed, just as they
did at their birth, and
they sing the person to the next life.

In the African tribe there is one other occasion
upon which the villagers
sing to the child.  If at any time during a
person’s life, he or she
commits a crime or aberrant social act, that
individual is called to stand
in the center of a circle formed by all members of
the tribe.  Once again
the villagers chant the child’s song.

The tribe recognizes that the correction for
antisocial behavior is not
punishment; it is love and the remembrance of
identity.  When you recognize
your own song, you have no desire or need to do
anything that would hurt
another.

A friend is someone who knows your song and sings
it to you when you have
forgotten it.  Those who love you are not fooled
by mistakes you have made
or dark images you hold about yourself  They
remember your beauty when you
feel ugly; your wholeness when you are broken;
your innocence when you feel
guilty; and your purpose when you are confused.

You may not have grown up in an African tribe that
sings your song to you
at crucial life transitions, but life is always
reminding you when you are
in tune with yourself and when you are not.  When
you feel good, what you
are doing matches your song, and when you feel
awful, it doesn’t.  In the
end, we shall all recognize our song and sing it
well  You may feel a
little wobbly at the moment, but so have all the
great singers.  Just keep
singing and you’ll find your way home.

********************************

© Alan Cohen

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:38:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes 🙂 Yes 🙂 Yes 🙂

Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.



Close your eyes
Look deep in your soul
Step outside yourself
And let your mind go

Close your eyes
And forget your name
Step outside yourself
And let your thoughts drain


Smiling Faces

Can you dig it?

– S. k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:37:20 PM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any who will.  Someone near and very dear to me is currently in session.  I feel collective prayer is like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.
Martee
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Power of Love/just wanted to share
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:27:44 PM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When a woman in a certain African tribe knows she is pregnant, she goes out
into the wilderness with a few friends and together they pray and meditate
until they hear the song of the child.  They recognize that every soul has
its own vibration that expresses its unique flavor and purpose.  When the
women attune to the song, they sing it out loud.  Then they return to the
tribe and teach it to everyone else.

When the child is born, the community gathers and sings the child’s song to
him or her.  Later, when the child enters education, the village gathers
and chants the child’s song.  When the child passes through the initiation
to adulthood, the people again come together and sing.  At the time of
marriage, the person hears his or her song.

Finally, when the soul is about to pass from this world, the family and
friends gather at the person’s bed, just as they did at their birth, and
they sing the person to the next life.

In the African tribe there is one other occasion upon which the villagers
sing to the child.  If at any time during a person’s life, he or she
commits a crime or aberrant social act, that individual is called to stand
in the center of a circle formed by all members of the tribe.  Once again
the villagers chant the child’s song.

The tribe recognizes that the correction for antisocial behavior is not
punishment; it is love and the remembrance of identity.  When you recognize
your own song, you have no desire or need to do anything that would hurt
another.

A friend is someone who knows your song and sings it to you when you have
forgotten it.  Those who love you are not fooled by mistakes you have made
or dark images you hold about yourself  They remember your beauty when you
feel ugly; your wholeness when you are broken; your innocence when you feel
guilty; and your purpose when you are confused.

You may not have grown up in an African tribe that sings your song to you
at crucial life transitions, but life is always reminding you when you are
in tune with yourself and when you are not.  When you feel good, what you
are doing matches your song, and when you feel awful, it doesn’t.  In the
end, we shall all recognize our song and sing it well  You may feel a
little wobbly at the moment, but so have all the great singers.  Just keep
singing and you’ll find your way home.

               ********************************
>© Alan Cohen

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:15:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Preston for this nice article.
Following on the subject of atrocities..
Here an article the price paid by the oldest democraty of South America
:Colombia for the drug War

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1411812,00.html

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte

you know, it’s stories like this that make me wonder
why there have not been more Bush assassination
attempts…I mean, where the fuck are all the crazies
when you need them…

not that I endorse assassination or anything, but come
on- this is f*cking ridiculous.

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 10:59:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Donna,
Actually you really don’t have to half cut anything if you’re doing only 3-4 days.  The thing for me was to always be comfortable and maybe then some.  I believe it was the generous dose for 3 days and maybe minimal if any on the 4th that the accumulative affect of those doses held me through any residual.  That whole weaning off thing does not apply because you aren’t addicted in 3 days to have to wean off of anything.  I NEVER let myself go past 4 days 3 preferably as that’s when I always felt I would be pushing my luck. Being in water, showers or baths would always give the most relief and also not sitting around focusing on if anything didn’t feel right.  I am not exagerating when I tell you this was discomfort free on the physical side.  It wasn’t until I did the ibogaine that I was able to really do what I thought was the unthinkable for me.
I wish you the best,
Martee
Ps. I was also wondering if you had considered weaning off the H before detoxing or weaning down?
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Martee
So Day 1 no H, enough meth to make me feel ok, then day 2 cut it in half, and day 3 cut dose in half again???? for example: day 1:80mls, day 2:40mls day 3:20mls day 4: nothing?  Is this what you mean????? if so is it not hurrendous on day 4, 5 and 6????
love Donna
ps: I really appreciate all your advice, thank you so muchxxxxxxxxxx

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:25:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga (long )
Date: February 17, 2005 at 8:15:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt !

Here some help 🙂

Ayurvedic:

Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera)
Dr. Shailinder Sodhi, N.D., an expert in Ayurvedic medicine from Bellevue, Washington, says, “Ashwagandha provides a sense of wellbeing with a decrease in anxiety. Users feel mellow. It is also a good aphrodisiac.” Lise Alschuler, N.D., Chair of the Botanical Medicine Department at Bastyr University in Seattle, Washington, adds, “My clinical experience indicates that ashwagandha reduces anxiety and is helpful for insomnia. I recommend it for patients who are tense and need a calming herb. They can think more clearly after being relaxed.”
—————————————————————————————————-

Herbal medecine:
In this world, we all are faced with the effects of a stressful lifestyle. The “stress” symptoms most commonly seen by the health care practitioner are insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness. Fortunately, there are alternatives to the use of prescription medications– many herbal and nutritional remedies work quite well!
The western herbs that act as relaxants as well as nervine tonics are beneficial. These include Valerian, Passion Flower, Chamomile, Vervain, and Oatstraw. This category of herbs not only relaxes nervous tension, but also tones the nervous system. Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) is the most popular of this category, and has been shown in studies to enhance sleep quality with no side-effects the next morning.
Adaptogenic herbs such as Siberian Ginseng and American Ginseng are also useful. The symptoms of insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness are often signs of deep metabolic stress in the body. This category of herbs assist the body in adapting to stress, whether the stress be metabolic, physical, or psychological. Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus) is often taken one to two weeks a month to support the metabolism of the body and to reduce the effects of stress. It also enhances energy and overall health and resistance.
And finally, those under stress need nutritional support. The B Vitamins, Vitamin C, and Calcium are often depleted, and their supplementation is often beneficial. And since L-Tryptophan, the amino acid often used for alleviating insomnia, is no longer available on the market, one may need to choose among these other nutrients.
The following is an Herbal Program that may be useful in treating insomnia.

• As needed Valerian, or Valerian combined with other relaxants and
In addition, try the following program:

• Week 1
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 2
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg of B1,3,6), 3 times daily
• Week 3
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 4
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg B1,3,6), 3 times daily
Janet Zand, OMD, L. Ac., is a respected naturopathic physician who lives and practices in the Los Angeles area. She has developed a unique and effective method of combining herbal medicine with nutrition, homeopathy and acupuncture. Her credentials include a Doctor of Naturopathy, Doctor of Oriental Medicine, and Certified Acupuncturist. Dr. Zand has over fifteen years of clinical experience treating with natural medicine, as well as having formulated her own line of herbal supplements.
————————————————————————————————————————–
Mind body :
Findings from a recent Stanford University Medical School study may come as no surprise: older and middle-age people reported sleeping better when they added regular exercise to their routine. After 16 weeks in a moderate intensity exercise program, subjects were able to fall asleep about 15 minutes earlier and sleep about 45 minutes longer at night.
Researchers selected 29 women and 14 men with mild sleep complaints for a 16-week controlled study. All participants were age 50 to 74, lived sedentary lives, and suffered no cardiovascular disease, stroke or other clinically diagnosed disorder known to cause sleep disorders. All were non-smokers and moderate drinkers. None were seriously overweight or taking hormone replacement therapy, sleep medications or other medications known to affect sleep.
Participants exercised at least four times a week. Twice a week they participated in an organized aerobics class, which included 30 minutes of endurance training. The other two times they exercised on their own, doing 40 minutes of brisk walking or stationary bike riding. To assess impact on sleep, researchers looked at factors such as how long it takes to fall asleep, total hours of sleep per night, how often one wakes up, how one feels when waking up, and daytime function.
The link between aerobic exercise and sleep may seem obvious, but until this study, there has been very little controlled research to support this “conventional wisdom.” Researchers were especially concerned about the overemphasis on sedative hypnotic medications for older adults. Though they are only 20% of the population, older Americans receive almost half the medications prescribed to aid sleep. The potential side effects of these drugs-confusion, falls, extended drowsiness, agitation, and interactions with other medications-can be especially problematic for this age group. Until this study, there have been very few attempts to identify effective non-drug approaches to treating mild sleep disorders.
The study also provides further evidence of the interactions of mind and body. In this case improving physical health shows a positive impact on the mind.
RX: Self-Care Tips 
Try exercise to help your sleep. Here are some tips.
• A drop in body temperature aids sound sleep. So time your exercise five to six hours before bedtime.
• Make your exercise vigorous enough to make you sweat a little. Previous studies have shown that non-aerobic stretching and concentration exercises alone did not impart sleep.
• Stick with it! Participants in this study did not report improved sleep until they had been exercising for 16 weeks.
——————————————————————————————————————————-

—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 6:30:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy
Thanks buddy:] i will do a search and go to my doctor asap….6 hours of sleep would be a gift from heaven…haha funny doctor eh….unfortunetly the only sex i will be having now is with my right hand heh:]
Much apprieciated..Best Regards
matt

>From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:15:57 EST > >Matt, my mother tells me it was Remeron. That sounds right. Do a google or >whatever to find out what you can. My Doc gave them to me instead of the benzo’s >he promised and pissed me off royally. He did the right thing. They did help >about as much as the bezo’s I got on my own. I would get 5 or 6 hours of sleep >every time I melted one on my tongue. I never tried two because I didn’t want >to feel any weirder than I already was feeling. Let me say this before >someone else does, sex helps with this issue too. Couldn’t suck worse than not >sleepin’. (he said suck, huhu) Good luck dude, stick around. Randy

Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A position
Date: February 17, 2005 at 6:19:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 16/02/2005 22:40:21 GMT Standard Time, jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au writes:
Hi Jasen,
How are you, you sound really well and positive which is great.
Although I am still strong,..I am not comfortable in my home now or my surroundings,I have some
big decisions to make.

Why dont you move the world is your oyster!!! fresh start might be great for you!!!

It’s like I am being taught to handle life’s pressures,challenges,and make big decisions whilst
haze free. It says,”can you handle it man?” and I say” f*ck yes I can handle it,..but settle down a bit ay.

Thats because you can handle lifes pressures, you are strong, and the drugs are not supressing you anymore, do you feel ready to settle down???? if you are go for it, but if you are not sure do not rush into anything, i think you are the best judge of whats right for you now.  I will be as positive as you soon, very soon.  I have spoken with Sara and she said I can pop over and see her, I was hoping to do this at the weekend, but I cant. I will do it when I get back im off on holiday for a week.

Thank you so much for all your advice.

Take care of youxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 6:15:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt, my mother tells me it was Remeron. That sounds right. Do a google or whatever to find out what you can. My Doc gave them to me instead of the benzo’s he promised and pissed me off royally. He did the right thing. They did help about as much as the bezo’s I got on my own. I would get 5 or 6 hours of sleep every time I melted one on my tongue. I never tried two because I didn’t want to feel any weirder than I already was feeling. Let me say this before someone else does, sex helps with this issue too. Couldn’t suck worse than not sleepin’. (he said suck, huhu) Good luck dude, stick around.                 Randy

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:23:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy
Anything that would help would be much apreciated–but no sedatives/tranqulaizers/benzos–done with that shit:}}
Best Regards
Matt

>From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:59:17 EST > >Matt, after Ibo my Doc gave me some kind of anti depressant that really >helped. I can’t remember what it was so I’ll call him Friday and find out. It >wasn’t Elavil. I’ve been meaning to call him and thank him for helping me anyway. 5 >months later I still sleep sporadically. I always did though. I’ve never had >”normal” sleep patterns and I think that is true with a lot of us. It is good >to see more people using Ibogaine. Randy

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:19:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey:}
The only reason im taking the melatonin and other suplements is beacasuse im worried i wont be able to sleep at all:{{ AS for dreams when i do sleep the are very vivid,symbolic ,colorfull:}]
Best Regards
matt

>From: “” <thethird@myway.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:42:22 -0500 (EST) > > >Hey Matt, for me it was hard to get exercise after Ibo, because I was exhausted all the time from lack of sleep, but if it’s possible to physically run your body, and then take a hot bath, maybe you could get some sleep. Also, I’ve heard of people who have reverse reactions to downers, where they actually feel peppy from taking them. Do you think maybe you’d sleep better without the melatonin, or do you notice that it makes you a little drowsy? I wondered because you said that you had insomnia while on opiates/benzos. I feel for you because I am the type of person who gets real crabby when I don’t sleep. Good Luck and let me know if you find something that worksLaura P.S. when you do get some sleep, how is your dream content? Do you have vivid dreams or don’t you remember them at all? Just curious.— On Thu 02/17, matthew zielinski &lt; mattzielinski@hotmail.com &gt; wrote:From: matthew zielinski [mailto: mattzielinski@hotmail.com]To: ibogaine@mindvox.comDate: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:13 -0800Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga > > > > > >Hi all >Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions? >REgards >Matt > > > >Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] ]=———————————————————————=[/ > > >_______________________________________________ >No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. >Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:59:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt, after Ibo my Doc gave me some kind of anti depressant that really helped. I can’t remember what it was so I’ll call him Friday and find out. It wasn’t Elavil. I’ve been meaning to call him and thank him for helping me anyway. 5 months later I still sleep sporadically. I always did though. I’ve never had “normal” sleep patterns and I think that is true with a lot of us. It is good to see more people using Ibogaine.         Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:51:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Why people are so judgmental about determinate drugz ?

When I was In Afganistan, in Kabul in the 70s. I’ve seen a bunch of opium
house and I went to visit a couple .
Basicly, what I saw : kids laying down on carpet smoking opium. Something ,
I remember clearly  the noise of the succion on the pipes. Another thing
peculiar: the Opium house will never open theirs wood shutters. Never!!!.
The door will open briefly to let enter a smoker. I have seen kids stuck for
month in theses dark room. I have seen later English  teenager girls selling
for few roupies theirs bodies in the crowded bordello of Delhi.I’ ve seen a
German jounalist who could barely walk out of his room and was sweeting
something yellow. Lying on his bed, skinny as Gandhi he use to tell me , –
“look, I am sweeting my brain out.” …..

I have no simpathy for thief that you previously trust.

For me this type of drugs are thiefs that rob men and women from theirs
dignity and birth right to be happy.
francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users
rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I
find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also
true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots
when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some
cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know
so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be
done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard
to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that,
take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I
hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:42:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Matt, for me it was hard to get exercise after Ibo, because I was exhausted all the time from lack of sleep, but if it’s possible to physically run your body, and then take a hot bath, maybe you could get some sleep. Also, I’ve heard of people who have reverse reactions to downers, where they actually feel peppy from taking them. Do you think maybe you’d sleep better without the melatonin, or do you notice that it makes you a little drowsy? I wondered because you said that you had insomnia while on opiates/benzos. I feel for you because I am the type of person who gets real crabby when I don’t sleep.
Good Luck and let me know if you find something that works
Laura

P.S. when you do get some sleep, how is your dream content? Do you have vivid dreams or don’t you remember them at all? Just curious.

— On Thu 02/17, matthew zielinski < mattzielinski@hotmail.com > wrote:

From: matthew zielinski [mailto: mattzielinski@hotmail.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:13 -0800
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] ]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:33:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:02:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

/]=—————————————————————
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:46:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote >For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.<

Hey, what do you know, I somewhat agree with you here Nick!
;-)))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 19:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, don’t you think all the promotion for the war on drugs is another reason that discrimination against drug users continues?

Hi Laura,

Yes, I do.  I mean by no means is it an easy position. That was also the case for blacks, gays and other groups socially and governmentally discriminated against. The thing I was saying was that to change media and government attitudes these guys usually had to join together, form pressure groups and become politically active themselves. I can’t imagine that the shift in say US civil rights for black citizens would have occurred without the massive input from the group affected. If this is true then it seems reasonable that addicts may have to follow the same path. You can say that this isn’t democratic, I would agree. But it’s just that history unfortunately seems to show that this is how things work.

It’s hard to convince people to see drug users in a different light when the media all around them is infested with propaganda against drugs. Also, a majority of drug users themselves listen to what is being said about them and decide that they have a ‘disease’ that needs to be cured, and further promote the idea that drug users should be treated differently until they get ‘back to their senses’. When you become convinced that they are right, you generally don’t put up a fight. You also bring up the idea that things have changed for gays, but when I look around, I don’t see a lot of progressive change. Measures just passed making it illegal for gays to marry in many states, and I hear the word ‘fag’ used as a derogatory term on a regular basis.

In relation to some of your earlier posts, you always bring up your opinion that heroin represses feel ings, and that may be true for some people, but for me personally, it was different. There were many details of my past that I never thought about until I did heroin. I didn’t even know I was running from these past events until I found myself thinking about them while high. Heroin actually relaxed me to the point where I could mentally bring issues up and think about them without having my defense mechanisms block the thoughts. This obviously is not the case for all people, but it actually helped me in a way.

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

In the late 90s I paid to stick up a load of posters around central London with messages like “1% of people in this city are addicted to one of the world’s most powerful painkillers – heroin.” My intent was to bring about some street level demystification. Don’t know how well it worked, probably just a drop in the ocean.

Nick

It would be pointless for me to continue to keep taking heroin for that reason, because it has served it’s purpose in that area, but it did help. Did you ever read Diary of a Drug Fiend? I know it’s probably somewhat of a cliche to bring this book up, but I read it a long time ago, and, if I remember correctly, Crowley brought up the point that drugs can be used to obtain certain goals, and this is not bad or evil, but it can be bad when drugs are keeping you from what YOUR pur pose is (not a purpose that someone else has decided for you, mind you). If I am totally misconstruing the book, I’m sorry, it’s been awhile, but that’s what I remember. I do understand what you mean about some people using opiates to run from feelings, as I have seen this myself, but substances don’t act the same on everyone, and I truly think that some people get something from opiates that benefits them.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, Sara Glatt < sara119@xs4all.nl > wrote:

From: Sara Glatt [mailto: sara119@xs4all.nl]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:12 +0100
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwe rp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
t hen further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indian s got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:35:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a definite risk to speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights, they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also investigations and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could be gay and not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are using/buying/selling illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ crime, to the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly believe Nick, no matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users shouldn’t be using unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee. Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came here. I don’t think that they are really treated any better now then they were then. Seems like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE. Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites, wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted and keep the job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces when they can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and everyone else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does society really want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the skeletons in just about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:21:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.<

I can’t help but be reminded of all the anti-marijuana propaganda about how pot makes users lethargic and uninspired and lackadasical Nick, and how even with all the propaganda pot users got up and changed the laws in what is it, 11 states in the US in the last few years- and yet, in many of them, while the cops and prohibitionists said over and over “if you don’t like the law, change it,” and the users did so, the cops and prohibitionists insist that it doesn’t matter, that pot is still evil and the users still must pay some kind of penalty, even if just a trip downtown and a ticket.
Every time you write something like this Nick, what I mainly see is your own personal predjudice against opiates.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:13:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ll do whatever is in my power to do.     Randy

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:11:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

you know, it’s stories like this that make me wonder
why there have not been more Bush assassination
attempts…I mean, where the fuck are all the crazies
when you need them…

not that I endorse assassination or anything, but come
on- this is f*cking ridiculous.

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:10:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 19:36
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee. Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came here. I don’t think that they are really treated any better now then they were then. Seems like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE. Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites, wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted and keep the job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces when they can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and everyone else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does society really want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the skeletons in just about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

Hey Randy,

Well, I’m in the UK and don’t know so much about the plight of the native Americans but I’m sure you’re right. But it seems to me you’re finding a negative outcome to push for doing nothing – society’s fucked up and that’s how it is. I don’t take that position, personally. For sure, society will turn a blind eye and just sit in a prejudicial position given half a chance. But what if you take a position against that? Why not become the Martin Luther King of addicts? Someone’s gonna have to give it a try.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:05:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 19:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, don’t you think all the promotion for the war on drugs is another reason that discrimination against drug users continues?

Hi Laura,

Yes, I do.  I mean by no means is it an easy position. That was also the case for blacks, gays and other groups socially and governmentally discriminated against. The thing I was saying was that to change media and government attitudes these guys usually had to join together, form pressure groups and become politically active themselves. I can’t imagine that the shift in say US civil rights for black citizens would have occurred without the massive input from the group affected. If this is true then it seems reasonable that addicts may have to follow the same path. You can say that this isn’t democratic, I would agree. But it’s just that history unfortunately seems to show that this is how things work.

It’s hard to convince people to see drug users in a different light when the media all around them is infested with propaganda against drugs. Also, a majority of drug users themselves listen to what is being said about them and decide that they have a ‘disease’ that needs to be cured, and further promote the idea that drug users should be treated differently until they get ‘back to their senses’. When you become convinced that they are right, you generally don’t put up a fight. You also bring up the idea that things have changed for gays, but when I look around, I don’t see a lot of progressive change. Measures just passed making it illegal for gays to marry in many states, and I hear the word ‘fag’ used as a derogatory term on a regular basis.

In relation to some of your earlier posts, you always bring up your opinion that heroin represses feel ings, and that may be true for some people, but for me personally, it was different. There were many details of my past that I never thought about until I did heroin. I didn’t even know I was running from these past events until I found myself thinking about them while high. Heroin actually relaxed me to the point where I could mentally bring issues up and think about them without having my defense mechanisms block the thoughts. This obviously is not the case for all people, but it actually helped me in a way.

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

In the late 90s I paid to stick up a load of posters around central London with messages like “1% of people in this city are addicted to one of the world’s most powerful painkillers – heroin.” My intent was to bring about some street level demystification. Don’t know how well it worked, probably just a drop in the ocean.

Nick

It would be pointless for me to continue to keep taking heroin for that reason, because it has served it’s purpose in that area, but it did help. Did you ever read Diary of a Drug Fiend? I know it’s probably somewhat of a cliche to bring this book up, but I read it a long time ago, and, if I remember correctly, Crowley brought up the point that drugs can be used to obtain certain goals, and this is not bad or evil, but it can be bad when drugs are keeping you from what YOUR pur pose is (not a purpose that someone else has decided for you, mind you). If I am totally misconstruing the book, I’m sorry, it’s been awhile, but that’s what I remember. I do understand what you mean about some people using opiates to run from feelings, as I have seen this myself, but substances don’t act the same on everyone, and I truly think that some people get something from opiates that benefits them.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, Sara Glatt < sara119@xs4all.nl > wrote:

From: Sara Glatt [mailto: sara119@xs4all.nl]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:12 +0100
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwe rp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

> —–Original Message—–
> From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
> Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
>
>
> Dear Francis,
>
> First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
> term?
>
> As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
> we can go
> back
> in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
> experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
> individual but, how
> they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how
> one may be viewed
> and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my
> mind the
> harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
> conventions that
> mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
> t hen further
> defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
> punishable by long
> prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
> not only tracked
> by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
> drugs in
> order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
> resulted in
> greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
> stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
> significantly increase the
> psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
> simply to create
> an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
> and makes
> worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
> users in society
> in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
> in states
> where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
> terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
> that I have heralded
> ibogaine for so much of my life.
>
> Howard
>

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indian s got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:04:43 PM EST
To: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My friend and one of my heros Cele Castillo, lead DEA agent on the ground in El Salvador and a few other countries during the 80s (a hero even with his years as an anti-drug warrior- but he’s a bit changed nowadays) sent me (and a bunch of others too) this editorial this morning, in honor of Bush’s nominee, John D. Negroponte (how in the heck this guy isn’t serving time I do not…oh, hold on, he’s one of the insiders, of course I know, what am I thinking…must be this darned flu, has me feeling a bit befuddleded).
Enjoy.

http://www.drugwar.com/castillonegroponte.shtm

“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him”.
Revelation 6:7
The Atrocities of a Pale Rider-
John D. Negroponte
by
Celerino Castillo 3rd
posted at DrugWar.com
Feb. 17, 2005
The above biblical quotation is the only way I can describe John Dimitri Negroponte because of the atrocities he’s previously committed around the world.

From 1971 to 1973, Negroponte was the officer-in charge for Vietnam at the National Security Council under Henry Kissinger. During that period, former DEA Michael Levine was conducting undercover operations in Saigon, Thailand, and Cambodia where our government was smuggling heroin into the U.S. Our government was utilizing caskets and body bags of those “Killed In Action” to smuggled the heroin.

From 1981-1985, Negroponte was U.S. Ambassador to Honduras, where he illegally assisted the contra war and, most devastating, helped the Reagan administration in “disappearing” close to 300 political opponents in classic death squad fashion. He supervised the creation of the El Aguacate air base, which the Contras used as a secret detention and torture center. In August 2001, excavations at the base discovered 185 corpses, including two American missionaries. In May 1982, a nun, Sister Laetitia Bordes went on a fact-finding delegation to Honduras to investigate the whereabouts of thirty Salvadoran nuns who fled to Honduras in 1981. Negroponte claimed the embassy knew nothing. But in 1996, a U.S. newspaper interviewed Negroponte’s predecessor, Jack Binns. Binns said that a group of Salvadorans, among whom was Bordes, who had been captured on April 22, 1981, and savagely tortured by the Honduran Secret Police, and then later thrown out of helicopters, alive. Negroponte turned a deliberate blind eye to a murderous pattern of political killings. He orchestrated the famous death squad Battalion 316, which used shock and suffocation devices in interrogations. Prisoners were often kept naked and when no longer useful, killed and buried in unmarked graves. We have seen similar pictures of those atrocities committed by our service men and women in Iraq.

snip-

Lots more to make those of us with working hearts and minds really sick at the above URL

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:01:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy !
You wrote :
I’m sorry if I came across as a smart ass with my reply to you.

# Hey Randy , my question really look like a set up 🙂

Thank you for your help. I am saving all the idea and advices that I can get. I realize already that a month will be to short to accomplish a good foundation for a strong recovery. Seems like 3 months will be the perfect time frame. Two years is a long, long time, too long, then the individual will have hard time to adapt to our crazy world. I wil be using some powerful tools for change and in a couple of month you can have somebody fully motivated.Like a lion !!!.  One thing too, toward the end of the seminar
( I don’t like the word rehab ) each participant should know how to administrate Ibogaine and to take care of somebody else.
They don’t have to feel like patients anymore but like healers.In my humble opinion, this is very important. In Africa, specialy on the East coast , or for esample in Cuba, the patient is initiated step by step to be himself a healer. If your social role is to cure, you are not anymore a patient. That is something I realy hated from AA/NA : ” my name is Tom I am an addict or alcoholic. Here we create and maintain a problem of identity. Even a full blown alcoholic in his last days of drinking, is a man who had an allergy to alcohol. and have a problem with the substance. I mean, that how I feel.Why to put a label on somebody ?

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, I’m sorry if I came across as a smart ass with my reply to you, I guess I was feeling funny at the time. Anyway, I can see that your serious about this, and what you said about your place sounds a lot like the one a very good friend of mine and I were talking about starting in Kentucky. I feel very grateful that my friend would think enough of me to want to include me in even planning such a place. This guy has credentials in addiction and recovery and he is as serious as a heart attack about doing something like what you are talking about. I was in a residential treatment program for two and a half years. We ran the place. Everyone had a job and you had to do well to move up and get out of there. It changed me for the better but, way too many rules, and it took way to long to complete. I think some kind of 3 month program would be just about right. Get them Ibogaine treatment legally wherever, and then get them in the program and help them with sleep issues and the feelings that pop up during the first 2 weeks. Computers, musical instruments, all kinds of self help books and philosophy books, putting green, trails, deer observation stands in the woods, I could go on but, you get my meaning. BI weekly therapy for the first month and then weekly, someone available for stress issues at any time. We’ve talked about this at length and we both think that this will really help some people. At the end of this program we would try and help them on the path that they choose. I think the biggest thing would to be flexible and open minded. Now all we need is for Ibogaine to be legal and the cost would come down hugely for everyone involved.         Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 2:36:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee. Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came here. I don’t think that they are really treated any better now then they were then. Seems like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE. Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites, wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted and keep the job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces when they can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and everyone else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does society really want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the skeletons in just about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 2:05:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, don’t you think all the promotion for the war on drugs is another reason that discrimination against drug users continues? It’s hard to convince people to see drug users in a different light when the media all around them is infested with propaganda against drugs. Also, a majority of drug users themselves listen to what is being said about them and decide that they have a ‘disease’ that needs to be cured, and further promote the idea that drug users should be treated differently until they get ‘back to their senses’. When you become convinced that they are right, you generally don’t put up a fight. You also bring up the idea that things have changed for gays, but when I look around, I don’t see a lot of progressive change. Measures just passed making it illegal for gays to marry in many states, and I hear the word ‘fag’ used as a derogatory term on a regular basis.

In relation to some of your earlier posts, you always bring up your opinion that heroin represses feelings, and that may be true for some people, but for me personally, it was different. There were many details of my past that I never thought about until I did heroin. I didn’t even know I was running from these past events until I found myself thinking about them while high. Heroin actually relaxed me to the point where I could mentally bring issues up and think about them without having my defense mechanisms block the thoughts. This obviously is not the case for all people, but it actually helped me in a way. It would be pointless for me to continue to keep taking heroin for that reason, because it has served it’s purpose in that area, but it did help. Did you ever read Diary of a Drug Fiend? I know it’s probably somewhat of a cliche to bring this book up, but I read it a long time ago, and, if I remember correctly, Crowley brought up the point that drugs can be used to obtain certain goals, and this is not bad or evil, but it can be bad when drugs are keeping you from what YOUR purpose is (not a purpose that someone else has decided for you, mind you). If I am totally misconstruing the book, I’m sorry, it’s been awhile, but that’s what I remember. I do understand what you mean about some people using opiates to run from feelings, as I have seen this myself, but substances don’t act the same on everyone, and I truly think that some people get something from opiates that benefits them.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, Sara Glatt < sara119@xs4all.nl > wrote:

From: Sara Glatt [mailto: sara119@xs4all.nl]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:12 +0100
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

> —–Original Message—–
> From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
> Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
>
>
> Dear Francis,
>
> First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
> term?
>
> As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
> we can go
> back
> in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
> experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
> individual but, how
> they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how
> one may be viewed
> and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my
> mind the
> harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
> conventions that
> mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
> t hen further
> defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
> punishable by long
> prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
> not only tracked
> by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
> drugs in
> order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
> resulted in
> greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
> stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
> significantly increase the
> psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
> simply to create
> an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
> and makes
> worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
> users in society
> in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
> in states
> where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
> terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
> that I have heralded
> ibogaine for so much of my life.
>
> Howard
>

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: <shamaness@adelphia.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogainepleezletgo
Date: February 17, 2005 at 1:58:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>MORE FUN!
>LESS STUFF!
>MAKE ART*
>NOT WAR :(
>LUV -
>NOT
>SUV!

zz

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:52:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:37:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:07:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Not sure about the States, but there ARE 21 day
methadone programs, but it seems most doctors/patients
shy away from them, as MAINTENANCE seems to be the
standard here in Toronto.  This is probably because,
like Martee said, the 21 day program is a joke, and
most people end up hooked on methadone.

I have never met anyone who has used a 21 day
methadone reduction program with success.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:49:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard
I was on a 21 day methadone “de-tox” at Bridge Plaza Clinic here in nyc (queens) many years ago. they started at 40mg’s and went down to 5 mg’s over 21 days…of course within 3-4 days of being cut loose I was hurting  badly ( iwas never really comfortable the entire few weeks)….they also had a 6 mo taper detox but again cut you loose at 5mg’s. That was a disaster for me as well imo they were insane to think someone could go from 5 mg’s and then to 0 on their own…. they would tell you to take some nyquil if you needed relief from the residual w/d’s.
when i went on the methadone program i was to be on for 10 years till 3 mos ago(!) they were a “maintenance” program and dosed high and never expected you to leave…when Mayor G came to power and welfare reform started they changed to a “methadone to abstinence” clinic (their words) and though they didn’t pressure me a lot they did  more than before and many others as well. They also put into place a ton of new rules about working and forced non-working patients to attend groups and all sorts of things ( i have always worked so do not know much about that but saw all the schedules and signs about them at the clinic)i am sure they would not have made me taper but they always suggested it whereas before they never even brought it up.When they did discuss tapering they said they will taper you down slowly as you like to 1 mg which I think is a much more realistic …
see  ya saturday
Jeff

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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 10:20:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Martee,
I tried the 3 day methadone trick a few years ago and was still having withdrawals, and that’s when I talked to some doctor in a clinic who explained why it wouldn’t work. But, maybe they just wanted me to get on MMT instead of trying it again and possibly succeeding and therefore losing that 80 bucks a week. Of course, I was also in no way ‘really’ wanting to stop, so that could have something to do with it not working.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:15:50 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Laura,
I never thought that to be the case. I never experienced that to be
the case. The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because
you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin
withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium.
Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know
that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to
addict you to methedone. Will the person who successfully walked away from
a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!! Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a
whole lot. Same with 2mgs! Needless to say once you are addicted to
methedone this does not apply.
This method is for the physical aspect only! But it beats the hell out
of some of the other options. The cravings were always there, but I believe
it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were
not physically motivated.
Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep
you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if
you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to
detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are
actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of
methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all
my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used
again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it
works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you
have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will
hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.
By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may
be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re
using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are
definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly
known thing? Just a thought.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted
to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the
easiest most painless way to get off heroin wi thout becoming an addicted to
another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but
the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me
personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and
provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:11:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Martee
So Day 1 no H, enough meth to make me feel ok, then day 2 cut it in half, and day 3 cut dose in half again???? for example: day 1:80mls, day 2:40mls day 3:20mls day 4: nothing?  Is this what you mean????? if so is it not hurrendous on day 4, 5 and 6????
love Donna
ps: I really appreciate all your advice, thank you so muchxxxxxxxxxx

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:07:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Martee

I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the gear!!!!.  I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, i’ll keep you posted

love donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:03:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee

I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the gear!!!!.  I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, i’ll keep you posted

love donna

From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 8:34:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard,
The methedone clinics that I’ve been aware of from NY to Calif. all offered a 21 day detox where you start at35mg for 1or 2 days go to 40 for 3or 4 days and then they take you down until on day 21 you are either on 5mgs because that is the lowest they can go with the form of methedone they use, or 2 mg if it is liquid.  As far as whatever works is ok, I agree, however, this doesn’t work even without considering the aspect that it’s only physical and one would still use.  It does work for them as it addicts you to methedone.  I’ve always seen this as the drug co’s hook!  I used to bounce back and forth from one clinic to the next doing stints on their 21 days because you had to wait a few weeks to do it again.  In california at that time 10.00 per day to have a place to get a dose to get well just helped me function better as a junkie if I needed it.
As far as being left at 5 mgs, people think it is such a relatively small number especially for someone that’s been dosed on 80 or over 100, you go through worse withdrawl off of 5mg that what you were trying to avoid in the first place.  I remember my first awareness of methedone was in the late 60’s.  They were little white pills and 5mgs each.  I recall one of these maybe 2 would completely get you well.  And the drugs were very potent back then if I recall correctly. This is another reason why I think the high doses just give you a tolerance and then they increase you.  All the years I was on the methedone maintainance the only time my dose would not hold me was when I was taking someother thing in the narcotic or pill world to get high.  It would eat up the methedone in my system and leave me really sick the next day.  Once during an extended hospitalization the antibiotics did this and I requested my dose broke up into 4xper day instead of once.  Once you’re sick it takes 3 days to get your dose adjusted back to your system.
I really thought all this stuff was in the junkie handbook and was common knowledge.  I don’t usually like to do the junkie rant thing, but you asked.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee,

I think that methadone can be used in various short term regimens to
significantly reduce opioid withdrawal.  What you have is cross tolerance to opioids,
going from heroin to methadone rather than “addiction” to one opioid for
another.   I am also not sure what you mean by a 21 day methadone taper? (my
words)  I was aware of 21 day inhospital programs where methadone and other
medications would be provided for the first seven days and then continuation of
sleeping medication or other adjunct medications until discharge.  If you stayed
for the entire program you would be 14 days off methadone.  Are there programs
where methadone is supplied for 21 days?  Probably so in this world and nothing
wrong with that but, can you or others following this thread provide
information on opioid reduction therapies/regimens you are aware of? Thanks. And,
anything that works is OK.

Howard

In a message dated 2/17/05 12:16:19 AM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:

<< Laura,

I never thought that to be the case.  I never experienced that to be

the case.  The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because

you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin

withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium.

Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know

that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to

addict you to methedone.  Will the person who successfully walked away from

a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!!  Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a

whole lot.  Same with 2mgs!   Needless to say once you are addicted to

methedone this does not apply.

This method is for the physical aspect only!  But it beats the hell out

of some of the other options.  The cravings were always there, but I believe

it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were

not physically motivated.

Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep

you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if

you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to

detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are

actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).

Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,

If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of

methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all

my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used

again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it

works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you

have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will

hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.

By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may

be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re

using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are

definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly

known thing? Just a thought.

Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted

to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the

easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to

another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but

the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me

personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and

provider hope this answers your question.

Take care

Love Donna >>

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:38:46 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s the same as the judgments, it’s making use of the Blacks and
the Whites, not just the greys. The mind has the power to distinguish for a
purpose, and it’s good.<

i find beauty in the blacks, whites AND greys Nick.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:33 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 20:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

I wrote >And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations
at opiate
users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each
and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.<

I must admit I didn’t know about the brother until I finished reading
Carla’s note, which I hadn’t done when firing off the last note.
It doesn’t
really change much, but it does give me personally more insight
to where you
might be coming from Nick. I did not know about your brother, and yes, I
imagine it might be rough to see a loved one go through what you
think is a
really bad space (and under current prohibition policies quite often is a
really bad space). But love instead of judgement I bet would be more
effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he
asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life”
(not that
you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway,
have a day all.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

Love vs Judgement. OK. Do some encounter groups, man, you’re gonna see that
they’re actually the same thing. I mean this. Really.

As to rehab, and a closely related thread. My position is that there’s no
easy answer to addiction, but that the easy answers are most definitely
useful. It’s the same as the judgments, it’s making use of the Blacks and
the Whites, not just the greys. The mind has the power to distinguish for a
purpose, and it’s good.

Nick

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:28:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

no, not that I know of, but don’t hold me to that.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Is it like Subutex???????????????

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:24:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and I think it’s spelled dilaudid.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:24:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

its what I’m prescribed for pain actually, along with morphine sulphate.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Hi
What is diladid????????

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:19:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I kicked dope by using methadon in London for a few days, just three or four, but that was it. and got off a fairly large habit (at least for a month or two before picking back up again), with little to no pain, substituting methadone for heroin.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:38:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 21:28
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny. I appreciate
your manners Preston. I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you
ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope
that shit
is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference. Otherwise it
just becomes preaching to the choir. It would be nice to have you guys go
somewhere with this all. Perhaps we are. No reason to yell.

A commune? Nick, for some reason that slipped my mind… Isn’t it
tough to
keep strident ideals in a community of individuals?

Hi Steve,

Yes, we don’t have them. The resolution of conflicts is the core of
community.

Isn’t there always a
conflict between the good of the group and the needs and freedoms of the
individual? Compromise is needed, correct?

The sequence is Encounter – you put all your negative judgments out face to
face, totally. Emotional Release – you just scream it out face to face.
Love – you hug and put out positive judgments. If this doesn’t resolve the
conflicts then, yes, you compromise. It’s meaningless to compromise without
the process. You’re just giving up power without gaining awareness and this
just leads to resentment and schizm in the group.

Nick

Taste and color are
different for
all. The most oppressive time of my life was when I was at a commune type
farm with all these well-intentioned Quaker hippies. They knew what was
best. Peace, love and vegetarianism. I couldn’t stop myself from eating
giant steaks and sharing cheerful and inspiring excerpts from
‘Mein Kampf.’
Just my nature I guess. On the other hand I feel the best
community/society
is a village, so go figure.

A little pop psychology stab in the dark – Nick, is your view of
addiction
and addicts colored by your experience with your brother? The
hardest thing
in the world is to see someone you love hurt themselves.

Peace out,
Steve.

PS: Carla, a darn good talk show indeed… or perhaps a ‘reality’
show. What
a cast of characters. Put ’em on a desert island, throw in a bikini clad
temptress to stir it up and bingo! Nick does dope, Dana and Peter do ibo,
and poor Preston misses V terribly. Or maybe Dr. Phil could help. Jerry
Springer anyone? Just kidding…

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:33:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 20:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

I wrote >And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations
at opiate
users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each
and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.<

I must admit I didn’t know about the brother until I finished reading
Carla’s note, which I hadn’t done when firing off the last note.
It doesn’t
really change much, but it does give me personally more insight
to where you
might be coming from Nick. I did not know about your brother, and yes, I
imagine it might be rough to see a loved one go through what you
think is a
really bad space (and under current prohibition policies quite often is a
really bad space). But love instead of judgement I bet would be more
effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he
asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life”
(not that
you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway,
have a day all.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

Love vs Judgement. OK. Do some encounter groups, man, you’re gonna see that
they’re actually the same thing. I mean this. Really.

As to rehab, and a closely related thread. My position is that there’s no
easy answer to addiction, but that the easy answers are most definitely
useful. It’s the same as the judgments, it’s making use of the Blacks and
the Whites, not just the greys. The mind has the power to distinguish for a
purpose, and it’s good.

Nick

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:26:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 19:43
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

Carla wrote >I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)<
—–

http://www.surgical-tutor.org.uk/default-home.htm?surgeons/halstea
d.htm~right

William Halstead (1852-1922)
—–

To be honest Steven, I don’t know why we (Nick and I) can’t continue
debating online. I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Oh go on, Preston, you know you want to really. I mean, I can’t read all
this stuff, man. I have work to do. I can’t just argue endlessly anymore.
Used to be able to, don’t know what happened.

Nick

It’s an honest
disagreement, and while I myself am really bent out of shape over what I
percieve as his descrimination towards opiate users, along with all his
blanket assertions about opiate users’ lives being boring, I still favor
“peace and love” as opposed to “screw you.” (Though, yes, I’ll admit,
there’ve been a few times now when yes, that’s a more honest spur of the
moment feeling, but I try to resist that as much as possible, as
it usually
merely exacerbates the heated disagreement and rarely brings anyone to my
point of view. Not that I always succeed at resisting, but I do try.)

But I’m not about to pay a phone bill to England just to debate
this issue
with Nick on the phone, nor do I particularly feel like
discussing it on the
phone regardless of makes the call or who’s paying the bill.
I’m a writer and reader, so why not write it out Nick?
Explain it to me
(and us) here so it doesn’t sound like you’re looking down on poor, still
addled(?) opiate users, please, or don’t if you don’t want to,
it’s all ok
with me. But I don’t really see a reason to pick up the phone for
this Nick,
it’s a public disagreement I don’t feel like taking to the
private realm at
this point. No offense, but I don’t want to.
And of course, each time I feel like disagreeing with you
onlist I will
continue to do so. I hope that doesn’t stop you from voicing your views
here, as it gives me food for thought, even as strongly as I
disagree with
you.
You never-been-a-junkie you.
And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at
opiate users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each
and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice
to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.
That means committing actual crimes for your information btw, like
breaking and entering, armed robbery, drunk/doped driving, etc.
Egad, I’ve ranted again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:24:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 18:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

But, baby, I’ve lived in this real world and it’s dull, dull, dull. Well,
not all the time but I’ve just got too much energy for the whole 9-5 deal
these days. Yes, I could take heroin to deal with that, but I thought I’d
try another option. Gay? Well, a bit, but not so much, still get this
occasional thing for cute bald guys but I don’t follow it up. Don’t have a
family, it’s true, but in community it’s like a big family. I do go through
mindfucks about having kids or not still, but my girlfriend has already got
a couple and doesn’t want more. I could leave her but I just love her too
much. You see my predicament?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Let’s do it!

love

Nick

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces dont work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a Peace and love?
Wouldnt Screw you Nick be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:20:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis, I’m sorry if I came across as a smart ass with my reply to you, I guess I was feeling funny at the time. Anyway, I can see that your serious about this, and what you said about your place sounds a lot like the one a very good friend of mine and I were talking about starting in Kentucky. I feel very grateful that my friend would think enough of me to want to include me in even planning such a place. This guy has credentials in addiction and recovery and he is as serious as a heart attack about doing something like what you are talking about. I was in a residential treatment program for two and a half years. We ran the place. Everyone had a job and you had to do well to move up and get out of there. It changed me for the better but, way too many rules, and it took way to long to complete. I think some kind of 3 month program would be just about right. Get them Ibogaine treatment legally wherever, and then get them in the program and help them with sleep issues and the feelings that pop up during the first 2 weeks. Computers, musical instruments, all kinds of self help books and philosophy books, putting green, trails, deer observation stands in the woods, I could go on but, you get my meaning. BI weekly therapy for the first month and then weekly, someone available for stress issues at any time. We’ve talked about this at length and we both think that this will really help some people. At the end of this program we would try and help them on the path that they choose. I think the biggest thing would to be flexible and open minded. Now all we need is for Ibogaine to be legal and the cost would come down hugely for everyone involved.         Randy

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:16:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 18:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the delightful back
and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right for you. Don’t
we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Hey Steve,

Well, personally I’m cool with judging. God judges the world through our
minds, that’s my take. And, I figure, if you’re going to take the stand and
judge you also have to listen to feedback. Which I do, I might not always
change my mind but I do listen.

As to the road to hell, well, Halleluliah actually means “Hell lights the
way to God.” [Halle Lu Lee Yah] Thought you would have known that one!

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really great drug, I
mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and actually
accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been known to taste,
get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s such a great
thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that in order to
really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK, then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad ideas can
become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad always seems
to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative. Yes, we all
want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not causing harm?

Well, I’d certainly considering getting hooked for a couple of years, I’m
not against in principle. I’d have to undergo a bit of a radical lifestyle
change, specially since I went to all the trouble to move away from Soho and
then Kings X a couple of years back, and it would be tricky with my girl and
stuff, but I’m not against the idea.

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and stubborn group
of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well. They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if you don’t quit”
works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and it’s a good
kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about quitting,
yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because it does fix
your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not for
everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by aliens during
their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few times, always
goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him a sacred duty
to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull hammer, but what
the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear about your
girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick with a “Peace
and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Yeah, well, I’ve ended rants with Love so we’re probably equal in that.

Love

Nick

Peace and Love,
Steve

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:44:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, I got started on Methadone in a 21 day taper program. I had 2 major colon surgeries in 85 and with the DR’s dope and what I got myself I had to do something about my addiction. I can’t remember the doses, but I started out getting a slight buzz on the first dose, so instantly I thought, this is cool. They took me up to 40 mg’s pretty fast. I think the thought at the time was that 40 mg’s was the blocking dose. When I started going down I didn’t really notice at first, but soon I started to panic. I think at the point of 25 mgs or so, I went to the Dr. and requested to be on maintenance, and I was in.        Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:34:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee,

I think that methadone can be used in various short term regimens to
significantly reduce opioid withdrawal.  What you have is cross tolerance to opioids,
going from heroin to methadone rather than “addiction” to one opioid for
another.   I am also not sure what you mean by a 21 day methadone taper?  (my
words)  I was aware of 21 day inhospital programs where methadone and other
medications would be provided for the first seven days and then continuation of
sleeping medication or other adjunct medications until discharge.  If you stayed
for the entire program you would be 14 days off methadone.  Are there programs
where methadone is supplied for 21 days?  Probably so in this world and nothing
wrong with that but, can you or others following this thread provide
information on opioid reduction therapies/regimens you are aware of?  Thanks. And,
anything that works is OK.

Howard

In a message dated 2/17/05 12:16:19 AM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:

<< Laura,

I never thought that to be the case.  I never experienced that to be

the case.  The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because

you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin

withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium.

Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know

that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to

addict you to methedone.  Will the person who successfully walked away from

a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!!  Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a

whole lot.  Same with 2mgs!   Needless to say once you are addicted to

methedone this does not apply.

This method is for the physical aspect only!  But it beats the hell out

of some of the other options.  The cravings were always there, but I believe

it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were

not physically motivated.

Martee

—– Original Message —–

From: thethird@myway.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep

you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if

you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to

detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are

actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).

Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,

If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of

methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all

my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used

again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it

works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you

have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will

hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.

By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may

be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re

using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are

definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly

known thing? Just a thought.

Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted

to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the

easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to

another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but

the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me

personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and

provider hope this answers your question.

Take care

Love Donna >>

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:39:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis,
Sounds lovely.  Were I there after my session It would have been at leat 3 weeks before I could even consider taking part in any of these activities other than meditation, 3 meals and talk.  Ibogaine kicked my ass!!  But I feel the necesity of having physical activities that are rewarding and meaningful and can be continued when they leave are very important. The activities that they can’t take home to do can show them what else you can do with your money and time when you have goals or wants other than drugs.  So is a better understanding of how to handle crisis, as well as everyday stresses without being medicated. Nutrition on an individual basis.There are some basics in nutrition that work well across the board, However again it’s not overwhelming people to go from a-z when a-c at least puts them on the right track.  Learning to rely on ones self, trust ones self and love ones self.  All empowerment. I believe these things can be relayed in a gentle manner without shoving well intentions on people that have a wall against others dogma.   What I meant exactly about where you were before will depend on what you need after has a lot to do with what peoples knowledge and capabilities are to begin with, how open is their mind, or not, and to find things that they need and will work within perameters they can find acceptable.  What I’m referring to is probably more in the fine tuning aspect but I feel still very relevant.
I also feel a certain amount of before care could have a big impact on the outcome as well.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Martee !!
Thank you for your answer. I think that I read somewhere that the success rate of Ibogaine in long term was about 15 %.
So it’s seems to me that the after care is the most important part of the recovery. What I am trying to find is what will be the best for after care. I have my idea on the subject but I want to check what are the real needs for the individual by asking the addicts who already took Ibogaine what will work.
I am thinking for esample of a minimum of a month of after care in a very beautiful but very rustic environment in some tropical paradise, on the beach . Kind of the first Club Med in Sicily that was designed with no luxury for divers . Martial art, meditation , yoga, archery, diving, snorkling, fishing, motivational talk, three meals, will be provided. The cost should be minimal, but the persone in recovery should be require a minimum of four hours light work following is abilities . This small farm should include, a medecinal garden and some animals. No radio, no  TV, no news,  discussions on politics and religions ( that was the only rules of the Club Med 🙂 because the man who create the club  didn’t want to divide people.
What do you think ?
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: m.finman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:15:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Laura,
I never thought that to be the case.  I never experienced that to be the case.  The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium. Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to addict you to methedone.  Will the person who successfully walked away from a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!!  Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a whole lot.  Same with 2mgs!   Needless to say once you are addicted to methedone this does not apply.
This method is for the physical aspect only!  But it beats the hell out of some of the other options.  The cravings were always there, but I believe it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were not physically motivated.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: and nutrition
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:47:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you very much for your help, I could feel , reading your E-mail what
it can be to fight this disease,. ………

In your E-Mail at one point you wrote :

But I have no doubt that what I learned in NA
planted the seeds for Panic/anxiety stuff.  After 3
years, I decided I wanted to smoke weed.  I felt SO
guilty after taking a puff that I wigged out,

Panic anxiety can have two origins : psycological or
physiological. I am telling you this because I had to go throught this shit
for more than a year. This use to drive me nuts, suicidal. Not only I had
panic attack but on top of it i started to had phobias 🙂 In fact I started
to medicate with alcohol when it was too much , and started to study NLP to
get rid of all this .
The results was that I graduate in both 🙂 Alcohol and NLP.   to make a
story short.
Several years later I read this book by Joan Mattews Larsen ” Seven
Weeks to Sobriety ”  and I found out that I was on the complete wrong diet
for an addict or alcoholic.
I was fucking up my adrenals glands with :
Carbohydrate. White sugar, coffe, pasta, pizza, junk food, ice cream and
alcohol. and …. stress.social pressure ect
. The adrenals glands control the fight-flight response . No wonder, I had
anxiety, panic, fears ect…… 🙂
Not only this, but by eating this type of ” food ” you keep the craving
alive. I ‘ve seen guys 20 years clean in AA who still crave to use .Maybee
the source of your disconfort is there ?/! Let me know 🙂
In my humble opinion, nutrition is a key player in recovery. Of course, you
can’t said this in the rooms 🙂
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

It probably is.  Or at least it can be classified as
compulsive or brainwashing or hypnosis or as Habit in
and of itself.  But this doesn’t mean it can’t be
positive too…depends what compare it to I guess, as
well as a persons ability to see ‘sims instead of
diffs’…

What really surprises me is Twice in last Couple of
Days, I’ll out of nowhere get this really really
potent smell of tar in a spoon, not even thinking
about it. I’ll be thinking of stuff totally different
and ununrelated then all of a sudden ALL MY ATTENTION
is focused on the fact the last breath I took smells
like burroughs tainted cheese.

It’s all so very silly…

The transition from ‘rehab’ to Now can be tricky.
But Rehab and Treatment are very subjective terms, as
is almost every other term used in ‘the field of
addiction’.

From what I can tell, some only say, “you need
meetings, because aftercare is important.”

This might work for the majority or some, but for
me, I already knew all that stuff, hell, I grew up in
that system for 3 years “successfully”.

But I have no doubt that what I learned in NA
planted the seeds for Panic/anxiety stuff.  After 3
years, I decided I wanted to smoke weed.  I felt SO
guilty after taking a puff that I wigged out,

then Everything went
Animated and CaCartoony

and Things that I prpreviouslyOVED,
freaked me out
like I was injected with fear.

That reaction soon lead me to my Love for Opiates.
I don’t see the benifit in treating all drugs the
same, except perhaps to focus on a common compulsion.
So for me, after Ibo, 90 meetings in 90 days wasn’t
going to do anything new ,for me,.  Whole lotta peeps
get good stuff out of it though, so why not.

Afterward, My issues were Legal, Financial, and
trying to Locate Contact information for Social
Services that might be able to help because I was/am
not in a postion to take very seriouslly any
opportuties for help I could find.
My ‘ibo aftercare’ sucked ass at that.
If the response is: go get a social worker…
Yeah, well 2 seconds ago you knew what was best for
me with some cookie cutter suggestion of 90 in 90.  If
you really gave a f*ck about the people you were
treating instead of adding another “I’ve treated X
number of people” maybe you could like point me in the
right direction to what the current situation
requires.  A link, hell even just some search word
suggestions.  ‘Sorry too busy treating new people.’
Well whatever, hope that works out for you.

Some % of ‘junkies’ ‘addicts’ have not very
developed Social Skills.  The substance can be used to
create distance as a defense memech Smoking Tobacco is
used this way allot in social situations I think.

So having an updated *list of Social Services
(education mentor, vocational mentor, what is the plan
for making new Friends etc. (not that old friends have
to go, but at least balance them out a bit, because I
am very aware that those I surround myself with effect
in part my woworldview

*list of Counseling services available

*Creating a 5-10 year vision of where want to be, then
steps and decimal points of how to try to get there.
Try to leave room to adapt to stay flexible with
Change.

Focusing intention before the Ibo session can help
too I think.

Damn this is long.  Sorry about that.

-J

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 9:47:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It probably is.  Or at least it can be classified as
compulsive or brainwashing or hypnosis or as Habit in
and of itself.  But this doesn’t mean it can’t be
positive too…depends what compare it to I guess, as
well as a persons ability to see ‘sims instead of
diffs’…

What really surprises me is Twice in last Couple of
Days, I’ll out of nowhere get this really really
potent smell of tar in a spoon, not even thinking
about it. I’ll be thinking of stuff totally different
and ununrelated then all of a sudden ALL MY ATTENTION
is focused on the fact the last breath I took smells
like burroughs tainted cheese.

It’s all so very silly…

The transition from ‘rehab’ to Now can be tricky.
But Rehab and Treatment are very subjective terms, as
is almost every other term used in ‘the field of
addiction’.

From what I can tell, some only say, “you need
meetings, because aftercare is important.”

This might work for the majority or some, but for
me, I already knew all that stuff, hell, I grew up in
that system for 3 years “successfully”.

But I have no doubt that what I learned in NA
planted the seeds for Panic/anxiety stuff.  After 3
years, I decided I wanted to smoke weed.  I felt SO
guilty after taking a puff that I wigged out,

then Everything went
Animated and CaCartoony

and Things that I prpreviouslyOVED,
freaked me out
like I was injected with fear.

That reaction soon lead me to my Love for Opiates.
I don’t see the benifit in treating all drugs the
same, except perhaps to focus on a common compulsion.
So for me, after Ibo, 90 meetings in 90 days wasn’t
going to do anything new ,for me,.  Whole lotta peeps
get good stuff out of it though, so why not.

Afterward, My issues were Legal, Financial, and
trying to Locate Contact information for Social
Services that might be able to help because I was/am
not in a postion to take very seriouslly any
opportuties for help I could find.
My ‘ibo aftercare’ sucked ass at that.
If the response is: go get a social worker…
Yeah, well 2 seconds ago you knew what was best for
me with some cookie cutter suggestion of 90 in 90.  If
you really gave a f*ck about the people you were
treating instead of adding another “I’ve treated X
number of people” maybe you could like point me in the
right direction to what the current situation
requires.  A link, hell even just some search word
suggestions.  ‘Sorry too busy treating new people.’
Well whatever, hope that works out for you.

Some % of ‘junkies’ ‘addicts’ have not very
developed Social Skills.  The substance can be used to
create distance as a defense memech Smoking Tobacco is
used this way allot in social situations I think.

So having an updated *list of Social Services
(education mentor, vocational mentor, what is the plan
for making new Friends etc. (not that old friends have
to go, but at least balance them out a bit, because I
am very aware that those I surround myself with effect
in part my woworldview

*list of Counseling services available

*Creating a 5-10 year vision of where want to be, then
steps and decimal points of how to try to get there.
Try to leave room to adapt to stay flexible with
Change.

Focusing intention before the Ibo session can help
too I think.

Damn this is long.  Sorry about that.

-J

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Don’t be disheartened(no reason)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:12:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen and  Julie.
For the 15 % , I am not sure, I think I read this in the Ibogaine Dossier
in an interview with Lotsoff. If I remember he was talking about long term
.In the short term I guess is 100% .
I will try to find more about this number tonight in the Dossier.
Don’t be disheartened,  I think Lotsoof was telling that some people have
to take it two or three time before complete sobriety. This make sens,
because sometime an addict relapse because is feeling realy good or realy
bad and can’t believe that he  will be hooked one more time . That was my
classical relapse pattern 🙂 The “just one “, to see if the result was
different  !!
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Don’t be disheartened(no reason)

I agree with Julie.I am also doing well as far as being clean goes.
Even with things around me seeming to fall apart,losing my car,
not much work coming in and plenty of other sh*t I am still
strong.

I cannot see how the success rate could only be 15%,..that
would be very disheartening to read indeed.I am not an expert
like some others on the list however I would think it would be
at least 65%.

If I can stay straight through all the crap that has happened
after being addicted for over 20 years with Ibogaine,if Randy
can do it after over 20 years and others on the list then you
can do it Donna. Ther is no reason to be disheartened,the hope
you saw is still there,..probably more than you know.

It’s that good.

Love,
Jasen.

Francis and Donna,

I would say the success rate with Ibo for people WHO
ACTUALLY WANT TO QUIT AND ARE NOT JUST PAYING
LIPSERVICE TO FAMILY/FRIENDS would be around 65-100%.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me secondary
withdrawal symptoms were a killer, with depression
ranking as the #1 reason why I would relapse.

I didn’t get the depression post-Ibo, and this is why
I think I’m still clean.  Ibo didn’t take away all the
symptoms of acute withdrawal, not even close.  And the
insomnia really gets to you after a while.  But still,
it’s the best detox aid I’ve ever found…

Julie

__________________________________________________
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 6:26:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

!0 % was in a conventional rehab run by Psychiatrists in the state of california. For AA and NA we don’t have any number. Is hard to guess. I think they are successful in the sense that it is like a tribe where you can go anywhere, anytime. I remember  a guy who lost is 18 years old daughter in a car crash. It was at Christmas and he was in vacation in Florida. He add a place to go where people where ready to understand his pain and eventualy abble to help him in his grief . His first reaction as an addict and alcoholic was to use, but he had a choice , a window of time to think. A group ready to share theirs experience with the death of a loved one. For this I still believe that the group is good, and can help a lot. Also because you can help another people too. That only my experience.If I am a bit sad or depressed, I go to a meeting and grab a cup of coffe. You have a lot of twisted people in the rooms but you can stick with the winners the one that are happy and free with a good sens of humor.
F

—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Francis

Thank you I think the answer is ibogaine to, Now to find the cash and a provider because it is easier to have the ibo straight from H rather than bup,  10% sucess rate on the 12 steps thats really low I was amazed, but then to read 15% sucess rate with ibo was really dis heartening.

with love Donna

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT n outa date!Francis-hermit quote
Date: February 16, 2005 at 6:08:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I know as ever I’m way out of date (1263 emails to go!) but this was just
the most perfect quote for me and I’m sure it won’t hurt to be repeated:

‘The hermit doesn’t sleep at night, in love with the blue of the vacant
moon.
The cool of the breeze that rustles the trees rustles him too.’

Thankyou Francis

All my love Hannah

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of subject Getting ancient

Thank you for your E-mail Vector I was just releasing my cave man anger
🙂
You are right I am getting older 🙂 even worst I am getting ancient…

I remember reading an ancient Grec philosopher complaining of the change
happening in the new generation and missing the good all time 🙂  I love
and use the I-ching ( the Book of Change )and they allways refers to an
ancient time when the world was perfect. Probably refering at more than
6.000 years BC when the first village where created around a wellspring.I
had the luck to live one year in the bush in Madagascar in small villages
like the ones  described in the “book of change ”
. This was actualy the best year of my life.No tv , no radio, no news, no
noise, no shoes, no stress but a lot of friendship and laughter 🙂

Here some sentences from the I-Ching

About creativity :
Creativity comes from awakening and directing men’s higher natures, which
originate in the primal depths of the uni- verse and are appointed by
Heaven.

About perseverance
One should act in consonance with the way of heaven and earth, which is
enduring and eternal. The superior man perseveres long in his course,
adapts
to the times, but remains firm in his direction and correct in his goals.

Advice ( are they talking about addiction and recovery  !/? )
Great effort is required to arrest decay and restore vigor. One must
exercise proper deliberation, plan carefully before making a move, and be
alert in guarding against relapse following a renaissance.

Hermit
The hermit doesn’t sleep at night, in love with the blue of the vacant
moon.
The cool of the breeze that rustles the trees rustles him too.
God Bless and a very happy new year !!
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of subject TV and violence

Francis I love reading your messages and most of the time I don’t have
any kind of reply to what you say but I enjoy reading it. In this one
message I think I can offer you a simple answer that I’m sure your son
with his vibrating razor will agree with. Maybe your just getting
older, older not old! 🙂 If you ever had the chance to talk to your dad
when you were growing up I’m sure he would have had the same thoughts
about the age you were growing up in and how things had change.

I don’t think anyone knows where they’re going, we are always going
there faster and everything keeps getting worse. That’s the same as
it’s ever been and some of it worries me and makes me think there will
be no future world, but cellphones, wireless and vibrating appliances
have never been anything I have thought about. Didn’t we always have
those? 😉

Happy new year!

.:vector:.
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi randy !
You are right : ” mankind keeps evolving faster and faster ”
.Maybee is what’s bothered me.
I am here with my simple reptilian brain, seeking pleasure mind,
wishing to get laid type of cave man brain, wondering how ro feed my

tribe type of man.
And I am discovering on my brand new ,already obsolete desktop
computer, that rich countries can now ,do micro surgical
bombing from
30.000 feets on civil populations.This world is going to fast for me
🙂
People work double time to buy speedy cars, fast micowave, wireless

phone that are suppose to save them time !! What’s the point of going

fast if we don’t know where we are going ?/! For me this is a
dis-ease,
and evil one because we don’t now we have it :-).
My son bought a hand razor with several blades like the old one he
had
from last year, but this one vibrate.. Everything have to vibrate
now,
the freaking materass, the beeper, the pager, the speakers, the
dildo
and the phone. Soon we will have freaking pans and pots that will
vibrate. I hopes I will be dead before I have to cook in the next
generation kitchen.!!
God Bless
Francis

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of subject TV and violence

Francis, you make some very good points in that post. There have been

alot of cultural changes since the 50’s when TV got into households
everywhere. That has to be taken into consideration when looking at
this. Sure TV has made a difference in the violence quota but it’s
made
a difference in sex and drugs and everything else too. Mankind keeps
evolving faster and faster and I hope that as we evolve we learn how
to
get where we want to go without hurting each other. Randy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A position
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:39:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

G’ day Angel,

Nice to hear from you.I sent you an email a couple of minutes ago concerning 15%.
I am doing pretty well. I feel like I need to leave the place I have lived in for the past
5 years, I also feel like selling everything I had before Ibogaine and making a real fresh start.

I feel like my house wants to spit me out,..like “you’ve finished here man,..time to move on.

Although I am still strong,..I am not comfortable in my home now or my surroundings,I have some
big decisions to make. I have had more pressure in the last 2 months than in tha last 2 years.

It’s like I am being taught to handle life’s pressures,challenges,and make big decisions whilst
haze free. It says,”can you handle it man?” and I say” f*ck yes I can handle it,..but settle down a bit ay.

Mmmm,..that’s life,…making choices and handling the consequences.

I wish you were in Australia as well,..I could look after you like a sister.That was the good thing
about Sara’s in Amsterdam,..I felt like I was with family.

I understand how you feel,…it’s almost over girl,..hang in there and believe in yourself,after all
you are an Angel.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position

Hi Jasen  Gday mate

How are you doin down under???????   I wish I lived in Oz so when I do the ibo you could be my sitter.  Hope you are well

Love Angel

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Don’t be disheartened(no reason)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:18:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I agree with Julie.I am also doing well as far as being clean goes.
Even with things around me seeming to fall apart,losing my car,
not much work coming in and plenty of other sh*t I am still
strong.

I cannot see how the success rate could only be 15%,..that
would be very disheartening to read indeed.I am not an expert
like some others on the list however I would think it would be
at least 65%.

If I can stay straight through all the crap that has happened
after being addicted for over 20 years with Ibogaine,if Randy
can do it after over 20 years and others on the list then you
can do it Donna. Ther is no reason to be disheartened,the hope
you saw is still there,..probably more than you know.

It’s that good.

Love,
Jasen.

Francis and Donna,

I would say the success rate with Ibo for people WHO
ACTUALLY WANT TO QUIT AND ARE NOT JUST PAYING
LIPSERVICE TO FAMILY/FRIENDS would be around 65-100%.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me secondary
withdrawal symptoms were a killer, with depression
ranking as the #1 reason why I would relapse.

I didn’t get the depression post-Ibo, and this is why
I think I’m still clean.  Ibo didn’t take away all the
symptoms of acute withdrawal, not even close.  And the
insomnia really gets to you after a while.  But still,
it’s the best detox aid I’ve ever found…

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:05:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Angel,

It is one of the strongest and nicest pain killers there is.
In my experience as close to heroin as you can get.

There is also omnapon,also a very strong pharm’ opiate.

Love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Amsterdam.
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:01:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Cindy,

I did the treatment with Sara in Amsterdam.
The treatment plus airfares will be less than 10,000
actually much less and the treatment was/is very
successfull.

Sara will pick you up from the airport and look after
you. All meals are included and it is not a clinical setting. Then you can check out Amsterdam.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: “Cindy Derida” <cindyderida@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:46 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Could someone please tellme where I can get ibogaine
treatment or is the lady at the university for $10,500

Isthere any treatment still open besides the doctor
lady at miami for over 10000?

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] metha’ for 3 days
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:52:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey guys,

I understand what Martee is saying,..and it does work, My brother and I in the past have taken Methadone for 3 to 4 days to
get over the worst of the heroin withdrawels.I am not sure how it works,…it simply just does. We would normally have a big
first dose, enough to feel warm, then say…30 hours later have half the amount,then the third dose would be less than the second.

By the fourth day and the fifth you are over the worst of the withdrawel however if nothing has changed around you,such as moving away, having the same friends,ect ect,..then the chance of using again with in the next few days is very very high.

Love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:32:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It fine with me Donna, just phone me if you are in the Netherlands, 0346-241770,
I’m going to start a treatment tonight, but you can come and check it out.

Love,

Sara

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 22:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Sara

I know you have answered some of my questions before and i am sorry to repeat them as you are probably very busy, after long chats with Jasen and reading the list I am looking to be treated with ibogaine to break my heroin addiction, I am desparate to do this and i have a supply of subutex, but is it true that ibogaine works better when using heroin rather than subutex?? do you still treat people? if so would you consider treating me? if so how long would the treatment last? and how much would it cost?.  Lee has offered to treat  me after easter, however you are nearer to me and you sound such a caring person  (im sure Lee is to)  I would love to meet you, there is a chance I may be in your area over the weekend, I would love to meet you, (i hope i am not being to forward its just from what Jasen has told me what a great, special person you are)  nevermind if we can not meet up it was just a thought.

love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:26:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is it like Subutex???????????????

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:24:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sara

I know you have answered some of my questions before and i am sorry to repeat them as you are probably very busy, after long chats with Jasen and reading the list I am looking to be treated with ibogaine to break my heroin addiction, I am desparate to do this and i have a supply of subutex, but is it true that ibogaine works better when using heroin rather than subutex?? do you still treat people? if so would you consider treating me? if so how long would the treatment last? and how much would it cost?.  Lee has offered to treat  me after easter, however you are nearer to me and you sound such a caring person  (im sure Lee is to)  I would love to meet you, there is a chance I may be in your area over the weekend, I would love to meet you, (i hope i am not being to forward its just from what Jasen has told me what a great, special person you are)  nevermind if we can not meet up it was just a thought.

love Donna

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:19:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i´m not sure about the receptors but the way martee describes it works fine for short h withdrawals, i did it a few times myself.
still the craving stays much longer than physical withdrawal, very different than with ibo. the metha-method doesn´t work for really bad withdrawals(2-3 weeks) i believe.

Am 16.02.2005 um 17:28 schrieb “” <thethird@myway.com>:

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:12:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

An synthetic opiate. .
Van: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 22:08
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

dilaudid
Am 16.02.2005 um 19:54 schrieb AbbotAngel@aol.com:
Hi
What is diladid????????

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:11:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen  Gday mate

How are you doin down under???????   I wish I lived in Oz so when I do the ibo you could be my sitter.  Hope you are well

Love Angel

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:08:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dilaudid
Am 16.02.2005 um 19:54 schrieb AbbotAngel@aol.com:

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? – After Care
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:42:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Frances,

The whole question of aftercare is not really that complicated. Its quite intuitive. We make it complicated by our own insistence to carry on in the same old way attitude wise.

There is a price to be paid for recovery. Unless you are willing to pay it then you are basically heading towards being a statistic, i.e., someone who tried but it didn’t work.

Aftercare in one sense costs nothing if you go about it with the right attitude. Its not some mystical wand or formula you have to get right so that the person is standing under the Orion constellation on the night of the summer soltice (if that is possible).

Its all pretty simple. It becomes complicated when we try to hold onto the old ways mentally speaking.

I would say the key to recovery is COMPASSION. Use it on yourself and others and start to make the life changes that are staring you in your face and become dam obvious after the first session and which catalyse the emergence of the underlying issues which require treatment via mini-sessions (low-dose sessions) and perhaps some full-sessions over a pèriod of years.

The reason for all this is because recovery only works when we dissect bit by bit the underlying causes which support our addiction and this we can only do when we are willing to put aside the war and seek the peace.

Otherwise we can spend our lives looking for a miracle cure which requires no personal change and which does not and never will exist apart from some form of lobotomy.

All the best to you. Dahhhhhhhh Dah …….was that I we ,=????????000000^^^^^^Oh my Cat..

Lee

The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Martee !!
Thank you for your answer. I think that I read somewhere that the success rate of Ibogaine in long term was about 15 %.
So it’s seems to me that the after care is the most important part of the recovery. What I am trying to find is what will be the best for after care. I have my idea on the subject but I want to check what are the real needs for the individual by asking the addicts who already took Ibogaine what will work.
I am thinking for esample of a minimum of a month of after care in a very beautiful but very rustic environment in some tropical paradise, on the beach . Kind of the first Club Med in Sicily that was designed with no luxury for divers . Martial art, meditation , yoga, archery, diving, snorkling, fishing, motivational talk, three meals, will be provided. The cost should be minimal, but the persone in recovery should be require a minimum of four hours light work following is abilities . This small farm should include, a medecinal garden and some animals. No radio, no  TV, no news,  discussions on politics and religions ( that was the only rules of the Club Med 🙂 because the man who create the club  didn’t want to divide people.
What do you think ?
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: m.finman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:28:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 16, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Vector Vector wrote:

Patrick, isn’t summer house another center owned by mom? I though the
holistic treatment pimp, spam machine 😉 and summer house werre both
owned by Mash?

And … you would be wrong in both instances.

Patrick

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:27:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis and Donna,

I would say the success rate with Ibo for people WHO
ACTUALLY WANT TO QUIT AND ARE NOT JUST PAYING
LIPSERVICE TO FAMILY/FRIENDS would be around 65-100%.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me secondary
withdrawal symptoms were a killer, with depression
ranking as the #1 reason why I would relapse.

I didn’t get the depression post-Ibo, and this is why
I think I’m still clean.  Ibo didn’t take away all the
symptoms of acute withdrawal, not even close.  And the
insomnia really gets to you after a while.  But still,
it’s the best detox aid I’ve ever found…

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:00:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I dont know where mexico is, besides below the united state 😉 did they
go out of business?

Summer house is trashing ibogaine.

http://www.drugdetoxcenter.com/web_faqs.cfm

Patrick, isn’t summer house another center owned by mom? I though the
holistic treatment pimp, spam machine 😉 and summer house werre both
owned by Mash?

.:vector:.

— Cindy Derida <cindyderida@yahoo.com> wrote:

Could someone please tellme where I can get ibogaine
treatment or is the lady at the university for $10,500
the only one? there are all these sites and adds for
ibogaine but for two of them they go back to her and
where is the mexican ibogaine clinic please? I and a
friend want to go somewhere they dont reply to any
numbers listed on web site or return mail. this hasnt
been 2 hours it is more like a week or more.

The summer house place lists themselves as ibogaine
under the adds but on their web site all they do is
write a page of why its a quack herbal cure that
doesnt work and if you call them they say its garbage
and offer to give you diladid instead. The opiate site
link doesnt know anything about its 3 people saying
nothing and reprinting ibogaine conference listing.

Isthere any treatment still open besides the doctor
lady at miami for over 10000?

c
— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I think they’re talking about Ibogaine.  Click on
the link and you’ll
find
the whole discussion.
—– Original Message —–
From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have
heard no good about
it
and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it
took us some time to
get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are
supossed to be
“Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the
lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a
regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the
next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done
this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I
can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But
do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it
is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I
just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont
come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know
this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I
have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there

…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY

http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with
(amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:54:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:52:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis

Thank you I think the answer is ibogaine to, Now to find the cash and a provider because it is easier to have the ibo straight from H rather than bup,  10% sucess rate on the 12 steps thats really low I was amazed, but then to read 15% sucess rate with ibo was really dis heartening.

with love Donna

From: Cindy Derida <cindyderida@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:46:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Could someone please tellme where I can get ibogaine
treatment or is the lady at the university for $10,500
the only one? there are all these sites and adds for
ibogaine but for two of them they go back to her and
where is the mexican ibogaine clinic please? I and a
friend want to go somewhere they dont reply to any
numbers listed on web site or return mail. this hasnt
been 2 hours it is more like a week or more.

The summer house place lists themselves as ibogaine
under the adds but on their web site all they do is
write a page of why its a quack herbal cure that
doesnt work and if you call them they say its garbage
and offer to give you diladid instead. The opiate site
link doesnt know anything about its 3 people saying
nothing and reprinting ibogaine conference listing.

Isthere any treatment still open besides the doctor
lady at miami for over 10000?

c
— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I think they’re talking about Ibogaine.  Click on
the link and you’ll
find
the whole discussion.
—– Original Message —–
From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have
heard no good about
it
and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it
took us some time to
get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are
supossed to be
“Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the
lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a
regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the
next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done
this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I
can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But
do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it
is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I
just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont
come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know
this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I
have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there

…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY

http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with
(amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:29:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Donna.
Maybee you are not a scholar but you know more abot addiction than any specialist, because you had to go through the pain in your own flesh. I believe that only addicts can understand the problem. In fact , I read in ” Seven weeks to sobriety ” from the only statistics available to the public ( psychiatrist in California ) the success rate in rehab is 10 % BUT THE SUICIDE RATE down the road is 30% .   Ibogaine should be your answer.
Thank you one more time and God bless you
F
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time)  So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 12:48:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee !!
Thank you for your answer. I think that I read somewhere that the success rate of Ibogaine in long term was about 15 %.
So it’s seems to me that the after care is the most important part of the recovery. What I am trying to find is what will be the best for after care. I have my idea on the subject but I want to check what are the real needs for the individual by asking the addicts who already took Ibogaine what will work.
I am thinking for esample of a minimum of a month of after care in a very beautiful but very rustic environment in some tropical paradise, on the beach . Kind of the first Club Med in Sicily that was designed with no luxury for divers . Martial art, meditation , yoga, archery, diving, snorkling, fishing, motivational talk, three meals, will be provided. The cost should be minimal, but the persone in recovery should be require a minimum of four hours light work following is abilities . This small farm should include, a medecinal garden and some animals. No radio, no  TV, no news,  discussions on politics and religions ( that was the only rules of the Club Med 🙂 because the man who create the club  didn’t want to divide people.
What do you think ?
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: m.finman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 12:27:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think they’re talking about Ibogaine.  Click on the link and you’ll find
the whole discussion.
—– Original Message —–
From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have heard no good about it
and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it took us some time to get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are supossed to be “Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there ”
…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY
http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

————————————————————————–

—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start
taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go
away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more
to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your
body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and
attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you
would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase
of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal
and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at
first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to
become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to
the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when
you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like
say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I
really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge
was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and
the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda
“sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by
and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose,
the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that
secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after
dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more
often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an
antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person
to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty,
shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like
euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just
like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the
dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will
have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking
dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any
euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than
full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take
a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you
stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger
dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our
guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed
to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It
was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no
matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it
helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher
dose..

————————————————————————–

—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM,
hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it
works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the
optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually
determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most
patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if
you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Agenda details NYC Ibogaine Forum
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:31:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Really looking forward to the NYC Forum this upcoming weekend.
Jeff’s psyched for Sunday, and I’m geeked out about Monday – go
figure.

But ALSO, the Sound Tribe Sector NIne will be through newyawk this
weekend for trance-techno-bliss-groove events at the Irving Plaza on
Friday and Saturday evening.  Tix are $22 in advance, $25 at the door;
see http://www.sts9.com/info.php?i=1371   Highly recommended.

the ibo-wife formerly known as rachelradhakrishna

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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:28:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Dutch heroin trials find better outcomes in those with prior abstinence based treatments (!?)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:04:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

randomised to ‘medical’ heroin of 61% versus 39% in the oral methadone
group.  This is highly significant both statistically (p=0.0003) and also
from a dependency point of view.  The finding appears to be corroborated

gah… i hate to sound nit picky, but this really irks me…

there is no such thing as being “highly statistically signficant”.
something is either statistically signficant, or it isn’t. a p level of
0.0003 is not “more significant” than a p level of 0.05. if you want to
talk about how much of an effect something has (i.e. how important the
effect is), you have to look at the effect size, not the significance
level.

j0n

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From: <shamaness@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]ok i get it.offlist
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:48:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

–
MORE FUN!
LESS STUFF!
MAKE ART*
NOT WAR :(
LUV -
NOT
SUV!

—- HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>Dear Francis,
>
>First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
>term?
>
>As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can go
>back
>in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
>experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the individual but, how
>they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how one may be viewed
>and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my mind the
>harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and conventions that
>mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and then further
>defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and punishable by long
>prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are not only tracked
>by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of drugs in
>order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has resulted in
>greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
>stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to significantly increase the
>psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more simply to create
>an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates and makes
>worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing users in society
>in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews in states
>where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
>terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system that I have heralded
>ibogaine for so much of my life.
>
>Howard
>
>In a message dated 2/15/05 12:25:39 AM, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:
>
>>Hi Howard !!
>>
>>This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ” bougeois
>>”.
>
>>In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
>>alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
>>I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs
>>or alcohol.
>>
>>1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems
>>of drunkness .
>
>>Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
>>drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
>>murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
>>entitled offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
>>condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a
>>dead body.
>
>>In China there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
>>ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
>>appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
>>suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
>>alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
>>For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
>>reduce consumption.
>
>>A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can go back
>>in history.
>>
>>God bless
>>
>>Francis ( ex drunk 🙂 )
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\ 
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>
>

From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:12:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones.  It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready.  The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still.  The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.   By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically.  I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc.  But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing?  Just a thought.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time)  So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:10:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have heard no good about it and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it took us some time to get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are supossed to be “Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there ”
…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY
http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

————————————————————————–

—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start
taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go
away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more
to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your
body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and
attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you
would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase
of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal
and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at
first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to
become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to
the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when
you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like
say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I
really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge
was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and
the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda
“sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by
and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose,
the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that
secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after
dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more
often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an
antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person
to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty,
shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like
euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just
like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the
dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will
have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking
dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any
euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than
full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take
a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you
stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger
dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our
guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed
to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It
was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no
matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it
helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher
dose..

————————————————————————–

—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM,
hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it
works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the
optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually
determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most
patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if
you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 6:08:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time)  So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:34:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/16/2005 2:30:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:
LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis
Francis, there are a lot of people here that have been helped by Ibogaine for longer than me, but I can tell you how I got where I am.       Step one……..realize that I’m not going to die from liver cancer or Hep C and don’t want to be addicted anymore.    Step two……..look for a way out.    Step three……..Realize the futility in this and take way more methadone.     Step four……..Check out the Ibo info that my mother wryly lets me “find on my own”.      Step five………Promptly piss all over the idea that some wild ass trip stuff from Africa will cure addiction while eating a hand full of Methadone.      Step six………become completely obsessed with finding all the info I can on Ibogaine and begin the search for it.       Step seven……..Become convinced that this could really work.     Step eight………find a great provider and take my medicine.      Step nine…….Giggle at the purple snakes writing words in my head and watch the blast off, puke, colors explode in my head, puke some more, watch African women dance to a Rumba and become completely amazed at the beauty of life.         Step ten………..Cry, laugh, contemplate, cry some more, and generally freak out for about 2 weeks while getting little sleep. (it was worth it).      Step eleven……..Finally take my providers advice and seek counseling, laugh at the looks of disbelief that I get from most of them when I tell them how I got clean, go to lots of meetings in the town where I got sober and use my sponsor, laugh at the look of disbelief from him when I tell him how I got clean, read the big book, AGAIN, take what I need from Big book and leave the rest, read the 4 Agreements, read some more of the bible, keep my head in Ibogaine and harm reduction daily on the Internet, and keep an open mind.       Step twelve…….Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps I put my soul into trying to get the word out about Ibogaine to the addicts that have no clue that there is an option like this. O, by the way, I don’t recommend telling a room full of old timers in AA about Ibogaine, it goes over like a fart in a scuba tank.               Randy

From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:16:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi List

I guess the idea that rehab is the holly grail of treatment appears to be quite a common belief. After all its probably the most expensive? – Apart from maybe the criminal injustice system. I would say that the best you can expect from rehab is that it provides a safe place where folk can have a break from their destructive lifestyle, maybe put on some weight and engage their thoughts. If after having done this, they can then walk back out into reality without their chemical comfort blanket then that is something that amazes me and probably happens is a very small amount of cases – I don’t have any stats and I’m, not sure they could be collated everyone has a different idea of success.

It’s easy to forget that the vast majority of people who decide to change their lives do it without any professional help. I work in the area of addictions and what works for most people is a shift from within. Services can help to motivate people with their own shift but its not easy, once in services its easy to get stuck in them. Quite often the folk that come into treatment are at the point where they have wondered off the paths and onto the moors so often they find it hard to recognise a path let alone walk on one. This is made all the more difficult if they have a significant history of criminal justice interventions and have developed an ability to gravitate towards bad karma from low self esteem from negative experience.

In my view the world is often a difficult place to be and so life inside the bubble of dependency offers some kind of protective barrier from the greedy, competitive, self obsessed planet we chose to create for ourselves.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:55:48 +0000 (GMT)

Hi Howard,

Theres a lot of interesting stuff in this article which I can identify with in my own recovery albeit not drug addiction. I would like to point to one item:

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

I would define “brief interventions” as mini-sessions or low-dose sessions that help to chip away at the issues.

I disagree totally with:

The recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.

This suggests very primitive ideas about compartmentalising your inner world and avoiding it with the outer world. Perhaps the author might better say that the recovering addict needs to discover compassion for him or herself and those around her or her.

In eboga terms I would say that “addiction” recovery translates to filling in the gaps in ones psyche or persona the addiction masks over. Hence, while gaps remain, i.e. unresolved material leading to emotional pain and discomfort, the “addiction” or use of drugs of choice will always be a possibility but not always a neccessity. However, this is secondary to the inner work one does and the reengagement with life that occurs. Immediate cessation of drugs is not what healing with eboga is about, even if it is desirable.

In other words its about growing (up) rapidly over a period of time via the insight and change brought about with eboga.

Which leads to and brings about:

Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

Which in turn leads to (via for one thing the spiritual intervention in this world eboga gives along with the self-empowerment the healing brings about):

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is interesting:

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

In eboga terms by step xyz you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who stands up for himself or herself when the occasion warrents or walk away when it doesnt. Plus you will be motivated to heal whatever wounds you have been a party to as well as try to give to others some of the love that daily fills and blesses your life as you walk in the freedom of your own true self.

It all boils down to intention, a dash of faith, a sprinking of humility and perseverence  with the path imo.

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-100-1480776,00.html

February 14, 2005
Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
by Michele Kirsch
A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste of
time

KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy: rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete. Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective. She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless” and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with absent friends – get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:46:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Randy, wish you all good forum in N.Y,  I think the place is just right for this.

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 9:18
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Your beautiful Sara. I kind of feel like Ibogaine did that for me. I know I’ve never felt like this before. I like where I am at.           Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please/OT Rant
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:42:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/16/2005 2:42:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, Lavindin@aol.com writes:
Tryied to get off that list but the site kept comming up error and I just can’t seem to make this list go away and now i habve a friend all mad as I forwarded something to him before I knew we would be swamped with e-mails… help me get rid of this
I just have to know how you can send an Email to someone and have them get swamped with E mails from this list. That’s it, I have it. Patrick is trying to take over the world with computers. I knew he wasn’t right. Did he go to Yale? Is Patrick the Anti Christ? I’m digging my bomb shelter 100 feet deeper now that I have found this out. Anybody know where to get Hepa filters cheap? What’s the shelf life of coffee and herb? Will there be an internet after Armaggedon? Gotta get more ammo……Gotta get more ammo…….Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:18:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Your beautiful Sara. I kind of feel like Ibogaine did that for me. I know I’ve never felt like this before. I like where I am at.           Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:12:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s a little pipe that gives you a couple of tokes. I’m on the marijuana maintenance plan. I am jokin’ ya know. I don’t see herb as a problem tho. Can you say Harm Reduction?   Randy

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@call south.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Preston n’ Nick
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:36:26 AM EST
To: “ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But love instead of judgement I bet would be more
effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he
asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life” (not that
you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway,
have a day all.

That was so well said Preston.  Reminded me of my parents explaining to me that much as they loved me and enjoyed seeing me they didn’t appreciate my visits nodding off, throwing up or planting my face in the plate at the dinner table.  They quietly put down their requests & wants that included visiting when I was relatively coherent and if not it might be better to stay home.  I know they hated me using but I did have to respect their feelings especially the way they put it without screaming at me or cutting me off.  They still had my daughter to stay and spent time with her and I was always welcome as long as I respected their wishes in their home.  They certainly never gave me money for the obvious reasons but they did help out with paying for necessities or treats.   Allison

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:36:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The type that teaches you to trust your heart ,mind and spirit , without the brain washing of AA/NA.
We are capable to think and feel and recover from almost anything with the right attitude and trust.
Right  attitude = when you become creative and happy with what you got. Acceptance that you are not a recovering addict
But an ex- user who found using as boring as hell.
Or something like that…

God bless  Francis,

Sara
Van: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 5:03
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:12:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there ”
…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY
http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

—————————————————————————-
—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start
taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go
away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more
to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your
body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and
attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you
would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase
of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal
and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at
first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to
become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to
the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when
you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like
say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I
really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge
was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and
the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda
“sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by
and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose,
the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that
secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after
dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more
often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an
antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person
to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty,
shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like
euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just
like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the
dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will
have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking
dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any
euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than
full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take
a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you
stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger
dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our
guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed
to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It
was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no
matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it
helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher
dose..

—————————————————————————-
—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM,
hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it
works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the
optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually
determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most
patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if
you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 12:24:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 11:02:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: Lavindin@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 10:41:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Tryied to get off that list but the site kept comming up error and I just can’t seem to make this list go away and now i habve a friend all mad as I forwarded something to him before I knew we would be swamped with e-mails… help me get rid of this …………………

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:54:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,
What are “one hits” mate?

Love ya,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position

Yea Nick, it does. I guess being a junkie/ex junkie myself, I am defensive about it. I empathize with every one who is addicted to anything because I’m the same way. LOL  Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me the chair or nothin’. They might come over and drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but I’m willin’ to take that risk.      Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:51:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 15, 2005 at 7:49:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Right on brothers.

Love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job, whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 7:40:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy 🙂
Thank you for your answer. In your opinion , what should be the best way to help and  to get the most “elegant” result ( fast and simple ) ?
F
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, I don’t think that if a person asks for help that it is messin’ with his Karma to do so. Wouldn’t it be messin’ with your Karma if you turned down an honest plea for help? I think it would mine. If I have information that can help an individual, I will be all means give it to him if he asks. I had to ask about 57 people for help till I found the Ibogaine. Well, it seemed like it, maybe it was more like 14 or 15, but I had to seek the help myself first.      Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:17:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis, I don’t think that if a person asks for help that it is messin’ with his Karma to do so. Wouldn’t it be messin’ with your Karma if you turned down an honest plea for help? I think it would mine. If I have information that can help an individual, I will be all means give it to him if he asks. I had to ask about 57 people for help till I found the Ibogaine. Well, it seemed like it, maybe it was more like 14 or 15, but I had to seek the help myself first.      Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:16:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny.<

Yeeeah, I got that Steven, no worries.

I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you
ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope that shit
is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference.<

LOL, well, maybe, but then, that might be boring too, no yelling or argumentativeness rearing its ugly head.
As always,
Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

>I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny. I appreciate your manners Preston. I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope that shit is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference. Otherwise it just becomes preaching to the choir. It would be nice to have you guys go somewhere with this all. Perhaps we are. No reason to yell.

A commune? Nick, for some reason that slipped my mind… Isn’t it tough to keep strident ideals in a community of individuals? Isn’t there always a conflict between the good of the group and the needs and freedoms of the individual? Compromise is needed, correct? Taste and color are different for all. The most oppressive time of my life was when I was at a commune type farm with all these well-intentioned Quaker hippies. They knew what was best. Peace, love and vegetarianism. I couldn’t stop myself from eating giant steaks and sharing cheerful and inspiring excerpts from ‘Mein Kampf.’ Just my nature I guess. On the other hand I feel the best community/society is a village, so go figure.

A little pop psychology stab in the dark – Nick, is your view of addiction and addicts colored by your experience with your brother? The hardest thing in the world is to see someone you love hurt themselves.

Peace out,
Steve.

PS: Carla, a darn good talk show indeed… or perhaps a ‘reality’ show. What a cast of characters. Put ’em on a desert island, throw in a bikini clad temptress to stir it up and bingo! Nick does dope, Dana and Peter do ibo, and poor Preston misses V terribly. Or maybe Dr. Phil could help. Jerry Springer anyone? Just kidding…

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:55:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear List .
I am not grouch, just pondering….

After reading this long E-mail
” A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste
of
time “Bla Bla Bla Snip Snip
.

I start to  believe too, that rehab is a waste of time.

I remember seeing in India a man dying in the street, he was so skinny,
just bones and skin, few pound of humanity laying on the sidewalk. At the
time I was doing business in India and I was with one of my providers.
The poor man was dying at few yards from a bus station where hundred of
people where waiting, impassible, continuing to laught and talk together. It
was a beautiful day in Old Deli.
Just another day. I wanted to put the man in a a cab an bringing him to a
close Hospital. The provider and another man explained me that it was not a
good idea : I was interfering in his Karma, and… if he was to die in the
taxi, his familly could suit me in the futur. So I let him died and bought
me an Ice cream…
Now, today on the beach enjoying the Sunset I was asking myself a question :
helping an addict to quit, are we interfering with the laws of Nature, God,
or Evolution. ? This is a pertinent question
In case, for any reason we are not breaking any of theses fondamental laws
and we want realy to bother.

What will be the best way to help addicts ?
I would like to ask this questions to the bright scholars of  addictions and
expert in the realm of drugz of this list. .
God Bless
Francis

I read :
KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy:
rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was
the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete.
Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics
and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned
that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on
which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS
pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now
have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic
interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there
is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their
addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are
no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts
of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and
heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing
supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE
course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a
life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t
like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest
part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for
prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there
would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective.
She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was
not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to
do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research
study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and
prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing
early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is
that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain
listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that
they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless”
and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme
suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the
US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is
another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and
also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and
scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most
Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most
self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life
skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather
than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help
people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or
alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just
Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on
treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of
permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to
Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit
that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] NY Times painkiller article
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:58:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:28:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny. I appreciate your manners Preston. I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope that shit is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference. Otherwise it just becomes preaching to the choir. It would be nice to have you guys go somewhere with this all. Perhaps we are. No reason to yell.

A commune? Nick, for some reason that slipped my mind… Isn’t it tough to keep strident ideals in a community of individuals? Isn’t there always a conflict between the good of the group and the needs and freedoms of the individual? Compromise is needed, correct? Taste and color are different for all. The most oppressive time of my life was when I was at a commune type farm with all these well-intentioned Quaker hippies. They knew what was best. Peace, love and vegetarianism. I couldn’t stop myself from eating giant steaks and sharing cheerful and inspiring excerpts from ‘Mein Kampf.’ Just my nature I guess. On the other hand I feel the best community/society is a village, so go figure.

A little pop psychology stab in the dark – Nick, is your view of addiction and addicts colored by your experience with your brother? The hardest thing in the world is to see someone you love hurt themselves.

Peace out,
Steve.

PS: Carla, a darn good talk show indeed… or perhaps a ‘reality’ show. What a cast of characters. Put ’em on a desert island, throw in a bikini clad temptress to stir it up and bingo! Nick does dope, Dana and Peter do ibo, and poor Preston misses V terribly. Or maybe Dr. Phil could help. Jerry Springer anyone? Just kidding…

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:25:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard !!

Bourgeois is a pre marxist term . Now the notion of a
bourgeois state , and the idea of his power to define addiction as evil  is
in my view a marxist  definition or at least existentialist.. Is true that
the ” Bourgeois ” as a social class in charge of justice and punishment his
very harsh and judgmental regarding addiction ;they still see the addict as
somebody that have to suffer as consequences of is weakness or vices.Before
the “Bougeois”  Non elected Rulers had to pass laws to protect the social
order.

Infortunately , a  drunk or an addict had to live with the stygmatas of his
disease. He is perceived by the society  as a paria , the lower class of our
society.I have seen this everywhere, in Africa, South America, in Middle
East etc…, everywhere.
I am refering as addict as : a persone who become physiologically or
psychologically dependent on a habit-forming substance and who is hurting
himself or others  . I read in a  study that  people in this country will
rather had a serious criminal who paid is dues,  as a next door  neighbor
than an active alcoholic.!!  That the way people look at drunks or addict.
:-(.

You wrote :
I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.

Governments regards toward drugs will change as soon  they will discover
the perfect drug with no side effect. I remember some nice articles in the
international press , starting by the Times. Showing how perfect was cocaine
🙂 Finally, the perfect recreational drug :-)You will remember  nice
articles promoting H too in the 60s:-). They have to amused us to death, to
stop us from thinking.
Peoples of the lies”  will continue to push theirs agenda upon the masses
selling theirs false dream and  cheap fake pleasures.

Reading ;” The Tranquilizing of America”  I discover that ours governments
had nothing realy against drugs, they just want to control the production
and commercialisation of it. . Opium is even  better than religion to
enslave people. Maybee the generation of my Gran son will have to fight for
the right of not taking drugs ( I have been grouch, one more time ).

I admire your job and God probably had choosen you to have this important
role in this battle against the stygmatisation of the addicts. by ours
societies.

God Bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can
go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how one may be
viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and conventions
that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and then
further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and punishable
by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are not only
tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has resulted
in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to significantly
increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more simply to
create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates and
makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing users in
society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews in
states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system that I
have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

In a message dated 2/15/05 12:25:39 AM, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net
writes:

Hi Howard !!

This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ”
bougeois
” .

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found
addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs
or alcohol.

1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems
of drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled  offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a
dead body.

In China  there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000
years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol.
Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record
clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these
problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go back
in history.

God bless

Francis  ( ex drunk 🙂 )

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 3:03:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wrote >And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at opiate users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.<

I must admit I didn’t know about the brother until I finished reading Carla’s note, which I hadn’t done when firing off the last note. It doesn’t really change much, but it does give me personally more insight to where you might be coming from Nick. I did not know about your brother, and yes, I imagine it might be rough to see a loved one go through what you think is a really bad space (and under current prohibition policies quite often is a really bad space). But love instead of judgement I bet would be more effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life” (not that you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway, have a day all.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

Carla wrote >I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)<
—–

http://www.surgical-tutor.org.uk/default-home.htm?surgeons/halstead.htm~right

William Halstead (1852-1922)
—–

To be honest Steven, I don’t know why we (Nick and I) can’t continue debating online. I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick. It’s an honest disagreement, and while I myself am really bent out of shape over what I percieve as his descrimination towards opiate users, along with all his blanket assertions about opiate users’ lives being boring, I still favor “peace and love” as opposed to “screw you.” (Though, yes, I’ll admit, there’ve been a few times now when yes, that’s a more honest spur of the moment feeling, but I try to resist that as much as possible, as it usually merely exacerbates the heated disagreement and rarely brings anyone to my point of view. Not that I always succeed at resisting, but I do try.)

But I’m not about to pay a phone bill to England just to debate this issue with Nick on the phone, nor do I particularly feel like discussing it on the phone regardless of makes the call or who’s paying the bill.
I’m a writer and reader, so why not write it out Nick? Explain it to me (and us) here so it doesn’t sound like you’re looking down on poor, still addled(?) opiate users, please, or don’t if you don’t want to, it’s all ok with me. But I don’t really see a reason to pick up the phone for this Nick, it’s a public disagreement I don’t feel like taking to the private realm at this point. No offense, but I don’t want to.
And of course, each time I feel like disagreeing with you onlist I will continue to do so. I hope that doesn’t stop you from voicing your views here, as it gives me food for thought, even as strongly as I disagree with you.
You never-been-a-junkie you.
And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at opiate users when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each and every individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me, really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.
That means committing actual crimes for your information btw, like breaking and entering, armed robbery, drunk/doped driving, etc.
Egad, I’ve ranted again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 2:43:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla wrote >I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)<
—–

http://www.surgical-tutor.org.uk/default-home.htm?surgeons/halstead.htm~right

William Halstead (1852-1922)
—–

To be honest Steven, I don’t know why we (Nick and I) can’t continue debating online. I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick. It’s an honest disagreement, and while I myself am really bent out of shape over what I percieve as his descrimination towards opiate users, along with all his blanket assertions about opiate users’ lives being boring, I still favor “peace and love” as opposed to “screw you.” (Though, yes, I’ll admit, there’ve been a few times now when yes, that’s a more honest spur of the moment feeling, but I try to resist that as much as possible, as it usually merely exacerbates the heated disagreement and rarely brings anyone to my point of view. Not that I always succeed at resisting, but I do try.)

But I’m not about to pay a phone bill to England just to debate this issue with Nick on the phone, nor do I particularly feel like discussing it on the phone regardless of makes the call or who’s paying the bill.
I’m a writer and reader, so why not write it out Nick? Explain it to me (and us) here so it doesn’t sound like you’re looking down on poor, still addled(?) opiate users, please, or don’t if you don’t want to, it’s all ok with me. But I don’t really see a reason to pick up the phone for this Nick, it’s a public disagreement I don’t feel like taking to the private realm at this point. No offense, but I don’t want to.
And of course, each time I feel like disagreeing with you onlist I will continue to do so. I hope that doesn’t stop you from voicing your views here, as it gives me food for thought, even as strongly as I disagree with you.
You never-been-a-junkie you.
And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at opiate users when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each and every individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me, really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.
That means committing actual crimes for your information btw, like breaking and entering, armed robbery, drunk/doped driving, etc.
Egad, I’ve ranted again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 15, 2005 at 2:19:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

—————————————————————————-
—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda “sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose, the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty, shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher dose..
—————————————————————————-
—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM, hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 2:18:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Julie,

The reason I ask is that I was reading about the 2 deaths attributed to ibogaine and the extract where it was not conclusive. In the first the girl is suspected of leaving the ibogaine treatment room and shooting up – leading to od. In the second it makes no comment but just says the guy in the UK died while on the toliet after been treated successfully with the extract.

What springs to mind is this. If its not conclusive about the dutch girl od’ing then is it possible that the guy with the extract did something similar? Seems reasonable as he may have been feeling good and wanted to feel even better?

Why is it not conclusive (Dutch case) if it would show up on the autopsy?

Lee

Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Lee,

I’m not an expert, but I would imagine most hospitals
would run a toxicology report on the patient.
Heroin/morphine would turn up in it for sure…

Julie

__________________________________
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:55:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Theres a lot of interesting stuff in this article which I can identify with in my own recovery albeit not drug addiction. I would like to point to one item:

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.
I would define “brief interventions” as mini-sessions or low-dose sessions that help to chip away at the issues.

I disagree totally with:

The recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.

This suggests very primitive ideas about compartmentalising your inner world and avoiding it with the outer world. Perhaps the author might better say that the recovering addict needs to discover compassion for him or herself and those around her or her.

In eboga terms I would say that “addiction” recovery translates to filling in the gaps in ones psyche or persona the addiction masks over. Hence, while gaps remain, i.e. unresolved material leading to emotional pain and discomfort, the “addiction” or use of drugs of choice will always be a possibility but not always a neccessity. However, this is secondary to the inner work one does and the reengagement with life that occurs. Immediate cessation of drugs is not what healing with eboga is about, even if it is desirable.

In other words its about growing (up) rapidly over a period of time via the insight and change brought about with eboga.

Which leads to and brings about:

Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

Which in turn leads to (via for one thing the spiritual intervention in this world eboga gives along with the self-empowerment the healing brings about):

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is interesting:

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

In eboga terms by step xyz you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who stands up for himself or herself when the occasion warrents or walk away when it doesnt. Plus you will be motivated to heal whatever wounds you have been a party to as well as try to give to others some of the love that daily fills and blesses your life as you walk in the freedom of your own true self.

It all boils down to intention, a dash of faith, a sprinking of humility and perseverence  with the path imo.

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-100-1480776,00.html

February 14, 2005
Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
by Michele Kirsch
A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste of
time

KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy: rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete. Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective. She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless” and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [MAPS] Live audio web chat with the Shulgins
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:55:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Valerie Mojeiko, MAPS” <valerie@maps.org>
To: <maps-news@maps.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: [MAPS] Live audio web chat with the Shulgins

Rarely, MAPS will send out an announcement from an allied organization about
an event that is likely to be of particular interest to MAPS members and
friends.  What follows is a message from Ethan Nadelmann, Ph.D., J.D.,
Executive Director, Drug Policy Alliance, about a Feb. 22 live audio web
chat with Sasha and Ann Shulgin, several weeks after a remarkably positive
feature article was published about Sasha in the New York Times Sunday
Magazine: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n170/a05.html?2047

From  Ethan:

I am pleased to invite you to a live audio web chat at on Tuesday,
February 22 at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST with myself, Dr. Sasha Shulgin, the
noted psychedelic chemist and pharmacologist, and his wife Ann Shulgin,
the beloved writer and therapist. Dr. Shulgin, a former Dow research
chemist, is well known for his creation and discovery of new
psychoactive chemicals and for his promotion in the late 1970s and early
1980s of the use of MDMA in psychotherapy. Sasha and Ann Shulgin
together authored and published the books “PIHKAL: A Chemical Love
Story” and “TIHKAL: The Continuation,” detailing the synthesis of and
their personal experience with hundreds of psychedelics.

The Shulgins will be online to address your questions on a range of
topics from the “war on drugs” to the therapeutic use of MDMA. Please
email questions@drugpolicy.org before February 22 to submit questions,
and don’t forget to bookmark the chat address!

WHEN:  Tuesday, February 22, 2005
3 PM PST / 6 PM EST
WHERE: http://www.drugpolicy.org/events/shulginchat

Read on for further information about the Shulgins and myself:

Sasha Shulgin studied Chemistry at Harvard University and Biochemistry
and Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco. He has
authored over 200 research papers published in peer reviewed scientific
journals, been awarded some 20 patents and written four books. Sasha has
been studying the chemistry and effects of psychedelics for over 30
years. He was recently featured in the New York Times Magazine:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n170/a05.html?2047 , which described
him “not as a scientist in the modern sense but as a different type —
what Aldous Huxley, the novelist turned psychedelic philosopher, once
described as a ‘naturalist of the mind.'”

Ann Shulgin is a therapist who conducted psychedelic therapy before
1985, when MDMA was effectively made illegal when it was reclassified as
a Schedule I drug. Ann is a researcher and spokesperson for the
beneficial use of psychedelics, including MDMA, in a therapeutic
setting. The Shulgins travel and speak extensively on the topic of
psychedelics.

I am the founder and executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, the
leading organization in the United States promoting alternatives to the
“war on drugs.” I’ve spent many wonderful hours with Sasha and Ann over
the years. It will be a real pleasure to have you join our conversation.

To submit a question now, please use the following email address:
questions@drugpolicy.org.

I encourage you to pass along word about the chat to other people you
know who might be interested, and look forward to seeing you online on
the 22nd!

Best,

Ethan Nadelmann
Executive Director
Drug Policy Alliance
http://www.drugpolicy.org


Valerie Mojeiko
MAPS
2105 Robinson Avenue
Sarasota, FL 34232
941-924-6277 phone
941-924-6265 fax
www.maps.org

_______________________________________________
maps_members mailing list
maps_members@maps.org
http://www.maps.org/mailman/listinfo/maps_members

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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:49:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, isn’t this the place you went and did all
that lsd?

Carla B

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare
well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the
regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:47:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:43:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee,

I’m not an expert, but I would imagine most hospitals
would run a toxicology report on the patient.
Heroin/morphine would turn up in it for sure…

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:36:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Too funny 😉

Lavindin, it’s the link at the bottom.

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/List/index.html

Carla B

— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi, I know how you feel. Unfortunately you will have
to bear with the list a little longer as Patrick
said he wants to keep you here so he can torture you
slowly with more emails on the subject of fascism
and curing homosexuality 🙂 with smoke up your ass
or something like that.

Heres a tip. Look at the bottom of the messages and
follow the trail to the commands which will delist
you. Don’t tell Patrick I told you……

Lavindin@aol.com wrote:
Please take me off the mailing list my mail box is
way to full and I have had enough.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of
eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for
members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:24:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and perhaps gain a better understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the delightful back and forth. If anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps best left in god’s hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right for you. Don’t we get into all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s right for others?  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really great drug, I mean it’s lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and actually accomplish a great deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been known to taste, get hooked and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s such a great thing, does that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that in order to really help an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK, then I think it’s essential that you get hooked for a year or two to be able to really help the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad ideas can become good ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad always seems to change through the ages and always struck me as relative. Yes, we all want to help and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if they are doing it for anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and stubborn group of people, those addicts. External forces don’t work that well. They must choose to quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if you don’t quit” works, but usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and it’s a good kick in the pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about quitting, yeah I want to but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to keep from putting a bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because it does fix your head, but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and they HAVE to use Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not for everyone. It does kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by aliens during their trip never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few times, always goes back to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with methadone, so who’s to know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him a sacred duty to get you try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really feel pure love, sure it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull hammer, but what the hell, words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear about your girlfriend. It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick with a “Peace and love?” Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:15:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi, I know how you feel. Unfortunately you will have to bear with the list a little longer as Patrick said he wants to keep you here so he can torture you slowly with more emails on the subject of fascism and curing homosexuality 🙂 with smoke up your ass or something like that.

Heres a tip. Look at the bottom of the messages and follow the trail to the commands which will delist you. Don’t tell Patrick I told you……

Lavindin@aol.com wrote:
Please take me off the mailing list my mail box is way to full and I have had enough.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:11:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL I like the image!

Let me rephrase. What I want to know is this: is it possible that an OD on heroin would not show up on an autopsy report? If so, under what conditions?

Thanks Lee

pigchips <pigchips@comcast.net> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin

Hi,

Can someone please tell me if it is possible to OD on Heroin and for it not to show up on an autopsy report? What factors are at work?

Thanks,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 12:56:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-100-1480776,00.html

February 14, 2005
Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
by Michele Kirsch
A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste of
time

KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy: rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete. Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective. She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless” and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 15, 2005 at 12:34:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

In a message dated 2/15/05 12:25:39 AM, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:

Hi Howard !!

This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ” bougeois
” .

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs
or alcohol.

1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems
of drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled  offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a
dead body.

In China  there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go back
in history.

God bless

Francis  ( ex drunk 🙂 )

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From: Lavindin@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 9:45:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please take me off the mailing list my mail box is way to full and I have had enough.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Dutch heroin trials find better outcomes in those with prior abstinence based treatments (!?)
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:53:48 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 11:56 PM
Subject: Dutch heroin trials find better outcomes in those with prior abstinence based treatments (!?)

Matching of treatment-resistant heroin-dependent patients to medical prescription of heroin or oral methadone treatment: results from two randomized controlled trials. Blanken P, Hendriks VM, Koeter MWJ, van Ree JM, van den Brink W. Addiction (2005) 100: 89-95

Dear Colleagues,
This re-analysis of the Dutch heroin trials* shows that for most patient variables there was no difference in the proportion of ‘responders’.  The study randomised complex, ‘resistant’ opioid dependency cases to either standard oral methadone or medical heroin prescription, injected or nasal forms, depending on individual’s usual route of administration.  The factors examined included level of education, hospitalisations, psychiatric history, living arrangements, employment, cocaine use and previous abstinence based treatment.  Although overall results were significantly better in the heroin groups, only one of these factors was associated with a difference in treatment outcomes when heroin was prescribed.  The group reporting a history of abstinence based treatment had a defined ‘response rate’ in those randomised to ‘medical’ heroin of 61% versus 39% in the oral methadone group.  This is highly significant both statistically (p=0.0003) and also from a dependency point of view.  The finding appears to be corroborated since the response rate to standard methadone treatment was substantially lower in those who gave a history of having any abstinence based treatment (24 vs. 38%).

The authors speculate about this finding but no firm conclusion is reached. Workers in the field will be familiar with a group of ‘failed’ NA/AA subjects who often take methadone reluctantly at low doses and for short periods.  Some can be our most frustrating patients, expressing guilt, depression and other negative feelings towards what they consider a poor option, despite the potential and evident benefits.

The study patients all had limited responses to traditional treatments available in Holland, including oral methadone.  The mean age was 39; 80% were male and there was a high degree of psychiatric co-morbidity.  Overall the ‘response’ rates in this trial*, were 25% for the oral methadone group and 45% for the others using the Addiction Severity Index (ASI) to 40% improvement levels.

It is depressing for outsiders (and possibly embarrassing for our British colleagues) that the UK has had thousands of patients prescribed injected heroin or methadone for decades, yet it is the Dutch who performed the first large randomised trial of this treatment.  It is to the credit of the Addiction journal that it was prepared to publish this item despite its traditional avoidance of items of this nature.  Maybe we will soon be reading a section on harm reduction!

In a report from Canadian Press dated 9th Feb 2005, a clinical trial has been approved by Health Canada in which 158 Vancouver addicts will be prescribed pharmaceutical-grade heroin for 12 to 15 months. A second site is being readied for the North American Opiate Medication Initiative (NAOMI) in Montreal, expected to open in April, and Toronto will be added shortly after that.

It now appears possible, or even likely, that banning heroin in the 1950s ‘sent the wrong message’ to young people.  It certainly denied medical patients the benefits of medical heroin in most countries.  Far from eliminating heroin problems, the bans have been associated with rampant spread of illicit heroin use.  It may be that the bans have contributed to the problems, in part by permitting easy access for minors as well as encouraging hasty and unsupervised use of drugs of uncertain purity. America is still unravelling the mayhem associated with prohibition of alcohol.  It is to be hoped that we will be more scientific and methodical in undoing the many problems associated with heroin prohibition in western countries.  Although many factors are still uncertain, these trials, injecting rooms, NA and other self help groups, legal diversion, decriminalization and education are all pieces in a larger puzzle of how to reduce drug use as well as reduce the harmful consequences of such use. Australia has scored many successes regarding tobacco and alcohol.  Other drugs should follow and society will be the better and more prosperous for it.

Comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm

Blanken P, Hendriks VM, Koeter MWJ, van Ree JM, van den Brink W. Matching of treatment-resistant heroin-dependent patients to medical prescription of heroin or oral methadone treatment: results from two randomized controlled trials. Addiction (2005) 100: 89-95

*Original report: van den Brink W, Hendriks VM, Blanken P, Koeter MWJ, van Zwieten BJ, van Ree JM. Medical prescription of heroin to treatment resistant heroin addicts: two randomised controlled trials. BMJ 2003;327 310-0

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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:18:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin

Hi,

Can someone please tell me if it is possible to OD on Heroin and for it not to show up on an autopsy report? What factors are at work?

Thanks,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:00:37 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

Can someone please tell me if it is possible to OD on Heroin and for it not to show up on an autopsy report? What factors are at work?

Thanks,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] .
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:40:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 15 February 2005 11:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] .

Sorry the sound was when Ali/4Men Rumbled.

Hey Nick,

I don’t think people would lie as much if it were
legal.  People do what they have to do to not feel
sick.

As far as it being a choice,  I guess it was, but
it  really doesn’t seem like it when in the middle of
it though.  “No Sick, No Sick, No Sick” preoccupies
too much time and effort.  Too much wasted
energy…that wouldn’t happen if it was legal.

Heroin is deadly they say.  If you had to od on a drug
in the ER you couldn’t pick a better drug.
Also, when legal, the dose potency and supply are
realiable and consitant, so they don’t die.

I don’t think choosing to do Illegal Heroin is a
reasonable idea, for me.  But I think from a ‘don’t
tread on me’ perspective, I’d rather as a tax payer
pay for that person to get as much heroin legally as
they want so they can be as productive a member of
society as possible.  That would be way cheeper then
funding their  criminal education in prison.

What I hear from you is: you see things in Black &
White, and you feel I must pick a side or I am not
feeling or living up to your potential? is this
correct?

Hope you’re doing well.

-Jason

Hi Jason,

I’m pretty good. Had a nice Valentines with my girlfriend, Steven didn’t
show up and whisper stuff about her in my ear. I agree heroin should be
legalized.

I’m not asking you to pick a side or live up to my expectations. You don’t
rant, that’s enough for me, though I’m also cool with a bit of ranting. It’s
not that I see everything only in black and white, it’s just that I’m active
by nature and I make decisions and to do that I have to let go of the greys
a little. So that’s what I do. It’s not always perfect.

Nick

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:08:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yea Nick, it does. I guess being a junkie/ex junkie myself, I am defensive about it. I empathize with every one who is addicted to anything because I’m the same way. LOL  Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me the chair or nothin’. They might come over and drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but I’m willin’ to take that risk.      Randy

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] .
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:06:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry the sound was when Ali/4Men Rumbled.

Hey Nick,

I don’t think people would lie as much if it were
legal.  People do what they have to do to not feel
sick.

As far as it being a choice,  I guess it was, but
it  really doesn’t seem like it when in the middle of
it though.  “No Sick, No Sick, No Sick” preoccupies
too much time and effort.  Too much wasted
energy…that wouldn’t happen if it was legal.

Heroin is deadly they say.  If you had to od on a drug
in the ER you couldn’t pick a better drug.
Also, when legal, the dose potency and supply are
realiable and consitant, so they don’t die.

I don’t think choosing to do Illegal Heroin is a
reasonable idea, for me.  But I think from a ‘don’t
tread on me’ perspective, I’d rather as a tax payer
pay for that person to get as much heroin legally as
they want so they can be as productive a member of
society as possible.  That would be way cheeper then
funding their  criminal education in prison.

What I hear from you is: you see things in Black &
White, and you feel I must pick a side or I am not
feeling or living up to your potential? is this
correct?

Hope you’re doing well.

-Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:43:26 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 23:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Ms Iboga
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter

Okay Julie, apologies accepted.

Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hunderds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a statal system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?
These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.
When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see  why I use the example of homosexuality?

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discrimanotory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy,

Hi Peter,

Could I ask if your position on ibogaine has now changed? And, if so, what is it now?

Thanks

Nick

an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.
This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink  can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )
The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether  when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

pc

At 09:09 -0800 13-02-2005, Ms Iboga wrote:
Hi Peter,

My apologies for the misunderstanding…I guess I
mis-read that paragraph.  I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hmmm correction
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:33:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hello All,

Last 1min30sec are Dr.M*a*s*h,

http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-3436.html

Also, if you want to hear a bwiti song on the
radio,
call 1-800-580-0Tom and ask to be Blown Up African
Tribal Style. lol  Sometimes ridiculous just comes
out
of nowhere 🙂

Hope ya’ll had a Good V day too
Cheers,
J

 

___________________________________________________________

ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:28:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 18:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just
a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this.<

I am doing this Nick because I highly disagree with your opinions about
opiates and people who use them. I am perfectly fine with you
stating your
opinions- that’s not the issue at all. My beef is your prejudice against
“junkies” and opiates and the notion that you would be perfectly within
reason to have the cops drag junkies out into the light of day and force
them to change their ways.
(sorry, I deleted that original message with that statement, but
I’m sure I
could still dig it out of the deleted box if you insist on telling me you
did not write that.)

Hi Preston,

I’m not prejudiced against junkies. I didn’t say that I wanted to cops to
drag junkies out into the light of day, though it’s an interesting metaphor.
I believe in awareness, yes. I like the light of day.

Look, it’s obvious you’re just going to keep ranting at me, and that’s
because you don’t know me, least that’s what I figure. Why don’t you just
call me up and talk about it. Maybe that would be better. You can get me on
+44 7950 204557, I’m on UK time. Or leave me a number, I’ll call you. Seems
easiest.

Nick

Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain,
that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.<

Thanks for the mollification Nick, but who’s to say what pain is valid
enough for opiate use? Only physical pain? It’s not ok to use opiates for
any other pains? How ’bout for recreational use? How ’bout those who only
use it on weekends, for fun? (They do exist and don’t all turn
into raging
addicts.) How about those who use opiates as a crutch to get
through their
day? Is that ok with you Nick? Where do you draw the line, and
grant your ok
to opiate use? Just with my pain, or with all pain? What
constitutes pain in
your mind? Would you kick the literal crutch out from under
someone if you
didn’t think their pain or reason for using said crutch was
valid, to force
them to deal with life on the terms you think people should deal with it?
From everything I’ve read from you, like:

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just
a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the
shit out of
me. I like to take a position.<

you come across to me to be quite the judgemental authoritarian and that
Nick is what bothers me about you. And yes, this is just my
opinion, and you
are entitled to yours as well- but disagreements are sure to
follow each and
everytime I see you write something like the above. I’d like to see you
write a whole paragraph without using the word “you” in it and
personalize
what you say, and quit including me in your assessments of life and how
things should be. You wrote “just getting along through
compromise and some
tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and
leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some
drug.” How in
the hell you think you know what “it” leaves ME or anyone BUT YOU
is a lot
of what bothers the heck out of me about you and what you write here
constantly Nick.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So
please get
this.<

It’s not the stopping that terrifies me Nick, it’s the idea that some
prohibitionist maniac can kick in my door and shoot me dead and get away
with it so long as he/she claims it was all in the name of a War on Some
Drugs and Users. It’s the idea that my doc might move away and leave me
stuck having to convince another doc that I’m in pain and need help. It’s
the idea that some people look down at others and say that
because they bore
them they should change their ways. That bit doesn’t terrify me
so much as
really irritate and aggrevate me.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 11:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the
ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to
really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

No, of course I’m not saying that. Preston, I don’t really
understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m
just a flesh
and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you.
It upsets me
that you do this. Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again
that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that
this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying
to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I
would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please
get
this.

Nick

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the
ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just
a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the
shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your
right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti
all day long
is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only
because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way
appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of
their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a
position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t
mean that my
judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this
position in
the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this
life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end.
I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing,
in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a
different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take
another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience
it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the
creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with
everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing
which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact
with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your
life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:55:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy,

I’ve never been a junkie. I’m not claiming to know what a junkie’s position is. I just see heroin addiction as a choice not to feel, sometimes necessary, sometimes not. I’m not against junkies at all. To be honest, the only thing I don’t like about heroin addiction is the lying. If you’re addicted to a painkiller I think it’s good you admit this, at least to yourself, ideally to others too. I don’t like all the junkie fantasies and glamourising of a drug which simply stops you feeling. If you wanna use, fair enough, but be honest. I’m addicted to a painkiller. That’s basically my position. I’ve nothing against junkies at all. Does this help?

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 16:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position

Nick, I’m curious. Have you ever been a junkie? If not, how do you know what a junkies position is? You may have said so and I missed it, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from with an open mind. My provider wanted me to read a book called the 4 Agreements, and the premise is being open to what everyone says, and to not play into the negativity of others, along with a lot of changing your self talk and false beliefs. Kind of a spiritual RET/RBT concept. It’s pretty deep and it took me 5 months to get to it, but well worth the read.
Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:24:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard !!
This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ” bougeois
” .

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs or
alcohol.
1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems of
drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled  offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a dead
body.

In China  there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go back in
history.
God bless
Francis  ( ex drunk 🙂 )

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear list,

A brief discussion appeared on addict-l list concerning the history of the
concept of addiction and I am providing a quote of Peter Ferentzy.

Howard

In a message dated 2/14/05 7:27:59 AM, pferentzy@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

Could you provide a bit more information?  Why bourgeois individualism?

OK, Howard, but this is something I’ve written so much about I don’t
know where to start. The addiction concept is about 200 years old. In
timing, at least, it emerged with the onset of developments such as
industrialization and the Enlightenment. I use the term “bourgeois” to
identify the ascending economic class, which would eventually take over
and, as rulers do, dominate culture. The middle classes, so dominant in
North America, can be taken as extensions of the “bourgeois” grouping.
If you’re interested, you might want to look at Harry Levine’s Discovery
of Addiction (though maybe you’ve already read that). In short,
capitalism & free enterprise went hand in hand with a new conception of
individual rights, and people were more likely to be perceived as
individual economic ‘units’, or self-starters, beholden to no one,
rather than as extensions of communal and traditional obligations.
In such a setting, free will becomes important, to the point where
humanity here in the West took a closer look at “unfree will”
(addiction) than at any other time in human history.
This is not to say that in the past people were blind to struggles with
temptation. And, yes, king Solomon could discuss a drunkard in ways that
resemble today’s addiction concept. But it’s not the same. As Harry L.
pointed out back in the 70s, while the behavior itself may be similar,
the way we interpret the inner experiences is new: it’s now a subjective
journey, wherein an addict can only be identified as such when he
confesses to experiencing “cravings”, and a “loss of control”. The type
of self-control needed to function as a middle class/bourgeois
individual (recall Weber’s discussions of how such persons would put off
pleasure in order to save money) generated a keen collective inquiry
into any form of loss of control, notably with alcohol and later with
opiates.

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hmmm
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:15:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello All,

Last 1min30sec are Dr.M*a*s*h,
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-3436.html

Also, if you want to hear a bwiti song on the radio,
call 1-800-580-0Tom and ask to be Blown Up African
Tribal Style. lol  Sometimes ridiculous just comes out
of nowhere 🙂

Hope ya’ll had a Good V day too
Cheers,
J

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:33:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear list,

A brief discussion appeared on addict-l list concerning the history of the
concept of addiction and I am providing a quote of Peter Ferentzy.

Howard

In a message dated 2/14/05 7:27:59 AM, pferentzy@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

Could you provide a bit more information?  Why bourgeois individualism?

OK, Howard, but this is something I’ve written so much about I don’t
know where to start. The addiction concept is about 200 years old. In
timing, at least, it emerged with the onset of developments such as
industrialization and the Enlightenment. I use the term “bourgeois” to
identify the ascending economic class, which would eventually take over
and, as rulers do, dominate culture. The middle classes, so dominant in
North America, can be taken as extensions of the “bourgeois” grouping.
If you’re interested, you might want to look at Harry Levine’s Discovery
of Addiction (though maybe you’ve already read that). In short,
capitalism & free enterprise went hand in hand with a new conception of
individual rights, and people were more likely to be perceived as
individual economic ‘units’, or self-starters, beholden to no one,
rather than as extensions of communal and traditional obligations.
In such a setting, free will becomes important, to the point where
humanity here in the West took a closer look at “unfree will”
(addiction) than at any other time in human history.
This is not to say that in the past people were blind to struggles with
temptation. And, yes, king Solomon could discuss a drunkard in ways that
resemble today’s addiction concept. But it’s not the same. As Harry L.
pointed out back in the 70s, while the behavior itself may be similar,
the way we interpret the inner experiences is new: it’s now a subjective
journey, wherein an addict can only be identified as such when he
confesses to experiencing “cravings”, and a “loss of control”. The type
of self-control needed to function as a middle class/bourgeois
individual (recall Weber’s discussions of how such persons would put off
pleasure in order to save money) generated a keen collective inquiry
into any form of loss of control, notably with alcohol and later with
opiates.

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 7:58:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and getting enough money by stealing lawnmowers and copper tubing to make that one big score of ibo. i’m not an ibonaut but my 13 yrs of h were filled with petty hustles , pilfering medicine cabinets of friends. writing bad scripts, tellling my friends i needed bond money for my lady and shooting
it up and dope anyone who was stupid enough to front to me.  oh, don’t forget ripping off your homies crib when he got busted and pawning all his shit. then there’s this computer thing , i supposed i could’ve boosted one from the local jr. college since i bagged several vcr machines.  i would have made ibo but i had a hole in my arm, ankle, wrist and thigh where all  the money went . maybe a provider would’ve fronted a trip and then i could pay him back when i finished paying my bondsman his weekly installments. i must have been a pond scum junkie cuz no way i could’ve put Ibo money together in the day. if it had been free, i would
have signed on between ripping people off and selling pool room powder for junk. now that i’ve got bucks,  i’ve got a benzo jones with a slight opiate twang so Ibo’s out. no magic pill for this low life. back to the Ibo, i would have had to go c/t to pay for it. maybe even now.  gotta love h, it gives one purpose in life. ron
wishing all that peaceful path to what appears to be a wonderous state of being.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job, whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: New York drug users yield some of their secrets to researchers. Funds/dealing.
Date: February 14, 2005 at 6:08:29 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:52 PM
Subject: New York drug users yield some of their secrets to researchers. Funds/dealing.

Golub A, Johnson BD. How much do Manhattan-arrestees spend on drugs? Drug and Alcohol Dependence (2004) 76;3:235-246

Dear Colleagues,

This report analyses responses from over 2000 detailed questionnaires concerning specific sums paid for a variety of drugs in the 30 days prior to being arrested in Manhattan between 1998 and 2002.

The authors state in their results summary: “Among 2000-2002 arrestees, median drug expense in the past 30 days varied widely with frequency of use and drug-user type. Infrequent marijuana-only users spent as little as $5, daily marijuana-only users spent about $600. Arrestees who used both heroin and cocaine spent over $1000. Estimates with the 1998-1999 data were about half as large”. “The amounts expended on drugs based upon the most recent episode(s) of drug consumption were almost twice as large as estimates derived from asking arrestees how much they had spent for drugs in the past 30 days.”

While corresponding research is rare elsewhere, we do know that most heroin users applying for treatment in Sydney have been injecting (a minority smoke or sniff) almost daily and commonly between A$25 and A$100 (~US$600 – $2400 per month).  Cocaine is much more expensive in Australia and is not seen in the form of crack at all.  Injected cocaine is nearly always in binge-type use and is apparently uncommon outside of inner Sydney.  Since retention in good quality treatment is high, and heroin/cocaine use is known to reduce dramatically while in treatment, the actuarial losses to the illicit market and reductions in law enforcement costs must be substantial, quite apart from humanitarian benefits and lessened viral disease transmission.

On related matters from New York, Davis, Johnson and other colleagues show that in upper, eastern Manhattan almost half of all drug users are also currently involved in some part of drug distribution.  Those involved in dealing drugs were more likely to have HIV, higher incomes and to be in current drug treatment, but to have poorer education, housing and employment status than those not involved.  While more women than men are involved, men are more likely to be involved in direct selling.  [Citation: Davis WR, Johnson BD et al. Gender differences in the distribution of cocaine and heroin in Central Harlem. Drug Alc Dependence (2005) 77:115-127]

Comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:49:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sara, I think you mean free will coming from an addicts point of view when stopping the addiction. For me, I used opiates most of my life to make me feel better in some way or other. Pain, depression, anger, love….., etc., made me feel uncomfortable. All I knew was when I was opiated, I felt “better.” For a while. I fell in love with the euphoria of ALL opiates. Well, after years of eating, snorting, smoking, shooting dope I became so tore down from conning DR’s, being a middle man in dope deals, generally spending all my cash, and putting all my effort into keeping my jones at bay, that I just didn’t want to be addicted anymore. My choice. I have things that I want to accomplish that I just couldn’t seem to get done addicted. God knows that I gave it enough time to find out if opiates were fucking me up or not. I love the feeling of opiates, I just don’t want to have to be a slave to the grind anymore. I have to admit that the reaction that I got from my family as I nodded out at the table in front of my nephews and my Mom had something to do with it. I never could find that fine line between being half sick or nodding out. I never had enough dope. If I’d have had 5 kilo’s of heroin, I would have been wondering where to get more. I just couldn’t take it any more. All I knew was I had to find a way that actually worked at keeping me from being so sick when I tried to stop. I tried everything that came down the road to no avail until I found Ibogaine. Somehow Ibogaine has interrupted my addiction enough to let me think for myself instead of thinking about my addiction all the time. I’m loving my state of mind now, besides I’m sure there will be plenty of dope out there if I change my mind about it. I really don’t think I will this time. Thanx for asking Sara.    Peace and love to you and your family.  Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Agenda details NYC Ibogaine Forum
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:27:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have included some additional details for the Agenda for the NYC Ibogaine
Forum.  These should be some very interesting sessions.  I am still awaiting
some presenter details and they will hopefully be added in a day or two.

http://ibogaine.org/nyc2005.html

Howard

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:18:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 17:45
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use 
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job,
whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

“It’s all about free will and choices” ,   Randy , as you already know we have choices only when we are aware of them, that is why Howard’s work to educate
The pubic about this choice of getting clean with minor withdrawals with Ibogaine is so important in my opinion, the knowledge about the possibilities should be out in the open like all the other drugs on the market. what do you think, Randy?

Free will is also a state of awareness of the mind .complex , in what extend your free will is your free will. Randy, is like tuning a music instrument,
You only can tune it if you learn how to listen to a tuned instrument, I never learned to tune a guitar so how do you think I can have the free will?
I wish I could at this moment know what you had years to practice for, it is quite the same with tasting a good wine, if you never drink any how would you know
How good wine should taste. Tell me.

S.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 1:11:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this.<

I am doing this Nick because I highly disagree with your opinions about opiates and people who use them. I am perfectly fine with you stating your opinions- that’s not the issue at all. My beef is your prejudice against “junkies” and opiates and the notion that you would be perfectly within reason to have the cops drag junkies out into the light of day and force them to change their ways.
(sorry, I deleted that original message with that statement, but I’m sure I could still dig it out of the deleted box if you insist on telling me you did not write that.)

Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.<

Thanks for the mollification Nick, but who’s to say what pain is valid enough for opiate use? Only physical pain? It’s not ok to use opiates for any other pains? How ’bout for recreational use? How ’bout those who only use it on weekends, for fun? (They do exist and don’t all turn into raging addicts.) How about those who use opiates as a crutch to get through their day? Is that ok with you Nick? Where do you draw the line, and grant your ok to opiate use? Just with my pain, or with all pain? What constitutes pain in your mind? Would you kick the literal crutch out from under someone if you didn’t think their pain or reason for using said crutch was valid, to force them to deal with life on the terms you think people should deal with it? From everything I’ve read from you, like:

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.<

you come across to me to be quite the judgemental authoritarian and that Nick is what bothers me about you. And yes, this is just my opinion, and you are entitled to yours as well- but disagreements are sure to follow each and everytime I see you write something like the above. I’d like to see you write a whole paragraph without using the word “you” in it and personalize what you say, and quit including me in your assessments of life and how things should be. You wrote “just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug.” How in the hell you think you know what “it” leaves ME or anyone BUT YOU is a lot of what bothers the heck out of me about you and what you write here constantly Nick.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please get
this.<

It’s not the stopping that terrifies me Nick, it’s the idea that some prohibitionist maniac can kick in my door and shoot me dead and get away with it so long as he/she claims it was all in the name of a War on Some Drugs and Users. It’s the idea that my doc might move away and leave me stuck having to convince another doc that I’m in pain and need help. It’s the idea that some people look down at others and say that because they bore them they should change their ways. That bit doesn’t terrify me so much as really irritate and aggrevate me.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 11:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

>Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

No, of course I’m not saying that. Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this. Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please get
this.

Nick

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your
right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti
all day long
is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a
position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t
mean that my
judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this
position in
the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this
life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end.
I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing,
in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the
creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with
everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing
which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact
with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your
life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism
Date: February 14, 2005 at 1:05:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM, hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the optimum dose for buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually determined on a patient by patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most patients are dosed between 8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if you meant 2mg was the optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 12:47:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A perfectionist/control freak or suck the juice out of life, so to speak,
and if that is included in that person’s character, then so be it, it is not
all bad or all good anyways.<

I agree Sara, that it is seldom if ever “all good” or “all bad,” no matter who or what the situation (with exceptions of course-which I’m sure I could come up with were I so inclined, but I’m not).
But I have little patience for Nick’s message at all, other than for the “enjoy your life,” which I agree with fully- except I don’t think Nick means for me to enjoy my life the way best suits me, but rather, what I get from him (correct me if I’m wrong Nick, please) is that I cannot enjoy my life, not REALLY, unless I do it his way.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hey Preston,

Nick said , “Enjoy your life” =that  is very positive idea don’t you agree?

Then “It may be your last !”= he doesn’t say “it is”  so may be or may be
not, that mean there is a higher judgment to come, which will decide if
there is last , first or second, but who are we to tell? There are different
ways of thinking that is why God is great!, the mastery of mystery.
It is very positive to think it is last, that can motivate a person to be
A perfectionist/control freak or suck the juice out of life, so to speak,
and if that is included in that person’s character, then so be it, it is not
all bad or all good anyways. It wasn’t my idea in the first place,
If it was up to “me” I would take you all to shambahlalala.

Be well,

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 12:54
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long

is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my

judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in

the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:44:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job, whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:27:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, I’m curious. Have you ever been a junkie? If not, how do you know what a junkies position is? You may have said so and I missed it, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from with an open mind. My provider wanted me to read a book called the 4 Agreements, and the premise is being open to what everyone says, and to not play into the negativity of others, along with a lot of changing your self talk and false beliefs. Kind of a spiritual RET/RBT concept. It’s pretty deep and it took me 5 months to get to it, but well worth the read.
Randy

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Happy V.D.
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:21:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Happy Valentine’s day all…

A perfect day to go to some stylish restaurant or bar and mutter “I had her” walking by annoying couples or in a very concerned voice say to the boyfriend while his love is in the bathroom “Look, I know it’s none of my business but I used to go with her, that girl gave me the worst case of the clap EVER. Just have it checked out pal.” It’s more effective if you can get her name first. Quickly sneak away.

Or perhaps spread a bit of love around. Oh, why not?

Nick ‘n Preston, Dana ‘n Peter… friends instead of foes… it brings a tear to my eye.

Just the thought of Peter and Dana doing the ibo together, wrestling each other on the ground in a friendly (and manly) manner gives me faith in humanity.

“Wow, Dana, all we need is hugs, not drugs! I’m a different man now. Gosh, all these years I’ve been hiding behind my brilliant mind, never really in touch with how I feel. All for the sake of making clever arguments.”

“That’s right…. And Peter, that was very wrong of me to yell at you. I’m sorry. It all seems so silly now. All these years of acting the fool. Perhaps I need to think more before I run my mouth off.”

“I love you man.”

Indeed…

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna and Bupe Q
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:56:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m going through my backlog so sorry this is out-of-date.  I just wanted to
add that I had problems both keeping the tablet under my tongue and the
taste made me sick.  However I found that if I take it lying on my back this
solves both these problems!  Dunno why!  So I take mine when I wake up so
I’m laying in bed.

Just in case it could help anyone!

Hannah 🙂

—– Original Message —–
From: “Kurt Finguerra” <kosmocraterhater@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Donna and Bupe Q

Hi List

Has anyone come off using subutex (buprenorphine??) Im really want to
stop
using and really can not afford ibogaine i have done the sub before
stayed
clean  for a year and started using again.  I wondered what dose to start
with
last time i started at 16mg i thought this was to high.

What and how much are you using?. And are you sure you started with 16mg?.
Its totally possible, though induction usually begins a bit lower, as the
bupe ‘displaces’ the dope, done’, whatever is in there. Dope is a bit
easier
to switch from. You were on it for a year, so you know how it works kinda.
If you have some left over suboxone and your asking how to detox yourself
or
switch, i would do like this:
Do ‘last’ bag(s) of dope. wait 12 hours or until truly feeling withdrawl.
wait until the goosebumps come . If you take bupe to soon, even though you
think your sick(like few hours after last fix when nose starts runnin),
you
will feel kinda bad as the bupe will ‘kickout’ the heroin from the
receptor
site. I have found that waiting till i was sick enough and the bupe
actually
brought a little relief instead of sickness. (12 or so hours for me). I am
now on Suboxone(though I did do ibogaine) and prescribed 6mg a day. This
took about a week to totally work, meaning that i still felt a little off
now and then. I just had a half bundle or 3to4 80’s a day habit, nothing
huge, so It wasn’t horrible. individual variations applicable 🙂

Now, if we suppose a bundle(100-200mgs of dimorphine) a day for a few
months
is the ‘size of habit’, and the dope is decent, I would, after the 12
hours
has passed, take ONE 2mg suboxone(or subutex preferrably at induction then
switch to subutex). If you feel ok to take another in a few hours, ok.
A total of 6mg the first day is good and on day two, 8 mg is ok.
you can go to 12 if need be but 8 I have found is around where the ceiling
effect kicks in.(bupe seems to have a ceiling on the amount of effect it
produces. Its only a partial MU agonist, which partly explains this. So it
means that above a certain dose, bupe dosen’t do anything more(in simple
terms).
I don’t know, tell me donna, how did 16mg  a day make you feel before. Why
did you think it was too much?. Make you tired? Does bupe give you a
feeling?(like say methadone) I find it doesn’t, largely. Any euphoric
feeling is a ‘flicker’ and then is only noticed at all only f you “look
for
it”. It doesn’t do much for me except what its supposed to. Cuts out the
obsessivess over heroin and crew. Cuts out the urge to go do it. And I
know
if I did, I wouldn’t really get a rush or a nod cuz the bupe beats the
heroin out of the recptor site. So I don’t do it. Haven’t yet in a month
and
a half I’ve been on it. Did Ibogaine in sept. Used again in october(19th)
and got on suboxone again  in nov. I was on 16 mg last year but I didn’t
take it, just sold it and did herpin instead. Am on 6mg a day and feel OK.
Still obsess a bit about dope and gang, and Methadone DID do a better job
then bupe, but I can’t afford methadone, that why I don’t get back on. Was
on it for nearly a decade at 120mg a day(clinic) and got off and
withdrawls
were NOT that bad.(not like a tornado of pain like a heroin kick, fast and
fierce, but like a monsoon, slow  and neverending,) Tolerable with bupe
after 5 days off the methadone and have kicked DONE with and without bupe)
surprisng to most folks but its true.
Now the 6 years of xanax/klonopin @12mg a day, that was bad, and that was
same time as methadone.

###Sublingual absorbtion rates for suboxone are around 50-70% of
buprenorphine is absorbed. almost none or 0.03% of the nalaxone makes it
in.
Even if 1 or 2% made it through, it still wouldn’t have an effect.
Anyway, the sublingual route by-pass the metabolic mayhem of first pass
liver metabolism. In most opiates and in bupe, this “kills” 50% or more of
the dose. With buprenorphine, some metabolism is ok, cuz the metabolite
norbuprenorphine is kinda active, but most of the effect is from bupe.
Now, ANY OTHER ROUTE besides sublingual (with suboxone and due to
nalaxone,
parenterally is NOT an option and will be like narcan), is no good. Even
holding the tablets between cheecks isn’t effective, as buccal absorption
rates(meaning cheek) are only 20-30% and the vessels from the cheek cause
first pass metabolic destruction of bupe. Orally this is true as well and
the amount the even passes the gut wall is only around 15-20%. and half
that
is killed right off the bat from the liver(same with the cheeks
absorbtion).
So, I said all this cuz key to sucess with suboxone is the proper dosage
and
proper dosage won’t be achived without proper administration/absorbtion.
Like when the tabs sit under your tounge and your mouth fills up with
spit,
don’t swish around and cause the tabs on the sublingual floor to become
dispersed into the mass of saliva, which usually only ‘touches’ the
cheeks.
Just keep the spit out of the way and let the tabs disolve with as little
disruption as possible. Now that doesn’t mean SWallow the spit, as A
DECENT
AMOUNT of bupe has collected in there anyway despite best efforts and its
better for it to asorb through the cheeks or to put the whole mass under
your tounge in 15 minutes/after the tabs dissolve, than to send it to your
stomach where its gonna pass unabsrobed or if it is absorbed, killed off
by
the liver.  So, in other words, keep tabs under tounge and don’t swallow
for
10 to 15 minutes. You should feel a difference.

I would appreciate  any
advice.
There it is. Sorry it goes on and on. Please respond with any questions.
No
I’m not a doctor, as you can tell but am willing to say that my opinion is
worthwhile.

love donna

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:51:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Suboxone = Subutex + Naloxone

Basically its Subutex but with this stuff added to stop you hitting it up.

Both block the effects of gear…to some extent!
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna

HI
Thanks for getting back to me I used subutex before does the suboxone block effects of gear and do you know if you can take it with subutex????????????
love donna

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:49:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Donna,

I assume you’ll be doing this through your local clinic?  Have you spoken to them yet?  Especially bearing in mind there’s a 6 month waiting list up here!  They will be able to guide you.

Having said that I took things into my own hands regarding dosage because I too though I was given too much.  They put me on 12mg to begin with.  Through my own experimentation I’ve found that 4mg seems to do the trick.  To avoid a habit you could use Sub for up to 3, maybe 4 weeks, reducing as you go.

Will you be on daily supervised dosage?  This can make it difficult to change dosage as you like.  But you should be able to talk through this with your Doctor so you don’t have to be secretive.  Play it by ear.  In a perfect world I’d wait 12hrs (or until you’re rattling but not seriously sick) then take 4mg and wait an hour or 2 and if necessary up your dose.

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it works best at a low dose but you’d have to look into that.

I’m not an expert, this is just my own observations.

As for coming off.  First you need to stabilise yourself and concentrate on staying clean which is why they don’t like you to come off the Sub too quick.  You could swap to Naltrexone after 3 weeks I suppose but I don’t know much about that.

I think first you really need to talk through all your concerns with your Doctor or Clinic nurse.  But I agree they do seem to want to put us on high doses with no regard for the future i.e coming off the Sub!  If its any help I reduced my dose drastically and felt no ill effects but I haven’t stopped altogether-I take about 1mg a day.  Its more a psychological crutch than anything else.  I’m considering swapping to Naltrexone just to help me stay clean but I need to find out more about it first.

Btw, sorry this is totally out of date but I’ve been busy and I’ve got 1270 list emails to go through!!!

Let me know how you’re doing and anything else I can help you with.  Also please remember these are my personal experiences.  I’ll let you know how I feel when I finally stop em for good!

Love Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

Hi List

Has anyone come off using subutex (buprenorphine??) Im really want to stop using and really can not afford ibogaine i have done the sub before stayed clean for a year and started using again.  I wondered what dose to start with last time i started at 16mg i thought this was to high.  I would appreciate any advice.  Jasen keep up the good work you are my inspiration this is definately going to be your year

love donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:06:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard

Thank you that makes me feel alot better

Love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:01:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 14/02/2005 10:22:41 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
Just doing something nice for someone, without expecting anything in return, can make me feel like “a millionaire”.
You sound such a lovely, nice person I wish more people were like you

love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:59:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Nick

I think thats whats happened to me maybe not grown up, but grown out of wanting to feel numbed out and thats how I personally feel on H, my feeling, emotions feel supressed and I dont like it.

Love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:56:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Sara

Thanks for that it has made me feel much better.

Love Donna

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:41:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 11:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

No, of course I’m not saying that. Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this. Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please get
this.

Nick

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your
right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti
all day long
is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a
position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t
mean that my
judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this
position in
the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this
life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end.
I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing,
in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the
creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with
everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing
which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact
with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your
life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

/]=—————————————————————
——=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[
/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Jamilah” <jamilah@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:31:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The substance we used was incredibly active. We had a small amount of powder, and we found we would “get off” on ingesting only a few granules at a time. In fact I remember about 5 of us tripped everyday for about a week on what looked to be a couple grams of material. We were told it was made in West Virginia, and that it would make someone with Parkinson’s feel “normal”, and would only work as a hallucinogen if you didn’t have Parkinson’s. Maybe it was Biperidin?
Peace,
Jamilah
—– Original Message —–
From: Pipetman9@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson

In einer eMail vom 11.02.2005 06:38:35 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt jamilah@erols.com:

Thank you for just clearing a mystery that goes back to my teens in 1969, we did a drug that was billed as a “a drug that treats Parkinson’s disease”. This powdered substance had our perceptions so whacked out, it was extremely memorable, different from any other LSD or mescaline. It was like the funnest drug I’ve ever done. Never knew what it was. I bet it was Trihexylphenidyl  now that I’ve looked it up. Are you experienced?
ciao,
Jamilah

here are some good parkinson links for those interested,
http://www.mindiskey.com/ParkinsonsRefs.html

toxic oxidation products of dopamin itself may cause this disease,  this reaction is catalysed by accumulation of iron in the brain, you need dopamin to feel good but too much of it in combination with iron and polyunsaturated fatty acids that form free radicals in the brain may first kill parts of the brain that have high dopamin concentrations before they make you demented.

If it was trihexy you must have taken a high dose?
I know someone who used  trihexyphenidy in normal dose but not in high dose, in normal dose you may feel some euphoria, he said he felt much better,
incidentally there is an alternative theory about depression as cholinergic hyperactivity of the nervous system, called the Cholinergic
hypothesis of depression, so anticholinergics can in fact be antidepressant drugs.

high dose of all anticholinergics is of course a very strong hallucinogen comparable to Datura or Fly agaric fungus,
Biperidin is another antiparkinson medication that seems to have similar effects as it also is reported to be abused.

regards, Juergen

I enclose some literature references:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Psychiatr Prax. 1988 Mar;15(2):53-6.
[Biperiden abuse as a partial factor in polytoxicomania]
[Article in German]

Schulte RM.

Psychiatrische Klinik II, Universitat Ulm, Bezirkskrankenhaus Gunzburg.

We found 16 patients (15%) taking the anticholinergic biperiden because of its psychotropic action, occasionally, rather frequently or regularly, among a subgroup of 120 drug-dependent patients (drugs of the barbiturate and amphetamin types) out of a studied total of 194 imprisoned male addicts. These biperiden abusers suffered without exception from polytoxicomania associated with drug dependence and alcoholism. Most prominent was drug dependence on drugs of the morphine type. We could not prove a case of an isolated “primary” abuse of biperiden. Direct medical prescription was a rather secondary factor in procuring this preparation, in contrast to analgesics, tranquilisers, barbiturates and clomethiazol. Increase of biperiden abuse is due, on the one hand, to a generally noticeable tendency to polytoxicomania, and on the other hand to a change in Federal German drug prescription rules effective 1 August 1986 according to which fenetylline hydrochloride, a sympathomimetic, is now subject to medical prescription. Other centrally acting anticholinergics were unknown among this group of patients and were not abused. The results are discussed on the basis of available literature

Actas Luso Esp Neurol Psiquiatr Cienc Afines. 1991 Nov-Dec;19(6):298-303.
[Dependence on anticholinergics among schizophrenics. Iatrogenic disease or self-medication?]

[Article in Spanish]

Chamorro Garcia L.

Servicio de Psiquiatria, Hospital General, Insalud de Guadalajara.

This report concerns two schizophrenic patients who had ingested a biperiden overdose between 8 and 14 mg per day. This drug had been prescribed to treat extrapyramidal side effects of neuroleptics. Once the ingestion was suppressed, both patients complained about anxiety, discomfort and depression. These symptoms disappeared when reintroducing the biperiden. Both patients had a previous record of alcohol and cannabis abuse. One of them had also a recorder of sporadic consumption of other drugs such as heroin, amphetamines and hallucinogens. The predominant psychopathology was of the negative type. Through these cases we intend to support the likelihood of a cholinergic hyperactivity in the negative schizophrenic symptoms.

Leg Med (Tokyo). 2004 Oct;6(4):233-41.

Development of a screening method for the most commonly abused anticholinergic drugs in Jordan; trihexyphenidyl, procyclidine and biperiden.

Hadidi KA.

Forensic Medicine and Toxicology Division, Faculty of Medicine, University of Jordan, Amman 11942, Jordan. khadidi@ju.edu.jo

A sensitive and rapid method for the simultaneous determination of three commonly abused anticholinergic drugs in Jordan; trihexyphenidyl, procyclidine, and biperiden in plasma and urine has been developed using solid phase extraction and GC-MS. Linearity was established from therapeutic to fatal concentrations of the three drugs; 5-300 ng/ml in plasma, with correlation coefficient r(2) > or = 0.9978 and 10-800 ng/ml in urine r(2) > or = 0.9993. Recoveries were in the range of 86-92% and intra-day and inter-day relative standard deviations (n = 6) were in the range of 6.6-10.3% for the three drugs at three different concentrations in plasma and urine. The base peak m/z 98 for trihexyphenidyl, m/z 84 for procyclidine, and m/z 98 and 218 for biperiden, and m/z 339 for papaverine (internal standard) were monitored at selective ion monitoring; their retention times were 8.10, 8.67 and 8.92 min, respectively, and 14.79 min for the internal standard with analysis time of 16.75 min. The limit of detection of 0.5 ng/ml was attained for trihexyphenidyl and procyclidine, while for biperiden 2.0 and 1.0 ng/ml in spiked plasma and urine, respectively. This method has been applied to forensic and authentic samples taken from abuser and patients using these drugs. The method will offer the clinicians and the legal authority the right diagnosis regarding the anticholinergic involved in any case of abuse with less than 1 h per sample (plasma or urine) from the time of receiving.

Therapie. 2003 Nov-Dec;58(6):541-7.
[Misuse of trihexyphenidyl (Artane, Parkinane): recent trends]

[Article in French]

Frauger E, Thirion X, Chanut C, Natali F, Debruyne D, Saillard C, Pradel V, Reggio P, Micallef J.

CEIP de Marseille (PACA-Corse, Centre Associe), Laboratoire de Sante Publique, Faculte de Medecine, Marseille, France.

Recent observations suggest the existence of trihexyphenidyl abuse linked to its hallucinogenic and euphoric effects. In order to determine the importance of this practice and the characteristics of those involved, a study based on data from the Provence-Alpes-Cote-d’Azur and the Corsica health reimbursement system was carried out. Individuals from these regions affiliated to the French health reimbursement system who had a prescription for trihexyphenidyl (Artane, Parkinane) reimbursed between January 1, 2001, and February 15, 2001, were selected. The delivery of prescriptions was monitored over a 9-month period. In total, 3028 subjects were selected. A subgroup comprising 2.1% of subjects with deviant behaviour was identified by factorial analysis and compared with the subgroup without deviant behaviour. The subjects with deviant behaviour were young and mostly male. The dosage of trihexyphenidyl was higher in these subjects (28 mg/day versus 7 mg/day) and a greater proportion used benzodiazepine and high-dose buprenorphine compared with those without deviant behaviour. The number of prescriptions delivered was higher (23.0 versus 7.7) as well the number of different physicians (4.9 versus 1.5) and pharmacies (5.0 versus 1.3) for those subjects with deviant behaviour. This study confirms the abuse and dependence potential associated with trihexyphenidyl use and the need to increase the supervision of this drug

Med Clin (Barc). 1991 Jul 6;97(6):239.

[Hallucinosis due to trihexyphenidyl abuse]

[Article in Spanish]

Palao DJ, Arauxo A, Bernardo M.

Psychiatr Serv. 2000 Jul;51(7):928-9.
Misuse of anticholinergic drugs by people with serious mental illness.

Buhrich N, Weller A, Kevans P.

Department of Psychological Medicine, University of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. buhrich@mail.usyd.edu.au

This study assessed misuse of anticholinergic drugs in a population of 50 patients with serious mental illness who were assertively managed by a community-based outreach team in Sydney, Australia. One-third of the subjects reported having misused anticholinergics over the previous month. All anticholinergics were misused, and trihexyphenidyl (benzhexol) was misused most frequently. Most subjects misused at least one other drug as well. On direct questioning, the reason given most frequently was “to get high”; on indirect questioning, reasons were related more to peer participation and feelings of futility. Marginalized patients living in the community are vulnerable to the misuse of anticholinergic drugs

Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1987 Jan;75(1):91-4.
Trihexyphenidyl abuse: therapeutic implications for negative symptoms of schizophrenia?

Fisch RZ.

Trihexyphenidyl (THP) and other antiparkinsonian drugs are known to be substances of abuse. This is true both in abusers of other substances and in chronic schizophrenics, the latter being infrequent abusers of other drugs. Most reports on the abuse of antiparkinsonian drugs among schizophrenic patients warn against the possible harm of this self-medication. The present article describes the different effects of THP on both schizophrenic and non-schizophrenic abusers. The subjective experience in most chronic schizophrenic patients who abuse THP is positive: they claim that THP makes them feel and function better. In the light of these findings, the author suggests that research on the possible benefits of THP in contrast to the potential harm in chronic, residual schizophrenic patients is warranted.

Br J Psychiatry. 1984 Sep;145:300-3.
A study of benzhexol abuse.

Crawshaw JA, Mullen PE.

The occasional abuse of anticholinergic drugs for their psychotropic and specifically hallucinogenic properties has been known for over a century, but benzhexol (trihexyphenidyl) abuse has only recently attracted attention in the literature, mainly in case reports. This paper reports on a study of 21 benzhexol abusers. They were a young, single, and disadvantaged group of polydrug abusers with poor employment, educational, and social skills, who abused benzhexol mainly for its euphorogenic properties. The two major diagnostic categories were antisocial personality disorder and schizophrenia. An unexpected finding was cognitive impairment persisting after acute intoxication.

Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1984 Jun;69(6):538-42.
Trihexyphenidyl dependence.

McInnis M, Petursson H.

Trihexyphenidyl, a synthetic anticholinergic, is frequently used concurrently with neuroleptics to control extrapyramidal side effects. We present two case reports of trihexyphenidyl abuse which concur with the increasing concern expressed regarding the abuse potential of trihexyphenidyl. In one of the cases a double-blind, placebo-controlled withdrawal was conducted and monitored on a number of physiological parameters and the Hamilton Anxiety Rating Scale. A recognizable withdrawal syndrome followed discontinuation of the drug. In addition to the abuse potential it is suggested that dependence liability be considered in maintenance therapy with trihexyphenidyl and other antiparkinsonians.

J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1983 Aug;3(4):263-4.
High dose trihexyphenidyl abuse with psychological dependence.

Sofair J, Campion J, Angrist B.

Br J Psychiatry. 1982 May;140:473-4.
Trihexyphenidyl (Artane) abuse: euphoriant and anxiolytic.

Kaminer Y, Munitz H, Wijsenbeek H.

Ann Emerg Med. 1981 Feb;10(2):98-100.
Abuse of antiparkinsonian drugs.

Craig DH, Rosen P.

Abuse of the antiparkinsonian agents for their hallucinogenic and euphoriant effects is likely more prevalent than reported. Two clinical cases are presented, with discussion of symptoms and response to a diagnostic trial of physostigmine.

J Clin Psychiatry. 1980 Oct;41(10):351-4.
Abuse of the antiparkinson drugs: a review of the literature.

Smith JM.

A review of the literature indicates that the anticholinergic antiparkinson drugs can be abused by some patients to achieve pleasurable effects ranging from a mild euphoria with increased sociability at the lower doses to a toxic anticholinergic psychosis with disorientation and hallucinations at higher doses. Trihexyphenidyl may have a greater potential for abuse but there has been no systematic data on this issue. While the abuse of these drugs may not be widespread, it is yet another factor arguing for their judicious use.

JAMA. 1978 Jun 2;239(22):2365-6.
Abuse of antiparkinsonism drugs. Feigning of extrapyramidal symptoms to obtain trihexyphenidyl.

Rubinstein JS.

Many physicians may be unaware of the abuse potential of antiparkinsonism medications. A case report suggests that the deliberate abuse of these drugs may be considerably more widespread than has been hitherto believed. Patients may feign extrapyramidal symptoms to obtain antiparkinsonism agents. Physicians should exercise greater caution when prescribing these drugs.

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 7:54:17 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston,

Nick said , “Enjoy your life” =that  is very positive idea don’t you agree?

Then “It may be your last !”= he doesn’t say “it is”  so may be or may be
not, that mean there is a higher judgment to come, which will decide if
there is last , first or second, but who are we to tell? There are different
ways of thinking that is why God is great!, the mastery of mystery.
It is very positive to think it is last, that can motivate a person to be
A perfectionist/control freak or suck the juice out of life, so to speak,
and if that is included in that person’s character, then so be it, it is not
all bad or all good anyways. It wasn’t my idea in the first place,
If it was up to “me” I would take you all to shambahlalala.

Be well,

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 12:54
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long

is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my

judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in

the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 7:00:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote, kinda confusing me, again >Shit, man, do you just want to stay in a fear position your whole life?<

What are you talking about? I’m not in a position of fear, only now I’m going to be even more careful about what I admit to on this list with you around. That’s not fear, that’s intelligence.

Why
not take a position of moving toward what you fear, check it out, is it
really so scary?<

Proving my point very well, in that you’ve no clue about me or anything I’ve done in my life, yet you’re willing to make blanket judements about me and my life.

Am I really so terrible?<

I don’t know Nick, not having met you face to face, but I do think that what you are writing on this list is, yes, very terrible – but then, I only speak for me, knowing full well I can’t speak for anyone else, which is what I get from your messages, that you know what is best for everyone else and seem to think you have the right to demand certain behavior of others or they’re not living right, and yes, that’s terrible in my mind.
.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 22:49
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

>I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
>dare to judge, to lay my trip on people,<

sigh.
Boy did you get something a LOT different than I did from my own ibogaine
experiences Nick.
Ibogaine “taught” you to be judgmental? That’s about the worst
advertisement I’ve seen yet for ibogaine Nick, the very worst. I seem to
remember this philosopher typeperson, some say a messiah type,
saying at one
point, “judge not lest ye get judged,” or something along those lines in
Aramaic (sp?), and “don’t throw stones in glass houses,” or “those who
haven’t sinned cast the first stone,” and other things like this,
you know,
about not judging others. Again, I’m seriously glad you aren’t in
any way,
shape or form in control of my life Nick and never will be. Very,
very glad.
And again you’ve reminded me to watch my mouth around you because
I’d never
trust you for even one second with anything, as you might someday use it
against me in some misguided notion that you’d be “helping” me because
you’ve judged me in need of your help. That’s just so scary, that
you are of
this mindset. It sounds so, I don’t know, demonic or something.

Peace and love,
Preston

Shit, man, do you just want to stay in a fear position your whole life? Why
not take a position of moving toward what you fear, check it out, is it
really so scary? Am I really so terrible?

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 6:54:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 6:09:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/14/05 4:35:09 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:

Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock
bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get
clean?????)

No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:27:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: shelley krupa [mailto:skrupa20022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] here I go again!

Hey list! Everythings set for my session on feb 19th!! !Ive never done it in a hotel setting, only a clinic & at an angels home. Any suggestions? Ive set up music,earplugs,face mask for room darkening.Also got my sound machine with lots of flowing water options,and essential oil aromatherapy too.Doing an adjoining room at my providers request.Kinda weird that Ive never met the sitter,but he’s experienced I hear &” real sweet”.Vibes in hotels can be real weird sometimes.You’d think at trip # four I’d be confident,guess my ego is trying to hold on to some control,HA! I’m wanting support from you folks,please. I have total confidence in this provider,the rest is up to the iboga gods.Got two weeks off work to recoup & integrate back slowly without the pressure of my work persona. I’ll keep yall posted ,love shell

Hey Shelley,

Taking ibogaine always scares me, thus far anyway. I think it’s part of the whole experience. I breathe, which is always good, but I still get scared. Your ego will let go when it feels safe to do so. Mine does, that’s my experience.

Let us know what happens.

Nick

Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:15:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 10:54
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

Dear Nick,

That’s exactly want I meant, we all have a different believe system which makes us unique, it doesn’t worry me if this is my only life time or not,
I know where I’m standing for and I respect and adapt to my ancestors teachings and wisdom.
Just doing something nice for someone, without expecting anything in return, can make me feel like “a millionaire”.

Love,

Sara

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:13:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 14 February 2005 10:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

 

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 10:34
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 13/02/2005 23:21:49 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get clean?????)

No, I don’t think so. Some people hit rock bottom and still don’t stop and some just want to keep their job/ teeth/ wife/ study/life… and stop .

Lately I had a lady who wanted to stop because she nodded out against a heater and her back was burnt black, she was in a lot of pain but desired to stop
And she did it here and she is still clean since few months.

S.

A lot of people just grow up whilst on heroin and hit a place where they just do want to stop. That’s my experience.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:06:21 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 22:49
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people,<

sigh.
Boy did you get something a LOT different than I did from my own ibogaine
experiences Nick.
Ibogaine “taught” you to be judgmental? That’s about the worst
advertisement I’ve seen yet for ibogaine Nick, the very worst. I seem to
remember this philosopher typeperson, some say a messiah type,
saying at one
point, “judge not lest ye get judged,” or something along those lines in
Aramaic (sp?), and “don’t throw stones in glass houses,” or “those who
haven’t sinned cast the first stone,” and other things like this,
you know,
about not judging others. Again, I’m seriously glad you aren’t in
any way,
shape or form in control of my life Nick and never will be. Very,
very glad.
And again you’ve reminded me to watch my mouth around you because
I’d never
trust you for even one second with anything, as you might someday use it
against me in some misguided notion that you’d be “helping” me because
you’ve judged me in need of your help. That’s just so scary, that
you are of
this mindset. It sounds so, I don’t know, demonic or something.

Peace and love,
Preston

Shit, man, do you just want to stay in a fear position your whole life? Why
not take a position of moving toward what you fear, check it out, is it
really so scary? Am I really so terrible?

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:59:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 10:34
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 13/02/2005 23:21:49 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get clean?????)

No, I don’t think so. Some people hit rock bottom and still don’t stop and some just want to keep their job/ teeth/ wife/ study/life… and stop .

Lately I had a lady who wanted to stop because she nodded out against a heater and her back was burnt black, she was in a lot of pain but desired to stop
And she did it here and she is still clean since few months.

S.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:54:23 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:34:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 13/02/2005 23:21:49 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.
Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get clean?????)

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Allison/Ibogaine and Hep C
Date: February 14, 2005 at 3:28:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for your support & information Randy.  All help gratefully received and counting down to better times soon I hope,  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Saturday, 12 February 2005 4:20:17 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Allison/Ibogaine and Hep C

Allison, I’ve been meaning to tell you something that the Doc.’s all told me when I went through the Interferon treatment, all 3 of them, SMOKE HERB, as much as you need!!! They would never admit that they told me that, but they did. Marinol doesn’t work near as well. I know how you feel, I felt real bad at the end too. Hell, I felt bad the whole time, it was just worse at the end. I have to admit that being on Methadone helped too, as I didn’t have the energy to be able to keep my addiction at bay any other way. If I had the information then that I have now, I would have done the Ibogaine first, and then checked my blood work to see if I still needed to do the Interferon blues. Trip and learn, or live and learn, or something like that. I won’t shut up ’till we have that information about Ibogaine and Hep C.     Randy

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 14, 2005 at 2:06:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jim wrote “Most places will not ship to anyone in the U.S. Others like Indra.com will not ship any P.O. Box, which makes me wonder why they bothered to charge my card in the first place.”

Because they are not honest or reliable people , is that strange?
Van: Jim Hadey [mailto:jimhadey3@yahoo.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 2:37
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe

Hi Betty,

I know the situation your in.  I too live near the Canadian Border.  It would be nice if you had a friend who you could trust in Canada.  What I did is get a P.O. Box, I think Mail Boxes Ect.  That way they don’t know that your suite number is really a P.O. Box number.  Of course it cost more than a P.O. Box at the post office.  I paid something like $62 for 3 or 6 months.  Too bad it is illegal in the U.S. forcing people to spend more money or brake the law.  If you get a hotel room start with two days and leave when able.  But I, as well as others, will strongly advise against taking it alone.  Have someone with you ( called a sitter ) regardless of where you take it.  Most people get sick and lose their lunch.  If you should do this while laying on your back unable to move, you could drowned in your own puke.  Also, you may need help getting to the bathroom, getting a drink, food, etc.  Usually you arn’t hungry for a few days and you usually go several days with little if any sleep.  But it is important to drink water and keep yourself hydrated.  Keep in the room things like pears, oranges, apples and fresh fruit for when you come off the ibo.

Most places will not ship to anyone in the U.S. Others like Indra.com will not ship any P.O. Box, which makes me wonder why they bothered to charge my card in the first place. He will then ask you to provide more ID.  Right, in the day and age of ID theft he wants you to send in a water or gas bill or copy of your drivers license.  He doesn’t mention this until AFTER he accepts your order and charges you card ( I just don’t like the guy ),  But there is one company that will sell the HCL but only for Canadian citizens.  Which is why I would say I have no debit or charge card will you accept a money order (some will accept Western Union but it is a little bit more expensive.  When  you receive it you can get a hotel room (spend a little more and get a quiet one if necessary), or you can take your chances bringing it across the border.  If I were to do something like that I would hide it or put it into some kind of empty bottle that had health food stuff in it.  It can be a felony if customs want to push it.  However, if you use the right company to buy from, there is only one that sells the HCL which from what I understand is better but cost more.  Try reaching them by phone or e-mail ( make a new Yahoo.com account only with Yahoo.ca  don’t tell them it is a P.O. Box.  Tell them that you have no debit or credit card and if they would take a P.O. money order or any mail order for that matter.  For you address use your P.O. Box with Name, Suite, City, prov. and zip.

Ibo has a harder time with those using methadone or bupe due to fact that they are longer lasting.  May I ask how many mg of bupe are you taking and how long you have been taking it?

There are others on here that could tell you more about taking ibo to get off bupe and there is a lot of experience on this forum.  If you have any questions drop me a line addressed to jimhadey@ yahoo.com.  Seems that I don’t have enough time to read all the letters.  But of all the web sites I have visited I have found this to be the best.  There are many people that will share their problems and solutions with you.  Many speaking from years of experience.
Hope I helped, wishing you the best of luck,

– JIM
Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off 
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult 
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding 
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks


Betty

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 13, 2005 at 11:02:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Shell,

Go shelly baby,I will light a candle for you.
Make sure someone is with you,..hey.

If anyone in Queensland Australia needs a sitter
contact me, I will help and sit with you,be there
for you and nurse you.

Thankyou Sara, I will call soon.

Go Shelly baby!     Yeah!
love,
Jasen 😉
—– Original Message —–
From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:05 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] here I go again!

Hey list! Everythings set for my session on feb 19th!! !Ive never done it in a hotel setting, only a clinic & at an angels home. Any suggestions? Ive set up music,earplugs,face mask for room darkening.Also got my sound machine with lots of flowing water options,and essential oil aromatherapy too.Doing an adjoining room at my providers request.Kinda weird that Ive never met the sitter,but he’s experienced I hear &” real sweet”.Vibes in hotels can be real weird sometimes.You’d think at trip # four I’d be confident,guess my ego is trying to hold on to some control,HA! I’m wanting support from you folks,please. I have total confidence in this provider,the rest is up to the iboga gods.Got two weeks off work to recoup & integrate back slowly without the pressure of my work persona. I’ll keep yall posted ,love shell
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter
Date: February 13, 2005 at 10:13:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Re: [Ibogaine] PeterPeter wrote >If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see  why I use the example of homosexuality?<

Well, while I tend to agree with you in most ways Peter, I myself do know from experience that under today’s system of prohibition, it is a very hard road to toe while strung out (call it what you will- addicted, habitual user, self-absorbed, whatever), doging prohibition’s enforcers while trying to scrape enough money together each and every day just to feel “not sick,” and life really can be extremely difficult to live like that- and yet as difficult and outright hellish as it can get, many of us still have trouble stopping. Again, I fully agree with you that we should be allowed to live and take any drug we so desire, including opiates and everything else really, and shouldn’t have to worry about stopping, but we do unfortunately. With this in mind, I am totally behind ibogaine, in that it sure was a nifty, amazing, beautiful way to completely cut my opiate use to miniscule levels (without my stupid pain issues, I would not have continued taking opiates actually).
This is why people might have a desire to have a way to “cure” the situation when people find themselves really prefering not to use drugs rather than go to jail, lose their home, etc, etc, and yet find themselves unable to find the “will power” (which I’m not entirely convinced is what’s needed anyway, having gone through this stupid situation again and again my own damned self) or whatever it is to quit taking the drugs.
The way we’ve set up the situation these days, it’s hard really to come up with the one sure way of doing and even looking at this situation, because we all unfortunately are not even getting the same results or repurcussions from our drug uses and abuses.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.<

Bingo, and now that I’ve written the above, I see you go on to say much the same thing, in different words.

But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink can open some eyes.<

Bingo again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Peter Cohen
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Ms Iboga
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter

Okay Julie, apologies accepted.

Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hunderds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a statal system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?
These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.
When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see why I use the example of homosexuality?

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discrimanotory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy, an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.
This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink  can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )
The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether  when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

pc

At 09:09 -0800 13-02-2005, Ms Iboga wrote:
Hi Peter,

My apologies for the misunderstanding…I guess I
mis-read that paragraph.  I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

Julie

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: Jim Hadey <jimhadey3@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 13, 2005 at 8:37:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Betty,

I know the situation your in.  I too live near the Canadian Border.  It would be nice if you had a friend who you could trust in Canada.  What I did is get a P.O. Box, I think Mail Boxes Ect.  That way they don’t know that your suite number is really a P.O. Box number.  Of course it cost more than a P.O. Box at the post office.  I paid something like $62 for 3 or 6 months.  Too bad it is illegal in the U.S. forcing people to spend more money or brake the law.  If you get a hotel room start with two days and leave when able.  But I, as well as others, will strongly advise against taking it alone.  Have someone with you ( called a sitter ) regardless of where you take it.  Most people get sick and lose their lunch.  If you should do this while laying on your back unable to move, you could drowned in your own puke.  Also, you may need help getting to the bathroom, getting a drink, food, etc.  Usually you arn’t hungry for a few days and you usually go several days with little if any sleep.  But it is important to drink water and keep yourself hydrated.  Keep in the room things like pears, oranges, apples and fresh fruit for when you come off the ibo.

Most places will not ship to anyone in the U.S. Others like Indra.com will not ship any P.O. Box, which makes me wonder why they bothered to charge my card in the first place. He will then ask you to provide more ID.  Right, in the day and age of ID theft he wants you to send in a water or gas bill or copy of your drivers license.  He doesn’t mention this until AFTER he accepts your order and charges you card ( I just don’t like the guy ),  But there is one company that will sell the HCL but only for Canadian citizens.  Which is why I would say I have no debit or charge card will you accept a money order (some will accept Western Union but it is a little bit more expensive.  When  you receive it you can get a hotel room (spend a little more and get a quiet one if necessary), or you can take your chances bringing it across the border.  If I were to do something like that I would hide it or put it into some kind of empty bottle that had health food stuff in it.  It can be a felony if customs want to push it.  However, if you use the right company to buy from, there is only one that sells the HCL which from what I understand is better but cost more.  Try reaching them by phone or e-mail ( make a new Yahoo.com account only with Yahoo.ca  don’t tell them it is a P.O. Box.  Tell them that you have no debit or credit card and if they would take a P.O. money order or any mail order for that matter.  For you address use your P.O. Box with Name, Suite, City, prov. and zip.

Ibo has a harder time with those using methadone or bupe due to fact that they are longer lasting.  May I ask how many mg of bupe are you taking and how long you have been taking it?

There are others on here that could tell you more about taking ibo to get off bupe and there is a lot of experience on this forum.  If you have any questions drop me a line addressed to jimhadey@ yahoo.com.  Seems that I don’t have enough time to read all the letters.  But of all the web sites I have visited I have found this to be the best.  There are many people that will share their problems and solutions with you.  Many speaking from years of experience.
Hope I helped, wishing you the best of luck,

– JIM
Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

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From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter
Date: February 13, 2005 at 6:02:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Okay Julie, apologies accepted.

Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hunderds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a statal system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?
These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.
When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see  why I use the example of homosexuality?

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discrimanotory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy, an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.
This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink  can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )
The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether  when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

pc

At 09:09 -0800 13-02-2005, Ms Iboga wrote:
Hi Peter,

My apologies for the misunderstanding…I guess I
mis-read that paragraph.  I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 5:49:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people,<

sigh.
Boy did you get something a LOT different than I did from my own ibogaine experiences Nick.
Ibogaine “taught” you to be judgmental? That’s about the worst advertisement I’ve seen yet for ibogaine Nick, the very worst. I seem to remember this philosopher typeperson, some say a messiah type, saying at one point, “judge not lest ye get judged,” or something along those lines in Aramaic (sp?), and “don’t throw stones in glass houses,” or “those who haven’t sinned cast the first stone,” and other things like this, you know, about not judging others. Again, I’m seriously glad you aren’t in any way, shape or form in control of my life Nick and never will be. Very, very glad. And again you’ve reminded me to watch my mouth around you because I’d never trust you for even one second with anything, as you might someday use it against me in some misguided notion that you’d be “helping” me because you’ve judged me in need of your help. That’s just so scary, that you are of this mindset. It sounds so, I don’t know, demonic or something.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness ” of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 5:40:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Beautifully said Sara, very beautifully said.
Wish I’d put it this way but I didn’t. Darn it.
I realize this is a pithy going-nowhere reply, but I felt compelled to respond.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Sara Glatt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness ” of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2005 19:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely.
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all,
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox 94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 5:30:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. <

LOL, YOU don’t care Nick? Again, LOL, thank goodness you’re around to put things into perspective for me. I’m glad you have the knowhow to tell me and everyone else what is and what isn’t “natural.”
What hubris. You never cease to amaze me.

Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.<

Again, LOL. I myself prefer to look at everything as a learning tool and teacher, and I can and do learn from everything Nick.

Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely.
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all,
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox 94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 4:28:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2005 20:59
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

From: Iboga Mama <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RUxPerienced?
Date: February 13, 2005 at 4:02:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter said he thought even partaking of the Ibogaine Interesting
Experience wouldn’t alter his subjective position that anchors his
thinking on the matter.

I’m not sure that assumption will/would hold up in practice.  It is
perhaps, how did the sandbagger put it?, a “mindy” approach to the
mystical.

And, for a counter-example, all of the social scientists who went and
“looked” at the hippie or commune or psychedelic cultural revolution
or whatever you wanna call it, were changed by the experiential
dimension of the participant-observation.

It would, I cerebrally offer, be likely to change something.

love from ny, rachel, ibo-wife

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 2:58:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 2:17:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2005 19:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.  

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any 
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely. 
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s 
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are 
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as 
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current 
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine 
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t 
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal 
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit 
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem 
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense 
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both 
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all, 
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see 
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.



Peace and love,
Preston Peet

”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often 
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, 
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– 
From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan


Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom 
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to 
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person 
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational 
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.



—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

”you never know”.

Sara



—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan


— The Garden wrote:

> Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

> —– Original Message —–
> From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
>
> In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
> writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
> Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
> otherwise.
> Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
> is
> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
> to
> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
> to
> attach to.
>
> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination
>
> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
> not
> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
> unthinkable
> even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
> idea
> in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )
>
> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
> book
> about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
> USE
> IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
> mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)
>
> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
>
> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
> attribute
> healing to.
>
> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as
>
> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
> seek
> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
>
> or wife we hate.
> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as
>
> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
> countries
> for most (the rich excepted).
> I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
> getting
> rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.
>
> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
> and
> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
> defeatist
> voodoo ideology.
>
> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
> ciao
> pc
>
> PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
> Orleans
> gig.
>
>
> Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
> getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
> Randy
>
>
> — 
>
> ————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>
>



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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 13, 2005 at 2:05:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey list! Everythings set for my session on feb 19th!! !Ive never done it in a hotel setting, only a clinic & at an angels home. Any suggestions? Ive set up music,earplugs,face mask for room darkening.Also got my sound machine with lots of flowing water options,and essential oil aromatherapy too.Doing an adjoining room at my providers request.Kinda weird that Ive never met the sitter,but he’s experienced I hear &” real sweet”.Vibes in hotels can be real weird sometimes.You’d think at trip # four I’d be confident,guess my ego is trying to hold on to some control,HA! I’m wanting support from you folks,please. I have total confidence in this provider,the rest is up to the iboga gods.Got two weeks off work to recoup & integrate back slowly without the pressure of my work persona. I’ll keep yall posted ,love shell

Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

_________________________________________________________________
Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented MicrosoftŪ SmartScreen
Technology
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Start enjoying all the benefits of MSNŪ Premium right now and get the
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From: “Betty Boop” <betty_bupe@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 13, 2005 at 1:29:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off bupe?  i guess i’m a wimp  but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding treatment somewhere in Canada .  Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

_________________________________________________________________
Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented MicrosoftŪ SmartScreen Technology  http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines  Start enjoying all the benefits of MSNŪ Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 1:14:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely.
I don’t think Cohen i