Ibogaine List Archives – 2005-02-2

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:44:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Lee,

Interesting post, I also had a lot of  shit happen during my life like most people., except I was sexually abused by teenage girls when I was 3,…crazy ay,..wish they would do it now.
Any teenage girls out there that are still interested. 🙂

They would strip down take my clothes of and put me in the bed between them,..I don’t really remember exactly what they did,..I just remember I did not like it.
I have always been ok with it,…because they were girls I suppose.

I am listening to Led Zeppelin,..people are telling me to get with the times,..hey I have a lot of catching up to do.

Then when I was 4 my mother died of womb cancer and I was told and heard through the whispers that it was my fault (what a crock of shit) they said that if she
hadn’t had me she would be ok,…I believed it till I got a bit older and realised it was just hurtful bullshit. We left Beirut after mum died and came to Australia,
the only female bonding I had was my beautiful sister,..all my aunties uncles cousins ect were in Beirut. Dad did not have a wife to help him so he was very hard on us. When I was belted my hands would be tied behind my back and legs also tied then belted with a doubled up rope, not as bad as what Francis copped, i was not ever knocked out however would have welts all over me.

My father would lock the lounge room door which lead into the kitchen before going to work, if I did not wake up in time,I would not be able to have breakfeast or make any lunch, so at school I would be very hungry,I would come home that weak with hunger that I would eat the white tip of grasses, raid the neibours mandarin tree (when in season) there were times I would be faint with hunger waiting for dad to get home.

I would sometimes get up to mischief on the school holidays, so dad used to lock me in the garage early in the morning before going to work with two sandwiches and a bucket to go to the toilet in. He would let me out when he got home at 5:45pm. My father was beautiful in many ways, however very old fashioned and understandably qui9ck to go of his head with 4 children to bring up and work full time. He was at his wits end with us,..I understand what he did now. I love him.

Dad also died of cancer,..I nursed him for 3 months and was there when he passed on,went home. I had a nasty break with a straight girl I went out with and lost 10’s of thousands in our business venture. My brother was then murdered whilst working,..two years ago, he was my best friend, I saw him die also.

(I saw my brother when I took the Iboga)

Many more things,…however I will not bore you. We all have our hurts and pains our injustices,..this is life. I have had it better than 90% of the world population,..My experiences have made me who I am today,..they gave me depth of character,..even being addicted to opiates from the age of 15,..I do not regret any of it. It has been part of my life experiences,..and Wow what a journey. I love it,…life. None of this gives me a reason to use,..I don’t know if it ever did.

What I am trying to say is there are many many people who have had much harder lives than this and they don’t use or have a crutch,..I feel personally that there is
something else behind it,..behing becoming an addict.  To me heroin would fill that gap inside me,that gap that told you something was missing,..I believe that gap is the feeling of seperation from the all,..our longing to be contected,.. loved without condition. Heroin gave me a feeling of full love, it filled me, made me feel whole.

I beleive that this is why most “other” treatments don’t work it leaves you with the “gap” a feeling of emptiness,..Iboga filled my heart with honey,..it filled the gap,..
I feel whole,..all man. Iboga is the only thing that haas worked worked for me.

love,
Jasen.

From: bm <bmali1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ecstacy 2
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:40:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1416073,00.html
Ecstasy trials for combat stress
David Adam, science correspondent
Thursday February 17, 2005
The Guardian

American soldiers traumatised by fighting in Iraq and
Afghanistan are to be offered the drug ecstasy to help
free them of flashbacks and recurring nightmares.
The US food and drug administration has given the
go-ahead for the soldiers to be included in an
experiment to see if MDMA, the active ingredient in
ecstasy, can treat post-traumatic stress disorder.

Scientists behind the trial in South Carolina think
the feelings of emotional closeness reported by those
taking the drug could help the soldiers talk about
their experiences to therapists. Several victims of
rape and sexual abuse with post-traumatic stress
disorder, for whom existing treatments are
ineffective, have been given MDMA since the research
began last year.

Michael Mithoefer, the psychiatrist leading the trial,
said: “It’s looking very promising. It’s too early to
draw any conclusions but in these treatment-resistant
people so far the results are encouraging.

“People are able to connect more deeply on an
emotional level with the fact they are safe now.”

He is about to advertise for war veterans who fought
in the last five years to join the study.

According to the US national centre for post-traumatic
stress disorder, up to 30% of combat veterans suffer
from the condition at some point in their lives.

Known as shell shock during the first world war and
combat fatigue in the second, the condition is
characterised by intrusive memories, panic attacks and
the avoidance of situations which might force
sufferers to relive their wartime experiences.

Dr Mithoefer said the MDMA helped people discuss
traumatic situations without triggering anxiety.

“It appears to act as a catalyst to help people move
through whatever’s been blocking their success in
therapy.”

The existing drug-assisted therapy sessions last up to
eight hours, during music is played. The patients
swallow a capsule containing a placebo or 125mg of
MDMA – about the same or a little more than a typical
ecstasy tablet.

Psychologists assess the patients before and after the
trial to judge whether the drug has helped.

The study has provoked controversy, because
significant doubts remain about the long-term risks of
ecstasy.

Animal studies suggest that it lowers levels of the
brain chemical serotonin, and some politicians and
anti-drug campaigners have argued that research into
possible medical benefits of illegal drugs presents a
falsely reassuring message.

The South Carolina study marks a resurgence of
interest in the use of controlled psychedelic and
hallucinogenic drugs. Several studies in the US are
planned or are under way to investigate whether MDMA,
LSD and psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic
mushrooms, can treat conditions ranging from obsessive
compulsive disorder to anxiety in terminal cancer
patients.

=====
” lord , make me chaste , but not yet ” St.Augstine of Hippo
Very bad isn’t dead (“Things can get worse.”)–Haitian Proverbs
“A truth that’s told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.” William Blake.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: bm <bmali1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ecstacy 1
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:38:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

linked are a comment and article on use of ecstacy by
the US GOVT .

http://blog.lewrockwell.com/

Drug War Hypocrisy
Posted by Anthony Gregory at 06:50 PM

For years, MDMA was used clinically for psychiatric
treatment, marital counseling, helping people get over
post-traumatic stress disorder, and dealing with
addiction problems. The drug was invented in the early
20th century and accepted by many scientists as having
some medical uses. Then the feds made it illegal,
along with other empathogens and hallucinogens. After
that – surprise! – it became wildly popular in
colleges and dance clubs. For a few years, there was
some hysteria over this “designer drug” – which, like
“assault weapon,” means something the feds don’t like
– and possession of it became punished through
increasingly draconian means and unconstitutional
mandatory minimum sentences. About five years ago,
there were some proposals to make it illegal to have
it in one’s bloodstream, unusual even for the drug
war, and the drug was seen as a menace that would
justify banning speech about it. Censorship was in the
original draft of Feinstein and Hatch’s
“Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act,” later
renamed the “Club-drug Anti-Proliferation Act,” and
once again renamed the warm and fuzzy “Children’s
Health and Safety Act.”

Yes, MDMA (or “ecstacy”) seems to cause long-term
problems in large doses, but there’s been junk science
on the issue as well, including a doctored photo of a
brain of a user that became famous. (BTW, I hope no
one reads this as an endorsement of the drug.) But
what of the original medical uses, before the feds
turned it into a forbidden fruit? Is it really, like
marijuana supposedly is, totally without any medicinal
value? And if so, why is it now being administered to
U.S. soldiers with shell shock from Afghanistan and
Iraq “to help free them of flashbacks and recurring
nightmares,” in the precise way it was used clinically
for years before it was made illegal? Of course, the
state typically exempts itself from its own laws, and
this is simply one more example. Either the drug has
some medical benefits, in which case it does not
belong under Schedule I, the most restricted federal
category, even under current federal guidelines, or it
doesn’t have such benefits and the state is doping its
troops up on so

=====
” lord , make me chaste , but not yet ” St.Augstine of Hippo
Very bad isn’t dead (“Things can get worse.”)–Haitian Proverbs
“A truth that’s told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.” William Blake.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:31:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee and Shelly,

A prayer of guidance has already been said.
Just sent some more.

Hoping your freind heals quickly.

I just lit a candle in Australia for you both.
love,
Jasen.

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From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:17:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, you said the Whole Story, the reason a junkie’s life is HELL is becauseof legislation determining the illegality, and the fact that we intimidated all other countries to change their laws to mimic the United States. Certainly we would have some overdoses, and certainly all would not be idyllic with legal oiates, however Hell is because of what we go thru to keep a job, a habit, a secret, and then what society and law enforcement does to us because of our use….!.

Brad Fisher
Your Wheel Estate Specialist
Guaranty RV
brad.fisher@guaranty.com
541-912-3215
800-283-9163 ext.3053
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

>Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i >use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only >relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up >only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few >lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next >shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as >rock/meth/blow etc –<

if drugs were legal, so many of those consequences, the resulting hell, would not exist for a user. I know what I’m talking about, please believe me. I do know what I’m talking about. I can assure you that if you took away the running the streets, the sneaking and coniving, the need to do anything to obtain a smidgen of the drug, it wouldn’t be always bad. It just wouldn’t be.

The key, the proof to this is so obvious: Otherwise, “they” would not be prescribing opiates for pain if all use was going to be bad, and having said that, as a chronic pain patient I do not have a “meager existance.” I’ve taken steps to make sure my existance is not meager by participating in my existance regardless of whether I need opiates to do it comfortably enough or not.
Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

(but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no
>negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >
Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc —
Drug addiction can very well be compared to sexual abuse.  Both have suffered extremely although in different ways ie the drug user by abondoing his soul/familly/self etc the victim of sexual abuse in loosing faith in others/in his own worth etc.  However to know what the other person feels like you have to experience it your self.  that said it is only feasible tht a victim of sexual abuse cannot fathom the pain in a drug addict but both tread on the same path–the only solution and by no means simple is to look back and resolve it
Regards
matt

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction &
Sexual Abuse >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:29:37 -0500 > >>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >>based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >>the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >>straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.< > >On the Streets, or on COPS? >On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some >horrific behavior or other? >On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television >propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)? >How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how >much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or >shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users >in the very worst light? >Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think >we’re shown such “criminal” figures: >—– > >http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm > >excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice? >by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the >Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”) > >snip- > >With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new >business and means of control that can be instituted without giving >up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs
>industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White >House
Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug >Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the >fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the >situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when >discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for >such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement >involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” >on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse
>Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide >devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of >addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now >explained. > > “DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference > >in
the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment >and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” >asserted the retired general. “They have created a company >consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most >exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise >of developing highly effective medical treatment options for >addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over >100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as >McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 >Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal
>costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per >year.”[11] > > Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and >profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of > >prohibitionist
Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his >declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan >Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New >York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping >$1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of >crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable >companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech >on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals >to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in >crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and >raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is >around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said. > > “In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in
>the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the >previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies > >don’t
usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and >embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of >everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything >shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a >warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s >War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as >fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United >States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by >prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of
>druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today. > > >snip-
> >9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001
><www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123> > >10. Ibid. > >11.
McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000. > >12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics >of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70. >snip- >—– > >>Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual >>abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it >>is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to >>comprehend the experience of an addict?< > >I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on >anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree >entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime
>or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or >have
gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in >jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice >experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I >don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug >use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am
>not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil >company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil >company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, >but >I’m
not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I >suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know. > >>When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >>outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >>(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >>will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.< > >As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against >anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from >them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my >years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as >you Lee. > > >Peace and love, >Preston > >”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is >often mistaken for madness” >Richard Davenport-Hines > > >—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert >To: Ibogaine List >Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM
>Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse > > >Dear List, > >If >I
were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug >addiction it is this: > >Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they >see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to
>talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless >propaganda
which preaches that the addiction condition is a >reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the >sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to >mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this >state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and >it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some >level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process >of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard >enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a >luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.) >
>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >based >on
illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >straightforward human nature. Not rocket science. > >What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of >drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the >similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as >the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, >i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot >make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other
>experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to >perceive
what addicts have been through, and are going through, >based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time >to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. >Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views >are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the >drug addiction community nowhere fast. > >I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate >pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support >they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the >lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t >tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to >help me do as I say, not as I do. > >I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by >little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What >has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine >suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this >list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement >that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the >comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the >experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – >there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I >am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of >an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I >can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. >Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing. > >When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved. > >Lee > > > > >Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine >over a six year period.
>www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html >Free copies of Amazing Grace >available
here for members of the media >/ librarians etc:
>www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: > >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 5:44:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc –<

if drugs were legal, so many of those consequences, the resulting hell, would not exist for a user. I know what I’m talking about, please believe me. I do know what I’m talking about. I can assure you that if you took away the running the streets, the sneaking and coniving, the need to do anything to obtain a smidgen of the drug, it wouldn’t be always bad. It just wouldn’t be.

The key, the proof to this is so obvious: Otherwise, “they” would not be prescribing opiates for pain if all use was going to be bad, and having said that, as a chronic pain patient I do not have a “meager existance.” I’ve taken steps to make sure my existance is not meager by participating in my existance regardless of whether I need opiates to do it comfortably enough or not.
Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

(but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >
Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc —
Drug addiction can very well be compared to sexual abuse.  Both have suffered extremely although in different ways ie the drug user by abondoing his soul/familly/self etc the victim of sexual abuse in loosing faith in others/in his own worth etc.  However to know what the other person feels like you have to experience it your self.  that said it is only feasible tht a victim of sexual abuse cannot fathom the pain in a drug addict but both tread on the same path–the only solution and by no means simple is to look back and resolve it
Regards
matt

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:29:37 -0500 > >>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >>based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >>the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >>straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.< > >On the Streets, or on COPS? >On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some >horrific behavior or other? >On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television >propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)? >How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how >much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or >shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users >in the very worst light? >Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think >we’re shown such “criminal” figures: >—– > >http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm > >excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice? >by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the >Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”) > >snip- > >With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new >business and means of control that can be instituted without giving >up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs >industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White >House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug >Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the >fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the >situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when >discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for >such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement >involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” >on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse >Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide >devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of >addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now >explained. > >”DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference >in the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment >and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” >asserted the retired general. “They have created a company >consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most >exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise >of developing highly effective medical treatment options for >addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over >100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as >McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 >Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal >costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per >year.”[11] > >Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and >profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of >prohibitionist Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his >declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan >Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New >York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping >$1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of >crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable >companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech >on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals >to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in >crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and >raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is >around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said. > > “In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in >the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the >previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies >don’t usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and >embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of >everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything >shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a >warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s >War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as >fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United >States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by >prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of >druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today. > >snip- > >9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001 ><www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123> > >10. Ibid. > >11. McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000. > >12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics >of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70. >snip- >—– > >>Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual >>abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it >>is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to >>comprehend the experience of an addict?< > >I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on >anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree >entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime >or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or >have gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in >jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice >experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I >don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug >use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am >not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil >company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil >company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, >but I’m not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I >suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know. > >>When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >>outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >>(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >>will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.< > >As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against >anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from >them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my >years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as >you Lee. > > >Peace and love, >Preston > >”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is >often mistaken for madness” >Richard Davenport-Hines > > >—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert >To: Ibogaine List >Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM >Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse > > >Dear List, > >If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug >addiction it is this: > >Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they >see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to >talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless >propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a >reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the >sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to >mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this >state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and >it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some >level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process >of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard >enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a >luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.) > >Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >straightforward human nature. Not rocket science. > >What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of >drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the >similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as >the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, >i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot >make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other >experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to >perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, >based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time >to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. >Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views >are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the >drug addiction community nowhere fast. > >I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate >pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support >they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the >lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t >tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to >help me do as I say, not as I do. > >I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by >little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What >has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine >suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this >list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement >that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the >comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the >experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – >there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I >am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of >an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I >can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. >Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing. > >When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved. > >Lee > > > > >Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine >over a six year period. >www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html >Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media >/ librarians etc: >www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 5:18:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

(but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >
Wow i never heard that before….every junkie i know including the one i use to be was in hell and only digging deeper by the hour…the only relief comes when you ahve the dope in your hand and finally shoot up only to realize that you only prolonged your meager existence by a few lauzy hours before that demon starts to whine and plead for the next shot—-i dont see any fun or excitment in this –or other drugs such as rock/meth/blow etc —
Drug addiction can very well be compared to sexual abuse.  Both have suffered extremely although in different ways ie the drug user by abondoing his soul/familly/self etc the victim of sexual abuse in loosing faith in others/in his own worth etc.  However to know what the other person feels like you have to experience it your self.  that said it is only feasible tht a victim of sexual abuse cannot fathom the pain in a drug addict but both tread on the same path–the only solution and by no means simple is to look back and resolve it
Regards
matt

>From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:29:37 -0500 > >>Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >>based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >>the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >>straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.< > >On the Streets, or on COPS? >On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some >horrific behavior or other? >On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television >propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)? >How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how >much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or >shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users >in the very worst light? >Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think >we’re shown such “criminal” figures: >—– > >http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm > >excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice? >by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the >Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”) > >snip- > >With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new >business and means of control that can be instituted without giving >up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs >industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White >House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug >Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the >fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the >situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when >discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for >such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement >involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” >on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse >Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide >devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of >addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now >explained. > >”DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference >in the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment >and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” >asserted the retired general. “They have created a company >consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most >exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise >of developing highly effective medical treatment options for >addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over >100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as >McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 >Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal >costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per >year.”[11] > >Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and >profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of >prohibitionist Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his >declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan >Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New >York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping >$1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of >crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable >companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech >on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals >to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in >crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and >raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is >around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said. > > “In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in >the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the >previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies >don’t usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and >embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of >everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything >shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a >warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s >War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as >fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United >States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by >prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of >druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today. > >snip- > >9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001 ><www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123> > >10. Ibid. > >11. McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000. > >12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics >of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70. >snip- >—– > >>Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual >>abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it >>is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to >>comprehend the experience of an addict?< > >I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on >anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree >entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime >or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or >have gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in >jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice >experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I >don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug >use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use >certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to >bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no >negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, >to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am >not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil >company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil >company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, >but I’m not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I >suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know. > >>When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >>outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >>(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >>will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.< > >As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against >anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from >them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my >years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as >you Lee. > > >Peace and love, >Preston > >”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is >often mistaken for madness” >Richard Davenport-Hines > > >—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert >To: Ibogaine List >Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM >Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse > > >Dear List, > >If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug >addiction it is this: > >Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they >see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to >talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless >propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a >reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the >sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to >mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this >state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and >it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some >level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process >of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard >enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a >luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.) > >Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction >based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and >the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its >straightforward human nature. Not rocket science. > >What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of >drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the >similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as >the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, >i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot >make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other >experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to >perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, >based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time >to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. >Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views >are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the >drug addiction community nowhere fast. > >I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate >pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support >they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the >lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t >tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to >help me do as I say, not as I do. > >I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by >little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What >has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine >suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this >list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement >that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the >comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the >experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – >there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I >am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of >an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I >can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. >Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing. > >When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look >outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination >(including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there >will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved. > >Lee > > > > >Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine >over a six year period. >www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html >Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media >/ librarians etc: >www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [OT] question for new yorkers…
Date: February 18, 2005 at 4:28:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

having been living in Paris in 1984 when Christo wrapped the Pont Neuf, I was very skeptical when I first heard about it, but when I saw the finished product, I was enrapt, if you’ll excuse the pun.
I haven’t yet seen it, but I want to. I think it’s probably really cool in person, 23 miles of these things all over Central Park, in February? That’s gotta look pretty cool Jon.
Whether it’s “art” or not? Hmmm.
;-0))

(Plus, the artists paid for it themselves, not we the taxpayers- imagine that. and I myself liked many of their other projects too, like wrapping the islands off Florida, that one was neat too, in my own opinion.)

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] [OT] question for new yorkers…

ok, so i know a lot of you out there are from nyc, and i wanted to get yer
opinion on something before i get there in a couple days…

i wanna know what you think of that gates of ny thing in central park…

is it art, or is it stupid?

i’m curious what the natives think.

without having yet seen it, i have to say i’m leaning towards the latter…

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 4:00:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Best to you and may it go well for you and all involved.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer

Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg

— “m.finman” wrote:
Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any
who will. Someone near and very dear to me is
currently in session. I feel collective prayer is
like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.

Martee

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:57:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But you’re not talking about this so much, it seems,
you’re saying that no one else can speak for you so I can’t use the word
“You” in communications. Is this it?<

No Nick, what I’m saying is that YOU cannot speak for anyone but YOU really, in terms of what YOU feel and how YOU think- and that it’s something I try to keep in mind when I myself am speaking and writing (which is why I constantly add thinks like, “as I myself,” and “I think” and such things).

that you have to be
responsible for your belief systems, that you are not involved in
self-sabotage. To communicate this I need to use the word “You.”<

I’m just not convinced this is true Nick- it may be for you, and it may even be true for me, but I can’t know it’s true for everyone- but I just realized this is getting a bit silly and I’m starting to get really nit-picky.

Specifically, in this situation, YOU are putting out, it seems to me, that
the forces arrayed against addicts are so powerful, especially the legal
position of heroin, that it makes it effectively impossible for them to take
a useful stance THEMSELVES against the prejudice they experience from
government and society. And that, presumably, they thus have to wait for
OTHERS to improve the position for them. Essentially, that nothing can
change until non-addicts do something.<

WHAT? LOL, that’s so entirely opposite of what I preach and practice I can’t even believe you just wrote this Nick- my entire being these days is geared to towards illustrating that people who have been known to take drugs, like me, are not automatically to be considered subhuman or incapable of being loved or holding jobs and respectable positions in society and positions in their families, etc. I take what is basically legal heroin for my extremely serious physical pain Nick, and I sit here and work for hours upon hours every day, and go out and meet with friends and associates, I carry on intelligent and not-so-intelligent conversations and debates, I eat and sleep and make love and have a healthy relationship. What in the world do you think I’m doing with DrugWar.com and all my other writings Nick? Letting someone else write them for me?

What I am pointing out is that adopting this victim position is not
conducive to getting anything meaningful done. There are problems, yes; it
is difficult, yes; but the issues are most definitely NOT insurmountable, in
my opinion.<

Who is adopting a victim position? Could you point out where anyone did that please?
To reiterate quickly, because this is the “ibogaine at mindvox” list, I’ve taken ibogaine twice now, and got a lot out of it. I’d like to take it again, in the not-so-distant future. I may even want to again at some point in time in the future too. I think it is an extremely useful and beneficial tool to use in detoxing people, and for giving people insights about themselves and the universe around them that they might not obtain without taking it, or at least, might not think of without taking it. I would have it available upon request for those who desire to use it for whatever their reason- within some sensible limitations derived from strictly health reasons. Having put myself through hell more than once because I was unable to quit abusing myself by abusing hard drugs I am one hundred percent suportive of ibogaine being legalized, as it sure did make unspringing the most interesting learning experience I could have ever imagined- and I’da still fallen short had I tried to imagine it, and believe me, I did try beforehand, a lot more than once. But I am also entirely unable to find it in myself to force anyone to take ibogaine or any other “treatment” for drug “addiction” as I feel that in my case, nothing is effective without the desire for change, nor has coerced anything ever done anything for me that was beneficial at all, ever (weeeellllll, there are ALWAYS exceptions, as in “school” which sure did give me a lot of food for thought over the years, and there were many, many times I did not want to go, sooo…I’m going to simply stop here).
I think this is a great example of the fact that there are not simple answers in this or any area.
We are still so early in the whole “drugs causes evil and addiction” phase of our society, that one hundred years of a “war” is not nearly enough time to really learn many answers about what drives people to behave in addictive fashion, especially since there have been so very many lies and so much misinformation spread about drugs and users in the same time. I wish I knew why I felt so much better when using this or that drug Nick. I wish I knew why I react the way I do when others react differently. I wish I knew one hundred percent whether I have a disease or simply a brain imbalance or an immaturity or what (and this is completely beyond the whole pain thing- in this case, I do have such pain that when the substitute doctor sitting in for my own doc yesterday told me she’d hesitate to put me on opiates because she feels docs “create addicts” I wanted to laugh out loud and ask her- “so you’d rather I stretch and excercise and bite the bullet deal with the pain without opiates because you don’t want me addicted to the one thing that gives me relief and allows me to work all day every day? Get REAL!” But I didn’t). Because I do have trouble keeping my use down- it’s a daily struggle to not give in to the “I want MORE” feelings- but I do struggle with it and it’s builds character in me Nick, makes me stronger for it.
Ok I blah, blah blah here. I gotta do some real work now, geez.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 18 February 2005 04:57
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did
actually pick
up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program,
to try and
stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize
things. Sitting
in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the
others would
get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our
feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in
acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be
inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I,
I, not You.
I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every
single time I
read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME,
and what
is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the
person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually
realize it or
not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try
to take the
“but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you
haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against
YOU? What
do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn
about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about
ME and how
I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a
result of what
YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.

Hey Preston,

For sure, you’re sitting in a circle with a bunch of guys and girls and some
of them are reluctant of using the word “I” because it’s easier for them to
discuss their feelings more in the 3rd person. When they start to
personalize they start to feel and therapists like to make you do this, it’s
part of their job. But you’re not talking about this so much, it seems,
you’re saying that no one else can speak for you so I can’t use the word
“You” in communications. Is this it?

So….using this, let me rephrase

What pro-addiction forces want is for me to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against me
are too much to be overwhelmed. If I believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. I always have a choice. If I don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump my belief systems. I have the choice what I
believe.”

Well, that’s also fine with me. But what I’m trying to communicate is what I
believe to be a General truth to this situation – that you have to be
responsible for your belief systems, that you are not involved in
self-sabotage. To communicate this I need to use the word “You.”

Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices
Nick-

OK, I would be interested to hear what you have in terms of choices, if you
would like to tell me.

what do
YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Yes, I do. I align my beliefs with what I want. If I want something, I
recognize that it’s not helpful to believe that I can’t get it.
Specifically, in this situation, YOU are putting out, it seems to me, that
the forces arrayed against addicts are so powerful, especially the legal
position of heroin, that it makes it effectively impossible for them to take
a useful stance THEMSELVES against the prejudice they experience from
government and society. And that, presumably, they thus have to wait for
OTHERS to improve the position for them. Essentially, that nothing can
change until non-addicts do something.

What I am pointing out is that adopting this victim position is not
conducive to getting anything meaningful done. There are problems, yes; it
is difficult, yes; but the issues are most definitely NOT insurmountable, in
my opinion.

So, is this OK? I am using the word YOU because I want to address these
comments to you.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:31:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.<

LOL, well, that’s a good point Allison and well taken.

Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:24 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

I can’t agree with your statement about needing a form of sedation to be functional or being overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis.  I also don’t think there is any mystery involved with addicts other than all the usual life questions or the recovery solution.    Tis amazing what we can learn about drugs, how to get them, adapt them, use them even if we don’t want to learn other things.  Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.   Allison

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:29:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.<

On the Streets, or on COPS?
On the streets or in articles that accuse drug users of some horrific behavior or other?
On the streets or in books/magazines/radio/films/television propaganda (as you allude to in your first paragraph Lee)?
How much drug crime do I myself really encounter personally, how much do I see face to face, and how much is described to me, or shown to me by others in whose interest it is to portray drug users in the very worst light?
Here’s an example of the “drug crime” we’re “shown” and why I think we’re shown such “criminal” figures:
—–

http://www.drugwar.com/ptreatjail.shtm

excerpted from Treatment or Jail- is this Really a Choice?
by Preston Peet (published in “Everything You Know is Wrong- the Disinformation Guide to Secrets and Lies”)

snip-

With the new push for drug treatment, there comes a lucrative new business and means of control that can be instituted without giving up the profits currently pulled in by the War on Some Drugs industries. When announcing his resignation as head of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), then-US Drug Czar Gen. Barry McCaffrey bemoaned the use of war terminology in the fight against drug use, saying that perhaps when discussing the situation in the Andes, “war” is an apt term, but not when discussing efforts in US cities. This might seem an odd stance for such a stalwart proponent of US military and law enforcement involvement in waging the War on Some Drugs, but McCaffrey “agreed” on July 24, 2001, to join the board of directors at DrugAbuse Sciences Inc., “the world’s first pharmaceutical company worldwide devoted solely to developing medications for the treatment of addiction.”[9] McCaffrey’s newfound love of treatment is now explained.

“DrugAbuse Sciences has the potential to make a historic difference in the health of Americans through its understanding of treatment and its broad portfolio of new medications under development,” asserted the retired general. “They have created a company consisting of the leading medical researchers, clinicians and most exciting new product candidates. This combination offers the promise of developing highly effective medical treatment options for addictions. Addiction is a disease that costs our country over 100,000 lives and over $250 billion per year.”[10] Which is odd, as McCaffrey said only the year before, in July 2000: “Each year 52,000 Americans die from drug-related causes. The additional societal costs of drug use to the nation total over $110 billion per year.”[11]

Spouting spurious numbers to promote and justify repressive (and profitable) anti-drug policies has been a favorite ploy of prohibitionist Drug Warriors since President Nixon first uttered his declaration of a War on Drugs in 1968. As related by author Dan Baum, by 1972, “The conservative Hudson Institute estimated that New York City’s 250,000 heroin addicts were responsible for a whopping $1.7 billion in crime, which was well more than the total amount of crime in the NATION. ‘Narcotics addiction and crime are inseparable companions,’ said presidential candidate George McGovern in a speech on the Senate floor. ‘In 98 percent of the cases [the junkie] steals to pay the pusher…that translates into about $4.4 billion in crime.’ Senator Charles Percy of Illinois saw McGovern’s bid and raised him. ‘The total cost of drug-related crime in the US today is around $10 billion to $15 billion,’ he said.

“In fact, only $1.28 billion worth of property was stolen in the US in 1972, (the figure had actually fallen slightly from the previous year). That includes everything except cars, which junkies don’t usually steal because they can’t easily fence them, and embezzlement, which isn’t a junkie crime. The combined value of everything swiped in burglaries, robberies, and muggings, everything shoplifted, filched off the back of a truck, or boosted from a warehouse was $1.28 billion. Yet during the heroin panic of Nixon’s War on Drugs, junkies would be blamed for stealing as much as fifteen times the value of everything stolen in the United States.”[12] As the original fallacious numbers bandied about by prohibitionists convinced the nation to support mass-jailing of druggies, so too do they steer us toward coerced treatment today.

snip-

9. DrugAbuse Sciences, Inc. Press release. 24 July 2001 <www.drugabusesciences.com/Articles.asp?entry=123>

10. Ibid.

11. McCaffrey, Barry. Letter to Los Angeles Times 14 July 2000.

12. Baum, Dan. Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics of Failure. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1996: 69-70.
snip-
—–

Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgment that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict?<

I feel such a contrary guy lately- and I apologize for grating on anyone’s nerves but I’m feeling outspoken- but I’m not sure I agree entirely here either Lee. I can sympathize with victims of any crime or assault, but can’t really “know” what they’re going through or have gone through without experiencing it. Having been assaulted in jail (and having gone through a couple of other not-so-nice experiences of a sexual nature over time), I can honestly say I don’t see much similarity whatsoever between sexual abuse and drug use. So while yes, they can both be sucky as heck (but drug use certainly is NOT always sucky- as a matter of fact I’d be willing to bet TONS of money that most drug use is fun with little to no negative consequences at all), they are different as day and night, to me- in most ways. The ONLY way I relate them myself is that I am not quite so open about having been sexually assaulted in most civil company, nor would I discuss my shooting up drugs days in most civil company either. Yes, both are descriminated against in many ways, but I’m not entirely sure it’s the same sort of things. Similar I suppose, but not the same. In my mind, the only one I really know.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.<

As I’m often fond of saying, I myself do not descriminate against anyone for NOT taking drugs, so I expect the same consideration from them for any drug use or even abuse I may have ever engaged in in my years. But I am not sure I see the equation quite as clearly here as you Lee.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Dear List,

If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug addiction it is this:

Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.)

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.

What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the drug addiction community nowhere fast.

I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to help me do as I say, not as I do.

I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – there are others, victims of war,…). If you need proof of what I am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice.. Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 18, 2005 at 2:35:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Donna,

That’s fine,  take it easy until then and enjoy your family gathering.

Love,

Sara

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2005 19:44
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe

Hi Sara

I am not going to be able to come over to Holland this weekend, I was planning to come today, but I am going on a family holiday tomorrow and did not get everything done, I hope you are well and I look forward to meeting you soon.

Love Donnaxx

From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: [Ibogaine] [OT] question for new yorkers…
Date: February 18, 2005 at 2:04:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ok, so i know a lot of you out there are from nyc, and i wanted to get yer
opinion on something before i get there in a couple days…

i wanna know what you think of that gates of ny thing in central park…

is it art, or is it stupid?

i’m curious what the natives think.

without having yet seen it, i have to say i’m leaning towards the latter…

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From: <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Provider’s Charter- huzzah
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:55:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee and the list:

The provider’s charter is a great idea,and I would love to see what you
come up with. I have had problems getting to trust and honesty with my
opiate addicted clients. And tweakers are usually so mentally shredded
that the phrase “fully informed” becomes black humor. PCP victims can be
irretrievably brain damaged from their “free will” choices only days or
hours before. The dread of dope sickness and unassisted withdrawal makes
these wonderful people say whatever they think I would like to hear, and
save stashes nearby to re-medicate, “just in case”.

The downside of a fraudulent agreement for the provider here in the
States, or anywhere with a drug cartel owned judicial system, is way too
heavy to be worth the low income and long hours of attention. Charters,
Contracts, Rights, and other terms of conscious agreement between adults
imply a two way permissive verbal contract. At what point is any agreement
void due to one party to it being out of their heads in fear and pain?
Coercion, destraint, confession thru torture,etc., these are legal
concepts long established as invalidating contracts.

It’s great to be in favor of the user’s rights and respect their free
will, but we are discussing physical medicinal effects that push the
identity and will all over the map at different points in the journey.
What’s “free” and whose “will” is involved for this experience and
agreement to facilitate it? Things are a little different here than just
choosing a bistro menu item for the provider to provide.

Let’s see how you frame the charter, Lee. And thank you for your eloquence
and insight adding to these discussions, thus far.

Dr. Tom

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:44:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sara

I am not going to be able to come over to Holland this weekend, I was planning to come today, but I am going on a family holiday tomorrow and did not get everything done, I hope you are well and I look forward to meeting you soon.

Love Donnaxx

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:35:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To the topic of ibogaine,  I just was thinking about something
triggered in my mind by Cohen’s query re the magickal aura ascribed to
the plant.  That its process is akin to an exorcism.  Whatever that
means.

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:32:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee
Im sending calm soothing thoughts and praying for your friend, wish her love and light

love donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:24:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi allison

Thanks for that, I still want to do the ibo but doing this with the meth might be an option for me untill i can arrange a session with an experienced provider.

thanks once again for the advice love donna

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:03:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You Wrote :
“”todays satanists are people who have deep psycological problems that dont really have to do with the devil—that doesnt mean there are people who are possesd by evil forces but in genearal its all rebeliion etc””

#At least this is what they believe.  LOL
So satanists are just people with psycological problems ?? I wish it will be that easy.
God Bless
Francis

>From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:07:06 -0800 (PST) > >As far as I understand it, the occult and Satanism are >separate, distinct things. “Occult” means ‘hidden >knowledge’, not ‘devil worship’; Satanism is a >religion which chooses to deify Lucifer. > >That being said, I agree with the other poster who >said that if you deal with dark energies (either >external or internal, and quite possibly the same) >eventually you pay the piper… > >Julie > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:44:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Exactly its unreal you can go up as much as u want –i know a person who only used tylenol 3 and percocet and now hes on 220 mg —can u belive it —-and he started to go up because he was getting high and the ignorant doctor just kept going up and up….unreal
Regards
matt

>From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:58:01 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi Matt,. I think thats the general idea with Methadone. It goes on and on >like the never ending story. I was talking about doing over a few days to >ease withdrawals like Martee was talking about. Not the way the system >works which is to stick you on the program, hope you shut & cause no trouble >and then forget about you or if you do winge give you another few mgs. >Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Saturday, 19 February 2005 3:57:41 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >I was on methadone for a few years..jumping from a 100mg to 20 back to 50 >etc….Although i heard poistive reports of methadone patients i personaly >havent met any one who tapered themselves from it withou using other poisons > Without eboga i would never quit because the lowest i got was 5mg but that >was pure hell so i started using benzos to sleep and eventually relapsed to >heroin/opiates then back on meth and i repeated that process a thousand >times it seems…It really irrates me when meth doctors dont explain that >this process can and usully will last a lifetime >Regards >Matt > > > > > > > > >From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: >ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:41:40 >+1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi donna. I too used Methadone like >Martee talked about. I did 30-35mgs >first and then dropped over 3 days >which didn’t bother the system much but >found that the last few mgs were >the hardest and the longer you hang on to >the methadone the harder it is to >break. I can’t decided if the last bit >was a mental crutch or physical or a >bit of both. Perhaps Martee can >provide that info. It does help cleaning up >but doesn’t solve the problem >of staying clean which apparently ibogaine >can provide. At least it might >give you some space to think of alternatives >and get your head around >cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling >like shit which is what I >got used to doing. Good luck and best wishes. >Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com > >Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com > >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >Hi >Martee > >I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I >would >have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off >the >gear!!!!. I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that >way, >i’ll keep you posted > >love donna > > > > >Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now >and get the first two months FREE* >

Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:40:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Julie
Wow are you serious that long in your system eh–well that tells us everything…i would agree that heroin maintaince would be better although it still doesnt solve anyting…
Regards
Matt

>From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:13:05 -0800 (PST) > >Matthew, > >What you say is absolutely true- I also do not know >one single person who managed to kick methadone >without chipping either heroin or pills. detoxing >from methadone is simply too hard.. > >BTW, I used morphine sulphate for two weeks prior to >my second Ibo session, in an attempt to make the whole >process somewhat easier. Three weeks after my Ibo, >and 5 after my last methadone drink, my urinalysis >STIll tested positive for methadone! > >Heroin maintenance seems like such a better solution, >in my humble opinion… > >Julie > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:40:11 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Lee for your very good E-Mail.

You’ve made a very good point and I agree with all of it.
I was beated by my father almost on a daily base. When I said beated, I mean too.. knock out.I was living in his garden with the dog and feed in the same way .. and his   went on for a year. One day, I prepared myself to fight back and just try to  kill the son of  a bich , infortunately he was stronger than me 🙁

To make a long story short, the man was evil or very sick.I don’t know and I am not even realy interested in knowing. Does ‘ nt bother me. This is karma. This was my karma too.I survive is treatment, and when I finaly manage to escape I survive one year in madagascar bush  ( We where  living there )

” Here and everywhere , they said what dosent kill you make you stronger. ” I am a true believer in this.He make me very strong and I forgive him.
Now he is dead ( he died in one of his terrible rage ) and I am alive.

If you have to make a sword you have to put the metal throught fire, then you have do  the hardening process throught beating.
Then come the cold forging  :the ridge and the edge line are made straight before finishing the body of the sword.( that was my part ) Then come the curving ( the change I had to make ) Then come the polishing , that the final touch 🙂

Pain is pain no matter who own it. It what you do with pain that matter.
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:29 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse

Dear List,

If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug addiction it is this:

Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.)

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.

What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the drug addiction community nowhere fast.

I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to help me do as I say, not as I do.

I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – there are others, victims of war,…..). If you need proof of what I am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice…. Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:38:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Right Julie :}  And another thing those kids who say they worship the devil have no idea about deep esoteric knowledge ….they think that by dressing in black wearing upsidedown pentagrams and listening to black/death metal makes them satanists —it just makes them ignorant—-cause even though i belive that christianity is full of deceit and prejuduicehowver the symbol of the cross symbolises goodness love among other egyptian symbolic meanings but when u turn it upside down you are reaversing the whole energy so whats the point…..todays satanists are people who have deep psycological problems that dont really have to do with the devil—that doesnt mean there are people who are possesd by evil forces but in genearal its all rebeliion etc
Regards
matt

>From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:07:06 -0800 (PST) > >As far as I understand it, the occult and Satanism are >separate, distinct things. “Occult” means ‘hidden >knowledge’, not ‘devil worship’; Satanism is a >religion which chooses to deify Lucifer. > >That being said, I agree with the other poster who >said that if you deal with dark energies (either >external or internal, and quite possibly the same) >eventually you pay the piper… > >Julie > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:27:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee and Shelly,

Prayers for both you and yours and a vast, luminescent
purple energy field pulsating out from Toronto….

Julie

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:13:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matthew,

What you say is absolutely true- I also do not know
one single person who managed to kick methadone
without chipping either heroin or pills.   detoxing
from methadone is simply too hard..

BTW, I used morphine sulphate for two weeks prior to
my second Ibo session, in an attempt to make the whole
process somewhat easier.  Three weeks after my Ibo,
and 5 after my last methadone drink, my urinalysis
STIll tested positive for methadone!

Heroin maintenance seems like such a better solution,
in my humble opinion…

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 11:07:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As far as I understand it, the occult and Satanism are
separate, distinct things.  “Occult” means ‘hidden
knowledge’, not ‘devil worship’; Satanism is a
religion which chooses to deify Lucifer.

That being said, I agree with the other poster who
said that if you deal with dark energies (either
external or internal, and quite possibly the same)
eventually you pay the piper…

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:58:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt,.  I think thats the general idea with Methadone.  It goes on and on like the never ending story.  I was talking about doing over a few days to ease withdrawals like Martee was talking about.  Not the way the system works which is to stick you on the program, hope you shut & cause no trouble and then forget about you or if you do winge give you another few mgs.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Saturday, 19 February 2005 3:57:41 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

I was on methadone for a few years..jumping from a 100mg to 20 back to 50 etc….Although i heard poistive reports of methadone patients i personaly havent met any one who tapered themselves from it withou using other poisons.  Without eboga i would never quit because the lowest i got was 5mg but that was pure hell so i started using benzos to sleep and eventually relapsed to heroin/opiates then back on meth and i repeated that process a thousand times it seems…It really irrates me when meth doctors dont explain that this process can and usully will last a lifetime
Regards
Matt

>From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:41:40 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi donna. I too used Methadone like Martee talked about. I did 30-35mgs >first and then dropped over 3 days which didn’t bother the system much but >found that the last few mgs were the hardest and the longer you hang on to >the methadone the harder it is to break. I can’t decided if the last bit >was a mental crutch or physical or a bit of both. Perhaps Martee can >provide that info. It does help cleaning up but doesn’t solve the problem >of staying clean which apparently ibogaine can provide. At least it might >give you some space to think of alternatives and get your head around >cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling like shit which is what I >got used to doing. Good luck and best wishes. Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >Hi Martee > >I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would >have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the >gear!!!!. I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, >i’ll keep you posted > >love donna >

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Power of Love/just wanted to share
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:53:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee,

That was really lovely…thanks for sharing it!

Julie

__________________________________
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:31:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis
The reason i wrote that people who choose to play with fire will get burned is that u can use positive and negative energy to find your path…The occult presents you with a a wide path…it is up to you how u choose to use it….All im saying is you cannot lump esoteric arts into dangerous practises becasue there are people who use the hidden way to find happiness and love through love and light and goodness….ie mme blavatsky,dion  fortune
Respect
Matt

>From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:16:53 -0500 > >Hi Matt > >*In the article they wrote : > >”All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” > >*Why do you wrote ? : > >If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense > > > >God Bless >Francis > > —– Original Message —– > From: matthew zielinski > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:49 AM > Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course > > > When will people recognize that the occult does not signify evil! If anyone does a simple research on the occult they will undertand that its just another path to enlightment. If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense > > Regards > > matt > > > > > > > > > >From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:06:22 -0500 > >I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel >all right now…. > >The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL > ——————————————————————— >Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP) >Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes >By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer > > (02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) — > > In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly >stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a >lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism. > > Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a >Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests >and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class >is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by >exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist. > > The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up >misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do >not carry out. > > “An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was >told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari, >secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group, >co-sponsor of the class. > > Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of >driving the devil from someone’s body. > > Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are >merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on >people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get >carried away and invent mystical gestures. > > “Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an >exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and >prayer. > > In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades >of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right. >Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to >psychological problems. > > “All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” >Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars. > > The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed >to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual >killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of >Satan.” > > One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may >have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification >of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year >and buried alive. > > Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people >who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely >monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the >Internet. > > “It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness >and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of >Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the >devil’s lure to young people. > > The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a >conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher >Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request, >senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics. > > “In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even >theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'” > > The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an >Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories. > > Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the >1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and >demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when >the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out >devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in >deciding who should be exorcised. > > The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a >reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that >the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of >homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.” > > A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his >memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian >woman who was screaming and writhing. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report. > > ———————————————————————- >Copyright 2005 AP > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > > > > >—————————————————————————— > Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:28:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sarah I am with you !!
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

What if they are mass murderers? Are you still gone watch and do nothing?
Not saying anything is like hiding your had in the sand.
Saying you don’t like it is your right. I don’t think you should feel
That you need to apologize.
S.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2005 3:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:22:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We will pray, here.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer

All the best—may the loving energy of eboga guide you and heal you —-peace and love :}
Best Regards
Matt

>From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:37:10 -0800 (PST) > >Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell > >knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg > > >— “m.finman” wrote: > > Kindly, > > Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any > > who will. Someone near and very dear to me is > > currently in session. I feel collective prayer is > > like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light. > > > > Martee > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ >ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] >\]=———————————————————————=[/ >

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:16:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt

*In the article they wrote :

“All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,”

*Why do you wrote ? :

If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense

God Bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course

When will people recognize that the occult does not signify evil!  If anyone does a simple research on the occult they will undertand that its just another path to enlightment.  If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense
Regards
matt

>From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:06:22 -0500 > >I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel >all right now…. > >The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL > ——————————————————————— >Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP) >Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes >By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer > > (02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) — > > In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly >stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a >lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism. > > Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a >Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests >and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class >is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by >exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist. > > The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up >misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do >not carry out. > > “An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was >told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari, >secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group, >co-sponsor of the class. > > Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of >driving the devil from someone’s body. > > Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are >merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on >people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get >carried away and invent mystical gestures. > > “Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an >exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and >prayer. > > In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades >of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right. >Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to >psychological problems. > > “All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” >Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars. > > The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed >to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual >killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of >Satan.” > > One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may >have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification >of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year >and buried alive. > > Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people >who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely >monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the >Internet. > > “It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness >and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of >Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the >devil’s lure to young people. > > The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a >conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher >Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request, >senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics. > > “In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even >theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'” > > The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an >Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories. > > Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the >1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and >demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when >the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out >devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in >deciding who should be exorcised. > > The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a >reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that >the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of >homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.” > > A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his >memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian >woman who was screaming and writhing. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report. > > ———————————————————————- >Copyright 2005 AP > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 18, 2005 at 10:10:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jason, your the MAN. That sounds like the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. Esp. the step about the deranged post. Can I get an AMEN?        Randy

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:56:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was on methadone for a few years..jumping from a 100mg to 20 back to 50 etc….Although i heard poistive reports of methadone patients i personaly havent met any one who tapered themselves from it withou using other poisons.  Without eboga i would never quit because the lowest i got was 5mg but that was pure hell so i started using benzos to sleep and eventually relapsed to heroin/opiates then back on meth and i repeated that process a thousand times it seems…It really irrates me when meth doctors dont explain that this process can and usully will last a lifetime
Regards
Matt

>From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:41:40 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time) > >Hi donna. I too used Methadone like Martee talked about. I did 30-35mgs >first and then dropped over 3 days which didn’t bother the system much but >found that the last few mgs were the hardest and the longer you hang on to >the methadone the harder it is to break. I can’t decided if the last bit >was a mental crutch or physical or a bit of both. Perhaps Martee can >provide that info. It does help cleaning up but doesn’t solve the problem >of staying clean which apparently ibogaine can provide. At least it might >give you some space to think of alternatives and get your head around >cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling like shit which is what I >got used to doing. Good luck and best wishes. Allison > >——-Original Message——- > >From: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? > >Hi Martee > >I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would >have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the >gear!!!!. I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, >i’ll keep you posted > >love donna >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:49:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When will people recognize that the occult does not signify evil!  If anyone does a simple research on the occult they will undertand that its just another path to enlightment.  If people choose to work with evil forces they pay sooner or latter–what goes around comes around—-but lumping the occult into one diabolical act is pure nonsense
Regards
matt

>From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:06:22 -0500 > >I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel >all right now…. > >The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL > ——————————————————————— >Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP) >Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes >By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer > > (02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) — > > In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly >stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a >lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism. > > Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a >Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests >and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class >is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by >exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist. > > The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up >misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do >not carry out. > > “An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was >told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari, >secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group, >co-sponsor of the class. > > Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of >driving the devil from someone’s body. > > Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are >merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on >people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get >carried away and invent mystical gestures. > > “Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an >exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and >prayer. > > In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades >of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right. >Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to >psychological problems. > > “All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,” >Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars. > > The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed >to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual >killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of >Satan.” > > One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may >have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification >of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year >and buried alive. > > Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people >who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely >monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the >Internet. > > “It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness >and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of >Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the >devil’s lure to young people. > > The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a >conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher >Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request, >senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics. > > “In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even >theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'” > > The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an >Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories. > > Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the >1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and >demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when >the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out >devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in >deciding who should be exorcised. > > The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a >reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that >the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of >homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.” > > A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his >memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian >woman who was screaming and writhing. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report. > > ———————————————————————- >Copyright 2005 AP > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > \]=———————————————————————=[/ > >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:41:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All the best—may the loving energy of eboga guide you and heal you —-peace and love :}
Best Regards
Matt

>From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:37:10 -0800 (PST) > >Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell > >knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg > > >— “m.finman” wrote: > > Kindly, > > Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any > > who will. Someone near and very dear to me is > > currently in session. I feel collective prayer is > > like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light. > > > > Martee > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ >ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] >\]=———————————————————————=[/ >

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 9:11:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee
All the best to your acquantiance….I hope eboga will heal and enlighten him/her in every way…all the best….one love:}
Best Regards
matt

>From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com> >Subject: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:37:20 -0500 > >Kindly, > Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any who will. Someone near and very dear to me is currently in session. I feel collective prayer is like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light. > Martee

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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:55:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ta for the reply Nick.  Perhaps I’m thinking in a narrow way but I really have problems accepting that most people don’t know what heroin is especially people addicted to it.  Even if your interested in nothing else most users make it their business to know what is in what pharmacy drugs, pills, what you can break down etc. etc.  Anything to work that high.   Plus there is so much information out there these days about heroin and drugs (even if a lot is mis-information) how could people not know.   Allison

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [Ibogaine] free chooice- not for under 18 years old.
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:42:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [Ibogaine] just not look under 18 (OT)
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:38:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:37:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Re: sending a prayer.I will be in session tomorrow,thats saturday around noon est, please send good vibes my way,love shell

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg

— “m.finman” wrote:
> Kindly,
> Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any
> who will. Someone near and very dear to me is
> currently in session. I feel collective prayer is
> like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.
>
> Martee
>

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/bmp name=insideheart.bmp

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:20:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey there,

It’s not temazepam but this is what I try to do…
it works sometimes, sometimes not.

3 hours before bedtime Daily Kava and/or melaToeNIN

step 0.1/eXerrrSize (Long walk[with pet if possible],
dunce,    yoga or whatever)

step 0.2/when back from Walk, warm Shower, wash with
Good Soap, ‘let go’ when rinsing.  If problem with
that, visualize a good size Cup of Pure Relaxing
Liquid above head, when See it good, start rinsing
while visualizing the Pure Relaxing Liquid pouring
starting at the crown of “hEEd” (look at the size of
the melon..) down neck back, chest etc…

step 0.3/eat and drink good food and drink with some
more kava

step 0.4/grab 3 books, make bed with clean sheets,
lay down and start reading.  If 60-90min pass and
still awake, post an enlightened post here, followed
by a deranged one.  Open word doc and start writing
life story, or type random text from favorite books,
either way.

If still awake, Rinse then Repeat.

I hope things are well for you.  The severity of
the insomnia post ibo seems to lessen in a few days I
think.

Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 8:05:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Allison Senepart [mailto:paradisepaint@call south.net.nz]
Sent: 18 February 2005 11:24
To: ibogaine
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

I can’t agree with your statement about needing a form of sedation to be functional or being overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis.  I also don’t think there is any mystery involved with addicts other than all the usual life questions or the recovery solution.    Tis amazing what we can learn about drugs, how to get them, adapt them, use them even if we don’t want to learn other things.  Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.   Allison

Allison,

A lot of people in the UK have genuinely no idea what heroin actually is. To them it’s simply a word that conjures up all sorts of images of vast evil that could descend on themselves or their kids at any moment and their lives would just be interminably fucked up. Really. Some addicts too, in my experience. They don’t realize it’s just an analgesic, a painkiller.

Nick
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:58:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:47
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings
on a daily
basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be
functional. My
thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its
action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that
their drug
is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and
fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues
with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.<

Hey, what do you know, I somewhat agree with you here Nick!
;-)))

Hey Preston,

We did it! We found something we agree on! Yeah, I love you, it’s great man.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 7:56:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 18 February 2005 04:57
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did
actually pick
up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program,
to try and
stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize
things. Sitting
in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the
others would
get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our
feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in
acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be
inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I,
I, not You.
I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every
single time I
read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME,
and what
is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the
person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually
realize it or
not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try
to take the
“but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you
haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against
YOU? What
do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn
about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about
ME and how
I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a
result of what
YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.

Hey Preston,

For sure, you’re sitting in a circle with a bunch of guys and girls and some
of them are reluctant of using the word “I” because it’s easier for them to
discuss their feelings more in the 3rd person. When they start to
personalize they start to feel and therapists like to make you do this, it’s
part of their job. But you’re not talking about this so much, it seems,
you’re saying that no one else can speak for you so I can’t use the word
“You” in communications. Is this it?

So….using this, let me rephrase

What pro-addiction forces want is for me to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against me
are too much to be overwhelmed. If I believe that then it’s
pretty hard to
move on anything. I always have a choice. If I don’t believe
that, take
the choice to dump my belief systems. I have the choice what I
believe.”

Well, that’s also fine with me. But what I’m trying to communicate is what I
believe to be a General truth to this situation – that you have to be
responsible for your belief systems, that you are not involved in
self-sabotage. To communicate this I need to use the word “You.”

Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices
Nick-

OK, I would be interested to hear what you have in terms of choices, if you
would like to tell me.

what do
YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Yes, I do. I align my beliefs with what I want. If I want something, I
recognize that it’s not helpful to believe that I can’t get it.
Specifically, in this situation, YOU are putting out, it seems to me, that
the forces arrayed against addicts are so powerful, especially the legal
position of heroin, that it makes it effectively impossible for them to take
a useful stance THEMSELVES against the prejudice they experience from
government and society. And that, presumably, they thus have to wait for
OTHERS to improve the position for them. Essentially, that nothing can
change until non-addicts do something.

What I am pointing out is that adopting this victim position is not
conducive to getting anything meaningful done. There are problems, yes; it
is difficult, yes; but the issues are most definitely NOT insurmountable, in
my opinion.

So, is this OK? I am using the word YOU because I want to address these
comments to you.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston

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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:55:19 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sleep patterns.  What are they.  I can’t remember having any sort of normal sleep pattern since I was about 13.  Used to swim and do sports as a teenager & had trouble sleeping, got older worked night shifts through high school to make money and enjoyed working nights.  Did bar work, catering and that suited me fine but not such a good routine when you have children and a home.  When my daughter was young I used to do all my housework at night cuz thats what worked for me.  Poor kid probably thought the vacuum cleaner was something that happened after dark.  I just figured I was a night owl but then I have never seemed to slot into the so called appropriate slots.  Part of the personality and using drugs is all about pushing the boundries and so called rules and regulations (I hate being told what to do)   but it can be hard to turn back once you cross lines.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 11:00:25 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Matt, after Ibo my Doc gave me some kind of anti depressant that really helped. I can’t remember what it was so I’ll call him Friday and find out. It wasn’t Elavil. I’ve been meaning to call him and thank him for helping me anyway. 5 months later I still sleep sporadically. I always did though. I’ve never had “normal” sleep patterns and I think that is true with a lot of us. It is good to see more people using Ibogaine.         Randy

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:41:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi donna.  I too used Methadone like Martee talked about.  I did 30-35mgs first and then dropped over 3 days which didn’t bother the system much but found that the last few mgs were the hardest and the longer you hang on to the methadone the harder it is to break.  I can’t decided if the last bit was a mental crutch or physical or a bit of both.  Perhaps Martee can provide that info.  It does help cleaning up but doesn’t solve the problem of staying clean which apparently ibogaine can provide.  At least it might give you some space to think of alternatives and get your head around cleaning up without hiding under the duvet feeling like shit which is what I got used to doing.  Good luck and best wishes.   Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 3:04:35 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Martee

I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the gear!!!!.  I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, i’ll keep you posted

love donna

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga (long )
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:34:30 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I heard you could see a kinesthiologist( sorry, not sure of the spelling) that could tell you exactly what vitamins, minerals etc were lacking in the body and also let you know what toxins your body had that you had picked up.;  Do you know anything about that??  I thought your herbal medicine message was great although it helps to know what to take as in individual.  I was just thinking of all the different products on the market and sometimes its easy for people to get swamped with false claims and products.   Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Friday, 18 February 2005 2:16:03 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga (long )

Hi Matt !

Here some help 🙂

Ayurvedic:

Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera)
Dr. Shailinder Sodhi, N.D., an expert in Ayurvedic medicine from Bellevue, Washington, says, “Ashwagandha provides a sense of wellbeing with a decrease in anxiety. Users feel mellow. It is also a good aphrodisiac.” Lise Alschuler, N.D., Chair of the Botanical Medicine Department at Bastyr University in Seattle, Washington, adds, “My clinical experience indicates that ashwagandha reduces anxiety and is helpful for insomnia. I recommend it for patients who are tense and need a calming herb. They can think more clearly after being relaxed.”
—————————————————————————————————-

Herbal medecine:
In this world, we all are faced with the effects of a stressful lifestyle. The “stress” symptoms most commonly seen by the health care practitioner are insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness. Fortunately, there are alternatives to the use of prescription medications– many herbal and nutritional remedies work quite well!
The western herbs that act as relaxants as well as nervine tonics are beneficial. These include Valerian, Passion Flower, Chamomile, Vervain, and Oatstraw. This category of herbs not only relaxes nervous tension, but also tones the nervous system. Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) is the most popular of this category, and has been shown in studies to enhance sleep quality with no side-effects the next morning.
Adaptogenic herbs such as Siberian Ginseng and American Ginseng are also useful. The symptoms of insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness are often signs of deep metabolic stress in the body. This category of herbs assist the body in adapting to stress, whether the stress be metabolic, physical, or psychological. Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus) is often taken one to two weeks a month to support the metabolism of the body and to reduce the effects of stress. It also enhances energy and overall health and resistance.
And finally, those under stress need nutritional support. The B Vitamins, Vitamin C, and Calcium are often depleted, and their supplementation is often beneficial. And since L-Tryptophan, the amino acid often used for alleviating insomnia, is no longer available on the market, one may need to choose among these other nutrients.
The following is an Herbal Program that may be useful in treating insomnia.

• As needed Valerian, or Valerian combined with other relaxants and
In addition, try the following program:

• Week 1
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 2
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg of B1,3,6), 3 times daily
• Week 3
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 4
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg B1,3,6), 3 times daily
Janet Zand, OMD, L. Ac., is a respected naturopathic physician who lives and practices in the Los Angeles area. She has developed a unique and effective method of combining herbal medicine with nutrition, homeopathy and acupuncture. Her credentials include a Doctor of Naturopathy, Doctor of Oriental Medicine, and Certified Acupuncturist. Dr. Zand has over fifteen years of clinical experience treating with natural medicine, as well as having formulated her own line of herbal supplements.
————————————————————————————————————————–
Mind body :
Findings from a recent Stanford University Medical School study may come as no surprise: older and middle-age people reported sleeping better when they added regular exercise to their routine. After 16 weeks in a moderate intensity exercise program, subjects were able to fall asleep about 15 minutes earlier and sleep about 45 minutes longer at night.
Researchers selected 29 women and 14 men with mild sleep complaints for a 16-week controlled study. All participants were age 50 to 74, lived sedentary lives, and suffered no cardiovascular disease, stroke or other clinically diagnosed disorder known to cause sleep disorders. All were non-smokers and moderate drinkers. None were seriously overweight or taking hormone replacement therapy, sleep medications or other medications known to affect sleep.
Participants exercised at least four times a week. Twice a week they participated in an organized aerobics class, which included 30 minutes of endurance training. The other two times they exercised on their own, doing 40 minutes of brisk walking or stationary bike riding. To assess impact on sleep, researchers looked at factors such as how long it takes to fall asleep, total hours of sleep per night, how often one wakes up, how one feels when waking up, and daytime function.
The link between aerobic exercise and sleep may seem obvious, but until this study, there has been very little controlled research to support this “conventional wisdom.” Researchers were especially concerned about the overemphasis on sedative hypnotic medications for older adults. Though they are only 20% of the population, older Americans receive almost half the medications prescribed to aid sleep. The potential side effects of these drugs-confusion, falls, extended drowsiness, agitation, and interactions with other medications-can be especially problematic for this age group. Until this study, there have been very few attempts to identify effective non-drug approaches to treating mild sleep disorders.
The study also provides further evidence of the interactions of mind and body. In this case improving physical health shows a positive impact on the mind.
RX: Self-Care Tips 
Try exercise to help your sleep. Here are some tips.
• A drop in body temperature aids sound sleep. So time your exercise five to six hours before bedtime.
• Make your exercise vigorous enough to make you sweat a little. Previous studies have shown that non-aerobic stretching and concentration exercises alone did not impart sleep.
• Stick with it! Participants in this study did not report improved sleep until they had been exercising for 16 weeks.
——————————————————————————————————————————-

—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@call south.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick/history of addiction
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:24:08 AM EST
To: “ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

I can’t agree with your statement about needing a form of sedation to be functional or being overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis.  I also don’t think there is any mystery involved with addicts other than all the usual life questions or the recovery solution.    Tis amazing what we can learn about drugs, how to get them, adapt them, use them even if we don’t want to learn other things.  Telling addicts that its a high-strength painkiller is hardly startling news to most of us.   Allison

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug Addiction & Sexual Abuse
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:29:06 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear List,

If I were to draw a parallel between sexually abused people and drug addiction it is this:

Both are broken down by their experiences to the point where they see themselves as a piece of shit. In this state it is ludicrous to talk about standing up for one rights in the face of endless propaganda which preaches that the addiction condition is a reflection of the worthlessness of the individual or that the sexually abused in reality asked for it (rape for instance). (Not to mention just trying to get through the day.) Why? Because in this state of mind one tends to somewhere agree with the propaganda and it is dam difficult to argue against that in public when at some level you believe it yourself unless you are in some kind of process of healing. (Apart from that just getting through the day is hard enough. The idea of politically active addicts is bordering on a luxury condition for most addicts I would imagine.)

Also, I would add that peoples prejudice towards drug addiction based on illegal drugs is due to what they see in the streets and the resultant crime due to the need to pay for the fix. Its straightforward human nature. Not rocket science.

What I find sad & discriminatory in a way with the discussion of drug addiction on this list is the lack of awareness of the similarities between what the addict suffers and what others such as the sexually abused have suffered. Its a somewhat insular viewpoint, i.e., the idea that if you have never been a drug addict you cannot make an important contribution based on your own, albeit, other experiences. Its closed thinking. I find it quite possible to perceive what addicts have been through, and are going through, based on my own experiences which left me feeling suicidal from time to time and on my own without anyone in the world to care for me. Yet, as I am not a member of the addict club in many ways my views are not so relevant. That kind of narrow mindedness will get the drug addiction community nowhere fast.

I think as long as “drug addicts” put themselves on a separate pedestal to the rest of us they will lack the collective support they need to advance their position. It cannot be fought along the lines of: I am an addict and I’ll tell you how it is but you don’t tell me anything because you know jack shit! So if you are going to help me do as I say, not as I do.

I have spent 6 months reading this list and learning little by little the issues and the problems surrounding drug addiction. What has kept me hooked (in part) is the empathy I feel for the genuine suffering I can identify with on this list. Yet, how many on this list know enough about the effects of sexual abuse to pass judgement that there is nothing in common or that it is outside the comprehension of a victim of sexual abuse to comprehend the experience of an addict? (Indeed I am only taking one example – there are others, victims of war,…..). If you need proof of what I am saying maybe I can sit down and write about a day in the life of an addict beginning with: Woke up this morning feeling like shit. I can’t get out of bed as it hurts to be awake but I have no choice…. Oh, sorry, for a second I thought I was reminiscing.

When we start to see our commonality across the board (and look outside our politically correct box) in all areas of discrimination (including addicts towards non-addicts) and suffering maybe there will be a better chance to do something for everyone involved.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 6:20:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PLEASE NEVER APOLOGIZE FOR BASHING BUSH AS HE’LL  SUCK THE PACIFIST RIGHT OUT OF YOUR SOUL,IMHO
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:25 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:11:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie, I was thinking the same thing.                  Randy

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Exorcism and the Vatican’s new University course
Date: February 18, 2005 at 3:06:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I hate to bring this topic up again, but… Feel them spirits… Feel
all right now….

The original article can be found on SFGate.com here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/17/international/i013537S99.DTL
———————————————————————
Thursday, February 17, 2005 (AP)
Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes
By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer

(02-17) 12:31 PST ROME, Italy (AP) —

In a classroom ringed by Rome’s pine-covered hills, 100 priests solemnly
stood in prayer, made the sign of the cross and got down to business: a
lesson on Satanism, demonic possession and exorcism.

Worried about ritual killings in Italy and simple adolescent angst, a
Vatican-recognized university launched the course Thursday to help priests
and seminarians understand what makes people turn to the occult. The class
is billed as the first of its kind, with wide-ranging instruction by
exorcists, psychologists and a police criminologist.

The Pontifical Academy “Regina Apostolorum” wants to clear up
misconceptions _ especially about exorcisms, a practice most priests do
not carry out.

“An exorcist once told me that he asked his bishop for advice and was
told, ‘Go figure it out by yourself,” said Giuseppe Ferrari,
secretary-general of the Socio-Religious Research and Information Group,
co-sponsor of the class.

Thursday’s lecturer, Rev. Gabriele Nanni, touched on the pitfalls of
driving the devil from someone’s body.

Priests must never be proud of their ability, remembering that they are
merely conduits of Christ, he said. They must not perform exorcisms on
people they suspect have psychological problems. And they should not get
carried away and invent mystical gestures.

“Everything must be carried out in extreme sobriety,” cautioned Nanni, an
exorcist himself. Among the few acceptable tools are a crucifix and
prayer.

In shop talk at the end of class, one priest admitted that in his decades
of performing exorcisms, he wasn’t always sure he was doing it right.
Another asked if seances, for example, could leave people vulnerable to
psychological problems.

“All contact with the occult and the esoteric is extremely dangerous,”
Nanni told the sea of priests in black jackets and white collars.

The class debuts as an Italian court prepares to try eight people believed
to belong to a Satanic sect for their alleged role in three ritual
killings. Sect members belonged to a heavy metal band called “Beasts of
Satan.”

One of the victims was a 19-year-old stabbed to death in 1998. She may
have been targeted because her killers believed she was a personification
of the Virgin Mary, prosecutors allege. Another victim was shot last year
and buried alive.

Beyond the violence, Italian officials are concerned about young people
who develop personal forms of Satanism, outside the sects closely
monitored by police. They often learn about the devil through the
Internet.

“It’s a more spontaneous and hidden phenomenon, a problem of loneliness
and isolation, a problem of emptiness, that is fulfilled by the values of
Satanism,” said Carlo Climati, an author who will teach a course on the
devil’s lure to young people.

The class at the academy _ run by the Legionaries of Christ, a
conservative order _ drew both Italians and foreigners. Rev. Christopher
Barak, who came from the Lincoln, Neb., area at his bishop’s request,
senses a renewed concern about the devil among Roman Catholics.

“In the ’60s and ’70s, people got away from that,” Barak said. “Even
theologians said, ‘No, the devil is just a myth.'”

The course ends in April with the culminating lesson: “Testimony of an
Exorcist.” Two of Italy’s some 400 exorcists are to tell their stories.

Widely accepted signs of possession _ some of which were depicted in the
1973 movie, “The Exorcist” _ include speaking in unknown tongues and
demonstrating physical force beyond one’s natural capacity. In 1999, when
the Vatican issued its first new guidelines since 1614 for driving out
devils, it urged priests to take modern psychiatry into account in
deciding who should be exorcised.

The updated exorcism rite, contained in a red, leather-bound book, was a
reflection of Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince the skeptical that
the devil is very much in the world. At the time, he gave a series of
homilies denouncing the devil as a “cosmic liar and murderer.”

A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his
memoirs that John Paul performed the exorcism rite in 1982, on an Italian
woman who was screaming and writhing.

___

Associated Press writer Liza Keidan in Rome contributed to this report.

———————————————————————-
Copyright 2005 AP

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 18, 2005 at 1:50:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What if they are mass murderers? Are you still gone watch and do nothing?
Not saying anything is like hiding your had in the sand.
Saying you don’t like it is your right. I don’t think you should feel
That you need to apologize.
S.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2005 3:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] in retrospect

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 18, 2005 at 12:19:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I and most of the others would
get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our
feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in
acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be
inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I, I, not You.
I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” <

Darn it, see what I went and did here? I wrote “we, and we,” not “I would get so frustrated,” but “we would get so…etc.” That’s silly. How do I know how they felt? I have no idea really. I can really only honestly speak for me. Right?
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did actually pick up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program, to try and stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize things. Sitting in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the others would get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I, I, not You. I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every single time I read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME, and what is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually realize it or not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try to take the “but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against YOU? What do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about ME and how I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a result of what YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.
Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices Nick- what do YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 18, 2005 at 12:15:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

you and your friend both got it from this direction martee.
best of thoughts and affections your ways.

Peace and love and lots of light, warmth and laughter,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: m.finman
To: ibo
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:37 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer

Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any who will.  Someone near and very dear to me is currently in session.  I feel collective prayer is like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.
Martee

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Methadone review article raises more questions than it answers!
Date: February 18, 2005 at 12:05:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: Methadone review article raises more questions than it answers!

Simoens S, Matheson C, Bond C, Inkster K, Ludbrook A. The effectiveness of community maintenance with methadone or buprenorphine for treating opiate dependence. British Journal of General Practice (2005) 139-146

Dear Colleagues,
It is always gratifying to see dependency subjects covered in mainstream journals.  This should raise awareness of effective opioid maintenance and other therapies for addictions amongst front line health workers.  However, this ‘Review Article’ would be more likely to turn interested GPs, nurses or pharmacists away from being involved in addiction treatments.

The authors quote comparative research which consistently shows buprenorphine to be slightly but significantly inferior to methadone in most outcome measures.  Yet their contradictory conclusion states: “. the evidence suggests that . buprenorphine may even be more effective than methadone, depending on dose”.

While comparisons between methadone and buprenorphine are worth mentioning, these authors seem to read the literature to find out which is ‘best’.  Few would spend time arguing the general ‘superiority’ of one antibiotic over another.  In doing so they miss the point that neither is used altogether appropriately in the UK (or most other countries).  A review article might be expected to address better ways of matching patient to treatment, yet this is largely ignored here despite some useful recent research on the subject, including those with HIV, pregnancy, fast metabolism, etc.

They write further: “There was some evidence that primary care could be an effective setting [for opioid maintenance treatment] but such evidence was sparse”.  This academic peccadillo also applies to insulin, warfarin or most other pharmacotherapies.  Although most research is performed clinics, few would doubt its extension to community practice.  It seems that these authors lack confidence in the Cochrane contributors on the subjects.  The lingering doubts expressed by the authors might deny treatment to most of the patient population while we wait for yet more research!

One of the most important messages of this review paper, UK treatment standards, is almost buried towards the end.  Exemplifying understatement (and some clumsy English) we are told: “With respect to community maintenance with methadone . higher doses of methadone are more effective. This is important because surveys of current prescribing practices of GPs in the UK suggest that methadone may still be underdosed.”  [In fact the mean dose in the UK is less than 40mg daily.  While this is a good starting level it is only half the ‘plateau’ dose needed for optimum results.]

Thus the authors (all but one from Aberdeen) avoid properly addressing the scandal of methadone treatment in the UK which continues unaddressed to this day.  Dependent citizens may thus drop out of inadequate treatment, relapse to heroin use, overdose or contract viral infections while the medical profession gets a bad name for gross mismanagement of opioid dependency.  A similar state of affairs for diabetics, hypertensives or arthritis patients could make an election issue.

After apparently searching the literature for negative items, our current authors also state: ‘higher doses of methadone may increase craving for heroin and decrease subjective wellbeing’.  This is based on one very small study which has never been replicated (Curran et al, Addiction 1999 94:665). The findings conflict with 2000 years of recorded experience where additional opioids are generally associated with reduced cravings and increased feelings of well being in the acute situation.  The Addiction editor wrote to me that there may indeed have been a statistical error in this study but he declined to allow any correspondence on the matter, leaving its rather outlandish sentiments uncontested in the literature.  One assumes that these ‘Review Article’ authors would have read the reference carefully before quoting its title.  John Strang wrote recently that methadone may yet have a ‘sting in the tail’.

After 40 years of clinical experience methadone is no longer “on trial”. The question is why people still express lingering yet unfounded doubts about its safety and effectiveness when used according to established practice guidelines.  It appears that buprenorphine is in the same category.

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:57:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote >If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.<

Nick, a personal gripe with me, one of the main things I did actually pick up and continue to concsciously use from my first 28 day program, to try and stop smoking crack back in the mid 80s, was to personalize things. Sitting in this one particular group, day after day, I and most of the others would get so frustrated, because while we’d be trying to speak and describe our feelings (not what we “thought” but what we “felt”- a common excercise in acting classes too I’ve since discovered), but would constantly be inturrupted by the counselor, who would say, “personalize. I, I, I, not You. I can only speak for me, no one else can do that.” And every single time I read one of your notes, telling me how what’s arrayed against ME, and what is hopeless for me, and what choices I have, I get the feeling that the person you are really talking to is You. Whether you actually realize it or not.
So please, do try and stop telling me (and please don’t try to take the “but I’m speaking all inclusively in general terms” cop out) things you haven’t any clue about- speak for yourself. Who is allied against YOU? What do YOU believe and what effects has it had on YOU, and what did YOU Learn about YOU, since it couldn’t possibly have taught you much about ME and how I’d react or how I’M feeling or the consequences for ME as a result of what YOU learned- I don’t think anyway.
Personalize please. I know what I have in terms of choices Nick- what do YOU have? Do YOU have a choice in what you believe (I ask, not tell)?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:46:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/911/_images/candle_kid.jpg

— “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net> wrote:
Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any
who will.  Someone near and very dear to me is
currently in session.  I feel collective prayer is
like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.

Martee

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Power of Love/just wanted to share
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:41:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HOpe you are well,
Thank you for real for sending this:

— “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net> wrote:
When a woman in a certain African tribe knows she
is pregnant, she goes out
into the wilderness with a few friends and
together they pray and meditate
until they hear the song of the child.  They
recognize that every soul has
its own vibration that expresses its unique flavor
and purpose.  When the
women attune to the song, they sing it out loud.
Then they return to the
tribe and teach it to everyone else.

When the child is born, the community gathers and
sings the child’s song to
him or her.  Later, when the child enters
education, the village gathers
and chants the child’s song.  When the child
passes through the initiation
to adulthood, the people again come together and
sing.  At the time of
marriage, the person hears his or her song.

Finally, when the soul is about to pass from this
world, the family and
friends gather at the person’s bed, just as they
did at their birth, and
they sing the person to the next life.

In the African tribe there is one other occasion
upon which the villagers
sing to the child.  If at any time during a
person’s life, he or she
commits a crime or aberrant social act, that
individual is called to stand
in the center of a circle formed by all members of
the tribe.  Once again
the villagers chant the child’s song.

The tribe recognizes that the correction for
antisocial behavior is not
punishment; it is love and the remembrance of
identity.  When you recognize
your own song, you have no desire or need to do
anything that would hurt
another.

A friend is someone who knows your song and sings
it to you when you have
forgotten it.  Those who love you are not fooled
by mistakes you have made
or dark images you hold about yourself  They
remember your beauty when you
feel ugly; your wholeness when you are broken;
your innocence when you feel
guilty; and your purpose when you are confused.

You may not have grown up in an African tribe that
sings your song to you
at crucial life transitions, but life is always
reminding you when you are
in tune with yourself and when you are not.  When
you feel good, what you
are doing matches your song, and when you feel
awful, it doesn’t.  In the
end, we shall all recognize our song and sing it
well  You may feel a
little wobbly at the moment, but so have all the
great singers.  Just keep
singing and you’ll find your way home.

********************************

© Alan Cohen

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:38:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes 🙂 Yes 🙂 Yes 🙂

Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.



Close your eyes
Look deep in your soul
Step outside yourself
And let your mind go

Close your eyes
And forget your name
Step outside yourself
And let your thoughts drain


Smiling Faces

Can you dig it?

– S. k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Say a prayer
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:37:20 PM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Kindly,
Knowing the power of prayer, I would request any who will.  Someone near and very dear to me is currently in session.  I feel collective prayer is like poetry in motion. I appreciate your light.
Martee
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Power of Love/just wanted to share
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:27:44 PM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When a woman in a certain African tribe knows she is pregnant, she goes out
into the wilderness with a few friends and together they pray and meditate
until they hear the song of the child.  They recognize that every soul has
its own vibration that expresses its unique flavor and purpose.  When the
women attune to the song, they sing it out loud.  Then they return to the
tribe and teach it to everyone else.

When the child is born, the community gathers and sings the child’s song to
him or her.  Later, when the child enters education, the village gathers
and chants the child’s song.  When the child passes through the initiation
to adulthood, the people again come together and sing.  At the time of
marriage, the person hears his or her song.

Finally, when the soul is about to pass from this world, the family and
friends gather at the person’s bed, just as they did at their birth, and
they sing the person to the next life.

In the African tribe there is one other occasion upon which the villagers
sing to the child.  If at any time during a person’s life, he or she
commits a crime or aberrant social act, that individual is called to stand
in the center of a circle formed by all members of the tribe.  Once again
the villagers chant the child’s song.

The tribe recognizes that the correction for antisocial behavior is not
punishment; it is love and the remembrance of identity.  When you recognize
your own song, you have no desire or need to do anything that would hurt
another.

A friend is someone who knows your song and sings it to you when you have
forgotten it.  Those who love you are not fooled by mistakes you have made
or dark images you hold about yourself  They remember your beauty when you
feel ugly; your wholeness when you are broken; your innocence when you feel
guilty; and your purpose when you are confused.

You may not have grown up in an African tribe that sings your song to you
at crucial life transitions, but life is always reminding you when you are
in tune with yourself and when you are not.  When you feel good, what you
are doing matches your song, and when you feel awful, it doesn’t.  In the
end, we shall all recognize our song and sing it well  You may feel a
little wobbly at the moment, but so have all the great singers.  Just keep
singing and you’ll find your way home.

               ********************************
>© Alan Cohen

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:15:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Preston for this nice article.
Following on the subject of atrocities..
Here an article the price paid by the oldest democraty of South America
:Colombia for the drug War

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1411812,00.html

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte

you know, it’s stories like this that make me wonder
why there have not been more Bush assassination
attempts…I mean, where the fuck are all the crazies
when you need them…

not that I endorse assassination or anything, but come
on- this is f*cking ridiculous.

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 10:59:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Donna,
Actually you really don’t have to half cut anything if you’re doing only 3-4 days.  The thing for me was to always be comfortable and maybe then some.  I believe it was the generous dose for 3 days and maybe minimal if any on the 4th that the accumulative affect of those doses held me through any residual.  That whole weaning off thing does not apply because you aren’t addicted in 3 days to have to wean off of anything.  I NEVER let myself go past 4 days 3 preferably as that’s when I always felt I would be pushing my luck. Being in water, showers or baths would always give the most relief and also not sitting around focusing on if anything didn’t feel right.  I am not exagerating when I tell you this was discomfort free on the physical side.  It wasn’t until I did the ibogaine that I was able to really do what I thought was the unthinkable for me.
I wish you the best,
Martee
Ps. I was also wondering if you had considered weaning off the H before detoxing or weaning down?
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Martee
So Day 1 no H, enough meth to make me feel ok, then day 2 cut it in half, and day 3 cut dose in half again???? for example: day 1:80mls, day 2:40mls day 3:20mls day 4: nothing?  Is this what you mean????? if so is it not hurrendous on day 4, 5 and 6????
love Donna
ps: I really appreciate all your advice, thank you so muchxxxxxxxxxx

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] in retrospect
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:25:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LIst,

Just wanted to apologize for my remarks about Bush
earlier today.  I have been cranky lately and have let
it seep into my correspondence.  I am a pacifist, and
wish no harm to any other living thing.

Talking politics can be a real downer.  That’s why I
leave you with a quick blurb from the Simpsons.

Apu: I have come to make amends, sir. At first, I
blamed you for squealing, but then I realized, it was
I who wronged you. So I have come to work off my debt.
I am at your service.
Homer: You’re selling what, now?
Apu: I am selling only the concept of karmic
realignment.
Homer: You can’t sell that! Karma can only be
portioned out by the cosmos.
Apu: He’s got me there.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga (long )
Date: February 17, 2005 at 8:15:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Matt !

Here some help 🙂

Ayurvedic:

Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera)
Dr. Shailinder Sodhi, N.D., an expert in Ayurvedic medicine from Bellevue, Washington, says, “Ashwagandha provides a sense of wellbeing with a decrease in anxiety. Users feel mellow. It is also a good aphrodisiac.” Lise Alschuler, N.D., Chair of the Botanical Medicine Department at Bastyr University in Seattle, Washington, adds, “My clinical experience indicates that ashwagandha reduces anxiety and is helpful for insomnia. I recommend it for patients who are tense and need a calming herb. They can think more clearly after being relaxed.”
—————————————————————————————————-

Herbal medecine:
In this world, we all are faced with the effects of a stressful lifestyle. The “stress” symptoms most commonly seen by the health care practitioner are insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness. Fortunately, there are alternatives to the use of prescription medications– many herbal and nutritional remedies work quite well!
The western herbs that act as relaxants as well as nervine tonics are beneficial. These include Valerian, Passion Flower, Chamomile, Vervain, and Oatstraw. This category of herbs not only relaxes nervous tension, but also tones the nervous system. Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) is the most popular of this category, and has been shown in studies to enhance sleep quality with no side-effects the next morning.
Adaptogenic herbs such as Siberian Ginseng and American Ginseng are also useful. The symptoms of insomnia, anxiety, and restlessness are often signs of deep metabolic stress in the body. This category of herbs assist the body in adapting to stress, whether the stress be metabolic, physical, or psychological. Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus) is often taken one to two weeks a month to support the metabolism of the body and to reduce the effects of stress. It also enhances energy and overall health and resistance.
And finally, those under stress need nutritional support. The B Vitamins, Vitamin C, and Calcium are often depleted, and their supplementation is often beneficial. And since L-Tryptophan, the amino acid often used for alleviating insomnia, is no longer available on the market, one may need to choose among these other nutrients.
The following is an Herbal Program that may be useful in treating insomnia.

• As needed Valerian, or Valerian combined with other relaxants and
In addition, try the following program:

• Week 1
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 2
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg of B1,3,6), 3 times daily
• Week 3
Siberian Ginseng or other adaptogenic herbs
Dosage: 1 dose, 3 times daily Calcium/Magnesium
Further restores and relaxes the nervous system
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 250 mg of Calcium), 3 times daily
• Week 4
B Complex
Supports metabolism during times of stress
Dosage: 1 dose (up to 50 mg B1,3,6), 3 times daily
Janet Zand, OMD, L. Ac., is a respected naturopathic physician who lives and practices in the Los Angeles area. She has developed a unique and effective method of combining herbal medicine with nutrition, homeopathy and acupuncture. Her credentials include a Doctor of Naturopathy, Doctor of Oriental Medicine, and Certified Acupuncturist. Dr. Zand has over fifteen years of clinical experience treating with natural medicine, as well as having formulated her own line of herbal supplements.
————————————————————————————————————————–
Mind body :
Findings from a recent Stanford University Medical School study may come as no surprise: older and middle-age people reported sleeping better when they added regular exercise to their routine. After 16 weeks in a moderate intensity exercise program, subjects were able to fall asleep about 15 minutes earlier and sleep about 45 minutes longer at night.
Researchers selected 29 women and 14 men with mild sleep complaints for a 16-week controlled study. All participants were age 50 to 74, lived sedentary lives, and suffered no cardiovascular disease, stroke or other clinically diagnosed disorder known to cause sleep disorders. All were non-smokers and moderate drinkers. None were seriously overweight or taking hormone replacement therapy, sleep medications or other medications known to affect sleep.
Participants exercised at least four times a week. Twice a week they participated in an organized aerobics class, which included 30 minutes of endurance training. The other two times they exercised on their own, doing 40 minutes of brisk walking or stationary bike riding. To assess impact on sleep, researchers looked at factors such as how long it takes to fall asleep, total hours of sleep per night, how often one wakes up, how one feels when waking up, and daytime function.
The link between aerobic exercise and sleep may seem obvious, but until this study, there has been very little controlled research to support this “conventional wisdom.” Researchers were especially concerned about the overemphasis on sedative hypnotic medications for older adults. Though they are only 20% of the population, older Americans receive almost half the medications prescribed to aid sleep. The potential side effects of these drugs-confusion, falls, extended drowsiness, agitation, and interactions with other medications-can be especially problematic for this age group. Until this study, there have been very few attempts to identify effective non-drug approaches to treating mild sleep disorders.
The study also provides further evidence of the interactions of mind and body. In this case improving physical health shows a positive impact on the mind.
RX: Self-Care Tips 
Try exercise to help your sleep. Here are some tips.
• A drop in body temperature aids sound sleep. So time your exercise five to six hours before bedtime.
• Make your exercise vigorous enough to make you sweat a little. Previous studies have shown that non-aerobic stretching and concentration exercises alone did not impart sleep.
• Stick with it! Participants in this study did not report improved sleep until they had been exercising for 16 weeks.
——————————————————————————————————————————-

—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 6:30:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy
Thanks buddy:] i will do a search and go to my doctor asap….6 hours of sleep would be a gift from heaven…haha funny doctor eh….unfortunetly the only sex i will be having now is with my right hand heh:]
Much apprieciated..Best Regards
matt

>From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:15:57 EST > >Matt, my mother tells me it was Remeron. That sounds right. Do a google or >whatever to find out what you can. My Doc gave them to me instead of the benzo’s >he promised and pissed me off royally. He did the right thing. They did help >about as much as the bezo’s I got on my own. I would get 5 or 6 hours of sleep >every time I melted one on my tongue. I never tried two because I didn’t want >to feel any weirder than I already was feeling. Let me say this before >someone else does, sex helps with this issue too. Couldn’t suck worse than not >sleepin’. (he said suck, huhu) Good luck dude, stick around. Randy

Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A position
Date: February 17, 2005 at 6:19:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 16/02/2005 22:40:21 GMT Standard Time, jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au writes:
Hi Jasen,
How are you, you sound really well and positive which is great.
Although I am still strong,..I am not comfortable in my home now or my surroundings,I have some
big decisions to make.

Why dont you move the world is your oyster!!! fresh start might be great for you!!!

It’s like I am being taught to handle life’s pressures,challenges,and make big decisions whilst
haze free. It says,”can you handle it man?” and I say” f*ck yes I can handle it,..but settle down a bit ay.

Thats because you can handle lifes pressures, you are strong, and the drugs are not supressing you anymore, do you feel ready to settle down???? if you are go for it, but if you are not sure do not rush into anything, i think you are the best judge of whats right for you now.  I will be as positive as you soon, very soon.  I have spoken with Sara and she said I can pop over and see her, I was hoping to do this at the weekend, but I cant. I will do it when I get back im off on holiday for a week.

Thank you so much for all your advice.

Take care of youxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 6:15:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt, my mother tells me it was Remeron. That sounds right. Do a google or whatever to find out what you can. My Doc gave them to me instead of the benzo’s he promised and pissed me off royally. He did the right thing. They did help about as much as the bezo’s I got on my own. I would get 5 or 6 hours of sleep every time I melted one on my tongue. I never tried two because I didn’t want to feel any weirder than I already was feeling. Let me say this before someone else does, sex helps with this issue too. Couldn’t suck worse than not sleepin’. (he said suck, huhu) Good luck dude, stick around.                 Randy

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:23:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy
Anything that would help would be much apreciated–but no sedatives/tranqulaizers/benzos–done with that shit:}}
Best Regards
Matt

>From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:59:17 EST > >Matt, after Ibo my Doc gave me some kind of anti depressant that really >helped. I can’t remember what it was so I’ll call him Friday and find out. It >wasn’t Elavil. I’ve been meaning to call him and thank him for helping me anyway. 5 >months later I still sleep sporadically. I always did though. I’ve never had >”normal” sleep patterns and I think that is true with a lot of us. It is good >to see more people using Ibogaine. Randy

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:19:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey:}
The only reason im taking the melatonin and other suplements is beacasuse im worried i wont be able to sleep at all:{{ AS for dreams when i do sleep the are very vivid,symbolic ,colorfull:}]
Best Regards
matt

>From: “” <thethird@myway.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:42:22 -0500 (EST) > > >Hey Matt, for me it was hard to get exercise after Ibo, because I was exhausted all the time from lack of sleep, but if it’s possible to physically run your body, and then take a hot bath, maybe you could get some sleep. Also, I’ve heard of people who have reverse reactions to downers, where they actually feel peppy from taking them. Do you think maybe you’d sleep better without the melatonin, or do you notice that it makes you a little drowsy? I wondered because you said that you had insomnia while on opiates/benzos. I feel for you because I am the type of person who gets real crabby when I don’t sleep. Good Luck and let me know if you find something that worksLaura P.S. when you do get some sleep, how is your dream content? Do you have vivid dreams or don’t you remember them at all? Just curious.— On Thu 02/17, matthew zielinski &lt; mattzielinski@hotmail.com &gt; wrote:From: matthew zielinski [mailto: mattzielinski@hotmail.com]To: ibogaine@mindvox.comDate: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:13 -0800Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga > > > > > >Hi all >Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions? >REgards >Matt > > > >Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] ]=———————————————————————=[/ > > >_______________________________________________ >No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. >Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:59:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt, after Ibo my Doc gave me some kind of anti depressant that really helped. I can’t remember what it was so I’ll call him Friday and find out. It wasn’t Elavil. I’ve been meaning to call him and thank him for helping me anyway. 5 months later I still sleep sporadically. I always did though. I’ve never had “normal” sleep patterns and I think that is true with a lot of us. It is good to see more people using Ibogaine.         Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:51:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Why people are so judgmental about determinate drugz ?

When I was In Afganistan, in Kabul in the 70s. I’ve seen a bunch of opium
house and I went to visit a couple .
Basicly, what I saw : kids laying down on carpet smoking opium. Something ,
I remember clearly  the noise of the succion on the pipes. Another thing
peculiar: the Opium house will never open theirs wood shutters. Never!!!.
The door will open briefly to let enter a smoker. I have seen kids stuck for
month in theses dark room. I have seen later English  teenager girls selling
for few roupies theirs bodies in the crowded bordello of Delhi.I’ ve seen a
German jounalist who could barely walk out of his room and was sweeting
something yellow. Lying on his bed, skinny as Gandhi he use to tell me , –
“look, I am sweeting my brain out.” …..

I have no simpathy for thief that you previously trust.

For me this type of drugs are thiefs that rob men and women from theirs
dignity and birth right to be happy.
francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users
rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I
find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also
true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots
when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some
cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know
so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be
done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard
to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that,
take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I
hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:42:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Matt, for me it was hard to get exercise after Ibo, because I was exhausted all the time from lack of sleep, but if it’s possible to physically run your body, and then take a hot bath, maybe you could get some sleep. Also, I’ve heard of people who have reverse reactions to downers, where they actually feel peppy from taking them. Do you think maybe you’d sleep better without the melatonin, or do you notice that it makes you a little drowsy? I wondered because you said that you had insomnia while on opiates/benzos. I feel for you because I am the type of person who gets real crabby when I don’t sleep.
Good Luck and let me know if you find something that works
Laura

P.S. when you do get some sleep, how is your dream content? Do you have vivid dreams or don’t you remember them at all? Just curious.

— On Thu 02/17, matthew zielinski < mattzielinski@hotmail.com > wrote:

From: matthew zielinski [mailto: mattzielinski@hotmail.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:13 -0800
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] ]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] sleep after eboga
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:33:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all
Its been a month and 3 days since i had a session with Eboga for my heroin/meth habbit…I still continue to sleep only 2-3 hours a day. Is this normal? I had a history of anxiety/insomnia while using opiates…i could take 150mg of diazepam without becoming drowsy…i also did alot of other benzos is high amounts lorazepam clonzazepam bronazepam etc…as of now i am taking a lot of different homeopathic remedies plus melatonin 5htp and herbal suplemts but nothing works..any suggestions?
REgards
Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:02:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 20:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a
definite risk to
speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use
currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights,
they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also
investigations
and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the
get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could
be gay and
not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but
illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are
using/buying/selling
illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ
crime, to
the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly
believe Nick, no
matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this
past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users
shouldn’t be using
unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

I don’t believe in taking a drug long-term that represses awareness, it’s
true. I’m also not so against it like it’s evil or something. And for sure
nothing is Black and White, except when you need to change something. I find
people who just want to hold a negative position a drag, this is also true.
Part of me is ok with addicts, part of me is pissed off with them, part of
me loves them, and part of me is happy to push them a bit and see what
happens.

About the law, you have to take that on. Look for the myriad weakspots when
it comes to enforcement and group-action, civil rights issues, and some cops
own desire to see something positive happen with addiction. I don’t know so
much about the US, I’m in the UK, but there’s a lot that can be done….that
is if you don’t just imprison yourself in negative and self-limiting
beliefs. If you do then you get what happens, and you’re confimed to a
lifetime of blaming others. What pro-addiction forces want is for you to
believe that the position is hopeless, that the forces mounted against you
are too much to be overwhelmed. If you believe that then it’s pretty hard to
move on anything. You always have a choice. If you don’t believe that, take
the choice to dump your belief systems. You have the choice what you
believe.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee.
Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came
here. I don’t
think that they are really treated any better now then they were
then. Seems
like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put
effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate
that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a
reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE.
Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites,
wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are
influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted
and keep the
job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces
when they
can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society
cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and
everyone
else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does
society really
want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the
skeletons in just
about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

/]=—————————————————————
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:46:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote >For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.<

Hey, what do you know, I somewhat agree with you here Nick!
;-)))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 19:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, don’t you think all the promotion for the war on drugs is another reason that discrimination against drug users continues?

Hi Laura,

Yes, I do.  I mean by no means is it an easy position. That was also the case for blacks, gays and other groups socially and governmentally discriminated against. The thing I was saying was that to change media and government attitudes these guys usually had to join together, form pressure groups and become politically active themselves. I can’t imagine that the shift in say US civil rights for black citizens would have occurred without the massive input from the group affected. If this is true then it seems reasonable that addicts may have to follow the same path. You can say that this isn’t democratic, I would agree. But it’s just that history unfortunately seems to show that this is how things work.

It’s hard to convince people to see drug users in a different light when the media all around them is infested with propaganda against drugs. Also, a majority of drug users themselves listen to what is being said about them and decide that they have a ‘disease’ that needs to be cured, and further promote the idea that drug users should be treated differently until they get ‘back to their senses’. When you become convinced that they are right, you generally don’t put up a fight. You also bring up the idea that things have changed for gays, but when I look around, I don’t see a lot of progressive change. Measures just passed making it illegal for gays to marry in many states, and I hear the word ‘fag’ used as a derogatory term on a regular basis.

In relation to some of your earlier posts, you always bring up your opinion that heroin represses feel ings, and that may be true for some people, but for me personally, it was different. There were many details of my past that I never thought about until I did heroin. I didn’t even know I was running from these past events until I found myself thinking about them while high. Heroin actually relaxed me to the point where I could mentally bring issues up and think about them without having my defense mechanisms block the thoughts. This obviously is not the case for all people, but it actually helped me in a way.

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

In the late 90s I paid to stick up a load of posters around central London with messages like “1% of people in this city are addicted to one of the world’s most powerful painkillers – heroin.” My intent was to bring about some street level demystification. Don’t know how well it worked, probably just a drop in the ocean.

Nick

It would be pointless for me to continue to keep taking heroin for that reason, because it has served it’s purpose in that area, but it did help. Did you ever read Diary of a Drug Fiend? I know it’s probably somewhat of a cliche to bring this book up, but I read it a long time ago, and, if I remember correctly, Crowley brought up the point that drugs can be used to obtain certain goals, and this is not bad or evil, but it can be bad when drugs are keeping you from what YOUR pur pose is (not a purpose that someone else has decided for you, mind you). If I am totally misconstruing the book, I’m sorry, it’s been awhile, but that’s what I remember. I do understand what you mean about some people using opiates to run from feelings, as I have seen this myself, but substances don’t act the same on everyone, and I truly think that some people get something from opiates that benefits them.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, Sara Glatt < sara119@xs4all.nl > wrote:

From: Sara Glatt [mailto: sara119@xs4all.nl]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:12 +0100
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwe rp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
t hen further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indian s got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:35:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and for that matter, when it comes to drug reform, it’s a definite risk to speak out for our rights these days Nick, in that it’s ILLEGAL to use currently illegal drugs, so when someone speaks up for drug users rights, they not only risk the “you druggie lover” labels, but also investigations and more horror for speaking out.
So right away drug users have a huge block to break through from the get-go. While gay used to be illegal in some countries, one could be gay and not be arrested- it was only illegal to actually engage in gaydom- but illegal drugs now, it’s illegal to even know people are using/buying/selling illegal drugs and NOT TURN THEM IN. That’s conspiracy to committ crime, to the best of my understanding, no?
So it’s not the same Nick, not even close.
It’s your predjudices that are at issue here I honestly believe Nick, no matter how you phrase it, and you’ve phrased it many different ways this past week, every time saying the same thing- opiate users shouldn’t be using unless they have a good reason, one that Nick Sandberg feels is “good.”

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee. Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came here. I don’t think that they are really treated any better now then they were then. Seems like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE. Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites, wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted and keep the job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces when they can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and everyone else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does society really want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the skeletons in just about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:21:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.<

I can’t help but be reminded of all the anti-marijuana propaganda about how pot makes users lethargic and uninspired and lackadasical Nick, and how even with all the propaganda pot users got up and changed the laws in what is it, 11 states in the US in the last few years- and yet, in many of them, while the cops and prohibitionists said over and over “if you don’t like the law, change it,” and the users did so, the cops and prohibitionists insist that it doesn’t matter, that pot is still evil and the users still must pay some kind of penalty, even if just a trip downtown and a ticket.
Every time you write something like this Nick, what I mainly see is your own personal predjudice against opiates.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:13:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ll do whatever is in my power to do.     Randy

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:11:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

you know, it’s stories like this that make me wonder
why there have not been more Bush assassination
attempts…I mean, where the fuck are all the crazies
when you need them…

not that I endorse assassination or anything, but come
on- this is f*cking ridiculous.

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:10:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 19:36
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee. Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came here. I don’t think that they are really treated any better now then they were then. Seems like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE. Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites, wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted and keep the job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces when they can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and everyone else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does society really want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the skeletons in just about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

Hey Randy,

Well, I’m in the UK and don’t know so much about the plight of the native Americans but I’m sure you’re right. But it seems to me you’re finding a negative outcome to push for doing nothing – society’s fucked up and that’s how it is. I don’t take that position, personally. For sure, society will turn a blind eye and just sit in a prejudicial position given half a chance. But what if you take a position against that? Why not become the Martin Luther King of addicts? Someone’s gonna have to give it a try.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:05:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 17 February 2005 19:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Nick, don’t you think all the promotion for the war on drugs is another reason that discrimination against drug users continues?

Hi Laura,

Yes, I do.  I mean by no means is it an easy position. That was also the case for blacks, gays and other groups socially and governmentally discriminated against. The thing I was saying was that to change media and government attitudes these guys usually had to join together, form pressure groups and become politically active themselves. I can’t imagine that the shift in say US civil rights for black citizens would have occurred without the massive input from the group affected. If this is true then it seems reasonable that addicts may have to follow the same path. You can say that this isn’t democratic, I would agree. But it’s just that history unfortunately seems to show that this is how things work.

It’s hard to convince people to see drug users in a different light when the media all around them is infested with propaganda against drugs. Also, a majority of drug users themselves listen to what is being said about them and decide that they have a ‘disease’ that needs to be cured, and further promote the idea that drug users should be treated differently until they get ‘back to their senses’. When you become convinced that they are right, you generally don’t put up a fight. You also bring up the idea that things have changed for gays, but when I look around, I don’t see a lot of progressive change. Measures just passed making it illegal for gays to marry in many states, and I hear the word ‘fag’ used as a derogatory term on a regular basis.

In relation to some of your earlier posts, you always bring up your opinion that heroin represses feel ings, and that may be true for some people, but for me personally, it was different. There were many details of my past that I never thought about until I did heroin. I didn’t even know I was running from these past events until I found myself thinking about them while high. Heroin actually relaxed me to the point where I could mentally bring issues up and think about them without having my defense mechanisms block the thoughts. This obviously is not the case for all people, but it actually helped me in a way.

Point taken. It’s very true. For some people they are so overwhelmed by feelings on a daily basis that they actually need a form of sedation just to be functional. My thing is that it is socially useful to understand a drug in terms of its action. This is why I push for heroin addicts to recognize that their drug is a high-strength painkiller. It demystifies it, both for addict and fearing public. Once you start to take out the fear then the real issues with heroin can become clearer and be more usefully addressed.

In the late 90s I paid to stick up a load of posters around central London with messages like “1% of people in this city are addicted to one of the world’s most powerful painkillers – heroin.” My intent was to bring about some street level demystification. Don’t know how well it worked, probably just a drop in the ocean.

Nick

It would be pointless for me to continue to keep taking heroin for that reason, because it has served it’s purpose in that area, but it did help. Did you ever read Diary of a Drug Fiend? I know it’s probably somewhat of a cliche to bring this book up, but I read it a long time ago, and, if I remember correctly, Crowley brought up the point that drugs can be used to obtain certain goals, and this is not bad or evil, but it can be bad when drugs are keeping you from what YOUR pur pose is (not a purpose that someone else has decided for you, mind you). If I am totally misconstruing the book, I’m sorry, it’s been awhile, but that’s what I remember. I do understand what you mean about some people using opiates to run from feelings, as I have seen this myself, but substances don’t act the same on everyone, and I truly think that some people get something from opiates that benefits them.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, Sara Glatt < sara119@xs4all.nl > wrote:

From: Sara Glatt [mailto: sara119@xs4all.nl]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:12 +0100
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwe rp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

> —–Original Message—–
> From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
> Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
>
>
> Dear Francis,
>
> First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
> term?
>
> As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
> we can go
> back
> in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
> experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
> individual but, how
> they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how
> one may be viewed
> and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my
> mind the
> harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
> conventions that
> mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
> t hen further
> defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
> punishable by long
> prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
> not only tracked
> by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
> drugs in
> order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
> resulted in
> greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
> stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
> significantly increase the
> psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
> simply to create
> an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
> and makes
> worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
> users in society
> in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
> in states
> where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
> terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
> that I have heralded
> ibogaine for so much of my life.
>
> Howard
>

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indian s got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] atrocities of a pale rider- john d. negroponte
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:04:43 PM EST
To: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My friend and one of my heros Cele Castillo, lead DEA agent on the ground in El Salvador and a few other countries during the 80s (a hero even with his years as an anti-drug warrior- but he’s a bit changed nowadays) sent me (and a bunch of others too) this editorial this morning, in honor of Bush’s nominee, John D. Negroponte (how in the heck this guy isn’t serving time I do not…oh, hold on, he’s one of the insiders, of course I know, what am I thinking…must be this darned flu, has me feeling a bit befuddleded).
Enjoy.

http://www.drugwar.com/castillonegroponte.shtm

“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him”.
Revelation 6:7
The Atrocities of a Pale Rider-
John D. Negroponte
by
Celerino Castillo 3rd
posted at DrugWar.com
Feb. 17, 2005
The above biblical quotation is the only way I can describe John Dimitri Negroponte because of the atrocities he’s previously committed around the world.

From 1971 to 1973, Negroponte was the officer-in charge for Vietnam at the National Security Council under Henry Kissinger. During that period, former DEA Michael Levine was conducting undercover operations in Saigon, Thailand, and Cambodia where our government was smuggling heroin into the U.S. Our government was utilizing caskets and body bags of those “Killed In Action” to smuggled the heroin.

From 1981-1985, Negroponte was U.S. Ambassador to Honduras, where he illegally assisted the contra war and, most devastating, helped the Reagan administration in “disappearing” close to 300 political opponents in classic death squad fashion. He supervised the creation of the El Aguacate air base, which the Contras used as a secret detention and torture center. In August 2001, excavations at the base discovered 185 corpses, including two American missionaries. In May 1982, a nun, Sister Laetitia Bordes went on a fact-finding delegation to Honduras to investigate the whereabouts of thirty Salvadoran nuns who fled to Honduras in 1981. Negroponte claimed the embassy knew nothing. But in 1996, a U.S. newspaper interviewed Negroponte’s predecessor, Jack Binns. Binns said that a group of Salvadorans, among whom was Bordes, who had been captured on April 22, 1981, and savagely tortured by the Honduran Secret Police, and then later thrown out of helicopters, alive. Negroponte turned a deliberate blind eye to a murderous pattern of political killings. He orchestrated the famous death squad Battalion 316, which used shock and suffocation devices in interrogations. Prisoners were often kept naked and when no longer useful, killed and buried in unmarked graves. We have seen similar pictures of those atrocities committed by our service men and women in Iraq.

snip-

Lots more to make those of us with working hearts and minds really sick at the above URL

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:01:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy !
You wrote :
I’m sorry if I came across as a smart ass with my reply to you.

# Hey Randy , my question really look like a set up 🙂

Thank you for your help. I am saving all the idea and advices that I can get. I realize already that a month will be to short to accomplish a good foundation for a strong recovery. Seems like 3 months will be the perfect time frame. Two years is a long, long time, too long, then the individual will have hard time to adapt to our crazy world. I wil be using some powerful tools for change and in a couple of month you can have somebody fully motivated.Like a lion !!!.  One thing too, toward the end of the seminar
( I don’t like the word rehab ) each participant should know how to administrate Ibogaine and to take care of somebody else.
They don’t have to feel like patients anymore but like healers.In my humble opinion, this is very important. In Africa, specialy on the East coast , or for esample in Cuba, the patient is initiated step by step to be himself a healer. If your social role is to cure, you are not anymore a patient. That is something I realy hated from AA/NA : ” my name is Tom I am an addict or alcoholic. Here we create and maintain a problem of identity. Even a full blown alcoholic in his last days of drinking, is a man who had an allergy to alcohol. and have a problem with the substance. I mean, that how I feel.Why to put a label on somebody ?

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, I’m sorry if I came across as a smart ass with my reply to you, I guess I was feeling funny at the time. Anyway, I can see that your serious about this, and what you said about your place sounds a lot like the one a very good friend of mine and I were talking about starting in Kentucky. I feel very grateful that my friend would think enough of me to want to include me in even planning such a place. This guy has credentials in addiction and recovery and he is as serious as a heart attack about doing something like what you are talking about. I was in a residential treatment program for two and a half years. We ran the place. Everyone had a job and you had to do well to move up and get out of there. It changed me for the better but, way too many rules, and it took way to long to complete. I think some kind of 3 month program would be just about right. Get them Ibogaine treatment legally wherever, and then get them in the program and help them with sleep issues and the feelings that pop up during the first 2 weeks. Computers, musical instruments, all kinds of self help books and philosophy books, putting green, trails, deer observation stands in the woods, I could go on but, you get my meaning. BI weekly therapy for the first month and then weekly, someone available for stress issues at any time. We’ve talked about this at length and we both think that this will really help some people. At the end of this program we would try and help them on the path that they choose. I think the biggest thing would to be flexible and open minded. Now all we need is for Ibogaine to be legal and the cost would come down hugely for everyone involved.         Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 2:36:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, dude, I have to say something here. You ever hear of Wounded Knee. Native Americans have been getting fucked ever since we came here. I don’t think that they are really treated any better now then they were then. Seems like Native Americans have quietly gathered forces on their own and put effort into getting gambling and other things on the reservation. (I hate that word, why call something that was theirs in the first place a reservation) I hope they get every dime they have coming to them. TWICE. Anyway, what you are talking about would be great but, Gays, Non whites, wise asses, whatever, are in the work force and some of them are influential. Not many addicts can even admit they are addicted and keep the job they have. How in the hell is anyone supposed to rally forces when they can’t even keep a job to pay bills with? We live on the edge of society cause nobody wants to deal with us. It hits too close to home and everyone else’s habits. Better to just shun us and keep us down. Does society really want to take an honest look at addiction and see all the skeletons in just about every family? Not just NO, but, FUCK NO.    Randy

From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 2:05:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, don’t you think all the promotion for the war on drugs is another reason that discrimination against drug users continues? It’s hard to convince people to see drug users in a different light when the media all around them is infested with propaganda against drugs. Also, a majority of drug users themselves listen to what is being said about them and decide that they have a ‘disease’ that needs to be cured, and further promote the idea that drug users should be treated differently until they get ‘back to their senses’. When you become convinced that they are right, you generally don’t put up a fight. You also bring up the idea that things have changed for gays, but when I look around, I don’t see a lot of progressive change. Measures just passed making it illegal for gays to marry in many states, and I hear the word ‘fag’ used as a derogatory term on a regular basis.

In relation to some of your earlier posts, you always bring up your opinion that heroin represses feelings, and that may be true for some people, but for me personally, it was different. There were many details of my past that I never thought about until I did heroin. I didn’t even know I was running from these past events until I found myself thinking about them while high. Heroin actually relaxed me to the point where I could mentally bring issues up and think about them without having my defense mechanisms block the thoughts. This obviously is not the case for all people, but it actually helped me in a way. It would be pointless for me to continue to keep taking heroin for that reason, because it has served it’s purpose in that area, but it did help. Did you ever read Diary of a Drug Fiend? I know it’s probably somewhat of a cliche to bring this book up, but I read it a long time ago, and, if I remember correctly, Crowley brought up the point that drugs can be used to obtain certain goals, and this is not bad or evil, but it can be bad when drugs are keeping you from what YOUR purpose is (not a purpose that someone else has decided for you, mind you). If I am totally misconstruing the book, I’m sorry, it’s been awhile, but that’s what I remember. I do understand what you mean about some people using opiates to run from feelings, as I have seen this myself, but substances don’t act the same on everyone, and I truly think that some people get something from opiates that benefits them.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, Sara Glatt < sara119@xs4all.nl > wrote:

From: Sara Glatt [mailto: sara119@xs4all.nl]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:12 +0100
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

> —–Original Message—–
> From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
> Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
>
>
> Dear Francis,
>
> First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
> term?
>
> As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
> we can go
> back
> in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
> experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
> individual but, how
> they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how
> one may be viewed
> and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my
> mind the
> harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
> conventions that
> mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
> t hen further
> defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
> punishable by long
> prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
> not only tracked
> by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
> drugs in
> order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
> resulted in
> greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
> stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
> significantly increase the
> psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
> simply to create
> an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
> and makes
> worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
> users in society
> in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
> in states
> where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
> terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
> that I have heralded
> ibogaine for so much of my life.
>
> Howard
>

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: <shamaness@adelphia.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogainepleezletgo
Date: February 17, 2005 at 1:58:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>MORE FUN!
>LESS STUFF!
>MAKE ART*
>NOT WAR :(
>LUV -
>NOT
>SUV!

zz

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:52:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 18:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

What about those who are using cocaine and have a very high political
position in the German parliament ?, in the Dutch parliament there is a lot
of alcohol boozin’ and it is very accepted, and Benzo is accepted too,
Sex addiction is accepted too. The only addictions who you could get
discriminated for are the illegal drug, it is not about how harmful drugs
are but what is legal and what’s not.

sara

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:37:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 17:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as
we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how
one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my
mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and
conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and
then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and
punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are
not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of
drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has
resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to
significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more
simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates
and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing
users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews
in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system
that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

Hi Howard,

For certain, in our society, addicts are subject to massive levels of
discrimination on the basis of their habit. What I find interesting is the
way that other groups who have suffered this in the past have managed to
make some changes whilst the plight of addicts seems to remain pretty much
the same. Gays, racial minorities, and others have all successfully
petitioned media and government for meaningful changes in how they are
portrayed socially and represented legally. Yet in comparison, for addicts,
little has happened.

Maybe addicts will think it’s a discriminatory stance, but for me I think
the difference is in the attitude of those suffering prejudice. Things
changed for gays when gays got active, for Indians when Indians got active.
I don’t think so much happened when they relied on the good intentions of
those in society not actually suffering the discrimination. I don’t think
addicts have had so much success here. For me, the issue is the nature of
the substance they’re addicted to. Suffering discrimination for the use of a
drug which represses feelings means it can be difficult to be sufficiently
empowered to do anything about the discrimination. Little changes for
addicts legally and in public attitudes because the nature of our society,
and our psychology, dictates that you have to get up, in sufficient numbers,
and fight for change.

Nick

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:07:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Not sure about the States, but there ARE 21 day
methadone programs, but it seems most doctors/patients
shy away from them, as MAINTENANCE seems to be the
standard here in Toronto.  This is probably because,
like Martee said, the 21 day program is a joke, and
most people end up hooked on methadone.

I have never met anyone who has used a 21 day
methadone reduction program with success.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 11:49:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard
I was on a 21 day methadone “de-tox” at Bridge Plaza Clinic here in nyc (queens) many years ago. they started at 40mg’s and went down to 5 mg’s over 21 days…of course within 3-4 days of being cut loose I was hurting  badly ( iwas never really comfortable the entire few weeks)….they also had a 6 mo taper detox but again cut you loose at 5mg’s. That was a disaster for me as well imo they were insane to think someone could go from 5 mg’s and then to 0 on their own…. they would tell you to take some nyquil if you needed relief from the residual w/d’s.
when i went on the methadone program i was to be on for 10 years till 3 mos ago(!) they were a “maintenance” program and dosed high and never expected you to leave…when Mayor G came to power and welfare reform started they changed to a “methadone to abstinence” clinic (their words) and though they didn’t pressure me a lot they did  more than before and many others as well. They also put into place a ton of new rules about working and forced non-working patients to attend groups and all sorts of things ( i have always worked so do not know much about that but saw all the schedules and signs about them at the clinic)i am sure they would not have made me taper but they always suggested it whereas before they never even brought it up.When they did discuss tapering they said they will taper you down slowly as you like to 1 mg which I think is a much more realistic …
see  ya saturday
Jeff

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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 10:20:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Martee,
I tried the 3 day methadone trick a few years ago and was still having withdrawals, and that’s when I talked to some doctor in a clinic who explained why it wouldn’t work. But, maybe they just wanted me to get on MMT instead of trying it again and possibly succeeding and therefore losing that 80 bucks a week. Of course, I was also in no way ‘really’ wanting to stop, so that could have something to do with it not working.
Laura

— On Thu 02/17, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:15:50 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Laura,
I never thought that to be the case. I never experienced that to be
the case. The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because
you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin
withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium.
Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know
that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to
addict you to methedone. Will the person who successfully walked away from
a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!! Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a
whole lot. Same with 2mgs! Needless to say once you are addicted to
methedone this does not apply.
This method is for the physical aspect only! But it beats the hell out
of some of the other options. The cravings were always there, but I believe
it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were
not physically motivated.
Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep
you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if
you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to
detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are
actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of
methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all
my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used
again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it
works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you
have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will
hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.
By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may
be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re
using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are
definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly
known thing? Just a thought.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted
to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the
easiest most painless way to get off heroin wi thout becoming an addicted to
another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but
the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me
personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and
provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:11:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Martee
So Day 1 no H, enough meth to make me feel ok, then day 2 cut it in half, and day 3 cut dose in half again???? for example: day 1:80mls, day 2:40mls day 3:20mls day 4: nothing?  Is this what you mean????? if so is it not hurrendous on day 4, 5 and 6????
love Donna
ps: I really appreciate all your advice, thank you so muchxxxxxxxxxx

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:07:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Martee

I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the gear!!!!.  I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, i’ll keep you posted

love donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 9:03:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee

I did not know you could do that with the meth, I always thought I would have to wean myself off the meth!!! which is worse than coming off the gear!!!!.  I have not ruled the ibogaine out& would love to do it that way, i’ll keep you posted

love donna

From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 8:34:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard,
The methedone clinics that I’ve been aware of from NY to Calif. all offered a 21 day detox where you start at35mg for 1or 2 days go to 40 for 3or 4 days and then they take you down until on day 21 you are either on 5mgs because that is the lowest they can go with the form of methedone they use, or 2 mg if it is liquid.  As far as whatever works is ok, I agree, however, this doesn’t work even without considering the aspect that it’s only physical and one would still use.  It does work for them as it addicts you to methedone.  I’ve always seen this as the drug co’s hook!  I used to bounce back and forth from one clinic to the next doing stints on their 21 days because you had to wait a few weeks to do it again.  In california at that time 10.00 per day to have a place to get a dose to get well just helped me function better as a junkie if I needed it.
As far as being left at 5 mgs, people think it is such a relatively small number especially for someone that’s been dosed on 80 or over 100, you go through worse withdrawl off of 5mg that what you were trying to avoid in the first place.  I remember my first awareness of methedone was in the late 60’s.  They were little white pills and 5mgs each.  I recall one of these maybe 2 would completely get you well.  And the drugs were very potent back then if I recall correctly. This is another reason why I think the high doses just give you a tolerance and then they increase you.  All the years I was on the methedone maintainance the only time my dose would not hold me was when I was taking someother thing in the narcotic or pill world to get high.  It would eat up the methedone in my system and leave me really sick the next day.  Once during an extended hospitalization the antibiotics did this and I requested my dose broke up into 4xper day instead of once.  Once you’re sick it takes 3 days to get your dose adjusted back to your system.
I really thought all this stuff was in the junkie handbook and was common knowledge.  I don’t usually like to do the junkie rant thing, but you asked.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee,

I think that methadone can be used in various short term regimens to
significantly reduce opioid withdrawal.  What you have is cross tolerance to opioids,
going from heroin to methadone rather than “addiction” to one opioid for
another.   I am also not sure what you mean by a 21 day methadone taper? (my
words)  I was aware of 21 day inhospital programs where methadone and other
medications would be provided for the first seven days and then continuation of
sleeping medication or other adjunct medications until discharge.  If you stayed
for the entire program you would be 14 days off methadone.  Are there programs
where methadone is supplied for 21 days?  Probably so in this world and nothing
wrong with that but, can you or others following this thread provide
information on opioid reduction therapies/regimens you are aware of? Thanks. And,
anything that works is OK.

Howard

In a message dated 2/17/05 12:16:19 AM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:

<< Laura,

I never thought that to be the case.  I never experienced that to be

the case.  The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because

you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin

withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium.

Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know

that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to

addict you to methedone.  Will the person who successfully walked away from

a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!!  Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a

whole lot.  Same with 2mgs!   Needless to say once you are addicted to

methedone this does not apply.

This method is for the physical aspect only!  But it beats the hell out

of some of the other options.  The cravings were always there, but I believe

it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were

not physically motivated.

Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep

you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if

you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to

detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are

actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).

Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,

If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of

methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all

my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used

again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it

works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you

have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will

hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.

By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may

be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re

using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are

definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly

known thing? Just a thought.

Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted

to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the

easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to

another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but

the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me

personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and

provider hope this answers your question.

Take care

Love Donna >>

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:38:46 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s the same as the judgments, it’s making use of the Blacks and
the Whites, not just the greys. The mind has the power to distinguish for a
purpose, and it’s good.<

i find beauty in the blacks, whites AND greys Nick.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:33 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 20:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

I wrote >And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations
at opiate
users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each
and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.<

I must admit I didn’t know about the brother until I finished reading
Carla’s note, which I hadn’t done when firing off the last note.
It doesn’t
really change much, but it does give me personally more insight
to where you
might be coming from Nick. I did not know about your brother, and yes, I
imagine it might be rough to see a loved one go through what you
think is a
really bad space (and under current prohibition policies quite often is a
really bad space). But love instead of judgement I bet would be more
effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he
asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life”
(not that
you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway,
have a day all.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

Love vs Judgement. OK. Do some encounter groups, man, you’re gonna see that
they’re actually the same thing. I mean this. Really.

As to rehab, and a closely related thread. My position is that there’s no
easy answer to addiction, but that the easy answers are most definitely
useful. It’s the same as the judgments, it’s making use of the Blacks and
the Whites, not just the greys. The mind has the power to distinguish for a
purpose, and it’s good.

Nick

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:28:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

no, not that I know of, but don’t hold me to that.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Is it like Subutex???????????????

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:24:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and I think it’s spelled dilaudid.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:24:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

its what I’m prescribed for pain actually, along with morphine sulphate.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Hi
What is diladid????????

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 7:19:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I kicked dope by using methadon in London for a few days, just three or four, but that was it. and got off a fairly large habit (at least for a month or two before picking back up again), with little to no pain, substituting methadone for heroin.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:38:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 21:28
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny. I appreciate
your manners Preston. I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you
ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope
that shit
is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference. Otherwise it
just becomes preaching to the choir. It would be nice to have you guys go
somewhere with this all. Perhaps we are. No reason to yell.

A commune? Nick, for some reason that slipped my mind… Isn’t it
tough to
keep strident ideals in a community of individuals?

Hi Steve,

Yes, we don’t have them. The resolution of conflicts is the core of
community.

Isn’t there always a
conflict between the good of the group and the needs and freedoms of the
individual? Compromise is needed, correct?

The sequence is Encounter – you put all your negative judgments out face to
face, totally. Emotional Release – you just scream it out face to face.
Love – you hug and put out positive judgments. If this doesn’t resolve the
conflicts then, yes, you compromise. It’s meaningless to compromise without
the process. You’re just giving up power without gaining awareness and this
just leads to resentment and schizm in the group.

Nick

Taste and color are
different for
all. The most oppressive time of my life was when I was at a commune type
farm with all these well-intentioned Quaker hippies. They knew what was
best. Peace, love and vegetarianism. I couldn’t stop myself from eating
giant steaks and sharing cheerful and inspiring excerpts from
‘Mein Kampf.’
Just my nature I guess. On the other hand I feel the best
community/society
is a village, so go figure.

A little pop psychology stab in the dark – Nick, is your view of
addiction
and addicts colored by your experience with your brother? The
hardest thing
in the world is to see someone you love hurt themselves.

Peace out,
Steve.

PS: Carla, a darn good talk show indeed… or perhaps a ‘reality’
show. What
a cast of characters. Put ’em on a desert island, throw in a bikini clad
temptress to stir it up and bingo! Nick does dope, Dana and Peter do ibo,
and poor Preston misses V terribly. Or maybe Dr. Phil could help. Jerry
Springer anyone? Just kidding…

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:33:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 20:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

I wrote >And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations
at opiate
users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each
and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.<

I must admit I didn’t know about the brother until I finished reading
Carla’s note, which I hadn’t done when firing off the last note.
It doesn’t
really change much, but it does give me personally more insight
to where you
might be coming from Nick. I did not know about your brother, and yes, I
imagine it might be rough to see a loved one go through what you
think is a
really bad space (and under current prohibition policies quite often is a
really bad space). But love instead of judgement I bet would be more
effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he
asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life”
(not that
you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway,
have a day all.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

Love vs Judgement. OK. Do some encounter groups, man, you’re gonna see that
they’re actually the same thing. I mean this. Really.

As to rehab, and a closely related thread. My position is that there’s no
easy answer to addiction, but that the easy answers are most definitely
useful. It’s the same as the judgments, it’s making use of the Blacks and
the Whites, not just the greys. The mind has the power to distinguish for a
purpose, and it’s good.

Nick

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:26:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 19:43
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

Carla wrote >I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)<
—–

http://www.surgical-tutor.org.uk/default-home.htm?surgeons/halstea
d.htm~right

William Halstead (1852-1922)
—–

To be honest Steven, I don’t know why we (Nick and I) can’t continue
debating online. I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Oh go on, Preston, you know you want to really. I mean, I can’t read all
this stuff, man. I have work to do. I can’t just argue endlessly anymore.
Used to be able to, don’t know what happened.

Nick

It’s an honest
disagreement, and while I myself am really bent out of shape over what I
percieve as his descrimination towards opiate users, along with all his
blanket assertions about opiate users’ lives being boring, I still favor
“peace and love” as opposed to “screw you.” (Though, yes, I’ll admit,
there’ve been a few times now when yes, that’s a more honest spur of the
moment feeling, but I try to resist that as much as possible, as
it usually
merely exacerbates the heated disagreement and rarely brings anyone to my
point of view. Not that I always succeed at resisting, but I do try.)

But I’m not about to pay a phone bill to England just to debate
this issue
with Nick on the phone, nor do I particularly feel like
discussing it on the
phone regardless of makes the call or who’s paying the bill.
I’m a writer and reader, so why not write it out Nick?
Explain it to me
(and us) here so it doesn’t sound like you’re looking down on poor, still
addled(?) opiate users, please, or don’t if you don’t want to,
it’s all ok
with me. But I don’t really see a reason to pick up the phone for
this Nick,
it’s a public disagreement I don’t feel like taking to the
private realm at
this point. No offense, but I don’t want to.
And of course, each time I feel like disagreeing with you
onlist I will
continue to do so. I hope that doesn’t stop you from voicing your views
here, as it gives me food for thought, even as strongly as I
disagree with
you.
You never-been-a-junkie you.
And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at
opiate users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each
and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice
to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.
That means committing actual crimes for your information btw, like
breaking and entering, armed robbery, drunk/doped driving, etc.
Egad, I’ve ranted again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:24:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 18:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

But, baby, I’ve lived in this real world and it’s dull, dull, dull. Well,
not all the time but I’ve just got too much energy for the whole 9-5 deal
these days. Yes, I could take heroin to deal with that, but I thought I’d
try another option. Gay? Well, a bit, but not so much, still get this
occasional thing for cute bald guys but I don’t follow it up. Don’t have a
family, it’s true, but in community it’s like a big family. I do go through
mindfucks about having kids or not still, but my girlfriend has already got
a couple and doesn’t want more. I could leave her but I just love her too
much. You see my predicament?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Let’s do it!

love

Nick

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces dont work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a Peace and love?
Wouldnt Screw you Nick be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:20:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis, I’m sorry if I came across as a smart ass with my reply to you, I guess I was feeling funny at the time. Anyway, I can see that your serious about this, and what you said about your place sounds a lot like the one a very good friend of mine and I were talking about starting in Kentucky. I feel very grateful that my friend would think enough of me to want to include me in even planning such a place. This guy has credentials in addiction and recovery and he is as serious as a heart attack about doing something like what you are talking about. I was in a residential treatment program for two and a half years. We ran the place. Everyone had a job and you had to do well to move up and get out of there. It changed me for the better but, way too many rules, and it took way to long to complete. I think some kind of 3 month program would be just about right. Get them Ibogaine treatment legally wherever, and then get them in the program and help them with sleep issues and the feelings that pop up during the first 2 weeks. Computers, musical instruments, all kinds of self help books and philosophy books, putting green, trails, deer observation stands in the woods, I could go on but, you get my meaning. BI weekly therapy for the first month and then weekly, someone available for stress issues at any time. We’ve talked about this at length and we both think that this will really help some people. At the end of this program we would try and help them on the path that they choose. I think the biggest thing would to be flexible and open minded. Now all we need is for Ibogaine to be legal and the cost would come down hugely for everyone involved.         Randy

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 17, 2005 at 5:16:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Sent: 15 February 2005 18:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the delightful back
and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right for you. Don’t
we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Hey Steve,

Well, personally I’m cool with judging. God judges the world through our
minds, that’s my take. And, I figure, if you’re going to take the stand and
judge you also have to listen to feedback. Which I do, I might not always
change my mind but I do listen.

As to the road to hell, well, Halleluliah actually means “Hell lights the
way to God.” [Halle Lu Lee Yah] Thought you would have known that one!

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really great drug, I
mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and actually
accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been known to taste,
get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s such a great
thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that in order to
really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK, then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad ideas can
become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad always seems
to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative. Yes, we all
want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not causing harm?

Well, I’d certainly considering getting hooked for a couple of years, I’m
not against in principle. I’d have to undergo a bit of a radical lifestyle
change, specially since I went to all the trouble to move away from Soho and
then Kings X a couple of years back, and it would be tricky with my girl and
stuff, but I’m not against the idea.

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and stubborn group
of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well. They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if you don’t quit”
works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and it’s a good
kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about quitting,
yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because it does fix
your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not for
everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by aliens during
their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few times, always
goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him a sacred duty
to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull hammer, but what
the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear about your
girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick with a “Peace
and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Yeah, well, I’ve ended rants with Love so we’re probably equal in that.

Love

Nick

Peace and Love,
Steve

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 4:44:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, I got started on Methadone in a 21 day taper program. I had 2 major colon surgeries in 85 and with the DR’s dope and what I got myself I had to do something about my addiction. I can’t remember the doses, but I started out getting a slight buzz on the first dose, so instantly I thought, this is cool. They took me up to 40 mg’s pretty fast. I think the thought at the time was that 40 mg’s was the blocking dose. When I started going down I didn’t really notice at first, but soon I started to panic. I think at the point of 25 mgs or so, I went to the Dr. and requested to be on maintenance, and I was in.        Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 3:34:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee,

I think that methadone can be used in various short term regimens to
significantly reduce opioid withdrawal.  What you have is cross tolerance to opioids,
going from heroin to methadone rather than “addiction” to one opioid for
another.   I am also not sure what you mean by a 21 day methadone taper?  (my
words)  I was aware of 21 day inhospital programs where methadone and other
medications would be provided for the first seven days and then continuation of
sleeping medication or other adjunct medications until discharge.  If you stayed
for the entire program you would be 14 days off methadone.  Are there programs
where methadone is supplied for 21 days?  Probably so in this world and nothing
wrong with that but, can you or others following this thread provide
information on opioid reduction therapies/regimens you are aware of?  Thanks. And,
anything that works is OK.

Howard

In a message dated 2/17/05 12:16:19 AM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:

<< Laura,

I never thought that to be the case.  I never experienced that to be

the case.  The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because

you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin

withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium.

Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know

that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to

addict you to methedone.  Will the person who successfully walked away from

a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!!  Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a

whole lot.  Same with 2mgs!   Needless to say once you are addicted to

methedone this does not apply.

This method is for the physical aspect only!  But it beats the hell out

of some of the other options.  The cravings were always there, but I believe

it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were

not physically motivated.

Martee

—– Original Message —–

From: thethird@myway.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep

you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if

you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to

detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are

actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).

Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,

If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of

methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all

my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used

again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it

works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you

have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will

hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.

By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may

be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re

using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are

definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly

known thing? Just a thought.

Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted

to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the

easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to

another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but

the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me

personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and

provider hope this answers your question.

Take care

Love Donna >>

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:39:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis,
Sounds lovely.  Were I there after my session It would have been at leat 3 weeks before I could even consider taking part in any of these activities other than meditation, 3 meals and talk.  Ibogaine kicked my ass!!  But I feel the necesity of having physical activities that are rewarding and meaningful and can be continued when they leave are very important. The activities that they can’t take home to do can show them what else you can do with your money and time when you have goals or wants other than drugs.  So is a better understanding of how to handle crisis, as well as everyday stresses without being medicated. Nutrition on an individual basis.There are some basics in nutrition that work well across the board, However again it’s not overwhelming people to go from a-z when a-c at least puts them on the right track.  Learning to rely on ones self, trust ones self and love ones self.  All empowerment. I believe these things can be relayed in a gentle manner without shoving well intentions on people that have a wall against others dogma.   What I meant exactly about where you were before will depend on what you need after has a lot to do with what peoples knowledge and capabilities are to begin with, how open is their mind, or not, and to find things that they need and will work within perameters they can find acceptable.  What I’m referring to is probably more in the fine tuning aspect but I feel still very relevant.
I also feel a certain amount of before care could have a big impact on the outcome as well.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Martee !!
Thank you for your answer. I think that I read somewhere that the success rate of Ibogaine in long term was about 15 %.
So it’s seems to me that the after care is the most important part of the recovery. What I am trying to find is what will be the best for after care. I have my idea on the subject but I want to check what are the real needs for the individual by asking the addicts who already took Ibogaine what will work.
I am thinking for esample of a minimum of a month of after care in a very beautiful but very rustic environment in some tropical paradise, on the beach . Kind of the first Club Med in Sicily that was designed with no luxury for divers . Martial art, meditation , yoga, archery, diving, snorkling, fishing, motivational talk, three meals, will be provided. The cost should be minimal, but the persone in recovery should be require a minimum of four hours light work following is abilities . This small farm should include, a medecinal garden and some animals. No radio, no  TV, no news,  discussions on politics and religions ( that was the only rules of the Club Med 🙂 because the man who create the club  didn’t want to divide people.
What do you think ?
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: m.finman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 17, 2005 at 12:15:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Laura,
I never thought that to be the case.  I never experienced that to be the case.  The thing with doing the methedone for only 3-4 days is because you are NOT YET ADDICTED to it in that period of time yet the heroin withdrawl is either finished or tolerable with a few puffs or a valium. Because I know this to be a fact for me anyway, is one of the reasons I know that 21 day detox methedone progrms are not to get you off of dope but to addict you to methedone.  Will the person who successfully walked away from a 21 day detox PLEASE stand up!!!  Anyone left off at 5mgs go through a whole lot.  Same with 2mgs!   Needless to say once you are addicted to methedone this does not apply.
This method is for the physical aspect only!  But it beats the hell out of some of the other options.  The cravings were always there, but I believe it was more a desire to continuing to medicate my world. The cravings were not physically motivated.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee

—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com

To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: and nutrition
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:47:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you very much for your help, I could feel , reading your E-mail what
it can be to fight this disease,. ………

In your E-Mail at one point you wrote :

But I have no doubt that what I learned in NA
planted the seeds for Panic/anxiety stuff.  After 3
years, I decided I wanted to smoke weed.  I felt SO
guilty after taking a puff that I wigged out,

Panic anxiety can have two origins : psycological or
physiological. I am telling you this because I had to go throught this shit
for more than a year. This use to drive me nuts, suicidal. Not only I had
panic attack but on top of it i started to had phobias 🙂 In fact I started
to medicate with alcohol when it was too much , and started to study NLP to
get rid of all this .
The results was that I graduate in both 🙂 Alcohol and NLP.   to make a
story short.
Several years later I read this book by Joan Mattews Larsen ” Seven
Weeks to Sobriety ”  and I found out that I was on the complete wrong diet
for an addict or alcoholic.
I was fucking up my adrenals glands with :
Carbohydrate. White sugar, coffe, pasta, pizza, junk food, ice cream and
alcohol. and …. stress.social pressure ect
. The adrenals glands control the fight-flight response . No wonder, I had
anxiety, panic, fears ect…… 🙂
Not only this, but by eating this type of ” food ” you keep the craving
alive. I ‘ve seen guys 20 years clean in AA who still crave to use .Maybee
the source of your disconfort is there ?/! Let me know 🙂
In my humble opinion, nutrition is a key player in recovery. Of course, you
can’t said this in the rooms 🙂
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

It probably is.  Or at least it can be classified as
compulsive or brainwashing or hypnosis or as Habit in
and of itself.  But this doesn’t mean it can’t be
positive too…depends what compare it to I guess, as
well as a persons ability to see ‘sims instead of
diffs’…

What really surprises me is Twice in last Couple of
Days, I’ll out of nowhere get this really really
potent smell of tar in a spoon, not even thinking
about it. I’ll be thinking of stuff totally different
and ununrelated then all of a sudden ALL MY ATTENTION
is focused on the fact the last breath I took smells
like burroughs tainted cheese.

It’s all so very silly…

The transition from ‘rehab’ to Now can be tricky.
But Rehab and Treatment are very subjective terms, as
is almost every other term used in ‘the field of
addiction’.

From what I can tell, some only say, “you need
meetings, because aftercare is important.”

This might work for the majority or some, but for
me, I already knew all that stuff, hell, I grew up in
that system for 3 years “successfully”.

But I have no doubt that what I learned in NA
planted the seeds for Panic/anxiety stuff.  After 3
years, I decided I wanted to smoke weed.  I felt SO
guilty after taking a puff that I wigged out,

then Everything went
Animated and CaCartoony

and Things that I prpreviouslyOVED,
freaked me out
like I was injected with fear.

That reaction soon lead me to my Love for Opiates.
I don’t see the benifit in treating all drugs the
same, except perhaps to focus on a common compulsion.
So for me, after Ibo, 90 meetings in 90 days wasn’t
going to do anything new ,for me,.  Whole lotta peeps
get good stuff out of it though, so why not.

Afterward, My issues were Legal, Financial, and
trying to Locate Contact information for Social
Services that might be able to help because I was/am
not in a postion to take very seriouslly any
opportuties for help I could find.
My ‘ibo aftercare’ sucked ass at that.
If the response is: go get a social worker…
Yeah, well 2 seconds ago you knew what was best for
me with some cookie cutter suggestion of 90 in 90.  If
you really gave a f*ck about the people you were
treating instead of adding another “I’ve treated X
number of people” maybe you could like point me in the
right direction to what the current situation
requires.  A link, hell even just some search word
suggestions.  ‘Sorry too busy treating new people.’
Well whatever, hope that works out for you.

Some % of ‘junkies’ ‘addicts’ have not very
developed Social Skills.  The substance can be used to
create distance as a defense memech Smoking Tobacco is
used this way allot in social situations I think.

So having an updated *list of Social Services
(education mentor, vocational mentor, what is the plan
for making new Friends etc. (not that old friends have
to go, but at least balance them out a bit, because I
am very aware that those I surround myself with effect
in part my woworldview

*list of Counseling services available

*Creating a 5-10 year vision of where want to be, then
steps and decimal points of how to try to get there.
Try to leave room to adapt to stay flexible with
Change.

Focusing intention before the Ibo session can help
too I think.

Damn this is long.  Sorry about that.

-J

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 9:47:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It probably is.  Or at least it can be classified as
compulsive or brainwashing or hypnosis or as Habit in
and of itself.  But this doesn’t mean it can’t be
positive too…depends what compare it to I guess, as
well as a persons ability to see ‘sims instead of
diffs’…

What really surprises me is Twice in last Couple of
Days, I’ll out of nowhere get this really really
potent smell of tar in a spoon, not even thinking
about it. I’ll be thinking of stuff totally different
and ununrelated then all of a sudden ALL MY ATTENTION
is focused on the fact the last breath I took smells
like burroughs tainted cheese.

It’s all so very silly…

The transition from ‘rehab’ to Now can be tricky.
But Rehab and Treatment are very subjective terms, as
is almost every other term used in ‘the field of
addiction’.

From what I can tell, some only say, “you need
meetings, because aftercare is important.”

This might work for the majority or some, but for
me, I already knew all that stuff, hell, I grew up in
that system for 3 years “successfully”.

But I have no doubt that what I learned in NA
planted the seeds for Panic/anxiety stuff.  After 3
years, I decided I wanted to smoke weed.  I felt SO
guilty after taking a puff that I wigged out,

then Everything went
Animated and CaCartoony

and Things that I prpreviouslyOVED,
freaked me out
like I was injected with fear.

That reaction soon lead me to my Love for Opiates.
I don’t see the benifit in treating all drugs the
same, except perhaps to focus on a common compulsion.
So for me, after Ibo, 90 meetings in 90 days wasn’t
going to do anything new ,for me,.  Whole lotta peeps
get good stuff out of it though, so why not.

Afterward, My issues were Legal, Financial, and
trying to Locate Contact information for Social
Services that might be able to help because I was/am
not in a postion to take very seriouslly any
opportuties for help I could find.
My ‘ibo aftercare’ sucked ass at that.
If the response is: go get a social worker…
Yeah, well 2 seconds ago you knew what was best for
me with some cookie cutter suggestion of 90 in 90.  If
you really gave a f*ck about the people you were
treating instead of adding another “I’ve treated X
number of people” maybe you could like point me in the
right direction to what the current situation
requires.  A link, hell even just some search word
suggestions.  ‘Sorry too busy treating new people.’
Well whatever, hope that works out for you.

Some % of ‘junkies’ ‘addicts’ have not very
developed Social Skills.  The substance can be used to
create distance as a defense memech Smoking Tobacco is
used this way allot in social situations I think.

So having an updated *list of Social Services
(education mentor, vocational mentor, what is the plan
for making new Friends etc. (not that old friends have
to go, but at least balance them out a bit, because I
am very aware that those I surround myself with effect
in part my woworldview

*list of Counseling services available

*Creating a 5-10 year vision of where want to be, then
steps and decimal points of how to try to get there.
Try to leave room to adapt to stay flexible with
Change.

Focusing intention before the Ibo session can help
too I think.

Damn this is long.  Sorry about that.

-J

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Don’t be disheartened(no reason)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:12:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen and  Julie.
For the 15 % , I am not sure, I think I read this in the Ibogaine Dossier
in an interview with Lotsoff. If I remember he was talking about long term
.In the short term I guess is 100% .
I will try to find more about this number tonight in the Dossier.
Don’t be disheartened,  I think Lotsoof was telling that some people have
to take it two or three time before complete sobriety. This make sens,
because sometime an addict relapse because is feeling realy good or realy
bad and can’t believe that he  will be hooked one more time . That was my
classical relapse pattern 🙂 The “just one “, to see if the result was
different  !!
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Don’t be disheartened(no reason)

I agree with Julie.I am also doing well as far as being clean goes.
Even with things around me seeming to fall apart,losing my car,
not much work coming in and plenty of other sh*t I am still
strong.

I cannot see how the success rate could only be 15%,..that
would be very disheartening to read indeed.I am not an expert
like some others on the list however I would think it would be
at least 65%.

If I can stay straight through all the crap that has happened
after being addicted for over 20 years with Ibogaine,if Randy
can do it after over 20 years and others on the list then you
can do it Donna. Ther is no reason to be disheartened,the hope
you saw is still there,..probably more than you know.

It’s that good.

Love,
Jasen.

Francis and Donna,

I would say the success rate with Ibo for people WHO
ACTUALLY WANT TO QUIT AND ARE NOT JUST PAYING
LIPSERVICE TO FAMILY/FRIENDS would be around 65-100%.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me secondary
withdrawal symptoms were a killer, with depression
ranking as the #1 reason why I would relapse.

I didn’t get the depression post-Ibo, and this is why
I think I’m still clean.  Ibo didn’t take away all the
symptoms of acute withdrawal, not even close.  And the
insomnia really gets to you after a while.  But still,
it’s the best detox aid I’ve ever found…

Julie

__________________________________________________
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 6:26:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

!0 % was in a conventional rehab run by Psychiatrists in the state of california. For AA and NA we don’t have any number. Is hard to guess. I think they are successful in the sense that it is like a tribe where you can go anywhere, anytime. I remember  a guy who lost is 18 years old daughter in a car crash. It was at Christmas and he was in vacation in Florida. He add a place to go where people where ready to understand his pain and eventualy abble to help him in his grief . His first reaction as an addict and alcoholic was to use, but he had a choice , a window of time to think. A group ready to share theirs experience with the death of a loved one. For this I still believe that the group is good, and can help a lot. Also because you can help another people too. That only my experience.If I am a bit sad or depressed, I go to a meeting and grab a cup of coffe. You have a lot of twisted people in the rooms but you can stick with the winners the one that are happy and free with a good sens of humor.
F

—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Francis

Thank you I think the answer is ibogaine to, Now to find the cash and a provider because it is easier to have the ibo straight from H rather than bup,  10% sucess rate on the 12 steps thats really low I was amazed, but then to read 15% sucess rate with ibo was really dis heartening.

with love Donna

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT n outa date!Francis-hermit quote
Date: February 16, 2005 at 6:08:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I know as ever I’m way out of date (1263 emails to go!) but this was just
the most perfect quote for me and I’m sure it won’t hurt to be repeated:

‘The hermit doesn’t sleep at night, in love with the blue of the vacant
moon.
The cool of the breeze that rustles the trees rustles him too.’

Thankyou Francis

All my love Hannah

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of subject Getting ancient

Thank you for your E-mail Vector I was just releasing my cave man anger
🙂
You are right I am getting older 🙂 even worst I am getting ancient…

I remember reading an ancient Grec philosopher complaining of the change
happening in the new generation and missing the good all time 🙂  I love
and use the I-ching ( the Book of Change )and they allways refers to an
ancient time when the world was perfect. Probably refering at more than
6.000 years BC when the first village where created around a wellspring.I
had the luck to live one year in the bush in Madagascar in small villages
like the ones  described in the “book of change ”
. This was actualy the best year of my life.No tv , no radio, no news, no
noise, no shoes, no stress but a lot of friendship and laughter 🙂

Here some sentences from the I-Ching

About creativity :
Creativity comes from awakening and directing men’s higher natures, which
originate in the primal depths of the uni- verse and are appointed by
Heaven.

About perseverance
One should act in consonance with the way of heaven and earth, which is
enduring and eternal. The superior man perseveres long in his course,
adapts
to the times, but remains firm in his direction and correct in his goals.

Advice ( are they talking about addiction and recovery  !/? )
Great effort is required to arrest decay and restore vigor. One must
exercise proper deliberation, plan carefully before making a move, and be
alert in guarding against relapse following a renaissance.

Hermit
The hermit doesn’t sleep at night, in love with the blue of the vacant
moon.
The cool of the breeze that rustles the trees rustles him too.
God Bless and a very happy new year !!
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of subject TV and violence

Francis I love reading your messages and most of the time I don’t have
any kind of reply to what you say but I enjoy reading it. In this one
message I think I can offer you a simple answer that I’m sure your son
with his vibrating razor will agree with. Maybe your just getting
older, older not old! 🙂 If you ever had the chance to talk to your dad
when you were growing up I’m sure he would have had the same thoughts
about the age you were growing up in and how things had change.

I don’t think anyone knows where they’re going, we are always going
there faster and everything keeps getting worse. That’s the same as
it’s ever been and some of it worries me and makes me think there will
be no future world, but cellphones, wireless and vibrating appliances
have never been anything I have thought about. Didn’t we always have
those? 😉

Happy new year!

.:vector:.
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi randy !
You are right : ” mankind keeps evolving faster and faster ”
.Maybee is what’s bothered me.
I am here with my simple reptilian brain, seeking pleasure mind,
wishing to get laid type of cave man brain, wondering how ro feed my

tribe type of man.
And I am discovering on my brand new ,already obsolete desktop
computer, that rich countries can now ,do micro surgical
bombing from
30.000 feets on civil populations.This world is going to fast for me
🙂
People work double time to buy speedy cars, fast micowave, wireless

phone that are suppose to save them time !! What’s the point of going

fast if we don’t know where we are going ?/! For me this is a
dis-ease,
and evil one because we don’t now we have it :-).
My son bought a hand razor with several blades like the old one he
had
from last year, but this one vibrate.. Everything have to vibrate
now,
the freaking materass, the beeper, the pager, the speakers, the
dildo
and the phone. Soon we will have freaking pans and pots that will
vibrate. I hopes I will be dead before I have to cook in the next
generation kitchen.!!
God Bless
Francis

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of subject TV and violence

Francis, you make some very good points in that post. There have been

alot of cultural changes since the 50’s when TV got into households
everywhere. That has to be taken into consideration when looking at
this. Sure TV has made a difference in the violence quota but it’s
made
a difference in sex and drugs and everything else too. Mankind keeps
evolving faster and faster and I hope that as we evolve we learn how
to
get where we want to go without hurting each other. Randy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A position
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:39:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

G’ day Angel,

Nice to hear from you.I sent you an email a couple of minutes ago concerning 15%.
I am doing pretty well. I feel like I need to leave the place I have lived in for the past
5 years, I also feel like selling everything I had before Ibogaine and making a real fresh start.

I feel like my house wants to spit me out,..like “you’ve finished here man,..time to move on.

Although I am still strong,..I am not comfortable in my home now or my surroundings,I have some
big decisions to make. I have had more pressure in the last 2 months than in tha last 2 years.

It’s like I am being taught to handle life’s pressures,challenges,and make big decisions whilst
haze free. It says,”can you handle it man?” and I say” f*ck yes I can handle it,..but settle down a bit ay.

Mmmm,..that’s life,…making choices and handling the consequences.

I wish you were in Australia as well,..I could look after you like a sister.That was the good thing
about Sara’s in Amsterdam,..I felt like I was with family.

I understand how you feel,…it’s almost over girl,..hang in there and believe in yourself,after all
you are an Angel.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position

Hi Jasen  Gday mate

How are you doin down under???????   I wish I lived in Oz so when I do the ibo you could be my sitter.  Hope you are well

Love Angel

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Don’t be disheartened(no reason)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:18:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I agree with Julie.I am also doing well as far as being clean goes.
Even with things around me seeming to fall apart,losing my car,
not much work coming in and plenty of other sh*t I am still
strong.

I cannot see how the success rate could only be 15%,..that
would be very disheartening to read indeed.I am not an expert
like some others on the list however I would think it would be
at least 65%.

If I can stay straight through all the crap that has happened
after being addicted for over 20 years with Ibogaine,if Randy
can do it after over 20 years and others on the list then you
can do it Donna. Ther is no reason to be disheartened,the hope
you saw is still there,..probably more than you know.

It’s that good.

Love,
Jasen.

Francis and Donna,

I would say the success rate with Ibo for people WHO
ACTUALLY WANT TO QUIT AND ARE NOT JUST PAYING
LIPSERVICE TO FAMILY/FRIENDS would be around 65-100%.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me secondary
withdrawal symptoms were a killer, with depression
ranking as the #1 reason why I would relapse.

I didn’t get the depression post-Ibo, and this is why
I think I’m still clean.  Ibo didn’t take away all the
symptoms of acute withdrawal, not even close.  And the
insomnia really gets to you after a while.  But still,
it’s the best detox aid I’ve ever found…

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:05:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Angel,

It is one of the strongest and nicest pain killers there is.
In my experience as close to heroin as you can get.

There is also omnapon,also a very strong pharm’ opiate.

Love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Amsterdam.
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:01:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Cindy,

I did the treatment with Sara in Amsterdam.
The treatment plus airfares will be less than 10,000
actually much less and the treatment was/is very
successfull.

Sara will pick you up from the airport and look after
you. All meals are included and it is not a clinical setting. Then you can check out Amsterdam.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: “Cindy Derida” <cindyderida@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:46 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

Could someone please tellme where I can get ibogaine
treatment or is the lady at the university for $10,500

Isthere any treatment still open besides the doctor
lady at miami for over 10000?

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] metha’ for 3 days
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:52:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey guys,

I understand what Martee is saying,..and it does work, My brother and I in the past have taken Methadone for 3 to 4 days to
get over the worst of the heroin withdrawels.I am not sure how it works,…it simply just does. We would normally have a big
first dose, enough to feel warm, then say…30 hours later have half the amount,then the third dose would be less than the second.

By the fourth day and the fifth you are over the worst of the withdrawel however if nothing has changed around you,such as moving away, having the same friends,ect ect,..then the chance of using again with in the next few days is very very high.

Love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:32:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It fine with me Donna, just phone me if you are in the Netherlands, 0346-241770,
I’m going to start a treatment tonight, but you can come and check it out.

Love,

Sara

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 22:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Hi Sara

I know you have answered some of my questions before and i am sorry to repeat them as you are probably very busy, after long chats with Jasen and reading the list I am looking to be treated with ibogaine to break my heroin addiction, I am desparate to do this and i have a supply of subutex, but is it true that ibogaine works better when using heroin rather than subutex?? do you still treat people? if so would you consider treating me? if so how long would the treatment last? and how much would it cost?.  Lee has offered to treat  me after easter, however you are nearer to me and you sound such a caring person  (im sure Lee is to)  I would love to meet you, there is a chance I may be in your area over the weekend, I would love to meet you, (i hope i am not being to forward its just from what Jasen has told me what a great, special person you are)  nevermind if we can not meet up it was just a thought.

love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:26:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is it like Subutex???????????????

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:24:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sara

I know you have answered some of my questions before and i am sorry to repeat them as you are probably very busy, after long chats with Jasen and reading the list I am looking to be treated with ibogaine to break my heroin addiction, I am desparate to do this and i have a supply of subutex, but is it true that ibogaine works better when using heroin rather than subutex?? do you still treat people? if so would you consider treating me? if so how long would the treatment last? and how much would it cost?.  Lee has offered to treat  me after easter, however you are nearer to me and you sound such a caring person  (im sure Lee is to)  I would love to meet you, there is a chance I may be in your area over the weekend, I would love to meet you, (i hope i am not being to forward its just from what Jasen has told me what a great, special person you are)  nevermind if we can not meet up it was just a thought.

love Donna

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:19:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i´m not sure about the receptors but the way martee describes it works fine for short h withdrawals, i did it a few times myself.
still the craving stays much longer than physical withdrawal, very different than with ibo. the metha-method doesn´t work for really bad withdrawals(2-3 weeks) i believe.

Am 16.02.2005 um 17:28 schrieb “” <thethird@myway.com>:

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:12:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

An synthetic opiate. .
Van: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 22:08
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house

dilaudid
Am 16.02.2005 um 19:54 schrieb AbbotAngel@aol.com:
Hi
What is diladid????????

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:11:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen  Gday mate

How are you doin down under???????   I wish I lived in Oz so when I do the ibo you could be my sitter.  Hope you are well

Love Angel

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 4:08:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dilaudid
Am 16.02.2005 um 19:54 schrieb AbbotAngel@aol.com:

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? – After Care
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:42:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Frances,

The whole question of aftercare is not really that complicated. Its quite intuitive. We make it complicated by our own insistence to carry on in the same old way attitude wise.

There is a price to be paid for recovery. Unless you are willing to pay it then you are basically heading towards being a statistic, i.e., someone who tried but it didn’t work.

Aftercare in one sense costs nothing if you go about it with the right attitude. Its not some mystical wand or formula you have to get right so that the person is standing under the Orion constellation on the night of the summer soltice (if that is possible).

Its all pretty simple. It becomes complicated when we try to hold onto the old ways mentally speaking.

I would say the key to recovery is COMPASSION. Use it on yourself and others and start to make the life changes that are staring you in your face and become dam obvious after the first session and which catalyse the emergence of the underlying issues which require treatment via mini-sessions (low-dose sessions) and perhaps some full-sessions over a pèriod of years.

The reason for all this is because recovery only works when we dissect bit by bit the underlying causes which support our addiction and this we can only do when we are willing to put aside the war and seek the peace.

Otherwise we can spend our lives looking for a miracle cure which requires no personal change and which does not and never will exist apart from some form of lobotomy.

All the best to you. Dahhhhhhhh Dah …….was that I we ,=????????000000^^^^^^Oh my Cat..

Lee

The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Martee !!
Thank you for your answer. I think that I read somewhere that the success rate of Ibogaine in long term was about 15 %.
So it’s seems to me that the after care is the most important part of the recovery. What I am trying to find is what will be the best for after care. I have my idea on the subject but I want to check what are the real needs for the individual by asking the addicts who already took Ibogaine what will work.
I am thinking for esample of a minimum of a month of after care in a very beautiful but very rustic environment in some tropical paradise, on the beach . Kind of the first Club Med in Sicily that was designed with no luxury for divers . Martial art, meditation , yoga, archery, diving, snorkling, fishing, motivational talk, three meals, will be provided. The cost should be minimal, but the persone in recovery should be require a minimum of four hours light work following is abilities . This small farm should include, a medecinal garden and some animals. No radio, no  TV, no news,  discussions on politics and religions ( that was the only rules of the Club Med 🙂 because the man who create the club  didn’t want to divide people.
What do you think ?
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: m.finman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:28:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 16, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Vector Vector wrote:

Patrick, isn’t summer house another center owned by mom? I though the
holistic treatment pimp, spam machine 😉 and summer house werre both
owned by Mash?

And … you would be wrong in both instances.

Patrick

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:27:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis and Donna,

I would say the success rate with Ibo for people WHO
ACTUALLY WANT TO QUIT AND ARE NOT JUST PAYING
LIPSERVICE TO FAMILY/FRIENDS would be around 65-100%.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me secondary
withdrawal symptoms were a killer, with depression
ranking as the #1 reason why I would relapse.

I didn’t get the depression post-Ibo, and this is why
I think I’m still clean.  Ibo didn’t take away all the
symptoms of acute withdrawal, not even close.  And the
insomnia really gets to you after a while.  But still,
it’s the best detox aid I’ve ever found…

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 2:00:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I dont know where mexico is, besides below the united state 😉 did they
go out of business?

Summer house is trashing ibogaine.

http://www.drugdetoxcenter.com/web_faqs.cfm

Patrick, isn’t summer house another center owned by mom? I though the
holistic treatment pimp, spam machine 😉 and summer house werre both
owned by Mash?

.:vector:.

— Cindy Derida <cindyderida@yahoo.com> wrote:

Could someone please tellme where I can get ibogaine
treatment or is the lady at the university for $10,500
the only one? there are all these sites and adds for
ibogaine but for two of them they go back to her and
where is the mexican ibogaine clinic please? I and a
friend want to go somewhere they dont reply to any
numbers listed on web site or return mail. this hasnt
been 2 hours it is more like a week or more.

The summer house place lists themselves as ibogaine
under the adds but on their web site all they do is
write a page of why its a quack herbal cure that
doesnt work and if you call them they say its garbage
and offer to give you diladid instead. The opiate site
link doesnt know anything about its 3 people saying
nothing and reprinting ibogaine conference listing.

Isthere any treatment still open besides the doctor
lady at miami for over 10000?

c
— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I think they’re talking about Ibogaine.  Click on
the link and you’ll
find
the whole discussion.
—– Original Message —–
From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have
heard no good about
it
and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it
took us some time to
get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are
supossed to be
“Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the
lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a
regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the
next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done
this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I
can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But
do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it
is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I
just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont
come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know
this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I
have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there

…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY

http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with
(amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:54:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
What is diladid????????

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:52:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis

Thank you I think the answer is ibogaine to, Now to find the cash and a provider because it is easier to have the ibo straight from H rather than bup,  10% sucess rate on the 12 steps thats really low I was amazed, but then to read 15% sucess rate with ibo was really dis heartening.

with love Donna

From: Cindy Derida <cindyderida@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] mexico, summer house
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:46:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Could someone please tellme where I can get ibogaine
treatment or is the lady at the university for $10,500
the only one? there are all these sites and adds for
ibogaine but for two of them they go back to her and
where is the mexican ibogaine clinic please? I and a
friend want to go somewhere they dont reply to any
numbers listed on web site or return mail. this hasnt
been 2 hours it is more like a week or more.

The summer house place lists themselves as ibogaine
under the adds but on their web site all they do is
write a page of why its a quack herbal cure that
doesnt work and if you call them they say its garbage
and offer to give you diladid instead. The opiate site
link doesnt know anything about its 3 people saying
nothing and reprinting ibogaine conference listing.

Isthere any treatment still open besides the doctor
lady at miami for over 10000?

c
— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I think they’re talking about Ibogaine.  Click on
the link and you’ll
find
the whole discussion.
—– Original Message —–
From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have
heard no good about
it
and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it
took us some time to
get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are
supossed to be
“Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the
lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a
regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the
next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done
this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I
can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But
do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it
is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I
just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont
come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know
this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I
have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there

…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY

http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with
(amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:29:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Donna.
Maybee you are not a scholar but you know more abot addiction than any specialist, because you had to go through the pain in your own flesh. I believe that only addicts can understand the problem. In fact , I read in ” Seven weeks to sobriety ” from the only statistics available to the public ( psychiatrist in California ) the success rate in rehab is 10 % BUT THE SUICIDE RATE down the road is 30% .   Ibogaine should be your answer.
Thank you one more time and God bless you
F
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time)  So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 12:48:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee !!
Thank you for your answer. I think that I read somewhere that the success rate of Ibogaine in long term was about 15 %.
So it’s seems to me that the after care is the most important part of the recovery. What I am trying to find is what will be the best for after care. I have my idea on the subject but I want to check what are the real needs for the individual by asking the addicts who already took Ibogaine what will work.
I am thinking for esample of a minimum of a month of after care in a very beautiful but very rustic environment in some tropical paradise, on the beach . Kind of the first Club Med in Sicily that was designed with no luxury for divers . Martial art, meditation , yoga, archery, diving, snorkling, fishing, motivational talk, three meals, will be provided. The cost should be minimal, but the persone in recovery should be require a minimum of four hours light work following is abilities . This small farm should include, a medecinal garden and some animals. No radio, no  TV, no news,  discussions on politics and religions ( that was the only rules of the Club Med 🙂 because the man who create the club  didn’t want to divide people.
What do you think ?
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: m.finman
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 12:27:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think they’re talking about Ibogaine.  Click on the link and you’ll find
the whole discussion.
—– Original Message —–
From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have heard no good about it
and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it took us some time to get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are supossed to be “Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there ”
…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY
http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

————————————————————————–

—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start
taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go
away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more
to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your
body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and
attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you
would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase
of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal
and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at
first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to
become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to
the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when
you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like
say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I
really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge
was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and
the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda
“sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by
and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose,
the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that
secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after
dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more
often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an
antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person
to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty,
shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like
euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just
like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the
dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will
have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking
dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any
euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than
full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take
a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you
stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger
dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our
guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed
to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It
was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no
matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it
helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher
dose..

————————————————————————–

—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM,
hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it
works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the
optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually
determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most
patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if
you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Agenda details NYC Ibogaine Forum
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:31:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Really looking forward to the NYC Forum this upcoming weekend.
Jeff’s psyched for Sunday, and I’m geeked out about Monday – go
figure.

But ALSO, the Sound Tribe Sector NIne will be through newyawk this
weekend for trance-techno-bliss-groove events at the Irving Plaza on
Friday and Saturday evening.  Tix are $22 in advance, $25 at the door;
see http://www.sts9.com/info.php?i=1371   Highly recommended.

the ibo-wife formerly known as rachelradhakrishna

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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:28:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Martee, I thought that anything that holds your opiate receptors will keep you addicted. Don’t heroin and methadone act on the same receptors? So, if you substitute methadone for heroin, you are not ever going to be able to detox because you are still filling your opiate receptors, (and you are actually giving yourself an opiate that is even harder to kick).
Laura

— On Wed 02/16, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:

From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time) So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Dutch heroin trials find better outcomes in those with prior abstinence based treatments (!?)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 11:04:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

randomised to ‘medical’ heroin of 61% versus 39% in the oral methadone
group.  This is highly significant both statistically (p=0.0003) and also
from a dependency point of view.  The finding appears to be corroborated

gah… i hate to sound nit picky, but this really irks me…

there is no such thing as being “highly statistically signficant”.
something is either statistically signficant, or it isn’t. a p level of
0.0003 is not “more significant” than a p level of 0.05. if you want to
talk about how much of an effect something has (i.e. how important the
effect is), you have to look at the effect size, not the significance
level.

j0n

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From: <shamaness@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]ok i get it.offlist
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:48:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

–
MORE FUN!
LESS STUFF!
MAKE ART*
NOT WAR :(
LUV -
NOT
SUV!

—- HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>Dear Francis,
>
>First I need some education. Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
>term?
>
>As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can go
>back
>in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
>experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the individual but, how
>they are viewed within society. And then we must separate how one may be viewed
>and what acts can be taken against them. There is no doubt in my mind the
>harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and conventions that
>mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and then further
>defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and punishable by long
>prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are not only tracked
>by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of drugs in
>order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has resulted in
>greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users. It is this
>stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to significantly increase the
>psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more simply to create
>an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates and makes
>worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing users in society
>in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews in states
>where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against. This is a
>terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system that I have heralded
>ibogaine for so much of my life.
>
>Howard
>
>In a message dated 2/15/05 12:25:39 AM, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:
>
>>Hi Howard !!
>>
>>This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ” bougeois
>>”.
>
>>In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
>>alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
>>I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs
>>or alcohol.
>>
>>1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems
>>of drunkness .
>
>>Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
>>drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
>>murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
>>entitled offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
>>condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a
>>dead body.
>
>>In China there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
>>ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
>>appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
>>suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
>>alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
>>For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
>>reduce consumption.
>
>>A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can go back
>>in history.
>>
>>God bless
>>
>>Francis ( ex drunk 🙂 )
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\ 
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>
>

From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:12:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Donna,
If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones.  It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready.  The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still.  The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more.   By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically.  I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc.  But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing?  Just a thought.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time)  So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 7:10:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Are you talking about “Rapid Detox?” If so I have heard no good about it and
a Big waste of money. Think about it.Really, it took us some time to get
where we are at and an over-night cure and we are supossed to be “Normal?”
Sue

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there ”
…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY
http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

————————————————————————–

—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start
taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go
away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more
to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your
body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and
attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you
would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase
of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal
and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at
first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to
become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to
the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when
you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like
say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I
really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge
was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and
the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda
“sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by
and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose,
the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that
secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after
dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more
often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an
antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person
to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty,
shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like
euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just
like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the
dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will
have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking
dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any
euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than
full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take
a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you
stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger
dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our
guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed
to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It
was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no
matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it
helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher
dose..

————————————————————————–

—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM,
hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it
works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the
optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually
determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most
patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if
you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 6:08:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Francis

I dont know if I class as a scholar of addiction, but I have been addicted to Heroin for many years, the best way to help me would be to find the easiest most painless way to get off heroin without becoming an addicted to another drug, I am desparate to come off and I have a supply of subutex but the thing thats stopping me is I then have to come off that ( which for me personally was horrendous last time)  So for me access to ibogaine and provider hope this answers your question.
Take care
Love Donna

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:34:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/16/2005 2:30:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:
LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis
Francis, there are a lot of people here that have been helped by Ibogaine for longer than me, but I can tell you how I got where I am.       Step one……..realize that I’m not going to die from liver cancer or Hep C and don’t want to be addicted anymore.    Step two……..look for a way out.    Step three……..Realize the futility in this and take way more methadone.     Step four……..Check out the Ibo info that my mother wryly lets me “find on my own”.      Step five………Promptly piss all over the idea that some wild ass trip stuff from Africa will cure addiction while eating a hand full of Methadone.      Step six………become completely obsessed with finding all the info I can on Ibogaine and begin the search for it.       Step seven……..Become convinced that this could really work.     Step eight………find a great provider and take my medicine.      Step nine…….Giggle at the purple snakes writing words in my head and watch the blast off, puke, colors explode in my head, puke some more, watch African women dance to a Rumba and become completely amazed at the beauty of life.         Step ten………..Cry, laugh, contemplate, cry some more, and generally freak out for about 2 weeks while getting little sleep. (it was worth it).      Step eleven……..Finally take my providers advice and seek counseling, laugh at the looks of disbelief that I get from most of them when I tell them how I got clean, go to lots of meetings in the town where I got sober and use my sponsor, laugh at the look of disbelief from him when I tell him how I got clean, read the big book, AGAIN, take what I need from Big book and leave the rest, read the 4 Agreements, read some more of the bible, keep my head in Ibogaine and harm reduction daily on the Internet, and keep an open mind.       Step twelve…….Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps I put my soul into trying to get the word out about Ibogaine to the addicts that have no clue that there is an option like this. O, by the way, I don’t recommend telling a room full of old timers in AA about Ibogaine, it goes over like a fart in a scuba tank.               Randy

From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 5:16:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi List

I guess the idea that rehab is the holly grail of treatment appears to be quite a common belief. After all its probably the most expensive? – Apart from maybe the criminal injustice system. I would say that the best you can expect from rehab is that it provides a safe place where folk can have a break from their destructive lifestyle, maybe put on some weight and engage their thoughts. If after having done this, they can then walk back out into reality without their chemical comfort blanket then that is something that amazes me and probably happens is a very small amount of cases – I don’t have any stats and I’m, not sure they could be collated everyone has a different idea of success.

It’s easy to forget that the vast majority of people who decide to change their lives do it without any professional help. I work in the area of addictions and what works for most people is a shift from within. Services can help to motivate people with their own shift but its not easy, once in services its easy to get stuck in them. Quite often the folk that come into treatment are at the point where they have wondered off the paths and onto the moors so often they find it hard to recognise a path let alone walk on one. This is made all the more difficult if they have a significant history of criminal justice interventions and have developed an ability to gravitate towards bad karma from low self esteem from negative experience.

In my view the world is often a difficult place to be and so life inside the bubble of dependency offers some kind of protective barrier from the greedy, competitive, self obsessed planet we chose to create for ourselves.

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction? Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:55:48 +0000 (GMT)

Hi Howard,

Theres a lot of interesting stuff in this article which I can identify with in my own recovery albeit not drug addiction. I would like to point to one item:

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

I would define “brief interventions” as mini-sessions or low-dose sessions that help to chip away at the issues.

I disagree totally with:

The recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.

This suggests very primitive ideas about compartmentalising your inner world and avoiding it with the outer world. Perhaps the author might better say that the recovering addict needs to discover compassion for him or herself and those around her or her.

In eboga terms I would say that “addiction” recovery translates to filling in the gaps in ones psyche or persona the addiction masks over. Hence, while gaps remain, i.e. unresolved material leading to emotional pain and discomfort, the “addiction” or use of drugs of choice will always be a possibility but not always a neccessity. However, this is secondary to the inner work one does and the reengagement with life that occurs. Immediate cessation of drugs is not what healing with eboga is about, even if it is desirable.

In other words its about growing (up) rapidly over a period of time via the insight and change brought about with eboga.

Which leads to and brings about:

Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

Which in turn leads to (via for one thing the spiritual intervention in this world eboga gives along with the self-empowerment the healing brings about):

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is interesting:

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

In eboga terms by step xyz you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who stands up for himself or herself when the occasion warrents or walk away when it doesnt. Plus you will be motivated to heal whatever wounds you have been a party to as well as try to give to others some of the love that daily fills and blesses your life as you walk in the freedom of your own true self.

It all boils down to intention, a dash of faith, a sprinking of humility and perseverence  with the path imo.

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-100-1480776,00.html

February 14, 2005
Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
by Michele Kirsch
A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste of
time

KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy: rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete. Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective. She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless” and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with absent friends – get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:46:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Randy, wish you all good forum in N.Y,  I think the place is just right for this.

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 9:18
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Your beautiful Sara. I kind of feel like Ibogaine did that for me. I know I’ve never felt like this before. I like where I am at.           Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please/OT Rant
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:42:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/16/2005 2:42:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, Lavindin@aol.com writes:
Tryied to get off that list but the site kept comming up error and I just can’t seem to make this list go away and now i habve a friend all mad as I forwarded something to him before I knew we would be swamped with e-mails… help me get rid of this
I just have to know how you can send an Email to someone and have them get swamped with E mails from this list. That’s it, I have it. Patrick is trying to take over the world with computers. I knew he wasn’t right. Did he go to Yale? Is Patrick the Anti Christ? I’m digging my bomb shelter 100 feet deeper now that I have found this out. Anybody know where to get Hepa filters cheap? What’s the shelf life of coffee and herb? Will there be an internet after Armaggedon? Gotta get more ammo……Gotta get more ammo…….Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:18:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Your beautiful Sara. I kind of feel like Ibogaine did that for me. I know I’ve never felt like this before. I like where I am at.           Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 16, 2005 at 3:12:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s a little pipe that gives you a couple of tokes. I’m on the marijuana maintenance plan. I am jokin’ ya know. I don’t see herb as a problem tho. Can you say Harm Reduction?   Randy

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@call south.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Preston n’ Nick
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:36:26 AM EST
To: “ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But love instead of judgement I bet would be more
effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he
asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life” (not that
you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway,
have a day all.

That was so well said Preston.  Reminded me of my parents explaining to me that much as they loved me and enjoyed seeing me they didn’t appreciate my visits nodding off, throwing up or planting my face in the plate at the dinner table.  They quietly put down their requests & wants that included visiting when I was relatively coherent and if not it might be better to stay home.  I know they hated me using but I did have to respect their feelings especially the way they put it without screaming at me or cutting me off.  They still had my daughter to stay and spent time with her and I was always welcome as long as I respected their wishes in their home.  They certainly never gave me money for the obvious reasons but they did help out with paying for necessities or treats.   Allison

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:36:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The type that teaches you to trust your heart ,mind and spirit , without the brain washing of AA/NA.
We are capable to think and feel and recover from almost anything with the right attitude and trust.
Right  attitude = when you become creative and happy with what you got. Acceptance that you are not a recovering addict
But an ex- user who found using as boring as hell.
Or something like that…

God bless  Francis,

Sara
Van: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net] 
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 5:03
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 16, 2005 at 1:12:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

02/15/2005 :  7:28:58 PM
I just talked to someone at the clinic that the lady
from the University of Miami runs. She said it is
10.5k, which is what I was gonna spend at a regular
detox clinic anyway. She said I will wake up the next
day and feel great. Hard to believe. Anyone done this
or know anyone who has? Is it really pain free. I can
deal with the cravings coming back one day. But do the
Wd’s never come? Do you never have the horrible
stretchy achy WD’s? I dont mind the money if it is
relly pain free and will do what they said. I just
want to make sure it works first and that I wont come
out of it mentally handicapped.. I mean I know this
sounds silly, but it seems that the few people I have
heard from on this , sounded a little ” out there ”
…Anyone have any good info on this

SKINNY
http://www.heroin-detox.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3329

— Hannah Clay <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst
other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

—————————————————————————-
—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start
taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go
away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more
to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your
body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and
attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you
would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase
of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal
and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at
first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to
become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to
the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when
you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like
say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I
really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge
was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and
the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda
“sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by
and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose,
the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that
secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after
dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more
often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an
antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person
to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty,
shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like
euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just
like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the
dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will
have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking
dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any
euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than
full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take
a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you
stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger
dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our
guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed
to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It
was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no
matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it
helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher
dose..

—————————————————————————-
—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM,
hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it
works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the
optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually
determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most
patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if
you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 16, 2005 at 12:24:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis,
I believe what one does or needs to do after….
depends on where they were before.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 11:02:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL :–0
I am not setting up for a slam 🙂 LOL
I am serious. Very serious. I just try to figure out what’ will be the best way to help. This is very important for me.
Aftercare, but what type and along.? I mean this question is for all the list and  I take very seriously any answer.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: Lavindin@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 10:41:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Tryied to get off that list but the site kept comming up error and I just can’t seem to make this list go away and now i habve a friend all mad as I forwarded something to him before I knew we would be swamped with e-mails… help me get rid of this …………………

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:54:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,
What are “one hits” mate?

Love ya,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position

Yea Nick, it does. I guess being a junkie/ex junkie myself, I am defensive about it. I empathize with every one who is addicted to anything because I’m the same way. LOL  Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me the chair or nothin’. They might come over and drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but I’m willin’ to take that risk.      Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:51:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis, why do I feel like you are setting me up for a slam? Fuck it, I’ll say it anyway. Ibogaine, IBOGAINE,.iBogaINE. There, I said it. It was the only thing to work like this for me. Then some kind of aftercare counseling, the more the better. Some kind of affirmation and self help book,……..I could go on but you know all of this.     Randy

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 15, 2005 at 7:49:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Right on brothers.

Love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job, whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 7:40:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy 🙂
Thank you for your answer. In your opinion , what should be the best way to help and  to get the most “elegant” result ( fast and simple ) ?
F
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?

Francis, I don’t think that if a person asks for help that it is messin’ with his Karma to do so. Wouldn’t it be messin’ with your Karma if you turned down an honest plea for help? I think it would mine. If I have information that can help an individual, I will be all means give it to him if he asks. I had to ask about 57 people for help till I found the Ibogaine. Well, it seemed like it, maybe it was more like 14 or 15, but I had to seek the help myself first.      Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:17:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis, I don’t think that if a person asks for help that it is messin’ with his Karma to do so. Wouldn’t it be messin’ with your Karma if you turned down an honest plea for help? I think it would mine. If I have information that can help an individual, I will be all means give it to him if he asks. I had to ask about 57 people for help till I found the Ibogaine. Well, it seemed like it, maybe it was more like 14 or 15, but I had to seek the help myself first.      Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:16:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny.<

Yeeeah, I got that Steven, no worries.

I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you
ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope that shit
is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference.<

LOL, well, maybe, but then, that might be boring too, no yelling or argumentativeness rearing its ugly head.
As always,
Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

>I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny. I appreciate your manners Preston. I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope that shit is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference. Otherwise it just becomes preaching to the choir. It would be nice to have you guys go somewhere with this all. Perhaps we are. No reason to yell.

A commune? Nick, for some reason that slipped my mind… Isn’t it tough to keep strident ideals in a community of individuals? Isn’t there always a conflict between the good of the group and the needs and freedoms of the individual? Compromise is needed, correct? Taste and color are different for all. The most oppressive time of my life was when I was at a commune type farm with all these well-intentioned Quaker hippies. They knew what was best. Peace, love and vegetarianism. I couldn’t stop myself from eating giant steaks and sharing cheerful and inspiring excerpts from ‘Mein Kampf.’ Just my nature I guess. On the other hand I feel the best community/society is a village, so go figure.

A little pop psychology stab in the dark – Nick, is your view of addiction and addicts colored by your experience with your brother? The hardest thing in the world is to see someone you love hurt themselves.

Peace out,
Steve.

PS: Carla, a darn good talk show indeed… or perhaps a ‘reality’ show. What a cast of characters. Put ’em on a desert island, throw in a bikini clad temptress to stir it up and bingo! Nick does dope, Dana and Peter do ibo, and poor Preston misses V terribly. Or maybe Dr. Phil could help. Jerry Springer anyone? Just kidding…

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:55:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear List .
I am not grouch, just pondering….

After reading this long E-mail
” A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste
of
time “Bla Bla Bla Snip Snip
.

I start to  believe too, that rehab is a waste of time.

I remember seeing in India a man dying in the street, he was so skinny,
just bones and skin, few pound of humanity laying on the sidewalk. At the
time I was doing business in India and I was with one of my providers.
The poor man was dying at few yards from a bus station where hundred of
people where waiting, impassible, continuing to laught and talk together. It
was a beautiful day in Old Deli.
Just another day. I wanted to put the man in a a cab an bringing him to a
close Hospital. The provider and another man explained me that it was not a
good idea : I was interfering in his Karma, and… if he was to die in the
taxi, his familly could suit me in the futur. So I let him died and bought
me an Ice cream…
Now, today on the beach enjoying the Sunset I was asking myself a question :
helping an addict to quit, are we interfering with the laws of Nature, God,
or Evolution. ? This is a pertinent question
In case, for any reason we are not breaking any of theses fondamental laws
and we want realy to bother.

What will be the best way to help addicts ?
I would like to ask this questions to the bright scholars of  addictions and
expert in the realm of drugz of this list. .
God Bless
Francis

I read :
KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy:
rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was
the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete.
Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics
and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned
that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on
which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS
pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now
have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic
interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there
is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their
addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are
no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts
of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and
heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing
supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE
course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a
life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t
like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest
part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for
prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there
would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective.
She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was
not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to
do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research
study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and
prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing
early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is
that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain
listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that
they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless”
and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme
suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the
US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is
another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and
also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and
scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most
Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most
self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life
skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather
than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help
people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or
alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just
Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on
treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of
permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to
Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit
that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] NY Times painkiller article
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:58:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:28:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick.

Aahhhh…. I was just joking. You know, trying to be funny. I appreciate your manners Preston. I’m always amused in a good way by the “Nick, you ignorant slut fascist, peace and love, Preston.” We can only hope that shit is stirred so intelligently and politely at the conference. Otherwise it just becomes preaching to the choir. It would be nice to have you guys go somewhere with this all. Perhaps we are. No reason to yell.

A commune? Nick, for some reason that slipped my mind… Isn’t it tough to keep strident ideals in a community of individuals? Isn’t there always a conflict between the good of the group and the needs and freedoms of the individual? Compromise is needed, correct? Taste and color are different for all. The most oppressive time of my life was when I was at a commune type farm with all these well-intentioned Quaker hippies. They knew what was best. Peace, love and vegetarianism. I couldn’t stop myself from eating giant steaks and sharing cheerful and inspiring excerpts from ‘Mein Kampf.’ Just my nature I guess. On the other hand I feel the best community/society is a village, so go figure.

A little pop psychology stab in the dark – Nick, is your view of addiction and addicts colored by your experience with your brother? The hardest thing in the world is to see someone you love hurt themselves.

Peace out,
Steve.

PS: Carla, a darn good talk show indeed… or perhaps a ‘reality’ show. What a cast of characters. Put ’em on a desert island, throw in a bikini clad temptress to stir it up and bingo! Nick does dope, Dana and Peter do ibo, and poor Preston misses V terribly. Or maybe Dr. Phil could help. Jerry Springer anyone? Just kidding…

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:25:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard !!

Bourgeois is a pre marxist term . Now the notion of a
bourgeois state , and the idea of his power to define addiction as evil  is
in my view a marxist  definition or at least existentialist.. Is true that
the ” Bourgeois ” as a social class in charge of justice and punishment his
very harsh and judgmental regarding addiction ;they still see the addict as
somebody that have to suffer as consequences of is weakness or vices.Before
the “Bougeois”  Non elected Rulers had to pass laws to protect the social
order.

Infortunately , a  drunk or an addict had to live with the stygmatas of his
disease. He is perceived by the society  as a paria , the lower class of our
society.I have seen this everywhere, in Africa, South America, in Middle
East etc…, everywhere.
I am refering as addict as : a persone who become physiologically or
psychologically dependent on a habit-forming substance and who is hurting
himself or others  . I read in a  study that  people in this country will
rather had a serious criminal who paid is dues,  as a next door  neighbor
than an active alcoholic.!!  That the way people look at drunks or addict.
:-(.

You wrote :
I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.

Governments regards toward drugs will change as soon  they will discover
the perfect drug with no side effect. I remember some nice articles in the
international press , starting by the Times. Showing how perfect was cocaine
🙂 Finally, the perfect recreational drug :-)You will remember  nice
articles promoting H too in the 60s:-). They have to amused us to death, to
stop us from thinking.
Peoples of the lies”  will continue to push theirs agenda upon the masses
selling theirs false dream and  cheap fake pleasures.

Reading ;” The Tranquilizing of America”  I discover that ours governments
had nothing realy against drugs, they just want to control the production
and commercialisation of it. . Opium is even  better than religion to
enslave people. Maybee the generation of my Gran son will have to fight for
the right of not taking drugs ( I have been grouch, one more time ).

I admire your job and God probably had choosen you to have this important
role in this battle against the stygmatisation of the addicts. by ours
societies.

God Bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can
go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the
individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how one may be
viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and conventions
that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and then
further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and punishable
by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are not only
tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has resulted
in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to significantly
increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more simply to
create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates and
makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing users in
society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews in
states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system that I
have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

In a message dated 2/15/05 12:25:39 AM, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net
writes:

Hi Howard !!

This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ”
bougeois
” .

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found
addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs
or alcohol.

1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems
of drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled  offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a
dead body.

In China  there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000
years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol.
Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record
clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these
problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go back
in history.

God bless

Francis  ( ex drunk 🙂 )

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 3:03:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wrote >And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at opiate users
when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or
feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for
opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each and every
individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me,
really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or
not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and
will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.<

I must admit I didn’t know about the brother until I finished reading Carla’s note, which I hadn’t done when firing off the last note. It doesn’t really change much, but it does give me personally more insight to where you might be coming from Nick. I did not know about your brother, and yes, I imagine it might be rough to see a loved one go through what you think is a really bad space (and under current prohibition policies quite often is a really bad space). But love instead of judgement I bet would be more effective for your brother- I’m not saying, “hand him cash whenever he asks,” or “pamper him,” more just “don’t cut him outta your life” (not that you have/are, as I do not know what your situation is with him). Anyway, have a day all.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

Carla wrote >I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)<
—–

http://www.surgical-tutor.org.uk/default-home.htm?surgeons/halstead.htm~right

William Halstead (1852-1922)
—–

To be honest Steven, I don’t know why we (Nick and I) can’t continue debating online. I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick. It’s an honest disagreement, and while I myself am really bent out of shape over what I percieve as his descrimination towards opiate users, along with all his blanket assertions about opiate users’ lives being boring, I still favor “peace and love” as opposed to “screw you.” (Though, yes, I’ll admit, there’ve been a few times now when yes, that’s a more honest spur of the moment feeling, but I try to resist that as much as possible, as it usually merely exacerbates the heated disagreement and rarely brings anyone to my point of view. Not that I always succeed at resisting, but I do try.)

But I’m not about to pay a phone bill to England just to debate this issue with Nick on the phone, nor do I particularly feel like discussing it on the phone regardless of makes the call or who’s paying the bill.
I’m a writer and reader, so why not write it out Nick? Explain it to me (and us) here so it doesn’t sound like you’re looking down on poor, still addled(?) opiate users, please, or don’t if you don’t want to, it’s all ok with me. But I don’t really see a reason to pick up the phone for this Nick, it’s a public disagreement I don’t feel like taking to the private realm at this point. No offense, but I don’t want to.
And of course, each time I feel like disagreeing with you onlist I will continue to do so. I hope that doesn’t stop you from voicing your views here, as it gives me food for thought, even as strongly as I disagree with you.
You never-been-a-junkie you.
And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at opiate users when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each and every individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me, really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.
That means committing actual crimes for your information btw, like breaking and entering, armed robbery, drunk/doped driving, etc.
Egad, I’ve ranted again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 2:43:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla wrote >I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)<
—–

http://www.surgical-tutor.org.uk/default-home.htm?surgeons/halstead.htm~right

William Halstead (1852-1922)
—–

To be honest Steven, I don’t know why we (Nick and I) can’t continue debating online. I don’t want to say “screw you” to Nick. It’s an honest disagreement, and while I myself am really bent out of shape over what I percieve as his descrimination towards opiate users, along with all his blanket assertions about opiate users’ lives being boring, I still favor “peace and love” as opposed to “screw you.” (Though, yes, I’ll admit, there’ve been a few times now when yes, that’s a more honest spur of the moment feeling, but I try to resist that as much as possible, as it usually merely exacerbates the heated disagreement and rarely brings anyone to my point of view. Not that I always succeed at resisting, but I do try.)

But I’m not about to pay a phone bill to England just to debate this issue with Nick on the phone, nor do I particularly feel like discussing it on the phone regardless of makes the call or who’s paying the bill.
I’m a writer and reader, so why not write it out Nick? Explain it to me (and us) here so it doesn’t sound like you’re looking down on poor, still addled(?) opiate users, please, or don’t if you don’t want to, it’s all ok with me. But I don’t really see a reason to pick up the phone for this Nick, it’s a public disagreement I don’t feel like taking to the private realm at this point. No offense, but I don’t want to.
And of course, each time I feel like disagreeing with you onlist I will continue to do so. I hope that doesn’t stop you from voicing your views here, as it gives me food for thought, even as strongly as I disagree with you.
You never-been-a-junkie you.
And on that note, what do you mean, casting asperations at opiate users when you’ve no clue what they are really going through or experiencing or feeling? How can you state so insistantly that you know what’s best for opiate users and abusers when you really haven’t a clue what each and every individual is experiencing while using opiates? I can only speak for me, really, but I can be supportive of others’ free will and choice to quit or not quit using opiates/alcohol/pot/sex/excercise/overeating/etc, etc, and will be, so long as it isn’t imposing on me or others.
That means committing actual crimes for your information btw, like breaking and entering, armed robbery, drunk/doped driving, etc.
Egad, I’ve ranted again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Subutex dosage (Howard)
Date: February 15, 2005 at 2:19:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I got my info from a forum that deals with (amongst other things) Subutex.
To look into it more, check out the forum:

http://www.heroin-detox.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

—————————————————————————-
—————————————–

The initial effects you have when you first start taking bup seem to last
only for a short period of time, or sometimes go away as your body adapts
and becomes dependent on it.

Just like with oxy or hydro, you need to take more to feel the high while
the high lasts for a shorter period of time.
The effects are shorter yet the drug stays in your body just as long as
before.

What is happening is your body is changing and attempting to be “normal”
despite the drug. This is tolerance and adaption.

If you remove the drug once the body adapts, you would then have an
imbalance of neuro transmitters due to the increase of receptor-sites … It
takes a long time for the levels to return to normal and is what causes PAWS

I have found that at higher doses of bupe (worked at first) the positive
effects (effective half-life) were shorter lived.

As the dose went higher the effects continued to become shorter until I
needed to dose 4-5 times a day.

At this point I felt more like crap than not, due to the drug’s effect
cycle.
What I mean by effect cycle, is what happens when you dose.

When I would take bupe after a period of time, like say 12 hrs from my last
dose, there was an initial effect of relief where I really noticed the
almost warm return to a ‘good feeling’.
After a few hours tho, that energy and extra edge was gone and a few hrs
later I would start to sweat and feel kinda crummy.
It was not w/d. It was the effective half life and the positive effects
wearing off. That would pass and then I was kinda “sub” normal (hey a joke)
but not in W/D.

Slowly I would begin to get funky as time went by and eventually w/d would
begin.
The longer I was on bupe and the higher the dose, the shorter the
euphoric/energy/good feeling was lasting. Then that secondary sweating,
crummy feeling woould come at about 4-6 hrs after dosing. I think it’s a
rebound of sorts ……

The more you take the more you need and the more often you need to dose.

Unlike other opiates, Bup/sub acts more like an antagonist at high doses. At
lower doses it’s more like an agonist opiate.

It is very difficult for an opiate familiar person to OD on Bupe .. If you
took 10x-20x your dose you could not OD.
You just get uncomfortable, feel crappy, sweaty, shaky, and nervous. Unlike
a smaller dose which can give morphine like euphoria.

Many here when first going on bupe think it’s just like any other opiate and
more = more effect. Not so.
Once they experiment, they realize that keeping the dose very low actually
acts more like a pure full agonist opiate.

And guess what? If you keep the dose low it will have that more
quasi/euphoric/energizing like effect.

8 mg of bupe SL daily seems to be a full blocking dose FYI.
Also seems well above the dose which gives any euphoric effects once you are
dependent on it.

Bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than full agonist opiates and
will stick to them for around 2 full days.

If you’re wanting to cut your sub dose, it can take a while.
You may feel w/d and have cravings until you stabilize at a new dose, but
not always for everyone.

A lower dose actually feels like a larger dose….hence the term “Less IS
More” we read all over this board.

This is why many of us say, “Let our body be our guide” when we are
adjusting to Sub, cutting a dose, or tapering off.
No one knows how you are feeling but you.

Doses of 24 and 32 mg of bupe were supposed/purposed to be used for the
every 3 day dosing strategy in the UK(so I hear). It was not meant for DAILY
dosing.

Some common side effects include:
1)No sex drive for some taking Sub.
2)Constipation is a very common side effect, no matter what dose you may be
on.

I don’t know if this rambling was a help. I hope it helps give some insight
as to what may be happening when taking a higher dose..
—————————————————————————-
—-

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM, hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the optimum dose for
buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually determined on a patient by
patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most patients are dosed between
8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if you meant 2mg was the
optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 2:18:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Julie,

The reason I ask is that I was reading about the 2 deaths attributed to ibogaine and the extract where it was not conclusive. In the first the girl is suspected of leaving the ibogaine treatment room and shooting up – leading to od. In the second it makes no comment but just says the guy in the UK died while on the toliet after been treated successfully with the extract.

What springs to mind is this. If its not conclusive about the dutch girl od’ing then is it possible that the guy with the extract did something similar? Seems reasonable as he may have been feeling good and wanted to feel even better?

Why is it not conclusive (Dutch case) if it would show up on the autopsy?

Lee

Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Lee,

I’m not an expert, but I would imagine most hospitals
would run a toxicology report on the patient.
Heroin/morphine would turn up in it for sure…

Julie

__________________________________
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:55:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Theres a lot of interesting stuff in this article which I can identify with in my own recovery albeit not drug addiction. I would like to point to one item:

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.
I would define “brief interventions” as mini-sessions or low-dose sessions that help to chip away at the issues.

I disagree totally with:

The recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.

This suggests very primitive ideas about compartmentalising your inner world and avoiding it with the outer world. Perhaps the author might better say that the recovering addict needs to discover compassion for him or herself and those around her or her.

In eboga terms I would say that “addiction” recovery translates to filling in the gaps in ones psyche or persona the addiction masks over. Hence, while gaps remain, i.e. unresolved material leading to emotional pain and discomfort, the “addiction” or use of drugs of choice will always be a possibility but not always a neccessity. However, this is secondary to the inner work one does and the reengagement with life that occurs. Immediate cessation of drugs is not what healing with eboga is about, even if it is desirable.

In other words its about growing (up) rapidly over a period of time via the insight and change brought about with eboga.

Which leads to and brings about:

Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

Which in turn leads to (via for one thing the spiritual intervention in this world eboga gives along with the self-empowerment the healing brings about):

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is interesting:

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

In eboga terms by step xyz you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who stands up for himself or herself when the occasion warrents or walk away when it doesnt. Plus you will be motivated to heal whatever wounds you have been a party to as well as try to give to others some of the love that daily fills and blesses your life as you walk in the freedom of your own true self.

It all boils down to intention, a dash of faith, a sprinking of humility and perseverence  with the path imo.

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-100-1480776,00.html

February 14, 2005
Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
by Michele Kirsch
A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste of
time

KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy: rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete. Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective. She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless” and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [MAPS] Live audio web chat with the Shulgins
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:55:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Valerie Mojeiko, MAPS” <valerie@maps.org>
To: <maps-news@maps.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: [MAPS] Live audio web chat with the Shulgins

Rarely, MAPS will send out an announcement from an allied organization about
an event that is likely to be of particular interest to MAPS members and
friends.  What follows is a message from Ethan Nadelmann, Ph.D., J.D.,
Executive Director, Drug Policy Alliance, about a Feb. 22 live audio web
chat with Sasha and Ann Shulgin, several weeks after a remarkably positive
feature article was published about Sasha in the New York Times Sunday
Magazine: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n170/a05.html?2047

From  Ethan:

I am pleased to invite you to a live audio web chat at on Tuesday,
February 22 at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST with myself, Dr. Sasha Shulgin, the
noted psychedelic chemist and pharmacologist, and his wife Ann Shulgin,
the beloved writer and therapist. Dr. Shulgin, a former Dow research
chemist, is well known for his creation and discovery of new
psychoactive chemicals and for his promotion in the late 1970s and early
1980s of the use of MDMA in psychotherapy. Sasha and Ann Shulgin
together authored and published the books “PIHKAL: A Chemical Love
Story” and “TIHKAL: The Continuation,” detailing the synthesis of and
their personal experience with hundreds of psychedelics.

The Shulgins will be online to address your questions on a range of
topics from the “war on drugs” to the therapeutic use of MDMA. Please
email questions@drugpolicy.org before February 22 to submit questions,
and don’t forget to bookmark the chat address!

WHEN:  Tuesday, February 22, 2005
3 PM PST / 6 PM EST
WHERE: http://www.drugpolicy.org/events/shulginchat

Read on for further information about the Shulgins and myself:

Sasha Shulgin studied Chemistry at Harvard University and Biochemistry
and Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco. He has
authored over 200 research papers published in peer reviewed scientific
journals, been awarded some 20 patents and written four books. Sasha has
been studying the chemistry and effects of psychedelics for over 30
years. He was recently featured in the New York Times Magazine:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n170/a05.html?2047 , which described
him “not as a scientist in the modern sense but as a different type —
what Aldous Huxley, the novelist turned psychedelic philosopher, once
described as a ‘naturalist of the mind.'”

Ann Shulgin is a therapist who conducted psychedelic therapy before
1985, when MDMA was effectively made illegal when it was reclassified as
a Schedule I drug. Ann is a researcher and spokesperson for the
beneficial use of psychedelics, including MDMA, in a therapeutic
setting. The Shulgins travel and speak extensively on the topic of
psychedelics.

I am the founder and executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, the
leading organization in the United States promoting alternatives to the
“war on drugs.” I’ve spent many wonderful hours with Sasha and Ann over
the years. It will be a real pleasure to have you join our conversation.

To submit a question now, please use the following email address:
questions@drugpolicy.org.

I encourage you to pass along word about the chat to other people you
know who might be interested, and look forward to seeing you online on
the 22nd!

Best,

Ethan Nadelmann
Executive Director
Drug Policy Alliance
http://www.drugpolicy.org


Valerie Mojeiko
MAPS
2105 Robinson Avenue
Sarasota, FL 34232
941-924-6277 phone
941-924-6265 fax
www.maps.org

_______________________________________________
maps_members mailing list
maps_members@maps.org
http://www.maps.org/mailman/listinfo/maps_members

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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:49:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, isn’t this the place you went and did all
that lsd?

Carla B

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare
well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the
regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:47:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What a fun day. LMAO. Thanks for this Steven 🙂

Nick, besides what Steven said about many people who
did a lot of good for all humanity who were heroin
addicts. (and I dont mean only entertainers or the
stereotype of the musician on drugs, but doctors, I
think patrick posted here once that the father of
modern surgery who invented current surgical
procedures was a life long junkie. I don’t know his
name sorry, but it was John Hopkins medical center he
founded)

You said you live in a commune, couldn’t someone else
just as easily take everything you have ever said
about heroin addicts and apply it to you? Pull you out
of your house and go take part in the real world
instead of hiding in some fantasy world for people who
can’t handle the real world. Go get a job, why don’t
you have a family yet, are you a homosexual?

Sorry this is taking it way out there and I’ve
included the one rant of Dr. Cohen’s I thought
noxious, but I too am really tired of seeing the Nick
and Preston it will never end debate over who is
right. In one corner is Preston who is a sweet guy who
I like very much who is a drug user, has done ibogaine
and keeps contributing. In the other corner is someone
who has also done ibogaine, was never a addict, has a
brother he couldn’t get clean, lives in a commune and
runs one of the major ibogaine sites.

Borrowing Steven’s comments, if you add in Dr. Cohen
and Dana as representing people who have never done
ibogaine, I think there are all the elements for a
great talk show episode about very disturbed people!
🙂

Carla B

— Steven Anker <stevenanker@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and
perhaps gain a better
understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the
delightful back and forth. If
anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps
best left in god’s
hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right
for you. Don’t we get into
all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s
right for others?  The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really
great drug, I mean it’s
lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and
actually accomplish a great
deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been
known to taste, get hooked
and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s
such a great thing, does
that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that
in order to really help
an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK,
then I think it’s
essential that you get hooked for a year or two to
be able to really help
the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad
ideas can become good
ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad
always seems to change
through the ages and always struck me as relative.
Yes, we all want to help
and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not
causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if
they are doing it for
anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and
stubborn group of people,
those addicts. External forces don’t work that well.
They must choose to
quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if
you don’t quit” works, but
usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and
it’s a good kick in the
pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about
quitting, yeah I want to
but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to
keep from putting a
bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because
it does fix your head,
but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and
they HAVE to use
Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not
for everyone. It does
kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by
aliens during their trip
never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few
times, always goes back
to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with
methadone, so who’s to
know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him
a sacred duty to get you
try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really
feel pure love, sure
it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better
than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull
hammer, but what the hell,
words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and
hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear
about your girlfriend.
It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick
with a “Peace and love?”
Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:43:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee,

I’m not an expert, but I would imagine most hospitals
would run a toxicology report on the patient.
Heroin/morphine would turn up in it for sure…

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:36:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Too funny 😉

Lavindin, it’s the link at the bottom.

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/List/index.html

Carla B

— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi, I know how you feel. Unfortunately you will have
to bear with the list a little longer as Patrick
said he wants to keep you here so he can torture you
slowly with more emails on the subject of fascism
and curing homosexuality 🙂 with smoke up your ass
or something like that.

Heres a tip. Look at the bottom of the messages and
follow the trail to the commands which will delist
you. Don’t tell Patrick I told you……

Lavindin@aol.com wrote:
Please take me off the mailing list my mail box is
way to full and I have had enough.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of
eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for
members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Nick ‘n Preston
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:24:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick ‘n Preston,

Hope you guys can have a good conversation and perhaps gain a better understanding of each other.
Sadly, this may mean we no longer can read the delightful back and forth. If anyone changes his mind about anything, let us know.

Nick, some things to think about: Judging is perhaps best left in god’s hand. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right for you. Don’t we get into all sorts of trouble when we assume we know what’s right for others?  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

See if this example makes sense: Heroin is a really great drug, I mean it’s lovely. Many feel normal for the first time and actually accomplish a great deal. Dr.’s, musicians and others have all been known to taste, get hooked and get shit done. Some it helps. If I think it’s such a great thing, does that mean I must get you to try it? Many think that in order to really help an addict, one must know addiction first hand. OK, then I think it’s essential that you get hooked for a year or two to be able to really help the addict out. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Bad ideas can become good ideas with the proper salesman. What’s good and bad always seems to change through the ages and always struck me as relative. Yes, we all want to help and make a difference, but can we be sure we are not causing harm?

In my experience I rarely see anyone kick drugs if they are doing it for anyone else other than themselves. A selfish and stubborn group of people, those addicts. External forces don’t work that well. They must choose to quit on there own. Sometimes, “I’m leaving you if you don’t quit” works, but usually the user has been wanting to quit anyway and it’s a good kick in the pants. Usually addicts I know feel ambivalent about quitting, yeah I want to but my head’ so fucked up that I need the drugs to keep from putting a bullet in my head. I think ibo is effective because it does fix your head, but I would never tell anyone they HAVE to quit and they HAVE to use Ibogaine. Sure, I’m better off for it, but it is not for everyone. It does kill a few people. Those who are brutally raped by aliens during their trip never seem so thankful. A friend has done ibo a few times, always goes back to smack. She has finally managed to kick – with methadone, so who’s to know?

Preston feels he needs his meds, does that give him a sacred duty to get you try some of his medicine?

“Preston, this is great! For the first time I really feel pure love, sure it’s fake, but I don’t care. I mean this is better than my mother’s womb!”

“Ahhh Nick, I think you are such a great guy.”

This is probably beating a dead dog with a dull hammer, but what the hell, words are cheap. All voices need to be heard and hopefully can co-exist.

And Nick, I wouldn’t whisper anything into your ear about your girlfriend. It’s only fun if it’s a coke addled stock-broker.

Preston, why do you always end your rants at Nick with a “Peace and love?” Wouldn’t “Screw you Nick” be more honest?

Peace and Love,
Steve

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:15:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi, I know how you feel. Unfortunately you will have to bear with the list a little longer as Patrick said he wants to keep you here so he can torture you slowly with more emails on the subject of fascism and curing homosexuality 🙂 with smoke up your ass or something like that.

Heres a tip. Look at the bottom of the messages and follow the trail to the commands which will delist you. Don’t tell Patrick I told you……

Lavindin@aol.com wrote:
Please take me off the mailing list my mail box is way to full and I have had enough.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 1:11:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL I like the image!

Let me rephrase. What I want to know is this: is it possible that an OD on heroin would not show up on an autopsy report? If so, under what conditions?

Thanks Lee

pigchips <pigchips@comcast.net> wrote:

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin

Hi,

Can someone please tell me if it is possible to OD on Heroin and for it not to show up on an autopsy report? What factors are at work?

Thanks,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
Date: February 15, 2005 at 12:56:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-100-1480776,00.html

February 14, 2005
Drug rehab: is it just another addiction?
by Michele Kirsch
A growing number of doctors and addicts believe that drug rehab is a waste of
time

KATE MOSS’s rock star boyfriend, Pete Doherty, should at this moment be
facing what has become a rite of passage for any self-respecting party boy: rehab.
This is not the first time for the former Libertines frontman. Indeed, he is
already something of a veteran.

If you have followed his stumbling trail, you will know that he is quite
familiar with the 12-step programme and other programmes. Last May there was the
Priory in West London, but he checked out before the rehab was complete. Then
it was off to France, where again he didn’t fare well. Finally he was booked
into the Thamkrabok monastery in Thailand, where the regime includes emetics and
prayers. He lasted three days. So this is attempt number four. Will he make
it this time? Who can say, but in all the coverage no one has questioned that
rehab is his only hope.

In the last decade or so, it has become a kind of modern heresy to doubt the
efficacy of residential rehabilitation, and of the 12-step programme on which
it is often based. Nothing else works, we are told.

But does rehab actually rehabilitate? As private individuals and the NHS pour
millions into this method, a growing number of addicts and those involved in
their treatment are asking if it is really the only way.

“The NHS should get out of it entirely,” says Mike Fitzpatrick, a London
doctor. “As a GP, I see people who were involved in drugs years ago and now have
stopped. Very rarely has it got anything to do with therapeutic interventions,
it is usually down to something that has happened in their life. The drugs
lifestyle is so boring, so tedious, that most people come to realise there is
something better out there.”

He is not alone in thinking this. In America, there is a vociferous lobby
that says people give up drugs and drink because they “grow out it”. They
realise that there are more interesting things to do than nurture their addictions.
The trouble with 12-step programmes and rehab, say critics, is that they
encourage people to build their lives around drugs and alcohol when they are no
longer indulging.

Take Kelly Briggs, a 27-year-old who has been in residential rehab four
times. As she tells it, the funding, procuring and taking of large amounts of crack
cocaine and heroin is a full-time job. But so is not taking crack and heroin.
I meet Briggs a month after her last rehab has ended. Her time is spent
liaising with her key worker, her probation officer, her drug testing supervisor,
and other recovering addicts. There is still a lot of time to kill, a
junk-shaped hole to fill, and the few hours a week she spends on a GCSE course doesn’t
seem engaging enough to make a life without drugs more stimulating than a life
with them.

“It’s good in rehab because you are in a bubble,” she says. “You are not
really in society, just in this house, working on your emotions and s**t like
that. It’s good because you don’t have feelings when you are on drugs. But
after six months you have to go into the real world and that is the hardest part.”

Briggs started smoking crack at 14, taking heroin at 18, and was a daily in
jecting addict by the time she was 20. In trouble with the law for prostitution,
she made her first attempt at detox at a residential rehab centre in London.
She stuck it out for two days.

She tried to get clean again in 2002, when she was 25. “They said there would
be a doctor 24/7 but all I saw was a nurse.”

Briggs eventually went abroad for implants which make heroin ineffective. She
then went to prison, was released on a drugs treatment and testing order
(DTTO), and went to a daily centre for meetings with other addicts. That was not a
success “We used to use the breaks to plan where we were going to score,”
she says.

After four months in a residential rehab, she spent two months in a unit in
Hastings. “I just cleaned toilets. It was like slavery. They didn’t help me
find a place to live or tell me how to get a job.” (The treatment centre say
they work hard on helping clients find a place to live, a course or job to do.)

Just what constitutes good treatment and failure is open to interpretation,
but the numbers don’t look good. The National Treatment Outcome Research study,
which looked at over 1,000 drug users with long term opiate dependency found
that only 38 per cent of them were drug free five years after treatment.

A review of residential detoxification and rehabilitation services presented
by the Scottish Executive’s Effective Interventions says that relapse is so
common it is not considered a failure. The report defines the goal of
residential rehab as “the client’s long term abstinence from illicit and prescribed
drugs”. Even with such a limited definition of success some studies showing early
drop out or discharge rates as high as 70 per cent.

You could argue that the main reason people drop out of treatment is that
taking drugs is still more attractive an option than not taking drugs. So is that
the fault of rehab, or a lack of motivation on the part of the addict?

The moderate view is that it depends what addiction philosophy or model the
treatment is based upon. Of the 114 residential rehab units in Britain listed
on the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA), 49 say that they
use the 12-step model, which calls for users to admit they are “powerless” and
have to call on the help of a “higher power”.

But is telling an addict that he or she is powerless over their condition
really such a good thing? To the outsider, the language of the programme suggests
a non-denominational form of spirituality that can be off-putting. In the US,
where most rehab is based on 12-step and the disease model of addiction,
recovering addicts and drug workers are starting to think that there is another
way.

One new message is that recovery is a process of growing up best prompted by
brief interventions, not by a daily schedule of meetings about emotions. The
recovering addict has to look outward at life, not inward at him or herself.
Recovery is not sustainable unless the addict gets a life outside drugs and also
outside drug recovery programmes.

At the most extreme end of the “get a life” message , Dr Jeffrey Schaler,
author of Addiction is a Choice completely rejects the disease model and scorns
12-steps for telling clients that they have to turn their lives over to “a
higher being” .“What kind of disease is this for which the best possible
treatment is religion?” he says.

Another 12-step dissenter is Dr Stanton Peele, a psychologist who believes
that taking drugs is a sign of immaturity and that most people will “mature
out” of it. There are some studies to support this, showing that most Vietnam
veteran heroin users stopped using it on their own, and that most self-reported
alcoholics recover or cut down without the aid of rehab or support groups.

In his book Seven Tools to Beat Addiction, he says that given the right
skills to get jobs, housing and relationships, anyone can beat addiction.

This is all very well if you had a good life before addiction took hold, but
what if addiction is all you have ever known? “If people have no life skills,
what is the incentive to stop taking drugs?” asks Dr Peele. “Addiction
treatment is preoccupied with the nature of the substance involvement rather than
with the person’s relationship to self, others, and the world.”

So if rehab based on “working on yourself” does not help, what does? Dr
Peele cites clinical evidence for techniques such as Brief Interventions,
Community Reinforcement Approach and Motivational Interviewing. “These help people
deal with the major areas of their lives without resorting to drugs or alcohol.
We do this by enhancing the responsibility and self-efficacy of the client.”

But this requires self discipline and restraint, which don’t appear to be
part of the addictive mindset. Isn’t it just a glorified version of “Just Say No.
”? “Are you asking me if it is easy,” says Dr Peele. “No, this is about
fixing a life, not curing a ‘disease’.”

More radical still is the notion that most addicts will “mature out” of
their addictions. If this is the case, should we be treating people with
addictions at all?

It is becoming increasingly clear that approaches to drug treatment need to
be more flexible. Dr Emily Finch, a psychiatrist, says: “It’s not a simple
question of one model or one form of treatment fitting all. The focus is on treat
ing the individual, with all their incumbent needs, not just on treating the
addiction.”

Doherty, should he make it through this rehab, has a lot more going for him
if he manages to stay clean. Supermodel girlfriend, successful band, mass
adoration — according to Dr Peele this should increase his chances of permanent
recovery. If he can cope with the temptation all credit should go to Doherty —
and not to the 12 steps that he might be tempted to throw himself down.

THE 12 STEPS

THE HEART of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step guide are the original
self-help testimonies of the society’s earliest members. Step one: admit that you have
a problem. And when your guard is down, let in the “power greater than
ourselves” and “seek through prayer and meditation to improve your conscious
contact with God, as you understand Him”.

By step 12 you will not only be stone-cold sober, but also one who turns the
other cheek: “Make direct amends to all persons you have harmed

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 15, 2005 at 12:34:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Francis,

First I need some education.  Is bourgeois a marxist term or a premarxist
term?

As for, “A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go
back
in history.”, I think you exclude the enormous variety of any human
experience but, more to point, the issue is not the state of the individual but, how
they are viewed within society.  And then we must separate how one may be viewed
and what acts can be taken against them.  There is no doubt in my mind the
harrison narcotic act in the US and other similar acts and conventions that
mandated narcotic and other drugs as taxed and then illegal and then further
defined any act relating to obtaining the drug as illegal and punishable by long
prison sentences and further that those persons using drugs are not only tracked
by their acts but, by testing of their bodies for the presence of drugs in
order to identify and punish them/force them into treatment has resulted in
greater prejudice towards and stigmatization of drug users.  It is this
stigmatization and prejudice that results, in my opinion, to significantly increase the
psychiatric disorders in the drug using population and more simply to create
an inhumane state of endless punishment that in itself aggravates and makes
worse the condition of the drug user and drug use, marginalizing users in society
in a manner similar to the status of homosexuals, blacks and jews in states
where they are/have been marginalized and legislated against.  This is a
terrible matter. And it is to break abruptly this entire system that I have heralded
ibogaine for so much of my life.

Howard

In a message dated 2/15/05 12:25:39 AM, GardenRestaurant@comcast.net writes:

Hi Howard !!

This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ” bougeois
” .

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs
or alcohol.

1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems
of drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled  offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a
dead body.

In China  there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go back
in history.

God bless

Francis  ( ex drunk 🙂 )

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From: Lavindin@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] off the list please
Date: February 15, 2005 at 9:45:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please take me off the mailing list my mail box is way to full and I have had enough.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Dutch heroin trials find better outcomes in those with prior abstinence based treatments (!?)
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:53:48 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 11:56 PM
Subject: Dutch heroin trials find better outcomes in those with prior abstinence based treatments (!?)

Matching of treatment-resistant heroin-dependent patients to medical prescription of heroin or oral methadone treatment: results from two randomized controlled trials. Blanken P, Hendriks VM, Koeter MWJ, van Ree JM, van den Brink W. Addiction (2005) 100: 89-95

Dear Colleagues,
This re-analysis of the Dutch heroin trials* shows that for most patient variables there was no difference in the proportion of ‘responders’.  The study randomised complex, ‘resistant’ opioid dependency cases to either standard oral methadone or medical heroin prescription, injected or nasal forms, depending on individual’s usual route of administration.  The factors examined included level of education, hospitalisations, psychiatric history, living arrangements, employment, cocaine use and previous abstinence based treatment.  Although overall results were significantly better in the heroin groups, only one of these factors was associated with a difference in treatment outcomes when heroin was prescribed.  The group reporting a history of abstinence based treatment had a defined ‘response rate’ in those randomised to ‘medical’ heroin of 61% versus 39% in the oral methadone group.  This is highly significant both statistically (p=0.0003) and also from a dependency point of view.  The finding appears to be corroborated since the response rate to standard methadone treatment was substantially lower in those who gave a history of having any abstinence based treatment (24 vs. 38%).

The authors speculate about this finding but no firm conclusion is reached. Workers in the field will be familiar with a group of ‘failed’ NA/AA subjects who often take methadone reluctantly at low doses and for short periods.  Some can be our most frustrating patients, expressing guilt, depression and other negative feelings towards what they consider a poor option, despite the potential and evident benefits.

The study patients all had limited responses to traditional treatments available in Holland, including oral methadone.  The mean age was 39; 80% were male and there was a high degree of psychiatric co-morbidity.  Overall the ‘response’ rates in this trial*, were 25% for the oral methadone group and 45% for the others using the Addiction Severity Index (ASI) to 40% improvement levels.

It is depressing for outsiders (and possibly embarrassing for our British colleagues) that the UK has had thousands of patients prescribed injected heroin or methadone for decades, yet it is the Dutch who performed the first large randomised trial of this treatment.  It is to the credit of the Addiction journal that it was prepared to publish this item despite its traditional avoidance of items of this nature.  Maybe we will soon be reading a section on harm reduction!

In a report from Canadian Press dated 9th Feb 2005, a clinical trial has been approved by Health Canada in which 158 Vancouver addicts will be prescribed pharmaceutical-grade heroin for 12 to 15 months. A second site is being readied for the North American Opiate Medication Initiative (NAOMI) in Montreal, expected to open in April, and Toronto will be added shortly after that.

It now appears possible, or even likely, that banning heroin in the 1950s ‘sent the wrong message’ to young people.  It certainly denied medical patients the benefits of medical heroin in most countries.  Far from eliminating heroin problems, the bans have been associated with rampant spread of illicit heroin use.  It may be that the bans have contributed to the problems, in part by permitting easy access for minors as well as encouraging hasty and unsupervised use of drugs of uncertain purity. America is still unravelling the mayhem associated with prohibition of alcohol.  It is to be hoped that we will be more scientific and methodical in undoing the many problems associated with heroin prohibition in western countries.  Although many factors are still uncertain, these trials, injecting rooms, NA and other self help groups, legal diversion, decriminalization and education are all pieces in a larger puzzle of how to reduce drug use as well as reduce the harmful consequences of such use. Australia has scored many successes regarding tobacco and alcohol.  Other drugs should follow and society will be the better and more prosperous for it.

Comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm

Blanken P, Hendriks VM, Koeter MWJ, van Ree JM, van den Brink W. Matching of treatment-resistant heroin-dependent patients to medical prescription of heroin or oral methadone treatment: results from two randomized controlled trials. Addiction (2005) 100: 89-95

*Original report: van den Brink W, Hendriks VM, Blanken P, Koeter MWJ, van Zwieten BJ, van Ree JM. Medical prescription of heroin to treatment resistant heroin addicts: two randomised controlled trials. BMJ 2003;327 310-0

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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:18:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin

Hi,

Can someone please tell me if it is possible to OD on Heroin and for it not to show up on an autopsy report? What factors are at work?

Thanks,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OD on Heroin
Date: February 15, 2005 at 8:00:37 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

Can someone please tell me if it is possible to OD on Heroin and for it not to show up on an autopsy report? What factors are at work?

Thanks,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] .
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:40:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 15 February 2005 11:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] .

Sorry the sound was when Ali/4Men Rumbled.

Hey Nick,

I don’t think people would lie as much if it were
legal.  People do what they have to do to not feel
sick.

As far as it being a choice,  I guess it was, but
it  really doesn’t seem like it when in the middle of
it though.  “No Sick, No Sick, No Sick” preoccupies
too much time and effort.  Too much wasted
energy…that wouldn’t happen if it was legal.

Heroin is deadly they say.  If you had to od on a drug
in the ER you couldn’t pick a better drug.
Also, when legal, the dose potency and supply are
realiable and consitant, so they don’t die.

I don’t think choosing to do Illegal Heroin is a
reasonable idea, for me.  But I think from a ‘don’t
tread on me’ perspective, I’d rather as a tax payer
pay for that person to get as much heroin legally as
they want so they can be as productive a member of
society as possible.  That would be way cheeper then
funding their  criminal education in prison.

What I hear from you is: you see things in Black &
White, and you feel I must pick a side or I am not
feeling or living up to your potential? is this
correct?

Hope you’re doing well.

-Jason

Hi Jason,

I’m pretty good. Had a nice Valentines with my girlfriend, Steven didn’t
show up and whisper stuff about her in my ear. I agree heroin should be
legalized.

I’m not asking you to pick a side or live up to my expectations. You don’t
rant, that’s enough for me, though I’m also cool with a bit of ranting. It’s
not that I see everything only in black and white, it’s just that I’m active
by nature and I make decisions and to do that I have to let go of the greys
a little. So that’s what I do. It’s not always perfect.

Nick

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:08:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yea Nick, it does. I guess being a junkie/ex junkie myself, I am defensive about it. I empathize with every one who is addicted to anything because I’m the same way. LOL  Right now I’m addicted to coffee and one hits. I smoke, but I never have more than 2.755 grams of herb at any time so Uncle Salty won’t give me the chair or nothin’. They might come over and drag me outta the house and jack boot me, but I’m willin’ to take that risk.      Randy

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] .
Date: February 15, 2005 at 6:06:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry the sound was when Ali/4Men Rumbled.

Hey Nick,

I don’t think people would lie as much if it were
legal.  People do what they have to do to not feel
sick.

As far as it being a choice,  I guess it was, but
it  really doesn’t seem like it when in the middle of
it though.  “No Sick, No Sick, No Sick” preoccupies
too much time and effort.  Too much wasted
energy…that wouldn’t happen if it was legal.

Heroin is deadly they say.  If you had to od on a drug
in the ER you couldn’t pick a better drug.
Also, when legal, the dose potency and supply are
realiable and consitant, so they don’t die.

I don’t think choosing to do Illegal Heroin is a
reasonable idea, for me.  But I think from a ‘don’t
tread on me’ perspective, I’d rather as a tax payer
pay for that person to get as much heroin legally as
they want so they can be as productive a member of
society as possible.  That would be way cheeper then
funding their  criminal education in prison.

What I hear from you is: you see things in Black &
White, and you feel I must pick a side or I am not
feeling or living up to your potential? is this
correct?

Hope you’re doing well.

-Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:43:26 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 23:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Ms Iboga
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter

Okay Julie, apologies accepted.

Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hunderds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a statal system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?
These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.
When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see  why I use the example of homosexuality?

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discrimanotory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy,

Hi Peter,

Could I ask if your position on ibogaine has now changed? And, if so, what is it now?

Thanks

Nick

an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.
This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink  can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )
The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether  when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

pc

At 09:09 -0800 13-02-2005, Ms Iboga wrote:
Hi Peter,

My apologies for the misunderstanding…I guess I
mis-read that paragraph.  I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hmmm correction
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:33:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hello All,

Last 1min30sec are Dr.M*a*s*h,

http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-3436.html

Also, if you want to hear a bwiti song on the
radio,
call 1-800-580-0Tom and ask to be Blown Up African
Tribal Style. lol  Sometimes ridiculous just comes
out
of nowhere 🙂

Hope ya’ll had a Good V day too
Cheers,
J

 

___________________________________________________________

ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 15, 2005 at 5:28:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 18:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just
a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this.<

I am doing this Nick because I highly disagree with your opinions about
opiates and people who use them. I am perfectly fine with you
stating your
opinions- that’s not the issue at all. My beef is your prejudice against
“junkies” and opiates and the notion that you would be perfectly within
reason to have the cops drag junkies out into the light of day and force
them to change their ways.
(sorry, I deleted that original message with that statement, but
I’m sure I
could still dig it out of the deleted box if you insist on telling me you
did not write that.)

Hi Preston,

I’m not prejudiced against junkies. I didn’t say that I wanted to cops to
drag junkies out into the light of day, though it’s an interesting metaphor.
I believe in awareness, yes. I like the light of day.

Look, it’s obvious you’re just going to keep ranting at me, and that’s
because you don’t know me, least that’s what I figure. Why don’t you just
call me up and talk about it. Maybe that would be better. You can get me on
+44 7950 204557, I’m on UK time. Or leave me a number, I’ll call you. Seems
easiest.

Nick

Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain,
that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.<

Thanks for the mollification Nick, but who’s to say what pain is valid
enough for opiate use? Only physical pain? It’s not ok to use opiates for
any other pains? How ’bout for recreational use? How ’bout those who only
use it on weekends, for fun? (They do exist and don’t all turn
into raging
addicts.) How about those who use opiates as a crutch to get
through their
day? Is that ok with you Nick? Where do you draw the line, and
grant your ok
to opiate use? Just with my pain, or with all pain? What
constitutes pain in
your mind? Would you kick the literal crutch out from under
someone if you
didn’t think their pain or reason for using said crutch was
valid, to force
them to deal with life on the terms you think people should deal with it?
From everything I’ve read from you, like:

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just
a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the
shit out of
me. I like to take a position.<

you come across to me to be quite the judgemental authoritarian and that
Nick is what bothers me about you. And yes, this is just my
opinion, and you
are entitled to yours as well- but disagreements are sure to
follow each and
everytime I see you write something like the above. I’d like to see you
write a whole paragraph without using the word “you” in it and
personalize
what you say, and quit including me in your assessments of life and how
things should be. You wrote “just getting along through
compromise and some
tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and
leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some
drug.” How in
the hell you think you know what “it” leaves ME or anyone BUT YOU
is a lot
of what bothers the heck out of me about you and what you write here
constantly Nick.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So
please get
this.<

It’s not the stopping that terrifies me Nick, it’s the idea that some
prohibitionist maniac can kick in my door and shoot me dead and get away
with it so long as he/she claims it was all in the name of a War on Some
Drugs and Users. It’s the idea that my doc might move away and leave me
stuck having to convince another doc that I’m in pain and need help. It’s
the idea that some people look down at others and say that
because they bore
them they should change their ways. That bit doesn’t terrify me
so much as
really irritate and aggrevate me.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 11:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the
ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to
really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

No, of course I’m not saying that. Preston, I don’t really
understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m
just a flesh
and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you.
It upsets me
that you do this. Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again
that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that
this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying
to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I
would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please
get
this.

Nick

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the
ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just
a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the
shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your
right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti
all day long
is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only
because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way
appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of
their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a
position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t
mean that my
judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this
position in
the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this
life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end.
I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing,
in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a
different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take
another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience
it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the
creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with
everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing
which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact
with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your
life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 15, 2005 at 4:55:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Randy,

I’ve never been a junkie. I’m not claiming to know what a junkie’s position is. I just see heroin addiction as a choice not to feel, sometimes necessary, sometimes not. I’m not against junkies at all. To be honest, the only thing I don’t like about heroin addiction is the lying. If you’re addicted to a painkiller I think it’s good you admit this, at least to yourself, ideally to others too. I don’t like all the junkie fantasies and glamourising of a drug which simply stops you feeling. If you wanna use, fair enough, but be honest. I’m addicted to a painkiller. That’s basically my position. I’ve nothing against junkies at all. Does this help?

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 16:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position

Nick, I’m curious. Have you ever been a junkie? If not, how do you know what a junkies position is? You may have said so and I missed it, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from with an open mind. My provider wanted me to read a book called the 4 Agreements, and the premise is being open to what everyone says, and to not play into the negativity of others, along with a lot of changing your self talk and false beliefs. Kind of a spiritual RET/RBT concept. It’s pretty deep and it took me 5 months to get to it, but well worth the read.
Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:24:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard !!
This is a kind of marxist view of addiction as a creation of the ” bougeois
” .

In my humble opinion as soon man discover the potential properties of
alcohol or drugs to create a state of euphorie or bliss: we found addiction
I don’t see why we should make a distinction beetwen an addict to drugs or
alcohol.
1600 BC we have already Egyptian texts reffering to the social problems of
drunkness .

Hinduism has the largest following in India, and in the Hindu scriptures
drinking is referred to as one of the five heinous crimes, which include
murder and adultery.The ancient Tamil poet, Thiruvalluvar, whose work
entitled  offers some foundations for ethical values in society, also
condemns alcohol, calling it a social evil and equating a drunkard to a dead
body.

In China  there is archeological evidence of alcohol production 7 000 years
ago. Early Chinese literature includes many references to alcohol. Dynasties
appear to have fallen as a result of alcohol. The historical record clearly
suggests that, at different times, governments have acknowledged
alcohol-related problems and have used policies to prevent these problems.
For example, the Emperor Yu (2205 – 2198 BC) imposed an alcohol tax to
reduce consumption.

A drunk is a drunk and an addict is an addict as far as we can  go back in
history.
God bless
Francis  ( ex drunk 🙂 )

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen

Dear list,

A brief discussion appeared on addict-l list concerning the history of the
concept of addiction and I am providing a quote of Peter Ferentzy.

Howard

In a message dated 2/14/05 7:27:59 AM, pferentzy@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

Could you provide a bit more information?  Why bourgeois individualism?

OK, Howard, but this is something I’ve written so much about I don’t
know where to start. The addiction concept is about 200 years old. In
timing, at least, it emerged with the onset of developments such as
industrialization and the Enlightenment. I use the term “bourgeois” to
identify the ascending economic class, which would eventually take over
and, as rulers do, dominate culture. The middle classes, so dominant in
North America, can be taken as extensions of the “bourgeois” grouping.
If you’re interested, you might want to look at Harry Levine’s Discovery
of Addiction (though maybe you’ve already read that). In short,
capitalism & free enterprise went hand in hand with a new conception of
individual rights, and people were more likely to be perceived as
individual economic ‘units’, or self-starters, beholden to no one,
rather than as extensions of communal and traditional obligations.
In such a setting, free will becomes important, to the point where
humanity here in the West took a closer look at “unfree will”
(addiction) than at any other time in human history.
This is not to say that in the past people were blind to struggles with
temptation. And, yes, king Solomon could discuss a drunkard in ways that
resemble today’s addiction concept. But it’s not the same. As Harry L.
pointed out back in the 70s, while the behavior itself may be similar,
the way we interpret the inner experiences is new: it’s now a subjective
journey, wherein an addict can only be identified as such when he
confesses to experiencing “cravings”, and a “loss of control”. The type
of self-control needed to function as a middle class/bourgeois
individual (recall Weber’s discussions of how such persons would put off
pleasure in order to save money) generated a keen collective inquiry
into any form of loss of control, notably with alcohol and later with
opiates.

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hmmm
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:15:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello All,

Last 1min30sec are Dr.M*a*s*h,
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-3436.html

Also, if you want to hear a bwiti song on the radio,
call 1-800-580-0Tom and ask to be Blown Up African
Tribal Style. lol  Sometimes ridiculous just comes out
of nowhere 🙂

Hope ya’ll had a Good V day too
Cheers,
J

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] history of addiction further to Peter Cohen
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:33:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear list,

A brief discussion appeared on addict-l list concerning the history of the
concept of addiction and I am providing a quote of Peter Ferentzy.

Howard

In a message dated 2/14/05 7:27:59 AM, pferentzy@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

Could you provide a bit more information?  Why bourgeois individualism?

OK, Howard, but this is something I’ve written so much about I don’t
know where to start. The addiction concept is about 200 years old. In
timing, at least, it emerged with the onset of developments such as
industrialization and the Enlightenment. I use the term “bourgeois” to
identify the ascending economic class, which would eventually take over
and, as rulers do, dominate culture. The middle classes, so dominant in
North America, can be taken as extensions of the “bourgeois” grouping.
If you’re interested, you might want to look at Harry Levine’s Discovery
of Addiction (though maybe you’ve already read that). In short,
capitalism & free enterprise went hand in hand with a new conception of
individual rights, and people were more likely to be perceived as
individual economic ‘units’, or self-starters, beholden to no one,
rather than as extensions of communal and traditional obligations.
In such a setting, free will becomes important, to the point where
humanity here in the West took a closer look at “unfree will”
(addiction) than at any other time in human history.
This is not to say that in the past people were blind to struggles with
temptation. And, yes, king Solomon could discuss a drunkard in ways that
resemble today’s addiction concept. But it’s not the same. As Harry L.
pointed out back in the 70s, while the behavior itself may be similar,
the way we interpret the inner experiences is new: it’s now a subjective
journey, wherein an addict can only be identified as such when he
confesses to experiencing “cravings”, and a “loss of control”. The type
of self-control needed to function as a middle class/bourgeois
individual (recall Weber’s discussions of how such persons would put off
pleasure in order to save money) generated a keen collective inquiry
into any form of loss of control, notably with alcohol and later with
opiates.

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 7:58:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

and getting enough money by stealing lawnmowers and copper tubing to make that one big score of ibo. i’m not an ibonaut but my 13 yrs of h were filled with petty hustles , pilfering medicine cabinets of friends. writing bad scripts, tellling my friends i needed bond money for my lady and shooting
it up and dope anyone who was stupid enough to front to me.  oh, don’t forget ripping off your homies crib when he got busted and pawning all his shit. then there’s this computer thing , i supposed i could’ve boosted one from the local jr. college since i bagged several vcr machines.  i would have made ibo but i had a hole in my arm, ankle, wrist and thigh where all  the money went . maybe a provider would’ve fronted a trip and then i could pay him back when i finished paying my bondsman his weekly installments. i must have been a pond scum junkie cuz no way i could’ve put Ibo money together in the day. if it had been free, i would
have signed on between ripping people off and selling pool room powder for junk. now that i’ve got bucks,  i’ve got a benzo jones with a slight opiate twang so Ibo’s out. no magic pill for this low life. back to the Ibo, i would have had to go c/t to pay for it. maybe even now.  gotta love h, it gives one purpose in life. ron
wishing all that peaceful path to what appears to be a wonderous state of being.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job, whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: New York drug users yield some of their secrets to researchers. Funds/dealing.
Date: February 14, 2005 at 6:08:29 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:52 PM
Subject: New York drug users yield some of their secrets to researchers. Funds/dealing.

Golub A, Johnson BD. How much do Manhattan-arrestees spend on drugs? Drug and Alcohol Dependence (2004) 76;3:235-246

Dear Colleagues,

This report analyses responses from over 2000 detailed questionnaires concerning specific sums paid for a variety of drugs in the 30 days prior to being arrested in Manhattan between 1998 and 2002.

The authors state in their results summary: “Among 2000-2002 arrestees, median drug expense in the past 30 days varied widely with frequency of use and drug-user type. Infrequent marijuana-only users spent as little as $5, daily marijuana-only users spent about $600. Arrestees who used both heroin and cocaine spent over $1000. Estimates with the 1998-1999 data were about half as large”. “The amounts expended on drugs based upon the most recent episode(s) of drug consumption were almost twice as large as estimates derived from asking arrestees how much they had spent for drugs in the past 30 days.”

While corresponding research is rare elsewhere, we do know that most heroin users applying for treatment in Sydney have been injecting (a minority smoke or sniff) almost daily and commonly between A$25 and A$100 (~US$600 – $2400 per month).  Cocaine is much more expensive in Australia and is not seen in the form of crack at all.  Injected cocaine is nearly always in binge-type use and is apparently uncommon outside of inner Sydney.  Since retention in good quality treatment is high, and heroin/cocaine use is known to reduce dramatically while in treatment, the actuarial losses to the illicit market and reductions in law enforcement costs must be substantial, quite apart from humanitarian benefits and lessened viral disease transmission.

On related matters from New York, Davis, Johnson and other colleagues show that in upper, eastern Manhattan almost half of all drug users are also currently involved in some part of drug distribution.  Those involved in dealing drugs were more likely to have HIV, higher incomes and to be in current drug treatment, but to have poorer education, housing and employment status than those not involved.  While more women than men are involved, men are more likely to be involved in direct selling.  [Citation: Davis WR, Johnson BD et al. Gender differences in the distribution of cocaine and heroin in Central Harlem. Drug Alc Dependence (2005) 77:115-127]

Comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:49:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sara, I think you mean free will coming from an addicts point of view when stopping the addiction. For me, I used opiates most of my life to make me feel better in some way or other. Pain, depression, anger, love….., etc., made me feel uncomfortable. All I knew was when I was opiated, I felt “better.” For a while. I fell in love with the euphoria of ALL opiates. Well, after years of eating, snorting, smoking, shooting dope I became so tore down from conning DR’s, being a middle man in dope deals, generally spending all my cash, and putting all my effort into keeping my jones at bay, that I just didn’t want to be addicted anymore. My choice. I have things that I want to accomplish that I just couldn’t seem to get done addicted. God knows that I gave it enough time to find out if opiates were fucking me up or not. I love the feeling of opiates, I just don’t want to have to be a slave to the grind anymore. I have to admit that the reaction that I got from my family as I nodded out at the table in front of my nephews and my Mom had something to do with it. I never could find that fine line between being half sick or nodding out. I never had enough dope. If I’d have had 5 kilo’s of heroin, I would have been wondering where to get more. I just couldn’t take it any more. All I knew was I had to find a way that actually worked at keeping me from being so sick when I tried to stop. I tried everything that came down the road to no avail until I found Ibogaine. Somehow Ibogaine has interrupted my addiction enough to let me think for myself instead of thinking about my addiction all the time. I’m loving my state of mind now, besides I’m sure there will be plenty of dope out there if I change my mind about it. I really don’t think I will this time. Thanx for asking Sara.    Peace and love to you and your family.  Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Agenda details NYC Ibogaine Forum
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:27:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have included some additional details for the Agenda for the NYC Ibogaine
Forum.  These should be some very interesting sessions.  I am still awaiting
some presenter details and they will hopefully be added in a day or two.

http://ibogaine.org/nyc2005.html

Howard

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:18:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 17:45
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use 
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job,
whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

“It’s all about free will and choices” ,   Randy , as you already know we have choices only when we are aware of them, that is why Howard’s work to educate
The pubic about this choice of getting clean with minor withdrawals with Ibogaine is so important in my opinion, the knowledge about the possibilities should be out in the open like all the other drugs on the market. what do you think, Randy?

Free will is also a state of awareness of the mind .complex , in what extend your free will is your free will. Randy, is like tuning a music instrument,
You only can tune it if you learn how to listen to a tuned instrument, I never learned to tune a guitar so how do you think I can have the free will?
I wish I could at this moment know what you had years to practice for, it is quite the same with tasting a good wine, if you never drink any how would you know
How good wine should taste. Tell me.

S.

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 1:11:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this.<

I am doing this Nick because I highly disagree with your opinions about opiates and people who use them. I am perfectly fine with you stating your opinions- that’s not the issue at all. My beef is your prejudice against “junkies” and opiates and the notion that you would be perfectly within reason to have the cops drag junkies out into the light of day and force them to change their ways.
(sorry, I deleted that original message with that statement, but I’m sure I could still dig it out of the deleted box if you insist on telling me you did not write that.)

Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.<

Thanks for the mollification Nick, but who’s to say what pain is valid enough for opiate use? Only physical pain? It’s not ok to use opiates for any other pains? How ’bout for recreational use? How ’bout those who only use it on weekends, for fun? (They do exist and don’t all turn into raging addicts.) How about those who use opiates as a crutch to get through their day? Is that ok with you Nick? Where do you draw the line, and grant your ok to opiate use? Just with my pain, or with all pain? What constitutes pain in your mind? Would you kick the literal crutch out from under someone if you didn’t think their pain or reason for using said crutch was valid, to force them to deal with life on the terms you think people should deal with it? From everything I’ve read from you, like:

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.<

you come across to me to be quite the judgemental authoritarian and that Nick is what bothers me about you. And yes, this is just my opinion, and you are entitled to yours as well- but disagreements are sure to follow each and everytime I see you write something like the above. I’d like to see you write a whole paragraph without using the word “you” in it and personalize what you say, and quit including me in your assessments of life and how things should be. You wrote “just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug.” How in the hell you think you know what “it” leaves ME or anyone BUT YOU is a lot of what bothers the heck out of me about you and what you write here constantly Nick.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please get
this.<

It’s not the stopping that terrifies me Nick, it’s the idea that some prohibitionist maniac can kick in my door and shoot me dead and get away with it so long as he/she claims it was all in the name of a War on Some Drugs and Users. It’s the idea that my doc might move away and leave me stuck having to convince another doc that I’m in pain and need help. It’s the idea that some people look down at others and say that because they bore them they should change their ways. That bit doesn’t terrify me so much as really irritate and aggrevate me.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 11:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

>Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

No, of course I’m not saying that. Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this. Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please get
this.

Nick

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your
right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti
all day long
is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a
position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t
mean that my
judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this
position in
the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this
life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end.
I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing,
in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the
creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with
everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing
which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact
with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your
life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism
Date: February 14, 2005 at 1:05:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/14/05 9:50:37 AM, hannah.clay@ntlworld.com writes:

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it works best at a low dose
but you’d have to look into that.

Hi Hanna,

I am not sure where you got the idea that the optimum dose for buprenorphine
is 2mg.  The optimum dose is individually determined on a patient by patient
basis and may be up to 32mg though I think most patients are dosed between 8mg
and 16mg. These doses are for maintenance and if you meant 2mg was the optimum
dose for tapering I will have to look into that.

Regards as always,

Howard

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 12:47:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A perfectionist/control freak or suck the juice out of life, so to speak,
and if that is included in that person’s character, then so be it, it is not
all bad or all good anyways.<

I agree Sara, that it is seldom if ever “all good” or “all bad,” no matter who or what the situation (with exceptions of course-which I’m sure I could come up with were I so inclined, but I’m not).
But I have little patience for Nick’s message at all, other than for the “enjoy your life,” which I agree with fully- except I don’t think Nick means for me to enjoy my life the way best suits me, but rather, what I get from him (correct me if I’m wrong Nick, please) is that I cannot enjoy my life, not REALLY, unless I do it his way.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hey Preston,

Nick said , “Enjoy your life” =that  is very positive idea don’t you agree?

Then “It may be your last !”= he doesn’t say “it is”  so may be or may be
not, that mean there is a higher judgment to come, which will decide if
there is last , first or second, but who are we to tell? There are different
ways of thinking that is why God is great!, the mastery of mystery.
It is very positive to think it is last, that can motivate a person to be
A perfectionist/control freak or suck the juice out of life, so to speak,
and if that is included in that person’s character, then so be it, it is not
all bad or all good anyways. It wasn’t my idea in the first place,
If it was up to “me” I would take you all to shambahlalala.

Be well,

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 12:54
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long

is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my

judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in

the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Free will
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:44:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/14/2005 6:14:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard
Not just yes, but, HELL YES. I see Ibogaine as a way to keep from losing everything. If every addict knew that he could stop before he lost his family, job, whatever, with Ibogaine, at least the ones who really wanted to stop would have a better chance of doing so. It’s all about free will and choices.        Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A junkies position
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:27:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, I’m curious. Have you ever been a junkie? If not, how do you know what a junkies position is? You may have said so and I missed it, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from with an open mind. My provider wanted me to read a book called the 4 Agreements, and the premise is being open to what everyone says, and to not play into the negativity of others, along with a lot of changing your self talk and false beliefs. Kind of a spiritual RET/RBT concept. It’s pretty deep and it took me 5 months to get to it, but well worth the read.
Randy

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Happy V.D.
Date: February 14, 2005 at 11:21:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Happy Valentine’s day all…

A perfect day to go to some stylish restaurant or bar and mutter “I had her” walking by annoying couples or in a very concerned voice say to the boyfriend while his love is in the bathroom “Look, I know it’s none of my business but I used to go with her, that girl gave me the worst case of the clap EVER. Just have it checked out pal.” It’s more effective if you can get her name first. Quickly sneak away.

Or perhaps spread a bit of love around. Oh, why not?

Nick ‘n Preston, Dana ‘n Peter… friends instead of foes… it brings a tear to my eye.

Just the thought of Peter and Dana doing the ibo together, wrestling each other on the ground in a friendly (and manly) manner gives me faith in humanity.

“Wow, Dana, all we need is hugs, not drugs! I’m a different man now. Gosh, all these years I’ve been hiding behind my brilliant mind, never really in touch with how I feel. All for the sake of making clever arguments.”

“That’s right…. And Peter, that was very wrong of me to yell at you. I’m sorry. It all seems so silly now. All these years of acting the fool. Perhaps I need to think more before I run my mouth off.”

“I love you man.”

Indeed…

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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna and Bupe Q
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:56:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m going through my backlog so sorry this is out-of-date.  I just wanted to
add that I had problems both keeping the tablet under my tongue and the
taste made me sick.  However I found that if I take it lying on my back this
solves both these problems!  Dunno why!  So I take mine when I wake up so
I’m laying in bed.

Just in case it could help anyone!

Hannah 🙂

—– Original Message —–
From: “Kurt Finguerra” <kosmocraterhater@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Donna and Bupe Q

Hi List

Has anyone come off using subutex (buprenorphine??) Im really want to
stop
using and really can not afford ibogaine i have done the sub before
stayed
clean  for a year and started using again.  I wondered what dose to start
with
last time i started at 16mg i thought this was to high.

What and how much are you using?. And are you sure you started with 16mg?.
Its totally possible, though induction usually begins a bit lower, as the
bupe ‘displaces’ the dope, done’, whatever is in there. Dope is a bit
easier
to switch from. You were on it for a year, so you know how it works kinda.
If you have some left over suboxone and your asking how to detox yourself
or
switch, i would do like this:
Do ‘last’ bag(s) of dope. wait 12 hours or until truly feeling withdrawl.
wait until the goosebumps come . If you take bupe to soon, even though you
think your sick(like few hours after last fix when nose starts runnin),
you
will feel kinda bad as the bupe will ‘kickout’ the heroin from the
receptor
site. I have found that waiting till i was sick enough and the bupe
actually
brought a little relief instead of sickness. (12 or so hours for me). I am
now on Suboxone(though I did do ibogaine) and prescribed 6mg a day. This
took about a week to totally work, meaning that i still felt a little off
now and then. I just had a half bundle or 3to4 80’s a day habit, nothing
huge, so It wasn’t horrible. individual variations applicable 🙂

Now, if we suppose a bundle(100-200mgs of dimorphine) a day for a few
months
is the ‘size of habit’, and the dope is decent, I would, after the 12
hours
has passed, take ONE 2mg suboxone(or subutex preferrably at induction then
switch to subutex). If you feel ok to take another in a few hours, ok.
A total of 6mg the first day is good and on day two, 8 mg is ok.
you can go to 12 if need be but 8 I have found is around where the ceiling
effect kicks in.(bupe seems to have a ceiling on the amount of effect it
produces. Its only a partial MU agonist, which partly explains this. So it
means that above a certain dose, bupe dosen’t do anything more(in simple
terms).
I don’t know, tell me donna, how did 16mg  a day make you feel before. Why
did you think it was too much?. Make you tired? Does bupe give you a
feeling?(like say methadone) I find it doesn’t, largely. Any euphoric
feeling is a ‘flicker’ and then is only noticed at all only f you “look
for
it”. It doesn’t do much for me except what its supposed to. Cuts out the
obsessivess over heroin and crew. Cuts out the urge to go do it. And I
know
if I did, I wouldn’t really get a rush or a nod cuz the bupe beats the
heroin out of the recptor site. So I don’t do it. Haven’t yet in a month
and
a half I’ve been on it. Did Ibogaine in sept. Used again in october(19th)
and got on suboxone again  in nov. I was on 16 mg last year but I didn’t
take it, just sold it and did herpin instead. Am on 6mg a day and feel OK.
Still obsess a bit about dope and gang, and Methadone DID do a better job
then bupe, but I can’t afford methadone, that why I don’t get back on. Was
on it for nearly a decade at 120mg a day(clinic) and got off and
withdrawls
were NOT that bad.(not like a tornado of pain like a heroin kick, fast and
fierce, but like a monsoon, slow  and neverending,) Tolerable with bupe
after 5 days off the methadone and have kicked DONE with and without bupe)
surprisng to most folks but its true.
Now the 6 years of xanax/klonopin @12mg a day, that was bad, and that was
same time as methadone.

###Sublingual absorbtion rates for suboxone are around 50-70% of
buprenorphine is absorbed. almost none or 0.03% of the nalaxone makes it
in.
Even if 1 or 2% made it through, it still wouldn’t have an effect.
Anyway, the sublingual route by-pass the metabolic mayhem of first pass
liver metabolism. In most opiates and in bupe, this “kills” 50% or more of
the dose. With buprenorphine, some metabolism is ok, cuz the metabolite
norbuprenorphine is kinda active, but most of the effect is from bupe.
Now, ANY OTHER ROUTE besides sublingual (with suboxone and due to
nalaxone,
parenterally is NOT an option and will be like narcan), is no good. Even
holding the tablets between cheecks isn’t effective, as buccal absorption
rates(meaning cheek) are only 20-30% and the vessels from the cheek cause
first pass metabolic destruction of bupe. Orally this is true as well and
the amount the even passes the gut wall is only around 15-20%. and half
that
is killed right off the bat from the liver(same with the cheeks
absorbtion).
So, I said all this cuz key to sucess with suboxone is the proper dosage
and
proper dosage won’t be achived without proper administration/absorbtion.
Like when the tabs sit under your tounge and your mouth fills up with
spit,
don’t swish around and cause the tabs on the sublingual floor to become
dispersed into the mass of saliva, which usually only ‘touches’ the
cheeks.
Just keep the spit out of the way and let the tabs disolve with as little
disruption as possible. Now that doesn’t mean SWallow the spit, as A
DECENT
AMOUNT of bupe has collected in there anyway despite best efforts and its
better for it to asorb through the cheeks or to put the whole mass under
your tounge in 15 minutes/after the tabs dissolve, than to send it to your
stomach where its gonna pass unabsrobed or if it is absorbed, killed off
by
the liver.  So, in other words, keep tabs under tounge and don’t swallow
for
10 to 15 minutes. You should feel a difference.

I would appreciate  any
advice.
There it is. Sorry it goes on and on. Please respond with any questions.
No
I’m not a doctor, as you can tell but am willing to say that my opinion is
worthwhile.

love donna

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:51:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Suboxone = Subutex + Naloxone

Basically its Subutex but with this stuff added to stop you hitting it up.

Both block the effects of gear…to some extent!
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna

HI
Thanks for getting back to me I used subutex before does the suboxone block effects of gear and do you know if you can take it with subutex????????????
love donna

From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:49:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Donna,

I assume you’ll be doing this through your local clinic?  Have you spoken to them yet?  Especially bearing in mind there’s a 6 month waiting list up here!  They will be able to guide you.

Having said that I took things into my own hands regarding dosage because I too though I was given too much.  They put me on 12mg to begin with.  Through my own experimentation I’ve found that 4mg seems to do the trick.  To avoid a habit you could use Sub for up to 3, maybe 4 weeks, reducing as you go.

Will you be on daily supervised dosage?  This can make it difficult to change dosage as you like.  But you should be able to talk through this with your Doctor so you don’t have to be secretive.  Play it by ear.  In a perfect world I’d wait 12hrs (or until you’re rattling but not seriously sick) then take 4mg and wait an hour or 2 and if necessary up your dose.

I’ve read that the optimum dose is 2mg and it works best at a low dose but you’d have to look into that.

I’m not an expert, this is just my own observations.

As for coming off.  First you need to stabilise yourself and concentrate on staying clean which is why they don’t like you to come off the Sub too quick.  You could swap to Naltrexone after 3 weeks I suppose but I don’t know much about that.

I think first you really need to talk through all your concerns with your Doctor or Clinic nurse.  But I agree they do seem to want to put us on high doses with no regard for the future i.e coming off the Sub!  If its any help I reduced my dose drastically and felt no ill effects but I haven’t stopped altogether-I take about 1mg a day.  Its more a psychological crutch than anything else.  I’m considering swapping to Naltrexone just to help me stay clean but I need to find out more about it first.

Btw, sorry this is totally out of date but I’ve been busy and I’ve got 1270 list emails to go through!!!

Let me know how you’re doing and anything else I can help you with.  Also please remember these are my personal experiences.  I’ll let you know how I feel when I finally stop em for good!

Love Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] more on hypoism

Hi List

Has anyone come off using subutex (buprenorphine??) Im really want to stop using and really can not afford ibogaine i have done the sub before stayed clean for a year and started using again.  I wondered what dose to start with last time i started at 16mg i thought this was to high.  I would appreciate any advice.  Jasen keep up the good work you are my inspiration this is definately going to be your year

love donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:06:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard

Thank you that makes me feel alot better

Love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 9:01:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 14/02/2005 10:22:41 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
Just doing something nice for someone, without expecting anything in return, can make me feel like “a millionaire”.
You sound such a lovely, nice person I wish more people were like you

love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:59:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Nick

I think thats whats happened to me maybe not grown up, but grown out of wanting to feel numbed out and thats how I personally feel on H, my feeling, emotions feel supressed and I dont like it.

Love Donna

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:56:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Sara

Thanks for that it has made me feel much better.

Love Donna

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:41:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 14 February 2005 11:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

No, of course I’m not saying that. Preston, I don’t really understand why
you constantly seem to reconstruct what I say and try and make me out to
either be a fascist or some kind of demon. I’m neither. I’m just a flesh and
blood individual, same as you, who has opinions, same as you. It upsets me
that you do this. Besides this, I’m sure I’ve said over and over again that
I’m totally fine with people using opiates to stop physical pain, that this
is what they’re for. So I don’t understand why you keep trying to make me
out to be some kind of ogre or something.

I think the idea of stopping drug use terrifies you. And that’s ok. If I
were constantly in pain and having to block it out with drugs I would also
be scared if I had to stop. But I am not suggesting you stop. So please get
this.

Nick

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the
easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your
right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti
all day long
is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a
position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t
mean that my
judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this
position in
the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this
life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end.
I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing,
in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the
creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with
everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing
which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact
with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your
life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

/]=—————————————————————
——=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[
/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Jamilah” <jamilah@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson
Date: February 14, 2005 at 8:31:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The substance we used was incredibly active. We had a small amount of powder, and we found we would “get off” on ingesting only a few granules at a time. In fact I remember about 5 of us tripped everyday for about a week on what looked to be a couple grams of material. We were told it was made in West Virginia, and that it would make someone with Parkinson’s feel “normal”, and would only work as a hallucinogen if you didn’t have Parkinson’s. Maybe it was Biperidin?
Peace,
Jamilah
—– Original Message —–
From: Pipetman9@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson

In einer eMail vom 11.02.2005 06:38:35 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt jamilah@erols.com:

Thank you for just clearing a mystery that goes back to my teens in 1969, we did a drug that was billed as a “a drug that treats Parkinson’s disease”. This powdered substance had our perceptions so whacked out, it was extremely memorable, different from any other LSD or mescaline. It was like the funnest drug I’ve ever done. Never knew what it was. I bet it was Trihexylphenidyl  now that I’ve looked it up. Are you experienced?
ciao,
Jamilah

here are some good parkinson links for those interested,
http://www.mindiskey.com/ParkinsonsRefs.html

toxic oxidation products of dopamin itself may cause this disease,  this reaction is catalysed by accumulation of iron in the brain, you need dopamin to feel good but too much of it in combination with iron and polyunsaturated fatty acids that form free radicals in the brain may first kill parts of the brain that have high dopamin concentrations before they make you demented.

If it was trihexy you must have taken a high dose?
I know someone who used  trihexyphenidy in normal dose but not in high dose, in normal dose you may feel some euphoria, he said he felt much better,
incidentally there is an alternative theory about depression as cholinergic hyperactivity of the nervous system, called the Cholinergic
hypothesis of depression, so anticholinergics can in fact be antidepressant drugs.

high dose of all anticholinergics is of course a very strong hallucinogen comparable to Datura or Fly agaric fungus,
Biperidin is another antiparkinson medication that seems to have similar effects as it also is reported to be abused.

regards, Juergen

I enclose some literature references:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Psychiatr Prax. 1988 Mar;15(2):53-6.
[Biperiden abuse as a partial factor in polytoxicomania]
[Article in German]

Schulte RM.

Psychiatrische Klinik II, Universitat Ulm, Bezirkskrankenhaus Gunzburg.

We found 16 patients (15%) taking the anticholinergic biperiden because of its psychotropic action, occasionally, rather frequently or regularly, among a subgroup of 120 drug-dependent patients (drugs of the barbiturate and amphetamin types) out of a studied total of 194 imprisoned male addicts. These biperiden abusers suffered without exception from polytoxicomania associated with drug dependence and alcoholism. Most prominent was drug dependence on drugs of the morphine type. We could not prove a case of an isolated “primary” abuse of biperiden. Direct medical prescription was a rather secondary factor in procuring this preparation, in contrast to analgesics, tranquilisers, barbiturates and clomethiazol. Increase of biperiden abuse is due, on the one hand, to a generally noticeable tendency to polytoxicomania, and on the other hand to a change in Federal German drug prescription rules effective 1 August 1986 according to which fenetylline hydrochloride, a sympathomimetic, is now subject to medical prescription. Other centrally acting anticholinergics were unknown among this group of patients and were not abused. The results are discussed on the basis of available literature

Actas Luso Esp Neurol Psiquiatr Cienc Afines. 1991 Nov-Dec;19(6):298-303.
[Dependence on anticholinergics among schizophrenics. Iatrogenic disease or self-medication?]

[Article in Spanish]

Chamorro Garcia L.

Servicio de Psiquiatria, Hospital General, Insalud de Guadalajara.

This report concerns two schizophrenic patients who had ingested a biperiden overdose between 8 and 14 mg per day. This drug had been prescribed to treat extrapyramidal side effects of neuroleptics. Once the ingestion was suppressed, both patients complained about anxiety, discomfort and depression. These symptoms disappeared when reintroducing the biperiden. Both patients had a previous record of alcohol and cannabis abuse. One of them had also a recorder of sporadic consumption of other drugs such as heroin, amphetamines and hallucinogens. The predominant psychopathology was of the negative type. Through these cases we intend to support the likelihood of a cholinergic hyperactivity in the negative schizophrenic symptoms.

Leg Med (Tokyo). 2004 Oct;6(4):233-41.

Development of a screening method for the most commonly abused anticholinergic drugs in Jordan; trihexyphenidyl, procyclidine and biperiden.

Hadidi KA.

Forensic Medicine and Toxicology Division, Faculty of Medicine, University of Jordan, Amman 11942, Jordan. khadidi@ju.edu.jo

A sensitive and rapid method for the simultaneous determination of three commonly abused anticholinergic drugs in Jordan; trihexyphenidyl, procyclidine, and biperiden in plasma and urine has been developed using solid phase extraction and GC-MS. Linearity was established from therapeutic to fatal concentrations of the three drugs; 5-300 ng/ml in plasma, with correlation coefficient r(2) > or = 0.9978 and 10-800 ng/ml in urine r(2) > or = 0.9993. Recoveries were in the range of 86-92% and intra-day and inter-day relative standard deviations (n = 6) were in the range of 6.6-10.3% for the three drugs at three different concentrations in plasma and urine. The base peak m/z 98 for trihexyphenidyl, m/z 84 for procyclidine, and m/z 98 and 218 for biperiden, and m/z 339 for papaverine (internal standard) were monitored at selective ion monitoring; their retention times were 8.10, 8.67 and 8.92 min, respectively, and 14.79 min for the internal standard with analysis time of 16.75 min. The limit of detection of 0.5 ng/ml was attained for trihexyphenidyl and procyclidine, while for biperiden 2.0 and 1.0 ng/ml in spiked plasma and urine, respectively. This method has been applied to forensic and authentic samples taken from abuser and patients using these drugs. The method will offer the clinicians and the legal authority the right diagnosis regarding the anticholinergic involved in any case of abuse with less than 1 h per sample (plasma or urine) from the time of receiving.

Therapie. 2003 Nov-Dec;58(6):541-7.
[Misuse of trihexyphenidyl (Artane, Parkinane): recent trends]

[Article in French]

Frauger E, Thirion X, Chanut C, Natali F, Debruyne D, Saillard C, Pradel V, Reggio P, Micallef J.

CEIP de Marseille (PACA-Corse, Centre Associe), Laboratoire de Sante Publique, Faculte de Medecine, Marseille, France.

Recent observations suggest the existence of trihexyphenidyl abuse linked to its hallucinogenic and euphoric effects. In order to determine the importance of this practice and the characteristics of those involved, a study based on data from the Provence-Alpes-Cote-d’Azur and the Corsica health reimbursement system was carried out. Individuals from these regions affiliated to the French health reimbursement system who had a prescription for trihexyphenidyl (Artane, Parkinane) reimbursed between January 1, 2001, and February 15, 2001, were selected. The delivery of prescriptions was monitored over a 9-month period. In total, 3028 subjects were selected. A subgroup comprising 2.1% of subjects with deviant behaviour was identified by factorial analysis and compared with the subgroup without deviant behaviour. The subjects with deviant behaviour were young and mostly male. The dosage of trihexyphenidyl was higher in these subjects (28 mg/day versus 7 mg/day) and a greater proportion used benzodiazepine and high-dose buprenorphine compared with those without deviant behaviour. The number of prescriptions delivered was higher (23.0 versus 7.7) as well the number of different physicians (4.9 versus 1.5) and pharmacies (5.0 versus 1.3) for those subjects with deviant behaviour. This study confirms the abuse and dependence potential associated with trihexyphenidyl use and the need to increase the supervision of this drug

Med Clin (Barc). 1991 Jul 6;97(6):239.

[Hallucinosis due to trihexyphenidyl abuse]

[Article in Spanish]

Palao DJ, Arauxo A, Bernardo M.

Psychiatr Serv. 2000 Jul;51(7):928-9.
Misuse of anticholinergic drugs by people with serious mental illness.

Buhrich N, Weller A, Kevans P.

Department of Psychological Medicine, University of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. buhrich@mail.usyd.edu.au

This study assessed misuse of anticholinergic drugs in a population of 50 patients with serious mental illness who were assertively managed by a community-based outreach team in Sydney, Australia. One-third of the subjects reported having misused anticholinergics over the previous month. All anticholinergics were misused, and trihexyphenidyl (benzhexol) was misused most frequently. Most subjects misused at least one other drug as well. On direct questioning, the reason given most frequently was “to get high”; on indirect questioning, reasons were related more to peer participation and feelings of futility. Marginalized patients living in the community are vulnerable to the misuse of anticholinergic drugs

Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1987 Jan;75(1):91-4.
Trihexyphenidyl abuse: therapeutic implications for negative symptoms of schizophrenia?

Fisch RZ.

Trihexyphenidyl (THP) and other antiparkinsonian drugs are known to be substances of abuse. This is true both in abusers of other substances and in chronic schizophrenics, the latter being infrequent abusers of other drugs. Most reports on the abuse of antiparkinsonian drugs among schizophrenic patients warn against the possible harm of this self-medication. The present article describes the different effects of THP on both schizophrenic and non-schizophrenic abusers. The subjective experience in most chronic schizophrenic patients who abuse THP is positive: they claim that THP makes them feel and function better. In the light of these findings, the author suggests that research on the possible benefits of THP in contrast to the potential harm in chronic, residual schizophrenic patients is warranted.

Br J Psychiatry. 1984 Sep;145:300-3.
A study of benzhexol abuse.

Crawshaw JA, Mullen PE.

The occasional abuse of anticholinergic drugs for their psychotropic and specifically hallucinogenic properties has been known for over a century, but benzhexol (trihexyphenidyl) abuse has only recently attracted attention in the literature, mainly in case reports. This paper reports on a study of 21 benzhexol abusers. They were a young, single, and disadvantaged group of polydrug abusers with poor employment, educational, and social skills, who abused benzhexol mainly for its euphorogenic properties. The two major diagnostic categories were antisocial personality disorder and schizophrenia. An unexpected finding was cognitive impairment persisting after acute intoxication.

Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1984 Jun;69(6):538-42.
Trihexyphenidyl dependence.

McInnis M, Petursson H.

Trihexyphenidyl, a synthetic anticholinergic, is frequently used concurrently with neuroleptics to control extrapyramidal side effects. We present two case reports of trihexyphenidyl abuse which concur with the increasing concern expressed regarding the abuse potential of trihexyphenidyl. In one of the cases a double-blind, placebo-controlled withdrawal was conducted and monitored on a number of physiological parameters and the Hamilton Anxiety Rating Scale. A recognizable withdrawal syndrome followed discontinuation of the drug. In addition to the abuse potential it is suggested that dependence liability be considered in maintenance therapy with trihexyphenidyl and other antiparkinsonians.

J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1983 Aug;3(4):263-4.
High dose trihexyphenidyl abuse with psychological dependence.

Sofair J, Campion J, Angrist B.

Br J Psychiatry. 1982 May;140:473-4.
Trihexyphenidyl (Artane) abuse: euphoriant and anxiolytic.

Kaminer Y, Munitz H, Wijsenbeek H.

Ann Emerg Med. 1981 Feb;10(2):98-100.
Abuse of antiparkinsonian drugs.

Craig DH, Rosen P.

Abuse of the antiparkinsonian agents for their hallucinogenic and euphoriant effects is likely more prevalent than reported. Two clinical cases are presented, with discussion of symptoms and response to a diagnostic trial of physostigmine.

J Clin Psychiatry. 1980 Oct;41(10):351-4.
Abuse of the antiparkinson drugs: a review of the literature.

Smith JM.

A review of the literature indicates that the anticholinergic antiparkinson drugs can be abused by some patients to achieve pleasurable effects ranging from a mild euphoria with increased sociability at the lower doses to a toxic anticholinergic psychosis with disorientation and hallucinations at higher doses. Trihexyphenidyl may have a greater potential for abuse but there has been no systematic data on this issue. While the abuse of these drugs may not be widespread, it is yet another factor arguing for their judicious use.

JAMA. 1978 Jun 2;239(22):2365-6.
Abuse of antiparkinsonism drugs. Feigning of extrapyramidal symptoms to obtain trihexyphenidyl.

Rubinstein JS.

Many physicians may be unaware of the abuse potential of antiparkinsonism medications. A case report suggests that the deliberate abuse of these drugs may be considerably more widespread than has been hitherto believed. Patients may feign extrapyramidal symptoms to obtain antiparkinsonism agents. Physicians should exercise greater caution when prescribing these drugs.

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 7:54:17 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston,

Nick said , “Enjoy your life” =that  is very positive idea don’t you agree?

Then “It may be your last !”= he doesn’t say “it is”  so may be or may be
not, that mean there is a higher judgment to come, which will decide if
there is last , first or second, but who are we to tell? There are different
ways of thinking that is why God is great!, the mastery of mystery.
It is very positive to think it is last, that can motivate a person to be
A perfectionist/control freak or suck the juice out of life, so to speak,
and if that is included in that person’s character, then so be it, it is not
all bad or all good anyways. It wasn’t my idea in the first place,
If it was up to “me” I would take you all to shambahlalala.

Be well,

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 12:54
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy
life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of
just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief
system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to
some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of
me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no
doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long

is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of
performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their
dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have
inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some
people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are
both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my

judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in

the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are
capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just
the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be
back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80
years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson
for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position
which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who
created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is
up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other
people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more
lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may
be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 7:00:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote, kinda confusing me, again >Shit, man, do you just want to stay in a fear position your whole life?<

What are you talking about? I’m not in a position of fear, only now I’m going to be even more careful about what I admit to on this list with you around. That’s not fear, that’s intelligence.

Why
not take a position of moving toward what you fear, check it out, is it
really so scary?<

Proving my point very well, in that you’ve no clue about me or anything I’ve done in my life, yet you’re willing to make blanket judements about me and my life.

Am I really so terrible?<

I don’t know Nick, not having met you face to face, but I do think that what you are writing on this list is, yes, very terrible – but then, I only speak for me, knowing full well I can’t speak for anyone else, which is what I get from your messages, that you know what is best for everyone else and seem to think you have the right to demand certain behavior of others or they’re not living right, and yes, that’s terrible in my mind.
.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 22:49
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

>I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
>dare to judge, to lay my trip on people,<

sigh.
Boy did you get something a LOT different than I did from my own ibogaine
experiences Nick.
Ibogaine “taught” you to be judgmental? That’s about the worst
advertisement I’ve seen yet for ibogaine Nick, the very worst. I seem to
remember this philosopher typeperson, some say a messiah type,
saying at one
point, “judge not lest ye get judged,” or something along those lines in
Aramaic (sp?), and “don’t throw stones in glass houses,” or “those who
haven’t sinned cast the first stone,” and other things like this,
you know,
about not judging others. Again, I’m seriously glad you aren’t in
any way,
shape or form in control of my life Nick and never will be. Very,
very glad.
And again you’ve reminded me to watch my mouth around you because
I’d never
trust you for even one second with anything, as you might someday use it
against me in some misguided notion that you’d be “helping” me because
you’ve judged me in need of your help. That’s just so scary, that
you are of
this mindset. It sounds so, I don’t know, demonic or something.

Peace and love,
Preston

Shit, man, do you just want to stay in a fear position your whole life? Why
not take a position of moving toward what you fear, check it out, is it
really so scary? Am I really so terrible?

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 6:54:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.<

So Nick, are you telling us that your way is the only way to really enjoy life?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 6:09:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/14/05 4:35:09 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:

Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock
bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get
clean?????)

No, if ibogaine were available to drug users at any point in the time/use
line.

Howard

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:27:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: shelley krupa [mailto:skrupa20022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] here I go again!

Hey list! Everythings set for my session on feb 19th!! !Ive never done it in a hotel setting, only a clinic & at an angels home. Any suggestions? Ive set up music,earplugs,face mask for room darkening.Also got my sound machine with lots of flowing water options,and essential oil aromatherapy too.Doing an adjoining room at my providers request.Kinda weird that Ive never met the sitter,but he’s experienced I hear &” real sweet”.Vibes in hotels can be real weird sometimes.You’d think at trip # four I’d be confident,guess my ego is trying to hold on to some control,HA! I’m wanting support from you folks,please. I have total confidence in this provider,the rest is up to the iboga gods.Got two weeks off work to recoup & integrate back slowly without the pressure of my work persona. I’ll keep yall posted ,love shell

Hey Shelley,

Taking ibogaine always scares me, thus far anyway. I think it’s part of the whole experience. I breathe, which is always good, but I still get scared. Your ego will let go when it feels safe to do so. Mine does, that’s my experience.

Let us know what happens.

Nick

Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:15:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 10:54
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

Dear Nick,

That’s exactly want I meant, we all have a different believe system which makes us unique, it doesn’t worry me if this is my only life time or not,
I know where I’m standing for and I respect and adapt to my ancestors teachings and wisdom.
Just doing something nice for someone, without expecting anything in return, can make me feel like “a millionaire”.

Love,

Sara

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:13:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 14 February 2005 10:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

 

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 10:34
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 13/02/2005 23:21:49 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get clean?????)

No, I don’t think so. Some people hit rock bottom and still don’t stop and some just want to keep their job/ teeth/ wife/ study/life… and stop .

Lately I had a lady who wanted to stop because she nodded out against a heater and her back was burnt black, she was in a lot of pain but desired to stop
And she did it here and she is still clean since few months.

S.

A lot of people just grow up whilst on heroin and hit a place where they just do want to stop. That’s my experience.

Nick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 5:06:21 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 22:49
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE
judgmental, to
dare to judge, to lay my trip on people,<

sigh.
Boy did you get something a LOT different than I did from my own ibogaine
experiences Nick.
Ibogaine “taught” you to be judgmental? That’s about the worst
advertisement I’ve seen yet for ibogaine Nick, the very worst. I seem to
remember this philosopher typeperson, some say a messiah type,
saying at one
point, “judge not lest ye get judged,” or something along those lines in
Aramaic (sp?), and “don’t throw stones in glass houses,” or “those who
haven’t sinned cast the first stone,” and other things like this,
you know,
about not judging others. Again, I’m seriously glad you aren’t in
any way,
shape or form in control of my life Nick and never will be. Very,
very glad.
And again you’ve reminded me to watch my mouth around you because
I’d never
trust you for even one second with anything, as you might someday use it
against me in some misguided notion that you’d be “helping” me because
you’ve judged me in need of your help. That’s just so scary, that
you are of
this mindset. It sounds so, I don’t know, demonic or something.

Peace and love,
Preston

Shit, man, do you just want to stay in a fear position your whole life? Why
not take a position of moving toward what you fear, check it out, is it
really so scary? Am I really so terrible?

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:59:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 10:34
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 13/02/2005 23:21:49 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get clean?????)

No, I don’t think so. Some people hit rock bottom and still don’t stop and some just want to keep their job/ teeth/ wife/ study/life… and stop .

Lately I had a lady who wanted to stop because she nodded out against a heater and her back was burnt black, she was in a lot of pain but desired to stop
And she did it here and she is still clean since few months.

S.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:54:23 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

Hi Sara,

Yes, that’s fine with me. Part of my position is that I interact with other people’s positions. And, personally, I don’t believe in having more lifetimes, that’s a bit of a junkie position to me. Enjoy your life, it may be your last! That’s my position.

Nick

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 14, 2005 at 4:34:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 13/02/2005 23:21:49 GMT Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.
Do you think (as many people have said) that the person has to hit rock bottom and lose everything before they will see the light and want to get clean?????)

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Allison/Ibogaine and Hep C
Date: February 14, 2005 at 3:28:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for your support & information Randy.  All help gratefully received and counting down to better times soon I hope,  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Saturday, 12 February 2005 4:20:17 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Allison/Ibogaine and Hep C

Allison, I’ve been meaning to tell you something that the Doc.’s all told me when I went through the Interferon treatment, all 3 of them, SMOKE HERB, as much as you need!!! They would never admit that they told me that, but they did. Marinol doesn’t work near as well. I know how you feel, I felt real bad at the end too. Hell, I felt bad the whole time, it was just worse at the end. I have to admit that being on Methadone helped too, as I didn’t have the energy to be able to keep my addiction at bay any other way. If I had the information then that I have now, I would have done the Ibogaine first, and then checked my blood work to see if I still needed to do the Interferon blues. Trip and learn, or live and learn, or something like that. I won’t shut up ’till we have that information about Ibogaine and Hep C.     Randy

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 14, 2005 at 2:06:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jim wrote “Most places will not ship to anyone in the U.S. Others like Indra.com will not ship any P.O. Box, which makes me wonder why they bothered to charge my card in the first place.”

Because they are not honest or reliable people , is that strange?
Van: Jim Hadey [mailto:jimhadey3@yahoo.com] 
Verzonden: maandag 14 februari 2005 2:37
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe

Hi Betty,

I know the situation your in.  I too live near the Canadian Border.  It would be nice if you had a friend who you could trust in Canada.  What I did is get a P.O. Box, I think Mail Boxes Ect.  That way they don’t know that your suite number is really a P.O. Box number.  Of course it cost more than a P.O. Box at the post office.  I paid something like $62 for 3 or 6 months.  Too bad it is illegal in the U.S. forcing people to spend more money or brake the law.  If you get a hotel room start with two days and leave when able.  But I, as well as others, will strongly advise against taking it alone.  Have someone with you ( called a sitter ) regardless of where you take it.  Most people get sick and lose their lunch.  If you should do this while laying on your back unable to move, you could drowned in your own puke.  Also, you may need help getting to the bathroom, getting a drink, food, etc.  Usually you arn’t hungry for a few days and you usually go several days with little if any sleep.  But it is important to drink water and keep yourself hydrated.  Keep in the room things like pears, oranges, apples and fresh fruit for when you come off the ibo.

Most places will not ship to anyone in the U.S. Others like Indra.com will not ship any P.O. Box, which makes me wonder why they bothered to charge my card in the first place. He will then ask you to provide more ID.  Right, in the day and age of ID theft he wants you to send in a water or gas bill or copy of your drivers license.  He doesn’t mention this until AFTER he accepts your order and charges you card ( I just don’t like the guy ),  But there is one company that will sell the HCL but only for Canadian citizens.  Which is why I would say I have no debit or charge card will you accept a money order (some will accept Western Union but it is a little bit more expensive.  When  you receive it you can get a hotel room (spend a little more and get a quiet one if necessary), or you can take your chances bringing it across the border.  If I were to do something like that I would hide it or put it into some kind of empty bottle that had health food stuff in it.  It can be a felony if customs want to push it.  However, if you use the right company to buy from, there is only one that sells the HCL which from what I understand is better but cost more.  Try reaching them by phone or e-mail ( make a new Yahoo.com account only with Yahoo.ca  don’t tell them it is a P.O. Box.  Tell them that you have no debit or credit card and if they would take a P.O. money order or any mail order for that matter.  For you address use your P.O. Box with Name, Suite, City, prov. and zip.

Ibo has a harder time with those using methadone or bupe due to fact that they are longer lasting.  May I ask how many mg of bupe are you taking and how long you have been taking it?

There are others on here that could tell you more about taking ibo to get off bupe and there is a lot of experience on this forum.  If you have any questions drop me a line addressed to jimhadey@ yahoo.com.  Seems that I don’t have enough time to read all the letters.  But of all the web sites I have visited I have found this to be the best.  There are many people that will share their problems and solutions with you.  Many speaking from years of experience.
Hope I helped, wishing you the best of luck,

– JIM
Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off 
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult 
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding 
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks


Betty

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 13, 2005 at 11:02:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Shell,

Go shelly baby,I will light a candle for you.
Make sure someone is with you,..hey.

If anyone in Queensland Australia needs a sitter
contact me, I will help and sit with you,be there
for you and nurse you.

Thankyou Sara, I will call soon.

Go Shelly baby!     Yeah!
love,
Jasen 😉
—– Original Message —–
From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:05 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] here I go again!

Hey list! Everythings set for my session on feb 19th!! !Ive never done it in a hotel setting, only a clinic & at an angels home. Any suggestions? Ive set up music,earplugs,face mask for room darkening.Also got my sound machine with lots of flowing water options,and essential oil aromatherapy too.Doing an adjoining room at my providers request.Kinda weird that Ive never met the sitter,but he’s experienced I hear &” real sweet”.Vibes in hotels can be real weird sometimes.You’d think at trip # four I’d be confident,guess my ego is trying to hold on to some control,HA! I’m wanting support from you folks,please. I have total confidence in this provider,the rest is up to the iboga gods.Got two weeks off work to recoup & integrate back slowly without the pressure of my work persona. I’ll keep yall posted ,love shell
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter
Date: February 13, 2005 at 10:13:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Re: [Ibogaine] PeterPeter wrote >If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see  why I use the example of homosexuality?<

Well, while I tend to agree with you in most ways Peter, I myself do know from experience that under today’s system of prohibition, it is a very hard road to toe while strung out (call it what you will- addicted, habitual user, self-absorbed, whatever), doging prohibition’s enforcers while trying to scrape enough money together each and every day just to feel “not sick,” and life really can be extremely difficult to live like that- and yet as difficult and outright hellish as it can get, many of us still have trouble stopping. Again, I fully agree with you that we should be allowed to live and take any drug we so desire, including opiates and everything else really, and shouldn’t have to worry about stopping, but we do unfortunately. With this in mind, I am totally behind ibogaine, in that it sure was a nifty, amazing, beautiful way to completely cut my opiate use to miniscule levels (without my stupid pain issues, I would not have continued taking opiates actually).
This is why people might have a desire to have a way to “cure” the situation when people find themselves really prefering not to use drugs rather than go to jail, lose their home, etc, etc, and yet find themselves unable to find the “will power” (which I’m not entirely convinced is what’s needed anyway, having gone through this stupid situation again and again my own damned self) or whatever it is to quit taking the drugs.
The way we’ve set up the situation these days, it’s hard really to come up with the one sure way of doing and even looking at this situation, because we all unfortunately are not even getting the same results or repurcussions from our drug uses and abuses.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.<

Bingo, and now that I’ve written the above, I see you go on to say much the same thing, in different words.

But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink can open some eyes.<

Bingo again.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Peter Cohen
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Ms Iboga
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter

Okay Julie, apologies accepted.

Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hunderds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a statal system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?
These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.
When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see why I use the example of homosexuality?

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discrimanotory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy, an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.
This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink  can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )
The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether  when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

pc

At 09:09 -0800 13-02-2005, Ms Iboga wrote:
Hi Peter,

My apologies for the misunderstanding…I guess I
mis-read that paragraph.  I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

Julie

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: Jim Hadey <jimhadey3@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 13, 2005 at 8:37:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Betty,

I know the situation your in.  I too live near the Canadian Border.  It would be nice if you had a friend who you could trust in Canada.  What I did is get a P.O. Box, I think Mail Boxes Ect.  That way they don’t know that your suite number is really a P.O. Box number.  Of course it cost more than a P.O. Box at the post office.  I paid something like $62 for 3 or 6 months.  Too bad it is illegal in the U.S. forcing people to spend more money or brake the law.  If you get a hotel room start with two days and leave when able.  But I, as well as others, will strongly advise against taking it alone.  Have someone with you ( called a sitter ) regardless of where you take it.  Most people get sick and lose their lunch.  If you should do this while laying on your back unable to move, you could drowned in your own puke.  Also, you may need help getting to the bathroom, getting a drink, food, etc.  Usually you arn’t hungry for a few days and you usually go several days with little if any sleep.  But it is important to drink water and keep yourself hydrated.  Keep in the room things like pears, oranges, apples and fresh fruit for when you come off the ibo.

Most places will not ship to anyone in the U.S. Others like Indra.com will not ship any P.O. Box, which makes me wonder why they bothered to charge my card in the first place. He will then ask you to provide more ID.  Right, in the day and age of ID theft he wants you to send in a water or gas bill or copy of your drivers license.  He doesn’t mention this until AFTER he accepts your order and charges you card ( I just don’t like the guy ),  But there is one company that will sell the HCL but only for Canadian citizens.  Which is why I would say I have no debit or charge card will you accept a money order (some will accept Western Union but it is a little bit more expensive.  When  you receive it you can get a hotel room (spend a little more and get a quiet one if necessary), or you can take your chances bringing it across the border.  If I were to do something like that I would hide it or put it into some kind of empty bottle that had health food stuff in it.  It can be a felony if customs want to push it.  However, if you use the right company to buy from, there is only one that sells the HCL which from what I understand is better but cost more.  Try reaching them by phone or e-mail ( make a new Yahoo.com account only with Yahoo.ca  don’t tell them it is a P.O. Box.  Tell them that you have no debit or credit card and if they would take a P.O. money order or any mail order for that matter.  For you address use your P.O. Box with Name, Suite, City, prov. and zip.

Ibo has a harder time with those using methadone or bupe due to fact that they are longer lasting.  May I ask how many mg of bupe are you taking and how long you have been taking it?

There are others on here that could tell you more about taking ibo to get off bupe and there is a lot of experience on this forum.  If you have any questions drop me a line addressed to jimhadey@ yahoo.com.  Seems that I don’t have enough time to read all the letters.  But of all the web sites I have visited I have found this to be the best.  There are many people that will share their problems and solutions with you.  Many speaking from years of experience.
Hope I helped, wishing you the best of luck,

– JIM
Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

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From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter
Date: February 13, 2005 at 6:02:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Okay Julie, apologies accepted.

Why I make a reference to the ‘cure for homosexuality’? Because I see the philosophy driving such cures as the same as the philosophy driving the ‘cures for intensive drug use’.
For me it is all very clear and I understand that for you is it is not clear at all.

I am trying to work with the theoretical problems that the concept of ‘addiction’ bring and that is also why I approach all this in a theoretical way.
Once you think you see how the history of the concept of addiction played, and to what types of social practice this has lead, it becomes necesary to ‘deconstruct’ the concept of addiction and find out how exactly it was constructed in the first place, by whom and on what evidence. What behaviors were created into ‘addiction’ and what theoretical notions, available at the time, inspired this? Thats what I do.

Let me try another example. (Hoping I do not create even more confusion because no example is really good enough, or precise enough) The Bill of Rights was written in the America of the 18th century by people who owned hunderds of slaves. For them it was not clear as it is for us, that there is a contradiction in their thinking. How can you try to define a statal system that would ensure freedom for its civil population while enslaving millions?
These slave owners were of course part of their times in which black people from Africa were not seen as humans but as a sort of animal. One did not define human rights for these beings, they were not human to begin with.
So, if educated slaves from these days would support the version of human rights that excluded them, I would have told them that, in my view, they were seeing themselves thru the eyes of their masters. making any form of what I see as emancipation impossible.
When I look at the notion of ‘freedom’ or ‘human right’ these people used I can understand why they did not include black Africans. And I could fight them better.

I could go on , and discuss the concept of democracy and its history in the USA, where a blind horse can see that the USA has never had even a remote diluted version of democracy and now is further away from it even.

Now back to addiction. If one, like me, does not recognise this concept, one has a serious conflict with the psychiatric class and their notions that exist all around. If there is no such thing as a pathology called addiction, why would any one have any claim or desire to ‘curing’ it? Do you now see  why I use the example of homosexuality?

The social existence of the concept of addiction legitimises a vast discrimanotory system not unlike slavery.It forces the ‘addict’ to obtain ‘cures’, but the addict may resist -for good reasons-, but “we,psychiatrists acting in the name of a deep social prejudice, will force you to accept this cure”.

I used to see the ibo clan as part of that philosophy, an identification with the system that severely discriminates against them, forces them into miles deep of social misery and marginalisation.Do not think I do not know about the behaviour of intense and frequent drug use.I do. I speak to the people that here in this country are on the receiving end of a gram of heroin each day, if they so wish. I know how the security of heroin each day slowly and profoundly changes their lives and their possibilities, altho the social prejudice against them is not changed much.But because they improve so much, both physicall and spiritually, they are able to move freely into social space they had not entered for a long time.
Some hate the psychiatric and medical supervision, rightly so, and some even decide to go back to blackmarket heroin or methadone. But try to understand where I want to go.

Some one on this list wrote me that ibogaine was a kind of salvation for her, but the heroin in her heroin habit did not hurt her at all.The drug war destyroyed her, forcing her to leave her ways and seek a ‘cure’ which she found with ibo.
This is exactly what I say all the time. The drug war is not a war on drugs but on its users. Heroin, or any other opiate can be used almost without limit in both quatity and time, if proper food habits etc are chosen.Opiates are so non toxic it is hard to find anything better. For those who like or need opiates, it is a fabulous substance with in general less problems than the average marriage.

So once again, I do not have any personal problems with any of you. Or with your liking for ibo. It is the social context in which ibo has become what it is that I try to combat, in a rather radical way,thats true. But I consider the cruelty of prohibition and the medieval backwardness of the ideas behind ‘addiction’ as so terrible, that only a radical rethink  can open some eyes.

When you say

many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage

I know that. For me this is a proof of my accusations towards the system that ruins lives of opiate users and forces them into this imaginary ‘cure’ or ‘a break’ that modern days Inquisition has concocted for the unfaithful(= users of wrong drugs )
The hatred that these ‘wrong drug users’ receive or develop for themselves is a brutal and terrible thing that has no other ground than prejudice.So, I do have a serious problem accepting the core validity of people’s claims who ‘want’ to take a break. Most people will take a break or diminish or stop altogether  when they are not forced, if time has come.Or they won’t, which in my view is their right as well.

I am not forcing any one of you you try to see what I see, but at least-for me- it is a worthwhile attempt. And, I have to say, I learn because the attack on me, e.g. that I am to ‘mindy’ reminds me that I can not approach these things from a purely theoretical position, as if no real and very serious subjects are involved, more than a ‘social construction’ that can be dealt with in an unemotional theoretical way.

pc

At 09:09 -0800 13-02-2005, Ms Iboga wrote:
Hi Peter,

My apologies for the misunderstanding…I guess I
mis-read that paragraph.  I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 5:49:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people,<

sigh.
Boy did you get something a LOT different than I did from my own ibogaine experiences Nick.
Ibogaine “taught” you to be judgmental? That’s about the worst advertisement I’ve seen yet for ibogaine Nick, the very worst. I seem to remember this philosopher typeperson, some say a messiah type, saying at one point, “judge not lest ye get judged,” or something along those lines in Aramaic (sp?), and “don’t throw stones in glass houses,” or “those who haven’t sinned cast the first stone,” and other things like this, you know, about not judging others. Again, I’m seriously glad you aren’t in any way, shape or form in control of my life Nick and never will be. Very, very glad. And again you’ve reminded me to watch my mouth around you because I’d never trust you for even one second with anything, as you might someday use it against me in some misguided notion that you’d be “helping” me because you’ve judged me in need of your help. That’s just so scary, that you are of this mindset. It sounds so, I don’t know, demonic or something.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness ” of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 5:40:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Beautifully said Sara, very beautifully said.
Wish I’d put it this way but I didn’t. Darn it.
I realize this is a pithy going-nowhere reply, but I felt compelled to respond.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: Sara Glatt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness ” of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2005 19:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely.
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all,
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox 94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 5:30:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. <

LOL, YOU don’t care Nick? Again, LOL, thank goodness you’re around to put things into perspective for me. I’m glad you have the knowhow to tell me and everyone else what is and what isn’t “natural.”
What hubris. You never cease to amaze me.

Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.<

Again, LOL. I myself prefer to look at everything as a learning tool and teacher, and I can and do learn from everything Nick.

Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely.
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all,
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox 94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 4:28:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2005 20:59
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

Hi Nick,

If that position makes you a joyful human being then that is your right, no doubt.
But if anyone like to sit in a cave in India and sing OM Shanti all day long is his right, no doubt.
As long as we respect another man’s capability and their level of performance. because as such they have been created.

I don’t believe that one person is superior to another only because their dopamine/ serotonin  level is more balanced
Then another person. I do believe that people should be able to have inspiration and education to stimulate their intellectual abilities
But that can be done in so many ways. And maybe your way appeals to some people and that is just what they need right at that time of their lives,
Only for me not taking a position is the same as taking a position they are both position, as long as we have a physical body we have a position.

Loving kindness is the only position I want to have, it doesn’t mean that my judgment is turned off,  it is  judgment that makes me take this position in the first place.
I’m also limited with my physical limits and some of those addicts are capable of doing things, I can’t do in  a 100 years.

From my traditional background I learned to believe that this life is just the corridor to the life after , the life after last without end. I will be back here if I need to
Finish any unfinished work that my spirit should be processing, in this 80 years of life time we can learn so much, the lesson is a different lesson for each one of us.
So you will choose to take a position as such and I take another position which is not a position you see as a position but I experience it as one.
As long as I remember that every breath I take is thanks to the creator who created me with the ability to breath and it is the same with everyone else,
How many breathes per hour you take isn’t up to me the only thing which is up to me is my position.

Greetings,

Sara

From: Iboga Mama <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RUxPerienced?
Date: February 13, 2005 at 4:02:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter said he thought even partaking of the Ibogaine Interesting
Experience wouldn’t alter his subjective position that anchors his
thinking on the matter.

I’m not sure that assumption will/would hold up in practice.  It is
perhaps, how did the sandbagger put it?, a “mindy” approach to the
mystical.

And, for a counter-example, all of the social scientists who went and
“looked” at the hippie or commune or psychedelic cultural revolution
or whatever you wanna call it, were changed by the experiential
dimension of the participant-observation.

It would, I cerebrally offer, be likely to change something.

love from ny, rachel, ibo-wife

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 2:58:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 13 February 2005 19:17
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Hi Sara,

I guess one thing that iboga taught me personally was to BE judgmental, to dare to judge, to lay my trip on people, to move away from the easy life of just getting along through compromise and some tedious spiritual belief system that justifies all human behaviour and leaves you just a junkie to some meditation, some belief, some drug. That stuff bores the shit out of me. I like to take a position.

Nick

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 2:17:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

What I think I understand from the discussion  here,( maybe I’m wrong) is that  PC  accept that some people are what they are and should be accepted for that
No matter what is the reason  for them to be as such, and it isn’t for us to judge  what tools  have  them change their ways.
All ways are ways, some ways will be looked at as better ways then other ways but each and everyone of us has to follow a way in this physical body,
So let’s just except that for what it is. and if some of you have come across ibogaine that’s cool, but don’t become a  “Yahweh witness “ of ibogaine cause
It isn’t for everyone, just like every other way , if you are supposed to live a sober life that will happen to you no matter what, the awakening will happen  when it is suppose to happen with or without ibogaine, it is all up to you what path or way you have to follow/or not follow , and not up to the ibogaine to light your path in a way that you can see that you have a path but up to your understanding/or not understanding of the self /mind body spirit which lifestyle you sink in or walk.

In short, who are we to be judgmental/or in control of any body’s state of consciousness. Consciousness is a individual growing process and not a forced
Process from society.

On the other hand those who were addicted and became free of it think that it is a way that everyone should follow as a magic way to freedom,
But really you are the lucky one’s to feel that way, and for sure that you get your act together when you are not dope sick or broke and stressed out.

It is all about the true joy we have in our lives, if your life is better being clean then so be it and if not then so be it.

Both is human lifestyle and the key for any change is in the hand of the higher self, the connection we have with the universe.

The nice thing about Iboga experience is that you are reminded of that.

Greetings.

Sara

Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk] 
Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2005 19:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.  

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any 
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely. 
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s 
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are 
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as 
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current 
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine 
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t 
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal 
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit 
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem 
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense 
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both 
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all, 
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see 
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.



Peace and love,
Preston Peet

”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often 
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, 
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– 
From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan


Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom 
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to 
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person 
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational 
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.



—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

”you never know”.

Sara



—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan


— The Garden wrote:

> Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

> —– Original Message —–
> From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
>
> In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
> writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
> Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
> otherwise.
> Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
> is
> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
> to
> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
> to
> attach to.
>
> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination
>
> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
> not
> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
> unthinkable
> even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
> idea
> in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )
>
> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
> book
> about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
> USE
> IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
> mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)
>
> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
>
> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
> attribute
> healing to.
>
> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as
>
> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
> seek
> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
>
> or wife we hate.
> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as
>
> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
> countries
> for most (the rich excepted).
> I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
> getting
> rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.
>
> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
> and
> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
> defeatist
> voodoo ideology.
>
> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
> ciao
> pc
>
> PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
> Orleans
> gig.
>
>
> Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
> getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
> Randy
>
>
> — 
>
> ————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>
>



__________________________________
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Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo



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Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.

From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] here I go again!
Date: February 13, 2005 at 2:05:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey list! Everythings set for my session on feb 19th!! !Ive never done it in a hotel setting, only a clinic & at an angels home. Any suggestions? Ive set up music,earplugs,face mask for room darkening.Also got my sound machine with lots of flowing water options,and essential oil aromatherapy too.Doing an adjoining room at my providers request.Kinda weird that Ive never met the sitter,but he’s experienced I hear &” real sweet”.Vibes in hotels can be real weird sometimes.You’d think at trip # four I’d be confident,guess my ego is trying to hold on to some control,HA! I’m wanting support from you folks,please. I have total confidence in this provider,the rest is up to the iboga gods.Got two weeks off work to recoup & integrate back slowly without the pressure of my work persona. I’ll keep yall posted ,love shell

Betty Boop <betty_bupe@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off
bupe? i guess i’m a wimp but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult
than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding
treatment somewhere in Canada . Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

_________________________________________________________________
Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented MicrosoftŪ SmartScreen
Technology
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Start enjoying all the benefits of MSNŪ Premium right now and get the
first two months FREE*.

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From: “Betty Boop” <betty_bupe@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo for bupe
Date: February 13, 2005 at 1:29:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi list,

i am new here and I’m wondering if anyone had experienc using Ibo to get off bupe?  i guess i’m a wimp  but I’m finding the taper/detox more difficult than i thought it would be.

i live in new yk near Canadian border and i’m interested in finding treatment somewhere in Canada .  Montreal or Toronto would be cool.

Thanks

Betty

_________________________________________________________________
Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented MicrosoftŪ SmartScreen Technology  http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines  Start enjoying all the benefits of MSNŪ Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 1:14:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What I see is that Peter is taking a libertarian stance with drugs. That’s fine, very Dutch, and I support it. The Dutch had bullshit Calvinism rammed down their throats for generations and it’s great to see them get up and move in the opposite direction. One day they’re even gonna stop being so stingy too! Anyway, I’m being childish.

What I don’t see is any grounding, any connection to feelings. It’s just a mindy argument that makes sense for libertarian academics and wins adoration from a generation of individuals that don’t want to look at their drug-using behaviour. Yes, I’m just exercising my democratic right to use, struggling against the Oppression of the State that wants to control my behaviour. I’m OK! I’m justified. In fact, I’m actually a freedom fighter! Adopting this Us and Them belief pattern mimics the action of an opiate. The drug will push down feelings, it represses the influence of the body, it creates a duality – mind vs body. The belief does the same, it’s the mental version of an opiate.

Ibogaine is a drug that can show you Who You Are, and that person is not a junkie, that person is never a junkie. Really. Well, maybe one in one million but no more! It is not natural to reinforce the mind-body split. I don’t care if people have been using opium or other drugs of repression for aeons, that doesn’t make it natural. The movement towards holism is natural, the movement towards mind-body split is unnatural. That’s my take. Heroin is a learning tool but ibogaine is the teacher. The one leads to the other.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 February 2005 16:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely.
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all,
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

> Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

> —– Original Message —–
> From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
>
> In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
> writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
> Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
> otherwise.
> Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
> is
> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
> to
> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
> to
> attach to.
>
> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination
>
> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
> not
> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
> unthinkable
> even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
> idea
> in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )
>
> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
> book
> about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
> USE
> IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
> mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)
>
> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
>
> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
> attribute
> healing to.
>
> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as
>
> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
> seek
> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
>
> or wife we hate.
> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as
>
> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
> countries
> for most (the rich excepted).
> I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
> getting
> rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.
>
> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
> and
> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
> defeatist
> voodoo ideology.
>
> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
> ciao
> pc
>
> PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
> Orleans
> gig.
>
>
> Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
> getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
> Randy
>
>
> —
>
> ————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>
>

__________________________________
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter
Date: February 13, 2005 at 12:09:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Peter,

My apologies for the misunderstanding…I guess I
mis-read that paragraph.  I guess I am trying to
understand why you made the reference to the ‘cure for
homosexuality’ in the first place, and how it so
easily segued into Ibogaine. It seemed to me to be a
non-sequitor.

I don’t believe drug users should be persecuted
either.  Heroin maintenance for opiate dependency
seems like a great idea to me, as opposed to
methadone.  However, many opiate users would like to
either (1) take a break from using, or (2) cut down
their dosage.  As you have never been dependent on
opiates, you have no idea how hard this can be, both
physically and psychologically.

Julie

__________________________________
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To V through Preston
Date: February 13, 2005 at 12:00:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston !!
The boss should paid the fine if is decent. 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To V through Preston

I don’t make it to the Methadone Clinic as much as
I used to.

🙂

<starting Care Bears Record>…”Welcome to the
World of Care Bears, I’m the Cloudkeeper, and in the
Home of of Care Bears, Another Day of Caring Is
Beginning…”

[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 13, 2005 at 11:06:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Guess I don’t really know the whole story, I believe all drugs should be legal and available.

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any
way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely.
I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s
purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are
looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as
inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current
situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine
wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t
be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal
either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit
of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem
to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense
to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both
personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all,
nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see
them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Worked for me! Thanks Sara!! He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom
line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to
try. All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person
should be able to decide if they want it. It’s obviously not a recreational
drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

> Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

> —– Original Message —–
> From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
>
> In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
> writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
> Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
> otherwise.
> Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
> is
> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
> to
> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
> to
> attach to.
>
> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination
>
> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
> not
> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
> unthinkable
> even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
> idea
> in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )
>
> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
> book
> about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
> USE
> IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
> mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)
>
> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
>
> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
> attribute
> healing to.
>
> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as
>
> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
> seek
> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
>
> or wife we hate.
> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as
>
> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
> countries
> for most (the rich excepted).
> I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
> getting
> rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.
>
> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
> and
> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
> defeatist
> voodoo ideology.
>
> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
> ciao
> pc
>
> PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
> Orleans
> gig.
>
>
> Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
> getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
> Randy
>
>
> —
>
> ————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To V through Preston
Date: February 13, 2005 at 9:09:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t make it to the Methadone Clinic as much as
I used to.

🙂

<starting Care Bears Record>…”Welcome to the
World of Care Bears, I’m the Cloudkeeper, and in the
Home of of Care Bears, Another Day of Caring Is
Beginning…”

[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: Pipetman9@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson
Date: February 13, 2005 at 9:04:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In einer eMail vom 11.02.2005 06:38:35 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt jamilah@erols.com:

Thank you for just clearing a mystery that goes back to my teens in 1969, we did a drug that was billed as a “a drug that treats Parkinson’s disease”. This powdered substance had our perceptions so whacked out, it was extremely memorable, different from any other LSD or mescaline. It was like the funnest drug I’ve ever done. Never knew what it was. I bet it was Trihexylphenidyl  now that I’ve looked it up. Are you experienced?
ciao,
Jamilah

here are some good parkinson links for those interested,
http://www.mindiskey.com/ParkinsonsRefs.html

toxic oxidation products of dopamin itself may cause this disease,  this reaction is catalysed by accumulation of iron in the brain, you need dopamin to feel good but too much of it in combination with iron and polyunsaturated fatty acids that form free radicals in the brain may first kill parts of the brain that have high dopamin concentrations before they make you demented.

If it was trihexy you must have taken a high dose?
I know someone who used  trihexyphenidy in normal dose but not in high dose, in normal dose you may feel some euphoria, he said he felt much better,
incidentally there is an alternative theory about depression as cholinergic hyperactivity of the nervous system, called the Cholinergic
hypothesis of depression, so anticholinergics can in fact be antidepressant drugs.

high dose of all anticholinergics is of course a very strong hallucinogen comparable to Datura or Fly agaric fungus,
Biperidin is another antiparkinson medication that seems to have similar effects as it also is reported to be abused.

regards, Juergen

I enclose some literature references:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Psychiatr Prax. 1988 Mar;15(2):53-6.
[Biperiden abuse as a partial factor in polytoxicomania]
[Article in German]

Schulte RM.

Psychiatrische Klinik II, Universitat Ulm, Bezirkskrankenhaus Gunzburg.

We found 16 patients (15%) taking the anticholinergic biperiden because of its psychotropic action, occasionally, rather frequently or regularly, among a subgroup of 120 drug-dependent patients (drugs of the barbiturate and amphetamin types) out of a studied total of 194 imprisoned male addicts. These biperiden abusers suffered without exception from polytoxicomania associated with drug dependence and alcoholism. Most prominent was drug dependence on drugs of the morphine type. We could not prove a case of an isolated “primary” abuse of biperiden. Direct medical prescription was a rather secondary factor in procuring this preparation, in contrast to analgesics, tranquilisers, barbiturates and clomethiazol. Increase of biperiden abuse is due, on the one hand, to a generally noticeable tendency to polytoxicomania, and on the other hand to a change in Federal German drug prescription rules effective 1 August 1986 according to which fenetylline hydrochloride, a sympathomimetic, is now subject to medical prescription. Other centrally acting anticholinergics were unknown among this group of patients and were not abused. The results are discussed on the basis of available literature

Actas Luso Esp Neurol Psiquiatr Cienc Afines. 1991 Nov-Dec;19(6):298-303.
[Dependence on anticholinergics among schizophrenics. Iatrogenic disease or self-medication?]

[Article in Spanish]

Chamorro Garcia L.

Servicio de Psiquiatria, Hospital General, Insalud de Guadalajara.

This report concerns two schizophrenic patients who had ingested a biperiden overdose between 8 and 14 mg per day. This drug had been prescribed to treat extrapyramidal side effects of neuroleptics. Once the ingestion was suppressed, both patients complained about anxiety, discomfort and depression. These symptoms disappeared when reintroducing the biperiden. Both patients had a previous record of alcohol and cannabis abuse. One of them had also a recorder of sporadic consumption of other drugs such as heroin, amphetamines and hallucinogens. The predominant psychopathology was of the negative type. Through these cases we intend to support the likelihood of a cholinergic hyperactivity in the negative schizophrenic symptoms.

Leg Med (Tokyo). 2004 Oct;6(4):233-41.

Development of a screening method for the most commonly abused anticholinergic drugs in Jordan; trihexyphenidyl, procyclidine and biperiden.

Hadidi KA.

Forensic Medicine and Toxicology Division, Faculty of Medicine, University of Jordan, Amman 11942, Jordan. khadidi@ju.edu.jo

A sensitive and rapid method for the simultaneous determination of three commonly abused anticholinergic drugs in Jordan; trihexyphenidyl, procyclidine, and biperiden in plasma and urine has been developed using solid phase extraction and GC-MS. Linearity was established from therapeutic to fatal concentrations of the three drugs; 5-300 ng/ml in plasma, with correlation coefficient r(2) > or = 0.9978 and 10-800 ng/ml in urine r(2) > or = 0.9993. Recoveries were in the range of 86-92% and intra-day and inter-day relative standard deviations (n = 6) were in the range of 6.6-10.3% for the three drugs at three different concentrations in plasma and urine. The base peak m/z 98 for trihexyphenidyl, m/z 84 for procyclidine, and m/z 98 and 218 for biperiden, and m/z 339 for papaverine (internal standard) were monitored at selective ion monitoring; their retention times were 8.10, 8.67 and 8.92 min, respectively, and 14.79 min for the internal standard with analysis time of 16.75 min. The limit of detection of 0.5 ng/ml was attained for trihexyphenidyl and procyclidine, while for biperiden 2.0 and 1.0 ng/ml in spiked plasma and urine, respectively. This method has been applied to forensic and authentic samples taken from abuser and patients using these drugs. The method will offer the clinicians and the legal authority the right diagnosis regarding the anticholinergic involved in any case of abuse with less than 1 h per sample (plasma or urine) from the time of receiving.

Therapie. 2003 Nov-Dec;58(6):541-7.
[Misuse of trihexyphenidyl (Artane, Parkinane): recent trends]

[Article in French]

Frauger E, Thirion X, Chanut C, Natali F, Debruyne D, Saillard C, Pradel V, Reggio P, Micallef J.

CEIP de Marseille (PACA-Corse, Centre Associe), Laboratoire de Sante Publique, Faculte de Medecine, Marseille, France.

Recent observations suggest the existence of trihexyphenidyl abuse linked to its hallucinogenic and euphoric effects. In order to determine the importance of this practice and the characteristics of those involved, a study based on data from the Provence-Alpes-Cote-d’Azur and the Corsica health reimbursement system was carried out. Individuals from these regions affiliated to the French health reimbursement system who had a prescription for trihexyphenidyl (Artane, Parkinane) reimbursed between January 1, 2001, and February 15, 2001, were selected. The delivery of prescriptions was monitored over a 9-month period. In total, 3028 subjects were selected. A subgroup comprising 2.1% of subjects with deviant behaviour was identified by factorial analysis and compared with the subgroup without deviant behaviour. The subjects with deviant behaviour were young and mostly male. The dosage of trihexyphenidyl was higher in these subjects (28 mg/day versus 7 mg/day) and a greater proportion used benzodiazepine and high-dose buprenorphine compared with those without deviant behaviour. The number of prescriptions delivered was higher (23.0 versus 7.7) as well the number of different physicians (4.9 versus 1.5) and pharmacies (5.0 versus 1.3) for those subjects with deviant behaviour. This study confirms the abuse and dependence potential associated with trihexyphenidyl use and the need to increase the supervision of this drug

Med Clin (Barc). 1991 Jul 6;97(6):239.

[Hallucinosis due to trihexyphenidyl abuse]

[Article in Spanish]

Palao DJ, Arauxo A, Bernardo M.

Psychiatr Serv. 2000 Jul;51(7):928-9.
Misuse of anticholinergic drugs by people with serious mental illness.

Buhrich N, Weller A, Kevans P.

Department of Psychological Medicine, University of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. buhrich@mail.usyd.edu.au

This study assessed misuse of anticholinergic drugs in a population of 50 patients with serious mental illness who were assertively managed by a community-based outreach team in Sydney, Australia. One-third of the subjects reported having misused anticholinergics over the previous month. All anticholinergics were misused, and trihexyphenidyl (benzhexol) was misused most frequently. Most subjects misused at least one other drug as well. On direct questioning, the reason given most frequently was “to get high”; on indirect questioning, reasons were related more to peer participation and feelings of futility. Marginalized patients living in the community are vulnerable to the misuse of anticholinergic drugs

Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1987 Jan;75(1):91-4.
Trihexyphenidyl abuse: therapeutic implications for negative symptoms of schizophrenia?

Fisch RZ.

Trihexyphenidyl (THP) and other antiparkinsonian drugs are known to be substances of abuse. This is true both in abusers of other substances and in chronic schizophrenics, the latter being infrequent abusers of other drugs. Most reports on the abuse of antiparkinsonian drugs among schizophrenic patients warn against the possible harm of this self-medication. The present article describes the different effects of THP on both schizophrenic and non-schizophrenic abusers. The subjective experience in most chronic schizophrenic patients who abuse THP is positive: they claim that THP makes them feel and function better. In the light of these findings, the author suggests that research on the possible benefits of THP in contrast to the potential harm in chronic, residual schizophrenic patients is warranted.

Br J Psychiatry. 1984 Sep;145:300-3.
A study of benzhexol abuse.

Crawshaw JA, Mullen PE.

The occasional abuse of anticholinergic drugs for their psychotropic and specifically hallucinogenic properties has been known for over a century, but benzhexol (trihexyphenidyl) abuse has only recently attracted attention in the literature, mainly in case reports. This paper reports on a study of 21 benzhexol abusers. They were a young, single, and disadvantaged group of polydrug abusers with poor employment, educational, and social skills, who abused benzhexol mainly for its euphorogenic properties. The two major diagnostic categories were antisocial personality disorder and schizophrenia. An unexpected finding was cognitive impairment persisting after acute intoxication.

Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1984 Jun;69(6):538-42.
Trihexyphenidyl dependence.

McInnis M, Petursson H.

Trihexyphenidyl, a synthetic anticholinergic, is frequently used concurrently with neuroleptics to control extrapyramidal side effects. We present two case reports of trihexyphenidyl abuse which concur with the increasing concern expressed regarding the abuse potential of trihexyphenidyl. In one of the cases a double-blind, placebo-controlled withdrawal was conducted and monitored on a number of physiological parameters and the Hamilton Anxiety Rating Scale. A recognizable withdrawal syndrome followed discontinuation of the drug. In addition to the abuse potential it is suggested that dependence liability be considered in maintenance therapy with trihexyphenidyl and other antiparkinsonians.

J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1983 Aug;3(4):263-4.
High dose trihexyphenidyl abuse with psychological dependence.

Sofair J, Campion J, Angrist B.

Br J Psychiatry. 1982 May;140:473-4.
Trihexyphenidyl (Artane) abuse: euphoriant and anxiolytic.

Kaminer Y, Munitz H, Wijsenbeek H.

Ann Emerg Med. 1981 Feb;10(2):98-100.
Abuse of antiparkinsonian drugs.

Craig DH, Rosen P.

Abuse of the antiparkinsonian agents for their hallucinogenic and euphoriant effects is likely more prevalent than reported. Two clinical cases are presented, with discussion of symptoms and response to a diagnostic trial of physostigmine.

J Clin Psychiatry. 1980 Oct;41(10):351-4.
Abuse of the antiparkinson drugs: a review of the literature.

Smith JM.

A review of the literature indicates that the anticholinergic antiparkinson drugs can be abused by some patients to achieve pleasurable effects ranging from a mild euphoria with increased sociability at the lower doses to a toxic anticholinergic psychosis with disorientation and hallucinations at higher doses. Trihexyphenidyl may have a greater potential for abuse but there has been no systematic data on this issue. While the abuse of these drugs may not be widespread, it is yet another factor arguing for their judicious use.

JAMA. 1978 Jun 2;239(22):2365-6.
Abuse of antiparkinsonism drugs. Feigning of extrapyramidal symptoms to obtain trihexyphenidyl.

Rubinstein JS.

Many physicians may be unaware of the abuse potential of antiparkinsonism medications. A case report suggests that the deliberate abuse of these drugs may be considerably more widespread than has been hitherto believed. Patients may feign extrapyramidal symptoms to obtain antiparkinsonism agents. Physicians should exercise greater caution when prescribing these drugs.

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 13, 2005 at 7:37:13 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

> Preston,
>       I’d be a little suprised if the owner who’s license she was serving
> under did not get a ticket as well.   I used to bartend in nyc in the mid
> 80’s although a little different situation as it was after hours.  So I got
> plenty of tickets and even got taken in to central booking a few times to go
> to court which always took anywhere from 2-6 days. Wouldn’t have been a big
> deal if it wasn’t for the withdrawls.   The owner always paid for the lawyer
> and the fines.    I know this is a different scenario, however as upscale as
> this club sounds the owner you can bet has a lawyer on retainer and the
> unspoken understanding was that security would check id’s.  I know
> technically the bartender is responsible. A good lawyer could get the whole
> thing either thrown out or dismiss the charges or waive the fine.  The
> record stands.  If it is a first offense ever usually if there are no
> problems for six months they will seal the record.  This may or may not
> still be the case.  I haven’t had any recent legal problems so I don’t know
> for sure.
>      Personally If I was V, I would go to the owner and have a conversation
> that brings up their lawyer(s) and the business handling this from the
> financial aspect. In a nice naive kind of way. Sounds like they weren’t
> forthcoming with their payola as it’s not an election year which is when we
> used to get hit hard. This stinks of something other than randomly checking
> clubs.
>                                                 You have my sympathy,
>                                                                   Martee
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:29 AM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
>
>
> > Hi all and top of the morning to you.
> >    As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a dj, a
> > cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug deale…I mean,
> > bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
> >    She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan, known for
> > it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused crowd. She had
> > to work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting up her bar, just
> > after 10, she saw very few customers, but did serve a few the first
> > halfhour behind the bar.
> >    Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has her ID
> > with her.
> >    “Yes, why?”
> >    “Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.
> >    She grabbed it and headed to the office, where she discovered two
> > undercover NYPD officers waiting for her.
> >    Apparently, she served an underaged, more importantly, FAKE customer.
> > She doesn’t know who it was, thinking perhaps it was one young lady but
> > really doesn’t have a clue, not having been paying attention.
> >    Now, the thing is, V works in a very upscale nightclub with top-notch
> > security, one of those places where the security force (yes, a force for
> > all intents and purposes) wears tuxes and those nifty inside the ear
> > radios. They check IDs at the door, so she isn’t supposed to have to worry
> > about that sort of thing. Plus, she nor I have health insurance, making
> > just too much money to qualify for most public assistance were we so
> > inclinded and not enough to really cover much more than we already are.
> > Yet, our taxes are going to things like, say, paying the NYPD to hire
> > underage (or are they kids who got in trouble and now work as snitches? Do
> > the police do that sort of thing in real life still?) kids to go into bars
> > and nightclubs, pose as customers and attempt to buy alcohol, so the cops
> > can then bust the bartender (and the bar) for the sale and then make some
> > money in court.
> >    Which is what’s going to happen as near as we can tell at this early
> > date. One of the cops took her ID, wrote her a ticket, then handed her the
> > ticket while uttering the most sincere “I’m sorry” ever uttered I’m sure
> > (that jerk). To make it even worse, it’s not a fine that she can just pay,
> > it’s a ticket for a court appearance in March. So the city is going to
> > spend even more of our tax money on a hearing over her ticket, then will
> > fine her some few hundreds of bucks (we hope that’s the extent of this,
> > that she won’t have to do anything else on top of that).
> >    To say I’m livid about this is an understatement. What in the world is
> > this sort of thing solving or helping or doing to better our society? What
> > in the world are people thinking to stoop to such petty stupidity as this?
> >    To top it off, half an hour later V is asleep, worn out from a night of
> > stressing out checking every single customers’ ID, as the management then
> > told the entire staff that every single customer from that point on had to
> > be checked before being served, something they don’t normally have to do
> > due to having a door staff that is supposed to be doing it for them before
> > the customers even get in the door due to it being a “21 and over”
> > nightbluc anyway. I’m sitting in my quiet room, writing in my journal and
> > listening to my walkman, doing my morning waking up ritual. I reach out
> > and pick up my fully loaded (I’m not out, making this all even more
> > depression, in case any officers are reading this- I’M OUT NOW, and never
> > have more than 28 grams when I do have any pot anyway, meaning I’m not
> > breaking NY laws due to this, NY, being a decrim state), brand new
> > beautiful hand-blown glass bowl that I just finally broke down and bought
> > yesterday, having broken my last one a few weeks ago. I’ve been suffering
> > through not having a bowl since then, having to roll joints, or use a
> > nasty old bong, (hard to take a bong with me to a dj gig), or use this
> > neato pipe that is hidden inside a magic marker that V’s sister gave her
> > for Chistmas- actually a fairly decent bowl but it’s not glass, a much
> > nicer material to smoke from. Anyway, I reach out and lovingly pick up my
> > brand new, only used twice so far bowl, lift it towards my lips, and then
> > completely spaz out, loose all control of my fingers and basically throw
> > the bowl directly to the hard tile floor of my bathroom, shattering the
> > brand new, now useless and wasted bowl.
> >    So, I’d like to ask everyone to please think so positive thoughts in
> > our direction as the vibes around us seem to be jangling pretty hard and
> > I’d like them to please calm down a bit.
> > ;-))
> > Thanks for your time and consideration and hopefully for all the good
> > positive vibes everyone is going to sending streaming through the ether.
> >
> >
> >
> > Peace and love,
> > Preston
> >
> > “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> > mistaken for madness”
> > Richard Davenport-Hines
> >
> > ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
> > Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> > Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
> > Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
> > Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
> > Cont. High Times mag/.com
> > Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> > Columnist New York Waste
> > Etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=———————————————————————=[\
> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> > [%]
> >
> > \]=———————————————————————=[/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>   /]=———————————————————————=[\
>  [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>   \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 13, 2005 at 7:32:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

> Preston,
>       I’d be a little suprised if the owner who’s license she was serving
> under did not get a ticket as well.   I used to bartend in nyc in the mid
> 80’s although a little different situation as it was after hours.  So I got
> plenty of tickets and even got taken in to central booking a few times to go
> to court which always took anywhere from 2-6 days. Wouldn’t have been a big
> deal if it wasn’t for the withdrawls.   The owner always paid for the lawyer
> and the fines.    I know this is a different scenario, however as upscale as
> this club sounds the owner you can bet has a lawyer on retainer and the
> unspoken understanding was that security would check id’s.  I know
> technically the bartender is responsible. A good lawyer could get the whole
> thing either thrown out or dismiss the charges or waive the fine.  The
> record stands.  If it is a first offense ever usually if there are no
> problems for six months they will seal the record.  This may or may not
> still be the case.  I haven’t had any recent legal problems so I don’t know
> for sure.
>      Personally If I was V, I would go to the owner and have a conversation
> that brings up their lawyer(s) and the business handling this from the
> financial aspect. In a nice naive kind of way. Sounds like they weren’t
> forthcoming with their payola as it’s not an election year which is when we
> used to get hit hard. This stinks of something other than randomly checking
> clubs.
>                                                 You have my sympathy,
>                                                                   Martee
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:29 AM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
>
>
> > Hi all and top of the morning to you.
> >    As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a dj, a
> > cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug deale…I mean,
> > bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
> >    She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan, known for
> > it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused crowd. She had
> > to work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting up her bar, just
> > after 10, she saw very few customers, but did serve a few the first
> > halfhour behind the bar.
> >    Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has her ID
> > with her.
> >    “Yes, why?”
> >    “Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.
> >    She grabbed it and headed to the office, where she discovered two
> > undercover NYPD officers waiting for her.
> >    Apparently, she served an underaged, more importantly, FAKE customer.
> > She doesn’t know who it was, thinking perhaps it was one young lady but
> > really doesn’t have a clue, not having been paying attention.
> >    Now, the thing is, V works in a very upscale nightclub with top-notch
> > security, one of those places where the security force (yes, a force for
> > all intents and purposes) wears tuxes and those nifty inside the ear
> > radios. They check IDs at the door, so she isn’t supposed to have to worry
> > about that sort of thing. Plus, she nor I have health insurance, making
> > just too much money to qualify for most public assistance were we so
> > inclinded and not enough to really cover much more than we already are.
> > Yet, our taxes are going to things like, say, paying the NYPD to hire
> > underage (or are they kids who got in trouble and now work as snitches? Do
> > the police do that sort of thing in real life still?) kids to go into bars
> > and nightclubs, pose as customers and attempt to buy alcohol, so the cops
> > can then bust the bartender (and the bar) for the sale and then make some
> > money in court.
> >    Which is what’s going to happen as near as we can tell at this early
> > date. One of the cops took her ID, wrote her a ticket, then handed her the
> > ticket while uttering the most sincere “I’m sorry” ever uttered I’m sure
> > (that jerk). To make it even worse, it’s not a fine that she can just pay,
> > it’s a ticket for a court appearance in March. So the city is going to
> > spend even more of our tax money on a hearing over her ticket, then will
> > fine her some few hundreds of bucks (we hope that’s the extent of this,
> > that she won’t have to do anything else on top of that).
> >    To say I’m livid about this is an understatement. What in the world is
> > this sort of thing solving or helping or doing to better our society? What
> > in the world are people thinking to stoop to such petty stupidity as this?
> >    To top it off, half an hour later V is asleep, worn out from a night of
> > stressing out checking every single customers’ ID, as the management then
> > told the entire staff that every single customer from that point on had to
> > be checked before being served, something they don’t normally have to do
> > due to having a door staff that is supposed to be doing it for them before
> > the customers even get in the door due to it being a “21 and over”
> > nightbluc anyway. I’m sitting in my quiet room, writing in my journal and
> > listening to my walkman, doing my morning waking up ritual. I reach out
> > and pick up my fully loaded (I’m not out, making this all even more
> > depression, in case any officers are reading this- I’M OUT NOW, and never
> > have more than 28 grams when I do have any pot anyway, meaning I’m not
> > breaking NY laws due to this, NY, being a decrim state), brand new
> > beautiful hand-blown glass bowl that I just finally broke down and bought
> > yesterday, having broken my last one a few weeks ago. I’ve been suffering
> > through not having a bowl since then, having to roll joints, or use a
> > nasty old bong, (hard to take a bong with me to a dj gig), or use this
> > neato pipe that is hidden inside a magic marker that V’s sister gave her
> > for Chistmas- actually a fairly decent bowl but it’s not glass, a much
> > nicer material to smoke from. Anyway, I reach out and lovingly pick up my
> > brand new, only used twice so far bowl, lift it towards my lips, and then
> > completely spaz out, loose all control of my fingers and basically throw
> > the bowl directly to the hard tile floor of my bathroom, shattering the
> > brand new, now useless and wasted bowl.
> >    So, I’d like to ask everyone to please think so positive thoughts in
> > our direction as the vibes around us seem to be jangling pretty hard and
> > I’d like them to please calm down a bit.
> > ;-))
> > Thanks for your time and consideration and hopefully for all the good
> > positive vibes everyone is going to sending streaming through the ether.
> >
> >
> >
> > Peace and love,
> > Preston
> >
> > “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> > mistaken for madness”
> > Richard Davenport-Hines
> >
> > ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
> > Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> > Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
> > Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
> > Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
> > Cont. High Times mag/.com
> > Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> > Columnist New York Waste
> > Etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=———————————————————————=[\
> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> > [%]
> >
> > \]=———————————————————————=[/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>   /]=———————————————————————=[\
>  [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>   \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To V through Preston
Date: February 13, 2005 at 6:59:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston,
My tuppence worth.
First I would ask her boss to pick up the bill. If he is not interested or negotiable I would take that as a warning sign not to f*&k with him too much as he is a selfish bastard. Its always hard to find a good job. What’s the saying? To cut off your nose to spite your face?
If the money is a big issue then I would go with an earlier suggestion and get someone to convas on V’s behalf to pick up a collection. I would then take the residual anger and use it to beat a pillow and ….. Better to lose a battle and win the war!
Lee

CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Preston, I have not wrote in a long time and I am sorry that I am motivated to write to you about V’s predicament. So is life! I really think she should hire a lawyer and argue the position that the customers are supposed to be carded at door. I would anyway. Her boss might not like it cause it puts the liability back at him and his security.
Do you have to be sanctioned to sell liquor as a bartender in New Tork? Like a liquor license? If so, is hers in jeopardy?
You know too, I am interested in who the undercover customer was and how they came into being in that position! Maybe a cops teen or something? lol! All jokes aside, it is an interesting question.
Hope you are well.
I changed to digest and honestly don’t read as much of list as I used too. I have missed it though. But there is so much for me to do other than sitting on my plump bum typing away on the keyboard and staring at the screen with mouse in hand!
I will look for your response. Give V a hug from Callie and tell her she will benefit in the end. We benefit from every obstacle thrown in our path. Maybe she needs to slow down a bit and be more aware.
This too shall pass……..and more shit will be around the corner!
Peace, Callie

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 12, 2005 at 11:03:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Seems to me that Cohen and everyone stating things that seem hostile in any way towards what Cohen is saying are arguing two different points entirely. I don’t think Cohen is arguing that ibogaine isn’t effective at what it’s purported to do, but what I think he’s trying to get at is that too many are looking at opiate (and pretty much all currently illicit drug use) use as inherently wrong in the first place and that in an ideal world the current situation we have whereby so many people can benefit from trying ibogaine wouldn’t exist, and therefore the need for ibogaine to be available wouldn’t be as needed, and for that matter, ibogaine itself wouldn’t be illegal either.
I could be putting words in his mouth, but personally I’m having a bit of trouble figuring out what the argument actually is, as both “sides” seem to be debating different topics, almost, and both “sides” are making sense to me- if only they were discussing the same thing.
I can’t say I’ve seen anything in Peter Cohen’s recent posts, both personal and through Patrick, that I personally disagree with much at all, nor do I see much I disagree with from the other stance. I just don’t see them as the same topic. Oh, I think I just said that.
I’ll leave it at this then. I could just be missing it of course.
Carry on all.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Worked for me!  Thanks Sara!!  He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to try.  All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person should be able to decide if they want it.  It’s obviously not a recreational drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get anothe! r spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In! a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now i! n e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable sym! ptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox 94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]OT Peter Cohen’s reply.
Date: February 12, 2005 at 10:51:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter Cohen second letter is effectively more coherent than the first one
but I still believe that is position is stiff and incoherent.

The The Declaration of Geneva was adopted by the General Assembly of the
World MedicalAssociation at was adopted by the General Assembly of the World
MedicalAssociation at Genevra  in 1948 and amended bythe 22d World Medical
Assembly at Sydney in 1968 It is a declaration of physicians’ dedication to
the humanitarian goals of medicine, a declaration that was especially
importantin view of the medical crimes which had just been committed in Nazi
germany.
The Declaration of Geneva reads “AT THE TIME OF BEING ADMITTED AS A MEMBER
OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

a.. I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE myself to consecrate my life to the service of
humanity;
b.. I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their
due;
c.. I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
d.. THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
e.. I WILL RESPECT the secrets which are confided in me, even after the
patient has died;
f.. I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble
traditions of the medical profession;
g.. MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
h.. I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed,
ethnic origin, gender, nationality, politicalaffiliation, race, sexual
orientation, or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;
i.. I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life from its beginning
even under threat and I will not use my medicalknowledge contrary to the
laws of humanity;
j.. I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honor.”
Now if a dying addict is not sick, of course, you don’t have to help him .
Did I understood it , ?/!
You don’t have to help an alcoholic. What about a diabetic ? An obese ?
What if your country had 27 % of the men are addicted to opium, like after
the two Opium war in China ?
What if a superpower with the help of alcohol is destroying your people and
culture like in the “American Genocide” Europe versus Americas.? What if
goverments try to push addiction to theirs citizens?
To many questions for a busy specialist in addiction trying to reach is
quote of 10 % success rate.
God bless you
Francis
Sorry, nothing personal. Just few questions. Have you ever read ” brave new
world ” ?

—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:06 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen’s reply.

NOTE: I did not write this.

I am posting Peter Cohen’s letter at his request.

He is on the list, and should be able to read and reply.

Patrick

From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>

Dana, thanks for responding in writing. Mostly I have not a clue what
you are saying, or accusing me of, but never mind.

Let me begin to apologise for some of my wording, and the mistake I
made to not connect to the real need of people to change their ways
under the present social and legal circumstances around intense drug
use .
In that sense my reasoning is too stiff and irrealistic, and it
unnesearly blocks understanding of what I would most like to come
through of my words.

Now, some of my assumptions:

I have never accpeted the old theory about addiction as disease, nor
much else about the concept of addiction. I consider the concept of
addiction as an outgrowth ( in the 18th century) of the then already
used concepts of ‘possession, and being’bewitched’. Concepts that refer
to the snatching of the soul, or the will, by an evil alien force.
These concepts reflect our incapacity to understand particular
behaviour as very ‘human’ and therefor they are ‘extra human’, alien.
Drugs are an alien force ( like the devil , or a witch), and in the
alcohol litterature from the mid 18th century the model for alcohol as
a soul snatcher is created.Later this model was generalised to other
drugs. All these soul snatchers ( witches,drugs alcohol included), have
been prohibited in the USA at some time or another since the mid 17th
century.

Modern neurological theory that says addiction is brain disease is a
small permutation of the original dogma, that alien forces can
deregulate (sicken) our inner self, our core self. Neurology tries to
understand now where this happens, and it says: in the brain. And
neurologists make theory about this and create images ( brain scans
they call them) to illustrate their ideas. In a nutshell they say that
drugs will incapacitate the brain’s centers of ‘good’ decision making
and then they locate the cells where this happens.( They, of course,
define what ‘good’ decision making is, not I, the head of which they
made the scan)

If addiction is a way of learned adaptation, we should no longer use
the word addiction, but ‘ a life style in which the intense and
sometimes frequent use of drugs is an adaptive tool”.

Sometimes tools become obsolete, and the explanation of why so many
people leave dysfunctional adaptations is exactly that: loss of
usefulness.

But some tools may also carry heavy stigma .Religeons were forbidden,
sexual behaviours chosen by some were forbidden, types( patterns) of
drug use are forbidden because they all conflict with general ideals
about human existence. This is a sort of legitimization of prohibiting
these behaviours.

I agree fully with Dana that methadone is not only a chemical
compound, but much more an instrument of discipline in a world that
prohibits the self chosen use of opiates in spite of the fact that some
people like them, and some even need them to survive. If I choose to
use opiates it is not okay, but if my doctor makes that choice for me,
it is. We prohibit not so much the opiate, but the intention and
symbolical context of some types of use. The doctor can give me
methadone to help me live with my type of adapatation, but not the type
of opiate I like better.

Methadone can help people, but only ( or mostly) at the conditions of
the doctor.

And here we reach the core of what I would like to clarify: the doctor
stands for society’s choice to prohibit me the self chosen use of
opiates. He wants me to be either abstinent, or use his opaites in ways
he prescribes.If I fail, hopla. to jail ,or at least no more
assistence.

Overcoming use and reaching abstinence is society’s goal with me if I
use opiates. Overcoming ‘addiction’ by means of ‘treatment’ is what is
supposed to happen. The ibo people say: use ibo to overcome
addiction.The whitecoats say: use my compounds or life rules to
overcome.

My mistake is that I approach these things in a too theoretical
fashion. I reason: the desire to become abstinent is a solid by product
of our social ways of prohibiting opiates and other drugs, and the idea
of an ideal human being that lurks behind these prohibitions.

But, as some of the ibo people told me, it may not be a by product of
social force alone; it may be a genuine desire ,never mind the way this
desire developed in me.

Okay. That is true.

If I approach the ibo people with this Okay, could they approach me
with more understanding of my problems with the self chosen use of ibo?
Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has
created its usefulness: prohibition. I see ibo as ‘just one of these
treatments’ in a very symbolical sense.I am not talking about the
pleasure of taking ibo, or its high level of interestingness, I am not
refering to its subjective functionality, but to its social symbolism.

I maintain that the illustration I used about homosexuality could
clarify this. People of course have the right to not want to be gay.
But if society jails gays, marginalises them, blackmails them and
ultimately destroys their identity, it is not fair to ask people to
remain gay, and true to their ‘inner self’.Of course I understand their
desire to ungay themselves, and if they use ibo to do that ,be my
guest.But the social function of the ibo in that context is : society’s
soldier that chases the gayness out of gays. And I do not accept that
because of my weird idea that gays have the right to be gays, and
similar, intense drug users have the right to pursue that life style.

I have used the word ibo CLAN because of the special circle in which
ibo is developing its mythical status.For me it is just another
‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and within a theoretical NIDA
govererend dominance of pharmacological understanding of intense drug
use, not a psychological understanding or a societal one. Its like (
not the same!) as these compounds the industry now works on to block
ALL ‘addictive’ behavior or ‘craving’, to be injected from birth
on.What a money maker ,this ulimate pharmacological zombyiser.

To Sara, giving me ibo, and making me part of the interesting
experience, would not change my ideas.My subjective reaction to ibo and
my discussion of the social function of ibo are different levels of
observation or analysis.

pc

PS Dana shouted at me at the top of his voice in the New Orleans
hotel. I did not really mind. Angry people do that.

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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 9:52:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston,
I’d be a little suprised if the owner who’s license she was serving under did not get a ticket as well.   I used to bartend in nyc in the mid 80’s although a little different situation as it was after hours.  So I got plenty of tickets and even got taken in to central booking a few times to go to court which always took anywhere from 2-6 days. Wouldn’t have been a big deal if it wasn’t for the withdrawls.   The owner always paid for the lawyer and the fines.    I know this is a different scenario, however as upscale as this club sounds the owner you can bet has a lawyer on retainer and the unspoken understanding was that security would check id’s.  I know technically the bartender is responsible. A good lawyer could get the whole thing either thrown out or dismiss the charges or waive the fine.  The record stands.  If it is a first offense ever usually if there are no problems for six months they will seal the record.  This may or may not still be the case.  I haven’t had any recent legal problems so I don’t know for sure.
Personally If I was V, I would go to the owner and have a conversation that brings up their lawyer(s) and the business handling this from the financial aspect. In a nice naive kind of way. Sounds like they weren’t forthcoming with their payola as it’s not an election year which is when we used to get hit hard. This stinks of something other than randomly checking clubs.
You have my sympathy,
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:29 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

Hi all and top of the morning to you.
As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a dj, a cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug deale…I mean, bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan, known for it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused crowd. She had to work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting up her bar, just after 10, she saw very few customers, but did serve a few the first halfhour behind the bar.
Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has her ID with her.
“Yes, why?”
“Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.
She grabbed it and headed to the office, where she discovered two undercover NYPD officers waiting for her.
Apparently, she served an underaged, more importantly, FAKE customer. She doesn’t know who it was, thinking perhaps it was one young lady but really doesn’t have a clue, not having been paying attention.
Now, the thing is, V works in a very upscale nightclub with top-notch security, one of those places where the security force (yes, a force for all intents and purposes) wears tuxes and those nifty inside the ear radios. They check IDs at the door, so she isn’t supposed to have to worry about that sort of thing. Plus, she nor I have health insurance, making just too much money to qualify for most public assistance were we so inclinded and not enough to really cover much more than we already are. Yet, our taxes are going to things like, say, paying the NYPD to hire underage (or are they kids who got in trouble and now work as snitches? Do the police do that sort of thing in real life still?) kids to go into bars and nightclubs, pose as customers and attempt to buy alcohol, so the cops can then bust the bartender (and the bar) for the sale and then make some money in court.
Which is what’s going to happen as near as we can tell at this early date. One of the cops took her ID, wrote her a ticket, then handed her the ticket while uttering the most sincere “I’m sorry” ever uttered I’m sure (that jerk). To make it even worse, it’s not a fine that she can just pay, it’s a ticket for a court appearance in March. So the city is going to spend even more of our tax money on a hearing over her ticket, then will fine her some few hundreds of bucks (we hope that’s the extent of this, that she won’t have to do anything else on top of that).
To say I’m livid about this is an understatement. What in the world is this sort of thing solving or helping or doing to better our society? What in the world are people thinking to stoop to such petty stupidity as this?
To top it off, half an hour later V is asleep, worn out from a night of stressing out checking every single customers’ ID, as the management then told the entire staff that every single customer from that point on had to be checked before being served, something they don’t normally have to do due to having a door staff that is supposed to be doing it for them before the customers even get in the door due to it being a “21 and over” nightbluc anyway. I’m sitting in my quiet room, writing in my journal and listening to my walkman, doing my morning waking up ritual. I reach out and pick up my fully loaded (I’m not out, making this all even more depression, in case any officers are reading this- I’M OUT NOW, and never have more than 28 grams when I do have any pot anyway, meaning I’m not breaking NY laws due to this, NY, being a decrim state), brand new beautiful hand-blown glass bowl that I just finally broke down and bought yesterday, having broken my last one a few weeks ago. I’ve been suffering through not having a bowl since then, having to roll joints, or use a nasty old bong, (hard to take a bong with me to a dj gig), or use this neato pipe that is hidden inside a magic marker that V’s sister gave her for Chistmas- actually a fairly decent bowl but it’s not glass, a much nicer material to smoke from. Anyway, I reach out and lovingly pick up my brand new, only used twice so far bowl, lift it towards my lips, and then completely spaz out, loose all control of my fingers and basically throw the bowl directly to the hard tile floor of my bathroom, shattering the brand new, now useless and wasted bowl.
So, I’d like to ask everyone to please think so positive thoughts in our direction as the vibes around us seem to be jangling pretty hard and I’d like them to please calm down a bit.
;-))
Thanks for your time and consideration and hopefully for all the good positive vibes everyone is going to sending streaming through the ether.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 12, 2005 at 9:46:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Worked for me!  Thanks Sara!!  He can spew all the crap he wants but bottom line it works for people and should be available for anyone that wants to try.  All assessed risks or possible risks should be given and the person should be able to decide if they want it.  It’s obviously not a recreational drug…
Shawn

Sara Glatt <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden wrote:

> Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

> —– Original Message —–
> From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
>
> In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
> writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
> Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
> otherwise.
> Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
> is
> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
> to
> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
> to
> attach to.
>
> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination
>
> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
> not
> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
> unthinkable
> even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
> idea
> in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )
>
> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
> book
> about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
> USE
> IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
> mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)
>
> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
>
> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
> attribute
> healing to.
>
> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as
>
> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
> seek
> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
>
> or wife we hate.
> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as
>
> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
> countries
> for most (the rich excepted).
> I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
> getting
> rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.
>
> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
> and
> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
> defeatist
> voodoo ideology.
>
> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
> ciao
> pc
>
> PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
> Orleans
> gig.
>
>
> Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
> getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
> Randy
>
>
> —
>
> ————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo Forum @ Alex Grey’s Feb 20, 21; FDA Trial Resumes
Date: February 12, 2005 at 9:07:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Kay thanks for posting this.

Except why are you doing that?

You are taking messages and events that originate on this list in the
first place, which Dana then takes and sends all over the world in his
Million Marijuana March bulletin and then posting the entire thing
which started here, right back here.

.:vector:.

— Kay Lee <kaylee1@charter.net> wrote:

From: Dana Beal
To: narda@lifefood.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:57 PM
Subject: Ibo Forum @ Alex Grey’s Feb 20, 21; FDA Trial Resumes
Ibogaine Forum Schedule
February 20-21
(Sunday-Monday)

Alex Grey’s Gallery
Chapel of Sacred Mirrors
540 West 27th Street
Fourth Floor
Registration: $20 per day
212-677-4899

Sunday, February 20, 2005;
Noon to 7 pm
12:00 noon-12:45 pm Registration; Introductory remarks: Rommel
Washington, Benu Project.

12:45 pm-3:15 pm
Ibogaine and the Search for Lost Sacraments. Moderated by Alex Grey,

with Dana Beal, author, The Ibogaine Story, Carl Ruck, PhD, author,
The
Apples of Apollo, Rev. Ron Sala, Unitarian, Rob Gordon, Cures Not
Wars.

Discussion

3:15 pm-3:45 pm Break

3:45 pm-5:45 pm Hands-on Ibogaine Treatment: Tips and Pointers with
Howard Lotsof, Patrick Kroupa, Dimitri Mugianis, Adam Nodelman, Chris

Laurance and Andrea Aplementos

5:45 pm-7:00 pm
Screening of Ibogaine: Rite of Passage
with Ben De Loenen

Monday, February 21, 2005;
10 am to 7 pm

10:00 am-10:30 am
Registration;
Introductory Remarks:
H.S. Lotsof

10:30 am-11:30 am
New Findings: Dopamine, Craving, and the Ibogaine Effect. Carl
Anderson, PhD
11:30 am-1:15 pm
Medical Ibogaine Therapy
Jeffrey Kamlet, MD, with intro by Patrick Kroupa.
1:15 pm-1:45 pm Break

1:45 pm-3:15 pm Scientific Panel: Assessing the New Possibilities of
Ibogaine. Kenneth R. Alper, MD, Emmanuel Onaivi, PhD, John
Freelander.
Discussion

3:15 pm-3:45 pm  Break

3:45-5:15 pm Ibogaine Anti-Viral Effects
Vic Hernandez, PhD, Chris Laurance, Jason Farell, Richie D.
Discussion

5:15 pm-7:00 pm
Final Wrap-up Panel. Kenneth Alper, MD and principal
panelists.

The Monday session will be attended by representatives of various
city
and state agencies.

Jeffrey Kamlet, MD, is chief attending physician at the Healing
Visions
clinic in St. Kitts, and the president of the Florida Society of
Addiction Medicine.

Kenneth Alper, MD, is an Associate Professor of Psychiatry and
Neurology at NYU School of Medicine, and organized the 1999 First
International Conference on Ibogaine and co-edited (w. Stanley Glick)

the Proceedings of that conference (The Alkaloids Vol. 57, Acad.
Press,
2001).

Emmanuel Onaivi, PhD, Assistant Professor at William Paterson
College,
M.Sc. in Pharmacology, Ph.D. in Neuropharmacology. He will present on

NIDA-
funded studies of the effects of ibogaine on gene expression
activated
by alcohol and addictive drugs.

Howard Lotsof Discovered Ibogaine as an effective drug detox
treatment.
Holder of patents for ibogaine’s
use vs.: * Narcotics * Stimulants * Nicotine
* Alcohol * PolyDrug Dependence.

What is Ibogaine?
Ibogaine, derived from the African root Tabernanthe iboga,  has a
novel
mechanism of action that is different from other pharmacotherapeutic
approaches to addiction. Relevant issues to be addressed by this
forum
include  the distinctive social and ethnographic aspects of the
informal ibogaine treatment context, its cost-effectiveness as a
treatment option, and the policy implications of ibogaine’s status as
a
Schedule 1 substance.

Ibogaine is currently without formal approval as a treatment option
in
the U.S. However, a distinctive unofficial treatment network, created

by international self-help movements in response to the demand of the

addicts, has provided ibogaine treatment in non-medical settings such

as an apartment or country house.
Participants in this forum will represent the basic and clinical
neurosciences, the disciplines of ethnography and sociology, and the
FDA, NIDA and the pharmaceutical industry. The promotion of
discussion
and exchange of information and views among the participants receives

significant emphasis in the forum program and agenda.
Topics to be covered include ibogaine’s mechanism of action, safety
and
efficacy, interaction with memory and neurophysiology, and
ethnographic
and policy perspectives. The proposed presenters have accumulated
significant new data on neurobiological, clinical, and sociocultural
aspects of ibogaine.

Advocacy Groups:

Cures not Wars 1-212-677-7180
www.cures-not-wars.org
cnw@cures-not-wars.org
MindVox http://ibogaine.mindvox.com

Benu Project 1-212-304-0035
Dora Weiner Foundation 1-718-442-2754

Positive Health Project 1-212-465-8304

Harm Reduction Coalition
1-212-213-6376

Sponsored in part by:
CURESnotWARS
www.cures-not-wars.org * 9 Bleecker St. NYC 10012
(212) 677-7180 e-mail: info@cures-not-wars.org

———–

CBS 5 Special Reports
http://www2.cbs5.com/specialreports/local_story_034171611.html
U. of Miami Set to Resume FDA-Approved Phase I Ibogaine Trial

Feb 3, 2005 2:12 pm US/Pacific
(CBS 5) For millions of people who suffer from alcoholism and drug
addiction, rehabilitation is a long painful struggle.

For Greg Douglass, being a rock star and being a drug addict seemed
to
go hand and hand.

“Monday, discovered heroin. Tuesday, started making more money.
Wednesday, started making a lot more money, which of course buys a
lot
more drugs. It was an ill-timed career move,” he says.

The Oakland native was a guitarist for the likes of Steve Miler, Van
Morrison, and the Greg Kihn Band, playing to huge crowds. He even
wrote
the hit single “Jungle Love” for the Steve Miller Band. But
eventually,
the bright lights came crashing down around him.

“During 1977 — top of the charts, playing in front of 100,000 people

at a time,” Douglass says. “Ten years later I was virtually homeless
living in my car.”

Douglass struggled with heroin and methadone addiction for decades
until two years ago, when he discovered a different kind of drug in a

clinic just over the San Diego border. The drug could help him kick
his
addictions with a single treatment. It was called ibogaine.

“I went to the clinic in Mexico and took ibogaine once, and
everything
changed,” Douglass says. “Twenty-year addiction to opiates, heroin,
methadone, you name it, ended in one eight-hour period.”

Even more startling is the drugs’ origins. Ibogaine is an ancient
root
found in the jungles of Africa, where it’s been used for centuries in

tribal rituals. Researchers believe it contains chemical properties
that may affect key receptors in the brain.

“We think it is very powerful in terms of blocking cravings and helps

individuals during the early stages of recovery,” says Dr. Deborah
Mash
of the University of Miami.

A new study conducted with rats and mice at U.C. San Francisco found
further evidence that ibogaine may have a similar effect combating
alcohol abuse. So if the drug has so much promise, why is it illegal
here in the United States? Possibly because of something that
Douglass
also experienced in the clinic in Mexico. Ibogaine causes
hallucinations.

“All of the sudden, I was laying there with my eyes closed and a huge

whoosh of red light, little particles of red plankton. Then from out
of
that was a picture of my own face when I was 11 years old,” Douglass
says. “When I opened my eyes, I was in Mexico. I knew exactly where I

was. I knew what day it was. I knew why I was there. I would close my

eyes and I would be in a whole other world.”

But far from being a controversial side effect, Mash believes that
the
hallucinations may be beneficial.

“It is a psychotropic drug, mind altering,” she says. “I say we ware
replacing a negative with a positive. If this is a spiritual wake up
call, bring it on. If this helps the individual grab the demon and
motivates them to work with a counselor and to stay in treatment, who

cares if it is mind altering. It is mind altering and it is a good
thing that it is.”

But the stigma of a hallucinogenic drug made it hard for Mash to find

the funding. So she was forced to move her clinical trials offshore.
While the FDA still doesn’t allow ibogaine use in the U.S., a growing

number of patients are receiving treatment in clinics like the one we

visited in Mexico.

“I feel great,” said Wilda Penney, an alcoholic. “Hopefully I can get

on with my life.”

Despite the promise of ibogaine, there are still some hurdles.
Critics
worry about potentially lethal side effects and lack of long-term
studies. Still, the early results are so encouraging, Mash has found
enough money to start FDA trials again in the spring. The cost of a
typical treatment with ibogaine runs anywhere from $3000 to $10,000.

“If there is anybody out there listening to this, there is hope,”
Douglass said. “Ibogaine changed everything. It is not a miracle
cure,
but it worked for me.”
————————–

From:     dana@phantom.com
Subject:        [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list, but my actions
and
words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter Cohen thread, so
here
goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in legalization circles

for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it was telling that

he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go on in his
assigned
order, which would given me a chance to refute his screed point by
point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is
not
much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and that different
drug
effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit as ignorant and
bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the twelvesteppers who say
“ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.” Peter displays
absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the U.S., methadone
represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is illegal, and
stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or that methadone
is
an exquisite instrument of social control, and that Ibogaine frees
you
from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so ultra-secular that he
is
quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion (still recovering
from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of the word “Cult” to

describe the ibogaine movement was particularly obnoxious, given that

it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by the Bushoids.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring was so effective
in
’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own inhouse trial of
Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only guarantee of a
reasonable development timeline and transparency of results) that I
suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it. There was
possibly
one half of a degree of separation between Ernie Drucker and John
Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove of the HRC at the
time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit leaked over to
the
ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove described the position
of
the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model, with an emphasis on
market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS ibogaine) as “the
potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is ibogaine.” (Which

would be a major advance, when you think about it–but we also called

explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts of ALL drugs.)

(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us out 10 years ago
are
now looking for ways to stop binge crystal meth/unsafe sex. The
recent
finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial cell-line derived
neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior confirms that ibogaine
ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of GAY CITY NEWS.
But
Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports the original 1994
decision, and takes the position that there is no more effective
medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than wellbutrin–that if

you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re talking “miracle
drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic that the people
currently getting enough money to FINISH testing ibogaine, and
spending
it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign instead, voted against
ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to crystal, and ended
up
contracting a more more drug-resistent form of HIV…

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine? What if they’d
chose
a completely different menu of drugs if they could determine what was

being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or Afghan warlords? We
had
a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then Owsley flooded the
country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a problem only for the

fringes of the drug scene.

So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in the hall after the
forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall out. Different
drugs have different effects, even though Peter replied that he never

takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously. Ibogaine was
developed
by the druggies themselves as an act of self-determination.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to exorcism. If it
really is possible to replicate the physical processes in the brain
induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that it be controlled

by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).

So like the Marxists, Cohen says that things have to become really
terrible so that the system is overthrown–before they can become
better– no matter that the suffering that is going on right at this
movement is totally unnecessary. The important thing is that his
position be vindicated.

I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and

so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their
professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B.
Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred
Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come
to
New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for

free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

I dunno. The straight left (ACT UP was taken over by Workers’ World)
isn’t doing as well right now as we are. Lynn Stewart was just
convicted for helping blind Sheik communicate with his followers in
Egypt; Deborah Mash just resumed FDA-approved trials of Ibogaine.
Lemme
see– Us forcing to system to legalize ANY psychedelic drug (even one

as weird as ibogaine) doesn’t sound defeatist to me. Not compared to
going to prison.

But then I was never big on the heroin solution anyway.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Vector Vector wrote:
I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him
or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Wrong! After he told me neurochemistry is irrelevant, and I said
facts
are stubborn things, I patted him on the back and said (in my best
Hail
Fellow Well-met voice) “Admit it, Peter, you support prohibition of
Ibogaine!” And he does, because he seeks to ban it from discussion
at
legalization forums, to cast this pall over it so as to hamstring any

movement to legalize it in the U.S. (the onlybig country where it’s
illegal, and one pushing to prohibit everywhere else, as was just
done
in Denmark because Indra was sending it directly into the U.S.)

Sara wrote:
Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for
sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a
sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the
picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

Actually I think he’s bad for legalization. He is, for instance, also

against  the Dutch separation of marijuana and hard drugs, because he

said so when I tried to ask him where Dutch gov’t fact sheets
originated describing the decline of heroin use after the adoption of

the current system. If you can’t even tolerate personal use amounts
of
grass, forget about personal use amounts of everything else. What he
seems to  be for is market anarchy without the social benefit of
regulation–which never will help you sell any liberalization of the
drug situation to the politicians. Or as I said to Donald Grove, does

that mean that wherever marijuana and hashish are present, cocaine
and
heroin must be allowed also? Or that you hand over control of the
marijuana market to people who will use the money to feel their
habits,
while turning on all their customers to smack?

Howard wrote:
I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is
reported
to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to
speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s
method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all
process
and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

The reason Howard never saw it was that it never happened. I think he

may have actually walking down the hall with us when I was talking to

Peter, so he wouldn’t have seen any yelling, because there was none.

I admit being peeved that Peter dodged any actual debate. His rap
would
have focused my presentation on Ibogaine since 1990, which would have

shortened it at least 40%.

Steve Anker wrote:
Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming
conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as
possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and
take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in
NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered
together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate
for
a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be
honored
to be there while you go through it.

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a
relapsing junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want
the
$4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days,
not
unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Nick, I am not sure I understand you.
You say

” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the
mind.

Please explain.

Nick is actually atypical on the list, in backing the social
“encouragement” of people to quit. Cohen, on the other hand, is a
utopian anarchist. Myself, I’m a marijuana bolshevik, advocating that

all soft drugs scenes separate themselves from hard drugs by pushing
ibogaine.

Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power
people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes cutting

the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical
pain
people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.
I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be
counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!
ciao
pc

Why not ibogaine?

Hi Peter,

I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight
particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under the

influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly.
Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting
the
rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much
apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.

Not exactly harm reduction.

For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to access
to
psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively low
level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to say
that
people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as
opiates,
whenever they want without regard for the highly physically addictive

nature of these drugs.

In the U.S., all that is allowed is methadone, buprenorphin, and
SSRI’s. No pot, no psychedelics, except peyote for Native Americans.
People who want to change this are every bit as utopian as the 12
step
fascists and the utopian libertarians, you understand. We just want a

different outcome.

Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on
ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you
make your position more clear? You have something against this
substance?

About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are
great
for as long as needed.

Regards

Nick

His stance on Ibogaine is simple: it has always threatened to take
over
the legalization agenda, and to make all his favorite arguments
obsolete. Why– he might actually have to read up on neurochemistry.
I
remember one ibo forum at the Lindesmith Center: Ethan Nadelmann
literally had to be told by everyone in the room that they wanted to
continue the presentation on neuro-chem when he tried to stop it
because he didn’t understand it and he was getting bored. They’re all

the same.

Randy wrote:
I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and
make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to.
It
just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize Methadone,

and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not
to
mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions.
That’s
just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not
talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who
wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting
around
thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and don’t

know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a
choice.
A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I looked
hard,
very hard. If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine then it
just
can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to interrupt their
addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer they have to
suffer
needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my treatment I would
have
done it just for the addiction interruption aspects of Ibogaine, but
man those trails were cool and the Holideck was incredible. I hope
they
never take the trip out of Ibogaine. I’m afraid that Steve is
right.      Randy

I guess the ones who want out will just have to go on being cannon
fodder in Peter’s war of ideas. Too bad real people suffer and die.
But
for these academics, it’s a living.

Cures not Wars has a simple three part program:

1) Turn control of all aspects of drugs policy including law
enforcement over to ibogaine proponents. The other people had their
chance, and they muffed it.

2) National Service (a draft) for all opponents of ibogaine and
cannabis, in a kind of a cross between the peace corps and the
civilian
conservation corps.

3) Focus the effort on reversing global warming through water
reclamation projects, replacing trees with hemp, etc. Tax every
entity
that had cannabis prohibition to pay for it.

 

Marijuana Bolshevism.
Dana/cnw

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 12, 2005 at 6:28:07 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It is very simple, if Iboga makes people more happy within it should be
available for what ever need you want to try it for.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2005 0:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo Forum @ Alex Grey’s Feb 20, 21; FDA Trial Resumes
Date: February 12, 2005 at 8:07:02 PM EST
To: “Ibogaine List” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Dana Beal
To: narda@lifefood.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:57 PM
Subject: Ibo Forum @ Alex Grey’s Feb 20, 21; FDA Trial Resumes
Ibogaine Forum Schedule
February 20-21
(Sunday-Monday)

Alex Grey’s Gallery
Chapel of Sacred Mirrors
540 West 27th Street
Fourth Floor
Registration: $20 per day
212-677-4899

Sunday, February 20, 2005;
Noon to 7 pm
12:00 noon-12:45 pm Registration; Introductory remarks: Rommel Washington, Benu Project.

12:45 pm-3:15 pm
Ibogaine and the Search for Lost Sacraments. Moderated by Alex Grey,  with Dana Beal, author, The Ibogaine Story, Carl Ruck, PhD, author, The Apples of Apollo, Rev. Ron Sala, Unitarian, Rob Gordon, Cures Not Wars.

Discussion

3:15 pm-3:45 pm Break

3:45 pm-5:45 pm Hands-on Ibogaine Treatment: Tips and Pointers with Howard Lotsof, Patrick Kroupa, Dimitri Mugianis, Adam Nodelman, Chris Laurance and Andrea Aplementos

5:45 pm-7:00 pm
Screening of Ibogaine: Rite of Passage
with Ben De Loenen

Monday, February 21, 2005;
10 am to 7 pm

10:00 am-10:30 am
Registration;
Introductory Remarks:
H.S. Lotsof

10:30 am-11:30 am
New Findings: Dopamine, Craving, and the Ibogaine Effect. Carl Anderson, PhD
11:30 am-1:15 pm
Medical Ibogaine Therapy
Jeffrey Kamlet, MD, with intro by Patrick Kroupa.
1:15 pm-1:45 pm Break

1:45 pm-3:15 pm Scientific Panel: Assessing the New Possibilities of Ibogaine. Kenneth R. Alper, MD, Emmanuel Onaivi, PhD, John Freelander. Discussion

3:15 pm-3:45 pm  Break

3:45-5:15 pm Ibogaine Anti-Viral Effects
Vic Hernandez, PhD, Chris Laurance, Jason Farell, Richie D. Discussion

5:15 pm-7:00 pm
Final Wrap-up Panel. Kenneth Alper, MD and principal
panelists.

The Monday session will be attended by representatives of various city and state agencies.

Jeffrey Kamlet, MD, is chief attending physician at the Healing Visions clinic in St. Kitts, and the president of the Florida Society of Addiction Medicine.

Kenneth Alper, MD, is an Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurology at NYU School of Medicine, and organized the 1999 First International Conference on Ibogaine and co-edited (w. Stanley Glick) the Proceedings of that conference (The Alkaloids Vol. 57, Acad. Press, 2001).

Emmanuel Onaivi, PhD, Assistant Professor at William Paterson College, M.Sc. in Pharmacology, Ph.D. in Neuropharmacology. He will present on NIDA-
funded studies of the effects of ibogaine on gene expression activated by alcohol and addictive drugs.

Howard Lotsof Discovered Ibogaine as an effective drug detox treatment. Holder of patents for ibogaine’s
use vs.: * Narcotics * Stimulants * Nicotine
* Alcohol * PolyDrug Dependence.

What is Ibogaine?
Ibogaine, derived from the African root Tabernanthe iboga,  has a novel mechanism of action that is different from other pharmacotherapeutic approaches to addiction. Relevant issues to be addressed by this forum include  the distinctive social and ethnographic aspects of the informal ibogaine treatment context, its cost-effectiveness as a treatment option, and the policy implications of ibogaine’s status as a Schedule 1 substance.

Ibogaine is currently without formal approval as a treatment option in the U.S. However, a distinctive unofficial treatment network, created by international self-help movements in response to the demand of the addicts, has provided ibogaine treatment in non-medical settings such as an apartment or country house.

Participants in this forum will represent the basic and clinical neurosciences, the disciplines of ethnography and sociology, and the FDA, NIDA and the pharmaceutical industry. The promotion of discussion and exchange of information and views among the participants receives significant emphasis in the forum program and agenda.

Topics to be covered include ibogaine’s mechanism of action, safety and efficacy, interaction with memory and neurophysiology, and ethnographic and policy perspectives. The proposed presenters have accumulated significant new data on neurobiological, clinical, and sociocultural aspects of ibogaine.

Advocacy Groups:

Cures not Wars 1-212-677-7180
www.cures-not-wars.org
cnw@cures-not-wars.org
MindVox http://ibogaine.mindvox.com

Benu Project 1-212-304-0035
Dora Weiner Foundation 1-718-442-2754

Positive Health Project 1-212-465-8304

Harm Reduction Coalition
1-212-213-6376

Sponsored in part by:
CURESnotWARS
www.cures-not-wars.org * 9 Bleecker St. NYC 10012
(212) 677-7180 e-mail: info@cures-not-wars.org

———–

CBS 5 Special Reports
http://www2.cbs5.com/specialreports/local_story_034171611.html
U. of Miami Set to Resume FDA-Approved Phase I Ibogaine Trial

Feb 3, 2005 2:12 pm US/Pacific
(CBS 5) For millions of people who suffer from alcoholism and drug addiction, rehabilitation is a long painful struggle.

For Greg Douglass, being a rock star and being a drug addict seemed to go hand and hand.

“Monday, discovered heroin. Tuesday, started making more money. Wednesday, started making a lot more money, which of course buys a lot more drugs. It was an ill-timed career move,” he says.

The Oakland native was a guitarist for the likes of Steve Miler, Van Morrison, and the Greg Kihn Band, playing to huge crowds. He even wrote the hit single “Jungle Love” for the Steve Miller Band. But eventually, the bright lights came crashing down around him.

“During 1977 — top of the charts, playing in front of 100,000 people at a time,” Douglass says. “Ten years later I was virtually homeless living in my car.”

Douglass struggled with heroin and methadone addiction for decades until two years ago, when he discovered a different kind of drug in a clinic just over the San Diego border. The drug could help him kick his addictions with a single treatment. It was called ibogaine.

“I went to the clinic in Mexico and took ibogaine once, and everything changed,” Douglass says. “Twenty-year addiction to opiates, heroin, methadone, you name it, ended in one eight-hour period.”

Even more startling is the drugs’ origins. Ibogaine is an ancient root found in the jungles of Africa, where it’s been used for centuries in tribal rituals. Researchers believe it contains chemical properties that may affect key receptors in the brain.

“We think it is very powerful in terms of blocking cravings and helps individuals during the early stages of recovery,” says Dr. Deborah Mash of the University of Miami.

A new study conducted with rats and mice at U.C. San Francisco found further evidence that ibogaine may have a similar effect combating alcohol abuse. So if the drug has so much promise, why is it illegal here in the United States? Possibly because of something that Douglass also experienced in the clinic in Mexico. Ibogaine causes hallucinations.

“All of the sudden, I was laying there with my eyes closed and a huge whoosh of red light, little particles of red plankton. Then from out of that was a picture of my own face when I was 11 years old,” Douglass says. “When I opened my eyes, I was in Mexico. I knew exactly where I was. I knew what day it was. I knew why I was there. I would close my eyes and I would be in a whole other world.”

But far from being a controversial side effect, Mash believes that the hallucinations may be beneficial.

“It is a psychotropic drug, mind altering,” she says. “I say we ware replacing a negative with a positive. If this is a spiritual wake up call, bring it on. If this helps the individual grab the demon and motivates them to work with a counselor and to stay in treatment, who cares if it is mind altering. It is mind altering and it is a good thing that it is.”

But the stigma of a hallucinogenic drug made it hard for Mash to find the funding. So she was forced to move her clinical trials offshore. While the FDA still doesn’t allow ibogaine use in the U.S., a growing number of patients are receiving treatment in clinics like the one we visited in Mexico.

“I feel great,” said Wilda Penney, an alcoholic. “Hopefully I can get on with my life.”

Despite the promise of ibogaine, there are still some hurdles. Critics worry about potentially lethal side effects and lack of long-term studies. Still, the early results are so encouraging, Mash has found enough money to start FDA trials again in the spring. The cost of a typical treatment with ibogaine runs anywhere from $3000 to $10,000.

“If there is anybody out there listening to this, there is hope,” Douglass said. “Ibogaine changed everything. It is not a miracle cure, but it worked for me.”
————————–

From:     dana@phantom.com
Subject:        [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list, but my actions and words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter Cohen thread, so here goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in legalization circles for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it was telling that he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go on in his assigned order, which would given me a chance to refute his screed point by point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and that different drug effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit as ignorant and bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the twelvesteppers who say “ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.” Peter displays absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the U.S., methadone represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is illegal, and stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or that methadone is an exquisite instrument of social control, and that Ibogaine frees you from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so ultra-secular that he is quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion (still recovering from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of the word “Cult” to describe the ibogaine movement was particularly obnoxious, given that it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by the Bushoids.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring was so effective  in ’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own inhouse trial of Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only guarantee of a reasonable development timeline and transparency of results) that I suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it. There was possibly one half of a degree of separation between Ernie Drucker and John Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove of the HRC at the time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit leaked over to the ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove described the position of the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model, with an emphasis on market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS ibogaine) as “the potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is ibogaine.” (Which would be a major advance, when you think about it–but we also called explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts of ALL drugs.)

(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us out 10 years ago are now looking for ways to stop binge crystal meth/unsafe sex. The recent finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial cell-line derived neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior confirms that ibogaine ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of GAY CITY NEWS. But Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports the original 1994 decision, and takes the position that there is no more effective medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than wellbutrin–that if you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re talking “miracle drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic that the people currently getting enough money to FINISH testing ibogaine, and spending it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign instead, voted against ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to crystal, and ended up contracting a more more drug-resistent form of HIV…

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine? What if they’d chose a completely different menu of drugs if they could determine what was being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or Afghan warlords? We had a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then Owsley flooded the country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a problem only for the fringes of the drug scene.

So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in the hall after the forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall out. Different drugs have different effects, even though Peter replied that he never takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously. Ibogaine was developed by the druggies themselves as an act of self-determination.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to exorcism. If it really is possible to replicate the physical processes in the brain induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that it be controlled by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).

So like the Marxists, Cohen says that things have to become really terrible so that the system is overthrown–before they can become better– no matter that the suffering that is going on right at this movement is totally unnecessary. The important thing is that his position be vindicated.

I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B. Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come to New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

I dunno. The straight left (ACT UP was taken over by Workers’ World) isn’t doing as well right now as we are. Lynn Stewart was just convicted for helping blind Sheik communicate with his followers in Egypt; Deborah Mash just resumed FDA-approved trials of Ibogaine. Lemme see– Us forcing to system to legalize ANY psychedelic drug (even one as weird as ibogaine) doesn’t sound defeatist to me. Not compared to going to prison.

But then I was never big on the heroin solution anyway.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Vector Vector wrote:
I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Wrong! After he told me neurochemistry is irrelevant, and I said facts are stubborn things, I patted him on the back and said (in my best Hail Fellow Well-met voice) “Admit it, Peter, you support prohibition of Ibogaine!” And he does, because he seeks to ban it from discussion at  legalization forums, to cast this pall over it so as to hamstring any movement to legalize it in the U.S. (the onlybig country where it’s illegal, and one pushing to prohibit everywhere else, as was just done in Denmark because Indra was sending it directly into the U.S.)

Sara wrote:
Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

Actually I think he’s bad for legalization. He is, for instance, also against  the Dutch separation of marijuana and hard drugs, because he said so when I tried to ask him where Dutch gov’t fact sheets originated describing the decline of heroin use after the adoption of the current system. If you can’t even tolerate personal use amounts of grass, forget about personal use amounts of everything else. What he seems to  be for is market anarchy without the social benefit of regulation–which never will help you sell any liberalization of the drug situation to the politicians. Or as I said to Donald Grove, does that mean that wherever marijuana and hashish are present, cocaine and heroin must be allowed also? Or that you hand over control of the marijuana market to people who will use the money to feel their habits, while turning on all their customers to smack?

Howard wrote:
I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all process and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

The reason Howard never saw it was that it never happened. I think he may have actually walking down the hall with us when I was talking to Peter, so he wouldn’t have seen any yelling, because there was none.

I admit being peeved that Peter dodged any actual debate. His rap would have focused my presentation on Ibogaine since 1990, which would have shortened it at least 40%.

Steve Anker wrote:
Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate for a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be honored to be there while you go through it.

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a relapsing junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want the $4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days, not unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Nick, I am not sure I understand you.
You say

” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Please explain.

Nick is actually atypical on the list, in backing the social “encouragement” of people to quit. Cohen, on the other hand, is a utopian anarchist. Myself, I’m a marijuana bolshevik, advocating that all soft drugs scenes separate themselves from hard drugs by pushing ibogaine.

Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes cutting the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical pain people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.
I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!
ciao
pc

Why not ibogaine?

Hi Peter,

I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under the influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly. Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting the rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.

Not exactly harm reduction.

For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to access to psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively low level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to say that people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as opiates, whenever they want without regard for the highly physically addictive nature of these drugs.

In the U.S., all that is allowed is methadone, buprenorphin, and SSRI’s. No pot, no psychedelics, except peyote for Native Americans. People who want to change this are every bit as utopian as the 12 step fascists and the utopian libertarians, you understand. We just want a different outcome.

Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you make your position more clear? You have something against this substance?

About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are great for as long as needed.

Regards

Nick

His stance on Ibogaine is simple: it has always threatened to take over the legalization agenda, and to make all his favorite arguments obsolete. Why– he might actually have to read up on neurochemistry. I remember one ibo forum at the Lindesmith Center: Ethan Nadelmann literally had to be told by everyone in the room that they wanted to continue the presentation on neuro-chem when he tried to stop it because he didn’t understand it and he was getting bored. They’re all the same.

Randy wrote:
I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to. It just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize Methadone, and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not to mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions. That’s just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting around thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and don’t know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a choice. A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I looked hard, very hard. If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine then it just can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to interrupt their addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer they have to suffer needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my treatment I would have done it just for the addiction interruption aspects of Ibogaine, but man those trails were cool and the Holideck was incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of Ibogaine. I’m afraid that Steve is right.      Randy

I guess the ones who want out will just have to go on being cannon fodder in Peter’s war of ideas. Too bad real people suffer and die. But for these academics, it’s a living.

Cures not Wars has a simple three part program:

1) Turn control of all aspects of drugs policy including law enforcement over to ibogaine proponents. The other people had their chance, and they muffed it.

2) National Service (a draft) for all opponents of ibogaine and cannabis, in a kind of a cross between the peace corps and the civilian conservation corps.

3) Focus the effort on reversing global warming through water reclamation projects, replacing trees with hemp, etc. Tax every entity that had cannabis prohibition to pay for it.

Marijuana Bolshevism.
Dana/cnw

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Note from Andria re; Peter Cohen
Date: February 12, 2005 at 8:06:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/12/2005 10:24:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, andria3a@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Thanks Nick, Randy, y’all: I’m resisting getting back on the Iboga list cos of overwork already but looking forward to the conf. in NYC soon..
Some comments about this ‘resistance’ from Prof Cohen:

***A) PC is a brilliant man though using his huge intellect to bad-rap a treatment for addiction, which clearly has validity, use and healing for our peers/community and family and therefore our communities generally, annoys me A LOT.

B) At the New Mexico Lindesmith Conference, Marsha Rosenbaum, a woman I happen to admire a lot otherwise, tried to stop Dana from speaking and had I not intervened, would prolly have succeeded. I called her weeks later, to ask why she did that and she said she had forgotten even doing it..

C)There clearly is something about Iboga that upsets those with money and power in the movement, but I am unclear as to what it is…whatever it is, they are not articulating with any convincing to me. I think it’s personal, not theoretical, political or economic actually. BUT y’know when people have such fantastic brains, they can waste time with arguments that some will find interesting if unhelpful

D) PC is a star in some circles, so people like to connect to him: I love his mischievious childlike nature but I have had many one to ones with him and I often end up feeling unappreciated, so i keep a little distance from him nowadays.

E) I have written a longish e-mail to him, Nadelmann & Rosenbaum, saying in short, PLEASE stop being so arrogant…”if addicts are saying that Iboga improves their lives, nobody
(including y’all) should be throwing theoretcial spanners in the works.”

I hope life is treating U all well.

Better go shopping: fridge’s empty

Solidarity and Strength

Andria E-Mordaunt

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 8:02:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In this case the employe is responsible
—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Cohen” <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

Preston, your girlfriend has no legal responsability for whom the
doormen let enter, not whom she serves.The owner has this
responsabilty AND has to put a check-age system in place, and in
writing inform all staff what their part in the system is.Pay no
fine, have your girlfiend be member of a Union, get a lawyer, your
girl should walk free/unfined! If the owner sacks her, there is a lot
of mony to be made out of him.
Good bar tender position in NY galore.
pc

At 08:29 -0500 12-02-2005, Preston Peet wrote:
Hi all and top of the morning to you.
As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a
dj, a cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug
deale…I mean, bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan,
known for it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused
crowd. She had to work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting
up her bar, just after 10, she saw very few customers, but did serve
a few the first halfhour behind the bar.
Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has
her ID with her.
“Yes, why?”
“Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.


Peter D.A.Cohen
Grote Bickerstraat 57a
1013kp Amsterdam
The Netherlands
telephone +31204222616
or +31622789441(cell)

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] eyesight problems revisited
Date: February 12, 2005 at 7:41:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Cannabis increases blood flow in your eyes, that is why they get red, you can’t believe everything you read.  There is a US citizen that is prescribed cannabis for glaucoma(so some doctors believe it is beneficial), also the opinions of doctors that make their money from selling prescription medicine should, definitely, be taken with a grain of salt, seeing as how they stand to lose money.  If we used more natural medicines like herbs and fungus, we would have more cures and less maintenance and symptom treating drugs…  We all know the propaganda spread by governments about cannabis’ danger, most negative results are debated by many other scientists, and many of the results aren’t reproducable or they’re flawed.  Cannabis is safe and helpful for almost every problem I have, including when I was kicking methadone with iboga…  Never noticed any vision problems, here and I’ve been smoking for 12 years.

slowone@hush.ai wrote:
How many of those who attribute eyesight problems to ibogaine are
smoking pot? When I took a break for a week, I found that I could
use weaker eyeglasses that I had stopped using for reading.

I still think that ibogaine may have its own effect on vision based
on my last experience several months ago, but now I think that pot
can also have an effect, possibly in conjunction with ibogaine.

Mechanisms that come to mind are pupil dilation, lowered pressure
in the eye, and reduction of blood flow to the optic nerve. The
mechanism could be different in both cases, and ibogaine might
potentiate a different mechanism for marijuana.. or it could all be
a coincidence.

“It borders on malpractice to give marijuana for glaucoma. While it
can reduce intraocular pressure (with huge doses of pot), it also
can constrict blood supply to the optic nerve, exacerbating vision
problems. There are far safer and better drugs.” (Pot as Medicine,
Washington Post, February 7, 1997)

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] withdrawals from bup
Date: February 12, 2005 at 7:20:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I tried bupe and because I was dissappointed to still feel pretty crappy afterwards, I ended up using again.  I don’t think I was quite ready yet, though, either…

AbbotAngel@aol.com wrote:
Hi Ron
When I did the Bup I tapered down to half a 0.02 and then a qaurter of of 0.02 tablet and withdrawals were not really bad but i did feel bad for about a week or so afterwards really lethargic and lifeless and had trouble sleeping, I was really upset because I was not expecting to withdraw from it at all.  Im starting the bup again tomorro and the only thing I will do differently is taper down quickly.  I hope this helps and you might not feel as bad as I did.

Love Donna
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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] To V through Preston
Date: February 12, 2005 at 6:48:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, I have not wrote in a long time and I am sorry that I am motivated to write to you about V’s predicament. So is life! I really think she should hire a lawyer and argue the position that the customers are supposed to be carded at door. I would anyway. Her boss might not like it cause it puts the liability back at him and his security.
Do you have to be sanctioned to sell liquor as a bartender in New Tork? Like a liquor license? If so, is hers in jeopardy?
You know too, I am interested in who the undercover customer was and how they came into being in that position! Maybe a cops teen or something? lol! All jokes aside, it is an interesting question.
Hope you are well.
I changed to digest and honestly don’t read as much of list as I used too. I have missed it though. But there is so much for me to do other than sitting on my plump bum typing away on the keyboard and staring at the screen with mouse in hand!
I will look for your response. Give V a hug from Callie and tell her she will benefit in the end. We benefit from every obstacle thrown in our path. Maybe she needs to slow down a bit and be more aware.
This too shall pass……..and more shit will be around the corner!
Peace, Callie

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen’s reply.
Date: February 12, 2005 at 6:17:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 12 February 2005 21:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen’s reply.

NOTE: I did not write this.

I am posting Peter Cohen’s letter at his request.

He is on the list, and should be able to read and reply.

Patrick

From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>

Dana, thanks for responding in writing. Mostly I have not a clue what
you are saying, or accusing me of, but never mind.

Let me begin to apologise for some of my wording, and the mistake I
made to not connect to the real need of people to change their ways
under the present social and legal circumstances around intense drug
use .
In that sense my reasoning is too stiff and irrealistic, and it
unnesearly blocks understanding of what I would most like  to come
through of my words.

Now,  some of my assumptions:

I have never accpeted the old theory about addiction as disease, nor
much else about the concept of addiction. I consider the concept of
addiction as an outgrowth ( in the 18th century) of the then already
used concepts of ‘possession, and being’bewitched’. Concepts that refer
to the snatching of the soul, or the will, by an evil alien force.
These concepts reflect our incapacity to understand particular
behaviour as very ‘human’ and therefor they are ‘extra human’, alien.
Drugs are  an alien force ( like the devil , or a witch), and in the
alcohol litterature from the mid 18th century the model for alcohol as
a soul snatcher is created.Later this model was generalised to other
drugs. All these soul snatchers ( witches,drugs alcohol included), have
been prohibited in the USA at some time or another since the mid 17th
century.

Modern neurological theory that says addiction is  brain disease is a
small permutation of the original dogma, that alien forces  can
deregulate (sicken) our inner self, our core self. Neurology tries to
understand now where this happens, and it says: in the brain. And
neurologists make theory about this and create images ( brain scans
they call them) to illustrate their ideas. In a nutshell they say that
drugs will incapacitate the brain’s centers of ‘good’ decision making
and then they locate the cells where this happens.( They, of course,
define what ‘good’ decision making is, not I, the head of which they
made the scan)

If addiction is a way of learned adaptation, we should no longer use
the word addiction, but ‘ a life style in which the intense and
sometimes frequent use of drugs is an adaptive tool”.

Sometimes tools become obsolete, and the explanation of why so many
people leave dysfunctional adaptations is exactly that: loss of
usefulness.

But some tools may also carry heavy stigma .Religeons were forbidden,
sexual behaviours chosen by some were forbidden, types( patterns) of
drug use are forbidden because they all conflict with general ideals
about human existence. This is a sort of legitimization of prohibiting
these behaviours.

I agree fully with Dana that methadone is not only a chemical
compound, but much more an instrument of discipline in a world that
prohibits the self chosen use of opiates in spite of the fact that some
people like them, and some even need them to survive. If I choose to
use opiates it is not okay, but if my doctor makes that choice for me,
it is. We prohibit not so much the opiate, but the intention and
symbolical context of some types of use. The doctor can give me
methadone to help me live with my type of adapatation, but not the type
of opiate I like better.

Methadone can help people, but only ( or mostly) at the conditions of
the doctor.

And here we reach the core of what I would like to clarify: the doctor
stands for society’s choice to prohibit me the self chosen use of
opiates. He wants me to be either abstinent, or use his opaites in ways
he prescribes.If I fail, hopla. to jail ,or at least no more
assistence.

Overcoming use and reaching abstinence is society’s goal with me if I
use opiates. Overcoming ‘addiction’ by means of ‘treatment’ is what is
supposed to happen. The ibo people say: use ibo to overcome
addiction.The whitecoats say: use my compounds or life rules to
overcome.

My mistake is that I approach these things in a too  theoretical
fashion. I reason: the desire to become abstinent is a solid by product
of our social ways of prohibiting opiates and other drugs, and the idea
of an ideal human being that lurks behind these prohibitions.

But, as some of the ibo people told me, it may not be a by product of
social force alone; it may be a genuine desire ,never mind the way this
desire developed in me.

Okay. That is true.

If I approach the ibo people with this Okay, could they approach me
with more understanding of my problems with the self chosen use of ibo?
Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has
created its usefulness: prohibition. I see ibo as ‘just one of these
treatments’ in a very symbolical sense.I am not talking about the
pleasure of taking ibo, or its high level of interestingness, I am not
refering to its  subjective functionality, but to its social symbolism.

I maintain that the illustration I used about homosexuality could
clarify this. People of course have the right to not want to be gay.
But if society jails gays, marginalises them, blackmails them and
ultimately destroys their identity, it is not fair to  ask people to
remain gay, and true to their ‘inner self’.Of course I understand their
desire to ungay themselves, and if they use ibo to do that ,be my
guest.But the social function of the ibo in that context is : society’s
soldier that chases the gayness out of gays. And I do not accept that
because of my weird idea that gays have the right to be gays, and
similar, intense drug users have the right to pursue that life style.

I have used the word ibo CLAN because of the special circle in which
ibo is developing its mythical status.For me it is just another
‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and within a theoretical NIDA
govererend dominance of pharmacological understanding of intense drug
use, not a psychological understanding or a societal one. Its like (
not the same!) as these compounds the industry now works on to block
ALL ‘addictive’ behavior or ‘craving’, to be injected  from birth
on.What a money maker ,this ulimate pharmacological zombyiser.

To Sara, giving me ibo, and making me part of the interesting
experience, would not change my ideas.My subjective reaction to ibo and
my discussion of the social function of ibo are different levels of
observation or analysis.

pc

PS Dana shouted at me at the top of his voice in the New Orleans
hotel. I did not really mind. Angry people do that.

Dear Peter,

Many thanks for taking the time to join this list and for replying to Dana’s
post in such depth.

I hear what you are saying and, theoretically, it is hard to find flaw in
it. But….I invite you to look at life in all its emotional reality, not
just what makes sense from one perspective of mind.

For me, you have to take into account the effect of the drug upon the body
and the brain. The democracy you are speaking of seems to claim that there
is an absolute independence of will regardless of intoxication, that someone
who has been using, say, heroin, for 5 years, has complete free will as to
whether he or she takes the next hit. Do you really believe that? “Uhm now,
well, what drug of choice shall I take today? How will I, with my free will,
choose to alter my consciousness today? Hey, how about heroin?! Ok, so I’ve
made the same choice for the last 5 years, but well that’s my free will.”
Heroin is an analgesic, an industrial strength painkiller. If you’re
struggling in life and your body’s repression system is fighting to hold
down feelings then just one hit of heroin is going to give you such a
feeling of elation that you aren’t easily going to stop using, maybe not
ever, and certainly not until another emotional process comes along with
sufficient strength to shake you out of it, a crisis of some sort, or a
progressive maturation. And, even then, it isn’t going to be easy to stop.
You’re going to need all the help you can get.

I submit that this whole thing you have of making ibogaine into the tool of
some regime to oppress those who seek freedom of choice is simply not
grounded in the reality of today’s world. I mean, no one, possibly bar
myself, is even suggesting this happen. No government agencies seem remotely
interested in ibogaine, they don’t give a shit about addicts and mostly, in
the case of the US government, basically finance all sorts of suspicious
covert operations disrupting foreign governments with the money they gain
from the drug trade anyway. They’ve got no interest in stopping anyone
taking heroin, beyond paying lip service at voting time.

So I urge you to look again at ibogaine and perhaps see the liberation it
profers, frequently to those who had given up all hope. And maybe even to
take a dose. To say it will not change your ideas, now that sounds pretty
closed. How can you know?

Nick

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 5:44:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Preston,

Was their a Company Policy in place?  Good Luck.

Cheers,
J

— Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl> wrote:
Preston, your girlfriend has no legal responsability
for whom the
doormen let enter, not whom she serves.The owner has
this
responsabilty AND has to put a check-age system in
place, and in
writing inform all staff what their part in the
system is.Pay no
fine, have your girlfiend be member of a Union, get
a lawyer, your
girl should walk free/unfined! If the owner sacks
her, there is a lot
of mony to be made out of him.
Good bar tender position in NY galore.
pc

At 08:29 -0500 12-02-2005, Preston Peet wrote:
Hi all and top of the morning to you.
As most of you are probably already aware, my
girlfriend V is a
dj, a cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal
hard drug
deale…I mean, bartender, among some of her many
pursuits.
She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs
in Manhattan,
known for it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and
celebrity-infused
crowd. She had to work last night, going in at
9:30PM. While setting
up her bar, just after 10, she saw very few
customers, but did serve
a few the first halfhour behind the bar.
Then the head manager walks up to her bar and
asks V is she has
her ID with her.
“Yes, why?”
“Grab it and come to the office.” He said
before walking away.


Peter D.A.Cohen
Grote Bickerstraat 57a
1013kp Amsterdam
The Netherlands
telephone +31204222616
or +31622789441(cell)

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From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Meth and AIDS
Date: February 12, 2005 at 5:18:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I hate to complain BUT I haven’t gotten an IBOGAINE missile since
yesterday.  Did I do something wrong?

ann
think@francomm.com

Jules Siegel on my DrugWar list has a question as regards this NYTimes article:

—– Original Message —– From: “Jules Siegel” <siegel@cafecancun.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:37 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] Meth and AIDS

So does methamphetamine use cause symptoms that are similar to AIDS?

<http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2005/02/11/news/HIV.html>
Doctors discover new HIV strain
By Marc Santora and Lawrence K. Altman The New York Times
Saturday, February 12, 2005

[Excerpts]

A previously unknown strain of HIV that is highly resistant to virtually all known drugs and appears to lead to the rapid onset of AIDS was detected in a man last week, New York health officials said Friday.

The virus was found in a New York City man in his mid-40s who engaged in unprotected anal sex with other men on multiple occasions while he was using crystal methamphetamine.


JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764 77501-Cancun Q. Roo Mexico
Cancun User’s Guide 2005 http://www.lulu.com/jules

Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists
http://www.newsroom-l.net/blog

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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen
Date: February 12, 2005 at 4:59:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 12, 2005, at 4:23 PM, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:

I want to say something here. I waited for over two weeks and put a lot of thought into whether posting Peter’s thoughts on this matter was a good idea. I respect Peter for what he has accomplished and meant for no disrespect to be directed towards him. I just kinda figured we are all adults here, (even tho I try and not act like one), and that this was an interesting point of view. I do disagree with some of what Peter says. I guess being passionate about something makes me write stuff that comes across as venomous sometimes. I really tried to refrain from that. Sometimes I joke and people don’t realize I’m joking, and I tried to refrain from that too. To be honest, I’m joking most of the time, but not about this. I am extremely passionate about Ibogaine, and making it available to those who want it. I choose to think that what is going here is growing pains. Ibogaine will not be denied. It works for some of us. Thank God it did for me. Ibonauts UNITE.         Randy

Randy,

Fuck yeah mahn.

And, I did not mean you.  By all means, say whatever is on your mind.

I didn’t mean anyone in particular.  The sole message I wanted to convey was: communication is cool.  Being passionate about your convictions rocks.  But, if at all possible, try to listen to what someone is saying, and respond.

Odds are, they too, will listen.  And if they don’t.  <Shrug>  Well hey, shit happens.

I just wrote that, so when Peter says something, he does not automatically end up with 50 letters of, “I hate you!” prior to anybody bothering to read what he actually says.

Who you callin’ an adult?  I hate grownups.  They’ve died inside.  All their magic has been surgically removed.

Patrick

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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 4:32:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “ARON KAY” <pieman@pieman.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

> cops are so fucking pathetic to waste resources on “underage stings” thanks
> to assholes like gloomberg, fartaki and dumbya…no wonder the world is
> getting sick
> ARON KAY-http://www.pieman.org
> check out the latest mp3
> http://www.pieman.org/helltothechief.mp3
> its by Benedict
> arnold and the Traitors
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:29 AM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
>
>
> > Hi all and top of the morning to you.
> >     As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a dj, a
> > cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug deale…I mean,
> > bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
> >     She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan, known
> for
> > it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused crowd. She had
> to
> > work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting up her bar, just after
> > 10, she saw very few customers, but did serve a few the first halfhour
> > behind the bar.
> >     Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has her ID
> > with her.
> >     “Yes, why?”
> >     “Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.
> >     She grabbed it and headed to the office, where she discovered two
> > undercover NYPD officers waiting for her.
> >     Apparently, she served an underaged, more importantly, FAKE customer.
> > She doesn’t know who it was, thinking perhaps it was one young lady but
> > really doesn’t have a clue, not having been paying attention.
> >     Now, the thing is, V works in a very upscale nightclub with top-notch
> > security, one of those places where the security force (yes, a force for
> all
> > intents and purposes) wears tuxes and those nifty inside the ear radios.
> > They check IDs at the door, so she isn’t supposed to have to worry about
> > that sort of thing. Plus, she nor I have health insurance, making just too
> > much money to qualify for most public assistance were we so inclinded and
> > not enough to really cover much more than we already are. Yet, our taxes
> are
> > going to things like, say, paying the NYPD to hire underage (or are they
> > kids who got in trouble and now work as snitches? Do the police do that
> sort
> > of thing in real life still?) kids to go into bars and nightclubs, pose as
> > customers and attempt to buy alcohol, so the cops can then bust the
> > bartender (and the bar) for the sale and then make some money in court.
> >     Which is what’s going to happen as near as we can tell at this early
> > date. One of the cops took her ID, wrote her a ticket, then handed her the
> > ticket while uttering the most sincere “I’m sorry” ever uttered I’m sure
> > (that jerk). To make it even worse, it’s not a fine that she can just pay,
> > it’s a ticket for a court appearance in March. So the city is going to
> spend
> > even more of our tax money on a hearing over her ticket, then will fine
> her
> > some few hundreds of bucks (we hope that’s the extent of this, that she
> > won’t have to do anything else on top of that).
> >     To say I’m livid about this is an understatement. What in the world is
> > this sort of thing solving or helping or doing to better our society? What
> > in the world are people thinking to stoop to such petty stupidity as this?
> >     To top it off, half an hour later V is asleep, worn out from a night
> of
> > stressing out checking every single customers’ ID, as the management then
> > told the entire staff that every single customer from that point on had to
> > be checked before being served, something they don’t normally have to do
> due
> > to having a door staff that is supposed to be doing it for them before the
> > customers even get in the door due to it being a “21 and over” nightbluc
> > anyway. I’m sitting in my quiet room, writing in my journal and listening
> to
> > my walkman, doing my morning waking up ritual. I reach out and pick up my
> > fully loaded (I’m not out, making this all even more depression, in case
> any
> > officers are reading this- I’M OUT NOW, and never have more than 28 grams
> > when I do have any pot anyway, meaning I’m not breaking NY laws due to
> this,
> > NY, being a decrim state), brand new beautiful hand-blown glass bowl that
> I
> > just finally broke down and bought yesterday, having broken my last one a
> > few weeks ago. I’ve been suffering through not having a bowl since then,
> > having to roll joints, or use a nasty old bong, (hard to take a bong with
> me
> > to a dj gig), or use this neato pipe that is hidden inside a magic marker
> > that V’s sister gave her for Chistmas- actually a fairly decent bowl but
> > it’s not glass, a much nicer material to smoke from. Anyway, I reach out
> and
> > lovingly pick up my brand new, only used twice so far bowl, lift it
> towards
> > my lips, and then completely spaz out, loose all control of my fingers and
> > basically throw the bowl directly to the hard tile floor of my bathroom,
> > shattering the brand new, now useless and wasted bowl.
> >     So, I’d like to ask everyone to please think so positive thoughts in
> our
> > direction as the vibes around us seem to be jangling pretty hard and I’d
> > like them to please calm down a bit.
> > ;-))
> > Thanks for your time and consideration and hopefully for all the good
> > positive vibes everyone is going to sending streaming through the ether.
> >
> >
> >
> > Peace and love,
> > Preston
> >
> > “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> > mistaken for madness”
> > Richard Davenport-Hines
> >
> > ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
> > Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> > Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
> > Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
> > Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
> > Cont. High Times mag/.com
> > Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> > Columnist New York Waste
> > Etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> [%]
> >
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>   /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
>

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 4:28:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

> It happened to another bartender apparently about 2 or 3 months ago, who has
> her own court date on Monday, so V will find out from her what happened in
> terms of a fine and if the bar pays it for her or not.
>     I agree, that the bar should be responsible for this, but we’ll have to
> wait and see what happens. Apparently no one thought to tell V that the
> previous one had happened, and even had they done so she still probably
> would have assumed, especially since it just happened fairly recently, that
> the security types would be much more on top of this sort of thing precisely
> because it had happened before.
>
>
>
> Peace and love,
> Preston
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: <slowone@hush.ai>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
>
>
> >I think the bar should reimburse V if she was following its policy
> > by not checking ID. Or maybe the bouncers who let an underage
> > person in should take up a collection.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
> > secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
> >
> > Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
> > http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
> >
> > Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
> > http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=———————————————————————=[\
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> > [%]
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
>   /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
>

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen
Date: February 12, 2005 at 4:23:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I want to say something here. I waited for over two weeks and put a lot of thought into whether posting Peter’s thoughts on this matter was a good idea. I respect Peter for what he has accomplished and meant for no disrespect to be directed towards him. I just kinda figured we are all adults here, (even tho I try and not act like one), and that this was an interesting point of view. I do disagree with some of what Peter says. I guess being passionate about something makes me write stuff that comes across as venomous sometimes. I really tried to refrain from that. Sometimes I joke and people don’t realize I’m joking, and I tried to refrain from that too. To be honest, I’m joking most of the time, but not about this. I am extremely passionate about Ibogaine, and making it available to those who want it. I choose to think that what is going here is growing pains. Ibogaine will not be denied. It works for some of us. Thank God it did for me. Ibonauts UNITE.         Randy

From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen’s reply.
Date: February 12, 2005 at 4:06:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

NOTE: I did not write this.

I am posting Peter Cohen’s letter at his request.

He is on the list, and should be able to read and reply.

Patrick

From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>

Dana, thanks for responding in writing. Mostly I have not a clue what you are saying, or accusing me of, but never mind.

Let me begin to apologise for some of my wording, and the mistake I made to not connect to the real need of people to change their ways under the present social and legal circumstances around intense drug use .
In that sense my reasoning is too stiff and irrealistic, and it unnesearly blocks understanding of what I would most like  to come through of my words.

Now,  some of my assumptions:

I have never accpeted the old theory about addiction as disease, nor much else about the concept of addiction. I consider the concept of addiction as an outgrowth ( in the 18th century) of the then already used concepts of ‘possession, and being’bewitched’. Concepts that refer to the snatching of the soul, or the will, by an evil alien force. These concepts reflect our incapacity to understand particular behaviour as very ‘human’ and therefor they are ‘extra human’, alien. Drugs are  an alien force ( like the devil , or a witch), and in the alcohol litterature from the mid 18th century the model for alcohol as a soul snatcher is created.Later this model was generalised to other drugs. All these soul snatchers ( witches,drugs alcohol included), have been prohibited in the USA at some time or another since the mid 17th century.

Modern neurological theory that says addiction is  brain disease is a small permutation of the original dogma, that alien forces  can deregulate (sicken) our inner self, our core self. Neurology tries to understand now where this happens, and it says: in the brain. And neurologists make theory about this and create images ( brain scans they call them) to illustrate their ideas. In a nutshell they say that drugs will incapacitate the brain’s centers of ‘good’ decision making and then they locate the cells where this happens.( They, of course, define what ‘good’ decision making is, not I, the head of which they made the scan)

If addiction is a way of learned adaptation, we should no longer use the word addiction, but ‘ a life style in which the intense and sometimes frequent use of drugs is an adaptive tool”.

Sometimes tools become obsolete, and the explanation of why so many people leave dysfunctional adaptations is exactly that: loss of usefulness.

But some tools may also carry heavy stigma .Religeons were forbidden, sexual behaviours chosen by some were forbidden, types( patterns) of drug use are forbidden because they all conflict with general ideals about human existence. This is a sort of legitimization of prohibiting these behaviours.

I agree fully with Dana that methadone is not only a chemical compound, but much more an instrument of discipline in a world that prohibits the self chosen use of opiates in spite of the fact that some people like them, and some even need them to survive. If I choose to use opiates it is not okay, but if my doctor makes that choice for me, it is. We prohibit not so much the opiate, but the intention and symbolical context of some types of use. The doctor can give me methadone to help me live with my type of adapatation, but not the type of opiate I like better.

Methadone can help people, but only ( or mostly) at the conditions of the doctor.

And here we reach the core of what I would like to clarify: the doctor stands for society’s choice to prohibit me the self chosen use of opiates. He wants me to be either abstinent, or use his opaites in ways he prescribes.If I fail, hopla. to jail ,or at least no more assistence.

Overcoming use and reaching abstinence is society’s goal with me if I use opiates. Overcoming ‘addiction’ by means of ‘treatment’ is what is supposed to happen. The ibo people say: use ibo to overcome addiction.The whitecoats say: use my compounds or life rules to overcome.

My mistake is that I approach these things in a too  theoretical fashion. I reason: the desire to become abstinent is a solid by product of our social ways of prohibiting opiates and other drugs, and the idea of an ideal human being that lurks behind these prohibitions.

But, as some of the ibo people told me, it may not be a by product of social force alone; it may be a genuine desire ,never mind the way this desire developed in me.

Okay. That is true.

If I approach the ibo people with this Okay, could they approach me with more understanding of my problems with the self chosen use of ibo? Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has created its usefulness: prohibition. I see ibo as ‘just one of these treatments’ in a very symbolical sense.I am not talking about the pleasure of taking ibo, or its high level of interestingness, I am not refering to its  subjective functionality, but to its social symbolism.

I maintain that the illustration I used about homosexuality could clarify this. People of course have the right to not want to be gay. But if society jails gays, marginalises them, blackmails them and ultimately destroys their identity, it is not fair to  ask people to remain gay, and true to their ‘inner self’.Of course I understand their desire to ungay themselves, and if they use ibo to do that ,be my guest.But the social function of the ibo in that context is : society’s soldier that chases the gayness out of gays. And I do not accept that because of my weird idea that gays have the right to be gays, and similar, intense drug users have the right to pursue that life style.

I have used the word ibo CLAN because of the special circle in which ibo is developing its mythical status.For me it is just another ‘miracle’ compound within prohibition, and within a theoretical NIDA govererend dominance of pharmacological understanding of intense drug use, not a psychological understanding or a societal one. Its like ( not the same!) as these compounds the industry now works on to block ALL ‘addictive’ behavior or ‘craving’, to be injected  from birth on.What a money maker ,this ulimate pharmacological zombyiser.

To Sara, giving me ibo, and making me part of the interesting experience, would not change my ideas.My subjective reaction to ibo and my discussion of the social function of ibo are different levels of observation or analysis.

pc

PS Dana shouted at me at the top of his voice in the New Orleans hotel. I did not really mind. Angry people do that.

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 4:04:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston

I tend to agree with pc, as in England it is down to the bars, they set the rules as to who checks the ids, but I do not know of the law where you are, it seems extremly unfair if V has to go to court for this.  If I were you I would check it out further but I can not see that it be down to the individual bar person especailly ehen you said they have people checking ids on the door.  I hope it all turns out ok for you.

Love Donna

From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 12, 2005 at 3:24:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In my mail to Howard I wrote about a book I bought but nevr mentioned the nazi’s.You could have read that.I wonder if you too the time to read what I did write.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

You wrote:
Why did Cohen find it
necessary to compare Ibogaine with the ‘Nazi’s cure
for homosexuality'(god, that’s f*cking horrible.)?

The Nazi’s indeed had a cure for homosexuals; mostly they gassed  them to death in extermination camps ( many tens of thousands of them) together with jews and gypsies. That is why I made my remark on the 1948 book, as I did

pc

At 05:50 -0800 12-02-2005, Ms Iboga wrote:
Peter,

Below is the email that started this conversation.
About half way down you are quoted as saying such…

Julie
Note: forwarded message attached.

__________________________________


Peter D.A.Cohen
Grote Bickerstraat 57a
1013kp Amsterdam
The Netherlands
telephone +31204222616
or +31622789441(cell)

From: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 3:08:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, your girlfriend has no legal responsability for whom the
doormen let enter, not whom she serves.The owner has this
responsabilty AND has to put a check-age system in place, and in
writing inform all staff what their part in the system is.Pay no
fine, have your girlfiend be member of a Union, get a lawyer, your
girl should walk free/unfined! If the owner sacks her, there is a lot
of mony to be made out of him.
Good bar tender position in NY galore.
pc

At 08:29 -0500 12-02-2005, Preston Peet wrote:
Hi all and top of the morning to you.
As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a
dj, a cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug
deale…I mean, bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan,
known for it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused
crowd. She had to work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting
up her bar, just after 10, she saw very few customers, but did serve
a few the first halfhour behind the bar.
Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has
her ID with her.
“Yes, why?”
“Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.


Peter D.A.Cohen
Grote Bickerstraat 57a
1013kp Amsterdam
The Netherlands
telephone +31204222616
or +31622789441(cell)

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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen
Date: February 12, 2005 at 3:43:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is on the list.

He’s written a highly reasonable response to some of the issues that have been raised here.

When a dialogue follows, please try to take at least 48-72 hours, before the whole things devolves into, “I HATE YOU!  And furthermore!”

Peter is cool people.  He is taking the time to reply to various issues and possible misrepresentations; as well as acknowledging where his assumptions may not have been correct.

In other words: he has read some of the replies and is LISTENING.

I may or may not agree with everything he says.  In which case I will also reply.  You may or may not agree; but please COMMUNICATE and try not to just spew venom.  The latter won’t accomplish much.

Thanks,

Patrick

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 2:23:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It happened to another bartender apparently about 2 or 3 months ago, who has her own court date on Monday, so V will find out from her what happened in terms of a fine and if the bar pays it for her or not.
I agree, that the bar should be responsible for this, but we’ll have to wait and see what happens. Apparently no one thought to tell V that the previous one had happened, and even had they done so she still probably would have assumed, especially since it just happened fairly recently, that the security types would be much more on top of this sort of thing precisely because it had happened before.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: <slowone@hush.ai>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

I think the bar should reimburse V if she was following its policy
by not checking ID. Or maybe the bouncers who let an underage
person in should take up a collection.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 2:00:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie wonders if this could be entrapement, what happened to V.

It is entrapement, the legal kind so far as I can tell. In other words, this sort of thing is legal for cops to do.
Florida too has no entrapement laws, at least when it comes to cops busting drug dealers, taking their cocaine and turning it into crack then selling it to unsuspecting crack heads who the cops then immediately bust for possession of cocaine, as happened to me back in the 80s once.
I’m not sure the US even still has entrapement laws anywhere anymore. I could be mistaken, but I could swear we live in a police state now, not some mythical land of the free and brave people place.
;-((

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

Preston,

I thought it was the bouncers responsibility to check
IDs…It should have been them who got fined.  How
would a bartender have the time to pour tons of
drinks, AND check every single ID in the place.

Sounds like entrapment to me…

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 12:30:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think the bar should reimburse V if she was following its policy
by not checking ID. Or maybe the bouncers who let an underage
person in should take up a collection.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: [Ibogaine] eyesight problems revisited
Date: February 12, 2005 at 12:20:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How many of those who attribute eyesight problems to ibogaine are
smoking pot? When I took a break for a week, I found that I could
use weaker eyeglasses that I had stopped using for reading.

I still think that ibogaine may have its own effect on vision based
on my last experience several months ago, but now I think that pot
can also have an effect, possibly in conjunction with ibogaine.

Mechanisms that come to mind are pupil dilation, lowered pressure
in the eye, and reduction of blood flow to the optic nerve. The
mechanism could be different in both cases, and ibogaine might
potentiate a different mechanism for marijuana.. or it could all be
a coincidence.

“It borders on malpractice to give marijuana for glaucoma. While it
can reduce intraocular pressure (with huge doses of pot), it also
can constrict blood supply to the optic nerve, exacerbating vision
problems. There are far safer and better drugs.” (Pot as Medicine,
Washington Post, February 7, 1997)

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Meth and AIDS
Date: February 12, 2005 at 12:19:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston !
If it’s the first time, she will have to paid about a $ 250. fine.
We have to ask an ID to customer who look 27 years old !! This is ridiculous
!
God Bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:46 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Meth and AIDS

Jules Siegel on my DrugWar list has a question as regards this NYTimes
article:

—– Original Message —–
From: “Jules Siegel” <siegel@cafecancun.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:37 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] Meth and AIDS

So does methamphetamine use cause symptoms that are similar to AIDS?

<http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2005/02/11/news/HIV.ht
ml>
Doctors discover new HIV strain
By Marc Santora and Lawrence K. Altman The New York Times
Saturday, February 12, 2005

[Excerpts]

A previously unknown strain of HIV that is highly resistant to virtually
all known drugs and appears to lead to the rapid onset of AIDS was
detected in a man last week, New York health officials said Friday.

The virus was found in a New York City man in his mid-40s who engaged in
unprotected anal sex with other men on multiple occasions while he was
using crystal methamphetamine.


JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764 77501-Cancun Q. Roo Mexico
Cancun User’s Guide 2005 http://www.lulu.com/jules

Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists
http://www.newsroom-l.net/blog

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From: “ARON KAY” <pieman@pieman.org>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 12:19:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

cops are so fucking pathetic to waste resources on “underage stings” thanks
to assholes like gloomberg, fartaki and dumbya…no wonder the world is
getting sick
ARON KAY-http://www.pieman.org
check out the latest mp3

its by Benedict
arnold and the Traitors
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:29 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff

Hi all and top of the morning to you.
As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a dj, a
cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug deale…I mean,
bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan, known
for
it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused crowd. She had
to
work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting up her bar, just after
10, she saw very few customers, but did serve a few the first halfhour
behind the bar.
Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has her ID
with her.
“Yes, why?”
“Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.
She grabbed it and headed to the office, where she discovered two
undercover NYPD officers waiting for her.
Apparently, she served an underaged, more importantly, FAKE customer.
She doesn’t know who it was, thinking perhaps it was one young lady but
really doesn’t have a clue, not having been paying attention.
Now, the thing is, V works in a very upscale nightclub with top-notch
security, one of those places where the security force (yes, a force for
all
intents and purposes) wears tuxes and those nifty inside the ear radios.
They check IDs at the door, so she isn’t supposed to have to worry about
that sort of thing. Plus, she nor I have health insurance, making just too
much money to qualify for most public assistance were we so inclinded and
not enough to really cover much more than we already are. Yet, our taxes
are
going to things like, say, paying the NYPD to hire underage (or are they
kids who got in trouble and now work as snitches? Do the police do that
sort
of thing in real life still?) kids to go into bars and nightclubs, pose as
customers and attempt to buy alcohol, so the cops can then bust the
bartender (and the bar) for the sale and then make some money in court.
Which is what’s going to happen as near as we can tell at this early
date. One of the cops took her ID, wrote her a ticket, then handed her the
ticket while uttering the most sincere “I’m sorry” ever uttered I’m sure
(that jerk). To make it even worse, it’s not a fine that she can just pay,
it’s a ticket for a court appearance in March. So the city is going to
spend
even more of our tax money on a hearing over her ticket, then will fine
her
some few hundreds of bucks (we hope that’s the extent of this, that she
won’t have to do anything else on top of that).
To say I’m livid about this is an understatement. What in the world is
this sort of thing solving or helping or doing to better our society? What
in the world are people thinking to stoop to such petty stupidity as this?
To top it off, half an hour later V is asleep, worn out from a night
of
stressing out checking every single customers’ ID, as the management then
told the entire staff that every single customer from that point on had to
be checked before being served, something they don’t normally have to do
due
to having a door staff that is supposed to be doing it for them before the
customers even get in the door due to it being a “21 and over” nightbluc
anyway. I’m sitting in my quiet room, writing in my journal and listening
to
my walkman, doing my morning waking up ritual. I reach out and pick up my
fully loaded (I’m not out, making this all even more depression, in case
any
officers are reading this- I’M OUT NOW, and never have more than 28 grams
when I do have any pot anyway, meaning I’m not breaking NY laws due to
this,
NY, being a decrim state), brand new beautiful hand-blown glass bowl that
I
just finally broke down and bought yesterday, having broken my last one a
few weeks ago. I’ve been suffering through not having a bowl since then,
having to roll joints, or use a nasty old bong, (hard to take a bong with
me
to a dj gig), or use this neato pipe that is hidden inside a magic marker
that V’s sister gave her for Chistmas- actually a fairly decent bowl but
it’s not glass, a much nicer material to smoke from. Anyway, I reach out
and
lovingly pick up my brand new, only used twice so far bowl, lift it
towards
my lips, and then completely spaz out, loose all control of my fingers and
basically throw the bowl directly to the hard tile floor of my bathroom,
shattering the brand new, now useless and wasted bowl.
So, I’d like to ask everyone to please think so positive thoughts in
our
direction as the vibes around us seem to be jangling pretty hard and I’d
like them to please calm down a bit.
;-))
Thanks for your time and consideration and hopefully for all the good
positive vibes everyone is going to sending streaming through the ether.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 8:54:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston,

I thought it was the bouncers responsibility to check
IDs…It should have been them who got fined.  How
would a bartender have the time to pour tons of
drinks, AND check every single ID in the place.

Sounds like entrapment to me…

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 12, 2005 at 8:50:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter,

Below is the email that started this conversation.
About half way down you are quoted as saying such…

Julie
Note: forwarded message attached.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 8:04:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list, but my actions and words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter Cohen thread, so here goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in legalization circles for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it was telling that he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go on in his assigned order, which would given me a chance to refute his screed point by point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and that different drug effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit as ignorant and bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the twelvesteppers who say “ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.” Peter displays absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the U.S., methadone represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is illegal, and stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or that methadone is an exquisite instrument of social control, and that Ibogaine frees you from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so ultra-secular that he is quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion (still recovering from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of the word “Cult” to describe the ibogaine movement was particularly obnoxious, given that it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by the Bushoids.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring was so effective  in ’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own inhouse trial of Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only guarantee of a reasonable development timeline and transparency of results) that I suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it. There was possibly one half of a degree of separation between Ernie Drucker and John Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove of the HRC at the time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit leaked over to the ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove described the position of the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model, with an emphasis on market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS ibogaine) as “the potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is ibogaine.” (Which would be a major advance, when you think about it–but we also called explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts of ALL drugs.)

(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us out 10 years ago are now looking for ways to stop binge crystal meth/unsafe sex. The recent finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial cell-line derived neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior confirms that ibogaine ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of GAY CITY NEWS. But Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports the original 1994 decision, and takes the position that there is no more effective medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than wellbutrin–that if you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re talking “miracle drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic that the people currently getting enough money to FINISH testing ibogaine, and spending it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign instead, voted against ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to crystal, and ended up contracting a more more drug-resistent form of HIV…

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine? What if they’d chose a completely different menu of drugs if they could determine what was being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or Afghan warlords? We had a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then Owsley flooded the country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a problem only for the fringes of the drug scene.

So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in the hall after the forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall out. Different drugs have different effects, even though Peter replied that he never takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously. Ibogaine was developed by the druggies themselves as an act of self-determination.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to exorcism. If it really is possible to replicate the physical processes in the brain induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that it be controlled by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).

So like the Marxists, Cohen says that things have to become really terrible so that the system is overthrown–before they can become better– no matter that the suffering that is going on right at this movement is totally unnecessary. The important thing is that his position be vindicated.

I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B. Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come to New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

I dunno. The straight left (ACT UP was taken over by Workers’ World) isn’t doing as well right now as we are. Lynn Stewart was just convicted for helping blind Sheik communicate with his followers in Egypt; Deborah Mash just resumed FDA-approved trials of Ibogaine. Lemme see– Us forcing to system to legalize ANY psychedelic drug (even one as weird as ibogaine) doesn’t sound defeatist to me. Not compared to going to prison.

But then I was never big on the heroin solution anyway.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Vector Vector wrote:
I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Wrong! After he told me neurochemistry is irrelevant, and I said facts are stubborn things, I patted him on the back and said (in my best Hail Fellow Well-met voice) “Admit it, Peter, you support prohibition of Ibogaine!” And he does, because he seeks to ban it from discussion at  legalization forums, to cast this pall over it so as to hamstring any movement to legalize it in the U.S. (the onlybig country where it’s illegal, and one pushing to prohibit everywhere else, as was just done in Denmark because Indra was sending it directly into the U.S.)

Sara wrote:
Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

Actually I think he’s bad for legalization. He is, for instance, also against  the Dutch separation of marijuana and hard drugs, because he said so when I tried to ask him where Dutch gov’t fact sheets originated describing the decline of heroin use after the adoption of the current system. If you can’t even tolerate personal use amounts of grass, forget about personal use amounts of everything else. What he seems to  be for is market anarchy without the social benefit of regulation–which never will help you sell any liberalization of the drug situation to the politicians. Or as I said to Donald Grove, does that mean that wherever marijuana and hashish are present, cocaine and heroin must be allowed also? Or that you hand over control of the marijuana market to people who will use the money to feel their habits, while turning on all their customers to smack?

Howard wrote:
I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all process and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

The reason Howard never saw it was that it never happened. I think he may have actually walking down the hall with us when I was talking to Peter, so he wouldn’t have seen any yelling, because there was none.

I admit being peeved that Peter dodged any actual debate. His rap would have focused my presentation on Ibogaine since 1990, which would have shortened it at least 40%.

Steve Anker wrote:
Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate for a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be honored to be there while you go through it.

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a relapsing junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want the $4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days, not unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Nick, I am not sure I understand you.
You say

” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Please explain.

Nick is actually atypical on the list, in backing the social “encouragement” of people to quit. Cohen, on the other hand, is a utopian anarchist. Myself, I’m a marijuana bolshevik, advocating that all soft drugs scenes separate themselves from hard drugs by pushing ibogaine.

Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes cutting the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical pain people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.
I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!
ciao
pc

Why not ibogaine?

Hi Peter,

I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under the influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly. Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting the rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.

Not exactly harm reduction.

For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to access to psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively low level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to say that people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as opiates, whenever they want without regard for the highly physically addictive nature of these drugs.

In the U.S., all that is allowed is methadone, buprenorphin, and SSRI’s. No pot, no psychedelics, except peyote for Native Americans. People who want to change this are every bit as utopian as the 12 step fascists and the utopian libertarians, you understand. We just want a different outcome.

Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you make your position more clear? You have something against this substance?

About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are great for as long as needed.

Regards

Nick

His stance on Ibogaine is simple: it has always threatened to take over the legalization agenda, and to make all his favorite arguments obsolete. Why– he might actually have to read up on neurochemistry. I remember one ibo forum at the Lindesmith Center: Ethan Nadelmann literally had to be told by everyone in the room that they wanted to continue the presentation on neuro-chem when he tried to stop it because he didn’t understand it and he was getting bored. They’re all the same.

Randy wrote:
I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to. It just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize Methadone, and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not to mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions. That’s just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting around thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and don’t know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a choice. A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I looked hard, very hard. If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine then it just can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to interrupt their addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer they have to suffer needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my treatment I would have done it just for the addiction interruption aspects of Ibogaine, but man those trails were cool and the Holideck was incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of Ibogaine. I’m afraid that Steve is right.      Randy

I guess the ones who want out will just have to go on being cannon fodder in Peter’s war of ideas. Too bad real people suffer and die. But for these academics, it’s a living.

Cures not Wars has a simple three part program:

1) Turn control of all aspects of drugs policy including law enforcement over to ibogaine proponents. The other people had their chance, and they muffed it.

2) National Service (a draft) for all opponents of ibogaine and cannabis, in a kind of a cross between the peace corps and the civilian conservation corps.

3) Focus the effort on reversing global warming through water reclamation projects, replacing trees with hemp, etc. Tax every entity that had cannabis prohibition to pay for it.

Marijuana bolshevism.

Dana/cnw

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) prohibition related stuff
Date: February 12, 2005 at 8:29:21 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all and top of the morning to you.
As most of you are probably already aware, my girlfriend V is a dj, a cat lady, an actress, an artist, and a legal hard drug deale…I mean, bartender, among some of her many pursuits.
She tends bar at one of the swankier nightclubs in Manhattan, known for it’s high cover, high priced drinks, and celebrity-infused crowd. She had to work last night, going in at 9:30PM. While setting up her bar, just after 10, she saw very few customers, but did serve a few the first halfhour behind the bar.
Then the head manager walks up to her bar and asks V is she has her ID with her.
“Yes, why?”
“Grab it and come to the office.” He said before walking away.
She grabbed it and headed to the office, where she discovered two undercover NYPD officers waiting for her.
Apparently, she served an underaged, more importantly, FAKE customer. She doesn’t know who it was, thinking perhaps it was one young lady but really doesn’t have a clue, not having been paying attention.
Now, the thing is, V works in a very upscale nightclub with top-notch security, one of those places where the security force (yes, a force for all intents and purposes) wears tuxes and those nifty inside the ear radios. They check IDs at the door, so she isn’t supposed to have to worry about that sort of thing. Plus, she nor I have health insurance, making just too much money to qualify for most public assistance were we so inclinded and not enough to really cover much more than we already are. Yet, our taxes are going to things like, say, paying the NYPD to hire underage (or are they kids who got in trouble and now work as snitches? Do the police do that sort of thing in real life still?) kids to go into bars and nightclubs, pose as customers and attempt to buy alcohol, so the cops can then bust the bartender (and the bar) for the sale and then make some money in court.
Which is what’s going to happen as near as we can tell at this early date. One of the cops took her ID, wrote her a ticket, then handed her the ticket while uttering the most sincere “I’m sorry” ever uttered I’m sure (that jerk). To make it even worse, it’s not a fine that she can just pay, it’s a ticket for a court appearance in March. So the city is going to spend even more of our tax money on a hearing over her ticket, then will fine her some few hundreds of bucks (we hope that’s the extent of this, that she won’t have to do anything else on top of that).
To say I’m livid about this is an understatement. What in the world is this sort of thing solving or helping or doing to better our society? What in the world are people thinking to stoop to such petty stupidity as this?
To top it off, half an hour later V is asleep, worn out from a night of stressing out checking every single customers’ ID, as the management then told the entire staff that every single customer from that point on had to be checked before being served, something they don’t normally have to do due to having a door staff that is supposed to be doing it for them before the customers even get in the door due to it being a “21 and over” nightbluc anyway. I’m sitting in my quiet room, writing in my journal and listening to my walkman, doing my morning waking up ritual. I reach out and pick up my fully loaded (I’m not out, making this all even more depression, in case any officers are reading this- I’M OUT NOW, and never have more than 28 grams when I do have any pot anyway, meaning I’m not breaking NY laws due to this, NY, being a decrim state), brand new beautiful hand-blown glass bowl that I just finally broke down and bought yesterday, having broken my last one a few weeks ago. I’ve been suffering through not having a bowl since then, having to roll joints, or use a nasty old bong, (hard to take a bong with me to a dj gig), or use this neato pipe that is hidden inside a magic marker that V’s sister gave her for Chistmas- actually a fairly decent bowl but it’s not glass, a much nicer material to smoke from. Anyway, I reach out and lovingly pick up my brand new, only used twice so far bowl, lift it towards my lips, and then completely spaz out, loose all control of my fingers and basically throw the bowl directly to the hard tile floor of my bathroom, shattering the brand new, now useless and wasted bowl.
So, I’d like to ask everyone to please think so positive thoughts in our direction as the vibes around us seem to be jangling pretty hard and I’d like them to please calm down a bit.
;-))
Thanks for your time and consideration and hopefully for all the good positive vibes everyone is going to sending streaming through the ether.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Meth and AIDS
Date: February 12, 2005 at 2:46:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jules Siegel on my DrugWar list has a question as regards this NYTimes article:

—– Original Message —– From: “Jules Siegel” <siegel@cafecancun.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:37 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] Meth and AIDS

So does methamphetamine use cause symptoms that are similar to AIDS?

<http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2005/02/11/news/HIV.html>
Doctors discover new HIV strain
By Marc Santora and Lawrence K. Altman The New York Times
Saturday, February 12, 2005

[Excerpts]

A previously unknown strain of HIV that is highly resistant to virtually all known drugs and appears to lead to the rapid onset of AIDS was detected in a man last week, New York health officials said Friday.

The virus was found in a New York City man in his mid-40s who engaged in unprotected anal sex with other men on multiple occasions while he was using crystal methamphetamine.


JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764 77501-Cancun Q. Roo Mexico
Cancun User’s Guide 2005 http://www.lulu.com/jules

Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists
http://www.newsroom-l.net/blog

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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo
Date: February 12, 2005 at 1:37:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think ibogaine has promise for direct relief of symptoms of OCD
(obsessive/compulsive disorder). It seems to interrupt many
dysfunctional patterns beyond the cycles of substance addiction.
However I believe that dosage and regimen are very important in
treating the personality disorders, and that for some people, the
best dose may be as little as 1 mg/kg or less, weekly. I would bet
that some disorders could become worse if challenged too strongly
without appropriate human support.

Claudio Naranjo has written of ibogaine use in psychotherapy:

http://ibogaine.org/forenaranjo.html

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 10:39:41 -0800 khalimist
<khalimist@hotmail.com> wrote:
I see much written about Ibo as a treatment for alcohol and heroin

addiction
but have seen little with regards to other uses. Are there any
reports of
succesful Ibo therapy when pitted against neurotic disorders like
anorexia,
bulimia, depression, ocd, etc? Can anyone point me to literature?

km

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From: “Beatriz Brasil” <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Subutex and Suboxone
Date: February 12, 2005 at 12:29:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You scared me – for a moment I thought my son had been wrongly prescribed the combination of buprenorphine with
naloxone, an opioid antagonist, as you said.

But suboxone is the one with the antagonist (BUPRENORPHINE HYDORCHLORIDE AND NALOXONE HYDROCHLORIDE)
as per www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2002/ANS01165.html .

I had warned my son’s doctor NOT to combine the buprenorphine with the antagonist as my son has been previously on
antagonist implants and the consequences were disastrous -.

Sure it is that easy to confuse the two – for a moment (in which I called my son and paged his doctor) I no longer knew
which was which.

Beatriz

—–Original Message—–
From: pigchips [mailto:pigchips@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:58 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…

You can get pure Buprenex:
Suboxone (buprenorphine hydrochloride) is an opiate currently being marketed in the United States for the treatment of opiate addiction.  Similar to opiates such as Methadone, Suboxone are designed as a replacement for injected and snorted opiates such as heroin.  Buprenorphine, a derivative of thebaine, provides pain relief and also produces a narcotic high.
Then there’s Subutex which is a combination of buprenorphine with naloxone, an opiate antagonist, in order to prevent any high or euphoric feeling.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…

Something caught my eye in this report. They mention the average dose as being around 48 mgs. or so for Methadone, and 9mg.s for bup. Just what dose is average? Doesn’t it depend on the individual? I know for me, my average dose was as much as I could get, but I was normally at 60 mgs. the last time, and it seemed to hold me if I was prudent. I guess what I’m trying to ask is just where does the dose end? I know at one time in the early 90’s I could take 300 mgs. and go to work, yet 80 mgs. held me. Where does the therapeutic dose end and the con begin? As for bup. maybe I’m just a junkie at heart but I wish they would leave out the naltrexone. It makes me cringe to think that an addict has to take that shit.    Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Allison/Ibogaine and Hep C
Date: February 11, 2005 at 10:19:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Allison, I’ve been meaning to tell you something that the Doc.’s all told me when I went through the Interferon treatment, all 3 of them, SMOKE HERB, as much as you need!!! They would never admit that they told me that, but they did. Marinol doesn’t work near as well. I know how you feel, I felt real bad at the end too. Hell, I felt bad the whole time, it was just worse at the end. I have to admit that being on Methadone helped too, as I didn’t have the energy to be able to keep my addiction at bay any other way. If I had the information then that I have now, I would have done the Ibogaine first, and then checked my blood work to see if I still needed to do the Interferon blues. Trip and learn, or live and learn, or something like that. I won’t shut up ’till we have that information about Ibogaine and Hep C.     Randy

From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] withdrawals from bup
Date: February 11, 2005 at 10:13:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Ron, sorry Ive been so slow in writing a response about bup.I only went 3 days off it & decided to go back to short acting & do ibogaine again.I must be a fast metabolizer because I was sick on the second day & thats not supposed to happen,but thermometers arent psychosomatic,had a fever and all the rest, so Im probably not the best person to use as a role model.There are many who attest to very mild w/d on bup, I wish you the best.Im due to do a session in one week.Everything is set up,Im kinda scared & kinda excited, getting my intention straight about what I would like to explore, also preparing myself to surrender,if that makes any fucking sense!I’ll keep in touch with yall & let you know how its going, how special & how un unique I am, just want to be free again.love shell

Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net> wrote:
can someone please tell me what to expect?  taper and jump?
tough?  thanks and wishing all a peaceful path, ron

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Vibe Rating Strings & Gaps
Date: February 11, 2005 at 8:54:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://answers.com/%22god%20of%20gaps%22

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

when that preTty blue balL with the looping
arrows wrapped
around it POPS OUT and starts bouncing sideways all
over your dock,
doin’ it’s little OpenGL & Quartz Extreme dance …
it’s not a
flashback.  THE COMPUTER wants attention.

CLICK IT.

It’ll make you feel happy inside.

Dr. Kroupa

Department of Bioassays / University of Little Cuba

&#22823;&#28151;&#20081;, &#28961;&#31209;&#24207;

&#8238;&#1514;&#1493;&#1492;&#1493; &#1493;&#1489;&#1493;&#1492;

___________________________________________________________
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Sorry Dana Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 11, 2005 at 6:23:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If this is what Dr. Cohen goes around saying about
ibogaine then for the first time ever, I agree with
Dana Beal 🙂

It had to happen one day 😉

Carla B

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern
Standard Time,
cohen.cedro@uva.nl writes:       Carla, Peter sent
me this. I thought you should see it. I
thought everyone should it.                  Randy
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans
was that using ibo is not
much else than using methadone or some other drug or
treatment, to excorcise
these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some
people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for
self determination in the
choice of drug we like, and the way we use it (
given we do not harm others
more than the normal amount). Its the same fight
that started in the Enlightment
for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in
the times of  Calvin and
still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th
century and now in e.g.
Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as
these weird addiction
doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a
1948 book about the cure of
homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF
YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure
was to inhale a mixture
of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you
imagine how short ago maxi
primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or
whatever in any way we
like for any duration, and we should not be forced
into abstinence by a
cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not
discuss here has created intense drug users into
lepers, nuking their pride and
self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we
miserable creatures need
treatment, only please let US choose the miracle
treatment we attribute healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use
drugs as long as we want
in the amount and system we want ,against a State
that maintains intense drug
users as witches to be chased and burned. And for
which the ibo clan now
makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have
the right to seek any
kind of assistence if we need help to change our
ways,just as we seek assistence
in any way if we somehow can not divorce this
husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is
not prohibited, as it was
in christian Europe well into the 20th century in
many countries for most (the
rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat.
As if they say lets not
burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an
(alternative) clay oven. I also
said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of
prohibition because their theme is getting rid of
these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere
folk, likeable and smart.
My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on
their defeatist voodoo
ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear
enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt
representing my New Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get.
Thanx a lot for getting
back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a
large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch,
english and other
languages)

__________________________________________________
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] A cult?
Date: February 11, 2005 at 6:06:24 PM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A cult….To be or not to be
Are you a good cult or a bad cult?
Do we have to be a cult? How about a club with a secret handshake? No that won’t work…to many rules.  I know, how about a list where pretty much the only thing most people have in common is a curiosity(interest) in ibogaine or are pre or post and looking for info and a place where they can check out some issues they have or thoughts or get practical info.  No one smacks your hand with a ruler when you go off topic. People come and go with no regular contact at all.  No rules.  It actually sounds like the anticult.
I’m thinking anytime anyone has good or amazing results with anything there is going to be some kind of preoccupation with it and wanting to pass it on to others.
Kind of like when a kid gets a new toy, lets say an educational toy and the parents and child are excited about how productive the toy is in regards to the childs development they are going to tell their friends and so on and so on.  Or when you find the best pizza place ever!! (This is still fictional to me, sadly).
I could go on and on but it’s like doing counterpoint to an imaginery point as you never know in what context or perception the original remark was made.  So I shall refrain for now.  I don’t want to rant and rave and then do a Rosanne Rosanna Danna and say,  “never mind.”
Martee
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult- Steven Peter Cohen
Date: February 11, 2005 at 6:02:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie you and Steven said what my thoughts are 🙂

I think Dr. Cohen does a lot of good and have trouble
with people bashing him when he works so hard for
decriminalization and against the war on drugs.

If what Dana posted are his views on ibogaine, then I
don’t have any idea what he’s talking about or thinks
he’s talking about anymore and I read Randy’s reprint
of the letter Peter Cohen wrote where he’s comparing
ibogaine to “cures for homosexuality” and there he’s
being obnoxious and lost me totally.

I agree with a lot of what Peter Cohen says but if
what Dana wrote and Randy reprinted are accurate and
represent Dr. Cohen’s view of ibogaine, then he is
very ignorant.

The difference is when someone says crazy and ignorant
things to this list or the messianic personalities
start up 😉 there isn’t anyone who is really
listening to them. With Dr. Cohen it’s different.

Why is he sooooooo down on ibogaine??? That bit with
the Nazis is over the top. Is anyone saying that
people should have to take ibogaine?

I tried to stop too and never could. What about people
who want to stop using drugs and can’t? I couldn’t do
it. After ibogaine I did it 🙂

Carla B

— Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Steven,

I agree- NA/AA doesn’t work for me either. I get way
more from this list than I ever could sitting in a
dank church basement. What has helped me a lot is
exercise, keeping busy, and social interaction with
family and friends.

My idea of aftercare is learning a new physical
skill(dance, yoga, martial arts, etc.), chatting on
this list, and having a weekly communal dinner party
with people I enjoy being around.

I was in no way trying to discredit the work of any
of
the scientists you mention- they serve a valuable
role
as the record keepers of data, the measurers of
results, the publishers of findings; they are the
bio-nauts advancing the knowledge of the physical
nature of addiction.

Even some of Dr. Cohen’s work/views have merit; I
just
find some of his ideas a little angering, especially
seeing as though Ibogaine has helped so many people,
myself included.  Almost 4 months of clean time
behind
me- the longest in four years.  Why did Cohen find
it
necessary to compare Ibogaine with the ‘Nazi’s cure
for homosexuality'(god, that’s f*cking horrible.)?
That just seems like an under-the-belt type of shot.

As an ‘addictions specialist’, he is pretty quick to
dismiss the neurochemical side of dependence.  I’m
not
saying it’s the entire explanation for addiction,
but
it certainly plays a role.

🙂   Julie

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult- Steven
Date: February 11, 2005 at 5:40:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Steven,

I agree- NA/AA doesn’t work for me either. I get way
more from this list than I ever could sitting in a
dank church basement. What has helped me a lot is
exercise, keeping busy, and social interaction with
family and friends.

My idea of aftercare is learning a new physical
skill(dance, yoga, martial arts, etc.), chatting on
this list, and having a weekly communal dinner party
with people I enjoy being around.

I was in no way trying to discredit the work of any of
the scientists you mention- they serve a valuable role
as the record keepers of data, the measurers of
results, the publishers of findings; they are the
bio-nauts advancing the knowledge of the physical
nature of addiction.

Even some of Dr. Cohen’s work/views have merit; I just
find some of his ideas a little angering, especially
seeing as though Ibogaine has helped so many people,
myself included.  Almost 4 months of clean time behind
me- the longest in four years.  Why did Cohen find it
necessary to compare Ibogaine with the ‘Nazi’s cure
for homosexuality'(god, that’s f*cking horrible.)?
That just seems like an under-the-belt type of shot.

As an ‘addictions specialist’, he is pretty quick to
dismiss the neurochemical side of dependence.  I’m not
saying it’s the entire explanation for addiction, but
it certainly plays a role.

🙂   Julie

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 11, 2005 at 4:49:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know about everyone else, but for me I didn’t want external stimuli like music interrupting what was going on in my head.<

I started with music on, but after 2 cds, when V came in to ask if I wanted her to put on something else, I said no thank you.
Same the second time, I started with music on, but soon let it end without putting on something else.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting

I don’t know about everyone else, but for me I didn’t want external stimuli like music interrupting what was going on in my head. I had music in my head the whole time. At one point I saw what I perceived as Bwiti women dancing to the Rumba I had going on in between my ears. I think if I had had music on, I would have missed that. I guess it depends on the individual. After the trip dies down it might be good to have jungle sounds, or waterfall sounds and the like going. After I had been on the Holideck my sense of smell was very sensitive too. My session lasted more than 2 days because of the methadone so maybe I was just burnt out. I wouldn’t have changed a thing even if I could, except for the nausea.    Randy

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From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 4:44:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie,

To say only an addict can help with or understand addiction is also like saying only a Dr. or scientist who has cancer can study cancer. Yes, it helps to have the empathy of addiction, but are there not people in your life or family who are not addicts who help you with keeping clean? That only an addict can help is one of those AA beliefs. Is it true? As Ozzy says about AA “Why would I want to only hang with cripples for help if I was a cripple?”

Not being an addict can give a scientist some perspective and distance. I myself wouldn’t pay an addiction specialist $300 an hour either. I think the work of Dr.’s Glick, Mash, Peele are all helpful to the study of addiction and should not be discounted because they are not addicts. Help can come from all corners, not just addicts. Sure, Dr. Cohen is a blathering fool for saying iboga is the same as methadone, but his comments on legalization are helpful. Why not have a combination of harm-reduction, de-criminalization and more and better treatment options? Help from non-addicts as well as addicts? Fine, if it is a disease, don’t arrest me and make me pray to god to get better. Options and choice are lovely things. Sure, we like iboga better than methadone; I have friends who were really helped by methadone.

Best,
Steve.

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:32:45 -0800 (PST)

Being an ‘addiction specialist’, yet having no prior
firsthand experience with chemical dependency is kinda
like trying to write a paper about the sensation of
skydiving without ever having jumped- it’s gonna be
dry, detached and only partially-informed, and
strongly influenced by personal convictions and biases
rather than first-hand knowledge and experience.

I have more respect for the Chinese man who got
himself addicted to opium and then developed Heantos
detox than I do for any pontificating egg-head who
prattles on about drug addiction, yet remains
blissfully aware of the physical/psychological
ramifications of such.  Addictions specialist?  More
like a tourist.

Maybe it’s just me, but I would rather talk about
addiction or schedule a healing session with Martee,
Randy, Jason, and anyone else on this list as opposed
to one with a $300/hr tourist.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 3:41:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

that shoulda been blissfully unaware

‘doh’

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Live Audio Web Chat With Sasha and Ann Shulgin
Date: February 11, 2005 at 3:33:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m not sure Lee, but you can check out this page here for more details.

When: Tuesday, February 22, 2005
3 PM PST / 6 PM EST
Where: http://www.drugpolicy.org/events/shulginchat

Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Live Audio Web Chat With Sasha and Ann Shulgin

Is it possible to actually listen to a recording as I dont see any obvious link to the actual recording. The link goes to the page details???? Lee

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: Ethan Nadelmann, DPAlliance
[mailto:alerts@actioncenter.drugpolicy.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:03 AM
To: blackhd@optonline.net
Subject: Live Audio Web Chat With Sasha and Ann Shulgin

February 10, 2005manage my subscription | text version

Please Join Me for a Web Chat with Psychedelics Researchers Dr. Sasha
Shulgin and Ann Shulgin

Dear Kevin,
I am pleased to invite you to a live audio web chat on Tuesday, February 22
at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST with myself, Dr. Sasha Shulgin, the noted psychedelic
chemist and pharmacologist, and his wife Ann Shulgin, the beloved writer and
therapist. Dr. Shulgin, a former Dow research chemist, is well known for his
creation and discovery of new psychoactive chemicals and for his promotion
in the late 1970s and early 1980s of the ! use of MDMA in psychotherapy. Sasha
and Ann Shulgin together authored and published the books PIHKAL: A Chemical
Love Story and TIHKAL: The Continuation, detailing the synthesis of and
their personal experience with hundreds of psychedelics.
The Shulgins will be online to address your questions on a range of topics
from the “war on drugs” to the therapeutic use of MDMA. Please email
questions@drugpolicy.org before February 22 to submit questions, and don’t
forget to bookmark the chat address!
When: Tuesday, February 22, 2005
3 PM PST / 6 PM EST
Where: http://www.drugpolicy.org/events/shulginchat
Read on for further information about the Shulgins and myself:
Sasha Shulgin studied Chemistry at Harvard University and Biochemistry and
Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco. He has authored
over 200 research papers published in peer reviewed scientific journals,
been awarded some 20 patents and written four books.! Sasha has been studying
the chemistry and effects of psychedelics for over 30 years. He was recently
featured in the New York Times Magazine, which described him “not as a
scientist in the modern sense but as a different type — what Aldous Huxley,
the novelist turned psychedelic philosopher, once described as a ‘naturalist
of the mind.'”
Ann Shulgin is a therapist who conducted psychedelic therapy before 1985,
when MDMA was effectively made illegal when it was reclassified as a
Schedule I drug. Ann is a researcher and spokesperson for the beneficial use
of psychedelics, including MDMA, in a therapeutic setting. The Shulgins
travel and speak extensively on the topic of psychedelics.
I am the founder and executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, the
leading organization in the United States promoting alternatives to the “war
on drugs.” I’ve spent many wonderful hours with Sasha and Ann over the
years. It will be a real pl! easure to have you join our conversation.
To submit a question now, please use the following email address:
questions@drugpolicy.org .
I encourage you to pass along word about the chat to other people you know
who might be interested, and look forward to seeing you online on the 22nd!
Sincerely,

To Contact or Make a Donation by Mail to the Drug Policy Alliance:
Drug Policy Alliance
70 West 36th Street, 16th Floor
New York, NY 10018

Get a PDF copy of the Donation Form. For subscription problems please
contact Jeanette Irwin, Director, Internet Communications
jirwin@drugpolicy.org, 202.216.0035

DrugPolicy.org | Take Action | Donate | Privacy Policy

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 3:32:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Being an ‘addiction specialist’, yet having no prior
firsthand experience with chemical dependency is kinda
like trying to write a paper about the sensation of
skydiving without ever having jumped- it’s gonna be
dry, detached and only partially-informed, and
strongly influenced by personal convictions and biases
rather than first-hand knowledge and experience.

I have more respect for the Chinese man who got
himself addicted to opium and then developed Heantos
detox than I do for any pontificating egg-head who
prattles on about drug addiction, yet remains
blissfully aware of the physical/psychological
ramifications of such.  Addictions specialist?  More
like a tourist.

Maybe it’s just me, but I would rather talk about
addiction or schedule a healing session with Martee,
Randy, Jason, and anyone else on this list as opposed
to one with a $300/hr tourist.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 2:43:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I noticed that remark about ibogaine being the same as methedone or any other treatment and the “cult” comment.  My first thought was that someone who did Ibogaine and CHOSE to remain sober from everything got his ear and turned him off, possibly.  For someone trying to promote his stance on all drugs it probably sounded like blasphemy!
If he is at the conference and would like to have a short chat with someone who was on methedone and heroin and cocaine for over 20 years and tried to stop hundereds of times and only had success with ibogaine, I would be willing.  I also at this moment in time am choosing to remain sober of everything but quite possibly for different reasons than others.  As I was reflecting this week I realized that even though I had 10 heroin and methedone free years inbetween this run and my original teenage addiction, my last sober year was age 11 or 12.  It was like if  I take this what do you get?  And this?  And this?   So now I’m just curious if I don’t take anything for a  while, what do I get?  I think the human brain and body is quite possibly capable of some amazing things and I’m willing to stay sober long enough to check it out.  It’s like waiting to score for a really long time.  I’m not adopting anyones dogma or belief of what is right or wrong and not judging others who feel harm reduction or occasional or constant use is right for them.  It’s not my place to judge.
I don’t think my case is so different or special for most who did Ibogaine and all the potential Ibogaine success stories that could be.
Today is six months for me.   In a way it feels like years and in a way it feels like yesterday.
Hey Julie,  you forgot the leg cramps, and spasms, the tacky skin, the hot and cold chills running up and down your back, the nauseau, the ultra sensitivity to smells, the anxiety, the panic and my favorite the feeling like you have 100 pounds of weight on you as you try to move and every second feeling like an hour.     See,  seems like yesterday!
Sincerely,
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult

Carla,

Sorry if this is redundant, but this is the email that
set off this discussion.

J.
— Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list,
but my actions and
words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter
Cohen thread, so here
goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in
legalization circles
for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it
was telling that
he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go
on in his assigned
order, which would given me a chance to refute his
screed point by
point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
> …my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was
that using ibo is
> not much else than using methadone or some other
drug or treatment, to
> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and
use-patterns some people seem
> to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and
that different drug
effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit
as ignorant and
bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the
twelvesteppers who say
“ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.”
Peter displays
absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the
U.S., methadone
represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is
illegal, and
stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or
that methadone is
an exquisite instrument of social control, and that
Ibogaine frees you
from that control.

> I think that our main fight should be to fight for
self determination
> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use
it ( given we do not
> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the
same fight that
> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon
( quite unthinkable
> even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and
ultra dangerous
> idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so
ultra-secular that he is
quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion
(still recovering
from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of
the word “Cult” to
describe the ibogaine movement was particularly
obnoxious, given that
it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by
the Bushoids.

> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league
as these weird
> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today
I bought a 1948
> book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a
group of people who
> said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED)
HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring
was so effective  in
’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own
inhouse trial of
Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only
guarantee of a
reasonable development timeline and transparency of
results) that I
suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it.
There was possibly
one half of a degree of separation between Ernie
Drucker and John
Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove
of the HRC at the
time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit
leaked over to the
ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove
described the position of
the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model,
with an emphasis on
market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS
ibogaine) as “the
potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is
ibogaine.” (Which
would be a major advance, when you think about
it–but we also called
explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts
of ALL drugs.)

> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of
cure was to inhale a
> mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can
you imagine how
> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about
homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us
out 10 years ago are
now looking for ways to stop binge crystal
meth/unsafe sex. The recent
finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial
cell-line derived
neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior
confirms that ibogaine
ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of
GAY CITY NEWS. But
Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports
the original 1994
decision, and takes the position that there is no
more effective
medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than
wellbutrin–that if
you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re
talking “miracle
drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic
that the people
currently getting enough money to FINISH testing
ibogaine, and spending
it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign
instead, voted against
ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to
crystal, and ended up
contracting a more more drug-resistent form of
HIV…

> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine
or whatever in any
> way we like for any duration, and we should not be
forced into
> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put
upon us by a culture
> that for some reason I do not discuss here has
created intense drug
> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self
esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine?
What if they’d chose
a completely different menu of drugs if they could
determine what was
being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or
Afghan warlords? We had
a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then
Owsley flooded the
country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a
problem only for the
fringes of the drug scene.

> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we
miserable creatures need
> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle
treatment we
> attribute healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in
the hall after the
forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall
out. Different
drugs have different effects, even though Peter
replied that he never
takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously.
Ibogaine was developed
by the druggies themselves as an act of
self-determination.

> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to
use drugs as long as
> we want in the amount and system we want ,against
a State that
> maintains intense drug users as witches to be
chased and burned. And
> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine
available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to
exorcism. If it
really is possible to replicate the physical
processes in the brain
induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that
it be controlled
by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

> Once we have this right, we will of course also
have the right to seek
> any kind of assistence if we need help to change
our ways,just as we
> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not
divorce
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________
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Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] withdrawals from bup
Date: February 11, 2005 at 2:19:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ron
When I did the Bup I tapered down to half a 0.02 and then a qaurter of of 0.02 tablet and withdrawals were not really bad but i did feel bad for about a week or so afterwards really lethargic and lifeless and had trouble sleeping, I was really upset because I was not expecting to withdraw from it at all.  Im starting the bup again tomorro and the only thing I will do differently is taper down quickly.  I hope this helps and you might not feel as bad as I did.

Love Donna

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: OT Brown Shoes
Date: February 11, 2005 at 2:11:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brown shoes don’t make it, quit school why fake it? Tv dinner by the pool, would your brother ball me, not another day of school        Frank Zappa

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 1:39:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brown shoes don’t make it….
—– Original Message —–
From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a relapsing
junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want the $4,000
operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days, not unless
you
want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

Nah, I don’t want to pay for any plane fares, Dana. It’s just fun to give
you shit.  I just can’t help myself. Those darn relapsing junkies… sorry
that it always goes that way.

What, the man who knows iboga to be the holy Eucharist, the man who wrote
the book, the man who spread the word of ibogaine (according to you) can’t
hustle some up? In all these years there has never been an opportunity?
Strange. I really can’t think of a better place than surrounded by the art
of Alex Grey. Unless you have tidied up your house a bit, it’s better
there,
no? Though your cats could be good company.

Perhaps a better title for your book would be “Ibogaine: My lust for
glory.”

As Sarah wrote about Peter “he had no understanding of how Iboga works
because he can’t know until he will try it,” the same could be said for
you.
I find it amusing the two of you bickering and neither has tried it. You
would be in a better position to give sage advice if you have taken the
plunge. Why not just tell me to fuck off and say you don’t want to try it?
A
scientist needs not have taken a medicine to know it works. If it is
science, not a cult, perhaps stop sounding so cult-like.  Mind you I would
never tell anyone they have to take ibogaine as it can be a very harsh
experience. You have been saying for years that you are going to do it any
day now, that’s all. Most people who haven’t taken it aren’t so vocal
about
it either.

Awolowo Johnson is a Bwiti Nganga? Really? He would make that claim? Has
he
ever been to Gabon? Who initiated him? Which branch? How long did he study
for? Does Sara claim to teach Ngangas? He may be an excellent guide for
you
in anycase. Good man, just didn’t know he was a Nganga.

Another question that’s been burning a hole in my head: How did Jesus get
his hands on iboga? How did he get it in the wine? The Romans had trade
routes to Gabon? Iboga grew in the Holy land? Jesus could fly faster than
a
speeding bullet? It’s just that you say it’s “Implicit.” Curious, that’s
all.

Good luck with the conference and may the wind be at your back. Sorry I
can’t make it. Unless of course…

Best,
Steve.

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From: “FakePlacebo” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] What is science / sceintific method?
Date: February 11, 2005 at 12:59:52 PM EST
To: “Summary” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey List,

Is there any one who can tell me that what is the science; what are the differencies between scientific kind information then the other kinds.

19th century phisopohers defined science (!) and scientific methods; those kind of scientific method same as legends.

Do you think astrology is kind of science? If it is not why?

Best Regards
FakePlacebo

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 1:10:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla,

Sorry if this is redundant, but this is the email that
set off this discussion.

J.
— Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list,
but my actions and
words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter
Cohen thread, so here
goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in
legalization circles
for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it
was telling that
he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go
on in his assigned
order, which would given me a chance to refute his
screed point by
point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was
that using ibo is
not much else than using methadone or some other
drug or treatment, to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and
use-patterns some people seem
to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and
that different drug
effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit
as ignorant and
bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the
twelvesteppers who say
“ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.”
Peter displays
absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the
U.S., methadone
represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is
illegal, and
stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or
that methadone is
an exquisite instrument of social control, and that
Ibogaine frees you
from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for
self determination
in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use
it ( given we do not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the
same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon
( quite unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and
ultra dangerous
idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so
ultra-secular that he is
quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion
(still recovering
from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of
the word “Cult” to
describe the ibogaine movement was particularly
obnoxious, given that
it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by
the Bushoids.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league
as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today
I bought a 1948
book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a
group of people who
said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED)
HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring
was so effective  in
’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own
inhouse trial of
Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only
guarantee of a
reasonable development timeline and transparency of
results) that I
suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it.
There was possibly
one half of a degree of separation between Ernie
Drucker and John
Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove
of the HRC at the
time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit
leaked over to the
ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove
described the position of
the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model,
with an emphasis on
market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS
ibogaine) as “the
potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is
ibogaine.” (Which
would be a major advance, when you think about
it–but we also called
explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts
of ALL drugs.)

(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of
cure was to inhale a
mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can
you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about
homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us
out 10 years ago are
now looking for ways to stop binge crystal
meth/unsafe sex. The recent
finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial
cell-line derived
neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior
confirms that ibogaine
ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of
GAY CITY NEWS. But
Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports
the original 1994
decision, and takes the position that there is no
more effective
medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than
wellbutrin–that if
you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re
talking “miracle
drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic
that the people
currently getting enough money to FINISH testing
ibogaine, and spending
it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign
instead, voted against
ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to
crystal, and ended up
contracting a more more drug-resistent form of
HIV…

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine
or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be
forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put
upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has
created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self
esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine?
What if they’d chose
a completely different menu of drugs if they could
determine what was
being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or
Afghan warlords? We had
a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then
Owsley flooded the
country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a
problem only for the
fringes of the drug scene.

So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we
miserable creatures need
treatment, only please let US choose the miracle
treatment we
attribute healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in
the hall after the
forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall
out. Different
drugs have different effects, even though Peter
replied that he never
takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously.
Ibogaine was developed
by the druggies themselves as an act of
self-determination.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to
use drugs as long as
we want in the amount and system we want ,against
a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be
chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine
available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to
exorcism. If it
really is possible to replicate the physical
processes in the brain
induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that
it be controlled
by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

Once we have this right, we will of course also
have the right to seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change
our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not
divorce
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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix,and docs
Date: February 11, 2005 at 12:54:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks.  There are a few out there.  I no longer spew venom and whine.  Just listen. Ron
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts

Ron,
Thats very beautiful 🙂
Lee

Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net> wrote:
To the Doc in the trenches: God bless you. There are a few like you on the
list and in the States, but far too few. In my 50 something yrs., the
predominate thinking in the medical community has been–they’ve got to
really hurt before we heal them. Little do they know, those as myself have
been suffering for years, and getting high is but a transient state that
one such as I can only rationalize as being worth the effort it took to get
there. I thank those far too few I have fortuitously bumped into for having
the courage to think outside that box that confines their brethren to the
established detox and treatment protocols for all drugs that I have
seemingly sought out and found over the years while I have struggled to find
comfort in this body I inhabit as I stumble through life. Wishing all a
peaceful path, Ron.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet”
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:19 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we
can do for addicts

> From the article below:
>
>>It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts
>>could be
> induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway
> signs
> erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It isn’t
> like
> that.<
>
> I wish it were just the “US view” I had to worry about.
> But that said, go Ottawa!
>
> Peace and love,
> Preston Peet
>
> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> mistaken for madness”
> Richard Davenport-Hines
>
> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
> Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
> Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
> Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
> Cont. High Times mag/.com
> Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> Columnist New York Waste
> Etc.
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Tim Meehan”
> To: ;
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:58 PM
> Subject: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for
> addicts
>
>
>> Source: Globe and Mail (Canada)
>> Contact: letters@globeandmail.ca
>> Website: http://www.globeandmail.ca/
>> Forum: http://forums.theglobeandmail.com/
>> Copyright: 2005, The Globe and Mail Company
>> Pubdate: February 9, 2005
>> Author: Dr. Gabor Maté
>>
>> It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts
>>
>> The official U.S. response to the free heroin trial about to begin in
>> Vancouver
>> is predictably negative. A spokesman for John Walters, director of the
>> White
>> House Office of National Drug Control Policy, calls it “an inhumane
>> medical
>> experiment.”
>>
>> “I would bet any amount of money the U.S. has exerted extreme pressure on
>> Canada
>> to abort this trial,” Alex Wodak, a prominent Australian addictions
>> researcher,
>> has said. He should know: U.S. opposition helped to abort a heroin trial
>> in his
>> country. It is to Ottawa’s credit that Canada has resisted similar
>> pressure from
>> the Bush administration, whose addictions policies owe more to narrow
>> moralism
>> than to science, compassion or insight.
>>
>> And Canada must withstand more U.S. displeasure if the results of the
>> Vancouver
>> experiment points to our introducing heroin by prescription as part of
>> our
>> addictions treatment armamentarium.
>>
>> The Vancouver trial, known as the NAOMI project (North American Opiate
>> Medications Initiative), will compare the risks and benefits of heroin
>> with
>> those of the synthetic opiate methadone. Similar studies in Switzerland
>> and the
>> Netherlands showed reduced criminal activity, increased employability, a
>> better
>> likelihood of remaining in treatment — and, in some cases, of quitting
>> narcotic
>> use altogether.
>>
>> I’m a physician working with an addict population in Vancouver’s Downtown
>> Eastside, just half a block from the NAOMI site. I don’t expect glowing
>> outcomes
>> in terms of addicts becoming employable or abstinent. Most of the clients
>> in our
>> area are too demoralized, too dependent on other drugs such as cocaine
>> and,
>> above all, too lacking in resources to make such radical changes. What is
>> realistic is to look forward to less crime, better health measures such
>> as
>> reduced hospitalization rates, and closer compliance with treatment. Even
>> such
>> modest goals, if achieved, would be a vast improvement in the lot of many
>> hard-core drug addicts.
>>
>> It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts
>> could be
>> induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway
>> signs
>> erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It
>> isn’t like
>> that. The men and women I work with have had every possible negative
>> consequence
>> visited on them. They’ve lost their jobs, their homes, their spouses,
>> their
>> children and their teeth; they’ve been jailed and beaten; they’ve
>> suffered HIV
>> infection and hepatitis and infections of the heart valves and multiple
>> pneumonias and abscesses and sores of every sort. They will not, until
>> something
>> spontaneously transforms their perspective on life, abandon their
>> compulsion to
>> use drugs. The question is only this: How shall we, as a society, respond
>> to
>> their predicament? With unenforceable laws? With moral preaching? With
>> medical
>> practices that don’t embrace the full range of options?
>>
>> Abstinence is a realistic goal for some drug addicts, but, among the
>> downtown
>> hard core, only an infinitesimal few. Rehabilitation offers hope for many
>> more,
>> but, among my patients, that’s still only a minority. In part, that is
>> due to
>> their being mired in addictive cycles and, in part, due to the sheer lack
>> of
>> adequate facilities, halfway homes and well-trained staff. This society
>> lacks
>> the political vision and will to establish and fund the wide-ranging,
>> gradual,
>> step-wise programs most addicts need to escape their habits.
>>
>> What remains is the harm-reduction model. It’s designed not to change
>> anyone but
>> to reduce the noxious effects of abusive childhoods, personal
>> dysfunction,
>> irrational drug laws, social neglect and a lifetime of bad choices. For
>> some,
>> only the provision of prescribed heroin can break the cycle of crime and
>> life in
>> the streets.
>>
>> This week, I visited one of my patients, hospitalized with abscesses
>> throughout
>> his body and bacterial invasion of his bloodstream. This man once lay
>> down on a
>> railway track, in a drug haze, and woke with a shattered hip and an
>> amputated
>> arm. I asked him why all this wasn’t enough to make him give up drugs. “I
>> spend
>> my whole day,” he said, “begging and scrimping and lying for 40 bucks to
>> get a
>> hit. And that gives me relief from pain for maybe five or 10 minutes and
>> it
>> gives me a freedom I can’t describe. And that five minutes is worth it.”
>> I
>> debated with him the merits of such “freedom.” But as a doctor, I can try
>> to
>> reduce his suffering. That, regardless of what winds blow from
>> Washington, is
>> what the NAOMI project is about.
>>
>> Gabor Maté, a Vancouver physician, is working on his next book, I Need A
>> Fix:
>> Life in a Culture of Addiction.
>>
>> <]=———————————————————————–=[>
>> [ Moderated by: Preston Peet | .drugwar.com ]
>> | -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=- |
>> | To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com |
>> [ DrugWar List in Digest Format:
>> war-digest-subscribe@mindvox.com ]
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 12:50:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a relapsing junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want the $4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days, not unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

Nah, I don’t want to pay for any plane fares, Dana. It’s just fun to give you shit.  I just can’t help myself. Those darn relapsing junkies… sorry that it always goes that way.

What, the man who knows iboga to be the holy Eucharist, the man who wrote the book, the man who spread the word of ibogaine (according to you) can’t hustle some up? In all these years there has never been an opportunity? Strange. I really can’t think of a better place than surrounded by the art of Alex Grey. Unless you have tidied up your house a bit, it’s better there, no? Though your cats could be good company.

Perhaps a better title for your book would be “Ibogaine: My lust for glory.”

As Sarah wrote about Peter “he had no understanding of how Iboga works because he can’t know until he will try it,” the same could be said for you. I find it amusing the two of you bickering and neither has tried it. You would be in a better position to give sage advice if you have taken the plunge. Why not just tell me to fuck off and say you don’t want to try it? A scientist needs not have taken a medicine to know it works. If it is science, not a cult, perhaps stop sounding so cult-like.  Mind you I would never tell anyone they have to take ibogaine as it can be a very harsh experience. You have been saying for years that you are going to do it any day now, that’s all. Most people who haven’t taken it aren’t so vocal about it either.

Awolowo Johnson is a Bwiti Nganga? Really? He would make that claim? Has he ever been to Gabon? Who initiated him? Which branch? How long did he study for? Does Sara claim to teach Ngangas? He may be an excellent guide for you in anycase. Good man, just didn’t know he was a Nganga.

Another question that’s been burning a hole in my head: How did Jesus get his hands on iboga? How did he get it in the wine? The Romans had trade routes to Gabon? Iboga grew in the Holy land? Jesus could fly faster than a speeding bullet? It’s just that you say it’s “Implicit.” Curious, that’s all.

Good luck with the conference and may the wind be at your back. Sorry I can’t make it. Unless of course…

Best,
Steve.

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 12:30:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@phantom.com]
Sent: 11 February 2005 01:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Subject: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list, but my actions and words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter Cohen thread, so here goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted me in legalization circles for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it was telling that he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go on in his assigned order, which would given me a chance to refute his screed point by point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and that different drug effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit as ignorant and bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the twelvesteppers who say “ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.” Peter displays absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the U.S., methadone represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is illegal, and stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or that methadone is an exquisite instrument of social control, and that Ibogaine frees you from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Hey Dana,

I agree with what you are saying above. From what I gathered from forwarded emails, the conference report, and limited personal communications, Peter seems to be taking kind of anti-ibogaine stance that, imo, is pretty weak, and potentially could be quite destructive, given the media penchant for over-focussing on in-fighting in “subcultural” areas.

I mailed him and asked if he would like to join this debate personally, and he wrote me back yesterday saying he would sign up to this list. So, hopefully we shall soon find out what his views are and whether they will withstand a bit of probing.

Nick

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so ultra-secular that he is quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion (still recovering from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of the word “Cult” to describe the ibogaine movement was particularly obnoxious, given that it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by the Bushoids.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring was so effective in ’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own inhouse trial of Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only guarantee of a reasonable development timeline and transparency of results) that I suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it. There was possibly one half of a degree of separation between Ernie Drucker and John Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove of the HRC at the time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit leaked over to the ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove described the position of the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model, with an emphasis on market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS ibogaine) as “the potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is ibogaine.” (Which would be a major advance, when you think about it–but we also called explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts of ALL drugs.)

(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us out 10 years ago are now looking for ways to stop binge crystal meth/unsafe sex. The recent finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial cell-line derived neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior confirms that ibogaine ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of GAY CITY NEWS. But Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports the original 1994 decision, and takes the position that there is no more effective medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than wellbutrin–that if you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re talking “miracle drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic that the people currently getting enough money to FINISH testing ibogaine, and spending it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign instead, voted against ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to crystal, and ended up contracting a more more drug-resistent form of HIV…

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine? What if they’d chose a completely different menu of drugs if they could determine what was being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or Afghan warlords? We had a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then Owsley flooded the country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a problem only for the fringes of the drug scene.

So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in the hall after the forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall out. Different drugs have different effects, even though Peter replied that he never takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously. Ibogaine was developed by the druggies themselves as an act of self-determination.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to exorcism. If it really is possible to replicate the physical processes in the brain induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that it be controlled by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).

So like the Marxists, Cohen says that things have to become really terrible so that the system is overthrown–before they can become better– no matter that the suffering that is going on right at this movement is totally unnecessary. The important thing is that his position be vindicated.

I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B. Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come to New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

I dunno. The straight left (ACT UP was taken over by Workers’ World) isn’t doing as well right now as we are. Lynn Stewart was just convicted for helping blind Sheik communicate with his followers in Egypt; Deborah Mash just resumed FDA-approved trials of Ibogaine. Lemme see– Us forcing to system to legalize ANY psychedelic drug (even one as weird as ibogaine) doesn’t sound defeatist to me. Not compared to going to prison.

But then I was never big on the heroin solution anyway.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Vector Vector wrote:
I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Wrong! After he told me neurochemistry is irrelevant, and I said facts are stubborn things, I patted him on the back and said (in my best Hail Fellow Well-met voice) “Admit it, Peter, you support prohibition of Ibogaine!” And he does, because he seeks to ban it from discussion at legalization forums, to cast this pall over it so as to hamstring any movement to legalize it in the U.S. (the onlybig country where it’s illegal, and one pushing to prohibit everywhere else, as was just done in Denmark because Indra was sending it directly into the U.S.)

Sara wrote:
Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

Actually I think he’s bad for legalization. He is, for instance, also against the Dutch separation of marijuana and hard drugs, because he said so when I tried to ask him where Dutch gov’t fact sheets originated describing the decline of heroin use after the adoption of the current system. If you can’t even tolerate personal use amounts of grass, forget about personal use amounts of everything else. What he seems to be for is market anarchy without the social benefit of regulation–which never will help you sell any liberalization of the drug situation to the politicians. Or as I said to Donald Grove, does that mean that wherever marijuana and hashish are present, cocaine and heroin must be allowed also? Or that you hand over control of the marijuana market to people who will use the money to feel their habits, while turning on all their customers to smack?

Howard wrote:
I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation. It is all process and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

The reason Howard never saw it was that it never happened. I think he may have actually walking down the hall with us when I was talking to Peter, so he wouldn’t have seen any yelling, because there was none.

I admit being peeved that Peter dodged any actual debate. His rap would have focused my presentation on Ibogaine since 1990, which would have shortened it at least 40%.

Steve Anker wrote:
Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate for a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be honored to be there while you go through it.

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a relapsing junkie. It always goes that way. I certainly don’t want the $4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days, not unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Nick, I am not sure I understand you.
You say

” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Please explain.

Nick is actually atypical on the list, in backing the social “encouragement” of people to quit. Cohen, on the other hand, is a utopian anarchist. Myself, I’m a marijuana bolshevik, advocating that all soft drugs scenes separate themselves from hard drugs by pushing ibogaine.

Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes cutting the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical pain people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.
I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!
ciao
pc

Why not ibogaine?

Hi Peter,

I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under the influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly. Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting the rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.

Not exactly harm reduction.

For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to access to psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively low level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to say that people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as opiates, whenever they want without regard for the highly physically addictive nature of these drugs.

In the U.S., all that is allowed is methadone, buprenorphin, and SSRI’s. No pot, no psychedelics, except peyote for Native Americans. People who want to change this are every bit as utopian as the 12 step fascists and the utopian libertarians, you understand. We just want a different outcome.

Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you make your position more clear? You have something against this substance?

About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are great for as long as needed.

Regards

Nick

His stance on Ibogaine is simple: it has always threatened to take over the legalization agenda, and to make all his favorite arguments obsolete. Why– he might actually have to read up on neurochemistry. I remember one ibo forum at the Lindesmith Center: Ethan Nadelmann literally had to be told by everyone in the room that they wanted to continue the presentation on neuro-chem when he tried to stop it because he didn’t understand it and he was getting bored. They’re all the same.

Randy wrote:
I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to. It just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize Methadone, and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not to mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions. That’s just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting around thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and don’t know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a choice. A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I looked hard, very hard. If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine then it just can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to interrupt their addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer they have to suffer needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my treatment I would have done it just for the addiction interruption aspects of Ibogaine, but man those trails were cool and the Holideck was incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of Ibogaine. I’m afraid that Steve is right.      Randy

I guess the ones who want out will just have to go on being cannon fodder in Peter’s war of ideas. Too bad real people suffer and die. But for these academics, it’s a living.

Cures not Wars has a simple three part program:

1) Turn control of all aspects of drugs policy including law enforcement over to ibogaine proponents. The other people had their chance, and they muffed it.

2) National Service (a draft) for all opponents of ibogaine and cannabis, in a kind of a cross between the peace corps and the civilian conservation corps.

3) Focus the effort on reversing global warming through water reclamation projects, replacing trees with hemp, etc. Tax every entity that had cannabis prohibition to pay for it.

Marijuana bolshevism.

Dana/cnw

From: “Cheryl” <cherylca@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult- dear Dr. Cohen
Date: February 11, 2005 at 12:02:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dr. Cohen is one of the few people who supports the right of drug users to be treated with dignity like human beings. He does argue with others and rile them up but so does everyone else.

What Dana is writing, what Howard wrote, what Peter Cohen says and what I saw happen at the harm reduction conference are all different. The talk that Patrick gave at the opening plenary was also different. What packed your ibogaine room was patrick ranting about the war on drugs and if the establishment has decided addiction is a disease, then why is he doing cold turkey behind bars for having a disease. In case your deaf and blind that got the room full of applause. He gave huge credit to ibogaine but he also gave huge credit to harm reduction and having clean syringes while he was using heroin.

I’ve never heard Dr. Cohen attack the use of any drug or mandate that anyone has to take anything. Dana Beal spent the whole 90’s doing exactly that and suggesting forced marijuana maintenance after ibogaine. Which are exact quotes of what you used to say, you’ve given that speech at Hash Bash dana.

— On Fri 02/11, Ms Iboga < ms_iboga@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: Ms Iboga [mailto: ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:48:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult- dear Dr. Cohen

Personally, I find it highly ironic that<br>someone(Cohen) who spends so much time trying to push<br>for the user’s right to ingest whatever they feel they<br>need to get through the day would even bother to diss<br>Ibogaine.  He is clearly contradicting himself.<br><br>What if the user wants/needs  a period of sobriety<br>more than anything else?  Hmmm, I guess we should dump<br>them in the methadone program, right, cuz<br>methadone=sobriety, doesn’t it?  Hah!  It just reeks<br>of “keep the beasts sedated, and they won’t cause any<br>trouble.”  Who cares if they end up addicted to a drug<br>which is virtually impossible to get off, which can<br>make a normal bowel movement as difficult as scaling<br>the North Face of Everest…what a crock of impacted<br>shit…<br><br>What Cohen is failing to realize is that many people<br>WANT to give up opiates, but CAN’T, cuz they are<br>hopelessly dependent upon them to function in their<br>day-to-day lives.  It pisses me off that these<br>’scientists’, who have probably NEVER been addicted or<br>even a ‘user’, seem to think they know what is best<br>for everyone else.  What ever happened to the<br>scientific method?<br><br>Dr. Cohen, if you are reading this, I suggest you<br>begin a daily regime of slowly increasing dosages of<br>opiates; continue ad nauseum for several months, and<br>then stop abruptly.  On the third day of opiate<br>withdrawal- when your stomach is churning, you haven’t<br>eaten/slept for days, and your intestines turn to<br>liquid- I would request that you re-read your article,<br>and make the necessary changes.<br><br>And when you can’t stand the pain and depression any<br>longer, please ingest between 18-24mg/kg of Ibogaine,<br>and call me in the morning.<br><br>J.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br> <br>__________________________________<br>Do you Yahoo!?<br>Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.<br>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail<br><br><br>    <br>/]=——————————————————————— <br>=[\<br>  [%] Ibogaine List Commands:  <br>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]<br>    <br>\]=——————————————————————— <br>=[/<br><br><br><br>

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] withdrawals from bup
Date: February 11, 2005 at 12:03:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

can someone please tell me what to expect?  taper and jump?
tough?  thanks and wishing all a peaceful path, ron

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult- dear Dr. Cohen
Date: February 11, 2005 at 11:39:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

julie, well put! 🙂

Would anyone reading this who understands what is
going on please explain what is happening?

I agree with this a lot!

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/index.html?KeepingClean/Peter01.htm~mainFrame

Is Peter Cohen now against ibogaine? I thought he was
pro choice on everything????? If you want to do
opiates do them and still be treated like a human, if
you want to get clean with ibogaien then do it. If you
want to etc etc.

Is he against ibogaine now????

What did I miss? I am utterly lost. No jokes please!
😉 It happens!

Carla B

— Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:

Personally, I find it highly ironic that
someone(Cohen) who spends so much time trying to
push
for the user’s right to ingest whatever they feel
they
need to get through the day would even bother to
diss
Ibogaine.  He is clearly contradicting himself.

What if the user wants/needs  a period of sobriety
more than anything else?  Hmmm, I guess we should
dump
them in the methadone program, right, cuz
methadone=sobriety, doesn’t it?  Hah!  It just reeks
of “keep the beasts sedated, and they won’t cause
any
trouble.”  Who cares if they end up addicted to a
drug
which is virtually impossible to get off, which can
make a normal bowel movement as difficult as scaling
the North Face of Everest…what a crock of impacted
shit…

What Cohen is failing to realize is that many people
WANT to give up opiates, but CAN’T, cuz they are
hopelessly dependent upon them to function in their
day-to-day lives.  It pisses me off that these
‘scientists’, who have probably NEVER been addicted
or
even a ‘user’, seem to think they know what is best
for everyone else.  What ever happened to the
scientific method?

Dr. Cohen, if you are reading this, I suggest you
begin a daily regime of slowly increasing dosages of
opiates; continue ad nauseum for several months, and
then stop abruptly.  On the third day of opiate
withdrawal- when your stomach is churning, you
haven’t
eaten/slept for days, and your intestines turn to
liquid- I would request that you re-read your
article,
and make the necessary changes.

And when you can’t stand the pain and depression any
longer, please ingest between 18-24mg/kg of
Ibogaine,
and call me in the morning.

J.

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult- dear Dr. Cohen
Date: February 11, 2005 at 11:27:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julia,

You know how to make a point :-).

I dont really know what is going on here. I find it remarkable that anyone could be so ignorant as Dana’s email suggests re Cohen et al. Frankly, if its true, then its just another person to waste energy on. Some people thrive on the attention they get riling others. Who knows? Of course people who are employed well tend to go with the employer. Not to mention the fact that people are so smug they have no concept of what others are going through. Compass-ion is a dial on a compass they dont seem to have switched on. They confuse scientific studies with reality. Basically they are pure nerds. The results say nothing of the complexities of the persons personal life.

Its astounding that we live with such ignorance. Goes to show the educational system doesn’t work – feeds the machine, yes. If it did they might know where to find their compass or to know they actually were missing it.

Lee

Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Personally, I find it highly ironic that
someone(Cohen) who spends so much time trying to push
for the user’s right to ingest whatever they feel they
need to get through the day would even bother to diss
Ibogaine. He is clearly contradicting himself.

What if the user wants/needs a period of sobriety
more than anything else? Hmmm, I guess we should dump
them in the methadone program, right, cuz
methadone=sobriety, doesn’t it? Hah! It just reeks
of “keep the beasts sedated, and they won’t cause any
trouble.” Who cares if they end up addicted to a drug
which is virtually impossible to get off, which can
make a normal bowel movement as difficult as scaling
the North Face of Everest…what a crock of impacted
shit…

What Cohen is failing to realize is that many people
WANT to give up opiates, but CAN’T, cuz they are
hopelessly dependent upon them to function in their
day-to-day lives. It pisses me off that these
‘scientists’, who have probably NEVER been addicted or
even a ‘user’, seem to think they know what is best
for everyone else. What ever happened to the
scientific method?

Dr. Cohen, if you are reading this, I suggest you
begin a daily regime of slowly increasing dosages of
opiates; continue ad nauseum for several months, and
then stop abruptly. On the third day of opiate
withdrawal- when your stomach is churning, you haven’t
eaten/slept for days, and your intestines turn to
liquid- I would request that you re-read your article,
and make the necessary changes.

And when you can’t stand the pain and depression any
longer, please ingest between 18-24mg/kg of Ibogaine,
and call me in the morning.

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 11, 2005 at 11:10:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI randy,
I agree with what you are saying here. My first session I was completely in another world and the room looked like it was on the other side. So I did not care for nor want sounds etc.
I think with mini-sesions it can be different but again its impossible to know exactly what music suits at what phase of the low-dose journey.
I tend to go on the safe side and pick one track as a bass line throughout. At times I have played around with selections and sometimes they were great if they matched the energy I was working with. Other times they were in the way.
Whatever music is on it better be dam good. Rain forest is probably the best place to start for a mini-session but even then low and quiet as there are times when you can hear voices talking in the head – which I have to admit suffers with the presence of music.
I think people need to get to know their own needs and feelings on it.
I have actually had sessions where the spirit guides told me to take off the headset.
Lee

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
I don’t know about everyone else, but for me I didn’t want external stimuli like music interrupting what was going on in my head. I had music in my head the whole time. At one point I saw what I perceived as Bwiti women dancing to the Rumba I had going on in between my ears. I think if I had had music on, I would have missed that. I guess it depends on the individual. After the trip dies down it might be good to have jungle sounds, or waterfall sounds and the like going. After I had been on the Holideck my sense of smell was very sensitive too. My session lasted more than 2 days because of the methadone so maybe I was just burnt out. I wouldn’t have changed a thing even if I could, except for the nausea.    Randy

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult- dear Dr. Cohen
Date: February 11, 2005 at 10:48:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Personally, I find it highly ironic that
someone(Cohen) who spends so much time trying to push
for the user’s right to ingest whatever they feel they
need to get through the day would even bother to diss
Ibogaine.  He is clearly contradicting himself.

What if the user wants/needs  a period of sobriety
more than anything else?  Hmmm, I guess we should dump
them in the methadone program, right, cuz
methadone=sobriety, doesn’t it?  Hah!  It just reeks
of “keep the beasts sedated, and they won’t cause any
trouble.”  Who cares if they end up addicted to a drug
which is virtually impossible to get off, which can
make a normal bowel movement as difficult as scaling
the North Face of Everest…what a crock of impacted
shit…

What Cohen is failing to realize is that many people
WANT to give up opiates, but CAN’T, cuz they are
hopelessly dependent upon them to function in their
day-to-day lives.  It pisses me off that these
‘scientists’, who have probably NEVER been addicted or
even a ‘user’, seem to think they know what is best
for everyone else.  What ever happened to the
scientific method?

Dr. Cohen, if you are reading this, I suggest you
begin a daily regime of slowly increasing dosages of
opiates; continue ad nauseum for several months, and
then stop abruptly.  On the third day of opiate
withdrawal- when your stomach is churning, you haven’t
eaten/slept for days, and your intestines turn to
liquid- I would request that you re-read your article,
and make the necessary changes.

And when you can’t stand the pain and depression any
longer, please ingest between 18-24mg/kg of Ibogaine,
and call me in the morning.

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 11, 2005 at 10:13:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know about everyone else, but for me I didn’t want external stimuli like music interrupting what was going on in my head. I had music in my head the whole time. At one point I saw what I perceived as Bwiti women dancing to the Rumba I had going on in between my ears. I think if I had had music on, I would have missed that. I guess it depends on the individual. After the trip dies down it might be good to have jungle sounds, or waterfall sounds and the like going. After I had been on the Holideck my sense of smell was very sensitive too. My session lasted more than 2 days because of the methadone so maybe I was just burnt out. I wouldn’t have changed a thing even if I could, except for the nausea.    Randy

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 11, 2005 at 10:05:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Dana, I had a lot of fun reading the replies 😉
but what are you talking about? In the agenda Howard
printed, you’re talking about ibogaine having benefits
for methamphetamine users who want to be clean.
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

What does any of this have to do with debating Peter
Cohen?

I don’t understand why you spend so much time wanting
to argue with Peter, when Howard asked Patrick to
invite him there in the first place and both of them
support his opinions. If they don’t then I’m lost
which is possible! 😉 because the only addiction
articles that appear in the keeping clean section
besides Patrick are Stanton Peele and Peter Cohen,
both of who you are attacking? I admit that I’m not
listening very much to anyone who talks about
addiction and hasn’t been a addict before because for
them it’s just a career but both Stanton and Peter
don’t look to be against ibogaine, you keep saying
they are but you’re the only one saying that.

I don’t understand what anybody is talking about
anymore or what it has to do with ibogaine. I thought
that the harm reduction community supported ibogaine?
I don’t know anyone involved with harm reduction who
is against ibogaine in a big way while I know many in
the 12 steps who are.

Who involved with harm reduction is attacking
ibogaine??

Carla B

— Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list,
but my actions and
words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter
Cohen thread, so here
goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in
legalization circles
for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it
was telling that
he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go
on in his assigned
order, which would given me a chance to refute his
screed point by
point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was
that using ibo is
not much else than using methadone or some other
drug or treatment, to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and
use-patterns some people seem
to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and
that different drug
effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit
as ignorant and
bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the
twelvesteppers who say
“ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.”
Peter displays
absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the
U.S., methadone
represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is
illegal, and
stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or
that methadone is
an exquisite instrument of social control, and that
Ibogaine frees you
from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for
self determination
in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use
it ( given we do not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the
same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon
( quite unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and
ultra dangerous
idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so
ultra-secular that he is
quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion
(still recovering
from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of
the word “Cult” to
describe the ibogaine movement was particularly
obnoxious, given that
it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by
the Bushoids.

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Live Audio Web Chat With Sasha and Ann Shulgin
Date: February 11, 2005 at 7:04:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is it possible to actually listen to a recording as I dont see any obvious link to the actual recording. The link goes to the page details???? Lee

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: Ethan Nadelmann, DPAlliance
[mailto:alerts@actioncenter.drugpolicy.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:03 AM
To: blackhd@optonline.net
Subject: Live Audio Web Chat With Sasha and Ann Shulgin

February 10, 2005manage my subscription | text version

Please Join Me for a Web Chat with Psychedelics Researchers Dr. Sasha
Shulgin and Ann Shulgin

Dear Kevin,
I am pleased to invite you to a live audio web chat on Tuesday, February 22
at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST with myself, Dr. Sasha Shulgin, the noted psychedelic
chemist and pharmacologist, and his wife Ann Shulgin, the beloved writer and
therapist. Dr. Shulgin, a former Dow research chemist, is well known for his
creation and discovery of new psychoactive chemicals and for his promotion
in the late 1970s and early 1980s of the use of MDMA in psychotherapy. Sasha
and Ann Shulgin together authored and published the books PIHKAL: A Chemical
Love Story and TIHKAL: The Continuation, detailing the synthesis of and
their personal experience with hundreds of psychedelics.
The Shulgins will be online to address your questions on a range of topics
from the “war on drugs” to the therapeutic use of MDMA. Please email
questions@drugpolicy.org before February 22 to submit questions, and don’t
forget to bookmark the chat address!
When: Tuesday, February 22, 2005
3 PM PST / 6 PM EST
Where: http://www.drugpolicy.org/events/shulginchat
Read on for further information about the Shulgins and myself:
Sasha Shulgin studied Chemistry at Harvard University and Biochemistry and
Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco. He has authored
over 200 research papers published in peer reviewed scientific journals,
been awarded some 20 patents and written four books. Sasha has been studying
the chemistry and effects of psychedelics for over 30 years. He was recently
featured in the New York Times Magazine, which described him “not as a
scientist in the modern sense but as a different type — what Aldous Huxley,
the novelist turned psychedelic philosopher, once described as a ‘naturalist
of the mind.'”
Ann Shulgin is a therapist who conducted psychedelic therapy before 1985,
when MDMA was effectively made illegal when it was reclassified as a
Schedule I drug. Ann is a researcher and spokesperson for the beneficial use
of psychedelics, including MDMA, in a therapeutic setting. The Shulgins
travel and speak extensively on the topic of psychedelics.
I am the founder and executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, the
leading organization in the United States promoting alternatives to the “war
on drugs.” I’ve spent many wonderful hours with Sasha and Ann over the
years. It will be a real pleasure to have you join our conversation.
To submit a question now, please use the following email address:
questions@drugpolicy.org .
I encourage you to pass along word about the chat to other people you know
who might be interested, and look forward to seeing you online on the 22nd!
Sincerely,

To Contact or Make a Donation by Mail to the Drug Policy Alliance:
Drug Policy Alliance
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New York, NY 10018

Get a PDF copy of the Donation Form. For subscription problems please
contact Jeanette Irwin, Director, Internet Communications
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 11, 2005 at 6:52:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Frances,

I am simplemente stupendo!!!!!!!

Thanks for the feedback. A few nice ideas in there for sessions. Thanks again. The music thing is a big topic in itself.

Aren’t you due a session journey soon? When is that?

Lee

BTW you are an artist aren’t you?
BTB with these smalls and colors they need to be very subtle as the chemical nature of things becomes very apparent during a session and can be quite off putting.

The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Lee !
How are you doing ?!

You can find a selection of compilation of Classical pieces already studied for special relaxation. They use it for Dr. Losanov method of accelered learning.Generaly is Bach and Vivaldi. The music, throught the unique  constuction and ryhtm of Barocco  control the heart and breathing rythm
The colors of the setting are important too. I will go with a light green or light pink,  check studies in Chromotherapy.
A couple of table fountains, the favorite perfum of the patient. and his favorite photos or image, tantra ect… Some nice cut flowers.
I will finish the all experience with  the Ave Maria of  Franz Shubert, in Musicotherapy is most of the time the piece they finish their intervention with
Ion negative generator a plus 🙂

Francis
God Bless

Anitdote
Oxigen
Reanimation kit
Klenex
Bucket
A Porshe, and a  4*4  ready , in the garage.
A plus. 🙂

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting

Hi randy,
I like what you wrote about cleansing with sage – going to look into that. Do you think that helps the vibrational levels in the surrounding atmosphere to be more conducive to the presence of spiritual entites? I noticed in a session that the spirit entities did not like the cuban music I was playing. Yet they seemed cool with a gentle pensive Vivaldi piece I had on constant play. I like to have some sound or other, like rainforest is really good, as it helps the mind not to get too logical imo. Having said that with a post like this I should probably question my sanity before my logic? 🙂
Lee

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
>I even kept a plant next to me for company.

hey Randy, I think that is a Good way. What kind of
Plant was it?
Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts
Date: February 11, 2005 at 6:39:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ron,
Thats very beautiful 🙂
Lee

Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net> wrote:
To the Doc in the trenches: God bless you. There are a few like you on the
list and in the States, but far too few. In my 50 something yrs., the
predominate thinking in the medical community has been–they’ve got to
really hurt before we heal them. Little do they know, those as myself have
been suffering for years, and getting high is but a transient state that
one such as I can only rationalize as being worth the effort it took to get
there. I thank those far too few I have fortuitously bumped into for having
the courage to think outside that box that confines their brethren to the
established detox and treatment protocols for all drugs that I have
seemingly sought out and found over the years while I have struggled to find
comfort in this body I inhabit as I stumble through life. Wishing all a
peaceful path, Ron.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet”
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:19 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we
can do for addicts

> From the article below:
>
>>It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts
>>could be
> induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway
> signs
> erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It isn’t
> like
> that.<
>
> I wish it were just the “US view” I had to worry about.
> But that said, go Ottawa!
>
> Peace and love,
> Preston Peet
>
> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> mistaken for madness”
> Richard Davenport-Hines
>
> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
> Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
> Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
> Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
> Cont. High Times mag/.com
> Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> Columnist New York Waste
> Etc.
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Tim Meehan”
> To: ;
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:58 PM
> Subject: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for
> addicts
>
>
>> Source: Globe and Mail (Canada)
>> Contact: letters@globeandmail.ca
>> Website: http://www.globeandmail.ca/
>> Forum: http://forums.theglobeandmail.com/
>> Copyright: 2005, The Globe and Mail Company
>> Pubdate: February 9, 2005
>> Author: Dr. Gabor Maté
>>
>> It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts
>>
>> The official U.S. response to the free heroin trial about to begin in
>> Vancouver
>> is predictably negative. A spokesman for John Walters, director of the
>> White
>> House Office of National Drug Control Policy, calls it “an inhumane
>> medical
>> experiment.”
>>
>> “I would bet any amount of money the U.S. has exerted extreme pressure on
>> Canada
>> to abort this trial,” Alex Wodak, a prominent Australian addictions
>> researcher,
>> has said. He should know: U.S. opposition helped to abort a heroin trial
>> in his
>> country. It is to Ottawa’s credit that Canada has resisted similar
>> pressure from
>> the Bush administration, whose addictions policies owe more to narrow
>> moralism
>> than to science, compassion or insight.
>>
>> And Canada must withstand more U.S. displeasure if the results of the
>> Vancouver
>> experiment points to our introducing heroin by prescription as part of
>> our
>> addictions treatment armamentarium.
>>
>> The Vancouver trial, known as the NAOMI project (North American Opiate
>> Medications Initiative), will compare the risks and benefits of heroin
>> with
>> those of the synthetic opiate methadone. Similar studies in Switzerland
>> and the
>> Netherlands showed reduced criminal activity, increased employability, a
>> better
>> likelihood of remaining in treatment — and, in some cases, of quitting
>> narcotic
>> use altogether.
>>
>> I’m a physician working with an addict population in Vancouver’s Downtown
>> Eastside, just half a block from the NAOMI site. I don’t expect glowing
>> outcomes
>> in terms of addicts becoming employable or abstinent. Most of the clients
>> in our
>> area are too demoralized, too dependent on other drugs such as cocaine
>> and,
>> above all, too lacking in resources to make such radical changes. What is
>> realistic is to look forward to less crime, better health measures such
>> as
>> reduced hospitalization rates, and closer compliance with treatment. Even
>> such
>> modest goals, if achieved, would be a vast improvement in the lot of many
>> hard-core drug addicts.
>>
>> It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts
>> could be
>> induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway
>> signs
>> erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It
>> isn’t like
>> that. The men and women I work with have had every possible negative
>> consequence
>> visited on them. They’ve lost their jobs, their homes, their spouses,
>> their
>> children and their teeth; they’ve been jailed and beaten; they’ve
>> suffered HIV
>> infection and hepatitis and infections of the heart valves and multiple
>> pneumonias and abscesses and sores of every sort. They will not, until
>> something
>> spontaneously transforms their perspective on life, abandon their
>> compulsion to
>> use drugs. The question is only this: How shall we, as a society, respond
>> to
>> their predicament? With unenforceable laws? With moral preaching? With
>> medical
>> practices that don’t embrace the full range of options?
>>
>> Abstinence is a realistic goal for some drug addicts, but, among the
>> downtown
>> hard core, only an infinitesimal few. Rehabilitation offers hope for many
>> more,
>> but, among my patients, that’s still only a minority. In part, that is
>> due to
>> their being mired in addictive cycles and, in part, due to the sheer lack
>> of
>> adequate facilities, halfway homes and well-trained staff. This society
>> lacks
>> the political vision and will to establish and fund the wide-ranging,
>> gradual,
>> step-wise programs most addicts need to escape their habits.
>>
>> What remains is the harm-reduction model. It’s designed not to change
>> anyone but
>> to reduce the noxious effects of abusive childhoods, personal
>> dysfunction,
>> irrational drug laws, social neglect and a lifetime of bad choices. For
>> some,
>> only the provision of prescribed heroin can break the cycle of crime and
>> life in
>> the streets.
>>
>> This week, I visited one of my patients, hospitalized with abscesses
>> throughout
>> his body and bacterial invasion of his bloodstream. This man once lay
>> down on a
>> railway track, in a drug haze, and woke with a shattered hip and an
>> amputated
>> arm. I asked him why all this wasn’t enough to make him give up drugs. “I
>> spend
>> my whole day,” he said, “begging and scrimping and lying for 40 bucks to
>> get a
>> hit. And that gives me relief from pain for maybe five or 10 minutes and
>> it
>> gives me a freedom I can’t describe. And that five minutes is worth it.”
>> I
>> debated with him the merits of such “freedom.” But as a doctor, I can try
>> to
>> reduce his suffering. That, regardless of what winds blow from
>> Washington, is
>> what the NAOMI project is about.
>>
>> Gabor Maté, a Vancouver physician, is working on his next book, I Need A
>> Fix:
>> Life in a Culture of Addiction.
>>
>> <]=———————————————————————–=[>
>> [ Moderated by: Preston Peet | .drugwar.com ]
>> | -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=- |
>> | To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com |
>> [ DrugWar List in Digest Format:
>> war-digest-subscribe@mindvox.com ]
>> <]=———————————————————————–=[>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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>
>

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Provider’s Charter- leaving peeps in hotels
Date: February 11, 2005 at 5:53:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Julie,

I think it is very harsh actually to leave someone thats dying. I can imagine the trauma they are undergoing.

Unfortunately, thats the reality in the US if providers are to survive and not get locked up. The UK is different. Thats why a client needs to know beforehand what will happen in the event of an emergency. And a proper procedure for that should be in place.

Having said all this, I have no doubt that there are already excellent protocols in place by various individuals. But for whatever reason (possibly very good ones) they are staying quiet on the subject right now.

The reality in Europe is very different to the reality of life in the US.

Myself I do not not see eboga as a group of tribes. I see it as the unifying force between all the members. But perhaps I need to exercise a little concern before pushing too much on this particular issue.

Maybe I will put something together and call it a Provider’s Protocol and anyone can chose to refer to it or simply ignore it.

Thats probably the best way forward and maybe in time it may get accepted generally. In any case I am looking at the training of providers for the general public and I need this Charter or Protocol for myself also.

So any more ideas on whats needed please add in your tuppence worth!

eg. Client – Provider relationshìp????

with love,

Lee

Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Nick and Lee,

I am not a provider, nor do I think I ever will be,
but the idea of leaving someone in a hotel for the
meds/ambulance to pick up is pretty harsh. I
understand the political situation in the States, and
it is most unfortunate; I guess in the US this would
seem to be the best option.

But elsewhere in the world, where Ibogaine is not
illegal, I feel it should be the provider’s
responsibility to remain with the patient until the
paramedics arrive, give them the lowdown, and then
take their leave- provided the patient has signed some
form of agreement stating that they understand the
potential risks involved with Ibo treatment and waive
the facilitator in the event of accidental
injury/death.
To do otherwise seems very irresponsible and cruel to
me.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 11, 2005 at 4:17:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I hear what your saying.  I did the healthy diet and milk thistle etc. etc. for quite a few years but in the end it didn’t help cos the virus just kept doing its own cycle.  If you’ve only had symptoms once sounds like you could have had acute hep C which means exposure to the virus but your own body or immune system has fought it off.  Chronic hepatitis is where it keeps coming back and your body hasn’t managed to battle it.  I fought against the whole interferon system for ages but eventually got so tired and sick from the virus any option for treatment sounded better and better.  Allison    PS.  Am hoping the treatment is a success as I sure don’t want to go through all this shit again & it would be great to feel like some sort of person with some energy again.

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thursday, 10 February 2005 9:18:50 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

I;’m not too concerned…….I’ve only ever had symptoms once and that was probably just after contracting it.  I’ve only ever used Milk Thistle and related herbs, I didn’t like the sound of interferon (aint nobody interferon with MY liver like that LOL)  and a biopsy gives me the shits!! If an organ is sick, why the hell would ya wanna poke a bluddy great needle into it??????? Cheesh!!
Anyway, hope you treatments have worked excellently for you….
Cheers for the info
Kirk
From: Allison Senepart [mailto:paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz] 
Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 12:11 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

Apparently blood tests for liver counts are not all that reliable.  The most accurate test is a biopsy that will give you a genotype of Hep C and the level of inflammation and fibrosis in the liver.  There is a PCR test  to detect a positive or neg to the virus in the body but they only do it during and after treatment to see if the virus has been eradicated.  I’m just finishing a 6 month interferon & ribaviron course and fingers crossed for good results.  Had one PCR test at 4 months that was negative and am hoping future results will be clear.  I found a site called Janis and friends Hep C support at  http://janis7hepc.com/ good and there are some others although the medication & treatment is different to us here in NZ.  All a question of funding and cost.  Also there is a good Aussie site but can’t remember the link just at the moment.  Probably have the Alzheimer problem too.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 11:15:23 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

How accurate are liver tests?  I know you can get the liver count done, showing what state it is in, but the Hep C testing isn’t too good yet is it?  “They” say they can do a test that shows whether you’ve cleared the virus…..which to me is misleading because as far as I know you’ll always have the virus in one form or another……inactive or active.
Anyone more knowledgeable on this than moi???
Thanks
KirstyoHohowd.,d.gkds;gsa;

 

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 11, 2005 at 2:48:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Me too am interested in that.  If there was an alternative to the interferon it would be wonderful.  I know there was some talk of the effects of ibogaine on the liver, especially if there were liver problems but am not sure of the big picture.  Would be good if someone could answer that one.  An nearly finished 6 months treatment on interferon etc.   Feel like shit, have lost lots of weight and hair falling out a bit along with all the other horrible side effects from the medication, rashes, herpe sores etc.  Surely with all the knowledge out there it must be possible to find an alternative treatment.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thursday, 10 February 2005 2:17:44 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

This talk of Hep C has made me want to ask a question I’ve wanted to ask for a while. Why hasn’t someone done a viral load test before Ibogaine and after to see if there is a reduction? How much would it cost for someone to do this on their own? Seems to me if there is irrefutable proof that Ibogaine really does help with Hep C that the government would at least pick up on it. I know, I know, yea right, but it could happen. Anyway, I think it would be a good idea to avoid the side effects of Interferon treatment if possible. To put it mildly, it sucked!! It could be a good choice for someone smart enough to look for an alternative to the standard Hep C. protocol. And way, way, cheaper. I suspect the information is out there waiting for some money.         Randy

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts
Date: February 11, 2005 at 1:35:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To the Doc in the trenches: God bless you.  There are a few like you on the list and in the States, but far too few.  In my 50 something yrs.,  the predominate thinking in the medical community has been–they’ve got to really hurt before we heal them.  Little do they know,  those as myself have been suffering for years,  and getting high is but a transient state that one such as I can only rationalize as being worth the effort it took to get there. I thank those far too few I have fortuitously bumped into for having the courage to think outside that box that confines their brethren to the established detox and treatment protocols for all drugs that I have seemingly sought out and found over the years while I have struggled to find comfort in this body I inhabit as I stumble through life.  Wishing all a peaceful path, Ron.
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:19 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts

From the article below:

It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts could be
induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway signs
erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It isn’t like
that.<

I wish it were just the “US view” I had to worry about.
But that said, go Ottawa!

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Tim Meehan” <fc697@ncf.ca>
To: <cmap@mapinc.org>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <editor@mapinc.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:58 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts

Source: Globe and Mail (Canada)
Contact: letters@globeandmail.ca
Website: http://www.globeandmail.ca/
Forum: http://forums.theglobeandmail.com/
Copyright: 2005, The Globe and Mail Company
Pubdate: February 9, 2005
Author: Dr. Gabor Maté

It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts

The official U.S. response to the free heroin trial about to begin in Vancouver
is predictably negative. A spokesman for John Walters, director of the White
House Office of National Drug Control Policy, calls it “an inhumane medical
experiment.”

“I would bet any amount of money the U.S. has exerted extreme pressure on Canada
to abort this trial,” Alex Wodak, a prominent Australian addictions researcher,
has said. He should know: U.S. opposition helped to abort a heroin trial in his
country. It is to Ottawa’s credit that Canada has resisted similar pressure from
the Bush administration, whose addictions policies owe more to narrow moralism
than to science, compassion or insight.

And Canada must withstand more U.S. displeasure if the results of the Vancouver
experiment points to our introducing heroin by prescription as part of our
addictions treatment armamentarium.

The Vancouver trial, known as the NAOMI project (North American Opiate
Medications Initiative), will compare the risks and benefits of heroin with
those of the synthetic opiate methadone. Similar studies in Switzerland and the
Netherlands showed reduced criminal activity, increased employability, a better
likelihood of remaining in treatment — and, in some cases, of quitting narcotic
use altogether.

I’m a physician working with an addict population in Vancouver’s Downtown
Eastside, just half a block from the NAOMI site. I don’t expect glowing outcomes
in terms of addicts becoming employable or abstinent. Most of the clients in our
area are too demoralized, too dependent on other drugs such as cocaine and,
above all, too lacking in resources to make such radical changes. What is
realistic is to look forward to less crime, better health measures such as
reduced hospitalization rates, and closer compliance with treatment. Even such
modest goals, if achieved, would be a vast improvement in the lot of many
hard-core drug addicts.

It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts could be
induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway signs
erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It isn’t like
that. The men and women I work with have had every possible negative consequence
visited on them. They’ve lost their jobs, their homes, their spouses, their
children and their teeth; they’ve been jailed and beaten; they’ve suffered HIV
infection and hepatitis and infections of the heart valves and multiple
pneumonias and abscesses and sores of every sort. They will not, until something
spontaneously transforms their perspective on life, abandon their compulsion to
use drugs. The question is only this: How shall we, as a society, respond to
their predicament? With unenforceable laws? With moral preaching? With medical
practices that don’t embrace the full range of options?

Abstinence is a realistic goal for some drug addicts, but, among the downtown
hard core, only an infinitesimal few. Rehabilitation offers hope for many more,
but, among my patients, that’s still only a minority. In part, that is due to
their being mired in addictive cycles and, in part, due to the sheer lack of
adequate facilities, halfway homes and well-trained staff. This society lacks
the political vision and will to establish and fund the wide-ranging, gradual,
step-wise programs most addicts need to escape their habits.

What remains is the harm-reduction model. It’s designed not to change anyone but
to reduce the noxious effects of abusive childhoods, personal dysfunction,
irrational drug laws, social neglect and a lifetime of bad choices. For some,
only the provision of prescribed heroin can break the cycle of crime and life in
the streets.

This week, I visited one of my patients, hospitalized with abscesses throughout
his body and bacterial invasion of his bloodstream. This man once lay down on a
railway track, in a drug haze, and woke with a shattered hip and an amputated
arm. I asked him why all this wasn’t enough to make him give up drugs. “I spend
my whole day,” he said, “begging and scrimping and lying for 40 bucks to get a
hit. And that gives me relief from pain for maybe five or 10 minutes and it
gives me a freedom I can’t describe. And that five minutes is worth it.” I
debated with him the merits of such “freedom.” But as a doctor, I can try to
reduce his suffering. That, regardless of what winds blow from Washington, is
what the NAOMI project is about.

Gabor Maté, a Vancouver physician, is working on his next book, I Need A Fix:
Life in a Culture of Addiction.

<]=———————————————————————–=[>
[           Moderated by: Preston Peet | .drugwar.com           ]
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From: “Jamilah” <jamilah@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson with the Iboga???
Date: February 11, 2005 at 12:37:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you for just clearing a mystery that goes back to my teens in 1969, we did a drug that was billed as a “a drug that treats Parkinson’s disease”. This powdered substance had our perceptions so whacked out, it was extremely memorable, different from any other LSD or mescaline. It was like the funnest drug I’ve ever done. Never knew what it was. I bet it was Trihexylphenidyl  now that I’ve looked it up. Are you experienced?
ciao,
Jamilah
—– Original Message —–
From: Pipetman9@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson with the Iboga???

Sorry to see there is some misunderstanding of my statement, I wanted to say
1.  that Iboga might in theory be a candidate to test to treat (only) symptoms e.g. like amantadine which is an antiparkinson drug and has in common with ibo that it is an NMDA blocker. Or like Extasy which treats the so called off phenomenon of Parkinson.
2. that there are much better alternative treatments of Parkinson (most not “do it yourself” methods), so that there is not much reason to think about Ibo except for those interested in the academic hobby of pharmacology. Some antiparkinson drugs are very interesting indeed e.g. Trihexylphenidyl a prescription drug against parkinson is also a drug of abuse, some  like it.

If you look for a “do it yourself” alternative treatment of Parkinson your options are of course limited, things like Q10 and ENADA etc.

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2004/01/05/coenzyme_q10_parkinsons_disease.htm

http://www.ceri.com/parkpage.htm

http://faculty.washington.edu/~ely/

I would be know that treatment of Parkinson by Ibogain. My mother is suffering from Parkinson. So would you tell me how could I help her with Iboga.

Best Regards
FakePlacebo

i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
uptake afaik.

there is something called Parkinson syndrome (e.g. as result of adverse reaction of intoxication by neuroleptics), this condition is often reversible. “Real” Parkinson means that lets say about 70% of the cells in a brain region called substancia nigra already died down or went into a state of metabolic dormancy when the disease is diagnosed, this is not so easy to repair. Parkinson is basically a disorder of oxidative and free radical cell and mitochondrial damage of certain brain regions that use Dopamine. Conventional drugs that treat Parkinson seem only to treat the symptoms not the cause. Selegiline is a Parkinson drug (that has effects that cant be fully explained by its MAO inhibiting ability), it is a structural relative of phenylethylamine, Bromocryptine a structural relative of the ergot alkaloids also is an antiparkinson drug. Ibogaine is relative to these molecules.
Alternative medicine that treats the cause of Parkinson is ignored by established medicine like Ibogaine is ignored by the establishment. All the ignored molecules have in common that they are not patentable (so called orphan drugs) which means they would make no money.

regards; Juergen

From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 9:42:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 10, 2005, at 9:21 PM, Vector Vector wrote:

Dana you need to use system update, Patrick is sending from Apple Mail
2.619.2 and you’re only using 2.619. Your trailing by .2 😉

Unless he’s using a developer release which won’t count against you.

I’d like to see everyone from @phantom.com come on the list at the same
time and argue. That would be great 🙂

Vector, go spank yourself.

Dana … when that preTty blue balL with the looping arrows wrapped around it POPS OUT and starts bouncing sideways all over your dock, doin’ it’s little OpenGL & Quartz Extreme dance … it’s not a flashback.  THE COMPUTER wants attention.

CLICK IT.

It’ll make you feel happy inside.

Dr. Kroupa

Department of Bioassays / University of Little Cuba

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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 9:34:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:49 PM, Cheryl wrote:

That’s not true Dana, now your fibbing. I was at the conference and you and Peter were screaming at each other in the hallway so loud it was louder then the back of the room which was the only place left to stand.

Cheryl,

That never happened.  It wuz a mass hallucination brought on by the sexual tension of crowds.

(See also: h1p h0P st4rZ in court.  “Yer Honor!  Dat’z boosheet!  Mah client wasn’t in any nightclub firing a gun at people.  If he was in the nightclub, he COULD NOT have fired the gun, because we have 13 ballistic eXperts who will clearly testify that the alleged gat was DEFECTIVE with a curved barrel, that fired bullets sideways, in loOping spirals.  Additionally, my client hurt the trigger fingers on BOTH his hands, while working in THE STUDIO prior to this incident.  Plus, also, he’s on medication and completely insane, and was in Kansas at the time of the alleged incident, taking care of his grandmother.  Probably, it was his CLONE!”)

Patrick

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 9:21:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana you need to use system update, Patrick is sending from Apple Mail
2.619.2 and you’re only using 2.619. Your trailing by .2 😉

Unless he’s using a developer release which won’t count against you.

I’d like to see everyone from @phantom.com come on the list at the same
time and argue. That would be great 🙂

.:vector:.

— Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list, but my actions
and
words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter Cohen thread, so
here
goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in legalization circles

for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it was telling that

he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go on in his
assigned
order, which would given me a chance to refute his screed point by
point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is

not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people
seem
to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and that different
drug
effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit as ignorant and
bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the twelvesteppers who say
“ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.” Peter displays
absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the U.S., methadone
represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is illegal, and
stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or that methadone
is
an exquisite instrument of social control, and that Ibogaine frees
you
from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self
determination
in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so ultra-secular that he
is
quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion (still recovering
from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of the word “Cult” to

describe the ibogaine movement was particularly obnoxious, given that

it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by the Bushoids.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who

said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring was so effective
in
’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own inhouse trial of
Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only guarantee of a
reasonable development timeline and transparency of results) that I
suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it. There was
possibly
one half of a degree of separation between Ernie Drucker and John
Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove of the HRC at the
time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit leaked over to
the
ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove described the position
of
the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model, with an emphasis on
market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS ibogaine) as “the
potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is ibogaine.” (Which

would be a major advance, when you think about it–but we also called

explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts of ALL drugs.)

(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale
a
mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us out 10 years ago
are
now looking for ways to stop binge crystal meth/unsafe sex. The
recent
finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial cell-line derived
neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior confirms that ibogaine
ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of GAY CITY NEWS.
But
Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports the original 1994
decision, and takes the position that there is no more effective
medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than wellbutrin–that if

you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re talking “miracle
drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic that the people
currently getting enough money to FINISH testing ibogaine, and
spending
it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign instead, voted against
ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to crystal, and ended
up
contracting a more more drug-resistent form of HIV…

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in
any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a
culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug

users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine? What if they’d
chose
a completely different menu of drugs if they could determine what was

being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or Afghan warlords? We
had
a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then Owsley flooded the
country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a problem only for the

fringes of the drug scene.

So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures
need
treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in the hall after the
forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall out. Different
drugs have different effects, even though Peter replied that he never

takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously. Ibogaine was
developed
by the druggies themselves as an act of self-determination.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long
as
we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned.
And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to exorcism. If it
really is possible to replicate the physical processes in the brain
induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that it be controlled

by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as
we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this
husband
or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited,
as
it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries for most (the rich excepted).

So like the Marxists, Cohen says that things have to become really
terrible so that the system is overthrown–before they can become
better– no matter that the suffering that is going on right at this
movement is totally unnecessary. The important thing is that his
position be vindicated.

I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say

lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)

clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and

so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their
professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B.
Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred
Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come
to
New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for

free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist voodoo ideology.

I dunno. The straight left (ACT UP was taken over by Workers’ World)
isn’t doing as well right now as we are. Lynn Stewart was just
convicted for helping blind Sheik communicate with his followers in
Egypt; Deborah Mash just resumed FDA-approved trials of Ibogaine.
Lemme
see– Us forcing to system to legalize ANY psychedelic drug (even one

as weird as ibogaine) doesn’t sound defeatist to me. Not compared to
going to prison.

But then I was never big on the heroin solution anyway.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Vector Vector wrote:
I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at
him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what
he
said.

Wrong! After he told me neurochemistry is irrelevant, and I said
facts
are stubborn things, I patted him on the back and said (in my best
Hail
Fellow Well-met voice) “Admit it, Peter, you support prohibition of
Ibogaine!” And he does, because he seeks to ban it from discussion at

legalization forums, to cast this pall over it so as to hamstring any

movement to legalize it in the U.S. (the onlybig country where it’s
illegal, and one pushing to prohibit everywhere else, as was just
done
in Denmark because Indra was sending it directly into the U.S.)

Sara wrote:
Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for

sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs
better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a
sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the
picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

Actually I think he’s bad for legalization. He is, for instance, also

against  the Dutch separation of marijuana and hard drugs, because he

said so when I tried to ask him where Dutch gov’t fact sheets
originated describing the decline of heroin use after the adoption of

the current system. If you can’t even tolerate personal use amounts
of
grass, forget about personal use amounts of everything else. What he
seems to  be for is market anarchy without the social benefit of
regulation–which never will help you sell any liberalization of the
drug situation to the politicians. Or as I said to Donald Grove, does

that mean that wherever marijuana and hashish are present, cocaine
and
heroin must be allowed also? Or that you hand over control of the
marijuana market to people who will use the money to feel their
habits,
while turning on all their customers to smack?

Howard wrote:
I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is
reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to

speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s
method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all
process
and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

The reason Howard never saw it was that it never happened. I think he

may have actually walking down the hall with us when I was talking to

Peter, so he wouldn’t have seen any yelling, because there was none.

I admit being peeved that Peter dodged any actual debate. His rap
would
have focused my presentation on Ibogaine since 1990, which would have

shortened it at least 40%.

Steve Anker wrote:
Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming

conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation
as
possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father,
and
take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often
in
NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered
together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate

for a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be
honored to be there while you go through it.

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a
relapsing junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want
the
$4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days,
not
unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Nick, I am not sure I understand you.
You say

” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in
the
mind.

Please explain.

Nick is actually atypical on the list, in backing the social
“encouragement” of people to quit. Cohen, on the other hand, is a
utopian anarchist. Myself, I’m a marijuana bolshevik, advocating that

all soft drugs scenes separate themselves from hard drugs by pushing
ibogaine.

Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power

people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes
cutting
the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical
pain
people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.
I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be
counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!
ciao
pc

Why not ibogaine?

Hi Peter,

I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight
particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under
the
influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly.

Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting
the
rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much

apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.

Not exactly harm reduction.

For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to
access
to psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively

low level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to
say
that people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as

opiates, whenever they want without regard for the highly
physically
addictive nature of these drugs.

In the U.S., all that is allowed is methadone, buprenorphin, and
SSRI’s. No pot, no psychedelics, except peyote for Native Americans.
People who want to change this are every bit as utopian as the 12
step
fascists and the utopian libertarians, you understand. We just want a

different outcome.

Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on
ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you

make your position more clear? You have something against this
substance?

About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are
great
for as long as needed.

Regards

Nick

His stance on Ibogaine is simple: it has always threatened to take
over
the legalization agenda, and to make all his favorite arguments
obsolete. Why– he might actually have to read up on neurochemistry.
I
remember one ibo forum at the Lindesmith Center: Ethan Nadelmann
literally had to be told by everyone in the room that they wanted to
continue the presentation on neuro-chem when he tried to stop it
because he didn’t understand it and he was getting bored. They’re all

the same.

Randy wrote:
I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and

make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to.
It
just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize
Methadone,
and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not
to
mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions.
That’s
just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not
talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who
wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting
around
thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and
don’t
know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a
choice. A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I
looked hard, very hard. If enough people are successful doing
Ibogaine
then it just can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to
interrupt their addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer

they have to suffer needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my

treatment I would have done it just for the addiction interruption
aspects of Ibogaine, but man those trails were cool and the
Holideck
was incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of
Ibogaine. I’m
afraid that Steve is right.      Randy

I guess the ones who want out will just have to go on being cannon
fodder in Peter’s war of ideas. Too bad real people suffer and die.
But
for these academics, it’s a living.

Cures not Wars has a simple three part program:

1) Turn control of all aspects of drugs policy including law
enforcement over to ibogaine proponents. The other people had their
chance, and they muffed it.

2) National Service (a draft) for all opponents of ibogaine and
cannabis, in a kind of a cross between the peace corps and the
civilian
conservation corps.

3) Focus the effort on reversing global warming through water
reclamation projects, replacing trees with hemp, etc. Tax every
entity
that had cannabis prohibition to pay for it.

Marijuana bolshevism.

Dana/cnw

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From: “Cheryl” <cherylca@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 9:05:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi cutie you should write more to your own list, miss reading you.

Loved the whole event and I thought the ibogaine panel was great but there’s you, your doctor friend, Howard Lotsoff, Dana and I thought Peter gave a good talk, everything after that was that boy running out and yelling fuck everybody and the quiet girl who didn’t have anything to say, John Freelander was also great.

Patrick, Howard, Dana I understand all of you are friends and have been doing this work for years and bless you all but Dana the fact is that the so called hard drug users are sick and tired of being classified as sick and in need of help while someone who smokes pot all day long is a example of being healthy.

Being a chronic pothead is no healthier then being a heroin addict and yes you can say pot has all kinds of health benefits and so too does heroin. Harm reduction objects to your belief that all of us need to be cured and get healthy like people smoking pot all day. Give it a rest.

I think ibogaine is a amazing thing but here’s news for you, people using drugs are no sicker then you Dana, who is another person who uses drugs all the time. What’s the message in that?

— On Thu 02/10, Patrick K.Kroupa < digital@phantom.com > wrote:
From: Patrick K.Kroupa [mailto: digital@phantom.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:24:46 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult

<br>On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:04 PM, Dana Beal wrote:<br><br>> So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and  <br>> so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their  <br>> professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B.  <br>> Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred  <br>> Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come  <br>> to New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up  <br>> for free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.<br><br>This is inaccurate.<br><br>I know Stanton, and he has nothing whatsoever against ibogaine.<br><br>He is pro making choices, against: imagery disease of “addiction.”<br><br>He was going to speak on an IBOGAINE panel, and discuss MAKING CHOICES  <br>after ibogaine, instead of catching a mysterious disease and going to a  <br>12-Step meeting.<br><br>He didn’t make the entire HRC conference because funding was  <br>unavailable.  He did not request a stipend to speak, or any  <br>remuneration whatsoever.<br><br>Stanton is cool people, and has nuthin’ to do with anything else in  <br>your message.<br><br>Patrick<br><br><br><br><br>   <br>/]=——————————————————————— <br>=[\<br>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:  <br>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]<br>   <br>\]=——————————————————————— <br>=[/<br><br><br><br>

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From: “Cheryl” <cherylca@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 8:49:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s not true Dana, now your fibbing. I was at the conference and you and Peter were screaming at each other in the hallway so loud it was louder then the back of the room which was the only place left to stand.

I don’t think Mr. Clear cares what you all did as long as you weren’t the ones who set the hotel on fire, since he gave Patrick  the opening plenary to speak to 1200 people and talk about the ibogaine panel but you are not telling the truth.

Not to refute anything else in your message but you and Peter were yelling and you were making threats.

— On Thu 02/10, Dana Beal < dana@phantom.com > wrote:
From: Dana Beal [mailto: dana@phantom.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:04:17 -0500
Subject: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list, but my actions and <br>words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter Cohen thread, so here <br>goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in legalization circles <br>for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it was telling that <br>he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go on in his assigned <br>order, which would given me a chance to refute his screed point by <br>point.<br><br>Peter Cohen Wrote:<br>> …my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is <br>> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to <br>> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem <br>> to attach to.<br><br>The position that “all drugs are created equal” and that different drug <br>effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit as ignorant and <br>bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the twelvesteppers who say <br>”ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.” Peter displays <br>absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the U.S., methadone <br>represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is illegal, and <br>stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or that methadone is <br>an exquisite instrument of social control, and that Ibogaine frees you <br>from that control.<br><br>> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination <br>> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not <br>> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that <br>> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable <br>> even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous <br>> idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran<br><br>Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so ultra-secular that he is <br>quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion (still recovering <br>from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of the word “Cult” to <br>describe the ibogaine movement was particularly obnoxious, given that <br>it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by the Bushoids.<br><br>> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird <br>> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 <br>> book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who <br>> said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.<br><br>They always trot this one out… This red herring was so effective  in <br>’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own inhouse trial of <br>Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only guarantee of a <br>reasonable development timeline and transparency of results) that I <br>suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it. There was possibly <br>one half of a degree of separation between Ernie Drucker and John <br>Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove of the HRC at the <br>time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit leaked over to the <br>ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove described the position of <br>the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model, with an emphasis on <br>market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS ibogaine) as “the <br>potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is ibogaine.” (Which <br>would be a major advance, when you think about it–but we also called <br>explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts of ALL drugs.)<br><br><br>> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a <br>> mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how <br>> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)<br><br>Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us out 10 years ago are <br>now looking for ways to stop binge crystal meth/unsafe sex. The recent <br>finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial cell-line derived <br>neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior confirms that ibogaine <br>ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of GAY CITY NEWS. But <br>Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports the orig
inal 1994 <br>decision, and takes the position that there is no more effective <br>medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than wellbutrin–that if <br>you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re talking “miracle <br>drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic that the people <br>currently getting enough money to FINISH testing ibogaine, and spending <br>it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign instead, voted against <br>ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to crystal, and ended up <br>contracting a more more drug-resistent form of HIV…<br><br>> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any <br>> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into <br>> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture <br>> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug <br>> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.<br><br>What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine? What if they’d chose <br>a completely different menu of drugs if they could determine what was <br>being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or Afghan warlords? We had <br>a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then Owsley flooded the <br>country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a problem only for the <br>fringes of the drug scene.<br><br>> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need <br>> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we <br>> attribute healing to.<br><br>But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in the hall after the <br>forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall out. Different <br>drugs have different effects, even though Peter replied that he never <br>takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously. Ibogaine was developed <br>by the druggies themselves as an act of self-determination.<br><br>> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as <br>> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that <br>> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And <br>> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.<br><br>More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to exorcism. If it <br>really is possible to replicate the physical processes in the brain <br>induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that it be controlled <br>by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?<br><br>> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek <br>> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we <br>> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband <br>> or wife we hate.<br>> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as <br>> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many <br>> countries for most (the rich excepted).<br><br>So like the Marxists, Cohen says that things have to become really <br>terrible so that the system is overthrown–before they can become <br>better– no matter that the suffering that is going on right at this <br>movement is totally unnecessary. The important thing is that his <br>position be vindicated.<br><br>> I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say <br>> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) <br>> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA <br>> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting <br>> rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.<br><br>So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and <br>so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their <br>professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B. <br>Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred <br>Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come to <br>New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for <br>free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.<br><br>> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, like
able and <br>> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their <br>> defeatist voodoo ideology.<br><br>I dunno. The straight left (ACT UP was taken over by Workers’ World) <br>isn’t doing as well right now as we are. Lynn Stewart was just <br>convicted for helping blind Sheik communicate with his followers in <br>Egypt; Deborah Mash just resumed FDA-approved trials of Ibogaine. Lemme <br>see– Us forcing to system to legalize ANY psychedelic drug (even one <br>as weird as ibogaine) doesn’t sound defeatist to me. Not compared to <br>going to prison.<br><br>But then I was never big on the heroin solution anyway.<br><br>> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.<br>> ciao<br>> pc<br>><br>> PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans <br>> gig.<br>><br><br>Vector Vector wrote:<br>> I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference<br>> reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or<br>> threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he<br>> said.<br><br>Wrong! After he told me neurochemistry is irrelevant, and I said facts <br>are stubborn things, I patted him on the back and said (in my best Hail <br>Fellow Well-met voice) “Admit it, Peter, you support prohibition of <br>Ibogaine!” And he does, because he seeks to ban it from discussion at  <br>legalization forums, to cast this pall over it so as to hamstring any <br>movement to legalize it in the U.S. (the onlybig country where it’s <br>illegal, and one pushing to prohibit everywhere else, as was just done <br>in Denmark because Indra was sending it directly into the U.S.)<br><br>Sara wrote:<br>> Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.<br>> For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works<br>> Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for <br>> sure<br>> He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.<br>> Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a <br>> sacrament<br>> and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,<br>> I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown<br>> Then it will get another spot light.<br>><br>> When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.<br>><br><br>Actually I think he’s bad for legalization. He is, for instance, also <br>against  the Dutch separation of marijuana and hard drugs, because he <br>said so when I tried to ask him where Dutch gov’t fact sheets <br>originated describing the decline of heroin use after the adoption of <br>the current system. If you can’t even tolerate personal use amounts of <br>grass, forget about personal use amounts of everything else. What he <br>seems to  be for is market anarchy without the social benefit of <br>regulation–which never will help you sell any liberalization of the <br>drug situation to the politicians. Or as I said to Donald Grove, does <br>that mean that wherever marijuana and hashish are present, cocaine and <br>heroin must be allowed also? Or that you hand over control of the <br>marijuana market to people who will use the money to feel their habits, <br>while turning on all their customers to smack?<br><br>Howard wrote:<br>> I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is <br>> reported to<br>> have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to <br>> speculate<br>> that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s <br>> method of<br>> initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all process <br>> and if it<br>> gets people thinking, all the better.<br><br>The reason Howard never saw it was that it never happened. I think he <br>may have actually walking down the hall with us when I was talking to <br>Peter, so he wouldn’t have seen any yelling, because there was none.<br><br>I admit being peeved that Peter dodged any actual debate. His rap would <br>have focused my presentation on Ibogaine since 1990, which would have <br>shortened it at least 40%.<br><br>Steve Anker wrote:
<br>> Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming <br>> conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as <br>> possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and <br>> take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in <br>> NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered <br>> together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate <br>> for a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be <br>> honored to be there while you go through it.<br><br>I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a <br>relapsing junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want the <br>$4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days, not <br>unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.<br><br>> —–Original Message—–<br>> From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]<br>> Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52<br>> To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk<br>> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan<br>><br>> Nick, I am not sure I understand you.<br>> You say<br>><br>> ” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the <br>> mind.<br>><br>> Please explain.<br><br>Nick is actually atypical on the list, in backing the social <br>”encouragement” of people to quit. Cohen, on the other hand, is a <br>utopian anarchist. Myself, I’m a marijuana bolshevik, advocating that <br>all soft drugs scenes separate themselves from hard drugs by pushing <br>ibogaine.<br><br>> Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power <br>> people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes cutting <br>> the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical pain <br>> people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.<br>> I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be <br>> counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!<br>> ciao<br>> pc<br><br>Why not ibogaine?<br><br>> Hi Peter,<br>>  <br>> I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight <br>> particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under the <br>> influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly. <br>> Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting the <br>> rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much <br>> apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.<br><br>Not exactly harm reduction.<br><br>> For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to access <br>> to psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively <br>> low level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to say <br>> that people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as <br>> opiates, whenever they want without regard for the highly physically <br>> addictive nature of these drugs.<br><br>In the U.S., all that is allowed is methadone, buprenorphin, and <br>SSRI’s. No pot, no psychedelics, except peyote for Native Americans. <br>People who want to change this are every bit as utopian as the 12 step <br>fascists and the utopian libertarians, you understand. We just want a <br>different outcome.<br><br>>  Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on <br>> ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you <br>> make your position more clear? You have something against this <br>> substance?<br>>  <br>> About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are great <br>> for as long as needed.<br>>  <br>> Regards<br>>  <br>> Nick<br><br>His stance on Ibogaine is simple: it has always threatened to take over <br>the legalization agenda, and to make all his favorite arguments <br>obsolete. Why– he might actually have to read up on neurochemistry. I <br>remember one ibo forum at the Lindesmith Center: Ethan Nadelmann <br>literally had to be told by everyone in the room that they wanted to <br>continue the presentation on neuro-chem when he tried to stop it <br>because he didn’t understand it and he wa
s getting bored. They’re all <br>the same.<br><br>Randy wrote:<br>> I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and <br>> make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to. It <br>> just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize Methadone, <br>> and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not to <br>> mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions. That’s <br>> just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not <br>> talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who <br>> wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting around <br>> thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and don’t <br>> know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a <br>> choice. A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I <br>> looked hard, very hard. If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine <br>> then it just can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to <br>> interrupt their addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer <br>> they have to suffer needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my <br>> treatment I would have done it just for the addiction interruption <br>> aspects of Ibogaine, but man those trails were cool and the Holideck <br>> was incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of Ibogaine. I’m <br>> afraid that Steve is right.      Randy<br><br>I guess the ones who want out will just have to go on being cannon <br>fodder in Peter’s war of ideas. Too bad real people suffer and die. But <br>for these academics, it’s a living.<br><br>Cures not Wars has a simple three part program:<br><br>1) Turn control of all aspects of drugs policy including law <br>enforcement over to ibogaine proponents. The other people had their <br>chance, and they muffed it.<br><br>2) National Service (a draft) for all opponents of ibogaine and <br>cannabis, in a kind of a cross between the peace corps and the civilian <br>conservation corps.<br><br>3) Focus the effort on reversing global warming through water <br>reclamation projects, replacing trees with hemp, etc. Tax every entity <br>that had cannabis prohibition to pay for it.<br><br>Marijuana bolshevism.<br><br>Dana/cnw<br>

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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 8:24:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:04 PM, Dana Beal wrote:

So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B. Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come to New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.

This is inaccurate.

I know Stanton, and he has nothing whatsoever against ibogaine.

He is pro making choices, against: imagery disease of “addiction.”

He was going to speak on an IBOGAINE panel, and discuss MAKING CHOICES after ibogaine, instead of catching a mysterious disease and going to a 12-Step meeting.

He didn’t make the entire HRC conference because funding was unavailable.  He did not request a stipend to speak, or any remuneration whatsoever.

Stanton is cool people, and has nuthin’ to do with anything else in your message.

Patrick

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Science, not a Cult
Date: February 10, 2005 at 8:04:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t usually comment on every topic on the list, but my actions and words were cited (semi-inaccurately) in the Peter Cohen thread, so here goes. Peter and his ilk have blacklisted  me  in legalization circles for more than a decade based on his arguments, so it was telling that he ducked out of the room so he wouldn’t have to go on in his assigned order, which would given me a chance to refute his screed point by point.

Peter Cohen Wrote:
…my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

The position that “all drugs are created equal” and that different drug effects and addictiveness don’t matter is every bit as ignorant and bigoted coming from a legalizer as from the twelvesteppers who say “ibogaine is just drug, all drugs are the same.” Peter displays absolutely no sensitivity to the fact that in the U.S., methadone represents the establishment, and that Ibogaine is illegal, and stigmatized solely because it’s “hallucinogenic.” Or that methadone is an exquisite instrument of social control, and that Ibogaine frees you from that control.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran

Like most European intellectuals, Peter is so ultra-secular that he is quite bent out of shape on the subject of religion (still recovering from the Spanish Inquisition, I guess). His use of the word “Cult” to describe the ibogaine movement was particularly obnoxious, given that it is calculated to provoke an official crackdown by the Bushoids.

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.

They always trot this one out… This red herring was so effective  in ’94 in derailing support in ACT UP for NIDA’s own inhouse trial of Ibogaine (which, as distinct from Mash, was our only guarantee of a reasonable development timeline and transparency of results) that I suppose Cohen and his camp will never stop using it. There was possibly one half of a degree of separation between Ernie Drucker and John Morgan at the DPF and Dan Raymond and Donald Grove of the HRC at the time, so there’s no doubt this inflammatory bullshit leaked over to the ACT UP floor. On the floor, Raymond and Grove described the position of the Cures not Wars Parade (i.e, the Dutch model, with an emphasis on market separation of cannabis and hard drugs–PLUS ibogaine) as “the potheads get their pot, and all anyone else gets is ibogaine.” (Which would be a major advance, when you think about it–but we also called explicitly for legalization of personal use amounts of ALL drugs.)

(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

Ironically, the same people who voted to throw us out 10 years ago are now looking for ways to stop binge crystal meth/unsafe sex. The recent finding about ibogaine upregulating the glial cell-line derived neurotropic factor that blocks binge behavior confirms that ibogaine ought to work for that, as I told Duncan Osbourne of GAY CITY NEWS. But Osbourne is another ACT UP alumnus, so he supports the original 1994 decision, and takes the position that there is no more effective medical treatment for cyrstal meth addiction than wellbutrin–that if you say ibogaine is any better than an SSRI, you’re talking “miracle drug”, and there’s no such thing. Kind of ironic that the people currently getting enough money to FINISH testing ibogaine, and spending it on the “Crystal free and Sexy” ad campaign instead, voted against ibogaine back in ’94, went on to get addicted to crystal, and ended up contracting a more more drug-resistent form of HIV…

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.

What if drug users don’t WANT heroin and cocaine? What if they’d chose a completely different menu of drugs if they could determine what was being produced instead of the Mexican mafia or Afghan warlords? We had a fullblown crystal epidemic in 1966–and then Owsley flooded the country with acid, and suddenly crystal became a problem only for the fringes of the drug scene.

So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

But Facts are stubborn things, as I told Peter in the hall after the forum. Ibogaine heals, methadone makes yr teeth fall out. Different drugs have different effects, even though Peter replied that he never takes any of that neurochemical stuff seriously. Ibogaine was developed by the druggies themselves as an act of self-determination.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.

More appropriate was his comparison of ibogaine to exorcism. If it really is possible to replicate the physical processes in the brain induced by exorcism, what should be appropriate that it be controlled by drug users’ movements instead of Jesuits?

Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).

So like the Marxists, Cohen says that things have to become really terrible so that the system is overthrown–before they can become better– no matter that the suffering that is going on right at this movement is totally unnecessary. The important thing is that his position be vindicated.

I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

So now I’m a DEA agent! I see Cohen, Stanton Peele, Ernie Drucker and so-on as blackening our reputation so they can preserve their professional monopoly on the big bux from George Soros and Peter B. Lewis while we get squat to put on the forum at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. BTW, Patrick told me Allan Clear tried to get Peele to come to New Orleans, but he wanted too much money. All our people show up for free. But for Stanton Peele, it’s just his career.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

I dunno. The straight left (ACT UP was taken over by Workers’ World) isn’t doing as well right now as we are. Lynn Stewart was just convicted for helping blind Sheik communicate with his followers in Egypt; Deborah Mash just resumed FDA-approved trials of Ibogaine. Lemme see– Us forcing to system to legalize ANY psychedelic drug (even one as weird as ibogaine) doesn’t sound defeatist to me. Not compared to going to prison.

But then I was never big on the heroin solution anyway.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Vector Vector wrote:
I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Wrong! After he told me neurochemistry is irrelevant, and I said facts are stubborn things, I patted him on the back and said (in my best Hail Fellow Well-met voice) “Admit it, Peter, you support prohibition of Ibogaine!” And he does, because he seeks to ban it from discussion at  legalization forums, to cast this pall over it so as to hamstring any movement to legalize it in the U.S. (the onlybig country where it’s illegal, and one pushing to prohibit everywhere else, as was just done in Denmark because Indra was sending it directly into the U.S.)

Sara wrote:
Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

Actually I think he’s bad for legalization. He is, for instance, also against  the Dutch separation of marijuana and hard drugs, because he said so when I tried to ask him where Dutch gov’t fact sheets originated describing the decline of heroin use after the adoption of the current system. If you can’t even tolerate personal use amounts of grass, forget about personal use amounts of everything else. What he seems to  be for is market anarchy without the social benefit of regulation–which never will help you sell any liberalization of the drug situation to the politicians. Or as I said to Donald Grove, does that mean that wherever marijuana and hashish are present, cocaine and heroin must be allowed also? Or that you hand over control of the marijuana market to people who will use the money to feel their habits, while turning on all their customers to smack?

Howard wrote:
I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all process and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

The reason Howard never saw it was that it never happened. I think he may have actually walking down the hall with us when I was talking to Peter, so he wouldn’t have seen any yelling, because there was none.

I admit being peeved that Peter dodged any actual debate. His rap would have focused my presentation on Ibogaine since 1990, which would have shortened it at least 40%.

Steve Anker wrote:
Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate for a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be honored to be there while you go through it.

I was ready to do it in November, but my dose was hijacked by a relapsing junkie. It always goes that way.  I certainly don’t want the $4,000 operation. But I won’t be able to do it in the next 9 days, not unless you want to pay for some plane fares, Steve.

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Nick, I am not sure I understand you.
You say

” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Please explain.

Nick is actually atypical on the list, in backing the social “encouragement” of people to quit. Cohen, on the other hand, is a utopian anarchist. Myself, I’m a marijuana bolshevik, advocating that all soft drugs scenes separate themselves from hard drugs by pushing ibogaine.

Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes cutting the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical pain people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.
I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!
ciao
pc

Why not ibogaine?

Hi Peter,

I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under the influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly. Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting the rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.

Not exactly harm reduction.

For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to access to psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively low level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to say that people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as opiates, whenever they want without regard for the highly physically addictive nature of these drugs.

In the U.S., all that is allowed is methadone, buprenorphin, and SSRI’s. No pot, no psychedelics, except peyote for Native Americans. People who want to change this are every bit as utopian as the 12 step fascists and the utopian libertarians, you understand. We just want a different outcome.

Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you make your position more clear? You have something against this substance?

About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are great for as long as needed.

Regards

Nick

His stance on Ibogaine is simple: it has always threatened to take over the legalization agenda, and to make all his favorite arguments obsolete. Why– he might actually have to read up on neurochemistry. I remember one ibo forum at the Lindesmith Center: Ethan Nadelmann literally had to be told by everyone in the room that they wanted to continue the presentation on neuro-chem when he tried to stop it because he didn’t understand it and he was getting bored. They’re all the same.

Randy wrote:
I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to. It just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize Methadone, and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not to mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions. That’s just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting around thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and don’t know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a choice. A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I looked hard, very hard. If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine then it just can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to interrupt their addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer they have to suffer needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my treatment I would have done it just for the addiction interruption aspects of Ibogaine, but man those trails were cool and the Holideck was incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of Ibogaine. I’m afraid that Steve is right.      Randy

I guess the ones who want out will just have to go on being cannon fodder in Peter’s war of ideas. Too bad real people suffer and die. But for these academics, it’s a living.

Cures not Wars has a simple three part program:

1) Turn control of all aspects of drugs policy including law enforcement over to ibogaine proponents. The other people had their chance, and they muffed it.

2) National Service (a draft) for all opponents of ibogaine and cannabis, in a kind of a cross between the peace corps and the civilian conservation corps.

3) Focus the effort on reversing global warming through water reclamation projects, replacing trees with hemp, etc. Tax every entity that had cannabis prohibition to pay for it.

Marijuana bolshevism.

Dana/cnw

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts
Date: February 10, 2005 at 5:19:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From the article below:

It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts could be
induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway signs
erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It isn’t like
that.<

I wish it were just the “US view” I had to worry about.
But that said, go Ottawa!

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Tim Meehan” <fc697@ncf.ca>
To: <cmap@mapinc.org>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <editor@mapinc.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:58 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] Canada: It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts

Source: Globe and Mail (Canada)
Contact: letters@globeandmail.ca
Website: http://www.globeandmail.ca/
Forum: http://forums.theglobeandmail.com/
Copyright: 2005, The Globe and Mail Company
Pubdate: February 9, 2005
Author: Dr. Gabor Maté

It’s no fix, but it’s the best we can do for addicts

The official U.S. response to the free heroin trial about to begin in Vancouver
is predictably negative. A spokesman for John Walters, director of the White
House Office of National Drug Control Policy, calls it “an inhumane medical
experiment.”

“I would bet any amount of money the U.S. has exerted extreme pressure on Canada
to abort this trial,” Alex Wodak, a prominent Australian addictions researcher,
has said. He should know: U.S. opposition helped to abort a heroin trial in his
country. It is to Ottawa’s credit that Canada has resisted similar pressure from
the Bush administration, whose addictions policies owe more to narrow moralism
than to science, compassion or insight.

And Canada must withstand more U.S. displeasure if the results of the Vancouver
experiment points to our introducing heroin by prescription as part of our
addictions treatment armamentarium.

The Vancouver trial, known as the NAOMI project (North American Opiate
Medications Initiative), will compare the risks and benefits of heroin with
those of the synthetic opiate methadone. Similar studies in Switzerland and the
Netherlands showed reduced criminal activity, increased employability, a better
likelihood of remaining in treatment — and, in some cases, of quitting narcotic
use altogether.

I’m a physician working with an addict population in Vancouver’s Downtown
Eastside, just half a block from the NAOMI site. I don’t expect glowing outcomes
in terms of addicts becoming employable or abstinent. Most of the clients in our
area are too demoralized, too dependent on other drugs such as cocaine and,
above all, too lacking in resources to make such radical changes. What is
realistic is to look forward to less crime, better health measures such as
reduced hospitalization rates, and closer compliance with treatment. Even such
modest goals, if achieved, would be a vast improvement in the lot of many
hard-core drug addicts.

It would be simpler if the naive U.S. view were accurate, and addicts could be
induced or educated into achieving abstinence, if — like the highway signs
erected by the Reagan administration–people could “just say no.” It isn’t like
that. The men and women I work with have had every possible negative consequence
visited on them. They’ve lost their jobs, their homes, their spouses, their
children and their teeth; they’ve been jailed and beaten; they’ve suffered HIV
infection and hepatitis and infections of the heart valves and multiple
pneumonias and abscesses and sores of every sort. They will not, until something
spontaneously transforms their perspective on life, abandon their compulsion to
use drugs. The question is only this: How shall we, as a society, respond to
their predicament? With unenforceable laws? With moral preaching? With medical
practices that don’t embrace the full range of options?

Abstinence is a realistic goal for some drug addicts, but, among the downtown
hard core, only an infinitesimal few. Rehabilitation offers hope for many more,
but, among my patients, that’s still only a minority. In part, that is due to
their being mired in addictive cycles and, in part, due to the sheer lack of
adequate facilities, halfway homes and well-trained staff. This society lacks
the political vision and will to establish and fund the wide-ranging, gradual,
step-wise programs most addicts need to escape their habits.

What remains is the harm-reduction model. It’s designed not to change anyone but
to reduce the noxious effects of abusive childhoods, personal dysfunction,
irrational drug laws, social neglect and a lifetime of bad choices. For some,
only the provision of prescribed heroin can break the cycle of crime and life in
the streets.

This week, I visited one of my patients, hospitalized with abscesses throughout
his body and bacterial invasion of his bloodstream. This man once lay down on a
railway track, in a drug haze, and woke with a shattered hip and an amputated
arm. I asked him why all this wasn’t enough to make him give up drugs. “I spend
my whole day,” he said, “begging and scrimping and lying for 40 bucks to get a
hit. And that gives me relief from pain for maybe five or 10 minutes and it
gives me a freedom I can’t describe. And that five minutes is worth it.” I
debated with him the merits of such “freedom.” But as a doctor, I can try to
reduce his suffering. That, regardless of what winds blow from Washington, is
what the NAOMI project is about.

Gabor Maté, a Vancouver physician, is working on his next book, I Need A Fix:
Life in a Culture of Addiction.

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From: Sapphirestardus@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cancellation
Date: February 10, 2005 at 5:06:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Would you please renove my name from the mailing list. Thank you.
Julian

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Live Audio Web Chat With Sasha and Ann Shulgin
Date: February 10, 2005 at 4:52:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Ethan Nadelmann, DPAlliance [mailto:alerts@actioncenter.drugpolicy.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:03 AM
To: blackhd@optonline.net
Subject: Live Audio Web Chat With Sasha and Ann Shulgin

February 10, 2005manage my subscription | text version

Please Join Me for a Web Chat with Psychedelics Researchers Dr. Sasha Shulgin and Ann Shulgin

Dear Kevin,
I am pleased to invite you to a live audio web chat on Tuesday, February 22 at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST with myself, Dr. Sasha Shulgin, the noted psychedelic chemist and pharmacologist, and his wife Ann Shulgin, the beloved writer and therapist. Dr. Shulgin, a former Dow research chemist, is well known for his creation and discovery of new psychoactive chemicals and for his promotion in the late 1970s and early 1980s of the use of MDMA in psychotherapy. Sasha and Ann Shulgin together authored and published the books PIHKAL: A Chemical Love Story and TIHKAL: The Continuation, detailing the synthesis of and their personal experience with hundreds of psychedelics.
The Shulgins will be online to address your questions on a range of topics from the “war on drugs” to the therapeutic use of MDMA. Please email questions@drugpolicy.org before February 22 to submit questions, and don’t forget to bookmark the chat address!
When: Tuesday, February 22, 2005
3 PM PST / 6 PM EST
Where: http://www.drugpolicy.org/events/shulginchat
Read on for further information about the Shulgins and myself:
Sasha Shulgin studied Chemistry at Harvard University and Biochemistry and Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco. He has authored over 200 research papers published in peer reviewed scientific journals, been awarded some 20 patents and written four books. Sasha has been studying the chemistry and effects of psychedelics for over 30 years. He was recently featured in the New York Times Magazine, which described him “not as a scientist in the modern sense but as a different type — what Aldous Huxley, the novelist turned psychedelic philosopher, once described as a ‘naturalist of the mind.'”
Ann Shulgin is a therapist who conducted psychedelic therapy before 1985, when MDMA was effectively made illegal when it was reclassified as a Schedule I drug. Ann is a researcher and spokesperson for the beneficial use of psychedelics, including MDMA, in a therapeutic setting. The Shulgins travel and speak extensively on the topic of psychedelics.
I am the founder and executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, the leading organization in the United States promoting alternatives to the “war on drugs.” I’ve spent many wonderful hours with Sasha and Ann over the years. It will be a real pleasure to have you join our conversation.
To submit a question now, please use the following email address: questions@drugpolicy.org .
I encourage you to pass along word about the chat to other people you know who might be interested, and look forward to seeing you online on the 22nd!
Sincerely,

To Contact or Make a Donation by Mail to the Drug Policy Alliance:
Drug Policy Alliance
70 West 36th Street, 16th Floor
New York, NY 10018

Get a PDF copy of the Donation Form. For subscription problems please contact Jeanette Irwin, Director, Internet Communications jirwin@drugpolicy.org, 202.216.0035

DrugPolicy.org | Take Action | Donate | Privacy Policy

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ototototototototot NOt “mE”
Date: February 10, 2005 at 4:48:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com


How could we be wrong, I done struggled my whole
lifetime.

Times is Ruff
And it’s hard to survive
Its a struggle on the Streets
You got to Fight to Stay Alive
Find my self going in Cirlces Like the chamber on a
.38
Instead of doin’ the same thing every day, I’m taking
chances for a big Cake
No work no Pay.
Shhh, still lucky I can stay.
Still Got to Find a Better Way
‘Cause a Dark Cloud could come any day.

So Mighty Lord I Pray and Ask you to Pray for me
Help me Cross these Lines…gotta go where gotta be.
Have Faith and Patience.
‘Cause nothing comes Instantly
Through Our Rights and Wrongs, Thick and Thin
I’ve done seen the Ball thrown against the Wind

Battle Jaws of Death
Escape the Claws of The Pen

I know we’re born in Sin, Stuck in this Story we’re in
Goin’ through Different Triles and Tribulations, and
havin’ to take these Ghetto Medications

Stress.  I’m going Through It.  I’m trying to confess.
I’m hoping the LOrd Bless Before I’m put to Rest.

HOw could we be wrong?  We done Struggled Our whole
lifetime, that upbringin’ Slug Slingin’ n’ Gettin’
High So …Come by  HOw could we… How could we be
wrong?

Thank God for my FAmily, who was there for me.  When I
was Right or Wrong they made sure I STayed Strong when
the Lights weren’t on.
You know Life Goes On.

___________________________________________________________
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 10, 2005 at 4:12:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Birds Singing especially is Good.  Birdseed and
Bucket of Water is a Good investment after Ibo. For
me it is important to take some time After the Session
to
Sit/Walk and Listen in a Good Spot.  For me that
Good
Spot are Some Cliffs at a Lake near here.  Water
Signs
have been a theme that …nevermind.

Hey J.,

I bought two CDs- birds, water sounds- after my Ibo
session that really help calm me down when I feel
shitty/tense.  The Solitudes collection has CDs with
only nature sounds, no music.  I highly recommend them
to anyone looking to relax.

J.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 10, 2005 at 3:55:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
I burned incense the first time around, but found
the
smoke started to bother me, as my nose was very
sensitive while on Ibo.  For my second treatment, my
provider used aromatherapy oils mixed with water, and
then gently heated over a tea candle.  It was very
nice, but only in small doses.

Hi All,

My Smell was way sensitive too.  I did the poor mans
aromatherapy by having someone keep a pot of boiling
tea on the stove.  The herbs used in the “tea” seem to
be a personal choice.  It seems to ‘Clear’ the air a
bit or whatever.

Another thing I notice is my Listening to my
enviroment and little Subtle needs the enviroment
might have (sounds a little weird but oh well).   I
find, after-Ibo when walking Dog or whatever, I notice
the Sounds to the point of feeling connected the Sound
Makers.  Like this Subtle Communication, not like
Words, more like a general Tone, like when I watch the
Spanish Channel.

Birds Singing especially is Good.  Birdseed and Bucket
of Water is a Good investment after Ibo. For me it is
important to take some time After the Session to
Sit/Walk and Listen in a Good Spot.  For me that Good
Spot are Some Cliffs at a Lake near here.  Water Signs
have been a theme that …nevermind.

The constant Evolution of what is revealed never
ceases to Amaze me.

Cheers,
Jason

PS I still think my Senator is the Cheepest post Ibo
Therapist 😉

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 10, 2005 at 3:45:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis,

no, it wasn’t Carmina…it was a simple piece with
just percussion instruments.  It might be Musica
Poetica, but I’m not sure…It was the main theme to
the movie Badlands, with Sissy Spacek and Martin
Sheen.

Julie

__________________________________
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All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 10, 2005 at 3:36:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Julie !
Carmina Burana by Carl Orff ? I use to drive my moher nuts with this music
!!
I love this piece 🙂
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting

Hi Francis,

During my treatment, I found the music of Vangelis (he
composed the score for Blade Runner) to be very
comforting and moving. It was spacey yet positive, and
intensified the astral space travel visions I had.

For the come-down, more classical-type pieces seemed
to work very well.  I had a very intense memory of a
childhood experience while listening to a piece by
Orff (forget the name) that was used in that movie
Badlands, and also in True Romance.

I burned incense the first time around, but found the
smoke started to bother me, as my nose was very
sensitive while on Ibo.  For my second treatment, my
provider used aromatherapy oils mixed with water, and
then gently heated over a tea candle.  It was very
nice, but only in small doses.

Hope you’re well, Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 10, 2005 at 1:45:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis,

During my treatment, I found the music of Vangelis (he
composed the score for Blade Runner) to be very
comforting and moving. It was spacey yet positive, and
intensified the astral space travel visions I had.

For the come-down, more classical-type pieces seemed
to work very well.  I had a very intense memory of a
childhood experience while listening to a piece by
Orff (forget the name) that was used in that movie
Badlands, and also in True Romance.

I burned incense the first time around, but found the
smoke started to bother me, as my nose was very
sensitive while on Ibo.  For my second treatment, my
provider used aromatherapy oils mixed with water, and
then gently heated over a tea candle.  It was very
nice, but only in small doses.

Hope you’re well, Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 10, 2005 at 1:14:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Lee !
How are you doing ?!

You can find a selection of compilation of Classical pieces already studied for special relaxation. They use it for Dr. Losanov method of accelered learning.Generaly is Bach and Vivaldi. The music, throught the unique  constuction and ryhtm of Barocco  control the heart and breathing rythm
The colors of the setting are important too. I will go with a light green or light pink,  check studies in Chromotherapy.
A couple of table fountains, the favorite perfum of the patient. and his favorite photos or image, tantra ect… Some nice cut flowers.
I will finish the all experience with  the Ave Maria of  Franz Shubert, in Musicotherapy is most of the time the piece they finish their intervention with
Ion negative generator a plus 🙂

Francis
God Bless

Anitdote
Oxigen
Reanimation kit
Klenex
Bucket
A Porshe, and a  4*4  ready , in the garage.
A plus. 🙂

—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting

Hi randy,
I like what you wrote about cleansing with sage – going to look into that. Do you think that helps the vibrational levels in the surrounding atmosphere to be more conducive to the presence of spiritual entites? I noticed in a session that the spirit entities did not like the cuban music I was playing. Yet they seemed cool with a gentle pensive Vivaldi piece I had on constant play. I like to have some sound or other, like rainforest is really good, as it helps the mind not to get too logical imo. Having said that with a post like this I should probably question my sanity before my logic? 🙂
Lee

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
>I even kept a plant next to me for company.

hey Randy, I think that is a Good way. What kind of
Plant was it?
Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: bm <bmali1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Antidepressant Foods
Date: February 10, 2005 at 12:38:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

here is a link to some research in animals about food
which help deal with depresion . many of these food
items have been talked about in health/ food community
for some time .
http://www.forbes.com/home/health/2005/02/10/cx_mh_0210health_ls.html

=====
” lord , make me chaste , but not yet ” St.Augstine of Hippo
Very bad isn’t dead (“Things can get worse.”)–Haitian Proverbs
“A truth that’s told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.” William Blake.

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [ibogaine] Junky Blues
Date: February 10, 2005 at 11:55:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 7/17/2004 5:50:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com writes:
I really can’t remember that far back but I would guess that my first thought as the Dr. held me by my ankles and smacked me on the ass, I took one look around that hospital operating room and thought,”wonder where they keep the morphine.’     Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NEEDED 2 PAGE IBOGAINE REVIEW ARTICLE
Date: February 10, 2005 at 11:22:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick,

I believe it is to be directed to a NY State Assemblyperson.

However, Dana can provide more specific information.

Howard

In a message dated 2/10/05 8:50:48 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Hi Howard,

Does the proposed doc have a specific target group or audience?

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 09 February 2005 03:01
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] NEEDED 2 PAGE IBOGAINE REVIEW ARTICLE

This is an open solicitation for a two-page review of current
information on
ibogaine for use in support of proposed legislation to promote
ibogaine and
iboga alkaloid/congener development.

The review can be posted to the list or sent to me directly.  It should

include regulatory status, mechanisms of action, latest science
including anti-HIV
activity.

This will be an important document and can be edited via the list
or in other
hands.

Howard

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Provider’s Charter- leaving peeps in hotels
Date: February 10, 2005 at 10:44:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick and Lee,

I am not a provider, nor do I think I ever will be,
but the idea of leaving someone in a hotel for the
meds/ambulance to pick up is pretty harsh.  I
understand the political situation in the States, and
it is most unfortunate; I guess in the US this would
seem to be the best option.

But elsewhere in the world, where Ibogaine is not
illegal, I feel it should be the provider’s
responsibility to remain with the patient until the
paramedics arrive, give them the lowdown, and then
take their leave- provided the patient has signed some
form of agreement stating that they understand the
potential risks involved with Ibo treatment and waive
the facilitator in the event of accidental
injury/death.
To do otherwise seems very irresponsible and cruel to
me.

Julie

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Provider’s Charter
Date: February 10, 2005 at 9:19:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 09 February 2005 16:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Provider’s Charter

Hi Nick,

Thanks for responding to my posts.

I would be very happy to coordinate the work on a Provider’s Charter if people who are out there providing can lend their support by contacting me directly (off list) with their ideas/comments for inclusion. I can collate and draw up a list of all the ideas and send the list back out for comment – evaluation to all who have contacted me. When something is agreed upon I can then post it to the list for general discussion. Anyone out there, providing or not, who has something to add please post.

Hi Lee,

I think this is a great project. I haven’t done so many treatments, and a while ago, but I am happy to put in my tuppence worth.

A few ideas:

1. Necessary tests and what one is looking for in the results – already covered I know by Howards work but I wonder if we can state within a Charter what are acceptable safe test results and what is seriously borderline? At what point does the treatment fall outside what would be considered acceptable for those adhering to a Charter? Can the client be given a risk analysis based on the tests etc

Sounds good. I can’t answer this personally, but it sounds like valuable info to get.

2. Optional tests – mental health etc. What real value if any do these offer? Do they impact on the client’s safety? How do they help?

I would like to interview prospective clients a few times first, make sure I can get a feel on where they are, and that ibogaine is really, to the best of my knowledge, the best option they could be taking. For me, if someone is prepared to come to a couple of meetings, or communicate by phone or email over a period, it shows me for a start that they’ve got a good level of maturity, which I think is best for a successful treatment. Explaining dangers and seeing how they react is good – difficult to quantify though. Seeing how they react to the idea of rehab or integrating rehab into an overall programme also good. This stuff is more personal to me, don’t know if it fits to a standard.

Generally some form of “Fully Informed Consent” document which the client signs is a good idea and it would be useful to have something standardised. I….[name]………have had the following about ibogaine treatment explained to me..[there’s a risk of death, etc]……and I hereby confirm that I have understood and wish to proceed. Legally, if someone died, it’s weak, but would be still be very useful in an inquest situation, imo.

3. A minimal protocol for treatment, i.e, what is the absolute basic acceptance level and what margin or risk does following that basic level leave? What is definite exclusion criteria?

4. Pre-Session preparation. Establishing what are safe ranges in blood pressure and pulse for a given individual and what is then acceptable during the session. Is a test dose mandatory? Given that providers are working with extract and the HCL, what constitues a test dose of either and what is the minimum time prior to a session it should be given? Also, should a client be made aware of set and setting issues before etc. Fasting/Abstinence.

5. Session dangers: dying on ones vomit, opiates/pulse drop.

Constant supervision throughout would be a good idea as a standard, where possible. 5 years ago a guy in London died 38 hours after ingestion which was phenomenally unfortunate but shows it can happen. He drowned on his vomit after first post-ibo meal.

6. Post session dangers: dehydration/driving.

6. What is considered basic first aid training and should the provider bi-annually or tri-annually undergo basic first aid training? What is basic equipment?

7. What type of medical backup services are acceptable? What kind of hospitalization treatment is prefered? What can be administered at the scene and what requires emergency service help?

For US treatment providers, and others living where ibogaine is scheduled, it might be handy to have some sort of notice one could put with someone if you take the option of ringing the ambulance and leaving, detailing dose levels, timings and any medical figures you may have.

That’s all I can think of. good luck with the project.

Love

Nick

8. What agreements should be signed by both parties etc re: treatment?

9. What is the role of the provider?

11. Post-Session information. Treatment options.

12. Perhaps include optional sections.

13. etc etc.

I would be grateful if interested providers would contact me off list and indicate if they have ideas/suggestions to be made part of a Providers Charter. You can also lend your support with a thumbs up on the list here to get others onboard.

I think the next stage after the Charter can be some form of laymans risk analysis vis a vis the different issues etc. including the realistic risk differences between hospital treatment and a lay man’s treatment. I would like to see the information available in terms understandable to the layman who has no wish to become a medical doctor to establish the level of risk involved. Basically I am also fighting to keep ibogaine (eboga) on the streets (for the non-addict also) by establishing a respected set of guidelines as opposed to hospital treatments.

Just throwing out ideas and not wanting to reinvent the wheel as such (as I know a lot of good info is already out there) but it would be great to pull some of this together at a Provider community level with input from everyone. The idea is not to constrain what is already working perfectly well but to establish minimum guidelines which one can point to and say: I follow that protocol with the following added…..

?

Lee
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] NEEDED 2 PAGE IBOGAINE REVIEW ARTICLE
Date: February 10, 2005 at 8:49:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Does the proposed doc have a specific target group or audience?

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 09 February 2005 03:01
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] NEEDED 2 PAGE IBOGAINE REVIEW ARTICLE

This is an open solicitation for a two-page review of current
information on
ibogaine for use in support of proposed legislation to promote
ibogaine and
iboga alkaloid/congener development.

The review can be posted to the list or sent to me directly.  It should
include regulatory status, mechanisms of action, latest science
including anti-HIV
activity.

This will be an important document and can be edited via the list
or in other
hands.

Howard

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 10, 2005 at 8:47:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi randy,
I like what you wrote about cleansing with sage – going to look into that. Do you think that helps the vibrational levels in the surrounding atmosphere to be more conducive to the presence of spiritual entites? I noticed in a session that the spirit entities did not like the cuban music I was playing. Yet they seemed cool with a gentle pensive Vivaldi piece I had on constant play. I like to have some sound or other, like rainforest is really good, as it helps the mind not to get too logical imo. Having said that with a post like this I should probably question my sanity before my logic? 🙂
Lee

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
>I even kept a plant next to me for company.

hey Randy, I think that is a Good way. What kind of
Plant was it?
Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available
Date: February 10, 2005 at 3:26:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LMAO
Excellent, I love it!!!!!!
(Images of person suddenly taking off into space with friends looking on in
complete disbelief as you explode amongst the stars…….)

—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 9:57 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available

I now have Custom Ibo Voodoo Dolls (IVD) with little
buckets beside them available.

If you wish, at the beginning of your session, I can
light a candle and put your IVD in and out of Water to
help prevent any hydration issues your session.

If you start to feel anxious during your session, let
me know.  I, Dr. Pookie can give your IVD 4 Xanex Bars
and Shake my Special Rattle around the computer
monitor.  I can do this for any sleep issues
afterwards.

If nearing the end of Visions and still not seen any
?aliens?, let me know.  I can tie your IVD to a
firecracker Rocket after writing EGO on the forehead
with Rosemary Oil.  This will (in a loving way) blast
your IVD into space and explode the EGO possessed IVD.
It explodes Christmasy feelings like US Bombs.

After the session, if any withdrawal symptoms persist,
I can inject some heroin (the special kind that
doesn?t ?cause Sickness) into your IVD if needed.
Mayby put your withdrawal under pillow.

Or I can take your IVD to a 12 Step meeting.  ?Umm no
thanks, I just need the white chip for my Ibo Voodoo
Doll, thanks though.?

[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 – Release Date: 02/03/2005


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 – Release Date: 02/03/2005

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 10, 2005 at 3:17:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I;’m not too concerned…….I’ve only ever had symptoms once and that was probably just after contracting it.  I’ve only ever used Milk Thistle and related herbs, I didn’t like the sound of interferon (aint nobody interferon with MY liver like that LOL)  and a biopsy gives me the shits!! If an organ is sick, why the hell would ya wanna poke a bluddy great needle into it??????? Cheesh!!
Anyway, hope you treatments have worked excellently for you….
Cheers for the info
Kirk
From: Allison Senepart [mailto:paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz] 
Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 12:11 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

Apparently blood tests for liver counts are not all that reliable.  The most accurate test is a biopsy that will give you a genotype of Hep C and the level of inflammation and fibrosis in the liver.  There is a PCR test  to detect a positive or neg to the virus in the body but they only do it during and after treatment to see if the virus has been eradicated.  I’m just finishing a 6 month interferon & ribaviron course and fingers crossed for good results.  Had one PCR test at 4 months that was negative and am hoping future results will be clear.  I found a site called Janis and friends Hep C support at  http://janis7hepc.com/ good and there are some others although the medication & treatment is different to us here in NZ.  All a question of funding and cost.  Also there is a good Aussie site but can’t remember the link just at the moment.  Probably have the Alzheimer problem too.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 11:15:23 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

How accurate are liver tests?  I know you can get the liver count done, showing what state it is in, but the Hep C testing isn’t too good yet is it?  “They” say they can do a test that shows whether you’ve cleared the virus…..which to me is misleading because as far as I know you’ll always have the virus in one form or another……inactive or active.
Anyone more knowledgeable on this than moi???
Thanks
KirstyoHohowd.,d.gkds;gsa;

–
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 – Release Date: 02/03/2005

–
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 – Release Date: 02/03/2005

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Set and Setting
Date: February 9, 2005 at 10:46:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
I even kept a plant next to me for company.

hey Randy, I think that is a Good way.  What kind of
Plant  was it?
Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] conference visit
Date: February 9, 2005 at 8:10:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 5, 2005, at 3:40 AM, ekki wrote:

i´m looking for a place to sleep in nyc 18-22th feb.
i just need a blanket, can maintain myself and will vanish to kentucky afterwards.
any offer will be appreciated, please contact me offlist.
-ekki

Anyone who really needs a place to stay for the forum can stay on the ground floor or 9 Bleecker, as long as they agree to vanish afterwards. No charge, and we just replaced the hot water heater.

Dana/cnw

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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Updated Update to the Conference Update
Date: February 9, 2005 at 7:08:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/News/2005COSM.html

When another update is available; the updated update will be updated, again.  Again.  Again.

Stay tuned for further UpdateS

PatricK

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mini-session Guidelines (Low Dose)
Date: February 9, 2005 at 6:59:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/9/2005 5:28:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk writes:
The Set & Setting Section in my opinion should be
expanded more.  Set & Setting, to me, can make or
break the session.
Perhaps a Link(s) to more indepth work (so
someone new can have the option of understanding it’s
importance),  or not.

“reach out for your notebook and pen and write it
down.”
I like: ‘take note of it in the form that is best.’

“For this reason the first time someone takes eboga
they should be prepared for all possibilities and have
someone responsible taking care of them.”
A link to a source that defines what a responsible
someone taking care of them is I think would be
appropriate
Jason, that is some of the best advice I have seen here. My provider told me the same thing, and I don’t think he could have done a better job at making me feel at ease. I did it in my camper with candles burning the whole time. He burned sage at the start of my treatment and talked to me about the fear I had and everything went just like he said it would. I was on Methadone and It took 48 hours of pretty hard work, being at home and hearing the guinea fowl in the back ground during the day helped to ease the strain a little. I can’t imagine doing it in St. Kitts being a whole lot more therapeutic than what I experienced at home. My provider knew when to leave me alone, and when to check on me, right on time. I never felt out of control other than puking. Couldn’t do much about that, but it was worth it. I even kept a plant next to me for company. It looked pretty cool when the Ibo kicked in. I think the setting is as important as the person giving the treatment. Both are very important. I feel very grateful to have found the guy that I did and for having a mother cool enough to back me on the treatment. It seemed perfect to me. ( I could have done without the yak fest, I moved around too much). Trip and learn.     “Free Your Mind and Your Ass Will Follow”…..George Clinton          Randy

From: Pipetman9@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson with the Iboga???
Date: February 9, 2005 at 6:48:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry to see there is some misunderstanding of my statement, I wanted to say
1.  that Iboga might in theory be a candidate to test to treat (only) symptoms e.g. like amantadine which is an antiparkinson drug and has in common with ibo that it is an NMDA blocker. Or like Extasy which treats the so called off phenomenon of Parkinson.
2. that there are much better alternative treatments of Parkinson (most not “do it yourself” methods), so that there is not much reason to think about Ibo except for those interested in the academic hobby of pharmacology. Some antiparkinson drugs are very interesting indeed e.g. Trihexylphenidyl a prescription drug against parkinson is also a drug of abuse, some  like it.

If you look for a “do it yourself” alternative treatment of Parkinson your options are of course limited, things like Q10 and ENADA etc.

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2004/01/05/coenzyme_q10_parkinsons_disease.htm

http://www.ceri.com/parkpage.htm

http://faculty.washington.edu/~ely/

I would be know that treatment of Parkinson by Ibogain. My mother is suffering from Parkinson. So would you tell me how could I help her with Iboga.

Best Regards
FakePlacebo

i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
uptake afaik.

there is something called Parkinson syndrome (e.g. as result of adverse reaction of intoxication by neuroleptics), this condition is often reversible. “Real” Parkinson means that lets say about 70% of the cells in a brain region called substancia nigra already died down or went into a state of metabolic dormancy when the disease is diagnosed, this is not so easy to repair. Parkinson is basically a disorder of oxidative and free radical cell and mitochondrial damage of certain brain regions that use Dopamine. Conventional drugs that treat Parkinson seem only to treat the symptoms not the cause. Selegiline is a Parkinson drug (that has effects that cant be fully explained by its MAO inhibiting ability), it is a structural relative of phenylethylamine, Bromocryptine a structural relative of the ergot alkaloids also is an antiparkinson drug. Ibogaine is relative to these molecules.
Alternative medicine that treats the cause of Parkinson is ignored by established medicine like Ibogaine is ignored by the establishment. All the ignored molecules have in common that they are not patentable (so called orphan drugs) which means they would make no money.

regards; Juergen

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mini-session Guidelines (Low Dose)
Date: February 9, 2005 at 5:27:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Sorry, didn’t realise that was a problem – just
acknowledging :-).

*No problem.

BTW your suggestions came to the eboga list.
Lee

Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:51:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject:Re: [eboga] Mini-Sessions Page on Site

—>*To: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk <——

http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html
“a low dose session of 6mg and 10% less for a woman”
/kg

“you can drink a few drops here and there in the hours
leading up to the session as it acts to quench the
thirst and prevent uncomfortableness.”

I think lots of water is best considering possible
hydration issues, especially if they haven’t done it
before and their body’s reaction is unknown.

I find with the extract that water takes some of the
“burn” away when the cap breaks open, I compair it to
a gel cap of cayene red pepper.

I like the way this is:
“At the time of ingestion I recommend drinking a full
glass or two of liquid to help the dissolving of the
eboga/ibogaine.”

Re: Ibogaine is best for Low dose sessions.
Maybe.
I wouldn’t call extract unpredictable.    Working with
different types of extract would make it unpredictable
though.  But I don’t think it’s so unpredictable that
it can’t be worked with.  I do think the point about
HCL having a more “standardized” dosing amount
structure is a very valid one.  Although, I feel, it
still should be kept in mind that each person will
feel different levels of intensity, and reactions to
the level and less or more may be required depending
on what the person dosing has as the objective of the
session.

“All the physical effects are the same (except less)”
…I am not as certain about that…

The Set & Setting Section in my opinion should be
expanded more.  Set & Setting, to me, can make or
break the session.
Perhaps a Link(s) to more indepth work (so
someone new can have the option of understanding it’s
importance),  or not.

“reach out for your notebook and pen and write it
down.”
I like: ‘take note of it in the form that is best.’

“For this reason the first time someone takes eboga
they should be prepared for all possibilities and have
someone responsible taking care of them.”
A link to a source that defines what a responsible
someone taking care of them is I think would be
appropriate.

I wouldn’t have commented at all, but you asked for
feedback.    This one’s free but next time I have to
charge you :^)
Cheers,
-J

(what about even lower doses then 6kg/mg?,,,similar
to a weekly  or bi-weekly or monthly spirit
medicine/anti-depressent)

— Lee Albert <> wrote:
Hi guys,

Just posted this page on mini-sessions:

http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html

Any feedback or sugfgestions appreciated.

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of
eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for
members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

___________________________________________________________
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mini-session Guidelines (Low Dose)
Date: February 9, 2005 at 4:43:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jason,
Sorry, didn’t realise that was a problem – just acknowledging :-).
BTW your suggestions came to the eboga list.
Lee

knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Lee,
I think you are a Good person, but please don’t do
this. I sent that in private for a reason. Thank
you.
-J
— Lee Albert wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> Just to let you know I posted a page on
> mini-sessions (low dose) guidelines with the help of
> some useful feedback from jason (knowone knowhere):
>
> http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html
>
>
> Lee
>
>
> Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of
> eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
>
> www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
> Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for
> members of the media / librarians etc:
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Revised Forum Agenda for Feb 20, 21
Date: February 9, 2005 at 4:30:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine
Forum
February 20–21
(Sunday–Monday)

Alex Grey’s Gallery
Chapel of Sacred Mirrors
540 West 27th Street
Fourth Floor
Registration: $20 per day
212-677-4899

Sunday, February 20, 2005;
Noon to 7 pm

12:00 noon–12:45 pm Registration; Introductory remarks: Rommel Washington, Benu Project.

12:45 pm–3:15 pm
Ibogaine and the Search for Lost Sacraments. Moderated by Alex Grey,  with Dana Beal, author, The Ibogaine Story, Carl Ruck, PhD, author, The Apples of Apollo, Bwiti Nganga Awolowo Johnson,
sociologist, Rev. Ron Sala, Unitarian, Rob Gordon, Cures Not Wars.
Discussion

3:15 pm–3:45 pm Break

3:45 pm–5:45 pm Hands-on Ibogaine Treatment: Tips and Pointers with Howard Lotsof, Patrick Kroupa, Dimitri Mugianis, Adam Nodelman, Chris Laurance and Andrea Aplementos

5:45 pm–7:00 pm
Screening of Ibogaine: Rite of Passage
with Ben De Loenen

Monday, February 21, 2005;
10 am to 7 pm

10:00 am–10:30 am
Registration;
Introductory Remarks:
H.S. Lotsof

10:30 am–11:30 am
New Findings: Dopamine, Craving, and the Ibogaine Effect. Carl Anderson, PhD

11:30 am–1:15 pm
Medical Ibogaine Therapy
Jeffrey Kamlet, MD, with intro by Patrick Kroupa.

1:15 pm–1:45 pm Break

1:45 pm–3:15 pm Scientific Panel: Assessing the New Possibilities of Ibogaine. Kenneth R. Alper, MD, Emmanuel Onaivi, PhD, John Freelander. Discussion

3:15 pm–3:45 pm  Break

3:45-5:15 pm Ibogaine Anti-Viral Effects
Vic Hernandez, PhD, Chris Laurance, Jason Farell, Richie D. Discussion

5:15 pm–7:00 pm
Final Wrap-up Panel. Kenneth Alper, MD and principal
panelists.

The Monday session will be attended by representatives of various city and state agencies.

Jeffrey Kamlet, MD,
is chief attending physician at the Healing Visions clinic in St. Kitts, and the president of the Florida Society of Addiction Medicine.

Kenneth Alper, MD,
is an Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurology at NYU School of Medicine, and organized the 1999 First International Conference
on Ibogaine and co-edited
(w. Stanley Glick) the Proceedings of that conference (The Alkaloids Vol. 57, Acad. Press, 2001).

Emmanuel Onaivi, PhD, Assistant Professor at William Paterson College, M.Sc. in Pharmacology, Ph.D. in Neuropharmacology.
He will present on NIDA-
funded studies of the effects of ibogaine on gene expression
activated by alcohol and addictive drugs.

Howard Lotsof Discovered Ibogaine as an effective drug detox treatment. Holder of patents for ibogaine’s
use vs.: • Narcotics
• Stimulants • Nicotine
• Alcohol • PolyDrug Dependence.

What is Ibogaine?
Ibogaine, derived from the African root Tabernanthe iboga,  has a novel mechanism of action that is different from other pharmacotherapeutic approaches to addiction. Relevant issues to be addressed by this forum include  the distinctive social and ethnographic aspects of the informal ibogaine treatment context, its cost-effectiveness as a treatment option, and the policy implications of ibogaine’s status as a Schedule 1 substance.
Ibogaine is currently without formal approval as a treatment option in the U.S. However, a distinctive unofficial treatment network, created by international self-help movements in response to the demand of the addicts, has provided ibogaine treatment in non-medical settings such as an apartment or country house.
Participants in this forum will represent the basic and clinical neurosciences, the disciplines of ethnography and sociology, and the FDA, NIDA and the pharmaceutical industry. The promotion of discussion and exchange of information and views among the participants receives significant emphasis in the forum program and agenda.
Topics to be covered include ibogaine’s mechanism of action, safety and efficacy, interaction with memory and neurophysiology, and ethnographic and policy perspectives. The proposed presenters have accumulated significant new data on neurobiological, clinical, and sociocultural aspects of ibogaine.

Advocacy Groups:

Cures not Wars 1-212-677-7180
www.cures-not-wars.org
cnw@cures-not-wars.org

MindVox http://www.ibogaine.mindvox.com

Benu Project 1-212-304-0035

Dora Weiner Foundation 1-718-442-2754

Positive Health Project 1-212-465-8304

Harm Reduction Coalition
1-212-213-6376

Sponsored in part by:
CURESnotWARS
www.cures-not-wars.org • 9 Bleecker St. NYC 10012
(212) 677-7180 e-mail: info@cures-not-wars.org

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Mini-session Guidelines (Low Dose)
Date: February 9, 2005 at 4:14:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee,
I think you are a Good person, but please don’t do
this.  I sent that in private for a reason.  Thank
you.
-J
— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi list,

Just to let you know I posted a page on
mini-sessions (low dose) guidelines with the help of
some useful feedback from jason (knowone knowhere):

http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of
eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.

www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for
members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 9, 2005 at 3:21:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I understand that Ibogaine is illegal in the US. Why would that stop anyone interested in the information from getting it in the US or abroad? Fuck the government, I want to know because it might help someone. I’ve had interferon treatment and the Doc says that I’m cured. What the hell does that mean. All the info I have seen says that you can still find the virus with a certain kind of test. If that is so, I would like to know that if I take Ibogaine every year or so that it might keep Hep C from killing me. Good enough reason for me. LOL  I’ve been bitchin’ about this for a while now. Please excuse the rant.      Randy

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available
Date: February 9, 2005 at 2:11:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

do U pick ya toes in poughkeepsie ? LOL.
Quote from the movie French Connection 71′
—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available

What no toenails?? 🙂 That’s cool.
I just did some kinky shit to your IVD 🙂

[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0

___________________________________________________________
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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Four marijuana horror stories that will make you angry
Date: February 9, 2005 at 2:08:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I say legalize the whole dam drug culture from A to Z.
That’ll sure put a hurt on ol’ uncle sams wallet ouch !!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:04 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Four marijuana horror stories that will make you
angry

Hi all, I post this in friendly but somewhat still confrontational style I
admit.
This is for all of us, but I’m also in need of asking Nick (on
ibogaine
list) a question.
Do you see the similarities between what is happening here in the
following
snipped story Nick, to your notion that because you feel opiates are not
good for someone the police should be encouraged to “drag folks out of
their
homes” and show them the error of their ways, because by golly people on
opiates are simply “drags” and should be officially nudged in the “right”
direction?
Seriously, I bet the cops involved in the following escapade (well, I
wouldn’t bet a lot of money on it actually, as anyone who can befriend
someone STRICTLY to bust them at some point and send them to prison or
jail
is a complete and total asshole to begin with) think they’re not only
doing
these kids a favor by getting them off the streets and out of school away
from drugs (yeeeeah, right, send them to prison, that’ll get them away
from
the scourge of drug…oh, hold on, our prisons are overrun with drugs,
never
mind), but that these kids selling drugs are just drags too, and need to
be
removed from society, (or as Glenn Backes of the New York-based Drug
Policy
Alliance is quoted saying in the article, “These kids were putting others
at
risk by selling drugs and they should be dealt with appropriately.” He did
go on to say, “But to try these kids as adults and burden them with a
felony, you foreclose on their entire futures,” so he at least made an
effort to be sane, but the first part is pretty lame I must say) or at the
least dragged out of their homes and shown the error of their ways. I
mean,
how dare they smoke and sell pot or MDMA or *gasp* cocaine to each other,
they should be drinking alcohol instead, right Nick? That’s the only
sanctioned hard drug allowed by our society today, at least without a
prescription anyway (and not taking cigarettes, sugar, chocolate, caffine
and tv into consideration)…except by gosh these kids are all too young
to
be drinking alcohol- unless they go to Catholic or Episcopalian churches,
as
there they can drink, small sips but enough to introduce them to the taste
of a good hard drug.
Anyway, as you can see, I’m still thinking about the whole “people on
opiates are a drag so the cops should be allowed to nudge them and drag
them
from their homes to change them into better people” (loosely paraphrased)
idea, and I am still just as appalled, especially since it was written by
someone who can and does go on to urge people to take ibogaine, yet
another
highly illegal substance that some people certainly frown upon the use of,
no matter what the reasons given by the user(s

4. And in Palm Beach, Florida, 15 high school students face up to 15
years in prison for selling small amounts of drugs — mostly
marijuana — to undercover agents who befriended them. Some of the
teens sold as little as $10 worth of marijuana. Visit
http://mpp.org/FL/news_1254.html for the story.<

Jesus christ, we gotta send in the cops undercover to befriend then bust
these kids, because why? Not one “victim” of not one crime came forward to
do it for the police, so they had to do it themselves. What in the hell is
that all about? “Damn kids smoking and selling pot to each other, let’s
send
them to jail for years, that’ll teach ’em a lesson.”

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: <Rob@mpp.org>
To: <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:16 PM
Subject: Four marijuana horror stories that will make you angry

Dear Friend:

Usually e-mails from the Marijuana Policy Project report on our court
victories or legislative progress, but we also think it’s important to
occasionally remind all of us why we’re in this battle.

The U.S. government and many foreign governments have declared
outright war on their own citizens for using marijuana. Here are three
recent examples of that:

1. In a major blow to privacy rights — not to mention the Bill of
Rights — the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on January 24 that police may
have drug sniffing dogs present at routine traffic stops. If the dog
indicates that drugs might be present, the police may search the car.

The ruling stemmed from a 1998 case, Illinois v. Caballes, in which
Roy Caballes was stopped for driving six miles-an-hour over the speed
limit. During the stop, an Illinois state trooper with a police dog
arrived, and the dog led the police toward the trunk, where marijuana
was found.

Caballes, who had prior drug-related arrests, was sentenced to 12
years in prison for the marijuana. He appealed, arguing that the
evidence of marijuana in the trunk should have been thrown out,
because the police had improperly widened the boundaries of an
ordinary traffic stop and violated his Fourth Amendment protections
against unreasonable search and seizure.

In ruling against him, the Supreme Court has significantly broadened
the powers of the police to find, arrest, and imprison marijuana
users — not to mention harassing and violating the privacy of
non-users.

2. In Indonesia, a 27-year-old Australian woman is facing death by
firing squad for allegedly bringing marijuana into the country.

On October 8, 2004, airport authorities found 4.2 kilograms of
marijuana in Schapelle Leigh Corby’s luggage. Corby says the marijuana
was not hers, and her supporters suspect it was planted there. Local
police acknowledge it is highly unusual for marijuana to be smuggled
into Bali rather than out of it (as marijuana prices are much lower in
Bali than in Australia).

If found guilty, Corby will be shot to death by a firing squad of 12
men.

Visit http://mpp.org/states/site/quicknews.cgi?key=1065 to read more.

3. Five police officers in Campbell County, Tennessee, are pleading
guilty to beating and torturing a 42-year-old man they suspected of
selling drugs. As they tried to force Lester Eugene Siler to sign a
form stating he had consented to let them search his home, the
officers were caught on tape brutally beating him and threatening to
kill him. The officers are heard on the tape threatening to attach a
battery charger to Siler’s testicles, to shoot him, and to burn him
with a lighter.

“We’re going to take every dime you have today and if we don’t walk
out of here with every piece of dope you got and every dime you got,
you’re (expletive) ass is not going to make it to the jail,” one
officer says on the tape. Another officer is heard saying, “Shoot his
(expletive) ass.”

Visit http://www.mpp.org/TN/news_1279.html for the full article.

4. And in Palm Beach, Florida, 15 high school students face up to 15
years in prison for selling small amounts of drugs — mostly
marijuana — to undercover agents who befriended them. Some of the
teens sold as little as $10 worth of marijuana. Visit
http://mpp.org/FL/news_1254.html for the story.

If you’re as outraged by these reports as I am, please help MPP
restore sense to our nation’s marijuana policies.

The U.S. is an exporter of marijuana prohibition. If we succeed at
ending marijuana prohibition in the U.S., the world will soon follow.

Please visit http://www.mpp.org/donate2006 and make a financial
contribution to our work today. With the help of our 17,000
dues-paying members, MPP has already achieved or funded significant
progress — see http://www.mpp.org/victorygrid.html for some recent
victories — but we need your help to continue our work.

Thank you for standing with us.

Sincerely,

Rob Kampia
Executive Director
Marijuana Policy Project
Washington, D.C.

P.S. Please don’t forget to visit http://www.mpp.org/galas to purchase
your ticket for MPP’s 10th anniversary galas (in Washington, D.C., on
May 4 and Los Angeles on May 9). Celebrities and members of Congress
will be attending both events. All proceeds will support MPP’s work to
end our government’s war on marijuana users.

======================================================================

The Marijuana Policy Project hopes that each of the 155,000
subscribers on our national e-mail list will make at least one
financial donation to MPP’s work in 2005. Please visit
http://www.mpp.org/donate to donate now.

MPP will be able to tackle all of the projects in its 2005 strategic
plan — http://www.mpp.org/2005plan — if you and other allies are
generous enough to fund our work.

======================================================================
You are receiving this e-mail because you subscribed to MPP’s e-mail
alerts. To unsubscribe, simply reply with the word REMOVE in the
subject line. Removal may take up to 48 hours. To contact MPP, please
visit http://www.mpp.org/contact or reply to this e-mail. Our mailing
address is MPP, P.O. Box 77492, Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C. 20013.
======================================================================

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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…
Date: February 9, 2005 at 2:05:28 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

there are reports of safely doing up 1000mg’s of methadone per day.
—– Original Message —–
From: Preston Peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…

There was a fellow on this list on 600 mills of methadone, a day. I’m pretty sure he’s still around and living in Australia. Apparently there are more like him down there too- and that’s what he’s being given, not what he’s scoring extra on the streets.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…

Something caught my eye in this report. They mention the average dose as being around 48 mgs. or so for Methadone, and 9mg.s for bup. Just what dose is average? Doesn’t it depend on the individual? I know for me, my average dose was as much as I could get, but I was normally at 60 mgs. the last time, and it seemed to hold me if I was prudent. I guess what I’m trying to ask is just where does the dose end? I know at one time in the early 90’s I could take 300 mgs. and go to work, yet 80 mgs. held me. Where does the therapeutic dose end and the con begin? As for bup. maybe I’m just a junkie at heart but I wish they would leave out the naltrexone. It makes me cringe to think that an addict has to take that shit.    Randy

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 9, 2005 at 2:01:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibogaine is illegal to obtain, it’s a  CLASS I  in the USA .
Another government hog flogging !!!!!!
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

This talk of Hep C has made me want to ask a question I’ve wanted to ask for a while. Why hasn’t someone done a viral load test before Ibogaine and after to see if there is a reduction? How much would it cost for someone to do this on their own? Seems to me if there is irrefutable proof that Ibogaine really does help with Hep C that the government would at least pick up on it. I know, I know, yea right, but it could happen. Anyway, I think it would be a good idea to avoid the side effects of Interferon treatment if possible. To put it mildly, it sucked!! It could be a good choice for someone smart enough to look for an alternative to the standard Hep C. protocol. And way, way, cheaper. I suspect the information is out there waiting for some money.         Randy

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…
Date: February 9, 2005 at 1:57:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You can get pure Buprenex:
Suboxone (buprenorphine hydrochloride) is an opiate currently being marketed in the United States for the treatment of opiate addiction.  Similar to opiates such as Methadone, Suboxone are designed as a replacement for injected and snorted opiates such as heroin.  Buprenorphine, a derivative of thebaine, provides pain relief and also produces a narcotic high.
Then there’s Subutex which is a combination of buprenorphine with naloxone, an opiate antagonist, in order to prevent any high or euphoric feeling.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…

Something caught my eye in this report. They mention the average dose as being around 48 mgs. or so for Methadone, and 9mg.s for bup. Just what dose is average? Doesn’t it depend on the individual? I know for me, my average dose was as much as I could get, but I was normally at 60 mgs. the last time, and it seemed to hold me if I was prudent. I guess what I’m trying to ask is just where does the dose end? I know at one time in the early 90’s I could take 300 mgs. and go to work, yet 80 mgs. held me. Where does the therapeutic dose end and the con begin? As for bup. maybe I’m just a junkie at heart but I wish they would leave out the naltrexone. It makes me cringe to think that an addict has to take that shit.    Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…
Date: February 9, 2005 at 1:06:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There was a fellow on this list on 600 mills of methadone, a day. I’m pretty sure he’s still around and living in Australia. Apparently there are more like him down there too- and that’s what he’s being given, not what he’s scoring extra on the streets.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…

Something caught my eye in this report. They mention the average dose as being around 48 mgs. or so for Methadone, and 9mg.s for bup. Just what dose is average? Doesn’t it depend on the individual? I know for me, my average dose was as much as I could get, but I was normally at 60 mgs. the last time, and it seemed to hold me if I was prudent. I guess what I’m trying to ask is just where does the dose end? I know at one time in the early 90’s I could take 300 mgs. and go to work, yet 80 mgs. held me. Where does the therapeutic dose end and the con begin? As for bup. maybe I’m just a junkie at heart but I wish they would leave out the naltrexone. It makes me cringe to think that an addict has to take that shit.    Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT!) Fw: Stairway to Hell?
Date: February 9, 2005 at 12:58:19 PM EST
To: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL!
Wow, incontrovertable, if just a bit off topic. Still, this is pretty funny, so I pass it on for the rock lover amongst us all.
They (were?) Satanic. Gosh darn it, gotta go burn my Led Zepplin stuff now, be back in a few.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Mickey Z.” <mzx2@earthlink.net>
To: <mzx2@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:36 AM
Subject: Stairway to Hell?

Stairway to Hell?

While visiting Nick Mamatas’ Journal
(http://www.livejournal.com/users/nihilistic_kid), I found incontrovertible
proof that those Led Zeppelin fellas were indeed Satan-worshippers. Have a
listen to the smoking gun in all its reverse-play glory here:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/stairway.php

It sounds an awful lot to me like they make reference to Arnold
Horshack…but hey, anyone who could sing so callously about a war-torn
region like Kashmir must have at least a little Beelzebub in him, right?

Elsewhere on that site, http://www.albinoblacksheep.com, you’ll find the
wacky kids from Queen allegedly urging their listeners to indulge in some
herb.

The next thing they’ll be trying to tell us is that Madonna was promoting
pre-marital sex.

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From: “FakePlacebo” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] What are the treatment methods of Parkinson with the Iboga???
Date: February 9, 2005 at 12:24:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would be know that treatment of Parkinson by Ibogain. My mother is suffering from Parkinson. So would you tell me how could I help her with Iboga.

Best Regards
FakePlacebo
—– Original Message —–
From: Pipetman9@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo

i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
uptake afaik.

there is something called Parkinson syndrome (e.g. as result of adverse reaction of intoxication by neuroleptics), this condition is often reversible. “Real” Parkinson means that lets say about 70% of the cells in a brain region called substancia nigra already died down or went into a state of metabolic dormancy when the disease is diagnosed, this is not so easy to repair. Parkinson is basically a disorder of oxidative and free radical cell and mitochondrial damage of certain brain regions that use Dopamine. Conventional drugs that treat Parkinson seem only to treat the symptoms not the cause. Selegiline is a Parkinson drug (that has effects that cant be fully explained by its MAO inhibiting ability), it is a structural relative of phenylethylamine, Bromocryptine a structural relative of the ergot alkaloids also is an antiparkinson drug. Ibogaine is relative to these molecules.
Alternative medicine that treats the cause of Parkinson is ignored by established medicine like Ibogaine is ignored by the establishment. All the ignored molecules have in common that they are not patentable (so called orphan drugs) which means they would make no money.

regards; Juergen

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Mini-session Guidelines (Low Dose)
Date: February 9, 2005 at 11:57:44 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi list,

Just to let you know I posted a page on mini-sessions (low dose) guidelines with the help of some useful feedback from jason (knowone knowhere):

http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Provider’s Charter
Date: February 9, 2005 at 11:02:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick,

Thanks for responding to my posts.

I would be very happy to coordinate the work on a Provider’s Charter if people who are out there providing can lend their support by contacting me directly (off list) with their ideas/comments for inclusion. I can collate and draw up a list of all the ideas and send the list back out for comment – evaluation to all who have contacted me. When something is agreed upon I can then post it to the list for general discussion. Anyone out there, providing or not, who has something to add please post.

A few ideas:

1. Necessary tests and what one is looking for in the results – already covered I know by Howards work but I wonder if we can state within a Charter what are acceptable safe test results and what is seriously borderline? At what point does the treatment fall outside what would be considered acceptable for those adhering to a Charter? Can the client be given a risk analysis based on the tests etc

2. Optional tests – mental health etc. What real value if any do these offer? Do they impact on the client’s safety? How do they help?

3. A minimal protocol for treatment, i.e, what is the absolute basic acceptance level and what margin or risk does following that basic level leave? What is definite exclusion criteria?

4. Pre-Session preparation. Establishing what are safe ranges in blood pressure and pulse for a given individual and what is then acceptable during the session. Is a test dose mandatory? Given that providers are working with extract and the HCL, what constitues a test dose of either and what is the minimum time prior to a session it should be given? Also, should a client be made aware of set and setting issues before etc. Fasting/Abstinence.

5. Session dangers: dying on ones vomit, opiates/pulse drop.

6. Post session dangers: dehydration/driving.

6. What is considered basic first aid training and should the provider bi-annually or tri-annually undergo basic first aid training? What is basic equipment?

7. What type of medical backup services are acceptable? What kind of hospitalization treatment is prefered? What can be administered at the scene and what requires emergency service help?

8. What agreements should be signed by both parties etc re: treatment?

9. What is the role of the provider?

11. Post-Session information. Treatment options.

12. Perhaps include optional sections.

13. etc etc.

I would be grateful if interested providers would contact me off list and indicate if they have ideas/suggestions to be made part of a Providers Charter. You can also lend your support with a thumbs up on the list here to get others onboard.

I think the next stage after the Charter can be some form of laymans risk analysis vis a vis the different issues etc. including the realistic risk differences between hospital treatment and a lay man’s treatment. I would like to see the information available in terms understandable to the layman who has no wish to become a medical doctor to establish the level of risk involved. Basically I am also fighting to keep ibogaine (eboga) on the streets (for the non-addict also) by establishing a respected set of guidelines as opposed to hospital treatments.

Just throwing out ideas and not wanting to reinvent the wheel as such (as I know a lot of good info is already out there) but it would be great to pull some of this together at a Provider community level with input from everyone. The idea is not to constrain what is already working perfectly well but to establish minimum guidelines which one can point to and say: I follow that protocol with the following added…..

?

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2005 12:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

Am I reading you right when you say its justified to scare an individual in order to make them more conscious of the possible risks?

You have to be responsible when making statements and you’re not covered by some code of ethics due to your profession. You have to take personal responsibility for what you say and do. That’s my take.

Does this responsibility not include representing the risks realistically in laymans language so that people can decide for themselves, i.e., stating matters logically and cooly? I think that would be a more responsible position to take. Also I do think that providers should sign up to a basic Charter that quantifies these risks based on certain basic agreed procedures as opposed to the benefits of a hospital.

Of course its more dangerous outside a hospital but again until you quantify that danger there is a danger of contributing to a scare based on the ignorance that is promoted by blanket statements about its danger which don’t properly quantify the actual dangers. I am not trying to have a dig at you here. Just simply stating an opinion. Within the context of a Providers Charter with proper back up I believe m.o. quite possibly the dangers are minimal compared to a hospital and it is these risks that should be properly quantified. Actually why do we not put together a table of risks etc depending on tests, setting etc?

Hi Lee,

Of course, if there’s a proper Provider’s Charter then I’d be happy to refer to it. Personally, with new people I state the dangers. The target audience of my site is not so often mature, responsible adults capable of appreciating fully the risks so easily. It’s addicts, and their families and partners, basically. I’ve had plenty of guys “yeah, yeah-ing” me in the past about the dangers and it pisses me off. I like someone to be able to take in what I’m saying. I’m concerned you might die, I’m concerned that more deaths won’t help the drug get more widely available. This is how I come at it.

The problem I have with your view is that once ibogaine is legalised for treatment your views will justify closing down the independents instead of supporting their continued work by putting it all into proper perspective. It also arms those who oppose underground treatment.

I don’t see that it’s so much a question of ibogaine being legalized for treatment, just established as a valid treatment. This seems to me the most likely short-term option that will allow private clinics and state-sponsored drug dependency programmes to begin working with it, covered by their governing bodies. I’m busy with protecting people and the drug’s reputation. I don’t want more deaths and I do what I can to stop this.

So, that’s me. Are you going to put this Provider’s Charter thing together? It sounds very exciting.

Nick

What I get from your emails and warnings is a certain fear towards the treatment and that is okay (up to a point i.e. where knowledge is not available) as clearly there are major risks. But I think fear based on ignorance that can be eradicated (as knowledge is available), should be. Then those considering care are less abused mentally by mis-information. Passing that fear on is not something I want to be a part of. Yes, I want to make known the risks but not to contribute unnecessarily to a climate of fear. That I feel is being irresponsible.

The medical establishment thrives on the presentation of medical data in terms that the layman cannot understand. (In that way many are literally poisoned to death.) Are we to play the same game?

I sometimes wonder if the fear of ibogaine is not in fact a mis-placed fear of the process of self-death it precipitates?

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Four marijuana horror stories that will make you angry
Date: February 9, 2005 at 10:04:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all, I post this in friendly but somewhat still confrontational style I admit.
This is for all of us, but I’m also in need of asking Nick (on ibogaine list) a question.
Do you see the similarities between what is happening here in the following snipped story Nick, to your notion that because you feel opiates are not good for someone the police should be encouraged to “drag folks out of their homes” and show them the error of their ways, because by golly people on opiates are simply “drags” and should be officially nudged in the “right” direction?
Seriously, I bet the cops involved in the following escapade (well, I wouldn’t bet a lot of money on it actually, as anyone who can befriend someone STRICTLY to bust them at some point and send them to prison or jail is a complete and total asshole to begin with) think they’re not only doing these kids a favor by getting them off the streets and out of school away from drugs (yeeeeah, right, send them to prison, that’ll get them away from the scourge of drug…oh, hold on, our prisons are overrun with drugs, never mind), but that these kids selling drugs are just drags too, and need to be removed from society, (or as Glenn Backes of the New York-based Drug Policy Alliance is quoted saying in the article, “These kids were putting others at risk by selling drugs and they should be dealt with appropriately.” He did go on to say, “But to try these kids as adults and burden them with a felony, you foreclose on their entire futures,” so he at least made an effort to be sane, but the first part is pretty lame I must say) or at the least dragged out of their homes and shown the error of their ways. I mean, how dare they smoke and sell pot or MDMA or *gasp* cocaine to each other, they should be drinking alcohol instead, right Nick? That’s the only sanctioned hard drug allowed by our society today, at least without a prescription anyway (and not taking cigarettes, sugar, chocolate, caffine and tv into consideration)…except by gosh these kids are all too young to be drinking alcohol- unless they go to Catholic or Episcopalian churches, as there they can drink, small sips but enough to introduce them to the taste of a good hard drug.
Anyway, as you can see, I’m still thinking about the whole “people on opiates are a drag so the cops should be allowed to nudge them and drag them from their homes to change them into better people” (loosely paraphrased) idea, and I am still just as appalled, especially since it was written by someone who can and does go on to urge people to take ibogaine, yet another highly illegal substance that some people certainly frown upon the use of, no matter what the reasons given by the user(s

4. And in Palm Beach, Florida, 15 high school students face up to 15
years in prison for selling small amounts of drugs — mostly
marijuana — to undercover agents who befriended them. Some of the
teens sold as little as $10 worth of marijuana. Visit
http://mpp.org/FL/news_1254.html for the story.<

Jesus christ, we gotta send in the cops undercover to befriend then bust these kids, because why? Not one “victim” of not one crime came forward to do it for the police, so they had to do it themselves. What in the hell is that all about? “Damn kids smoking and selling pot to each other, let’s send them to jail for years, that’ll teach ’em a lesson.”

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <Rob@mpp.org>
To: <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:16 PM
Subject: Four marijuana horror stories that will make you angry

Dear Friend:

Usually e-mails from the Marijuana Policy Project report on our court
victories or legislative progress, but we also think it’s important to
occasionally remind all of us why we’re in this battle.

The U.S. government and many foreign governments have declared
outright war on their own citizens for using marijuana. Here are three
recent examples of that:

1. In a major blow to privacy rights — not to mention the Bill of
Rights — the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on January 24 that police may
have drug sniffing dogs present at routine traffic stops. If the dog
indicates that drugs might be present, the police may search the car.

The ruling stemmed from a 1998 case, Illinois v. Caballes, in which
Roy Caballes was stopped for driving six miles-an-hour over the speed
limit. During the stop, an Illinois state trooper with a police dog
arrived, and the dog led the police toward the trunk, where marijuana
was found.

Caballes, who had prior drug-related arrests, was sentenced to 12
years in prison for the marijuana. He appealed, arguing that the
evidence of marijuana in the trunk should have been thrown out,
because the police had improperly widened the boundaries of an
ordinary traffic stop and violated his Fourth Amendment protections
against unreasonable search and seizure.

In ruling against him, the Supreme Court has significantly broadened
the powers of the police to find, arrest, and imprison marijuana
users — not to mention harassing and violating the privacy of
non-users.

2. In Indonesia, a 27-year-old Australian woman is facing death by
firing squad for allegedly bringing marijuana into the country.

On October 8, 2004, airport authorities found 4.2 kilograms of
marijuana in Schapelle Leigh Corby’s luggage. Corby says the marijuana
was not hers, and her supporters suspect it was planted there. Local
police acknowledge it is highly unusual for marijuana to be smuggled
into Bali rather than out of it (as marijuana prices are much lower in
Bali than in Australia).

If found guilty, Corby will be shot to death by a firing squad of 12
men.

Visit http://mpp.org/states/site/quicknews.cgi?key=1065 to read more.

3. Five police officers in Campbell County, Tennessee, are pleading
guilty to beating and torturing a 42-year-old man they suspected of
selling drugs. As they tried to force Lester Eugene Siler to sign a
form stating he had consented to let them search his home, the
officers were caught on tape brutally beating him and threatening to
kill him. The officers are heard on the tape threatening to attach a
battery charger to Siler’s testicles, to shoot him, and to burn him
with a lighter.

“We’re going to take every dime you have today and if we don’t walk
out of here with every piece of dope you got and every dime you got,
you’re (expletive) ass is not going to make it to the jail,” one
officer says on the tape. Another officer is heard saying, “Shoot his
(expletive) ass.”

Visit http://www.mpp.org/TN/news_1279.html for the full article.

4. And in Palm Beach, Florida, 15 high school students face up to 15
years in prison for selling small amounts of drugs — mostly
marijuana — to undercover agents who befriended them. Some of the
teens sold as little as $10 worth of marijuana. Visit
http://mpp.org/FL/news_1254.html for the story.

If you’re as outraged by these reports as I am, please help MPP
restore sense to our nation’s marijuana policies.

The U.S. is an exporter of marijuana prohibition. If we succeed at
ending marijuana prohibition in the U.S., the world will soon follow.

Please visit http://www.mpp.org/donate2006 and make a financial
contribution to our work today. With the help of our 17,000
dues-paying members, MPP has already achieved or funded significant
progress — see http://www.mpp.org/victorygrid.html for some recent
victories — but we need your help to continue our work.

Thank you for standing with us.

Sincerely,

Rob Kampia
Executive Director
Marijuana Policy Project
Washington, D.C.

P.S. Please don’t forget to visit http://www.mpp.org/galas to purchase
your ticket for MPP’s 10th anniversary galas (in Washington, D.C., on
May 4 and Los Angeles on May 9). Celebrities and members of Congress
will be attending both events. All proceeds will support MPP’s work to
end our government’s war on marijuana users.

======================================================================

The Marijuana Policy Project hopes that each of the 155,000
subscribers on our national e-mail list will make at least one
financial donation to MPP’s work in 2005. Please visit
http://www.mpp.org/donate to donate now.

MPP will be able to tackle all of the projects in its 2005 strategic
plan — http://www.mpp.org/2005plan — if you and other allies are
generous enough to fund our work.

======================================================================
You are receiving this e-mail because you subscribed to MPP’s e-mail
alerts. To unsubscribe, simply reply with the word REMOVE in the
subject line. Removal may take up to 48 hours. To contact MPP, please
visit http://www.mpp.org/contact or reply to this e-mail. Our mailing
address is MPP, P.O. Box 77492, Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C. 20013.
======================================================================

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 9, 2005 at 8:16:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This talk of Hep C has made me want to ask a question I’ve wanted to ask for a while. Why hasn’t someone done a viral load test before Ibogaine and after to see if there is a reduction? How much would it cost for someone to do this on their own? Seems to me if there is irrefutable proof that Ibogaine really does help with Hep C that the government would at least pick up on it. I know, I know, yea right, but it could happen. Anyway, I think it would be a good idea to avoid the side effects of Interferon treatment if possible. To put it mildly, it sucked!! It could be a good choice for someone smart enough to look for an alternative to the standard Hep C. protocol. And way, way, cheaper. I suspect the information is out there waiting for some money.         Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and bupre…
Date: February 9, 2005 at 7:01:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Something caught my eye in this report. They mention the average dose as being around 48 mgs. or so for Methadone, and 9mg.s for bup. Just what dose is average? Doesn’t it depend on the individual? I know for me, my average dose was as much as I could get, but I was normally at 60 mgs. the last time, and it seemed to hold me if I was prudent. I guess what I’m trying to ask is just where does the dose end? I know at one time in the early 90’s I could take 300 mgs. and go to work, yet 80 mgs. held me. Where does the therapeutic dose end and the con begin? As for bup. maybe I’m just a junkie at heart but I wish they would leave out the naltrexone. It makes me cringe to think that an addict has to take that shit.    Randy

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 9, 2005 at 6:55:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick,

I agree with your response. Any decision like that needs to be taken by the person themselves. I would not push a person in any direction personally other than what is demonstrably safe – even then I would only pose the option. The responsibility for a major decision like that I feel has to come from the person. None of us know what is really anyones situation – each is a world which we only see perhaps about 1%  of. In my own experience I have made decisions that probably not even the most enlightened would understand or think to suggest. It all links to our own internal dynamics in my experience which only the person themselves really knows.

The depth of the eboga experience I think bears this out.

Yet when I think of my first experience I had such a mind splitting death like experience that I realise this process can be very powerful and extremely scary.

Actually there is a lot of talk about “spiritual emergencies” among rebirthing people where a person appears to be going mad but is in fact undergoing a major transformation. It might be an idea for this guy to talk to someone who is up on that sort of thing? I think Grof is in to that.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2005 11:37
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

Personally if my life sucked and I decided to go the course with ibogaine (eboga) to treat my condition I would take it as acceptable to undergo changes in mental behaviour. I would not and do not consider that a negative thing.

I simply find it very hard to believe that any effects from ibogaine (eboga) are mentally negative in the long run particularly if one is committed to continue with the work. Also, one has to view this guys experiences in context. How has it affected him? Has it caused him to reevaluate his life and take a different path, have his relationships improved and so on…..  Perhaps there also needs to be an ongoing committment to ibogaine to allow it to do its work fully. Yet, I believe all of this is taken into account when eboga does its thing with a given individual, i.e., it already knows what the person is up for and applies its healing in that way.

Its a process.

Without this kind of perspective ones reporting of some “adverse” events creates a scare where really none exists.

However, I do feel sorry for this guy who seems to have started the process and got scared by it. Personally, I believe one is taken care of so that these episodes have a positive outcome.

I experienced suicidal episodes, i.e., praying for God to take me, when I entered the depth of my despair.

Lee

Hi Lee,

Well, I haven’t personally seen the guy in question. I just got a mail from him out of the blue the other day. Like I said he mentioned that he’d been taking Creatine and that this was bringing on flashbacks and minor psychotic episodes relating to his ibogaine experiences before. I told him he needed to start proper therapy and suggested a place. I didn’t recommend more ibogaine and wouldn’t do so. When people tell me they’re feeling psychotic and in terror, as he did, I take it seriously. I’ve seen people go to the space where they heading towards full-on madness and I’m very careful. I wouldn’t recommend he take more ibogaine nor creatine.

Nick

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available
Date: February 9, 2005 at 6:23:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That is absofuckinglutely hilarious. I take it you didn’t see outer space. Too bad.       Randy

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available
Date: February 9, 2005 at 6:21:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What no toenails?? 🙂 That’s cool.
I just did some kinky shit to your IVD 🙂

[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available
Date: February 9, 2005 at 5:02:30 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sending some hair your way!  🙂 Thanks for the laugh.
—– Original Message —– From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available

I now have Custom Ibo Voodoo Dolls (IVD) with little
buckets beside them available.

If you wish, at the beginning of your session, I can
light a candle and put your IVD in and out of Water to
help prevent any hydration issues your session.

If you start to feel anxious during your session, let
me know.  I, Dr. Pookie can give your IVD 4 Xanex Bars
and Shake my Special Rattle around the computer
monitor.  I can do this for any sleep issues
afterwards.

If nearing the end of Visions and still not seen any
“aliens”, let me know.  I can tie your IVD to a
firecracker Rocket after writing EGO on the forehead
with Rosemary Oil.  This will (in a loving way) blast
your IVD into space and explode the EGO possessed IVD.
It explodes Christmasy feelings like US Bombs.

After the session, if any withdrawal symptoms persist,
I can inject some heroin (the special kind that
doesn’t ’cause Sickness) into your IVD if needed.
Mayby put your withdrawal under pillow.

Or I can take your IVD to a 12 Step meeting.  “Umm no
thanks, I just need the white chip for my Ibo Voodoo
Doll, thanks though.”

[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Custom IVD’s Now available
Date: February 9, 2005 at 3:56:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I now have Custom Ibo Voodoo Dolls (IVD) with little
buckets beside them available.

If you wish, at the beginning of your session, I can
light a candle and put your IVD in and out of Water to
help prevent any hydration issues your session.

If you start to feel anxious during your session, let
me know.  I, Dr. Pookie can give your IVD 4 Xanex Bars
and Shake my Special Rattle around the computer
monitor.  I can do this for any sleep issues
afterwards.

If nearing the end of Visions and still not seen any
“aliens”, let me know.  I can tie your IVD to a
firecracker Rocket after writing EGO on the forehead
with Rosemary Oil.  This will (in a loving way) blast
your IVD into space and explode the EGO possessed IVD.
It explodes Christmasy feelings like US Bombs.

After the session, if any withdrawal symptoms persist,
I can inject some heroin (the special kind that
doesn’t ‘cause Sickness) into your IVD if needed.
Mayby put your withdrawal under pillow.

Or I can take your IVD to a 12 Step meeting.  “Umm no
thanks, I just need the white chip for my Ibo Voodoo
Doll, thanks though.”

[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and buprenorphine. Randomised trial report.
Date: February 8, 2005 at 11:01:55 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: Depression symptoms in new patients on methadone and buprenorphine. Randomised trial report.

Depressive symptoms during buprenorphine vs. methadone maintenance: findings from a randomised, controlled trial in opioid dependence. Dean AJ, Bell J, Christie MJ, Mattick RP. European Psychiatry. 2004 Dec;19(8):510-3

Dear Colleagues,

This well conducted double blind, randomised study examined psychiatric symptoms used the Beck Depression Inventory (BDI) in a subgroup of consenting patients seeking maintenance treatment for opioid dependence. There were 54 subjects who were each tested at entry and at 3 months into treatment.  While we are not told the proportion who had depression, the mean BDI dropped from 22 (±10) to 12 (±10) in methadone patients and 25 (±11) to 13 (±9) in those on buprenorphine.  By my calculations, the methadone patients saw a mean reduction of 48% in their severity while for buprenorphine, it dropped by 46%.  We are told that the difference between the groups was not significant and that larger studies would be needed to determine if there is actually any difference.  In my view, any residual difference would be modest, and other factors would probably prevail in clinical decisions about which drug to prescribe.  While a BDI reading of 22 would only indicate a moderate depression individually, these are mean figures with standard deviation of 10 so there must have been a number of severely depressed subjects in each group.

The mean doses (for third month) were 48mg (± 20) for methadone and 9mg (± 4) for buprenorphine.  Both would probably be considered lower than optimal although they are higher than in a number of other quoted reports.

Thus the conclusion should be that both methadone and buprenorphine treatments are associated with dramatic reductions in overall depression symptoms in the first three months of maintenance treatment.  Some still warrant specific antidepressant treatment and indeed, one in ten had been prescribed such drugs during the study period.  This is likely to improve retention and reduce illicit drug and/or alcohol use.

The authors state: “The reasons for improvement include both pharmacological and psychosocial stabilisation and may also reflect poorer retention rates for depressed subjects”.  This latter seems inconsistent with their finding that ‘Baseline BDI scores . were not predictive of treatment retention’.

It is always gratifying to have ones long-held clinical impressions confirmed by controlled scientific research.  While the comparative findings may be novel, the observations about depression are not.  Several relevant references are over 20 years old.  We should all be reassured to learn that both methadone and buprenorphine treatments are probably equally effective in addressing symptoms of depression.  This finding supports the general therapeutic practice (in countries where both drugs are available in normal practice) that methadone is the more common first line drug and buprenorphine is used very successfully for those who are unable or unwilling to take methadone.  As with naltrexone (and probably any other drug), doctors who preferentially use buprenorphine will often find limited results with a proportion of patients, notably those with high tolerance, who may later transfer successfully to methadone or other treatments.

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm

Dean AJ, Bell J, Christie MJ, Mattick RP. Depressive symptoms during buprenorphine vs. methadone maintenance: findings from a randomised, controlled trial in opioid dependence. European Psychiatry. 2004 Dec;19(8):510-3

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] NEEDED 2 PAGE IBOGAINE REVIEW ARTICLE
Date: February 8, 2005 at 10:00:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is an open solicitation for a two-page review of current information on
ibogaine for use in support of proposed legislation to promote ibogaine and
iboga alkaloid/congener development.

The review can be posted to the list or sent to me directly.  It should
include regulatory status, mechanisms of action, latest science including anti-HIV
activity.

This will be an important document and can be edited via the list or in other
hands.

Howard

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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo on SF news
Date: February 8, 2005 at 8:14:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeehaaaaaaaaaaaaa………..
—– Original Message —–
From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:10 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibo on SF news

> http://www2.cbs5.com/specialreports/local_story_034171611.html
>
>
>
>
>   /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] in the news
Date: February 8, 2005 at 8:11:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Great !!!!!!!!!!!
—– Original Message —–
From: “bm” <bmali1@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <jenreilly@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] in the news

> hi list
> here is a local news item from san francisco . i
> learnt about it from jen who is also a member of this
> list .
>
> http://www2.cbs5.com/specialreports/local_story_034171611.html
> CBS 5 Special Reports
> Special Report: Addiction Stopper
>
> Feb 3, 2005 2:12 pm US/Pacific
> (CBS 5)  For millions of people who suffer from
> alcoholism and drug addiction, rehabilitation is a
> long painful struggle.
>
> For Greg Douglass, being a rock star and being a drug
> addict seemed to go hand and hand.
>
> “Monday, discovered heroin. Tuesday, started making
> more money. Wednesday, started making a lot more
> money, which of course buys a lot more drugs. It was
> an ill-timed career move,” he says.
>
> The Oakland native was a guitarist for the likes of
> Steve Miler, Van Morrison, and the Greg Kihn Band,
> playing to huge crowds. He even wrote the hit single
> “Jungle Love” for the Steve Miller Band. But
> eventually, the bright lights came crashing down
> around him.
>
> “During 1977 — top of the charts, playing in front of
> 100,000 people at a time,” Douglass says. “Ten years
> later I was virtually homeless living in my car.”
>
> Douglass struggled with heroin and methadone addiction
> for decades until two years ago, when he discovered a
> different kind of drug in a clinic just over the San
> Diego border. The drug could help him kick his
> addictions with a single treatment. It was called
> ibogaine.
>
> “I went to the clinic in Mexico and took ibogaine
> once, and everything changed,” Douglass says.
> “Twenty-year addiction to opiates, heroin, methadone,
> you name it, ended in one eight-hour period.”
>
> Even more startling is the drugs’ origins. Ibogaine is
> an ancient root found in the jungles of Africa, where
> it’s been used for centuries in tribal rituals.
> Researchers believe it contains chemical properties
> that may affect key receptors in the brain.
>
> “We think it is very powerful in terms of blocking
> cravings and helps individuals during the early stages
> of recovery,” says Dr. Deborah Mash of the University
> of Miami.
>
> A new study conducted with rats and mice at U.C. San
> Francisco found further evidence that ibogaine may
> have a similar effect combating alcohol abuse. So if
> the drug has so much promise, why is it illegal here
> in the United States? Possibly because of something
> that Douglass also experienced in the clinic in
> Mexico. Ibogaine causes hallucinations.
>
> “All of the sudden, I was laying there with my eyes
> closed and a huge whoosh of red light, little
> particles of red plankton. Then from out of that was a
> picture of my own face when I was 11 years old,”
> Douglass says. “When I opened my eyes, I was in
> Mexico. I knew exactly where I was. I knew what day it
> was. I knew why I was there. I would close my eyes and
> I would be in a whole other world.”
>
> But far from being a controversial side effect, Mash
> believes that the hallucinations may be beneficial.
>
> “It is a psychotropic drug, mind altering,” she says.
> “I say we ware replacing a negative with a positive.
> If this is a spiritual wake up call, bring it on. If
> this helps the individual grab the demon and motivates
> them to work with a counselor and to stay in
> treatment, who cares if it is mind altering. It is
> mind altering and it is a good thing that it is.”
>
> But the stigma of a hallucinogenic drug made it hard
> for Mash to find the funding. So she was forced to
> move her clinical trials offshore. While the FDA still
> doesn’t allow ibogaine use in the U.S., a growing
> number of patients are receiving treatment in clinics
> like the one we visited in Mexico.
>
> “I feel great,” said Wilda Penney, an alcoholic.
> “Hopefully I can get on with my life.”
>
> Despite the promise of ibogaine, there are still some
> hurdles. Critics worry about potentially lethal side
> effects and lack of long-term studies. Still, the
> early results are so encouraging, Mash has found
> enough money to start FDA trials again in the spring.
> The cost of a typical treatment with ibogaine runs
> anywhere from $3000 to $10,000.
>
> “If there is anybody out there listening to this,
> there is hope,” Douglass said. “Ibogaine changed
> everything. It is not a miracle cure, but it worked
> for me.”
>
>
> =====
> ” lord , make me chaste , but not yet ” St.Augstine of Hippo
> Very bad isn’t dead (“Things can get worse.”)–Haitian Proverbs
> “A truth that’s told with bad intent
>  Beats all the lies you can invent.” William Blake.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
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>

From: “Iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] ibo on SF news
Date: February 8, 2005 at 8:09:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My address:

Djoan Bonfils
122 rue Ball, appt 21
Sherbrooke, Qc, CANADA
J1H1V1

As soon as I Remember, I’ll let you know!

Djoan

—–Message d’origine—–
De : Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Envoyé : 8 février 2005 14:11
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : [Ibogaine] ibo on SF news

http://www2.cbs5.com/specialreports/local_story_034171611.html

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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 8, 2005 at 8:04:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

you may not keep your face in a jar by the door,
who was it for ? flashback ’66
—– Original Message —–
From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

Actually, I use closets, rooms, and sometimes do outdoors.  I do admit starting spawn in jars(Qt’s or sometimes larger) or spawn bags but then you spawn that to a bulk substrate, such as compost, straw, or mix of both.  Yields pound after pound easily.  No super sterility after spawning, no fungicides or anything…  Just good old fresh air and maybe a little humidity.  When I see a contam, I just toss it, disinfect with bleach water, and if you keep your work ethic up, you’ll always have something ready to take it’s place.  Maybe huge commercial growers in other countries practice unsafe growing but generally all the shrooms I have grown and have ever eaten have been great with no ill effects.  I guess it is always best to know your supplier, but in todays day and age with the draconian drug laws in America, that is unrealistic, so grow your own if you’re worried.  Pounds are easy to grow with very little investment and for a few thousand dollars, you can have an elaborate setup with all state of the art equipment, capable of producing hundreds of pounds, depending on your time and space constraints.

chayco@island.net wrote:

You must be one of those folks growing jars in their closets.

Fungicides like benamyl are used to attempt erradication of molds
growing primarily on peat based casing material (commercial operations). This
is often a last ditch attempt to harvest ‘one more flush’..The contamination I
spoke of would usually originate from the casing or substrate due to
ineffective pasteurization or by contamination introduced post pasteurization,
most often at the third harvesting phase.
Trust me,in these situations the spores resulting from competitor
colonization,in a confined space, are considerably atypical to what anyone
breathes normaly. In my opinion, cubensis mushrooms grown in the above
scenario, are not fit for human consumption, although with the exception of
added fungicides,are extremely ‘organic’.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT RE: Aliens!!
Date: February 8, 2005 at 8:03:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Timothy Leary may advise you from deep space.
check him out on one of your astro planes….
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:22 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT RE: Aliens!!

Ohhh I love this stuff!!!!  All the theories out there…… it’s right up my “capt Kirk” alley!!!
One theory I have heard that ties in with Christianity is that we came to earth from a planet called Eden … and our “fall from grace” was when the planet blew up or something and we were sent here….to start again…..our memories have been blocked by another alien race (or something…. I’m really bad with details can ya tell?? LOL) I think perhaps the Lizards?  They can take human form but apparently can’t help but look if you call them Lizard (well, you would wouldn’t you, to see who’s being rude lol) appaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarentlyyyyyyyyyyyyy ole Bush is a lizard!! Hardly surprising!  They’re sposed to be very warlike.  Um…. Whatelse… oh I forget all the details, early alzeihmers but if you ever get to see Phil Gruber talk.(Kathara Healer). go listen it’s real fascinating and great Sci Fi if nothing else.
I’ve got a great story about aliens if you wanna hear it?? Real life this time not second hand lol….
Kirk
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, 8 February 2005 10:32 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

Howard,

The idea of Aliens began to fascinate me after my first journey with eboga. At the time I truely believed it was a celestial joke. Now I am pretty convinced it is not.

I saw the ships coming to earth in my first journey and then in my 3 rd journey I saw a kind of transfer of knowledge between the heavens (aliens) and an ape species. I spent about 1 to 2 years thinking about that and other things I had seen before I finally came to the conclusion that we must have received some kind of guardian angel or guide to help us develop rapidly above the other species (still wonder about that). In particular through the ingestion of certain plants and the suggestion of changes always coming through the mind.

Thats where I came to the conclusion that we are a human soul in an animal body developed out of this earth. All animals having spirits to begin with and us by default beginning as ape spirits becoming human souls.

I will leave it at that except to say i am a little bit stoned on marijuana which I am now taking (a little mixed with mint) to keep me off my nicotine addiction.

All the best,

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/7/05 12:16:26 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

>yesyesyes, I too was very in space, astral is a good word for it. I still
>get an amazing feeling whenever I see video or tv shows about space today.
>I’ve felt vaguely similar feelings about space ever since a kid due to
>certain dreams I’ve always had, but since doing ibogaine, I really feel
>a weird connection with it, with space and the stars. It’s strange and hard
>to put into words, but it’s still very real nonetheless.

Preston,

All theory of course but, with a significant number of persons who have taken 
iboga/ibogaine having similar experiences of traveling in/through space and 
the proposed theories that ibogaine precipitates the release of memories 
including those encoded in DNA, would these memories represent the our journey to 
earth from another place, you know…all that alien stuff?

Howard


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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

–
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From: “pigchips” <pigchips@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork,was astral travel, now 12th planet?
Date: February 8, 2005 at 8:01:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yoke cadets fosite sarga………….
—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork,was astral travel, now 12th planet?

> Oh yehhh, the space port.. that was another part of the Phil gruber
> story…. Iraq and Iran are connected in that there is a Gateway
> (teleporter, beam me up Scotty!@!!)in one country and the activation thingy
> for it in the other.  Same with Ireland/England (similar war thing going
> on?) and a couple of other countries… can’t quite remember (damn
> alzeihmers) we can’t travel thru them yet cos of high radiation…..
> Wish I had a link to this stuff, im hopeless lol
> Kirk
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Jeffgd1@aol.com [mailto:Jeffgd1@aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 8 February 2005 12:26 p.m.
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork,was astral travel, now 12th planet?
>
> Hi Mindvoxians
> Lee wrote:
> >>
> The idea of Aliens began to fascinate me after my first journey with eboga.
> At the time I truely believed it was a celestial joke. Now I am pretty
> convinced it is not.<<
>
> and then Lee continued…
>
> >>I saw the ships coming to earth in my first journey and then in my 3rd
> journey I saw a kind of transfer of knowledge between the heavens (aliens)
> and an ape species.<<
>
> Which immediatly zoned me over to a great late night post string cheese
> incident pyschodelic, informal, off the cuff “class and lecture” by a great
> crystal hunter i know there, in a great warm smoked out telluride condo, we
> learned all about the 12th planet and all of  the studies of Zecharia
> Sitchine
>
>  of which I greatly para-phrase a revelent part here
>
> “The Nibiruans allegedly landed on Earth, colonized it, mining the Earth for
> gold – [metaphor for alchemy – the transmutation of consciousness] – and
> other minerals, who establishing a spaceport in what today is the Iraq-Iran
> region – [Interesting that we went to war in that area] – linked to Sumer –
> and lived in a kind of idealistic society as a small colony. These aliens
> allegedly created a human slave-race to work their mines, farms, and other
> enterprises.
> -They allegedly created Man, Homo Sapiens, through genetic manipulation with
> themselves and ape man Homo Erectus.
>
> Now i am not a full 12th planet disciple by any means ! But the similarity
> between Lee’s post and his experience of alien and ape species transferance
> of knowledge, seems, well a bit Eboga to me!
> The universal mystery of how it all happened- who came first and from
> where.Well Zecharia Sitchine says it is all been written down many many
> years ago and he has been poo pooed by the best but his knowledge of ancient
> text is second to none (and accepted as such) and  not only seem to reveal
> much that cannot be proved it has also revealed much informatiom that we can
> prove and some of that before the tools to prove it even existeed.
> Can Eboga be a window into this sort of knowledge…the most basic
> questions….creation and  origin…seems to need more investigation….
> Freaking most Freely
>  Jeff
> sorry if this got too out there i just felt that the statement Lee made and
> the statement in the Stichine writings were too “something” and wanted to
> throw it out to you ibonaunts
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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>
>
>
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>

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 8, 2005 at 6:25:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PS  Try Medicine Australia,  Hepatitis C Manual     http://216.55.99.51/clinical/hepatitis/hepatiti508.html   Good luck.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 11:15:23 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

How accurate are liver tests?  I know you can get the liver count done, showing what state it is in, but the Hep C testing isn’t too good yet is it?  “They” say they can do a test that shows whether you’ve cleared the virus…..which to me is misleading because as far as I know you’ll always have the virus in one form or another……inactive or active.
Anyone more knowledgeable on this than moi???
Thanks
Kirsty

From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 8, 2005 at 6:11:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Apparently blood tests for liver counts are not all that reliable.  The most accurate test is a biopsy that will give you a genotype of Hep C and the level of inflammation and fibrosis in the liver.  There is a PCR test  to detect a positive or neg to the virus in the body but they only do it during and after treatment to see if the virus has been eradicated.  I’m just finishing a 6 month interferon & ribaviron course and fingers crossed for good results.  Had one PCR test at 4 months that was negative and am hoping future results will be clear.  I found a site called Janis and friends Hep C support at  http://janis7hepc.com/ good and there are some others although the medication & treatment is different to us here in NZ.  All a question of funding and cost.  Also there is a good Aussie site but can’t remember the link just at the moment.  Probably have the Alzheimer problem too.  Allison

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 11:15:23 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests

How accurate are liver tests?  I know you can get the liver count done, showing what state it is in, but the Hep C testing isn’t too good yet is it?  “They” say they can do a test that shows whether you’ve cleared the virus…..which to me is misleading because as far as I know you’ll always have the virus in one form or another……inactive or active.
Anyone more knowledgeable on this than moi???
Thanks
Kirsty

From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork,was astral travel, now 12th planet?
Date: February 8, 2005 at 5:27:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oh yehhh, the space port.. that was another part of the Phil gruber
story…. Iraq and Iran are connected in that there is a Gateway
(teleporter, beam me up Scotty!@!!)in one country and the activation thingy
for it in the other.  Same with Ireland/England (similar war thing going
on?) and a couple of other countries… can’t quite remember (damn
alzeihmers) we can’t travel thru them yet cos of high radiation…..
Wish I had a link to this stuff, im hopeless lol
Kirk

—–Original Message—–
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com [mailto:Jeffgd1@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 8 February 2005 12:26 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork,was astral travel, now 12th planet?

Hi Mindvoxians
Lee wrote:

The idea of Aliens began to fascinate me after my first journey with eboga.
At the time I truely believed it was a celestial joke. Now I am pretty
convinced it is not.<<

and then Lee continued…

I saw the ships coming to earth in my first journey and then in my 3rd
journey I saw a kind of transfer of knowledge between the heavens (aliens)
and an ape species.<<

Which immediatly zoned me over to a great late night post string cheese
incident pyschodelic, informal, off the cuff “class and lecture” by a great
crystal hunter i know there, in a great warm smoked out telluride condo, we
learned all about the 12th planet and all of  the studies of Zecharia
Sitchine

of which I greatly para-phrase a revelent part here

“The Nibiruans allegedly landed on Earth, colonized it, mining the Earth for
gold – [metaphor for alchemy – the transmutation of consciousness] – and
other minerals, who establishing a spaceport in what today is the Iraq-Iran
region – [Interesting that we went to war in that area] – linked to Sumer –
and lived in a kind of idealistic society as a small colony. These aliens
allegedly created a human slave-race to work their mines, farms, and other
enterprises.
-They allegedly created Man, Homo Sapiens, through genetic manipulation with
themselves and ape man Homo Erectus.

Now i am not a full 12th planet disciple by any means ! But the similarity
between Lee’s post and his experience of alien and ape species transferance
of knowledge, seems, well a bit Eboga to me!
The universal mystery of how it all happened- who came first and from
where.Well Zecharia Sitchine says it is all been written down many many
years ago and he has been poo pooed by the best but his knowledge of ancient
text is second to none (and accepted as such) and  not only seem to reveal
much that cannot be proved it has also revealed much informatiom that we can
prove and some of that before the tools to prove it even existeed.
Can Eboga be a window into this sort of knowledge…the most basic
questions….creation and  origin…seems to need more investigation….
Freaking most Freely
Jeff
sorry if this got too out there i just felt that the statement Lee made and
the statement in the Stichine writings were too “something” and wanted to
throw it out to you ibonaunts

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT RE: Aliens!!
Date: February 8, 2005 at 5:22:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ohhh I love this stuff!!!!  All the theories out there…… it’s right up my “capt Kirk” alley!!!
One theory I have heard that ties in with Christianity is that we came to earth from a planet called Eden … and our “fall from grace” was when the planet blew up or something and we were sent here….to start again…..our memories have been blocked by another alien race (or something…. I’m really bad with details can ya tell?? LOL) I think perhaps the Lizards?  They can take human form but apparently can’t help but look if you call them Lizard (well, you would wouldn’t you, to see who’s being rude lol) appaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarentlyyyyyyyyyyyyy ole Bush is a lizard!! Hardly surprising!  They’re sposed to be very warlike.  Um…. Whatelse… oh I forget all the details, early alzeihmers but if you ever get to see Phil Gruber talk.(Kathara Healer). go listen it’s real fascinating and great Sci Fi if nothing else.
I’ve got a great story about aliens if you wanna hear it?? Real life this time not second hand lol….
Kirk
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, 8 February 2005 10:32 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

Howard,

The idea of Aliens began to fascinate me after my first journey with eboga. At the time I truely believed it was a celestial joke. Now I am pretty convinced it is not.

I saw the ships coming to earth in my first journey and then in my 3 rd journey I saw a kind of transfer of knowledge between the heavens (aliens) and an ape species. I spent about 1 to 2 years thinking about that and other things I had seen before I finally came to the conclusion that we must have received some kind of guardian angel or guide to help us develop rapidly above the other species (still wonder about that). In particular through the ingestion of certain plants and the suggestion of changes always coming through the mind.

Thats where I came to the conclusion that we are a human soul in an animal body developed out of this earth. All animals having spirits to begin with and us by default beginning as ape spirits becoming human souls.

I will leave it at that except to say i am a little bit stoned on marijuana which I am now taking (a little mixed with mint) to keep me off my nicotine addiction.

All the best,

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/7/05 12:16:26 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

>yesyesyes, I too was very in space, astral is a good word for it. I still
>get an amazing feeling whenever I see video or tv shows about space today.
>I’ve felt vaguely similar feelings about space ever since a kid due to
>certain dreams I’ve always had, but since doing ibogaine, I really feel
>a weird connection with it, with space and the stars. It’s strange and hard
>to put into words, but it’s still very real nonetheless.

Preston,

All theory of course but, with a significant number of persons who have taken 
iboga/ibogaine having similar experiences of traveling in/through space and 
the proposed theories that ibogaine precipitates the release of memories 
including those encoded in DNA, would these memories represent the our journey to 
earth from another place, you know…all that alien stuff?

Howard


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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Nick
Date: February 8, 2005 at 5:16:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Images of the Matrix flashing thru my head!!!
“Imagine that the spoon isn’t there”
(or something…..)
Lol
Kirk

—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 8 February 2005 10:30 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Nick

Hi Nick !!
you wrote : The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar state,
hum…… :-))  LOL !!

*Look, just read one book on the Saints
Mysteries, Marvels and Miracles in the lives of the Saints
By Joan Carroll Cruz
575 pages of well documented Miracles of the Saints.
A very  fascinating discovery in the life of the Saints.

You wrote :
In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and staying
positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives you negative
feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m interested

* Actualy, this not my technique, this a technique that every human being
use everyday.
By the way, the specialist is one of your citizen :
William Bloom ” the father of the English Hollistic movement ”
If you want to read more about the subject , you can read his book : ” The
endorphine effect ”

*Yes ,this is the technique that I use everyday too stay positive and feel
good.
Why should I feel bad ? Give me a good reason ! If you are healthy, why
bother ?/!
In fact, I have a lot of fun. I work about 10 hours a day, everyday and I
have a lot of  fun living.
I  like to do magic, I t do “metal bending”, levitation and a bit of
sleight of hand. Only close magic. I am studing the technique  one of your
citizen now : Rowland, great magician. I love to make people laught , make
me and them  happy I like to help people too, so my life is fun and in fact
I am very positive, too much for some who do not me.
On the model of a club in Bombay. I would like to do  ” the laughting club
number two ”

* His no such thing as a negative feedback. It s just a feedback For the man
who send it, add the value. For me, a feedback is neutral.That my belief.
Honestly, I don’t see why should I lie to please.
I am not surprise to get some ” negative ” feedback, I get some “positive”
too.  By the way, you told me that nothing is good nothing is bad.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 7:20 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 12:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: 07 February 2005 00:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

Hi Carla !!!

I am not grouch again : ) Ron asked a question and I just told what
I
think.I have been in this list several months and I just
realize that most
of the people are still using and are fully immersed in the drugs
culture .
This is a fact. Now  I don’t have to be judgmental about that.
I am nobody
to judge .Its just a fact. I’ve read on the Ibogaine dossier
that the rate
of recovery is low and this is true.You are right, they are not
too opened
minded in AA or NA regarding Ibogaine. Too bad, I believe Ibogaine
could
realy open a window to give the time to the alcoholic or addict
to make the
change necessary in his life .
” Everything he said ( Patrick ) was about hope, belief and
having faith.”
That the point.The all point. Without hope, a profound change of
your belief
system, and faith. Is no way that an alcoholic or addict will
make it. He
will swich eventually, will control the harm but……..

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot
and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.
I am not specialy an AA man or belong specificly to a religion, I am
not
even a good christian 🙂 I believe that AA or NA will help
enormously if
the alcoholic or addict manage to stay long enought. to see the
fruits.  One
, need patience and humility.

I believe only in what’s work. The only difference beetween a Saint
in
rapture, in a complete state of Extasy and a alcoholic / addict ready
to
commit suicide is theirs  level of Endorphine . Their own
personal control
of the natural production of the pleasure molecule.We have this
natural
gift, and is the right of every leaving creature. They found even
endorphine

Francis,

The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar state. It’s
not,
imo, long-term viable to try and put people, junkies or whoever, into
this
state all day long by fiddling with their neurochemistry, whether from
the
outside with drugs, or from the inside with meditations. Nice for a bit
though.

in single cell organisme.. ….
Let me explain a bit my idea : the body produce neuropetides.in
this case
endorphine……. The neuropeptides change how the body
feels…….the new
feeling aftect our mood, our emotions, and the way we think……..
and
affects our behaviour……..
Or you can do exactly the contrary starting from your
behaviour…. the way
you think…. blabla bla
Or you can start from the way you think……. blablabla.. Here,
in the last
case we are talking about belief system 🙂

NOW, you can shortcut, artificialy and trick your brain to
change the way
you want it to fell…. ….with about the same reaction chaine
but not with
the same output as the natural process.Eventualy we can destroy our
abilities to feel pleasure naturaly and to grow in mastering our
brain.
For me this is a simple chemical and neural response that we have
to learnt
how to dominate..That all.
Forget about, psycology, and all things in…. y  .

We are what we think .

That was a long one …….. considering that I will quit
writting  in this
list this a sort of testament 🙂

In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and staying
positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives you negative
feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m interested.

Nick

Francis,

Sorry, didn’t read your last statement properly, you just mean you will
stay
on the list and not write these type of messages anymore, I guess.
Apologies
for not reading better.

love

Nick

Love
Francis

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Liver Tests
Date: February 8, 2005 at 5:14:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How accurate are liver tests?  I know you can get the liver count done, showing what state it is in, but the Hep C testing isn’t too good yet is it?  “They” say they can do a test that shows whether you’ve cleared the virus…..which to me is misleading because as far as I know you’ll always have the virus in one form or another……inactive or active.
Anyone more knowledgeable on this than moi???
Thanks
Kirsty

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From: bm <bmali1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] in the news
Date: February 8, 2005 at 4:50:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: jenreilly@gmail.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi list
here is a local news item from san francisco . i
learnt about it from jen who is also a member of this
list .

http://www2.cbs5.com/specialreports/local_story_034171611.html
CBS 5 Special Reports
Special Report: Addiction Stopper

Feb 3, 2005 2:12 pm US/Pacific
(CBS 5)  For millions of people who suffer from
alcoholism and drug addiction, rehabilitation is a
long painful struggle.

For Greg Douglass, being a rock star and being a drug
addict seemed to go hand and hand.

“Monday, discovered heroin. Tuesday, started making
more money. Wednesday, started making a lot more
money, which of course buys a lot more drugs. It was
an ill-timed career move,” he says.

The Oakland native was a guitarist for the likes of
Steve Miler, Van Morrison, and the Greg Kihn Band,
playing to huge crowds. He even wrote the hit single
“Jungle Love” for the Steve Miller Band. But
eventually, the bright lights came crashing down
around him.

“During 1977 — top of the charts, playing in front of
100,000 people at a time,” Douglass says. “Ten years
later I was virtually homeless living in my car.”

Douglass struggled with heroin and methadone addiction
for decades until two years ago, when he discovered a
different kind of drug in a clinic just over the San
Diego border. The drug could help him kick his
addictions with a single treatment. It was called
ibogaine.

“I went to the clinic in Mexico and took ibogaine
once, and everything changed,” Douglass says.
“Twenty-year addiction to opiates, heroin, methadone,
you name it, ended in one eight-hour period.”

Even more startling is the drugs’ origins. Ibogaine is
an ancient root found in the jungles of Africa, where
it’s been used for centuries in tribal rituals.
Researchers believe it contains chemical properties
that may affect key receptors in the brain.

“We think it is very powerful in terms of blocking
cravings and helps individuals during the early stages
of recovery,” says Dr. Deborah Mash of the University
of Miami.

A new study conducted with rats and mice at U.C. San
Francisco found further evidence that ibogaine may
have a similar effect combating alcohol abuse. So if
the drug has so much promise, why is it illegal here
in the United States? Possibly because of something
that Douglass also experienced in the clinic in
Mexico. Ibogaine causes hallucinations.

“All of the sudden, I was laying there with my eyes
closed and a huge whoosh of red light, little
particles of red plankton. Then from out of that was a
picture of my own face when I was 11 years old,”
Douglass says. “When I opened my eyes, I was in
Mexico. I knew exactly where I was. I knew what day it
was. I knew why I was there. I would close my eyes and
I would be in a whole other world.”

But far from being a controversial side effect, Mash
believes that the hallucinations may be beneficial.

“It is a psychotropic drug, mind altering,” she says.
“I say we ware replacing a negative with a positive.
If this is a spiritual wake up call, bring it on. If
this helps the individual grab the demon and motivates
them to work with a counselor and to stay in
treatment, who cares if it is mind altering. It is
mind altering and it is a good thing that it is.”

But the stigma of a hallucinogenic drug made it hard
for Mash to find the funding. So she was forced to
move her clinical trials offshore. While the FDA still
doesn’t allow ibogaine use in the U.S., a growing
number of patients are receiving treatment in clinics
like the one we visited in Mexico.

“I feel great,” said Wilda Penney, an alcoholic.
“Hopefully I can get on with my life.”

Despite the promise of ibogaine, there are still some
hurdles. Critics worry about potentially lethal side
effects and lack of long-term studies. Still, the
early results are so encouraging, Mash has found
enough money to start FDA trials again in the spring.
The cost of a typical treatment with ibogaine runs
anywhere from $3000 to $10,000.

“If there is anybody out there listening to this,
there is hope,” Douglass said. “Ibogaine changed
everything. It is not a miracle cure, but it worked
for me.”

=====
” lord , make me chaste , but not yet ” St.Augstine of Hippo
Very bad isn’t dead (“Things can get worse.”)–Haitian Proverbs
“A truth that’s told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.” William Blake.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo
Date: February 8, 2005 at 2:52:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wow, thank you! i´ll ask his neurologist if he thinks selegiline would be an option.he is giving mainly madopar (benserazide) since years. -ekki

Am 08.02.2005 um 20:10 schrieb Pipetman9@aol.com:

i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
uptake afaik.

there is something called Parkinson syndrome (e.g. as result of adverse reaction of intoxication by neuroleptics), this condition is often reversible. “Real” Parkinson means that lets say about 70% of the cells in a brain region called substancia nigra already died down or went into a state of metabolic dormancy when the disease is diagnosed, this is not so easy to repair. Parkinson is basically a disorder of oxidative and free radical cell and mitochondrial damage of certain brain regions that use Dopamine. Conventional drugs that treat Parkinson seem only to treat the symptoms not the cause. Selegiline is a Parkinson drug (that has effects that cant be fully explained by its MAO inhibiting ability), it is a structural relative of phenylethylamine, Bromocryptine a structural relative of the ergot alkaloids also is an antiparkinson drug. Ibogaine is relative to these molecules.
Alternative medicine that treats the cause of Parkinson is ignored by established medicine like Ibogaine is ignored by the establishment. All the ignored molecules have in common that they are not patentable (so called orphan drugs) which means they would make no money.

regards; Juergen

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibo on SF news
Date: February 8, 2005 at 2:10:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www2.cbs5.com/specialreports/local_story_034171611.html

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From: Pipetman9@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo
Date: February 8, 2005 at 2:10:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
uptake afaik.

there is something called Parkinson syndrome (e.g. as result of adverse reaction of intoxication by neuroleptics), this condition is often reversible. “Real” Parkinson means that lets say about 70% of the cells in a brain region called substancia nigra already died down or went into a state of metabolic dormancy when the disease is diagnosed, this is not so easy to repair. Parkinson is basically a disorder of oxidative and free radical cell and mitochondrial damage of certain brain regions that use Dopamine. Conventional drugs that treat Parkinson seem only to treat the symptoms not the cause. Selegiline is a Parkinson drug (that has effects that cant be fully explained by its MAO inhibiting ability), it is a structural relative of phenylethylamine, Bromocryptine a structural relative of the ergot alkaloids also is an antiparkinson drug. Ibogaine is relative to these molecules.
Alternative medicine that treats the cause of Parkinson is ignored by established medicine like Ibogaine is ignored by the establishment. All the ignored molecules have in common that they are not patentable (so called orphan drugs) which means they would make no money.

regards; Juergen

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga seed
Date: February 8, 2005 at 1:51:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

vielleicht hier??
http://www.sementes.de/shop/index.htm?samen_t.htm

Am 08.02.2005 um 19:22 schrieb Pipetman9@aol.com:

I look for viable seed of T. iboga, if anyone can be of help please let me know.

regards, Juergen

From: Pipetman9@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Iboga seed
Date: February 8, 2005 at 1:22:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I look for viable seed of T. iboga, if anyone can be of help please let me know.

regards, Juergen

From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine treatment soon
Date: February 8, 2005 at 1:08:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was on opiates for 6+ years and methadone for 3 of those.  Ibogaine worked for me but I did have minor symptoms when I came out, that were helped by high quality cannabis.  I have been clean for a year at the end of March.  It wasn’t tough and when I tried to use soon after doing the ibo, I didn’t even feel good, so I gave it up and haven’t returned.  I even broke my wrist and had to eat a few vicodin for pain but when the pain stopped (couple days) I gave the rest away and have been fine since.  Just have to take it one day at a time and find other things to do.  Stay away from triggers, and people that will pull you back in.  Only way to be successful, really.  I know I don’t have all the answers but just offering encouragement and saying I did it, so there is hope.  Good luck!

shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi List! Havent kept up as much as usual,been working out the details of my up & coming (re)treatment with iboga. Im always awestruck that when i commit inside my self how things work out ,thought I was using one provider ,now Im going another direction.Even though Ive done it 3 times ,I’m scared. When I ask myself what of,its hard to say,the intensity,perhaps some underlying stuff SOOO big I’ll crumble,which I know wont happen,but ,oh well you know.All the arrangements are made,even though Ive had to borrow the money,I feel ok about that . Its like I know itll cost so much more in the long run.Im working on stabilizing my dosage til then,you know ,not going apeshit or making myself miserable with tapering too much til the ingestion.I’m going to work in post iboga therapy,something I havent done before.Sure I had a therapist,even one who knew about iboga ,but had never actually known anyone who had done it. Im not drawn to 12 step & sure would love to succeed at staying clean past the noribogaine phase this time.No need to bombard me with the whats going to be different this time speech.Thats on my mind big time,but I also dont want to have some hugh fear factor driving me,rather loving being clean so much I choose not to start testing the waters with chipping & my risk taking behavior of seeing what i can get away with.Any suggestions are welcome though.Ive bought alot of the dopamine enhancing amino acids for reentry ,can anyone refresh my mind or know a web so remind me of the protocol?Ive missed keeping up with yall even though Im not the best writer.Enough said, love shell

Vigilius Haufniensis <thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
i was trying to find something on its applications to schizophrenia. not
much out there…

—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki”
To:
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo

> i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
> since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
> uptake afaik.
>
>
>
> Am 07.02.2005 um 19:39 schrieb khalimist:
>
> > I see much written about Ibo as a treatment for alcohol and heroin
> > addiction
> > but have seen little with regards to other uses. Are there any reports
> > of
> > succesful Ibo therapy when pitted against neurotic disorders like
> > anorexia,
> > bulimia, depression, ocd, etc? Can anyone point me to literature?
> >
> > km
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=——————————————————————–
> > -=[\
> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> >
> > \]=——————————————————————–
> > -=[/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
>
\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
>
> —
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 – Release Date: 2/3/2005
>
>


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 – Release Date: 2/7/2005

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 8, 2005 at 1:00:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Actually, I use closets, rooms, and sometimes do outdoors.  I do admit starting spawn in jars(Qt’s or sometimes larger) or spawn bags but then you spawn that to a bulk substrate, such as compost, straw, or mix of both.  Yields pound after pound easily.  No super sterility after spawning, no fungicides or anything…  Just good old fresh air and maybe a little humidity.  When I see a contam, I just toss it, disinfect with bleach water, and if you keep your work ethic up, you’ll always have something ready to take it’s place.  Maybe huge commercial growers in other countries practice unsafe growing but generally all the shrooms I have grown and have ever eaten have been great with no ill effects.  I guess it is always best to know your supplier, but in todays day and age with the draconian drug laws in America, that is unrealistic, so grow your own if you’re worried.  Pounds are easy to grow with very little investment and for a few thousand dollars, you can have an elaborate setup with all state of the art equipment, capable of producing hundreds of pounds, depending on your time and space constraints.

chayco@island.net wrote:

You must be one of those folks growing jars in their closets.

Fungicides like benamyl are used to attempt erradication of molds
growing primarily on peat based casing material (commercial operations). This
is often a last ditch attempt to harvest ‘one more flush’..The contamination I
spoke of would usually originate from the casing or substrate due to
ineffective pasteurization or by contamination introduced post pasteurization,
most often at the third harvesting phase.
Trust me,in these situations the spores resulting from competitor
colonization,in a confined space, are considerably atypical to what anyone
breathes normaly. In my opinion, cubensis mushrooms grown in the above
scenario, are not fit for human consumption, although with the exception of
added fungicides,are extremely ‘organic’.

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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine treatment soon
Date: February 8, 2005 at 12:54:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi List! Havent kept up as much as usual,been working out the details of my up & coming (re)treatment with iboga. Im always awestruck that when i commit inside my self how things work out ,thought I was using one provider ,now Im going another direction.Even though Ive done it 3 times ,I’m scared. When I ask myself what of,its hard to say,the intensity,perhaps some underlying stuff SOOO big I’ll crumble,which I know wont happen,but ,oh well you know.All the arrangements are made,even though Ive had to borrow the money,I feel ok about that . Its like I know itll cost so much more in the long run.Im working on stabilizing my dosage til then,you know ,not going apeshit or making myself miserable with tapering too much til the ingestion.I’m going to work in post iboga therapy,something I havent done before.Sure I had a therapist,even one who knew about iboga ,but had never actually known anyone who had done it. Im not drawn to 12 step & sure would love to succeed at staying clean past the noribogaine phase this time.No need to bombard me with the whats going to be different this time speech.Thats on my mind big time,but I also dont want to have some hugh fear factor driving me,rather loving being clean so much I choose not to start testing the waters with chipping & my risk taking behavior of seeing what i can get away with.Any suggestions are welcome though.Ive bought alot of the dopamine enhancing amino acids for reentry ,can anyone refresh my mind or know a web so remind me of the protocol?Ive missed keeping up with yall even though Im not the best writer.Enough said, love shell

Vigilius Haufniensis <thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
i was trying to find something on its applications to schizophrenia. not
much out there…

—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki”
To:
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo

> i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
> since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
> uptake afaik.
>
>
>
> Am 07.02.2005 um 19:39 schrieb khalimist:
>
> > I see much written about Ibo as a treatment for alcohol and heroin
> > addiction
> > but have seen little with regards to other uses. Are there any reports
> > of
> > succesful Ibo therapy when pitted against neurotic disorders like
> > anorexia,
> > bulimia, depression, ocd, etc? Can anyone point me to literature?
> >
> > km
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=——————————————————————–
> > -=[\
> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> >
> > \]=——————————————————————–
> > -=[/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
>
\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
>
> —
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 – Release Date: 2/3/2005
>
>


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 – Release Date: 2/7/2005

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Vigilius Haufniensis” <thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo
Date: February 8, 2005 at 2:05:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i was trying to find something on its applications to schizophrenia.  not
much out there…

—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo

i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has,
since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and
uptake afaik.

Am 07.02.2005 um 19:39 schrieb khalimist:

I see much written about Ibo as a treatment for alcohol and heroin
addiction
but have seen little with regards to other uses. Are there any reports
of
succesful Ibo therapy when pitted against neurotic disorders like
anorexia,
bulimia, depression, ocd, etc? Can anyone point me to literature?

km

/]=——————————————————————–
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]

\]=——————————————————————–
-=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 – Release Date: 2/3/2005


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 – Release Date: 2/7/2005

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Alien Creators
Date: February 8, 2005 at 11:24:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey list,

As per our extraterrestrial conversation, thought some
of you might get a kick out of the Raelians:

http://www.rael.org/

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Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 11:05:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2005 12:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

Am I reading you right when you say its justified to scare an individual in order to make them more conscious of the possible risks?

You have to be responsible when making statements and you’re not covered by some code of ethics due to your profession. You have to take personal responsibility for what you say and do. That’s my take.

Does this responsibility not include representing the risks realistically in laymans language so that people can decide for themselves, i.e., stating matters logically and cooly? I think that would be a more responsible position to take. Also I do think that providers should sign up to a basic Charter that quantifies these risks based on certain basic agreed procedures as opposed to the benefits of a hospital.

Of course its more dangerous outside a hospital but again until you quantify that danger there is a danger of contributing to a scare based on the ignorance that is promoted by blanket statements about its danger which don’t properly quantify the actual dangers. I am not trying to have a dig at you here. Just simply stating an opinion. Within the context of a Providers Charter with proper back up I believe m.o. quite possibly the dangers are minimal compared to a hospital and it is these risks that should be properly quantified. Actually why do we not put together a table of risks etc depending on tests, setting etc?

Hi Lee,

Of course, if there’s a proper Provider’s Charter then I’d be happy to refer to it. Personally, with new people I state the dangers. The target audience of my site is not so often mature, responsible adults capable of appreciating fully the risks so easily. It’s addicts, and their families and partners, basically. I’ve had plenty of guys “yeah, yeah-ing” me in the past about the dangers and it pisses me off. I like someone to be able to take in what I’m saying. I’m concerned you might die, I’m concerned that more deaths won’t help the drug get more widely available. This is how I come at it.

The problem I have with your view is that once ibogaine is legalised for treatment your views will justify closing down the independents instead of supporting their continued work by putting it all into proper perspective. It also arms those who oppose underground treatment.

I don’t see that it’s so much a question of ibogaine being legalized for treatment, just established as a valid treatment. This seems to me the most likely short-term option that will allow private clinics and state-sponsored drug dependency programmes to begin working with it, covered by their governing bodies. I’m busy with protecting people and the drug’s reputation. I don’t want more deaths and I do what I can to stop this.

So, that’s me. Are you going to put this Provider’s Charter thing together? It sounds very exciting.

Nick

What I get from your emails and warnings is a certain fear towards the treatment and that is okay (up to a point i.e. where knowledge is not available) as clearly there are major risks. But I think fear based on ignorance that can be eradicated (as knowledge is available), should be. Then those considering care are less abused mentally by mis-information. Passing that fear on is not something I want to be a part of. Yes, I want to make known the risks but not to contribute unnecessarily to a climate of fear. That I feel is being irresponsible.

The medical establishment thrives on the presentation of medical data in terms that the layman cannot understand. (In that way many are literally poisoned to death.) Are we to play the same game?

I sometimes wonder if the fear of ibogaine is not in fact a mis-placed fear of the process of self-death it precipitates?

Lee

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 10:23:47 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2005 11:37
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

Personally if my life sucked and I decided to go the course with ibogaine (eboga) to treat my condition I would take it as acceptable to undergo changes in mental behaviour. I would not and do not consider that a negative thing.

I simply find it very hard to believe that any effects from ibogaine (eboga) are mentally negative in the long run particularly if one is committed to continue with the work. Also, one has to view this guys experiences in context. How has it affected him? Has it caused him to reevaluate his life and take a different path, have his relationships improved and so on…..  Perhaps there also needs to be an ongoing committment to ibogaine to allow it to do its work fully. Yet, I believe all of this is taken into account when eboga does its thing with a given individual, i.e., it already knows what the person is up for and applies its healing in that way.

Its a process.

Without this kind of perspective ones reporting of some “adverse” events creates a scare where really none exists.

However, I do feel sorry for this guy who seems to have started the process and got scared by it. Personally, I believe one is taken care of so that these episodes have a positive outcome.

I experienced suicidal episodes, i.e., praying for God to take me, when I entered the depth of my despair.

Lee

Hi Lee,

Well, I haven’t personally seen the guy in question. I just got a mail from him out of the blue the other day. Like I said he mentioned that he’d been taking Creatine and that this was bringing on flashbacks and minor psychotic episodes relating to his ibogaine experiences before. I told him he needed to start proper therapy and suggested a place. I didn’t recommend more ibogaine and wouldn’t do so. When people tell me they’re feeling psychotic and in terror, as he did, I take it seriously. I’ve seen people go to the space where they heading towards full-on madness and I’m very careful. I wouldn’t recommend he take more ibogaine nor creatine.

Nick

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 8, 2005 at 9:02:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All theory of course but, with a significant number
of persons who have taken
iboga/ibogaine having similar experiences of
traveling in/through space and
the proposed theories that ibogaine precipitates the
release of memories
including those encoded in DNA, would these memories
represent the our journey to
earth from another place, you know…all that alien
stuff?

Howard

Howard, I really dig this email…I have always hoped
that ‘god’ is a group of highly intelligent
extraterrestrial beings who created Earth as a kind of
social and biological experiment.

Ibogaine as a releaser of genetic memory- that is just
too cool for words….

Julie

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 7:15:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick,

Am I reading you right when you say its justified to scare an individual in order to make them more conscious of the possible risks?

You have to be responsible when making statements and you’re not covered by some code of ethics due to your profession. You have to take personal responsibility for what you say and do. That’s my take.

Does this responsibility not include representing the risks realistically in laymans language so that people can decide for themselves, i.e., stating matters logically and cooly? I think that would be a more responsible position to take. Also I do think that providers should sign up to a basic Charter that quantifies these risks based on certain basic agreed procedures as opposed to the benefits of a hospital.

Of course its more dangerous outside a hospital but again until you quantify that danger there is a danger of contributing to a scare based on the ignorance that is promoted by blanket statements about its danger which don’t properly quantify the actual dangers. I am not trying to have a dig at you here. Just simply stating an opinion. Within the context of a Providers Charter with proper back up I believe m.o. quite possibly the dangers are minimal compared to a hospital and it is these risks that should be properly quantified. Actually why do we not put together a table of risks etc depending on tests, setting etc?

The problem I have with your view is that once ibogaine is legalised for treatment your views will justify closing down the independents instead of supporting their continued work by putting it all into proper perspective. It also arms those who oppose underground treatment.

What I get from your emails and warnings is a certain fear towards the treatment and that is okay (up to a point i.e. where knowledge is not available) as clearly there are major risks. But I think fear based on ignorance that can be eradicated (as knowledge is available), should be. Then those considering care are less abused mentally by mis-information. Passing that fear on is not something I want to be a part of. Yes, I want to make known the risks but not to contribute unnecessarily to a climate of fear. That I feel is being irresponsible.

The medical establishment thrives on the presentation of medical data in terms that the layman cannot understand. (In that way many are literally poisoned to death.) Are we to play the same game?

I sometimes wonder if the fear of ibogaine is not in fact a mis-placed fear of the process of self-death it precipitates?

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 21:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Nick,

I read that too. That guy was very cool. How he does that is pure amazing (grace!). 🙂

I take your point on the danger comparison. I will have to think of that more. My general idea though is to be able to put some reality on the risk and not leave it out there with a lot of other scary things where it does not belong.

Hi Lee,

Well, personally, I don’t think it’s responsible for the media to portray underground ibogaine treatments as being without risk. So, really, whilst I’m not convinced Dr Mash’s statements are purely altruistic, I’m also fine that she makes them. The drug is dangerous when used outside of hospitals, my opinion, and it doesn’t serve anyone to tell the public it isn’t. Mostly what the medics talking to the media are concerned about, it seems, is that it’s hallucinogenic, not that it’s excessively dangerous anyway.

I simply do not want it to be negatively represented any less than it has to be.

Well, it’s in kind of a unique position. Unlicensed, hard to get hold of legally, and yet possessing immense curative potential. You have to be responsible when making statements and you’re not covered by some code of ethics due to your profession. You have to take personal responsibility for what you say and do. That’s my take.

Saying that. I believe that Eboga, which ibogaine really is, is a very intelligent system of thought among other things. Apart from the actual physical dangers I do not for a moment believe there can be any mental dangers. And, every auricle I have heard on the ibo scene says the same.

I have a guy mailing me at the moment that says ibogaine brought on psychotic episodes which are still troubling him 3.5 years later. IMO It’s totally feasible. You’re digging into the unconscious mind and where there are big packets of fear there will be mental freak-outs. There will be reactions. You’re taking someone out of a highly controlled state of consciousness, day-to-day reality, and into this wild crazy world of the unconscious mind. What I would say is that imo ibogaine is a safer exploratory tool than other tryptamines or related drugs. That it’s mentally safe, that it couldn’t drive you nuts? I couldn’t go that far. I still never heard back from the French guy, Xavier, 5 years ago. He had a wild experience and just wanted to go back for more, taking 10+ grams of Indra. What happened? Xavier – are you out there somewhere?

So, why don’t we promote that side of it for instance?

Can we not somehow define the risk in a way that puts it into proper perspective?

For me, you have to be responsible. I push the dangerous aspects to novices because I want people who aren’t going to go to a doctor to listen. And what makes them listen is the thought that if they don’t do it right they might die. I see the mind like a set of scales. People want to believe there’s a miracle cure and this is on one side. If you leave it like this they can get irresponsible. What balances this and makes them more likely to act responsibly is what you need to place on the other side – the thought that they might die. That’s how I see it.

Nick

BTW thanks for the info. It helps me to understand it a lot better. When I read it is rings very true.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 18:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

I read your mail and then attempted to kill two birds with one stone by replying to Howards.

I agree when you mention the liver tests. I am just not sure if the general public (me included) has a handle on what those tests really mean, i.e., if someone has no heart problems and appears in good physical health how likely is it that their liver would not support an ibogaine session? The state of someones liver is usually obvious from their complexion? Am I being very nieve here?

I am making this point to simply try and give people all the options in context. Yes, do the tests but if someone can do the heart and not the liver test who is not an addict or an alcoholic (for example), can they not decide for themselves based on a realistic understanding of what the liver tests actually mean? And it is this realistic understanding which I feel is missing from the warnings which are being issued re: heart and liver etc, creating perhaps an unnecessary scare.

BTW I am not advocating not doing the tests. I am simply trying to put them into a fuller context for better appreciation – if that is possible.

Lee

Hi Lee,

I also don’t know so much about the background of these tests. You need to consult with people with a better knowledge of medicine. Yes, it would be great to hear more generally.

The inquest into the death of JW in London, early 2000 found “liver failure” as a secondary cause, if I remember correctly. He’d taken approx 6g of iboga extract to try and resolve a long-term heroin and methadone addiction. My understanding is that ibogaine and its metabolites need a lot of processing in the liver and that it has to be in reasonable condition to do this. Also that many addicts have weakened livers and some may not be able to withstand the treatment. This is just what I have picked up from the ibogaine/medical grapevine, nothing else.

Personally, I can’t weaken the case for proper testing and supervision during ibogaine treatment by referring to the number of people that die through prescribed drug incidents. If I’m offering advice or a treatment then I need to be sure in myself that I can absolutely stand by what I am saying and doing because it will be me in court defending my actions in the extremely unlikely event that something should go wrong. I couldn’t stand up there and say “Well, thousands of people die because of prescribed drugs.” That wouldn’t work for me, and I doubt the judge would be so impressed either.

Related, I was intrigued to listen to the radio interview online that Howard posted a couple of days ago. The lay provider, Demetri, spoke of how, in the event of anything going wrong, he would call 911 and then leave when he could hear the sirens, leaving the ambulance crew to pick up the ibogaine patient alone. He said he’d only had to do it once. I don’t have anything against this, it’s quite rational. But I would personally find it very hard to do.

Nick

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 6:36:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick,

Personally if my life sucked and I decided to go the course with ibogaine (eboga) to treat my condition I would take it as acceptable to undergo changes in mental behaviour. I would not and do not consider that a negative thing.

I simply find it very hard to believe that any effects from ibogaine (eboga) are mentally negative in the long run particularly if one is committed to continue with the work. Also, one has to view this guys experiences in context. How has it affected him? Has it caused him to reevaluate his life and take a different path, have his relationships improved and so on…..  Perhaps there also needs to be an ongoing committment to ibogaine to allow it to do its work fully. Yet, I believe all of this is taken into account when eboga does its thing with a given individual, i.e., it already knows what the person is up for and applies its healing in that way.

Its a process.

Without this kind of perspective ones reporting of some “adverse” events creates a scare where really none exists.

However, I do feel sorry for this guy who seems to have started the process and got scared by it. Personally, I believe one is taken care of so that these episodes have a positive outcome.

I experienced suicidal episodes, i.e., praying for God to take me, when I entered the depth of my despair.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

Saying that. I believe that Eboga, which ibogaine really is, is a very intelligent system of thought among other things. Apart from the actual physical dangers I do not for a moment believe there can be any mental dangers. And, every auricle I have heard on the ibo scene says the same.

I have a guy mailing me at the moment that says ibogaine brought on psychotic episodes which are still troubling him 3.5 years later. IMO It’s totally feasible. You’re digging into the unconscious mind and where there are big packets of fear there will be mental freak-outs. There will be reactions. You’re taking someone out of a highly controlled state of consciousness, day-to-day reality, and into this wild crazy world of the unconscious mind. What I would say is that imo ibogaine is a safer exploratory tool than other tryptamines or related drugs. That it’s mentally safe, that it couldn’t drive you nuts? I couldn’t go that far.

Just to complete this properly,  I checked and  actually what he said was that he started using the fitness supplement Creatine 3 weeks ago and it seemed to bring on flashbacks and “minor psychotic episodes” relating to his ibogaine experience in 2001.  He’s stopped taking Creatine now. Interesting though also worrying.
Nick

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 6:04:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2005 06:47
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
What were you thinking of?

Something along the lines of a condensed crash
course for an MD or Medic.  Take the top 5 reasons
people visit the ER, and appropiate actions.  You
know, medical stuff.

I’m picturing someone wanting treatment, leaves out
information that they had 50 cocaine induced heart
attacks the week before schedualed to dose.  So his
heart starts weezing and the medics show up and Howard
or Patrick or Jon F
has two minutes to get the medic/MD who had never
heard of ibogaine to get up to speed, as much as
possible.  If the patient was suffering I doubt going
into the Contemporary History of Ibogaine or anecdotal
reports would be the best use of that short time.

If the patient has already provided a medical
report, perhaps leaving it to be found by the medics
when they arrive would be reasonable.

Any thoughts??

You could ask hospitals what they thought of the idea, whether they would
like this material. That would be a first step. Be good to know the right
channel to go through for such a thing.

Nick

Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 6:00:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Saying that. I believe that Eboga, which ibogaine really is, is a very intelligent system of thought among other things. Apart from the actual physical dangers I do not for a moment believe there can be any mental dangers. And, every auricle I have heard on the ibo scene says the same.

I have a guy mailing me at the moment that says ibogaine brought on psychotic episodes which are still troubling him 3.5 years later. IMO It’s totally feasible. You’re digging into the unconscious mind and where there are big packets of fear there will be mental freak-outs. There will be reactions. You’re taking someone out of a highly controlled state of consciousness, day-to-day reality, and into this wild crazy world of the unconscious mind. What I would say is that imo ibogaine is a safer exploratory tool than other tryptamines or related drugs. That it’s mentally safe, that it couldn’t drive you nuts? I couldn’t go that far.

Just to complete this properly,  I checked and  actually what he said was that he started using the fitness supplement Creatine 3 weeks ago and it seemed to bring on flashbacks and “minor psychotic episodes” relating to his ibogaine experience in 2001.  He’s stopped taking Creatine now. Interesting though also worrying.
Nick

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Ekki
Date: February 8, 2005 at 3:18:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi francis, thanks for the answer! i like to communicate about spirituality although i find it hard being precise and not sounding overweening concerning something that cannot be accessed by words. “open mouth already mistake” but “mistakes point the way” as my zen people say. ibogaine has a strong spiritual impact you will see.

btw for those visiting the conference there is a interesting book called “zig zag zen” about the relationship between buddhism and psychedelics where alex grey of COSM edited the graphics, unfortunately there is not much about ibogaine in it.

with cigarettes i stopped a couple of times but always relapsed because i relied on my willpower and felt deprieved of something. after ibo i enjoyed not to smoke and found it a pleasure to breath fresh air, no willpower necessary. some people continue to smoke after ibo. personally i didn´t plan to stop smoking with ibo. i continued to smoke for two weeks after ibo, but smoking didn´t feel good. when i smoked the last cigarette i knew it was the last and i´m totally sure i will not relapse. generally with stopping addiction it seems to work if it is a pleasure not to use instead of feeling you miss something. thats also the approach that is tried in allen carrs easyway although reading the book itself didn´t work for me.
peace ekki

Am 08.02.2005 um 04:08 schrieb The Garden:

Hi Ekki !!
“Many river, one sea” One God.
I love to read biographies of Saints and I am a sort of christian. I like
Taoism too, Buddhism too, Hawaian shamanisme and more…  The important is
to pick up a model ( or a couple ) and stick with it 🙂 the perpetual
research is endless…and easy..

Spirituality for me is a  personal adventure : a direct connection, throught
prayer, meditation, contemplation .music, art poetry. dreams , dance, etc…
Something very personal…..Inexplicable…
I never took I bogaine ,I am scheduled for the end of spring. For the cig.I
am so freaking tired of tmy own weakness., that I want to take three days
off and deal with it in a retreat.I’ ve tried everything, this is just my
dam weakness..
Cheers and God bless
francis
Ps for the wringing traduction . English is not my first language, but I
think is like when you twist a wet rag to get the water out of it.:-)
Yeap, I love saint Francis . I am reading my third biography of him. I love
him particularly. :-)He was fun, happy, innocent, kind …..

—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

hi francis, so we basically agree.
the whole concept of faith belief and saintliness is too roman-catholic
for my taste but if it works for you that is great. in christianity i
like this mystic meister eckhart who i was named after while you seem
to be more into st francis, btw i doubt if this “wringing out the
light” is an original quote, what does it mean?
don´t you want to tell us about your experience with ibo? have you
tried it to stop smoking?
cheers ekki

Am 07.02.2005 um 04:35 schrieb The Garden:

In fact at I did’nt make any distinction : a junky could be tomorrow a
Saint.
In fact , you have all kind of  Saint  Knights, Magistrate,
drunk,mother of
five, killers , so on and so on
—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot
and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.

it doesn´t make any sense to make a distinction between a saint and a
junky. i think i even met some who are both. a saint should be ready to
die anytime and why would he need hope belief and faith anymore?

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo
Date: February 8, 2005 at 2:44:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i would be interested in ibo relating to parkison which my father has, since this illness is basically a disorder of dopamin production and uptake afaik.

Am 07.02.2005 um 19:39 schrieb khalimist:

I see much written about Ibo as a treatment for alcohol and heroin addiction
but have seen little with regards to other uses. Are there any reports of
succesful Ibo therapy when pitted against neurotic disorders like anorexia,
bulimia, depression, ocd, etc? Can anyone point me to literature?

km

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 8, 2005 at 2:38:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yesterday i found some information on puzzlepiece.org where some people have had some experiences similar but not as strong as ibogaine, while others felt no effects. nothing about addiction research though.
it would be interesting to get information about dosing. there seem to grow a lot of those trees somewhere in afrika so it could be quite cheap.
ekki

Am 08.02.2005 um 05:07 schrieb Crooked Eye:

I tried a gram of extract and it didn’t do anything…

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
anyone ever tried this? it is said to contain ibogaine-like alkaloids,
is available as extract and legal everywhere, afaik

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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 8, 2005 at 2:15:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Fungicides can’t be used on ! mushroom crops, because mushrooms are a fungus.<

But apparently, or so I’ve always heared, farmers can feed their cattle falstaf (I think that’s the name of the stuff) and kill the spoors inside the cattle that way, before they even poop. That’s what I’ve always thought was the case, and often heared stories that this or that field was no good any more while living in Florida and picking on a regular basis, due to the cattle eating falstaf fed them by their farmers.
This could be a myth, but I’ve always believed it to be true.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Crooked Eye
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

chayco@island.net wrote:.

Mushrooms (psylocibe varieties) are interesting at best and newbies are always
agog with psycho babble insight. Psylicibin is ‘cute’…can’t deny it.
Consumers should be aware of fungicides that some growers have to resort to, on
occasion, to control contaminants.When growing ‘shrooms it is a race with
contamination, initially you are growing in a ‘clean’ environment and then
contaminants enter the room as the crop is harvested, resulting in some bizarre
and horrendous lifeforms attaching themselves to your once ‘clean’ grow room
environment.

A wise ‘shroom consumer should request ‘first crop’ cubensis mushrooms rather
than 2/3/4 crop ‘shrooms. Ahhh, but dealers don’t know squat and will just
charge you more and lie to you.

It is amazing what shady past lives we have had….but my ‘debt to society has
been paid’…in full.

….Ken

Fungicides can’t be used on ! mushroom crops, because mushrooms are a fungus.  Once a substrate is colonized in a sterile jar it can be fruited, or it can be spawned to a less nutritious substrate, such as straw, that is kess likely to get mold or bacterial contamination.  Later crops can sometimes be more potent so the first flush mushrooms aren’t always the best and trust me most of the possible mold spores that could have dropped on them are pretty much in the everyday air we breathe, so it’s not harmful.  I have grown shrooms for years and they are a wonderful trip, with great insights.  Not nearly as powerful as Iboga but nonetheless a useful tool.

Do you Yahoo!?
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 1:47:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
What were you thinking of?

Something along the lines of a condensed crash
course for an MD or Medic.  Take the top 5 reasons
people visit the ER, and appropiate actions.  You
know, medical stuff.

I’m picturing someone wanting treatment, leaves out
information that they had 50 cocaine induced heart
attacks the week before schedualed to dose.  So his
heart starts weezing and the medics show up and Howard
or Patrick or Jon F
has two minutes to get the medic/MD who had never
heard of ibogaine to get up to speed, as much as
possible.  If the patient was suffering I doubt going
into the Contemporary History of Ibogaine or anecdotal
reports would be the best use of that short time.

If the patient has already provided a medical
report, perhaps leaving it to be found by the medics
when they arrive would be reasonable.

Any thoughts??

Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Heads Up
Date: February 8, 2005 at 1:14:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Crisco, Willingness and

___________________________________________________________

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more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: chayco@island.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 8, 2005 at 1:06:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Quoting Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>:

chayco@island.net wrote:.

Mushrooms (psylocibe varieties) are interesting at best and newbies are
always
agog with psycho babble insight. Psylicibin is ‘cute’…can’t deny it.
Consumers should be aware of fungicides that some growers have to resort to,
on
occasion, to control contaminants.When growing ‘shrooms it is a race with
contamination, initially you are growing in a ‘clean’ environment and then
contaminants enter the room as the crop is harvested, resulting in some
bizarre
and horrendous lifeforms attaching themselves to your once ‘clean’ grow room
environment.

A wise ‘shroom consumer should request ‘first crop’ cubensis mushrooms rather
than 2/3/4 crop ‘shrooms. Ahhh, but dealers don’t know squat and will just
charge you more and lie to you.

It is amazing what shady past lives we have had….but my ‘debt to society
has
been paid’…in full.

….Ken

Fungicides can’t be used on mushroom crops, because mushrooms are a fungus.
Once a substrate is colonized in a sterile jar it can be fruited, or it can
be spawned to a less nutritious substrate, such as straw, that is kess likely
to get mold or bacterial contamination.  Later crops can sometimes be more
potent so the first flush mushrooms aren’t always the best and trust me most
of the possible mold spores that could have dropped on them are pretty much
in the everyday air we breathe, so it’s not harmful.  I have grown shrooms
for years and they are a wonderful trip, with great insights.  Not nearly as
powerful as Iboga but nonetheless a useful tool.

You must be one of those folks growing jars in their closets.

Fungicides like benamyl are used to attempt erradication of molds
growing primarily on peat based casing material (commercial operations). This
is often a last ditch attempt to harvest ‘one more flush’..The contamination I
spoke of would usually originate from the casing or substrate due to
ineffective pasteurization or by contamination introduced post pasteurization,
most often at the third harvesting phase.
Trust me,in these situations the spores resulting from competitor
colonization,in a confined space, are considerably atypical to what anyone
breathes normaly. In my opinion, cubensis mushrooms grown in the above
scenario, are not fit for human consumption, although with the exception of
added fungicides,are extremely ‘organic’.

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From: “Iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] OT: to Nick
Date: February 8, 2005 at 12:28:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Keep beating the drum everyone.

Thx

—–Message d’origine—–
De : The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Envoyé : 7 février 2005 16:30
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Nick

Hi Nick !!
you wrote : The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar
state, hum…… :-))  LOL !!

*Look, just read one book on the Saints
Mysteries, Marvels and Miracles in the lives of the Saints
By Joan Carroll Cruz
575 pages of well documented Miracles of the Saints.
A very  fascinating discovery in the life of the Saints.

You wrote :
In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and staying
positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives you
negative feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m interested

* Actualy, this not my technique, this a technique that every human
being use everyday. By the way, the specialist is one of your citizen :
William Bloom ” the father of the English Hollistic movement ” If you
want to read more about the subject , you can read his book : ” The
endorphine effect ”

*Yes ,this is the technique that I use everyday too stay positive and
feel good. Why should I feel bad ? Give me a good reason ! If you are
healthy, why bother ?/! In fact, I have a lot of fun. I work about 10
hours a day, everyday and I have a lot of  fun living.  I  like to do
magic, I t do “metal bending”, levitation and a bit of sleight of hand.
Only close magic. I am studing the technique  one of your citizen now :
Rowland, great magician. I love to make people laught , make me and them
happy I like to help people too, so my life is fun and in fact I am very
positive, too much for some who do not me. On the model of a club in
Bombay. I would like to do  ” the laughting club number two ”

* His no such thing as a negative feedback. It s just a feedback For the
man who send it, add the value. For me, a feedback is neutral.That my
belief. Honestly, I don’t see why should I lie to please. I am not
surprise to get some ” negative ” feedback, I get some “positive” too.
By the way, you told me that nothing is good nothing is bad.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 7:20 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 12:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: 07 February 2005 00:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

Hi Carla !!!

I am not grouch again : ) Ron asked a question and I just told
what
I
think.I have been in this list several months and I just
realize that most
of the people are still using and are fully immersed in the drugs
culture . This is a fact. Now  I don’t have to be judgmental about

that.
I am nobody
to judge .Its just a fact. I’ve read on the Ibogaine dossier
that the rate
of recovery is low and this is true.You are right, they are not
too opened
minded in AA or NA regarding Ibogaine. Too bad, I believe Ibogaine
could
realy open a window to give the time to the alcoholic or addict to

make the change necessary in his life .
” Everything he said ( Patrick ) was about hope, belief and
having faith.”
That the point.The all point. Without hope, a profound change of
your belief system, and faith. Is no way that an alcoholic or
addict will
make it. He
will swich eventually, will control the harm but……..

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to
shoot
and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith. I am
not specialy an AA man or belong specificly to a religion, I am
not
even a good christian 🙂 I believe that AA or NA will help
enormously if
the alcoholic or addict manage to stay long enought. to see the
fruits.  One , need patience and humility.

I believe only in what’s work. The only difference beetween a
Saint
in
rapture, in a complete state of Extasy and a alcoholic / addict
ready
to
commit suicide is theirs  level of Endorphine . Their own
personal control
of the natural production of the pleasure molecule.We have this
natural
gift, and is the right of every leaving creature. They found even
endorphine

Francis,

The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar state. It’s
not,
imo, long-term viable to try and put people, junkies or whoever,
into
this
state all day long by fiddling with their neurochemistry, whether
from
the
outside with drugs, or from the inside with meditations. Nice for a
bit though.

in single cell organisme.. ….
Let me explain a bit my idea : the body produce neuropetides.in
this case
endorphine……. The neuropeptides change how the body
feels…….the new feeling aftect our mood, our emotions, and the

way we think……..
and
affects our behaviour……..
Or you can do exactly the contrary starting from your
behaviour…. the way you think…. blabla bla
Or you can start from the way you think……. blablabla.. Here,
in the last
case we are talking about belief system 🙂

NOW, you can shortcut, artificialy and trick your brain to
change the way
you want it to fell…. ….with about the same reaction chaine
but not with the same output as the natural process.Eventualy we
can destroy our abilities to feel pleasure naturaly and to grow in

mastering our
brain.
For me this is a simple chemical and neural response that we have
to learnt how to dominate..That all.
Forget about, psycology, and all things in…. y  .

We are what we think .

That was a long one …….. considering that I will quit writting

in this list this a sort of testament 🙂

In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and
staying positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives
you negative feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m
interested.

Nick

Francis,

Sorry, didn’t read your last statement properly, you just mean you
will
stay
on the list and not write these type of messages anymore, I guess.
Apologies
for not reading better.

love

Nick

Love
Francis

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From: “Iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 8, 2005 at 12:28:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Keep beating the drum!

Hey Nick,

Do you think it would be a good idea for the medical
ibogaine peeps to come up with a short Medical
Ibogaine pamplet (skipping the romantisism part), to
get the medic’s & Doc’s up to speed a little bit with
what they are dealing with.  Perhaps this could help
the Medical professionals do their job more
effectively if something came up, to aid communication
between those caring for the patient.  Who knows…

Cheers,
Jason

— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
…in the event of anything going wrong, he would call
911 and then leave when he could hear the sirens,
leaving the ambulance crew to pick up the ibogaine
patient alone. He said he’d only had to do it once. I
don’t have anything against this, it’s quite rational.
But I would personally find it very hard to do.

Nick

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 7, 2005 at 11:07:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I tried a gram of extract and it didn’t do anything…

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
anyone ever tried this? it is said to contain ibogaine-like alkaloids,
is available as extract and legal everywhere, afaik

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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’

From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 7, 2005 at 11:00:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

chayco@island.net wrote:.

Mushrooms (psylocibe varieties) are interesting at best and newbies are always
agog with psycho babble insight. Psylicibin is ‘cute’…can’t deny it.
Consumers should be aware of fungicides that some growers have to resort to, on
occasion, to control contaminants.When growing ‘shrooms it is a race with
contamination, initially you are growing in a ‘clean’ environment and then
contaminants enter the room as the crop is harvested, resulting in some bizarre
and horrendous lifeforms attaching themselves to your once ‘clean’ grow room
environment.

A wise ‘shroom consumer should request ‘first crop’ cubensis mushrooms rather
than 2/3/4 crop ‘shrooms. Ahhh, but dealers don’t know squat and will just
charge you more and lie to you.

It is amazing what shady past lives we have had….but my ‘debt to society has
been paid’…in full.

….Ken

Fungicides can’t be used on mushroom crops, because mushrooms are a fungus.  Once a substrate is colonized in a sterile jar it can be fruited, or it can be spawned to a less nutritious substrate, such as straw, that is kess likely to get mold or bacterial contamination.  Later crops can sometimes be more potent so the first flush mushrooms aren’t always the best and trust me most of the possible mold spores that could have dropped on them are pretty much in the everyday air we breathe, so it’s not harmful.  I have grown shrooms for years and they are a wonderful trip, with great insights.  Not nearly as powerful as Iboga but nonetheless a useful tool.

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Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Ekki
Date: February 7, 2005 at 10:08:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki !!
“Many river, one sea” One God.
I love to read biographies of Saints and I am a sort of christian. I like
Taoism too, Buddhism too, Hawaian shamanisme and more…  The important is
to pick up a model ( or a couple ) and stick with it 🙂 the perpetual
research is endless…and easy..

Spirituality for me is a  personal adventure : a direct connection, throught
prayer, meditation, contemplation .music, art poetry. dreams , dance, etc…
Something very personal…..Inexplicable…
I never took I bogaine ,I am scheduled for the end of spring. For the cig.I
am so freaking tired of tmy own weakness., that I want to take three days
off and deal with it in a retreat.I’ ve tried everything, this is just my
dam weakness..
Cheers and God bless
francis
Ps for the wringing traduction . English is not my first language, but I
think is like when you twist a wet rag to get the water out of it.:-)
Yeap, I love saint Francis . I am reading my third biography of him. I love
him particularly. :-)He was fun, happy, innocent, kind …..

—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

hi francis, so we basically agree.
the whole concept of faith belief and saintliness is too roman-catholic
for my taste but if it works for you that is great. in christianity i
like this mystic meister eckhart who i was named after while you seem
to be more into st francis, btw i doubt if this “wringing out the
light” is an original quote, what does it mean?
don´t you want to tell us about your experience with ibo? have you
tried it to stop smoking?
cheers ekki

Am 07.02.2005 um 04:35 schrieb The Garden:

In fact at I did’nt make any distinction : a junky could be tomorrow a
Saint.
In fact , you have all kind of  Saint  Knights, Magistrate,
drunk,mother of
five, killers , so on and so on
—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot
and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.

it doesn´t make any sense to make a distinction between a saint and a
junky. i think i even met some who are both. a saint should be ready to
die anytime and why would he need hope belief and faith anymore?

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Preston : Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 7, 2005 at 8:11:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston !!
Apologies accepted !! Nothing of what I write is realy important enought for
anybody to choose to get upset reading my E-mail.
We are different in our beliefs. That’s all.I don’t want to upset you. If
you find anything that can be of any use in my E-mail, I will be very happy.
You are teaching me a lot about myself too 🙂 I have along road
ahead…..To be a better persone…
I have two terrible defects of character: I can still get sometimes  upset
for a short time and I have an enormous difficulty to resist to the fatal
attraction of a nice ass (at least in thought). I am working on it !! Could
be my paleolictc diet and this dam snake brain I can’t control !!
You are not realy hostile, you are defending yourself because you think
maybee that I am attacking you  or your life style.

Tomorrow, I have to go to the funeral of a young man that I ‘ ve known for
years, in fact, I use to spend entire evening drinking with Him. He was
taller then most of people, beautiful, very bright, gay, speaking several
language, naturaly elegant, and always, naturaly,  the center of the
attention . Last night he OD. They said on purpose, a suicide…. he had
everything to shape is life and he was stuck, for years  between two hip
bars and his home.One of my employe found him on his sofa . I could nt
remember his name , and  he couldn ‘t   either !! I was ashame of my own
inconsideration and in my incapacity in helping him. I could’nt remember his
name !

Another lost soul….
God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Preston : Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Francis wrote >* Sorry Preston, It was the son of Faith. My son is in
Boston, never used
any drugz whatsoever,honour studend, double major… the all nine yard. He
like to drink only Mate.:-)<

I totally apologize. Later reading through that someone called you “guy”
or
“dad,” something like that, and I realized then that I was confusing you
with someone else.
Please let me take back my hostile email, and extend a personal
apology
to you for my crass email.
I have to stop doing that. I’ve been letting things get to me and
chosing to react like I’ve got a huge chip on my shoulder, and it’s not
helping me nor anyone here onlist, my being an angry prick.
So again, please do accept my apologies, as I allowed myself to fly
off
the handle, yet again, with little provocation.
I hereby make a promise to at least TRY to refrain from doing that so
often, as I seem to be doing as of late, or at the very least try to cut
it
way, way down.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Preston : Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Hi Preston !! 🙂

You wrote :  >

From what I’ve seen, you haven’t anything to do with ibogaine
whatsoever,
other than to throw vile hostility at some of us.

*How do you know I have nothing to do do with Ibogaine ? You will be
surprise 🙂

*Sorry, this is not vile hostility at all, at the contrary, trust me !!

You wrote :
You’ve mentioned a son who’s strung out and looking for help, but I
can’t
recall you ever saying,

* Sorry Preston, It was the son of Faith. My son is in Boston, never
used
any drugz whatsoever,honour studend, double major… the all nine yard.
He
like to drink only Mate.:-)

You wrote:
I have experience with one- addiction of my own,

*Sorry . one more time,  Preston, I had to fight my own addiction . I
was
a
binge alcoholic and I am still a smoker . By the way , I smoke heroine
one
time and very fresh opium. Never got addicted because I didn’t try
twice.
🙂  Too good IMHO !
and it’was probably not in my Karma to fight a dragon.

* Now , regarding my E-Mail. Ron asked a question. Should I lie to him ?
This is only my opinion. Nothing less, nothing more. I have nothing
against
you or this group.If you read my email OT Carla, you will know my exact
position on Drugz or addiction. By the way, my idea work on depression,
self
estime and a lot more..

Why I am here 🙂 ….. good question 🙂 Preston, I love  you man 🙂
You are a very special man, very smart; you should had figure it out  by
now
😉

God bless
Francis

and two- that I have any exerience with ibogaine myself, or three, have
much
of anything nice, constructive, or positive to say to much of anyone,”
but
do see from you things along the lines of, “I do like to cast blanket
accusations and innuendos,” at times in so many words- in most posts
actually. You also like to sound superior and haughty without any basis
of
anything you’ve told us whatsoever, at least not that I’ve noticed.
Why are you here again? What are you looking for other than that
special
feeling one might get after firing off another nasty note to the list
full
of addicts and users?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list, and from the Ibonauts
who
“contribute” to the list. I believe that they are seeking to be abble
to
continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They don’t give a shit of
being
sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay around long .That’s my
humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release
from
opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.
maybe
i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked
right
by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about
prices,
but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the
people
that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons
of
shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make
decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before
I
had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for
the
train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look
at
the
hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I
can’t
wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info
about
lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a
small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative
term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny
apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame
because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m
coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a
cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the
list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 7, 2005 at 7:12:50 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Has anyone taken ibogaine and NOT seen aliens?<

The “aliens” I saw all appeared human to me, just living on other planets. I did see one “being” that might be called alien, but not in any sort of the modern classic sense that I could see- more of a big evil cloud of sorts, as well as one that looked like a great big larva or something.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 07 February 2005 18:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

In a message dated 2/7/05 12:16:26 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

>yesyesyes, I too was very in space, astral is a good word for it. I >still
>get an amazing feeling whenever I see video or tv shows about
space today.
>I’ve felt vaguely similar feelings about space ever since a kid due to
>certain dreams I’ve always had, but since doing ibogaine, I really feel
>a weird connection with it, with space and the stars. It’s
strange and hard
>to put into words, but it’s still very real nonetheless.

Preston,

All theory of course but, with a significant number of persons
who have taken
iboga/ibogaine having similar experiences of traveling in/through
space and
the proposed theories that ibogaine precipitates the release of memories
including those encoded in DNA, would these memories represent
the our journey to
earth from another place, you know…all that alien stuff?

Howard

Has anyone taken ibogaine and NOT seen aliens? That would be quite
something! I saw shitloads in the Cameroun. The insects seemed the worst,
their lives were so sticky!

Nick

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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] space based ibo journey vs earthbound
Date: February 7, 2005 at 6:44:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote
Has anyone taken ibogaine and NOT seen aliens?
My ibogaine journey was distinctly earth based i was in a jungle with the elders and one MAIN eboga dude it seemed for a time.
I also saw huge erupting mountains of gargantuan or even more-so size all earthy  though.
i was also down into what we may call inner space on a molecular seeming level seeing the opposite namely the smallest tiny tiniest things that could ever exist i nicknamed them ‘nits’ and when they would appear i invariably giggled…which was confirmed by those near me post treatment as they asked what was so funny.
I also had earthbased completely nonsensical vision of myself and the little rascals on the soul-train train  from th TV show go figure???
I am one sick fuck *S*
Freak Free
Jeff

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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]  5-HTP
Date: February 7, 2005 at 6:29:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

schmoolyboy…love that name!
what about prescribed anti-depressenants Zoloft was working for me when i took it for a few months before stopping a month or so before my ibo treatment. Now i am thinking of going back on to help me get my ass in gear again.
Thansk for you input on this and so many other things!
FF
Jeff

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 6:30:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 21:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hey Nick,

Do you think it would be a good idea for the medical
ibogaine peeps to come up with a short Medical
Ibogaine pamplet (skipping the romantisism part), to
get the medic’s & Doc’s up to speed a little bit with
what they are dealing with.  Perhaps this could help
the Medical professionals do their job more
effectively if something came up, to aid communication
between those caring for the patient.  Who knows…

Cheers,
Jason

Hi Jason,

Yeah, for sure. I mean we put out quite a lot of material in the UK in the
late nineties and early 0ties. Booklets, websites, conferences. The thing
is…my feeling is that doctors don’t take so much notice of what comes to
them outside of the proper channels they have for communication – pharm
company info, peer-reviewed journals, etc. Though, for sure, as ibogaine
gains in stature, doctors working around drug-users will have to start
learning about it. What were you thinking of?

Nick

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From: “khalimist” <khalimist@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Other therapuetic uses of Ibo
Date: February 7, 2005 at 1:39:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I see much written about Ibo as a treatment for alcohol and heroin addiction
but have seen little with regards to other uses. Are there any reports of
succesful Ibo therapy when pitted against neurotic disorders like anorexia,
bulimia, depression, ocd, etc? Can anyone point me to literature?

km

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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork,was astral travel, now 12th planet?
Date: February 7, 2005 at 6:25:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mindvoxians
Lee wrote:

The idea of Aliens began to fascinate me after my first journey with eboga. At the time I truely believed it was a celestial joke. Now I am pretty convinced it is not.<<

and then Lee continued…

I saw the ships coming to earth in my first journey and then in my 3rd journey I saw a kind of transfer of knowledge between the heavens (aliens) and an ape species.<<

Which immediatly zoned me over to a great late night post string cheese incident pyschodelic, informal, off the cuff “class and lecture” by a great crystal hunter i know there, in a great warm smoked out telluride condo, we learned all about the 12th planet and all of  the studies of Zecharia Sitchine

of which I greatly para-phrase a revelent part here

“The Nibiruans allegedly landed on Earth, colonized it, mining the Earth for gold – [metaphor for alchemy – the transmutation of consciousness] – and other minerals, who establishing a spaceport in what today is the Iraq-Iran region – [Interesting that we went to war in that area] – linked to Sumer – and lived in a kind of idealistic society as a small colony. These aliens allegedly created a human slave-race to work their mines, farms, and other enterprises.
-They allegedly created Man, Homo Sapiens, through genetic manipulation with themselves and ape man Homo Erectus.

Now i am not a full 12th planet disciple by any means ! But the similarity between Lee’s post and his experience of alien and ape species transferance of knowledge, seems, well a bit Eboga to me!
The universal mystery of how it all happened- who came first and from where.Well Zecharia Sitchine says it is all been written down many many years ago and he has been poo pooed by the best but his knowledge of ancient text is second to none (and accepted as such) and  not only seem to reveal much that cannot be proved it has also revealed much informatiom that we can prove and some of that before the tools to prove it even existeed.
Can Eboga be a window into this sort of knowledge…the most basic questions….creation and  origin…seems to need more investigation….
Freaking most Freely
Jeff
sorry if this got too out there i just felt that the statement Lee made and the statement in the Stichine writings were too “something” and wanted to throw it out to you ibonaunts

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 6:22:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 21:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Nick,

I read that too. That guy was very cool. How he does that is pure amazing (grace!). 🙂

I take your point on the danger comparison. I will have to think of that more. My general idea though is to be able to put some reality on the risk and not leave it out there with a lot of other scary things where it does not belong.

Hi Lee,

Well, personally, I don’t think it’s responsible for the media to portray underground ibogaine treatments as being without risk. So, really, whilst I’m not convinced Dr Mash’s statements are purely altruistic, I’m also fine that she makes them. The drug is dangerous when used outside of hospitals, my opinion, and it doesn’t serve anyone to tell the public it isn’t. Mostly what the medics talking to the media are concerned about, it seems, is that it’s hallucinogenic, not that it’s excessively dangerous anyway.

I simply do not want it to be negatively represented any less than it has to be.

Well, it’s in kind of a unique position. Unlicensed, hard to get hold of legally, and yet possessing immense curative potential. You have to be responsible when making statements and you’re not covered by some code of ethics due to your profession. You have to take personal responsibility for what you say and do. That’s my take.

Saying that. I believe that Eboga, which ibogaine really is, is a very intelligent system of thought among other things. Apart from the actual physical dangers I do not for a moment believe there can be any mental dangers. And, every auricle I have heard on the ibo scene says the same.

I have a guy mailing me at the moment that says ibogaine brought on psychotic episodes which are still troubling him 3.5 years later. IMO It’s totally feasible. You’re digging into the unconscious mind and where there are big packets of fear there will be mental freak-outs. There will be reactions. You’re taking someone out of a highly controlled state of consciousness, day-to-day reality, and into this wild crazy world of the unconscious mind. What I would say is that imo ibogaine is a safer exploratory tool than other tryptamines or related drugs. That it’s mentally safe, that it couldn’t drive you nuts? I couldn’t go that far. I still never heard back from the French guy, Xavier, 5 years ago. He had a wild experience and just wanted to go back for more, taking 10+ grams of Indra. What happened? Xavier – are you out there somewhere?

So, why don’t we promote that side of it for instance?

Can we not somehow define the risk in a way that puts it into proper perspective?

For me, you have to be responsible. I push the dangerous aspects to novices because I want people who aren’t going to go to a doctor to listen. And what makes them listen is the thought that if they don’t do it right they might die. I see the mind like a set of scales. People want to believe there’s a miracle cure and this is on one side. If you leave it like this they can get irresponsible. What balances this and makes them more likely to act responsibly is what you need to place on the other side – the thought that they might die. That’s how I see it.

Nick

BTW thanks for the info. It helps me to understand it a lot better. When I read it is rings very true.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 18:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

I read your mail and then attempted to kill two birds with one stone by replying to Howards.

I agree when you mention the liver tests. I am just not sure if the general public (me included) has a handle on what those tests really mean, i.e., if someone has no heart problems and appears in good physical health how likely is it that their liver would not support an ibogaine session? The state of someones liver is usually obvious from their complexion? Am I being very nieve here?

I am making this point to simply try and give people all the options in context. Yes, do the tests but if someone can do the heart and not the liver test who is not an addict or an alcoholic (for example), can they not decide for themselves based on a realistic understanding of what the liver tests actually mean? And it is this realistic understanding which I feel is missing from the warnings which are being issued re: heart and liver etc, creating perhaps an unnecessary scare.

BTW I am not advocating not doing the tests. I am simply trying to put them into a fuller context for better appreciation – if that is possible.

Lee

Hi Lee,

I also don’t know so much about the background of these tests. You need to consult with people with a better knowledge of medicine. Yes, it would be great to hear more generally.

The inquest into the death of JW in London, early 2000 found “liver failure” as a secondary cause, if I remember correctly. He’d taken approx 6g of iboga extract to try and resolve a long-term heroin and methadone addiction. My understanding is that ibogaine and its metabolites need a lot of processing in the liver and that it has to be in reasonable condition to do this. Also that many addicts have weakened livers and some may not be able to withstand the treatment. This is just what I have picked up from the ibogaine/medical grapevine, nothing else.

Personally, I can’t weaken the case for proper testing and supervision during ibogaine treatment by referring to the number of people that die through prescribed drug incidents. If I’m offering advice or a treatment then I need to be sure in myself that I can absolutely stand by what I am saying and doing because it will be me in court defending my actions in the extremely unlikely event that something should go wrong. I couldn’t stand up there and say “Well, thousands of people die because of prescribed drugs.” That wouldn’t work for me, and I doubt the judge would be so impressed either.

Related, I was intrigued to listen to the radio interview online that Howard posted a couple of days ago. The lay provider, Demetri, spoke of how, in the event of anything going wrong, he would call 911 and then leave when he could hear the sirens, leaving the ambulance crew to pick up the ibogaine patient alone. He said he’d only had to do it once. I don’t have anything against this, it’s quite rational. But I would personally find it very hard to do.

Nick

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 6:01:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/7/2005 4:45:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Do you think it would be a good idea for the medical
ibogaine peeps to come up with a short Medical
Ibogaine pamplet (skipping the romantisism part), to
get the medic’s & Doc’s up to speed a little bit with
what they are dealing with.  Perhaps this could help
the Medical professionals do their job more
effectively if something came up, to aid communication
between those caring for the patient.  Who knows…

Cheers,
Jason
Jason, I think that is a great idea. I’ve been giving all the doctors I come in contact with info on my own and all of them seem interested. Especially when they know me and see how much benefit I got from Ibogaine. I’d like to see Patrick come up with something cool we could download and then copy. I give them all the Ibogaine protocol off of Howard’s site. I’ve got a feeling that Ibogaine will not go away and all med. pro’s should know about it.    Randy

From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Rooster Wood
Date: February 7, 2005 at 5:44:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Nuclear_Weapons

So that’ll put the time Sequence in motion, I figure
everything is preperation for what is to come.

So a few people will die on a couple of ‘reality’ tv
shows, people will shrug it off and a spike in ratings
will result.  This starts /|||||||||||||||||||||||
that eventually leads to the Big Game.
We invest, as a world economy, so much time, faith ,
money, and effort into the obvious End of the World
Reality SHow.  The people triggering it didn’t mind
because they believed themselves to be enlightened, if
G=D didn’t want us to blow up the World, he wouldn’t
have given us our blessed Nukes.

Even those who didn’t beleive themselves excluded
knew it was coming, but rational thought drowns in the
animal brain frothing at the shock value of Suffering
beyond anything seen previouslly.

Starts with the kickoff to the Big Game in 5-10
years.

Or not.

/|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 7, 2005 at 4:32:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard,

The idea of Aliens began to fascinate me after my first journey with eboga. At the time I truely believed it was a celestial joke. Now I am pretty convinced it is not.

I saw the ships coming to earth in my first journey and then in my 3 rd journey I saw a kind of transfer of knowledge between the heavens (aliens) and an ape species. I spent about 1 to 2 years thinking about that and other things I had seen before I finally came to the conclusion that we must have received some kind of guardian angel or guide to help us develop rapidly above the other species (still wonder about that). In particular through the ingestion of certain plants and the suggestion of changes always coming through the mind.

Thats where I came to the conclusion that we are a human soul in an animal body developed out of this earth. All animals having spirits to begin with and us by default beginning as ape spirits becoming human souls.

I will leave it at that except to say i am a little bit stoned on marijuana which I am now taking (a little mixed with mint) to keep me off my nicotine addiction.

All the best,

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/7/05 12:16:26 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

>yesyesyes, I too was very in space, astral is a good word for it. I still
>get an amazing feeling whenever I see video or tv shows about space today.
>I’ve felt vaguely similar feelings about space ever since a kid due to
>certain dreams I’ve always had, but since doing ibogaine, I really feel
>a weird connection with it, with space and the stars. It’s strange and hard
>to put into words, but it’s still very real nonetheless.

Preston,

All theory of course but, with a significant number of persons who have taken
iboga/ibogaine having similar experiences of traveling in/through space and
the proposed theories that ibogaine precipitates the release of memories
including those encoded in DNA, would these memories represent the our journey to
earth from another place, you know…all that alien stuff?

Howard

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Nick
Date: February 7, 2005 at 4:29:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick !!
you wrote : The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar state,
hum…… :-))  LOL !!

*Look, just read one book on the Saints
Mysteries, Marvels and Miracles in the lives of the Saints
By Joan Carroll Cruz
575 pages of well documented Miracles of the Saints.
A very  fascinating discovery in the life of the Saints.

You wrote :
In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and staying
positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives you negative
feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m interested

* Actualy, this not my technique, this a technique that every human being
use everyday.
By the way, the specialist is one of your citizen :
William Bloom ” the father of the English Hollistic movement ”
If you want to read more about the subject , you can read his book : ” The
endorphine effect ”

*Yes ,this is the technique that I use everyday too stay positive and feel
good.
Why should I feel bad ? Give me a good reason ! If you are healthy, why
bother ?/!
In fact, I have a lot of fun. I work about 10 hours a day, everyday and I
have a lot of  fun living.
I  like to do magic, I t do “metal bending”, levitation and a bit of
sleight of hand. Only close magic. I am studing the technique  one of your
citizen now : Rowland, great magician. I love to make people laught , make
me and them  happy I like to help people too, so my life is fun and in fact
I am very positive, too much for some who do not me.
On the model of a club in Bombay. I would like to do  ” the laughting club
number two ”

* His no such thing as a negative feedback. It s just a feedback For the man
who send it, add the value. For me, a feedback is neutral.That my belief.
Honestly, I don’t see why should I lie to please.
I am not surprise to get some ” negative ” feedback, I get some “positive”
too.  By the way, you told me that nothing is good nothing is bad.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 7:20 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 12:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: 07 February 2005 00:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

Hi Carla !!!

I am not grouch again : ) Ron asked a question and I just told what
I
think.I have been in this list several months and I just
realize that most
of the people are still using and are fully immersed in the drugs
culture .
This is a fact. Now  I don’t have to be judgmental about that.
I am nobody
to judge .Its just a fact. I’ve read on the Ibogaine dossier
that the rate
of recovery is low and this is true.You are right, they are not
too opened
minded in AA or NA regarding Ibogaine. Too bad, I believe Ibogaine
could
realy open a window to give the time to the alcoholic or addict
to make the
change necessary in his life .
” Everything he said ( Patrick ) was about hope, belief and
having faith.”
That the point.The all point. Without hope, a profound change of
your belief
system, and faith. Is no way that an alcoholic or addict will
make it. He
will swich eventually, will control the harm but……..

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot
and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.
I am not specialy an AA man or belong specificly to a religion, I am
not
even a good christian 🙂 I believe that AA or NA will help
enormously if
the alcoholic or addict manage to stay long enought. to see the
fruits.  One
, need patience and humility.

I believe only in what’s work. The only difference beetween a Saint
in
rapture, in a complete state of Extasy and a alcoholic / addict ready
to
commit suicide is theirs  level of Endorphine . Their own
personal control
of the natural production of the pleasure molecule.We have this
natural
gift, and is the right of every leaving creature. They found even
endorphine

Francis,

The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar state. It’s
not,
imo, long-term viable to try and put people, junkies or whoever, into
this
state all day long by fiddling with their neurochemistry, whether from
the
outside with drugs, or from the inside with meditations. Nice for a bit
though.

in single cell organisme.. ….
Let me explain a bit my idea : the body produce neuropetides.in
this case
endorphine……. The neuropeptides change how the body
feels…….the new
feeling aftect our mood, our emotions, and the way we think……..
and
affects our behaviour……..
Or you can do exactly the contrary starting from your
behaviour…. the way
you think…. blabla bla
Or you can start from the way you think……. blablabla.. Here,
in the last
case we are talking about belief system 🙂

NOW, you can shortcut, artificialy and trick your brain to
change the way
you want it to fell…. ….with about the same reaction chaine
but not with
the same output as the natural process.Eventualy we can destroy our
abilities to feel pleasure naturaly and to grow in mastering our
brain.
For me this is a simple chemical and neural response that we have
to learnt
how to dominate..That all.
Forget about, psycology, and all things in…. y  .

We are what we think .

That was a long one …….. considering that I will quit
writting  in this
list this a sort of testament 🙂

In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and staying
positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives you negative
feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m interested.

Nick

Francis,

Sorry, didn’t read your last statement properly, you just mean you will
stay
on the list and not write these type of messages anymore, I guess.
Apologies
for not reading better.

love

Nick

Love
Francis

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 4:18:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Nick,

Do you think it would be a good idea for the medical
ibogaine peeps to come up with a short Medical
Ibogaine pamplet (skipping the romantisism part), to
get the medic’s & Doc’s up to speed a little bit with
what they are dealing with.  Perhaps this could help
the Medical professionals do their job more
effectively if something came up, to aid communication
between those caring for the patient.  Who knows…

Cheers,
Jason

— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
…in the event of anything going wrong, he would call
911 and then leave when he could hear the sirens,
leaving the ambulance crew to pick up the ibogaine
patient alone. He said he’d only had to do it once. I
don’t have anything against this, it’s quite rational.
But I would personally find it very hard to do.

Nick

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 4:17:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick,

I read that too. That guy was very cool. How he does that is pure amazing (grace!). 🙂

I take your point on the danger comparison. I will have to think of that more. My general idea though is to be able to put some reality on the risk and not leave it out there with a lot of other scary things where it does not belong.

I simply do not want it to be negatively represented any less than it has to be.

Saying that. I believe that Eboga, which ibogaine really is, is a very intelligent system of thought among other things. Apart from the actual physical dangers I do not for a moment believe there can be any mental dangers. And, every auricle I have heard on the ibo scene says the same.

So, why don’t we promote that side of it for instance?

Can we not somehow define the risk in a way that puts it into proper perspective?

BTW thanks for the info. It helps me to understand it a lot better. When I read it is rings very true.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 18:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

I read your mail and then attempted to kill two birds with one stone by replying to Howards.

I agree when you mention the liver tests. I am just not sure if the general public (me included) has a handle on what those tests really mean, i.e., if someone has no heart problems and appears in good physical health how likely is it that their liver would not support an ibogaine session? The state of someones liver is usually obvious from their complexion? Am I being very nieve here?

I am making this point to simply try and give people all the options in context. Yes, do the tests but if someone can do the heart and not the liver test who is not an addict or an alcoholic (for example), can they not decide for themselves based on a realistic understanding of what the liver tests actually mean? And it is this realistic understanding which I feel is missing from the warnings which are being issued re: heart and liver etc, creating perhaps an unnecessary scare.

BTW I am not advocating not doing the tests. I am simply trying to put them into a fuller context for better appreciation – if that is possible.

Lee

Hi Lee,

I also don’t know so much about the background of these tests. You need to consult with people with a better knowledge of medicine. Yes, it would be great to hear more generally.

The inquest into the death of JW in London, early 2000 found “liver failure” as a secondary cause, if I remember correctly. He’d taken approx 6g of iboga extract to try and resolve a long-term heroin and methadone addiction. My understanding is that ibogaine and its metabolites need a lot of processing in the liver and that it has to be in reasonable condition to do this. Also that many addicts have weakened livers and some may not be able to withstand the treatment. This is just what I have picked up from the ibogaine/medical grapevine, nothing else.

Personally, I can’t weaken the case for proper testing and supervision during ibogaine treatment by referring to the number of people that die through prescribed drug incidents. If I’m offering advice or a treatment then I need to be sure in myself that I can absolutely stand by what I am saying and doing because it will be me in court defending my actions in the extremely unlikely event that something should go wrong. I couldn’t stand up there and say “Well, thousands of people die because of prescribed drugs.” That wouldn’t work for me, and I doubt the judge would be so impressed either.

Related, I was intrigued to listen to the radio interview online that Howard posted a couple of days ago. The lay provider, Demetri, spoke of how, in the event of anything going wrong, he would call 911 and then leave when he could hear the sirens, leaving the ambulance crew to pick up the ibogaine patient alone. He said he’d only had to do it once. I don’t have anything against this, it’s quite rational. But I would personally find it very hard to do.

Nick

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 7, 2005 at 3:57:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 07 February 2005 18:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

In a message dated 2/7/05 12:16:26 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

yesyesyes, I too was very in space, astral is a good word for it. I still
get an amazing feeling whenever I see video or tv shows about
space today.
I’ve felt vaguely similar feelings about space ever since a kid due to
certain dreams I’ve always had, but since doing ibogaine, I really feel
a weird connection with it, with space and the stars. It’s
strange and hard
to put into words, but it’s still very real nonetheless.

Preston,

All theory of course but, with a significant number of persons
who have taken
iboga/ibogaine having similar experiences of traveling in/through
space and
the proposed theories that ibogaine precipitates the release of memories
including those encoded in DNA, would these memories represent
the our journey to
earth from another place, you know…all that alien stuff?

Howard

Has anyone taken ibogaine and NOT seen aliens? That would be quite
something! I saw shitloads in the Cameroun. The insects seemed the worst,
their lives were so sticky!

Nick

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 3:55:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 18:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Hi Nick,

I read your mail and then attempted to kill two birds with one stone by replying to Howards.

I agree when you mention the liver tests. I am just not sure if the general public (me included) has a handle on what those tests really mean, i.e., if someone has no heart problems and appears in good physical health how likely is it that their liver would not support an ibogaine session? The state of someones liver is usually obvious from their complexion? Am I being very nieve here?

I am making this point to simply try and give people all the options in context. Yes, do the tests but if someone can do the heart and not the liver test who is not an addict or an alcoholic (for example), can they not decide for themselves based on a realistic understanding of what the liver tests actually mean? And it is this realistic understanding which I feel is missing from the warnings which are being issued re: heart and liver etc, creating perhaps an unnecessary scare.

BTW I am not advocating not doing the tests. I am simply trying to put them into a fuller context for better appreciation – if that is possible.

Lee

Hi Lee,

I also don’t know so much about the background of these tests. You need to consult with people with a better knowledge of medicine. Yes, it would be great to hear more generally.

The inquest into the death of JW in London, early 2000 found “liver failure” as a secondary cause, if I remember correctly. He’d taken approx 6g of iboga extract to try and resolve a long-term heroin and methadone addiction. My understanding is that ibogaine and its metabolites need a lot of processing in the liver and that it has to be in reasonable condition to do this. Also that many addicts have weakened livers and some may not be able to withstand the treatment. This is just what I have picked up from the ibogaine/medical grapevine, nothing else.

Personally, I can’t weaken the case for proper testing and supervision during ibogaine treatment by referring to the number of people that die through prescribed drug incidents. If I’m offering advice or a treatment then I need to be sure in myself that I can absolutely stand by what I am saying and doing because it will be me in court defending my actions in the extremely unlikely event that something should go wrong. I couldn’t stand up there and say “Well, thousands of people die because of prescribed drugs.” That wouldn’t work for me, and I doubt the judge would be so impressed either.

Related, I was intrigued to listen to the radio interview online that Howard posted a couple of days ago. The lay provider, Demetri, spoke of how, in the event of anything going wrong, he would call 911 and then leave when he could hear the sirens, leaving the ambulance crew to pick up the ibogaine patient alone. He said he’d only had to do it once. I don’t have anything against this, it’s quite rational. But I would personally find it very hard to do.

Nick

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re; cravings?
Date: February 7, 2005 at 1:53:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 07/02/2005 07:30:06 GMT Standard Time, kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk writes:
> Hi,
>
> I am now in my 11th week after ingesting Iboga. No
> desire for methadone what so ever, no real desire
> for heroin,..though there has been a few moments
> of thought,..at times,.. though not very strong, and
> I forget about it within seconds.

THat is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 7, 2005 at 1:30:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/7/05 12:16:26 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

yesyesyes, I too was very in space, astral is a good word for it. I still
get an amazing feeling whenever I see video or tv shows about space today.
I’ve felt vaguely similar feelings about space ever since a kid due to
certain dreams I’ve always had, but since doing ibogaine, I really feel
a weird connection with it, with space and the stars. It’s strange and hard
to put into words, but it’s still very real nonetheless.

Preston,

All theory of course but, with a significant number of persons who have taken
iboga/ibogaine having similar experiences of traveling in/through space and
the proposed theories that ibogaine precipitates the release of memories
including those encoded in DNA, would these memories represent the our journey to
earth from another place, you know…all that alien stuff?

Howard

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 1:16:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick,

I read your mail and then attempted to kill two birds with one stone by replying to Howards.

I agree when you mention the liver tests. I am just not sure if the general public (me included) has a handle on what those tests really mean, i.e., if someone has no heart problems and appears in good physical health how likely is it that their liver would not support an ibogaine session? The state of someones liver is usually obvious from their complexion? Am I being very nieve here?

I am making this point to simply try and give people all the options in context. Yes, do the tests but if someone can do the heart and not the liver test who is not an addict or an alcoholic (for example), can they not decide for themselves based on a realistic understanding of what the liver tests actually mean? And it is this realistic understanding which I feel is missing from the warnings which are being issued re: heart and liver etc, creating perhaps an unnecessary scare.

BTW I am not advocating not doing the tests. I am simply trying to put them into a fuller context for better appreciation – if that is possible.

Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 10:08
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Dear List,

Welcome to all the newcomers!

I couldn’t help but respond to this article posted by Preston. It ties right into something I am giving thought to at the moment and that is the “demonisation of ibogaine.” By not presenting the facts in proper context I think we are all, to some extent, guilty of the same. In doing so we arm those who advocate against the present underground use of ibogaine.

From: Author: Matthew Parris

In 21st-century Europe the cries of the well-intentioned brigade of  precaution-mongers have become all too familiar. “Better err on the side  of caution!” they parrot; “One-death-is-a-death-too-many!” ………………..

Challenged over their carelessness with the truth, the sanctimony of the precaution-mongers is prodigious. They love the word “responsible”; “if it saves one life . . .” they squawk, casting a reproachful glance in your direction and  tut-tutting about “irresponsibility”………………………………

I was reading through the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy, Lotsof et al. and was left with the question: apart from heart disease and the taking of opiates during a session, what exactly are the dangers of taking ibogaine and how do they stack up against a whole host of common drugs and illicit party drugs? (BTW – does an autopsy reveal death by overdose from heroin?) For someone with a heart condition which is more dangerous: a hundred meter sprint or an ibogaine session? Should the hundred meter sprint be demonised? What are the long term health benefits of ibogaine? Is penicillin also a dangerous drug? Should it be demonised also?

The more you try to ratchet up public anxiety in hopes of protecting a few by misinforming the many, the more the public’s indifference to official information is ratcheted up in response. ………… Drugs do kill; but exaggeration kills too.

As in: If one takes a sample group of 1,000 regular drug users without heart problems what would the death rate be if this group were to take ibogaine over a five year period as opposed to another group that continued its regular drug use?

We live in a culture of litigation and rather cry wolf than have anyone point a finger at us for the cause of anyone’s death. Yet, this fear does a great disservice to the community and allows “official” treatment providers to claim that the underground community is operating a very shady service indeed even though heart tests and liver tests are standard and more than likely entirely sufficient, not to mention saving lives!

I think perhaps some of us need to get out of the closet with ibogaine and represent it better. I include myself in that.

Lee

Hey Lee,

Nice to hear from you. I wonder, could you let us know what concrete measures you are actually recommending? Is it that providers should become more open about their work, and that they take on the claims of scientists, such as Dr Mash, that underground treatments are dangerous?

Personally, I don’t think there’s much more anyone can do. I have an ibo-warning on my site at www.ibogaine.co.uk/info.htm and I’m happy it’s there. For me, taken casually it is dangerous. For me I think ibogaine is developing well, given the political climate and all the prejudice in the press and that.

love

Nick

ps – BTW, you don’t mention the liver, which for a lot of addicts isn’t in such good shape.

BTW I posted a page on mini-sessions on my web-site and encourage anyone interested in low-dose sessions as part of post-treatment or self-exploration, to find a trusted friend and go for it.

http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 12:58:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Firstly, I want to say your manual is an excellent resource and one which I have read a number of times to try and get my head around the issues. I would also add that in the right hands your manual is a powerful advocate for the responsible use of ibogaine. The existence of your manual actually lessens the ability of “respectable” scientists to demonise the underground movement more than it already is.

The paragraph you quoted is one I entirely agree with. In fact in the UK recently there was a similar report:

According to a recent study by the University of Liverpool, up to 10,000 people per year in England alone could be dying from the taking of commonly prescribed drugs. The researchers estimated that adverse reactions to prescribed drugs causing hospital admission were responsible for the deaths of 5,700 patients a year in England. Taking into account incidents occurring while patients were in hospital and admissions together, the figure could be greater than 10,000 a year.

I made the post in order to try and bring the issue to a head as it is one which I think troubles a lot of people. It troubles me when I see people worrying themselves that they might die from taking ibogaine having taken proper precautions etc. It also troubles me when I listen to interviews that exploit the lack of medical credentials and play up on the cases of death which have taken place. Its very distorted and very bad press.

In reponse to your question and that posed by Nick, what automatically springs to mind is the use of a Provider’s Charter where the major precautions are adhered to, i.e., anyone who subscribes to the Charter is making a statement that they adher to those precautions – thus significantly reducing the risk factor to not much more than being on a course of antibiotics perhaps???? Of course if those precautions are not adhered too, ibogaine can be fatal. So can a lot of other everyday accepted things.

These precautions should be chosen so that when followed the remaining likely risks are shown to be negligible in the context of the risks of other over the counter commonly used drugs (for example..). This then gives the public a bench mark upon which to decide and it also sends out a message to the general public of the safety and the enormous benefits that derive from its proper use. (Personally I think the issue of a client’s psychiatric health is one for the provider to consider on a case to case basis and I dont believe it poses a life and death issue.) It can also be refered to in a statistical manner in any further interviews on the subject between the press and the underground and in fact be part of a PR package. For example: Ibogaine is less toxic than aspirin and on and on….. We need a better response to the press imo.

If aspirin were not legal and being used for underground work the science would look threatening to anyone unfamiliar with its meaning and that is what we need to surmount imo regarding ibogaine, imo.

What I think we need to show to the public is that by using a safety protocol which is practical and not too demanding, a Provider’s Charter, with the right backup, the provision of ibogaine by lay healers is in fact pretty much every bit as safe and much more cost effective than in the hospital. Where some degree of risk “may” exist as opposed to the hospital this is outweighed by the number of lives saved due to the lower cost and the benefit to the experience of the set and setting not usually afforded in a hospital environment. Also, this extra risk should be stated in comparison to the usual risks people are taking with prescription and non prescription medications every day.

Just a few ideas. I would have to think on this longer but I think my email gives the drift of what I am trying to say.

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/7/05 5:08:58 AM, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:

>I was reading through the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy, Lotsof et al. and
>was left with the question: apart from heart disease and the taking of
>opiates during a session, what exactly are the dangers of taking ibogaine
>and how do they stack up against a whole host of common drugs and illicit
>party drugs? (BTW – does an autopsy reveal death by overdose from heroin?)
>For someone with a heart condition which is more dangerous: a hundred meter
>sprint or an ibogaine session? Should the hundred meter sprint be demonised?
>What are the long term health benefits of ibogaine? Is penicillin also
>a dangerous drug? Should it be demonised also?

>The more you try to ratchet up public anxiety in hopes of protecting a
>few by misinforming the many, the more the public’s indifference to official
>information is ratcheted up in response. ………… Drugs do kill; but
exaggeration
>kills too.

>As in: If one takes a sample group of 1,000 regular drug users without
>heart problems what would the death rate be if this group were to take
>ibogaine over a five year period as opposed to another group that continued
>its regular drug use?
>
>
Hi Lee,

The Manual for Ibogaine Therapy attempts to place ibogaine-related fatalities
in some perspective.

“The safety of Ibogaine treated patients is the primary objective of this
document. Reported Ibogaine-related problems or fatalities might very likely be
avoided if simple screening, dosing and monitoring guidelines are adhered to.
However, this must be taken in some context as, in 1999 there were 116,000 drug
related fatalities in United States hospitals associated with FDA approved
medications.” http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html

I don’t believe that ibogaine is more dangerous than many other drugs and I
do believe it is a lot less dangerous than some. However, once involved with
regulatory development of a drug/medication and that was what I proposed for
ibogaine in order to make it available to a lot of people who would benefit one
is required to indicate risks and benefits.

As for those damning the ibogaine/iboga underground/non medical treatments I
think you have to look at the source of those statements and that there is
both the reality of risk and concurrent competitive market issues.

How would you make it better?

Howard

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 7, 2005 at 12:09:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, Ibo gave me the sensation of astral travel.  I
remember at one point I was flying through an asteroid
field, and could actually make out the texture of the
asteroids, and almost run my hand over their surfaces.<

yesyesyes, I too was very in space, astral is a good word for it. I still get an amazing feeling whenever I see video or tv shows about space today. I’ve felt vaguely similar feelings about space ever since a kid due to certain dreams I’ve always had, but since doing ibogaine, I really feel a weird connection with it, with space and the stars. It’s strange and hard to put into words, but it’s still very real nonetheless.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

Randy,

Yes, Ibo gave me the sensation of astral travel.  I
remember at one point I was flying through an asteroid
field, and could actually make out the texture of the
asteroids, and almost run my hand over their surfaces.

I also saw faces, many faces, of tribal elders(at
least it seemed that way).  The first time I did Ibo,
they floated in from the left, and exited to the
right.  The second time I Ibo’ed, it was right to
left.

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 7, 2005 at 11:31:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie, this is great. You know, when I did it they came from left to right too. Now you have me wanting to see if the second time it’s the opposite. I’m going to Sara’s in the next few years to find out. I hope Ibogaine never takes my out of body experiences away ’cause they Rock, and I wouldn’t miss ’em for the world.            Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Preston : Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 7, 2005 at 11:20:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis wrote >* Sorry Preston, It was the son of Faith. My son is in Boston, never used
any drugz whatsoever,honour studend, double major… the all nine yard. He
like to drink only Mate.:-)<

I totally apologize. Later reading through that someone called you “guy” or “dad,” something like that, and I realized then that I was confusing you with someone else.
Please let me take back my hostile email, and extend a personal apology to you for my crass email.
I have to stop doing that. I’ve been letting things get to me and chosing to react like I’ve got a huge chip on my shoulder, and it’s not helping me nor anyone here onlist, my being an angry prick.
So again, please do accept my apologies, as I allowed myself to fly off the handle, yet again, with little provocation.
I hereby make a promise to at least TRY to refrain from doing that so often, as I seem to be doing as of late, or at the very least try to cut it way, way down.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Preston : Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Hi Preston !! 🙂

You wrote :  >

From what I’ve seen, you haven’t anything to do with ibogaine whatsoever,
other than to throw vile hostility at some of us.

*How do you know I have nothing to do do with Ibogaine ? You will be
surprise 🙂

*Sorry, this is not vile hostility at all, at the contrary, trust me !!

You wrote :
You’ve mentioned a son who’s strung out and looking for help, but I can’t
recall you ever saying,

* Sorry Preston, It was the son of Faith. My son is in Boston, never used
any drugz whatsoever,honour studend, double major… the all nine yard. He
like to drink only Mate.:-)

You wrote:
I have experience with one- addiction of my own,

*Sorry . one more time,  Preston, I had to fight my own addiction . I was a
binge alcoholic and I am still a smoker . By the way , I smoke heroine one
time and very fresh opium. Never got addicted because I didn’t try twice.
🙂  Too good IMHO !
and it’was probably not in my Karma to fight a dragon.

* Now , regarding my E-Mail. Ron asked a question. Should I lie to him ?
This is only my opinion. Nothing less, nothing more. I have nothing against
you or this group.If you read my email OT Carla, you will know my exact
position on Drugz or addiction. By the way, my idea work on depression, self
estime and a lot more..

Why I am here 🙂 ….. good question 🙂 Preston, I love  you man 🙂
You are a very special man, very smart; you should had figure it out  by now
😉

God bless
Francis

and two- that I have any exerience with ibogaine myself, or three, have
much
of anything nice, constructive, or positive to say to much of anyone,” but
do see from you things along the lines of, “I do like to cast blanket
accusations and innuendos,” at times in so many words- in most posts
actually. You also like to sound superior and haughty without any basis of
anything you’ve told us whatsoever, at least not that I’ve noticed.
Why are you here again? What are you looking for other than that
special
feeling one might get after firing off another nasty note to the list full
of addicts and users?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list, and from the Ibonauts
who
“contribute” to the list. I believe that they are seeking to be abble to
continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They don’t give a shit of
being
sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay around long .That’s my
humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —– From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release
from
opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.
maybe
i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —– From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked
right
by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices,
but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people
that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of
shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make
decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I
had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the
train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at
the
hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t
wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about
lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny
apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m
coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the
list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Astral Travel (Randy, Julie)
Date: February 7, 2005 at 10:05:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 07 February 2005 14:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Astral Travel (Randy, Julie)

Hey Julie, in a response to a question Randy asked (which I missed) you mentioned that the Ibogaine gave you the sensation of astral travel. Have you noticed it is easier to project after doing Ibogaine? I do not think I ever would of given much thought to astral projection or O.B.E.’s if I didn’t experience sleep paralysis and that serious buzzing sensation when I was a kid. I had no idea what it was and it scared the heck out of me. When I got older I read somewhere about what it is like to have an O.B.E. and thought, ‘Wow, so that’s what that was.’ I still am not sure if I believe it is some kind of spiritual thing or just the brain doing it’s thing at sleep, but it is really remarkable how I’ve had all these experiences without ever reading about them, and then later had those experiences corroborated by other people. Does anybody on the list have experience with this stuff, or notice that it is easier or harder to project after Ibogaine? Also, if anybody has a good website on th e subject, that’d be cool. Laura

Personally, I found that taking ibogaine stopped my astral experiences. Previously I used to get them a lot in my early thirties if I was stressing a lot when I went to sleep. I would seem to wake up then realize I was in this other body pulsing with energy. The experience seemed to get rid of the stress. Anyway, they stopped after ibogaine and I figure it had an effect.

Nick

— On Mon 02/07, Ms Iboga < ms_iboga@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: Ms Iboga [mailto: ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:55:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

Randy,

Yes, Ibo gave me the sensation of astral travel. I
remember at one point I was flying through an asteroid
field, and could actually make out the texture of the
asteroids, and almost run my hand over their surfaces.

I also saw faces, many faces, of tribal elders(at
least it seemed that way). The first time I did Ibo,
they floated in from the left, and exited to the
right. The second time I Ibo’ed, it was right to
left.

Julie

__________________________________________________
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 10:05:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/7/05 5:08:58 AM, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:

I was reading through the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy, Lotsof et al. and
was left with the question: apart from heart disease and the taking of
opiates during a session, what exactly are the dangers of taking ibogaine
and how do they stack up against a whole host of common drugs and illicit
party drugs? (BTW – does an autopsy reveal death by overdose from heroin?)
For someone with a heart condition which is more dangerous: a hundred meter
sprint or an ibogaine session? Should the hundred meter sprint be demonised?
What are the long term health benefits of ibogaine? Is penicillin also
a dangerous drug? Should it be demonised also?

The more you try to ratchet up public anxiety in hopes of protecting a
few by misinforming the many, the more the public’s indifference to official
information is ratcheted up in response. ………… Drugs do kill; but
exaggeration
kills too.

As in: If one takes a sample group of 1,000 regular drug users without
heart problems what would the death rate be if this group were to take
ibogaine over a five year period as opposed to another group that continued
its regular drug use?

Hi Lee,

The Manual for Ibogaine Therapy attempts to place ibogaine-related fatalities
in some perspective.

“The safety of Ibogaine treated patients is the primary objective of this
document. Reported Ibogaine-related problems or fatalities might very likely be
avoided if simple screening, dosing and monitoring guidelines are adhered to.
However, this must be taken in some context as, in 1999 there were 116,000 drug
related fatalities in United States hospitals associated with FDA approved
medications.” http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html

I don’t believe that ibogaine is more dangerous than many other drugs and I
do believe it is a lot less dangerous than some.  However, once involved with
regulatory development of a drug/medication and that was what I proposed for
ibogaine in order to make it available to a lot of people who would benefit one
is required to indicate risks and benefits.

As for those damning the ibogaine/iboga underground/non medical treatments I
think you have to look at the source of those statements and that there is
both the reality of risk and concurrent competitive market issues.

How would you make it better?

Howard

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 9:47:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 10:08
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine

Dear List,

Welcome to all the newcomers!

I couldn’t help but respond to this article posted by Preston. It ties right into something I am giving thought to at the moment and that is the “demonisation of ibogaine.” By not presenting the facts in proper context I think we are all, to some extent, guilty of the same. In doing so we arm those who advocate against the present underground use of ibogaine.

From: Author: Matthew Parris

In 21st-century Europe the cries of the well-intentioned brigade of  precaution-mongers have become all too familiar. “Better err on the side  of caution!” they parrot; “One-death-is-a-death-too-many!” ………………..

Challenged over their carelessness with the truth, the sanctimony of the precaution-mongers is prodigious. They love the word “responsible”; “if it saves one life . . .” they squawk, casting a reproachful glance in your direction and  tut-tutting about “irresponsibility”………………………………

I was reading through the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy, Lotsof et al. and was left with the question: apart from heart disease and the taking of opiates during a session, what exactly are the dangers of taking ibogaine and how do they stack up against a whole host of common drugs and illicit party drugs? (BTW – does an autopsy reveal death by overdose from heroin?) For someone with a heart condition which is more dangerous: a hundred meter sprint or an ibogaine session? Should the hundred meter sprint be demonised? What are the long term health benefits of ibogaine? Is penicillin also a dangerous drug? Should it be demonised also?

The more you try to ratchet up public anxiety in hopes of protecting a few by misinforming the many, the more the public’s indifference to official information is ratcheted up in response. ………… Drugs do kill; but exaggeration kills too.

As in: If one takes a sample group of 1,000 regular drug users without heart problems what would the death rate be if this group were to take ibogaine over a five year period as opposed to another group that continued its regular drug use?

We live in a culture of litigation and rather cry wolf than have anyone point a finger at us for the cause of anyone’s death. Yet, this fear does a great disservice to the community and allows “official” treatment providers to claim that the underground community is operating a very shady service indeed even though heart tests and liver tests are standard and more than likely entirely sufficient, not to mention saving lives!

I think perhaps some of us need to get out of the closet with ibogaine and represent it better. I include myself in that.

Lee

Hey Lee,

Nice to hear from you. I wonder, could you let us know what concrete measures you are actually recommending? Is it that providers should become more open about their work, and that they take on the claims of scientists, such as Dr Mash, that underground treatments are dangerous?

Personally, I don’t think there’s much more anyone can do. I have an ibo-warning on my site at www.ibogaine.co.uk/info.htm and I’m happy it’s there. For me, taken casually it is dangerous. For me I think ibogaine is developing well, given the political climate and all the prejudice in the press and that.

love

Nick

ps – BTW, you don’t mention the liver, which for a lot of addicts isn’t in such good shape.

BTW I posted a page on mini-sessions on my web-site and encourage anyone interested in low-dose sessions as part of post-treatment or self-exploration, to find a trusted friend and go for it.

http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Astral Travel (Randy, Julie)
Date: February 7, 2005 at 9:44:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Julie, in a response to a question Randy asked (which I missed) you mentioned that the Ibogaine gave you the sensation of astral travel. Have you noticed it is easier to project after doing Ibogaine? I do not think I ever would of given much thought to astral projection or O.B.E.’s if I didn’t experience sleep paralysis and that serious buzzing sensation when I was a kid. I had no idea what it was and it scared the heck out of me. When I got older I read somewhere about what it is like to have an O.B.E. and thought, ‘Wow, so that’s what that was.’ I still am not sure if I believe it is some kind of spiritual thing or just the brain doing it’s thing at sleep, but it is really remarkable how I’ve had all these experiences without ever reading about them, and then later had those experiences corroborated by other people. Does anybody on the list have experience with this stuff, or notice that it is easier or harder to project after Ibogaine? Also, if anybody has a good website on the subject, that’d be cool. Laura

— On Mon 02/07, Ms Iboga < ms_iboga@yahoo.com > wrote:
From: Ms Iboga [mailto: ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:55:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

Randy,

Yes, Ibo gave me the sensation of astral travel. I
remember at one point I was flying through an asteroid
field, and could actually make out the texture of the
asteroids, and almost run my hand over their surfaces.

I also saw faces, many faces, of tribal elders(at
least it seemed that way). The first time I did Ibo,
they floated in from the left, and exited to the
right. The second time I Ibo’ed, it was right to
left.

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 7, 2005 at 8:55:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy,

Yes, Ibo gave me the sensation of astral travel.  I
remember at one point I was flying through an asteroid
field, and could actually make out the texture of the
asteroids, and almost run my hand over their surfaces.

I also saw faces, many faces, of tribal elders(at
least it seemed that way).  The first time I did Ibo,
they floated in from the left, and exited to the
right.  The second time I Ibo’ed, it was right to
left.

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla
Date: February 7, 2005 at 7:20:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 07 February 2005 12:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: 07 February 2005 00:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

Hi Carla !!!

I am not grouch again : ) Ron asked a question and I just told what I
think.I have been in this list several months and I just
realize that most
of the people are still using and are fully immersed in the drugs
culture .
This is a fact. Now  I don’t have to be judgmental about that.
I am nobody
to judge .Its just a fact. I’ve read on the Ibogaine dossier
that the rate
of recovery is low and this is true.You are right, they are not
too opened
minded in AA or NA regarding Ibogaine. Too bad, I believe Ibogaine could
realy open a window to give the time to the alcoholic or addict
to make the
change necessary in his life .
” Everything he said ( Patrick ) was about hope, belief and
having faith.”
That the point.The all point. Without hope, a profound change of
your belief
system, and faith. Is no way that an alcoholic or addict will
make it. He
will swich eventually, will control the harm but……..

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.
I am not specialy an AA man or belong specificly to a religion, I am not
even a good christian 🙂 I believe that AA or NA will help
enormously if
the alcoholic or addict manage to stay long enought. to see the
fruits.  One
, need patience and humility.

I believe only in what’s work. The only difference beetween a Saint in
rapture, in a complete state of Extasy and a alcoholic / addict ready to
commit suicide is theirs  level of Endorphine . Their own
personal control
of the natural production of the pleasure molecule.We have this natural
gift, and is the right of every leaving creature. They found even
endorphine

Francis,

The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar state. It’s not,
imo, long-term viable to try and put people, junkies or whoever, into this
state all day long by fiddling with their neurochemistry, whether from the
outside with drugs, or from the inside with meditations. Nice for a bit
though.

in single cell organisme.. ….
Let me explain a bit my idea : the body produce neuropetides.in
this case
endorphine……. The neuropeptides change how the body
feels…….the new
feeling aftect our mood, our emotions, and the way we think…….. and
affects our behaviour……..
Or you can do exactly the contrary starting from your
behaviour…. the way
you think…. blabla bla
Or you can start from the way you think……. blablabla.. Here,
in the last
case we are talking about belief system 🙂

NOW, you can shortcut, artificialy and trick your brain to
change the way
you want it to fell…. ….with about the same reaction chaine
but not with
the same output as the natural process.Eventualy we can destroy our
abilities to feel pleasure naturaly and to grow in mastering our brain.
For me this is a simple chemical and neural response that we have
to learnt
how to dominate..That all.
Forget about, psycology, and all things in…. y  .

We are what we think .

That was a long one …….. considering that I will quit
writting  in this
list this a sort of testament 🙂

In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and staying
positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives you negative
feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m interested.

Nick

Francis,

Sorry, didn’t read your last statement properly, you just mean you will stay
on the list and not write these type of messages anymore, I guess. Apologies
for not reading better.

love

Nick

Love
Francis

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/

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla
Date: February 7, 2005 at 7:11:46 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: 07 February 2005 00:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

Hi Carla !!!

I am not grouch again : ) Ron asked a question and I just told what I
think.I have been in this list several months and I just realize that most
of the people are still using and are fully immersed in the drugs
culture .
This is a fact. Now  I don’t have to be judgmental about that. I am nobody
to judge .Its just a fact. I’ve read on the Ibogaine dossier that the rate
of recovery is low and this is true.You are right, they are not too opened
minded in AA or NA regarding Ibogaine. Too bad, I believe Ibogaine could
realy open a window to give the time to the alcoholic or addict
to make the
change necessary in his life .
” Everything he said ( Patrick ) was about hope, belief and having faith.”
That the point.The all point. Without hope, a profound change of
your belief
system, and faith. Is no way that an alcoholic or addict will make it. He
will swich eventually, will control the harm but……..

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.
I am not specialy an AA man or belong specificly to a religion, I am not
even a good christian 🙂 I believe that AA or NA will help enormously if
the alcoholic or addict manage to stay long enought. to see the
fruits.  One
, need patience and humility.

I believe only in what’s work. The only difference beetween a Saint in
rapture, in a complete state of Extasy and a alcoholic / addict ready to
commit suicide is theirs  level of Endorphine . Their own personal control
of the natural production of the pleasure molecule.We have this natural
gift, and is the right of every leaving creature. They found even
endorphine

Francis,

The “saint in rapture” is just in the high of a bi-polar state. It’s not,
imo, long-term viable to try and put people, junkies or whoever, into this
state all day long by fiddling with their neurochemistry, whether from the
outside with drugs, or from the inside with meditations. Nice for a bit
though.

in single cell organisme.. ….
Let me explain a bit my idea : the body produce neuropetides.in this case
endorphine……. The neuropeptides change how the body
feels…….the new
feeling aftect our mood, our emotions, and the way we think…….. and
affects our behaviour……..
Or you can do exactly the contrary starting from your
behaviour…. the way
you think…. blabla bla
Or you can start from the way you think……. blablabla.. Here,
in the last
case we are talking about belief system 🙂

NOW, you can shortcut, artificialy and trick your brain to change the way
you want it to fell…. ….with about the same reaction chaine
but not with
the same output as the natural process.Eventualy we can destroy our
abilities to feel pleasure naturaly and to grow in mastering our brain.
For me this is a simple chemical and neural response that we have
to learnt
how to dominate..That all.
Forget about, psycology, and all things in…. y  .

We are what we think .

That was a long one …….. considering that I will quit
writting  in this
list this a sort of testament 🙂

In this technique that you have developed for feeling good and staying
positive, is it that when someone criticizes you or gives you negative
feedback you just get out of the situation? I’m interested.

Nick

Love
Francis

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 7, 2005 at 7:01:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Fair enough, sounds good. Though I’m intrigued as to how he could know what stress ibogaine might place on your body. Has he heard of the drug? But it sounds like you’re in good health anyway. Are you still looking for someone experienced to sit with you? I would like to do it but I just can’t free up the time. If the other people in the UK I’ve got listed online can’t make it either then you are still left with doing it with a friend. Do you know anyone who would be up for it?

love   Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com]
Sent: 06 February 2005 20:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Nick

I went to docs and told him what I wanted to do (ibogaine) he said my heart and liver are fine and im in good health, he did not see the need to carry out ECG and liver function as I have had no problem in the past and I am of good health.
Love Donnaxx

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Demonising Ibogaine
Date: February 7, 2005 at 5:08:09 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear List,

Welcome to all the newcomers!

I couldn’t help but respond to this article posted by Preston. It ties right into something I am giving thought to at the moment and that is the “demonisation of ibogaine.” By not presenting the facts in proper context I think we are all, to some extent, guilty of the same. In doing so we arm those who advocate against the present underground use of ibogaine.

From: Author: Matthew Parris

In 21st-century Europe the cries of the well-intentioned brigade of  precaution-mongers have become all too familiar. “Better err on the side  of caution!” they parrot; “One-death-is-a-death-too-many!” ………………..

Challenged over their carelessness with the truth, the sanctimony of the precaution-mongers is prodigious. They love the word “responsible”; “if it saves one life . . .” they squawk, casting a reproachful glance in your direction and  tut-tutting about “irresponsibility”………………………………

I was reading through the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy, Lotsof et al. and was left with the question: apart from heart disease and the taking of opiates during a session, what exactly are the dangers of taking ibogaine and how do they stack up against a whole host of common drugs and illicit party drugs? (BTW – does an autopsy reveal death by overdose from heroin?) For someone with a heart condition which is more dangerous: a hundred meter sprint or an ibogaine session? Should the hundred meter sprint be demonised? What are the long term health benefits of ibogaine? Is penicillin also a dangerous drug? Should it be demonised also?

The more you try to ratchet up public anxiety in hopes of protecting a few by misinforming the many, the more the public’s indifference to official information is ratcheted up in response. ………… Drugs do kill; but exaggeration kills too.

As in: If one takes a sample group of 1,000 regular drug users without heart problems what would the death rate be if this group were to take ibogaine over a five year period as opposed to another group that continued its regular drug use?

We live in a culture of litigation and rather cry wolf than have anyone point a finger at us for the cause of anyone’s death. Yet, this fear does a great disservice to the community and allows “official” treatment providers to claim that the underground community is operating a very shady service indeed even though heart tests and liver tests are standard and more than likely entirely sufficient, not to mention saving lives!

I think perhaps some of us need to get out of the closet with ibogaine and represent it better. I include myself in that.

Lee

BTW I posted a page on mini-sessions on my web-site and encourage anyone interested in low-dose sessions as part of post-treatment or self-exploration, to find a trusted friend and go for it.

http://www.my-eboga.com/minisessions.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla
Date: February 7, 2005 at 3:55:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi francis, so we basically agree.
the whole concept of faith belief and saintliness is too roman-catholic for my taste but if it works for you that is great. in christianity i like this mystic meister eckhart who i was named after while you seem to be more into st francis, btw i doubt if this “wringing out the light” is an original quote, what does it mean?
don´t you want to tell us about your experience with ibo? have you tried it to stop smoking?
cheers ekki

Am 07.02.2005 um 04:35 schrieb The Garden:

In fact at I did’nt make any distinction : a junky could be tomorrow a
Saint.
In fact , you have all kind of  Saint  Knights, Magistrate, drunk,mother of
five, killers , so on and so on
—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.

it doesn´t make any sense to make a distinction between a saint and a
junky. i think i even met some who are both. a saint should be ready to
die anytime and why would he need hope belief and faith anymore?

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re; cravings?
Date: February 7, 2005 at 3:38:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes as well as other factors, one of the main ones is not being around dope.

—– Original Message —– From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re; cravings?

That’s awesome Jasen 🙂  Did you find Set & Setting
to be a factor in the success of your treatment?

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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hwy 190 Tolls ControL Con’s & Troll’s
Date: February 7, 2005 at 3:18:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Message from my days of Biological Slavery:

Ma;yn h0ld ^
I g0t t00 muc(H) l e a n  ‘n mY Cup.

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re; cravings?
Date: February 7, 2005 at 2:29:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s awesome Jasen 🙂  Did you find Set & Setting
to be a factor in the success of your treatment?

— Jasen Chamoun <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Hi,

I am now in my 11th week after ingesting Iboga. No
desire for methadone what so ever, no real desire
for heroin,..though there has been a few moments
of thought,..at times,.. though not very strong, and
I forget about it within seconds.

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re; cravings?
Date: February 7, 2005 at 12:17:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

I am now in my 11th week after ingesting Iboga. No desire for methadone what so ever, no real desire for heroin,..though there has been a few moments
of thought,..at times,.. though not very strong, and I forget about it within seconds.

Cigarettes have been very tempting. I think of having a cigarette more than Heroin,..actually a lot more, there is no real comparison between the two.
I am in a lot more situations where people are smoking around me, or I am having a coffee at a coffee shop and then feel like having a cigarette.
(I don’t even really enjoy the coffee anymore)

When I was on the methadone or using I did not like alcohol, I felt it took away some of the opiate vibe, like it ate away at whatever opiates I had inside me.
Now, I love a red wine with a good meal, I like to have a beer now and again. I won’t drink every day, just every second day (only kidding) 🙂 .I’m making
myself laugh here, No really, if there’s  wine at the table whilst having a meal with friends I will have some, or I am offered a beer on a hot afternoon, I’ll have
one.This is normally when I feel like smoking.

I am smoking pot, mainly late afternoon or evening, it grounds me at the moment. Smoking pot does not start any cravings for me,..it simply helps my body
cope with the change it is going through and relaxes me,..aaaand the music is better. :). It will be interesting in a month or so, when I am even stronger in
health to not smoke pot for a while and see the difference in the clarity of mind.

I have noticed that the last week has been a lot easier,..like I have jumped to the next step of healing. Mmmm,…hope so.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list, and from the Ibonauts who “contribute” to the list. I believe that they are seeking to be abble to continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They don’t give a shit of being sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay around long .That’s my humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron

 

From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate
Date: February 6, 2005 at 11:21:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

a mayan and an european are on a plane, sitting across the way from each
other.. in the middle of the way someone dropped sum cash. the mayan looks
over to the european and asked “is that euro money or mayan money?”

ba da BAM

Oh yehh I’ve always wanted to try that but keep forgetting
If you are interested, I have a recipe for Chilli Chocolate brownies! I
confess, I haven’t tried them yet, but I was going to bake them for a
café!
Just never quite got the ok to do it!!
Anyway, let me know….
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, 5 February 2005 3:31 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate

HI list,

I recently contacted my provider in order to get some
tips on how to, well, feel better.  She suggested
having a Mayan Hot Chocolate once a day, especially
during the winter.  For those of you who haven’t seen
the movie Chocolat, Mayan hot chocolate is basically
hot chocolate with chilis in it.

List, this stuff rocks!  It really gives you a boost,
and I swear it’s a natural aphrodisiac.  There are a
couple of recipes online, but they seem pretty
complicated.  Just make hot chocolate with milk only,
and add dried, crushed red chili peppers according to
taste. YUM!

love Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “Iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 6, 2005 at 10:47:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve heard that it has been used in those places by Shaman to obtain vision, how come if th potency is so low? Is there a special way to use it?
THX
Peace and Harmony

—–Message d’origine—–
De : The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Envoyé : 6 février 2005 22:41
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : Re: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

Hi !!
and in Madagascar, in the Tulear area. I believe. South East. In fact I think that voacanga is a malgashy word.
At least it sound like.
F
—– Original Message —–
From: Iboga_planteur
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

Sorry, this plant grows in west-Africa 😉

—–Message d’origine—–
De : Schmoolyboy@aol.com [mailto:Schmoolyboy@aol.com]
Envoyé : 6 février 2005 19:37
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

The Ibo content in this plant group which grows in central/south america is so low as to be of little value in extracting Ibo for treatment.

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 6, 2005 at 10:40:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi !!
and in Madagascar, in the Tulear area. I believe. South East. In fact I think that voacanga is a malgashy word.
At least it sound like.
F
—– Original Message —–
From: Iboga_planteur
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

Sorry, this plant grows in west-Africa 😉

—–Message d’origine—–
De : Schmoolyboy@aol.com [mailto:Schmoolyboy@aol.com]
Envoyé : 6 février 2005 19:37
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

The Ibo content in this plant group which grows in central/south america is so low as to be of little value in extracting Ibo for treatment.

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla
Date: February 6, 2005 at 10:35:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In fact at I did’nt make any distinction : a junky could be tomorrow a
Saint.
In fact , you have all kind of  Saint  Knights, Magistrate, drunk,mother of
five, killers , so on and so on
—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.

it doesn´t make any sense to make a distinction between a saint and a
junky. i think i even met some who are both. a saint should be ready to
die anytime and why would he need hope belief and faith anymore?

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From: “Iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 6, 2005 at 10:33:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry, this plant grows in west-Africa 😉

—–Message d’origine—–
De : Schmoolyboy@aol.com [mailto:Schmoolyboy@aol.com]
Envoyé : 6 février 2005 19:37
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

The Ibo content in this plant group which grows in central/south america is so low as to be of little value in extracting Ibo for treatment.

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla
Date: February 6, 2005 at 10:28:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi !
A Saint is always ready to die. To be ready to die , he need a lot of
faith and  hope for  a better place..
I love to read about Saints and miracle. Some came from very weird place.
Their where not born Saint.

They have a very strong belief and an incredible faith.

God bless
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.

it doesn´t make any sense to make a distinction between a saint and a
junky. i think i even met some who are both. a saint should be ready to
die anytime and why would he need hope belief and faith anymore?

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla
Date: February 6, 2005 at 9:20:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.

it doesn´t make any sense to make a distinction between a saint and a junky. i think i even met some who are both. a saint should be ready to die anytime and why would he need hope belief and faith anymore?

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT…. Jasen.,.,
Date: February 6, 2005 at 9:01:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hehheh, got Scotty working on that right now! One problem, he’s a darn Scots
and right into the Scotch!!! Must get him on Ibogaine!! Lmao
Damn, you haven’t heard of JBT???  Wow, go get some, it’s great music.  You
may have heard his song Zebra it’s real popular at the moment on rock
stations.  He also sings a hard case song about Treat Yo Mama (with respect,
or I’ll smack you upside down the head) talking bout Mama Earth, yeh, he’s
cool!
I’m bad, cos I’m broke and I downloaded a whole heap of his songs off Lime
Wire, but will buy albums when I got the dough!! I like supporting the
artist.
Anyhoo, hope it’s all good over the ditch
Kirk

—–Original Message—–
From: Jasen Chamoun [mailto:jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Monday, 7 February 2005 2:46 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT…. Jasen.,.,

Hey Capt’

How you doing Kirk?

I can’t say I have heard of “John Butler Trio”

If he is a pot smoking laid back Ausie with eco
warrior tendensies,..aaand with great musical
ability,..then he is alright by me!

Hey girl,..when ya gonna beem me over!

loving ya,
Jasen.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT…. Jasen.,.,

Hi Jasen,
I’ve just recently gotten into the music of John Butler Trio, do you know
his story? My first impression is that he’s a laid back, pot smoking
aussie
with eco-warrior tendencies!! And great musical ability
Kirk

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT…. Jasen.,.,
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:45:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Capt’

How you doing Kirk?

I can’t say I have heard of “John Butler Trio”

If he is a pot smoking laid back Ausie with eco
warrior tendensies,..aaand with great musical
ability,..then he is alright by me!

Hey girl,..when ya gonna beem me over!

loving ya,
Jasen.

—– Original Message —– From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT…. Jasen.,.,

Hi Jasen,
I’ve just recently gotten into the music of John Butler Trio, do you know
his story? My first impression is that he’s a laid back, pot smoking aussie
with eco-warrior tendencies!! And great musical ability
Kirk

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT Anti-depressants…alternatives
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:10:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Was filling a prescription for Aropax and while waiting I purused the shelves to see what she had.  She’s got a whole shelf full of natural/alternative goodies, including 5 HTP and another with 5 htp and L-tryptophan.  Will discuss it with her next visit to see what her opinion is and how I could go about converting.
Thanks for tips about the other stuff!
Kirk

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT…. Jasen.,.,
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:10:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen,
I’ve just recently gotten into the music of John Butler Trio, do you know
his story? My first impression is that he’s a laid back, pot smoking aussie
with eco-warrior tendencies!! And great musical ability
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Jasen Chamoun [mailto:jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Friday, 4 February 2005 1:55 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey

Hey Randy,

Maaate I sure wish I could make it to New York also.

It would cost you about $2000 in air fares to get to Aus.
Of course,..you would stay with me so no accommodation costs
for you my bro’,…so,..when you arriving…. 🙂

I live by myself,..my choice,..so bro,..plenty of room.

I would love to see the states,..and will,..just don’t know when.
I hope by the end of the year.

Listening to David Bowie.

Love ya mate,
Jasen.

Jasen, I sure wish you could make it to New York for the conference. Of
course I can understand  how much it would cost. I just was wondering how
much it
would take to get to Australia, and the mind boggles at the price. It’s
great
to see the love flowing in your words.             Randy

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OTFT :How many group posters does it take to chan…
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:10:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Answer:- Depends how much Ibogaine they have access too!!!
lol
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net] 
Sent: Friday, 4 February 2005 2:28 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTFT :How many group posters does it take to chan…

I like this definition :
An underground leaf bud enwrapped in fleshy scales or coats.
” how long it take, for a bulb to loose all his scales?
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OTFT :How many group posters does it take to chan…

No, dear Randy, it’s when you have a bad Daffodil growing year and all your bulbs are “light”. The heavier the better as this means it contains better and bigger Daffs.
(Bulb Technician)
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, 4 February 2005 8:50 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to chan…

What’s a light bulb? Is that the thing that hangs over your head when you have an idea?      R

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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:10:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oh yehh I’ve always wanted to try that but keep forgetting
If you are interested, I have a recipe for Chilli Chocolate brownies! I
confess, I haven’t tried them yet, but I was going to bake them for a café!
Just never quite got the ok to do it!!
Anyway, let me know….
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, 5 February 2005 3:31 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate

HI list,

I recently contacted my provider in order to get some
tips on how to, well, feel better.  She suggested
having a Mayan Hot Chocolate once a day, especially
during the winter.  For those of you who haven’t seen
the movie Chocolat, Mayan hot chocolate is basically
hot chocolate with chilis in it.

List, this stuff rocks!  It really gives you a boost,
and I swear it’s a natural aphrodisiac.  There are a
couple of recipes online, but they seem pretty
complicated.  Just make hot chocolate with milk only,
and add dried, crushed red chili peppers according to
taste. YUM!

love Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:10:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Scarlett, and anyone else that doesn’t want us in their mailbox anymore, FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE EMAIL!!!!
It’s really simple….
All the best
Kirk
From: Scarlett111967@aol.com [mailto:Scarlett111967@aol.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 5 February 2005 3:47 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate

please stop e-mailing me!!!! unsubscribe me now!!!!

–
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004

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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork/set & setting
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:28:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would say that the setting matters. When I did my Ibogaine, the provider had a nurse come into the room and light a candle to give the room atmosphere. At some point I ended up throwing my pillow (because it had this awful antiseptic smell, which oddly enough I couldn’t smell any more after the Ibogaine wore off) off the bed, and I hadn’t realized that it landed on the candle! Right when things started getting really strange I saw the pillow on the candle and spent precious Ibo time trying to clean up the wax and worrying about a fire. That could have been a serious freaking disaster! The room blazing up around me while I am trying to have a good Ibo trip. It’s funny to think about now, but it scared me then. Also, the smell of the pillow, which I mentioned above, would break into my visuals. The heart monitor cords that were stuck all over my body kept driving me nuts also, and by the end of the trip I had ripped them all off. The nurse had to keep coming into the room to check on me, and that would distract me also, because I would switch from an inward perspective, to thinking about wether or not I was doing anything crazy due to the Ibogaine. Now I wonder why I cared, if dancing around the room and howling like a monkey would have been beneficial, who cares what the nurse thinks, but it’s hard to control what you feel. On the good side, there was this beautiful material hanging on the ceiling with a nice design and when I first started tripping, it helped me to start the visuals by looking for patterns in the design. Everything turned out okay in the end and I had an amazing and immensely helpful time but I think the setting could change the way everything turns out, especially if you are being distracted all the time or if you are uncomfortable. I know the provider was trying everything possible to ensure a successful journey, and it’s impossible to know what could annoy somebody, so it’s probably a hard call trying to decide the right setting (I just wouldn’t suggest any candles unless they are out of the way!!!)
Laura

— On Sun 02/06, ekki < ekkijdfg@gmx.de > wrote:

From: ekki [mailto: ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 01:25:58 +0100
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork/set & setting

there have been experiments with ketamin and lsd in isolation tanks by
this dolphin resaercher lilly were you float in salt water.

for lsd the setting is surly important, but i think with ibogain its
not so much. at least i took it in a untidy room stuffed with old books
and furniture during daytime but since i just layed in bed with eyes
covered traveling in another world it didnīt matter.

what do you guys think, is there an approriate setting/surrounding for
ibogaine or doesnīt it matter?

Am 07.02.2005 um 01:11 schrieb Jasen Chamoun:

> Yeah,..count me in matey.
> —– Original Message —–
> From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
>
> Julie, I have been looking at E mails that I missed while working up a
> gig with a new drummer. The 3 D rule applied here. Drunk Drummers
> Drag. I mean, come on man, it’s the blues, it drags as it is, do a
> line or something. LOL Anyway, your art work gave me a chill to my
> spine. I was there. It looks like they took you on a ride right after
> they took me. I never saw the faces, just space, so thanx for showing
> them to me. Did you feel like you were moving through space like I
> did? Man that was cool. Can you imagine doing Ibogaine floating
> weightless in space? Somebody has got to do that sometime. Volunteers
> anyone? Randy

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Preston : Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:23:07 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston !! 🙂

You wrote :  >

From what I’ve seen, you haven’t anything to do with ibogaine whatsoever,
other than to throw vile hostility at some of us.

*How do you know I have nothing to do do with Ibogaine ? You will be
surprise 🙂

*Sorry, this is not vile hostility at all, at the contrary, trust me !!

You wrote :
You’ve mentioned a son who’s strung out and looking for help, but I can’t
recall you ever saying,

* Sorry Preston, It was the son of Faith. My son is in Boston, never used
any drugz whatsoever,honour studend, double major… the all nine yard. He
like to drink only Mate.:-)

You wrote:
I have experience with one- addiction of my own,

*Sorry . one more time,  Preston, I had to fight my own addiction . I was a
binge alcoholic and I am still a smoker . By the way , I smoke heroine one
time and very fresh opium. Never got addicted because I didn’t try twice.
🙂  Too good IMHO !
and it’was probably not in my Karma to fight a dragon.

* Now , regarding my E-Mail. Ron asked a question. Should I lie to him ?
This is only my opinion. Nothing less, nothing more. I have nothing against
you or this group.If you read my email OT Carla, you will know my exact
position on Drugz or addiction. By the way, my idea work on depression, self
estime and a lot more..

Why I am here 🙂 ….. good question 🙂 Preston, I love  you man 🙂
You are a very special man, very smart; you should had figure it out  by now
😉

God bless
Francis

and two- that I have any exerience with ibogaine myself, or three, have
much
of anything nice, constructive, or positive to say to much of anyone,” but
do see from you things along the lines of, “I do like to cast blanket
accusations and innuendos,” at times in so many words- in most posts
actually. You also like to sound superior and haughty without any basis of
anything you’ve told us whatsoever, at least not that I’ve noticed.
Why are you here again? What are you looking for other than that
special
feeling one might get after firing off another nasty note to the list full
of addicts and users?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list, and from the Ibonauts
who
“contribute” to the list. I believe that they are seeking to be abble to
continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They don’t give a shit of
being
sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay around long .That’s my
humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release
from
opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.
maybe
i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked
right
by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices,
but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people
that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of
shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make
decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I
had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the
train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at
the
hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t
wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about
lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny
apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m
coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the
list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] giving a shit about sobriety
Date: February 6, 2005 at 7:57:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Ron, after I did Ibogaine I never had a daily habit again, and that was almost 2 years ago. However, I am on suboxone, and I know to some people that is like being on dope still. So, since I am technically still on opiates, this may not be the experience you are looking for, but I have noticed that for me, alcohol, if I don’t get drunk, is not a problem. Sometimes, when I am craving a little heroin nod, if I drink a beer I can mellow out and forget about getting high. However, if I drink too much and surpass the buzzed stage to drunkenness, then it’s easier for me to talk myself into getting high, but if I make it through to the next day I don’t really feel like doing dope anymore. So, if I stay away from getting drunk I am okay. 

I don’t know how I’d feel about a totally and completely stark raving sober life. I love life, and sometimes it feels great to get a buzz. I don’t mean the running from your past and future by getting high or drunk every waking moment, but the occasional feeling good and mellow head space. I definitely don’t get that from the suboxone, so every once in awhile I have a beer or two, or some wine/sake and it’s nice. So to answer the question of do I try to stay away from just opiates or from everything that could possibly alter my mind, my answer is that I try to stay away from neither. I don’t shoot up anymore, and I definitely don’t drink everyday, but I am trying to maintain my optimum level of happiness in life, and that includes a little buzz every once in awhile, and lately I can get that from a beer instead of dope. But that’s just me, and I hope that answers your question, at least a little.

And to whomever gave that little smidgen of wisdom about some of us not giving a damn about sobriety, well maybe that’s true. I would rather have a few beers and relax, then go around being a jerk and getting down on everybody else for not living the high and mighty road of crabby-assed sobriety. I definitely have no problem with people who don’t touch drugs or alcohol, I just have trouble with the ones with try to make every one else feel bad for living life their own way. Laura




— On Sun 02/06, Ron Davis < rwd3@cox.net > wrote:
From: Ron Davis [mailto: rwd3@cox.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:53:46 -0600
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

text should read, if i drink or take other recreational drugs, then it usually leads me to take opiates: hence the question, are most ibonauts trying for complete sobriety or to just avoid opiates? thanks, ron, no opinion on the issue, just curious
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other. maybe i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices, but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at the hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i donīt know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] sobriety (was: Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn)
Date: February 6, 2005 at 7:54:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

since my addictions ended 7 weeks ago i once swilled down some diazepam with vodka last week. it was ok but no need to do it again. its not long since i´m clean but i feel completely stable. spending time with chain-smokers didn´t make me consider having a cigarette. i watched someone using h and was repeatedly offered to take some, too, but didn´t want to.

i lost interest to use drugs when i was still using. at the end i only took opiates and soporifics. then i didn´t want to buy more of that stuff so i drank booze against withdrawals, depression, sleeplessness and hangovers until the post-ibo-transformation happened.

i don´t feel i have to avoid anything, but i feel i´m done with coke,h and nicotine. but who knows what happens in future? the thing is i have different interests now than getting high. i just can repeat that ibogaine caused so marvelous changes inside myself and my life. it was the greatest christmas present i ever got. if there will be another problem with addiction in future i will use ibo again.

Ron, do you feel graving for opiates is triggered by alcohol or does it reduce willpower to stay away from opiates? did you take the ibo?
ekki

Am 06.02.2005 um 23:53 schrieb Ron Davis:

text should read, if i drink or take other recreational drugs, then it usually leads me to take opiates: hence the question, are most ibonauts trying for complete sobriety or to just avoid opiates?  thanks, ron, no opinion on the issue, just curious
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron

From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 6, 2005 at 7:36:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The Ibo content in this plant group which grows in central/south america is so low as to be of little value in extracting Ibo for treatment.

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: to Carla
Date: February 6, 2005 at 7:30:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Carla !!!

I am not grouch again : ) Ron asked a question and I just told what I
think.I have been in this list several months and I just realize that most
of the people are still using and are fully immersed in the drugs culture .
This is a fact. Now  I don’t have to be judgmental about that. I am nobody
to judge .Its just a fact. I’ve read on the Ibogaine dossier that the rate
of recovery is low and this is true.You are right, they are not too opened
minded in AA or NA regarding Ibogaine. Too bad, I believe Ibogaine could
realy open a window to give the time to the alcoholic or addict to make the
change necessary in his life .
” Everything he said ( Patrick ) was about hope, belief and having faith.”
That the point.The all point. Without hope, a profound change of your belief
system, and faith. Is no way that an alcoholic or addict will make it. He
will swich eventually, will control the harm but……..

IMHO the only difference beetwen a Saint and a junky ready to shoot and
maybee to die , lie in three words, hope belief and faith.
I am not specialy an AA man or belong specificly to a religion, I am not
even a good christian 🙂 I believe that AA or NA will help enormously if
the alcoholic or addict manage to stay long enought. to see the fruits.  One
, need patience and humility.

I believe only in what’s work. The only difference beetween a Saint in
rapture, in a complete state of Extasy and a alcoholic / addict ready to
commit suicide is theirs  level of Endorphine . Their own personal control
of the natural production of the pleasure molecule.We have this natural
gift, and is the right of every leaving creature. They found even endorphine
in single cell organisme.. ….
Let me explain a bit my idea : the body produce neuropetides.in this case
endorphine……. The neuropeptides change how the body feels…….the new
feeling aftect our mood, our emotions, and the way we think…….. and
affects our behaviour……..
Or you can do exactly the contrary starting from your behaviour…. the way
you think…. blabla bla
Or you can start from the way you think……. blablabla.. Here, in the last
case we are talking about belief system 🙂

NOW, you can shortcut, artificialy and trick your brain to change the way
you want it to fell…. ….with about the same reaction chaine but not with
the same output as the natural process.Eventualy we can destroy our
abilities to feel pleasure naturaly and to grow in mastering our brain.
For me this is a simple chemical and neural response that we have to learnt
how to dominate..That all.
Forget about, psycology, and all things in…. y  .

We are what we think .

That was a long one …….. considering that I will quit writting  in this
list this a sort of testament 🙂

Love
Francis

Francis you’re being a grouch again 😉 If you’re
married you need to say sorry to your wife, whatever
the reason she’s upset it’s probably your own fault
usually men are always to blame 😉

I’m kidding in case anyone is reading this and thinks
I’m serious! 🙂

Don’t mean to be nosy but everything on this list is
public, so I am wondering what is your own story? Did
you clean up and stay clean after ibogaine, if that
isn’t the case what is it that you want to see
happening?

I used to post here a huge amount when I was first
getting clean and this list helped me more then I can
express. I was on methadone again for the upteenth
time when I found this list and found out about
ibogaine. I found ibogaine through Heroin Times when
Patrick used to have at least a article in every issue
about ibogaine. I started reading more and ended up
showing his writing to my counselors, my psychiatrist
and the people at the methadone clinic I was going to
and even the 12 step groups I attended.

Out of all those people I think there were 2 at most
who were even open minded and curious what ibogaine
was, everyone else who read it said it was a fantasy
and the person writing the words would never stay
clean and needed to attend a lot of meetings 😉

What changed everything for me was a combination of
ibogaine, what Patrick was writing every month as he
first got clean and I love those old articles because
he was, how do you say supersmart, really really mad
at drug treatment and crazy, in a positive way? 🙂
🙂 Everything he said was about hope, belief and
having faith. That and the people on this list, which
was the only place I ever found that was not
judgmental and accepted people and there was always
someone who would talk to you or help in some way,
instead of telling me why everything I was doing was
wrong and I was just some addict.

I did ibogaine once and didn’t last long. The big
difference between this place right now and back then
is that it’s much much much bigger now and people come
on, talk about doing ibogaine and then go do it,
instead of talking about how they want to do it but
never can.

Ibogaine worked for me but I didn’t do what I needed
to do to take care of me and relapsed and kept
relapsing. I did it a second time and since then I
have stayed completely sober. I do smoke pot once in a
while, I do have wine with dinner, I have a life and I
haven’t ever found the 12 step dogma that any drug is
all the same thing, to be true for me.

Sorry but 2 glasses of wine or a joint, have never led
me to liquor stores with my last $10 dollars I had to
hustle, at 2AM. Neither one has led me to even having
alcohol in my house. Neither one has ever led me back
to heroin or smoking crack.

I go to 12 step meetings once in a while, I don’t know
why exactly because its not like I ever get any
acceptance or hope there, in fact the opposite, I have
personally found that most 12 step people consider
ibogaine to be another drug and won’t even listen
about that. What I think I get by going to a meeting
is a strong reminder of where I never want to be again
and people who’s lives I don’t want to be living and a
reminder of how grateful I need to be for what I have
right now.

I’ve been here for nearly 4 years and out of all the
people who post here who have done ibogaine as far as
I know more then half of them are either clean or
doing their best to stay that way. I haven’t yet heard
from anyone here who likes to do ibogaine and goes
back to doing heroin or crack and thinks that’s great
and then posts about it. When people do that, I’m not
saying they don’t, in fact I think mostly a lot of
people do after the first few times, but they don’t
stick around and post about it here, they go back to
doing drugs.

This list is as non traditional as you can get, but
then there are thousands of self help lists and 12
step places online and I’m seeing more and more
ibogaine mentions in opiate forums online too. Nobody
ever stays at any of those places though, there is
always a few messages and then it goes back to
nothing. The only place that stays alive and keeps
growing is here.

I think Patrick posted something about that some
months ago, that he can make as many lists as people
want and there was talk of doing a after ibogaine
staying sober list, but then it was cancelled because
what happens is that nobody posts on any of them and
everyone goes back to this list.

If you want to have a 12 step staying clean after
ibogaine list, then I’m sure if you ask patrick for
it, he’ll make it for you, sorry if I’m volunteering
your time here patrick 😉 and you can see what
happens with it.

They did that with the sacrament list again, which was
a spiritual use of ibogaine list, I’m on it, have been
on it for 2 years now, when it first opened there was
20 messages and then nothing for a year, when it was
re announced, it had another 20 messages and unless
yahoo is throwing me off lists again or deleting my
email, there hasn’t been one message there in 2
months. Everyone comes back to this list and wants to
talk to everyone at the same time.

If what people are saying isn’t what you want to hear
or what you personally think is right, then maybe the
problem is your own expectations or what you want
people to act like and they’re dissapointing you by
not being the way you want them to be. This is the
part where you go back to the 12 steps and acknowledge
you can’t control other people who aren’t going to
become what you want them to 😉

The big difference between recovery with and without
ibogaine, in what I have seen is that there isn’t
anyone who does ibogaine and becomes worse then they
were before. some people get clean totally, some
don’t, some don’t want to, but what I think has been
true from everyone I’ve ever heard from is that their
lives get better, some faster some slower but people
keep changing.

Please know I’m not attacking you in any way, I like
your messages and get the feeling you’re a positive
person who cares about other people which is the
reason I even took my time to write this long reply
🙂

Love to everyone here

Carla B

— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list,
and from the Ibonauts who “contribute” to the list.
I believe that they are seeking to be abble to
continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They
don’t give a shit of being sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay
around long .That’s my humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday
Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total
sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion,
but
in my experience it has been one , at some point,
leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel,
Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in
the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks
Hotel and thought about going in and asking about
prices, but instead I took the illogical option and
judged the place by the people that were staying
there, and the couple that was going inside had tons
of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice.
I don’t usually make decisions based on such
silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I
had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little
alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think
I’ll check out priceline today and look at the
hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again
for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the
conference. If anybody gets anymore info about
lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet <
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto:
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel,
Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It
used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel,
another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan,
so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space
here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in
Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s
barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less
sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over
too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the
search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the
Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation
Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden
History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58
AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel,
Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is
cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference,
any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much
money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a
room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web –
http://www.myway.com

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork/set & setting
Date: February 6, 2005 at 7:25:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

there have been experiments with ketamin and lsd in isolation tanks by this dolphin resaercher lilly were you float in salt water.

for lsd the setting is surly important, but i think with ibogain its not so much. at least i took it in a untidy room stuffed with old books and furniture during daytime but since i just layed in bed with eyes covered traveling in another world it didn´t matter.

what do you guys think, is there an approriate setting/surrounding for ibogaine or doesn´t it matter?

Am 07.02.2005 um 01:11 schrieb Jasen Chamoun:

Yeah,..count me in matey.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

Julie, I have been looking at E mails that I missed while working up a gig with a new drummer. The 3 D rule applied here. Drunk Drummers Drag. I mean, come on man, it’s the blues, it drags as it is, do a line or something. LOL  Anyway, your art work gave me a chill to my spine. I was there. It looks like they took you on a ride right after they took me. I never saw the faces, just space, so thanx for showing them to me. Did you feel like you were moving through space like I did? Man that was cool. Can you imagine doing Ibogaine floating weightless in space? Somebody has got to do that sometime. Volunteers anyone?       Randy

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 6, 2005 at 7:11:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeah,..count me in matey.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork

Julie, I have been looking at E mails that I missed while working up a gig with a new drummer. The 3 D rule applied here. Drunk Drummers Drag. I mean, come on man, it’s the blues, it drags as it is, do a line or something. LOL  Anyway, your art work gave me a chill to my spine. I was there. It looks like they took you on a ride right after they took me. I never saw the faces, just space, so thanx for showing them to me. Did you feel like you were moving through space like I did? Man that was cool. Can you imagine doing Ibogaine floating weightless in space? Somebody has got to do that sometime. Volunteers anyone?       Randy

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 5:53:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

text should read, if i drink or take other recreational drugs, then it usually leads me to take opiates: hence the question, are most ibonauts trying for complete sobriety or to just avoid opiates?  thanks, ron, no opinion on the issue, just curious
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices, but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at the hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 5:45:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From what I have seen in this mailing list, and from the Ibonauts who “contribute” to the list. I believe that they are seeking to be abble to continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They don’t give a shit of being sober :-).<

From what I’ve seen, you haven’t anything to do with ibogaine whatsoever, other than to throw vile hostility at some of us.
You’ve mentioned a son who’s strung out and looking for help, but I can’t recall you ever saying, “I have experience with one- addiction of my own, and two- that I have any exerience with ibogaine myself, or three, have much of anything nice, constructive, or positive to say to much of anyone,” but do see from you things along the lines of, “I do like to cast blanket accusations and innuendos,” at times in so many words- in most posts actually. You also like to sound superior and haughty without any basis of anything you’ve told us whatsoever, at least not that I’ve noticed.
Why are you here again? What are you looking for other than that special feeling one might get after firing off another nasty note to the list full of addicts and users?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list, and from the Ibonauts who “contribute” to the list. I believe that they are seeking to be abble to continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They don’t give a shit of being sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay around long .That’s my humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —– From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —– From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices, but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at the hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 6, 2005 at 5:18:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

king of like nutmeg?
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

In a message dated 2/5/05 3:28:19 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

anyone ever tried this? it is said to contain ibogaine-like alkaloids,
is available as extract and legal everywhere, afaik

All reliable reports I have seen describe it (my words) as useless to treat
chemical dependence or for any significant exotic effects.

Howard

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] UK: Column: Yes, Heroin Can Kill, but the Doomsayers’ Lies Are Just As Dangerous
Date: February 6, 2005 at 5:16:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 6:01 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] UK: Column: Yes, Heroin Can Kill, but the Doomsayers’ Lies Are Just As Dangerous

Pubdate: Sat, 05 Feb 2005
Source: Times, The (UK)
Copyright: 2005 Times Newspapers Ltd
Contact: letters@thetimes.co.uk
Website: http://www.the-times.co.uk/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/454
Author: Matthew Parris
Note: To read some of the scaremongering the University’s research has generated in the British media, as this columnist writes, please click this link http://www.mapinc.org/topics/Glasgow+Caledonian+University
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?131 (Heroin Maintenance)
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/heroin.htm (Heroin)

YES, HEROIN CAN KILL, BUT THE DOOMSAYERS’ LIES ARE JUST AS DANGEROUS

SO SOME people can combine a heroin habit with an otherwise normal life? So what else is new? It is no discredit to Glasgow Caledonian University – but a sharp warning to the purveyors of “responsible” official information – that it takes a team of academics, a sample of 126 heroin users, many months of research, and a bill for UKP114,000 to the Scottish Executive to establish what anyone with so much as a nodding acquaintance with the problems of drug addiction should know already. So should those who have lived in the Far East. Heroin destroys some people and not others.

I have known this for about thirty years. A couple of friends have for different and extended periods of their lives been addicted to heroin. Neither is addicted now, neither would recommend the drug, but both have told me that for them and for others whom they knew, it proved possible to stabilise their use of heroin at a level that did not destroy their working or domestic lives, or appear to damage their health. The Glasgow research found that among its sample, 70 per cent of those who had used heroin for more than seven years had not experienced serious health problems as a result.

That is not to say they were not addicted. So are serious tobacco smokers and many steady drinkers. They need their daily fix; they would suffer acute withdrawal symptoms if they tried to stop it; and they would find life much less tolerable without it. This is real addiction and it is rife in our society. The list of culpable chemicals includes alcohol, tobacco, antidepressants, cocaine, crack, heroin and (arguably) marijuana, probably in something like that order of prevalence.

Not all are equally addictive and heroin is certainly among the most addictive, though I am not convinced it is more so than nicotine, a really hard drug. I have seen anguished smokers and alcoholics struggle as painfully with their habit as some heroin-users.

Nor are all equally available, which complicates the comparison; as does the fact that the use of drugs such as heroin involves the addict willy-nilly in crime; while the illegality of the drug drives the cost beyond many addicts’ reach, provoking further crime.

Heroin also suppresses hunger, so if the user turns to crime and begins to neglect himself things can spiral out of control. My guess is that loss of self-respect plays a big part, but it is difficult to establish how far this is an effect, or how far a cause, of addiction. The researchers at Glasgow Caledonian would acknowledge that men and women who are managing their habit successfully might be more likely to volunteer their story. David Shewan, the co-author of the report, has rightly said that his findings should be treated with caution.

What is undoubtedly true is that heroin is a dangerous drug, which can wreck lives. What this study shows, however, is that in the direct experience of many people, heroin does not always do so. Both truths seem to me important to know. If we believe in free speech and personal choice we should have no difficulty in agreeing that neither should be suppressed.

Which is why the response of the anti-drug “community” so depresses me. David Pentland, a drug worker, has featured in a number of media reports commenting: “To put this information out into society is totally irresponsible.” Shona Robison, the Scottish National Party’s health spokesman, called the research “a waste of money”. No media outlet I have encountered this week has felt able to publish the finding without appending to its report criticism, not of its accuracy, but of the very act of publishing it. The SNP seem to question even the commissioning of the research.

This is stupid. Official Britain should ask itself why government warnings and media scares are so often ignored, particularly by the young. Why, for instance, do you suppose that nothing any adult says about Ecstasy, no lurid headline the Daily Mail runs about the untold numbers of deaths threatened by this (now fading) drug of clubbers’ choice, seems to be taken seriously in youth culture? The answer is obvious. Because politicians, civil servants and newspapers keep telling lies and peddling distortions about drugs to scare people. Young people’s own direct experience teaches them that death or even collapse from the use of Ecstasy is unusual, and where people do collapse it is almost always because of violent abuse of the drug, dehydration or a polluted supply.

My own generation remember the American films about “reefer madness” and the propaganda we were bombarded with suggesting that one puff of marijuana would turn us into crazed monsters. We tried a puff and nothing happened. Next time we heard an official warning about drugs we took it less seriously.

But this goes beyond heroin, beyond drugs. In every area of life, “safety first” has become a reason for high-minded mendacity, and high-minded mendacity is devaluing official warnings of every kind and widening the credibility gap between authority and the commonality, about which politicians love to bleat.

In 21st-century Europe the cries of the well-intentioned brigade of precaution-mongers have become all too familiar. “Better err on the side of caution!” they parrot; “One-death-is-a-death-too-many!” These people are habitual liars. Leaflets, pamphlets, public service announcements, government advice notes and relentless punditry are their medium; alarm is their message; and whenever there could – just could – be risk to life or limb, accuracy is a secondary consideration. Challenged over their carelessness with the truth, the sanctimony of the precaution-mongers is prodigious. They love the word “responsible”; “if it saves one life . . .” they squawk, casting a reproachful glance in your direction and tut-tutting about “irresponsibility”.

But it is they who are irresponsible. Crying wolf is the greatest irresponsibility of all. Every exaggerated warning, wrongly trusted, erodes all trust; every piece of untruthful advice meant to scare undermines all official advice; every prohibition proved pointless breeds disregard of all prohibition. When our masters really do need our trust, they may find we are no longer listening.

I no longer turn off my mobile phone in aeroplanes; I just switch it to “silent”. For at least the past five years it must have been plain to all regular air passengers that if mobiles really did interfere with the electronics in the cockpit, planes would be dropping out of the sky like pheasants on a January Saturday. I no longer attend to that ritualised modern ballet, the air steward’s safety instructions, because I have never, ever, heard of a single case in which they saved a life.

I no longer divert when I see the sign “road-closed – access only” because most of the time the road is open if you navigate round a sand-heap. I no longer empty my pockets of change as instructed at security checkpoint X-ray machines, because non-ferrous metals do not seem to register. I no longer stop automatically at red traffic lights in Spain because there may be no crossroads: local councils have gained powers to install dummy-lights designed only to slow traffic.

As a pedestrian I ignore those vile galvanised steel barriers at road intersections, now erected regardless of the danger and as a matter of course. So I climb over them as a matter of course. And I have been eating food which has passed its sell-by date for at least as long as the heroin addicts in that Glasgow research have been managing their habit alongside an otherwise normal life. I smell food to decide if it is off.

The more you try to ratchet up public anxiety in hopes of protecting a few by misinforming the many, the more the public’s indifference to official information is ratcheted up in response. Yes, heroin kills; speed kills; carelessness kills. But by robbing warnings of their authority, you rob authority of its power to warn. Drugs do kill; but exaggeration kills too.

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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 4:32:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis you’re being a grouch again 😉 If you’re
married you need to say sorry to your wife, whatever
the reason she’s upset it’s probably your own fault
usually men are always to blame 😉

I’m kidding in case anyone is reading this and thinks
I’m serious! 🙂

Don’t mean to be nosy but everything on this list is
public, so I am wondering what is your own story? Did
you clean up and stay clean after ibogaine, if that
isn’t the case what is it that you want to see
happening?

I used to post here a huge amount when I was first
getting clean and this list helped me more then I can
express. I was on methadone again for the upteenth
time when I found this list and found out about
ibogaine. I found ibogaine through Heroin Times when
Patrick used to have at least a article in every issue
about ibogaine. I started reading more and ended up
showing his writing to my counselors, my psychiatrist
and the people at the methadone clinic I was going to
and even the 12 step groups I attended.

Out of all those people I think there were 2 at most
who were even open minded and curious what ibogaine
was, everyone else who read it said it was a fantasy
and the person writing the words would never stay
clean and needed to attend a lot of meetings 😉

What changed everything for me was a combination of
ibogaine, what Patrick was writing every month as he
first got clean and I love those old articles because
he was, how do you say supersmart, really really mad
at drug treatment and crazy, in a positive way? 🙂
🙂 Everything he said was about hope, belief and
having faith. That and the people on this list, which
was the only place I ever found that was not
judgmental and accepted people and there was always
someone who would talk to you or help in some way,
instead of telling me why everything I was doing was
wrong and I was just some addict.

I did ibogaine once and didn’t last long. The big
difference between this place right now and back then
is that it’s much much much bigger now and people come
on, talk about doing ibogaine and then go do it,
instead of talking about how they want to do it but
never can.

Ibogaine worked for me but I didn’t do what I needed
to do to take care of me and relapsed and kept
relapsing. I did it a second time and since then I
have stayed completely sober. I do smoke pot once in a
while, I do have wine with dinner, I have a life and I
haven’t ever found the 12 step dogma that any drug is
all the same thing, to be true for me.

Sorry but 2 glasses of wine or a joint, have never led
me to liquor stores with my last $10 dollars I had to
hustle, at 2AM. Neither one has led me to even having
alcohol in my house. Neither one has ever led me back
to heroin or smoking crack.

I go to 12 step meetings once in a while, I don’t know
why exactly because its not like I ever get any
acceptance or hope there, in fact the opposite, I have
personally found that most 12 step people consider
ibogaine to be another drug and won’t even listen
about that. What I think I get by going to a meeting
is a strong reminder of where I never want to be again
and people who’s lives I don’t want to be living and a
reminder of how grateful I need to be for what I have
right now.

I’ve been here for nearly 4 years and out of all the
people who post here who have done ibogaine as far as
I know more then half of them are either clean or
doing their best to stay that way. I haven’t yet heard
from anyone here who likes to do ibogaine and goes
back to doing heroin or crack and thinks that’s great
and then posts about it. When people do that, I’m not
saying they don’t, in fact I think mostly a lot of
people do after the first few times, but they don’t
stick around and post about it here, they go back to
doing drugs.

This list is as non traditional as you can get, but
then there are thousands of self help lists and 12
step places online and I’m seeing more and more
ibogaine mentions in opiate forums online too. Nobody
ever stays at any of those places though, there is
always a few messages and then it goes back to
nothing. The only place that stays alive and keeps
growing is here.

I think Patrick posted something about that some
months ago, that he can make as many lists as people
want and there was talk of doing a after ibogaine
staying sober list, but then it was cancelled because
what happens is that nobody posts on any of them and
everyone goes back to this list.

If you want to have a 12 step staying clean after
ibogaine list, then I’m sure if you ask patrick for
it, he’ll make it for you, sorry if I’m volunteering
your time here patrick 😉 and you can see what
happens with it.

They did that with the sacrament list again, which was
a spiritual use of ibogaine list, I’m on it, have been
on it for 2 years now, when it first opened there was
20 messages and then nothing for a year, when it was
re announced, it had another 20 messages and unless
yahoo is throwing me off lists again or deleting my
email, there hasn’t been one message there in 2
months. Everyone comes back to this list and wants to
talk to everyone at the same time.

If what people are saying isn’t what you want to hear
or what you personally think is right, then maybe the
problem is your own expectations or what you want
people to act like and they’re dissapointing you by
not being the way you want them to be. This is the
part where you go back to the 12 steps and acknowledge
you can’t control other people who aren’t going to
become what you want them to 😉

The big difference between recovery with and without
ibogaine, in what I have seen is that there isn’t
anyone who does ibogaine and becomes worse then they
were before. some people get clean totally, some
don’t, some don’t want to, but what I think has been
true from everyone I’ve ever heard from is that their
lives get better, some faster some slower but people
keep changing.

Please know I’m not attacking you in any way, I like
your messages and get the feeling you’re a positive
person who cares about other people which is the
reason I even took my time to write this long reply
🙂

Love to everyone here

Carla B

— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list,
and from the Ibonauts who “contribute” to the list.
I believe that they are seeking to be abble to
continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They
don’t give a shit of being sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay
around long .That’s my humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday
Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total
sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion,
but
in my experience it has been one , at some point,
leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel,
Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in
the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks
Hotel and thought about going in and asking about
prices, but instead I took the illogical option and
judged the place by the people that were staying
there, and the couple that was going inside had tons
of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice.
I don’t usually make decisions based on such
silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I
had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little
alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think
I’ll check out priceline today and look at the
hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again
for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the
conference. If anybody gets anymore info about
lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet <
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto:
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel,
Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It
used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel,
another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan,
so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space
here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in
Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s
barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less
sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over
too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the
search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the
Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation
Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden
History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58
AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel,
Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i donīt know if this is
cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference,
any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much
money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a
room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web –
http://www.myway.com

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Make My Way your home on the Web –
http://www.myway.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Clean Water <clean_wtr@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Injections into the liver are extremely painful
Date: February 6, 2005 at 3:53:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I feel it is more humane to euthanize a rat using
injection methods, as they do not like breathing in
gas anesthetic and when injections are done right on a
rat they usually cause very little discomfort.  When
anesthetizing a rat with gas, they must either be put
into a chamber, so you can’t hold them, or they must
have a mask forced over their face, which they hate.

It’s always most comforting for your rat if you can
hold him as he gently falls unconscious.  For this
reason.  When euthanasia is done correctly, there is
no reason why you should not be present to comfort
your rat.

Under no circumstances allow anyone to administer an
intracardiac (in the heart) injection on a conscious
rat, even if the rat is sedated.   The injection is
painful, and it is difficult to find the heart,
sometimes resulting in a prolonged injection or the
solution being injected in the lungs instead.  This
method can be performed humanely only if the rat is
anesthetized.

When is the right time to end a rat’s suffering with
euthanasia?  This is always a difficult and very
personal matter.  In my opinion, the time to help your
rat die is when there is no hope of improvement
through the use of further medications or surgery, and
he is no longer enjoying life.  If his illness takes
all his energy and concentration; if he shows no
interest in food or physically can’t eat, even with
help; if he seems to be constantly in pain, distress,
or misery; this is the time to say goodbye and let
your rat go on to a better place.  It hurts, but you
know it’s the right thing to do, and it’s your last
gift to a friend who has given you so much.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/euth.html
This article is from the Rat Health Care booklet.
Order one today!

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 3:37:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ron 🙂
From what I have seen in this mailing list, and from the Ibonauts who “contribute” to the list. I believe that they are seeking to be abble to continue to use, but don’t want to get hook.They don’t give a shit of being sober :-).

Now, the Ibonauts clean and sober will not stay around long .That’s my humble opinion.
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices, but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at the hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 6, 2005 at 3:18:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick

I went to docs and told him what I wanted to do (ibogaine) he said my heart and liver are fine and im in good health, he did not see the need to carry out ECG and liver function as I have had no problem in the past and I am of good health.
Love Donnaxx

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 2:30:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

just wondering, do most ibonauts try for total sobriety or just release from opiates? no opinion, but
in my experience it has been one , at some point, leads to the other.  maybe i’m miswired. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices, but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at the hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 12:36:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Laura,

I have stayed at the hostel on Amsterdam a few times,
and it was OK.  One time, I shared a room with six
other girls in January, and the fucking heater didn’t
work.

But, it is pretty clean and affordable (shared room
around $25/night).  If I were you, I would consider
getting a private room($40-60).

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine NYC / COSM
Date: February 6, 2005 at 11:50:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Will there be a dress code? I got this slinky little……………………..never mind. hehehehe Seriously, if I show up in a Sears poncho will I be banished from the event? Actually my Mamma made it from a blanket made in Mexico I got in Kentucky. I was thinking of wearing it and nothing else. Maybe some cowboy boots with spurs. But, where would I hide my smoke…………. O yea, never mind.              Randy

From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn
Date: February 6, 2005 at 8:28:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for all the hotel help. I was in the city yesterday and walked right by the St. Marks Hotel and thought about going in and asking about prices, but instead I took the illogical option and judged the place by the people that were staying there, and the couple that was going inside had tons of shopping bags and were dressed pretty damn nice. I don’t usually make decisions based on such silliness, but I only had a couple hours before I had to go back upstate and I wanted to get a little alcohol buzz for the train ride back. But, I think I’ll check out priceline today and look at the hostel that Ekki posted about. Anyway, thanks again for the help. I can’t wait to see everyone at the conference. If anybody gets anymore info about lodging, let me know, por favor.
Laura

— On Sat 02/05, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:

From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small
room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly
cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term
here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be
coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment
with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual
short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because
I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i donīt know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” :

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming
down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap
hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=———————————————————————=[/

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: February 6, 2005 at 6:15:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie, I have been looking at E mails that I missed while working up a gig with a new drummer. The 3 D rule applied here. Drunk Drummers Drag. I mean, come on man, it’s the blues, it drags as it is, do a line or something. LOL  Anyway, your art work gave me a chill to my spine. I was there. It looks like they took you on a ride right after they took me. I never saw the faces, just space, so thanx for showing them to me. Did you feel like you were moving through space like I did? Man that was cool. Can you imagine doing Ibogaine floating weightless in space? Somebody has got to do that sometime. Volunteers anyone?       Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] UK ibogaine atticle BBC
Date: February 6, 2005 at 5:54:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 1/19/2005 9:15:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4182233.stm

1960s drug ‘alcoholism cure hope’
A hallucinogenic drug popular in the 1960s could help scientists find a
medical treatment for alcoholism, US researchers believe.

A University of California team said ibogaine blocked alcohol cravings in
rats by boosting a brain protein.

It was already thought it could combat addiction, but scientists have been
wary as the drug is also toxic.

It is hoped a treatment which works in the same way as ibogaine but without
the side effects could be developed.

Ibogaine
It causes hallucinations as well a feeling of lightness
Effects strongest after two hours
Users can experience a deep dreamy trance-like state for long periods
Used as a recreational drug
Also taken by heroin and cocaine addicts to beat cravings

In the UK, about 2.9 million adults – 7% of the population – are alcohol
dependent.

Alcohol misuse is linked to 22,000 deaths a year and costs the economy £20bn
a year in lost production and treatment.

People who misuse alcohol tend to be treated through counselling, although
there are a few drugs available which are sometimes used in conjunction with
rehabilitation programmes.

Reduced drinking

The research team believes the findings, published in the Journal of
Neuroscience, could lead to a change in approach to treating alcohol addiction.

Report co-author Patricia Janak said they found the drug worked by increasing
the level of the GDNF protein in the brain.

Previously, scientists were aware the drug may reduce dependency but did not
fully understand how it worked.

She said the team induced the rats to consume alcohol and found once they
were injected with ibogaine their GDNF levels increased and they reduced their
drinking.

There is a link to craving in the brain and if we can influence that it
is feasible to develop a drug treatment
Dr Bruce Ritson

She said the effect may stop people “falling off the wagon” as when rats were
denied alcohol for two weeks those given ibogaine had a much lower craving
when offered alcohol.

“The discovery that ibogaine reduced binge drinking after a period of
abstinence was an exiting finding for us because this is the type of behaviour in
alcoholics for which very few effective drugs exist.”

While the drug remains unlicensed in the UK and much of the rest of the
world, it is used to treat addiction in several private clinics in the Caribbean
and Mexico.

But Alcohol Concern said the findings should be treated with caution.

‘Shed light’

A spokeswoman said: “This type of study could prove useful in the long term
to shed light on the relationship between the brain and alcohol intake.

“However, very little can be drawn from a single animal-based study at this
stage.”

A further note of caution was added by Martin Plant, professor of addiction
studies at the University of the West of England, who said: “People become
addicted to alcohol for many different reason. The idea that taking tablets cures
the problem is naive.”

Dr Bruce Ritson, of the Medical Council on Alcohol, said: “Addiction is a
complex area and I would not believe it is the whole answer.”
When treating an alcoholic wouldn’t it be prudent to address the risk of seizure? Has anyone been treated for dual alcohol/opiate addictions? Anyone know of links to info on Ibogaine and alcohol? Does Ibogaine stop DT’s and the irrational fears that come with alcohol withdrawal? Just curious.     Randy

From: “Iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 6, 2005 at 12:23:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, does anyone know about voacanga?had an experience?
Thx everyone!

—–Message d’origine—–
De : ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Envoyé : 5 février 2005 15:27
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : [Ibogaine] voacanga africana

anyone ever tried this? it is said to contain ibogaine-like alkaloids,
is available as extract and legal everywhere, afaik

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 5, 2005 at 10:19:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/5/05 3:28:19 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:

anyone ever tried this? it is said to contain ibogaine-like alkaloids,
is available as extract and legal everywhere, afaik

All reliable reports I have seen describe it (my words) as useless to treat
chemical dependence or for any significant exotic effects.

Howard

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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine NYC / COSM
Date: February 5, 2005 at 8:44:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Since this will be an offIci4l Cures not Wars event … there is no exact schedule … yet.

THIS is as good as it gets … for right now:

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/News/2005COSM.html

An updated, exact schedule of events will be posted no later than 4 weeks after the conference has ended.

Basically, the list of people named under “Speakers” will be around, more or less, for at least a little while, on both conference days.

Patrick

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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Alex Grey
Date: February 5, 2005 at 8:36:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Feb 5, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Preston Peet wrote:

Anyone know if Alex Grey will be present during the conference?<

I spoke to Alex last week, and he sounded pretty enthusiastic about the conference actually, and was thrilled to hear I’d done it a couple of times, ibogaine I mean.
He’s awesome. His Chapel is one of the very coolest spaces I’ve ever had the chance to hang out and even party in- speaking of shrooms, it’s a great place for them. Eat then sit and space out into some painting of the most incredibly beautiful kind, the kind that I find myself looking at and so very often saying, “hey, I’VE been there! I’ve SEEN that! I know those people/things/spaces/places!”

Yeah, Alex will be present both days, and speaking on the Lost Sacraments panel on the first day (Sunday).

Patrick

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From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 5, 2005 at 3:57:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Original Message —
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:05:26 -0800 (PST)
From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Question!!!

Hi Nick.Thanks for answering my question.Yes this prior provider is aware
that I have used iboga 3 times,twice was with his clinic,& once in home
setting.But
you have to understand that this fella did not have a spiritual experience
with his one time use of ibogaine,he started using SMART recovery tools
&
has never used opiates or coke since. Guess he was alluding that ibogaine
is pretty intense .About the part where “i’ve probably got all I could from
the visions,hmm,well if a person didnt get much from it ,that might make
sense.I think what im wanting is a fresh start point,like the reset deal
from ibogaine.I have tried every modality except methadone or UROD ,which
is not what i want.I just finished bup ,but the withdrawals were more intense
than I had planned for & to be working at my high stress job-no way.So Ive
scheduled 2 weeks off & am thinking saras house.I dont want a clinical setting,I
want a spiritual/ritual setting.Curious that this fella that said all that
is not
treating people right now. I dont know .maybe they think it looks bad for
4 time repeaters for the other clientele.I’m working real hard on not beating
myself up & do the next “right” thing for my recovery.I got back on short
acting til I can get off work,less than 2 weeks away!,the 19th!!I’m just
afraid that if i did some home detox I’d buckle & relapse,or that if I did
sub that the prolonged 1/2 life would be difficult to predict when I would
need the time off the most.Fortunately,sara is available & willing,I borrowed
the $ easily ,I can schedule (& have)the time off work ,so I have 2 weeks,starting
the 18th.Lots of folks ask,what will be different this time? Good question.I
feel alot ,I mean alot of resistance about AA again,its really christian
based here ,& Im not. I like SMART but there is only online here in the
bible
belt. Eric had a good idea about using a lady that works alot with post
ibonauts,would
need to be by phone at least for a while.Im doing a taper with the short
acting so they’ll last til I fly out to saras.Probably more info than you
needed for your question ,but hey,list ,guess its my turn ,& I thank the
creator that there is a list like this that is open to any options,especially
ibogaine!I’ll write more soon-shell

Hi Shelley,

Many thanks for such a comprehensive reply. Yes, if you feel it’s right to
do more then I’d say go for it. And, if you feel you want or need a spiritual
experience then yeah go for that too. Did you write before about how it was
the previous times – what you experienced? I’d be interested to hear.

love

Nick

___________________________________________________________

Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo on the radio
Date: February 5, 2005 at 3:28:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi All,

This reminded me very much of a Hcl Vision I had.  I
did it after detoxing w/ “Indra” so I already had that
used car salesman Glow going….

The Vision had too many things to go into here (write
me off list if you care), part of it was I, (in the
Vision), dove headfirst into Glowy, and

—>Even though I was 110% Sure that what I was doing
was Helping, it turns out it made things worse and
things went So very Crazy…

“Underground” treatment is great Advertising in the
Short Term, it’s obviouslly working, Especially if
Jail isn’t a problem (and I appload the Courage for
sure).

(Here’s a Shout Out to all the dot Gov’s in the
audience)

But in the Long Term…well, we’ll see.  I really Hope
it make things Better.

*I just Hope it doesn’t trigger Reaction that would
aim to make Iboga/Ibogaine Illegal in MORE
Countries.

I can see Both Sides of this, for Sure.

I handed out lots and lots of flyers at Methadone
Clinics in Dallas/Ft.Worth, of course everyone was
interested, who wouldn’t be (by the way, for me, it
wasn’t a Cure, it didn’t Eliminate withdrawls (it
Reduced them, but know where close to the word
Eliminate), and let’s see, “It makes music better”
At the time, I just read some of the Reports, it reads
like an adventure story.

You, dear Reader, are worth something, even without
Ibogaine, you are worth something.

I am not a Mash fan by any means (that was the first
place I contacted, the disregard and unflexibility for
Set and Setting, not to mention Non-Sliding Scale
Cost)
But I agree that if the objective is to make it Legal,
then convincing Non-Ibogaine Salesman is Vital.
Getting the Peeps in Health Depo. to know us by our
First Name would do much more for the objective of
making it Legal.

But if the objective is to make treatment available to
those who otherwise couldn’t afford it, then Rock the
fuck Out, it is working.  Just make sure you are aware
their WILL be a reaction from Them.

Follow Your Heart.

If anyone dosing Ibo in Dallas alone and wants someone
with them but can’t afford it, I’m here for that, no
Charge, I’m there for that.

Also, how long was LSD-25 on the “street” before it
started getting Cut w/ things?
It would be a shame to see the same thing happen with
Ibogaine in 5-10 years.

Howard, thank you for posting that Link…always
looking for interesting Audio.

Cheers,
Jason

— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get
the word out and make
public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied
access to. It just seems so
ludicrous that the government will subsidize
Methadone,

and then deny the only
thing that helps you beat the addiction.

Not to
mention the easiest way for all
prescription opiate addictions. That’s just the
legal drugs I’m talking
about. What about Heroin? I’m not talking about
fixing every addict, I’m talking
about the ones who wanted out, like me. I often
wonder how many people are
sitting around thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing
this shit to myself,” and
don’t know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know
that they have a choice. A
good choice, the best choice I could find anyway,
and I looked hard, very hard.
If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine then
it just can’t be ignored
anymore. For addicts that want to interrupt their
addiction, the longer they
have to wait, the longer they have to suffer
needlessly. That just sucks.
Looking back at my treatment I would have done it
just for the addiction
interruption aspects of Ibogaine, but man those
trails were cool and the Holideck was
incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of
Ibogaine. I’m afraid that
Steve is right.      Randy

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] voacanga africana
Date: February 5, 2005 at 3:27:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

anyone ever tried this? it is said to contain ibogaine-like alkaloids, is available as extract and legal everywhere, afaik

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] lodging in the Apple
Date: February 5, 2005 at 2:40:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Anyone know if Alex Grey will be present during the conference?<

I spoke to Alex last week, and he sounded pretty enthusiastic about the conference actually, and was thrilled to hear I’d done it a couple of times, ibogaine I mean.
He’s awesome. His Chapel is one of the very coolest spaces I’ve ever had the chance to hang out and even party in- speaking of shrooms, it’s a great place for them. Eat then sit and space out into some painting of the most incredibly beautiful kind, the kind that I find myself looking at and so very often saying, “hey, I’VE been there! I’ve SEEN that! I know those people/things/spaces/places!”

;-))

But to answer your question, I’m not sure if Alex will  be there, but he sounded like he was planning on at least making it for part of the shindig.
Symptom of the Universe is such an awesome song too btw, blasting on a gorgeous Saturday afternoon while I sit typing away inside and not out in the day.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <Jeffgd1@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] lodging in the Apple

Hey there
Try priceline on a Sunday you can usually find a 3 or even 4 star hotel in what ever part of the city you choose (mid-town South would be the closest i believe)for 50-60 bux that has been my experience.
Anyone know if Alex Grey will be present during the conference?
Freak Free
Jeff

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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: ‘Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…’
Date: February 5, 2005 at 2:36:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ma be staying at the Hotel 31… a double bed with a shared bath is only
$69, and it’s a decent place… small of course, but reasonably nice.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”
Date: February 5, 2005 at 2:24:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You could try Hotel 17, on 17th St. It used to be fairly cheap for a small room, for Manhattan anyway.
You could also try the St. Marks Hotel, another that used to be fairly cheap, but remember, this is Manhattan, so “cheap” is a very relative term here.

I apologize for not offering floor space here to anyone who may be coming to the conference, but I live in Manhattan too, in a teeny apartment with a girlfriend and 9 cats- there’s barely enough room for casual short-term visitors, much less sleep-over guests. Which is a shame because I’ve always loved having people over too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool: http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” <thethird@myway.com>:

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 5, 2005 at 2:20:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Reading DrugWar, every message that mentions Peter Cohen is hysterical
and angry (if I missed a positive one, clue me in Preston 🙂

That leaves the question of who exactly does Peter Cohen represent, or
is his whole career being the PHD who makes everyone angry and that’s
his schtick. Because he looks to do that bit very well 😉 <

Can’t do that, ’cause, while I hate to admit it, I can’t recall off the top of my head seeing a Peter Cohen thread on DrugWar. But I may have missed it, because, again while I hate to admit it, I’ve been doing a fair amount of skimming lately due to other project drawing more and more of my immediate attention.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

If it wasn’t obvious I was not bashing anyone, I was asking why Peter
Cohen is pulled into ibogaine from all these sides. My question was
asked because all parties directly spoke for themselves.

Howard wrote the summary of the entire event and said Patrick invited
Peter Cohen to the ibogaine roundtable because of his (Howard’s)
advice.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

Patrick hasn’t said anything at all, but he’s reprinted and linked a
addiction article by Peter Cohen, since before the Ibogaine Roundtable.

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/KeepingClean/

My impression of the Keeping Clean section is that it has materials
Patrick  and the main editors and contributors to MindVox agree with
(you are the one listed as being the editor for the Keeping Clean
section (Steven Anker)).

All of which implies endorsement of Peter Cohen’s views by both Howard
and Patrick and by extension the largest ibogaine web sites on the
whole internet.

This is my attempt to be articulate and express what went through my
mind. That’s a lot of endorsement for a person who writes the rants
that Randy reprinted, it’s also a lot of endorsement for a person who
is supposed to have respect and represent active drug users who make
choices, when reading DrugWar (Preston Peet’s forum), it almost looks
like the active drug users Peter Cohen represents, have the same
violent and angry reaction to him as ibogaine proponents.

Reading DrugWar, every message that mentions Peter Cohen is hysterical
and angry (if I missed a positive one, clue me in Preston 🙂

That leaves the question of who exactly does Peter Cohen represent, or
is his whole career being the PHD who makes everyone angry and that’s
his schtick. Because he looks to do that bit very well 😉

It isn’t pro-ibogaine people he angers, it isn’t pro-ibogaine and then
make chocies instead of being ‘sober’ it isn’t active drug users, it
looks to be nearly everyone Peter Cohen has ever talked with, who’s
angry at him. He should join this list 🙂

Peace

.:vector:.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 5, 2005 at 2:03:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Don’t want to go on like a schoooolteacher but at some point you can see
that all the so-called suffering in life is just the way the universe
expands us, the way it grows us. When you put it out physically, when you
express it totally, when you accept what you are confronted with in life and
just go totally for it, then you get the expansion and the demons are now
your friends.<

All my friends are demons Nick.
;-))
Seriously though, I’m of the opinion that the so-called suffering in life can be medicated quite often and this is why the substances that do medicate my own pains and sufferings do grow upon this planet too.
Call it intelligent design, or simply coincidence, I don’t mind either way- but they are here. We people have figured out ways to make some of these natural substances even more effective- but it’s not unnatural to use these enhanced substances as there’s nothing we can do, I believe, that’s unnatural.
Sorry, I’m risking repeating myself here.
And I’m not saying I feel differently and in some ways better when not on quite so many opiates- but there’s a trade off, in that I feel much worse in so many other ways when not taking quite so many opiates Nick.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “Peter Cohen” <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 03 February 2005 23:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

>These are drugs of repression and the upside is….you don’t
have to feel
>things you might otherwise have to…the downside is…by
cutting yourself
>from your feelings in this way you simultaneously cut yourself off from
>your POWER.<

So, I should suffer in pain for the rest of my life, because I’m cutting
myself off from my power with my opiate use otherwise?
I tend to find that when I use opiates to one degree or other (and it
varies) I am feeling more powerful and more able to accomplish
things in my
day and to actually get through my day without repeatedly telling
my V how I
want to “jump out the window” because I’m hurting or some other
depressing
thing. And this is after using ibogaine twice now Nick.
So while I do see a need for ibogaine in this day and age of
prohibition
and even in days of no prohibition, I don’t personally think we should be
telling people that using opiates is always bad and that they must submit
and succumb to treatment or else.

Hi Preston,

I agree, I have nothing against using opiates for pain control. As i see it,
it’s what they’re made for.

>So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the >mind.<

What does this mean Nick?

It means that the only arena in which opiate users can realistically fight
for their right to use is in the rational, the higher brain. I think they
call it the neo-cortex in science. To fight in the domain of the lower or
middle brain – the animal and reptilian sides of ourselves – you need a
decent connection to those areas and drugs like heroin do not totally shut
you off but they do create such a disfunction here that it’s hard to go into
anything with your total energy.

When you look at how current public opinion is moved and swayed around by
the media or whatever, it’s not really so much the higher brain, mostly
reptillian, maybe some mid. In this arena it’s very hard for junkies to
fight. They’re too cut off.

Don’t want to go on like a schoooolteacher but at some point you can see
that all the so-called suffering in life is just the way the universe
expands us, the way it grows us. When you put it out physically, when you
express it totally, when you accept what you are confronted with in life and
just go totally for it, then you get the expansion and the demons are now
your friends.

Drugs like heroin back up your body’s capacity to repress the experience of
FEELINGS, and these feelings are primarily the manifestation of the lower
and mid brain in physical form – anger, jealousy, love, pride, grief, many
more. I’m not saying at all that junkies don’t get them. Often they probably
get them so strong they can’t deal with them and use opiates to keep them
down and feel sane. BUT, there is a price for this – you cannot harness
these energies and make them compliant to your higher ideals.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Look, Peter, talking about heroin and methadone, yes, you need to
push the
idealogical arguments as hard as you can, for one simple reason.
These are
drugs of repression and the upside is….you don’t have to feel
things you
might otherwise have to…the downside is…by cutting yourself from your
feelings in this way you simultaneously cut yourself off from your POWER.

So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Good luck!

Nick   www.ibogaine.co.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 20:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Sure , he makes a point here and there, but he doesn’t show understanding
for those who like to change to a non drug user,without
withdrawals please.

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 21:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Peter writes:
I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had
nothing to
do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using
ibo is not
much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to excorcise
these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self
determination in the
choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not
harm others
more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the
Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in
the times of
Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and
now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction
doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book
about the cure
of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE
TO GET RID
OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to
inhale a mixture
of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi
primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in
any way we
like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a
cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for
some reason I
do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers,
nuking their
pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we
want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains
intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for
which the ibo
clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek any
kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek
assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
or wife we
hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not
prohibited, as it was
in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most
(the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they
say lets not
burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay
oven. I also
said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of
prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’
drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot
for getting
back to me. I’m very interested in your views.           Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 5, 2005 at 12:05:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Shell, I think Sara’s help is just what you need. I have real good feelings about you going there. I’ll be thinking of you and I’ll make sure everyone I come in contact with at the conference knows what you are doing that weekend. Positive vibes your way.     Randy

From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] lodging in the Apple
Date: February 5, 2005 at 11:24:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey there
Try priceline on a Sunday you can usually find a 3 or even 4 star hotel in what ever part of the city you choose (mid-town South would be the closest i believe)for 50-60 bux that has been my experience.
Anyone know if Alex Grey will be present during the conference?
Freak Free
Jeff

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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 5, 2005 at 11:05:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick.Thanks for answering my question.Yes this prior provider is aware that I have used iboga 3 times,twice was with his clinic,& once in home setting.But you have to understand that this fella did not have a spiritual experience with his one time use of ibogaine,he started using SMART recovery tools & has never used opiates or coke since. Guess he was alluding that ibogaine is pretty intense .About the part where “i’ve probably got all I could from the visions,hmm,well if a person didnt get much from it ,that might make sense.I think what im wanting is a fresh start point,like the reset deal from ibogaine.I have tried every modality except methadone or UROD ,which is not what i want.I just finished bup ,but the withdrawals were more intense than I had planned for & to be working at my high stress job-no way.So Ive scheduled 2 weeks off & am thinking saras house.I dont want a clinical setting,I want a spiritual/ritual setting.Curious that this fella that said all that is not treating people right now. I dont know .maybe they think it looks bad for 4 time repeaters for the other clientele.I’m working real hard on not beating myself up & do the next “right” thing for my recovery.I got back on short acting til I can get off work,less than 2 weeks away!,the 19th!!I’m just afraid that if i did some home detox I’d buckle & relapse,or that if I did sub that the prolonged 1/2 life would be difficult to predict when I would need the time off the most.Fortunately,sara is available & willing,I borrowed the $ easily ,I can schedule (& have)the time off work ,so I have 2 weeks,starting the 18th.Lots of folks ask,what will be different this time? Good question.I feel alot ,I mean alot of resistance about AA again,its really christian based here ,& Im not. I like SMART but there is only online here in the bible belt. Eric had a good idea about using a lady that works alot with post ibonauts,would need to be by phone at least for a while.Im doing a taper with the short acting so they’ll last til I fly out to saras.Probably more info than you needed for your question ,but hey,list ,guess its my turn ,& I thank the creator that there is a list like this that is open to any options,especially ibogaine!I’ll write more soon-shell

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Shelley,

Did you tell the provider all the other stuff you’d tried and what happened? I ask because it is a model in therapy to try other approaches if you don’t get anywhere with what you’re doing after a decent go at it. Maybe this is what they were putting out. Also, what did they mean by “beating myself up with it.” Were they very tough the sessions? Be good to hear more.

Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: shelley krupa [mailto:skrupa20022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 03 February 2005 19:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Question!!!

Hi List,hey I’ve got a question burning me up , when I recently went provider shopping ,a prior provider said that since i’ve used ibogaine 3 times ,i’ve probably learned all I can from it,why keep beating myself up with it & try something different, this is undoubtedly a refreshing idea. However, I’m feeling more confused than ever. I just did the buprenex detox ,& I did it right too(!) But I am back on short acting for now .It was too hard trying to work thru the bup withdrawal, had a 100 degree fever, diarrhea on the 2nd day ,( not supposed to go into w/d for at least a coupla days) (guess I’m a fast metabolizer), muscle cramps ,etc. Not to mention a real labile mood that doesnt work well on a psych units I work on. So I started investigating ibogaine again,seems logical,no? I have read that most folks are more successful with repeated sessions, but was never informed this origonally,actually found that info here or maybe erwoid.Guess this is the ? I’,m wondering about ,repeated doses & successWha is gonna work for me. A part of me triesto get away with as much as possible ,like a perverse risk taking deal, kinda hoping thats not unusual for an addict.Me,me ,me,yuck .I’m so confused right now. You know ,i had 10 years sobriety at one point & loved it.Well ,thanks for letting me go on -your confused fellow ibonaut-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Preston, I’d like to make a memorial to all the rockers who have gone down like that. I think about how Ibogaine might have saved us a great player like Sid, or Janis, or Brian Jones …………… the list would be awfully long.      Randy

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”
Date: February 5, 2005 at 7:58:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hello laura i don´t know if this is cool:    http://www.hinewyork.org/

Am 05.02.2005 um 12:22 schrieb “” <thethird@myway.com>:

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.

Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 5, 2005 at 6:28:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 04 February 2005 16:33
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Dear Vector,

I invited Peter to the Ibogaine Roundtable for a number of
reasons.  1) Peter
is very well liked/loved/respected by many active European drug
users because
he defends their dignity and humanity as drug users.  2) Peter is
well known
in the harm reduction movement and I felt his presence at the Ibogaine
Roundtable would increase attendance at the meeting. 3) It
appeared to me that the
session would be more interesting with someone providing
counterpoint to the
“usual suspects” who are all very pro ibogaine, myself included,
and 4) were we
able to hold the discussion part of the session I think Peter would have
provided valuable discussion points that could be responded to,
demonstrating
ibogaine’s value.

I don’t think Peter is bashing ibogaine or people who are trying to stay
clean.  Peter is bashing a system that targets drug users to be
victimized and I
am also opposed to that system.

I think ibogaine and its benefits can be well defended and its
proponents can
respond adequately to Peter Cohen and I do believe that his
presence and the
possibility of confrontation at the Ibogaine Roundtable increased
conference
participation during the session allowing the greater message of ibogaine
benefits to reach a larger audience.

Peter is not bashing people who chose not to use drugs but, he might take
difference with your term, “staying clean” as it provides the inherent
stereotyping of a prohibitionist order that must demean drug
users, a system to which
many of us fall victim.

I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is
reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except
to speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s
method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all
process and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

Howard
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

Hi Howard,

Well, it’s obvious that Peter is orientated towards confrontation and that
this how he gains awareness. Like Vector or someone said, it would great if
he would join the ibogaine list for a while so he can take in more feedback
and perhaps develop his ideas more fully. I will send him an email asking
him if he wishes to do so.

Nick

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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: “Hotel, Motel, Holiday Inn…”
Date: February 5, 2005 at 6:22:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey everyone going to the conference, any ideas on cheap hotels? I’m coming down from the catskills with not much money and will have to find a cheap hotel. Also if anyone wants to share a room, send me an email off the list.
Laura

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 5, 2005 at 6:20:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Shelley,

Did you tell the provider all the other stuff you’d tried and what happened? I ask because it is a model in therapy to try other approaches if you don’t get anywhere with what you’re doing after a decent go at it. Maybe this is what they were putting out. Also, what did they mean by “beating myself up with it.” Were they very tough the sessions? Be good to hear more.

Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: shelley krupa [mailto:skrupa20022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 03 February 2005 19:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Question!!!

Hi List,hey I’ve got a question burning me up , when I recently went provider shopping ,a prior provider said that since i’ve used ibogaine 3 times ,i’ve probably learned all I can from it,why keep beating myself up with it & try something different, this is undoubtedly a refreshing idea. However, I’m feeling more confused than ever. I just did the buprenex detox ,& I did it right too(!) But I am back on short acting for now .It was too hard trying to work thru the bup withdrawal, had a 100 degree fever, diarrhea on the 2nd day ,( not supposed to go into w/d for at least a coupla days) (guess I’m a fast metabolizer), muscle cramps ,etc. Not to mention a real labile mood that doesnt work well on a psych units I work on. So I started investigating ibogaine again,seems logical,no? I have read that most folks are more successful with repeated sessions, but was never informed this origonally,actually found that info here or maybe erwoid.Guess this is the ? I’,m wondering about ,repeated doses & successWha is gonna work for me. A part of me triesto get away with as much as possible ,like a perverse risk taking deal, kinda hoping thats not unusual for an addict.Me,me ,me,yuck .I’m so confused right now. You know ,i had 10 years sobriety at one point & loved it.Well ,thanks for letting me go on -your confused fellow ibonaut-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Preston, I’d like to make a memorial to all the rockers who have gone down like that. I think about how Ibogaine might have saved us a great player like Sid, or Janis, or Brian Jones …………… the list would be awfully long.      Randy

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 5, 2005 at 6:10:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Donna,

Thanks for the update. Can I ask, did you get the medical checks done yet?

love

Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com]
Sent: 05 February 2005 00:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Hi Steve, Preston, Randy, Howard, Nick, Hannah, Julie, Jeff, Ekki and everyone on the list,

A plea I have enough cash to buy my ibo for treatment but can not afford to pay for an experienced provider to treat me, so Jasen said to ask if any one on the list could help me out.  I have back up plan as I am desperate to get clean next week I am going to a mates to start taking subutex, my husband is looking after my son for 3 days and then the week after I am going on holiday so if I do not feel 100% I will have my sister to look after my boy. Oh by the way I live in the UK and I know its a long shot and short notice but I would really like to thank all of you on the list for all your advice it has been priceless, and also a provider said it may be best to try coming off using subutex and then have the ibo, she said I would get so much more out of it, also she said that it takes alot out of you physically (especially women) and my job is looking  after children.  However one thing is certain I will get off heroin and i will keep you posted.

With love Donnax

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo on the radio
Date: February 5, 2005 at 5:11:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m with you Sara. I figure the only way is to get the word out and make public demand so loud that Ibogaine can’t be denied access to. It just seems so ludicrous that the government will subsidize Methadone, and then deny the only thing that helps you beat the addiction. Not to mention the easiest way for all prescription opiate addictions. That’s just the legal drugs I’m talking about. What about Heroin? I’m not talking about fixing every addict, I’m talking about the ones who wanted out, like me. I often wonder how many people are sitting around thinking, ” I wish I could quit doing this shit to myself,” and don’t know a thing about Ibogaine? They need to know that they have a choice. A good choice, the best choice I could find anyway, and I looked hard, very hard. If enough people are successful doing Ibogaine then it just can’t be ignored anymore. For addicts that want to interrupt their addiction, the longer they have to wait, the longer they have to suffer needlessly. That just sucks. Looking back at my treatment I would have done it just for the addiction interruption aspects of Ibogaine, but man those trails were cool and the Holideck was incredible. I hope they never take the trip out of Ibogaine. I’m afraid that Steve is right.      Randy

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 5, 2005 at 4:45:00 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Hannah
Are you still around I plan to start my detox friday, and I was wondering (I know you are really busy) but it would really help if I could talk to you because you have been there, I dont have any support here really.  I think i will email you off list…………

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibo on the radio
Date: February 5, 2005 at 4:31:14 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If people want to avoid “BACK ROOMS” THEN THE ONLY WAY IS TO MAKE IT LEGAL.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: zaterdag 5 februari 2005 5:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo on the radio

This doesn’t say anything new at all, except Dmitri is full of passion
for what he’s doing and Mash (sorry Patrick) is full of shit and
selling the same used car, 10 years later. Nothing new from her side.

Best line in the whole interview, Mash’s ‘back room abortionists’ and
Dmitri’s answer ‘thank you, I’m very proud to be one’

.:vector:.

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

After receiving some calls concerning an ibogaine radio program I
then
received the following url for the program.

http://www.here-now.org/shows/2005/02/20050204_2.asp

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] conference visit
Date: February 5, 2005 at 3:49:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki, send me an Email off list and I may be able to help. I’m from Kentucky and I’m going there too, I’m just not sure of the time table. I live in the Catskill Mountains about 2 hours away from NYC.              PS I know a guy in Kentucky who has a working Meletron.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] conference visit
Date: February 5, 2005 at 3:45:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

 

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] conference visit
Date: February 5, 2005 at 3:40:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i´m looking for a place to sleep in nyc 18-22th feb.
i just need a blanket, can maintain myself and will vanish to kentucky afterwards.
any offer will be appreciated, please contact me offlist.
-ekki

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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibo on the radio
Date: February 4, 2005 at 11:24:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This doesn’t say anything new at all, except Dmitri is full of passion
for what he’s doing and Mash (sorry Patrick) is full of shit and
selling the same used car, 10 years later. Nothing new from her side.

Best line in the whole interview, Mash’s ‘back room abortionists’ and
Dmitri’s answer ‘thank you, I’m very proud to be one’

.:vector:.

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

After receiving some calls concerning an ibogaine radio program I
then
received the following url for the program.

http://www.here-now.org/shows/2005/02/20050204_2.asp

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 4, 2005 at 11:20:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If it wasn’t obvious I was not bashing anyone, I was asking why Peter
Cohen is pulled into ibogaine from all these sides. My question was
asked because all parties directly spoke for themselves.

Howard wrote the summary of the entire event and said Patrick invited
Peter Cohen to the ibogaine roundtable because of his (Howard’s)
advice.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

Patrick hasn’t said anything at all, but he’s reprinted and linked a
addiction article by Peter Cohen, since before the Ibogaine Roundtable.

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/KeepingClean/

My impression of the Keeping Clean section is that it has materials
Patrick  and the main editors and contributors to MindVox agree with
(you are the one listed as being the editor for the Keeping Clean
section (Steven Anker)).

All of which implies endorsement of Peter Cohen’s views by both Howard
and Patrick and by extension the largest ibogaine web sites on the
whole internet.

This is my attempt to be articulate and express what went through my
mind. That’s a lot of endorsement for a person who writes the rants
that Randy reprinted, it’s also a lot of endorsement for a person who
is supposed to have respect and represent active drug users who make
choices, when reading DrugWar (Preston Peet’s forum), it almost looks
like the active drug users Peter Cohen represents, have the same
violent and angry reaction to him as ibogaine proponents.

Reading DrugWar, every message that mentions Peter Cohen is hysterical
and angry (if I missed a positive one, clue me in Preston 🙂

That leaves the question of who exactly does Peter Cohen represent, or
is his whole career being the PHD who makes everyone angry and that’s
his schtick. Because he looks to do that bit very well 😉

It isn’t pro-ibogaine people he angers, it isn’t pro-ibogaine and then
make chocies instead of being ‘sober’ it isn’t active drug users, it
looks to be nearly everyone Peter Cohen has ever talked with, who’s
angry at him. He should join this list 🙂

Peace

.:vector:.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibo on the radio
Date: February 4, 2005 at 9:35:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

After receiving some calls concerning an ibogaine radio program I then
received the following url for the program.

http://www.here-now.org/shows/2005/02/20050204_2.asp

Howard

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 4, 2005 at 7:55:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “Peter Cohen” <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 03 February 2005 23:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

These are drugs of repression and the upside is….you don’t
have to feel
things you might otherwise have to…the downside is…by
cutting yourself
from your feelings in this way you simultaneously cut yourself off from
your POWER.<

So, I should suffer in pain for the rest of my life, because I’m cutting
myself off from my power with my opiate use otherwise?
I tend to find that when I use opiates to one degree or other (and it
varies) I am feeling more powerful and more able to accomplish
things in my
day and to actually get through my day without repeatedly telling
my V how I
want to “jump out the window” because I’m hurting or some other
depressing
thing. And this is after using ibogaine twice now Nick.
So while I do see a need for ibogaine in this day and age of
prohibition
and even in days of no prohibition, I don’t personally think we should be
telling people that using opiates is always bad and that they must submit
and succumb to treatment or else.

Hi Preston,

I agree, I have nothing against using opiates for pain control. As i see it,
it’s what they’re made for.

So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.<

What does this mean Nick?

It means that the only arena in which opiate users can realistically fight
for their right to use is in the rational, the higher brain. I think they
call it the neo-cortex in science. To fight in the domain of the lower or
middle brain – the animal and reptilian sides of ourselves – you need a
decent connection to those areas and drugs like heroin do not totally shut
you off but they do create such a disfunction here that it’s hard to go into
anything with your total energy.

When you look at how current public opinion is moved and swayed around by
the media or whatever, it’s not really so much the higher brain, mostly
reptillian, maybe some mid. In this arena it’s very hard for junkies to
fight. They’re too cut off.

Don’t want to go on like a schoooolteacher but at some point you can see
that all the so-called suffering in life is just the way the universe
expands us, the way it grows us. When you put it out physically, when you
express it totally, when you accept what you are confronted with in life and
just go totally for it, then you get the expansion and the demons are now
your friends.

Drugs like heroin back up your body’s capacity to repress the experience of
FEELINGS, and these feelings are primarily the manifestation of the lower
and mid brain in physical form – anger, jealousy, love, pride, grief, many
more. I’m not saying at all that junkies don’t get them. Often they probably
get them so strong they can’t deal with them and use opiates to keep them
down and feel sane. BUT, there is a price for this – you cannot harness
these energies and make them compliant to your higher ideals.

Nick

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Look, Peter, talking about heroin and methadone, yes, you need to
push the
idealogical arguments as hard as you can, for one simple reason.
These are
drugs of repression and the upside is….you don’t have to feel
things you
might otherwise have to…the downside is…by cutting yourself from your
feelings in this way you simultaneously cut yourself off from your POWER.

So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Good luck!

Nick   www.ibogaine.co.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 20:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Sure , he makes a point here and there, but he doesn’t show understanding
for those who like to change to a non drug user,without
withdrawals please.

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 21:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Peter writes:
I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had
nothing to
do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using
ibo is not
much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to excorcise
these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self
determination in the
choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not
harm others
more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the
Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in
the times of
Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and
now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction
doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book
about the cure
of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE
TO GET RID
OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to
inhale a mixture
of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi
primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in
any way we
like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a
cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for
some reason I
do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers,
nuking their
pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we
want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains
intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for
which the ibo
clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek any
kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek
assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
or wife we
hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not
prohibited, as it was
in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most
(the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they
say lets not
burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay
oven. I also
said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of
prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’
drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot
for getting
back to me. I’m very interested in your views.           Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate
Date: February 4, 2005 at 7:53:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Julie

Im definately going to try that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! glad it helped you.
love Donnaxxxxx

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 4, 2005 at 7:45:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick

Glad you are well, its horrible being skint your girlfriend might be worrying about it and we always take things out on people that are close to us dont we.  I am still into doing the ibo but have decided on yours and everyone on the list not to self administer, Im scared of under estimating the power of ibo or not having enough respect for it if you know what I mean! I have back up plan to do the subutex next Friday I starti am goin to my mates and my husband will look after my son for a few days till I get  the dose stable. I will let you know how I get on there is no computer there but I could text you or you can wait till i get home and I will up date you.  Have a great party!!!!!
love Donnax

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 4, 2005 at 7:35:28 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Donna,

Thanks for asking. I live in a community in Dorset called Osho Leela, or sometimes the Leela Centre when we want to sound less religious (Osho being a notorious Indian mystic who died 15 odd years ago). I’m pretty good though my girlfriend is having a big drama about being skint, and being a bitch to me half the time, pushing me away which pisses me off. Otherwise stuff is good. We’re having a big party weekend at the moment which is cool. How are you? Are you getting stuff together to do ibogaine still, or having second thoughts?

love

Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com]
Sent: 05 February 2005 00:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]

Hi Nick

Hope you are well I was wondering where you live???
love donnax

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 4, 2005 at 7:33:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Steve, Preston, Randy, Howard, Nick, Hannah, Julie, Jeff, Ekki and everyone on the list,

A plea I have enough cash to buy my ibo for treatment but can not afford to pay for an experienced provider to treat me, so Jasen said to ask if any one on the list could help me out.  I have back up plan as I am desperate to get clean next week I am going to a mates to start taking subutex, my husband is looking after my son for 3 days and then the week after I am going on holiday so if I do not feel 100% I will have my sister to look after my boy. Oh by the way I live in the UK and I know its a long shot and short notice but I would really like to thank all of you on the list for all your advice it has been priceless, and also a provider said it may be best to try coming off using subutex and then have the ibo, she said I would get so much more out of it, also she said that it takes alot out of you physically (especially women) and my job is looking  after children.  However one thing is certain I will get off heroin and i will keep you posted.

With love Donnax

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 4, 2005 at 7:26:28 PM EST
To: “Peter Cohen” <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 21:52
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Nick, I am not sure I understand you.
You say

” So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Please explain.
Then, you are right that cutting off your feelings diminishes power people can have, but some feelings do so much more! Sometimes cutting the feelings may be a very healthy act, like cutting the physical pain people have when for instance, they have serious cancers.
I would agree that doing it longer than really needed may be counterproductive, and most people ense this and quit. Some way!
ciao
pc

Hi Peter,

I guess I wanted to point out, firstly, that it is hard to fight particularly for the right to use opiates unless one is not under the influence of the same. Apologies for not stating this more clearly. Secondly, and more generally, that, as I see it, you are promoting the rights of the individual to use any drug of choice but without much apparent concern for the addictive nature of some of these drugs.

For me, it’s one thing to say people should have the right to access to psychedelics, for example tryptamines, drugs having a relatively low level of physically addictive characteristics. But another to say that people should just have constant access to analgesics, such as opiates, whenever they want without regard for the highly physically addictive nature of these drugs.

Basically, underneath this, I do not understand your stance on ibogaine, a substance that can reverse unwanted drug usage. Can you make your position more clear? You have something against this substance?

About pain control, for sure opiates or any other medication are great for as long as needed.

Regards

Nick

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 4, 2005 at 6:59:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I thought it was excellent that Howard had Peter at the round table. I’ve read the stuff but wasn’t there and think Howard did a wonderful job putting it all together. Peter did raise interesting ideas and counter-points. It was also great that there were lots of people with interests other than ibogaine. Discusion and debate are crucial elements of a healthy society. It never hurts to look at any topic with skepticism. Dogma is rarely such a great thing. Arguments can solidify a position and thinking. I read somewhere that a bright mind can hold two contradicing arguments at the same time.

Preaching to the choir can make you feel better, but does it help create change? Methadone, AA, weed, 5-htp, yoga, puppies, this, that and the other all have a hand in helping some keep clean, we need more tools not less and nothing should be singled out as ‘the way.’ Ibogaine or any other treatment modality isn’t for everyone. AA doesn’t help me because it’s a wee churchie and more important it’s harmful for me to be around a bunch of people telling war stories about drugs… it really gets my appetite going. For others it’s a godsend. Your way isn’t my way. Iboga is the same way, helps some, others perhaps not as much. I guess this list is my version of AA meetings.

In America at least I think the only hope is for 18-mc and nor-ibogaine for addiction treatment. Ibogaine will only be legal after the rapture and then it’ll be tough to get so it won’t matter.

My 2 cents about some other discusions: If people need to self medicate with opiates, fine by me. No one knows why some people take heroin and feel fine for the first ever and lucky others vomit and never want to touch it again. If some one ever wants help getting and staying clean, then I’ll do anything to help out. If using dope is what’s needed to get by, then fine as well. I just can’t hang with junkies too much as it’s dangerous for me. There is a sizeable minorty which chooses to self-medicate via all sorts of shit, some legal, some not and they should not be criminalized because of whatever metabilc issues of the brain they have and they choose illelgal ones. I like my drug dealers from the third world rather than large phramacuetical companies.

Dana – genious idea: do your own little initiation at the up-coming conference? The night before recreate as close a Bwiti initiation as possible, get twenty or so folk who have done it, pick a father, and take the plunge. I mean, what a cool place to do it and how often in NYC are there that many people who have been there all gathered together? Hell, I’d leave my wife, daughter and a temperate climate for a weekend in cold and misery to hear you talk about it. I’d be honored to be there while you go through it.

To who ever wrote that mushroom newbie bit: Oh teach me oh wise one…

Peace out all,
Steve.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:32:35 EST

Dear Vector,

I invited Peter to the Ibogaine Roundtable for a number of reasons.  1) Peter
is very well liked/loved/respected by many active European drug users because
he defends their dignity and humanity as drug users.  2) Peter is well known
in the harm reduction movement and I felt his presence at the Ibogaine
Roundtable would increase attendance at the meeting. 3) It appeared to me that the
session would be more interesting with someone providing counterpoint to the
“usual suspects” who are all very pro ibogaine, myself included, and 4) were we
able to hold the discussion part of the session I think Peter would have
provided valuable discussion points that could be responded to, demonstrating
ibogaine’s value.

I don’t think Peter is bashing ibogaine or people who are trying to stay
clean.  Peter is bashing a system that targets drug users to be victimized and I
am also opposed to that system.

I think ibogaine and its benefits can be well defended and its proponents can
respond adequately to Peter Cohen and I do believe that his presence and the
possibility of confrontation at the Ibogaine Roundtable increased conference
participation during the session allowing the greater message of ibogaine
benefits to reach a larger audience.

Peter is not bashing people who chose not to use drugs but, he might take
difference with your term, “staying clean” as it provides the inherent
stereotyping of a prohibitionist order that must demean drug users, a system to which
many of us fall victim.

I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all process and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

Howard
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

In a message dated 2/3/05 5:55:54 PM, vector620022002@yahoo.com writes:

>
>— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Is he in treatment or something ?
>
>He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.
>
>The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
>New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
>bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?
>
>I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
>you say so right in your own brochure.
>
>http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
>
>I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
>reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
>threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
>said.
>
>Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
>Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.
>
>What’s the point of doing all this?
>
>I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
>the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
>Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
>out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
>brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
>Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?
>
>.:vector:.
>
>> —– Original Message —–
>>   From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
>> Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
>>
>> In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
>
>> writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
>
>> Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
>> otherwise.
>> Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
>> is
>> not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
>> to
>> excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
>> to
>> attach to.
>>
>> I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination
>>
>> in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
>> not
>> harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
>> started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
>> unthinkable
>> even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
>> idea
>> in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )
>>
>> But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
>> addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
>> book
>> about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
>> USE
>> IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
>> (Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
>
>> mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
>> short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)
>>
>> We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
>
>> way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
>> abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
>
>> that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
>> users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
>> So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need
>>
>> treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
>> attribute
>> healing to.
>>
>> I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as
>>
>> we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
>> maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
>
>> for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
>> Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
>> seek
>> any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
>
>> seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband
>>
>> or wife we hate.
>> But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as
>>
>> it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
>> countries
>> for most (the rich excepted).
>> I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
>> lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
>> clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
>> agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
>> getting
>> rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.
>>
>> Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
>> and
>> smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
>> defeatist
>> voodoo ideology.
>>
>> Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
>> ciao
>> pc
>>
>> PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
>> Orleans
>> gig.
>>
>>
>> Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
>
>> getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> —
>>
>> ————————————————-
>> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
>> University of Amsterdam
>>
>> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
>> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
>> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>>
>> mail address: postbox  94208
>> 1090 GE Amsterdam
>> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
>> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
>> fax +31-20-525 4317
>>
>> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
>> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
>> languages)
>>

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 4, 2005 at 6:59:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick

Hope you are well I was wondering where you live???
love donnax

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 4, 2005 at 11:32:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Vector,

I invited Peter to the Ibogaine Roundtable for a number of reasons.  1) Peter
is very well liked/loved/respected by many active European drug users because
he defends their dignity and humanity as drug users.  2) Peter is well known
in the harm reduction movement and I felt his presence at the Ibogaine
Roundtable would increase attendance at the meeting. 3) It appeared to me that the
session would be more interesting with someone providing counterpoint to the
“usual suspects” who are all very pro ibogaine, myself included, and 4) were we
able to hold the discussion part of the session I think Peter would have
provided valuable discussion points that could be responded to, demonstrating
ibogaine’s value.

I don’t think Peter is bashing ibogaine or people who are trying to stay
clean.  Peter is bashing a system that targets drug users to be victimized and I
am also opposed to that system.

I think ibogaine and its benefits can be well defended and its proponents can
respond adequately to Peter Cohen and I do believe that his presence and the
possibility of confrontation at the Ibogaine Roundtable increased conference
participation during the session allowing the greater message of ibogaine
benefits to reach a larger audience.

Peter is not bashing people who chose not to use drugs but, he might take
difference with your term, “staying clean” as it provides the inherent
stereotyping of a prohibitionist order that must demean drug users, a system to which
many of us fall victim.

I was called out of the session during the period that Dana is reported to
have yelled at Peter and therefore cannot comment on that except to speculate
that Dana’s yelling may have been method of responding to Peter’s method of
initiating discussion of ibogaine by confrontation.  It is all process and if it
gets people thinking, all the better.

Howard
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

In a message dated 2/3/05 5:55:54 PM, vector620022002@yahoo.com writes:

— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter

writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.

Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a

mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any

way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture

that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And

for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we

seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for

getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Scarlett111967@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate
Date: February 4, 2005 at 9:46:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

please stop e-mailing me!!!! unsubscribe me now!!!!

From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Mayan Hot Chocolate
Date: February 4, 2005 at 9:30:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI list,

I recently contacted my provider in order to get some
tips on how to, well, feel better.  She suggested
having a Mayan Hot Chocolate once a day, especially
during the winter.  For those of you who haven’t seen
the movie Chocolat, Mayan hot chocolate is basically
hot chocolate with chilis in it.

List, this stuff rocks!  It really gives you a boost,
and I swear it’s a natural aphrodisiac.  There are a
couple of recipes online, but they seem pretty
complicated.  Just make hot chocolate with milk only,
and add dried, crushed red chili peppers according to
taste. YUM!

love Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 4, 2005 at 9:19:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Shell, I don’t think we ever listened to anybody when we were sprung, why start now? I don’t know who told you that, but it sounds like a rather narrow view of Ibogaine’s usefulness. If it were me I would step over whoever got in my way of happiness. You know what is right for you. Follow your heart.    “Free your mind and your ass will follow”  George Clinton      Randy

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 4, 2005 at 6:10:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi

What a bad withdrawal from bup I have never heard it being that bad what was your highest and lowest dose? could you not take some codine?
love Donna

From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hey OT-The Empire of Vulgarity
Date: February 4, 2005 at 4:27:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Zeek Democracy!!!!!!!

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Freak Show Research, Sleep, and Audio Pirates etc…
Date: February 4, 2005 at 3:13:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=4ngjwnxwvl3m6334gt7r&referrer=parent&backto=issue,4,5;journal,27,36;linkingpublicationresults,1:101902,1

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Freak Show Research, Sleep, and Audio Pirates etc…
Date: February 4, 2005 at 1:18:06 AM EST
To: guinie_pig@mkultra.cia.gov
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

<Starting Carnival Music Record>
Research!! Research!! Research!! Step Right Up!!:
http://www.asam.org/web/univ_res.htm

Sleep/Ibo/PTS:
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v08n1/08105and.html

I’m Looking for bootlegs of any of these:
http://www.audio-digest.org/cgi-bin/start/tapestores/tapestore.html?assoc_short=ASAM

ASAM’s 36th Annual Medical Scientific Conference
Information is now available

Plan to attend the American Society of Addiction
Medicine’s 36th Annual Medical Scientific Conference
in Dallas, Texas, April 14-17, 2005. ASAM is pleased
to welcome its members as well as nonmember
physicians, nurses, psychologists, counselors,
students and other health care professionals. The goal
of the 2005 annual conference is to advance the
quality of clinical addiction care by presenting the
most up-to-date information about research findings
and clinical practice in the addictions field. Program
sessions will focus on the latest scientific
developments and their implication for translation
into clinically useful knowledge.

Program information on The Ruth Fox Course for
Physicians, The Pain and Addiction: Common Threads VI
and the Buprenorphine and Office Based Treatment on
Opioid Dependence Course is also included.

ASAM 36th Annual Medical Scientific Conference
Brochure

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 10:21:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow Ekki, I wish I could read it in it’s original form. Whenever things are so beautiful when translated I always wonder at how they must sound in their original language. Thanks for turning me on to a new poet. I wish I could write like that. It must be an intense feeling to be able to express emotions and thoughts in a way that brings them to life like that.
Laura

— On Thu 02/03, ekki < ekkijdfg@gmx.de > wrote:

From: ekki [mailto: ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:53:29 +0100
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

sorry to be a smartass again but the first cheese factory was founded
1815 not 1875, Francis!

george trakl, great austrian poet, drug addict and pharmacist was born
feb 3 1887. he later killed himself with an overdose of coke iv during
WWI
i really like his poems, here is a translation of one of them. isnīt it
iboganistic?

De Profundis

There is a stubble field on which a black rain falls.
There is a tree which, brown, stands lonely here.
There is a hissing wind which haunts deserted huts—
How sad this evening.

Past the village pond
The gentle orphan still gathers scanty ears of corn.
Golden and round her eyes are gazing in the dusk
And her lap awaits the heavenly bridegroom.

Returning home
Shepherds found the sweet body
Decayed in the bramble bush.

A shade I am remote from sombre hamlets.
The silence of God
I drank from the woodland well.

On my forehead cold metal forms.
Spiders look for my heart.
There is a light that fails in my mouth.

At night I found myself upon a heath,
Thick with garbage and the dust of stars.
In the hazel copse
Crystal angels have sounded once more.

Translated by Jurek Kirakowski

Anonymous submission.

Georg Trakl

Am 03.02.2005 um 18:21 schrieb The Garden:

> Hi Preston !!
> The 3 february of 1959
>
> Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper. This date becomes
> known
> as ” the day, the Music died ”
> but the same day died the Italian singer Fred Buscaglione . That was
> one my
> favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce Vita Chianti with ice
> in
> summer !!. That was something , man.
>
>
> You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february 316 died Saint
> Blaise. He
> is believed to intercede for throat illness.
>
> Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia,
> died
> the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind reading and she is the
> patron Saint of Chester.
> Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to know, that ,
> ….read my
> lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the 3 february….
> 1875
> !!!
>
> That’all folks
> Francis
> God bless
> I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance, I thought it’s
> meams
> something to you
>
>

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 10:08:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Does anybody know if Peter is coming to the NYC conference in a couple weeks? I like the idea of self determination, but don’t think I agree that promoting Ibogaine is saying that all junkies are miserable and need to be cured. I would say to Peter that not everyone who does dope wants to stay on it and because opiates are so hard to come off of, Ibogaine is a miracle for some people, but maybe he realizes that because he does say that once drug users are accepted, then we can chose treatment only if we want it. I could see having him at a conference just to hear another point of view. Having a clashing view point could also make the Pro-Ibogaine stance stronger just by bringing opposing points of view out into the open and then dealing with them. By the way, does anybody know where I can get more info on the conference? Laura

— On Thu 02/03, < BiscuitBoy714@aol.com > wrote:

From: [mailto: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:59:39 EST
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views. Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox 94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com

From: “Jamilah” <jamilah@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey OT-The Empire of Vulgarity
Date: February 3, 2005 at 9:07:07 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry to those (few) on this list who support Bush, but we must rely on
Australian editorial that is quite perceptive about the US…. I decided to
share.

Peace,
Jamilah

Published on Friday, January 21, 2005 by the Sydney Morning Herald
(Australia)
——————-

The Empire of Vulgarity by Mike Carlton

George Bush’s second inaugural extravaganza was every bit as repugnant as I
had expected, a vulgar orgy of triumphalism probably unmatched since
Napoleon crowned himself emperor of the French in Notre Dame in 1804. The
little Corsican corporal had a few decent victories to his escutcheon. Lodi,
Marengo, that sort of thing. Not so this strutting Texan mountebank, with
his chimpanzee smirk and his born-again banalities delivered in that
constipated syntax that sounds the way cold cheeseburgers look, and his
grinning plastic wife, and his scheming junta of neo-con spivs, shamans,
flatterers and armchair warmongers, and his sinuous evasions and his brazen
lies, and his sleight of hand theft from the American poor, and his rape of
the environment, and his lethal conviction that the world must submit to his
Pax Americana or be bombed into charcoal.

Difficult to know what was more repellent: the estimated $US40 million cost
of this jamboree (most of it stumped up by Republican fat-cats buying future
presidential favours), or the sheer crassness of its excess when American
boys are dying in the quagmire of Bush’s very own Iraq war. Other wartime
presidents sought restraint. Abraham Lincoln’s second inaugural address in
1865 – “with malice toward none, with charity forall” – is the shortest
ever. And he had pretty much won the Civil War by that time. In 1944,
Franklin Delano Roosevelt opened his fourth-term speech with the “wish that
the form of this inauguration be simple and its words brief”. He spoke for a
couple of eloquent minutes, then went off to a light lunch, his wartime
victory almost complete as well.

But restraint is not a Dubya word. Learning nothing, the
dumbest and nastiest president since the scandalous Warren Harding died in
1923,Bush is now intent on expanding the Iraq war to neighbouring Iran.
Condoleezza Rice did admit to the US Senate this week that there had been
some “not so good” decisions. But the more I see of her gleamingteeth and
her fibreglass helmet of hair and her perky confidence, the more I am
convinced that back in the ’60s she used to be Cindy Birdsong, up there
beside Diana Ross as one of the Supremes of Motown fame. I don’t think it’s
a good idea to let her make a comeback as Secretary of State.

The war in Iran is under way already, if we believe Seymour Hersh, the
distinguished investigative writer for The New Yorker magazine. Hersh
reported this week that clandestine US special forces have been on the
ground there, targeting nuclear facilities to be bombed whenever Bush feels
the time is ripe. “The immediate goals of the attacks would be to destroy,
or at least temporarily derail, Iran’s ability to go nuclear,” he wrote,
quoting reliable intelligence sources. “But there are other, equally
purposeful, motives at work. The government consultant told me that the
hawks in the Pentagon, in private discussions, have been urging a limited
attack on Iran because they believe it could lead to a toppling of the
religious leadership.”

Naturally, Pentagon flacks rushed out to deny all. But then they did that
when Hersh broke the story of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam in 1968, and
again when he revealed the torture of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib. A
tussle for the truth between Hersh and the Pentagon is no contest. What
terrifies me most is the people planning this new war. The CIA professionals
have been frozen out: too weak and wimpy for the Bushies.

The Defense Secretary, the incompetent Donald Rumsfeld, has seized control,
aided by two Pentagon under-secretaries. One is Douglas Feith, a mad-eyed
Zionist largely responsible for the post-invasion collapse of order in Iraq,
a civilian bureaucrat memorably described by the former Centcom commander,
General Tommy Franks, as “the f—ing stupidest guy on the face of the
Earth”. The other is army Lieutenant General William G. (Jerry) Boykin,
whose name also rings a bell. Jerry is a born-again Christian evangelical, a
three-star bigot who, in his spare time, stumps the country in full uniform,
preaching that America’s enemy is Satan, Allah is a false idol, and that
George Bush has been ordained by the Lord to rout evil. “He’s in the White
House because God put him there for a time such as this,” Jerry told a
prayer meeting’ in Oregon just a while back.

Be very afraid.

Copyright; 2005 The Sydney

Morning Herald This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free
from http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm

—– Original Message —–
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey

Hey Randy,

Maaate I sure wish I could make it to New York also.

It would cost you about $2000 in air fares to get to Aus.
Of course,..you would stay with me so no accommodation costs
for you my bro’,…so,..when you arriving…. 🙂

I live by myself,..my choice,..so bro,..plenty of room.

I would love to see the states,..and will,..just don’t know when.
I hope by the end of the year.

Listening to David Bowie.

Love ya mate,
Jasen.

Jasen, I sure wish you could make it to New York for the conference. Of
course I can understand  how much it would cost. I just was wondering
how
much it
would take to get to Australia, and the mind boggles at the price. It’s
great
to see the love flowing in your words.             Randy

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Hey
Date: February 3, 2005 at 8:52:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,

I have dreamed of comming to the states since a teenager. To hire a convertible or a Harley and drive along the coast stopping here and there,free and easy,..
picking up a hitchhiker here and there,..meeting people,..yeah,..soon.

Sara is most definatley the coolest.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey

Jasen, I love David Bowie. I do Diamond Dogs and Ziggy Stardust out live when the mood is right. I have wanted to see Australia all of my life. If I had my way I would sail there working my way on the boat. I’m gonna’ come, but between you and me, I have a quest to fulfill first with the underground Ibogaine movement. People need this, I won’t be stopped. I’ll fill you in on the skinny of what happens in New York City at the conference. It ought to be pretty wild. You come to the states and you can stay with me wherever I am. I’m sure everyone else would love to see you in NYC. My Mom has a beautiful place in the Catskill Mountains and she would love to see you too. She reads the list and watched me do the Ibogaine. Sara helped her to deal with what was going on with me afterwards. Sara is so cool, but I don’t have to tell you that.                 Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey
Date: February 3, 2005 at 8:41:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I thought my last message was going out to Jasen private E mail. Sorry bout that.   Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey
Date: February 3, 2005 at 8:35:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jasen, I love David Bowie. I do Diamond Dogs and Ziggy Stardust out live when the mood is right. I have wanted to see Australia all of my life. If I had my way I would sail there working my way on the boat. I’m gonna’ come, but between you and me, I have a quest to fulfill first with the underground Ibogaine movement. People need this, I won’t be stopped. I’ll fill you in on the skinny of what happens in New York City at the conference. It ought to be pretty wild. You come to the states and you can stay with me wherever I am. I’m sure everyone else would love to see you in NYC. My Mom has a beautiful place in the Catskill Mountains and she would love to see you too. She reads the list and watched me do the Ibogaine. Sara helped her to deal with what was going on with me afterwards. Sara is so cool, but I don’t have to tell you that.                 Randy

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OTFT :How many group posters does it take to chan…
Date: February 3, 2005 at 8:28:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I like this definition :
An underground leaf bud enwrapped in fleshy scales or coats.
” how long it take, for a bulb to loose all his scales?
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OTFT :How many group posters does it take to chan…

No, dear Randy, it’s when you have a bad Daffodil growing year and all your bulbs are “light”. The heavier the better as this means it contains better and bigger Daffs.
(Bulb Technician)
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, 4 February 2005 8:50 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to chan…

What’s a light bulb? Is that the thing that hangs over your head when you have an idea?      R

–
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004

–
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey
Date: February 3, 2005 at 7:55:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,

Maaate I sure wish I could make it to New York also.

It would cost you about $2000 in air fares to get to Aus.
Of course,..you would stay with me so no accommodation costs
for you my bro’,…so,..when you arriving…. 🙂

I live by myself,..my choice,..so bro,..plenty of room.

I would love to see the states,..and will,..just don’t know when.
I hope by the end of the year.

Listening to David Bowie.

Love ya mate,
Jasen.

Jasen, I sure wish you could make it to New York for the conference. Of
course I can understand  how much it would cost. I just was wondering how much it
would take to get to Australia, and the mind boggles at the price. It’s great
to see the love flowing in your words.             Randy

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OTFT :How many group posters does it take to chan…
Date: February 3, 2005 at 7:23:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No, dear Randy, it’s when you have a bad Daffodil growing year and all your bulbs are “light”. The heavier the better as this means it contains better and bigger Daffs.
(Bulb Technician)
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, 4 February 2005 8:50 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to chan…

What’s a light bulb? Is that the thing that hangs over your head when you have an idea?      R

–
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004

–
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 6:42:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter Cohen is good for legalization of drugs.
For the rest he had no understanding of how Iboga works
Because he can’t know until he will try it, and if he will than for sure
He will change his mind, but I guess he likes the party drugs better.
Anyway because Iboga/ine is presented as a medication and not as a sacrament
and a spiritual tool, then he gets to see only one side of the picture,
I’m sure that if it was presented as an amazing trip to the unknown
Then it will get another spot light.

When I speak to him I tell him , he should try it before judge it.

“you never know”.

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 23:53
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 6:34:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I put this out for the people like myself who weren’t at the conference in New Orleans. I think we should be informed of all views about Ibogaine. I find it irresponsible for a man in his position to downplay something that works. I thought long and hard before I replied to him, and then I put it on the list. I was flabbergasted to say the least at what he had to say to me. This guy has a Ph.D., people listen to what he has to say. This kind of shit shouldn’t be ignored. It’s dangerous.               Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 6:31:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

These are drugs of repression and the upside is….you don’t have to feel things you might otherwise have to…the downside is…by cutting yourself from your feelings in this way you simultaneously cut yourself off from your POWER.<

So, I should suffer in pain for the rest of my life, because I’m cutting myself off from my power with my opiate use otherwise?
I tend to find that when I use opiates to one degree or other (and it varies) I am feeling more powerful and more able to accomplish things in my day and to actually get through my day without repeatedly telling my V how I want to “jump out the window” because I’m hurting or some other depressing thing. And this is after using ibogaine twice now Nick.
So while I do see a need for ibogaine in this day and age of prohibition and even in days of no prohibition, I don’t personally think we should be telling people that using opiates is always bad and that they must submit and succumb to treatment or else.

So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.<

What does this mean Nick?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Look, Peter, talking about heroin and methadone, yes, you need to push the idealogical arguments as hard as you can, for one simple reason.  These are drugs of repression and the upside is….you don’t have to feel things you might otherwise have to…the downside is…by cutting yourself from your feelings in this way you simultaneously cut yourself off from your POWER.

So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Good luck!

Nick   www.ibogaine.co.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 20:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Sure , he makes a point here and there, but he doesn’t show understanding for those who like to change to a non drug user,without withdrawals please.

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 21:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter writes: I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.           Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Peter Cohen Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 5:53:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:

Is he in treatment or something ?

He’s a PHD who is director of a drug research institute.

The question I have is, why did Howard want Patrick to invite him to
New Orleans and talk on a ibogaine panel, where all he’s doing is
bashing ibogaine and people who are trying to stay clean?

I don’t get it. This isn’t gossip or repeating what someone else said,
you say so right in your own brochure.

http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html

I don’t have the messages in front of me, but the after conference
reports were all negative about Peter Cohen. Dana Beal yelled at him or
threatened to hit him and there isn’t anyone who agreed with what he
said.

Why keep pulling him into ibogaine when all he does is bash it? Even
Randy’s letter got a rant for a reply.

What’s the point of doing all this?

I don’t take the gossip seriously, it always comes and goes, but when
the people being talked about are clearly talking for themselves.
Howard says he did want him there and invited him and then Peter sends
out anti-ibogaine rants and how people who support ibogaine are
brainwashed. You’ve lost me, what’s the reasoning behind why Peter
Cohen is a good thing for ibogaine or anything else?

.:vector:.

—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter
writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own.
Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks
otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo
is
not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment,
to
excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem
to
attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination

in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do
not
harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that
started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite
unthinkable
even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous
idea
in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird
addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948
book
about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said
USE
IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a
mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how
short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any
way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into
abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture
that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug
users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need

treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we
attribute
healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as

we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that
maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And
for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to
seek
any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we
seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband

or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as

it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many
countries
for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say
lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative)
clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA
agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is
getting
rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable
and
smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their
defeatist
voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New
Orleans
gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for
getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.
Randy

————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 5:30:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/3/05 2:54:37 PM, skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:

Hi List,hey I’ve got a question burning me up , when I recently went provider
shopping ,a prior provider said that since i’ve used ibogaine 3 times ,i’ve
probably learned all I can from it,why keep beating myself up with it &
try something different, this is undoubtedly a refreshing idea. However,
I’m feeling more confused than ever.

Sometimes regardless how many times you are given information it may take one
more time, or never, to figure it out.  I refer to Stan Glick’s rats.  Some
responded on the first dose, some on the fourth, some didn’t.  You have to
figure out the dose regimen that includes times administered that may work for
you.  There are no set rules. Nor is there a requirement for any particular
provider to continue to treat any particular patient, or not.

Howard

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:51:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Shelley !
Your E-Mail fill me with compassion, I wish I had an answer 🙁

You wrote :
“You know ,i had 10 years sobriety at one point & loved it.”
What stop you, now, to use the same tools that functioned the first time ?
Love
Francis

—– Original Message —–
From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:53 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Question!!!

Hi List,hey I’ve got a question burning me up , when I recently went provider shopping ,a prior provider said that since i’ve used ibogaine 3 times ,i’ve probably learned all I can from it,why keep beating myself up with it & try something different, this is undoubtedly a refreshing idea. However, I’m feeling more confused than ever. I just did the buprenex detox ,& I did it right too(!) But I am back on short acting for now .It was too hard trying to work thru the bup withdrawal, had a 100 degree fever, diarrhea on the 2nd day ,( not supposed to go into w/d for at least a coupla days) (guess I’m a fast metabolizer), muscle cramps ,etc. Not to mention a real labile mood that doesnt work well on a psych units I work on. So I started investigating ibogaine again,seems logical,no? I have read that most folks are more successful with repeated sessions, but was never informed this origonally,actually found that info here or maybe erwoid.Guess this is the ? I’,m wondering about ,repeated doses & successWha is gonna work for me. A part of me triesto get away with as much as possible ,like a perverse risk taking deal, kinda hoping thats not unusual for an addict.Me,me ,me,yuck .I’m so confused right now. You know ,i had 10 years sobriety at one point & loved it.Well ,thanks for letting me go on -your confused fellow ibonaut-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Preston, I’d like to make a memorial to all the rockers who have gone down like that. I think about how Ibogaine might have saved us a great player like Sid, or Janis, or Brian Jones …………… the list would be awfully long.      Randy

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:40:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Look, Peter, talking about heroin and methadone, yes, you need to push the idealogical arguments as hard as you can, for one simple reason.  These are drugs of repression and the upside is….you don’t have to feel things you might otherwise have to…the downside is…by cutting yourself from your feelings in this way you simultaneously cut yourself off from your POWER.

So, you need to keep the arguments ideological and strictly in the mind.

Good luck!

Nick   www.ibogaine.co.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 03 February 2005 20:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

Sure , he makes a point here and there, but he doesn’t show understanding for those who like to change to a non drug user,without withdrawals please.

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 21:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.           Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam
Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:38:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is he in treatment or something ?
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.           Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:34:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

this santa claus fly agaric story:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3136.html

Am 03.02.2005 um 21:19 schrieb Nick Sandberg:

About amanita muscaria, fly agaric a man called James Arthur will tell you
both Jesus and Santa were Fly agarics.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:19:48 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Think Sid died on the 2nd, I used to have one of the t-shirts with the Sun’s
coverstory Sid Vicious Dead. Sure it was dated Feb 3, the day after.

About amanita muscaria, fly agaric a man called James Arthur will tell you
both Jesus and Santa were Fly agarics.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: 03 February 2005 17:22
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re:
[DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

Hi  Preston !!
The 3 february of 1959

Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper. This date
becomes known
as ” the day, the Music died ”
but the same day died the Italian singer Fred Buscaglione . That
was one my
favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce Vita Chianti with ice in
summer !!. That was something , man.

You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february 316 died Saint
Blaise. He
is believed to intercede for throat illness.

Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia, died
the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind reading and she is the
patron Saint of Chester.
Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to know, that , ….read my
lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the 3 february….  1875
!!!

That’all folks
Francis
God bless
I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance, I thought it’s meams
something to you

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

those of us who like the Sex Pistols?
Those of us who might need a reminder that drugs can be dangerous?
Why are you insisting on being such a blue meanie?
(Maybe I shoulda clipped this, but I posted it for the Sid “news” and
forgot
there was more besides the Neil Young lyrics too. Please excuse
me, those
of
you who just can’t be cheerful or must have something shitty to
say, just
to
let me and the rest of us too know you have “verve” or “a spine” or are
simply feeling “bitchy” or … no, I will snip that one, no need to go
there.)

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re:
[DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

So ??!
Who cares ?
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:53 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:10 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of
drug
overdose – OT 2 some

As I was reading this thread, this song was running thru my mind.

NEIL YOUNG – Needle And The Damage Done

I caught you knockin’
at my cellar door
I love you, baby,
can I have some more
Ooh, ooh, the damage done.

I hit the city and
I lost my band
I watched the needle
take another man
Gone, gone, the damage done.

I sing the song
because I love the man
I know that some
of you don’t understand
Milk-blood
to keep from running out.

I’ve seen the needle
and the damage done
A little part of it in everyone
But every junkie’s
like a settin’ sun.

At 12:55 AM 2/3/05, Preston Peet wrote:
because dear Steven, Feb. 3 is the day after Sid died, in other
words,
it’s been 25 years, an annivercary of sorts.
He died of a drug overdose so it’s on topic.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet the moderator

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Steven M. Cooper
To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose –
OT 2 some

WTF is this posted for?  The dateline on the story is 25 years old,
for
chrissakes!  This is not news, this is recycled BS.

There has been a lot of garbage posts to drugwar lately –
and WAY too
much
off topic crap.  If people want to carry on OT personal
conversations,
why
not do it by private e-mail, eh?
—–Original Message—–
From: Max Robinson [mailto:maddmaxx46323@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:58 PM
Cc: [DrugWar]
Subject: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,12269,1404116,00.html

Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose
By a Staff Reporter
Saturday February 3, 1979
<snip>

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:14:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sure , he makes a point here and there, but he doesn’t show understanding for those who like to change to a non drug user,without withdrawals please.

Sara

Van: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Verzonden: donderdag 3 februari 2005 21:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.           Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam
Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:14:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi List,hey I’ve got a question burning me up , when I recently went provider shopping ,a prior provider said that since i’ve used ibogaine 3 times ,i’ve probably learned all I can from it,why keep beating myself up with it & try something different, this is undoubtedly a refreshing idea.<

argh.
I tend to be feeling that when taking ibogaine I was pretty in touch with another place entirely, and it was very religious and spiritual- and I can’t imagine learning everything I could learn from ibogaine with just three sessions. I’m sorry, but that’s an odd perspective to me, personally that is.
Why not try it again? It does work at averting those withdrawals, and is a pretty amazing substance at altering ones viewpoint somewhat about things in general, from my own experience anyway, so why not try it again?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:53 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Question!!!

Hi List,hey I’ve got a question burning me up , when I recently went provider shopping ,a prior provider said that since i’ve used ibogaine 3 times ,i’ve probably learned all I can from it,why keep beating myself up with it & try something different, this is undoubtedly a refreshing idea. However, I’m feeling more confused than ever. I just did the buprenex detox ,& I did it right too(!) But I am back on short acting for now .It was too hard trying to work thru the bup withdrawal, had a 100 degree fever, diarrhea on the 2nd day ,( not supposed to go into w/d for at least a coupla days) (guess I’m a fast metabolizer), muscle cramps ,etc. Not to mention a real labile mood that doesnt work well on a psych units I work on. So I started investigating ibogaine again,seems logical,no? I have read that most folks are more successful with repeated sessions, but was never informed this origonally,actually found that info here or maybe erwoid.Guess this is the ? I’,m ! wondering about ,repeated doses & successWha is gonna work for me. A part of me triesto get away with as much as possible ,like a perverse risk taking deal, kinda hoping thats not unusual for an addict.Me,me ,me,yuck .I’m so confused right now. You know ,i had 10 years sobriety at one point & loved it.Well ,thanks for letting me go on -your confused fellow ibonaut-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Preston, I’d like to make a memorial to all the rockers who have gone down like that. I think about how Ibogaine might have saved us a great player like Sid, or Janis, or Brian Jones …………… the list would be awfully long.      Randy

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] oxytrex
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:09:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yeah, exactly, I do too, which is sorta what I was implying by “remarkable.”

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] oxytrex

i remember demerol , talwin and darvon as being non-addictive. i could always work a jones off of each.  but then i’m a light weight. ron..wishing all that peaceful path
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] oxytrex

wow, interesting, thanks Howard.
No withdrawals or habit? Sounds pretty remarkable.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:19 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] oxytrex

http://www.paintrials.com/oxytrex.html

OXYTREX™

For the treatment of chronic pain, such as severe osteoarthritic pain,
cancer pain or low-back pain
•   Phase III trials initiated June 2003 and March 2004
•   $1.9 billion market opportunity

Our lead candidate is a novel oral opioid called Oxytrex. Oxytrex is a small
molecule drug that is currently in a Phase III clinical program. We are
developing Oxytrex to treat severe chronic pain, such as low back, osteoarthritic
pain or cancer pain.

Previous clinical results have shown that Oxytrex provides enhanced pain
relief and prolonged pain relief. In a previously announced Phase II study with
350 patients suffering from severe osteoarthritic pain, Oxytrex reduced
patients’ pain scores by over 40% (p<0.001 vs. placebo and p=0.006 vs. oxycodone) over
a 21-day treatment period. By comparison, oxycodone reduced patients’ pain
scores by 24%. Published pre-clinical results also demonstrate that the
technology used in Oxytrex results in a lack of opioid addiction, tolerance, physical
dependence or withdrawal symptoms in animals.

In June 2003, we announced the initiation of our first Phase III efficacy
study. This randomized, double-blinded study compares the analgesic efficacy of
Oxytrex against placebo and oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up
to 700 patients with severe chronic low-back pain. In March of 2004, we
initiated a second Phase III clinical study of Oxytrex. This randomized,
double-blinded study will compare the analgesic efficacy of Oxytrex against placebo and
oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up to 700 patients with
severe chronic osteoarthritic pain.

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: the ibogaine clan
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:59:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 1/16/2005 5:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter writes:       I sat on this for 2 weeks. I wrote this guy on my own. Howard had nothing to do with this, I don’t know why Peter thinks otherwise.
Randy, my short-too short- argument in Nw Orelans was that using ibo is not much else than using methadone or some other drug or treatment, to excorcise these ‘diabolical’ drugs and use-patterns some people seem to attach to.

I think that our main fight should be to fight for self determination in the choice of drug we like, and the way we use it ( given we do not harm others more than the normal amount). Its the same fight that started in the Enlightment for freedom of religeon ( quite unthinkable even in the times of  Calvin and still a weird and ultra dangerous idea in the 17th century and now in e.g. Iran )

But, the ibogaine game puts us in the same league as these weird addiction doctors that need to cure us. Just today I bought a 1948 book about the cure of homosexuality. Imagine a group of people who said USE IBOGAINE TO GET RID OF YOUR (CURSED) HOMOSEXUALITY.
(Actually, a medically discussed 1948 method of cure was to inhale a mixture  of some gasses-right after the war!!-,can you imagine how short ago maxi primitive ideas reigned about homosexuality!)

We should have the right to use heroin or cocaine or whatever in any way we like for any duration, and we should not be forced into abstinence by a cumulation of social misery put upon us by a culture that for some reason I do not discuss here has created intense drug users into lepers, nuking their pride and self esteem.
So, fighting for ibo treatment is saying: we miserable creatures need treatment, only please let US choose the miracle treatment we attribute healing to.

I say, fight first and foremost for the right to use drugs as long as we want in the amount and system we want ,against a State that maintains intense drug users as witches to be chased and burned. And for which the ibo clan now makes ibogaine available to burn on.
Once we have this right, we will of course also have the right to seek any kind of assistence if we need help to change our ways,just as we seek assistence in any way if we somehow can not divorce this husband or wife we hate.
But this assistence only makes sense if divorce is not prohibited, as it was in christian Europe well into the 20th century in many countries for most (the rich excepted).
I see the ibo clan as a miserable symptom of defeat. As if they say lets not burn witches on a ( normal) stake, but in an (alternative) clay oven. I also said once that I see the ibo people as DEA agents,serving the cause of prohibition because their theme is getting rid of these ‘ultra dangerous’ drugs.

Now, most of the ibo clan people I know are sincere folk, likeable and smart. My anger is not so much focussed on them, but on their defeatist voodoo ideology.

Tell me what you think and where I am not clear enough.
ciao
pc

PS .Howard, I’d prefer you add this as txt representing my New Orleans gig.

Thanx a bunch Peter. I need all the input I can get. Thanx a lot for getting back to me. I’m very interested in your views.           Randy


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:55:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I found this :
“Such love does the sky now pour, that whenever I stand in a field, I have to wring out the light when I get home.”
St Francis
“You can change the village but you can’t change the well”
I ching
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

Hi Ekki !!
You are absolutly right 1915 🙂

Beautiful poem, I can feel the desesperation of this man within : the silence of God .
Francis
God bless

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

sorry to be a smartass again but the first cheese factory was founded 1815 not 1875, Francis!

george trakl, great austrian poet, drug addict and pharmacist was born feb 3 1887. he later killed himself with an overdose of coke iv during WWI
i really like his poems, here is a translation of one of them. isn´t it iboganistic?

De Profundis

There is a stubble field on which a black rain falls.
There is a tree which, brown, stands lonely here.
There is a hissing wind which haunts deserted huts—
How sad this evening.

Past the village pond
The gentle orphan still gathers scanty ears of corn.
Golden and round her eyes are gazing in the dusk
And her lap awaits the heavenly bridegroom.

Returning home
Shepherds found the sweet body
Decayed in the bramble bush.

A shade I am remote from sombre hamlets.
The silence of God
I drank from the woodland well.

On my forehead cold metal forms.
Spiders look for my heart.
There is a light that fails in my mouth.

At night I found myself upon a heath,
Thick with garbage and the dust of stars.
In the hazel copse
Crystal angels have sounded once more.

Translated by Jurek Kirakowski

Anonymous submission.

Georg Trakl

Am 03.02.2005 um 18:21 schrieb The Garden:

Hi Preston !!
The 3 february of 1959

Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper. This date becomes known
as ” the day, the Music died ”
but the same day died the Italian singer Fred Buscaglione . That was one my
favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce Vita Chianti with ice in
summer !!. That was something , man.

You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february 316 died Saint Blaise. He
is believed to intercede for throat illness.

Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia, died
the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind reading and she is the
patron Saint of Chester.
Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to know, that , ….read my
lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the 3 february…. 1875
!!!

That’all folks
Francis
God bless
I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance, I thought it’s meams
something to you

From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Question!!!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:53:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi List,hey I’ve got a question burning me up , when I recently went provider shopping ,a prior provider said that since i’ve used ibogaine 3 times ,i’ve probably learned all I can from it,why keep beating myself up with it & try something different, this is undoubtedly a refreshing idea. However, I’m feeling more confused than ever. I just did the buprenex detox ,& I did it right too(!) But I am back on short acting for now .It was too hard trying to work thru the bup withdrawal, had a 100 degree fever, diarrhea on the 2nd day ,( not supposed to go into w/d for at least a coupla days) (guess I’m a fast metabolizer), muscle cramps ,etc. Not to mention a real labile mood that doesnt work well on a psych units I work on. So I started investigating ibogaine again,seems logical,no? I have read that most folks are more successful with repeated sessions, but was never informed this origonally,actually found that info here or maybe erwoid.Guess this is the ? I’,m wondering about ,repeated doses & successWha is gonna work for me. A part of me triesto get away with as much as possible ,like a perverse risk taking deal, kinda hoping thats not unusual for an addict.Me,me ,me,yuck .I’m so confused right now. You know ,i had 10 years sobriety at one point & loved it.Well ,thanks for letting me go on -your confused fellow ibonaut-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Preston, I’d like to make a memorial to all the rockers who have gone down like that. I think about how Ibogaine might have saved us a great player like Sid, or Janis, or Brian Jones …………… the list would be awfully long.      Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to chan…
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:49:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What’s a light bulb? Is that the thing that hangs over your head when you have an idea?      R

From: chayco@island.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:37:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Quoting Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net>:

the caterpillar in “Alice In Wonderland”? just a guess. ron

Yes, that is the one, red with white dots….not the caterpiller, the mushroom.
In the ‘olden days’ in Russia the village folk would collect these mushrooms
(spring/fall) and feed them (and copious amounts of water) to the local
‘village idiot’. Once the village idiot was well under way they would collect
his urine and pass it around to the local psychonauts. The idea was that the
‘idiots’ system would filter out toxins and leave a cleaner ‘high’.  Kids do
not attempt this at home.

…..Ken

—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

snip..

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that
makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping.
She
disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m
going
to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want
as
much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and
commune
with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that
condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very
much
enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going
out
in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the
dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the
solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

Eating mushrooms (psilocybe cubensis) is akin to watching a movie rather
than taking part in one. Eating Iboga is akin to taking part in a movie
that
you are watching.

Stepping it up a notch you may want to try Aminita Muscaria (a wild
mushroom). The active drug is muscarine rather than psylicybin. One fungus
eater mentioned once that it was like STP that didn’t stop.

…….Ken

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious die…
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:32:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, I’d like to make a memorial to all the rockers who have gone down like that. I think about how Ibogaine might have saved us a great player like Sid, or Janis, or Brian Jones …………… the list would be awfully long.      Randy

From: chayco@island.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:26:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Quoting Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>:

Eating mushrooms (psilocybe cubensis) is akin to watching a movie rather
than taking part in one. Eating Iboga is akin to taking part in a movie that
you are watching.<

While for the most part I do agree with you Ken, that ibogaine was
definitely much more “I’m right in this thing I’m seeing, not merely
watching,” having eaten such amounts of shrooms at one or two various times
in my life, I’ve experienced some things with shrooms that were remarkably
close to ibogaine’s visual effects actually, though not quite so long
lasting, and not quite as dark, although even that isn’t necessarily true
for one voyage on shrooms I can distinctly remember.

Mushrooms (psylocibe varieties) are interesting at best and newbies are always
agog with psycho babble insight. Psylicibin is ‘cute’…can’t deny it.
Consumers should be aware of fungicides that some growers have to resort to, on
occasion, to control contaminants.When growing ‘shrooms it is a race with
contamination, initially you are growing in a ‘clean’ environment and then
contaminants enter the room as the crop is harvested, resulting in some bizarre
and horrendous lifeforms attaching themselves to your once ‘clean’ grow room
environment.

A wise ‘shroom consumer should request ‘first crop’ cubensis mushrooms rather
than 2/3/4 crop ‘shrooms. Ahhh, but dealers don’t know squat and will just
charge you more and lie to you.

It is amazing what shady past lives we have had….but my ‘debt to society has
been paid’…in full.

…..Ken

—————————————————————-
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] oxytrex
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:13:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i remember demerol , talwin and darvon as being non-addictive. i could always work a jones off of each.  but then i’m a light weight.  ron..wishing all that peaceful path
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] oxytrex

wow, interesting, thanks Howard.
No withdrawals or habit? Sounds pretty remarkable.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:19 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] oxytrex

http://www.paintrials.com/oxytrex.html

OXYTREX™

For the treatment of chronic pain, such as severe osteoarthritic pain,
cancer pain or low-back pain
•   Phase III trials initiated June 2003 and March 2004
•   $1.9 billion market opportunity

Our lead candidate is a novel oral opioid called Oxytrex. Oxytrex is a small
molecule drug that is currently in a Phase III clinical program. We are
developing Oxytrex to treat severe chronic pain, such as low back, osteoarthritic
pain or cancer pain.

Previous clinical results have shown that Oxytrex provides enhanced pain
relief and prolonged pain relief. In a previously announced Phase II study with
350 patients suffering from severe osteoarthritic pain, Oxytrex reduced
patients’ pain scores by over 40% (p<0.001 vs. placebo and p=0.006 vs. oxycodone) over
a 21-day treatment period. By comparison, oxycodone reduced patients’ pain
scores by 24%. Published pre-clinical results also demonstrate that the
technology used in Oxytrex results in a lack of opioid addiction, tolerance, physical
dependence or withdrawal symptoms in animals.

In June 2003, we announced the initiation of our first Phase III efficacy
study. This randomized, double-blinded study compares the analgesic efficacy of
Oxytrex against placebo and oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up
to 700 patients with severe chronic low-back pain. In March of 2004, we
initiated a second Phase III clinical study of Oxytrex. This randomized,
double-blinded study will compare the analgesic efficacy of Oxytrex against placebo and
oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up to 700 patients with
severe chronic osteoarthritic pain.

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:03:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

the caterpillar in “Alice In Wonderland”? just a guess. ron
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

snip..

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that
makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping.
She
disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m
going
to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want
as
much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and commune
with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that
condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very
much
enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going out
in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the
dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the
solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

Eating mushrooms (psilocybe cubensis) is akin to watching a movie rather
than taking part in one. Eating Iboga is akin to taking part in a movie that
you are watching.

Stepping it up a notch you may want to try Aminita Muscaria (a wild
mushroom). The active drug is muscarine rather than psylicybin. One fungus
eater mentioned once that it was like STP that didn’t stop.

…….Ken

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:02:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki !!
You are absolutly right 1915 🙂

Beautiful poem, I can feel the desesperation of this man within : the silence of God .
Francis
God bless

—– Original Message —–
From: ekki
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

sorry to be a smartass again but the first cheese factory was founded 1815 not 1875, Francis!

george trakl, great austrian poet, drug addict and pharmacist was born feb 3 1887. he later killed himself with an overdose of coke iv during WWI
i really like his poems, here is a translation of one of them. isn´t it iboganistic?

De Profundis

There is a stubble field on which a black rain falls.
There is a tree which, brown, stands lonely here.
There is a hissing wind which haunts deserted huts—
How sad this evening.

Past the village pond
The gentle orphan still gathers scanty ears of corn.
Golden and round her eyes are gazing in the dusk
And her lap awaits the heavenly bridegroom.

Returning home
Shepherds found the sweet body
Decayed in the bramble bush.

A shade I am remote from sombre hamlets.
The silence of God
I drank from the woodland well.

On my forehead cold metal forms.
Spiders look for my heart.
There is a light that fails in my mouth.

At night I found myself upon a heath,
Thick with garbage and the dust of stars.
In the hazel copse
Crystal angels have sounded once more.

Translated by Jurek Kirakowski

Anonymous submission.

Georg Trakl

Am 03.02.2005 um 18:21 schrieb The Garden:

Hi Preston !!
The 3 february of 1959

Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper. This date becomes known
as ” the day, the Music died ”
but the same day died the Italian singer Fred Buscaglione . That was one my
favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce Vita Chianti with ice in
summer !!. That was something , man.

You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february 316 died Saint Blaise. He
is believed to intercede for throat illness.

Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia, died
the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind reading and she is the
patron Saint of Chester.
Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to know, that , ….read my
lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the 3 february…. 1875
!!!

That’all folks
Francis
God bless
I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance, I thought it’s meams
something to you

From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] speed kills
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:41:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A bill has recently been introduced in the U.S. senate to limit the sale of the ingredients for making meth. Usually I’m not in favor of prohibition, except in this case. The only reason this bill will not pass is because of the lobbying efforts of the National Association of Chain Drug Stores. Frankly they make loads of cash from speed. People only get the occasional flu, but crank addicts need a constant supply to keep awake for months at a time. A very destructive drug. If anyone feels the desire to support this bill please write Senator Diane Feinstein at http://feinstein.senate.gov/email.html, Senator Jim Talent at http://talent.senate.gov/Contact/default.cfm. Fun fact: Ephedrine manufactures have donated 5 million to Orin Hatch of Utah.

Calls for cold medicine curbs in meth war

WASHINGTON (AP) — The fight against methamphetamine may be moving from the streets to the corner drug store.

A dozen Republican and Democratic senators want to put nonprescription cold medicines that contain pseudoephedrine, the main ingredient used to make meth, behind the counter. Consumers would have to talk to a pharmacy worker and show photo ID before purchasing Sudafed, Tylenol flu medicine or other popular remedies.

Local law enforcement officials applaud the proposed legislation, but drug industry groups are lining up against it. They argue it would create unacceptable barriers for regular customers with a headache, fever or runny nose.

“It will limit access for the legitimate consumers to cough and cold products,” said Mary Ann Wagner, vice president for pharmacy regulatory affairs at the National Association of Chain Drug Stores. “They’re going to have to wait in line with everybody else, take the pharmacist away from their prescription customers to police the sales of the pseudoephedrine products.”

Supporters dispute that.

“Consumers can buy two or three packages of this at once at the same place they’ve been buying all their drugs, so the point is to cut off the meth cooks while allowing consumers to have access,” said Sen. Jim Talent, R-Missouri, who was announcing the legislation Wednesday with Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, and others.

Their bill, modeled on an Oklahoma law that took effect last April, says that medicines with pseudoephedrine must be dispensed by a licensed pharmacist or pharmacy technician, and purchasers must show ID with their date of birth and sign for the product. Buyers are limited to 9 grams — or 366 30-milligram pills — in a 30-day period.

The government can make exceptions in areas where pharmacies are not easily accessible.

Local law enforcement officials have seen methamphetamine production skyrocket in recent years, often cooked in small quantities in kitchens or trailers. The Drug Enforcement Administration reported that more than 7,000 meth labs were dismantled nationwide in 2003.

Oklahoma officials say their law has had dramatic results, driving down meth lab seizures more than 80 percent. But pharmaceutical industry officials say the explanation isn’t so clear and contend that demand reduction should be addressed.

Feinstein introduced legislation during the last congressional session to limit purchases of pseudoephedrine products, but it was opposed by the drug industry and never got a vote in the Senate. The new bill already has 12 co-sponsors, and Feinstein said the DEA has indicated support.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] oxytrex
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:32:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

wow, interesting, thanks Howard.
No withdrawals or habit? Sounds pretty remarkable.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:19 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] oxytrex

http://www.paintrials.com/oxytrex.html

OXYTREX™

For the treatment of chronic pain, such as severe osteoarthritic pain,
cancer pain or low-back pain
•   Phase III trials initiated June 2003 and March 2004
•   $1.9 billion market opportunity

Our lead candidate is a novel oral opioid called Oxytrex. Oxytrex is a small
molecule drug that is currently in a Phase III clinical program. We are
developing Oxytrex to treat severe chronic pain, such as low back, osteoarthritic
pain or cancer pain.

Previous clinical results have shown that Oxytrex provides enhanced pain
relief and prolonged pain relief. In a previously announced Phase II study with
350 patients suffering from severe osteoarthritic pain, Oxytrex reduced
patients’ pain scores by over 40% (p<0.001 vs. placebo and p=0.006 vs. oxycodone) over
a 21-day treatment period. By comparison, oxycodone reduced patients’ pain
scores by 24%. Published pre-clinical results also demonstrate that the
technology used in Oxytrex results in a lack of opioid addiction, tolerance, physical
dependence or withdrawal symptoms in animals.

In June 2003, we announced the initiation of our first Phase III efficacy
study. This randomized, double-blinded study compares the analgesic efficacy of
Oxytrex against placebo and oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up
to 700 patients with severe chronic low-back pain. In March of 2004, we
initiated a second Phase III clinical study of Oxytrex. This randomized,
double-blinded study will compare the analgesic efficacy of Oxytrex against placebo and
oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up to 700 patients with
severe chronic osteoarthritic pain.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:31:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Eating mushrooms (psilocybe cubensis) is akin to watching a movie rather
than taking part in one. Eating Iboga is akin to taking part in a movie that
you are watching.<

While for the most part I do agree with you Ken, that ibogaine was definitely much more “I’m right in this thing I’m seeing, not merely watching,” having eaten such amounts of shrooms at one or two various times in my life, I’ve experienced some things with shrooms that were remarkably close to ibogaine’s visual effects actually, though not quite so long lasting, and not quite as dark, although even that isn’t necessarily true for one voyage on shrooms I can distinctly remember.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>; <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

snip..

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that
makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping.
She
disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m
going
to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want
as
much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and commune
with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that
condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very
much
enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going out
in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the
dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the
solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

Eating mushrooms (psilocybe cubensis) is akin to watching a movie rather
than taking part in one. Eating Iboga is akin to taking part in a movie that
you are watching.

Stepping it up a notch you may want to try Aminita Muscaria (a wild
mushroom). The active drug is muscarine rather than psylicybin. One fungus
eater mentioned once that it was like STP that didn’t stop.

…….Ken

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:24:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

;-))
That’s a smile btw.
So, is ibogaine still influencing my moods and the way I react to people nearly six month later? It might be, but it’s hard to tell if I’m basing any of my ideas and reactions on things I thought about while under the influence of ibogaine or if I’m merely basing them on who I am as a whole. Probably a bit of both come to think of it.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?

Is not a drug pusher group either
So take your discussion to the drug pusher group, dude.
or to the alt-ilove od

Yes, this post is OFF TOPIC, so stop right here and delete if you feel like
being a bitch about my posting it. Otherwise, have a smile.
Francis
God bless

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take
to change a light bulb?

>109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs and
to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group<

Yes, this post is OFF TOPIC, so stop right here and delete if you feel
like
being a bitch about my posting it. Otherwise, have a smile.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “mcoady” <mcoady@COMCAST.NET>
To: <NEWSROOM-L@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:15 AM
Subject: [NEWSROOM-L] Fw:How many group posters does it take to change a
light bulb?

This was posted on one of the lists I own/manage and I thought it was
relevant to any this list as well. 🙂

How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been
changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs
and how the light bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light
bulbs

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it’s “lightbulb” or “light bulb”

… another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is
“lamp”

15 know-it-alls who claim *they* were in the industry,
and that “light bulb” is perfectly correct

156 to email the participant’s ISPs complaining that they are in violation
of their “acceptable use policy”

109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs and
to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group

203 to demand that cross-posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and
lightbulb group about changing light bulbs be stopped

111 to defend the posting to this group saying that we all use light bulbs
and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this group

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to
buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique
and what brands are faulty

27 to post URL’s where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL’s were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URL’s

3 to post about links they found from the URL’s that are relevant to this
group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add “Me too”

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy

19 to quote the “Me too’s” to say “Me three”

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask “What is a “FAQ” ?”

4 to say “Didn’t we go through this already a short time ago?”

143 to say “Do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions
about
light bulbs.”

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start
it all over again….

NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.
http://www.lsoft.com

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] ultra-low-dose naltrexone to an opioid drug
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:19:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.ampainsoc.org/abstract/2004/data/854/

D. TREATMENT APPROACHES (Medical/Interventional)
D15 – Opioids in Non-Cancer Pain
Poster #854
Oxytrex™, A Novel Drug, Effectively Treats Chronic Pain Due to Osteoarthritis
Authors:    V. Chindalore, R. Craven, C. Alftine, P. Butera, K. Yu, N.
Friedmann; Anniston Medical Clinic, Anniston, AL
Single-dose studies previously demonstrated that the addition of
ultra-low-dose naltrexone to an opioid drug both enhances and prolongs analgesic efficacy.
This multi-dose study assessed the effects of two dosing regimens of Oxytrex™
(oxycodone plus ultra-low-dose naltrexone) versus oxycodone alone in chronic
pain patients. Following a 4- to 7- day baseline period, 360 patients with
moderate to severe pain (Pain Intensity (PI) > 5 out of 10) due to osteoarthritis
of the knee or hip were randomized to placebo (n=51), oxycodone QID (n=102),
Oxytrex QID (n=104) or Oxytrex BID (n=103). Patients in the 3 active treatment
groups received the same total daily dose of oxycodone: 10 mg on Days 1-3, 20
mg on Days 4-7, 30 mg in Week 2, and 40 mg in Week 3. Each Oxytrex™ tablet
contains the same amount of ultra-low-dose naltrexone. Patient baseline
characteristics and PI were similar across all groups. Treatment with Oxytrex™ BID
resulted in 39.2% mean reduction in PI from baseline. This result was
statistically significant compared to placebo (21.5%, p<0.001), oxycodone QID (24.6%,
p=0.006) and Oxytrex™ QID (26.0%, p=0.003). Oxytrex™ BID was also superior to
placebo in quality of analgesia assessments (p=0.002), global assessment of
study medication (p=0.039) and WOMAC OA Score (p=0.039). The incidence of common
opioid-related side-effects was comparable in all three active treatment
groups. The addition of ultra-low-dose naltrexone to oxycodone (i.e, Oxytrex™)
safely enhances and prolongs analgesic efficacy. In this multi-dose model of
chronic pain, treatment with Oxytrex™ BID resulted in statistically and clinically
significant reductions in PI compared to oxycodone QID at the same total daily
dose. With superior analgesia and comparable safety profiles, Oxytrex™ BID
demonstrated a better therapeutic index and a more convenient dosing schedule
than oxycodone QID for patients suffering from chronic osteoarthritic pain.

————————————————————————
Here is an excerpt from the Pain Therapeutics, Inc. web site explaining their
science:

Source: http://www.paintrials.com/our_science.html

OUR SCIENCE

It is well known that opioid painkillers produce their pain relieving effect
by inhibiting the transmission of pain signals in certain nerve cells in the
central nervous system. This inhibition of pain is achieved by inhibiting nerve
cells that have opioid receptors on their membranes, via an inhibitory
signaling pathway linked to the receptor. Scientists at Albert Einstein College of
Medicine, however, have published results suggesting that opioid painkillers
also activate an excitatory signaling pathway linked to opioid receptors,
thereby stimulating the transmission of pain. This excitatory pathway counteracts
pain inhibition and is believed to be a major cause of adverse side effects
associated with opioid use, including the development of tolerance and addiction.

We believe that the excitatory pathway of opioid receptors contributes
greatly to the adverse effects of chronic opioid use, such as tolerance, physical
dependence and addiction. After repeated administration of morphine, oxycodone
or other opioid painkillers, increasing doses of opioids are required in order
to obtain the same level of pain relief, a process known as tolerance. If
chronic opioid treatment is terminated abruptly, withdrawal symptoms rapidly
appear. Continued administration of opioids prevents the appearance of withdrawal
symptoms, at which point a patient is considered physically dependent.
Published results in rodents also show that tolerance and physical dependence can be
prevented by coadministration of ultra-low-dose naltrexone, an opioid
antagonist. We believe ultra-low-dose naltrexone blocks the excitatory pathway, but not
the inhibitory pathway, on opioid receptors. The inhibition of excitatory
signals enhances analgesia and attenuates tolerance, physical dependence and
addiction. In addition, recent pre-clinical work using animal models of addiction
suggests that very low doses of opioid antagonists decrease the pleasurable
effects and addictive potential of the opioid drugs.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] oxytrex
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:19:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.paintrials.com/oxytrex.html

OXYTREX™

For the treatment of chronic pain, such as severe osteoarthritic pain,
cancer pain or low-back pain
•   Phase III trials initiated June 2003 and March 2004
•   $1.9 billion market opportunity

Our lead candidate is a novel oral opioid called Oxytrex. Oxytrex is a small
molecule drug that is currently in a Phase III clinical program. We are
developing Oxytrex to treat severe chronic pain, such as low back, osteoarthritic
pain or cancer pain.

Previous clinical results have shown that Oxytrex provides enhanced pain
relief and prolonged pain relief. In a previously announced Phase II study with
350 patients suffering from severe osteoarthritic pain, Oxytrex reduced
patients’ pain scores by over 40% (p<0.001 vs. placebo and p=0.006 vs. oxycodone) over
a 21-day treatment period. By comparison, oxycodone reduced patients’ pain
scores by 24%. Published pre-clinical results also demonstrate that the
technology used in Oxytrex results in a lack of opioid addiction, tolerance, physical
dependence or withdrawal symptoms in animals.

In June 2003, we announced the initiation of our first Phase III efficacy
study. This randomized, double-blinded study compares the analgesic efficacy of
Oxytrex against placebo and oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up
to 700 patients with severe chronic low-back pain. In March of 2004, we
initiated a second Phase III clinical study of Oxytrex. This randomized,
double-blinded study will compare the analgesic efficacy of Oxytrex against placebo and
oxycodone over a three-month treatment period in up to 700 patients with
severe chronic osteoarthritic pain.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:15:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL,
Ok, thanks Francis, I appreciate this post a lot.
I didn’t know that the Big Bopper and Sid had died on the same date. (On the Big Bopper, I remember a great little novel called No Fade Away, I think based on either a Dylan or a Dead song- hate to admit I can’t remember which as it’s a pretty famous song, right?- that I highly recommend picking up if you see it anywhere. I don’t know if it’s still in print even, but it was out in the 80s.)
I didn’t know all this other stuff either, so again, thanks kindly.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

Hi  Preston !!
The 3 february of 1959

Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper. This date becomes known
as ” the day, the Music died ”
but the same day died the Italian singer Fred Buscaglione . That was one my
favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce Vita Chianti with ice in
summer !!. That was something , man.

You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february 316 died Saint Blaise. He
is believed to intercede for throat illness.

Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia, died
the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind reading and she is the
patron Saint of Chester.
Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to know, that , ….read my
lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the 3 february….  1875
!!!

That’all folks
Francis
God bless
I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance, I thought it’s meams
something to you

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

those of us who like the Sex Pistols?
Those of us who might need a reminder that drugs can be dangerous?
Why are you insisting on being such a blue meanie?
(Maybe I shoulda clipped this, but I posted it for the Sid “news” and
forgot
there was more besides the Neil Young lyrics too. Please excuse me, those
of
you who just can’t be cheerful or must have something shitty to say, just
to
let me and the rest of us too know you have “verve” or “a spine” or are
simply feeling “bitchy” or … no, I will snip that one, no need to go
there.)

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

> So ??!
> Who cares ?
> —– Original Message —– > From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:53 AM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
> Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
>
>
>>
>> —– Original Message —– >> From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
>> To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:10 AM
>> Subject: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies >> of
> drug
>> overdose – OT 2 some
>>
>>
>> >
>> > As I was reading this thread, this song was running thru my mind.
>> >
>> > NEIL YOUNG – Needle And The Damage Done
>> >
>> > I caught you knockin’
>> > at my cellar door
>> > I love you, baby,
>> > can I have some more
>> > Ooh, ooh, the damage done.
>> >
>> > I hit the city and
>> > I lost my band
>> > I watched the needle
>> > take another man
>> > Gone, gone, the damage done.
>> >
>> > I sing the song
>> > because I love the man
>> > I know that some
>> > of you don’t understand
>> > Milk-blood
>> > to keep from running out.
>> >
>> > I’ve seen the needle
>> > and the damage done
>> > A little part of it in everyone
>> > But every junkie’s
>> > like a settin’ sun.
>> >
>> > At 12:55 AM 2/3/05, Preston Peet wrote:
>> >>because dear Steven, Feb. 3 is the day after Sid died, in other
words,
>> >>it’s been 25 years, an annivercary of sorts.
>> >>He died of a drug overdose so it’s on topic.
>> >>
>> >>Peace and love,
>> >>Preston Peet the moderator
>> >>
>> >>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
>> >>often
>> >>mistaken for madness”
>> >>Richard Davenport-Hines
>> >>
>> >>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>> >>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>> >>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>> >>Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
>> >>Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
>> >>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>> >>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>> >>Columnist New York Waste
>> >>Etc.
>> >>
>> >>—– Original Message —– From: Steven M. Cooper
>> >>To: drugwar@mindvox.com
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:10 PM
>> >>Subject: RE: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
>> >>
>> >>WTF is this posted for?  The dateline on the story is 25 years old,
for
>> >>chrissakes!  This is not news, this is recycled BS.
>> >>
>> >>There has been a lot of garbage posts to drugwar lately – and WAY >> >>too
> much
>> >>off topic crap.  If people want to carry on OT personal
conversations,
> why
>> >>not do it by private e-mail, eh?
>> >>—–Original Message—–
>> >>From: Max Robinson [mailto:maddmaxx46323@comcast.net]
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:58 PM
>> >>Cc: [DrugWar]
>> >>Subject: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
>> >>
>>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,12269,1404116,00.html
>> >>
>> >>Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose
>> >>By a Staff Reporter
>> >>Saturday February 3, 1979
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >
>
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>>
>> >  [           Moderated by: Preston Peet |
>> > .drugwar.com           ]
>> >  |          -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=-
>> > |
>> >  |             To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
>> > |
>> >  [   DrugWar List in Digest Format:
>> > ugwar-digest-subscribe@mindvox.com   ]
>> >
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 2, 2005 at 10:03:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>; <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

snip..

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that
makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping.
She
disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m
going
to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want
as
much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and commune
with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that
condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very
much
enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going out
in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the
dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the
solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

Eating mushrooms (psilocybe cubensis) is akin to watching a movie rather
than taking part in one. Eating Iboga is akin to taking part in a movie that
you are watching.

Stepping it up a notch you may want to try Aminita Muscaria (a wild
mushroom). The active drug is muscarine rather than psylicybin. One fungus
eater mentioned once that it was like STP that didn’t stop.

…….Ken

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence /sweden /sound
Date: February 3, 2005 at 1:08:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thank you randy
on smack i only liked to play jazz bebop piano, conjuring birds ghost. jazz and junk, a white boy´s dream.
post ibogaine i´m much more into electronics again. its more spacy and psychedelic. ibogain has made sounds alive again. the whole aesthetics of music is so drug-related to me. the good thing is i don´t need to be trippin anymore to dig those effects. also everyday noises are cool, like cars passing by, the sound of the computerkeyboard while typing, whatever. but whats the sound of listening?

Am 03.02.2005 um 10:05 schrieb BiscuitBoy714@aol.com:

Ekki, dude you fit right in here. My mind exploded in images when I read your post about the Swedish mushroom god at a rave. I have got to see that dude. When you started talking about tweaking keyboard sounds by panning and changing the bass lines as the room tipped over I could hear a mini Moog playing low octave bass lines and came up with some licks of my own. A good saw tooth sound with a lot of grit playing off beat from the rhythm track. 4 months after Ibogaine and my head is still so much more alive now. There is definitely a fungus amungus.        Randy

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 12:53:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry to be a smartass again but the first cheese factory was founded 1815 not 1875, Francis!

george trakl, great austrian poet, drug addict and pharmacist was born feb 3 1887. he later killed himself with an overdose of coke iv during WWI
i really like his poems, here is a translation of one of them. isn´t it iboganistic?

De Profundis

There is a stubble field on which a black rain falls.
There is a tree which, brown, stands lonely here.
There is a hissing wind which haunts deserted huts—
How sad this evening.

Past the village pond
The gentle orphan still gathers scanty ears of corn.
Golden and round her eyes are gazing in the dusk
And her lap awaits the heavenly bridegroom.

Returning home
Shepherds found the sweet body
Decayed in the bramble bush.

A shade I am remote from sombre hamlets.
The silence of God
I drank from the woodland well.

On my forehead cold metal forms.
Spiders look for my heart.
There is a light that fails in my mouth.

At night I found myself upon a heath,
Thick with garbage and the dust of stars.
In the hazel copse
Crystal angels have sounded once more.

Translated by Jurek Kirakowski

Anonymous submission.

Georg Trakl

Am 03.02.2005 um 18:21 schrieb The Garden:

Hi  Preston !!
The 3 february of 1959

Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper. This date becomes known
as ” the day, the Music died ”
but the same day died the Italian singer Fred Buscaglione . That was one my
favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce Vita Chianti with ice in
summer !!. That was something , man.

You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february 316 died Saint Blaise. He
is believed to intercede for throat illness.

Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia, died
the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind reading and she is the
patron Saint of Chester.
Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to know, that , ….read my
lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the 3 february….  1875
!!!

That’all folks
Francis
God bless
I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance, I thought it’s meams
something to you

From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] I don’t care what you say about Preston, he’s cool
Date: February 3, 2005 at 12:47:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

How many group posters does it take to change a
light bulb?

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the
light bulb has been
changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light
bulbs
and how the light bulb could have been changed
differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light
bulbs

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts
about changing light
bulbs

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it’s “lightbulb” or “light
bulb”

… another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that
the proper term is
“lamp”

15 know-it-alls who claim *they* were in the
industry,
and that “light bulb” is perfectly correct

156 to email the participant’s ISPs complaining that
they are in
violation
of their “acceptable use policy”

109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs
and
to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group

203 to demand that cross-posting to hardware forum,
off-topic forum,
and
lightbulb group about changing light bulbs be
stopped

111 to defend the posting to this group saying that
we all use light
bulbs
and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this group

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs
is superior, where
to
buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work
best for this
technique
and what brands are faulty

27 to post URL’s where one can see examples of
different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL’s were posted incorrectly
and then post the
corrected URL’s

3 to post about links they found from the URL’s that
are relevant to
this
group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their
entirety including
all
headers and signatures, and add “Me too”

12 to post to the group that they will no longer
post because they
cannot
handle the light bulb controversy

19 to quote the “Me too’s” to say “Me three”

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask “What is a “FAQ” ?”

4 to say “Didn’t we go through this already a short
time ago?”

143 to say “Do a Google search on light bulbs before
posting
questions
about
light bulbs.”

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6
months from now and
start
it all over again….

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?
Date: February 3, 2005 at 12:43:28 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is not a drug pusher group either
So take your discussion to the drug pusher group, dude.
or to the alt-ilove od

Yes, this post is OFF TOPIC, so stop right here and delete if you feel like
being a bitch about my posting it. Otherwise, have a smile.
Francis
God bless

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take
to change a light bulb?

109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs and
to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group<

Yes, this post is OFF TOPIC, so stop right here and delete if you feel
like
being a bitch about my posting it. Otherwise, have a smile.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: “mcoady” <mcoady@COMCAST.NET>
To: <NEWSROOM-L@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:15 AM
Subject: [NEWSROOM-L] Fw:How many group posters does it take to change a
light bulb?

This was posted on one of the lists I own/manage and I thought it was
relevant to any this list as well. 🙂

How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been
changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs
and how the light bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light
bulbs

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it’s “lightbulb” or “light bulb”

… another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is
“lamp”

15 know-it-alls who claim *they* were in the industry,
and that “light bulb” is perfectly correct

156 to email the participant’s ISPs complaining that they are in violation
of their “acceptable use policy”

109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs and
to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group

203 to demand that cross-posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and
lightbulb group about changing light bulbs be stopped

111 to defend the posting to this group saying that we all use light bulbs
and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this group

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to
buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique
and what brands are faulty

27 to post URL’s where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL’s were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URL’s

3 to post about links they found from the URL’s that are relevant to this
group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add “Me too”

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy

19 to quote the “Me too’s” to say “Me three”

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask “What is a “FAQ” ?”

4 to say “Didn’t we go through this already a short time ago?”

143 to say “Do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions
about
light bulbs.”

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start
it all over again….

NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.
http://www.lsoft.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 12:28:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Francis How are You??
Write Soon please.
-J

— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi  Preston !!
The 3 february of 1959

Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper.
This date becomes known
as ” the day, the Music died ”
but the same day died the Italian singer Fred
Buscaglione . That was one my
favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce
Vita Chianti with ice in
summer !!. That was something , man.

You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february
316 died Saint Blaise. He
is believed to intercede for throat illness.

Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King
Wulfhere of Mercia, died
the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind
reading and she is the
patron Saint of Chester.
Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to
know, that , ….read my
lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the
3 february….  1875
!!!

That’all folks
Francis
God bless
I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance,
I thought it’s meams
something to you

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You,
Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

those of us who like the Sex Pistols?
Those of us who might need a reminder that drugs
can be dangerous?
Why are you insisting on being such a blue meanie?
(Maybe I shoulda clipped this, but I posted it for
the Sid “news” and
forgot
there was more besides the Neil Young lyrics too.
Please excuse me, those
of
you who just can’t be cheerful or must have
something shitty to say, just
to
let me and the rest of us too know you have
“verve” or “a spine” or are
simply feeling “bitchy” or … no, I will snip
that one, no need to go
there.)

Peace and love,

(Don’t let me get in the way of any territorial
pissings)

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] OT Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 12:21:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi  Preston !!
The 3 february of 1959

Died Buddy Holly, Richie Vallens,and the Big Bopper. This date becomes known
as ” the day, the Music died ”
but the same day died the Italian singer Fred Buscaglione . That was one my
favorite, all the joy of the fifthy’ s, la Dolce Vita Chianti with ice in
summer !!. That was something , man.

You will be happy to know that, the 3 of february 316 died Saint Blaise. He
is believed to intercede for throat illness.

Weburgh also known as Werbuga , daughter of King Wulfhere of Mercia, died
the 3 february 699.She was a nun gifted in mind reading and she is the
patron Saint of Chester.
Now, for the cheese lovers , you will be happy to know, that , ….read my
lip : the first swiss cheese factory was founded the 3 february….  1875
!!!

That’all folks
Francis
God bless
I forgot today I saved $ 150 on my Geiko insurance, I thought it’s meams
something to you

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

those of us who like the Sex Pistols?
Those of us who might need a reminder that drugs can be dangerous?
Why are you insisting on being such a blue meanie?
(Maybe I shoulda clipped this, but I posted it for the Sid “news” and
forgot
there was more besides the Neil Young lyrics too. Please excuse me, those
of
you who just can’t be cheerful or must have something shitty to say, just
to
let me and the rest of us too know you have “verve” or “a spine” or are
simply feeling “bitchy” or … no, I will snip that one, no need to go
there.)

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

So ??!
Who cares ?
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:53 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:10 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of
drug
overdose – OT 2 some

As I was reading this thread, this song was running thru my mind.

NEIL YOUNG – Needle And The Damage Done

I caught you knockin’
at my cellar door
I love you, baby,
can I have some more
Ooh, ooh, the damage done.

I hit the city and
I lost my band
I watched the needle
take another man
Gone, gone, the damage done.

I sing the song
because I love the man
I know that some
of you don’t understand
Milk-blood
to keep from running out.

I’ve seen the needle
and the damage done
A little part of it in everyone
But every junkie’s
like a settin’ sun.

At 12:55 AM 2/3/05, Preston Peet wrote:
because dear Steven, Feb. 3 is the day after Sid died, in other
words,
it’s been 25 years, an annivercary of sorts.
He died of a drug overdose so it’s on topic.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet the moderator

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Steven M. Cooper
To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

WTF is this posted for?  The dateline on the story is 25 years old,
for
chrissakes!  This is not news, this is recycled BS.

There has been a lot of garbage posts to drugwar lately – and WAY too
much
off topic crap.  If people want to carry on OT personal
conversations,
why
not do it by private e-mail, eh?
—–Original Message—–
From: Max Robinson [mailto:maddmaxx46323@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:58 PM
Cc: [DrugWar]
Subject: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,12269,1404116,00.html

Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose
By a Staff Reporter
Saturday February 3, 1979
<snip>

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 3, 2005 at 11:47:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Actually, I like to eat shrooms and can grow them, it’s not hard at all.  I know of many people who like to eat small amounts, like a gram or two, and chill.  I even know of people who take smaller amounts before bedtime to have more colorful dreams.  I wouldn’t trip everyday, though because you will build up tolerance quickly.  However, every two or three days is great and eventually she may start taking more as she gets used to it.  For under a hundred dollars, you can grow pounds, so they are very cheap.  It isn’t that hard at all and I’d suggest checking out http://www.mycotopia.net/site/news.php for a very cool community of shroomers always willing to help anyone learn, plus they don’t allow flaming and crap.  After using them for awhile or by taking huge doses, either way, you will benefit in the way you see things and it helps you want the best for yourself, or at least it does for me.  For example, When I first started using heroin and wasn’t hardcore addicted, but was shooting it pretty frequently(every other day or so), I took some mushrooms.  I started feeling really sad, and then I was looking at my tracks and my life and I went through the whole house getting rid of all my heroin paraphenalia.  I threw it all out and then I started feeling better.  I even quit for two weeks, til an aquaintance talked me into using again, which wasn’t that hard cause I still felt like I could quit anytime.  Besides he’d give me free dope and money for a ride to get it, how could I refuse?  Anyways, I started getting off track, but the mushrooms are good things that can help in many ways, so I think mushroom maintenance, in some form, would be great.
Peace

Sara Glatt <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Hi Preston,

Naturally it will not work, your body will get use to it,
Like we get use to pot, and coffee and other things…
There is nothing like trying and knowing for yourself.
V could enjoy it for a while then stop when she feels it doesn’t do the
trick any longer, after waiting few weeks it will do the trick again.

The good thing about mushroom is, you can grow them so easily, make tea
With mint and ginseng and other herbs and freeze it, that can be kept for
few months.

“always look at the bright side of life!”

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 2 februari 2005 20:43
Aan: drugwar@mindvox.com; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

HI all,
So V was with some friends last night after a party we went to for her
job (employees’ x-max party, a late one), and someone turned her on to snall

amount of shrooms, which she immediately proceeded to eat. She really,
really enjoys those a lot, so had a good time hanging out tripping very
mildly and talking about this, that and the other. She mentioned to me this
morning that she enjoys the feeling so much, and feels so much more balanced

when very, very lightly feeling shrooms-not full on tripping, just that bare

inkling of a buzz, but still tripping- that she feels she could put herself
on mushroom maintenance and be happier. LOL, I couldn’t believe my ears, but

what the hell. If she feels she’d be happier slightly tripping all the time,

who am I to tell her she’s wrong or bad for thinking so? Especially when she

glow to brightly when on shrooms?
;-)))

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that
makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping. She

disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m going

to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want as
much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and commune
with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that
condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very much
enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going out
in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the
dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the
solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,

Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT! or is it?) Fw:How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?
Date: February 3, 2005 at 11:36:45 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs and
to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group<

Yes, this post is OFF TOPIC, so stop right here and delete if you feel like being a bitch about my posting it. Otherwise, have a smile.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “mcoady” <mcoady@COMCAST.NET>
To: <NEWSROOM-L@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:15 AM
Subject: [NEWSROOM-L] Fw:How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?

This was posted on one of the lists I own/manage and I thought it was relevant to any this list as well. 🙂

How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs
and how the light bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it’s “lightbulb” or “light bulb”

… another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is “lamp”

15 know-it-alls who claim *they* were in the industry,
and that “light bulb” is perfectly correct

156 to email the participant’s ISPs complaining that they are in violation
of their “acceptable use policy”

109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs and
to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group

203 to demand that cross-posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and
lightbulb group about changing light bulbs be stopped

111 to defend the posting to this group saying that we all use light bulbs
and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this group

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique
and what brands are faulty

27 to post URL’s where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL’s were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URL’s

3 to post about links they found from the URL’s that are relevant to this
group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add “Me too”

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy

19 to quote the “Me too’s” to say “Me three”

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask “What is a “FAQ” ?”

4 to say “Didn’t we go through this already a short time ago?”

143 to say “Do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about
light bulbs.”

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start
it all over again….

NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.   http://www.lsoft.com

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 11:29:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

those of us who like the Sex Pistols?
Those of us who might need a reminder that drugs can be dangerous?
Why are you insisting on being such a blue meanie?
(Maybe I shoulda clipped this, but I posted it for the Sid “news” and forgot there was more besides the Neil Young lyrics too. Please excuse me, those of you who just can’t be cheerful or must have something shitty to say, just to let me and the rest of us too know you have “verve” or “a spine” or are simply feeling “bitchy” or … no, I will snip that one, no need to go there.)

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

So ??!
Who cares ?
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:53 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

—– Original Message —– From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:10 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of
drug
overdose – OT 2 some

>
> As I was reading this thread, this song was running thru my mind.
>
> NEIL YOUNG – Needle And The Damage Done
>
> I caught you knockin’
> at my cellar door
> I love you, baby,
> can I have some more
> Ooh, ooh, the damage done.
>
> I hit the city and
> I lost my band
> I watched the needle
> take another man
> Gone, gone, the damage done.
>
> I sing the song
> because I love the man
> I know that some
> of you don’t understand
> Milk-blood
> to keep from running out.
>
> I’ve seen the needle
> and the damage done
> A little part of it in everyone
> But every junkie’s
> like a settin’ sun.
>
> At 12:55 AM 2/3/05, Preston Peet wrote:
>>because dear Steven, Feb. 3 is the day after Sid died, in other words,
>>it’s been 25 years, an annivercary of sorts.
>>He died of a drug overdose so it’s on topic.
>>
>>Peace and love,
>>Preston Peet the moderator
>>
>>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is >>often
>>mistaken for madness”
>>Richard Davenport-Hines
>>
>>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>>Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
>>Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
>>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>>Columnist New York Waste
>>Etc.
>>
>>—– Original Message —– From: Steven M. Cooper
>>To: drugwar@mindvox.com
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:10 PM
>>Subject: RE: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
>>
>>WTF is this posted for?  The dateline on the story is 25 years old, for
>>chrissakes!  This is not news, this is recycled BS.
>>
>>There has been a lot of garbage posts to drugwar lately – and WAY too
much
>>off topic crap.  If people want to carry on OT personal conversations,
why
>>not do it by private e-mail, eh?
>>—–Original Message—–
>>From: Max Robinson [mailto:maddmaxx46323@comcast.net]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:58 PM
>>Cc: [DrugWar]
>>Subject: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
>>
>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,12269,1404116,00.html
>>
>>Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose
>>By a Staff Reporter
>>Saturday February 3, 1979
> <snip>
>
>
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> .drugwar.com           ]
>  |          -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=-
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>  |             To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome?? Electrical Shocks?!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 11:10:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“The Mushroom God, yeah, he’s going to manifest one
day,”

Winter Solstice 2012…assuming everyone agrees when
Zero starts….
…Maybe.
Cheers,
Jason

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 10:59:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So ??!
Who cares ?
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:53 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid
Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:10 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of
drug
overdose – OT 2 some

As I was reading this thread, this song was running thru my mind.

NEIL YOUNG – Needle And The Damage Done

I caught you knockin’
at my cellar door
I love you, baby,
can I have some more
Ooh, ooh, the damage done.

I hit the city and
I lost my band
I watched the needle
take another man
Gone, gone, the damage done.

I sing the song
because I love the man
I know that some
of you don’t understand
Milk-blood
to keep from running out.

I’ve seen the needle
and the damage done
A little part of it in everyone
But every junkie’s
like a settin’ sun.

At 12:55 AM 2/3/05, Preston Peet wrote:
because dear Steven, Feb. 3 is the day after Sid died, in other words,
it’s been 25 years, an annivercary of sorts.
He died of a drug overdose so it’s on topic.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet the moderator

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Steven M. Cooper
To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

WTF is this posted for?  The dateline on the story is 25 years old, for
chrissakes!  This is not news, this is recycled BS.

There has been a lot of garbage posts to drugwar lately – and WAY too
much
off topic crap.  If people want to carry on OT personal conversations,
why
not do it by private e-mail, eh?
—–Original Message—–
From: Max Robinson [mailto:maddmaxx46323@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:58 PM
Cc: [DrugWar]
Subject: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,12269,1404116,00.html

Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose
By a Staff Reporter
Saturday February 3, 1979
<snip>

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.drugwar.com           ]
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some
Date: February 3, 2005 at 10:53:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:10 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Thank You, Preston Re: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

As I was reading this thread, this song was running thru my mind.

NEIL YOUNG – Needle And The Damage Done

I caught you knockin’
at my cellar door
I love you, baby,
can I have some more
Ooh, ooh, the damage done.

I hit the city and
I lost my band
I watched the needle
take another man
Gone, gone, the damage done.

I sing the song
because I love the man
I know that some
of you don’t understand
Milk-blood
to keep from running out.

I’ve seen the needle
and the damage done
A little part of it in everyone
But every junkie’s
like a settin’ sun.

At 12:55 AM 2/3/05, Preston Peet wrote:
because dear Steven, Feb. 3 is the day after Sid died, in other words, it’s been 25 years, an annivercary of sorts.
He died of a drug overdose so it’s on topic.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet the moderator

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: Steven M. Cooper
To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

WTF is this posted for?  The dateline on the story is 25 years old, for chrissakes!  This is not news, this is recycled BS.

There has been a lot of garbage posts to drugwar lately – and WAY too much off topic crap.  If people want to carry on OT personal conversations, why not do it by private e-mail, eh?
—–Original Message—–
From: Max Robinson [mailto:maddmaxx46323@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:58 PM
Cc: [DrugWar]
Subject: [DrugWar] Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose – OT 2 some

http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,12269,1404116,00.html

Sid Vicious dies of drug overdose
By a Staff Reporter
Saturday February 3, 1979
<snip>

<]=———————————————————————–=[>
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome?? Electrical Shocks?!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 6:01:47 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: 03 February 2005 08:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome?? Electrical Shocks?!

Julie, I quit taking Paxil for a month and a half before my Ibo treatment, and it whacked me out pretty good. It screwed up my Methadone dosage something awful. I couldn’t get enough to feel right. Of course I never did my Methadone right, but this was different. I couldn’t sleep right, I’d fall asleep OK but would wake up in an hour or two in a foul mood, and generally pissy. I bet you can read my posts from then and see the mood change. My ex-wife charged up a great big phone bill talking to me when she tried to quit taking Paxil. She was frantic (she was always frantic, LOL) and panicking badly. She stayed in that state for two weeks until she decided to go back on it. It helps her, but that withdrawal is not fun. I’m glad I don’t feel like I need it anymore. As for those shocks you are talking about I think I experienced something similar. I would get these weird rushes when I would turn my head or move fast. It’s hard to describe but it was like I heard a sound in my head and everything kind of shuttered around me. It sucked out loud. I hope this helps. Stay tough and come to NYC for the conference. It won’t suck. I bet it’s a gas man. I know we will all learn something.         Randy

Yeah, I think most of these drugs are brought to the market just for short term usage, but then people get on them for years. There’s always payback when you fuck around with the body’s chemistry too long with the same stuff. With mushrooms I like the cyanescens ones from Hawaii but you can’t get them in the uk so easily, now they’re trying to restrict them even more so they’re illegal if dried. The Mushroom God, yeah, he’s going to manifest one day, then things will be wild.
Nick

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence /sweden
Date: February 3, 2005 at 4:05:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki, dude you fit right in here. My mind exploded in images when I read your post about the Swedish mushroom god at a rave. I have got to see that dude. When you started talking about tweaking keyboard sounds by panning and changing the bass lines as the room tipped over I could hear a mini Moog playing low octave bass lines and came up with some licks of my own. A good saw tooth sound with a lot of grit playing off beat from the rhythm track. 4 months after Ibogaine and my head is still so much more alive now. There is definitely a fungus amungus.        Randy

From: “Warren Bezuidenhout” <warren@memeworx.co.za>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Please remove from mailing list A.S.A.P
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:47:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please take me off your mailing list immediately.

Many thanks
Warren
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:34:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/2/2005 4:15:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
“always look at the bright side of life!”

Sara
I always say enjoy the sunshine and don’t bitch about the glare        Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome?? Electrical Shocks?!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 3:30:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Julie, I quit taking Paxil for a month and a half before my Ibo treatment, and it whacked me out pretty good. It screwed up my Methadone dosage something awful. I couldn’t get enough to feel right. Of course I never did my Methadone right, but this was different. I couldn’t sleep right, I’d fall asleep OK but would wake up in an hour or two in a foul mood, and generally pissy. I bet you can read my posts from then and see the mood change. My ex-wife charged up a great big phone bill talking to me when she tried to quit taking Paxil. She was frantic (she was always frantic, LOL) and panicking badly. She stayed in that state for two weeks until she decided to go back on it. It helps her, but that withdrawal is not fun. I’m glad I don’t feel like I need it anymore. As for those shocks you are talking about I think I experienced something similar. I would get these weird rushes when I would turn my head or move fast. It’s hard to describe but it was like I heard a sound in my head and everything kind of shuttered around me. It sucked out loud. I hope this helps. Stay tough and come to NYC for the conference. It won’t suck. I bet it’s a gas man. I know we will all learn something.         Randy

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: Peekaboo…Reading You!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:08:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry again. yeah its nice

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: Peekaboo…Reading You!
Date: February 3, 2005 at 2:04:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

for the more mathematical/rational oriented…

the outcome is always a multiple of 9. the symbol that will appear is always the one shown on
9,18,27…..81.
(99-18=81…..90-9=81, 89-17=72….80-8=72 etc.)

sorry to spoil the fun. its too simple.

Am 03.02.2005 um 03:13 schrieb tomo7:

For the more spychic/spiritual oriented…

Can mindvox read our minds too?

So why does this work?

Spooky to me.

http://www.dslextreme.com/users/exstatica/psychic.swf

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT: Peekaboo…Reading You!
Date: February 2, 2005 at 9:46:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s a nice applet !!
It’s easy, but I can’t reveal the secret 🙁   If you want how can do a reading on you. Give me your age. that all I need.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: tomo7
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Peekaboo…Reading You!

For the more spychic/spiritual oriented…

Can mindvox read our minds too?

So why does this work?

Spooky to me.

http://www.dslextreme.com/users/exstatica/psychic.swf

From: “tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT: Peekaboo…Reading You!
Date: February 2, 2005 at 9:13:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

For the more spychic/spiritual oriented…

Can mindvox read our minds too?

So why does this work?

Spooky to me.

http://www.dslextreme.com/users/exstatica/psychic.swf

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT:Teen Claims Antidepressant Led to Murder
Date: February 2, 2005 at 8:26:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Tom !!

Here an exerpt of an aticle by David Healy , a psychiatrist of the
University of Wales who denounced the pharmaceutical companies and the lack
of evidence ofthe  effectiveness of most psychopharmacological so called  ”
discoveries “. In this long article he give a short history of Psichiatry
and it’s  link with big business. This cost him a job with the unniversity
of Toronto Later he wins several millions dollars in  settlement

http://www.academyanalyticarts.org/healy.htm

Psychopharmacology & the Government of the Self

by David Healy

<SNIP>

Arguably, the term “Evidence Biased Medicine” would be more appropriate.
Clinical trials in psychiatry have never showed that anything worked.
Penicillin eradicated a major psychiatric disease without any clinical trial
to show that it worked.  Chlorpromazine and the antidepressants were all
discovered without clinical trials.  You don’t need a trial to show
something works.  Haloperidol and other agents worked for delirium and no
one ever thought to do a clinical trial to support this.  Anaesthetics work
without trials to show the point.  Analgesics work and clinical trials
aren’t needed to show this.  Clinical trials nearly got in the way of us
getting fluoxetine and sertraline.

What clinical trials demonstrate are treatment effects.  In some cases,
these effects are minimal.  One may have to strain with the eye of faith to
detect the treatment effect.

God bless

Francis

In 50 years the number of in-patient in England had triple. What a success
!! this researcher had proven behind doubt that, everyday in the States, one
patient using the drug  prozac commit suicide. Not talking about the
relation between  Ritalin, Zoloft ect and murders !!.  Most of the mass
murders commited by teens in theisr school where under the influence of
anti-depressant ( Colombine ect… )

Christopher Pittman, now 15, is being tried as an adult for two counts of
murder in the November 2001 slayings of Joe and Joy Pittman with a
pump-action shotgun. Their house was set ablaze and the youth, then 12,
drove off in the family car.

Defense attorney Andy Vickery said Monday that Zoloft was to blame.

“This is a case about one drug that has taken three lives. When you hear the
case, you will have the power and opportunity to give one back,” he said. “A
shy, decent boy was acting under the influence of a mind-altering drug.”

Prosecutors contend Pittman shot his grandparents because they disciplined
him for fighting on a school bus.

“This is not a case about Zoloft. This is not a case about Pfizer,”
prosecutor Barney Giese told the jury in opening statements. “This is a case
about Chris Pittman.”

Pittman, who had threatened suicide, was put on Zoloft three weeks before
the slayings, and his dose was doubled just two days earlier.

In October, the Food and Drug Administration (news
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_us/zoloft_defense/14165
874/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Food%2
0and%20Drug%20Administration%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw>  – web sites
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_us/zoloft_defense/14165
874/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Food%20and%20Drug%20
Administration> ) ordered Zoloft and other antidepressants to carry “black
box” warnings – the government’s strongest warning short of a ban – about
increasing the risk of suicidal behavior in children.

Pfizer has vigorously fought cases claiming antidepressants cause violent or
suicidal behavior.

Pittman could be sentenced to 30 years to life in prison if convicted.

See Photos:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=3&u=/ap/20050201/ap_on
_re_us/zoloft_defense

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence /sweden/toronto
Date: February 2, 2005 at 8:09:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki,

I wish I could stumble across 300g of mushrooms.  They
are just so much fun.  They’re pretty hard to get here
in Toronto.  In Vancouver, though, they pretty much
grow wild, due to the temperate, humid climate.

You are right about picking up nice vibes from people
on MDMA while on shrooms…I used to love to do
hippie-flips when I went to raves.  shrooms and E
together are, well, amazing.

Personally, I believe psychedelics are very special,
and should only be used in a spiritual context.
‘Spiritual’ may mean different things to different
people, but I’m sure everyone can understand what I
mean.  Raves used to be my ‘church’; now I gravitate
more to outdoor locations/gatherings/celebrations with
people I love when I trip.

Julie’s $.02

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence /sweden
Date: February 2, 2005 at 7:10:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i went to southern sweden autum ’95 to collect mushrooms. we only looked on golf courses. the turf is short and they use a lot of fertilizer. you´ll find a lot of golf courses in southern sweden. two friends and i had rented a van and drove from town to town, asking at grocery stores and fuel stations for the nearest golf course. we checked for 4 days without much success. then we found the right spot. the collecting was done at night in order not to get hit by golfballs or being asked distressing questions. at home it turned out to be 300g of dried psylos.

we took them whenever we went out dancing, that is all the time. strobe light, techno and shrooms work very well together. it is nice to take psychedelics when everyone else is on mdma. you pick up the friendly vibes. but there was always the same wild swedish shroomghost appearing. i never met him on other mushrooms. he was both terrible and beautiful, serious and seemed to control all movements while dancing. he was roaring and could be seen in the stroboscopic icy fog.

we also threw parties, made tea for everybody and played life with drummachines and synthies. you change the bassline and the whole room tips over. you play around with echo and panning and see the sounds moving in the air like spirits. it was so beautiful. everybody was trippin and had tears in their eyes. we called ourselves 100records. our career just started when we dicovered freebase. then everything went south like we´ve been attacked by alien lasers and police broke in our studio looking for vietnamese mafia but thats another story.

we went to sweden again in 96 , but we didn´t find any mushrooms exept maybe 5 that didn´t turn. i don´t know if it was the weather or if they found out and poisened the turf. now i tell you all a big secret: the place in sweden is called kävlinge. http://www.kavlingegk.com/
maybe someone feels like going there next september and check if there are some fungus left.

nowadays i think mushrooms all the time is really exhausting for your brain. also it gets used to strong stimuli so that you loose contact with the more subtle language of mind. lsd and shrooms are really great but i haven´t used any in this millenium and i don´t see a reason why i should. when i droped acid the first time i forgot my name. then i recalled memories and felt like looking on someone elses life. i felt i could have been anybody.  who is this who sits here typing emails. is this me? who is reading this right now? what is i? is your i different then mine? an old joke just like this. i still wonder.

Am 02.02.2005 um 20:43 schrieb Preston Peet:

Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.

same here. all the best ekki

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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?
Date: February 2, 2005 at 4:50:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow, that’s so cool.
I would love to see a documentary following these people as they get their
lives together, they’ll be totally different!! Specially if it’s nice pure
heroin.  Good stuff. I remember Liverpool did this a while ago…. not sure
if it’s still going but I remember one woman stopped prostituting and
started doing what she wanted, she looked great too. And they won’t have to
do crime.
I hope this attempt makes a difference, instead of fading away like the
Liverpool experiment seems to have….
Kirk

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 1 February 2005 3:46 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?

snip from the article below:

“Sometimes you need something just to relax and get your mind together,
instead of always being in a state of panic. That’s what’s killing everyone
down here,” she said, pointing to the throngs of bedraggled souls shuffling
along East Hastings Street. Like Ms. Woelke, they must hit the pavement
every day to raise enough cash for their drugs. Most steal. Many women work
as prostitutes.

“They have to do things they wouldn’t normally do.”

This is exactly what some of Canada’s top addiction experts want to find
out when they begin the first heroin prescription trial in North America.

If heroin addicts are freed of their daily chase for drugs, if it is given
to them three times a day like medicine, can they change their lives for
the better?<

This woman has it nailed with her comment about the panic being what’s
killinng all her addict frieds and acquaintances on the streets.
There’s more below. Too awesome. This is what we should be doing, ALONG with

offering addicts ibogaine and methadone and whatever else it may take to get

them to a point where THEY, the ADDICTS- not Nick, or the Court, or Preston
Peet, or the police and judges, or Bill W., or the Bwiti, or whomever it is-

feel they are most happy. Not “they’re a drag,” not they just be integrated
into society along with everyone else, not they must be forced into
participating in life, none of that is a good criteria for action or even
worthy goals IN MY OPINION. The main goals in my mind are to enable each and

every person to live happily as possible to the extent they are not hurting
others while making themselves happy, to reduce as many possible harms to
the addict and the rest of society too without forcing anyone into anything
against their will.
I’m pretty sure that the authorities involved in this effort will notice

a drop in crime on the part of the participant, and even probably a climb in

things like employemnnt and other markers like this.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,

Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:20 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?

Newshawk: CMAP http://www.mapinc.org/cmap
Pubdate: Mon, 31 Jan 2005
Source: Globe and Mail (Canada)
Page: A1 – Front Page
Copyright: 2005, The Globe and Mail Company
Contact: letters@globeandmail.ca
Website: http://www.globeandmail.ca/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/168
Author: Jane Armstrong
Cited: Centre for Addiction and Mental Health http://www.camh.net/
Cited: Canadian Institutes of Health Research http://www.cihr-irsc.gc.ca/
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/heroin.htm (Heroin)
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?136 (Methadone)
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/topics/Downtown+Eastside

IS FREE HEROIN JUST A QUICK FIX?

VANCOUVER — On a warm, rainy Saturday morning, Debbie Woelke stops
pushing her shopping cart long enough to discuss the pros and cons of a
plan to give free heroin to drug addicts in Canada’s poorest
neighbourhood.

The heroin trial is all the talk of Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside and Ms.
Woelke, 48, thinks it’s a good idea. She might even apply, herself. “They
should have done this a long time ago,” she said leaning on her cart,
which contains all her worldly belongings — not groceries.

Like other addicts, Ms. Woelke lives in a bleak rented room in a
residential hotel. Far better to be outside in the rain, even if it means
wheeling around your clothes all day.

“Sometimes you need something just to relax and get your mind together,
instead of always being in a state of panic. That’s what’s killing
everyone down here,” she said, pointing to the throngs of bedraggled souls

shuffling along East Hastings Street. Like Ms. Woelke, they must hit the
pavement every day to raise enough cash for their drugs. Most steal. Many
women work as prostitutes.

“They have to do things they wouldn’t normally do.”

This is exactly what some of Canada’s top addiction experts want to find
out when they begin the first heroin prescription trial in North America.

If heroin addicts are freed of their daily chase for drugs, if it is given

to them three times a day like medicine, can they change their lives for
the better?

In a couple of weeks, the research team will begin taking applications
here in Vancouver and later in Toronto and Montreal from addicts who want
to be part of the study.

Researchers are looking for hard-core addicts, people who have tried and
failed at least twice to get clean. In the three cities, there are spots
for 428 addicts, roughly half of whom will receive heroin for a year; the
other half will receive methadone, an artificial opiate that controls the
cravings for heroin.

In Vancouver, the trials are causing a stir on the syringe-littered
streets of the city’s skid row, home to more than 4,000 drug users. Among
those who deal first hand with these chaotic lives, there’s a feeling that

Canada is breaking new ground in how it treats the most intractable of
drug addictions.

Similar studies in the Netherlands and Switzerland have shown positive
results for addicts.

“What if you could say to an addict, ‘For the next little while, you’re
not going to have to get your drugs from Al Capone. You can get your drugs

from Marcus Welby,’ ” said Dr. Martin Schechter, the project’s lead
researcher.

“You don’t have to worry about this afternoon and this evening. And
therefore, you don’t have to go and break in to cars or be a prostitute.
You could actually come and talk to a counsellor or . . . get some skills
training.”

It’s a landmark study in North America, one that turns its back on
abstinence as the goal.

But not everyone is thrilled with the prospect of free heroin for
hard-core addicts. And even supporters have expressed concern about the
ethics of offering heroin to addicts for a prescribed period of time. Is
it fair to yank away their heroin at the end of the year?

Addiction experts in Canada have already expressed concerns about the risk

of overdoses.

Last December, two staff physicians at Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and
Mental Health wrote scathing critiques to the ethics adviser of the
Canadian Institutes of Health Research, the agency funding the study.

Vancouver physician Stanley deVlaming is worried the trials are designed
to garner positive results. In Vancouver, 88 subjects are to receive
heroin, while 70 will receive methadone, the heroin substitute.

“How meaningful will it be to compare the group of 88 elated subjects that

win the heroin lottery to the group of 70 who were also desperately trying

to get the free heroin, but lost the luck of the draw?” asked Dr.
deVlaming, who has treated addicts in the Downtown Eastside for more than
a dozen years.

“The first group would likely be very motivated to give the researchers
positive results, while the second disappointed and disgruntled group
randomized to methadone would be much less motivated.”

As expected, the plan has rankled U.S. drug officials, specifically the
office of White House drug czar John Walters, where an official called it
an unethical and “inhumane medical experiment.”

Offering free heroin to addicts when there are proven treatments for
addiction can’t be justified if the addict’s desire is to get off drugs,
policy analyst David Murray said.

“What you’re doing is making it easier to be a heroin addict,” he said
from Washington. “These people won’t get that much better in the long run.

They will still be heroin addicts.”

Washington’s disapproval was expected and hasn’t deterred Ottawa from
funding the study. The Canadian Institutes of Health Research has
committed $8.1-million for the trials.

In Vancouver, the plan has the support of top politicians and law
enforcers, including the mayor and the police chief.

Mayor Larry Campbell, who was once a coroner and drug cop, said the trials

are needed because current treatments aren’t working for hard-core
addicts.

“The critical thing is to accept this as a medical condition,” Mr.
Campbell said.

“The side effects of this medical condition is that it forces you to . . .

do things that you would never do, be it work as a sex-trade worker, be a
B and E [break-and-enter] artist or a purse snatcher. So if I can mitigate

that by putting you on heroin, imagine the changes you could have.”

Right now, the trial is waiting for Health Canada to grant the necessary
exemption form the Canadian Narcotics Act.

Ms. Woelke said she plans to tell her friends to apply. She would be
content to get on the methadone program.

“Methadone, whatever,” she said shrugging her shoulders. “I need something

every day.”

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 2, 2005 at 4:36:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“always look at the bright side of life!”<

Right on!
Love that song.
Love the Python, period.
And yeah, there is that whole tolerance issue with the shrooms, just like with every single other thing.
V’s not really going to go on mushroom maintenance, she’s really only stating thoughts out loud, thinking she would probably enjoy it. But as she pointed out, she’s the type of person who never lets herself get to the point where she’s out of control, or very, very rarely (I’ve only seen her sick from drinking too much once in over 8 years, and never ever wasted on anything else, with the sole exception of shrooms once, when she was totally out of her skull on her first real visionary trip a few years ago- that was fun, being with her on her first ego-breakdown of a trip.) She would take them for a few days then decide “not today.” That’s how she is with everything, even cigarettes. She smokes one every few days, or every week or two.
V rules. She’s at a friend’s at the moment, having volunteered to take care of these 50-some cats this friend of ours has in her home (a friend I first met years ago while we were both attending NA meetings- neither of us attend any longer). Our friend runs a cat rescue place, and is now off in Arizona getting the final operation to become not a man anymore. (Ouch, a completely different topic- while I’m pretty in touch with my feminine side, I cannot personally imagine ever deciding, “hey, I don’t think I need this male appendige anymore.” Of course, I’m not gay or anything, but still, I’d think it a pretty important thing to keep ahold of, even were I to ever decide I prefered being boffed rather than boffing, if you know what I mean.) So V is taking care of the cats for her while she’s off getting snipped.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

Hi Preston,

Naturally it will not work, your body will get use to it,
Like we get use to pot, and coffee and other things…
There is nothing like trying and knowing for yourself.
V could enjoy it for a while then stop when she feels it doesn’t do the
trick any longer, after waiting few weeks it will do the trick again.

The good thing about mushroom is, you can grow them so easily, make tea
With mint and ginseng and other herbs and freeze it, that can be kept for
few months.

“always look at the bright side of life!”

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 2 februari 2005 20:43
Aan: drugwar@mindvox.com; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

HI all,
So V was with some friends last night after a party we went to for her
job (employees’ x-max party, a late one), and someone turned her on to snall

amount of shrooms, which she immediately proceeded to eat. She really,
really enjoys those a lot, so had a good time hanging out tripping very
mildly and talking about this, that and the other. She mentioned to me this
morning that she enjoys the feeling so much, and feels so much more balanced

when very, very lightly feeling shrooms-not full on tripping, just that bare

inkling of a buzz, but still tripping- that she feels she could put herself
on mushroom maintenance and be happier. LOL, I couldn’t believe my ears, but

what the hell. If she feels she’d be happier slightly tripping all the time,

who am I to tell her she’s wrong or bad for thinking so? Especially when she

glow to brightly when on shrooms?
;-)))

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that
makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping. She

disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m going

to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want as
much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and commune
with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that
condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very much
enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going out
in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the
dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the
solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,

Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome?? Electrical Shocks?!
Date: February 2, 2005 at 3:30:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi LIst,

On the topic of antidepressant problems- I came across
this article in our alternative weekly rag, Now
Magazine.
It is the story of one man’s experience withdrawing
from Effexor.  I have read anecdotal reports all over
the net about the ‘electrical shocks’ that accompany
SSRI withdrawal.  All I have to say is, YIKES!

http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2005-01-27/news_story7.php

I would be interested to hear if anyone else here has
experienced something similar.

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 2, 2005 at 3:13:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston,

Naturally it will not work, your body will get use to it,
Like we get use to pot, and coffee and other things…
There is nothing like trying and knowing for yourself.
V could enjoy it for a while then stop when she feels it doesn’t do the
trick any longer, after waiting few weeks it will do the trick again.

The good thing about mushroom is, you can grow them so easily, make tea
With mint and ginseng and other herbs and freeze it, that can be kept for
few months.

“always look at the bright side of life!”

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 2 februari 2005 20:43
Aan: drugwar@mindvox.com; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] m maintanence

HI all,
So V was with some friends last night after a party we went to for her
job (employees’ x-max party, a late one), and someone turned her on to snall

amount of shrooms, which she immediately proceeded to eat. She really,
really enjoys those a lot, so had a good time hanging out tripping very
mildly and talking about this, that and the other. She mentioned to me this
morning that she enjoys the feeling so much, and feels so much more balanced

when very, very lightly feeling shrooms-not full on tripping, just that bare

inkling of a buzz, but still tripping- that she feels she could put herself
on mushroom maintenance and be happier. LOL, I couldn’t believe my ears, but

what the hell. If she feels she’d be happier slightly tripping all the time,

who am I to tell her she’s wrong or bad for thinking so? Especially when she

glow to brightly when on shrooms?
;-)))

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that
makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping. She

disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m going

to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want as
much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and commune
with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that
condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very much
enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going out
in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the
dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the
solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,

Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Dr. Thomas Lee” <drlee@naturodoc.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT:Teen Claims Antidepressant Led to Murder
Date: February 2, 2005 at 3:13:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Teen Claims Antidepressant Led to Murder

By BRUCE SMITH, Associated Press Writer

CHARLESTON, S.C. – A teenager who shot and killed his grandparents as they
slept is “a shy, decent boy” who was led to kill by the antidepressant
Zoloft, his attorney said as the boy went on trial.

Photo
<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050201/480/wxs11202011328>
AP Photo
<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050201/480/wxs11202011328>

AP Photo Photo <javascript:
rs(“ss”,”http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/story/slideshow/ap/20050201/zoloft
_defense/14165874/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/020105pittma
nmurder&tmpl=sl&e=1″,750,580);>
AP Photo <javascript:
rs(“ss”,”http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/story/slideshow/ap/20050201/zoloft
_defense/14165874/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/020105pittma
nmurder&tmpl=sl&e=1″,750,580);>
Slideshow<http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/auctions/cam.gif>
Slideshow: Teen Claims Antidepressant Prompted Murder <javascript:
rs(“ss”,”http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/story/slideshow/ap/20050201/zoloft
_defense/14165874/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/020105pittma
nmurder&tmpl=sl&e=1″,750,580);>

Christopher Pittman, now 15, is being tried as an adult for two counts of
murder in the November 2001 slayings of Joe and Joy Pittman with a
pump-action shotgun. Their house was set ablaze and the youth, then 12,
drove off in the family car.

Defense attorney Andy Vickery said Monday that Zoloft was to blame.

“This is a case about one drug that has taken three lives. When you hear the
case, you will have the power and opportunity to give one back,” he said. “A
shy, decent boy was acting under the influence of a mind-altering drug.”

Prosecutors contend Pittman shot his grandparents because they disciplined
him for fighting on a school bus.

“This is not a case about Zoloft. This is not a case about Pfizer,”
prosecutor Barney Giese told the jury in opening statements. “This is a case
about Chris Pittman.”

Pittman, who had threatened suicide, was put on Zoloft three weeks before
the slayings, and his dose was doubled just two days earlier.

In October, the Food and Drug Administration (news
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_us/zoloft_defense/14165
874/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Food%2
0and%20Drug%20Administration%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw>  – web sites
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_us/zoloft_defense/14165
874/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Food%20and%20Drug%20
Administration> ) ordered Zoloft and other antidepressants to carry “black
box” warnings – the government’s strongest warning short of a ban – about
increasing the risk of suicidal behavior in children.

Pfizer has vigorously fought cases claiming antidepressants cause violent or
suicidal behavior.

Pittman could be sentenced to 30 years to life in prison if convicted.

See Photos:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=3&u=/ap/20050201/ap_on
_re_us/zoloft_defense

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] m maintanence
Date: February 2, 2005 at 2:43:27 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI all,
So V was with some friends last night after a party we went to for her job (employees’ x-max party, a late one), and someone turned her on to snall amount of shrooms, which she immediately proceeded to eat. She really, really enjoys those a lot, so had a good time hanging out tripping very mildly and talking about this, that and the other. She mentioned to me this morning that she enjoys the feeling so much, and feels so much more balanced when very, very lightly feeling shrooms-not full on tripping, just that bare inkling of a buzz, but still tripping- that she feels she could put herself on mushroom maintenance and be happier. LOL, I couldn’t believe my ears, but what the hell. If she feels she’d be happier slightly tripping all the time, who am I to tell her she’s wrong or bad for thinking so? Especially when she glow to brightly when on shrooms?
;-)))

Myself? I prefer to really full-on trip when I do take something that makes people trip, and don’t really enjoy that bare hinting of tripping. She disagrees, saying she is tripping just not so hard, but for me, if I’m going to go through that feeling, I want the full effects, or at least, I want as much effect as possible, prefering to eat a lot and lie in bed and commune with the god(s) and stuff. (Not always, also enjoying going out in that condition and trying not to let on I am in said condition, always very much enjoying that sort of thing, getting incredibly off my face then going out in public to see if I can maintain. But I prefer these days to lie in the dark with some good tunes on and candles and incense burning and do the solitary trip thing.)
Blah, blah, blah, just thought I’d babble at you all for a moment.
Anyone else have thoughts on mushroom maintenance?

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: a session with Dr Hoffman
Date: February 2, 2005 at 10:21:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I could make out SOME of the words, and I distinctly
heard the guy sing “LSD to DMT, LSD to DMT”, and then
something about loving those moments of pure bliss…

It was very cool….

Julie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
Subject: Fw: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!
Date: February 2, 2005 at 4:52:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here you go Presten, It sure is a great trip!
Its worth the save,
Susan

—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!


here ya go fellow ibonaunts….
http://www.mikeisgod.com/movies/flashbackplay.asp
love ya all
jeff

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!
Date: February 2, 2005 at 1:28:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com


here ya go fellow ibonaunts….
http://www.mikeisgod.com/movies/flashbackplay.asp
love ya all
jeff

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: a session with Dr Hoffman
Date: February 2, 2005 at 12:18:08 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

will someone please repost this amazing link for me? I somehow hit delete and then apparently deleted again so something.
Thanks.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <Jeffgd1@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: a session with Dr Hoffman

Hey There
just to be clear I had nothing to do with the making of this flash…i only wish i could but it was sent to me through a old GD friend and as soon as i saw it i knew who to send it to…who else but the ibonaunts!
i even thought i heard the word eboga the first time i saw it but???
DMT for sure was a real big influence as was ayahuasca i believe and who knows what else maybe shulgins new 2-co 2c1 et al????
Freaking Freely
Feeling a bit better
Jeff

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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: a session with Dr Hoffman
Date: February 1, 2005 at 9:28:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey There
just to be clear I had nothing to do with the making of this flash…i only wish i could but it was sent to me through a old GD friend and as soon as i saw it i knew who to send it to…who else but the ibonaunts!
i even thought i heard the word eboga the first time i saw it but???
DMT for sure was a real big influence as was ayahuasca i believe and who knows what else maybe shulgins new 2-co 2c1 et al????
Freaking Freely
Feeling a bit better
Jeff

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!
Date: February 1, 2005 at 9:20:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Amazing  !! I the part in the jungle is ….. amazing..
Knowing  how Flash is difficult, I can realy appreciate the amount of work
behind your wotk !! I am envious 🙁
francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: “Germán DC” <gcaldelas@fibertel.com.ar>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!

Jeff
that´s a trance in Flash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!

Jeff,

OH…My….GOD…..That was one of the coolest Flash
presentations  I have ever seen.  I am so impressed, I
hardly know what to say…

Fantastic, just fantastic….

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick short
Date: February 1, 2005 at 9:04:48 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi  Sean
This could work too, I wish you the best. 🙂
Francis
God bless

—– Original Message —–
From: UUSEAN@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick short

Hi Francis,

Actually I have doing dope every other day or so.  Am wheening myself off at my own pace with a harm reduction therapist.  I am doing no crack, pot or shrooms in fact. Little to no booze either.  This week I have done no dope.  I made an agreement in therapy to do so.  I have just not committed to full abstinence yet.   I have no desire for crack, don’t like shrooms, and have not come across any weed.

Sean

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] help save pieman.org
Date: February 1, 2005 at 8:23:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

bush sucks, so do panhandlers.  do you sing or tap dance…i need more than hate to shell out bro.  i’m fighting him as well as my comrades and homies
—– Original Message —– From: “ARON KAY” <pieman@pieman.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:14 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] help save pieman.org

TO MY YIPPIE, HIPPIE, ANARCHIST,PEACENIK,STONER & RAINBOW FAMILY COMRADES!!!
I AM COMMUNICATING AN URGENT REQUEST!! I AM BROKE!!! I AM REACHING OUT TO
YOU TO HELP PIEMAN.ORG SURVIVE ANOTHER TERM OF AN ASSHOLE NAMED BUSH!!! IF
YOU WISH THE SITE TO SURVIVE!!CLICK THE PAYPAL DONATION AND VISA ICONS
BELOW….THE GREEN ENERGY WILL BE GOING THRU AJ WEBERMAN THE OWNER OF
ACIDTRIP.COM …IF YOU DO DONATE, EMAIL ME VIA pieman1024@aol.com
I NEED TO RAISE APPROXIMATELY $200 TO COVER MY DOMAIN AND WEB HOSTING BILLS
ALSO DONATIONS CAN BE MAILED TO: ARON KAY; 510 BRIGHTON BEACH AVE.PMB#180;
BROOKLYN, NY 11235; CHECKS AND MONEY ORDERS TO BE MADE PAYABLE TO AJ
WEBERMAN

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From: “ARON KAY” <pieman@pieman.org>
Subject: [Ibogaine] help save pieman.org
Date: February 1, 2005 at 8:14:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

TO MY YIPPIE, HIPPIE, ANARCHIST,PEACENIK,STONER & RAINBOW FAMILY COMRADES!!!
I AM COMMUNICATING AN URGENT REQUEST!! I AM BROKE!!! I AM REACHING OUT TO
YOU TO HELP PIEMAN.ORG SURVIVE ANOTHER TERM OF AN ASSHOLE NAMED BUSH!!! IF
YOU WISH THE SITE TO SURVIVE!!CLICK THE PAYPAL DONATION AND VISA ICONS
BELOW….THE GREEN ENERGY WILL BE GOING THRU AJ WEBERMAN THE OWNER OF
ACIDTRIP.COM …IF YOU DO DONATE, EMAIL ME VIA pieman1024@aol.com
I NEED TO RAISE APPROXIMATELY $200 TO COVER MY DOMAIN AND WEB HOSTING BILLS
ALSO DONATIONS CAN BE MAILED TO: ARON KAY; 510 BRIGHTON BEACH AVE.PMB#180;
BROOKLYN, NY 11235; CHECKS AND MONEY ORDERS TO BE MADE PAYABLE TO AJ
WEBERMAN

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From: “tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: a session with Dr Hoffman
Date: February 1, 2005 at 7:41:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank you Jeff. That was beautiful. How did the artists even do those? The
ending cartoon was a step down, but somebody pulled those in from Ayahuasca,
Ibogaine, or DMT, I bet.  Wish the drums worked that good for me.

Good job.

Dr. Tom

—–Original Message—–
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com [mailto:Jeffgd1@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:56 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!

here ya go fellow ibonaunts….
http://www.mikeisgod.com/movies/flashbackplay.asp
love ya all
jeff

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] nazi’s on speed
Date: February 1, 2005 at 6:37:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi tom et al.:

an english edition of the book will be forthcoming
heres an overview that contains the books main thesis:
http://www.svn.net/rmetzner/books_essays.html#nazis

not all of the articles in it are great, but most are fascinating
btw one of the contributing authors is the brother of my freshly iboganized lovely xgirlfriend

i just had to give up my criminal career because of financial reasons, so this hollywood licence sounds like a good idea.

-ekki

Am 01.02.2005 um 21:33 schrieb tomo7:

Ekki, et al:

This sounds like a heavy metal rock band in Vegas, but it must be an
interesting book.  Alternate world history is always fascinating, especially
for cross connections leading to a better knowledge of our present.  I know
that Hitler was into natural health and medicine in a big way.  The
development of amphetamines tied in to scientific programs trying for life
extension and sensory enhancement.  Charting the rise and crash of the Third
Reich resembles a group speed addiction, with patterns of initial
stimulation and high performance, followed by increasing delusions, paranoia
and exhaustion.  I wonder what break time activities they had during the
command meetings after ’44? Was that experience a “dis-ease”, power
addiction, or a collective learning opportunity? Was it all evil and
criminal for everyone? Interesting connections to many questions we discuss.

Several of the SS were Homeopathic physicians and themselves Jewish, and
I’ve heard Hiltler himself was the illegitimate son of a Rothschilde, but we
don’t look for redeeming psychological studies of recent Monsters very
often, or work to bless and forgive them for their crimes.

I’ve heard that the free will vs. addiction question about treating drug use
with Ibo has people agreeing that it is about bringing more choice and
personal options to the drug users and thereby freeing the user and society
of the terrible suffering and costs that currently go with this insane war
on some drug users of some drugs. As for social force being used to deprive
people of their civil rights, it isn’t only fascists, as every modern nation
is built on and maintained by coercive force and mind control against it’s
subject people. Our exported “freedom” to Iraqi school kids in need of
regime change is just a recent example. And the Russians weren’t ever
sweethearts to each other, even while agreeing to kill fascists.

The Lotsof Ibo hospital concept rules. It would have to be outside of the US
to fly, and probably would have to build on existing good medicine and
social approval for same. Sara, are there any hospitals and mainstream
doctors in the Netherlands who might be interested in such a concept? Do you
providers have networking suggestions for putting this concept out into the
light of day?

Thanks for all of your efforts to be heard and understood. I like your taxi
outreach idea, Ekki. Could you get that book translated and published?  You
could even license just the title to Hollywood.  It might get really popular
here.

Dr. Tom

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot Pic from Tar Town
Date: February 1, 2005 at 6:24:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Sean,  ’tis good to hear how you’ve been doin’
-J

___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: UUSEAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick short
Date: February 1, 2005 at 6:09:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Francis,

Actually I have doing dope every other day or so.  Am wheening myself off at my own pace with a harm reduction therapist.  I am doing no crack, pot or shrooms in fact. Little to no booze either.  This week I have done no dope.  I made an agreement in therapy to do so.  I have just not committed to full abstinence yet.   I have no desire for crack, don’t like shrooms, and have not come across any weed.

Sean

From: UUSEAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick (long)
Date: February 1, 2005 at 6:03:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Donna,

I certainly recommend ibogaine as an addiction interrupter.  Aftercare is what follows ibo treatment.:)

Sean

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine hospitals/was/Re: [Ibogaine] nazi’s on speed
Date: February 1, 2005 at 6:02:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/1/05 4:01:26 PM, tomo7@starband.net writes:

<< The Lotsof Ibo hospital concept rules. It would have to be outside of the
US

to fly, and probably would have to build on existing good medicine and

social approval for same. Sara, are there any hospitals and mainstream

doctors in the Netherlands who might be interested in such a concept? Do you

providers have networking suggestions for putting this concept out into the

light of day?  >>

Tom,

What I need is a kitty of about 25K to see if I can influence a well placed
doctor or two and concurrently evaluate hospital availability.  There are no
guarantees but, you have to have cash to get things moving.  The 25k is a
general estimate to evaluate the situation in any given country.  If you or any
other persons are interested, contact me via private email, we can sign
confidentiality agreements and begin to discuss proceeding.  That does not mean we will
succeed.

Howard

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] nazi’s on speed
Date: February 1, 2005 at 4:10:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Sara, are there any hospitals and mainstream doctors in the Netherlands who
might be interested in such a concept? Do you providers have networking
suggestions for putting this concept out into the light of day?”

Sorry but I can’t answer , I have no idea.

I had never asked.

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From: “tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] nazi’s on speed
Date: February 1, 2005 at 3:33:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki, et al:

This sounds like a heavy metal rock band in Vegas, but it must be an
interesting book.  Alternate world history is always fascinating, especially
for cross connections leading to a better knowledge of our present.  I know
that Hitler was into natural health and medicine in a big way.  The
development of amphetamines tied in to scientific programs trying for life
extension and sensory enhancement.  Charting the rise and crash of the Third
Reich resembles a group speed addiction, with patterns of initial
stimulation and high performance, followed by increasing delusions, paranoia
and exhaustion.  I wonder what break time activities they had during the
command meetings after ’44? Was that experience a “dis-ease”, power
addiction, or a collective learning opportunity? Was it all evil and
criminal for everyone? Interesting connections to many questions we discuss.

Several of the SS were Homeopathic physicians and themselves Jewish, and
I’ve heard Hiltler himself was the illegitimate son of a Rothschilde, but we
don’t look for redeeming psychological studies of recent Monsters very
often, or work to bless and forgive them for their crimes.

I’ve heard that the free will vs. addiction question about treating drug use
with Ibo has people agreeing that it is about bringing more choice and
personal options to the drug users and thereby freeing the user and society
of the terrible suffering and costs that currently go with this insane war
on some drug users of some drugs. As for social force being used to deprive
people of their civil rights, it isn’t only fascists, as every modern nation
is built on and maintained by coercive force and mind control against it’s
subject people. Our exported “freedom” to Iraqi school kids in need of
regime change is just a recent example. And the Russians weren’t ever
sweethearts to each other, even while agreeing to kill fascists.

The Lotsof Ibo hospital concept rules. It would have to be outside of the US
to fly, and probably would have to build on existing good medicine and
social approval for same. Sara, are there any hospitals and mainstream
doctors in the Netherlands who might be interested in such a concept? Do you
providers have networking suggestions for putting this concept out into the
light of day?

Thanks for all of your efforts to be heard and understood. I like your taxi
outreach idea, Ekki. Could you get that book translated and published?  You
could even license just the title to Hollywood.  It might get really popular
here.

Dr. Tom

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:18 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] scary fascism

In a message dated 1/27/05 8:57:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:

saying that government should coerce people into “positive” change
in
their lives IS periously close to what the nazis did to the jews,
gypsies,
homosexuals, disabled, and other undesirables of their time

the nazis put junkies in concentration camps. drug users didn´t fit into
their picture of a healthy aryan.
anti-drug laws were passed under hitler and havent changed much since then,
but were copied by other countries.

the irony is that the nazis gave pervitin (an amphetamin) to their soldiers
and pushed the development of drugs like methadone. hitler himself was
polytoxic, addicted to amphetamines, barbiturates and stuff like
Oxycodon-HCI. at the same time he was a vegetarian, non-smoking,
non-drinking and anti-drugs. he planed to make even smoking and drinking
illegal after winning the war.

thereto is a voluminous book called “nazis on speed”, unfortunately it is
only available in german language so far.

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From: Germán DC <gcaldelas@fibertel.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:49:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jeff
that´s a trance in Flash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!

Jeff,

OH…My….GOD…..That was one of the coolest Flash
presentations  I have ever seen.  I am so impressed, I
hardly know what to say…

Fantastic, just fantastic….

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:17:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jeff,

OH…My….GOD…..That was one of the coolest Flash
presentations  I have ever seen.  I am so impressed, I
hardly know what to say…

Fantastic, just fantastic….

Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot Brain Awarness Week 2005 / Silly Rabbit, Trips are for Kids
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:09:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

BRAIN AWARENESS WEEK 2005

Brain Awareness Week (BAW) is next month! I hope you
have plans. It’s
not
too late to find a neuroscientist to visit your class.
Visit the SfN
web
site to locate a neuroscientist near you:

http://web.sfn.org/Template.cfm?Section=Neuroscientist_TeacherPartners

Here at the University of Washington, 300 students
will attend the 8th
annual BAW Open House. The Open House will feature
hands-on,
interactive
exhibits sponsored by researchers and staff from
various university
departments and organizations. If you would like to
share what you did
during BAW, send me (e-mail: chudler@u.washington.edu)
a summary of
your
activities and I will try to include it in a future
issue of the
Neuroscience for Kids newsletter.

Even if you cannot organize a brain fair or a
classroom visit by a
neuroscientist, you can still participate in BAW with
some lessons
about
the brain and nervous system. Neuroscience for Kids
has some “brainy”
ideas for a day, a week or a whole month:

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/baw1.html
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/act.html

In celebration of BAW, send a “brainy” postcard to a
friend or family
member. See:

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/post/baw1.html

___________________________________________________________
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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] have a session with Dr Hoffman….worth the trip!
Date: February 1, 2005 at 12:55:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

here ya go fellow ibonaunts….
http://www.mikeisgod.com/movies/flashbackplay.asp
love ya all
jeff

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the last 4-5 months
Date: February 1, 2005 at 11:31:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I haven’t slept right since I started using opiates.  I used to be able to sleep all day, if I wanted to.  Now, I have been clean for 10 months+ from methadone and other opiates, yet I only sleep 6-7 hours tops, if that.  I am not tired all the time, though, so I think my sleep is restful sleep.  I just started getting used to it, and it isn’t that bad.  High-grade ganja helps also with my sleeping, as does melatonin, but as you said, it only works for about 4-5 hours.  I don’t mind being able to get early and stay up late because I can get more done.
Shawn

shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Julie, have you tried acupuncture ,it really helped me post ibogaine for sleep.

Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,

My question is for those treated recently: how are
your sleeping patterns? Is it just me, or do you
often wake up several times per night, for no apparent
reason? Or have your patterns returned to normal?

Melatonin seems to work pretty well, but only for the
first 4-5 hours and then BOOM!!: I wake up between
3-6am, every single night, regardless of diet, drug
intake, the day’s activities, etc….

I don’t want to complain, but it’s really starting to
get to me. I would really like to have 7 hours of
uninterrupted sleep, and I just can’t seem to get that
now. Don’t want any benzos, but would like some
advice on how to improve quality of sleep…

smiles,
Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com

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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] scary fascism
Date: February 1, 2005 at 11:17:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 1/27/05 8:57:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:

saying that government should coerce people into “positive” change in
their lives IS periously close to what the nazis did to the jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, disabled, and other undesirables of their time

the nazis put junkies in concentration camps. drug users didn´t fit into their picture of a healthy aryan.
anti-drug laws were passed under hitler and havent changed much since then, but were copied by other countries.

the irony is that the nazis gave pervitin (an amphetamin) to their soldiers and pushed the development of drugs like methadone. hitler himself was polytoxic, addicted to amphetamines, barbiturates and stuff like Oxycodon-HCI. at the same time he was a vegetarian, non-smoking, non-drinking and anti-drugs. he planed to make even smoking and drinking illegal after winning the war.

thereto is a voluminous book called “nazis on speed”, unfortunately it is only available in german language so far.

From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick short
Date: February 1, 2005 at 10:31:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Good to read that you find a way that work for you, man
So how much dope you are taking now ? Not talking about shrooms ,pot, and crack?
In my humble opinion, you should take another time Ibogaine, before your nice umbrella hit the fan.

Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: UUSEAN@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick (long)

In a message dated 1/27/05 8:57:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:

saying that government should coerce people into “positive” change in
their lives IS periously close to what the nazis did to the jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, disabled, and other undesirables of their time

Hey list,

Queer junkie with AIDS here.  This thread I must say first has been a blast. Haven’t seen this much fire on this list in a good while.  Wild enough that it brought me out of lurking!

I feel I must throw my two cents in here for harm reduction. Personally, ibogaine was one of the finest moves I have ever made from a harm reduction prospective. When I joined this list, I had a raving crack addiction and a growing dope addiction.  Four months later I actually got ibogaine treatment. Kind of amazing really.

At the time, I had just started work with a harm reduction therapist. For the first time I felt that my choice to use or not use was largely in my power. I gave up on the drug is a drug is a drug attitude of NA, and smoked a hell of a lot of weed after ibogaine treatment.  My crack use became minimal, and remains so. I am no longer powerless over crack cocaine. Alleluia!

Underlying psychic pain remained with me however, and my heroin use grew. I found dope much more manageable than crack. I have gone back to work full time. I am paying off debts.

Meanwhile, I have struggled with success to keep my dope use to a happy medium. I am not physically addicted, and am working in therapy to free myself from the dirty diesel as well.

But on my terms.  On my timetable. I have largely cut loose from life 12 steppers of any stripe, prohibitionists, and any other well meaning type who gets high off of “helping” me.  I am educating myself in harm reduction.  I am empowered. I use dope. I am moving toward quitting dope.  All on my terms.

When I discovered ibogaine, I had no idea this is where my life would go. Perhaps my empowerment began with the ability to choose ibogaine in the first place. Not the cops, a lover, family….my choice.  I did agree to aftercare, which was not really so hard since I was already working a fine harm reduction therapist in NYC.

Finally, I am no rush to use ibogaine again.  I am not physically addicted at this time, and see no point it really.  I am open-minded to another treatment down the line, however. I am not turned off by the insistence of providers of ibogaine that aftercare be sought.  As long as I have full say in the type of aftercare.  If one does have a problem with the aftercare “rule” , well, we are dealing with a schedule one in the US, so providers in the US are sadly put in the role of dealers. You want their serve, you at least pay lip service to their rules.  I would rather avoid ibogaine at this point. Instead, I am putting my energy toward working under the bigger umbrella of harm reduction, and work toward the legalization of ibogaine.

Anyway, nice to be back on the list.  And thanks for this thread.

Peace,
Sean

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 10:03:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I still get some slight visual traces at odd moments, nearly 6 months after my sessions, colors suddenly much more vivid and sparkling, subtle trails, things like this. I did a lot of lsd about half my life ago, lots and lots and lots and lots but never had a single “flashback” though I always looked out for them, hoping that perhaps I should be so luc…errr, well….anyway…I never had flashbacks at all until after the ibogaine sessions, and now it feels like yes indeed I do get very, very, very subtle flashbacks at rare moments- pleasant and not at all unsettling ones that I do notice immediately and enjoy each and every time.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo

My eyes blurred terribly for 2-3 weeks too, after my third session, not to mention constantly seeing odd lights out of the furthest corners of my eyes (most especially at the grocery store so I think the flourescent lights were part of it.)  But I had been clean a year when I did that session, so opiates weren’t an issue.  Seems like ibo is such a visual thing.  For several years I would wake up in the morning from a dream and it would turn into a mini-ibo visual.  I always recognized it as such because, a dream feels like it lives in my head or throughout my body, but my ibo visuals always seem to be located very literally in one or both eyes itself…
Sandy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:52:10 EST

In a message dated 1/31/05 10:40:54 PM, jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au writes:
<<  I find my vision and all my other senses still tuning in.
For about 2 to 3 weeks after my treatment I also
experienced my eyes bluring.
>>
Could it be because your eyes were not restricted from opioids thus having a diminished depth of field causing some things to appear blurred.
Howard

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From: Scarlett111967@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 1, 2005 at 9:50:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think you’ve got me confused with someone else–My e-mail add is Scarlett111967@aol.com—my name is not jason–sorry for the confusion

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: February 1, 2005 at 7:17:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jasen, I sure wish you could make it to New York for the conference. Of
course I can understand  how much it would cost. I just was wondering how much it
would take to get to Australia, and the mind boggles at the price. It’s great
to see the love flowing in your words.             Randy

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From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: February 1, 2005 at 7:07:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Every person is unique and everyones needs different. I appreciate the feed back and agree with you on ” if you need it, take it.” problem is that most addicts can’t take it for real needs and take it as properly prescribed. The comments I gave where gross generalities and not absolutes. Glad you are well.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: Letters from Saints
Date: February 1, 2005 at 5:10:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Finally I get to see the ghost of Curt Cobain. My son loves you and your
music. I love you and your music too, but it doesn’t stop me from wanting to screw
your wife.    Randy

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick (long)
Date: February 1, 2005 at 4:56:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Sean

What do you mean about the choice of after care ??????? would you recommend ibogaine treatment for heroin addiction???
love donna

From: “FakePlacebo” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] To Mr. Lotsof
Date: February 1, 2005 at 4:53:27 AM EST
To: “Summary” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“I’m losing the language….constricted that is.”

Dear Howard,
Don’t worry about it; sometimes everbody does :))

Best Regards
FakePlacebo

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 4:52:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard and all, I didn’t really think about this thread ’till I saw Howard
mention chemo therapy. I had just finished the Hep C treatment with interferon
when I did the Ibogaine treatment. It seems that my eyesight was very bad after
all of that but has improved a little. I couldn’t read in bed without a light
right on me, now it’s a little better and I don’t have to use a flashlight or
whatever right on top of my book to read. Now that you mention it, blurry
vision hit me after my first shot of Pegasys. It’s a little better now but I
still need glasses.         Randy

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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: (OT) Re:ibo/cold turkey
Date: February 1, 2005 at 4:46:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI Preston

I loved that story it was really good, bought back memories of feelin that shit I never want to feel like that again.

Love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxx

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna
Date: February 1, 2005 at 4:33:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen

Im in the uk and i know about my so called friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I think im scared of doing the ibo I know i desparetly want off the heroin I want to live my life clean and really feel and deal with things and I dont do that on H Thanks for cheering me up and I would love to be your mate

Gday Love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: Clean Water <clean_wtr@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Off Topic Private Classified http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/beffect.html
Date: February 1, 2005 at 2:49:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

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From: Clean Water <clean_wtr@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: Letters from Saints
Date: February 1, 2005 at 2:45:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This note should be pretty easy to understand. All the
warnings from the Punk Rock 101 Courses over the
years, it’s my first introduction to the, shall we say
ethics involved with independence and the embracement
of your community has been proven to be very true. I
haven’t felt the excitement of listening to, as well
as creating music, along with really writing something
for too many years now. I feel guilty beyond words
about these things, for example when we’re backstage
and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowd
begins. It doesn’t affect me in the way which it did
for Freddie Mercury, who seemed to love and relish the
love and admiration from the crowd, which is something
I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can’t fool
you, any of you. It simply isn’t fair to you, or to
me. The worst crime I can think of would be to pull
people off by faking it, pretending as if I’m having
one hundred percent fun. Sometimes I feel as though I
should have a punch-in time clock before I walk out
on-stage. I’ve tried everything within my power to
appreciate it, and I do, God believe me, I do, but
it’s not enough. I appreciate the fact that I, and we,
have affected, and entertained a lot of people. I must
be one of the narcissists who only appreciate things
when they’re alone. I’m too sensitive, I need to be
slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasm. But,
what’s sad is our child. On our last three tours, I’ve
had a much better appreciation of all the people I’ve
known personally, and as fans of our music. But I
still can’t get out the frustration, the guilt, and
the sympathy I have for everybody. There is good in
all of us, and I simply love people too much. So much
that it makes me feel too fucking sad. The sad little
sensitive unappreciative pisces Jesus man. I have it
good, very good, and I’m grateful. But since the age
of 7, I’ve become hateful towards all humans in
general. Only because it seems so easy for people to
get along and have empathy. Empathy only because I
love and feel for people too much I guess. Thank you
from the pit of my burning nauseas stomach for your
letters and concern during the last years. I’m too
much of a neurotic moody person and I don’t have the
passion anymore, so remember, it’s “Better to Burn
out, than fade away.” Peace, love, empathy, Kurt Cobain.

__________________________________
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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 2:06:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen.  For some reason my third session was by far the most difficult and I took the least amount (and was clean.) The visuals went on forever –  I couldn’t seem to shake out of it and the overall effects seemed to last for a week or so plus the vision thing even longer.  However, once I did shake out, I sure felt GREAT for four months or so.  Then of course you get back to “normal.”
I think I know the sleep problem you are talking about and I believe it’s more related to ending the opiates stuff.  At least it was for me. After my first and third session, I actually felt quite wiped out by ibo and probably slept more and certainly easily.  I think it varies however with folks.  If I’m a little wiped out, sleep seems to come easily for me and seems theraputic as well.  One other thing that I’ve thought about too, is that after my first session, altho my tolerance went to pretty much zero, I became very depressed instead of that noribo effect.  Looking back I wonder if it’s because I did continue to use.  Seemed like the depression lasted as long as the noribogaine effect usually does… weird.
When I was much younger, I quit the worst habit I’d ever had and I swear it took a full year to feel really normal.  I spent hours going to movies, because I was working at a theater so could go to any movie in town for free.  It sure helped to take my mind off my body.  I think it takes quite a long time to feel really right, but that could vary for everyone too.  If you can stay with it, I know you’ll eventually feel good, but boy I know it can take a really long time.  Seems like you just get pieces here and there at first.
Best to you Jasen… Sandy

>From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>

>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo

>Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:37:10 +1000

>

>Hello Sandy,

>

>I am curious to know how you felt after the Ibo’ session,the one you had after a year of being clean?

>Was the “sleep” thing a problem?If so how long?

>

>Was it much different than doing it the first time with addiction?

>

>                                                  love,

>                                                 Jasen

>   —– Original Message —–

>   From: booker w

>   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>   Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:24 PM

>   Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo

>

>

>   My eyes blurred terribly for 2-3 weeks too, after my third session, not to mention constantly seeing odd lights out of the furthest corners of my eyes (most especially at the grocery store so I think the flourescent lights were part of it.)  But I had been clean a year when I did that session, so opiates weren’t an issue.  Seems like ibo is such a visual thing.  For several years I would wake up in the morning from a dream and it would turn into a mini-ibo visual.  I always recognized it as such because, a dream feels like it lives in my head or throughout my body, but my ibo visuals always seem to be located very literally in one or both eyes itself…

>

>                                    Sandy

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:37:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello Sandy,

I am curious to know how you felt after the Ibo’ session,the one you had after a year of being clean?
Was the “sleep” thing a problem?If so how long?

Was it much different than doing it the first time with addiction?

love,
Jasen
—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo

My eyes blurred terribly for 2-3 weeks too, after my third session, not to mention constantly seeing odd lights out of the furthest corners of my eyes (most especially at the grocery store so I think the flourescent lights were part of it.)  But I had been clean a year when I did that session, so opiates weren’t an issue.  Seems like ibo is such a visual thing.  For several years I would wake up in the morning from a dream and it would turn into a mini-ibo visual.  I always recognized it as such because, a dream feels like it lives in my head or throughout my body, but my ibo visuals always seem to be located very literally in one or both eyes itself…
Sandy

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] correction Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:41:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Howard,

Yes I believe you are right. My eyesight has always been good.
I believe they are tuning into my new existence.(Non opioid)

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] correction Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo

In a message dated 2/1/05 12:53:59 AM, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:

<< Could it be because your eyes were not restricted from opioids thus having
a
diminished depth of field causing some things to appear blurred. >>

I’m losing the language….constricted that is.

Howard

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:39:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I was just thinking about you these past couple of days Sean, and am very happy to see you pipe up outta the blue.
Especially from the space you seem to be in right now- what joy for me to see and read your message and put it to the face I know. Honestly, a joy to hear from you and a joy to read your opinion- even if I don’t agree one hundred percent with it all at all times. You are a cool dude to put it sorta sillily.
;-))
Seriously, good to see you are alive and well and pursuing your happiness is such a positive, opitimistic or at least seemingly clear-eyed fashion.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: UUSEAN@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick

Nick,

Perhaps you never read the intro to this fine list, but the only rule is don’t be an asshole.  Actually excuses to use heroin are quite welcome here. So is the delete button if you don’t like that.  If one can type with a rig in their arm and a crackpipe in their mouth, they are welcome here. Long as they don’t act like an asshole.

EXCUSES TO USE HEROIN:

1 It feels good.

2 I like dope.

Sorry, couldn’t help myself.:)

Cheers!
Sean

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] correction Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:27:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/1/05 12:53:59 AM, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:

<< Could it be because your eyes were not restricted from opioids thus having
a
diminished depth of field causing some things to appear blurred. >>

I’m losing the language….constricted that is.

Howard

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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 1:24:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My eyes blurred terribly for 2-3 weeks too, after my third session, not to mention constantly seeing odd lights out of the furthest corners of my eyes (most especially at the grocery store so I think the flourescent lights were part of it.)  But I had been clean a year when I did that session, so opiates weren’t an issue.  Seems like ibo is such a visual thing.  For several years I would wake up in the morning from a dream and it would turn into a mini-ibo visual.  I always recognized it as such because, a dream feels like it lives in my head or throughout my body, but my ibo visuals always seem to be located very literally in one or both eyes itself…
Sandy

>From: HSLotsof@aol.com

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo

>Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:52:10 EST

>

>

>In a message dated 1/31/05 10:40:54 PM, jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au writes:

>

><<  I find my vision and all my other senses still tuning in.

>

>For about 2 to 3 weeks after my treatment I also

>

>experienced my eyes bluring.

>

>  >>

>

>Could it be because your eyes were not restricted from opioids thus having a

>diminished depth of field causing some things to appear blurred.

>

>Howard

>

>

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>

>

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 12:52:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 1/31/05 10:40:54 PM, jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au writes:

<<  I find my vision and all my other senses still tuning in.

For about 2 to 3 weeks after my treatment I also

experienced my eyes bluring.

Could it be because your eyes were not restricted from opioids thus having a
diminished depth of field causing some things to appear blurred.

Howard

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: February 1, 2005 at 12:50:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Martee,

It is really impossible to figure this out.  Most people’s eyes fail without
ever coming into contact with ibogaine.  My eyesight diminished significantly
through concurrent computer screen viewing and chemotherapy.  And if it is
genetic or genetic to some extent, then dominant or recessive?  Too complex for
me.  But, glasses I do wear along with many others who have not touched iboga.

Howard

In a message dated 1/31/05 10:02:32 PM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:

<< Howard,

I believe I did the ibogaine HCL.  I was treated in that  wave last

summer.  Bone density test had definitley crossed my mind.  Maybe an eye

exam as well.  I am still reading ok with the same reading perscription I

got a couple of years ago, however without them I am seeing less small print

than I used to.  This large print appears blurry to me without the reading

glasses.  On the other hand my far sight is still really sharp. I actually

have a few theories of my own and will be delighted if any of them pan out.

Thank you so much for your response.  Any and all info is appreciated.

Martee

—– Original Message —–

From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>

To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>

Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:30 PM

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo

Hi Martee,

What form of iboga/ibogaine did you and your brother use?  Possibly your

vision, like other aspects of your physiology had just deteriorated.

Possibly,

opiates constricting your pupils allowed greater depth of field and once

that

effect of the opioids was gone well, glasses were next.  I know of one

person

who wore glasses since a youth and was able to give them up for twenty

years

post ibogaine.  But, then that doesn’t make sense with your brother since

his

vision returned to “normal” some weeks later.  I hadn’t heard of such an

effect

previously from ibogaine as deteriorated vision.

As for bones you might want to have a bone densitometry test to see what

state they are in.

Howard

In a message dated 1/31/05 12:14:55 PM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:

<< Julie and all,

The vision thing is a big issue with me.  Unlike yourself I didn’t

require reading glasses until 10 years ago,( by then many years into

using)

however after the ibo I noticed my reading vision has deteriorated. The

other day I had to ask my young nephew to read my fortune from the fortune

cookie. To me it looked like a solid line.  He swore to me it said “today

is

a good day to buy a present for someone you love !’  Anyway, this vision

thing is one of the main reasons I am hesitant to try another session.

Parts

of me desperately would like to do it again and then the other part wants

to

watch and see the natural progression of coming off and out from under the

effects of having taking ibogaine/being on methedone and heroin for over

20

years.  My brother-in-law had fuzzy vision for a good 2-3 weeks after his

session.

The sleeping thing:  I’m coming up on six months out and for me

about 6 weeks ago when I got my treadmill and starting using it really

regularly is when I started to sleep through the night.  About 10 days ago

I

wacked out my left knee on the treadmill from either too much incline work

or enthusiasm.  The mind was willing. I have to learn that moderation

thing

people keep telling me about. Since I have been laying off the treadmill I

have been waking up after 5- hours sleep, awake for 1-2 hours and then

resuming for another 2 hours.

Another thing for me to consider, since my right elbow seems to be

creaking a bit as well is this me just now noticing damage and aches and

pains from all those years of methedone (which as Preston pointed out was

an

amazing pain killer). You know how all the oldtimers on the programs are

walking with canes. While I did a lot of damage control at times, with my

diet, I feel a lot of those brittle bones form methedone can be  partly

from

malnutrition.

The thing you also mentioned about dreams and memories,  I’m also

feeling like I am clearing a lot of old memories and  past life stuff

that’s

been a thorn in my side thanks to the iboga.

I’d like to wait a while to see if there really is a such thing as

“normal”.

So I’m just real curious what’s coming next as far as the

progression

goes without complicating it with coming off of another session.

Although…. >> >>

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