Ibogaine List Archives – 2005-03

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Finance Randy
Date: March 31, 2005 at 11:01:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks, i can pull the con, just can’t lose my career and gig.  i am the only one that can take care of me.  no place to live but my house, no one to give me money, zero-lose it at 55 and i’m on the streets. wishing you continued success and thanks to all for responses. i’m surprised
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Finance

Ron, I told you months ago that I paid for my Ibogaine. I lied, I didn’t. I didn’t think it was any of your business who paid for my treatment. My step father paid for it. He’s not rich, he just loves my mother more than life itself. At the time, him and I didn’t get along very well, matter of fact after what he has experienced in his life I don’t think there was anything about mine that he respected. After watching me go thru the Ibogaine experience he found something to respect. This from a man who flew through the Pluesti raid 100 feet off the ground in a B 24 watching his friends burst into flames and hit the ground. My relationship with this man may just be one of the best things that has happened after Ibogaine. I finally found my father. I’m telling you this at the risk of sarcasm from you, but I don’t care, I want you to feel as free as I do right now. I didn’t know how I was going to pay for the Ibogaine, I just knew that I had to do it, so I put all my effort into finding a way. I would have done anything short of selling my grand fathers sax to get it. A way found me. He didn’t even like me at the time (my call) but somehow he knew it would change my life, not to mention it would shut my mother up for a while, (LOL). Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is, try and think positive, and con every mother fucker you can until you get what you need to do the Ibogaine. It sure helped me. Worry about the con later. You’ll deal with it in the trip.    Randy        PS maybe one of these days I’ll quit crying when I talk about my step father.

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Finance
Date: March 31, 2005 at 10:53:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

working a taper for several months.  got job problems that keep me from doing extended stays or i’d p/u and go.
—– Original Message —–
From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Finance

Ron ,ditto for me too.(all 4 ) when I made up my mind to do ibogaine all the pieces fell into place.One time I had a bed set up in a traditional detox (ouch) & they gave my bed away that am,I made one call & bam!That time I was being frugal & wanted to not spend a coupla grand.I have borrowed money to do it as well.Hows your credit?Why not start decreasing your benzo habit real slow your self for now ? Sometimes the littlest action can get the motion started.Not trying to sound condescending Ron, ,just wish you the best-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Ron, I told you months ago that I paid for my Ibogaine. I lied, I didn’t. I didn’t think it was any of your business who paid for my treatment. My step father paid for it. He’s not rich, he just loves my mother more than life itself. At the time, him and I didn’t get along very well, matter of fact after what he has experienced in his life I don’t think there was anything about mine that he respected. After watching me go thru the Ibogaine experience he found something to respect. This from a man who flew through the Pluesti raid 100 feet off the ground in a B 24 watching his friends burst into flames and hit the ground. My relationship with this man may just be one of the best things that has happened after Ibogaine. I finally found my father. I’m telling you this at the risk of sarcasm from you, but I don’t care, I want you to feel as free as I do right now. I didn’t know how I was going to pay for the Ibogaine, I just knew that I had to do it, so I put all my effort into finding a way. I would have done anything short of selling my grand fathers sax to get it. A way found me. He didn’t even like me at the time (my call) but somehow he knew it would change my life, not to mention it would shut my mother up for a while, (LOL). Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is, try and think positive, and con every mother fucker you can until you get what you need to do the Ibogaine. It sure helped me. Worry about the con later. You’ll deal with it in the trip.    Randy        PS maybe one of these days I’ll quit crying when I talk about my step father.

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Funds for Ibo-sandy
Date: March 31, 2005 at 10:49:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i’m down, no doubt. i’d be fool to be positive in my conditon. benefit yes, i’ve sought it, 1000 sounds like a giveaway with prices that have been quoted to me
how do you walk away from a gig you’ve had for 20 yrs for 2-3 weeks? no offense taken on my demeanor…many factors effect it that i do not share on list.
wishing you continued success and a peaceful path, ron
—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:02 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Funds for Ibo

Hey Ron… I heartily agree with Jasen’s words to you.    As far as paying for ibo, I can tell you my first trip was priced at around $1000 and that was certainly a lot more than I had laying around anywhere.  I remember telling a friend that if someone told me that I was going to hand over a grand to basically a total stranger, in a strange place, and let them give me a substance that hardly anyone in the world had ever heard of – I couldn’t believe how ridiculous that sounded!

I guess I’m saying that if you just allow it into your head that YES you are drawn to ibogaine, and you are definitely going to do it at some point, even if you don’t know exactly when – well,  it’s going to happen for sure.  And for me, I just made up my mind that I would borrow the money somewhere, and just making up my mind like that seemed to cause the money to show up without it being such a stretch.  Plus, once you’re thru the first experience, you can more easily work with it again at a greatly reduced stretch.

C’mon and give it a try. I know you can get the dough together, and if I ever met someone I think could really benefit from Iboga – it’s definitely you!  Not to offend, but you just seem “blanketed” in such incredible negativity and hopelessness, and ibo will rip that away at least for a bit.  It did for me…

Best and luck to you,  Sandy
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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Finance
Date: March 31, 2005 at 10:42:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:43:15 EST, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
<BiscuitBoy714@aol.com> wrote:     PS  > maybe one of these days I’ll
quit crying when I talk about my step father.

Thank you for sharing this Randy, all of it, not just the crying bit,
although that in particular is opening my heart in a much needed way
this a.m.

So you have more than a few angels in your life, eh?  You deserve ’em
bro.   Now I’m crying.  Much love, rach

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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Finance
Date: March 31, 2005 at 9:38:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ron ,ditto for me too.(all 4 ) when I made up my mind to do ibogaine all the pieces fell into place.One time I had a bed set up in a traditional detox (ouch) & they gave my bed away that am,I made one call & bam!That time I was being frugal & wanted to not spend a coupla grand.I have borrowed money to do it as well.Hows your credit?Why not start decreasing your benzo habit real slow your self for now ? Sometimes the littlest action can get the motion started.Not trying to sound condescending Ron, ,just wish you the best-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Ron, I told you months ago that I paid for my Ibogaine. I lied, I didn’t. I didn’t think it was any of your business who paid for my treatment. My step father paid for it. He’s not rich, he just loves my mother more than life itself. At the time, him and I didn’t get along very well, matter of fact after what he has experienced in his life I don’t think there was anything about mine that he respected. After watching me go thru the Ibogaine experience he found something to respect. This from a man who flew through the Pluesti raid 100 feet off the ground in a B 24 watching his friends burst into flames and hit the ground. My relationship with this man may just be one of the best things that has happened after Ibogaine. I finally found my father. I’m telling you this at the risk of sarcasm from you, but I don’t care, I want you to feel as free as I do right now. I didn’t know how I was going to pay for the Ibogaine, I just knew that I had to do it, so I put all my effort into finding a way. I would have done anything short of selling my grand fathers sax to get it. A way found me. He didn’t even like me at the time (my call) but somehow he knew it would change my life, not to mention it would shut my mother up for a while, (LOL). Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is, try and think positive, and con every mother fucker you can until you get what you need to do the Ibogaine. It sure helped me. Worry about the con later. You’ll deal with it in the trip.    Randy        PS maybe one of these days I’ll quit crying when I talk about my step father.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Finance
Date: March 31, 2005 at 4:43:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ron, I told you months ago that I paid for my Ibogaine. I lied, I didn’t. I didn’t think it was any of your business who paid for my treatment. My step father paid for it. He’s not rich, he just loves my mother more than life itself. At the time, him and I didn’t get along very well, matter of fact after what he has experienced in his life I don’t think there was anything about mine that he respected. After watching me go thru the Ibogaine experience he found something to respect. This from a man who flew through the Pluesti raid 100 feet off the ground in a B 24 watching his friends burst into flames and hit the ground. My relationship with this man may just be one of the best things that has happened after Ibogaine. I finally found my father. I’m telling you this at the risk of sarcasm from you, but I don’t care, I want you to feel as free as I do right now. I didn’t know how I was going to pay for the Ibogaine, I just knew that I had to do it, so I put all my effort into finding a way. I would have done anything short of selling my grand fathers sax to get it. A way found me. He didn’t even like me at the time (my call) but somehow he knew it would change my life, not to mention it would shut my mother up for a while, (LOL). Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is, try and think positive, and con every mother fucker you can until you get what you need to do the Ibogaine. It sure helped me. Worry about the con later. You’ll deal with it in the trip.    Randy        PS maybe one of these days I’ll quit crying when I talk about my step father.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 31, 2005 at 4:03:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mamma, thanx for finding the page for me. I filled it out and sent it.     Randy

From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 31, 2005 at 2:06:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know if any one has smoked it, but it is edible. It isn’t
common because without the HCl (freebase is pure) it isn’t very
stable. After a year in sealed plastic, 25 mg/kg had the effect of
2 mg/kg of HCl.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:27:43 -0800 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 3/30/05 8:40:40 PM, slowone@hush.ai writes:

ALso ‘freebase’ is missing from the forms of ibogaine.

So who has freebased ibogaine.  At what doses and with what
effects?

Thanks

Howard

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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Funds for Ibo
Date: March 31, 2005 at 2:02:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Ron… I heartily agree with Jasen’s words to you.    As far as paying for ibo, I can tell you my first trip was priced at around $1000 and that was certainly a lot more than I had laying around anywhere.  I remember telling a friend that if someone told me that I was going to hand over a grand to basically a total stranger, in a strange place, and let them give me a substance that hardly anyone in the world had ever heard of – I couldn’t believe how ridiculous that sounded!

I guess I’m saying that if you just allow it into your head that YES you are drawn to ibogaine, and you are definitely going to do it at some point, even if you don’t know exactly when – well,  it’s going to happen for sure.  And for me, I just made up my mind that I would borrow the money somewhere, and just making up my mind like that seemed to cause the money to show up without it being such a stretch.  Plus, once you’re thru the first experience, you can more easily work with it again at a greatly reduced stretch.

C’mon and give it a try. I know you can get the dough together, and if I ever met someone I think could really benefit from Iboga – it’s definitely you!  Not to offend, but you just seem “blanketed” in such incredible negativity and hopelessness, and ibo will rip that away at least for a bit.  It did for me…

Best and luck to you,  Sandy
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 10:27:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/30/05 8:40:40 PM, slowone@hush.ai writes:

ALso ‘freebase’ is missing from the forms of ibogaine.

So who has freebased ibogaine.  At what doses and with what effects?

Thanks

Howard

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A MAN.to j from ron OT
Date: March 30, 2005 at 9:56:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks for the personal note. be cool bro, don’t lose it, ron
—– Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A MAN.

Hello Ron,

Mate,…I feel the first step is to stop thinking of yourself as a whiner
and slow. If you played the piano a few times in your life that does
not make you a pianist.

As you know, what you think and what comes from your mouth is
very very powerful.
I assume you are in the US, if you are, then it will not cost you 10
grand as there are people there that can help for much much less
than that.

The problem is you would still have to come up with a few thousand.
What I did was to go to  banks and applied for a loan until I got one.

I understand this does not help much however this is what I did, had
I not recieved the loan I could not have done this yet.

love you bro’
Jasen.

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogaineto jason ) (OT) from ron
Date: March 30, 2005 at 9:53:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks for the thought, wishing you continued success, it’s sneaky, make you do stuff you don’t want to (the addiction , dependancy, compulsion or whatever the hell it is i have) hope your bug wasn’t as bad as mine… i dangle by that thread, getting highs’s not an option cause the don’t make enough of the stuff, can’t stay straight  withrx meds, but i try. unfortunately(whine.. for the self rightuous locked solid in sobriety)  no kidding, thanks for the kind thought.  hey, most of us or at least this dinosaur shared periodically. never hear that concept expressed on the list. i suspect many of us have valuable skills to barter with among ourselves and some have money and some have mucho dinero. i’ll defer to the scholars on spiritual growth. my understanding is that there must be a common path, a common goal and a group of people following it for enlightenment. but i whine on…..to no good end..i’ll have to do it the old fashion way. seems there’s several distinct tribes on the list, close knit, wary of strangers with different agendas. many having done ibo but still doing other drugs,some sober, some ibo chic and a few good ones. myself, i have contributed nothing
so i must fit in somewhere.  i’d hate to move back to the village just to really be part of this.  i hope those seeking or who have already achieved sobriety find it or hang onto it.  it was the most precious thing i ever lost.  my best efforts got me access to a computer and this list, hope i can make the next leap and still keep the computer. i can pawn my micro wave, 19 in. tv and 8 track, that’s a decent down payment isn’t it? thanks to the good folks i’ve met here and those who have read my rants and whines. perhaps i’ll get it right next time i sign on for the list. peace to all and your solid sobriety.ron
—– Original Message —–
From: Jasen Chamoun
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

Hey Ron

You were most definatley invited. I for one would miss hearing from you if you chose to punch out.

love,
Jasen.

—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$

i feel like the list is a party and i wasn’t invited. perhaps i didn’t fly high and far enough or destiny has something more sinister than ibo dreams to take me away. i can stay in this rarified air or punch out.  maybe if i whine enough  some benefactor will throw me an ibo bone.. wishing all continued success and peace in their lives. ron—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$

Hi

Count me in if you win the lottery and I will do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A MAN.
Date: March 30, 2005 at 8:53:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello Ron,

Mate,…I feel the first step is to stop thinking of yourself as a whiner
and slow. If you played the piano a few times in your life that does
not make you a pianist.

As you know, what you think and what comes from your mouth is
very very powerful.
I assume you are in the US, if you are, then it will not cost you 10
grand as there are people there that can help for much much less
than that.

The problem is you would still have to come up with a few thousand.
What I did was to go to  banks and applied for a loan until I got one.

I understand this does not help much however this is what I did, had
I not recieved the loan I could not have done this yet.

love you bro’
Jasen.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 8:51:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ok, done. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity and privilage of sharing somewhat of my feelings, even if they’re a bit vague really I suppose. Not sure I’d want at this point to be more informative than I was, at this moment in time, but I do hope it helps at least a little bit, my filling out your form Marco

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Jeff Gallop” <jeffgallop@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

Preston my LES friend…
The questionnaire would certainly take less time to fill out that
those two replies took. It is 17 ?’s besides the optional personal
info ones (5 or so which I skipped) answered by checking boxes not
writing replies (which with your talent and thought process i know
would take some time).
So Freak Free knowing that the Ibo angels have blessed you and this
would be a great chance to give some Ibo love back to the
world.Something we very rarely get the  opportunity to do.
hope to see you and V sooner than later…maybe Sunday April 10th for
afro celtic music of Baka who are from the Cameron near Gabon and
certainly reflect some Ibo vibe big time…More on this later this
week.
Glad you are keeping busy
with Ibo Angel Love to you and all on the list
Jeff (back at work and lovin’ it!)

h
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:09:03 -0500, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/<

And I must say, I apologize but haven’t had much time to do much of ANYTHING
lately, certainly not fill out any questionnaires. I’d be more than happy to
do so, but when I get the opportunity and am not so overloaded with
deadlines, call times, etc, etc.
So please remind me again at some point in about a month’s time and I’d
be MUCH MORE than happy to take time to fill in your questionnair, but at
this point, I’ve been deleting most email unread, completely, no matter what
list it’s from- so it’s even possible I missed your request, personally.
So again, please remind me again in about a month, and I’d be more than
happy to help out.
Actually, I went and looked for the questionnaire just now, couldn’t
find it, then found your direct link to it, took a look and really, I’m
sorry, I don’t have the time right now- no offense, and I honestly will be
happy to do it at a later date (I can’t believe I’m feeling guilty about
this- silly me) but not right now- it’ll take my stopping and really
thinking deeply and giving answers about stuff I can’t stop to think about
right now due to all the other much more necessary and important (to me at
the moment) questions and commentary and stuff.
Send another reminder down the road, and I’ll be more than happy to fill
it out- when I have the time, and I simply can’t make it right now. (Of
course, in the time it took this email, I coulda answered at least one or
two of your questions, but certainly not all of them.)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Marko” <marko@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

>I must say I’m VERY disapointed.
>
> On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any > form
> to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/
>
> 2 (two) people from the list did it (thank you both!), others didn’t.
>
> I *know* that I could get several hundreds entries if all of you did > your
> part… but you didn’t. Why you didn’t? Prolly because you don’t care. > You
> had your dose, now you feel that you are above all and everything, that
> you’re worth more than the rest of humanity. And, filling out
> questionnaires doesn’t apply to you.
>
> That’s how it looks.
>
> But, did you consider that some of us want to do MORE than just have > our
> IBO dose and feel above the rest because of it? That some of us really
> want to bring IBO to state-paid medical environment? And, that we also
> need your small input to make a step forward?? Do you remember that > “every
> vote counts”, not only during elections, but in everyday life???
>
> http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php is a direct > link
> to the questionnaire – if someone feels like filling it out  and > sending
> it….
>
> Your non-cooperation is very depressing. It makes me feel like stop
> supplying IBO; and directing all inquieries to this list “ask *them* > why
> they got their IBO, and why you can’t get it!!!”
>
> Perhaps more people will turn to whipping. Themselves, or maybe even
> you…
>
> Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
> discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
> questionnaire instead.
>
> Marko
>
>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> [%]
>
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 8:40:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Congratulations to Marko for gathering this info, and thanks for
the experiences.

In one question:

“Who was taking care of you during the experience:”

the choice ‘no one’ is missing. Not to advocate this option, but
that’s how I do low doses.

ALso ‘freebase’ is missing from the forms of ibogaine.

‘experience include’ – might be worth adding an option for
‘recovery’ of traumatic memories (including apparent memories later
considered to be symbolic).

I put in a few entries, I suggest that people use a pseudonym if
they don’t want to give a name, so that multiple experiences can be
correlated.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434

Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 7:35:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

YEr right Jeff, I hadn’t actually seen how short it was when answering- I was more surprised by Marco’s apparent anger- plus, I’m not even sure I’d seen his first request, so was even more surprised. I allowed myself once again to fire off a reply I wish I coulda bit back in and not sent in the first place, but I did send it and I apologize Marco- I’ll fill in your questionaire for you very soon.
Thanks for shaking me gently Jeff.
;-))
Glad to hear from you and in such a positive mood, with such positive light veritably shining from your email.

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: “Jeff Gallop” <jeffgallop@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

Preston my LES friend…
The questionnaire would certainly take less time to fill out that
those two replies took. It is 17 ?’s besides the optional personal
info ones (5 or so which I skipped) answered by checking boxes not
writing replies (which with your talent and thought process i know
would take some time).
So Freak Free knowing that the Ibo angels have blessed you and this
would be a great chance to give some Ibo love back to the
world.Something we very rarely get the  opportunity to do.
hope to see you and V sooner than later…maybe Sunday April 10th for
afro celtic music of Baka who are from the Cameron near Gabon and
certainly reflect some Ibo vibe big time…More on this later this
week.
Glad you are keeping busy
with Ibo Angel Love to you and all on the list
Jeff (back at work and lovin’ it!)

h
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:09:03 -0500, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/<

And I must say, I apologize but haven’t had much time to do much of ANYTHING
lately, certainly not fill out any questionnaires. I’d be more than happy to
do so, but when I get the opportunity and am not so overloaded with
deadlines, call times, etc, etc.
So please remind me again at some point in about a month’s time and I’d
be MUCH MORE than happy to take time to fill in your questionnair, but at
this point, I’ve been deleting most email unread, completely, no matter what
list it’s from- so it’s even possible I missed your request, personally.
So again, please remind me again in about a month, and I’d be more than
happy to help out.
Actually, I went and looked for the questionnaire just now, couldn’t
find it, then found your direct link to it, took a look and really, I’m
sorry, I don’t have the time right now- no offense, and I honestly will be
happy to do it at a later date (I can’t believe I’m feeling guilty about
this- silly me) but not right now- it’ll take my stopping and really
thinking deeply and giving answers about stuff I can’t stop to think about
right now due to all the other much more necessary and important (to me at
the moment) questions and commentary and stuff.
Send another reminder down the road, and I’ll be more than happy to fill
it out- when I have the time, and I simply can’t make it right now. (Of
course, in the time it took this email, I coulda answered at least one or
two of your questions, but certainly not all of them.)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Marko” <marko@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

>I must say I’m VERY disapointed.
>
> On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any > form
> to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/
>
> 2 (two) people from the list did it (thank you both!), others didn’t.
>
> I *know* that I could get several hundreds entries if all of you did > your
> part… but you didn’t. Why you didn’t? Prolly because you don’t care. > You
> had your dose, now you feel that you are above all and everything, that
> you’re worth more than the rest of humanity. And, filling out
> questionnaires doesn’t apply to you.
>
> That’s how it looks.
>
> But, did you consider that some of us want to do MORE than just have > our
> IBO dose and feel above the rest because of it? That some of us really
> want to bring IBO to state-paid medical environment? And, that we also
> need your small input to make a step forward?? Do you remember that > “every
> vote counts”, not only during elections, but in everyday life???
>
> http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php is a direct > link
> to the questionnaire – if someone feels like filling it out  and > sending
> it….
>
> Your non-cooperation is very depressing. It makes me feel like stop
> supplying IBO; and directing all inquieries to this list “ask *them* > why
> they got their IBO, and why you can’t get it!!!”
>
> Perhaps more people will turn to whipping. Themselves, or maybe even
> you…
>
> Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
> discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
> questionnaire instead.
>
> Marko
>
>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> [%]
>
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 7:24:55 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

financial affairs are pvt., but we discuss histories of law breaking on the list, glamorize heroin(yea, i enjoyed pulling water out of a toilet tank to get off in the day), brag about the amount of meth we took…that’s good credentials…i’m a whiner and slow, tell me, how do you get the bread in the the middle of battle to go do ibo? children of rich parents need not respond…just old fashioned druggies that are tired and manged to pull it together w/o robbing the savings and loan. not trying to pry, if it’s an elite club where people can fly thousands of miles and drop 10 grand, that’s cool, i lose.  but if someone has some insight into this, please let me know cuz i’m slow and close to poor. miss a paycheck and i’m on the curb. ron, wishing all the best.thanking viable responses in advance. i’ve had several inquiries off list about this.
—– Original Message —– From: “Jeff Gallop” <jeffgallop@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

Preston my LES friend…
The questionnaire would certainly take less time to fill out that
those two replies took. It is 17 ?’s besides the optional personal
info ones (5 or so which I skipped) answered by checking boxes not
writing replies (which with your talent and thought process i know
would take some time).
So Freak Free knowing that the Ibo angels have blessed you and this
would be a great chance to give some Ibo love back to the
world.Something we very rarely get the  opportunity to do.
hope to see you and V sooner than later…maybe Sunday April 10th for
afro celtic music of Baka who are from the Cameron near Gabon and
certainly reflect some Ibo vibe big time…More on this later this
week.
Glad you are keeping busy
with Ibo Angel Love to you and all on the list
Jeff (back at work and lovin’ it!)

h
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:09:03 -0500, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/<

And I must say, I apologize but haven’t had much time to do much of ANYTHING
lately, certainly not fill out any questionnaires. I’d be more than happy to
do so, but when I get the opportunity and am not so overloaded with
deadlines, call times, etc, etc.
So please remind me again at some point in about a month’s time and I’d
be MUCH MORE than happy to take time to fill in your questionnair, but at
this point, I’ve been deleting most email unread, completely, no matter what
list it’s from- so it’s even possible I missed your request, personally.
So again, please remind me again in about a month, and I’d be more than
happy to help out.
Actually, I went and looked for the questionnaire just now, couldn’t
find it, then found your direct link to it, took a look and really, I’m
sorry, I don’t have the time right now- no offense, and I honestly will be
happy to do it at a later date (I can’t believe I’m feeling guilty about
this- silly me) but not right now- it’ll take my stopping and really
thinking deeply and giving answers about stuff I can’t stop to think about
right now due to all the other much more necessary and important (to me at
the moment) questions and commentary and stuff.
Send another reminder down the road, and I’ll be more than happy to fill
it out- when I have the time, and I simply can’t make it right now. (Of
course, in the time it took this email, I coulda answered at least one or
two of your questions, but certainly not all of them.)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Marko” <marko@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

>I must say I’m VERY disapointed.
>
> On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any > form
> to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/
>
> 2 (two) people from the list did it (thank you both!), others didn’t.
>
> I *know* that I could get several hundreds entries if all of you did > your
> part… but you didn’t. Why you didn’t? Prolly because you don’t care. > You
> had your dose, now you feel that you are above all and everything, that
> you’re worth more than the rest of humanity. And, filling out
> questionnaires doesn’t apply to you.
>
> That’s how it looks.
>
> But, did you consider that some of us want to do MORE than just have > our
> IBO dose and feel above the rest because of it? That some of us really
> want to bring IBO to state-paid medical environment? And, that we also
> need your small input to make a step forward?? Do you remember that > “every
> vote counts”, not only during elections, but in everyday life???
>
> http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php is a direct > link
> to the questionnaire – if someone feels like filling it out  and > sending
> it….
>
> Your non-cooperation is very depressing. It makes me feel like stop
> supplying IBO; and directing all inquieries to this list “ask *them* > why
> they got their IBO, and why you can’t get it!!!”
>
> Perhaps more people will turn to whipping. Themselves, or maybe even
> you…
>
> Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
> discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
> questionnaire instead.
>
> Marko
>
>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> [%]
>
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Jeff Gallop <jeffgallop@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 5:50:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston my LES friend…
The questionnaire would certainly take less time to fill out that
those two replies took. It is 17 ?’s besides the optional personal
info ones (5 or so which I skipped) answered by checking boxes not
writing replies (which with your talent and thought process i know
would take some time).
So Freak Free knowing that the Ibo angels have blessed you and this
would be a great chance to give some Ibo love back to the
world.Something we very rarely get the  opportunity to do.
hope to see you and V sooner than later…maybe Sunday April 10th for
afro celtic music of Baka who are from the Cameron near Gabon and
certainly reflect some Ibo vibe big time…More on this later this
week.
Glad you are keeping busy
with Ibo Angel Love to you and all on the list
Jeff (back at work and lovin’ it!)

h
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:09:03 -0500, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/<

And I must say, I apologize but haven’t had much time to do much of ANYTHING
lately, certainly not fill out any questionnaires. I’d be more than happy to
do so, but when I get the opportunity and am not so overloaded with
deadlines, call times, etc, etc.
So please remind me again at some point in about a month’s time and I’d
be MUCH MORE than happy to take time to fill in your questionnair, but at
this point, I’ve been deleting most email unread, completely, no matter what
list it’s from- so it’s even possible I missed your request, personally.
So again, please remind me again in about a month, and I’d be more than
happy to help out.
Actually, I went and looked for the questionnaire just now, couldn’t
find it, then found your direct link to it, took a look and really, I’m
sorry, I don’t have the time right now- no offense, and I honestly will be
happy to do it at a later date (I can’t believe I’m feeling guilty about
this- silly me) but not right now- it’ll take my stopping and really
thinking deeply and giving answers about stuff I can’t stop to think about
right now due to all the other much more necessary and important (to me at
the moment) questions and commentary and stuff.
Send another reminder down the road, and I’ll be more than happy to fill
it out- when I have the time, and I simply can’t make it right now. (Of
course, in the time it took this email, I coulda answered at least one or
two of your questions, but certainly not all of them.)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Marko” <marko@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/

2 (two) people from the list did it (thank you both!), others didn’t.

I *know* that I could get several hundreds entries if all of you did your
part… but you didn’t. Why you didn’t? Prolly because you don’t care. You
had your dose, now you feel that you are above all and everything, that
you’re worth more than the rest of humanity. And, filling out
questionnaires doesn’t apply to you.

That’s how it looks.

But, did you consider that some of us want to do MORE than just have our
IBO dose and feel above the rest because of it? That some of us really
want to bring IBO to state-paid medical environment? And, that we also
need your small input to make a step forward?? Do you remember that “every
vote counts”, not only during elections, but in everyday life???

http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php is a direct link
to the questionnaire – if someone feels like filling it out  and sending
it….

Your non-cooperation is very depressing. It makes me feel like stop
supplying IBO; and directing all inquieries to this list “ask *them* why
they got their IBO, and why you can’t get it!!!”

Perhaps more people will turn to whipping. Themselves, or maybe even
you…

Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
questionnaire instead.

Marko

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/

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/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 4:42:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Leo Zeff, The Secret Chief, ibogaine
Date: March 30, 2005 at 3:25:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In reviewing some history of the west coast ibogaine scene in the US I turned
to Myron Stolaroff’s book, The Secret Chief, a dialog with and about Leo
Zeff, a wonderful person and experienced ibogaine therapist.  First let me present
two urls from MAPS.

I think this is a wonderful gift to this list and one that I can pass to you
from Leo Zeff and his gift to all of us.

Howard

http://www.maps.org/pubs/bookflier.pdf
scroll down till you come to The Secret Chief.

An e-version of the book is available from,
http://www.maps.org/secretchief/sctoc.html

Among the statements Zeff makez concerning ibogaine:
http://www.maps.org/secretchief/scchpt1.html

There’s another incident, too, an experience in my home that I had that was a
very important one. I’ve had migraines all my life. The earliest memory I
have of myself is lying on the front porch of my house at home while they’re
paving the street and the tar was there as they were paving the street and bricks
as they used in those days and the tar smell was making my head ache so bad.
That’s the earliest experience I had. About three, maybe four years old. The
headaches were extremely severe and painful. Pretty bad constantly.

One day I was tripping in a group trip. I was having an ibogaine trip. Do you
know ibogaine? It’s a fantastic medicine, really. I think I mentioned that we
use the word medicine rather than drugs.

You get the answers to all your questions on this trip, on the ibogaine trip.
Everything is clearly stated, any questions you have. You go into the trip
with questions if you want to. You ask the question but you don’t try to answer
it. The answer comes to you. This time I decided to ask Mr. Ibogaine – we call
him, the person from whom you get the answer, Mr. Ibogaine. Anyway, my
question was, what is this with these headaches that I have, that I suffer from?
That’s all. I was really turned on and deep in a trip and the question occurred
to me. Okay, ask it. “What is it with these headaches?”

The answer came. I’ve had a number of ibogaine trips and the answer always
comes. You may not recognize it for what it is, it may be very ambiguous or
somewhat like that, but you’ve got the answer for sure, you’d better hang onto it.
The answer came back and said, “You’re going to die.” I looked, and I said,
“What?” That’s what it said. I know it said it. I looked around it, and it said
I’m going to die.

You don’t get frightened with an experience like that. You just take
whatever’s handed to you and look at it, handle it. So I looked at it, and I looked at
it and I said, “Jesus Christ, what does that mean, I’m going to die? Well it
means you’re going to die, that’s all it means.” Die when? Of course I knew
I’m going to die some day. I know that, that’s nothing new. This isn’t the kind
of “You’re going to die” that Mr. Ibogaine was saying.

I said, “Well, gee, this is something between me and Mr. Ibogaine. It is not
something that I can tell anybody about.” On the report of my trip – we all
gathered the next morning and told what happened on our trip – on the report of
my trip, I could not say anything to them about Mr. Ibogaine’s saying I’m
going to die, since that would scare the hell out of everybody. They wouldn’t know
how to take it.

I didn’t know how to take it. I never did know. I kept reflecting on it for
quite some time. And it was about a month later. The only relief I could ever
get for migraine was codeine. And I took one helluva lot of codeine. I was
certainly habituated, but not addicted because there were times I wanted to quit
taking it, and I decided I was going to quit. I did quit; I quit for weeks, and
I could do it! Without too much trouble. And my migraines would be easier on
me even then. But then I’d get back on it again. I was taking as many as four
to eight half- grain tablets of codeine every day, so that I could function
without the pain.

A month after this trip I took another trip. I don’t remember what the
material was. It wasn’t ibogaine. I was with somebody, I can’t remember who it was,
I don’t even remember if it was a man or a woman. I took something, I think it
was acid, and had my trip. As I was coming down from the trip, as most of the
people liked to do and as I always wanted to do, I walked down to the water.
I walked along the water, which was a very important place for me. That’s
where I had my greatest conversations with God. That was really a very important
thing to me. I remember walking along, talking to God, and coming back up to
the house. As I was coming up the hill something flashed in my mind, something
that was a result of the space I was in from the trip. What flashed in my mind
was a phrase.

I know that when lots of times you take an ibogaine trip you get something
that’s enigmatic, you don’t know what it is, and later on you’ll get something
that fills it in. Completes the sentence is really what it does. It turns out
that “You’re going to die,” was part of a sentence. The second part of the
sentence flashed into my mind. “Unless you stop taking codeine.”

I rolled that one around and rolled it around and rolled it around and looked
at it. God-damn! How can I function, unless I take codeine? I just played
around with it a lot. Maybe I haven’t got the right message, or something like
that. Then I said, “No, Jacob, don’t fuck around with this stuff. You know the
answer. You take it. You got the right message. Take it, just as you got it.
I’m going to die unless I stop taking codeine. Okay, I got the message. That’s
the truth, I know that’s the truth. So, what am I going to do about it? Am I
going to quit taking codeine? It doesn’t bother me to die. I’m going to die some
day. But – I’m not ready yet. I don’t want to, right now. Am I going to quit
taking codeine?”

And it flashed in my mind the answer, this statement. “Jacob, that’s the
wrong question. The question is not ‘Are you going to quit taking codeine?’ The
question is, ‘Have you quit taking codeine?'” The same thing that happened with
the cigarettes.

And I knew the answer. Right then and there I knew the answer. I had quit. I
had quit. For a long, long time. My migraines got less and less. Occasionally
they would get real strong, I would take some for a little while. But it was
over with. I was over taking it as I used to. Well as you can imagine, that was
a very spectacular thing in my life.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$
Date: March 30, 2005 at 12:22:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

point of clarification:  providers risk their asses in the us.  they work and perform a good service.  i did not mean to suggest they are not honorable, dedicated people who wish to share this ibo experience that eludes me.  i pay everyone who works for me, docs, plumbers, mechanics..i do not expect a free ride, apologize if it came across that way and certainly think facilitating a life changing event is worth something.  all providers i have spoken to have been compassionate and have a passion for their work. there’s no free lunch…my opinions are just that and change with the tides b/c my head’s not screwed on straight.  all the more reason for ibo , maybe.  to all on the list doing this for others, no malice intended nor was i denigrating you for charging. hell, i don’t work for free., ron, hoping to someday make it, regardless of the cost.

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 30, 2005 at 12:04:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko, I tried to go the link you sent and had no luck finding it. Again. I’m not very computer savvy so I’ve got someone trying to help me find the page so I can fill it out. I have time today if I can find where to go. I have been almost non stop for the last month and today I have time to relax. Finally                       Randy

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: donna!! – Ron – Spiritual Paths
Date: March 30, 2005 at 10:53:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m trying but i can’t rest on ibo, no money, no source, but you’re right. the way i live is not fun nor has it been for years.
all under the watchful eyes of docs.  i found a very compassionate one but he is 1000 miles from where i live.  hard to see him regularly when trying to hold a job and caring for a terminally ill parent.  but we all have problems and i am quite sure others on this list have it much worse. i wish i could get to him right now, he’s one of the most knowledgable i’ve ever met. addiction docs in my town throw you into detox hell and will not listen to or even consider treament plans outside what their manuals say.  and boy do they charge you.  one guy hit me for 300 us  for 15 minutes just to tell me he wouldn’t help me.  shame they can’t be like the guy who practices so far away. love to all, ron
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! – Ron – Spiritual Paths

In a message dated 30/03/2005 13:01:42 GMT Standard Time, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
i’m a lurker wanting to be happy in my skin and sober…no helpers, just straight.
i’ve got about 8 yrs of college and a few degrees which have never gotten me laid.  i think a spiritual path is an empiracal route ,  otherwords , it can only be proved by doing it or watching others who have done it.  the multidisciplinary approach to recovery obscures this because one can’t tell what cause the result.  of course, hip is tolerance.  ron, looking for a peaceful path with serious doubts of finding it—– Original Message

I think Ron maybe its time to stop watching others (I mean me and you) make the decision and just do it.  I think that what we both need to do.

Take care love donnaxxxxxxxxx

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! – Ron – Spiritual Paths
Date: March 30, 2005 at 10:43:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lee:
Point well made.  I am not a scientist and lack the objectivity in some areas outside my profession. i was sober for a long time before i let myself get rx’d into a box. i approached my sobriety from the 12 step  programs, viewing my problems as stemming from the disease of addiction.  I faithfully followed the steps and was told that everything would eventually be ok if i stayed on that spiritual path.  my guide was a pathologist who was very gifted.  i blindly followed the path on his faith and everything worked out ok.  some very wonderful things happened to me that i can contribute to what i was doing.  i was also able to share this with others like me and the same thing happened to them, which my sponsor told me it would.  i can’t get back on that path and view this ibo thing as a vehicle to jump start me to that or a similar path.  i only express my opinions and observations on what i saw happen.  hardly a scientific study..i should have qualified my remarks.  thanks for the well thought response.  i hope and pray i can get back on a path as it is a journey.  my worth on earth is only the sum of my good deeds to others. may we both find the peace and harmony that eludes me.  i’m in a fix that i may or may not get out of alive.  i hope everyone makes it who wants it. -addiction or dependancy or whatever the heck it is is a life threatening thing.  it has caused me and my family and countless others i know so much misery and pain.  i’d rather die than live much longer in this hell i’ve gotten myself into.  IMHO there is nothing romantic, hip, cool in addiction..for me, it’s a killer…i can’t count the number of people on 2 hands that i knew that died as a direct result of it or are spending the rest of their lives in prison.  i’m wery and tired and hang by a thread. love to all, ron, this is all my opinion which means very little.—-
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! – Ron – Spiritual Paths

Hi Ron,

I just wanted to respond to what you said about the spiritual path being an empirical route which I find to be a very ascute and spiritual observation.

The problem I have with the academic view of recovery is this. It is purely scientific (it seems to me) and does not understand the interaction of the spiritual with the physical.

As an example:

I am now about to deal with an issue which happened to me when i was very young and because of which I have suffered from particular fears which have affected the way I lived my life and related to others.

If I had gone to a shrink with this problem, he could not imo have healed it as an isolated issue as it is interconnected to other issues which spiritually have to be healed first in order to fulfill properly one’s path. BTW I only became aware of the problem through eboga – it was completely blanked. So I would not have known the reasons had I gone in the first place to a shrink for my problem.

I have prior to now deeply healed my sexuality among other things. Why was it that my sexuality was healed before this issue I am referring to come into full focus for healing? The answer of course is that there is an spiritual order to healing and the order determines the way in which your ego makes life choices prior to the healing of the issue.

If this issue had been healed before my sexuality I might have found life sufficiently tolerable as to not have sought the healing in the first place of other issues or I may not have been desperate enough to change homes and start a new life. i.e. the isses determine the life actions our ego mind takes and the order of the resolving of the issues plays a very important role in our development and growing awareness. Hence, the spirit is in a way manipulating the ego.

All of this of course indicates a path and so the healing of issues are linked to the point we are on the path and where we have to go.

None of which comes into scientific healing to the best of my knowledge.

Hence, while there may also be a psychological order to healing. It also happens that the spiritual order is in sync with this in my experience. Two different realities which operate differently, are reflecting one another perfectly, allowing one viewpoint to be ignorant of the other. Two realities which appear unrelated and which allows the atheist to reaffirm their world view as and when they wish to do so, as they do not need to look to the spiritual to construct their arguments.

The spiritual realm is very clever and leaves its discovery to those brave enough to have some faith to begin with and a lot of humility to end with imo. It does not yield itself to pure atheist scientific enquiry as that would be to give spiritual understanding to those who were not spiritual in their intention.

As you say:

i think a spiritual path is an empiracal route ,  otherwords , it can only be proved by doing it or watching others who have done it.  the multidisciplinary approach to recovery obscures this because one can’t tell what cause the result.

With love,

Lee

Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net> wrote:
i’m a lurker wanting to be happy in my skin and sober…no helpers, just straight.
i’ve got about 8 yrs of college and a few degrees which have never gotten me laid.  i think a spiritual path is an empiracal route ,  otherwords , it can only be proved by doing it or watching others who have done it.  the multidisciplinary approach to recovery obscures this because one can’t tell what cause the result.  of course, hip is tolerance.  ron, looking for a peaceful path with serious doubts of finding it—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!

Peter,

You state:
‘dependency’ is a complex learned behaviour.
As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.

It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are) anti-intellectual also.

Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I read that as a soul issue – psycho/spirituality. You read it as a psychological one.

IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a psychological issue (complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone. It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided to distance yourself from.

I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor will you even consider these possibilities.

That’s all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying the interpretation others use for what works for them?

Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with a drugs for all paradise?

I respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude in your viewpoints and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.

With love,

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Dear Peter and Nick,

Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the communications
between yourself and Peter.

On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug regulatory
development issues. We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world. We had to use
specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in treating a medical
condition. After all that is what medications are for.

That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social medical
insurance?

Thanks again to both of you.

Howard

In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

>RE: dissing a Substance!!
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
> To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
> Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
>
>
> Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
>complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s
>life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than
>wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when
>crossing the street
>
>
> It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
>the
>ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
> Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
>for
>whom it was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
>his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who
>want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
> Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time,
>is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road,
>as I
>said often before.
>
>
> I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our
>voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.
>
>
> Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole
>ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have
>found that the rite the passage from one type of lifestyle to another
>is
>sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe
>it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well,
>but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When it serves, it serves,
>and
>if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we
>will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
>think
>you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because
>we
>think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.
>
>
> But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided
>at
>all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they
>are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential
>ones, but that is a whole other story.
> pc
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and
>so
>I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or
>”junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad
>feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see
>where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that
>one
>is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically
>cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the
>individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone
>is
>coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
>therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
> As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
>helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they
>cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all
>this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
>stop.
>There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a
>bit
>of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell
>the
>person to stop if they no longer want to use.
>
> Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine.
>Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it
>works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
>psychological than neurochemical.
> Thank you for an interesting discussion
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially,
>have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical
>aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree
>that
>they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
>propose ibogaine should be promoted?
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>–
>————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
>
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! – Ron – Spiritual Paths
Date: March 30, 2005 at 8:29:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 30/03/2005 13:01:42 GMT Standard Time, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
i’m a lurker wanting to be happy in my skin and sober…no helpers, just straight.
i’ve got about 8 yrs of college and a few degrees which have never gotten me laid.  i think a spiritual path is an empiracal route ,  otherwords , it can only be proved by doing it or watching others who have done it.  the multidisciplinary approach to recovery obscures this because one can’t tell what cause the result.  of course, hip is tolerance.  ron, looking for a peaceful path with serious doubts of finding it—– Original Message

I think Ron maybe its time to stop watching others (I mean me and you) make the decision and just do it.  I think that what we both need to do.

Take care love donnaxxxxxxxxx

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$
Date: March 30, 2005 at 8:27:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ron

Start your own party!! or better still join in with the others, how are you???? did you tell me last time we spoke you were going to see the doctor???? I hope you are well.
love donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 30, 2005 at 8:24:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Jasen

The wise one you are always right, hope you are ok and had a great easter I am in the garden its pouring with rain doing an easter egg hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
love donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! – Ron – Spiritual Paths
Date: March 30, 2005 at 7:00:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ron,

I just wanted to respond to what you said about the spiritual path being an empirical route which I find to be a very ascute and spiritual observation.

The problem I have with the academic view of recovery is this. It is purely scientific (it seems to me) and does not understand the interaction of the spiritual with the physical.

As an example:

I am now about to deal with an issue which happened to me when i was very young and because of which I have suffered from particular fears which have affected the way I lived my life and related to others.

If I had gone to a shrink with this problem, he could not imo have healed it as an isolated issue as it is interconnected to other issues which spiritually have to be healed first in order to fulfill properly one’s path. BTW I only became aware of the problem through eboga – it was completely blanked. So I would not have known the reasons had I gone in the first place to a shrink for my problem.

I have prior to now deeply healed my sexuality among other things. Why was it that my sexuality was healed before this issue I am referring to come into full focus for healing? The answer of course is that there is an spiritual order to healing and the order determines the way in which your ego makes life choices prior to the healing of the issue.

If this issue had been healed before my sexuality I might have found life sufficiently tolerable as to not have sought the healing in the first place of other issues or I may not have been desperate enough to change homes and start a new life. i.e. the isses determine the life actions our ego mind takes and the order of the resolving of the issues plays a very important role in our development and growing awareness. Hence, the spirit is in a way manipulating the ego.

All of this of course indicates a path and so the healing of issues are linked to the point we are on the path and where we have to go.

None of which comes into scientific healing to the best of my knowledge.

Hence, while there may also be a psychological order to healing. It also happens that the spiritual order is in sync with this in my experience. Two different realities which operate differently, are reflecting one another perfectly, allowing one viewpoint to be ignorant of the other. Two realities which appear unrelated and which allows the atheist to reaffirm their world view as and when they wish to do so, as they do not need to look to the spiritual to construct their arguments.

The spiritual realm is very clever and leaves its discovery to those brave enough to have some faith to begin with and a lot of humility to end with imo. It does not yield itself to pure atheist scientific enquiry as that would be to give spiritual understanding to those who were not spiritual in their intention.

As you say:

i think a spiritual path is an empiracal route ,  otherwords , it can only be proved by doing it or watching others who have done it.  the multidisciplinary approach to recovery obscures this because one can’t tell what cause the result.

With love,

Lee

Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net> wrote:
i’m a lurker wanting to be happy in my skin and sober…no helpers, just straight.
i’ve got about 8 yrs of college and a few degrees which have never gotten me laid.  i think a spiritual path is an empiracal route ,  otherwords , it can only be proved by doing it or watching others who have done it.  the multidisciplinary approach to recovery obscures this because one can’t tell what cause the result.  of course, hip is tolerance.  ron, looking for a peaceful path with serious doubts of finding it—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!

Peter,

You state:
‘dependency’ is a complex learned behaviour.
As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.

It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are) anti-intellectual also.

Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I read that as a soul issue – psycho/spirituality. You read it as a psychological one.

IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a psychological issue (complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone. It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided to distance yourself from.

I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor will you even consider these possibilities.

That’s all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying the interpretation others use for what works for them?

Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with a drugs for all paradise?

I respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude in your viewpoints and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.

With love,

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Dear Peter and Nick,

Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the communications
between yourself and Peter.

On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug regulatory
development issues. We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world. We had to use
specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in treating a medical
condition. After all that is what medications are for.

That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social medical
insurance?

Thanks again to both of you.

Howard

In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

>RE: dissing a Substance!!
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
> To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
> Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
>
>
> Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
>complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s
>life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than
>wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when
>crossing the street
>
>
> It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
>the
>ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
> Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
>for
>whom it was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
>his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who
>want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
> Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time,
>is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road,
>as I
>said often before.
>
>
> I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our
>voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.
>
>
> Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole
>ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have
>found that the rite the passage from one type of lifestyle to another
>is
>sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe
>it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well,
>but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When it serves, it serves,
>and
>if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we
>will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
>think
>you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because
>we
>think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.
>
>
> But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided
>at
>all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they
>are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential
>ones, but that is a whole other story.
> pc
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and
>so
>I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or
>”junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad
>feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see
>where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that
>one
>is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically
>cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the
>individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone
>is
>coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
>therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
> As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
>helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they
>cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all
>this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
>stop.
>There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a
>bit
>of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell
>the
>person to stop if they no longer want to use.
>
> Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine.
>Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it
>works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
>psychological than neurochemical.
> Thank you for an interesting discussion
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially,
>have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical
>aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree
>that
>they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
>propose ibogaine should be promoted?
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>–
>————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
>
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Date: March 29, 2005 at 11:26:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Ron

You were most definatley invited. I for one would miss hearing from you if you chose to punch out.

love,
Jasen.

—– Original Message —–
From: Ron Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$

i feel like the list is a party and i wasn’t invited. perhaps i didn’t fly high and far enough or destiny has something more sinister than ibo dreams to take me away. i can stay in this rarified air or punch out.  maybe if i whine enough  some benefactor will throw me an ibo bone.. wishing all continued success and peace in their lives. ron—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$

Hi

Count me in if you win the lottery and I will do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$
Date: March 29, 2005 at 10:16:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i feel like the list is a party and i wasn’t invited. perhaps i didn’t fly high and far enough or destiny has something more sinister than ibo dreams to take me away. i can stay in this rarified air or punch out.  maybe if i whine enough  some benefactor will throw me an ibo bone.. wishing all continued success and peace in their lives. ron—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$

Hi

Count me in if you win the lottery and I will do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: February ‘Addiction’ and related matters.
Date: March 29, 2005 at 10:13:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:59 PM
Subject: February ‘Addiction’ and related matters.

# Drug related deaths in New Mexico
# Causes of death in Texas methadone patients over a decade
# ‘HIV prevention’ without mention of needle services!
# Survey of (non-fatal) overdoses among treatment entrants.
# Advertising and schools prevention programs both ‘work’ on teenage drinking.
# ‘Addiction’ editorial policies questioned again.

Dear Colleagues,

As we have come to expect, this edition of Addiction has a wealth of informative articles, this month’s theme (or one of them) being injecting behaviour and its worst consequences, overdose and viral disease transmission.

We are given an insight into 5 years of overdose figures from America’s worst state for drug overdoses (150 per million annually, double the national average).  New Mexico saw a tripling of methadone prescription during the 5 years yet at the same time, methadone related deaths decreased from 23 to 15 per million per year.  We are told that the crude amount of methadone dispensed in the state increased from 5kg to 14kg and from 23g to 53g per registered patient annually (63mg to 145mg per day).  I was not clear if this included prescriptions for pain management.  The authors quote a similar finding from New York in which just over 10% of drug related deaths involved methadone (Bryant et al.).  Other studies from the UK and Perth, WA showed reduced death rates with increasing methadone prescription.

And this ‘message’ may be contrasted with another current report from nearby Texas [D&A Dependence 78 (2005) 73-81].  Maxwell and colleagues looked at causes of death in current methadone maintenance patients during a 9 year period, finding differences between an older group with chronic diseases and others who were more likely to die from acute events such as overdose or road trauma.  Of the 766, 20% died from liver disease, 18% from cardiovascular disease, 14% from overdose.  At death, patients had been on methadone for a mean period of 43 months (mean age 46 years) with an average dose of 77mg daily with 4 take-home doses weekly.  These authors make a call for on-site primary care facilities for dependency patients.

February Addiction has an item and supporting editorial on overdoses and their relation to other reported life events such as relationship problems, housing difficulties and bereavements in patients entering treatment or prison.  The researchers report some modest and non-surprising statistical associations of sorry social circumstances and non-fatal overdose.  Yet despite a lack of causation, there are calls from both the authors and editorialist on all community agencies to be alert to this problem in an effort to recognise it and act accordingly.  What exactly do they expect social programs to do for drug users which they do not do already? Relationship guidance counselling may have a distant benefit but nothing reduces overdoses like good dependency treatment and other harm reduction manoeuvres.

The accompanying editorial by Zador is confusingly titled: “Reducing non-fatal overdoses among heroin users as an all-of-society challenge”.  The research is from entrants to treatment so obviously none reported a fatal overdose.  Yet one might assume that measures aimed at overdose would be expected to address fatal as well as non-fatal events.  Dr Zador is a world expert on opiate overdose, yet she fails to mention the place of other more focussed and cost effective approaches.  France and Switzerland reduced overdoses dramatically in the 1990s using approaches which were then in some ways ‘novel’ (pharmacy buprenorphine, injecting rooms, heroin trials, high quality methadone treatment).  Could it be that some of these are less politically comfortable?  We would all support her calls for better housing, social programs, grief counselling, marital services, etc.  However, preventing overdose is just one small (unproven) reason for such programs, dwarfed by alcohol, domestic violence and other issues, as well as just plain humanity which needs no controlled studies.

I have already commented on the lack of general harm reduction measures in Sullivan’s item ‘Decreasing international HIV transmission: the role of expanding access to opioid agonist therapies for injection drug users’ (copy on request)

In a high-rating editorial page Griffith Edwards (whose December retirement announcement seems to have been premature) writes a flowery appeal for ‘commissioned editorials’ on alcohol policies around the world.  He explains how important and informative these pieces will be for readers, even though most remain unwritten.  This request for submissions would seem to indicate that these are NOT in fact ‘commissioned’ in the usual sense.

Sally Casswell has written a perceptive commentary on Ellickson et al ‘Does alcohol advertising promote adolescent drinking? Results from a longitudinal assessment’ (note a typo of 2004, for 2005 on the citation).  The study from South Dakota looked at teen-age drinking habits related to exposure to advertising on TV, supermarkets, etc, finding correlations which could be reversed with a schools education program.  Casswell makes the point that all such advertising should cease in the interests of public health, something which will may be very difficult to make happen in America.  It has already happened in certain jurisdictions, to their continuing benefit.

For their own reasons, the journal management choose to place this piece as a letter to the editor even though it is commenting on a research report in the same edition.  Polite requests from me on this editorial practice were greeted with a lecture from his office on their (unique it would seem) concept of the ‘letters’ pages.  Other journal editors I have spoken to have no doubt that letters to the editor should be confined to unsolicited readers’ correspondence.

Addiction’s paucity of genuine correspondence seems at odds with the ‘robust debate’ Professor Edwards claims to espouse.  Other expert commentary, while welcome, should always be cited as such.  And normal practice would have the original article captioned as having a commentary, editorial or critique elsewhere in the journal.  I would be interested in any other views on this issue from readers.

Shah N, Lathrop SL, Landen MG. Unintentional methadone-related overdose death in New Mexico (USA) and implications for surveillance, 1998-2002. Addiction (2005) 100; 2: 176-188

Maxwell JC, Pullum TW, Tannertc K. Deaths of clients in methadone treatment in Texas: 1994-2002. Drug and Alcohol Dependence 78 (2005) 73-81

Sullivan LE, Metzger DS, Fudala PJ, Fiellin DA. Decreasing international HIV transmission: the role of expanding access to opioid agonist therapies for injection drug users. Addiction (2005) 100;2:150-158

Neale J, Robertson M. Recent life problems and non-fatal overdose among heroin users entering treatment. Addiction (2005) 100; 2: 168-175

Ellickson P, Collins RL, Hambarsoomians K, McCaffrey DF.  Does alcohol advertising promote adolescent drinking? Results from a longitudinal assessment. Addiction (2005) 100; 2:235-246

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Author of: “Addict in the Family” http://www.csdp.org/addict/

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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ron
Date: March 29, 2005 at 10:06:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Ron,
Hope this finds you Good.  My bad for not listening
good and filling in the blanks with assumptions.
Hey do you have a Good Sponsor??  I’m not here to
make light of the reality of your situation, if it
came across that way I’m really sorry about that.

Maybe it’s corney, but know you aren’t alone in
this.  Feel free to e-mail me off list if you want.

A white Candle is lit in Dallas for you right Now.

Cheers,
jb

“a farmer doesn’t plow the soil by turning it over in
his mind”
http://ibogain.de
hopen, hoop hebben op, hoop, verwachting
espérance, espoir, espérer
Hoffnung
hoffen
&#949;&#955;&#960;&#943;&#948;&#945;,
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&#949;&#965;&#949;&#955;&#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#974;,
&#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#948;&#959;&#954;&#974;
sperare, speranza
querer e esperar
&#1085;&#1072;&#1076;&#1077;&#1103;&#1090;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103;,
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&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1091;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100;,
&#1091;&#1087;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077;
esperanza, posibilidad
esperar, tener esperanzas, confiar
esperar, tener esperanzas, confiar
förhoppning, förtröstan
hoppas
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 29, 2005 at 8:08:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Margo,

Why not get information from the all of it,  you will then have a clearer decision, a choice as to what rings true.

with love Jasen.

>Kiersten, if Effexor is working for you why do you want to get off of it?

>And have you try talking to a doctor about it. The problem with most addicts is

>that they try and do there own medical management instead of letting someone

>who  might just know what there doing take care of it for them and before you

>know it  they are back on the drugs that got them in trouble to began with.

>Seek help  from a professional not a bunch of addicts.

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 7:34:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi.  This exact “method” was suggested to me by a “Doctor” (so it must be good, right?)  I knew in a 12 step room.  Anyway, enough sarcasm, but he did have a good idea to me that’s similar to this endorphin stuff.  When I was really craving opiates he told me to ask my own doc to try low doses of naltrexone, (like 4 mgs) to stimulate production of endorphins.  He said to take it at night so as to not really experience the drop, and hopefully the next day or days it would increase my mood and lessen my craving.  Of course I asked my very conventional MD to try this and he said that that sounded like just so much “unknown experimentation.”  I gave up and relapsed.  Not blaming my relapse on him, mind you, but how much effort on his part would it’ve taken to let me try it?
I don’t know if there’s any sort of availability of naltrexone on the “black market,” but if there is, it would seem to work the same as those whuppins, and circumvent the violence?
Best, Sandy

>From: <slowone@hush.ai>

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises

>Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:00:11 -0800

>

>”Beatings will continue until morale improves.”

>

>I hate to be the one to say this, but it is conceivable that the

>endorphins released by pain – or its cessation – do indeed have a

>temporary, positive affect on mood. Like the person who cuts

>him/her self to feel control of (at least one component of) the

>pain they normally feel, some people may find a mundane physical

>pain a big enough distraction from whatever issues got them into

>painkillers in the first place that they can let go of painkillers

>more easily.

>

>Nick, would you be ok with this? I’m skeptical that this treatment

>could ever be administered in a truly clinical way.

>

>

>On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:24 -0800 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

> >Hi Preston,

> >

> >Why stop at drug use.  The technology would seem to be a deterrent

>

> >for

> >democratic principals as well, freedom of speech, etc.

> >

> >http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

> >

> >Howard

> >

> >In a message dated 3/28/05 8:27:58 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

> >

> >>you’ve got to be kidding, right?

> >>

> >>I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time

>

> >raises

> >>dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but

> >somehow I’m

> >>just not quite buying this one either.

> >>

> >>”Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!”

> >LOL, errrr,

> >>I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in

>

> >Manhattan,

> >>and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in

> >some “let’s

> >>beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

> >

> >

> >  /]=————————————————————–

>

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> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands:

> >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]

> >  \]=————————————————————–

>

> >——-=[/

>

>

>

>Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get

>secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

>

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>

>

>

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>

>

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From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 29, 2005 at 7:15:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/28/2005 7:39:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, gary@bluemooncapital.com writes:
ARE YOU IN JAX

What is JAX?

From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine storage
Date: March 29, 2005 at 7:09:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/29/2005 2:03:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
Hi
What is the best way to store ibogaine.  What is the aprox shelf life after delivery>?
Warmest Regards

Matt
air tight and out of the light.

From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 29, 2005 at 7:02:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Glad to know you are doing the right thing, and Sandy is right not all doctors know what the hell they are doing. I have found the doctors that specializes in addiction are better at getting people off SSRI then other doctors. As for my comment about a bunch of drug addicts, I say that because I am a drug addict and I know how we think and what we do and in most cases we do try and do thing on our own without the help of people who are better qualified.

From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 29, 2005 at 6:22:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanx Sandy for the show of support.

As for your comment Margo: I am trying to get off the Effexor because it isn’t work very well & makes me uncomfortable in a number of ways including wiping out my memory and my ability to have an orgasm. As an intellectual, I need my brain on-line, and  as a human woman, I reaalllly need my clit on-line, so, you know, I am kinda motivated to get off the meds.

I *am* working closely with my psychiatrist, and she is trying to help. When I wrote the query to this fragrant and loving pile of ex junkies here, I was seeking help for something the doc wasn’t able to help with: she simply called it “discontinuation syndrome” and basically said it would pass. She hoped. Maybe. Soon? This was my second attempt to get off the efxr, and I was very very ill. I figured that these folks on the list might have some insight into how to deal with withdrawal.

Anyway, as an update, I have been taking a small dose of prozac along with the efxr, then I went cold turkey on the efxr, had about four days of intense (but less intense than the first time) discontinuation syndrome symptoms, and now I am starting to feel better (and hallelujah, the southern regions have finally come out of their efxr winter!!) .

I have been taking  vitamins & supplements to support the brain juice while I transition. Eating spinach and peanuts and lecithin and eggs (for the yolk) to help with one set of neurotransmitters. Adding a little 5-htp to help with another set.

so….thanks again for your sage advice and support, listees!
xo
Kiersten

On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:03 PM, booker w wrote:

Hey Margo – This is pretty offensive to me, I must say.  I have found (over YEARS and YEARS) that docs are often the least effective when it comes to info regarding drugs.  They throw you on whatever works and whatever keeps you quiet and happy.  “The bunch of addicts here” could teach a mountain of info to your beloved docs.

Why want off the effexor – gee, just to see if you can live without it, perhaps.  I don’t think all SSRI’s are meant for a lifetime.  I have a terrible hassle getting off zoloft.  Tried twice now.  My doc is no help at all.  Talking to others attempting and succeeding at what I want to do, always seems the best route.

From one of this “bunch.”  Sandy

>From: MargoK2004@aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
>Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:14 EST
>
>
>In a message dated 3/28/2005 9:40:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:
>
>kiers10@mac.com
>
>
>Kiersten, if Effexor is working for you why do you want to get off of it?
>And have you try talking to a doctor about it. The problem with most addicts is
>that they try and do there own medical management instead of letting someone
>who  might just know what there doing take care of it for them and before you
>know it  they are back on the drugs that got them in trouble to began with.
>Seek help  from a professional not a bunch of addicts.
/]=———————————————————————=[\  [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=———————————————————————=[/
Psychic Divas
firebright@mac.com
510 508 9597
510 932 3048

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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 29, 2005 at 6:03:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Margo – This is pretty offensive to me, I must say.  I have found (over YEARS and YEARS) that docs are often the least effective when it comes to info regarding drugs.  They throw you on whatever works and whatever keeps you quiet and happy.  “The bunch of addicts here” could teach a mountain of info to your beloved docs.
Why want off the effexor – gee, just to see if you can live without it, perhaps.  I don’t think all SSRI’s are meant for a lifetime.  I have a terrible hassle getting off zoloft.  Tried twice now.  My doc is no help at all.  Talking to others attempting and succeeding at what I want to do, always seems the best route.
From one of this “bunch.”  Sandy

>From: MargoK2004@aol.com

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.

>Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:14 EST

>

>

>In a message dated 3/28/2005 9:40:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:

>

>kiers10@mac.com

>

>

>Kiersten, if Effexor is working for you why do you want to get off of it?

>And have you try talking to a doctor about it. The problem with most addicts is

>that they try and do there own medical management instead of letting someone

>who  might just know what there doing take care of it for them and before you

>know it  they are back on the drugs that got them in trouble to began with.

>Seek help  from a professional not a bunch of addicts.

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine storage
Date: March 29, 2005 at 2:02:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
What is the best way to store ibogaine.  What is the aprox shelf life after delivery>?
Warmest Regards

Matt

Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$
Date: March 29, 2005 at 1:06:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi

Count me in if you win the lottery and I will do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] ot Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 1:05:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 29/03/2005 03:12:32 GMT Standard Time, morning_wood263@yahoo.com writes:
I’ve been to 6 different clinics and the staff
varies greatly.  Someone recently said listen to
doctors not drug addicts…well why not listen to both
with a grain of salt, do research then come to
resonable conclusions.

I totally agree, listen to whoever is willing to help you, In my experience, personally I relate better to an ex addict than a doctor because I know they have been throgh withdrawals and beaten their addiction! but that might just be me I say take advice wherever you can get it
love donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: Marcus <aktionman@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 29, 2005 at 11:54:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry, marko………i missed ur 1st post.
marcus

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 12:12:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I love the smell of rubber and wet leather in the morning………..! smells like …………. recovery.               Randy <

Oh goodness, LOL.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: shelley krupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises

Hey All, I agree that pain does release endorphins ,but i think youd start do develop tolerance,then what!-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
This is so wide open for ridicule I don’t know where to start. Sure I guess I’d be happy that the whipping stopped and have a new lease on life for a little while, but what happens after these people get home? I know what I’d do. Bang. Twice for good measure. Then I’d be lookin’ for the sadistic son of a bitch that took a cane to my ass. Well, I guess if it truly was a person of the opposite sex I might make an exception, esp. if she wears one of those maid outfits or was covered in rubber or something. LOL I never could figure out what was so stimulating about whippin’ people or being whipped. I guess it takes all kinds of people to make a world. You know whoever came up with this was a huge fan of that De Sade dude. I’d like to look in that fuckers closet. WHOA nice whip. Just where in the hell did you get those boots? Do you really wear that mask? I love the smell of rubber and wet leather in the morning………..! smells like …………. recovery.               Randy

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 29, 2005 at 12:11:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
questionnaire instead.<

LOL, Marko, you’ve got to be kidding right? You don’t have time to waste egaging in discussion, but you want us to all rush to fill in your questionnaire?
Again, I’ll be happy to help out, when I too have a bit of time to “waste” (which I don’t consider filling in your questionnaire to be, only not something I yet have time for).

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Marko” <marko@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/

2 (two) people from the list did it (thank you both!), others didn’t.

I *know* that I could get several hundreds entries if all of you did your
part… but you didn’t. Why you didn’t? Prolly because you don’t care. You
had your dose, now you feel that you are above all and everything, that
you’re worth more than the rest of humanity. And, filling out
questionnaires doesn’t apply to you.

That’s how it looks.

But, did you consider that some of us want to do MORE than just have our
IBO dose and feel above the rest because of it? That some of us really
want to bring IBO to state-paid medical environment? And, that we also
need your small input to make a step forward?? Do you remember that “every
vote counts”, not only during elections, but in everyday life???

http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php is a direct link
to the questionnaire – if someone feels like filling it out  and sending
it….

Your non-cooperation is very depressing. It makes me feel like stop
supplying IBO; and directing all inquieries to this list “ask *them* why
they got their IBO, and why you can’t get it!!!”

Perhaps more people will turn to whipping. Themselves, or maybe even
you…

Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
questionnaire instead.

Marko

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 29, 2005 at 12:09:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/<

And I must say, I apologize but haven’t had much time to do much of ANYTHING lately, certainly not fill out any questionnaires. I’d be more than happy to do so, but when I get the opportunity and am not so overloaded with deadlines, call times, etc, etc.
So please remind me again at some point in about a month’s time and I’d be MUCH MORE than happy to take time to fill in your questionnair, but at this point, I’ve been deleting most email unread, completely, no matter what list it’s from- so it’s even possible I missed your request, personally.
So again, please remind me again in about a month, and I’d be more than happy to help out.
Actually, I went and looked for the questionnaire just now, couldn’t find it, then found your direct link to it, took a look and really, I’m sorry, I don’t have the time right now- no offense, and I honestly will be happy to do it at a later date (I can’t believe I’m feeling guilty about this- silly me) but not right now- it’ll take my stopping and really thinking deeply and giving answers about stuff I can’t stop to think about right now due to all the other much more necessary and important (to me at the moment) questions and commentary and stuff.
Send another reminder down the road, and I’ll be more than happy to fill it out- when I have the time, and I simply can’t make it right now. (Of course, in the time it took this email, I coulda answered at least one or two of your questions, but certainly not all of them.)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Marko” <marko@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)

I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/

2 (two) people from the list did it (thank you both!), others didn’t.

I *know* that I could get several hundreds entries if all of you did your
part… but you didn’t. Why you didn’t? Prolly because you don’t care. You
had your dose, now you feel that you are above all and everything, that
you’re worth more than the rest of humanity. And, filling out
questionnaires doesn’t apply to you.

That’s how it looks.

But, did you consider that some of us want to do MORE than just have our
IBO dose and feel above the rest because of it? That some of us really
want to bring IBO to state-paid medical environment? And, that we also
need your small input to make a step forward?? Do you remember that “every
vote counts”, not only during elections, but in everyday life???

http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php is a direct link
to the questionnaire – if someone feels like filling it out  and sending
it….

Your non-cooperation is very depressing. It makes me feel like stop
supplying IBO; and directing all inquieries to this list “ask *them* why
they got their IBO, and why you can’t get it!!!”

Perhaps more people will turn to whipping. Themselves, or maybe even
you…

Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
questionnaire instead.

Marko

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From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] for all who ingested IBO (except two)
Date: March 29, 2005 at 11:14:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I must say I’m VERY disapointed.

On February 27, I politely asked all of you who ingested IBO in any form
to fill out the questionnaire on http://sacrament.kibla.si/

2 (two) people from the list did it (thank you both!), others didn’t.

I *know* that I could get several hundreds entries if all of you did your
part… but you didn’t. Why you didn’t? Prolly because you don’t care. You
had your dose, now you feel that you are above all and everything, that
you’re worth more than the rest of humanity. And, filling out
questionnaires doesn’t apply to you.

That’s how it looks.

But, did you consider that some of us want to do MORE than just have our
IBO dose and feel above the rest because of it? That some of us really
want to bring IBO to state-paid medical environment? And, that we also
need your small input to make a step forward?? Do you remember that “every
vote counts”, not only during elections, but in everyday life???

http://sacrament.kibla.si/Areas/Research/questionare.php is a direct link
to the questionnaire – if someone feels like filling it out  and sending
it….

Your non-cooperation is very depressing. It makes me feel like stop
supplying IBO; and directing all inquieries to this list “ask *them* why
they got their IBO, and why you can’t get it!!!”

Perhaps more people will turn to whipping. Themselves, or maybe even
you…

Please don’t reply to this E-mail, because I won’t engage in any
discussion; I don’t have time to waste. I suggest that you fill the
questionnaire instead.

Marko

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 11:28:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Sent: 29 March 2005 09:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and
suicide crises

“Beatings will continue until morale improves.”

I hate to be the one to say this, but it is conceivable that the
endorphins released by pain – or its cessation – do indeed have a
temporary, positive affect on mood. Like the person who cuts
him/her self to feel control of (at least one component of) the
pain they normally feel, some people may find a mundane physical
pain a big enough distraction from whatever issues got them into
painkillers in the first place that they can let go of painkillers
more easily.

Nick, would you be ok with this? I’m skeptical that this treatment
could ever be administered in a truly clinical way.

Sounds like it would appeal to Christians. I don’t believe this guy’s name
is Speransky, though.

Nick

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:24 -0800 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Hi Preston,

Why stop at drug use.  The technology would seem to be a deterrent

for
democratic principals as well, freedom of speech, etc.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Howard

In a message dated 3/28/05 8:27:58 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

you’ve got to be kidding, right?

I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time

raises
dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but
somehow I’m
just not quite buying this one either.

“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!”
LOL, errrr,
I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in

Manhattan,
and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in
some “let’s
beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] morning wood (ot)
Date: March 29, 2005 at 10:58:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry to whine on the forum.  every med i take is lawfully rx’d.  i had prelaw stuff that’s public record.  i’m glad for you and everyone who has had the good fortune to have the experience.  as stated, i am jealous as it’s not an option for me right now, but i feel i could benefit.  i truly hope you and others with your experience tucked away continue to live a sober life, living comfortably without having to take any mood or mind altering drugs.  as for my profession, i don’t know how you came up with me being a lawyer.  must have been some miscommunication on my part at an earlier date.. i work with indigent people and have dedicated my life to helping those less fortunate than me.  the road can be bumpy, but i appreciate success when i see it, including yours and others on this list. kind thoughts, ron

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$
Date: March 29, 2005 at 10:05:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

meetings, tapering, no sleep… just the traditional stuff.  i live in the bible belt, doc’s are afraid of their shadows and there is no ibo underground.  who’s waiting?  it ain’t me, not the way i feel. but i whine on so i’ll quit here.  thanks for the words of encouragement. hoping you stay on your peaceful path, ron

—– Original Message —– From: “Morning Wood” <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$

Ron,

Are you still talking to as many people as you can
to see if an unseen opportunity exists?  Ibo is
pricey, but if you look good, there might be ways
around that.  Although that would mean less time to
whine about stuff.
If you can’t afford a treatment, find some people
who can afford it.  The ‘underground’ would probably
find that worth the time I would assume.
If you really want change stop waiting for something
or someone.  Create some opportunities, you’re a
lawyer, trust me your sevices are in need.

Keep your head up Bro.
jb

— Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net> wrote:
Ibo seems pricey, flying 1000’s of miles is pricey,
pc’s are pricey, geeze, can’t just steal a lawnmower
and score ibo.  new breed of affluent junkies.  we
could get brokers to manage our portfolios and
personal assistants to coordinate our time off.
it’s times like this, i wish i were keith richards.
not a put down, just a casual observation from a
55yr. old shell.
one day , maybe i’ll get sober again.  hope it’s
soon cuz i haven’t had fun in a zillion years.
peaceful path to all, i’ve lost quite a few along
this trek and they’re still falling. i’m not a
‘naut, just trying to tough it out the old way.
maybe my lottery ticket will land and i’ll take a
busload to sara’s or that island spa. if i make it,
it will be from the help of others.  ron, or what’s
left of him. peace to all, i revel in your
enthusiasm and am quite jealous.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 9:50:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey All, I agree that pain does release endorphins ,but i think youd start do develop tolerance,then what!-shell

BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
This is so wide open for ridicule I don’t know where to start. Sure I guess I’d be happy that the whipping stopped and have a new lease on life for a little while, but what happens after these people get home? I know what I’d do. Bang. Twice for good measure. Then I’d be lookin’ for the sadistic son of a bitch that took a cane to my ass. Well, I guess if it truly was a person of the opposite sex I might make an exception, esp. if she wears one of those maid outfits or was covered in rubber or something. LOL I never could figure out what was so stimulating about whippin’ people or being whipped. I guess it takes all kinds of people to make a world. You know whoever came up with this was a huge fan of that De Sade dude. I’d like to look in that fuckers closet. WHOA nice whip. Just where in the hell did you get those boots? Do you really wear that mask? I love the smell of rubber and wet leather in the morning……….. smells like …………. recovery.               Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 6:02:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is so wide open for ridicule I don’t know where to start. Sure I guess I’d be happy that the whipping stopped and have a new lease on life for a little while, but what happens after these people get home? I know what I’d do. Bang. Twice for good measure. Then I’d be lookin’ for the sadistic son of a bitch that took a cane to my ass. Well, I guess if it truly was a person of the opposite sex I might make an exception, esp. if she wears one of those maid outfits or was covered in rubber or something. LOL I never could figure out what was so stimulating about whippin’ people or being whipped. I guess it takes all kinds of people to make a world. You know whoever came up with this was a huge fan of that De Sade dude. I’d like to look in that fuckers closet. WHOA nice whip. Just where in the hell did you get those boots? Do you really wear that mask? I love the smell of rubber and wet leather in the morning……….. smells like …………. recovery.               Randy

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] on melatonin…
Date: March 29, 2005 at 5:43:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

After informing a friend and contributor to the new book about how badly wiped out mentally and physically I’d felt after that short jaunt to LA last week (I mena it, I was an emotional wreck, not to mention physical- I thought I was having a breakdown the first day or two back here in NYC- it was VERY weird), he wrote back with the following tidbit, which made me laugh, considering I know someone on this list who swears up and down that I should be eating bottles of the stuff…(not reeeeaaly bottles of it, just a lot of it for everything from returning my dreams- which is NOT a problem I’ve EVER had- I dream up a storm every single time I sleep and remember a lot of them- to helping me sleep- another problem I haven’t much problem with yet still get this stuff recommended). Anyway, here’s my friend’s comment:

Watch out for that melatonin herbal stuff that’s supposed to help you with sleep problems and snap you out of jet lag. I just had a bad experience with it. I’m pretty sure it’s what gave me a few days of some severe near-fainting and near-nausea episodes. Maybe it’s the Natural Miracle a lot of people say it is, but approach it with caution. Scary couple of days, my first and last bottle of melatonin now in trash can.<

LOL, so as I told him, I’ve tried it, it didn’t do anything to OR for me, so I don’t bother taking it. I’m sure it “works” for some and doesn’t for others, but I did think it funny that one of my more crazy-like friends loves the stuff, and one of my lesser crazy but still pretty nuts doesn’t.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 5:38:45 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeah, I think I’m with you on this one Sara.
I agree that beating someone repeatedly probably does release a lot of funky chemicals, but laughing is just ever so much more FUN gosh darn it. I think I’d MUCH prefer a laugher clinic to a “beating the heck outta me” clinic.
But I’m surprised I ever have to write that, and that there might actually be others out there who might diagree- leaves my head shaking in wonderment.
;-)))

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:13 AM
Subject: RE: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises

Laughing a lot will do the same, and is humane.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Verzonden: dinsdag 29 maart 2005 10:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide
crises

“Beatings will continue until morale improves.”

I hate to be the one to say this, but it is conceivable that the
endorphins released by pain – or its cessation – do indeed have a
temporary, positive affect on mood. Like the person who cuts
him/her self to feel control of (at least one component of) the
pain they normally feel, some people may find a mundane physical
pain a big enough distraction from whatever issues got them into
painkillers in the first place that they can let go of painkillers
more easily.

Nick, would you be ok with this? I’m skeptical that this treatment
could ever be administered in a truly clinical way.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:24 -0800 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Hi Preston,

Why stop at drug use.  The technology would seem to be a deterrent

for
democratic principals as well, freedom of speech, etc.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Howard

In a message dated 3/28/05 8:27:58 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

you’ve got to be kidding, right?

I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time

raises
dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but
somehow I’m
just not quite buying this one either.

“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!”
LOL, errrr,
I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in

Manhattan,
and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in
some “let’s
beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 4:13:47 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Laughing a lot will do the same, and is humane.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Verzonden: dinsdag 29 maart 2005 10:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide
crises

“Beatings will continue until morale improves.”

I hate to be the one to say this, but it is conceivable that the
endorphins released by pain – or its cessation – do indeed have a
temporary, positive affect on mood. Like the person who cuts
him/her self to feel control of (at least one component of) the
pain they normally feel, some people may find a mundane physical
pain a big enough distraction from whatever issues got them into
painkillers in the first place that they can let go of painkillers
more easily.

Nick, would you be ok with this? I’m skeptical that this treatment
could ever be administered in a truly clinical way.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:24 -0800 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Hi Preston,

Why stop at drug use.  The technology would seem to be a deterrent

for
democratic principals as well, freedom of speech, etc.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Howard

In a message dated 3/28/05 8:27:58 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

you’ve got to be kidding, right?

I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time

raises
dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but
somehow I’m
just not quite buying this one either.

“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!”
LOL, errrr,
I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in

Manhattan,
and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in
some “let’s
beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 3:00:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Beatings will continue until morale improves.”

I hate to be the one to say this, but it is conceivable that the
endorphins released by pain – or its cessation – do indeed have a
temporary, positive affect on mood. Like the person who cuts
him/her self to feel control of (at least one component of) the
pain they normally feel, some people may find a mundane physical
pain a big enough distraction from whatever issues got them into
painkillers in the first place that they can let go of painkillers
more easily.

Nick, would you be ok with this? I’m skeptical that this treatment
could ever be administered in a truly clinical way.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:25:24 -0800 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Hi Preston,

Why stop at drug use.  The technology would seem to be a deterrent

for
democratic principals as well, freedom of speech, etc.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Howard

In a message dated 3/28/05 8:27:58 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

you’ve got to be kidding, right?

I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time

raises
dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but
somehow I’m
just not quite buying this one either.

“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!”
LOL, errrr,
I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in

Manhattan,
and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in
some “let’s
beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

/]=————————————————————–

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 29, 2005 at 2:49:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 29 March 2005 00:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

nick man, you touch a number of interesting points for discussion here
i have to check my online osho zen tarot now…

hey, i got celebration. i just paste in what it says:

Life is a moment to celebrate, to enjoy. Make it fun, a celebration,
and then you will enter the temple. The temple is not for the
long-faced, it has never been for them. Look at life–do you see
sadness anywhere? Have you ever seen a tree depressed? Have you seen a
bird anxiety-ridden? Have you seen an animal neurotic? No, life is not
like that, not at all. Only man has gone wrong somewhere, and he has
gone wrong somewhere because he thinks himself to be very wise, very
clever. Your cleverness is your disease. Don’t be too wise. Always
remember to stop; don’t go to the extreme. A little foolishness and a
little wisdom is good, and the right combination makes you a buddha.

very good, i´ll consider that.

take care
ekki

Well, you start listening to that old fool Osho, God knows what’ll happen to
you! He didn’t even write those cards, you know.

Nick

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 29, 2005 at 1:19:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ah yes, very true Howard, you’re right on that one.
But shhh, we wouldn’t want to give anyone any ideas, right?

Peace and love,
Preston

—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises

Hi Preston,

Why stop at drug use.  The technology would seem to be a deterrent for
democratic principals as well, freedom of speech, etc.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Howard

In a message dated 3/28/05 8:27:58 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

you’ve got to be kidding, right?

I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time raises
dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but somehow I’m
just not quite buying this one either.

“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!” LOL, errrr,
I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in Manhattan,
and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in some “let’s
beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$
Date: March 29, 2005 at 12:39:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ron,

Are you still talking to as many people as you can
to see if an unseen opportunity exists?  Ibo is
pricey, but if you look good, there might be ways
around that.  Although that would mean less time to
whine about stuff.
If you can’t afford a treatment, find some people
who can afford it.  The ‘underground’ would probably
find that worth the time I would assume.
If you really want change stop waiting for something
or someone.  Create some opportunities, you’re a
lawyer, trust me your sevices are in need.

Keep your head up Bro.
jb

— Ron Davis <rwd3@cox.net> wrote:
Ibo seems pricey, flying 1000’s of miles is pricey,
pc’s are pricey, geeze, can’t just steal a lawnmower
and score ibo.  new breed of affluent junkies.  we
could get brokers to manage our portfolios and
personal assistants to coordinate our time off.
it’s times like this, i wish i were keith richards.
not a put down, just a casual observation from a
55yr. old shell.
one day , maybe i’ll get sober again.  hope it’s
soon cuz i haven’t had fun in a zillion years.
peaceful path to all, i’ve lost quite a few along
this trek and they’re still falling. i’m not a
‘naut, just trying to tough it out the old way.
maybe my lottery ticket will land and i’ll take a
busload to sara’s or that island spa. if i make it,
it will be from the help of others.  ron, or what’s
left of him. peace to all, i revel in your
enthusiasm and am quite jealous.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 28, 2005 at 10:25:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston,

Why stop at drug use.  The technology would seem to be a deterrent for
democratic principals as well, freedom of speech, etc.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Howard

In a message dated 3/28/05 8:27:58 PM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

you’ve got to be kidding, right?

I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time raises
dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but somehow I’m
just not quite buying this one either.

“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!” LOL, errrr,
I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in Manhattan,
and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in some “let’s
beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] $$$$$$$$$$$$
Date: March 28, 2005 at 10:07:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibo seems pricey, flying 1000’s of miles is pricey, pc’s are pricey, geeze, can’t just steal a lawnmower and score ibo.  new breed of affluent junkies.  we could get brokers to manage our portfolios and personal assistants to coordinate our time off.  it’s times like this, i wish i were keith richards. not a put down, just a casual observation from a 55yr. old shell.
one day , maybe i’ll get sober again.  hope it’s soon cuz i haven’t had fun in a zillion years. peaceful path to all, i’ve lost quite a few along this trek and they’re still falling. i’m not a ‘naut, just trying to tough it out the old way. maybe my lottery ticket will land and i’ll take a busload to sara’s or that island spa. if i make it, it will be from the help of others.  ron, or what’s left of him. peace to all, i revel in your enthusiasm and am quite jealous.

From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Ibogaine] ot Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 28, 2005 at 9:03:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hiya,

That’s a great example of that stigma.

So I’m doing some spring cleaning and ran across
some old methadone medical records.  Re-reading it, I
had allot of the same feeling I get when reading about
whipping therapy.  Not with the methadone itself, but
like Jon said before, the way it is administered.

Basically they thought I looked fucked up, so they
refused my take homes and wanted to call the ER.  I
had arrest warrents, unless you have lots of money,
good luck getting prescribed methadone in Jail, so
when she picks up the phone to call 911 I click the
base of the phone to hang it up while the reciever was
in their hand (I didn’t touch them or the phone in
their hand, I’m not violent, their was not discussion
just irrational action by them), they wrote this down
in my medical records as me physically taking the
phone out of their hand, pushing them away, then hang
it up.

This makes for great reading, too bad it didn’t
happen like that.  And I’m not just relying on my own
account of the events either.  Anyways, they dropped
my dose and stripped my take home privilages and only
let me leave the clinic if I had a family member agree
to take me to the ER (even though I said repeatedly I
had no nead to go).  They said my position would
remain the same untill I could prove I wasn’t fucked
up on drugs.   (All of my clinic UA’s were clean) So
when I came back with a UA that I had to pay for that
showed nothing but cannabis in my system, they wrote,
in my medical records ‘psychological collapse’.  But
refer to no odd behavior prior other them my reaction
to them.  I mean come on, I was on my way to work.
You know that job thingy that I wasn’t able to get to
that day because of all the powertrip non-sense.

I’ve been to 6 different clinics and the staff
varies greatly.  Someone recently said listen to
doctors not drug addicts…well why not listen to both
with a grain of salt, do research then come to
resonable conclusions.

I listened only to the staff when I was on Orlaam
and ran out of money and believed them when they said
their wasn’t another way.  If I had looked into it
more at the time, I would have found the free and
sliding scale clinics that I eventually did find.
Instead I spent the next 4 months in indescribable
pain, worst I’ve ever experienced by far.  Terrible
waste of time and energy.
Some of the most good hearted people I’ve ever had
the chance to meet are/were staff at a clinic.  Some
of the worst too though.  Too many staff Power trips.
I see that sometimes in other drug treatments too 😉

I feel it should be equal.  For example, I dislike
the term ‘subject’, I think ‘patient’ is better.

Some therapist I’ve gone to can’t stand being on
equal level with patient, gives them some distance and
feeling of control I guess.  They seem more like a
friend for hire then anything really constructive,
that’s just me.

Meeting 30 new people would do more to improve
someones life then traditional therapy, and it’s way
cheeper.

-jb

— Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

you’ve got to be kidding, right?
I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long
periods of time raises
dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and
all, but somehow I’m
just not quite buying this one either.
“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy
with pain!” LOL, errrr,
I can think of some places where you can get it done
free here in Manhattan,
and other places where prices would probably be
cheaper than in some “let’s
beat the shit outta them there junkies”
establishments.-

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to
Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out
Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures
depression and suicide crises

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide
crises
03/26/2005 13:06

The effect is astounding: a patient starts seeing
only bright colors in
the
surrounding world

Russian scientists from the city of Novosibirsk,
Siberia, made a
sensational
report at the international conference devoted to
new methods of treatment
and
rehabilitation in narcology. The report was called
“Methods of painful
impact
to treat addictive behavior.”

Siberian scientists believe that addiction to
alcohol and narcotics, as
well
as depression, suicidal thoughts and psychosomatic
diseases occur when an
individual loses his or her interest in life. The
absence of the will to
live is
caused with decreasing production of endorphins –
the substance, which is
known
as the hormone of happiness. If a depressed
individual receives a physical
punishment, whipping that is, it will stir up
endorphin receptors,
activate the
“production of happiness” and eventually remove
depressive feelings.

Russian scientists recommend the following course
of the whipping therapy:
30
sessions of 60 whips on the buttocks in every
procedure. A group of drug
addicts volunteered to test the new method of
treatment: the results can
be
described as good and excellent.

Doctor of Biological Sciences, Sergei Speransky,
is a very well known
figure
in Novosibirsk. The doctor became one of the
authors of the shocking
whipping
therapy. The professor used the self-flagellation
method to cure his own
depression; he also recovered from two heart
attacks with the help of
physical
tortures too.

“The whipping therapy becomes much more efficient
when a patients receives
the punishment from a person of the opposite sex.
The effect is
astounding: the
patient starts seeing only bright colors in the
surrounding world, the
heartache disappears, although it will take a
certain time for the
buttocks to heal,
of course,” Sergei Speransky told the Izvestia
newspaper.

The whipping therapy has not become a new
discovery in the history of
medicine. Tibetan monks widely used it for medical
purposes too. Soviet
specialists
used a special method of torturing therapy at
mental hospitals. They made
injections of brimstone and peach oil mixture to
inspire mentally
unbalanced
patience with a will to live. A patient would
suffer from horrible pain in
the body
after such an injection, but he or she would
change their attitude to life
for
the better afterwards.

“People might probably think of me as a
masochist,” Dr. Speransky said.
“But
I can assure you that I am not a classic masochist
at all,” he added.

The revolutionary method may take the Russian
healthcare to a whole new
level. The method is cheap and highly efficient,
as its authors assure.
Why not
using something more efficient, a rack, for
example?

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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 28, 2005 at 8:47:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i’m a lurker wanting to be happy in my skin and sober…no helpers, just straight.
i’ve got about 8 yrs of college and a few degrees which have never gotten me laid.  i think a spiritual path is an empiracal route ,  otherwords , it can only be proved by doing it or watching others who have done it.  the multidisciplinary approach to recovery obscures this because one can’t tell what cause the result.  of course, hip is tolerance.  ron, looking for a peaceful path with serious doubts of finding it—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!

Peter,

You state:
‘dependency’ is a complex learned behaviour.
As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.

It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are) anti-intellectual also.

Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I read that as a soul issue – psycho/spirituality. You read it as a psychological one.

IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a psychological issue (complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone. It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided to distance yourself from.

I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor will you even consider these possibilities.

That’s all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying the interpretation others use for what works for them?

Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with a drugs for all paradise?

I respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude in your viewpoints and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.

With love,

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Dear Peter and Nick,

Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the communications
between yourself and Peter.

On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug regulatory
development issues. We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world. We had to use
specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in treating a medical
condition. After all that is what medications are for.

That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social medical
insurance?

Thanks again to both of you.

Howard

In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

>RE: dissing a Substance!!
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
> To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
> Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
>
>
> Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
>complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s
>life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than
>wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when
>crossing the street
>
>
> It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
>the
>ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
> Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
>for
>whom it was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
>his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who
>want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
> Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time,
>is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road,
>as I
>said often before.
>
>
> I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our
>voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.
>
>
> Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole
>ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have
>found that the rite the passage from one type of lifestyle to another
>is
>sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe
>it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well,
>but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When it serves, it serves,
>and
>if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we
>will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
>think
>you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because
>we
>think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.
>
>
> But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided
>at
>all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they
>are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential
>ones, but that is a whole other story.
> pc
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and
>so
>I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or
>”junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad
>feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see
>where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that
>one
>is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically
>cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the
>individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone
>is
>coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
>therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
> As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
>helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they
>cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all
>this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
>stop.
>There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a
>bit
>of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell
>the
>person to stop if they no longer want to use.
>
> Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine.
>Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it
>works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
>psychological than neurochemical.
> Thank you for an interesting discussion
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially,
>have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical
>aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree
>that
>they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
>propose ibogaine should be promoted?
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>–
>————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
>
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] meth means methamphetamine
Date: March 28, 2005 at 8:33:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m really wanting to find information on the treatment of methamphetamine
dependency with ibogaine.  My dope fiend friends really need something,
anything, that will take the edge off the craving for that shot. I’ve read
that ibogaine is less effective for speed freaks than for opiate users,
but even a smaller degree of help will help a gang of them. Does anyone
know anywhere I can find info?

howard put the presentation i gave at the conference last month up on the
ibogaine dossier, you might be interested to read through it… i
summarise experiences of a few treatment providers who’ve treated people
for meth problems…

http://www.ibogaine.org/cosm.ppt

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Fw: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 28, 2005 at 8:27:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

you’ve got to be kidding, right?
I mean, the whole “beating people bloody for long periods of time raises dopamine levels” certainly does sound scientific and all, but somehow I’m just not quite buying this one either.
“Please, beat the addiction out of me, make me happy with pain!” LOL, errrr, I can think of some places where you can get it done free here in Manhattan, and other places where prices would probably be cheaper than in some “let’s beat the shit outta them there junkies” establishments.-

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
03/26/2005 13:06

The effect is astounding: a patient starts seeing only bright colors in the
surrounding world

Russian scientists from the city of Novosibirsk, Siberia, made a sensational
report at the international conference devoted to new methods of treatment and
rehabilitation in narcology. The report was called “Methods of painful impact
to treat addictive behavior.”

Siberian scientists believe that addiction to alcohol and narcotics, as well
as depression, suicidal thoughts and psychosomatic diseases occur when an
individual loses his or her interest in life. The absence of the will to live is
caused with decreasing production of endorphins – the substance, which is known
as the hormone of happiness. If a depressed individual receives a physical
punishment, whipping that is, it will stir up endorphin receptors, activate the
“production of happiness” and eventually remove depressive feelings.

Russian scientists recommend the following course of the whipping therapy: 30
sessions of 60 whips on the buttocks in every procedure. A group of drug
addicts volunteered to test the new method of treatment: the results can be
described as good and excellent.

Doctor of Biological Sciences, Sergei Speransky, is a very well known figure
in Novosibirsk. The doctor became one of the authors of the shocking whipping
therapy. The professor used the self-flagellation method to cure his own
depression; he also recovered from two heart attacks with the help of physical
tortures too.

“The whipping therapy becomes much more efficient when a patients receives
the punishment from a person of the opposite sex. The effect is astounding: the
patient starts seeing only bright colors in the surrounding world, the
heartache disappears, although it will take a certain time for the buttocks to heal,
of course,” Sergei Speransky told the Izvestia newspaper.

The whipping therapy has not become a new discovery in the history of
medicine. Tibetan monks widely used it for medical purposes too. Soviet specialists
used a special method of torturing therapy at mental hospitals. They made
injections of brimstone and peach oil mixture to inspire mentally unbalanced
patience with a will to live. A patient would suffer from horrible pain in the body
after such an injection, but he or she would change their attitude to life for
the better afterwards.

“People might probably think of me as a masochist,” Dr. Speransky said. “But
I can assure you that I am not a classic masochist at all,” he added.

The revolutionary method may take the Russian healthcare to a whole new
level. The method is cheap and highly efficient, as its authors assure. Why not
using something more efficient, a rack, for example?

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 7:42:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A little foolishness and a
little wisdom is good, and the right combination makes you a buddha.<

Hey, this reminded me of something- I just had to write my own bio for the new book project, and this is what I came up with , hopefully combining just the right amount of foolishness and a little wisdom too. Enjoy all.
;-))
(This ain’t exactly on topic, but that’s beginning to be a habit for me- sorry all, I do apologize, but I’m trying to keep in touch but at the moment am so slammed this past week with so many projects I’ve piled on myself, and other issues to deal with too, I’ve just not had a lot to say here as of late. Anyway, here’s the bio, just to share. I had fun, and wrote a 14 page introduction from scratch in the last 2 and a half days, as well as a table of contents, edited a whole bunch of submissions, edited some photo stuff of the coolest looking megalithic architecture and other ancient architectural and navigational and diffussional puzzlers, been to LA and back, did some dj’ing Saturday, and, well, am low on meds too- wow, I live an interesting sort of life, as the Chinese warn one another about- I wonder if there’s an easier way? LOL!)
How are you doin’ Nick? Not bored or anything are you? Getting out there? Living a little? I love you bro. Keep on keepin’ on.
;-))

Preston Peet is an accomplished author, actor, dj, musician, psychonaut and explorer. Editor of “Underground- the Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archaeology and Hidden History,” and “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs,” the website DrugWar.com, a long-time contributor to High Times magazine and author of over 100 articles and stories published in too many publications to list here, not even debilitating chronic pain has kept Preston from visiting those places where others seldom tread. From climbing Ben Nevis, the highest mountain in Scotland, to ingesting shamanic doses of psychedelics and exploring the inner (and outer) realms of extremely altered consciousness, from smoking pot and hashish on the top of the tallest cathedral in Europe, to exploring ancient North American Indian ruins in New Mexico and Colorado, Preston goes where he needs to seek out answers to the questions he wants answered. Born Tracy Rich, in Ft. Meyers, Florida on September 11, 1966, he eventually picked the name Preston at age three and was eventually adopted by the Peet family at age five. Preston has lived in the swankiest digs to the muddiest streets of cities around the world, including Sarasota, Orlando, Tampa, and Tallahassee, all in Florida; Atlanta, Georgia; Paris, France; Las Navas del Marqés, Spain; Bergen, Norway; Rotterdam and Amsterdam, Nederlands; and London, England. Once arriving in NYC, Preston went from kicking cold turkey while squatting on the SUNY Purchase campus, to living strung out in Central Park and on the streets of LES, and now, with his life somewhat together, shares a small apartment in Manhattan with his beautiful vegan muse, soul-mate and lover Vanessa Cleary, and, at the moment, nine rescued cats. Preston is always on the lookout for ever more knowledge, and helping bring peace and adventure back in vogue.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

nick man, you touch a number of interesting points for discussion here
i have to check my online osho zen tarot now…

hey, i got celebration. i just paste in what it says:

Life is a moment to celebrate, to enjoy. Make it fun, a celebration,
and then you will enter the temple. The temple is not for the
long-faced, it has never been for them. Look at life–do you see
sadness anywhere? Have you ever seen a tree depressed? Have you seen a
bird anxiety-ridden? Have you seen an animal neurotic? No, life is not
like that, not at all. Only man has gone wrong somewhere, and he has
gone wrong somewhere because he thinks himself to be very wise, very
clever. Your cleverness is your disease. Don’t be too wise. Always
remember to stop; don’t go to the extreme. A little foolishness and a
little wisdom is good, and the right combination makes you a buddha.

very good, i´ll consider that.

take care
ekki

Am 28.03.2005 um 19:42 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Hey Ekki,

Well, that’s another discussion, and a pretty fucking heavy one in my
experience! If you really want to rip apart the Reformation and the  rise of
the belief in the individual then that can be quite an inner Vietnam  of a
trip – Is existence actually happening to anyone? Self-enquiry. It’s a
strong medicine, maybe stronger even than iboga, and spirituality is  much
lighter and much more to most people’s taste these days. But when I learned
Tarot and the Tree of Life I learned that the most direct route to the
centre is through Key 15 – The Devil.

Determinism is not about a few variations – it’s that what happens in  the
future is created totally through pre-existing circumstances – personality,
dna, society, culture, environment, astrology, whatever. Variations not
relevant. Here I’m just being pedantic, but I don’t see Peter preaching
anything other than pure determinism, and if you do that I don’t see  how you
can have the bias level he has. That’s what I asked him about.

anyway
peter´s main concern is, as far as i read it, that today´s system to
deal with drug users is based on something similar to superstition and
causes unnecessary suffering. i totally agree with peter in this
respect.
in my opinion both the law and most treatment is bullshit.

I think the treatment systems are OK in principle, but that the
predisposition of most governments, esp the US gov, is to subtlely  make sure
heroin addiction stays. They don’t want to back real treatment, they  just
fuck around a little and then pay a fortune to some PR guys to make it look
good before election time. They actively want heroin.

I also don’t agree with making addicts social scapegoats.

peace
ekki

PS – BTW, I don’t buy that atheism, idealism or determinism are
conflicting,
but can’t bring myself to think about this stuff so much.

nick, no, but you bring up terms like this, humanism is another label
you introduced.
and i wonder: why you are so concerned with peter´s motivation?
what are yours in this discussion? uh, and what are mine?
-ekki

Yeah, good question! Conscious motivation and unconscious. I guess I  like to
say I want to find the latter so I follow where I’m interested, where  my
attention goes. I could say I CARE, but I think that’s a bit of a cop-out.
About Peter’s motivation, well, I think this guy has a hidden agenda  and
that stuff worries me a bit. Sure it’ll become clearer in time.

Respect

Nick

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
Date: March 28, 2005 at 7:31:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/15176_whipping.html

Whipping therapy cures depression and suicide crises
03/26/2005 13:06

The effect is astounding: a patient starts seeing only bright colors in the
surrounding world

Russian scientists from the city of Novosibirsk, Siberia, made a sensational
report at the international conference devoted to new methods of treatment and
rehabilitation in narcology. The report was called “Methods of painful impact
to treat addictive behavior.”

Siberian scientists believe that addiction to alcohol and narcotics, as well
as depression, suicidal thoughts and psychosomatic diseases occur when an
individual loses his or her interest in life. The absence of the will to live is
caused with decreasing production of endorphins – the substance, which is known
as the hormone of happiness. If a depressed individual receives a physical
punishment, whipping that is, it will stir up endorphin receptors, activate the
“production of happiness” and eventually remove depressive feelings.

Russian scientists recommend the following course of the whipping therapy: 30
sessions of 60 whips on the buttocks in every procedure. A group of drug
addicts volunteered to test the new method of treatment: the results can be
described as good and excellent.

Doctor of Biological Sciences, Sergei Speransky, is a very well known figure
in Novosibirsk. The doctor became one of the authors of the shocking whipping
therapy. The professor used the self-flagellation method to cure his own
depression; he also recovered from two heart attacks with the help of physical
tortures too.

“The whipping therapy becomes much more efficient when a patients receives
the punishment from a person of the opposite sex. The effect is astounding: the
patient starts seeing only bright colors in the surrounding world, the
heartache disappears, although it will take a certain time for the buttocks to heal,
of course,” Sergei Speransky told the Izvestia newspaper.

The whipping therapy has not become a new discovery in the history of
medicine. Tibetan monks widely used it for medical purposes too. Soviet specialists
used a special method of torturing therapy at mental hospitals. They made
injections of brimstone and peach oil mixture to inspire mentally unbalanced
patience with a will to live. A patient would suffer from horrible pain in the body
after such an injection, but he or she would change their attitude to life for
the better afterwards.

“People might probably think of me as a masochist,” Dr. Speransky said. “But
I can assure you that I am not a classic masochist at all,” he added.

The revolutionary method may take the Russian healthcare to a whole new
level. The method is cheap and highly efficient, as its authors assure. Why not
using something more efficient, a rack, for example?

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Gary Press” <gary@bluemooncapital.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 28, 2005 at 7:30:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ARE YOU IN JAX
—–Original message—–
From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:07:31 -0700
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.

In a message dated 3/28/2005 9:40:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:
kiers10@mac.com

Kiersten, if Effexor is working for you why do you want to get off of it? And have you try talking to a doctor about it. The problem with most addicts is that they try and do there own medical management instead of letting someone who might just know what there doing take care of it for them and before you know it they are back on the drugs that got them in trouble to began with. Seek help from a professional not a bunch of addicts.

From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 28, 2005 at 7:30:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

kiersten, talk to a doctor who knows what the hell he’s doing.

From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 28, 2005 at 7:25:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/28/2005 9:40:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:
kiers10@mac.com

Kiersten, if Effexor is working for you why do you want to get off of it? And have you try talking to a doctor about it. The problem with most addicts is that they try and do there own medical management instead of letting someone who might just know what there doing take care of it for them and before you know it they are back on the drugs that got them in trouble to began with. Seek help from a professional not a bunch of addicts.

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] meth means methamphetamine
Date: March 28, 2005 at 7:24:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/28/05 6:55:32 PM, pnina.ruth@att.net writes:

I’m really wanting to find information on the treatment of methamphetamine
dependency with ibogaine.  My dope fiend friends really need something,
anything, that will take the edge off the craving for that shot. I’ve read
that ibogaine is less effective for speed freaks than for opiate users,
but even a smaller degree of help will help a gang of them. Does anyone
know anywhere I can find info?

Jon Freedlander provided a powerpoint slide show at the nyc ibogaine forum.
It is available from http://www.ibogaine.org/cosm.ppt

You can also do a google.com search for “ibogaine methamphetamine”

You can also get a free powerpoint reader from microsoft just do a google.com
search for that if you don’t have the program.

Howard

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From: pnina.ruth@att.net
Subject: [Ibogaine] meth means methamphetamine
Date: March 28, 2005 at 6:54:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m really wanting to find information on the treatment of methamphetamine dependency with ibogaine.  My dope fiend friends really need something, anything, that will take the edge off the craving for that shot. I’ve read that ibogaine is less effective for speed freaks than for opiate users, but even a smaller degree of help will help a gang of them. Does anyone know anywhere I can find info?

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 6:25:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

nick man, you touch a number of interesting points for discussion here
i have to check my online osho zen tarot now…

hey, i got celebration. i just paste in what it says:

Life is a moment to celebrate, to enjoy. Make it fun, a celebration, and then you will enter the temple. The temple is not for the long-faced, it has never been for them. Look at life–do you see sadness anywhere? Have you ever seen a tree depressed? Have you seen a bird anxiety-ridden? Have you seen an animal neurotic? No, life is not like that, not at all. Only man has gone wrong somewhere, and he has gone wrong somewhere because he thinks himself to be very wise, very clever. Your cleverness is your disease. Don’t be too wise. Always remember to stop; don’t go to the extreme. A little foolishness and a little wisdom is good, and the right combination makes you a buddha.

very good, i´ll consider that.

take care
ekki

Am 28.03.2005 um 19:42 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
Hey Ekki,

Well, that’s another discussion, and a pretty fucking heavy one in my
experience! If you really want to rip apart the Reformation and the rise of
the belief in the individual then that can be quite an inner Vietnam of a
trip – Is existence actually happening to anyone? Self-enquiry. It’s a
strong medicine, maybe stronger even than iboga, and spirituality is much
lighter and much more to most people’s taste these days. But when I learned
Tarot and the Tree of Life I learned that the most direct route to the
centre is through Key 15 – The Devil.

Determinism is not about a few variations – it’s that what happens in the
future is created totally through pre-existing circumstances – personality,
dna, society, culture, environment, astrology, whatever. Variations not
relevant. Here I’m just being pedantic, but I don’t see Peter preaching
anything other than pure determinism, and if you do that I don’t see how you
can have the bias level he has. That’s what I asked him about.

anyway
peter´s main concern is, as far as i read it, that today´s system to
deal with drug users is based on something similar to superstition and
causes unnecessary suffering. i totally agree with peter in this
respect.
in my opinion both the law and most treatment is bullshit.

I think the treatment systems are OK in principle, but that the
predisposition of most governments, esp the US gov, is to subtlely make sure
heroin addiction stays. They don’t want to back real treatment, they just
fuck around a little and then pay a fortune to some PR guys to make it look
good before election time. They actively want heroin.

I also don’t agree with making addicts social scapegoats.

peace
ekki

PS – BTW, I don’t buy that atheism, idealism or determinism are
conflicting,
but can’t bring myself to think about this stuff so much.

nick, no, but you bring up terms like this, humanism is another label
you introduced.
and i wonder: why you are so concerned with peter´s motivation?
what are yours in this discussion? uh, and what are mine?
-ekki

Yeah, good question! Conscious motivation and unconscious. I guess I like to
say I want to find the latter so I follow where I’m interested, where my
attention goes. I could say I CARE, but I think that’s a bit of a cop-out.
About Peter’s motivation, well, I think this guy has a hidden agenda and
that stuff worries me a bit. Sure it’ll become clearer in time.

Respect

Nick

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 12:42:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 28 March 2005 16:42
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

Am 28.03.2005 um 17:16 schrieb Lee Albert:

Ekki,

If all Peter states is:

“he just states that the way people act is partly,
probably mostly, conditioned (and he doesn´t write “totally
determined”) by their enviroment.” – snip –

then I would not even have bothered to respond.

Lee

hi lee
this was referring to the determinism discussion that nick brought up.
of course peter states a lot of other things, too, and it´s good he
does so.

and hey nick,
peter thinks that ” a few variations” are possible, so not everything
determined. and of course, the way we dress, use cars and subways, eat,
go to work, spend our evenings etc. is conditioned to a big part by
society, wouldn´t you agree? the universal determinism you seem to
believe in is certainly not peters cup of tea, and it´s not mine
either, because i don´t think it goes well together with spirituality
or helping people.

Hey Ekki,

Well, that’s another discussion, and a pretty fucking heavy one in my
experience! If you really want to rip apart the Reformation and the rise of
the belief in the individual then that can be quite an inner Vietnam of a
trip – Is existence actually happening to anyone? Self-enquiry. It’s a
strong medicine, maybe stronger even than iboga, and spirituality is much
lighter and much more to most people’s taste these days. But when I learned
Tarot and the Tree of Life I learned that the most direct route to the
centre is through Key 15 – The Devil.

Determinism is not about a few variations – it’s that what happens in the
future is created totally through pre-existing circumstances – personality,
dna, society, culture, environment, astrology, whatever. Variations not
relevant. Here I’m just being pedantic, but I don’t see Peter preaching
anything other than pure determinism, and if you do that I don’t see how you
can have the bias level he has. That’s what I asked him about.

anyway
peter´s main concern is, as far as i read it, that today´s system to
deal with drug users is based on something similar to superstition and
causes unnecessary suffering. i totally agree with peter in this
respect.
in my opinion both the law and most treatment is bullshit.

I think the treatment systems are OK in principle, but that the
predisposition of most governments, esp the US gov, is to subtlely make sure
heroin addiction stays. They don’t want to back real treatment, they just
fuck around a little and then pay a fortune to some PR guys to make it look
good before election time. They actively want heroin.

I also don’t agree with making addicts social scapegoats.

peace
ekki

PS – BTW, I don’t buy that atheism, idealism or determinism are
conflicting,
but can’t bring myself to think about this stuff so much.

nick, no, but you bring up terms like this, humanism is another label
you introduced.
and i wonder: why you are so concerned with peter´s motivation?
what are yours in this discussion? uh, and what are mine?
-ekki

Yeah, good question! Conscious motivation and unconscious. I guess I like to
say I want to find the latter so I follow where I’m interested, where my
attention goes. I could say I CARE, but I think that’s a bit of a cop-out.
About Peter’s motivation, well, I think this guy has a hidden agenda and
that stuff worries me a bit. Sure it’ll become clearer in time.

Respect

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 11:46:41 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Eye of the Bhogi [mailto:freedomroot@gmail.com]
Sent: 28 March 2005 17:36
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

Nick love..

I do believe you are reacting to the postures of academic rhetoric a
bit too literally.  There are all sorts of qualifiers one inserts into
fuddy-duddy type writing, often to engage with an audience of peers
that do not want their egos challenged as much as reinforced.  So
inserting a phrase of “of course” is like a shorthand way of
acknowledging that many of one’s readers/listeners are aware of this
material already, and the author is simply reminding them of what they
know.

Rachy lovey,

Yes, but it isn’t in this case, is it? It’s not “of course” cause it’s not
accepted. People, theorists, scientists, whatever don’t agree on this. That
I’m making maybe a lot out of a little, yes for sure!

Nick

Here’s another take on the “creation” of addiction concepts by
Caroline Jean Ackerman:

http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title_pages/1381.html

from rainy nyc, rachy

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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 11:36:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick love..

I do believe you are reacting to the postures of academic rhetoric a
bit too literally.  There are all sorts of qualifiers one inserts into
fuddy-duddy type writing, often to engage with an audience of peers
that do not want their egos challenged as much as reinforced.  So
inserting a phrase of “of course” is like a shorthand way of
acknowledging that many of one’s readers/listeners are aware of this
material already, and the author is simply reminding them of what they
know.

Here’s another take on the “creation” of addiction concepts by
Caroline Jean Ackerman:

http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title_pages/1381.html

from rainy nyc, rachy

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 10:57:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 28.03.2005 um 16:37 schrieb Nick Sandberg:

PS – BTW, I don’t buy that atheism, idealism or determinism are conflicting,
but can’t bring myself to think about this stuff so much.

nick, no, but you bring up terms like this, humanism is another label you introduced.
and i wonder: why you are so concerned with peter´s motivation?
what are yours in this discussion? uh, and what are mine?
-ekki

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 10:41:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 28.03.2005 um 17:16 schrieb Lee Albert:

Ekki,

If all Peter states is:

“he just states that the way people act is partly,
probably mostly, conditioned (and he doesn´t write “totally
determined”) by their enviroment.” – snip –

then I would not even have bothered to respond.

Lee

hi lee
this was referring to the determinism discussion that nick brought up.
of course peter states a lot of other things, too, and it´s good he does so.

and hey nick,
peter thinks that ” a few variations” are possible, so not everything determined. and of course, the way we dress, use cars and subways, eat, go to work, spend our evenings etc. is conditioned to a big part by society, wouldn´t you agree? the universal determinism you seem to believe in is certainly not peters cup of tea, and it´s not mine either, because i don´t think it goes well together with spirituality or helping people.

anyway
peter´s main concern is, as far as i read it, that today´s system to deal with drug users is based on something similar to superstition and causes unnecessary suffering. i totally agree with peter in this respect.
in my opinion both the law and most treatment is bullshit.

peace
ekki

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 10:16:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki,

If all Peter states is:

“he just states that the way people act is partly,
probably mostly, conditioned (and he doesn´t write “totally
determined”) by their enviroment.” – snip –

then I would not even have bothered to respond.

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Howard,
>
> Yes, Peter’s paper http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.addiction.html is
> interesting. In many ways quite a stunning bit of writing and
> theorizing. He
> shows the root of how the idea of “addiction” arose, that it’s coming
> from
> the Reformation and the new post-religious concept of “individualism.”
> But
> somewhere, for me, he loses it a bit by being so rabidly
> deterministic. He
> writes….
>
> … “It is, of course, a fiction that individual persons steer
> themselves,
> as if an inner compass were installed in each of us. Our ‘personal’
> steering
> is a socially developed, relational and cultural ability that allows a
> few
> variations, although for us it seems as if this variation constitutes
> the
> summit of individuality. The steering forces that shape men and move
> them in
> relation to each other (history, role, climate, economic conditions,
> etc.)
> are so inherent to location, cultures of upbringing and period in
> which a
> person develops, that the imprints they make determine human beings at
> least
> as much and probably much more than the differences between them.
> True, no
> two waves in the sea are the same, but how important are these
> differences
> to understand the phenomenon of waves?”….(Is the addiction doctor the
> voodoo priest of Western man? – P. Cohen, 2000.)
>
> This guy is like seriously deterministic. He uses his utter belief in
> rational determinism to bludgeon and ridicule the business of addiction
> treatment making of it pure voodoo and this seems to be the basis of
> his
> whole stance on drugs.
>
> Personally, I’m not convinced. It’s too one-sided. His belief that
> Determinism is Truth and all other viewpoints need to be ridiculed is
> so
> extreme that, to me, it borders on a religious frenzy, precisely the
> thing
> he says he wants to get rid of. I mean, even like totally walled-in,
> logic-worshipping, stuck-in-their-head, peer-reviewed total scientists
> aren’t THAT deterministic. They see there are two sides minimum to
> every
> argument.
>
> Personally, I think he’s just using this whole deal as an excuse to
> put out
> a prejudiced viewpoint.
>
> Nick
>

peter has been accused of atheism and of idealism, two rather opposing
philosophies.
now he is supposed to be totally deterministic. that´s not based on
evidence, either. he just states that the way people act is partly,
probably mostly, conditioned (and he doesn´t write “totally
determined”) by their enviroment.

and nick, how do you conclude that peter thinks all other viewpoints
need to be ridiculed?

ekki, the rational one 🙂

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 28, 2005 at 9:39:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Kiersten ,i have heard from many that it is difficult to get of those antidepressants. I talked to a lady that tried ibogaine to get off effexor ,she said it did not help. Have you looked at eric braverman’s book /site about building up neurotransmitters with amino acids & diet?Wish you the best- shell

kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com> wrote:
Hey people,

so, I know this is nothing compared to what many of you have gone
through with H, etc, , but I am trying to simply stop taking Effexor
and I every time I get down to two days without, I become dizzy, the
white noise in my head gets turned up to eleven, and I can’t stay
awake. I tried to go off a couple of weeks ago and this happened, so
the doc gave me a low dose of prozac that I have been on now for a
week, and her plan was that I could then quit the Effexor cold. Now the
zaps are milder, but I can do nothing but sleep and listen to white
noise and the world looks very black and I feel a little crazy.

I had a dream last week that since I was going to Florida that I should
go to the Caribbean to do an iboga ceremony. Is it possible that iboga
can help me with this? What do you think?
thanks,
kiersten
On Mar 23, 2005, at 7:12 PM, Jasen Chamoun wrote:

> Hey BB,
>
> How you doing matey. My name is Jasen, I had been (had,…WOW)
> addicted to Methadone and heroin for 23 years. Since the
> age of 15 (first serious habit). I live in Australia. I spoke to many
> understanding people on the list for a few months before going to
> Amsterdam Holland to have the treatment with Sara. I was on 60mg at
> the time and also double and triple dosed a few days
> leading up to getting to Sara’s.
>
> Sara gave me the “extract” Iboga. I was at Sara’s for 27 days. The
> “Iboga'” helped me in many ways, one of which was to relieve
> me of at least 85% of the withdrawals.
>
> The good thing about Iboga’ is that it seems to help with some of the
> underlying reasons as to the addiction in the first place, it did for
> me anyway. It also seems to give you more understanding and it filled
> me with love,..love in very generous amounts. It really was a
> wonderfull medicine for me.
>
> I am now going into my fourth month,…free of all addiction and I am
> loving it. The residual withdrawals for me stuck with me for
> quite a while,….but you know what,..it is not like “hanging out” it
> is like you know you are a little unwell,..like you have the flu, and
> you will get better. It gives you strength.
>
> One very important thing is “aftercare”. Organise yourself in a way
> where you will not be around your old “using” mates, and your
> enviroment is different when you get home. Iboga resets your life and
> gives you the opportunity to take a different path if you so
> choose. It did for me.
>
> If you have any questions, I am here for you, as are many others. Be
> well BB.
>
> I am strong.
>
>
> love,
>
> Jasen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —– From: “bb”
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:13 PM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
>
>
>> I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have signed on in hopes of
>> discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from methadone. Then of course
>> is
>> the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention proper application.
>> But
>> first of all is the question of whether there is any genuine value for
>> meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake comparatively, if you
>> don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust me). Seems
>> “rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping, unless perhaps if the
>> problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life. So does ibogaine
>> differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal anyway?
>> Respectfully-bb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> /]=——————————————————————-
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>> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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>> –=[/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> /]=——————————————————————–
> -=[\
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>
> \]=——————————————————————–
> -=[/
>
>
>
If you are squeamish: don’t prod the beach rubble.

–Sappho

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 9:37:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 28 March 2005 13:59
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

Hi Howard,

Yes, Peter’s paper http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.addiction.html is
interesting. In many ways quite a stunning bit of writing and
theorizing. He
shows the root of how the idea of “addiction” arose, that it’s coming
from
the Reformation and the new post-religious concept of “individualism.”
But
somewhere, for me, he loses it a bit by being so rabidly
deterministic. He
writes….

… “It is, of course, a fiction that individual persons steer
themselves,
as if an inner compass were installed in each of us. Our ‘personal’
steering
is a socially developed, relational and cultural ability that allows a
few
variations, although for us it seems as if this variation constitutes
the
summit of individuality. The steering forces that shape men and move
them in
relation to each other (history, role, climate, economic conditions,
etc.)
are so inherent to location, cultures of upbringing and period in
which a
person develops, that the imprints they make determine human beings at
least
as much and probably much more than the differences between them.
True, no
two waves in the sea are the same, but how important are these
differences
to understand the phenomenon of waves?”….(Is the addiction doctor the
voodoo priest of Western man? – P. Cohen, 2000.)

This guy is like seriously deterministic. He uses his utter belief in
rational determinism to bludgeon and ridicule the business of addiction
treatment making of it pure voodoo and this seems to be the basis of
his
whole stance on drugs.

Personally, I’m not convinced. It’s too one-sided. His belief that
Determinism is Truth and all other viewpoints need to be ridiculed is
so
extreme that, to me, it borders on a religious frenzy, precisely the
thing
he says he wants to get rid of. I mean, even like totally walled-in,
logic-worshipping, stuck-in-their-head, peer-reviewed total scientists
aren’t THAT deterministic. They see there are two sides minimum to
every
argument.

Personally, I think he’s just using this whole deal as an excuse to
put out
a prejudiced viewpoint.

Nick

peter has been accused of atheism and of idealism, two rather opposing
philosophies.
now he is supposed to be totally deterministic. that´s not based on
evidence, either. he just states that the way people act is partly,
probably mostly, conditioned (and he doesn´t write “totally
determined”) by their enviroment.

and nick, how do you conclude that peter thinks all other viewpoints
need to be ridiculed?

ekki, the rational one 🙂

Hi Ekki,

Yes, you’re right. I am going a bit far. But, he does write….

….. “It is, of course, a fiction that individual persons steer themselves,
as if an inner compass were installed in each of us. Our ‘personal’ steering
is a socially developed, relational and cultural ability that allows a few
variations, although for us it seems as if this variation constitutes the
summit of individuality.”….

I mean, that seems like total determinism to me. I don’t see “partially” or
“probably” in there or anywhere else in this piece. Sounds like pure
determinism to me, all the factors he’s relating are pre-existing, and
that’s determinism, as defined. And, he underpins it with this “It is, OF
COURSE, a fiction….” Like “of course”?! As though acceptance of
determinism as the governing principle of the universe was commonly held.
Which it isn’t. Personally, I’m determinist, but it’s nonsense to say there
aren’t other schools of thought also highly accepted.

And in this whole “of course” thing I see the ridicule too. Like it’s a
foregone conclusion to him that this is the way the universe is and anything
else is bullshit. I pick up this underlying sense of ridicule for “the
bewilderment that is felt in our middle class culture”; or “Modern man needs
the concept of ‘addiction’, and its evils, as Mediaeval men needed the devil
or the heretic.” It’s as though there is something “stupid” in what “modern
man” or “our middle class culture” is doing. Maybe it’s just me but it
sounds like ridicule.

OK, so I’m picking and choosing bits of his piece to lay into. It’s not as
good as proper debating. But I just don’t buy this guy’s position, that’s a
gut feeling. I think he started out with some agenda against the middle
classes, modern man, religion, Dutch Calvanism, whatever, then identified
with addicts as a similarly down-trodden group, and then just cobbled
together this whole pseudo-humanist perspective he’s pushing from a load of
post-modern stuff that was floating past at the time. I’m not convinced of
the purity of his motivations. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s where I am.

Nick

PS – BTW, I don’t buy that atheism, idealism or determinism are conflicting,
but can’t bring myself to think about this stuff so much.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 7:58:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Yes, Peter’s paper http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.addiction.html is
interesting. In many ways quite a stunning bit of writing and theorizing. He
shows the root of how the idea of “addiction” arose, that it’s coming from
the Reformation and the new post-religious concept of “individualism.” But
somewhere, for me, he loses it a bit by being so rabidly deterministic. He
writes….

… “It is, of course, a fiction that individual persons steer themselves,
as if an inner compass were installed in each of us. Our ‘personal’ steering
is a socially developed, relational and cultural ability that allows a few
variations, although for us it seems as if this variation constitutes the
summit of individuality. The steering forces that shape men and move them in
relation to each other (history, role, climate, economic conditions, etc.)
are so inherent to location, cultures of upbringing and period in which a
person develops, that the imprints they make determine human beings at least
as much and probably much more than the differences between them. True, no
two waves in the sea are the same, but how important are these differences
to understand the phenomenon of waves?”….(Is the addiction doctor the
voodoo priest of Western man? – P. Cohen, 2000.)

This guy is like seriously deterministic. He uses his utter belief in
rational determinism to bludgeon and ridicule the business of addiction
treatment making of it pure voodoo and this seems to be the basis of his
whole stance on drugs.

Personally, I’m not convinced. It’s too one-sided. His belief that
Determinism is Truth and all other viewpoints need to be ridiculed is so
extreme that, to me, it borders on a religious frenzy, precisely the thing
he says he wants to get rid of. I mean, even like totally walled-in,
logic-worshipping, stuck-in-their-head, peer-reviewed total scientists
aren’t THAT deterministic. They see there are two sides minimum to every
argument.

Personally, I think he’s just using this whole deal as an excuse to put out
a prejudiced viewpoint.

Nick

peter has been accused of atheism and of idealism, two rather opposing philosophies.
now he is supposed to be totally deterministic. that´s not based on evidence, either. he just states that the way people act is partly, probably mostly, conditioned (and he doesn´t write “totally determined”) by their enviroment.

and nick, how do you conclude that peter thinks all other viewpoints need to be ridiculed?

ekki, the rational one 🙂

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 6:42:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 27 March 2005 22:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

In a message dated 3/27/05 11:38:48 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thus I would like to ask you, assuming my understanding of your thesis
is correct, if you could explain a little further how you create
from your
reasoning a negative attribution to the concept of “addiction,” and other
ideas such as “voodoo priests” and the like. Are you proposing a
different
way for our experience of selfhood to actualize? Or would you
dispute that
consciousness needs any organizing principle at all? BTW, I also battle
with these ideas, and a seeming innate need within to “make
things better.”
I am not seeking merely to challenge you or put your ideas down.

Hi Nick,

I just want to comment as you may be, that “voodoo priests”
carries as much
bias as “addiction”.  Both reflect an inherrent condemnation of
the individuals
so identified.

Howard

Hi Howard,

Yes, Peter’s paper http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.addiction.html is
interesting. In many ways quite a stunning bit of writing and theorizing. He
shows the root of how the idea of “addiction” arose, that it’s coming from
the Reformation and the new post-religious concept of “individualism.” But
somewhere, for me, he loses it a bit by being so rabidly deterministic. He
writes….

… “It is, of course, a fiction that individual persons steer themselves,
as if an inner compass were installed in each of us. Our ‘personal’ steering
is a socially developed, relational and cultural ability that allows a few
variations, although for us it seems as if this variation constitutes the
summit of individuality. The steering forces that shape men and move them in
relation to each other (history, role, climate, economic conditions, etc.)
are so inherent to location, cultures of upbringing and period in which a
person develops, that the imprints they make determine human beings at least
as much and probably much more than the differences between them. True, no
two waves in the sea are the same, but how important are these differences
to understand the phenomenon of waves?”….(Is the addiction doctor the
voodoo priest of Western man? – P. Cohen, 2000.)

This guy is like seriously deterministic. He uses his utter belief in
rational determinism to bludgeon and ridicule the business of addiction
treatment making of it pure voodoo and this seems to be the basis of his
whole stance on drugs.

Personally, I’m not convinced. It’s too one-sided. His belief that
Determinism is Truth and all other viewpoints need to be ridiculed is so
extreme that, to me, it borders on a religious frenzy, precisely the thing
he says he wants to get rid of. I mean, even like totally walled-in,
logic-worshipping, stuck-in-their-head, peer-reviewed total scientists
aren’t THAT deterministic. They see there are two sides minimum to every
argument.

Personally, I think he’s just using this whole deal as an excuse to put out
a prejudiced viewpoint.

Nick

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 6:30:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, cool with me, I’d like to see any help with keeping people in a position of authority from slagging off about Ibogaine. Peter has a Ph.D., people listen to what he has to say. I think it is irresponsible for anyone looking to help ………. what is the politically correct word to use here……………. drug users, addicts, junkies, whores, whatever the right word is for today, to be pissing on something that really helps somebody to suffer less. And going through withdrawal is suffering believe me. I wish that we could put all this energy into getting Ibogaine to those who need it. Period. I hate the drug laws in the US. It puts us in a precarious position. Fuck Uncle Sam, I never listened to him anyway, and I hate that hat he wears.                        Randy

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 6:12:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,

Sorry if I’m confused. Thought you were comparing me to some guy you knew, he was too intelligent or something. Like roundabout way of trying to say something. Fuck, I hate that shit when people can’t be straight and just come out with some bullshit innuendo or something. So, if you weren’t laying that trip I apologise. Just me being paranoid, I guess. But anyway Peter isn’t calling ibogaine movement Voodoo Priest – that’s just a phrase he used for addiction doctors in a paper he wrote 5 years ago. Doubt if he’d even heard of ibogaine then. He’s not pissed off with me saying I feel like dragging people out of their houses sometimes, leastways he’s never mentioned this. What he IS pissed off about is the LANGUAGE people who use ibogaine use – they talk like medical people do. It’s about “addicts”, treating “addiction”, treating “dependence”, resolving the “issues underpinning addictive behaviour,” all this kind of stuff. THAT’s what pisses him off. We talk like the ENEMY. As he sees it. The man has no gripe with ibogaine itself. It’s just another drug to him.

And that is what we were discussing, or trying to. Is it possible to find common ground between the ibogaine guys and him so that Peter and his whole Cedro thing don’t have to take every opportunity to slag ibogaine off? This is what it’s about. Peace

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: 28 March 2005 11:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

No dick, I mean dude, I have no inferiority complex about some Dr. I was trying to give you a complement ina round about way. Should have known you wouldn’t get it. What I was trying to say is Peter was calling The Ibogaine movement Voodoo Priest because of the bullshit you put out about chasing people around and pulling them out of the house and making them get clean.               Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 5:32:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No dick, I mean dude, I have no inferiority complex about some Dr. I was trying to give you a complement ina round about way. Should have known you wouldn’t get it. What I was trying to say is Peter was calling The Ibogaine movement Voodoo Priest because of the bullshit you put out about chasing people around and pulling them out of the house and making them get clean.               Randy

From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 28, 2005 at 5:25:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Original Message —
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:30:59 EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

Howard, you are on your game today. I have to say something here to Nick.

I’ve been watching this thing with Peter for a while now, and have come
to
some
conclusions. Or at least I have come to some irrational assumptions, or

whatever. Let me ask some questions here. Where is Peter located….. who
is the
loudest Ibogaine proponent in England…… where would Peter get the idea
that we
are Voodoo Priests wanting to drag people out of their houses and made clean?

Things that make you say what the fuck aint it? I’m sorry if I offend you,

acually I think that you are a very nessesary part of this whole growing
thing
that is going on with Ibogaine. I can tell that you care very deeply for

people, even to the point of pissing them off to help them. Problem is that
you
remind me of the guy who ran the program I went throug in 77 to 80. He was
a dick,
but he was way intellegent, and I still think about what he said to me then.

This debate has been very good for all involved, still I can’t see what

difference it makes. Maybe more will be revealed later, but right now it’s
getting
to be a bit of a drag. I know I had a hand in starting all this, but it
just

seemed like the thing to do at the time. Maybe someone smarter than me can

gather the facts, draw some conclusions, and lets get down to helping people
with
what we have learned from this.         Randy

Randy,

Don’t know if you’re pissed off with me or something. I just copied a mail
I wrote to Peter to the list in answer to something Lee wrote. I didn’t call
anyone a voodoo priest and when Peter used that phrase he wasn’t talking
about ibogaine. I was just interested in Peter’s view on drugs and asking
him for a bit of clarity. Sorry if it’s confusing.

About the whole debate with Peter and his stance on ibogaine and the language
people use to promote it, personally it interests me so I like to talk with
him. And if i have to use a few long words to discuss it with him, I’m ok
with that. If this brings up some trip for you that’s your issue. I’m not
going to stop doing it to panda to some kind of inferiority trip you carry
around or something, whatever it is. What are you saying – that you had a
doctor who you thought was intelligent and he put you down? And now this
situation reminds you of this? Man, you buy that shit it’s up to you. It’s
got fuck all to do with me.

Nick

___________________________________________________________

Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/

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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] stabbing harm reduction in the back?
Date: March 28, 2005 at 12:23:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This bit appeared at the end of a column in the San Francisco papers
today, and made me mad enough to write a three page letter to the
columnists about their tone and ibogaine as one of the options for
treatment.    I’m very disappointed by the quoted doctor, as Haight
Ashbury Free Medical Clinic should be more accurate about the umbrella
term “harm reduction,” I would think, given its progressive roots in
treating hippies who couldn’t get a fair shake from Establishment
docs.

Crack’n up:
The folks down at the San Francisco Needle Exchange program have been
handing out an interesting little pamphlet — “Tips for Smoking and
Shooting Crack.”

It’s long on how to best use the drug, but very short on how to get
off it — and that omission has health officials seeing red.

The handy, one-page folded tip sheet, subtitled “Crack — the Drug
Named After a Part of Your A — ,” offers advice on:

— Smoking: “Use a glass or metal stem with mouthpiece. … Touch
flame to the pipe quickly, instead of holding it in place, move the
flame along the pipe to spread out the heat. … Let the pipe cool
down before you take another hit to prevent burning your lips. …
File down broken edges of stems . .. (and) change screens often, they
get brittle and break and then you could inhale bits — OUCH.”

— Shooting: “Have your sterile cooker … put crack and citric or
ascorbic acid (a pinch to a rock) in the cooker … add plenty of
water … smash and mix well. … Before injecting take the tie off.
Slowly push the plunger … and remember — don’t share rigs and use a
clean needle every time.”

— And finally: “Rotate your injection sites.”

The pamphlet also includes information on how to “take care of yourself.”

“Drink plenty of fluids … eat and sleep … take vitamins.”

What the pamphlet doesn’t have is any information on the dangers of
crack or how to stop using it.

“I have to say I’m kind of shocked,” said Dr. Darryl Inaba of the
Haight Ashbury Free Clinic, which administers the needle exchange
program.

“The pamphlet was part of what we call the ‘harm reduction program’ —
but the real harm here is using the drug, and I don’t think that was
properly addressed,” Inaba said.

“It was executed very poorly — we’re ordering it pulled immediately.”

Chronicle columnists Phillip Matier and Andrew Ross appear Sundays,
Mondays and Wednesdays. They can also be heard on KGO Radio on
Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. Phil Matier can be seen regularly
on KRON 4 News, and also on Sunday night at 9:30 on his own show, “4
the Record.” Got a tip? Call them at (415) 777-8815 or drop them an
e-mail at matierandross@sfchronicle.com.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/03/27/BAGDLBVFIC1.DTL
(scroll down to last item)

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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NYC ibogaine forum presentations
Date: March 28, 2005 at 12:13:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I do believe there is a funding issue involved as the sloppy weather
on the second day (Monday, also a holiday) kept attendance rather low
and the production “lost money” so to speak.   Is this the kind of
thing some folks on-list would be willing to support via a PayPal
donation?  I noticed MAPS has that option on their web-page.

— Rachel

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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 27, 2005 at 6:47:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com> wrote:
so, I know this is nothing compared to what many of
you have gone
through with H, etc, , but I am trying to simply
stop taking Effexor

Hi Kiersten,

With the exception of Alcohol, Effexor & Friends are
at the top of my list as some of the most difficult to
kick.

When I talk to some people about kicking, (alcohol
and speed mostly), the main obsticle I run into is not
only being prescribed just one anti-dep, but 4 or 5
different ones at the same time.

I too would very much like info or links to info on
different ways to successfully kick effexor and
friends, ibogaine included, in what doses I wonder…

If low doses are effective for helping take edge
off a bit, is it good to do this before kicking the
main objective??

I would love to hear what the answers will be.

jb

Hey does Anyone have any experience with this?
http://www.mapinc.org/newscc/v05/n515/a04.html?397

Scientologists Will ‘Purify’ Drug Addicts – For UKP
$15,000
by Jamie Doward, (27 Mar 2005)

Observer United Kingdom
It boasts an 80 per cent success rate, the rock star
Beck is a fan, and schools are inviting the Narconon
centre into the classroom.  So why are some people
worried? Jamie Doward reports

You have a crack cocaine habit that costs you UKP1,500
a day, forcing you into prostitution.  Someone tells
you about a course that could you get off the drug,
without putting you on substitute medication, but it
costs UKP15,000.  What would you do – especially if
you found out the course was linked to the Church of
Scientology, the controversial creed that boasts John
Travolta and Tom Cruise as followers?

For Danielle Medford, 22, there was no debate.
Ravaged by crack, her body was close to shutdown.
Death was only weeks away.  Her family read about
Narconon on the internet and raised the cash to enrol
her as one of the drug rehabilitation programme’s
first British clients.

Danielle weighed just over seven stone when, she
walked through the doors of the 1920s mansion in a
quiet street in the Sussex town of St Leon ards on
Sea.  Seven weeks later, she weighs 10 stone, she is
off crack and about to go to Barbados on holiday.
When she returns, Danielle wants to work with
schoolchildren to warn them of the dangers of drugs.

‘The course teaches you that you can be anything you
want to be,’ Danielle says with a wide smile.  ‘I hit
the jackpot with Narconon.  I have a brand-new life.
I have a little girl and I neglected her, but not any
more.’

It was only later, as she was finishing her course,
that Danielle became aware of Narconon’s controversial
rep utation.  Its programme, which claims to have
helped ‘purify’ 300,000 people around the world, has
been attacked by mainstream drug experts alarmed at
the way Narconon dispenses massive amounts of vitamins
to its clients above recommended daily limits.  They
point out that Narconon’s claims that it has a success
rate of 80 per cent, are almost impossible to verify
independently, and express concern that the programme
is a recruiting ground for Scientology.

But it is clear that many people fervently believe in
the programme – which they can quit at any time – and,
like Danielle, have become evangelists for it.  Cheers
star Kirstie Alley is now a spokeswoman for the
organisation, which she credits with helping her ditch
her coke habit.  American cult musician Beck played a
Narconon fundraiser in Los Angeles last year.  He told
an interviewer last week: ‘The drug-rehabilitation
programmes have the highest success rate of any in the
world.’

When the St Leonards’ centre held an official opening
three weeks ago, the former manager of the Rolling
Stones, Andrew ‘Loog’ Oldham, a man who did more to
boost the coffers of Colombia’s drug barons than
practically anyone else in the world with his
unfettered cocaine consumption, flew in to praise
Narconon and to thank it for saving his life.

‘I had a rollercoaster of a ride with the Rolling
Stones for five years and then spent 30 years getting
over it,’ he said.  ‘The programme was an amazing
experience for me personally and also because of the
people I met on it.  It was a glorious seven weeks as
the acid came out first, followed by the coke,
morphine derivatives, inoculation poisions as well as_
all of the drugs of life.’

Impressed by such testimony, schools have started
inviting Narconon, a registered charity in the UK,
into their classrooms to warn pupils about drugs.
Students are given pamphlets with information about
the programme and a number to ring if they are worried
that someone is using drugs.

Local government is also hoping to pay for treatment
programmes at the 60-bed clinic.  When The Observer
became the first newspaper to be given access to the
clinic last week, two social services workers were
being given a tour of the building, once an asylum
detention centre.

Already the centre’s claims are having an impact on
other drug rehabilitation centres.  Several clients
interviewed by The Observer said they had opted for
Narconon over The Priory or Clouds – two of Britain’s
most famous rehab centres, whose claims at
successfully treating addictions are far more modest
than the new entrant.

Perhaps Narconon’s claims explain why it charges so
much.  The average course lasts three months and costs
UKP15,000.  But its clients believe it is a small
price to pay.

Ryan Jarvis, 27, developed such a cocaine and alcohol
habit that he could not hold down his carpentry job.
As his life collapsed around him, Ryan left his
partner and their child and fled to Marbella.  He blew
UKP18,000 on a seven-month orgy of drink and drugs
before his father lent him the cash for the Narconon
course.

Ryan, whose worn face belies his age, says: ‘UKP15,000
is not a lot of money.  Since I finished the course
eight weeks ago I haven’t got any problems.  I’m back
with my family and I have my life back.’

He admits he found parts of the course ‘weird’.
‘There was some stuff that wasn’t my cup of tea, but a
lot of it really helped me.  You get out of the course
what you put in.’

To the outsider, the entire programme must seem weird.
Founded in 1966 by William Benitez, an inmate of
Arizona State Prison, Narconon draws heavily on the
teachings of L.  Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer
and the founder of Scientology.

Critics argue Narconon is merely a front for
Scientology.  Hubbard’s teachings and photos adorn the
centre’s walls and the language the staff use is
redolent of Scientologists.  Paul Dolan, the clinic’s
manager, admits he is a Scientologist and confirms
that the centre could not have opened if it had not
been for the generosity of members of the church.
However, he denied suggestions that the clinic’s
profits will be ploughed into Scientology and insisted
they will be invested in rolling the programme out
nationwide, starting with London, Manchester and
Glasgow centres.

Nevertheless, the overlap between the church and the
drug rehabilitation programme alarms Scientology’s
critics.  They point out that each Narconon client
must complete eight books based on Hubbard’s teachings
during their course, which is in three parts –
withdrawal, detoxification and education – and draws
on the Scientology founder’s beliefs about mental and
physical health.

During the withdrawal phase, which typically lasts
five to eight days, a client is put on a course of
vitamins, including huge doses of Niacin and B3, and
given ‘assists’ by staff – Scientology techniques
similar to massages which apparently soothe mental and
physical pain.  ‘Pretty much every other drug
rehabilitation course prescribes drugs.  We don’t,’
says Dolan, a former engineer in the gas industry.

Critics say there is no scientific basis for
Narconon’s programme and are alarmed at the amounts of
vitamins it prescribes.  Dolan dismisses the worries.
‘You could give the people in here up to 1,000 times
the recommended daily dose and it still wouldn’t be a
health threat, because the drugs they have been on
strip the vitamins out of the body.’

Claire Smith ( not her real name ), who says she was
admitted to the centre five weeks ago addicted to
morphine, heroin and crack, claims to be living proof
that addicts don’t need medication to help with their
withdrawal.  ‘I was so ill my body couldn’t take the
vitamins at first,’ she said.  ‘I’d been on methadone
before, but that didn’t work, my whole body just
ached.  But when I came out of the sauna I felt
great.’

The sauna holds almost mystical properties to those
who have completed the Narconon course.  Clients spend
about five hours a day ‘sweating out their toxins’ for
up to three weeks.  Jimmy Mulligan, 48, said he had
been an alcoholic for three decades.  ‘But when you
come out of the sauna for the last time you are free
of everything.’ Now sober, Jimmy’s only regret is that
his time on the course is ending.  ‘I’m not just
saying that, I really mean it.’

Upon arrival at a Narconon programme, all clients are
issued with a Hubbard pamphlet, The Way to Happiness,
A Common Sense Guide to Better Living .  ‘It is in
your power to point the way to a less dangerous and
happier life,’ is the opening maxim.  ‘Be temperate’
is another.  ‘Sex is a big step on the way to
happiness and joy.  There is nothing wrong with it, if
it is followed with faithfulness and decency,’ another
says.

The perfunctory writings are typical of Narconon
manuals.  Yet Narconon believes that Hubbard’s words
hold the key to whether their clients stay off drugs
or drink when they finish the course.  Clients are
encouraged to read dictionaries, not only to make sure
they grasp every word of the teachings, but also to
give them a feeling of empowerment.  ‘I learnt 400
words on my course, words like cognition,’ Danielle
says with pride.  ‘I’ve learnt more here than I learnt
in school.’

Armed with their new education, which also involves
working through problems with clay models and talking
to an ethics counsellor to help develop a moral code,
a Narconon client is deemed ready to face the world
without risk of falling back into addiction.

Many, however, do not seem to want to go very far.  Of
the 15 people who have completed the Narconon course
since the St Leonards’ clinic opened, five are now
working for the company.  Jimmy intends to sign up as
an employee when he finishes the programme.

Lucy Graham, 22, who says she was on the verge of
suicide because of binge drinking and bulimia, went
home to Swindon after the course.  ‘But I really
wanted to come back.  It’s made such a difference to
my life.  I’m now training to be a public relations
manager for Narconon.’

Narconon, it seems, may set its clients free, but they
don’t want to be free of Narconon.  As Hubbard writes:
‘The way to happiness is a high-speed road to those
who know where the edges are.’

To its believers, Narconon knows exactly where those
edges are.

How to beat an addiction

The 12 steps

Chiefly used by recovering alcoholics, 12 Steps
encourages addicts to admit they are powerless without
alcohol and that their lives have become unmanageable.
Through a mixture of prayer and meditation, addicts
improve their contact with God to gain the strength to
break free of their addiction.

The Thamkrabok monastery

The Thailand drug rehabilitation centre offers the
toughest recovery regime in the world.  The rock star
Pete Doherty visited the monastery in an attempt to
rid himself of his crack cocaine habit, but didn’t
last the course.  Addicts are put through a series of
bamboo floggings, prayers and manual labour which is
designed to cleanse them physically and mentally.

The Priory

The UK’s most famous rehab centre offers a range of
therapies for addicts, most of whom will have to pay
for its services.  A personalised addiction treatment
programme will cost around UKP25,000.

Acupuncture

The use of auricular ( ear ) acupuncture in treating
acute drug withdrawal began in Hong Kong in 1972.  Its
practical application in alcohol and drug treatment
evolved at New York City’s Lincoln Hospital during the
Seventies and is now used by 2,000 clinics worldwide.
Powered by MAPMAP posted-by: Derek

Pubdate: Sun, 27 Mar 2005
Source: Observer, The (UK)
Copyright: 2005 The Observer
Contact: letters@observer.co.uk
Website: http://www.observer.co.uk/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/315
Author: Jamie Doward
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/rehab.htm (Treatment)

and I every time I get down to two days without, I
become dizzy, the
white noise in my head gets turned up to eleven, and
I can’t stay
awake. I tried to go off a couple of weeks ago and
this happened, so
the doc gave me a low dose of prozac that I have
been on now for a
week, and her plan was that I could then quit the
Effexor cold. Now the
zaps are milder, but I can do nothing but sleep and
listen to white
noise and the world looks very black and I feel a
little crazy.

I had a dream last week that since I was going to
Florida that I should
go to the Caribbean to do an iboga ceremony. Is it
possible that iboga
can help me with this? What do you think?
thanks,
kiersten
On Mar 23, 2005, at 7:12 PM, Jasen Chamoun wrote:

Hey BB,

How you doing matey. My name is Jasen, I had been
(had,…WOW)
addicted to Methadone and heroin for 23 years.
Since the
age of 15 (first serious habit). I live in
Australia. I spoke to many
understanding people on the list for a few months
before going to
Amsterdam Holland to have the treatment with
Sara. I was on 60mg at
the time and also double and triple dosed a few
days
leading up to getting to Sara’s.

Sara gave me the “extract” Iboga. I was at Sara’s
for 27 days. The
“Iboga'” helped me in many ways, one of which was
to relieve
me of at least 85% of the withdrawals.

The good thing about Iboga’ is that it seems to
help with some of the
underlying reasons as to the addiction in the
first place, it did for
me anyway. It also seems to give you more
understanding and it filled
me with love,..love in very generous amounts. It
really was a
wonderfull medicine for me.

I am now going into my fourth month,…free of all
addiction and I am
loving it. The residual withdrawals for me stuck
with me for
quite a while,….but you know what,..it is not
like “hanging out” it
is like you know you are a little unwell,..like
you have the flu, and
you will get better. It gives you strength.

One very important thing is “aftercare”. Organise
yourself in a way
where you will not be around your old “using”
mates, and your
enviroment is different when you get home. Iboga
resets your life and
gives you the opportunity to take a different path
if you so
choose. It did for me.

If you have any questions, I am here for you, as
are many others. Be
well BB.

I am strong.

love,

Jasen.

—– Original Message —– From: “bb”
<bbburtnick@webtv.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?

I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have
signed on in hopes of
discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from
methadone. Then of course
is
the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention
proper application.
But
first of all is the question of whether there is
any genuine value for
meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake
comparatively, if you
don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust
me). Seems
“rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping,
unless perhaps if the
problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life.
So does ibogaine
differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal
anyway?
Respectfully-bb

—————————————————————-

-=[/

If you are squeamish: don’t prod the beach rubble.

–Sappho
—————–=[/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 27, 2005 at 5:34:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey people,

so, I know this is nothing compared to what many of you have gone through with H, etc, , but I am trying to simply stop taking Effexor and I every time I get down to two days without, I become dizzy, the white noise in my head gets turned up to eleven, and I can’t stay awake. I tried to go off a couple of weeks ago and this happened, so the doc gave me a low dose of prozac that I have been on now for a week, and her plan was that I could then quit the Effexor cold. Now the zaps are milder, but I can do nothing but sleep and listen to white noise and the world looks very black and I feel a little crazy.

I had a dream last week that since I was going to Florida that I should go to the Caribbean to do an iboga ceremony. Is it possible that iboga can help me with this? What do you think?
thanks,
kiersten
On Mar 23, 2005, at 7:12 PM, Jasen Chamoun wrote:

Hey BB,

How you doing matey. My name is Jasen, I had been (had,…WOW) addicted to Methadone and heroin for 23 years. Since the
age of 15 (first serious habit). I live in Australia. I spoke to many understanding people on the list for a few months before going to
Amsterdam Holland to have the treatment with Sara. I was on 60mg at the time and also double and triple dosed a few days
leading up to getting to Sara’s.

Sara gave me the “extract” Iboga. I was at Sara’s for 27 days. The “Iboga'” helped me in many ways, one of which was to relieve
me of at least 85% of the withdrawals.

The good thing about Iboga’ is that it seems to help with some of the underlying reasons as to the addiction in the first place, it did for
me anyway. It also seems to give you more understanding and it filled me with love,..love in very generous amounts. It really was a
wonderfull medicine for me.

I am now going into my fourth month,…free of all addiction and I am loving it. The residual withdrawals for me stuck with me for
quite a while,….but you know what,..it is not like “hanging out” it is like you know you are a little unwell,..like you have the flu, and
you will get better. It gives you strength.

One very important thing is “aftercare”. Organise yourself in a way where you will not be around your old “using” mates, and your
enviroment is different when you get home. Iboga resets your life and gives you the opportunity to take a different path if you so
choose. It did for me.

If you have any questions, I am here for you, as are many others. Be well BB.

I am strong.

love,
Jasen.

—– Original Message —– From: “bb” <bbburtnick@webtv.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?

I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have signed on in hopes of
discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from methadone. Then of course is
the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention proper application. But
first of all is the question of whether there is any genuine value for
meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake comparatively, if you
don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust me). Seems
“rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping, unless perhaps if the
problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life. So does ibogaine
differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal anyway?
Respectfully-bb

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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If you are squeamish: don’t prod the beach rubble.

–Sappho

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 27, 2005 at 5:30:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, you are on your game today. I have to say something here to Nick. I’ve been watching this thing with Peter for a while now, and have come to some conclusions. Or at least I have come to some irrational assumptions, or whatever. Let me ask some questions here. Where is Peter located….. who is the loudest Ibogaine proponent in England…… where would Peter get the idea that we are Voodoo Priests wanting to drag people out of their houses and made clean? Things that make you say what the fuck aint it? I’m sorry if I offend you, acually I think that you are a very nessesary part of this whole growing thing that is going on with Ibogaine. I can tell that you care very deeply for people, even to the point of pissing them off to help them. Problem is that you remind me of the guy who ran the program I went throug in 77 to 80. He was a dick, but he was way intellegent, and I still think about what he said to me then. This debate has been very good for all involved, still I can’t see what difference it makes. Maybe more will be revealed later, but right now it’s getting to be a bit of a drag. I know I had a hand in starting all this, but it just seemed like the thing to do at the time. Maybe someone smarter than me can gather the facts, draw some conclusions, and lets get down to helping people with what we have learned from this.         Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 27, 2005 at 4:11:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/27/05 11:38:48 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

Thus I would like to ask you, assuming my understanding of your thesis
is correct, if you could explain a little further how you create from your
reasoning a negative attribution to the concept of “addiction,” and other
ideas such as “voodoo priests” and the like. Are you proposing a different
way for our experience of selfhood to actualize? Or would you dispute that
consciousness needs any organizing principle at all? BTW, I also battle
with these ideas, and a seeming innate need within to “make things better.”
I am not seeking merely to challenge you or put your ideas down.

Hi Nick,

I just want to comment as you may be, that “voodoo priests” carries as much
bias as “addiction”.  Both reflect an inherrent condemnation of the individuals
so identified.

Howard

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 27, 2005 at 4:02:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/27/05 10:58:35 AM, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:

Why is this aspect of treating the underlying disease (if one exists) via
eboga spirituality something to be undermined or played down? Are you willing
to meet halfway and agree that ibogaine has perhaps revolutionary properties
to deal with underlying disease, if on the other hand the ibo camp can
change its language to describe ibogaine as an addiction interruptor and
not a cure for addiction?

Hi Lee,

Among the language that I believe Peter objects to is “addiction” and
basically I agree with him.  The language itself is a condemnation of the individual
and their associated learned behavior.  In a perfect world I would want the
world rid of the bias imposed by  prohibitionism and to have ibogaine available.
As it is, we have a lot of bias and not much ibogaine.

Howard

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 27, 2005 at 11:37:36 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 27 March 2005 16:58
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

Hi Nick,

Thanks for taking the time to explain this one to me. I wrote a long reply to your email but decided not to post it. I am going to wait a while longer until my head is clearer on my motives. Sometimes I have a strong reaction to something and I would rather understand the reaction than the ideas it puts in my head. Love is the most important thing – is it not?

Lee

Hi Lee,

I used to think Love was the most important thing, but these days I try and go more for awareness. That’s just me. BTW, I am also still busy with Peter and his ideas. I read an interesting article of his called “Is the addiction doctor the voodoo priest of Western man?”, online at http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.addiction.html, and wrote him a question to try and grasp more where he’s coming from.

Nick

Dear Peter,
I hope you won’t mind me writing to you again. I was reading your fascinating article “Is the addiction doctor the voodoo priest of Western man?” in an attempt to gain a deeper insight into your views on the idea of addiction, and wanted to ask you for a little clarification.
One thing that struck me was your observation that the concept of “individuality,” that nowadays exerts so much influence upon human culture, appears to have arisen around the time of the Reformation in sixteenth century Europe. From this, as I understand it, you trace the arrival of the concept of “addiction” as an inevitable by-product of this development, arising through the need of the psyche that is programmed to seek individuality to marginalize and reject those entities which appear to threaten the experience of individuality. As I see it, and I may be wrong, this is the central thrust of your thesis.
What intrigued was the way in which you appeared to attribute a moral tone to this development, that you seemed to assign to this arising shift in how we view ourselves certain negative implications. I say this as it strikes me that our whole experience of having a personal existence, of life “happening to us,” may be constructed by the mind in many ways, whether purely individual or culturally influenced; whether having overtly dualistic or religious aspects or not; whether promising “development” or staticity, and that all one can say about this process of attribution is that, ultimately, it is entirely autonomous, that it is all simply arising without prejudice.
Thus I would like to ask you, assuming my understanding of your thesis is correct, if you could explain a little further how you create from your reasoning a negative attribution to the concept of “addiction,” and other ideas such as “voodoo priests” and the like. Are you proposing a different way for our experience of selfhood to actualize? Or would you dispute that consciousness needs any organizing principle at all? BTW, I also battle with these ideas, and a seeming innate need within to “make things better.” I am not seeking merely to challenge you or put your ideas down.
Grateful if you can spare the time to explain more of your ideas to me or point me to a source that would do the same. I will happily not copy any replies you might make to any discussion lists or other individuals, unless you ok this.
Regards
Nick Sandberg
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 27, 2005 at 11:00:59 AM EST
To: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Cc: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter,
Thanks for your reply.
I am going to go back over your material in time and try and seperate my reaction to it from the issues.
Hopefully I will get to a reasonable point of understanding and appreciate better what you stand for and the work you do.
In the meantime I wish you well and thank you for the time you have taken.
Lee

Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl> wrote:
Lee, thanks for taking the trouble and your reaction.
But, as I think I can not make my position clearer than I did, time is up.
Best
pc

At 12:49 +0000 23-03-2005, Lee Albert wrote:
Hi Peter,

Having had such a strong reaction to your views and not wishing to be a bigot I feel obliged to try and understand your position a little better. I hope you will be good enough to read what I have wrote here as I have given it a little thought. I guess if it were not for the spiritual aspects of the discussion I would not have ever got into this in the first place but here goes.

Disease vs Dependency

It seems to me that what you are arguing is that the label of addiction as disease as opposed to the label of addiction as dependency, feeds into the “enemy” camps view that drugs should be outlawed as they support a disease and are a disease.

By describing drug addiction as a straightforward physical dependence we cease to associate the label of diseased to someone who is drug dependent. (Of course the person who is dependent may have underlying diseases (psycho-spiritual for example) which keeps the dependence in place. You accept that I believe. Of course they theoretically may not.)

Thus in fighting for the right to take drugs we are fighting not to promote a disease but to give people choice when we remove the label of disease.

I like that manner of seeing things as it removes a lot of stigma attached to drug taking and allows those who are not suffering from an addiction to not be labeled diseased.

Thus it would be important to you that the ibo-camp revise their language of addiction as disease, and instead refer to addiction as dependence, as ibogaine is growing in strength and popularity and therefore a popularised disease model could undermine your arguments for drug liberalisation.

Ibogaine as Cure or Ibogaine as Addiction Interruptor

Within your view ibogaine can then be considered a tool for addition interruption but the problem comes in for you (as I see it) when ibogaine advocates describe their work as a cure for addiction. To remain within your viewpoint they should describe it as addiction interruption.

Ibogaine as Addiction Interruption

If we use this description of ibogaine then the question of its spirituality becomes an awkward issue. What point does it serve? If it is curing something other than addiction as dependency then that suggests a disease. What is the disease? If its not the dependency then what is it?

Ok, I agree it is not the dependency. I have many times stated that healing can involve a relapse into dependence but that that should not be seen as a failure to heal but simply a step along the way – if your aim is to heal the underlying issues supporting the dependence which will emerge with verocity from time to time. (Some argue that it can be purely genetic.)

Conclusion

We seem to both agree that the problem is not the addiction as such but what lies behind or supports it, i.e. addiction is not the disease.

In that case I would say we could label ibogaine as an addiction interruptor which also opens the door to a psycho-spiritual realm which allows the taker to examine & heal with the right intention the underlying reasons why they are unable to simply taper off their dependence as you suggest and become drug free if that is what they wish.

Saying that as things stand the current language of the ibo-camp appears to be the elimination of drugs as opposed to the liberalisation of drug policies which you advocate.

Question:

Why is this aspect of treating the underlying disease (if one exists) via eboga spirituality something to be undermined or played down? Are you willing to meet halfway and agree that ibogaine has perhaps revolutionary properties to deal with underlying disease, if on the other hand the ibo camp can change its language to describe ibogaine as an addiction interruptor and not a cure for addiction?

With love,

Lee

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 27, 2005 at 10:57:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Nick,

Thanks for taking the time to explain this one to me. I wrote a long reply to your email but decided not to post it. I am going to wait a while longer until my head is clearer on my motives. Sometimes I have a strong reaction to something and I would rather understand the reaction than the ideas it puts in my head. Love is the most important thing – is it not?

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 23 March 2005 13:31
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

Hi Peter,

Having had such a strong reaction to your views and not wishing to be a bigot I feel obliged to try and understand your position a little better. I hope you will be good enough to read what I have wrote here as I have given it a little thought. I guess if it were not for the spiritual aspects of the discussion I would not have ever got into this in the first place but here goes.

Disease vs Dependency

It seems to me that what you are arguing is that the label of addiction as disease as opposed to the label of addiction as dependency, feeds into the “enemy” camps view that drugs should be outlawed as they support a disease and are a disease.

By describing drug addiction as a straightforward physical dependence we cease to associate the label of diseased to someone who is drug dependent. (Of course the person who is dependent may have underlying diseases (psycho-spiritual for example) which keeps the dependence in place. You accept that I believe. Of course they theoretically may not.)

Hey Lee,

Though it’s a bit crazy to start debating over what Peter’s views MIGHT be, I think what he was saying was that the whole concept of addiction or dependency ITSELF is invalid. These are just medical labels, given by bigots, to perfectly healthy individuals merely altering their daily consciousness through use of substances as is their inalienable right as free people. The whole concept of addiction or dependence is thus invalid.

What you or I might label “dependency” I think he would consider simply “learned behaviour,” no different from any other learned behaviour, drug-oriented or otherwise. There’s quite a few people out there who believe this. It’s a good way of looking things, I think.

If it’s so then you need to rewrite this piece avoiding terms like “dependency.” Could be interesting! (Of course, the above might not be his view.)

Where we got to, in debating, was Howard pointing out that the language used by many ibogaine proponents, rooted in the medical phraseology of “addiction” that Peter so resents, arose originally from the action of bringing greater awareness of ibogaine’s dependence-breaking characteristics to the medical community; that you had to use their language to talk to them. At this point Dr Cohen broke off communications, stating to me, seemingly of Howard’s view, that it was the “language of the medical entrepreneur within a deeply and devout prohibitionist system.” Really a shame the debate didn’t continue, as it is interesting.

I guess the central questions for me are, “Is it wrong to bring ibogaine to the market to treat a condition the acceptance of the existence of which may exacerbate the condition itself? Which is truly best, to destroy the mindset that labels some people as dependent, or to treat dependence?”

Nick

Thus in fighting for the right to take drugs we are fighting not to promote a disease but to give people choice when we remove the label of disease.

I like that manner of seeing things as it removes a lot of stigma attached to drug taking and allows those who are not suffering from an addiction to not be labeled diseased.

Thus it would be important to you that the ibo-camp revise their language of addiction as disease, and instead refer to addiction as dependence, as ibogaine is growing in strength and popularity and therefore a popularised disease model could undermine your arguments for drug liberalisation.

Ibogaine as Cure or Ibogaine as Addiction Interruptor

Within your view ibogaine can then be considered a tool for addition interruption but the problem comes in for you (as I see it) when ibogaine advocates describe their work as a cure for addiction. To remain within your viewpoint they should describe it as addiction interruption.

Ibogaine as Addiction Interruption

If we use this description of ibogaine then the question of its spirituality becomes an awkward issue. What point does it serve? If it is curing something other than addiction as dependency then that suggests a disease. What is the disease? If its not the dependency then what is it?

Ok, I agree it is not the dependency. I have many times stated that healing can involve a relapse into dependence but that that should not be seen as a failure to heal but simply a step along the way – if your aim is to heal the underlying issues supporting the dependence which will emerge with verocity from time to time. (Some argue that it can be purely genetic.)

Conclusion

We seem to both agree that the problem is not the addiction as such but what lies behind or supports it, i.e. addiction is not the disease.

In that case I would say we could label ibogaine as an addiction interruptor which also opens the door to a psycho-spiritual realm which allows the taker to examine & heal with the right intention the underlying reasons why they are unable to simply taper off their dependence as you suggest and become drug free if that is what they wish.

Saying that as things stand the current language of the ibo-camp appears to be the elimination of drugs as opposed to the liberalisation of drug policies which you advocate.

Question:

Why is this aspect of treating the underlying disease (if one exists) via eboga spirituality something to be undermined or played down? Are you willing to meet halfway and agree that ibogaine has perhaps revolutionary properties to deal with underlying disease, if on the other hand the ibo camp can change its language to describe ibogaine as an addiction interruptor and not a cure for addiction?

With love,

Lee

PS I sent this email to Peter seperately.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] query from TIMES-man
Date: March 26, 2005 at 2:20:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mar 25, 2005, at 5:25 PM, jon wrote:

Well, it’s important to keep in mind that methadone itself is a very
useful pharmacotherapy. That is, there isn’t anything wrong with
methadone’s effects as a drug, its long half-life makes it an ideal
substitution therapy.

The problems with methadone arise from the way that it’s administered,
especially in the United States. By this I’m referring to the fact that it
can only be given by designated methadone clinics, and these clinics
typically enact policies that are counterproductive; such as prescribing
doses well below what would be effective, requiring patients to come every
day to receive their medicine, requiring clean urine screens, etc.

The main advantage that buprenorphine has over methadone isn’t anything
related to the pharmacological effects of either drug, but rather simply
that buprenorphine has been approved for prescription by general
physicians.
Physicians tend to have somewhat more realistic expectations of their
patients that methadone clinics do, and so patient compliance is improved,
which can lead to improved outcomes.

If you look at the two drugs solely by virute of their chemical
properties, some patients will react to one better than the other, just as
some people suffering from depression will respond better to Paxil than
Prozac and vice versa, or as some people suffering from a sprained ankle
will respond to Advil better than Tylenol and vice versa. Niether is a
“better drug” than the other, and both should be available treatment
options due to the variance of the patient populations.

As far as trends go, at least in the United States, both methadone and
buprenorphine are highly underutilized. Ideally, we will see an increase
in use of both drugs, because at the moment, most people who would benefit
from substitution therapy aren’t getting either. This is largely a result
of the politicalization of the “drug problem”, politicians fear looking
“soft on drugs”, even when those measures that are considered by some to
be “soft on drugs” (such as substitution therapy, needle exchanges, etc)
are the very measures that have been consistently shown to be of the
greatest benefit to public health. We can only hope that in the future
science will dictate more solutions than the whims of politicians.

Jon Freedlander, MA Cand
Towson University
Baltimore, MD

This is a good reply, but I was hoping some folks on the list who’d personally experienced both bupe and methadone could fill Anahad in on the difference in the way they FEEL, and the difference of living with each.

Dana/cnw

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (WAY OT) Fw: [NEWSROOM-L] Soft tissue found inside T. Rex fossil startles researchers
Date: March 26, 2005 at 9:15:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
This is totally and completely off topic, but it’s just so damned cool I had to pass it on. Thanks to Jules for bringing this to my attention, as I’m mentioning it in the forward to my current book project

(which btw Jules, you should be getting in touch with me about very sooner than later, no? Or am I misremembering, and what I have now, the A Brief History of Ekab, is your final submission?)

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Newsroom-l” <newsroom-l@NETSPACE.ORG>
To: <NEWSROOM-L@LISTS.NETSPACE.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: [NEWSROOM-L] Soft tissue found inside T. Rex fossil startles researchers

<http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-tyranno25mar25,0,7641410.story?coll=la-home-headlines>
THE NATION
Soft Tissue Discovered in Bone of a Dinosaur
Intact after 70 million years, bits of a T. rex’s hind leg startle and
intrigue researchers.
By Robert Lee Hotz
Times Staff Writer

March 25, 2005

[Excerpts]

In bone blasted from Montana sandstone, fossil hunters for the first
time have discovered the microscopic soft tissue of a Tyrannosaurus rex,
preserved almost unaltered inside a bone since the dinosaur died 70
million years ago, scientists announced Thursday.

Scientists at North Carolina State University and at Montana State
University’s Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman found brownish oblong
cells, elastic threads of veins and pliable dabs of red bone marrow in
the core of a stout hind leg, the researchers reported in the journal
Science.

The translucent vessels were so elastic that when one was stretched out
and then released, it snapped back like a rubber band.

“To my knowledge, preservation to this extent has not been noted in
dinosaurs before,” said Mary H. Schweitzer, a paleontologist at North
Carolina State University in Raleigh.

“The tissues are still soft,” said Schweitzer, who led the research
team. “The microstructures that look like cells are preserved in every way.”

Under a scanning electron microscope, these dinosaur tissues — minute
remains of the mightiest of Earth’s ancient carnivores — were “virtually
identical” to those of a modern ostrich.

If confirmed by other researchers, the find could force scientists to
reconsider how all fossils are formed.

Until now, scientists have believed that bones fossilized when minerals
gradually replaced organic material. Under current theories, organic
molecules should not last more than 100,000 years.

“Our theories don’t allow for this,” Schweitzer said.


JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764 77501-Cancun Q. Roo Mexico
Mad Laughter, Fragments of a Life in Progress
Now available at http://www.lulu.com/jules

Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists
http://www.newsroom-l.net/blog

NetSpace LISTSERV(R) software donated by L-Soft, Inc.   http://www.lsoft.com

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FYI
Date: March 26, 2005 at 7:33:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Methadone=barless prison.  Doctors have the audacity to tell patients they can be free from methadone in a  reletively short time while their statics show a complete diffent picture.  Methadone is a vicious cycle of going up and down and using everything in between.

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: marcus israel <vesch69@yahoo.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: anahad@nytimes.com CC: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: [Ibogaine] FYI Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:50:47 -0800 (PST) Hello there, Unfortunately, i don’t think you should hold your breath regarding The demise of Methadone clinics.. It is a system designed to fail (the opiate addict) and so ensures the longevity and prosperity of the providers (and, of course, the pharmaceutical industry) Having been on Methadone for over 10 years (though now off thank G-d) i am well qualified to make this , if i might say, bold and accurate assessment..Easily, eight out of ten “clients” of methadone maintenance programs do not reach the purported goal of their application- abstinence from (not only) heroin,..and although they might not readily admit-the majority of methadone programs are completely tolerant of poly-substance abuse by their patients-something they are unequivically aware of as they all conduct regular weekly urinalysis tests. The potential for arresting opiate (and other drug) dependance through treatments (ibogaine in particular) is something that clinics are conscious of, and, at best, encouraging interested clients to pursue. MY last stand with methadone was at a NYC program which, to my benefit, actually helped to facilitate my ibogaine treatment.. and they did this, obviously, because (besides being tired of me) the availability of ibogaine treatments in no way posed a threat to their seemingly fixed place in our world. While i didn’t cease my substance abuse immediately after my treatment, i strongly bear testimony to the incredulous power of Ibogaine to interrupt acute withdrawl (not to mention it’s other invaluable properties)…MArcus L. Israel e-mail:vesch69@aol.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: marcus israel <vesch69@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] FYI
Date: March 26, 2005 at 6:50:47 PM EST
To: anahad@nytimes.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello there,
Unfortunately, i don’t think you should hold your
breath regarding The demise of Methadone clinics..
It is a system designed to fail (the opiate addict)
and so ensures the longevity and prosperity of the
providers (and, of course, the pharmaceutical
industry)
Having been on Methadone for over 10 years (though now
off thank G-d) i am well qualified to make this , if i
might say, bold and accurate assessment..Easily, eight
out of ten “clients” of methadone maintenance programs
do not reach the purported goal of their application-
abstinence from (not only) heroin,..and although they
might not readily admit-the majority of methadone
programs are completely tolerant of poly-substance
abuse by their patients-something they are
unequivically aware of as they all conduct regular
weekly urinalysis tests.
The potential for arresting opiate (and other drug)
dependance through treatments (ibogaine in particular)

is something that clinics are conscious of, and, at
best, encouraging interested clients to pursue.  MY
last stand with methadone was at a NYC program which,
to my benefit, actually helped to facilitate my
ibogaine treatment.. and they did this, obviously,
because (besides being tired of me) the availability
of ibogaine treatments in no way posed a threat to
their seemingly fixed place in our world.
While i didn’t cease my substance abuse immediately
after my treatment, i strongly bear testimony to the
incredulous power of Ibogaine to interrupt acute
withdrawl (not to mention it’s other invaluable
properties)…MArcus L. Israel
e-mail:vesch69@aol.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

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From: “mark connors” <darkmattersfo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] meth = meth
Date: March 25, 2005 at 10:22:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

this may have been addressed before. I appologize if it has…

in my circles Meth = methamphetine.

HOWEVER

My ex is enrolled in a Meth = methadone program

In SF, many of us call methamphetamine CRACK, even though crack is something different!

Terms, terms terms

My request is to ask people to spell it out (Methadone, Methamphetamine, Crack cocaine) in subject titles. It would help me find threads that are specifically pertinent to my own issues.

As one who is challenged by poor memory and attention, I would really appreciate it.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] query from TIMES-man
Date: March 25, 2005 at 5:25:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: anahad@nytimes.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well, it’s important to keep in mind that methadone itself is a very
useful pharmacotherapy. That is, there isn’t anything wrong with
methadone’s effects as a drug, its long half-life makes it an ideal
substitution therapy.

The problems with methadone arise from the way that it’s administered,
especially in the United States. By this I’m referring to the fact that it
can only be given by designated methadone clinics, and these clinics
typically enact policies that are counterproductive; such as prescribing
doses well below what would be effective, requiring patients to come every
day to receive their medicine, requiring clean urine screens, etc.

The main advantage that buprenorphine has over methadone isn’t anything
related to the pharmacological effects of either drug, but rather simply
that buprenorphine has been approved for prescription by general
physicians.
Physicians tend to have somewhat more realistic expectations of their
patients that methadone clinics do, and so patient compliance is improved,
which can lead to improved outcomes.

If you look at the two drugs solely by virute of their chemical
properties, some patients will react to one better than the other, just as
some people suffering from depression will respond better to Paxil than
Prozac and vice versa, or as some people suffering from a sprained ankle
will respond to Advil better than Tylenol and vice versa. Niether is a
“better drug” than the other, and both should be available treatment
options due to the variance of the patient populations.

As far as trends go, at least in the United States, both methadone and
buprenorphine are highly underutilized. Ideally, we will see an increase
in use of both drugs, because at the moment, most people who would benefit
from substitution therapy aren’t getting either. This is largely a result
of the politicalization of the “drug problem”, politicians fear looking
“soft on drugs”, even when those measures that are considered by some to
be “soft on drugs” (such as substitution therapy, needle exchanges, etc)
are the very measures that have been consistently shown to be of the
greatest benefit to public health. We can only hope that in the future
science will dictate more solutions than the whims of politicians.

Jon Freedlander, MA Cand
Towson University
Baltimore, MD

I’m posting this response by Anahad O’Connor of the New York Times in
hopes that some of you with personal experience can better answer  his
question than I. I started corresponding with him after his article in
the Science Times repeated the outdated view of dopamine as reward
instead of craving, hoping that I could get a whole science section
piece on the new science involving MGlur5, and Glick’s
habenulo-perduncular pathway, etc. But he’s moving to the Metro section
instead, and I fear would only write some hysteria-generating piece on
underground ibogaine treatments–

anahad@nytimes.com wrote:
i wonder what the fate of methadone is now. if people are slowly
turning to ibogaine, and buprenorphine is now being prescribed widely,
then shouldn’t methadone clinics be on the way out? or at least the
number of people on it should be declining. do you know if there’s any
sort of trend emerging here?

I don’t think bup is a piece of cake either. You should reply to list,
but cc him at the same time, a la P.C.

Dana/cnw

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga legalization
Date: March 25, 2005 at 5:20:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mar 24, 2005, at 8:47 PM, Carlton B wrote:

Just a question… what is currently being done to legalize iboga in the US?   Is there any sort of legal fund or political action group undertaking any activism in this regard?

Cures not Wars. That’s us. I’m lobbying Congress. Call me at 212-677-4899.

Dana/cnw

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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga legalization
Date: March 25, 2005 at 5:00:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I understand that FDA testing was taking place in the early 1990’s until
someone died.  Does anyone know what happened with that?  Was the person
already in poor health, or is ibogaine toxic in certain situations or
combinations?

The FDA Phase I trials ended due to lack of funding, not because of
ibogaine-related deaths (though there have been several recorded). I
believe funding has been secured to begin the trials again, but I’m not
sure when that’s supposed to happen.

Ibogaine is contraindicated for people with heart problems, and some liver
problems, due to an increased risk of fatality in these populations. In
general, ibogaine treatment is safer than many conventional medical
treatments, but that doesn’t mean it’s without risk. As far as I know,
there have been somewhere between 5 and 10 deaths related to ibogaine,
though not all of those were conclusively because of the ibogaine.

when speaking of ibogaine related fatalities, it’s important to put the
number into perspective. for example, about 2,500 americans die every year
because of aspirin. while there is a certain amount of risk involved in
being treated with ibogaine, it can be minimised by having a complete
physical with heart and liver tests prior to being treated. it’s also very
important to be careful about mixing ibogaine and opiates; a couple of the
known fatalities were probably a result of ibogaine’s effect of decreasing
opiate tolerance.

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] query from TIMES-man
Date: March 25, 2005 at 4:58:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m posting this response by Anahad O’Connor of the New York Times in hopes that some of you with personal experience can better answer  his question than I. I started corresponding with him after his article in the Science Times repeated the outdated view of dopamine as reward instead of craving, hoping that I could get a whole science section piece on the new science involving MGlur5, and Glick’s habenulo-perduncular pathway, etc. But he’s moving to the Metro section instead, and I fear would only write some hysteria-generating piece on underground ibogaine treatments–

anahad@nytimes.com wrote:
i wonder what the fate of methadone is now. if people are slowly turning to ibogaine, and buprenorphine is now being prescribed widely, then shouldn’t methadone clinics be on the way out? or at least the number of people on it should be declining. do you know if there’s any sort of trend emerging here?

I don’t think bup is a piece of cake either. You should reply to list, but cc him at the same time, a la P.C.

Dana/cnw

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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 25, 2005 at 11:35:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, here I go having to explain myself again. I embrace the concept of the Bwiti being in charge because it seems to me that Iboga is bigger than just an addiction interrupter. I use the analogy of the Bwiti/pygmies not in the literal terms always (most of the time, because that is my perception of what happened on my journey) but along with AA and having faith and acceptance of the inevitable. Some things you just can’t control, and to have a little faith in the intangible cool things that come with Ibogaine is not a bad thing in my humble opinion. I hope that we never become so intellectually advanced that we have figured out every little nuance of an Ibogaine experience. That would take the Rock out of the Roll dude. ‘Course I haven’t been “clean” for 50 years, and I may not be qualified to talk about it, butt fuck it, there it is.        Randy

From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga legalization
Date: March 25, 2005 at 9:18:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, there is something being done just read the village voice.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 25, 2005 at 4:44:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: 24 March 2005 18:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?

In a message dated 3/23/05 9:18:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, freedomroot@gmail.com writes:
Finally, my anecdotal sense, well on the mystic range of how people
approach this treatment, is that the Bwiti are “in charge” of what’s
going down… you aren’t just taking a Pill (or six or twelve), you
are crossing a psychic threshold where surrender and spirit are not
abstract but real and powerfully present
My take is – You’re in charge of the process. You can’t lay responsibility with anyone else. If it helps you to imagine that some all-powerful psychic A-team is out there looking out for you, then, for sure, go for it. But you’re going to come back to you anyway.

The only person you can surrender to is You, and it’s not you that does that! Surrender isn’t a real verb. That’s how I see it.

Nick

From: Carlton B <carltonb@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Iboga legalization
Date: March 24, 2005 at 8:47:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just a question… what is currently being done to legalize iboga in the US?   Is there any sort of legal fund or political action group undertaking any activism in this regard?
I understand that FDA testing was taking place in the early 1990’s until someone died.  Does anyone know what happened with that?  Was the person already in poor health, or is ibogaine toxic in certain situations or combinations?
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] My Bro’
Date: March 24, 2005 at 8:42:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Randy,

My friend, I love to hear from you and I think of you over there fighting the fight for Ibogaine, preparing to risk yourself for the sake of helping others,
helping as we have been helped. You are the man. I feel close to you.

love to you my bro’
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.

Jasen, it’s good to see your positive vibe dude. You have a way of putting things in perspective that I relate to. Thanx.                Randy

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detoxing from Methadone. Matt
Date: March 24, 2005 at 7:36:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Matt,

You are most welcome, thankyou. When I saw my brother it felt like he was in another frequency,..so to say, like tuning a radio in to another station.

All I felt when I saw him was an awesome love. My understanding was that he was “at home”, I am unsure if he was also back here on earth, however
he most definitely was “somewhere else”, on another plain, dimension,…frequency. The dimension was like a liquid light, like in-between water
and air,…as if they were mixed together somehow.

His head moved from side to side gently as his liquid light  hair flowed like gentle flames, the love that came from him was filling,..all incompasing,
he spoke with light,..or thought, his mouth did not move,..it was like his head was in water and he was moving it side to side with his hair flowing.

love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detoxing from Methadone.

Hi J
Thanks for sharing.  Awsome story, amazing experience.  When you saw your brother’s head and he said hes living in another dimension waht did you feel>? any thoughts came in to your head>? when he said another dimension did you get a feeling hes there or that hes been born again on this earth or both…….Respect brother

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detoxing from Methadone. Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:58:33 +1000 Hello dear list, I am posting my Iboga’ experience which some of you have already read in bits and pieces. Do whatever you wish with it. I was dosed with the extract of Iboga. For the umpteenth time I was reducing of the Methadone, got down to 25mg then started using( once again). I went up to 60 mg. This was very depressing, wanting to get off the methadone and knowing that I would have to reduce again and go through all that shit all over again. As we know to reduce from 60mg down to 25mg is much easier than from 25mg to 0. If I cannot handle going to 25mg how am I going to go from 25mg to nothing Aaaaaaargh f*ck, I can’t do this anymore, I have been trying for many many years. I was quickly losing interest in living, I just wanted to go home to the other side. Being addicted to opiates for 23 years had become to much to bear. I was at my wits end. I was giving up,..going down fast. One day soon after in utter despair, I had a thought come into my head, “Hang in there, it’s almost over. Being desperate to be pulled out of the ocean of addiction, I held onto the thought. How could this be nearly over, it will take another year at least to reduce of 60mg. The thought kept coming to me over and over again, “hang in there, it’s almost over. I started to get some hope back. I thought the only way this can be over quick is if I find a great rehab” and come straight off. (I believe the voice in my head was my brother who passed on)(He also battled with addiction all his life) I started to search the internet and found this great rehab in the states that uses some of Ron Hubbard’s techniques. Nutrition, Sauna and other things. I had heard of this type of treatment before and was hopeful. I contacted them and spoke to this great guy, I am sorry that I cannot remember his name. This man told me that I need to detox before coming to the rehab’ and advised me of a couple of methods, one of which was the controversial Ibogaine/Iboga. He gave me the “mindvox” Ibogaine site. I logged onto this site and started talking to some of the people and reading as much as I could absorb on Ibogaine. I was fortunate to be able to talk to a few people before treatment during and after, Howard,Randy, Julie, Sean and others. The surge of hope flowing through me again was incredible, I could see a way out. (I am getting goose bumps). I applied for a loan and got it (whew). I spoke to some providers and then rang Sara in Amsterdam. It was booked and organised. I took with me 600mg of physeptone (Methadone in a tablet) and worked out that if I triple dosed for the next 3 days or so I would be finished them as I got to Sara’s, the final stone on opiates before detoxing. I got to Amsterdam airport and was warmly greeted with a hug from Sara. We jumped into the car and drove to her place. I gave Sara what little Physeptone I had left. When I got to Sara’s the fear started to set in, this was it. Shit what am I doing here, I don’t think I can do this. No I can’t do this, I have to go back, for the next few hours I am trying to figure out how I was going back. Sara could see how utterly scared I was and started to calm me. I would have rathered a bear come into the camp to attack as I could have seen what I was facing. I stayed the night and woke in the morning very anxious, f*ck,…no methadone. Mmmm can’t go back and face everyone not having at least tried this. I started to get a little sick in the afternoon and Sara gave me my first dose of 1 gram of Iboga extract. I laid down and after about 1 hour I started to feel relaxed and more at ease with the Iboga, a slight vibrating sensation, knowing this was a very spiritual plant I gave thanks with each dose and asked for guidance.An hour or or two later I was given 1.8 grams. The vibrating became more intense, I felt a low pitch buzzing in my head and a vibrating in my body, very relaxing,..no withdrawals. I was then given 3 grams an hour or two later, the low frequency type of vibrating became more intense, then I found myself in the jungle or somewhere similar. I was on a mat on the ground, there were 7 or 8 tribes people on each side of the mat, they picked me up on the mat and started wobbling it,…wobble wobble wobble,..side to side, I knew they were healing me. I was vibrating,..I saw my cells being vibrated, in my cells were dark blockages, little bits of black in these brilliant white cells, as I was being wobbled side to side I could see my cells vibrating more and more,..ummmmmmmm ummmmmmmmm ummmmmmmmmm, the blackness started to vibrate out of my cells, the dark blockages were being dissipated to the sides of the the cells then disappearing. I was then given 5 grams, after a while there was like an explosion and I found myself on this round medallion type of thing about 8 feet in diameter, like a huge coin. I was spread eagled on this medallion and could not move, arms and legs spread out. One side of this medallion was a brilliant brilliant white and the other side was pitch black. The medallion started to flip whilst going up, whov whov whov whov whov, then it stopped on an angle, facing up at about a 120 degrees. Then it felt like people put there hands inside my body, my bones from my back and then they ripped away with a crack, as this happened the back of the medallion which was pitch black, snapped away and even though I was still spread eagled on the coin, I felt myself falling into this pitch black abyss, feeling of falling falling and at the same time knowing I was also on the medallion feeling safe. The feeling of falling disappeared and I was still on the medallion, the medallion was now only a brilliant white, it started to flip again and go up, whov whov whov whov, making this type of sound as it went up up up. The medallion came to a stop and I was facing this most beautiful light,…love acceptance,..more than light more than love, I do not have the words to explain such a sight,..a vast light,..like a liquid love, so bright so expansive. I was a little concerned and I was told, there is nothing to fear, face the light,..and as I did the light which was everything in that existence, there was nothing else, it started to move towards me and then went through me and ohhhh, what a feeling, I started to get champagne bubbles of light going through me, up from my stomach splitting at the base of my heart and exiting through my shoulders, shring shring shring. It was like I had to be cleansed before going any further,…like trying to mix 14ct gold with 24ct gold,..if you do this you taint the pure gold,..so I was smeltered,..purified so to say. One of my brothers was killed about 2 years ago. As I was in this light I saw his head,..it was moving from side to side with like white flames coming off his head like locks of white liquid light, his mouth did not move but he was speaking to me, there was light coming from his eyes and from his closed mouth, like he was facing a fan and the fan was blowing his hair but it wasn’t hair, he said to me,”You cannot die, you simply leave your body behind and vibrate into another dimension, I am still alive, just in another dimension, if you want to honour my name, live life fully, and I will live through you until you come home.. The love coming from him was incredible, he was incredible,..so beautiful, I still see him clearly. I was shown you are one with everything, I felt it, I was told you can experience anyone that ever was or is, who do you wish to experience? I wanted to feel what it would be like to be Jesus, as I thought this, I was coming into a body from above this being of light that had white light as hair saddling his shoulders, as I entered this body of light I got this tremendous feeling of love coming out of my mouth and outstretched hands, like beacons of light coming from my hands and a tremendous feeling of love and compassion within and being sent out to the world, wow, I fell in love with love. Pure and utter bliss. As I woke up I felt as if my heart was outside of my body, it was turned inside out and twisted a little,..like a gene. I went to get up and as I did it felt like I would leave my heart behind if I moved to fast. Like your stomach would feel as you go down a rollercoaster. For the next 24 hours or so I had to cradle my heart out side of my body, like it was my hearts spirit. I would lay down cradling what looked like an empty space above my chest which I felt was my heart outside my body. It felt red raw, inside out,..twisted and it hurt. After about 24 hours or so my heart felt like it was untwisting and going back inside me.,..then something started to fill my heart with what looked and felt like liquid golden honey, they filled it until my heart overflowed with love I could feel the liquid honey overflowing and trickling down, the feeling was so filling, the love I felt was more than I can describe. For the next 7 days I had no withdrawals. My energy was non existent and I could not sleep. After about seven days I started to feel some withdrawals,.about 5%. Not sleeping was driving me mad, I was so bored. I was listening to a lot of music, day and night, a lot of Pink Floyd’s “Division Bell.” I was so happy,..I am free,…f*ck I can’t believe it, wow,..I kept thinking this and would cry with joy,..I am free I am free. After about 3 weeks I had approx’ up to 15% withdrawals, however they were different,..not at a soul level,..more physical,..like I was just sick getting better. I stayed at Sara’s for 27 days and in this time took nutrients and Sara cooked yummy food, Mmm Mmmm M. I am now into my fourth month, still feel a little “not right” however getting stronger everyday. My after care consists of no friends around me that are using, drinking herbs and a lot of nutrients, they make the mind stronger. No sugar except for fruit or an occasional short black coffee..smoking pot has helped tremendously. Exercising has helped sleeping. Socialising and laughing my head off is great. I went to a nightclub and laughed so much I got kicked out. Can you believe that. 🙂 I have steam baths at the gym to help sweat out the Methadone. To help with sleep I took Kava Kava, Passion flower and Valerian. Also Metagenics “Fibroplex plus”. I also took vitamin B complex and other nutrients. Good food is huge and a lot of water. I also gave up many many years of smoking tobbaco. I still feel like a ciggarette now and then, however the urge goes within a minute or two. I still find it hard to concentrate and I get impatient. Normally I am a very patient tolerant man. Any questions are welcome on or off list. Oscar Goldman here I come. I am strong. > love, Jasen. > > > > > > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html >[%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Enjoy 25MB of inbox storage and 10MB per file attachment with MSN Premium. Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detoxing from Methadone.
Date: March 24, 2005 at 7:15:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi J
Thanks for sharing.  Awsome story, amazing experience.  When you saw your brother’s head and he said hes living in another dimension waht did you feel>? any thoughts came in to your head>? when he said another dimension did you get a feeling hes there or that hes been born again on this earth or both…….Respect brother

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detoxing from Methadone. Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:58:33 +1000 Hello dear list, I am posting my Iboga’ experience which some of you have already read in bits and pieces. Do whatever you wish with it. I was dosed with the extract of Iboga. For the umpteenth time I was reducing of the Methadone, got down to 25mg then started using( once again). I went up to 60 mg. This was very depressing, wanting to get off the methadone and knowing that I would have to reduce again and go through all that shit all over again. As we know to reduce from 60mg down to 25mg is much easier than from 25mg to 0. If I cannot handle going to 25mg how am I going to go from 25mg to nothing Aaaaaaargh f*ck, I can’t do this anymore, I have been trying for many many years. I was quickly losing interest in living, I just wanted to go home to the other side. Being addicted to opiates for 23 years had become to much to bear. I was at my wits end. I was giving up,..going down fast. One day soon after in utter despair, I had a thought come into my head, “Hang in there, it’s almost over. Being desperate to be pulled out of the ocean of addiction, I held onto the thought. How could this be nearly over, it will take another year at least to reduce of 60mg. The thought kept coming to me over and over again, “hang in there, it’s almost over. I started to get some hope back. I thought the only way this can be over quick is if I find a great rehab” and come straight off. (I believe the voice in my head was my brother who passed on)(He also battled with addiction all his life) I started to search the internet and found this great rehab in the states that uses some of Ron Hubbard’s techniques. Nutrition, Sauna and other things. I had heard of this type of treatment before and was hopeful. I contacted them and spoke to this great guy, I am sorry that I cannot remember his name. This man told me that I need to detox before coming to the rehab’ and advised me of a couple of methods, one of which was the controversial Ibogaine/Iboga. He gave me the “mindvox” Ibogaine site. I logged onto this site and started talking to some of the people and reading as much as I could absorb on Ibogaine. I was fortunate to be able to talk to a few people before treatment during and after, Howard,Randy, Julie, Sean and others. The surge of hope flowing through me again was incredible, I could see a way out. (I am getting goose bumps). I applied for a loan and got it (whew). I spoke to some providers and then rang Sara in Amsterdam. It was booked and organised. I took with me 600mg of physeptone (Methadone in a tablet) and worked out that if I triple dosed for the next 3 days or so I would be finished them as I got to Sara’s, the final stone on opiates before detoxing. I got to Amsterdam airport and was warmly greeted with a hug from Sara. We jumped into the car and drove to her place. I gave Sara what little Physeptone I had left. When I got to Sara’s the fear started to set in, this was it. Shit what am I doing here, I don’t think I can do this. No I can’t do this, I have to go back, for the next few hours I am trying to figure out how I was going back. Sara could see how utterly scared I was and started to calm me. I would have rathered a bear come into the camp to attack as I could have seen what I was facing. I stayed the night and woke in the morning very anxious, f*ck,…no methadone. Mmmm can’t go back and face everyone not having at least tried this. I started to get a little sick in the afternoon and Sara gave me my first dose of 1 gram of Iboga extract. I laid down and after about 1 hour I started to feel relaxed and more at ease with the Iboga, a slight vibrating sensation, knowing this was a very spiritual plant I gave thanks with each dose and asked for guidance.An hour or or two later I was given 1.8 grams. The vibrating became more intense, I felt a low pitch buzzing in my head and a vibrating in my body, very relaxing,..no withdrawals. I was then given 3 grams an hour or two later, the low frequency type of vibrating became more intense, then I found myself in the jungle or somewhere similar. I was on a mat on the ground, there were 7 or 8 tribes people on each side of the mat, they picked me up on the mat and started wobbling it,…wobble wobble wobble,..side to side, I knew they were healing me. I was vibrating,..I saw my cells being vibrated, in my cells were dark blockages, little bits of black in these brilliant white cells, as I was being wobbled side to side I could see my cells vibrating more and more,..ummmmmmmm ummmmmmmmm ummmmmmmmmm, the blackness started to vibrate out of my cells, the dark blockages were being dissipated to the sides of the the cells then disappearing. I was then given 5 grams, after a while there was like an explosion and I found myself on this round medallion type of thing about 8 feet in diameter, like a huge coin. I was spread eagled on this medallion and could not move, arms and legs spread out. One side of this medallion was a brilliant brilliant white and the other side was pitch black. The medallion started to flip whilst going up, whov whov whov whov whov, then it stopped on an angle, facing up at about a 120 degrees. Then it felt like people put there hands inside my body, my bones from my back and then they ripped away with a crack, as this happened the back of the medallion which was pitch black, snapped away and even though I was still spread eagled on the coin, I felt myself falling into this pitch black abyss, feeling of falling falling and at the same time knowing I was also on the medallion feeling safe. The feeling of falling disappeared and I was still on the medallion, the medallion was now only a brilliant white, it started to flip again and go up, whov whov whov whov, making this type of sound as it went up up up. The medallion came to a stop and I was facing this most beautiful light,…love acceptance,..more than light more than love, I do not have the words to explain such a sight,..a vast light,..like a liquid love, so bright so expansive. I was a little concerned and I was told, there is nothing to fear, face the light,..and as I did the light which was everything in that existence, there was nothing else, it started to move towards me and then went through me and ohhhh, what a feeling, I started to get champagne bubbles of light going through me, up from my stomach splitting at the base of my heart and exiting through my shoulders, shring shring shring. It was like I had to be cleansed before going any further,…like trying to mix 14ct gold with 24ct gold,..if you do this you taint the pure gold,..so I was smeltered,..purified so to say. One of my brothers was killed about 2 years ago. As I was in this light I saw his head,..it was moving from side to side with like white flames coming off his head like locks of white liquid light, his mouth did not move but he was speaking to me, there was light coming from his eyes and from his closed mouth, like he was facing a fan and the fan was blowing his hair but it wasn’t hair, he said to me,”You cannot die, you simply leave your body behind and vibrate into another dimension, I am still alive, just in another dimension, if you want to honour my name, live life fully, and I will live through you until you come home.. The love coming from him was incredible, he was incredible,..so beautiful, I still see him clearly. I was shown you are one with everything, I felt it, I was told you can experience anyone that ever was or is, who do you wish to experience? I wanted to feel what it would be like to be Jesus, as I thought this, I was coming into a body from above this being of light that had white light as hair saddling his shoulders, as I entered this body of light I got this tremendous feeling of love coming out of my mouth and outstretched hands, like beacons of light coming from my hands and a tremendous feeling of love and compassion within and being sent out to the world, wow, I fell in love with love. Pure and utter bliss. As I woke up I felt as if my heart was outside of my body, it was turned inside out and twisted a little,..like a gene. I went to get up and as I did it felt like I would leave my heart behind if I moved to fast. Like your stomach would feel as you go down a rollercoaster. For the next 24 hours or so I had to cradle my heart out side of my body, like it was my hearts spirit. I would lay down cradling what looked like an empty space above my chest which I felt was my heart outside my body. It felt red raw, inside out,..twisted and it hurt. After about 24 hours or so my heart felt like it was untwisting and going back inside me.,..then something started to fill my heart with what looked and felt like liquid golden honey, they filled it until my heart overflowed with love I could feel the liquid honey overflowing and trickling down, the feeling was so filling, the love I felt was more than I can describe. For the next 7 days I had no withdrawals. My energy was non existent and I could not sleep. After about seven days I started to feel some withdrawals,.about 5%. Not sleeping was driving me mad, I was so bored. I was listening to a lot of music, day and night, a lot of Pink Floyd’s “Division Bell.” I was so happy,..I am free,…f*ck I can’t believe it, wow,..I kept thinking this and would cry with joy,..I am free I am free. After about 3 weeks I had approx’ up to 15% withdrawals, however they were different,..not at a soul level,..more physical,..like I was just sick getting better. I stayed at Sara’s for 27 days and in this time took nutrients and Sara cooked yummy food, Mmm Mmmm M. I am now into my fourth month, still feel a little “not right” however getting stronger everyday. My after care consists of no friends around me that are using, drinking herbs and a lot of nutrients, they make the mind stronger. No sugar except for fruit or an occasional short black coffee..smoking pot has helped tremendously. Exercising has helped sleeping. Socialising and laughing my head off is great. I went to a nightclub and laughed so much I got kicked out. Can you believe that. 🙂 I have steam baths at the gym to help sweat out the Methadone. To help with sleep I took Kava Kava, Passion flower and Valerian. Also Metagenics “Fibroplex plus”. I also took vitamin B complex and other nutrients. Good food is huge and a lot of water. I also gave up many many years of smoking tobbaco. I still feel like a ciggarette now and then, however the urge goes within a minute or two. I still find it hard to concentrate and I get impatient. Normally I am a very patient tolerant man. Any questions are welcome on or off list. Oscar Goldman here I come. I am strong. > love, Jasen. > > > > > > > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html >[%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > > > /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Enjoy 25MB of inbox storage and 10MB per file attachment with MSN Premium. Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detoxing from Methadone.
Date: March 24, 2005 at 6:58:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello dear list,

I am posting my Iboga’ experience which some of you have already read
in bits and pieces. Do whatever you wish with it.

I was dosed with the extract of Iboga.

For the umpteenth time I was reducing of the Methadone, got down to 25mg
then started using( once again).
I went up to 60 mg. This was very depressing, wanting to get off the
methadone and knowing that I would have
to reduce again and go through all that shit all over again. As we know to
reduce from 60mg down to 25mg is
much easier than from 25mg to 0. If I cannot handle going to 25mg how am I
going to go from 25mg to nothing
Aaaaaaargh  f*ck, I can’t do this anymore, I have been trying for many many
years.

I was quickly losing interest in living, I just wanted to go home to the
other side. Being addicted to opiates for 23
years had become to much to bear. I was at my wits end. I was giving
up,..going down fast.

One day soon after in utter despair, I had a thought come into my head,
“Hang in there, it’s almost over. Being desperate
to be pulled out of the ocean of addiction, I held onto the thought. How
could this be nearly over, it will take another year
at least to reduce of 60mg. The thought kept coming to me over and over
again, “hang in there, it’s almost over. I started
to get some hope back. I thought the only way this can be over quick is if
I find a great rehab” and come straight off.

(I believe the voice in my head was my brother who passed on)(He also
battled with addiction all his life)

I started to search the internet and found this great rehab in the states
that uses some of Ron Hubbard’s techniques. Nutrition,
Sauna and other things. I had heard of this type of treatment before and
was hopeful. I contacted them and spoke to this great
guy, I am sorry that I cannot remember his name.

This man told me that I need to detox before coming to the rehab’ and
advised me of a couple of methods, one of which was
the controversial Ibogaine/Iboga. He gave me the “mindvox” Ibogaine site.

I logged onto this site and started talking to some of the people and
reading as much as I could absorb on Ibogaine. I was fortunate
to be able to talk to a few people before treatment during and after,
Howard,Randy, Julie, Sean and others.

The surge of hope flowing through me again was incredible, I could see a
way out. (I am getting goose bumps).

I applied for a loan and got it (whew). I spoke to some providers and then
rang Sara in Amsterdam. It was booked and organised.

I took with me 600mg of physeptone (Methadone in a tablet) and worked out
that if I triple dosed for the next 3 days or so I would
be finished them as I got to Sara’s, the final stone on opiates before
detoxing.

I got to Amsterdam airport and was warmly greeted with a hug from Sara. We
jumped into the car and drove to her place. I gave
Sara what little Physeptone I had left. When I got to Sara’s the fear
started to set in, this was it. Shit what am I doing here, I don’t
think I can do this. No I can’t do this, I have to go back, for the next
few hours I am trying to figure out how I was going back.
Sara could see how utterly scared I was and started to calm me. I
would have rathered a bear come into the camp to attack
as I could have seen what I was facing.

I stayed the night and woke in the morning very anxious, f*ck,…no
methadone. Mmmm can’t go back and face everyone not having
at least tried this.

I started to get a little sick in the afternoon and Sara gave me my first
dose of 1 gram of Iboga extract. I laid down and after about 1 hour
I started to feel relaxed and more at ease with the Iboga, a slight
vibrating sensation, knowing this was a very spiritual plant I gave thanks
with each dose and asked for guidance.An hour or or two later I was given
1.8 grams. The vibrating became more intense, I felt a low pitch buzzing
in my head and a vibrating in my body, very relaxing,..no withdrawals.

I was then given 3 grams an hour or two later, the low frequency type of
vibrating became more intense, then I found myself in the jungle or
somewhere similar. I was on a mat on the ground, there were 7 or 8 tribes
people on each side of the mat, they picked me up on the mat and started
wobbling it,…wobble wobble wobble,..side to side, I knew they were healing
me. I was vibrating,..I saw my cells being vibrated, in my cells  were dark
blockages, little bits of black in these brilliant white cells, as I was
being wobbled side to side I could see my cells vibrating more and
more,..ummmmmmmm   ummmmmmmmm ummmmmmmmmm, the blackness started to vibrate
out of my cells, the dark blockages
were being dissipated to the sides of the the cells then disappearing.

I was then given 5 grams, after a while there was like an explosion and I
found myself on this round medallion type of thing about 8 feet in
diameter, like a huge coin. I was spread eagled on this medallion and could
not move, arms and legs spread out. One side of this medallion
was a brilliant brilliant white and the other side was pitch black.

The medallion started to flip whilst going up, whov whov whov whov whov,
then it stopped on an angle, facing up at about a 120 degrees.
Then it felt like people put there hands inside my body, my bones from my
back and then they ripped away with a crack, as this happened
the back of the medallion which was pitch black, snapped away and even though
I was still spread eagled on the coin, I felt myself falling into
this pitch black abyss, feeling of falling falling and at the same time
knowing I was also on the medallion feeling safe.

The feeling of falling disappeared and I was still on the medallion, the
medallion was now only a brilliant white, it started to flip again and go
up, whov whov whov whov, making this type of sound as it went up up up. The
medallion came to a stop and I was facing this most beautiful
light,…love  acceptance,..more than light more than love, I do not have
the words to explain such a sight,..a vast light,..like a liquid love, so
bright so expansive. I was a little concerned and I was told, there is
nothing to fear, face the light,..and as I did the light which was
everything
in that existence, there was nothing else, it started to move towards me and
then went through me and ohhhh, what a feeling, I started to get
champagne bubbles of light going through me, up from my stomach splitting at
the base of my heart and exiting through my shoulders, shring
shring shring.

It was like I had to be cleansed before going any further,…like trying to mix
14ct gold with 24ct gold,..if you do this you taint the pure gold,..so I was
smeltered,..purified so to say.

One of my brothers was killed about 2 years ago. As I was in this light I
saw his head,..it was moving from side to side with like white flames
coming off his head like locks of white liquid light, his mouth did not move
but he was speaking to me, there was light coming from his eyes
and from his closed mouth, like he was facing a fan and the fan was blowing
his hair but it wasn’t hair, he said to me,”You cannot die, you simply
leave your body behind and vibrate into another dimension, I am still alive,
just in another dimension, if you want to honour my name, live life fully, and
I will live through you until you come home..

The love coming from him was incredible, he was incredible,..so beautiful, I
still see him clearly.

I was shown you are one with everything, I felt it, I was told you can
experience anyone that ever was or is, who do you wish to experience?
I wanted to feel what it would be like to be Jesus, as I thought this, I was
coming into a body from above this being of light that had white
light as hair saddling his shoulders, as I entered this body of light I got
this tremendous feeling of love coming out of my mouth and outstretched
hands, like beacons of light coming from my hands and a tremendous feeling
of love and compassion within and being sent out to the world, wow, I fell
in love with love.

Pure and utter bliss.

As I woke up I felt as if my heart was outside of my body, it was turned
inside out and twisted a little,..like a gene. I went to get up and as I
did it felt like I would leave my heart behind if I moved to fast. Like your
stomach would feel as you go down a rollercoaster. For the next 24 hours or
so I had to cradle my heart out side of my body, like it was my hearts
spirit. I would lay down cradling what looked like an empty space above my
chest which I felt was my heart outside my body. It felt red raw, inside
out,..twisted and it hurt.

After about 24 hours or so my heart felt like it was untwisting and going
back inside me.,..then something started to fill my heart with what looked
and felt
like liquid golden honey, they filled it until my heart overflowed with
love I could feel the liquid honey overflowing and trickling down, the
feeling was so filling, the love I felt was more than I can describe.

For the next 7 days I had no withdrawals. My energy was non existent and I
could not sleep. After about seven days I started to feel some
withdrawals,.about 5%. Not sleeping was driving me mad, I was so bored.
I was listening to a lot of music, day and night, a lot of Pink Floyd’s
“Division Bell.”   I was so happy,..I am free,…f*ck I can’t believe it,
wow,..I kept thinking this and would cry with joy,..I am free I am free.

After about 3 weeks I had approx’ up to 15% withdrawals, however they were
different,..not at a soul level,..more physical,..like I was just
sick getting better. I stayed at Sara’s for 27 days and in this time took
nutrients and Sara cooked yummy food, Mmm Mmmm M.

I am now into my fourth month, still feel a little “not right” however
getting stronger everyday.

My after care consists of no friends around me that are using, drinking
herbs and a lot of nutrients, they make the mind stronger. No sugar except
for fruit or an occasional short black coffee..smoking pot has helped
tremendously. Exercising has helped sleeping. Socialising and laughing my
head off is great.

I went to a nightclub and laughed so much I got kicked out. Can you believe
that.   🙂

I have steam baths at the gym to help sweat out the Methadone.

To help with sleep I took Kava Kava, Passion flower and Valerian. Also
Metagenics “Fibroplex plus”. I also took vitamin B complex and
other nutrients. Good food is huge and a lot of water.

I also gave up many many years of smoking tobbaco. I still feel like
a ciggarette now and then, however the urge goes within a minute or
two.

I still find it hard to concentrate and I get impatient. Normally I am a
very patient tolerant man.

Any questions are welcome on or off list.

Oscar Goldman here I come. I am strong.

love,
Jasen.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE
Date: March 24, 2005 at 4:50:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
I figured that if i took a gram when i was addicted,  half the dose for no addiction seems reletivly safe.

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:37:51 -0500 Warmly regarded Matt with a heartache… “What do you believe a half dose of ibogaine will do for you?” asked Marc Emery… Yes, can you explain more about your rationale for choosing the size of dose? And the timing of it? I ask, because the desire for “more” and “more NOW” might be coming from a reflex place of former drug habits. Others probably have specific expertise to offer privately on this, but in our case, Jeff G ‘s experience was that micro-doses taken a few weeks after his initial treatment “didn’t make a dent” so to speak. Whatever was going on in his brain chemistry from 32.2 mg/kg of the Ibogaine taken in the initial 113 hours (5 days), seemed to make a follow up booster nine days later (5.8 mg/kg) virtually unnoticeable… he heard a little cricket buzz, prepared himself, and then spent the day saying “I don’t feel anything! I don’t feel anything!” and was eating and walking around and stuff. Pretty similar response with the same amount six days after that. Although that time we cleared his system more thoroughly ahead of the Eat and he was a bit more horizontally inclined (ataxic) I heard later from Martee (hi girl!) that she was told it made sense to put off the follow-through boost(s) as long as possible. And also from a lot of people, everybody really, that the insights are not always immediately perceived on a conscious level. So patience can be a particular virtue. Like what Marcus just said… more will be revealed. wormiest regardenings, and a whole lotta love (sorry – Robert Plant’s in town tonight), rachel /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Share a single photo or an entire slide show right inside your e-mail with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE
Date: March 24, 2005 at 4:37:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Warmly regarded Matt with a heartache…

“What do you believe a half dose of ibogaine will do for you?” asked
Marc Emery…

Yes, can you explain more about your rationale for choosing the size
of dose?  And the timing of it?

I ask, because the desire for “more” and  “more NOW” might be coming
from a reflex place of former drug habits.

Others probably have specific expertise to offer privately on this,
but in our case, Jeff G ‘s experience was that micro-doses taken a few
weeks after  his initial treatment “didn’t make a dent” so to speak.
Whatever was going on in his brain chemistry from 32.2 mg/kg of the
Ibogaine taken in the initial 113 hours (5 days), seemed to make a
follow up booster nine days later (5.8 mg/kg) virtually
unnoticeable… he heard a little cricket buzz, prepared himself, and
then spent the day saying “I don’t feel anything!  I don’t feel
anything!” and was eating and walking around and stuff.   Pretty
similar response with the same amount six days after that.  Although
that time we cleared his system more thoroughly ahead of the Eat and
he was a bit more horizontally inclined (ataxic)

I heard later from Martee (hi girl!) that she was told it made sense
to put off the follow-through boost(s) as long as possible.  And also
from a lot of people, everybody really, that the insights are not
always immediately perceived on a conscious level.  So patience can be
a particular virtue. Like what Marcus just said… more will be
revealed.

wormiest regardenings, and a whole lotta love (sorry – Robert Plant’s
in town tonight), rachel

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Marc Emery <Marc420Emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] About those heart problems
Date: March 24, 2005 at 3:50:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matthew,

Of the 60 patients I was involved in administering ibogaine to, there were no serious anomalies and only one minor situation (older patient, 59, fell unconscious briefly from low blood sugar after eating & drinking little for three days after ibo) and he recovered immediately upon some glucose, so ibogaine is safe in my observations.

Nonetheless, I would seriously wait until you were certain your heart health was very good before administering ibo to yourself. To put that to the test, when you think you are very well, go jogging and run until your heart is beating hard. If it doesn’t hurt and you feel fine and there are no breathing problems and no chest pain, you are probably in healthy shape.

Of course, I presume you have a capable and faithful person beside you the entire time to monitor you & your vital signs when you do take this ibogaine.

Marc Emery
From: matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE
Date: March 24, 2005 at 3:18:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mark
I intend to take it next week or when it arrives.  the main reason im taking it is to find more answeres to lifes never ending questions.  im not really taking it for cravings etc.  the cardiologist said that the infrection goes away on its own.  He said to take an asprin if the pain persists. LOL

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: Marc Emery <Marc420Emery@shaw.ca> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:56:08 -0800 When do you intend to take this dosage of Ibo HCI? You should definitely deal with that infection first. What do you believe a half dose of ibogaine will do for you? Marc Emery << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE
Date: March 24, 2005 at 3:18:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mark
I intend to take it next week or when it arrives.  the main reason im taking it is to find more answeres to lifes never ending questions.  im not really taking it for cravings etc.  the cardiologist said that the infrection goes away on its own.  He said to take an asprin if the pain persists. LOL

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: Marc Emery <Marc420Emery@shaw.ca> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:56:08 -0800 When do you intend to take this dosage of Ibo HCI? You should definitely deal with that infection first. What do you believe a half dose of ibogaine will do for you? Marc Emery << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: marcus israel <vesch69@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 24, 2005 at 2:39:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

And good and proper sense it seems to be,
my personal experience during Ibogaine treatment
was one that had me realizing my inability to control
perceptions that , i feel, were being generously
donated by ? (Bwiti?)..i still do not want to be so
bold as to say I truly know the wherefroms and reasons
for what happened during my sessions, yet can say for
certain that i am not fortunate enough to have
completed, having been overcome by my fear of what was
being revealed..more will be revealed
Marcus I.
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 3/23/05 9:18:45 PM Eastern
Standard Time,
freedomroot@gmail.com writes:
Finally, my anecdotal sense, well on the mystic
range of how people
approach this treatment, is that the Bwiti are “in
charge” of what’s
going down… you aren’t just taking a Pill (or six
or twelve), you
are crossing a psychic threshold where surrender and
spirit are not
abstract but real and powerfully present
Very well said Rach.
Randy

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

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From: Marc Emery <Marc420Emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE
Date: March 24, 2005 at 1:56:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When do you intend to take this dosage of Ibo HCI? You should definitely deal with that infection first.

What do you believe a half dose of ibogaine will do for you?

Marc Emery
From: matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE
Date: March 24, 2005 at 1:37:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
i ahve a question…..lets say a person who took ibo for meth/h/benzo adiction ingested 1gram hcl for about 70kg and about a week later had severe heart problems…extreme palpitations…lips hands going numb….uncotroloble shaking…….had to go to er…..did an ekg had minor complications, had to have holter monitor which showed stage two heart block and went to a cardiologist who explained that the condition happens quite often in people who have severe flu…he explained that the sack that holds the heart got infected……question—would it be safe to do ibo in small dose ie half a gram or less
Warmest Regards

Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ATTN ANY DOCTORS ON THE LST——-HEART PROBLEMS/IBOGAINE
Date: March 24, 2005 at 1:37:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
i ahve a question…..lets say a person who took ibo for meth/h/benzo adiction ingested 1gram hcl for about 70kg and about a week later had severe heart problems…extreme palpitations…lips hands going numb….uncotroloble shaking…….had to go to er…..did an ekg had minor complications, had to have holter monitor which showed stage two heart block and went to a cardiologist who explained that the condition happens quite often in people who have severe flu…he explained that the sack that holds the heart got infected……question—would it be safe to do ibo in small dose ie half a gram or less
Warmest Regards

Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 24, 2005 at 1:30:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/23/05 9:18:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, freedomroot@gmail.com writes:
Finally, my anecdotal sense, well on the mystic range of how people
approach this treatment, is that the Bwiti are “in charge” of what’s
going down… you aren’t just taking a Pill (or six or twelve), you
are crossing a psychic threshold where surrender and spirit are not
abstract but real and powerfully present
Very well said Rach.                            Randy

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NYC ibogaine forum presentations
Date: March 24, 2005 at 10:51:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I am not the producer of the event so it is a question the various producers
would have to ask.  Possibly, it was an issue of money/time, etc.

Howard

In a message dated 3/24/05 5:12:57 AM, morning_wood263@yahoo.com writes:

So I guess nobody recorded mp3’s of COSM or any
other presentation.  Why is that Howard?

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
For those of you who could not attend the NYC
Ibogaine Forum, the Ibogaine
Dossier has now received a number of presentations
that have been placed on the
Dossier.  Additional reports are expected but, here
is what is available now
from the links at
http://www.ibogaine.org/nyc2005.html or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nyc2005.html

Howard

“Ibogaine Forms, Dose and Dose Regimens”

“Music Therapy and Ibogaine Treatment: Harmonic
Symbiosis ”

“New Findings: Dopamine, Craving and Ibogaine
Effects”

“Ibogaine and Gene Expression”

“Survey Methamphetamine Treatments with Ibogaine.”

“Ibogaine: Anti-viral Effects”

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 24, 2005 at 9:40:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jasen, it’s good to see your positive vibe dude. You have a way of putting things in perspective that I relate to. Thanx.                Randy

From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 24, 2005 at 6:02:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I detoxed with Ibo from metha and i used cannabis to
combat the very minor WD I felt, it actually takes
almost all of it away in a high dose…  I have been
clean of methadone and other opiaets for a year and my
tolerance was reset as well…  It isn’t a walk in the
park, but it isn’t difficult if you really wanna be
clean, i tried many ways, this one was by far the
easiest and most healing, the qucikest, but you still
have to be prepared and ready to make the necessary
changes not to relapse…  It gioves you a nice window
of opportunity to change your habits, but the rest is
up to you, it is a tool, but not a cure all…  More
info if you wish…. just ask…
CE

— bb <bbburtnick@webtv.net> wrote:
I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have
signed on in hopes of
discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from
methadone. Then of course is
the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention
proper application. But
first of all is the question of whether there is any
genuine value for
meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake
comparatively, if you
don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust
me). Seems
“rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping, unless
perhaps if the
problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life. So
does ibogaine
differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal
anyway?
Respectfully-bb

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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NYC ibogaine forum presentations
Date: March 24, 2005 at 5:11:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

So I guess nobody recorded mp3’s of COSM or any
other presentation.  Why is that Howard?

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
For those of you who could not attend the NYC
Ibogaine Forum, the Ibogaine
Dossier has now received a number of presentations
that have been placed on the
Dossier.  Additional reports are expected but, here
is what is available now
from the links at
http://www.ibogaine.org/nyc2005.html or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nyc2005.html

Howard

“Ibogaine Forms, Dose and Dose Regimens”

“Music Therapy and Ibogaine Treatment: Harmonic
Symbiosis ”

“New Findings: Dopamine, Craving and Ibogaine
Effects”

“Ibogaine and Gene Expression”

“Survey Methamphetamine Treatments with Ibogaine.”

“Ibogaine: Anti-viral Effects”

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]

\]=———————————————————————=[/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 24, 2005 at 4:11:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mat

I’m glad your thinking is is positive and your taking new steps. I’m not a recovering addict but I’ve used all sorts of substances in the past – I did get a problem with weed in my early 20’s but I’ve been able keep stuff at arms length. I now work in the substance misuse field – I”ve worked in rehab, community outreach and and statutory multi disiplinary teams and mental health. I trained as a Social Worker in 99 and have been in the field ever since. I’m 32 years old and have two kids.

I you want to ask anything else just go for it

I wonder what other measures you are taking to help keep things moving  – what about your mates? are you still hanging with using friends while they use? do you have many non using mates?

Much Love

Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:53:49 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:53:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris
Thanks for ur king words and  the link– ill definetly check it out……Chris i realize that to use something to deal with problems is only more problematic…i totally agree with u….i dont think heroin is the key to solving lifes ridles…never ever and i hope i never will use heroin if i have serious problem…..i know what would happen……..i should have been more clear—-i meant to say that it will be fun to use once in a blue moon but ONLY ONLY IF U KNOW  u can handle it….how can u know? is it posible to know with H……i think it is only posible after u go fhrough a major transformation…right now i dont care about H…..the cravings come and go but ever since i slipped i deal with them much better….i know why i have to stay clean and whats going to happen if i start using…..no ifs or buts…i made my choice…..i chose the life of creativity, imaganition, evolution and most importantly action……..”not the consequences of actions that matter –its whter we act”–Satre—-peace out brother…..btw are u a recovering addict>? pls tell me a bit about ur self
Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:16:16 +0000 Hello Matt Wow thanks for sharing that. Your journey is one of extreme experience and seems to go hand in and with a powerful addiction. It’s interesting that you felt a need to test yourself – I guess its quite common to undergo some boundary pushing. Damn those prescription drugs, they hand them out like sweets laced with razor wire. Interestingly some of the stuff that I’ve read would suggest that benzos are ineffective if prescribed for more than say one month. This is to do with the short half life and resulting fast development of tolerance. This seems to lead to symptoms such as, anxiety and insomnia – the very issues that they were prescribed for, they can create. Check this site out professor Ashton spent 3 years in a benzo reduction clinic and this is based on best practice from hands on experience http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm I’d like to say a massive well done for achieving 10 weeks clean (with a small hick up in between!) Heroin is simply Heroin it’s what WE do with the substances that create the problems. Some of us can take or leave this or that but some of us get stuck with the taking bit. I guess that’s something that you have learned. Its interesting to read that “I might do it here and there to take the pressure off” what are your thoughts about that? Are you saying that the only way to take time out from life’s pressures is to use Heroin?? Can you remember a time when pressure was something that you dealt with in some other way? It’s a funny old game but it seems that when we chose to use a substance to cope with something that can be worked through without drugs we give up some of our own strength to the drug – allowing it to cope in or absence = does that make sense? That seems to be the pivotal point of danger for many folk once you give up your personal power to something else it’s like we dissolve our own fantastic abilities such as resilience. You are an artist of life and BROWN is but one colour you can paint with – get your brush out Mr Mat and lets see some positive pictures! Avoiding a physical habit is easy Mat – just don’t use on consecutive days and try and leave a few days in between using, aim for more junk free days in the week instead of using days. See The Heroin Users Handbook by francis Moraes The trouble is and always will be the mind games folk play or the psychological addiction – it is waiting in the wings to cover you in chocolate covered teeth time. Is it just me, or have you already started tasting the chocolate, instead of avoiding the sharp teeth?? I wish you well for the future Matt – its waiting to be developed by us all Much Love Chris >From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization >Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:16:12 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] It works in more ways than one.
Date: March 23, 2005 at 10:12:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey BB,

How you doing matey. My name is Jasen, I had been (had,…WOW) addicted to Methadone and heroin for 23 years. Since the
age of 15 (first serious habit). I live in Australia. I spoke to many understanding people on the list for a few months before going to
Amsterdam Holland to have the treatment with Sara. I was on 60mg at the time and also double and triple dosed a few days
leading up to getting to Sara’s.

Sara gave me the “extract” Iboga. I was at Sara’s for 27 days. The “Iboga'” helped me in many ways, one of which was to relieve
me of at least 85% of the withdrawals.

The good thing about Iboga’ is that it seems to help with some of the underlying reasons as to the addiction in the first place, it did for
me anyway. It also seems to give you more understanding and it filled me with love,..love in very generous amounts. It really was a
wonderfull medicine for me.

I am now going into my fourth month,…free of all addiction and I am loving it. The residual withdrawals for me stuck with me for
quite a while,….but you know what,..it is not like “hanging out” it is like you know you are a little unwell,..like you have the flu, and
you will get better. It gives you strength.

One very important thing is “aftercare”. Organise yourself in a way where you will not be around your old “using” mates, and your
enviroment is different when you get home. Iboga resets your life and gives you the opportunity to take a different path if you so
choose. It did for me.

If you have any questions, I am here for you, as are many others. Be well BB.

I am strong.

love,
Jasen.

—– Original Message —– From: “bb” <bbburtnick@webtv.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?

I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have signed on in hopes of
discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from methadone. Then of course is
the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention proper application. But
first of all is the question of whether there is any genuine value for
meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake comparatively, if you
don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust me). Seems
“rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping, unless perhaps if the
problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life. So does ibogaine
differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal anyway?
Respectfully-bb

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 23, 2005 at 9:02:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi bb,

I’m Jeff’s wife, rachel, with a few comments to add onto his.

It does feel like its an opportunity to have your life handed back to
you, free of the handcuffs and the disciplines of the clinic.  There’s
a lot about wanting to be free of it too, it seems, because it’s not
just about the week or two of eating the root medicine, but what you
do with yourself, your energies, and your healing choices in the
immediate aftermath of that eating.

We did not do all that was recommended, like get out of town, have a
therapeutic relationship in place, or take up a body practice like
yoga, Qi Gong, etc.  He had some extended PAWS for sure, but
withdrawals were still far (FAR!) milder than what  you’d go through
even on a slow taper.  And he also didn’t follow through on a lot of
the nutritional suggestions, including exercise.  We had limited funds
to do the kind of therapy and bodywork that might really help release
old patterns more effectively.   I think he got one professional
massage, and a few weeks of Chiro, a few meetings with a new
therapist, and then kinda gave up on all that and did his own thing.

So does it work?  Absolutely, but contingently.  From what I heard of
Howard’s talk at the recent forum, and I don’t think this data is
broken down by distinction of methadone, heroin, cocaine, etc., but it
seems like 10% of the folks are totally sprung, freed, cured, (or
whatever language feels discursively correct in your lexicon of the
Drug Wars),  another 10% it doesn’t quite seem to work on and they go
back to using like the next day, and the other 80% get a period of
ADDICTION INTERRUPTION that ranges from a few months to a few years
before cravings return.

Kamlet’s talk suggested / explained why it doesn’t work for that 10%
— their livers can’t process the alkaloids into their
counter-addictive metabolite, Nor-Ibogaine, either because it was busy
using that enzyme on some other medicine or on grapefruit juice or
perhaps because they just don’t have it in their body to begin wtih
There’s some science about whether you are a rapid, moderate, slow, or
non metabolizer based on genetic material, but that test is expensive
and is inconvenient for most patients.

Our Ibo-Angels, and I think this is the state of the art, suggested a
preliminary test dose of the Ibogaine HCL according to his body
weight, watching for allergic reaction, and then how fast it “comes
on” tells providers’ something intuitive about the relationship this
particular person has for the root medicine.  Sara’s process in the
Netherlands, from what I understand, uses also the whole root extract
and if you go there, you have a longer period of time with your
provider which might be good, as it does take longer to detox with
Methadone patients than with heroin.

Finally, my anecdotal sense, well on the mystic range of how people
approach this treatment, is that the Bwiti are “in charge” of what’s
going down… you aren’t just taking a Pill (or six or twelve), you
are crossing a psychic threshold where surrender and spirit are not
abstract but real and powerfully present.  For example, I did not
ingest anything, and felt all sorts of “vibes” over the course of
Jeff’s ad-hoc initiation, including energy in the room where he
dreamed, hallucinogenic visitations in my meditations at the foot of
his bed, and for at least a few months afterwards dreams on some
nights that mirrored his consciousness processes in uncanny themes and
peoplings.  But maybe that’s our relationship and my relationship with
g-d.

At any rate, bottom line, you probably have a 90% chance to gain a
unique window of opportunity to withdraw relatively easily, but your
brain’s ultimate rebirth seems to depend on variables like your
habits, your friends, your situation, what goes down in your
vision-dreams, etc.

with love from qns, and special love to all the Angels out there, rachel

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:53:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris
Thanks for ur king words and  the link– ill definetly check it out……Chris i realize that to use something to deal with problems is only more problematic…i totally agree with u….i dont think heroin is the key to solving lifes ridles…never ever and i hope i never will use heroin if i have serious problem…..i know what would happen……..i should have been more clear—-i meant to say that it will be fun to use once in a blue moon but ONLY ONLY IF U KNOW  u can handle it….how can u know? is it posible to know with H……i think it is only posible after u go fhrough a major transformation…right now i dont care about H…..the cravings come and go but ever since i slipped i deal with them much better….i know why i have to stay clean and whats going to happen if i start using…..no ifs or buts…i made my choice…..i chose the life of creativity, imaganition, evolution and most importantly action……..”not the consequences of actions that matter –its whter we act”–Satre—-peace out brother…..btw are u a recovering addict>? pls tell me a bit about ur self
Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:16:16 +0000 Hello Matt Wow thanks for sharing that. Your journey is one of extreme experience and seems to go hand in and with a powerful addiction. It’s interesting that you felt a need to test yourself – I guess its quite common to undergo some boundary pushing. Damn those prescription drugs, they hand them out like sweets laced with razor wire. Interestingly some of the stuff that I’ve read would suggest that benzos are ineffective if prescribed for more than say one month. This is to do with the short half life and resulting fast development of tolerance. This seems to lead to symptoms such as, anxiety and insomnia – the very issues that they were prescribed for, they can create. Check this site out professor Ashton spent 3 years in a benzo reduction clinic and this is based on best practice from hands on experience http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm I’d like to say a massive well done for achieving 10 weeks clean (with a small hick up in between!) Heroin is simply Heroin it’s what WE do with the substances that create the problems. Some of us can take or leave this or that but some of us get stuck with the taking bit. I guess that’s something that you have learned. Its interesting to read that “I might do it here and there to take the pressure off” what are your thoughts about that? Are you saying that the only way to take time out from life’s pressures is to use Heroin?? Can you remember a time when pressure was something that you dealt with in some other way? It’s a funny old game but it seems that when we chose to use a substance to cope with something that can be worked through without drugs we give up some of our own strength to the drug – allowing it to cope in or absence = does that make sense? That seems to be the pivotal point of danger for many folk once you give up your personal power to something else it’s like we dissolve our own fantastic abilities such as resilience. You are an artist of life and BROWN is but one colour you can paint with – get your brush out Mr Mat and lets see some positive pictures! Avoiding a physical habit is easy Mat – just don’t use on consecutive days and try and leave a few days in between using, aim for more junk free days in the week instead of using days. See The Heroin Users Handbook by francis Moraes The trouble is and always will be the mind games folk play or the psychological addiction – it is waiting in the wings to cover you in chocolate covered teeth time. Is it just me, or have you already started tasting the chocolate, instead of avoiding the sharp teeth?? I wish you well for the future Matt – its waiting to be developed by us all Much Love Chris >From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization >Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:16:12 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] digital photos nyc ibogaine forum
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:39:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard I will get them to you as soon as I figure out how to work the camera.

M.

From: MargoK2004@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:33:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Matt, ibo does not work for benzo’s. If you are taking them it will put you full WD.

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:16:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi bb
i used ibo for 20mg meth H and other opidos/opiates benzos and i was in the most acute wd i was ever in……coming of h before was nothing compared to this…..but from what i read most people have slight wd but there are exceptions and i was one…..

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: jeffgd1@aol.com Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox? Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:39:05 -0500 bb i used ibogaine to stop a 10 year 50mg/day methadone habit a little more than 5 months ago. It works…BUT..it is not the magic pill that in 2-3 days leaves you feeling jut great. It does do away with acute withdrawal symptoms, like magic! I never was more than a touch sick while under going my treatment. But the following weeks were very very hard on me. I was RAW and tho not classically dope sick was weak low low low energy and emotional (good and bad) It is the only way I would have ever been able to be done with the methadone but you need to expect a long period of post acute withdrawal symptoms (PAWS) Read patricks writngs on getting clean .The part about it taking a good 6 months to get your brain firing right again but it does happen and I am very gratefulk to have had the experience. Go for it! Jeff G —–Original Message—– From: bb <bbburtnick@webtv.net> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Sent: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:13:10 -0500 Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth detox? I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have signed on in hopes of discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from methadone. Then of course is the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention proper application. But first of all is the question of whether there is any genuine value for meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake comparatively, if you don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust me). Seems “rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping, unless perhaps if the problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life. So does ibogaine differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal anyway? Respectfully-bb /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 23, 2005 at 5:15:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/23/05 4:17:38 PM, abductmeplease@hotmail.com writes:

Avoiding a physical habit is easy Mat – just don’t use on consecutive days
and try and leave a few days in between using, aim for more junk free days
in the week instead of using days. See The Heroin Users Handbook by francis
Moraes

Always more easily said than done.

Howard
http://www.doraweiner.org
http://www.ibogaine.org

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From: jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 23, 2005 at 4:39:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

bb
i used ibogaine to stop a 10 year 50mg/day methadone habit a little more than 5 months ago. It works…BUT..it is not the magic pill that in 2-3 days leaves you feeling jut great.
It does do away with acute withdrawal symptoms, like magic! I never was more than a touch sick while under going my treatment.
But the following weeks were very very hard on me. I was RAW and tho not classically dope sick was weak low low low energy and emotional (good and bad)
It is the only way I would have ever been able to be done with the methadone but you need to expect a long period of post acute withdrawal symptoms (PAWS)
Read patricks writngs on getting clean .The part about it taking a good 6 months to get your brain firing right again but it does happen and I am very gratefulk to have had the experience.
Go for it!
Jeff G

—–Original Message—–
From: bb <bbburtnick@webtv.net>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:13:10 -0500
Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?

I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have signed on in hopes of
discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from methadone. Then of course is
the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention proper application. But
first of all is the question of whether there is any genuine value for
meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake comparatively, if you
don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust me). Seems
“rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping, unless perhaps if the
problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life. So does ibogaine
differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal anyway?
Respectfully-bb

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Drug took Stevenson face to face with Hyde
Date: March 23, 2005 at 4:34:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Vigilius Haufniensis
To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Cc: Literature@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 6:09 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] Drug took Stevenson face to face with Hyde

“The fact that Stevenson was injected with such a powerful drug just a couple of weeks before the writing of his famous story about personality-altering drugs has to be linked.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-1533605,00.html

Drug took Stevenson face to face with Hyde
Karin Goodwin

THE Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde was written by Robert Louis Stevenson under the influence of a hallucinogenic drug similar to LSD, according to new research.
Doctors believe the Scots author wrote the classic exploration of good and evil while being treated with a derivative of ergot, a potentially deadly hallucinogenic fungus.

The mould, which affects rye and wheat, caused mass poisonings during the Middle Ages. Victims suffered vivid hallucinations and convulsions, which were mistakenly believed to be symptoms of demonic possession. Many witch trials, including those in Salem, Massachusetts, in 1692, are believed to have been triggered by outbreaks of ergotism.
During the Victorian era, ergotine, a derivative of the fungus, was used by doctors to stop bleeding. Stevenson, who suffered from tuberculosis, was given injections of the drug to stop bleeding in his lungs.
Professor Robert Winston, the chair of the House of Lords select committee on science and technology, and Dr George Addis, a former consultant in medicine and therapeutics at Glasgow University, believe that the injections led to side-effects that created a “Mr Hyde-like” transformation in the author. Their findings will be revealed today in a BBC1 documentary.
They believe that they have found evidence in a recently uncovered letter, now held in Yale University’s archive, that shows Stevenson experienced spasms and hallucinations characteristic of an ergotine overdose.
In the letter, dated “end of August, early September 1885”, Stevenson’s wife wrote to William Henley, her husband’s friend and literary agent: “Louis’s mad behaviour . . . I think it must be the ergotine that affects his brain at such time.
“He is quite rational now, I am thankful to say, but he has just giving up insisting that he should be lifted into bed in a kneeling position, his face to the pillow.”
Two weeks later Stevenson began writing his famous work about the duality of human nature. The story recounts the adventures of Dr Jekyll, who takes drugs that separate the good and evil in his psyche. Although the doctor is purified, the evil Mr Hyde is created as a terrible side-effect.
Stevenson always claimed that the plot of Jekyll and Hyde came to him in a fevered dream while he was seriously ill. Yet in August 1885 his bleeding became so severe he was given at least one injection of ergotine, which is referred to in another letter.
In the BBC programme — The Adventures of Robert Louis Stevenson — Winston claims that ergotine was an important influence on Stevenson.
“Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is about drug taking and the power of drugs which overtake his body completely and drive Dr Jekyll in a way that really is completely alien to him,” he says. “Maybe that’s what Stevenson is feeling with the use of the drugs that he’s taking, particularly ergotine. Perhaps he becomes a Mr Hyde himself.”
Andrew Thompson, the documentary’s producer and director, said the doctors’ findings could lead to important insights into Stevenson’s influences.
“The fact that Stevenson was injected with such a powerful drug just a couple of weeks before the writing of his famous story about personality-altering drugs has to be linked.”

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From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 23, 2005 at 4:16:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello Matt

Wow thanks for sharing that. Your journey is one of extreme experience and seems to go hand in and with a powerful addiction. It’s interesting that you felt a need to test yourself – I guess its quite common to undergo some boundary pushing. Damn those prescription drugs, they hand them out like sweets laced with razor wire. Interestingly some of the stuff that I’ve read would suggest that benzos are ineffective if prescribed for more than say one month. This is to do with the short half life and resulting fast development of tolerance. This seems to lead to symptoms such as, anxiety and insomnia – the very issues that they were prescribed for, they can create. Check this site out professor Ashton spent 3 years in a benzo reduction clinic and this is based on best practice from hands on experience http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

I’d like to say a massive well done for achieving 10 weeks clean (with a small hick up in between!) Heroin is simply Heroin it’s what WE do with the substances that create the problems. Some of us can take or leave this or that but some of us get stuck with the taking bit. I guess that’s something that you have learned. Its interesting to read that “I might do it here and there to take the pressure off” what are your thoughts about that? Are you saying that the only way to take time out from life’s pressures is to use Heroin?? Can you remember a time when pressure was something that you dealt with in some other way? It’s a funny old game but it seems that when we chose to use a substance to cope with something that can be worked through without drugs we give up some of our own strength to the drug – allowing it to cope in or absence = does that make sense? That seems to be the pivotal point of danger for many folk once you give up your personal power to something else it’s like we dissolve our own fantastic abilities such as resilience. You are an artist of life and BROWN is but one colour you can paint with – get your brush out Mr Mat and lets see some positive pictures!

Avoiding a physical habit is easy Mat – just don’t use on consecutive days and try and leave a few days in between using, aim for more junk free days in the week instead of using days. See The Heroin Users Handbook by francis Moraes

The trouble is and always will be the mind games folk play or the psychological addiction – it is waiting in the wings to cover you in chocolate covered teeth time. Is it just me, or have you already started tasting the chocolate, instead of avoiding the sharp teeth??

I wish you well for the future Matt – its waiting to be developed by us all
Much Love

Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:16:12 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!  http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 20, 2005 at 5:16:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris
I love sharing my experience with anybody who will listen….i did acid and mushrooms ocasionly when i was 16-19 and had some meanigfull spirtual trips but never anything like this…. i got the insight into why i coldnt stop by a clear voice in my head stating those exact phrases ” u were always looking for reasons to start using instead of loking for reasons to stop…….and even if iu did manage to stop u would start again because u thought smack was devine……” and after that everything clicked …..but i had no imagees or visions of it…..just when the trip ended i anylezed that voice and understood that all my past failures of abstiance were exactly due to those errors….i was supose to do the ekg and blood test but in all honesty i didnt care if ibo killed me or cured me …i knew that people with hep c with liver enzymes above 200% should be excluded…..my liver enzymes were more than 500% above—-if im correct and i think iam—–.i was too far gone back then….i did ibo by my self in my room….i would definetly recomend somebody to watch over the other person ….no ifs or buts…my case of adiction is a bit complicated becasue i was seeing a psychiatrist during the 2 of my 5 years of adcition so i had a huge habit to benzos and a prety big habit to opioids/opiates becasue i was prescribed massive doesses of diazepam/lorazepam/clonazepam.bromazepam then the oxycontin or diluidid or morphine or fentanyl and it was all free –free for about two years with prescriptions coming every week -2 weeks –so u know…..but before ibo i was using half a gram a day of H with binges of oxy/diluaid/fentanyl whenever i had them…. IV…… also i continued with the benzos cause i still suffered from anxiety insomnia even if it was psycosomatic …although the benzos where not in such massive doses….
on tues its going to be exactly 10 weeks when i did ibo…..i used once 2 weeks ago and im REALLY glad i did because i confirmed to my self that junk is exactly that –JUNK…the reason i did use is i wanted to see if all that shit was worth all the fucken hussle…..it sure wasnt and definetly isnt….it feels good and all but its fucken dirty….the whole exp really put me off with the needles and spoons and seeing my junkie friend shaking from excitemtn when he was cookng his hit was fucken disgusting…..i puked my guts out for the rest of the day and i never puked on h before so that put off even more….i gave the rest of the half gram i bought to my junkie friend and got the fuck out of there……i might due it here and there to take the presure off but there is no way i could do it on a daily basis or even a weekend thing….i dont want to say i got it under control because its so fucken powerful but i feel extremly confident about ever getting a physical habit from it again…from that moment my cravings have almost vanished…take care brother


Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:52:24 +0000 Hi Mat Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you indulged in psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for sharing. I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you some insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always looking for reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of this or did the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way I’d love to know what they were. How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the tests done first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should be something from 2 days to a week – Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not? Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? how did you use? IV smoke both etc. Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you tried before?? iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just don’t answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on abductmeplease@hotmail.com Much Love Chris _________________________________________________________________ It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 23, 2005 at 4:12:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow thanks for sharing that. Your journey is one of extreme experience and seems to go hand in and with a powerful addiction. It’s interesting that you felt a need to test yourself – I guess its quite common to undergo some boundary pushing. Damn those prescription drugs, they hand them out like sweets laced with razor wire. Interestingly some of the stuff that I’ve read would suggest that benzos are ineffective if prescribed for more than say one month. This is to do with the short half life and resulting fast development of tolerance. This seems to lead to symptoms such as, anxiety and insomnia – the very issues that they were prescribed for, they can create. Check this site out professor Ashton spent 3 years in a benzo reduction clinic and this is based on best practice from hands on experience http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

I’d like to say a massive well done for achieving 10 weeks clean (with a small hick up in between!) Heroin is simply Heroin it’s what WE do with the substances that create the problems. Some of us can take or leave this or that but some of us get stuck with the taking bit. I guess that’s something that you have learned. Its interesting to read that “I might do it here and there to take the pressure off” what are your thoughts about that? Are you saying that the only way to take time out from life’s pressures is to use Heroin?? Can you remember a time when pressure was something that you dealt with in some other way? It’s a funny old game but it seems that when we chose to use a substance to cope with something that can be worked through without drugs we give up some of our own strength to the drug – allowing it to cope in or absence = does that make sense? That seems to be the pivotal point of danger for many folk once you give up your personal power to something else it’s like we dissolve our own fantastic abilities such as resilience. You are an artist of life and BROWN is but one colour you can paint with – get your brush out Mr Mat and lets see some positive pictures!

Avoiding a physical habit is easy its seems – just don’t use on consecutive days and try and leave a few days in between using, aim for more junk free days in the week instead of using days. See The Heroin Users Handbook by francis Moraes he make it look easy but….

The trouble is and always will be the mind games folk play or the psychological addiction – it is waiting in the wings to cover you in chocolate covered teeth time. Is it just me, or have you already started tasting the chocolate, instead of avoiding the sharp teeth??

I wish you well for the future Matt – its waiting to be developed by us all
Much Love

Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:16:12 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 20, 2005 at 5:16:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris
I love sharing my experience with anybody who will listen….i did acid and mushrooms ocasionly when i was 16-19 and had some meanigfull spirtual trips but never anything like this…. i got the insight into why i coldnt stop by a clear voice in my head stating those exact phrases ” u were always looking for reasons to start using instead of loking for reasons to stop…….and even if iu did manage to stop u would start again because u thought smack was devine……” and after that everything clicked …..but i had no imagees or visions of it…..just when the trip ended i anylezed that voice and understood that all my past failures of abstiance were exactly due to those errors….i was supose to do the ekg and blood test but in all honesty i didnt care if ibo killed me or cured me …i knew that people with hep c with liver enzymes above 200% should be excluded…..my liver enzymes were more than 500% above—-if im correct and i think iam—–.i was too far gone back then….i did ibo by my self in my room….i would definetly recomend somebody to watch over the other person ….no ifs or buts…my case of adiction is a bit complicated becasue i was seeing a psychiatrist during the 2 of my 5 years of adcition so i had a huge habit to benzos and a prety big habit to opioids/opiates becasue i was prescribed massive doesses of diazepam/lorazepam/clonazepam.bromazepam then the oxycontin or diluidid or morphine or fentanyl and it was all free –free for about two years with prescriptions coming every week -2 weeks –so u know…..but before ibo i was using half a gram a day of H with binges of oxy/diluaid/fentanyl whenever i had them…. IV…… also i continued with the benzos cause i still suffered from anxiety insomnia even if it was psycosomatic …although the benzos where not in such massive doses….
on tues its going to be exactly 10 weeks when i did ibo…..i used once 2 weeks ago and im REALLY glad i did because i confirmed to my self that junk is exactly that –JUNK…the reason i did use is i wanted to see if all that shit was worth all the fucken hussle…..it sure wasnt and definetly isnt….it feels good and all but its fucken dirty….the whole exp really put me off with the needles and spoons and seeing my junkie friend shaking from excitemtn when he was cookng his hit was fucken disgusting…..i puked my guts out for the rest of the day and i never puked on h before so that put off even more….i gave the rest of the half gram i bought to my junkie friend and got the fuck out of there……i might due it here and there to take the presure off but there is no way i could do it on a daily basis or even a weekend thing….i dont want to say i got it under control because its so fucken powerful but i feel extremly confident about ever getting a physical habit from it again…from that moment my cravings have almost vanished…take care brother


Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:52:24 +0000 Hi Mat Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you indulged in psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for sharing. I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you some insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always looking for reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of this or did the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way I’d love to know what they were. How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the tests done first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should be something from 2 days to a week – Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not? Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? how did you use? IV smoke both etc. Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you tried before?? iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just don’t answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on abductmeplease@hotmail.com Much Love Chris _________________________________________________________________ It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 23, 2005 at 3:34:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Note that big ;-)) at the end of the snippet Nick- and also note the quote
marks around “not in my club” which while note directly quoting you, it was
pretty blantantly paraphrasing your immediately preceding note saying:<

And come to think of it, (I remember now what I was thinking when I wrote that) why the hell would “my club” automatically in your mind equal “junkie” or “addict” Nick? I wasn’t thinking either term or catagory whatsoever when I wrote that- I meant more that you are so nowhere near my way of thinking and behaving towards other people, as near as I can tell from our numerous exchanges here, that you are “not in my club” at all, so I am tired of debating with you over nothing important whatsoever.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

>You wrote back that you were starting to listen to this but then
realized that I wasn’t a junkie and so couldn’t know where you were at.<

I did?
What I wrote really was:

I almost let you get my goat here Nick, but then realized yet again, you are
so “not in my club” that you aren’t worth my bother any more.
;-))<

Note that big ;-)) at the end of the snippet Nick- and also note the quote marks around “not in my club” which while note directly quoting you, it was pretty blantantly paraphrasing your immediately preceding note saying:

I figure saying this stuff is just a way for Preston and others to keep us out. “You haven’t been a heroin addict so I don’t have to listen to what you have to say.”<

“Kee you out” of where Nick? I’m completely joking when writing “you’re not in my club” because what you’re saying in the above is so patently ridiculous I couldn’t help myself- and felt it better tact to use humor rather than yet more exasperation- because what I was really saying what that I am tired of this endless going around in circles where you basically accuse me of one attitude or another when they haven’t a thing to do with me ever and how I’m tired of taking so much time to respond to such silliness out of you AND YET here I am yet again wasting time (and yes, I’m wasting time here because I have SO MUCH WORK TO DO- but must admit I too enjoy “debating” if that’s what one might call what you and I are doing here, so continue to find myself unable to resist…oh shit, am I addicted to debating with Nick Sandberg? Oh no, that would not be a good thing. What could I take/use/experience/practice to help break me of THAT habit? LOL!)
So Nick, go back to your sentence to start this, and then read my answer-
Nick, it’s not that you haven’t been a junkie that leaves me unwilling to take you very seriously- it’s your insistance on insisting that all opiate users are somehow either damaged or damaging themselves and are not living a “full” life in YOUR estimation. It’s such a haughty attitude that I get myself very irritated by it and find myself writing these long screeds telling you so, which you continue to take as me telling you you aren’t an ex-junkie or current junkie so I’m not listening to you…etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
So I’m ending this here whether I’ve really made my point clear or not- I’m tired of this endless silly “debating” with you when you simply don’t see the world the way I do and insist that the way I look at the world is wrong, over and over and over again. It bores me, and not because you aren’t/haven’t been a junkie (although I will admit to wondering how you yourself feel you know so much about what effects it has on someone’s ability to live a “fullsome” life- other than from you unability to break your brother of his use using ibogaine)- that fact is utterly irrelevent to any other part of our conversation.
Basically, what works for you is great Nick and I am honestly happy you’ve found a way to get through your life in the best way for you, but your continued, endless insisting that what works for you will work best for everyone, and that your views on users of this or that substance I most often find to be utter bullshit (and other may and probably do disagree with me and do agree with you, and that is COOL WITH ME TOO- so long as I’m not told I must bend/conform/change to fit your idea of “right” “best” “better” “only” way to live my life), to be blunt about it, and THAT is why I don’t take you seriously- and don’t want to keep taking up so much of my work time responding to you.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 21 March 2005 06:01
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

HI all,
I have posted this report of my own first ibo voyage here
before, but in
light of some others reposting and simply posting their experiences, I
thought what the heck, perhaps I should do the same, so here’s my
repost of
my report of my initial intiation into the ibo club (one Nick I believe
belongs to too, so in that role I CAN listen to you Nick – and I’m joking
with you Nick. BTW, you’re still misreading and misquoting me at every
opportunity and I’m now at the point where everything you post
with my name
on it get’s immediately deleted. Our blatant dislike for one
another doesn’t
have to keep popping up on the public list for everyone to share
in- I don’t
like the way you insist on pretending I’m unwilling to listen to
you because
you aren’t a junkie or former junkie, and it appears you are
simply going to
insist that has some basis in reality- or at least you have zero
respect for
me and anything I’ve so far written and said as near as I can
tell from each
and every reply you have to anything I write is any indication.
Admit it Nick, I drive you crazy because I use lots of very strong
medically prescribed opiates legally and don’t seem to suffer all the
stereotypical life problems you seem convinced I have to suffer if I want
(and NEED) to use opiates- and it depresses and pisses you off because I
don’t fit into the mold you keep trying to stuff me into.
Anyway, here’s my own report of my own first ibo experience,
for those
who’ve arrive here since last August.

Hi Preston,

You don’t drive me crazy. I don’t feel like massively engaged with you. I
like to debate with you and personally I’d say I like you. For sure we
haven’t met yet, but one day.

I don’t really see how I’m misreading and misquoting you, to be honest. Can
you give me an example? I wrote the other day that I thought you dismissed
arguments presented to you that came from non-addicts, or non former
addicts, on the grounds that we didn’t know anything about drugs or drug
treatment. You wrote back that you were starting to listen to this but then
realized that I wasn’t a junkie and so couldn’t know where you were at.
Well, frankly, I’d say you were reinforcing what I was saying really.

I am happy that your life on drugs is good. I don’t feel depressed by it. If
you want to use drugs, what’s the problem? My position is I like to try and
move people towards not using heroin but it’s a waste of time except with
people who at least partly want to. I mean, we debate away but really,
anyone who didn’t want to listen would just tell me to fuck off. But you
stick with it and write long things justifying how you are, as if you need
to justify how you are, which tells me that somewhere you don’t really buy
your own position. I’m happy you’re like that.

Nick

http://www.drugwar.com/pkickingdrugswithdrugs.shtm

Kicking Drugs with Drugs-
Taking the Left Hand Path
By Preston Peet
For DrugWar.com
Posted August 12, 2004
(image)
Ibogaine
“Watch for communications soon from another friend of ours,” the
Voice said,
almost giggling with glee. “He’s gonna have a number for you to
call, to get
in touch with some folk doing underground, guerilla ibogaine
treatments in
NYC, this coming August.”
Immediately I’m feeling all sorts of conflicting emotions.
Because here it
is, no more talking about wanting to do it, or wondering on this or that
email list what the effects are and if it really, really does work to
interrupt or cure or help people get over a wide variety of
addictions. If
it is here in my own city and I can get it at much cheaper rates
than were I
to fly to some foreign country where it’s either legal or simply not
regulated at all yet, how in the hell am I, a seasoned, proud
proponent of
cognitive liberty and the free taking of powerful mind expanding drugs, a
veritable Drug Expert, Author and psychonaut, going to live it down if I
chicken out and say, “oh, no thank you”?
snip-
Read Complete Article at above URL

There’s also a brief interview with the man responsible for ibogaine
reaching NYC streets via guerilla
treatments just below the “kicking drugs with drugs” piece on the
mainpage
at DrugWar.com.

http://www.drugwar.com/ibonyc.shtm

(NYC’s Guerilla Ibogaine Treatments- a brief discussion
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
posted at DrugWar.com
August 26, 2004
On a gorgeous sunny afternoon in Manhattan’s Lower East Side,
between my own
first and second sessions on ibogaine, an African root that has been
reported useful in the kicking of a variety of substance addictions and
self-abuse patterns in the West by many researchers and private
individuals,
I carried out the following interview. I met in Tompkins Square Park with
FM, who for the month of August was leading a band of guerilla ibogaine
treatment facilitators, treating an assortment of people with
ibogaine for
myriad reasons.
Having been one of the lucky few who made contact with this group and was
initiated and treated with ibogaine HCL, I was interested in hearing more
about the man who made this experience possible for me and many other New
York City addicts.
snip-
Read interview at above URL)

Enjoy all and wish me luck finally traveling tomorrow- Five hours to go
before I get picked up at my door to go to the airport- boy do I have the
butterflies in my guts right now- I gotta smoke some pot or something.
Sorry all, I sometimes I can’t help lashing out with humorous
slurs at
Nick- but it doesn’t have anything to do with ibogaine or anything
constructive at all, so I apologize for allowing myself such
petty pleasures
publicly.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

> Hi Mat
>
> Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you
indulged in
> psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for > sharing.
>
> I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you
> some
> insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always
looking for
> reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of
this or did
> the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way
I’d love to
> know what they were.
>
> How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the
tests done
> first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should > be
> something from 2 days to a week –
>
> Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not?
> Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? > how
> did
> you use? IV smoke both etc.
> Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you
tried before??
> iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just
> don’t
> answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on
> abductmeplease@hotmail.com
>
> Much Love
>
> Chris
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
>

>
>
>
/]=—————————————————————
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> [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> [%]
>
>
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——=[/
>

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\]=—————————————————————
——=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 23, 2005 at 12:34:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You wrote back that you were starting to listen to this but then
realized that I wasn’t a junkie and so couldn’t know where you were at.<

I did?
What I wrote really was:

I almost let you get my goat here Nick, but then realized yet again, you are
so “not in my club” that you aren’t worth my bother any more.
;-))<

Note that big ;-)) at the end of the snippet Nick- and also note the quote marks around “not in my club” which while note directly quoting you, it was pretty blantantly paraphrasing your immediately preceding note saying:

I figure saying this stuff is just a way for Preston and others to keep us out. “You haven’t been a heroin addict so I don’t have to listen to what you have to say.”<

“Kee you out” of where Nick? I’m completely joking when writing “you’re not in my club” because what you’re saying in the above is so patently ridiculous I couldn’t help myself- and felt it better tact to use humor rather than yet more exasperation- because what I was really saying what that I am tired of this endless going around in circles where you basically accuse me of one attitude or another when they haven’t a thing to do with me ever and how I’m tired of taking so much time to respond to such silliness out of you AND YET here I am yet again wasting time (and yes, I’m wasting time here because I have SO MUCH WORK TO DO- but must admit I too enjoy “debating” if that’s what one might call what you and I are doing here, so continue to find myself unable to resist…oh shit, am I addicted to debating with Nick Sandberg? Oh no, that would not be a good thing. What could I take/use/experience/practice to help break me of THAT habit? LOL!)
So Nick, go back to your sentence to start this, and then read my answer-
Nick, it’s not that you haven’t been a junkie that leaves me unwilling to take you very seriously- it’s your insistance on insisting that all opiate users are somehow either damaged or damaging themselves and are not living a “full” life in YOUR estimation. It’s such a haughty attitude that I get myself very irritated by it and find myself writing these long screeds telling you so, which you continue to take as me telling you you aren’t an ex-junkie or current junkie so I’m not listening to you…etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
So I’m ending this here whether I’ve really made my point clear or not- I’m tired of this endless silly “debating” with you when you simply don’t see the world the way I do and insist that the way I look at the world is wrong, over and over and over again. It bores me, and not because you aren’t/haven’t been a junkie (although I will admit to wondering how you yourself feel you know so much about what effects it has on someone’s ability to live a “fullsome” life- other than from you unability to break your brother of his use using ibogaine)- that fact is utterly irrelevent to any other part of our conversation.
Basically, what works for you is great Nick and I am honestly happy you’ve found a way to get through your life in the best way for you, but your continued, endless insisting that what works for you will work best for everyone, and that your views on users of this or that substance I most often find to be utter bullshit (and other may and probably do disagree with me and do agree with you, and that is COOL WITH ME TOO- so long as I’m not told I must bend/conform/change to fit your idea of “right” “best” “better” “only” way to live my life), to be blunt about it, and THAT is why I don’t take you seriously- and don’t want to keep taking up so much of my work time responding to you.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 21 March 2005 06:01
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

HI all,
I have posted this report of my own first ibo voyage here
before, but in
light of some others reposting and simply posting their experiences, I
thought what the heck, perhaps I should do the same, so here’s my
repost of
my report of my initial intiation into the ibo club (one Nick I believe
belongs to too, so in that role I CAN listen to you Nick – and I’m joking
with you Nick. BTW, you’re still misreading and misquoting me at every
opportunity and I’m now at the point where everything you post
with my name
on it get’s immediately deleted. Our blatant dislike for one
another doesn’t
have to keep popping up on the public list for everyone to share
in- I don’t
like the way you insist on pretending I’m unwilling to listen to
you because
you aren’t a junkie or former junkie, and it appears you are
simply going to
insist that has some basis in reality- or at least you have zero
respect for
me and anything I’ve so far written and said as near as I can
tell from each
and every reply you have to anything I write is any indication.
Admit it Nick, I drive you crazy because I use lots of very strong
medically prescribed opiates legally and don’t seem to suffer all the
stereotypical life problems you seem convinced I have to suffer if I want
(and NEED) to use opiates- and it depresses and pisses you off because I
don’t fit into the mold you keep trying to stuff me into.
Anyway, here’s my own report of my own first ibo experience,
for those
who’ve arrive here since last August.

Hi Preston,

You don’t drive me crazy. I don’t feel like massively engaged with you. I
like to debate with you and personally I’d say I like you. For sure we
haven’t met yet, but one day.

I don’t really see how I’m misreading and misquoting you, to be honest. Can
you give me an example? I wrote the other day that I thought you dismissed
arguments presented to you that came from non-addicts, or non former
addicts, on the grounds that we didn’t know anything about drugs or drug
treatment. You wrote back that you were starting to listen to this but then
realized that I wasn’t a junkie and so couldn’t know where you were at.
Well, frankly, I’d say you were reinforcing what I was saying really.

I am happy that your life on drugs is good. I don’t feel depressed by it. If
you want to use drugs, what’s the problem? My position is I like to try and
move people towards not using heroin but it’s a waste of time except with
people who at least partly want to. I mean, we debate away but really,
anyone who didn’t want to listen would just tell me to fuck off. But you
stick with it and write long things justifying how you are, as if you need
to justify how you are, which tells me that somewhere you don’t really buy
your own position. I’m happy you’re like that.

Nick

http://www.drugwar.com/pkickingdrugswithdrugs.shtm

Kicking Drugs with Drugs-
Taking the Left Hand Path
By Preston Peet
For DrugWar.com
Posted August 12, 2004
(image)
Ibogaine
“Watch for communications soon from another friend of ours,” the
Voice said,
almost giggling with glee. “He’s gonna have a number for you to
call, to get
in touch with some folk doing underground, guerilla ibogaine
treatments in
NYC, this coming August.”
Immediately I’m feeling all sorts of conflicting emotions.
Because here it
is, no more talking about wanting to do it, or wondering on this or that
email list what the effects are and if it really, really does work to
interrupt or cure or help people get over a wide variety of
addictions. If
it is here in my own city and I can get it at much cheaper rates
than were I
to fly to some foreign country where it’s either legal or simply not
regulated at all yet, how in the hell am I, a seasoned, proud
proponent of
cognitive liberty and the free taking of powerful mind expanding drugs, a
veritable Drug Expert, Author and psychonaut, going to live it down if I
chicken out and say, “oh, no thank you”?
snip-
Read Complete Article at above URL

There’s also a brief interview with the man responsible for ibogaine
reaching NYC streets via guerilla
treatments just below the “kicking drugs with drugs” piece on the
mainpage
at DrugWar.com.

http://www.drugwar.com/ibonyc.shtm

(NYC’s Guerilla Ibogaine Treatments- a brief discussion
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
posted at DrugWar.com
August 26, 2004
On a gorgeous sunny afternoon in Manhattan’s Lower East Side,
between my own
first and second sessions on ibogaine, an African root that has been
reported useful in the kicking of a variety of substance addictions and
self-abuse patterns in the West by many researchers and private
individuals,
I carried out the following interview. I met in Tompkins Square Park with
FM, who for the month of August was leading a band of guerilla ibogaine
treatment facilitators, treating an assortment of people with
ibogaine for
myriad reasons.
Having been one of the lucky few who made contact with this group and was
initiated and treated with ibogaine HCL, I was interested in hearing more
about the man who made this experience possible for me and many other New
York City addicts.
snip-
Read interview at above URL)

Enjoy all and wish me luck finally traveling tomorrow- Five hours to go
before I get picked up at my door to go to the airport- boy do I have the
butterflies in my guts right now- I gotta smoke some pot or something.
Sorry all, I sometimes I can’t help lashing out with humorous
slurs at
Nick- but it doesn’t have anything to do with ibogaine or anything
constructive at all, so I apologize for allowing myself such
petty pleasures
publicly.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

> Hi Mat
>
> Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you
indulged in
> psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for > sharing.
>
> I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you
> some
> insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always
looking for
> reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of
this or did
> the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way
I’d love to
> know what they were.
>
> How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the
tests done
> first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should > be
> something from 2 days to a week –
>
> Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not?
> Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? how
> did
> you use? IV smoke both etc.
> Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you
tried before??
> iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just
> don’t
> answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on
> abductmeplease@hotmail.com
>
> Much Love
>
> Chris
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
>

>
>
>
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [DrugWar] Fw: Second daily dosing with buprenorphine. Does it ‘work’ for all?
Date: March 23, 2005 at 12:01:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: drugwar@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 5:41 PM
Subject: Second daily dosing with buprenorphine. Does it ‘work’ for all?

Buprenorphine treatment for opioid dependence: the relative efficacy of daily, twice and thrice weekly dosing. Marsch LA, Bickel WK, Badger GJ, Jacobs EA. Drug and Alcohol Dependence (2005) 77;2:195-204

Dear Colleagues,
Contrasting with most clinical experience, veteran researcher Bickel and colleagues report no differences between twice, thrice or seven day attendance for buprenorphine.  Their 24 week randomised trial examines urine toxicology, retention and behavioural/health outcomes, all of which were comparable between the three groups attending for supervised buprenorphine dosing 2, 3 or 7 times per week.  These results do not necessarily mean that the treatments were ‘equally efficacious’.

While these authors looked at outcomes they did not look at patient preferences and reasons for treatment failures (drop-outs).  It is possible that the same numbers dropped out of each group but for different reasons. Longer duration between dosing has advantages and disadvantages from the patients’ point of view so only a ‘blinded’ study design with all patients attending daily for the length of the study (such as that of Perez et al. with its own weaknesses) is able to test this hypothesis scientifically. Marsch’s trial was only double blind for the first fortnight.  It did carefully stratify patients including by distance travelled for dosing (some took over an hour to get to the clinic!).

This trial was performed in Vermont, one of the last US states to adopt methadone treatment for addiction (due in part to the resistance of long serving governor Dr Howard Dean – he wrote to me once of his reasons). Alternative opioid maintenance services were at many hours drive in adjacent states or Canada.  Such a setting could affect outcomes, as well as its ‘generalisability’.  At the end of this trial, all patients were prescribed compulsory reductions of 1mg every four days.  The positive outcomes reported by these authors clearly demonstrate how inappropriate (if inevitable) such ‘disposal’ of voluntary subjects is and may be a source of discomfort for them.

Marsch, Bickel and colleagues used a liquid formulation which apparently has approximately double the bio-availability of the currently marketed sub-lingual tablets.  Unfortunately, this further distances their work from current clinical practice.  Their mean dose was just under 8mg daily equivalent and it is commendable that they titrated doses carefully against patients’ needs rather than using fixed doses as in some other American research.  The authors seem to conclude that daily dosing is not necessary which is at odds with clinical practice.  Their results do not explain how individual cases may have metabolic half lives as short as 9 hours and might even need twice daily doses (McAleer et al.) as preferred by some in clinical practice.  It is possible that ‘streaming’ patients by clinical parameters or even just preference may obtain even better results in some groups.

I interviewed a number of senior Australian and American clinicians to find out their experience in community settings with availability of numerous treatment modalities (albeit with costs, limited access, wait-lists, etc) with daily versus second daily treatment.  In well over 1000 individual treatment experiences these doctors agreed that no more than half of their patients could or would tolerate second daily attendance for buprenorphine. One colleague in New York even reported a significant proportion with a twice-daily preference.  Thus, in view of the obvious practical benefits, second daily dosing should always be a consideration, yet we know that it is not suitable for all patients and especially not for inductions and reduction courses.

comments by Andrew Byrne ..

my thanks to WKB and LAM for some helpful suggestions in an earlier draft of this summary.

Marsch LA, Bickel WK, Badger GJ, Jacobs EA. Buprenorphine treatment for opioid dependence: the relative efficacy of daily, twice and thrice weekly dosing. Drug and Alcohol Dependence (2005) 77;2:195-204

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Author of: “Addict in the Family” http://www.csdp.org/addict/

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 23, 2005 at 11:36:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Lets say that the word addiction didnt exist and people would use heroin  on a daily basis for years on end.  Would that be a learned behaviour comparable to other learned behaviours as for example eating food>?  you can go without food for a few days and u can function ok…u can get up… u can sleep….what about with H….try going without H for a few days …..i think if the word adiction didnt exist and we would never prohibited people from using whatever they wanted society as a whole would still put labels on people who use….i mean if u see someone everyday high on H just noding off and dreaming away what kind of conclusion could u come up with>? it sure is a great feeling and all but can u waste ur life in this vegetative state….u are not really functioning u dont really exist…..if u never tried H and u see someone in an extatic state dreaming away u would definetly want to try yet when u see that person again and he is in wd for whatever reason i bet u would think twice….but if all drugs were free and accesible all the time things would be much diff….

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:16:14 -0000 —–Original Message—– From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 23 March 2005 13:31 To: Ibogaine List Subject: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency Hi Peter, Having had such a strong reaction to your views and not wishing to be a bigot I feel obliged to try and understand your position a little better. I hope you will be good enough to read what I have wrote here as I have given it a little thought. I guess if it were not for the spiritual aspects of the discussion I would not have ever got into this in the first place but here goes. Disease vs Dependency It seems to me that what you are arguing is that the label of addiction as disease as opposed to the label of addiction as dependency, feeds into the “enemy” camps view that drugs should be outlawed as they support a disease and are a disease. By describing drug addiction as a straightforward physical dependence we cease to associate the label of diseased to someone who is drug dependent. (Of course the person who is dependent may have underlying diseases (psycho-spiritual for example) which keeps the dependence in place. You accept that I believe. Of course they theoretically may not.) Hey Lee, Though it’s a bit crazy to start debating over what Peter’s views MIGHT be, I think what he was saying was that the whole concept of addiction or dependency ITSELF is invalid. These are just medical labels, given by bigots, to perfectly healthy individuals merely altering their daily consciousness through use of substances as is their inalienable right as free people. The whole concept of addiction or dependence is thus invalid. What you or I might label “dependency” I think he would consider simply “learned behaviour,” no different from any other learned behaviour, drug-oriented or otherwise. There’s quite a few people out there who believe this. It’s a good way of looking things, I think. If it’s so then you need to rewrite this piece avoiding terms like “dependency.” Could be interesting! (Of course, the above might not be his view.) Where we got to, in debating, was Howard pointing out that the language used by many ibogaine proponents, rooted in the medical phraseology of “addiction” that Peter so resents, arose originally from the action of bringing greater awareness of ibogaine’s dependence-breaking characteristics to the medical community; that you had to use their language to talk to them. At this point Dr Cohen broke off communications, stating to me, seemingly of Howard’s view, that it was the “language of the medical entrepreneur within a deeply and devout prohibitionist system.” Really a shame the debate didn’t continue, as it is interesting. I guess the central questions for me are, “Is it wrong to bring ibogaine to the market to treat a condition the acceptance of the existence of which may exacerbate the condition itself? Which is truly best, to destroy the mindset that labels some people as dependent, or to treat dependence?” Nick Thus in fighting for the right to take drugs we are fighting not to promote a disease but to give people choice when we remove the label of disease. I like that manner of seeing things as it removes a lot of stigma attached to drug taking and allows those who are not suffering from an addiction to not be labeled diseased. Thus it would be important to you that the ibo-camp revise their language of addiction as disease, and instead refer to addiction as dependence, as ibogaine is growing in strength and popularity and therefore a popularised disease model could undermine your arguments for drug liberalisation. Ibogaine as Cure or Ibogaine as Addiction Interruptor Within your view ibogaine can then be considered a tool for addition interruption but the problem comes in for you (as I see it) when ibogaine advocates describe their work as a cure for addiction. To remain within your viewpoint they should describe it as addiction interruption. Ibogaine as Addiction Interruption If we use this description of ibogaine then the question of its spirituality becomes an awkward issue. What point does it serve? If it is curing something other than addiction as dependency then that suggests a disease. What is the disease? If its not the dependency then what is it? Ok, I agree it is not the dependency. I have many times stated that healing can involve a relapse into dependence but that that should not be seen as a failure to heal but simply a step along the way – if your aim is to heal the underlying issues supporting the dependence which will emerge with verocity from time to time. (Some argue that it can be purely genetic.) Conclusion We seem to both agree that the problem is not the addiction as such but what lies behind or supports it, i.e. addiction is not the disease. In that case I would say we could label ibogaine as an addiction interruptor which also opens the door to a psycho-spiritual realm which allows the taker to examine & heal with the right intention the underlying reasons why they are unable to simply taper off their dependence as you suggest and become drug free if that is what they wish. Saying that as things stand the current language of the ibo-camp appears to be the elimination of drugs as opposed to the liberalisation of drug policies which you advocate. Question: Why is this aspect of treating the underlying disease (if one exists) via eboga spirituality something to be undermined or played down? Are you willing to meet halfway and agree that ibogaine has perhaps revolutionary properties to deal with underlying disease, if on the other hand the ibo camp can change its language to describe ibogaine as an addiction interruptor and not a cure for addiction? With love, Lee PS I sent this email to Peter seperately. Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc: www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html

Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hi Randy!!!!
Date: March 23, 2005 at 11:10:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/20/05 4:44:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, fakeplacebo@hotmail.com writes:
What about you? To stay clean and to be an adult one is still hard for you
too? But I suppose you are in the ‘normal life’ already. But I think there
is so many dificulties in our ‘ clean’ lifes…

Please write me. Your valuable comments are very improtand for me.

Wormest Regards
M
M, it’s so good to hear you are getting married. I’ve been gone for a while on my quest, and was watching the list but not saying anything. I saw your note, and am getting back with you now. I don’t know how much of a normal life I will ever lead, but I’m still clean and trying to at least appear normal. (LOL) I’m working on educating people in KY about Ibogaine and it’s coming around. It looks like to me that there are a lot of people on Methadone down there who are tired of doing what they are doing. Good people who work hard, and feed their families. I also found out something pretty disturbing to me. Women are getting pregnant just to get on Methadone. My friend is running a program that is accepting almost 80 per cent women who are pregnant. He set it up so that they can go to a separate “house” for women for the first month to get stable on Methadone and then into a program to get them support during the pregnancy with all kinds of outside help with issues that come up for her and her child. What is disturbing to me is the need for these women to get pregnant to get the help. The government has made it such a problem for people to get the help that they need that it has come to this. Thank God for Jim Baum in Kentucky for putting the foresight into this, and helping them. This guy deserves another award for this. Think maybe Ibogaine could help these people?            Randy

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 23, 2005 at 10:16:14 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 23 March 2005 13:31
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency

Hi Peter,

Having had such a strong reaction to your views and not wishing to be a bigot I feel obliged to try and understand your position a little better. I hope you will be good enough to read what I have wrote here as I have given it a little thought. I guess if it were not for the spiritual aspects of the discussion I would not have ever got into this in the first place but here goes.

Disease vs Dependency

It seems to me that what you are arguing is that the label of addiction as disease as opposed to the label of addiction as dependency, feeds into the “enemy” camps view that drugs should be outlawed as they support a disease and are a disease.

By describing drug addiction as a straightforward physical dependence we cease to associate the label of diseased to someone who is drug dependent. (Of course the person who is dependent may have underlying diseases (psycho-spiritual for example) which keeps the dependence in place. You accept that I believe. Of course they theoretically may not.)

Hey Lee,

Though it’s a bit crazy to start debating over what Peter’s views MIGHT be, I think what he was saying was that the whole concept of addiction or dependency ITSELF is invalid. These are just medical labels, given by bigots, to perfectly healthy individuals merely altering their daily consciousness through use of substances as is their inalienable right as free people. The whole concept of addiction or dependence is thus invalid.

What you or I might label “dependency” I think he would consider simply “learned behaviour,” no different from any other learned behaviour, drug-oriented or otherwise. There’s quite a few people out there who believe this. It’s a good way of looking things, I think.

If it’s so then you need to rewrite this piece avoiding terms like “dependency.” Could be interesting! (Of course, the above might not be his view.)

Where we got to, in debating, was Howard pointing out that the language used by many ibogaine proponents, rooted in the medical phraseology of “addiction” that Peter so resents, arose originally from the action of bringing greater awareness of ibogaine’s dependence-breaking characteristics to the medical community; that you had to use their language to talk to them. At this point Dr Cohen broke off communications, stating to me, seemingly of Howard’s view, that it was the “language of the medical entrepreneur within a deeply and devout prohibitionist system.” Really a shame the debate didn’t continue, as it is interesting.

I guess the central questions for me are, “Is it wrong to bring ibogaine to the market to treat a condition the acceptance of the existence of which may exacerbate the condition itself? Which is truly best, to destroy the mindset that labels some people as dependent, or to treat dependence?”

Nick

Thus in fighting for the right to take drugs we are fighting not to promote a disease but to give people choice when we remove the label of disease.

I like that manner of seeing things as it removes a lot of stigma attached to drug taking and allows those who are not suffering from an addiction to not be labeled diseased.

Thus it would be important to you that the ibo-camp revise their language of addiction as disease, and instead refer to addiction as dependence, as ibogaine is growing in strength and popularity and therefore a popularised disease model could undermine your arguments for drug liberalisation.

Ibogaine as Cure or Ibogaine as Addiction Interruptor

Within your view ibogaine can then be considered a tool for addition interruption but the problem comes in for you (as I see it) when ibogaine advocates describe their work as a cure for addiction. To remain within your viewpoint they should describe it as addiction interruption.

Ibogaine as Addiction Interruption

If we use this description of ibogaine then the question of its spirituality becomes an awkward issue. What point does it serve? If it is curing something other than addiction as dependency then that suggests a disease. What is the disease? If its not the dependency then what is it?

Ok, I agree it is not the dependency. I have many times stated that healing can involve a relapse into dependence but that that should not be seen as a failure to heal but simply a step along the way – if your aim is to heal the underlying issues supporting the dependence which will emerge with verocity from time to time. (Some argue that it can be purely genetic.)

Conclusion

We seem to both agree that the problem is not the addiction as such but what lies behind or supports it, i.e. addiction is not the disease.

In that case I would say we could label ibogaine as an addiction interruptor which also opens the door to a psycho-spiritual realm which allows the taker to examine & heal with the right intention the underlying reasons why they are unable to simply taper off their dependence as you suggest and become drug free if that is what they wish.

Saying that as things stand the current language of the ibo-camp appears to be the elimination of drugs as opposed to the liberalisation of drug policies which you advocate.

Question:

Why is this aspect of treating the underlying disease (if one exists) via eboga spirituality something to be undermined or played down? Are you willing to meet halfway and agree that ibogaine has perhaps revolutionary properties to deal with underlying disease, if on the other hand the ibo camp can change its language to describe ibogaine as an addiction interruptor and not a cure for addiction?

With love,

Lee

PS I sent this email to Peter seperately.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 23, 2005 at 9:23:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/22/05 1:20:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dana wrote this I think
its apparently not self-evident from their point of view: if you
support self-determination about what one chooses to do with one´s body
than you have to support legalization of ibogaine, too. if one of
peters friends is treated at sara´s, than the cohen-camp cannot be
radically anti-ibo
I think Peter should go see Sara. I wish I could go with him.     Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 23, 2005 at 9:09:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/22/05 3:18:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:
yo! acceptance and love! even to blasphemous Peter Cohen 😉
acceptance and love is the best advertisment for ibogaine! and for
spirituality, too.
much better than insults.

cheers ekki
Amen brother. Couldn’t say it better.     Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:57:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marcus, I think you are correct sir. I read that here a while back and it is Burrow’s. If it’s not it’s someone who has read a lot of Burrow’s.            Randy

From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:52:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/22/05 3:53:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ajtcservice@aol.com writes:
I have learned a lot the past two weeks while reading all the e-mails.  I just want to say thanks to all for the good, useful information and to some for the entertaining debates.  I hope not to offend anyone with that statement, because I too will be drawn into one of those debates, I’m sure.

Annie
Annie, good to see you here. Jump right in on the debates, it’s what keeps us here. Mindvox has been a God send to me. It is also a source of great entertainment when feeling wacked out by life. Keep your head up and don’t give up. It’ll happen.              Randy

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:30:49 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Peter,

Having had such a strong reaction to your views and not wishing to be a bigot I feel obliged to try and understand your position a little better. I hope you will be good enough to read what I have wrote here as I have given it a little thought. I guess if it were not for the spiritual aspects of the discussion I would not have ever got into this in the first place but here goes.

Disease vs Dependency

It seems to me that what you are arguing is that the label of addiction as disease as opposed to the label of addiction as dependency, feeds into the “enemy” camps view that drugs should be outlawed as they support a disease and are a disease.

By describing drug addiction as a straightforward physical dependence we cease to associate the label of diseased to someone who is drug dependent. (Of course the person who is dependent may have underlying diseases (psycho-spiritual for example) which keeps the dependence in place. You accept that I believe. Of course they theoretically may not.)

Thus in fighting for the right to take drugs we are fighting not to promote a disease but to give people choice when we remove the label of disease.

I like that manner of seeing things as it removes a lot of stigma attached to drug taking and allows those who are not suffering from an addiction to not be labeled diseased.

Thus it would be important to you that the ibo-camp revise their language of addiction as disease, and instead refer to addiction as dependence, as ibogaine is growing in strength and popularity and therefore a popularised disease model could undermine your arguments for drug liberalisation.

Ibogaine as Cure or Ibogaine as Addiction Interruptor

Within your view ibogaine can then be considered a tool for addition interruption but the problem comes in for you (as I see it) when ibogaine advocates describe their work as a cure for addiction. To remain within your viewpoint they should describe it as addiction interruption.

Ibogaine as Addiction Interruption

If we use this description of ibogaine then the question of its spirituality becomes an awkward issue. What point does it serve? If it is curing something other than addiction as dependency then that suggests a disease. What is the disease? If its not the dependency then what is it?

Ok, I agree it is not the dependency. I have many times stated that healing can involve a relapse into dependence but that that should not be seen as a failure to heal but simply a step along the way – if your aim is to heal the underlying issues supporting the dependence which will emerge with verocity from time to time. (Some argue that it can be purely genetic.)

Conclusion

We seem to both agree that the problem is not the addiction as such but what lies behind or supports it, i.e. addiction is not the disease.

In that case I would say we could label ibogaine as an addiction interruptor which also opens the door to a psycho-spiritual realm which allows the taker to examine & heal with the right intention the underlying reasons why they are unable to simply taper off their dependence as you suggest and become drug free if that is what they wish.

Saying that as things stand the current language of the ibo-camp appears to be the elimination of drugs as opposed to the liberalisation of drug policies which you advocate.

Question:

Why is this aspect of treating the underlying disease (if one exists) via eboga spirituality something to be undermined or played down? Are you willing to meet halfway and agree that ibogaine has perhaps revolutionary properties to deal with underlying disease, if on the other hand the ibo camp can change its language to describe ibogaine as an addiction interruptor and not a cure for addiction?

With love,

Lee

PS I sent this email to Peter seperately.

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: The Shadow – Annie
Date: March 23, 2005 at 8:22:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Annie,

I think the acceptance and integration of the Shadow is part of the final step in healing. It is held in place by all kind of ego constraints such as guilt, fear of hurting someone and so on. It takes a long time to begin to stop projecting ones childhood relationships onto ones present day to day relationships and thus undermining your true self.

My own experience of the Shadow is this: the Shadow is me but I put a psychological barrier between the part of my consciousness that i find acceptable and the part which I dont, i.e., the Shadow. Via eboga (ibogaine) I have had the distinct sense that I am looking at myself when I have encountered my Shadow. That was a revelation and indication that the barrier between myself (+) and myself(-) is breaking down to lead to myself(o) where + and – equal o :-).

Part of that process is about beginning to trust yourself and what you feel expresses the true you. As healing progresses and you look deeper at what is repressed such as hidden recollections of childhood depression, rejection and unmet need, the causes for feeling guilty about your present justified actions which express your true feelings are slowly lifted. This is a direct result of befriending the Shadow and releasing it.

(The Shadow rebels and screws with your present day life because it is imprisoned by the ego constraints put in place by an unwillingness to examined the past fueled in part by misplaced guilt, fear of shame of oneself, fear of destruction, wanting to believe in a lie as to who you are,  …… The Shadow is a part of you you ignore and is daily suffering.)

In your aware half (so to speak) you can be full of love and beauty but feel very constrained (depressed) as you describe. Unfortunately, the Shadow cannot be ignored and those who do risk committing acts of uncontroled anger in the future – sorry if that sounds scary. The Shadow will continue to push down on your life energy to be noticed because it is in fact you!
Each person is different and one cannot say how much work it will take for one person as opposed to another. However with the right intention and an involvement in eboga spirituality it is possible to slowly unravel the junk which seperates you from the Shadow and in time to face the Shadow and release your true self, ie, express your true self and not keep adding to the pressure on the Shadow leading to a massive blowout one day.

That said, the expression of ones true self that comes from befriending the Shadow requires taking risks. These risks however are supported by intuition and a deep sense that one is acting in a natural and healthy way. Of course one can make mistakes but the path to healing is about taking chances.

Please feel free to question further.

with Love,

Lee

P.S. My own personal work is laced with the Shadow at this present time.
Ajtcservice@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 3/22/2005 2:50:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
This email or any other email on the subject won’t make a dam bit of difference to the process of getting from ones present state to a better state unless of course it is part of a process of releasing the shadow within oneself that has been suppressed.

And, for me, getting to a state of acceptance and love is the name of the game.
Hi, My name is Annie and I’m fairly new here!  Doing a lot of observing, but I need to ask Lee, Ekki, or anyone about the highlighted text above.  HOW DOES ONE GET TO THE PROCESS OF RELEASING THE SHADOW WITHIN ONESELF THAT HAS BEEN SUPPRESSED?  I truly feel like 3 years ago, I had gotten to a state of acceptance and love.  But, I remain in a frozen state, like I cant move on.  This amazes me that so much incredible information came to me and I cant apply it to me or my behavior!

I met a wonderful person here last week, who gave me some hope when I was feeling really discouraged.  He said that Ibogaine was the missing link in releasing the “shadow”.  I hope to be receiving treatment soon and of course I needed it yesterday.  I’ve done a fair amount of drugs in my life, but was always to scared to try hallucinogenic.  (Fear of mentally loosing my mind)  Funny thing is that I have lost my mind over the years and now, I have never felt more excited and certain that this is what I need.

Does LSD or Mushrooms have similar or the same healing benefits as Ibogaine?  I have spent a lot of time researching Ibogaine treatment centers, similar drugs to Ibogaine, and of course places to purchase Ibogaine (Ha Ha – Can’t blame anyone for not being willing to ship to the US though).  Finances are the only thing standing in my way, or I would have already boarded the boat and sailed out to sea!  Eric T. came highly recommended to me from many subscribers and thank you, he’s been very helpful and very accommodating.  Things are looking up!

I have learned a lot the past two weeks while reading all the e-mails.  I just want to say thanks to all for the good, useful information and to some for the entertaining debates.  I hope not to offend anyone with that statement, because I too will be drawn into one of those debates, I’m sure.

Annie

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: bbburtnick@webtv.net (bb)
Subject: [Ibogaine] Meth detox?
Date: March 23, 2005 at 7:13:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m new to receiving ibogaine list mail and have signed on in hopes of
discovering it’s efficacy in detoxing from methadone. Then of course is
the matter of GETTING the stuff, not to mention proper application. But
first of all is the question of whether there is any genuine value for
meth users. Heroin looks like a picnic to shake comparatively, if you
don’t mind me saying so. (I’ve been there- trust me). Seems
“rapid-detox” offers little hope of helping, unless perhaps if the
problem is too much cash cluttering up ones life. So does ibogaine
differ? Or does one end up in lengthy withdrawal anyway?
Respectfully-bb

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 23, 2005 at 6:46:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Peter Cohen <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ekki,

I agree with you and acknowledge there was a certain amount of insult to my argument. If it was out of measure to the argument I was responding too I apologise. I am not by nature an ignorant man.

Yet, I have to say that if someone seeks to use denigrating language to support their argument, especially when it cuts into other peoples spirituality time and time again, I think a certain amount of sharp response is in order – between friends. I don’t think PC is unable to take that. (He can defend this himself if he wishes.) It might make him reconsider the manner in which he constructs his arguments and if he is atheist in his views he might realise better than to use condescending language to win his point towards those who are not and rather create a broad church of support.

The question to me is what is the threat to Peter that this spirituality seems to pose which causes him to denigrate it?

With abundant love to you and to Peter!

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 22.03.2005 um 20:22 schrieb Lee Albert:

>
> And, for me, getting to a state of acceptance and love is the name of
> the game.
>

yo! acceptance and love! even to blasphemous Peter Cohen 😉
acceptance and love is the best advertisment for ibogaine! and for
spirituality, too.
much better than insults.

cheers ekki

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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Mike Macfarlane <bigmountainoutfitting@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] articles in Herointimes
Date: March 23, 2005 at 1:03:02 AM EST
To: digital@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick,
I enjoyed your articles in June ’03 and Dec ’04 Heroin
Times. I have 3 yrs clean & love the freedom from the
physical habit… still have some of the underlying
“causes & conditions”but won’t  trade em for the hell
of a needle , i have a good life now. Never heard of
Iboigaine….  whatever works.  Awesome reading, it
inspired me and made me glad to be clean, alive, and
respectful of the different ways to detox.During a ten
year habit i detoxed many different ways, the last was
a simple raiding of the best of mother in laws
prescription drugs.. not much good but better than
cold turkey…. the hard part was the next six
months… i used  12 step groups, …., i have
experienced good friendship and sponsorship in 12 step
and feel lucky and that is a bonus…… this is a lot
more than i wanted to write.. your articles stirred
something in me that i cannot quite seem to express
tonight, somehow they brought me back to that time
when i was without hope and strung out and walked me
though the detox into early recovery so well that i
relived it all over… I feel you, i really like your
style.. you have reminded me how grateful I am to be
clean today. thank you
Mike

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

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From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 8:34:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana wrote:

I can only speak from my experience. Broadly, virtually all of the
people in Cohen’s camp are drug REFORMERS.  Ibogaine is revolutionary.

I would think the council table is large enough, or we could add in
those expanders, for both reformers and revolutionaries.  Doesn’t it
takes two wings for a bird to fly?

Perhaps though we are riding a dragonfly that has four… love, rachel

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 5:32:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Krista Vaughan [mailto:krista.vaughan@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 March 2005 21:37
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.

To add my 2 cents to this argument I’m finding my own opinions
somewhere between Lee’s overt spirituality and ekki’s science and
reason. I don’t know if I agree that ibogaine is without equal or par
to any other psychedelic, but my own opinion with regards to all of
what Peter Cohen has written is appreciating his point of view. He
does simplify rather then obscure as ekki said, if you compare what he
writes to social theorists, it is nowhere near the level of being way
over anyone’s head, if you take the time to read his words instead of
having a strong emotional reaction to them. What I’ve come away with
is great respect for Peter Cohen who is taking so much of his time to
reply and talk with the “ibo-clan” as he calls it.

In a way it is a mirror of the never ending Nick Sandberg and Preston
Peet debate, where both of them continue communicating at length and
claim to not care and already have made their minds up. If this were
the case I don’t think either one would spend so much of their time
corresponding with the other. By the same token if Dr. Cohen was
somewhere in his ivory tower setting down mandates from above, I find
it unlikely he would spend so much of his time reading and writing
replies to this list and people off it. It has to have taken him many
hours of time and thought to read and respond, which are not the
actions of a person who doesn’t care.

I think everything I’ve said could be resaid as thanks for sharing
your thoughts, to all those who contribute here, I enjoy reading them
and thinking about things. Thanks for the Burroughs Dana, always a
good reminder.

KV

Personally, I figure that this concept of “caring” clouds the issues a bit.
It’s a bit of a veil. There is an attraction to the debate, something draws
the attention. You can call it “caring,” I have done in the past, but
underneath this there’s usually something else going on. When people talk
about wanting to face or encounter their shadow side, they can start with
what they consider they “care” about. Check out where the pay-off is, check
out the feelings suppressed by the outward visage of caring, check out the
social acceptance seemingly gained – at the likely expense of knowing who
they really are. I find it a tough business to look at this, not for the
faint-hearted.

For Dr Cohen there are plenty of pay-offs beneath the humanistic facade, it
seems. Elsewise, why does he pull out of a debate when the arguments against
his perspective start to accumulate? Are the cracks in the idealistic facade
becoming too evident, and the feelings held back starting to break through?
A shame to think this is so, that all this idealism is simply arising
through fear. Maybe I get to find out one day.

Nick

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From: Marcus <aktionman@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 4:57:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

doesn’t this sound like a burrouhgs rant?
i think it was called “the algebra of need”.
marcus

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:00:09 -0500, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

Junk is the mold of monopoly and possession. The addict stands by
while his junk legs carry him straight in on the junk beam to relapse.

Junk is quantitative and accurately measurable. The more junk you use
the less you have and more you have the more you use. All the
hallucingen drugs are considered sacred by those who use them–there
are Peyote Cults and Bannisteria Cults, Hashish Cults and Mushroom
Cults–“the Sacred Mushrooms of Mexico enable a man to see God”–but no

one ever suggested that junk is sacred. There are no opium cults. Opium

is profane and quantitative like money. I have heard that there was
once a beneficent non-habit-forming junk in India. It was called soma
and is pictured as a beautiful blue tide. If soma ever existed the
Pusher was there to bottle it and monopolize it and sell it and it
turned into plain old time JUNK.

Junk is the ideal product…the ultimate merchandize. No sales talk
necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy… The

junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the
consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his
merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client. He pays his staff
in junk.

Junk yields a basic formula of “evil” virus: The Algebra of Need. The

face of “evil” is always the face of total need. A dope fiend is a man

in total need of dope. Beyond a certain frequency need knows absolutely

no limit or control. In the words of total need: “Wouldn’t you?” Yes
you would. You would lie, cheat, inform on your friends, steal, do
anything to satisfy total need. Because you would be in a state of
total sickness, total possession, and not in a position to act in any
other way. Dope fiends are sick people who cannot act other than they
do. A rabid dog cannot choose but bite. Assuming a self-righteous
position is nothing to the the purpose unless your purpose be to keep
the junk virus in operation. And junk is a big industry. I recall
talking to an American who worked for the Aftosa Commission in Mexico.

Six hundred a month plus expense account:

“How long will the epidemic last?” I enquired.

“As long as we can keep it going… And yes…maybe the aftosa will
break out in South America,” he said dreamily.

If you wish to alter or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial
relation, you alter or remove the bottom number. If we wish to
annihilate the junk pyramid, we must start with the bottom of the
pyramid: the Addict in the Street. And stop tilting quixotically for
the “higher ups,” so called, all of whom are immediately replaceable.
The addict in the street who must have junk to live is the one
irreplaceable factor in the junk equation. When there are no more
addicts to buy junk there will be no more junk traffic. As long as junk

need exists, someone will service it.

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From: Krista Vaughan <krista.vaughan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 4:36:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To add my 2 cents to this argument I’m finding my own opinions
somewhere between Lee’s overt spirituality and ekki’s science and
reason. I don’t know if I agree that ibogaine is without equal or par
to any other psychedelic, but my own opinion with regards to all of
what Peter Cohen has written is appreciating his point of view. He
does simplify rather then obscure as ekki said, if you compare what he
writes to social theorists, it is nowhere near the level of being way
over anyone’s head, if you take the time to read his words instead of
having a strong emotional reaction to them. What I’ve come away with
is great respect for Peter Cohen who is taking so much of his time to
reply and talk with the “ibo-clan” as he calls it.

In a way it is a mirror of the never ending Nick Sandberg and Preston
Peet debate, where both of them continue communicating at length and
claim to not care and already have made their minds up. If this were
the case I don’t think either one would spend so much of their time
corresponding with the other. By the same token if Dr. Cohen was
somewhere in his ivory tower setting down mandates from above, I find
it unlikely he would spend so much of his time reading and writing
replies to this list and people off it. It has to have taken him many
hours of time and thought to read and respond, which are not the
actions of a person who doesn’t care.

I think everything I’ve said could be resaid as thanks for sharing
your thoughts, to all those who contribute here, I enjoy reading them
and thinking about things. Thanks for the Burroughs Dana, always a
good reminder.

KV

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From: Ajtcservice@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 22, 2005 at 3:52:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/22/2005 2:50:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
This email or any other email on the subject won’t make a dam bit of difference to the process of getting from ones present state to a better state unless of course it is part of a process of releasing the shadow within oneself that has been suppressed.

And, for me, getting to a state of acceptance and love is the name of the game.
Hi, My name is Annie and I’m fairly new here!  Doing a lot of observing, but I need to ask Lee, Ekki, or anyone about the highlighted text above.  HOW DOES ONE GET TO THE PROCESS OF RELEASING THE SHADOW WITHIN ONESELF THAT HAS BEEN SUPPRESSED?  I truly feel like 3 years ago, I had gotten to a state of acceptance and love.  But, I remain in a frozen state, like I cant move on.  This amazes me that so much incredible information came to me and I cant apply it to me or my behavior!

I met a wonderful person here last week, who gave me some hope when I was feeling really discouraged.  He said that Ibogaine was the missing link in releasing the “shadow”.  I hope to be receiving treatment soon and of course I needed it yesterday.  I’ve done a fair amount of drugs in my life, but was always to scared to try hallucinogenic.  (Fear of mentally loosing my mind)  Funny thing is that I have lost my mind over the years and now, I have never felt more excited and certain that this is what I need.

Does LSD or Mushrooms have similar or the same healing benefits as Ibogaine?  I have spent a lot of time researching Ibogaine treatment centers, similar drugs to Ibogaine, and of course places to purchase Ibogaine (Ha Ha – Can’t blame anyone for not being willing to ship to the US though).  Finances are the only thing standing in my way, or I would have already boarded the boat and sailed out to sea!  Eric T. came highly recommended to me from many subscribers and thank you, he’s been very helpful and very accommodating.  Things are looking up!

I have learned a lot the past two weeks while reading all the e-mails.  I just want to say thanks to all for the good, useful information and to some for the entertaining debates.  I hope not to offend anyone with that statement, because I too will be drawn into one of those debates, I’m sure.

Annie

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] digital photos nyc ibogaine forum
Date: March 22, 2005 at 3:21:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’d be interested to receive any interesting digital photographs from the nyc
ibogaine forum to be placed on http://www.ibogaine.org/nyc2005.html and
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nyc2005.html

Please send the images to ibogaine@earthlink.net

Howard

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 22, 2005 at 3:16:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 22.03.2005 um 20:22 schrieb Lee Albert:

And, for me, getting to a state of acceptance and love is the name of the game.
yo! acceptance and love! even to blasphemous Peter Cohen 😉
acceptance and love is the best advertisment for ibogaine! and for spirituality, too.
much better than insults.

cheers ekki

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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 22, 2005 at 2:22:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Ekki,

I have no problem whatsoever that you have arguments against my argumentation. In fact I do myself.

What I am trying to do is highlight my distaste (without getting too intellectual) for the way this whole discussion on Peters part (from the little I understand) seeks to belittle the unique spiritual qualities that eboga offers and I do not accept it should be put on a par with all other mind altering substances.

In order to reach agreement with the purely social scientific discussion that Peter appears to put forward (I stress “appears” as frankly most of it is over my head) it seems to me that one has to treat ibogaine as some kind of generic drug and frankly that is the same as asking amazonian shamans or african pygmies or whatever group to diss their own spirituality.
That I find offensive. However more importantly the whole discussion in the end means zip to me as it does not affect in any way the reality of eboga or my own healing process via its spirituality. Hence I have not spent hours trying to get my head around it other than to pick up on what comes across as offensive comments towards its sacredness.

This email or any other email on the subject won’t make a dam bit of difference to the process of getting from ones present state to a better state unless of course it is part of a process of releasing the shadow within oneself that has been suppressed.

And, for me, getting to a state of acceptance and love is the name of the game.

with love

Lee

ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
dear Lee
i´m with you in that i consider ibogaine as something very special and
devine, a thing peter maybe doesn´t get. i admire what you do in terms
of eboga healing. still i have some arguments against your
argumentation. that doesn´t mean i agree with everything Peter says.

Am 22.03.2005 um 12:45 schrieb Lee Albert:

> Peter,
>
>
>
> You state:
> ‘dependency’ is a complex learned behaviour.
>
>
> As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this
> discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It
> is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you
> attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as
> an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of
> arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.
an “atheist approach” in science, no matter if math or sociology, is
suitable. social inequity was oftentimes justified as god given.(even
today george bush uses a certain religious rhethoric to underpin his
foreign policy.) i agree it is sad that Peter labels voodoo priests and
shamans as primitive to back up his arguments. maybe not his
argumentation, but his position deserves support: contemporary
societies hysterical war against some drugs and its users is irrational
and wrong.
>
> It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus
> ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are)
> anti-intellectual also.
>
>
> Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an
> issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as
> opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I
> read that as a soul issue – psycho/spirituality. You read it as a
> psychological one.
if you call it psychological or spiritual, is this so different? but in
peters point of view, as i understand it, there are enviromental/social
factors involved in dependency, too.

>
>
> IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a
> psychological issue
again: he doesn´t say that. you learn and perform behaviour in society,
don´t you?

> (complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct
> an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads
compared to most academic social theory, he keeps it very simple.

> and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically
> impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone.
thats exactly why he can´t use spirituality as an argument. it´s his
job to present provable concepts.

> It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided
> to distance yourself from.
we don´t know that for sure. even if he is a materialist atheist, so
what?
>
> I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you
> into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor
> will you even consider these possibilities.
that´s an aggressive assumption.
>
>
> That’s all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of
> undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no
> idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary
> your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying
> the interpretation others use for what works for them?
I don´t see how Peters position is destructive and unnecessary. Peter
as well as most ibonauts wants a change in drug poilcy. We are allies
here. Appart from that i don´t see how he detains anyone from taking
ibogaine.
>
>
> Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the
> indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every
> indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with
> a drugs for all paradise?
this is just another offense

>
>
> I respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude
> in your viewpoints
Peter fights for more tolerance concerning drug use and we should be
tolerant against his viewpoints, too.

> and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.
what prejudice exactly?

>
>
> With love,
>
>
> Lee
>

….peace
ekki

> HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Peter and Nick,
>
> Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the
> communications
> between yourself and Peter.
>
> On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
> ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug
> regulatory
> development issues. We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of
> Health, that we
> wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world. We had
> to use
> specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in
> treating a medical
> condition. After all that is what medications are for.
>
> That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to
> the drug
> user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
> sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the
> regulatory agencies
> who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it
> could be
> delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social
> medical
> insurance?
>
> Thanks again to both of you.
>
> Howard
>
> In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
> >RE: dissing a Substance!!
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
> > Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
> > To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
> > Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
> >
> >
> > Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
> >complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in
> someone’s
> >life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different
> than
> >wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left
> when
> >crossing the street
> >
> >
> > It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
> >the
> >ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
> > Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
> >for
> >whom it was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
> >his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people
> who
> >want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from
> ibo.
> > Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long
> time,
> >is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the
> road,
> >as I
> >said often before.
> >
> >
> > I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that
> our
> >voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the
> whole
> >ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we
> have
> >found that the rite the passage from one type of lifestyle to another
> >is
> >sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it
> works.Maybe
> >it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as
> well,
> >but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When it serves, it serves,
> >and
> >if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther
> we
> >will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
> >think
> >you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included,
> because
> >we
> >think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.
> >
> >
> > But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be
> avoided
> >at
> >all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being
> they
> >are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or
> existential
> >ones, but that is a whole other story.
> > pc
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist
> and
> >so
> >I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict”
> or
> >”junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of
> bad
> >feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really
> see
> >where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization
> that
> >one
> >is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they
> physically
> >cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in
> the
> >individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If
> someone
> >is
> >coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
> >therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
> > As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
> >helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds
> they
> >cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy,
> all
> >this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
> >stop.
> >There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually
> a
> >bit
> >of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just
> tell
> >the
> >person to stop if they no longer want to use.
> >
> > Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote
> ibogaine.
> >Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how
> it
> >works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
> >psychological than neurochemical.
> > Thank you for an interesting discussion
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially,
> >have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the
> physical
> >aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the
> degree
> >that
> >they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
> >propose ibogaine should be promoted?
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >–
> >————————————————-
> > Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> > University of Amsterdam
> >
> > Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> > Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> > 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
> >
> > mail address: postbox 94208
> > 1090 GE Amsterdam
> >
> > email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> > tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> > fax +31-20-525 4317
> >
> > World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> > original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> > languages)
> >
>
>
> /]=——————————————————————–
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>
>
>
>
> Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over
> a six year period.
> www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
> Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media /
> librarians etc:
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dreams and subcounciousness
Date: March 22, 2005 at 2:14:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi matt

i couldn´t say how much % i usually remember since i don´t remember how much i don´t remember 😉

i tried writing down dreams too, in the morning, and its fascinating, especially to read them a while later. strange and familiar at the same time. falling asleep and waking up has much more magic when not using.

i read a book “what your dreams mean” last year, were a lot of symbols were explained, and – oh wonder! – exactly the symbols i read about appeared in my dreams. that made me suspicious if i projected what i read in my dreams or if my dreams were making fun of the symbolism in this book, especially since the symbols didn´t seem to express anything attributed to them. maybe everyone´s symbolism is a little different each. generally unsure if its sub or maybe un/over/meta/para/universal/whatever consciousness or a mixture of them and other things.

interpreting dreams as symbolic is to see something as something else. this makes sense. if that concept is taken to extremes, however, then anything is only a signifier for anything which in itself is a signifier without anything signified anymore at the end of the day. seeing things ONLY as symbols is like watering them down.
dreams can influence desicions and tell something without me consciously analyzing them.

i found i prefer not to know entirely what my dreams mean -same with ibogainejourney and life itself.

peace
ekki

Am 21.03.2005 um 19:00 schrieb matthew zielinski:

Dreams are fascinating in that our subcouncious tries to break free and show us/warn us of everything we need to know about….all the things we forget or repress its bound to show up in our dreams.  I have always been fascinated about dreaming/lucid dreaming et….NOw after ibogaine–10 weeks—i noticed that i udnerstnad the symbolism of my dreams with much more depth and i remember 90% of my dreams when i wake–quickly to write it dwon and anylze it later—-but my question is—-do you guys think ibogaine could expand our subcouncious to the level where we can decipher the symbolism behind our dreams with more ease…or is it maybe that since we are not using anything to numb our brain it is easier to remember and expand on everything>?

Warmest Regards

Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from  MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*  /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 1:26:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 22.03.2005 um 18:56 schrieb Dana Beal:

How do Ibogaine’s mechanisms threaten their position?

Junk is the mold of monopoly and possession. The addict stands by while his junk legs carry him straight in on the junk beam to relapse. Junk is quantitative and accurately measurable. The more junk you use the less you have and more you have the more you use. All the hallucingen drugs are considered sacred by those who use them–there are Peyote Cults and Bannisteria Cults, Hashish Cults and Mushroom Cults–“the Sacred Mushrooms of Mexico enable a man to see God”–but no one ever suggested that junk is sacred. There are no opium cults. Opium is profane and quantitative like money. I have heard that there was once a beneficent non-habit-forming junk in India. It was called soma and is pictured as a beautiful blue tide. If soma ever existed the Pusher was there to bottle it and monopolize it and sell it and it turned into plain old time JUNK.

Junk is the ideal product…the ultimate merchandize. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy… The junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client. He pays his staff in junk.

Junk yields a basic formula of “evil” virus: The Algebra of Need. The face of “evil” is always the face of total need. A dope fiend is a man in total need of dope. Beyond a certain frequency need knows absolutely no limit or control. In the words of total need: “Wouldn’t you?” Yes you would. You would lie, cheat, inform on your friends, steal, do anything to satisfy total need. Because you would be in a state of total sickness, total possession, and not in a position to act in any other way. Dope fiends are sick people who cannot act other than they do. A rabid dog cannot choose but bite. Assuming a self-righteous position is nothing to the the purpose unless your purpose be to keep the junk virus in operation. And junk is a big industry. I recall talking to an American who worked for the Aftosa Commission in Mexico. Six hundred a month plus expense account:

“How long will the epidemic last?” I enquired.

“As long as we can keep it going… And yes…maybe the aftosa will break out in South America,” he said dreamily.

If you wish to alter or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial relation, you alter or remove the bottom number. If we wish to annihilate the junk pyramid, we must start with the bottom of the pyramid: the Addict in the Street. And stop tilting quixotically for the “higher ups,” so called, all of whom are immediately replaceable. The addict in the street who must have junk to live is the one irreplaceable factor in the junk equation. When there are no more addicts to buy junk there will be no more junk traffic. As long as junk need exists, someone will service it.

its always nice to read some burroughs. thank you dana 😉
what this excerpt shows is how ibogaine could perhaps reduce the profit-margins of heroin-dealers, but it doesn´t support prohibitionists, either. not only the junky on the street, but also prohibition itself, with its reversible police/state vs. junky/underground logic, keeps the junk-show alive, as burroughs shows with the aftosa analogy. thus i read this text as a support for the legalization movement instead of a thread for them.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Italians move againt ayahuasca church
Date: March 22, 2005 at 1:25:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Coincidentally, a guy by the name of Darpan is scheduled to be back in court
today in Australia on trafficking charges relating to the possession of
800mls of ayahuasca liquid. They’re doing him for harmaline and DMT and,
under Aussie law, apparently, anything over 500mg of these substances is
deemed a traffickable amount, subject to a sentence of up to 20 years.
Seems like someone has got it in for ayahuasca.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 22 March 2005 18:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Italians move againt ayahuasca church

—-Forwarded Message Follows—-
Here’s a near complete translation of an AFP news in Spanish
<http://www.univision.com/contentroot/wirefeeds/world/2192141.html
, which
content is very similar to Italian versions (the police operation was, no
kidding, labeled “operation Mystic” [/operazione Mistica/]):

*Breaking-up in Italy of a religious cult suspected of drug traffic*
18 March 2005
Roma, AFP

A religious cult of Brazilian origin accused of narcotic substances
traffic at an international scale was broken up in the center of
Italy, has announced this Friday the antimafia brigade of the city
of Perugia.

After an investigation that lasted eight months, an arrest order was
issued against 24 members of the pseudo-religious organization
“Santo Daime” or “Ayahuasca” (rope of the spirits in Quechua),
appeared in Brazil at the beginning of the 20th century and which
Italian headquarters are located in Assisi.

The questioned persons are of Italian, French, Brazilian, and
Portuguese nationality

The investigation also permitted to seize 40 liters of a
hallucinogenic psychotropic substance called “dimethyltryptamine”
(DMT) considered a hard drug in Italy according to the antimafia
brigade.

According to the antimafia brigade, the principal figure of this
spiritual movement is a Brazilian who produces and transports the
DMT to Europe.

This person received adhesion requests from the entire world through
electronic mail and a sum between 15 and 30 euros.

The participation to one “Santo Daime” ritual cost 45 euros to the
adepts of the movement or 70 euros for two sessions.

The meetings were held every two weeks, approximatively.

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 1:12:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 22.03.2005 um 18:56 schrieb Dana Beal:

On Mar 22, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Eye of the Bhogi wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:00:09 -0500, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

“What’s worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the legalization movement,
and generally speaking, they won’t deign even to debate it with us.”

I’m still a little confused about the intricacies of this opposition –
this particular swath of legalization to which you refer, are they
advocates of making heroin legal on a principle of self-determination
about what one chooses to do with one’s body?

Yup. That is the given rationale.

And they distance
themselves from or suppress debate about Ibogaine’s unique chemistry
because the logic of their argument is somehow undermined by the
existence of and advocacy for alternative sacred modalities?

It is apparently self-evident from their point of view.

its apparently not self-evident from their point of view: if you support self-determination about what one chooses to do with one´s body than you have to support legalization of ibogaine, too. if one of peters friends is treated at sara´s, than the cohen-camp cannot be radically anti-ibo.

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 1:10:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana,

You sound somewhat like Harry Anslinger.

Howard

In a message dated 3/22/05 12:56:55 PM, dana@phantom.com writes:

On Mar 22, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Eye of the Bhogi wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:00:09 -0500, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

“What’s worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the legalization

movement,
and generally speaking, they won’t deign even to debate it with us.”

I’m still a little confused about the intricacies of this opposition

this particular swath of legalization to which you refer, are they
advocates of making heroin legal on a principle of self-determination
about what one chooses to do with one’s body?

Yup. That is the given rationale.

And they distance
themselves from or suppress debate about Ibogaine’s unique chemistry
because the logic of their argument is somehow undermined by the
existence of and advocacy for alternative sacred modalities?

It is apparently self-evident from their point of view.

How do Ibogaine’s mechanisms threaten their position?

Junk is the mold of monopoly and possession. The addict stands by
while his junk legs carry him straight in on the junk beam to relapse.

Junk is quantitative and accurately measurable. The more junk you use
the less you have and more you have the more you use. All the
hallucingen drugs are considered sacred by those who use them–there
are Peyote Cults and Bannisteria Cults, Hashish Cults and Mushroom
Cults–“the Sacred Mushrooms of Mexico enable a man to see God”–but no

one ever suggested that junk is sacred. There are no opium cults. Opium

is profane and quantitative like money. I have heard that there was
once a beneficent non-habit-forming junk in India. It was called soma
and is pictured as a beautiful blue tide. If soma ever existed the
Pusher was there to bottle it and monopolize it and sell it and it
turned into plain old time JUNK.

Junk is the ideal product…the ultimate merchandize. No sales talk
necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy… The

junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the
consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his
merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client. He pays his staff
in junk.

Junk yields a basic formula of “evil” virus: The Algebra of Need. The

face of “evil” is always the face of total need. A dope fiend is a man

in total need of dope. Beyond a certain frequency need knows absolutely

no limit or control. In the words of total need: “Wouldn’t you?” Yes
you would. You would lie, cheat, inform on your friends, steal, do
anything to satisfy total need. Because you would be in a state of
total sickness, total possession, and not in a position to act in any
other way. Dope fiends are sick people who cannot act other than they
do. A rabid dog cannot choose but bite. Assuming a self-righteous
position is nothing to the the purpose unless your purpose be to keep
the junk virus in operation. And junk is a big industry. I recall
talking to an American who worked for the Aftosa Commission in Mexico.

Six hundred a month plus expense account:

“How long will the epidemic last?” I enquired.

“As long as we can keep it going… And yes…maybe the aftosa will
break out in South America,” he said dreamily.

If you wish to alter or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial
relation, you alter or remove the bottom number. If we wish to
annihilate the junk pyramid, we must start with the bottom of the
pyramid: the Addict in the Street. And stop tilting quixotically for
the “higher ups,” so called, all of whom are immediately replaceable.
The addict in the street who must have junk to live is the one
irreplaceable factor in the junk equation. When there are no more
addicts to buy junk there will be no more junk traffic. As long as junk

need exists, someone will service it.

Can you explain
the political groupings in plainer terms that don’t disparagingly
invoke names and personalities (with their related histories of
personal animus and leftist wrangling)?

I can only speak from my experience. Broadly, virtually all of the
people in Cohen’s camp are drug REFORMERS.

Ibogaine is revolutionary.

I also wonder about grouping all who advocate for knowledge of the
Sacred Tree into one “ibo-camp,” especially seeing as there were some
pretty divergent views expressed at the end of the Forum.

Being treated as a cult is always fairly annoying. That’s why my first

post was entitled, “Science, not a Cult”. So either P.C. won’t submit
his position to peer review, or he regards us as OTHER than his peers.

With watery, aqueous, liquid love (world water day!), Rachel

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 22, 2005 at 1:06:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

dear Lee
i´m with you in that i consider ibogaine as something very special and devine, a thing peter maybe doesn´t get. i admire what you do in terms of eboga healing. still i have some arguments against your argumentation. that doesn´t mean i agree with everything Peter says.

Am 22.03.2005 um 12:45 schrieb Lee Albert:

Peter,

 

You state:
‘dependency’ is a complex learned behaviour.

As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.
an “atheist approach” in science, no matter if math or sociology, is suitable. social inequity was oftentimes justified as god given.(even today george bush uses a certain religious rhethoric to underpin his foreign policy.) i agree it is sad that Peter labels voodoo priests and shamans as primitive to back up his arguments. maybe not his argumentation, but his position deserves support: contemporary societies hysterical war against some drugs and its users is irrational and wrong.

It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are) anti-intellectual also.
Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I read that as a soul issue – psycho/spirituality. You read it as a psychological one.
if you call it psychological or spiritual, is this so different? but in peters point of view, as i understand it, there are enviromental/social factors involved in dependency, too.

 

IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a psychological issue
again: he doesn´t say that. you learn and perform behaviour in society, don´t you?

(complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads
compared to most academic social theory, he keeps it very simple.

and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone.
thats exactly why he can´t use spirituality as an argument. it´s his job to present provable concepts.

It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided to distance yourself from.
we don´t know that for sure. even if he is a materialist atheist, so what?

I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor will you even consider these possibilities.
that´s an aggressive assumption.

That’s all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying the interpretation others use for what works for them?
I don´t see how Peters position is destructive and unnecessary. Peter as well as most ibonauts wants a change in drug poilcy. We are allies here. Appart from that i don´t see how he detains anyone from taking ibogaine.

Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with a drugs for all paradise?
this is just another offense

 

I respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude in your viewpoints
Peter fights for more tolerance concerning drug use and we should be tolerant against his viewpoints, too.

and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.
what prejudice exactly?

 

With love,

Lee

….peace
ekki

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Dear Peter and Nick,

Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the communications
between yourself and Peter.

On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug regulatory
development issues. We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world. We had to use
specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in treating a medical
condition. After all that is what medications are for.

That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social medical
insurance?

Thanks again to both of you.

Howard

In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

>RE: dissing a Substance!!
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
> To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
> Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
>
>
> Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
>complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s
>life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than
>wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when
>crossing the street
>
>
> It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
>the
>ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
> Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
>for
>whom it was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
>his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who
>want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
> Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time,
>is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road,
>as I
>said often before.
>
>
> I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our
>voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.
>
>
> Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole
>ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have
>found that the rite the passage from one type of lifestyle to another
>is
>sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe
>it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well,
>but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When it serves, it serves,
>and
>if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we
>will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
>think
>you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because
>we
>think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.
>
>
> But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided
>at
>all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they
>are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential
>ones, but that is a whole other story.
> pc
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and
>so
>I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or
>”junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad
>feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see
>where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that
>one
>is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically
>cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the
>individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone
>is
>coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
>therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
> As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
>helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they
>cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all
>this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
>stop.
>There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a
>bit
>of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell
>the
>person to stop if they no longer want to use.
>
> Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine.
>Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it
>works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
>psychological than neurochemical.
> Thank you for an interesting discussion
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially,
>have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical
>aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree
>that
>they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
>propose ibogaine should be promoted?
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>–
>————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
>
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Italians move againt ayahuasca church
Date: March 22, 2005 at 1:03:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—-Forwarded Message Follows—-
Here’s a near complete translation of an AFP news in Spanish
<http://www.univision.com/contentroot/wirefeeds/world/2192141.html>, which
content is very similar to Italian versions (the police operation was, no
kidding, labeled “operation Mystic” [/operazione Mistica/]):

*Breaking-up in Italy of a religious cult suspected of drug traffic*
18 March 2005
Roma, AFP

A religious cult of Brazilian origin accused of narcotic substances
traffic at an international scale was broken up in the center of
Italy, has announced this Friday the antimafia brigade of the city
of Perugia.

After an investigation that lasted eight months, an arrest order was
issued against 24 members of the pseudo-religious organization
“Santo Daime” or “Ayahuasca” (rope of the spirits in Quechua),
appeared in Brazil at the beginning of the 20th century and which
Italian headquarters are located in Assisi.

The questioned persons are of Italian, French, Brazilian, and
Portuguese nationality

The investigation also permitted to seize 40 liters of a
hallucinogenic psychotropic substance called “dimethyltryptamine”
(DMT) considered a hard drug in Italy according to the antimafia
brigade.

According to the antimafia brigade, the principal figure of this
spiritual movement is a Brazilian who produces and transports the
DMT to Europe.

This person received adhesion requests from the entire world through
electronic mail and a sum between 15 and 30 euros.

The participation to one “Santo Daime” ritual cost 45 euros to the
adepts of the movement or 70 euros for two sessions.

The meetings were held every two weeks, approximatively.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 12:56:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mar 22, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Eye of the Bhogi wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:00:09 -0500, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

“What’s worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the legalization movement,
and generally speaking, they won’t deign even to debate it with us.”

I’m still a little confused about the intricacies of this opposition –
this particular swath of legalization to which you refer, are they
advocates of making heroin legal on a principle of self-determination
about what one chooses to do with one’s body?

Yup. That is the given rationale.

And they distance
themselves from or suppress debate about Ibogaine’s unique chemistry
because the logic of their argument is somehow undermined by the
existence of and advocacy for alternative sacred modalities?

It is apparently self-evident from their point of view.

How do Ibogaine’s mechanisms threaten their position?

Junk is the mold of monopoly and possession. The addict stands by while his junk legs carry him straight in on the junk beam to relapse. Junk is quantitative and accurately measurable. The more junk you use the less you have and more you have the more you use. All the hallucingen drugs are considered sacred by those who use them–there are Peyote Cults and Bannisteria Cults, Hashish Cults and Mushroom Cults–“the Sacred Mushrooms of Mexico enable a man to see God”–but no one ever suggested that junk is sacred. There are no opium cults. Opium is profane and quantitative like money. I have heard that there was once a beneficent non-habit-forming junk in India. It was called soma and is pictured as a beautiful blue tide. If soma ever existed the Pusher was there to bottle it and monopolize it and sell it and it turned into plain old time JUNK.

Junk is the ideal product…the ultimate merchandize. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy… The junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client. He pays his staff in junk.

Junk yields a basic formula of “evil” virus: The Algebra of Need. The face of “evil” is always the face of total need. A dope fiend is a man in total need of dope. Beyond a certain frequency need knows absolutely no limit or control. In the words of total need: “Wouldn’t you?” Yes you would. You would lie, cheat, inform on your friends, steal, do anything to satisfy total need. Because you would be in a state of total sickness, total possession, and not in a position to act in any other way. Dope fiends are sick people who cannot act other than they do. A rabid dog cannot choose but bite. Assuming a self-righteous position is nothing to the the purpose unless your purpose be to keep the junk virus in operation. And junk is a big industry. I recall talking to an American who worked for the Aftosa Commission in Mexico. Six hundred a month plus expense account:

“How long will the epidemic last?” I enquired.

“As long as we can keep it going… And yes…maybe the aftosa will break out in South America,” he said dreamily.

If you wish to alter or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial relation, you alter or remove the bottom number. If we wish to annihilate the junk pyramid, we must start with the bottom of the pyramid: the Addict in the Street. And stop tilting quixotically for the “higher ups,” so called, all of whom are immediately replaceable. The addict in the street who must have junk to live is the one irreplaceable factor in the junk equation. When there are no more addicts to buy junk there will be no more junk traffic. As long as junk need exists, someone will service it.

Can you explain
the political groupings in plainer terms that don’t disparagingly
invoke names and personalities (with their related histories of
personal animus and leftist wrangling)?

I can only speak from my experience. Broadly, virtually all of the people in Cohen’s camp are drug REFORMERS.

Ibogaine is revolutionary.

I also wonder about grouping all who advocate for knowledge of the
Sacred Tree into one “ibo-camp,” especially seeing as there were some
pretty divergent views expressed at the end of the Forum.

Being treated as a cult is always fairly annoying. That’s why my first post was entitled, “Science, not a Cult”. So either P.C. won’t submit his position to peer review, or he regards us as OTHER than his peers.

With watery, aqueous, liquid love (world water day!), Rachel

Our other big thing is water reclamation to reverse the worst effects of Global Warming, BTW.

Dana/cnw

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 12:52:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Eye of the Bhogi [mailto:freedomroot@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 March 2005 17:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:00:09 -0500, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

“What’s worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the
legalization movement,
and generally speaking, they won’t deign even t[o] debate it with us.”

I’m still a little confused about the intricacies of this opposition –
this particular swath of legalization to which you refer, are they
advocates of making heroin legal on a principle of self-determination
about what one chooses to do with one’s body?  And they distance
themselves from or suppress debate about Ibogaine’s unique chemistry
because the logic of their argument is somehow undermined by the
existence of and advocacy for alternative sacred modalities?

How do Ibogaine’s mechanisms threaten their position?  Can you explain
the political groupings in plainer terms that don’t disparagingly
invoke names and personalities (with their related histories of
personal animus and leftist wrangling)?

I also wonder about grouping all who advocate for knowledge of the
Sacred Tree into one “ibo-camp,” especially seeing as there were some
pretty divergent views expressed at the end of the Forum.

With watery, aqueous, liquid love (world water day!), Rachel

Hi Rachel,

I don’t know how much of a “movement” the legalize heroin thing is. Perhaps
Dana could say more. But, as I see it, Peter has no problem with ibogaine
itself but is upset that ibogaine people use the “language of addiction” so
much. Terms like “addict”, “non-addict”, “dependent”, “treatment”,
“therapy”, etc upset him as his take is that these are the words of the Evil
Empire – the medical establishment. For sure, many people into ibogaine use
this language.

He doesn’t seem to like it that ibogaine offers to maintain this language
AND effectively treat addiction because this threatens his perspective.
That’s my take, anyway.

Personally, I like his position, but I do think he could be a little more
open to different ideas. I don’t know whether Peter represents a broad base
of activists or is more a one-off. If he does represent a broader base of
people or if there actually is a Legalize Heroin movement developing that
opposes ibogaine in this way then it would be great to have more
communication with them.

Nick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 12:14:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:00:09 -0500, Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com> wrote:

“What’s worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the legalization movement,
and generally speaking, they won’t deign even t[o] debate it with us.”

I’m still a little confused about the intricacies of this opposition –
this particular swath of legalization to which you refer, are they
advocates of making heroin legal on a principle of self-determination
about what one chooses to do with one’s body?  And they distance
themselves from or suppress debate about Ibogaine’s unique chemistry
because the logic of their argument is somehow undermined by the
existence of and advocacy for alternative sacred modalities?

How do Ibogaine’s mechanisms threaten their position?  Can you explain
the political groupings in plainer terms that don’t disparagingly
invoke names and personalities (with their related histories of
personal animus and leftist wrangling)?

I also wonder about grouping all who advocate for knowledge of the
Sacred Tree into one “ibo-camp,” especially seeing as there were some
pretty divergent views expressed at the end of the Forum.

With watery, aqueous, liquid love (world water day!), Rachel

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Date: March 22, 2005 at 11:00:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Howard,

Thanks for bringing up such an excellent point. I got a message back from
Peter. He seemed a bit upset that I’d copied his mails to the list. I guess
I should have checked with him that it was alright first. Anyway, he doesn’t
seem to want to discuss any more and appears to just want to hold his
position that the ibo-camp’s language is wrong and that’s just how it is.
It’s disappointing that he chose to bring things to an end precisely at the
moment such interesting points were being raised and I wrote and told him
this. Maybe he’ll change his mind later.

Nick

As I said, his mind is made up, don’t confuse him with facts. What’s worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the legalization movement, and generally speaking, they won’t deign even tp debate it with us. Ibogaine, the spiritual alternative to opiates, simply doesn’t exist, as far as they’re concerned, and should be ignored and suppressed “for our own good.”

Dana/cnw

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 22, 2005 at 6:45:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Peter,

You state:
‘dependency’ is a complex learned behaviour.
As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.

It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are) anti-intellectual also.

Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I read that as a soul issue – psycho/spirituality. You read it as a psychological one.

IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a psychological issue (complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone. It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided to distance yourself from.

I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor will you even consider these possibilities.

That’s all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying the interpretation others use for what works for them?

Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with a drugs for all paradise?

I respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude in your viewpoints and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.

With love,

Lee

HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Dear Peter and Nick,

Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the communications
between yourself and Peter.

On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug regulatory
development issues. We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world. We had to use
specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in treating a medical
condition. After all that is what medications are for.

That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social medical
insurance?

Thanks again to both of you.

Howard

In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

>RE: dissing a Substance!!
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
> To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
> Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
>
>
> Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
>complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s
>life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than
>wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when
>crossing the street
>
>
> It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
>the
>ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
> Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
>for
>whom it was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
>his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who
>want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
> Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time,
>is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road,
>as I
>said often before.
>
>
> I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our
>voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.
>
>
> Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole
>ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have
>found that the rite the passage from one type of lifestyle to another
>is
>sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe
>it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well,
>but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When it serves, it serves,
>and
>if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we
>will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
>think
>you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because
>we
>think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.
>
>
> But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided
>at
>all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they
>are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential
>ones, but that is a whole other story.
> pc
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and
>so
>I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or
>”junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad
>feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see
>where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that
>one
>is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically
>cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the
>individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone
>is
>coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
>therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
> As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
>helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they
>cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all
>this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
>stop.
>There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a
>bit
>of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell
>the
>person to stop if they no longer want to use.
>
> Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine.
>Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it
>works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
>psychological than neurochemical.
> Thank you for an interesting discussion
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially,
>have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical
>aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree
>that
>they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
>propose ibogaine should be promoted?
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>–
>————————————————-
> Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
> University of Amsterdam
>
> Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
> Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
> 1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
>
> mail address: postbox 94208
> 1090 GE Amsterdam
>
> email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
> tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
> fax +31-20-525 4317
>
> World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
> original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
> languages)
>

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 22, 2005 at 6:28:34 AM EST
To: “Ibogaine Mindvox” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 21 March 2005 20:30
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk; cohen.cedro@uva.nl; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!

Dear Peter and Nick,

Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the
communications
between yourself and Peter.

On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for
drug regulatory
development issues.  We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of
Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world.  We
had to use
specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in
treating a medical
condition.  After all that is what medications are for.

That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both
to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the
regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it
could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or
social medical
insurance?

Thanks again to both of you.

Howard

Hi Howard,

Thanks for bringing up such an excellent point. I got a message back from
Peter. He seemed a bit upset that I’d copied his mails to the list. I guess
I should have checked with him that it was alright first. Anyway, he doesn’t
seem to want to discuss any more and appears to just want to hold his
position that the ibo-camp’s language is wrong and that’s just how it is.
It’s disappointing that he chose to bring things to an end precisely at the
moment such interesting points were being raised and I wrote and told him
this. Maybe he’ll change his mind later.

Nick

In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

RE: dissing a Substance!!
—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!

Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s
life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than
wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look
left when
crossing the street

It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
the
ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
for
whom it  was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who
want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a
long time,
is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road,
as I
said often before.

I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our
voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.

Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside
the whole
ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could
say: we have
found that the rite the passage from  one type of lifestyle to another
is
sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it
works.Maybe
it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is
important as well,
but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When  it serves, it serves,
and
if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we
will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
think
you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because
we
think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.

But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided
at
all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick
being they
are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential
ones, but that is a whole other story.
pc
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and
so
I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or
“junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad
feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see
where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that
one
is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically
cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the
individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone
is
coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they
cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all
this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
stop.
There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a
bit
of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell
the
person to stop if they no longer want to use.

Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine.
Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it
works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
psychological than neurochemical.
Thank you for an interesting discussion

Nick

The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does,
experientially,
have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency –
the physical
aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree
that
they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
propose ibogaine should be promoted?

Nick


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: GULFCOASTNAMA@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dreams and subcounciousness
Date: March 21, 2005 at 3:31:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If you want to read a life-changing book related to consciousness, check out “Destiny of Souls”. It is just unbelievable! It really has made an influence in my thinking. Thanks ya’ll  Odubya

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 21, 2005 at 3:29:48 PM EST
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk, cohen.cedro@uva.nl, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Peter and Nick,

Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the communications
between yourself and Peter.

On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug regulatory
development issues.  We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world.  We had to use
specific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in treating a medical
condition.  After all that is what medications are for.

That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social medical
insurance?

Thanks again to both of you.

Howard

In a message dated 3/21/05 6:42:06 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:

RE: dissing a Substance!!
—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!

Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a
complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s
life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than
wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when
crossing the street

It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by
the
ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use,
for
whom it  was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against
his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who
want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time,
is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road,
as I
said often before.

I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our
voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.

Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole
ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have
found that the rite the passage from  one type of lifestyle to another
is
sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe
it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well,
but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When  it serves, it serves,
and
if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we
will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we
think
you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because
we
think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.

But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided
at
all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they
are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential
ones, but that is a whole other story.
pc
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and
so
I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or
“junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad
feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see
where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that
one
is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically
cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the
individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone
is
coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the
therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of
helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they
cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all
this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to
stop.
There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a
bit
of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell
the
person to stop if they no longer want to use.

Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine.
Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it
works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more
psychological than neurochemical.
Thank you for an interesting discussion

Nick

The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially,
have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical
aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree
that
they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
propose ibogaine should be promoted?

Nick


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam

email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The genuine article?
Date: March 21, 2005 at 3:22:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carlton,

The question you want to ask of the supplier is, whether their produce is
total root or root bark only.  Total root is a worthless product not used
anywhere in the world.  It is 90%+ wood and contains virtually no ibogaine.  Root
bark contains  usually between 2% and 4% ibogaine.  Sometimes less and sometimes
more.  The second question to your supplier would be if they have determined
the alkaloid content of their product and further if they have determined the
ibogaine content of their product.  Usually ibogaine is about 50% of the total
alkaloid content of Tabernanthe iboga root bark.

Let us know what they say.

As for the costs of ibogaine therapy, the key cost issue is in the care and
the personnel and time involved rather than in the cost of the crude root.
There is also a somewhat higher cost for purified ibogaine and to a lesser extent
for total alkaloid extracts.

Howard

In a message dated 3/21/05 1:47:58 AM, carltonb@mindspring.com writes:

Hello… I live in Japan and I’ve found that iboga is not illegal here.
The product being sold appears to be a grated root, at a price of US $30
for 5 grams.  It can be ordered on the internet.

How much is generally taken as a therapeutic dose?   Is there an easily
accessible way for me to verify that the product really is T. iboga?  I
am a little wary because the Japanese head shops deal in a lot of fly agaric
and sage extract, and like to re-market it as other things.

If this product can really be had for US $30, what exactly is going on
with these “treatment centers” charging $1,000 to $10,000 for the privilege
of eating a root?

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Dreams and subcounciousness
Date: March 21, 2005 at 1:00:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dreams are fascinating in that our subcouncious tries to break free and show us/warn us of everything we need to know about….all the things we forget or repress its bound to show up in our dreams.  I have always been fascinated about dreaming/lucid dreaming et….NOw after ibogaine–10 weeks—i noticed that i udnerstnad the symbolism of my dreams with much more depth and i remember 90% of my dreams when i wake–quickly to write it dwon and anylze it later—-but my question is—-do you guys think ibogaine could expand our subcouncious to the level where we can decipher the symbolism behind our dreams with more ease…or is it maybe that since we are not using anything to numb our brain it is easier to remember and expand on everything>?

Warmest Regards

Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: marcus israel <vesch69@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 21, 2005 at 11:10:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Dr. P,
Marcus (israel) writing to you from sunburn Fla
just yesterday i sent communication to the projectt
site, more or less to let them know that i’m alive and
relatively well (considering where i was and what i
was doing when they last experienced me)  i’ve been
w/o H & C since November , and last month finally
completed detoxification from Meth…decided to come
down here for myriad of reasons..
I think of you always and trust you are well
New e-mail address to use, please extend my greetings
to F, Dm, Dana, etc…
tell em to write,
with all the love i have to give,
Marcus  vesch69aol.com
vesch69@aol.com
if you
— Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

HI all,
I have posted this report of my own first ibo
voyage here before, but in
light of some others reposting and simply posting
their experiences, I
thought what the heck, perhaps I should do the same,
so here’s my repost of
my report of my initial intiation into the ibo club
(one Nick I believe
belongs to too, so in that role I CAN listen to you
Nick – and I’m joking
with you Nick. BTW, you’re still misreading and
misquoting me at every
opportunity and I’m now at the point where
everything you post with my name
on it get’s immediately deleted. Our blatant dislike
for one another doesn’t
have to keep popping up on the public list for
everyone to share in- I don’t
like the way you insist on pretending I’m unwilling
to listen to you because
you aren’t a junkie or former junkie, and it appears
you are simply going to
insist that has some basis in reality- or at least
you have zero respect for
me and anything I’ve so far written and said as near
as I can tell from each
and every reply you have to anything I write is any
indication.
Admit it Nick, I drive you crazy because I use
lots of very strong
medically prescribed opiates legally and don’t seem
to suffer all the
stereotypical life problems you seem convinced I
have to suffer if I want
(and NEED) to use opiates- and it depresses and
pisses you off because I
don’t fit into the mold you keep trying to stuff me
into.
Anyway, here’s my own report of my own first ibo
experience, for those
who’ve arrive here since last August.

http://www.drugwar.com/pkickingdrugswithdrugs.shtm

Kicking Drugs with Drugs-
Taking the Left Hand Path
By Preston Peet
For DrugWar.com
Posted August 12, 2004
(image)
Ibogaine
“Watch for communications soon from another friend
of ours,” the Voice said,
almost giggling with glee. “He’s gonna have a number
for you to call, to get
in touch with some folk doing underground, guerilla
ibogaine treatments in
NYC, this coming August.”
Immediately I’m feeling all sorts of conflicting
emotions. Because here it
is, no more talking about wanting to do it, or
wondering on this or that
email list what the effects are and if it really,
really does work to
interrupt or cure or help people get over a wide
variety of addictions. If
it is here in my own city and I can get it at much
cheaper rates than were I
to fly to some foreign country where it’s either
legal or simply not
regulated at all yet, how in the hell am I, a
seasoned, proud proponent of
cognitive liberty and the free taking of powerful
mind expanding drugs, a
veritable Drug Expert, Author and psychonaut, going
to live it down if I
chicken out and say, “oh, no thank you”?
snip-
Read Complete Article at above URL

There’s also a brief interview with the man
responsible for ibogaine
reaching NYC streets via guerilla
treatments just below the “kicking drugs with drugs”
piece on the mainpage
at DrugWar.com.

http://www.drugwar.com/ibonyc.shtm

(NYC’s Guerilla Ibogaine Treatments- a brief
discussion
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
posted at DrugWar.com
August 26, 2004
On a gorgeous sunny afternoon in Manhattan’s Lower
East Side, between my own
first and second sessions on ibogaine, an African
root that has been
reported useful in the kicking of a variety of
substance addictions and
self-abuse patterns in the West by many researchers
and private individuals,
I carried out the following interview. I met in
Tompkins Square Park with
FM, who for the month of August was leading a band
of guerilla ibogaine
treatment facilitators, treating an assortment of
people with ibogaine for
myriad reasons.
Having been one of the lucky few who made contact
with this group and was
initiated and treated with ibogaine HCL, I was
interested in hearing more
about the man who made this experience possible for
me and many other New
York City addicts.
snip-
Read interview at above URL)

Enjoy all and wish me luck finally traveling
tomorrow- Five hours to go
before I get picked up at my door to go to the
airport- boy do I have the
butterflies in my guts right now- I gotta smoke some
pot or something.
Sorry all, I sometimes I can’t help lashing out
with humorous slurs at
Nick- but it doesn’t have anything to do with
ibogaine or anything
constructive at all, so I apologize for allowing
myself such petty pleasures
publicly.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to
Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out
Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass
civilization

Hi Mat

Thanks for sending me the link to your experience
WOW have you indulged in
psychedelics before?? you express yourself very
well thanks for sharing.

I have some questions – you say in your writing
that ibogaine gave you
some
insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you
were always looking for
reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you
examples of this or did
the initial awareness spark off your own examples
– either way I’d love to
know what they were.

How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that
folk have the tests done
first? your journey seemed very short from what I
have read it should be
something from 2 days to a week –

Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to
if not?
Can you tell me some history of your addiction –
how long? to what? how
did
you use? IV smoke both etc.
Are you still clean how long has it been and what
have you tried before??
iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s
then thats okay just
don’t
answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you
could
=== message truncated ===

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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 21, 2005 at 9:18:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Am 20.03.2005 um 21:03 schrieb Chris Hunter:

Wow, that was soaked in theory but thanks – I’m not sure how much I understand of what has been written but it looks good, I think. Hmm does it have to get so complicated?? I guess maybe it does, does it? can that be written without the scientific babble/?

Chris, sorry that it came across as babble. some terms used may be disputable but i tried to be rather clear since i´m myself opposed to the obscure postmodernist talk widespread in contemporary humanities that often leads to blatant irrationalism (see alan sokal for illustration) and withdraws potential for social change.
btw i find peter cohen makes clear statements for a good purpose, no matter what he thinks about ibogaine.
-ekki

Time for a glass of wine I think – I have a question for all on the list – has everyone that has experienced ibogaine managed to write down as much of the journey as possible including  a reflective analysis??

I just think it would make a great publication if it was all gathered together for others to add to – I bit like the Erowid experience vaults but more detailed

I know its an incredibly personal journey but we learn and grow only from each other and the earth.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:18:01 +0100

what follows contains some theory stuff, you have been warned

Am 19.03.2005 um 22:46 schrieb Chris Hunter:

Santa the shaman looks good to me Kiersten, but why have we come to this point where things of wonder are concsealed in greed and power? have you got a website handy re santa’s original story – I was about to boycot the whole thing. every holiday appears to be nothing more than a capalist wet deam.

i took some notes this week that seem to correlate:

trends of contemporary mass civilization(adorno/horkheimer: dialectics of enlightenment(LA 1944)):
1- the growth of instrumental rationality (for profit margins/power) to the detriment of substantial/critical rationality
2- the subjugation of the individual and of nature to the dictates of (global) capital
3- the invasion of personal life by dehumanized structures of control
4- the proliferation of large-scale socially induced psychological pathology in the form of authoritarianism, police power and other variants on fascism
->?cultural effects of these tendencies in the spheres of the power/knowledge nexus, culture industries and language
->?contextualization within a global anthropological perspective on human consciousness

this results in, for example:
-exploitation and sellout of myths (like santa claus-coca cola), which also ends modernist and structuralist belief in them (in the history of literary criticism)
-the junky as parody of the ideal consumer mirroring over-production and doubling greed and self-destruction. heroin as parody of the ideal product.
-the rise of psychiatry and the “therapeutic state” (see thomas szasz)
-prohibition as an attempt to regain control over unmanagable (and unproductive in a way) subcultures
-the war against junkies as a way to canalize self-hate of capitalist society (again junky as mirror)
-power/profit/knowledge: withholding ibogaine as an effective way to change drug habits and gain insights
-jazzing up children with sugar and coffein and then calming them down with ritalin (see 1)
and so on

i just scribbles these points down and maybe its not precise and there are many more. they already represent opinions but i don´t try to impose any (yet;)) but am rather curious if and what comments there will be.

what i like about “dialectics of enlightenment” is that, while giving an appealing analysis that served as a starting point for post-modern theory, it was written too early to fall into the poststructuralist vertigo of underdetermined concepts and undecidable ambiguities which makes effective resistance (in theory) impossible.

cheers ekki

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 21, 2005 at 6:57:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 21 March 2005 06:01
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

HI all,
I have posted this report of my own first ibo voyage here
before, but in
light of some others reposting and simply posting their experiences, I
thought what the heck, perhaps I should do the same, so here’s my
repost of
my report of my initial intiation into the ibo club (one Nick I believe
belongs to too, so in that role I CAN listen to you Nick – and I’m joking
with you Nick. BTW, you’re still misreading and misquoting me at every
opportunity and I’m now at the point where everything you post
with my name
on it get’s immediately deleted. Our blatant dislike for one
another doesn’t
have to keep popping up on the public list for everyone to share
in- I don’t
like the way you insist on pretending I’m unwilling to listen to
you because
you aren’t a junkie or former junkie, and it appears you are
simply going to
insist that has some basis in reality- or at least you have zero
respect for
me and anything I’ve so far written and said as near as I can
tell from each
and every reply you have to anything I write is any indication.
Admit it Nick, I drive you crazy because I use lots of very strong
medically prescribed opiates legally and don’t seem to suffer all the
stereotypical life problems you seem convinced I have to suffer if I want
(and NEED) to use opiates- and it depresses and pisses you off because I
don’t fit into the mold you keep trying to stuff me into.
Anyway, here’s my own report of my own first ibo experience,
for those
who’ve arrive here since last August.

Hi Preston,

You don’t drive me crazy. I don’t feel like massively engaged with you. I
like to debate with you and personally I’d say I like you. For sure we
haven’t met yet, but one day.

I don’t really see how I’m misreading and misquoting you, to be honest. Can
you give me an example? I wrote the other day that I thought you dismissed
arguments presented to you that came from non-addicts, or non former
addicts, on the grounds that we didn’t know anything about drugs or drug
treatment. You wrote back that you were starting to listen to this but then
realized that I wasn’t a junkie and so couldn’t know where you were at.
Well, frankly, I’d say you were reinforcing what I was saying really.

I am happy that your life on drugs is good. I don’t feel depressed by it. If
you want to use drugs, what’s the problem? My position is I like to try and
move people towards not using heroin but it’s a waste of time except with
people who at least partly want to. I mean, we debate away but really,
anyone who didn’t want to listen would just tell me to fuck off. But you
stick with it and write long things justifying how you are, as if you need
to justify how you are, which tells me that somewhere you don’t really buy
your own position. I’m happy you’re like that.

Nick

http://www.drugwar.com/pkickingdrugswithdrugs.shtm

Kicking Drugs with Drugs-
Taking the Left Hand Path
By Preston Peet
For DrugWar.com
Posted August 12, 2004
(image)
Ibogaine
“Watch for communications soon from another friend of ours,” the
Voice said,
almost giggling with glee. “He’s gonna have a number for you to
call, to get
in touch with some folk doing underground, guerilla ibogaine
treatments in
NYC, this coming August.”
Immediately I’m feeling all sorts of conflicting emotions.
Because here it
is, no more talking about wanting to do it, or wondering on this or that
email list what the effects are and if it really, really does work to
interrupt or cure or help people get over a wide variety of
addictions. If
it is here in my own city and I can get it at much cheaper rates
than were I
to fly to some foreign country where it’s either legal or simply not
regulated at all yet, how in the hell am I, a seasoned, proud
proponent of
cognitive liberty and the free taking of powerful mind expanding drugs, a
veritable Drug Expert, Author and psychonaut, going to live it down if I
chicken out and say, “oh, no thank you”?
snip-
Read Complete Article at above URL

There’s also a brief interview with the man responsible for ibogaine
reaching NYC streets via guerilla
treatments just below the “kicking drugs with drugs” piece on the
mainpage
at DrugWar.com.

http://www.drugwar.com/ibonyc.shtm

(NYC’s Guerilla Ibogaine Treatments- a brief discussion
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
posted at DrugWar.com
August 26, 2004
On a gorgeous sunny afternoon in Manhattan’s Lower East Side,
between my own
first and second sessions on ibogaine, an African root that has been
reported useful in the kicking of a variety of substance addictions and
self-abuse patterns in the West by many researchers and private
individuals,
I carried out the following interview. I met in Tompkins Square Park with
FM, who for the month of August was leading a band of guerilla ibogaine
treatment facilitators, treating an assortment of people with
ibogaine for
myriad reasons.
Having been one of the lucky few who made contact with this group and was
initiated and treated with ibogaine HCL, I was interested in hearing more
about the man who made this experience possible for me and many other New
York City addicts.
snip-
Read interview at above URL)

Enjoy all and wish me luck finally traveling tomorrow- Five hours to go
before I get picked up at my door to go to the airport- boy do I have the
butterflies in my guts right now- I gotta smoke some pot or something.
Sorry all, I sometimes I can’t help lashing out with humorous
slurs at
Nick- but it doesn’t have anything to do with ibogaine or anything
constructive at all, so I apologize for allowing myself such
petty pleasures
publicly.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

Hi Mat

Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you
indulged in
psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for sharing.

I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you
some
insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always
looking for
reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of
this or did
the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way
I’d love to
know what they were.

How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the
tests done
first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should be
something from 2 days to a week –

Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not?
Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? how
did
you use? IV smoke both etc.
Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you
tried before??
iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just
don’t
answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on
abductmeplease@hotmail.com

Much Love

Chris

_________________________________________________________________
It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Date: March 21, 2005 at 6:41:21 AM EST
To: “Peter Cohen” <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Cc: “Ibogaine Mindvox” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!

Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word ‘dependency’ is a complex learned behaviour that is not ‘chemical’, but useful in someone’s life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when crossing the street

It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive ‘possession’ language by the ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use, for whom it  was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.
Changing one’s ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time, is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road, as I said often before.

I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.

Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have found that the rite the passage from  one type of lifestyle to another is sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well, but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When  it serves, it serves, and if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we think you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because we think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.

But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided at all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential ones, but that is a whole other story.
pc
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and so I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like “addict” or “junkie.” Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that one is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone is coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
As I see it, your theory doesn’t really deal with the nitty-gritty of helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to stop. There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a bit of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell the person to stop if they no longer want to use.

Also…thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine. Might I ask why you are so keen to state that “we have not a clue how it works”? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more psychological than neurochemical.
Thank you for an interesting discussion

Nick

The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially, have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree that they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you propose ibogaine should be promoted?

Nick


————————————————-
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam

Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands

mail address: postbox  94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317

World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)

From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 21, 2005 at 3:03:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hope you Enjoy Cali
The first 20 seconds are for you Preston.

Enjoy all and wish me luck finally traveling
tomorrow-

http://www.drugwar.com/pkickingdrugswithdrugs.shtm

http://www.drugwar.com/ibonyc.shtm
Five hours to go
before I get picked up at my door to go to the
airport- boy do I have the
butterflies in my guts right now- I gotta smoke some
pot or something.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to
Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out
Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass
civilization

Hi Mat

Thanks for sending me the link to your experience
WOW have you indulged in
psychedelics before?? you express yourself very
well thanks for sharing.

I have some questions – you say in your writing
that ibogaine gave you
some
insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you
were always looking for
reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you
examples of this or did
the initial awareness spark off your own examples
– either way I’d love to
know what they were.

How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that
folk have the tests done
first? your journey seemed very short from what I
have read it should be
something from 2 days to a week –

Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to
if not?
Can you tell me some history of your addiction –
how long? to what? how
did
you use? IV smoke both etc.
Are you still clean how long has it been and what
have you tried before??
iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s
then thats okay just
don’t
answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you
could
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: “Carlton B” <carltonb@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] The genuine article?
Date: March 21, 2005 at 1:47:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello… I live in Japan and I’ve found that iboga is not illegal here.
The product being sold appears to be a grated root, at a price of US $30 for
5 grams.  It can be ordered on the internet.

How much is generally taken as a therapeutic dose?   Is there an easily
accessible way for me to verify that the product really is T. iboga?  I am a
little wary because the Japanese head shops deal in a lot of fly agaric and
sage extract, and like to re-market it as other things.

If this product can really be had for US $30, what exactly is going on with
these “treatment centers” charging $1,000 to $10,000 for the privilege of
eating a root?

Thanks….

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 21, 2005 at 1:01:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI all,
I have posted this report of my own first ibo voyage here before, but in light of some others reposting and simply posting their experiences, I thought what the heck, perhaps I should do the same, so here’s my repost of my report of my initial intiation into the ibo club (one Nick I believe belongs to too, so in that role I CAN listen to you Nick – and I’m joking with you Nick. BTW, you’re still misreading and misquoting me at every opportunity and I’m now at the point where everything you post with my name on it get’s immediately deleted. Our blatant dislike for one another doesn’t have to keep popping up on the public list for everyone to share in- I don’t like the way you insist on pretending I’m unwilling to listen to you because you aren’t a junkie or former junkie, and it appears you are simply going to insist that has some basis in reality- or at least you have zero respect for me and anything I’ve so far written and said as near as I can tell from each and every reply you have to anything I write is any indication.
Admit it Nick, I drive you crazy because I use lots of very strong medically prescribed opiates legally and don’t seem to suffer all the stereotypical life problems you seem convinced I have to suffer if I want (and NEED) to use opiates- and it depresses and pisses you off because I don’t fit into the mold you keep trying to stuff me into.
Anyway, here’s my own report of my own first ibo experience, for those who’ve arrive here since last August.

http://www.drugwar.com/pkickingdrugswithdrugs.shtm

Kicking Drugs with Drugs-
Taking the Left Hand Path
By Preston Peet
For DrugWar.com
Posted August 12, 2004
(image)
Ibogaine
“Watch for communications soon from another friend of ours,” the Voice said, almost giggling with glee. “He’s gonna have a number for you to call, to get in touch with some folk doing underground, guerilla ibogaine treatments in NYC, this coming August.”
Immediately I’m feeling all sorts of conflicting emotions. Because here it is, no more talking about wanting to do it, or wondering on this or that email list what the effects are and if it really, really does work to interrupt or cure or help people get over a wide variety of addictions. If it is here in my own city and I can get it at much cheaper rates than were I to fly to some foreign country where it’s either legal or simply not regulated at all yet, how in the hell am I, a seasoned, proud proponent of cognitive liberty and the free taking of powerful mind expanding drugs, a veritable Drug Expert, Author and psychonaut, going to live it down if I chicken out and say, “oh, no thank you”?
snip-
Read Complete Article at above URL

There’s also a brief interview with the man responsible for ibogaine reaching NYC streets via guerilla
treatments just below the “kicking drugs with drugs” piece on the mainpage at DrugWar.com.

http://www.drugwar.com/ibonyc.shtm

(NYC’s Guerilla Ibogaine Treatments- a brief discussion
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
posted at DrugWar.com
August 26, 2004
On a gorgeous sunny afternoon in Manhattan’s Lower East Side, between my own first and second sessions on ibogaine, an African root that has been reported useful in the kicking of a variety of substance addictions and self-abuse patterns in the West by many researchers and private individuals, I carried out the following interview. I met in Tompkins Square Park with FM, who for the month of August was leading a band of guerilla ibogaine treatment facilitators, treating an assortment of people with ibogaine for myriad reasons.
Having been one of the lucky few who made contact with this group and was initiated and treated with ibogaine HCL, I was interested in hearing more about the man who made this experience possible for me and many other New York City addicts.
snip-
Read interview at above URL)

Enjoy all and wish me luck finally traveling tomorrow- Five hours to go before I get picked up at my door to go to the airport- boy do I have the butterflies in my guts right now- I gotta smoke some pot or something.
Sorry all, I sometimes I can’t help lashing out with humorous slurs at Nick- but it doesn’t have anything to do with ibogaine or anything constructive at all, so I apologize for allowing myself such petty pleasures publicly.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization

Hi Mat

Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you indulged in
psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for sharing.

I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you some
insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always looking for
reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of this or did
the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way I’d love to
know what they were.

How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the tests done
first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should be
something from 2 days to a week –

Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not?
Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? how did
you use? IV smoke both etc.
Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you tried before??
iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just don’t
answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on
abductmeplease@hotmail.com

Much Love

Chris

_________________________________________________________________
It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

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From: Krista Vaughan <krista.vaughan@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] two talks I wanted more info on please.
Date: March 20, 2005 at 8:08:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The talks I was most interested in were ibogaine maintenance and the
ibogaine safety talk. I have read the ibogaine manual but the talk Dr.
Kamlet gave contained much more information that was specific and
isn’t available there. I really also wanted the ibogaine maintenance
talk frm Patrick Kroupa. I have looked online and in pubmed and what
he talked about doesn’t exist, or there is nobody else doing it. There
is no research at all about giving ibogaine on a daily basis or to
people who are still using opiates. I very much would appreciate even
a summary of these two talks if neither one of you want them on
Mindvox or online. Both talks are missing from the conference
presentations Howard Lotsof posted to the Ibogaine Dossier.

I understand both of you are busy and don’t read all this every day
but whenever you have a chance it would be much appreciated. Thank
you.

KV

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:22:29 EST, Schmoolyboy@aol.com
<Schmoolyboy@aol.com> wrote:

What do you want? asummary of my lecture. I do not want my slides perse , to
be out thwere. I have recieved many requwsts for them. I will be glad to
wriye up a summary if that is what you seek.

About Sainthood, don’t hold your breath but i will do my best.

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From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 20, 2005 at 6:56:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris,

Remembering that alcohol, tobacco, coca leaves, cocoa beans, etc., were all sacraments powerful enough to change energy states and create sacred space when used in a sacred fashion… and similarly, like Santa Claus, when taken out of their sacred matrices, still have enormous power, but are no longer used only  “for the good.”  I think, I hope,  ibogaine and ayahuasca are powerful and intense enough not to be so easily packaged by the pharm industry, and so will hopefully remain in their sacred circles, retaining their sacred power….and what does sacred mean? Powerful, effective, real change, for (the) good.

xo,
Kiersten

On Mar 19, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Chris Hunter wrote:

Hi Kiersten

Santa the shaman looks good to me Kiersten, but why have we come to this point where things of wonder are concsealed in greed and power? have you got a website handy re santa’s original story – I was about to boycot the whole thing. every holiday appears to be nothing more than a capalist wet deam.

what are your thoughts on ibogaine?

Much Love

Chris

From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:15:30 -0800

Santa Claus is a Saami [Lapplander] shaman who has a message of  abundance and transcendence for us–but Coca Cola stole his identity in  the 1920s……there is power and truth even in the sold out stories  they tell us. penetrate to the core, and be free.

On Mar 17, 2005, at 10:17 AM, Chris Hunter wrote:

howdy M

I liketo follow that idea of evolution, maybe Ibogaine is another step  but instead of the big bang style awakening its more like a fine  tuning of an already well developed spirit and soul. The thing that  gets in the way is as you say negativity.

I think that something on this planet is growing from our negativity –  this is maybe why the media and governments keep bleding our hearts  and minds with such imagery of darckness and misery.

I don’t understand how we got to this point is our development to do  nothing but soak ourselves in greed and power. I know sod all about  this planet and little more about myslef, because I’ve been playing  the game thats sold to us as Santa Claus is sold to us from childhood.

Its time to start making a new game I think and all it takes are  ‘thoughts’ because nothing is what it is without a firstly being one  thought shared and felt be the people of this planet.

Good news is all around us but we fail to see it every day becasue we  are blinkered by the powers of government the ultimate manipulators.

Look to the earth and feel the only real power – nature, love and light

Good thoughts
Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get  a habit?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:16:49 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!   http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Date: March 17, 2005 6:16:49 AM PST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get  a habit?
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Chris

I wouldnt be suprised if sacred substances did spark the evolution on  this planet.  Take Eboga for example…lets say millions of years ago  a chimp stumbled on eboga by accident and ingested it……No matter  wha his brain capacity he would get in tuned with the whole  universe…maybe he wouldnt undesrtand anything aat first but with  time his counciousnes would expand and begin to evolve……i agree  with you about the whole issue of legal/illegal drugs–i mean why the  fuck is alchohol leagal and causes more deaths than heroin/coke etc  combined and is extremly addictive–that just makes no sense –i think  its a big political game–a big reason there is so much drugs is  because alot of what is confiscated goes right back on the  street,etc….yes brother unity is everything!!!!!!!!without it we are  lost…..if we as a society dont realize we are all one we will perish  in dispondency….without love there is hate and with hate the  negative nergy not only will have imense impact on this planet but in  all this beautifull universe……ONe love

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter”  <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use  Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:25:32  +0000 Hi Mat Its a shame when folk milk the system and that happens a  lot in the UK to. Methadone is another addiction but on the scale of  things its safer than H and much easier to control. I guess it depends  on what the individual wants to do, many people seem to need some sort  of drug in their systems for a million reasons. What about  legalisation?? Drugs have been with us since our perception of time  began, in fact some would argue that certain drugs actually sparked  the evolution of human consciouness. I don’t see how it helps to have  drugs classified as legal and illegal – it seems to give many people  the green light to abuse themselves with some false perception that  maybe alcohol is safe and Heroin is dangerous?? this sort of system  also allows many others to kill themselves with dirty drugs,  equipmment, social stigma and criminal justice systems becasue they  chose to use somethng like Heroin. Is it not about time that we as a  race acknowledgee that we do take drugs and always will take drugs and  start to look at how we can enhance our perception, tune our spirits  and help those who take it too far with as much support as possible.  Obvioulsy we would need to buy into a new way of thinking and tune out  of the negative false perception that governments use to bleed us all  dry. Unity is all there really is – we’ve just been detuned from it.  Just a few thoughts Much Love Chris >From: “matthew zielinski”  <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use  Methadone before you >get a habit? >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:35:49  -0500 >  _________________________________________________________________ Want  to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!  http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ << message3.txt >>  /]=——————————————————————– -=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:  http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=——————————————————————– -=[/

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Kiersten Leigh Johnson, M.A.

Department of Rhetoric
Program in Film Studies
7408 Dwinelle Hall #2670
University of California
Berkeley, CA 94720-2670

Mobile phone: 510.508.9597
TeleFAX: 510.642.8881

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Pychic Divas
firebright@mac.com
510 508 9597
510 932 3048

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From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] and also…
Date: March 20, 2005 at 6:25:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry about the poor spelling, I am doing this in the dark

From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] and also…
Date: March 20, 2005 at 6:22:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What do you want? asummary of my lecture. I do not want my slides perse , to be out thwere. I have recieved many requwsts for them. I will be glad to wriye up a summary if that is what you seek.

About Sainthood, don’t hold your breath but i will do my best.

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 20, 2005 at 5:16:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris
I love sharing my experience with anybody who will listen….i did acid and mushrooms ocasionly when i was 16-19 and had some meanigfull spirtual trips but never anything like this…. i got the insight into why i coldnt stop by a clear voice in my head stating those exact phrases ” u were always looking for reasons to start using instead of loking for reasons to stop…….and even if iu did manage to stop u would start again because u thought smack was devine……” and after that everything clicked …..but i had no imagees or visions of it…..just when the trip ended i anylezed that voice and understood that all my past failures of abstiance were exactly due to those errors….i was supose to do the ekg and blood test but in all honesty i didnt care if ibo killed me or cured me …i knew that people with hep c with liver enzymes above 200% should be excluded…..my liver enzymes were more than 500% above—-if im correct and i think iam—–.i was too far gone back then….i did ibo by my self in my room….i would definetly recomend somebody to watch over the other person ….no ifs or buts…my case of adiction is a bit complicated becasue i was seeing a psychiatrist during the 2 of my 5 years of adcition so i had a huge habit to benzos and a prety big habit to opioids/opiates becasue i was prescribed massive doesses of diazepam/lorazepam/clonazepam.bromazepam then the oxycontin or diluidid or morphine or fentanyl and it was all free –free for about two years with prescriptions coming every week -2 weeks –so u know…..but before ibo i was using half a gram a day of H with binges of oxy/diluaid/fentanyl whenever i had them…. IV…… also i continued with the benzos cause i still suffered from anxiety insomnia even if it was psycosomatic …although the benzos where not in such massive doses….
on tues its going to be exactly 10 weeks when i did ibo…..i used once 2 weeks ago and im REALLY glad i did because i confirmed to my self that junk is exactly that –JUNK…the reason i did use is i wanted to see if all that shit was worth all the fucken hussle…..it sure wasnt and definetly isnt….it feels good and all but its fucken dirty….the whole exp really put me off with the needles and spoons and seeing my junkie friend shaking from excitemtn when he was cookng his hit was fucken disgusting…..i puked my guts out for the rest of the day and i never puked on h before so that put off even more….i gave the rest of the half gram i bought to my junkie friend and got the fuck out of there……i might due it here and there to take the presure off but there is no way i could do it on a daily basis or even a weekend thing….i dont want to say i got it under control because its so fucken powerful but i feel extremly confident about ever getting a physical habit from it again…from that moment my cravings have almost vanished…take care brother


Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:52:24 +0000 Hi Mat Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you indulged in psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for sharing. I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you some insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always looking for reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of this or did the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way I’d love to know what they were. How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the tests done first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should be something from 2 days to a week – Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not? Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? how did you use? IV smoke both etc. Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you tried before?? iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just don’t answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on abductmeplease@hotmail.com Much Love Chris _________________________________________________________________ It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: March 20, 2005 at 4:53:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@phantom.com]
Sent: 20 March 2005 16:55
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc

On Mar 19, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Preston Peet wrote:

That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you’ve
completely ignored every single thing I’ve ever written or said
apparently if that’s really what you think of me Nick, but that’s ok
with me. I could care less any more about you or your opinion (except
that once again, I’ve bothered to reply, so I obviously don’t
completely don’t care, just almost completely). You’ve certainly not
gotten a single thing right about me or the way I view life or even
you apparently, but again, that’s ok with me. You’re … (short
useless statement about my feelings about you snipped here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it’s a happy one for you, but you
bore the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearly
three weeks old now.

You know, the problem is, this is not really about Preston and Nick.

Hey Dana,

Er, I think it is actually. But feel free to leap in and introduce a string
of not so relevant material (in your timeless manner) anyway.

After a successful meeting with Cong. Nadler’s new aide, who’s totally
into ibo, I contacted Gene Guerrero at OSI (Soros) about finding
Republican co-sponsors for an appropriation, and Gene had never heard
of Ibogaine.

This is a guy who works with Nadelman, who certainly knows about ibo,
but just never tells anyone else it’s a live option.

“The leading personalities of the legalization movement have decided
there is no chance of a hallucinogen being approved to treat
addiction,” quoth David Guard.

The problem is not amongst us, the ibo list. The problem is Peter Cohen
and others leading (in the words of Al White) “a little concerted
effort to keep this thing from the public.”

I don’t think Peter is doing this really. He’s a social theorist. He doesn’t
have a gripe with ibogaine itself, as I understand it, he just doesn’t like
the language people use to promote it. I’m posting what he wrote me, and a
response, today below.

Nick

—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 19 March 2005 22:57
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!

Of course my position has  political  implications,and I look at attitudes
or scientific positions not only from a purely theoretical view.

I do not have a problem with ibogaine as a substance. I do not quite grasp
what you could mean by saying that ibogaine ‘does not fit in’ with me. I
have no problem with any substance people like to take, for any reason. I
have a discussion with the ibo clan about what they make out of ibo and the
language they use to attribute functionality to it because of the politics
behind it, exactly because I perceive the ibo people as potential collegues.
I would have never gone thru the trouble if I did not like many of them or
found their struggle without meaning.

I think that fighting for a free use of ibo is worthwile, but not by
identifying with the ennemy. I speak about constructed reasons for using
ibo, not about a substance per se.

Maybe my infighting serves no one and nothing. But I hope I have been able
to at least illustrate what I mean, and what the the ibo clan language means
according to me. If not I  either stop or do a better job.
pc

Dear Peter,

Many thanks for clarifying that you have no problem with ibogaine itself. I
understand now that it is merely the way that some people promote ibogaine
that causes you to react in the way you do. I admire your position on drugs.
The only thing is…..ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially, have
multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency – the physical
aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree that
they can be separated). So….what I would ask you is – how would you
propose ibogaine should be promoted?

Nick

All in the name of freedom for users of illicit substances. “For our
own good.”

And yes, Peter, I understand all your arguments. I just don’t agree
with them. And you have never responded, point by point, to a thing
I’ve said.

Dana/cnw

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From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 20, 2005 at 3:52:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mat

Thanks for sending me the link to your experience WOW have you indulged in psychedelics before?? you express yourself very well thanks for sharing.

I have some questions – you say in your writing that ibogaine gave you some insights into why you struggled to stop – ie “you were always looking for reasons to start instead of stop” did it show you examples of this or did the initial awareness spark off your own examples – either way I’d love to know what they were.

How is your heart now?? Would you recommend that folk have the tests done first? your journey seemed very short from what I have read it should be something from 2 days to a week –

Did you use a sitter? Would you have preferred to if not?
Can you tell me some history of your addiction – how long? to what? how did you use? IV smoke both etc.
Are you still clean how long has it been and what have you tried before??
iF you are not comfortable with any of these ?’s then thats okay just don’t answer o r if you’d rather keep them off list you could email me on abductmeplease@hotmail.com

Much Love

Chris

_________________________________________________________________
It’s fast, it’s easy and it’s free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 20, 2005 at 3:14:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris
i have writen down my ibo experience…i posted it a few days ago..i love sharing my exprience–hell of a trip i tell u:}

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:03:21 +0000 Wow, that was soaked in theory but thanks – I’m not sure how much I understand of what has been written but it looks good, I think. Hmm does it have to get so complicated?? I guess maybe it does, does it? can that be written without the scientific babble/? Time for a glass of wine I think – I have a question for all on the list – has everyone that has experienced ibogaine managed to write down as much of the journey as possible including a reflective analysis?? I just think it would make a great publication if it was all gathered together for others to add to – I bit like the Erowid experience vaults but more detailed I know its an incredibly personal journey but we learn and grow only from each other and the earth. >From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization >Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:18:01 +0100 > >what follows contains some theory stuff, you have been warned > >Am 19.03.2005 um 22:46 schrieb Chris Hunter: >> >>Santa the shaman looks good to me Kiersten, but why have we come to >>this point where things of wonder are concsealed in greed and >>power? have you got a website handy re santa’s original story – I >>was about to boycot the whole thing. every holiday appears to be >>nothing more than a capalist wet deam. >> > >i took some notes this week that seem to correlate: > >trends of contemporary mass civilization(adorno/horkheimer: >dialectics of enlightenment(LA 1944)): >1- the growth of instrumental rationality (for profit margins/power) >to the detriment of substantial/critical rationality >2- the subjugation of the individual and of nature to the dictates >of (global) capital >3- the invasion of personal life by dehumanized structures of >control >4- the proliferation of large-scale socially induced psychological >pathology in the form of authoritarianism, police power and other >variants on fascism >->?cultural effects of these tendencies in the spheres of the >power/knowledge nexus, culture industries and language >->?contextualization within a global anthropological perspective on >human consciousness > >this results in, for example: >-exploitation and sellout of myths (like santa claus-coca cola), >which also ends modernist and structuralist belief in them (in the >history of literary criticism) >-the junky as parody of the ideal consumer mirroring over-production >and doubling greed and self-destruction. heroin as parody of the >ideal product. >-the rise of psychiatry and the “therapeutic state” (see thomas >szasz) >-prohibition as an attempt to regain control over unmanagable (and >unproductive in a way) subcultures >-the war against junkies as a way to canalize self-hate of >capitalist society (again junky as mirror) >-power/profit/knowledge: withholding ibogaine as an effective way to >change drug habits and gain insights >-jazzing up children with sugar and coffein and then calming them >down with ritalin (see 1) >and so on > >i just scribbles these points down and maybe its not precise and >there are many more. they already represent opinions but i donīt try >to impose any (yet;)) but am rather curious if and what comments >there will be. > >what i like about “dialectics of enlightenment” is that, while >giving an appealing analysis that served as a starting point for >post-modern theory, it was written too early to fall into the >poststructuralist vertigo of underdetermined concepts and >undecidable ambiguities which makes effective resistance (in theory) >impossible. > >cheers ekki > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: ibo stories
Date: March 20, 2005 at 3:47:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,

I also posted my story online.  You can read it here
if you want to:
http://www.ibogatherapy.org/IbonautCafe/186.aspx

Hope everyone is doing great,
Julie

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 20, 2005 at 3:14:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chris
i have writen down my ibo experience…i posted it a few days ago..i love sharing my exprience–hell of a trip i tell u:}

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:03:21 +0000 Wow, that was soaked in theory but thanks – I’m not sure how much I understand of what has been written but it looks good, I think. Hmm does it have to get so complicated?? I guess maybe it does, does it? can that be written without the scientific babble/? Time for a glass of wine I think – I have a question for all on the list – has everyone that has experienced ibogaine managed to write down as much of the journey as possible including a reflective analysis?? I just think it would make a great publication if it was all gathered together for others to add to – I bit like the Erowid experience vaults but more detailed I know its an incredibly personal journey but we learn and grow only from each other and the earth. >From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization >Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:18:01 +0100 > >what follows contains some theory stuff, you have been warned > >Am 19.03.2005 um 22:46 schrieb Chris Hunter: >> >>Santa the shaman looks good to me Kiersten, but why have we come to >>this point where things of wonder are concsealed in greed and >>power? have you got a website handy re santa’s original story – I >>was about to boycot the whole thing. every holiday appears to be >>nothing more than a capalist wet deam. >> > >i took some notes this week that seem to correlate: > >trends of contemporary mass civilization(adorno/horkheimer: >dialectics of enlightenment(LA 1944)): >1- the growth of instrumental rationality (for profit margins/power) >to the detriment of substantial/critical rationality >2- the subjugation of the individual and of nature to the dictates >of (global) capital >3- the invasion of personal life by dehumanized structures of >control >4- the proliferation of large-scale socially induced psychological >pathology in the form of authoritarianism, police power and other >variants on fascism >->?cultural effects of these tendencies in the spheres of the >power/knowledge nexus, culture industries and language >->?contextualization within a global anthropological perspective on >human consciousness > >this results in, for example: >-exploitation and sellout of myths (like santa claus-coca cola), >which also ends modernist and structuralist belief in them (in the >history of literary criticism) >-the junky as parody of the ideal consumer mirroring over-production >and doubling greed and self-destruction. heroin as parody of the >ideal product. >-the rise of psychiatry and the “therapeutic state” (see thomas >szasz) >-prohibition as an attempt to regain control over unmanagable (and >unproductive in a way) subcultures >-the war against junkies as a way to canalize self-hate of >capitalist society (again junky as mirror) >-power/profit/knowledge: withholding ibogaine as an effective way to >change drug habits and gain insights >-jazzing up children with sugar and coffein and then calming them >down with ritalin (see 1) >and so on > >i just scribbles these points down and maybe its not precise and >there are many more. they already represent opinions but i donīt try >to impose any (yet;)) but am rather curious if and what comments >there will be. > >what i like about “dialectics of enlightenment” is that, while >giving an appealing analysis that served as a starting point for >post-modern theory, it was written too early to fall into the >poststructuralist vertigo of underdetermined concepts and >undecidable ambiguities which makes effective resistance (in theory) >impossible. > >cheers ekki > > > >/]=———————————————————————=[\ >[%] Ibogaine List Commands: >http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] > >\]=———————————————————————=[/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 20, 2005 at 3:03:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow, that was soaked in theory but thanks – I’m not sure how much I understand of what has been written but it looks good, I think. Hmm does it have to get so complicated?? I guess maybe it does, does it? can that be written without the scientific babble/?

Time for a glass of wine I think – I have a question for all on the list – has everyone that has experienced ibogaine managed to write down as much of the journey as possible including  a reflective analysis??

I just think it would make a great publication if it was all gathered together for others to add to – I bit like the Erowid experience vaults but more detailed

I know its an incredibly personal journey but we learn and grow only from each other and the earth.

From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:18:01 +0100

what follows contains some theory stuff, you have been warned

Am 19.03.2005 um 22:46 schrieb Chris Hunter:

Santa the shaman looks good to me Kiersten, but why have we come to this point where things of wonder are concsealed in greed and power? have you got a website handy re santa’s original story – I was about to boycot the whole thing. every holiday appears to be nothing more than a capalist wet deam.

i took some notes this week that seem to correlate:

trends of contemporary mass civilization(adorno/horkheimer: dialectics of enlightenment(LA 1944)):
1- the growth of instrumental rationality (for profit margins/power) to the detriment of substantial/critical rationality
2- the subjugation of the individual and of nature to the dictates of (global) capital
3- the invasion of personal life by dehumanized structures of control
4- the proliferation of large-scale socially induced psychological pathology in the form of authoritarianism, police power and other variants on fascism
->?cultural effects of these tendencies in the spheres of the power/knowledge nexus, culture industries and language
->?contextualization within a global anthropological perspective on human consciousness

this results in, for example:
-exploitation and sellout of myths (like santa claus-coca cola), which also ends modernist and structuralist belief in them (in the history of literary criticism)
-the junky as parody of the ideal consumer mirroring over-production and doubling greed and self-destruction. heroin as parody of the ideal product.
-the rise of psychiatry and the “therapeutic state” (see thomas szasz)
-prohibition as an attempt to regain control over unmanagable (and unproductive in a way) subcultures
-the war against junkies as a way to canalize self-hate of capitalist society (again junky as mirror)
-power/profit/knowledge: withholding ibogaine as an effective way to change drug habits and gain insights
-jazzing up children with sugar and coffein and then calming them down with ritalin (see 1)
and so on

i just scribbles these points down and maybe its not precise and there are many more. they already represent opinions but i donīt try to impose any (yet;)) but am rather curious if and what comments there will be.

what i like about “dialectics of enlightenment” is that, while giving an appealing analysis that served as a starting point for post-modern theory, it was written too early to fall into the poststructuralist vertigo of underdetermined concepts and undecidable ambiguities which makes effective resistance (in theory) impossible.

cheers ekki

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From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) meatrix.
Date: March 20, 2005 at 2:10:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sara, you are some fantastic woman!!  I plugged in our zip code and got the list of
businesses (wholesome foods, etc.) that I shop at locally.  Thanks so much.  Nice
to have this site such that I can send it to friends.  Thanks

ann
think@francomm.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Sara Glatt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:58 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) meatrix.

http://www.themeatrix.com/action/

From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: March 20, 2005 at 1:52:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You know, the problem is, this is not really about Preston and Nick.<

understatement of the year.
;-))

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Dana Beal” <dana@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc

On Mar 19, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Preston Peet wrote:

That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you’ve completely ignored every single thing I’ve ever written or said apparently if that’s really what you think of me Nick, but that’s ok with me. I could care less any more about you or your opinion (except that once again, I’ve bothered to reply, so I obviously don’t completely don’t care, just almost completely). You’ve certainly not gotten a single thing right about me or the way I view life or even you apparently, but again, that’s ok with me. You’re … (short useless statement about my feelings about you snipped here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it’s a happy one for you, but you bore the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearly three weeks old now.

You know, the problem is, this is not really about Preston and Nick.

After a successful meeting with Cong. Nadler’s new aide, who’s totally into ibo, I contacted Gene Guerrero at OSI (Soros) about finding Republican co-sponsors for an appropriation, and Gene had never heard of Ibogaine.

This is a guy who works with Nadelman, who certainly knows about ibo, but just never tells anyone else it’s a live option.

“The leading personalities of the legalization movement have decided there is no chance of a hallucinogen being approved to treat addiction,” quoth David Guard.

The problem is not amongst us, the ibo list. The problem is Peter Cohen and others leading (in the words of Al White) “a little concerted effort to keep this thing from the public.”

All in the name of freedom for users of illicit substances. “For our own good.”

And yes, Peter, I understand all your arguments. I just don’t agree with them. And you have never responded, point by point, to a thing I’ve said.

Dana/cnw

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) meatrix.
Date: March 20, 2005 at 12:58:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.themeatrix.com/action/

From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: [Ibogaine] new tune…
Date: March 20, 2005 at 12:00:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

made from samples of music from an bwiti iboga ritual…

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: March 20, 2005 at 11:54:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Mar 19, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Preston Peet wrote:

That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you’ve completely ignored every single thing I’ve ever written or said apparently if that’s really what you think of me Nick, but that’s ok with me. I could care less any more about you or your opinion (except that once again, I’ve bothered to reply, so I obviously don’t completely don’t care, just almost completely). You’ve certainly not gotten a single thing right about me or the way I view life or even you apparently, but again, that’s ok with me. You’re … (short useless statement about my feelings about you snipped here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it’s a happy one for you, but you bore the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearly three weeks old now.

You know, the problem is, this is not really about Preston and Nick.

After a successful meeting with Cong. Nadler’s new aide, who’s totally into ibo, I contacted Gene Guerrero at OSI (Soros) about finding Republican co-sponsors for an appropriation, and Gene had never heard of Ibogaine.

This is a guy who works with Nadelman, who certainly knows about ibo, but just never tells anyone else it’s a live option.

“The leading personalities of the legalization movement have decided there is no chance of a hallucinogen being approved to treat addiction,” quoth David Guard.

The problem is not amongst us, the ibo list. The problem is Peter Cohen and others leading (in the words of Al White) “a little concerted effort to keep this thing from the public.”

All in the name of freedom for users of illicit substances. “For our own good.”

And yes, Peter, I understand all your arguments. I just don’t agree with them. And you have never responded, point by point, to a thing I’ve said.

Dana/cnw

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: March 20, 2005 at 10:30:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 19 March 2005 18:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc

Nick scribbled in his usual delued and completely out of touch
with any sort
of reality connected to my own life anyway

Well, I figure saying this stuff is just a way for Preston and others to
keep us out. “You haven’t been a heroin addict so I don’t have to
listen to
what you have to say.” Routine shit the mind does when it doesn’t want to
hear something -<

I almost let you get my goat here Nick, but then realized yet
again, you are
so “not in my club” that you aren’t worth my bother any more.
;-))

Hey Preston,

Many thanks for this one. It’s a great response, man. “I almost listened to
what you were saying there about me shutting people out by saying they’re
not junkies and so not like me….then I realized you’re not a junkie so I
don’t have to listen to what you’re saying.”

That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you’ve
completely ignored every single thing I’ve ever written or said
apparently
if that’s really what you think of me Nick, but that’s ok with
me. I could
care less any more about you or your opinion (except that once
again, I’ve
bothered to reply, so I obviously don’t completely don’t care,
just almost
completely). You’ve certainly not gotten a single thing right about me or
the way I view life or even you apparently, but again, that’s ok with me.
You’re … (short useless statement about my feelings about you snipped
here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it’s a happy one for you,
but you bore
the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearly
three weeks
old now.

Sorry about that, been in Bali, snorting liquid tobacco with Ratu Bagus. No
internet. My life’s happy, yes.

Nick

For those who’ve been writing about getting clean or clear using
ibogaine lately (I did see some messages come through here in the
last week
or two related to that, no?), more power to you all, and I hope
everything
is going well for you all. Randy, I hope you’re still scaring the
straight
folk with your new you, and to the rest of you, have a great day too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

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From: “Mustafa izgi” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hi Randy!!!!
Date: March 20, 2005 at 4:43:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Randy,
I’m still clean and very very happy. I will be married at the end of this month so I’m affraid of to ruin everything once again. I have two different wishes that conflicting with the other one. One of them is escape everything and everykind of responsibilty other one is to mary with the woman of my life…

What about you? To stay clean and to be an adult one is still hard for you too? But I suppose you are in the ‘normal life’ already. But I think there is so many dificulties in our ‘ clean’ lifes…

Please write me. Your valuable comments are very improtand for me.

Wormest Regards
M

From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:36:07 -0500

Preston, just remeber if you use the barf bag to save it, we could sell it on E bay. Preston Peet’s barf bag would have to be worth something.   Randy
—–Original Message—–
From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:43:41 -0800
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..

Hi Preston,

about your travels…a few things that have helped me: pack your stuff at a leisurely pace way ahead of time. this way, you know that you have everything you need.

These things might seem kinda girlie, but man they work: wear slip-on shoes–easy for airport security and for slipping off during the flight. bring a pair of soft warm cashmere socks to wear while on the plane. get one of those half-donut neck pillows [best with buckwheat on the inside, the inflatable ones work too, but they are a bit less comfortable tho easier to transport] and douse it with organic lavender oil. bring a soft eye pillow thingie [what are those called? sleep masks?]–these are enormously helpful, because they cut out all that weird light. douse that with lavender, too. if you can, get some noise canceling headphones [Bose has some for a pretty penny–make the production company buy them for you!] for all the fatiguing engine noise. Drink liter after liter after liter of water. Never stop drinking. get some evian spray for your face and spritz yourself every so often. finally, make sure you moisturize your hands and face and lips every so often–this will make you more comfortable and you will be pretty and soft when you arrive. finally, attending to all of this hilariously fussy self-comfort stuff will completely distract you from everything else going on!!
have a great time.
kiersten

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_________________________________________________________________
Sadece sohbet ile yetinmeyin – eglneceye de doymak için Messenger’i tercih edin! http://messenger.msn.com/?mkt=tr&DI=3490&XAPID=2584

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] and also…
Date: March 19, 2005 at 9:20:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 3/19/05 1:39:05 AM, jeffgd1@aol.com writes:

I am still seeking something it seems.

Hi Jeff,

When you stop seeking you will be either a saint or dead.  I look forward to
being informed of your sainthood.

Howard

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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] NYC ibogaine forum presentations
Date: March 19, 2005 at 9:18:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

For those of you who could not attend the NYC Ibogaine Forum, the Ibogaine
Dossier has now received a number of presentations that have been placed on the
Dossier.  Additional reports are expected but, here is what is available now
from the links at http://www.ibogaine.org/nyc2005.html or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nyc2005.html

Howard

“Ibogaine Forms, Dose and Dose Regimens”

“Music Therapy and Ibogaine Treatment: Harmonic Symbiosis ”

“New Findings: Dopamine, Craving and Ibogaine Effects”

“Ibogaine and Gene Expression”

“Survey Methamphetamine Treatments with Ibogaine.”

“Ibogaine: Anti-viral Effects”

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From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sacrament] Re: *_* Spectrum Analysis Values of the Ibogaine Molecule
Date: March 19, 2005 at 7:07:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, sacrament@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: sacrament@mindvox.com

Please Forward.  Thx =)


On spectrum analysis values of the ibogaine-molecule

I’m trying to find/make the audible sound of the
Ibogaine molecule
for….
about 10 years now… and am not getting nowhere…
We have some Ibogaine specters at
http://sacrament.kibla.si/
Please help yourself, and hope you’ll send us THE
sound when you make
it
=)
Marko

thank you marko
especially the ir-spectre looks interesting.

for the beginning:
if i take 2 peaks at 221 and 280 nm with relative
amplitude 5:1 and
double them for getting them into the visible
spectrum, then devide the
speed of light by them then i get about 678,3 * 10^12
sec^-1 and 535,4
* 10^12 sec^-1 which is orange and blue

THE COLORS OF IBOGAINE MAY LOOK LIKE THIS OR MAYBE I
AM WRONG 🙂
~
It’s more red and bluish green , iīm afraid.
next time iīll check twice before presenting my
wannabe scientific
discoveries to the public

well the idea is not exactly mine since similar things
have been done
for mdma in berlin in the 90’s and the formulas and
theory are
downloadable, unfortunately only in german language.

what is interesting is that the brain as well as every
molecule and
every plant absorb and radiate waves, and different
frequencies both in
pitch and beat can be related to different states of
mind. special
frequencies are used in sound bowl therapies and i
heard of a clinic
where they use enormous gongs for drug-therapy. in
classical
east-indian music and maybe also in other indigenous
music there are
also numerous relationships between frequencies and
earth rotation, sun
etc. the use of 440Hz for ‘a’ as basic pitch it
totally arbitrary and
doesn’t make much sense.
any audible frequency can be translated into color,
and i wonder how
smells relate to it. i obtained some aromatherapy oils
– thanks julie
– and its fun to experiment with them.

http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articletoshow=63&language=en

the problem with music is that a combination of a few
frequencies
itself is not that exciting, since sounds get their
character and
beauty usually by the way the formants behave over
time.

has there ever been an NMR-spectrum of ibogaine been
made? marko, do
you have data or text files for your spectrum-jpgs?

this is an approximative sonification of the infrared
spectrum of the
ibogaine molecule between 4000 and 700 cm^-1 taken out
of markos jpg.
the 20 peak values were transposed into the audible
range and played
back as sine waves with propositional amplitudes.
since the octavation
is arbitrary i send you different samples.

is there someone out there who knows about theoretical
chemistry and
about how to run academic software like turbomole?

you could be the very first person in the universe to
calculate the
exact idealized spectral data of the
ibogaine-molecule! wouldn’t that
be something? if you cannot do that, maybe you know
someone who can.
then we would have exact frequencies that could be
translated into
sound and colours.

hey vector
the program is reactor
http://www.download.com/Reaktor/3000-2170_4-10228854.html?tag=lst-0-9
, i plan to try it in csound, http://csounds.com too.

The frequencies are calculated from the six most
prominent ir-peaks
found on a medical webpage. the relative amplitudes
are not very exact
i have to admit. there are a lot of sites on forensic
research that
have interesting info on for example how to identify
the ingredients of
xtcpills by their ir-spectra.
i should use the uv values too, somehow.

ir peaks occur at certain wavelength. the frequency is
calculated by
dividing lightspeed trough wavelength, then divided by
2^n which is an
octavation to get it into the audible spectrum. the
same principle is
used in the HClsongs using 56 peaks where other
musical parameters are
calculated like this, too.

hope to come up with more complex and %even% closer
sonic
approximations.

cheers ekki

Am 09.03.2005 um 03:03 schrieb jon:

preliminary spectral ibotronic songs:
http://www.ekkijdfg.de/IBOHClsound.html

ekki,

thanks very much for the samples =)

i made a couple songs out of em too…

and

Jon F.

Ekki and Jon,
I truly enjoyed your pieces.  Ekki, I like the fact
that portions of the Ibo samples sound like a digital
gamelan type of instrument, especially Rendrefou(sorry
if I misspelled this) and Nice and Slow.  I love the
idea of the signification of the Ibogaine molecule, it
is truly ingenious.  Nice and Slow was particularly
hypnotic.

If you are at all interested, there are several
sound bytes of my Ibo pieces online.  They are only
segments of the piece, but they will give you an idea
of what I am doing.  Check them out at your leisure:

http://www.ibogatherapy.org/SoundBytes/default.aspx

Regards,
Andrea

Now getting into mathematical mystery:). the excerpt
has some mistakes
i think. if we invert the number of seconds a year has
(about
3600*24*365.25) and multiply with 2^74 we get 136,10
Hz which is c#d as
you wrote and bluegreen but not 366 as it says in the
book. (194,18
which is half of 388,36 Hz would be a day)  how do
they com up with
366?
i know some people find the number 72 interesting
but iīm not sure
why. i found its 2/3 of 108 which is a magical number
in india,
representig 1vishnu, 0brahma, 8shiva or the three
states of spiritual
experience i.e. oneness/unity, emptiness and
multiplicity/infinity(8
when lying down), also 1^1*2^2*3^3 is 108 and so on.
i wonder what Archimedes Plutonium would say about
this 😉
cheers ekki

Am 09.03.2005 um 16:26 schrieb Preston Peet:

i wonder if this could be done for the humming
noise a lot of people
hear on ibogaine.<

maybe u sing a didgeridoo?
I just read that their note for the Earth, the one
they play to
praise
the Earth/earth itself, they play one tuned to a
note that is just
over c#d, which apparently is, amazingly enough
considering they must
have come up with it scores of thousands of years
ago. This is what
the authors of “Civilization One” have to say on the
subject
(authored
by Christopher Knight and Alan Butler) in the
Conclusions to the
chapter titled Music and Light:

——

Conclusions:

We found that the Megalithic numbers produced
circles that combined
the mathematical ratios known pi and phi. Both and
irrational numbers
yet they produced resuilts that are so close to
being perect to be
negligible. In our investigation we found that an
American PhD
student
had discovered the existence of phi in [Alexander]
Thom’s data back
in
the early 19702- a fact confirmed by the great man
himself when he
described the finding as ‘magical.’

The all-important numbers 366 and 360 are curiously
linked by a
combination of pi and phi because 360 divided by 5
gives a result of
72 and 366 divided by pi x phi also gives the result
of 72. This
suggests that the relationship between the two
Megalithic numbers has
a fundamental resonance with these two very special
rations.

When we turned to the subject of music we found that
Megalithic
mathematics produces its own structure. Sound is
normally measured in
cycles per modern second, known as hertz. (Hz),  but
we considered
using cycles per Megalithic Second, which we called
Thoms (Th). A
frequency of 366 Th is the same as 366 Hz, which
places our
Megalithic
note just slightly above C sharp in modern concern
tuning. This is
effectively the ‘found of the Earth turning’ because
the planet
rotates at a rate of one Megalithic Yard per beat at
the equator.

We found the indigenous Australians consider a
didgeridoo with a note
equal to 366 Th capable of creating sacred Earth
music. Further
investigation of other indigenous music also
revealed Megalithic
rhythm and pitch correspondences. It appears that
there is an
instinctive relationship between the rotating mass
of the planet and
human music. It may indeed have been the
‘involuntary’ sense that
the
mystic and mathematician Pythagoras came to call
‘the harmony of the
spheres.’

When we looked at human sight we found that the
visible part of the
electromagnetic spectrum forms an octave rather like
music. What is
more, if we move exactly 40 octaves up the frequency
scale from a
note
of 366 TH we got to blue light. While nearly all
scientists believe
that light and sound and not connected, we
tentatively feel that
there
might be a resonance between the two that is picked
up by human
perception.
—-

Personally, if there’s anything I’ve ever taken that
put me in touch
with what I might consider an Earth spirit realm of
some kind, I’d
have to say it was ibogaine (and mushrooms and
mescaline too- but
ibogaine really, really put me into a state of utter
weirdness full
of
what I can only describes as many other places right
here in my room
and head but not. Earth spirit realms, to get all
mumbo-jumbo
sounding.
The ibogaine root grows in earth, of the Earth
itself, and so I tend
to subscribe to the personal notion that substances
like ibogaine,
mushrooms, peyote, and all the other plant-based
trippifiers really
could be the link, the key to allow us
communications with the Earth
it/her/himself, the key that unlocks our minds to
the language of the
planet we live on- and those who outlaw those
substances are
embodiments of the literal dark force, the black
evil destructive
side
of things, the ones who will pave over the Earth and
cut us off from
all those modes of communication allowing us to
actually commune
directly with the spirits of the planet and other
spaces too all
around us.
Wow, I sound stoned, and I’m not….really all
that stoned. It’s
all residuals,,,that’s it, that’s the ticket.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is
often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to
Ancient
Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out
Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

thanks for your mix which i enjoyed quite a lot.
Ekki

.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business – Try our new resources site!
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] junk and contemporary mass civilization
Date: March 19, 2005 at 6:18:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

what follows contains some theory stuff, you have been warned

Am 19.03.2005 um 22:46 schrieb Chris Hunter:

Santa the shaman looks good to me Kiersten, but why have we come to this point where things of wonder are concsealed in greed and power? have you got a website handy re santa’s original story – I was about to boycot the whole thing. every holiday appears to be nothing more than a capalist wet deam.

i took some notes this week that seem to correlate:

trends of contemporary mass civilization(adorno/horkheimer: dialectics of enlightenment(LA 1944)):
1- the growth of instrumental rationality (for profit margins/power) to the detriment of substantial/critical rationality
2- the subjugation of the individual and of nature to the dictates of (global) capital
3- the invasion of personal life by dehumanized structures of control
4- the proliferation of large-scale socially induced psychological pathology in the form of authoritarianism, police power and other variants on fascism
->?cultural effects of these tendencies in the spheres of the power/knowledge nexus, culture industries and language
->?contextualization within a global anthropological perspective on human consciousness

this results in, for example:
-exploitation and sellout of myths (like santa claus-coca cola), which also ends modernist and structuralist belief in them (in the history of literary criticism)
-the junky as parody of the ideal consumer mirroring over-production and doubling greed and self-destruction. heroin as parody of the ideal product.
-the rise of psychiatry and the “therapeutic state” (see thomas szasz)
-prohibition as an attempt to regain control over unmanagable (and unproductive in a way) subcultures
-the war against junkies as a way to canalize self-hate of capitalist society (again junky as mirror)
-power/profit/knowledge: withholding ibogaine as an effective way to change drug habits and gain insights
-jazzing up children with sugar and coffein and then calming them down with ritalin (see 1)
and so on

i just scribbles these points down and maybe its not precise and there are many more. they already represent opinions but i don´t try to impose any (yet;)) but am rather curious if and what comments there will be.

what i like about “dialectics of enlightenment” is that, while giving an appealing analysis that served as a starting point for post-modern theory, it was written too early to fall into the poststructuralist vertigo of underdetermined concepts and undecidable ambiguities which makes effective resistance (in theory) impossible.

cheers ekki

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From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 19, 2005 at 4:46:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Kiersten

Santa the shaman looks good to me Kiersten, but why have we come to this point where things of wonder are concsealed in greed and power? have you got a website handy re santa’s original story – I was about to boycot the whole thing. every holiday appears to be nothing more than a capalist wet deam.

what are your thoughts on ibogaine?

Much Love

Chris

From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:15:30 -0800

Santa Claus is a Saami [Lapplander] shaman who has a message of  abundance and transcendence for us–but Coca Cola stole his identity in  the 1920s……there is power and truth even in the sold out stories  they tell us. penetrate to the core, and be free.

On Mar 17, 2005, at 10:17 AM, Chris Hunter wrote:

howdy M

I liketo follow that idea of evolution, maybe Ibogaine is another step  but instead of the big bang style awakening its more like a fine  tuning of an already well developed spirit and soul. The thing that  gets in the way is as you say negativity.

I think that something on this planet is growing from our negativity –  this is maybe why the media and governments keep bleding our hearts  and minds with such imagery of darckness and misery.

I don’t understand how we got to this point is our development to do  nothing but soak ourselves in greed and power. I know sod all about  this planet and little more about myslef, because I’ve been playing  the game thats sold to us as Santa Claus is sold to us from childhood.

Its time to start making a new game I think and all it takes are  ‘thoughts’ because nothing is what it is without a firstly being one  thought shared and felt be the people of this planet.

Good news is all around us but we fail to see it every day becasue we  are blinkered by the powers of government the ultimate manipulators.

Look to the earth and feel the only real power – nature, love and light

Good thoughts
Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get  a habit?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:16:49 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!   http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Date: March 17, 2005 6:16:49 AM PST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get  a habit?
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Chris

I wouldnt be suprised if sacred substances did spark the evolution on  this planet.  Take Eboga for example…lets say millions of years ago  a chimp stumbled on eboga by accident and ingested it……No matter  wha his brain capacity he would get in tuned with the whole  universe…maybe he wouldnt undesrtand anything aat first but with  time his counciousnes would expand and begin to evolve……i agree  with you about the whole issue of legal/illegal drugs–i mean why the  fuck is alchohol leagal and causes more deaths than heroin/coke etc  combined and is extremly addictive–that just makes no sense –i think  its a big political game–a big reason there is so much drugs is  because alot of what is confiscated goes right back on the  street,etc….yes brother unity is everything!!!!!!!!without it we are  lost…..if we as a society dont realize we are all one we will perish  in dispondency….without love there is hate and with hate the  negative nergy not only will have imense impact on this planet but in  all this beautifull universe……ONe love

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter”  <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use  Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:25:32  +0000 Hi Mat Its a shame when folk milk the system and that happens a  lot in the UK to. Methadone is another addiction but on the scale of  things its safer than H and much easier to control. I guess it depends  on what the individual wants to do, many people seem to need some sort  of drug in their systems for a million reasons. What about  legalisation?? Drugs have been with us since our perception of time  began, in fact some would argue that certain drugs actually sparked  the evolution of human consciouness. I don’t see how it helps to have  drugs classified as legal and illegal – it seems to give many people  the green light to abuse themselves with some false perception that  maybe alcohol is safe and Heroin is dangerous?? this sort of system  also allows many others to kill themselves with dirty drugs,  equipmment, social stigma and criminal justice systems becasue they  chose to use somethng like Heroin. Is it not about time that we as a  race acknowledgee that we do take drugs and always will take drugs and  start to look at how we can enhance our perception, tune our spirits  and help those who take it too far with as much support as possible.  Obvioulsy we would need to buy into a new way of thinking and tune out  of the negative false perception that governments use to bleed us all  dry. Unity is all there really is – we’ve just been detuned from it.  Just a few thoughts Much Love Chris >From: “matthew zielinski”  <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use  Methadone before you >get a habit? >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:35:49  -0500 >  _________________________________________________________________ Want  to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!  http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ << message3.txt >>  /]=——————————————————————– -=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:  http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=——————————————————————– -=[/

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Kiersten Leigh Johnson, M.A.

Department of Rhetoric
Program in Film Studies
7408 Dwinelle Hall #2670
University of California
Berkeley, CA 94720-2670

Mobile phone: 510.508.9597
TeleFAX: 510.642.8881

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: March 19, 2005 at 1:11:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick scribbled in his usual delued and completely out of touch with any sort of reality connected to my own life anyway

Well, I figure saying this stuff is just a way for Preston and others to
keep us out. “You haven’t been a heroin addict so I don’t have to listen to
what you have to say.” Routine shit the mind does when it doesn’t want to
hear something -<

I almost let you get my goat here Nick, but then realized yet again, you are so “not in my club” that you aren’t worth my bother any more.
;-))
That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you’ve completely ignored every single thing I’ve ever written or said apparently if that’s really what you think of me Nick, but that’s ok with me. I could care less any more about you or your opinion (except that once again, I’ve bothered to reply, so I obviously don’t completely don’t care, just almost completely). You’ve certainly not gotten a single thing right about me or the way I view life or even you apparently, but again, that’s ok with me. You’re … (short useless statement about my feelings about you snipped here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it’s a happy one for you, but you bore the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearly three weeks old now.
For those who’ve been writing about getting clean or clear using ibogaine lately (I did see some messages come through here in the last week or two related to that, no?), more power to you all, and I hope everything is going well for you all. Randy, I hope you’re still scaring the straight folk with your new you, and to the rest of you, have a great day too.

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc

—–Original Message—–
From: Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Sent: 26 February 2005 18:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Subject: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc

Peter,

First off thanks for spending your time on the list and sharing
your ideas.
I agree with much of what you say in regards to drug use,
prohibition, and
society’s demonization of drug users being harmful. Any man who can make
Dana scream, I respect.

The funny thing is you guys have a little bit in common. I have a feeling
neither of you are wrong much. You both see things in black and
white. Peter
has the advantage of having helped create some of the most amazingly
beneficial drug policy in existence, being smarter and not crazy. With
Peter, there is that old saying ‘too smart for your own pants.’
Dana wrote
his book about the cure for addiction. and runs ‘cures-not-wars.’
Cure this,
cure that.

Peter, you felt free to advise Preston on V’s difficulty with the law for
serving liquor to a minor? You know the laws of the NY state alcohol and
beverage commission? Wow.

Perhaps you need to paint your argument in such broad strokes in order to
raise the discussion and get people to think outside of the constructed
norms.

Just for a minute, I would love for you to consider some of your
positions.
Never wrong? Tapering off and going cold turkey is the best way
to stop? It
works for some but not all. Saying it’s the best way is no
different than a
twelve stepper or an ibo person saying their way is the best way. Finding
reliable data on the efficacy of different treatment modalities
is close to
impossible. What’s wrong with a drug user having options in
helping to quit?
Ibo helps some. Cold turkey works for some. Stanton Peele and you are
probably right in that highest efficacy in stopping use is for those who
just plain stop, outgrow it. What about those who can’t stop no
matter how
much they want to? Rarely does someone try ibo as a the first option. Why
can’t you at least acknowledge that some people have been helped by ibo?

Drug use is often times a reaction to underlying pain, for some ibo helps
deal with that underlying pain and correct the brain chemistry in
such a way
that the need for use is diminished. Why not use it in conjunction with
cognitive treatments and behavior change?

For years I’ve struggled with the disease concept of addiction. I
generally
don’t like it, but what if some of it is true? What if there is some
something to what neurologists say with their fancy scans?

Science has never been close to addiction work, yet there is some good
science with ibo. As much as we share with them as a species, rats don’t
lie. The tests with rats had amazing results. The analogue 18-mc works
excellent in rats and does not appear to have the psychedelic properties.

There might be truth that there is a placebo effect with ibo and
specifically with people having visionary experiences showing
them the way.
That is not what gives ibo it’s anti-addictive properties. I think people
overstate the psychedelic part of ibo. People think they are
related because
they happen at the same time. But hey, if it helps. The trip is
all over the
place. It is a harsh time. People have been looking for god in a
plant for a
long time. Just give me that old time religion. no new time affliction.

Preston suggested that you become hooked, which I think is a
stupid idea in
many ways. First off Preston, it’s not cool to get someone hooked
on dope.
More importantly, if someone like Nick or Peter hasn’t become an
addict yet,
then forget it. It would be forced and not representative of most
addicts.
Most people who take dope hate it and never want to take it again, others
for the first time feel normal. Some like it, some don’t.

Well, I figure saying this stuff is just a way for Preston and others to
keep us out. “You haven’t been a heroin addict so I don’t have to listen to
what you have to say.” Routine shit the mind does when it doesn’t want to
hear something – find an excuse to dismiss it and fence it off somewhere out
of the way. But, guys, we just wanna stop a little suffering, that my intent
anyway. If it’s tough medicine then it’s tough medicine, but I do care.

Nick

Why do some people become addicted and others not? It would suggest some
brain chemistry at work.

I’ve noticed that many long term drug users use because it makes
them feel
normal, it’s a way of dealing. Many have ADD. Many suffered
childhood abuse.
If you where fucked (over) as a kid, the brain didn’t form right.
Drugs make
it feel right. Years of drug use does effect your dopamine
levels. Stopping
makes it really bad. No fun. I tried many times to stop before ibo, never
with any lasting success. Ibo did help me. Ibo did change my
neuro chemistry
in such a way that I felt “normal.” What’s so fucking wrong with that?

If you want to talk about a cult, go to an AA meeting sometime in
America.
Here we have very little in choice in treatment.

Some drug users do grow out of use, some don’t. OK you’ve made up
your mind
to stop. What if tapering off does not work, yet you still want to stop?
What’s wrong with a drug user having a few options in stopping?
Choice is an
awesome thing.

Some things you wrote I wanted to comment on:
“Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has
created its usefulness: prohibition.

For me it is just another ‘miracle’ compound within prohibition,
and within
a theoretical NIDA govererend dominance of pharmacological
understanding of
intense drug use.”

You are not impressed with long history of miracle cures? Morphine for
alcoholism, heroin for morphine addiction don’t impress you?

Ibo has been around longer than prohibition as has harmful drug
use. It is
not only prohibition which causes some drug use to be harmful.
Drugs are not
evil, it’s some people’s use patterns that can be harmful. If ibo were
around in the US before the opiate prohibition, I’m sure some
people would
have benefited then.

The African Nganga’s have been using ibo for a long time. Drug
abuse is one
of the conditions they treat. It’s a poor country with few hospitals. The
‘witch doctors’ use ibo and a plethora of other plants to treat sickness.
Even Schweitzer had a toleration if not a slight respect for the witch
doctors

It’s not a miracle compound, it’s a tool. NIDA didn’t like it, remember?
18-mc either. What’s wrong with wanting to fix or heel ones mind? What’s
wrong with having a few tools at the disposal of a drug user wishing to
stop? Slamming your hand with a hammer can be a learning
experience, so can
ibo be a learning experience.

As far as cultural tourism: What? Your favorite tanning spot in the Greek
isles get spoiled? A bunched of pasty Northerners looking for sunshine
ruined it all? The great city of Amsterdam, home of Rembrandt and
the Dutch
East Indies Co having turned into the Tijuana of Europe upsets you?

What are the options? The cat is out of the bag as far as
globalization. In
Gabon there was recently a National Park system created which is (as a %)
the second largest in the world. If tourists do not go, it will not stay
protected. A poor country will sell it’s resources. The oil
companies, the
Chinese searching for wood are better than a few people interested in
studying local traditions? Poor countries need capital, as sad as
it is. I’m
less of an asshole than the oil companies and spread money out more
equitably.

There is a long history of Europeans and Americans taking from Gabon and
Africa and not giving back. Slaves, rubber, diamonds, oil, iboga.
Why not go
and spend money there on local traditions, helping feed some people? How
many of the people making money off of ibo are giving any back?

If you want to stop the destruction of the world, stop using oil
for heat,
electricity, any fosil fuels for transportation, pay no taxes,
make your own
clothes and grow your own food. Tough to do.

What I learned in Gabon was not so much from the iboga as the people and
watching the society at work. Society’s based on village model
can teach us.
Seeing how another culture deals with sickness was fascinating.
They do not
believe in microbes, that sickness is partly a result of trouble
with social
relations. What is also interesting is that they would not use what they
consider a sacred root for a detox. The would make you clean up
first, then
do it.

I wish ibogaine, 18-mc and nor-ibogaine were available for
addicts the world
over and for people wanting a spiritual experience to go Gabon.

A question for you: do you think there is a Darwinian reason for
drug use?
Why do some humans like to get fucked up?

So, what’s your story? How did you become the semiotic drug
expert who hates
drug experts?

Thanks for the work you have done with drug use.

Take care,
Steve. Ibo clan member #341268.

Sara: Go for fucks sake.

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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ritalin Kills
Date: March 19, 2005 at 9:17:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I am reproducing this because some kids are taken away from their parents if parents won’t let schools give them ritalin–

http://www.ritalindeath.com/
Death From Ritalin
The Truth Behind ADHD
www.RitalinDeath.com
You can visit our ADHD message Board at:
http://www.ritalindeath.com/board/?topic=topic1

I am here to warn parents of the risks involved in giving children
psychotropic medications used to treat ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity
Disorder). These behaviors are listed in the DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for
ADHD.

Our fourteen-Year-old Son Matthew died on March 21, 2000. The cause was
determined to be from the long-term (age 7-14) using of Methylphenidate a
medication commonly known as Ritalin.

The Certificate of Death under due to, (or because of) reads Death caused
from Long Term Use of Methylphenidate, (Ritalin). According to Dr. Ljuba
Dragovic, The chief pathologist in Oakland County Michigan, upon autopsy,
Matthew’s heart showed clear signs of small vessel damage, the type caused
by stimulant drugs like amphetamines.

The medical examiners told me that a full-grown man’s heart weighs about 350
grams and that Matthew’s heart weight was about 402 grams.

Matthew did not have a preexisting heart disease or defect that we knew of.
We, his parents never ignored his medical needs. The medical examiner said
this type of heart damage is not easy to detect with the standard test
necessary for prescription refills.

While visiting the doctor with the school’s diagnosis and the recommendation
for Ritalin, he seemed very frustrated and asked us to let the school know,
“I am not a pharmacy.” This leads me to believe that we were not the first
parents sent to this doctor, with the schools diagnosis and recommendation
for Ritalin.

No one ever informed us of other crucial tests (echo-cardiogram) that we
could have had done that would have discovered the enlargement of the heart
muscle, caused from scare tissue which these types of drugs cause. The
standard test performed consists of blood work, listening to the heart,
questions about school behaviors, sleeping and eating habits.

It all started for Matthew in the first grade the school social worker in
Berkley, Michigan kept calling us in for meetings. One particular morning
before an IEP meeting, the school social worker Monica, my wife and I, were
waiting on the others to arrive.

Monica made us feel very threatened when she said that if we wouldn’t
consider getting Matt on Ritalin for their evaluation of Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder, that Social Services (Child Protective Services)
could charge us for neglecting his educational and emotional needs. My wife
and I were scared of the possibility of losing our children, if we did not
comply.

I believe that some school teachers like having children medicated because,
it makes frustrated students that are having a difficult time learning and
understanding, easier to manage, regardless of the physical and
psychological risks this practice poses to children.

Not all families can afford hundreds of dollars for a drug free, private
evaluation, so they will not be cornered into medicating their child. I am
hoping that Republicans and Democrats will work together and fight this
horrific war against the forced drugging of our children.

Medical diagnosis should remain outside the realm of education and stay
there. Pressure to seek specific medical treatment is not the job of the
school system.

We did not want Matthew on any medications, even though the school social
worker or the doctor never informed us about the dangers of Ritalin and
other stimulant medications used for ADD and ADHD. We just didn’t feel good
about putting our son on drugs and we made it very clear to school
officials.

“Informed Consent”, which states in part “A person’s agreement to allow
something to happen [such as surgery] that is based on a full disclosure of
the facts needed to make the decision intelligently; i.e. knowledge of risks
involved, alternatives etc” and “the probable risks against the probable
benefits.”

The violation of parent’s rights is when they are not told of the
unscientific nature of so-called disorders such as ADHD or the risks of the
treatments involving (drugs) and they certainly are not told of alternatives
to their child’s behavior such as undiagnosed allergies or food
sensitivities, which could manifest with the symptoms of what psychiatry
calls ADHD.

If we weren’t pressured by the school system, Matt would still be alive
today. I cannot go back and change things for us at this point. However, I
hope to God my story and information will reach the hearts and minds, of
many families, so they can make an educated decision with more than a little
selective information, if any, paid for by psychology and drug companies.

I have created a website in hopes that parents will learn the health risks
involved in using psychotropic medications on growing children.

I hope you will be spared all the suffering and heartbreak this whole ADHD
issue has caused our family and many others.

Please do not be intimidated by family, school staff, doctors, or anyone
into medicating your child for ADHD or ADD. These mental illnesses are
scientifically unfounded with no scientific validity what so ever. The
dopamine theory is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of
psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry.

I truly believe this must have been my son’s purpose, to save the health and
lives of many others.

How old will people live after taking these types of drugs as a child? Every
time I hear about a child or young adult that has died from heart failure, I
always wonder if they were ever on a psychotropic medication used for ADHD
or depression.

If I would have known about all the children that have died from these
psychiatric medications, I would have never given Matt the first pill.

Did you know that children that are diagnosed as having ADHD or ADD and take
medication, the school labels them as learning disabled, and the schools
receives additional state and federal funding per-child, per-semester.

I wonder if that is one of the reasons why school administrators are so
adamant about medication, and the other would be to control their behavior,
in their drug free school zone.

One of the hardest things for me to deal with is the fact that, Matthew
never wanted his medication.

How many more children will have to die before someone puts a stop to the
biggest health care fraud ever? How many times will school psychology and
drug companies get away with this?

In 1998 at the National Institutes of Health Consensus Conference on ADHD
the NIH issued the following statement regarding ADHD:

“We do not have an independent, valid test for ADHD, and there is no data to
indicate that ADHD is due to a brain malfunction.”

Children, do not need to be made into little robots with medication. I feel
that good parenting, structure, diets, and teaching methods can make all the
difference in the world. Different children develop in different ways; you
cannot put children all into one box.

Did you know that the ADHD diagnosis checklist of behaviors is almost the
same as the list of behaviors for gifted children (visit The National
Foundation for Gifted and Creative Children at http://www.nfgcc.org

The DEA has classified Ritalin as a schedule two drug, comparable to
Cocaine. Ritalin is also one of the top ten abused prescription drugs on the
streets today.

From the research that I have done when these types of drugs are used all
the veins and arteries constrict and get very small which makes it hard for
the heart to pump blood throughout the body. The extra force it takes to
circulate blood causes damage to the heart.

There are many other drugs that are given to children for ADHD with
different names; Adderall, Concreta, Metadate, Ritalin, the list goes on and
on, most if not all are stimulant drugs, amphetamines-speed”

We are coming to a point in our history where children have been taking
these drugs for some time. Now the truth is starting to come out.

Between the years of 1990-2000 over 569 children were hospitalized, 38 of
them were life threatening hospitalizations, and 186 died from these drugs.
Our children are being used as guinea pigs. Death is a very sad why for
parents to learn the long-term side effects.

Now that history has revealed the dangers and deaths of so many children
caused from psychostimulant drugs used for ADD, attention deficit disorder
and ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder Eli Lilly and Company has
developed a drug known as Strattera.

Eli Lilly and Company is cramming the idea of adult ADD into the minds of
normal American people with their television advertisements.

In a round about way Eli Lilly and Company is asking people to ask their
doctor about getting a prescription for Strattera.

Is it because they care about you or is because they want your money?

Eli Lilly and Company is a drug maker; it’s your money they are after.

Now we have a drug maker not only targeting children but adults as well.

ADD and ADHD are bogus disorders without a scientific leg to stand on.

If ADD and ADHD was a real medical issue you could go to the doctor and get
a blood test to determine its validity.

Even though there has been no long term research done on Strattera the FDA
has approved it, therefore when people start dying from Strattera I feel the
FDA should be held accountable.

In my state MI, the first and only, the law states that if the drug has been
approved by the FDA and you die from the drug, the drug company is not held
accountable.

A coalition needs to be formed the people against the FDA.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Date: March 19, 2005 at 8:50:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Steven Anker [mailto:stevenanker@hotmail.com]
Sent: 26 February 2005 18:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Subject: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc

Peter,

First off thanks for spending your time on the list and sharing
your ideas.
I agree with much of what you say in regards to drug use,
prohibition, and
society’s demonization of drug users being harmful. Any man who can make
Dana scream, I respect.

The funny thing is you guys have a little bit in common. I have a feeling
neither of you are wrong much. You both see things in black and
white. Peter
has the advantage of having helped create some of the most amazingly
beneficial drug policy in existence, being smarter and not crazy. With
Peter, there is that old saying ‘too smart for your own pants.’
Dana wrote
his book about the cure for addiction… and runs ‘cures-not-wars.’
Cure this,
cure that.

Peter, you felt free to advise Preston on V’s difficulty with the law for
serving liquor to a minor? You know the laws of the NY state alcohol and
beverage commission? Wow.

Perhaps you need to paint your argument in such broad strokes in order to
raise the discussion and get people to think outside of the constructed
norms.

Just for a minute, I would love for you to consider some of your
positions.
Never wrong? Tapering off and going cold turkey is the best way
to stop? It
works for some but not all. Saying it’s the best way is no
different than a
twelve stepper or an ibo person saying their way is the best way. Finding
reliable data on the efficacy of different treatment modalities
is close to
impossible. What’s wrong with a drug user having options in
helping to quit?
Ibo helps some. Cold turkey works for some. Stanton Peele and you are
probably right in that highest efficacy in stopping use is for those who
just plain stop, outgrow it. What about those who can’t stop no
matter how
much they want to? Rarely does someone try ibo as a the first option. Why
can’t you at least acknowledge that some people have been helped by ibo?

Drug use is often times a reaction to underlying pain, for some ibo helps
deal with that underlying pain and correct the brain chemistry in
such a way
that the need for use is diminished. Why not use it in conjunction with
cognitive treatments and behavior change?

For years I’ve struggled with the disease concept of addiction. I
generally
don’t like it, but what if some of it is true? What if there is some
something to what neurologists say with their fancy scans?

Science has never been close to addiction work, yet there is some good
science with ibo. As much as we share with them as a species, rats don’t
lie. The tests with rats had amazing results. The analogue 18-mc works
excellent in rats and does not appear to have the psychedelic properties.

There might be truth that there is a placebo effect with ibo and
specifically with people having visionary experiences showing
them the way.
That is not what gives ibo it’s anti-addictive properties. I think people
overstate the psychedelic part of ibo. People think they are
related because
they happen at the same time. But hey, if it helps… The trip is
all over the
place. It is a harsh time. People have been looking for god in a
plant for a
long time. Just give me that old time religion… no new time affliction.

Preston suggested that you become hooked, which I think is a
stupid idea in
many ways. First off Preston, it’s not cool to get someone hooked
on dope.
More importantly, if someone like Nick or Peter hasn’t become an
addict yet,
then forget it. It would be forced and not representative of most
addicts.
Most people who take dope hate it and never want to take it again, others
for the first time feel normal. Some like it, some don’t.

Well, I figure saying this stuff is just a way for Preston and others to
keep us out. “You haven’t been a heroin addict so I don’t have to listen to
what you have to say.” Routine shit the mind does when it doesn’t want to
hear something – find an excuse to dismiss it and fence it off somewhere out
of the way. But, guys, we just wanna stop a little suffering, that my intent
anyway. If it’s tough medicine then it’s tough medicine, but I do care.

Nick

Why do some people become addicted and others not? It would suggest some
brain chemistry at work.

I’ve noticed that many long term drug users use because it makes
them feel
normal, it’s a way of dealing. Many have ADD. Many suffered
childhood abuse.
If you where fucked (over) as a kid, the brain didn’t form right.
Drugs make
it feel right. Years of drug use does effect your dopamine
levels. Stopping
makes it really bad. No fun. I tried many times to stop before ibo, never
with any lasting success. Ibo did help me. Ibo did change my
neuro chemistry
in such a way that I felt “normal.” What’s so fucking wrong with that?

If you want to talk about a cult, go to an AA meeting sometime in
America.
Here we have very little in choice in treatment.

Some drug users do grow out of use, some don’t. OK you’ve made up
your mind
to stop. What if tapering off does not work, yet you still want to stop?
What’s wrong with a drug user having a few options in stopping?
Choice is an
awesome thing.

Some things you wrote I wanted to comment on:
“Ibo can not dissociate itself from the social context in which it has
created its usefulness: prohibition.

For me it is just another ‘miracle’ compound within prohibition,
and within
a theoretical NIDA govererend dominance of pharmacological
understanding of
intense drug use.”

You are not impressed with long history of miracle cures? Morphine for
alcoholism, heroin for morphine addiction don’t impress you?

Ibo has been around longer than prohibition as has harmful drug
use. It is
not only prohibition which causes some drug use to be harmful.
Drugs are not
evil, it’s some people’s use patterns that can be harmful. If ibo were
around in the US before the opiate prohibition, I’m sure some
people would
have benefited then.

The African Nganga’s have been using ibo for a long time. Drug
abuse is one
of the conditions they treat. It’s a poor country with few hospitals. The
‘witch doctors’ use ibo and a plethora of other plants to treat sickness.
Even Schweitzer had a toleration if not a slight respect for the witch
doctors

It’s not a miracle compound, it’s a tool. NIDA didn’t like it, remember?
18-mc either. What’s wrong with wanting to fix or heel ones mind? What’s
wrong with having a few tools at the disposal of a drug user wishing to
stop? Slamming your hand with a hammer can be a learning
experience, so can
ibo be a learning experience.

As far as cultural tourism: What? Your favorite tanning spot in the Greek
isles get spoiled? A bunched of pasty Northerners looking for sunshine
ruined it all? The great city of Amsterdam, home of Rembrandt and
the Dutch
East Indies Co having turned into the Tijuana of Europe upsets you?

What are the options? The cat is out of the bag as far as
globalization. In
Gabon there was recently a National Park system created which is (as a %)
the second largest in the world. If tourists do not go, it will not stay
protected. A poor country will sell it’s resources. The oil
companies, the
Chinese searching for wood are better than a few people interested in
studying local traditions? Poor countries need capital, as sad as
it is. I’m
less of an asshole than the oil companies and spread money out more
equitably.

There is a long history of Europeans and Americans taking from Gabon and
Africa and not giving back. Slaves, rubber, diamonds, oil, iboga.
Why not go
and spend money there on local traditions, helping feed some people? How
many of the people making money off of ibo are giving any back?

If you want to stop the destruction of the world, stop using oil
for heat,
electricity, any fosil fuels for transportation, pay no taxes,
make your own
clothes and grow your own food. Tough to do.

What I learned in Gabon was not so much from the iboga as the people and
watching the society at work. Society’s based on village model
can teach us.
Seeing how another culture deals with sickness was fascinating.
They do not
believe in microbes, that sickness is partly a result of trouble
with social
relations. What is also interesting is that they would not use what they
consider a sacred root for a detox. The would make you clean up
first, then
do it.

I wish ibogaine, 18-mc and nor-ibogaine were available for
addicts the world
over and for people wanting a spiritual experience to go Gabon.

A question for you: do you think there is a Darwinian reason for
drug use?
Why do some humans like to get fucked up?

So, what’s your story? How did you become the semiotic drug
expert who hates
drug experts?

Thanks for the work you have done with drug use.

Take care,
Steve. Ibo clan member #341268.

Sara: Go for fucks sake.

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: March 19, 2005 at 8:31:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: 18 March 2005 20:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Well, Nick I had last week one of Peter Cohen’s friend
For a treatment, I don’t think that you got the whole picture…

Hi Sara,

Well, OK, that may well be the case, but I still wanna take him to task a
little. I mean read what he wrote back to me, which I replied to as
well……

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 18 March 2005 19:33
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: informe
Subject: dissing a Substance!!

Dear Nick227, your points are correct. I offer no easy solution , nor
do I have that ambition.
The thing I do is comment on the self made bogus theory the ibo
people offer about ibogaine, and show that their jargon is exactly
the mirror image jargon of the drug warriors  who have taken up the
fight against ‘chemical dependency’ or ;’aDDICTION’,  modern
ghost-evils.
I do not see how the ibo clan could bring the ending of the drug war
irrationality one step closer, absorbed as they are in their whining
about their miseries, and in the idolation of their illicit  saviour.
I engaged in this discussion because I consider those victimised
in/of the drug war my friends-in principle-, and so I say my truth to
them.

Hi Peter,

As I understood it, you ARE offering a solution – that of a radical revision
of the mindset which creates the social categories “addict” and
“non-addict.” Is this the case? If so, then it seems to me that you
obviously do recognize some form of “problem” with the existing conceptual
model that society has for comprehending drug use. You are taking a stand –
you speak publically, you write, you take action. I don’t buy it that you
are purely a theorist, to be truly that you have to not communicate your
theories, certainly not in any meaningful fashion.

Thus, I submit, you are in essence no different from the ibogaine proponent
in that you are attempting to alter what you percieve to be some form of
“wrong” in our society.

However, your position would seem to be that it’s My Way or the Highway,
that you are right and ibogaine is wrong, a position you justify on several
relatively valid grounds, within your own concept. And apparently use this
to batter the ibogaine proponents viz, “absorbed as they are in their
whining about their miseries, and in the idolation of their illicit
saviour.”

What I am saying is that, given that you are ACTIVE in trying alter society,
it has to be valid to consider the practical realities behind the various
strategies proposed – how they might be implemented, what would be useful
first steps, etc. And in this, I’d say that ibogaine is currently some way
ahead of your own initiatives. I could be wrong. For sure, ibogaine does not
fit in within your concept, but do you really have to indulge in such
in-fighting with those who seek a similar goal?

Of course in the back ground plays also that I think choosing for
intense use of any drug is the right of humans, and that the ibo clan
people should fight for that right. At least part of their time. As I
said earlier, I see how difficult that is.But it is not impossible.
The ibo church however makes of the ibo people an irrelevant lot for
drug policy reform, something I’d like to see turned around.

I am not impressed by sorrow in the subjective sense. I think its
bad, very bad, so go do something about it.
In the UK e.g. I know people who fight for the right to use heroin,
and to bring heroin from the local pharmacy closer, and their right
to use it as they wish. Do not think these people have easy lives or
suffer no constraints, but hey, that is the cost of choosing that
life style now, in this culture.I see them speak out at conferences ,
make smart contributions to the debates, and outwit the nitwits.
Fight for your rights! and further do whatever you should/want do,
even use ibo as gods own flesh. This would probably inspire/encourage
more ‘lost souls’ than venerating a substance you think I diss.
pc

Well, for sure there are a few people fighting for the right to use heroin
legally. And I support that myself. Yes, it’s a good idea, but, as I pointed
out previously, when you’re using daily a drug which backs up the body’s own
repression system (as heroin does) then it’s kind of hard to make a
meaningful political impact. To put energy out like this, to be effective,
you need to be in your power. Heroin can give you clarity if you’re
overwhelmed with feelings, but it’s really hard to get your hands on your
power with this drug. It doesn’t lend itself to inspiring civil upheaval and
political activism. In fact, more subversive governments have in the past
well recognized that giving annoying activists high access to heroin is
definitely one way of shutting them up, as seen with the traveller scene in
80’s UK.

So, I’d say, on this count too you’re pretty off base. Again just my opinion
and I could be wrong. But I’d say ibogaine offers a lot more potential for a
REAL and ACTUAL shift in the whole drugwar concept than the ideas you
propose.

In addition, you don’t have to categorize all substances the same way, you
can also look at awareness. Heroin represses awareness, it blockades
feeling. Ibogaine raises awareness, it attempts to bring to light that which
one is previously unaware of. You can say that, on the face of it, ibogaine
is just another drug and that it thus offers no real solution to the issue
of how drug use is perceived socially, but understand that it is not so easy
to predict just what happens when a substance of ibogaine’s
awareness-raising potential comes into the wider market. You can’t really
know what level of change this could catalyse. If you did then it would
already have happened.

Nick

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] and also…
Date: March 19, 2005 at 2:14:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

watch the benzos bro.  they’ve got a stinger, ron
—– Original Message —–
From: jeffgd1@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:38 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] and also…

Oops premayure send…. I also wnated to send this link to some more interesting music that rachel found
http://www.baka.co.uk/
anyone know anything about this group ? They sound great and  they will be here in NYc soon…Ibonaunt field trip ?
I am back at work finally! 2weeks now.. My body got soft here in the apt recoupping from my ibo experience work is hard but strebgthening…
Still a bit shaky some days about where I am exactly…recovery…i am not sure..opiate free yes…but i now drink beer-one or two almost every day-which is a new phenom for this man…harm reduction absolutley but?? …. a benzo every now and then as well..
I am still seeking something it seems.
Hope ypu all check out the smithsonian site it is truly a treasure trove of great stuff and this Baka is pretty groovy thansk Rachy! Love ya!
Freaking Free
freaking Out
Freaking Jeff

From: jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] and also…
Date: March 19, 2005 at 1:38:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Oops premayure send…. I also wnated to send this link to some more interesting music that rachel found
http://www.baka.co.uk/
anyone know anything about this group ? They sound great and  they will be here in NYc soon…Ibonaunt field trip ?
I am back at work finally! 2weeks now.. My body got soft here in the apt recoupping from my ibo experience work is hard but strebgthening…
Still a bit shaky some days about where I am exactly…recovery…i am not sure..opiate free yes…but i now drink beer-one or two almost every day-which is a new phenom for this man…harm reduction absolutley but?? …. a benzo every now and then as well..
I am still seeking something it seems.
Hope ypu all check out the smithsonian site it is truly a treasure trove of great stuff and this Baka is pretty groovy thansk Rachy! Love ya!
Freaking Free
freaking Out
Freaking Jeff

From: jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Smithsonian Global Sound
Date: March 19, 2005 at 1:26:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello all
i just has this passed on to me and thought you all may find it interesting i did a search for Gabon and came up with some great Fang Bwiti stuff.

Smithsonian Center for Folklife and  Cultural Heritage
announces ‘Smithsonian Global Sound ‘

The  Smithsonian Center for Folklife and Cultural
Heritage is
proud to announce  the launch of our highly anticipated
web
site, Smithsonian Global  Sound
(http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org).

Smithsonian Global  Sound offers digital downloads of
music
and sound from around the world at  a reasonable price.
The
site has a wealth of educational content and  downloads
are
accompanied by extensive liner notes.  Our goal is  to
encourage local musicians and traditions around the
planet  through
international recognition, the payment of royalties,
and support  for
regional archives.

The first track we sold was “Tarab” by Famau,  Harambee
Music
Club from the album Music of the Waswahili of  Lamu,
Kenya,
Vol. 3: Secular Music–an eight and a half minute
track  of
drum, harmonium, and bongo. Some lucky person is
walking
around  right now jamming to that track on their iPod
while reading
the liner  notes and benefitting the musicians of Lamu.
This is what Smithsonian Global  Sound is all about!
We hope you share our excitement and will support  the
site.

Please forward this announcement to anyone and
everyone  you
know, especially to those who would be interested  in
our
subscriptions for educational  institutions.
http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org

From: “synn stern” <synn1@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 18, 2005 at 10:41:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

both heroin & methadone are potentially addicting opiates.the real difference is that heroin lasts about 8hours (and is a black market product) and methadone lasts far, far longer –around 24hours. and as a pharmaceutical product, you know what/how much you are getting; making it that much easier to reduce doses.

your friend should reduce slowly enough that the W.D. is not very uncomfortable, and realize that methadone lasts far longer than heroin (up to 3 days for some folks’ livers) AND often takes a long time to initially be felt. could be 3hours before the first dose “comes on.”

everyone’s detox is different, but adjunct medications, like stuff for the runs & for muscle cramps & the sniffles are recommended. match the medication (assuming it is something they can take, of course) to the presenting symptom: motrin for pain, benedryl for sniffles, etc. and guard against dehydration (which’ll make everything worse, especiallly muscle cramps). lots of water should be drunk, hot baths feel good, and light easy-to-digest stuff should be eaten. bread, toast, rice, etc. and bananas are a wonder-food for detoxing. they’re easy to digest, help tighten up the loose bowel, and the potassium helps fight off muscle cramps.

good luck.

From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:05:40 -0500

Hi Hannah,
I basically stand by the info that Donna posted when this was previously brought up.  I really really think that 3 days is pretty safe and play it by ear if you need any or very little on the fourth.  Although I was always hesitant to go much past 3 days.  It worked fine for me.  I do however think the doses that Jasen posted were also a lot higher than I would have used however it does have to do with what your habit is at the time as well as your tolerance. Day 4 or 5 epsom soaks or saunas or showers help a lot if there are still residuals.  I personally never had any drama after the initial 3 days.   I will say I did this hundreds of times! Where the expression ends or the actual count starts I have no idea, I do know that there are people who have been able to stay clean once they get over the physical addiction.  I was just not one of them and never had any success until I did the Ibogaine.  I wish you and your friend all the best and hope you are one of the fortunates that can overcome what I could not.
I also believe the whole methedone in your bones thing is not going to happen in a few days and I personally think it’s more a complication of malnutrition along with the drug use. IMO.
Much Love,
Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: Hannah Clay
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 4:23 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?

Hi all,

My friend is intending to detox from Heroin using Methadone short-term.  We’ve done this before but I want to know for safety’s sake how long it takes to become addicted to Methadone?  How many days/weeks can you use it before you become addicted?  I realise you can detox from H using Meth just for 5 days but would still like to know just in case.

Thanks in advance,
Hannah

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: March 18, 2005 at 3:39:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well, Nick I had last week one of Peter Cohen’s friend
For a treatment, I don’t think that you got the whole picture…

And please Nick if you feel for a change in policies, read & sign

http://action.encod.org/ic3/faces/public/ic3/home/petition?portal:componentI

Sara

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 maart 2005 19:47
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
CC: cohen.cedro@uva.nl
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 22 February 2005 22:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com; Preston Peet
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Preston, your summarizing of my views is quite
right.Dana is not able or willing to read my
stuff,nor understand it, let alone summarizing it.
About the physical side of intense and frequent
drug use, of course there is a biological
component.
But I do not see its relevance.
Thomas Szasz once wrote that the physical aspects
of an erection do not explain falling in love
with a particular woman, or men visiting
prostitutes. There is a lot of biology involved
in sexuality, but what types of sex are
criminalised , what types of bonding society
accepts or not, are totally different matters.
Of course people develop tolerance, or a longing
to repeat the most wanted effects of drugs(
untill they no longer count) but what does this
have to do with societies activity of prohibiting
some drug use behaviours?
I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.
pc

Dear Peter,

I find myself a little dismayed that you appear to not have moved so much
your position on ibogaine. Your ARGUMENTS are all well REASONED, your
THINKING clear and it all looks good. But to me it seems that you still
cannot FEEL the reality of the misery of many addicts’ lives. You fit them
into your vision of how the world SHOULD BE, but offer little practical
commentary on how your brave and beautiful vision could actually be
manifested, what is the first step that actually needs to be taken, and how
to do it.

It’s all happening in your mind, man. And this would all be absolutely fine
with me except that you are now using this mental vision of paradise to
actively dis a substance that offers a REAL and PRACTICAL solution to many
people’s miseries. Someone is going to take you by the hand and lead you
through the streets of sorrow and you are going to say that the misery is
only happening because of the prejudicial attitudes of the government and
public, but this is not going to help one fucking person, unless you can
practically manifest a way of changing their attitudes. Can you?

If you would accept that your vision is idealistic, perhaps you could then
take a more lenient stance on ibogaine, something which offers a practical
course of action. It does little to disturb the prejudical attitudes of the
public, granted; it does little to socially re-label the “addict” a natural
human, I agree; but it does practically offer hope to many who have given
up. Is it possible you could at least take a footstep down from your castle
and consider doing this?

Nick

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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List
Date: March 18, 2005 at 1:47:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <cohen.cedro@uva.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—–Original Message—–
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@uva.nl]
Sent: 22 February 2005 22:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com; Preston Peet
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Second omnibus reply to P. Cohen & the List

Preston, your summarizing of my views is quite
right.Dana is not able or willing to read my
stuff,nor understand it, let alone summarizing it.
About the physical side of intense and frequent
drug use, of course there is a biological
component.
But I do not see its relevance.
Thomas Szasz once wrote that the physical aspects
of an erection do not explain falling in love
with a particular woman, or men visiting
prostitutes. There is a lot of biology involved
in sexuality, but what types of sex are
criminalised , what types of bonding society
accepts or not, are totally different matters.
Of course people develop tolerance, or a longing
to repeat the most wanted effects of drugs(
untill they no longer count) but what does this
have to do with societies activity of prohibiting
some drug use behaviours?
I never speak about addiction, or possession, or
bewitching, I consider them all terms from a
primitive pre scientific past, that unfortunately
still lingers on in the perception of many, the
ibo clan included.
pc

Dear Peter,

I find myself a little dismayed that you appear to not have moved so much
your position on ibogaine. Your ARGUMENTS are all well REASONED, your
THINKING clear and it all looks good. But to me it seems that you still
cannot FEEL the reality of the misery of many addicts’ lives. You fit them
into your vision of how the world SHOULD BE, but offer little practical
commentary on how your brave and beautiful vision could actually be
manifested, what is the first step that actually needs to be taken, and how
to do it.

It’s all happening in your mind, man. And this would all be absolutely fine
with me except that you are now using this mental vision of paradise to
actively dis a substance that offers a REAL and PRACTICAL solution to many
people’s miseries. Someone is going to take you by the hand and lead you
through the streets of sorrow and you are going to say that the misery is
only happening because of the prejudicial attitudes of the government and
public, but this is not going to help one fucking person, unless you can
practically manifest a way of changing their attitudes. Can you?

If you would accept that your vision is idealistic, perhaps you could then
take a more lenient stance on ibogaine, something which offers a practical
course of action. It does little to disturb the prejudical attitudes of the
public, granted; it does little to socially re-label the “addict” a natural
human, I agree; but it does practically offer hope to many who have given
up. Is it possible you could at least take a footstep down from your castle
and consider doing this?

Nick

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..
Date: March 18, 2005 at 10:46:25 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL.
Well, let’s hope there’s no barfing being done by me on this trip. That would suck, even as lucrative as it may be to have Preston Peet’s barf for sale (ooowww, that’s really gross btw).
Though it’s not the most unusual body waste suggestion I’ve heard in the past 6 months or so- the last, even more unusual one was the one whereby I was informed that were I to pee and save it in the fridge right away after doing ibogaine, I could probably get re-iboed again. I passed on that idea too.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..

Preston, just remeber if you use the barf bag to save it, we could sell it on E bay. Preston Peet’s barf bag would have to be worth something.   Randy
—–Original Message—–
From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:43:41 -0800
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..

Hi Preston,

about your travels…a few things that have helped me: pack your stuff at a leisurely pace way ahead of time. this way, you know that you have everything you need.

These things might seem kinda girlie, but man they work: wear slip-on shoes–easy for airport security and for slipping off during the flight. bring a pair of soft warm cashmere socks to wear while on the plane. get one of those half-donut neck pillows [best with buckwheat on the inside, the inflatable ones work too, but they are a bit less comfortable tho easier to transport] and douse it with organic lavender oil. bring a soft eye pillow thingie [what are those called? sleep masks?]–these are enormously helpful, because they cut out all that weird light. douse that with lavender, too. if you can, get some noise canceling headphones [Bose has some for a pretty penny–make the product! ion company buy them for you!] for all the fatiguing engine noise. Drink liter after liter after liter of water. Never stop drinking. get some evian spray for your face and spritz yourself every so often. finally, make sure you moisturize your hands and face and lips every so often–this will make you more comfortable and you will be pretty and soft when you arrive. finally, attending to all of this hilariously fussy self-comfort stuff will completely distract you from everything else going on!!
have a great time.
kiersten

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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] invitation,
Date: March 18, 2005 at 3:50:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello,

If really want to experience an Aya. Ceremony, it is very much possible to organize it yourself,
The only thing is are you willing to take responsibilities? , I’m sure that if you are on opiates or other medications you better
Be open about it with the ceremony master  and communicate with him about that . you would not want to make
A ceremony with psyco’s , right?
Don’t give up and you will find a group of people who are already doing it and may except you to take part of their ceremony.

Sara
Van: kiersten johnson [mailto:kiers10@mac.com] 
Verzonden: donderdag 17 maart 2005 20:26
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] invitation,

Hello lovelies,

Can anyone point me to a good ayahuasca practitioner in the San Francisco area? I’ve been wanting to do this journey for a long long time, and don’t have the bread at the moment to make it to Brazil…

when I get rich I will start a sponsorship program for ibo/aya journies…
xo
kiersten
On Mar 15, 2005, at 7:21 AM, Sara Glatt wrote:
At my home, Netherlands,

 

You can count on 80- 100 euros , the session is 5 hours, you will need to bering your sleeping bag,

 

 

Sara

 


Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] 
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 maart 2005 14:50
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] invitation,

 

Hi Sara

 

Hope you are well I would like to experience the ayahusca ceremony where will it be held???? 

love donnaxxxxxxx
If you are squeamish: don’t prod the beach rubble.

–Sappho

From: “Vigilius Haufniensis” <thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] withdrawals
Date: March 18, 2005 at 2:53:36 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In order to provide real information we need real information.  What was
your
friend using dose/drug before methadone and what has been his dose regimen
of
methadone for the last month?  Is ibogaine an option for your friend?
Howard

VMANN: thanks dude.
i guess he got some methdone now.  ill ask for more specifics, though.
i dont think he would do ibogaine.
vigilius haufniensis

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 18, 2005 at 12:05:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Hannah,
I basically stand by the info that Donna posted when this was previously brought up.  I really really think that 3 days is pretty safe and play it by ear if you need any or very little on the fourth.  Although I was always hesitant to go much past 3 days.  It worked fine for me.  I do however think the doses that Jasen posted were also a lot higher than I would have used however it does have to do with what your habit is at the time as well as your tolerance. Day 4 or 5 epsom soaks or saunas or showers help a lot if there are still residuals.  I personally never had any drama after the initial 3 days.   I will say I did this hundreds of times! Where the expression ends or the actual count starts I have no idea, I do know that there are people who have been able to stay clean once they get over the physical addiction.  I was just not one of them and never had any success until I did the Ibogaine.  I wish you and your friend all the best and hope you are one of the fortunates that can overcome what I could not.
I also believe the whole methedone in your bones thing is not going to happen in a few days and I personally think it’s more a complication of malnutrition along with the drug use. IMO.
Much Love,
Martee

—– Original Message —–
From: Hannah Clay
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 4:23 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?

Hi all,

My friend is intending to detox from Heroin using Methadone short-term.  We’ve done this before but I want to know for safety’s sake how long it takes to become addicted to Methadone?  How many days/weeks can you use it before you become addicted?  I realise you can detox from H using Meth just for 5 days but would still like to know just in case.

Thanks in advance,
Hannah

From: biscuitboy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..
Date: March 17, 2005 at 9:36:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, just remeber if you use the barf bag to save it, we could sell it on E bay. Preston Peet’s barf bag would have to be worth something.   Randy
—–Original Message—–
From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:43:41 -0800
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..

Hi Preston,

about your travels…a few things that have helped me: pack your stuff at a leisurely pace way ahead of time. this way, you know that you have everything you need.

These things might seem kinda girlie, but man they work: wear slip-on shoes–easy for airport security and for slipping off during the flight. bring a pair of soft warm cashmere socks to wear while on the plane. get one of those half-donut neck pillows [best with buckwheat on the inside, the inflatable ones work too, but they are a bit less comfortable tho easier to transport] and douse it with organic lavender oil. bring a soft eye pillow thingie [what are those called? sleep masks?]–these are enormously helpful, because they cut out all that weird light. douse that with lavender, too. if you can, get some noise canceling headphones [Bose has some for a pretty penny–make the production company buy them for you!] for all the fatiguing engine noise. Drink liter after liter after liter of water. Never stop drinking. get some evian spray for your face and spritz yourself every so often. finally, make sure you moisturize your hands and face and lips every so often–this will make you more comfortable and you will be pretty and soft when you arrive. finally, attending to all of this hilariously fussy self-comfort stuff will completely distract you from everything else going on!!
have a great time.
kiersten

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] invitation,
Date: March 17, 2005 at 7:44:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yah and someone in Toronto for that matter if anyone knows

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] invitation, Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:26:02 -0800 Hello lovelies, Can anyone point me to a good ayahuasca practitioner in the San Francisco area? I’ve been wanting to do this journey for a long long time, and don’t have the bread at the moment to make it to Brazil… when I get rich I will start a sponsorship program for ibo/aya journies… xo kiersten On Mar 15, 2005, at 7:21 AM, Sara Glatt wrote: >At my home, Netherlands, > >  > >You can count on 80- 100 euros , the session is 5 hours, you will >need to bering your sleeping bag, > >  > >  > >Sara > >  > > >Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com] >Verzonden: dinsdag 15 maart 2005 14:50 >Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] invitation, > >  > >Hi Sara > >  > >Hope you are well I would like to experience the ayahusca ceremony >where will it be held???? > >love donnaxxxxxxx > If you are squeamish: don’t prod the beach rubble. –Sappho

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] withdrawals
Date: March 17, 2005 at 6:02:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In order to provide real information we need real information.  What was your
friend using dose/drug before methadone and what has been his dose regimen of
methadone for the last month?  Is ibogaine an option for your friend?

Howard

In a message dated 3/17/05 1:23:07 PM, thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net writes:

a friend of mine has a bad back.
right now he is going through withdrawals from painkillers.  they put him
on methodone, but he doesnt have enough to make it to the end of the month.
they wont give him more.  any tips on coping?
ill pass it along.

thanks,

vigilius haufniensis

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot: nin – hand that feeds video
Date: March 17, 2005 at 4:34:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://boss.streamos.com/download/interscope/nin/with_teeth/video/nin_the_hand_that_feeds_hi.mov

looks like TR and Jose Canseco have been hanging out at the same bar
together.

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] My ibogaine experience
Date: March 17, 2005 at 3:06:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Warmest Regards

Matt

Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..
Date: March 17, 2005 at 2:43:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Preston,

about your travels…a few things that have helped me: pack your stuff at a leisurely pace way ahead of time. this way, you know that you have everything you need.

These things might  seem kinda girlie, but man they work: wear slip-on shoes–easy for airport security and for slipping off during the flight. bring a pair of soft warm cashmere socks to wear while on the plane. get one of those half-donut neck pillows [best with buckwheat on the inside, the inflatable ones work too, but they are a bit less comfortable tho easier to transport] and douse it with organic lavender oil. bring a soft eye pillow thingie [what are those called? sleep masks?]–these are enormously helpful, because they cut out all that weird light. douse that with lavender, too. if you can, get some noise canceling headphones [Bose has some for a pretty penny–make the production company buy them for you!] for all the fatiguing engine noise. Drink liter after liter after liter of water. Never stop drinking. get some evian spray for your face and spritz yourself every so often. finally, make sure you moisturize your hands and face and lips every so often–this will make you more comfortable and you will be pretty and soft when you arrive. finally, attending to all of this hilariously fussy self-comfort stuff will completely distract you from everything else going on!!
have a great time.
kiersten

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] invitation,
Date: March 17, 2005 at 2:26:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello lovelies,

Can anyone point me to a good ayahuasca practitioner in the San Francisco area? I’ve been wanting to do this journey for a long long time, and don’t have the bread at the moment to make it to Brazil…

when I get rich I will start a sponsorship program for ibo/aya journies…
xo
kiersten
On Mar 15, 2005, at 7:21 AM, Sara Glatt wrote:

At my home, Netherlands,

 

You can count on 80- 100 euros , the session is 5 hours, you will need to bering your sleeping bag,

 

 

Sara

 

Van: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 maart 2005 14:50
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] invitation,

 

Hi Sara

 

Hope you are well I would like to experience the ayahusca ceremony where will it be held????

love donnaxxxxxxx

If you are squeamish: don’t prod the beach rubble.

–Sappho

From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 17, 2005 at 2:15:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Santa Claus is a Saami [Lapplander] shaman who has a message of abundance and transcendence for us–but Coca Cola stole his identity in the 1920s……there is power and truth even in the sold out stories they tell us. penetrate to the core, and be free.

On Mar 17, 2005, at 10:17 AM, Chris Hunter wrote:

howdy M

I liketo follow that idea of evolution, maybe Ibogaine is another step but instead of the big bang style awakening its more like a fine tuning of an already well developed spirit and soul. The thing that gets in the way is as you say negativity.

I think that something on this planet is growing from our negativity – this is maybe why the media and governments keep bleding our hearts and minds with such imagery of darckness and misery.

I don’t understand how we got to this point is our development to do nothing but soak ourselves in greed and power. I know sod all about this planet and little more about myslef, because I’ve been playing the game thats sold to us as Santa Claus is sold to us from childhood.

Its time to start making a new game I think and all it takes are ‘thoughts’ because nothing is what it is without a firstly being one thought shared and felt be the people of this planet.

Good news is all around us but we fail to see it every day becasue we are blinkered by the powers of government the ultimate manipulators.

Look to the earth and feel the only real power – nature, love and light

Good thoughts
Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:16:49 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!  http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Date: March 17, 2005 6:16:49 AM PST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Chris

I wouldnt be suprised if sacred substances did spark the evolution on this planet.  Take Eboga for example…lets say millions of years ago a chimp stumbled on eboga by accident and ingested it……No matter wha his brain capacity he would get in tuned with the whole universe…maybe he wouldnt undesrtand anything aat first but with time his counciousnes would expand and begin to evolve……i agree with you about the whole issue of legal/illegal drugs–i mean why the fuck is alchohol leagal and causes more deaths than heroin/coke etc combined and is extremly addictive–that just makes no sense –i think its a big political game–a big reason there is so much drugs is because alot of what is confiscated goes right back on the street,etc….yes brother unity is everything!!!!!!!!without it we are lost…..if we as a society dont realize we are all one we will perish in dispondency….without love there is hate and with hate the negative nergy not only will have imense impact on this planet but in all this beautifull universe……ONe love

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:25:32 +0000 Hi Mat Its a shame when folk milk the system and that happens a lot in the UK to. Methadone is another addiction but on the scale of things its safer than H and much easier to control. I guess it depends on what the individual wants to do, many people seem to need some sort of drug in their systems for a million reasons. What about legalisation?? Drugs have been with us since our perception of time began, in fact some would argue that certain drugs actually sparked the evolution of human consciouness. I don’t see how it helps to have drugs classified as legal and illegal – it seems to give many people the green light to abuse themselves with some false perception that maybe alcohol is safe and Heroin is dangerous?? this sort of system also allows many others to kill themselves with dirty drugs, equipmment, social stigma and criminal justice systems becasue they chose to use somethng like Heroin. Is it not about time that we as a race acknowledgee that we do take drugs and always will take drugs and start to look at how we can enhance our perception, tune our spirits and help those who take it too far with as much support as possible. Obvioulsy we would need to buy into a new way of thinking and tune out of the negative false perception that governments use to bleed us all dry. Unity is all there really is – we’ve just been detuned from it. Just a few thoughts Much Love Chris >From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you >get a habit? >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:35:49 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with  MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*  /]=———————————————————————=[\  [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=———————————————————————=[/
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Kiersten Leigh Johnson, M.A.

Department of Rhetoric
Program in Film Studies
7408 Dwinelle Hall #2670
University of California
Berkeley, CA 94720-2670

Mobile phone: 510.508.9597
TeleFAX: 510.642.8881

From: “Vigilius Haufniensis” <thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] withdrawals
Date: March 17, 2005 at 3:21:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <elite_sociopath@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

a friend of mine has a bad back.
right now he is going through withdrawals from painkillers.  they put him on
methodone, but he doesnt have enough to make it to the end of the month.
they wont give him more.  any tips on coping?
ill pass it along.
thanks,
vigilius haufniensis

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 17, 2005 at 1:17:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

howdy M

I liketo follow that idea of evolution, maybe Ibogaine is another step but instead of the big bang style awakening its more like a fine tuning of an already well developed spirit and soul. The thing that gets in the way is as you say negativity.

I think that something on this planet is growing from our negativity – this is maybe why the media and governments keep bleding our hearts and minds with such imagery of darckness and misery.

I don’t understand how we got to this point is our development to do nothing but soak ourselves in greed and power. I know sod all about this planet and little more about myslef, because I’ve been playing the game thats sold to us as Santa Claus is sold to us from childhood.

Its time to start making a new game I think and all it takes are ‘thoughts’ because nothing is what it is without a firstly being one thought shared and felt be the people of this planet.

Good news is all around us but we fail to see it every day becasue we are blinkered by the powers of government the ultimate manipulators.

Look to the earth and feel the only real power – nature, love and light

Good thoughts
Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:16:49 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!  http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 17, 2005 at 9:16:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Chris
I wouldnt be suprised if sacred substances did spark the evolution on this planet.  Take Eboga for example…lets say millions of years ago a chimp stumbled on eboga by accident and ingested it……No matter wha his brain capacity he would get in tuned with the whole universe…maybe he wouldnt undesrtand anything aat first but with time his counciousnes would expand and begin to evolve……i agree with you about the whole issue of legal/illegal drugs–i mean why the fuck is alchohol leagal and causes more deaths than heroin/coke etc combined and is extremly addictive–that just makes no sense –i think its a big political game–a big reason there is so much drugs is because alot of what is confiscated goes right back on the street,etc….yes brother unity is everything!!!!!!!!without it we are lost…..if we as a society dont realize we are all one we will perish in dispondency….without love there is hate and with hate the negative nergy not only will have imense impact on this planet but in all this beautifull universe……ONe love

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:25:32 +0000 Hi Mat Its a shame when folk milk the system and that happens a lot in the UK to. Methadone is another addiction but on the scale of things its safer than H and much easier to control. I guess it depends on what the individual wants to do, many people seem to need some sort of drug in their systems for a million reasons. What about legalisation?? Drugs have been with us since our perception of time began, in fact some would argue that certain drugs actually sparked the evolution of human consciouness. I don’t see how it helps to have drugs classified as legal and illegal – it seems to give many people the green light to abuse themselves with some false perception that maybe alcohol is safe and Heroin is dangerous?? this sort of system also allows many others to kill themselves with dirty drugs, equipmment, social stigma and criminal justice systems becasue they chose to use somethng like Heroin. Is it not about time that we as a race acknowledgee that we do take drugs and always will take drugs and start to look at how we can enhance our perception, tune our spirits and help those who take it too far with as much support as possible. Obvioulsy we would need to buy into a new way of thinking and tune out of the negative false perception that governments use to bleed us all dry. Unity is all there really is – we’ve just been detuned from it. Just a few thoughts Much Love Chris >From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you >get a habit? >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:35:49 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 17, 2005 at 9:16:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Chris
I wouldnt be suprised if sacred substances did spark the evolution on this planet.  Take Eboga for example…lets say millions of years ago a chimp stumbled on eboga by accident and ingested it……No matter wha his brain capacity he would get in tuned with the whole universe…maybe he wouldnt undesrtand anything aat first but with time his counciousnes would expand and begin to evolve……i agree with you about the whole issue of legal/illegal drugs–i mean why the fuck is alchohol leagal and causes more deaths than heroin/coke etc combined and is extremly addictive–that just makes no sense –i think its a big political game–a big reason there is so much drugs is because alot of what is confiscated goes right back on the street,etc….yes brother unity is everything!!!!!!!!without it we are lost…..if we as a society dont realize we are all one we will perish in dispondency….without love there is hate and with hate the negative nergy not only will have imense impact on this planet but in all this beautifull universe……ONe love

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:25:32 +0000 Hi Mat Its a shame when folk milk the system and that happens a lot in the UK to. Methadone is another addiction but on the scale of things its safer than H and much easier to control. I guess it depends on what the individual wants to do, many people seem to need some sort of drug in their systems for a million reasons. What about legalisation?? Drugs have been with us since our perception of time began, in fact some would argue that certain drugs actually sparked the evolution of human consciouness. I don’t see how it helps to have drugs classified as legal and illegal – it seems to give many people the green light to abuse themselves with some false perception that maybe alcohol is safe and Heroin is dangerous?? this sort of system also allows many others to kill themselves with dirty drugs, equipmment, social stigma and criminal justice systems becasue they chose to use somethng like Heroin. Is it not about time that we as a race acknowledgee that we do take drugs and always will take drugs and start to look at how we can enhance our perception, tune our spirits and help those who take it too far with as much support as possible. Obvioulsy we would need to buy into a new way of thinking and tune out of the negative false perception that governments use to bleed us all dry. Unity is all there really is – we’ve just been detuned from it. Just a few thoughts Much Love Chris >From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you >get a habit? >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:35:49 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ << message3.txt >> /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 17, 2005 at 8:25:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mat

Its a shame when folk milk the system and that happens a lot in the UK to. Methadone is another addiction but on the scale of things its safer than H and much easier to control. I guess it depends on what the individual wants to do, many people seem to need some sort of drug in their systems for a million reasons.

What about legalisation?? Drugs have been with us since our perception of time began, in fact some would argue that certain drugs actually sparked the evolution of human consciouness.

I don’t see how it helps to have drugs classified as legal and illegal – it seems to give many people the green light to abuse themselves with some false perception that maybe alcohol is safe and Heroin is dangerous?? this sort of system also allows many others to kill themselves with dirty drugs, equipmment, social stigma and criminal justice systems becasue they chose to use somethng like Heroin.

Is it not about time that we as a race acknowledgee that we do take drugs and always will take drugs and start to look at how we can enhance our perception, tune our spirits and help those who take it too far with as much support as possible.

Obvioulsy we would need to buy into a new way of thinking and tune out of the negative false perception that governments use to bleed us all dry. Unity is all there really is – we’ve just been detuned from it.

Just a few thoughts

Much Love

Chris

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:35:49 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!  http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 16, 2005 at 7:35:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Well lets say there is no evidence showing that methadone sinks into your bones and maybe they are just horror stories that others recreate and exagerate as well but what about the fact that you drink methadone everysingle day and you could get by somehow wihtout a dose the next day.  What does that tell you? trying to skp a day with H would me imposible.  Here in Canada to get on the meth program is really simple.  You go to a meth doctor…he check the urine for opiates….if positive starts you at about 15-25mg depending on habit and increases by 15mg every 3 days until you are satisfied with the dose….you can go up to basicaly whatever u feel like …..which is unacaptable because i know people who had only a percocet habit going on meth just for kicks and now they are stuck at 200mg….

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:51:12 +0100 Hi Mat, Maybe there is no evidence but if people considering that Metha, does Gets into the bone and feels that way, then you may ask yourself who Conducted that research? And how it looks like. I can hardly believe that When you feel that it is in the bone someone else who never felt that Can say it is all in your mind Methadone is not the nightmare but you created your own nightmare, maybe I don’t understand much of it I never had A methadone detox. So I can’t say much about how it feels to come off. S. —–Oorspronkelijk bericht—– Van: Chris Hunter [mailto:abductmeplease@hotmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 16 maart 2005 19:35 Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Hi Mat There is no evidence that Methadone does anything at all to your bones. Each person’s expereince is different and many people listen to horror stories and then create there own nightmare for themselves. Its a fact that opiates are hard to get off once addicted to them, its that simple and that hard. Intention and a spot of PMA should help.positive mental attitude that is Accessing a methadone program through a local drugs agency can be helpful – you get a regular clean supply negotiated between you your GP and a caseworker. Once in place you can detox slowly eithier in the community or in a specilist unit. Not sure what the situation is like in the US though – can you explain your system to me please? >From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a >habit? >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:25:58 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..
Date: March 17, 2005 at 12:04:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks for the sage advice Jon, I have to admit I’d already thought of
the
benzo routine though- funny how that works, druggy types thinking alike and
all.
;-))

ahahah… yeah.. to steal a quote from homer, drugs …” the cause of, and
solution to, all of life’s problems” =)

Who else here on the ibo list is in LA? Anyone? Where are you Jon?
South,
right? (Sorry, I simply cannot for the life of me remember- but I should
point out btw, I thought it was awfully fun hanging out with you at
Dana’s.)

dana’s was a blast.

i’m sorta in the south, but not really… baltimore… they say here we
have the relaxed charm of the north, and the culture and intellect of the
south… ehe

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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: from ron, off list
Date: March 16, 2005 at 11:05:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

still the same?
—– Original Message —–
From: IBEGINAGAIN@aol.com
To: rwd3@cox.net
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: from ron, off list

Hi,
Call me in the afternoon sometime at 352-4278724.
Eric

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone
Date: March 16, 2005 at 9:16:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey man just chill out and try to enjoy the whole experience…try to have fun…anxiety is a bitch as im sure you know so why even bother with it…….if we keep puting negative thoughts in our head we’ll get negative results, negative enrgy will oeverwhelm us and getting back to balance can be quite diffuclt ……take care …wish you best of luck in everything….

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:48:28 -0500 Thank you Donna. One might think simple physical traveling wouldn’t bother me so much, considering all the astral/mental traveling I’ve done, which has shown me in so many ways the little teeny place I hold in the universe as a whole and that I can rest easy about my brief time and end when it comes- but for some reason, flying this time (for the very first time in my life) has me actually getting sweaty palms, and the idea of flying in as much pain as I’ve been experiencing, ever growing ever more irritating and slowing-me-down type pain, I’m simply not looking entirely forward to the actual travel part of the trip- although flying first class has GOT to be easier on my back and legs than flying coach, and I’m getting rides beginning from my apartment door to airport, from airport to hotel, hotel to tv lot, back to hotel, back to airport, from NYC airport to apartment door- I’ve NEVER been able to travel THAT chaufered, so that in and of itself makes it slight easier to feel somewhat enthusiastic about the whole travel thing part- the novelty alone will make a FUN story to write, beginning of course with my standing in that freezing hallway at 6AM yesterday. God I keep smackign myself in the head over that one. Boneheaded thing to do, but really funny if I don’t mind laughing at myself, which I usually don’t- except I coulda slept in a LOT later yesterday and not had such a nervous stomach for another week yet. Any ideas on how to make this week go faster folks? Peace and love, Preston “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness” Richard Davenport-Hines ptpeet@nyc.rr.com Editor http://www.drugwar.com Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs” Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005) Cont. High Times mag/.com Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com Columnist New York Waste Etc. —– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone Hi Preston I wish you all the luck in the world you will be fine, and try not to worry about the travelling. love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxx /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Hannah. I’d say 4 days. 🙂
Date: March 16, 2005 at 8:31:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Hannah,

How you doin’ girl. :). What I am about to say is my personal experience and opinion. It takes 4 days to START to stabilise on Methadone. To play it safe I would not
go beyond the 4 day mark. As you know methadone has a much longer life span than heroin. What I have done in the past is had one big dose, enough to feel warm
then the next day have a bit less as I would have some of the previous days methadone in my system. The third day a little less again then on the 4th and final day
I would have approx a third to a quater of the first dose. For example;150 on the first day, 120 the next day(as some of the first days 150mg dose would still be in my
system). then I would have 80mg on the third day,  then 25 to 40 on the last day.

I am talking MG here not ML’S. You probably know that 150mg is actually 30ml’s. Do not have 150ml’s as this is 750mg’s. 150 mg is what I had(30ml’s)

Of course these doses depend on the size of the heroin habit. If the person is only using $20 worth a day then 150mg COULD kill them. But I am sure, like the rest
of us your friend has tried methadone before and should have an idea on how much they can handle. Be careful.

Hannah this only works if your environment changes otherwise it is way to difficult to stick with it. On the 5th day(with no Methdone) you will probably not be to bad,
however on the sixth day when most to all the done is out of your system you will be feeling minor withdrawals, depending on the size of the heroin habit.

If your friend is still in the same scene/area, it will be way to difficult to succeed. You need an after plan. This is the most important thing IMHO.

Listening to Deep Purple. Mmmmm yeah. Play us a tune Randy.
love,
Jasen
—– Original Message —–
From: Hannah Clay
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?

Hi all,

My friend is intending to detox from Heroin using Methadone short-term.  We’ve done this before but I want to know for safety’s sake how long it takes to become addicted to Methadone?  How many days/weeks can you use it before you become addicted?  I realise you can detox from H using Meth just for 5 days but would still like to know just in case.

Thanks in advance,
Hannah

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 16, 2005 at 7:35:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Well lets say there is no evidence showing that methadone sinks into your bones and maybe they are just horror stories that others recreate and exagerate as well but what about the fact that you drink methadone everysingle day and you could get by somehow wihtout a dose the next day.  What does that tell you? trying to skp a day with H would me imposible.  Here in Canada to get on the meth program is really simple.  You go to a meth doctor…he check the urine for opiates….if positive starts you at about 15-25mg depending on habit and increases by 15mg every 3 days until you are satisfied with the dose….you can go up to basicaly whatever u feel like …..which is unacaptable because i know people who had only a percocet habit going on meth just for kicks and now they are stuck at 200mg….

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:51:12 +0100 Hi Mat, Maybe there is no evidence but if people considering that Metha, does Gets into the bone and feels that way, then you may ask yourself who Conducted that research? And how it looks like. I can hardly believe that When you feel that it is in the bone someone else who never felt that Can say it is all in your mind Methadone is not the nightmare but you created your own nightmare, maybe I don’t understand much of it I never had A methadone detox. So I can’t say much about how it feels to come off. S. —–Oorspronkelijk bericht—– Van: Chris Hunter [mailto:abductmeplease@hotmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 16 maart 2005 19:35 Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Hi Mat There is no evidence that Methadone does anything at all to your bones. Each person’s expereince is different and many people listen to horror stories and then create there own nightmare for themselves. Its a fact that opiates are hard to get off once addicted to them, its that simple and that hard. Intention and a spot of PMA should help.positive mental attitude that is Accessing a methadone program through a local drugs agency can be helpful – you get a regular clean supply negotiated between you your GP and a caseworker. Once in place you can detox slowly eithier in the community or in a specilist unit. Not sure what the situation is like in the US though – can you explain your system to me please? >From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a >habit? >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:25:58 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 16, 2005 at 5:51:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mat,

Maybe there is no evidence but if people considering that Metha, does
Gets into the bone and feels that way, then you may ask yourself who
Conducted that research? And how it looks like. I can hardly believe that
When you feel that it is in the bone someone else who never felt that
Can say it is all in your mind Methadone is not the nightmare but you
created your own nightmare, maybe I don’t understand much of it I never had
A methadone detox. So I can’t say much about how it feels to come off.

S.

—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Chris Hunter [mailto:abductmeplease@hotmail.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 16 maart 2005 19:35
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a
habit?

Hi Mat

There is no evidence that Methadone does anything at all to your bones. Each

person’s expereince is different and many people listen to horror stories
and then create there own nightmare for themselves. Its a fact that opiates
are hard to get off once addicted to them, its that simple and that hard.
Intention and a spot of PMA should help.positive mental attitude that is

Accessing a methadone program through a local drugs agency can be helpful –
you get a regular clean supply negotiated between you your GP and a
caseworker. Once in place you can detox slowly eithier in the community or
in a specilist unit. Not sure what the situation is like in the US though –
can you explain your system to me please?

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a
habit?
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:25:58 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

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From: “Chris Hunter” <abductmeplease@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 16, 2005 at 1:34:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mat

There is no evidence that Methadone does anything at all to your bones. Each person’s expereince is different and many people listen to horror stories and then create there own nightmare for themselves. Its a fact that opiates are hard to get off once addicted to them, its that simple and that hard. Intention and a spot of PMA should help.positive mental attitude that is

Accessing a methadone program through a local drugs agency can be helpful – you get a regular clean supply negotiated between you your GP and a caseworker. Once in place you can detox slowly eithier in the community or in a specilist unit. Not sure what the situation is like in the US though – can you explain your system to me please?

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:25:58 -0500

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 16, 2005 at 10:25:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
I think starting methadone to curtail an h addiction is not a good idea.  First because it is much more potent than most H on the street….second the half life of methadone is redicoulously long and sinks into your bones and stays there….from what i wnet through with meth withdarwl and from people i know and what i read i would never recomend meth to anyone especily for a few days…..u better off using junk because ull have less of a haslle coming off when u are ready

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: AbbotAngel@aol.com Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:10:31 EST Hi hannah i copied this mail from martee and jasen says this works to, i definately think its worth thinking about to get you past the really crap days, I hope you are ok, Im still using : ( love donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Donna, If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usually 3 days or a little more. By day 4 or 5 I was always fine as fine can be physically. I know there may be some personal variables here for you re: amt and quality of what you’re using, your personal metabolism, etc.etc. But I’ve wondered why if you are definitly not doing the ibogaine(too bad) is this protocol not a commonly known thing? Just a thought. Martee —– Original Message —– From: _AbbotAngel_ (mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com)

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone
Date: March 16, 2005 at 12:41:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Water is very good for dehydration;
better then alcohol because of the air pressure in the plane. You will feel
much more refreshed.<

Yeah, believe it or not, I am a firm believer in drinking water and fruit juices. I almost never ever drink- it’s literally maybe one drink per year if that. And that’s usually a beer at that.
That said, thanks for the well wishing and good vibes, from you Suzanne and from everyone else both on and off list with your well wishing- it does me good, really, to know there are people out there thinking strongly for me.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone

Hello Preston;
I really believe once you are on the plane you are going to be just fine!
Take “something” for your pain issues so you can relax, have a nice soft
pillow and lean your seat back as far as it will go. I use dark sun-glasses
and just lay back and close my eyes. Chew gum at take off and at landing
time.it helps the pressure in your ears! Water is very good for dehydration;
better then alcohol because of the air pressure in the plane. You will feel
much more refreshed.
Try and relax this week, think of a new story (you are so good at this!) to
write and try to get your mind off from the negative thoughts, think
positive!
I am sending good vibes your way! You are going to do just great, really!!
Big Smile, Susan

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone

Thank you Donna.
One might think simple physical traveling wouldn’t bother me so much,
considering all the astral/mental traveling I’ve done, which has shown me
in
so many ways the little teeny place I hold in the universe as a whole and
that I can rest easy about my brief time and end when it comes- but for
some
reason, flying this time (for the very first time in my life) has me
actually getting sweaty palms, and the idea of flying in as much pain as
I’ve been experiencing, ever growing ever more irritating and
slowing-me-down type pain, I’m simply not looking entirely forward to the
actual travel part of the trip- although flying first class has GOT to be
easier on my back and legs than flying coach, and I’m getting rides
beginning from my apartment door to airport, from airport to hotel, hotel
to
tv lot, back to hotel, back to airport, from NYC airport to apartment
door-
I’ve NEVER been able to travel THAT chaufered, so that in and of itself
makes it slight easier to feel somewhat enthusiastic about the whole
travel
thing part- the novelty alone will make a FUN story to write, beginning of
course with my standing in that freezing hallway at 6AM yesterday. God I
keep smackign myself in the head over that one. Boneheaded thing to do,
but
really funny if I don’t mind laughing at myself, which I usually don’t-
except I coulda slept in a LOT later yesterday and not had such a nervous
stomach for another week yet.
Any ideas on how to make this week go faster folks?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone

Hi Preston

I wish you all the luck in the world you will be fine, and try not to
worry
about the travelling.

love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxx

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From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone
Date: March 16, 2005 at 11:43:11 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello Preston;
I really believe once you are on the plane you are going to be just fine!
Take “something” for your pain issues so you can relax, have a nice soft
pillow and lean your seat back as far as it will go. I use dark sun-glasses
and just lay back and close my eyes. Chew gum at take off and at landing
time.it helps the pressure in your ears! Water is very good for dehydration;
better then alcohol because of the air pressure in the plane. You will feel
much more refreshed.
Try and relax this week, think of a new story (you are so good at this!) to
write and try to get your mind off from the negative thoughts, think
positive!
I am sending good vibes your way! You are going to do just great, really!!
Big Smile, Susan

—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone

Thank you Donna.
One might think simple physical traveling wouldn’t bother me so much,
considering all the astral/mental traveling I’ve done, which has shown me
in
so many ways the little teeny place I hold in the universe as a whole and
that I can rest easy about my brief time and end when it comes- but for
some
reason, flying this time (for the very first time in my life) has me
actually getting sweaty palms, and the idea of flying in as much pain as
I’ve been experiencing, ever growing ever more irritating and
slowing-me-down type pain, I’m simply not looking entirely forward to the
actual travel part of the trip- although flying first class has GOT to be
easier on my back and legs than flying coach, and I’m getting rides
beginning from my apartment door to airport, from airport to hotel, hotel
to
tv lot, back to hotel, back to airport, from NYC airport to apartment
door-
I’ve NEVER been able to travel THAT chaufered, so that in and of itself
makes it slight easier to feel somewhat enthusiastic about the whole
travel
thing part- the novelty alone will make a FUN story to write, beginning of
course with my standing in that freezing hallway at 6AM yesterday. God I
keep smackign myself in the head over that one. Boneheaded thing to do,
but
really funny if I don’t mind laughing at myself, which I usually don’t-
except I coulda slept in a LOT later yesterday and not had such a nervous
stomach for another week yet.
Any ideas on how to make this week go faster folks?

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hi everyone

Hi Preston

I wish you all the luck in the world you will be fine, and try not to
worry
about the travelling.

love Donnaxxxxxxxxxxxx

/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] preston..
Date: March 16, 2005 at 11:13:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

thanks for the sage advice Jon, I have to admit I’d already thought of the benzo routine though- funny how that works, druggy types thinking alike and all.
;-))
Who else here on the ibo list is in LA? Anyone? Where are you Jon? South, right? (Sorry, I simply cannot for the life of me remember- but I should point out btw, I thought it was awfully fun hanging out with you at Dana’s.)

Peace and love,
Preston

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] preston..

congrats on landing the acting gig! break a leg (not literally of course) =)

i get freaked out by airplanes sometimes too cause i’m kinda
claustrophobic… so i thought i’d mention what i do to get over it.

now, not that i’m advocating taking prescription drugs without the advice
and consent of a trained medical professional (ha ha)… but, whenever i
have to fly i usually take one or two ativan or xanax (depending on how
long the flight is).

works very well… especially if it happens to be a flight that offers a
complimentary drink =)

if you want to avoid the hassle of obtaining such drugs, kava and valerian
would prolly help somewhat as well. (my personal choice would be the
ativan though…ehe)

jon

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?
Date: March 16, 2005 at 11:10:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It did work for me more than once, using it for two three or four days even once, to kick a very heavy heroin addiction- of course I seemed to eventually go back to the heroin each time, but I was “clean” from opiates for a few months or even just a few weeks each time I used methadone to kick heroin. Then when I finally went on the KEEP program here in NYC, I was on methadone for nearly four years- and that was very difficult, in terms of discomfort and outright pain issues, much worse than kicking heroin cold turkey, which I’ve done a few times too.
Using small doses of methadone to kick a heroin habit does work, if you don’t go over just a few days of using it I’d imagine. You’re still going to have the psychological aspects to deal with, but you can get over the worst of heroin withdrawals by using small amounts of methadone for a few days.
At least, I did. Maybe it’s not the same for others- but in my case it worked fine.

Peace and love,
Preston Peet

“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Undergound- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

—– Original Message —– From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit?

Hi
I think starting methadone to curtail an h addiction is not a good idea. First because it is much more potent than most H on the street….second the half life of methadone is redicoulously long and sinks into your bones and stays there….from what i wnet through with meth withdarwl and from people i know and what i read i would never recomend meth to anyone especily for a few days…..u better off using junk because ull have less of a haslle coming off when u are ready

Warmest Regards

Matt

—-Original Message Follows—- From: AbbotAngel@aol.com Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] How long can you use Methadone before you get a habit? Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:10:31 EST Hi hannah i copied this mail from martee and jasen says this works to, i definately think its worth thinking about to get you past the really crap days, I hope you are ok, Im still using : ( love donnaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Donna, If you are on H only, have you ever considered just doing 3-4 days of methedone to get over your jones. It was something I commonly did during all my years, however I was not mentally ready to really stop so I always used again. You have stated that you feel mentally you are ready. The way it works is in 3 days you are not yet addicted to the methedone and then you have a few days after that where the accumulation of the 3 days of meth will hold you still. The worst of the H kick is usual