Ibogaine List Archives - 2006-04-1

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] 6th National Harm Reduction Conference
Date: April 30, 2006 at 10:45:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The 6th National Harm Reduction Conference will take place on November 9-12, 2006, at the Marriott Oakland City Center Hotel, in Oakland, California.

http://www.harmreduction.org/6national/

As of right now, abstract submissions are closed.

If you have submitted an abstract that pertains to ibogaine, there is nothing further that you need to do. If you have NOT submitted an abstract, plan to attend the conference, and want to talk — please let me know as soon as possible.

Everything is still a ways off in the distance, and updates will be posted as the event gets closer; but I would like to have an overall headcount so we have a better idea of how many speakers will be present.

RIGHT NOW, the date, time, and location for ibogaine presentations, are all in flux. The only solid details are the overall conferences dates, and location.

…

If you want to attend or speak, some stuff to keep in mind:

– This is a harm reduction conference. It’s not a psychedelic/entheogen gathering, and it’s not NA or AA. Several thousand individuals will show up, and many people will be active drug users, who have no desire to clean up.

– Scholarships are extremely limited, and generally pertain to waiving or lowering speaking fees. Travel and accommodations are not paid for; HRC is extremely strapped for cash, and not in a position to fly people around and pay for their rooms.

If you wish to attend, you’re going to have to get yourself to California, and find a place to crash/rent a hotel room.

Thanks,

Patrick

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]support in prep for ibo
Date: April 30, 2006 at 10:48:06 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Chi,
Don’t feel anyone is forcing any jesus or god down your throat. Just delete the fundementalist messages.
;0-)))
Take what is useful for you and your positive energy and sprits here, and toss the rest.
—–
“Everything they tell you about pot is a lie.
They tell you pot smoking makes you unmotivated.
It’s a lie.
When you’re high you can do everything
you can normally do, just as well, you just realize
it’s not worth the fucking effort.”
Bill Hicks

—– Original Message —– From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]support in prep for ibo

i joined this list after a friend who’s done ibo suggested it to me for support before, during and after being treated with ibo. I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD. im having another 5m methadone reduction on monday and still seeing my counsellor once a fortnight. these are the things id like to be able to discuss on here with anyone willing to be supportive and not ram jesus down my throat.
chi x

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] seeking help for a friend…need info from smarter minds
Date: April 30, 2006 at 10:02:17 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: grasshopper
To: IBO list
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [] RE: Your Process

any ideas on a titrate protocal from bup 0.3mg im x 4 daily over a 30 day period? the hopper’s beat, has to work and sliding in the mud. thanks, peaceful path to all, GH
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk ; eboga@elistas.com
Cc: Waynebronx4@aol.com ; Ibogaine – NUNZIO ; Ibogaine – Nick Sandberg ; Ibogaine – matthew zielinski ; Ibogaine – Luke Christoffersen ; Ibogaine – Kirk ; Ibogaine – grasshopper ; Ibogaine – david isaacson ; Ibogaine – Danny Torbica ; Ibogaine – brenda brewer ; Ibogaine – Andÿ Kassa ; Iboagine – Charles griffin
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 9:58 AM
Subject: [eboga] RE: Your Process

Hi Nick,

Firstly I agree, my final comments are simply my point of view and I do not wish to impose that on anybody. I guess its the way I write. I need to prefix what I say much more. I realised after posting it, it might be misconstrued.

The nature of the session itself was not ideal, nor was the setting which was provided freely. An extra 2 days and another 500 euros would have hired a house and made a very different session allowing me to be more effective. I now better realise the value of charging more as well as the variety of sessions/problems that can occur working with a powerful plant. This needs to be born in mind. I think however that is true for a lot of treatment providers. I am just simply accepting my part & putting the rest into context.

When I refer to the ego I am refering to the shadow. The ego for me is simply the translater or receiver of life experience. Its part of the body but in someone with healing to undergo it is dominated by the shadow in my experience and thats the problem as I see it as it causes all kinds of distorted thinking and negative behaviour. It is that which eboga in my experience brings to light and clears through all kinds of means including synchronistic means in my experience. As my writtings state all over the place you cannot exist without the ego, nor would I want to.

I am most certainly not seeking to impose my belief on anyone. I added my last comments as my opinion in closing the list. In treating someone I simply try to offer a safe environment and to help someone understand the importance of intention and facing what emerges. The answers I gave to the questions raised are based on my experience of the way eboga works via the openness of the heart and the intention of the individual. I have no bible thumping ajenda with eboga. I also no longer promote it. I just support it for those who have no choice but to use it.

Each person develops their own understanding through experience and ultimately makes their own way with the help of eboga as a guide and therapist.

Regarding Janov. Thats a long time ago but I do share a lot of the ideas of reliving and facing the trauma. I have used that approach for myself with eboga and it does work. I left Primal Therapy because in the end it did not work for me but many of the ideas on a personal level have a very useful application working with eboga in my own personal experience. The primal scream phenomena can also occur but it is not the be all and end all nor does it lead to sudden and full healing. That is pure fanciful thinking.

But please don’t confuse theoretical fancies about spirituality and healing with providing honest, trustworthy care to someone seeking help. Please don’t confuse it with taking the time and responsibility to learn fully a therapeutic technique with a registered school.

Eboga is the system of healing I understand and I pass it on via my writtings based on concrete actual and factual personal results over a period of almost 8 years. More results than most people can report in a lifetime. I do not believe I confuse theoretical “fancies” about spirituality & healing with providing … as these are two very different things. However, perhaps my post session analysis of Someshs case in my last post gives that impression. That is something I will need to dwell on more and consider better how I share my insights. Another reason why i prefer to write about what I have learned personally rather than attempt to apply it as each person has their own reality which only they really can understand. I simply offered my viewpoint. I did not impose it.

I also when treating someone offer the best I can at the time for the least amount of money. I did make a lot of effort for Somesh under less than ideal circumstances which I provided for Someshs benefit. Please don’t be too judgemental.

Regarding providing trustworthy care etc. As I have said I made some mistakes in this case due to various factors not all of which were of my making. We all play a part. However I have learned a lot and am much more aware of the issues now. I have actually undergone a fully registered therapeutic technique but eboga sessions were not something that was covered. In any case providing is about experience and awareness of what is going on and making sure the right space is in place and that costs money.

As I have already stated I do not wish to offer more sessions as I do not have the time or resources to offer the full range of backup and support that is required nor do I wish to charge the necessary amounts.

Sorry about the list.

Lee

Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Lee,

Thanks for writing and explaining more openly your position. I find you most definitely a caring person. I find it also a shame that this list will now close, especially as I only very recently seem to have got onto it! I find that the posts do raise interesting issues and I think much of what has been written here could serve as a useful resource for people seeking ibogaine treatment and those wishing to offer the same.

I would also like to bring up something which I do personally find an issue in your approach to healing. This is what I see as a strong “self-negatory” approach at times on your part. I have seen you write on occasions of an “ego” that apparently needs to be overcome, or in some way dropped in order for healing to take place. Whilst this may sound very true in theory, I think practically that it is not much near reality in the day to day dramas of therapy, at least not in my experience. (I am qualified in Humaniversity Therapy in Holland, and help manage an Osho community in Dorset, UK). For me, the ego is the ego and it is in no way a bad thing. Perhaps at times it needs or it seeks some cleaning and that is the business of therapy, but it is fundamentally a good thing. I don’t think many people working in therapy would disagree so much (of course I could be wrong).

I recall Janov’s first book, where he famously writes of a young man who lets out some deep, gut-wrenching yell at some stage in the process and finds this “primal scream” has healed him. Many people seek Janov’s therapy on the basis of this anecdote. Maybe for this guy it happened like this, but for most this is not what happens. It’s a long, drawn-out thing, often years of work with slowly accumulating results and frequent set-backs. People are attracted to the idea of a simplistic sudden release but it’s not reality. (Ibogaine, like primal therapy, is incidentally similarly attractive). Likewise, I find these occasional writings of yours on the ego, which seem to underpin your beliefs (again, I could be wrong), definitely disturbing when I consider you have been working with people using iboga. It’s just not cut and dried like this. The ego is a natural thing, it is not something to be mentally ravaged in accordance with theoretical expectations. I think it’s important to come from a space of loving your own ego and realising how precious it is when you’re offering therapy, otherwise where else exactly are you proposing to lead people?

I also find that people with this self-negatory, or ego-negatory, position can have difficulty taking personal responsibility for their actions. The very position of ego-negation means that they often process supersensory experiences as being the activity of angels or “higher beings” operating through them. Nothing so wrong with this on the surface, but it can develop to a state where they cease to take responsibility for their own actions, believing themselves mere channels through which more exalted entities are operating. Psychologically, this is really not healthy. And, with the abdication of personal responsibility, so follows the dogma – the decreed beliefs pushed out as facts that must be adhered to.

I see traces of this in how you come across to me. I also find you very compassionate and very well-intentioned, I have to say. But towards the end of your post below you again begin to make quite dictatorial statements about the nature of healing, spirituality, and eboga. Man, it is precisely that dictatorial attitude that is creating the conditioning and trauma you are simultaneously trying to heal! OK, so sometimes you need to confront people in therapy. You need encounter. But to simply impose a belief system on another in the way you do, in a therapeutic situation? I find it not so useful. Yeah, we put out our pet theories about everything on emails or in person, for sure. But with therapy stuff, when people are entrusting their well-being to you? I find this just so not the place. You are a very compassionate soul, Lee. I feel it in you. But please don’t confuse theoretical fancies about spirituality and healing with providing honest, trustworthy care to someone seeking help. Please don’t confuse it with taking the time and responsibility to learn fully a therapeutic technique with a registered school.

I don’t want to go on at you in some big judgmental fashion, one of my own tendencies. I’m happy you are taking a break from treating people. And I would so love it if you would take yourself into a professional therapeutic situation and get the personal insights and learning that would enable you to re-emerge into the iboga field making the best use of all your drive and compassion.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 29 April 2006 14:40
To: Eboga Network
Cc: Waynebronx4@aol.com; Ibogaine – NUNZIO; Ibogaine – Nick Sandberg; Ibogaine – matthew zielinski; Ibogaine – Luke Christoffersen; Ibogaine – Kirk; Ibogaine – grasshopper; Ibogaine – david isaacson; Ibogaine – Danny Torbica; Ibogaine – brenda brewer; Ibogaine – Andÿ Kassa; Iboagine – Charles griffin
Subject: Your Process

Somesh,

Since my last post I have undergone a session and come to realise that there is a side to this which I have not considered. I know what you were looking for now and I am really sorry that you did not get it. My last post was in self defence and not a task I particularly enjoyed. Sorry to have prolonged the agony.

I am also very sorry for what I done on Monday morning when I picked you up on the list. It was inappropriate and lacking in compassion. I should have called you and inquired as to how you were. I reacted as I felt sorry for the author of the email you had an issue with. I realise I could have felt more compassion for you but I guess our processes got intermesed somehow. You also may have felt that I was patronising you. I realise now that I was not there for you as I just switched off after you left because of the unexpected difficulty of the weekend.

I also now realise that the smell you refer to was due to the cat box being in the living room where you slept on the second night. I brought it in. That was an oversight on my part as also was the less than satisfactory maintenance of the toilet during your session. I clearly wasn’t fully aware of your needs.

I am very sorry for the hurt that I have caused you I will be sending you 100 euro by post to pay for your airfare. I hope this helps in some way. This means I will have made more or less zero for the session. That I feel is how it should be.

Eboga knew what it was doing when it sent you to me and equally the session you had is quite possibly what eboga wished for you. The benefits of a session are not always what we anticipate. I know that may not make things better or make sense in the normal scheme of things but it is worth considering.

Eboga is not just a healing system. It is a spiritual path that requires one to make certain changes before healing is attained. It has as its aim the freeing of the child within by the elimination of the shadow and for me this whole process between us has been very healing. Thank you. You came to me in a time of profound changes.

In line with this Eboga has made me aware that the time has come for me to close this list. I have also come to realise that this list is unfeasible for me personally in the long run. Recent events have been a catlyst, but not the reason for the closure.

I will close the list tomorrow evening and unsubscribe the member list. I am sorry if this causes anyone upset. I believe that the ibogaine list can meet most of the needs (if not all) of those here if used wisely.

Once again my apologies to you Somesh and blessings on your journey.

Wishing you and everyone well,

Lee

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From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] A sad tale…
Date: April 30, 2006 at 9:55:02 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

the alpha and omega of addiction. I know a good MD in S- FL who is a master at healing when he drops his ego and I know some independant contractors further up the state that like dinero but will surprise one when it comes to helping a sick addict get well. Shame it’s a cash cow now. I’ll probably die w/ this info but hopefully the right person will get it from me and prosper. ron
—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 7:10 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] A sad tale…

Thought I’d pass on this email (with permission) of a person’s account at Dr. Mash’s organization –
(Hi, well I went & it ended up being a nightmare. i went ahead with Dr. mash’s program I think because I had already done so much of the preliminary work with them & I was getting worn out with all the different tests etc. Especially working under a hmo. What a miwstake. I got there on a Thurwsday & they didn’t dowse me until Saturday morning. They were keeping me well supposedly with morphine. It must have been Mexican grade. I don’t know or the dose was just too low. Once I got sick I stayed sick the whole time. I never got well enough to sleep or eat the whole time I was there. They did keep me an extra day because I was still so sick & still throwing up. Not because of the Ibogaine cause I was throwing up before that Just because of the kicking. They should really keep people until they’re well. The flight home was miserable of course. As soon as I got home I fixed telling myself just for a little reprieve. I needed to eat to gain a little strength & at least one good nights sleep. Of course I was lying to myself there’s no such thing as one time. Now I’m just looking to go to (insuranced covered) 30 detox in patient. I don’t haqve the will power to do out patient. You know I’ve kicked other times cold (only by force) but 2 weeks is the average time to kick anyways. Before you can start to sleep & everything but the energy. Thaqt takes longer. I feel like I threw away all that money for nothing. I didn’t get any big revealations either. Maybe like you said I needed more treatments. They said they gave me an extra large dose because I was so hooked. It felt exactly like as if I had taken some acid or mescaline. At least the way those drugs were in the late 60’s early 70’s. I know from those trips that you can make it anything you want usually.
It just depends on your environment & what you start thinking about. Whatever you think about or is going on around you became more & more intensified. If I’d known that’s how it would be I could have tried to set the stage more effectedly for myself. I had been given the impression that if I just listened to the music & don’t hinder my experience it would be on an auto pilot type deal. It wasn’t. I could have bought it myself for $5.00 of less on the street & got the same thing out of it. That was the most important part for me. Maybe because I didn’t bekieve it enough. As soon as it was over I felt exactly as I had before I took it except discoraged. I don’t know the answer maybe I was expecting too much.
People need to know it doesn’t always work & they should definitely choose other than Dr. Mash. Not to mention Dr. Mash originally quoted me $3,500. Than her intake person told me it had been raised & Dr. Mash mis-quoted the price that it was now $5,500. I had to pay the higher price. Than a friend of mine called in to find out about going before she heard of my disaster. She mentioned that she had the $5,500 to go & the girl told her that was my price because we had been talking for so long & now her price is $7,000. These people are extorting addicts who are desperate to clean up. I’ve been trying to get a hold of Dr. Mash to tell her about it & now that ther’s no more funds to get from me I guess she’s not as accessable. Definitely let people know.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list…for Jeff G.
Date: April 30, 2006 at 9:40:19 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Say bro:
do female angels help raggedy men thru PAWS and other post ibo issues? ron
—– Original Message —–
From: Jeff G
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list….

Double P…
Yes,I was treated by Ibo Angels last november and yes it was one treatment for me, that and having six months to feel like shit with PAWS afterward while having Rachel-Angel there to spur me on despite my unbelievably bad attitude (well some days anyway) …
Now with a bit of perspective and time I can stil say that Ibogaine is a fucking miracle BUT NOT a magic bullet…
Freaking Free….
Jeff

On 4/29/06, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
When were you treated again? Didn’t you only need one ibo treatment to get on your feet again?

—–
“Everything they tell you about pot is a lie.
They tell you pot smoking makes you unmotivated.
It’s a lie.
When you’re high you can do everything
you can normally do, just as well, you just realize
it’s not worth the fucking effort.”
Bill Hicks

—– Original Message —–
From: Jeff G
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list….

….makes me miss ron, koko, and grasshopper,and I hope they are doing well.

Freak Free
jeff

From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] “You will release Ibogaine to the World, and set it free..”
Date: April 30, 2006 at 9:35:26 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick wrote:
…..There are symbolic parallels between taking ibogaine and crucifixion, I grant you, but I’d say this would relate more to ibogaine being a drug one might take to induce some form of psychological crucifixion, not relieve the pain of it……

I didn’t write what Nick wrote. At least get it straight.

Although Ibogaine IS like crucifixion and resurrection.

All MY stuff is in [Brackets].

Dana/cnw

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] “You will release Ibogaine to the World, and set it free..”(shooting K-9)OT
Date: April 30, 2006 at 9:30:41 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Speaking of dogs, did you know it’s a felony to injure a police dog in Fl.USA? They also get to wear 500 dollar bullet proof vests if the officer wants one for the pup. Puppy funerals get full honor guards w/bagpipes.. Suspects injured by police dogs get charged if they are bitten to prevent lawsuits and typically a resisting an officer charge to justify the bite. They are prosecuted vigorously as if they had hurt a human and many receive broken bones , missing noses and ears to go with the shredded flesh. A police k-9 alerting on a particular part of a car is probable cause for a search. An alert is anything the dog does that the officer says the dog does when smelling contraband, e.g. lifting hind leg and peeing, shaking head, walking in circles, a bark if lucky or sitting down or a hard stare at a glove compartment. If one is stopped for a traffic infraction, often times an officer will take an unusually long time to write a citation until a k-9 officer happens by to assist his or her fellow officer. Drivers w/ gold teeth , dreads, long hair or those that have a hard time getting their license out of their wallet or with shaky hands typically get a slow ticket. Ethnicity can be a factor at times as well as the neighborhood or time of day. I love dogs and most other critters,but often times their owners sux. Sorry to interrupt an exchange of substance with such a mundane digression. Dana, I remember our conversation about the demonstration at Grand Central Station in “68 I think …one of my favorite YIP-INS and STP handouts in Central Park around the same time. Pre Woodstock if I recall but my memory fades after decades of polishing the heads off most of my receptors. Warren- please accept my apology for the digression but some IBONAUTS may find this info useful, rude as the intrusion was. PAX, Grasshopper, on the edge.
Apologies to others on the list who read this expecting something intelligent as well. I go off when I backslide into hell but appreciate those dedicated to helping others and living sober. Oh, IBO can hurt as it cures for the uninitiated seeking addiction relief. I have references—– Original Message —–
From: Warren Theriot
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] “You will release Ibogaine to the World, and set it free..”

Dana, that was distressing to read that a cop shot your dog, especially you being 12 at the time. I hope the cop has a conscience that haunts him still. Thats what bothers me about some cops, that abject stupidity under stress. It still isn’t the animal’s fault even if it is used for law enforcement, it’s the humans’ fault for the persecution. No innocent dog deserves to be shot. And if somehow taking Ibogaine is a form of psychological crucifixion, why would anyone want to take it to free themselves of addiction. It seems most likely that the addiction is the self-crucifixion and the Ibogaine is the path to self-Resurrection. If Ibogaine could be more unpleasant and painful than the life that came before, it doesn’t sound like the way to go for me. Can you put it another way I could relate to?
Warren

On Apr 30, 2006, at 1:19 PM, Dana Beal wrote:
…..There are symbolic parallels between taking ibogaine and crucifixion, I grant you, but I’d say this would relate more to ibogaine being a drug one might take to induce some form of psychological crucifixion, not relieve the pain of it……

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] A sad tale…
Date: April 30, 2006 at 8:10:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Warren Theriot <warrentheriot@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] “You will release Ibogaine to the World, and set it free..”
Date: April 30, 2006 at 5:54:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]support in prep for ibo
Date: April 30, 2006 at 4:35:37 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Different ropes are spiritual paths leading to the same treehouse where the Great Spirit awaits those that make the journey. Christianity is but one of those. Grasshopper oh, belief is not necessary but may lend comfort to those that do. Journeyed twice, praying thru both failed attempts. I’m in the US. Good providers like Tommy don’t care whether you believe. 100’s of 1000s get straight w/o IBO thru NA and AA believing there might be one. I was straight for 15 yrs . believing. During my continuing commute to hell, I still pray. Go figure. Be a pleasure to share off list if you wish.
—– Original Message —– From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]support in prep for ibo

From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] “You will release Ibogaine to the World, and set it free..”
Date: April 30, 2006 at 4:19:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: jon@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] correction

And Billy, if you could be at Golgotha, and hold up a sponge with to
His lips with a white vinegar extraction of harmala and iboga on it
to ease His suffering, would there be any hesitation, any doubt as to
what you would do?

Personally, I think if I was gonna be having nails hammered into my hands
and feet, and strung up on a cross to suffocate to death, I’d be reaching
for the morphine or general anaesthetic quicker than the iboga..

But that’s just me..

Actually, come to think of it, I wouldn’t be reaching at all.. if my hands
were nailed to a plank of wood, i mean…

[Jon: since yr scientific enough to argue the pharmacology (not being wedded to the literal text of the Bible), surely you understand that an opiate (which Schonfield kind of implies it was in the THE PASSOVER PLOT) would only hasten respiratory collapse. So you’d need something like cocaine, which is used in eye operations where the patient has to stay awake to give the doctor feedback. The Bwiti, who give iboga to bring people the brink of death in order to meet the Ancestors, judge that an initiate has taken enough when their body is completely numb up to the top of the neck. But (and this is the important part) ibogaine has been patented by Olney for treatment of ischemia (global stroke)–so that respiratory collapse and brain death would have been deferred for at least 3 hours]

From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Read everything I wrote, at least

Dana,

I’m not an expert of biblical stuff, possibly because I consider myself (maybe wrongly) not dull enough to become some kind of scholar. I also like to think that I have better things to do than learn all the possible interpretations available for biblical scripture and study all this shit for years. What I know is more what has come to me in the times I’ve been interested in these things. I’ve had bursts of energy for it at various times over the last 7-8 odd years.

What I figure is….it’s grossly unlikely that any real, living Jesus ever walked the earth or had the events of his life recorded in the new testament. I put the reasons for this out before. It seems to me that this rather undermines your theory that Jesus was given ibogaine on the cross. There are symbolic parallels between taking ibogaine and crucifixion, I grant you, but I’d say this would relate more to ibogaine being a drug one might take to induce some form of psychological crucifixion, not relieve the pain of it. And this is just symbology – not real historical fact. As to whether ibogaine mimics symbolically or actually the use of sacraments, as in water and wine, well you’d have to write me more about this. It doesn’t sound too promising a line of inquiry to me but I’d be happy to listen if you can state simply and clearly to what you refer. BTW, to write “in a sense replaces” also doesn’t sound so hopeful. Everything in a sense resembles or replaces everything else.

Nick

—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@phantom.com]
Sent: 26 April 2006 02:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Read everything I wrote, at least

Dana,

The word “Jesus,” whether as the Greek “Iessous” or the Hebrew “Jeheshuah” is a fucking mystical term, man. It is entrenched in Kabbalistic and Alchemical symbolism up to the ears. It means bugger all that it is mentioned in any book with any level of mystical association, ie. that these works use the word does nothing whatsoever to infer that there ever was a real living “Jesus” that walked the earth 2,000 years ago.

Nick

You’re not responding to the substance of my post, which is that ibogaine in a sense REPLACES the wine and wafer.

Dana/cnw

From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Read everything I wrote, at least

Forgot to mention that I can’t read everything you have written on this. I simply don’t have the time. I apologize for this but I also have to say that, for me, it’s important that you can state clearly what your argument is, in reasonably layman-like terms, and without having to refer to lots of subsidiary concepts and beliefs, many of which are themselves highly tangential culturally. Reading your stuff, I sometimes feel like I’m being dragged into an aeon of underground or new-age study which, frankly, I’m just not interested in. It’s turns me off. Maybe this is just me, I don’t know how other people find it. I don’t read much as a rule.

Nick

From: maseshipley@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Read everything I wrote, at least

I’ve got to agree with this. I can deal with the bible thumpers when
it’s not 5 of them writing 60 messages a day, I realize most of the
authors are still addicted and trying to find solace and strength
where they may, good on them. Dana you don’t have any such excuse, I
understand you do a lot of good and have championed ibogaine forever,
but any time I click on a single link you enclose, it feels like I’m
in the middle of a bowl of spaghetti, with every few paragraphs
referencing gobs of what seems to me at least, unrelated pseudo new
age christianity wrapped up in psychedelic drugs and how they were
there at every corner of the evolution of man. I don’t doubt that
psychedelic drugs have been responsible for many of mankind’s great
steps forward, Terrence McKenna’s writings covered this through many
books, the difference is with McKenna even when it turns into nonsense
at least its entertaining. With your writing it seems more like going
to a religious section of a library, opening up every book at random
and then connecting everything to ibogaine or any weird theory you can
think of at that moment and connecting all of it together.

Fun time as a hobby I suppose, but from the outside looking in, it’s
the same old conspiracy I can find from any cult. You reference all of
this material, but somehow I get the idea you interpret anything and
everything, however you want, to make it fit your theories and
honestly I am at a loss as to what you’re talking about, other then
ibogaine being at the center of all evolution on our planet. If your
answer requires a person to go read a huge assortment of books, I
don’t think you’re going to have many takers. I have read through the
ibogaine story, I can’t help but get smacked in the face with your
work, it’s right around the corner on any page I load from Mindvox,
but I find it completely unreadable. It’s not as if I agree or
disagree, it’s not coherent enough to form any opinion on the
material. You present interesting historical events as they relate to
ibogaine and then wrap every conspiracy and religious theory that’s
out there and tangle all of it up into one immense mass of confusing
narrative.

-Mase

From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Read everything I wrote, at least….

Mace, I totally agree with what you said.
I am not a Bible thumper but I will speak up softly about my belief in God and Jesus and the stories in the Bible.
I usually don’t reply to Dana’s messages because I rarely clearly ‘hear’ what he is saying! I interpret his writing and thoughts totally different than what he is trying to convey. Hell, I still can’t navigate MindVox without getting ‘lost’ or frustrated! lol! It is an impressive sight. I LOVE the art work.
btw, I love the name Mace. Is it your ‘given’ name?
Peace, Callie

[Okay, once again, from the top: when I started to put THE IBOGAINE STORY together, a lot of stuff that I thought was relevant turned out to be just not that relevant (e.g: Spinrad’s AGENT OF CHAOS). But as I realized once again after Ken’s recent presentation about converging second-messenger effects, VALIS gives one of the best descriptions of what Ibogaine is doing I’ve ever found: something extrinsic to us that causes us to remember (on cellular level, as in a dream) what we already know, intrinsically, but are not able to remember because the info is “occluded” (Dick’s term for it).

As I put it recently in a talk, ibogaine helps the to process the situation it’s in (not cognitively, but in a process similar to REM) and come up with exactly the immune response required.

Please note that immune response takes many more forms than antibodies or killer T cells, as in the seemingly spontaneous healing of my daughter’s “wound that would not heal.” Except that it was not spontaneous. As I told her ahead of time, it happened as the result of taking ibogaine.

I am not a prophet, BTW. I just “referenc(ed) gobs of what seems (like) unrelated pseudo new
age Christianity wrapped up in psychedelic drugs.”

BTW McKenna, who I tried to talk to about Ibogaine, could never really get past his fascination with his favorite drug, DMT, and see how ibo is truly DIFFERENT, so talking to him was a complete disappointment. All he did was refer me to Eliade. Well, Philip Dick refers everyone who reads VALIS to Eliade.]

From: billjohnson6@sympatico.ca
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] correction

Hello there, on my way tom work ‘Yuk’ but must pay my dues.(I actually enjoy work mostly).

[If it could be done with Angels, why incarnate to being with?]

But Scripture had to be fulfilled, and as for Me, YES if I was at Golgatha and had the chance to help My Lord YES I would give Him whatever I could to ease His Pain,

[So far so good]

But Then Scripture would not have been fulfilled

[This is one of the points where the Bible actually contradicts itself, since the two more Greek gospels say he didn’t partake of the sponge, and John, which is closest to the original Nazarene version, says he did.

So which is it?]

…and I would have interrupted history, and Christ would have not been The Christ.

[Or you would have fulfilled history, since Christ, as the very embodiment of Divine Law, obviously qualifies to access the Tree of Life, as cited in Revelations 22: 1, 22: 2 and 22: 13, 22:14]

If Someone was to be able to interfere, Wasn’t possible, yet it is a nice story for US to think that as mere Humans WE could have a part with God.

[So what exactly is Joseph of Aramathea doing in the story then..? Once again, if humans had no role in the story, why incarnate?]

Just accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and You Too Will be Saved.

[As North American Apostolic Delegate of the Sacrament of Transition, I believe I’m “covered.”]

Love and Smiles all day
Bill ,

P.S. I Received My DVD Yesterday of the RITE TO PASSAGE, will be watching it tonight.
Please Ye All Have a Great Straight Day (If Possible)

[One thing more that may explain the relevance of VALIS–

When I thought my book was done, and Paul De Rienzo had read the first 15 Chapters of it onto audotape to get it into a single voice, I still had this feeling like “What am I seeing here that I’m not getting?” I was particularly baffled by the way in which PKD, obviously influenced by Bishop Pike and worried about the fundamentalist firestorm that greeted “The Mushroom and the Cross” (which led to John Allegro being fired from the Dead Sea Scrolls project) never directly addresses the Mystery he leaves so many clues to.

And then as it says in the beginning of Chapter 16, I watched the DAY ONE video again where they show a Bwiti initiate being pierced with a sliver to see if he’s numb enough yet for them to know that he’s really at the requisite level of ibogainization, and I flashed on all the above. And realized the book was yet not done, and asked Bob Sisko the question that lead to me reading the PASSOVER PLOT.

The Jews, you know, have a different version of the story. One in which Jesus is not born of a virgin impregnated by God, but was instead of great Magus. Like the 3 Kings from the East. Remember that the first person to preach of Jesus in Rome was not Peter, but a man named Simon Magus. My job as Ibogaine Apostle is to relate the new sacrament to all faiths, all nations, all saviors and prophets. To tell how Buddha attained enlightenment after eating a single pot seed. To remind Islamics that the Angel Gabriel first appeared to Mohammed in a Dream, as in an Iboga vision. And yes, to inspire Christians with a new understanding of the Grail, one that announces that mankind is finally ready to partake of the Tree of Life, access to which was lost when we were expelled from the Garden.

–Dana/co-Founder, Cures not Wars (Cures not Wars being a message not originated by me).]

“You will release Ibogaine to the World, and set it free..” –Voices heard by Howard Lotsof during his first Session

From: “cm” <cm67@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]support in prep for ibo
Date: April 29, 2006 at 1:21:43 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] exactly from what does jesus purport to save people?
Date: April 30, 2006 at 1:32:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

When I was 12 a cop shot my dog Spotty. She was a good dog who had had many litters of puppies. But the temperature was 102 in the shade, and after running alongside my bike the 4 miles up to Okemos, she was foaming at the mouth, because that’s the way dogs sweat. When she jumped up to greet the town constable by licking him on the face, because that the way she’d always greeted people, he shot her dead. He just assumed she was rabid.

Nobody executes dope dogs who bust people for pot, I might add.

That might be a good thing. And it would avenge Spotty.

Dana/cnw

On Apr 28, 2006, at 10:07 PM, Warren Theriot wrote:
Not in direct answer to you Callie, but in general, I have had a problem with the concept of a benevolent God ever since I was a kid. I had a mean grandmother, besides having a nice one. The mean one punished me for what she thought was me cussing, when I was 6, making kid sounds with my mouth, experimenting with different sounds, one which sounded like “piss”. I told her I wished she would go away and never come back. 6 months later, she died of cancer and I felt guilty about that for years and kept it inside. When I was 10 my dog got hit by a car and a my mother told me that it was God’s punishment for not obeying, by my not keeping the dog tied up when I was finished playing with it . It always barked when no one was giving it attention and it was only a 9 month old puppy. Thats probably why I cant stand to hear other people’s dogs barking all the time. I went to church as a teenager from 11 to 17, but my favorite part of church was the social interaction with the people my age, and the pipe organ music. When I first took drugs, weed at 16, I felt guilty, but when God didn’t kill me time after time after time, I began not to fear God so much as to feel unworthy inside. To this day it is only by the faith I have in something inside myself that I can keep going. Everything that has gone right or wrong seems because of my own decisions. And still there is that fear that if I say I’m agnostic, I will surely suffer more. It is only psychedelics that have provided a stronger basis for my believing in God for me as an adult. I still don’t resonate with the head-bobbing of Muslim or Jewish prayer or Catholic kneeling or looking at the floor when the minister says a prayer. Go figure.
Warren
On Apr 28, 2006, at 4:25 PM, CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
I didn’t take it as belittling or condescending. I love to discuss things!
I am having an equally hard time understanding how you can NOT believe or how you can compare Heaven and Hell to the tooth fairy.
At this point I can’t explain why I see those two things as different but the word Faith keeps popping in my mind. I have faith in the things I believe in. I have faith that Jesus died on the cross for my/our sins. I have faith that Jesus rose from the dead and that his mother was a virgin when he was born. Faith is stronger than believing……it is the same but different.
Got to go to work now but will look for posts later
callie

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list….needs to know Tommy
Date: April 30, 2006 at 1:40:23 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

if you know him, may I pm you off list? can’t reach him by phone for reasons he knows and would like to smooth some rough edges. I’m old school so all cards are close to the chest and I believe he has my trust. thanks in advance, disregard if you think it’s a waste of his time. there’s a house for rent and other odds and ends. grasshopper> rwd3@cox.net the hopper has a land line that can’t be published. Peaceful Path to you
—– Original Message —–
From: Jeff G
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list….

On 4/29/06, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
When were you treated again? Didn’t you only need one ibo treatment to get on your feet again?

—– Original Message —–
From: Jeff G
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list….

….makes me miss ron, koko, and grasshopper,and I hope they are doing well.

Freak Free
jeff

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Another version of the truth lolol
Date: April 30, 2006 at 1:24:03 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

the three entities operating on this addie always enjoy being offended by the Kiwi. Welcome to the hall of slime, a place I’ve occupied for decades in an obscure courthouse on an obscure plaque, in an obscure corner of an obscure office hanging on an obscure wall in an obscure state in the States. There are many ways to get there and it’s an honor if you trust a klown in a human body. oh, mayI PM you off list in human form? r, gh and k
—– Original Message —– From: “Kirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 4:26 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Another version of the truth lolol

Check this quote out (caution, CONTENT WILL OFFEND THE OFFENDABLE.)
Bloody good movie, if not a bit disturbing in places…. but that’s Aussies
for ya lolol
http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0106341/quotes

if ya can’t beat em, baffle em with bullshit.

—
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 – Release Date: 04/25/2006

From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Pinchbeck and HT
Date: April 30, 2006 at 1:14:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Recently Steve Hagar said my spiel on public health marijuana and ibogaine, while worthy of a High Times interview, could not be run because I was not famous enough.

Interesting. Because they’ve pretty much refused to cover me since he took over, I guess that’s true. They have always been pissed off that I pointed out that Jack Herer stole the “Emperor Wears no Clothes” from Hans Georg Behr’s “Von Hempf ist Die Rede”–when they were intent on running Jack Herer in every other issue.

Making him famous enough for multiple front-cover interviews.

Another chicken and egg situation with the chicken smug, self-satisfied and smoking a cigarette.

At least it answers the question of who came first. And who got fucked.

O well.

Perhaps some one(s) from the list should write Hagar advising him how rude and vacuous Pinchbeck was at Alex Grey’s during the ibo-forum in February. The email is shagar@hightimes.com . Let him know what you think.

Dana/cnw

On Apr 29, 2006, at 10:33 AM, Preston Peet wrote:

The new, soon to hit stands July issue of High Times has a very interesting interview with Daniel Pinchbeck on page 64, discussing “Mayan prophecy, crop circles, shamanism and exotic hallucinogens,” among other things (not to mention the issue also contains a brief little Freedom Fighter piece by me).
Congrats Daniel.

From: “Jeff G” <jeffgallop@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list….
Date: April 30, 2006 at 12:27:54 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On 4/29/06, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
When were you treated again? Didn’t you only need one ibo treatment to get on your feet again?

—– Original Message —–
From: Jeff G
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] you know lately this list….

….makes me miss ron, koko, and grasshopper,and I hope they are doing well.

Freak Free
jeff

From: Warren Theriot <warrentheriot@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Another version of the truth lolol
Date: April 30, 2006 at 5:43:56 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This gives me a sensation of having my head split in half in just the quantum possibility that is and not is are both at the same time.
Warren
On Apr 30, 2006, at 2:26 AM, Kirk wrote:

if ya can’t beat em, baffle em with bullshit.

—
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 – Release Date: 04/25/2006

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Another version of the truth lolol
Date: April 30, 2006 at 5:26:27 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

if ya can’t beat em, baffle em with bullshit.

—
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 – Release Date: 04/25/2006

From: Warren Theriot <warrentheriot@comcast.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: Ibogaine RE: space…
Date: April 30, 2006 at 4:18:16 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I hope this isn’t too much space…

Warren

/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Jon I Feel Sorry 4 You 2
Date: April 30, 2006 at 3:26:25 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Puts her fingers in her ears and goes
“LALALALALALALALLALALALALALALALALALALALALLAALLAALLAALALALALALALLALAALALALALA
LALALALALALALALALLALALALALALA”
Lol

—–Original Message—–
From: jon [mailto:jon@mindvox.com]
Sent: Sunday, 30 April 2006 7:17 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jon I Feel Sorry 4 You 2

Well, I’m sorry if you feel I misinterpreted what you were saying;
though, it probably would help if you could try to speak a bit more
coherently.

Exactly what words of yours do you feel I changed?

I am sure you will give me thew answers, and I thank you in advance.

P.S.See If you can Re- Quote This Quote, Exactly
It is not what goes in a person that defiles them, rather it is what
comes out of our mouths that defile us,

Bill,
i love this List

for <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>; Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:06:03 -0400
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proof? really?

i mean, come on…. i can buy the “i just have faith” argument. if
someone believes something, that’s their right, whether they can make a
logical argument for their belief or not.

but don’t try to make like there is some logical argument to prove the
existence of god.

to be a bit on the blunt side, that’s just bullshit. what is this proof
of god you say we’ve acquired in the past century, that only you seem to
know about? there’s a pretty substantial body of evidence that explains
where we came from without having to invoke supernatural powers. while,
on the other hand, there isn’t a shred of evidence to the contrary.

and, unless you’re reading posts of his that i’m not, i don’t see what
makes you think crooked eye is a hateful, selfish person. i mean, he may
very well be that in real life, i’ve no idea…ehe.. but he doesn’t give
the impression so from his posts, which tend to be level-headed and
thoughtful.

Billy J wrote:

Hey, I guess Crooked eye didn’t come from anywhere, It took a lot of
practice to be able to get as far out there as your message below. It
would only appear that you , on top of the obvious(why we are on this
List) that You Have a Great deal of hate and that anything like the
Words of God that May and wil deliver you from All the Lies that you
have been Brainwashed into believing(hence that Your own Highness
would be Greater than anything else Lol.)

Well Crooked, I still believe and the PROOF is there, where have
you got your diinformation from- I could only guess – Do you Subscribe
to the Self Bible? The If It Feels Good Do It Bible?
Well I Love You and I care for You, Can you find it in your heart to
unconditionally care for every other human being? Even if they rub you
the wrong way? If the answer is Yes, then you have had God in fluence
your life, If No,Well then ???? There is still Time as long as you are
breathing, But remember that PRIDE always comes before destruction,
Please try to be Humble and do not stomp All over My words with
Slander and Caurse Launguage, because it will only proove that Because
We Alll have FREE will We open our Mouths and prove we are idiots.

try and Not Be offended, But To remember, that if we did not come from
God then what is your answer, and as for proof. where have you been
this last century?

Bill,
Still hurting, But always trying to Love,
Why, Cause I believe that thing you call stupid, that says LOVE WILL
And Does Conquer Everything. PERIOD

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But as for me , if the Bible says it I BELIEVE IT. PERIOD.

uh huh, and the earth was created in 7 days and woman made from mans
rib.. LMAO
That evolution nonsense couldn’t possibly be the way things happened,
seein as
that’s what the evidence suggests.. May as well believe in unicorns,
elves,
santa claus, the easter bunny, and any other mythical being you can
imagine…
Who needs proof when you have the Bible? I mean, if so many people
believe it,
it must be true, right? I just don’t understand how people are
suckered into
believing all these grandiose stories.. Where have you ever seen any
evidence
that the Bible is true? Did you see Jesus in your toast or the
virgin Mary in
some woodgrains? I could go on forever about all the utter bullshit
in the Bible,
but it’s obvious that by the statement quoted above, that it wouldn’t
matter if it said
cut off your genitals paste em to your forehead and dance around until
you bled to
death, because “the bible” said so.. Plenty of things in the bible
that would seem
atrocious by todays standards, but alas, the Bible is easy to bend to
conform to your
desires… That’s why so many branches of Christianity exist.. It’s
all about what
set of beliefs you want to conform to.. If these things were fact,
why would you
need so many different sects? What makes Christianity the “right”
way? I mean what
makes Jesus more believable, than Mohammed or Buddha? How did you
come to be a
Christian? Were you just taught that as a child and it stuck? What
if you were an
Indian child, would you be Hindu, just because? I don’t honestly care
what religion
you choose, but I think you should do a bit more thinking for
yourself.. Start taking
responsibilty for yourself, stop believing ghost stories, and take
control of your life.
You might be amazed at the power you have with a new set of beliefs…
You create your own reality…

captkirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> wrote: ARRGHHH GIBBER GIBBER TWITCH
TWITCH GIBBER GIBBER DROOL
ARRGHHHHHHHHH EYE TWITCH GRRRARGHHHHHHHFUK
READ ANOTHER BOOK THERE ARE OTHERS.

—– Original Message Follows —–
Hello there, on my way tom work ‘Yuk’ but must pay my
dues.(I actually enjoy work mostly).

Hey Dana, and all who have anything to say about Jesus,
You can all say what you want about Jesus I guess (free
will and all) But as for me , if the Bible says it I
BELIEVE IT. PERIOD. If Jesus needed any Help He would have
just called upon His Own Legion of Angles, that where
always at His comand, But Scripture had to be fulfilled,
and as for Me, YES if I was at Gogatha and had the chance
to help My Lord YES I would give Him watever I could to
ease His Pain, But Then Scripture would not have been
fulfilled and I would have interupted history, and Christ
would have not been The Christ If Someone was to be able
to interfere, Wasn’t possible, yet it is a nice story for
US to think that as mere Humans WE could have a part with
God. Just acceptr Jesus as Lord and Savior and You Too
Will be Saved.

Love and Smiles all day
Bill ,

P.S. I Recieved My DVD Yesterday of the RITE TO PASSAGE,
will be watching it tonight.
Please Ye All Have a Great Straight Day (If Possible)

—-Original Message Follows—-
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] correction
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:13:22 -0400
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I meant to write:

And Billy, if you could be at Golgotha, and hold up a
sponge with to His lips with a white vinegar extraction
of harmala and iboga on it to ease His suffering, would
there be any hesitation, any doubt as to what you would
do?

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From: jon <jon@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jon I Feel Sorry 4 You 2
Date: April 30, 2006 at 3:17:19 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well, I’m sorry if you feel I misinterpreted what you were saying; though, it probably would help if you could try to speak a bit more coherently.

Exactly what words of yours do you feel I changed?

Billy J wrote:
Hey now there, Just 1st learn how to quote (read) and stop your BS of changing my words into what suits you> Got it! That kind of crap is what starts wars, he said shae said, oh well thats what he meant( Cause I was a phycic in my last life) I can read what He is not saying, Stop It.
RE-Read,
I Too Think that Crooked eye is a decent person, I Did Not say He was a Hateful person But I will Call you something, ( Hows Dirty mouth, or bitterboy),
but Really can you Help me out and Enlighten me as to my Origins , or rather yours, cause I do not think We come from the same ???? tree???, Bang???.
Let Me Know, As I will try to Fall for it, only if it is not to far fetched, and My God wasn’t stoned when I was ??? made??/ Is There another Me somewhare/ and can I see Him??
I am sure you will give me thew answers, and I thank you in advance.
P.S.See If you can Re- Quote This Quote, Exactly
It is not what goes in a person that defiles them, rather it is what comes out of our mouths that defile us,
Bill,
i love this List
—-Original Message Follows—-
From: jon <jon@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:04:38 -0400
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proof? really?
i mean, come on…. i can buy the “i just have faith” argument. if someone believes something, that’s their right, whether they can make a logical argument for their belief or not.
but don’t try to make like there is some logical argument to prove the existence of god.
to be a bit on the blunt side, that’s just bullshit. what is this proof of god you say we’ve acquired in the past century, that only you seem to know about? there’s a pretty substantial body of evidence that explains where we came from without having to invoke supernatural powers. while, on the other hand, there isn’t a shred of evidence to the contrary.
and, unless you’re reading posts of his that i’m not, i don’t see what makes you think crooked eye is a hateful, selfish person. i mean, he may very well be that in real life, i’ve no idea…ehe.. but he doesn’t give the impression so from his posts, which tend to be level-headed and thoughtful.
Billy J wrote:
Hey, I guess Crooked eye didn’t come from anywhere, It took a lot of practice to be able to get as far out there as your message below. It would only appear that you , on top of the obvious(why we are on this List) that You Have a Great deal of hate and that anything like the Words of God that May and wil deliver you from All the Lies that you have been Brainwashed into believing(hence that Your own Highness would be Greater than anything else Lol.)

Well Crooked, I still believe and the PROOF is there, where have you got your diinformation from- I could only guess – Do you Subscribe to the Self Bible? The If It Feels Good Do It Bible?
Well I Love You and I care for You, Can you find it in your heart to unconditionally care for every other human being? Even if they rub you the wrong way? If the answer is Yes, then you have had God in fluence your life, If No,Well then ???? There is still Time as long as you are breathing, But remember that PRIDE always comes before destruction, Please try to be Humble and do not stomp All over My words with Slander and Caurse Launguage, because it will only proove that Because We Alll have FREE will We open our Mouths and prove we are idiots.

try and Not Be offended, But To remember, that if we did not come from God then what is your answer, and as for proof. where have you been this last century?

Bill,
Still hurting, But always trying to Love,
Why, Cause I believe that thing you call stupid, that says LOVE WILL And Does Conquer Everything. PERIOD

—-Original Message Follows—-
From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] correction
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
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But as for me , if the Bible says it I BELIEVE IT. PERIOD.

uh huh, and the earth was created in 7 days and woman made from mans rib.. LMAO
That evolution nonsense couldn’t possibly be the way things happened, seein as
that’s what the evidence suggests.. May as well believe in unicorns, elves,
santa claus, the easter bunny, and any other mythical being you can imagine…
Who needs proof when you have the Bible? I mean, if so many people believe it,
it must be true, right? I just don’t understand how people are suckered into
believing all these grandiose stories.. Where have you ever seen any evidence
that the Bible is true? Did you see Jesus in your toast or the virgin Mary in
some woodgrains? I could go on forever about all the utter bullshit in the Bible,
but it’s obvious that by the statement quoted above, that it wouldn’t matter if it said
cut off your genitals paste em to your forehead and dance around until you bled to
death, because “the bible” said so.. Plenty of things in the bible that would seem
atrocious by todays standards, but alas, the Bible is easy to bend to conform to your
desires… That’s why so many branches of Christianity exist.. It’s all about what
set of beliefs you want to conform to.. If these things were fact, why would you
need so many different sects? What makes Christianity the “right” way? I mean what
makes Jesus more believable, than Mohammed or Buddha? How did you come to be a
Christian? Were you just taught that as a child and it stuck? What if you were an
Indian child, would you be Hindu, just because? I don’t honestly care what religion
you choose, but I think you should do a bit more thinking for yourself.. Start taking
responsibilty for yourself, stop believing ghost stories, and take control of your life.
You might be amazed at the power you have with a new set of beliefs…
You create your own reality…

captkirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> wrote: ARRGHHH GIBBER GIBBER TWITCH TWITCH GIBBER GIBBER DROOL
ARRGHHHHHHHHH EYE TWITCH GRRRARGHHHHHHHFUK
READ ANOTHER BOOK THERE ARE OTHERS.

—– Original Message Follows —–
> Hello there, on my way tom work ‘Yuk’ but must pay my
> dues.(I actually enjoy work mostly).
>
> Hey Dana, and all who have anything to say about Jesus,
> You can all say what you want about Jesus I guess (free
> will and all) But as for me , if the Bible says it I
> BELIEVE IT. PERIOD. If Jesus needed any Help He would have
> just called upon His Own Legion of Angles, that where
> always at His comand, But Scripture had to be fulfilled,
> and as for Me, YES if I was at Gogatha and had the chance
> to help My Lord YES I would give Him watever I could to
> ease His Pain, But Then Scripture would not have been
> fulfilled and I would have interupted history, and Christ
> would have not been The Christ If Someone was to be able
> to interfere, Wasn’t possible, yet it is a nice story for
> US to think that as mere Humans WE could have a part with
> God. Just acceptr Jesus as Lord and Savior and You Too
> Will be Saved.
>
> Love and Smiles all day
> Bill ,
>
> P.S. I Recieved My DVD Yesterday of the RITE TO PASSAGE,
> will be watching it tonight.
> Please Ye All Have a Great Straight Day (If Possible)
>
> —-Original Message Follows—-
> From: Dana Beal
> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: [Ibogaine] correction
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:13:22 -0400
> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2)
> Received: from tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net
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> FILETIME=[85A1BAA0:01C66965]
>
> I meant to write:
>
> And Billy, if you could be at Golgotha, and hold up a
> sponge with to His lips with a white vinegar extraction
> of harmala and iboga on it to ease His suffering, would
> there be any hesitation, any doubt as to what you would
> do?
>
>
>
>
> /]=——————————————————-
> ————–=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>
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From: jon <jon@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Lets Change this topic it’s past it’s use by date….
Date: April 30, 2006 at 3:20:41 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

sorry… religion and religious people are fascinations of mine… much as schizophrenia and serial killers are…

but i’ll give it a rest. congrats on smelling good again =)

Kirk wrote:
Who’s up for it??????????? I for one have had it with this subject no
wonder there’s no peace on this forsaken planet no matter HOW the fuck it or
we came to be here lolol.
Anywayyyyyy another Sunday passes since I did…. um… what’s it called
again…. oh yehh IBOGAINE!!!!!! Finally that horrible detox/methadone
stench has left my body (actually last Sunday that happened, every Sunday
something different seems to happen… weird huh…) that no B.O. killer
seems to be able to kill for very long, specially when one is slightly
active!! I can finally go out in public lolol without offending anyone
(including myself) if I haven’t showered three times that day…..
See didn’t you just really enjoy hearing about my body odours??????
Luv lite n lafta Koiky :o)

From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Lets Change this topic it’s past it’s use by date….
Date: April 30, 2006 at 3:01:39 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Who’s up for it??????????? I for one have had it with this subject no
wonder there’s no peace on this forsaken planet no matter HOW the fuck it or
we came to be here lolol.

Anywayyyyyy another Sunday passes since I did…. um… what’s it called
again…. oh yehh IBOGAINE!!!!!! Finally that horrible detox/methadone
stench has left my body (actually last Sunday that happened, every Sunday
something different seems to happen… weird huh…) that no B.O. killer
seems to be able to kill for very long, specially when one is slightly
active!! I can finally go out in public lolol without offending anyone
(including myself) if I haven’t showered three times that day…..

See didn’t you just really enjoy hearing about my body odours??????

Luv lite n lafta

Koiky :o)

—
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Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 – Release Date: 04/25/2006

From: “Billy J” <billjohnson6@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jon I Feel Sorry 4 You 2
Date: April 30, 2006 at 2:25:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey now there, Just 1st learn how to quote (read) and stop your BS of changing my words into what suits you> Got it! That kind of crap is what starts wars, he said shae said, oh well thats what he meant( Cause I was a phycic in my last life) I can read what He is not saying, Stop It.
RE-Read,
I Too Think that Crooked eye is a decent person, I Did Not say He was a Hateful person But I will Call you something, ( Hows Dirty mouth, or bitterboy),
but Really can you Help me out and Enlighten me as to my Origins , or rather yours, cause I do not think We come from the same ???? tree???, Bang???.
Let Me Know, As I will try to Fall for it, only if it is not to far fetched, and My God wasn’t stoned when I was ??? made??/ Is There another Me somewhare/ and can I see Him??

I am sure you will give me thew answers, and I thank you in advance.

P.S.See If you can Re- Quote This Quote, Exactly
It is not what goes in a person that defiles them, rather it is what comes out of our mouths that defile us,

Bill,
i love this List

—-Original Message Follows—-
From: jon <jon@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:04:38 -0400
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proof? really?

i mean, come on…. i can buy the “i just have faith” argument. if someone believes something, that’s their right, whether they can make a logical argument for their belief or not.

but don’t try to make like there is some logical argument to prove the existence of god.

to be a bit on the blunt side, that’s just bullshit. what is this proof of god you say we’ve acquired in the past century, that only you seem to know about? there’s a pretty substantial body of evidence that explains where we came from without having to invoke supernatural powers. while, on the other hand, there isn’t a shred of evidence to the contrary.

and, unless you’re reading posts of his that i’m not, i don’t see what makes you think crooked eye is a hateful, selfish person. i mean, he may very well be that in real life, i’ve no idea…ehe.. but he doesn’t give the impression so from his posts, which tend to be level-headed and thoughtful.

Well Crooked, I still believe and the PROOF is there, where have you got your diinformation from- I could only guess – Do you Subscribe to the Self Bible? The If It Feels Good Do It Bible?
Well I Love You and I care for You, Can you find it in your heart to unconditionally care for every other human being? Even if they rub you the wrong way? If the answer is Yes, then you have had God in fluence your life, If No,Well then ???? There is still Time as long as you are breathing, But remember that PRIDE always comes before destruction, Please try to be Humble and do not stomp All over My words with Slander and Caurse Launguage, because it will only proove that Because We Alll have FREE will We open our Mouths and prove we are idiots.

try and Not Be offended, But To remember, that if we did not come from God then what is your answer, and as for proof. where have you been this last century?

Bill,
Still hurting, But always trying to Love,
Why, Cause I believe that thing you call stupid, that says LOVE WILL And Does Conquer Everything. PERIOD

But as for me , if the Bible says it I BELIEVE IT. PERIOD.

uh huh, and the earth was created in 7 days and woman made from mans rib.. LMAO
That evolution nonsense couldn’t possibly be the way things happened, seein as
that’s what the evidence suggests.. May as well believe in unicorns, elves,
santa claus, the easter bunny, and any other mythical being you can imagine…
Who needs proof when you have the Bible? I mean, if so many people believe it,
it must be true, right? I just don’t understand how people are suckered into
believing all these grandiose stories.. Where have you ever seen any evidence
that the Bible is true? Did you see Jesus in your toast or the virgin Mary in
some woodgrains? I could go on forever about all the utter bullshit in the Bible,
but it’s obvious that by the statement quoted above, that it wouldn’t matter if it said
cut off your genitals paste em to your forehead and dance around until you bled to
death, because “the bible” said so.. Plenty of things in the bible that would seem
atrocious by todays standards, but alas, the Bible is easy to bend to conform to your
desires… That’s why so many branches of Christianity exist.. It’s all about what
set of beliefs you want to conform to.. If these things were fact, why would you
need so many different sects? What makes Christianity the “right” way? I mean what
makes Jesus more believable, than Mohammed or Buddha? How did you come to be a
Christian? Were you just taught that as a child and it stuck? What if you were an
Indian child, would you be Hindu, just because? I don’t honestly care what religion
you choose, but I think you should do a bit more thinking for yourself.. Start taking
responsibilty for yourself, stop believing ghost stories, and take control of your life.
You might be amazed at the power you have with a new set of beliefs…
You create your own reality…

captkirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> wrote: ARRGHHH GIBBER GIBBER TWITCH TWITCH GIBBER GIBBER DROOL
ARRGHHHHHHHHH EYE TWITCH GRRRARGHHHHHHHFUK
READ ANOTHER BOOK THERE ARE OTHERS.

———————————
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From: “Paul Brookshaw” <jiggy9@hotmail.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Get Things Straight (I Believe)
Date: April 30, 2006 at 2:07:23 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Corrected I believe lolol Ieeeeeeeeeeeaahaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha :)’
Have a Great day now people,
Paul;’)~~~

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Get Things Straight (I Believe)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 20:53:10 -0500

odd, i fashion meself a typo with just a bit of soul left in meself. grasshopper
—– Original Message —– From: “captkirk” <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 5:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Get Things Straight (I Believe)

—– Original Message Follows —–
standing there at the day of reckoning, awaiting to be
counted as one. For when you see him as he sees you, then
you are him. Amen.

Heheheheeh what a great typo, the day of Re conning,
Koiky

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From: anthony spinelli <chznwun@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (now completely ot again) Re: [Ibogaine] reply to Preston, I think!!
Date: April 30, 2006 at 1:28:52 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

We each judge ourself. Because God is just, he would never judge a person: only that person truely knows why they lived the life they did.

Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com> wrote:
ditto .. ????

Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
But for those of us who have heard of god and the christian message, who still aren’t buying into the “saved/not saved, hellfire and damnation” viewpoint Callie is what I meant.
What about those, like me, who have heard but still refuse to believe?

Peace and love.
Preston
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor Underground
Editor Under the Influence
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] reply to Preston, I think!!

Preston (?) said,”I gotta just add that when I hear or read of someone saying (no offense
> intended Callie just weirded out a bit) that all it takes is faith to
> believe that there’s a lake of fire waiting anyone who doesn’t believe
> correctly, that some supreme being would actually insist on creating
> folk it already knows are never going to accept “jesus christ” as their
> personal savior and therefore are already doomed ”

I just have to reply to this cause I don’t think I made myself clear. My personal belief is that God will judge us on what we have been exposed to. I do not think he will condemn someone who has never heard about Christ and Christianity. I do not think God cares whether we call him Buddah, Allah, God, Christ……they are all him in his eyes. I do not think God cares whether you are Protestant, Jew, Islamic, Christian or any other title , as long as you have aknowledge your ‘title’ and live according to the guidelines or ‘rules’ of your faith.
I think if there is a secluded island where the people have no knowledge except what is around them and maybe their God is fire….that is okay with God as long as they practice their beliefs and faith.
So, no one is doomed! We will all be judged according to what we are, what we have been exposed to and how we have lived according to our belif system. God knows who and what each of us are. No one will be treated unjustly.
Callie

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (where’s the clown…errr. ot I mean) Re: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You
Date: April 29, 2006 at 8:18:14 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

what a great link, thanks Ekki.

—– Original Message —– From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You

actually there a numerous prooves for the existence of god. anselm from
canterbury´s may be the most well known in the tradition of platonic
philosophy and has a certain beauty and elegance in it.

anyway here is a list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God
they all kind of bite themselves in their tail however.

i´d say to prove existence of god, heaven and hell is not necessary.
but can you see them right now, in this very moment? if not, then you
are already in hell 😉

Am 29.04.2006 um 18:35 schrieb Preston Peet:

(From the excerpt below): ‘I refuse to prove I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’

Jon wrote in his usual relatively clear headed way >but don’t try to make like there is some logical argument to prove the existence of god.<

To even utter the word “proof” when talking about god completely moots the whole “faith” thing to begin with.
I.E.:

http://www.earthstar.co.uk/babel.htm

Babel Fish
The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absords all unconcious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them.
The pratical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The arguement goes something like this: ‘I refuse to prove I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’
‘But,’ says Man, ‘the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguements, you don’t. QED.’
‘Oh dear,’ says God, ‘I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
‘Oh, that was easy,’ says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this arguement is a load of dingo’s kidneys, but that didn’t stop Oolan Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God.
Meanwhile the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

—– Original Message —– From: “jon” <jon@mindvox.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You

proof? really?

i mean, come on…. i can buy the “i just have faith” argument. if someone believes something, that’s their right, whether they can make a logical argument for their belief or not.

but don’t try to make like there is some logical argument to prove the existence of god.

to be a bit on the blunt side, that’s just bullshit. what is this proof of god you say we’ve acquired in the past century, that only you seem to know about? there’s a pretty substantial body of evidence that explains where we came from without having to invoke supernatural powers. while, on the other hand, there isn’t a shred of evidence to the contrary.

and, unless you’re reading posts of his that i’m not, i don’t see what makes you think crooked eye is a hateful, selfish person. i mean, he may very well be that in real life, i’ve no idea…ehe.. but he doesn’t give the impression so from his posts, which tend to be level-headed and thoughtful.

Well Crooked, I still believe and the PROOF is there, where have you got your diinformation from- I could only guess – Do you Subscribe to the Self Bible? The If It Feels Good Do It Bible?
Well I Love You and I care for You, Can you find it in your heart to unconditionally care for every other human being? Even if they rub you the wrong way? If the answer is Yes, then you have had God in fluence your life, If No,Well then ???? There is still Time as long as you are breathing, But remember that PRIDE always comes before destruction, Please try to be Humble and do not stomp All over My words with Slander and Caurse Launguage, because it will only proove that Because We Alll have FREE will We open our Mouths and prove we are idiots.

try and Not Be offended, But To remember, that if we did not come from God then what is your answer, and as for proof. where have you been this last century?

Bill,
Still hurting, But always trying to Love,
Why, Cause I believe that thing you call stupid, that says LOVE WILL And Does Conquer Everything. PERIOD

—-Original Message Follows—-
From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] correction
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
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But as for me , if the Bible says it I BELIEVE IT. PERIOD.

uh huh, and the earth was created in 7 days and woman made from mans rib.. LMAO
That evolution nonsense couldn’t possibly be the way things happened, seein as
that’s what the evidence suggests.. May as well believe in unicorns, elves,
santa claus, the easter bunny, and any other mythical being you can imagine…
Who needs proof when you have the Bible? I mean, if so many people believe it,
it must be true, right? I just don’t understand how people are suckered into
believing all these grandiose stories.. Where have you ever seen any evidence
that the Bible is true? Did you see Jesus in your toast or the virgin Mary in
some woodgrains? I could go on forever about all the utter bullshit in the Bible,
but it’s obvious that by the statement quoted above, that it wouldn’t matter if it said
cut off your genitals paste em to your forehead and dance around until you bled to
death, because “the bible” said so.. Plenty of things in the bible that would seem
atrocious by todays standards, but alas, the Bible is easy to bend to conform to your
desires… That’s why so many branches of Christianity exist.. It’s all about what
set of beliefs you want to conform to.. If these things were fact, why would you
need so many different sects? What makes Christianity the “right” way? I mean what
makes Jesus more believable, than Mohammed or Buddha? How did you come to be a
Christian? Were you just taught that as a child and it stuck? What if you were an
Indian child, would you be Hindu, just because? I don’t honestly care what religion
you choose, but I think you should do a bit more thinking for yourself.. Start taking
responsibilty for yourself, stop believing ghost stories, and take control of your life.
You might be amazed at the power you have with a new set of beliefs…
You create your own reality…

captkirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz> wrote: ARRGHHH GIBBER GIBBER TWITCH TWITCH GIBBER GIBBER DROOL
ARRGHHHHHHHHH EYE TWITCH GRRRARGHHHHHHHFUK
READ ANOTHER BOOK THERE ARE OTHERS.

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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (now completely ot again) Re: [Ibogaine] reply to Preston, I think!!
Date: April 29, 2006 at 10:30:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ditto .. ????

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You
Date: April 29, 2006 at 10:28:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The only reason I’d shit myself, is because I’d be so friggin blown away that he existed.. About the same as if I saw bigfoot or a leprechaun. I am perfectly happy about my life and the decisions I make..

I am not afraid of God or the set of beliefs set forth by any christian or any religion for that matter. I make decisions based on logic and what I feel is right, not because I am afraid of some big man in the sky, waiting to banish me to life of burning if I don’t marry the girl I screw, or I don’t believe all the other nonsensical crap spewed in the bible or other religious works..

I don’t hate you or anyone for their beliefs, but that’s more than I can say for the practioners of many faiths.. I say to each his own, but I get preterbed when people site the scriptures or state how things are a certain way because they read it in a religious book, where there is no proof or explicit proof against the aforementioned text..

As stated in other mails here, the very word faith means to believe in something there is no real proof of.. Some say it’s faith, others call it absurd.. I am of the latter.. The things I know to be true, can be proven, the things I know that are false, can be disproven.. God, while he can’t be proven, also, cannot be disproven, therfore I don’t accept what some book says, nor do I accept another book.. I feel by doing what I feel is right, I can live a happier life, who cares what happens when I die, as I am pretty sure it’s not an eternal heaven/hell scenario..

I believe those scenarios are used by man, to scare other men into believing or acting the way they want them to.. Therefore I am pretty anti-religion.. I think you are all decent folks, deep down, but I don’t think your beliefs are necessarily the most accurate..

Anyone who says they believe it cause the bible says it, just scares me.. The bible can be interpreted in many fashions, like the way the KKK use it, or the way the anti-gay folks use it, or the way anyone uses it to talk bad about another.. The Koran actually says that anyone who doesn’t follow mohammed should be killed.. I mean, where do we draw the line with religious fanatcism? Many bible thumpers are just dynamite away from being terrorists, and it’s almost justified by much of middle america, because “the bible says so”, and it’s the prevalent religion of our society..

I say believe what you wish, but don’t expect me to agree because you have a big book of fairytales.. And don’t call me ignorant or think I am not very well read, because I don’t agree with your beliefs.. I never once called you a frog or a reptile… I never called you a delusional ignoramous, because you believe in something you cannot see, hear, smell, touch, or show to anyone else.. I never called you a sheep for following probably the most common religion in the world.. I merely questioned what makes you follow it blindly, and I have yet to receive a single answer that would make me change my views, or even question them..

As for Billy J, you can sit and talk about me like I am ignorant, with arguments of no substance or real meaning.. I have yet to reveal any hateful language in my questions of your religion, which is more than I can say for your assault on my simple question of blind faith…

I actually have a life filled with joy and happiness, and I don’t follow your God.. I’m sorry if I don’t suffer a pain filled life, with loathe for people who don’t believe the way I do.. I am actually one of the happiest, most generous people you could ever meet in person.. I have many people that I care for and very good friends who would do the same.. I am on the list because I was helped by the Iboga and my desire to change, as well as the provider Sara, to whom I extend much gratitude.. I am sure she could tell you I am a very kind person, and have a lot of compassion..

My fault with most organized religions, stems from the exact attitude displayed by most of the religious people on this list.. Instead of explaining what really makes you follow your faith of choice, I am looked down upon for not following your way, with pity, anger, or hate.. So rather than join a hate group, run by the Man, usually with a drive for money and/or power, I subscribe to my own set of beliefs, wherein I am either God or everything is God, or God is just a word for the unexplainable.. I will not say that there is nothing greater than my simple consciousness, however, I am vehemently against any of these silly stories presented by most religions.. AND, I’ll tell ya what, my life ROCKS!!!

Am I so wrong?

Paul Brookshaw <jiggy9@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Hey Crooked eye, BRRRRRRRRRRRR AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH UGGGGGGGGGGGGG UGGGGGGGGGGG
IEEEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHHHAAAAAAA HA AHA AHA AHA AHA AHA AHA AHA AHA AHA AHA AAHA
AHA AANA HA HA AHA AHA AH HA HA HA HA HA AHA AH HA HA.
you MUST BE A frog OR SOME SUCH LIKE REPTILE MY FRIEND.
There are plenty of books of Wisdom, that you could get your self
enlightenment from.
Just cos others believe in themselves and God doesn’t mean that God does not
exist.
Crooked eye, I bet you would be the first to crap yourself, like most non
believers, if Christ was to stand before you and ask you to account for your
life.
The point of Man writing such Wisdom is so that others may have a tangible
thing to grasp, in Spirit, so that he may learn to accept the crap in his
life.
Firstly, we are no strangers to pain. We where born in a physical body, for
starters. If God made it that way we should accept that we are just dust in
the eyes of the Almighty.
We should just learn to give and receive love.
I love you, crooked eye, like I love all of Mankind, good and bad. For that
is the real reason of why we are here, and what we should be doing with our
lives.
I pray that you fill your heart and life full of the love, life given, not
taken, but given to you freely to enjoy as you will.
Have a Great and Sunny day my
friends.

Heart felt love and compassion to all.

Love Paul;’)~~~

>From: “Billy J”
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You
>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:43:10 -0400
>
>Hey, I guess Crooked eye didn’t come from anywhere, It took a lot of
>practice to be able to get as far out there as your message below. It would
>only appear that you , on top of the obvious(why we are on this List) that
>You Have a Great deal of hate and that anything like the Words of God that
>May and wil deliver you from All the Lies that you have been Brainwashed
>into believing(hence that Your own Highness would be Greater than anything
>else Lol.)
>
> Well Crooked, I still believe and the PROOF is there, where have you
>got your diinformation from- I could only guess – Do you Subscribe to the
>Self Bible? The If It Feels Good Do It Bible?
>Well I Love You and I care for You, Can you find it in your heart to
>unconditionally care for every other human being? Even if they rub you the
>wrong way? If the answer is Yes, then you have had God in fluence your
>life, If No,Well then ???? There is still Time as long as you are
>breathing, But remember that PRIDE always comes before destruction, Please
>try to be Humble and do not stomp All over My words with Slander and Caurse
>Launguage, because it will only proove that Because We Alll have FREE will
>We open our Mouths and prove we are idiots.
>
>try and Not Be offended, But To remember, that if we did not come from God
>then what is your answer, and as for proof. where have you been this last
>century?
>
>Bill,
>Still hurting, But always trying to Love,
>Why, Cause I believe that thing you call stupid, that says LOVE WILL And
>Does Conquer Everything. PERIOD
>
>—-Original Message Follows—-
>From: Crooked Eye
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] correction
>Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
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>
>But as for me , if the Bible says it I BELIEVE IT. PERIOD.
>
>uh huh, and the earth was created in 7 days and woman made from mans rib..
>LMAO
>That evolution nonsense couldn’t possibly be the way things happened, seein
>as
>that’s what the evidence suggests.. May as well believe in unicorns,
>elves,
>santa claus, the easter bunny, and any other mythical being you can
>imagine…
>Who needs proof when you have the Bible? I mean, if so many people believe
>it,
>it must be true, right? I just don’t understand how people are suckered
>into
>believing all these grandiose stories.. Where have you ever seen any
>evidence
> that the Bible is true? Did you see Jesus in your toast or the virgin
>Mary in
>some woodgrains? I could go on forever about all the utter bullshit in the
>Bible,
>but it’s obvious that by the statement quoted above, that it wouldn’t
>matter if it said
>cut off your genitals paste em to your forehead and dance around until you
>bled to
>death, because “the bible” said so.. Plenty of things in the bible that
>would seem
>atrocious by todays standards, but alas, the Bible is easy to bend to
>conform to your
>desires… That’s why so many branches of Christianity exist.. It’s all
>about what
>set of beliefs you want to conform to.. If these things were fact, why
>would you
>need so many different sects? What makes Christianity the “right” way? I
>mean what
>makes Jesus more believable, than Mohammed or Buddha? How did you come to
>be a
>Christian? Were you just taught that as a child and it stuck? What if you
>were an
>Indian child, would you be Hindu, just because? I don’t honestly care what
>religion
>you choose, but I think you should do a bit more thinking for yourself..
>Start taking
>responsibilty for yourself, stop believing ghost stories, and take control
>of your life.
>You might be amazed at the power you have with a new set of beliefs…
>You create your own reality…
>
>
>
>captkirk wrote: ARRGHHH GIBBER GIBBER TWITCH TWITCH
>GIBBER GIBBER DROOL
>ARRGHHHHHHHHH EYE TWITCH GRRRARGHHHHHHHFUK
>READ ANOTHER BOOK THERE ARE OTHERS.
>
>
>—– Original Message Follows —–
> > Hello there, on my way tom work ‘Yuk’ but must pay my
> > dues.(I actually enjoy work mostly).
> >
> > Hey Dana, and all who have anything to say about Jesus,
> > You can all say what you want about Jesus I guess (free
> > will and all) But as for me , if the Bible says it I
> > BELIEVE IT. PERIOD. If Jesus needed any Help He would have
> > just called upon His Own Legion of Angles, that where
> > always at His comand, But Scripture had to be fulfilled,
> > and as for Me, YES if I was at Gogatha and had the chance
> > to help My Lord YES I would give Him watever I could to
> > ease His Pain, But Then Scripture would not have been
> > fulfilled and I would have interupted history, and Christ
> > would have not been The Christ If Someone was to be able
> > to interfere, Wasn’t possible, yet it is a nice story for
> > US to think that as mere Humans WE could have a part with
> > God. Just acceptr Jesus as Lord and Savior and You Too
> > Will be Saved.
> >
> > Love and Smiles all day
> > Bill ,
> >
> > P.S. I Recieved My DVD Yesterday of the RITE TO PASSAGE,
> > will be watching it tonight.
> > Please Ye All Have a Great Straight Day (If Possible)
> >
> > —-Original Message Follows—-
> > From: Dana Beal
> > Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: [Ibogaine] correction
> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:13:22 -0400
> > MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2)
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> > hits=-0.4 required=4.0 X-Antivirus-MYDOMAIN-Mail-From:
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> > FILETIME=[85A1BAA0:01C66965]
> >
> > I meant to write:
> >
> > And Billy, if you could be at Golgotha, and hold up a
> > sponge with to His lips with a white vinegar extraction
> > of harmala and iboga on it to ease His suffering, would
> > there be any hesitation, any doubt as to what you would
> > do?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=——————————————————-
> > ————–=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> >
> > )=——————————————————-
> > ————–=[/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > /]=——————————————————-
> > ————–=[\
> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> >
> > )=——————————————————-
> > ————–=[/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>/]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
>[%]
>
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>———————————
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (now completely ot again) Re: [Ibogaine] reply to Preston, I think!!
Date: April 29, 2006 at 8:07:27 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

But for those of us who have heard of god and the christian message, who still aren’t buying into the “saved/not saved, hellfire and damnation” viewpoint Callie is what I meant.
What about those, like me, who have heard but still refuse to believe?

From: “grasshopper” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You(whatever makes you feel good)
Date: April 29, 2006 at 9:58:59 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

could resolve this whole thing, gh
—– Original Message —– From: “ekki” <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feel Sorry 4 You